{"head":{"counts":{"debateCount":10000,"resultCount":10000}},"results":[{"debateRecord":{"house":{"showAs":"27th Seanad","committeeCode":"","houseCode":"seanad","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/house\/seanad\/27","chamberType":"house","houseNo":"27"},"chamber":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/def\/house\/seanad","showAs":"Seanad \u00c9ireann"},"lastUpdated":"2026-06-23T17:53:20+00:00","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-23\/debate\/main","formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-23\/debate\/mul@\/main.xml"},"pdf":null},"date":"2026-06-23","counts":{"contributorCount":44,"divisionCount":1,"debateSectionCount":9,"questionCount":0,"billCount":1},"debateType":"debate","debateSections":[{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-23\/debate\/dbsect_2","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Gn\u00f3 an tSeanaid - Business of Seanad","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  The Cathaoirleach has received notice from the following Senators that they propose to raise the following matters:  Senator Sharon Keogan - The need for the Minister for Social Protection to make a statement on a universal system where all taxable Department of Social Protection payments are automatically reported to the Revenue Commissioners.  Senator Fiona O'Loughlin - The need for the Minister for Defence to provide an update on the management of the Curragh Plains, County Kildare, including the prohibition on illegal encampments on these lands.  Senator Robbie Gallagher - The need for the Minister for Transport to make a statement on waiving road tax for Blood Bikes and vehicles used exclusively for the transport of cancer patients.  Senator Cathal Byrne - The need for the Minister for Education and Youth to make a statement on delays in accrediting PE teachers who secured qualifications from a university outside Ireland and have completed qualified teacher status.  Senator Nessa Cosgrove - The need for the Minister for Education and Youth to provide an update on the delivery of the pay deal for resource persons and adult educators working in community training centres.  Senator Mark Duffy - The need for the Minister for Justice, Home Affairs and Migration to make a statement on the introduction of a scheme similar to the immigrant investor programme to allow access to overseas funding.  Senator Mike Kennelly - The need for the Minister for Enterprise, Tourism and Employment to make a statement on the recent proposals made by the Vintners Federation of Ireland, VFI, in its pre-budget submissions.  The matters raised by the Senators are suitable for discussion and the Cathaoirleach has selected Senators Sharon Keogan, Fiona O'Loughlin, Robbie Gallagher and Cathal Byrne and they will be taken now.  The other Senators may give notice on another day of the matters that they wish to raise. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Gn\u00f3 an tSeanaid - Business of Seanad"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-23\/debate\/dbsect_3","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":false,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-23\/debate\/dbsect_4","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Social Welfare Payments","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-23\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_4","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sharon Keogan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  I welcome the Minister, Deputy Dara Calleary, to the House. I thank him for coming here today. I call Senator Keogan. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sharon Keogan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Sharon Keogan  I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach. It is great to see the Minister here. I wish to raise a matter that, while it may appear technical on the surface, has very real consequences for ordinary people.  I call on the Minister to make a statement on the need to move towards a more universal system where all taxable Department of Social Protection payments are automatically reported to the Revenue Commissioners. At present, our system is inconsistent. Many Department of Social Protection payments are already reported to Revenue in real time. The State pension, jobseeker's benefit, maternity benefit, and one-parent family payment are integrated into the PAYE system, allowing tax to be collected during the year in a relatively smooth and predictable way. However, that is not the full picture. There remains a category of taxable Department of Social Protection payments, often older and more specialised schemes, where this integration has not taken place. The following payments are not automatically reported: the bereaved partner's pension, the blind pension, the death benefit, the deserted wife's allowance, the deserted wife's benefit, and the disablement payment. Instead, we rely on individual receipts to declare them manually.  The consequences of this are very real. Imagine a person who has worked all his or her life and is now in receipt of a modest pension alongside a smaller welfare payment, or think of someone's grandmother who receives one of these legacy supports. These people are not tax experts. They reasonably assume that if the State is paying them an income, the tax due is being handled, but then, at the end of the year, without warning, they receive a tax bill. It is not because they did anything wrong but because the system relied on them to know something that would not be obvious to most people, namely, that their particular payments were not reported automatically. That creates stress and confusion. It undermines confidence in the system. It is especially frustrating because it is entirely avoidable.  There is a further dimension to this. Since many of these payments are older legacy schemes, they are, by definition, more likely to affect older and more vulnerable citizens. They are the people least equipped to navigate a complex tax system and they are the ones most exposed to its gaps, which brings me to the central point. This is the modern digital age. We have a PAYE system that operates in real time across the vast majority of incomes. Public bodies share data seamlessly. The State already has the mechanism in place, as shown by the many Department of Social Protection payments that are already integrated. Why are we not joining the dots? I have to say \"Well done\" to the Government for adding the carer's benefit and allowance to the automatic reporting system, but it is a bit shocking that this was only done this year. That should not be the case.  If the State makes a payment and it is taxable, then it should follow, as a basic principle, that it is automatically reported to the Revenue. That should be the default systematic assumption, not something that depends on the type of scheme or when it was introduced. Instead, what we have is a patchwork system. Payments have been added here and there over time, often in response to issues as they arose, rather than designed from the outset as part of a coherent whole.  To be fair, let us focus on the positives. Ireland overall has very good tax systems compared with many other countries. It is efficient, relatively simple, and operates in real time. The Revenue Commissioners are probably the best arm of the State. It is precisely because of that strength that we should be aiming higher. Where gaps exist, particularly gaps that affect ordinary people in their day-to-day lives, we should be closing them, and this is one of those gaps. Accordingly, I am asking the Minister to set out whether the Government intends to move to a universal model of automatic reporting on all taxable Department of Social Protection payments, and if not, to explain why a reform that is so practical, achievable and necessary has not yet been implemented, or if it will maybe make all these payments tax-exempt. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Social Protection (Deputy Dara Calleary)  Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an Seanad\u00f3ir Keogan as ucht an t-\u00e1bhar seo a ard\u00fa. As the Senator has intimated, it is important to note that individuals are responsible for reporting their income to the Revenue Commissioners. For any Department of Social Protection payment that is taxable, the decision letters clearly state, when the payment is awarded, whether this information is shared with Revenue or whether the customer needs to notify Revenue themselves. It is a general principle of taxation that, in the absence of a specific exemption, all income, from whatever source, is income for tax purposes and this includes amounts paid to an individual by the Department of Social Protection. Responsibility for taxation policy, including the tax treatment of social welfare payments, rests with the Minister for Finance and is administered by the Revenue Commissioners. All payments from the Department of Social Protection are considered taxable unless specifically exempted from income tax.  The legislation governing the taxation of social welfare payments is in sections 19 and 126 of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997, which was amended in 2018 to clarify which payments are exempt from the charge to tax. It should be noted that these payments are subject to income tax but exempt from the universal social charge and PRSI.  In order that Revenue can ensure that the right amount of income tax is collected in a timely manner, my Department reports details of these taxable payments to it on an ongoing basis. There are currently 20 scheme types on the taxable payments report, with nearly 1 million customers, including those in receipt of State contributory and non-contributory pension, illness benefit and invalidity pension payments.  There are a few very small schemes, with only approximately 18,000 customers in total, that are not yet included in the report. My Department exchanges the taxable payments report with the Revenue Commissioners each week, giving details of the customers. Such data exchanges between the Department and Revenue are permitted under the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005.  Where a person also has an additional source of employment, occupation or pension income, the mechanism used to collect tax due involves reducing the person\u2019s annual tax credits and rate band by the annual amount of their social welfare income. This ensures that the Department of Social Protection payment is paid gross to the recipient, while the salary or pension paid by the employer would have any tax due on both the social welfare payment and the employment deducted from it.  Senior officials in my Department engage regularly with Revenue by means of a joint high-level group that meets to discuss matters of mutual interest. The group is currently in discussions about including those last few taxable social welfare schemes on the taxable payments report.  I endorse the Senator\u2019s remarks on the Revenue Commissioners and their work. I thank her for raising this issue. I will continue to keep in touch with her on it as we progress towards sharing the information. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sharon Keogan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Sharon Keogan  I thank the Minister for engaging with me on this issue. He stated that only 18,000 are affected, but informing people is not the same as designing a system that works for them. The system should not depend on whether a citizen happens to understand the technical distinction between reported and non-reported payments. Where the State can take care of this issue, it should. It is as simple as that.  These payments are complex, and the complexity is being pushed onto the citizen, which is neither acceptable nor efficient. A burden of complex administration is being taken from the Civil Service, which is best able to handle it, and put onto the citizen, who is less equipped to understand the matter. That will only result in more time and resources being spent on correcting errors. We all know that when we owe the Revenue Commissioners, be it in life or in death, the payment is taken. Maybe the Minister could take my remarks on board and maybe we could have a complete tax exemption that includes carers. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  Tax exemptions are a matter for the Minister for Finance, but I assure the Senator that we want to ensure our payments, which are a lifeline to so many, do not lead to a build-up of tax liability. I absolutely want to avoid a situation of surprise or anxiety. I am totally with the Senator on that. That is why we share the data in relation to taxable social welfare payments. We share it on a weekly basis to allow the tax to be deducted throughout the year rather than at the end. I have gone through the method. I assure the Senator that the decision letters that are issued to customers state clearly whether they need to notify Revenue or whether we include the data in the taxable payments report.  There are about 18,000 customers on six schemes that are not included in the weekly taxable payments report. We are working towards including them. I assure the Senator, and I want to emphasise, that I do not want a situation where customers of the Department of Social Protection end up with a build-up of tax liabilities. We are working towards addressing this. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Social Welfare Payments"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-23\/debate\/dbsect_5","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Departmental Properties","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-23\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_5","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fiona O'Loughlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  The Minister of State is welcome. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fiona O'Loughlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Fiona O'Loughlin  I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Troy, for coming to the House - in fairness, he is always ready to step up and serve in whatever way he can - but I am disappointed the Minister for Defence is not taking this Commencement matter. I have tabled a number of Commencement matters about the Curragh over the past year and the Minister has never come in to take any of them. I had the opportunity to speak to her briefly about it, as well as communicating via numerous emails.  The situation in the Curragh is absolutely appalling. In recent years I have flagged, as have many others, the illegal encampments that come to the Curragh. Year after year I get the same emails from the same people and I am embarrassed and frustrated that I have to go back without any real answer about what is happening with the Curragh. The latest instalment of the encampment is between 80 and 100 caravans. There is a big tent like a circus tent in the middle of the Curragh. There are portaloos. The rubbish, as Minister of State will be able to imagine, with that number of people there illegally, is mounting up. Bear in mind that approximately two months ago, \u20ac180,000 of taxpayers' money was spent on removing the rubble that was there. One of the greens in Cill Dara Golf Club has been damaged. Two of them were damaged last year.  Given that a court order has been made, I cannot understand how they are still there. Having had numerous meetings with An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, which has said it is willing to support the Department of Defence in whatever way it can, I cannot understand how they are still there. I had a meeting with the Minister, Deputy Jim O'Callaghan, recently about how the Department of justice can support the Department of Defence at this point in time.  There is a huge environmental impact. There is a severe strain on and potential degradation of the fragile Curragh ecosystem, which is hugely important. There is a huge social nuisance. There is a restriction of access for local residents who utilise the plains to exercise and rest and for recreation and there is a significant visual impact on this historic, protected landscape.  On Sunday, I was at the induction of Jim Kavanagh into the Irish Derby Festival Hall of Fame. Jim is the former chief executive of the Irish Racehorse Trainers Association. He is a passionate advocate for the Curragh. He is a real racing historian and curator and has put together a wonderful museum of racing legends. Sadly, he had to devote most of his speech to what is happening in the Curragh. The Curragh is internationally recognised for its thoroughbred industry. There is a real concern among the many trainers based around it about bringing their horses out; about rubbish being there that could damage the horses; and about animals, including dogs and horses, being mistreated. Of course there is always concern about contagious diseases.  I hope the Minister of State has some type of reply for me because we need to have long-term preventative measures and we need the current issues to be remedied as soon as possible. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Finance (Deputy Robert Troy)  I thank the Senator for raising this matter. I acknowledge her continual and strong advocacy on this issue, not only in the past few weeks, but months and years.  It is regrettable that the Minister cannot be here today as she is caught up with preparations for the EU Presidency, but she sends her apologies. I will read the response given and hopefully it does address some of the Senator's concerns. If not, we will see how we can take it from there in the follow-up section.  Already this year, the Curragh has seen several different illegal encampments, including one containing approximately 100 caravans, which the Senator alluded to. This has caused a great deal of disruption and anxiety to local stakeholders. The Department of Defence does not accept that those occupying these encampments have any right to reside on the Curragh Plains and as such has been engaged regularly with the Chief State Solicitor's Office, CSSO, to ensure that all legal steps are taken promptly to protect the plains.  In April, the Department initiated proceedings for relief for trespass in the High Court and in the preceding months a number of other parties were served with notices and added to the proceedings before the court. On 5 June 2026, Mr. Justice Jordan granted an interim court order against 35 named individuals and other persons unknown in the occupation on the Curragh. These orders were served on those occupants by bailiffs on the evening of Monday, 8 June 2026, with orders to vacate. Interlocutory orders were served on the occupants of the large encampment on the evening of Friday, 12 June 2026. Further notices to quit were delivered to the encampment on Saturday, 20 June 2026.  In terms of addressing these challenges in the longer term, the Department of Defence is working to ensure that we move to a modern and sustainable regulatory model in managing this historically important landscape. In collaboration with Kildare County Council, the Curragh consultancy project was published in 2024, which identified the need for a review of the Curragh by-laws and the Curragh of Kildare Act, as well as potential amendments to provide effective solutions to challenges faced. The report also identified the need to consider a dedicated agency responsible for the Curragh or to assign responsibility for the site to an existing agency with the necessary expertise to maximise the potential of the plains.  The Government is committed to the implementation of these recommendations to address both the opportunities and challenges, as can be seen by its inclusion in the programme for Government. To this end, Department officials are continuing to engage with the National Parks and Wildlife Service, NPWS, which has undertaken an initial scoping of the likely requirements.  I am informed that officials from the Department's property management branch met officials from the NPWS on Wednesday last, 17 June 2026, at the Curragh and undertook a tour of the plains. I am informed that this was a very positive engagement and that the appropriate next steps will be identified in the near future.  I thank the Senator again for raising this matter and would like to assure her on behalf of the Minister that it is her intention to ensure that the Curragh Plains, as an important element of our shared heritage, is protected into the future, while also ensuring maximum benefit to the local population, as well as to those who come to visit the area. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fiona O'Loughlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Fiona O'Loughlin  I certainly welcome the continued engagement with the National Parks and Wildlife Service, which has undertaken an initial scoping and I believe this is the way forward. I am also pleased to hear that there was a meeting between the Department of Defence and the National Parks and Wildlife Service on Wednesday last and the fact that it was positive. This cannot come soon enough. My strong message coming back from here is that those appropriate next steps will not only be identified but will be implemented. It is of absolute urgency that this is seen and taken as a priority.  In terms of the existing encampment that is there - and I thank the Minister of State for providing the chronological order in terms of the dates with the Courts Service - given those dates and the action that has been taken, which is clear, I cannot understand why the encampments are still there. Something is breaking down somewhere. As I said, I met the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, and he was very clear that the Department would do what it could. The garda\u00ed in Newbridge and Kildare are excellent in my dealings with them. Something is breaking down somewhere and we need this resolved. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Robert Troy  There is a very strong commitment to ensuring that we have a modern and sustainable regulatory model in place to manage the historically important landscape that is the Curragh. As the Senator acknowledged, there is a conservation plan in place and there are recommendations that put in place the foundation for the future management of the plains. Progress is happening. The difficulty is, whenever anything is identified, we are all very keen to ensure that it is implemented in a timely fashion. The Government is judged not just on identifying what the solutions are for a particular challenge - the challenge in the Curragh being what the Senator has identified - but its implementation of recommendations in a timely fashion. The Senator has made that point very clearly. I give an undertaking that I will relay to the Minister for Defence that it is all very well identifying the recommendations, but their implementation is key and what is expected by the wider community affected by the issue. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Departmental Properties"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-23\/debate\/dbsect_6","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Tax Exemptions","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-23\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_6","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robbie Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robbie Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Robbie Gallagher  The Minister of State is very welcome to the House this afternoon and I thank him for being here. The Crocus Cancer Support Centre in Monaghan is our local cancer support group and operates two free volunteer-driven vehicles, known as the \"Crocus cruisers\", to exclusively transport local cancer patients to and from their hospital appointments. Last year, it was delighted to receive \u20ac37,000 from the Department of Transport, which enabled it to purchase that second vehicle. The service removes travel-related stress and is entirely free for the membership. The Crocus peer support group helps those living with cancer diagnoses who are at different stages of their journeys with all sorts of therapies, counselling, and even the chat. The cars boost Crocus's ability to help local patents by providing transport to appointments and therapies. The volunteer drivers pick up patients either directly from their homes or from the Crocus centre in Monaghan town and transport them to hospital appointments, which are typically in Dublin and Cavan. The service is available completely free of charge to any Crocus members requiring transportation to cancer-related treatments and appointments. Vehicles used exclusively for the transport of cancer patients are typically operated by charities such as Crocus and involve volunteer drivers who transport patients to and from their appointments, and we are deeply indebted to them all. The drivers' fuel and travel-related costs are also covered by the organisation. Vehicles range from custom wheelchair accessible minibuses to standard cars, ensuring that vulnerable patients safely reach critical treatments like chemotherapy and radiotherapy without financial or geographical barriers. They provide secure, confidential, one-to-one transport for patients who may feel very vulnerable and anxious in regard to travelling at that difficult time for them. Crocus is just one of many support groups across the country that are doing this invaluable work and we are deeply indebted to them all.  Similarly, Blood Bikes provides a crucial service to hospitals, medical centres, nursing homes and GPs across Ireland by delivering and retrieving urgent medical essentials, including whole blood, plasma, fresh milk, and many other critical items. Its rapid transport solutions fulfil individual patient requirements quickly and play a vital role in life-saving efforts. Their skilled volunteers are trained to the highest standards and equipped with the best technology to ensure swift and sure delivery or pickups.  These services are vital and that is why it is such a pity that charities have to raise funds to pay for road tax on these vehicles that provide such essential services. It would not be unreasonable that these fees for road tax should be waived for these particular organisations. We are deeply indebted to these volunteers, who do such great work, and I feel that it would be a little \"Thank you\" to those organisations if the State was able to pick up the fee for road tax. I look forward to the Minister of State's response. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Robert Troy  I acknowledge and thank the Senator for raising what is an extremely important issue. At the outset, the Minister wishes to acknowledge the importance of vehicles used for the transport of cancer patients and of blood bike groups that use vehicles to rapidly transport medical and clinical items to and from healthcare facilities. This voluntary service reduces demand on alternative transport methods and plays an important role in supporting the healthcare system. On 28 April this year, the Minister granted approval of Blood Bikes Medical Transport to use the bus lane network while carrying out its service. This enables it to bypass traffic congestion and reduce transit times for collections and deliveries. That is a very positive development.  The collection of motor tax is administered by the Minister for Transport through the online motor tax system and by local authorities through motor tax offices. Motor tax is a budgetary matter and, as such, primary responsibility lies with the Minister for Finance. Therefore, consultation would be required with the Department of Finance on this subject. Current motor tax exemptions have been introduced in legislation over time and are provided for in the Finance (Excise Duties) (Vehicles) Act 1952. Motor tax exemptions are currently applied to the following vehicles: State-owned vehicles; diplomatic vehicles; vehicles exempted under the Disabled Drivers and Disabled Passengers Regulations 1994; vehicles including any cycle with an attachment for propelling it by mechanical power, not exceeding 400 kg in weight unladen adapted and used for invalids; vehicles used exclusively for the transport, whether by carriage or traction, of lifeboats and their gear, or any equipment for affording assistance towards the preservation of life and property in cases of shipwreck and distress at sea; vehicles which are used exclusively for mountain and cave rescue purposes; vehicles which are used exclusively for the transport of road construction machinery which is built in as part of such vehicle or otherwise permanently attached thereto, carries no load except articles or materials used for the purpose of the construction or repair of roads; ambulances, road rollers and fire engines; and vehicles kept by a local authority and used exclusively for the purpose of their fire brigade service.  At present, blood bikes or vehicles used exclusively for the transport of cancer patients are not subject to this exemption. Any proposal to introduce a motor tax exemption for blood bikes must be assessed in the context of the broader taxation and regulatory framework, taking account of legislative changes required, administrative arrangements and the impact on the receipts to the Exchequer in consultation with the Minister for Finance. Consideration must also be given to issues such as eligibility criteria, administrative and operational implementation, and the potential implications for other voluntary organisations that may seek similar treatment. The proposal the Senator has brought forward would require further consideration and analysis. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  Before I call the Senator, I welcome Deputy John Connolly and his guests, who are pupils and staff of Eagles Nest National School, Renvyle, County Galway. They are very welcome and I hope they enjoy their visit. I know they are near their holiday, but it is customary here to make sure they have no homework for the rest of the week. I hope they enjoy their holidays when they come at the end of the week. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robbie Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Robbie Gallagher  I thank the Minister of State for his comprehensive response. I fully appreciate that this is a matter for the Minister for Finance, but where would we in this country be without volunteers? Organisations such as the Crocus Cancer Support Centre in Monaghan and blood bikes do fantastic and invaluable work. All the work they do is done by volunteers. If the Government were to introduce a road tax exemption for those vehicles, it would be a small token of appreciation on behalf of the State for the excellent work they do. I sincerely hope the Minister for Finance will take this on board in his deliberations when he is considering his budget, which will be delivered in October this year. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Robert Troy  I am taking this matter for the Minister for Transport, but, fortunately for the Senator, I am a Minister of State in the Department of Finance and this is a matter for that Department.  The Senator makes a very valid point about where we would be as a society if we were bereft of volunteerism right across the board, be it in sport or in healthcare provision such as this.  One of the lines of the pre-prepared script that was given was on the costs associated with implementing this measure but what I would like to look at are the cost savings to the health service of this voluntary group providing the service. If we look at that and equate it with the potential costs, I would be somewhat surprised if there is not an overall saving. On that basis, I will take back what the Senator has raised to the Department of Finance and ask the officials to see whether they can quantify the number of vehicles that are in use by that service and what the cost would be, what the cost would be to the HSE if those people were not providing that service, and whether we can expand the exemptions. Honestly, though, it is not in my gift. It is for the senior Minister, in consultation at a wider Government level. However, let us first get costings in real terms for the implementation of the change but also what this valuable organisation is saving the health service.  It would be remiss of me if I did not take the opportunity to congratulate Senator Gallagher on Monaghan's win over the weekend. Unfortunately, it was at the expense of Westmeath and put us into misery after what was a fabulous year. Even though Monaghan has done that to us, I will take on board what the Senator said here today and see can we get a solution for him. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Tax Exemptions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-23\/debate\/dbsect_7","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Teaching Council of Ireland","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-23\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_7","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Cathal Byrne  I thank the Minister of State for coming to the Chamber to take this important Commencement matter.  I was recently contacted by a teacher who had returned home from Canada looking to take a job as a PE teacher. He described his situation to me. In May 2025, he completed his qualified teacher status. He applied to the Teaching Council and was told that that was a requirement.  He had previously completed a PE course - a postgraduate certificate in education and a masters in physical education with the Liverpool John Moores University, which is renowned for training PE teachers. Having completed modules in philosophy, psychology and the sociology of physical education, he sought his application from the Teaching Council to move from route 3, which is for further education and training, to route 2, which is post-primary education, where he is looking to take up employment. He had worked on a part-time basis, both in my own county of Wexford and in Dublin.  The situation is that there is no set timeline for the Teaching Council to transpose applications from route 3 to route 2. In an area where we know there is a big demand across the school sector for physical education teachers, it seems unacceptable that there is no clear guidance on how long an application can take with the Teaching Council.  In this particular case, which highlights a wider issue with the Teaching Council on delays, he was told when he did his qualification - the final qualification he requires - in May of last year that his application would be processed by the end of the year.  He contacted the council again in February and was told that the matter was being treated as urgent. At the end of April, having not received anything, he contacted the council again and was told he would receive the final decision on 16 June. He still does not have anything. It is unacceptable that he would have to wait for 13 months.  What is the current situation with the Teaching Council regarding this area? Are there any clear timelines? Will the Department of education instruct the Teaching Council to set out clear guidelines? It should also make a designated point of contact available for applicants in similar situations. There needs to be a clear line of communication with somebody. The individual in question has not received a response either accepting or rejecting is application, or even asking for more information. He has just not got any response back, which in this day and age is unacceptable. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Education and Youth (Deputy Michael Moynihan)  I thank the Senator for raising this matter. The Teaching Council is the independent regulatory body of the teaching profession in Ireland. It was established under the Teaching Council Act 2001, as amended. The council's role is to protect the public by promoting and regulating professional standards in teaching. This is carried out through the statutory registration of teachers, ensuring a highly qualified teaching profession whose members meet and uphold high standards of professional competence and conduct.  As a statutory professional standards body, the Teaching Council is required by law to properly determine and authenticate the relevant standards and qualifications of all applicants for registration. One of the ways the council guarantees and regulates standards is by ensuring that all teachers entering the profession in the Republic of Ireland have met the required standards. Ireland, like the majority of regulating countries assesses qualifications awarded outside the State for alignment with the standards which apply in the State. This is a core principle of the EU Directive 2005\/36\/EU on the recognition of professional qualifications.  The Teaching Council receives approximately 680 eligible applications annually from teachers who have qualified outside of the Republic of Ireland. The qualifications of teachers who qualified outside the State are processed in line with the EU directive and assessed to ensure they are of a comparable standard to those achieved by graduates of accredited initial teacher education programmes in the Republic of Ireland.  A person deemed to be a fully qualified teacher has completed a recognised teacher education qualification and programme of induction. A person must provide an official letter, confirming they are a fully qualified teacher, from the relevant teacher registration body or competent authority in the country of qualification. Post-primary teachers must also meet the post-primary curricular subject requirements for at least one approved curricular subject. In the case of those seeking registration as post-primary teachers in the subject of physical education, this could include, for example, diplomas or certificates in areas that are relevant to the subject being assessed and which may contribute to the overall assessment outcome. As such, applicants who have completed the same teacher education qualification may not necessarily receive the same outcome, as the holistic assessment process considers all relevant qualifications and their professional experience. This is carried out in the interests of supporting applicants to ensure that all demonstrable knowledge, skill and competence is considered.  The Teaching Council of Ireland has confirmed to my Department that, in the last 18 months, the majority of applicants who had completed a graduate diploma in physical education accredited by Liverpool John Moore\u2019s University were not successful in demonstrating that the qualification met the Teaching Council's curricular subject requirements for physical education.  Applications from outside the State are assessed on a holistic basis, taking account of all relevant qualifications held by the applicant and their professional experience. On that basis, it is not possible to state whether a qualification will meet the requirements for registration prior to the full assessment being completed. I may comment on a few more of the points the Senator raises in my closing remarks. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Cathal Byrne  I appreciate the Minister of State\u2019s coming here to speak on behalf of the Department and the Teaching Council. I recognise that each application is assessed on an individual basis.  I will supply him and the Department with the individual details of this constituent. The key point is there does not seem to be a clear timeline for a decision. I appreciate there were 680 applications from individuals who had qualified as teachers outside the State and who are looking to teach in Ireland. Will the Minister of State address the point about a clear timeline for telling an individual they have or have not been approved? The real issue is around uncertainty. Given the time of year, schools are taking on new teachers for the school year starting in late August or early September. In this case, we still have not got a response for this constituent who applied in May 2025. Clear timelines should be issued to the Teaching Council so there is certainty, notwithstanding the fact every application is different. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Moynihan  We have to ensure the Teaching Council is an independent regulatory body and that it carries out its independent registration function. Neither I nor any Department has a role in that because it has to be very much independent. By being so independent, its authority and status is upheld.  The Department has advised me the average processing time for registration of qualifications gained outside the Republic of Ireland is seven weeks from receipt of completed applications. Directive 2005\/36\/EC says it must be done within 12 weeks.  The Senator made a number of points regarding the point of contact. That is something I will take back. I will give that information back to the Teaching Council. I can pass the information on and ask that it be dealt with in a timely manner but the overriding concern is to ensure the Teaching Council is independent of the political system and Department, because it is making sure all is in order and that, at post-primary and all levels, the best qualified teachers are in schools.  The Senator mentioned an application made in May 2025. That is 13 months ago at this stage. I will try to ask if perhaps we could get the Teaching Council to directly liaise with the Senator. It would be inappropriate for it to be liaising with me. Maybe it will clarify that question and also provide a point of contact. Many teachers in primary, post-primary and special schools - and indeed special classes - have qualifications from outside the Republic of Ireland and meet the criteria. It is important because we see some great standards and excellent people who have qualified. There are some anomalies in the system as well. I will ask them to liaise directly with the Senator or his constituent. Also, a point of contact would be important for anybody making an application.  It is not possible to state whether a qualification will, of itself, meet the requirements. That is important to stress. I will endeavour to ask them to liaise directly with the Senator. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionra\u00ed ar 2.19 p.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 2.33 p.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Sitting suspended at 2.19 p.m. and resumed at 2.33 p.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Teaching Council of Ireland"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-23\/debate\/dbsect_8","debateType":"orderofBusiness","bill":null,"showAs":"An tOrd Gn\u00f3 - Order of Business","counts":{"speechCount":32,"speakerCount":24},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fiona O'Loughlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mike Kennelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mike-Kennelly.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Mike-Kennelly.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Victor Boyhan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Murphy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Conor-Murphy.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alison Comyn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gareth Scahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sharon Keogan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Duffy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Clonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","memberCode":"Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Evanne N\u00ed Chuilinn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Evanne-N\u00ed-Chuilinn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Evanne-N\u00ed-Chuilinn.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Linda Nelson Murray","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Laura Harmon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paraic Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paraic-Brady.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Paraic-Brady.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eileen Lynch","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eileen-Lynch.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Eileen-Lynch.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sarah O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aubrey McCarthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Conway","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Conway.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Martin-Conway.S.2011-05-25","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  This is quite a distinguished Order of Business because an Seanad\u00f3ir Garret Ahearn is here to officially take his first Order of Business as the new Leader of Seanad \u00c9ireann. I congratulate Garret on his appointment, not only for himself but also for his friends and family. His dad, Liam, who I met last week, and his brothers, Liam and Scott, and children, Jamie and Daniel, are here. Jamie and Daniel will be on their best behaviour today, and I think there is a promise of more ice cream too, if possible. Laura is here too, of course, and I thank her for being here. It is a great honour for Garret and for all of them because the families, friends and relations are the unsung heroes of political life. Many sacrifices are made by family members on behalf of their loved ones who are in political life. It is not an easy job. It has become less easy over the years due to online abuse. I know that our new Seanad Leader will do a great job and has done so in an acting capacity. We pay tribute to the former leader, Se\u00e1n Kyne, congratulating him again on his election to the other House. Laura, Jamie, Daniel, Liam, and the two brothers are most welcome to the Distinguished Visitors' Gallery for an Seanad\u00f3ir Garret Ahearn's first Order of Business as the official Leader of Seanad \u00c9ireann. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  I thank the Cathaoirleach, his office and the Seanad Office for their engagement over recent weeks, and the Deputy Leader, Senator O\u2019Loughlin, for her constructive encouragement and engagement throughout the process. It is a real privilege to take questions as Leader.  The Order of Business is No. 1, \u00dadar\u00e1s na Gaeltachta (Amendment) Bill 2024 - Committee and Remaining Stages, to be taken at 3.45 p.m. and to adjourn at 4.45 p.m. if not previously concluded; No. 2, Criminal Justice (Terrorist Offences) (Amendment) Bill 2025 - Second Stage, to be taken at 4.45 p.m., with the time allocated for the opening remarks of the Minister not to exceed ten minutes, group spokespersons not to exceed eight minutes each, all other Senators not to exceed five minutes each and the Minister to be given not less than ten minutes to reply to the debate; No. 3, Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na (Recording Devices) (Amendment) Bill 2025 - Report and Final Stages, to be taken on the conclusion of No. 2, and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 7.45 p.m. by putting one question from the Chair, which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Government; and No. 4, Health (Amendment) (Home Support Providers) Bill 2025 - Committee and Remaining Stages, to be taken at 8 p.m. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fiona O'Loughlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Fiona O'Loughlin  I formally congratulate Senator Ahearn on taking up his position. I had the opportunity to congratulate him on Thursday in his absence, but it is important that I do it again, particularly in the presence of Laura, Jamie, Daniel, his dad and his siblings. It is a great honour indeed for him. I have always found him to be very fair, very engaging and very receptive. He absolutely has the ability to make decisions, and that is something we all have to learn. Also, he has a great presence about him. Meeting dignitaries, ambassadors and so on is a very important part of the role. I look forward to working with him and wish him well in the time ahead.  There are a number of issues I want to raise. First, the Organisation of National Ex-Service Personnel, ONE, recently published a comprehensive study revealing that Ireland was a significant outlier in its approach to veterans policy, legislation and support services. ONE is the national veteran society and Cormac Kirwan is its hard-working chief executive. Its study had a number of key findings, particularly around the fact that 140,000 veterans of the Defence Forces were really an invisible population. A minority of them have many unaddressed issues.  Although the Government has established the Office of Veterans Affairs, more needs to be done. More action needs to be taken regarding a legal definition of the word \u201cveteran\u201d, which is not in legislation, and also regarding the commissioning of an independent evaluation of Defence Forces transition supports and the establishment of a national council of veteran associations. I would like to have a debate in the House on that.  I would also like to mention Cuan Mhuire. Before its 60th anniversary, I mentioned here that I would be attending the event. It really was very moving. I acknowledge Senator Murphy\u2019s role within Cuan Mhuire, and indeed the roles of his mother and sister. Cuan Mhuire is Ireland\u2019s largest voluntary addiction treatment provider. Sixty years after she founded the organisation, Sr. Consilio continues to do wonderful work, along with Nicola Kelly, chair Paul O\u2019Donoghue, the wonderful staff and, of course, an excellent board. However, they need increased, sustained funding and support to meet their needs. While we have to accept that funding is rising, the level of need is rising faster and treatment is more complex. I would like to have a debate on addiction and how we support those who support those who are in addiction or trying to recover.  I want to mention a great friend of mine, Teresa Harrison, who sadly passed away over the last few days. She was a legend in her own time and the most incredible volunteer you ever met \u2013 for the Community Games, the Special Olympics and the St. Patrick\u2019s Day parade, to mention but a few. Teresa was always full of fun, humour and compassion, and was always there to help and support whoever she could. Her two daughters, Pauline and Deirdre, and the wider family are obviously devastated to lose her, but her legacy will absolutely live on in her incredible volunteerism.  I was fortunate enough to spend a little time by her bedside two weeks ago. What I learned from her about how to die well as well as how to live well is really important. Ar dheis D\u00e9 go raibh a h-anam. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  We join in extending our sympathies to Pauline, Deirdre and all of the family of Teresa, one of the great activists in the Senator's community. We all know people like that, and they deserve recognition on their passing. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mike Kennelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mike-Kennelly.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Mike-Kennelly.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mike Kennelly  On his first day on duty as the Leader of the Seanad, I too congratulate Senator Ahearn on his promotion. It is also a very proud day for his family who are here today including his father, brothers Liam and Scott, Laura, and Jamie and Daniel, who are the sparkle of this guy's eyes when they are not here. We are delighted to have them here as distinguished guests.  I ask the Government to recognise the vital role that wet bars and traditional pubs play in communities across Ireland and to provide meaningful support to help them survive. For many people, especially in rural Ireland, the local pub is far more than a business. It is the heart of the community. It is where families and neighbours come together to celebrate life's milestones and to support one another through difficult times from christenings, confirmations, 21st birthdays, engagements, the afters of weddings, anniversaries and even gatherings following funerals. As the famous song goes, it is like from the cradle to the grave. It is woven into the fabric of family and community life.  I attended the audiovisual room last week where the Vintners Federation of Ireland attended to seek support. I have never seen such a large crowd of TDs and Senators. They came in to hear their stories and to support them.  These pubs are under enormous pressure. More than 2,200 pubs have closed across Ireland since 2005, and closures continue at an alarming rate. Every pub that closes not only represents a lost business but also a lost meeting place, a lost employer and a lost community asset. Publicans are facing unsustainable cost increases. Electricity costs have risen by around 70%, wages by 40% and water charges have increased significantly. While recent VAT measures have helped the establishments serving food, they offer little or no benefit to the majority of small, rural wet pubs that do not serve hot food.  The proposed on-trade sustainability scheme will work by giving pubs financial support based on the number of draft products they purchase from suppliers each year. The support will come in the form of a tax credit, thereby helping publicans offset rising costs such as electricity, wages and utilities. For example, if a small, rural pub incurred significant supply costs throughout the year, it could qualify for a tax credit worth a few euro. This credit could then be used to reduce its tax bill or, if the pub had little or no tax liability, be paid directly as a cash support, and it is support we are looking for. The scheme would be capped at \u20ac20,000 per annum per pub to ensure that support is targeted at small and medium-sized family run pubs.  The Government already recognises the importance of supporting sectors that contribute to our economy and culture and our pubs deserve the same recognition. If we value vibrant villages, like we say we do every day in here, thriving towns, rural tourism, local employment and social connection, then we must value and protect our local pubs.  Once a pub closes, it is often gone forever and a community loses a piece of its identity. I call on the Minister for Enterprise, Tourism and Employment to visit the Seanad to debate these proposals. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Victor Boyhan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Victor Boyhan  I welcome and congratulate Senator Garret Ahearn on his appointment as Leader of the Seanad. I want to welcome his family, and it is particularly great to see his father here, as well as his whole family and his wife. The Leader's father and I had a long chat at the count. He is a wise man who counted the numbers pretty quickly at the Seanad count. It is great to see them all here.  It is important to say that the Leader of the Seanad is a senior parliamentary role. He or she is appointed by the Taoiseach or the T\u00e1naiste to manage the Government's legislative agenda through this House. Orla Murray, the private secretary to the Leader of the Seanad, co-ordinates this primary Government function. The Leader is lucky to have someone at his side in the Seanad's office, and I congratulate her on what is not an easy job in smoothly managing the orderly running of this House despite all of the conflicting interests.  I welcome the official establishment of the new guardian ad litem national service.  This new service seeks to ensure that every child's voice is heard and that children's best interests are independently presented to a court in cases relating to the proceedings. The official opening of the service today signifies major progress in delivering high quality, accountability and consistency grounded in children's rights. Ensuring that all children in all parts of the country have access to the same high standard of service is a priority for us all.  The independence of guardians ad litem has now been clearly established in law. Guardians ad litem make their own professional judgments and recommendations to courts and this legislation explicitly states that guardians ad litem must at all times act independently in carrying out their functions.  Announcing this initiative today, the Minister, Deputy Foley, said:  The launch of the Guardian ad litem National Service is a landmark moment for children in care in Ireland. At its heart, this ... is about strengthening the voice of the child ... and ensuring that their best interests remain at the heart of every decision.  I commend the Minister, Deputy Foley, and her officials in the Department of Children, Disability and Equality. I also acknowledge, as is important, the substantial advocacy work in this space by the former Labour leader in this House and the current leader of the Labour Party, Deputy Ivana Bacik. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Murphy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Conor-Murphy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Conor Murphy  I also congratulate Senator Ahearn on his elevation to his new position. Having got to know him over the 18 months I have been here, I have no doubt that he has the qualities that will make him a good Leader of the House and I look forward to working with him in the time ahead. I like to think that my refraining from showering praise on him last week, from a Sinn F\u00e9in perspective, might have assisted in securing the job for him, so I am glad I held my tongue at that time. As I said, I have no doubt that he will make a good Leader.  In that context, this week marks the tenth anniversary of Brexit, an experience that none of us holds any deep sense of contentment in remembering. It was a project brought to us by English nationalism and essentially far-right politics in England. Unfortunately, it was supported by the DUP at the time, which wanted to see the hardest possible Border in Ireland. It was a project that was brought forward with no thought for the impact that Brexit would have on either part of this island. The chaos of it continues to unfold. We are now on the sixth or seventh Prime Minister in almost as many years; I have lost count, as many will have. In normal circumstances, we might tell our neighbours to get on with their business and wish them well, but that continuing unfolding of chaotic politics and lurch to the right has an impact on both parts of this island, but particularly on the North because the British Government still holds jurisdiction there.  As we move towards the 30th anniversary of the Good Friday Agreement and recognise the contribution it made in a very positive way, not just to relationships in the North, but on the island and between Ireland and Britain, we can see the stark contrast with what Brexit brought us. The potential contained in the Good Friday Agreement is for constitutional change and a settling of the unfinished business of Ireland on this island, through referendums. I ask the Leader, therefore, to encourage the Government to begin the necessary discussion with the British Government. Who knows who might make up the British Government in three years' time - if it happens in three years' time - when there is a general election? If, God forbid, it is a Farage-led Government, we could be into the possibility of a referendum being called on a whim to satisfy some other need that is not present with us.  The Brexit experience tells us what can happen when things are moved in a chaotic way. Therefore, I ask the Leader to encourage the Government, when a new Prime Minister is in place - it seems likely to be more of a coronation than an election - to begin serious engagement and discussion, because what happens on the island of Britain has an impact on us on this island, particularly in the North. We need to make sure that we do our best to ensure the smooth transition to unity on this island that we all desire in the time ahead and that it is done in an orderly fashion and with good relations with our nearest neighbours. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alison Comyn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alison Comyn  I also congratulate, formally, Senator Ahearn on his appointment. He has been doing a sterling job so far and I know he will into the future. I look forward to working with him.  I warmly welcome his family, who are rightly proud today. They will always remember this date.  There are other dates that are permanently etched in the minds of generations of people. It might be the assassination of JKF or the passing of Elvis, but for a young journalist working in the Dublin in the mid-90s, it was definitely the senseless murder of the journalist Veronica Guerin in June 1996. This Friday will mark the 30th anniversary of her death. I was working in the continuity department of RT\u00c9 at the time. I was the person who the station would break to when there was breaking news. Unfortunately, the breaking news that day was her murder at Newlands Cross. There was pandemonium and stunned silence at the same time. You would have to think that her death was not in vain when, only four months later, the Criminal Assets Bureau was established. The bureau has gone on to do incredible work. There were 34 journalists killed around the world in 1996. Veronica's was not an isolated case. We are only halfway through this year and 21 journalists have already been killed around the world. Being a journalist is still a very dangerous job. We have never seen a more divisive and polarised media right across the world. An independent and trustworthy media is something we really need to value and hold on to. As media spokesperson in the Seanad and as a member of the arts committee, I want to see a debate on how we can protect and make sure that our media is both independent and trustworthy. That is probably a worthy debate to have here. For now, we should think back to Veronica. We will think of her family this Friday. We hope that when they look back, they will see that her passing was not in vain. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Nessa Cosgrove  I have just heard the good news about Senator Ahearn. I congratulate him. I am delighted for him. All of his family are very welcome. It is great news. No better man. He deserves it. Well done.  I want to raise the recent welcome news about having repeat contraception prescriptions for women. I would urge repeat prescriptions would happen for people who use HRT. This is something I am affected by, which is why I wanted to bring it up. The people in my local pharmacy in Sligo asked me to raise the fact that between 15% and 30% of Irish women, including me, use HRT in order to manage symptoms of menopause and perimenopause. I and many others have welcomed the free scheme the Minister for Health brought in. She is to be commended on the proactive nature of what she did in that regard. Even before the free scheme was introduced, there were a lot of indications to the effect that there was not enough availability of HRT products within the market. This shortage is due to matters relating to supply chains. This is not just an Irish issue. Trade unions and the Irish Pharmacy Union have raised concerns in respect of it. If this was any other medication, there would be absolute uproar about what is happening. Our attitude to female reproductive health is not what it should be. In light of the impact weather like this has on people's symptoms, I know how important HRT is. It should be prioritised as an the area of medical healthcare. I wish we could have a conversation about women's health in the Seanad, specifically on this matter. There have been positive moves, and the Minister has to be commended on them. Again, we are looking for repeat prescriptions. HRT is a prescribed medicine, and the lack of availability is not getting the attention it deserves. It is not okay that it is women's health that is affected by the lack of availability. If we could have a debate with the Minister, it would be very welcome. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gareth Scahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Gareth Scahill  I, too, would like to be associated with the congratulations to Senator Ahearn. I congratulated him on Thursday in his absence. We met Liam, his father, last week. He was here a day early prior to the announcement. It is great to have Laura, Daniel and Jamie here. I must shake hands with Jamie and Daniel. From what I have heard, one if not both of them will be future soccer stars. We want to get the photographs in early.  I would also like to congratulate Councillor Domnick Connolly, who was elected cathaoirleach of Roscommon County Council yesterday. He is supported by Councillor Laurence Fallon. I also want to say a big congratulations to Councillor Liam Callaghan following his year as cathaoirleach.  It is coincidental that I am congratulating the Leader, because when I was a young councillor, I met Senator Ahearn on my first visit to Leinster House in July 2024. We spoke about the safe routes to school scheme. He raised the matter that particular week, and I have raised it repeatedly since coming here.  A few weeks ago, I tabled a Commencement matter relating to the money that we are spending on safe routes to schools and how immediate measures are needed outside most of our rural schools to try to reduce speed, with speed ramps being the ideal solution and a more cost-effective use of money as opposed to waiting for the big safe routes to schools scheme. A big debate on the topic was held in the Roscommon County Council chamber yesterday. Councillor Paschal Fitzmaurice from my hometown tabled a motion on it in the context of Threen National School, a school with which I am very familiar. I have done a road safety survey with the parents and staff of that particular school. We are looking at measures whereby the speed limit nationally will be reduced to 30 km\/h outside schools. We need enforcement. If we cannot enforce such a speed limit, we need measures such as speed ramps. It is a matter that I think we definitely need a conversation about in this House.  I support Senator Cosgrove's call for a discussion on women's health. We represent all people, and an open discussion is required. We are all free to talk about that particular topic. It was an issue I raised after the Young Scientist and Technology Exhibition last year, and I followed up on it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sharon Keogan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Sharon Keogan  I congratulate the new Leader. I welcome Laura, Daniel and Jamie, his father and his siblings, to the Gallery. He will do a great job in the future.  I wish to raise the issue of the handling of the aftermath of the Creeslough tragedy, which, I believe, warrants serious examination by this House. Last week, I attended a meeting in the audiovisual room at which I heard directly from victims' families. What they had to say was, quite frankly, appalling and compels me to speak not just about the tragedy itself but also about how those affected have been treated in the years since. As we know, ten people, including three children, lost their lives in that devastating explosion in October 2022. Beyond the immediate loss, what followed has in many respects compounded the trauma experienced by those left behind.  I heard that the counselling services provided in the community were minimal. People indicated that a single counsellor was made available in a local chemist shop to provide therapy and that individuals had to queue on the street for access. The service was effectively only advertised online. Many people were not even aware of it. More worryingly, the supports provided were temporary in nature. We know that the initial drop-in counselling service was withdrawn after one month. In many cases, people were left with no option but to pay out of their own pockets for ongoing therapy. Even now, concerns remain about the longer term availability of counselling, with services under serious strain. This is simply unacceptable.  There are also serious and unanswered questions about the level of oversight and regulation prior to this incident. Families are still waiting for answers as to how such a tragedy could occur. Multiple investigations remain ongoing, with calls for a full public inquiry continuing to this day. The Government should be absolutely ashamed of how those affected by this appalling tragedy have been handled. These families and their communities deserve a long-term, visible and properly resourced response. What they got instead was a Band-Aid. That is not good enough. I demand accountability from this Government. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mary Fitzpatrick  D\u00e9anaim comhghairdeas to the Leader. I wish him well in his new role. I know he will do great. I congratulate his family, who are very welcome. I am sure it is a proud moment for them. It is very well deserved. I look forward to working with the Leader in his new role.  As my party's spokesperson for Dublin and the Dublin city task force, I welcome the decision taken by the Government this morning to transfer the ownership of the GPO from the Department of culture to the Office of Public Works, OPW. This is another step in the process to reopen the GPO. We pass by the GPO, which is a historic building. It is a post office, but it is also the birthplace of our Republic. It is a public building. With this move, the building is going to be open to the public. It is going to be made available for meanwhile use. The public are going to have an opportunity to have their say as part of a public consultation. It is planned that the building will become a cultural, civic and community space.  This is welcome news. A State-funded project, the national development plan, has allowed for up to \u20ac500 million to be invested not only in protecting and preserving it, but also in ensuring its future. I welcome that news and encourage everybody to have their say when the public consultation opens. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Cathal Byrne  I would also like to join in the comments to the new Leader of the House, Senator Ahearn, and to congratulate him and say that I very much look forward to working with him. It is a very nice moment to be joined in the Distinguished Visitors Gallery by a distinguished set of visitors. I congratulate the entire Ahearn family, a family with deep roots in public service and with a proud tradition of serving both in this building and also in council chambers in the past. It very much is appreciated, in particular, by those of us on the Fine Gael side of the House, that we have the opportunity to have them join us here for our new Leader's first Order of Business.  Today, on the Order of Business, I want to commemorate and reflect on the legacy of the Battle of Vinegar Hill which took place on 21 June 1798. The 228th anniversary was commemorated in my home town, on Vinegar Hill, in Enniscorthy, only last weekend. I very much welcome the T\u00e1naiste's comments that Fine Gael will shortly be undertaking a discussion document, a blueprint for what a united Ireland would look like. I am a very proud republican. I believe passionately in a united Ireland. I believe that the institutions of our Republic must and are compelled to fundamentally participate in making sure that in my lifetime, as somebody who is 35, we will have a united Ireland. In the context of 1798, a tradition that united all sides of the divide, I call on us in this Chamber to have discussion on a united Ireland, particularly as it relates to the Presidency of the EU and reflecting on the fact that the former Taoiseach, Enda Kenny, secured a commitment that were the North of Ireland to rejoin the South of Ireland and we have a united Ireland, it would automatically be part of the EU. There is a wider discussion to be had, as our Presidency approaches. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  In relation to that particular topic, we were discussing it earlier with the President of the European Parliament. It was one of the two elected topics: one is agriculture and the other one is the issue around the Good Friday Agreement, part of which is the discussion about the constitutional future of the island of Ireland. We look forward to everybody's engagement on that particular topic. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  I congratulate the Leader. For the last couple of weeks, we were not able to do that from this side of House. It was not going to help him or anything. I really wish the Leader well. Obviously, we have our political differences but we have a lot of shared interests. I wish the Leader and his family well. It is a great honour for Senator Ahearn and I know that he has the qualities that are needed to maintain this role.  In 2023, Gary Ward, a young man, died by suicide. That is three years ago. Last March, I raised his case. He had a lot of mental health issues. He was a loving son. He studied politics in UCD and he was failed by the mental health system. Three years later, the family still have no sight of the inquest. The coroner has literally blanked the family. Obviously, this is very distressing for the family. It does not give them any sense of closure. As I say, they have had radio silence from the coroner's office and that just is not acceptable. The family and Gary were failed by the mental health system and now they are being failed, once again, by the coroner's office. Clearly, the coroner's office is not fit for purpose. To wait three years for an inquest seems completely unacceptable. The family need answers. They need some sort of peace and closure.  I ask that the Minister come in here to explain how he plans to address the crisis in the coroner\u2019s office. It is very unfair on families, not just families like Gary\u2019s, but families across the country. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Duffy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mark Duffy  I join other Members of the House in congratulating my friend and colleague Garret Ahearn on his promotion to becoming Leader of Seanad \u00c9ireann. I know it is a great honour and privilege for him and all his family. I acknowledge and welcome them all here this afternoon, Laura, Daniel and Jamie in particular. While it is not my job, I would like to suggest if there is homework this week that with a bit of support from colleagues it might be dismissed on this special occasion. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  Schools finish on Friday. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Duffy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mark Duffy  Better again.  I also acknowledge Senator Ahearn\u2019s father Liam. I know that his late mother, Theresa, would be immensely proud and I am sure she is looking down on him with pride. Senator Cathal Byrne spoke of the public service within the Ahearn family, through council chambers and both Houses of the Oireachtas. I know they all hold those values with great pride. I look forward to supporting Senator Ahearn in every way I can throughout his term as Leader.  My colleague Mike Kennelly has done a lot of advocacy on the coverage of GAA games as we enter the business end of the season. Obviously, Mayo had a great win against Meath over the weekend and will play Cork this coming weekend. Unfortunately, both of these games will end up being broadcast on GAA+. As Senator Kennelly has outlined before, the GAA is based on volunteerism. The people who fundraise, the waterboys, the managers, the coaches and everyone else have kept together these rural clubs which were and are such a beacon for community and society across County Mayo and elsewhere. Many elderly Mayo supporters will not have access to view the game. They will not be able to travel up to Dublin for the game and do not have the technology or the devices in their houses to watch and enjoy the game. It is very disappointing for them to be excluded from this. Given the volunteerism and the social good within the GAA, there needs to be a broader discussion in this House to make sure there is access for viewers across the country.  Finally, I wish to acknowledge Emma Rose Browne from the Sylvan Kelly School of Irish Dancing who won the under-nine national championship this weekend. It is a great honour and we are all very proud of her. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  When the Senator is in injury time, he should not bring up another topic. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mike Kennelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mike-Kennelly.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Mike-Kennelly.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mike Kennelly  It had to be done. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Maria Byrne  In a personal capacity, I congratulate the Leader along with his wife Laura, sons Jamie and Daniel, his father, Liam, and his brothers. I had the privilege of knowing his late mother, Theresa, and I know she would have been very proud of him today. The contribution the Ahearn family have made, both in local authority life and here in the Houses of the Oireachtas, has been referred to here already. I wish him all the very best of luck in his new role. I know he had a good training ground in recent weeks and he will be fantastic in the job.  Last week the Limerick Post carried an interview with the Minister, Deputy Peter Burke. It dealt with collaboration between industry and education and how that is encouraging some large companies to locate in the mid-west. On the 50th anniversary of Analog Devices being in Limerick, which has had a recent expansion, it is great to see that collaboration between education and industry. We are very lucky to have three third level institutes in the region. UL collaborates with over 400 companies. TUS collaborates with 200 companies. Mary I also has collaboration, as do the ETBs. It has been fantastic in bringing companies from across the water to locate in the mid-west.  There is a report on the Shannon Estuary task force which was commissioned back when Leo Varadkar was Taoiseach.  There was input from industry and the chamber of commerce and many people had input into it. There is a tourism piece and an industry piece in it. The report still has not been initiated or brought forward. There is so much opportunity, especially with the River Shannon in terms of wind energy. There is so much in that report that needs to be looked at. Will the Leader contact the Minister, Deputy Burke, on supporting the bringing forward of that report for the mid-west? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Clonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","memberCode":"Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Tom Clonan  D\u00e9anaim comhghairdeas leis an gCeannaire. I am delighted to see Laura, his beautiful family and his dad here. While we differ on a lot of things, we have one small thing in common. His late mum and my late father both served the people of Cahir in different ways, my dad as a member of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. I know his mum is proud of him and I ask him to go easy on me for the next couple of years.  I raise the increasing levels of misinformation and, I am sorry to say, disinformation about the triple lock. As legislation on the triple lock approaches the Houses, that level of misinformation is accelerating. I want to be very clear about this. If we get rid of the triple lock, we will not have peacekeeping any more. By definition, it is not a blue helmet mission without a UN mandate. Think about that. We will be sending our troops away on missions no longer wearing the blue beret we are proud of or the blue helmet. They will not be peacekeeping missions; they will be peace enforcement missions. Even peace enforcement missions with a UN mandate - for example, the war in Korea, the Balkans, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Kosovo and, more recently, Afghanistan - developed into full fighting missions. Without the triple lock, we will not be sending our people on blue-helmeted missions. We will be sending them to fight. If you are fighting, by definition you are not neutral.  The myth we can only send 12 personnel overseas at the moment and need to get rid of the triple lock is completely untrue, as was confirmed to the defence and national security committee last May by the Department of Defence. The idea Trump, Putin or Xi Jinping has a say in where we send our troops is a false narrative. It is a choice of the Irish people by sovereign decision of the Oireachtas and solemn declarations given in Europe that we would be bound - this is what the Irish people want - by the multilateral principles of the United Nations. A time when we are having illegal wars, for example, the strikes on Iran - reprehensible as that regime is - and the invasion of Lebanon, is not the time to walk away from the UN.  I ask my colleagues in Fianna F\u00e1il to, when they are at their parliamentary meeting tonight talking about this issue, ask where our troops will be sent. To suggest there is no link between neutrality and the triple lock is like saying there is no link between the steering wheel and the brakes on a car. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Evanne N\u00ed Chuilinn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Evanne-N\u00ed-Chuilinn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Evanne-N\u00ed-Chuilinn.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Evanne N\u00ed Chuilinn  D\u00e9anaim comhghairdeas leis an Seanad\u00f3ir Ahearn. He said to me when I first came into the Seanad that he hoped his mam would be proud. I think it is fair to say she always was and definitely is. I congratulate him on his new role. It is great to have his family here to celebrate.  I raise something that was brought to my attention on Saturday night - four nights after it actually happened, which in itself is shocking. There is a national school in Cherry Orchard called St. Ultans. It is an integrated care and education setting, one of very few in Europe. It is not just a school but also a care centre. It has a preschool and an after-school but also has many therapies available on-site for needs in the area.  Because it is not just a school, it has a general manager. Sue Menton did a brilliant job over a number of years but she has retired. A new general manager came in and is fantastic. She is not an Irish person. Last Wednesday night after a concert at the school, she was surrounded by people on scramblers and on foot. She was dragged from her car and assaulted. She has what has been described as a significant laceration to her face. She is only a couple of weeks into this job. It is an exciting job and she is well qualified but she does not feel welcome in Cherry Orchard.  I cannot believe I found out about this on Saturday night, four days after it happened, through the chair of the school. I did not see it in any media or discussed anywhere. If it was anywhere other than Cherry Orchard, it would be everywhere. I have reached out to the Minister. I want to know what the justice Minister is doing.  I want to know what senior garda\u00ed are doing - not just local garda\u00ed, who are firefighting, frankly - in terms of the strategy and what extra funding is going in for youth engagement and youth work in Cherry Orchard, not just from a criminal point of view. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Linda Nelson Murray","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Linda Nelson Murray  I wish Senator Ahearn massive congratulations. I was delighted to speak to him over the weekend. As Senator N\u00ed Chuilinn said, we have heard so much about his mam and his beautiful family. I am sure they are all so proud. I wish him the best of luck for the next year and a half.  There are a couple of things about which I want to speak. I was very proud to be in Navan over the weekend. We had the Midsummer Festival until 21 June, which was fantastic. It is the first time we have grabbed a festival and ran with it really well. I would like to thank Meath County Council for that and for helping with the funding and, obviously, the organisers, who are amazing people. It was wonderful to go around. NeuroFest was another massive festival, with 700 tickets sold. It is a festival for people with neurodivergence. It was really great to see that.  I have just come from a meeting this morning with my colleague, Senator N\u00ed Chuilinn. We met with representatives from FirstLight and F\u00e9ileac\u00e1in. I would like to highlight the work done by both. I am familiar with F\u00e9ileac\u00e1in, its memory boxes and the support it gives to bereaved families because of the death of a baby during or after pregnancy. It is amazing. It comes with first-hand experience of this. One of the ladies we met today, Mairie Cregan, was one of the seven people who set up F\u00e9ileac\u00e1in. It was amazing to listen to her story.  People would have known FirstLight as the Irish Sudden Infant Death Association in the past. The representatives spoke about the fact that FirstLight had 293 cases last year and had seen a 20% increase year on year in its services. It offers one-to-one counselling. FirstLight gets its funding from Tusla, the HSE and Pobal. Last year, it had to deal with five suicides of children under the age of 15. It is an organisation that helps people with the loss of children up to the age of 18. Suicide has become a big part of that. A figure of 64% of what FirstLight deals with is neonatal while the rest is sudden infant death syndrome, SIDS, suicide and loss of babies.  What FirstLight is struggling with is that it does not have multi-annual funding. It does not know from year to year whether funding is going to be there to continue the service, which is obviously vital. I want to encourage this. I have hooked up with the Minister, Jennifer Carroll MacNeill, and her adviser to get a meeting between FirstLight and the Minister. I want to highlight how important the service is, and if people like it could get multi-annual funding, that would be fantastic. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Laura Harmon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Laura Harmon  I congratulate the Leader on his appointment. I am sure that it is a really proud day for his family, who are in the Gallery. He has a long tradition of public service in his family and I am sure that his late mum is very proud watching him today. I also want to acknowledge Scott Ahearn in the Gallery. I knew Scott through student politics back in the day. I would say that the Leader has been involved in politics at all levels in Ireland at this point and I wish him well in his role. I congratulate Senator Cathal Byrne as well on his appointment as Whip today.  Cork public transport is what I want to discuss. We need to have a discussion in this Chamber on it specifically. I say that because Cork is widely regarded as the fastest growing city in Ireland. The population of Cork is expected to rise by between 50% and 60% by 2040. For that reason, we need to prioritise investment and increase the pace of public transport development within the city. We have serious issues in the city in terms of bus reliability - buses not arriving on time and ghost buses disappearing - and the fact that we do not have a modern ticketing system. People cannot just tap on and tap off the bus. That is ridiculous in a modern city. There are well-known routes that are constantly delayed, namely, the 215, the 220, the 214 and the 208. These buses need to be reviewed.  We need our Luas. In the Labour Party, we have called for shovels in the ground by 2030, but we need to make sure that it is delivered on time and on budget for the people of Cork. For too long, we have been left behind. At times, I become sick and tired of hearing consistently about public transport in Dublin when Cork is the fastest growing city. We need real action in relation to it. I would dedicate a specific time slot, if possible, in the Seanad to discuss public transport issues within Cork, which is the second city but, of course, the real capital. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paraic Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paraic-Brady.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Paraic-Brady.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Paraic Brady  I too would like to be associated with the comments regarding our new Leader. It is a huge achievement for Senator Ahearn and his family. I hope he will really enjoy the post, and I am sure that he will. He has been very fair to us all.  Today, I am raising the issue of the Irish Farm Film Producers Group, IFFPG. This is a group that collects all the plastic recycled from baled silage all over Ireland. I acknowledge, first of all, that the IFFPG did ring me back this morning regarding collection points in the north Longford area, which is my area. Two points will not be collecting plastic this year. It was disappointing to see that information this morning. It raised concern that farmers would have to travel long distances to recycling points. I received a phone call from the group this morning and I thank it for that. I hope that we can find a point in the Drumlish, Dromard and Aughnacliffe area. There were two collection points there last year. If we can get at least one collection point this year, that will be good.  Farmers all over Ireland are paying for the plastic to be collected and recycled every time they buy a roll of wrap, silage covers and all the rest of it. This is a facility that has been put in and supported by our Government. If we do not get these facilities up and running and have plastic collected, this will cause huge concern on farms. I hope there are no other areas in the country that have this problem. If there are, I am here to help. Hopefully, we can get the plastic picked up in these areas. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eileen Lynch","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eileen-Lynch.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Eileen-Lynch.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Eileen Lynch  I would also like to be associated with the expressions of congratulation to my colleague, Senator Ahearn, on his appointment as the Leader of the House. He has been a fantastic Acting Leader over the past few weeks. In case there was any doubt, he has really proven himself. I am looking forward to the remainder of his term as the Leader. I acknowledge Senator Ahearn\u2019s family members who are here with him today. It is also an incredibly proud day for them. They are proud of him all the time in light of his political achievements and those of his late mum, but it is particularly the case today. It is such a special day for Senator Ahearn and all his family. I really hope they all enjoy it.  I want to speak about the findings of the European Commission\u2019s latest state of the digital decade report. It was published last week. In particular, I mention its assessment of the digital transition of Irish small and medium enterprises, SMEs. While Ireland continues to perform strongly in many areas of digital skills and online commerce, the report does highlight some concerns. This is mainly about the growing gap between digitally advanced firms and those falling behind. This could impact Ireland\u2019s long-term competitiveness.  SMEs are the backbone of our economy. They employ thousands of people across towns and villages in County Cork and the rest of Ireland. They are central to job creation, innovation and, of course, regional development. The report also points out that while the adoption of technologies such as artificial intelligence, AI, cloud computing and data analytics is increasing, many SMEs continue to face barriers in accessing and implementing these technologies. Only 20% of Irish businesses are using AI on a productive level. We need to ensure that the digital transfer of information is not something just associated with multinationals and large companies, and that family businesses, retailers, farms and tourism enterprises are all able to embrace new technologies and improve productivity. I am seeking a debate with the Minister for Enterprise, Tourism and Employment on how Ireland intends to respond to the report's recommendation to accelerate digital growth, how best we can work with our SMEs to achieve this goal and ensure that all existing supports are accessible. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sarah O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Sarah O'Reilly  I also wish to be associated with the expressions of congratulations to Senator Ahearn. If the last two weeks have been anything to go on, he will do a really good job.  Last Thursday, I attended a meeting of the Cavan and Monaghan Hospital Campaign Group, where people gathered to share stories of their experiences of hospitals in the Cavan-Monaghan area. It seems to me that a pattern is emerging across all the hospitals in the country. I say this after having listened to people recount stories in here. We are hearing stories about people being left in hospital beds, being discharged when they needed care, waiting a long time in accident and emergency departments, issues with diagnoses and, sadly, people who have had family members dying in cold, crowded wards.  I was recently in Castlebar hospital with a family member who was receiving critical care. They were placed in a ward with somebody who was actively dying. That person had the death rattle for nearly two days. The other people in the ward were extremely upset. It is so distressing for the family, for the patient, and for everybody else in the place. At that time, I contacted a friend whose mother had passed away to apologise that I would not be able to make it to the funeral. That person had a similar experience in Cavan hospital, where the parent was in the ward, surrounded by people who were coming and going from a busy ward with visitors, and all there was to protect their privacy was a hospital curtain. We all know that nurses and doctors give great care and do their best, but that those situations would not happen if there was another option. Our services are overrun. They are way beyond capacity and staff are overwhelmed. We need to hear these stories so that we can try to fix what is wrong in our hospital system. We are one of the wealthiest countries in the world and this should not be happening. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aubrey McCarthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Aubrey McCarthy  I congratulate the Leader. Since I came into this House, he has certainly been a friendly face and shown the rest of us how it is done. Judging by the remarks of our colleagues today, he deserves canonisation rather than election to leadership.  I want to mention a good friend of mine, Ann Lane, who was on the hantavirus ship. She got out of quarantine yesterday. We are all delighted with that. She is coming into the House today with Senator Michael McDowell and me. It shows how public events thousands of miles away can impact us here at home. It showed the very best of our public services working together, with her being brought home by our health professionals and Defence Forces. It really showed that when we work well, we work very well.  I also raise an important issue regarding the impact that alcohol can have on mental health and suicide in Ireland. We know that most people in this country can enjoy alcohol socially and responsibly, but there is also a significant number of people for whom alcohol becomes devastating, and we need to speak honestly about that reality. I recently read a heartbreaking article in The Times about a man called Dan, whose family spoke openly about how alcohol contributed to his death by suicide. On the night he died, his alcohol levels were described as staggering. Many families across Ireland can identify with that. Alcohol can intensify depression, increase impulsivity, and deepen feelings of helplessness. I see at first hand, in my work with Tiglin, how alcohol can slowly dismantle a person's mental health, damage relationships and damage families. We need a more joined-up approach that includes early intervention, counselling, addiction treatment, family support, and better dual-diagnosis services. More importantly, we need to get rid of the stigma so that people know, when they want to ask for help, that there is no stigma surrounding it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Conway","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Conway.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Martin-Conway.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Martin Conway  I warmly congratulate Senator Ahearn on assuming the position of Leader. He was doing it anyway, so now he is doing it officially. There is no better man, and Tipperary will be very well represented here, with his position as Leader. I think of the 1990s, when I was in college in Dublin. He and I have often spoke about this. When I travelled down on the train from college to Ennis, the Leader's late mother would be going back from the D\u00e1il. I got much advice from her during those periods in those conversations. It is great to see former Councillor Liam Ahearn, the Leader's dad, and his two brothers. I missed Laura, but I am sure I will meet her and the two boys later on. It is great to have Liam here. I sat in his kitchen in 2011 and he did not let me down back then.  It is just an amazing day. It is fantastic. I am sure Theresa is looking down from those great blue skies with a smile and a bit of guidance for the Leader. He always remembers where he came from and he is always very proud of his political history, which is with absolute justification, having had two parents as public representatives. Now, he is continuing the tradition. I have no doubt his two brothers are very proud of him as well.  There is just one issue I would like a debate on, namely, healthcare in the mid-west. The Leader is fully aware from his own advocacy work in Tipperary that there are serious challenges. We very much welcome the Minister's announcement of a new hospital in University Hospital Limerick, UHL, but the Ennis Hospital action committee has a very detailed budget submission on a consultant-led air ambulance facility to be based in west Clare. There is merit in that because west Clare is unique in terms of its distance from the accident and emergency facilities in UHL. Even with a new hospital, one cannot change the geographical challenges that arise. Perhaps in due course, ahead of the budget, we could have a debate on improving access to accident and emergency services in the mid-west. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  I thank everyone for the lovely comments today. I have definitely got a big head after the past hour of kind words. I am not sure they were all true, but they were really appreciated. I am very grateful. I thank in particular my Fine Gael colleagues for their support over the last number of weeks and in general. We have a great bunch here in the Seanad and it is a privilege to work with all of them. I also thank the Opposition Members for their comments, but particularly for their restraint before I was appointed. I am aware that one or two struggled with that, and I was very fearful that it would have an impact on the decision-making by the Taoiseach and T\u00e1naiste, but thankfully it worked out.  It is a real honour today. A number of Senators mentioned my family. I had the privilege of growing up in a family where there were two passions in life. One was farming and the other was public service. Both my parents were public servants - councillors and a TD. I did not get the gr\u00e1 for the farming but I certainly got the gr\u00e1 for public service. It is a real privilege to have my family here.  I acknowledge the presence of the Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy John Cummins, because in politics, as we all know, you need one or two friends you can rely on through the good times and particularly through the bad. When I came into this House six years ago, I sat beside Deputy Cummins. We have been very good friends since.  I also acknowledge my wife \u2013 my patient wife \u2013 and thank her for being here because it is an important day for our family. Most people here understand that when you get elected to any office or position, local or national, it is a huge day for your family. It is a real privilege to have mine here. My two boys were here for about 40 or 45 minutes and did not say a word, which is amazing. I believe they will go into politics in the future because that is not how they act in private at all. They are my pride and joy and I was delighted to have them here.  I thank the 20 Senators who contributed on the Order of Business today. Senator Fiona O'Loughlin spoke about the ONE study, which relates to the 140,000 veterans of the Defence Forces. It presents a good opportunity to have a debate on the matter, particularly when we are talking about changes in defence, and to acknowledge the work and service the veterans provided over many years. A lot of other countries take so much pride in their defence forces and retired defence forces, and sometimes we do not do so as much as we probably should. Therefore, there is a good opportunity to have a debate here.  Senator O'Loughlin also spoke about Cuan Mhuire, the voluntary addiction service. All such providers need extra funding. We will have a budget in a number of months, but this is a very good opportunity to highlight the work the providers do.  Senator Kennelly spoke about wet bars in traditional pubs. They are vital to our communities, whether in Kerry or Tipperary. We are, unfortunately, seeing a change in society and in how people live their lives.  People want to support their local pubs but there are real challenges in terms of high costs, as the Senator said, and in terms of energy and water. Decisions made have had an impact on staffing whether it is the higher rate of the minimum wage, increased holidays, sick leave or auto-enrolment. There are so many elements that have put a lot of costs on businesses. Although we are bringing in the 9% VAT, which is hugely welcome, we need to make sure to prioritise pubs in rural Ireland, as the Senator said, and the role they play for local communities.  Senator Boyhan spoke in relation to the guardianship legislation and acknowledged the Minister, Deputy Foley\u2019s, work on that. He noted that it will be independent and that it always has supporting children at the heart of it. That was welcomed by the Minister this morning.  Senator Murphy spoke in relation to the ten-year anniversary of Brexit, which happened today. We spoke about that this morning as well with President Metsola and if there is ever an example how one decision can change how politics works in a country, it is certainly Brexit. It looks like the UK is going to have its seventh Prime Minister in ten years, which is incredibly frustrating. Senator Murphy talked about how the Good Friday Agreement was hardly discussed during Brexit. I remember that James O\u2019Brien used to do a radio interview every day on LBC Radio, and I think that he was only reporter who used to talk about the implications it would have on Northern Ireland and the Good Friday Agreement. Ten years later, we still have the same issues to deal with. However, as the Senator said, it is a good opportunity to have a serious engagement with the new Prime Minister when he or she takes office in September. We have to continue that engagement because it has improved since Keir Starmer took office. It is important that it continues and develops even further.  Senator Comyn spoke about the 30th anniversary of Veronica Guerin\u2019s murder. It is amazing that it is 30 years. Most people were shocked and outraged by what happened on that day. To think that someone would be killed in broad daylight in front of people but as the Senator said, positive things have happened from it. The establishment of CAB has had a huge impact on criminal organisations in this country and that would not have happened only for Veronica Guerin. There are, as the Senator said, many journalists across the world who go into danger and sadly lose their lives. We do a lot of work on the media committee on this, but we need to highlight this more and we can in this Chamber.  Senator Nessa Cosgrove spoke about the HRT scheme. It is a good thing to raise, as it is a free scheme but there is no point in having a free scheme if it is not available or in low supply. When the Senator talks about women\u2019s health, it is almost like the Government or the two Houses of the Oireachtas are catching up on women\u2019s health. One of the reasons is probably because in years gone by, people in either Chamber did not speak up about it. When 40% of the representatives in the Seanad are women, it just shows that these important issues can be highlighted, and things can be changed for the better. I will ask the Minister for a debate on that.  Senator Gareth Scahill spoke in relation to the appointment of Councillor Domnick Connolly to the role of Cathaoirleach. It is a great honour for him, and I have no doubt that he will do a good job. He is replacing Councillor Liam Callaghan who did a fantastic job and we wish them both well. We have spoken numerous times in the Seanad about safe routes to school and what we can do in relation to rural schools in particular and making them safer. I know that myself. We have kids the same age, so we know the dangers that are there in rural communities. It is more about getting funding in the next budget as well, not necessarily for big projects, but small things that can reduce speed on roads.  Senator Sharon Keogan spoke in relation to the Creeslough tragedy. If what the Senator is saying is the case - I have no reason to doubt it - it just seems terrible that the supports are not there for the victims, their families and people who are struggling on the back of one of the worst atrocities that ever happened in Ireland. Ten people died, including three kids, in a tiny village on the northern tip of our island. It was a terrible thing to happen. As Leader of the Seanad, I will write to the T\u00e1naiste to outline the Senator\u2019s concerns, which are genuine.  You would like to think that sort of support would be in place for those people still.  Senator Fitzpatrick spoke about the GPO and the transfer of ownership to the OPW, which is significant because it opens up the opportunity to re-open it for the public good. A consultation period will happen or will open soon. I am not sure what the dates are, but I encourage people to engage in that consultation process, because the GPO plays a vital role in the city centre of Dublin. We have had many debates here about how much more funding needs to go into promoting the city centre. It is a tourist attraction. People judge the whole country based on how they see the city centre and the GPO plays a vital role in that.  Senator Cathal Byrne spoke about the Battle of Vinegar Hill in 1798. He has educated me many times in his office on that historic event. As he said, he is a true republican. We all strive for a united Ireland. That is why the T\u00e1naiste raised it two weeks ago although there is sometimes criticism of that, but then there is criticism if people do not raise it. Senator Murphy has spoken about it numerous times. The more people who raise it, the better. As was said, we should all be striving for it. We spoke about it this morning with President Metsola, about using our Presidency to promote the vision we all have for a united Ireland.  Senator Andrews spoke about the sad passing of Gary Ward a number of years ago. What is sadder is that there is no closure for families. For someone to wait three years to get some sort of facts or findings about what happened from the coroner's office is not acceptable. Families have enough to deal with in the tragedy itself, without having to try to get answers. I will write to the Minister to see if he will come in to debate this, because that is hardly the only example. I suspect people around the country have been waiting more than the time they should be.  Senator Duffy raised GAA coverage and GAA+. One of the requests I might have as Leader, particularly for this year, is that people do not talk about the GAA. Tipperary is out of it. People come to the Seanad giving out they cannot watch their teams play. My team is not even playing. They are small issues. On a serious note, I can see why, when there are many games at the start of the season, all of them cannot be shown on RT\u00c9. However, certainly when we get to the latter end, when there are three or four matches per weekend, I do not see any reason RT\u00c9 cannot show them all, particularly as it is an organisation founded on volunteerism.  Senator Maria Byrne spoke about the Limerick Post interview with the Minister, Deputy Peter Burke and how we want to do more to promote big businesses coming to rural Ireland. A lot of that has been done in recent years. As the Senator said, the interaction between colleges and companies can improve an area or town. That is happening with the University of Limerick, the Technological University of the Shannon, TUS, and Mary Immaculate College. The Shannon Estuary task force report was published and it would be good to have a debate here. We have a lot of representatives from the region and just outside it, which could benefit massively. I will contact the Minister's office to see if we can have a debate. The Minister, Deputy Burke, will get a lot of requests from me from today.  Senator Clonan spoke about the triple lock. He is passionate about it. There are differing views on all sides of the House but he is knowledgeable about the Defence Forces and defence protocol. The Oireachtas joint committee on defence will go through pre-legislative scrutiny of it. It will come to this House and I have no doubt we will have a detailed debate on it. When that happens, we can speak about it in more detail.  Senator N\u00ed Chuilinn spoke about something awful and the fact it was not even mentioned that this happened. It was the new general manager of St. Ultans school who was attacked, essentially. I suspect a Garda investigation is happening at the moment and these people need to be dealt with at the highest level.  I hope that is happening. I am sure the Senator knows whether it is. It is just not acceptable that someone who has come into this country and is giving incredible service by supporting vulnerable people - children - here is attacked like that by thugs, essentially. I will write to the Minister's office to ask what the Minister is doing. As the Senator said, it is not just about having garda\u00ed on the street because they are dealing with an awful lot - it is also about senior garda\u00ed in terms of policy and what they are doing in the area.  Senator Nelson Murray told the House that the Navan Midsummer Festival was a huge success. Those things always have a massive impact on a town. The knock-on financial benefit to businesses right across the area is hugely important. The Senator also spoke about her meeting with representatives of FirstLight - I did not realise it has been renamed from the Irish Sudden Infant Death Association - which deals with many tragic cases. One of the real challenges for all of these organisations is that they are fighting for money every single year and, as the Senator said, there is no multi-annual funding. I know the Minister, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, is very focused on getting multi-annual funding at HSE level for the future. There are organisations that need such funding. I know that because it is not just organisations like this one that are affected. My brother Scott, who works in the mental health sector, is very familiar with trying to fight for funding every single year in order to support people. If there was multi-annual funding, it would give certainty to people who work in that sector.  Senator Harmon called for a debate on Cork, basically. I am in support of that. I lived in Cork for ten years, as she knows. On a serious note, transport is a critical part of how a city can develop. If a city is increasing its population by 50% or 60% by 2040, we need to have the means to be able to support that. There will be challenges with the Luas development across the city, which was welcome news when she raised it two or three months ago, and it will take some time but that needs to progress as quickly as possible. There are always difficulties in it. The greater scheme is to connect both sides of the city. If that can happen, it will be really positive for the area. I am familiar with one or two of the bus routes where buses used to be late. I will write to the Minister to see if we can have a debate on transport around Cork city.  Senator Brady spoke about the plastic collection points, which are there to encourage farmers to bring their waste plastic back so it is not just left on a farm, left idle or disposed of independently. It is about recycling and reusing that plastic. Those sites need to be close to farmers so they can avail of them. Obviously that is very important.  Senator Lynch raised the digital decade report and said that, predominantly, people think it is about big firms and big companies but small businesses need to start to move with the times as well. That is a real challenge. We brought in a number of initiatives during Covid to try to encourage people to go online for simple things like online shopping or online promotion of their businesses. The world has changed and how people interact with businesses and firms is changing. Many companies in my local area are small to medium-sized companies. We need to be able to make sure they can focus on and improve their services online. I will ask the Minister, Deputy Burke, for a debate on that.  Senator Sarah O'Reilly spoke about Cavan hospital. During the past couple of weeks, while I have been here, Senator Tully has raised a number of examples in respect of Cavan hospital. All of those examples can be very distressing for the families. I will ask the Minister, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, about the services of some hospitals around the country. Cavan has come up in this Chamber quite a lot so I will ask if we can have a debate on that.  Senator McCarthy spoke about the connection between alcohol, mental health and suicide. Essentially, dual diagnosis has always been the challenge here. I know the Senator does an awful lot of work with Tiglin so he knows it well. The Minister of State with responsibility for mental health, Deputy Butler, introduced a Bill a number of months ago. She is very passionate on the subject and wants to improve the area and get more funding for it. I will see if she can come into this House for a debate.  I know about healthcare in the mid-west, which Senator Martin Conway spoke about, because Tipperary is connected to that. There has been the very positive announcement of a new hospital as part of UHL.  There has, however, been some disappointment regarding Ennis. If Ennis is looking for an air ambulance, we certainly could call in the Minister. I suspect that tabling a Commencement matter might be the best option for Senator Conway. I am more than happy to support him on it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank the Leader and congratulate him on his first official Order of Business as Leader of Seanad \u00c9ireann. I join with him in welcoming former Senator Cummins and the Minister of State. Both are most welcome to Seanad \u00c9ireann, as are all his family and the two young fellows who, like all the Senators normally are, were impeccably well behaved. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Order of Business agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"An tOrd Gn\u00f3 - Order of Business"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-23\/debate\/dbsect_9","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"\u00dadar\u00e1s na Gaeltachta (Amendment) Bill 2024: C\u00e9im an Choiste agus na C\u00e9imeanna a bheidh F\u00e1gtha","counts":{"speechCount":18,"speakerCount":6},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_9","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Shane Curley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Shane-Curley.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Shane-Curley.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pauline Tully","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Conway","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Conway.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joe-Conway.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"PJ Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/PJ-Murphy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"PJ-Murphy.S.2025-01-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Shane Curley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Shane-Curley.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Shane-Curley.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Shane Curley)  Cuirim f\u00e1ilte roimh an Aire, an Teachta Calleary. Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis as teacht isteach inniu. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Aonta\u00edodh ailt 1 go 5, go huile."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"ALT 6"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Nessa Cosgrove  Tairgim leas\u00fa Uimh. 1:  Ar leathanach 13, idir l\u00edne 3 agus l\u00edne 4, an m\u00e9id seo a leanas a chur isteach:  \u201c(7A) F\u00e9adfaidh an t\u00dadar\u00e1s leas i maoin agus r\u00e9admhaoin a cheannach n\u00f3 a fh\u00e1il ar mhaithe le tith\u00edocht, seirbh\u00eds\u00ed, n\u00f3 \u00e1iseanna s\u00f3isialta n\u00f3 cult\u00fair a chur ar f\u00e1il ar cib\u00e9 t\u00e9arma\u00ed agus faoi r\u00e9ir cib\u00e9 coinn\u00edollacha is cu\u00ed leis.\u201d.  Cuirim f\u00e1ilte roimh an Aire. Labhair m\u00e9 faoi seo an tseachtain seo caite. Ba mhaith liom labhairt faoin leas\u00fa seo a chuirfeadh feabhas m\u00f3r ar chearta daoine a rugadh agus a t\u00f3gadh sa Ghaeltacht. T\u00e1 s\u00e9 t\u00e1bhachtach don phobal agus do thodhcha\u00ed na Gaeltachta go mbeadh r\u00f3l n\u00edos l\u00e1rna\u00ed ag \u00dadar\u00e1s na Gaeltachta i sol\u00e1thar tith\u00edochta sa Ghaeltacht do chainteoir\u00ed Gaeilge. Sa Bhille anois, beidh cead ag an \u00fadar\u00e1s talamh a dh\u00edol. Ba ch\u00f3ir go mbeadh cead ag an \u00fadar\u00e1s talamh a cheannach ar mhaithe le tith\u00edocht a chur ar f\u00e1il. T\u00e1 400 acra tal\u00fan ag an \u00fadar\u00e1s a bheadh oiri\u00fanach le haghaidh seo, dar leis f\u00e9in. T\u00e1 a fhios agam go bhfuil saineolas agus scileanna in \u00dadar\u00e1s na Gaeltachta chun togra\u00ed agus sc\u00e9imeanna mar seo a \u00e9asc\u00fa. Bheadh rann\u00f3g thith\u00edochta san \u00fadar\u00e1s in ann cabhr\u00fa le muintir na Gaeltachta leis na deiseanna a bheadh acu maireacht\u00e1il sa Ghaeltacht ar bhonn l\u00e1rnach, ag cabhr\u00fa le hUisce \u00c9ireann, comhairl\u00ed contae agus comharchumainn \u00e1iti\u00fala a fheileann don togra sin. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pauline Tully","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Pauline Tully  T\u00e1 g\u00e9arch\u00e9im tith\u00edochta sa Ghaeltacht at\u00e1 ag d\u00e9anamh dam\u00e1iste don phobal teanga. N\u00edl teaghlaigh sa Ghaeltacht in ann teach a aimsi\u00fa le ceannach n\u00f3 a dteach f\u00e9in a th\u00f3g\u00e1il. Is \u00e9 sprioc an Bhille seo n\u00e1 daonlathas a thabhairt ar ais in \u00dadar\u00e1s na Gaeltachta agus a chinnti\u00fa gur f\u00e9idir leis an \u00fadar\u00e1s tabhairt faoi na fadhbanna at\u00e1 ag cur isteach ar mhuintir na Gaeltachta. Is m\u00f3r an trua \u00e9 n\u00e1r \u00e9ist an Rialtas le Sinn F\u00e9in sa D\u00e1il maidir le bord ioml\u00e1n tofa a bheith ann. Is m\u00f3r an trua \u00e9 freisin n\u00e1r ghlac an Rialtas le leasuithe \u00f3 Shinn F\u00e9in chun an t-\u00fadar\u00e1s a l\u00e1idri\u00fa. N\u00edl ach aon leas\u00fa amh\u00e1in \u00e1 mholadh ag Sinn F\u00e9in agus na Seanad\u00f3ir\u00ed eile \u00f3n bhFreas\u00fara anseo, leas\u00fa a mhol Conradh na Gaeilge chun deis a thabhairt don \u00fadar\u00e1s talamh agus maoin a fh\u00e1il chun tith\u00edocht a shol\u00e1thar. L\u00e9ir\u00edonn an bh\u00e9im seo ar ch\u00farsa\u00ed tith\u00edochta c\u00e9 chomh t\u00e1bhachtach at\u00e1 s\u00e9. Gan tithe, n\u00ed bheidh teaghlaigh ag fanacht. Gan teaghlaigh, n\u00ed bheidh todhcha\u00ed ag an nGaeltacht.  D\u00fairt an tAire ar Ch\u00e9im an Choiste sa D\u00e1il go dtiocfadh s\u00e9 ar ais le leasuithe faoi seo, ach n\u00edor th\u00e1inig. D\u00fairt an tAire ar Ch\u00e9im na Tuarasc\u00e1la sa D\u00e1il go raibh s\u00e9 oscailte roimh thuairim\u00ed \u00f3n bhFreas\u00fara. Dhi\u00faltaigh s\u00e9 d\u00f3ibh go l\u00e9ir. T\u00e1 B\u00c1N\u00da, Tinte\u00e1n, Conradh na Gaeilge agus gn\u00edomhaireachta\u00ed ar fud na Gaeltachta ag moladh r\u00f3l n\u00edos l\u00e1idre don \u00fadar\u00e1s le leas\u00fa mar seo. D\u00fairt an tAire \"in terms of developing housing and planning responsibilities for housing, there are other, quicker ways to do it. N\u00edl \u201cother, quicker ways\u201d le feice\u00e1il go dt\u00ed seo. T\u00e1 an gh\u00e9arch\u00e9im ag \u00e9ir\u00ed n\u00edos measa. Teasta\u00edonn gn\u00edomh anois. C\u00e9 go bhfuil s\u00e9 aontaithe faoin mBille seo go mbeadh an t-\u00fadar\u00e1s in ann f\u00e1il r\u00e9idh le maoin chun tac\u00fa le sol\u00e1thar tith\u00edochta, n\u00edl aon rud sa Bhille seo ag tabhairt cead don \u00fadar\u00e1s maoin a fh\u00e1il sa ch\u00e9ad \u00e1it chun \u00e9 a chur ar f\u00e1il mar thith\u00edocht. C\u00e9n f\u00e1th? An bhfuil an tAire s\u00e1sta glacadh leis an leas\u00fa seo chun an cead sin a thabhairt d\u00f3? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Conway","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Conway.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joe-Conway.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joe Conway  Mar is eol do nach m\u00f3r gach Seanad\u00f3ir, chaith m\u00e9 tr\u00e9imhse dh\u00e1 bhliain ar bhord an \u00fadar\u00e1is. Chuala m\u00e9 ar\u00eds agus ar\u00eds eile an d\u00edosp\u00f3ireacht a bh\u00ed ann ansin. N\u00edl m\u00e9 ag ligean amach aon r\u00fan anois, ach bh\u00ed s\u00edordh\u00edosp\u00f3ireacht faoi thith\u00edocht agus na tailte a bh\u00ed i seilbh an \u00fadar\u00e1is agus an chomhairle a bh\u00ed \u00e1 f\u00e1il aige iad sin a ligean amach ar an margadh agus araile. I measc na gcomhalta\u00ed, bh\u00ed s\u00e9 go forleathan ina dtuairim\u00ed go raibh d\u00f3thain oibre le d\u00e9anamh ag an \u00fadar\u00e1s f\u00e9in gan a bheith ag dul isteach sa mhargadh maoine mar sh\u00f3rt ceant\u00e1la\u00ed ag d\u00edol agus ag ceannach maoine, r\u00e9admhaoine chomh maith. Tuigim go r\u00edmhaith c\u00e1 h\u00e1it as a dtagann an leas\u00fa seo, ach i nd\u00e1ir\u00edre, t\u00e1 a ghn\u00f3 f\u00e9in le d\u00e9anamh ag an \u00fadar\u00e1s. B'fh\u00e9idir nach bhfuil an ceart deimhin agam, ach ceapaim nach bhfuil s\u00e9 toilteanach agus nach bhfuil an chumhacht seo de dh\u00edth uaidh dul isteach i sc\u00e9imeanna mar seo ag lorg, thall is abhus, tailte le d\u00edol n\u00f3 le cur ar c\u00edos do dhaoine n\u00f3 cumainn n\u00f3 gach uile rud mar sin.  N\u00edor mhaith liom tac\u00fa leis an leas\u00fa seo ar an \u00e1bhar sin. N\u00ed h\u00e9 seo an d\u00edri\u00fa at\u00e1 ar an mBille. T\u00e1 an Bille seo d\u00edrithe i gceart don \u00fadar\u00e1s. Leis an leas\u00fa seo, bheif\u00ed ag caitheamh ualach m\u00f3r oibre ar an \u00fadar\u00e1s, rud nach bhfuil tuillte aige. N\u00edl s\u00e9 de dh\u00edth air. Mar sin, t\u00e1 m\u00e9 in aghaidh an leasaithe seo. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Rural and Community Development and the Gaeltacht (Deputy Dara Calleary)  Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis na Seanad\u00f3ir\u00ed as an leas\u00fa. T\u00e1 cumhacht ag \u00dadar\u00e1s na Gaeltachta maoin a cheannach agus a dh\u00edol faoi l\u00e1thair. T\u00e1 tith\u00edocht san \u00e1ireamh leis seo mar is maoin at\u00e1 i dtith\u00edocht. Faoin reachta\u00edocht reatha, t\u00e1 s\u00e9 de chumhacht ag an \u00fadar\u00e1s talamh, foirgnimh, marga\u00ed, \u00e1itribh n\u00f3 gl\u00e9asra a fh\u00e1il, a ghlacadh ar aistri\u00fa, a shealbh\u00fa, a dh\u00edol, a mhorg\u00e1isti\u00fa, a l\u00e9as\u00fa, a ligean n\u00f3 a dhi\u00fascairt ar shl\u00ed eile agus foirgnimh, marga\u00ed, \u00e1itribh n\u00f3 gl\u00e9asra a th\u00f3g\u00e1il, a athr\u00fa n\u00f3 a chothabh\u00e1il. N\u00edl s\u00e9 i gceist agam an leas\u00fa seo a chur san \u00e1ireamh sa Bhille le go mbeadh an t-\u00fadar\u00e1s ag t\u00f3g\u00e1il tithe sa Ghaeltacht. Ina \u00e1it sin, tac\u00f3idh an eagra\u00edocht le sol\u00e1thar tith\u00edochta sa Ghaeltacht.  N\u00edl s\u00e9 i gceist agam go mbeidh an t-\u00fadar\u00e1s ag bainisti\u00fa th\u00f3g\u00e1il tithe n\u00f3 sc\u00e9imeanna tith\u00edochta sa Ghaeltacht ach oiread. N\u00ed gn\u00edomhaireacht tith\u00edochta n\u00f3 \u00fadar\u00e1s \u00e1iti\u00fail \u00e9 an t-\u00fadar\u00e1s, agus t\u00e1 s\u00e9 t\u00e1bhachtach \u00e9 seo a r\u00e1. B\u00edonn \u00fadar\u00e1is \u00e1iti\u00fala ag feidhmi\u00fa sna ceantair Ghaeltachta ar fad, agus titeann c\u00faram na tith\u00edochta orthu.  Baineann an Bille seo le toghch\u00e1n chuig bhord \u00dadar\u00e1s na Gaeltachta a athbhun\u00fa. T\u00e1 s\u00e9 t\u00e1bhachtach tosa\u00edocht a thabhairt don sprioc sin agus muid ag iarraidh an reachta\u00edocht a bhr\u00fa ar aghaidh.  T\u00e1 \u00dadar\u00e1s na Gaeltachta freagrach as forbairt eacnama\u00edoch, s\u00f3isialta, teangeola\u00edochta agus cult\u00fair sa Ghaeltacht. Mar a d\u00fairt m\u00e9, t\u00e1 cumhachta\u00ed cuimsitheacha ag an eagra\u00edocht cheana f\u00e9in maidir le maoin a cheannach n\u00f3 a fh\u00e1il agus an t-\u00fadar\u00e1s ag tabhairt faoi fhorbairt eacnama\u00edoch, s\u00f3isialta, teangeola\u00edochta agus cult\u00fair sa Ghaeltacht. Beidh r\u00f3l an-t\u00e1bhachtach ag an \u00fadar\u00e1s i gc\u00farsa\u00ed tith\u00edochta, ach is r\u00f3l t\u00e1naisteach \u00e9. Lu\u00edonn an pr\u00edomhr\u00f3l maidir le plean\u00e1il tith\u00edochta leis na h\u00fadar\u00e1is \u00e1iti\u00fala. T\u00e1 muid ag obair ar r\u00e1iteas plean\u00e1la tith\u00edochta don Ghaeltacht chomh maith.  Ag an bpointe seo, t\u00e1 deontas ar f\u00e1il do thithe folmha sa Ghaeltacht. N\u00edl na figi\u00fair\u00ed d\u00edreacha agam ach cuirfear iad thar r\u00edomhphost chuig na Seanad\u00f3ir\u00ed. L\u00e9ir\u00edonn na figi\u00fair\u00ed, agus an m\u00e9id airgid a \u00edocadh amach, go bhfuil a l\u00e1n daoine ag baint \u00fas\u00e1id as na tithe folmha sa Ghaeltacht. T\u00e1 ard\u00fa m\u00f3r ar l\u00edon na gcead\u00fanas plean\u00e1la sa Ghaeltacht le haghaidh tithe nua a th\u00f3g\u00e1il sa Ghaeltacht. Mar sin, t\u00e1 ruda\u00ed ag tarl\u00fa.  N\u00edl s\u00e9 f\u00e9ar\u00e1ilte an rud sin a chur ar an \u00fadar\u00e1s. T\u00e1 m\u00e9 ag iarraidh go mbeidh s\u00e9 d\u00edrithe ar r\u00f3l fiontair, s\u00f3isialta agus teangeola\u00edochta. C\u00e9 go mbeidh r\u00f3l t\u00e1naisteach t\u00e1bhachtach ag an \u00fadar\u00e1s i gc\u00farsa\u00ed tith\u00edochta, n\u00edl s\u00e9 ceart n\u00e1 f\u00e9ar\u00e1ilte le r\u00e1 gurb \u00e9 an freagra ar an d\u00fashl\u00e1n m\u00f3r seo. Is \u00e9 sin an f\u00e1th nach f\u00e9idir liom glacadh leis an leas\u00fa seo. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Nessa Cosgrove  Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an Aire. I dt\u00fas b\u00e1ire, f\u00e1ilt\u00edm roimh an obair at\u00e1 d\u00e9anta aige \u00f3 ceapadh ina Aire \u00e9. Is m\u00f3r an trua \u00e9 seo a chloiste\u00e1il, \u00e1fach. T\u00e1 d\u00edom\u00e1 orm nach dtac\u00f3idh an tAire leis an leas\u00fa seo. T\u00e1 a fhios againn go bhfuil fadhbanna m\u00f3ra maidir le tith\u00edocht sa Ghaeltacht. Tugann an leas\u00fa seo n\u00edos m\u00f3 deiseanna don \u00fadar\u00e1s freagra\u00ed n\u00edos praitici\u00fala agus n\u00edos d\u00edrithe a bheith aige do na fadhbanna tith\u00edochta at\u00e1 os a chomhair. T\u00e1 a fhios agam nach n-\u00e9ireoidh leis an leas\u00fa ag an am seo, ach gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an Aire p\u00e9 sc\u00e9al \u00e9. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an leas\u00fa."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Faisn\u00e9iseadh go rabhthas tar \u00e9is di\u00falt\u00fa don leas\u00fa."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Tairgeadh an cheist: \u201cGo bhfanfaidh alt 6 mar chuid den Bhille\u201d."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"PJ Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/PJ-Murphy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"PJ-Murphy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator P. J. Murphy  Maidir le halt 6, t\u00e1 a fhios ag gach duine sa Teach seo go bhfuil fadhb mh\u00f3r i ngach ceantar Gaeltachta timpeall na t\u00edre le tith\u00edocht. T\u00e1 a l\u00e1n oibre le d\u00e9anamh ag na h\u00fadar\u00e1is \u00e1iti\u00fala agus comhlachta\u00ed cos\u00fail le B\u00c1N\u00da i gConamara agus Tinte\u00e1n i ngach ceantar Gaeltachta timpeall na t\u00edre. T\u00e1 an chumhacht ag \u00dadar\u00e1s na Gaeltachta le bheith ag oibri\u00fa leis na h\u00fadar\u00e1is \u00e1iti\u00fala i leith fhadhb na tith\u00edochta i ngach ceantar Gaeltachta. Is mian liom mo thaca\u00edocht f\u00e9in, agus taca\u00edocht mo ph\u00e1irt\u00ed, Fine Gael, don Bhille seo a chur in i\u00fal. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh agus aonta\u00edodh an cheist."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Aonta\u00edodh ailt 7 go 12, go huile."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"ALT 13"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Tairgeadh an cheist: \"Go bhfanfaidh alt 13 mar chuid den Bhille\"."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pauline Tully","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Pauline Tully  T\u00e1 m\u00e9 buartha faoi roinnt ruda\u00ed sa Bhille seo a bh\u00ed curtha isteach sa phl\u00e9 sa D\u00e1il. D'\u00fas\u00e1id an Rialtas gilit\u00edn chun stop a chur le pl\u00e9 ar leasuithe m\u00f3ra ar Acht na dTeangacha Oifigi\u00fala agus Acht na Gaeltachta, nach raibh pl\u00e9ite sa choiste. N\u00ed hionann na leasuithe seo le h\u00dadar\u00e1s na Gaeltachta. T\u00e1 an Rialtas ag athr\u00fa rialacha maidir le f\u00f3gra\u00edocht, ballra\u00edocht an choiste chomhairligh agus maidir leis an sprioc earca\u00edochta 20%. M\u00e1 t\u00e1 f\u00f3gra\u00ed ar l\u00edne at\u00e1 d\u00edrithe ar an domhan ioml\u00e1n, an mbeidh na rialacha faoi \u00fas\u00e1id na Gaeilge f\u00f3s i bhfeidhm orthu? C\u00e9n f\u00e1th a bhfuil an tAire ag iarraidh n\u00edos m\u00f3 guthanna \u00f3 st\u00e1tseirbh\u00edsigh ar an gcoiste comhairleach nuair nach raibh ach guth f\u00edorbheag ar son an phobail ch\u00e9anna f\u00e9in? An bhfuil an tAire ag admh\u00e1il nach raibh an Rialtas d\u00e1ir\u00edre faoi 20% d'earcaithe a bheith l\u00edofa sa Ghaeilge \u00f3 2030 agus \u00e9 ag athr\u00fa focla\u00edochta anois? An aithn\u00edonn an tAire go bhfuil fadhbanna sa ch\u00f3ras plean\u00e1la teanga freisin m\u00e1 t\u00e1 s\u00edneadh \u00e1 chur le pleananna reatha? C\u00e9n f\u00e1th a raibh gilit\u00edn in \u00fas\u00e1id sa D\u00e1il ar an bpl\u00e9 seo? T\u00e1 a l\u00e1n ceisteanna le freagairt ag an Aire. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Shane Curley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Shane-Curley.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Shane-Curley.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Shane Curley)  An bhfuil an tAire ag iarraidh teacht isteach air seo? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  Tiocfaidh m\u00e9 isteach ar deireadh agus beidh freagra agam ansin. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Shane Curley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Shane-Curley.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Shane-Curley.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Shane Curley)  Sula dt\u00e9im ar aghaidh leis an gceist, cuirim f\u00e1ilte roimh Ollscoil Tulane. I welcome the guests of Deputy Ryan O'Meara from Tulane University, at\u00e1 sa Ghaileara\u00ed inniu. T\u00e1 f\u00e1ilte mh\u00f3r rompu. Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leo as ucht teacht isteach. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh agus aonta\u00edodh an cheist."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Aonta\u00edodh ailt 14 go 16, go huile."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"TEIDEAL"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Tairgeadh an cheist: \"Gurb \u00e9 an Teideal an Teideal a ghabann leis an mBille.\""},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an Seanad as d\u00edosp\u00f3ireacht a dh\u00e9anamh ar an mBille t\u00e1bhachtach seo inniu, go h\u00e1irithe na Seanad\u00f3ir\u00ed a bh\u00ed ann le haghaidh an Dara C\u00e9im freisin. In ainneoin nach mbeimid in ann aon cheann de na leasuithe a th\u00f3g\u00e1il, tuigim go m\u00f3r an br\u00fa at\u00e1 ar na Gaeltachta\u00ed faoi ch\u00farsa\u00ed tith\u00edochta agus t\u00e1imid d\u00edrithe ar an d\u00fashl\u00e1n sin. T\u00e1imid ag obair leis an Aire tith\u00edochta, an Teachta Browne, le haghaidh r\u00e1iteas plean\u00e1la Gaeltachta. T\u00e1imid chun \u00e9 sin a fhoilsi\u00fa an-luath. Freisin, t\u00e1imid ag obair leis an \u00fadar\u00e1s. Cuirimid airgead go dt\u00ed an t-\u00fadar\u00e1s chun poist nua a bhun\u00fa san \u00fadar\u00e1s, oifigigh at\u00e1 i gceannas ar eolas faoi thithe folmha sa Ghaeltacht. Colm Mac Eachmharcaigh at\u00e1 i gceannas ar sin. Is as Maigh Eo d\u00f3, agus t\u00e1 s\u00e9 sin t\u00e1bhachtach, ach l\u00e9ir\u00edonn s\u00e9 sin go bhfuil s\u00e9 ag obair ar na saghsanna figi\u00fair\u00ed agus go mbeidh eolas againn faoi na figi\u00fair\u00ed. T\u00e1 sin as an \u00fadar\u00e1s. T\u00e1imid ag cabhr\u00fa leis an \u00fadar\u00e1s.  T\u00e1imid an-d\u00e1ir\u00edre faoin sprioc 20%. Beidh s\u00e9 d\u00fashl\u00e1nach. N\u00edl aon dabht go mbeidh d\u00fashl\u00e1n ann, ach t\u00e1 s\u00e9 t\u00e1bhachtach freisin do na daoine a bhfuil Gaeilge acu sa St\u00e1tseirbh\u00eds ag an bpointe seo agus go mbeidh siad p\u00e1irteach ann. Beidh siad p\u00e1irteach san iarracht sin. Ar maidin, bh\u00edomar ag obair leis an Aire, an Teachta Lawless, tar \u00e9is bhun\u00fa coiste nua Rialtais le haghaidh obair a dh\u00e9anamh sa tr\u00ed\u00fa leibh\u00e9al agus go mbeidh c\u00farsa\u00ed tr\u00ed\u00fa leibh\u00e9al as Gaeilge le haghaidh na sprice sin a bhaint amach. Baineann s\u00e9 le c\u00farsa\u00ed leighis, c\u00farsa\u00ed teicni\u00fala agus c\u00farsa\u00ed litr\u00edochta. T\u00e1 an tAire, an Teachta Lawless, tar \u00e9is c\u00farsa nua le haghaidh mh\u00fainteoireacht bunscoile a chur ar f\u00e1il ionas go mbeimid in ann daoine le Gaeilge a thabhairt isteach go dt\u00ed na poist sin.  Mar sin, t\u00e1 s\u00e9 an-t\u00e1bhachtach d\u00fainn. C\u00e9 go bhfuil s\u00e9 t\u00e1bhachtach, t\u00e1 d\u00fashl\u00e1in ann. T\u00e1imid d\u00edrithe ar na d\u00fashl\u00e1in sin, agus b\u00edm ag obair le mo chomhghleacaithe Rialtais ina leith. Seasann na ceannasaithe Rialtais \u2013 An Taoiseach, An T\u00e1naiste agus an tAire St\u00e1it, an Teachta Canney - leis an sprioc sin. Beimid, i ngach cuid den Rialtas, ag obair chun an sprioc 20% a bhaint amach chomh luath agus is f\u00e9idir. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh agus aonta\u00edodh an cheist."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Tuairisc\u00edodh an Bille gan leas\u00fa."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Shane Curley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Shane-Curley.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Shane-Curley.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Shane Curley)  Cathain a bhearta\u00edtear an ch\u00e9ad Ch\u00e9im eile a th\u00f3g\u00e1il? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"PJ Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/PJ-Murphy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"PJ-Murphy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator P. J. Murphy  Anois. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Shane Curley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Shane-Curley.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Shane-Curley.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Shane Curley)  An bhfuil s\u00e9 sin aontaithe? Aontaithe. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Glactar an Bille chun an breithni\u00fa deiridh a dh\u00e9anamh air."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Shane Curley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Shane-Curley.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Shane-Curley.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Shane Curley)  Cathain a bhearta\u00edtear an ch\u00e9ad Ch\u00e9im eile a th\u00f3g\u00e1il? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"PJ Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/PJ-Murphy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"PJ-Murphy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator P. J. Murphy  Anois. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Shane Curley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Shane-Curley.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Shane-Curley.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Shane Curley)  An bhfuil s\u00e9 sin aontaithe? Aontaithe. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an cheist: \u201cGo rithfear an Bille anois\u201d, agus faisn\u00e9iseadh go rabhthas tar \u00e9is glacadh l\u00e9i."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionra\u00ed ar 4.32 p.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 4.48 p.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Sitting suspended at 4.32 p.m. and resumed at 4.48 p.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"\u00dadar\u00e1s na Gaeltachta (Amendment) Bill 2024: C\u00e9im an Choiste agus na C\u00e9imeanna a bheidh F\u00e1gtha"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-23\/debate\/dbsect_13","debateType":"debate","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2025\/34","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2025\/34\/seanad\/2","houseCode":"seanad","stage":"2","isBillStage":true,"showAs":"Criminal Justice (Terrorist Offences) (Amendment) Bill 2025: Second Stage (Seanad)"}},"showAs":"Criminal Justice (Terrorist Offences) (Amendment) Bill 2025: Second Stage","counts":{"speechCount":2,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_13","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question proposed: \"That the Bill be now read a Second Time.\""},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Brophy, and his officials to the Chamber. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration (Deputy Colm Brophy)  I am pleased to introduce this Bill following its recent passage through D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann. It marks a significant step forward in ensuring Ireland's counterterrorism framework is robust and fit for purpose in the face of modern terrorism threats. The Bill will amend the Criminal Justice (Terrorist Offences) Act 2005, which I will refer to as the 2005 Act and is a cornerstone of Ireland's counterterrorism laws. It will allow for a broader category of prosecutable offences in respect of terrorist activity. These include terrorist acts with a cross-Border element and cyberattacks where the aim is to cause widespread harm.  This legislation is part of Ireland's commitment to bring our terrorism laws into line with other EU member states through participation in the EU's directive on combating terrorism, which the Bill transposes into Irish law. Its passing will also pave the way for Ireland's participation in enhanced EU counterterrorism networks, enabling a co-ordinated and dynamic response to domestic and cross-border terrorist threats. Enactment of the Bill is a commitment in the programme for Government and supports the broader programme commitment to strengthen national security.  Ireland already has comprehensive counterterrorism laws, found in the 2005 Act and the Offences against the State Acts.  The 2005 Act, in particular, represents a response by Ireland to the shared threat terrorism poses across the EU and beyond. Successive EU counterterrorism agreements have been given effect to in Ireland via this Act. This has resulted in a harmonised definition of terrorist offences with our EU counterparts, as well as minimum rules when it comes to sentencing terrorist offences. This provides a benchmark for co-operation and information exchange between national authorities and prevents the existence of legal loopholes that might be exploited by terrorists.  Notwithstanding this, the nature of terrorism continues to evolve and adapt. In 2017, in response to the growing threat posed by people travelling abroad for the purpose of terrorism, the heightened security threat they pose from returning home and the increasing threats from citizens inspired or instructed by terrorist groups abroad, the EU updated its counterterrorism framework with the directive on combating terrorism. This followed concern expressed by the UN Security Council over these threats and an instruction to UN member states to ensure domestic laws were sufficient to prosecute and penalise such activities. The EU's directive on combating terrorism reaffirmed many of the Union's established counterterrorism measures and terrorist offences.  With Ireland having fully incorporated such measures into our national law and practises, it meant that Irish law was already aligned with many of the requirements of the directive. However, new offences were also introduced to tackle the international and cross-border dimension to terrorist threat previously discussed. It remains incumbent on Ireland to now transpose these offences into national law.  Travel for the purpose of terrorism is a new offence the Bill incorporates. This recognises the need to stem the flow of terrorist fighters in and out of the country, both travelling to and from Ireland, for the purpose of committing, aiding or abetting, counselling or procuring the commission of terrorism and for it to be criminalised. The act of organising or facilitating travel for the purpose of terrorism will also be an offence, with the same elements as the same travel offence save for the prohibited act being that of making arrangements to enable any person to travel to or from the State for the purpose of terrorism.  The Bill criminalises receiving training for the purpose of terrorism. This will complement the offences of providing training for terrorism, which is already on our Statute Book. It addresses threats resulting from actively preparing for the commission of terrorist offences, which can be committed by those ultimately acting alone and training through self-study. It can involve receiving in the making of explosives, chemical or biological weapons and other relevant technical expertise. Like with the offence of providing training for terrorism, there will be a ministerial regulation-making power in terms of prohibiting other weapons and techniques that could be part of such training. This means that should new technologies, materials or practices be developed in the future that could be used to carry out terrorist attacks, there is scope to preclude training in their use. Knowledge that the training is for the purpose of committing or aiding and abetting, counselling or procuring the commission of terrorism is required to be convicted of this crime. This means that collecting materials for legitimate purposes, such as academic research, would not be considered to be receiving training for terrorism.  Under our counterterrorism laws, it is an offence to distribute public messages aimed at provoking the commission of terrorist offences. Publicly sharing messages with invitations to join terrorist groups, calls to action or denigrating victims of terrorism is prohibited where such behaviour is intended to and causes a danger that terrorist acts may be committed. In recent years, sophisticated digital messaging tools, including high-quality video, assisted by a network of social media accounts, have allowed for the rapid dissemination of terrorist messaging. This has included videos celebrating or praising horrendous terrorist acts like assassinations and terrorist bombings. This Bill rearticulates the offence of public provocation to commit terrorism to clarify that such provocation can be done by distributing messages that glorify terrorism. Conviction for the offences I have just spoken about can lead to a maximum prison sentence of ten years.  circumstance as an aggravating factor when sentencing offenders. This recognises the particular egregious nature of luring minors into the world of terrorism.  It is acknowledged that the activities these offences prohibit involve commonplace acts, such as travel, study or indeed, the sharing of content on public platforms, which is now widespread and a daily occurrence in our lives. These are acts that, in a free and modern society, we should be at liberty to participate and engage in and enjoy unconstrained when carried out without nefarious aims. This is why the notion of terrorist intention will always be an essential element required to convict someone of the offences in this Bill with the intentional nature of an act inferred from objective and factual circumstances.  For example, it will be necessary to show that the intention was to provoke the commissioning of terrorist acts when publicly sharing messages glorifying terrorism. Furthermore, there must also be reasonable apprehension that the commission of a terrorist activity could, in fact, result.  The Bill will also categorise cyber offences already on our Statute Book as terrorist offences, thereby allowing for extra years to be added to terms of imprisonment for those convicted in circumstances where such acts are intended to cause widespread harm. These are offences of interfering with or damaging data on IT systems, the result of which could be serious damage to the State or international organisations, major economic loss or the creation of a collective danger to the lives of citizens. In recent years, we have seen the destruction and devastation caused by cyberattacks on national infrastructure. These are grave affronts to our society, and it is appropriate that they be treated as terrorist offences. Potential offenders should know that they will meet the full force of law should they proceed to carry out such attacks.  I mentioned that this Bill will pave the way for Ireland\u2019s participation in enhanced counterterrorism networks. Once enacted and when Ireland is fully participating in the EU directive on combating terrorism, which I spoke about earlier, we will be in a position to adopt subsequent EU counterterrorism measures. This includes partaking in a programme of modernisation occurring at Eurojust, the European Union Agency for Criminal Justice Cooperation, which co-ordinates investigations and information exchange in relation to cross-border crime across Europe. Its modernisation programme includes strengthening its counterterrorism register and case management system. This means that cross-border links between terrorism investigations and prosecutions will be more easily and readily identified and information more swiftly shared among member states via secure digital communication channels. Ultimately, that will lead to more terrorist acts being prevented and more terrorists being brought to justice.  The Bill also contains a range of technical amendments to the Criminal Justice (Terrorist Offences) Act 2005. These largely stem from the requirements of the directive that have been inserted to ensure full compliance with it, as well as amendments that restructure certain sections of the Act. The latter do not seek to change the substance of these sections, but, rather, are proposed to enhance legal clarity and precision.  The Bill contains 13 sections and one Schedule. Section 1 simply clarifies that the references to the principal Act relate to the Criminal Justice (Terrorist Offences) Act 2005, which is being amended here.  Section 2 amends section 4 of the 2005 Act by replacing references to the 2002 EU Council framework decision on combating terrorism with that of the 2017 EU directive on combating terrorism, which will be the new EU governing instrument underlying our international counterterrorism laws once this Bill is passed. This section signposts new definitions for offences found in the later sections of the Bill. This includes definitions for three new offences of receiving training for terrorism, travelling for the purpose of terrorism, and organising or otherwise facilitating travel for the purpose of terrorism. It also signposts the existing offence of providing training for terrorism, which is redefined in the Bill and brings the definition of \"terrorist group\" into line with that of the directive. The section rephrases the definitions for terrorist activity and terrorist-linked activity, which forms the basis for the offence of engaging in those activities. The rephrasing is in pursuit of legal clarity and precision, particularly in relation to when those activities are committed outside the State, rather than a substantive change to their meaning.  Section 3 provides for a revised definition of the offence of public provocation to commit a terrorist offence, which is an offence already in the 2005 Act, as required under the directive. The revised definition sets out that distributing public messages that glorify terrorist activity can be considered as committing the offence of publicly provoking terrorism. This is in addition to distributing messages that more explicitly encourage terrorism. The definition also requires that other critical elements must be satisfied for the offence to be prosecuted. Those other critical elements are that it must be shown that the alleged offender possessed the requisite intention of inciting persons to commit a terrorist activity. It is also a requirement that the distribution or publication of a message inciting or glorifying terrorism must have given rise to the reasonable apprehension that the commission of a terrorist act would result. These additional elements inserted into the new definition of this offence serve as safeguards to ensure that only those who set about deliberately inciting terrorism are captured by the offence. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Additional debate to follow. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Criminal Justice (Terrorist Offences) (Amendment) Bill 2025: Second Stage"}]}}]},"contextDate":"2026-06-23"},{"debateRecord":{"house":{"showAs":"34th D\u00e1il","committeeCode":"","houseCode":"dail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/house\/dail\/34","chamberType":"house","houseNo":"34"},"chamber":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/def\/house\/dail","showAs":"D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann"},"lastUpdated":"2026-06-23T18:36:08+00:00","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-23\/debate\/main","formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-23\/debate\/mul@\/main.xml"},"pdf":null},"date":"2026-06-23","counts":{"contributorCount":155,"divisionCount":1,"debateSectionCount":5,"questionCount":0,"billCount":2},"debateType":"debate","debateSections":[{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-23\/debate\/dbsect_2","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna \u00f3 Cheannair\u00ed - Leaders' Questions","counts":{"speechCount":21,"speakerCount":7},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Holly Cairns","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Holly-Cairns.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Holly-Cairns.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Deputies","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pearse Doherty  \"T\u00e1im ag iarraidh go nglacfaidh an Rialtas lena fhreagracht agus, ar a laghad, go dtabharfaidh siad s\u00edoch\u00e1in d\u00fainn ag deireadh \u00e1r r\u00e9.\" Is iad seo na focail \u00f3 bhean amh\u00e1in de chuid mhn\u00e1 Dh\u00fan Dar\u00fa. Is marthan\u00f3ir\u00ed iad a bh\u00ed tar \u00e9is m\u00ed-\u00fas\u00e1id ghn\u00e9asach uaf\u00e1sach a fhulaingt i Scoil N\u00e1isi\u00fanta Dh\u00fan Dar\u00fa i gCorcaigh sna seascaid\u00ed agus sna seacht\u00f3id\u00ed. An inseoidh an Taoiseach d\u00f3ibh inniu go nd\u00e9anfaidh s\u00e9 an rud ceart agus go gcuirfidh s\u00e9 c\u00faiteamh ar f\u00e1il sa d\u00f3igh at\u00e1 ceart agus gan tuilleadh moille?  The following are the words of one of the Dunderrow women:  I want the Government to take responsibility and to at least give us peace at the end of our time. I'm here suffering along with fellow victims who went to a school that was run by the State, and this was done to innocent children. It's totally wrong, totally unfair. I want justice.  These women are survivors of horrific sexual abuse inflicted on children by teacher Leo Hickey at Dunderrow National School in Cork in the sixties and seventies. They have now broken their silence in their quest for justice and for compensation for the State's failure to protect them.  The Taoiseach will recall how Louise O'Keefe, one of Hickey's victims, spent years courageously battling for the State to take responsibility and provide redress. In fact, the Taoiseach was the Minister for education who fought Louise through the Irish courts back in 1998. She was forced to take her case all the way to the European Court of Human Rights and she won that case in 2014. The court found that the State had an obligation to protect children from sexual abuse in State-run schools and to provide redress to survivors.  The judgment meant the State had to pay compensation to Louise O'Keefe but the Irish courts found it was not just her who was abused in that school. We are talking about women whose children were abused by the same person in the same school during the same period but, 12 and a half years on from the European Court of Human Rights judgment, these women are still waiting, still being ignored and still having to fight the State to own up to its responsibilities.  These women are told that they cannot access compensation because they have not previously taken a legal case against the State. Seriously, is the Taoiseach not going to do the right thing for these women who were abused because of some technicality? The State, true to form, wants to drag these women through the courts and wants to force them to take on expensive legal proceedings to get compensation. We have seen this all before, and we know it is cruel. These are women who are now in their 60s and 70s who suffered appalling sexual abuse at the time and whose children were catastrophically failed by the State. It is shameful what is happening to them. The women have suffered enough. They are being retraumatised and being forced into a position where they must sue the State to get what they are entitled to by law, and that is wrong and we all know that.  Louise O'Keefe summed up the injustice perfectly when she said, \"I was abused by Leo Hickey in Dunderrow school. The Dunderrow women were also abused by Leo Hickey in Dunderrow school. It is time to give these women the redress that is theirs. It is time to do what is right.\" I am asking the Taoiseach today to bring this to an end. I asking him to tell them today that he will do what is right. I asking him to tell them that he will provide redress without any further delay. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  The abuse carried out by Leo Hickey was evil, horrific and deeply harmful to many people who were children at the time that he was in Dunderrow National School in the 1960s. I do appreciate and I am fully conscious of the enormous trauma experienced by the survivors of sexual abuse in that school and abuse carried out by Leo Hickey. It is important that their voices are heard and listened to. In 2014, the European Court of Human Rights found that in respect of day schools the State failed in its obligation in specific circumstances to protect Louise O'Keefe from sexual abuse by Leo Hickey. This was not the Irish courts but the European Court of Human Rights.  The key issue was the absence of any safeguarding advices or Children First guidelines. All of that was not in place at the time. That was not advised to what was a diocesan school at the time. That was the key underlying reason for the decision of the European Court of Human Rights. Since then, a number of measures have been put in place to implement the judgment, including an ex gratia payment scheme. That said, in 2015 the then Government established an ex gratia scheme of payments for victims of abuse by teachers and other school employees that was designed to ensure the implementation of the judgment. However, that scheme was not adequate at all, and it was reviewed in 2019 by an independent assessor, Mr. Justice Iarfhlaith O'Neill. This involves some who were in Dunderrow but others who were not in Dunderrow. The scope of the scheme was expanded following Mr. Justice O'Neill's conclusions and there was a more straightforward process. Some 193 applications were made to the revised ex gratia scheme and a total of \u20ac10.75 million has issued to about 128 approved applicants. The scheme closed to applications in July 2023.  Meanwhile, as Members know, the scoping inquiry into historical sexual abuse in day and boarding schools more generally run by religious orders published in 2024 recognised the significance of the issues for survivors and their expressed wish that those running those schools where sexual abuse occurred should be held accountable financially. An interdepartmental group was then established in the aftermath of the scoping report to work on each of the recommendations, particularly in the context of redress. The interdepartmental group recognised that consideration of a redress payment scheme, more generally, has far-reaching implications and it is doing further detailed work in respect of that.  The survivors of the abuse by Leo Hickey from Dunderrow, through their legal representatives, have sought mediation. As I have said, legal advice is that we would enter into mediation. We will enter into a mediation in good faith and we will engage constructively.  I said that earlier this morning. Admha\u00edm gur fhulaing na mn\u00e1 agus na dalta\u00ed go han-mh\u00f3r ar fad as ucht an m\u00e9id a rinne an m\u00fainteoir Leo Hickey. Bh\u00ed s\u00e9 uaf\u00e1sach agus go hainnis. Admha\u00edm go bhfuil tr\u00e1ma faoi leith ann do na daoine at\u00e1 f\u00f3s ag fulaingt as ucht an m\u00e9id a rinne s\u00e9. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pearse Doherty  The plea from the survivors of the abuse at Dunderrow is: give us peace at the end of our days; we want justice. They are asking how long do they have to wait? This goes right back to 1998 when the Taoiseach was the Minister at the time. That is nearly 30 years ago. It is twelve and a half years since the European court made a judgment that the State was liable and we are hearing words from Ministers and taoisigh about mediation and about listening when the survivors are asking for peace at the end of their days and for justice. I am asking the Taoiseach a very simple question because he knows. Louise O'Keefe had to win her case and fight her battles in the European court and have compensation paid to her but the Taoiseach knows that the Irish courts have made it very clear that other women were abused in that school by the same teacher at the same time. Will the Taoiseach say to these women that, yes, compensation will be paid to them, that we hear them and we see them and that we are going to set this right? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  To set the record straight, back in 1998 and 1999 the issue was industrial schools. I created a commission into abuse that happened in industrial schools. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire  The first proceedings were lodged in 1998. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  I want to put that on the record. It was the first time ever any Irish Government established a commission of inquiry into abuse in schools and that was in the context of industrial schools. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pearse Doherty  The Taoiseach was named in the Louise O'Keefe case, in fairness. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  I want to make that point. It was many years later when this particular case came to the Irish courts and then it went on to the European Court of Human Rights. That said, various ex gratia payment schemes were developed in respect of Dunderrow and others who were party to the case at the European court. As I said earlier, about 193 applications were made. About 128 were approved under the ex gratia payment scheme. We are going to enter into remediation at this stage in good faith. We have a wider issue which the interdepartmental group is examining in terms of both redress and the implications of all that for the State, for survivors and for religious orders in terms of their culpability and accountability in respect of contributing to redress. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Holly Cairns","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Holly-Cairns.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Holly-Cairns.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Holly Cairns  I want to read into the record the testimonies of two women who were sexually abused by Leo Hickey, their principal in Dunderrow National School in Kinsale. One said:  Sometimes while abusing me with his right hand, I would see him put his left hand inside the clothes on the lower part of the body of the girl beside me. Again, this could last for the duration of the class.  Another said:  I remember feeling something hard pressed against the small of my back and I remember wondering what this hard object was. I thought it was something in his pocket. This seemed to happen for a long time, but it probably lasted about ten minutes. I remember wanting to get out to play before the break would be over ...  These women and 17 of their schoolmates are, rightly, seeking redress for what was done to them as children. They were failed by every system that was supposed to protect them and they are still being failed today.  Leo Hickey was eventually convicted while the State managed to evade all responsibility. I spoke to Louise O'Keefe today, who spent 16 years fighting to change that. The State fought her, in her words, \"tooth and nail\" every step of the way, pursuing her through the courts and aggressively seeking legal costs against her. In 2014, she finally won at the European Court of Human Rights, which found the State had failed in its duty to protect children.  That judgment should have been a turning point. Instead, in a textbook Irish Government approach to how it treats survivors of abuse, the redress scheme excluded the very people it was supposed to help. Incredibly, 19 victims of Leo Hickey - women whose evidence helped secure his conviction - have been denied redress. Their testimony was good enough for the criminal court but somehow is not good enough for the State. It is unbelievable.  In 2019, the Taoiseach stood on this side of the House and said that the O'Keefe judgment demands that every child who experienced sexual abuse in a defective child protection framework in schools be compensated for that abuse. He also said that redress should not wait for the results of any commission of investigation. Survivors do not need another review, report or excuse. They need a Government willing to do what the Taoiseach himself called for.  I have two questions. Does the Taoiseach recognise the ruling of the European Court of Human Rights and if so, will he commit to providing fair redress to all survivors without arbitrary barriers? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  First of all, I thank the Deputy for again raising this issue. As I have said, the abuse committed by Leo Hickey was horrific and unconscionable. The suffering and trauma people went through because of him has been life lasting. The Deputy is correct that in 2019, I advocated very strongly that the original redress scheme of 2015 was far too limited. That led to the appointment of Mr. Justice Iarfhlaith O'Neill to recommend an expansion of the ex gratia payment scheme. That is what I have already referenced; that opened it up to some degree back then to 128 people. Obviously, not all were in Dunderrow but I did not have the identities of all of them. I represented one or two people myself from outside of Dunderrow, who had come to me as a TD at the time because I was not in Government then. That person would have received compensation at the time but even that is at a modest level, if I am honest.  The legal representatives wrote to the Attorney General last week. As I said, we are going to engage in a constructive way and I do want to see a resolution of this. There are also wider implications in the context of what emerged in the last number of years in some religious-run secondary schools, which led to the scoping inquiry that recommended a full inquiry - which we have established - into abuse in primary schools and all schools across the country. There is also the issue of redress and how that would be handled. An interdepartmental group was established to deal with that, which will have far-reaching implications all round but also with regard to accountability and responsibility.  The established mechanism was that where schools were run by the diocesan authorities or by religious orders, it was those that were primarily culpable in terms of abuse that happened. In the context of Dunderrow, of course, in the 1960s, this was pre any official guidelines from the State or Government to these patron bodies in respect of safeguarding children and guidelines that we have today, like Children First. We have a far greater framework of laws and guidelines to try and protect children, which did not exist then. That is the area where the European court found the State culpable in respect of adequate safeguarding not being provided to schools at that particular time. We will take this forward and revert to the House in due course. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Holly Cairns","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Holly-Cairns.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Holly-Cairns.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Holly Cairns  What the Taoiseach has highlighted is the well-established practice of the State. At the hands of the State, people are seriously and systematically abused. They try to seek justice. There is delay after delay, an interdepartmental group, a commission of investigation, and a redress scheme that is blatantly cruel and excludes the people who need it, then the State does it all again with another redress scheme that also does not work.  It is delay, delay and consult. The Taoiseach said today he should positively engage and listen to these people. I spoke to Louise O'Keefe this morning. She said she met the Taoiseach in March 2025 and he said he would get back to her in a month. She has not heard from the Taoiseach since. This is not engaging positively.  She went to the European Court of Human Rights after fighting the State for over a decade. She won. Eighteen other people were abused in the same school by the same man. Their testimony was used in the criminal court to convict him but the Taoiseach will not take that as good enough to provide the redress these people have been waiting over a decade for. The Taoiseach will delay more with another interdepartmental group and another redress scheme. Why will he not commit to giving these people what they are entitled to now and end this despicable practice of disregarding survivors and delaying, delaying and delaying? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Deputies","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputies  Hear, hear. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  It is not delay, delay, delay in respect of the mediation that has been sought by the representatives of the survivors of the abuse by Leo Hickey. We will engage in that mediation. There is a wider redress issue that has to be examined in the context of schools in general across the nation over the last number of decades. That is the point I am making. This has been in a legal framework for quite some time as well. I have no issue meeting with people but the Government has to resolve this as well and come to conclusions in respect of it. I am clear on what we need to do, specifically in terms of these survivors of this particular abuse but there will be others as well. There will be other schools and a need for further responses in different contexts. That was the idea of the overall comprehensive inquiry and the idea of the interdepartmental group to examine how we deal with all of these issues, not just in one or two schools but the generality of where abuse has taken place. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ivana Bacik  Over recent days, we have once again been confronted with some of the darkest chapters in the history of this island. Yesterday saw the conviction of former DUP leader Jeffrey Donaldson for horrific sex offences against children. Today, survivors of systematic sexual abuse, perpetrated upon them by Leo Hickey at Dunderrow National School, have come forward to share their harrowing ordeal. Still excluded from existing State redress schemes, they are calling for an effective route to recognition for the horrific campaign of abuse they suffered as children. Last night, we heard the final episode of RT\u00c9\u2019s \"Pirate Predator\" documentary, with renewed calls from survivors for an inquiry into the State\u2019s failures to apprehend the prolific and violent sex offender Eamon Cooke. Last week, we learned of the death of paedophile Bill Kenneally, whose crimes destroyed numerous young lives and many of whose victims are still seeking justice. I want to begin by paying tribute to every survivor of child sexual abuse. Survivors have shown extraordinary courage in coming forward. As they tell us, many are still fighting for justice and to be heard.  A common theme runs through these appalling cases of child sexual abuse: power and silence; abuse of power by monstrous predators; and silence from the institutions of both State and church that should have been protecting children. The church and the State have a duty to make amends for decades of their failures towards victims. We know the commission of investigation into abuse in schools is under way and that an interdepartmental group is examining options for future redress. That report is due in May next year. Its recommendations must be survivor-led. These may require significant legislative and policy reform, but there are things we can do now to deliver justice for survivors.  The first is in respect of the Dunderrow survivors. I spoke again today with a representative from the group of women. They want to see action. They heard what the Taoiseach said about listening to them but they want action and they want redress. Second, the T\u00e1naiste has said that religious orders must pay their fair share of redress - I agree with him and I welcome his comments. The Taoiseach will know that the Labour Party has a Bill before this House on Thursday in my name. It is a Bill to enable survivors of institutional child sexual abuse to pursue redress from religious orders, which have substantial assets. An analysis of finances from a sample group of congregations showed that collectively they had about \u20ac1.3 billion in cash and other assets. Yet, they owe the State \u20ac750 million in unpaid redress in respect of those who were abused in schools and institutions that were run by religious orders. Our Bill would end an indefensible practice from religious orders that purport to show moral leadership, yet are refusing to pay redress and are shifting assets to put them out of reach of survivors.  All institutions in both State and church that facilitated or enabled abuse of children should pay redress. We want to hear from the Taoiseach about justice and redress for Dunderrow survivors, and about what the Government attitude will be to our Bill on Thursday. Will it facilitate the Bill's passage? We have spoken before about it. The Taoiseach said he would refer it to the Attorney General and I know his interdepartmental group is looking at mechanisms to pursue religious orders for redress, but survivors cannot wait. The commission of investigation is not due to report for three or four years and the interdepartmental group in a year's time. There are things we can be doing now for survivors. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  I thank the Deputy for raising this issue. If we look back over the last three decades, we have had numerous episodes or revelations pertaining to institutions both public and private in respect of child sexual abuse. It has been quite horrific. I refer to governments from about the late 1990s onwards and the 1999 period onwards when we first initiated the inquiry into industrial schools. I recall the anger when the State paid up close to \u20ac1 billion in redress. Everybody attacked the government of the day, of which I was a member, because the accusation was we left the religious off. I never accepted this fully by the way because I felt the State had culpability there too, in terms of inspectorial reports and so on. The State always had culpability in respect of its involvement in the industrial schools. As to the capacity to get money at the time, we did not want to put victims and survivors at that time through years and years of courts. Then, we had the swimming abuse inquiry. We had a series of diocesan inquiries, which the government initiated against Cloyne and against Dublin. I remember the Ferns inquiry, for example, and further abuses and revelations right up to the present day in respect of the Spiritans and of schools more generally.  We are now in a situation where we have a comprehensive commission of inquiry into schools, which we did not have before. The situation has evolved. There was a time prior to the nineties when the State did not habitually establish commissions of inquiry into abuse, but from the late 1990s onwards Irish society was opened up in many respects. It was not opened up completely, not comprehensively, but in many respects. A torrent of abuse has emerged in all aspects of life, it seems to me. We can look at the SAVI report going back along and the context in which it reported in respect of its estimations of the nature of abuse.  That said, on religious orders, the Government's position on the Labour Party's legislation will be a six-month timed amendment. We believe it aligns with Government policy. We are not in disagreement with the intent or purpose of what the Labour Party is proposing legislatively. We will support that. We are entering into mediation in respect of Dunderrow. We will try to progress that as quickly and as effectively as we can, while also knowing we have a broader issue to deal with, as the Deputy has said, in respect of the interdepartmental group. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ivana Bacik  I certainly do not need a lecture on the vile history of child sexual abuse and State and church cover-up in this country. I represented survivors of abuse in the 1990s before the Residential Institutions Redress Board. I recall the flaws in that scheme, which I have spoken about before. I also recall the 2002 agreement, the shameful Michael Woods agreement, which capped the contribution of religious orders at a fraction of that \u20ac1.5 billion cost the Taoiseach rightly pointed out. Of course, religious orders should pay more, but given opportunities multiple times since 2002 they have failed to do so. That is why the Labour Party is proposing this constructive Bill. I welcome the Taoiseach's indication that the Government will support that Bill on Thursday and will look to see it brought into law as it aligns - as it absolutely should - with Government policy.  Over the decades since the Ryan report, with all of the revelations and all the bravery and courage of survivors, we have learned so much about church and State cover-ups. The practical steps we take now are what is important. I welcome the Taoiseach's comments on our redress Bill. It does offer a way forward. It gives the State leverage to pursue religious orders for unpaid redress. Second, I ask precisely what the Taoiseach means by mediation for the Dunderrow victims.  This group of 19 women are absolutely right to seek redress now in respect of the abuse they suffered at the hands of Leo Hickey. What does the Taoiseach mean by \"mediation\"? What is the timeline? Can these women secure redress before we see the very welcome further developments at a broader level through the interdepartmental group? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  The legal representatives of the Dunderrow survivors have written to the Government and to the Minister inviting the Government to enter mediation with their clients with a view to resolving their claim against the State. That is what I said this morning. We will respond positively to that invitation. Those are the specifics of the request. This correspondence arrived in the past week or ten days. That is the factual and specific response to that point. On the broader issue, the interdepartmental group is due to report next year. We will see if we can bring that forward. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Roderic O'Gorman  In April of this year, 46% of our country's electricity came from wind and a further 7% came from solar. That 53% of our electricity or 1,300 GWh of clean renewable electricity in a single month. A key problem with the electricity system in Ireland is that we do not have the energy storage capacity to take full advantage of renewable energy when those conditions are right. At times, renewable producers are directed to create less energy than they have capacity to generate. The system uses technical language like \"curtailment\" or \"dispatch down\" for this but there is a simpler word, \"waste\". In the middle of a worldwide energy crisis, when Irish households' electricity bills are shooting up, renewable energy is being wasted at scale. According to EirGrid, in April 2026, 18% of wind energy was wasted.  This is why we need more energy storage in Ireland. The concept is simple. Battery storage captures renewable electricity when wind and solar production is high and releases it back onto our grid when demand is high. A significant number of battery storage systems have been granted planning permission here in Ireland. However, when Energy Storage Ireland presented to us in audiovisual room recently, the key barrier it set out was a lack of routes to market access. The last Government published the electricity storage policy framework in July 2024, almost two years ago. This included ten actions. Action 7 required the Taoiseach's Government to set a long-term target for the amount of battery storage needed in order to give an indication to the industry of how much battery storage is anticipated. Action 9 requires the creation of a market framework to incentivise energy storage technologies. Wind and solar electricity have the renewable energy support scheme. Energy storage needs similar financial certainty to incentivise development.  Two years after the publication of that framework, these two actions have not been achieved. As a result, millions of euro worth of renewable energy, renewable electricity, is being squandered. The problem here is not judicial reviews, gold-plated environmental regulations or the climate action Act. The problem is the failure of the Government to prioritise the detailed policy work that is needed to ensure that this technology can work for Irish consumers and for the Irish economy. Will the Taoiseach commit to his Government setting a clear target for long-term energy storage needs in Ireland by the end of this year? Will he also commit to putting in place a renewable energy support scheme for battery storage by the middle of 2027 so that this waste of renewable electricity will come to an end? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  What the Deputy said at the beginning is true. We are making very significant progress on renewable energy in this country. We have reached a record of circa 8 GW of renewable energy generation capacity, which is up from 4.8 GW in 2020. Onshore wind now provides very significant levels of power. Last year, we hit the important milestone of 5 GW of installed onshore wind capacity. We also reached the milestone of 2GW of installed solar capacity last November.  In terms of solar generated electricity, in April we reached a peak of 1 GW on the grid. That is enough power for around 500,000 people. Solar generation went from zero to replace coal as the third highest source of indigenous generation in less than a decade. This is the progress we are making. There is about 1.91 GW of electricity storage systems with planning permission and connection contracts pending fulfilment with EirGrid as of last December. As the Deputy knows, we are pursuing offshore wind capacity. Particularly in terms of the auctions that were concluded over the past two years, if we can get those developed, then we will be in a very significant position in terms of renewables powering the majority of electricity.  On the storage issue more generally, we will commit to setting a target. In terms of an incentive scheme or grants, as the Deputy has outlined, I will revert to the Minister in respect of that. Again, that is something that will be assessed. More broadly, the technology is improving all the time. There is a significant degree of private sector investment in the storage area, also. I have witnessed some of this at some of the openings we have been at. For example, in the midlands in particular, we will see further developments in that regard. However, we have made a lot of progress. We can make more progress. When the Deputy said it is wasted and so on, it is an issue of technology and technology catching up in terms of that storage area. That has been an evolving story for the past number of years. It is not quite there yet but it is making huge progress. We will do everything that we can to support it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Roderic O'Gorman  With respect, while the Taoiseach is right that it is an issue of technology, the solution is there. The solution is there in terms of battery storage and we do not have enough of it. What representatives of the industry told all Members of the Oireachtas from the Opposition to the Government when they were in with us is that the two key barriers to them are the lack of a national target for how much the Government thinks in terms of energy support that is needed and that support system to help them to deliver it. The Taoiseach is right that planning permission has been granted for plenty of battery storage units around the country but they will not get the financing if they do not see that there is a clear route to market access. The companies that are looking to set up here are mobile. They can support it in Germany or other European countries - the countries that actually have put in the work to put in those support frameworks to make it financially viable. What is needed is here is focus on getting through the policy blockages that exist and that can actually ensure that this technology that is available can deliver lower price energy for Irish consumers. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  The Minister is pursuing these issues across the board. We certainly we engage in respect of a support system. When any industry comes looking for a support system, it is reasonable that the Government approaches that in terms of value for money, representing the taxpayer and to make sure that we do it properly and right. I will engage with Minister in respect of the issues the Deputy has raised now and revert to him. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna \u00f3 Cheannair\u00ed - Leaders' Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-23\/debate\/dbsect_3","debateType":"orderofBusiness","bill":null,"showAs":"An tOrd Gn\u00f3 - Order of Business","counts":{"speechCount":60,"speakerCount":23},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Duncan Smith","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Duncan-Smith.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Duncan-Smith.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Daniel Ennis","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Daniel-Ennis.D.2026-05-25","memberCode":"Daniel-Ennis.D.2026-05-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jen Cummins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Johnny Mythen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Johnny-Mythen.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Johnny-Mythen.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Clendennen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Deputy Mary Butler)  I move:  I move:  Tuesday's business shall be:  - Motion re Proposed approval by D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann of the Data Protection Act 2018 (Section 51(3)) and (Section 60(6)) (Commission of Investigation into the Handling of Historical Child Sexual Abuse in Day and Boarding Schools) Regulations 2026 (without debate and any division claimed to be taken immediately)  - Dublin Airport (Passenger Capacity) Bill 2026 (Second Stage) (to conclude after the first round, not to exceed 3 hours and 34 minutes)  - Motion re Offences Against the State (Amendment) Act 1998  - Motion re Criminal Justice (Amendment) Act 2009  Tuesday's private members' business shall be the Motion re Dental and Orthodontic Services, selected by Sinn F\u00e9in.  Wednesday's business shall be:  - Statements on Pride (not to exceed 2 hours and 25 minutes)  - Regulation of Artificial Intelligence Bill 2026 (Second Stage) (to conclude after the first round, not to exceed 3 hours and 34 minutes)  - Public Health (Tobacco Products and Nicotine Inhaling Products) (Amendment) Bill 2026 (Report and Final Stages) (to commence no earlier than 8 p.m. and to conclude within 30 minutes)  - National Treasury Management Agency (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2026 (Report and Final Stages) (to conclude within 1 hour)  Wednesday's private members' business shall be the Motion re State Responsibility for Risk in Defective Concrete Homes, selected by Independent and Parties Technical Group.  Thursday's business shall be:  - Development (Strategic Gas Reserve) Bill 2026 (Second Stage) (to conclude after the first round, not to exceed 3 hours and 34 minutes and any division claimed to be taken immediately prior to Committee Stage on Tuesday, 30th June, 2026)  Thursday evening business shall be the Second Stage of the Civil Liability (Child Sexual Abuse Proceedings Against Unincorporated Bodies of Persons) Bill 2025, sponsored by Deputy Ivana Bacik.  Proposed Arrangements for this week\u2019s business:  In relation to Tuesday\u2019s business, it is proposed that:  1. notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders:  (a) the time allotted for Government Business shall be extended in accordance with the arrangements for that business, and the D\u00e1il may sit later than 10.48 p.m.;  (b) Parliamentary Questions to the Taoiseach pursuant to Standing Order 47(1) shall not be taken, and Government business shall commence at the time when Parliamentary Questions to the Taoiseach would normally be taken; and  (c) private members' business may be taken later than 6.12 p.m. and shall in any event be taken on the conclusion of proceedings on Motion re Offences Against the State (Amendment) Act 1998 and Motion re Criminal Justice (Amendment) Act 2009, with consequential effect on the commencement time for the items following in the ordinary routine of business;  2. the proceedings on the Motion re Proposed approval by D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann of the Data Protection Act 2018 (Section 51(3)) and (Section 60(6)) (Commission of Investigation into the Handling of Historical Child Sexual Abuse in Day and Boarding Schools) Regulations 2026 shall be taken without debate and any division claimed thereon shall be taken immediately;  3. the proceedings on the Second Stage of the Dublin Airport (Passenger Capacity) Bill 2026 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at the end of the first speaking round and the following arrangements shall apply thereto:  (a) the first-round speeches shall be in accordance with the table below (to be read across);  (b) on the conclusion of the first speaking round or where speeches conclude before the 3 hours and 24 minutes have elapsed and no other member is offering, a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a speech in reply which shall not exceed 10 minutes, whereupon proceedings shall be brought to a conclusion; and  (c) members may share time; and          Gov      SF      SD      Gov      SF       Mins    20    20    20    12    4           Lab      Gov      SF      IPTG      Gov       Mins    20    12    4    20    12           SF      ITG      Gov      SF      OM       Mins    4    20    12    4    20                           Total: 3 hours 24 mins      4. the proceedings on the Motion re Offences Against the State (Amendment) Act and Motion re Criminal Justice (Amendment) Act 2009 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 80 minutes and the following arrangements shall apply thereto:  (a) the two motions shall be debated together, with separate questions put on proceedings thereon;  (b) the order of speaking and allocation of time shall be as follows:-  \u2014 opening speech by a Minister or Minister of State \u2013 15 minutes;  \u2014 speeches by representatives of Sinn F\u00e9in - 12 minutes  \u2014 speeches by representatives of the Social Democrats, the Labour Party, Independent and Parties Technical Group, and Independent Technical Group \u2013 9 minutes per party or group;  \u2014 speeches by non-party\/group members \u2013 9 minutes in total; and  (c) speech in response by the Minister \u2013 8 minutes; and  (d) members may share time.  In relation to Wednesday's business, it is proposed that:  1. notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders:  (a) the time allotted for Government Business shall be extended in accordance with the arrangements for that business and the D\u00e1il may sit later than 9.30 p.m.;  (b) the SOS pursuant to Standing Order 25(1) shall be taken immediately following Taoiseach\u2019s Oral Parliamentary Questions pursuant to Standing Order 47(1), which shall be taken at the time when the SOS would normally be taken; and  (c) in the event proceedings on the Second Stage of the Regulation of Artificial Intelligence Bill 2026 conclude before 8 p.m., the sitting shall stand suspended until 8 p.m. when the order of business shall resume with the Public Health (Tobacco and Nicotine Inhaling Products) Bill 2026;  2. the Statements on Pride shall not exceed 2 hours and 25 minutes and the following arrangements shall apply:  (a) the statements, not including the Ministerial response, shall be in accordance with the sequence contained in the table immediately below (to be read across);  (b) following the statements, a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement in reply which shall not exceed 10 minutes; and  (c) members may share time;          Gov      SF      SD      Gov      SF       Mins    25    15    10    10    3           Lab      Gov      SF      IPTG      Gov       Mins    10    10    3    9    10           SF      ITG      Gov      SF      OM       Mins    3    9    10    3    5                           Total: 2 hours 15 mins      3. the proceedings on the Second Stage of the Regulation of Artificial Intelligence Bill 2026 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at the end of the first speaking round and the following arrangements shall apply:  (a) the first-round speeches, not including the Ministerial response, shall be in accordance with the table below (to be read across);  (b) on conclusion of the first speaking round, or where speeches conclude before the 3 hours and 24 minutes have elapsed and no other member is offering, a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a speech in reply which shall not exceed 10 minutes, whereupon proceedings shall be brought to a conclusion; and  (c) members may share time;          Gov      SF      SD      Gov      SF       Mins    20    20    20    12    4           Lab      Gov      SF      IPTG      Gov       Mins    20    12    4    20    12           SF      ITG      Gov      SF      OM       Mins    4    20    12    4    20                           Total: 3 hours 24 mins      4. the proceedings on Report and Final Stages of the Public Health (Tobacco Products and Nicotine Inhaling Products) (Amendment) Bill 2026 shall commence no earlier than 8 p.m. and shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 30 minutes by one question, which shall be put from the Chair, and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Health; and  5. the proceedings on Report and Final Stages of the National Treasury Management Agency (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2026 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 1 hour by one question, which shall be put from the Chair, and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Finance.  In relation to Thursday's business, it is proposed that:  1. notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, topical issues may be taken earlier than 7.24 p.m. with consequential effect on the commencement time for Second Stage of the Civil Liability (Child Sexual Abuse Proceedings Against Unincorporated Bodies of Persons) Bill 2025, and on the time for the adjournment of the D\u00e1il;  2. the proceedings on the Second Stage of the Development (Strategic Gas Reserve) Bill 2026 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at the end of the first speaking round and the following arrangements shall apply thereto:  (a) the first-round speeches shall be in accordance with the table below (to be read across);  (b) on the conclusion of the first speaking round or where speeches conclude before the 3 hours and 24 minutes have elapsed and no other member is offering, a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a speech in reply which shall not exceed 10 minutes, whereupon proceedings shall be brought to a conclusion; Provided that any division claimed on the Second Stage proceedings shall be taken immediately prior to Committee Stage on Tuesday, 30th June 2026; and  (c) members may share time.          Gov      SF      SD      Gov      SF       Mins    20    20    20    12    4           Lab      Gov      SF      IPTG      Gov       Mins    20    12    4    20    12           SF      ITG      Gov      SF      OM       Mins    4    20    12    4    20                           Total: 3 hours 24 mins       "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  Are the proposed arrangements for the week's business agreed to? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Matt Carthy  Not agreed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  I call Deputy Carthy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Matt Carthy  There is chaos reigning in our courts as thousands of cases are being adjourned due to the withdrawal of services by legal aid solicitors. The Government and the Minister are responsible for further backlogging the legal system and for creating havoc for many of the people involved in these cases, including victims. There should be a D\u00e1il debate this week on the proposed changes to the criminal legal aid scheme. Most importantly, the Government and the Minister need to immediately engage with stakeholders and then bring forward viable, workable proposals that deliver the value for money and that reduce the court adjournments but also ensures there is access to justice for everyone who needs it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pearse Doherty  Hear, hear. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  I call Deputy Collins. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Collins  I wish to address the devastating case of 19 women who were sexually abused by the former school principal in Dunderrow National School and who are now being forced to take legal action against the State to seek redress. Given that Louise O'Keefe successfully established before the European Court of Human Rights that the State failed in its duty to protect children, how can the Government justify a situation where other victims of the same abuser in the same school continue to be excluded from redress?  We need statements in the D\u00e1il this week in relation to that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy P\u00e1draig Rice  The proposed public inquiry into Children's Health Ireland is in a state of crisis. At the weekend, two of the advocacy groups representing 900 families pulled out of the scoping inquiry. They did this because they have not been provided with information they need to meaningfully engage with the terms of reference. We called on the Minister to provide this information in March; she has not done so. We need statements in the D\u00e1il this week from the Minister on what steps she will take to get this important public inquiry back on track. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Duncan Smith","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Duncan-Smith.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Duncan-Smith.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Duncan Smith  We are debating Committee Stage amendments to the occupied territories Bill this evening. There could also be another committee meeting on Thursday morning to continue discussion on the Bill. However, the deadline for Report Stage amendments is tomorrow, Wednesday. I ask that the deadline for Report Stage amendments be moved to late Thursday or Friday if Committee Stage goes to Thursday, so that everything is in order and we are not rushing this Bill any more than it is already being rushed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett  I also ask for statements on the issue of historical abuse in schools. The Taoiseach said he will listen to the women from Cork who suffered the most terrible abuse. I raised the case of a man some time ago in the Chamber. He is in 70s and was abused terribly. His whole life has been impacted as a consequence. Coincidentally, he was in with me yesterday. He asked where the redress scheme is, if he is going to be included in it and if he will still be alive when it happens. It is just not acceptable that people who are victims of this abuse and whose lives were damaged permanently do not know the answers to those questions. We need an urgent discussion to answer questions for many people who were victims of this kind of abuse in our schools and about the State's responsibility. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mary Butler  In relation to Report Stage amendments, I will have a word with the Minister after this session and we will look at that to see about the timelines. In relation to everything else that was raised, we can discuss it at the Business Committee on Thursday. We had a very solid Business Committee meeting last week. We have a lot of legislation to get through this week so the Order of Business stands. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  Are the proposed arrangements for this week's business agreed to? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Matt Carthy  They are not. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  Before we take questions on policy or legislation, on behalf of the Government Whip, the Minister of State, Mary Butler, I welcome the Dolmen active retirement group from Waterford to the Public Gallery. I hope you all enjoy your day in Leinster House. You are very welcome. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pearse Doherty  Families of children with additional needs are once again being let down by the Taoiseach's Government's disastrous mishandling of the summer programme, also known as July provision. Parents are still waiting for home tuition and hours to be sanctioned just days before the schools close. Schools are reporting reduced teacher and SNA allocations despite growing demand, while late decisions have made it really hard for people to recruit staff, putting programmes at risk. For children with autism and additional needs, this programme provides vital continuity and support over the summer months. Instead, families now face uncertainty and needless stress because of the Government's failures. This follows the utter chaos in relation to this year's application process.  The Taoiseach really needs to explain to parents, teachers and SNAs across the State why this has happened and what the Government will do to ensure that the summer programme supports children with additional needs and that it will be delivered on time and with the staffing and resources children and families need.  There is a programme in my own county and if they do not get the SNA it is not going ahead. These kids need this support. The programme is supposed to start on Monday. It is not acceptable. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  The Deputy paints a picture of a scheme that is growing and growing year on year but he does not articulate that in his presentation. Funding has grown from about \u20ac12 million back in 2016 to about \u20ac62 million this year, with over 70,000 students participating across 2,000 schools. We have gone from 8,000 students participating to 70,000. That is an enormous, exponential increase in students participating in the summer scheme. The funding has increased by \u20ac42 million. I am told here that no eligible child is being precluded from taking part in the summer programme this year, that all sanction letters to schools that applied to run a programme have issued, and that officials in the Department of education are engaging with schools on an individual basis in relation to the running of their summer programme and staffing allocations. Particularly for complex special educational needs, again, there is provision for SNAs and for teachers. In 2025, there were about 11,500 special needs assistants participating in the programme and similar numbers are expected to participate in this year's programme. For any specifics, I can revert to the Minister.  I would like to welcome the Dolmen group from Butlerstown and Portlaw. They are very welcome. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Daniel Ennis","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Daniel-Ennis.D.2026-05-25","memberCode":"Daniel-Ennis.D.2026-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Daniel Ennis  In the run-up to the by-election, I knocked on close to 40,000 doors and the same issue came up time and time again, affecting constituents in every corner of the constituency: the cost of living. A new report from Barnardos today outlines just how much pressure families are under. It is absolutely shocking. Up to 80% of parents believe their children have been negatively impacted by the cost-of-living crisis. They are parents in every corner of the country, in all our communities, who are struggling and whose children are struggling. Thirty per cent of people said they did not have enough food to feed their children at some point over the last year. It is absolutely shocking. It also shows that more than one third of families went into arrears in their energy bills at some point over the last 12 months. Ireland is one of the richest countries in Europe and we are seeing record levels of homelessness and child poverty, all under the Taoiseach's watch. It is absolutely shameful. This is an emergency and it requires an emergency response. We need a targeted energy credit for low- and middle-income households to give them some relief. Will the Taoiseach commit to that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  Actually, I would disagree with the Deputy's solution. What we did in the budget was child support payments for the lowest income, not the middle but the lowest income, We dramatically increased it and have done for the last two budgets. That is how you tackle poverty. It did reduce in the budget by any yardstick and objective. Over the last number of years, we brought in free primary school books and post-primary school books for children, which is a huge help to families. We have expanded and extended the free hot school meals. There is a universal childcare subsidy. There is a \u20ac280 new baby grant. Hospital inpatient charges were abolished. We have expanded free GP care and free contraception and we have done much more than that. In the forthcoming budget, we are going to focus very much on the child poverty question, as we did in the last budget. It is recognised that increasing child support payments and domiciliary care allowance is a very targeted way of helping those most in need, and that is what we intend to do. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ivana Bacik  I commend the makers of the RT\u00c9 Documentary on One, \"Pirate Predator\", for their chilling investigation into the prolific and powerful Dublin sexual predator and paedophile, Eamon Cooke, the owner of the pirate radio station, Radio Dublin. Cooke has been compared with Jimmy Savile, whom he knew and met on many occasions. The true number of children abused by Cooke is now thought to run potentially to hundreds. I pay tribute to the extraordinary bravery of the women who did come forward, two of whose testimony at last secured Cooke's conviction in 2007 after years of failed attempts to bring him to justice. We owe them gratitude but there is a glaring question outstanding about Cooke: how did he get away with this for so long? In recent days I have had the privilege of speaking directly with a number of the women whom Cooke abused. They have asked me to ask the Taoiseach that question. They are seeking answers as to how Cooke continued to perpetrate abuse for decades, and how he was able to use his position as owner of Radio Dublin and his influence to escape justice. It took more than 20 years after a complaint was first made to the Garda about his abuse before he was finally convicted. Survivors believe his malign influence extended into the Garda and the Church, as well as other powerful networks.  I commend Gerry Kelly in particular and other garda\u00ed who did investigate and enabled him to be brought to justice. Does the Taoiseach support survivors' calls for an inquiry to investigate the State's role in why justice took so long? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  I have not seen the programme. I appreciate that the work that went into the making of that programme. Again, it is another story of horrific abuse as we discussed earlier in terms of the wide-scale prevalence of child sexual abuse in our society and by institutions as well. We have had a number of inquiries and a number of them are being contemplated again in respect of these issues. To a certain extent, the system is being fairly widely stretched in terms of the number of inquiries. I will ask the Minister for Justice, Home Affairs and Migration to examine this in greater detail and I will revert to the Deputy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Seamus Healy  Last week, we had a presentation on stroke awareness and recovery. The session was led by Martin Quinn, a constituent of mine from Bansha in County Tipperary. He is a stroke survivor himself, a national stroke advocate and a lifelong community and voluntary activist at local and national levels. He is a former national president of Muintir na Tire, chair of the Citizens Information Service Network of Companies and an organiser of the Tipperary Peace Convention. At that stroke presentation, he acknowledged the improvement in treatment and rehabilitation in recent years but went on to say that more needs to be done, particularly in the area of additional specialist stroke units, rehabilitation services and support services. He is also the co-ordinator of the South Tipperary Stroke Communication Group, which supports stroke survivors and families and organises national conferences. There is a pressing need for support groups like this throughout the country and for financial support for these groups and I am asking the Government to include in the 2027 budget funding for groups like the South Tipperary Stroke Communication Group and other such stroke groups. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Health (Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill)  I am so glad the Deputy referenced the improvement in stroke care rising from the stroke strategy. We need to continue to drive on with that. It is also important to note the number of step-down beds that are necessary to help stroke patients step out of acute hospitals. I was recently in Blarney with Deputy Colm Burke and others where there is a step-down facility for neurorehabilitation and stroke in particular out of Mercy Hospital. There needs to be more of those community supports for people with stroke to enable their longer-term rehabilitation. The Deputy is correct. The stroke strategy has had very good impacts and I am grateful to the clinicians for that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Collins  I want to raise the deeply distressing case of the 19 women abused by a former school principal at Dunderrow National School in west Cork. These women suffered unimaginable abuse as children. One survivor described how you were not safe anywhere in that school - not in the classroom, not in the bathroom, not even the school grounds - yet decades later, many of these women remain excluded from redress despite the fact that Louise O'Keefe successfully proved before the European Court of Human Rights that the Irish State failed in its duty to protect children from abuse. Today, these women are being forced to consider legal action simply to obtain recognition and justice. This cannot be right. They are now being told to wait for further reviews and an interdepartmental process when many of these women with whom I have spoken to have already spent decades seeking acknowledgement and justice. Does the Taoiseach accept that forcing survivors into lengthy legal proceedings risks further traumatising them? Will he commit to engaging directly with the women involved to seek resolution without the need for court action and if he engages, how soon these innocent women can be included in redress? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  As I said earlier to a series of questions on this issue, we will be responding in a positive way to correspondence from representatives of the survivors of Dunderrow National School in regard to mediation. The abuse was horrific - of that there can be no question - and the trauma experienced was equally life-enduring but there were earlier ex gratia payment schemes so mediation will be entered into in respect of the correspondence we received. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail  The Government prioritised critical infrastructure in the last budget and we are seeing the benefits of that in Kildare with water infrastructure. However, the management of the projects by Uisce \u00c9ireann is extremely poor from traffic to water outages. There have been particular issues in Celbridge, Maynooth, Leixlip and north east Kildare. The difficulty I and communities face involves holding Uisce \u00c9ireann accountable around timelines and particularly around traffic and water outages. What can we do in relation to Uisce \u00c9ireann because its responses take weeks and if we are fortunate, days.  There needs to be more accountability from Irish Water, particularly on these specific projects. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  I thank the Deputy for raising this issue. There is a unit now within Uisce \u00c9ireann that is meant to be responding to public representatives in respect of issues. I do not have the specifics but I clearly can detect from the nature of the Deputy's contribution that he is irate at what has transpired in respect of a project in his area. I will talk to the Minister about it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Colm Burke  Will the Taoiseach outline when funding will be provided for the construction of the new paediatric unit at Cork University Hospital, CUH, given that planning permission was granted in 2022 and also taking into account that eight senior medical consultants have signed a letter expressing concern in respect of the current situation in the paediatric unit and stating there is a risk to patients? Can clarification be given as regards the emergency work that is required to be put in place immediately to deal with their concerns? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  My understanding is that under the current programme, the development is on track to go to tender for the main building works this year and to appoint a main contractor in quarter 1 of 2027, subject to the necessary approvals. As the Deputy knows, there was a phase 1 back in 2017. Phase 2 is the paediatric inpatient accommodation, which will deliver 82 much-needed inpatient beds, both new and replacement. It has taken time but, in parallel with all this, a substantial package of enabling works has been under way since 2024 to support both the paediatric unit and the wider redevelopment of the CUH campus. The paediatric unit forms part of the first phase of major CUH campus developments, which are significant in scale, cost and complexity. We will keep a weather eye on the project. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  Today's announcement regarding the empty GPO and the row-back from the wholesale commercialisation of the site is welcome. Maybe now the Taoiseach can row back on his endorsement of the Hammerson plan to destroy the nearby battlefield site on Moore Street, not just because that plan would lay waste to one of Dublin's most important historical heritage sites but also because of Hammerson's continued partnership with Allianz, which has been cited in a UN report as an enabler of Israel's genocide in Palestine with its \u20ac1 billion purchase of Israeli war bonds and more. Will the Taoiseach end his association with and support for Hammerson and Allianz and their plans for Moore Street? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  First, there was no reversal in respect of the GPO. You guys in Sinn F\u00e9in created a false controversy and made false assertions that we were turning the GPO into a retail outlet. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  They were your words. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  Then your party ran a great campaign. It is the normal kind of behaviour you go on with. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  Your words. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  Allow the Taoiseach to answer, Deputy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  It is terribly cynical politics of the worst kind but it is a great old technique to create an issue and send a hare up the field when actually there is no issue in the first place. Of course the GPO will be an iconic building by the time we are finished with it but, as the Deputy knows, there is a huge complex behind it. We are looking at the major iconic cultural aspect. There will be a post office there and there will be other elements there as well to create footfall. We hope to have either a State agency or a public service there also. It will take a lot of work.  Likewise, there is some very good work being done on Moore Street by the State but that has been attacked as well by your good selves. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  There is no work happening on Moore Street. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  It seems to me you want to keep the campaign going on forever. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  You are telling lies again. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  Deputy McDonald told the Minister of State, Deputy Moran, she was against it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  When is it opening? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  Deputy \u00d3 Snodaigh, please. I have called Deputy Cummins. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  The Taoiseach should not mislead the D\u00e1il. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jen Cummins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jen Cummins  In my constituency, there are a number of children at risk of deportation. They are too young to have known anywhere else and they are going to be ripped from the communities in which they have friends, classmates and all the people who care for and love them. This time last year, a number of children from my constituency were deported before the end of the school year, which was very traumatic for everybody. This year, I do not know whether the deportations will happen during the school year. I asked last year that they not happen during the school year. What work has been done since last year by Tusla and the Department of justice to make sure children who are being deported are treated with the utmost respect and dignity and that both their human rights and their rights as children are protected? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  Everything will be done to uphold the rights of children and human rights. There also has to be a fair and firm migration system. The key to it is to have timely processing of applications so that children or families are not here an inordinate length of time, during which they put down roots and so on, before then, as a result of the application process, being found not to have proper status. Huge progress has been made in accelerating the timelines for the first phase of applications. Work is also under way on the next phase in terms of the appeals process. I think ensuring children are not deported during school time is a reasonable position. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Johnny Mythen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Johnny-Mythen.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Johnny-Mythen.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Johnny Mythen  The recent severe storms have dramatically accelerated erosion around our coastline. The coastal erosion at Rosslare Strand has reached a critical level that is endangering the entire community in the area, no more so than at the well-known and well-established tourist destination of Kelly's Resort Hotel, which is a family business that was built up over decades. This is a thriving community that services the entire country. It is a natural beauty spot with easy access to beautiful white beaches. The Coast Protection Act 1963 includes a specific reference to a requirement that Rosslare Strand be maintained \"in proper repair and effective condition\". Under the Act, once coastal erosion is identified, as is the case right now, the State has a duty to act to protect the coastline. Will the Taoiseach ask the relevant Departments to consider prioritising the delivery of the coastal protection scheme for Rosslare Strand? Cosmetic repairs will not save this coastal community and its most valuable national tourist attraction. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  The Deputy has raised the specific case of Rosslare. More generally, we will have to put more resources to one side for the costs of adaptation to climate change. That change is here now. I understand the temperature in London, for example, will be 40 \u00b0C by the end of the week. That is an extraordinarily high temperature across the water. There has been too much complacency about climate change being something in the distant future. The impacts of climate change are here and now. We need stronger budget lines for the costs of those impacts. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell  T\u00e1 go leor cainte faoi ch\u00farsa\u00ed infreastrucht\u00fair faoi l\u00e1thair. D\u2019ardaigh m\u00e9 cheana leis an Taoiseach na fadhbanna sa bhuninfreastrucht\u00far i gConamara. Cialla\u00edonn s\u00e9 sin an cine\u00e1l infreastrucht\u00far simpl\u00ed at\u00e1 ag teast\u00e1il ionas go mbeadh daoine in ann a bheith ina gc\u00f3na\u00ed in \u00e1it agus go mbeadh siad in ann obair ann freisin. Ceann de na ruda\u00ed bun\u00fasacha sin n\u00e1 c\u00farsa\u00ed leathanbhanda. T\u00e1 \u00e1iteanna ar fud fad Conamara nach bhfuil leathanbhanda iontu, ach t\u00e1 ceantair freisin at\u00e1 s\u00e1ch gar don chathair \u00e1it nach bhfuil leathanbhanda ach in \u00e1iteanna \u00e1irithe sna bailte sin. C\u00e9n uair a cheapann an Taoiseach go mbeidh an buninfreastrucht\u00far sin ann do mhuintir Chonamara, go h\u00e1irithe nuair at\u00e1imid ag caint ar ch\u00farsa\u00ed leathanbhanda d\u00f3ibh si\u00fad a bhfuil gn\u00f3lachta\u00ed acu, mar shampla? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  Aonta\u00edm leis an Teachta gur cheart go mbeadh muid in ann an buninfreastrucht\u00far sin a chur i bhfeidhm. T\u00e1 deacracht ann go h\u00e1irithe in \u00e1iteanna iarg\u00falta. Bh\u00ed s\u00e9 soil\u00e9ir le linn Stoirm \u00c9owyn, mar shampla, nach raibh an c\u00f3ras chomh l\u00e1idir is a cheap gach \u00e9inne go raibh s\u00e9. Cailleadh an c\u00f3ras go han-tapa ar fad. Beidh m\u00e9 ag caint leis an Aire, an Teachta Calleary, le f\u00e9achaint an f\u00e9idir linn n\u00edos m\u00f3 a dh\u00e9anamh \u00f3 thaobh \u00e1iteanna iarg\u00falta agus b\u2019fh\u00e9idir n\u00edos m\u00f3 taca\u00edochta a thabhairt don pobal n\u00f3 do na comhlachta\u00ed chun plean a chur i bhfeidhm ionas go mbeidh broadband ann don phobal. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Edward Timmins  The 132 bus service is the only bus to Dublin for most of west Wicklow. A year ago, I was told by the National Transport Authority, NTA, that the frequency of the service would be doubling. Nothing has happened since then. How do different Departments and Government bodies talk to one other? The NTA made that announcement without even having a timetable from Bus \u00c9ireann. How will communication be improved between Departments and different bodies? Second, the much-needed 199 bus service promised for last September from Glendalough to Bray was all ready to go before being canned at the last minute. How can we ensure Departments and State bodies talk and work better together? There seems to be a complete breakdown in communication. They are telling us different stories. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  There will be songs written about the 132 bus yet. It has been raised here on numerous occasions and I will talk to the Minister in respect of it.  There could be a few PhD theses written about Government agencies and Government Departments talking to each other. There is a human tendency to try to live in silos. We work extremely hard to break all of that down. The integrated approach of people working together is key. I will follow up with the Minister for Transport in respect of bus transport. There has been a significant expansion of bus services over the last number of years. There was some degree of consolidation this year, to be frank, and in terms of other expenditure items. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Clendennen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Clendennen  Earlier this year I received confirmation that an additional 12 therapists would be appointed to the midlands integrated healthcare area. This would benefit my own constituency with occupational therapy, physiotherapy and children's disability services. I fully understand the challenges around recruitment right now but this week another barrier was brought to my attention via a response to a parliamentary question. This is the whole area of Garda vetting, with the HSE referring to significant delays in the process in relation to recruitment. I have no issue with strict Garda vetting. It is necessary but when it becomes an additional barrier to recruitment we have to address it. There are too many families waiting on these services, on the likes of physiotherapy and disability services. Any delays that we can rule out, we should be addressing them. I ask the Government to engage with the Garda National Vetting Bureau and the HSE to ensure that we reduce these barriers as soon as possible. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  That is a reasonable point. I will talk to the Minster for justice on this to see if there are ways we can streamline vetting, particularly when someone has already been through a vetting procedure and process. If they apply for another job in parallel or some time afterwards, in a different area, apparently they have to go through the process again. Recruitment has been a considerable issue for us in the health service, particularly in the area of therapy. Anything we can do to speed that up is something we should do. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Lawless  The July provision summer programme exists for the most vulnerable children in this country. This year the government has made a complete shambles of it. First, the Government opened and closed the application window before many schools and families even knew it was open. Second, the Government significantly cut some of the teachers and SNAs allocated to schools. Third, effectively the late allocations arriving at the eleventh hour means that many schools do not know whether or not they can open on Monday morning. For example, Claremorris National School last year ran the programme with 15 staff members. This year, this allocation has been cut to just five. The fact that this allocation only arrived last week, days before the summer programme is due to commence, has left this programme under significant jeopardy. This is not just an isolated issue. It is happening right across the country. Children with disabilities are the most vulnerable. This July provision, in terms of the reduced allocation to schools, and the fact that the late allocations have arrived, means that many principals do not know whether or not they can open the door on Monday morning. Will the Taoiseach instruct the Department to review? Will he give schools the authority and the confidence to open on Monday morning with an appropriate staffing ratio? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  I am mindful of language but in ten years we have gone from about 8,700 students availing of the summer scheme to 70,000 students availing of it. How does the Deputy call that a shambles? That is nonsense. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Lawless  The application window opened and closed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  That is across 2,000 schools and funding has increased by \u20ac42 million. The scheme has grown out of all proportion. In fact, it was a scheme that originally was meant to target children with additional needs or children in certain circumstances of disadvantage. Any review would need to keep a focus. It has grown exponentially. There has been a lot of interaction between the Department and the schools. We have a lot of SNAs appointed. About 11,500 SNAs participated last year, with a similar number expected this year. That is now a very significant resource, so let us have some balance and perspective. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Lawless  What about the late applications? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy William Aird  I want to raise the issue of Leprino Foods Company in Portlaoise. This was a joint venture between Glanbia and the Leprino family which is known worldwide for its mozzarella cheese. The company came to Portlaoise in a joint venture to manufacture stringy mozzarella cheese. The Leprino family bought Glanbia out of the project, so we now have a situation where Leprino Foods is exiting this country and moving to the North of Ireland and Wales. This factory is three minutes from junction 17. It is in our enterprise park, which I am delighted to say is completely full now. This factory cost \u20ac130 million to build. Roughly \u20ac7 million of taxpayers' money went into it and it is now for sale, as I speak here today, for \u20ac12 million. I ask the Taoiseach to use his good offices at this critical time and sit down with relevant Ministers to ensure that we get somebody in there because it is such a new factory. It is there available with all new equipment and is open, from my point of view, to many industries in the food sector. We have to compliment the likes of Tirl\u00e1n and Kerry Group that have invested huge money in this. I am asking the Taoiseach to please take a personal interest in it for the people of Portlaoise and County Laois. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  I am conscious of the fact that Laois needs investment in the industrial context. I will ask the Minister, Deputy Peter Burke, to engage with Enterprise Ireland and the IDA to see what their views on this are. It may sell private sector to private sector and another enterprise could come in there. From what the Deputy is saying it seems to be a modern factory, so it is a facility that potentially another company could utilise. I would have concerns that Leprino Foods is moving to Northern Ireland or to Wales. We need to understand the reasons behind that because that would be a concern. Maybe those areas are offering more supports but we need to have a full understanding as to why the move happened. I will talk the Minister to see if something can be done with the agencies in respect of that facility. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"An tOrd Gn\u00f3 - Order of Business"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-23\/debate\/dbsect_8","debateType":"debate","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/70","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/70\/dail\/1","houseCode":"dail","stage":"1","isBillStage":true,"showAs":"Anti-Shrinkflation Bill 2026: First Stage (D\u00e1il)"}},"showAs":"Anti-Shrinkflation Bill 2026: First Stage","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Holly Cairns","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Holly-Cairns.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Holly-Cairns.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Holly Cairns","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Holly-Cairns.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Holly-Cairns.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Holly Cairns  I move:  That leave be granted to introduce a Bill entitled an Act to provide price transparency for consumers by preventing hidden price increases by way of quantity reduction, allowing consumers to make informed purchasing decisions.  When people go to the supermarket they deserve to know what they are paying for. They deserve to know if the product they bought last week has become smaller this week and if the quantity has been reduced while the price has stayed the same, or worse, gone up. Everyone deserves to be able to make informed choices about how they spend their money but, right now, too many people feel like they are being caught out. The weekly shop costs more than ever, and people know they are getting less for their money, but it is not often very clear why. That is because of a practice known as shrinkflation. This happens when a product is reduced in size or quantity while the price stays the same. It is a tactic used by manufacturers and retailers to maintain profit while giving the impression that nothing has changed. It is a hidden price increase and it can be very difficult to spot. We have all seen examples of chocolate bars getting smaller, cereal boxes with fewer grammes inside and fewer items in a multipack.  Consumer reports show everyday household essentials are shrinking while prices continue to rise. It is happening across every major supermarket chain in the country. The changes might seem minor - fewer biscuits in a pack or sheets on a toilet roll - but there is a reason these price increases are hidden. Increasing the label price by 20% would be noticed and would make people think twice about buying a product and go for something else. Shrinking the contents means people notice the change a little later, after they have made the purchase, opened the packet and finished the product and realise it did not last as long as it used to. People realise that they will now have to buy more earlier than they thought they would. It is part of the reason people often feel like their money just is not stretching as far as it used to even when, on paper, their shopping lists and shopping bills have stayed the same. We are in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis that is putting enormous pressure on households across the country. Pensioners are making difficult choices every week. Families are stretching every single euro. Workers are watching their wages disappear into rent, childcare, energy bills and, more and more, into food costs.  When every euro counts, transparency matters. That is what this Bill seeks to address.  This legislation would require large retailers to provide clear labelling on a product or a notice nearby to inform consumers when shrinkflation has occurred. Consumers would be clearly informed that the product costs more than it used to and contains less. It does not ban reducing quantity, impose price controls or tell businesses what they can charge. What it does is say consumers have a right to know if a product has become smaller and more expensive. This is a very simple proposal. The exact same regulations have been introduced in France and Austria. Both countries recognised something important, namely, that transparency builds trust and allows people to make informed choices.  The cost-of-living crisis is out of control and people often feel that the system is stacked against ordinary consumers. This Bill is just one small, practical step we can take to address that. Consumers should not need a magnifying glass, a spreadsheet or a photographic memory to work out whether they are getting value for their money. The information should be available to them clearly and openly at the point of purchase. Transparency should be the norm, not the exception. That is very simply what this legislation seeks to achieve. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  Is the Bill opposed? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Deputy Mary Butler)  No. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  Since this is a Private Members' Bill, Second Stage must, under Standing Orders, be taken in Private Members' time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Holly Cairns","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Holly-Cairns.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Holly-Cairns.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Holly Cairns  I move: \"That the Bill be taken in Private Members' time.\" "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Anti-Shrinkflation Bill 2026: First Stage"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-23\/debate\/dbsect_9","debateType":"motion","bill":null,"showAs":"Data Protection Act 2018 under (Section 60(6)) and (Section 51(3)) Regulations 2026: Motion","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_9","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Education and Youth (Deputy Hildegarde Naughton)  I move:  That D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann approves the following Regulations in draft:  Data Protection Act 2018 (Section 60(6)) and (Section 51(3)) (Commission of Investigation into the Handling of Historical Child Sexual Abuse in Day and Boarding Schools) Regulations 2026;  a copy of which was laid in draft before D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann on the 16th June, 2026. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Data Protection Act 2018 under (Section 60(6)) and (Section 51(3)) Regulations 2026: Motion"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-23\/debate\/dbsect_10","debateType":"debate","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/70","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/70\/dail\/2","houseCode":"dail","stage":"2","isBillStage":true,"showAs":"Dublin Airport (Passenger Capacity) Bill 2026: Second Stage (D\u00e1il)"}},"showAs":"Dublin Airport (Passenger Capacity) Bill 2026: Second Stage","counts":{"speechCount":46,"speakerCount":23},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_10","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louis O'Hara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gillian Toole","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gillian-Toole.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Gillian-Toole.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mattie McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ciar\u00e1n Ahern","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Duncan Smith","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Duncan-Smith.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Duncan-Smith.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cormac Devlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cormac-Devlin.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cormac-Devlin.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Ward.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Barry-Ward.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ann Graves","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ann-Graves.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ann-Graves.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Transport (Deputy Darragh O'Brien)  I move: \"That the Bill be now read a Second Time.\"  I am pleased to introduce the Dublin Airport (Passenger Capacity) Bill 2026 for the consideration of the House. The main purpose of this Bill is to address the passenger cap planning condition at Dublin Airport. The importance of addressing the passenger cap and its effects on Dublin Airport is recognised clearly in the programme for Government, which includes a clear commitment to work with stakeholders to achieve the objective of lifting the passenger cap at Dublin Airport as soon as possible.  I have met with a wide variety of stakeholders over the past 18 months, including local residents, airlines, business groups and industry regulators in relation to the passenger cap planning condition. The general scheme of the Bill has also been scrutinised by the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport, which received a considerable number of submissions from a wide range of stakeholders. The committee held several hearings to ensure that the views of all interested parties were heard, and I have taken on board the recommendations of the committee insofar as possible in finalising the text of the Bill.  In drafting this legislative intervention, I have taken the views of all of these stakeholders into account. I have also obtained extensive legal advice throughout the drafting of the legislation, and I am satisfied that what I am presenting will allow for the continued sustainable development of Dublin Airport, while balancing the rights of local residents with the objectives of Ireland's national aviation policy and the needs of business and tourism.  I think we can all agree that, as an island nation, Dublin Airport is of strategic importance to this country. Over 36 million passengers travelled through Dublin Airport in 2025. As such, there are a number of recognised risks around the passenger cap planning condition remaining in place. First, if enforced, it would result in an immediate cut of over 4 million passengers per annum, impacting on existing connectivity and employment at the airport and in the wider aviation sector. Second, it would stifle continued growth, undermine our ambitious hub strategy for the airport and negatively impact on our economy in terms of business, trade and tourism. It will also very negatively impact on the jobs the airport underpins. There are about 130,000 direct and indirect jobs in Dublin Airport. Airlines need certainty to plan future schedules and the continued existence of the cap creates only uncertainty, which can be expected to continue to affect the choices that airlines will make about serving the Dublin Airport. Finally, the reputational damage for Ireland could be impacted if capacity is restricted at our main international gateway.  The 32 million passenger cap is a planning condition that was imposed by An Coimisi\u00fan Plean\u00e1la, then known as An Bord Plean\u00e1la, when granting permission for terminal 2 in 2007 and extension works at terminal 1 in 2008. The condition was put in place primarily to address surface access constraints at the time. However, there have been significant upgrades of local road access and public transport offerings to and from the airport since then. It is also very significant, as Members will know, that we have a full, clean planning permission for MetroLink, on which construction will start next year.  DAA has statutory responsibility for the management, operation and development of Dublin Airport and it is its responsibility to engage with the relevant planning authorities to ensure that planning permission is in place to facilitate the development of the airport. DAA submitted its infrastructure application to the relevant planning authority, Fingal County Council, in December 2023, seeking to increase the passenger cap to 40 million passengers per annum and seeking permission, importantly, for the development of a suite of infrastructure projects at the airport to facilitate growth.  This planning application is currently under consideration by Fingal County Council. As part of the process in place for development at the airport since the enactment of the Aircraft Noise (Dublin Airport) Regulation Act 2019, a draft noise-related regulatory decision was published by the Aircraft Noise Competent Authority, ANCA, last month and is currently subject to a public consultation for a period of 14 weeks. A final regulatory decision in relation to the noise aspect of this planning application is expected after that period ends. This decision will be incorporated in the planning decision by Fingal County Council, which is expected shortly thereafter. It is, however, likely that any planning decision by Fingal County Council may then be appealed to An Coimisi\u00fan Plean\u00e1la and may also be subject to judicial review. This further highlights the need to address the passenger cap by way of a legislative solution to ensure clarity for all stakeholders and to ensure that connectivity to and from our country is not undermined.  I will now take colleagues through the main provisions of the Bill that will empower me, as the Minister for Transport, to make an order to amend or revoke the passenger cap planning condition. In Part 1, the first thing I draw attention to is the definition of \"passenger capacity condition\" under section 2 of the Bill. This definition makes it clear that the power to make an order relates solely to a planning condition that limits the number of passengers who use Dublin Airport for the purpose of travelling by air to or from another airport in any period. I know there were concerns raised during pre-legislative scrutiny that the power being provided to amend any planning condition in the general scheme was too broad, and that has been addressed. Under section 6 of this Part, I have a general power of direction to DAA for any purpose related to this Bill. I may use this power to procure information from DAA in relation to an application, ensure the preparation and submission of appropriate reports relating to the environmental assessments or initiate the application process, which is a very important provision. In such directions, I may specify the period and form in which information should be provided. DAA has a legal obligation to comply with such a direction.  Part 2 provides that DAA may make an application for the making of an order under the legislation. That application from DAA will propose the manner in which the passenger cap is to be amended or revoked, reasons for the application and a summary of the environmental impacts. I will consider the application and consult any person I consider appropriate. If I am satisfied there is justification to make an order, I will notify DAA of my intention to do so and direct it to prepare an environmental impact assessment report and a Natura impact statement. I have the power to accept, vary or refuse an application from DAA.  Part 3, covering sections 8 to 23, inclusive, provides for the environmental impact assessment and appropriate assessment that will be undertaken independently of me, as Minister. An Coimisi\u00fan Plean\u00e1la will carry out the assessments under the habitats directive and the environmental impact assessment directive, which will include consideration of compliance with the water framework directive.  As part of these assessments, the commission will publish the material for the assessments and undertake a public consultation for a period of no longer than 30 days. There is provision, though, for a further 30-day public consultation should the commission seek and receive further information that is substantial in nature. I have included strict timelines within the legislation, and the commission will have 20 weeks to carry out the assessments and come to a reasoned conclusion in relation to the environmental impacts of making an order and a determination as to whether there will be an impact on the surrounding habitats. There is the ability to pause this timeline for a period of four weeks to allow for any requests for further information to be dealt with. The commission is encouraged, insofar as possible, to carry out these assessments jointly and to take all necessary steps to work in an expeditious manner, avoid any undue delays and ensure that appropriate resources are allocated to carry out its functions under the legislation within the timeframe provided. The commission will notify me of its findings arising from the environmental assessments and publish its reasoned conclusion and determination.  Part 4 sets out the parameters around the making of the order by me and that an order will be superseded by a planning decision on the DAA's infrastructure application. Under section 24, I am prohibited from making an order until the environmental assessments have been carried out. I believe that provision addresses some concerns raised during pre-legislative scrutiny about the public being excluded from the process. This is not the case. At least one period of public consultation in relation to the environmental impacts of making an order will take place.  Under section 25, I am empowered to make an order to amend or revoke the passenger cap, where I am of the opinion that the passenger cap is causing harm to the economy of the State, international connectivity and Ireland's reputation in respect of air transport. In making an order, I will consider and take account of the outcomes of the environmental assessments undertaken by the commission, and I have the power to include any conditions in an order that I deem appropriate to mitigate any impact on the environment.  In consultation with the Minister for housing, where appropriate, I can deem the conditions attached to an order as exempted development but only where they are not separately subject to environmental assessments under EU law. I will publish an order on my Department\u2019s website and in Iris Oifigi\u00fail and inform Fingal County Council, which is the relevant planning authority.  While it is critical that we deal with the passenger cap planning condition, it would be meaningless to do so if we did not have the infrastructure to accommodate that future growth. Therefore, in the preparation of this legislation, one of the key objectives was to protect DAA's live planning application. As such, the legislation I bring before the House today was crafted to allow that application to proceed through the planning process, notwithstanding the making of an order. Section 26 sets out the effect of an order as it relates to that planning application given that both deal with the same planning condition, namely, the 32 million passenger cap.  In short, once a final decision is made in relation to DAA's infrastructure application, that decision will supersede any order made under this legislation in this particular application. However, an order will remain in place through any appeal or judicial review, JR, of that planning decision and if that planning application is refused, then the order will also remain in effect. This will ensure consistency and certainty for all stakeholders while DAA's planning application proceeds to a final planning decision. I believe this also addresses a recommendation, which, again, arose from the committee, for a sunset clause to be introduced.  Part 5, which covers sections 27 to 35, inclusive, sets out the judicial review procedures. The validity of an order made under the legislation, or an alleged failure to carry out a function under the legislation, may only be challenged by way of judicial review. An application for leave to apply for a JR must be taken within eight weeks and the applicant must have sufficient interest in the matter.  Part 6 provides for amendments to the Planning and Developments Acts. Under these amendments, Fingal County Council and An Coimisi\u00fan Plean\u00e1la are prevented from imposing a passenger cap as a condition in future planning decisions related to Dublin Airport. However, this does not apply in the case of the condition being imposed following a noise assessment by the noise regulator, ANCA, under the balanced approach and it does not apply, in this instance specifically, to the DAA's live infrastructure application.  This Part also provides for amendments to the Aircraft Noise (Dublin Airport) Regulation Act 2019. The definition of operating restriction has been amended to align with EU regulations on the establishment of rules and procedures with regard to the introduction of noise-related operating restrictions at European Union airports within the balanced approach. Two transitional provisions that are no longer relevant have been deleted and a provision has been inserted to clarify that the 32 million passenger cap is not an operating restriction within the meaning of the 2019 Act.  Section 39 provides a derogation from section 15(1) of the Climate Action and Low Carbon Development Act 2015. I want to explain a couple of reasons this is the case. First, the passenger cap was not a targeted climate measure and, second, international aviation emissions are excluded from the climate action plan. As such, this provides clarity as to the application of that Act to the actions that are under this specific legislation.  As I mentioned, we are an island nation and we cannot ignore the strategic importance of Dublin Airport to our economy and the serious harm that would be caused to the economy, our people, our international connectivity and the international reputation of the State by failing to be in a position to facilitate not only future growth, but the current level of passengers and cargo at our main international gateway.  The legislation I am proposing will not only allow us to ensure the sustainable development of the airport, but will also ensure that any environmental impacts will be independently assessed and the views of the public will be heard as part of that process. As such, it is my view that the approach set out in the legislation represents the most balanced and reasonable way forward.  We are dealing here with a legacy issue. The Dublin Airport passenger cap does not serve this State or the people of the region well. I want the airport to grow on a sustainable basis and to operate as a good neighbour. I grew up beside the airport and have lived in the area my whole life. I know that tens of thousands of people derive income and good salaries from Dublin Airport. It is a critical part of infrastructure in this country and critical to our international connectivity. We have tens of thousands of people working there who not only derive an income there, as I said, but are at the leading edge of aviation, not just in Ireland but across Europe and the globe.  This legislation is critical to ensuring we can grow Dublin Airport in a sustainable manner. It ensures and enshrines public consultation within it but sets strict timelines in that regard. We have also ensured that the existing planning application that is with Fingal County Council is fully protected. There is a process within this as well, in that the Bill gives the Minister of the day the power to preclude the imposition of further caps but also to seek applications from the Dublin Airport authority in this instance to raise the cap further in that regard.  I am looking forward to the debate and the input from Members from across the House. I thank the members of the joint committee under the chairpersonship of Deputy Michael Murphy for the work they have done in this regard. We have reflected many of the recommendations from the pre-legislative scrutiny and the committee's report in the Bill. This Bill is of strategic importance. It is urgent that it be passed. For this reason, I thank the House for its consideration of Second Stage today. I look forward to moving the legislation to its conclusion next week. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pa Daly  As an island nation, our connectivity is obviously not optional. Our economy, tourism sector, diaspora connections and ability to attract investment all depend on Ireland's connectivity. It is the lynchpin for hundreds of thousands of jobs. There can, therefore, be no question than an ambitious, forward-looking aviation strategy is essential. As Ireland's primary international gateway and a critical piece of infrastructure, Dublin Airport is fundamental.  Right now, the passenger cap is being constrained by a rule that no longer makes sense. The cap is outdated and out of step with reality. Some 36 million passengers passed through Dublin Airport despite the cap being set at 32 million. A difference of 4 million between the two is not a rounding error; it is proof that something has not been working.  We in Sinn F\u00e9in believe the Dublin Airport passenger cap should be lifted but we are not here just to rubberstamp the legislation. While the cap must be lifted in order that we allow for progress, that does not mean the Government's approach should be given carte blanche . First, the aviation strategy must move beyond the city and county of Dublin.  Rather than being treated as an afterthought, the Government must recognise that regional airports are key to unlocking Ireland's potential and to delivering balanced regional development. Therefore, Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael must move beyond their current narrow focus on Dublin and expand their horizons, supported by whatever Independent TDs are still currently supporting Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael.  From Kerry to Cork, Shannon, Knock, Waterford, Donegal, Belfast, Derry and beyond, Ireland's regional airports are awash with unlocked potential. The Bill must engage with the fact that local communities have felt ignored and overlooked for years. Proper community consultation does not mean preventing progress. When it is done properly, it can enhance it. The Bill presents an opportunity to make the Minister and DAA do a better job. There are amendments that Sinn F\u00e9in will be proposing because the outdated airport cap is holding Ireland back. The original 32 million cap, as the Minister said, was introduced as a planning condition at the time of the planning permission for terminal 2. As he said, it was primarily to address the surface access constraints at the time. It was rooted in very specific concerns about traffic congestion and local impacts but the world has moved on.  Passenger demand has outgrown the cap and the cap itself has become blunt and outdated. The infrastructure around the airport has changed since 2007. It is now creating uncertainty, not only for the airport authority but for airlines, workers, the wider economy and the stakeholders the Minister mentioned in his opening speech. There are ongoing legal challenges and looming regulatory decisions at European level that could force stricter enforcement of the cap if it remained in place and we could potentially see reduced flight slots or curtailed capacity and possible damage to tourism, trade and jobs. Legal and regulatory chaos could result from it. That is not a risk we should take.  Industry stakeholders have been quite clear that the cap was limiting growth and restricting connectivity, particularly on key transatlantic routes, and creating uncertainty that could undermine Ireland's competitiveness. Nowhere is this more true than the tourism sector, which is so important in my county of Kerry. Tourism supports almost 230,000 jobs across the country which is nearly one in ten jobs. These are jobs in every county, in rural communities as well as cities. Many of them are in sectors where workers are already under pressure. The sector is facing real challenges. In 2025, international trips declined and visitor spending fell. That is a warning sign we cannot ignore.  Connectivity is also critical to reversing that trend. Without sufficient capacity at Dublin Airport, we risk losing visitors to other destinations. However, growth and tourism must also be fair and balanced. Sinn F\u00e9in has consistently argued for a tourism strategy that delivers shared prosperity and supports communities right across the island, not just the stakeholders who are involved here. That means linking aviation policy to regional development, sustainability and decent working conditions for those who are employed in the sector. The Government cannot claim to support workers while failing to ensure the benefits reach them by delaying the living wage and leaving low-paid workers carrying the burden. It is about more than just lifting the cap. It is about ensuring that lifting the barrier to Dublin Airport's capacity means Ireland's true aviation potential is achieved in a fair and regionally balanced way. It is not just about lifting the cap and the problem is solved as nothing could be further from the truth. Lifting Dublin Airport's cap while continuing to ignore the potential of the regional airports will never produce the answer that Ireland needs and will continue to leave large parts of our island behind. Despite what the Government thinks, not all runways lead to Dublin.  This Bill presents us with an opportunity to address one of the significant failings of the Government; its lack of ambition when it comes to regional aviation. At present, Dublin Airport handles the overwhelming majority of passenger traffic at about 88%. By contrast, Cork Airport accounts for about 6% and others even less. That imbalance is not inevitable. It is the result of policy choices. The over-concentration is not strategy and it is holding back certain parts of the country. Regional airports have enormous potential to drive economic growth, support tourism and create jobs but they are not being given the tools or investment they need. Funding for regional airports remains limited, fragmented and overly focused on maintaining basic operations, rather than enabling growth and expansion.  Spread over years and across multiple airports, the sums allocated are not sufficient to transform connectivity or attract new routes. The result is a system that underperforms and leaves regional economies and airports, such as Kerry Airport, at a disadvantage. We need a fundamentally different approach that recognises the role of regional airports as engines of development and not afterthoughts. We need strategic investment and infrastructure, support for route development and airline partnerships, integration with wider transport networks and a clear, long-term vision for balanced aviation growth. We cannot continue with the model where Dublin expands without a strategy for the rest of the country. Ultimately, there has been an incoherent aviation strategy, no long-term plan for Dublin Airport, no serious roadmap for regional airports and, importantly, no all-island approach to connectivity. That is not good enough for a modern economy.  As part of its focus on regional airports, the Government needs to see beyond the partitionist approach. Ireland is a small island economy and our connectivity challenges do not stop at the border. An all-island approach to aviation offers real opportunities for tourism, trade and regional balance. We saw how fragile our transport links were when disruptions hit key routes and yet the Government refuses to think holistically about how people and goods move on and off this island. There is a clear need for resilience and co-ordination across the island. The Bill should be seen in that broader context; not just as a measure for Dublin Airport but as a wider strategy for connectivity across the island. Lifting the cap also requires the addressing of the very real concerns of communities that live around Dublin Airport. For too long, local voices have not been heard in a meaningful way. Residents have raised serious issues but they continue to be rebuffed and ignored. We will be bringing forward amendments that should give the Government the opportunity to take the concerns of the residents into consideration, which have not been heard in a meaningful way. There are also outstanding issues around flight paths, planning compliance and infrastructure commitments that were originally tied to the passenger cap. Many of these commitments, including road improvements, have not been fully delivered. We are now being asked to support legislation that will override planning conditions that exist without adequately addressing the failures. If we are to lift the cap, we must also strengthen protections for local communities.  The final key issue I will address is the scope of ministerial powers. The legislation gives the Minister significant authority to amend or revoke the passenger cap. While that may be necessary, it must be clearly defined, transparent and limited in scope. I see what the Minister has said about the power to make the order relating solely to a planning condition limiting the number of passengers who use Dublin Airport. That needs to be stated clearly. There is also concern and it must not extend beyond the passenger cap to other planning conditions. There are questions about oversight, accountability and the role of existing regulatory bodies. We need to ensure the powers granted are proportionate, clearly defined and subject to appropriate safeguards. The cap must go. We know it is outdated. We know it is damaging. However, lifting that is not alone a solution. If the Government thinks it can bulldoze this legislation through without fixing other underlying issues, it is mistaken because it is about protecting communities, supporting workers, delivering regional development and building a real aviation strategy for the future of island. Get that right and this Bill can work. If we get it wrong, we will be back here again dealing with the consequences of short-term thinking and missed opportunities. We will engage and we will propose solutions to work with. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louis O'Hara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Louis O'Hara  This legislation on the passenger cap must strike the right balance between ensuring our island's connectivity while also acknowledging the experiences and voices of local residents who live close to the airport. The \u20ac32 million annual passenger cap has been in place for many years now. However, in this time, passenger demand has far outgrown this limit and the cap has caused significant regulatory uncertainty for the aviation sector. Sinn F\u00e9in supports the abolition of the cap but we believe this should be done in a measured way which provides the opportunity for local residents to meaningfully engage in the future of the airport, especially in terms of the regulation of noise levels and flight paths. As Deputy Daly outlined, we have significant concerns surrounding the powers this Bill proposes to give to the Minister. We will be submitting a number of amendments across the many sections of this Bill.  While lifting the passenger cap for Dublin Airport is critical to our island's connectivity, the Government must place just as much energy into developing our regional airports.  Airports such as those at Shannon and Knock provide a fantastic service, especially for people who live in the west of Ireland, and are key economic and tourism drivers for our region. These airports have seen passenger growth over the last number of years but the reality is that the lion's share of traffic continues to be processed through Dublin, with well over 80% of the State's air-passenger traffic being processed there. Increasing the use of airports like Shannon and Knock would reduce the level of traffic at Dublin Airport while also supporting greater growth opportunities across the west. Developing and promoting the use of our regional airports is an essential tool to deliver economic growth to every corner of this island and to promote balanced regional development. However, investment from Government must be there to deliver on this. This includes investment in the likes of reliable public transport links, both bus and rail, to airports like Shannon and Knock, which is a recommendation from the all-island rail review, so that people can make the switch to using these airports. In particular, the full reopening of the western rail corridor would provide a significant opportunity to improve connectivity to Knock Airport.  I also raise that it has been over ten years since the national aviation policy was published. From parliamentary questions I have submitted, there is still no sign of when the much-promised updated policy will be delivered. Without an overarching national aviation policy that reflects the developments in aviation, how can we have confidence in the Government's approach to aviation development, especially for our regional airports, which I have outlined?  We have waited quite a while for this legislation but there are still significant gaps and shortfalls that need to be addressed. This legislation must be used as an opportunity to ensure the residents who live near Dublin Airport are engaged with in a meaningful way and to ensure the DAA is not given carte blanche to do what it wants. The work surrounding this legislation must also be used as an opportunity to encourage the use of our regional airports. We need to see an updated national aviation policy delivered as a matter of urgency, and we will be submitting a number of amendments to this legislation. These amendments will be an opportunity for the Minister and Government to ensure this legislation is fit for the transport needs of the whole island. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Louise O'Reilly  I welcome the opportunity to make a contribution this afternoon. I thank Deputies Daly and O'Hara for their work on this legislation and for their continued work in this area. I also commend the residents' groups, including the St. Margaret\u2019s The Ward group and other groups that represent the people who are living in the environs of Dublin Airport.  I wish to address two issues the Minister raised in his remarks and I hope he will be able to come back to them in his concluding remarks. I will try to get back in if I can to hear these, but I will look back on the recording in any event. The Minister referenced the programme for Government including \"a clear commitment to work with stakeholders to achieve the objective of lifting the passenger cap\". Will he outline, in terms of the residents, how that commitment will be achieved? He also told us that what he is presenting here today will allow for the continued sustainable development of Dublin Airport while balancing the rights of local residents. Will the Minister outline for me what the rights of local residents are exactly and how that balance will be achieved? The Minister will know, having represented this area for a long time - I have represented them for ten years myself - that sometimes the residents who live in the environs of the airport do not feel like they have been listened to or that their concerns have been taken on board. As the Minister will know, all they want is for the airport to be a good neighbour. They feel that they are good neighbours and they want the airport to be a good neighbour. However, when your neighbour is as big and noisy as Dublin Airport is, it is sometimes very difficult to see and feel that it is being a good neighbour.  The residents want to be treated fairly, which is not unreasonable. Many of the people who live in the environs of the airport do not want to relocate but, if they have to do so, they want to be able to get a settlement from the voluntary dwelling purchase scheme that will enable them to move on with their lives while maintaining as much as possible what they have in terms of their family, etc. There are people who live near the airport who are there for generations. The airport grew up around them. They were there first. The Minister will know these people well. If they are forced to relocate and cannot remain where they are, they want a decent settlement so that they can rebuild their lives elsewhere.  I am also conscious of those people who are employed in the airport. Again, many of them are constituents of mine. I know how important the airport is as an employer and also as a driver of business. More can be done in terms of regional balance.  There is also a real need for an independent review and an assessment of the flight paths. The changes to the flight paths that took place recently were shrouded in mystery. People who never had a plane go over their house before found themselves in flight paths and they found it very hard to get answers or to get to the bottom of it. They will say themselves that they felt like they were gaslit by the Government and the airport.  We will be bringing forward amendments, as has been outlined. Those amendments are intended to be constructive but also to ensure the voices of the residents will be heard. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mark Ward  As the Minister knows, Ireland is an island and, therefore, its connectivity to the rest of the world is essential. The passenger cap at Dublin Airport is simply not working. In 2025, the cap was exceeded by around 4 million. Not only is it not working, it is not being adhered to. The Government must be mindful that any increase in the passenger cap at Dublin Airport will put pressure on existing services.  As was said already, Dublin Airport is an important employer. I was contacted recently by a pilot from my area about car parking issues for staff at Dublin Airport. His employer is unable to provide staff parking due to limited DAA parking capacity, which means many airport workers are being pushed into paid DAA parking or private airport parking options that require pre-booking. He told me that pilots are regularly rostered for standby duties, which leaves them in a really difficult position. Either they pay in advance for expensive parking that they may not ultimately need or they risk having no parking available if they are called off standby and have only an hour to report for duty. As can be imagined, this is really far from practical. During the summer months, public parking is often fully booked, which adds further uncertainty. It does not take a rocket scientist to work out that lifting the passenger cap will mean more staff. More staff will mean more driving and more driving will mean that we will need more parking. I am calling on the Government to plan for this certain outcome when lifting any passenger cap.  Public transport is not a viable option for that pilot and many other people in Dublin Mid-West. I have raised many times with the Minister that there is no practical way to travel from Dublin Mid-West to the airport using public transport. The Airport Hopper was the most economical way for people in the area to get to the airport. People in Clondalkin, Lucan and Tallaght have been impacted by the decision to close this route. People in these areas have been left without a dedicated bus service to the airport for over a year. As the Minister knows, I asked him and the NTA to step in because when a privately run service stops, the State can take it over through a public service obligation agreement. My pleas have fallen on deaf ears so far. In light of removal of the passenger cap, I ask that any public service obligations are revisited and reconsidered because of the impact that will have on people in Dublin Mid-West.  I have a final point which I have raised numerous times as well. It is a national embarrassment that Dublin Airport does not have a current rail or metro link. MetroLink was spoken about in 2005. Fianna F\u00e1il crashed the economy. It basically crashed MetroLink at the time. Twenty years later, it was announced. Will the Minister fill us in on any update on MetroLink? Will we see it any time this decade? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darragh O'Brien  We start building next year. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  It is my first opportunity to speak with the Minister since becoming the Social Democrats spokesperson on transport and I put on record that I am looking forward to working with him for the duration of this term. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darragh O'Brien  Me too. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  The Minister does not need me to inform him just how important Dublin Airport is to this island. Directly, thousands of people work between both terminals every day and indirectly we have seen very impressive figures of the impact of the airport on hundreds of thousands of jobs. In 2025 alone, 36 million passengers went through Dublin Airport, a 5% increase year on year and a 46% increase since 2015. There were 215 days last year with more than 100,000 passengers. That equates to real, essential figures regarding tourism and employment opportunities. The 1.7 million transfers show us that Dublin can be and is a gateway to Europe and the rest of the world.  As the Minister will know, aviation accounts for 2.5% of global carbon emissions and close to 14% of transport emissions.  It is the second-largest source of greenhouse gas emissions in the transport sector. While we can see a rapid pace in decarbonisation in road transport due to alternative fuel sources, as Hannah Ritchie and Pablo Rosado suggest, the outlook for aviation is less clear. Some 1% of biofuel produced globally is used for air travel and less than 1% of aviation fuel is made up of biofuel. Globally, we do not have the infrastructure to supply the aviation fleet, even in the most optimistic of scenarios. As the Minister has said, the impact of aviation on climate and biodiversity should always be central to any discussion about expanding our aviation strategy.  I am very aware that this cap was first introduced largely as the result of local infrastructure deficits and legitimate concerns regarding congestion, noise and impediments to those who live in the area or under the flight paths. It is worth putting on the record of this House that these issues have not gone away. If you couple the significant population increases in many of these areas with the significant increases in the number of passengers since 2007, if anything, the local infrastructure is less capable than ever of dealing with the consequences of the proposed legislation. As a Minister in the constituency, I accept Deputy O'Brien's bona fides in telling us of the support he is receiving on the ground from many who say this cap should be lifted for the sake of employment opportunities. That is also a very important point to make.  If we are going to have a serious conversation about the future capacity of our national airport, it should not be based solely on the capacity of nearby roads to cope with passenger numbers. However, I must ask if there is appetite across government to deliver meaningfully for the communities most affected by this legislation. I remind the Minister that, during preparation of the pre-legislative scrutiny report, we heard that 8,000 homes were affected by the north runway under the current flight paths, compared with the 538 homes that would have been affected under the original permitted route. That is a 15-fold increase. Recommendation 5 of the pre-legislative scrutiny report is \"that meaningful engagement is undertaken by the daa with local communities to mitigate the impact of noise from the north runway.\" These are tangible actions that could be progressed alongside this legislation as it moves through the House.  We all know that Dublin Airport is not the only international airport on this island. Cork Airport has a capacity of 5 million passengers annually. Last year, 3.4 million people travelled through that airport. Shannon Airport welcomed 2.3 million passengers. That airport is also operating well below capacity. Ireland West Airport's passenger numbers exceeded 950,000 last year when it has capacity for 1.5 million. As the Minister is well aware, other airports exist in Kerry and Donegal. I am really not suggesting that they can collectively address the capacity issues that are before the Minister with regard to Dublin Airport but it is important that any aviation strategy include them as part of the conversation. It is this Government's obligation to ensure that legislation is evidence-based. What preparatory or exploratory work has been undertaken to see whether we are maximising the use of all airports on the island, while also addressing the capacity constraints at Dublin Airport?  On the pre-legislative scrutiny undertaken by the Oireachtas committee, I heard the Minister on the radio last week and I join him in commending those committee members who did such a thorough pre-legislative scrutiny report on this Bill. Those recommendations paint a very thorough picture for the Minister and his officials as to how they should proceed in terms of Government amendments. If the Minister did not know before, he now knows about the potential health outcomes associated with this legislation and its impact on people, particularly children. Their voices must always be more important than sectoral interests. What mitigations are in place now that we know more?  I will particularly highlight recommendation 12, which is:  The Government should commission a comprehensive economic assessment of Dublin Airport on the model of the Schiphol assessment conducted by CE Delft, which examined the full climate, health, congestion and community costs of different capacity scenarios.  This would be a very positive and worthwhile exercise. I ask the Minister to include all airports on the island in this exercise.  I will finish with one final recommendation, which is, \"Head 5 should be amended to ensure that the Minister's power to revoke or amend planning conditions is limited solely to the passenger cap condition.\" As the Minister will be very aware from his former role as Minister for housing and local government, we need a wider discussion within Cabinet about the role of local authorities. I understand how we got here on this issue but seeking to bring such comprehensive powers into the office of the Minister of the day potentially undermines the role of local authorities even further.  We will be proposing a number of amendments over the coming days. They will be tabled in a very constructive manner. I look forward to debate on the next stage with regard to the role of local authorities and the very important issues of climate and biodiversity. Again, I am grateful for the opportunity to debate this. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gillian Toole","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gillian-Toole.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Gillian-Toole.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Gillian Toole  I had not expected to speak yet but I will take the opportunity. Things have moved very quickly. The benefit of Dublin Airport to Meath East is unquestionable. The opportunities for employment, the increase in the number of residents or constituents in the area and the opportunities for travel are all to our advantage. However, in recent times, the residents of Meath East have, without consultation, been affected by the increased number of flights to and from Dublin Airport.  I will speak in particular about the north runway. My comments will be no surprise to the Minister, his officials or the Taoiseach as I have raised these issues previously. As I have said before, I try to focus on solutions. In that vein, I will read solutions into the D\u00e1il record, some of which were conveyed to the Committee on Transport. I am not a member of that committee. I am grateful to Deputy Michael Murphy for his indulgence in letting me speak there. As we know, there are many affected residents in Meath East. There are people who bought homes in the constituency who never anticipated being overflown. The impact of the noise preferential route on these communities was never measured. Consultation with Meath County Council was never considered. Consultation was not extended to that council. I welcome the consideration within the Bill regarding public consultation in respect of environmental impact assessments being extended to Meath County Council.  I will read something into the record. I hope it will come in under time. Parts of it have previously been read into the record. As I have said before, I am a solutions-focused person. This is a solution to the issues facing the St. Margaret's residents and the Meath East residents. It is provided by the North Runway Technical Group, a voluntary group comprising residents and pilots with technical expertise. There is a way out. It reverses a change rather than making a change. The 28R departure routes flown since 2023 have turned aircraft off the straight-ahead procedures for air navigation services-aircraft operations, PANS-OPS, default without the safety assessment that change required. Returning these routes to the default removes the unassessed change. Most of it can start this month with no loss to the capacity Dublin Airport operates today. Indeed, there is a possible opportunity for increased capacity. We currently have DAA and AirNav flying 28R departures straight ahead on the omnidirectional departure route DAA already publishes, operated using the dependent mode. That is the mode Dublin Airport already operates whenever there is a missed approach on the parallel runway. Given that the straight-ahead path follows the corridor the original assessment reserved for departures, every population count falls under this approach. The number directly overflown drops by nearly 80% and the number in the wider affected swathe falls by more than 40%.  This fix reduces the impact rather than moving it onto anyone else. That has been cited repeatedly. It stops the steep low-altitude turn and only needs procedures and a mode that already exist. It is a permanent and independently designed solution.  In this instance, the Government can commission a qualified procedure designer independent of AirNav and DAA with a proper published brief to design the durable solution, turning the 28L missed approach - the south runaway missed approach - rather than the departure and run it through a full four pillar balanced approach. Everyone wins - the DAA keeps its capacity and growth, the residents come out from under the routes and AirNav and the IAA get a defensible design. We are solving the problem ourselves and then moving forward with the Bill in the intended mode.  However, the affected residents are my primary concern. The Minister knows from the committee that there have been presentations on the health impacts to residents in the area, which is estimated at a cost of \u20ac800 million per annum. Again, this reverses a change rather than making a change.  I wish to raise the overflight of Meath. The current situation that we have is the 30-degree separation from the missed approach path of the parallel runway, 28L. That separation is a requirement of independent, segregated, parallel operations. It does not apply when the two runways operate in dependent mode. Dublin already operates in a dependent mode in this respect. The north runway already holds whenever there is a missed approach on the south runaway. The dependent operation is not something that AirNav would have to create. It is already there. It operates in constrained conditions, such as strong winds. It is the co-ordination process. Operating in dependent mode and releasing the north runway departures straight ahead on the omnidirectional procedure changes nothing except the direction of the turn. I repeat that it does not reduce the capacity that Dublin already operates.  I hate to sound repetitious but the solution is here in reversing a change and the impact on the 30,000 people. Without referring directly to challenges that exist, we are aware that there are legal challenges take place. In the spirit of offering a solution, it is to reinforce this. I apologise for my repetition but there is a solution to this, which then it allows moving forward without opposition.  Reversing the change reduces both the overflown and the affected population. The interim arrangement will deliver that reduction immediately. The North Runway Technical Group has published geographic information system, GIS, analysis. It has been measured on the published departure centre lines against the convention of an overflown swathe within 1.5 km based on the UK's department of transport track keeping norms and an affected swathe within 3 km of the track flown. It gives the total population within each corridor. Regarding the statistics in relation to Fingal and east Meath and the routes flown since February 2023, 13,923 residents have been overflown, and 30,540 residents are in the affected swathe. On the straight-ahead design based on the 2004 to 2005 environmental impact statement, EIS, for the 2007 application, the figures here are stark. This is where the solution focus is. A total of 2,888 residents are overflown and 17,481 residents are in the affected area. This is a reduction in the total impact, not a redistribution of it, which I can understand is a fear. I am somebody who would be living in the affected swathe where the straight-ahead mode be complied with.  In the spirit of being solution focused, I seriously ask for this consideration to be acted on. However, first of all, I wish for it to be analysed. I have requested the safety reports that relate to the current 30-degree departure, and the subsequent 56-degree turn on departure from 28R. I await those. This is something that can be implemented within a very short timeframe. In the spirit of being the good neighbour as per the Dublin Airport Authority's website, a good neighbour in this instance is about reducing the health impacts, recognising the benefits of the airport and recognising our island status but trying to factor in, plan and implement for a win-win situation for our residents. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Healy-Rae  The Minister knows my views on this whole matter. Like Deputy Toole, I would like to think that I am coming at this from a sound and sensible perspective, not like the motion we had here last week where we had people who were against economic activity, building roads and everything we are trying to do from a common-sense point of view. We need roads and houses. A term used in the motion last week was \"unsustainable housing\". I would love to know what an unsustainable house is. I would love to know how any politician could deem what the Government is doing with Dublin Airport is wrong from an economic point of view, from a bringing people into this country point of view and from a strategic point of view. When we look at people like Michael O'Leary, I am very glad to use Michael O'Leary's name in the D\u00e1il in a positive way. Usually, people like him are demeaned and downgraded in here because of their success, usually by a certain group of politicians who absolutely despite and hold a grudge against anybody who seems to create wealth, growth and employment. They seem to have a set against them.  I wish to remind people about County Kerry's airport, Farranfore, which is strategically very important to us. Michael O'Leary has continuously told us that it is money that he makes in places like Dublin Airport that allows him to provide us with the service we have and are very thankful for. While I am at it, I would like to put in a spoke for more flights in and out of County Kerry provided by good people, such as Michael O'Leary and Ryanair. If we could have an earlier service in the morning, and if it is deemed financially viable to do so, we certainly would welcome it with open arms because Farranfore is one of the most unusual places in Ireland. It has an excellent road service and train service. That is a great advantage to us in the heart of County Kerry.  Coming back to the whole idea of what the Government is trying to achieve in Dublin, it is very welcome. We need to remove this cap because, quite simply, we need to allow more business to come into this country. We need connectivity to the airport. There is no point in being retrospective about it but it is surprising that we do not a rail service to and from the airport after all of these years. Again, Rome was not built in a day. I refer to the way the Government is going and the removal of the cap. I have met with residents who outlined their concerns. Of course, there will always be concerns. One of the things that it always reminds of, and I would like the Minister to take this on board, is the person who applies for planning permission to build a house near another person's farmyard. When they are living in their house, they then complain about the farmyard. In other words, what was there first? Many of the estates----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  Deputy----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Healy-Rae  Is my time up? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Healy-Rae  Sorry. Regarding many of the estates that are built there, the airport was there before the houses, and they knew where they were going to live. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  I call Deputy Danny Healy-Rae. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Danny Healy-Rae  Who is next? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  You. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Danny Healy-Rae  I thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle very much. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  The Deputy has three minutes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Danny Healy-Rae  I am glad to get the opportunity to talk on this Bill.  There has been a lot of talk about Dublin Airport and the cap. I know residents are concerned about it but Ireland has to move on. We need to open it up a bit anyway, give some relief there and give the operators like Michael O'Leary, who has been making a lot of sense about it, a chance to keep their flights and their business going. Until Ryanair came along, it was very expensive to travel in and out of this country.  At the same time, I ask that Shannon and the regional airports not be forgotten, starting with Kerry Airport. It is very important to us. The more flights we can get in and out of Kerry, it would be a great help to people in Kerry who need to travel for work and many different things. For both Kerry and Shannon, which is a regional airport with a long and great tradition, more needs to be done to help the mid-west. Many of my uncles and aunts travelled through Shannon coming and going to America. Four of them made their lives over there - my father's brothers and sisters. It was through Shannon they had to go when they were coming and going to America. Likewise, we are very close to Cork Airport but Kerry is the one we support and we ask the best for it all the time.  There is an issue this weekend. Kerry people may be disenfranchised if the Minister does not do something about the trains to ensure - I hope he is listening to me----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darragh O'Brien  I am. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Danny Healy-Rae  -----that Kerry people can travel to this match. We are playing Tyrone on Saturday at 6.15 p.m. It is not a great time for Kerry people who will be trying to get home, maybe leaving Croke Park as late as 9 p.m. I ask that enough trains be put on for that event to make sure the people of Kerry can get up there and get back home again. I have to say to the Minister it is unfortunate Kerry people and elderly people cannot watch this massive game on TV when RT\u00c9 got millions of euro - it got \u20ac725 million - to keep it floating, the very same amount the people of Ireland got----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Conor Sheehan)  Keep it relevant to the Bill. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Danny Healy-Rae  -----to help them with the cost of diesel. Do not forget us, Minister----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Conor Sheehan)  I told you to keep it relevant to the Bill, Deputy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Danny Healy-Rae  ------it is very important the people of Kerry can see the game, come up and get home again. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mattie McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mattie McGrath  I am happy to speak on the Dublin Airport (Passenger Capacity) Bill 2026 this evening. The cap must be lifted but there are fundamental questions. There are other issues besides Dublin; it cannot all be about Dublin. That is what it has been. There is huge investment in Dublin. We do not begrudge it one bit but we need a more balanced regional approach. While I support the lifting of the cap, for years policy and investment have been overwhelmingly focused on the capital while our regional airports at Cork, Shannon, Knock - Deputy Healy-Rae mentioned Kerry - and now Waterford. We welcome the investment there. There is great potential for people in the south east. They have all remained under-utilised despite being efficient, modern and easy to get to, and easy to grow as well. I compliment the staff there.  Passengers across the south and mid-west are paying the price. They face long journeys to Dublin, traffic gridlock on the M50, which I just came through in the past hour and a half myself, excessive costs for car parking at Dublin Airport, longer queues, bigger crowds and more stressful journeys. That is for sure - they are more stressful. Cork and Shannon airports serve vast regions, including County Tipperary, yet they are not supported in a balanced way. We must have more balanced regional development. It is imperative - we cannot not have it. The community wants to fly locally, and visitors to the south and south west do not want to face a two- to four-hour journey from the airport to wherever they are visiting in Ireland, yet they are given little choice with limited flights in these other airports. We must look at a better timetable for those airports and Waterford when it is completed. I compliment the private investor there and all who worked on it. My former colleague, Matt Shanahan, was a daily lobbyist here for Waterford Airport.  Instead of continuing to overload Dublin, we should invest in and promote regional airports as available alternatives. Everything in this country appears to revolve around Dublin, while the people in Dublin do not want an increase in passenger numbers. You cannot blame them - they have issues and problems. The DAA must answer a simple question: how can it justify seeking ever higher passenger numbers in Dublin while Cork and Shannon remain significantly underused? It is an obvious question. Any of us in business would look at that and see what we could do about it. A fair and balanced aviation strategy is essential for regional development as far the travelling public is concerned. I recall a debate here with former Minister Shane Ross who I met today at his book signing Clonmel. I wish him well. He was here for a debate so it is a while ago now. It is an ongoing issue. The Minister has grasped the nettle; it is no bother to him. He is a good man to take on issues. This has to be sorted out. Long term, we must be understanding of the regions of Ireland, the south east with Waterford and the south and south west with Shannon and Cork. Cork and Shannon airports are a doddle to go through. The staff are very helpful. You are in and out. You are not stuck in queues for hours or in traffic. You have to be there three hours in advance for transatlantic flights; it is way too much and it is frustrating. It is not a pleasant journey. That is for us to think about. If we expect investors to come here, we need seamless travel to get to the regions where we want industry without undue delay and being held up at airports and in traffic. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  As trains have been mentioned, I might take the opportunity to ask the Minister to engage with Irish Rail to make sure the 5.48 p.m. train from Drogheda Pearse to Malahide on Saturday evenings is a full eight-carriage train as the last two Saturdays with the gigs on----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Conor Sheehan)  You might stick to the Bill. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  -----in Malahide Castle have been half trains. They have left people behind in Donabate. I am sure the Minister will be concerned about that.  I welcome the steps being taken to remove the passenger cap at Dublin Airport. We are an island nation. We depend on connectivity. A cap on our capital city's airport, as the Minister said himself, is a cap on our growth. Dublin Airport is not only an employer of approximately 130,000 people; it is also a gateway through which Ireland does business, attracts foreign direct investment and connects to Europe and beyond. As a TD for Dublin Fingal West, or north County Dublin, it is a constituency I know to be the best in the country in which to live and work. It is also the constituency where the airport is located. I must raise a number of issues with the Minister.  The DAA has repeatedly said it is acting as a good neighbour to residents, community groups and sports and outdoor organisations affected by being close to the airport, in particular in relation to noise and traffic, but the Minister and I both know from our direct engagement with constituents that this is simply not the lived reality for many people. I urge the Minister to instruct the DAA to act fairly and genuinely invest in surrounding communities. That means widening the voluntary dwelling purchase scheme, offering fair and appropriate buy-outs to families most impacted and significantly expanding the noise insulation scheme so that homes receive high-quality, modern insulation that actually works. These measures already exist in principle but are too narrow and too limited in their application. They must be strengthened if we are serious about maintaining community trust.  The second issue is flight paths.  Following multiple engagements with the DAA, the IAA, Department officials and local residents, I have to say that I am none the wiser on flight paths. What I do know, however, is that something has changed in the last few years. That is obvious to anybody living in north County Dublin, to people working or playing outdoors, to families who were not previously impacted by noise, despite living beside the airport, but now are, and to anyone sitting on a plane departing Dublin Airport where aircraft frequently bank sharply after take-off. Adherence to safe flight paths that genuinely minimise the number of people impacted is absolutely essential. I am tired of hearing explanations that do not align with the lived experience of residents. I simply do not understand how this issue has not been resolved by now.  The third issue is traffic. A credible and detailed traffic mitigation plan is not optional; it is absolutely essential. Increased airport capacity will place additional pressure on the already strained M50 and M1 corridor. At the same time, as the Minister knows, Fingal is delivering much-needed housing at pace. That will further increase traffic volumes. We also have to factor in the disruption that will arise from the construction of MetroLink and the DAA's infrastructure development plans. The delivery of a western access road from the M2 is critical. We also need a fit-for-purpose and fully integrated transport hub at the airport, with practical measures such as sufficient ticketing infrastructure, including Leap card facilities, until such time as we have contactless payments.  I also raise a concern in relation to how the Bill is drafted. As it stands, it allows the DAA to apply to amend or revoke the passenger cap but it does not require that application to include concrete proposals on traffic mitigation, noise reduction, insulation, buyouts or any meaningful engagement with affected communities. Nor does it require those protections to be in place before the order is made. In effect, it creates a pathway for expansion without ensuring from the outset that robust and forceful protections are in place for those of us living close by the airport. I ask the Minister to look at that again and at what is included in the onus on the DAA in making this application.  Finally, I raise the question of the national aviation policy. When will we see it? If we are serious about balanced regional development, we must ensure that regional airports are also supported to grow and reach their potential. Dublin Airport cannot and should not carry the entire burden of national connectivity. I welcome progress on this important legislation but I urge the Minister to ensure the DAA genuinely acts as a good neighbour to those of us living and working in north County Dublin and to strengthen the legislation to make sure the DAA must demonstrate it is a good neighbour in any application to the Minister. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  This is serious legislation. The complexity involved in it is there for all to see. By virtue of the Minister's opening address and on any examination of the Bill, we can see just how complex this law has been in bringing it to the floor of the House. Understandably, there has been a lot of frustration among the sector owing to the delays in bringing a Bill like this to the House. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darragh O'Brien  There was no delay. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Now the Bill is before the House. I am not criticising the Minister. I am talking about the past when the Bill was not brought to the Houses, and how long it has taken for a Government, that is, this one rather than the previous one, to legislate to address this issue. I compliment the Minister on bringing the Bill to the House and bringing us to this position.  As a small, open economy, we face intense competition for the foreign direct investment that has been the bedrock of our prosperity. We do not compete for this investment for the sake of it. Investment and growth are required to fund better public services, the construction of housing and a more just society. For too long, Dublin Airport, which is the gateway to this country for investors and tourists, has been constrained by a planning condition that no longer reflects the reality we face in today's world. Passenger demand has already exceeded the cap for consecutive years, but this outdated restriction has been used to undermine our broader economic objective and limit our national potential. In my view, the Bill addresses this problem. At its core, this legislation changes something very simple. It changes who should decide the future of a piece of infrastructure that is of national importance. Dublin Airport is not a local facility; it is the gateway to Ireland for tourists, investors and people bringing jobs to this country. It is a gateway to Europe and the world for our people, students and exporters. Ultimately, the airport is the critical node underpinning the trade, tourism and investment that are the foundations of Ireland's economic success.  Given that reality, it is entirely appropriate that the Minister for Transport have the power to amend or remove a constraint that is choking the airport's and the country's potential. There is nothing progressive about supporting a measure that constrains Dublin Airport's growth. Independent research shows that over 100,000 jobs are linked to the airport and that it contributes \u20ac9.6 billion in gross value added to the Irish economy. These figures show that the benefits of allowing the airport to grow are not abstract. It will create more jobs and investment in Ireland. That is what allows us to build more housing, improve public services and invest in transport, healthcare and education.  I accept fully that this Bill involves difficult choices. It removes some planning powers from the local authority and moves them towards the centre, but that choice is justified in this instance. The airport's growth is an issue of national importance and requires considerations beyond that level.  Environmental concerns have also been raised. It is clear that the Bill takes those concerns seriously. Too often, environmental-type arguments are used as a blocking tactic by those who fundamentally do not want to see Ireland grow, develop or attract investment. Again, that is not a progressive position to take and it is certainly not in the national interest. The Bill does not disregard environmental concerns. It provides for full environmental impact assessments, appropriate assessments under EU law, public consultation and independent scrutiny. These are robust and structured safeguards, so the notion that these changes represent a free-for-all is completely unfounded. The appropriate balance, in my view, has been struck by this Bill.  The important and notable issue of noise, which Deputy Boland, as a local representative, outlined, is clearly a sensitive one in respect of Dublin Airport. Nobody can dismiss the concerns of people living near or adjacent to the airport. Equally, in order to be proportionate, using the small number of concerns people have as a justification for a veto over the growth of critical infrastructure cannot be countenanced. Importantly, in this Bill the assessments indicate that noise impacts are limited and manageable. Aircraft technology is continuously improving and the noise levels will continue to reduce over time. A blanket constraint on growth is neither proportionate nor sustainable.  Overall, this Bill is a welcome and necessary measure. It recognises the central role that Dublin Airport plays in our economy. By providing the Government with the powers necessary to act in the national interest, it will allow Ireland to remain competitive in attracting the investment that funds social progress in this country, and it does this in a way that maintains robust environmental oversight. If we are serious about building a more prosperous Ireland for everyone, we must be serious about building the infrastructure that makes this possible. This Bill does that.  I compliment the Minister on the work he has done in bringing the Bill to the House and all the work underpinning that work. I look forward to its enactment. I also look forward to the benefits that signalling the enactment of this Bill will bring to this country. The more routes that come to this country, the more investment we will see. I welcome the Bill's introduction. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darren O'Rourke  I welcome the opportunity to speak on this Bill. Dublin Airport is incredibly important strategic infrastructure for the island of Ireland. Sinn F\u00e9in does not oppose the lifting of the passenger cap in and of itself. We acknowledge the existing cap is no longer fit for purpose and we committed in our 2024 general election manifesto to address that. However, the Bill before us risks rushing headlong into expansion without a proper assessment or plan for the consequences. It fails to meet the basic test of sustainability and, very disappointingly, it seems to ignore many of the substantial recommendations from pre-legislative scrutiny. As a result, Sinn F\u00e9in will table amendments on Committee Stage. I will now outline three of these.  First, the Minister must ensure that the commencement of this Bill is contingent upon a comprehensive and independent assessment of the economic implications of lifting the cap, modelled on CE Delft analysis for Schiphol Airport. The model is there.  The assessment must look beyond balance sheets. It must consider the impacts on health, housing, education, water, transport and the social fabric of our communities. It must also look at the impact of lifting the cap on other airports and regional and local economies on the island, and aviation policy more generally. As the UN special rapporteur on the right to help the environment noted during her visit to Ireland, \"urgency cannot justify bypassing our obligation to undertake comprehensive ... assessments\". The Minister should not ignore that advice.  Second, the Minister should take the opportunity to improve aviation sector governance in the Bill. Sinn F\u00e9in will push for a review of the structure and operation of the Aircraft Noise Competent Authority to be completed within 12 months. If the airport is to grow, we need a regulator that is truly independent and robust enough to perform its duties and protect local residents. Currently, the body being regulated, the DAA, is responsible for collecting and collating data, including complaints data. This is an anomaly that has eroded public trust and it must be changed.  Third, and crucially, we need an independent evaluation of the airport's flight paths. This evaluation must be completed within nine months and present proposals for alternative routes. An essential goal of this evaluation must be to minimise noise impact on existing neighbours and nearby residents. Communities in places like Ratoath, Ashbourne and St. Margaret's and the Ward are being ignored and left in the dark. They are facing unauthorised flight paths, sleepless nights and, in some cases, worse. There is a better way to do things. Local experts have gone a long way towards spelling that out. The Minister must insist on action in this regard. That is what our amendment will seek to achieve.  Everyone can recognise that Dublin Airport is a vital national asset, but it cannot be treated as a law unto itself. Growth must be planned, transparent and mindful of the families who live in the airport's shadow. Sinn F\u00e9in will work constructively with the Government to ensure this happens and hold the Minister to account on these fundamental points. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Conor Sheehan)  Ag bogadh ar aghaidh go dt\u00ed P\u00e1irt\u00ed an Lucht Oibre, glaoim ar an Teachta Ahern. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ciar\u00e1n Ahern","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ciar\u00e1n Ahern  I will share my time with Deputy Smith. This is an aggressively anti-climate Bill. This Government is making it clear to us that climate, environment or biodiversity considerations have absolutely no place when it comes to our aviation policy. It is ironic that we are debating this proposal to add potentially limitless additional carbon into our atmosphere on the same day that we are suffering with record temperatures, with hot weather warnings across Europe. We have heard that 40 people have drowned in France over the past few days due to the heat. Children are dying in cars, Europe is heating at twice the rate of the rest of the world and this is where our Government's priorities lie. This is the third Bill produced this term that seeks to disapply the climate Act. We have seen it with the infrastructure Bill, we are seeing it with this Bill and we will see it later again this week with the liquified natural gas, or LNG, reserve Bill.  Section 39 provides that section 15 of the climate Act will not apply, having regard to the likely consequences for the economy of the State and international connectivity if an order is not made. This effectively amounts to a legislative predetermination that economic interests and connectivity, whatever the hell that means, completely override climate considerations. Even our birds and natural habitats regulations are in the crossfire. The Minister will point to section 15 and assure us all that environmental impact assessments will be carried out and so on, but those provisions are rendered essentially meaningless by section 25, which states that, in effect, the Minister can just ignore or override an environmental condition from An Coimisi\u00fan Plean\u00e1la following an EIA. Basically, the whole environmental assessment process in the Bill is advisory, at best.  Moreover, in cases where the commission determines there are likely to be adverse affects on habitats from a proposal to increase the cap, the Minister can unilaterally decide there are \"imperative reasons of overriding public interest\" in the proposal going ahead. There is no requirement on the Minister to engage in any sort of consultation in coming to that decision. He might opt to consult the housing Minister, An Coimisi\u00fan Plean\u00e1la, the DAA and other Ministers, but only where the Minister is already of the opinion that the public interest provision already exists. There is no obligation to consult any dedicated climate and environmental bodies, such as the Climate Change Advisory Council, the EPA or, indeed, the climate Minister at any stage in this process. For the record, not once is the climate and environment Minister mentioned in this Bill. References to the housing Minister appear repeatedly. Given that section 39 explicitly disapplies section 15 of the climate Act for both the Minister and An Coimisi\u00fan Plean\u00e1la, the absence of any consultation with the climate Minister is beyond concerning.  It is becoming increasingly clear that there has been a significant amount of corporate capture of this Government, whether it is this Bill, which could have been written by Michael O'Leary himself, the data centre drive or the LNG Bill, which is being brought through to ensure continuity of its ever-increasing gas demands. We will keep hearing an economic argument from the Government on removing the passenger cap, and I will come back to that, but we need to be honest about what this Bill will do. Scrapping the passenger cap at Dublin Airport means more flights, more pollution and higher emissions at a time when Ireland is already dangerously off track on climate action. Any hypothetical economic gains from removing the cap, and those are debatable, could be wiped out by the \u20ac26 billion in fines we might be facing from failing to meet our climate targets.  This Bill does not just raise the current cap of 32 million passengers, which, for the record, Dublin Airport has consistently broken in recent years, to some higher figure. It allows the Minister to scrap the cap altogether. There is no alternative ceiling proposed. The Minister has floated a figure of 60 million passengers a year, almost doubling the current limit. As per anything one might expect on climate from this Government, there is a clause exempting the Minister from having regard to section 15 of the climate Act when making this decision. If this expansion is sustainable, as the Minister says, why is the Government running scared of the climate action Act under environmental legislation?  The Minister and this Government are intent on compounding our already abysmal record on climate and are abandoning any pretence of caring or wanting to at least try to catch up on what we have legally committed to. Against the backdrop of our failure in achieving our climate and emission reductions targets, the Government is now proposing a policy change that independent analysis suggests will see flight emissions increase by 24% if passenger numbers rise to 40 million. That is almost 581,000 tonnes of additional CO2 by 2034, and 40 million passengers is a conservative scenario. As I said, the Minister suggested 60 million passengers, in time. However, it is fine according to the Government because international aviation emissions are not counted towards our national emission figures. Our emissions obviously impact globally, and in a world where only 5% of our global population has ever taken a flight, to suggest that because we do not count international aviation emissions means it is okay to expand exponentially betrays a total disregard for any semblance of global climate justice.  This Government is rapidly losing any credibility internationally and here at home when it comes to the climate crisis. That has consequences. It cannot, on the one hand, tell our workers, farmers, hauliers and households that they must bear the cost of our decarbonisation efforts and, on the other, wave through unlimited aviation growth with a legislative shield against its own climate Act. People will understandably start to question why they should bother when those at the top are not only allowed to continue to pollute on a massive scale, but are actually being facilitated to increase their emissions.  This is a bowing down to corporate interests and greed dressed up in the language of connectivity and competitiveness. This is not just a moral failing; it is a legal one too. Notwithstanding the disapplication of our own climate laws, under Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights, the State has a positive obligation to protect its citizens from the foreseeable harms of the climate crisis. I do not mean that in an abstract sense. The European Court of Human Rights found exactly this in the recent KlimaSeniorinnen Schweiz case against Switzerland. The Dutch Supreme Court found likewise in the Urgenda Foundation case and the International Court of Justice, in its advisory opinion last year, confirmed that states must use all means at their disposal to prevent harm from greenhouse gas emissions, including, expressly, emissions from fossil fuel consumption, which includes aviation fuel.  A legal analysis of the passenger cap removal commissioned by Opportunity Green and prepared by barrister Tim Johnston of Brick Court Chambers sets out plainly that Ireland, already behind in our own targets and comparable countries and already in breach of climate commitments, is exposed to a credible claim that lifting this cap, while simultaneously excepting the decision from climate scrutiny, constitutes a breach of Article 8 of the ECHR. I am sure a copy of that report has been shared with the Minister. Not only are we risking our climate, but the Government is also actively risking public funds in litigation that this analysis tells us is entirely foreseeable.  The Minister has relied on the environmental impact assessment provisions as a way of getting around the climate argument.  He knows well that this is a wholly inadequate framework for assessing the climate impact of this decision. As section 15 of the 2015 Act will not apply, any environmental impact assessment carried out under this Bill cannot properly account for the national transition objective or our greenhouse gas mitigation obligations. In any case, are we really to believe that an environmental impact assessment will throw up something that will make the Minister reverse course on this? It is literally written into the Bill that he can simply ignore such assessments. It is a fait accompli . However, we have clear jurisprudence from several different courts, including the ECHR and the UK Supreme Court, that environmental impact assessments for high-emitting projects must comprehensively assess downstream combustion emissions, must look at scopes 1, 2 and 3 emissions and must be grounded in the best available science. The cases in the rulings of these courts involve fossil fuel extraction but the logic applies equally to a project that will materially increase aviation emissions into the future. If this Government proceeds with an assessment framework that does not capture the full climate footprint of additional flights, arrivals and departures, carbon dioxide and non-carbon dioxide effects alike, it is inviting a legal challenge that, on the weight of recent European jurisprudence, it stands a real chance of losing. Exempting the Minister from section 15 of the climate Act does not make the climate consequences disappear; it defers them and it leaves even less room to manoeuvre for every future Minister, planning authority and local councillor, who will all have to find emissions reductions elsewhere to compensate for the growth this Bill will unleash. We are still waiting to hear from the Minister on where the equivalent emissions reductions will come from. Will it be farmers who are asked to pick up the slack, those in the transport sector or regular households, many of whom are already doing their best to be environmentally conscious? It is households in the Minister's own constituency who will feel the impact of this move most immediately by virtue of the fact that they live under the flight paths.  The consequences here are being pushed further downstream to the local planning authority, which can fiddle with planning conditions but cannot touch the one lever that actually matters: the number of aircraft flying overhead. We have seen where this can lead us. A ruling in the Hague District Court in 2024 stated that the Dutch Government had acted unlawfully in failing to protect residents near Schiphol Airport from noise pollution, breaching Article 8 of the ECHR, and ordered the Government to provide practical and effective protections to those affected. The same protections under Article 8 apply to residents here, and further protections apply under Article 40.3 of our own Constitution, which obliges the State to protect the property rights of every citizen. The assessment provisions in this Bill are unlikely to meet even the basic common law obligations to consult those whose rights are affected.  I referred earlier to the Minister making decisions on this cap based on economic interests and international connectivity. Can the Minister please define \"international connectivity\"? There is no definition in this Bill. Does it mean routes to specific destinations, frequency of services, the number of carriers or some other aggregate measures? We know we live on an island and we know we do not want to be stranded here but how much connectivity is enough? This approach to connectivity is just like the Government's approach to the unmitigated expansion of data centres. How much is enough? If the Minister is basing his decision on international connectivity, it would be helpful to know what the actual metric is.  On the economic case, I point the Minister to a study commissioned by the social council for Schiphol Airport. It examined what would happen to broad welfare under three different scenarios for the size of the airport in terms of flight numbers. Broad welfare, for the benefit of this House, is a framework that goes beyond GDP to capture economic output. It looks at employment, health, housing, noise, nature and climate all together, precisely the kind of holistic accounting that this Government has failed to apply to its own decision on Dublin Airport. The findings are instructive, and I seriously encourage the Minister to examine the report. The study found that even a substantially smaller Schiphol, with 250,000 flights, barely half of today's traffic, could still preserve a large majority of the connectivity that Dutch travellers actually use because the destinations that disappear are disproportionately sustained by transfer passengers rather than Dutch residents. The extra journey time imposed on the average traveller was measured in minutes, not hours. The most salient finding of this report, however, is that the aviation sector losses are dwarfed by the climate gains. In other words, restraint on flight numbers does not just reduce harm: on the Dutch evidence, it produces a net welfare gain once climate costs are properly priced in, even after aviation sector losses are accounted for. This study also acknowledges that capacity caps are not the only option. It refers to a cost-benefit analysis of the options available to Schiphol, tellingly titled \"Shrink or become sustainable?\". The analysis found that environmental and noise measures, including a higher distance-based flight tax, delivered considerably greater broad welfare benefits than a blunt capacity restriction does, precisely because pricing instruments let you target the noisiest, most polluting, longest haul flights rather than cutting capacity indiscriminately.  The lesson, then, is not that caps are the only available tool; it is that doing nothing and simply lifting the cap with no replacement mechanism, as the Government is doing here, is the worst of all options. Reducing flights or pricing their environmental cost properly can deliver a net gain for society. Unlimited expansion, on this evidence, risks a net loss.  What is more is that we have a persistent travel deficit in this country. Irish people spend more abroad than tourists spend here, so more flights actually takes more money out of the country than it brings in. Research shows this and it undermines the Government's claim that aviation expansion is an unqualified economic benefit. The serious international evidence shows that the relationship between airport size and national prosperity is far weaker than that assumption and that the environmental and health costs of unrestrained growth are not some marginal externality to be waved away. They are large enough, on a comparable European analysis, to turn an apparently pro-growth decision into a net loss for the country as a whole.  Finally - and this is frankly pathetic - this Bill provides an open invitation for airlines to bully the Government and talk down Ireland if they perceive that there is some inhibitor to their commercial interests in Dublin. Section 25 gives licence to the Minister to change planning conditions where they are perceived to be potentially damaging to \"the international reputation of the State in respect of air transport\". This is extremely open ended and essentially unfalsifiable. There is no objective standard for reputational damage, no evidence threshold, no definition. The provision could be invoked on the basis of adverse commentary from Michael O'Leary, a familiar noise to all of us. What do we think will happen here? We will have an airline lobby that is never happy and we will have incessant calls to expand and expand, with the airlines knowing that if they paint Ireland in an unsavoury light, they will get their way. We are enshrining corporate bullying of the State in our law. That is embarrassing and it is the cherry on top of what is fundamentally a regressive and bad policy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Duncan Smith","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Duncan-Smith.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Duncan-Smith.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Duncan Smith  Last week the Minister accused the Labour Party and, by implication, myself of being anti-Dublin Airport and anti-growth. He knows me and the Labour Party better than that. This is a far more complex issue than he purports or presents it to be. I know where I stand on the airport, and my record stands up in terms of representing airport workers at all grades and all levels through the Covid pandemic and all the other difficulties. I want the airport to thrive but not at any cost. The values of the Labour Party, in terms of this Bill, are based on good planning and standing up for a good planning system. The implication of this Bill is that Fingal County Council, the local planning authority, is in some way unable to deal with the complexities, the needs, the desires and the implications of Dublin Airport in a planning capacity, that this has to be taken out of the airport's control because it does not have the expertise or the professionalism to deal with it, that this has to be taken in centrally and that only the Minister can determine what is right for Dublin Airport.  Nothing could be further from the truth. DAA, under previous leadership, has actively polluted its relationship with Fingal County Council. The planning application DAA put in in 2023 to raise the passenger cap was one of the largest planning applications ever submitted to Fingal County Council. The application was declared invalid by Fingal County Council, which said it failed to comply with various planning and development regulations and was misleading, inadequate and non-compliant with relevant regulations. In addition, DAA failed to ask for a series of pre-planning meetings with Fingal County Council. That is absolutely incredible for a planning application of that size and that import. By the way, it was not just about raising the cap; this was about 11 huge buildings, with tunnels under the aprons. It was a massive planning application. DAA put it in designed to fail because, ultimately, it wanted to get this matter here. It wanted to get its desires in the ear of the Minister on some amorphous definition of growth, which, as my colleague outlined, is difficult, almost impossible, to define. It is, however, a great weapon to throw at Opposition Members who have issues with this Bill: \"You are anti-growth.\" We are not anti-growth. We are pro-climate, yes, but we are also pro-good planning.  This passenger cap was brought in as a condition of the north runway through the planning system and it should have been dealt with and tackled through the planning system.  The fact that it was not is not the fault of the planning authority or the planning system; the fault is squarely on the DAA. This semi-State organisation rented trucks with loudhailers to drive up and down Swords Main Street in front of Fingal County Council's office, saying, \"Get rid of the passenger cap\". They sent them down to Croke Park when Dublin were playing in the all-Ireland last year, the loudhailers going, \"Get rid of the passenger cap\". This was childish, ridiculous behaviour, totally unbecoming of any organisation, never mind a State agency with such strategic importance as Dublin Airport Authority.  As for this whole thing that opposition to this is down to some NIMBYs in north County Dublin, we have to put that to bed as well. Deputy Michael Healy-Rae earlier was saying the airport was there before the residents. That is an absolute fallacy in terms of the reality of the situation. When it comes to aircraft noise, residents on an east-west trajectory were given insulation - some were - and the day the north runway opened, the planes took off and deviated 30% north and flew over Rolestown, Ballyboughal and other villages in north County Dublin which had seen big growth in housing and were not covered by noise insulation. They had done their due diligence when they bought their homes. They were told they were not going to be under flight paths. It turns out the wool was pulled over their eyes by the DAA and now they are being flown over every day and have no recourse.  These residents are airport people. They understand aviation and the airport better than the vast majority of people in this House. They do not want the airport to fail or aviation to fail, but they want a bit of fairness. They want the DAA to act professionally. I am not even going to get into the point about good neighbours and bad neighbours because that has been well made. They want the DAA to act professionally but how the DAA has acted over the last number of years and under the previous leadership has been an absolute disgrace.  We now have a Bill which is going to have untold consequences in terms of the planning system. It is a template for when a Government is unhappy with a planning condition or decision of any local authority; it will just bring in some primary legislation. My colleague, Deputy Ahern, has articulated incredibly well the setting aside of the climate action Act. It is a huge concern. The DAA has brought us here, the squeaky wheel is getting the oil and it is going to have huge impacts on our planning system and on our climate. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cormac Devlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cormac-Devlin.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cormac-Devlin.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cormac Devlin  I welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Dublin Airport (Passenger Capacity) Bill 2026. Last year, the airport saw 36.4 million passengers travel through it. It was the busiest year in the airport\u2019s history, up more than 5% on the year before. Passenger numbers there have grown by 46% in the last decade. The cap is set at 32 million, so last year the airport carried more than 4 million people above the limit that was imposed on it. The demand is real and the growth is real. The cap is the one thing standing against both. This is the heart of the matter.  We are not debating whether people want to fly to and from Ireland; they already are, in record numbers. We are debating whether the law should keep pretending they cannot. Dublin Airport is not just a transport hub; it is one of the largest pieces of critical economic infrastructure in the State. An independent study commissioned by DAA found that the airport contributes \u20ac9.6 billion in gross value added to the Irish economy. This is the equivalent of 2.3% of the entire national economy. It supports or facilitates over 116,000 jobs across the Republic. This is not a Dublin story alone. The same study found that 28% of the airport\u2019s economic contribution lands outside Dublin and the rest of Leinster, and that 31% of the jobs it sustains are across the rest of the country. When Dublin Airport grows, Wexford, Donegal and Kerry grow. The gateway is in Dublin and the benefit is of national importance. That is the figure that should focus minds.  The same independent analysis found that holding the cap at 32 million would cost Ireland an additional 17,800 jobs and \u20ac1.5 billion in economic value by 2030. This is the price of inaction, not a saving. It is a loss for the country. As an island nation with an open economy, connectivity is not a convenience for us; it is the condition of trade, tourism and investment. Research consistently shows that well-connected economies export far more than poorly connected ones. The cap works against every one of those elements, and it does so at our own expense. If a route cannot land in Dublin, it lands in another European capital instead. The connectivity goes elsewhere and so do the jobs. The cap does not protect Ireland, it penalises Ireland.  This Bill does not ignore the people who live around the airport. Their concerns, which were raised earlier, about noise and flight movements are legitimate, and they are taken seriously in this legislation. Before the Minister can make any order, An Coimisi\u00fan Plean\u00e1la must carry out a full environmental impact assessment and an appropriate assessment, in line with EU law, with public consultation built in. The Minister must take account of the outcome. That is the right sequence: lift the cap, but do it lawfully, transparently, and with the environment properly assessed.  The Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport did serious work in this regard. It received 136 submissions, held six public hearings, and made 16 recommendations. The Bill reflects that scrutiny. The Minister\u2019s power is confined to the passenger cap alone, an order falls away once a planning decision replaces it and the assessments are built into the process rather than bolted on after it. Some will ask why we cannot simply wait for the planning system. The honest answer is time. A planning decision on DAA\u2019s application to raise the cap to 40 million is expected later this year or early next. It is likely to be appealed, if not judicially reviewed. That could add another year of uncertainty. Airlines plan their networks years in advance. They cannot plan against a moving target. This Bill provides a lawful interim solution that addresses the cap while the planning process runs its course, and it protects that live application so nothing here delays it.  I welcome the Bill. It is a measure for jobs, connectivity and the economy. It is balanced and, on the evidence, it is needed now. I ask the Minister to confirm that the stakeholder forum planned for July will give the communities around the airport a clear and meaningful voice, alongside the airlines and the airport itself. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Ward.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Barry-Ward.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Ward  I broadly welcome this Bill. It is, however, correctly contentious and controversial in circumstances where we as a country and as a planet face an extraordinary challenge in terms of reducing emissions and dealing with the consequences of climate change, which we see today as we all schlep around here in suits, sweating. I do have reservations about the de facto setting aside of the climate action legislation in the context of this removal of the cap, and also later this week in the context of the gas reserve Bill. It is problematic to entirely throw out responsibility in that regard. I would like to hear from the Minister what safeguards he has put in place to deal with that. Creating an open-ended situation is not the right answer, either.  I say that, however, conscious of the fact that Dublin Airport is the primary route to get people and goods in and out of this country, particularly from further afield. We are an island country and we do rely on air transport to get people on and off the island and to get goods in and out. I recognise the reality of the situation and the fact that steps have to be taken. Reference has been made by many speakers in this debate to the growth of over 40% in terms of passenger accommodation in the airport, and of over 36.4 million people in the airport last year. That is entirely predictable in circumstances where our population has grown by over a million in the past less than ten years. We know the country is growing. It makes sense, therefore, that the cap would also grow. You cannot have a situation where the population is getting bigger and bigger and, by extension, the demand for air transport is growing, and not reflect that in terms of the changes that are being made to the cap. I accept the necessity for this. When we look at air transport in other European countries, there is not the same restriction on airports in other European capitals as there might be in Dublin. It does not mean we throw the baby out with the bathwater or say that there should be no limit or control. I know the Bill does not say there is no control and there are procedures for orders by Minister and all the rest. I am just sounding a note of caution in relation to the complete removal of the restriction. I wonder about where the trade-off is. It does not remove our obligations in terms of meeting climate targets or emissions reduction targets. Where is the counterpoint?  Where is the point where we are going to enhance our emissions reduction if we are now de facto going to increase emissions from the airport? We know that emissions from the airport have increased with the increased air transport in and out. Again, I recognise it might be a necessity that comes with that but I also recognise that we have a necessity to act in terms of climate change and the level of emissions being produced here in Ireland, so what sector is going to have enhanced work to reduce emissions? Where are we going to counterbalance the effect of removing this cap to ensure that we do not let the situation with emissions completely run away with itself and leave ourselves and, by extension, everybody else on the planet in a very difficult position? I would love to hear a comprehensive answer to that question. I am not sure it is an easy question to answer, in fairness to the Minister of State, but I do think that we need to keep a check on our progression towards emissions targets and how we are going to manage that.  I do not have a difficulty with increasing air traffic in and out of the airport; I think it is a necessity. It is a reflection of the reality but, therefore, we must look at some other sector where we can reduce them. The Minister of State will be aware that there are other sectors where we are not reaching targets or making the emissions reductions we need to make. Let us have that grown-up conversation, recognising the reality, and decide what we are going to do in the other areas to ensure that we do not just let the whole thing get away from us, which is a real danger now. We can see the effects of climate change in real terms, not just with hot weather but also with stormy weather and the effects that global warming generally has on weather systems and the risk we face as a country and as a world in terms of what those emissions are going to do. That is my primary concern. In principle, I do not have a problem with this but I do have a problem with the notion that we just scrap a realistic attempt to meet our climate ambitions and our emissions reductions.  It is a very well put-together Bill but I do have some issues with it. The first is the use of \"daa\" in lower-case letters. That is a branding function of Dublin Airport. It has created it and trades as daa. In statutory terms, my understanding from looking at section 2 of the State Airports Act 2004 is that it is DAA - Dublin Airport Authority with a capital \"D\", capital \"A\" and capital \"A\". I do not see where that has changed anywhere in legislation - I am open to correction in that regard - but the use of lower-case letters, which is a branding function by Dublin Airport, is replete throughout this Bill. It is like what happened when the Child and Family Agency suddenly became Tusla. Nobody actually authorised that in statute. It is the Child and Family agency but is routinely referred to by its marketing name, which is Tusla. That is all very well but I just wonder about that in the context of a statutory piece of legislation going through these Houses. The reference to daa is defined in the Bill as the Dublin Airport Authority - the company, that is - but I do not think it is appropriate to refer to it using lower-case letters in the marketing term.  I will now turn to provisions later on in the Bill that relate to judicial review. Section 29 changes the test for bringing judicial review against any order or any decision made and requires the applicant in judicial review proceedings to establish substantial grounds, which is a much higher bar than is usually required for judicial review. Similarly, section 30(2) removes permission for the applicant to amend the grounds on which leave was granted, which is done as a matter of course in judicial review proceedings. Sometimes circumstances will change or information will become available that will require the change of the grounds on which leave is being granted. This is part of a broader Government attitude to judicial review. I understand that judicial review is a pain and that it obstructs things and can delay things but it is also a constitutional right of the citizens of this State to go to the courts to review the administrative decisions of the Government, Departments and other agencies. It is an important right and I do not know about the constitutionality of curtailing that right in the way that it is being curtailed in sections 29 and 30, for example. If we are concerned about the length of time it takes to bring judicial reviews, it would be much better to invest in speeding up the process of the courts, investing in something akin to what was done in the Commercial Court over 20 years ago. It would involve investing in more judges and more resources for the Courts Service so that people could still have their opportunity to challenge decisions and do so in a real and meaningful way under the Constitution, but it would be done in a faster and more efficient way. I recognise it is a problem but the answer is not to curtail the rights of citizens to challenge the administrative decisions of Departments and agencies. The answer is actually to facilitate it to a much greater extent and I wonder if the constitutionality of those specific provisions has been really thought through from the point of view that they curtail citizens' rights. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ann Graves","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ann-Graves.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ann-Graves.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ann Graves  As a an island economy, Ireland's connectivity is essential and, to maximise the benefits to our economy, we need an ambitious aviation strategy. That does not mean that all roads lead to Dublin Airport, which is just as well considering the traffic mayhem there at the moment and the lack of a sustainable transport system. A successful strategy demands balanced, connected infrastructure that leads to sustainable rural and regional development.  There is an all-Ireland dimension that also needs to be addressed. Brexit demonstrated how important trade into and out of this island is. Dublin Airport has long been operating over capacity. The passenger cap is not fit for purpose and was never adhered to. In 2019, 2023, 2024 and 2025, the DAA knowingly ignored and exceeded the cap. Last year alone, the cap was exceeded by over four million passengers.  As this Bill is very light on detail, Sinn F\u00e9in will be tabling amendments to address this. We will propose amendments to mandate the Government to update our national aviation policy, ensure balanced regional development and set out a long-term strategy for Dublin Airport that includes an all-Ireland dimension. The lifting of the passenger cup must be done in an organised fashion that benefits not just airlines and big business but also the wider community. To ensure this happens, our proposed amendments to the Bill would ensure that residents, community groups and other stakeholders are fully consulted with. Despite what the Minister says, residents feel that they are being ignored. The lifting of the cap will also require that adequate and well-resourced infrastructure is put in place to meet the extra demands from increased passenger numbers. This was one of the reasons for the cap in the first place. It was a condition of planning for the north runway development. This means a better public transport system that includes delivering the long overdue metro north project.  The lifting of the cap cannot be allowed to contribute to worsening the traffic chaos that already exists in Swords and Dublin Fingal East. We will also be seeking wider investment in insulation, better buy-out deals, agreed flight paths and overall better protection for residents. I understand why local residents are frustrated and angry. The DAA's engagement with residents has been consistently poor. It is not a good neighbour. Residents have been forced to take court action to ensure that their voices are heard. The cap is now subject to legal challenge under EU law. If the cap is not lifted before the forthcoming European court ruling, this could force the IAA to enforce the cap more strictly. This would have a very negative impact on Ireland's economy, particularly on our tourism sector. Regardless of the court ruling, local residents must be heard and included in a meaningful way by both the DAA and Fingal County Council.  There are a number of important unresolved matters that must be addressed, including night flights, flight paths, noise and kerosene fumes from planes waiting to take off. Night-time flights are of particular concern, with flights permitted at the airport increasing from an average of 65 a night to 95 between 11 p.m. and 7 a.m. Long before I was elected to local or central government, I stood with the residents in St. Margaret's The Ward and the people of Swords who have sought a better life and I have continued to engage with the wider community in Fingal east. I live in Swords and I represent the people in Donabate, Portmarnock, Malahide, Portrane and Kinsealy - all of the areas that are worst affected by noise at varying degrees. When I was on the council, I had a motion unanimously agreed for the Fingal development plan that highlighted the need to tackle the serious health and safety issue of noise pollution for the local community. Unfortunately this motion was ruled out of order under the direction of the then Minister.  The proposed legislation does not effectively deal with residents' concerns, including in respect of health and well-being. I can assure residents of Fingal east that I have heard their concerns and we will work tirelessly to ensure they are addressed. Our priority will be to mandate the DAA to engage meaningfully with residents; to enhance community compensation, including for voluntary relocation, improved insulation and mitigation measures; and to address the variations in flight paths while protecting residents and staff. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruth Coppinger  If there is anything we do not need during a climate emergency when we are literally having a heatwave right now - we had one two weeks ago and we will probably have many more over the rest of the summer - and when the world is literally burning, it is the Minister is coming in today to lift the passenger cap on flights at Dublin Airport. People are saying that we need this for growth. We need to do something about the climate emergency and we should actually be reducing flights rather than aiming to increase them in any way, shape or form.  It has been amusing to listen to the contributions of some people who normally jump up and down about Dublin being the fount of all evil. This proposal is really against balanced regional development. I am shocked that some of those who complain about Dublin getting everything are okay with lifting the passenger cap on Dublin Airport. Currently, Dublin gets ten times more passengers than Cork. Dublin is the capital city but it does not have ten times the population of Cork. After this measure, it is estimated that passenger numbers will increase by 22% by 2031.  Aviation accounts for approximately 6% of our carbon emissions, with Dublin Airport making up some 85% of that. What we have seen from the Government is that the environment just does not matter. Whether it is data centres or flights, the message is that we are open for business no matter what. A Fine Gael Deputy asked how this measure will be made up for elsewhere in the economy. No answer has been given but it seems that Deputy will line up to vote for the Bill. The other issue is that the Bill comes at the request of Ryanair and the American airlines. Ryanair's carbon emissions are now 50% higher than they were in 2019, which is the largest increase among the top 20 most polluting airlines worldwide.  There are real environmental issues associated with lifting the passenger cap. When so much is already going through Dublin, there are implications for balanced regional development. Is there any other airport without a rail line that would lift its passenger cap? It is absolutely farcical that people walking out of Dublin Airport have to get a bus or taxi. I do not know of any other capital where there is talk of enlarging its airport in that situation. There will be increased car traffic as a result. A metro line from the airport to the city is in the dim and distant future. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darragh O'Brien  Construction starts next year. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruth Coppinger  There are issues for residents. An earlier speaker said that everyone living in a house near the airport knew this would happen. In fact, people did not know. There are lots of much older communities in the area that predate the airport. People certainly did not know there would be relentless growth of the airport. The impact of airport noise on people's sleep is being studied worldwide, including by Dr. John Garvey, director of the sleep laboratory at St. Vincent's hospital. His evidence shows that airport noise leads to more cardiovascular issues in affected areas and those statistics are backed up internationally. We do not know what impact the lifting of the cap will have specifically on night flights but it will mean many more flights and much more noise for those impacted. In 2024, 6,700 more people were affected by airport noise, which was a big increase on the previous year.  Another issue is the lack of democracy. Fingal County Council will have any controls in relation to the airport taken from it, and the Minister is happy with that. It is being done because elected councillors are much closer to communities and residents. It is anti-democratic. As I said, airport noise in the Fingal area leads to a huge number of health issues and the lifting of the passenger cap will make that situation worse.  The Minister is from one of the impacted areas. The lifting of a passenger cap in any airport during a climate emergency would have to be queried. Will he answer the question asked by a Fine Gael Deputy before he came into the Chamber as to how the increase in carbon emissions will be made up for elsewhere in the economy and in society? We should know that before we vote on this Bill. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Roderic O'Gorman  Ireland is an island nation and we all recognise the necessity of airport connectivity for our people and our economy. We already have good air links and they will continue. The question before us today is whether this legislation is a proportionate and appropriate way to balance our commitment to a connected island with our obligations to meet climate targets, protect local communities and care for our environment. My concern is that the Bill does not even make an attempt at balancing those competing needs. Instead, we have legislation that is one-sided in its focus, was constructed entirely with the desires of one set of stakeholders in mind, ignoring all others, and creates a set of real risks.  The first and probably most glaring issue with the Bill is its direct effort to undermine the signature climate action legislation that is intended to keep Ireland on track to meet its climate obligations. Last month, the Environmental Protection Agency reported that Ireland is on track to significantly exceed its 2030 climate limits. With less than four years until we are supposed to reduce our 2018 emissions level by 50%, the Minister has already announced that we are far off track. Raising the passenger cap by just 8 million is likely to increase flight emissions by about 24%. Yet, the Minister has indicated in remarks he has made over the past year that he wants to double the numbers currently going through Dublin Airport. This is not about saying people should not fly. It is inevitable that people will fly out of and into Ireland. The question is whether it makes sense to have absolutely no upper limit on flight numbers going through Dublin Airport, with all the connected climate, environmental and community impacts of that approach.  Just as significant is the message the Bill is sending on national climate commitments. In recent years, the Government has tried to undermine the climate Acts in numerous ways, particularly by way of legislative mechanisms. The Critical Infrastructure Bill, the Development (Strategic Gas Reserve) Bill and this Bill each contain specific carve-outs to exempt the particular issue they deal with from scrutiny under section 15 of the 2015 Act. There is a sense almost of pre-emptive guilt on the part of the Government. The exemptions are an admission that it knows these legislative measures will not stand up to scrutiny from a climate perspective. It is seeking to forestall any opposition before it even starts. In essence, the Government is seeking to remove even any monitoring of some of the most carbon-intensive industries in our country at a time when we are significantly failing in our climate commitments.  This is not an abstract issue. It exposes us to serious environmental, social and financial risks. We know there is a cost to non-compliance that is in a range somewhere between \u20ac8 billion and \u20ac26 billion. The removal of the obligation to adhere to section 15 of the climate action Act in relation to the passenger cap does not remove the Government's wider obligations under national law, international law or, indeed, under the European Convention on Human Rights. A legal opinion that was sought on the Bill found the lifting of the cap without introducing any other protections will expose the Government to a credible claim that it is in breach of Article 8 of the convention, which concerns the right to protection of private and family life, by failing to shield its citizens from the health impacts of the climate crisis. The same opinion also found the State had a procedural obligation to conduct an environmental impact assessment, EIA, including of all CO2 and non-CO2 emissions from arriving and departing flights, or face significant risk of being challenged in the courts.  The Bill will not make our climate commitments go away but it does leave significantly less room for manoeuvre for all sectors of our economy that are not insulated from scrutiny in the way the Bill insulates the aviation sector. In effect, one sector will have no upward cap on its emissions, while others will have to constrain themselves even further to allow that to happen. The legal opinion I mentioned makes that point quite starkly: \"The disapplication of section 15 of the 2015 Act ... directly impacts Ireland's climate targets, as the significant emissions associated with the Cap Repeal will significantly constrain the margin of discretion of public authorities to make strategic decisions about future infrastructure.\"  In short, this Bill is robbing Peter to pay Paul. Any disapplication will push climate costs away from aviation onto other sections of the economy and other sections of our society. Future infrastructure projects will be increasingly jeopardised and constrained to mitigate the consequences of what I would say is the reckless deregulation proposed in this legislation. The justification for all this that we have heard from the Minister this evening is that this Bill is critical for economic growth for our country, when no cost-benefit analysis has been carried out and we know current activity levels at the airport are incurring health-related costs, as outlined by other Deputies. A recent report by the UK Department for Transport on the economic implications from the expansion of Heathrow Airport found that the positive gains were outweighed by the social and environmental impact, which for that airport was estimated at between \u00a358 billion and \u00a382 billion. An independent cost-benefit analysis of the impact of this expansion is necessary, and that should have been conducted in advance of legislation being moved forward.  Compounding the Government's unbalanced approach to the legislation is the attitude that has been taken to stakeholder engagement. In preparation for this debate, I asked the Minister via a parliamentary question to provide information about the companies and the lobbyists he had met to discuss this Bill. The result is quite stark. The Minister and the Taoiseach were very willing to engage with the airlines and their representatives and that is absolutely fine; they are lobbyists. However, no efforts were made to engage with the environmental organisations to get alternative perspectives on this particular area. I note in particular that a number of environmental organisations actively sought engagement with the Minister, including Children's Rights Over Flights and Friends of the Earth, and these meetings were not granted on this issue. This is not a balanced approach. It appears that in the drafting of this legislation that perspective about the environment was entirely absent from considerations.  Deputy O'Brien is the Minister for Transport but he is also the Minister with responsibility for the environment and climate. Yet, he seems allergic to meeting organisations representing those particular interests. This lack of consultation feeds into the way in which this legislation is likely to impact on local communities. It does not appear the key concerns that local communities have voiced throughout this process and in detail at the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport, when we heard on this issue, have been taken into account in a meaningful way in this Bill. Since the north runway entered operation, local residents living close to Dublin Airport have already highlighted significant concerns around a range of issues, particularly the issue of noise. I know the Minister has constituents in his constituency who have undoubtedly brought this issue to his attention. Deputy Coppinger and I have heard from people in places like Hollystown, Hollywoodrath and Tyrrelstown, where the impact of noise is a regular issue and particularly the change in flight paths from what people were told to what actually was eventually permitted. Of course, all of this is taking place with the current restriction and current cap in place.  I understand the Minister met residents of St. Margaret's and The Ward last month. I think they provided the Minister with an economic analysis they have done of the costs to health, particularly from noise generated from the airport. Local residents are already being severely impacted by the current levels of activity at Dublin Airport but, again, instead of engaging meaningfully with those concerns, this proposal is to introduce potentially limitless increases in the number of flights on top of the existing problematic patterns. I know from FOI requests that there has been more correspondence between the Minister and Airlines for America than with local groups. In advertising this Bill on social media over the last week, the Minister said that people's concerns would be addressed in a substantive way that is respectful of local communities. I do not believe this adds up when I look at this draft right now. The Bill does not in any way anticipate an assessment-of-noise impact and it again pushes responsibility for noise mitigation back onto the planning authority.  The need for air connectivity in an island nation like Ireland is unavoidable. Again, nobody disputes that. What is of concern here is the ill-considered way in which this legislation has been brought forward, without any recognition of a balancing or any recognition that other considerations need to be taken account of in bringing a change like this forward. The hallmark of good legislation is a balanced approach between competing needs within our society. This legislation makes no efforts to do that. It is single-minded in its approach and offers no idea as to what a proportional approach to passenger numbers at Dublin Airport might look like. To achieve this, it undermines the climate action Act and ignores those key concerns of local communities that have been voiced to us all on many occasions. This is a reflection of the way that the legislation was prepared in close consultation with the aviation industry but with the concerns of those key environmental groups entirely excluded. Ultimately, it will be ordinary people who bear the consequences of this approach in the costs of complying with missed climate targets and in the impacts from increased noise for those living in the vicinity of the airport. Again, and it is unfortunate to say, the approach being adopted to this legislation is more and more replicated across the Government's approach to all issues to do with climate and the environment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed  I join my colleagues today in emphasising the importance of Dublin Airport as a key international hub and the crucial role it plays in driving economic growth, strengthening connectivity and supporting jobs across the country. As an island nation, our connectivity depends on aviation and seafaring. Irish residents travel more frequently and over longer distances than their European counterparts, with air travel per capita almost double the European average. For that reason, the passenger cap constrained our ability in this country to meet clear and growing demand and its removal is a welcome and necessary step. Dublin Airport is central to our economic success. In 2025, more than 36 million passengers came through the airport making it the busiest year on record. Those numbers have grown strongly in recent years reflecting Ireland's openness and international reach. That connectivity is a huge strength, with more than 190 destinations, over 2,600 weekly departures and connections to 130 cities across Europe. Dublin Airport anchors Ireland in the global economy. That is the economic reality the Minister and I live in.  As the only EU member state with English as a primary official language, this connectivity gives us a unique advantage in attracting investment and building strong commercial ties with countries and like-minded individuals abroad. The economic contribution is substantial. A 2023 study estimated that Dublin Airport supports over 116,000 jobs across the State, makes a \u20ac4.9 billion contribution in wages and contributes \u20ac9.6 billion in gross value added. That is 2.3% of the national economy, give or take. Each job created can be linked back to Dublin Airport and the role it plays.  Tourism is another major beneficiary. In 2024, over 4 million tourists visited Dublin. On Dublin's contribution to regional development, many of those tourists came through Dublin Airport but went on from the city to visit many corners of Ireland. Dublin Airport was again at the heart of that success. As visitors numbers go up, so do pressures on local services and I reiterate my support that we look at that tourism levy again as a Government. If we are to get greater numbers in through the airport coming to Dublin and beyond, the tourism levy is a key element of making sure that Dublin has a good offering and is well maintained, open and welcoming to our visitors.  This expansion also presents an opportunity to lead in the area of sustainable aviation fuel, SAF. Whether through advanced biofuels or synthetic fuels, we are well positioned to develop expertise in this area. There are very limited quantities of SAF currently available on the market and development and deployment will need to quickly ramp up, as by 2050 it is mandated that at least 70% of the fuel supplied to many EU airports will be SAF blended with conventional aviation fuel. This is a gap in an area that Dublin Airport can inhabit. As the sustainable aviation fuel policy roadmap published last year highlights, there is a real commercial opportunity for advanced biofuel production in Ireland in the medium term. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Dublin Airport (Passenger Capacity) Bill 2026: Second Stage"}]}}]},"contextDate":"2026-06-23"},{"debateRecord":{"house":{"showAs":"Select Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage","committeeCode":"select_committee_on_housing_local_government_and_heritage","houseCode":"dail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/committee\/dail\/34\/select_committee_on_housing_local_government_and_heritage","chamberType":"committee","houseNo":"34"},"chamber":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/def\/committee","showAs":"Select Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage"},"lastUpdated":"2026-06-20T02:19:02+00:00","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/select_committee_on_housing_local_government_and_heritage\/2026-06-18\/debate\/main","formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/select_committee_on_housing_local_government_and_heritage\/2026-06-18\/debate\/mul@\/main.xml"},"pdf":null},"date":"2026-06-18","counts":{"contributorCount":12,"divisionCount":4,"debateSectionCount":1,"questionCount":0,"billCount":1},"debateType":"debate","debateSections":[{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/select_committee_on_housing_local_government_and_heritage\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_2","debateType":"debate","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/58","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/58\/dail\/3","houseCode":"dail","stage":"3","isBillStage":true,"showAs":"Housing and Residential Tenancies (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2026: Committee Stage (Resumed) (D\u00e1il)"}},"showAs":"Housing and Residential Tenancies (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2026: Committee Stage (Resumed)","counts":{"speechCount":162,"speakerCount":9},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Carrigy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paula Butterly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paula-Butterly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paula-Butterly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 8"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Debate resumed on amendment No. 21:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"In page 12, between lines 26 and 27, to insert the following:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\"(i) the household or members of the household were refuse access to emergency homeless accommodation provided under Section 10 of the Housing Act 1988.\"."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"- (Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin)"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Carrigy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  We will now recommence Committee Stage of the Housing and Residential Tenancies (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2026. Before we return to amendment No. 21, which is grouped with amendments Nos. 22 and 23, the Minister wishes to make a brief comment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage (Deputy James Browne)  In terms of flagging amendments as the Bill progresses, it is also proposed to amend Part 3 of the Bill dealing with the Residential Tenancies Acts 2004 to 2026. The following provisions will be amended or included: section 9 of the Residential Tenancies Act, including to extend the period from the date of an offence for the RTB to institute a prosecution; and the fixed-payment notice provisions in Part 3, including payment procedures and provision for a detached auxiliary dwelling, developed in accordance with exempted developments as per forthcoming amendments to the planning and development regulations, not to be a tenancy for the purposes of the Residential Tenancies Act, which would be in line with the current situation in a principal private residence with the rent a room scheme. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Carrigy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  We spoke on these amendments on Tuesday. Do members have further comments? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  I ask the Minister to respond. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  I thank the Deputies for their proposed amendments. I cannot accept amendment Nos. 21 to 23, inclusive. In relation to amendment No. 21, section 20B of the Bill deals exclusively with appeals against determinations by a housing authority in relation to eligibility for social housing under section 20 of the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 and it does not relate to housing authority decisions in relation to the provision of homeless accommodation, which is governed under separate legislative arrangements.  If I recall correctly, amendment No. 22 will be withdrawn as it is identical to amendment No. 21. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  In relation to amendment No. 23, under sections 24 and 26 of the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009, the Minister has the power to make regulations setting out the criteria for determining the eligibility and need for social housing support. Legislation relating to eligibility makes specific reference to eligibility criteria, based on income, the availability of alternative accommodation, previous rent arrears in local authority housing and in relation to the determination of the most appropriate form of support and any social housing support previously provided to the household. The eligibility criteria will now include lawful and habitual residence. The proposed amendment is not necessary as it is not ineligible to criteria for social housing support, as I have set out, and therefore could not be included as a ground for appeal under section 20B. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  Is the Minister going to bring forward amendments on Report Stage or in the Seanad that deal with an appeal for somebody who is to be removed from emergency accommodation? Is he open to including in that amendment the spirit of amendment No. 21? For me, this is a fundamental point. I accept the technical issues the Minister has raised but the substantive point is more important. If somebody applies for emergency accommodation, they are in a desperate situation, probably the most desperate situation in terms of their engagement with the local authority housing services. The idea that we would have a very innovative procedure, namely, an appeals mechanism both for people applying for social housing support who are being removed from the lists but who are also being removed from emergency accommodation, but we would not extend an appeal to the denial of emergency accommodation is genuinely problematic.  Significantly, the case I referred to on Tuesday has now been resolved following interventions from politicians and legal advocates. That case should not have happened. It was a wrong decision. Is it the Minister's intention to bring forward on Report Stage an appeal mechanism that would meet the requirements of this amendment? If not, will he set out why it is not his intention to do so, because it is an important issue? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  Currently, there is no appeal. This legislation is very much focused on codification. That issue is dealt with under different legislation. There is a safety net in place if somebody is refused emergency accommodation but is at risk of rough sleeping. The issue is covered by that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  Currently, there are no appeals for anything, so the argument that there is no appeal for this does not respond to the question. Let us take the case of somebody who presents today for emergency accommodation and is refused. Let us suppose that both of us have been emailed about another Deputy's case in Wexford. That person was not given a safety net. That is not the practice. The practice is that the person presents and is either provided with emergency accommodation or not. In some cases, an applicant is not entitled to emergency accommodation. They might be an international protection applicant or a temporary protection recipient. That is fine, and they are then sent to the relevant statutory authority. However, where somebody applies for emergency accommodation and has an entitlement but the decision has been incorrect, there is currently no safety net for those people and none is proposed in the Bill. Given that the Minister is going to introduce an appeal mechanism for people in emergency accommodation whom it is proposed to remove because they may be a threat to other residents or staff, why would he not also make provision for an appeal for somebody who is not granted emergency accommodation and allow them to avail of the same safety net? I am specifically referring to people who actually have an entitlement where the decision is incorrect. Unfortunately, those decisions happen at a frequency that is concerning. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  We are bringing in a safety net to ensure that every local authority applies it for people who are refused emergency accommodation but are at risk of homelessness. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  Let me be very clear. Is the Minister saying the intention is that if Eoin \u00d3 Broin and his two children present for emergency accommodation and are refused it, it is still going to be provided on a temporary basis? This is not in the legislation and we have not seen the amendment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  I do not want to get into definition conflicts here. It will not be emergency accommodation in the sense that one is put into emergency accommodation----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  Tonight. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  -----in the main, but there will be a safety net. We will table an amendment to ensure that if somebody is refused emergency accommodation but is at risk of rough sleeping, a safety net will be provided. Accommodation will be provided, but it will be accommodation on a kind of night-to-night basis rather than emergency accommodation where someone would remain until allocated a house, sorted with a housing assistance payment or whatever the case may be. As the Deputy knows, unlike with many other applications, someone can reapply almost immediately in the sphere of housing. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  I am a bit confused. There are many occasions where people who are refused emergency accommodation rough sleep, sofa-surf or whatever. Where entitlement is clearly established, the people are sent through the relevant statutory test. What the Minister is saying is that it is his intention, on the one hand, to provide a night-to-night safety net. A large number of people in emergency accommodation in Dublin tonight will have a night-to-night arrangement. Typically, the traditional accommodation, the short-term accommodation, is full, so people can actually spend a very long time in night-to-night emergency accommodation while waiting to get into other facilities. What the Minister is saying is that they could be refused and would be given night-to-night accommodation but would not have the right to appeal the decision if they believed it was wrong. He is saying they can reapply for emergency accommodation. Why not just give them an appeal? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  If they are refused and no safety net is made available, there is the question of the time for which they will be waiting. The most important thing is that people who need accommodation are provided with it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  I apologise. Maybe I did not put the question properly. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  Even if they are refused emergency accommodation because they do not qualify, but they are at risk of rough sleeping for whatever reason, we will ensure the safety net is in place on a night-to-night basis. Of course, the local authority teams will also engage with them to assess why they are in their current position and determine whether it can be rectified.  I do not believe there is a need for an appeal. I do not believe an appeal is the best solution in this case. If people are refused social housing because they are deemed ineligible, they can turn around, walk back in and submit a new application. That is the nature of our housing. It is not the case that somebody cannot go back for a year, a month or five years, as the case may be. It is not the case that people have no recourse. They can immediately resubmit an application if they believe they have a case. I suspect this may even be quicker than going through a complicated, legal appeals process. In practical terms, it is quicker to submit a new application and say you want to be reassessed. There is no prohibition on that in housing, and rightly so. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  I am talking specifically about where people believe a decision was made in error and that they do have an entitlement. Nobody has an entitlement to emergency accommodation under law but the local authority has an obligation to provide it. The Minister is not saying in this section that people refused access to social housing support should put in another application. He is creating an appeal mechanism. That is a good move, although we will talk about the substance of that in a moment. Currently, in the Dublin local authorities, a social housing application is taking a minimum of 12 weeks, and in many cases longer. I do not know the position beyond those local authorities. Thankfully now, somebody who is refused under the Minister's proposal can appeal. I just do not understand why he would not provide an appeal for somebody refused something as fundamental as emergency accommodation. I asked local authorities about this to try to understand their perspective. They said, in fact, that one of the reasons they were concerned about an appeal for people refused emergency accommodation was that some kind of night-to-night provision would have to be made, and that it would be difficult, if they lost the appeal, to have the individuals removed. What the Minister is now actually saying is that the concern the local authorities had, that the safety net would have to be extended to the people in the circumstances in question, will be extended, but instead of just having an appeal to a separate person, somebody further up the decision-making chain possibly with more experience than the original decision-maker, they have to apply to the same person who could have made an incorrect decision. The whole point of an appeal is that it involves somebody else, somebody independent or at a higher grade. I am just not hearing a reason the Minister would not allow an appeal, other than that he is not allowing it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  I have given a very clear reason. It concerns what is in practice the best outcome for the individual, not what is best in theory. If that person is turned down, the best option is to be given night-to-night safety net accommodation, whereby he or she can immediately reapply, rather than----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  To the same person who has potentially made an erroneous decision. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  -----enter a lengthy appeal process. I am satisfied this is the best approach. We have had extensive consultations. I will continue to do so, but I am satisfied this is the correct approach. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  Let me make my final point on this. I am not suggesting there are going to be huge numbers of incorrect decisions or legally flawed decisions. The Minister is saying he is satisfied that if a grade 4 member of staff in a local authority wrongly refuses somebody emergency accommodation, it is acceptable for that same person to be asked to reassess the application as opposed to using an appeals mechanism through which the appeal would be taken by somebody of a more senior grade and, I hope, with more experience or knowledge of these very complex areas. Is the Minister okay with the same person who could have made a wrong decision being asked to reassess the application? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  It will not necessarily be the same person. As I said on the last occasion, one of the reasons this codification is comprehensive is not only to provide legal consistency for every local authority but also to ensure consistency for all the staff. We have been providing guidance and training to ensure a consistent approach to applications right across our local authorities. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  That is very bizarre. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Rory Hearne  I want to follow up on the issue of the lack of an appeals mechanism in terms of emergency accommodation. I understand the Minister and officials from the Department met the various organisations. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  The Department. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Rory Hearne  The Department. I have their concerns and the Minister's responses to them to hand. The Mercy Law Resource Centre, for example, has said there are currently widespread misapplications of the Housing Act in terms of homelessness assessments by local authorities. It has been said that a local authority must simply determine whether a household has alternative accommodation or the means to provide for its own accommodation, but despite this the Mercy Law Resource Centre has reported substantial annual increases in cases requiring legal intervention where assessments are incorrectly carried out. The result of these common issues in local authorities is an increase in hidden homelessness and rough sleeping. The centre states a robust independent appeals mechanism would empower applicants to have these types of rejections reviewed. If the reality is that independent law centres are having to take legal cases because people are not being assessed correctly, clearly this is happening. Does the Minister accept it is happening? If so, why would he not put in place a proper independent appeals mechanism, as the centres have recommended? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  It is all set out. Through this legislation, its codification, and guidance and training, I am satisfied that if what the Deputy says is the case, it will not be in the future. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Rory Hearne  How is the Minister satisfied? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  Through my analysis of the legislation we are introducing. I would not be bringing it forward if I did not believe so. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Rory Hearne  What is someone who is turned down to do? The Minister said they are going to be offered a safety net, which will involve night-to-night accommodation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  If they are at risk of rough sleeping. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Rory Hearne  If they are at risk of rough sleeping, it is going to be night-to-night accommodation. What if they are affected by domestic violence? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  We have measures, through the Department of justice, to ensure people in domestic violence situations are protected. We are expanding women's refuges as well. My Department has made substantial funding available. I want to see the new refuges delivered as quickly as possible, as well as the ones already being delivered.  Anybody is at risk of rough sleeping but there is an assessment as to whether they are entitled to social housing or to emergency accommodation. If you are at risk of rough sleeping, it applies to everybody. You could be excluded because you are at risk of domestic violence. I do not really understand the question. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Rory Hearne  As for the question, in terms of appeals and in terms of people being turned down, the Minister is introducing additional requirements for someone to be eligible for emergency accommodation. That is what the Minister is doing for the first time. Therefore----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  It is codification. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Rory Hearne  Okay. There are different assessments of that in terms of codification. The Minister said it is outlined in a circular but access to emergency accommodation is not outlined in a circular. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  Most of this is codification. For anybody facing a situation of domestic violence, it is extremely traumatic situation for those people. That is why the Department of justice, with what was called the third strategy within the Department at the time, as well as the Department of housing are working to ensure that people who are in that situation are given all of the care and supports they need. This cannot be looked at in singularity but this legislation will bring that level of consistency. I have seen in the Department of justice that there is an inconsistent approach in the various local authorities towards people experiencing domestic violence. This legislation will give consistency and guidance in that respect, as well as training to ensure those people in a domestic violence situation are treated with care, compassion, fairly and given as many supports as can be given. Our own Department and the Department of justice are working very closely together on those issues. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Rory Hearne  Does the Minister think the Mercy Law Resource Centre and the other organisations are wrong in their assessment here? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  I do not know which people or assessment the Deputy is talking about. It is not for me to assess whether they are wrong or right. My position, as I have set out on multiple occasions, is that I believe this legislation will bring consistency to our local authorities and to the housing assessments. We will have to vindicate those people's rights if they are not getting the support they should be getting in various local authorities. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Rory Hearne  If the Minster said it just codifies what exists already and nothing will change, and we currently have a situation whereby people are falling through the cracks and these organisations are having to take cases, then what will change? The whole point is the organisations have asked for an appeals process whereby people will not be falling through the cracks as much. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  Absolutely. What is already the policy is not going to change. I would be the first to admit what we have seen in various local authorities because there is a circular and the reason we are doing this legislation is because there are inconsistencies in its application across the local authorities. The legislative basis ensures there will be more consistency along with the guidance and training that will be provided. Nobody is denying there has been inconsistency out there in various circumstances. The whole purpose of this legislation is to bring an end to that inconsistency. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett  First, I will repeat that to me, the idea that the same body that makes a decision on eligibility for social housing, aspects of social housing support or emergency accommodation will also handle appeals is just ridiculous. Frankly, I do not know how the Minister can stand over it. An area where I am struggling to get my head around what the Minister is doing here - and lots of people who are legal experts are struggling to fully understand the complexities of what the Minister is doing - is the idea people who are not specialist and trained in this area at every local authority level will have to grapple with appeals in a difficult and complex area. That does not make any sense to me. When I think about the social protection appeals system, it is one of the things that works. I find it really helpful when there are difficulties with social welfare decisions. You go to the social welfare appeals process because it is a more independent process and is far better. The fact the Minister will not replicate that here is baffling to me.  I want to clarify something because I am genuinely trying to get my head around this. One thing I have raised again and again concerns decisions around medical prioritisation. Doctors put forward appeals to local authorities over often complex medical and health conditions in which they say the conditions require people to be prioritised for housing. People who do not have the same medical qualifications are making decisions on these cases. You might then appeal that to the next level. The idea that such an appeal will not go to people who are completely independent, are properly trained and have the skills but that you will have people second-guessing doctors, specialists or consultants, which often happens in the refusal of these decisions, is grossly unfair. Surely it defies any notion of fair procedure or justice. Can I just clarify whether that is the case here? You will not have the right to an independent appeal in cases like that. It is not just on the habitual residency stuff but there will not be any kind of proper independent appeal process in any area of eligibility for social housing supports. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  The appeals within the local authority will go to somebody other than the initial decision-maker. Local authorities have to deal with triaging and prioritisation. I do not believe it would be sustainable for a local authority, which is the housing agency, to manage a housing list where a medical professional, who does not have to concern him or herself with who else has a medical need in that same local authority and who will get priority, decides. What I am doing now, for example in the case of disabilities, is bringing in disability housing as part of the social housing targets to ensure the necessary housing for people with needs is now provided. This will change the current situation where people are back and forth between the local authority and the HSE on who exactly is meant to be prioritising and what exactly they are meant to have. The local authorities are now at a substantial pace going to deliver those properties and break that chicken-and-egg that was there in the past. That will make a significant inroad into the very situations the Deputy is talking about.  I share the Deputy's concerns in a sense. Whatever about the medical professional's letter and how that should be interpreted, I note the different professionals are different. I have sat in my clinics and seen people with identical medical conditions with different doctors and specialists coming in with letters of varying strengths. Decisions about people should not be made purely on the basis of their own doctor's view of the impact of their medical condition vis-\u00e0-vis their housing need. The housing specialists are those in the local authorities. I share the concern on the higher level issue the Deputy is raising, namely, the question of why should there be that battle in a local authority between people who have medical needs because of a lack of supply. We will build in disability housing targets, both for those who need independent living and those who need live-in carers so that there is not this endless back and forward. The local authorities will be delivering those at a pace not only with those who are known to the system on the HSE list as needing adapted housing or live-in-care supports but also with headroom for those individuals we may not know now but who we know are coming onto the list. There are people out there today with primary progressive multiple sclerosis or Parkinson's disease, for example, who are not on a social housing list but I guarantee they will end up in Deputy Boyd Barrett's clinic, Deputy \u00d3 Broin's clinic or my clinic in a couple of years' time. We do not know who they are but unfortunately their condition will worsen. What I have said about these targets is that there has to be headroom because those people are coming and we do not know who they are yet, but it will make a substantial difference.  Granted, we will see those houses coming in, beginning in 2027 and then at a substantial pace in 2028 and 2029 due to the need of getting them into the pipeline.  I share the Deputy's ultimate concern. I want to address that at a more substantive level, so that we do not have people in housing authorities or medical professionals trying to fight over who will get that one adapted house. I am trying to address that, and I believe it will be successful. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett  The problem is that decisions are being made by officials, and I understand the pressure that is on them. The officials are under pressure because they know they do not have enough houses to allocate and that is then influencing their judgements on medical or welfare matters, and it should not. A medical and welfare matter is a medical and welfare matter, and the people who need to be heard are specialists. You could make an argument about a first opinion or the opinion of a GP, although I would be very careful about having people who are not medical professionals, or not professionals in particular areas, second-guessing people who are because of resource issues. However, the idea that decisions are then going to be appealed on those grounds to the same body, possibly the same people, or certainly people working in the same environment and with the same pressures, when very serious issues that require specialist knowledge are at stake in terms of vulnerable and sick people, is not on. The obvious thing to do is have a body at a centralised level that looks at those things and has the requisite skills, knowledge and so on to adjudicate on the proper grounds, namely, health and welfare grounds, whether the decision on housing for a person was fair and reasonable. That is one of the reasons we need a centralised appeal system, but that is not what we are getting here. Many of the people we deal with who are affected by the habitual residence requirement are quite vulnerable on health grounds and as a result of welfare situations in terms of the well-being of children and so on. That is very problematic. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Conor Sheehan  I will go back to what Deputy Boyd Barrett said about the appeals process and the fact that it is going to be entirely within the local authority sector. Would the Minister give consideration to the provision of an oral hearing, especially in the context of facilitating a presentation by those whose case is complicated? Fourteen days is a very short timeframe. Notwithstanding that he is not going to move on making the appeals process independent, would the Minister be open to extending that? An internal appeals mechanism does not go far enough but, if the Minister is going with the internal appeal mechanism, there needs to be a reasonableness ground baked into it because, as it stands under section 20B(4), a household can only appeal on one of the specific grounds listed and there is no residual ground covering a decision that is unreasonable on its facts, if that makes sense. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  I expect that local authorities will always work with people. I do not think there is anybody in a local authority trying to prevent people from getting onto a social housing list. It is based on their original application but I do not have a concern about the appeals being done within the system. However, it always has to be remembered that housing is almost unique in the sense that if someone is turned down - and the consistency that will be brought here is that people will only be refused in a consistent manner - they can always immediately reapply. People are not prohibited from reapplying. It is not a one-shot deal and that is always very important to remember about our housing in this country. The 14-day timeframe is there to quickly facilitate people too. We do not want an elongated monthly appeal process for somebody who has been turned down. It is also in the applicant's interest that a decision is made, the appeal is heard and that decision is then made as quickly as possible because circumstances do change post application and that they would be able to reapply. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  This stuff is important. I want to pick up on two points. Going back to Deputy Hearne's example of somebody fleeing domestic or gender-based violence, here is how it works in the real world. A mother and her two children present for emergency accommodation and they are wrongfully refused. The way the safety net works currently is that in order to prove that a person is at risk of rough sleeping, somebody from one of the outreach teams or homeless services or some other qualified individual has to go out to see where the person is on site, whether they are sleeping in their car or whatever. That is certainly how it works in the Dublin local authorities. The situation that is being proposed is that when a mother and two children present for emergency accommodation and are refused, that mother now has to make the choice of either taking her children to sleep rough in order to prove they are at risk of homelessness, or to put herself and the children at risk by going back into the family home where she is experiencing domestic or gender-based violence or coercive control. These are the real decisions we are talking about. That is her choice. We know from our clinic experience and from listening to advocacy groups and experts, that in many instances the mother is going to go back into a potentially abusive scenario because the threshold for proving rough sleeping is actual rough sleeping. I wanted to emphasise that because Deputy Hearne raised a really good point.  Regarding medical priority, in the first instance the issue is not about the underprovision of medically appropriate housing. We all know that it is not provided sufficiently and more needs to be provided, but there are occasions where decisions are made to deny somebody access to a priority housing list on medical grounds despite, for example, specialised consultants' reports because the medical professional who goes into the local authority to assess those medical professionals' reports takes a different view, and some of those end up being litigated. Social welfare payments that are primarily related to medical information can be subject to an appeal - in fact, they can be subject to not only an appeal, but also an independent medical examination. I know the Minister will not move on the issue of medical priority, but I urge him to do so. Deputy Boyd Barrett raised a good point in that regard.  The Minister does not fully appreciate the risks that are being created by the way in which the safety net would operate because it is not that an individual in the council office will make a judgment call. Somebody will have to go out to verify that mother X and her two children are actually sleeping rough before that safety net comes into effect. That is on the basis of how it currently operates. The Minister may have a proposal for a different system. However, I am worried that in the case of domestic violence, people will effectively be forced to make Hobson's choice and could end up in a dangerous situation. I know the Minister will not change his mind today, but I urge him to talk to his officials and front-line homeless service providers between now and Report Stage, rethink the issue of the appeal for emergency accommodation, and understand fully how that safety net operates, if he does not understand it - I am not saying he does not - before he makes a final call on this. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment No. 22 not moved."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Conor Sheehan  I move amendment No. 23:  In page 12, between lines 26 and 27, to insert the following:  \u201c(i) the determination was otherwise unreasonable having regard to all the circumstances of the household\u2019s application.\u201d "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Carrigy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Amendment No. 24 has been ruled out of order due to a potential charge on the State. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment No. 24 not moved."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Carrigy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Amendment Nos. 25 and 28 to 31, inclusive, are related and may be taken together. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  I move amendment No. 25:  In page 12, to delete lines 38 to 40, and in page 13, to delete lines 1 and 2 and substitute the following:  \"(6) A social housing appeal shall be made to an independent appeals office located within the Housing Agency within 28 days of the notification by the housing authority to the house hold concerned of the making of a determination in respect of the application or reassessment for social housing support concerned under section 20.\".  This amendment speaks to two concerns that my colleagues and I have with the way in which the Minister has designed the appeals process. I will talk the Minister through the arguments.  First, I want to make it clear that my argument for an independent appeals mechanism outside of the local authorities is not because I do not believe that more senior officials in local authorities could not make independent decisions or reverse decisions. Of course, they could. They do that frequently. However, these appeals, especially the ones that are related to legal residency and habitual residency, will be complex. If you look at what happened within the Department of Social Protection, it took a long time to build up a competency, centrally rather than locally, on the interaction of habitual residency and legal residency and social welfare entitlements. Anybody watching in on our discussion last week on the complexity of Irish and EU law will understand that. The first value of having a single central point of appeals is for the very reason that the Minister outlined as being the need for an appeals process in the first place, namely, to ensure that there is both quality and consistency of decision-making in complex areas of law. The big fear is if every local authority designates a more senior-level official to take the appeals but a local authority might not have a critical mass of appeals, particularly in those complex legal areas, there will not be the specialism developed over time to ensure consistency of decision-making. That is particularly the case because this is an area that is subject to significant legal change and challenge. We have seen that in social welfare and one of my fears about some parts of this Bill is that it could end up leading to increased litigation in this area. It is subject to changes in EU law as well as domestic migration legislation. A single centralised appeals office will ensure better quality decisions and more consistent decisions over time. That is issue one. That is the first issue.  The second is that local authorities' - we all are in and out of them, as Deputy Browne is, as a constituency TD as well as a Minister - housing departments are under enormous pressure. Decision-making times on standard social housing applications, let alone complex ones, are taking longer than they have ever taken previously. There are housing assistance payment, HAP, applications, medical priority applications, and applications for housing adaptation grants for people with disabilities. My local authority, for example, takes at a minimum 12 weeks for a standard social housing assessment. If anything is complex, that can run into four, five or six months. We have even had some cases taking 12 months. We will now expect a system that is already dealing with increased demand and a genuine recruitment and retention crisis - I cannot speak for every local authority but in the large urban areas, when I talk to housing managers, recruitment and retention are real challenges - to take on this significant, complex and legally challenging responsibility.  The third issue is that the Housing Agency is already doing appeals. If you think of the defective concrete blocks scheme, for example, initial decisions or recommendations are made by local authorities and appeals are made to the Housing Agency. The Housing Agency has functioned in that way over time for precisely that reason. I am not dying in the ditch on the Housing Agency. Deputy Paul McAuliffe, when we discussed this privately, was wondering whether a shared service model would be better. Not that I am speaking for him, but we were shooting the breeze on it.  I know that the Minister will not support this amendment but there is a need for him to seriously reconsider the way in which he is proposing it. That is the first point. The second point is I agree with him that we do not want the appeals taking months. I do not think anybody on this side of the room was suggesting that, but I will go back to the legal complexity of this. Somebody is denied or is removed from the social housing list on the basis of, let us say, the complex interaction of the habitual residency condition, HRC, and legal residency. English might not be their first language or they might have employment obligations or healthcare obligations and they have to go and seek legal advice. Maybe they have a really good TD, Minister or Government backbencher they get the advice from, but in many cases they will not. To whom do they go? To get a clinic appointment, for example, with the Mercy law centre or with a free legal advice centre, FLAC, is time consuming. We will expect them to be able to seek advocacy support, in many cases get some specialised legal support that many of us would not have, and lodge an appeal within a 14-day period. It is too short. It should not be three months or two months. Twenty-eight days, as is provided for in this amendment, is eminently reasonable.  Here is the problem. If we do not do this right, it will lead to litigation. That is the last thing anyone wants. The Minister does not want it, we do not want it and the advocacy organisations we are talking to do not want it.  The appeals mechanism has to be centralised. It has to be independent because that also gives greater confidence in it. Social welfare appeals work really well. We are beginning to see Housing Agency appeals working.  On the 28 days, if the Minister will not accept the amendment today, I ask him to talk to his officials and others and reconsider it as a ministerial amendment at a later Stage of the passage of the Bill. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  I very much hear the Deputy's concerns but I am satisfied that those concerns will not come to pass. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Thomas Gould  Deputy \u00d3 Broin has outlined sensibly the serious concerns we have. We want this to work. What we do not want is this to turn into the appeals time being too short and not transparent.  In my experience, Cork City Council is taking five months to assess a housing application. It is taking months to assess a medical priority. It is taking months to address people who have lost their time. When you think of the bureaucracy that the Government has put in, an amount of people have lost their time because they have moved address. The one thing we know from the past five or six years is that renters are moving all over the place and then when the local authority writes out to them, they do not respond because they are not living there any more. They are taken off the system and then they have to appeal. They lose the appeal because the onus was on them. It is just bureaucracy and red tape over and over again. We should be trying to simplify it for local authority officials.  Deputy \u00d3 Broin touched on a point there. Every housing department that I have dealt with for different reasons is under tremendous pressure. What this central appeals office would do, if it was resourced properly, would be to have the people with the expertise and training be able to deal with appeals in a reasonable amount of time. The 14-day period is too short.  This is not a criticism. This is trying to make it better. If the Minister does not accept the amendments today, he should look at them again when he goes back to the Department. There is some good stuff in here that we are trying to be constructive with. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Conor Sheehan  I suppose the crux of what we are trying to get to today is, as the saying goes, \"doctors differ and patients die.\" Sometimes, housing officers differ as well. What we are trying to address with these amendments is the fact that if an appeal is decided by an officer of the same housing authority that made the original determination who was appointed by the chief executive of that authority, that does not constitute an independent review. That is important. We are dealing with complex legal questions around lawful residency, habitual residence and immigration permission and these require specialist expertise. That is why we believe that the appeals process needs to be independent.  I have another amendment in. Where the chief executive of the local authority would request the Minister to nominate an appeals officer from a ministerially maintained panel, my amendment calls for those panel members to be officers or employees of a housing authority other than the authority whose decision is under appeal. This is to address the structural independence issue.  The Bill, as the Minister has presented it, allows the same local authority to appoint its own appeals officer and that is my concern here. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Rory Hearne  I am speaking in favour of this amendment. Again, it is deeply disappointing that the Department and the Minister have refused to listen to the advice of key front-line agencies that are working in this area of homelessness and housing and whose core responsibility is to ensure that people have, to use the phrase, access to justice and access to appeal decisions. There is a real concern that leaving the responsibility with the councils is not what the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission, IHREC, set out as a standardised, independent appeals mechanism. It actually outlined in the letter it sent just last week that it is concerned that what is set out in section 20B may not be compliant with fair procedures. I want to read into the record what IHREC is saying because I am actually quite surprised by how its concerns have been dismissed in relation to this. I ask the Minister why he is dismissing the concerns of IHREC. It is the main body for human rights and equality in Ireland. It was set up to essentially ensure that Ireland follows equality law. It has also been given a number of areas of responsibility, particularly the area of anti-human trafficking. It is the independent national rapporteur on the trafficking of human beings. In its letter it specifically mentions - I raised it yesterday - the concern that the new changes will have negative impact with regard to victims of trafficking. It stated that it has:  ... long noted the serious issues faced by this category of persons in regard to the habitual residence condition. Issues for this category have been acknowledged by the State under the current guidelines concerning the habitual residence condition.  The Minister set out earlier that for someone who is turned down for emergency accommodation - for example, access to emergency accommodation - there would be a safety net in place. For victims of trafficking, however, I do not see how it will happen in practice. I will come back to this. I have not been given a satisfactory explanation by the Minister of why he is so against an independent appeals mechanism. As Minister, he wants to leave a legacy of positive impacts on housing. This is going to have very significant impacts. The Minister is saying it is just codifying law but the organisations that are working in it, we in opposition and others believe this will have significant impacts. One of the areas is ensuring that there are mechanisms by which, if there are problems or unintended consequences, there is a proper and independent appeals mechanism. The Minister said the whole point of putting this in place is because there is inconsistency across local authorities of their application of the Act. If there is this concern that there are inconsistencies, then why not set up an independent appeals mechanism through, and this is a very reasonable suggestion, the Housing Agency? It is an obvious body that could do it. The Government is providing additional resources to it. The organisations make the point, and it makes a lot of sense, that it is about building up expertise in this area as well. Over time, there will be a concentrated area of expertise to support people and local authorities in their decision-making rather than trying to do it in every single local authority where someone has been given an appeal. Staff might have been working on road tax two weeks ago and now they are making a decision on someone's access to the basic fundamental need of shelter, be they a victim of domestic abuse or someone who has been trafficked, as regards that person's entitlement of access to emergency accommodation and the fundamental need of shelter. It is too fundamental to just leave it to someone who might be allocated this as part of their multiple roles. It is not going to cost significant money to set up an independent appeals mechanism. I do not understand the rationale for not doing it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett  The points have been made. In my area now, it takes two months for a social housing application and seven to eight months for an adjudication on a HMD application or priority application. The Minister should just think about that because some of the cases we are dealing with when it comes to medical priorities or welfare priorities are really acute, severe situations, often involving children and very vulnerable people, and it is taking seven or eight months. That is because housing departments are absolutely overrun. They are completely overrun. Now, the Minister is suggesting that these overrun departments that are taking months to make decisions about housing applications or medical priority are also going to deal with all this complex stuff and that is going to be replicated in 31 different locations, which guarantees there cannot be consistency. Why would the Minister favour that against a centralised appeal mechanism, which is more independent and where skills can be built up and where there is a good model, as I mentioned, which is the Social Welfare Appeals Office? It is really good. As somebody who criticises the Government a lot of the time on many fronts, here is something that works. When people have difficult and complex cases and so on in terms of social welfare decisions, they can get a very quick response from the Social Welfare Appeals Office. It is a model that works and it could potentially provide a model for these complex issues where we are dealing with desperate and vulnerable people who need a fair decision and fair access to appeal. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  To respond to the Minister's view that he does not believe the concerns I have raised will come to pass, that is a very bold statement to make, particularly if we look at what happened with social welfare. Again, the issue is not that people are not doing their best, working hard and, with the best will in the world, being trained and updated. The issue is that in the very complicated area in which we are operating, bad decisions get made and mistakes get made. I suspect there have not been adequate conversations with the experience of the Department of social welfare and the interaction between local social welfare officers and the appeals office over the very substantial amount of time, effort and litigation it took to get to a situation where that system is now in a much better place in terms of taking decisions on these and then appealing them. If the Minister is saying to me on the public record that he does not believe that the types of scenarios I am concerned about will arise, the difficulty is that we will have problems. Again, I am making this amendment in good faith. I am open to supporting the legislation. I have made that clear from the very start. However, when the first case gets litigated, I will come in here and say that the Minister appeared before the committee and said this would not happen. Then, we will have case No. 2 and case No. 3. The difficulty is that if it is not done correctly, we are going to have problems. My strong view is that it is going to be very problematic. The Minister might think about this for a second. One of the central issues here is section 20A(7), which is the list of the habitual residency condition tests. Some of them are relatively straightforward, such as the length of continuity of a member's residence in the State, the length of purpose of any absence or the nature and pattern of a member's employment. Then, we have the member's main centre of interest, which is a very subjective category and has caused or used to cause very significant challenges in decision-making in social protection.  The next is: \u201cthe future intentions of the member concerned as they appear from all the circumstances.\u201d The way that subsection references all of those categories needs to be taken into account. If we think of the local connection test, which is a version of the habitual residency test that currently operates by way of practice, it is one of a number of things. We are now saying to people that they have to assess all of those things in the context of an application, but some of them are not clearly defined in primary legislation. The Department states that it does the guidelines, and I do not doubt that, but these are not things that we will get to see prior to the passage of the legislation.  As a result of all of this, the scope for error and poorer quality decision-making, even when people are trying their very best in their local authority public service, is really wide. How do we know that? I am not speculating because the Department of Social Protection has been through this. For the life of me, I cannot understand what is being done here. I can understand why the Minister would come to the proposition that it is for the local authorities, but I cannot understand how he would come to the committee and say that he simply does not believe the types of challenging decisions and errors I am highlighting will come to pass when we know that has been the case in the Department of Social Protection.  I would like the Minister to respond specifically on the question of 14 or 28 days. He has a legal background. He understands that it can take time to get access to a solicitor. If somebody is based in Dublin, they might be able to get to the Mercy Law Resource Centre. However, in Longford or Leitrim, there is no Community Law and Mediation centre, and there are not necessarily backbench TDs who are specialists in this. Surely a move to 28 days is a reasonable ask, even if the Minister will not accept or reconsider the independence and centralisation of the appeals officer.  It is not just IHREC. Our committee recommended a centralised and independent appeals mechanism. The committee's report on homelessness refers to a centralised appeals mechanism. We did not make the recommendations in those two reports for no good reason. We have listened to a lot of people. Therefore, it is not just that the Minister is not taking into account IHREC\u2019s recommendations. He is also not taking into account not one but two recommendations of this committee on the same issue. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  We have not dismissed anybody, whether it is the Mercy Law Resource Centre, IHREC or any other entity. All of their concerns have been considered by me, my officials and the Attorney General. The officials met again with the Mercy Law Resource Centre this week. I have given this matter careful consideration. I certainly hear what the preference of the Deputies would be. We have 31 local authorities. I am satisfied that the internal appeal is a safe route to go, and that there will be independence and consistency. Also, the involvement of the Housing Agency and the measures we will be taking to ensure there is guidance and consistency for all of those who are making these decisions means there is a difference.  To address some of the other concerns, a decision has to be made within 28 days, which will speed up a lot of these decisions. As was rightly pointed out, some local authorities are simply taking way too long. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  The Minister means 14 days, not 28. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  It is 14 and 14. An appeal has to be lodged within 14 days. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  Does the Minister not accept that that is a very tight turnaround? Surely, giving people a 28-day turnaround would be fairer. Somebody may correct me, but in the social welfare field, it is 21 days from the receipt of the decision. Twenty-eight days is not an unreasonable period. I know the Minister is not supporting the amendment. I am pressing him to reconsider this between now and Report Stage. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  I think 14 days is sufficient for somebody to get an appeal in to the local authority. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  Really. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  I do. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Carrigy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Amendments Nos. 26, 27 and 32 are related and may be discussed together. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Rory Hearne  I move amendment No. 26:  In page 13, lines 8 to 10, to delete all words from and including \u201cpreviously\u201d in line 8 down to and including line 10 and substitute \u201crelevant to the determination of eligibility and the grounds for the appeal.\u201d.  This amendment relates to the absence of the ability in the appeals mechanism to include additional information. Basically, there is no provision for a de novo appeal. The Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission has set out clearly that to have a fair appeals process there must be a provision for a de novo appeal, which would bring additional information into an appeal that was not in the original application. I ask the Minister to clarify that this is the case. If so, will he make a change to provide for the ability to include new information within the appeals process? I also ask him to address whether legal advice and assistance or translation of documents will be provided, if required. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Thomas Gould  I have a small point. It follows on from Deputy Hearne's point. At a previous meeting, I spoke about a case where a person was rejected for homeless emergency accommodation. When we went back to Cork City Council, and explained, the officials took on board the new information and helped to secure temporary emergency accommodation for that individual. That has happened.  I have had my battles with Cork City Council, but I find that when it gets all the information, in most cases, though not all, it provides access to emergency accommodation. Why not allow further information to be provided? We are dealing with very vulnerable people, some of whom are going through trauma and have ended up homeless and looking for emergency accommodation. It is quite reasonable that they do not present all the facts. When they are rejected, they contact me, other TDs, Senators, councillors or advocacy groups and they get support. It is not fair or right that additional information would not be allowed into the appeal process. The Minister needs to look at this because, at the end of the day, we are talking about very vulnerable people who we should be looking to support and not to deny. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  I was surprised when I read this section. I actually thought it was a mistake. I will be interested to hear the Minister's response. If we take the appeals tribunal of the Residential Tenancies Board, its real purpose is to bring in new or additional information that was not provided at the adjudication stage in order to have the decision reassessed. It is common practice in social welfare appeals, for example, for people to go away and provide new or additional information.  Let us think about a couple of the circumstances. One of the grounds for appeal is that somebody does not meet the income eligibility thresholds. However, there might be a change in income circumstances or there might be documentation they were not able to access at the time of the original application but can access during the appeal. This could include tax returns or self-employed tax returns. In the case of people who have lived overseas, whether Irish people or people from other countries, one of the complicated pieces of information they have to get is evidence from the country where they previously resided that they did not own property. As not all countries have a system, somebody could be refused in part because that information was not available, they could not access it or they did not even know about it, but they are then able to provide it at a later stage.  I am intrigued to understand why, as it appears in the proposed section 20B(8), the provision is restricted to any information previously provided. For reasons of natural justice and based on the widespread practice in housing and social welfare appeals, as well as in the RTB, I ask the Minister to give an undertaking to amend this provision on Report Stage, if he is not willing to support Deputy Hearne's amendment or our amendment, which does something similar. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett  In terms of the legal and habitual residency extra requirements, this is a complex process. A lot of documents are often required, people are not sure what documents are needed and so on. People who should be eligible could be denied because they were not quite sure, did not have access to the documents or did not put in the right documents, although they had them. The idea that new information cannot be brought forward at the appeals stage when the substantial issue of people's eligibility is being considered just does not make any sense. It is not just in that area but more generally. As I am sure the Minister knows, people who come into us often struggle with bureaucracy, documents and understanding the system. They can leave out things that might be relevant or they might not fully understand what might be relevant for the application they are making. They are now to be prohibited from bringing forward new information, including medical information, when often they cannot get it because of delays.  Often there are even just delays if they are making an application. There are delays getting a letter because someone might not see their consultant for two or three months. Therefore, they did not have the consultant's letter but got it subsequently, and now they cannot bring that in because it is new. It is unfair. If, for example, it was on medical priority they were denied that, when they appeal it, they subsequently have a letter from a consultant, which is an absolute slam-dunk that this person should be given priority, but that will be ruled out because it is new information. It is about reasons to say \"No\" rather than reasons to give a fair adjudication of the application. I do not see how it can possibly be fair. As has been said, in the social welfare appeals system that we noted works pretty well, you can bring new information forward. Why would it be different with regard to social housing? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  On support of an appeal, the applicant may, to support the ground of the appeal, submit any information previously provided to the local authority concerned for the purpose of making the determination on the subject of the appeal. It is not feasible or appropriate for an applicant to submit any new information at appeal stage due to the fact that the authority would, in effect, be making a fresh determination in the event of new information being submitted. This applies to social housing applicants and not to emergency accommodation, so there is an important distinction. The documentation required to support an application is to be set out in the checklist for applicants contained within the prescribed social housing application form. As part of the assessment process, a range of documentation is requested, including various things like proof of identity and current address. Applicants are also required to provide evidence relating to income and any previous rent arrears and some other information. Where an application is incomplete or where additional documentation is required, the local authority will engage directly with the household to request the necessary information. A final decision on the qualification of the household will not be made until the local authority is satisfied that sufficient supporting documentation has been provided to enable a fully informed assessment. Notwithstanding the documentation outlined in the application form, there may be circumstances where a particular document cannot be provided. In such cases a local authority may, at its discretion, accept alternative documentation to satisfy itself as to the relevant information required. Overall, local authorities will work with the applicants at the application stage to ensure they are clear about the requirements, and that all relevant and required information is available to them. The purpose of appeal is to ensure an incorrect decision taken by a local authority is remedied, and that decision is taken on the information available to local authorities in the first instance. Local authorities want people to succeed and will help them to ensure the appropriate documentation is provided if available. It is also set out that they have powers in their discretion to accept substitute documentation. An appeal should be on a decision. An appeal where you can submit additional new information that was not provided when there will have been opportunity to do so is not an appeal of a decision. It is an appeal de novo . It is effectively a new decision. It is always open to an applicant to withdraw any appeal and to put in a new application in the case of housing. Nobody is precluded from doing so. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Rory Hearne  It is disappointing that the Minister is not willing to make the change on that. He mentioned that this does not apply to emergency accommodation. Given that he is refusing to take other suggestions on an independent appeals mechanism, and given that he is going to do it through the local authorities, why would he not apply an appeals mechanism to emergency accommodation similar to the one he is setting out for this? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  I have answered that question already----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Rory Hearne  I do not feel it was sufficient. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  -----about there not being an appeals mechanism for a refusal to grant emergency accommodation. I have answered it extensively today. The Deputy might not like the answer, but I have answered it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Rory Hearne  It is not actually an answer. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  I am genuinely taken aback. What other appeals body in the provision of a public service does not allow new information? I mentioned three that invite new information, which are social welfare appeals, the Residential Tenancies Board and I cannot remember the third. It will come back to me but there are three we deal with regularly. The issue is whether the decision was legally correct or not. The purpose of the appeal is to determine whether the original decision was legally correct. If the decision was not legally correct and the appellant has new material information to demonstrate that, not only is it deeply unfair but it would be hard to see how that would stand up in court in a judicial review of the decision. The Minister will correct me if there is a list of public service provision where the appeals are of the structure the Minister has outlined. He should share that with us because that is something I would be interested in. The issue here is that anything materially relevant and that demonstrates the original decision may not have been in accordance with the law has to be admissible. I have not heard the Minister explain why. Why would he exclude something of that nature?  When the social welfare appeals officers make an appeal, they get the full file from social welfare. It is sent over. We all know that. The appellant can then put in whatever additional information they require. Sometimes that is new information or the re-presentation of existing information. The appeals officer has to read all of that, and they are asking themselves a different question. They are asking themselves if that decision was made in accordance with the law. They still have to read the documentation. It is something I have never come across. The Minister will correct us if we are wrong and this is a widespread practice in public services. It is almost like he is saying that if somebody has something materially relevant that demonstrates the original decision was legally inappropriate, they are being denied from submitting that.  At the same time the Minister says the local authority will have discretion. I do not see that discretion in the legislation. Maybe he will point out to me when it is there. Why would he just not make provision for it? He is saying local authorities can do it if they want, but they do not have to. It undermines the argument for why he is not having it there in the first place. If the Minister is saying that they can accept it under certain circumstances, well that meets the Minister's de novo test that it is a new decision and not an assessment of the existing one. It is kind of contradictory. Are there other examples where appeals processes work like this? Is the discretion in the legislation or will that just be communicated to the local authority? What will be the criteria for that discretion? What kinds of documents?  I go back to the core issues. Where, because of what I think are deficiencies in the legislation, there is going to be a reliance on local authority officials to make quite subjective decisions about centre of interest or future intentions, then the scope for error is greater. If a decision is illegal, people need to be given every opportunity to demonstrate it is not lawfully correct. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Thomas Gould  I find it hard to wrap my head around why a person could not bring additional relevant information in as part of an appeals process. I do not get that. I think it is disingenuous of the Minister to say that local authority housing officials will go through the application. Does he know how overstretched and overworked housing departments are in local authorities? To be honest, I think this reflects badly on the Minister. He will give additional work to local authorities that are strapped. He has heard other members here outline how long it is taking to make decisions. It is taking months, not weeks, to make decisions. Now, we will put the appeal procedures on those. Do they have the speciality for it? What I see in local authorities is officials doing multiple jobs and they are then expected to do this. It is at their discretion.  What good is that to anyone? It is either the rules or it is not the rules. Discretion is a cop-out from the Minister if it is not in the document and everyone has equal access. At the core of this is fairness and transparency, and that is not fair. A local authority in Cork can make one decision and Donegal County Council can make a separate decision not to consider it. How is that fair? The Minister is wrong. This is a mistake and he is digging a hole. The more he is trying to stand over this, the more he is digging a hole. Legislation is complex. I know he is trying to put an awful lot into this legislation. I am not here to criticise him but I think this is a mistake. I ask him and his officials, if they are not going to take the amendments on board today to go back and look at it because someone is going to challenge this in the courts. At the end of the day, people have rights. This is denying people's right to a fair appeals procedure. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  The Attorney General is satisfied that the appeals mechanism is in accordance with the law. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  I am sorry but that is not the question. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  That is exactly the question that has been put to me, along with the position that we should not trust local authority officials to have any discretion in relation to it. If we have a complete black and white situation where no discretion is ever allowed, why would we even use officials? We would simply have an algorithm to do it. There always has to be an element of discretion. I trust local authority officials in that respect. I am satisfied that, first, this is legally robust and, second, it is the appropriate way to deal with appeals. The appeal is on the decision that is made. I accept there are other situations around the country, most often where there is a jurisdictional change and we are going to a higher jurisdiction, but this is an internal appeal and I am satisfied that it is in accordance with the Attorney General's view that it is legally robust. I also believe that policy-wise, it is the correct way to do it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  My first question was whether the Minister is aware of any other public service or Department where an appeals mechanism excludes in the ordinary course of events new materially relevant information. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  I am not here to explain, defend, justify or support any other appeal mechanism. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  The Minister is here to explain, defend and justify this proposal. This is not the norm. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  I am satisfied. I have given my answer that this is legally robust and I am satisfied with the process. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  The Minister has not answered my question. It is the norm in social welfare appeals and in appeals to the Residential Tenancies Board tribunal not only to allow new information but to actively invite it and encourage it. In fact, the way in which the RTB tribunals are set up is that they want something new and additional because they do not want the tribunal just to be reassessing the original decision. It is if a person has something new to bring to bear. In two very relevant cases, the norm is to allow new information. It is not unreasonable for me to ask. I accept that the Attorney General has given the Minister his advice. That is fine, but why deviate from what I believe is the norm in public service appeals in allowing new information? Why would the Minister do that when in all other cases, as we are outlining, people are allowed to submit materially relevant new information? I know he wants to do it. I know the Attorney General said he cannot do it. I am not disputing that, but why would he do it? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Carrigy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  On that basis, could we move this on? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  This is fundamental. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Carrigy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I am not----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  We are being asked to support legislation. I have been ten years in this House and we have dealt with lots of legislation that was well-intended and that had significant errors or problems. We were ignored when we raised them and they ended up being litigated in the courts. I refer to planning legislation. This is the first time we are dealing with incredibly complex habitual residency and legal residency legislation and from my 15 years experience dealing with social welfare, that is what happens there too. I want to stress that this should not be a controversial argument in terms of the legislation because from our party's point of view, we have said we do not have a problem with the principle behind the legislation but, increasingly, as I am going through the sections and we are highlighting legitimate concerns, there is no indication from the Minister that he is willing to move on any of them or even explain why this course of action is being taken. He has told us he is taking it but he has not said why this and not what we have proposed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  I have answered the Deputy. What we also have here is a situation, as has been set out, whereby local authority officials will work with the applicant to try to help them to ensure they have sufficient information. That is not the case in most other situations in the case of appeals, be it the Valuation Tribunal, now Tailte \u00c9ireann, or the RTB. What we have here is proactive local authorities using this legislation and the guidance and training that will be given to them as well. It has to come to an end at some point. Under this mechanism where we are kind of at the beginning part, we are helping and holding the hand of the applicants to help them in every shape and form to get their documentation in place so that they can make that decision. Then we are at a situation where if a person disagrees with a decision of the housing officer the appeal is on that particular information.  Every application and every appeal situation is very different. I am someone who has practised as a barrister for a long time and dealt with many different appeal bodies, whether it was the Employment Appeals Tribunal, the Valuation Tribunal or the RTB and all the rest of them, and they all have different processes. The emphasis might be different at different points both in the decision-making process and in the appeals process as well. I am satisfied that this process is the correct one, bearing in mind everything that is taken into consideration and how an application is made to a local authority. A very important point that I have made on several occasions is that in most other cases, people do not have an opportunity to go back in straight away and reapply but they do in respect of housing. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  I have one final question. Could the Minister name one public service appeals mechanism that does not allow----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  I am not getting into a pub quiz here. I am dealing with the legislation in front of me. That is what I am doing here. I have set out my reasons carefully. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  Could the Minister at least let me ask the question? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  He has asked it on multiple occasions. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  Not this one. Is the Minister aware of a single public service appeals mechanism----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  Deputy \u00d3 Broin has asked that question already. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  -----that statutorily denies new material information? \"Yes\" or \"No\"? I submit that he does not. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  If there is an issue with this, I am sure someone will take a legal action against it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  If the answer was \u201cYes\u201d, the Minister would name the process. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  It is an irrelevancy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  It is not. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  I am dealing with the legislation in front of me. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  There is a reason this is the norm. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Carrigy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I want to try to move on. Deputy Boyd Barrett wants to come in again. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  I am satisfied in the circumstances of a housing application that this is robust. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  So the Minister does not know of any other process. Does he know or does he not know of any public sector appeals process? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  Whether I know or not is an irrelevancy. I am not getting into a pub quiz here with the Deputy. I am sorry but we have to take this seriously. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  Okay, but this is important. It is not about a pub quiz. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  It is important. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Carrigy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Please. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  It is not a pub quiz. I will press this. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  The purpose is to drill down into the legislation in front of us; it is not a type of cross-examination to see if the Deputy can find some technical loophole or something. The Attorney General says it is robust. As far as I am concerned, it is robust. The Department of housing considers it robust both in terms of legality and policy in all of the circumstances of a housing application. I have given my answer. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  Our job is to scrutinise this legislation in detail. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  Not other appeals mechanisms. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  We take this very seriously. The reason the question is relevant is if there is a norm in other public service appeals processes, there is a reason for it. If nobody currently deviates from the norm, and this is the first time it is happening, it is a pertinent question on the legislative process in front of us to ask why the Minister is deviating from the norm. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  There is no norm. We live in a common law system overseen by a Constitution where the Oireachtas has powers to legislate. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  The Minister is evading the question. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  Every system where somebody has rights is dealt with separately in a different manner, based on the circumstances of the facts dealing with the situation where somebody is applying for something. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  That is avoiding the question and the Minister knows it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  It is not. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Carrigy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  We will try to move on. We are going to get bogged down. I will let Deputy Boyd Barrett in and then I will put the question. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett  The Minister is clearly not for turning. How can it be fair? That is a word that has not come into his explanation. Surely he wants the legislation to be fair to the applicant. How is it fair if somebody makes an appeal on a decision for them not to be able to bring new information forward that establishes they were eligible? How is it fair to deny them that right when they are appealing a decision, if it is relevant? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  Because at the point when an application is being made, it is not something that is at a distance.  When someone makes a housing application, they are coming in to their local authority and meeting with their housing officer, and it is up to the local authority and the housing officer at that point to ensure every effort is made to make sure the applicant has all the relevant information in before the first decision. That is a crucial difference. With most other decision-making situations where you end up with an appeal, you do not have that mechanism at the start where the local authority wants the person to qualify and will help them. The decision would only be made in the first instance when the authority is satisfied that all the documentation is there. Where there is a missing piece of documentation, the officials can use their own discretion on whether a substitute document can be used to prove something. When all the documentation is prepared and ready the authority then makes the decision. That is why there is an appeal mechanism based on the original decision and not new information, which is not always necessarily the right way to do it because when you have an appeal based on information not available to the decision-maker to begin with, you are not making that decision based on the original decision-making. What you are actually opening up with a de novo appeal in most cases is that it allows the appellant to make a different decision. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett  It is not that I do not have any sympathy for people making decisions but surely our primary obligation here is to the applicant. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  That is why every effort is made to help the applicant----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett  But the Minister is saying we are allowing the person to make a de novo appeal. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  If we were to go down the Deputy's route----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett  Why would we not help them? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  We are. That is what this legislation does. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Carrigy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I am going to try to move this thing on, if I can please. I am going to put the question. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Thomas Gould  I just want to clarify something. The Minister has just made the point we are going to help them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Carrigy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Sorry, we have gone through it in fair detail on both sides. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Thomas Gould  The Minister made the statement a second ago that we are going to help them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Carrigy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I am going to move on. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Thomas Gould  Right now in local authorities what the Minister is saying is happening is not happening. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Carrigy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Deputy Gould. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Thomas Gould  If I go in with a housing application form----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  That is why we are bringing the legislation in - to ensure consistency. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Thomas Gould  Is the Government then providing the staffing resources in the 31 local authorities to do that? This is really time-consuming stuff. Are we dealing with people who do not have English as their first language, who have literacy issues or who are vulnerable? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Carrigy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I am going to move this on. We have given it a fair hearing. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  I move amendment No. 27:  In page 13, line 8, after \u201cprovided\u201d to insert \u201cor new information relevant to the application or reassessment\u201d. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Rory Hearne  I move amendment No. 28:  In page 13, to delete lines 11 to 21. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Conor Sheehan  I move amendment No. 29:  In page 13, to delete lines 11 to 21 and substitute the following:  \u201c(9) On receipt by a housing authority of a social housing appeal made in accordance with this section, the chief executive of the authority shall request the Minister to nominate a person to decide the appeal (in this section referred to as an \u2018appeals officer\u2019).  (10) The Minister shall, for the purposes of subsection (9), establish and maintain a panel of persons eligible for nomination as appeals officers, being persons\u2014  (a) who are officers or employees of a housing authority other than the housing authority whose determination is the subject of the social housing appeal concerned, and  (b) who, in the opinion of the Minister, have sufficient knowledge and experience of housing law and social housing assessment to discharge the functions of an appeals officer.  (11) The Minister shall nominate a person from the panel referred to in subsection (10) to act as appeals officer in respect of a social housing appeal within 7 days of receiving a request under subsection (9).  (12) A housing authority shall provide such administrative support to an appeals officer nominated under subsection (10A) as the appeals officer may reasonably require for the purposes of deciding a social housing appeal.\u201d. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  I move amendment No. 30:  In page 13, line 11, to delete \u201ca housing authority\u201d and substitute \u201cthe appeals office\u201d. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  I move amendment No. 31:  In page 13, to delete lines 16 to 21 and substitute the following:  \u201c(10) An appeals officer shall be a competent person appointed by the Housing Agency to undertake appeals with an appropriate knowledge of both housing and immigration law, in order to ensure quality and consistency of decisions made over time.\u201d. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Rory Hearne  I move amendment No. 32:  In page 13, to delete lines 35 and 36. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Gary Gannon  I move amendment No. 33:  In page 14, between lines 9 and 10, to insert the following:   \u201cSeverance of tenancy   20C. (1) Where a housing authority becomes aware that a court has issued a barring order, protection order or safety order (within the meaning of the Domestic Violence Act 2018) against a joint tenant of a dwelling provided under social housing support, the housing authority shall have the power to sever the joint tenancy in accordance with this section.  (2) For the purposes of this section, the existence of a barring order, protection order or safety order issued under the Domestic Violence Act 2018 shall constitute sufficient evidence that the behaviour of the joint tenant against whom the order is made amounts to anti-social behaviour for the purposes of terminating that tenant\u2019s interest in the tenancy.  (3) Where a housing authority exercises its powers under subsection (1), it shall\u2014  (a) terminate the tenancy rights of the joint tenant against whom the court order referred to in subsection (1) is made,  (b) vest the tenancy solely in the remaining tenant or tenants,  (c) ensure that the remaining tenant\u2019s security of tenure, as provided under the Housing Acts 1966 to 2026, is fully preserved and unaffected by the severance, and  (e) notify both parties in writing of the decision and the grounds therefor.  (5) The joint tenant whose tenancy rights are terminated under this section may appeal that termination to the chief executive of the housing authority concerned within 14 days of notification under subsection (3)(e), on the sole ground that\u2014  (a) the court order referred to in subsection (1) has been discharged or has expired, or  (b) the housing authority erred in identifying the correct joint tenant against whom the order was made.  (6) An appeal under subsection (5) shall be decided in accordance with the procedures set out in section 20B subsections (9) to (17), applied with any necessary modifications.  (7) Nothing in this section shall prevent a housing authority from taking action under this section where a court order referred to in subsection (1) was issued before the commencement of this section, provided the order remains in force at the time of the action.  (8) The Minister may prescribe procedures and forms for the purposes of this section.  (9) In this section\u2014  \u2018barring order\u2019, \u2018protection order\u2019 and \u2018safety order\u2019 have the meanings given to them under the Domestic Violence Act 2018;  \u2018joint tenant\u2019 means a person who holds a tenancy of a dwelling jointly with one or more other persons under a social housing support arrangement with a housing authority.\u201d.\u201d.  The amendment attempts to address an issue that happens more often than anyone should feel comfortable about. This is where a person, almost always a woman, has gone through the harrowing experience of experiencing domestic violence in the home and having gone to the courts to obtain a court order and secured that court order, had the perpetrator\u2019s name remain on the tenancy. The amendment proposes to create a mechanism for local authorities to sever a joint social housing tenancy where a court has issued a barring, protection or safety order against one of the joint tenants under the Domestic Violence Act. The effect is that the local authority may remove tenancy rights of the perpetrator while preserving the tenancy rights of the victim and any remaining household members.  At present, a victim of domestic violence may obtain a court order protecting them from an abusive partner but that abusive partner can still retain a legal interest in the tenancy. That creates a situation where a victim has a legal protection from abuses but continues to face housing insecurity and uncertainty. In practice, victims of domestic violence are too often forced to leave their homes and forced to enter emergency accommodation or seek refuge spaces because there is no clear housing mechanism to regularise the tenancy after a court has intervened. This amendment attempts to address that.  It is triggered only where a court has already issued a barring order, protection order or safety order under the Domestic Violence Act. The local authority is not asked to determine whether domestic violence has occurred. The court has already made that determination and issued an order. The amendment simply allows housing laws to respond to that reality. This is not equating antisocial behaviour with domestic violence at all; Rather, antisocial behaviour is recognised legal grounds on which local authorities can already intervene in a tenancy. The amendment uses that existing housing law mechanism to protect victims and preserve their housing security.  This is an issue that may have come up in all our offices and inevitably creates a really difficult situation. I hope to use this amendment to this legislation to address this. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Rory Hearne  I support this. It is something that has come to us. It is really important that the State uses its role as a social housing landlord to ensure that victims of domestic violence are safe and that it uses every lever available to do that. This is one way by which it can do so. It relates back to the issues we have been discussing about access to social housing and domestic violence. We know domestic violence is a significant factor in homelessness. This would be a key preventative measure in that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paula Butterly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paula-Butterly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paula-Butterly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paula Butterly  I wholeheartedly support the amendment and particularly the spirit in which it is written. Too often we have victims and their families fleeing from their homes to avoid a perpetrator and not confront them. The duty of the State is to use all the powers it has, and can have, to avoid this situation. The trauma on the victims and families is beyond words. The justice committee has heard account after account of what families have to go through when faced with these situations.  I fully agree with the spirit of the amendment. My only concern is about where the protection and safety orders come into play. Where a protection order is granted by the court, that would certainly be a measure to protect the families. The overriding obligation we have is to ensure we protect the victims and the families because they are also victims. We sometimes tend to forget that.  There is also another side to this. As a result of not addressing this issue properly in the past, we have had to find refuge for these victims. That itself has been a cost. There is never enough spaces whether in counties Louth, Meath or Cavan. Too often we hear stories about where a family has had to flee their home as a result of this violence. We have also heard of families who have not fled because of financial constraints and where subsequently the violence has resulted in homicide. We have to take that into account. This measure is something which the Minister should consider. I thank the Deputies for bringing it forward. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  I strongly support the amendment and echo Deputy Butterly\u2019s comments. This is an issue we all deal with on a regular basis.  The current practice, certainly in my own local authority, is to see such matters as civil matters between the tenants and to say we have no role or responsibility in this.  There is an existing provision in social housing legislation, which I only came across recently in dealing with a very complex case on this, where the local actually does have the power to rescind a tenancy in certain circumstances but it is legally very ambiguous. In fact, when I queried my own local authority about it, I learned that it has never used it even though it has been there for quite some time. Therefore, I do think it is an issue that needs to be addressed.  We have had cases where, for example, exactly the situation outlined by Deputies Gannon and Butterly, has led to three- or four-bedroom homes being left with a proven abuser. A family had to move into refuge accommodation and then private rental accommodation. They maintain their tenancy because they do not want to lose that bit of leverage that they have. Therefore, they do not access social housing supports because they have a tenancy and are not eligible for HAP. In one particular case, that went on for ten years. What the individual in question did was that they destroyed the property over that ten-year period and only then did the local authority seek to intervene to try to negotiate a settlement. That family not only had the trauma of the domestic violence and the loss of a secure family home, they also had ten years of enormous uncertainty.  If the Minister is not willing to support this amendment at this Stage, then I urge him to talk to the officials. If there is another opportunity to bring something back, then do but this is a really good amendment and we are happy to throw our weight behind it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett  I support Deputy Gannon's amendment. I have also had cases like that. I think the Minister understands. He is nodding. It is a very serious issue that has to be addressed. I hope the Minister will take the amendment with the seriousness it deserves. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  I share the Deputies' concerns and think it is something that does have to be addressed. I do not think it can be addressed through this amendment but it is certainly something that needs to be done. The Government, as a whole, including myself, are very much committed to addressing domestic violence and these very difficult situations, both domestic violence and sexual and gender-based violence. That is reflected in the third national strategy for zero tolerance, and I was part of that when I was in the Department of justice. Working across Departments is essential. Our own child and family homeless action plan is being finalised.  In relation to this Bill, an amendment that proposes the termination of a joint tenant's interest in a social housing tenancy where a barring, safety or protection order has been issued, the introduction of a mandatory legal mechanism to sever tenancy rights based on the existence of specific court orders, whose protections may vary significantly, while the intention behind it is genuinely understandable, this does, however, raise complex legal issues. These legal issues are not so much policy issues as legal issues and include constitutional issues. The interaction between housing law and family law, particularly the effect of court orders that may be temporary or conditional and do not order removal from the home as in the case of a protection order. The implications for due process and property and tenancy rights of all individuals means there is a need for ensuring that any intervention is proportionate, legally robust and consistently applied. As I say, they are not Department of housing policies. They are legal requirements under the Constitution.  I want to be clear that a detailed examination of these issues is already under way as part of a broader Government commitment under the third national strategy, which commits to reviewing existing housing guidance to ensure victims can remain in or return to the home where safe, and considering where legislation change is appropriate, including in the context of joint tenancies.  My Department is working closely with the Department of justice, Cuan and the Courts Service to further these commitments, and I take them very seriously. This work has identified that the dissolution of joint tenancies in domestic violence cases is particularly complex require the careful balancing of protections and legal rights. Introducing the proposed measure at this Stage, without the benefit of a completed analysis, and subsequent legislative framework, may risk unintended consequences and unnecessary legal challenges. The appropriate course is to allow the ongoing review and policy development proceed and conclude, ensuring that any reforms introduced are legally sound and operationally workable.  For these reasons, I cannot accept the amendment. I accept the import of the amendment. I think we need to get to that position as quickly as possible. It is just that this amendment is not the vehicle to do so. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Gary Gannon  I am not sure why the amendment is not. This amendment operates within a framework that already exists. In terms of constitutional challenges, this amendment is very clearly linked to a law that exists in terms of the Domestic Violence Act 2018. It is also linked to policy. We know that people can be removed from their homes for anti-social behaviour. For example, if a man walked out of his home and abused his next door neighbours, he called them names, he threw things at them or he was violent towards them, that man could be removed from local authority housing because of those acts. However, if he walked into his home and did the exact same things to his wife or partner, there is no means by which he can be removed from his home.  I fully understand that there are means by which there will be potential consequences but the amendment seeks to add to a law and a framework that already exists. We are simply asking that the Domestic Violence Act 2018 is applied to social housing legislation, as it exists. Therefore, I am not sure where the unintended legal consequences exist other than to link into frameworks that already exist. I am interested to hear the Minister further explain why the amendment is not appropriate and what he suggests for Report Stage. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  The termination of a tenancy and the person's property rights is not considered by the courts in making those orders. Therefore, under the Constitution, there has not been the opportunities for due process and for individuals to be heard in respect of that. There is no actual decision in those court orders in relation to those legal rights.  We are working with the Courts Service, the Department of justice and Cuan. We want the approach to be victim centred. We want to get to the point that the Deputies want, which is that somebody who is committing domestic violence is the person leaving the home, not the victim. However, this amendment would not be legally robust and I do not think that would help those victims either. There is an active policy, within Government, with the Department of justice to get to a point where the victim does not have to leave the home. I believe that the amendment is not legally robust. We agree with the intent but the amendment would be easily challenged. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paula Butterly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paula-Butterly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paula-Butterly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paula Butterly  I accept some of what the Minister has said about the robustness of the amendment as it stands. However, would he commit to reviewing this and working with the members of the committee and Deputy Gannon? I refer in particular to the barring order because that in itself removes the perpetrator from the home within the order. I think there is scope and accept the fact that the Minister has said that this matter must be examined and researched in detail but I think this is the opportunity to deal with the matter. I ask the Minister to consider this as we move forward. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  Again, even with a barring order, the termination of a tenancy is not considered by the court at that time. This is being reviewed. It is being reviewed with the Department of justice which has the lead in terms of domestic violence. We will ensure that my Department, which is working with the Department of justice, does provide legally robust legislation and provides for a situation that also has the minimal impact on the victims, and that they do not end up with numerous court cases or challenges. Everybody wants to get to the same point but this amendment is not legally robust. It will be challenged and it is difficult to see how any challenge would not succeed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Gary Gannon  To be clear, I am not asking the courts, when enacting a barring order, to make a determination about property rights because property rights would not come into this because we are talking about local authorities in this instance, nor am I asking them to make a determination about tenancy rights. I am not asking the courts to apply any of those things here. What we are asking that local authorities, when they are potentially removing a tenancy under the framework and powers they already have, are able to include the Domestic Violence Act 2018 in their determination.  That is what we are asking here. It is not about the courts determining property or tenancy rights. It is about enabling local authorities to be able to give consideration to a determination of the court on the Domestic Violence Act 2018. That is something I am sure the local authority I deal with would feel very empowered by. It is important to make the point that this is not about the court's determination of property or tenancy rights but about a council's determination of how best it can remove a perpetrator from a home with powers it does not have at present. This amendment would give councils that power. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Browne  That is the very point. This amendment does not give the courts the power to make that decision. What the Deputy is asking the local authority to do is to act on a court decision where it has not considered the tenancy and property rights of the individual. That is the issue here. For the local authority to be able to rely on that court decision, any legislative change would require the courts to consider the tenancy rights and property rights of an individual. The local authority's decision would then be based on an appropriate decision from a court. The fact the court would not have considered it is the very reason this amendment would not be legally robust. As I have said, everybody wants to get to the same point. This is actively being worked on with the Department of justice and our law will ensure the Department of housing's legislation is in line with the Department of justice but the latter is the lead here and it is doing some very strong work in this area. It is working with Cuan, which was only established in the past few years. We will get there but we need to get there in a way that does not inadvertently create a situation where we have legislation that is very clearly not legally robust. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Carrigy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank the Minister. We have reached the end of the time allotted to this meeting. We will resume consideration of the Bill next week. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Progress reported; Committee to sit again."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The select committee adjourned at 3.02 p.m. until 6 p.m. on Tuesday, 23 June 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Housing and Residential Tenancies (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2026: Committee Stage (Resumed)"}]}}]},"contextDate":"2026-06-18"},{"debateRecord":{"house":{"showAs":"COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS","committeeCode":"committee_of_public_accounts","houseCode":"dail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/committee\/dail\/34\/committee_of_public_accounts","chamberType":"committee","houseNo":"34"},"chamber":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/def\/committee","showAs":"COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS"},"lastUpdated":"2026-06-21T02:18:57+00:00","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/committee_of_public_accounts\/2026-06-18\/debate\/main","formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/committee_of_public_accounts\/2026-06-18\/debate\/mul@\/main.xml"},"pdf":null},"date":"2026-06-18","counts":{"contributorCount":11,"divisionCount":0,"debateSectionCount":4,"questionCount":0,"billCount":0},"debateType":"debate","debateSections":[{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/committee_of_public_accounts\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_2","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Business of Committee","counts":{"speechCount":77,"speakerCount":9},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  You are all very welcome to today's meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts. We have received no apologies.  Before we proceed, I have a few housekeeping matters to go through. Members are reminded of the provisions of Standing Order 226 that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government, or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I also remind members of the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. Members of the committee attending remotely should do so from within the precincts of Leinster House.  The agenda for today is to discuss accounts and statements, correspondence and upcoming meetings. We will then suspend the meeting and engage with officials from the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science at approximately 10.30 a.m.  Four sets of accounts and financial statements laid between the 8 and 12 June 2026 are due to be considered today. We are joined by the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, who is a permanent witness to the committee. I ask him to address these before I open the floor to members. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy  First, we have the financial statements of Home Building Finance Ireland for 2025. They received a clear audit opinion. Second are the financial statements of Home Building Finance Ireland Lending designated activity company, which is a subsidiary of Home Building Finance Ireland. Again, these are for 2025 and received a clear audit opinion.  Third are the accounts of the Hepatitis C and HIV Compensation Tribunal special account for 2025. They received a clear audit opinion. Fourth is a related account, the financial statements of the Hepatitis C and HIV Compensation Tribunals reparation fund for 2025. They received a clear audit opinion. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Do members have comments on any of those? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  On Home Building Finance Ireland, the figures for both are exactly the same. Has Mr. McCarthy just repeated the figure or why is it the same amount? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  It is the same amount. The subsidiary, for legal reasons, does most of the transactions, so when they are consolidated with the group financial statements, all of the activity is happening in the subsidiary, or through the subsidiary. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  What does Home Building Finance Ireland do? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy  It, basically, is a source of lending to developers who may not be able to raise funds in the market but who are able to satisfy Home Building Finance Ireland. The amount that would be lent would be multiples of the turnover figure there. I have in my mind a figure of the order of \u20ac300 million, but I can check and see if I can get a figure for the Deputy on that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  I would be interested in having the organisation before the committee at some stage, just to delve into what actually happens within it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  That is Home Building Finance Ireland. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  Yes. Is that possible? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  After the summer recess, I would like to do a thematic series of meetings on housing, the financing of housing, etc. That could certainly be one of those engagements. Do any other members wish to comment? No. Do members agree to note the listing of accounts and financial statements? Agreed.  There are a number of B items of correspondence to consider today. These have been received by Departments and public bodies. We will start with the four deferred items from last week's meeting.  No. R2026\/0280, dated 26 May 2026, is correspondence received from the chief executive officer of the National Oil Reserves Agency in response to the committee's request for further information following the meeting on 7 May 2026. Do members wish to make a comment on that? No. Is it agreed to note and publish it? Agreed.  No. R2026\/0287, dated 2 June 2026, is correspondence received from the chief officer of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board, NPHDB, in response to the committee's request for further information following the meeting on 30 April 2026. Deputy Farrelly has flagged this item for discussion. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  I know this project is proceeding at a snail's pace but elements of it can move quite quickly. Given that this correspondence is dated 2 June, it is probably outdated in terms of its relevance at this point. Can we go back to the board to seek an update specifically regarding the review of the BAM report it is awaiting from the employer representative group in order to ensure compliance? Can we have an update from the board as to what the outcome of that is? There is still no substantial completion date. Could we get an update on that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Do any other members wish to comment on that? No. I agree with the Deputy. From my perspective, it is concerning that we are six or seven weeks on from that engagement with the NPHDB and there is no new or revised 18th or 19th completion date. That is deeply frustrating, not just for committee members but, more importantly, members of the public. At our meeting with the NPHDB, I asked questions because one of the new issues that had arisen in the hospital was dust in the ventilation system and the potential repercussions of that in terms of further delays. I also had concerns about the impact dust in the ventilation system could have on the medical equipment that had been installed. We know a high percentage of the equipment has been installed in the hospital and I wanted to know about any potential impact the dust would have on the equipment. Also, that equipment has been installed for a lengthy period of time at this stage and I wondered whether the warranty on some of it will have expired before it is even utilised. I also wanted to get a note from Children's Health Ireland, CHI, and the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board on those issues. Is it agreed to note and publish the item and proceed with those proposed actions? Agreed.  No. R2026\/0289, dated 29 May 2026, is correspondence received from the HSE in response to the committee's request for further information regarding Rainbow Lodge Respite Services in Monaghan. Do members wish to discuss this item? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  I welcome this letter and that the HSE has said Rainbow Lodge Respite Services will remain open until 30 September 2028, when the new respite centre at Ballybay Road, Drumbear, will be open. I am shocked to see it was the Talbot Group that purchased the interim home for residential care. How much was the Talbot Group paid for doing something as part of an interim process, rather than the HSE purchasing the building outright at the start? How much was the Talbot Group paid for the interim service? Can we send a letter back to the HSE? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Is it agreed to note and publish the item and take that proposed course of action? Agreed.  No. R2026\/0290, dated 28 May 2026, is correspondence received from the Secretary General of the Department of Finance in response to the committee's request for further information at the meeting on 14 May 2026. Do members wish to discuss this item? No. Is it agreed to note and publish the item? Agreed.  No. R2026\/0292, dated 3 June 2026, is correspondence received from the deputy director and head of public affairs and communications at the National Treasury Management Agency, NTMA, in response to the committee's request for further information following the agency's appearance before the committee on 14 May 2026. Deputies Bennett and Geoghegan and I wish to discuss this. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  There was \u20ac429,000 spent on investigative fees. Could the committee get some more information on this? How many individual investigations does the figure relate to? Did all of the investigations relate to individual cases or to a class of case? That relates to point 1 of the correspondence.  In regard to point 2, I raised the prize bonds savings scheme at our previous meeting. The NTMA said at the time that prize bonds do not remain dormant. I ask that the NTMA provide data on the oldest current and active prize bonds. Are the prize bonds decades old and has there been any engagement with the owners over the decades? Does it seem appropriate to the C and AG that there could be, in effect, a fund of money being held, potentially for years, that nobody has claimed, and that there is money in a pot that will never be claimed? Also, how is that building up?  In relation to point 6, the NTMA provided information about staff attendance at an investment fund conference in Cannes. It indicated that these staff were joined by colleagues from the Departments of housing and finance, and IDA Ireland. Can the committee write to the NTMA requesting information on how much this cost, as well as the value of any subsidiary trips that were provided for private investors?  On point 16, I want to put on record that I find it absolutely disgusting that in 2024, in the midst of Israel's genocide in Gaza, the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund, ISIF, actually increased its investment in Israeli war bonds by \u20ac1 million.  The Government says that it is a matter exclusively for the ISIF but I just want to say that I think each and every person who has been part of investing in Israel's genocide on behalf of the people of Ireland should be utterly ashamed of themselves. That should not have happened.  On point No. 17, I also noted that Palantir is not one of the companies referenced as it is not listed as present on the UN database of those deriving profits from their activities in the illegally occupied Palestinian territories. It is, however, separately referenced in the UN reports as having profited from genocide, and that has also been discussed in these Houses. I understand that Ireland first invested in Palantir around 2020 to 2021. Will the NTMA outline the number shares purchased and sold and their value in each year, if Ireland has derived any profits from any other mechanisms such as dividends by year, and the number of shares currently held and their value? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  In relation to the payouts from the State Claims Agency and the breakdown it gave of the \u20ac500 million, we had the NTMA and the State savings agency before us in May, and one of the points made by the director of the State Claims Agency was that if the pre-action protocols, which are regulations that are the responsibility of the Department of justice, were brought into being, they would resoundingly reduce future expenditure of the State in settling clinical claims. Will we put those comments to the Department of justice and write to it in relation to the escalating costs of claims, a huge portion of which relate to legal costs? Will we also inquire from the Department of justice as to where those pre-action protocol regulations are, and when are they likely to be published, so that we can start bringing plaintiffs out of very lengthy, difficult and adversarial processes, and give them the resolutions that plaintiffs are entitled to and, most importantly from the work of this committee, reduce the overall cost to the taxpayer? With the agreement of the committee, I suggest that we write to the Department of justice seeking an update in relation to that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  In relation to the correspondence, can we get the updated list of companies that ISIF has shareholdings in? It is quite concerning that we still have any shares in any companies that are critically important in allowing the illegal expansion of colonial settlements in the West Bank. While the genocide is continuing in Gaza and in the West Bank, we hear further announcements around the expansion of those illegal settlements week in, week out. It is deeply concerning that between 2020 and 2025, we invested in 18 companies that appear on that UN database, which to my mind is certainly not a full picture of the companies that provide those critical services to those colonial expansions of those settlements. The list should and could be more extensive. It is a comprehensive, short list but the fact is that we had \u20ac76 million in shares in 18 companies since 2020. The State has divested from a number of those companies, which is welcome, but it is quite concerning that we still have shares of \u20ac6.744 million in five companies that are complicit in that colonial expansion of those settlements. It is a breach of international law, and we are complicit in that. I would like to get a full explanation as to why we divested from some but not all of the companies that appear on that UN database. There is legislation that I brought forward, and I am going plug it here, that would mandate the ISIF and the NTMA to divest from all shareholdings in any companies that have made the Irish taxpayer complicit in genocide. That ultimately needs to progress to force the State to divest its shareholdings. We need a note from them as to why they only divested from some and continue to have shares worth nearly \u20ac7 million in five companies, which is deeply concerning.  Unless any other members have any other comments, is it agreed to note----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  For clarity, can we agree to write that letter as indicated by Deputy Geoghegan? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Is that agreed? Agreed. Is it also agreed to note and publish the item, along with the agreed course of action? Agreed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  I asked the C and AG a question in relation to the bonds. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy  The prize bonds continue to enforce in perpetuity until they are redeemed. People can get back the face value of the bond. I have one prize bond. It is definitely decades old. I have never heard anything from the prize bond company, so I can personally say that there is no communication on a regular basis. However, it does maintain details of addresses and so on, and when a ticket wins, there is communication with the prize bond holder. In a small number of cases, there might be prizes that have not been issued but I do not have details in relation to that. If the committee is minded, it might follow up with the NTMA as to what is the value of any prizes that remain unclaimed. They do not come under the normal dormant accounts legislation, so the value is not swept up into the Dormant Accounts Fund. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  That money is just sitting there. Nobody is doing anything with it. It is sitting there, and nobody gets to reclaim it----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy  It is effectively a form of borrowing, so the value of it is sitting there and it is available for an individual to reclaim but the money is part of the national debt, and therefore I do not think it is quite correct to describe as just sitting there. The value will always be there for the bond holder but the money has actually been used by the Exchequer. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  It was used by the Exchequer but the Exchequer is not passing on any of the profits in interest that are sitting in that account to the bond owner. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy  The way it is modelled and structured is that the interest value is converted into the prizes. That is what pays for the prizes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank Deputy Bennett. It might be helpful to get some clarity on that process as to how it contacts the winners if someone wins a prize because like the Auditor and Comptroller General, I am sure that people have prize bonds going back many years, and they have probably moved address multiple times. I do not think they are linked to PPS number or anything like that. The company might outline the process of how it identifies where a person is living and how the contact is made. I do not think it is as straightforward as going to the register of electors or anything like that because it is not linked to PPS numbers or whatever. There is a lot of ambiguity there, so a little bit of clarity on that might be helpful. Is it agreed to publish and note the item with the agreed course of actions on that? Agreed.  Moving onto No. R2026\/0293, which is correspondence received from the Secretary General of the Department of Education and Youth, providing follow up information in relation to the Department's appearance before the committee on 26 February 2026, dated 4 June 2026. Deputy Kenny and I have flagged this for discussion. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  I am raising concern in relation to the fact that \u20ac1.3 billion has been spent since 2020 on modular accommodation, which are ultimately prefabs. I hate using the term \"modular accommodation\" because I do not know why we moved away from using the word \"prefab\". In the renting of accommodation and land, as well as the purchasing of modular accommodation, the fact that we have spent \u20ac1.3 billion in five years is a significant investment in modular accommodation and in what I think is inefficient accommodation for students to be learning in and teachers to be teaching in.  I was in modular accommodation when I was a student, and it is an inefficient way of learning. I taught in modular accommodation, and it is an inefficient way of teaching. It is not an environment which any teacher or student wants to be in. The way the Department is phrasing this is that it is an efficient way of providing accommodation to schools, particularly in emergency situations. It has to be accepted that in emergency situations prefabs may be needed, and that is fine. The route we are going down here now is that we are quickly moving away from bricks and mortar. We are going down the route of providing long-term modular accommodation to schools.  If we were to speak to any school that has been given modular accommodation - I am sure all of us in this committee room will have viewed and visited modular accommodation in our constituencies - we would clearly see that modular accommodation is not a long-term solution to the problems being faced by schools in terms of the level of demand for classrooms. In some cases, we have children with specific learning difficulties and special needs who are learning in these environments. It is an inappropriate and ineffective way of trying to almost house students in their school communities.  I have significant concerns relating to the fact that it costs over \u20ac367,000 for each small primary school classroom, excluding VAT. I have concerns about the value for money there. I have concerns too in relation to the procurement process. I am not sure whether the Comptroller and Auditor General may have something to say on this issue. Are we using the same company every time that we purchase or rent one of these prefabs? Are they coming from Ireland or are they being shipped from elsewhere? Are the shipping costs included in this total of \u20ac1.3 billion spent since 2020?  If we spoke to any school principal, I do not think they would choose prefabs over bricks and mortar. My fear is that, in the long term, the Department is quickly moving towards providing prefabs to schools as opposed to providing long-term solutions. They are a blight on communities across this country and on school communities. It is an ineffective way for students to be learning, and it is unfair on students and parents. It is particularly unfair for teachers, former colleagues of mine, to be almost put into sheds to teach in. I do not agree with it.  This committee has to investigate whether these prefabs offer value for money. Schools are being given prefab after prefab to try to provide accommodation for their students, but we do not know if schools receiving a significant number of prefabs, including replacement prefabs, are getting brand-new prefabs or second-hand prefabs. I have concerns in relation to procurement and the overall cost of small primary school classrooms. There is a reference in the letter to 82 sq. m. The Department has come back, as was said previously, in relation to the efficiency of these prefabs, but I have concerns regarding their efficiency. Specifically regarding the remit of this committee, I have concerns about the value-for-money aspect of these prefabs. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  I support what Deputy Kenny has said. The evidence shows us now that the Department is deploying a short-term fix to a long-term problem. This approach is fiscally irresponsible. We have seen many examples in County Kildare, like St. Patrick\u2019s national school, for example, where the lifespan of these prefabs simply fails the children and the teaching community in those schools. The prefabs were meant to have been there for five to ten years, but 25 years later, they are still there and the walls are crumbling around you. The problem is that another short-term fix will be to replace older prefabs with newer prefabs, without, as we heard, bricks and mortar being put in place.  From the perspective of the public accounts, serious questions must be asked of this approach. It is not going to work. We are going to see it used continuously. The State is not building these units. It is either buying or leasing them. We cannot stand over this from a value-for-money perspective. For that reason alone, I think more information is required. As was said, the Comptroller and Auditor General might comment on whether this matter warrants a chapter in and of itself in respect of considering the approach from a procurement perspective. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  I agree with my colleagues. We have seen examples, and not only in respect of the temporary accommodation. We have two things going on here. There are additional modular units at permanent schools. Obviously, they have to be replaced. We also have greenfield or brownfield sites, where new schools are to be put in. Locations are rented, and these become temporary accommodation. This temporary accommodation can go from five years to six years. As Deputy Farrelly said about St. Patrick\u2019s national school, there was a five-year plan to run from 2008 to 2013, allegedly, but here we are now in 2026, and the same place is crumbling. Notwithstanding the work going on now, this speaks to the short-term focus of what we are delivering.  I think it is important that we do look specifically at what returns we are getting, the costs and the length of term. Ultimately, it is a loss to the State if we have to go and replace these locations so soon. I do not mind focusing specifically on this matter. I think it might be due a specific piece of work. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  I thank the previous speakers for raising this issue. I think we have to be a little careful in terms of the language we use. We should be focusing on the words \"temporary\" and \"permanent\", rather than on \"modular\" and \"prefab\", for all the reasons that Deputy Kenny suggested. In housing, we are using modular building now and modern methods of construction, MMC. They are a very efficient and effective way of delivering permanent buildings. This is different from what Deputies Kenny, Farrelly and Neville have spoken about, which is the provision of temporary buildings in locations. I think we should be trying to stick to that language.  I have a particular concern regarding the provision of special education accommodation. A huge attempt has been made to try to meet the unmet need of children, in particular, who require an autism spectrum disorder, ASD, class. As we know from this committee, when there is that type of emergency response, often issues around procurement and value-for-money can be set aside. There may be valid reasons for that, but from the perspective of the Comptroller and Auditor General, I have seen some significant amounts of money paid for very modest accommodation. We should be examining that matter. Whatever issues Deputy Kenny and the other Deputies have raised, I ask that we also include the special education provision, especially during the last two years when huge numbers of facilities have been rolled out. Some of that has been done through temporary accommodation measures. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  I reiterate what everybody has said. I believe it is a complete waste of taxpayers' money. A total of \u20ac20 million was spent on modular accommodation in 2020. It was \u20ac19.7 million in 2021; \u20ac28.2 million in 2022; \u20ac29.6 million in 2023; \u20ac30.5 million in 2024; and \u20ac25.1 million in 2025. Those are all millions of euro spent renting modular buildings. It is a complete waste of taxpayers' money. That money could have been invested in building good, structurally sound buildings, instead of wasting it on modular buildings that are going to disintegrate. These buildings are also only being rented, which is a shocking waste of taxpayers' money. It is completely shocking. In my constituency, a special needs school has been requested for years. The Government has now said it is going to put additional classrooms in modular buildings, which is not what was promised at all. A new school was promised and not modular buildings. I reiterate that it is a complete waste of taxpayers' money. A vast amount of money has been wasted since 2020, and it is on rentals as well. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I concur with the comments from all the members. I am very concerned that \u20ac1.3 billion has been spent over the last five years by a Department that we know has had an overrun in its budget. This has had implications for other Departments right across the board because levies are being imposed. We then see this \u20ac1.3 billion being spent on this type of accommodation. What led to this, ultimately, in my view, was a failure to plan for the future. This has led to having to rent buildings, land and these modular prefabricated structures.  What is captured is only a small picture because the Department admits it does not have a full picture of what the school buildings look like right across the State. It is carrying out an audit of that to give a full picture. I cited in our engagement with the Department a school in Wicklow that has prefabs going back 40 years which are in a dire condition. That school is in the school build programme and under the revised sectoral national development plan a number of schools that were in a lengthy, cumbersome process have been deprioritised. Schools that are caught at the 2B stage have not been given priority. Many of those will be captured within these costs. Some, like the school I referenced, are not captured because they are using a prefab going back 40 years, which is well past its sell-by date. We need to get a copy of that full audit once it is completed. The Department also says it is carrying out a review on the examination of the economy, efficiency and effectiveness of the current prefabricated accommodation rental agreements. We need to get sight of that once that is completed. It cites quarter 4 of this year for completion of that. Once we see that review, it is an area we must come back to because this does not represent value for money. Communities, teachers and, more importantly, students are being let down. From a personal perspective, one of my children started primary school in a prefab and went on to secondary school in a prefab. She went on to be a teacher and was educated in a prefab in teacher training college and only ended up in a new school once she became a primary school teacher. That is a failure. An awful lot of people, communities and children have been failed and the value for money is not there.  Is it agreed we will write back? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  Has the Comptroller and Auditor General ever raised concerns about the procurement process for rented accommodation? As Deputy McAuliffe said, sometimes it is emergency accommodation when a school burns down, for example, and something has to be rented or purchased immediately. Has the Comptroller and Auditor General ever raised concerns about the procurement process itself? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy  Not that I can recall. We would have looked at procurements of that nature over the years and if there was anything significant, I would have called it out and drawn it to the attention of the committee. Deputy McAuliffe's point is especially valid. Separating the emergency response or temporary response, if you like, and providing prefabricated accommodation may be with the intention of it lasting for a short time is possibly a different issue to the development of whole schools or extensions using modular, because modular is obviously a new technology. I would expect the Department, in choosing to use modular accommodation, which is intended to be in place on a permanent basis, to be able to demonstrate it is value for money and properly procured. When we looked at modular accommodation for Ukrainian refugees, it was evident there were many suppliers of modular accommodation and that they were supplying good accommodation as well, so I would not jump to a conclusion that modular is necessarily substandard. We would, over the years, have considered the figures for rent of prefabricated buildings and kept that in view but in total the figure for 2025 is showing there is \u20ac37 million. That is in the context of an overall budget of \u20ac10 billion, so we have not picked it out as something to investigate but certainly we will consider it when we are looking at the programme of work we do. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  On the purchasing of the accommodation, it is in one sense difficult to understand. Let us say a school building burns down and we purchase modular accommodation with the intent, maybe, of building a brand new school with bricks and mortar. What happens with that modular accommodation after it has been purchased? We have no idea if the Department is getting rid of that modular accommodation or providing it to a different school. Is it being stored? Is the Department buying that modular accommodation with a view to it being the permanent fix to an emergency situation at the time? The word \"temporary\" is also very vague. To me anyway temporary suggests a very short period but to the Department it seems like 25 years. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  We can get clarify from the Department on those issues. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy  To give my understanding of it, there is a significant bulge moving through the school population and so if it was the situation that you were looking at needing accommodation to deal with a bulge for maybe three or four years in a particular location you might decide to use temporary accommodation. That is using prefabricated, which is modular, but I do not think that is what the Department is talking about when it talks of using modular technology to deliver permanent accommodation for schools. It will be fixed in place. That is my understanding of it. On the prefabricated accommodation, I think when we were looking at Kildare and Wicklow ETB there was a situation where prefabricated accommodation was located on one campus for a period, and there was obviously expense in plumbing it in, providing electricity onsite and so on. Then it was moved to another campus where there was a need for temporary accommodation, let us say while a school was growing or permanent accommodation was being provided. Thus there is certainly capacity to move prefabricated temporary accommodation from one site to another and to use it. However, I understand most of that is on a rental basis, so the company that owns the property would be involved in the movement. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  I seek clarity on that. We are talking about rental going on for ever and the schools never owning these buildings. This is rental of these modular units. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy  Rental should go on for the period that you are contracted, so------ "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  But that means forever, whereas if you owned the school building you would own it forever. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  For the period that it is contracted for. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy  Yes. That is a value-for-money proposition as well. I imagine a prefabricated building has a shorter life and you would be expecting it to be in use for perhaps ten or 15 years. I am not sure how long exactly. Looking at the economics of that, the Department should be able to explain over what period it makes sense to rent prefabricated accommodation and at what point it makes more sense to buy it. If you are likely to be using it for maybe eight years then you should buy it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  There is a significant difference in the cost of renting it. I think about \u20ac222 million has been spent on renting land and modular accommodation since 2025. Would that be correct? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy  No. If the Deputy looks at the screen at the moment it says rental of land and buildings. That is for the provision of temporary accommodation. That could be that you rent maybe a car park of a sports club to put accommodation in place. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  I meant the renting of buildings and land. Rental of land and rental of modular. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy  For the total with renting of modular - the actual accommodation - we are looking at \u20ac37 million in 2025. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  Yes, in 2025 but in 2020 it was \u20ac29.3 million and in 2021 \u20ac29.2 million. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  So it is about \u20ac220 million since 2020. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy  Probably. If you tot it up, it would be coming to that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  I suppose it is in and around \u20ac1 billion in relation to the purchasing of accommodation. I would say the Department is looking at modular accommodation as a long-term solution to providing accommodation. Perhaps we are moving towards that, particularly in relation to housing as well. I am wondering about the viability of modular accommodation, for students to be learning in and teachers to be teaching in. What is the value-for-money aspect of that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy  The Department should be able to demonstrate that. I have no difficulty in considering doing a piece looking at that but the Department has the obligation because it is spending the money. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  Exactly. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy  They have got to satisfy themselves and they should be able to present----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  Try to satisfy themselves. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy  -----to this committee an analysis that demonstrates that this type of methodology is a better way to provide permanent accommodation, where we choose to go the modular route as opposed to the traditional brick-build, block-build or whatever. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Deputy Farrelly is looking to come in. The Department cites that it is carrying out a review, which should be completed by quarter 4, looking at those issues around efficiency, effectiveness and economy. It is an issue we will certainly return to. We will follow up with the Department and get clarity on all of those points. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  To pick up on the Comptroller and Auditor General's point, this issue is making project managers out of principals, who should be focused on running internal school matters but are ringing round each other asking, \"Are you finished with that modular unit? Can we get it transferred to our premises?\", and having to look at the logistics of that and the costs associated with it. Where that review will be criticised, in my opinion and without prejudging it, is that when a school is languishing at stage 2a of a capital building programme for ten or 12 years, obviously it will be more cost-effective to have the modular units for five to eight years because at least they have these units. That review needs to look at the whole piece in the round, as in the length of time it says. The Department says the average duration of a school build is eight to ten years but that is simply inaccurate in many cases. What we are doing is drawing on our internal HR resources in schools and asking principals or senior members of staff to become and play a completely different role than they are qualified to do. It is not right. That is why the greater emphasis we as a committee can bring to this would be beneficial. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I call Deputy McAuliffe. We need to move on then. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  If we are to write to the Department, I reiterate the point about the words that we use. Even in this conversation, we are all using the words interchangeably and they all mean different things. In some cases, it means a unit that is manufactured off site, installed as a permanent building on the site and purchased by the State. That is a very different thing than renting temporary so-called \"prefab\" accommodation. We are using the word \"prefab\" for both of them but they have a totally different impact on the State's costs. We need to be careful in the room here about what we are asking the Department because as the committee will be aware, sometimes we get answers back that are a little vague. We need to be specific in what we are asking, and also specific in where our concerns are because some people in the room will have concerns around rental and some people, as Deputy Farrelly said, will have concerns about value for money for permanent construction. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Is it agreed to note this, publish it and follow up on the course of action that members suggested? Agreed.  No. R2026-0301 is correspondence received from the chairperson of the Office of Public Works, responding to the committee\u2019s request for further information regarding the national children\u2019s science centre, dated 9 June 2026. Both Deputy Farrelly and I have flagged this for discussion. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  What we see now is more detail as to the legal costs incurred by the State in trying to defend the indefensible, where we have \u20ac1.1 million plus. Now we have the information from the Chief State Solicitor's office of \u20ac377,000. Everyone is having to go and try to defend a decision that was made that is legal. From the science centre's perspective, this is a catastrophic failure, in terms of an experiment here. This is really not the way to go.  My concern is we are getting consistent correspondence, when we all know the elephant in the room is that there is no parent Department to drive this project. We will see consistently, over the next coming months and years while this deadline approaches, that more money will be spent on trying to litigate and defend the indefensible. At some point, this committee needs to press pause. What I would advocate for is that we issue correspondence to the Department of the Taoiseach, the T\u00e1naiste, the OPW and the Department of public expenditure and reform saying this is a crisis at this point. A parent Department must be found in order to deliver this project or else we will not learn anything from this. We will only continue to waste public money in areas that will not make any child's experience of this centre any better. We are where we are. The next steps are critically important now. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  This is an issue that has bounced around in here for the past year. I am sure it bounced around before this group were here as well in PAC. Last week gave me less comfort about the whole thing than I had, not that I ever had any comfort in what has gone on. The decision is made and nobody can follow through on the decision.  Strangely, last week in the room we had the two key stakeholders who could have given us any clarity and answer. We had the Secretary General of the Department of public expenditure and reform who gave us nothing on it and then we had an official from the OPW who did not want to talk about it in front of the Secretary General of the Department of public expenditure and reform, so we were none the wiser. That was shocking, but I am not shocked at the same time because it summed up the whole thing. Everybody is putting their head in the sand. Nobody wants to make a comment. Nobody wants ownership, yet the bills keep ticking. Essentially, somebody has the State over a barrel to a degree because of a legal document being signed. We are sitting here waiting for the fallout but the costs continue. I do not know where it will end. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  If you were to ask me when I got elected what would be the number one issue on the doors we would try and resolve at the public accounts committee, I am not sure the children's science museum would be the one that any of us here would have picked, but all of us have identified something here that is clearly wrong. I was flabbergasted last week that we had the OPW and the Department of public expenditure and reform here in the room and there was not even any indication of where strategically the State will proceed on this.  I have a question for the Comptroller and Auditor General. There appears to be an obligation on the OPW, which has a separate Vote from that of the Department of public expenditure and reform to the D\u00e1il. Perhaps I was wrong in thinking that because the parent Department of the OPW is the Department of public expenditure and reform, there would be in some sense a shared responsibility for that legal obligation but because there are two separate Votes, the indication was given here that it is a commitment the OPW entered into legally and it is for the OPW to resolve it. That is perplexing. It would mean that any State Department could enter into any legal commitment without having the financial back-up and then every other Department, and the Department of public expenditure and reform in particular, can back away from it. I wonder could the Comptroller and Auditor General help us untangle that issue of the two Votes but essentially the one Department. I am sorry for putting the Comptroller and Auditor General on the spot now. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy  No, it is okay. This does raise fundamental questions. How can a body enter into a legal commitment without having the sanction of the Department of public expenditure and reform? The Secretary General of the Department of public expenditure and reform spoke about this last week. What is the point of sanction and does it have no legal effect, if somebody can actually sign a commitment? That is actually what happened here and the people who made that commitment were in the OPW. If they have got a problem, they made it themselves.  I tend to look at these things as much from an economic point of view. The reason that none of the obvious candidate Departments want to touch this is they have a limited amount of capital to spend in the next three to four years.  For the Department of education to pick three schools that are not going to be built so that this museum can be built is a big ask. That is what people are talking about when they are sitting around trying to decide who will fund it. The OPW has to fund it if nobody else is willing to pay for it. Looking at it from an economic incentives point of view, if the Department of further and higher education, for example, felt that this museum could actually be an interesting thing and it would not have to pay for it because the OPW had to, it would throw up huge questions about how control operated in the expenditure system. The committee has an opportunity to comment on that. It goes to the crux of everything.  I have frequently drawn attention to situations where spending has happened without the sanction of the Department of Finance. The body will have found the money and paid it, but the sanction was not there. What does it mean? What is the comeback? The comeback in this situation for the Vote holder sees the Accounting Officer in the OPW with a problem. He has to deliver something on the one hand and, on the other, he has to find the money, or somebody who is willing to give him the money, to do it. The problem is remaining with the OPW. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  That is really useful. The alarming thing is that, since February when the OPW was with us, it has spent another \u20ac20,000 preparing documents for a building that no Department wants to build. This committee needs to press a button and say \"Stop\". We need to communicate to the OPW following the meeting last week that it needs to present a solution for this issue. We cannot have a situation where we get to the end of this year and have spent \u20ac30,000, \u20ac40,000 or \u20ac50,000 on technical documents for a building that we are never going to build. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  We are all really frustrated about this. I have huge concerns - we saw it here last week - about accountability. There are no consequences. The OPW clearly made at least two very bad decisions, but it is taxpayer who is picking up the bill. Whatever about the refurbishment of the building, the long-term operating cost of something like this is huge. I have more than three schools in my constituency that are 20 years in the process of getting new school buildings and upgrades. No matter the merits of the legal argument, I have a serious issue with people who are well off and, on the face of it, being philanthropic pushing the State on this. If they really want to be philanthropic and advance the needs of science in this country, there are many other organisations that they could be investing in. I have a serious issue with the State being compelled. I accept that the OPW has made several wrong decisions and I have a serious problem with the Secretary General of the Department of public expenditure washing his hands of it, but we need to resolve this. It is not just about the building, but also the long-term operation and whether it would really be of any value to the State when we have a whole school building estate that is badly in need of upgrade and the delivery of new buildings. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  Deputy McAuliffe used the word \"Stop\". By the end of this D\u00e1il in November 2029, we could still be in a position where that legal obligation has not been met. As a committee, we have identified this as a significant issue in the middle of 2026. Does it fall under our remit as committee to be able to say to the Department of public expenditure that if it is not committing to it or it cannot commit to it, taxpayers' money is at stake over the next three years? Can we tell the Department to stop spending that money now and put a resolution in place, be that to completely stop and pull out of the agreement and, therefore, perhaps pay the legal costs if necessary or to fully commit to delivering the project and find the money somewhere? My fear is that, in three years\u2019 time, we will still be going through process. A significant amount of money has been spent over the past three years. Deputy McAuliffe mentioned that \u20ac20,000 had been spent this year alone. Do we as a committee have to look back and say that we had a chance in the middle of 2026, following significant questioning of the Departments and Irish Children's Museum Limited, ICML, and we did not stop it from happening? What remit do we have here? Do we have a possibility of providing an opportunity to the Department of public expenditure or the OPW to say that we recommend it do this? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I wish to make a few proposals and comments. I echo the concerns here. It is like Groundhog Day. We know what needs to happen. I have said it repeatedly. There needs to be a political intervention. There is a legal obligation that has been established now through arbitration hearings, with significant costs. We do not have full sight of the final legal costs from the ICML's perspective. Those still have to be furnished. A total of \u20ac1.1 million has been spent on legal expenditure to date. That is going to increase substantially because over \u20ac800,000 of that \u20ac1.1 million has gone to cover the legal costs of ICML. I would not be surprised if those legal costs hit \u20ac2 million, which would be an absolute waste of money. On top of that, the contract has been signed with the technical consultants, with \u20ac22,000 for designing a scheme to bring it to tender, which is ultimately going nowhere.  There are many concerns here. It may have been an off-the-cuff remark, but when Mr. Conlon was in, he said that if the OPW was forced to do this, it would have to look at flood protection schemes not progressing. The C and AG cited schools possibly going unfunded or not going ahead. That is the prospect that the OPW is looking at because of the political intransigence that is occurring around this. The OPW has a team of people working on this as well. They should and could be working on flood protection schemes and other necessary programmes. We do not have sight of those costs. There are so many failures on so many different levels.  I will repeat another deep concern. Other members and I have repeatedly asked for the final determination document. We still do not have sight of it. It is going to be critical because it will go into more detail in terms of the cost, timelines, etc. The final award can only be adjudicated on in tandem with that. It is unbelievable and totally unacceptable that we still do not have that despite a full engagement with plenty of notice given to both the Department of public expenditure and the OPW in our engagement last week. We should have had that well in advance of last week. Here we are a week later and we still have not got sight of it. We need to get that immediately.  We need to try to bring this to a head in whatever way we can as the public accounts committee from a financial point of view and in terms of a further wastage of money. Ultimately, we will draft a report on this with a series of recommendations. We should look at drafting an interim report quickly, one with a strong recommendation, with a view of bringing that interim report before the members as quickly as possible to put that pressure on. The longer this head-in-the-sand approach takes, the more exposure there is to wastage for taxpayers' money for a process that, ultimately, is going to end up in litigation again unless political intervention is taken.  I propose that we write back and ask for immediate access to the final determination document. I also propose that we work on an interim report with a series of recommendations, with a view to having that agreed and published before we break for the summer recess. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  I agree with that.  I went up to the National Concert Hall site to see the venue. UCD left that building between 2007 and 2009. When one walks the corridors of one wing of the National Concert Hall building, there are still posters on the wall from when UCD left that building. There are corridors with books in classrooms.  Even if nothing ever happens with the national children's science museum, there is still an entire wing of the National Concert Hall that is not subject to the renovations, as far as I am aware, and is lying idle under the auspices of the OPW. Even if it does nothing with the children's science museum or if it comes up with an alternative strategy or whatever, the idea of such a large part of a national building right in the middle of the city has been lying idle for nearly two decades while we perhaps may have been renting Government premises elsewhere and other things, is one element of it. Even outside of the children's science museum, this is a portion of a very important building - literally where the D\u00e1il sat - that has been lying idle for a long time and the OPW seems to have no plan for it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy  I made an observation on this when we were examining the chapter. I feel part of the reason the OPW got into this was it had a building and was looking for a purpose for it. In fairness, it wants to develop a landmark building and facility there and there is an element of the OPW also pushing the project to solve the problem the Deputy is talking about.  On the other hand, having left the building empty for 20 years - or whatever the period was - it does not mean no other purpose could have been found for it. As that building could be in use, there is a cost associated with some facility that could have gone in there and have been using it for the past ten or 15 years. That opportunity cost has been incurred.  I would also mention just one economic concept, which is sunk cost. What you have already spent does not matter; you have got to look at what you have to spend in the future to use that facility and to meet your obligations. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  We need to move on. I call Deputy Farrelly. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  I support the Chair's two actions, and I would go back to the point he raised regarding political intervention. I come back around to the idea that this needs to be at the Department of the Taoiseach and at the T\u00e1naiste's desk quite soon to ask for that intervention in order to bring everybody involved into a room they do not exit until there is a plan. The State has been told it must fulfil on this obligation, so it now needs to act on that.  Notwithstanding everything else that happens, I ask that we request a meeting be convened between the stakeholders, chaired by whoever that is, to progress an action out of this. We can do that chapter, which I absolutely support, and we can write to the OPW. However, the OPW made it clear that it will do this if it has the money to do so in its defence, there is no hesitation on this. It does not have the money and will not get it, yet it will be tarnished with the reputational damage associated with it not fulfilling its legal obligation. That is not okay. We need to have a grown-up conversation now.  Somebody, whether that is the Department of the Taoiseach or the T\u00e1naiste, as Minister for Finance, needs to get involved in this now. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  If it is agreed by members, we can write to the Department of the Taoiseach with the ask that people get together in a room to try to bring closure to this. In tandem, we will work on an interim report with a series of recommendations. Is that agreed? Agreed. Is it agreed to note and publish the item? Agreed.  Regarding the next couple of items, I propose to defer Nos. R2026\/0306 and R2026\/0307, as well as the last item, No. R2026\/0319. Is that agreed? Agreed.  Moving onto the work programme, the following meetings have been agreed: on 25 June, we have the board of Beaumont Hospital; on 2 July, we have NAMA; on 9 July, we have RT\u00c9; and on 16 July, we have the NTA, along with Irish Rail.  Moving onto any other business, are there any other issues or items members wish to raise at this stage? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy  I might come back to Deputy Bennett on the question she asked regarding Home Building Finance Ireland. The amount of loans out to developers at the end of 2024 was \u20ac397 million, which was up from \u20ac291 million at the end of 2023. That gives an idea of the scale of the operation of Home Building Finance Ireland. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Are there any other items under any other business? No.  I have one quick item. Members will have seen some of the commentary around the allegations of public consultants in hospitals getting gifts for delivering babies, which were coming from private consultants. At first, it was mainly in reference to the Rotunda Hospital but I think it is more extensive than that, or it appears to be so. I propose we write to the HSE. It is an issue of serious concern, particularly with consultant contracts, which have been widely discussed. We might get a note from the HSE on that. Is that agreed? Agreed.  That concludes session 2. We will now suspend for five minutes. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Sitting suspended at 11.06 a.m. and resumed at 11.08 a.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Business of Committee"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/committee_of_public_accounts\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_3","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Appropriation Accounts 2024","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":false,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Appropriation Accounts 2024"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/committee_of_public_accounts\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_4","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Vote 45 - Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":false,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_4","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Vote 45 - Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/committee_of_public_accounts\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_5","debateType":"statement","bill":null,"showAs":"Financial Statements 2024: National Training Fund","counts":{"speechCount":635,"speakerCount":11},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_5","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanna Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Dr. Colm O\u2019Reardon ( Secretary General, Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science ) called and examined."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  This morning, we will engage with the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science to examine its appropriation accounts for 2024.  On behalf of the committee, I welcome officials from the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science: Dr. Colm O'Reardon, Secretary General; Ms Fiona O'Byrne, assistant secretary general, further education, training, apprenticeships and skills division; Mr. Keith Moynes, assistant secretary general, higher education policy division; Mr. William Beausang, assistant secretary general, corporate services and capital division; and Ms Valerie Considine, principal officer, finance unit. We are also joined by officials who are attending in a representative capacity from Skillnet Ireland: Mr. Mark Jordan, chief executive officer, and Mr. Shane O'Keeffe, chief operating officer. From the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation, we have Ms Georgina Hughes-Elders, principal officer, and Mr. Jaime Mar\u00edn. Finally, we are joined by officials from the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General including Mr. Seamus McCarthy, Comptroller and Auditor General, who is a permanent witness to the committee, and Ms Paula O'Connor, deputy director of audit. They are all very welcome here this morning.  Before we begin, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege.  This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege, and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.  Witnesses are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity.  I now call on the Comptroller and Auditor General to deliver his opening statement. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy  The appropriation account for Vote 45 \u2013 Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science \u2013 records total expenditure of \u20ac3.59 billion in 2024. This was up 8% from the \u20ac3.3 billion spent in 2023.  Expenditure under the Vote is accounted for under three programmes: skills development; higher education; and research, innovation and science. Expenditure under the higher education programme amounted to \u20ac2.69 billion, including grant funding to higher education institutions transferred via the Higher Education Authority, HEA. Issues from the Vote included \u20ac1.6 billion in recurrent grant support for higher education institutions; \u20ac195 million provided for third level infrastructure projects; and \u20ac255 million to fund pension costs relating to former staff of third level institutions. Just under \u20ac364 million was spent on student support grants and related expenses. The majority of this was provided through the Student Universal Support Ireland, SUSI, scheme. The scheme is operated on behalf of the Department by Dublin City Education and Training Board. Members may recall that when the financial statements of the education and training board were presented, I drew attention to a number of matters affecting SUSI operations, including delays and project cost overruns on an IT system upgrade project.  The Vote programme for skills development involved expenditure of just over \u20ac617 million, including grant support to SOLAS, which funds further education and training activities, including apprenticeships.  A total of just under \u20ac282 million was spent under the research, innovation and science programme. The bulk of this was transferred to Science Foundation Ireland, which has since been amalgamated into Taighde \u00c9ireann.  On the receipts side, appropriations-in-aid of the Vote amounted to just under \u20ac108 million in 2024. The majority of these receipts, just over \u20ac93 million, relate to additional superannuation contributions deducted from the salaries of staff in higher education institutions, and in the Department's aegis bodies.  For 2024, the net surplus on the Vote remaining at the year's end was \u20ac16.25 million, which was liable for surrender to the Exchequer.  I issued a clear audit opinion in relation to the appropriation account and drew attention to one disclosure in the statement on internal financial control related to non-compliance with procurement rules in respect of contracts to the value of \u20ac729,000.  The National Training Fund, NTF, is a statutory departmental fund set up to support employment-focused training. The fund's resources are ring-fenced for specific statutory purposes, and unlike the Vote, any unspent balances at the end of the year are not liable for surrender to the Central Fund.  Receipts into the training fund comprise mainly the proceeds of a levy on certain employers collected through employer pay-related social insurance. The income of the fund in 2024 amounted to \u20ac1.2 billion, while payments amounted to just under \u20ac978 million. The result was a surplus for the year of \u20ac229 million, which brought the accumulated surplus in the fund to a total of \u20ac1.77 billion at the end of 2024. I reported in my 2023 annual report on how the fund surplus has grown steadily over recent years.  The fund's expenditure is divided mainly between programmes focused on those currently in employment, including apprentices, and on skills development for those looking to take up employment or to re-enter the workforce. Substantial resources flow from the fund to SOLAS and the HEA, and onwards to their respective client agencies.  Separately, the Department also provides substantial recurrent funding from the Training Fund to Skillnet Ireland, which in turn distributes grant-funding to support sectoral training networks. Skillnet Ireland, a company limited by guarantee, received public funding totalling \u20ac51 million in 2024 and \u20ac61 million in 2023.  I issued a clear audit opinion in relation to the 2024 NTF financial statements but drew attention to a disclosure in the statement on internal financial control concerning Skillnet Ireland funding.  Skillnet Ireland received a protected disclosure in September 2023 that raised concerns in relation to the operation of one of the sectoral training networks it funds. Around the same time, similar disclosures were made to the Department and to my own office. I am not the auditor of Skillnet Ireland's financial statements, but we have kept developments in relation to the protected disclosure under review in the audits of the 2023 and 2024 financial statements of the training fund.  Skillnet Ireland commissioned an independent investigation of the concerns raised in the disclosure. The investigation concluded in June 2025. By December 2025, when I was reporting on the fund's 2024 financial statements, the Department had not yet received the investigation report and had been unable to identify if any changes were required in the system of controls in place in respect of the application of NTF resources, arising from the investigation findings.  Since the financial statements were presented, the Accounting Officer has provided updates to the committee about this matter. My office will examine further the systemic control implications of the investigation findings in the context of the audit of the 2025 financial statements of the fund. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I now ask the Secretary General, Dr. O'Reardon, to deliver the opening statement on behalf of the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. As set out in the letter of invitation, he has five minutes in which to do so. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  I am pleased be here this morning to assist the committee in its examination of the 2024 appropriation account for Vote 45 and the 2024 financial statements of the NTF. To assist me in answering members' questions, I am joined today by my colleagues Mr. William Beausang, assistant secretary, research and innovation, EU and international; Mr. Keith Moynes, assistant secretary, higher education policy; Ms Fiona O'Byrne, assistant secretary, skills policy and further education and training; Mr. Paul Lemass, assistant secretary, capital development; and Ms Valerie Considine, finance officer.  The Vote group of the Department comprises both the Vote and the NTF. While separate sets of annual accounts are prepared for each, they are treated as a single Vote group for budgetary purposes. Combined gross expenditure in 2024 amounted to \u20ac4.57 billion, comprising \u20ac3.6 billion under the Vote and \u20ac978 million under the NTF. This was \u20ac6 million, or 0.2%, below the revised gross budgetary allocation, which included a \u20ac40 million capital carryover from the previous year.  In October 2024, the Department received a Supplementary Estimate of \u20ac252 million to support cost-of-living measures, public sector pay and pension costs, and increased demand for further education and training provision.  The Department's Vote is structured across three programmes, each one representing a key policy priority. Programme A focuses on skills development, with expenditure of \u20ac617 million in 2024. Most of this funding is allocated to SOLAS to support the delivery of further education and training through 16 education and training boards. Programme B covers higher education, with expenditure of \u20ac2.7 billion. This includes grant funding to universities through the HEA, student supports via SUSI and investment in capital infrastructure. Programme C focuses on research, innovation and science, with expenditure of \u20ac282 million supporting science and technology programmes as well as research activity in third level institutions.  The NTF has played an important role in Ireland's skills system for over 25 years.  It was established under the National Training Fund Act 2000 and it is a dedicated fund to support training that is closely linked to employment. It is funded through a levy of 1% on certain employee earnings. The NTF funds a number of schemes delivered by Government Departments and agencies as well as business and community organisations. Its purpose is to help people to gain employment, remain in work and develop new skills as needs change. It aims to strengthen workforce capability and support economic growth by ensuring a well-skilled labour force. It achieves this through three programme areas that support skills development and training across the country. These include programmes to upskill those in employment, including apprenticeships; the provision of training to support entry and re-entry into the workforce; and the development of information systems to identify current and future needs within the economy.  Investment from the fund has grown steadily in recent years. NTF expenditure in 2026 is expected to be 94% higher than it was in 2021, demonstrating a sustained and substantial increase in funding over a short period. Income to the fund has also grown strongly, reflecting wider economic growth. While this is positive, it has resulted in an accumulated surplus. A package of \u20ac1.5 billion over six years was agreed as part of budget 2025 including \u20ac885 million in current spending and \u20ac650 million in capital investment. Earlier this year, the National Training Fund (Amendment) Act 2025 was commenced which allows for capital expenditure from the fund. In practical terms, the surplus package will support continued investment in further and higher education, apprenticeships, research and improved facilities and equipment. It is important to note that while the changes allow for capital spending, all expenditure must align with the purposes set out in the Act. It must also remain within overall Government expenditure ceilings. All expenditure from the NTF is considered in the context of the overall fiscal and budgetary framework agreed by the Government. Any increase in NTF spending without corresponding adjustments elsewhere within the Vote would have direct implications for my Department\u2019s expenditure ceiling and for overall Government spending parameters.  Overall, the fund will continue to support steady, balanced development across the education and training system. One of the Department\u2019s aegis bodies supported by the NTF is Skillnet Ireland. Its core role is to support the competitiveness, productivity and innovation of businesses in Ireland through enterprise-led workforce development. Skillnet Ireland operates through a networked model whereby funding is provided to contracting organisations to operate business networks. These networks bring together groups of companies on a sectoral or regional basis to identify and address their skills needs. The model is designed to be responsive to industry and operates on a cost-sharing basis combining State funding with contributions from participating enterprises. In his audit of the 2024 NTF financial statements, the Comptroller and Auditor General drew attention to a protected disclosure received by Skillnet in late 2023 which raised concerns regarding the operation of one such contracting organisation. Reviews of this entity were carried out by Skillnet Ireland including through the engagement of an independent external reviewer. The overall process was complex and protracted. These investigations ultimately identified two amounts to be returned to Skillnet Ireland - ineligible expenditure of \u20ac18,942 and an unused grant amount of \u20ac47,639. These amounts have since been repaid in full to Skillnet Ireland. Skillnet Ireland has also informed me that it has made referrals to the Garda, the Revenue Commissioners and the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement on these matters. We look forward to engaging with the committee and answering any questions members may have. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank Dr. O'Reardon. Please note we will suspend the meeting at about 12.30 p.m. for a 15-minute break and resume afterwards. I will now open the floor to members. The lead speaker is Deputy Bennett who has 15 minutes. All other speakers have ten minutes. If time permits, on conclusion I will allow members back in for a short supplementary round of questions. I call Deputy Bennett. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  I welcome everybody here today. On the investigation, were there any sanctions on Skillnet for not providing the documentation straight away when the audit was carried out? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  This was a particularly complex protected disclosure. My understanding is Skillnet routinely audits the networks it works with. It had some concerns about this particular one. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  Did it bring that to Dr. O'Reardon's attention? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  It would not have brought it to my attention at that stage. I received a protected disclosure which was rather complicated. As the Deputy is aware, protected disclosures have to treated with a fair degree of sensitivity and confidentiality. We were made aware in an early warning report that it had some concerns but it took some time for this protected disclosure to be investigated and for the investigation to be finalised. We sought updates from Skillnet but on the other hand we have to be very careful----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  Does the Department not have terms of reference with all the organisations it gives State money to? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  We do have that with Skillnet. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  If the terms of reference were not abided by, what were the sanctions? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  We reviewed our terms of reference with Skillnet and amended the text to make sure in the future we ask it to give us a sense of whether there are issues in a protected disclosure that it can update us on. When we are talking about protected disclosure we have to be very careful about protecting a whistleblower, if one is involved, or a protected person. There are limitations on what you can ask. This was a complex one. The entity involved did not co-operate with the investigation and the discloser at a certain point stopped co-operating with the investigation which would in some sense explain the lengthy period it took to conclude. I would say it took too long. There are lessons to be learned about how quickly these things can be addressed but it was a complex case and it took some time to reach a conclusion. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  Does Dr. O'Reardon believe all of the issues have now been addressed? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  I am confident insofar as I can be that any moneys due to Skillnet have been returned. The matter has been referred to the Garda and Revenue. They are the competent authorities to take it from here. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  Why was the unredacted version of the report not provided to the committee? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  I do not have an unredacted version of the report. I have a redacted version which I have seen. I have been given----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  Should Skillnet not be----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  I would very much prefer to share it with the committee but my legal advice is I am precluded from doing so. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  The Department still has not seen an unredacted version of the report. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  I have seen a version of the report which I am satisfied gives me enough information to be happy that the relevant actions that needed to be taken have been taken. There is an element of redaction in the report to protect the identity of the discloser and various other elements. There is enough in the report for me to be satisfied that the right actions have been taken. The matter has been referred to the Garda, Revenue and the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I find it deeply concerning, with the investigation completed nearly a year ago, that the Department still has not had sight of a full report. That is serious. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  It is very serious. What changes has the Department implemented in relation to Skillnet and other organisations and the Department's oversight of funding? It does not read very well that there is great oversight of funding when it does not even have the unredacted version of that report. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  We have a performance delivery agreement with Skillnet. We have reviewed that and altered the text to make sure any aspect of protected disclosure which might identify any financial wrongdoing or misuse of funds is identified to us. We have provided the text of that. Skillnet has also strengthened its own internal controls and the funding agreements it reaches with the various networks it co-operates with. It is in the process of reviewing them and it has taken various actions. We have a system of performance delivery agreements with our agencies on oversight. We comply with the code for oversight of aegis bodies.  There is a particular case in respect of which we are precluded from receiving that information - it is around the protection of the discloser - and where we do not want to compromise any investigation that the Garda might be involved with. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  Again, we feel the Department is not telling us everything about the investigation. In such circumstances, how can we have full confidence in anyone getting Government funding from the Department? How can we be sure that the funding is being spent and that there is governance and oversight? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  We have been through the protected disclosures process with Skillnet. As I said, it took a long time. We are satisfied that any money that might be due to it has been repaid and that, as a result, neither Skillnet nor the State is at a loss in this circumstance. To the extent that there are issues that need to be addressed as to how Skillnet operates, it is addressing them. In terms of the report, we operate in an environment where there is legislation that protects people who make protected disclosures. We have to respect that. We have to operate within the law. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  Does the Department have protected disclosures from any other companies that it gave money to? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  I have a list. From time to time, we would expect protected disclosures to occur. If the Deputy thinks about our system, there are 12 universities and 16 ETBs, so we would expect protected disclosures to happen within those organisations, depending on what might take place at any particular time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  Going forward, the Department will ensure that any disclosures are reported to the Comptroller and Auditor General. This was not reported immediately. Is that correct? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  We have a system of early warning reports that operates with our aegis bodies. We have agreed that we will provide those to the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General on an ongoing basis in order that it can be aware of whatever may come up. To come back to the point, this is a particularly complex case, and one that merits referral to further authorities. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  I have a question for Skillnet. Why were there such delays in producing the documents? Skillnet is still not producing the full documents. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  It is worth pointing out that this was the first protected disclosure the organisation had ever received, and also that it is in relation to an organisation that is completely separate from and independent of ourselves but which we fund. We sought legal advice on how to manage the process. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  Did Skillnet bring the matter to the Department's attention? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  As soon as it was assigned to us in the context of our role as an \u201cother suitable person\u201d, we notified the Department that we had received and been assigned the protected disclosure. We spent some time with the reporter defining the scope and the terms of reference. We also engaged with Raiseaconcern. During that period, we realised that this required an independent investigation. As a result, there was a tendering process. The investigation was undertaken after that process concluded. The investigators were met with resistance such that the reporter was unable to co-operate with the investigation. The company that had been reported against worked through its legal advisers, who advised it not to participate in the investigation. Therefore, the investigators only really had information from Skillnet Ireland to work on. Once that had concluded and they were able to investigate to the best of their abilities, we worked across our legal teams to identify the process for recovering and having funds repaid that were due and held up as allegations. We then finalised the report and provided the Department with a briefing. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  Does Skillnet Ireland have a board? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  We do. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  Who authorises appointments to or places people on the board? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  We have recently revised the constitution. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  How many people are on the board? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  There are 13 people. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  How are they nominated? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  The Minister appoints all of the----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  The Minister appoints everybody to Skillnet. Does the board not report back to the Minister? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  To clarify, the Minister appoints five members of the board. The other eight members are nominated through industry bodies that sit within our board. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  The board members are delegated to the board by the Minister. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  That is correct. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  Did the board report to the Minister on what was happening in Skillnet? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  Not to my knowledge. The executive was working with the Department. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  I am going to move on from Skillnet, because I have spent quite a bit of time on that. I would like to discuss training for senior officials within the Department. Will Dr. O\u2019Reardon give an estimation of how much that costs yearly? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  For senior officials, it varies. If we describe that as the management board, assistant secretary and above, that depends on----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  How much is it for the Secretary General? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  Over the past two years, I have done one programme that cost about \u20ac8,000 over two years, plus the expenses involved in attending the programme. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  Who was the Secretary General in the period 2022 to 2023? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  That was Mr. Jim Breslin. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  I have a report here that he spent \u20ac65,000 on a course. Is that correct? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  What did that course relate to? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  It was a course at Stanford. I believe it was some sort of leadership development course----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  Sixty-five thousand euro. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  -----with an emphasis on sustainable development and----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  What value did the taxpayer get from that? For a start, he does not work in the Department any more. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  I am limited in the information I have on this. I joined the Department as Secretary General to replace him, so I am not across the detail of what the conversation might have been had between him and----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  Who would have sanctioned the \u20ac65,000 to be spent on a \u201cBe a Leader Who Matters\u201d programme at Stanford University in the USA in 2022? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  The way this would have worked is that he would have a conversation with the performance review group that reviews the performance of Secretaries General. My understanding is that he then engaged with the senior public service, which is the unit that previously existed in the Department of public expenditure and which now sits with the IPA. He agreed the course with that unit. It made a contribution to paying for it and we funded the difference, that is, an invoice came in to the Department. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  What was the difference? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  The \u20ac65,000 is what the Department paid. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  That is what the Department paid. The course actually cost more than that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  I think the senior public service made a contribution of \u20ac10,000. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  So it was \u20ac75,000 for the course. How long was the course? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  I understand it was about six weeks. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  I will move on. I have a question about an IT system that the Department has in place. In fact, the SUSI IT system is not actually in place because it is still not operational. Is that correct? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  There are two projects. There was a project that started in 2015, before this Department was set up. It was intended to upgrade the software that supports the SUSI application system. When this Department was established, we reviewed that project and looked at the possibility of success. In 2021, the Department took the decision that the project should be concluded or brought to an end. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  How much did the Department spend on that project? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  My understanding is that the expenditure on the project was about \u20ac3.8 million----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  That is completely gone now. That project is null and void. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  -----of which approximately \u20ac1.15 million has no enduring value. Some of the work would have a value that can be brought into subsequent development. About 115,000 people apply to SUSI every year within a very condensed period, so it is important that we have the best possible system through which people can apply. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  Still and all, the \u20ac3.8 million is gone. That system is no good. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  Of the \u20ac3.8 million, the view is that approximately \u20ac1.15 million----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  The \u20ac3.8 million has been spent. It is gone. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  No, Deputy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  That system is no good. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  My understanding is that of the \u20ac3.8 million, \u20ac1.15 million has no enduring value.  The balance is something that can be built on. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  Did anybody seek assistance from any wing of government in relation to support to get an IT system that actually worked instead of wasting \u20ac3.8 million? Was there anybody from any Department? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  I will ask my colleague Mr. Moynes who is more familiar with the history of this. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  We seem to be running into this issue quite a bit, where IT systems are being purchased within Departments and then they do not work. How does this work? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  From the files, it was clear there were a number of interventions made over the course of the programme. It was clear, when we took over the programme, that those interventions had limited likelihood of success. The project was terminated on the basis that an independent review would be done to identify what had gone wrong and what needed to be done. There were interventions made and in the current project, there has been significant improvements made, including----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  Before we spend that money on the current project as well, is there a computer programmer or software developer or anybody coming from that wing of government to ensure that these projects actually work and they work for what they are designed to do? Every time a Department comes in, there seems to be an issue with IT. We are spending vast amounts like \u20ac3.8 million on a system and we are now starting another system. This seems to be an ongoing issue. Is there a computer programmer of software developer who goes to these meetings when these IT systems are being discussed and requested? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  We have assigned a project manager at principal officer level from the Government's ICT leaders panel. There is a programme manager put in and there is also an assistant principal put in. It is also being routed through the peer review. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  Why are the systems not working then if there is an ICT manager there? Why are none of these systems working in any of the Departments and vast amounts of money being wasted? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  I cannot speak to the other Departments, but for this project, the work that is being done now reflects what the independent review said. What the independent review said was you need to scope it out properly, you need to resource it properly and you need to do that upfront. One of the learnings from the last project that did not yield success was that it was not set up for success. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  Was there a computer programmer or software developer ----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  We are way over time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  ----- in that meeting when that project was being discussed at the start? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  For the last one, there would have been----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  Mr. Moynes feels they are doing their job----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Sorry, Deputy, but you may have a chance to come back in. Mr. Moynes may make a concluding comment if he wishes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  A huge amount of work has been done to learn from what went wrong. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  A huge amount of work----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I am sorry, Deputy, let Mr. Moynes finish and we have to move on then. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  There was an independent review done and we are absolutely rigorously implementing what was learned. The key part was to get it right before going to procurement and to get all the resourcing and all the scoping done before going to procurement. If there are lessons to be learned, it is there rather than embarking on a project. That is the best likelihood of success. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I know I took a little bit of Deputy Bennett's time but I was more than lenient. Deputy McGrath is next. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  I thank everyone for being here. I am going to start with the Skillnet Ireland issue again to get a full understanding of that. The National Training Fund funds Skillnet Ireland to the tune of over \u20ac50 million per annum. I want to tease out the business networks that operate around the country. How many of these business networks are there in total? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  We have what we would regard as 68 business networks and then we have five national schemes so we have 73 in total. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  Can Mr. Jordan help me understand in terms of the contracting organisations versus the business networks? Does that mean there are that number of contracting organisations? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  No. That is a good question. We have 57 industry bodies promoting these Skillnet networks and national initiatives. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  Does that mean some contracting organisations are across a number of networks? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  That is right, yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  In terms of the one that is in focus here in the context of the allegations, was it across a number of networks or just one? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  Part of my goal here is to try my best not to make them identifiable. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  I understand. The question is: were they involved in one network or multiple networks? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  It was more than one. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  It was more than one. I know Mr. Jordan is being cautious in terms of identification but how long were they working with Skillnet? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  They were working with Skillnet since around 2015. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  In terms of the large number of networks and contracting organisations, this particular one highlights a complete lack of control in the operation of the overall system. Serious allegations were made and no referrals were made to An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, Revenue or the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement. How confident is Mr. Jordan that there are no other contracting organisations where similar issues could be arising on a daily basis? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  We have a very robust and comprehensive governance process within the organisation. In this situation, some of the challenges existed around demand from industry and particularly the sector. It was a little bit akin to there being a gap in the market, but was there a market in the gap? We found that the traction with industry was not where it needed to be. We also uncovered, as the organisation looked to scale, that there were some operational challenges as well. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  Mr. Jordan said there was strong governance and so on but the proof in the pudding shows there was not strong governance. There were serious allegations made, some of which have been upheld. Now referrals have been made to enforcement agencies such as An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. There was a serious breakdown of governance in this particular case. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  Our governance process did identify issues with the organisation and we were working through those. The matters that have been referred----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  But a protected disclosure was made. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  There was indeed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  Was it Skillnet Ireland or was it the protected disclosure that highlighted these issues? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  In the first instance, we had identified challenges with the organisation subsequent to any protected disclosure we received. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  Just to clarify, if there was never a disclosure, would these issues have come to light? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  Yes, they would have come to light through our governance process. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  Did Skillnet have a spotlight on these issues? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  Yes. Just to clarify, the matters that have been referred onward are not necessarily related to Skillnet Ireland funding. They are more about themes around data protection and VAT. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  How confident can we be that these issues are not replicated across the network base? We are at a stage where this particular contracting organisation effectively refused to engage. It sounds as if the relationship there was quite poor, to say the least. What does that say in terms of the other organisations? How confident can we be that there are not further issues? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  I am very confident in our governance process, our ability to identify any challenges and the strengthening initiative we put in place. We have also been in operation for 27 years very successfully. This is really an anomaly for the organisation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  Does Mr. Jordan see potential criminal proceedings taking place? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  That is a matter for the authorities to determine. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  Were the matters referred of a serious nature? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  They were of a nature that Skillnet Ireland was unable to investigate. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  Effectively, they required law enforcement. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  They required powers beyond what we have to investigate. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  I thank Mr. Jordan for his answers and I know he is being careful in terms of the ongoing investigations.  Turning to the Department, two IT projects were mentioned. Can the Department briefly clarify the two projects? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  We have over 116,000 people who apply for these grants so it is very important we have a functioning, operating grant application system that people can navigate so the maximum number of people can qualify for grants as possible. There was a project. It did not succeed. Mr. Moynes has explained some of the reasons it has not succeeded but we have to have a system, so we have had to go back and look at taking the lessons learned. We have a project which we call My SUSI which is to develop the grant application system to a modern standard, to make sure it is robust and to make sure----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  What stage is that system at? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  We are going to tender for somebody to develop the system. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  This is the system overseen by the City of Dublin Education and Training Board, CDETB? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  It will again be the body involved. The CDETB is essentially our agent. It operates SUSI. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  Am I correct in saying that project was initiated in 2015? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  No. I am sorry if I am not being clear, but there are two projects. One was initiated in 2015 and has been cancelled. We are now in the process of initiating a subsequent project, learning the lessons from the previous one and taking it forward because we have----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  I want to clarify something Deputy Bennett focused on. What was the amount of money lost on the initial project? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  In terms of the initial project, \u20ac3.8 million was spent. Of that, \u20ac1.15 million was deemed not to have enduring value. Some of the work done on the previous project has enduring value which can be transferred to the subsequent project, but \u20ac1.15 million is deemed not to be of any value. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  Who determined the \u20ac1.15 million figure? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  As far as I know, it was the CDETB. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  It was in the CDETB accounts. The CDETB made an assessment of what had enduring value and what did not. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  Was there any interrogation by the Department of the CDETB in respect of that matter? Was it just accepted at face value that it was \u20ac1.15 million as opposed to \u20ac2.5 million that was effectively wasted on the project? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  We have to take at face value what it discloses in the accounts. We certainly have been pushing to ensure that the maximum utility was gained from the project. The piece that is deemed of no enduring value was the specific codebase and the coding that was done. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  That part of it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  The other pieces were the organisational development and transformation elements. They were regarded as being of enduring value. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  Are we now at an overall cost of \u20ac6.4 million on this? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  If you take the two projects cumulatively, yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  Where does Mr. Moynes see the overall cost landing ultimately before this system becomes operational? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  I have to be very careful here. We are about to go to procurement, and I do not want to give a figure. When that phase is done, I am happy for us to come back to the committee but----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  What is budgeted for this project? Do we have a ballpark figure for the overall cost? I understand the point about the tender process, but I am asking for a ballpark figure. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  There is a draft business case that contains a draft assessment budget. When that is finalised after the current phase of discovery, it will be what we go to procurement with. There is a budget. I would prefer to wait until the procurement is done to disclose more about that in order that we secure maximum value. There is a budget----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  We are \u20ac6.4 million in and Mr. Moynes is not prepared to give a figure, to the nearest \u20ac5 million, as to how much this will cost. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  I need to be very careful, because we need to secure maximum value. I do not want the figure to be used as a target by suppliers. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  When do we hope to have the system fully operational? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  Subject to the discovery phase, which is what we are in at the moment, being completed successfully, we will go to procurement. We hope to have the system operational in 2029. Because of the academic year, you have to hit----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  In effect, this project started in 2015, albeit under a different guise. It will be operational in 2029. That is 14 years for the development of an IT system. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  The first project did not yield a successful result so it had to be terminated. The alternative was to keep going with that. I do not think that would have been the right thing to do. By terminating----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  Is it not staggering that it will take 14 years to develop an IT system? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  Yes, it is very frustrating. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  With respect, we are not sending people to the moon here. We are developing an IT system. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  There is a great deal of complexity to it. That is what was found. The complexity was underestimated. What is taking the time in this phase is making sure that complexity is not underestimated and it has resourcing, scope and governance. The Deputy is absolutely right. I will not sit here and say that the Secretary General and I are happy about that. We are not, of course, but there is a reality to the current project that we have to get it right. That takes time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  I have a final question about student fees, which were reduced to \u20ac2,500 in budget 2026. Is the Department pushing for a further permanent reduction in student contribution fees in budget 2027? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  That is a political question. There is a commitment in the programme for Government, of which I am sure the Deputy is aware. I cannot really comment beyond that. The Minister has to weigh a number of matters in the Estimates process. It depends on the availability of resources. That is a policy problem which the Minister will have to address. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  I thank the witnesses. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  I thank all of the witnesses for being here. Deputy McGrath mentioned sending people to the moon. While the Department has a fairly wide remit, I do not think it includes sending people to the moon, but it probably has some research or science element for it in there. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  We recently sent up a satellite. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  I acknowledge the huge breadth of work that is done by the Department. I want to raise two issues which might be called matters arising from the committee's work. If these matters are not on the witnesses' immediate radar, they might come back to us in respect of them. The committee dealt with a discussion about the Dublin and D\u00fan Laoghaire ETB on a mindfulness trip to Aruba in the Caribbean that cost nearly \u20ac28,000. Are the witnesses familiar with that? I am sure they are. Do they have any response? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  We read the newspaper report. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  I would say it provided the witnesses with very little mindfulness. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  My understanding is that this is a European-funded programme with European rules. Part of that is there is a provision within those rules for an audit of that programme. That audit has not happened yet and it is still possible for that audit to take place and some of that funding to be withheld. The best thing is to allow that process to play out and then see what might happen on the foot of that audit. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  I do not think anybody on this committee expects people within the Department to even have line of sight on some of those matters. What often comes up at this committee is the idea of sanctions. If I move away from the specific and into the more general, how can the Department impose sanctions on organisations that operate under its remit in areas where it feels effective public spending or good value for money is not being achieved? These sort of stories undermine the confidence people have in the overall system. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  In that particular case, there is a provision for funding to be withheld. There is obviously a body for whom these people work which may have to consider what the outcome of that audit process is. On that one, that is where we will await developments. More generally speaking, we operate in a system where we have codes of governance. There is a code of practice for governance of State agencies. We apply that code. We operate on a basis that things occasionally go wrong. When they go wrong, we try to fix them or make sure they are fixed. When something is identified that requires an amendment of process, we amend that process. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  If the Department has any written policies in this area, Dr. O'Reardon might provide them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  Yes, but that is something you have to work on continuously. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  Of course. It is important that when there is a system in place, it catches those things that are unexpected. My second point comes from a conversation we had at one of our meetings regarding the Office of Public Works, the national children's science museum and the former UCD building in Earlsfort Terrace. I have a simple question. Has the Office of Public Works contacted Dr. O'Reardon's Department to seek for it to become the parent Department of that project? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  I met the chairman on foot of what was discussed at the committee's meeting on the matter. It had a public session with the chairman of the OPW and discussed the Comptroller and Auditor General's report into this issue. The chairman asked to meet me. Subsequent to that, he wrote to me and I have written back to him. That is simply to confirm that this is not a file that transferred to us when the Department was established and we do not have a budget for it. I think the committee knows that because it has discussed the matter at great length. My role here was to confirm that this was not something that transferred to us when we were established, nor do we have a budget for it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  It has been suggested that any Department that might want to see this completed would be pleased to be able do it by means of someone else's budget. As well as the construction and fit-out costs, there are also potential running costs. Can I clarify there is no area in the Department's budget for any element of that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  The Deputy absolutely can do so. There is not. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  I will move on to the My SUSI project.  Deputy McGrath asked some very interesting questions. It was stated that the alternative was to go ahead with a project that was not going to be completed. You might like to think that the alternative was to have planned it better in the beginning. Does Mr. Moynes believe there was expertise in the initial design and procurement? This is something we have seen across a range of Government Departments. There is not sufficient in-house expertise, or often when it is procured, it is not sufficient to identify what is actually needed and what a contract of this nature is. The idea of spending \u20ac1 million or \u20ac2 million on a project and not really knowing what you want or how you can get there is a significant issue and it is proving to be the case. Does Mr. Moynes believe it was the case in this situation that there was not sufficient knowledge? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  We did an independent review and that is what it found. I do not want to speak to the knowledge but what it certainly found was that the project was not conceived correctly. The first project was conceived, in the words of the independent review, as a technical upgrade. There was an underestimation of the complexity of the challenge. It was a transformation challenge that was seen as a technical upgrade. From that flowed, in particular, resourcing and all the rest. There is an adage - I think this is what the Deputy is getting at - that projects do not go wrong; they start wrong. When we look at the current project, that is where we are particularly focused, that before we go to procurement, to make sure we have everything. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  When was the first date that the Department was aware there was an issue with the My SUSI system? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  The previous project was called the integrated grants processing system, IGPS. We were established in the middle of 2020 and, in the handover, it was said there was a project that was ongoing and had not been going great. What we were told at the time was that there were a lot of good-faith efforts made to remediate and a lot of interventions made. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  The Department was informed by the City of Dublin Education and Training Board. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  Yes. We took over responsibility for it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  Mr. Moynes says the Department took over responsibility for it. My understanding was the separation of the Department into two Departments was a carve-up of what was already there. Are we talking about the same people who previously----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  No. At my level, I did not have responsibility for that in the Department of education. It was handed over to me. I took over in 2020. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  There was effectively a predecessor in the Department of education who was dealing with this project. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  Yes, and a huge effort had gone into remediating the project. What the independent review found was that you were trying to fix a problem where the problem had been in the scoping way back in the day. Good efforts were made to remediate. It is a hard decision to terminate. It is not something you would want to do, so I would not be critical of anyone not terminating before that because they were working the problem. It was clear from the independent review, when it was done, that the problem was in the conception. That is really difficult. When the problem was in the conception, you can throw all the interventions because that meant it was not resourced and thought about properly. Then the supplier would have struggled to implement the complexities.  To the wider point, I would agree around thinking about the conception of these projects and doing a lot of thought. My old man always says measure twice and cut once, and I think that is true for big projects like this. You have to get the concept and the planning right. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  Was there a chief technology officer, chief information officer or someone in CDETB who had direct responsibility for this? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  I do not know the exact configuration. I know the Department of education assigned someone to help remediate the project. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  Within the ETB, what department - I will not make it personal - or section was responsible for this project? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  I do not know the case for the previous project. I do know it for the current project. We put in, on foot of advice from the Office of the Government Chief Information Officer, OGCIO, a specific programme manager to hold----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  The programme manager is responsible to the Department. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  No, we took them off a panel and seconded them in. They are there to drive it and make sure that all the consultants who have that expertise are working for the benefit of the project. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  I will move on. There was a data breach in SUSI and it resulted in a fine of \u20ac125,000. Is Mr. Moynes confident that there are sufficient checks in place to ensure that another fine of that nature is not levied? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  Yes, it was significant. This is my recollection of this. I do not have a note on it in my file but my recollection is that this was at a time of significant disruption for SUSI but very significant efforts were put in to remediate. I can get the Deputy a note. I remember that, at the time, we got assurances about the work that had been done to strengthen data security and all that. I do not have it off the top of my head. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  Given the time, Mr. Moynes might provide us with a note on that. I appreciate that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  Absolutely. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  I thank the witnesses for coming before us. I want to focus in on what is happening in regard to Carlow College, which I assume the witnesses are aware of. There is a letter in The Irish Times today, which is quite impactful, by someone whose leaving certificate - in his own words - did not go the way he had hoped. He said:  What struck me most about the college was how personal it was. Students were not simply numbers on a register. Lecturers knew us, challenged us and took a genuine interest in how we were getting on. It was only later, when I moved on to postgraduate study elsewhere, that I realised how rare that experience had become.  Carlow College was, I think, first opened in the late 18th century. It is one of the oldest educational institutions in Ireland and now it is effectively closing down. Eighty-seven staff members are facing redundancy. There will not be any new students in Carlow College, as I understand it. Some existing students will be affected because they expected to do four-year degrees and come out with level 8 qualifications. They are now being told they will come out with level 7 and do one year less, effectively because of the wind-down of Carlow College. The assets, as I understand it, are going to be transferred to the South East Technological University, SETU. From what I can tell, effectively what has happened here is that there was a process towards a merger between Carlow College and the South East Technological University but that is not going ahead for some reason. Instead, Carlow College is being wound down, with the impacts on staff, students, the local community and so on. As a first question, is there anything I have wrong there in regard to the assessment I have got? We will start there. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  The first thing to say is that Carlow College is a private college. It is not part of the State system but there are students in there who are funded under the free fees scheme. Starting where the Deputy started, our first concern has to be around students who are undertaking courses and that they are looked after, allowed to finish their studies and so on. There is obviously a staff cohort and it also comprises a building that is quite significant in the town of Carlow in terms of the way that town operates. For that building to, for example, be left empty would be a concern.  The concern has been to find a solution for Carlow College but it is a private entity. The one thing I would say, and I do not think we were ever clear on this, is that we were looking for a solution but I do not think that solution was necessarily going to be a merger, particularly because this was an entity that was experiencing significant financial difficulties. We have to try to protect the students. We would be concerned about the staff and we have to protect the taxpayer. A solution has been found that is being described as the \"teach out\" solution, which means that of those who are currently in Carlow, the students can continue their courses. There will be a transfer of the property and assets into SETU, and then there will be a process of trying to work through how many of the staff can be transferred into SETU. The aim here is to try to, as far as possible, protect the learners and see what can be done as far as possible for the staff. I do not think the word \"merger\" is one that was necessarily the only way. There was a number of different ways this could be characterised, and that is the aim. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  Was it accurate at one stage? Dr. O'Reardon is saying it is not accurate that there was a merger ever really on the table here. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  I would not say that. I think there were a number of options being looked at. It has been a looked at for a considerable period of time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  Let me put it this way. When did the Department become aware that a merger was not going to happen? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  I would like Mr. Moynes to take the Deputy through the detail there. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  As far back as 2022, the Department advised Carlow College - which is a private, church-run entity - that its continuing deficit position would make it very challenging for an integration into SETU to take place. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  Okay. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  We advised it that if that was its preferred option, then steps should be taken to address that situation.  There has been a lot of engagement over the period. In the most recent set of intensive engagement, we were advised by Carlow College that it did not have the money to operate as a going concern and so the Department sought to engage all the stakeholders to broker a solution that would protect the students. The Department did the best deal possible for staff in the circumstances, which also had the buildings of Carlow College as an enduring asset to be used for Carlow. It was a very challenging position but we were very clear all along that the State could not nationalise the deficits of a private entity. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  Am I right that in the planned process of winding down Carlow College, extra public money will be provided? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  There is an asset, which is the buildings. That has a valuation attached to it. The State is essentially acquiring that asset on the basis that those funds can be used in particular to look after the staff in terms of redundancy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  The State has taken an active interest in this, as it should. Why have the State and the Department accepted a situation where 87 workers will be made redundant as opposed to seeing them integrated or given the choice of being integrated into SETU? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  It is not necessarily the case that 87 people will be made redundant. There is potential for some of those staff to move into SETU and Mr. Moynes will talk about how will work. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  By virtue of growth in SETU there will be opportunities for open competitions. We were challenged in terms of managing public finances in that there was an asset that had a value attached to it. Going beyond that, especially in a situation where we advised that private entity that it was operating unsustainably and if it did not bring its operations into a sustainable basis then it would be very challenging to operate any sort of merger. I think we would be at this committee, on the contrary, being asking why did we spend more than the valuation of the asset. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  Has the Department conducted an assessment of the relative cost of the closure and funding of redundancies versus a TUPE transfer to SETU of the workers? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  My understanding is that SETU did do that. Understandably, it would have resulted in enduring current costs that are not in scope of our Department. We do not have the budget for the enduring costs of taking on staff from the private sector and putting them on the State's books. The Minister and the Department were both exercised to ensure that students, staff and the building were looked after. If there was another solution that could have had those staff transferred then that would have been our preferred option.  In other circumstances, times and places where there has been transfers, such as St. Angela's College in Sligo, the financial operating position of the private entity was a much stronger proposition and so it was able to effectively wash its face. In this case, Carlow College has operated in a deficit position for a very substantial period and we did not see a basis for us to essentially nationalise the deficit and take on those staff. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  There is a memorandum of understanding between SETU and Carlow College. Does it involve the Department? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  It does not. The Department is not a party to it but we are funding the purchase, which underpins the memorandum. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  Can the memorandum be provided to the committee? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  I do not know but I will check. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  Does the Department has it? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  We have it. I do not have a problem sharing it, Deputy. Since we are not a party to it, however, I will check. I cannot see why it could not be shared but I will check. There might be a timing issue in its sharing but, in principle, I do not see a reason why it could not be shared. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  I would be grateful if that could be done. It would be great.  In terms of the Department's assessment of this and the relationship between Carlow College and SETU, was there any point at which the Department thought that this would be a TUPE-type transfer of workers with existing rights, etc? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  We certainly contemplated that. We were not taking a principled position against this. In any circumstances like that we must be mindful of the public finances and Exchequer resources. If there was a scenario where that could have been done, where the college had been in a surplus position and there was assurance that this would continue, then we would not have had an objection to a TUPE-type scenario. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  When did the Department decide that this would not happen? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  When it became clear, notwithstanding that the Department had on a very significant number of occasions advised Carlow College that if it did not get its finances in order and it became gradually more obvious. We were still open to looking at all options. It is really only in the past number of months where it became very evident that the finances were such that it was not an option, that we engaged in a process to secure the best possible deal. In fairness to Carlow College and SETU, the interests of those workers were very much to the fore. That is why the State is underpinning this with a property purchase that would allow more favourable conditions. The alternative to the intervention between the memorandum of understanding and the purchase of the site would be a disorderly wind-down now with staff losing their jobs, probably this week. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  Earlier the committee discussed the children's science museum. Has the Department responded to the OPW's letter that asked if it was interested in being the sponsoring Department? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  Yes. I wrote back to Mr. Conlon, I think earlier this week. I am happy to give my letter to the Cathaoirleach if that is of any use. I simply said a couple of things. This is not a file or an issue that came to us when the Department was set up. We have no knowledge of the history of it. We have no budget for a capital expenditure or, indeed, as Deputy McAuliffe said, we have no budget for a current expenditure. That is as much as we really know about it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  The answer is \"No\". "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  The answer is \"No\". The answer to Mr. Conlon's letter is we have no money and it is not something that is in our plans. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  I have some questions for Skillnet. Is Skillnet still contracting with the organisation that refused to provide the documentation around the issues or did Skillnet terminate the contract? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  We ceased all funding at the end of 2024. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  I am glad to hear that. I assume that the contract with those contracting authorities or bodies now compels them to provide information to Skillnet in terms of investigations, etc? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  Yes, indeed. Our funding agreement has recently been strengthened. One of the learnings we have had from this is to make sure that we can compel co-operation going forward. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  Can I assume that the Secretary General can confirm that the only element redacted in this report is to conceal the identity of the whistleblower? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  Yes, and the entity, Deputy. Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  Chair, we must respect that because we do need to protect whistleblowers. Can the Secretary General confirm that is the only redacted element? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  Yes, Deputy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  That is the only thing and the committee needs to respect that or seek our own legal advice on it.  In terms of IT, the My SUSI project was a disaster. We, as a committee, repeatedly hear from people that they did not understand the complexity, etc. I appreciate that the witnesses are coming to us new but we hear this excuse every week. I understand that there is an ongoing IT project between EduCampus and HEAnet and a roll-out of IT services in universities. Will we see repeated issues or other IT issues with the deployment of that project or any other IT project? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  EduCampus and HEAnet are now an entity that rejoices in the name of Asiera. Asiera is a company that assists third level institutions with the procurement of IT projects. At present, it is something that is under the governance of the Department of Education and Youth but we anticipate taking over that governance.  As the Deputy has referred to, I do not think there is a manner in which you can guarantee you will never encounter difficulties with these things. The integrated grants processing system, IGPS, project, is the first project. We see IGPS and My SUSI as two separate things. The net point here is that, when the Department was established, it looked at the project and took the difficult decision to shut it down. The alternative was to allow the thing to get worse. The core lesson here is that, when you reach a point where you can see that something is not going to work, you have to decide whether to protect the taxpayer by shutting it down. In this circumstance, the answer was to do so. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  I suppose I am asking whether lessons have been learned or whether we are going to be here next year hearing that the Department did not appreciate the complexity or the scope and had to do X, Y and Z. It is becoming repetitive. Lessons are learned but nobody is ever held accountable and there are never any consequences. We are repeatedly told lessons have been learned but we do not see it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  Within the time available at this meeting, fairly detailed information has been provided about what this was, what happened and what lessons were learned. There is a report on the lessons learned. There is a whole series of documentation on ensuring those lessons feed into the next project. We may have supplied this to the committee already but I am very happy to supply a further note on the background. It is a complicated enough story but the net point is that a decision was made to end something that was failing, which I believe was the right decision, and an exercise was done to bring the lessons learned forward into the next piece. A series of changes have been made to the way in which the governance of My SUSI, the ongoing project, will operate. This includes the Department essentially becoming the co-sponsor of that project whereas previously it rested with the----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  I assume that every paper on lessons learned goes back to the Office of Government Procurement and the Office of the Government Chief Information Officer. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  That is a good question. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  Projects valued at more than \u20ac5 million have to go through that peer review process. On the wider point, the Deputy is absolutely right about how you embed lessons learned. As the Secretary General has said, we now co-chair this steering group. As a matter of course, we go back to the lessons learned report every couple of meetings and see whether we are doing what is set down in it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  I have three more things I want to get through and three minutes. With regard to Skillnet, are there any plans to make the Comptroller and Auditor General the auditor, considering that it is given \u20ac50 million in funds? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  I will be brief because the Deputy is under time pressure. The amount of money that goes through Skillnet has increased very substantially in the last few years, partly on foot of the Covid pandemic. I have taken the view that we need to review the corporate form of Skillnet in its entirety to address that question. My preference is for it to be audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General, but obviously that is a matter he would have to consider. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  Perhaps it should be put on a statutory footing. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  We have asked a former Secretary General of the Department of Social Protection to review the whole corporate form and to come up with a set of proposals. We will have to take these to the Minister. I am conscious of the Deputy's time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  I will move on but I think we would be positively disposed towards the Comptroller and Auditor General auditing an entity that receives such sizeable funds. I will be parochial for a second. There is an issue in relation to where SOLAS is housed in Balbriggan. The building where it has been housed is now going to house a special school. My understanding is that SOLAS is going to have to move out. Does the Department have a plan for this? Will it prioritise finding a home for SOLAS?  On the National Training Fund, we really need to prioritise critical skills to produce engineers, construction workers and medical professionals, including doctors, nurses and therapists. There is a hell of a lot of money in the NTF but we are not seeing priority being given to the skilled workers we badly need if we are to meet our goals across many sectors. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  On the NTF, as I have said, expenditure under the NTF comes under our expenditure ceiling, so this is essentially something we have to argue for in the Estimates, which we do. In 2025, we reached agreement on a \u20ac1.5 billion package. This will slow the rate of increase in the surplus. We have to go to Government on this as part of the Estimates process every year. We see significant demand for skills provision across the economy under practically every heading, including the area of industrial training and workplace training. It is a big policy area. The advent of AI will make it more and more salient. We are clear that there is strong demand for training in the workforce and for people preparing for the workforce. There are very wide-ranging demands. We have to make that case to Government in the Estimates process. We do that and will continue to do so. We are not short of ambition for expenditure under the NTF but the Department of public expenditure has a difficult job to do in maintaining fiscal discipline as well. Does Mr. Lemass have any update on the situation in Balbriggan? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Lemass","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Lemass  The situation in Balbriggan is that the Department approved the ETB to enter into negotiations with the vendor in July 2025. Those negotiations went on for almost a year. In May 2026, SOLAS notified us that the vendor had sold a part of the site to another interested party. We have asked SOLAS and the ETB to engage with the vendor to establish precisely what part of the site is being sold and what part remains. Critically----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  Is Mr. Lemass not thinking about the college in Swords? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Lemass","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Lemass  I am sorry. I had assumed that was the one the Deputy was asking about. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  No, I am asking about the SOLAS adult education facility at Castlelands in Balbriggan. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Lemass","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Lemass  I am sorry. I am not familiar with that one. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  The Secretary General might come back to me. This is a priority for me. We need the special school but we also need SOLAS adult education courses to continue to run in a suitable environment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  I absolutely accept that. We are conscious that the special school situation relates to a particularly critical need. Where we can, we try to facilitate our colleagues in the Department of education because we see this as a particularly sensitive issue. I will absolutely come back to the Deputy on the Balbriggan issue. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanna Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joanna Byrne  I will come back to the My SUSI IT project. I am sitting here listening to statements about lessons that have been learned and so on. This is not directly a reflection on the Department, although it is a contributor to the issue. Week in and week out, we hear about massive wastes of public money. We are 11 years on and have spent \u20ac6.4 million. We are at the business case stage rather than the procurement stage. It is hoped to have it operational by 2029. There has already been an independent review, although we do not know how much that cost. Despite all this, the Secretary General still cannot tell us today what the overall cost of this project might be. Has the Minister sanctioned a bottomless pit for this project? Have we learned nothing about governance? The Secretary General is sitting here in front of the Committee of Public Accounts and has admitted that \u20ac1.5 million of the \u20ac6.4 million spent has no enduring value but he cannot give us any definitive sight of what this might cost and when it will be implemented. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  Reflecting on some of the comments that Deputies have made, these are inherently risky and difficult projects. To be frank, if I was simply thinking about my own best interests, I would steer clear of all of these kinds of things because they are very risky and difficult and present these kinds of issues. However, we have to provide a system for people to apply for these grants. It is a very sensitive period in people's lives when they are applying for third level. They are wondering whether they are going to be able to get a grant, whether they will be able to navigate the system and whether they are going to be able to get all of the information needed. We have worked very hard to make it as easy as we can but we need a system that will work for students who are applying for grants. I do not see us as having any other option. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanna Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joanna Byrne  I accept that. What I am asking is how we can learn from this going forward. Dr. O'Reardon's contribution on this is probably invaluable to the work of the committee. As I have said, we see a common trend across all Government Departments in here week in and week out. The Secretary General himself has said it is an exceptionally risky avenue to go down.  Has that been relayed back to the Government directly? Is it listening and does it hear when that is said? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  To be fair to Ministers, they should be able to expect the public service to deliver IT projects. I am not sure I would bring the Minister into this. There is an element----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanna Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joanna Byrne  Who is accountable in the public service? If it is not the Minister and not the Government, who is accountable? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  We are trying to be as accountable as we possibly can. The Department and the Accounting Officer are accountable to the committee. The difficulty is that these things are inherently risky. We do our best to take on board whatever we have learned. Mr. Moynes has said that if you go back to the 2015 project, the lesson is to try to get the thing right at the get-go and have the right governance in place so you can pick up the project early. I was not in the Department, but I think the right decision was made. If a thing is not working, then stop it.  One of the Deputies raised the issue of skills, including IT skills, in government. We struggle to recruit people at the pay levels we have. I am not suggesting anything by that but getting the right skills in is an issue for us and that is something we work on continuously. However, it is a continuous battle. On this, we have done everything we possibly can to scope it properly and get the governance right. We have taken ownership of the governance, so we will have shared ownership with the ETB. However, these things still entail an element of risk. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanna Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joanna Byrne  I need to move on. Across the board, we see shortages of professionals in vital roles. We are potentially not providing enough third level places for people to train in these roles and upskill themselves. I will be a bit parochial and highlight dentists. My constituency office is constantly contacted by people who are signed up to the medical card scheme but cannot find a dentist to provide that care. The Irish Dental Association said recently in another committee something that it had been repeating for years, namely:  Ireland also faces a severe shortage of dental professionals. We estimate that we need at least 500 additional dentists across the public and private sectors to meet demand. We welcome the opening of the new RCSI dental school in Dublin, which will provide a very welcome increase in graduate capacity. The two dental schools in UCC and Trinity College graduate about 90 dentists annually but 50% are non-EEA students, most of whom return home, typically to Canada and the Far East and do not begin practice here in Ireland.  The Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland, RCSI, school of dentistry will graduate 75 new dentists after it opens next year. At current rates, without any increase in population, it will take a decade to catch up with what is needed. Dentists are probably just one example. I am sure this applies across many fields. How does the Department prioritise its spending and focus on delivering college places? This has to be asked. Is it to get as many international students as possible because they pay? Does it have a proper plan to address college placements for vital fields like dentistry and other areas for which we are nowhere near capacity? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  There are skills shortages across a range of professions, including dentistry, medical, nursing and a number of other allied health professions, particularly in areas that affect services for people with disabilities. The Government has been clear with us that we are being asked to take action to expand provision in a number of those areas. We do that through a process we call expressions of interest. We have gone out several times to the university system to ask it to come back to us with proposals on how to expand those types of placement. I will ask Mr. Moynes to talk about where we are with those. We have done a number of them and have one in process. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  Across medicine, pharmacy, disabilities and allied health, we have had between 40% and 100% increases in new entrant places. Those are new places that have been created. On dentistry, the Deputy mentioned the RCSI. We are engaging with UCC as well on those plans. We have one active and in consideration at the moment about increasing therapies. The Government is spending a lot of money and putting a lot of effort into identifying in a targeted way areas where we need to increase the skills provision exactly as the Deputy says. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanna Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joanna Byrne  Does Mr. Moynes accept that the experts in this field, in this example the Irish Dental Association, are giving us figures and statistics on what they need to meet the demand? I have outlined as starkly as I can that without any increase in population whatsoever, which is not going to happen, we are looking at a minimum of ten years to meet the current demand. Without spending money to identify the need, is the Department listening to the fields? Is it listening to the likes of the Irish Dental Association? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  Absolutely. This is mediated through the Departments, which engage with their sectoral bodies. We do a prioritisation exercise that reflects the competing priorities across multiple healthcare and other professions, including therapies, disabilities and children's mental health services. We go out to the system and ask what it is possible to provide. There is complexity to that. There are placement and funding constraints. Within all of those constraints, we absolutely listen to what is required. As the Deputy says, the demographics in the country mean that these pressures are going to increase. It is about continuously working to increase. The places have significantly increased across a range of professions in the past few years. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  We may be able to get the Deputy a table on that and on what we have done but there are two factors worth bearing in mind. One factor is that we have to look at new models. I would say that the RCSI model is training people to be community dentists. If the Deputy ever wants to look at it, it is a fascinating course and an excellent facility. It is up and running at the moment. We are looking at new models, particularly in the case of technological universities where we are setting up vet schools and pharmacy.  The second factor is that the rate limiting factor for us is often training places. If you are talking about a medical professional, the person has to train in a hospital or other healthcare or service setting. It can be really difficult to get the training places. That is one of the big problems we face. Funding is obviously always a problem, but it is something we have no difficulty prioritising. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanna Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joanna Byrne  I come back to the situation with Carlow College. Was an independent valuation conducted on the Carlow College land? What are the exact terms of agreement on transferring that asset over to SETU? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  There was an independent valuation, otherwise we would not be able to progress this. We have to be satisfied that the value of that asset essentially transferring into State ownership in the form of SETU merits any expenditure that might be spent on redundancies or other investment.  I apologise, but what was the second part of the question? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanna Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joanna Byrne  It was about the exact terms of the agreement. Are those published? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  I think we said we would try to get those for the committee if we were allowed to and I do not see why we would not. We will certainly give that to the committee if we can. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanna Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joanna Byrne  It would be helpful if the witness could. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  We will now take a short break. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Sitting suspended at 12.38 p.m. and resumed at 12.56 p.m. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  I thank the witnesses. In the whole area of college fees it would be fair to say there has been uncertainty and some degree of mixed messaging on whether there is going to be enough money in the kitty to ensure that parents or students themselves will not have to pay full allocation or that the subsidies for registration fees will remain. What does Dr. O'Reardon see as the trade-offs coming into the next budgetary cycle between the expenditures the Department currently has and future expenditures? I notice the increase in the number of students enrolling in the system. What does Dr. O'Reardon see as the trade-offs on these fiscal questions? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  There are always trade-offs. There is a commitment in the programme for Government to try to reduce the student contribution. There are always going to be trade-offs. This is an issue the Minister will have to address in the context of the Estimates campaign that happens every year.  Government has fiscal parameters. We have to work within our expenditure ceiling, or whatever expenditure ceiling is given to us in the context of the budget. It is something the Minister has to seek to prioritise. There is a range of issues in the Department where we look at core funding for universities and paying pensions throughout the whole system, and funding for apprenticeships and further education and training. Across all of the Vote, as we set out at the beginning, there is a wide range of demands, and every Minister in the context of every Estimates campaign has to weigh up those balances.  There is always an element of working out what it is going to require to keep services, so what we would previously have called existing level of service, ELS, is generally to try to work out what it would cost on a no-policy-change basis to keep the system going as it is. We look at what priorities there might be for new developments. All those things are generally played out in the Estimates campaign. The Minister has to engage with Department of public expenditure and the Minister for public expenditure and those kinds of trade-offs and political decisions have to be made. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  In practical terms, will Dr. O'Reardon give us a bit of insight? How does that work between Dr. O'Reardon, the Secretary General and Accounting Officer for the Department, and the Minister directing Government policy? How does that work in terms of an issue that is significant or perhaps politically controversial, whatever way you want to describe it? Obviously on a day-to-day operational basis, there are all Dr. O'Reardon's officials. There will be a new Minister in the future. There was a Minister before this one. Dr. O'Reardon is potentially dealing with the demand side a lot of the time, third level institutions and all of the various programmes which are funded. How does that work in terms of the differences between Dr. O'Reardon\u2019s direction and those of the Minister? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  These are decisions for Ministers and Government. Our job is to support the Minister and give him the best available information. We tend to think about the ELS and what it will cost to run on a no-policy-change basis into 2027. We do our best to look at the kinds of components of that and what kind of pay and numbers costs are likely to arise in the context of going into 2027.  At this stage of the year, we are typically looking at what the existing levels of service, ELS, situation is. We will engage with our colleagues in the Department of public expenditure around trying to understand any pressures which are emerging in the system and then we will talk to the Minister about any priorities for developments or new initiatives he might have.  The Deputy referred particularly to the issue of student contributions. The Minister will talk to us about the issues he wants to develop, we will look at costings and then he will make an Estimates bid into the Department of public expenditure. Typically, that is something that usually happens in September in the run in to the budget. Usually, there are a number of political-level engagements and our job is to support our Minister, just as our colleagues in the Department of public expenditure support their Minister in that engagement. Ultimately, the Minister for public expenditure and reform will make a decision around what he is prepared to agree. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  One thing that has been pledged \u2013 I suppose it is a new spend, but I do not know how much \u2013 is the establishment of a critical skills observatory in the whole area of AI. Where is that at as an entity? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  There is a little potential for confusion. We are establishing a national skills observatory, which will include looking at skills needs. Other Deputies have raised issues around a number of different skills areas. We are trying to get to a point where we are improving our analysis of skills needs across the economy. That is essentially building out a unit that exists in SOLAS and expanding its capacity. We are just about to be in recruitment there. The Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment is leading out on the AI observatory but there is a separate, wider issue as regards AI. Our particular focus there is on skills. The methodologies that are available to us now to examine supply and demand of skills have improved quite significantly in recent years, so we are trying to incorporate that within the unit in SOLAS to make sure that we are using the most advanced methods available to us. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  What is the unit that currently exists in SOLAS? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  I will ask my colleague to fill in the Deputy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Fiona O'Byrne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Fiona O'Byrne  It is called the skills and labour market research unit, the SLMRU. The national skills observatory will evolve out of that and build on that unit. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Will it get more money than it currently has? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Fiona O'Byrne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Fiona O'Byrne  The intent is to expand the money and staffing of that unit. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Will it be a stand-alone separate entity? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Fiona O'Byrne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Fiona O'Byrne  No, it will form part of SOLAS. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  What kind of information will this new entity give that the current one does not? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Fiona O'Byrne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Fiona O'Byrne  As the Secretary General said, it is about being more sophisticated in the analysis that is there. The big publication at the moment from the SLMRU is the national skills bulletin, which is published annually. There is lots of very useful and helpful data. We would like to move towards a more dynamic system. There are lots of tools around scraping LinkedIn or Indeed, for example, and understanding more about what is happening in the space of skills and how they are evolving. There is also a piece around bringing together analysis done by other entities such as the Central Statistics Office, CSO, and the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, and bringing those data sources together to be more impactful. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Is there a firm date for when the national skills observatory will be up and running? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Fiona O'Byrne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Fiona O'Byrne  We do not have a date yet. SOLAS is about to kick off the recruitment process and would expect people in place by the end of the year. That is what we are looking at at the moment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  I will raise the Skillnet governance issue briefly. I know it was teased out before I was here. I am familiar with the timelines of the investigations, the protected disclosures and what has been said in relation to ongoing live investigations that the Secretary General needs to be careful about. I fully get all of that. However, in hindsight, as the investigation evolved and things were emerging, were there moments when funding should have been brought to a halt? Looking back, have lessons been learned about how governance investigations are done and how funding decisions are made? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  The whole process should have been done more quickly and Skillnet has acknowledged that. It has also made the point that it ceased funding to the entity concerned at, I believe, the end of 2024. Its relationship with that entity has been wrapped up and no more money is due from that entity to Skillnet. Essentially, the moneys concerned have been covered.  Going back to the point, I think this was a pretty complex protected disclosure. We have a tendency to be biased in favour of protecting the discloser and protecting the whistleblower, so the process can become quite elaborate. This was the first protected disclosure that Skillnet had experienced. The lesson to learn from that is these things need to be expedited in terms of how they move on. In this case, the relationship was brought to an end and any moneys were recovered. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  The Secretary General of the Department of public expenditure and reform was here last week. He took the view that he did not see a value-for-money case in the national children\u2019s science centre. That is how I interpreted what he said, at least. The OPW wrote to three Departments, including further and higher education. Dr. O\u2019Reardon has already given some response to that or the letter has now been responded to. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Does the Dr. O\u2019Reardon share the view on the value-for-money piece? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  We have no relationship with this project. It did not come to us when the Department was set up. I do not have a view on the merits of the project. I met the OPW chairman on foot of his meeting with this committee. He then wrote to me and I wrote back to him. What I said was we did not have a relationship with this project, it did not come to us when the Department was set up, and we did not have a budget for capital or current. I do not have a view on the merits of the project per se as to whether it is a good thing. What I would say is that, on foot of the issues set out in the Comptroller and Auditor General\u2019s report, if somebody takes this on, they would have significant governance and value-for-money issues that they would have to think about. That is not me saying there is a value-for-money issue with the project per se or whether it is a good thing or a bad thing, but given the history of it and the legalistic nature of it, as an Accounting Officer you would have a set of concerns that you would have to work through because of the nature of where it is now positioned. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Are those accounting concerns directly arising from the legalistic nature of the process insurmountable? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  I am not close enough to know. However, the Deputy is right. Again, I am only speaking about what I read in the Comptroller and Auditor General\u2019s report, but it was a very comprehensive document. I had a brief conversation with Mr. Conlon about it. That it is in such a legalistic position would create a difficulty. It is a very unusual place to find yourself. Most of our aegis bodies we have relationships with are not in that kind of legalistic situation. That would create a set of concerns from an Accounting Officer perspective. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  What would have to take place to overcome those concerns? Would it have to remove itself from the legalistic process and almost start afresh with an understanding? Is there some sort of parallel process to the legalistic process that it could engage in that might then put it into a normal type of process like those of partners that make applications every day of the week? Would that make it less of a risk from an Accounting Officer perspective? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  Again, not knowing the details but in the spirit in which the Deputy asked the question, I would have thought that would make matters much easier. If you have to have a dialogue with a body like that where you are having to communicate between lawyers, that will make the transaction cost quite difficult and presents the Accounting Officer with a number of emerging problems. The Deputy's suggestion would probably be of assistance. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I have a number of questions. Aruba was raised earlier.  It is an issue I raised several weeks ago on foot of a media report. It is quite concerning. It does not represent value for money. Does the Department think it represents value for money? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  No. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Would the Secretary General be authorising anyone in the Department to go on that mindfulness exercise to Aruba? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  I think we could safely say that would not be at the top of my list. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Does the Secretary General think it represents value for money? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  I honestly do not know. It does not strike me as something I would send a civil servant on. I will say one thing, if the Cathaoirleach does not mind. I am sure he will agree with me on this. Erasmus+ is a very good programme and it sends a lot of people on very good things. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I am not questioning that. I just want to establish the situation. From my perspective, it is not value for money. The committee has written to the Dublin and D\u00fan Laoghaire Education and Training Board, DDLETB. We are due to get a response from the board regarding our concerns. Has the Department written to DDLETB to raise any concerns? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  I might just ask Mr. Beausang to come in on this point. L\u00e9argas is an aegis body of the Department, so the people providing the funding - L\u00e9argas - sit under us. On foot of the media report, we have asked for more information as to what has happened here. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Has the Department received that information? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  I will let Mr. Beausang speak to that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. William Beausang","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. William Beausang  I am not being particularly circumspect about this, but the position is that L\u00e9argas will be carrying out an assessment of the plan that DDLETB submitted and on the basis of which this visit was funded. As the Secretary General outlined earlier, L\u00e9argas holds back 20% anyway on the basis of the quantitative and qualitative assessment it carries out of the plan, which is encompassing. It is not just looking specifically at this; it is looking at everything that the ETB was funded for under its plan under this programme. L\u00e9argas has an authority to withhold funding or to clawback funding. The Cathaoirleach will understand that we do not want to insert ourselves in that process. The plan has not been submitted. It will have to be reviewed. An assessment will need to be made. In respect of whether the Department will articulate a view or get close to this issue, if it were an adverse decision, then there is, potentially, a risk of that being challenged and there being legal action somewhere. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  The Department might keep the committee updated when L\u00e9argas has responded. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. William Beausang","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. William Beausang  We have information from L\u00e9argas. I do not know if the committee has contacted it. If the committee wants information from us----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  The Department might furnish us with it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. William Beausang","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. William Beausang  -----we can certainly supply it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I appreciate that. I want to move to Skillnet and the issues identified therein by the Comptroller and Auditor General. Mr. Jordan gave a figure earlier for the number of networks currently out there. What was that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  It is 73. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Funding has now stopped for one of those networks. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  It is for more than one of the networks and schemes that were being promoted by the organisation in question. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Reference was made to a protected disclosure made in 2023. What date was it in 2023? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  It was originally received as a complaint in September 2023. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Was it a complaint or a protected disclosure? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  It was originally received as a complaint and then it was assigned to us as a protected disclosure by the Office of the Protected Disclosures Commissioner, OPDC, in December 2023. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  It is critically important to protect the person who made the protected disclosure, and I am conscious that a number of investigations are ongoing. Which network did the allegations revolve around? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  A Chathaoirligh, I cannot discuss or identify the exact network. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Okay. Was it a sustainable network? I am not identifying anyone. I am just asking for a \"Yes\" or \"No\" answer. Was it the sustainable network? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  I am not really in a position to confirm or deny that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I am asking Mr. Jordan to do so. It does not identify the person or persons in relation to whom complaints or allegations have been made, and neither does it identify the person who made the protected disclosure. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  I completely understand that. I would like to help the committee as much as I can, but it is just that the guidance and advice I have been given is not to discuss any specifics around either the reporting person or the organisation involved. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Okay. The information I have is that it was a sustainable Skillnet network. Can Mr. Jordan give us information in relation to the ongoing Garda, Revenue and other investigations? What is their status? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  The awareness I have is that they are all still open. I do not have any more details. I have been advised by the Garda that I would be notified if there were any specific questions or if the----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  When was the last communication with the Garda in relation to this matter? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  At this point, it was probably about six to eight weeks ago. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  In relation to the network in which the protected disclosure was made, Mr. Jordan made reference earlier to an individual or individuals who may be involved in other networks. I suppose these are individuals who were captured within this protected disclosure. Had they been previously engaged in other companies or as providers for Skillnet? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  The protected disclosure was focused on one particular organisation. That organisation was a legal entity promoting more than one Skillnet network. We had no other knowledge of any protected disclosures in relation to that organisation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  In relation to the investigation on foot of the protected disclosure that Mr. Jordan says, ultimately, came to Skillnet in December 2023, I thought it was in October that the protected disclosure came to Skillnet. Can Mr. Jordan clarify that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  Yes. I beg the Cathaoirleach's pardon if I have----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Mr. Jordan can get the information and come back to me on this point. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  It was actually in December 2023 that it was assigned to us. We were assigned as the other suitable person by the OPDC. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  At what stage was RSM engaged to carry out the investigation? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  Initially, we engaged with the disclosure in terms of scoping and building out terms of reference. We worked with Raiseaconcern. We then tendered in July and appointed RSM in October 2024. It commenced work on the investigation in November 2024. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  It was a year after the receipt of the protected disclosure that the formal investigation started. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  Indeed, yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Mr. Jordan earlier made reference, irrespective of whether a protected disclosure came in or not, to being on top of the issues and that they had been identified. How were they identified and what issues had been identified within this network? What action had been taken? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  The issues were twofold. One was in relation to market demand and performance. This is an issue where we do not see expenditure, so, therefore, the organisation is not expending the funds and not attracting income and the activity and key performance indicators are not being delivered. The other issue was around what we would describe as management capability and overall governance. We were concerned with some of the issues we were seeing from our close, day-to-day monitoring, in terms of the reporting of transactions and the type of programmes and initiatives being delivered. That was caught within our own governance processes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  What action was taken? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  We intensified the----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I am sorry. On what date or when were those issues identified? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  Let me just get the precise dates. That was in the second quarter of 2023. We started uncovering and identifying problems there. We intensified the work we were doing and the engagement. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  It was in the second quarter. What month was it, or do we have that information? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  I would estimate it was somewhere around the April or May timeframe of 2023. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  It kind of coincides with when the complaint, as Mr. Jordan described it, as opposed to a protected disclosure, was first made. In respect of the issues identified in that complaint, or protected disclosure, as I see it, would it be safe to say that the procedures within Skillnet were robust enough to identify them, or was it, ultimately, the whistleblower who brought those issues to light? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  Yes. It is a good question. I will clarify.  We had already identified issues in the April-May timeframe. The original complaint and protected disclosure were in September and December of that year. We were already intensifying our engagement. We were working with the organisation and in some cases we were suspending or withholding grant stage payments as well. We were making them contingent on certain criteria. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Mr. Jordan might provide us with a note on what grants had been suspended and withheld, and over what timeframe. Ultimately, as I see it, the contract was allowed to expire. Mr. Jordan might give us a figure on how much funding went into this particular network in the time between the protected disclosure being received and the concerns identified by Skillnet and late 2024, when the contract expired. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  Yes. I do not have that at my fingertips. If it is okay, we will write back to the committee. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Was it in excess of \u20ac1 million? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  No. It was nowhere near that amount at that time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Nowhere near that amount went in over a period of a year and half between the complaint being made in September and the contract expiring. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  We had reduced the funding to the organisation significantly at that point. I can get the Cathaoirleach the exact number. I do not have it off the top of my head. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Did that particular network have the ability to go outside to businesses and get additional funding? Was that within its remit? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  The premise of the Skillnet model is that any grant funding is co-financed by the private sector, by companies. That would be the operating model. Additional funding for the network would not be appropriate. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Does Mr. Jordan have any idea how much this particular sustainable Skillnet received in outside funding from companies? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  Is that in terms of matched funding? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  I would have to come back to the Cathaoirleach on the exact number. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Is Mr. Jordan aware of any money being repaid on foot of protected disclosures or investigations? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  No, because we have accounted for all of the private sector funding that was matched and there are no outliers there in respect of funds owed to either ourselves, which have all been recovered, or any funds to the private sector. The only amount outstanding did not attract any co-financing. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I have two concluding questions in relation to the person who made the protected disclosure under the Act. This person has to be kept informed of the process throughout. What engagement has taken place with the whistleblower? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  We engaged with the individual throughout the process and the person has been notified of the status at all stages of the investigation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  The individual has a full copy of the outcome of the investigation at this stage, as they are obliged to receive under the legislation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  The guidance we were given is that the report and details of the report are really only shared with the recipient and not with the reporter in terms of their entitlement. We clarified that both legally and with the Office of the Protected Disclosures Commissioner. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I find it unbelievable that it was only on foot of the C and AG that a redacted version of the final report went to the Department and that the Department still does not have the full report. I hear what the officials are saying in regard to protecting the identity of the individual but the entity itself is also redacted. I find it deeply concerning that there is withholding of critical information. The Department seems to be content with that. Do the witnesses share my concerns? The committee should also get a copy, even if it is of the redacted report. I put that to Mr. Jordan. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  We engaged intensely with our legal advisers, the Protected Disclosures Act, the Office of the Protected Disclosures Commissioner and the Department. The agreement was that an unredacted report would not be shared. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  What is the Department's perspective? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  Having read the document, I am satisfied that whatever actions need to be taken have been taken. Essentially, as I confirmed previously, all it does is redact information on identities. I am confident that, in terms of what needs to be done by Skillnet and referral to other authorities, that has been done. In a sense, I am satisfied. I would prefer if we could share this with the committee, frankly, but I had to go and get legal advice and I was told I could not because of the ongoing investigations. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I have a final question. It was mentioned earlier that this was the first protected disclosure that Skillnet had received. How long was the organisation in place at the point at which it received the----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  The relationship with Skillnet Ireland has been since approximately 2015. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  This was first protected disclosure. Had the Department received any protected disclosures in relation to Skillnet? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  Not that I am aware of. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank the witnesses for that. That concludes my questions for now. Deputies are fighting over who goes next. I call Deputy Farrelly. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  No, we are just checking. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  Deputy Farrelly let me go first but I said he could have it back. I am making sure I can have it back. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Keep it in Kildare, lads. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  I thank the witnesses for their time. To build on the Cathaoirleach's point, I have one follow-up question. The redacted report simply anonymises people. Nothing else is missing. Is that correct? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  The nature of redacted reports is that you are looking at a piece of paper that has black pieces in it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  Dr. O'Reardon just said that he is confident that all that is missing in the report is names. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  I am confident that it goes to some effort not to identify the person or the network. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  What is to stop that person or network reimagining themselves in a different entity and being under contract in Skillnet right now? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  Skillnet knows who the person is. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  Skillnet has the unredacted version and it can publish that with the committee. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  No, as we said, the advice we have been given, both by our own lawyers and the guidance----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  Can Skillnet provide the committee with the legal advice? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  Yes, of course. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  If Mr. Jordan could do that, that would be really helpful. It is to ensure we do not have a workaround here where that entity is being contracted by somebody else. That is great.  I am a very proud graduate of Carlow College. I was there for my undergraduate degree in 2008. Has Dr. O'Reardon been there? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  I have not been to Carlow College. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  Has Mr. Moynes been there? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  I have. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  It is a very special place. It is rich in heritage and culture. What I have noticed as a bystander since becoming an alumnus is the incredibly important work the college does in regard to the graduations, and not just specifically for social care workers. Very specifically, the CORU-accredited social care work programmes, which are right across a number of departments, provide a piece of essential infrastructure. To become CORU-accredited is really difficult. That is now going to be lost as a result of this.  The headlines at the radio station in Carlow have changed from the Minister welcoming the deal done between Carlow College and SETU to, most recently, the Minister welcoming a delegation from Carlow College to discuss this latest event. What does the Minister intend to do when he brings in that delegation from Carlow College? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  I do not think I can speak for the Minister. The Deputy referred to his pride in Carlow College. We have talked previously to other Deputies about the nature of the college. As the Deputy knows, it is a private entity. It is not part of the State system. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  Let us not rehash what has already been said. Specifically, why is the Minister now bringing in a delegation from Carlow College? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  I do not think it is unreasonable to expect that people would have concerns and questions when this kind of event takes place. There is a fairly significant transition going to take place in terms of the institution and the staff. There is a piece of work to be done here around communication. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  Why is it happening post event? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  I might bring Mr. Moynes in on this. This is essentially between SETU and Carlow College, with the Department trying to assist----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  Yes, but that is based on consistent warnings from the Department that it cannot continue to work. It is an agreement but it is on foot of warnings from the Department. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  I am not trying to distance the Department from it but I am saying there are responsibilities on SETU and Carlow College here. The staff are employed by Carlow College. In any kind of situation like that you would expect people to have a lot of questions and concerns, including very practical ones, but also the Deputy has referenced some of the emotional ones such as that attachment people have. There is a whole set of issues there and a communication task that is required. You would expect this in any situation when an entity is going through this kind of transition, whether it is a company, college or anything else. There is work to do here in terms of communication and that is the function of the meeting. I will let Mr. Moynes elaborate. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  If I can come back in, that very much appears to be an afterthought given the Minister has already welcomed the deal. That is done; the deal is done, and now the staff come after. Were the unions involved in any conversations in advance of the deal? Will Mr. Moynes give me a \"yes\" or \"no\" answer because I am short of time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  It is important to be very clear. The Minister is very clear in his communications that staff should be informed and consulted. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  Informed or consulted? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  I cannot remember the exact language used. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  They are two very different words. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  I do not want to misrepresent what was said. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  Mr. Moynes said, let us be very clear, and to inform and consult. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  The obligation is on Carlow College to engage with its staff. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  The Department has been sending them warning letter after warning letter saying they are not complying. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  To the management of Carlow College, and the Minister was clear that staff needed to be engaged with. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  A valuation has been done as part of the cost-benefit analysis of keeping Carlow College afloat. What is the valuation of the lands and buildings of Carlow College? How much is it? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  It is in the order of \u20ac6 million. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  Six million euro. Was that an independent valuation that was done? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  Of course, yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  Six million euro is what the Department or the State will gain from this. I assume it is intended that it be sold. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  No, it is intended that the site continue to be used by SETU for educational and research and purposes related to SETU's mission. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  How will that make it any more financially viable than what was happening? The staff have been an afterthought. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  There is an entity - an organisation - that is Carlow College that was operating in deficit. The buildings are effectively being acquired by the State and will transfer to SETU, which is the university that is in the south east. SETU will use the buildings for their purposes related to their educational and research mission. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  SETU will get a building but they do not get the staff and we do not know anything. Mr. Moynes said all staff will be available to apply for open competitions afterwards. That is not a transition. I can apply for those positions in the same way anybody else can. That is not a transition; that is just the open employment market. Those 87 staff are in the wind, in reality. It will be an open competition. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  They are employees of a private sector entity. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  Maybe this is a question for the Department of public expenditure. Has a business case been considered by SETU or the Department regarding the expected loss of social care worker graduates to the State when we have pretty much a recruitment and retention crisis ongoing in care settings? Has there been any work done that Mr. Moynes is aware of in regard to that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  Our expectation is that the system will respond to that and that other public sector entities, including SETU, will respond by growing their intake of social care workers given the particular need for them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  I do not understand. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  If there is a need for social care workers, then we would expect SETU to raise its intake of new entrants to social care programmes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  I assume then that if the quantity of social care graduates is to increase, the staff requirements will increase also and the first offer will go to the staff of Carlow College who are experts in the field and have been living and working in the area for generations. It would make sense that they get the first offer of those jobs, surely. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  Not first offer because it will be an open competition, but you would imagine they would have the skills and qualifications to compete successfully in those competitions. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  I still do not know why the Minister is bringing the staff in. The deal is done. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  The Minister is always available to hear messages. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  It is a meaningless activity. What outcome can there be if the deal is done? What can change right now? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  The staff----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  Will my pleas change what will happen? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  The staff asked to meet the Minister and he acceded to that request. I do not think that is unreasonable. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  I hope he sent the agenda that there is no point to this meeting if the deal is done.  Can I ask about ICT infrastructure? It was reported that a number of students in TU Dublin this year could not register for their courses. What happened? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  Does Mr. Moynes have more detail on that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  This is an ICT project run by TU Dublin, not by the Department, so it is different to My SUSI and we are not the sponsoring Department. Our understanding is that there were problems with the student records system. Quality and Qualifications Ireland, QQI, which is the State's quality assurance agency, has engaged with TU Dublin expressing its concerns about the system. TU Dublin will have to do a remediation to make sure students can register. I understand TU Dublin was engaging with students but clearly, more needs to be done by TU Dublin to get the student records system functioning. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  Did the Department fund that project? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  There was some funding given but the Department is not involved in the governance. The governance of the project is being run by TU Dublin. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  Is that appropriate? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  TU Dublin is an independent, autonomous institution. Governance of IT projects in the sector is done by the universities. My understanding is that TU Dublin sought clarification on whether there needed to be Department of public expenditure oversight and clarification was conveyed that it was not subject to Department of public expenditure oversight. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  Is this the same as the issues that are coming up in Galway? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  I do not know if the issues are the same but they are both complex IT systems that are experiencing issues. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  The State funds them but has no oversight. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  The State did not fund Galway. That was funded from Galway's resources. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  It was funded from Galway's resources. That is what I was trying to clarify. In terms of the Canvas Instructure hack, what universities were affected by that worldwide hack? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  We got a note on it. I cannot think of them off the top of my head but we can give the Deputy the information we have. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  Did the Department have any meetings with the Data Protection Commissioner or the Higher Education Authority, HEA? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  The obligation is on an institution to report to the National Cyber Security Centre and they also are obliged to report to the HEA when there are issues of major concern. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  The institution does not come through the Department, it goes straight to the----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  Sometimes we would be informed as a matter of courtesy but the governance relationship is to the HEA when issues arise and they are obliged to report issues to the National Cyber Security Centre. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  Does Mr. Moynes have any concerns about Blackboard, Moodle or any of these really important platforms that hold so much personal information? Is he confident they are secure? Is there any work being done in the Department on this? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  Cybersecurity is a major risk that all institutions would identify. Universities by their nature are open, as the Deputy said. Internationally, they are open systems where cyber has to be an issue. Each institution is responsible for its own cyber security and for deploying its resources in a way to make sure its data and infrastructure are secure from cyberattack. Undoubtedly, it is a major concern for all public institutions. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  I thank the witnesses for coming in today. I will change the topic. An issue came up that Mr. McCarthy may be able to clarify again. Was a sum of \u20ac427,000 written off by the Atlantic Technological University? It was a capital project. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy  It was the Galway campus. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  It was the Galway campus? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy  From memory----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  It was the Galway campus, but \u20ac427,000 was written off and we received quite a weak letter on it a few weeks ago because we looked for the detail on it. How do you spend \u20ac427,000 on a capital project and have absolutely zero to show for it at the end? Will the witnesses give us the details, now they are here? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  We have a note and a very large file on this. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  Give me a high-level, quick answer. How do you spend \u20ac427,000 on a capital project? I know Irish Rail spent \u20ac50 million and has nothing to show for that one but I am curious about the \u20ac427,000. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  To my knowledge, this was something the university was funding from its own resources. It had a project. It did a certain amount of design and architectural work. It decided not to proceed because, I think it might have been to do with Covid or something along those lines. A decision was made to stop the project. That is one of those situations where, again it is not something the Department would have an involvement with because----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  The Department does not have oversight. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  If it is their money----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  It is not their money; it is our money. It is all of our money. We pay all their contributions. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  I agree with that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  Is that part of the problem, that these people see it as their money and they are not responsible? Is that endemic to the State? A lot of people spending money on behalf of the State see it as their money and that they are not responsible or beholden to anybody else, least of all the taxpayer? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  They are accountable. There are systems of accountability within universities and they are accountable to their governing bodies. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  Was anyone challenged by the Department afterwards? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  I am not aware of us having done that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  Should they not have been? Should there not be reviews?  Was anybody found accountable? I will not ask if anybody lost their job. Was anybody challenged or, to use a better word, reprimanded over wasting \u20ac427,000? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  It was involving a student centre. There was a tender process in December 2022. The projected costs had increased significantly from what was originally intended to \u20ac18 million inclusive, and essentially the university decided, in the context of that cost, not to proceed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  So no one was reprimanded. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  Just to go back----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy  I would just like to comment on it. It certainly has happened in other third level institutions as well. I remember there was a building in Maynooth and also, I think, in UCD. I would not actually look on it as something that somebody was accountable for. It may be better sometimes, if circumstances change, that you stop a project rather than continue to spend more money. In 2022, if you recall, there was a very significant increase in the cost of construction. I think a number of colleges thought again about the affordability of projects that they had been intending to do. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  Do not get me wrong. I would prefer if Irish Rail had stopped at \u20ac427,000 too. I am not----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Just for clarity, we did discuss it. We asked for further information from Atlantic. They have sent us a letter with further information which is down for correspondence next week. Just to note that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  The initial correspondence was not good enough so we did go back and forth. If they are coming back again, that is grand. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  The HEA, which is the regulator here, is entitled to interrogate them on it and they are accountable to this committee. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  Yes, hence the reason. I do not mind asking. I have no problem. I think it is a very fair question.  To change topic, something we are very conscious of in this country is the trades gap. It became a huge topic just prior to my own generation going through college. We were all pushed through the university or college door into third level education. Some of the lads would have gone into trades in my time but that dropped off around the recession, I imagine. I am assuming that is probably when we saw the real drop-off. I am sure we have spent a lot of money, time and effort on trying to resolve that. Are we getting closer? Do the witnesses feel we are getting the percentages right, or do they have a defined percentage? What percentage of people would they say should be going down the trades route versus the university route, in an ideal world? Germany has different systems, including technological systems, as one goes through secondary school. Ireland does not have anything like that. I have no issue with it. What would be the right ratio? Is it 90:10? What is it at the moment? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  We have instruction from the Government to increase registrations, which are at about 9,500 a year at the moment, up to 12,500 a year. Our job is to develop the system. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  Is that in respect of 18-year-olds? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  That is anybody who wants to. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  Allowing for a mix. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  In theory it could be a graduate who wants to do an apprenticeship. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  I get that. That is a graduate coming off the other side. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  If I go to the Deputy's more macro point, we have been given direction by the Government to increase. I do not think I have a number in my head as to what the right number is. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  You mentioned an increase from 9,500 to 12,500. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  That is the instruction we have from the Government. We have done analysis of what is required to deliver infrastructure, housing and so on. We published a report which sets out the various skills needs to meet different infrastructure and housing targets. Part of that is to get to 12,500. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  What is the number doing the leaving certificate each year and coming into first year in college? It used to be around 60,000 or 70,000. Is it about the same? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  We are in the middle of a demographic increase. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  We are, and then we are going to come down again. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  In the 2030s. For the next number of years, we are going up. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  If it is about 70,000, and we are at 9,500, we are probably talking about 16% or 17%, give or take. The Department has been asked to bring about an increase of just over 30% from 9,000 to 12,500. Do we feel we will be able to get there? Is that up to what year? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  It is the target for the lifetime of the programme for Government. It is a demand-led scheme, so it requires people to want to do apprenticeships. It depends on the level of demand coming in. There is an element of that. Going back to the Deputy's bigger point, I think choice is important here. It is important that people continue to have the option. The Deputy has described a decision, when he encountered it. I think it is important that people have options to go to university or to do an apprenticeship, or even potentially in certain circumstances to do both. The issue for us is there is a significant demographic bulge going through the system at the moment. Demand for courses is heading up until around 2032. We are going to face continuous pressure on places over that period. Our concern is to make sure that people have options. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  How does the Department identify where there are specific gaps? In what areas are there specific gaps? Are there gaps in trades like plumbers? Where are the main gaps now and are there designated plans to fix them? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  Ms O'Byrne might like to speak to the Indecon report that we did. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Fiona O'Byrne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Fiona O'Byrne  We commissioned a substantial piece of work on the different professions and job roles required for delivery of infrastructure and identified what the gaps are. There are gaps across all of the major trades as well as across engineering. There are pressures across the system, as we were discussing earlier, and also in areas beyond construction, for example in healthcare. As the Secretary General described, we need demand from individuals who want to take up apprenticeships. There has been a range of campaigns promoting apprenticeships. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  Are they working? Have the officials noticed an uptick in the last year or two? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Fiona O'Byrne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Fiona O'Byrne  Yes. Numbers have increased very substantially. If we were to look at the total number of registrations, in 2020 it was just over 5,000 and it was up to 9,461 last year. They have grown very substantially. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  We need to get to 12,500. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Fiona O'Byrne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Fiona O'Byrne  The ambition is to grow them substantially further. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  That is a good trend. Just as regards the fees, do the officials feel the student contribution charge is a barrier to entry for people in colleges? Is that the feedback they get about it at its current level? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  I think the Deputy is trying draw me into a political conversation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  No politician would ever do that in the Committee of Public Accounts. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  You can say anything you like about that subject, and I really cannot comment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  There is no anecdotal feedback. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  It is not something we would actively canvass. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  I am not trying to put you in a tricky situation. I am just wondering. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  We spend a lot of time and effort looking at a range of issues, including SUSI and the support for SUSI, which is the mechanism by which we support people, either by giving----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  A targeted offset. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  Yes, targeted. That is a big part of what we do, but there is a political conversation there. I do not particularly want, in fairness to the Deputy, to----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  I was not trying to do that. I was just asking about barriers to entry for college. My last question is this. Of the 70,000 doing the leaving certificate, a certain number goes to the universities and third level colleges, and a certain number goes into the trades. What is the third number? What is the delta between the two that might go to neither that you do not capture? Is there a mechanism for capturing that number? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  We are into a whole range of provision in the further education space, including what we would call post-leaving certificate, PLC, courses. Internationally, we try to capture that not at 18 but at 23. We try to examine what a person has done by the age of 23 or 25. Not everybody has to go immediately. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  People could stay working on their own family farm or in a family shop. Does the Department capture the delta between the two? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  We are trying to develop the further education space. There is a range of other things that people can do, such as a PLC, a tertiary degree or a short-term course. The education and training boards provide a whole range of provision there. Nobody's journey is the same as anybody else's. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  I was more just wondering if you capture the number. If not, that is fine too. I was just wondering. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  I think the State generally would capture the number of people who are either in employment or out of employment. There is a high degree of correlation between your level of skills and your employment prospects. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  Thank you. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  We will go into a shorter second round, if that is okay. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  I will just make a remark in respect of the cyberattack.  My understanding is that MTU and the University of Galway were the two institutions affected by the cyberattack. Both consulted and informed the National Cyber Security Centre. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  I want to close out the student contribution fee issue with Dr. O'Reardon. Am I correct that at a certain income threshold there is a reduced student contribution? Will Dr. O'Reardon remind us what that is again? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  I struggle to keep these numbers in my head at any given time. I will ask Mr. Moynes to go through that. This is around the higher level for somebody. Is that correct? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  There is an escalation. At the lowest levels of income, people will get a free student contribution and the maintenance grant. That goes up in an escalating way. I have the figure in my book and I will try to get it for the Deputy before the meeting ends. At a certain level, that goes to 50% fees paid and I think between around \u20ac80,000 and \u20ac120,000, there is a \u20ac500 reduction. It is full for some people, half for some people and then it is \u20ac500 for the others. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  The last time there was a political kerfuffle - I will call it kindly - about the student contribution fee, the Minister made the point that there was a low take-up of people recognising that they got a \u20ac500 discount on the student contribution fee at the higher income threshold. Is that correct? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  There is definitely not full take-up. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  From memory, at the time it was exceptionally low. What is it now? The Department ran an advertising campaign was run. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  We did. I cannot think of it off the top of my head. I am sure it is in my book here somewhere. I will have a look to see if I can find it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  I hear what Dr. O'Reardon is saying about not entering the political fray on the student contribution fee but what can he say about it in terms of its neutral, negative or positive impact at its current levels? Regarding the discounts that are offered, at a policy level, on an evidence basis, what can the Department say on the student contribution fee? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  A Chathaoirligh, I think I am being brought into a very political space. There is a variety of views about whether it is better to reduce the student contribution fee, which is essentially a universal measure from which everyone benefits or whether there should be more emphasis on the targeting of resources at SUSI. This, by definition, supports people through a means-tested scheme, essentially, which is trying to target resources. Students also bring a degree of their own resources because a very large number of them are working part time to support themselves in their studies. I do not have a particular piece of evidence to present to the committee as to the merits or demerits of any of those arguments. They are essentially in the political domain. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Is the impact of the student contribution fee and the various schemes to subsidise, lower or eliminate it for certain income levels ever examined by the Department? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  We are doing research at the moment but that is focused on SUSI and trying to understand. We have worked to improve our forecasting on SUSI but also to understand where the different trade-offs are. We are working with the ESRI on that subject but I have not looked at the question of the student contribution. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Is that research seeing whether the current income thresholds are suitable, should be increased or are a bit low or a bit of everything? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  Again, I think the Deputy is bringing me into a political space, which I absolutely respect but----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  I am asking is that what the research is about. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  I am not aware that we are looking at the question of student contributions in terms of trying to understand behaviours or anything of that nature. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  What is the research that is being done on SUSI? What is it looking into with the ESRI? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  We are trying to develop our capacity to forecast what the costs will be if we make changes in thresholds. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  That is what I thought. That was my question. The purpose of the research is to assess the impact of changes to the thresholds on people accessing third level education. Is that correct? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  It is more around what the cost would be of changing a threshold here or there. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  It is what the cost would be, not the net social impact. Is that correct? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  No, I do not think we are in that space. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  The Department is carrying out the research. What has the Department asked the ESRI been asked to do? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  I do not know if the Deputy is familiar with the ESRI's simulating welfare, income tax, childcare and health policies model, SWITCH, which is used to analyse changes in social protection. We are trying to get to a version where we could use SWITCH to better model changes in SUSI. This would give you a better understanding of the distributional impact of different changes to SUSI. This is not something which would typically give you information about behaviours and what the implication would be for people's willingness to go to college, say, on a student contribution. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  When the national skills observatory is established, what will be the output of that information? That will be run by SOLAS so presumably it will inform the kinds of programmes that SOLAS runs. Will it have a broader impact in terms of informing Ms O'Byrne's Department and others, and industrial policy? Where will that information flow travel? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Fiona O'Byrne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Fiona O'Byrne  The intention is that it is for the entirety of the skills system and not limited through the provision funded by SOLAS. The observatory will have a steering group with representation from the HEA, the Department of enterprise and a range of colleagues from different Departments and State agencies to take a whole-of-system view. It will inform what the higher education institutions and the ETBs look at in terms of provision, as well as providing information for policymakers like ourselves around interventions that might be required.  In due course, we also expect the information to be of interest to individuals making decisions about their own trajectories and career and training choices. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  A lot of this information will be published. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Fiona O'Byrne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Fiona O'Byrne  Exactly, yes "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Will the information flow have application or be relevant to the Department of education, as distinct from the Department of further and higher education, as well? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Fiona O'Byrne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Fiona O'Byrne  I would have to double-check that. I do not think the Department of education is on the steering group. However, we work closely with it in the space of transitions and the movement from school to further and higher education. Again, the intention is that the information will be publicly available and available to the likes of guidance counsellors as well. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Ms O'Byrne was quick to make the distinction that the Department of enterprise is doing lots of things with AI. Is AI the catalyst for the establishment of the national skills observatory or what is the catalyst? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Fiona O'Byrne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Fiona O'Byrne  It is the recognition that more scope exists to do more with the data, so we should be making the best of that. In 2023, we had the OECD do a review of our skills system. One of its recommendations was to move towards the establishment of a national skills observatory. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Is it the threat of the disruption that AI is bringing to the labour market that has triggered the Department into action? What is the catalyst? Is it just that there are better systems out there? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  The Department was set up in 2020 so we are trying to think about what our role is. Ms O'Byrne mentioned the OECD. As we develop the Department, we are thinking about what we should do and what functions we should serve. One of them is this thing that we have described in terms of forecasting skills needs. There is no doubt that AI is a significant component of that, whether it is happening now or is likely to happen into the future. There is the issue of AI in terms of reskilling people in the labour market or how people in universities incorporate AI in their learning. There is a variety of challenges from AI coming at us. It is not the only thing that motivated the skills observatory but it is a significant component of it.  We got the ESRI to do a piece of work on three specific skills areas, which demonstrated that the new methodologies we referred to about scraping data from websites and so on, provide a significant advance in what is possible in this area. Hence, we are making an investment there. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  The use of AI will advance the Department's ability to identify potential disruption caused by it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  Yes, exactly. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Finally, I suspect Mr. Jordan is the right person to ask this question. In the opening statement from Dr. O'Reardon - I think I have got this right - it was stated that ineligible expenditure of nearly \u20ac20,000 and an unused grant of more than \u20ac47,000 were returned by Skillnet Ireland to the contracting organisation. What is the total amount this contracting organisation has received? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  Is this in terms of what is due back to Skillnet Ireland? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  No, it is not in terms of what is due back. What is the total amount of moneys that this contracting organisation has received? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  Over the course of our relationship with it, the entirety was about \u20ac2.4 million. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I have a number of questions. Mr. Jordan stated a couple of times that in relation to the protected disclosure the person who made the disclosure was unable to co-operate and brought that process to a head. He also made reference to that individual stopping their co-operation. Am I accurate in what I think Mr. Jordan said? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  The discloser who disclosed the matter was engaging with us and then ceased all engagement and was unable to, or did not, co-operate with the investigation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Is Mr. Jordan sure on that fact? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  In relation to the ability of Skillnet Ireland and the oversight and governance with the networks, was there an ability for Skillnet Ireland to appoint a board member to any of the networks? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  Could the Cathaoirleach rephrase the question, perhaps? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Was there any provision for Skillnet Ireland to appoint a board member to any of the networks? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  Not that I would be aware of, no. Do you mean a member of----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Skillnet Ireland has not appointed anybody to any boards. That ability does not exist. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  Not to my knowledge. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Not to Mr. Jordan's knowledge, okay.  In relation to the service level agreement, SLA, between the Department and Skillnet Ireland and the oversight agreement, when the issues were first identified on foot of the complaint, protected disclosure or internal mechanisms - correct me if I am wrong but I presume there is an agreement between Skillnet Ireland and the Department - did Skillnet Ireland bring those concerns immediately to the attention of the Department? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  Is this relating to the protected disclosure? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  It is relating to the issues that Mr. Jordan stated the organisation had identified and the complaint that had been made. Was there full disclosure to the Department at that stage? At what stage was the Department made aware of these issues or concerns? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  Regarding the ongoing governance checks that were identifying issues, we would not ordinarily make the Department aware of that because we are dealing with those. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Were these issues flagged within the financial statements in Skillnet Ireland? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Mark Jordan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Mark Jordan  We were dealing with them. We were working with the organisation, for example, to reconcile some of the amounts. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Is there an expectation from the Department's perspective, under an SLA and issues such as this being identified within an organisation, in this instance Skillnet Ireland, that it should have been flagged immediately with the Department under the disclosure agreement? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  We were aware that there was an issue. We asked for updates on it. We would have been----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  At what stage was the Department made aware? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  I will check the notes. In October 2023, we received an early warning report from Skillnet Ireland advising that it had received allegations by email in the September in relation to one of those things and a contracting organisation. Over the period, we would have checked in with Skillnet Ireland looking for updates. We would have had an acceptance that protected disclosures are sensitive and that we can only ask for so much information about protected disclosures. What we have done is we have changed the text of the performance delivery agreement with Skillnet Ireland to require it to keep the Department updated on any aspect of a personal disclosure which identifies any financial wrongdoing, misuse of funds or any other potential issues. Skillnet Ireland has acknowledged this, but this protected disclosure should have been managed more quickly. The process took too long. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  It is an issue that we are going to be coming back to when get full sight of the additional information that has been requested.  I wish to move on to a piece of work the committee embarked on that was trying to identify the costs of courses for Secretaries General. This was on foot of concerns that had been expressed in relation to the previous chair of the OPW where there was extraordinary expenditure and very little value for money to the taxpayer. Of all the Departments, which all came back to us, the one that stood out was the Department of further and higher education. It was not Dr. O'Reardon but his predecessor who embarked on a course to be a leader who matters programme in Stanford University in the USA at an extraordinary cost of over \u20ac65,000. That was between 2022 and 2023. Mr. Breslin then left the Department and took up employment in a different sector in that same year. From Dr. O'Reardon's perspective, and one of the metrics here is to ensure there is value for money, does he think that expenditure of \u20ac65,000 on a course when an employee has one foot out of the door presents value for money to the Department and the taxpayer? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  As I said to the Cathaoirleach, I joined the Department after Mr. Breslin left. I do not have sight of the specific considerations. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Okay. Leaving the specific aside, does a cost of that magnitude represent value for money? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  There was a process that was followed. However, following this issue coming to our attention, we have amended our processes, such that if a person were to leave the Department today within 12 months of undertaking any programme, they would have to refund the costs. They have to----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  When did that come into place? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  I cannot recall exactly when we made that change. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I will check with the C and AG. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy  It has been fairly standard that for an officer who benefits from fees of a course being paid there would be a 12-month period that if they left within that period they had to repay the fee costs. We tested in this case. It was 15 months after the course was taken. If it had been less, I would have probably been calling it out. It did not apply in the case of Secretaries General, but it may have changed now. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  It now does. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Whether that timeframe is coincidental or otherwise, I am not quite sure. Would something like this be sanctioned again? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  The Cathaoirleach is asking me if I have any intention. No, I have no intention of engaging in that kind of programme. It is important that senior management in----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I am not questioning that. It is about the expenditure of \u20ac65,000 when the employee has one foot out of the door. There is a public perception out there. It has happened in other instances where someone is nearing retirement, or moving on from the Department or the organisation, and it is to further their own career on the back of public expenditure with no value to the organisation or the Department. That is the concern. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  We have changed our process. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Dr. O'Reardon cannot say whether it represents value for money or not. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  I was not there at the time. We would be clear that any programme that people have to go on has to be based on analysis of what the need is, and the 12-month rule would apply. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I wish to move onto the issue of apprenticeships that Deputy Neville mentioned. It is positive to see the plans to expand the apprenticeship programme. It is an area that has been lagging. There has been a lot of criticism regarding the backlogs, the underfunding within the whole sector of apprenticeships and the number of people dropping out from apprenticeships.  Dr. O'Reardon might give us a number as to whether there are backlogs for people to enter off-the-job training at phase 2, phase 4 or phase 6. He might be able to provide some of those details now. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  This was an issue that was particularly acute in late 2023 and throughout 2024. It arose because of Covid. There was a backlog and there was a very intense focus of attention given to that. I might ask Ms O'Byrne to give you the number. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Fiona O'Byrne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Fiona O'Byrne  As the Secretary General said, when workshops closed through 2020 and 2021, apprenticeship was much more severely affected than other parts of the tertiary education system. Higher education and other further education programmes much more successfully transferred online but, given the hands-on nature of apprenticeship, substantial workshop delays built up----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  We have worked through those backlogs, have we? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Fiona O'Byrne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Fiona O'Byrne  More or less, yes. They have reduced very substantially. There were very big efforts put in to increase phase 2. It was at phase 2 that we had very big issues because the combination of the workshops closing and the success at having more people register as apprentices led to those backlogs building up. The capacity at phase 2 was stepped up very substantially and they largely have been addressed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Ms O'Byrne might provide us a note----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Fiona O'Byrne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Fiona O'Byrne  A note on where they are, sure. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  -----on the current backlogs there at each of those different phases and the numbers of people because there are issues there. I hear all the time about young people looking to do an apprenticeship but facing the cost-of-living crisis, unaffordability of accommodation and the low rates apprentices receive. That is one of the determining factors for people, first, not taking on an apprenticeship and, second, dropping out after a period of time. Ms O'Byrne might furnish us with the dropout figures and whether there is a review ongoing or planned in terms of the rates for apprenticeships because it is a huge area of concern. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Fiona O'Byrne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Fiona O'Byrne  Absolutely, we are happy to get the committee a note on those. The completion rates for apprenticeships are actually very high. They are in the range of 92%, which compares quite favourably with other programmes. For various reasons, people do not always continue programmes. The completion rates for apprenticeships are actually higher than in higher education, for example. We are happy to get the committee a note with the details, including any backlog. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  On an annual basis, maybe from prior to Covid up to this point, just so we can see those figures.  I want to touch on the Higher Education Authority. It has been stated that the Higher Education Authority has written to the Department in recent weeks expressing deep concerns about the funding gap across the sector. Has a letter been received by the Department? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  An annual report is done. It is a reflection of the engagement that takes place between the HEA and the institutions on an annual basis about budget. It would have conveyed to the Department the views of institutions about the need for enhanced funding, to be sure. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Okay, so there are concerns about the funding gap, are there? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  Yes, and it is the Department's position that we continue to work on it through Estimates processes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Can you furnish that report to the committee? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Keith Moynes","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Keith Moynes  We can. There are certain elements that might be commercially sensitive to the institutions, but we will furnish it, absolutely, as much as we can. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  It is the stated position of the Government and the Department that there is a gap in core funding in higher education which was estimated a few years ago at \u20ac307 million. Some of that has been filled. Some \u20ac174 million has been added, but it is somewhat unusual in the sector that the position of the Government is that the sector is underfunded. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I want to touch on one last issue. To be parochial for a moment, I want to sing the praises of Bray Institute of Further Education, in my constituency. It is a fantastic institute. It has over 1,300 permanent, full-time students and 1,000 part-time students. There is a serious issue there in terms of the condition of the premises. I have seen people having to stand with buckets in corridors to collect water coming in through leaking roofs. We have had announcement after announcement about future plans to develop a first-class educational campus on that site for that facility. The witnesses might be able to give us an update. It is badly needed. Huge investment is needed there. It is a real success story, with people travelling not just from within Wicklow but further afield. Investment is needed. It is just to see whether the institute is included in the capital plan and what capital is planned. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  Mr. Lemass may want to just----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Lemass","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Lemass  As regards the repair of the roof, BIFE is working with a design team to review the design of the roof with a view to inviting tenders for contract before the year is up. The design team has to work through the precise configuration. The complexity that arose was because, in addition to the short-term measures to repair the roof, Bray Institute is also part of the long-term FET major projects proposal, and its proposal in the long term would see some of that roof removed. The challenge was to identify an approach that would do as much repair as possible but without necessarily investing in an area that was then going to be dismantled as part of the longer-term project. That is what the design team will be tasked to do: to explore the best way to fix the roof in such a way that bits that are going to form part of the longer-term proposal do not get repaired----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  That process will move to tender later this year. Is that----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Lemass","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Lemass  The tender for the repair of the roof will take place this year. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Okay, with work hopefully commencing on that element next year at some stage? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Lemass","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Lemass  Subject to the response to the tenders, yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Then the bigger, more substantive, badly needed piece is the development of a fit-for-purpose campus there, which ultimately needs to be the objective. What kind of timeframe are we looking at there? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Lemass","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Lemass  As regards the timeframe there, there are two pieces of work. Each ETB that is participating in this programme has to prepare a design brief. In parallel, the Department, working with the GDA and SOLAS, is putting together a framework of architects, structural engineers, mechanical and electrical engineers and quantity surveyors. That framework will be available for drawdown in September, and any ETB that has its design brief ready at that point in time is free then to engage with the framework and hold a competition to appoint architects and engineers. It is a hugely significant point in the development of a project because these are the people who will then start putting the actual designs in place, including preparing documents for planning permission, fire certificates and----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  So the onus is on the ETB to have that piece of work----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Lemass","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Lemass  In parallel with the framework being put in place by August. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Then funding is contained in the national development plan within the Department? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Lemass","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Lemass  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Colm O'Reardon  I reassure you, a Chathaoirligh, that the college is a future priority for us. There is an envelope of funding within the NDP, and this is a very important project for us in Bray. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  It is not suitable when buckets have to be put in place in corridors to collect water in this and day and age. We spoke earlier about prefabs in education, in primary and secondary. In third level education, when we have properties that are not fit for purpose, it is doing a disservice to education. I will keep in touch on that. It is badly needed. Hopefully, it can be delivered, but the campus is ultimately what needs to be the priority and the goal.  That concludes our engagement for today. I thank the Secretary General and his officials from the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science for attending. I also thank officials from Skillnet Ireland, the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation and the C and AG for their attendance once again.  Is it agreed that the clerk will seek any follow-up information and carry out any agreed actions arising from the meeting? Agreed.  The committee will meet again on Thursday, 25 June 2026, with the Beaumont Hospital board and representatives from the HSE. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" The witnesses withdrew. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The committee adjourned at 2.19 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 25 June 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Financial Statements 2024: National Training Fund"}]}}]},"contextDate":"2026-06-18"},{"debateRecord":{"house":{"showAs":"34th D\u00e1il","committeeCode":"","houseCode":"dail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/house\/dail\/34","chamberType":"house","houseNo":"34"},"chamber":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/def\/house\/dail","showAs":"D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann"},"lastUpdated":"2026-06-22T13:19:28+00:00","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/main","formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/mul@\/main.xml"},"pdf":null},"date":"2026-06-18","counts":{"contributorCount":139,"divisionCount":0,"debateSectionCount":45,"questionCount":28,"billCount":0},"debateType":"debate","debateSections":[{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_2","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":false,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_3","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Social Welfare Appeals","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_2","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_3.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Louise O'Reilly  This is a fairly straightforward question and one I have asked before, because it is an issue I like to keep track of. It has to do with the high rate of people who are unsuccessful the first time but successful the second time, often in circumstances where there has been no change. I know that the Minister will say this is not the case, but I can tell him that my constituents do believe that there is a policy. Some of the people who contact my office believe that there is a policy of refuse first and see if people come back. That is not a good thing, I am sure the Minister will agree, but it is certainly the impression that people have. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Social Protection (Deputy Dara Calleary)  I thank Deputies O'Reilly and Wall for their ongoing work on this issue. The DCA is a monthly payment to a parent or a guardian in respect of a child aged under 16 who has a severe disability and requires care and attention substantially over and above that needed by a child of the same age. The payment is not means tested. There is no restriction on the number of children for whom a person may claim the payment.  The current rate of appeal for DCA is not disproportionately higher than that of similar medical-based schemes administered by the Department. In 2026, to the end of May, the appeal rate was 20%, with 6,742 decisions made and 1,366 appeals submitted. It is important to note that where decisions are allowed in the receipt of an appeal, this may not mean that the initial decision was incorrect. A decision is more often revised because the person making an appeal provides additional information that was not available when the decision was first made. In other jurisdictions, appellants are not allowed to submit additional information, but instead are required to submit a new application. By referring the appeal papers back to the Department's decision team for review, our process is more flexible. As a result, 692, or 62%, of the 1,111 DCA appeals granted in the period from January to May 2026 were decided by way of a revised decision by the scheme's deciding officers. This shows the Department's efforts to ensure that as few cases as possible have to go through the full appeals process. To reduce the level of appeals, we encourage those to provide all relevant information in the initial application. In a further effort to assist customers applying for DCA, claims can now be made online and improvements are being introduced to make that process easier for families.  The number of DCA appeals on hand has reduced significantly. At the end of 2024, there were 1,709 appeals on hand. This reduced to 664 by the end of 2025. There are 610 appeals on hand this year to date. This is in the context of a significant increase in applications for DCA in recent years. The number of applications increased by 17.5% in 2025, with a similar rate of increase evident so far this year. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Louise O'Reilly  I know that the Minister is very aware that in order to apply for DCA, a parent has to fill out a very long form, be it online or done with a biro. It is a very long form and they must describe their child on their worst day. They must talk about all of the things about their child that are negative for their family. It is soul destroying and exhausting. I can say this because I conducted a survey last year where I talked to people about it.  The experience of having an appeal rejected is somewhat traumatising for parents. I have had people in my office and I am trying to encourage them to appeal where there are no changes in the circumstances and they get it on appeal. It is welcome that people can apply online, as this removes some of the burden but, in truth, these forms are onerous. Filling them out is really hard for parents only to have an application rejected while knowing they have an entitlement and to have to go back and appeal. My understanding is that the percentage being overturned on appeal has risen. That is not a good thing. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  I have placed considerable emphasis on this since being appointed. At the end of 2024, there were 1,700 appeals on hand. At the end of 2025, there were 664 appeals on hand, and we had a 17.5% increase in applications in 2025. As I said at the end of my previous contribution, we have a similar increase this year. We have allocated additional resources to manage it. By moving it online, we have taken some of that paperwork burden out of it.  I am very much open to feedback. We are doing a review of all the forms and processes at the moment. It is important for us to get a balance between getting the information we need to make a decision and to allow people to make an informed decision. I do not want a situation where we are adding to the challenges of a parent's life and, most importantly, a child's life. I need to strike a balance and I am very much open to feedback from offices about the design of any of our forms, but particularly the DCA form. I do not want people to have to go through any more challenges than they already do in their daily lives. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Louise O'Reilly  Some of this stuff is very easy to understand. If someone has a child who has a condition or a disability and that child is doubly incontinent, there you go and that should be enough without a parent having to go into a narrative about what that means. We know what that means. That means restrictions on where people can go. That means they have to be with their child constantly. All of these things we know. Sometimes, the Department requires a lot of information from people about the impact that having a child with a disability has on the household. That is really hard for parents to do.  We conducted a survey. A really high proportion came back to us and advised that they experienced poverty in the period between making the application and actually receiving the DCA, regardless of whether that required an appeal. That is not acceptable. A lot can be done to streamline the forms but that narrative part of the form is really tough for parents to engage with. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  We have the online option. The average time to award a payment in 2026 to date has been seven weeks. The target is nine. We have also put a fast-track system in place between our medical assessors and my officials to ensure that all medical issues are expedited. I am trying to take all the blockages out of the application system. In response to the work of Deputies O'Reilly and Wall, who have consistently raised this, often outside the Chamber as well, we are keeping a very sharp focus on delays in the appeals. We have to strike a balance between getting the full information to make an informed decision efficiently and effectively. I have asked my officials to remember at all times the day-to-day experiences of the parents and guardians applying for it and of the children in particular. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Social Welfare Appeals"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_4","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Social Welfare Eligibility","counts":{"speechCount":8,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_2","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_4","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_4.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Seamus Healy  I come back to a very important issue that I have raised previously, namely, the abolition of the means test for the carer's allowance. I am asking the Minister to do that on 1 July, in view of the promises made in the general election in 2024 by all political parties and particularly in view of the recent report by Family Carers Ireland that showed very significant issues in care provision. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  As the Deputy knows, the carer's allowance is the main scheme by which my Department provides income support for carers. Currently, just over 108,000 carers receive this payment, with a provision of over \u20ac1.4 billion euro this year. The carer's support grant is a separate payment that was paid to over 147,000 carers on 4 June 2026, at a rate of \u20ac2,000 per person being cared for, marking an investment of \u20ac336 million.  The programme for Government has set out a commitment to significantly increase the income disregards for carer's allowance in each budget, with a view to phasing out of the means test during the lifetime of this Government. This process is well under way. Last July, the amount of weekly earnings disregard was increased to \u20ac625 for a single person and \u20ac1,250 for a couple. As part of budget 2026, I announced further improvements to the means tests. They will be introduced from 2 July. From then, the weekly income disregard will increase from \u20ac625 to \u20ac1,000 for a single person and from \u20ac1,250 to \u20ac2,000 for carers who are part of a couple. These are the largest ever increases in income disregards. They are higher than for any other payment.  In its recent report, Family Carers Ireland acknowledged the significant progress made in increasing income disregards. The report states that 68% of Irish households are now falling within the financial eligibility criteria. The impact of the increases will mean that those recipients on a reduced payment due to their means will see their payments increase. In addition, more carers will qualify for the carer's allowance. For example, a carer in a two-adult household with an income of approximately \u20ac110,000 will retain a full carer's allowance payment and a carer with an income of \u20ac138,000 will retain a partial payment. When one considers that the commitment to remove the means test is estimated to cost a minimum of about \u20ac600 million, it is clear that a commitment can only be phased in through a number of budgets. I intend to do this over the lifetime of the Government, in keeping with the conditions of the programme for Government. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Seamus Healy  The findings of the report from Family Carers Ireland, entitled \"The State of Caring 2026\", should shock us all. Some of the key findings include that 75% of carers have never received respite, 76% are cutting back on non-essentials, 71% find it difficult to make ends meet, 69% do not receive sufficient formal support, and 49% are cutting back on essentials like food and heating.  A stark 48% experience severe loneliness, 32% report very bad mental health and 19% report bad or very bad physical health. Carers do significant work and save the State billions of euro. It is now time to recognise that and implement the commitments and promises that were made during the general election 2024. The Minister has the opportunity to do that on 1 July and he should do that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  I am very aware of the work of Family Carers Ireland. We host a forum specifically for carers every year. We did that in May. I am very aware of the challenges being faced by carers in terms of respite and other supports. The Deputy may have missed the point within the report that over 68% of families would now receive a carer's allowance payment as a consequence of the income disregards being changed from July. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Seamus Healy  That leaves 32%. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  This means that somebody on an income of \u20ac110,000 can receive a full carer's allowance payment and those on \u20ac138,000 can receive a partial payment. So, we are making very substantial progress in phasing out the means test. It is a commitment in the programme for Government and I will continue to progress it. I also have other commitments and I want to ensure that we look at the people who are on existing carer's payments for support.  Carers are very important and we had a full morning of engagement with them at our carers forum, where many of the issues in the Family Carers Ireland report were raised. We are working through those with other colleagues across the Government. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Seamus Healy  Every political party, including Fianna F\u00e1il, made a commitment in general election 2024 to abolish the carer's means test, full stop, no ifs or buts. There were no terms and conditions. There was no small print and no devil in the detail. The Government was going to abolish the means test for carer's allowance, but it has not honoured that commitment. That raises the whole question of trust in politics and politicians. The public are becoming quite cynical now about all things political.  The Minister has another opportunity to do the right thing on 1 July. He is already making some changes, which are welcome. However, it still leaves one third of carers above the threshold of the means test. The Government has the funds available. The cost ranges from about \u20ac259 million to the figure the Minister has used, which is \u20ac600 million. The Parliamentary Budget Office says \u20ac259 million. The Government has a \u20ac9.2 billion surplus in budget 2026. The Minister has the opportunity and the funds. He should do the right thing and show the Government's bona fides to carers on 1 July. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  The lifetime of this Government is to 2029. I have my ambitions to maintain this commitment. Any situation where a social protection support is available to a family on \u20ac110,000 per year in full or to a family on \u20ac138,000 in part represents very good progress. These are the biggest increases in the income disregard for the carer's allowance and will come into effect on 1 July. However, I also must have consideration of other pressures and priorities within my Department. I must have consideration for the people receiving carer's allowance at the moment. That is why we were able to introduce a \u20ac10 increase in the weekly carer's allowance for 2026.  I am very much aware of, and determined to implement, that programme for Government commitment. We will continue our work with Family Carers Ireland. We had a very good carers forum and there are many issued raised within \"The State of Caring 2026\" report that I will work on within my Department and with colleagues across the Government. I assure the Deputy that, given what we are doing from 1 July with the biggest increases in income disregards since the allowance's introduction, I am very much delivering to my party's commitment in this area. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Social Welfare Eligibility"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_5","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Social Welfare Payments","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_2","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_5","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_5.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Louise O'Reilly  The Minister and I discussed this at committee. I received a response from the Minister for Health advising that the general medical services, GMS, contract does not cover the filling out of forms. As the Minister for Social Protection knows, a lot of people require medical information in order to apply for social welfare and other things. Given that filling out forms is not covered, my question is on the significant barriers, be they administrative, financial or otherwise. Once I started to look into this, I realised that there were a lot of people who found it quite daunting to approach the Department of Social Protection. Specifically, my concern is around the people on the medical card. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  I thank the Deputy. We are very committed in the Department to reducing any administrative, financial or other barrier that may prevent people from accessing their social protection entitlements. Our schemes are generally accessed through two main mechanisms: by assessing the PRSI contribution record of a person in respect of social benefit schemes; and by applying a means test and other conditions as appropriate in the case of social assistance schemes.  In respect of contributory schemes, we have broadened access and entitlements in recent years through the introduction of new schemes such as jobseekers pay-related benefit; the expansion of access to existing schemes, for example, to carer's benefit for the self-employed; and the extension of the duration of schemes. In respect of means-tested social assistance schemes, significant adjustments have been made in income disregards, which have enabled more people to qualify for schemes such as carer's allowance, fuel allowance and disability allowance in recent years.  The statistics back up the fact that people are increasingly facilitated in accessing our Department's schemes. Annual transaction volumes have increased from 3.2 million in 2024 to over 3.4 million in 2025. We have sought to make it easier, as we discussed earlier in the context of DCA, through the expansion of the Department\u2019s digital and IT platforms. These developments allow, for example, the auto-award of many payments, including the automatic award of approximately 85,000 back to school clothing and footwear allowance payments, which will be done over July, and the automatic award of 147,000 carer support grants in recent weeks. Many child benefit claims for second and subsequent children are also auto-awarded while the sharing of information with Revenue means that many jobseeker claims can also be awarded without recourse to seeking prior employment records.  The Department is also witnessing a very considerable increase in use of our online service platform, MyWelfare.ie . We are continuing to provide in-person and phone-based support services.  I will address the issue around the medical cards in my subsequent reply. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Louise O'Reilly  Excellent, and I hope that the Minister will confirm to me that people can apply for supplementary welfare allowance in order to pay for the GP. If this is not covered on the medical card and someone does not have the means to pay \u20ac80 but absolutely does need to apply for whatever reason, it strikes me that it should be available on the supplementary welfare allowance. I am hoping that the Minister will confirm that to me this morning. If it is not available, then I am hopeful that the Minister will say where people can get the money.  People cannot magic up \u20ac80. If they have not got \u20ac80, they have not got it. Many GPs will fill out a form, but only on a grace and favour arrangement. More and more people are finding that their GPs will not fill out the forms or that they have to pay for a visit outside of the GMS. That is \u20ac80. Perhaps the Minister will confirm that people can apply for supplementary welfare allowance because that is not the experience of my constituents. I am hoping that the Minister can confirm that this morning. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  To put Deputy O'Reilly's remarks in context, we discussed this at committee last week. I followed it up. I am going to follow this up with the Deputy. It was raised by many Deputies following her intervention. The Department of Social Protection does not require applicants to obtain private assessments or specialist medical reports to submit an application for a social welfare payment. All available evidence submitted as part of the application is considered. In addition, the Department funds GPs to complete the medical portion of relevant social welfare application forms.  I am going to follow that issue up within the Department and with the Deputy. We are happy to engage with any Deputy where there is this issue. We do not need to know the specific circumstances. I do not want people being unable to access social protection support for the want of not having income. It goes against everything the social protection system stands for, with a lack of resources preventing someone from accessing the system that is supposed to help them. I am very focused on this.  I am going to be doing a lot of work on this but this is my initial response and I am happy to engage with the Deputy on it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Louise O'Reilly  That is very welcome to hear and I am more than happy to work with the Minister. I can provide him with practical examples of where this has happened. I can also say, as I used to represent nurses and I do not hold a massive candle for doctors, that many GPs do this. The problem usually arises when a person goes in to get a form filled and they find out that maybe there is a new GP or they have moved to a different type of service and they just do not do that form. People are not seeing the same GP when they go back and they are coming to my office. When they go for supplementary welfare allowance, that is not always clear cut either and a lot of the time people are sent back. They are told to go to the doctor because the doctor has to do it but the doctor does not have to do it, as the Minister for Health has confirmed to me.  I really welcome that the Minister is going to examine this matter. I can tell him that I will work with him and I am sure plenty of others will as well because it cannot just be an issue in my area. I would imagine it is across the board. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  I thank the Deputy. We will engage with the Minister, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, in relation to the communication of this. It is something we have noticed coming up in forums as well - that there is a genuine consideration that we require very complex medical assessments. We do not. I also meant to emphasise in relation to the domiciliary care allowance earlier that we do not require assessments of need. That is still out there. We are trying to minimise the burden on those seeking to access the services. I certainly look forward to feedback from all Deputies in relation to this. We will continue to work with the Minister, Deputy Carroll MacNeill. I will also ask my Department's officials to communicate this and make sure that this is communicated as we redesign forms and application processes. Forms, for many people, are no longer the means of accessing our services. We will communicate very clearly what is required and, most importantly, what is not. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Social Welfare Payments"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_6","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Poverty Data","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_2","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_6","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin Hayes","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_6.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin Hayes","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin Hayes  My question is about older people living alone. According to the Central Statistics Office, CSO, about 30%, or one in three, are at risk of poverty. It seems quite incredible that in a country with a \u20ac9 billion surplus in cash and one of the highest GDPs per capita in the world that we would have such a level of people living alone and pensioners in poverty. I would like to hear what the Minister is going to do about it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  I thank the Deputy. As he knows, the State pension is the bedrock of our pension system in Ireland. As reflected in data from the CSO, it is effective in ensuring that our pensioners do not experience poverty. We, as a Government, are committed to ensuring that this remains the case for current pensioners, including those nearing State pension age, and today\u2019s young workers, including those only starting their careers.  Over \u20ac12 billion was allocated to State pensions in budget 2026, an increase on budget 2025. From January of this year, the weekly State pension increased by \u20ac10, which now means the maximum rate of the State contributory pension is \u20ac299.30 per week. Since 2021, the State contributory pension has increased by \u20ac51 per week, which shows a commitment to supporting older people. This continues to be a priority for me.  It is recognised that the cost of living for a person living alone is greater than the individualised cost of one of two or more people living together. That is why a weekly living alone increase of \u20ac22 is payable to all those aged 66 and over, who are in receipt of a State pension payment from my Department. The living alone allowance has risen by over 144% since 2019, when it was \u20ac9 per week. It is paid to about 260,000 people every week. All of these recipients also qualify for the so-called free schemes under the household benefits package, including an electricity or gas allowance and a free TV licence. The telephone support allowance and the fuel allowance payment which, as the Deputy will be aware, was extended by a further four weeks in 2026, is also available subject to a means test.  The rates of primary and secondary payments to pensioners, and their adequacy, are considered in the context of the annual budgetary process. In doing so, we consider evidence from a wide range of sources, including agencies such as the CSO, and also research from groups such as the Vincentian Partnership for Social Justice and its minimum essential standard of living, which has just been published today. I am very conscious about the pressures facing those living alone. It will very much feed into my work in the context of budget 2027. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin Hayes","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin Hayes  The Minister said that the State pension is aimed at making sure older people do not experience poverty but, according to the CSO, one in ten is experiencing consistent poverty. That is a doubling since the year before in 2024. Notably, this is particularly acute in rural areas and in the Minister's constituency of Mayo and Belmullet. Some 27% of households are reliant on the State pension exclusively. They are living alone; they are isolated in rural areas and entirely reliant on State support. One of the things the Minister mentioned was the increase to the living alone allowance. He selectively looked at 2019. The majority of that increase happened in 2020 and there has not been a significant increase to the living alone allowance since. What will the Minister do on the living alone and telephone allowances in the forthcoming budget? What is the threshold for him to tackle poverty for people living alone? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  I am very aware of the people of Belmullet. I had the privilege of being there recently at a 100th birthday, and with a neighbour who is 101. I give my good wishes to Mrs. Ginnelly who is 100 today. That is three people in one village breaking the 100 year mark. I am very aware of it and of older people everywhere, including in Dublin Bay South. We want to ensure there is an adequacy of income, particularly for those living alone. I am very aware of the gap and the cliff edge - for want of a better phrase - that people face when they lose their partner. They are left with the same expenses but their income is reduced. We are definitely looking at the living alone allowance but, as I said, when you look at the level of increase since 2019, it is 144%. It was \u20ac9 per week in 2019, so there has been a very definitive increase there, and also when you look at the other payments that are available. The fuel allowance is paid to many pensioners. That was extended for four weeks to bring it to 1 May.  We are looking at the telephone support allowance and the free TV licence. We are looking to see if those payments continue to be relevant in the context of different forms of communication, such as streaming services, etc. I want to make sure that communications are as relevant as possible because for somebody living alone, communications and the ability to have them are essential. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin Hayes","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin Hayes  I would strongly welcome the Minister doing that in the forthcoming budget. To come back to the fuel allowance in particular, many older people are struggling to heat their homes. They are often staying in bed rather than getting up because they cannot afford the gas or the home heating oil.  I want to focus on the question of targeted energy credits. This is something that has been talked about in the House many times. There are 500,000 households in arrears, according to the Commission for Regulation of Utilities. I assume that many households like that include older people living alone. The Minister's Department, in particular, has an obligation to look at how it targets energy credits for different people. I know it can be administratively difficult but I would be interested to know if that is something the Minister is planning to do as well for older people living alone. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  The fuel allowance is paid to many people, such as pensioners, but it is paid to allow them make decisions about their own fuel and energy. I am certainly open to ideas as to how we make sure it can help people directly with fuel payments. People's fuel demands and fuel bills are different, depending on their use of fuel, what kind of heating systems they have and where they live. The whole basis of the fuel allowance, which we increased by \u20ac5 per week and extended by four weeks, is that people have the choice to use that money to make the payment for their fuel in whatever way they want. We have seen proposals and had proposals and debate about how that gets targeted but I am not sure, by taking away people's choice, whether we will worsen the situation inadvertently. There are proposals that we should give it directly to energy companies but I am not convinced that will work. For many people, that might not be their fuel pressure in terms of income. I am very open to proposals on how we can use the fuel allowance to ensure we have more targeting. I look forward to the proposals in the Deputy's budget submission. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Poverty Data"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_7","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Social Welfare Schemes","counts":{"speechCount":7,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_2","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_7","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Maxwell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_7.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Maxwell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy David Maxwell)  Deputy McAuliffe has the next four questions in a row. We are on Question No. 5. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an gCathaoirleach. Could the Minister address the issue of the fuel allowance, particularly the income thresholds for those over the age of 66 in single-income households? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  I thank Deputy McAuliffe for his question and his ongoing work on this. As a result of that work, there have been significant improvements in the fuel allowance scheme, particularly in relation to the income thresholds for those who are 66 and over.  In January 2023, in order to allow more pensioner households qualify for the fuel allowance, a new fuel allowance payment was introduced for those aged 70 and over. People over 70 no longer needed to be in receipt of a qualifying social welfare payment to be eligible for fuel allowance. A single person with means of up to \u20ac500 per week or a couple with \u20ac1,000 per week became eligible. The amount of savings and investments that are disregarded was also increased for those aged 70 or over from \u20ac20,000 to \u20ac50,000.  From January 2025, this measure was extended to applicants aged 66 and over, with an increase to the weekly means that could be disregarded to \u20ac534 for a single person and \u20ac1,068 for a couple.  Recent expansions to the scheme have resulted in many more households qualifying for the payment and have resulted in the budget for the scheme increasing to an estimated \u20ac557.4 million in 2026 compared to an expenditure of \u20ac290.45 million in 2020. Since 2020, when the Deputy was elected to the D\u00e1il, an additional 100,000 households have become eligible for the fuel allowance. I am aware there may be exceptional circumstances where a person does not qualify for the fuel allowance but may need support. It is for this reason that we can make additional needs payments, through the local community welfare service, to meet essential expenses.  The programme for Government includes a commitment to examine key benefits such as the fuel allowance, the household benefits package and the living alone allowance increase to support vulnerable groups. This will be ongoing activity as part of our annual budget planning process. I intend to continue to make improvements to the key benefits, such as the fuel allowance. I am very aware of their necessity and the support they give to older and vulnerable cohorts. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  I saw a statistic that 25% of all homes now in the State are in receipt of the fuel allowance. It is certainly a very significant figure. It is coming close to nearly 500,000 homes. Any of us as Deputies can see when you walk around and knock on doors, there are homes that have been able to avail of the better energy warmer home scheme because of their eligibility for fuel allowance. My worry is about the cliff-edge for people. There might be two people over-66 living in a home and for that household, the threshold is \u20ac52,000 of annual income. Next door, if there was a person living on their own who could often be a widow or widower, their income threshold is only \u20ac26,000 but it costs the same money to heat both homes. The 50% reduction in the income threshold for a single person is very significant. Perhaps it should be something closer to two thirds of it. Particularly for those in the over-66 category, there are many people who find themselves in that situation because of bereavement and it is worth examining. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  I thank the Deputy for that example. Those are the anomalies I am looking at in the context of my previous discussion with Deputy Hayes. We are also looking at the living alone allowance. A person living on their own does not necessarily have half the costs. It is a rather arbitrary figure. In particular, it is especially challenging for somebody who goes through the trauma of losing a spouse or partner and is immediately faced with that cliff-edge. That is definitely something we will look at and particularly for the older cohort, who have higher bills for energy and food and less chance to make up that in terms of day-to-day earnings. In the context of looking at the living alone allowance increase and the fuel allowance payment for budget 2027, they are areas we will be considering. I look forward to engagement across the House ahead of budget 2027 in October. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  It is a new scheme that is popular and people want to avail of it. If you are sitting in someone's home and as you go through the form, you say to them you are only eligible for one income threshold of \u20ac26,000. The person almost feels like they are being punished for having lost their partner. You can see it etched in their face. I ask the Minister to examine it. A 50% reduction is too significant and particularly for that older cohort. With his colleague, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, the Minister needs to examine how this scheme interacts with the better energy warmer homes scheme. It is an amazing scheme and you can get nearly \u20ac50,000 of works done to your home at no cost to the homeowner. Giving a gateway to that scheme, without necessarily significantly changing the fuel allowance scheme, could be one way of addressing the issue I am raising. While often people are seeking the payment of nearly \u20ac1,000 per year, they really want to make the improvements to their home to reduce their bills through the better energy warmer home scheme. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  I will work with the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, on that. The living alone allowance is also available for people in that situation and it is \u20ac1,144 a year. The weekly rate for the living alone allowance is higher than the 28 weeks of the fuel allowance payment. I will say it to everybody about the household benefits package. There are many people who qualify for the households benefits package who are not in receipt of it. We all need to work with those who come into our offices to make sure they are in receipt of everything they are entitled to receive. That is one package in particular that I have noticed the numbers are down on. I will be doing some work on that.  The proposals and suggestions Deputy McAuliffe has made in the context of household composition and how we assess that are very worthy and could potentially make a difference. They will have to be looked at in the context of budgetary decisions and negotiations. We will be doing that. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Social Welfare Schemes"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_8","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":false,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_9","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Care Services","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_8","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_9","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_9.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  I ask the Minister for Social Protection for a report on his attendance at the annual carers' forum. I note the Minister's earlier reply so I have no difficulty making that more brief because of the answer he gave to the House a moment ago. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  I thank Deputy McAuliffe. The annual carers\u2019 forum was held on 7 May this year and I was delighted to attend and speak at the forum. The carers' forum is an important platform within the Department of Social Protection and allows family carers to engage directly with my Department and officials from other Departments to discuss important issues and carers' invaluable role in Irish society. I thank Family Carers Ireland and Care Alliance Ireland for partnering with my Department in organising the forum and contributing to its success. The event brings together family carers, carer organisations and Government officials in structured dialogue and, more importantly, for the sharing of personal lived experiences.  A broad range of issues were addressed, including proposals relating to the carer\u2019s allowance means test and measures aimed at improving access to supports. The workshops also highlighted cross-Government concerns, such as access to respite services, which we discussed earlier, housing and transport. We published a comprehensive note of proceedings on my Department\u2019s website.  We fully recognise the vital contribution of family carers and as a Government, we are committed to supporting them. I am pleased to confirm that, from next month, the weekly income disregard for carer's allowance will increase from \u20ac625 to \u20ac1,000 for a single person and from \u20ac1,250 to \u20ac2,000 for carers with a spouse or partner. These are the highest ever increases. They will enable individuals with higher incomes to qualify for carer\u2019s payments. For example, a carer in a two-adult household with an income of approximately \u20ac110,000 will retain their full payment and even with an income of \u20ac138,000, they will retain a partial payment. Additionally, the annual carer's support grant was paid earlier this month at a rate of \u20ac2,000 to over 147,000 carers at a cost of \u20ac336 million. We will have further engagement at our annual pre-budget forum on 1 July with the carers groups. These will all inform my priorities for budget 2027, the work for which is under way. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  I note this question was transferred to me from Deputy Aisling Dempsey. She has spoken to me about the issue of carers. In the previous election, Family Carer's Ireland campaigned very strongly for abolishing the means test for carers. The commitment was very clear that we would do that over the lifetime of the Government. The increase in the income thresholds has to be acknowledged. As the Minister said, it has increased to \u20ac110,000 for a full payment and \u20ac138,000 for a partial payment. That very significantly includes the vast majority of people who were in that category and came to us to ask to abolish the means test.  Of course, it is not just about getting access to the payment. It is also about acknowledging that this is real work, it should not be means tested and it should not be linked to the income of your partner. I want to acknowledge that in the first budget that was a very significant amount of money spent that was not spent elsewhere. I acknowledge it was done in terms of carers. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  I thank the Deputy. As I reiterated to Deputy Healy, in the Family Carers Ireland State of Caring in Ireland report, it estimated that 68% of families can now access a carer's payment. We have made a very strong commitment in terms of abolishing the means test for the carer's payment during the lifetime of the Government which, as I remind people, is due to go until 2029. There are many other areas and the State of Caring in Ireland report outlines there are many challenges with respite in particular and access to transport. They were articulated very strongly on 7 May at the carer's forum. I took the chance this year and last year to get that shared experience and hear directly from carers.  I particularly want to pay tribute to and thank the young carers' group who were there. There are examples of young carers going to school and college and coming back and taking up caring responsibilities. I really want to look at what we can do to support our young carers, as well as carers as a whole. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  I thank the Minister. To return to that point I made, often carers are women. Having spoken to them, I know they feel particularly aggrieved that just because their partner has done an extra five or six hours overtime a week or they have got a pay rise, that in some way means they lose their payment. That underlines the point that this should not be a means tested payment. It should be an acknowledgement for work done on behalf of the State. They are saving the State money. The quicker we move towards the abolition of the means test, the quicker we will be able to resolve that injustice. I acknowledge that the cases of the vast majority of people who would have previously come to my clinic on this issue have been addressed. Those people earning over \u20ac140,000 have not yet been addressed but obviously the Government is going to deal with that. I acknowledge the work the Minister has done. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  There continues to be anomalies. I am due to receive a report into means testing generally across all of our Department's schemes in the coming weeks and we will be considering that. We obviously have to have means tests in many cases. We have made a commitment in relation to carers, but the kind of situation the Deputy has just described, where the caring spouse of somebody who works hard has to pay the bill for that and gets their allowance reduced, is not fair either. We are going to try to ensure this is as hassle-free as possible. Carers do extraordinary work, but it is very clear from our interaction on 7 May that there is more we can do across government to reduce the burden on carers. In many cases, it is getting out of their way. In many cases, it is facilitating things such as respite and transport. As I said, I want to work with colleagues across government, particularly the Minister, Deputy Foley, and the Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan, at the Departments of children and education, respectively, in respect of young carers and what more we can do for them. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Care Services"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_10","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Social Welfare Rates","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_8","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_10","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_10.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  I acknowledge my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Ardagh, and I apologise for my enthusiasm in my first round of questions. I think I submitted too many. I ask the Minister for Social Protection if he will give consideration to changing the living alone allowance. I note his previous reply to Deputy Hayes as well. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  I commend the Minister of State, Deputy Ardagh, on her appointment and wish her every success in her new role.  It is acknowledged, as we have done this morning, that those who live alone and are dependent on certain payments from my Department face a higher cost of living than a two-person household. It is for this reason that the living alone increase is available to those in receipt of qualifying payments from my Department. The living alone allowance is a supplementary payment to those who are 66 or over, living alone and in receipt of a State contributory pension, State non-contributory pension, bereaved partner\u2019s contributory pension, bereaved partner's pension under the occupational injuries benefit scheme, incapacity supplement under the occupational injuries benefit scheme or deserted wife's benefit. It is also paid to people aged under 66 who live alone and are in receipt of a disability allowance, invalidity pension, incapacity supplement or blind pension. It is not a stand-alone payment and for this reason it is only available to those in receipt of one of those specified payments.  In total about 260,000 people receive the payment weekly. The current rate of the living alone allowance is \u20ac22 a week. It has increased by over 144% since 2019, when it was just \u20ac9 per week. The most recent change to the rate was in budget 2022 when it increased by \u20ac3, from \u20ac19 per week to its current rate of \u20ac22 per week. Any future changes to the qualifying criteria or rate of pay for the living alone allowance will have to be considered in the overall budgetary context, including possible increases to primary rates and other supports available. I look forward to input from colleagues, particularly around the qualifying criteria for the living alone allowance as well as the rate of pay. Many anomalies have been highlighted around the qualifying criteria. Deputy McAuliffe referred to one of these earlier and those are the areas I want to see if we can iron out over the course of our budgetary considerations. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  The anomalies here are an issue. I know sometimes there might be three individuals sharing a home who are not in any way related to one another, and that can provide some complications. We have been able to resolve this issue in some cases. When we are dealing with anomalies, there is that issue of people sharing a home as to who gets the fuel allowance. If one person gets it, then other people in the home do not. That is something I ask the Minister to examine.  The other thing I would say regarding the living alone allowance is that when the State spends money it inevitably has an impact on inflation. Regarding increasing the living alone allowance, this relates to costs which people already have and are already paying. People have to pay their household bills and so on. It is an area that does not have as much of an inflationary impact as perhaps increases in social welfare payments would. I am not advocating for increases in the payments but I am saying it is something to be conscious of that the living alone allowance itself does not have as much of an inflationary leakage or impact. It is something to consider. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  I was wondering there, Deputy.  I want to focus this year on targeted interventions to address those particular cohorts of people who are most at risk of falling into poverty. I want a situation where we can iron out rules within the systems that may be doing that inadvertently and may be driving people in that direction. As I said earlier, there is the situation of somebody who loses their spouse or partner and is immediately faced with the same bills but with half the income. We need to work better in terms of making the living alone allowance available quicker and providing information on it. There is also the fuel allowance. I am also conscious we have not increased the living alone allowance since budget 2022, so we have some way to catch up there. The Deputy and Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath in particular have been consistent in their work on this and I look forward to all colleagues providing input on this because it is something we all get in our constituency clinics on this particular payment. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Social Welfare Rates"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_11","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"State Savings Schemes","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_8","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_11","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_11.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  On behalf of Deputy Brennan, I ask the Minister to provide an update on the operation of MyFutureFund, the automatic enrolment saving scheme. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  The programme for Government contained a commitment to introduce the automatic enrolment, AE, retirement savings system. The aim of introducing AE is to address the pension coverage gap that exists in Ireland and to provide workers with greater comfort and security regarding their retirement income. MyFutureFund was commenced on 1 January 2026. All elements of the system are operating as planned. The employer and participant website portals are fully functional and there is a very high level of compliance by employers registering for the scheme and remitting contributions.  Since 1 January, based on analysis of payroll data from Revenue, over 835,000 employees have been automatically enrolled in MyFutureFund. These employees work for approximately 112,750 employers. In addition, more than 9,000 employees have applied to join MyFutureFund voluntarily. Approximately \u20ac323 million of contributions have already been collected for investment with the three contracted investment managers. This includes the employer and the State top-ups, meaning contributors have already seen a 133% increase in their fund over and above their personal contribution. In years to come, with these expected investment returns and top-ups, participants should continue to see their funds accumulate to deliver a significant savings pot for their retirement.  The National Auto-Enrolment Retirement Savings Authority, NAERSA, is the statutory body responsible for the administration of MyFutureFund. It is running a campaign on social media, print, radio and TV highlighting the benefits of MyFutureFund for participants. Alongside this, my Department will continue to work closely with NAERSA to ensure awareness of the scheme, the easy administration for employers, and the benefits of saving for retirement for employees. I thank the staff and board of NAERSA for their exception work on the introduction of MyFutureFund, and all the team within my Department, particularly Mr. Tim Duggan who led the work and is just retiring as assistant secretary. I thank him not just for his work on automatic enrolment but his contribution to the State generally. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  I join with the Minister in those comments. The establishment of the auto-enrolment scheme was a very significant measure. It had been spoken about for many years. Provision for people's future retirement is incredibly important and auto-enrolment makes it easier for people to make that decision. There is an opportunity to opt out of the scheme. While we have very significant numbers enrolled in the scheme, we want to make sure those numbers do not decrease as time goes on. I encourage the Minister's Department to do everything it can to communicate the benefits of involvement in this scheme or any other pension scheme. We must ensure that people plan for their future and have that greater degree of financial independence. I ask the Minister about ongoing participation in the scheme and how the Department is monitoring those numbers. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  It has been very successful so far. A Revenue analysis shows that 835,000 workers have been automatically enrolled. Over 9,000 have joined the scheme voluntarily and 112,750 employers are involved. Contributions thus far total \u20ac323 million. As I have said, the National Automatic Enrolment Retirement Savings Authority is running a campaign outlining the benefits of MyFutureFund. That will continue as the opt-out process opens. I know people are under pressure. I am very conscious of that pressure but I made the point during the run-in to the introduction of MyFutureFund that, if you get to the age of 66 and have no retirement plan in place, you will face a massive drop in income. Going from \u20ac48,000 or \u20ac50,000 a year to \u20ac16,500, which is what the State contributory pension provides, is an extraordinary drop. MyFutureFund gives those 835,000-odd people a substantial cushion to alleviate the impact of that drop. That is what it is about. It is about looking to your retirement, when you will not be earning the kind of money you may be earning today, and making provision for that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  I appreciate that. I reiterate my point on ensuring that people remain within the scheme. I was recently at an apprenticeship fair and one of the people encouraging people to take up apprenticeships indicated that, by participating in the workforce earlier, they would be contributing to their pensions for a much longer period than people who went on to third level. The numbers are staggering. Whenever you start paying into your pension, those extra few years make a huge difference. That is the reason the auto-enrolment scheme is so important. It is the reason it will have a real impact over decades. It is also why I want to ensure that we retain as many people as possible within the scheme and that the benefits are communicated. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  As I have said, the benefits are very much there. Somebody at the age of 23 may feel they are a long way from the age of 66. Looking around the room, I do not see anybody in that space. I assure the Members I am talking about the age of 66. However, it does happen. You get there very quickly and you do not notice it. We genuinely do have a major gap in pension coverage in this country. It is fine now, when we have four workers for every person over the age of 66, but, by the time we get to 2050, which is not that far away, we will have two workers for every such person. I reiterate that the State pension will continue to be the bedrock of our pensions system but we also have to ensure that people have adequate income provision for their retirement years. That is what MyFutureFund is about. We are the last country in the OECD to do this. That is not something to be proud of but it has allowed us to learn from systems across the OECD and from mistakes that were made. We have tried to ensure that our system is user-friendly and that it supports participants and delivers the outcomes we want. The figure of 835,000 enrolees has shown that to be right. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"State Savings Schemes"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_12","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Employment Schemes","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_8","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_12","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_12.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John McGuinness  On behalf of Deputy Malcolm Byrne, I ask the Minister to give us an update on the workings of the wage subsidy scheme and any other initiatives that are available to employers and those who have intellectual disabilities and need employment. I believe there is scope to improve the wage subsidy scheme, to include others and to encourage employers to participate more fully. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  I thank Deputy McGuinness for raising this matter. Supporting disabled people and reducing the disability employment gap are key priorities for me. The wage subsidy scheme is the key disability employment support provided by my Department. It aims to encourage employers to offer substantial and sustainable employment to disabled people through a subsidy.  In 2024, the Department published a review of the wage subsidy scheme following a public consultation. We aimed to make the scheme more accessible and more flexible. As a result, the minimum hours were reduced from 21 hours per week to 15 and the scheme was expanded to the community and voluntary sector and the non-commercial semi-State sector. In addition, we changed the language of the scheme to align with the social model of disability.  One of the recommendations made was to regularly review the subsidy rate. The national human rights strategy for disabled people also includes a commitment to examine an increase in the subsidy rate. The rate was reviewed in the context of budget 2026. As a result, the number of bands was reduced and the subsidy rates were increased. The base wage subsidy paid to employers who employ disabled people is now \u20ac7.50 per hour, an increase from \u20ac6.30. Employers who employ 25 or more employees on the wage subsidy scheme can still avail of a grant of \u20ac30,000 towards the cost of employing an employment assistance officer. Budget 2026 also provided for the expansion of the scheme to those who acquire a disability while in employment, those who have a progressive or degenerative condition that worsens, and those who transfer from invalidity pension to partial capacity benefit.  We hope these changes encourage more employers to hire more disabled people to increase uptake of the scheme and I am engaging with employer organisations to this end. Later this morning, I will attend the Light the Way event hosted by MrPRICE, one of our leading providers of employment for disabled people that work with the wage subsidy scheme. I have also made administrative changes to the wage subsidy scheme to centralise processing to ensure a more consistent and quicker service for those employers that are in receipt of a subsidy under the scheme. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John McGuinness  Does the Minister believe enough is being done to inform employers of the scheme, its benefits and how it assists both employers and those who have an intellectual disability? Does more need to be done to promote the scheme? I come across a lot of people who have intellectual disabilities or acquired disabilities who would like to return to the workforce to do some work and whose health would benefit from being involved in the workforce and working a meaningful number of hours per week. If more was done to promote and expand the scheme, perhaps working with family resource centres and organisations like Talking Heads in Carlow, more employers would take up the scheme. There are plenty of people in the disability sector who would be willing to engage. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  I completely agree with the Deputy. Last year, we ran an overall information campaign about the wage subsidy scheme. This involved normal advertising. It led to a very small increase. We met on this issue this week. I intend to target chambers of commerce, which have a very direct connection to local businesses. Many national businesses support and use the programme. I want to see more local businesses involved because local visibility is important. I will certainly expand our outreach to include family resource centres. If any Deputy would like to suggest organisations that have a local reach and that can get us into local businesses, I am more than happy to work with them. We will be engaging. We are setting up meetings with local business organisations. We deal with the employer organisations on this matter. I want to involve organisations that have more local connections to employers and that can engage with them. I acknowledge the many local employers who do excellent work on this. As a Department, we will be running a themed week in October, work and skills week. This will look at the employment vacancies that are available and matching those with disabilities to those vacancies. Any employer that does not engage with the wage subsidy scheme is missing out on a really talented bunch of people. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John McGuinness  I encourage the Department to have an open day where employers can come and meet those who have a disability or those with an acquired disability to see how they can match those who want work with their companies. There are many organisations that are now funded to prepare young people in particular but anybody who is disabled or intellectually disabled to encourage them back into the workforce and to give them the tools necessary to contribute to that work. The employers do not see enough of that interaction and enough of what is available to them from this whole disability sector. I refer to the Talking Heads organisation in Carlow and Kilkenny and to those with acquired brain injuries and disabilities. Much more needs to be done to give them the opportunity to come back into the workforce. They have something to contribute. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  Again, I do not disagree. We have a designated employment personal adviser in the 62 Intreo offices nationwide for disabled people to meet and discuss employment options. I have changed the work and access scheme. The work and access scheme offers seven different supports to facilitate those with disabilities in the workforce. I changed it to include assistive technology, which is a new thing. In May 2026, there were 1,568 employers supporting 2,621 employees through the wage subsidy scheme. That is not enough. We have the worst disability employment gap in Europe. I am determined to address it and make changes to address it. It will also be a key part of my priorities during the European Presidency, as to how we can learn from Europe. There may be areas that Europe can learn from us in the context of reducing this gap. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Employment Schemes"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_13","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Social Welfare Benefits","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_8","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_13","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_13.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Colm Burke  I very much welcome that a large number of additional people will benefit from increases in the carer's allowance means test threshold, which comes into place on 1 July. Has the Minister engaged with the Minister for Health and her Department to ensure that carer's allowance income will not be included under the medical cards means test, so that those who benefit from the expanded threshold will not be at risk of losing their medical card? I ask him to make a statement on the matter. I have heard from a number of people who have decided not to apply until the issue is clarified. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  I thank the Deputy for his question.  The programme for Government contains a commitment to continue to significantly increase the income disregard for carer's allowance across a series of budgets with a view of phasing out the means test over the lifetime of the Government. Budget 2026 has increased the earnings disregard for carer's allowance to \u20ac1,000 for a single person and \u20ac2,000 for a couple. Those changes will be effective from July this year. These are the largest ever increases in the carer's allowance income disregards and are evidence of our determination to deliver on our commitment to carers.  Since 2022, the disregard will have increased cumulatively by \u20ac667.50 per week for a single person and by \u20ac1,335 per week for a couple. This measure will benefit both those current recipients who are on means-reduced rate and who will see an increase in their payment rate and those people making new claim applications who otherwise would have been subject to a means-reduced rate in 2026.  On foot of the increases in the carer's allowance income disregards, a single person providing full-timer care, who also does part-time work this year, will be able to earn just over \u20ac54,000 and receive a full carer's payment. Similarly, for a couple household, a person who is providing full-time care and where their partner earns approximately \u20ac108,000 per annum will receive a full carer's payment. In its recent report, Family Carers Ireland acknowledged the significant progress made in increasing income disregards for carer's allowance. It stated that 68% of households are now falling within the financial eligibility criteria.  We are still looking at what the estimated take up will be. For budget purposes, we have prepared estimates on the basis that approximately 3,000 carers nationally will benefit. Given that the scheme is demand led, and it is likely that many who are outside the means test would have not have previously applied for carer's allowance, it is very difficult to estimate the potential inflow from this measure with certainty. We will engage with the Minister for Health around the Deputy's proposal on the means test. It certainly was an issue that was raised with me on 7 May at the carer's forum in relation to supports for carers. Supports for carers, including the medical card and respite, are highlighted in the Family Carers Ireland's state of caring report. The Minister, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, is somebody who is very supportive of our work in this space. We will engage with her. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Colm Burke  I very much welcome the Minister's reply. However, where I am coming from is about the people who are marginally outside under the old scheme who now qualify under the new changes that the Minister has made. I very much welcome those changes because people who are providing care in the home for their immediate family or for relatives are providing a fantastic service. What I am concerned about now is where people are pulling back from applying because they are afraid of losing their medical card. That is extremely important to them, especially for anyone who is providing care but also has their own medical challenges and are still well able to provide that care. That is why I am looking for clarification. As the Minister knows, the qualifying criteria for medical cards has not changed for quite some time. That is another issue that needs to be reviewed but that is not under the Minister's Department. Can we get clarification before 1 July on this issue? It is going to affect quite a number of people who will not put in the application at this stage. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  To be clear, the medical card means test is a matter for the Department of Health and the HSE. It is not a matter for the Department of Social Protection. Our commitment in relation to carers is increasing the income disregard with a view to phasing out the means test for carers between now and 2029 - the lifetime of the Government. There is the carer's support grant and increasing the weekly rates for that income for carers. I assure the Deputy that I will engage with the Minister in relation to the forthcoming increase in the income disregards. I share his concern that those who qualify are not taking it up. This is not just with carers but across a number of schemes. I want to ensure that those who can qualify for this can take it up without fear of losing other benefits. Those who are performing carer duties do exceptional work. We need to make their lives a lot easier and take the complications away. We will definitely engage with the Minister, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, in relation to this urgently in the context of 1 July. She is very committed and is very supportive of work in relation to the income disregards. She is very committed to the work of family carers. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Colm Burke  I very much welcome the reply. The changes that are coming into effect on 1 July are very good. There are a huge number of people who provide a good standard of care in the home rather than people having to go into full-time residential care in nursing homes. They are providing an invaluable service. It is important that we make sure that we tick all the boxes and that they are discouraged from continuing to provide that care because they qualify for the allowance but they are afraid of applying for it as they are afraid of losing their medical card. That is an issue that we need to get clarification on. Again, I thank the Minister for the work that has been done in this area and the number of additional people who are now going to come in under the qualifying criteria, so they can get the carer's allowance in support of the work that they are doing. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  I reiterate to the Deputy that we will engage with the Minister, Deputy Carroll MacNeill. We are looking at all of our schemes to see what is stopping people from applying. At the start of the session this morning, Deputy O'Reilly raised other points in that space. I am open to feedback in relation to that. As we go to a situation where somebody on \u20ac108,000 can still access the full carer's payment, we obviously have issues that not everybody is applying for it. I am going to drill down on those issues. We will the carer's organisations, Family Carers Ireland and the carer's allowance to increase awareness of the income disregards being increased in the manner that they are. Many people may not be aware of that income disregard, particularly carers. One point that is consistently made to me, and to all of us, is that carers often do not have the time to look at this kind of information because they are so busy, focused and engaged in their caring role.  We have to work with the organisations and family resource centres in every way to get the information about the supports available out to people. I will engage with the Minister for Health on the matter. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Social Welfare Benefits"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_14","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Children in Care","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_8","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_14","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_14.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  Matters relating to foster care are the responsibility of my colleague the Minister, Deputy Foley. However, the Government acknowledges the very important role of all carers, including foster carers. We remain fully committed to supporting them.  Once the minimum requirement of ten years' paid contributions is met, the State contributory pension system provides a range of measures to recognise caring periods outside of paid employment. These include PRSI credits, homemaking disregards and home caring periods. Homemaking disregards and home caring periods recognise caring periods of up to 20 years outside of paid employment in the calculation of a payment rate. Foster carers are entitled to benefit from these measures on the same basis as other family carers and parents. Questions of equity would arise if access to pension benefits was afforded to any of these groups, including foster parents and carers, on a preferential basis.  Since January 2024, long-term carer's contributions can be awarded to those who have cared for incapacitated persons for a period of 20 years or more. These contributions are treated the same as paid contributions for State contributory pension entitlement only and can be used to fill any gaps in a person's contribution record, including satisfying the minimum ten years of paid contributions required for eligibility. Foster carers who have cared for an incapacitated dependent or dependents for over 20 years also benefit from this provision. These measures assist foster carers to access the State pension system and recognise the years spent caring for children in the same way as biological or adoptive parents while ensuring that our pension system remains sustainable.  Changes to any aspect of the State pension system have to be considered in the overall policy and budgetary context including the sustainability of the Social Insurance Fund. I am very much aware of the importance of their work. I am happy to work with the Deputy on any proposals he may have in this space over the lifetime of the Government. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed  There are nearly 4,000 foster parents in Ireland who open their homes long term to children who often come from difficult and traumatic starts in life. The Minister has met them, as have I. It is a vocation for those families. At times, I wonder how they do it because of the workload involved, but they are really committed. Part of the challenge is that the number seems to be dwindling. There were over 4,000 a few years ago. Now, there are 3,800 foster parents who have 6,000 children in their care. I do not want to see a move away from a really good family-based environment for those children either back into institutional care or into private care where they will lose the family connection built up with those children. Everything we can do to encourage parents to get involved and keep them in that area is to be welcomed and explored. I appreciate the challenged the Minister set out but looking at pension provision should be part of that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  I agree; an extraordinary service is provided. It gives stability and changes outcomes which would otherwise be very different. Tusla manages the foster parent-foster carer system. It pays the foster carer allowance which is \u20ac400 per week for per child under 12 and \u20ac425 per child 12 or over. That is to offset expenses. Accordingly, it does not affect tax. It is not assessed as a means for social assistance payments. We will look at further supports but anything we do in the State pension context has to have the overall sustainability of the State and equity in mind. I would love to be able to give the Deputy a guarantee around that but I have to look at those elements as well in terms of our pension system and facing the challenges we discussed in the previous discussion with Deputy McAuliffe. I agree with the Deputy on the vital work being done. The Minister, Deputy Foley, worked closely with me in relation to this matter. We want to continue to work with foster carers. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed  I welcome the Minister's comments and the commitment to the effect that he and the Minister for children, Deputy Foley, will continue to look at and develop this area. To come at it from the children's perspective, the CSO analysis of children who come through foster care shows they have higher rates of absenteeism from school, leave school earlier and their educational achievement generally is lower. Everything we can do to support these children, who have had a really difficult start in life, is to be considered and welcomed. I come at it from the point of view of the foster carers. I know things like the back-to-school clothing and footwear allowance may be an option for consideration. I would welcome all of the supports we can consider to try to make the provision of support for those children a little easier.  I accept the Minister's comments in relation to pensions, the integrity of the pension system and how important it is to manage that, but I hope the Government and the Minsters will consider this matter in the round, seek to make progress and see if there are ways it can be developed for foster carers in the future to keep the family-based service going well. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  We made changes last year in relation to the back-to-school clothing and footwear allowance. Where we can, we will continue to do that. From the perspective of the children fortunate enough to receive foster care, it is a changer for them. Many have gone through multiples of carers and generations so it is an area I am looking at.  I am also looking at the area of kinship. Along with Deputy McGreehan, I met the Kinship Care Ireland last year. We want to see how we can do more to support that but I would not like to give false expectation either. There are many complex issues around pensions and eligibility we are trying to work through. We have to work through them with the overall sustainability of our pension system in mind. We will work with the Deputy and the Minister, Deputy Foley. Tuigim c\u00e9 chomh t\u00e1bhachtach is at\u00e1 an obair seo le haghaidh na tuismitheoir\u00ed seo. Caithfimid seasamh leo. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Children in Care"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_15","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Social Welfare Schemes","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_8","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_15","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_15.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  The programme for Government contains a commitment to protect core welfare rates while ensuring that available resources are targeted at vulnerable groups. It also includes a commitment to examine key ancillary benefits, including the fuel allowance, household benefits package and living alone allowance to support vulnerable groups. This is an ongoing activity as part of the Department's budget planning each year. As part of budget 2026, I increased the weekly rate of fuel allowance by \u20ac5 which increased the weekly rate payable by 15% from \u20ac33 to \u20ac38 a week or \u20ac1,064 per fuel season. In addition, in March I extended the 2026-27 fuel allowance season by four weeks, which added an extra \u20ac152 to households in most need of support and increased the fuel season amount to \u20ac1,216 for this year. Estimated expenditure on the scheme in 2026 is \u20ac557.4 million.  The household benefits package comprises the electricity or gas allowance and the free television licence, with an annual payment of \u20ac580 per recipient. The Department will invest approximately \u20ac317 million this year in this package. The living alone allowance is a supplement to a primary social protection payment of \u20ac22 per week, \u20ac1,144 a year, made to people aged 66 or over in receipt of certain social welfare payments and who are living alone. The estimated cost of the living alone allowance this year is \u20ac298 million.  In budget 2026, we extended the fuel allowance to all recipients of the working family payment. This benefits some 50,000 families. In addition, from September, those moving from disability allowance or blind pension to take up employment will continue to receive their fuel allowance for five years after exiting their payment.  These improvements, which are targeted, have resulted in many more households qualifying for the payment and have resulted in the budget for the scheme increasing to an estimated \u20ac557.4 million in 2026 compared with \u20ac290.4 million in 2020. I will continue, as part of the budget planning process, to examine improvements to key ancillary benefits. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Colm Burke  I very much welcome that over \u20ac28.9 billion is being provided in range of areas via budget 2026. There is a concern, however - and this was outlined this morning on \"Morning Ireland\" - that we may soon have an inflation rate of 5%. That is on the upper end of the scale. Because the cost of fuel and hearing are both increasing, we need to take action to keep pace with that in order to ensure that we have adequate supports for people who are vulnerable and who are very much dependent on the social welfare system. It is in this context that I am asking about whether the review has occurred and what we need to do in the context of planning forward, especially for budget 2027. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  Absolutely. We will be looking at those targeted supports. This year, we have increased the fuel allowance rate by \u20ac5 per week and extended the season by four weeks. Most importantly, we sponsored the working family payment in order that those on low incomes can access the fuel allowance payment. We ensured that we backdated this to 1 January. That is the kind of area I want to look at in the context of targeting payments to support those under the most pressure and, in particular, to support, as we have discussed at considerable length this morning, those in receipt of the living alone allowance. Anomalies in this regard have been highlighted by Deputies Burke, McAuliffe and O'Reilly. We want to look at those.  There are a lot of areas in which we can iron out difficulties. As Deputy Hayes stated earlier, the living alone allowance and the fuel allowance affect people in different ways. We have to make sure that we try to ensure consistency. That will be part of our overall budgetary process, but that is done within a very tight financial window in view of the other challenges the Department faces. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Colm Burke  I fully understand that. As was stated earlier, I have a number of people who are living in rural areas - the position would be the same in the Minister's constituency - in circumstances where there are two old-age pensions coming into the household. If one of the parties dies, there is a sudden drop in income. However, the cost of heating and travel for those individuals remain substantial. This is a huge challenge, especially for people in rural areas. The matter needs to be looked at very carefully. I fully understand that there will be many demands in healthcare and other areas in the context of the forthcoming budget, but this is something we need to keep pace with in order to ensure that people who are in receipt of social welfare supports do not lose out because of the inflation that is either going to occur or that has occurred over the past 12 months. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  The incidences the Deputy cites relate to an area I am very focused on and concerned about, namely where a person loses their partner and then faces a massive and sudden drop in income while the bills remain the same. We will be looking at all of our schemes in that context. This year, we have taken action to increase the fuel allowance and expand the scheme. On foot of the war in Iran, we expanded the season by four weeks. That is a very targeted payment. I do not know if the Deputy was here earlier for the discussion on how we target that and how we can ensure that it is targeted more by allowing people the choice to spend the money on whatever energy source they want. The position with the living alone allowance is similar. There has been an increase since 2019, and an increase in the overall budget, which is substantial, but still not enough people are getting access to it and too many are left facing a cliff edge and a financial challenge at a time of huge personal loss and grief. We need to do something in that regard, because this is not the right way to have it. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Social Welfare Schemes"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_16","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Social Welfare Benefits","counts":{"speechCount":10,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_8","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_16","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Maxwell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_16.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Maxwell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy David Maxwell)  Is Deputy Murphy taking this question on behalf of Deputy Boyd Barrett? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  Yes. I am fairly certain it was emailed in. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Maxwell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy David Maxwell)  There is no request in front of me, but that is okay. Away you go, Deputy Murphy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  This question relates to the cost-of-disability payment. Obviously, a big political issue over the past six months was the cut in the budget of \u20ac1,400-plus for disabled people and the call for emergency cost-of-living disability payments. In response, the Government stated that it is working on a cost-of-disability payment and is going to introduce it in budget 2027. The Minister had promised to bring forward a concrete proposal by the end of the month, but this has not appeared yet. Where is it? Will the Minister guarantee that it will be included in budget 2027? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  I am not in position to discuss in detail any measures that will be in budget 2027. Work is under way in relation to that, and the details have to be discussed within Government. However, we have made it clear that we recognise that there are significant additional costs which disabled people face in their daily lives. We are committed to addressing this as a priority over the term of this Government. That is why we have the commitment to introduce the permanent cost-of-disability payment. This initiative will add to work done in the context of budget 2026. As part of an overall package of \u20ac1.15 billion for new social protection measures, expenditure in respect of disabled people and their carers was increased to just over \u20ac6 billion per annum. The budget contained significant targeted measures to support disabled people, including increases to core welfare rates, the largest ever increase in the child support payment, the largest ever increase in the income disregard for carer's allowance, increases in the rate of the domiciliary care allowance and improvements to the wage subsidy scheme.  In the national human rights strategy, there was a commitment to establish a strategic focus network summit on the cost of disability. Considerable work is under way in this regard. We hosted a summit at the Aviva Stadium on 13 May. Last week, I spent an hour and a half with the joint Oireachtas committee discussing the cost-of-disability payment. A public consultation payment process ahead of the summit on the cost of disability received over 1,100 submissions. I will shortly bring to the Government the report relating to the summit, the submissions made and details of the interaction with the Oireachtas committee last week. Given the high level of submissions, work on this matter is continuing. I would like to thank the team in my Department who are giving considerable attention to it.  The submissions request that universal payment be made to all people with disabilities, but with a recognition that a differentiated approach could be developed over time to reflect the fact that some forms disability give rise to higher challenges and costs than others. We are continuing to engage with disability groups. A specific workshop on disability matters was hosted as part of the national economic dialogue and we will continue to engage, including at our pre-budget forum on 1 July and with the network of disabled persons organisations that we have within the Department. I intend to bring a proposal to Government as part of my budget 2027 discussions. This is a priority for me. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  I do not question that the Minister knows the real impact of having a disability, and he knows the figures. He stated at the conference that the additional cost for households with a disabled person is up to \u20ac555 a week. I am sure the Minister knows that the official risk of poverty rates are 32.5%. When we take into account the cost of disability, however, this rises to over 65%, which is obviously immense. The issue is whether the Government is going to deliver on what it said in the context of the uproar, rightly, about the budget last year and that we were going to introduce this. The Minister told the conference he would bring a concrete proposal on a new cost-of-disability payment to the Department by the end of June. The Minister did not repeat that commitment in his answer here. I wonder will the Minister repeat it now. It does seem to me that the timeframe is very tight in terms of this actually being delivered for budget 2027. Disabled people cannot be asked to wait again for another budget, which I worry we are on track for. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  I will absolutely be bringing it to Government. I still hope to do so if not by the end of June then very early in July. That is a consequence of 1,100 people who participated, including three of the four political parties represented in the House at the moment. I cannot recall receiving a submission from the Deputy's party in relation to how it might work or with regard to making the tough choices as to how it might be paid and how it might be outlined. Sinn F\u00e9in and the Social Democrats are the two other parties that are represented here. On the day of the summit, we engaged with various groups to discuss how it could be paid.  To be absolutely clear, I cannot write the budget at this point. I wish I could and give the Deputy a guarantee on it. There will be very robust discussion, but I cannot make it any clearer that it is a priority for me to introduce a permanent payment and then to allow it to develop over the lifetime of this Government and future Governments.  We have people currently going through all the submissions to ensure that they are recognised, and I will be in a position to bring a proposal to the Government as a consequence of the budgetary process, but we are also very clear that we are going to engage with the disabled persons organisations, DPOs, and the representative organisations as part of that ongoing process. It will not be done in isolation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  The tough choices I am in favour of the Government making are putting a levy on data centres, putting a wealth tax on the multimillionaires and increasing corporation tax. They are the tough choices that we make in our budget proposals on an annual basis and in which we included a cost-of-disability payment for a number of years. They are better tough choices than forcing disabled people to live in poverty.  The Minister is saying that it will not be the end of June or early July any more. I presume he accepts that that is a very tight timeframe for a concrete proposal to make its way into a budget. The Minister made the point, and the point was made at the conference, that the cost would not be insignificant if a universal payment was introduced, which we support. This needs to be in the budget. There need to be measures to address the deep poverty that disabled people are sinking into. The figures are going to be worse reflecting this year's budget. I stress very strongly that this needs to be done as soon as possible, and it needs to be included in the budget. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  The Deputy's proposals would drive people into unemployment, reduce our tax bases and reduce our ability to actually address this because without a sustainable economy and without sustainable resources, we cannot make these kinds of payments. That is not a tough choice. The Deputy is making a choice that will impair our ability to address and assist people with disabilities.  What we are trying to do is have a programme that works and has a backup. We had 1,173 responses to the process. That was an extraordinary response, and each response has been gone through. There were 1,086 responses from individuals and 87 responses from groups and other organisations.  The Taoiseach, the T\u00e1naiste and the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, as the three Government leaders, attended the cost-of-disability summit on 13 May and are very much engaged in this process. They took time out of their diaries to engage with it and listen. We have done a lot of pre-work in relation to this. This will not be something that will be landed on colleagues in government when it comes, and I continue to work on this daily. We had a very good session of about an hour and half at the Oireachtas committee last week where we went through the proposals of other parties that were willing to put choices on the line in relation to this payment. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Questions Nos. 14 and 15 taken with Written Answers. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Maxwell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy David Maxwell)  We are nearly out of time. I will allow Deputy O'Reilly to ask the next question, with one response from the Minister. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Social Welfare Benefits"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_17","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Social Welfare Payments","counts":{"speechCount":3,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_8","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_17","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_17.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Louise O'Reilly  I thank the Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach for being very fair. I am taking this question on behalf of my colleague, Teachta Rose Conway-Walsh. It is to ask the Minister for Social Protection if he has plans to improve turnaround times on decisions regarding applications for supplementary welfare allowance to cover transport costs for going to hospital appointments for patients who may receive an appointment at short notice and do not necessarily have the time to wait for a decision. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Social Protection (Deputy Dara Calleary)  The answer is \"Yes\". I am going to engage with Deputy Conway-Walsh and any other rural TD, in particular, who may have other examples in this space. I am very much aware of people getting appointments at short notice and - this is a real bugbear of mine - people getting appointments at a time that they have to stay overnight the night before because they cannot get transport. I will engage directly with Deputy Conway-Walsh in relation to her proposal in this space. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Louise O'Reilly  Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an Aire. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Social Welfare Payments"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_18","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":false,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_18","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_19","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Public Transport","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_18","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_18","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_19","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louis O'Hara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_19.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louis O'Hara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Louis O'Hara  This question is in the context of the National Transport Authority, NTA, stating that it does not have money for further public transport expansion this year. Why has it been left in this position? I have a relevant local example in Athenry in my area. I know that the Minster is aware of the situation there. Will he touch on it? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Transport (Deputy Darragh O'Brien)  Sustained investment in the public service obligation, PSO, programme has driven record public transport use, with passenger numbers up 23% and continuing to grow this year, alongside an expanded network serving over 240 towns and villages. As demand rises and congestion issues remain, Ireland\u2019s public transport system has reached a pivotal point, with an increasing need for reliable services.  A fundamental reset in funding was required to place the PSO programme on a sustainable, long-term footing in line with the programme for Government commitment. Accordingly, the 2026 PSO allocation was structured to eliminate the need for supplementary in-year funding, providing greater certainty and stability for service delivery.  To underpin this, my Department secured an unprecedented \u20ac940 million allocation for PSO services in budget 2026, which was a 43% increase on the previous year. This significant investment provides a robust foundation to ensure that existing public transport services are delivered reliably and sustainably throughout the year, enabling the system to meet rising passenger demand and assist in absorbing growing operational costs.  The NTA is managing the 2026 allocation by prioritising delivery of existing programmes in line with operational readiness and resources. Enhancements within the current allocation are prioritised. Some changes are cost neutral while others require additional resources, and all are subject to funding, readiness and capacity.  Funding for new services in 2027 will be determined through the annual Estimates process, which we will be entering into shortly. Within the constraints of the reliable resources available, the NTA will be responsible for prioritising its service plan, taking into account operational readiness, demonstrated and anticipated passenger demand, and the need to deliver value for money. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louis O'Hara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Louis O'Hara  This reset the Minister is talking about means fewer new services. That is what the NTA is saying, and the impact of that is massive. I know the impact of it in Athenry, and the Minister knows the story there, where we have been promised a PSO bus service for the past two years since the previous service ended. We still do not have that bus service.  We have been told that the 6.50 a.m. train, the only early morning train service at around that time between Athenry and Galway, is ending in six weeks' time at the end of July due to a lack of funding. Athenry is a large and growing town with a population of over 5,000 people. We have Dexcom now and up and running in the town, and many people commute in and out of Galway city. There are serious problems on rail services, with dangerous overcrowding at peak times.  We are being left waiting for these services. We are being told that the money is not there for the new bus services or to maintain this vital, early morning train service. There is no justification for us being left to wait any longer. I presented the Minister with a petition signed by 1,700 people within Athenry calling for these services to be maintained. Will the Minister ensure that that happens? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darragh O'Brien  The 6.50 a.m. service is not going. Let us be clear on that. I know that the Deputy has been running a bit of a campaign locally. The 6.50 a.m. train service will be retained; end of story.  What I was trying to explain in my answer was that we got a big uplift in PSO funding. For the past five years in the Department of Transport, a big supplementary budget was requested at the end of the year to basically backfill new services. I did not want to do it that way, which is why we got a big uplift - a 42% increase - in the PSO allocation to stabilise those services across this year. We are now entering into the annual Estimates process, and I will obviously be looking for additional funding in that space to provide those new services that many Deputies are asking for and that I am looking for in my area, but we need them to be set up on a sustainable footing. We have managed to do that this year. There are resource constraints too, but this year is a stabilisation year. Even though we are seeing increasing passenger numbers, which is great, I want to provide additional services, and that is why we are entering the Estimates process shortly to provide additional funds next year to roll out new services. This year has been a year to stabilise the services that we have added to already. I have taken on board a lot of the different feedback I have got from Deputies about specific services and that will be in the NTA service plan. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louis O'Hara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Louis O'Hara  I welcome the Minister's commitment on the 6.50 a.m. train. I ask that that be communicated to the NTA and Irish Rail as well, that clarity is provided to them on that. The responses I am getting have not reflected that until now but I welcome the Minister's comments on the matter today. If additional funding is forthcoming, of course that will be very welcome as well but my question is on when that will happen. In terms of Athenry, we have been waiting two years for that promised bus service. The NTA says that while it does not have any additional funding, it cannot implement that service. My big question, then, is: when that will happen? It is urgent for Athenry and, I am sure, for many other areas across the State where there are real constraints in terms of public transport capacity. I urge the Minister to ensure that this happens very quickly. The NTA wants to be able to provide more services. We all know that public transport has become increasingly popular but people want to be able to rely on it and they should be supported to do so. We need the commitment from the Government and, crucially, the funding to do that. I ask the Minister to provide clarity on when we can expect that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darragh O'Brien  I have spoken on the record of the House about the 6.50 a.m. train. The Deputy has raised it. Deputy Albert Dolan has raised it with me as well. That service is being retained, and I will relay that information. I am not sure how it got to the stage where there was uncertainty around it.  The broader point, which I have explained, is that about \u20ac1.6 billion is the operational cost of our public transport network across the board, most of that being PSO and fares. That is what it costs to run what we have, which is a greatly expanded public transport service, including Local Link services, trains and buses, right the way through our whole network. What I am doing now with the Ministers of State, Deputies Buttimer and Canney, is entering into the Estimates process for next year. Now that we have stabilised an increased service, which is good, and we have seen significant increases, we have a much higher base. We will seek additional funds for 2027 in order that we can roll out those additional services in 2027, subject to the NTA's service delivery plan. That is my intention. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Public Transport"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_20","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Bus Services","counts":{"speechCount":10,"speakerCount":5},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_18","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_18","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_20","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louis O'Hara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_20.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Whitmore  Can the Minister give me an update on the Local Link 199 service and when it is due to start? It was actually meant to start last September. A bus has been purchased for it. Drivers are in place. The community really needs this bus service up and running. There is very much a lack of clarity because the Government says one thing and the NTA says the other. Can we have a start date for this service this morning? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darragh O'Brien  I thank the Deputy for raising this issue again. I know there is a campaign on the ground supported by her. This is an important service that we want to get into use. I mentioned in my previous answer that this year has been a year to ensure that we got an increase in the PSO funding, which is very significant.  There has been considerable investment in services throughout the country under the Connecting Ireland Rural Mobility Plan. I think everyone is agreed that has been a real success. I have met many of the Local Link services across the country. The plan is improving how rural communities access public transport. I am pleased to state that passengers are responding to this continued investment, with TFI Local Link services recording a combined 6.97 million passenger journeys just last year, marking a record and a 19% increase on the previous year. That is just short of 7 million journeys.  In counties Wicklow, Carlow and Kilkenny, funding increased by 25% between 2024 and 2025 to over \u20ac4.6 million, boosting passenger numbers by 81%. A great example of this can be seen in route 183, which was enhanced from Arklow to Sallins. The enhanced route offers connectivity to Avoca, Rathdrum, Rathnew, Wicklow, Roundwood and Laragh and improved connections to regional public transport, including a morning connection to Arklow.  The PSO allocation, as I mentioned earlier, has risen to \u20ac940 million. That is 43% up on 2025's allocation. I want that on a sustainable footing; I do not want to have to go back looking for supplementary funding every year. That is a record level of funding we have provided and that underpins the new routes we have brought forward. It is a priority to roll out the 199 service, which is part of the NTA's service plan. The service is subject to the same considerations around funding.  To be straight, I expect that, as part of the Estimates process, with the additional funding we will receive, routes like the 199 service will operate from early next year. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Whitmore  I thank the Minister but that response just is not good enough. It just does not cut it. This service was to start last September. People have been relying on it. They have been making life decisions - dropping out of college, not able to get jobs in other parts - because they are relying on this service to go from, say, Roundwood to Bray. They were told it would happen in September. I am glad to hear the Minister say that it should happen from next January but what people need is an actual date. We have some members of the Government saying that an announcement was to be made last week and the NTA says there is no funding for this. There is a complete lack of clarity. This service needs to start at least in September because people in those areas cannot get to college or get to many of the schools they need to get to. To say now that there will be another six months' delay, following a year's delay, is just not good enough. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darragh O'Brien  I have outlined that this is an important service for people. I have outlined what has been done in just the past two years in relation to Local Link services in Wicklow. I think everyone acknowledges that there has been a significant increase. This route, this service, is a priority. I want to see it in place as soon as we can. I am trying to give a realistic timeframe for its implementation because the Deputy is right that people need certainty around it. They do not need to be told it might be next week and next week and next week. What I and the Minister of State, Deputy Buttimer, have been able to do is significantly increase the funding for these types of services to get this onto a sustainable footing, with a 42% increase and record public transport passenger numbers right the way across the country and continued growth. I want to grow that further. We are seeking additional funding for next year to roll out services like the 199. If I get additional funds this year - and it is an if - any of the services that we can roll out additionally we will do this year. I am trying to give the Deputy a realistic timeframe for her constituents. I am confident that we will be able to get this up and running early next year. We will be in our Estimates negotiations pretty soon. I want to get additional funding for that. We are looking at how that funding is made up between PSO and fares to be able to deliver new services like this, and the Deputy is right that people are responding to it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Whitmore  I do acknowledge that the Minister is trying to give a realistic date. I think that has been part of the problem: that people have been waiting week by week for this service to be rolled out. The difficulty, however, is that I was told in May last year that this service was funded, that the money was there for it. It was tendered and it was contracted. There is a bus sitting in Clonshaugh in Dublin empty, not running, waiting to be used on this service. Four drivers have been hired for this service. Everything is ready to go, and I do not understand how that funding is no longer there. I know the Minister is saying that he is trying to stabilise funding this year and next year and that new services will come in but this service was promised. Because we are coming into the start of a new school year and a new college year, I ask that the Minister try to find that funding for just four months of the year to get this running. It is ready to go. Literally, the bus is sitting there. I ask the Minister to try to find that funding to bridge that gap. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darragh O'Brien  I know people have been told this is funded. I know that the bus is purchased. People have been employed. If we can get it started earlier, we will do so. I will go back and specifically ask why that was advised previously. What the Minister of State, Deputy Buttimer, and I have tried to do - and I think we have done it pretty well - is to get that big uplift so we are starting from a higher base and then we can really be sustainable. As to what happened over the past five years, it was great to see the increases in services but there was no certainty around any of them----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  Correct. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darragh O'Brien  -----because it was just a matter of going in every year for additional moneys towards the end of the year. I will specifically and personally check this one out and I will revert to the Deputy. I am trying to give a realistic timeline and, in fairness, she has accepted that. If it can be done sooner, we will do it sooner because I know the bus has been purchased. Let us see what we can do in that regard and I will come back to the Deputy directly. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  Deputy O'Hara, are you taking Deputy Daly's questions? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louis O'Hara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Louis O'Hara  Yes. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Bus Services"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_21","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Rail Network","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_18","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_18","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_21","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louis O'Hara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_21.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louis O'Hara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Louis O'Hara  I ask the Minister to provide an update on the replacement of the State's rail traffic management system; to provide an updated timeline for delivery; the projected costs for this; and to make a statement on the matter. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darragh O'Brien  The National Train Control Centre building was completed in November 2022, on time and within budget, despite significant disruption to the construction sector throughout the Covid pandemic. While the building today houses some signalling operations and Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann staff, as well as approximately 100 personnel of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na overseeing communications in the Dublin metropolitan region, bringing the centre into full operation has been delayed by slower-than-projected progress in developing and rolling out the new traffic management system, which is the software that integrates a range of complex railway systems, such as signalling and communications.  Taxpayers and train users are rightly concerned about this delay as I am too, I assure the Deputy. In my capacity as Minister, I have met with Indra, the contractor delivering the traffic management system. I met them last August and again in January of this year.  On both occasions, I expressed my clear dissatisfaction with the state of progress and emphasised the importance of bringing the project to a successful conclusion as quickly as possible.  A re-baselined programme was agreed between Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann, the NTA and Indra in November 2024, breaking the project into eight discrete commissioning phases to improve deliverability and realise benefits incrementally. The contractor delivered software to Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann in mid-April to support the planned implementation of commissioning phase 1 on the Rosslare line for early next year. A three-month software testing period is now ongoing. Decisions on software acceptance and future commissioning phases will be taken in mid-July, the middle of next month.  Given issues in terms of project delivery, I understand that the board of Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann is also considering potential options for the future delivery of the project. I await its recommendations, which I have not received yet. In advance of the conclusion of software testing and consideration by the Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann board, it would be premature to discuss schedule and cost implications for the project because I do not have that information yet. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louis O'Hara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Louis O'Hara  The \u20ac50 million that has been written off on this failed traffic management system represents a shocking waste of public money. The information given to the transport committee last week by Irish Rail showed that, for years, Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann staff expressed concerns about the ability of the contractor, Indra, to deliver this project. Despite these concerns, millions of euro continued to be put into this project. It demonstrates a real failure in project oversight.  I understand that, in mid-2025, Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann recommended to the NTA that the contract be terminated due to the ongoing delivery concerns, yet that contract is still in place. The Minister mentioned that he had met the contractor. I know the Department has been kept updated on this. Why was a stop not put to this contract, given all the evidence that Indra was failing to deliver it? What has the Minister done to ensure that costs are kept under control to avoid this waste of money? What is going to happen to this contract going forward, and how will the Minister ensure that costs are kept under control? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darragh O'Brien  It is a very important system. We need this system in place. It is not a question of just pulling the plug on it. It has to be managed through. I have said very clearly to Indra myself that I am most unhappy with the manner in which this is being delivered and the delays in the system.  In relation to the write-down amount, I note that the asset value of the national train control centre, NTCC, is also considered in the CI\u00c9 Group accounts for 2025. These accounts were received by my Department on 18 May and are currently being reviewed in the Department and by financial advisers in NewERA, and I expect to receive them shortly. I have not got them yet. I want to look into that in detail. It is my intention to bring the accounts to the Government and have them laid before the Oireachtas in the coming weeks.  Fundamentally, though, and regardless of who delivers this system, we need it. It is important for signalling and safety. The manner in which it is being brought about is far from acceptable, and that is putting it mildly. I am acutely conscious that the money we invest on behalf of our people has to be invested correctly and projects like this have to be delivered on time.  When I have further details on this, I will come back to the House. The accounts will be laid before the Oireachtas shortly. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louis O'Hara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Louis O'Hara  It is a very important project. It is clear from the evidence that Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann provided that the failure to deliver the system now risks the possibility of disruption to rail services. A sum of \u20ac50 million is an enormous amount of money. We just had a discussion about the lack of funding that was available for new public transport services, and \u20ac50 million would make a huge difference there and right across the public transport system in terms of the constraints that exist. The Minister needs to ensure that the costs are brought back under control, and that there is no risk to the safe operation of the rail network. The Minister should provide clarity on how we have got to this point and why this lack of oversight has been allowed to happen, as well as on what his own role has been in terms of oversight here.  Indra is also the contractor responsible for the delivery of the contactless payments on the public transport system, as part of next-generation ticketing. The cost of that programme is up to \u20ac269 million. Will the Minister confirm what actions he is taking to oversee that project as well? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darragh O'Brien  We are on track to deliver contactless payments. I have met Indra specifically about the contactless payments. That is critical for the public transport offering that we have across the country. Real-time testing rolls out on a phased basis next year, leading to a phased roll-out from 2028. That is a very intricate system. It has to operate in tandem with Leap as well, so we have to operate dual systems.  On this specifically, I want to be clear that from a rail safety perspective, contingency plans are in place to mitigate the impact of delays on the traffic management system. To safeguard the signalling resilience of the rail network, I approved an additional allocation of \u20ac5.7 million in May to enable Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann to commence additional signalling works to increase operational resilience within the greater Dublin area, the busiest part of our rail network.  When I have the accounts, when they are back from NewERA and that work is done, I will be assessing them. I do not micromanage every agency's budget. That is not my role. The NTA and Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann are supposed to manage that appropriately. I take this very seriously, though. I will be looking at the accounts when I receive them. I will be bringing them to the Cabinet. The figure that has been put out there may not be the figure. That is from what I have been told. That will be laid before the Oireachtas and it would be a good opportunity for the transport committee to further interrogate it as well. The main thing is we need the system delivered. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Rail Network"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_22","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Rail Network","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_18","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_18","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_22","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ciar\u00e1n Ahern","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_22.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darragh O'Brien  We are about to start MetroLink out in Dublin north. MetroLink to the south west would be another transformational project. I welcome the Deputy\u2019s question on this. If we want people choosing public transport instead of cars, which they are in many areas whether for cost, congestion or climate reasons, we need to provide an integrated transport network that lets people travel throughout the city. It is for this reason that we do not try to bring forward rail lines or routes in isolation but use the Greater Dublin Area Transport Strategy 2022-2042 to inform planning and development of public transport infrastructure in Dublin, including metro lines.  As the Deputy knows, the NTA has statutory responsibility for the transport strategy and must review it every six years, meaning that the next review is due to be concluded by 2028. As part of this review, the NTA will reassess the need for additional metro lines, among other transport options, in the greater Dublin area. This review will consider updated travel demand forecasts as well as changes in land use and spatial planning policies. This background analytical work is expected to commence over the next year. The feasibility study for a metro to south-west Dublin will be undertaken as part of this broader strategic review process. The Deputy will, I hope, understand that this approach will help ensure that it is considered in an integrated and holistic manner, alongside wider transport and spatial planning objectives for the greater Dublin area.  The projects we are delivering now include DART+ South West and DART+ West, DART+ Coastal North, the MetroLink and the extension to Luas lines, which we are doing at Luas Finglas.  As Deputy has noted, the programme for Government includes a commitment to undertake a feasibility study for a metro south west in Dublin. We will do that. The operative railway order for MetroLink was secured in January 2026. With this key milestone now achieved, attention is turning to the preparation of the review of the strategy. On this basis, I look forward to the upcoming review of the transport strategy with a specific focus on this potential new MetroLink line. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ciar\u00e1n Ahern","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ciar\u00e1n Ahern  I thank the Minister. Getting MetroLink built and even getting it started in earnest will be a fantastic legacy for him as a Minister for Transport. He will have the full support of the Labour Party and, I think, others in opposition in getting that done in as speedy a manner as possible. We know how vital it is for our city. I am asking that he does not just stop when he gets to Charlemont. We know these tunnel-boring machines are going to be in the ground. I ask that the line be continued on to Dublin South-West through Rathmines, Terenure, Rathfarnham, Knocklyon, Firhouse and Tallaght. There is a group in the Public Gallery from St. Colmcille's in Knocklyon. Maybe by the time they are my age, the line might actually be built.  This is not a new proposal. It is something Deputy Bacik has been requesting for a long time, as has the Metro South West Group. I understand that it needs to be done in a planned, integrated and sustainable manner. It makes sense to us that a line would not stop in the middle of the city but would continue out, and that this should be done in as efficient a manner as possible. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darragh O'Brien  It is a very good point. This year has been really significant in the delivery of metro. We have our full railway order and clean planning permission. It is out to tender and some of the enabling works have started already in the Swords area, with the realignment of the roads, and construction is to start next year.  On a MetroLink to Dublin South-West, I fully get what the Deputy is saying. This will be a six-to-eight-year build. While that is happening, this review will have been undertaken. MetroLink will be the first real integrated system. When it comes into the St. Stephen's Green area, it will integrate with heavy rail, intercity rail, DART and the Luas.  There are major opportunities to expand further. The Deputy can be assured that there will be a specific focus on this as part of the review. That review scoping work will start next year, with the review to be undertaken in 2028. We will start building MetroLink next year and that will be rolled out on a phased basis. The review will happen. I know the Deputy will continue to advocate for it and he will have my support. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ciar\u00e1n Ahern","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ciar\u00e1n Ahern  That is great. I thank the Minister for giving clear timelines. That will be much appreciated in the area. Dublin South-West has historically been underserved by public transport. We have a Luas line that starts in Tallaght but conspicuously avoids the rest of the constituency. We support the roll-out of BusConnects and would like to see that done as quickly as possible. There are some issues with routes, but broadly speaking we support that. As the Minister knows, no growing modern city can survive on bus routes alone. It requires light rail or a metro. Given the road space constraints in this particular area of the city, extending the metro through the city centre to Dublin South-West would make sense. As I said, a previous feasibility study ended the line in Knocklyon. It would make more sense for the line to go all the way to Tallaght whether has been a huge increase in population and new housing is being built all the time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darragh O'Brien  This is a very exciting time for public transport. This five-year period is a delivery period of major projects that people have heard and spoken about, including the expansion of the DART and, as I mentioned, DART+ West, DART+ South-West, DART+ Coastal North, Cork light rail, phase 1 of Cork commuter rail, which is concluding, and the commencement of MetroLink. These are transformational projects that are badly needed. A lot of them will deal with an infrastructural deficit that we have carried for a long number of years.  Thankfully, when we provide public transport options people use them. I welcome the support of the Labour Party for this project. Over the next year it is important that the Deputy and others in Dublin South-West and beyond engage with the NTA through the process of that review. We are commencing the construction and delivery of MetroLink, which will enable us to deliver further extensions to the MetroLink line, like what is being done with the Luas. I intend to bring Luas Finglas forward. Under the previous Government, the project was due in the mid-2030s. I think we can start construction in 2028. I use it as an example because it is an existing line that is being extended. The same can apply to this. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Rail Network"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_23","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Bus Services","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_18","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_18","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_23","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_23.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Roderic O'Gorman  I want to again raise with the Minister an issue that is close to my heart and the hearts of residents across Dublin 15, namely, the provision of the N8 orbital bus service, a new BusConnects service linking Blanchardstown with Dublin Airport. I want to tie down a commitment the Minister made on a previous occasion that the route will be up and running by the end of this year. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darragh O'Brien  That is what we are hoping to do. I want to again make it clear that the NTA is responsible for the provision, scheduling and timetabling of public transport services nationwide. The Deputy knows that. It works with operators to deliver these services.  I mentioned in response to earlier questions that we have secured a significant uplift in PSO funding, a 42% increase. I do not want to get back into supplementary budgets every year to provide services. We need certainty. The N8 route is planned to be implemented as part of phase 9 of the BusConnects Dublin network redesign programme. The exact implementation date for the route will be determined by funding provisions and operational readiness.  The route will run between Blanchardstown and Clongriffin via Dublin Airport. It will be critical to the Deputy's constituents. When the route is launched it will allow seamless and easy interchange with the W4 service which runs from Tallaght to Blanchardstown. I have answered the Deputy's question on a previous occasion. As soon as we can get funding for the route it will be a priority project. We have increased the funding. I still think we will be on track for later this year or early next year to roll out the service. If we can do it any sooner we will.  There has been a significant increase in public transport use. We have substantially expanded the service. Blanchardstown and the Dublin 15 area is a major growth area. It is in the service plan. We want to deliver it. As I have said before, I would like to deliver it by the end of the year. My position on that has not changed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Roderic O'Gorman  As the Minister knows, this route is long delayed. When I contacted the NTA in 2024, I was told it would be in place in 2025. When I asked about it in 2025, I was told it would be in place in 2026. When I asked about it earlier this year, I was told it would be in place in 2027. The Minister and I have discussed this route in the Chamber a number of times. He gave a strong commitment last time in terms of having the route delivered this year. I received a written reply from the Minister's Department on the same day which hedged somewhat and referred to 2026 or maybe 2027.  I am a bit concerned about what the Minister has said because I do not feel he was quite as committed to getting the route delivered this year. He raised a point about delivery of funding. I know he does not run the opening of individual routes day by day, but he is responsible for the money. I am unclear why the Minister is asking whether the money will be ready this year. He is the person with responsibility for whether there is money to deliver the N8 from Blanchardstown to Dublin Airport in 2026 to which he has committed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darragh O'Brien  To be fair to the Deputy, he has advocated for this. He mentioned he has been asking this question since 2024. The route was planned and approved before I came in as Minister for Transport. Having said that, in this year's budget we were able to secure \u20ac1.6 billion to run our public transport network. We have about \u20ac960 million in PSO, up 42% on the previous year, which gives us a much higher base.  I want to deliver the bus route this year. I have said that before. I do not have an exact date. As is the case with everything, it is subject to funding. In the Estimates process this year, I want to take another step up so that we can provide more new services across the country. This year has been very much about stabilising. I know how important the N8 is to the area. It will be a critical link and will also link to the W4 route. I will keep the Deputy fully informed as to the date when we can get the service.going. It is still my intention to get that started this year. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Roderic O'Gorman  The ongoing delay in the delivery of the N8 is emblematic of wider delays in the delivery of bus services. I refer in particular to my constituency. The B spine route has been delayed. A judicial review is ongoing and I understand is that is coming to an end. Large numbers of new houses are being built. The Minister and I were at the opening of new estates over the past number of years. Additional bus service in places like Hollystown, Tyrrelstown and Kilmartin Grove are important in terms of dealing with the housing crisis in our country, but those areas are not seeing an increase in the level of services and capacity. There is already pressure to extend the N8 to cover areas like Hollystown and Hollywoodrath so that people have links to the airport and other areas of high employment. Again, it comes down to the question of money and providing financial backing to open these new services. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darragh O'Brien  It does come down to money. The Deputy is absolutely right. When I came into the Department of Transport we were very short of money, including PSO funding. Over the term of the previous Government, every year there was a supplementary budget, that is, additional moneys added at the end of every year. We could not plan new services properly. My big focus this year was securing an increase of 43%, up to \u20ac940 million. That is a much higher base which means we move into next year with a higher level of funding to provide new services.  I know the area the Deputy has spoken of very well. As is the case in my area, it is a major growth area in the Fingal region providing thousands of new homes, something the Deputy and I want to do and worked hard to do. We are seeing more of that happen. Additional bus routes are critical in those areas that are wholly dependent on bus services to get into town. As I said, not for fear of repetition, it is my intention, working with the NTA, to get the route started this year. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Bus Services"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_24","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Public Transport","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_18","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_18","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_24","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_24.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Heneghan  I want to highlight the urgent need for increased investment in public transport, specifically in north Dublin. I have raised the roll-out of contactless payments and how it has been delayed until 2028 and the need for accurate live updates for when lifts are unavailable for people with mobility or disability needs. I want to ask the Minister about more frequent services, more carriages and the timeline for the roll-out of contactless payments. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Transport (Deputy Jerry Buttimer)  Our Department, the NTA and service operators are working hard to deliver improvements to public transport services, including contactless payments and late-night services. We have delivered significant improvements over the past number of years, which should be pointed out. I thank the Deputy for his advocacy and commitment to enhanced public transport. The continued roll-out of the BusConnects network redesign has given passengers across the greater Dublin area more late-night options that ever before. We now have 15 24-hour bus services operating seven days a week across the city.  That means the vast majority of the suburbs now have access to a daily round-the-clock bus service. It is a significant change from five years ago, when there was no 24-hour provision at all.  In addition, Dublin Bus operates 12 nitelink services between midnight and 4 a.m. on Friday and Saturday nights, linking the city centre to suburban areas during peak late-night demand. Most other Dublin Bus routes run until 11.30 p.m. daily. Go-Ahead Ireland operates 35 routes across Dublin, Kildare and Wicklow, with most running from morning until midnight. We also have the rail and Luas services running at capacity, with additional late-night trains provided, where possible, during peak periods.  We are acutely aware of the benefits these services bring. As the Minister said, it is about reliability and putting public service transport on a sustainable footing. The Deputy's question captures a fundamental shift we must engage in, as a society and on the part of service operators and providers. That shift relates to a movement towards early-morning and late-night working. We must think differently to address the needs of those workers, including workers in the night-time economy. The Deputy's question is a very pertinent one for all of us involved in this area. We have seen change, and more change is needed. I will say more about that in my supplementary response. The Deputy has asked a very good question. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Heneghan  My frustration with the current situation of ghost buses and infrequency of DART services certainly is one of the issues that got me involved in politics. I spoke this morning to a Clongriffin resident who had to run to the end of the platform and squeeze onto the train like a sardine to get to work. I understand there are restrictions on the lines in terms of the size of platforms and how many carriages can be installed but can the frequency of the service be increased? I know there is an unsolvable problem at Connolly Station but I have seen how efficiently run the transport system is in London. I do not have my head in the sky; I acknowledge we have a smaller population, that our country only recently became much wealthier and that we do not have the same infrastructure the UK has in place. However, we now have a lot more money and we have the ability and manpower to do this.  A concern is that even with MetroLink being rolled out, residents in north Dublin will still not be able to easily access the airport. The Minister of State will be well aware of the proposals for a monorail or a two-way system to connect the DART line to the airport, in conjunction with the metro, as an alternative solution. Will he comment on that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  The points the Deputy has raised are fundamental to our philosophy in terms of where we want to go with public transport. I was reflecting on that the other day when I was at Cork Airport, where there is an issue with the bus service. The Deputy is right that we need to think differently. The existing transport provision timetable has changed. The Minister is very much committed to bringing new electric and battery-electric trains on stream. Testing of that fleet is under way and we will see an enhanced offering.  The Deputy's fundamental point is about our relationship, as a country, with public transport. There are exciting things happening in Cork with the Luas and commuter rail service. We have seen that if we plan and take on board some of what the Deputy has articulated, we can get it right. The Minister, the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, and I are very much committed to what he is advocating this morning. It is about getting people out of their car and onto a bus or train. As the Minister noted, we are seeing record numbers using public transport. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Heneghan  I hope those record numbers continue to rise with the quick roll-out of contactless payment and better accessibility. I welcome the engagement on those matters.  I also welcome the increase in the upper age limit for school bus drivers. The community bus service in Dublin has been lost. The No. 88 bus used to be a feeder bus service for Howth and Sutton DART stations. It did a constant loop of Howth Peninsula. Restoring that route would offer safe and convenient transport for families, for children travelling to GAA and football games and to school and for people going to the graveyard in Howth. I ask that the Department give consideration to that. It should also look at providing small-scale bus links within the BusConnects system. In such local micro-systems, the bus is a community service where users see the same people every day. That has been lost in north Dublin. Bringing it back would really benefit people. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  I will take the Deputy's points back to the Department. As Minister of State with responsibility for rural transport, I am very aware of the success of Local Link services. There has been an exponential growth in the numbers using those services all across the country. Fundamentally, the Minister, the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, and I are all about ensuring sustainability and stabilisation to enable continued growth. The Deputy is right that the numbers using public transport will rise. The Minister made the point earlier that we are at a pivotal point in the development of our transport system. We welcome the growing demand but, as the Deputy has articulated, it has implications.  What we need to do now is take on the winnable parts of public transport provision. We must get rid of the urban congestion we see in many parts of our cities and towns. Resilience and reliability must be built into public transport. I look forward to working with the Deputy on these matters. I have taken notes on what he said and I will take them back to both the NTA and the Department. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Public Transport"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_25","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":false,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_25","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_26","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Rail Network","counts":{"speechCount":28,"speakerCount":4},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_25","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_25","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_26","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_26.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  Will the Minister provide an update on when he intends to approve and release the funding for DART+ South West, which is a vital public infrastructure project for Dublin Mid-West? It is urgently needed and it is greatly delayed. Public representatives and, crucially, people living along that rail corridor were deeply disappointed when the Minister made the announcement last year that he would not honour his predecessor's commitment to approve the funding and have the project start as a matter of urgency. I would welcome an update on the matter. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darragh O'Brien  The DART+ programme, including DART+ South West, is a priority investment for me as Minister and for the Department of Transport. Collectively, the programme will triple the length of the electrified Dublin commuter rail network and double its capacity, with customers starting to experience tangible benefits from the middle of next year when services to and from Drogheda come into operation. That is the first iteration of the programme.  In terms of DART+ South West specifically, a major milestone was cleared in November 2024 when the project secured full planning approval. Procurement for both DART+ South West and DART+ West is now progressing, with pre-qualification questionnaires for design and build works advertised for both in May 2025.  Last year, the national development plan allocated funding to advance DART+ West into construction from late next year. DART+ West must proceed first in terms of the infrastructure programmes, as it includes a new depot to house the expanded DART fleet and necessary city centre capacity upgrades to expedite the subsequent delivery of DART+ South West. The two projects are interlinked. The procurement approach will see supplier frameworks established across both projects for common project elements. That will enable us to advance the projects sooner. NDP funding was also allocated to commence the compulsory purchase order process for DART+ South West. That commenced in February this year.  I will continue to engage with colleagues on this project. It is my intention, through the frameworks I have outlined, to deliver elements of both projects together, including the depot. There is some scheduling to be done between the two projects but they are an absolute commitment for us and we intend to deliver them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  The problem is that what the Minister has described is a very different scenario from what was promised by his predecessor, who indicated that funding would be announced and approved in 2025 and the project would be completed by 2030. From all the conversations I am having with public transport providers, I do not accept that the electrified depot capacity is the problem. My view is that the Government simply is not willing at this point to commit the funding for DART+ South West. That means the project will not start until 2028 or 2029 at the earliest and possibly not until 2030. The hard-working people of Dublin Mid-West will then have to wait another four to five years, which takes us into the middle of the next decade.  I think the Minister is misleading the House and the public when he tries to link the refusal to bring forward the funding for this project as a matter of urgency to infrastructural provision elsewhere in the system. Can he at least tell us---- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  The Deputy's time is up. The Minister to respond. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darragh O'Brien  I have not misled the House. I do not do that and the Deputy should withdraw that comment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  The Minister is famous for it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darragh O'Brien  This is the first time the Deputy has come into the Chamber for transport questions to even ask about this project. He is feigning an interest in it. Other colleagues across other parties regularly advocate for this. The Deputy does not like good news and he does not like to see any progress on anything because it does not suit----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  When will we get the funding? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darragh O'Brien  -----his political narrative. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  When will we get the funding? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  Deputy \u00d3 Broin, allow the Minister to respond. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darragh O'Brien  I have missed the Deputy from my days in the Department of housing. He continues to barrack people all of the time. He lost that debate too, in the last general election. We are going to deliver this project. We have published an NDP that is fully funded. We are bringing the funding forward on this for DART+ West and DART+ South West. It is clear; I have said it and that is what is happening. There is no resiling from that whatsoever. This period of time is actually the delivery period for many transformational public transport projects right across the country. It might disappoint the Deputy to actually see those commencing and being delivered because it gives him less to give out about. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  I would be more than happy to commend the Minister and welcome an actual announcement on the actual date the funding is going to be released. I would even write him a personal letter of thanks on behalf of my constituents. The problem is that he took a decision to delay a vital piece of public transport infrastructure for five years on a commitment given by his predecessor. Those are the facts. Yes, it is the first time I have come here, but the Minister knows I have been raising this matter with him since he became the Minister responsible, and I did so with his predecessor. It is a very simple question. When will the NTA have the funding? Procurement is going to take possibly about a year, then it is ready to go. Is the Minister saying that if the NTA is ready to go and commence construction in 2027 or 2028 he is willing to provide the funding or are we going to have to wait until we get the NDP review and maybe the funding will be released by 2030? All I am asking for is an actual date. The Minister had a long track record of misleading the House under his previous responsibility. I will not stand for it now, just like I did not then. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  I am in the Chair. You should not make those remarks, Deputy \u00d3 Broin, unless they are----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  Unless they are factually accurate, which they are. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  No, hold on a second. You should allow the Minister to answer the question you have put in time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darragh O'Brien  I have respect for his constituents but it is very difficult to respect the Deputy when he continues to behave in this way. I completely reject what he has said. It is the first time in 18 months that he has come into this Chamber and bothered to take the time to raise this project that apparently he cares so much about. I contrast that with his colleague, Deputy Shane Moynihan, who has regularly raised it, advocated and sought meetings with the NTA. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  As we all have. When will it get the funding? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  Deputy \u00d3 Broin, allow the Minister to use his time to answer or leave the Chamber. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  He will not answer the question. He has 27 seconds. When will the NTA get the money? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  He is going to leave the Chamber after the question. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darragh O'Brien  I do not know how things operate in Sinn F\u00e9in but I have a fair idea. The Deputy may get away with bullying people in his own party but he will not bully or barrack me. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  When will the NTA get the money? It is a simple question. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darragh O'Brien  Is there any point in even trying to answer? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  I am going to move on to the next question because there is no point. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darragh O'Brien  Pathetic, Eoin, pathetic. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  No answers, as usual, Minister. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darragh O'Brien  You are pathetic. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Rail Network"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_27","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Bus \u00c9ireann","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_25","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_25","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_27","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_27.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darren O'Rourke  I want to ask about the measures being taken to address the deteriorating service on the 103 bus route serving areas including Ashbourne and Ratoath to and from Dublin. There is huge frustration about the services. Not a day passes without constituents raising concerns about the service, not just to me but also to Government colleagues in Meath and in Meath East. We need improvement on these services. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  I thank Deputy O'Rourke for raising this matter which I am taking on behalf of the Minister of State, Deputy Canney. The NTA has statutory responsibility for securing the provision of public passenger transport services nationally and for the scheduling and timetabling of these services, in conjunction with the relevant transport operators. The services are subsidised and the NTA is responsible for the routes, fares and shared systems.  In the case of route 103 serving Dublin to Ratoath via Ashbourne, Bus \u00c9ireann is responsible, as we have said, for the management and day-to-day operation as the operator, alongside the other PSO services. The performance of all public transport operators is monitored by the NTA as part of the contractual arrangements in place between the operators and the NTA. The contracts allow for not just the monitoring of performance but also the publication of the annual performance reports and, importantly, for the imposition of financial penalties to reinvest into the network in places where performance does not meet the minimum required standards, as well as reasonable incentive payments where performance exceeds the set standards.  In terms of punctuality, the 103 has unfortunately been generally performing below the minimum contractual standards since the start of this year. However, adhering to on-time performance can be challenging given the length of the route, the variability of traffic conditions in towns and villages along the way, as well as general traffic congestion in Dublin city centre. The point the Deputy is making about improving the services is not one that we can gloss over and we need to listen to his articulation of the issue on behalf of the many people who are frustrated.  I understand from the NTA that since the start of this year lost kilometres on the 103 route have been higher than desired, primarily due to mechanical issues and bus breakdowns. In line with its prescribed allocations and available resources for the year, the NTA is currently working with Bus \u00c9ireann to introduce a revised timetable on this route later this year.  Additionally, the NTA is also meeting Bus \u00c9ireann weekly at senior management level to review all service performances and monitor the operator's plans to improve reliability. We as a Department have asked the NTA to promptly apprise us of the progress to address these challenges. When we get a report we will get back to the Deputy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darren O'Rourke  As I said, there is not a day passes that constituents do not raise concerns in relation to the service. Sometimes it is better to use their words rather than mine. I will give an example from the last 24 hours.  To Whom it may Concern,  I am writing this email as i am so disappointed and disgusted with the Bus Eireann service Ratoath\/Ashbourne to Dublin. Number 103.  I have lived in Ashbourne since 2004 and now in 2026 the bus service is worse than it was 22 years ago. How is that possible?  Constantly late, no shows, the last few weeks there have been buses cancelled both ways, no explanation given and the notice given for the cancellation maybe less than 20 mins. When i am trying to get home from work i get on at Harts Corner, the buses are usually full and don't stop, especially when schools and colleges are open. The bus due at Harts Corner at 17:10 is usually a coach, what's the point in that?  [...]  There are only so many times an employer is going to listen to the excuse, the bus was cancelled or full.  What do we say to these constituents? What does the Minister of State say to them? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  First of all, it is not acceptable that there is that level of frustration and lateness for work. I accept that the issue is there. As I outlined in my initial response to the Deputy, there is engagement with Bus \u00c9ireann. We need to ensure that the frustration of people is now replaced by delivery of services. That is why the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, and I have been engaged fully with the NTA in terms of the review of not just the service, with the provision of staff in terms of fixing broken buses, but also in terms of the reliability. That is why we are very anxious that in this year it is about sustainability and building resilience.  Where there are issues, there are fines. I know the fines are not good or acceptable to the person whose email the Deputy read out. I will take back the Deputy's comments. As someone who uses the bus service in Cork city, I know that people are looking for reliability and punctuality and we must build confidence in the system. I understand that and I will take back the Deputy's points. I am not familiar with route 103 but I certainly find it unacceptable that the person's email is a common one. That should not be the case. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darren O'Rourke  It is very common. Across the political spectrum, local representatives at Oireachtas level and local authority level have met the NTA and Bus \u00c9ireann but it is like we are banging our heads off a wall. That is why I am raising this specific route here today. Considerable residential development is happening in Ashbourne and Ratoath and it is welcome but these services are not fit for purpose. If the Minister of State has this information I would appreciate it and if he does not I ask him to send it on to me. He has acknowledged that there are failures in these services. Has Bus \u00c9ireann been fined in relation to this and, if so, to what extent? It is important that the Minister of State puts the focus on this. There is a review of the Navan-Dublin bus corridor. There should be a detailed review of this service, the Dublin to Ratoath via Ashbourne corridor. It is hugely important and very popular. Lots of people want to use the bus but are not getting the opportunity of a reliable service. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  I do not have the information the Deputy requested but I will ask my officials to communicate with him. The Minister, Deputy O'Brien, the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, and I, as a Department, have asked that a report on the route be directly given back to us.  As the Deputy said, it is a critically important route. What is happening is unacceptable. We have been very clear on that. For us, punctuality is critical, Reliability is equally important. We, as Ministers, and the Department are very much of the view that we must build sustainability in order to stabilise matters. The Department, working with the NTA and Bus \u00c9ireann, has put in place plans in respect of mechanics, drivers and recruitment. We have spoken to the Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment regarding visas and work permits.  What we want is a transport system that operates for the travelling public. If Deputy O'Rourke sends us the information he has, we will certainly communicate with him in respect of the fines. There have been fines levied on the bus providers, as the Deputy knows. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Bus \u00c9ireann"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_28","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Rail Network","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_25","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_25","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_28","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_28.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  Will the Minister outline the most recent timeline for the construction of the Finglas Luas project following the resolution of the relevant legal action earlier in the year? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darragh O'Brien  I thank Deputy McAuliffe for tabling this important question. I am sure he will agree that Luas Finglas is an exciting project that has the potential to transform Finglas and the wider area around it. There are about 58,000 households in that area. The project will also provide benefits for those living far beyond the immediate community. The park-and-ride facility at St. Margaret's Road and the interchanges with heavy rail and bus at Broombridge, which Deputy McAuliffe and I visited, will allow anyone using those services to connect with the wider public transport network. This is a fantastic project. Importantly, the project will reduce journey times, get people out of cars, help with decarbonisation, provide a more efficient transport system and support the development of businesses and housing in the area.  As the Deputy will be aware, we have had a clean railway order in place since October 2025. Three judicial review applications were submitted. However, these have been successfully resolved. I commend TII and the parties involved on the work they did in this regard. This means that Luas Finglas now has, in effect, full planning permission. In November, my Department published its NDP in which it noted the construction of Luas Finglas.  The project team in TII is currently preparing for future phases of the project, including drafting and updating the detailed business case, the procurement strategy and the tender documents. TII is seeking to position the project to a ready-to-start stage, with the aim that the main design and build contract being tendered at the start of next year. I want to bring this forward at that point in order that we can look to accelerating it with a view to getting into construction in 2028.  This project will have immense benefits for Deputy McAuliffe's area. He has been a really strong advocate for it. If we look at the previous NDP, the project was sitting in the middle of the 2030s. TII is really excited about this project. It is 3.9 km of off-road development. We can bring it forward. The final documents are being prepared. We can get the project out to tender at the start of next year and then, hopefully, get into construction in 2028. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  The Minister summed up the project very well. There was a time when I came into the House seeking to explain the project to people and extoll its virtues. The point the Minister has made is that the case for Luas Finglas has been won. The funding is there and the reality is that we have to get on with the job putting the project out to tender and having it built.  This will be a transformative project. Only last week, the Land Development Agency purchased a significant piece of land adjacent to that relating to the Luas project for what it hopes will be affordable purchase and affordable rental accommodation. That would not have been possible without the Luas project. This shows the very real, tangible and immediate impact of the project.  I hope that later this year and early in 2027 we can start to do some of the enabling works that will allow us to proceed with the larger project next year and into 2028. I also hope that the project will be delivered in the next two or three years. I thank the Minister for the work he has done in respect of this project. He has played no small part in pushing it along the line. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darragh O'Brien  As stated, this nearly 4 km extension to the Luas and linking up with heavy rail will be a game-changer for the Dublin north-west area and for the wider north Dublin area as well in light of the interconnection with other services. We are going to bring it forward. Deputy McAuliffe and I have sat down with senior officials from TII and have worked through the details of the plan. The TII did super work in being able to resolve the judicial review. That puts us in a position whereby we can invest and get this project started. We want to get it out to tender. There is already significant interest in it. We will have a competitive tendering process, which we obviously have to go through. We will get that done. Subject to everything going well, we will be getting this into construction in 2028. I do not see any reason why we cannot do so.  This extension of the Luas and linking it up with other services at Broombridge will be the most tangible sign of real change regarding our rail network in the Dublin area. I am very excited about it. I am looking forward to work commencing. I keep Deputy McAuliffe fully abreast of developments. The benefits for his constituents and for people in the wider area of this Luas extension are difficult to actually quantify. In the context of housing, business, quality of life and climate, it ticks every box. We are going to move it forward. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  It was great to have the Minister out at Broombridge to see where the current line ends and to look over at Tolka Valley Park in order to see where the line will continue. I have already talked about the benefits. There will also be a park-and-ride facility that will be of benefit to the wider area. There are some sporting facilities, including an all-weather facility, that we can develop in Tolka Valley Park in conjunction with Dublin City Council. This is also going to create employment along the way. We are going to see some movement from employment land to housing land in terms of zoning, but the Luas will bring more jobs to our area.  I want to acknowledge TII. Its representatives have been passionate about this project. They have come out and met with residents. We have not always been able to get agreement, but they literally fought for this project on the streets, outside people's homes and at community meetings. The way we will reward them for that work is to ensure that everything possible is put in place from a Government perspective. I know it has been.  I also want to acknowledge all the community people who fought for this project. I include my colleague and former Deputy Noel Rock, who also fought for this, in that regard. We did not often give each other much acknowledgement. In fairness, there are people who champion these projects. Success can have many mothers and fathers. This will be a real benefit for my constituency. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darragh O'Brien  It is good of Deputy McAuliffe to acknowledge former Deputy Noel Rock, who is no longer here. It is very easy to do that, but fair play. It was very magnanimous of Deputy McAuliffe to do so.  I have been out there. I know the area very well. TII has done superb work on this. Its public consultation and outreach into communities in respect of the project is an exemplar. We are now at the delivery phase, not just across this project but also in the context of our wider rail network. We will start Luas Finglas and we will have our new trains on the northern line, which is the start of DART+ Coastal North. I have already mentioned DART+ West and tried to answer Deputy \u00d3 Broin about DART+ South West, but he just continued to shout me down, which is fine. There are some who do not want to see this progress happening, but this project is happening. I am looking forward to visiting the area again with Deputy McAuliffe in order to walk the new route. We will keep him fully abreast of the situation. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Question No. 111 taken with Written Answers. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Rail Network"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_29","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Bus Services","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_25","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_25","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_29","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_29.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John McGuinness  I want to raise the fact that Expressway has pulled out of providing services on route 4. We are faced with a public service obligation route being provided from Waterford to Carlow. I attended a public meeting on the matter in Mullinavat and have attended two further meetings since. I want to reflect the anger of the people who attended those meetings regarding the lack of a response from the National Transport Authority, NTA, and the lack of proper explanation from the very beginning of this debacle. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  I thank Deputy McGuinness for raising this matter. For context, Bus \u00c9ireann operates both PSO services and Expressway intercity services. The latter operate on a commercial basis and do not receive any State subvention. We are aware that Bus \u00c9ireann recently announced the withdrawal of some services which operate under its Expressway banner. Deputy McGuinness referenced route 4, the Waterford via Carlow service, in this regard.  The point the Deputy makes reflects a lot of the frustration experienced by people. He referred to the meeting held in Mullinavat. It is important that Bus \u00c9ireann and the NTA communicate with people, the travelling public and public representatives in a very clear and cogent manner. It is unacceptable that the decision in this regard, which was taken following a financial and operational review, was not communicated by Bus \u00c9ireann in terms of the need to provide clarity and certainty to people.  In saying that, Bus \u00c9ireann has said to us that in regard to the Expressway performance over recent years, it was concerned about the long-term financial sustainability of the company as a whole.  The NTA, as Deputy McGuinness has referenced, is the licensing authority for the commercial bus sector. As is the case with any such commercial route withdrawals, the withdrawal of these routes triggers the NTA's public service obligation termination process, the outcome of which has been published by the NTA.  I know the NTA - and I will ask it to communicate directly with Deputy McGuinness - has undertaken a detailed assessment of the potential impact to customers. The review identified that the loss of route 4 would, as we have heard, significantly reduce the capacity and connectivity between Waterford and Carlow, and that is regrettable. The NTA has introduced a new Transport for Ireland, TFI, route 365, as subsidised by the bus service to maintain vital transport links and support regional accessibility. I would be anxious to hear how that service, which will have four daily returns, will meet the needs of the people Deputy McGuinness speaks about and I would be happy to communicate with the NTA on his behalf as well. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John McGuinness  That is a statement of fact, I suppose, in respect of the response given but, in reality, it does not address the real issue of the connection between Waterford and other towns along the route to Dublin and Dublin Airport. There are students who use that route to go to college. There are those who visit the hospitals in Dublin and elsewhere, or those who go to the airport. There are those who are, maybe, socialising and use the bus service. It has been withdrawn. Bus \u00c9ireann has shown a total disregard for its customers by the manner in which it withdrew it and by the lack of information it has given. The National Transport Authority has missed the point in relation to the connection through all of those towns from Waterford to Dublin and Dublin Airport. I ask that this route be examined again, that a proper service be provided and that the customers be informed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  The new 365 route will provide four daily returns, which will provide access for passengers travelling from Waterford and Carlow to Dublin via the counties in between. Passengers travelling onwards will benefit from connections in Carlow to existing bus and rail services to Dublin and beyond. As I said, the route will be operated by Bus \u00c9ireann on an interim basis. The new service will provide four return journeys. It will ensure continued access for passengers travelling from Waterford, Carlow and the surrounding counties will be provided for.  I take the Deputy's point on the need to have the travelling public communicated with. He said it was a \"statement of fact\". I hear what he is saying. I will communicate the Deputy's frustrations and the concerns of the people in regard to the NTA missing the point about the connection piece. As the Deputy knows, the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, and I are not the people directly engaged in that but we will ask the NTA to account for it and report back to us on the matter. It is an important point. I know the town of Carlow well and the Deputy makes good points with regard to hospital and college. It is a large centre of population as well. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John McGuinness  We are missing the point here. The customers are central to all of this and their needs must be met in a modern world. The Minister of State talked earlier on about the need to use public transport. We talk about our carbon footprint and so on. This flies in the face of all of that. They are not being given the service in rural Ireland. There is a real problem here in regard to communication and providing the solution to this issue. The only solution is to speak to the customers and put on a service that will provide the same kind of service as Expressway, to do it more efficiently and to ensure that the connectivity to rural Ireland is maintained and enhanced. It is not good enough.  I want to repeat that the communication from the NTA was not what I find acceptable and the customers and the public are not being informed. They are not being listened to. Please engage with them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  First of all, the point the Deputy made in regard to communication is critically important. The NTA should communicate clearly and succinctly people. The route 365 will have four daily return journeys. There will be that continued access but I hear the points Deputy McGuinness has made. I understand what he is saying. Connectivity is important. We have seen the success of Local Link and it has grown exponentially around the country in regard to rural transport. I will communicate the points made very eloquently here this morning with the NTA on behalf of Deputy McGuinness and the people he has spoken about.  We are committed, as a Government, to providing all of our citizens, no matter where they are, with reliable and realistic sustainable mobility options. I know that public transport, as I said earlier - I do not recoil from this - plays a significant role in that. The NTA and the Department will, following this morning's questions, liaise with Deputy McGuinness on the provision of services and if the route 365 does not work, then there obviously has to be a reappraisal of what the situation is. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Bus Services"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_30","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Public Transport","counts":{"speechCount":30,"speakerCount":4},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_25","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_25","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_30","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_30.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  My question to the Minister is on whether he is going to seek additional investment in public transport in light of the fuel crisis. Two days ago, the Minister got the Climate Change Advisory Council's annual review of transport. It is pretty damning as an assessment in that, already, the sectoral emissions ceiling has been exceeded. The 2025 one is projected to exceed the second one. The report also calls for investment to be expedited in a range of public transport infrastructure projects. Will the Minister go along with that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  I am taking the question on behalf of the Minister. As the Deputy knows, offering a more affordable and sustainable alternative for many people, public transport has had a particularly important role to play in responding to the demand driven by fluctuating geopolitical developments, as we have said, which are consequently and consistently impacting the cost of fuel. As we all know, rising fuel costs increases the likelihood of car users switching to public transport. We have seen that but that modal shift is unpredictable. What we do have is an increase in people using public transport.  As the Deputy knows, in respect of targeted measures to further support the impacted sectors, in April of this year Government approved and introduced a range of measures to mitigate rising fuel costs, including the road transport support scheme and additional supports for bus and coach operators, including providing TFI Local Link and school transport services. These supports, worth approximately \u20ac120 million over three months, are helping operators manage current pressures and maintain service levels.  While operating in an uncertain environment, the immediate priority for our Department and the NTA has been to protect existing services and ensure continuity across the network within the resources allocated to the public service obligation, PSO, programme in 2026. Where opportunities arise to enhance services in a timely and practical way, these will be actively considered and progressed.  The Department of Transport and the NTA continue to remain in close contact with operators to monitor demand and operational impacts. It is important to outline that we are carefully considering all aspects of what is happening at the moment within the available of resources, so that we can continue to provide effective, sustainable public transport where we can see benefits for the people. Additionally, our fare structures in Ireland for public transport compares very favourably with our European counterparts. I will come back further in the supplementary with other comments. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  I thank the Minister of State. We are in a deep climate crisis and we are missing our sectoral emissions targets with regard to transport, as well as our targets as a whole, by a very wide margin. We are in a cost-of-living crisis. An immediate answer to both of those is investment in public transport. Yet, what the Government is doing is delaying investment in necessary public transport projects. I will quote from the Climate Change Advisory Council review:  ... under the current National Development Plan ... DART+ South West construction will not commence until post 2030 and construction of Luas Finglas ... will not commence until 2029. The delays in construction for these shovel-ready projects are unnecessary. The Council believes that allocation of funding to advance both projects should be expedited and strongly recommends that the Government commit funding to these projects in Budget 2027.  Is the Government going to do that? Why is this delay taking place? The Government cannot blame planning or funds. Is it because of grid issues? Data centres are effectively using up all of the power in the greater Dublin area. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  The fundamental point Deputy Murphy misses is that we secured an extraordinary allocation of \u20ac940 million - an uplift of 43% - for our PSO services in the budget. I reiterate what the Minister said earlier, namely that the focus for this year is on stabilisation. It is about ensuring services that are already in place can operate reliably and sustainably and that we see progressive improvements in other services.  The other point is that we are meeting our climate change objectives. More and more people are moving to public transport. There is a commitment to electrify the fleet. We have seen more investment than ever before in that area. We are very much committed to having a reliable public transport system that is a movement away from the old style of public transport provision to electric trains and buses. We are seeing that across the country and in the city of Dublin. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  Can the Minister of State repeat that? Did he just say we are meeting our climate change targets? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  We are meeting them in terms of moving away from fossil fuel vehicles to----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  Can the Minister of State repeat it on the record? We are meeting our climate change targets. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  I am saying that we are moving towards the electrification of the fleet. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  That is not meeting our climate change targets. Our legally binding climate change targets are set out. They state that we have to reduce emissions in this sector or that sector by certain amounts. The Climate Change Advisory Council review states, \"The sector has likely exceeded its first sectoral emissions ceiling (2021\u20132025) and is projected to exceed its second (2026\u20132030).\" The Government is not meeting its climate targets. It is not coming anywhere close to meeting its climate targets. It is trying to lull people to sleep by saying things that are inaccurate such as, for example, that we are meeting our climate change targets. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  We are electrifying the----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  The fundamental point the Minister of State is missing is that the Government is choosing to delay investment in public transport against the advice of Climate Change Advisory Council. That is a fact. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  Did the Deputy read the NDP? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  I will ask again. Is the reason the Government is not proceeding with the project down to the fact that all of the power is going to the data centres? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  Sure that is----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  I refer to the briefing note prepared for the Government's major project governance oversight group, which warned that there is insufficient power in the ESB network to support DART+. The target is 100%, and we need ten times more power. Where will that come from? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  I know Deputy Murphy does not want to hear good news. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  I would like some good news. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  It is the job of the Opposition to hark and bark, and that is all right. We are politicians, and I understand that. One in every four euro is going on public transport investment and one in every eight euro is being spent on public transport. I reiterate that there has been 43% uplift in the budget for this year. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  That was not the question. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  I ask Deputy Murphy to read the NDP for transport. Has he read it? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  I have. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  The Deputy will have read about the Government's commitment to the provision of public transport, the electrification of the fleet, the purchase of new vehicles and the move away from diesel engines. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  We are not charging the vehicles. The NTA told the Committee of Public Accounts that we are not charging them because the data centres are using all the power. We have electric buses that are sitting there not being charged. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Barry Heneghan)  This is not a back and forth. Allow the Minister of State to answer the question. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  The Deputy does not want to hear good news. If he had his way, we would have no BusConnects, no Cork commuter rail, no MetroLink and no DART and he would be asking what are we doing. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  We do not have 60% of BusConnects. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  The reality is that we are developing a transport plan----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  Where is BusConnects? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  Deputy \u00d3 Broin got his answer earlier and did not like it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  I will be coming back in shortly. The Minster of State need not worry. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Public Transport"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_31","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Road Network","counts":{"speechCount":8,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_25","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_25","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_31","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_31.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John McGuinness  On the completion of the next phase of the Kilkenny ring road, I am seeking to establish what stage the process is at, when it is likely to be approved and when the funding will be made available. I made a recommendation to the Minister, because funding is coming directly from the Department's budget, that the \u20ac50 million or so needed to cover the project should be set aside in lump sums each year in order that when the planning process is completed, the necessary funding will be in place. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  I am taking this question on behalf of the Minister. In accordance with section 13 of the Roads Act 1993, as amended, the improvement and maintenance of regional and local roads is the statutory responsibility of each local authority. Work on such roads is funded from councils' resources, supplemented by State road grants. The initial selection and prioritisation of works to be funded is a matter in the first case for the local authority. Any new road projects in respect of which State funding is sought are assessed by our Department on a case-by-case basis. All projects proposed by local authorities for consideration must comply with the requirements of the infrastructure guidelines and the Department's transport appraisal framework. Given the limited funding available for regional and local road improvement works, it is important for each local authority to prioritise projects within these requirements.  In the case of the Kilkenny city north transport project, the Kilkenny ring road, it aims to reduce city centre congestion and improve cross-river connectivity via a potential northern ring road extension. In January 2023, in line with Government requirements, Kilkenny County Council produced a strategic assessment report for the Kilkenny northern ring road extension and a draft was forwarded by our Department for review. Since then, both the public spending code and the Department\u2019s transport appraisal framework guidance have been updated. In 2024, following the provision of funding from our Department, Kilkenny County Council submitted an updated project outline document, POD, for the Kilkenny city north transport project. While this process was underway, funding was also allocated for traffic and junction analysis in the Butts Green area of the city to further assess and better understand traffic patterns.  In 2025, following a review of the POD by our Department, \u20ac200,000 was allocated to the Kilkenny northern transport project to allow Kilkenny County Council to progress it to phase 2, the options stage. This year, Kilkenny County Council appointed a design consultant to progress the options stage. An additional \u20ac300,000 was allocated by the Department of Transport, which will continue to liaise with Kilkenny County Council as the project progresses. For this year, \u20ac718 million was allocated through the regional and local roads grant programme for improvement and maintenance, with approximately 90% of this funding allocated to road maintenance and renewal. I will come back in with more information for Deputy McGuinness in a moment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John McGuinness  Just to be clear, there are two issues I am trying to address here. One is the completion of the next phase of the northern part of the ring road around Kilkenny. I ask the Department to liaise with Kilkenny County Council to proactively move that process and consideration forward so that we can get to the point of approval quickly. The completion of that section has been delayed for some time. I see no reason why we cannot look at the final phase of the project in order to ensure that there will be no time lost in completing the full northern extension of that ring road.  The second point relates to the fact that TFI looked at the existing ring road and instructed the council to implement safety measures, which it has failed to do. I am asking if TFI will examine the matter again and come up with a more efficient plan. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  Who has failed? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John McGuinness  TFI has failed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  I will ask the NTA to liaise with Kilkenny County Council. As Deputy McGuinness knows, it is mainly the responsibility of Kilkenny County Council to decide its programme for road maintenance.  On the safety issue, I will certainly ask the council to liaise and engage, particularly as safety is paramount. I know that Kilkenny County Council has received significant moneys for road protection and renewal works. It is certainly important that there is collaboration and both entities work together to ensure the existing sections of roads can be completed.  In terms of the north ring road, there has been the appointment of a design consultant. I will ask our officials to liaise with council on the matter because it is important. I know it from Deputy McGuinness's ongoing advocacy and it is critical to the growth of Kilkenny and the area. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John McGuinness  There are a lot of cooks in the kitchen in the context of all of this. Sometimes, too many of them can spoil the dish. I ask that there be some communication between all of those involved, namely Kilkenny County Council, the transport infrastructure people and those responsible for funding in order that the mess they have made of the Black Quarry roundabout might be addressed and to prevent traffic from backing up right along the ring road. There is still a problem with safety that should be addressed. I accept what the Minister of State said about the northern part of that ring road. I will work with Kilkenny County Council to ensure that we move quickly through the process. I again ask for the support of the Department as we do that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  As the Deputy will appreciate, I do not have information in respect of that issue. I will certainly ask about the Black Quarry roundabout and ask people to liaise with Deputy McGuinness on the matter. I take the point the Deputy makes that too many cooks spoil everything, but it is important Kilkenny County Council, as the lead agency, can liaise with other stakeholders.  I will ask the Minister, Deputy O'Brien's officials to liaise with Deputy McGuinness. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Road Network"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_32","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Transport Costs","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_25","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_25","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_32","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louis O'Hara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_32.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Barry Heneghan)  T\u00e1 ceist Uimh. 114 \u00e1 th\u00f3g\u00e1il ag an Teachta O'Hara ar son an Teachta Daly. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  Safeguarding long-term financial sustainability while being responsive to passenger needs remains a central commitment under the programme for Government. Achieving this requires a careful balance between delivering high-quality reliable services and ensuring that the network is adequately resourced to meet growing demand. Passenger numbers have continued to rise in recent years, with a record-breaking 363.5 million journeys undertaken just last year.  As the statutory body responsible for regulating fares across services operated under PSO contracts, the NTA is central to shaping a public transport system that is fair, efficient and accessible. Through its management of fare strategies, it helps to ensure that pricing structures support social inclusion and the modal shift while also underpinning the financial viability and resilience of the network.  Public transport fares in Ireland remain comparatively low due to a range of targeted measures introduced in recent years. For context, Ireland's farebox recovery average stands at 38% when compared to a 44% European average. Including the young adult card, the 90-minute fare and free travel for children under nine years of age, such targeted initiatives have significantly improved affordability and accessibility. They also increase reliance on subsidy, making fare revenue a critical component of maintaining a financially sustainable PSO model.  In line with international best practice, prioritising the reinvestment of the fare revenue is essential to support service improvements, expansion and system resilience. Maintaining a stable funding base is, therefore, critical to sustaining service levels and ensuring public transport continues to meet passenger needs over the long term.  Regarding budget 2027, the PSO funding allocation will be subject to the annual budgetary and Estimates process. As is standard in all budgetary deliberations between Departments and State agencies, a comprehensive assessment of all service provision costs and requirements will be undertaken, with a strong focus on ensuring value, fairness and accessibility for all passengers. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louis O'Hara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Louis O'Hara  I thank the Minister of State. The cost of fares is obviously a significant expense for people who rely on public transport. At a time when households right across the State are struggling with rising costs, rising rents and rising everything else, there is a need for the Government to be upfront with people as to whether commuters will face an increase in public transport fares. In the Minister of State's response, he has not given any clarity as to whether fares may increase.  I want to raise the taxsaver scheme because this is one area where commuters try to save money on their fares. While many people have the opportunity to participate in that scheme, it is only available to commuters who are employed at companies that are taking part in the scheme. It has been raised with me that this requirement means that a whole cohort of people are being excluded from the scheme. I understand that the Department of Finance has a role in that also. Has the Department of Transport given any consideration to extending this scheme to all employers to make everybody eligible to benefit from it? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  Everything will be considered in the budgetary deliberations for next year. As the Deputy knows, all deliberations between our Department and the various agencies under it are subject to a thorough assessment in terms of their service provision, cost and requirements. There is a strong commitment to and focus on ensuring that value, fairness and accessibility for all passengers is achieved. Looking at what we have done, we have made public transport accessible for people through the young adult card, the PSO uplift and the funding of cost-of-living measures.  The point the Deputy makes as to how we can get more people to use public transport and to incentivise them is one on which we must reflect. I certainly have heard it from many people in terms of the taxsaver scheme. If we look at the whole national fares strategy, it is one we are always looking to examine, review and analyse. As the Deputy says, this is about getting people in that modal shift. He referred to other routes in his earlier contributions. I will certainly take the Deputy's point back to the Minister and the Department, but I cannot give any answer this morning because the budgetary process has not commenced yet. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louis O'Hara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Louis O'Hara  It would be good if changes could be considered. A related issue I wish to raise is the significant difference that commuters in Galway are paying for rail fares compared to other parts of the State, particularly Dublin. I had a constituent in touch with me highlighting that rail passengers between Athenry and Galway city pay \u20ac5.10 each way for a 20-minute train journey. At the same time, a commuter travelling between Clonsilla to Connolly Station in Dublin, a journey of roughly 30 minutes, can travel for approximately \u20ac2.60 each way. Athenry to Galway is a commuter route. There is clearly an unfairness in passengers on those trains having to pay significantly more - double what a commuter in Dublin could expect to pay. At a time when the Government is trying to encourage and promote the use of public transport, why are commuters in Galway paying twice what commuters in Dublin could expect to pay for their rail fares, especially given that public transport is much more limited in the west? Will the Minister of State review this difference in fares and ensure that commuters in Galway are treated fairly when it comes to the cost of public transport? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  I think the Deputy has raised this matter before. The important point I would make is that we are committed as a Government to maintaining a fare strategy that is fair and equitable. We are committed to helping to ensure that the pricing structure supports social inclusion and the modal shift, whether it is in Cork, Galway, Dublin or Offaly. It does not matter where. For us, our public transport provision is very important. If we look at the comparison to Europe, the farebox recovery average stands at 38% compared to the 44% European average.  I will take the point the Deputy makes back to the Department. We are committed to improving the offerings for people. We have a very good model of fare strategy, and if there are improvements to be made, let us make those happen. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Question No. 116 taken with Written Answers. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Transport Costs"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_33","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Bus Services","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_25","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_25","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_33","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_33.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  The public accounts committee has, after protracted correspondence, finally got to the bottom of where we might be in terms of the cost of storage of 384 buses over the last four years, with 98 electric buses still in storage. These are much-needed buses that should be servicing our community. Will the Minister of State specifically tell us the cost of those electric buses, and also the projected cost, given that we are still counting for the 98 buses still in storage? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  Delays in the entry into service of new buses are very much regrettable. However, I must emphasise that the storing of buses while we deploy charging infrastructure is preferable to deferring their purchase in the first place until we have a charger available for every bus. If an alternative approach had been adopted where buses were only purchased after charging infrastructure was installed to ensure no delay in fleet absorption, the cost of purchasing fleet would have significantly escalated in recent years due to inflation. As an example, if electric bus purchases were deferred by one year from their actual order placement dates, the additional purchase cost of the buses would have been approximately \u20ac12 million, compared to around \u20ac7 million in costs that have actually been incurred as a result of bus storage.  As of today, over 250 battery electric buses have been accepted into the Dublin Bus and Bus \u00c9ireann fleets across the country, including the operation of our first fully electric services in Limerick and Athlone. Ninety-eight battery electric buses are currently awaiting deployment pending the installation of charging infrastructure. The 56 buses to be deployed in the greater Dublin area are planned to enter service later this year. The 42 remaining buses for use in Galway are all planned to enter into operation late this year and early 2027.  There can be a 12-to-48-month timeline when ordering a new electric bus, while installing charging infrastructure typically requires securing planning approval and subsequent procurement of charger supplier and installation. Achieving full alignment between the delivery of the new electric bus fleet and the charger installations is challenging. The delay is regrettable, as the Deputy said. To help address the mismatched timelines of charging capacity and fleet delivery in future, the NTA plans to award a new national electric bus charging infrastructure framework later this month. This framework, from which suppliers can be accessed for depot electrification projects anywhere in the country in the future, will replace the fragmented, project-by-project procurement approach to date. I hope that gives the Deputy some answers to her question. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  If hundreds of electric, zero-emission buses sitting in storage represents value for money, I would like the Department to publish a full cost-benefit analysis, the opportunity cost and the opportunity lost. Will the Minister of State please confirm that the Department will do that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  I will have the Department communicate with Deputy Boland. I take the point she makes and it is a very fair point. The overarching point is we must be conscious of spending public money and I take her point on both. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Is f\u00e9idir teacht ar Cheisteanna Scr\u00edofa ar www.oireachtas.ie. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Written Answers are published on the Oireachtas website. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  While we are waiting, I welcome a group from Scoil \u00cdosag\u00e1in, Coolgreany, who are guests of Deputy \u00d3 S\u00failleabh\u00e1in, to the Public Gallery. I hope they enjoy this morning's proceedings. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Bus Services"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_34","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna \u00f3 Cheannair\u00ed - Leaders' Questions","counts":{"speechCount":34,"speakerCount":9},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_34","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Donnelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Donnelly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-Donnelly.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Stanley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pearse Doherty  Inniu, d'fhoilsigh coiste tith\u00edochta an Oireachtais tuarasc\u00e1il shuntasach. Is \u00e9 an moladh is suntasa\u00ed n\u00e1 go dtabharfadh Rialtas an T\u00e1naiste cosc \u00e9igeand\u00e1la ar dh\u00edshealbhuithe gan locht isteach ar\u00eds. T\u00e1 an ceart ag an choiste. T\u00e1 g\u00e9argh\u00e1 le cosc den chine\u00e1l sin anois n\u00edos m\u00f3 n\u00e1 riamh. T\u00e1 c\u00edosanna ardaithe go dt\u00ed leibh\u00e9il n\u00e1r fhaca muid le 25 bliain anuas. T\u00e1 an easpa d\u00eddine ag dul i m\u00e9id i gc\u00f3na\u00ed agus taifid nua \u00e1 mbriseadh gach m\u00ed. T\u00e1 l\u00edon na nd\u00edshealbhuithe anois ag an leibh\u00e9al is airde \u00f3 aimsir an Ghorta Mh\u00f3ir. T\u00e1 c\u00falbhinseoir\u00ed ph\u00e1irt\u00ed an T\u00e1naiste f\u00e9in, Fine Gael, ag iarraidh ar an Rialtas gn\u00edomh\u00fa chun cosc ar dh\u00edshealbhuithe gan locht a thabhairt isteach ar\u00eds.  Today, the Oireachtas committee on housing published a major report. This report makes it clear that the Government is not doing enough to tackle the housing and homelessness crisis. It calls on the Government to introduce an emergency response to the crisis, including a ban on no-fault evictions. This call comes from TDs of all parties, including Fine Gael and Fianna F\u00e1il. The committee is right. Such a ban is needed now more than ever. The situation was bad enough but the Government's rent hikes legislation has made things even worse. The consequences are plain to see. Rip-off rents have now jumped to their highest levels in 25 years. Homelessness rates continue to rise, breaking new records every single month. Evictions are now at the highest level since the Famine.  As a result of the Government's legislation, we have seen an alarming increase in the number of evictions since the start of this year. Many people and families now find themselves in desperate situations, seeking a new place to live. Those who can find a place face paying thousands and thousands extra in rent. Those who cannot find a place are left in awful situations. We are talking about working families with good jobs and sometimes with two incomes. We are talking about older people who have paid rent all their lives and parents who are robbed of the security they need to build a good life for them and their children.  It seems that everybody sees how bad things are except for the T\u00e1naiste's Government. Even the Government parties' own backbenchers who helped drafted this report are now calling on the Government to act to reintroduce the ban on no-fault evictions. The writing is on the wall. If this intervention is not made immediately, many more people will be forced to move back into their parents' homes or insecure situations or, even worse, will find themselves in homelessness. There are many steps we can take to protect people.  A ban on no-fault evictions would provide people in housing difficulty with the safety net they need. It would relieve stress and pressure and give these people the security they need. It is not just Sinn F\u00e9in that is urging the T\u00e1naiste to do this. This is a cross-party call for his Government to move with urgency and ambition to stem the flow of evictions. The T\u00e1naiste now has an opportunity to make a real difference. For too long, the story of housing in Ireland has been a story of pressure, stress, desperation and hopelessness. That story can be changed, however. That tide can be turned. Hope can be restored for people who just want a secure home for them and their families. However, it has to start with better decisions. The T\u00e1naiste has to make one of those decisions today. He has to make that difference. Will he tell people that he will make that decision and reintroduce a ban on no-fault evictions, as members of parties across this House have called for? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I thank Deputy Doherty for his question and I thank the Oireachtas committee on housing for its work. The committee report published this morning makes 14 recommendations. Of course, we will work our way through the report and consider all of the recommendations, as we do with all committee reports.  Page 5 of the report states that these committee recommendations arise from hearings held on 16 December last year. A number of decisions and actions have been taken by Government since then. As I look through the recommendations, I am pleased to say that many are in train or in place. The report calls for a greater focus on prevention and for increased funding, which we are providing. Very importantly, the committee recommends that the best interests of the child must be a key priority in addressing homelessness, and I believe everyone across the House can agree on that. We agree and that is why legislation is being brought forward to amend the Housing Act 1988 to ensure that consideration is given to the best interests of the child in the process of making decisions on accommodation for households. This is a key ask of many of those who work with homeless families across the country.  The report also seeks a child and family homelessness prevention plan. I am pleased to tell the House that this plan will be published before the summer recess. It is important work. We do not want to see anybody homeless in Ireland but we all particularly want to see progress made on children in homelessness. This plan is intended to drive a real focus on preventing children and families entering emergency accommodation while also providing enhanced supports for children who do experience homelessness. It will also include measures to accelerate exits and to reduce the time children and their families spend in homeless emergency accommodation. This was also a recommendation of the report.  The committee also recommends engagement with stakeholders. There has objectively never been more engagement but Government is always open to hearing any ideas from across this House as to what more could be done.  Since this committee hearing in December of last year, we have seen the legislation come into effect on 1 March 2026. That puts a range of protections in place in respect of tenancies. As the Deputy will know, we have extended the rent pressure zones nationwide. These now include the Deputy's own county of Donegal, which was previously not included. We brought in six-year tenancies. That is very important. We now live in a country where the majority of tenants are covered by an effective no-fault eviction ban. There was a debate in this House as to the right way to do that and there was debate about making sure that policies did not result in smaller landlords, those with one or two houses, leaving the market, causing a supply challenge. However, it is a statement of fact that there is now an effective no-fault eviction ban in place for the majority of tenants in the country. That also acts on a recommendation of the report.  We are also continuing a record level of investment in social housing, with \u20ac2.9 billion in capital allocated to support the delivery of social homes. We will continue to do that. The report is welcome. I take the Deputy's raising of the important issue of housing in the spirit intended. There is no more important domestic issue. However, it is not true to say that this cross-party report says that the Government should bring in a no-fault eviction ban. The cross-party report says \"The Committee urges the Minister to keep all options under review including an emergency ban on no fault evictions\". Of course, the Government keeps things under review. Let us not misrepresent the good cross-party work that was done in relation to this report. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pearse Doherty  The T\u00e1naiste cannot seriously make up his own facts. He has twice said that it is a fact that the majority of tenancies are effectively subject to a no-fault eviction ban. That is not true and I think the T\u00e1naiste knows that. This provision only applies to new tenancies and not existing tenancies. It also only applies to tenancies with large landlords. Please stop making stuff up. I know it is very difficult to defend the situation the T\u00e1naiste finds himself in but a bit of truth and honesty would be welcome.  The committee is very clear. Not enough is being done and we need an emergency response. The T\u00e1naiste is right that the hearings were held in December but the committee only launched its report this morning. What has happened since December? Rents and house prices have continued to rise, homelessness records have been broken over and over again, and the number of evictions has gone through the roof because of Government legislation allowing landlords to increase rents over and over again. Something has to give. The T\u00e1naiste is not listening to Sinn F\u00e9in, to advocacy groups or to people who are under serious housing pressure. Perhaps it is time for him to listen to some of his backbenchers, who are saying that there is now a need for an emergency response. The T\u00e1naiste can shake his head all he wants but the reality is that we are seeing more evictions. We are seeing rents at their highest levels in 25 years. Despite this, the T\u00e1naiste somehow thinks that everything is rosy in the garden and that the Government is doing everything it needs to. There is a need to introduce a ban on no-fault evictions at this point in time. The Government needs to relieve this pressure and this stress for people. There are options. The Government can stem the tide. It can take measures that will make a meaningful difference in people's lives. I again ask whether the Government will bring forward a ban on no-fault evictions, as has been recommended. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  While Deputy Doherty can speak for Sinn F\u00e9in, he certainly does not speak for Fine Gael backbench TDs or Senators. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Donnelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Donnelly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-Donnelly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Donnelly  They speak for themselves. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pearse Doherty  I have seen what they said. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I speak for the Fine Gael Parliamentary Party. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pearse Doherty  It is here in black and white. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  It is not helpful for the people at home or those in the Gallery for people to shout me down. The reality is that I speak for the Government in his House today and, as its leader, I speak for the Fine Gael Party.  We will follow our policy agenda, which is clearly published, while the Deputy will come into this House and continue to oppose and object every positive measure that we bring forward. Of course, the comments that I have made in relation to no-fault evictions apply to tenancies in place since the legislation came in. How could it apply to anything else? We have put that in since the legislation in March. The Deputy knows that------ "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pearse Doherty  So, it is not the fact. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  It is not the vast majority. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  -----to be true. We have also taken a number of other measures, including this week, with more than \u20ac800 million through the housing, activation and infrastructure office to help counties right across this country to put in place key enabling pieces of infrastructure that are required to deliver more homes. Housing is an emergency in this country. Housing is a real challenge. The cross-party committee has done good work. Do not misrepresent what it has said, though. It has not said to bring in a no-fault eviction ban. It has said to keep all things under review. It has made 14 recommendations. Many of them are under way. Many of them merit further consideration. They will, of course, all be taken very serious. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cian O'Callaghan  In the Rotunda, there are consultants on public-only contracts receiving payments for delivering babies while covering for their private colleagues. On Tuesday, I told the Taoiseach that this was happening at Cork University Maternity Hospital, CUMH, too. The Taoiseach admitted that he did not know anything about this. Today, it has been reported in the Irish Independent that a long-standing professional fee arrangement had been in place among consultants in CUMH. The spokeswoman for the HSE said, \"This a private professional arrangement between some consultants in which Cork University Maternity Hospital plays no part\". While it is no doubt true that hospital management plays no part in administering the payments, it organises the rosters that facilitate this practice. It appears from reports today that rosters are being changed and this practice has been stopped in Cork this week. However, no such confirmation has been forthcoming from the Rotunda.  We also know that there are major issues at University Hospital Galway where public consultants are being asked by management to do lab work for a private hospital. While some are refusing to do this, this is nonetheless leading to huge delays, including in tests for life-threatening conditions such as cancer. As a result, lab work is being outsourced for both public and private patients to commercially run labs. This is at enormous expense to the public purse.  This is not just about consultants and public-only contracts getting extra payments for private work or billing insurers for work for private patients. It is also having a real and negative impact on the care of public patients. These are patients whose lab work is being delayed while private work is done. These are patients whose health and lives are being put at risk.  The whole point of the public-only contract is to improve our health system and level up care for public patients so that they are receiving the same continuity and quality of care as private patients. Instead, at the Rotunda and the CUMH, rostering gaps were being filled for private consultants. This appears to be stopping at CUMH, but what about the Rotunda? Has the Rotunda been instructed to stop this practice? Has University Hospital Galway been told to stop asking public consultants to do lab work for private hospitals? What is the T\u00e1naiste doing to ensure that the public-only contract is being enforced around the country? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I thank the Deputy for raising the issue. At the outset, I agree with him on the importance of the public-only consultant contract. It is something that arose from one of the better days or better periods of time in this House where the Government and Opposition worked together on a vision for the future of the health service called Sl\u00e1intecare. I was the Minister at the time. The Deputy's former party leader, R\u00f3is\u00edn Shortall, chaired that committee. It has produced a good blueprint that we are all working our way through. It has taken some of the day-to-day politics in terms of policy direction out of health. That is a good thing. I want everybody who works in our health service, no matter what role they play, to understand that this Oireachtas speaks with one very clear voice when it comes to public health policy and we all expect it to be followed.  I also agree with the Deputy that there has been progress. We see the benefits of the public-only consultant contract. I will not go through them all, but as an example, St. Vincent's University Hospital has brought about a Saturday hub with participation by 40 consultants. In Wexford General Hospital, we now have weekend consultant cover in emergency medicine, surgery, paediatrics and gynae services. In University Hospital Waterford, we have seen a minimum of 26 consultants rostered at the weekend with outpatient diagnostics running until 8 p.m. during the week and on certain weekends. I use these as examples of where when this is applied correctly, we can see the real benefit in terms of public healthcare.  In relation to some of what has emerged, I acknowledge the Deputy and Deputy Rice's work on this. The idea of anybody being given a gift or paid to do a nixer effectively is not in line with the contract. It is not an improved HSE arrangement. It is not something that the Department of Health, the Minister for Health, the HSE or the Government would condone. Measures are now being taken to ensure that this practice ceases with immediate effect. My understanding is that the HSE chief executive is currently engaging with all the regional health areas and the regional clinical directors in relation to this practice.  I wish to make a couple of other points because people - certainly not the Deputy; quite the opposite to him - sometimes try to muddy the waters in relation to this. As would be the case in all specialties, the maternity consultant on duty in any hospital is responsible for the care of all patients requiring attention regardless of whether they are private or public. This idea that if a consultant is on call, they have to be given some sort of gift or payment is not how it works. Doctors know that, too. Cross-cover between consultants is routine. It is an expected part of how our public health services are delivered, ensuring continuity of care. Any suggestion of private financial arrangements in this context is inconsistent with contractual obligations, raises concerns and risks diverting time and resources away from treating public patients. We have seen no tolerance from the Minister for people who sign on the dotted of a contract and do not adhere by it. The Deputy can be sure that the Minister, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, is working intensely on ensuring the full implementation.  Speaking as the Minister of Finance, and lest anyone be of any other view, I wish to say that any income, be it direct or indirect, gained from employment is taxable. Revenue has standard audit compliance procedures that it operates across all sectors. Whether it is payment in the traditional way, a gift or a nixer, please be aware of the taxable obligations on any income derived through that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cian O'Callaghan  There are patients waiting on test results who want answers in relation to lab work at University Hospital Galway. They want to know what is being done in terms of their test results, which they need a quick turnaround on. Their health and lives depend on a quick turnaround. They want answers as to what the Government is doing on that. The T\u00e1naiste has not addressed that at all. He may say what the Government is doing about that.  It is welcome that the HSE is following up on this, but when are people going to know that these additional payments that are in breach of the public-only contract have stopped? We are seeing more and more things emerging about breaches of the public-only contract. What is the Government doing to ensure that the public-only contract is being enforced? Is it waiting for a drip feed of things to emerge around the country? Is it being proactive in ensuring that the taxpayer and public are getting the service that they are paying for and deserve? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I assure the Deputy that there are few more proactive Ministers than Deputy Carroll MacNeill. She is fully committed to the implementation and enforcement of the public-only consultant contact. We have already seen strong national uptake of the contract, with 3,416 consultants signed up as of the end of May, including 1,220 new entrants. There are over 2,000 consultants who switched from the older contract as well. We now have a health service where 69% of all consultants working in our hospitals are now on the public-only consultant contract. This represents a lot of progress in the time between now and 2023 when it was introduced. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cian O'Callaghan  I asked about breaches. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I know. I will get those. Consultant numbers have also increased significantly.  Regarding any breaches, the Minister for Health and the wider Government have shown that they simply will not be tolerated. There is a process under way - I have briefed on this at the Cabinet subcommittee on health - within the HSE and led by the chief executive, regional health area by regional health area and hospital by hospital, to make sure there is full compliance. The Minister is very eager to keep engaging with the Deputy's colleague, Deputy Rice, as Chair of the Oireachtas health committee on this. That committee is a useful place to continue monitoring progress. This can be a game-changer for the delivery of public health. When someone signs on the dotted line and takes the larger salary, they are expected to deliver on those terms just like anybody working in the public service. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Conor Sheehan  \"Certainty, clarity and stability for the rental sector\" were the words of the Minister for housing when he introduced his disastrous rental reform Bill in February. He did mention the word \"eviction\" once. As predicted, this new law has caused carnage in the private rental sector - not stability, just chaos. There were over 7,000 notices of termination in the first three months of the year. That was a 51% increase on the year before. It is the highest level of evictions ever recorded. There are record and ever-growing levels of homelessness, with 5,604 children now officially homeless.  It is a terrible record and the new normal. It never gets the media coverage or outrage it should. Whether they are from Ireland or not is irrelevant; it is a child without a home. This week, the T\u00e1naiste had a go at local authorities but the problem they have is the lack of powers to act whether on dereliction or homelessness. The Labour Party has long campaigned with Focus Ireland to require local authorities to take the best interests of the child into account when working with families who present as homeless. The Government has failed to act on this for nearly a decade. There are many things we can do to address evictions and homelessness. We all know we need more supply but the Government has been saying that for a decade and the problem keeps getting worse. The housing committee today published an important report on homelessness. It includes 14 recommendations, all suggestions those of us in opposition have previously called for in some form or another. We know preventing homelessness is the best use of resources. It keeps people in their existing home and is much more cost effective. The Chair of the committee, Deputy Carrigy, was correct on \"Morning Ireland\" when he said no child should have to spend any period of time in homelessness. This committee, which has a Government majority, has called for a child homelessness strategy, an emergency package of measures to reduce homelessness and, critically, is open to an emergency ban on no-fault evictions for a defined period of time. We have the highest level of evictions since the Famine and the Government has the power to do something about it. Will it stand up for the thousands of children without a home? There is a Government housing Bill going through the D\u00e1il right now. Committee Stage resumes today at 12.30 p.m. You can introduce a ban on no-fault evictions, stem the tide of rising homelessness and protect the best interests of the child. I ask the T\u00e1naiste for a straight answer - if it will not ban evictions, what will the Government do before the summer recess to reduce homelessness? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I agree with a variety of things the Deputy said but I fundamentally disagree with the baloney and spin coming from some local authority officials in relation to dereliction. Deputy Sheehan represents a county and city with an excellent record in tackling dereliction. Last time I checked this country has one national set of laws. It is quite simple; I am not buying into this idea that all local authorities are performing equally well when it is simply untrue. Eleven did not bother collecting a cent. I can find more derelict properties in County Wicklow on my nightly walk than the entire local authority can find in the course of a year. We have to take this deadly seriously, speak with one voice as an Oireachtas and when we say dereliction is a scourge, put in place a variety of measures to help people fix it such as the living city initiative, cro\u00ed c\u00f3naithe with the vacancy grant and CPO powers. Some local authorities are doing a bloody great job and we thank them for that. Some are not treating this like an emergency. It is as simple as - no one is going to change my mind on this but we are going to change the law because they cannot be trusted or depended on to deliver on this so we will bring in the powers to rectify this through the Revenue Commissioners. I know this from my own councillors. They tell me they raise it week in, week out at council meetings across the country. Councillors are frustrated about this as well. Dereliction is a scourge. Everybody needs to take it much more seriously including local authorities. Some like Limerick are doing great but some are not doing well at all and it is not on.  In relation to the best interests of the child, I agree with the Deputy as does the Government. We will amend the Housing Act 1988 so that it will be very clear that in the decision-making process on accommodation for households the best interests of the child are included. I also agree with the Deputy and the committee on the child and family homelessness prevention plan. It is committed in the Government's national housing plan. It will be published before the summer recess. I will make sure the points in that committee report, if they are not already encompassed, are given further consideration because it is an important area we all want to make progress on across parties.  We made changes on the no-fault eviction ban in March in relation to new tenancies and a no-fault eviction ban except for some small landlords. That was an attempt to get the balance right between increasing renter and tenant protections and supply. We also expanded RPZs and brought in six-year tenancies. They are practical measures. Next week we will see the rural planning guidelines to help make it easier for people to build in their communities. In the budget there will be dereliction taxation to help to tackle dereliction. This week saw housing activation funding to try to get housing going. Every day, we take more measures together to try to make a real difference. We saw in the past that a blanket no-fault eviction ban resulted in a significant spike in notices to quit when it was lifted. We need to be careful. That is why the wording of the report is quite careful in asking that we keep matters under review. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Conor Sheehan  The T\u00e1naiste said local authorities cannot be trusted or depended on. That is an outrageous statement. It is the centralisation of power in the Custom House that has weakened the ability of councils to build new homes, prioritise children in homelessness and tackle dereliction. The measures the T\u00e1naiste spoke of regarding security of tenure are completely undermined by the market rent reset mechanism baked into the legislation which allows landlords to reset rent to the market rate in between tenancies, exposing renters, the most vulnerable people in housing, to record double-digit rent increases. The T\u00e1naiste's own backbenchers are talking about the need for a ban on evictions. What emergency measures will he take before the summer recess? Why will he not recognise that only a ban on evictions will actually reduce homelessness? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I am really confused with the Deputy's position on dereliction because he is defending the system rather than the people the system is meant to represent. People are being let down by inactivity on the derelict sites levy. I gave the Deputy an open goal and said his own council is doing a great job. Limerick is one of the best. It has no superpowers the rest of the country does not have except maybe on the GAA pitch. There are 11 local authorities that did not collect anything. It is not good enough. Deputies can come into this House, kick me around and say the Government needs to do more on housing; that is fine. The Government has a major role to play in housing but so does local government. It is unacceptable that more than \u20ac26 million could have been collected was not. We saw in the excellent journalism of \"RT\u00c9 Investigates\" bizarre baloney in the excuses why this had not been taken more seriously. I am not commentating on this; I am acting. That is why this week I brought forward proposals to bring in a derelict site tax because if they do not take it seriously we will. The Deputy is defending the system but it is letting young people down. I have the table here; it is available. Look at the local authorities that did not collect any money and did not think there was any dereliction in their own county. It is not good enough. This Government is not living by arbitrary deadlines of what more are we going to do by this or that date. Every day we come to work we take more concrete actions help to tackle homelessness. This week it was the housing activation funding across the country including the Deputy's county. The child and family homelessness action plan is the next major step we will take before the summer recess. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Stanley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Brian Stanley  Over the past week or so the T\u00e1naiste has been very critical of county councils which he said think they have \"done enough\" on housing. He said, \u201cThere\u2019s too much sluggishness in parts of the system, in terms of zoning land.\" Laois cannot be counted as one of them if one looks at what it has done on zoning this week. It has exceeded the Department of housing's targets. We need more affordable and social housing and cost rental but it has gone well past the targets. On zoning, this week Laois zoned lands on top of what is already zoned for an additional 8,200 homes. That is a population increase of between 25,000 and 30,000 in a county with about 95,000 of a population at the moment. It is in the top three highest population increases in the State. This was demanded by Fianna F\u00e1il, Fine Gael and the Government. I have no problem with it but the facts are we do not have the infrastructure in the county. The funding allocation this year under the national development plan announced earlier for roads was zero. Cash is required. We need a new primary school in Portlaoise, Col\u00e1iste Dh\u00fan M\u00e1sc secondary school needs to be fast-tracked, Col\u00e1iste \u00cdosag\u00e1in, Portarlington, needs to be built and Saplings Special School in Graiguecullen is dependent on the goodwill of strangers apparently. The N80 bypass in Mountmellick is long promised; the T\u00e1naiste saw it himself when he was there a year and a half ago. It is urgently needed from Fairgreen to Kilminchy roundabout. The N80 goes through a highly populated area and HGVs hit the rail bridge and are chugging along through the market square. The whole place is choked up. Three of the very large land banks zoned this week are on the path of the Portlaoise northern orbital route which is there since my time on the council and before that.  That needs to be constructed. There is a critical shortage of wastewater infrastructure in some of the towns and villages that have been earmarked: Borris-in-Ossory with 160 homes; Ballybrittas with 114 homes; Ballinakill with 58 homes; and Graiguecullen with 437. All of them need wastewater infrastructure upgrades or network connections. A primary care centre is needed in Portlaoise. That needs to be built. Laois County Council has provided whatever infrastructure and facilities it can with the limited resources it has. Any of the Ministers who have been down - including the Minister of State, Deputy Cummins, who did not invite me when he was coming but came and sneaked in even though he was only about a quarter of a mile from me - will have seen what is being delivered in Laois. The chief executive officer of the council and the councillors are saying they have done their bit, will do more when they get the money and will come up with whatever money they can as well, but the funds have to be provided for those projects. Will the T\u00e1naiste get the chequebook out and make sure that we get those pieces of infrastructure, including roads, wastewater facilities, schools, a primary care centre and sports facilities, that are needed in the county? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I thank Deputy Stanley. Firstly can I say, because fair is fair, that Laois is a good performer when it comes to housing. I have my sheet here. There is nowhere to hide here, by the way. The data is there. It shows who is doing a good job and who is not doing a good job. Laois has actually done quite a good job in relation to dereliction. I think there were 13 derelict sites levied during the year 2024. Laois has performed pretty well when it comes to housing delivery. It has done very well on the housing delivery targets and in relation to zoning. I acknowledge that and I thank the county council for its work in relation to that.  I am told by my colleague and friend Deputy Aird that this week Laois did receive good news in relation to funding, I believe it is \u20ac10 million, for the new road in Portlaoise. I think it was successful in two projects in relation to the housing activation and infrastructure office as well. The Government is doing its part. One of the reasons we set up the housing activation office - Deputy Stanley does have a valid point in relation to this - is that infrastructure is a key enabler for housing, 100%. That is why this week we allocated more than \u20ac800 million in funding to projects right across the country. We intend to build on that. The Deputy might that remember call 1, which is the round we have just given out, was only open to local authorities to apply for funding. In the future I think we will look at going beyond local authorities to give opportunities for partnership with private industry and with developers as well.  The Deputy mentioned sports clubs. The sports capital funding will be opening very shortly and I expect clubs in the Deputy's own county and right across the country will benefit. The Governmental will receive an update on that this month. That is important too.  We have a lot of funding. The Deputy said to get the chequebook out. We have a lot of funding allocated in relation to infrastructure. We intend as a Government to spend \u20ac275 billion on infrastructure between now and 2035. One of the collective challenges that central government and local government will have is speeding up delivery. This is why getting the Critical Infrastructure Bill 2026 passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas before the summer recess is a key enabler of delivering on some of those projects.  Schools are a real issue, 100%, and I know there are a lot of pressure points, particularly in high-demand population areas. There will be further allocations in relation to school funding from a capital point of view in the time ahead. The list that has been published is not the final word on the matter. There will be a need to do more and the medium-term fiscal plan the Government has published has unallocated capital that we will be able to return to again. I hope education can benefit from that.  I push back slightly when I hear this idea that the councils are willing to build a few more houses if we are willing to give them A, B or C. It is not that. It is not binary. There is a housing emergency and everybody has a responsibility to do everything they can to build homes so our young people can get out of the box rooms and into their own homes. It is not the case that they will do it, but they will only do it if they are given us this. They need to do it. They need to do their job. It is a national emergency and they should get on with it. However, they will find in partnership a Government willing to work to put in place that key infrastructure to make sure we do not just build homes but also build sustainable communities. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Stanley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Brian Stanley  I have to say to the T\u00e1naiste that the Minister, Deputy Calleary, the Minister, Deputy Browne, the Minister of State, Deputy Cummins, and the Minister, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, have all been in the constituency. It is kind of like an election year, but it is good to see them all down there. The Minister of State, Deputy Cummins, was the only one who did not tell me he was coming.  Yes, funding has been allocated and that is fair enough, but the roundabout the T\u00e1naiste is talking about that one of those is earmarked for is nearly built. I passed it very early this morning on my way here. There are big projects. The Portlaoise northern orbital route, PNOR, and the N80 in Mountmellick are key. The Uisce \u00c9ireann scheme for small towns and villages needs to be delivered on. We need to see that happen. We cannot increase the population of the county by 25%, 26%, or 27% without putting in extra infrastructure, and that is on top of what is already zoned. I appeal to the T\u00e1naiste to go back and look again at this.  On the cost of housing, I heard the debate the other night with the Minister of State, Deputy Cummins, and Deputy Sheehan from the Labour Party. Back a number of years ago when Fine Gael and the Labour Party were in government, the Kenny report came out. Mr. Justice Kenny was not a member of the revolutionary Marxist party of Ireland or the Maoist Shining Path revolution. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  I ask Deputy Stanley to conclude. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Stanley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Brian Stanley  He was a conservative man but he came up with a very practical solution regarding the cost of land. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  T\u00e1naiste----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Stanley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Brian Stanley  The cost of land is one of the things driving up the cost of housing. The Government needs to go back again and look at this. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I think my friends in the Labour Party are suggesting they were not in government then. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ged Nash  That report came out in 1973, so neither of us were born then. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  Yes. Neither Ged nor I were born so we cannot be held responsible for that one. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ged Nash  It is good report though. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  There are a couple of serious points there. This is the first time I have ever been in this House while somebody seems to be bemoaning so many Ministers coming to Laois. Deputy Stanley obviously has not met Deputy Willie Aird. It is easier to go to Laois and try to deliver. We intend to continue to visit. Deputy Stanley is right that there is no election for quite a number of years, be assured of that, but there is a hell of a lot of work to do. We intend to be out and about on the ground in communities, including the Deputy's good county of Laois, working with communities and trying to deliver. We are delivering. We are delivering a lot when it comes to infrastructure. There were two announcements of projects this week for Laois through the housing activation office. Every \u20ac3 we are going to spend on capital over the next number of years is going to be spent on housing or infrastructure to enable the delivery of housing. That is an important thing to say.  I want to acknowledge that there is good partnership. I get a bit spiky every now and again when there are different parts of the system that needs to do more. I think that is part of our job. In general there is good partnership between the Government, local government, approved housing bodies, the LDA, and bringing in Uisce \u00c9ireann and the ESB. Everybody has to work together if we are to rectify these issues.  I take the point that Deputy Stanley makes about water and the like. The change we have made to allow developer-led infrastructure in smaller communities will make a difference in County Laois, as will the rural planning guidelines, which I expect to go to Cabinet next week. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna \u00f3 Cheannair\u00ed - Leaders' Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_35","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna \u00f3 na Comhalta\u00ed Eile - Other Members\u2019 Questions","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_35","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Maxwell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Maxwell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy David Maxwell  Will the Government consider amending the incremental tenant purchase scheme 2016 to allow houses acquired under Part V of the Planning and Development Act 2000 to be made eligible for purchase under this scheme? I want to highlight today the unfairness for some tenants with the ongoing injustice within our local authority housing system. The incremental tenant purchase scheme was launched to give long-term social housing tenants a fair path towards owning their own home. It builds generational wealth, it stabilises neighbourhoods and it rewards hard-working families. Today, however, thousands of families around the country are being fundamentally locked out of this dream through no fault of their own. These are tenants living in Part V properties. Consider the reality on the ground where there are two tenants who have both paid their rent reliably for over ten years, both have identical household incomes and both are upstanding members of the local community. One tenant lives in a standard council-built housing estate and is granted a 40% to 60% discount to purchase their home while the other tenant lives just down the road in a home acquired through a private developer's Part V obligation. This second tenant is handed an outright refusal.  This is an arbitrary roadblock. It penalises families simply based on the legal mechanism the council used to acquire the land, the bricks and mortar. While we all agree on the crucial importance of protecting social housing stock, we cannot build a fair system on a foundation of discrimination. Tenants in Part V homes do not want to destroy mixed-tenure communities; they want to permanently invest in them. They want to ensure their children have a permanent stake in the area that they can call home. It is now time for the Government to review these outdated guidelines. We must introduce a fairer model that protects the State's investment while ending the housing lottery for Part V residents.  I put it to the T\u00e1naiste that this is not a theoretical issue. It is a very real and pressing concern for families across Cavan and Monaghan and around the country. Under the incremental tenant purchase scheme, houses acquired by local authorities are excluded from sale. Social housing tenants living in a Part V property cannot purchase their home through this scheme. The core issue is that many families entered these homes with the understanding that they would have an opportunity to purchase them. However, due to legislative changes introduced around 2016 that pathway has effectively been closed off on those Part V homes. These are not just houses; they are homes where people have raised families, invested their own money and built their lives. Many of these tenants are now in a position to secure a mortgage and wish to purchase their home. Due to their age, however, this opportunity will not remain open indefinitely.  Cavan and Monaghan county councils and other councils have a strong record in housing delivery. I believe there is scope for a practical and fair solution here. I am asking the Government and the Minister to consider allowing flexibility within the scheme, especially to enable local authorities to transfer Part V status in cases where tenants do not wish to purchase, thereby opening a pathway for those who do.  This is about fairness, recognising long-term tenants and enabling home ownership where it is both desired and achievable. The primary goal of the Part V is to build long-term, socially integrated and mixed-tenure communities. That is commendable but to deny a few families the chance to own their own homes that they may have lived in for up to 20 years needs to be addressed. Will the T\u00e1naiste commit to reviewing this matter? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I thank Deputy Maxwell for raising this issue on behalf of people in Cavan and Monaghan where he sees it as an issue on the ground, and it has been brought to his attention. The programme for Government and the Government's new housing plan, Delivering Homes, Building Communities, commit to maintaining the right of social housing tenants to purchase their home. The aim of the tenant incremental purchase scheme was to try to strike that balance but balance is always a subjective term that requires constant monitoring to ensure the balance is always right. That balance is between increasing the scope for those who are in receipt of long-term housing support to purchase their local authority home and doing it in a way that does not unduly diminish local authority housing stock.  As Deputy Maxwell reminded us, there is a difference at the moment where the scheme provides for the purchase by eligible tenants of council houses which are available for sale under the scheme, and the scheme is underpinned by the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2014 and the housing (sale of local authority houses) regulation of 2015. Those regulations provide for a number of specified classes of houses to be excluded from sale, including houses transferred to councils for the purpose of providing social housing under Part V, which is really the nub of the issue that Deputy Maxwell brought up. Some other classes of property, for example, houses specifically designed for older people, group Traveller housing schemes and houses provided to facilitate people with disability transferring from institutional care to community-based living are also excluded from the current scheme.  The provisions of Part V of the Planning and Development Act are, as Deputy Maxwell said, designed to enable the development of mixed-tenure sustainable communities, and to make sure that there is that mix and that the aim is not eroded over time. We all agree, and I know the Deputy said it too, that the continued development of mixed-tenure communities is important in terms of social integration and cohesion.  The Deputy's broader point about the need to review and engage on this is one that I, the Minister of State, Deputy Cummins, and the Minister, Deputy Browne, are happy to engage on as well because it is always important to keep these things under review. I know that the Deputy has some real and practical examples in his own constituency, and if he is happy to share them with me and the Ministers, we will certainly have an engagement in relation to them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Maxwell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy David Maxwell  I thank the T\u00e1naiste for his response. As I said, this affects a number of families around the country. The people who have come to my office only want to have security in the knowledge that they can own their own home. A number did get a chance before 2016 but their financial circumstances at the time did not allow them to take up that offer to secure a home loan, so they had to decline it. After making a home in these houses, working hard, saving their money and building a track record in savings, some people can now apply and be successful with a home loan application for the house they have lived in for maybe up to the past 20 years but they are now being told, \"Sorry, just keep renting it\". This is not every Part V house. Not everyone wants to buy but for the families who do, can we look at the scheme?  With the announcement of \u20ac850 million under the housing activation fund - I thank our colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Cummins, for all his work on this over the past year - to unlock houses around the country, including up to 1,195 houses in Monaghan and 750 in Cavan, and other initiatives the Government is bringing forward to help increase the housing stock, if we increase the housing stock, will that help us to alleviate that problem? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  That is a very fair way to put it. As housing supply begins to rise in Cavan, Monaghan and across the country, should we then go back and ask, \"Hang on, do the balances we had in place at a time of more constrained supply merit being looked at again?\". That is a logical thing to do.  I thank the Deputy for his words in relation to the work of the Minister of State, Deputy Cummins, who has been a real reformer with the Minister, Deputy Browne, in trying to find practical ways of increasing housing supply. The changes we have made in relation to Uisce \u00c9ireann, allowing developer-led water infrastructure, and the rural planning guidelines that we are bringing to Cabinet next week are two measures that will have benefit across the country but they will have particular benefit in constituencies like the Deputy's in Cavan and Monaghan.  We are eager and happy to engage on this issue. It is that balance. We do believe, as I know the Deputy very much does, in mixed-tenure development. We need to make sure that we do not erode that stock or mix over time but, as supply begins to increase, we will certainly keep these matters under review and are happy to engage further on it. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna \u00f3 na Comhalta\u00ed Eile - Other Members\u2019 Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_36","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Pholasa\u00ed n\u00f3 ar Reachta\u00edocht - Questions on Policy or Legislation","counts":{"speechCount":40,"speakerCount":20},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_36","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jen Cummins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ken O'Flynn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ken-O'Flynn.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ken-O'Flynn.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Roche","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Roche.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Peter-Roche.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Heydon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Heydon.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Martin-Heydon.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Currie","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fionnt\u00e1n \u00d3 S\u00failleabh\u00e1in","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fionnt\u00e1n-\u00d3-S\u00failleabh\u00e1in.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Fionnt\u00e1n-\u00d3-S\u00failleabh\u00e1in.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig O'Sullivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-O'Sullivan.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-O'Sullivan.D.2019-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pearse Doherty  The television licence is in big trouble, and it has had its day. Sales, as the T\u00e1naiste knows, have collapsed. New figures show that fewer than 300,000 licences have been sold so far this year. When we consider that nearly 1 million licences were sold in 2022, we can see the scale of the problem. One-in-three households liable to pay has simply stopped paying the television licence. It is a staggering drop in the past four years, and the public are sick to their teeth of the raft of financial scandals at RT\u00c9, the constant waste of public money and that culture of entitlement that does not seem to have gone away.  People are voting with their feet. That is the reality. Sales are plummeting every year, and it presents a real problem for the funding of public media. It also presents the Government with a decision. It has to choose whether to chase hundreds of thousands of people through the courts for not paying their television licence or it can move to a modern, sustainable funding model though the Exchequer. It is time to face reality. The TV licence has to be scrapped. Will the Government scrap the television licence or is its intention to just pursue 300,000 or 400,000 through the courts? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  It is not that crude at all. I thought that we were going through a Thursday where the Deputy was not going to call on me to abolish a tax or a charge or spend loads more money but I should have known that it is Thursday, and it happens every Thursday. The reality of the situation is that public service broadcasting matters. Public service broadcasting needs to be funded. I encourage the Deputy to support public service broadcasting. There have been a range of scandals and crises in RT\u00c9 but there are also really good and decent people working in public service broadcasting. There are also really good people working in public service broadcasting beyond RT\u00c9. I think people in Ireland value public service broadcasting; I do. I have my television licence, and I am sure the Deputy has his. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pearse Doherty  What is the T\u00e1naiste going to do about it? Will he answer the question? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jen Cummins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jen Cummins  The summer provision programme has been very difficult this year. It used to not be difficult to implement but this year it has been particularly difficult. I have spoken with parents and principals who feel very disrespected. They have had to assume an extra burden this year, and the stress has really been really unacceptable. The issues include the short timeframe that the portal was opened. It was then reopened thanks to pressure from Members, including the T\u00e1naiste. They are also upset about the business case model they have to put forward, the reduction in staffing and that the parents who did not get a school place are now not getting to get a home-based provision.  Inclusive education has been an omnishambles this academic year. Has the Government got a handle on this, and will it be able to make sure that things are sorted out for the next academic year? Will the Government apologise to any child who does not have a summer provision this year because they are going to be at home when other children are having the time of their lives in the summer? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I thank Deputy Cummins for raising the issue, and I respect and accept the sincerity in which she does so. The first thing I suggest is that in general we should be having earlier engagements and conversations in this House, in committees and, of course, with the school communities. I take that point. I suggest that perhaps at an earlier time post this summer, we have the conversation about next summer because there are always learnings. I take that point.  I am going to balance that by saying that since 2019, the summer programme has gone from strength to strength. We have more than 1,800 schools and 71,000 children participating in the programme. That compares to 545 schools and 23,000 children in 2020, so there is an increase of 210% in child participation as well. The point I am making is that there is growing demand. I thank the people who will be involved in providing the programmes across the country this year. I am very happy, and I know the Minister will be, to have a detailed discussion about any learnings from this in terms of the future. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ged Nash  Some 14 step-down beds are to be removed from the Cottage Hospital in Drogheda. This will leave Ireland's largest town with no transitional care beds whatsoever. On Tuesday, up to 30 staff at the Cottage Hospital were told that their jobs were being unilaterally moved to the Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital. This move is being justified by the HSE on the basis that there will be a net gain of step-down beds in Louth and Meath by the end of 2026 but I know for a fact that there are no plans at this point to staff those additional beds in a new unit in Ardee. What is actually happening is that the service in the Cottage Hospital is being gutted. Staff are being moved to currently unstaffed beds in Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital because management there are simply not allowed to recruit the staff that they can prove they need to staff those new beds.  Does the T\u00e1naiste agree with this robbing-Peter-to-pay-Paul strategy? It is unacceptable. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  No, I do not. I thank Deputy Nash for raising this issue. I accept the importance of it. I will follow up on the matter with the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, and the HSE and will ask that they engage with Deputy Nash today on it in the context of seeing what more can be done. I take the point that it is an expansion of capacity that we need. Let me engage further on this with the Deputy today. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Roderic O'Gorman  The transport committee has been discussing the topic of road safety for the past six months. We have heard detailed and often very upsetting evidence from a range of organisations, from cycling groups all the way through to the Road Haulage Association, and the one point that unites them all is that they all do not have confidence in the Road Safety Authority, RSA. The T\u00e1naiste will recall that in 2024 a radical reform of the RSA was proposed. This would have split it up and allowed the authority to focus on the central issue of saving lives. In December of last year, the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, and the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, scrapped that reform plan. The Minister of State attended the transport committee yesterday. He doubled down on scrapping the reform plan and said that he would prefer reform from within. Eighteen months into the lifetime of this Government, we have still no idea of what those reforms actually are. A total of 190 people died on our roads last year and 79 have died to date this year. Does the T\u00e1naiste have confidence in the RSA or does he agree with the organisations and families of victims that want to see real reform of this organisation? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I thank Deputy O'Gorman for raising this issue. I acknowledge the very good work that has been done by the Oireachtas committee, which is chaired by my colleague Deputy Michael Murphy, who continually keeps me apprised of this work. I very much look forward to the report of the committee. My message to everybody on the committee is that we should not rule anything out in relation to steps that may be needed. I approach this issue with humility. In the context of what we are doing in relation to road safety, I can only say that we need to do more. I am not satisfied that the current structures are delivering the outcome we need, but I also want to hear from the committee and to see if there can be a cross-party consensus as to what the next steps should be. I have heard different ideas from different victims' groups, including the idea of a road safety commissioner and the like. There is some logic in that. I also think of where the Road Safety Authority is today versus where it was in the past. We think of Gay Byrne and all of that era.  I have an open mind on this. I will engage with the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, and the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, but, from my perspective, the next important development is the report on road safety, which I think we expect relatively shortly from the Oireachtas committee. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ken O'Flynn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ken-O'Flynn.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ken-O'Flynn.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ken O'Flynn  Action 1.7 of the LGBTI+ Inclusion Strategy 2019-2021 contains a commitment to taking into account LGBTI+ needs in public libraries and compiling and updating a reading list under the Healthy Ireland at Your Library initiative. That includes reading materials recommended for children as young as 12. Will the T\u00e1naiste indicate who exactly reviews the reading list and the age-appropriateness of the material on it before it goes to libraries, which are serving children as young as 12? What Minister, Department or agency signs off on the list? What mechanisms are available to allow parents who find explicit sexual content on the shelves marked for 12-year-olds to have that material reviewed or removed? As the T\u00e1naiste is aware, Children's Books Ireland has already had to pull at least one title from its Pride reading guide after concerns were raised, yet the book remains on library shelves and is still linked to the HSE's parental materials. Does the T\u00e1naiste agree that parents deserve an answer as to who is responsible and what mechanism is available to them? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I truthfully do not know the answer, so I will not pretend I do. However, I will endeavour to find information and ask the relevant Minister to respond to the Deputy. All information and books should always be age appropriate. I think that is something we all believe is important in both our libraries and education system. I will ask the Minister of State with responsibility for our libraries, Deputy Buttimer, and the Minister, Deputy Calleary, to come back to Deputy O'Flynn directly. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  I ask that the Government offer some guidance to local authorities on providing access to our bathing waters for people with limited mobility or wheelchair users. The bathing season commenced on 1 June. That term is somewhat archaic. I think we need to look at it. Many people cannot access the waters, and there seems to be some divergence among local authorities as to how they address this situation. I understand that Mayo County Council is very proactive in the area. Unfortunately, however, despite having the apparatus to do so and despite there being two blue-flag beaches in Galway city, people with limited mobility or wheelchair users cannot access our bathing waters. There is a young family in my community. Their daughter, Ruby, a lovely child, is a wheelchair user and she has a strong desire to get to the bathing waters with her family when the weather is good, something I have the good fortune to be able to take for granted for my children. I ask that the Government offer some direction to local authorities as to how they can address this. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  That is a really good idea. I think of my local beach in Greystones, where tracks were put in place relatively recently that allow people to walk, push buggies, use wheelchairs, etc. This has been transformational in terms of improving accessibility to the beach. The Deputy's point about accessing bathing water in and of itself is an important one. We are back to this issue again. We do not have to split the atom here. If some counties are doing it well and others are not, we need to share that information. On foot of the Deputy raising this today, I will certainly ask that this happens. I am sitting beside the Minister of State with responsibility for local government. I will ask that we look at how we would convey best practice from some local authorities to others. We will come back to the Deputy directly. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Roche","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Roche.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Peter-Roche.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Peter Roche  As the T\u00e1naiste is aware, this is Men's Health Week. Government policy acknowledges or recognises that improving men's health has clear benefits for families, partners and children right across society. A key part of that is the experience of early parenthood. I refer to paternity leave in particular in this regard. A report this week titled Extra Time with Dad shows that Ireland is falling way behind. We provide just two weeks' paternity leave. That is the EU minimum and it ranks near the bottom in OECD terms of leave for partners. In practice, many dads face a 75% drop in income while on leave. Some seven in ten of them rely on top-ups from their employers, with a similar proportion experiencing financial strain. Does the Government acknowledge and see the need to address that deficit? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I thank Deputy Roche for raising this important matter. Of course, we all want to make sure that new parents, mums and dads, are able to spend time with their babies. There are currently two weeks of paternity leave available in Ireland. It is also important to say there are also nine weeks of parent's leave and benefit available to both parents. Parent's benefit is currently paid at a rate of \u20ac299 per week. Let us be truthful here: the take-up of parent's leave is much lower among men than it is among women. Again, we should try to unpack this because I think some of the issues the Deputy talks about may well be correct: young families, mortgages to pay, financial commitments and people trying to balance a range of issues and bills that a household will face. There is a commitment in the programme for Government to introduce pay-related parent's benefit whereby your payment would be linked to your salary, similar to what we have done in relation to pay-related jobseeker's benefit. That is a good model. People who have worked hard and paid into the system then are able to get something back from that system at a time when they might need it as well. It is a commitment I am keen to see progressed, and I will ask that the Minister, Deputy Calleary, updates Deputy Roche on it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Thomas Gould  There is a huge issue with scramblers in my constituency. Following the new laws that came in earlier this year in the aftermath of the tragic death of 16-year-old Grace Lynch, communities were hoping that this would see a reduction in the use of scramblers. However, I have had to phone the Garda numerous times in the intervening period. On Monday night last, I had to phone the Garda three times because of scramblers being driven in a dangerous manner in communities right across the northside, including on St. Mary's Road, Sprigg's Road and Kilmore Road. In Fairfield, there is a beautiful park that Cork City Council put in, a walk-around for people, but the scramblers are using it like a track. I met with people there two weeks ago. They said that they tried to talk to the lads on the scramblers to tell them that it is dangerous but that all they are getting is abuse. We have a serious issue now. Local garda\u00ed tell me they do not have the resources. I am asking the T\u00e1naiste for two things. First, will the Government give the Garda the resources to tackle this and to stop it and to tackle these scramblers? Second, will it give local authorities funding to put in tracks or trails? Some people do not want to play sport. They want to be in the arts or they want to drive cars or bikes. They have to be given an outlet, and right now there is nowhere for them to go. What must happen immediately is that the use of scramblers must be stopped, because I fear there could be another tragedy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I thank Deputy Gould for raising this issue. I met with Grace Lynch's parents last week and was really struck not only their advocacy but also - I do not wish to speak for them - by the very clear views they have on what more that can and should be done in this space.  I am very happy that we would engage with Deputy Gould on this as well. There is definitely an issue. I had a good conversation with the Minister for justice and the Minister for Transport on it this week. There is a legitimate issue around supporting the Garda, including potentially in relation to their driving training, resourcing and the likes. In fairness to the Minister, Deputy Jim O'Callaghan, he is very much committed to that. I also think there is a real issue around ownership and how we track and trace it. Other countries, quite frankly, have done that better than we have so far. I have mixed views - \"mixed views\" might be the wrong phrase - on the facility piece because from some of what I hear back, I am not sure if some of these people are looking for somewhere to go and do this. I think, and the Deputy would see it in his own constituency, there is sometimes an element of intimidation and the likes. I will reflect more on that point. On foot of the Deputy raising this, I will ask that the Ministers, Deputies O'Brien and O'Callaghan, come back to him with an outline of the next steps we intend to take. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Thomas Gould  Thank you. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Collins  In light of the ongoing and deepening crisis in the fishing sector and the severe impact it continues to have on coastal and inland communities, can the Minister provide an update on the fishing task force established by the Government earlier in 2026 to examine the future sustainability and viability of the sector? Can he confirm the task force has met in accordance with its intended schedule, the number of meetings that have taken place, and the current status of its work? When can fisherman and affected communities expect concrete measures arising from the process? Given the urgency on the ground, will he also clarify what interim supports or actions are being advanced pending the task force's final report? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Heydon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Heydon.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Martin-Heydon.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine (Deputy Martin Heydon)  I thank Deputy Collins for raising this important issue. The Food Vision seafood sector group was launched on 16 February by me and my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Dooley. The group was established in a response to the significantly reduced fishing opportunities for 2026 and will operate under the auspices of the Food Vision 2030 group, through which we have had a series of Food Vision subgroups to look at and tackle key areas. It is considering the challenges facing all three components of the Irish seafood sector, from the catch fisheries, aquaculture and seafood processing. The group's membership is comprised of representatives from across the seafood industry. Mr. Michael Berkery, the former general secretary of the IFA, has been appointed as the independent chairperson for this group.  In answer to the Deputy's direct question, he was tasked with drafting a chairman's report by June of this year. There has been a series of meetings since 16 February, the meeting of the task force group that I attended in Howth. The deadline for receipt of seafood industry submissions was 2 March. On 10 and 11 March, there were five sector-specific meetings held in the Department's Backweston campus. Representatives from across the seafood industry have attended and have had a series of meetings. That work has been ongoing. I commend everyone on their very strong commitment to this and look forward to receiving the chairman's report in the near future. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Currie","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Emer Currie  When Coolmine Community School opened in 1974, it was one of Ireland's first community schools and a trail-blazer for education. It had an enviable mix of academic achievements, extracurricular activities and social activity. For many in Dublin West, it represented a modern community with a strong sense of identity and pride. Many of the parents of students attending today are former students who remember that pride. More than 50 years later, however, the building remains largely unchanged. While Blanchardstown has grown into one of Ireland's largest and most dynamic communities, the spaces where our students learn have been left behind. The young people of today deserve facilities that are as ambitious as they are, and that match the quality of education they are getting at Coolmine. Very recently the school's patron and the board of management submitted an application for a new school building under the major capital works programme. I have looked at the figures. Between 2015 and 2023, over seven years, \u20ac750,000 was put into emergency works. More has gone in since I was elected. Can the T\u00e1naiste encourage the Minister, Deputy Naughton, to visit the school, which I am doing, and give its development the priority it really deserves? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I thank Deputy Currie for raising this project. She has worked with Coolmine Community School and the board of management to get an application for a new building into the Department, which was submitted a couple of weeks ago. I can confirm that the Department received the application from Coolmine Community School on 5 May for that large-scale capital funding to provide a new school building. The Department recently already agreed a brief for the provision of two special education classrooms as well, which will be delivered as quickly as possible through modern methods of construction. The application that is submitted now will go through its detailed appraisal and there will be good engagement with the school. On foot of the Deputy raising this today, I will ask the Minister, Deputy Naughton, to visit the school with her in the near future. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  The results of a survey of parents in Kildare have been published, the majority of whom do not have access to childcare in September. What those results mean is that a number of parents are not able to go back to work. They are having to reduce their hours or give up their jobs because they simply cannot access a fairly basic service in a very fast-growing county. We are seeing significant issues in Kildare regarding capacity and conditions for the workforce. While we still seem to be no closer to that \u20ac200 per month commitment, I really welcome the State-led pilot. It has the potential to do something really positive but I think we would all agree that is in the medium to long term. What can I say to these parents in Naas, Kilcock, Maynooth and Celbridge who really have no option but to give up their job because they cannot access this childcare service? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I thank the Deputy for raising this issue. On foot of his raising it, I will specifically ask the Minister, Deputy Foley, to engage with him on the particular and immediate issue he is highlighting in Kildare. I take that point. When I talk about what we are going to do more broadly, he is highlighting an issue that is a factor in the here and now for people. We are significantly increasing our investment to childcare, core funding and the employment agreements for people working in childcare. We are fully committed to that \u20ac200 per child, per month in the lifetime of the Government. That is a commitment in the lifetime of the programme for Government. Myself, the Minister, Deputy Chambers, and the Taoiseach have all said we want to see progress made on that over the course of the next four budgets. Specifically in the here and now, I will ask the Minister, Deputy Foley, to come back to the Deputy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruth Coppinger  The FAI released a statement on 12 June justifying playing Israel behind closed doors and outside Ireland. It spoke of consultation with stakeholders, in particular the Palestinian Football Association which the statement strongly implied backed the FAI's position. Today, the Palestinian Football Association has had to release a statement saying it did not endorse or support the decision to proceed with the games: \"[O]ur position regarding Israeli football remains unchanged and unequivocal.\" It stated that: \"[T]he PFA categorically rejects any attempt to promote or impose matches with an occupying power that systematically targets Palestinian athletes and sports infrastructure.\"  Did the FAI not deceive the people of Ireland and the global media with this claim? Did it not shamefully twist the words of the most hard-pressed and vulnerable sports association? Will the T\u00e1naiste call on the FAI to come in front of an Oireachtas committee to explain this and the entire venture? I refer also to the sports Ministers who are backing these immoral games and shameful decision. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  Of course, the Ministers are not doing that at all. Let us be clear. This is a decision the FAI has to take. If we start making decisions on the floor of the D\u00e1il in relation to running Irish soccer, God knows where we will end up. The reality is there are very clear rules that UEFA and FIFA have. Those rules specifically exclude and preclude parliaments from making decisions in relation to the governing authorities. The FAI has gone through a process, I think it has gone through a robust process. It has made a decision. The last thing any one of us would want to do is take a decision that ends up benefiting the Israeli football team and disadvantaging the Irish soccer team. I hear about what the players have had to say about not wanting pressure in relation to them.  I have not seen that statement from the Palestinian Football Association. I take in good faith what the Deputy said. My own note tells me that the Palestinian Football Association stated: \"The Palestinian Football Association expresses its appreciation for the principled positions taken by the Football Association of Ireland in support of the rights of the Palestinian people and Palestinian athletes.\" "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruth Coppinger  Today's statement was contradicting the way the FAI used that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  In fairness, that statement says that the Palestinian Football Association expresses its appreciation. There should always be engagement between governing bodies that the taxpayer funds. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire  Parents in Cork could be spending \u20ac800 to \u20ac900 a month for childcare. That is if there is only one child they need childcare for. It could be well over \u20ac1,000, or \u20ac1,500 if they have two children. It is absolutely breaking families, and that is if they can find childcare facilities at all. In large parts of my constituency, in places like Douglas and Carrigaline, it is effectively impossible to find a place. The T\u00e1naiste went to the people in the last election and talked about \u20ac200 a month. The new maximum fee cap of \u20ac183.70 a week is a reduction but is still closer to \u20ac200 a week. We are a very considerable distance from \u20ac200 a month.  This is absolutely breaking families. The T\u00e1naiste and his party like to talk about the squeezed middle. Any parent who needs childcare is definitely in the squeezed middle. There is no doubt about that. We have not seen any progress in the last budget. We need to see progress in this budget for families who are absolutely broken by childcare costs. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  We definitely needed to see more progress and the Minister, Deputy Foley, is ambitious about making that progress. Under the new maximum fee caps, we have seen the highest possible upfront cost for a typical full-day place of 45 hours per week drop. The Deputy is correct that that is still too high. However, the cost has dropped from \u20ac198 per week to \u20ac183.70 per week. The commitment is very clear. It is not just my commitment; it is a commitment every political party in the House gave. The parties in government and Opposition parties agreed that the direction of travel is to get to \u20ac200 per child per month in the lifetime of this Oireachtas. That commitment is in the programme for Government. It is a commitment every member of the Government has signed up to. I agree with the Deputy that we need to make more progress in the budget. I, along with the Minister, Deputy Chambers, the Taoiseach and the Minister, Deputy Foley, have all said that is our intention. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fionnt\u00e1n \u00d3 S\u00failleabh\u00e1in","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fionnt\u00e1n-\u00d3-S\u00failleabh\u00e1in.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Fionnt\u00e1n-\u00d3-S\u00failleabh\u00e1in.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Fionnt\u00e1n \u00d3 S\u00failleabh\u00e1in  When will the long overdue emergency funding for rural roads in Wicklow and Wexford be delivered? The T\u00e1naiste may have driven on some in the south-west of Wicklow. It is absolutely disgraceful that we are now in June, in the middle of a dry period, when it is perfect to do works. We have waited since November, when Storm Claudia struck. Wicklow County Council sought between \u20ac15 million and \u20ac20 million and Wexford sought a similar amount. These counties have historically had the worst rural roads in Ireland. I have been driving on them all of my life. In Wexford, \u20ac194 million is needed to bring the roads up to what is classed as an acceptable standard. It is a perfect time to do the work. I have repeatedly requested funding since November, and for the past 12 years. It is absolutely shocking that those of us who live in rural Ireland and drive on small country roads have to have our cars wrecked and are unable to drive on safe roads. When will the funding be delivered? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I thank the Deputy for raising the issue. As he knows, I know the roads in Wicklow and Wexford well. He is correct that like many counties in the country they saw a significant impact from that storm. Work has been underway. I spoke to Wicklow County Council about submitting documentation to the Government, which I am sure also applies to Wexford. That has happened, in fairness. I would like to see the process come to a conclusion very quickly. The Deputy is correct that there is a window when the weather is relatively better than it often is. It is a concern for Deputies across the House. I will follow up with the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, and come back to the Deputy with a timeline. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  I wish to raise the significant issue of back-to-school costs. It is my understanding that children who are entitled to school-based July provision will have to pay upwards of \u20ac120 for extracurricular activities during that period. I also wish to raise a significant issue in regard to schools requiring children to get laptops, tablets or ICT equipment for the coming academic year. It is my understanding that the Minister, Deputy Naughton, has written to all of the relevant schools in regard to this, but schools are still requiring them. A parent has contacted me. She is a carer for her husband and does not receive carer's allowance due to the means coming into the house and is not entitled to any exceptional needs payment. Anybody who applies for an exceptional needs payment to pay for ICT equipment finds the payment does not cover that. Will the Government extend the exceptional needs payment to cover ICT equipment for schools? Will it also look into the payment of upwards of \u20ac120 for those availing of school-based July provision for extra curricular activities? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I thank Deputy Kenny for raising this issue, which is quite a serious one. The summer programme is fully funded by the Department of Education and Youth and schools are supposed to run the programme within the budget provided by the Department. I am not unfairly having a go. Of course small costs above and beyond might arise and a decision may be made to do something outside the programme. I get that somewhat. The level of cost the Deputy is highlighting is completely at odds with the purpose of the programme, which is taxpayer funded as part of the education system and open to all who qualify for it. I ask that the Deputy pass on the information to the Minister for Education and Youth who will examine it. The Deputy's second point is also correct. There is cross-party consensus on the idea of free school books. What we do not want to see is that free school books are now free school books being replaced with everything going onto a tablet, laptop or the likes. The Minister has written schools about this. I ask that she further engage with the Deputy on this on foot of him raising the issue. I will speak to the Minister, Deputy Calleary, about the exceptional needs payment and he will come back to the Deputy directly. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  I wish to raise the ongoing and very serious issue of excessive waiting times in the accident and emergency department in Cavan General Hospital. As the T\u00e1naiste is aware, residents of County Monaghan do not have access to an accident and emergency department in their county. Instead, they have to travel to Cavan hospital to receive emergency care. This places significant and unstable pressure on services. I continue to receive deeply concerning reports from constituents who are waiting for up to 24 hours before being seen by a nurse or doctor. The situation is simply not acceptable. Today, I urge the T\u00e1naiste to consider the case for restoring a full accident and emergency service at Monaghan hospital. Doing so would significantly alleviate the pressure on Cavan hospital and ensure that the people of Monaghan, a county with a growing population of over 65,000, have timely and safe access to emergency care. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I thank Deputy Bennett. While we do not have plans to open new emergency departments, we do have plans to continue to drive investment into hospitals at levels 2 and 3, including Monaghan hospital. I remember visiting it a number of years ago. It is a very good hospital and it is ambitious about doing more. On foot of the Deputy raising this issue, I will ask the Minister for Health to come back to her on Cavan emergency department wait times and any further plans in regard to Monaghan. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig O'Sullivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-O'Sullivan.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-O'Sullivan.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy P\u00e1draig O'Sullivan  We all know the great work done in our maternity wards across the country. I would like to thank all of the doctors, nurses, midwives and consultants who provide care for women across the country. My wife gave birth to our three children in the maternity ward in CUH and received the best of care. It has come to my attention that for some reason one of the State's four tertiary maternity hospitals serving the south of Ireland, CUH, does not have a dedicated consultant in maternal medicine to manage complex medical conditions in pregnancy. Is there a plan for funding and recruitment to establish such a service or post? Can the T\u00e1naiste bring this matter to the attention of the Minister for Health and HSE? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I thank the Deputy for raising the issue. I will bring it to the attention of the Minister for Health and ask that she engage with the Deputy directly on the women and infants health programme and the HSE on the need for that consultant post for complex conditions during pregnancy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  I also want to raise summer provision, something I raised a number of weeks ago. I welcome that the application process reopened and thank the T\u00e1naiste for that. I want to raise concerns brought to my attention by schools in respect of delays with approvals and information from the Department regarding staffing requirements, in particular for schools which are seeking additional staffing requirements to deal with children with higher needs. There is a total lack of certainty. These schools are under intense pressure as they try to prepare for the summer programme in the coming weeks. I ask the Minister to take the matter up with the Department as a matter of urgency. There are further delays in terms of approvals for home-based provision. Many parents across the country are in the dark as to what approvals they will get. As the T\u00e1naiste knows, teachers and SNAs need to be sourced for home-based provision. Parents are in a very difficult position. I ask the T\u00e1naiste to please take this matter back to the Department and ask him to inject some urgency into this and get information back to parents and schools. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I thank Deputy McGrath for raising this issue. It is not the first time he has raised it. He raised the application process window on a previous occasion and I was pleased that we were in a position to reopen it. I will now speak with Ministers Naughton and Moynihan on clarity and staff requirements for schools, in particular the issue the Deputy highlighted around home-based provision and the need for clarity for parents. I am conscious it is a very tight window. As I said earlier, and I say sincerely, once we get through the summer we should have broader engagement on how we can learn lessons. The Minister and the Government are very committed to the programme. We have seen a huge increase in the number of people using it and the number of schools availing of it, which is all great, but there are timeline issues and clarity could perhaps ease the stress and anxiety for people in future years. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Cuireadh an D\u00e1il ar fionra\u00ed ar 1.19 p.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 1.59 p.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Sitting suspended at 1.19 p.m. and resumed at 1.59 p.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna ar Pholasa\u00ed n\u00f3 ar Reachta\u00edocht - Questions on Policy or Legislation"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_37","debateType":"statement","bill":null,"showAs":"Rare Diseases: Statements","counts":{"speechCount":44,"speakerCount":27},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_37","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig O'Sullivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-O'Sullivan.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-O'Sullivan.D.2019-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Cullinane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"R\u00e9ada Cronin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Natasha Newsome Drennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Duncan Smith","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Duncan-Smith.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Duncan-Smith.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Erin McGreehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Ward.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Barry-Ward.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Carrigy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Lahart","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Lahart.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Lahart.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Health (Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill)  I begin not with policy, but with people. I acknowledge with sincerity and respect the people across Ireland who are living with a rare disease and the parents, partners, children, siblings, carers, families and friends who walk that journey with them every single day. The Government is committed to improving the lives of people living with rare diseases. That means working to support earlier diagnosis, better co-ordinated care, appropriate access to treatment and stronger patient partnership. I acknowledge the work of Members of both Houses, including Deputies Lahart and P\u00e1draig O'Sullivan and Senator Costello, in continuing to raise awareness of rare diseases and the experience of patients and families.  We know that many rare conditions are complex, lifelong and, in some cases, life limiting. We also know that families can face real challenges in accessing diagnoses, services, medicines, technologies and supports in a timely and co-ordinated way. That is why the programme for Government includes commitments to publish and fund a new national rare diseases strategy, improve access to orphan medicines and examine new approaches to earlier reimbursement of certain treatments, including an early access scheme for rare diseases.  Last August, we published the National Rare Disease Strategy 2025-2030, which gives Ireland a clear national framework for improving diagnosis, treatment and support for people living with rare diseases. At its heart, the strategy is about improving quality of life, supporting fairer access to healthcare and making sure that innovation in research and treatment translates into real benefits for patients and families. It responds to a reality that many families know all too well. While each rare disease may affect a small number of people, rare diseases together represent a significant public health challenge. An estimated 300,000 people in Ireland are living with a rare disease, and the impact on individuals, families, health services and wider society can be substantial and complex.  To ensure the strategy moves from words to action, a three-year strategic implementation plan is being finalised. Its purpose is to turn the strategy's recommendations into clear actions, timelines and governance arrangements in order that progress can be planned, tracked and delivered in a way people can see and feel. The first phase of implementation will focus on priority actions across several important work streams, including research and innovation, international co-operation, European reference networks, data and registries, education and public information, and screening, diagnosis and access. Across all of that work, three cross-cutting themes will remain central, namely, governance and accountability, implementation and monitoring, and patient partnership. The latter is highly important and even more so when it comes to the nuances of people's experience of rare disease.  In every discussion about rare diseases in this House, people reference the real lives of the children, young people, adults and families in their areas who carry a weight that is often unseen. Families may spend years searching for answers, moving from appointment to appointment and telling their story again and again, hoping somebody will join the dots for them. For many people, living with a rare disease is defined not only by a diagnosis, but by uncertainty, waiting and having to navigate a system that was never designed for something so complex. That is why it is so important that we are discussing rare diseases here today. I thank those who called for the debate, including Deputy P\u00e1draig O'Sullivan, who is in the Chair. It is important that we lend not just our voice, but also our commitment to action.  Collectively, rare diseases are not rare at all. There are more than 8,000 different rare diseases, with approximately 300,000 people in Ireland and 30 million people across Europe living with such diseases. That is one in every 17 people. It is not a marginal issue. In fact, it touches every community, every county and every constituency represented in this House. One of the strongest messages I hear, and I know Deputies hear it too, is about the importance of listening to patients. People living with rare diseases want their experiences to shape the services on which they rely. They want to be treated as partners whose expertise is trusted. The national rare disease strategy makes clear that people living with a rare disease must be treated not as passive recipients of care, but as equal partners in shaping policy and services. That is fundamental to better decision making, better design and better outcomes. It is why patient and public involvement must run through every aspect of our response, from policy formulation and service design to research, clinical trials, awareness and education. If we are serious about reform, we must be serious about listening and about how we listen.  A point I hear clearly from patients, families and advocates relates not only to access to care, but to how that care is experienced. For many people living with rare diseases, care can still feel fragmented, with different appointments, different specialists, different locations and different parts of the system that do not always connect as they should. That is even more significant when it comes to parents bringing their children to different appointments in the paediatric hospital system. That process could be much better co-ordinated from the perspective of the child and the family, particularly those families that have to travel for appointments, which often will be many times in a single month. When that disconnect happens, the burden falls on individuals and their whole families as they try to hold everything together. The national rare disease strategy is very clear on that point. It calls for equitable, inclusive and integrated health and social care, including access to wrap-around supports, better transitions between child and adult services and improved care co-ordination. It acknowledges the particular burden created when people and families are left to co-ordinate complex care themselves across multiple specialties and settings.  A total of 13 care co-ordinators have been provided to support patients in navigating the health service. We are also continuing to develop integrated rare disease care pathways, several of which have already been developed and approved. The HSE's national rare diseases office hosted a symposium in May focused on improving diagnostic pathways, care pathways and supports. It brought together patients, policymakers and healthcare professionals. Two further events are planned later this year. That engagement is important. Care pathways are not an abstract policy tool. For people living with rare diseases, they mean the difference between joined-up care and fragmentation; between clarity and confusion; and between confidence and crisis.  We must be honest in acknowledging that accessing integrated, organised and well-co-ordinated care remains one of the major pressures felt by families, as they have articulated clearly. When community, disability, primary care and acute services do not align as they should, the burden falls back on the individual and the family. That is not fair. Awareness and education among healthcare professionals are greatly improving and the implementation plan addresses those issues directly. For far too many families, however, their experience is still one of navigating complexity alone.  When I launched the national rare diseases strategy last August, a phrase that really stuck with me, which I understand captures the experience of many families, is \"diagnostic odyssey\". It refers to the long, painful journey to find out what is wrong, which often leads to years of uncertainty in which symptoms progress but answers do not come. The strategy addresses this directly, acknowledging that many individuals wait far too long for an accurate diagnosis and that this delay can have lasting consequences. This situation is not unique to Ireland. The World Health Organization has highlighted that many people across the world never receive a timely or adequate diagnosis. It has emphasised that improving early diagnosis must be a priority. When diagnosis is delayed, everything else is delayed, including access to treatment, support and understanding. That is why early diagnosis is so crucial. It helps to bring certainty and, in some cases, it can change the course of a condition entirely.  That is why the continued expansion of newborn screening is such an important step forward. I acknowledge the presence in the Chamber of the deputy chief medical officer, Professor Ellen Crushell, who works in paediatric care and is working alongside me to try to bring in as many conditions as possible. We have seen progress this year with the introduction in April of screening for rare conditions such as severe combined immunodeficiency, SCID, and spinal muscular atrophy, SMA, which brought the total number of conditions screened for under the newborn bloodspot screening programme to 11. This can allow intervention to begin earlier, when it matters most, thereby slowing or preventing progression in some cases.  This is just a beginning and not the end. Every step we take toward earlier diagnosis is a step towards a fairer system in which families do not have to fight so hard simply to be understood. The national screening advisory committee, NSAC, and its dedicated newborn screening subgroup continue to work to review and consider further expansions of the newborn screening programme. I have given a political direction that it is an absolute priority to work as quickly and efficiently as possible to bring in as many conditions as we can as quickly as we can, recognising the enormous impact it can have on families to be able to find out what the situation is with their child much sooner than might otherwise be the case.  The national strategy for accelerating genetic and genomic medicine in Ireland was launched in December 2022. It sets out a clear vision for a modern, national genetics and genomics service that is equitable, timely and centred on patients and their families. It recognises that advances in genomics are transforming how we understand disease, particularly rare disease, and commits to building a system where people can access the right test at the right time informed by clinical need. In practical terms, that means developing national infrastructure, strengthening laboratory capacity, supporting clinical workforce expertise and ensuring genetic and genomic services are integrated into everyday care in order that earlier diagnosis becomes the norm, not the exception.  The HSE\u2019s national genetics and genomics office was established in 2023 to implement that strategy and to co-ordinate a national approach to genetics and genomics, ensuring patient and public involvement and partnerships, building the workforce for the future, enhancing clinical services, and strengthening infrastructure. We are now beginning to see that vision take concrete form. The national genomic test directory, launched at the end of 2024, is a significant step forward in delivering a more consistent and equitable approach to testing across the country. It was developed by the HSE\u2019s national genetics and genomics office and the directory sets out clearly which genetic tests should be used for specific clinical indications, who should receive them, and how they are to be delivered. It is designed to ensure that patients receive the most appropriate test, in a timely way, and in the correct setting, reducing variation, avoiding duplication and supporting better clinical decision-making. The test directory's initial focus was specifically in the area of rare and inherited diseases, and now it is looking to expand the test to other specialties.  The test directory operates alongside the national genomic processing service, which was launched earlier this year. This is a centralised pre- and post-analytical service that manages sample processing and routing to quality assessed laboratories for genomic testing, as well as the return of associated reports, which then streamlines and accelerates the flow of samples and results. For families who have too often experienced delay and uncertainty, this represents an important step towards a more streamlined, predictable, and responsive diagnostic system, one that can shorten the diagnostic journey and bring clarity sooner in the lives of those who need it. We will continue to strive for timely diagnosis through improved care pathways and build our capacity in genetics and genomics.  I want to speak also about hope because hope is often what sustains families through the hardest moments. For people living with rare diseases, that hope is often tied to treatment, particularly in relation to orphan medicines. These are often newly developed, high-tech and high-cost treatments, with limited or emerging evidence. These are treatments that give people hope where it might not otherwise be found. Specific treatments have only been developed for a small proportion of rare diseases, which makes every advance significant. The national rare disease strategy recognises this reality. It clearly states that orphan medicines can offer hope where previously little existed, and it aligns with the programme for Government commitment to review options for earlier reimbursement of orphan medicinal products and to examine, which we are doing, early access schemes for rare diseases.  The Government recognises the importance of access to innovative medicines for patients in Ireland, especially for patients diagnosed with rare diseases. Annual public expenditure on medicines is now approaching \u20ac4 billion, which is an extraordinarily sizeable sum and a very significant investment by the State. Recent budgets have provided dedicated funding for new medicines, supporting the HSE in approving reimbursement for a substantial number of new medicines, including many medicines for rare diseases.  The recent framework agreements on the supply and pricing of medicines, finalised in March 2026, are designed to enable faster access to new innovative medicines, to strengthen security of supply, and to support a structured process towards a 180-day timeline for reimbursement decisions by quarter 1 of 2029. I want to thank all of the State representatives and pharmaceutical sector representatives who concluded this agreement because it is for the benefit of all of us that we have this measure of certainty for the next four years, particularly at a time of very difficult and changing geopolitical external circumstances.  Crucially, the State and the pharmaceutical sector also agreed to develop a piloted, early access programme for rare diseases, in line with the programme for Government commitment. That matters hugely. For families waiting for access, timelines are not abstract. They are measured not in months but in moments that matter to each person and each family. I am conscious that access to orphan medicines is complex. It necessarily involves questions of evidence because we are a country that is still determined to focus on science and scientific outcomes and evidence. It necessarily involves questions of evidence. It necessarily involves budget implications, sustainability and fairness across the health service. Those are practically impossible conditions to ask anybody to make decisions in and yet the people in our national centre for pharmacoeconomics are tasked with making exactly those decisions. I want to thank them for their work in making such complex and difficult decisions.  We are trying to improve the system responsibly, transparently and in a way that better serves patients. That is why I have now approved a comprehensive, end-to-end review of the entire medicines approval and reimbursement services, covering every stage, from initial assessment through to final patient access. That has now progressed to tender stage, with an anticipated completion timeframe of six to nine months, once the contract is awarded. The aim of the work is clear. It is to identify where delays in our processes arise, where our processes can be streamlined and how we can ensure that decisions are made as efficiently and transparently as possible, while maintaining the necessary rigorous clinical and value assessments. I want to be clear that it is up to us to be disciplined in our processes but it is also the responsibility of the pharmaceutical companies that have developed these medicines to make the applications to us in a timely and complete way so that people know that we are able to assess them. That is not always the case. Sometimes the fault is on our side and sometimes it is on theirs. What we are trying to do is make sure that our processes are as robust and tight as possible in every way to make sure we are discharging our obligation and responsibility to get the medicines we can get that are evidence based and that we can sustain for people who need them.  The framework agreement we reached, the early access, the commitment to the move towards a 180-day reimbursement timeline and partnership and urgency from all parties can translate into faster, fairer access to orphan medicines for those who need them most. This is exceptionally important to me my Department and I know to every person in this House.  I am very conscious of the advocacy of individuals and families whose lives have been affected by rare diseases. Some of those have been very topical and in the news because of European Medicine Agency, EMA, approval for certain drugs. Many of those drugs are not available across Europe at the moment. It is very much a country-by-country experience at the moment. I am conscious, in particular, of those people whose lives are affected Friedreich\u2019s ataxia, a rare genetic neurological condition. I know that many Deputies may raise access to treatment for this condition today, and I want to respond carefully and respectfully. I met many of the families and many of the people suffering from Friedreich's ataxia, privately and in the audiovisual room briefing. I was very glad to have the opportunity to meet those patients, as I have had the opportunity to meet other patients.  Skyclarys has been authorised at European level for Friedreich\u2019s ataxia. In Ireland, as with other medicines, any decision on reimbursement must follow the statutory pricing and reimbursement process I have just described. The National Centre for Pharmacoeconomics carried out a rapid review and recommended a full health-technology assessment to consider the clinical effectiveness and cost effectiveness of the medicine. That application remains under active consideration by the HSE. The discussions and the information received and the timing is all of real interest - of course, it is - to all of the patients and their families. Again, I would reference my earlier comments about the need for both parties to provide all the relevant information at an early stage. The application remains under active consideration and I cannot discuss commercial negotiations, which are confidential to the State and would prejudice all us were I to do so. Please forgive me that I am not able to go further in my remarks than this.  I want to emphasise that, as Minister for Health, I do not necessarily have a role in pricing and reimbursement decisions. We have created our political institutions to be robust and independent. We have given protection to scientists making these decisions in our collective interest. We have increased access to medicines because of the processes that we have put our confidence in. That will generate many good days and it may also generate difficult days but we have to continue to believe in a system that is based on science and that has served us well so far. The decisions are made by the HSE under the 2013 Act, which Deputies are familiar with. They are informed by clinical, economic, budgetary and other relevant considerations. No reimbursement decision has yet been made on Skyclarys.  I really understand that for families this sort of process language can feel very distant from the reality of living with a progressive condition. I also understand the frustration when a medicine has been authorised at European level but has not yet completed the national reimbursement process. I discussed this with my colleagues in Luxembourg on Tuesday last. We talked about the difficulties that many countries, particularly small ones, are facing in this regard. This drug is not authorised or available right across the EU. It is different in every country. However, the issue more broadly is about access to drugs and companies making applications for drugs that have been approved by the EMA and to be able to be the sort of market that can attract and fund applications is really difficult for many of us. I still feel that many of the European countries are working - not deliberately against each other as such - in a vacuum of information because of the confidential pricing structure that in many cases gives all of the information to the company and not to the European states that might work better in partnership. We really need to reflect on this.  As I said, authorisation and reimbursement are at different stage right across Europe in relation to this medication and other medications.  I have asked my officials to continue to engage very closely with the HSE on the progression of all rare disease medicines through the reimbursement pathway while respecting the statutory independence of the HSE\u2019s decision-making process and protecting the independence of the scientists involved. I fully understand the extreme difficultly for families. That is why the wider programme for Government commitments on orphan medicines, reimbursement timelines and early access are so important. We must improve access responsibly, fairly and transparently while ensuring that decisions are evidence based, science based and sustainable for the health service as a whole.  We are beginning to see tangible progress in individual conditions. One example is Duchenne muscular dystrophy, a rare, progressive and life-limiting condition that affects boys and young men and on which families have advocated. I was pleased to have the opportunity to meet some of the patients and families who were waiting for a reimbursement decision following EMA approval last June. I am pleased to say that the medicine givinostat was recently recommended for reimbursement by the HSE\u2019s drugs group and was approved by the HSE senior leadership team just this week. It represents a positive step forward, not only for those directly affected, but for what it demonstrates more broadly. I thank the HSE for the speed with which it acted in relation to this at health technology assessment, HTA, level, at rapid review level and at every other stage of this process. Where the decision or process was with the HSE, it acted with real speed.  In order to get this application made in Ireland, I had to ask the Italian health minister not once, but twice, to encourage the Italian company to make the application in Ireland. The Taoiseach had to ask Prime Minister Meloni to encourage the Italian company to make the application in Ireland. That was a real barrier and we were trying to do our best within it. I hope that the genuine efforts we are trying to make within the constraints of companies making applications within Ireland is reflected honestly to patients, both as regards givinostat and the other medication, Skyclarys. It shows the drive and resolve of the HSE in terms of making these decisions very quickly and not adding to the time it takes to get access to important medicines.  I want to reflect that we are seeing important developments at a European level that will help shape access to medicines for people with diseases, in particular rare diseases. The reform of the EU pharmaceutical legislation, often referred to as the EU pharma package, is the most significant overhaul of the sector in 20 years and has a clear focus on access to safe, effective and affordable medicines. We are trying to actively see how we can partner with other member states to make us a more attractive market for pharmaceutical companies for new and innovative drugs.  For orphan medicines, we are trying to strengthen incentives for innovation while encouraging faster and more consistent availability of treatments. That complements wider European work on critical medicines, biotechnology, life sciences and clinical trials, and it reinforces our own national efforts. With the European Presidency, I will be president of the European health Council and Ireland will hold the pen to make as much progress as possible in relation to medical devices regulations and the biotechnology Act, as well as progressing the trilogues with the European Parliament on the biotech directive.  With the Minister, Peter Burke, I have just from four hours of meetings this morning with the life sciences and pharmaceutical sector to work out how we can do better at bringing the innovation that is developed in Ireland to patients in Ireland through the life sciences strategy and other ways. We really are trying. However, it is important that people understand that, by virtue of our small market size, Ireland is not always prioritised by pharmaceutical companies launching new medicines. We benefit from working with like-minded states such as through the Beneluxa initiative. Beneluxa plays a role in member states\u2019 shared priority of securing access to high-cost, innovative treatments in an affordable way while respecting the national competencies of pricing and reimbursement.  We have been working closely on the initiative on horizon scanning, health technology assessments, information sharing and policy exchanges but there is a great deal more we can do in streamlining European processes. We have had some success through the Beneluxa initiative already, for example, the reimbursement of Libmeldy, and we will continue to progress that.  We can speak later to research but the treatment of rare diseases is increasingly recognised internationally as a core health policy. The World Health Assembly adopted its first ever resolution on rare diseases in 2025. Ireland is supportive of that. We need a much stronger European environment drawing together all of the different aspects of the EU health and life sciences plan. This can help us get drugs to people who need it.  I started with people and I want to end with people. All of my officials and all of the people in the HSE are just people as well, cognisant of the impact of the decisions, access and speed at which we work on the lives of people with rare diseases. We are here to do everything we can to try to maintain our science- and sustainability-based system and to deliver for the people whom we know need the help we can try to get them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig O'Sullivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-O'Sullivan.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-O'Sullivan.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy P\u00e1draig O'Sullivan)  I now call Deputy Cullinane. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Cullinane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy David Cullinane  I want to start by commending the Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach and the role he has played in campaigning for better supports for patients with rare diseases.  Rare diseases affect more people than many realise. A rare disease is defined broadly as a life-long or life-threatening condition affecting no more than one in 2,000 people, which essentially means a condition that affects no more than 3,500 people on our island. Taken individually, these conditions are rare. Taken together, they affect one in 20 people across Ireland. This means hundreds of thousands of people, parents, children, carers and families whose lives are shaped by conditions that too often the health service is not properly equipped to understand, diagnose, treat or support. For those families, rare disease is not an abstract policy area; it is daily life. The shortcomings and successes of the health service and medical research define their lived experience.  This too often manifests as a long wait for a diagnosis, if one ever comes; long distance travel across the country and abroad to find a suitable expert; and fighting for access to scans, therapies, medicines, educational supports, home supports, disability services, mental health supports and, at times, medical cards. Parents and families become case managers, counsellors, researchers, advocates and campaigners because the State has not put the right supports in place for these communities. People living with rare diseases face that on top of the same capacity problems, waiting lists and delays in physical and mental health services that we know exist right across the board.  The publication of the rare disease strategy was, therefore, a very important and welcome step. It is a long overdue strategy and is essential for realising earlier diagnosis, care co-ordination, registries, research, access to medicines and harnessing the capacity of the health service and medical research to improve lives. The test will be in the implementation and delivery of measurable progress. A second test will be whether the HSE and the health and social care trusts in the North can genuinely come together to maximise access to care and expertise, given that we are talking about very small groups of patients who will be better served if we optimise services through all-island delivery.  Awareness is the first challenge. Rare disease patients are too often met by a system that has no or limited knowledge of their conditions, where to refer them or how to support them. This means that symptoms can be missed, referrals delayed and families left scrambling for answers. Earlier diagnosis will require better awareness across primary care, emergency care, paediatrics, adult services and community services. It also requires investment in genetics and genomics, which the Minster mentioned, genetic counselling, laboratory capacity, data systems and specialist workforce planning. We cannot promise earlier diagnosis without building the capacity to deliver it.  Care networks are just as important. Patients should not have to rely on luck, personal advocacy or overseas contacts to access expertise. Care pathways must be strengthened. We need proper clinical links, referral routes, shared learning and all-island co-operation to maximise the capacity and expertise shared across our health services for these very small groups of patients. For some very rare conditions, the number of patients is so small that collaboration across Ireland, across Europe and between specialist centres is essential. Complex rare disease cases should have accessible key workers who can manage them.  The time and emotional burden of a rare disease is enormous. Families should not be left to manage it all by themselves and to co-ordinate appointments, therapies, medicines, travel, disability supports, social protection supports, school supports and home care on their own.  I want to talk about access to medicines for rare diseases because it is an area that needs to be reformed. The Minister mentioned givinostat and Skyclarys. Delays in this area have an impact on patients. I think we all accept there must be a process to protect the taxpayer and secure value for money and, of course, the independence of it and the scientific underpinning but the current reimbursement process is not designed properly for rare diseases. Applying the same cost-effectiveness model used for common medicines creates predictable delays and unfair outcomes because that system is not suitable for assessing orphan drugs. It is not good enough to tell people with rare diseases that they are too expensive to help. Ireland needs a dedicated, timebound reform of the rare disease medicines pathway. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"R\u00e9ada Cronin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy R\u00e9ada Cronin  I welcome the opportunity to speak about rare diseases today. One of my constituents has a rare disease and is a great advocate. Today, I wish to speak about a condition that affects thousands of people across Ireland, yet remains widely misunderstood and too often invisible, and that is neurofibromatosis, NF.  Neurofibromatosis is classified as a rare disease. It is a genetic disorder that causes tumours to grow on nerves anywhere on the body. These tumours are usually benign but their impact is anything but. This can lead to chronic pain, disfigurement, hearing and vision loss, mobility issues, learning difficulties and, in some cases, life-threatening complications. As NF varies so wildly from person to person, no two journeys look the same. Despite the seriousness of this condition, neurofibromatosis remains under-recognised and under-resourced within our health service.  For those with the condition, one of the biggest obstacles to care is delayed diagnosis, and many families spend years trying to obtain that diagnosis. If they do eventually get it, access to specialist care is extremely limited. An early diagnosis is essential for issues such as medical management, psychological care and educational supports. Of equal concern is that there is no neurofibromatosis centre in Ireland, meaning patients rely on fragmented services spread across multiple hospitals and healthcare settings. Children may receive good paediatric support but once they turn 18, they face many difficulties in accessing the care they need. Adults with NF struggle to access neurologists, psychologists and pain and other specialists who understand their condition.  Over the years, I have submitted many questions in regard to all these areas and I hope the Minister will continue to work with me on this issue so we can provide better services for those who are affected. I had two children in with me on work experience last year, Paul and Charlotte, twins who both suffer from NF. They were a joy to have in the office for the few days. Their two younger siblings, Rafael and Roman-Jean, also have NF, as does their mam, Gillian. Gillian lives in Maynooth and she really is a great advocate in campaigning to get a neurofibromatosis centre in Ireland.  We talked about orphan drugs. I often feel very sorry for the man who goes out on \"Prime Time\" to explain why they cannot cover this drug or the delay, particularly when drug companies make so much money. When you think about the people and the scientists who work in those laboratories, they are not doing it for the money; they are doing it for the recognition and because there is a drive in them. It is really important that we financially support the research into this. Maybe it is for legacy that they want to do it but they do want our interest. The motivation is not always money but they do need the support. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Natasha Newsome Drennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan  I strongly welcome this debate on rare diseases. Only last week, I had the privilege of welcoming young adults living with Friedreich's ataxia, FA, to Leinster House. Tragically, they are waiting and watching their conditions deteriorate rapidly, not due to the lack of medical progress but due to what I can only call administrative neglect by the HSE. Skyclarys is a breakthrough drug for those over 16 with FA. It is widely used across European public health systems, yet it remains out of reach here. These families have now endured nearly 700 days of anguish waiting for the HSE to decide on the reimbursement.  The paperwork was submitted ahead of the deadline for the last meeting. The families have proof but the HSE's response was that while it was submitted on time, it was not opened until after the deadline, and it was, therefore, excluded. What kind of underhand carry-on is this? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill  That is just not true. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Natasha Newsome Drennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan  Can the HSE simply shut its eyes and pretend it saw nothing? Then we had the Taoiseach stand up here last week and give a different date, adding insult to injury for families already at breaking point. There is no accountability on that side of the House.  I have spoken to Emily's family throughout this week. They are devastated. Once again, they have been kicked in the teeth and kicked to the back of the queue. As a mother of four young lads, I find it crippling to see what these parents endure watching their children's health decline while the HSE drags its feet. No parent should have to fight this hard for their child's treatment.  Just this week, they got more bad news. The specialist clinic recommended annual visits but, due to resource shortages, it only sees the patients every 18 months. This has now been pushed from August to October. Friedreich's ataxia places immense strain on the heart. Emily's cardiac check-up is now delayed far beyond clinical recommendations. That is simply not acceptable. We need adequate resources for these combined ataxia clinics immediately and we need the Taoiseach to correct the D\u00e1il record on what he said last week and acknowledge the profound hurt he has caused those with FA and their families. They deserve better. They deserve action and they deserve it now.  When is the next HSE drug group meeting and will they be included on it? If Skyclarys cannot be introduced fast enough, can there be an interim access where they can get it, whether it is through Europe or if there is another way? Every minute, as the Minister knows, it is debilitating for them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Deputy Ward might indulge me for a moment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mark Ward  Go ahead, a Cheann Comhairle. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  The tours are on, and I wish to welcome the members of Rosslare Harbour Women's Shed who have come to visit us today and are in the Gallery. They are most welcome. I call Deputy Mark Ward. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mark Ward  I welcome the women's shed here as well. My family now lives in Wexford as well. My father is in the men's shed in Gorey and he loves it down there. Thank you, a Cheann Comhairle.  I am delighted to have the opportunity to talk about rare diseases. I have been contacted by many residents in my area about Duchenne muscular dystrophy. As the Minister knows, Duchenne muscular dystrophy is a severe, progressive genetic disorder that weakens muscles and affects around 100 children in Ireland. Two of those children are in my area. They are brothers Conor and Dean from Lucan. They are nine and ten years of age. I met with their parents, Karen and Jamie, as they fought to secure life-saving treatment for their two beautiful boys. They were campaigning for their boys to have access to the drug givinostat. Givinostat is not available for Duchenne muscular dystrophy in the Republic of Ireland despite being available across the North. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill  It is available, since yesterday. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mark Ward  I was at a recent briefing in Leinster House and listened to families affected by Duchenne muscular dystrophy. I cannot say there was one person who left that briefing, across the parties, who was not affected listening to the real-life stories of these families' struggles in trying to get this lifesaving drug. I thank every person who contacted, rang or emailed me or called to my constituency offices in relation to this. There has been progress and I welcome the Minister's comments in relation to the progress. I accept the struggles she had with other jurisdictions in trying to get this across the board so that is to be welcomed as well.  While it is welcome, we still have a bit to go. What I would like to see happening is that the next step in this process is not delayed. In fact, I would like to see the next step in this process prioritised so that the drug givinostat gets to the children who need it. Families should not have to watch their children lose abilities while waiting for access to treatment that already exists. Lost abilities cannot be recovered.  As we heard directly from parents, \"time is muscle\". They are some of the most poignant three words I have ever heard in any briefing from anybody - \"time is muscle\". Every day these children are waiting for this life-changing medication, their children's muscles are literally wasting away.  Parents and campaigners also want to see equal access to the drug for Duchenne muscular dystrophy. Campaigners want to see that the eligibility criteria for givinostat are aligned with the UK National Institute for Health and Care Excellence, NICE, approach, ensuring access for boys who can walk or stand with or without support.  They are looking for the same criteria that is there so that boys in the South are not disadvantaged over boys in the North and everybody receives equal access to care.  I will finish up on a small point. We are talking about early diagnosis and how it is key for early intervention. I speak as a person who is living with multiple sclerosis. I often say I am not living with multiple sclerosis but multiple sclerosis is living with me - and God love it. However, it took me a long time to get to that place. I know it is not a rare disease and there are about 10,000 people living with multiple sclerosis in Ireland but it took me a long time to get diagnosed. I was waiting to get diagnosed and get the treatment I needed. The treatment provided by the HSE is absolutely brilliant. The neurology service in Tallaght is absolutely fantastic. If you can get early intervention for no matter what it is, it makes a big difference. The access to public health nurses in Dublin Mid-West needs to be looked at. There are children who are not getting their full developmental checks and that is something we could look at as well. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy P\u00e1draig Rice  It is welcome that the issue of rare diseases is on the political agenda. It has been neglected for far too long. In a large part, it is thanks to the advocacy of parents and families as well as political allies within the system here. Members of the health committee, including Deputy O'Sullivan and Senator Teresa Costello, have raised this issue consistently. One of the things I find quite difficult as a health spokesperson is the fact we are constantly hearing from families and individuals who have to come to Leinster House and who have to campaign to get access to medication. We are talking about people who are sick, who have deteriorating diseases and who have limited energy. I do not think that energy or time should have to be spent campaigning, advocating and pushing the political system into reform. It is something we need to reflect on and try to achieve change for people, so that families, young people and people with rare diseases can live their lives to the full and not have to spend their time and energy campaigning and advocating for progress on these issues. Any real reform of services and reimbursement processes would be far more beneficial than anything that is said in this House in terms of statements. That is what is crucially important to families.  Last August, the new rare diseases strategy was finally published but it should not have taken seven years for a new strategy to be published. The previous strategy expired in 2018. Such an extensive gap without any guiding services or rare diseases policy is unacceptable and cannot be repeated again. Equally, we cannot afford a repeat of the failure to implement all of the recommendations from the last plan. It is one thing publishing a plan but ensuring it is implemented is something entirely different and the latter should be our focus. We see this across the board. In this State, we have implementation deficit disorder when it comes to many of the State's strategies and plans. Too often, they gather dust on the shelves of Government Departments instead of being implemented in full.  I accept that this time around with rare diseases, an implementation oversight group has been established and that is certainly welcome. We need to see an implementation plan published that will outline the necessary actions required to achieve the strategy's recommendations. That must have timelines and funding commitments. That is crucially important for all of our strategies, in that they are time-bound and within the budget and there are the resources and funding to make sure the actions happen. Otherwise, we will not see progress. The programme for Government committed to publishing a new rare diseases strategy and that has been delivered. However, other commitments remain outstanding. The first is a review of the entire reimbursement process. A year and a half into the Government's term, that work is just beginning. I understand the tender details were only approved at the beginning of this month. We were told that this review, once commenced, would take about six months but given past performance, there are serious question marks on the timeline. Mazars, which carried out the previous reimbursement process review, was tasked with that job in 2019 but it was 2023 - four years later - before the long overdue report was published.  Rare Diseases Ireland has raised concerns about the next review, given how little change the last review brought about. I can completely understand these concerns. Rare disease patients have already waited long enough and many do not have the luxury of time. More immediate action is required - not more delays. The current reimbursement process is failing patients, in particular patients with rare diseases. They should not have to campaign tirelessly to progress decisions on orphan drugs or need to lobby Government and Opposition to reform the reimbursement process. This is a heavy burden which the rare disease community should not have to carry. Take for, example, the children who have Duchenne muscular dystrophy. Last week, they finally received the good news that the HSE drug group recommended givinostat for reimbursement but they have had to campaign tirelessly and fight to get to that stage, all the while watching the symptoms progress. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill  That is just not true. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy P\u00e1draig Rice  If I picked the Minister up right, I understand the HSE leadership has signed off on that. We want to know when drugs will be in the hands of patients. For those boys, every day without treatment means further loss of muscle functions. Some boys who were able to walk a year ago have since lost that ability. It is heartbreaking for parents to watch as their children's symptoms progress, losing their independence and mobility, especially when effective medications exist. It is also crucial that the eligibility criteria for givinostat mirrors that of the North. Across the Border, treatment is available to boys who can walk and stand with or without support. The same must apply in this jurisdiction.  At the same time, people living with Freidrich's ataxia, FA, are still waiting for a decision on Skyclarys. This is the first and only treatment for around 200 people in Ireland living with this progressive and life shortening disease. It is those living with rare diseases and their loved ones who are forced to fight for access to treatment. Skyclarys has been shown to markedly improve neurological function in those with FA and they are still waiting for access. Their illness is not waiting; it is progressing every day. I understand an application for Skyclarys was submitted in August 2024, which is almost two years ago. What happened to the 180 day timeline for decisions? That obligation on the HSE is set down in legislation and yet, it is rarely met.  I have been pursuing progress on the application for quite some time and have been repeatedly been told by the Minister that the HSE cannot comment on negotiations with pharmaceutical companies. I accept this but I do not accept the delays and the process is the problem. That is what we need to look at. We now know the HSE received a commercial proposal on 27 May and are waiting for the HSE drug group to make a recommendation. This must be prioritised and should be on the agenda for the HSE drug group meeting. That meeting should be scheduled without delay. The prospect of further delays cannot be countenanced and for people with FA, every delay means abilities lost and independence reduced.  This is not just about some rare disease conditions or some treatments. We need to improve the system for everybody who has a rare disease. Otherwise, the same issues and delays will continue to occur. It is entirely predictable. We should not be putting any more patients with rare diseases and their loved ones through this. We need a system that works and this is particularly important when it comes to orphan drugs. We are still waiting for real progress on the programme for Government's commitment and the rare diseases strategy recommendations on an early access scheme for new medications for rare diseases. Ireland is an outlier in Europe for not having an early access scheme place. Yet, our Government has only just begun looking at this with a pilot initiative in development.  Where is the sense of urgency? People with rare diseases need action now and, more importantly, greater access to innovative new medicines, like their counterparts across Europe. Without a specific system for orphan drugs, people with rare diseases will continue to have to protest outside the gates of Leinster House and tell their stories over and over again. This should not be necessary. People with rare diseases have enough to contend with without the emotional and physical toll of consistently having to fight for treatments and reforms of the system.  I welcome the news on European co-operation on these issues and the opportunities with the European Presidency to have greater co-operation across Europe on this. I would also like to briefly speak about the newborn screening programme, which was recently extended to include severe combined immunodeficiency, SCID and spinal muscular atrophy, SMA. This expansion of the programme was approved by the previous Minister for Health, Stephen Donnelly, in 2023 and yet, it took three years to implement. This is despite the fact that funding was approved in 2024 to operationalise these additions. The previous Minister had said it will be rolled out by the end of 2024. That is simply not good enough. Additions to the newborn screening programme must be prioritised. This is made very clear in the rare disease strategy. The primary focus of the screening programme is to identify babies with rare conditions and improve outcomes. Early intervention can prevent the onset of disease symptoms or delay disease progression, improving the quality of life of newborns. According to the rare disease strategy, screening can be used for up to 50 rare diseases but Ireland still only screens for 11 conditions.  While I accept there is considerable variation across Europe, Ireland lags behind the European average of screening for 18 conditions. As of last year, Italy was top of the pack by screening for 48 conditions. That was followed by Austria screening for 31 conditions and Portugal screening for 30. Clearly, Ireland has some distance to go if it wants to be a leader in this area and that should be our aim. I understand that HIQA is currently examining the potential addition of congenital adrenal hyperplasia, CAH, and a further three conditions will be considered following that. It is welcome that we are now seeing movement in this area. However, we cannot allow another three year window between announcement and rollout if these conditions are approved.  I draw the Minister's attention to a survey conducted by Rare Disease Ireland earlier this year. In it, 60% of respondents were found to be pessimistic about the potential impact of the rare disease strategy to improve lives. That should give the Minister pause for thought. Almost a year on from publication, one thing is sure; it has not been a great start. People with rare diseases are continuing to be left behind by the system and this cannot go on. The second year of this strategy must deliver real change. People with rare diseases cannot wait any longer.  As I was saying at the start, we find ourselves in the House making statements on the important issues,but not progressing on the reforms that are so badly needed. We should focus our time, energy and efforts in this Parliament on actually achieving change. I welcome the acceleration of legislation from the Department of Health. We got the legislation yesterday. However, we need to see more of that, more legislative reform across the board in the area of heath, and to see real change. That is what makes a big difference for people and families. It is not speeches in the D\u00e1il that change lives for people; it is the work of real reform, improving services, improving access to drugs and changing legislation that has the real impact on people's lives. If we are going to have a Parliament that works better, that should be our priority. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  I thank Deputy Rice. Before I call the next Member, I wish to welcome, from my own village of Ramsgrange, the group Blokes With Cameras. They have had a few women join them today and they are all most welcome. I now call Deputy P\u00e1draig O'Sullivan. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig O'Sullivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-O'Sullivan.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-O'Sullivan.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy P\u00e1draig O'Sullivan  I think it was five weeks ago the T\u00e1naiste suggested we do these statements and I commend him for that. I thank the Minister for being here. We have had many a discussion over the 18 months since the Minister was appointed. I wish to start by commending her. She has showed an awful lot of interest in this area since she has taken up office; far more, than many of her predecessors of the ten or 15 years prior, I might add. I commend her for that. The news of the review was kind of lost last week with the whole reimbursement or the positive recommendation of givinostat, which was obviously very welcome. It is not fully there but it is a positive recommendation nonetheless. What got lost in that was that the Minister had started this end-to-end review. This was a programme for Government commitment, as she alluded to in her speech and it is something that I and colleagues in my party have long asked for. We chased, harassed and harried our previous colleague, Stephen Donnelly, in relation to such a review and could not get it over the line. I genuinely give the Minister honest praise for that. It is appreciated by the families concerned at the centre of these campaigns.  I do not want to repeat a lot of what was said. We all have constituency clinics and meet patient groups and people who have these rare diseases. They rank amongst the hardest stories I have listened to in my seven years up here. Many people will be familiar with Friedreich's ataxia, which I know the Minister obviously cannot speak about today in any great detail. The heartbreaking stories of those families and individuals such as Craig Coady and Emily Felix have been referenced here, as have those of many people we have brought into the House. What those people have to go through is dehumanising in a way. They have not had the best luck in the world with the disease they were diagnosed with, and to compound that further we have a system that unfortunately nearly encourages them to go on \"Prime Time\", \"The Claire Byrne Show\" and come in here and bare their souls to us and to the nation. To me that is fundamentally wrong, but, nonetheless, they felt they had to do it.  I am heartened in the last few weeks with the progress on givinostat, as I have said. I am not the most religious person in the world but I am saying prayers every night before I go to bed in relation to the Skyclarys drug, which, despite what was said earlier, will be at the next drugs group meeting in July. There is also an attempt to bring that meeting forward. It is incredibly difficult.  I am encouraged by the Minister's words on this review when she stated that:  The aim of this work is clear: to identify where delays arise, where processes can be streamlined, and how we can ensure that decisions are made as efficiently and transparently as possible, while maintaining the necessary rigorous clinical and value assessments.  That is fine. That is good. We have already had the transparency piece answered by Mazars. Mazars was a bit of a letdown for me and for many other people involved in the campaigns over the years. It solely and exclusively dealt with transparency. It has achieved an awful lot in that regard, but the challenge is around the process. Back in 2021, I published a Bill which would provide a separate pathway, like other people have referenced here. I do not think any system - I referenced this when I was on \"The Claire Byrne Show\" recently - that assesses a cough syrup or a medicine for migraines should be the same one that is used for these high-tech drugs. It makes no sense. The implementation of a quality threshold per quality-adjusted life-year added is \u20ac45,000. We know these drugs are going to cost in excess of that. Again, adherence to that in the assessment needs to be reviewed. I will not give the Minister a lecture about it because the review will be the review and she will have all the professionals in the country feeding into it. I do hope it differs from Mazars and that it provides a meaningful review and not something tokenistic. Mazars was the provision of an online transparency tracker and that was kind of it. If it is tokenistic like that, then unfortunately it will not have my support. However, I am optimistic because the Minister has approached this in a very forthright manner and, as such, I hope this will be a fruitful review.  I get very frustrated listening to people from within the Department of Health appearing on radio and TV justifying delays. As the Minister rightfully said, in the case of givinostat, she was able to knock heads together, reduce timelines and get people around the table. That did cut some of the waiting times in comparison with other medicines. The biggest delay in the system is the health technology assessment, HTA, and the negotiation piece, and there is nothing to stop us having that negotiation piece while people are accessing medicines. That can happen retrospectively and that also needs to be looked at as part of any review. It happens in other countries. There is also the possibility of burden-sharing and risk-sharing with drugs. Again, I hope that will feed into the review. Many other countries do it. If a drug is effective, then a company can get reimbursed. If a drug is provided and it is not effective, the company gets a reduced amount or does not get reimbursed at all. Schemes like that need to be looked at because the fundamental thing here is to try to get medicines to people as quickly as possible. However, my concern is that the argument of the rare disease drugs and the new cancer drugs is getting lost in that \u20ac4 billion. The new drugs budget typically ranges from between \u20ac20 million and \u20ac50 million per annum over the last few years. I am saying it and nobody has contradicted me. If the Minister has evidence to the contrary, I would like to see it or hear it. That represents less than 1% of the total drugs budget and for me that is not a meaningful apportionment of the existing drugs funding that is there. If clarity could be brought to me on that, I would appreciate it.  I wish to speak about the delays. Yes, the HSE is to blame for some of the delays. Probably more often, drug manufacturers are to blame. That needs to be acknowledged. It also needs to be acknowledged that many manufacturers do not want to come here not just because it is a small market but because they know they are going to feed into a system that will, as was alluded to earlier, take between five and 800 days in going through a HTA predominantly and a reimbursement process that is not fit for purpose. I do not blame them if they go to Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia. We are not talking here about France, Italy and big countries. We understand why manufacturers go to those bigger markets, but there are other smaller countries across Europe which have a higher proportion of reimbursed drugs than we do. That is a fact. The number increased recently. I acknowledge that we have reimbursed the bones of 50 drugs, give or take, over the last three years, which was a dramatic increase on the previous decade. However, it must also be said that only 30% of all EMA-approved drugs in Europe are available here, compared with an EU average of 45% or thereabouts. Even on that 15%, if we could just get ourselves on a par with our European counterparts we would be setting the bar quite high. I would like to see that happen.  The reason I became involved in rare diseases six years ago is that I met a constituent and supporter of mine who was diagnosed with a disease called amyloidosis. It was a very rare genetic disease that predominately affected people in Donegal. This poor man below in Cork, due to his genetic history, was unfortunately diagnosed with it. That is how I became involved with it. We lobbied for a drug called patisiran at the time and we were successful in that. However, as I said at the start, I think it is dehumanising, whether it is amyloidosis, Friedreich's ataxia or Duchenne muscular dystrophy.  It is dehumanising that we put people on that platform. I call it Groundhog Day. As I said to the Minister's colleague Deputy Aird when he first approached me about a constituent of his, this is just going to be repeated. All of the eggs are in the basket of this review. When this review is done, it will probably be the last attempt at a review for the next five or ten years. I really do hope it is meaningful and thorough.  I will leave it on a positive note. I complimented the Minister at the start. She has gone above and beyond. She has met people privately in a personal capacity. She has met the families who are at the core of it. She said that the whole thing here is to provide hope. I know she has children. I also have children. Most people in this Chamber today have children. I always put myself in the position of their parents when they are fighting for these medicines and treatments. We would do anything for our children. Everybody in here would. We cannot blame the parents who are involved in these campaigns for doing the same. All the eggs are in the basket of this review. I hope there will be a positive outcome in the next six to nine months that gives people real hope. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Thomas Gould  I have spoken to the Minister about Paudie Coady. He is 16 years old and has been diagnosed with Friedreich's ataxia. His brother passed away from the same condition last year. It is a terminal condition. It is unbelievable that his father, Craig, has buried one son, has another son who is dying and that his wife is now in care because she has Huntington's disease. I cannot even get my mind around the tragedy facing this family. I know why Craig gets up every day. He gets up every day because he wants to do his very best for Paudie and for his wife.  There is now a drug that can reduce Paudie's symptoms, give him a longer life and improve his quality of life. I have spoken to the Minister and to the Taoiseach and other people have raised this issue in here in respect of different people. Paudie can walk for about ten minutes. He can go to school and can just about go on a holiday. He can do a few things. He is looking at his friends growing into big strong men while he declines. Paudie should be given access to the drug Skyclarys under the compassionate access programme. We know this drug would have a huge positive effect on Paudie's quality of life. I know the Minister is a compassionate woman. She is a compassionate Minister. We need to make this drug available to Paudie on an exceptional basis. The Minister has the power to do this. It has happened in other European countries. Will the Minister talk to the Department about approving the drug under the compassionate access programme to give Paudie a longer life and a better quality of life? I know we are all going to die but this child is going to die and there is a drug that could really help.  I spoke to Craig, Paudie's father, a while ago. He feels that those in the Government who have met with him have been genuinely sympathetic and supportive. I do not want to dismiss that here. I do not want to make politics of this. However, at the end of the day, the Minister has this ability under the compassionate access programme. No family or child should be denied hope because of money issues. I sincerely ask the Minister to consider this. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill  It is important to say that I do not have that power. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  The Minister says that she does not have that power. She can address the issue later. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Thomas Gould  The power is there. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Duncan Smith","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Duncan-Smith.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Duncan-Smith.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Duncan Smith  I welcome this opportunity to speak on rare diseases. I spoke on the issue in the previous D\u00e1il. I do not think I have spoken about it in the current D\u00e1il. It has been said many times that, although rare diseases are classified as rare, we all probably know somebody who has one because one in 17 people in the country, a total of 300,000 people, have a rare disease. It is a very difficult issue to talk about. The system to approve medicines in this country has been poor. It has resulted in medicines that are available to sufferers of rare diseases under the public system in other countries, including some medicines I will discuss in a few moments and that others have already mentioned, taking longer to get to the people who need them in Ireland. I know the Minister and her predecessor have worked to change that. We need to make progress to expedite the system and to ensure that we get the best drugs in the world into treatment programmes for people in this country who have rare diseases.  I take this opportunity praise the families of those children living with Duchenne muscular dystrophy. Their tenacity in fighting for their children is unbelievably admirable and we are glad to have met so many of them in recent years. I acknowledge the work of Senator Teresa Costello and my colleague Deputy P\u00e1draig O'Sullivan, who has been steadfast in his work and advocacy for sufferers during all his time in the D\u00e1il. I will also mention the former TD, Denis Naughten, who did a great deal of work over many years. I am so glad for those children living with DMD that the HSE drugs group has recommended reimbursement. It is now imperative that those children get access to this drug as soon as is practicable.  At the core of this fight was the sheer length of time it took for this medicine to be considered and to go through the assessment process for reimbursement following EMA approval. I am sure that all of us in this House, including the Minister, agree that the process needs to be reformed. Our health spokesperson, Deputy Marie Sherlock, wrote to the Minister more than a year ago about access to this medicine. While it might have been given approval faster than other medicines, it was still too slow, taking far beyond 180 days. This is especially so as it had been made clear that these children simply did not have time on their side. As a result, some young people living with DMD will unfortunately not be able to benefit from this very welcome decision. It would be good to hear from the Minister and the HSE senior leadership team as when the drug will be formally approved - that may have been done; I am not sure of the timelines - and when these families can expect this medicine.  I will raise, as others have, Skyclarys and the treatment of Friedreich's ataxia, a rare neurodegenerative disorder that progresses very quickly, resulting in neurological decline, the loss of bodily function, mobility and independence, and ultimately death. Approximately 200 people in Ireland have Friedreich's ataxia. I know the Minister met some of them earlier this year. Skyclarys is the only approved treatment for this condition. It was approved by the EMA in February 2024 and is available in many states across the EU. As yet, it is not publicly available in Ireland. An application was lodged here in August 2024. A constituent of my colleague Deputy Sherlock has told us that she and others are losing hope. People she knows have lost the ability to stand upright, to walk, to feed and dress themselves and to speak clearly. Just like those children with DMD, time is not on the side of those with Friedreich's ataxia. This person has said:  I am not asking for special treatment - just the fair treatment that patients in Germany, Italy, and many other European countries already receive. Please help to ensure that the \"National Rare Disease Strategy\" becomes a reality for those of us who cannot afford to wait any longer and, by doing so, provide access to this life-changing treatment.  The HSE drugs group needs to consider this medicine with the utmost urgency.  The reality that Irish patients cannot access many novel and innovative medicines that other citizens across the EU can is a let-down coming into our EU Presidency. We believe the EU Presidency presents a clear opportunity for the Minister and for Ireland with regard to the procurement of medicines, particularly orphan and innovative medicines. During the Covid pandemic, the EU proved how effective the collective procurement of treatments can be through its procurement of Covid vaccines. We must work to create a similar process for the procurement of medicines, particularly rare medicines, which can be costly for states with smaller populations to procure.  It has been well flagged to the Minister and to many of us here that the value-for-money or quality-adjusted life-year assessment needs to be looked at given the small number of patients with rare diseases, where there are treatments. Many innovative medicines struggle to meet this threshold. This needs to change. I welcome the recent announcement of a review into the reimbursement process. I hope this will consider my point regarding the quality-adjusted life-year assessment.  Rare disease patients can wait up to 722 days for decisions to be made on orphan medicines. This is far above the European average. I welcome the plan to a more structured approach of achieving a 180-day reimbursement decision. As the Marie Keating Foundation has stated, we must make the 180-day timeline a dependable standard as opposed to an aspiration. Ireland is now the only country in western Europe without a formal early access programme. We need to see the consideration and introduction of a compassionate early access programme. This is about recognising that for rare diseases, time is often not on the side of those with such diseases. In some cases, the earlier a medication is started, the more effective it can be in slowing illness progression down. The Minister has stated that she is working on this. We will support her in that regard.  While prostate cancer is certainly not a rare disease, I want to raise once again issues with accessing innovative medicines, which is certainly an issue that also relates to rare diseases. It comes down to access. It is the case that access to private medical treatment here can, in turn, grant access to medicines that one cannot get in the public system. The Minister will agree that this is utterly unfair. We accept the need for value for money, but we must demand equitable access to treatments. I reference Pluvicto, which is a medicine to treat men with metastasized prostate cancer. This is a matter I have previously raised with the Minister. The drug is not reimbursed by the HSE, yet a patient in, for example, the Mater Private Hospital can get access to it. The inequity is unacceptable. I ask that the Minister might at some stage provide an update on the HSE's engagement with the manufacturer in relation to this medicine.  In the context of other issues that we raise in the D\u00e1il, we sometimes can get a sense that a Minister or the Government do not quite get the issue or understand it. I do not think that is the case with rare diseases. The Minister and the Government understand the issue and the difficulties relating to it and are aware of what needs to be done. She will have our support if we are moving in the right direction. I hope that we do so. I hope that we can get the 180 days. I hope that people, especially children, with rare disease can get access to various novel medications that have been approved elsewhere as soon as possible. I hope that we do not have to have statements on rare diseases too often and that we can move forward. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Colm Burke  Fourteen years ago in June 2012, the first meeting was held with the then Minister for Health, James Reilly, in Farmleigh House, when a whole lot of people involved in the area of rare diseases, including parents and different lobby groups, were brought together. That was the first that a serious effort was made to get everyone together in order to see how we could plan forward to deal with the many rare diseases that are there.  Rare diseases may be individually uncommon but, together, they affect 300,000 people and their families across Ireland. Behind every diagnosis is a child, parent, carer or an adult who is living with a condition that often requires specialist treatment, ongoing support and access to innovative medicines. The publication of Ireland's National Rare Disease Strategy 2025-2030 was an important step forward. The strategy provides a roadmap for more integrated person-centred care and recognises the unique challenges faced by those living with rare diseases. However, for many families, progress on paper has yet to translate into improvements in daily life. Recent findings from Rare Diseases Ireland are concerning. Four in ten respondents reported poor access to healthcare services. More than 40% rated their physical health as poor, while over one third reported poor mental well-being. Nearly four in ten families described their financial situation as poor due to medical costs, travel expenses and reduced income arising from their condition. More strikingly, only a small minority expressed optimism that the new strategy will improve their quality of life.  One area requiring urgent attention is access to orphan medicines. Currently, patients in Ireland wait, on average, more than 800 days between a medicine receiving market authorisation and becoming available to patients. This places Ireland among the poorest performers in the European Union and well behind the EU average. In 2018, I was involved in the health committee as regards producing a report on how we could speed up access to medicines. That report that has not been acted on. It is disappointing that some of the proposals set out in the report have not been followed through on. We must continue efforts to improve assessment processes, pricing negotiations and reimbursement pathways in order that effective treatments can reach patients more quickly. However, while these reforms are being pursued, we cannot ignore the immediate pressures facing families today.  The National Rare Disease Strategy 2025-2030 rightly recognises that the costs associated with rare disease diagnosis should be considered in medical card assessments. It also highlights the need for integrated care pathways, co-ordinated community supports, special services, respite care, psychological supports and smoother transitions from childhood to adult healthcare. These commitments must now be implemented with urgency. Families should not have to wait years for access to treatment while also struggling with financial hardship, travel costs and fragmented services. Our responsibility is not only to improve access to orphan medicines but also to ensure that every person living with a rare disease receives the support they need to live with dignity and security. The strategy provides the framework; we must now deliver on the action.  Going back to 2012, I was one of the only Oireachtas Members at the event in Farmleigh House. While a lot of progress has been made in 14 years, we need to expedite that progress in the next three to four years. We have medication in a lot of cases, but what is needed is access. It is important that we improve the process for making sure that the medication is available in a timely matter. I ask the Minister and the Department give priority to that matter. A lot of progress has been made. We need to make a lot more, but in a shorter timeframe. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Erin McGreehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Erin McGreehan  I very much welcome the opportunity to speak on rare diseases. An estimated 300,000 people in Ireland are living with rare diseases. For their families, the challenges are absolutely immense. Too many face long waits for diagnosis, fragmented care and difficulties accessing treatments that could significantly improve or extend their lives. While each rare disease may affect a small number of people, collectively, rare diseases affect one in 17 people in this country. This is not a niche issue; it is a national issue. The Oireachtas and the Government need to work together to make sure that there is a national response.  I welcome the National Rare Disease Strategy 2025-2030 and the commitment to improving diagnosis, care, research and access to medicines. Strategies alone do not change lives, however. Patients need to see real and tangible improvements.  One of the greatest frustrations for patients is that scientific advances are moving faster than our ability to deliver such advances to the people who need them. Ireland is a global leader in pharmaceutical innovation. We manufacture some of the most advance medicines in the world. We are rightly proud of the jobs this creates, the investment it attracts and the contribution the sector makes to our economy. There is a desperate contradiction at the heart of our system that we cannot continue to ignore. The medicines are developed here. The innovations happen here. Our researchers, scientists and healthcare professionals are helping to drive breakthroughs that are changing lives across the world. Our economy benefits enormously from that innovation. Too often, however, Irish patients are upon the last to benefit. We have seen this recently in the context of heartbreaking battles to get people care and treatment. The drugs highlighted in the media recently are givinostat and Skyclarys. I congratulate my colleagues Deputy P\u00e1draig O'Sullivan and Senator Teresa Costello on the strong and diligent work that they have done in relation to these two drugs. Thankfully, givinostat has been approved but people with Friedreich's ataxia are waiting for Skyclarys to be approved.  This inequity is to be found across the entire healthcare sector, including in the areas of rare diseases and cancer. We have effectively developed a two-tier system where access to innovative medicines can depend on whether a person has private health insurance or on their ability to pay. Patients who are treated privately can often access new therapies far sooner than those who rely on the public health service. That is not equity. It is not what Sl\u00e1intecare promised. It is not what the Irish healthcare system should be. Healthcare should be based on need rather than income. The chance of accessing a life-changing treatment for cancer, for example, or, indeed, a rare disease should never depend on a person's financial circumstances.  That is why an early access programme for innovative medicines is essential. Patients with rare diseases and cancer should not have to wait for years to access treatments that have already demonstrated significant benefit elsewhere. We also need a greater and more sustainable budget for new and innovative medicines. Investment in these therapies is not simply a cost, it is an investment in better outcomes, longer lives and better quality of life. We must strengthen our commitment to clinical trials and research. I met Cancer Trials Ireland recently and heard how clinical trials are not only improving patient outcomes but also saving the State millions. They provide patients with access to cutting-edge treatment and help to build a stronger and more innovative health service. For patients living with rare diseases and cancer, every day matters and every delay is excruciating. Our responsibility is to ensure innovation does not stop at the laboratory door or the factory gate; it must reach the patient. It is a standard our healthcare system should be judged by and the standard our patients deserve. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darren O'Rourke  I welcome the opportunity to speak today. An estimated 300,000 people in Ireland live with a rare disease. Too often, they are faced with years of uncertainty, navigating a fragmented system. This must change. The national rare disease strategy is welcome and provides a framework but it must be properly funded and implemented. It promises integrated life-course care pathways, expanded newborn screening and wraparound supports. To deliver this, the Government must deliver the necessary funding. The development of diagnostic, critical specialist and general multidisciplinary capacity must be a priority. It is still the case that access to life-changing drugs is far too slow. Government must deliver on its own commitments in the programme for Government. I welcome the Minister's commitment to a review and the additional capacity in the system. A tracking system was committed to which must be delivered on. Importantly, there is a commitment in the programme for Government to try to ensure early access. Government must ensure early access happens. I acknowledge the pilot but while pilots are something, they are by their very nature exclusive. I noted the Minister's comments early on Skyclarys for Friedreich's ataxia. She has to know time is of the essence and every day counts. It is similar for boys with Duchenne muscular dystrophy. I welcome recent developments with respect to accessing givinostat but I implore the Minister and the Government to maintain momentum until every child who would benefit from that drug has access to it. We must also ensure the drugs reimbursement system is fair, transparent, accountable and commands public confidence. That is why I am proud Sinn F\u00e9in Healthcare (Transparent Payments) Bill 2022 which I cosponsored with colleagues will go to Second Stage next week. This Bill is about ensuring integrity in our health service. It will require pharmaceutical companies to declare all payments and transfers of value to healthcare professionals and organisations, ending the current inadequate voluntary system and bringing Ireland in line with international best practice. An estimated 300,000 people are waiting for action. They need timely diagnoses, access to medicines and a system they can trust. We must deliver for them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  I express solidarity with the many people and many children suffering from rare diseases in Ireland. I pay tribute to the many who have to speak out publicly about what they and their families are going through to bring pressure on the Government to approve various medicines, people like Archie Ennis and A.J. Slevin. There are far too many and we should not have to know about their stories. It speaks to something very wrong in how our society, the economy and the pharmaceutical sector are organised. I recently read about research done in France which showed the majority of new medicines developed offer no therapeutic benefit or advancement and about 25% represent real therapeutic advancements. In the vast majority of research, money is going into marketing, research into products with massive markets already and therefore they are just variations on drugs to keep patents ongoing. There is very little in prioritising people's needs and rare diseases. Where there are developments, pharmaceutical companies are holding out to get as much money as they possibly can for them. We need a very different sort of pharmaceutical sector in public ownership in the public interest. I welcome the recommendation of the HSE drug group to approve givinostat for Duchenne muscular dystrophy. I add a request for children like A.J. who will not be of an age to benefit from it - I think you need to be six - that support is given in the meantime - for example, support from the HSE with splints to ensure their muscles do not get weaker while waiting for access. I hope access is granted for whoever needs it as soon possible. On Friedreich's ataxia Skyclarys is the only drug that has been shown to slow the disease. It was approved by the EMA and is available in other European countries. I will quote from a constituent:  The NCPE issued a harsh verdict for Skyclarys on 17 December 2025. While I understand the HSE is still in discussions with the manufacturer, the delay is costing my niece time to slow this cruel disease. It is already heartbreaking watching her fade even though a drug that works exists but is out of reach. In the 570 plus days since the application for its use in Ireland was lodged, many in the community have lost the ability to stand upright, walk, feed or dress themselves and to speak clearly. Many have lost all hope.  Time is ticking. We need urgent movement on Skyclarys and the other orphan drugs that have not been approved in our system. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Roderic O'Gorman  I add to the calls for the availability of treatments for Friedreich's ataxia and Duchenne muscular dystrophy and to recognise the very brave patients and their advocates who have made this case in Leinster House. Skyclarys is the first and only approved treatment for Friedreich's ataxia which around 200 people live with in Ireland. This medication can slow the progression of their condition. The company that makes Skyclarys has put the official pricing proposal to the CPU and now the situation is fully in the hands of the HSE. Patients do not know how long it will take for the HSE to make its final decision. On 26 May, I asked the Minister for Health for a definitive timeline on consideration of Skyclarys for reimbursement. Many patients and their advocates were really upset when it became apparent Skyclarys was not discussed at the 10 June meeting of the HSE's corporate pharmaceutical unit. It is important this process is completed as quickly as possible. I ask the Minister to do all she can to ensure Skyclarys is included on the agenda of the August meeting of the CPU. I would also like to raise the approval of givinostat for people suffering with Duchenne muscular dystrophy. I have raised it as have others on several occasions with the Minister for Health since EMA approval was granted last year. Last week the HSE recommended the drug for approval. This week the SLT signed off on this, bringing children with Duchenne closer to accessing this medication in Ireland. The Minister said the timeline for children getting this medication will depend on supply and the final approval steps. I urge her to use all possible influence to speed up this process so that children who desperately need this medication can avail of it. The approval of this treatment is welcome but it should not have taken this level of concerted lobbying by parents and patients to achieve. The Minister says decisions around pricing are not made by her personally and they are rightly in the hands of experts. That is the right approach but the issue is not with the making of the decision, it is the process, the time it takes and a system that has become overly bureaucratised and needs to be streamlined.  A review of that system is going on at the moment. That review is timely and I hope we get the result quickly. I hope we get the changes that are necessary made to the system of reviewing approvals for these orphan drugs because patients and their families deserve better. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruth Coppinger  I recall in the D\u00e1il about a decade ago when Leo Varadkar was the Minister for Health. He said that he would almost become a socialist when it comes to the issue of the drug companies and the health industry. It did not quite work, obviously. Here we are again asking why it is taking so long for drugs to be approved in this country. These are drugs that we know are having life-saving impacts. We are a small country so, in some ways, a rare disease in a small country is even more difficult. Cystic fibrosis is very common in Ireland, yet that took ages as well.  I echo the calls for the treatments for Friedreich's ataxia and Duchenne muscular dystrophy, DMD, to be approved as quickly as possible. I spoke on that issue a year ago in the D\u00e1il. Families are going through heartbreak. DMD in particular is a progressive disease. I read that givinostat has now been approved. I am asking the Minister of State to ensure that this is moved as quickly as possible so that givinostat benefits as many as possible.  I want to mention a case that was brought to my attention of a young woman, called Debbie, who has been diagnosed with an aggressive brain tumour, a WHO grade 4 glioblastoma. As the House can imagine, she has undergone extensive neurosurgery removing huge parts of her brain, as well as radiotherapy and chemotherapy. The problem is this. There is a revolutionary second-line treatment available called dendritic cell therapy, DCT, available in Germany. It has been overwhelmingly positive in its results in the first few years at trial stage. Debbie has comprehensive health insurance but this therapy is not available on VHI anyway. It should be available to all, of course, but I just cite the fact that insurance companies are not providing insurance cover for many conditions. This results in families having to do GoFundMe to raise money to go abroad, all when people are in such dire health situations. The family in question have done so and have had to raise huge amounts of money. This is treatment inequality.  Cutting-edge treatments like DCT are available in other European countries but are not available in Ireland despite the fact that a lot of the pharmaceuticals in question are manufactured in this country up the road from where I live. There are also health insurance barriers and systemic delays. Even basic administrative requirements such as requesting medical records to go to another country add up with regard to people's life expectancy and quality of life. The system is failing people like Debbie and we need to act to make that treatment available. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Ward.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Barry-Ward.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Ward  The terrible thing about this subject is that it comes down so much to economics and it should not. It should come down to individuals and everything that we can do for them. I want to echo what many speakers have said in this debate about how we need to accelerate the progress in relation to the provision of treatments for rare diseases. The fact that they are rare diseases should not mean that people do not have access to the treatments they need.  I have listened to some of the comments on how we need to have a pharma industry that works for the people. While that is laudable and entirely appropriate, we also have to be mindful that the money spent on research and development comes from private investors, and much of it essentially comes to nothing. The hope is that researchers strike upon some drug or treatment that actually solves a problem and, therefore, is marketable, saleable and profitable. If we had a situation where we were spending public money on research and development for pharma companies, the public would rightly be outraged by the amount of money that was spent on programmes that simply came to nothing in the end. Let us not be naive about this. We need private investment and we need the pharma companies, which are expert at this whereas the State is not, to innovate in this space and develop the very treatments that we are relying on them to create, patent and market to solve problems.  There is, however, a legitimate criticism to be made of certain pharma companies. We have individual markets on drugs throughout the European Union and I understand why that is. Since Ireland is a small market, it is not going to be as profitable for a large multinational pharmaceutical company to make the application to have the drugs included in the payment scheme and all the rest of it in this jurisdiction, because there are fewer people here who are going to consume the drug than in somewhere like France, Germany or Italy. That is a particular shame and it reflects very poorly on the pharmaceutical companies that they do not do this.  Duchenne muscular dystrophy has been mentioned today. It is a case where the application has been made. I raised the issue this morning with the Minister for Health. My understanding was that she was waiting for the application to be made. It has now been made and we hope it will be accelerated. It is a case where time is very much against people who are suffering from Duchenne muscular dystrophy and we need to provide that treatment as soon as possible.  Another example is eosinophilic esophagitis, EoE, which is a chronic, allergic inflammatory disease of the esophagus from which people suffer and that can be treated by a particular drug produced by Sanofi. Some 50% of its global production is in Waterford, yet that drug is not available for treatment of juveniles in this jurisdiction. My understanding of the reason it is not available is quite simply that Sanofi has not made the application. There might be really good reasons for that and if there are, then let us have them out, but my concern is that because Ireland is a smaller market for these drugs, it disincentivises the company from making what is presumably a costlier application from the point of view putting together material than it might be in another country. For dealing with rare diseases in the longer term, perhaps we should be looking at a single European Union market for these things, which would be a single EU authorisation or application market so that we no longer suffered from being the smaller market within the European Union. We could tell drug companies to apply to the European Union and then they would get to run their drugs in Ireland and get to avail of the schemes in Ireland. In that way, we would solve this problem. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy William Aird  I join with other speakers in highlighting the issue of rare diseases. In particular, I want to speak about a condition affecting a small number of people in Ireland, which is SMA, a genetic disorder that affects motor neurons in the spinal cord, leading to progressive muscular weaknesses, loss of function and even shortened life expectancy. For many years, families affected by SMA lived with little hope of effective treatment. Thankfully, however, breakthroughs in research mean that there are therapies available today that can dramatically improve the quality of life for many patients.  Ireland can be proud of the progress that has been made. The State has agreed reimbursement for innovative SMA treatments for children and young people. These decisions have transformed lives, and this is something we should acknowledge and commend. However, there remains a small group of adults with SMA who have been denied treatment because their dates of birth do not comply with the chosen cut-off date. Approximately 16 adults in Ireland with SMA are currently excluded from reimbursement of treatments that are available to younger patients. Through no fault of their own, they miss an opportunity afforded to those who came after them. As a result, we have a situation where two people with the same condition are treated very differently. A patient diagnosed as a child will continue to receive the treatment into adulthood but another adult with the same diagnosis and the same clinical need may be unable to access reimbursement at all. That is unjust and inequitable. It discriminates against this small group of people because of their age. I appreciate fully that decisions on reimbursement must be evidence based, clinically informed and financially responsible but I ask that, alongside the necessary procedures, we apply a degree of joined-up thinking, practicality and humanity. We need to think outside the box for this small group of adults. Their lives could be improved by treatments that are already recognised, licensed and reimbursed elsewhere for others with SMA in this country.  When this group of adults looks to Europe and sees other adults with SMA accessing therapies, and when they look to Northern Ireland and across the Irish Sea where similar patients are receiving treatment, and when they see younger Irish patients benefiting from these medicines, is it any wonder that they feel frustrated, excluded and let down? Rare disease policy requires us to think differently. One size does not fit all. Traditional health technology assessment models are designed around larger patient populations.  Rare diseases do not fit neatly into these frameworks. This is why flexibility and innovation are practically essential. I ask that every effort be made to explore practical solutions for this exceptionally small group of patients through management access arrangements, conditional reimbursement measures, special rare disease pathways and other approaches. There is scope for constructive engagement that balances fiscal responsibility and compassion. Our national rare disease strategy recognises that people living with rare disease face many barriers. These 16 adults are experiencing a unique barrier - their age. I know the Minister is committed to improving outcomes for those living with rare diseases. I know that significant work is underway with the Department----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  The Deputy's time is up. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy William Aird  ----- and I ask that special attention be given to this group----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  The Deputy is eating into other Members' time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy William Aird  -----and that the Minister engages further with EMA Ireland. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail  First, I want to pay tribute to the parents and families of young boys with Duchenne muscular dystrophy who have campaigned for access to givinostat. I commend them for their work, and I also acknowledge the work of colleagues in this House, such as Senators Teresa Costello and Anne Rabbitte, and Deputy P\u00e1draig O'Sullivan, for their work in driving this from a parliamentary perspective. I also acknowledge the Taoiseach and the Minister for Health for their engagement as well.  Many people in the House today have already spoken about the positive news that we got regarding givinostat. However, we are still waiting for that good news when it comes to skyclarys in relation to Friedreich's ataxia. This something that the Government and the HSE must prioritise, particularly its corporate pharmaceutical unit because, as other Deputies have said, time is something that these families do not have in abundance, and we need to ensure that these types of medications are in the hands of families to ensure that they can limit the impacts of these particular rare diseases.  One thing that frustrates most people is the process and the time that it takes. We welcome the review into how rare diseases are dealt with. Deputy Barry Ward has already spoken about the need for a single European market when it comes to accessing drugs for rare diseases, and it is something that I was going to speak about. It makes sense. We are a small nation with a population of just over 5 million people and a small market to these pharmaceutical companies, but when we combine that with all of Europe, particularly when a lot of these drugs are being approved from European bases, we need to use that strength in numbers to ensure the access for people with these rare diseases.  There is a bigger issue in Ireland when it comes to access to drugs. The long-term illness scheme has not been updated since the 1970s. I appreciate the costs that are involved in this, however, if we look at permanent anaphylaxis, for example, young children and adults who need access to EpiPens cannot get them. This is something that we really need to review, particularly when it comes to long-term illnesses. We need to review how people with rare diseases, and people with diseases that are not that rare, access drugs in this country. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire  I want to pick up on a point made by Deputy Ward. He is right that an awful lot of these decisions come down to economics, and that is not the way it should be. There are clearly medicines that not only can make a profound impact on people's quality of life but can actually save lives. Of course, there has to be a system and decisions have to be made in an appropriate way, but that cuts very little mustard with someone like Craig Coady, who has lost a child through Friedreich's ataxia, and is now worried about his other child. It cuts very little mustard with a parent of a child who has Duchenne muscular dystrophy and who is watching their son's functions, muscular abilities, strength and ability to live their life to the greatest level possible go further and further from them.  The key point is that there has to be processes, but they have to be efficient, quick and responsive, and in our view that is not the case at this moment in time. In the first instance, I welcome the fact that there is now a rare disease strategy. The implementation of it will be key, but there are a number of key points that Ireland is falling down on. First, in relation to orphan medicines, in the instance of the 5% of rare diseases that benefit from an orphan medicine, where treatments exist, access is delayed. The State is an outlier when it comes to early access. There is no early access scheme for rare diseases. That should be happening. Rare Diseases Ireland has made the call that it should happen within one year of EMA authorisation. That is the case already, for example, with givinostat, which will benefit those with Duchenne muscular dystrophy. It has already been approved by the EMA, but it has been quite delayed getting through the system here. It is also the case that the reimbursement system is not designed for rare diseases. This is not a contradiction, but sometimes when we talk about rare diseases, we think of it the wrong way. Each disease is rare in and off itself, but when we take them cumulatively, they are not rare. It is not unusual for someone in the population to have a rare disease. It affects quite a lot of people, but by the nature of each individual condition, which has a smaller evidence basis as patient populations are smaller, the reimbursement scheme is not working for them. Smaller numbers are affected and it is not designed for rare diseases and this needs to be addressed.  I echo the point made in relation to the long-term illness scheme as well. There are instances, and I can send the Minister an example, where there are two people with the same disease with slight differences and one qualifies and one does not. That is not good enough either. The process clearly needs to be improved, but I welcome the progress made and I encourage the approval of givinostat and skyclarys. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Collins  Rare disease is an issue that affects thousands of families across Ireland, yet too often it receives far too little attention in this House. In particular, many patients face struggles gaining access to the medicines and treatments that could transform or even save their lives.  The word \"rare\" can be misleading. When people hear the term \u201crare disease\u201d, they imagine something that affects only a handful of people, but when we put all of these conditions together, the reality is very different. Today, around one in every 17 people in Ireland is living with a rare disease. That means hundreds of thousands of people across the country are affected in some way.  Behind every statistic is a family. There is a child waiting for a diagnosis. There is a parent fighting to access treatment. There is a young adult wondering whether their condition will deteriorate before a medicine becomes available, and there are families carrying enormous emotional, physical and financial burdens while having to navigate a healthcare system that is often difficult to access and even harder to understand. A treatment may exist. A medicine may already be approved elsewhere in Europe. Patients may know that the drug could help them, yet they can still face lengthy delays before that medicine becomes available in Ireland.  I particularly want to acknowledge the families who have spent months and years fighting for access to givinostat for children living with Duchenne muscular dystrophy. The recent recommendation from the HSE drugs group to approve this treatment is very welcome news and a testament to the determination of parents who simply refused to accept that their children should be left waiting while the clock ticked on. These families have shown enormous courage and persistence. They have attended meetings, spoken to public representatives, told their stories in the media and campaigned relentlessly because they understood one simple truth \u2014 time is muscle. Every day matters when a child is living with Duchenne.  I welcome the decision by the senior HSE leadership team to approve this treatment following intensive lobbying by Muscular Dystrophy Ireland, affected families and patient advocates. It shows what can be achieved when people come together and refuse to give up. We must now ensure that eligible children can access this medicine without delay and that the lessons learned from this campaign are applied to other rare disease treatments in the future.  I am calling on the Minister to ensure that the managed access protocol is expedited for these families. Independent Ireland believes that every citizen should have access to healthcare based on need, not on where they live, who they know or how effectively they can campaign for attention. We believe that patients suffering from rare diseases deserve the same urgency and commitment from the State as patients with more common conditions.  The publication of Ireland's national rare disease strategy was an important and welcome step. It recognises the need for earlier diagnosis, better care pathways, improved research, stronger patient involvement and improved access to orphan medicines, but strategies alone do not change lives. Implementation changes lives. Families do not need another glossy document sitting on a shelf. They need action, appointments, diagnostics and, where appropriate, they need timely access to treatment. The current system often evaluates these medicines using frameworks designed for large population treatments.  As a result, patients can experience lengthy delays before decisions are made.  Independent Ireland believes there is room for a more flexible and patient-centred approach. Our party believes that where a medicine has demonstrated clear clinical benefit and has received European regulatory approval, every effort should be made to ensure that Irish patients are not left waiting unnecessarily while administrative processes continue. Independent Ireland has consistently argued that public services should be built around the needs of citizens rather than bureaucracy. The healthcare system is no different. The needs of patients and families must come first. Recent agreements aimed at accelerating access to new medicines are welcome. However, the true test will not be what is written in an agreement; but whether patients and families notice a difference in their everyday lives. Can a child receive treatment sooner? Can a family avoid travelling abroad? Can a patient access a medicine before irreversible damage occurs? Those are the questions that matter.  Independent Ireland has consistently highlighted the challenges faced by families living outside major urban centres. Many rare disease patients must travel repeatedly to Dublin and to specialist centres for consultations, diagnostics and treatment. The financial burden, the time away from work and school and the emotional strain this places on families can be enormous. We need faster diagnostic pathways. We need improved support services for families. We need better regional access to specialist care wherever possible. We need a medicines approval system that recognises the particular challenges associated with rare diseases. More importantly, we need to listen to patients. Nobody understands the shortcomings of the system better than those who live with these conditions every day. Their voices must be at the centre of decision-making. A society is often judged by how it treats those who are most vulnerable. Families affected by rare diseases have shown extraordinary resilience, courage and determination. They should not have to spend years fighting for recognition, they should not have to spend years fighting for treatment and they certainly should not have to spend years fighting bureaucracy while their conditions deteriorate. Our job in this House is to ensure that hope is matched by action. That is what fairness demands. That is what compassion requires. That is what Independent Ireland believes should be delivered.  I wish to ask the Minister of State about Friedreich's ataxia and the medication Skyclarys. Where are we in relation to getting patients access to Skyclarys? The brother of Emma O'Shea in west Cork died from this disease. I met a group of young people who were here in Leinster House a few weeks ago. One was a young lady who was devastated by what the disease was doing to her. Every second without Skyclarys medication is a death sentence. I ask the Minister of State, how can we in opposition help the Government? We are not here to blame the Government, but how can we help? Surely if one of our children needed Skyclarys, we would find a way. I ask the Minister of State to please tell me how we can help. In his summing up, he might let me know where developments with regard to Skyclarys are. I have been in contact personally with Emma O'Shea continuously, even just up to a few minutes ago. She is struggling greatly and wants to know when there will be an announcement. I am not here to point fingers; I am just here to plead on behalf of that lady and other people who need Skyclarys. I would really appreciate when the Minister of State is summing up if he could give us some guideline. There was talk it might be announced last week - that did not happen - and that it could be announced next month. If it is, we would be absolutely overjoyed. This is a life-and-death issue. If Emma lost her brother, it is quite possible she could lose her own life. She is determined to fight on. There was a very strong piece in the Southern Star today about Emma and what she was suffering and going through. I would really appreciate if the Minister of State would give us some idea as to where the process is and whether there is a possibility in that regard. It might be clearer next month. If it is, it will certainly lead to saving Emma's life and the lives of many more out there. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Lawless  I want to speak on behalf of families and patients with Friedreich's ataxia and muscular dystrophy. I want to speak particularly for Eric Fitzgerald, a young man from Ballyhaunis, in County Mayo, who is losing power and muscle and whose lower limbs have weakened significantly. His condition is getting progressively worse. For Eric, the passage of time means the loss of muscle. It is extraordinarily sad. I met a group of young people with Friedreich's ataxia last month. I met a wonderful young woman called Emily Felix. Emily's story is again exceptionally sad. Emily has started recording her voice because she is losing her voice and losing muscle. That tells you how painful this disease is.  There is some hope, however, and that hope is in the form of the medication Skyclarys. It was approved by the European Medicines Agency in 2024. While it is not a full cure, the clinical guidelines show that it will reduce the progression of the disease by half for some patients. For many patients, that is the difference between living and surviving. It would have an immense impact on these young people's lives.  I know there is a very important meeting coming up in August. Many families across Ireland are clinging on to hope. I ask the Minister of State to make sure that the voices of these families are heard in that CPU meeting and I ask him to update this House as soon as possible. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Carrigy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Miche\u00e1l Carrigy  I welcome the opportunity to speak on this important issue. While some conditions are more widely known than others, both common and rare diseases have far-reaching impacts across our society. In recent times, awareness and advocacy campaigns have brought these issues to the forefront of public and political discourse. We have seen this through initiatives such as the FTD brothers' campaign raising awareness of dementia and through the courageous efforts of families affected by Friedreich's ataxia who have spoken publicly about the urgent need for medical intervention. In my home county, there are a number of families living with Friedreich's ataxia. I think particularly of Liam and Kiara Lynch and Theresa Kane and her two young children.  For those who are unfamiliar with this disease, it is a rare, inherited neurodegenerative disorder that can cause progressive damage to the nervous system and the heart. There is a treatment that has the potential to slow the progression of this and it offers life-changing benefits and, crucially, more time for those living with the condition. Approximately 200 people and their families are affected by Friedreich's ataxia in Ireland, and ensuring early access to this treatment would make a meaningful difference to each of them.  This issue highlights the broader challenges around access to innovative medicines for rare diseases. We must adopt a more responsive and flexible approach in Ireland to ensure that patients can access new, potentially life-altering treatments in a timely fashion.  In recent weeks, I have met with Biogen, the producer of Skyclarys, on a number of occasions to urge efficiency and urgency in its negotiations with the HSE. I have also engaged with the HSE and the Minister, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, to push as strongly as possible and to make sure that we get this drug, within the constraints of the proper negotiations that have to take place on behalf of the State. These discussions are progressing, albeit slowly, but we must examine our wider approach to rare diseases. A recent paper from the Alliance of Rare Disease Companies Ireland highlights the need for reform, noting that the current one-size-fits-all model for assessment and reimbursement is not fit for purpose. The programme for Government includes a commitment to review the drugs reimbursement process. However, it is essential that specific consideration be given to innovative and orphan medicines as part of this review.  I have recently learned of the managed access approach, which is used in other countries such as France. This model allows patients to access new treatments immediately while data is gathered over a defined period. A formal review takes place, with negotiations continuing in parallel. It is a pragmatic solution that prioritises patients' care while ensuring robust evaluation.  We need to be more innovative and flexible in how we approach access to medicines. There are critical conversations and they must continue if we are to ensure that patients receive the life-changing care they need when they need it. I would also support further research and development incentives for our pharma industry to do research into producing new drugs that may give an improved quality of life to our citizens and work in tandem with the managed access programme so that when these innovative drugs are developed, they are accessible and can be used by our citizens.  I thank the Minister, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, for her engagement with me on this. It is important that we come to a conclusion shortly to make sure that our citizens and those who are suffering, particularly from Friedreich's ataxia, get the treatment they need to give them an extended quality of life. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Lahart","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Lahart.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Lahart.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Lahart  I welcome the opportunity to contribute to these statements on rare diseases. I chair an ad hoc cross-party committee in the Oireachtas on the subject of rare diseases and have done for some time. My speaking time is very limited.  To put it in context, one in 17 people in Ireland has a rare disease. In this D\u00e1il Chamber, that would mean ten Members would have a rare disease. If we populate those ten around the seating in the Chamber it actually brings it to life and gives it reality. We all know someone and there are possibly colleagues who have rare diseases.  As colleagues with whom I have been privileged to work will know, particularly Deputy P\u00e1draig O'Sullivan who spoke earlier, I never put this on the record but have said to groups that when we are fighting for a cause that includes the word \"rare\" in terms of the disease, and \"orphan\" in terms of the drug, we know we are fighting an uphill battle. Any advocacy work that begins with those two words means being out on the extremes and the sidelines, fighting. My colleague, Deputy Dr. Martin Daly is here and he will know far more about this than I do. One of the ways I look at this is that we are learning much more about the recognised, mainstream diseases, as it were. Drugs are becoming much more targeted and there are more hybrid approaches to tackling many of the regular and everyday conditions that we meet. Where there would have been orphan drugs before, we have an awful lot more hybrid drugs that are born out of existing medications. I fully understand my colleagues mentioning specific conditions. I am reluctant to do so out of the knowledge, having dealt with some constituents over the last decade and beyond, that for every condition we mention here that is in need of assistance, there is probably someone sitting at home saying \"what about my condition?\" that is one of the 2,000-odd rare diseases.  I commend the dynamism, innovation, creativity and research that is going on among the best of our pharma companies. We are very well placed here. I have often told the pharma companies that they really ought to be pushing their weight about a little bit more. Ireland depends hugely on them. We should have far more clinical trials here. It is an issue that the rare diseases group recognises. I commend the Minister on some of the work that has been done recently. Particularly, I welcome the commitment to establish a national rare disease registry and an implementation oversight group. They are some of the things that can be done. I will defer to my colleague, Deputy Dr. Martin Daly. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Martin Daly  I acknowledge the families and people who live with rare diseases for their advocacy and their resilience. I am not going to go into individual diseases. It is welcome news, though, that givinostat has been approved. I pay particular tribute to the current Minister for Health, who has really taken on the issue around givinostat and is also looking at the reform of the accessibility for orphan drugs for people. I also pay tribute to Deputy P\u00e1draig O'Sullivan, who has been at this for a number of years. It is sometimes a demoralising task. I commend also Senator Anne Rabbitte, and Senator Teresa Costello on her unstinting support for families who are living with boys with Duchenne dystrophy.  I will just make a couple of points. We have to factor everything into these rare diseases. They are often chronic, progressive, debilitating diseases. We need to factor in the cost of care without the early intervention of these drugs. That is not to give an open chequebook to pharmaceutical firms that produce orphan drugs. While we are grateful that they take on the research and development of orphan drugs, by their nature they are exclusive to that condition, so they have a closed market and considerable leverage over states in terms of the cost of those drugs. Some of those drugs that are designated orphan drugs achieve wider applications and become very profitable for those companies, outside the rare disease piece. I think of drugs like rituximab and Avastin, some of which have applications in inflammatory diseases beyond the rare diseases, such as inflammatory arthritis and in the area of treatment of cancers. That needs to be balanced.  We also need to understand that it cannot always be that the State has to just open the coffers. We have to balance it. There is a defined budget and we have to balance the needs of other people in the system. That is not taking away from the need to have a proper, efficient system of evaluation and bringing these drugs to patients who need them. As a small country, we lack the heft and leverage with these companies. We should be operating through the European Union to try to have better negotiating leverage. We need better-managed access to these drugs and early access schemes. We are not engaging properly in clinical trials, for a country that hosts so much pharma industry. That is a recurring theme. I would like to think that a ring-fenced fund could be achieved out of the tax revenues from some of the pharma companies, that would be designated for the treatment of rare diseases. At the end of this, I want to remember the people who are suffering from these diseases and the families who live with them. We cannot imagine unless we walk in their shoes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh  I was really pleased to see this on the agenda. It is very important that we have this discussion in the Chamber today because it really matters. On orphan drugs and clinical trials, it is important to have that negotiation power for the leverage we need, and it is really important that we address this on an all-island basis and have an all-island system. We have been looking at this within the Good Friday Agreement as well in terms of an all-island national healthcare system. It is clearly coming through that were we to have an increased population for all of the island, it would make it much easier and much more efficient to have those clinical trials. It is important to note that going out from here today.  I want to raise the urgent need for access to Skyclarys. It has been raised many times in the Chamber. I was watching on the screens. There are over 200 people living with Friedrich's ataxia in Ireland. For those diagnosed with this devastating rare condition, this drug represents far more than another medicine. It offers hope for slowing progression, preserving mobility and maintaining independence and giving families precious time together, yet many families in Mayo and across Ireland are forced to watch their loved ones deteriorate while waiting for the decision on funding through the HSE. Every month that passes means a loss of function that can never be regained. Time matters enormously for people with progressive degenerative conditions. Skyclarys was approved by the European Medicines Agency in February 2024 and is available to patients in the US, UK, France, Germany, Austria and other countries. Meanwhile, here in Ireland we continue to lag behind. We rank 23rd out of 27 EU countries for the speed at which we reimburse treatments for rare diseases. That is simply not good enough. Countless families in Mayo and many other places have contacted me directly, pleading for Skyclarys to be approved. One email came from a 32-year-old man who has lived with Friedrich's ataxia his whole life and has been in a wheelchair since he was 17. He and his family should not have to spend their days campaigning, fundraising and begging for access to medicine that could change the course of his illness.  Friedrich's ataxia is only one example. Boys living with Duchenne muscular dystrophy who were waiting over a year for a decision regarding givinostat only received the positive news this week that this drug would be reimbursed. I certainly welcome that but there are so many families trapped in similar situations while bureaucratic processes drag on. We need an urgent decision on Skyclarys. Beyond that, we need fundamental reform of the entire medicines approval and reimbursement process. I am glad the Minister has started that but six months is a long time for some of these families. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Heneghan  I appreciate the opportunity to speak on this very important issue. I acknowledge all of the groups that have reached out to me and to my office. We all have a responsibility to do everything possible to ensure that all the people of Ireland can get the best treatments, medicines and supports available.  I want to highlight specific conditions which have already been mentioned. Members of the Friedreich's ataxia group are still awaiting approval and access to a drug. There has been some movement on that, which I welcome. I welcome the opportunity to meet the group and the extraordinary individuals who are advocating, including Emily. The group travelled to Leinster House and successfully highlighted the unacceptable and prolonged wait they continue to endure. Emily put it very simply to me, namely that every delay has real consequences for her independence and function. That is why the opportunity to have this debate really matters.  For these families, this is not simply an administrative process. Every week and month that passes can mean further deterioration in not only their physical health but also their mental health and quality of life. They want an opportunity to live independently as most young adults do. I welcome that the Minister and Taoiseach have engaged directly with the Italian manufacturer to encourage an application. I appreciate the response the Minister shared with my office on 27 May.  I urge that every effort be made to progress this as quickly as possible because every time there is a delay in the treatment of a rare disease which is brought to the attention of the media or this House by successful campaigners, it shows that there is clearly a systematic error in how we deal with the new medicines and treatments that become available.  I also want to highlight something multiple constituents have raised with me, namely Duchenne muscular dystrophy. I thank Stephanie for meeting me. It is a devastating and progressive condition but she was very strong and said she would be watching the debate. I want to welcome the positive recommendation from the HSE drug group. I thank it for the work that has been done on that. There is a lot more to be done and I will continue to engage with the Minister's office. I will always acknowledge when work has been done successfully.  The former Minister for disabilities, Finian McGrath, got me into politics and worked tirelessly on the provision of a cystic fibrosis unit in Beaumont Hospital. I recently attended a meeting of Cystic Fibrosis Ireland and met service users and people currently attending treatment centres. A lot more can be done for those with cystic fibrosis. I welcome the 20-bed unit in Beaumont Hospital and the installation of other units. People with cystic fibrosis cannot be in close contact with others. There needs to be more public awareness of the difficulties facing those with cystic fibrosis and the other rare diseases mentioned by Members of the House today.  I would encourage us to speak more about this issue. This is one of the first opportunities I have had since being elected to the House speak on this important issue. We, as legislators, have an obligation to make the lives of the people of Ireland better. I welcome the work the Minister of State has done with special education in my constituency.  With regard to rare diseases, it needs more attention. When errors in the system pop up, they need to be dealt with as quickly as possible. We are not just dealing with a leak in a tap. Rare diseases affect people's lives and development. It is something that we need to fix. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Rare Diseases: Statements"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_38","debateType":"topical","bill":null,"showAs":"\u00c1bhair Shaincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Matters","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_38","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  I wish to advise the House of the following matters in respect of which notice has been given under Standing Order 39 and the name of the Member in each case:  Deputy Pat Buckley - To discuss an application for an interim ancillary grant by a national school in Mitchelstown.  Deputy Tom Brabazon - To discuss the loss of staff at St. Francis Junior School in Priorswood in the context of its new DEIS plus status.  Deputy Barry Ward - To discuss the steps being taken to address and mitigate storm water overflow discharges affecting Dublin Bay, including their impact on bathing water quality along the D\u00fan Laoghaire coastline.  Deputy Shane Moynihan - To discuss delays in reimbursement under the cross-border healthcare directive.  Deputy Louise O'Reilly - To discuss the national child poverty target.  Deputy Malcolm Byrne - To discuss the development of Bunclody Community College, County Wexford.  Deputy Gary Gannon - To discuss the proposed reforms of the criminal legal aid system.  Deputy Paul Murphy - To discuss the decision of South Dublin County Council to increase council, HAP and homeless HAP rents from July.  Deputy Barry Heneghan - To discuss the proposed relocation of An Post sorting office, Harmonstown and the impact on local postal services.  Deputy Joe Neville - To discuss ongoing water issues in Kildare North, including a low water reserve in Donadea and surrounding areas as well as ongoing pipe bursts in Leixlip and the mismanagement of Uisce \u00c9ireann in North Kildare.  Deputy Ged Nash - To discuss the HSE's decision to close 14 transitional care beds in the Cottage Hospital, Drogheda, County Louth, and redeploy staff to Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital.  Deputy Maurice Quinlivan - To discuss the need to allocate funding for the roll out of BusConnects in Limerick city.  Deputy Robert O'Donoghue - Uisce \u00c9ireann to minimise disruption from planned water outages in Lusk.  Deputy P\u00e1draig O'Sullivan - To discuss the ongoing issues with Courtbrack, County Cork, water supply, which has been under a boil water notice for almost one year.  Deputies Claire Kerrane and Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa - To discuss F\u00f3rsa's planned industrial action at Oberstown.  The matters raised by Deputies Barry Heneghan, Joe Neville, Robert O'Donoghue, P\u00e1draig O'Sullivan and Louise O'Reilly have been selected for discussion. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"\u00c1bhair Shaincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Matters"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_39","debateType":"statement","bill":null,"showAs":"Rare Diseases: Statements (Resumed)","counts":{"speechCount":8,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_39","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Education and Youth (Deputy Michael Moynihan)  I thank all the Deputies from across the House who have contributed to this important discussion. The contributions from across the House have been thoughtful, constructive and, above all, grounded in the lived experience of the families and people affected by rare diseases. Many Members have spoken with real insight and compassion about the challenges faced, the long wait for diagnosis, the difficulty navigating services, the strain placed on families and the understandable frustration when access to medicine and treatments are delayed.  What has come through clearly is that while the details of individual conditions may differ, the themes are constant. People want answers sooner. People want care that is more joined up. They want greater clarity, better support and, where possible, access to new and innovative treatment in a timely and compassionate manner. Above all, they want to be heard, not occasionally but as a core part of how decisions are made. I want to acknowledge the powerful advocacy that Members have reflected on today. I want to pay tribute to Deputy O'Sullivan, others in my party and Members across House who have advocated.  Deputies have brought the voices of patients and families directly into this Chamber. This ensures the work remains grounded in the reality of people's lives, not just in policy frameworks. I want to take a moment to acknowledge Craig Coady, who was here today, and his son Paudie. I have known the family for many years over my time as a public representative. I know Craig has been to the fore in accessing drugs for Paudie. I pay particular tribute to him for the advocacy and engagement he has had with Members across the Chamber. He has advocated on behalf of his family and I pay tribute to him for the outstanding person he is, considering the burdens that have been placed upon him. He is working very hard and I reach out to him and other the families today. I know Craig well as well as the many others who have reached out to us. Like all Deputies in the House, we know families in our own areas.  I cannot pre-empt the outcomes of the HSE drug group but having engaged with the Department of Health, I know that everybody across the national system and in the HSE is working as quickly and thoroughly as possible to advance the process involved. Nobody is trying to delay this and everyone is acutely aware of how important the timelines are for individuals and families. In all contributions, there has been a strong and shared understanding that while progress has been made, there is an awful lot more work to do. It is important that we recognise that.  The national rare disease strategy 2025-30 provides a clear structure and patient-centred framework for change. As we speak today, patients, advocates, clinicians and Department officials are meeting to further review the strategic implementation plan. This is to ensure that commitments in the strategy translate into practical actions with timelines and accountability. We have made progress in screening and diagnosis, including the expansion of the newborn screening programme to include more rare diseases. This step will make a real difference for children and families by enabling earlier intervention.  Work will continue to further expand our newborn screening programme. In this regard, the National Screening Advisory Committee, NSAC, has accepted advice from its newborn screening subgroup on the grouping of similar conditions into a singular health technology assessment, HTA, process. The aim of grouping conditions is to expedite the review process timeline. As things stand, and dependent on the findings of the HTA, this creates a pathway to significantly expand the national newborn blood spot screening programme before the conclusion of the national rare disease strategy in 2030.  We are strengthening our approach to genetics and genomics, including through the delivery of the national genomics test directory for rare and inherited diseases. This will help to ensure patients receive the right test in the right place at the right time.  We are seeing progress on care co-ordination, with the introduction of dedicated care co-ordinators and continuing development of integrated care pathways. This is in recognition that, for patients, co-ordination is not an administrative detail but a fundamental part of their experience of care.  We are taking steps to improve access to medicines, including through the new framework arrangements, the commitment to an early access scheme for rare diseases and the move towards timely reimbursement decisions. We are also looking critically at our existing systems. The decision to undertake an end-to-end review of the medicines approval and reimbursement process reflects the recognition that we must continue to improve how we deliver for patients, particularly where delays and uncertainties have real impacts on the lives of our citizens.  We are seeing encouraging examples of progress on individual conditions. A number of decisions were taken recently whereby we showed that when we work together constructively, we can move forward and do so at pace. That kind of collaboration really matters and we must continue to build on it.  At the same time, we must be honest that despite all the progress we are making, families are still experiencing many of the challenges Deputies have raised. For too many people, care is still fragmented, diagnosis is taking too long, and access to services and support can be difficult. For families waiting for treatment, the timelines feel far too long. That reality must continue to guide our work. The true measure of progress is not what we can point to in a policy document but, rather, what people experience in their daily lives. Do they receive answers more quickly, is their care more co-ordinated, does the system feel easier to navigate and do they feel supported, not just clinically but as individuals and families? These are elements we must improve.  I return briefly to the central theme that has run through this debate, namely, the importance of patient partnership. It is not an optional element of the policy; it is absolutely fundamental to it. People living with rare diseases and their families bring expertise that no system can replicate. Their voices must continue to shape how we design services, prioritise investment and measure progress. That is why patient involvement is embedded in the national rare diseases strategy. That commitment must now be fully carried through into the implementation of the policy.  We are at a point of real opportunity. We have a national strategy, we are putting structures in place and we have momentum. Internationally, rare diseases are now recognised as a global health priority and there is increased alignment across Europe on the need for more co-ordinated approaches to research, diagnosis, care and access to treatment. The task ahead is clear. We must continue to implement the rare diseases strategy with a focus and urgency to reduce delays in diagnosis, improve co-ordination of care, strengthen access to medicines and treatments in a fair, transparent and timely way, and ensure patients' voices remain at the very centre of everything we do.  No one should have to navigate these complexities alone. Nobody should have to fight so hard to be heard, understood and to have access to the care they need. Our role, collectively and individually, is to build a system that responds with compassion, clarity and co-ordination. We have made progress. There is more to do but we are moving in the right direction. Working together, in government and right across the House, together with the stakeholders, patients and their families, we can continue to make real progress. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Collins  On a point of order, will the Minister of State give us some direction on the situation regarding Skyclarys? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Sorry, Deputy, that is not allowed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Collins  That is all I am asking. The Minister of State might respond briefly in the 30 seconds remaining to him. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  The Deputy has not raised a point of order. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Collins  It is a very important issue. People are dying. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  If the Minister of State wishes to use the time remaining to respond to the Deputy, he may do so. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Moynihan  I appreciate the importance of this issue but I do not want to mislead the House. There is movement on it. We are pushing it with seriousness at our end. There is a lot of complexity involved but we are working seriously on the issue. I cannot give the Deputy dates but I can guarantee that everything that can be done on the Government's part is being done. We all know families and individuals affected by this. We are bound to ensure we remove any obstacles on our side. That is being done in a very serious way. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Rare Diseases: Statements (Resumed)"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_40","debateType":"topical","bill":null,"showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":false,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_40","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_41","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Postal Services","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_40","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_40","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_41","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Heneghan  The issue I raise has been raised by other Deputies in the Chamber. It is something that is happening across Dublin. I was in the Chair last week when colleagues asked about the closure of the sorting office on Griffith Avenue. The response from the Government was, I understand, the one it received from An Post. Before the Minister of State reads out the response he has been given, I ask him to recall why he got involved in politics and the passion he has for his area.  Within two weeks of starting a petition on the proposed relocation of the sorting office in Harmonstown, I had collected 2,000 signatures from the people I represent. More than 300 people contacted my office by telephone after I dropped leaflets in Harmonstown, Artane and the other affected areas. I have asked the Minister of State to think back to why he became involved in politics. As public representatives, we need information to represent the public successfully. I have been asking An Post what alternative arrangements will be implemented for the elderly and for people with mobility issues and other disabilities to enable them to collect their packages. Currently, if people are not home when an attempt is made to deliver, their package will go to the sorting office for storage until they collect it.  An Post has said people will be able to go to the other post offices. However, we have seen the issues arising from the increasing numbers of parcel deliveries. Anyone who works Monday to Friday will miss their parcel. My understanding of what is currently proposed is that people in the Harmonstown area will have to go to Finglas to collect their parcels. That is a problem when traffic is already bad enough, we are looking to decarbonise our energy system and we are examining the idea of a 15-minute city. Some 2,000 people responded to my petition. That includes only the people I could reach. This is the community that I represent having its say. The sorting office is already up for sale. All we are asking for, as set out in my petition, is that An Post guarantee the community that there will be enough locations from which to collect their parcels. An Post has told us that local collection will remain in the area but there is no detail on that. It is not good enough. How can a community be okay with losing a vital amenity when the detail of what will replace it has not been given?  An Post is owned by the people. Since the foundation of the State, it is has been one of the best-run public services. I know a lot of the workers, who are brilliant. They not only do their job; they have a chat with the people who come to collect their parcel. The sorting office is a community asset. I am not asking the Minister of State to collapse An Post and set it right as to its operational needs. The engineers and others working there, when discussing their plans for the day, are trying to react to the changes in how the postal service is being used. What I am asking is that the Minister of State seek a clear answer from An Post as to where the people I represent will collect their post when the sorting office in Harmonstown is gone. They need that answer before the office, which is already up for sale, is relocated. The community needs to know what will replace that service, upon which they rely. I spoke to many people on the doorsteps who were visibly upset about this. The office has been there since they bought their home. It is not acceptable for An Post to say this is an operational matter.  It has been done in other areas across the country and has been shown to fail. I would love an answer as to how they will get back to the Minister of State. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Education and Youth (Deputy Michael Moynihan)  An Post is a commercial semi-State company with a mandate to act commercially. As such, day-to-day operational matters such as decisions in relation to the size, distribution and future of the network are matters for the board and the management of the company. They are not matters in respect of which either the Minister of State, Deputy McConalogue, or the Minister, Deputy O\u2019Donovan, have a statutory function. The Ministers are well aware of the impact that decisions relating to changes in An Post operations have on communities and individuals in both rural and urban Ireland. As noted, this is a matter for the company. It would be inappropriate for the Government, as a shareholder, to comment on or prejudice decisions which are for the board and management of An Post to consider.  That said, this is an operational matter. Officials have been engaging with the company. An Post has advised in the case of Harmonstown, which the Deputy referred to, that the move is very much in the future and that there is much to be considered in the interim, including the facilities in the local area to be utilised in respect of undelivered mail. An Post has advised that it is in consultation with its staff and their unions on the details of the move. An Post notes that it is consolidating its national network of local sorting offices, which are also known as delivery sorting units, DSU. The company advises that it needs larger and purpose-fitted premises to manage increased parcel volumes. It also advises that as part of a city-wide plan over this year and next, it is relocating a number of its delivery offices to the new city delivery hubs. Among these will be the An Post delivery offices in Harmonstown, Dublin 5, and Griffith Avenue, Whitehall, Dublin 9, moving to a new north Dublin delivery hub. An Post states that the proposed move is scheduled for the second quarter of next year and that there is much to be considered before then. An Post states that its delivery office in Finglas, Dublin 11, will also be sharing the new facility which is being completed and purpose fitted at the North City Business Park in Dublin 11. An Post remains in consultation with its staff and unions on the details of the above moves.  An Post further advises that it will facilitate the collection of missed mail in local post offices and parcel collection pick up at the post point outlets. An Post states that the move will have little day-to-day impact on local customers because the same postal workers will be delivering on the same local routes as before. An Post advises that it needs much larger premises and-or repurposed facilities to manage increased parcel volumes and to meet the future needs of the city and the changing needs of customers. An Post notes these new buildings also represent an improvement in working conditions for staff and make huge inroads in terms of sustainability around heating, lighting and the day-to-day operations of buildings like the new delivery hub.  An Post advises that it is also hiring 300 additional postmen and postwomen across the country, some of whom will be working in this area, to manage the massive growth in volume. The Government is committed to a sustainable An Post. The post office network as a key component of the economic and social infrastructure throughout Ireland. The programme for Government states that the Government will continue to provide a nationwide network of post offices with funding to ensure their sustainability and to enhance the value they bring to local communities. The Department of Culture, Communications and Sport is working to deliver on this and an enhanced amount of \u20ac15 million per annum has been allocated for supporting the network, subject to all legal requirements being satisfied. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Heneghan  I appreciate the response. As I said, An Post is a semi-State company. This is one of the most frustrating things that has been done. I know it has been done across the globe. When it happens, a Minister can offload the issue to the regulator. That is done with the HSE and the NTA. I would love if that could be revoked in order that we could actually elect people who can make decisions rather than having unelected officials in every Department making them.  I was in the Chair when the reply was given. I am not having a go at the Minister of State. I welcome the work he has done. I know he is covering for the Minister and is reading out the response that An Post supplied. The other two responses that An Post gave were nearly identical. The only thing that has changed is that the timeline has shifted from very much in the future, which was given to another Deputy in my constituency three weeks ago, to quarter 2 of next year.  The Government cannot keep saying it has no statutory function, even though I accept that is the current legal position. However, a shareholder does have influence. Every shareholder has influence and the Government of Ireland should have influence over An Post. The idea that the company is a semi-State body but yet the State has zero influence on it makes no sense. Talk to my constituents before their services are uprooted. I hope the Minister of State will relay this to the Minister and that he, in turn, will relay it to An Post.  An Post needs to speak to my constituents. I simply do not accept that a semi-State company cannot communicate with the service users of our national postal service. The people I represent are not asking for this not to be done; they are asking for the basic respect of being told the plan as to where they will collect their post, before the move is made as opposed to afterwards. I will continue to pursue this matter. The petition is still open and more people are signing it every day, because this was thrown at this community. We and the people of north Dublin need to know what is going to happen. I appreciate the Minister of State's engagement so far. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Moynihan  The point the Deputy makes is one that is being made about urban and rural Ireland by people across the country. An Post has been a very trusted brand over many years. As with everything, life evolves. There is a big challenge for An Post in the context of how the traditional mail delivery service has moved on in terms of the amount of mail being posted, but there has also been a huge uptick in parcel deliveries. It is very important that An Post is properly structured, not just in urban areas but also right across the country, because it is a huge brand that we have trust in. In order to ensure its future, very difficult decisions will have to be made.  The Deputy made a fundamental point about the collection of undelivered parcels and so forth. There is the An Post network and then there are the post points which are dotted across the cities and urban and rural Ireland. These have to be a hugely integral part of how An Post delivers it services into the future.  I am deviating slightly from the note I have been given, but I believe that An Post will have to evolve into the Ireland of 2026 and beyond as we go forward. With the network, brand and trust that An Post has, we need to ensure that is reachable for all urban and rural communities. An Post is expanding its operations and is recruiting over 300 postal staff. That is great to see, and it is hugely important that our semi-State company makes the right decisions in order to ensure that we deliver for the citizens of Ireland over the next number of years. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Postal Services"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_42","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Water Services","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_40","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_40","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_42","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  I take this opportunity to voice my frustration and that of thousands of people who live in north Kildare in the context of dealing with the semi-State body that is Uisce \u00c9ireann. Across the north of the county, from Leixlip all the way to Johnstownbridge and down to Naas, we regularly come across issues with Uisce \u00c9ireann. I want to deal with specific issues. We have issues in Leixlip where we get a consistent water burst near the Intel plant. Not a month goes by without a pipe bursting. Typically, it happens at around 6 p.m. on Fridays or at weekends. This means that we can be without water for 12 or 14 hours at a time and are reliant on contractors.  Second, there are the low water levels at the reservoir in Allenwood. This affects Carbury, Kilmeage, Prosperous and all the other places in the area. Up to 15,000 people at time can be impacted.  Third, I want to speak specifically about the issues in Celbridge. There has been low water pressure in the town for a number of years. Work is ongoing at Hazelhatch to alleviate the problem, which is a positive. At the same time, however, two huge construction projects are under way in Celbridge.  I will speak specifically to the second of these. As Fine Gael's spokesperson on infrastructure and delivery and as vice chairman of the Oireachtas infrastructure committee, I welcome any water infrastructure upgrades that are happening for houses in my constituency. I am, however, frustrated by the speed at which those upgrades and infrastructure in general are being delivered and rolled out. I specifically refer to the towns of Prosperous and Staplestown in this regard, where Councillors Brendan Wyse and William Durkan are consistently raising this matter at council level. They are highlighting the impact that water levels are having and are not getting the answers they require from Uisce \u00c9ireann.  As a result of low water levels at Allenwood reservoir, 15,000 people, typically the most vulnerable, are regularly impacted. We need a simple, clear explanation as to the cause of the recurring low water levels and outages at the reservoir, an explanation as to why residents frequently receive inadequate advance notice, clarification on whether current and projected housing development has outpaced existing water infrastructure capacity and, most of all, details of any short-, medium- or long-term infrastructure works or investment plans to resolve these issues. We want to develop and to build, but we want to ensure that we have the water infrastructure in place for the houses that are built. Information on contingency planning for future supplies is required.  As I said, there are two water projects in train in Celbridge. People cannot get in and out of the town as a result of issues we are having with traffic. That is simply not good enough. The second of these projects relates to a new development of houses, which I obviously welcome, but the plan has been implemented in the wrong way at the wrong place, which means that the pipes are running down towards the main entrance into Celbridge. A public meeting was held. I was one of the only politicians present. We were informed as to what the impact would be. In the interim, we have had to change it a number of times with Uisce \u00c9ireann. That was not because Uisce \u00c9ireann came to us, it was because we went to Uisce \u00c9ireann.  As already stated, in Leixlip, every six weeks without fail we have a burst along the main line, which many Deputies here will know, between Carton and Intel. This does not happen by accident. It happens because the water pressure comes. These bursts happen regularly. The matter needs to be resolved. This is something I highlighted when I was a councillor. It embarrasses me to raise it here as a TD. The people of Leixlip have been let down. They are frustrated. This not only impacts Leixlip, it also impacts Celbridge and Maynooth. That is why I raised both matters today in the form of a Topical Issue relating to Uisce \u00c9ireann. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Moynihan  I thank the Deputy for raising this important issue. I am answering the issue on behalf of the Minister, James Browne, who sends his apologies as he cannot be here.  As the Deputy knows, Uisce \u00c9ireann has statutory responsibility for all aspects of water services and planning. Neither I nor the Minister have operational functions in respect of the matter. However, we have made inquiries with Uisce \u00c9ireann and have been informed that it is committed to solving and replacing the necessary section of the Maynooth-Leixlip mains water network and has a project in place to do so. Design challenges have arisen in the context of reinforcing the existing pipe and routing a replacement, all while maintaining the required capacity to meet demand on the network. Solutions are being investigated. In the interim, immediate steps have been taken to respond to bursts in the area and to manage supply interruptions as quickly as possible, such as ramping up out-of-hours repair crews and gearing up local stores to ensure urgent availability of materials required. Uisce \u00c9ireann is also working with businesses in the area to encourage and ensure on-site storage is in place to limit supply interruptions.  Uisce \u00c9ireann acknowledges that a long-term solution is required. It is in the process of designing one. In County Kildare, there is a proposed investment of over \u20ac170 million in capital projects including the Celbridge and Maynooth leakage reduction programmes and Crodaun wastewater network upgrade that will address some of the most urgent infrastructure deficits, meet environmental obligations and support capacity for housing.  It is important to note that Uisce \u00c9ireann is dealing with a legacy of underinvestment in water services and infrastructure across Ireland. The scale of the remedial work necessary in our water and wastewater systems will take a number of years and investment cycles to resolve. Uisce \u00c9ireann has delivered significant improvements in the provision of water services. Hundreds of water and wastewater treatment plants have been upgraded, thousands of kilometres of new or rehabilitated water mains have been installed, the national leakage rate has been reduced and the overall quality of drinking water remains very high. As part of its future investment plans, Uisce \u00c9ireann has brought together the water for growth programme, which is a comprehensive view of water supply and resilience projects in the eastern region, including parts of Kildare. This programme includes some 30 water projects at an estimated investment of \u20ac500 million in treatment plant upgrades, new trunk mains and strategic reservoirs to strengthen supply and support growth across the region.  I know this is a matter in respect of which Deputy Neville has been advocating for some time, but Uisce \u00c9ireann is engaging in respect of some of the fundamental issues. I accept that more work needs to be done. Uisce \u00c9ireann assures us that it is meeting the many challenges that exist in the area to which the Deputy referred head-on as best it can. I will refer to that aspect in my closing remarks. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  I thank the Minister for State. Unfortunately, I have heard a lot of that before - not from the Minister of State but from Uisce \u00c9ireann - during my time as a councillor and since I was elected as a TD. I raised this matter on Questions on Policy or Legislation with the T\u00e1naiste, Deputy Simon Harris, on 30 April. That was three days after the pipe burst on 27 April. The kids at Confey Community College were here and, like many of their counterparts in the other schools in Leixlip, they were sent home. Last week, on 9 June, we had another outage. The water goes off a 6 p.m. and does not come back on until 3 a.m. It is gone all evening and most of the night. Children cannot be bathed. Elderly people do not have access to water.  That is the reality of life in Leixlip. People can, within reason, estimate that every five or six weeks the water is going to go. We have Intel in Leixlip. The company employs 5,000 people. We know that we can build infrastructure. Infrastructure has been developed. One of the most technologically advanced semiconductor plants in the world is located there, but we have a pipe that bloody bursts every month, which leaves people without water. Breweries in the area are impacted. Other businesses and coffee shops cannot open as a result of the same issue. All we need to do is fix a pipe.  As stated, I raised this matter when I was a councillor. I am raising it again as a TD. I do not want to be coming in here every month or six weeks to raise the same issue. This is about the basics. It is about people being able to have a shower. It is about being able to drink water. It is about the elderly people knowing that they can use their toilets. To be frank, it is not good enough. What Uisce \u00c9ireann said in the reply is simply not good enough. It has not been good enough for the past couple of years since it made the same reply to me when I was a councillor. Unfortunately, I will have to keep raising this matter until it is resolved. I do not want to hear excuses or about the plans, ideas, concepts or struggles Uisce \u00c9ireann is having because, frankly, its delivery in north Kildare across all areas has not been good enough. It needs to do much better. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Moynihan  I hear loud and clear the frustration in the Deputy's voice in relation to this issue. The points he made are very relevant. Water is a basic requirement for everyday living. The Deputy referred to children, adults and the elderly. Water is a fundamental aspect of everyday living. The Deputy also spoke about businesses and the frustration people have when the water is cut off. The challenge we have is when there is a commitment given that it will be back by 9 a.m. but does not come back until 2 p.m. the following day for whatever reason.  People's livelihoods are being put at risk. The Deputy spoke about cafes and other businesses. I hear the frustration, and I know the first port of call for people is their local TD or councillor to ask what they are going to do about it. What the Deputy said about Leixlip in testimony to the fact that, as he outlined, what is happening is simply not good enough. I will take back what I have heard to the Department and to Uisce \u00c9ireann and, in the strongest possible terms, ask them to respond. While the D\u00e1il is the forum in which to raise important issues such as those outlined by the Deputy, we still have to get responses from the statutory bodies. I will communicate the Deputy's frustration to the Minister, in the first instance, and to Uisce \u00c9ireann, which I will ask for an update. I do not just mean seeking a response that will come back in a week or ten days; I mean real action on what needs to be done in Leixlip. I assure the Deputy that we will relay what he said to those to whom I refer. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Water Services"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_43","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Water Supply","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_40","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_40","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_43","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-O'Donoghue.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Robert-O'Donoghue.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-O'Donoghue.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Robert-O'Donoghue.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Robert O'Donoghue  I thank the Minister of State for taking Topical Issues again - two days in a row. I must be following him around. It is appreciated. I wish to raise a matter today, similar to the previous speaker, around the growing concerns for families in Lusk, in my constituency of Dublin Fingal West. Repeated water outages have taken place for the past couple of weeks affecting two estates, in particular Kelly Park and Dun Emer.  From the outset, I want to be clear. I am not denying that maintenance and upgrade work to our infrastructure is not essential. Some of these pipes are 50 or 60 years old, so the fact that they are being done is to be welcomed. We all want reliable and resilient water infrastructure and investment in that infrastructure is welcome.  However, serious questions must be asked as to how these works are being scheduled and the impact they are having on local families, childcare providers and businesses. Councillor Mark Boland and I have been inundated by a number of businesses in Lusk over the past couple of weeks, including two early years education providers. Between them, they provide care for up to 100 families. Under the Tusla regulations, these providers must have access to running water in order to operate safely and legally. They are full-day services so they cannot use just what they have in the tank. It is not that they are early childhood care and education, ECCE, or national childcare scheme, NCS, services. When the water supply is interrupted, they simply cannot open their doors.  The consequences are significant. Parents are left scrambling at short notice to find alternative childcare arrangements. Many have no choice but to take annual leave from work. Others lose a day's wages. Meanwhile, they continue to pay their regular childcare fees and taxes that fund Government subsidies to support these providers. They are forced to pay a third time when they are looking for alternative childcare. This is not a minor inconvenience; it places real financial pressure on working families who are already dealing with the rising cost of living.  My question is straightforward. Why are these planned outages repeatedly taking place during normal working hours on weekdays? If they are scheduled and planned works, surely every effort should be made to minimise disruption to families and businesses. Have any alternatives been considered? Can these works be scheduled in the evenings, overnight and at weekends when the impact on early education and school-age childcare providers, schools, businesses and working parents would be substantially reduced?  The people of Lusk understand the need for infrastructure works. What we are asking for is consideration, communication and common sense in regard to how these works are carried out. Therefore, I am calling on Uisce \u00c9ireann and the Minister of State to review the schedule around planned water outages and engage directly with affected communities to ensure that essential works can proceed while minimising disruption to families, childcare providers and local businesses. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Moynihan  I thank the Deputy. These are operational matters for Uisce \u00c9ireann but we have been making inquiries in relation to the issues the Deputy raised. I have been informed that works in Lusk have been undertaken between the junction to Hand's Lane and Minister's Road, along Minister's Road and Barrack Lane to the junction at Treen Hill and then Kelly Park. This is a targeted programme of works to strengthen the local water network at Kelly Park and Dun Emer in Lusk to replace old and fragile water mains. These works include laying new water service connections from the public water main in the road to customers' property boundaries and connecting it to the customers' water supply. The project began back in March and work is expected to be completed this summer.  Uisce \u00c9ireann tells us that very effort has been made to minimise disruption to residents and businesses during these works. Planned supply interruptions have been short in duration. However, the discovery of an undocumented branch off the water main led to unexpected interruptions. Further investigations are now required to map older sections of the network so that redundant sections of pipes can be closed off completely. Customers have been notified about this unavoidable disruption, which is essential to help Uisce \u00c9ireann to complete this important work to provide a more reliable and resilient water supply in the area.  A contractor liaison officer is now in regular contact with the early years services, including visiting the business on Monday in advance of a planned interruption today, Thursday. An Uisce \u00c9ireann area inspector has also been in contact with the business and understands that limited storage is available on site. Uisce \u00c9ireann is offering the cr\u00e8che owner the services of its first fix free scheme to establish if there is any leakage on the premises which may be affecting its storage capacity.  The Kelly Park and Dun Emer areas are residential areas and it would not be possible to schedule future outages in the evenings or overnight. There are three more outages required to close out the project and Uisce \u00c9ireann is working to put in place a detailed programme which can then be communicated to key stakeholders to give more advance notice than normal.  In regard to the correspondence we had on getting this question, the most frustrating piece is that where there are works going on, the communities do not know in advance. It can lead to huge frustration. I will take that back as well. There is no way that I can come in here and defend the lack of communication, which is basic. I will ask Uisce \u00c9ireann to look at other areas that could be looked at in respect of minimising the disruption, particularly to young people and young families. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-O'Donoghue.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Robert-O'Donoghue.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Robert O'Donoghue  I thank the Minister of State. I have seen the reference to undocumented branches. If pipes were put in 50 or 60 years ago, the mapping may not have been as good as it is today. I accept and understand that. I welcome that Uisce \u00c9ireann is engaging with the businesses but if it could speak to the two cr\u00e8che owners in particular, it would certainly alleviate some of the frustrations felt by the residents in the local area. I get that there is no ideal solution here but, as the Minister of State mentioned, what families are looking for is to minimise the disruption as much as possible, to alleviate the stress on working families and for Uisce \u00c9ireann to engage with the local communities and cr\u00e8ches as much as possible.  Before I finish up, I wish to welcome my former French teacher, Mr. Robin Gallagher, to the Gallery, and my ex-colleague in St. Joseph's Secondary School, the German teacher, Ms Anita Irwin, who is a big supporter of Europe Day every year. Like myself, she is probably looking forward to the EU Presidency. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Moynihan  It is great to see Deputies welcoming their former teachers to the Gallery. They are very welcome and I hope they are enjoying their trip to Leinster House today.  The investment is being put in to upgrade the pipe network. A lot of investigation has gone into the pipe network in this area, which is 50, 60 or possibly more years old. In a lot of the upgrading, particularly in urban Ireland, when Uisce \u00c9ireann digs down, it finds there are offshoots here and there. Then it finds that is where the leak is and why there was no water pressure.  There has been unscheduled work here. As I understand it, Uisce \u00c9ireann had communicated what it was doing and the timeframe it was doing it in. Now with the extra unscheduled work, there are more difficulties but I will relay back to it what the Deputy has asked with regard to the cr\u00e8che owners in particular. I will ensure there is full engagement with all the community. While Uisce \u00c9ireann is doing a major job in the area, it is important it would engage with all the businesses and householders in terms of leak reduction or anything else. Uisce \u00c9ireann is on site now and it should be using that time, fundamentally, to make sure the right things are done and we do not have to go back to it in the future. There was an added piece here and not just the original piece. However, families have had to make decisions on whether to take time off or take annual leave to take care of their children. That is hugely frustrating and it is not acceptable. As a matter of policy, Uisce \u00c9ireann, where disruptions are taking place, should always consider childcare facilities and schools to make sure they are communicated with in timely manner. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Water Supply"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_44","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Water Supply","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_40","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_40","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_44","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig O'Sullivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-O'Sullivan.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-O'Sullivan.D.2019-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig O'Sullivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-O'Sullivan.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-O'Sullivan.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy P\u00e1draig O'Sullivan  I realise this is the third Topical Issue out of five relating to Irish Water. I cannot say I am surprised, although they are different issues.  I feel obliged to come here this evening to relay the concerns of the residents of Courtbrack, outside Blarney. There is an issue happening with their water supply for some time. I have all of the emails here from Irish Water. There are pages and pages of them and it thanks me for my representation and hopes it has provided clarity and answered all the queries of the residents. Nothing could be further from the truth . Somewhere, buried beneath all of those pages, there are little bits of information. The reality here is people want to know when they will have a safe drinking water supply at home.  I know the Minister of State will be familiar with Courtbrack. People are spending \u20ac400,000 and \u20ac500,000 on new houses. They do not really have broadband. It is improving but it is still behind where it should be. You cannot get a phone signal except via the Internet, so it is a chicken-and-egg situation. There is light at the end of the tunnel with that because they have been told broadband will be provided by a certain period of time. They have absolutely no faith whatsoever in the service provision from Irish Water or when they will have a safe drinking water supply. They have been on a boil water notice for some time. I know the Minister of State will tell me in his response that it predates Irish Water and it inherited this. The key question I have is why in Christ's name did Irish Water take charge of this when it knew - I have it here in the various emails - the water plant was problematic? It is said it is below par and the conditions they would set. I do not understand why they would take charge of it and not compel the developer at the time to stump up before they took charge of it to improve the facility that was there. That is one thing I would like answered. I know the Minister of State probably does not have that answer.  I know the Minister of State has responsibility for special education and, God love him, he is in here answering questions about water. I know the statutory responsibility for the provision of water, be it operational, infrastructure or servicing, lies with Uisce \u00c9ireann and not with the Minister himself. I am not the first person to come in here cribbing about the quality of water or the conduct of Irish Water but there is a statutory obligation on it to provide water. If it is not meeting its statutory obligations, it is incumbent on the Minister to intervene.  That is not just in the case of Courtbrack - it is in dozens and dozens of locations across the country. I do not want to be parochial about it but in my own constituency, the wastewater situation in Carrignavar sees raw sewage seeping into the river. It is three times overloaded. We were told it would be seven to ten years, at best, before it gets an upgrade. There are big HGV lorries and tankers going through a new housing estate in Whitechurch just to service the existing requirement. Guess what? We will zone more land in the next development plan for more houses without having an adequate water supply in Whitechurch. Knockraha is an old chestnut of mine and is in my parish. I am totally despondent at this stage because it is happening for 15 years. Raw sewage is being pumped into a nearby landowner's field. Whether Irish Water likes it or not, it has a statutory responsibility. It is failing to adhere to that. If the State does not do it, I encourage people up and down the country to meet Irish Water in the courts and make sure it is responsible for enforcing that statutory obligation it has. I am sorry for the rant since the Minister of State has responsibility for special education but I get that he gets this frustration as well and not just from my part of the country. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Moynihan  I thank the Deputy. Three out of five of the Topical Issues have been about Irish Water. I know the Deputy has been talking about Courtbrack and other communities in his constituency for quite some time. In the correspondence we had in the past half hour or so, it covered three constituencies in Kildare, Dublin and Cork, so we can see the frustration of Members about Irish Water, the challenges that are being faced and how we will overcome them. Fundamentally, the availability of water and wastewater treatment plants is one of the most important resources we have to be able to develop further into the future. Over many decades, we have seen as a country the challenges with economic prosperity, but this is one of the key things. I am deviating from the question I was asked but I see the frustration of Members here today and the frustration of Members from across the country. I could turn back and talk about a number of communities I represent and the frustrations I have with it.  Irish Water is the statutory body. It has taken charge of this plant. As I understand it, the plant was taken over in January of this year and it was not fit for purpose. It was one of those developer-provided pieces of infrastructure going back a number of years. It is important that we understand the challenges that are there. They are on a boil water notice and the information I have is that, since taking over the operation, Uisce \u00c9ireann has been carrying out technical and detailed operational assessments of the plant to determine the works required to ensure a safe and secure water supply to enable the boil water notice to be lifted. Uisce \u00c9ireann has now completed the initial scoping work and the first phase of remedial works has now commenced on site. These works are focused on upgrading and improving the existing plant. Uisce \u00c9ireann expects to have greater clarity on timelines as these works progress. Once the outcome of this first phase of the remedial works is fully assessed, the impact will inform the need for any subsequent phases of work, if required, which will ultimately guide the approach to resolving the issues at the plant.  Given the importance of protecting public health, this process must be thorough and evidence-based. In parallel to these shorter-term improvement works, Uisce \u00c9ireann is also progressing the assessment of a longer term rationalisation option. This would provide a more permanent solution but is subject to all necessary planning, environmental and regulatory consenting processes. If the short-term works successfully address the issues at the plant, the need for this longer term project will be reviewed. The boil water notice remains in place and will continue until such time as it is safe to lift, based on the outcomes of the ongoing works. The assessment that Uisce \u00c9ireann is doing should be completed in a timely fashion so that we can move forward with confidence that the boil water notice can be lifted. There is a bigger issue with it as well. Even if the short-term issues are resolved, Uisce \u00c9ireann should not forget about the long-term issues either. I will relay the Deputy's frustration to both the Department and Uisce \u00c9ireann again and ask them to complete the remedial work in as short a timeframe as possible. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig O'Sullivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-O'Sullivan.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-O'Sullivan.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy P\u00e1draig O'Sullivan  I thank the Minister of State. That is more or less the same answer I got in all of these emails so it is not surprising. The Minister of State knows the score and I know the score. Most people here know the standard of responses we get from Irish Water. I do not think it is too much to ask on behalf of residents, especially if the Minister will make representations on this and I will talk to him myself about it, what specific remedial works are being referenced? The Minister of State read in the answer that Irish Water will carry out remedial works. Tell us what they are. Will it screen the water? Will it add more chemicals? Will it fix pipes? Will it lay new pipes? Is there a problem with manganese, like there is in other parts of the city? Tell us what specific interventions it is making because I received that broad strokes answer of it doing remedial works and scoping. but it is not telling us the fine detail of what it is doing, bit by bit. Irish Water is saying there are remedial works currently under way. Tell us when they will be done. When will we have a timeline for when that initial phase will be done? From what Irish Water is saying, it will see how successful the short-term interventions are. Depending on the degree of success, it might do another longer term intervention. Tell us what that is as well. Tell us what the criteria is. Tell us the standard. Tell us what the threshold is for making that decision.  Most fundamentally, Courtbrack is a lovely rural village to live. A lot of people have moved out there from the city in particular. They spent a lot of money on their houses. I have already outlined the deficit in services, but at the same time it is not too much to ask that the residents get direct updates from Irish Water. They are coming to representatives like me to get updates or they are approaching fellas as they see them who are doing these remedial works and they are getting little tidbits information when they need something. If you are without water for the best part of a year, the very least that Irish Water should be doing for those people is giving them clear information.  My final point is about the statutory requirement. This is happening in hundreds of locations across the country.  Whether they like it or not, or whether they were handed a mess or not, they have a statutory obligation and a need to come clean with that and to give people what they are entitled to, which is safe drinking water. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Moynihan  I thank the Deputy. He has heard all the official answers in relation to what is being done. What he needs to do is to have clear sight of what that is, what that means in simple English, what screening and what work is going on, what levels they have to reach, and what stage they are at. I will endeavour to get sight of the remedial works Uisce \u00c9ireann is doing and also what they are considering in the long term. Whatever about the remedial works that are to be done here, the long-term issues have to be put out as well for Courtbrack and all those communities. Irish Water is engaging now with the Courtbrack community and it should not be allowed take its sight off it. It should complete the work it is doing on the remedial work in getting the water fit to lift the boiled-water notice and then on top of that to come back and say what the project will be over the next while. It should not just long-finger it but make sure what it is in the short-term. The least we want is to have the water systems fit for purpose. I will endeavour to ask both the Department and Uisce \u00c9ireann for concise, direct and informative information in relation to what they are doing in Courtbrack, what the timelines are on it and when they hope they can reach those targets and timelines. I will endeavour to get that information for the Deputy from the Department and Uisce \u00c9ireann and forward it to him. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Water Supply"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_45","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Child Poverty","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_40","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_40","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_45","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Louise O'Reilly  I thank the Minister of State for being here to take this Topical Issue. It relates to the national child poverty target. Social Justice Ireland tells us that there are 211,150 children at risk of poverty. Crucially, this figure does not take account of the household spend on accommodation. Two adults working on a low income or the minimum wage do not earn enough to live decently, and neither can they bring their kids up on that money. The MESL report, which was out this morning, tells us that older children, aged 12 and older, in households headed by single adults have the greatest risk of deep income inadequacy if they are dependent on social welfare. This has been true consistently and we have heard it consistently. Single-adult households make up over half of the deep inadequacy cases. Households with one older child of 12 and over account for 94% of those cases. I do not need to tell the Minister of State that kids are expensive; we know this. People who are living in poverty or at risk of poverty are doing their best to try to manage but it is getting impossible for them. We know that the Department of Social Protection and the child poverty unit in the Department of the Taoiseach have chosen a figure to measure that does not include accommodation costs. When we compare poverty rates among renters without housing supports, before the impact of housing costs on their disposable income is taken into account, 20.5% are at risk of poverty. After housing costs, this becomes 42.6%. That is more than double. Even more worryingly, the 22% of supported renters in poverty jumps to 58% once housing costs are accounted for.  The Minister of State and I both know that direct cash transfers in the form of additional child benefit, or whatever way the Government wants to dress it up, have been recommended by the ESRI and others as the most effective way to reduce child poverty. Plain and simple, the Government did not commit enough money to the issue of child poverty to make serious progress towards its target. For years the targets have been set and we know they have been missed. The truth about child poverty exists in those homes where parents are earning but they are paying extortionate childcare rates, for really massive rents or their mortgage has increased, or they are forking out for devices, which are going far ahead of free school books. They are paying energy bills that are among the highest in Europe. I am interested to know what progress is being made to reach the Government's target, but I am also interested to know if it is interested in what the real picture is. The real picture exists when you take into account accommodation costs. If you do not take accommodation costs into account you are missing the picture and therefore will always miss the target. If you are not measuring it properly you will not be able to resolve it.  We know from the MESL report that home energy costs have risen by 24.9% in the last year and doubled since 2020. Home heating oil, included in the rural MESL basket, has risen by 72.4% in the last year. That is 186.8% compared to 2020. These are all really serious factors which are impacting. The Children's Rights Alliance tells us that between 24 and 25 there has been an increase in the proportion of individuals living in consistent poverty and experiencing food deprivation.  There is an awful lot of talk about a social media ban for children under 16 years of age and I am very concerned that this is acting as a distraction from what is really happening. There are kids who will fall through the cracks because the Government's target is based on figures that are not real figures because they do not take accommodation into account. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Moynihan  To take the last point first before I go into it. Not to take it in isolation, that is a completely separate issue. Reducing child poverty is a key aspect of Government policy. The Government has been working on this and understands it. In September 2025, the Government agreed a new target to reduce the child consistent poverty rate to 3% or less by 2030. While an ambitious target, in setting this rate, the Government was clear that no level of child poverty is acceptable, and this is reflected in the programme for Government. The Department of the Taoiseach's child poverty and well-being programme office continues to lead and drive this important work and break down silos across Government. It has developed a dashboard of indicators to complement this target and to measure child poverty across health, housing, education, early learning and other indicators.  As a developed economy, poverty in Ireland is measured on a relative rather than an absolute basis. A risk of poverty is assessed by comparing a person's income to the average income in society. As a relatively high-income country, this means that some households assessed as experiencing poverty in Ireland might not be considered so in other EU countries. Nevertheless, as we are committed to reducing poverty, it is important to retain this approach. Moreover, the consistent poverty measure that we use is unique to Ireland and captures those both at risk of relative poverty and who self-report deprivation.  The Government was pleased to see a reduction in the CSO Survey on Income and Living Conditions, SILC, 2025 rate of child consistent poverty, from 8.5% in 2024 to 7.8% in 2025. This reduction reflects the impact of Government measures to date. The SILC data has a time lag and is based on income from 2024. It therefore does not yet reflect the 2025 budget and the very significant budget 2026 measures. Despite this, we fully recognise that much more needs to be done to reduce child poverty and to deliver on our target by the end of 2030. This requires sustained cross-government investment and commitment over many years. Budget 2026 reflected this commitment, with \u20ac320 million allocated to the Department to address child poverty. Significant measures included record increases in the child support payment, higher working family payment thresholds, broader access to the fuel allowance and the back-to-school clothing and footwear allowance, and an expansion of the hot school meals programme. These build on important programmes already under way that work to reduce child poverty, such as free schoolbooks, free GP visit cards and early childhood supports. While existing targeted income supports, including the child support payment and the working family payment, are effective at tackling child poverty, the Department of Social Protection is exploring reforms to both the working age and the child income supports. A public consultation on this concluded recently.  Reflecting the need for a multidimensional approach, work continues right across Government in other key areas such as housing, employment, childcare, education and health to address child poverty. The Roadmap for Social Inclusion 2026-2030 outlines many of these actions, with the aim of achieving our target by the end of the decade. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Louise O'Reilly  I do not want to seem ungrateful for the Minister of State's reply but he has said things like, as a relatively high-income country, some households assessed as experiencing poverty in Ireland might not be considered so in other EU countries. They are not paying rent or buying groceries in any other EU country, are they? They are doing all that there. If they are in relative poverty, they are in relative poverty. There is no point telling them they would be well-off if they were living in Spain. They do not live there; they live here. As I said, I do not want to seem ungrateful for the reply but I personally would have been embarrassed to read that out.  The Minister of State referenced the SILC data and the time lag. That is important because these findings are based on incomes in 2024. We all know what happened in 2024. There was an election and, in the run-in to that election, there were energy supports and all sorts of other things. That is all gone now. When the SILC data catches up, it will reflect the fact that energy supports have been withdrawn and that people in this State are paying some of the highest energy prices in Europe. Moreover, families who are living in poverty are more likely to be on pay-as-you-go meters. I am sure the Minister of State sees this in his constituency office just as I do in mine. Those people are paying even higher rates. It is very expensive to be poor in this State.  The SILC data also does not include accommodation costs. That is huge. There are people on ordinary wages who work really hard. If we are making comparisons with other EU countries, in any other EU country, they would be able to expect to go on a holiday or to have a few bob on a Friday night. All of that is gone. They are just paying their rent. Their kids are paying the price for the Government's failure to act on child poverty. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Moynihan  The CSO surveys are hugely important as a basis on which to measure poverty. The investment the Government has made over the past number of budgets, not just those for 2024 and 2025 but also for 2026, and the social protection measures we have put in place, show that not just the Department of Social Protection but all Government Departments are very conscious of child poverty. We are very conscious of the long-term impacts on those children. We are trying to give them the best possible opportunity. You only get one childhood. My Department and Departments right across Government, particularly the Department of Social Protection, are making sure that we are investing as much as possible into capturing the reasons for child poverty. We are investing to make sure we are giving children the best possible opportunities.  The CSO documentation and the data we get through the survey on income and living conditions are hugely important in framing Government policy. This is driven from the Department of the Taoiseach to ensure we are doing everything that can be done across Government to tackle child poverty. I assure all Deputies in the House that we understand. We know that, when you meet parents and families who are experiencing child poverty, you can have all the statistics in the world but you need to be able to point to something that can get them from where they are to where they would like to be or to at least give them a roadmap. Everyone wants the best for their families. This is something that every one of us experiences. The Government is working extremely hard to tackle child poverty. We have seen reductions in the indicators over the last number of years. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Child Poverty"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_46","debateType":"topical","bill":null,"showAs":"Report of the Joint Committee on Disability Matters: Motion","counts":{"speechCount":17,"speakerCount":7},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_46","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maurice Quinlivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gillian Toole","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gillian-Toole.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Gillian-Toole.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jen Cummins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maurice Quinlivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Maurice Quinlivan  I move:  That D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann shall take note of the Report of the Joint Committee on Disability Matters entitled \"Report on Inclusive Education for Persons with Disabilities\", copies of which were laid before D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann on 25th March, 2026.  I welcome the opportunity to move this motion and to present the committee's report on inclusive education for persons with disabilities. I acknowledge the disabled learners, families, educators, representative organisations, service providers and other experts, especially Corpus Christi Primary School in my own constituency of Limerick city and St. James's Primary School in Dublin, who contributed to the committee's work. Their input was invaluable. Their lived experience, expertise and insights were central to the development of the report and its recommendations.  While reading the report, I encourage the Minister of State and his officials to look especially at the Sky is the Limit programme operating in Corpus Christi Primary School in Moyross in my constituency of Limerick city. The school both presented before the committee and hosted members of the committee at the school on the importance of this inclusive education project. The project aims to provide psychological support to members of the school community and the surrounding community, recognising that education does not end at the school gate. The programme embeds counselling, therapy and family support services within the school environment, thus allowing pupils and parents to access help that would otherwise be difficult for them to navigate. It is a model that could be looked at as part of needed changes to how we deal with the issue of special education. We cannot rinse and repeat the same tired and outdated approach to special educational needs. We need to do much better.  The community of Moyross has faced many challenges over the years, from organised crime and drug dealing to violent feuds and deprivation. The work community members have done, particularly in partnership with the local school, has turned the area into a thriving community with one of the best primary schools in Limerick, if not the best. I mention this just to highlight how important inclusive education is not just for children but for their teachers, their family members and the wider community.  On the report itself, the Joint Committee on Disability Matters undertook a comprehensive examination of inclusive education for persons with disabilities through a programme of public meetings, engagements with stakeholders and consideration of written submissions. The committee's work was guided by Article 24 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, which recognises the right of persons with disabilities to education without discrimination on the basis of equal opportunity. The committee considers inclusive education to be a fundamental rights issue. Inclusive education is not solely about where a child is educated. It is about ensuring that all learners can participate, communicate, belong and achieve their full potential within the education system.  The committee's 33 recommendations provide a practical roadmap towards a more inclusive education system. The committee heard that significant progress has been made in recent years through investment in special educational supports, special classes and additional teaching resources. However, witnesses also identified significant barriers that continue to impede the full realisation of inclusive education.  A recurring theme throughout the committee's engagement was the need to strengthen Ireland's legislative and policy framework so that it more fully reflects the principles and requirements of Article 24 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. The committee therefore recommends that legislation, policy and practice be reviewed and strengthened to support a rights-based approach to inclusive education to advance Ireland's obligations under the convention.  Witnesses emphasised that inclusive education is not solely about access to supports and services. It is also about ensuring that learners experience belonging, participation, dignity and respect within their schools and education communities. The committee heard that many families continue to experience difficulties accessing educational supports and services. Witnesses highlighted the importance of ensuring that supports are responsive to the needs of learners and are available in a timely and equitable manner. The committee recommends that access to supports become increasingly responsive to the needs of learners and less dependent on diagnostic labels alone.  The committee also heard significant evidence regarding workforce shortages across educational psychology, speech and language therapy, occupational therapy and other specialist services. Witnesses highlighted the impact these shortages can have on participation, communication, educational attainment and well-being. The committee, therefore, recommends the development of a national workforce plan to address staffing shortages and improve access to specialist supports.  The committee heard strong evidence regarding the importance of communication rights and access to appropriate communication supports. Particular attention was drawn to the experience of deaf learners, the implementation of the Irish Sign Language Act 2017 and the importance of ensuring access to Irish Sign Language and other communication supports, including augmentative and alternative communications. The committee recommends strengthening the implementation of communication rights and improved access to the supports necessary to enable learners to participate fully in education.  The committee also heard evidence regarding the importance of learner voice and participation in decision making. The committee emphasised that disabled learners should be supported to participate in decisions affecting their education and that their views should be taken into account in education planning and policy development.  Witnesses highlighted the benefit of inclusive education practices and school environments that are designed to accommodate diverse learners from the outset. The committee, therefore, recommended the further embedding of universal design for learning principles across teacher education, continued professional development and classroom practice. The committee heard evidence regarding the value of multidisciplinary working and the importance of closer collaboration between education, health and disability services. The committee recommended the expansion of initiatives, such as the in-school therapy support demonstration project and strengthened inter-agency co-ordination to support learners and families.  The committee also examined transitions between early years settings, primary education, post-primary education and further and higher education which were identified as particular points of vulnerability for learners with disabilities. The committee recommended improving planning, co-ordination and continuity of support during these transitions. The committee considered barriers experienced by disabled learners in further and higher education and recommended continued action to improve accessibility, participation and support across all stages of the education system. Evidence received by the committee highlighted concerns regarding the use of reduced timetables and the impact that such arrangements can have on educational participation. The committee recommended that reduced timetables should be used only in exceptional circumstances for the shortest possible period and subject to appropriate safeguards and oversight.  The committee also heard evidence regarding the need for stronger data collection and monitoring and accountability mechanisms to support evidence-based policymaking and measures progressing towards inclusion. The committee recommended improved collection and publication of data to support planning, transparency and accountability across the education system. A consistent message throughout the committee's work was that disabled people and their representative organisations must be involved in the development of policies that affect their lives. The committee, therefore, emphasised the importance of consultation and coproduction with disabled learners, families and disabled organisations in accordance with the principles of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities and the principle of \"nothing about us, without us\". The committee recognises that achieving inclusive education will require sustained implementation, co-ordination and accountability across government. The report, therefore, recommends a co-ordinated approach to implementation and involving the education, health and disability sectors. Progress will depend, not only education policy, but also on disability services, health support, transport, workforce planning and broader societal inclusion. The committee believes that the implementation of these recommendations will support the development of an education system in which all learners, regardless of their disability, are able to participate fully, achieve their potential and enjoy equal opportunities throughout their educational journey.  I look forward to other Members' contributions. I will come back in at the end of the debate. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Education and Youth (Deputy Michael Moynihan)  I express my gratitude to everyone and thank all the members of the joint committee for their work in preparing this report. I know full well the work that they are engaging with. As I was the chair of the committee in the previous D\u00e1il term, I am aware of the work, effort and preparation involved. I have watched a number of the committee's meetings over the past year or so. The dedication, commitment and the depth of knowledge within the committee is a joy to behold. The seriousness that members take their role as advocates in the committee for disability matters is hugely important. I congratulate each and every one of them for their input into it. It is one of the most important committees in the Houses of Oireachtas because one fifth of us now according to the various censuses have a disability of one type or another.  The committee is led by Mairead who had a huge influence. There is a great team on the disability committee. I thank them all for that. There are a number of issues that were raised in the report on inclusive education. In his opening remarks, the Chairman mentioned a school in his constituency in Limerick. If there is proper investment in education for people with additional needs or disabilities, they can flourish in all those settings. It is about how we pathway that to grow. Since my appointment to this role, I have taken on this role extremely seriously and I have worked with all stakeholders to ensure that we have the best possible education system.  A number of the points were made in the report regarding the transitions in education. In any child's life who has a disability when they enter preschool, go from preschool to primary school, then go to primary to post-primary and then onto adulthood, those key points are hugely important. In my engagement, not just as chair of the committee, but as a public representative for a number of years, families have been in contact with me. They are the key points or the key difficult moments in family's lives. It is important that we have the right resources in place there. Over the past week or so, I am pleased that we have secured additional funding, particularly on special schools, and there will be extra resources given to special schools to guide the students and their families as to what the future looks like when they leave the special school, whether it is into supported employment, day services or beyond. They are a hugely important piece in it.  If we compare September 2025 and September 2026, we will have close to 1,000 extra special classes opened across the country at primary and post-primary level. These classes did not just come about. A lot of work done by the Department, Deputy McEntee in her time in the Department, the Minister, Deputy Naughton, myself and the school communities over the past 12 months to bring this to fruition. With the engagement that the committee has had with school authorities and school communities, it is important to note that there is a huge openness across primary and post-primary schools to engage with specialised education and to improve and make sure that we have more inclusivity and classes within that. That is a work that is being done. We have also introduced the new inclusive special classes at post-primary and primary, which have been welcomed by the school communities. We have to embed them and ensure that we are doing the right thing.  The one thing that I constantly I push is that the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities is an overarching document with overarching reach. The optional protocol was one the issues that we addressed in our committee and to ensure it was signed during the term of the previous Government, which it was finally. It is only as good as how the Republic of Ireland will interpret that and ensure that we have the supports in place to ensure that every child matters and that every child that goes through education who has special educational needs has the best possible outcomes within the education system. I passionately believe that if we invest properly in special education, we will improve the life cycle of the individuals who has special educational needs and their families. We will also improve a variety of issues societally.. That is fundamental. As a country, we have invested hugely in education over the past 100 or so years, which has served us well. We have to ensure that we continue the level of engagement and support across the special education system to ensure that the best possible outcomes for children with disabilities.  Over the past five or six weeks, in five locations across the country, we met the principals of the special schools. We sat down with them for four or five hours on a Friday to see what the challenges are for them in their school communities, including what they, their teams, their leadership, teachers and SNAs face on a daily basis and to feed that back to ensure that we are doing the right thing. One of the big issues they were looking at was career guidance. What we have done is ensure that hours are provided across the special schools to support students and their families into the future.  We also worked extremely hard in relation the SNA workforce development plan, the workforce redeployment plan and the circular which will replace the 2014 circular. The 2026 circular has been brought out. It gives certainty to many thousands. This year alone, over 26,000 SNAs will be employed in the education system. That number will increase over the coming years. We are listening carefully to what is being said.  I was delighted to meet members of the committee in Liskennett recently. Everybody who was at the centre in Liskennett was really impressed with the service provided there and the ongoing work being done by St. Joseph's Foundation in Charleville. I congratulate the Joint Committee on Disability Matters on visiting the site to see the work being done at first hand. The service in question works with 80 schools across the region. It provides therapy sessions to special classes and special schools. It is an integral part of those classes and schools in the context of the wider community. On one of the days I was there, people had travelled from as far north as Ennistymon in County Clare, Limerick, Tipperary and beyond to get an hour or less of equine therapy. Such therapy is of huge benefit to the children. You could not but be impressed by the work ethic of the teams at Liskennett and by the services they provide for the children involved. It supplements and supports special classes and inclusive education.  We are starting inclusive special classes this year. Other countries tell us that they do not have special schools but that they have very inclusive models. Not every child, because of their needs, can meet the strict criteria. We have to have special schools, special classes and integrated classes across the system. Some practitioners in education have been extremely capable in pushing the boat out and challenging me and other policymakers as to the best next steps for education and how we can be more inclusive. We have been engaging thoroughly since I took up this role, for example, with the National Council for Special Education, and the work it does. Over the past number of years we have increased the number of special educational needs organisers, SENOs, from 60 to 120. There are now more SENOs who liaise with families to ensure that they make the best possible informed decisions for their children. Last year, we had the 51 recommendations regarding the Education for Persons with Special Educational Needs, EPSEN, Act. The latter was developed over 20 years ago and was reviewed in the context of how we make sure that we have the best possible education system and the next steps. I was Chair of the education committee 20 years ago when people were talking about mainstreaming and the challenges involved Education has evolved enormously in those 20 years for the better. We must now look at the next 20 years in the context of what is the right thing to do with the review of the EPSEN Act. The Government is holding a forum on special education and ensuring that the various stakeholders are talking about the next steps. We all have to understand that our schools are our future. It is important to ensure that we are engaging.  In every role across the education system, we see great practice. I could not but have been impressed by what has been done at Maynooth Community College. It reached out and set up a sports day for every special class in Leinster. Students in special classes in post-primary schools across Leinster were all invited to take part. I was there on the morning of the launch. No matter the challenges, you would have to be extremely impressed by the co-ordination involved, by the people in Maynooth Community College who were driving it in the first instance, by their understanding of the concept in having the special classes involved in their own day - all other students have their sports days - and by their energy, commitment and dedication. Those are some of the great practices.  When I was first appointed, people said we should look at best practice across different countries. We have a lot of very good practice in our education system, however. The challenge is to ensure that we replicate that best practice across the country. The committee's report speaks to the many challenges and issues we have to face up to across education, including teacher training, reduced timetables and exclusion, which is important at school level. I spoke about transition and inclusion. The Chair raised the issue of sign languages and co-ordination. We are best able to implement policy by collecting data and ensuring that we have the relevant data across the education system. Governance is also important.  I cannot but congratulate the committee unreservedly on its work. I appeal to all the members of the committee to continue with that work. If we continue to invest in specialised education as we are - one third of the budget is being spent on specialised education - in the years head we will see great benefits for the children, their families and wider society. I am delighted to accept this report. I encourage the committee to continue its work. It is hugely important. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Louise O'Reilly)  I also add my congratulations and thanks to the committee. It is a great committee and does fantastic work. I call Deputy Toole. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gillian Toole","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gillian-Toole.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Gillian-Toole.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Gillian Toole  I thank Deputy Quinlivan for chairing our committee so ably and for tolerating a lot of toing and froing and time overruns, but the purpose and spirit committee members brought to the task at hand is manifest in the report. I urge all Members of both Houses and officials in all Departments to pay special attention to it.  The report runs to 42 pages. Pages 9 to 11 are the key pages because they contain the 33 recommendations. None of our work would have been possible without the submissions, in-person attendance and work of the secretariat in the background, keeping us on the straight and narrow and providing research and guidance. We had contributions from special needs assistants, personal assistants, teachers, allied healthcare professionals, service providers at the coalface and the National Council of Special Education.  I appreciate that whole school communities have had quite a lot of turmoil and policy change to grapple with in recent years. They have risen to the challenge wholeheartedly and are producing fantastic results for our children and for our future, while trying to manage change in policy with finite resource and oft times very scarce resources. That places immense stress on the system.  They are then trying to co-ordinate communication with parents, linking in with the health sector, and linking in with all the different service providers that may be appropriate along the way. What has become evident, and it is manifest in Article 24 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, UNCRPD, is that the focus now has to be needs based and on the needs of the child, and not necessarily set in concrete in a diagnostic process. We are moving towards a change in that area. I am quite an impatient person so I suppose I am always thinking of what actions can we actually implement. We are part of a five-year cycle and I hope the recommendations in the report do not take the full term to achieve implementation. I will give an example of where action has come about quite quickly, and the Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan, referred to it. I visited St. Bernadette's in Letterkenny on Monday. My niece is on the staff there. Mr. Haran, the principal there, welcomed the recent funding for that transition piece from primary to secondary, and secondary to tertiary or to service provision. That is most welcome. The Minister of State is hitting the ground running so more would be most welcome.  The objective of Article 24 and the right that underpins all this is that all learners with disabilities can access an inclusive, high-quality education system with the appropriate supports, with reasonable accommodation, and without discrimination. The results in the report will address all that in succession. It is fair to say at this stage that national policy has evolved considerably. I cast my mind back to the time when I was a child and my mother was a primary school teacher in County Meath. When the bell rang, as kids all we wanted to do was get out, get into the car and go home. We did not quite understand why mam might have been the extra hour or even the extra hour and a half or two hours after school. What she was actually doing at that time was ad hoc support and assistance to children in her care who needed it. Cross check that with the current situation with the EPSEN Act, the review thereof and the recommendations, and things are moving in the right direction.  Again I refer to my impatience. What I would like to see, and I think the signs are good, is that the education, health and disability supports that are currently fragmented across regions and perhaps across schools and between individual children, will all move to a point where we have inter-agency co-ordination and we have joined-up working. That is essential. There is a task force within the Department of the Taoiseach. There is the Minister of State's Department of Education and Youth. We have the Department of Children, Equality and Disability. It is about more of those links.  I am being cheeky now but the Cathaoirleach of the Joint Committee on Disability Matters is here. I am jumping ahead but I would like to see more attendances at our committee meetings, either in public or in private session, so we are very much aware of what the different groups are doing and that we are all on the same page, so we can deliver outcomes for children as quickly as possible. I will refer to some of the points that witnesses have emphasised. The key starting point is that children's ability to learn and engage meaningfully in school is linked to emotional regulation, psychological safety, and access to timely therapeutic supports. The Minister of State referred to the Liskennett centre and the fantastic work being done there through the medium of equine assisted therapy. This is the type of approach that helps with regulation and helps with the release of oxytocin, which biochemically helps bring about calmness. When we have calmness and regulation, the channels open up for learning. The good work at Liskennett is being replicated at Clonalvy in County Meath with Joy Murray and at Stewarts Care in Kilcloon through Terri Brosnan and her team there. We wish to see more of that. I appreciate that officials are looking for an evidence base but I would like to flag something with the Minister of State that I noticed on social media, which is the Department of agriculture funded equine therapy and programmes that are available around the country for the children of farming communities who have additional needs. If the Department of agriculture can do it, perhaps we could see more of that provided through the Minister of State's Department. I am very happy to work with him on that.  Well-being supports are well proven to help sustain inclusion for students with complex needs. As referred to on page 25 of the report, there is a requirement for holistic, multidisciplinary, social and emotional supports. We had a fantastic visit to the Corpus Christi school in Limerick where we met with the team there. We had the team from St. James's primary school in to visit us. I have been to St. Bernadette's. We also have St. Mary's in County Meath. This is not to take away for one minute from the work that is being done in special classes. I would also like to commend the library services through the local authorities, in particular Meath County Council. Through the healthy Meath programme, it has have embraced well-being classes and story massage through Una Curran, who has also done this online with other local authorities. If colleagues would like information to that effect, I can pass on her details. There is a whole area referenced in the report on art and music therapy. I will bring one book to the attention of Members. The question arises of the evidence base and whether there is there an evidence base for all these integrated therapies. There is indeed and there is an excellent book called Art Cure: the Science of How the Arts Transform our Health . It is also very beneficial to elder care. I just wanted to flag that.  In the area of recruitment, I commend the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, Deputy Lawless, and the Minister of State, Deputy Harkin, on the move towards the increased college places for occupational therapists, speech and language therapists and students of psychology, and for the reforms that are coming in the area of education. These are most welcome. I will give a particular mention to Dunboyne College of Further Education, which is now linking in with Enable Ireland and with the HSE primary care teams.  To conclude, I would highly recommend all Members to please read the report. We refer to the area of personalised budgets and personal assistants minimally in the report but that is an area for future development. It underlies all our work on the committee. I will finish with a quotation from Dr. Margaret Mead, the famous American anthropologist. She had fantastic observations of the social norms of her day but they are very relevant at this point in time. The Minister of State made a similar comment this afternoon. Dr. Mead said, \"The solution to adult problems tomorrow depends in large measure upon the way our children grow up today.\" "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  I also commend Deputy Quinlivan, as committee Chair, the clerk to the committee and the committee secretariat who have done a huge amount of work.  I would like to tackle one of the issues Deputy Toole brought up. It is absolutely spurious to believe that anyone would have gone over time at the Joint Committee on Disability Matters and I would just like that recorded. I cannot imagine who she meant----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gillian Toole","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gillian-Toole.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Gillian-Toole.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Gillian Toole  I am looking at you. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  -----and neither can the Minister of State. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Moynihan  No. Certainly not. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  When we are talking about inclusive education we need to make sure that this is part of wider inclusivity. Deputy Quinlivan, two other members of the committee and I were lucky enough to be at the 19th Conference of States Parties to the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities on the 20th year of the UNCRPD. We dealt with a huge range of issues. It was everything from autism services for adults, to participation in sport right through to the role and impact of conflict on those with disabilities. I commend ambassador and permanent representative, Mr. Fergal Mythen, and the mission to the UN, whose guests we were, on what was a very worthwhile enterprise. We were doing this in the United Nations in New York when the regime in America is obviously putting extreme pressure on the United Nations and the whole idea of multilateralism and international law.  On some level it nearly makes it more important at this point in time.  The ethos across the board was about inclusivity and ensuring that those with disabilities could participate fully in every aspect of society. It was about mainstreaming, which is about supports and ensuring, as much possible when talking about education, that people with disabilities can play a full part in mainstream education if that suits. I understand that will be different for every person.  On universal design, whether we are talking about course content, capital projects and settings like this, it is about ensuring as much as possible that we facilitate as many as possible. We are talking about those with mobility issues, those who Deputy Quinlivan spoke about who have issues with hearing, those who have vision-related issues and those who are neurodivergent. We already know that this particular Chamber would suit almost none of them but that is what we need to be about. It is about universal design, mainstreaming and reasonable accommodation. In fairness, that means it has to be reasonable. While we will not always be able to facilitate everyone, the plan should be to facilitate as many as possible and then, if we need bespoke solutions for those with more challenging needs, we should be able to provide them.  I do not think I could continue on mentioning the NOW Group, that the Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach, Deputy O'Reilly, a number of others and I were lucky enough to meet earlier. It is a social enterprise group that is based in Dublin, Belfast and throughout. I think it has a place in the Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach's constituency. It was really worthwhile. No more than a lot of the interactions that the disability matters committee has had, we listened to people talking about their lived experience. We also dealt with the cost-of-living issue at the disability matters committee this week. I do not think I need to go into the absolute need for a cost-of-living payment and ensuring that it is for everybody, and not just those who are getting social protection payments based on their disability at present.  We met representatives from the Irish Wheelchair Association, Rehab and AsIAm. Conor Lynott and \u00c1ine Dunne, in particular, spoke about their cases in relation to housing but no more than the young people from the NOW Group, they spoke about getting jobs, and how we do not allow for all those transitions, be they the transitions from early childcare through to primary, post-primary and tertiary education, as well as the transition into work. There are those who are worried about losing their payments and those who are worried about losing a medical card, even if it is a number of years later. We could be talking about people who have significant health needs.  We also spoke about the issues that this State has to get better at in respect of facilitating the connection between industry, enterprise and these young people, who will be able to provide a real benefit to the economy and to these companies. In fairness, there was talk about how many companies are worried, have an element of trepidation and are unaware of the schemes that exist such as the wage subsidy scheme or the work and access programme. What also was pointed out to us is that those schemes are not fit for purpose. We must have a more comprehensive and holistic look at how we deal with disability.  When we talk about inclusive education, we all know the issues that exist. We could literally spend our entire time here talking about the issues facing those who are waiting for an assessment of need. We could talk about those who, even if they have an assessment, cannot get the necessary therapies. For all of the improvements there have been with regard to workforce planning, we know that we need the back-up of assistive technology.  When I am in these circumstances, I find it hard not to use the example that I know the best, which is our Turlough. I am sure that all the Members have heard me speak about him before. He is 17 and is autistic. He attends \u00d3 Fiaich Institute of Further Education. He attended St. Joseph's National School before that and as I have said previously, he has been facilitated no end. I often talk about speech and language therapy, SLT, and what I will say is that he, his family and the school all would have been better off had those therapies happened within a school setting and had we been involved. It would have been even better if we had assistive technology rather than photocopies - and I am not taking away from the quality of the SLT that was provided - but from the State's point of view, it is about getting the best bang for buck. It is also about getting the best bang for buck from Turlough's point of view - who is the person who definitely needs it - as well as ensuring that I and my wife, who does all the heavy lifting in relation to most of this, would also get the best benefit out of it. Children of his age have no issue or rather probably too many issues in relation to using screens but we can all see how it would work if we were talking about assistive technology and apps that back up best practice and which would also benefit teaching staff and SNAs.  Being from Limerick, Deputy Quinlivan could not but speak about the Corpus Christi Primary School. I also have to mention it. I was really taken with the principal, Tiernan O'Neill, and his staff. In fairness, I see it as nothing but an outlier school in relation to being at the absolute centre of the Moyross community but even beyond that, through fundraising it ensured that it had the supports that were required within that school setting. These are for all children and that is the idea of mainstreaming because we are talking about counselling and psychological services, along with SLT, OT and all those requirements that are needed.  We often speak about early intervention without actually delivering it. In a lot of cases, if we could give most children that early intervention, it would probably reduce those situations and circumstances that arise. From the State's point of view, that would be easier, quicker, faster and cheaper. From a budgetary point of view, it is an absolute win-win. It is about ensuring that we can deliver this. The report also deals with the reality of the fact that we do not have enough OTs, SLTs, or psychologists and while we need to do those pieces of work, there is far more that we need to do.  Deputy Toole spoke about how a lot of parents come to us and their issues are generally related to school, including reduced timetables. Some schools can be better than others depending on a number of factors. If there are staff changes and a particular SNA, teacher or SET leaves, it can change the dynamic within a school. Meltdowns can be very difficult to deal with but if strategies are employed, they can be reduced and are generally avoidable. I can speak from my own experience in this regard.  Along with Liskennett and equine therapy, I could not but mention Louth Disability Cycling Club. I also have to mention that Louth County Council and the HSE are coming on board to make it into something that is sustainable because that is beneficial to those people with disabilities who engage with it and their families. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Louise O'Reilly)  The Deputy's time is up. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  It is well up. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett  I commend Deputy Quinlivan and the committee on producing a very good report. I have not read it all yet, but I have read a fair bit of it and it seems like an important piece of work. Well done to them all. I am not a member of the committee but it is an important issue.  I have a particular reason I want to raise a specific issue with the Minister of State in relation to people's access to education and special needs assistance and I will get to it in a minute.  The starting point of the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities and the fact that equal access to education is a right for children regardless of disability or additional needs was brought into very sharp focus recently with the Government's move to reduce the number of special needs assistants in many schools and the explosion of anger from school communities that caused. The Government has responded to that explosion, but it highlights something that is terribly important, which is the need to listen to those who are impacted by our decisions and by whether the systems we have and the resources we allocate are adequate to actually ensure the quality we profess to try to achieve in terms of delivering equal access to education. What we learnt from school communities, parents, teachers and SNAs during the recent events is that the role of the SNA had massively evolved from when the 2014 circular, for example, was originally done up; that a sort of minimalist approach to the special needs resources that were needed for children was not adequate; that there had to be recognition of that evolution of the role of the SNA in providing social support, communication support and emotional support to children; and that a minimalist approach which led people to think they could reduce SNA support on spurious grounds failed to take on board the actual needs of children and the views and opinions of the SNAs, the parents and the school communities. It was a matter of listening to those directly affected. A \"nothing about us without us\" approach is terribly important in this regard.  It is in that context that I want to highlight to the Minister of State - I do not know whether he got an email about this - the situation, which may be impacting more broadly than the particular example I have come across, of the allocation of SNAs to children under IPAS, which is a different system. The Government, in the context of the recent protests and so on, promised that there would be no reductions in SNA supports for schools in September, but that has not come to pass in the case of the provision of SNAs for children from IPAS accommodation. They are in the same schools as other children, but it is a different system for allocating special needs supports. I was not aware of that, but this is where you learn from people on the front line, in this case from Holy Family National School, in Monkstown Farm, in my area. The way SNAs are allocated is that for every 15 IPAS students the school has you get a half-time SNA, half a post, for 16 hours. If, however, the number of IPAS students drops below that number, you lose that. That is what has happened to Holy Family National School. This happens even if the number drops only temporarily. In the case of the Holy Family, the school informs me and has informed the Department that the number has briefly dropped below the threshold of 15 but that it will go back up above the threshold in September. In the meantime, however, the school has had the half an SNA post withdrawn and it simply cannot cope with the impact of that. It does seem crazy to have a cliff edge of that sort. If you have 15 students, you get half an SNA post, but if you have 14, you get none, so you just go over a cliff. Then the school has to pick up the slack, and that will impact everything else in the school. An injury to one is literally an injury to all, and that is not fair. I ask, on behalf of Holy Family National School, all the children involved - the IPAS children and all the other children - and the teachers who will be impacted as a result of that, for that to be addressed and for the schools, please, to be heard.  It does speak more generally to something I think Simon Lewis said to me about the approach we have to have in ensuring inclusivity and in giving the necessary supports and resources to avoid a penny-pinching or box-ticking model that can end up not really doing justice to the actual human lived reality of children with disabilities or special needs. The way he put it, in literally one sentence, was that we have to trust schools, that we should just trust schools. There are so many buzzwords in all these documents, but I think that is what is referred to when we talk about rights-based and needs-based provision - that it is the actual needs that have to determine things, rather than ticking boxes or rationing resources, which is so often the case. That, I think, was at the back of the recent debacle in terms of the withdrawal of special needs supports for so many schools, causing panic and alarm in school communities across the country. We must recognise those on the front line: the parents, the teachers, the SNAs, the children themselves, the school communities. They can tell us what the needs are. They are the experts. They should be believed; they should not be distrusted. It should not be thought that they are trying to rip the Department off of resources. Their words should be accepted. That is not to say that very occasionally people might not look for things they do not need. By and large, however, people do not look for things they do not need, and there should not be an attitude at Department level that people are looking for things they do not deserve. It is when that attitude of gatekeeping comes in that we get problems.  In my last minute and a half I wish to mention a couple of things. When will the pilot project on providing therapies in schools be expanded to all schools? From what I hear, it is a storming success, and how could it not be? How could providing OTs, speech and language therapists and psychologists in schools not be a good thing? We do not really need to pilot any more. It is working. Let us just do it and roll it out and have a plan to get all these speech and language therapists, psychologists and----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Moynihan  In the new school year. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett  Excellent.  Can we also, then, have psychology departments in post-primary schools? That would be the next thing, something that has happened in many other schools. We know mental health issues are huge in terms of special needs, neurodivergence and so on but also just generally for young people. There should be, as there are in many other countries, psychology departments in every single school. That should be an aspiration for us in every school.  I agree with Deputy Toole's point about arts. When we talk about expanding the basic income for the arts scheme, we should develop a scheme to offer jobs to artists in every single school, whereby you get a decent, liveable income and you have time to practise your own art but also help bring art to children with special needs, disabilities and so on, and indeed to children generally in schools. That would be well worth investing in in every single school and would be an imperative to reach across the education system. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jen Cummins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jen Cummins  Congratulations to Deputy Quinlivan and everybody on the disability matters committee for this great document. I have read it. There is so much in it. It must have been a huge amount of work. It is very thorough. My colleague Deputy Liam Quaide is not able to speak today but he would love to have been able to do so.  One of the things that struck me with this report is that in schools, education and in this place, we often silo things. The disability matters committee has done a wonderful report. We in the education and youth committee are down in committee room 4 most weeks, and we are looking at inclusive education. It is imperative that these two pieces of work meet each other and that we do not stay siloed. This is not about maths, Irish or English in school. It is serious and is about people's lives. I would love to see what comes out of our report and how they speak to one another. They are independent pieces of work but I have no doubt there will be so many things that are similar between them.  The only difference is that ours will be for primary and secondary school and will not examine third level. That is the missing conversation that never happens in here. What happens for young people who go on to third level, whether to an apprenticeship or college or to any institution or course? The Disability Federation of Ireland has said that 25% of adults with disabilities have now completed third level in comparison to 32% of the general population. We are still not on a par. We need to ensure that tertiary education is as available as primary and secondary. It is not so easy. That conversation definitely needs to happen. I would love to see the further and higher education committee, which I attend although I am not a member, looking at the situation as well.  On education and children with disabilities, not a day goes by that somebody does not contact my office about the state of things. I just got off the phone with a mother where the school clearly does not want the child to be there. Deputy Boyd Barrett said to trust the schools but in this scenario I do not. This poor child has been ostracised. I am obviously not going to name them. There are examples of poor practice around the country because of lack of leadership and lack of challenges. We need to make sure that if this is the situation, it is called out. For the most part, schools are doing absolutely excellently. However, not every school is suitable for every single child. If that is the case, how do we make sure a child does not continue in an education setting that ruins them as an individual?  Separate to this, when I was a school completion co-ordinator, we had the iScoil programme. It is not for children with disabilities but for children who left school and were not in school for six months at a time. They would come to us broken, thinking they were stupid and thinking they were not able to learn anything. The system broke them because it did not understand them as individuals and their needs and rights. When they would come to us, we would have to build their confidence so they would know they are not stupid, and there is a place for them in this world and for every single person. We need to challenge that in every aspect of our education system at primary, secondary and third level, so nobody feels they are not able to be valued and have a place in that.  The systems in this world have to fit around people. People do not have to be jammed into a system that is wrong for them. That is so important, particularly for people with disabilities who already face so many challenges in other aspects of their lives. Over the course of being a TD, I have been struck by the different types of challenges that people have when they have a disability. For example, on reading, there are reading classes that are being closed, or are not open or are full, because they are not being invested in. The vision is to be inclusive so that the local school will be the inclusive school and children will just go to their local school. That is fantastic but in the meantime, until that is a reality, we need to be safeguarding those reading classes and making sure that children have access to that. There are children who are going on to second level who have not managed to access or get through the primary school curriculum. They are not able to read it because they have not been given the skills to do that. We are using programmes like Reading Recovery, which is being struck off in other countries, and we are investing a quarter of a million euro or more in it. We need to look at structured literacy and how that happens, and why it is effective in the long term for children.  While I am talking about books, I cannot ever forget about the young person who came to the education committee and told us that he got his Braille books the week before he was doing the leaving certificate, even though they were ordered in fourth year. I just cannot get over that. There is a system that shows an absolute breakdown for a child, that they would not have their books for the two years of studying the leaving certificate.  I have mentioned mild general learning disability schools so many times. I did not know they existed until I was a TD. Now I know. I have been at one and was at a beautiful graduation in Scoil Eoin in Crumlin last week. I was trying not to cry too much since it was not my children, but it was absolutely gorgeous. Those young people have left that school with their heads held so high, with absolute support, love and care. They are going to meet the world right where it is and will be able to do whatever they want in the future because of the care they got in that school. I know we want to have the local school being the inclusive school, but until that is an actual reality we cannot close those schools because those children will not get the same love and care in a school with 1,000 pupils. There is just no way they can. There is a balancing act. When we transition into the new system we would like to have, we need to make sure that until we are definitely able to deliver on that side, we do not put those children in jeopardy.  Today in the education committee the teacher and SNA unions were in. One of the challenges they have is the lack of time for planning. They do not just rock up on a Monday morning at 9 o'clock and decide what they are doing today. They have to have plans. That needs to be built in, particularly if they are supporting children with additional needs. It is about what needs to be done, when, what is the routine and who is doing what - all those things. That needs to be built in to the planning week, as does the overall view of how inclusive education is done in a school. It is the culture of a school and who manages it. When the principal is running around doing all the other things, who is the person who instils that culture in a school? The principal is that person but she or he cannot do everything. We need a way of making sure that culture is there in schools.  We also need to make sure for any school that is being opened, a special school or special class, that the training is there for those staff members. Teachers who are newly qualified or who are very long in the system are telling me time and again that they did learn anything about this in college, yet they are expected to go in and work with the child when they have no idea how to manage or do that. It is not good enough. We are failing the teacher or SNA and we are failing the child. We need to make sure that the training and CPD is there for the best chance for everybody in the situation.  I agree that it has to be rights-based and needs-based. It needs to be about fairness and equality, but also equity. We cannot give everybody the same because some people need more than others. There is a fine balance as to how we make sure that everybody gets exactly what is appropriate to them to make sure they are on an equal footing with everybody else. When I was visiting a school a very long time ago, I saw a lovely picture of children looking over a wall. You just saw their faces across the wall, but on the other side you saw children of different heights. Some were standing on a higher or lower ladder or stool, but they all looked the same from the other side of the wall. It was showing what equity is. Equity is to give people what they need in order for them to be on an equal footing with everybody else. That is not only for primary and secondary school but also for third level. Early intervention classes set children up to succeed in primary school. We cannot see them closed until we have proper alternatives in our primary schools. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Education and Youth (Deputy Michael Moynihan)  I thank the Members for their contributions. A number of issues were raised. It was remiss of me at the start not to talk about the education therapy services. We made a decision at Government back in March or April of 2025.  Some people said we would not be able to do it. This involves the whole of Government. It was a decision made at the Cabinet disability committee. The housing committee is the committee that meets the most, and the disability subcommittee is second.  A decision was taken to put therapies back into schools, starting with special schools and then rolling services out elsewhere. There are two elements to that. The first is recruitment. Thankfully we have had a successful recruitment process. Services will be clinically led by the NCSE and the structure is in place. Services are being rolled out in special schools.  The Department of further and higher education has examined expanding the amount of training and college places available for occupational therapists, speech and language therapists, behavioural therapists and other therapists. We cannot manufacture therapists; we have to train them through the system. We are working extensively across Government. We have increased capacity in third level colleges to ensure that we have an adequate number of occupational and speech and language therapists.  The other piece is that heretofore no block release was available for occupational therapy, in particular, for special schools in Ireland. A number of occupational therapists were being trained in college and were then going to block release in the UK or other jurisdictions. We know when people go on block release we lose a certain percentage of them. From this year, that is being addressed in special schools. Block release is available for education therapy services. This is a great enabler and will be significant for students who are going to special schools. We have to continue to monitor and work on that. I can report to the House that is being done.  There was a pilot scheme in 2024. The new scheme includes 45 schools and is a permanent scheme to provide therapies. It will be rolled out to over 140 schools. Over the past five years we have added another 20 special schools across the system because we need to build capacity in terms of education therapy. It will be a great enabler for the system.  The teams working in special schools are superhuman beings and are doing an amazing job. We have to encourage and understand them. That is why I reached out to all the principals over the past number of weeks and met them face-to-face. We will continue to examine schools that have embraced special classes, including inclusive special classes, with such great enthusiasm and excitement.  Across the Chamber I heard about the commitment and dedication to special education. I reflected on some of the reports we launched when I was chair of the committee. The level of commitment to special education and disability on the floor of the D\u00e1il is a joy to behold. People are well informed and see the challenges. We are dealing with a system that is evolving and we have to ensure that we are equipping the system not just for the short term but for the next decade and beyond. We spoke about the workforce development plan over the next decade or so. We have to ensure that we are equipping it for the next decade and beyond. The decisions that we make today are for the betterment of society.  I thank Members for their contributions. I engaged with all of those who contributed as best I could individually and collectively. I thank the Committee on Disability Matters for the work it does. I ask that it continue the good work and I look forward to going before it again in the not too distant future. The committee visited Liskennett in Limerick. The committee is a powerful body and the more it is out in communities and groups the more informed the Oireachtas is, so keep up the good work. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maurice Quinlivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Maurice Quinlivan  I thank the Minister of State for his kind and supportive comments for the committee and its members. It is much appreciated. I thank all of the members of the committee who contributed to the report, turned up to meetings, read all of the submissions, made suggestions, changes and amendments and helped us to deliver what I believe is a good report. I hope it will be accepted. I want to I record my thanks to the committee secretariat, ably led by Mairead O'Donovan and supported by Ronan O'Connor and Tracey Driscoll, who did a fantastic job in delivering the report.  Inclusive education, as I said, is not simply about access to school places but also participation, belonging, communications, achievement and equal opportunities. Last week, as Deputy \u00d3 Murch\u00fa said, members of the Committee on Disability Matters visited New York city to attend events around the application of the United Nations CRPD on its twentieth anniversary. The committee's recommendation provides a practical roadmap to advance inclusive education in Ireland, in line with Article 24 of the UN CRPD. I take this opportunity to thank ambassador Fergal Mythen and the team at Ireland's permanent mission to the UN for the fantastic support they gave the committee in terms of organising meetings and events and hosting meetings at the permanent mission across the road from the UN. The meetings were very useful and there were learning experiences for all of us.  I thank the members of the committee and committee secretariat for their work in developing the report and all of those who engaged with the committee throughout the process. The committee hopes that the recommendations contained in the report will assist in advancing an education system in which every learner is valued, supported and enabled to participate fully. I again thank everybody who contributed to the report. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an D\u00e1il ar athl\u00f3 ar 6.38 p.m. go dt\u00ed 2 p.m., D\u00e9 M\u00e1irt, an 23 Meitheamh 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The D\u00e1il adjourned at 6.38 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 23 June 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Report of the Joint Committee on Disability Matters: Motion"}]}}]},"contextDate":"2026-06-18"},{"debateRecord":{"house":{"showAs":"27th Seanad","committeeCode":"","houseCode":"seanad","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/house\/seanad\/27","chamberType":"house","houseNo":"27"},"chamber":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/def\/house\/seanad","showAs":"Seanad \u00c9ireann"},"lastUpdated":"2026-06-23T18:13:25+00:00","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-18\/debate\/main","formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-18\/debate\/mul@\/main.xml"},"pdf":null},"date":"2026-06-18","counts":{"contributorCount":27,"divisionCount":0,"debateSectionCount":10,"questionCount":0,"billCount":1},"debateType":"debate","debateSections":[{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_2","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Teachtaireachta\u00ed \u00f3n D\u00e1il - Messages from D\u00e1il","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann has passed the Finance Bill 2026 on 17 June 2026, which is sent herewith to Seanad \u00c9ireann for its recommendations. D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann has passed the Insurance (Disregard of Certain Medical History and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2025, changed from the Central Bank (Amendment) Bill 2025, on 17 June 2026 to which the agreement of Seanad \u00c9ireann is desired. D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann has agreed on 17 June 2026 to the amendments made by Seanad \u00c9ireann to the Microenterprise Loan Fund (Amendment) Bill 2024. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Teachtaireachta\u00ed \u00f3n D\u00e1il - Messages from D\u00e1il"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_3","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Gn\u00f3 an tSeanaid - Business of Seanad","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  I have received notice from the following Senators that they propose to raise the following matters:  Senator Chris Andrews - The need for the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine to make a statement on capping the number of breeding females permitted within a dog breeding establishment.  Senator Martin Conway - The need for the Minister for Health to provide an update on the timeline for a dialysis service to be operational in Ennis, County Clare.  Senator Maria McCormack - The need for the Minister for Education and Youth to make a statement on funding for STEM engagement officers in Laois and the midlands.  Senator Alison Comyn - The need for the Minister for Defence to make a statement on examining Drogheda, County Louth as a location for the proposed new Naval Service base.  Senator Joanne Collins - The need for the Minister for Children, Disability and Equality to make a statement on core funding for the childcare sector and the recent reduction in childcare rates.  The matters raised by the Senators are suitable for discussion and the Cathaoirleach has selected Senators Andrews, Martin Conway, McCormack and Comyn and they will be taken now. Senator Collins may give notice on another day of the matter that she wishes to raise. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Gn\u00f3 an tSeanaid - Business of Seanad"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_4","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_4","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  The Minister, Deputy Heydon, is very welcome. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_5","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Animal Welfare","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_4","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_4","showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_5","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Heydon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Heydon.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Martin-Heydon.D.2011-03-09","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  I thank the Minister for coming in. I welcome that the Department of agriculture has published a draft general scheme of a Bill to amend the Dog Breeding Establishments Act 2010. Ireland is the puppy farm capital of Europe and this is obviously nothing to be proud of. Nearly six years since policy change in this area was first considered by Fine Gael and Fianna F\u00e1il, this is the first meaningful legislative contribution that has been made.  The Bill is intended to introduce long-awaited measures regarding breeding practices, sales regulations and enforcement powers. That is very welcome. The most significant oversight though is the complete absence of a cap on the number of breeding females permitted within a dog breeding establishment. Without such a cap Ireland risks continuing its long-standing international reputation for industrial-scale puppy farms. Once again, we appear to be legislating in a way that accommodates and legitimises industrial-scale breeding operations rather than phasing them out and clamping down on them. There is no place in a modern animal welfare framework for puppy farms and any meaningful amendment of the Dog Breeding Establishments Act should begin the work of dismantling this model rather than entrenching it. We currently have multiple licensed dog breeding establishments authorised to keep hundreds of breeding females. These figures do not even include the pups or stud dogs. These breeding females do not have lives worth living. There is also very little transparency regarding the lives and treatment of stud dogs.  We are increasingly aware of the serious welfare and behavioural issues experienced by pups bred in these environments. Welfare cannot meaningfully be regulated at these scales, regardless of how robust the legislative language is on paper. Without a significantly low cap on breeding females, these reforms risking being entirely ineffective. I would be grateful if the Minister would clarify this issue and state whether the Government intends to put in a meaningful cap on the number of breeding females and therefore the scale of breeding establishments. I would also be very grateful if the Minister would clarify whether the public consultation responses or the dog control stakeholder group suggested including a cap and if so, why these recommendations were ignored.  I mentioned we are the puppy farm capital of Europe. Most puppies are sold through a website called dogs.ie . DoneDeal and Gumtree stopped selling them, as did most online sales platforms. Some 25,770 dogs and puppies were advertised on dogs.ie last year and every puppy farmer in Ireland trades on that site. The site facilitates puppy farms and it may be legal but I believe it should not be because it facilitates the puppy farms. If you use dogs.ie to buy a dog you can be 99.9% you are buying a puppy farm dog. It is something we need to address within legislation because clearly the facilitation by dogs.ie of puppy farms is not acceptable and we have to do something about it. We must ensure there is a cap and that any legislation that is put in place is effective, enforced and ensures animal welfare and dog welfare is prioritised. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Heydon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Heydon.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Martin-Heydon.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine (Deputy Martin Heydon)  I thank Senator Andrews for raising this point. It is something I am deeply passionate about. Reform of the legislation governing dog welfare is a key priority for me and for the Government.  In order to bring a coherent approach to dog control, policy and legislative responsibility under both the Control of Dogs Act 1986 and the Dog Breeding Establishments Act 2010 transferred to my Department last year as part of our programme for Government commitments. In both cases, local authorities retain responsibility for operational and enforcement matters.  I am pleased to confirm the dog breeding establishments (amendment) Bill 2026 is being actively progressed. The Bill has 17 heads and addresses three broad areas, namely, welfare and breeding standards, sales and record keeping and administration and enforcement. I brought the heads of Bill to Cabinet and received approval to go ahead and draft the full legislation. On welfare and breeding standards, the Bill will place enhanced duties on operators covering the socialisation and habituation of dogs.  It will introduce a four-litter lifetime limit and a one-litter-per-year cap, set minimum and maximum breeding age limits, prohibit the mating of bitches that have had two prior Caesarean sections and introduce a ban on in-breeding, which people might presume already exists in legislation but does not. We will also outlaw that awful practice. In response to the Senator\u2019s earlier point, this is about ensuring the legislation is robust. I also have to work to make sure any current or future legislation is properly enforced. A mandatory minimum staffing ratio of one full-time equivalent staff member per 20 breeding females will also be placed on a statutory footing, with a two-year transition period to allow operators to adjust in a timely and responsible manner.  The Bill will ban third-party sales from dog breeding establishments. This goes to the point the Senator made about people buying dogs online. I have heard anecdotal stories of people with their much-loved family pet and when you ask them how they acquired it and where they got it, they will say they met somebody in a public car park somewhere and they paid for that puppy. However, they had no sense of where that puppy had been bred, what the conditions were like, what the mother of that dog was, whether she was put straight back into pup and the likes. Under the new legislation, it will be unlawful for operators to sell dogs under eight weeks of age or to sell them from any premises other than where they were born and reared. Prior to any sale, prospective buyers must be shown the pup\u2019s biological mother on site.  This is a really practical and a seismic change because there are a lot of people out there who passionately believe in this legislation, love their family dog but do not know where their puppy came from and probably do not want to know. If we make the process that they have to go and see where it is, that will make a very significant change in people who have happily turned a blind eye just to get that much-loved family pet. We need to reflect on that and we need to reflect on the role charities and others can play. There is a significant role here that many other well-structured organisations can offer dogs and much-loved family pets for future operation as well. Those who carry out dog breeding properly and well will have nothing to fear from this legislation because it puts them on a firm footing, puts a proper structure in place and takes away the veil that has hung over the whole process to date.  On administration and enforcement, authorised officers will be granted new powers to seize and detain dogs where it is reasonably suspected that an offence has been committed. Penalties for the most serious offences will be significantly increased, with fines of up \u20ac250,000 and-or five years imprisonment, bringing sanctions under the 2010 Act in line with those available under the Animal Health and Welfare Act 2013.  I have not included a hard legislative cap on the total number of breeding females at a dog breeding establishment in the present draft heads of Bill, which is what we are currently dealing with. Legal advice indicates that there are difficulties with such an approach. There are also practical issues that would have to be explored further. An establishment can in principle increase in size and staffing to accommodate more animals without necessarily affecting welfare outcomes. My Department will engage with the Office of the Attorney General to explore the question of a cap further during the formal drafting stage and it has not been ruled out. This is draft legislation that will go through all Stages in the D\u00e1il and Seanad. There is a long process for this to go through. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  This legislation is very important and welcome. However, without a cap it will undo everything positive. It will legitimise and entrench puppy farms. It will be really disappointing if there is not a cap on that. What legal reasons are given for not including a cap? Is there a timeframe in which legislation will be drafted and brought before the Oireachtas because it can go on for quite a while? Did the public consultation responses or the dog control stakeholder groups suggest including a cap? If they did, why was it ignored? What were the legal reasons for ignoring it if they suggested putting a cap in place? A cap is critical to this.  The Minister mentioned 20 breeding female dogs on a site. That is just not right. Animal welfare cannot be done properly with 20 breeding females on one site. It is open to criminality and corruption as it currently stands and we need to clamp down. Has the Minister considered addressing the issues with websites such as dogs.ie , which are facilitating puppy farms and facilitating the deplorable conditions dogs are being kept in day in and day out? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Heydon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Heydon.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Martin-Heydon.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Martin Heydon  Obviously, I am in the hands of the Oireachtas on the timing of the legislation. There will be pre-legislative scrutiny through the agriculture committee where members will be able to have their say. The Chair of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Agriculture and Food, Deputy Aindrias Moynihan, is working with me to have that fast-tracked and take place before the summer recess with legislation to be introduced early in the autumn. I am determined to deliver on this very quickly.  The Bill addresses concerns about excessive numbers through many means. The Senator referenced the cap. When talking about the 20 dogs, that is the staffing ratio that will come into place; it does not exist at the minute. There is no staffing ratio for the number of staff per breeding animals. The mandatory staffing ratio will be 1:20. That creates an indirect but real constraint on establishment size. The Senator is talking about capping and, as I said, there is a whole legislative process to go through here. What is the size of the premises? Are we talking about a garage or a warehouse? What is the appropriate number of dogs in each of them? The cap is quite a crude instrument in itself. There are many constraints in this proposed legislation that do not exist at the minute. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  What was the legal element? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Heydon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Heydon.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Martin-Heydon.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Martin Heydon  The strengthened improvement notice regime will explicitly empower authorised officers to require a reduction in the number of dogs on premises where welfare concerns arise. Local authorities also retain the ability to set conditions on the number of breeding females as part of the registration process and this avenue remains open to them, particularly in respect of new applications. It is about putting best practice into place.  While non-statutory guidelines for dog breeding establishments were published in 2018, these set out advisory best practices but were not legally binding. That has been the big challenge here. Several of the amendments proposed by the Bill will now give legislative force to recommendations contained in those guidelines, which is a significant step forward. I look forward to bringing in this legislation soon and I have no doubt we will have many opportunities throughout all Stages of that legislation to discuss it here in the Seanad, in the D\u00e1il and in the committee. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Animal Welfare"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_6","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Education Policy","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_4","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_4","showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_6","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria McCormack","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-McCormack.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Maria-McCormack.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Chris Andrews)  I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Michael Moynihan, for joining us. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria McCormack","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-McCormack.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Maria-McCormack.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Maria McCormack  I thank the Minister of State for coming to the House which gives me a chance to discuss this issue. I am delighted that this Commencement matter has finally been accepted at the fourth time of asking. I am raising an issue relating to STEM funding. I raised this issue following growing concerns across County Laois and the midlands regarding the future of the STEM education programme and in particular the funding of the STEM engagement officer role.  A few weeks ago, we were all celebrating the incredible success of the Rosenallis National School robotics team which represented Ireland at the VEX Robotics World Championship in Missouri. These were pupils from a small rural school in County Laois competing on the world stage and making their community enormously proud. While we celebrate their achievement, the very supports that helped make that possible are now facing an uncertain future.  In recent months, I have been contacted by schools, teachers and parents who are deeply concerned about what will happen if funding for the STEM engagement officer role is not continued. One letter in particular from The Swan National School, which is a three-teacher rural school with just 29 pupils, really struck me. They described how difficult it was to fully capture the impact the programme had on their school community. They spoke about the skills gained by the pupils, the enthusiasm for learning, the confidence built through teamwork and problem-solving and the excitement visible on children's faces as they experienced both success and setbacks together. This is what education should be about. I know this is an area the Minister of State is passionate about as well.  What also stood out to me was the school's observation that while team sports receive significant funding and support, they do not appeal to every child. Programmes like VEX Robotics provide another avenue for children to experience teamwork, achievement and belonging. Laois does not have any university campus providing ongoing STEM outreach and support. Schools in County Laois rely heavily on initiatives under different funding models to ensure children have access to opportunities that children elsewhere may take for granted.  During the recent national conference on education, children from schools across Laois identified VEX Robotics as one of the reasons they enjoy coming to school. Let that sit for a minute. At a time when we are hearing about attendance challenges and student well-being, children themselves are telling us that these programmes make school more enjoyable and meaningful. Surely we should be listening to that. Investment in STEM education is not simply an investment in schools; it is an investment in the future workforce, future employment and future economic development of Laois and the midlands region. Under the Just Transition Fund, four midlands counties, namely, Laois, Offaly, Westmeath and Longford, received \u20ac100,000 worth of equipment to roll out STEM engagement programmes. Nearly 5,500 students have benefited from STEM activities and equipment across four midland counties, with County Laois making up for one third of that number. This funding has now ended. I am asking the Minister of State to provide clarity on the future of the STEM engagement officer role and the STEM projects that were funded under this initiative; outline what discussions are taking place regarding replacing the fund; and, most importantly, ensure that the opportunities currently available to those children across Laois and the midlands are not lost. We should be building on the success of these projects and not allowing them to disappear. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Education and Youth (Deputy Michael Moynihan)  I thank the Senator very much. I welcome the opportunity to address Seanad \u00c9ireann.  The promotion of STEM and digital learning within our education system is a key priority in the Department. This is reflected in multiple strategy documents, such as the STEM Education Policy statement, Digital Strategy for Schools to 2027 and Ireland\u2019s Literacy, Numeracy and Digital Literacy Strategy 2024-2033: Every Learner from Birth to Young Adulthood.  STEM stretches across all aspects of today's world and the innovation that emerges from these fields underpins much of the economic development leading to the establishment of creative, enterprising and rewarding careers. Our education system plays a key role in encouraging and equipping learners with the knowledge, skills and basics to effect these changes. The goal is to ensure all learners, whether they are male, female or from whatever gender background, have access to high-quality STEM learning that prepares them for success in the modern world. It supports children's capacity to understand and engage fully with the world around them and enables them to benefit from learning about and working with traditional, contemporary and emerging technologies.  I commend the work being done by the STEM project co-ordinators in the midlands regional positions that were funded under the EU just transition programme. I listened carefully to the comments the Senator made in relation to The Swan National School and others. I know the engagement is there and has been transformative. I understand the points she made in relation to teambuilding for all students. The positions were funded under the EU Just Transition Fund and the Department of Education and Youth has no role in it. The Senator will appreciate that the Department receives many requests in relation to support funding for initiatives, projects, resources, books, etc. Given the range of funding already provided, the Department is not in a position to replace this funding. However, I will undertake to go back and engage with this to see if there is a way. The Department will not be able to do so; it was funded under the just transition fund. We will engage and possibly come back to the Senator with some clarity on it.  Under the STEM Education Policy Statement 2017-2026, the Department continues to provide support for STEM, including the STEM-related curriculum reform; ongoing provision of STEM professional development; guidelines for STEM partnerships between schools and businesses and industry; partnership with Research Ireland to support education and public engagement projects in STEM; and ongoing support of informal STEM education projects, such as the Young Scientist Technology Exhibition, Science Blast and iWish. These initiatives inspire thousands of learners each year and help to promote creative problem-solving and teamwork in a fun and engaging way. I take the point that the Senator made in relation to teamwork. There are many facets of teamwork, not just in sport but right across the system. I take that point very seriously. The Department has been in correspondence with the local authorities concerned and has outlined how there may be other possibilities of funding elsewhere. The STEM Education Policy Statement 2017-2026 makes it clear that STEM learning is not limited to schools. It happens in a variety of spaces such as homes, museums, coding workshops and workplaces. Inclusivity is also a core principle underpinning the Department's education strategy and the policy statement highlights the importance of broad, accessible learning experiences across all settings.  I will come back to the Senator with some final comments. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria McCormack","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-McCormack.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Maria-McCormack.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Maria McCormack  I thank the Minister of State. He has made the case for the benefits of the STEM education programme even more clear from his remarks. The benefits it has for students are absolutely fantastic. I have to say, however, there would be an awful lot of students, teachers and parents absolutely devastated across the midlands if this funding were not due to be replaced with something else. I am asking - pleading, really - that the Minister of State goes back to the drawing board on this one and tries to see whether there is a different avenue. We do not have the facilities other big counties have. We are a very rural county, and the midlands gets neglected in a lot of areas. This is an area in which we are thriving. This school went to the world robotics competition in Missouri and won an award. We have to try to protect this. It is a very small amount of money if we look into the figures for the STEM engagement officer role for Laois County Council; I am asking, please. We are having a civic reception for this fantastic robotics team in Laois County Council tonight. The Minister of State is welcome to come along to see these amazing students. I ask him to try to find a solution. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Moynihan  I wish them the very best of good luck. It is a huge achievement on the robotics competition in Missouri as well. Unfortunately, I will not be able to attend the civic reception this evening but the Senator might convey my congratulations to all concerned, particularly the students.  Inclusive education is all about ensuring that everybody's strengths are being harnessed within the education system and encouraging students across all levels. Education is the great enabler, both at primary and post-primary school, to give people confidence into adulthood and into life. Many comments are made in relation to our education system. Our education system is world class and has been very successful; it is a great enabler. This is a hugely inclusive piece as well. I will reflect on it. It falls under the just transition fund, but we will go back to see if there is any other source to which we could direct it. I wish the Senator's school and, indeed, everybody else who is involved in it the very best. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Education Policy"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_7","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Health Services","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_4","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_4","showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_7","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Conway","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Conway.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Martin-Conway.S.2011-05-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Conway","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Conway.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Martin-Conway.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Martin Conway  I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan. This is a very important issue for people who require dialysis in County Clare. It is one that I have raised in the House on a number of occasions. People who need dialysis two, three or four times a week in west Clare and north Clare have to travel to Limerick. If you live in Kilrush, it is the bones of an hour to go into Ennis and then it is at least another half an hour into Limerick, depending on the time of day and the traffic. That is an hour and a half into Limerick and an hour and a half home in the evening three to four times a week. For a long time it has been proposed that there would be a satellite dialysis clinic based in Ennis. It was promised a number of years ago and it was supposed to open in 2023. It was also supposed to open in 2024 and then in 2025. Now we are told it will open by December 2026. Am I convinced? No, simply because the timelines have been broken time and again. My understanding is that there is space in a unit for this facility. I understand companies are prepared to tender for a contract to do the work, which I think is outsourced. I also know that there are dozens of patients who need it, who require dialysis multiple times a week.  A policy decision has been made by the HSE to open a satellite clinic in Ennis, there are patients who require it and there is space to provide it. For the life of me I cannot understand the reason for the delay, which is causing huge concern and stress and impacting on the quality of life of people who are vulnerable and need support. Sometimes it is unavoidable when these things happen, but in this case it is avoidable and it should not be tolerated. I know of a couple of cases where community hospitals have been in a position to take dialysis patients because of the geographical challenges and difficulties. My question is simple. Will the Minister of State affirm a date here this morning as to when the satellite dialysis unit will be up and running in Ennis so that vulnerable patients and dialysis users in County Clare can benefit from it and avoid and eliminate unnecessary and very pressurised and life-impacting travel? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Moynihan  I thank Senator Conway very much for the opportunity to address the House today on an issue I know is of real and ongoing importance to the people of County Clare and the wider mid-west. I am taking this Commencement on behalf of the Minister for Health, Deputy Carroll MacNeill.  At the outset, I reassure the Senator that the Government is fully committed to improving patient services and delivering patient-centred care that truly meets the needs of patients and their families. That commitment is reflected in the significant level of new resources that have been invested in the HSE in recent years.  Investment in the hospitals in the mid-west has increased from \u20ac370 million in 2019 to \u20ac763 million in 2025. That includes Ennis Hospital and University Hospital Limerick, UHL. This investment is already making a real difference for a large number of patients accessing care, and it will support the hospitals in the region to continue expanding and improving the services they provide. In terms of the haemodialysis services in the region, the HSE has advised that patients from County Clare are currently treated either in UHL or in the hospital's satellite centre in the Dock Road in Limerick city. Haemodialysis is a life-sustaining treatment. However, we cannot underestimate the toll it takes, for dialysis patients and their loved ones, travelling to treatment several times a week, often for hours on end. It is extremely demanding.  The national renal office has highlighted a significant growth in demand for haemodialysis services in the mid-west, with a 66% increase in demand between 2010 and 2020. More recently in 2025, 150 of the 414 patients who attended dialysis in UHL were residents of County Clare. Work is under way to progress the development of a haemodialysis unit in Ennis, which I understand will provide 120 treatment slots per week. The HSE has advised that this unit is expected to become operational in the fourth quarter of 2026. This is a very welcome development for the people of County Clare using those services. It will also help to ease pressures on the renal department at University Hospital Limerick as well as the satellite unit on the Dock Road in Limerick. It also reflects the direction set out in the national strategy for renal services and is in keeping with the Sl\u00e1intecare goal of delivering more care closer to people's homes.  I assure the Senator that the Minister for Health fully recognises the importance of expanding haemodialysis options in the mid-west. This additional capacity will make a meaningful difference for patients and their families across the entire region. The Minister, and the entire Government, continue to engage closely with the HSE to ensure it is supported in delivering high-quality healthcare services for the people of the mid-west. I accept the challenges and issues Senator Conway raises. It is hugely important that we understand the challenges for people who are undergoing dialysis and the long distances they have to travel several times a week. It is not just on a once-off basis. They are travelling long distances to Limerick. The HSE and the Government are fully committed to the unit in Ennis. I will take the Senator's concern back to the Minister, Deputy Carroll MacNeill. I also assure the Deputy that the HSE and the Government will continue to monitor this to ensure there is a speedy delivery of the unit, which would free up the services within Limerick but also give greater access to services for the people of County Clare closer to their homes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Conway","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Conway.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Martin-Conway.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Martin Conway  I acknowledge the sincerity of the Minister of State's reply. Yet another timeline has been set down. I will hold the Department and the Minister to account on it. We are allowed to table Commencement matters every six months. I sincerely hope that, next December, I am not tabling a similar motion and that we will have the unit up and running.  I acknowledge what the Minister of State has said, that there has been enormous progress in healthcare in the mid-west, an area in which there was underinvestment for decades. That is welcome. When services are not needed in Limerick and when they can be provided in places like Ennis, to everyone's benefit, everything should be done to make sure that happens because it reduces pressure on a hospital that is already way over capacity. I thank the Minister of State for the reply. I am sure the 150-odd people availing of dialysis several times a week will take some solace from the reference to the fourth quarter. I hope it is October as opposed to December. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Moynihan  I thank the Senator. As he will know quite well, I am very familiar with County Clare. We have had the benefit of holidaying in County Clare for many years. What a beautiful part of the world.  I also know the distance from west Clare and north Clare to Limerick and to Ennis, so I know the distance people are travelling. I come from a rural area myself so I know the imposition on families and patients and the challenges for long-term commuting several times a week. I accept Senator Conway's point. There was a reference in my opening remarks to the fourth quarter of 2026. I will engage further with the Minister, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, on it and with the HSE to ensure that happens and that the date that has been given will be achieved. We take it very seriously as it is hugely important. The closer the treatment to people's homes, the better outcomes we have for people in the long term. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Conway","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Conway.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Martin-Conway.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Martin Conway  I look forward to welcoming the Minister of State back to Ennistymon again in July. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Health Services"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_8","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Ports Policy","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_4","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_4","showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alison Comyn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alison Comyn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alison Comyn  I have spoken to the Minister, Deputy McEntee, about this in person. I thank the Minister of State for taking the time to come to the House today to discuss what may, at first glance, seem an unconventional proposal, but I urge him to hear me out. It is one I believe warrants serious consideration.  In recent days when I have mentioned the possibility of a maritime or naval facility in Drogheda, some people have pointed to the tidal nature of the River Boyne, navigational constraints and the challenges associated with accommodating larger vessels. They are legitimate considerations and should not be dismissed. However, there is increasing discussion about the future development of Bremore as a deepwater port and the gradual movement of larger scale commercial maritime activity from Drogheda. If that is indeed the direction of travel, then perhaps now is the ideal time to ask a different question. What strategic national role might Drogheda Port play in the decades ahead?  Ireland's maritime security environment has changed significantly in recent years. The use of drones and the protection of critical infrastructure, undersea communications cables, energy connections and key shipping routes have become matters of national importance. Across Europe there is growing recognition of the need to strengthen maritime surveillance and security capabilities. In that context, Drogheda offers a number of advantages worth serious examination. Located right at the heart of the Dublin-Belfast economic corridor, it provides immediate access to the Irish Sea and sits between the two largest cities on the island. It is connected by road, rail and air transport infrastructure in a way few coastal locations can match. Drogheda, as we know, is one of the fastest growing urban centres in the State and is experiencing one of the highest rates of housing delivery in the country. Significant Government investment announced by our colleague, the Minister, Deputy James Browne, in the past few days is now being directed towards the infrastructure needed to support that growth, including the phased delivery of the port access northern cross route, which will ultimately provide a direct strategic link between Drogheda Port and the M1 motorway. The development of an eastern maritime security hub would therefore not simply be a defence investment; it would represent a major economic opportunity for Drogheda and the wider north east, supporting high-quality employment, attracting investment and encouraging the development of maritime technology and innovation.  I am not asking the Minister of State to announce a massive naval base for Drogheda to replace Haulbowline. I am asking whether we have properly considered the strategic potential of Drogheda at a time when Ireland is rethinking maritime security. The future of maritime security will not be defined solely by the size of vessels tied up alongside a quay wall. It will increasingly depend on surveillance technology, unmanned aerial systems, maritime drones, intelligence gathering, the monitoring of critical infrastructure and rapid response capability. Drogheda's location makes it uniquely suited to many of those functions. Its proximity to Dublin Airport, which is just 20 minutes away, major transport networks, being moments from the M1, and some of the busiest shipping routes in the Irish Sea could make it an ideal location for an eastern maritime security hub serving a range of State agencies. A multimillion euro green energy project is planned for the former Premier Periclase site right by the port.  The tidal issue is real, although it is not necessarily a barrier. Maritime facilities across the world operate successfully in tidal environments through modern engineering solutions and carefully designed infrastructure. The question is not whether challenges exist; it is whether the strategic advantages justify examining this opportunity.  Drogheda has been a maritime town for centuries, and proudly so. This emerging city continues to grow. As the State continues to invest in the infrastructure needed to support that growth, we should be ambitious enough to ask not only what Drogheda can become but what role Drogheda can play in supporting Ireland's national security, economic resilience and maritime future. I would welcome the Minister of State's views on whether a feasibility assessment of Drogheda's potential as an eastern maritime security and surveillance hub has been or will be undertaken. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Moynihan  I compliment Senator Comyn on the passion and commitment she showed to Drogheda and its environs. She was clearly not reading from a script but speaking from the heart. She gave a strong defence of the strengths of Drogheda and how the town can play a pivotal part in Ireland's security in the future. Well done on that. It is great to see the Senator show such passion and commitment to her community.  I am responding on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Helen McEntee, who unfortunately cannot be here. She has asked me to convey her apologies to the Senator and the House. I thank the Senator for raising the issue.  The Report of the Commission on the Defence Forces calls for the development of an east coast base for the Naval Service. Reflecting this, the programme for Government has also recognised the need for an east coast base. Such a base would support the operations of the Naval Service and also raise the profile of the service along the eastern seaboard, with a potential beneficial impact on recruitment. In addition, the Minister for Defence recently published Ireland's first national maritime security strategy. The strategy focuses on risks and threats to Ireland's national security and defence through a new whole-of-government approach. It has an accompanying action plan to ensure delivery of this new whole-of-government approach to protecting the security of our maritime domain.  As part of this action plan, options will be explored to expand the State's existing naval infrastructure, including exploring the potential for a forward operating base on the east coast. The action plan sets out a timeline of 2030 for a decision relating to the east coast forward operational base concept. Work will commence on developing options in the near future. In particular, the issue of the east coast base has been discussed in the context of the inshore patrol vessels, IPVs, L\u00c9 Aoibhinn and L\u00c9 Gobnait . These IPVs were acquired with a particular focus on east coast operations. They are well-suited to key missions like the protection of critical infrastructure, with the L\u00c9 Aoibhinn becoming operational in 2024. The T\u00e1naiste then gave approval to leasing the berth in D\u00fan Laoghaire to support east coast operations in the short term, for a period of up to five years.  With this in mind, the Department has recently signed a licence with D\u00fan Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council, the owner of the harbour in D\u00fan Laoghaire, regarding exclusive use of the berth by the Naval Service. Relevant works on the site will commence shortly to support Naval Service operations. The operations of this temporary facility will provide an opportunity to develop proof of concept for any future east coast base and will help identify precise requirements for such a base.  Additionally, a Naval Service regeneration plan is due to be submitted shortly for the consideration of the Minister for Defence. The regeneration plan has been devised on foot of detailed workshops held between senior military officers, led by the Chief of Staff, and senior officials in the Department of Defence. The issue of additional naval bases, on the east coast or elsewhere, will be considered in the context of that awaited plan and recommendations arising from same. I note that as a measure of the Government's commitment to investing in the Naval Service, to date infrastructure projects to a value of over \u20ac20 million have been completed for the Naval Service, with a further \u20ac17 million worth of projects at either procurement, design or construction. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alison Comyn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alison Comyn  We all have to acknowledge that the threat to Ireland's security is real, and we must, at all costs, secure our coast and keep our citizens safe. I am encouraged and thank the Minister of State for his comprehensive response. I am encouraged that my proposal was not dismissed outright. The Minister of State, Deputy Thomas Byrne, and I are working hard on this to see if it is a possibility. We understand D\u00fan Laoghaire is currently being used. It is a temporary measure. We believe that Drogheda Port, with all of its infrastructure and access, has less density and does not have busy ferries coming and going at all times. I am also encouraged the see the Naval Service is recruiting and taking security and a new naval base very seriously. I will continue to advocate for Drogheda Port to be considered as a maritime hub and security base. I thank the Minister of State for giving what I will take as a positive and encouraging response. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Moynihan  I ask the Senator to keep up the excellent work. Her passion and commitment to her community come across in spades. I understand a wise person once said that if you have pride in your community, you have pride in your nation and your world. It is a great attribute to have. Well done.  The Senator has made her point and has engaged with the Minister of State, Deputy Byrne, and the Minister, Deputy McEntee. We have serious commitment to the east coast in the programme for Government. In the immediate term and short term, we are looking at what we can do with the leases signed for D\u00fan Laoghaire. As regards long-term planning, a huge amount of investment and study is taking place on the Defence Forces and our security, and how we will see that into the future. It is a real concern for the Government and there is real engagement on the issue at Government level.  The Senator made her points about Drogheda well and I encourage her to keep up the good work on it. I will relay the points she has made to the Department. I know the Minister of State and Minister have been engaging with her and I will ensure they engage further. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionra\u00ed ar 10.20 a.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 10.32 a.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Sitting suspended at 10.20 a.m. and resumed at 10.32 a.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ports Policy"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_9","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Gn\u00f3 an tSeanaid - Business of Seanad","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_9","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  It is my great pleasure to welcome Ambassador Ensch to the Distinguished Visitors Gallery. Tuesday, 23 June marks Luxembourg's national day, which celebrates the reigning monarch's birthday. The celebration of this holiday has been a tradition since the 19th century, though it has not always fallen on this date. Throughout Luxembourg's history, the holiday has fallen on different dates under various monarchs. This year marks 65 years since it was declared by grand-ducal decree in 1961 that the national day would be celebrated on 23 June.  Ireland has had a diplomatic presence in Luxembourg since the beginning of our membership of the European Union. The Irish Embassy was opened in Luxembourg City in the year of our accession to the EEC, 1973, which led to the development of bilateral relations in 1974. It is just over three years since the Luxembourg Embassy to Ireland was opened in June 2023.  Ireland and Luxembourg also share long-standing economic and cultural ties. There is a strong Irish presence.in EU bodies based in Luxembourg, such as the European Court of Auditors, the European Court of Justice and the European Investment Bank. There is a growing Irish community in Luxembourg that is at its highest number in over ten years. Many Irish people have moved to Luxembourg for work in a variety of fields, including for the EU institutions, where some work in the Irish language, allowing it to grow as a working language.  An Irish presence in Luxembourg has led to the development of many Irish clubs, societies and associations across the country, such as the Irish Club of Luxembourg. There are also branches of organisations such as Comhaltas Ceolt\u00f3ir\u00ed \u00c9ireann, An Cumann Gaelach Lucsamburg and Gaelic Sports Club Luxembourg, which runs GAA games for anyone in the city interested in playing.  As we celebrate Luxembourg's national day, I extend my warmest wishes to the ambassador, Ms Florence Ensch, who is with us today, and to the Luxembourg community in Ireland and around the world. I wish them a happy national day. In my best Luxembourgish: sch\u00e9inen Nationalfeierdag . Go raibh maith agaibh. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Gn\u00f3 an tSeanaid - Business of Seanad"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_10","debateType":"orderofBusiness","bill":null,"showAs":"An tOrd Gn\u00f3 - Order of Business","counts":{"speechCount":30,"speakerCount":16},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_10","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fiona O'Loughlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"R\u00f3n\u00e1n Mullen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/R\u00f3n\u00e1n-Mullen.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"R\u00f3n\u00e1n-Mullen.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanne Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alison Comyn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sharon Keogan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Margaret Murphy O'Mahony","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ollie Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ollie-Crowe.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Ollie-Crowe.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aubrey McCarthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Laura Harmon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Victor Boyhan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Duffy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sarah O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gareth Scahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fiona O'Loughlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Fiona O'Loughlin  I extend my warm welcome and congratulations to the ambassador. It is lovely to have her here again. It is a lovely country. A delegation from the Joint committee on European Affairs visited Luxembourg recently and was very impressed by all whom they met and all that they saw. I was not part of the delegation but we look forward to the continued friendship between our two countries.  The Order of Business is No. 1, Criminal Law, Civil Law and Defence (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2026, which is changed from Criminal Law and Civil Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2026 - Second Stage, to be taken on 11.30 a.m. or on conclusion of the Order of Business, whichever is the later, with the time allocated to the opening remarks of the Minister not to exceed ten minutes, group spokespersons not to exceed eight minutes, all other Senators not to exceed five minutes and the Minister to be given no less than ten minutes to reply to the debate. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mary Fitzpatrick  I welcome the ambassador and congratulate her, her country and her community on their national day. I hope they enjoy the celebrations, which are well-deserved.  The media is dominated consistently by negative stories when it comes to housing and it is important for people to recognise the challenge but also recognise the progress being made. On that basis, I welcome the announcement from Government this week of additional funding to unlock more homes through the housing infrastructure investment fund. This \u20ac1 billion fund is dedicated solely to unlocking lands suitable for housing, which, for various reasons, be they related to water or roads infrastructure, are not being used. Dublin is part of the much bigger nationwide programme of 82 projects with over 200,000 homes. In Dublin city, this will result in more than 5,000 additional homes on land in Ballyfermot, Balbutcher and St. Teresa's Gardens. It is really welcome investment and builds on the progress made since Fianna F\u00e1il took over in 2020. There have been more than 170,000 new homes built. We see real momentum. In the first quarter of this year alone, more than 8,000 homes commenced.  The second issue I will raise is one I have raised multiple times here: retail crime. The Deputy Leader and everybody else in the House will have heard reports in the news yesterday of multiple individuals on multiple charges in one court in Dublin. There were 81 arrests in D\u00fan Laoghaire for shoplifting. I commend the Garda. It has had a targeted approach to this, is using intelligence and is supporting businesses. However, this is a national issue. It costs more than \u20ac1.6 billion per year. There are direct links to organised crime. This is not just casual, opportunistic shoplifting any more; it is an organised activity. The people being hit hardest are small retailers in our villages and towns. I was nominated to the House by the Retail Grocery Dairy and Allied Trades Association, RGDATA. I have called for a debate in this House. I have met with the Minister for justice. He is taking the issue seriously. He has a retail crime strategy and task force in place. I would appreciate if the Deputy Leader could arrange at the earliest opportunity for the Seanad to debate the issue.  My hometown of Dublin is our capital city and it pains me to raise this but it falls far short of what we should be able to expect in terms of cleanliness in the public domain. I have raised the issue many times. Dublin City Council needs to step up to the plate; it needs to stop stepping back from the issue and creating more problems. Today we hear of compactors being overloaded and unavailable, and of the doubling of costs for businesses. I presume all Senators are familiar with Stoneybatter. It is one of the oldest villages in the city. These are small artisan two-terraced houses, two-up, two-down - not even two-up, two-down in some cases - and they are expected to use wheelie bins. Dublin City Council needs to tackle street cleaning and waste management more effectively. Our capital deserves better. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"R\u00f3n\u00e1n Mullen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/R\u00f3n\u00e1n-Mullen.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"R\u00f3n\u00e1n-Mullen.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator R\u00f3n\u00e1n Mullen  I was also glad to see the Luxembourgish ambassador here today. I was part of the European affairs committee delegation that went to Luxembourg recently. It is a very interesting country given all its minorities, including the many people who were not born there and, indeed, the many who travel there every day to work. It is also a country with a very interesting association with County Carlow because its patron saint is St. Willibrord, as the Deputy Leader probably knows very well. Whereas we often talk about all the monks who travelled from Ireland abroad, this is a man who came from England originally and studied in Carlow for 12 years. According to Wikipedia, he is the only saint who is buried in Luxembourg. Carlow is the county connected with Luxembourg for our European Presidency.  I register my disappointment and that of many people over the passing in the D\u00e1il last night of Second Stage legislation that proposes to remove the three-day wait for abortions. I spoke about this yesterday but what I did not mention was the rather lopsided situation whereby the two party leaders in Government, Deputies Martin and Harris, signalled at an early stage their intention to vote in a way that does not represent the position adopted by the majority in their own parties. While they say this is a matter of a free vote, in fact they are creating a lopsided situation because they are conspiring with other parties \u2013 left-wing parties \u2013 that do not allow a free vote. If everybody had been allowed a free vote, I wonder what way it would have gone yesterday. For example, I was in contact with one member of a left-wing party yesterday and I said I encouraged people to vote against the proposal, and that we need to give women the chance to at least pause to reflect, which would save many lives. The person responded to me that was certainly a positive thing they supported, and that they had stated so in their party, but that they were not prepared to lose the whip. It is fine for people like the Taoiseach, Deputy Miche\u00e1l Martin, and the T\u00e1naiste, Deputy Simon Harris, to pretend they are somehow great democrats, but in fact what they are doing is working behind the scenes with the other parties to move the dial on a very sensitive social issue in a way that does not reflect what their own membership expects of them and what the majority of their members would support.  I commend in particular those Ministers in leadership positions who went the other way last night. I renew my call for a debate in this House, but also for the opportunity to put on the agenda that we need to work together to reduce the number of abortions. It is a tragic thing that the likes of Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton, who were in favour of legalised abortion, used to talk about abortion being safe, legal and rare, but we are not even allowed to say that now. The Taoiseach will not say that abortion should be rare. Why? It is because he, like the T\u00e1naiste, is captured by an abortion lobby that seems to be calling all the shots. The pile of bodies is rising higher, with over 10,000 babies losing their lives every year. These people do not seem to care. They portray themselves as people who want to create a cohesive, united, caring society and they have nothing to say about the fact that our abortion numbers are rising. This is a massive tragedy and a massive loss of human potential. There is a human cost, as Deputy T\u00f3ib\u00edn spoke about, not to mention the hurt caused to very many women. There are women who have spoken out. I recall in particular the remark of Moya Brennan, whom we all admired as a great artist. She said she wished somebody had told her before she had her abortion. There are testimonies like this that need to be heard. Please, can we have better leadership from our Government on this to at least allow different sides of this debate to be heard? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanne Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joanne Collins  In response to Senator Mullen, I for one am delighted to see that the legislation might pass and the three-day rule might stop because I do not know of any man who walks into a doctor\u2019s surgery and is told to go home and think about it for three days. Yes, there is strain and mental stress for women on both sides: women who may have had an abortion and maybe were not 100% swayed that way and maybe regretted it afterwards, but also women sent home for three days, with the stress on their bodies that involves, who are told to have a think about it. It is absolutely disgraceful for anybody to be told to go and think about it when it comes to their own healthcare. I am delighted to see that there is cross-party support for the legislation.  On childcare, there is a serious issue with core funding. I am sure this does not just arise in County Limerick and that it is widespread in every county. The rates were reduced last week. The fee reduction for parents of a mere \u20ac14 per week was not what we wanted but it was something. Two TLC Childcare cr\u00e8ches in Newcastle West, County Limerick, have done their books and have realised that while the \u20ac14 a week is going to come off for each child, what they can claim back works out at \u20ac5.80. Regarding what they can claim back under core funding, they are going to be nearly \u20ac10 short per week per child. Core funding was supposed to be reviewed. I understand there is a review beginning, but it is only a review of year one. We need a review of the four years of core funding to see how this is affecting childcare facilities.  The parents from one of the childcare facilities have all contacted me. TLC Childcare charges \u20ac140 and \u20ac150, respectively, for its two childcare centres in Newcastle West. It needs the fee increase assessment to be opened. The assessment does open but the provider has not been given a date. Through it, the provider can show its books and accounts, show where core funding is not meeting what is needed to stay sustainable, and show that it needs to increase its fees by a small amount. It needs to increase its fee to \u20ac180. If not, it says, it will have to leave core funding, which would see its fees increase to \u20ac240 per week per child. The parents are not going to be able to afford that and will end up leaving. There are many nurses living in Newcastle West and they use this childcare facility. We are talking about HSE staff having to consider giving up work because this childcare provider cannot afford to stay within core funding. I ask that the core funding be reviewed for all four years. Could we have a date for the opening of the fee increase assessment so the provider will at least have some sense of when it might be able to look into this and determine whether its fee can be increased while staying within core funding, which is what we all want? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alison Comyn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alison Comyn  I am very shocked and quite angry at some of the news that is coming from Drogheda, County Louth, today. The 14 step-down beds in Cottage Hospital are under threat. These are vital beds that at times serve very vulnerable and elderly people who are freeing up beds in Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital but who cannot go directly home. The beds in Cottage Hospital are to assist these people in making it back home again. The thought that these people might have to travel to Dundalk or even further is just unthinkable. There are 30 staff in the hospital, very loyal staff, some of whom have been there for up to 35 years. They were told by text that the beds are under threat. That is simply not acceptable.  This hospital has been under threat for years. In 2012, I marched with local people to try to stop its closure. In 2015, long-term care was removed. In 2021, the then health Minister, Stephen Donnelly, visited the hospital regarding an upgrade, but now I am hearing that the 14 beds on the top floor are under threat. The downstairs of the hospital has clinics, the doctor on call and the ambulance service. There is no question but that it needs an upgrade. The hospital has been in place since 1907 and has provided an invaluable service to the town and must be protected at all costs. I will certainly do everything in my power to make sure that the HSE reverses this decision.  My own grand-aunt was the midwife in the hospital when it was the maternity hospital. They say she delivered half the town. I certainly will not allow the bed closure to happen if it is unwarranted and unneeded. We need to make sure our elderly people are looked after in their own hometown and not removed. Of course, if the jobs can be protected within the hospital, we need to do that. There is a wider discussion to be had on looking after our smaller healthcare facilities in communities right across the country. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sharon Keogan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Sharon Keogan  I add my voice to the comments made today by Senators Mullen, Gallagher, O\u2019Reilly and McCarthy on the new Bill introduced by Sinn F\u00e9in to eliminate the three-day waiting period before receiving an abortion, and to express my sadness at its being passed on Second Stage last night. With the Taoiseach and the T\u00e1naiste standing back on this issue, it is very worrying.  It is very worrying because there is no real evidence that there is broad public demand for this reform. In fact, most Irish people, even those who are in favour of abortion, believe there is a need to reduce it. Many who voted yes in the referendum only did so with the assurance that they would allow it in moderate and reasonable circumstances. Instead, the leadership of Fine Gael and Fianna F\u00e1il are caving in to a loud but small group of people who are privileged to be disproportionately represented and present in higher echelons of society and politics and do not reflect the popular democratic feelings. I am deeply worried about this because it is exactly what many of us who supported the eighth amendment feared and warned about, that is, once the issue of abortion was taken out of the Constitution and put into statute, we would see a slow, continual coup, an erosion of any safeguards or measures to reduce abortion and would find ourselves on a slippery slope towards total, unlimited abortion access.  There is something quite cynical in Sinn F\u00e9in bringing this forward so soon after such a similar Bill by the Social Democrats fell through. Of course it is entitled to do so but just because it is permitted does not mean it is right. Like the Government parties, Sinn F\u00e9in also appears to be listening to the loud but minority left-wing ideologues within its ranks and not to its broader Catholic, nationalist and pro-family membership and voter base. In this Bill, both the Government and the left Opposition appear more content in copying their English counterparts in Keir Starmer's Labour Party than in doing the right thing by the Irish people and they will not forgive them come the next election. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Margaret Murphy O'Mahony","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Margaret Murphy O'Mahony  This week is Men's Health Week, and I acknowledge and support that here in the Seanad. Men face higher risks of premature mortality, often because they are slow to get things checked out. Men are known for not talking about health issues and certainly not going to their doctors to get things checked, so the motto for this week is, \u201cone step at a time, progress not perfection\". This aims to encourage men to make small changes rather than attempting huge, chronic changes in their lives. We need to encourage our menfolk to talk about their health and get things checked out. We as women are much better, certainly at talking about our health, and it is proven that we are better at going to our GPs to get things checked. It is important that it comes from here that men should look after themselves. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  I agree with my colleague, Senator Collins. It is right that the three-day rule is hopefully going to be got rid of because it is about choice and respect for women. If I went to a doctor and the doctor told me that I had to think about it for three days, I would find that really patronising. As I do not think it would happen to a man, I do not think it should happen to women either in terms of healthcare.  Cuba is facing an extraordinarily difficult economic situation as a result of the illegal trade blockade imposed by the Trump regime. Sinn F\u00e9in activists and representatives and the Cuba Solidarity Forum Ireland have donated and organised containers of medical supplies for Cuba to help alleviate some of the most severe effects of this blockade. I thank everyone who contributed to this important cause. The blockade has resulted in severe shortages of food, medicine, and other necessities. It is having a dire impact on ordinary Cuban citizens. This is nothing new, as the Cuban people have been enduring this situation for more than 60 years, but those in power in the United States are clearly trying to put maximum economic pressure on Cuba to try to force regime change. This blockade has been repeatedly condemned by the UN General Assembly, which votes practically every year to call on the United States to end its blockade. Despite this, American policy is going in the other direction and Trump, Rubio and their acolytes have been trying to bully other sovereign states to stop their trade with Cuba. It is just another example of the terminal decline of international law and institutions.  Since the illegal and criminal US military actions in Venezuela, we have seen an escalation of aggression towards Cuba and it is not unlikely that this country will be next targeted by Trump. Some will claim the US won in Venezuela. That is debatable. It has clearly lost in Iran and now Trump will be setting his sights on a new target, which is likely to be Cuba. In particular, the Trump regime has been trying to deprive Cuba of its energy supply by trying to force Mexico and other countries to stop perfectly legitimate bilateral trade with Cuba. It has also been propagating false propaganda narratives that Cuba somehow poses a threat to the United States as a clear means of justifying a future war. For anybody who knows anything about geopolitics, that is clearly not true. Ireland and the EU have a responsibility to stand up to Trump and his endless aggression. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"R\u00f3n\u00e1n Mullen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/R\u00f3n\u00e1n-Mullen.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"R\u00f3n\u00e1n-Mullen.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator R\u00f3n\u00e1n Mullen  Well said, but the Senator might add that Cuba is not exactly one of the great democracies either. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ollie Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ollie-Crowe.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Ollie-Crowe.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Ollie Crowe  I raise the proposal reforms to the criminal legal aid scheme, which are due to come into effect on 1 July. As Members are aware, strike action began in courts across the country in recent days and is expected to continue today and tomorrow. To outline the changes in pounds, shillings, and pence, at present, solicitors are paid \u20ac239.38 for an initial District Court appearance, and \u20ac59.86 for each subsequent hearing. The reforms would change this to a single fee of \u20ac455 regardless of the number of court appearances required. The case could be adjourned nine or ten times and the fee would not change. I appreciate the Department's efforts to ensure value for taxpayers' money and that the Department is continuing to engage with stakeholders such as the Law Society of Ireland on the proposed changes. Having said that, it seems at this point that it would be better to push back the date of introduction for the reforms to the autumn at least, and allow for longer consultation to take place over the summer. We all recognise the importance of an effective court structure and strike action will significantly impact the smooth operation of the process. I would be grateful if the Deputy Leader of the House would raise this with the Minister for Justice, Deputy O\u2019Callaghan, and possibly write to him also. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aubrey McCarthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Aubrey McCarthy  This morning, as part of the housing committee, I was downstairs for the launch of the homelessness report. I mentioned in this House before that I appeared before the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Housing and Homelessness back in 2016, at which stage there were approximately 6,000 people in homelessness. The Minister for housing gave an undertaking that homelessness would be eradicated by 2020. The homeless report today deals with a trebling of those numbers in the past ten years. We have more than 17,500 in emergency accommodation, and the report is now saying we hope to eradicate homelessness by 2030. The timeline is fairly tight.  We need 300,000 houses by 2030. I know we are describing homelessness as a crisis but for me a crisis is something that is usually temporary and arrives suddenly. You declare an emergency, you deal with it, and then you move on. It is disconcerting that ten years later we are dealing with a trebling of the numbers. That should concern every one of us.  Today's report reflects many of the concerns I have spoken about in this House and which front-line organisations have spoken about too, such as the need to focus on prevention and tenant in situ schemes. We need to focus on the members of the older generation who are now entering into homelessness, and how the demographics of homelessness have changed. Through our outreach service at Tiglin at the Lighthouse, we meet people who are not from the group traditionally associated with homelessness. These are ordinary people who, through no full fault of their own, have lost their house because, for example, the landlord is selling the house. Families are becoming homeless, not because of addiction, mental health issues, etc, but because they have nowhere else to go when the house is sold.  The committee's report is very welcome but reports do not house people. We need definite action and urgency on that. Every day we delay more people are losing their home. More than 24,000 people have received eviction notices in the past year, since we changed the regulation. We owe them better than that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Laura Harmon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Laura Harmon  The first issue I want to raise is the proposed closure of Carlow College. I had a public meeting online last night with concerned staff and students, people living in the area, members of the public, and students unions who are expressing deep concerns in relation to this, and seeking more clarity in terms of what will happen with specific courses and what it will mean for the local economy and students.  My big concern is that this is a workers' rights issue. There was a lack of information and transparency when it came to informing staff about this. There is a lot of worry at the minute and I urge the college to engage fully with the trade union movement. I know that SIPTU is seeking a meeting with the college. The Minister needs to provide further clarity for the general public. This issue is of public interest. I know that the further and higher education Oireachtas committee will be looking at this further as well and inviting representatives of the college to come before it in the coming weeks. The issue is also presently being discussed at the Committee of Public Accounts, but we need more clarity in relation to this.  I also raise the issue of student homelessness. A recent report showed that 346 students reported being homeless in the most recent academic year. We know that this is not the full figure because it does not account for couch surfing, for example, or other forms of hidden homelessness. We know that student poverty exists. Nearly one third of students in UCC two years ago reported going to class hungry and skipping meals because of issues around the cost of college. Coming up to the new academic term in a few months, there will be a scramble for accommodation again and issues around affordability. It should be a happy time for students and their families where they are excited about beginning a new chapter and going to college. It should be an exciting time but it is a time of great worry. I have requested a meeting with the Minister to discuss that issue and the issue of student rent caps. A very worrying practice is going on in some institutions whereby student rents in purpose-built accommodation are being raised by putting up the service charges, often without proper explanation as to why these charges are increasing. DCU is one example and UCC is another example. We need to clamp down on this. The Residential Tenancies Board, RTB, should be conducting more inspections and having more authority over it. The cost of college needs to be addressed. Student homelessness is another symptom and consequence of the wider homelessness issue in this country but it is definitely a big part of it as well. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Victor Boyhan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Victor Boyhan  I congratulate Senator Ahearn, who has been appointed Leader of the Seanad. I also congratulate Senator Cathal Byrne, who will be the Government Chief Whip in the Seanad. I wish them both well. It is an important step and a great honour and privilege. I hope from all sides of the House that we will work constructively. While we might not agree on policy or legislation, we will agree on how we conduct ourselves and the way we in this House order our business. I wish them both every success and happiness in their terms in office.  I raise the issue of the Common Agricultural Policy, CAP, post-2027 priorities for the Irish Farmers Association, IFA. Many of us will have received its document. I want to initially indicate my full support for the IFA in relation to the multi-annual financial framework, MFF, which is critical for the CAP. We have always to get under the bonnet to the finances. I commend the MFF on the CAP. I would like, if possible, to have a debate in this House on the issue. It is important.  The Minister for Children, Disability and Equality, Deputy Foley, today launched the 2026 what works in communities fund. It is an amazing fund. It is really progressive. It believes in supporting and encouraging early interventions to ensure that children and families receive the right support at the right time in our communities. I commend the Minister on this initiative, which she announced this morning. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Duffy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mark Duffy  I support the community of Strade in County Mayo who are campaigning to have a bus route returned that is a vital link for their whole community. The 52 bus route connects Ballina and Galway. It always connected into Strade where two new bus stops were recently built. Unfortunately, however, Bus \u00c9ireann ceased the bus route, much to the dismay of everyone, including me. Thankfully, a public service obligation kicked in and Citylink took over the route. Sadly, the village of Strade was left out of this important route. The village of Strade is a rural area and this bus was a vital link to connect people from the village into Foxford, Ballina, Castlebar and onwards to Galway for education, work and medical appointments. To have the route stopped has been a devastating blow.  I reiterate my call to Citylink to include Strade on the route. I ask the National Transport Authority, NTA, to intervene. I have raised the issue on numerous occasions and continually campaign for the community. I ask for the support of this House to see the route reintroduced because we need to have supports for public transport. We need public service obligations and this is a perfect example of it. I ask for support. I acknowledge Councillors Neil Cruise and Donna Sheridan who have raised the matter with me and asked me to continually campaign for it. We will not let up until the route is returned. I also acknowledge the local community, including Jimmy Mulroy, who has led a petition to reflect the demands of the people of Strade.  I congratulate Senators Ahearn and Cathal Byrne on their appointments as Leader and Whip, respectively. They are brilliant achievements and I am delighted for them both. Like Senator Boyhan said, I hope, and have no doubt, that they will work across the House in a constructive way on behalf of us all. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  I welcome the students from St. Colmcille's National School. They are a student council, I understand, along with their m\u00fainteoir\u00ed. They are guests of Deputy Ciar\u00e1n Ahern. They are very welcome and I hope they enjoy their visit. It is customary here in the Seanad that there is no homework for the rest of the week. I hope they enjoy their visit. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sarah O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Sarah O'Reilly  I will talk about local authorities and councils, and address some of the comments made by the T\u00e1naiste, Deputy Harris, earlier this week about derelict houses. It was a low blow to attack local authorities and councillors for not doing enough. I wonder has he forgotten that local authorities get their policy from Government. Dereliction is a massive and complicated issue. Our local authorities have been doing the best they can with the resources available to them. There can be problems with ownership, titles or rebate, making it difficult to see who is responsible for a property. Of course, policies and schemes have to be workable and sometimes schemes are unworkable. The T\u00e1naiste said he was frustrated that he had to bring in legislation to fine owners of derelict properties but it was already in the programme for Government. The existing legislation goes back to the 1990s and is not fit for purpose. For context, there are circulars and diktats sent down from Government Departments on an ongoing and constant basis. Every day, there is something new from the Government that has to be implemented at local authority level. Local authorities are really struggling with their workloads. They need more resources.  I have noticed a culture of the blame game. The Minister, Deputy Browne, when there were floods in Enniscorthy, blamed Met \u00c9ireann for not giving a warning. I was at a funeral a couple of weeks ago and was asked by a constituent about her road, which is in a very bad condition. I said that the money is not there for the roads. It is just not there. I told her she needs to lobby her local Fianna F\u00e1il TD. She told me she had already done so and was told it was the fault of the local authority. It is unfair to be blaming local authorities when they are not properly financed and resourced. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gareth Scahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Gareth Scahill  I, too, would like to be associated with the good wishes to Senators Ahearn and Cathal Byrne on their appointments. When the announcement was made, I was wondering did they get the right Gareth in the first place, but there were 17 good candidates in the race and a good decision has been made. We are in good hands for the remainder of the term.  I also welcome the planning green light for Coillte's development in Lough Key Forest Park in Boyle. It was just announced this morning. There will be redevelopment and upgrading of the visitor centre, a new activity hub, enhanced outdoor attractions and a new aqua park. I recently spent a day with the Minister for tourism, Deputy Burke, in Roscommon and we visited Strokestown House and gardens, the Arigna Mining Experience, the John McGahern Barracks in Cootehall and finished off the day in the forest park to attend the Night and Day Festival. If anyone in the Chamber or watching has not visited Roscommon in the last 12 months, they have not visited Roscommon, and there is an awful lot more to see at this time of year. I mention Clonalis House in my home town, the Suck Valley Way for those who want to go outdoors, and Rathcroghan Visitor Centre, which the Minister of State, Deputy Moran, recently visited with me. There is an awful lot happening. Government is backing these initiatives. It is looking at which parts of the country we can do an awful lot for regarding attractions and tourism. I welcome that and give out a call in my last few seconds to visit Roscommon----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fiona O'Loughlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Fiona O'Loughlin  You call and we will be there. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gareth Scahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Gareth Scahill  -----before Senator Comyn gets in and tries to convince everyone to go to Louth again. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alison Comyn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alison Comyn  It is too late. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gareth Scahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Gareth Scahill  It is too late. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  Before I call the Deputy Leader to respond, I, too, congratulate Senator Ahearn on being appointed Leader and Senator Byrne on his appointment as Government Chief Whip. I look forward to working with both of them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mary Fitzpatrick  A Leas-Chathaoirligh, it was remiss of me not to do the same when I spoke on behalf of the Fianna F\u00e1il group. I congratulate the two Senators. I am really delighted for them and we wish them well. I look forward to working with them in their new roles. They will be super. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fiona O'Loughlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Fiona O'Loughlin  I thank the 17 Senators who contributed on the Order of Business. As Deputy Leader I add my voice to the congratulations to Senators Ahearn and Byrne. In the month or so since the by-election in Galway, I have been working closely Senator Ahearn. We have worked very well together and I look forward to that continuing. It is also really important we have co-operation not just between the two Government parties that are in coalition but that we have co-operation and work effectively with the leaders of all the groupings in the Seanad. We will disagree on policy and possibly on implementation of certain policies, but having smooth running of the Seanad and showing respect for each and every Member is really important, and that is an important role for the Leader. I again wish both Senators well.  We started with Senator Fitzpatrick. She spoke about how we see negative news about housing on an ongoing basis but, while recognising the challenges, we should also recognise the wins and the progress. The funds that were allocated three days ago are definitely a good news story. I was delighted to see 82 projects nationwide being allocated funding. The Senator mentioned the funding for Dublin, in particular for Ballyfermot and St. Teresa's Gardens. Unlocking the possibility of 3,000 houses is certainly good news. I had the opportunity on Tuesday to talk about our own in Kildare, which is important as well. We have to continue building on progress and building momentum. I thank Senator Fitzpatrick for reminding us of that.  Retail crime is a really serious issue and we had a meeting with RGDATA, I think last year, on the ongoing huge problem with this type of crime. We see multiple individuals on multiple charges on an ongoing basis. The few times I have been in a courtroom, the number of people who were returning really bothered me. It is difficult, to be fair, for garda\u00ed too and very frustrating for them. For some people it is casual opportunism but, as Senator Fitzpatrick said, for many it is not as they are shoplifting to order. It is shoplifting by organised crime. There is a retail task force and the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, is very conscious of the issue, but I agree we need to have an informed debate on it. We need to look at some type of solution-based focus but also to look at the judicial system. That absolutely needs reform because when we have people doing this on an ongoing basis, that is not good enough.  Senator Fitzpatrick also raised the cleanliness of the public domain. There is quite a bit of debate at the moment about Dublin in particular. There needs to be a focus on cleanliness, street cleaning and waste collection, as she said. I had the opportunity to speak to the incoming mayor, Daryl Barron, recently and it is going to be a key focus for him.  Senator Mullen welcomed the ambassador and spoke about the links between Luxembourg and Carlow, as well as about the vote in the D\u00e1il last night. He was unfair to call out the Taoiseach and T\u00e1naiste for how they voted. It was agreed at different times within each party that every member of the party would have a conscience vote, and I believe that is the right way to go. Both the Taoiseach and T\u00e1naiste voted according to what they felt was correct and we should absolutely not be calling them out for that. It is a free vote for everybody no matter what status you hold within the party and it will be a free vote within those two parties when the Bill comes to this House. Not every party has that. It is up to each party to decide whether it is going to have a collective view and have the whip in place or a free vote. It is not up to any other party or an Independent Member to comment on that. It is a very sensitive social issue with sincerely held views on both sides of this argument, and I genuinely respect the views on both sides, as we all need to do. It is not fair to say the Taoiseach is captured by a lobby group. We have to listen to both sides and we also have to listen to the women who have been impacted and the women who have crisis pregnancies. This includes listening to those who have spoken about abortion regret. We had other comments later on about that.  Senator Collins also spoke about this, expressing the view, as did Senator Andrews, that men would not be asked to delay for three days in relation to a decision. Senator Collins also spoke about childcare, those in core funding and those that may be coming out. We certainly do not want to see providers coming out of core funding. About 93% of childcare operators are in core funding and apparently those that have opted out are slowly coming back in. That is good but we want to try to get everyone into core funding. It is very difficult, especially on the parents, when children are going to childcare providers that are not within core funding because they have to pay more as well. Childcare is very complex and it needs to work for everybody. It needs to work for the children, their parents, the owners and operators and those who are working within it.  It is a very valuable resource for society and we absolutely need to work together. I will ask that the fee increase assessment to be open. I will certainly write to the Minister on that. On Friday evening I visited T\u00edr na n\u00d3g in Athy and they were celebrating 30 years in existence. Kathleen, Lorraine and their family and they had a little graduation ceremony celebrating 30 years serving families in Athy. We have to support them all in whatever way we can.  Senator Comyn spoke about news coming from Drogheda this morning that the small hospital that has been there since 1907 and has 14 step-down beds is in danger of closing. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alison Comyn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alison Comyn  It is closing. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fiona O'Loughlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Fiona O'Loughlin  The part of the hospital that has 14 step-down beds and 40 staff is closing. That is very concerning because step-down beds are hugely important and are keeping the beds open for those who need acute and emergency care. While we have people who are not able to go home and live independently for a short period, we have to have step-down beds. The Senator said that the fact that clinics, doctor on call and ambulance services are also located there means it is a very important part of Drogheda and she is right that we need to look after our own in our own town. That is what Sl\u00e1intecare is about and what the Senator said is happening really goes against all the tenets of Sl\u00e1intecare, which was an all-party agreement at the time. We most certainly will write to the Minster and ask that closure be reversed and ask that the HSE does so.  Senator Keogan spoke about the vote last night. That absolutely is democracy. We have to respect that at different times, different Members both in the Seanad and the D\u00e1il will not be happy with votes that are taken and the result of them, but that is democracy. Senator Keogan used the phrase \"caving in\" and I absolutely take exception to that. Hard decisions by individuals were made. People have to make hard decisions about votes they take. It most certainly was not caving in to any lobbying. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sharon Keogan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Sharon Keogan  It was caving in. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fiona O'Loughlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Fiona O'Loughlin  In terms of the comment, you used the words \"caving in\". "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sharon Keogan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Sharon Keogan  You never listen to the pro-life campaign voice. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fiona O'Loughlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Fiona O'Loughlin  Sinn F\u00e9in had every right to bring this motion forward. It was a separate motion. The similarity with the Social Democrats' motion was the issue of the three-day wait but there were two separate motions. Sinn F\u00e9in, or any party, has the right to bring in a motion it wishes to have, so we cannot condemn anybody for bringing a motion in that is within Standing Orders.  Senator Murphy O\u2019Mahony spoke about Men\u2019s Health Week and the fact men are sometimes slow to get things checked out. The motto of the campaign this year is \"One Step at a Time - Progress not Perfection\". We echo that call and encourage all men to go and have the checks done with their local GP.  Senator Andrews spoke about Cuba facing difficult times with the blockades by the US Government. There is huge concern about shortages of goods coming into the country and we are, sadly, seeing a decline in international law. I agree there is a false propaganda narrative that we need to stand up to.  Senator Crowe spoke about the criminal legal aid scheme, the changes due to come in on 1 July and the fact there is strike action at this time. He outlined the reasons for this in terms of the financial provisions for solicitors and the fact they will be changed. It is always important we look at reforms. It is always important we look at the ways taxpayers' money is spent. It is very frustrating for a lot of people when we see court cases being adjourned all of the time, and that is part of the problem here. Within the judicial system, I cannot understand how they do not work on a more efficient system and not have cases repeatedly adjourned. It is hard on everybody and it is particularly hard in family law as well. It is good the Department is engaging with the Law Society. We want to have a consensus on to how we go forward on this.  Senator McCarthy about the report on homelessness and the differences between 2016 and now. I note the Minister at the time is no longer in politics. The Senator is right that we have to look at ways to prevent homelessness, which is especially difficult for families, of course, and for the older generation. There are many different issues as to why people find themselves homeless. The report Senator McCarthy is referring to will be laid before both Houses and I will look for a debate in the Seanad on it. Again, we have to go back to how we started the debate this morning on the very significant funding announced this week that will lead to the unlocking of a lot of lands for housing.  Senator Harmon spoke about Carlow College and the concerns there. I happened to be talking to the Minister, Deputy Lawless, about this issue, unofficially. I acknowledge all the excellent work Carlow College has been doing for many years. I know the fact it will be coming under SETU means there will be a lot of progress in a lot of areas for the students, the courses and those who work there. I think that, genuinely, this decision was made in the interests of all involved. However, the Minister did acknowledge to me when we had the conversation that he had put it in writing to Carlow College three different times that there would be proper consultation with the students and all of those who worked there and that did not seem to happen. That is very regrettable. Absolutely, there should be more clarity and the consultation should have started at a far earlier stage. It is important it happens now to bring clarity to everybody involved.  Senator Harmon also spoke about student homelessness. It is particularly difficult, and I have come across a few situations myself, when the students are estranged from their families and that does happen. It is sad but it happens. Then, sometimes the students are not eligible for SUSI if the parents' income is above the income limit, even though, thankfully, the limit has gone up quite a bit now. It is concerning and we need to look at the issue. The Minister, Deputy Lawless, was in the Seanad because we asked him to come when Senator Harmon had requested we have a debate on student accommodation, etc. To be fair, he was here about three weeks ago but we will look to bring him in again.  Senators Boyhan, Duffy and Scahill also gave their good wishes to Senators Ahearn and Cathal Byrne in terms of the leadership positions they will be taking up here. Senator Duffy spoke about the community of Strade in Mayo that used to be on the number 52 bus route that connected Ballina to Galway and it was very important in linking the population there to Foxford and to Ballina. We support that. It is so important that people are connected to their larger towns and to the services those larger towns have. It is good that when Bus \u00c9ireann ceased the bus route, Citylink took over. We should ask the NTA to intervene. I have always found the NTA to be very helpful when I have gone to it, and Mr. Richard Kelly who is the Oireachtas liaison person, is always at the end of the phone. Public transport needs to be affordable and accessible. Good luck to Senator Duffy and to the local councillors who are also working on this.  Senator Sarah O'Reilly spoke about local authorities and their big workloads. She spoke about comments made by the T\u00e1naiste about dereliction, etc. There certainly are a lot of problems when you are dealing with dereliction and many of them come down to legal issues around title, probate, etc.  It is important that we always work with local authorities. I appreciate the difficult job that they have to do and that policy changes and decisions that come from different Departments. I would not use the word \"diktats\", which was used. It is important that we work collectively on behalf of the people who we represent on local authorities and at national level.  Senator Scahill gave us a bird's eye view of everything that is happening in Roscommon. It is great news about Lough Key Forest Park. It is a fabulous amenity. It is quite a number of years since I was there, so I might just take up the Senator's invitation. Strokestown Park House is fabulous too. The Senator mentioned the Night and Day Festival. Maybe some day we might get down to it, if the Senator organises the buses. It is very good news and it is important that we showcase our counties, which might not be the first ones that spring to mind for tourism, including my own in Kildare. We have so much to showcase in our beautiful country and we need to do everything that we can to support it. That supports the small local business such as coffee shops, restaurants and pubs. I thank the Senator for highlighting that and we wish everybody who is connected well. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Order of Business agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionra\u00ed ar 11.32 a.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 11.35 a.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Sitting suspended at 11.32 a.m. and resumed at 11.35 a.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"An tOrd Gn\u00f3 - Order of Business"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-18\/debate\/dbsect_11","debateType":"debate","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/1","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/1\/seanad\/2","houseCode":"seanad","stage":"2","isBillStage":true,"showAs":"Criminal Law, Civil Law and Defence (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2026: Second Stage (Seanad)"}},"showAs":"Criminal Law, Civil Law and Defence (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2026: Second Stage","counts":{"speechCount":28,"speakerCount":13},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_11","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Anne Rabbitte","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Anne-Rabbitte.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Anne-Rabbitte.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Laura Harmon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robbie Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael McDowell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","memberCode":"Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Kelleher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Kelleher.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Garret-Kelleher.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanne Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sharon Keogan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patricia Stephenson","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sarah O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alison Comyn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question proposed: \"That the Bill be now read a Second Time.\""},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  I welcome the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, and his officials. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Justice, Home Affairs and Migration (Deputy Jim O'Callaghan)  Senators will be aware that miscellaneous provisions Bills provide a great opportunity for the Executive but, more importantly, for the Legislature to pass legislation in a variety of different areas promptly and effectively. That is what I am doing in this legislation. The Bill is divided into 75 sections across 16 Parts and one Schedule. Part 1 contains standard provisions. Part 2 amends the Firearms Act 1925 and the Prisons Act 2007 to provide a basis for the possession, carriage and use of incapacitant sprays by prison officers in the course of their duties. I believe that is necessary for prison officers. Part 2 further amends the Firearms Act to enable the garda\u00ed to seize and detain a lawfully held firearm or ammunition for up to 14 days where the member reasonably suspects a danger to public safety, security or the peace. I also believe that is a very necessary measure in light of the threat that can arise to the public from those who lawfully hold firearms.  Part 3 amends the Courts of Justice Act 1924, the Courts Service Act 1998 and the Judicial Council Act 2019 to empower the overworked Chief Justice to delegate certain non-judicial functions to other members of the Judiciary. Part 4 amends the Defence Act 1954. These were amendments tabled on Committee Stage by my colleague, the Minister, Deputy McEntee. They are amendments to strengthen the powers of the Defence Forces in safeguarding the security of the State in certain circumstances arising in the territorial sea or internal waters of the State or where there is a risk to the sovereign rights and jurisdiction of the State. It also makes express affirmatory provision in primary law for the deployment of members of the Defence Forces in aid of the civil power. That is when An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na requests the assistance of the Defence Forces, which happens frequently throughout the year. Finally, there are provisions relating to the protection of military installations by the Defence Forces.  Part 5 amends the Extradition Act 1965 to empower Garda members to provisionally arrest, without a warrant, persons named in Schengen information system, SIS, alerts from Switzerland and Liechtenstein. This amendment is necessary if the SIS is to operate as intended in such cases. Part 6 amends the Criminal Justice (Community Service) Act 1983 to oblige the courts to consider a community service order in lieu of a prison sentence of up to 24 months. At present, that is only 12 months. It will increase from 240 to 480 the maximum community service hours that a judge may order. Those provisions will assist in ensuring that people who may not need go to prison do not go to prison and that they do community service instead.  Part 7 relates to criminal evidence. Section 16 amends section 19A of the Criminal Evidence Act 1992 to restrict the disclosure of counselling records and other personal records in sexual offence trials. Senators will be aware that in 2017 legislation was enacted by both Houses of the Oireachtas to try to restrict such disclosure. Unfortunately, that legislation did not fulfil its intended purpose. My amendments delete the waiver provision contained in section 19A, which has all too often meant that victims have failed to benefit from the protections which the legislation provides. From now on, every time that such counselling notes or personal records are sought by the defence, a judge will carefully scrutinise the material and make an impartial and objective decision on whether disclosure is warranted. My amendments also provide for a presumption of non-disclosure, ensuring that the default position is that these records are not to be disclosed. The exception to this is where the court is satisfied, after examining the record, that it is likely to be relevant to an issue at trial and there would be a real risk of an unfair trial in the absence of such disclosure, or it is otherwise in the interests of justice to so order. As I have been repeatedly reminded by the Attorney General, I cannot introduce an outright ban on counselling notes, as that would be unconstitutional. I cannot introduce an outright ban on any personal records.  The scheme put in place here will ensure that a judge will carefully examine any records and they will only be disclosed if necessary for the purpose of ensuring there is not an unfair trial and also to ensure that it is in the interests of justice.  The amended legislation sets out a two-stage process, inserting a filtering stage in respect of disclosure applications. This mechanism will eliminate \"fishing expeditions\" by requiring that the likely relevance of a record be shown before any disclosure is even contemplated. The legislation expands the protections of section 19A to include medical records, child protection records and social work records. There has been extensive consultation with stakeholders. In terms of that consultation, I believe this is an appropriate course to adopt.  I recently had the opportunity of having a successful and illuminating meeting, organised by Deputy Shane Moynihan, with a group called Beyond Surviving. It is a survivor-led charity. It was a very informative discussion, and I became aware that there are clearly different views in the survivor community on the disclosure of counselling notes. I think it is important that we all reflect on and listen to other perspectives. Irrespective of the legal mechanism, we need to have supports in place for people who have gone through sexual assaults or sex trials and have recognised that the trauma of doing that is very significant.  Section 17 amends the Criminal Justice Act 1993 to provide that where a person is convicted of any indictable offence, character evidence for sentencing purposes must be given on oath or by affidavit.  Section 18 amends the Criminal Justice Act 1999 to provide that Garda staff, in addition to Garda members, as is already the case, may prepare and sign certificates of evidence relating to custody of exhibits.  Part 8 amends various enactments to reassign from the Department of foreign affairs to my Department the responsibility for certifying Irish citizenship where it is relevant to the prosecution of offences.  Part 9 amends the European Arrest Warrant Act 2003.  Part 10 amends the Criminal Justice Act 2006 to provide that where a person entering into a suspended sentence bond is in prison custody, the governor may take the recognisance.  Part 11 amends the International Criminal Court Act 2006 to give effect to the State\u2019s intended ratification of the amendments to Article 8 of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, ICC, and to explicitly provide that the State can co-operate with the ICC with respect to requests.  Part 12 amends the Criminal Justice (Forensic Evidence and DNA Database System) Act 2014 to allow Forensic Science Ireland, FSI, to generate profiles derived from the analysis of coding DNA for identification purposes in cases relating to missing and unknown persons.  Part 13 amends the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act 2017 to criminalise the exploitative behaviour commonly referred to as \"sex for rent\" by creating new offences of offering or advertising accommodation in exchange for sexual activity. I commend Senator Harmon on previously putting forward legislation in this House that I said I would adopt, and this is my adoption of it.  Part 14 provides a permanent regulatory basis under which licensed premises may provide outdoor seating on public land.  Part 15 provides for an application-based scheme to enable the disregard of certain historical convictions, cautions and probation orders relating to consensual sexual activity between men. The scheme will create a basis by which an eligible conviction can effectively be nullified so that its recipient is treated in law as if it never happened.  Part 16 contains miscellaneous amendments. Section 65 amends the Criminal Procedure Act 1967 to provide that where a person entering into a bail bond is in Garda custody, the Garda can take the recognisance. Section 66 amends the Civil Legal Aid Act 1995 consequential on the Bill\u2019s amendment of section 19A of the Criminal Evidence Act 1992 about personal records. Section 67 amends the Schedule to the Bail Act 1997 to add several new offences to the Schedule. Section 68 amends the Children Act 2001 to lower from superintendent to inspector the minimum Garda rank that may apply to court for an antisocial behaviour order. Section 69 amends the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005 to enable the courts to use the personal public service number, PPSN, to verify the identity of persons submitting documents. Section 70 amends the Multi-Unit Developments Act 2011 to transfer functions under the Act from me as Minister to the Minister for housing. Section 71 amends the Prisons Act 2015 to provide that I, as Minister, may direct that a person be taken from prison to effect a deportation or removal order where two years or less of their sentence remains. Sections 72 to 75 contain various technical amendments to a variety of legislation.  I conclude by saying I will bring forward a number of amendments on Committee Stage, namely, provisions to enable the expanded use of electronic technology in criminal proceedings, provisions for certificate evidence of Garda presumptive drug testing in certain proceedings, and a new Garda power under the Public Order Act 1994 to require the removal of face coverings in certain prescribed circumstances.  I also intend to bring forward two important security-related amendments. One is to extend the State's passenger name record, PNR, system. The second is to amend the Wireless Telegraphy Act 1926. It is important to have these security-related amendments in place.  This is a diverse Bill, and there is a lot of material in it. In the D\u00e1il, there was general support for a lot of its Parts, but there was criticism too that I was putting too much into it. I will not apologise for that. I know from my experience of politics that the ministerial life comes and goes very quickly. You are better off trying to get things done as promptly as possible. If many of these proposals were not pushed forward in a miscellaneous provisions Bill, we would still be talking about them in years to come. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Anne Rabbitte","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Anne-Rabbitte.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Anne-Rabbitte.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Anne Rabbitte)  Is it agreed that Senator Harmon will take her speaking slot now because she has another commitment? If there is agreement from the House, we can facilitate this happening. Is that agreed? Agreed. I call Senator Harmon. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Laura Harmon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Laura Harmon  I thank the House for facilitating me to speak earlier. I welcome the Minister to the House, and commend him on taking action on so many important areas. The first Bill I introduced to the Houses of the Oireachtas through the Seanad was on the issue of sex for rent, which is a terrible practice that needs to be outlawed. It is extremely welcome, therefore, that this aspect is being included in this legislation. We will be seeking to make some amendments on Committee Stage in relation to the Bill as a whole as well as to the sex for rent provision. I hope to engage with the Minister on those amendments, especially in ensuring there is access to legal assistance and specialist supports for victims of this practice, including clear referral pathways and trauma-informed services.  I agree with the coalition campaigning on this issue of sex for rent and advocating for it to be included as a form of violence within Cuan\u2019s domestic, sexual and gender-based violence strategy, and for dedicated training for An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na to be provided in relation to this aspect. Greater protections for renters are also needed. I know this is a matter for the Minister for housing as well. In particular, there is a need for protection in precarious rental situations, including digs accommodation. We need to ensure that there is effective enforcement in terms of banning these ads online. I think this should be under the remit of the online safety commissioner. Those are a number of areas we will be looking at in terms of amendments. The Minister took action on this issue of sex for rent swiftly during his term. When it comes to this issue of sex for rent, we have been waiting too long. This will send a clear message to perpetrators that this is not acceptable and it needs to be outlawed. We look forward to further debate on this provision on Committee Stage.  I also welcome the area of disregard in the Bill. For many decades, the State criminalised gay men because of who they were and who they loved. In Pride Month, it is fitting that we are debating this legislation. I mention the work of my colleague, Deputy Ged Nash, who has made sure that this matter has stayed on the agenda over many years. Those men who were wrongly criminalised should get justice. The Labour Party is proud to see this happening after many years of campaigning. It is a landmark moment for this country\u2019s treatment of LGBTQI+ people. We look forward to further debate on Committee Stage.  It goes without saying, but people across this House are in agreement in relation to the concerning issue of counselling notes being used during trials. We all agree as a starting point that the use of counselling notes in trials is a problem. We do not want to see counselling notes used in trials in this way. The Minister\u2019s amendments have made some progress. The National Women\u2019s Council of Ireland, NWCI, has said that the measures in this Bill are a step that will ensure greater scrutiny of the disclosure of counselling records, giving victims greater protection, but, in our view, they do not go far enough. Again, therefore, we will be seeking to have further debate on this provision on Committee Stage in the Seanad and will be bringing forward further amendments.  The right to a fair trial is, of course, something that needs to be protected.  There are deep concerns in this area. We must always put the well-being of the victims at the centre of this and that needs to be protected. We look forward to further debate on this. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robbie Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Robbie Gallagher  The Minister is welcome back to the House. I wish to comment on his concluding remarks on his term as Minister and his ambitions in that portfolio. As everyone in this House can see, his work ethic and enthusiasm for bringing change are admirable and very much welcome. I commend him sincerely on that.  Fianna F\u00e1il very much supports this Bill. As the Minister outlined, it responds to a wide range of challenges in the justice system. It is very practical legislation covering a wide range of areas. It delivers a range of practical reforms across our justice system aimed at protecting vulnerable people, improving public safety, reducing pressures on our prisons and making the administration of justice more efficient, which is a very admirable goal I am sure we all agree with.  One of the most important measures is the criminalisation of so-called sex-for-rent arrangements which, as the previous speaker alluded to, has been an issue for quite some time. The Bill makes it an offence to offer or advertise accommodation in exchange for sexual activity. There is a clear abuse of powers that exploits vulnerable people who are often in a very vulnerable housing situation. This legislation will send a strong message that such behaviour will not be tolerated any longer.  The Bill also strengthens the protections for victims of sexual offences which again is very welcome. It reforms the process surrounding the disclosure of counselling records in requiring a court hearing in every case where disclosure is sought. This ensures that an independent judge will assess whether records are relevant, helping to protect complainants\u2019 privacy, while maintaining the right to a fair trial. That is very welcome mechanism.  A further key objective is to address prison overcrowding which the Minister is familiar with. The Bill encourages greater use of community service orders by requiring courts to consider them as an alternative to prison sentences of up to two years, and by increasing the maximum number of community service hours that may be imposed. That is a hugely positive incentive. We can do much more there and I am glad that the Minister is expanding that role. I see at first hand in my neck of the woods the huge contribution those people are making to society generally. I have spoken to a number of them. It has created a new very positive pathway for them compared with the negative one they had found themselves on. I am very much in favour of that. This in turn will help reserve prison spaces for offenders who genuinely require imprisonment while ensuring appropriate punishment and rehabilitation in suitable cases. The legislation also improves safety within our prisons by removing the legal barrier preventing prison officers from using incapacitant spray. Any use of such equipment will be carefully regulated - rightly so - and limited to trained officers in appropriate circumstances.  The Bill also modernises our approach to missing persons investigations by allowing more advanced DNA analysis techniques, increasing the likelihood of identifying missing, unknown and deceased persons, and providing answers for families seeking closure. In addition, it introduces practical measures to improve efficiency across the justice system, including facilitating remote appearance through video-link technology, reducing the unnecessary demands on garda\u00ed and prison resources, and allowing the Chief Justice to delegate certain administrative functions to other members of the Judiciary. Again, that is a very sensible and practical approach, allowing us to free up our garda\u00ed to stay on the streets where we all like to see their presence.  On the civil law side, the Bill also provides the legal framework for outdoor seating and licensed premises, supporting businesses and social activities in towns and cities across the country. That has been a hugely positive development that came out of the Covid pandemic - one of the very few positive outcomes from it. It is a hugely successful initiative that helps the economic and social activity in our towns. It is very positive on a summer\u2019s evening to see people sitting out having a coffee, a beer or whatever.  Overall, this is very sensible and balanced legislation. It strengthens protections for victims, supports front-line justice services, promotes rehabilitation where appropriate and modernises important areas of law and public administration. For those reasons, on behalf of the Fianna F\u00e1il group, I fully support and welcome this legislation. I again commend the Minister on the enthusiasm with which he is carrying out his role. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Anne Rabbitte","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Anne-Rabbitte.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Anne-Rabbitte.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Anne Rabbitte)  Before moving on, I welcome Deputy Sorca Clarke to the Distinguished Visitors Gallery. She is accompanied by Lisa Kirwan, Violeta Bobyleva, Jane Atli, Emma Noonan, Ann Bellew and Mary Murray. They are very welcome and I hope they have a lovely experience here today in Leinster House. We had a school group in from Scoil \u00cdosag\u00e1in in Coolgreany, County Wexford who are guests of Deputy \u00d3 S\u00failleabh\u00e1in. They have left. I hope they get no homework and are well looked after. Everybody else in the Visitors Gallery is very welcome. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael McDowell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","memberCode":"Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Michael McDowell  I welcome the Minister here today. I indicate my support in general for this Bill and for the initiative the Minister is taking in proposing a Bill with a diverse category of miscellaneous provisions in it. I agree with him completely that it is difficult to organise legislative time and difficult to get measures through the Attorney General's office and the parliamentary draftsman\u2019s office. If everything is done in a segmented way as the Minister implied, a lot of worthwhile initiatives will be postponed or never addressed even when there would be in general terms a consensus right across the political spectrum that the amendments or the provisions of the Bill or similar Bills are desirable.  The Bill is a comprehensive Bill and cannot be rushed through. Some of the individual components are non-controversial and I presume will not cause any significant delay. However, in respect of some items, for instance the provisions in relation to the cancellation effectively as a matter of law of homosexual convictions, need to be looked at quite carefully indeed.  Putting in place a specific power in the Defence Act covering acting in aid of the civil power is a very wise provision. As somebody who actually in my time did act in aid of the civil power a long time ago, I often wondered precisely what the authority was for my deployment, sitting in a ditch on the Concession Road along the Border with a with a machine gun in my hand and garda\u00ed carrying out road checks on vehicles and passengers. I wondered precisely what our rights were in the circumstance. We believed that we were there to protect the garda\u00ed and to use our weapons to protect their lives if necessary but it was not very clear to us what would happen if any of us inflicted injury on somebody else in this context.  In respect of aid of the civil power, subsection 5 of the new section 40B refers to assistance provided by the Defence Forces to An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na under this section. That possibly could be widened to the Prison Service. I am thinking back to Portlaoise and to occasions when there was a threat of industrial action in the Prison Service which could have given rise to a State emergency.  When I was Minister, we had the Defence Forces carry out surveys of the prisons with a view to ensuring the safety of the State. That is something that could be looked at.  I also believe that the protection of military installations provision is very important. If people invade an Army barracks, what force can be used to repel them? This at least sets out a test that as long as the force used to defend the security facility is reasonable, proportionate and necessary, it is lawful. I am glad to see that kind of provision being expressly stated.  One thing I would say to the Minister about legislation of this kind is that because it is so miscellaneous in its character, it is important that the process of reflecting its contents in restatements of statutes is carried out because otherwise you will be looking at what appear to be complete statutes and you will not know that a change was made to that statute in Part 12 of this Bill. Whereas I welcome the idea of miscellaneous provisions Bills, they have to be, in my view, married to transparency in the Statute Book by means of ensuring that anybody who looks up the revised statutes will find an appropriate reference to the changes that were made here.  I could spend time talking about the individual portions of it but I will not do that. I will raise one matter with the Minister, and that is that a lot of what is going on at the moment in terms of registers and the like presupposes that people are easily identified. I was checking up today on the method of changing your name by deed poll and I would invite Members of this House to look at the register of deed poll activity. It is quite substantial. Some of it seems to be people changing their names to reflect their gender status change under gender recognition legislation but others are mildly surprising. If the Minister is to have protection for victims of domestic violence and registration of those people, a lot of the good involved in that is cleared away if somebody can simply change their name and bash on. It occurred to me, for instance, that to change your name by deed poll, you should at least give your address. In the register, your address does not appear and if Se\u00e1n Power becomes Se\u00e1n McMahon, nobody knows where that person is. He could be in Donegal. He could be in Wexford. Nobody knows who that person is. That is a point.  Another issue the Minister should think about, and maybe it is for another miscellaneous provisions Bill, is, where people have been convicted of offences, to make it a requirement that the deed poll provisions are controlled to some extent in that at least there is notification to the authorities and some notification on the register, especially in the case of people who have been the subject of recent convictions that they do not simply change their name and walk off into the sunshine as if nothing had happened.  Those are merely some reflections I have. I welcome the legislation and I look forward to adequate time being given on Committee Stage to each of the pieces because a lot of people would say there is nothing controversial in this Bill but there are things which need to be carefully looked at to see whether they will have the effect that the draftsman and the Minister intend and that the House would intend in approving them. From that point of view, there is no rush with this. I am not suggesting that we should delay it in any way but I would like the opportunity, for instance, to look at some of the provisions relating to disregarding convictions to see whether they will work. I notice, for instance, that somebody who gets a disregard procedure in their favour is not required, as a matter of any requirement of any foreign government, to disclose that conviction, which is fine. That is a good idea, but how do the Americans, for instance, deal with that? It is a question. I wonder are they on-side, so to speak, with somebody simply saying that they have never been convicted of a serious offence. Have we the understanding that you could not be dumped out of America for lying even though the Irish law seems to say you can tell the Americans you have no conviction? It is a point I would like to have explored.  I welcome the Minister, I commend him on his activity and industry, and look forward to this Bill being properly considered. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Anne Rabbitte","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Anne-Rabbitte.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Anne-Rabbitte.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Anne Rabbitte)  Before I call the next speaker, I welcome the Now Group to the Gallery on both sides. They all are very welcome. They are guests here today of Deputy Pa Daly. I thank them for being here with us. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Kelleher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Kelleher.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Garret-Kelleher.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Kelleher  Thar cheann Fhine Gael, cuirim f\u00e1ilte roimh an Aire agus cuirim f\u00e1ilte roimh an Bille um an Dl\u00ed Coiri\u00fail, an Dl\u00ed Sibhialta agus Cosaint (For\u00e1lacha Ilghn\u00e9itheacha), 2026. On behalf of the Fine Gael Group, I welcome all 75 sections of the Bill before us today and the consequential amendments that will be made to existing Acts in the areas of criminal law, civil law and defence.  Parts 2 and 6 and section 71 all relate directly or indirectly to the Prison Service. Part 2 seeks to provide an exemption for prison officers to use incapacitant sprays in the course of their duties, amending the Firearms Act 1925 and the Prisons Act 2007, which was referred to by both the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, and Senator Gallagher in their remarks.  Part 6 relates to the increased scope and applicability of community service orders in lieu of imprisonment. Given that this morning the Irish Prison Service is operating with total numbers exceeding capacity by 24%, including the highest rates of overcrowding in the prisons for women, in Mountjoy and Limerick, with Limerick Women's Prison operating at 164% of capacity or, in other words, 92 women in custody with a bed capacity of 56, the proposal to increase the scope and applicability of community service orders will help in this regard where appropriate. Section 71 relates to an amendment to the Prisons Act and to a proposed increase in the time threshold for the possible deportation or removal of a prisoner.  Parts 5 and 11 are related to international co-operation. This is something we discussed yesterday afternoon in relation to opting in and the importance of international co-operation in our laws to strengthen law enforcement at a national level. Part 5, which amends the Extradition Act 1965, is an important step in increasing the powers of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na to provisionally arrest, without a warrant, persons named in Schengen Information System, while part Part 7 relates to improved co-operation with the International Criminal Court. Both are important steps.  Briefly, I will make reference to part 13 in particular to use it as an opportunity to commend the collaborative work by our colleague Senator Harmon and, indeed, Senator Stephenson with the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan. The result of the collaborative work in introducing two new offences in the exploitative practice of sex for rent is an important progressive step and is an excellent example of the co-operation that exists, particularly when suggested progressive steps of this nature come from the Opposition.  That is very important. As has been alluded to and referenced by a number of contributors today, I also welcome Part 15 of the Bill, which provides for the disregarding of historical convictions relating to the consensual sexual activity of gay men which, again, is a belated acknowledgement of the wrongs of previous legislation. It is an important step.  On the whole, I would like to commend and compliment the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, and all those with whom he worked in putting together this wide-ranging and progressive Bill, which has the full support of the Fine Gael group. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanne Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joanne Collins  As has been said across the floor by many speakers, this very wide-ranging Bill covers a variety of matters across criminal law, civil law and defence. There are provisions within this that Sinn F\u00e9in does agree with and will support. There are also areas where we will be seeking significant improvements as we push through with this legislation.  My principal concern today, however, relates to one of the most sensitive and important issues combined in this Bill, which is the disclosure of counselling and therapy records in sexual violence trials. For years, survivors of sexual violence have told us that one of the most daunting aspects of pursuing justice is the fear that their private counselling notes may be sought, examined and used in court proceedings. Many survivors access counselling in order to process trauma, rebuild their lives and begin a journey of recovery. They do so with the expectation of privacy and confidentiality. The prospect that deeply personal discussions with a therapist could later become the subject of legal scrutiny can be a significant deterrent to seeking support and, indeed, reporting sexual offences in the first place. That reality must be recognised when we are dealing with this legislation. We must ensure that victims and survivors are not placed in a position where they feel they must choose between accessing counselling and pursuing the justice they so deserve. The challenge, of course, is to strike an appropriate balance between protecting the privacy and dignity of complainants while safeguarding the constitutional right of an accused person to a fair trial. This is not an easy balance to achieve, but it is precisely because it is such a sensitive and complex issue that it deserves careful consideration and considered and comprehensive legislative scrutiny. The Minister said he has amendments coming forward on this, but we need to ensure that this legislation creates a strong presumption against the disclosure of counselling records unless the court is satisfied that disclosure is genuinely a necessity in the interest of justice. We need clear safeguards for this. We need robust protections and, above all, we need a system that recognises the unique vulnerability of victims of sexual violence. If we fail to get this right, the consequences could be fewer victims coming forward, fewer victims seeking support and a further erosion in confidence in the criminal justice system when it comes to these cases. That cannot be allowed to happen.  A second concern relates to the manner in which the legislation has been assembled. It is another miscellaneous provisions Bill containing a broad range of unrelated matters, including significant amendments relating to the Defence Forces powers. There are elements to those defence provisions that many of us support, particularly measures aimed at strengthening maritime security and protecting our territorial waters. Sinn F\u00e9in has for a long time argued that successive Governments have neglected Ireland's maritime security capabilities and that greater investment and stronger legal powers are required. However, it is difficult to understand why such significant defence matters have been attached to a miscellaneous provisions justice Bill at such a late stage in the legislative process. Those provisions were not part of the original scrutiny process. They were not examined by the committee with responsibility for defence matters. They raise important questions regarding oversight, accountability and the role of the Defence Forces in aid of the civil power. Regardless of whether one would support or oppose these measures, they deserve proper scrutiny in their own right and I hope we get the opportunity on Committee Stage to go through those that have not been gone through yet.  That broader issue speaks to a recurring problem in how legislation is brought before the House. I mean that in terms of the amount that is in one Bill and the different areas it covers, and being given enough time to actually get through these because sometimes Committee Stage can be cut short. I know the Minister tries to give as much time as possible to these, so when we have such a wide-ranging Bill, it would be nice to get a little bit of extra time. Complex and significant reforms are increasingly being bundled together in miscellaneous provisions Bills, limiting opportunities for detailed examination and reducing transparency in the legislation process. Good legislation requires time, engagement and scrutiny, like I already said. Nowhere is it more important than dealing with survivors of sexual violence. As the Bill progresses, Sinn F\u00e9in will continue to engage constructively. We will support measures that strengthen protections for victims and improve access to justice. We will also be seeking amendments, where necessary, particularly in relation to the counselling notes because survivors deserve legislation that reflects both the reality of the trauma and the need for justice. The ultimate objective must be a criminal justice system that protects victims, respects constitutional rights and encourages survivors to come forward with confidence. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alice-Mary Higgins  I would not agree that gathering as many pieces together and moving them forward at once is actually a good approach, especially when it includes components it has been signalled may be introduced that have not had the proper pre-legislative scrutiny. I recognise that miscellaneous provisions legislation is a mechanism that has been used in the past, but I worry in general about the stretch of this. It worries me when elements that are known to be deeply controversial are being added into Bills that are long awaited. It reminds me of a move towards the American approach whereby attack drones and tax cuts get put in the same Bill as school meals and access to hospital equipment. This kind of amalgam involves things that people really want, and may have pressed for over a long period, being placed alongside something that is known to be controversial and, in some cases, deeply problematic for those same advocates. There is a practice as well - not solely here, as we have seen it at European level as well - of introducing omnibus Bills in which vast amounts of law are untangled at the same time. It creates challenges and issues in terms of proper scrutiny and proper decision-making. It may seem clever or convenient, but it does not make for really good laws that have very strong and clear parliamentary mandates. Rather, people feel painted into a corner. Another recent example of this was the Critical Infrastructure Bill. Everybody supports critical infrastructure, but we were told that if we wanted to support it, we had to accept dilutions of the climate law which were in the mix as well.  There are positive elements with this Bill that I acknowledge and welcome, which I am sure we will tease out. I want to recognise the work of others which led to this work. It is welcome that the Bill, in Part 15, includes provisions to disregard historical convictions for homosexuality. I recognise the work of a former Member of this House, Fintan Warfield, on that issue. The Bill addresses, in some sense, the provisions around sex for rent. I acknowledge that the Labour Party and others have really led in relation to this issue. It also includes practical provisions, such as those in relation to street furniture. There are, therefore, elements that are positive and need to be teased out. It is good to see them moving forward.  However, there are also really concerning components that need and, in some cases have not had, full, detailed evaluation. There are provisions that may seem to be small but are significant, like Part 2 in terms of the incapacitant spray for prison officers, which I am going to come back to in a moment. That is there without any appropriate provisions for monitoring and reporting on the use of it. Senator Ruane, who was part of the scrutiny of this, has recommended a provision around a human rights analysis of how that is used.  I note that Ireland is one of the few countries where prison officers do not use this spray and rely on capacity to manage and de-escalate conflict without the use of force or violence. Again, it is in keeping with the idea of Ireland being a place where the majority of garda\u00ed are not equipped with weapons. It is about policing by consent and with buy-in from the community. That is something which should be valued and weighed very carefully. While the introduction of the spray is maybe with an eye to ensure greater safety in prisons, if we look at other jurisdictions, it does not seem to have positively impacted the level of violence in prisons but it has often negatively impacted and destabilised relationships between prison officers and prisoners. In a number of instances in the UK studies have shown disproportionate use of incapacitant sprays against minority communities in prisons, including Black, Muslim and disabled prisoners, which has the effect of normalising the use of violence against particular groups within the prison environment. There is a huge amount to be examined there. Simply allowing for it without proper measures in terms of monitoring and reporting risks a disimprovement at a time when the situation has been improving somewhat, in that the Irish Prison Service notes there has been a decrease in physical assaults by prisoners and aggressive and threatening incidents fell by 8% last year. Tools are being used that need to be deployed and the proposed benefit of this is something that, at a minimum, requires proper monitoring and regulation.  Part 5 allows for garda\u00ed to arrest and seize property from individuals they suspect may be subject to an extradition request without a warrant. It very substantially extends the period they may be held in detention before any certificate would come from the Minister. There is concern in relation to that. Concerns have been highlighted about the provision of aid to the civil power, including the use of the Defence Forces. The point was well made that this is something the defence committee should have had the opportunity to examine. We do need to think about it in terms of scenarios whereby, for example, we know there will be an increase in public assemblies and demonstrations during Ireland's Presidency of the Council of the European Union. If there is deployment of members of the Defence Forces, there are concerns about how that is going to align with Ireland's human rights obligations. That is the kind of teasing out that could have been done with the proper scrutiny of this issue in both committees.  I also note the intention signalled to introduce amendments on the removal of face coverings. I note there are a number of reasons, including reasons of health and religion and the protection of privacy, where persons may wish to wear a face covering. There are already powers under section 5 relating to disorderly conduct, threatening behaviour and failure to comply with a direction to address behaviours that are problematic, but if simply having a face covering becomes a matter in itself, then there are very significant concerns in relation to that.  I will signal what is perhaps the most crucial issue, namely, the disclosure of counselling records. It is unacceptable that people would be asked to choose between healing and justice. The Minister knows that the joint committee focused intently on this issue. Members talked about the traumatic impact the disclosure of a person's counselling records can have on survivors of sexual violence. We talked about the decisions people make. We know how many people fail to seek justice in relation to sexual abuse and violence. We have a crisis of confidence among victims of sexual violence in the system. Rather than strengthening the confidence such victims would have in a system that has consistently failed them, which leads to an extraordinary level of under-reporting and under-prosecution of this kind of offence, we are in fact driving them further away from the seeking of justice. A complete ban on the use of counselling records is something the committee sought. It is a matter that will reflect very poorly on us in the future. It will have a chilling effect on justice. The Minister will not be surprised to hear that we will strongly oppose those elements on Committee Stage. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sharon Keogan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Sharon Keogan  I was not expecting to be up so soon. I support many of the provisions the Minister is introducing in this Bill. We have been rolled into this House so many times regarding the extension of the permanent regulatory basis under which licensed premises may provide outdoor seating on public lands. The Government gave more than \u20ac20 million to provide the hospitality sector with outdoor seating during Covid. Every six months we had to come in here and extend the power, so I am absolutely delighted with this measure, which gives certainty to the sector.  I am a little bit concerned about a couple of things. The first is in light of the protests we had recently. I refer to the deployment of members of the Defence Forces as an aid to the civil power. Nobody wants to see civil unrest in this country but the Defence Forces do not want to be some sort of back-up riot squad either. There must be processes, checks and balances and standard operating procedures. On reflection, going back to the recent protest, maybe things would have been done differently if we could do them again. Things were said and the Defence Forces were called in. The decision might have been made differently if there were proper supports for An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na at the time. I have an issue with that. That is one of my big concerns.  These miscellaneous provisions Bills are fantastic for bringing in all kinds of things. Is there anything the Minister can do in relation to the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act? I do not know whether it can be amended or if this is it. I have asked for a debate in this House on the Escorts Ireland website, which advertises sexual services in breach of our legislation. There are more than 900 women advertised on this site every single day. There are human trafficking concerns. The women are often controlled by organised crime gangs that operate in the sex trade. These websites provide anonymity for the buyers and pimps. They are generating millions in profit. The Sexual Exploitation Research and Policy Institute has asked the Minister to take action. Perhaps this is something he might consider. I do not know whether he can add it to the Bill but it is something I certainly would like to see addressed swiftly. The Minister might advise me on whether he can include it. I broadly support the Bill. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patricia Stephenson","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Patricia Stephenson  I find this Bill an incredibly frustrating and cruel way to deal with legislation given the really good initiatives we have, such as the provision of redress for gay men by disregarding their historic convictions under the archaic laws that criminalised homosexuality in Ireland, which I wholeheartedly endorse. We have the ban on sex for rent, which I also wholeheartedly endorse, alongside some incredibly problematic measures such as the one on counselling notes, which is going to be the focus of my speaking time today.  When a victim comes forward to report a sexual assault or rape, it can be one of the most difficult times in their life. What lies ahead is physical examination, where appropriate, making statements to garda\u00ed, an investigation and, if it is possible, a trial. We already know that so many victims and survivors do not come forward and the fact that people choose not to do so, in itself, represents a total failure of the justice system.  When a victim who has been through horrific sexual violence takes the courageous step to access counselling, that should always be done in complete confidence. Counselling notes are an issue of dignity, privacy and whether survivors can access support without fear of their most personal conversations later being scrutinised in a courtroom. Counselling is an essential part of recovery. It is where survivors begin processing their trauma and trying to rebuild their life, and where they try to regain the control over their lives that was taken from them through the sexual violence.  Under this new legislation, those confidential records can be subject to disclosure applications and can be used to challenge a survivor's credibility.  In February, the Minister promised to introduce a presumption of non-disclosure in respect of counselling notes but his proposals today do not provide that. There is no express presumption of non-disclosure because the provisions leave room for the courts to interpret them as not amounting to a statutory privilege. That is a major issue. I urge the Minister to reconsider and to provide an unambiguous statutory presumption of non-disclosure.  Dublin Rape Crisis Centre, DRCC, has identified serious concerns about the threshold for disclosure. Under the Bill, counselling notes can be disclosed not only if there is a risk regarding a fair trial but also on the nebulous ground of \"otherwise in the interests of justice\". I urge the Minister to reconsider this. DRCC has warned its retention in respect of counselling notes will facilitate continued routine applications for disclosure in sexual assault cases, even though we were promised that would not be the case. It is an horrific practice and we cannot allow it to continue.  The Irish Council for Psychotherapy has stated unequivocally that therapy notes are not evidentiary records; they are created with a confidential therapeutic relationship based on trust and safety. When that confidentiality is breached, trust in the entire process is undermined. Counselling notes created to facilitate healing are being weaponised routinely against victims. The decision not to take on board any of the recommendations from survivor groups and advocacy groups during the D\u00e1il Stages of the Bill was incredibly disappointing for many survivors.  Another key gap is mandatory jury warning. Currently, counselling notes and applicable records can be used in trial, even though they contain basically opinions, summaries and interpretations by therapists. They are not intended as factual records of events and the jury must be made aware of their serious limitations as evidence. Therapy notes do not have a judicial purpose. Treating them as if they do fundamentally misunderstands their purpose. Counselling notes are not witness statements.  Evidence from front-line organisations tells us this needs to stop. The National Women's Council of Ireland has consistently highlighted how the disclosure of counselling notes acts as a barrier to reporting sexual violence and accessing support services. DRCC has described the practice as one of the most retraumatising aspects of the criminal justice process. Survivors repeatedly report feeling forced to choose between counselling and seeking justice. The provisions outlined will not see any improvements in that. We cannot be okay with this practice being continued. Confidential therapeutic notes are often sought not because they are evidence of a crime but because they undermine the credibility of a survivor.  It has broader consequences. If survivors fear seeking counselling could jeopardise a future prosecution, some will choose not to get counselling. If it is a question of seeking justice or overcoming traumatising events in life, they will not seek counselling. No survivor should be asked to sacrifice their mental health to preserve access to justice. It is time to end this harmful practice, to protect the confidentiality of counselling and to ensure survivors of sexual violence can pursue both recovery and justice without being forced to choose between them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sarah O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Sarah O'Reilly  The Minister is welcome. I acknowledge the amount of work he does. He is always in here passing legislation and that has to be acknowledged. I support many of the overall aims of the Bill, particularly section 7 on protecting counselling records, but I am disappointed that such an important issue has been bundled into a miscellaneous provisions Bill alongside a range of unrelated matters. The question of counselling notes deserves legislation in its own right. For survivors of sexual violence and domestic abuse, these notes often contain their most private thoughts, fears and experiences. We have heard powerful stories and testimony from victims who felt retraumatised when deeply personal counselling records were disclosed and used in court. The Minister spoke about a presumption against disclosure yet there remain circumstances where disclosure may still occur. Will he outline the reasons for disclosure and the safeguards victims will have?  There are provisions in the Bill about which I have serious reservations. One such provision relates to the introduction of incapacity spray in prisons. Our prison system is under enormous pressure. The Irish Penal Reform Trust has repeatedly warned about deteriorating conditions, staff pressures and the impact overcrowding is having on prisoners and prison officers. The decision to introduce pepper spray into a volatile environment seems misguided. Is the Minister considering expanding capacity in prisons? That should be the first port of call before taking a more combative approach within the Prison Service.  I support aspects of the Bill but am disappointed there are so many issues lumped into one Bill. I intend to table amendments on the next Stage. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Justice, Home Affairs and Migration (Deputy Jim O'Callaghan)  I thank Senators for their contributions. I am conscious that when I introduce a miscellaneous provisions Bill, there will be aspects Members will be supportive of and other aspects they will not be supportive of. That is the nature of a miscellaneous provisions Bill. We will have opportunities through votes on Committee Stage or Report Stage for people to set out their views on individual sections and provisions. Senators are not being deprived of the opportunity to make the political points they wish to make on each section. How long do I have? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alison Comyn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Alison Comyn)  Ten minutes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jim O'Callaghan  Very good. Can I just deal---- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alison Comyn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Alison Comyn)  Actually, as long as you like. My apologies. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jim O'Callaghan  That is very interesting. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alison Comyn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Alison Comyn)  The Minister can wax lyrical. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jim O'Callaghan  I will deal with some of the issues raised. Senators Harmon, Collins, Higgins, Stephenson and O'Reilly spoke on counselling notes. They all expressed support for other elements of the legislation, whether the criminalisation of sex for rent, the disregard scheme or other measures. I am conscious people generally focus on aspects they disagree with, as opposed to those they agree with. Counselling notes are an issue of concern, not just to those five Senators but to others as well. One thing we can all agree on is the current statutory provision is unacceptable. Everyone in D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann agrees with that, everyone here agrees with that and everyone in the sector agrees with that.  The current statutory provision was put in place in 2017 when we tried to resolve this issue through legislative change. It is widely accepted that, notwithstanding the best efforts of Members of the Oireachtas at that time, this was not achieved because the measures introduced did not have an impact on reducing the provision of counselling notes to the defence in sexual assault or rape trials. I want to change that. The easiest thing for me to do would be to do nothing, say it is being considered and I am engaging with the sector and not make a decision on it. I am not prepared to do that because I believe the proposal I have made is the most appropriate and permissible statutory intervention I can make, taking into account the unambiguous advice I have received from the Attorney General.  At present, the provision of counselling notes under the statutory scheme sometimes happens on a routine basis. Part of the reason for that is the provision introduced in 2017 permitted the waiver of the requirement that counselling notes would be inspected. Consequently, for the purposes of getting a trial under way quickly, victims and complainants in such cases were waiving their right to seek a hearing on it. As a result of that, counselling notes were provided and irrelevant and inappropriate cross-examination was attempted for the purpose of trying to rely on the counselling notes.  I am changing that. The way I am changing it is, in the first instance, there must now be a hearing when an accused or the prosecution are seeking access to and use of counselling notes. What will happen under the statutory scheme I have put in place is that a judge will be required to look at the counselling notes and see if there is anything in them that is relevant. The judge will have to determine whether, if he does not disclose the counselling note to the accused, or indeed the prosecution, there will be an unfair trial and whether it is in the interests of justice.  I, as Minister for justice, and Senators, as Member of the Oireachtas, have to take into account that we are dealing with a sensitive and complex issue.  On the one hand, we are dealing with the right to privacy that people have when they go to counselling to ensure their counselling account and narrative are protected. On the other hand, I also have to take into account the right to a fair trial. Sometimes, infrequently, those two rights will conflict. In this legislation, I have to ensure that when those two rights do conflict, there is a fair statutory mechanism to resolve that conflict.  I want people in this House to know that I have introduced a scheme that is slanted as much as possible in favour of the right to privacy, as opposed to the right to a fair trial, as far as I can. I cannot go any further. If I go any further in this regard, as has been suggested by Senators Higgins, Collins and Stephenson, and introduce legislation saying that there is no entitlement to use counselling notes in a criminal prosecution or defence case, what would happen is that individuals would challenge that on the grounds that they would say they are being deprived of the right to fair procedure and that it is constitutionally impermissible to just categorise one section or category of evidence and say there can never be access to it. There could be something within a counselling note that is highly relevant to the guilt or innocence of the accused. There could be something in a counselling note that a jury should be aware of or that a person should be entitled to raise questions about, whether it be the prosecution or the accused.  As I said, I had the opportunity to engage with Ciara Mangan and Beyond Surviving a number of weeks ago. I have spoken to many of the people involved in the sector. People have spoken about the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre. Rape Crisis Ireland knows that the proposal I am putting forward is appropriate. Other people recognise that as well. We also need to take into account that there is not one homogeneous view among survivors within the community. People have different views. One of the most interesting points made to me by the people from Beyond Surviving, and this is something that I should have emphasised and should be emphasising more, is that counselling notes can be very beneficial in the prosecution of an offence of rape or sexual assault. It sometimes happens that a complainant does not make a complaint until many years after the event occurred. That can be for reasons of trauma. What was pointed out to me is that there are very many advantages in a complainant in a court process being able to say they went to counselling two or three weeks after the event and the counselling notes completely record what they said at the time, which corroborates what they are saying now. We need to recognise that this is not a simple issue. I fully appreciate that. There is an advantage, however, in having access to the counselling notes for the prosecution in criminal trials, and this is something that needs to be reflected on.  One of the Senators asked where the presumption of non-disclosure is. It is on page 23 of the Bill, in the change I am introducing into section 19A(11) of the Criminal Evidence Act 1992, where it is stated that, \"Subject to subsection (12), a court shall not, after the hearing referred to in subsection (8), order disclosure of the content of the applicable record concerned to the accused, and where applicable, the prosecutor, unless the court is satisfied\" that \"the record is likely to be relevant\". The issue of an unfair trial and the interest of justice is then set out. That is the presumption of non-disclosure. Any judge reading this section when an application is made will know that he or she shall not disclose the content of the record unless these provisions apply. This is what is known in legal terminology as a \"presumption of non-disclosure\". One thing I am certain of is that the legislation that is enacted and commenced - obviously, I will listen to what Senators have to say on Committee and Report Stages - will be significantly better from the point of view of victims before our courts than the statutory scheme is at present.  I note that Senator McDowell welcomed the fact that there are diverse categories of miscellaneous provisions. It is a real advantage to a Minister to have this type of mechanism to bring forward so many different legislative proposals. He said it is important that the other legislative proposals or schemes being amended are amended accordingly. That is important. The Law Reform Commission does an excellent job in consolidating and updating legislation. In effect, this Bill, although it is called \"miscellaneous provisions\" legislation, seeks to amend the Firearms Act 1925, the Criminal Evidence Act 1992, the Extradition Act 1965, the Defence Act 1954, the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act 2001, the European Arrest Warrant Act 2003, the Criminal Justice (Forensic Evidence and DNA Database System) Act 2014 and the International Criminal Court Act 2006. The great advantage of a miscellaneous provisions Bill is that there is a whole body of legislation out there that needs to be amended in some certain ways and this is being done through this legislation.  In respect of the disregard scheme, I could have waited and said that we would not put the scheme into a miscellaneous provisions Bill and that we would wait for a separate Bill, but it would have taken at least another 18 months to two years to get it done. Things move on in politics and other priorities come onto the agenda. One of the things Senators will notice when they all become Ministers is that when they look at what is achievable, not everything can be done at the same time. If you get an opportunity to do something, my advice is to do it.  Other criticisms were made by Senator Collins in respect of my limiting the opportunity for the Oireachtas to give this legislation detailed examination. We go through a very detailed process of trying to change the law. First, in the Government Department where the Minister is proposing a change to the law, a proposal goes through lengthy policy consideration. It then goes to the Attorney General's office, where, before we even get to the drafting, we get legal advice in respect of the policy issues arising from the proposals. These are two very vigorous opportunities for detailed examination of legislation. It may not be by the Houses, but certainly internally by the Minister. There is then pre-legislative scrutiny before the relevant committee. A Bill is then introduced for the five Stages in D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann. It then comes to the Seanad, and then goes back to the D\u00e1il. We do, therefore, get an opportunity in Ireland to consider legislation very clearly.  I disagree with Senator Higgins's suggestion that this is a US-style Bill. It is not. It is a miscellaneous provisions Bill. We have had them for many years. I have tried to include as many provisions in it as I can, but it is certainly not like the vast Bills we see in America. Senator Higgins also misstated the provision in respect of face coverings. It is not going to be illegal if someone is wearing a face covering for health, religious or privacy reasons. The only reason someone will be required, under the proposed amendment to the public order Act, to remove a face covering is if the covering is being worn for the purpose of evading detection for the commission of a criminal offence.  Senator Keogan and other Senators mentioned the Defence Act legislation. I think it is worthwhile and will be an improvement to have that provision on a statutory basis. At present, the Garda sends a form called a C70 to the Defence Forces. A couple are sent to the Defence Forces every week. This can include when there is an explosive device that the Garda is concerned about. It was sometimes used for the transfer of money between banks. It was used recently in the context of the protest in trying to assist with the removal of trucks. It happens all the time and there is nothing bizarre about it. I think it is worthwhile putting it on a statutory basis.  I will look into the issue Senator Keogan raised about Escort Ireland. Prostitution, the purchase of sex in Ireland, is illegal, and that is something that has been maintained, notwithstanding the fact that others wanted me to consider changing it.  I disagree with Senator Stephenson's categorisation that this is a very cruel way to deal with legislation. It is important that we consider it. Everyone has an opportunity. The Senators here are highly intelligent and highly effective legislators, as is the case in the D\u00e1il. Everyone reads and can see what is coming forward, and everyone can and does get an opportunity to speak.  I heard what Senator O'Reilly said in respect of incapacitant spray. I have visited all the prisons in Ireland since I have been Minister, except one, the Midlands Prison, and I will be visiting it shortly. I commend the Irish Prison Service on the outstanding work it does. Every time I go to a prison, I ensure that I meet prisoners as well. A good relationship exists, in very difficult circumstances, between prisoners and prison officers. There is real skill in being a prison officer. It requires good psychological understanding of people's vulnerabilities and difficulties, and I am pleased to say Irish prison officers do this on a consistently effective basis.  Nonetheless, I will not permit a situation to develop where prison officers can be exposed to violence. Fortunately, levels are low but I will not permit a situation to arise where a prison officer will be without sufficient capacity to defend himself or herself if they are subjected to violence, and that is the same with garda\u00ed.  I thank the Senators for their contributions. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alison Comyn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Alison Comyn)  I thank the Minister. Before concluding, I welcome some very special guests to the Visitors Gallery. We have a group of students and teachers from the Presentation Girls\u2019 School, Maynooth, County Kildare. I see a group of very bright young women. Welcome to the Seanad Chamber. They are guests of Deputy Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail. As is customary, there will be no homework for the rest of the week. I hope they enjoy the rest of their visit. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alison Comyn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Alison Comyn)  When is it proposed to take Committee Stage? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robbie Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Robbie Gallagher  Next Tuesday. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alison Comyn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Alison Comyn)  Is that agreed? Agreed. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 23 June 2026."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alison Comyn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Alison Comyn)  When is it proposed to sit again? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robbie Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Robbie Gallagher  Next Tuesday at 1.30 p.m. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alison Comyn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Alison Comyn)  Is that agreed? Agreed. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an Seanad ar athl\u00f3 ar 12.51 p.m. go dt\u00ed 1.30 p.m., D\u00e9 M\u00e1irt, an 23 Meitheamh 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The Seanad adjourned at 12.51 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 23 June 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Criminal Law, Civil Law and Defence (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2026: Second Stage"}]}}]},"contextDate":"2026-06-18"},{"debateRecord":{"house":{"showAs":"Select Committee on Health","committeeCode":"select_committee_on_health","houseCode":"dail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/committee\/dail\/34\/select_committee_on_health","chamberType":"committee","houseNo":"34"},"chamber":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/def\/committee","showAs":"Select Committee on Health"},"lastUpdated":"2026-06-20T02:19:03+00:00","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/select_committee_on_health\/2026-06-17\/debate\/main","formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/select_committee_on_health\/2026-06-17\/debate\/mul@\/main.xml"},"pdf":null},"date":"2026-06-17","counts":{"contributorCount":6,"divisionCount":0,"debateSectionCount":2,"questionCount":0,"billCount":1},"debateType":"debate","debateSections":[{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/select_committee_on_health\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_2","debateType":"debate","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2025\/46","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2025\/46\/dail\/3","houseCode":"dail","stage":"3","isBillStage":true,"showAs":"Health (Amendment) Bill 2025: Committee Stage (D\u00e1il)"}},"showAs":"Health (Amendment) Bill 2025: Committee Stage","counts":{"speechCount":87,"speakerCount":7},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Cullinane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marie Sherlock","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Muiris O'Connor","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  The purpose of this meeting is to consider Committee Stage of the Health (Amendment) Bill 2025. I welcome the Minister for Health, Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill, who is accompanied by officials from the Department of Health at today's meeting. I will read a note on presence in Leinster House. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precinct will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any members partaking on Microsoft Teams that, prior to making their contribution, they confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House complex.  Before we move to detailed consideration of the Bill, I understand the Minister wishes to make some brief opening remarks. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Health (Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill)  I thank the Cathaoirleach. I am very pleased to be here today and I thank the committee for facilitating Committee Stage of the Bill. As the committee knows, the Health (Amendment) Bill is intended to amend the Health Act 2004. We brought it to Second Stage in July 2025. The purpose of the Bill is to introduce a number of reforms to strengthen planning and accountability in the HSE. The reforms arise from the Sl\u00e1intecare implementation plan, which highlights the need to move away from the previous directorate structure of the HSE towards an independent board overseeing a chief executive officer. We have already seen some legislative measures in a number of areas - strategic direction statements, performance delivery plans, corrective action proposals and so on - but, together, the provisions in the Bill will ensure the priorities of the HSE continue to align with those of the elected Government and that accountability is strengthened. Crucially, it will ensure maximum value for money is achieved in carrying out its functions.  Overall, the Bill will enhance the governance of the HSE and strengthen the relationship between the HSE executive and the Government and therefore, the Oireachtas. Since the establishment of the HSE board, the Department of Health has engaged and consulted extensively with the HSE and, more recently, the Department of children and disability. The provisions in this Bill build upon those structures to further enhance the HSE's accountability while retaining the independence and autonomy of the HSE board. As the Cathaoirleach is aware, today's amendments relate to the regional health forums and multi-annual budgeting. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank the Minister. A total of six amendments have been tabled which will be discussed individually, except for amendment Nos. 4 and 5 which will be discussed together. We will now consider the amendments and each section of the Bill in turn. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sections 1 to 3, inclusive, agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"NEW SECTIONS"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Cullinane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy David Cullinane  I move amendment No. 1:  In page 5, after line 27, to insert the following:  \u201c Report on outsourcing and agency spending  4. (1) The Minister and the Executive shall, not later than 6 months following the passage of this Act, prepare and cause to be laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas a report on agency spending and outsourcing spending, that being any expenditure on private providers for services which are and can be provided by the Executive including but not limited to clinical, human resources, and administrative functions.  (2) The report shall set out year-to-year expenditure by service providing units of the Executive on such matters for the years 2016-2026, and shall set out targets for a reduction in such expenditures over the years 2027-2031.\u201d.  I welcome the Minister. I fully support the Bill and all of the provisions in the Bill. I think the Minister would agree there is a lot more that needs to be done in relation to governance changes, oversight and accountability within the HSE. It is a big organisation and I accept that. It has a huge number of staff and there is a huge amount of management involved in the HSE. Value for money is one part of governance and accountability and we will get into some of that, but decision-making, how we deal with issues that arise and whether people are truly held to account is something that always surfaces and is part of an ongoing debate about the healthcare system.  I will make a wider point before I go into the substance of the amendment. When we have a discussion on healthcare, the amount of money we spend on healthcare is obviously a big issue because it is a huge budget. There is a responsibility on all of us, including this committee, to focus on value for money, outputs, efficiency and making sure we are getting bang for our buck. In a few moments when we consider the amendments I will deal with some of the areas where we are not achieving that. Obviously, there is a responsibility on the Government but there is a role for the health committee as well. We try to play a role in relation to Revised Estimates but we do not always get the opportunity to have those debates on accountability and transparency that we maybe should. This Bill gives us an opportunity to have some of those discussions. I do welcome all of the provisions in the Bill and I will support all of them.  The first amendment deals with agency spending. It references outsourcing but it is mainly about agency spending. I have engaged with several different heads of the HSE, as well as others in the Department and HSE, on this since I became health spokesperson. I have heard plenty of goodwill and good intentions on this. The previous head of the HSE said he wanted to make sure there were really substantial changes made to agency spending, clamping down, enforcement and making sure we had high rates of conversion from agency spend into whole-time equivalents and getting tough with the healthcare system. We cannot have a healthcare system that relies on very high levels of agency spend. It is simply not sustainable and not good value for money. As we know, there is a premium we have to pay for agency staff. For example, I know many nurses have no choice but to work for an agency because they cannot get contracts. I can understand why it happens. From a health service point of view and for the local managers in different healthcare services in hospitals, I understand why they may feel forced into hiring agency staff because they cannot recruit the staff they need.  The most recent figures I received - they never cease to shock me when I get them - are up again. In acute hospitals in 2025, the total amount that was spent on agencies was \u20ac420 million. Outside of acute care, which would look at disabilities, health and well-being, non-acute, non-community funding in health regions, which was quite small, mental health, older persons and primary care, we spent \u20ac536 million last year in agency spend. That is almost \u20ac1 billion between the two of them, which is a doubling of the investment over a very short period. It is clear there is a problem and more needs to be done. What is the Minister's plan? How do we bring accountability?  My amendment deals with one of the few ways in which I thought we could have some level of accountability. It calls on the Minister to lay before the House a plan to address the issues around agency spending and outsourcing - for her to tell us what we are spending and how we will rein it in. We could then have statements in the House. We could do it through the Oireachtas health committee; there are various ways in which we could do it. I have to make the point to the Minister that previous Ministers sat where she is sitting, along with previous Secretaries General and heads of the HSE, all of whom said this is a runaway train that needs to be dealt with, yet it is going up rather than going down. I ask the Minister to set out her plan and the time frame for converting as much of that agency spend as possible into whole-time equivalent positions. How can we rein in what is an outrageous figure, in my view, of almost \u20ac1 billion on agency spend? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Colm Burke  While I agree with what Deputy Cullinane has said, I do not think it is necessary to put it into the Bill. However, I believe there needs to be a structure put in place as regards how we can reduce the cost of agency staff. One of the areas I have consistently raised over the past 12 years is forward planning within the HSE, especially when consultant posts are coming up because people were due to retire. We do not appear to be taking any decisive action before a person retires. We tend to allow the person to retire. They then come back in as a locum and we then advertise the job. We should be advertising those jobs at least 12 months in advance.  I know the HSE has taken this on board and I know it intends to do it proactively now, but it is unfortunate that we have missed a decade where forward planning was not done on that whole area. If we had that forward planning, it would reduce the number of locum doctors we have to employ. That would reduce the whole issue of the cost of non-HSE people being paid. In many cases, when the HSE takes on a locum doctor it is paying nearly double the amount of money. It is important that we plan forward.  Another issue that needs to be looked at is how at any one time on, say, the nursing side or the care assistant side, there are going to be people who are out on sick leave for very genuine reasons. We do not appear to be planning for that. Another issue relates to people having to take maternity leave. We do not appear to be planning for that in individual hospitals. That is something we need to look at.  While I agree with what Deputy Cullinane said about the need to reduce the cost of agency staff, I do not believe it is necessary to put it into the Bill itself. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Martin Daly  I also agree with the comments made by Deputy Cullinane around the reliance on agency staff, outsourcing and insourcing, which really just reflects a lack of capacity in our health service. Part of it is capacity. There was a lost decade after the financial crash where we just could not properly fund what we wanted to fund. We are playing catch-up. We need to have a more planned approach. I will not labour the point but we need a more planned approach in relation to capacity. I agree with the stance on the public money contract because that will allow a more consolidated approach within hospitals where people are working in teams rather than just in silos.  Regarding outsourcing and agency staff, we need some flexibility in the system while we develop capacity but we also must be conscious of the cost of agency and the cost of outsourcing. We also need to be aware, as we know from our discussions previously on Children's Health Ireland, of the moral hazard in the system if we have people where work is being insourced or outsourced who are already in the public system and are supposed to be providing service there. However, I do not think this is the place for this amendment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill  First, I need to immediately correct myself by saying the multi-annual budgeting amendments are to be introduced on Report Stage. I had that confused so forgive me. I do not want to mislead the committee.  In relation to agency, I thank Deputy Cullinane for the amendment and the opportunity to discuss it. I totally understand the way in which he has structured the amendment and the purpose of it to have better accountability around this. I do not believe it is for legislation because I think we should be doing it anyway. I might suggest a couple of ways of doing that.  First, I will give members my reflection on what we have been trying to do on agency over the past period. I believe I updated the committee on this previously, but last September or October I met with the HSE director of people, Ms Anne Marie Hoey, and expressed my very strong concern around agency use and also the slowness with which many people in the health system are recruited. Deputy Cullinane has referred to that just now. It takes an inordinately long time to recruit a nurse. The structure and use of panels, for example, is something of a complexity that one certainly would not start with but we seem to be here with it and I do not believe it results in faster recruitment. Some days one feels it is quicker to recruit the CEO of the HSE than it is to recruit a specific nurse. I am being a little bit facetious but only a little bit. The structures that have grown over time do not necessarily serve quick recruitment, which is what this committee wants. We want people recruited into whole-time positions and a massive reduction in the role of agency.  We are trying to do some different things and I will suggest to the committee how we can take it forward together. The first is tightening authorisation controls, including removing delegated approval for agency bookings at site level when required. The second is formal directions by the regional executive officer to sites on agency limits, controls and required actions. The third is restrictions of agency use to defined exception areas and also direct recruitment and agency conversion, which is by far the most important aspect.  I really want to establish our own HSE agency. I am tired of paying agency fees to third parties. I do not see any value in it. I believe there is a role for agency in the future of the health system insofar as we will need a certain measure of flexibility, as Deputies Daly and Cullinane have said. However, where we need that measure of flexibility, I do not want to pay a third-party entity for the privilege of it. It is reasonable that we establish our own HSE staff bank. It is something I asked for last October and it is now being progressed in the HSE. It should be possible if someone wants to do extra hours or is available to do extra hours to apply to our own agency and say they are available for additional hours. It is also important that where we are using agency staff, the site is directing the hours that are done and people are not signing up for the most advantageous shifts, as it were. I mean that the site is in control when we are using agency to cover what the site needs as opposed to any situation where agency is controlling the hours. That is something I have seen in different places and we need to be very careful.  We need our own HSE staff bank to reduce the reliance on third parties while still allowing some measure of flexibility but we need better conditionality on the use of agency staff as well. That might result in some kickback from people who have been used to working in this way and I ask for the committee's support if that is the case. We also need to get to the point where, if we establish a staff bank in the way I am describing, we end the off-framework model. That is going to result in a sort of rupture. I ask the committee for support when that happens if we do that and take that important step. Rather than saying the situation is fine in perpetuity and \"fix it when you can, lads\", at some point we are going to have to say \"this is our staff bank\" and thereafter not do it outside of this structure. That will result in some disruption and I ask for the committee members' support when that happens.  Deputy Cullinane said he has been talking about this with many Ministers, executive officers and members of the HSE who have all the time been trying to get down the budget on agency, recruit the permanent positions and change the site-by-site culture that has built up over time. If we are going to make the kind of change that, I think, is the one that is necessary to be effective, I am going to need the support of the committee members. I ask that they help me with that. Let me describe what we are thinking, the parameters we want to put on it in 2026 and where I think there might be difficulties, and ask for the committee's support in making that transition.  I suggest, rather boldly, that the Chair invite the regional executive officers, the regional directors of people and the regional clinical directors in to describe to the committee what they are doing in terms of agency conversion and the speeding up of recruitment of permanent positions. They can describe to the committee what is happening in their areas in relation to the establishment of a staff bank.  There is a directed programme by the CEO at the moment in relation to agency conversions. We are seeing that it is more difficult in some regions For example, the hospitals in Dublin Mid-Leinster have a much higher proportional reliance on agency than hospitals in other areas. That is a huge cost. The bulk of it is a huge significant cost and is also not the right way to be working. However, the other side of it is smaller in numbers but very expensive and that is consultants being recruited on agency in temporary and locum positions. We have about 450 consultants who are on temporary or locum positions. That is expensive. My question to the regions and sites is: are they sure there is nobody within the hospital who is already qualified? With positions that are not filled for maybe a year or 18 months, are they sure that is necessary? We have to be rigorous, site by site, about the different vacancies and the different positions.  Given the Sl\u00e1intecare support for the regional structure, it would be reasonable for the committee to look at it region by region, seeing how the regions have been tasked with this very activity, so I can come back and describe to members a systematic change that will last, one that is going to have an important budgetary implication and, more importantly, is going to give the health system much more predictability about rostering and who is available. I suggest that the committee, without needing to legislate for it, should take control of this and bring in the different regions to have that detailed conversation. I ask the committee to support me on the establishment of a HSE staff bank and the necessary change that will come from it, and to say \"this is the new way, we have to end the old way\" and help us through the different issues that will come as consequence of that. That is my suggestion for how we collectively deal with this issue that we collectively have. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Is the amendment being pressed? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Cullinane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy David Cullinane  I want to come back in as we are on Committee Stage. Ireland is a very small country and we had a very similar discussion on insourcing and outsourcing where it is riven with conflicts of interest.  The political system had made a decision to move not just to a fully public system when it comes to taxpayers' money, but also a seven-day-a-week health service. Any impediment to achieving that has to be challenged. I will support whatever measures need to be put in place to manage and deal with that because we have to get to a point where we have a public system and a seven-day-a-week health service. That means changes. Some people do not like change but that is an issue for the Oireachtas to deal with and set out the policy. When the Minister says the health committee should take control, I appreciate that she meant we could play a role. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Cullinane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy David Cullinane  Obviously, the Minister has the ultimate responsibility along with the Department, the Secretary General and the head of the HSE. Some of what the Minister said in her response means she is looking under the bonnet, which is important. I agree with lots of what she said but I want to balance it. It is important to establish how much of the over \u20ac950 million agency spend is recurring. There was a time when this was seen as one-off spending, it was needed because there was an emergency, we needed staff in certain areas where we were understaffed, people were out sick or all sorts of other reasons. We have to accept that this spend has now become a permanent feature. It is recurring spending year on year. Worse than that, it is increasing. The first job and responsibility of decision-makers is to work out how much of that spend is recurring and how much needs to be converted into whole-time equivalent posts, with a strategy then around that.  I agree with the Minister fully on consultants. I got a further breakdown of this. I did a piece of work with a journalist on it because we had taken an interest in this whole area of agency spend. I looked for a list of all the companies that provided services. It is a cottage industry. There is no other way to describe it. It is like the wild west. There was any amount of these companies being formed. When I say we are a small country and there are conflicts of interest, some of these companies are owned by people who work in the health service. It is rife with conflicts of interest. A huge amount of money is being made.  It makes complete sense that the HSE would have its own panels. In private hospitals, for example, they have bank hours. We need to be very careful about the workers' rights and employment rights side of this because lots of private hospitals also have zero-hour contracts. While I agree with flexibility, it is important for some staff members in the health service and a form of such contract is what suits them, many are forced into taking these contracts because permanent contracts are not available. If there is a public agency within the HSE, we have to make sure that it does not infringe on employment rights and the right of staff to seek permanent contracts, which the vast majority of people in the health service have. That balance has to be struck.  It also has to be about need because there is an issue in relation to controls, which the Minister mentioned. We have to make sure that proper controls are in place when overtime is sanctioned. We will invite in the regional executive officers, REOs, because they have a responsibility. The health regions and REOs are accountable for budgets in their areas and I fully accept that we need to hold them to account, but I have heard from hospital managers and other elements of the health service that they have no option but to hire agency staff because they cannot recruit staff and this is the only option for them. If they do not, they cannot provide a safe service.  There is a strong balance to be struck on this issue. It is difficult but that does not mean we do not deal with the issue. I am willing to work with the Minister and anybody in the Department or the HSE on this to get to a better point where I am not submitting parliamentary questions and seeing that the spend is now \u20ac1.1 billion and increasing, more companies are being established and more elements of the health service are engaging in this. It has crept into the non-acute side in recent times and it is massive. It has to be reined it. I accept a lot of what the Minister said. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marie Sherlock","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Marie Sherlock  I support everything that has been said. It is an enormous concern that it has been persistent in the Irish health service and there has been a tolerance for it across so many hospitals. Some hospitals have up to 20% of their staff from agencies, which falls to 2% or 3% in some of the larger hospitals. There is a conversation to be had about why some level 2 hospitals in particular rely on agencies to such an extent and the degree to which they are supported by the nearby level 3 and level 4 hospitals but also the functions of those hospitals. That is a very controversial subject for any political party - we were there 20 years ago with the Hanly report - but it is one we cannot shy away from in terms of why some hospitals are unable to attract staff. There are a variety of reasons, but there are very real issues when a consultant in particular operates on their own as opposed to in a team. It is important when we are having that conversation about agency spend that we recognise that factors are different between hospitals. It is an important conversation in the context of the regions, some of the level 2 and level 3 hospitals and their functions.  For many years, the NHS has had a kind of locum staff bank within its services. It is astonishing that has not been developed in the Irish health system. It needs to be. There will always be a need for a locum service. We all accept that but who profits from it is the critical issue. As Deputy Cullinane said, there is a cottage industry. There are people who have decided that agency work suits them. I am all for flexible work arrangements but the reality is this is public money, which needs to be spent well as opposed to just facilitating the flexible work arrangements some people desire. Those arrangements can be facilitated as direct employees in the health service but a much greater push needs to happen. The Minister's leadership is critical here. We as a committee will of course play our role but it is ultimately for the Minister to lay down the law and make very clear what the priority should be. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Martin Daly  It was the Minister and the wider Government who took the strongest stance on defending the public-only contract in relation to the Rotunda. I commend her for that because those issues would have unravelled Sl\u00e1intecare. While the Minister has pushed it down to the REOs, she has shown leadership in a lot of areas such as insourcing, outsourcing, Children's Health Ireland, CHI, and the public-only contract. It will take her leadership and the Department's direction to set policy in relation to this.  It seems inexplicable to the average person that when we know a post is coming up in the HSE - a consultant, nurse, midwife, admin staff - the day the HSE starts looking for a replacement appears to be the day the incumbent leaves the job and there is a gap. I cannot understand that; I do not think any right-minded person can understand the inefficiency of that system. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  The issue on public-only contracts is coming up under amendment No. 3. We might discuss them under that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill  I totally agree with Deputy Cullinane that \"control\" was the wrong word. It is of course my responsibility. I know what the Deputy is saying, it is just that I think this committee has a strong role because it can bring people in and spend time speaking in a public way that I do not necessarily have the facility to do. It is more that sort of partnership that I mean.  I have required that I get a week-by-week update on how this is going region by region. The regions are important because the detailed conversation is there. For example, my most recent update was the week ending 12 June. Under the, \"Deliver on target to convert maximum agency conversion\" section, all of the regions were red except the west and north west, which is doing quite well. Off-framework agency reduction will be crucial because we said that there would be the elimination of off-framework agency use on a phased basis by September. All of the regions are red in that regard. When it comes to September and I say that the regions had been given three months' notice to get themselves off framework and they now have to be off framework, that is when I will need the committee's help to back this change.  On flexible contracting and the establishment of a staff bank, Deputy Sherlock is right.  If private hospitals want to recruit agency through private companies that is a matter for them. That is not my business, but we need a measure of the HSE and recruitment agencies and I want the HSE to recruit from itself. I do not want the idea that there is someone working in the HSE who is also employed in the HSE but through a third-party agent. That does not make any sense to me. This is the question I asked last September: tell me the number of people who are working in the HSE who are also working in the HSE except through a third-party agency. We are paying fees for that and a heightened price for it so please explain that to me. Why can we not have our own HSE agency? I have required that this agency be set up. On that, the progress so far is that four regions are in red and two regions, Dublin and South East and South West, are seeing some progress in relation to it.  In terms of absence management, all the six regions are in red. However, we have a week-by-week rolling update of this over the summer period. That is the only way I can see to implement this. That level of granularity is necessary rather than just coming in and saying, \u201cThis is what I want to do and I have tasked the HSE CEO with it\u201d. This is a detailed week-by-week plan to try to do that. That is why I suggest it would be augmented by the committee\u2019s role in that and engaging with the regions, not only on how they are doing it and the way in which they are engaging with it, but the real challenges there are for them in different ways. These are tangible, site-by-site challenges that are meaningful. The committee could draw that out a great deal as well.  Of course, what we want is people working in permanent positions. That is our goal. We have far too many permanent positions that are funded that are not filled. I want them hired permanently and for people to work in the HSE on a public basis.  Deputy Sherlock mentioned model 2 hospitals but where we see the real difficulty is with the model 3 hospitals. What it needs is a cultural shift to make sure people, consultants in particular, who are working in a model 4 hospital, regard the model 3 role as just as important as the model 4 role. That is our structure. There is a question of whether people want to work in model 3 hospitals or not. There is a reasonable structure between working in a model 4 and a model 3. It gives very good cover and the opportunity to still do some of the more specialist work in a model 4 and then bring that specialist experience to a model 3, but it does actually have to happen and that relationship needs to happen every week. It needs to happen culturally in a totally integrated way. We are seeing our biggest challenge with the model 3 hospitals. That redeployment between the model 3 and model 4, and that balance, is really important. I thank the Deputy for flagging it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I do not wish to stifle discussion but we are still on amendment No. 1. We are on section 4 of 28 sections and I am keen to make progress. If people want to come in, I ask they keep it brief so we can make some progress and get this done. We will do our business in an efficient way, if we can. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Colm Burke  Coming back to the issue of forward planning, the HSE has said it will do that where consultants or any staff members are due to retire out. This has been discussed for years but it still does not appear to be in place. The person retires and there is then a vacancy for anything up to 12 to 18 months because of recruitment whereas recruitment should be happening 12 months before the person retires out. I have not seen that there is a structure put in place. Going back some years, I saw where all the consultants in a hospital in a particular area were locums because people were retiring and there was no forward planning done. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Cullinane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy David Cullinane  I fully agree with having the regional executive officers come before the health committee. It should have been done by now, to be honest, because they have been in place for some time now and they all have a very important role to play. Value for money and efficiency are issues we would want to talk to them about as well as outcomes. There is also investments. I am sure they will come in and say they need investments in certain areas. They have a responsibility for budgets but also for the running and providing of services. It would be very useful to have a meeting on agency spend and public-only contracts, which we will deal with later. There are lots of issues we would like to talk to them about. Productivity in the health service is really important and the REOs have an important role to play so that would be useful.  I will make one final point on agency spend. I hope a message goes out to the entire system and the HSE that we are serious about reining in agency spend. That needs to be a very clear message. When we say we will take action then we have to take action, but we also have to balance that and understand the pressures and the reasons some areas of the health service are recruiting. There are geographical issues. I have the breakdown myself and I can see some hospitals where it is very high and others where it is not as high. I am conscious there are good reasons why we outsource and use agency. I do not like that there are so many companies, why they have set up and there being a premium and so on but there is a good reason behind it. What we have to do is get the balance right. Where there is good reason, let us convert posts into whole-time equivalents where that is appropriate. If there is need for more flexibility around what the HSE can do let us do that, and where there is fat, waste or inefficiency let us ruthlessly deal with that. That is how we should approach it. That should be the message that goes out from this committee. If that is the message that goes out from this committee then maybe the amendment was worthwhile even though it will not be accepted. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill  The amendment is fantastic because it gives us the opportunity to discuss this. That is the purpose of it, I assume. It is fantastic that we have the opportunity to discuss this. I am driven demented trying to get it changed. It is really important that I can describe the steps we are taking.  When the committee brings in the REOs, I strongly recommend bringing in the people directors and the clinical directors because both have a similarly important role. There is huge variation. I am not trying to put them in any difficult position. They are all working on this. It is just important to establish the practicalities involved and the practical difficulties in relation to it. With the new model, each region is responsible for its own funding. There is only so much that can be said for calls for more funding from central government. We are trying our best to invest in it but at the same time it has to be managed within each region. That will create tension in the finite resources environment we all work in.  On the proactive hiring of consultants, Deputy Burke is entirely right. The most important piece of that is multi-annual funding so that people know what is needed over time. It is also important to say that we should assume every position needs to be directly replaced. Specialisms are changing and needs are changing. While it is often the case that a post needs to be replaced, it may also be that a region needs something different. That is one of the new shifts towards the regional model. The region needs to consider what it needs best, what it needs best this year and how it can plan for that over time. That is important as well.  On agency, the things that have the big spend are healthcare assistants, which is a big driver of agency spend, mental health and older people, which is also very high in terms of scale. In terms of the individual expense, the consultant piece is an obvious one to look to. I thank the Deputy for the opportunity to be able to update him on what is happening. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Cullinane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy David Cullinane  I move amendment No. 2:  In page 5, after line 27, to insert the following:   \u201cMulti-annual funding frameworks   4. The Minister shall, not later than 6 months following the passage of this Act, prepare and cause to be laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas a report on multi-annual funding frameworks for the Executive for the purposes of outlining indicative funding for the Executive in particular on capital expenditure and on national strategies.\u201d.  In her opening remarks, the Minister has said that she will come back on Report Stage with amendments on multi-annual funding and frameworks. That is really important. I would have preferred for it to have been in the legislation at the beginning because it is a big part of the reform needed in the healthcare system.  I have looked at what we actually mean by multi-annual funding in detail over many years. Taking capital, in some respects, there is capital expenditure over a reasonable time period, which it could be argued is multi-annual funding. The issue is the allocation of that funding and where that money goes. In areas such as new drugs and cancer care, there needs to be funding certainty over a reasonable time period to allow the system to plan. What was happening previously, particularly when it came to new money or new investment, was this was at the whim of the Minister or government of the day and the budget, where people would be looking at the budget to see what new money was coming and where that money was going. Sometimes, the money would not come and funding programmes would not get the money they hoped for and that then became a political issue and so on. It just was not efficient. It is much better if we can set out funding over a reasonable time period, particularly in those areas, and say, \u201cHere is the budget. Where is the plan?\u201d. We can then measure the implementation of that plan. That is the space I want us to get into.  The Minister will give her view and we will have amendments on Report Stage. I know this was a commitment in the programme for Government so I know the Minister is committed to it as is the Government, but it is an issue where I hope there is universal agreement across this committee and the Oireachtas that we need to get to that space in healthcare, and we will be in a much stronger position.  It would be remiss of me not to point out that we do not have enough capital funding for the health service. The Minister will say she has got increased funding beyond what was maybe offered but I know the big challenges in health and the big developments that need to happen, such as the elective hospitals, the new national maternity strategy and digitisation, and all the other pieces that go with it. There needs to be accountability as well, by the way, around bed plans that were announced by the Minister's predecessor, how they are going to be delivered and when. I do not see that they will. There are a lot of issues around accountability when it comes to announcements that are made and follow-through in the absence of multi-annual funding that underpins them.  For all of those reasons, it would be much better for the political system to have funding certainty in place and multi-annual frameworks, notwithstanding the fact that budgets are budgets and Ministers like to be able to make announcements. I get that the Ministers for Finance and public expenditure want to be able to make decisions in real time about additional investments. There are areas in healthcare where we can very quickly move to multi-annual frameworks and budgeting, and I hope that is where we go. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill  I will bring amendments in relation to creating the structure for multi-annual funding on Report Stage. We will enable it and phase it, essentially. We will bring in a measure that enables multi-annual funding and then we will see. Hopefully, we can do it as quickly as possible. The detailed design and implementation of multi-annual budgeting for health is being progressed separately through a dedicated workstream with the Department of Health, the Department of public expenditure and the HSE. We really are trying to work towards that. How we come in on the money is a big part of that, too.  I thank the Deputy for his comments on capital. I always think that I should have a bigger capital budget. I am doing my best to spend every penny of that. I would also like to tell the committee that the Department of public expenditure has informed me that I am the best of all the Departments at spending the capital budget, way ahead of housing and education. We are spending our money as best we can. That is the right investment. I can confirm that I will be trying to take everybody else's leftover capital budget if they leave anything within the 2026 allocation. I will be doing my best to spend not just my capital budget, but their capital budgets, because that is the kind of investment we need in health. We just need to spend it. We really are doing our best.  We will be opening the Waterford surgical hub, which is a fantastic measure. We had somebody else announcing it but us delivering it. I look forward to opening the surgical hub in north Dublin this month. There is quite a lot happening. I was down with Deputy Colm Burke two weeks ago in Mallow opening the new 24 beds there. I think Mallow hospital has gone from 37 beds to 96 in a reasonably short period, along with a very substantial annual current, recurring budget increase. We were also in Blarney, where the Mercy hospital has taken over the hotel beside the golf club to turn it into rehab and step-down beds, including very high-level neuro-rehab beds. It was a pleasure to be there. It is great to see all of those capital projects advancing and, indeed, opening.  I cannot tell the Deputy how delighted I am to hear his approach to the budget. He will recall that I did not make any announcements of the ministerial kind in relation to the budget in October last year. I had a reasonably boring presentation, I believe, saying what the uplift was and that we would distribute it to the regions. I do recall direct and specific criticism from the Deputy's excellent self about not having allocated a specific budget for cancer. I maintained a position that it was not for the Minister do be doing that and that it was in fact better to be delivering an overall uplift and for it to be allocated. I also remember a specific campaign by Sinn F\u00e9in in relation to endometriosis and the fact that I had not tagged specific money for it. I recall a video by Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell, for example, going viral and being brought to my attention by many different endometriosis activists for my failure to allocate money for endometriosis in the budget, notwithstanding that Deputy Cullinane and I both know that was to happen in the broader context. The very last thing any Minister should be doing is standing up and making self-regarding announcements in relation to what is in the budget. The job of the Minister for Health is to try to secure the best budget they can to increase funding for the following year, to deliver multi-annual funding for exactly the sort of predictability the health system needs, and to take the politics out of health as best as possible. I look forward to trying my best to do that this year, to make sure that we come in on the money and to make the best case to the Department of public expenditure and reform.  I have to say that the Minister, Deputy Jack Chambers, is really working with me on the implementation of the public-only consultant contract and on productivity, which the Deputy highlights as being very important, as well as on delivering a more sustainable, structured budget that helps to bring health out of the politics of the annual into something that is much more structured and sustained, which I think reflects Sl\u00e1intecare better. It reflects multi-party co-operation better, and that is what we are trying to get to. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Martin Daly  I commend the Minister on the endometriosis framework and the new service. It is a huge improvement and a recognition of a need that was there. Many women who will avail of that service are very grateful for the Minister's leadership in relation to that.  I will raise two issues about capital. The first is digitalisation, which I am going to keep hammering on about. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill  The Deputy is right. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Martin Daly  I have spoken to the Department of public expenditure as well. We have an archaic system. If we keep throwing money at this system, we will not get the commensurate productivity because it is simply not fit for purpose. We are so far off the charts. This is not a criticism of the Minister but it is a reality of where we are. In the 2030 Digital Compass project, we are in last place in the European Union in relation to digitalisation. I will keep hammering that because we will not make progress until we get there.  The second issue is in respect of the emphasis on primary care. We have had this mantra for the last 25 or 30 years about primary care, yet the money is not going to primary care. We are seeing places like Ballaghaderreen in County Roscommon, where poorer communities in a rural area, with a national school that has 22 different languages, are being asked to find a public-private partnership to provide a primary care centre after 15 years. That has failed. It is patently obvious that the HSE, the State or the Department - I do not care who - should be directly building primary care centres in deprived rural and urban areas and populating them with health professionals. Otherwise, we are going to make no progress on the recruitment and retention of general practitioners, public health nurses, primary care and allied health professionals and nursing professionals. I will continue to make that point. It would be like asking consultants on a public-only contract to go out and build a public hospital and fund the infrastructure, and then see the first patient. It is not exactly the same thing but it is pretty close. When you are down in places like Ballaghaderreen, Roscommon more widely or east Galway, or deprived urban areas, the vast majority of income comes from public patients. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  We are discussing the multi-annual framework. If we could stay on track, that would be appreciated. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Cullinane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy David Cullinane  I want to come back on some of the points the Minister raised. She correctly said that I had asked questions about allocation of funding arising from the last budget. I fully stand over that and maybe I will refresh the Minister's memory in relation to the point I was making. It is a valid point that I will be making again this year, next year and the year after. When we allocate funding to healthcare or to any Department, there are a number of elements to it. The Minister talked about an uplift in the budget, that the money was allocated to the regions and that the regions had to figure out how best to spend that. I do not have a quarrel with that. I supported the development of the health regions. However, we also have national strategies and there are certain line items and issues, such as new drugs, that have to be controlled as well. The point I was making was that a big element of what was in the health budget were existing levels of service funding to enable the health service to stand still. We know it is around pay, demographics and all of those issues. That has to be provided for. In previous meetings, Secretaries General have said that they do not have enough money for existing levels of service to enable the health service to stand still, which means we actually go backwards and end up with Revised Estimates and so on. What I was looking for at the time was not a line-by-line breakdown of every single case. It was about how much was new money, how much was new development, how much was an existing level of service. There is a need for a level of transparency about the amount of new money that is going into the health regions or elsewhere. There should not be any quarrel between me and the Minister, I hope, on that point because it is a very simple breakdown of what is money for existing levels of service and what is new money.  I welcome the Minister's recollection of the campaign that Sinn F\u00e9in ran on endometriosis, the public meetings that we held and the voices we listened to. It was an important issue. I am not sure about the other issues the Minister raised. For example, I am not across the issue she raised about Deputy Farrell, who is not here to defend herself. Endometriosis is an important issue and it was an important campaign that we ran. We brought an important motion before the D\u00e1il. I recognise the framework that was put in place, which I have also supported.  On the capital side, we can all recite individual capital projects that have happened. I fully support all of them, including in my own constituency. I pass the new building almost every second day and, in fact, have family members who are trying to get employment in it.  They are applying for positions in it as well. I know it will be vital for Waterford.  I am making a broader point about the capital budget, which the Minister has accepted, that there are big demands in the healthcare space. I want to make sure that when we make investments, we are making smart decisions and smart investments. Where we need to have efficiencies, we have to have them and we have to get value for money. We also have to invest, however. We know that on the capital side, some projects require big expenditure. I do not want to open up the discussion on the children's hospital - I will not do so - but that is an example of a project costing a lot of money. The national maternity hospital will cost a lot of money. I am concerned about the elective hospitals. I am concerned about how quickly we will deliver them. I am not saying that as a criticism of the Minister; I am just concerned, and that is an issue for me. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Thank you, Deputy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Cullinane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy David Cullinane  I will finish, but there is no specific time limit we have on Committee Stage. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Yes, but----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Cullinane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy David Cullinane  I am sticking to the issue----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Sorry. We do need to get through this Bill----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Cullinane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy David Cullinane  I understand that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  We are on amendment No. 2. We have spent an hour----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Cullinane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy David Cullinane  I know we are on amendment No. 2, but----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  If you will allow me to speak, Deputy, we are on amendment No. 2 to section 4 . There are 28 sections in the Bill. I am just keen to make progress in order to ensure that we get through this today and that we get to your other amendments and to those of other Deputies. The other members of the committee wish to have their amendments debated as well. I ask you to conclude and to stick to the discussion. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Cullinane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy David Cullinane  I am respectful of that, but, equally, these are important issues for us to have a discussion on. It is not often we have an opportunity to have discussions of this nature on these issues.  I was finishing on the capital spend. There are big projects that require big expenditure. Then there are lots of other smaller projects that may not be as big but are important for local hospitals and local healthcare. I refer, for example, to projects relating to mental health provision. I do have a concern about the overall capital envelope that is available for coming years and whether we can do all that we need to do. That is just my view; it is not a criticism at all of the Minister, who I know has fought for additional capital and will continue to fight for it.  When we get to Report Stage and see the Minister's amendments, we can come back to have maybe a further discussion on the framework for multi-annual funding. I thank the Minister for her response. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill  I am conscious of the committee's time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Is the amendment being pressed? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Cullinane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy David Cullinane  Yes. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Cullinane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy David Cullinane  I move amendment No. 3:  In page 5, after line 27, to insert the following:   \u201cReport on removal of private practice from public hospitals and implementation of public only contracts   4. (1) The Minister shall, not later than 6 months following the passage of this Act, prepare and cause to be laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas a report on the removal of private practice from public hospitals, which shall detail the level of remaining private activity in each public hospital, including statutory hospitals and relevant section 38 organisations, and outline the steps being taken and timeframes for the full and total removal of private practice from public hospitals.  (2) The report referred to in subsection (1) shall include details on the rate of uptake of the public only consultant contract and the deployment of said contract by site and by weekday, and shall include anonymised or pseudonymised details on the level of private practice conducted by consultants on public and public-only contracts in public hospitals or otherwise during contracted hours.\u201d.  This is on the public-only contracts. The Minister will certainly agree that this is an issue we need to deal with. It has been in the media for the past number of weeks in relation to the Rotunda Hospital. I am also conscious that since then we have had an audit published by the HSE that has raised concerns about enforceability, accountability and transparency in relation to public-only contracts.  I will make this point, if I may, because there are lots of different issues which have surfaced which have really concerned us, and I know the Chair has spoken about them as well. The Rotunda was one in relation to the consultants on public-only contracts doing private work. That is now resolved and the board has reversed its decision, which we all accept. We then heard about payments of up to \u20ac1,500 being made to some consultants in the Rotunda, but there are also wider issues across the system in relation to consultants not being rostered at weekends. One of the reasons I have heard, which, by the way, I refuted on national radio, is to the effect that \"We are on call\". I am sorry, but I was one of those who supported the public-only contracts when they were in place. In fact, I remember meeting with the previous Minister for Health and saying, \"We are going to get some flak and some pushback.\" That happened, and we have to make sure that we defend the decision collectively that we make. I met with consultants leading up to that contract and I disagreed with them on lots of stuff, but one area where I did agree with them was that maybe there should be some flexibility in relation to private work. I was satisfied that as long as it was done off-site and in a private hospital, then so be it, once they were abiding by the terms of their contract. That was a flexibility we accepted.  Since then, what we have seen, in my view, are examples of individual consultants, maybe facilitated by some hospital managers or the health system, allowing flexibilities which were not agreed. That is unacceptable and should not be happening. Again, all of us signed up to Sl\u00e1intecare. We all made that very clear. From the minute I got into politics, my view was \"Public money, public hospitals, public contracts\". If people have private health insurance - many do but I do not - good luck to them. They feel they need it. They get private care in private hospitals, and that is not my business. In fact, if anything, we need to be using private hospitals more for public patients and looking at that in a more strategic way. On the public-only contracts, though, there was a focus on one particular issue - the Minister was very strong on it, and I commend her on that - in relation to the Rotunda. It seems that there are much bigger issues here, however. I am conscious of the audit published by the HSE which pointed to those issues. I know the Chair has been very strong and vocal on this. There is a need for the committee and its members to be equally strong and to send out a message that we are standing by these contracts. Any attempt to undermine or unravel them has to be challenged, confronted and dealt with. That, again, is a message that has to come from this committee today.  I am hopeful that message will be sent out on foot of this amendment being moved. For anyone who works in the system, be they management or consultants, who believe they can try to engineer something that skirts or tries to get around contracts that were put in place in good faith - and they are well-paid contracts - they have to be faced down. I hope we all accept that.  That is the spirit in which I have moved this amendment. It is about having this debate year on year in order to see where we are and whether we are getting value for money. On the weekend aspect, it is really important to go back to what I said at the start about the seven-days-a-week health service. Nobody who works in the health service can be an impediment or a block to our getting to that point, including, I would argue, hospital consultants. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Colm Burke  The Minister has already dealt with this issue over recent weeks. I do not believe there is a need for an amendment like this because the Minister has made hospitals fully account for what is happening, and the satisfaction has been taken on it. It is already on the record as regards work done.  In relation to the seven-days-a-week contract, it is important as well that it is not just totally reliant on medical consultants; it is also about having the required number of support staff. That is an issue that has not been looked at in real terms by hospitals. A clinic can be run on a Saturday, but it is on the basis that there are support staff in place to work with the consultant or the senior registrar in charge of operating the clinic. That is an issue that hospitals also need to look at. One of the complaints I am coming across - and I am working with one or two hospitals on this issue - is where they have the staff but do not have the space to run some of the clinics. One hospital, for instance, has to take on additional space because we have recruited all these additional staff but we then do not have the clinic space for them to operate in. We need to look at that as well in order to ensure that we get maximum value out of the people we are employing. It should be remembered that the number of consultants we have has literally dramatically over the past five to six years. That is all very fine, but, for example, I had a consultant who was able to do eight hours of operations in a hospital every week. Then two other consultants were appointed, so there are now three consultants sharing those same eight hours. That is the kind of thing we need to start looking at to make sure that they have the availability of space and of theatre time to do the work they want to do.  I know one consultant who was doing two days of operations a week when they worked in the United States. They came back to Ireland and ended up in a hospital where all they were getting was a half day - and it was an afternoon - to perform operations. Then they were advised that unless the patient was in theatre by 4 p.m., no one else would be allowed in. Those are the kinds of issues we need to look at as regards the use of space and making sure that space is available to allow clinics to be held and throughput to happen. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Martin Daly  While this amendment probably does not have a place here, it gives rise to many pertinent points. I support what Deputies Cullinane and Burke have said, but I want to reflect on the fact that the person who took the strongest stance on the public-only contract - I include the Taoiseach, the Minister, Deputy Chambers, and a number of others in government in this regard - was the Minister. Her stance was unequivocal.  I cannot say the same for the Opposition in all cases. The Minister showed leadership. There was no equivocation or talk about talks and compromise. The Minister realised the importance of upholding the public-only contract because otherwise Sl\u00e1intecare and the Government policy that has received all-party support for the past number of years would unravel. That was extremely important.  In saying that, what has happened in this transition period is that anomalies have been exposed. Practices have been exposed that were built into the system culturally. We need to ensure it is not just about maternity hospitals but that, right throughout our system, hospital by hospital and place by place, these anomalies and practices that built up are now to be seen off the pitch, if there is going to be an even pitch for everyone. At the end of the day, this is about taxpayers' money and a contract that was freely entered into. It is also about the citizen and patient who goes to receive the service.  As we know from all the reports around maternity care, there is no difference in the safety of care between public and private practice. We have very good maternity outcomes because we have a hugely supported public service that supports those outcomes. The same applies to many of our other hospitals but we need to see those. That is where some of the insourcing and outsourcing ran into trouble. The insourcing certainly ran into trouble because it created this moral hazard and conflicts of interest, and we need to see that off the pitch.  While I do not believe the amendment is appropriate, I accept what Deputies Cullinane and Burke said. Deputy Burke made a very good point. If we are going to appoint more consultants, we have to look at the infrastructure too, so that we get the commensurate productivity. That means health and human resources, physical infrastructure and digitalisation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill  I thank the Deputy for raising the insourcing because it allows me to thank the committee for its support for ending that model at the time. That was a necessary step but one we all needed to do together. I thank the committee for its support on that and on the implementation of the public-only consultant contract.  I see this in two ways. The first is that what happened with the Rotunda was, in my view, a direct breach of the terms of the contract. However, I will separate the broader issue, which is essentially a tacit non-implementation. To my mind, that is just as big a problem. It may not be a direct offence to the contract as such, but the non-implementation of the contract is, in my view, an offence to the taxpayer generally, who is paying for it. If I had signed a contract in 2023 that had a specific salary and working hours and, in the following two or three years, I had never been asked to work those hours, I would have asked when I was working on Saturday because I had signed a contract that says I will be available to work on Saturday. I am perfectly happy to receive the salary, and if I was not receiving the salary, I am sure I would be in touch with somebody pretty quickly, but what about the actual fulfilling of the terms of the contract and knowing what that change meant?  There are a couple of different elements to this that Deputies have highlighted, and I think it is important to bring them all together. The first is the consultant roster generally. It is to be available until 10 p.m. and on Saturdays. I do not ever want to hear again the argument that this means consultants cannot work on Wednesday. Yes, we know that. Everybody here is able to count and if someone works on Saturday, that means they do not work on a different day. As I think Mr. Bernard Gloster said in this committee, if there are ten consultants, it is better to have eight working during the week and two at the weekend than to have ten working during the week. That balance is important, so I ask that we please stop hearing the argument repeated to us, from various quarters, that this is difficult because it means people will not be there on a Wednesday.  I also do not want to hear that this is difficult because the support staff need to be there. The unions agreed to work five days over seven. They have stated explicitly that the staff will be there to support the implementation of the public-only consultant contract, which needs to be stood up, managed, led and organised by clinicians. Everybody needs to play their part in that. To give the committee some side examples, one hospital manager told me the support staff are there but she has a difficulty with the consultants where they have a different site because the consultants want to work theatre hours on Saturday but they do not have the nursing support. There is a little bit of implementation to be done and it is everybody's responsibility to be there and implement this.  We have a unique opportunity in that we have a 41% uplift in consultants, we have the consultant roster and we have had union agreement in the public service agreement since 2008, and the unions committed to implementing it more than 12 months ago. It is a unique opportunity and there is an overwhelming moral obligation on every single person working in health to implement that and get this State to a full six-day system in the first instance, recognising that it is twice as expensive on Sundays and the contract is a six-day contract. If we could get to a full, working six-day system, that would transform healthcare in Ireland forever and we would never go back.  One of the hospital managers told me that a consultant recently asked her: \"Do you remember when we used to just leave people on Fridays?\" The culture in that model 4 hospital in Dublin has already changed so much because the consultants in that hospital are being rostered on Saturdays, not to come in and do rounds but to do a full, eight-hour shift and a full, proper working day. What does that mean? It means that if somebody comes into the accident and emergency unit and need to see one of the \"ologies\", for want of a better description, they see them on Saturday morning. Then they are either admitted and there is a plan for them or they are discharged in an appropriate way. That keeps the hospital flowing better but also applies the terms of the contract.  As regards space, Deputy Burke is absolutely right. As we grow the system, we are going to need space but we do not necessarily need that space yet. There are two reasons we know that. One is the outpatient toolkit, which did a baseline analysis of the use of every room in all of the outpatient clinics right around the country, in 41 hospitals. It showed us the room vacancy rate and how that changes over time. In one model 4 hospital in the south west, we saw that the room vacancy rate during the week was between 4% and 9%, but it was 24% on a Friday afternoon. That is not a hospital that needs more rooms. It is a hospital that needs to use the rooms on a Friday afternoon. I have not even seen what the figures are for Tuesday night at 9 p.m. I have been in that hospital on Tuesday night at 9 p.m. and I can tell members that it is not as busy as it was 9 a.m., so the rooms are not being used. In the same way, the outpatient clinic at Merlin Park hospital moved from two clinics per day to three clinics per day and the rooms are being used much better. Naas General Hospital has implemented the outpatient toolkit and is using its rooms much better.  On theatre utilisation, I do not want to hear again of theatre nurses, consultants and porters starting their shifts at different times because it means you do not get knife to skin until 8.30 a.m. or 9.15 a.m. when it could have been at 7.30 a.m. How can you stand over that? There is a certain measure of logical organisation that means you get into theatre as early as possible. How surgeons does it take? Why do we not fully use every single theatre? Deputy Burke is correct about the idea of a theatre not being available after 4 p.m. or that it only operates from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. Why? The hospital is still there. We have contracts that enable people to work in those hours. Why is it not running from 7 a.m. or 8 a.m. until 10 p.m. or 11 p.m., six days a week? We have all of these theatre, which have been fitted out all over the country, and we are building more. We are also building surgical hubs and elective hospitals. The Deputy is right about elective hospitals but we cannot build them for them to sit idle for eight hours of the day when they could be used. The public-only consultant contract gave us the route to a public system but also massively extended hours, so we need to fill the rooms we have with activity before accepting the argument that we would do it if we could get the staff around us or if we could only get the room. The rooms are there.  Look at the baseline data on the outpatient toolkit, hospital by hospital. Look at the utilisation of diagnostics, and I am having a specific project done on the national integrated medical imaging system, NIMIS, so we can look at the utilisation of the diagnostic equipment that is there. Look at the utilisation of the theatres around the country. I remember, in the case of endometriosis, a project to have additional surgeries. I was pushing for an extra 100 surgeries in the final quarter of 2025 and we got 142, for which I thank the clinical community. However, at one point I was told elective surgeries could not be done in the Coombe after 5 p.m. Sorry, but why? It was because the theatre manager said so. I am sorry but none of that makes sense.  We have more than we think we have. We have more resources and infrastructure than we think we have. We now have a contract that enables us to use those in a structured and important way. We have it with outpatients, rooms and theatres. We have it everywhere but we need to utilise the contract.  I thank members for highlighting the audit, which was done in a period up to August 2025. Members will recall that Bernard Gloster and I gave a direction, I think in April 2025, to say we were giving three months notice, which is required in the contract, that the public-only consultant contract was to be implemented, that is, rosters on Saturday and in the evenings. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I ask the Minister to conclude. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill  We have spent all year doing regional forums to investigate how that is being implemented. It is not just the disappointing figures by the end of August. My figures, which have not been formally published, show that now that the doctors integrated management e-system, DIME, has been stood up, which should have been done years ago, and the work plans are being uploaded to it, with nearly 90% now uploaded, the level of planning to work in the evenings and at weekends is woefully low. I have required that it be changed, essentially, within the next four weeks. It is not okay. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marie Sherlock","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Marie Sherlock  Certainly, from our perspective, we support all efforts to ensure the maximisation of the capacity that exists within acute hospitals. The point I would make to the Minister, though, is that we know there is a dire shortage of step-down care to get people out of our acute hospitals. It is important to say in terms of the utilisation of space within our acute hospitals. I fully support everything the Minister is doing, but we know there are very serious issues around the country with regard to step-down care where people are basically languishing who should be discharged from hospital but cannot be because of the lack of step-down care. That is important to say.  In relation to this amendment, which we support, Deputy Daly has made a number of attempts now to try to goad the Opposition. It is important to say that the Labour Party has been unequivocal about the public-only consultant contract and getting private care out of public hospitals. What I will say, though, and somebody might be able to shed light on this because it is important and relevant to the amendment, is that there is a specific clause within the contract. We can talk about the spirit and intent of the public-only contract and then look at the actual terminology that is included. There is a provision there and I do not understand why it is there and I do not support its existence within the contract. I refer to clause 24.10. Obviously, the Rotunda got itself into a shocking amount of trouble, which it should never have got itself into, with regard to the use of this particular clause within the public-only consultant contract. I have a very real concern that other hospitals away from the gaze of public scrutiny or, indeed, the scrutiny of this committee will end up using that clause at times in the future and I believe that is wrong. I want to hear why that clause is there, why it is being justified and whether there is any effort being made to actually take it out because for as long as it is there, there is a real question mark about the extent to which we can fully stand over and say that a public-only contract is a public-only contract. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank the Deputy very much. So people are aware, in two weeks' time, we are going to have a full session on this for two and a half hours to discuss the public-only contract and operation of maternity services with officials from the HSE, the Department of Health, the Rotunda Hospital and Cork University Maternity Hospital. We will have a full and frank discussion on many of these issues. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marie Sherlock","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Marie Sherlock  Of course, but it is important when the Minister is here that we have that conversation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill  If I may come in, I can add to that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I am sorry, Minister. There is a list and we will stick to it. I will very briefly echo Deputy Sherlock's comments. There are many people who have been quite strong on that issue over the last number of weeks.  I call Deputy Cullinane. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Cullinane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy David Cullinane  We can have a debate any time about hospital beds, step-down facilities and step-down beds and all the other issues that can be raised in relation to capacity in the health service. In my opinion, and I am just giving my opinion, none of that is an excuse for the non-implementation of a contract that was signed in good faith by consultants. What we are talking about here, as far as I can see, are well-paid contracts and well-paid consultants who signed up in good faith. That contract was negotiated, by the way, by the IMO, which is the representative body, with consultants to put in place a contract that had flexibilities and could have support and, in fact, did have support because many switched over to those contracts and, of course, all new contracts now are public only.  The easier part to deal with is where there are breaches. I commend the Minister, by the way, for dealing with the easier parts initially. We saw that with the Rotunda Hospital. We need to be very strong and very robust when we have breaches that are being stood over by either voluntary hospitals, which are funded almost exclusively by the State and by the taxpayer, or by any other hospital. Where we have those breaches, that obviously needs to be dealt with very strongly and very robustly. It is probably the easier part. The more difficult part is the non-implementation.  That brings me to the HSE audit because it is a bit like the debate we are having about the children's hospital and how we hold the contractor to account. Maybe the legal levers were not strong enough in the first place and now we are at the mercy of a contractor. I do not know what legal levers or other levers are available to the Minister in relation to the non-implementation of the contracts. Maybe she can set that out because it will be important for us when we are actually having that session in a couple of weeks' time. Whatever levers exist that the Minister has to deal with this need to be exercised and used. I am heartened by her very robust and strong contributions today in relation to all of that, so I have no doubt that the Minister will deal with this in a very direct and robust way. I anticipated, as many of us did, that what would happen when the contracts were put in place was that any and every attempt would be made to not implement the contracts, slow it down and then bring in all sorts of erroneous arguments. They are genuine in their own right - we need more beds, more space and more step-down facilities. These are all issues we can debate at any time, but nobody is going to convince me that any of those issues are the reason we have non-implementation of those contracts. It is for other reasons that consultants are doing that. We know why it is and it has to be stamped out and faced down. I will be fully supporting whatever way the Minister does that because I stand foursquare behind those public-only contracts. It is the best way.  I am not giving the Minister a free pass while she is here. I am also conscious that we have over 1 million people in some form of health waiting list if we look at acute, primary and community care. I am very concerned about community waiting lists. There are lists in mental health, older people and all of those areas where we have lots of challenges. The Minister has a responsibility, of course, to be dealing with those issues as well, absolutely, but we are never dealing with waiting lists, the situation of patients on trolleys or all the other pressures we have in the health service unless we are getting bang for buck with the health service working seven days per week and we are utilising the very expensive equipment, buildings and staff we have and getting value for money. I want to get to that place. I will work with anybody and everybody, including the Minister, to get to that place, which is one of the reasons I tabled all of the amendments I tabled today. It is to have that discussion with the Minister and put on record my very strong view that this is where we need to get to. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank the Deputy. Hopefully, we will get some other observations on this as well. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill  I thank the Deputy very much. That is exactly the point. Everything else, including all of the inpatient day cases and the surgical lists, needs the implementation of the public-only consultant contract. The outpatient tool kit in reducing those numbers needs the implementation of the public-only contract. I will add the step-down facilities to the list of reasons why the public-only consultant contract is difficult along with how we need the people around us and we need more rooms. Step-down facilities are important. I just outlined two in Cork that we saw last week. There is no question that there are delayed transfers of care. In Letterkenny, for example, they have about 30 at the moment. There is also a 100-bed community nursing unit across the road. Let us stop, as health leaders, giving excuses or explanations as to why it cannot work, including never hearing again that means it is difficult on Wednesday. It just has to stop. This is the contract and it has to be implemented.  Deputy Sherlock referred to the section 24 clause. I have heard her refer to it in the media. I would ask her to stop bringing this ambiguity into it. That clause was there to get rid of some post-Covid lists and in the case of an emergency. I appreciate that the Rotunda brought this ambiguity in relation to it. It actively used clause 24.10 for the purpose that it wanted to. It did not come and say that it thought there was something wrong with this contract and that we might need to reflect and think about it. No, it said it would like to continue doing this and this is how it has decided to do it, in essence. I am paraphrasing but, in essence, that is what it said. The contract very specifically states, for example, in that instance, that the Rotunda was the employer directly. Obviously, a contract does not live in isolation. A contract does not override statute law. It certainly does not override a service level agreement, SLA, with the State, which very clearly states that you must comply with Government policy. Section 24, at a contractual level, states that it is only in circumstances where a derogation can be given with the express permission of the Minister and the HSE. I have said that repeatedly. We need to set aside that red herring, which came from what source? The Rotunda itself. I ask the Deputy to set that aside. She is entitled----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marie Sherlock","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Marie Sherlock  It is there in black and white. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill  She is entitled to raise questions with me. I ask her to reflect on the legal advice she has received. I ask her to stop reflecting the language of the different interests and to take the State's position sometimes. That is the argument that was advanced by the Rotunda, which I refuted and which is incorrect. It is incorrect at contractual level, SLA level and Government policy level. It is not correct and I ask that we end that piece of dialogue. It is also not correct in the context of the contract that has been signed by individual leaders. Apart from anything else, not only is it incorrect in law but it is incorrect in the spirit of it as well. We have an opportunity to deliver a public-only consultant contract, POCC. That is the only way of delivering a six-day and, ultimately, if we get to it, a seven-day system. There are different examples of where it is being used really well, for example, in the mid-west in Limerick. I want to call out Dr. Catherine Peters as a clinical director of excellence who, with the lowest POCC uptake, has delivered the best Saturday rostering and the best use of that. Now, they are doing it with a lot of a lot of overtime as well because they have such a low POCC uptake, so it is the contract B holders. They are doing it in a way that delivers for patients much better than they were before.  Meanwhile Dublin north-east is not doing it at the same level. We are seeing the implementation now. It is something the committee can track. The work practice plans are so important. This means the consultant and clinical director sitting down together and agreeing the plan, for example, that the consultant will be available on whatever night of the week until 10 p.m. and every fourth or sixth Saturday, or whatever, and the clinical director can plan the hospital on that basis. Imagine if all 3,500 people who signed their work practice plan, having signed the public-only consultant contract, did not then reflect the terms of that contract. What was worse is that the clinical leadership, both at clinical director level and regional clinical director level, during a period of focused implementation of this contract, at regional meeting after regional meeting to discuss how this was being done, for instance, who was getting an extra Saturday clinic and what was being done about extra diagnostics, accepted so many contracts that do not reflect that implementation. I really struggle with that. We will fix it; we have to get it fixed. The clinical community and clinical leadership need to understand the level of importance we place on this from the perspective of the patient, the taxpayer and the system more broadly. I thank Deputies for their support for that today. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Does Deputy Sherlock wish to come back in? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marie Sherlock","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Marie Sherlock  No. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Cullinane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy David Cullinane  I welcome the robustness of the Minister's approach to this issue. It is really refreshing. The approach of previous health Ministers I have dealt with was not so robust. That very direct, hands-on approach is necessary and we should not be afraid, as Opposition spokespersons, to say we will stand behind the State, whether it is the Minister, the head of the HSE or the head of the Department, because we are all, collectively, signed up to this and have a vested interest in making sure it works. If this works, it will benefit the health service. Whatever benefits the health service benefits patients, which is a good thing for all of us. I want to get to that point.  We will have a session next week, I think. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  It is in two weeks' time. Next week is the meeting with the Secretary General. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Cullinane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy David Cullinane  I do not think we will have time to meet again before the summer recess. After the session in two weeks, it will be important to have the Minister in again later in the year for a fuller discussion on this issue and an update on progress and how we are getting on. I hope we will learn a lot from the session we have. The committee in its work will look under the bonnet of this. That would be a very useful session.  This is the last of my amendments. I hope the issues we raised will bring some clarity to the areas where we need more accountability in the health service. I thank the Minister for the directness of her approach to this particular issue and other issues.  There are people in the Gallery from Waterford. Waterford hospital is also one of the hospitals that performs very well. Consultants were working at weekends for a long number of years. This is one of the reasons we had no patients on trolleys for many years. Grace Rothwell, who was the manager of the hospital, was instrumental in that. That story and those good examples need to be told over and over. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 4 agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I suggest we take a short break. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Sitting suspended at 11.03 a.m. and resumed at 11.08 a.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sections 5 to 14, inclusive, agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 15"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Amendments Nos. 4 and 5 are related and may be discussed together. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marie Sherlock","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Marie Sherlock  I move amendment No. 4:  In page 10, between lines 19 and 20, to insert the following:  \u201c(f) indicate the extent to which the Executive is able, within the level of resources it considers likely to be available to it for the period to which the corporate plan relates, to\u2014  (i) discharge all of its functions under and in accordance with this Act, including maintaining the type and volume of health and personal social services provided at the commencement of the plan period, and  (ii) implement the priorities and achieve the goals and outcomes specified in the strategic direction statement in respect of health services priorities provided under section 28A and the strategic direction statement in respect of specialist community-based disability services priorities provided under section 28B,  (g) where the Executive considers it would not be able to fully discharge its functions or fully implement those priorities or achieve those goals and outcomes within those resources, identify\u2014  (i) the services, priorities, goals or outcomes which it considers cannot be so provided, implemented or achieved,  (ii) the constraints arising from the level of resources likely to be available to the Executive which would prevent full discharge, implementation or achievement, and  (iii) the measures, if any, which the Executive proposes to take to mitigate those constraints,  and  (h) specify the level of resources which the Executive considers would be required to\u2014  (i) discharge its functions in the manner described in paragraph (f)(i), and  (ii) implement the priorities and achieve the goals and outcomes referred to in paragraph (f)(ii).\u201d.  We are all very supportive of this Bill. The need to strengthen accountability in the HSE is very clearly recognised and I support everything this Bill is trying to achieve and do. However, I think there is scope to push the Bill a little further on the transparency of health budgeting. While we all have a shared ambition regarding the cost-effectiveness of what the public purse is spending on health and accountability, there is a very real issue. The health budget is resource hungry. Some would say it has an insatiable appetite for money. The Minister engages in negotiations with the Minister for public expenditure and reform and a certain figure comes out of those.  There is an issue because we have seen both in 2024 and this year that what is agreed ends up, for perhaps a number of reasons, not being sufficient nor well spent. Amendments Nos. 4 and 5 seek to introduce reporting at the point at which both the corporate plan and, in particular, the performance delivery plan are adopted. It is not just about setting out whether the HSE has enough but also specifies the specific service, why it does not have enough if it does not have enough, and what budget is required to meet the ministerial priorities as set out by the Minister for Health in her letter of determination to the HSE.  It is very important to say that section 23 talks about the corrective action proposal. That is fine. These amendments do not seek to duplicate or seek to cut across that in any shape or form. The amendments seek to insert a process at the start of the budgeting, just after the budget is announced and after the Minister has sent her letter of determination to the HSE. They do not confer a right to the HSE to seek additional resources. The amendments seek to introduce a duty of disclosure and transparency on the HSE regarding whether it can work with the resources that it has been given.  Let us look at what happened in 2024 when the HSE, in its national service plan, set out that what it was being given in the budget was not sufficient or that running the existing level of service would exceed the funding that had been made available. There is a political problem there because that was approved in that form. Subsequently, there was an overrun of \u20ac1.1 billion and the Government had to approve a supplementary budget of \u20ac1.5 billion. Supplementary Estimates have now been banned but we are into a situation where, in the first quarter of 2026, the HSE was \u20ac250 million over budget and three regions were in tier 3 escalations. There are very serious questions about what will happen with that plus the \u20ac175 million levy, which is effectively a cut, that is being applied to the health budget because of the spend in education.  There are very serious issues with the HSE costs overrun and how that will be dealt with. That might be differently dealt with if it is known at the start of the year that the cost of maintaining the existing level of services will be more than what the HSE is being given. In that regard, amendment No. 4 seeks the insertion of an additional requirement in the mandatory content of the corporate plan to ensure that the HSE sets out whether it can provide the services, as set out by the Minister in her ministerial priorities, with the allocated funding. As I say, it is not just to say whether it can or cannot. It has to specific the which, why and the what.  Similarly, amendment No. 5 relates to the mandatory element of the performance delivery plan. Amendment No. 5 is probably the more important of the two amendments because that process takes place immediately after the HSE gets the Minister's letter of determination.  The amendments seek a resource adequacy process be put in place at the start of the accounting period to ensure that we have an open and transparent conversation about whether the HSE is getting enough to match the ministerial priorities. None of us wants to see a situation where the HSE overruns its budget and controls must be put in place. An honest conversation must happen after the Government has made its budgetary allocation. I say this in support of the Minister saying that she needs to be given more than what she is given, in particular with regard to the capital budget. To be clear, these two amendments only relate to the current spending, not the capital spend. Ultimately, they seek to ensure that honest and transparent disclosure takes places on the part of the HSE to say whether it can work with the allocated resources. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill  The Government agrees the budget within the resources of the day and that changes over time, as the Deputy is aware. I will make the strongest case that I can for the strongest portion of that for the health budget but thereafter that is the health budget. Amendment No. 4 is the greatest free pass that I have ever seen for poor performance management. We get a budget and the HSE is responsible for delivering it. By the way, Sl\u00e1intecare says that there should be regions that are responsible for the allocation of funding and that they should set their own priorities within the allocated funding. We are creating a structure for multi-annual funding, which I know the Deputy supports, to plan over a period for a longer term structure.  Amendment No. 4 states:  (f) indicate the extent to which the Executive is able, within the level of resources it considers likely to be available to ...  (i) discharge all of its functions ... and  (ii) implement the priorities and achieve the goals ...  How does that work in practice? The HSE will come back and say that it will be able to do this but not that. What about the other elements? What about productivity, activity-based funding and holding people to account? We have literally just had a conversation about agency. Is it a case of saying \"Sorry\" to the Minister because the HSE is just not able to do that because it does not have enough, and when asked what it is doing about agency conversion, it says that we just did not give it enough? The amendment is a complete free pass for poor budgeting and poor budgetary management. The Deputy assumes in this amendment that everybody is running the service as well as they can. The Deputy assumes that, for example, the investment that we have put in is being utilised. This Oireachtas has funded additional virtual beds around the country. There are 40 in Limerick and 40 in St. Vincent's. Limerick has a utilisation of about 25. Last week, I visited the Mercy hospital. It has ten beds but only one to three of them are routinely used. After allocating money, what about the conversation about how the HSE is using it? Where is the accountability? The amendment outlines the worst possible way to structure a health budget. I would rather talk about the granular detail of accountability and asking why, after we funded a hospital's virtual beds, it had only used three of them when it could have used ten and there were 18 people on trolleys. The measure of granularity is how resources are used. That is what is important.  Amendment No. 4 states: \"the extent to which the Executive is able\". Where is the Oireachtas in that? Where is the accountability by the extremely well-paid managers within the HSE whose job it is to implement exactly what we have been talking about, namely, the public-only consultant contract to achieve better productivity? People may apologise and say that they do not have enough money to get additional rooms, but they should use their rooms better.  Let us have an amendment that deals with productivity and activity-based funding and seeks accountability for how taxpayers' money is used, not one that creates a structure whereby there is a political conversation about how the Government of the day did not give the HSE enough resources to meet its obligations. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marie Sherlock","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Marie Sherlock  No, that is not right, Minister. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill  I do not accept the amendment, nor the premise behind it. I am here all day every day for a conversation about accountability for the way in which money is used and how we are trying to deliver productivity by consultants. We have put a great deal of money into the health system but it has not been matched by increases in activity or improvements in access. Across the acute hospitals services, very significant increases in funding have been delivered but the growth has been modest. Staffing in model 4 hospitals has increased by 36% between 2019 and 2025, with a 10% increase in activity. Let us table an amendment on that - not on whether the HSE can do it within the resources, but on whether it is doing it and why it has not. Activity levels have risen but output has not increased with additional staff employed. There is already more scope to increase productivity. Why has it not been done? Let us have that conversation.  We need to get more from the capacity we already have. We have had this conversation. We all agreed to it 25 minutes ago. We discussed extended hours, better deployment of workforce and maximising the use of the existing infrastructure. Let us use what we have that the taxpayers' of this State have already paid for and then go further and do it in a really intelligent way that gets the best for every penny.  Amendment No. 4 commences with the words: \"indicate the extent to which the Executive is able\". I view that as a total free pass for bad budgeting. I would rather talk about the granularity of budget accountability and the use of resources that have already been paid for. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marie Sherlock","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Marie Sherlock  Regretfully, there is a lot of detail in the amendments that is not reflected in the response by the Minister. Clearly, these amendments are about trying to have that productivity and state in black and white why the HSE cannot deliver with resources that are being allocated to it by the Government.  It is not just about not getting enough money. It is about specifically setting out what, why and which services will be impacted because they cannot spend. Why is the funding not sufficient? To the contrary, this goes to the heart of how we have a conversation about transparent productivity.  Another key point to make is that I am not clear as to why the HSE has overspent by \u20ac250 million this year. What I hear from the Minister is that it is poor management performance. Will the Minister clarify whether it is this or whether there are also other factors?. We have not had an explanation and, hopefully, we will have it next week from the head of the HSE. What is the Minister's perspective as to why the HSE has gone so far over budget? None of us want to see a situation where corrective measures are being taken because that has a very real impact on patients. Is it poor performance by the senior leadership of the HSE or are there other factors? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill  To be very clear, I did not say that this year's was as a result of that. What I said was that I believe Deputy Sherlock's amendment will give a free pass for bad budgeting management in the future. This year the budget overrun, and the committee can discuss this in more detail at its upcoming meeting with the HSE, arises from two things in particular. One is the purchase of private beds and private supports to support discharge out of acute hospitals, particularly during a very busy flu season and extremely high presentations, especially in the first three months of the year. We are moving to a better and more standardised process for the purchase of private beds and this is a very important budgetary change. It is a necessary reform and is a reform that should deliver savings and not go over. This is not encompassed in Deputy Sherlock's amendment. Another issue is the over-reliance on agency, as we have discussed, particularly in the mid-west and south west. This is something that requires reform and performance management and not more money. It requires doing it in the resources that were allocated in last year's budget. These are the two big drivers and that is my perspective.  There is also an overwhelmingly increasing drugs budget. It has increased by 11% this year. This is not something we can control; it is demand. It is increased population and people being prescribed drugs. While we would have argued for an 11% uplift in the drugs budget, we got 8% or 9%. Certainly, we knew the drugs budget was going to be bigger than the allocation we got. This is something that is a little bit out of our control. It is not a reform measure; it is a cost measure. The other two are very definitely reform measures.  I do not accept what Deputy Sherlock said regarding her amendment being about productivity. The amendment proposes:  (g) where the Executive considers it would not be able to fully discharge its functions or fully implement those priorities or achieve those goals and outcomes within those resources, identify\u2014  (i) the services, priorities, goals or outcomes which it considers cannot be so provided, implemented or achieved,  (ii) the constraints arising from the level of resources likely to be available to the Executive which would prevent full discharge, implementation or achievement, and  (iii) the measures, if any, which the Executive proposes to take to mitigate those constraints,  and  (h) specify the level of resources which the Executive considers would be required to\u2014  (i) discharge its functions in the manner described in paragraph (f)  The amendment does not talk about reform; it only talks about more money and it only talks about a complaint. I have had this with different regions wanting to do something and getting an indicative figure of \u20ac1 million or whatever it happens to be. It is about reorganisation. We have increased our health budget over ten years and particularly in the past five years we have increased it by 36% on the acute side and 25% to 30% overall. What are we getting for it? Where is the productivity? Let us have an amendment that focuses on productivity and not on explanations for why things cannot be done. I have just given three reasons for why the budget has increased this year, two of which are based on reform and one of which is something that is just going to continue to increase in cost, which is the drugs budget, and there is no question that this is difficult for us. The other issues are to do with performance.  When we do not have a room vacancy rate of 24% on a Friday afternoon, when we have theatre utilisation so we are not building up waiting lists and using the NTPF to fund procedures that could be done were our theatres used differently, and our public only consultant contracts are used differently, then let us have that conversation. However, on the basis that we have already put in all of this additional money and we have not seen the output or the productivity from it, let us keep focused on the productivity and the essence of Sl\u00e1intecare, which is delivering that and delivering activity-based funding. Let us have this transparent conversation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marie Sherlock","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Marie Sherlock  With regard to requiring accountability from the HSE, and why it cannot actually----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill  It is not politically realistic. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marie Sherlock","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Marie Sherlock  The Minister raised the drugs budget. Demographics are obviously a huge part of the drugs budget, as is the increasing complexity of care. From memory, in previous health budgets there was normally a line on a provision for demographics. I do not believe we saw this in budget 2026. There is a lack of transparency in terms of the amount of money the Minister has been allocated----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill  There was a clear uplift in the drugs budget. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  We are not having a back and forth. Deputy Sherlock is speaking and we will then go back to the Minister. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marie Sherlock","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Marie Sherlock  The point is the Department got less for the drugs budget this year than what is required. What are we going to do about that? Are we going to have a conversation about the demographic factors that are driving demand in certain areas and then make sure it is either provided for or that there are reforms? At the moment we do not have this transparency. There is an element that we know there is a shortfall and none of us are going to be any the wiser at the end of the year as to who precisely has lost out because not enough money has been allocated to the drugs budget. I want to have that transparent conversation.  I want to see our budget on health well-spent. This is the motive and intent behind these amendments. It is about making sure that when the Minister sends the letter of determination, the HSE then makes clear what it will deliver because, frankly, we should not have a situation where we have cost overruns. Reorganisation is a critical part of this but it is about making sure we have accountability from the HSE at the start of the year as opposed to saying halfway through the year that we are \u20ac250 million over budget. That should not be happening. This is to try to help the political system and the public to understand what the HSE is doing and to provide answers as to why it is not doing enough on agency spend and all of the other inefficiencies that exist. The motivation, spirit and detail here are not, as the Minister describes, a free pass but to set out what and why it cannot deliver with the resourcing it has been given. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill  I do not accept that at all. The national service plan sets out exactly what the HSE is going to do in the budget allocation it has received. With regard to the drugs budget, we do not want anybody to be prejudiced. Nobody has been prejudiced because we have spent the money. It is also true that within the allocation people are required to make non-pay savings - let us see the detail of that - to reduce their reliance on agency and to streamline procurement and other measures in order to come within the overall budget envelope, which is set by the State and the Government of which I am a member. I have to agree collectively on the amount of money available and the allocation the health budget will receive.  We received an uplift of \u20ac1.5 billion, which is 5% to 6%, last year. It is a huge uplift but we have to get something for it. Yes, we need more money for drugs and we are going to continue to need more money for drugs but we are not going to prejudice the drugs budget because somebody has not got their act together on agency conversion. We have to do both. It is not an either-or conversation. I am sorry to say that I think Deputy Sherlock's amendment is a free pass. We should be having a more detailed productivity conversation and if we have a disagreement on that point then we will have a disagreement on that point. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 15 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sections 16 to 18, inclusive, agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 19"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marie Sherlock","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Marie Sherlock  I move amendment No. 5:  In page 16, between lines 7 and 8, to insert the following:  \"(k) indicate the extent to which the Executive is able, within the section 30A(1) determination and, where applicable, the section 30B(1) determination for the period to which the plan relates, to\u2014  (i) provide the type and volume of health and personal social services indicated under paragraph (a), and  (ii) implement the priorities and performance targets specified in the statement of health services priorities provided to the Board under section 30C and the statement of priorities for specialist community-based disability services provided to the Board under section 30D,  (l) where the Executive is not able to fully achieve the matters referred to in paragraph (k) within those determinations, identify\u2014  (i) the services, priorities or performance targets which cannot be so provided or implemented,  (ii) the constraints arising from the level of those determinations which prevent full provision or implementation, and  (iii) the measures, if any, which the Executive proposes to take to mitigate those constraints,  and  (m) specify the level of resources which the Executive considers would be required to\u2014  (i) provide the type and volume of health and personal social services indicated under paragraph (a), and  (ii) fully implement the priorities and performance targets referred to in paragraph (k)(ii).\". "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 19 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sections 20 to 25, inclusive, agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"NEW SECTION"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill  I move amendment No. 6:  In page 24, between lines 19 and 20, to insert the following new section:   \"Amendment of section 42(1) of Principal Act   26. Section 42(1) of the Principal Act is amended by the substitution of the following paragraph for paragraph (a):  \"(a) establish such number (not exceeding 6) of regional health forums as the Minister considers appropriate, and\".\".  This amendment updates the legislative provision governing the HSE's regional health forums. Under the Health Act 2004 the number of forums is capped at four but, of course, there are now six HSE regions. The amendment aligns the forums with the health regions.  It increases the maximum number from four to six. It is a straightforward update to keep pace with legislation and reform. The statutory role and functions of the forums will remain unchanged. We all know that the forums provide a mechanism for elected representatives from city and county councils to raise local service matters with the HSE aligning it. The forum is really important as it keeps it more local and provides the option for local management to be asked local questions. The amendment is consistent with Sl\u00e1intecare and aligning the forums with the regional structures, including regional patient and service user councils and regional voluntary forums. That is the purpose of it. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sections 26 to 28, inclusive agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"TITLE"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question proposed: \"That the Title be the Title to the Bill.\""},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill  Did I mention I would table amendments on multi-annual funding on Report Stage? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Yes. Does anybody else wish to flag their wish to table amendments on Report Stage? I may also table some amendments on Report Stage. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill  I may table a necessary amendment to the Health Information Act. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Muiris O'Connor","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Muiris O'Connor  There is consideration under way as to the adequacy and robustness of the existing legal basis for the accountability and performance oversight that the Minister exercises. Our current plight is that it is adequate but we are engaging with the Attorney General----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill  Just to flag up a possible amendment on Report Stage. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Muiris O'Connor","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Muiris O'Connor  -----to ensure the legal basis for the Minister requesting and receiving information. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill  Yes, that is great. I wish to flag a possible amendment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Muiris O'Connor","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Muiris O'Connor  Work is under way. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I make members aware that there may be additional amendments on Report Stage. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Bill reported with amendment."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank the Minister for Health and her officials for attending today's meeting and for the considerable work done on this matter and other business. Do Members have any other business they wish to raise at this point? No. The meeting is concluded. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Health (Amendment) Bill 2025: Committee Stage"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/select_committee_on_health\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_3","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Message to D\u00e1il","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  In accordance with Standing Order 110, the following message will be sent to the D\u00e1il:  The Select Committee on Health has completed its consideration of the Health (Amendment) Bill 2025 and has made an amendment thereto. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The select committee adjourned at 11.33 a.m. sine die ."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Message to D\u00e1il"}]}}]},"contextDate":"2026-06-17"},{"debateRecord":{"house":{"showAs":"34th D\u00e1il","committeeCode":"","houseCode":"dail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/house\/dail\/34","chamberType":"house","houseNo":"34"},"chamber":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/def\/house\/dail","showAs":"D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann"},"lastUpdated":"2026-06-22T09:25:55+00:00","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-17\/debate\/main","formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-17\/debate\/mul@\/main.xml"},"pdf":null},"date":"2026-06-17","counts":{"contributorCount":169,"divisionCount":13,"debateSectionCount":27,"questionCount":0,"billCount":18},"debateType":"debate","debateSections":[{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_2","debateType":"topical","bill":null,"showAs":"\u00c1bhair Shaincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Matters","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aindrias Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aindrias Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Aindrias Moynihan)  I wish to advise the House of the following matters in respect of which notice has been given under Standing Order 39 and the name of the Member in each case:  Deputy Joe Cooney - To discuss industrial development and employment opportunities in the mid-west region.  Deputy Robert O'Donoghue - To discuss provision of a permanent two-classroom SEN facility and PE hall for Balscadden National School.  Deputies Sorca Clarke and Martin Kenny - To discuss the Peterhead Ten.  Deputy Barry Ward - To discuss the status of the assessment for the drug givinostat for patients with Duchenne muscular dystrophy.  Deputy Fionnt\u00e1n \u00d3 S\u00failleabh\u00e1in - To discuss emergency winter funding for rural roads in Wicklow and Wexford.  Deputy Shane Moynihan - To discuss delays in reimbursement under the cross-border healthcare directive.  Deputy Pa Daly - To discuss funding for a building to include an autism unit in a Kerry school (details supplied).  Deputy Darren O'Rourke - To discuss access to, and staffing for, the summer programme for 2026.  Deputy Louise O'Reilly - To discuss the national child poverty target.  Deputy Pat Buckley - To discuss an application for an interim ancillary grant by a national school in Mitchelstown.  Deputy Malcolm Byrne - To discuss the development of Bunclody Community College, County Wexford.  Deputy Michael Murphy - To discuss the recruitment of a consultant ophthalmologist in south Tipperary.  Deputy Gary Gannon - To discuss the proposed reforms of the criminal legal aid system.  Deputy Paul Murphy - To discuss the decision of South Dublin County Council to increase council, HAP and homeless HAP rents from July.  Deputy Maurice Quinlivan - To discuss funding for the roll-out of BusConnects in Limerick city.  Deputy Barry Heneghan - To discuss the proposed relocation of An Post's Harmonstown sorting office and the impact on local postal services.  Deputy Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire - To discuss the timeline to progress the Cork southern distributor link multimodal route.  Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa - To discuss appropriate school places for children with challenging needs in County Louth.  The matters raised by Deputies Barry Ward, Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa, Darren O'Rourke, Robert O'Donoghue and Joe Cooney have been selected for discussion. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"\u00c1bhair Shaincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Matters"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_3","debateType":"topical","bill":null,"showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":false,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_4","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Medicinal Products","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_4","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Ward.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Barry-Ward.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Ward.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Barry-Ward.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Ward  I acknowledge that the Minister is here in person. It does not always happen for Topical Issues but I am grateful for the fact that she is here. It is probably a reflection of the fact that she is getting the same emails I am getting from people in our constituency who are affected by Duchenne muscular dystrophy.  I am sure the Minister already knows about it but Duchenne muscular dystrophy is a condition that affects muscular restoration and muscular development, mostly in boys although not exclusively. It occurs from about the age of four. It is a degenerative condition. Over time, it restricts the ability of those boys to do things that all our children take for granted, simple things, whether that is getting up after a fall, getting up out of a chair, getting in and out of a car or climbing stairs. Over time, that gets worse and worse until eventually they cannot stand independently or cannot stand up at all. Unfortunately, the nature of this condition is that as it gets worse and worse, boys who suffer from it will often not be able to walk by the age of 12. This is, therefore, a heartbreaking condition for parents as they watch their young children unable to do the things their peers are able to do. That degenerative nature of the disease must be extraordinarily difficult for them. It is a rare disease. I know there are different assessments as to how common it is. Ultimately, it does not affect a huge number of people but those people whom it does affect are deeply affected by it, not only the families and the extended families but also, obviously, the people who suffer from it themselves.  The Minister is aware that families were in here last week, a year after they first brought this to our attention, to have a meeting to inform many of the Members of this House about the situation in relation to Duchenne muscular dystrophy and the treatments that are available. Many Members will have attended that briefing in the audiovisual room. The families referred specifically to givinostat, a drug that is available for the treatment of the condition. Givinostat is really important because it is a turning point in the treatment of Duchenne muscular dystrophy. It cancels out some of the enzymes that prevent muscular development and muscular restoration. The muscles of young boys who suffer from Duchenne's are generally wasting away; they cannot restore themselves. Now there is a drug that is available and has been approved, for example, in the United States and provisionally in the European Union and that can treat that specific cause and deal with the enzyme that prevents the muscles from regenerating and being restored. It acts as a pause or a stop on the progress of the disease.  There are a couple of difficulties with it, however. The first is that it is not something that can be taken at any stage in a sufferer with Duchenne's. There are boys who are no longer eligible to take givinostat because of the delays in getting the drug approved in this jurisdiction. There are other boys who are approaching the point at which they will not be able to take it. Time is therefore of the essence in this matter. As one parent who wrote to me said, time is muscle when it comes to Duchenne's. Again, I am sure the Minister is familiar with these issues.  Those parents who have children who suffer from Duchenne's are therefore incredibly anxious that this drug will progress. I know that was a meeting - last week, I think - of the senior management team or that this is progressing through the Minister's Department. What I would really like her to tell us, though, is the progress in relation to givinostat; whether the families can expect that this drug will be available not only to them but on the same terms that it is available in other parts of the island - for example, in Northern Ireland; and if she can tell parents, conscious that time is muscle and conscious that there are kids who need this drug urgently, if this will progress in such a way that it will be available to them in the short term, or when it will be available to them. This heartbreaking disease can be stopped in its tracks for some patients, and we should be doing everything we can to ensure that happens. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Health (Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill)  I thank Deputy Ward for raising this issue. This is something I have been working on with families for over a year now, since this drug was approved by the European Medicines Agency. I have met many of those families. I met them when they were here last week, before they had their audiovisual room briefing, I have met them four, five or six times online and I met them past year in person - I have met them so many different times. Together, we have been working to try to get this drug approved within the Irish system.  As the Deputy will be aware, when a drug is approved at a European Medicines Agency level, it does not necessarily mean that it will be available in Ireland. Why? It is because it is necessary for the drugs company to make an application to have the drug available in Ireland. It is not as though Ireland simply gets it as a matter of course. The HSE needs an application to be made. The drug company has to choose to want to sell it here. We have been trying to encourage Italco Pharma for some time to make the appropriate application.  The drug was approved in June of last year. I immediately met families in relation to the next steps. We did not get an application from the maker of givinostat for some time, so we all engaged in a lobbying campaign in different ways. I met the Italian health minister, Mr. Schillaci, in Luxembourg to encourage him to ask the company to make an application in Ireland. I made the same ask of him again at a later stage, in November, in South Africa, at the G20 meeting. The Taoiseach has been involved in this, asking Prime Minister Meloni to get involved to ask the Italian pharmaceutical company to make the appropriate, complete application here in order that the HSE could respond. I was on my summer holidays in August of last year waiting to see every day with the HSE whether the application had been made. Eventually, on 6 August, the HTA application was first made. I thank Michael Barry and the people in the HSE for the speed with which they processed that part of the application, which was exceptionally quick. The National Centre for Pharmacoeconomics did a rapid review. The application was made on 6 August, the rapid review was completed on 14 August and a full HTA commissioned on 26 August. That is unprecedentedly fast, and I am very grateful to the HSE for its speed, reflecting the seriousness of this.  On 30 September the HSE met with Italco Pharma to assess the HTA process. The assessment of the pricing and reimbursement application could not proceed until the full HTA was received from the Italian company.  That was eventually received on 15 January 2026. We were updating the families at every stage, discussing and giving them full information and transparency as to what was happening. I am grateful to the HSE for concluding the assessment on 3 March, which was a matter of 26 days or so. That was very fast. The HSE's corporate pharmaceutical element, which is the interface between the HSE and the pharmaceutical industry, held a meeting with Italfarmaco on 27 March 2026. A commercial offer was received from Italfarmaco on 8 May 2026. Again, we were waiting for these applications to be made.  The HSE drugs group continued that application at a meeting one month later on 9 June. When we bring together all of the different experts, it is not something that is stood up quickly. We have to review the documentation and have the scientific experts there. The drugs group supported the reimbursement of givinostat. Yesterday, the senior leadership team in the HSE supported that application and the drug will now proceed through a managed access protocol.  We have discussed in detail with the families how a managed access protocol works. It is a matter of clinical decision making as to who gets the drug. Of course, as the Deputy has referenced, not every boy is suitable for it. The question of being ambulatory, being able to stand and all of those things are not decisions for the Deputy and I but are decisions for clinicians. We want to make that drug as broadly available as possible but, ultimately, it is a clinical decision as to who should get the drug and who should not. I am so thankful to the HSE and thankful to the families for their constant engagement with me in relation to this, not just in our constituency, but around the country. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Ward.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Barry-Ward.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Ward  I thank the Minister. I join with her in thanking the HSE for the work that has been done and also acknowledge her commitment to this. Anybody who has dealt with families who are suffering with this disease understands both the heartbreaking nature of it and the urgency involved.  Listening to what the Minister has said in relation to the progress and the managed access protocol, do we have a timeline for when it will be available? I accept entirely what the Minister has said about the clinical criteria for the application of the drug. That is entirely appropriate and, unfortunately, there will be boys, because of the delay in the application outside our control, who may not be eligible to receive the drug now.  For those who are still eligible and those who can still stand up independently or who can stand up, can we give them a timeline for when they might be assessed for that and the conditions under which it will be made available to them? I am conscious of the fact that muscle is time and the fact that this drug is the very best way available to sufferers of Duchenne muscular dystrophy to stop the progress of this disease and to stop the degeneration of their muscles, which is irreversible. For the families the Minister has been dealing with and I have been dealing with, can we give them a particular timeline for when they can hope to be clinically assessed, if that still has to happen, but more importantly to have access to this drug in the same way it is available, for example, to our cousins in the North of Ireland under the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence, NICE, protocols? Will the drug be available under the same conditions as it is available in the UK under the NHS? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill  It was \u00dana Ennis who coined the phrase \"time is muscle\". I am grateful to her for her engagement and advocacy all the way through. The first thing is that we are trying to get the drug physically into the country. My officials have been working on that for some time in anticipation of what we hoped would be a positive response. Of course, it is not just a decision whether to give the drug or not. It is also a decision about whether the drug is effective and for whom it is effective. It is a complicated balance and we must always defer to the scientists on these decisions as well, recognising that Ireland remains a country that believes in science.  We are trying to get the drug physically into the country. This is a high-tech drug and not one that is put on the back of a van and sent to a pharmacy. Due to the way in which it is given, we are trying to work out whether this is something we can do more quickly in acute settings and how we can most quickly get this drug to the boys who need it so badly. Our broad approach is one of trying to give maximum access to it but I will defer to clinicians on who the appropriate people are to get it.  Yesterday, I was meeting with the European health ministers. We had a working lunch specifically on medicines and the challenge of most favoured nation, MFN, access to medicines. We have been trying to work in different ways on two things. As a small country Ireland, like the Benelux countries, Croatia and other small countries, have a difficulty with access to drugs. If we look at drug companies making applications, they are making it to the likes of France, Germany and other huge markets. We are just not in the same space. We do not have the same visibility. We are trying to partner with other countries to create a bigger market so we can be more attractive and also so we can negotiate on more attractive terms.  I feel that the only group with all of the information are the drug companies and that the member states are working somewhat against each other in terms of each of them making individual negotiations because of the way the European treaty is structured and health being a national competence. It is something we need to reflect on. I am working with other European health ministers to find a way to streamline the way the HTA process works, reduce some of the national country administrative burden, make Europe a more powerful block, and rebalance that balance of power, crucially so that patients get access and so the Irish State can spend as much money as possible in getting as many drugs as possible for the broadest range of people. That will not always result in positive decisions by the HSE. I need to say that loudly. We have had difficult days on that, too, but we are desperately trying to take the right approach in every way. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Medicinal Products"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_5","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Special Educational Needs","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_5","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aindrias Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  I thank the Minister for taking this. When we talk about finding an appropriate place for children, particularly those with special needs and challenging needs, it is a constant battle for those parents. It is a constant battle even at times for elected representatives who are contacted in relation to this, whether it is contacting the special educational needs organiser, SENO, contacting schools individually or even in instances when we have to bring it to the floor of Leinster House.  Obviously, I have made the Minister of State aware of some of these cases and if we are lucky enough to meet afterwards and deal with this, unfortunately, there will be more names I have to add to that list. I will use these as examples. Again, we are not only talking about children going from primary into secondary school where the roadmap should be a lot clearer and straightforward on the basis that they are not coming from Mars. They are already in the system.  We also suffer from the circumstance where a child is probably put in an inappropriate place and that may fall apart, and then they are left with no school place whatsoever. We are talking about cases where the educational welfare officer, EWO, is checking why the child is not at school and realises there is an issue. There is then no pressure on the parent from the point of view that the child is not at school, yet there is no solution. That is not taking away from the work done by SENOs and EWOs, but we need a far better system to actually deliver.  I am going to use a couple of examples. One is an eight-year-old named Hollybelle from Dundalk who has Down syndrome and an autism diagnosis. At this point in time, she has mobility issues and is non-verbal, so I am not taking away from the complexity of the case. She was given a special class within a school. That fell apart and now, months on, she does not have a place. Unfortunately, there has been a huge number of representations made by her mother over and back, particularly with the National Council For Special Education, NCSE, which I have contacted also. However, we are not in a place that we have a solution.  Another example is Tristan, who is a 12-year-old from Dundalk. The recommendation is for a special school or special class catering to autism spectrum disorder, ASD. I could talk about the multiple representations this mother has made to special schools and to schools with units and, in fairness, others and I have been in contact with all the services and there have been parliamentary questions placed. In some cases, it is schools that have not necessarily had their requisite ASD places or classes commissioned. Nonetheless, the Minister of State can imagine the pressure that these parents are under.  I am dealing with a young boy of 12 years old from Dundalk who is on the autism spectrum and there is no place whatsoever. His father has been in and out of my office and is under severe pressure.  There is another man with an 11-year-old boy. The school place he had previously then fell apart and at this point in time the child has been languishing at home.  There are sometimes issues that need to be dealt with around transport and whatever. I accept that----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aindrias Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Aindrias Moynihan)  I thank the Deputy. He will have a further two minutes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Education and Youth (Deputy Michael Moynihan)  I thank Deputy \u00d3 Murch\u00fa for raising this question regarding County Louth. I will first give him an overview of where we are and then address the specifics, if that is okay.  We are extremely committed to the provision of additional places for children with exceptional educational needs. The number of special classes provided across the country has doubled over the last few years. In addition, 16 new special schools have been established in recent years. School capacity has also been expanded across a number of schools nationwide. Four of these special schools are in County Louth, educating approximately 450 students with complex educational needs. These schools are supported by the Department of education and the National Council for Special Education, NCSE.  As the Deputy will be aware, an earlier notification deadline was introduced last year to support forward planning. This also meant that the NCSE was equipped earlier with local information as to what students would be leaving school, transitioning to post-primary specialised places or seeking specialised places and entering the education system for the first time. This information is crucial when examining where places must be provided to meet demand.  The National Council for Special Education started sanctioning special classes for the 2026-27 school year in January, several months earlier than the previous year. To date, 565 new special classes have been sanctioned by the NCSE for the 2026-27 school year. By way of information, between September 2025 and September 2026, close to 1,000 extra special classes will have been sanctioned and opened across the country. The vast majority of these new special classes are for children with autism. The new special class sanctions mean there will be over 4,300 special classes operating in mainstream schools across the country in the next school year, up from 1,836 in 2020. The earlier notification has given us insight into the need. The Department has worked extremely well with the NCSE and with school communities across the country to open extra classes at both primary and post-primary levels.  On the issues the Deputy has raised regarding education, we have those who are entering primary school for the first time and those who are transitioning from primary to post-primary school. These are the pinch points or challenges we face. We are acutely aware of the breakdown of places. We are working extremely well with the new teams within the NCSE across all counties to make sure we are meeting the needs of children with additional educational requirements.  The Deputy mentioned a number of children. While it would not be appropriate for me to discuss these cases on the floor of the D\u00e1il, the Deputy shared the details with me yesterday evening and I will certainly take these matters up and respond to him offline. I fully understand. One of my motivations in my role is that, a few short years ago, I met a parent at a school gate whose child was finishing primary school in June of that particular school year. This parent did not know where that child would go to post-primary school that September. That has really guided me in making sure we have appropriate places. On being appointed, I looked at moving the date to earlier in the year so that we would have earlier sight of educational requirements. We are working to ensure that again next year. It is proper to engage in forward planning to make sure we have sight of the need. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  We all welcome the attempts to streamline the system. The problem is that too many children are still falling between stools. I am not taking away from the particular issues but I spoke about Hollybelle. One of the schools she applied to was a special school that she did not qualify for. Her intellectual disability was seen as too severe. As much as we have an insufficient number of places for those who have autism - I accept that there have been increases, which is necessary - there are also a number of children who fall into the bracket of intellectual disability who have no place to go. We really need to look at this across the board and come up with a comprehensive solution. The Minister of State can imagine the absolute disaster this is for families and the pressure they are under. I spoke to Tristan's mother. I believe she will be here later to protest because she is at the end of her tether and does not know where to go.  I welcome the fact that we will continue this conversation offline. I did not expect to hear the solutions in here today. However, we need to get them.  On a point of information, when we talk about situations breaking down, a mother wrote to me about her son Matthew, who is going to secondary school in September. She could not get him a place in an ASD class, so he has to go into a mainstream class. The problem is that the SNA co-ordinator has told her that they cannot promise him SNA access as there are only six SNAs available between first year and sixth year. She has detailed Matthew's issues to me. We are going to have cases like that across the board. We need to find a way to deliver. I will follow up with the Minister of State afterwards. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Moynihan  There are a number of issues to discuss. The Deputy mentioned a case. I do not want to go into the specifics on the floor of the D\u00e1il but that is one of the pieces we are concerned about. We are concerned about meeting profound levels of need within an appropriate school. We are doing a number of things. We have sight of the need earlier in the school year. We will continue with that programme over the next while. We are also gathering information from other Departments, including information from the access and inclusion model and the domiciliary care section, to make sure that we have full sight of this need, particularly at primary level. In addition, during the school year, school placements may not work out for a whole variety of reasons. We really need to work on that. While primary schools right across the country have done a huge amount of work with regard to additional special classes and working through the system, we have more work to do with regard to post-primary schools. Students will be going from primary school to post-primary school. We will be looking very carefully at that issue over the next while. We are also looking at where placements break down and the supports we can provide through the NCSE, the SENOs and team leaders right across the country.  The Deputy asked about County Louth. We are investing in special schools and special classes right across County Louth. Of course, we are supporting students in mainstream education as well. I assure the Deputy of that. It is extremely important. I know and understand the pressures families are under, particularly as we are now galloping towards the end of the school year with a new one on the horizon. Families need certainty on that. I will follow up on the queries the Deputy has shared with me and report back to him. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Special Educational Needs"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_6","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Special Educational Needs","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_6","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darren O'Rourke  The level of support provided by the summer programme and its recognised benefits are very clear. It is recognised by school communities, parents and children themselves. There is increasing demand for the programme and, in recent years, an increased number of places have been provided. However, very real problems have been identified this year. Something different is happening in the administration of the scheme this year. In some cases, this means that children who were intended to benefit from the programme now will not.  I have my suspicions about what is going on here. We all hear about the budgetary challenges in the Department. I believe they are at play here.  We raised the issue of the very narrow application window, which the Department revisited, and that was welcome. I am hearing this from school communities and parents across the length the breadth of Ireland. A thread running through all of the complaints is that an entirely different approach is being taken now by the Department regarding SNA allocation.  I have specific examples. In County Offaly, a school does tremendous work in special education and has an above-circular allocation in recognition of the complex needs in the school. It has nine SNAs but has been told it will have six for the summer programme. In Trim, a school with a tremendous track record in special education has 18 SNAs but has been told it has 12 for the summer programme. This means that children with additional and complex needs will be locked out of the scheme. There is another case in a DEIS school in County Cavan. It wants to roll out a literacy and numeracy camp but will have to exclude children with additional needs because of the lack of SNA allocation. This is one very important issue that I want addressed by the Minister of State.  The other is the home-based programme. There is an absolute delay in sanctioning this to the extent that children, particularly secondary school children but also some in primary, might not get the opportunity at all. We know that in previous years the sanction happened way earlier. We are now running towards the end of June, and this has not been sanctioned. Schools that applied earlier in the year were told that it would be late May or early June before they would get the sanction letters but they are now told it will be the end of June. In some cases, tutors, teachers and SNAs are only available in the month of June. Their own children are at primary school and they are working in secondary schools, so they have the flexibility in the month of June that they do not have in July and August. These children are going to miss out on the summer programme as a result of these delays. What is going on? Can the Minister of State urgently address those deficiencies? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Moynihan  I thank the Deputy for the question. Like the Deputy, we recognise the importance of the summer programme as a vital piece in the education system. It is vital for children at primary and post-primary school. It is specifically designed for children with complex educational needs or those at risk of educational disadvantage. While it is delivered during the summer months, it is an educational programme and it is important that it is viewed as educational rather than as recreation in summer camps.  Since 2021, the Department of Education and Youth\u2019s inspectorate has evaluated the programme annually. The findings consistently highlight the programme\u2019s positive impact on the many children and young people who have taken part, with parents, staff and the children themselves reporting improvements in confidence, attitude and readiness to return to school in September. The original intention and continued emphasis of the summer programme is to mitigate the impact of learning loss on those children while schools are closed. An increase in special educational needs prevalence rates, particularly of autism, and the presentation of children with more complex needs, has meant that the summer programme is more important than ever.  Details of the summer programme were communicated to schools and stakeholders in early May. While it is acknowledged that the details of the programme are typically announced earlier, the Department has continually kept in touch with stakeholders who are querying when the summer programme might be announced. This ensured that schools understood it would be forthcoming and that they should start their preparations. As a result, the online application portals for both the school-based and the home-based programmes were opened from 6 May to 15 May. Both the Minister, Deputy Naughton, and I were aware of the deadline, and the application portals were reopened again from 2 to 5 June. Details of this reopening were announced in May.  The summer programme has been well established for several years, so even though there was a shorter window for applications, schools were prepared in advance. The Department subsequently received more applications for the school-based scheme this year than in 2025, with increases across primary, post-primary and special schools. In addition, the number of home-based applications has significantly increased on last year. The Department has been engaging with schools on an individual basis in relation to the running of their summer programme. Schools have now received their sanction letters with their staffing allocation. This allocation is based on the number of children who are taking part in accordance with the published terms and conditions of the programme.  In instances where schools believe they require additional supports, they can engage, and many are engaging, with the Department to outline the unique circumstances that require additional resources. I know the Department has been working with schools on an individual basis to ensure they can meet the needs of all the children taking part. Equally, it is acknowledged that there are some children with complex special educational needs whose school is not running a school-based programme or that a place on the school-based programme is not available. In this instance, these children can avail of the home-based provision.  The Department is working hard to ensure it is communicating with families as a matter of urgency. As the Deputy rightly pointed out, we are in the second half of June, and we need to get certainty to all communities. Many schools have been liaising with us in the past week or ten days in particular, and the Department has been engaging with them. Where a need is demonstrated, additional staffing is being made available. This will continue to work until the summer programme is up and running. We are very serious about making sure that the summer programme works this year and into the future. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darren O'Rourke  I would be interested to know the numbers. I recognise they have been increasing year on year. My understanding from replies to parliamentary question that I have received from the Department is that the budget has increased but it has not increased in the past two years and has been static. I know there were 1,800 schools and 71,000 children last year. How many schools and children are there this year? Will the Minister of State indicate whether more schools will participate this year and whether more children will be accommodated?  I know many schools are engaging in the appeals process. I implore the Minister of State to ensure timely responses. I am dealing with a number of schools that have appealed. They engaged in good faith and outlined their particular circumstances but it is more than ten working days later and they have had no response from the Department. That has to change.  When will the sanction letters for the home-based programme be issued to give people a clear indication that they can go about making arrangements? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Moynihan  There has been an increase in the number of schools. More applications were received for school-based programmes this year than in 2025, with an increase across the primary, post-primary and special schools. In addition, there has been an increase in home-based applications, which significantly increased last year. We are working across the system to ensure we are delivering decisions and appeals. Further information has been sent in by school authorities to the Department in recent days, and that is being worked on in a timely manner. Certainty is being issued to schools, and we understand the need for that.  There has been an increase. This shows the value that the families and school communities put on the summer programme. I am pleased to see that more primary, post-primary and special schools are engaging in the programme. That is what we want. We want to make sure the programme is open to all. In the past few years, there has been an increase of 210% in child participation. That is welcome. It is what it is all about. It is to ensure that children who require further education, those with additional educational needs and children from disadvantaged backgrounds have the opportunity of the summer programme.  This programme was devised many years ago and it has been successful and has been running across the schools. We understand the value of it. The engagement between the Department and the school authorities is ongoing. A lot of documentation was issued over the last day or so in terms of staffing and that will continue. On the home-based tuition, or the home-based programme, we are working to bring clarity to families because I know families need certainty at this point in the year. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Special Educational Needs"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_7","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"School Accommodation","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_7","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-O'Donoghue.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Robert-O'Donoghue.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-O'Donoghue.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Robert-O'Donoghue.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Robert O'Donoghue  I want to highlight a deeply concerning situation facing Balscadden National School in my constituency in Dublin Fingal West. The school is simply asking for appropriate educational provision for children with additional needs. It has been informed by the Department that it will only provide a single special educational needs, SEN, classroom through a modular build. This decision appears to be based on the assertion that a two-classroom unit would require planning permission and would delay the project. However, the information available to the school raises serious questions about this justification. A report has suggested that a septic tank would need to be relocated to accommodate the two-classroom unit. The school disputes this and believes that the tank does not need to be moved. Furthermore, if planning permission is required, the additional timeframe is estimated at about 12 weeks. When we consider that the most optimistic opening date would be spring 2027, and that September 2027 would be a more realistic target in either scenario, it is difficult to understand why a long-term educational need is being sacrificed for a relatively short administrative delay. The reality is that the single SEN classroom would be filled immediately. Once it reaches capacity there would be no further places available until pupils reach sixth class. So what happens to the children who are coming in for 2028, 2029 and beyond? Are the families expected to wait years for appropriate provision? Are children expected to travel long distances because sufficient capacity was not provided from the outset?  There are also significant concerns about the quality of provision being proposed. A singular modular unit comes with fewer facilities for children who will use it. In addition, the Department proposes providing only 50 sq. m of soft play space. The school believes this is wholly inadequate to facilitate meaningful reverse integration and inclusive educational opportunities. The Education Act makes clear that every child is entitled to the most inclusive education possible. Inclusion cannot simply be spoken about; it must be properly resourced and designed into our schools. A restricted space of 50 sq. m does not allow the level of interaction and integration that children deserve.  Finally, the school community has been informed that its playground will be disrupted and effectively removed during construction. It is entirely reasonable that playground damage or loss as part of this project should be fully reinstated when the works are complete. I call on the Minister of State and the Department to urgently review this proposal, engage constructively with the school, provide a two-classroom SEN unit that meets future demand, ensure adequate outdoor space for inclusive education and guarantee the full replacement of the playground following construction. Our children deserve planning that looks beyond next year and provides for the future needs of Balscadden National School. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Moynihan  I thank the Deputy. I appreciate the question and thank him for his ongoing engagement on matters of education, not just in the House but also his own engagement in it. It is important that we do so.  I want to go to the school the Deputy raised. I assure the Deputy that the Government is fully committed to supporting students with special educational needs to fulfil their full potential. The programme for Government makes a number of commitments to deliver on this important objective.  I can assure the Deputy that the Department has been working closely with the school authorities in relation to the school's accommodation requirement and will continue to do so. The Department of education appointed a project manager who visited the school to examine the feasibility of providing two special educational needs modular classrooms at the school's preferred location on the school site. The Department was advised that due to a site-specific technical constraint only one unit could be accommodated at the school's preferred location. However, I commend the school's strong preference for proceeding with two special educational needs classrooms, and the project manager is now undertaking a revised viability assessment report, including examining the possibility of relocating the modular accommodation to an alternative location on the school site. The Department of education will endeavour to assist in facilitating this option. Once the process has been completed, officials from the Department of education will be in contact with the school authorities.  The Deputy will appreciate that the Department is required to utilise the funding available to it to ensure that every child has access to a school place, and indeed there is a large demand for school places and class provision in the Balbriggan school planning area. I assure the Deputy that the Department is fully committed to the optimum special education needs accommodation solution at the school and will continue to engage with the school in this regard.  It is important to note the project manager has been appointed and has gone out there. I could not but strongly commend the school authorities for wanting to go ahead with the two special classes. That is not universal but perhaps the Deputy might convey to the school authorities that we do appreciate that they are looking to the future as well. One of the things we have to bear in mind as a Department and a Government is the large demand for special education class provision in the Balbriggan school planning area. That is one thing we have to be very cognisant of as we move forward. I will give a commitment that we will work very closely with the school authorities to ensure we find the best possible solution there and to ensure engagement with the school authorities on it.  By way of information, the Deputy will be aware that the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, is the statutory body for the provision of special education and allocating supports for children with additional needs. The Department is guided by the NCSE in relation to requirements for special classes in the first instance. In order to respond to the urgent need for special educational needs class provision identified by the National Council for Special Education, my Department is progressing urgent building projects that involve providing modular accommodation for SEN class provision. This delivery method and modern methods of construction offer an extremely high-quality carbon-friendly building combined with fast delivery. In overall terms, it is important to have a range of delivery mechanisms for delivering school accommodation to support the very strong and ambitious roll-out of school building projects across the country.  I assure the Deputy that the Department will be working very closely with the project manager and the school authorities in order to progress the delivery of special education class accommodation as quickly as possible. My officials will engage directly with the school again on the next steps for delivery of this accommodation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-O'Donoghue.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Robert-O'Donoghue.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Robert O'Donoghue  I thank the Minister of State. I will convey this to the school principal, Mr. White. While seeking the two SEN classrooms is probably not as common as it should be, it is good to hear that the Department is working closely with the school. I feel that myself and my Dublin Fingal West colleagues are like a broken record at this point. It is the fastest-growing local authority area in Ireland. I am glad to see that facilities like this are being taken seriously, as is coming forward from the Department. From my own point of view, I am asking the Minister of State to continue that engagement with the principal, Mr. White, and the school community on this issue. It will certainly be used in the coming years and without a doubt it will future-proof one area of the north county. The school community is willing to provide the Minister of State with any solutions or any further input he might need that will work to find what we perceive as a better solution than that originally put forward. Engaging with them can bring a better conclusion. That is the outcome we are all looking for. I thank the Minister of State. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Moynihan  In all school projects when the Department engages, the Department is one side of it, the planning and building unit is one side of it, and there is the National Council for Special Education, which has sight of the numbers that are notified on a yearly basis. The most important ingredient as well is the school authorities and we have to bring them with us.  The school authorities have the best interests of their communities at heart and they want to see what is the best option for them. In this instance, they are very clear in demonstrating that a quick fix in relation to one classroom will not meet the needs into the future. Where population growth is anticipated right across the country, we have to be very mindful that we have to future proof, so that we are not trying to catch up year after year and make provision for specialised education. There must be reflection on the points that have been made and the really serious engagement the school authorities have had with the Department on pushing the two classes in the overall decision that we are making. I assure the Deputy that the Department will continue to work with the school authorities and bear in mind the challenges that will arise not just in 2026 but into the future in the greater Balbriggan area as well. We will work closely and we will report back the Deputy. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"School Accommodation"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_8","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Industrial Development","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Cooney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Cooney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Cooney.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Cooney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Cooney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Cooney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Cooney  Ireland is at a crossroads. Dublin is bursting at the seams, housing is scarce, costs are out of control, infrastructure cannot cope and commuters spend hours of their lives on packed roads every day but two hours west of this Chamber, we have an asset of great national potential, Shannon and the wider region. Developing Shannon as Ireland's second economic engine is not just good for County Clare, it is essential policy for Ireland. With excellent road and rail connections and port access at Foynes, Shannon has the freight and logistics capacity that any foreign direct investment team would find compelling. Shannon Airport is the only airport outside Dublin that can handle long-haul flights. It is critical national infrastructure that needs to be used more. The Shannon Airport Business Park is the largest outside Dublin with hundreds of companies employing thousands of people across a range of businesses. It has 130 acres of land available for new development, doubling the park's current capacity and driving the economy of the entire region.  What Shannon offers that Dublin cannot is space, which is vital. Physical space for companies, space in the housing market for workers who can afford homes within reach of their workplaces, and space in the planning system to move with ambition and speed. There are 9,000 students graduating every year from the University of Limerick, UL, and the Technological University of the Shannon, TUS. Shannon itself is home to the Shannon College of Hotel Management.  Pharma, medtech, ICT, financial services, aviation, agrifood, and green energy sectors all have a natural home in the Shannon region. The Roche site in Clarecastle is a prime example of the region's industrial capacity. It is a flagship location that is perfectly placed to attract the next generation of global life sciences and clean-tech investment directly into County Clare. With Ireland's offshore wind potential off the Atlantic coast, Shannon is ideally placed to be the industrial hub for new energy-intensive and net-zero industries. The national planning framework commits to regional balance in principle. Successive Governments have promised balanced regional development but promising it and actively delivering it are two very different things. What steps is the Minister taking to back up those promises? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Enterprise, Tourism and Employment (Deputy Peter Burke)  I thank Deputy Cooney for raising this very important Topical Issue on the mid-west region, Shannon Airport and County Clare. The mid-west region is uniquely positioned to drive balanced regional development, with assets including Shannon Airport, Foynes Port, excellent road and rail connectivity and a highly skilled workforce. There are strong links to leading education institutions. The region has all the fundamentals required to support sustained industrial growth and job creation. Government policy is fully aligned with unlocking this potential. Through the White Paper on Enterprise 2022-2030 and our regional development agenda, we are focused on ensuring every region, including the mid-west region, can realise its full economic and employment potential.  My Department contributes to this agenda through the work of IDA lreland, Enterprise Ireland, the local enterprise offices, LEOs, and nine regional enterprise plans, REPs. The regional enterprise plans have proven effective in fostering regional collaboration, bringing together key stakeholders to identify challenges and opportunities and to take action in areas such as cluster development, manufacturing and knowledge economy.  Since 2017 my Department, through Enterprise Ireland, has made available over \u20ac150 million in regional enterprise development funding. Looking ahead, Enterprise 2035, as set out in the programme for Government, will build on this progress. It will support long-term enterprise growth and job creation, focusing on key enablers such as skills, infrastructure, digital connectivity, access to finance and sustainability.  The LEOs play a vital role at grassroots level, supporting job creation in small businesses across the region, providing targeted grants for scaling and exporting firms, including support for specialist hires, and driving digital, green and lean transformation across sectors. Enterprise Ireland also supports over 700 client companies across the mid-west region, with employment growing in 2025 to almost 27,000. This growth is driven by strong performance in key sectors like medtech and healthcare, as referenced by Deputy Cooney. We are seeing this in major announcements, including Aerogen, lreland's largest indigenous medtech company, announcing this year the creation of 725 jobs between its two manufacturing sites in Shannon and Galway and Vitalograph's expansion in Clare and Limerick which will see it take on an extra 200 employees.  In May 2025, Enterprise Ireland announced the high potential start-up, HPSU, class of 2024 in which \u20ac27.6 million was invested in Irish start-ups, supporting over 157 start-ups in 2024 through HPSU or pre-seed funding, of which six were in the mid-west. The region is already delivering strong results. There are 158 IDA client companies in the mid-west region employing 28,125 people, with employment among IDA clients increasing by 18% in recent years. Key sectors include technology, life sciences, international financial services and engineering.  The strategic location, excellent connectivity through Shannon Airport, and a skilled workforce supported by the UL and TUS make the mid-west region an attractive environment for multinational corporations. Some of the major FDI companies have expanded their operations here, citing access to talent, quality infrastructure, and Government support through IDA Ireland as key factors. Adjoining Shannon International Airport, Shannon Free Zone remains a cornerstone of international investment, hosting one of the largest clusters of North American investment in the State, with continued growth in traded services and technology investment also accelerating. Looking ahead, continued investment, infrastructure and collaboration will ensure the Shannon region can fully capitalise on its key advantages. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Cooney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Cooney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Cooney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Cooney  I thank the Minister for his update and his commitment to Shannon and the wider mid-west region, which is very much appreciated. The overdevelopment of Dublin is not a Dublin problem, it is a national failure of planning and political will. Shannon and the wider region are not asking for charity. They are asking for the investment and commitment to do what they have always been able to do: contribute in a meaningful way to Ireland's economic future. Let us stop managing congestion in Dublin and start building prosperity in the west, which is important. Let us recognise the strategic importance of Shannon and the wider region by investing in our airport, in the roads and in the public transport network and in public services that will ensure its future growth. The Shannon Chamber, which I have worked with on raising this issue, the Shannon Airport Group, Clare County Council and the wider business community in the region are willing to support the Government in delivering on its commitment to balanced regional development. We need the political will to match. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Peter Burke  I again thank Deputy Cooney. I had a great visit with him to County Clare and Shannon focusing on some of the key businesses that are there.  We visited the Roche site, where there is huge potential, and we saw the works that are being carried out to remediate that site. We also visited Beckman Coulter, another exciting life sciences company, and we will see significant investment from other companies in the region, like Jaguar Land Rover, which is really working to invest significantly, and also PPG and Zimmer Biomet. There is huge opportunity. Working with Deputy Cooney and the key support he has provided to me and the Government, we hope we will have a very significant announcement during the summer by a leading Irish-born company in relation to Shannon. This will be a strong testament to the work of the Government in providing the key infrastructure but also in ensuring that we have a highly skilled workforce, and that we are getting key training opportunities into our workforce to meet the challenges of artificial intelligence, getting our skills observatory up and running, and ensuring that the high-performance in Enterprise Ireland that looks after our homegrown entities is excelling. We see right now that of the 196 high-performance graduates, half of them are grounded in AI. That is where we need to be as a country to take those key opportunities.  I assure Deputy Cooney of my purpose and delivery and we will work very hard together to ensure we are delivering for the west and Shannon as a key economic hub and a driver for the mid-west and our country, as the Deputy has pointed out. I know it has been very successful at getting additional funding under the regional airports fund and it will be important to keep up that commitment from Government. I assure the Deputy of my support and I look forward to the announcement later in the summer. Last year, on a trade mission, as the first time ever for an Irish Minister, I visited the top Irish-born companies in Ireland over two days and sought what their issues and challenges were. Right now in this country, the top ten Irish-born companies employ 450,000 people globally, which is a very strong testament to Irish-born companies and the indigenous economy. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Industrial Development"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_9","debateType":"motion","bill":null,"showAs":"Data Centres, Energy Use and Climate Change: Motion [Private Members]","counts":{"speechCount":43,"speakerCount":36},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_9","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ciar\u00e1n Ahern","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-O'Donoghue.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Robert-O'Donoghue.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Duncan Smith","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Duncan-Smith.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Duncan-Smith.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aindrias Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Ardagh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louis O'Hara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"R\u00e9ada Cronin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Kenny.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Martin-Kenny.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fionnt\u00e1n \u00d3 S\u00failleabh\u00e1in","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fionnt\u00e1n-\u00d3-S\u00failleabh\u00e1in.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Fionnt\u00e1n-\u00d3-S\u00failleabh\u00e1in.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Natasha Newsome Drennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Johnny Mythen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Johnny-Mythen.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Johnny-Mythen.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Nicholas Gogarty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mattie McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marie Sherlock","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ciar\u00e1n Ahern","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ciar\u00e1n Ahern  I move:  That D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann:  notes that:  \u2014 climate change resulted in Irish temperatures in excess of 30\u00b0C in May, breaking a 29-year-old record by more than two degrees;  \u2014 a United Nations report has described Ireland as a cautionary tale on the environmental impact of data centres;  \u2014 the Government is implementing policies that will increase fossil fuel use, by facilitating further new data centres through the Commission for Regulation of Utilities (CRU) Large Energy User (LEU) connection policy, the introduction of private wires legislation, and the construction of a floating terminal for the importation and storage of liquid natural gas, including fracked gas;  \u2014 over 22 per cent of our electricity is already used by data centres, this will rise to over 30 per cent by 2030, and to 55 per cent if growth continues as projected, using more power than every other electricity user in the country combined;  \u2014 in May, the Climate Change Advisory Council noted that all new renewable energy being developed in the State is being cannibalised by new demand created by data centres, rather than going towards decarbonising homes, transport or industry;  \u2014 research projects that the 5.8 gigawatt (GW) of additional data centre capacity under the LEU may result in a doubling of the State's peak demand for electricity generation, and lead to an increase in gas consumption by 2030 against the current projected decline, should capacity be constructed ahead of new renewables capacity; and  \u2014 no offshore wind power generation capacity will be available before 2030 despite a 5 GW target;  further notes that:  \u2014 Ireland has the highest electricity prices in the European Union, and over 500,000 households are in arrears on their energy bills;  \u2014 the increased and inflexible energy demands of data centres means that more and more often gas generation sets the wholesale price of electricity, rather than renewables, resulting in higher prices for households, while Eurostat shows that large energy users pay lower network charges;  \u2014 research by Friends of the Earth Ireland, shows that Irish households paid an estimated \u20ac715 million more in electricity bills from 2015 to 2023 due to data centres, equivalent to \u20ac360 per household, and face an additional \u20ac1.43 billion in costs up to 2034, costing each household up to \u20ac644 more; and  \u2014 the Economic and Social Research Institute has shown that recent energy price increases hit low-income households harder, and that more targeted support measures are needed;  regrets that:  \u2014 the Climate Action Plan 2026 still has not been published;  \u2014 the final, phase 2 oversight group report of the Land Use Review, was submitted over a year ago and has still not been published; and  \u2014 planned legislation to prioritise critical infrastructure will bypass statutory climate obligations;  recognises that:  \u2014 data centres are essential infrastructure for the modern digital economy and the development of artificial intelligence technology but are overly concentrated in Ireland, are using an ever-increasing amount of energy, resulting in higher costs for households and businesses, and increased development is now at odds with our climate targets;  \u2014 discussion by Government of nuclear power is a nonsense and a form of climate obstructionism which distracts and blocks real climate action; and  \u2014 the Government will further increase carbon emissions by lifting the Dublin Airport cap, promoting unsustainable housing and economic development, and by no longer prioritising public transport and active travel investment over roads construction;  condemns the decision of the Government to use the Critical Infrastructure Bill 2026, to disapply Section 15 of the Climate Action and Low Carbon Development Acts 2015 to 2021 from designated projects; and  calls on the Government to:  \u2014 publish the Climate Action Plan 2026, and the final phase 2 oversight group report of the Land Use Review without any further delay;  \u2014 delete Section 7 of the Critical Infrastructure Bill 2026, and publish the legal advice confirming the constitutionality of the provision to disapply Section 15 of the Climate Action and Low Carbon Development Acts 2015 to 2021;  \u2014 suspend the CRU LEU connection policy, and commission an independent study of the impact of data centres on electricity prices, carbon emissions, water usage and grid stability;  \u2014 introduce a moratorium on the further construction of data centres until renewable energy from offshore wind comes online, and households and businesses can benefit from lower energy costs;  \u2014 introduce a levy on the energy usage of data centres, to recover the higher electricity costs now being imposed on Irish households and businesses;  \u2014 confirm by how much Ireland will miss our binding 2030 emission targets, what the cost of securing additional carbon credits will be, and how the next Government will pay for those; and  \u2014 immediately reintroduce targeted energy credits and more targeted Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland supports for households in advance of Budget 2027.  We are bringing forward this motion today out of a genuinely held concern that this Government is giving up even the pretence of caring about our climate ambitions. Earlier this year, we had what felt like three months of non-stop rain, leading to severe flooding in parts of the country, including my constituency of Dublin South-West. Just a few weeks ago, Ireland recorded record temperatures above 30\u00b0C in May for the first time in almost three decades, shattering a record that had stood for 29 years by more than 2\u00b0C.  Speaking of breaking records, I increasingly feel like a broken record when I bring up our climate crisis in this House. In Ireland and globally, we are seeing much more frequent and severe weather events, from droughts to floods to extreme heat. We have moved beyond the point of warning about the potential consequences of climate change. It is here. These consequences are already being felt. Urgency is required to prevent the most catastrophic outcomes - urgency in bringing down our emissions, in our energy transition and in addressing the costs of this perpetual fossil fuel crisis.  However, this Government is failing to acknowledge that there is any urgency. It still has not yet published a climate action plan for this year. It is June. It has failed to publish the land use review, which has been sitting on the Minister's desk for over a year now. The Minister, who is not here, is trying to make a virtue of admitting that we are going to fail miserably in reaching our 2030 carbon reduction targets. What is another few years? This Minister will be long gone from the climate brief by the time any of this matters.  Not only is this Government failing to act with any real urgency to decarbonise; it is also actively pursuing policies that are moving us in the opposite direction. This motion seeks to address some of this Government's failings when it comes to climate, starting with the most obvious example - the rapid expansion of data centres and the consequences their growth is having on our climate obligations and on household energy bills.  None of us here are Luddites. We accept and understand that data centres are part of a modern economy and industrial strategy. We all have a mobile phone; we all use cloud services. Many of us even use artificial intelligence, AI, though certainly not for parliamentary questions. This is not a question about whether data centres should or should not exist, and I hope the Government does not try to reduce the debate to those binary terms again. The debate has moved on. The question is whether we are content to continue to allow unlimited expansion of these data centres without regard for the very real consequences on people and our environment. This is a question of the Government's industrial and economic strategy as much as it is a question of our climate obligations and the cost-of-living implications of this strategy. The Government must be honest about the consequences and costs of allowing more and more of our energy to be used by data centres. It must be honest that much of the legislation it is pushing through is designed to facilitate and placate large energy users. I refer to the private wires Bill, the strategic liquefied natural gas, LNG, emergency reserve, which will import highly polluting fracked gas, and the Commission for Regulation of Utilities, CRU's, new large energy user policy. Who knows what kinds of fossil fuel-guzzling projects a future Minister might deem to be critical infrastructure if that particular Bill passes?  The UN has described Ireland as a cautionary tale regarding the environmental impact of data centres. I would hope that would be a wake-up call for the Government but I will not hold my breath. Perhaps the Friends of the Earth report published a couple of weeks ago will be more impactful. It concluded that \u20ac715 million had been added to household bills between 2015 and 2023 as a direct result of data centre energy demands pushing up prices. A further \u20ac1.5 billion could be the price households pay for data centres over the next decade. This is at a time when, according to the latest figures from the CRU, more than 500,000 households are in arrears and cannot afford to keep up with their energy bills. We already have the highest electricity prices in the EU and this is, in part, directly attributable to data centres.  As our motion says, the massive energy demand from data centres means that gas is setting the wholesale price rather than renewables, making everyone's electricity more expensive. This is only going to get worse if we continue to build more and more of them. Data centres currently consume 22% of the electricity in this State. This is projected to grow to 30% by 2030 and they could ultimately consume as much as 55% of all the electricity demand in Ireland. This is insane. That is more than every household, school, hospital, small business, farm and factory combined. An entire energy system is increasingly organised around the demands of a small number of large corporate users and their interests.  That is why we are calling for the introduction of a levy on data centre energy usage. It is about fairness. Not alone are data centres pushing up prices for everyone else but we have a ludicrous situation where they are actually paying less than your average punter in network tariffs. If data centres are contributing to higher costs across the electricity network, then it is reasonable that they should contribute more towards those costs. It is not about punishing data centre operators or deterring investment. It is simply about making sure that ordinary households are not left footing the bill, which is currently the case.  What is particularly alarming is that the Climate Change Advisory Council has warned that all new renewable energy is being cannibalised by the growth in demand from data centres rather than decarbonising out transport sector, agriculture, industry or home heating. The Government's response to all of this has basically been, \"Yeah, but jobs\". However, the recent KPMG report commissioned by the Government makes the absolutely laughable claim that 900,000 jobs are attributable to data centres. The actual number of jobs directly created by data centres is around 19,500, the vast majority of which are in construction and are temporary in nature. The actual figure is about 3,000 ongoing jobs. That is not to be sniffed at, but is it worth building an entire energy system around and dumping our climate targets for? I would say the jury is out on that one.  The Government will say it is encouraging more renewables because 80% of the energy for our new data centres must come from renewables, but even with that, the remaining 20% will lead to a potential doubling of our peak gas demand. This means more imported fossil fuels, more emissions, more exposure to international energy price shocks and, ultimately, higher bills for hard-pressed Irish households. That is why we are calling for a moratorium on further data centre expansion. We want a pause until we have sufficient renewable capacity so we can ensure they are not impacting on our decarbonisation efforts or pushing up prices for ordinary households.  An additional concern addressed in our motion is the Government's Critical Infrastructure Bill and the disapplication of section 15 of the climate Act. Of course we want to see Ireland's infrastructure deficit filled. We have had a decade of wasted prosperity under Fine Gael and Fianna F\u00e1il Governments and it is typical that they would now seek to point the finger for their failures to build our necessary infrastructure at anyone but themselves.  They are punching down on the environment. However, we need to be clear that seeking to uphold our environmental and biodiversity laws is not the cause of the delays in getting vital infrastructure built in a timely fashion in this country. It is resourcing issues. For years, our planning authorities, courts and public bodies have been under-resourced. That is the reason we are seeing decisions taking years and years, delaying delivery. That is not the fault of environmental law. It is a fault of Fine Gael's and Fianna F\u00e1il's lack of strategic planning. None of the 20 delays to the completion of the National Children's Hospital is due to the environment. Section 15 of the climate Act exists for a reason. It ensures that our public bodies act consistently with our climate objectives. Removing it suggests that those objectives apply only when it is convenient and can be set aside when it is politically inconvenient. I will continue on this later. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ivana Bacik  I commend my colleague and our climate spokesperson, Deputy Ahern, on proposing this motion, which I am delighted to second on behalf of the Labour Party. In my constituency of Dublin Bay South, we saw the largest mobilisation of young people in the first school strike for climate in 2019. My constituency is also home to a great many people working in the tech sector. However, it is also a constituency where many households are now struggling to make ends meet, in part due to the outrageously high cost of energy.  I make these points at the outset to illustrate the strong connection between the climate crisis, the cost-of-living crisis and the future of our economy and our workplaces. The connection here is so clear for the working families I represent. Every month, and the Minister of State will be aware of this, people open electricity bills they can scarcely afford. They watch prices rise, while they see people in other countries like Spain, which have invested heavily in renewables, availing of cheaper, cleaner energy. Ireland still has some of the highest electricity prices in Europe. More than 500,000 people are in arrears on their energy bills. Energy security is a buzz word for Government when it comes to justifying liquefied natural gas but less so when it comes to being honest with people about data centres.  As Deputy Ahern pointed out, data centres are now consuming more electricity than all urban households combined and that demand is set to grow. It seems the demands of multinational tech corporations have an outsized influence on national energy policy for this Government. I say none of this to diminish the importance of tech jobs. I know it well as local TD. However, there is a balance to be struck with the needs of working families and, indeed, other sectors and other businesses matter too. At present, what renewables we do bring on stream, the capacity is immediately being swallowed by the growing demand from data centres instead of reducing bills for households or improving our energy security. That is why in this motion, the Labour Party is calling for a levy on energy used by data centres and a moratorium on the introduction of new data centres until bills come down. We need to see offshore wind generation operating and capable of supporting that growth. We need that renewables revolution that we have seen driven by a socialist Government in Spain and that we have seen in other countries. We need to see a Government that is using evidence to drive energy policy, not just acquiescing to the calls of tech giants and fossil fuel lobbyists.  Before I finish, I want to emphasise that for Labour and for all of us, the debate should also be about jobs because the same artificial intelligence, AI, revolution driving demand for data centres is reshaping our labour market. Companies are selling AI and marketing its use as a way to flatten teams, which is a euphemism for cutting jobs. Young graduates are seeing diminished job prospects as early-stage AI lay-offs really cut deep. Generative AI is also having serious ethical implications due to the risk of mass theft of intellectual property. The Government is sleepwalking through an AI revolution. As a tech hub, we have an opportunity to lead on a just green transition for quality jobs, a renewables revolution and finally being able to meet our climate targets. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-O'Donoghue.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Robert-O'Donoghue.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Robert O'Donoghue  I want to acknowledge my party colleagues today for bringing forward this motion because ordinary working - people I represent Dublin Fingal West - are to the pins of their collars trying to pay for heating their homes, filling the cars and putting food on the table. Ireland has the highest costs of energy prices in the EU, and why? It is because this Government continues to hand incentives, discounts and preferential treatment to some of the wealthiest corporations on the planet for their data centres. These are companies and tech billionaires who do not need a subsidy from the Irish taxpayer. The cost of these decisions is being carried by ordinary people struggling through crisis after crisis. We are living through a series of crises. It is an omnicrisis happening all at once: a housing crisis; a fuel crisis; a food and cost-of-living crisis; a childcare crisis; health and mental health crises; and a disability crisis. People are exhausted, angry and frustrated. That frustration is turning into resentment because they feel that the system is working for powerful interests and not working for them. At the same time, millions of euro are being poured into data centres, AI infrastructure and corporate expansion, while households are told to tighten their belts and accept ever-rising bills. This is where the climate crisis comes in.  The climate crisis is deeply connected to every one of these pressures I have mentioned for working families. However, too many people have been led to believe that climate change is somehow a distant issue. There is no point in telling people that temperatures are rising when what they are living through is extreme weather, such as flooding that is ripping up the roads and damaging homes. The climate crisis is driving food insecurity through higher food prices and reduced access to good, nutritious food. It contributes to energy instability and rising fuel costs. It places greater pressure on public services in the communities that are already stretched to breaking point. If we continue to protect corporate profits while asking ordinary people to bear the burden, we fail on both social justice and climate. The answer is not to make working families pay more. The answer is to make the biggest polluters and wealthiest beneficiaries of our energy system pay their fair share. We must use that revenue to lower bills, strengthen public services and build resilience against the crises people are facing every day. For the people struggling to keep the lights on, fill the tank and feed their children, that will be the understanding of climate crisis - it is not separate from their lives; it is woven into them. Until we address those realities together, we will solve none of them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Duncan Smith","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Duncan-Smith.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Duncan-Smith.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Duncan Smith  This Government is going backwards with climate change. I commend Deputy Ahern on this motion and his commitment to bringing home to all the people of Ireland the impact that data centres are having not only on our climate but also on their household bills and the cost-of-living crisis. The UN has referenced us as a cautionary tale. Yet, does Ireland listen? No. When the tech bros call, this Irish Government jumps and asks, \u201cHow high?\u201d Its amendment to the motion is absolutely embarrassing. It opens with the point that the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, states that we are moving in the right direction. The Minister, Deputy O'Brien, did a media tour two weeks ago and admitted that we are nowhere near hitting our carbon reduction targets. He admitted it. This Government admits that, at best, if everything goes in the right direction for it, it will get a 25% reduction in emissions. It is, quite frankly, embarrassing. What is this Government also allowing to happen? What is this Government allowing to be brought to the debate? It is allowing its own backbenchers to start to talk about nuclear power and bring that into the debate when so many other European states have either ended their reliance on nuclear power or are phasing it out. Italy, Germany, Lithuania, Belgium and Spain are all at different levels of either ending nuclear power or have pledged to reduce it. What is Ireland doing in 2026? We are going to bring nuclear power back in, so let us have a grown-up debate about it. It is absolutely pathetic.  This Government and this Minister are all over the place on climate and not just the big level in terms of power generation and data centres, but right down to public transport. I do not accept that this Minister is new in the brief. He understands from his previous brief the importance of climate mitigation measures when it comes to transport. In the constituency we share in Donabate where there has been an awful lot of house building, we have only seen one new bus in the morning with no return bus in the evening. We have seen no movement on the four-track solution for the northern commuter line, which is the most congested commuter line in Ireland. My colleague, Deputy O'Donoghue, will attest to that. It is absolutely pathetic. I also want an answer in terms of what this Government is allowing to happen with Dublin Bus routes. Our understanding is that Dublin Bus is now going to have to take 35 old EV and AX models in to busy routes in Dublin city centre while Go-Ahead Ireland is going to get 35 new electric or hybrid vehicles on less busy urban routes because Go-Ahead Ireland is failing to deliver a service on those routes. Air quality in Dublin city is one of the worst in Europe and this Government is forcing Dublin Bus to take old buses and disimprove that air quality. It is an absolute disgrace from top to bottom. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ged Nash  As my colleague Deputy Smith said, the Government's countermotion is embarrassing and shameful. Really, it is a Comical Ali-type approach to politics.  It does good government, and the idea of good government, a disservice. Frankly, we need to put the breaks on the development of data centres, at least until our grid capacity increases and household bills come down.  If this Government put more energy, pun intended, into developing our offshore wind capacity rather than developing more data centres, we might build the kind of resilience we need in our grid for industry and domestic customers to avail of plentiful and cheap energy, but as usual the Government is putting the cart before the horse and is left wondering why the cart is not pulling. The Government has made, and will make today, all kinds of thin arguments to say we are wrong. It will argue that data centres create jobs. The reality is they take up massive acreage and resources and create only a comparatively small handful of long-term jobs. As the motion lays out, over 22% of our electricity is already being used up by data centres and by 2030 that will be over 30%. At the current rate of growth, it will not be long before over half of our electricity is eaten up by this one source.  As colleagues have said, Ireland has the highest electricity prices in the EU. The fact we are also the European leader in data centre permissions is no accident, and this Government needs to join the dots. There is a direct link between the proliferation of data centres in the country and ever-rising energy bills. Research by Friends of the Earth shows that Irish households paid an estimated \u20ac715 million more in electricity bills from 2015 to 2023 directly due to data centres. That is an equivalent of some \u20ac360 per household. In effect, in Ireland, under this Government, each bill payer is charged a data centre tax. The same research shows that Irish households face a further \u20ac1.43 billion in rising bills up to 2034 because of the projected growth in data centres. That will mean an extra \u20ac644 per household on household bills.  These are the same bills for which the Government used taxpayers' money to help pay for energy credits in recent years. Think about that \u2013 these are effectively more taxpayer subsidies for data centres. These increases I referred to will disproportionately impact on lower income households. That is why in this motion we are also calling for targeted energy credits and SEAI supports for households in budget 2027.  The motion also makes clear Labour\u2019s opposition to the decision made in the Critical Infrastructure Bill to disapply section 15 of the climate Act. This is constitutionally dubious and is wide open to challenge. That Bill is concluding in the Seanad this week and it is not too late for the Government to change course. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aindrias Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Aindrias Moynihan)  Gabhaim comhghairdeas leis an Aire St\u00e1it nua. Go n-\u00e9ir\u00ed an t-\u00e1dh lei ina phost nua. I offer the Minister of State many congratulations on her new role. I call on her to move the Government\u2019s amendment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Ardagh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration (Deputy Catherine Ardagh)  I move amendment No. 1:  To delete all words after \"D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann\" and substitute the following:  \"notes that in relation to Climate Action:  \u2014 last month, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) launched its latest Ireland's Greenhouse Gas Emissions Projections 2025-2030, which show that we are moving in the right direction and improving our performance compared with the previous year;  \u2014 for the first time, the EPA now projects that we are close to meeting our first carbon budget, following a consistent trend of improving projections for that budget over recent years;  \u2014 the EPA is projecting a decrease in emissions of between 13 per cent and 25 per cent by 2030 (from 2018 base);  \u2014 emissions are reducing across many sectors while our population is growing, and our economy is growing;  \u2014 we now have the lowest level of greenhouse gas emissions in 35 years, and we have decoupled growth from emissions;  \u2014 Ireland is at the forefront of transitioning to an electricity system dominated by variable renewable energy sources, such as wind and solar, and indeed renewable sources generated almost half of Ireland's electricity in February, March and April of this year;  \u2014 significant investment has taken place in increasing the technical flexibility of Ireland's power system to enhance its renewable integration capabilities \u2013 through storage and other technologies;  \u2014 the electricity system in Ireland can operate with up to 75 per cent wind and solar at any given moment; and  \u2014 there are now 241,000 electric and hybrid vehicles on Irish roads;  in relation to, energy affordability:  \u2014 the Government is deeply aware of the pressures placed on households and businesses by high energy costs, and has taken a number of steps to support households and business;  \u2014 the National Energy Affordability Taskforce (NEAT) was established in June 2025 to identify, assess and implement measures that will enhance energy affordability for households and businesses while delivering key renewables commitments and protecting security of supply and economic stability;  \u2014 in recent months the Government introduced a \u20ac750 million package of fuel supports, which is among the largest per capita of any European Union state, while Budget 2026 had a range of other measures;  \u2014 the Value-Added Tax (VAT) rate on electricity bills has been reduced to 9 per cent VAT until 2030;  \u2014 enhanced social protection payments have been introduced, including an increase to the fuel allowance rate and an expansion of the eligibility rules, which applies to about a quarter of Irish households; and  \u2014 the NEAT continues to work intensively on an energy affordability action plan to be submitted to the Government in quarter 3 of this year;  in relation to, infrastructure delivery:  \u2014 a record allocation of \u20ac640 million in Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland (SEAI) retrofitting schemes;  \u2014 since 2019, we have invested over \u20ac1.8 billion in retrofitting, and we have been able to provide energy upgrades for 268,000 homes;  \u2014 in the first quarter of 2026, over 12,000 homes have been upgraded through SEAI schemes, including over 1,500 homes at risk of energy poverty under the Warmer Homes Scheme;  \u2014 since the formation of this Government, over 70,000 homes have been upgraded, including over 9,000 homes at risk of energy poverty under the Warmer Homes Scheme;  \u2014 Ireland currently has over 8 GW of renewable generation capacity, and onshore wind is the largest contributor to this, with over 5 GW of wind generation capacity and 2.5 GW of Solar Photovoltaics installed, with hydro, biomass, and other small sources contributing the remainder;  \u2014 Government approval was received in July 2025 for \u20ac3.5 billion investment in EirGrid and ESB to facilitate the investment programme of up to \u20ac18.9 billion out to 2030, and connection of 5 GW offshore wind; and  \u2014 the Critical Infrastructure Bill 2026, is a timely and important piece of legislation and will make a significant contribution to the prompt delivery of nationally important infrastructure, whilst maintaining robust regulatory, environmental and planning safeguards;  in relation to:  \u2014 data centres are a very important part of Ireland's economic and digital present and future, and a key part of our value proposition for foreign direct investment;  \u2014 the recent KPMG study on data centres, undertaken on behalf of the Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment, reports there are 19,500 directly employed in the industry;  \u2014 Ireland's industrial electricity demand is primarily concentrated in our digital economy, this is our core energy intensive industry;  \u2014 the Commission for the Regulation of Utilities (CRU) Data Centre Connection policy published in 2025, clearly set out what is required for a new data centre connection, including the requirement to get 80 per cent of its energy through new renewable sources; and  \u2014 the CRU decision simply refers to market research data on 5.8 GW of prospective interest in data centre growth, rather than linked to any contractual demand in place at present; and  further recognises that:  \u2014 the Government is committed to taking further action to deliver on the twin objective of decarbonisation and digitalisation in a sustainable and affordable manner;  \u2014 the Government is committed to delivering on Ireland's responsibility to address the climate crisis, and work remains ongoing right across Government to implement climate mitigation measures every single day of the week;  \u2014 the priority is driving implementation, particularly on high-impact measures with multiple societal and economic benefits;  \u2014 the Climate Action Plan will be more focused on the most impactful measures and will report on the ones that make the biggest difference;  \u2014 the NEAT continues to work intensively on an energy affordability action plan to be submitted to the Government in quarter 3 of this year; and  \u2014 the Government's Large Energy User Action Plan, published in January 2026 sets out a 'plan-led' approach for very large and energy intensive investments, which due to scale and energy consumption will benefit from coordinated national infrastructure planning.\".  I welcome the opportunity to discuss the Labour Party Private Members\u2019 motion on data centres, energy use and climate change. However, the Government proposes to reject this motion and put forward a countermotion. The Government is fully committed to delivering on Ireland\u2019s climate ambition across all sectors and to progressing climate action in a planned and coherent way.  Our approach ensures that sustainability, affordability, competitiveness and energy security remain central to this policy. This is reflected in our countermotion, where we demonstrate through effective and focused policies and measures that we are making tangible progress towards objectives of decarbonisation while supporting sustained economic growth for wider societal benefits.  With regard to climate action, Ireland now has the lowest level of greenhouse gas emissions in 35 years, decoupling population growth and economic success from emissions. The EPA now projects that we are close to meeting our first carbon budget, and a decrease in emissions of between 13% and 25% by 2030. The work remains ongoing right across government to implement climate mitigation measures. The priority is driving implementation, particularly on high-impact measures with multiple societal and economic benefits.  Climate action plans 2024 and 2025 provide the basis for this progress. Work is under way on the next climate action plan, with public consultation launched this week. The plan will continue to focus on the most impactful measures. For example, Ireland is at the forefront of transitioning to an electricity system dominated by variable renewable energy sources, such as wind and solar, and we have achieved record breaking levels of renewable electricity generation, reducing our reliance on imported fossil fuels.  Most notably, emissions from electricity generation are estimated to reduce by between 53% and 60% by 2030. Significant investment has taken place in increasing the technical flexibility of Ireland\u2019s power system to enhance its renewable integration capabilities. The electricity system in Ireland can operate with up to 75% wind and solar at any given moment. The International Energy Agency, IEA, recognised this achievement as remarkable and a global milestone.  Ireland currently has over 8 GW of renewable generation capacity, with over 5 GW onshore wind and 2.5 GW of solar PV installed, and hydro, biomass and other small sources contributing to the remainder. The Government has also prioritised unprecedented investment in our grid - of up to \u20ac18.9 billion, underpinned by \u20ac3.5 billion Government equity investment - and expanding our electricity energy generation, with an emphasis on renewable energy sources, which will be advantageous for all customers and will ensure Ireland's electricity grid continues to provide capacity to support the delivery of Government targets across society and the economy.  Infrastructure delivery, and having a grid that is fit for purpose to support this, is critical to future success. The Critical Infrastructure Bill is a central pillar of the Government's accelerating infrastructure report and will make a significant contribution to the prompt delivery of nationally important infrastructure while maintaining robust regulatory, environmental and planning safeguards. Accelerated delivery of infrastructure does not disapply our climate commitments or our national level targets, but recognises an urgent need for the completion of major infrastructure projects in the State.  The Bill provides for the disapplication of section 15 of the Climate Action and Low Carbon Development Act 2015 in very limited circumstances for programmes and projects designated as critical infrastructure. It does not disapply our climate commitments or our national level targets. It will lead to a better balance in decision-making that will lead to accelerated infrastructure while also preserving the rights of the public to access the courts on the legality of the decisions of public bodies.  The motion also raised a number of concerns with respect to data centres. Data centres are central to Ireland's modern economy and play a critical enabling role across a wide range of digitally intensive sectors, enhancing the competitiveness of the Irish economy. They strengthen Ireland\u2019s position as a strategic knowledge intensive regional hub for the ICT sector and also support broader retention and expansion of existing investment that supports billions in annual economic value for Ireland via high-wage employment, tax receipts and supplier ecosystems.  According to independent analysis, the industry employs 19,500 people directly. Our technology sector, underpinned by data centre infrastructure, accounted for approximately 7% of our total workforce and over half of total services exports. Their value is evident and the Government remains committed to supporting sustainable data centre development as a result. It is important to note that unlike countries like the Netherlands, Germany and the UK, Ireland does not host a large, energy-intensive industrial sector. Ireland's industrial electricity demand is primarily concentrated in our digital economy. This is our core energy-intensive industry. Germany and other countries consume more electricity to support their heavy industry sites like car manufacturing, steel and chemicals.  Connecting such large energy loads is a challenge many energy systems are grappling with across the world. In response, the Government\u2019s large energy user action plan, LEAP, published in January 2026, set out a plan-led approach for very large and energy intensive investments, including data centres, which due to scale and energy consumption will benefit from co-ordinated national infrastructure planning.  LEAP will enable Ireland to capture next generation investment in a planned and managed way and unlock significant associated economic, employment and renewable energy opportunities. Alongside LEAP, the CRU data centre connection policy sets out what is required for new data centre connections, including the requirement to get 80% of its energy through new renewable electricity generated in Ireland.  The Government is acutely aware of the pressure faced by high energy costs and is taking action to help households and businesses with the cost of energy. In recent months the Government introduced a \u20ac750 million package of fuel supports, which is among the largest per capita of any EU state. Previously, the Government included a range of measures in budget 2026 to help households with energy costs, namely, an extended VAT reduction on electricity and gas bills until 2030, an increase to the fuel allowance payment and expanded eligibility, which applies to about a quarter of Irish households, and a record allocation of \u20ac640 million for SEAI retrofit home energy upgrade schemes.  Since 2019, we have invested over \u20ac1.8 billion in retrofitting and we have been able to provide energy upgrades for 268,000 homes. These upgrades protect those homes and families from energy shocks and reduce their costs and energy consumption.  The national energy affordability task force is working intensively on an energy affordability plan, which will be submitted to the Government in quarter 3. It will include measures that will enhance energy affordability for households and businesses while delivering key renewables commitments and protecting security of supply and economic stability.  In closing, I reiterate that the Government\u2019s amendment reflects the reality of the commitments in place and more importantly the tangible progress being made and further actions being taken to support and reduce emissions and to retain a prosperous and competitive economy, with targeted supports for households and businesses as required.  The Government is committed to delivering on Ireland's responsibility to address the climate crisis, and work is ongoing on the next climate action plan. Work across our governance structures, key sectors and in government is under way to outline the key deliverables to continue to reduce our emissions in the most impactful of ways. The national energy affordability task force continues to work intensively on an energy affordability action plan to be submitted to the Government in quarter 3 of this year.  The Government\u2019s LEAP advances a plan-led approach for very large and energy intensive investments that will facilitate future investment while unlocking Ireland\u2019s renewable energy opportunities. I reiterate that the Government rejects the Labour Party motion, and I propose the Government amendment that more accurately reflects the reality of the situation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Conor Sheehan  I congratulate the Minister of State on her appointment, and that is probably where the good news ends.  I am very disappointed with the Government's amendment. In fact, I found parts of it quite laughable. \"Sustainable data centre development\" almost sounds like someone coming along 30 or 40 years ago and saying that we need to move sustainable smoking, and that if a person smokes a packet of Marlboro Lights, it is not as bad.  It is not just about electricity, water and carbon emissions. We have seen that data centres place considerable strain on local infrastructure. We are literally halfway through the year. Notwithstanding the fact that the climate Minister is not here, where is the climate action plan? We need to introduce a levy upon data centres to help offset the costs and to drive down the extraordinarily high bills that the people we all represent are struggling with.  The concern that I have is that we are in the middle of an industrial revolution when it comes to artificial intelligence, and this Government is fumbling around in the dark. There was a report by the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, a couple of months ago that found that one in 14 jobs could be affected by AI. We could be looking at widespread labour displacement, yet I am hearing nothing from the Government that inspires me with confidence that it knows how to navigate its way through this. Any data centre growth must be aligned with offshore renewables.  In the time I have left, I want to talk about housing because climate can and must be a critical consideration of the Government's response to the housing crisis. The Government set a target that 500,000 homes would be retrofitted to a BER of B2 by 2030, and that 400,000 heat pumps would be installed. According to the SEAI, we had only 80,000 retrofits between 2018 and 2025 and only 18,765 heat pump installations. These numbers are way off target.  I do not understand what the Government is doing in respect of this new electric car grant because the biggest issue that my constituents raise with me about the transition to electric vehicles is the lack of an adequate charging infrastructure. Electric cars are actually getting cheaper and outselling diesel and petrol cars at the moment, which means that the market is working. Instead of gimmicky grants, we need to see investment in the charging infrastructure. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mark Wall  I want to start by thanking my colleague, Deputy Ciar\u00e1n Ahern, for bringing forward this very important motion and for all of the work he is doing on this issue.  Ireland has one of the highest electricity costs in Europe. Eurostat recently reported that prices in Ireland were nearly 40% above the EU average. It seems that every other week an energy provider is upping its prices once again. The Government cannot continue to sit on its hands while this happens.  Many workers are just surviving, going from bill to bill, while those hardest hit like older people, carers and people with disabilities are afraid to turn on the lights or heating. Over 500,000 households cannot afford to pay their gas or electricity bills. We need a targeted energy credit to help workers and families that are struggling with the high cost of energy. The Labour Party has continued to call for this because it would provide immediate relief to those struggling, but the Government continues to turn its back on workers.  Workers, older people, carers and people with disabilities must be prioritised when we talk about targeted measures. We need to get greater investment in supports and grants that help these households retrofit their homes, so that they are protected from ongoing price shocks like we are seeing at the moment.  We need to look at fully funded grants for these households. I want to give the Minister of State the example of an older man who called into my office this week. He is trying to access the SEAI's one-stop-shop to retrofit his home, which is in a very poor condition. He was quoted \u20ac850 for a survey and consultation, with a grant available of \u20ac350, meaning that he would have to come up with \u20ac500 of his own money just to start this process. That is simply not money that people like the person who came to my office have lying around.  I acknowledge that the Government has made increases in these grants. The warmer homes scheme grant is one of the best grants for those who qualify, but waiting an average of two years for works on many homes, and particularly for those who need it most, is just not sustainable. We are in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis where every euro is being counted. People do not have the money to make these upgrades to their homes, and the Government needs to do more.  Workers and families are facing higher bills because the Government supports data centres more than working people. We need to put an immediate stop to the building of data centres, which are using more than 20% of Ireland's electricity and are on track to be largest electricity users in this country. We cannot let this continue. We cannot become the data centre capital of Europe.  The Labour Party's motion calls for the Government to put workers first, tackle the high energy bills they are facing and provide fully funded grants so that households can retrofit their homes. The Government must take this issue seriously and finally show up for workers. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  I wish my former public accounts committee colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Ardagh, the very best in her role. It is probably remiss of me to mention that there are the Minister and two Ministers of State in this Department, yet none of them is able to show up for this debate. I commend my colleague, Deputy Ciar\u00e1n Ahern, and his staff for the work they have done in bringing this motion to the D\u00e1il Chamber.  When we discuss the rising costs in energy bills being paid by households, it is vital that we look at where the energy from the grid is going, what it is being used for and what we, the Irish people, are getting out of it.  Data centres employ relatively few people. The level of employment relating to data centres is in the construction of them and, of course, those projects are time limited. In turn, I strongly encourage Ministers to stop trying to muddy the waters between the employment within a data centre and the employment in the construction of a data centre. It is dishonest and we should not have such conflation coming from Ministers.  In the pre-election budget of 2024, the Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael Government introduced energy supports. Post election, the new Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael Government scrapped these supports. I am not in favour of introducing one-off measures, but targeted supports are necessary, and the Government failed to provide them to the carers and people living with disabilities, the most vulnerable people in this society.  However, when there is no short-term solution, an advancement in the construction of renewable energy and renewable energy infrastructure is not a swift process.  The State must act to ensure that households are not being pinned to their collar just for heating and running their homes, for which they already paid extortionate prices to buy or to rent. For the average worker and household, it feels like there is no end to the rising cost of living. This is all while wages remain stagnant.  The lack of a climate act plan is very concerning in relation to progress and for meeting our targets. While some in the Opposition also profess to care about the climate, voting in favour of gutting it in the D\u00e1il and the Seanad undermines progress on climate action. On a national level, there must be a renewed interest from central government to get more capacity in our bus and rail network, to invest in a lower emissions fleet, and to reduce the cost of public transport for commuters. The State must ensure that those living in our towns, cities and villages can be assured that public transport is cheaper and genuinely viable for commuters. The fact that many multinationals in Ireland - I look at Apple on the northside of Cork city - continue to run their own bus services from the cities and towns for their staff speaks to the lack of faith in the State's ability to ramp up public infrastructure routes and capacity. This has to change. I will always acknowledge efforts by the Government to increase services. Services by rail in Cork have improved and there are ambitious plans for the rail network and for the Cork Luas. However, these are long-term projects that must overcome funding hurdles. We need to see the delivery of proposed bus routes linking rural areas and towns, and we need to see a reduction in fares to ensure affordability and encourage more people out of their cars.  This motion is ultimately about supporting the most vulnerable people in this society, who feel there is no end to the cost-of-living crisis they are facing. I am disappointed that the Government has failed to realise that this motion of constructive solutions, created by the Labour Party to give the most vulnerable people in this society an opportunity to deal with the cost of living they are facing, is appropriate for these very people. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pa Daly  First, I congratulate the Minister of State on her elevation. It is obvious that she has to take one for the team, given that no Minister or Minister of State from the relevant Department has come in to deal with this. Fair play to her. However, I am disappointed with what has been prepared as the amendment by her colleagues in government.  The Government maintains that it is acutely aware of the pressure faced by people due to high energy costs and mentions the national energy affordability task force. It has been sitting for over a year but we are still going to have to wait until quarter 3 of this year to have the action plan while families and households are suffering. The EV scheme, even though there have been some recent amendments to it, has for the main part been nothing more than a wealth transfer to people who can afford cars that are worth \u20ac55,000 or more. The retrofitting scheme has been unaffordable for many people in rural areas. Regarding offshore wind, a Minister of State said on Radio Kerry that the Government had been sitting on its hands and navel-gazing on it. I cannot say I disagree with the wise words from that particular Minister of State. All in all, the Government has been failing on climate action. We have huge potential with the hopeful vision of the 540 GW of renewable energy in offshore wind. We can achieve energy independence but we need State investment.  As the Minister of State knows, we have the highest electricity prices in the EU. Recent reports from the ESRI and Eurostat show we are paying 40% more than the European average - \u20ac480 more than the average bill - and have the third highest increase in costs behind Austria and Romania. There are a record number of households. Their debt levels are higher and lasting for longer than ever before. The ESRI called for an independent investigation and for the regulator to release the data for independent analysis, but the Government and the regulator have refused.  One of the key drivers is network costs. The Government has not intervened. It is saying that we must get the balance right, keep our powder dry and there is nothing it can do. It is saying that it is all the fault of the war in Ukraine and the war Iran and that it is too complex and technical to fix. However, that is not the case. We used to have the lowest electricity prices in the EU and now we have the highest. Fine F\u00e1il and Fine Gael have presided over this change. Not only did they do nothing to stop it, but they reinforced the system. They chose not to intervene and the energy giants are posting about enormous profits, profits that have been driven by crisis, war and instability.  There are solutions, though. We believe in transparency and fairness, a just transition, and an energy system that delivers for the public good rather than for corporate profit. We have tabled legislation with commonsense measures to give the energy regulator the teeth it needs to hold energy companies to account, including a prioritisation framework. However, we need immediate action on that. That is why Sinn F\u00e9in called for the reintroduction of energy credits. I see that is in the motion that is being proposed by Deputy Ahern. I commend him on bringing his motion to the D\u00e1il to allow space to discuss this. We wanted the electricity credits to give families breathing space while we fixed the deeper structural problems that have left Ireland with some of the highest energy costs in Europe. To reduce prices long term, we need to address the flaws. We wanted to strengthen oversight of energy companies' pricing and hedging strategies, allow the regulator to investigate and sanction anti-competitive behaviour, and increase transparency.  Let us come to the Government's reckless approach to data centres. They consume massive amounts of electricity, drive demand and put strain on the grid. Who is footing the bill only ordinary workers and families paying six, eight or maybe ten times more on network charges than data centres are, and double the unit price? What did Eurostat identify in its report as the leading factor in Ireland's extortionate energy costs? Network charges. We must address one of the glaring injustices in our system, which is the imbalance between what households and large energy users like data centres are paying. Households are effectively subsidising the corporations that are driving up demand on our grid and, therefore, prices to boot. The biggest users are paying the least and households are paying the price for these grid upgrades. Data centres must pay their fair share. We need to restructure the charges and the public service obligation, PSO, levy and prioritise the use of our grid for the public good rather than unfettered data centre expansion. Families are dealing with soaring electricity bills. Data centres now consume 22% of Ireland's electricity, and that is only increasing. A stall needs to be put on them and we are calling on the Government to act to rebalance the system. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louis O'Hara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Louis O'Hara  The continued growth of data centres and their growing energy demand is having a significant impact on our electricity grid and the cost of electricity. Data centres are responsible for approximately 20% of Ireland's electricity demand, and the Government's hands-off approach to their expansion is going to increase this share of demand in the coming years. A recent report found that rising electricity demand from data centres is putting upward pressure on electricity costs for households, coming at a time when households are facing rising costs right across the board. According to Eurostat, Ireland has the highest household electricity prices in the European Union and the average household in Ireland is paying around \u20ac480 more a year for its electricity when compared to the EU average. It comes then as no surprise that there are over 500,000 households in arrears on their energy bills. In recent weeks, energy companies have once again announced that they are going to be hiking up energy prices further.  Earlier this year, Sinn F\u00e9in introduced two Bills that would have empowered the energy regulator to hold energy companies to account. We have consistently brought forward proposals to increase the powers of the energy regulator to ensure oversight of hedging practices, protect against price gouging and profiteering, regulate standing charges, and make the PSO levy and network charges fair. These are the tools needed to protect consumers, yet the Government refuses to support this legislation and these proposals when so many households are being hammered by the cost of energy.  This is not the first time that the Government has sat on its hands and refused to protect households. In last year's budget, it decided to withdraw the energy credits that many households depended on. It knew the effect this would have, especially on the most vulnerable, but it went ahead with it anyway. We saw this cold approach once again when it came to the recent fuel crisis where the Government had the opportunity to support households, but it decided to dither and delay. When it decided to act, it only delivered half-measures. Now, the Government is telling everybody to wait for next year's budget for support. This is at a time when the Government has unprecedented resources. It is no comfort to the 500,000 households in arrears right now. The only commitment that the Government has been able to give is that it will be increasing the carbon tax on home heating oil in October's budget.  Households are struggling now. The Government has the tools available to support them.  The Government must use them to ensure households can afford the essentials needed to live, hold energy companies accountable and deliver supports to those who need them most. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"R\u00e9ada Cronin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy R\u00e9ada Cronin  Ba mhaith liom mo bhu\u00edochas a ghabh\u00e1il leis an Teachta Ahern as an r\u00fan Chomhalta\u00ed Pr\u00edobh\u00e1ideacha seo a chur chun cinn. Over 22% of the electricity we currently use is used by data centres. That is up from 5% in 2015, a rise of 531% over that period, the equivalent of almost 400,000 households. This is set to rise to over 30% by 2030 and 55% if projected growth continues. All the while, our grid is creaking at the seams. Major upgrades are needed immediately and well into the future if we are to build the houses and infrastructure we so desperately need to support our citizens. Speaking at the climate committee in March this year during a session on private wires, ICTU noted a scarce resource of labour, giving us a stark warning that we can either throw our resources at housing, reinforcing the grid and protecting our infrastructure or we throw those resources at data centres. Expanding grid capacity to facilitate data centre expansion is not only costing households more in electricity bills, it is also leapfrogging housing for electric connections. We are at a crossroads. A recent UN report on the environmental cost of AI's energy use cited Ireland specifically as a cautionary tale of energy demand running ahead of infrastructure. AI's growth completely outpaces energy planning. This is particularly concerning my constituency in north Kildare where the Herbata data centre proposed for Naas will create serious difficulties for future housing developments in the area and water quality. The truth is AI completely outpaces energy planning. We have to be concerned about the growth of data centres increasingly being driven by AI and numerous social media bots that spread disinformation and manipulate public debate. At a time when households are struggling with high energy costs and we, as a State, are striving to reduce emissions, serious questions must be asked about why we are dedicating so much energy infrastructure to activities that undermine the people's democracy in a Republic. Expecting the people in my constituency to pay to subsidise it beggars belief. Not only are data centres increasing household bills, they also directly impact the state of our environment. They will continue to contribute to our carbon footprint and our nation's emissions as they expand. Fines could be as much as \u20ac28 billion. We need a moratorium on data centres immediately and for the Government to properly tackle energy costs. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  I congratulate the Minister of State on her new post. I alert her that the Government continues to fail the ordinary people struggling to keep the lights on and their homes warm. A new record of more than 500,000 are now in arrears on their gas and electricity bills. The most impactful action by this Government was to pull the plug, withdrawing energy credits that were for many people just keeping their heads above water. There are an additional 200,000 households in arrears since the Government made that cruel choice. Even that does not take into account those who cannot afford to top up their pay-as-you-go meters or reflect those who cannot afford to keep their homes warm with home heating oil because not one cent was reduced. The Government imposes a carbon tax on the people yet at the same time it stands aside and allows our constituents to be hammered on energy costs. It takes a light-touch approach to energy companies especially data centres which now consume 22% of all electricity. Government is not responsible for the root cause of this crisis but it is utterly shameful that its policy choices are responsible for the scale of the impact on ordinary households. The Government needs to act for the people. Action needs to be taken to end the practice of ordinary households subsidising energy bills for big tech companies and for households in need of relief through the restoration of energy costs. I ask Deputy Ardagh as a new Minister of State to stand up to this supposed Government, stand by the consumers and make the big tech companies pay for their electricity. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Kenny.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Martin-Kenny.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Martin Kenny  The electricity grid is out of date. It simply does not work. It is not capable of meeting the growing demand across all sectors in particular data centres which are causing huge problems. Ordinary people and small businesses are under strain to try to pay very high bills. We are told we have the highest in Europe. If you looked at it globally, we are probably among the highest. We need to look at our situation. It goes to the core of the difference between Government and Opposition. Government has continually over the years set out everything essential to private providers. From the point of view of those in opposition, it should be provided by the State. That is the difference. When we had the lowest electricity prices in Europe, the ESB was run by the State. That is the difference. We are told when all these things are done, it will be good for the consumer because competition will bring prices down. When you go back and look at all these situations, two things happen - prices go up and infrastructure crumbles. That is the case in all of these situations. It is no different here. The reality is we do not have the capacity in this Government to provide the kind of infrastructure we need. I recall when the Green Party was in government it said we had the equivalent of a Gulf oil stream off the coast with wind if we could only get it in and there was the notion that we would be the richest country in the world with all the wind power we were going to generate to export everywhere. We have not done anything with regard to putting that infrastructure in place. Government is totally failing in respect of all of this. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fionnt\u00e1n \u00d3 S\u00failleabh\u00e1in","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fionnt\u00e1n-\u00d3-S\u00failleabh\u00e1in.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Fionnt\u00e1n-\u00d3-S\u00failleabh\u00e1in.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Fionnt\u00e1n \u00d3 S\u00failleabh\u00e1in  I visited the new data centre in Clondalkin last month at the invitation of Echelon which is installing two centres outside Arklow. I heard extraordinary and fantastical claims of the benefits in terms of employment and income for Arklow and the wider area. We shall see about that. Even if I was to believe it all, once the plant is operational the benefits to the community of Arklow and south Wicklow in local employment may be minimal. I am sure their electricity will not be any cheaper. On my visit, I stressed that local contractors and local labour from south Wicklow and north Wexford must be a priority in the building of the two centres and that a large community fund should be made available to local community groups. Echelon's two data centres in Arklow are supposed to be the first of such centres to open which must generate renewable energy to run their own systems. It will be exceptional if this happens. Currently, there are 89 centres in Ireland which is straining the national grid. I attended a meeting on this with Professor Hannah Daly in the audiovisual room. She highlighted how they are straining power grids enormously, gobbling up 22% of the grid and that may become just under one third shortly. This can affect home connections to the electricity grid which need to be the number one priority. If the new data centres in Arklow do go ahead, I hope they will be the exception to the other 89, as claimed. Last year, I attended the launch of the long-awaited Arklow wastewater treatment plant which should facilitate desperately needed housing in the Arklow area. I attended the Echelon launch an hour later. The Taoiseach was at both. We cannot ever tolerate data centres taking precedence over young families and new home owners when both are competing for connections to the electricity grid. That would be unconscionable as I am sure the Minister of State would agree. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Natasha Newsome Drennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan  I too would like to wish the Minister of State the best in her new post. A single data centre uses as much energy as the entire city of Kilkenny. In the middle of a housing crisis, this Government has prioritised powering data centres faster than powering new homes across Carlow and Kilkenny. Homes are in urgent need but due to lack of infrastructure they cannot proceed. Nearly one quarter of our entire national grid is consumed by these centres. Ordinary families and workers are subsidising multinational profits. That is simply unfair. We now have nearly 100 data centres across the State. At the same time, the Government is rushing to build wind turbines across rural Ireland but much of that energy is wasted because our national grid is simply not fit for purpose. The community of Ballytobin has a modest, reasonable ask - no more wind farms until the national wind energy development guidelines are updated. It has been 20 years since they were last revised. Building regulations are updated constantly to keep people safe and ensure best practice so why does the safety of rural communities matter less than that of our houses? We have seen what happens when regulations are not kept up to date; the people and the State end up paying the price.  I support this most modest of requests from the community of Ballytobin and I call on the Minister of State to stop stalling and provide updated regulations and guidelines. This climate crisis is not letting up. We are seeing more and more extreme weather across the world. At the start of the year, devastating floods hit County Carlow. Ministers arrived for photo opportunities and grand announcements. A sum of \u20ac4 million was pledged to repair damaged roads. Here we are in the middle of June and these funds still have not been released to the councils. It is simply unacceptable that the communities across County Carlow are treated with such a lack of respect. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Johnny Mythen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Johnny-Mythen.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Johnny-Mythen.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Johnny Mythen  I too congratulate the Minister of State on her appointment. I thank the Labour Party for bringing forward the motion. I am a member of the Oireachtas committee on AI. We have listened to many academic and expert contributions concerning data centres, energy and climate change. As stated, 22% of our electricity is consumed by data centres. The country coming anywhere close to this is Singapore. To put this into context as it stands, this is an unprecedented percentage per capita in a developed economy.  The Minister of State must also be aware that EirGrid has already acknowledged it will be a challenging position to keep supply to these data centres until 2028 and will likely stretch beyond that. We in Sinn F\u00e9in challenge the Government's postcolonial strategy specifically on industrialisation by invitation. We must have meant governance and tackle the environmental impacts and implications on our own citizens. For example, taxpayers are footing the bill for grid upgrades. Between 2015 and 2023, Irish taxpayers paid \u20ac750 million extra for their electricity. We had the second-highest electricity prices in the EU in the second half of 2025. We also have more than 500,000 people in gas and electricity arrears. On 1 July, we will see the price of domestic electricity and gas units increase by 9.5% per unit. At present, domestic units are charged at roughly 36.8 cent per kilowatt while data centres' prices are 19.1 cents per kilowatt.  The Government's amendment refers to its large energy user plan. We ask the Minister of State to revisit this plan as it has the potential to lock in our energy sector, effectively locking private tech solutions, including more fossil fuel gases, into our energy grid. This action threatens our public energy legislation that has been in place since the foundation of the State. There should be no unnecessary trade-offs or cost of doing business if it allows mechanisms of backdoor privatisation on our national energy sector. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Whitmore  I congratulate the Minister of State on her new role and wish her the best in it. I thank the Labour Party for this very important and extensive motion. Any time we get to debate energy, climate action and the cost of living in this D\u00e1il Chamber it is very worthwhile. I have just read through the amendment the Government has tabled. I understand the normal process is that the speechwriters do the speeches but I ask the Minister State to cast a critical eye over it because the amount of spin in the document is incredible. The one thing we need to be with the public is honest when it comes to not only the risks of climate change but also the level of climate action. If the Government gives the impression that all of these actions are happening and all of this momentum and change is happening and it is not actually happening, there is a huge risk from a climate and environmental perspective. This is such an important area because there is also a huge level of risk when it comes to social cohesion. We have seen that in Ireland to a small degree, but when we look at the UK, the US or other countries in Europe, there is a real divide in some societies and climate action is being blamed and utilised as the scapegoat for that divide, and it is not. The reason that divide is happening is because a huge number of people feel they are being left behind and there is a focus on the big players - the big corporates and businesses - and they are the ones benefiting from high energy prices and any of the climate measures. A lot of people are feeling very left behind. When they go to blame someone or point the finger because they cannot afford electricity or food or there is no bus to bring them to work, unfortunately we have elements, very bad actors in some areas, who will point to climate change and say it is the reason, that it is a made-up issue and Government is using it to essentially leave them behind. Climate action is not just about the environment or living more sustainably; there is such an important element of social cohesion that needs to be dealt with. That is why we have all of those discussions about just transition and the importance of that. That language has fallen off the table and I am sort of happy about it to be honest, because most ordinary people have no idea what just transition is. Ultimately, when the Government is doing its policies it needs to make sure people are not being left behind.  If we use, for example, how people are experiencing and being impacted by the proliferation of data centres, in their real lives the way people are being impacted is through pricing. People have seen their electricity prices go up. There are a whole lot of other elements to it as well; I understand that. However, data centres are absolutely increasing prices. The demand placed on our electricity grid on the markets is pushing up prices. We heard this as recently as last week, when Friends of the Environment gave a presentation with a really in-depth analysis that showed that household bills have gone up by \u20ac360, primarily in the time between 2022 and 2024. That was purely based on the additional demand put on by data centres.  We also have the costs of keeping our grid updated and robust because, obviously, a number of years ago there were major issues with grid security. We were looking at the potential for blackouts and brownouts. As a result, we had to spend a lot of money bringing in temporary generators. That was primarily because we saw this huge increase in data centres and our grid was not able to cope. The PR6 at the ESB \u2013 the \u20ac18 billion or \u20ac19 billion that has been put into the grid by the ESB \u2013 is not to support the grid for future data centre development; it is only to support and keep the grid robust for existing data centre development. Anything additional we put on it is going to cause problems.  Professor Hannah Daly, a professor in sustainable energy at UCC, was in Leinster House last week and she has written a blog post on data centres and the risks. I do not know if the Minister of State has read it, but I would certainly advise her to take a look at it. Particularly in her role, it will be really important that she get independent advice in relation to the impact. Professor Daly states the CRU estimates there is potentially 5.8 GW to come on stream. She goes through all the risks. It is quite stark from both cost and demand perspectives.  The motion states 80% of the energy will have to be from renewable sources, but there is six years before that has to be hit. Even the fact that 20% does not have to be from renewable sources is crazy when we are trying to move away from fossil fuels. If a target is to be in place, it should be 100%. There are data centres currently operating now which are claiming they are essentially 100% renewable because they are buying credits from Germany in relation to biomethane. There are all of these loops built into this system which will cause us problems down the road. There will be difficulties with it.  In 2021, the Social Democrats asked for a moratorium on data centres. We called for one because we said it is really important to get our facts right on this. We need to know how many we can have and at what cost. How many can we afford from price, energy demand and climate perspectives? I so wish the previous Government had taken the opportunity to pause back in 2021. If it had done so, we would be in a much better position now. If a tree was not planted 20 years ago, the next best time to plant it is now. I ask the Minister of State to take a really close look at this now and do the analysis. This is a risk we cannot afford to take. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  I congratulate the Minister of State. We need to cut through the AI hype. I talk a lot about artificial intelligence in this Chamber and at committee meetings. It is often about the policy of its use, its governance and so on, but it is absolutely vital that we also look at the infrastructure that props up this technology.  Time and again, the conversations around regulation, energy and infrastructure are muddied by a lack of understanding of what AI is and the attempts of AI companies to associate energy-guzzling generative AI, which by and large has little social benefit, with positive AI technology such as weather prediction. This is a clear effort to cause confusion and to imply that all data centres are there for positive advancements when we know that the vast majority of these centres have nothing to do with science or social uses but are there for private companies generating slop and profit on the Internet. That is why these \"gotcha\" arguments of, \"Well don't you use email? Don't you use websites?\" do not wash because email and web hosting processing demands pale in comparison to the behemoth of generative AI data centres. It was put best by Professor Hannah Daly at the Oireachtas Committee on Artificial Intelligence last week when she said that the question is whether unregulated growth of that industry follows logically from the fact we need it and that the rapid and unmitigated growth of data centres has made the United Nations brand Ireland a cautionary tale.  How is it actually benefiting the average citizen? I do not see a return on investment on this permissive strategy - not in the form of a just transition, not in the form of communities benefiting and not in terms of jobs. The recent KPMG report commissioned by the Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment exposed this when, in trying to get creative with the numbers, it went too far. The dogs on the street know that 870,000 is not a credible figure of jobs attributable to data centres despite what that report tried to claim. In doing so, it highlighted the problem we face when it comes to the regulation of big tech for the common good, which is that these decisions are led totally by the Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment and that our policy on whether tech practices or tech infrastructure are good for society lacks any consideration or nuance beyond \"what the industry wants, we must provide\". That is not an industrial policy. That is the result of a complete lack of backbone or consideration of what the needs of our industry, communities, infrastructure and economy actually are.  We are facing a situation where our energy use is increasing at a time when it should be decreasing. That cautionary tale told about Ireland is one where we are failing to displace fossil fuels as a source of energy because all of our new renewable energy is being eaten up by an ever-hungrier network of data centres. If we do not drastically change course, it will cost us and our children their future. We need a moratorium on data centre expansion. We cannot continue to expand our energy use and think there will be no consequences. We do not have a planet B. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruth Coppinger  If ever there was a Government policy that was just so reckless and servile, it is this policy of welcoming and allowing data centres at the cost of our environment but also now at the cost of the pockets of ordinary working-class people. For the second month in a row, Ireland has the highest electricity prices in Europe. They are 52% higher than the European average. The average household in the country is paying around \u20ac400 a year more for its electricity compared with the EU average and, incredibly, it pays twice as much per unit of electricity compared with some of the big data centres and the big companies.  Plans for data centre expansion would see data centres use the same amount of power as every other electricity user in the country combined. They are already using up 22% of all electricity in the country, which is the highest figure in the world. Ireland is now the warning - the bogey man for other countries - in international publications of what not to do. We hear that \u20ac400 more a year is being paid for electricity. A total of \u20ac360 of that, on average, is estimated to be down to high data centre energy demand. Lower-income households - ordinary working-class people and single parents - are the victims of this because they pay more for energy than other people do. Ireland in particular has been singled out by the UN.  I previously raised the Minister for Climate, Energy and Environment's complete fixation on AI. Apart from the social issues of AI making people less critical and more stupid and causing problems academically, the impact on the environment is massive and it is not worth it. Any attempt to use renewables now is eaten up by the corollary of data centre usage. Ireland will significantly go past its greenhouse gas emission targets. We now have to say that we must stop any more data centres being established but there should also be a levy. These data centres need to be taxed to the hilt to pay for the damage they are doing. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  Momentum is growing against data centres and the Government's slavish adherence to the policy on demands of big tech because more and more people are seeing the reality of the threats data centres pose to our environment, our energy supply and the cost of living. In our alternative budget last year, People Before Profit proposed a \u20ac1 billion energy levy on data centres to fund a \u20ac500 universal electricity credit. The effect would be to charge data centres roughly the same amount for electricity as households pay. At the moment, they pay half as much per unit as households do.  On top of that, data centres are driving up electricity prices for everybody by pushing the system into peak rates more often through their constant insatiable demand for energy. Data centres are the main reason that standing charges are being increased to fund investment in the grid, which they have completely maxed out in the greater Dublin area. The consequence is that housing developments are being stalled because they cannot connect to the grid, Dublin Bus has not been able to charge new electric buses for up to three years and vital public transport projects like DART+, MetroLink and Luas are being delayed as a consequence. The ESB has warned that MetroLink construction and further electrification of Dublin Bus will have to rely on \"timed electricity connections\" to avoid winter peak loads. A briefing note prepared for the Government's major project governance oversight group in April 2025 warned that there was insufficient power in the ESB network to support DART+. Then we hear that funding for DART+ South West and Luas Finglas has been delayed until 2030. It does not take a genius to figure out why. There is no point in building the system if we cannot power it because data centres are using up all of the electricity. It is embarrassing enough for the Government not to be able to charge a few hundred buses but entire train and Luas lines would expose the Government's incompetence completely.  At a meeting last week of the Oireachtas Committee on Artificial Intelligence, we heard that we have no chance of achieving our emissions target because of Government policy to allow unfettered expansion of data centres as long as they build their own power plants. This means privatising our electricity supply, enabling big tech to use fossil fuels indefinitely to power them and smashing through our climate targets. Despite the Government's bluster and despite the nonsense about almost 900,000 jobs, listening to the industry itself, it is clear that it employs about 1,800 people in this country. A giant empty box is coming for your job and the Government calls it progress. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Roderic O'Gorman  I thank the Labour Party for bringing forward this important and timely motion. Global digital transformation and accelerated AI technology adoption are driving a rapid expansion of data centres in Ireland. While data centres are one part of the infrastructure for business operations, they pose significant social and environmental concerns. Ireland's current power grid cannot support the energy demands that data centres require. We know that they use up a tremendous amount of energy, currently at 22% of Ireland's electricity. Our current available renewable capacity cannot meet this demand, which is only going to result in higher prices for consumers. It is described as the data centre effect. The average household paid \u20ac360 extra in additional energy costs between 2015 and 2023 due to the pressure that data centres are exerting on the grid. It is estimated that consumers could pay up to \u20ac644 extra between 2025 and 2034 if data centres continue to expand at this rate.  The current solution to reduce grid strain is to use dispatchable generation or back-up generators. These generators are often gas-powered, release emissions and, therefore, undermine our climate goals. It is most likely that there will be even more reliance on these generators in the future as data centre infrastructure continues to outpace renewable infrastructure. In 2022, my colleague Eamon Ryan introduced the Government's statement on the role of data centres and the result of this was that there were no new data centre connections to the grid after that intervention. Yet now, through the large energy user action plan, the Government is actively trying to source more AI data centres in our country. On 2 June, just a few weeks ago, a 600 acre data centre was granted planning permission by Westmeath County Council. That data centre is expected to rely primarily on gas-powered solid oxide fuel cells and solar power.  The data centre, and this is from its own application, is expected to omit 493,0000 tonnes of CO2 per annum, again actively undermining our climate goals. As well as the energy concerns, there is also deep concern about the amount of water used. Right now, it is about 1.3% of Uisce \u00c9ireann's annual water but that is only set to grow. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Seamus Healy  I welcome and support this motion and fully support the points made previously by my Independent and Parties Technical Group colleagues. I want to take the opportunity to highlight a number of retrofit and insulation issues affecting middle and low income families across the country. The warmer homes scheme available to families in receipt of fuel allowance is an excellent scheme in itself but it is underfunded and under-resourced. This results in a huge backlog of applications, with it to increase due to more families qualifying for key social welfare payments which underpin the scheme. Currently, it takes two years to complete a retrofit under the scheme. It takes two visits and 14 months to do the survey and it takes a further ten to 12 months to have the works commenced and completed. That timescale is obviously unacceptable and the scheme needs to be resourced and funded to ensure retrofitting is completed in at least 12 months.  In regard to the retrofitting of local authority council houses, the National Oversight and Audit Commission has confirmed the target to retrofit 36,500 social housing units to B2 standard by 2030 will not be met, and not by a long shot. The target is low anyway and lacks ambition but the report states that even this low target is compromised by insufficient financial resources and by the operation of the scheme on an annual rather than multi-annual basis.  The third issue is the lack of access by middle income families to various energy efficiency schemes. Representatives from the SEAI recently told the Oireachtas climate committee that cash upfront is a serious issue for middle income families, who have neither excess cash nor access to cash to avail of these schemes. After Government grants, a retrofit can cost up to \u20ac43,000 per house. This is leading to a green divide, where homes in affluent areas have access to the schemes as they have moneys and funds available for these upfront costs. I urge the Minister to take these issues on board and to act on them urgently as they are affecting families right across the country. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Collins  There is one point in this motion that nobody in this House can dispute. Irish families and small businesses are being crippled by electricity costs and if anyone doubts the scale of that crisis, they only need to look at the figures. At the end of last year, nearly 320,000 households in this country were behind on their electricity bills. That is roughly one in seven homes struggling to keep up. The average amount owed is around \u20ac466 per household. That has gone to over \u20ac500 now and is rising. That is the reality facing people - not theory and not projections. What happened? At the same time the Government removed electricity credits from the most recent budget, credits that had already been scaled back year after year.  People will remember that in budget 2023, households received \u20ac600 in electricity credits. That dropped to \u20ac450 the following year and then to \u20ac250 in budget 2025, paid in two instalments. This year, there was nothing. At the very moment when families are under the most pressure, support has been taken away. It is no surprise arrears have surged. Our energy system is under serious pressure. Our grid is stretched. Our reliance on gas remains far too high and the delivery of offshore wind and renewables has been far too slow.  That is not the fault of ordinary people. That is a failure of Government planning and delivery over many years. We hear a lot in this House about climate being blamed for flooding, and yes weather patterns are changing and we accept that. However, before we blame everything on climate, we need to look at what is happening on the ground. We have walked away from the basics. The ditches are blocked, the drains are choked and the rivers and waterways are all not being maintained any more. Years ago, this work was done as a matter of routine and it made a difference. Now people are tied up in red tape. They are afraid to clean a ditch or clear a drain and the result is simple; water has nowhere to go. When water has nowhere to go, it floods homes, farms and roadways. Yes, we can talk about climate but let us talk about common sense. Start by clearing the ditches, maintaining the channels and doing the basic work we know prevents flooding because until we do that, we are only dealing with half the problem.  Independent Ireland would be slow to support a blanket moratorium on data centres. That approach risks jobs, undermines investment and sends out a damaging signal that Ireland is closed for business. Data centres are part of the modern economy. They bring employment, tax revenue and opportunity, particularly to regional Ireland. The problem is not growth; the problem is that the infrastructure has not kept pace. Nowhere is that clearer than in our approach to EVs. We are telling people they must transition. We are setting targets and deadlines but the reality on the ground is that the system is simply not ready. The public EV charging infrastructure in this country is not fit for purpose; it is far from it. It is too complicated. There are too many providers, too many apps and too many accounts. People are expected to download app after app just to charge their car. When they finally arrive at a charging point, it is out of service, blocked or so slow it is practically useless. That is happening every day across the country. Then we ask why people are reluctant to make the switch. If you want people to move to electric vehicles, the system must work and it must be simple. Anyone should be able to pull up, plug in, tap their debit or credit card and charge their car. It should be as simple as buying fuel with no apps, no confusion and no barrier. As a matter of fact, the only place I have been told about in Ireland - there probably are more but people have checked it out fairly well - is in Schull in Jeremy Brosnan's Centra. You drive up, plug in the car, tap your debit card and the car gets charged. It is simple and all people want. They do not want complications. We are nowhere near that standard around the rest of Ireland.  There is also a rural reality here that cannot be ignored. In many parts of rural Ireland, there are simply not enough charging points, if any at all. People are being asked to change but without the infrastructure to support them. That is not a fair ask. A lot of people, particularly older people or those not comfortable with technology, are completely turned off by the system as it stands. It is a major barrier to progress.  The same disconnect applies when we talk about solar energy. Families are being told and encouraged to install solar panel and want to do so but the numbers simply do not stack up. For a typical household to install a system that would truly meet all their needs, powering their home and perhaps an electric car, they are looking at a cost of \u20ac20,000. What is the grant? It is \u20ac1,800. It is probably the lowest in Europe, the UK and Scotland. That is not an incentive. It is nowhere near enough. It does not bridge the gap for ordinary families.  Again, the issue is not willingness. The issue is that supports do not match reality. If we had invested properly in grid infrastructure, in renewables and in practical supports, we would not be in this position today. Instead of shutting down investment through moratoriums, we should be building capacity. We also have serious concerns about the proposals for new levies on data centres. We know how this works. Costs introduced in one part of the system often end up being passed on elsewhere. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Lawless  Rural Ireland is bearing the brunt of the country's energy policy and getting very little in return. In Mayo and right across the west of Ireland, planning applications for huge wind turbines are landing at massive rates. These structures are not small. Indeed, they are bigger than the Dublin Spire, Big Ben and the Statue of Liberty. Community consultation is simply inadequate. In some cases, it is not being done properly at all and it is restrictive in terms of who can access or engage with developers. These are the communities who are responsible. These are the communities who will live with these turbines for decades to come. The truth is that the Government has resisted Aont\u00fa's calls for planning guidelines. The guidelines are 20 years out of date. The Minister knows this.  Turbines are being situated dangerously close to families and their homes and it is unacceptable. It is unacceptable at a time when applications are coming at such a significant rate. Right across Mayo, planning applications are being submitted. Meanwhile, the Minister is sitting on the guidelines that are 20 years out of date. It is unacceptable. We have called for updated guidelines and, indeed, many other parties have called for them. It is only fair. The Minister should provide updated guidelines for families in relation to wind turbines.  Meanwhile, households right across Ireland are paying the highest electricity costs in Europe. More than 500,000 energy bills are now in arrears and data centres are the primary driver of this. They are causing an inflationary aspect to household bills.  The bigger issue in relation to all of this is that the EPA has told us in black and white that even if all of the planned measures are delivered, Ireland will achieve a reduction of 23% of greenhouse gas emissions by 2030 and not the target of 51%. The target is out of reach and has been for a number of years. Under the EU's effort-sharing regulation, that gap comes with significant fines. I have raised a number of times on the floor of the D\u00e1il that these are fines the Minister simply ignores. The Irish Fiscal Advisory Council and the Climate Change Advisory Council have outlined that we are going to face fines of somewhere in the region of \u20ac6 billion to \u20ac26 billion. This has been confirmed the Comptroller and Auditor General. The Minister can smile but I have asked him what his plan is and he has no plan to address this and no plan to provide protection for rural communities. It is simply unacceptable. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Nicholas Gogarty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Nicholas Gogarty  In its countermotion the Government mentions that tit is close to meeting the first carbon budget, according to EPA projections. There are several issues raised, including that any emissions that exceed this budget have to be deducted from the second budget. There is also the fact that, as others have mentioned, the five-year budget will not be anywhere near being reached. It will be exceeded in all major sectors, tracking well above the legal limits by 2030 targets. It will be at just half of the required 51% national reduction target going past 2030. This is absolutely inadequate. We are the laggards of Europe.  We are trying to push data centres. We will have huge revenue potential down the line from data centres. We are an ideal location but only if we have surplus capacity. As I have said in multiple debates, we are not investing in getting the offshore wind we already have up and running, we are not investing in tidal energy, and we are not investing in solar energy or wave technology as countries such as Denmark are. We could be leaders. We could have the deep-sea ports preplanned. We could be exporting twice our own requirements and have all of this extra spare capacity, through converted hydrogen and battery storage, to operate the data centres and make good revenue to pay for a good social system and a good education system in this country. We have to put the medium-term investment in now. We have to put our surplus into a short-term, what I would call wartime, effort. We have to ramp up massively over the next ten years. It will cost us money and we may even have to borrow money but the returns would be infinitesimal and we have to do it. Otherwise we will not meet our climate change targets and we will put our people in jeopardy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Heneghan  I want to be clear from the outset that I agree with the sentiment of what the Labour Party is trying to do and I believe the frustration is real. The Minister is well aware that energy is one of my key priorities. Irish families pay too much and it is very clear that data centres are consuming an ever-increasing share of our electricity. These are facts and they do deserve to be addressed. However, I will not support the motion and there are several reasons for this. The moratorium on data centres would cost Irish jobs and the development of our country. These are real jobs, real wages and real families in my area. We cannot simultaneously say we care about the cost of living but then vote to put people's jobs at risk.  Deputies in favour of the motion really need to tell their constituents that they are against section 7 of the Critical Infrastructure Bill. What would happen to the hospital in their ward, the housing development that needs a wastewater connection and the water treatment plant that every home and growing town needs? Without section 7, every one of these will be exposed to legal challenges, which we are all aware have cost the State billions. The existing legislation is consistent with the climate energy pact because the EU climate law still applies in full and the environmental impact assessment directive still applies. What section 7 does is remove the legal uncertainty. Removing section 7 will not help the climate but it will help lawyers, which I know some Deputies may have been in a previous life.  The problem is not that data centres are here but that they are running on the wrong energy. Today I will introduce a Bill that is trying to fix this, and I welcome the Minister's engagement on it. It would give data centres, SMEs and community energy the ability to use renewable energy more easily. I will welcome the development and progression of the Bill. While we are talking about the cost of living, thousands of apartment dwellers are waiting for solar plug-in to be legalised. I know there is an ISO standard that needs to be removed. Will the Minister do a pilot scheme for new-build social and affordable housing, whereby solar plug-in can be installed by Dublin City Council and Fingal County Council, in conjunction with an inverter and battery, and save people money immediately? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Healy-Rae  This motion is mad. It states that D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann recognises that the Government will further increase carbon emissions by lifting the Dublin Airport cap, promoting unsustainable housing and economic development and by no longer prioritising public transport and active travel investment over road construction. The message must go out loud and clear from here today that the Labour Party is against tourism and economic development, it is against house building and it is against the construction of roads. This is a very clear message by the Labour Party here in the motion.  Targets underpinned by the climate action Bill, which 129 TDs across all parties voted for, are wholly unachievable and always were. The people paying the price for unachievable targets are not politicians in Dublin but farmers, families with two cars who are working hard, small business owners and rural communities who have no alternatives. The Government is removing the cap for Dublin Airport. What will this do? It will help us an awful lot. It will bring more people into the country. It will bring economic development here. When I see the Minister prioritising road safety, saving lives by spending money on roads and infrastructure, I welcome it. I see the Government targeting housing and then a motion like this comes along trying to undermine this type of work. That is why I say the motion is mad and makes no sense. Again, let the message go out clearly that the Labour Party is against tourism and economic development, it is against house building and it is against the construction of roads. This makes absolutely no sense to me or to the people from Kerry whom I represent, whom I want to continue to fight for, argue for and be there to support. What the Labour Party is trying to do in undermining the work that is being carried out is absolutely crazy and insane and I do not agree with it. I certainly will not support it in any shape or fashion whatsoever. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Duncan Smith","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Duncan-Smith.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Duncan-Smith.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Duncan Smith  I just want to say that the Member did not speak to our motion. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mattie McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mattie McGrath  I am glad to be able to speak on the motion today. I know the Minister is walking a tightrope and it is very difficult to get the proper balance. We have been waiting for the wind energy guidelines for 21 years. Fine Gael promised two elections ago that we would have them in 12 months. Councils are at a loss. It is the same with the solar situation. The best of land in the country is being taken over by solar. With regard to data centres, the United Nations, which I do not often pay a lot of attention to, is even issuing a cautionary tale about us in Ireland for allowing data centre growth to run far ahead of our energy and water capacity. When the UN is warning us, something must be amiss. We need to cut our cloth according to our measure.  I am not opposed per se to data centres or any other development. However, I am against what is going on with the huge amount of electricity they use and the great need they have for water to cool their systems and everything else. The proposed Shannon pipeline is like a runaway train. It will be a second children's hospital. It is to bring water to Dublin when there are plenty of aquifers and water in the vicinity of Dublin without having this mad project. I call it madness. It will do huge ecological damage to the mid-west. Uisce \u00c9ireann has gone off without planning and without any licence from the EPA or anybody else and has spent a fortune compensating farmers and paying them 25% upfront. Does Uisce \u00c9ireann have some inner contact line whereby it gets the nod to go ahead and do this and to hell with planning, An Coimisi\u00fan Plean\u00e1la and anything else and it can do this and start spending money? It is out of control completely.  As I said with regard to data centres, people are trying to heat their homes, the cost of living is going up and data centres are having an inordinate impact. Most of them are in the capital city, which is bursting at the seams. We need more balanced regional development. Several speakers referred during the motion to the home support scheme for ordinary families to try to make savings on their energy and do something for the climate and have retrofits in a timely fashion so they can avail of them.  No families have \u20ac45,000 in their back pockets that they can dish out to pay for these retrofits, so there is a lot to do. I know it is a hard balancing act, and the Minister is doing his best, but we have to get a better balance and listen when people like the United Nations tell us that capacity here is all wrong and we have too many eggs in one basket. We must try to redress that and have more balanced regional development as well. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Danny Healy-Rae  I am glad to get the opportunity to talk on this topic, even though I have only a couple of minutes. I could talk for a whole day about it. I do not agree with many people here. The climate is changing but the climate has always changed. It is not man-made. We are not causing it here on this Earth. The climate changed back over the centuries, and those are the facts. History will show that to us at different times. We had periods of severe cold and severe rain. A famine in the 1740s was caused by two years of incessant rain, when one third of our population and most of our cattle and sheep died. If we all walked off the island of Ireland today, it would only mean a difference of 0.13% of 1% in the whole worldwide context. That is another fact. With all these ideas that the Government has about the climate, I honestly say that no human being here can have any effect in changing the climate and never will.  We have the highest ESB charges now simply because we are told we cannot buy turf or burn fossil fuels, yet Germany has opened two new coalmines. It is in Europe as well. I wonder what the Minister will say about that.  In 2019, there was a vote here on the targets for 2030. I believe I was the only TD who voted against those targets at that time because I knew then, as I know now, what it would mean to hard-working people. It would put pressure on them financially. This is what the Government is trying to do now in every sector because of climate change. Massive amounts of taxpayers' money are being spent to address this issue, but it will fail because it is not possible to change the weather. No matter what we do here, we do not have the power to change the weather. We cannot do lesser things or things closer to home or to the needs of the people. We cannot achieve those things.  I will just mention one thing. We do not have enough houses for the number of people coming into the country and the way our population is exploding. Then there is this carbon tax. People are being charged massive amounts of carbon tax. Farmers should be completely exempt because they are sequestering more carbon than they are emitting. Growing grass sequesters carbon. They are planting hedges and trees, and they are sequestering more carbon. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Darren O'Rourke)  Go raibh maith agat. I thank an Teachta. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Danny Healy-Rae  They are still being charged carbon tax. They are using AdBlue. They are doing everything possible and yet the Government is charging them carbon tax. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Climate, Energy and the Environment (Deputy Darragh O'Brien)  I thank the Labour Party for tabling this motion, and I will deal with elements of it in my response.  I have been struck by many of the responses, many of which have been constructive and well-meaning. Others have not been. Turning specifically to Deputy Danny Healy-Rae, climate change is real and is happening now. The science is indisputable and climate action is critically important to counter climate change. Climate action is also important because it affords us great opportunities here. There are great opportunities in the context of climate action in relation to new technologies for the electrification of our country, which will make us more competitive and reduce our dependence on fossil fuels. Even if one were to argue, therefore, which I never would, that fossil fuels do not impact the climate, which they do, Ireland is still too dependent on imports of fossil fuels. To state the very obvious, we are an island nation. We have low interconnection rates. We import 80% of our gas from our nearest neighbour. We produce the other 20%. What do we need to do? We need to accelerate the deployment of renewables. I will return to this aspect later in my remarks.  We have tabled a countermotion. I do not do that lightly, but there are elements in the Labour Party motion that I profoundly disagree with. It is interesting that things like the airport cap were thrown into this debate. As someone who represents an airport constituency, I remember a time when the Labour Party was a supporter of airport workers. Even in advance of the debate on the Dublin Airport (passenger capacity) Bill 2026, it is clear that this is not a side that the Labour Party is taking any more, which is regrettable. If I take the example of the airport, and I will move on to data centres and ICT in a moment, 130,000 direct and indirect jobs derive very good incomes from Dublin Airport alone. We are growing Shannon, Cork and Ireland West airports as well, so it is not just one instead of the other. I do not think anyone can argue that an 18-year-old planning condition is appropriate and serves Ireland well right now. I agree with much of what Deputy Michael Healy-Rae said in that regard. I ask people to reflect on this issue. It does not set aside environmental considerations either. That is purely incorrect in the motion. I ask people to look at the legislation. An Coimisi\u00fan Plean\u00e1la will be the organisation that evaluates the environmental assessments and not me as the Minister. This change needs to happen if we are serious about growth in jobs and protecting our connectivity and competitiveness. This needs to happen, and I would warn against a move towards populism in that regard.  On energy pricing, I was at the Energy Ireland conference earlier, so the Minister of State, Deputy Ardagh, took the first half of the debate but I listened to it on the way back. Many Deputies threw out this figure of there being 500,000 households in energy arrears. That is not correct. What was reported on RT\u00c9 was not correct, and it took it quite a while to even correct it. The Commission for Regulation of Utilities actually called that out. Arrears are too high and energy prices are too high, and we need to get them down. I do not dispute that at all. All that has been done to get that 500,000 figure, though, is adding the figures for gas arrears to those for electricity arrears. Unfortunately, many households are across both, so saying 500,000 households are in arrears is just not true, and the record should be corrected on this. It should have been corrected on our national broadcaster but it was not because it did not suit its narrative. Everyone in arrears is counted from the first day, from day one when a bill is not paid. When we look at the figures for those who have been 90 days in arrears, and we do need to help people to get out of that situation, we are looking at about 8% of electricity customers, which amounts to 184,000 households. It is still too high, absolutely, but let us deal with the facts and not go down that route of effectively looking at the bigger figure because it will get more prominence.  It is good that we are having a discussion, particularly on data centres and ICT. It is a pity Deputies Paul Murphy and Coppinger are not here. They are always giving very constructive remarks here in the Chamber. They opposed the climate Act, by the way, which has been able to ensure that Ireland is moving towards meeting those climate obligations that we have.  On data centres, Ireland is not a large industrial nation. We do not make cars or military equipment and do not have large industrial companies. We do, however, have a substantial ICT sector employing just short of 200,000 people. It is around 185,000 people. The figure is 19,000 people in the data centres, but they support all those other jobs at the leading edge of technology. Many of our young people are the best in the world at this. We need an infrastructure that supports that, and data centres are part of that. When people say 22% of our energy is used by data centres, that is correct. If we went to Germany, however, we could ask how much energy there is used for large industrial developments, including car manufacturing and all those various things. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ciar\u00e1n Ahern","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ciar\u00e1n Ahern  How many jobs are attached to it? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darragh O'Brien  That is why we brought forward the large energy user action plan and the decision of CRU in relation to large energy users. It is a plan-led approach going forward. Any new data centre connections will have to be on the basis of using 80% renewables - new renewables, not existing renewables. This idea that existing renewables will be used up is not correct. We need that plan-led approach. I support the ICT sector, new jobs and new technologies. It is good for us as a country and a small, open economy. We cannot be complacent about that. The idea that we would pull the shutters down again on this area is not correct, but it has to be done in a planned way. I agree with many contributors from the Opposition who have said this. The question now is how we can continue to protect families and businesses in the short term.  Retrofitting is critical. Many people, including Deputy Healy, were talking about middle-income families being able to access grants. That is why I have specifically brought forward the retrofitting passport for households and broken down the grants such that we are not just doing deep retrofits but are allowing for the inclusion of windows and doors, attic insulation, wall cavity insulation and all those different things, including solar at scale as well. If we go back to when we started retrofitting, about 268,000 homes across the country have now been retrofitted to different degrees.  That protects them to a large degree against future price shocks, reduces their energy usage, reduces their emissions and makes them warmer and more efficient. We need to accelerate that. In the first quarter of this year, 12,000 homes were upgraded under the scheme, including 1,500 under the warmer homes scheme for those at risk of energy poverty. Since the formation of this Government, 70,000 homes have been retrofitted.  The purpose of the change in the grants is to ensure that households can access them. We have seen an absolutely incredible response, with over 50,000 applications in the first four months of this year, including significant applications for solar. We want to do more with regard to batteries. That is the position on households.  Five thousand businesses have been retrofitted. Of course, we can do more, but we are targeting 73,000 households to be retrofitted this year. It will be the largest number done in any given year. We are actually building up a really good domestic sector and domestic expertise, with new Irish companies, particularly in our rural areas. This really speaks to regional development.  What are we doing at a national level regarding our grid and energy? We have now reached a really significant figure of 8 GW of renewable energy integrated into our system. Yes, of course we need to do more. One gigawatt powers about 500,000 homes. That is what we are talking about. Our wind capacity has doubled in ten years. We have added 5 GW of renewables in just a ten-year period. The figure for solar will probably be 3 GW by the end of this year alone, with over 1 GW from rooftop solar. We want to continue to support households in this regard.  I am considering measures with regard to domestic batteries. I have asked the ESB to examine the whole area of balcony or plug-in solar, as it is called. These are things that are critically needed.  What is also critically needed is investment in our grid. For argument's sake, I will use the example of a capital project that should have been completed already and that needs to be completed without delay, namely, the North-South interconnector. There have been four reviews of the interconnector, including in respect of whether it should be underground or overground. The reviews are done now. There are no more and it needs to happen. Three local authorities need to discharge the planning consents and we need to get building it. I returned from a conference this morning with my colleague in the North, Caoimhe Archibald. The Executive in the North is in absolute agreement on this as well. This one piece of infrastructure will do more for the resilience of our electricity grid than any other project, and that needs to start. I expect cross-party support, from both the Government and Opposition, to commence work on this and to deliver the project by 2031, which is still exacting. That will deliver affordability.  On offshore wind, the target was 5 GW by 2030, as Deputy Gogarty mentioned. There have been planning consent delays all the way through. We hope to have positive planning decisions on two projects this year. My target is to get them to construction this year. That would be a game-changer for us. I absolutely agree in this regard. In the meantime, we need more onshore wind and more onshore solar.  To answer the questions some Deputies have raised about the wind energy guidelines, the revised guidelines will be published and made available this year. I get the point in that regard. The revised guidelines will be produced this year through the work I am doing with the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Browne.  I thank Labour Party colleagues for the motion. This has been a decent debate. I will not be accepting the motion but I look forward to continuing to work with the Deputies on a constructive basis. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy George Lawlor  Listening to the Minister's comments about the arrears issue, I noted he turned it into a maths equation. I cannot believe how disconnected he is from the reality on the ground. If he needs another reminder, we had fuel protests some time ago. The entire nation was convulsed. Even the former Minister of State Deputy Michael Healy-Rae was so convulsed by it that he stood up and said he had no confidence in the leadership of the Government. He went out and held his fist up in support of the protesters. This morning, of course, he is back in love with the Government as he tries to get himself back into some sort of ministerial role.  I am very glad to support the Labour Party motion, my party's motion, because it speaks the truth that can no longer be ignored. Of course, data centres have a crucial role to play in much of the economic development of this country, but there is no use having them if, in a few years' time, people will go home from working in companies that have benefited from them and there is no electricity to turn their lights on. This has happened in other parts of the world. We should learn from the experience of other areas.  The evidence on the climate is stark. Last month, temperatures in Ireland in May exceeded 30\u00b0C. If that is not an indication of climate change, what is? I do not know what weather they have in Kerry, but Deputy Danny Healy-Rae seems to have no confidence whatsoever that climate change is taking place. He should say that to those in places like Enniscorthy and other parts of the country that are decimated almost year in, year out as a result of it.  A recent UN report described Ireland as a cautionary tale for the environmental impact of data centres. That should alarm every single Member of this House. We now have over 22% of our electricity consumed by data centres, and this is projected to rise to 30% by 2030, and potentially to an unbelievable 55% if growth continues unchecked. That would mean data centres would be using more electricity than every home, farm, small business, hospital and school in the country combined.  The Minister spoke about retrofitting. Retrofitting would be a most welcome addition to every home in the country. However, when you ask people to come up with \u20ac30,000, \u20ac40,000 or \u20ac50,000 in matching funding, you might as well be asking them for \u20ac1 million. They just do not have it. It is too expensive for ordinary decent working people to invest in. They do not have the money. One of the things I have proposed in the past is a fair deal-type scheme for retrofitting, whereby the Government would invest to ensure the people have access. There is no use having a great scheme if people cannot access it. There is a great scheme, but you have to have tens of thousands of euro in addition to the grant.  The Government's own policies are making the situation worse. The CRU's large energy user connection policy, the private wires legislation and the proposed LNG terminal all point in the same direction: more fossil fuels. The Climate Change Advisory Council has already warned that all new renewable energy is being swallowed up by new data centre demand. Where there are vast solar farms, and there is one in Gusserane in Wexford, people have no real problem; however, they do have a problem in a very rural area where 100 battery energy storage system, BESS, batteries are being installed, each the size of a container. We have to look into this again. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marie Sherlock","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Marie Sherlock  I thank my colleague Deputy Ahern for introducing this really important and timely motion. It is frankly shambolic that, more than six months into 2026, we still have yet to see a national climate action plan. That speaks volumes about this Government and its commitment to climate mitigation in this country. Instead of a Government prioritising clean, cheap energy for the many, we have had to introduce this motion because of the huge drain that data centres represent to our grid at this point, with real-world consequences for so many households across the country. It is absolutely shambolic that the vast majority of the renewable resources being developed are going towards data centres as opposed to reducing bills and making a meaningful impact on the utility bills of households across the country.  Some of us here accept that there is a role in many economies for data centres. However, when one notes that data centres account for 22% of our energy, and when the Minister for enterprise, Deputy Burke, talks about data centre activity being a strategic opportunity for the Irish economy to bring forward the green transition, nothing could be further from the truth. The reality is that data centres are sucking up the renewable energy generated in the Irish economy, which needs to be going to real households. We need to see a significant change in the approach of the Government. It has become the cornerstone of industrial policy. We need to see that changed for the households I deal with in Dublin Central and the 14% of low-income households that are in dire circumstances. A woman who came to me yesterday had a bill of \u20ac1,200 in the middle of May. There are thousands of others like her across the country. I hear the Minister dancing on the head of a pin about 500,000 household energy accounts that are in long-term arrears. That is what we are talking about. For the Minister to get defensive about the level of arrears in this country is simply wrong. He needs to engage regarding the level of need that exists.  We believe there needs to be a complete change with regard to how we retrofit households across this country. At the moment, those who are able to access the grants have means. The many who do not have those means week in, week out, and who are living from week to week, cannot access the grants. We need to change the whole framework of grants to ensure those in both social and private housing can collectively receive support from the SEAI to make meaningful changes to retrofit their homes and permanently lower their costs.  We feel that the Minister has his head in the clouds with regard to the true level of the issue out there in terms of the energy bills and arrears that households are dealing with. We want to see a real change in how the Government deals with the level of need out there. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ciar\u00e1n Ahern","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ciar\u00e1n Ahern  \"The Minister has his head in the cloud computing\" is what my colleague might have wanted to say. I thank him for gracing us with his presence for the second half of this debate. It was disappointing that neither he nor the two Ministers of State from the Department were able to turn up for the first half. If nothing else, I am pleased that we have helped to reunite the Healy-Rae brothers over their joint passion for climate denial. It was lovely to see that collectivity back in the House. Do not say the Labour Party never did anything for you, lads. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Danny Healy-Rae  You will not change the weather. It would be too late for that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ciar\u00e1n Ahern","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ciar\u00e1n Ahern  We have today been accused of being anti-growth, anti-jobs and even populist in what we are talking about, but Deputies are missing the point. We are legitimately questioning the Government's industrial strategy. Even Deputy Michael Collins accepted that we were relying too much on imported oil and gas. The Government policies, promoted by the Minister, are leading to more oil and gas dependence and undermining any chance we have of energy security, which the Government seems to say is so important. Data centres, car dependence, lifting the Dublin Airport cap and all those measures that the Government is taking are going to lead to increased use of fossil fuels. How is the Government going to square that circle? How is the Government going to continue to grow the economy, which we all want to see, while meeting our legally binding climate, biodiversity and decarbonisation targets?  We are not alone in questioning the continued roll-out of data centres. Just last week, the EU Commissioner for the environment was before the climate committee. She expressed her reservations about the massive amount of water that was going through data centres. She is trying to avoid a water crisis. Communities in the US, including in Pennsylvania and other places, are rising up against huge data centres being built there. Paschal Donohoe, our former finance Minister, in his new role has expressed concerns about the proliferation of data centres across the Continent. How many data centres are enough for this Government? How much are they going to be allowed to add to households' bills.  We are calling for a pause. We are calling for fairness for households and families. We are calling for the Minister to show us his homework on this issue. The Government says it can do it all, so I ask it to show us the climate action plan. In the remarks prepared earlier, we were told that a public consultation on this year's climate action plan was only being opened this week. It is going to be open for another two months. At the time we are debating the budget for 2027, we are only going to be seeing for the first time the climate action plan for this year. That shows us what the Government's priorities are. I ask the Minister to stop undermining the climate Act, bring us the Government's climate action plan and support the Labour Party's motion. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  The division is deferred until the weekly division time. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Data Centres, Energy Use and Climate Change: Motion [Private Members]"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_10","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Teachtaireacht \u00f3n Seanad - Message from Seanad","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_10","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Seanad \u00c9ireann has passed the Critical Infrastructure Bill 2026, without amendment. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Teachtaireacht \u00f3n Seanad - Message from Seanad"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_11","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna \u00f3 Cheannair\u00ed - Leaders' Questions","counts":{"speechCount":55,"speakerCount":11},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_11","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Holly Cairns","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Holly-Cairns.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Holly-Cairns.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Kevin Boxer Moran","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Kevin-Boxer-Moran.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Kevin-Boxer-Moran.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mary Lou McDonald  Today, the families of those killed or injured at Creeslough will bring their fight for answers to the D\u00e1il. They will be here to speak to Members later this afternoon and we will make them most welcome. Every one of us remembers that fateful Friday afternoon in October 2022. We remember the reports of an explosion at an Applegreen service station and apartments in the small Donegal village and how that shock later turned to disbelief as we learned that the explosion had claimed the lives of ten people. It took the life of five-year-old Shauna Flanagan Garwe, the youngest victim, and that of her doting father, Robert; 13-year-old James Monaghan and his mother, Catherine O'Donnell; 14-year-old Leona Harper; Jessica Gallagher; James O'Flaherty; Martin McGill; Martina Martin; and Hugh Kelly, aged 59, who was the oldest to die. It was a tragedy that spanned generations and is etched into the collective memory of the people of Donegal. Families were left heartbroken, shattered and bereft.  Both the Taoiseach and I visited Creeslough in the immediate aftermath of the explosion and I certainly will never forget the devastation. No doubt, neither will the Taoiseach. For nearly four years, these families have fought for answers, for the full truth of what happened to their loved ones and how it happened. Families are calling for the establishment of a public inquiry. The Government's response is that a public inquiry cannot be granted while the criminal investigation is ongoing, but the former Garda Commissioner was clear. He stated that it was possible to hold a public inquiry without compromising that investigation.  The families' reasons for wanting a public inquiry are very well-founded. They are concerned that the criminal investigation may not examine regulatory oversight and safety standards, that without a public inquiry, the full circumstances of the disaster may never be established, and that criminal proceedings may take years, thereby delaying answers.  It is wrong that the families had to campaign publicly simply to secure a meeting with the Minister for justice. The Minister, the House will recall, initially spurned the families' request for engagement. That caused real upset, anger and frustration. Finally, after sustained pressure, the Minister changed his mind and met the families on 9 April. Following that meeting, Darragh Mackin, the legal representative of some of the families, stated, \"The minister has now confirmed unequivocally to these families that he will consider holding an inquest with a senior judge or the senior coroner, something similar to Stardust\". Yet nearly three months later, there has been no progress and the families are left feeling like they are in limbo. That is why they bring their campaign for truth and justice to Leinster House today.  T\u00e1 freagra\u00ed tuillte ag na teaghlaigh a mara\u00edodh agus a ngorta\u00edodh a ndaoine muinteartha i bpl\u00e9ascadh an Chraoslaigh. T\u00e1 siad ag \u00e9ileamh fiosr\u00fach\u00e1n poibl\u00ed chun an fh\u00edrinne ioml\u00e1n a aimsi\u00fa. Caithfidh an Rialtas freagairt d\u00e1 n-\u00e9ileamh gan a thuilleadh moille.  These families have endured years without answers about the deaths of their loved ones. What exactly happened? How did it happen? Could it have been prevented? After four years, they need clarity. They need to know what the Government is going to do. Please, will he tell them today that the Government will establish a public inquiry? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  First of all, I do of course recall the horrific events at Creeslough where ten people died. It was an horrific tragedy in its impact on all those individual families of those who died and on the wider community. It is important that the survivors and families get comprehensive answers, but also accountability and justice. The real issue and debate here are about the best mechanism to get answers, accountability and justice.  It is important that the Garda has been leading a tripartite investigation alongside the Health and Safety Authority and the Commission for Regulation of Utilities. Seven arrests have been made in relation to the case. The most recent occurred on 12 September 2025. No charges have been brought at this point. An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na submitted a primary investigation file to the Director of Public Prosecutions on 29 September 2025. A supplementary file was submitted in March 2026. The supplementary file includes formal recommendations from An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na.  That file is being considered by the Director of Public Prosecutions, DPP. We must acknowledge that there is, and in my experience there has always been, an issue with public inquiries while a criminal investigation is under way. It is not as simple as the Deputy articulated. I genuinely think there is an issue. We should allow the criminal justice system to conclude. Quite a significant degree of the case would be in public, if a criminal investigation is to be initiated or if charges are served and so forth. The question is what is the best mechanism to get the full answers about what transpired and to get accountability and justice in the event of any criminal negligence or wrongdoing being found.  All the advice I have received down through the years, and particularly Attorney General advice, has been that inquiries can compromise criminal investigations. However, we are open to an inquiry. If there were a criminal case, or if a case were to be heard in court, it would reveal a substantial amount of information, but if there are ongoing and outstanding issues and concerns that remain after the conclusion of a criminal investigation and an inquest, consideration can be given to the establishment of a public inquiry. I understand that, in April, the Donegal coroner met the families of those who died, explained the inquest process to them and reiterated to the families that the Garda investigation would take precedence, as it is the most important investigation at the time.  I understand fully. It must be awful to be waiting so long for answers about what transpired. Our thoughts are with the victims, their families and loved ones, the survivors of the tragedy and the wider community of Creeslough, which was so impacted by what happened more than three years ago. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mary Lou McDonald  It is not I, but the former Garda Commissioner, who offered strongly the view and advice that there would be no compromising of the criminal investigation in the holding of a public inquiry. Be that as it may, we are now nearly four years on and the families have to have clarity on the direction of travel from the Government. The Taoiseach seemed to indicate an acceptance of the idea of an inquiry and that the question might be what the outstanding issues are and how they might emerge. Will he meet the families and hear from them directly? Undoubtedly, there is a need for accountability, including criminal accountability in open court. I do not dispute that for a second. The Garda and other statutory authorities must do their jobs, but the families have additional requests and questions. Will the Taoiseach make clear the direction of Government travel and meet the families at a time of mutual convenience? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  I will make two points. The Minister, Deputy Jim O'Callaghan, met a number of family members and their legal representatives in April of this year. It is unfair to say he spurned them. Generally, the position has always been, when a criminal investigation is under way, that Ministers for justice have to keep a distance from the case, given the separation of powers and so forth. I have no issue with meeting the families and will do so. That is to be worked out.  However, there is a fundamental point, if the Deputy thinks about. Regarding the viability of having a criminal investigation and a public inquiry at the one time, as a layperson - this is not a legal observation - I think it would be problematic and challenging as regards witnesses and so forth. The Government's position is clear. It is that we want to see the criminal justice system bring this to its conclusion. I accept the point about doing so in a timely manner and I am assured that the Director of Public Prosecutions is assessing the file and will make her decision. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Holly Cairns","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Holly-Cairns.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Holly-Cairns.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Holly Cairns  Today, we have another damning report from the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, on Ireland's declining water quality. Nearly half of our rivers are ecologically unhealthy. They are dying, as is all the wildlife and biodiversity in them. Our high status water bodies are deteriorating. These rivers are hugely important ecologically. They are refuges for some of our protected species, such as kingfisher and salmon. Almost 10% of these rivers have declined in quality in the past year alone. More worrying, we have seen a net decline of 25% in the number of high quality rivers since 2012. The trend is clear and undeniable, and we all know why it is happening. It is predominantly because of agricultural run-off, with wastewater discharges also being a major cause. These are the facts. That is the science.  We can see the devastating impact of Government policy and inaction. In many cases, that impact will irreversible. Last week, the journalist Ella McSweeney shared a graph of wild salmon returns to Irish waters in recent decades. From the mid-1970s to today, salmon returns collapsed from 180,000 per year to fewer than 20,000 per year. Ms McSweeney rightly referred to it as extinction in our time. That is what we are witnessing and what the Government is facilitating.  Just last week, there was another major fish kill incident in the River Glyde in County Louth. Drone footage captured 25 km of pollution and tens of thousands of dead fish, including adult and juvenile Atlantic salmon and European eel. The source of the pollution has been confirmed to be agricultural discharge. A file is now being prepared for a potential prosecution, but even if that happens and the prosecution is successful, the fines are so small that they barely register. There is a reason Ireland is now the only country in the EU with a nitrates derogation. It is because the derogation is simply incompatible with good water quality.  The Taoiseach will accuse me and the Social Democrats of attacking farmers, but nothing could be further from the truth. As a party, we just do not peddle obvious falsehoods and inherent contradictions, so we do not claim it is possible to spread disproportionate levels of nitrogen on soil and keep our rivers clean, not when we all know that agricultural run-off is our biggest pollutant. That is not anti-farmer. It is just fact. Does the Taoiseach accept that fact? If not, will he just come out and say it, that protecting our waterways and biodiversity simply is not a priority for the Government? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  First, it is a priority for the Government. The EPA report has serious findings. There were some positives in terms of some areas that had improved, and I think the report recommends that they be studied more, particularly in the Bannow area, to understand what is being done there that could be replicated elsewhere.  The Deputy will be aware that we have set up a Cabinet subcommittee specifically on water quality to oversee the implementation of the programme for Government commitments. A number of key Ministers are on it.  In terms of investment in water quality, there is an overall national development plan allocation for water. The Government has allocated about \u20ac12.2 billion over the next few years for water services and water quality, of which 95% or \u20ac11.7 billion is earmarked directly for Uisce \u00c9ireann. There is a further \u20ac230 million for rural water infrastructure, including group water schemes and so forth. Regarding river, lake and coastal water quality restoration, about \u20ac306 million has been allocated to that. A substantial amount of the money for Uisce \u00c9ireann is for capital projects, which means upgrading water treatment plants, removing supplies from the EPA remedial action list, eliminating contamination risks, new wastewater treatment plants, upgrading sewerage infrastructure, eliminating untreated sewage discharges into rivers and coastal waters, water mains replacement, pipe upgrades and the national leakage reduction programme. That is the level of investment we are putting in, which is unprecedented. The Deputy cannot say that the Government is not prioritising water quality, because that is one very effective way of improving it.  By the way, I will say in passing that Uisce \u00c9ireann needs to dramatically reduce the pollution emanating from its own discharges, half of which are operational issues, which in my view is absolutely unacceptable from a governance and management perspective.  In terms of agriculture, there is a significant issue there. We have never said there was not, but we have again, in a range of initiatives, provided supports for farmers to take additional measures to improve water quality. The farming for water European innovation partnership, EIP, with funding of over \u20ac60 million, was launched in 2024 and involved Teagasc, Dairy Industry Ireland and the local authorities water programme, LAWPRO. There were about 5,500 applications from the farming community. Since 2015, close to \u20ac200 million has supported investment in manure storage and low-emission slurry-spreading equipment. There are about 54,000 farmers participating in the agri-climate rural environment scheme, ACRES, while the agricultural sustainability support and advisory programme, ASSAP, will continue providing free, confidential water quality advice through to 2027. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Holly Cairns","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Holly-Cairns.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Holly-Cairns.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Holly Cairns  In the 1980s, we had over 500 pristine rivers. Now, we have just 20 - actually, it is probably less than that because that is a 2018 figure - so for the Taoiseach to say this is a priority for the Government simply is not credible. Agricultural run-off was responsible for pollution in approximately 1,000 water bodies and the Government consistently fights for a derogation for Ireland to be able to apply more chemical applications to the soil, which inevitably run off into the rivers. Not that we needed further evidence that this was not a priority for the Government, but research has been done on alternatives to applying chemical nitrogen and we know that red clover can be as effective at fixing nitrogen into the soil, and the Government shelved that scheme only last month. The Taoiseach should stand up again and tell me how it is credible to say that the Government is prioritising water quality in terms of agricultural run-off. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  On the maintenance of the nitrates derogation, we have been availing of the derogation since 2006 primarily because our grass-based farming system is much different to systems across the Continent. About 7,000 farmers have participated in that. By the way, those participating farmers probably have a higher and better record than those outside the derogation.  It is more complex than the Deputy is articulating. In some tillage areas, you can have significant run-off. It is not all dairy. Depending on----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Holly Cairns","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Holly-Cairns.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Holly-Cairns.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Holly Cairns  I did not say it was. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  Please, I did not interrupt the Deputy. It depends on soil composition and other factors.  I looked at the data on estuaries. There has been quite a significant improvement in terms of phosphorous in estuaries, although not so much in terms of rivers and lakes. It is not where it should be - there is no question around that - but we have a number of fronts. You could end the directive tomorrow morning but that would have huge impacts on the dairy industry and other industries. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Thank you, Taoiseach. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  The Deputy has not spelled that out----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  I call Deputy Bacik. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  -----and has not even articulated that either. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Holly Cairns","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Holly-Cairns.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Holly-Cairns.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Holly Cairns  I have many times. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Whitmore  We actually did today, Taoiseach. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Deputy Bacik, please. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Kevin Boxer Moran","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Kevin-Boxer-Moran.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Kevin-Boxer-Moran.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Kevin Boxer Moran  Blame the poor farmer. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ivana Bacik  Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. No woman who lived under the shadow of the eighth amendment will ever forget its impact. Many of us will recall the X case, the A, B and C case, the PP case and the tragic death of Savita Halappanavar. We all know that there are thousands of other women who were harmed and whose lives were deeply impacted by Ireland\u2019s constitutional ban on abortion between 1983 and 2018. Thousands had to travel abroad for necessary healthcare. In later years, many self-medicated with pills purchased online and far too many, in the early years, had to resort to using underground phone lines to get abortion information. As students union president in Trinity in 1989, I will never forget taking calls from women and girls in crisis pregnancy who were seeking the phone numbers of abortion clinics in England and had nowhere else to turn. Women who were panicked and desperate would describe their terror to me. Their bodies were no longer their own. Their futures were no longer their own. Due to the eighth amendment, they had to resort to calling a Trinity student\u2019s phone line to ask for help.  After many decades of campaigning, we succeeded in repealing the eighth amendment in 2018 and in legalising abortion here. That was very welcome but far too many women are still travelling. At least 1,500 have done so since 2019. Women across Ireland are still feeling the loneliness of rejection by their own health service, so we must address the barriers to accessing necessary reproductive healthcare. Resources are not the issue. The constitutional ban is gone. What is preventing women from getting the care they need is political squeamishness and cowardice. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Conor Sheehan  Hear, hear. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ivana Bacik  It is a residual, insulting, patriarchal mistrust of women that forms the basis of the mandatory three-day wait and the Government's unwillingness to engage with the evidence that other change is needed.  I welcome the Taoiseach's confirmation that he will vote in support of the Private Members' Bill to remove the three-day wait on Second Stage tonight, but even if that reform is introduced, it will not be enough. It will not be enough, in particular, for women who receive a devastating diagnosis of fatal foetal abnormality and who still have to travel abroad because of the unnecessarily restrictive provisions in the current law.  The Taoiseach asked barrister Marie O\u2019Shea to lead a review into how abortion care was working in Ireland. Her report was published three years ago. From that moment, he and his colleagues were on notice the system was failing women and that arbitrary and paternalistic processes were failing women and, indeed, doctors. Therefore, we need to go further than removing the mandatory three-day wait. We need urgent reform of the overly restrictive provisions on fatal foetal anomaly and implementation of all the recommendations from Marie O\u2019Shea\u2019s report.  The three-day wait is just one serious obstacle and women cannot wait any longer for it to be repealed, so can we have a timeline for this change? None was forthcoming from the Government yesterday. Three years on from the O\u2019Shea review, when will we see all of her recommendations implemented to deliver effective reproductive care and abortion rights? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  First of all, I recognise that this is a very sensitive issue and I appreciate the Deputy raising it in the manner she has. She campaigned consistently over a long period for the abolition of the eighth amendment. On reflection, in my view, this area should never have been in the Constitution in the first instance. It came out of a particular era in the 1980s.  Be that as it may, the people spoke in the referendum. In the context of that referendum, there was a general debate on what would follow. If we look at what has happened, there is now safe and equitable access to termination of pregnancy services. The Deputy did not really acknowledge that in her presentation. Significant steps have been taken in this regard, including the expansion of hospital services, a sustained increase in community providers - there are about 492 now - the introduction of safe access zones and the continuation of the revised model of care for termination in early pregnancy. These measures have substantially reduced barriers and increased access to services for those who need it.  There is a broad spectrum of sincerely held views on this issue. We should respect that, and the Government respects that insofar as we have a conscience vote on these issues, and we have had. The constituent members - Fianna F\u00e1il, Fine Gael and Independents - allow for a conscience vote on this. That is what will happen in respect of the vote this evening on the three-day wait period, and we should respect everybody's perspectives and views on this question. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mary Butler  Hear, hear. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  On the three days, it is interesting if you look at the unplanned pregnancy and abortion care, UnPAC, study commissioned as part of the review of the Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Act 2018. It explored the experiences of individuals accessing abortion services under section 12 of the Act. The findings indicate that the mandatory three-day waiting period was a recurring feature of discussions across the majority of interviews conducted. Participants expressed a range of views regarding its value and impact. While some regarded it as a procedural requirement that had to be navigated, others viewed it as a barrier or deterrent to accessing care. Very few participants considered the waiting period to have been beneficial to their own decision-making process, although some acknowledged that other women might value additional time for reflection. Those availing of the services now illustrate the degree to which the services have proved to be quite comprehensive in scope and access. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ivana Bacik  I absolutely acknowledge the progress that has been made since 2018 and since the legislation commenced in 2019, but we still have to acknowledge we are failing far too many women. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Conor Sheehan  Hear, hear. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ivana Bacik  Fifteen hundred women is not a small number, and in each situation, there are really difficult circumstances. I am glad that we are seeing a change of heart from the Government on the three-day waiting period after years of insisting that, because it was inserted into draft legislation late in the campaign just prior to the vote, the Government was prevented from looking to abolish it.  I welcome the Taoiseach's change of heart on this but supporting this modest measure through the first stage of a multi-phase legislative process is not enough. We need a timeline for its passage into law, if indeed Government is going to support that.  We also need to see the crucial change on fatal foetal anomaly. I am looking at Marie O'Shea's report. She talks about the challenges in clinical practice and the potentially unfair outcomes for parents arising from implementing the current section. I have spoken with doctors and with women and couples affected. We need to acknowledge the language in that section needs change. That is another crucial part of the reforms necessary to guarantee women and their partners decent healthcare. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  The timeline for the amendment is subject to the Oireachtas. It is going to go to the committee if it is passed; if it is not, it will not go to the committee. That is where we are. It will be subject to the vote this evening and, subsequent to that, it will be considered by the committee. The Minister has already engaged with Deputy Cullinane on this. The Minister will be co-operative and in constructive mode if the amendment is carried this evening.  We have to be careful when generalising about the reasons every single person had to go to the UK. One of the issues here is every case can be different. Legislative attempts to deal with that could have unintended consequences. I voted against the Social Democrats Bill two weeks ago because I felt it went too far. Legislatively it was imprecise and poor in terms of wanting Government to interfere in clinical decision-making. Maybe that was unintended but it was clearly in what was proposed. This is not simple. We will continue with a conscience vote in terms of the members of our party. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn  We are living in a rip-off Republic at the moment and the Government is the architect of it. Families are being hammered on a daily basis by ever-burgeoning prices on a range of necessities of life. The price of electricity has risen by 57% in just five years. Ireland has the highest household cost of electricity in the whole of the European Union. The ESB, a semi-State operating on the basis of Government policy, made \u20ac636 million in profit last year. It is an incredible fact that a semi-State operating under Government policy is making supernormal profits at a time when 500,000 people are in energy arrears. That works out at \u20ac300 profit for every household in the county.  Last year, according to replies we received to parliamentary questions, the Government made \u20ac4.3 billion in fuel taxes. In the jaws of a cost-of-living crisis, it made more in fuel taxes than ever before. Its plan is to increase carbon tax. Carbon taxes were \u20ac1.2 billion last year - 80% higher than they were five years ago. They will increase in October this year and every year to 2030. The cost of diesel is 40% more than last year and carbon tax is the main driver of that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  It is not the main driver. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn  It is the main driver of the increase in the price of diesel. It is a blind tax. It takes no consideration of people's ability to pay. In actual fact, it hurts those on low incomes the most. This is the most detached Government in generations. It simply does not get it. It does not understand what is happening in people's kitchens - the pressures, the stress, the anger. People are a toothache or a timing belt away from debt. They are living from overdraft to overdraft. People are working all the hours they can get, yet they are struggling to keep the lights on and pay for fuel to commute to work.  We had a warning from the Central Bank last night that inflation is about to get worse. Gabriel Makhlouf said global supply chain pressures intensified in March and April and will put upward pressure on goods prices. It is spreading across all sectors - retail, services, industry, construction. All this has pushed mortgage rates up in recent weeks. Despite all this, despite the crisis families are in, at midnight on 31 July, away from the political spotlight, when D\u00e1il Members are sunning themselves on holiday----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darragh O'Brien  Ridiculous. What kind of populist----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn  -----it is the Government's plan to raise petrol by 27 cent per litre and diesel by 32 cent per litre. That is an incredible thing. Is this not the ultimate two fingers to the people of this county who are in trouble in terms of the cost of living? Will the Taoiseach commit today not to increase fuel taxes on 31 July and to give the people of Ireland some respite? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  I will be working throughout July. I hope people get a bit of sunshine in July but the way things are going it is a fairly rare occurrence these days.  The issue the Deputy raised is serious. The one issue he studiously avoided mentioning, bar indirectly when quoting the Governor of the Central Bank, was the war in the Middle East. He ignored the two wars - ignored them completely - and he said other things were the drivers of increases in energy prices. The driver has been clearly the war in Iran. Everybody knows that and he ignored it in his presentation.  We acknowledge there is a cost-of-living issue. The Deputy quoted from the Governor of the Central Bank. What did the Governor say? The Deputy can quote it back to me if he wishes. It was that global pressures will create inflationary pressures here. That is true across Europe.  When the governor of the European Central Bank spoke to the EU Council at the commencement of the war, she said things were going in the right direction. Inflation was coming down to around 2% and growth was happening again in the European economy more widely. The war hit and we saw what happened in Qatar. The positive news is we have, hopefully, a sustainable peace. That will lead and already has led to a reduction in the global market price of oil and gas. That will continue for the rest of the year and into the new year. Even better outcomes could develop from that.  We are very conscious of inflationary pressures. That is why in the budget and in the recent package of \u20ac750 million, we intervened to alleviate pressures as much as possible on people. Some reductions in the budget were of a permanent nature. We increased core social protection rates by \u20ac10 and introduced a significant targeted increase in child support payments. The fuel allowance was increased and expanded to take in those on the working family payment. A one-adult household on the lone parent payment with one child will see an increase of 9%, that is \u20ac1,800, from the Department. A two-adult household will see an increase of just over 8% or \u20ac2,300, in their payments.  On the broader issue of those in arrears, there are about 184,000 in arrears on electricity over 90 days. The Department of energy and the Department of Social Protection will further analyse that and see how our resources can be targeted on that issue as they have been in other areas through MABS. We have helped families and so on deal with situations that they are in.  They key issue of course is we have to replace fossil fuels with renewables. The Deputy mentioned the carbon tax. Substantial money goes to farmers - 60% of ACRES is from the Exchequer. Substantial money goes on retrofitting. Since 2019, over \u20ac1.8 billion has been spent on retrofitting. We have been able to provide energy upgrades to 268,000 homes. We could not have done that if we did not have the carbon tax in place. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn  There are global pressures. There is no doubt about that, but this country is an outlier in terms of many of the costs people are paying. It is the Government's effect that makes this country an outlier. The Taoiseach talks about the carbon tax. We have shown through parliamentary questions that hundreds of millions of euro from that have gone back into the Exchequer and have never been used. These are parliamentary questions answered by Ministers.  The price of a shopping trolley has increased by 40% since 2021. This is the second most expensive country in the European Union. Groceries cost 15% more than the European average. Average rents have increased by 36% in five years, up to \u20ac2,700 in Dublin. In one year over the last five years, the cost of living has gone up \u20ac4,000 on average per household. That is the definition of a rip-off. We are one of the richest countries in the world, yet middle-income families are so squeezed as a result of Government decisions. The Taoiseach studiously stopped answering that question. I simply asked him a question. He might address it. Will he stop the increases in taxes on petrol and diesel on 31 July? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  The Government is monitoring the situation and will make clear to the D\u00e1il before the summer recess our position on that and how we deal with that. The permanent reductions in cost of living the Government has introduced include free schoolbooks at primary and secondary level, expansion of free hot school meals, universal childcare subsidy, \u20ac280 new baby grant, hospital inpatient charges abolished, expanded free GP care, free contraception for 17- to 35-year-olds, free HRT. I could go on in terms of the interventions the Government has done to create a permanent reduction in the cost of living, notwithstanding the huge increases.  We have had the Covid pandemic. The supply-chain crisis led to inflation. The war in Ukraine led to inflation and an energy crisis----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn  The ESB. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  -----and so did the war in Iran lead to very substantial increases. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn  It is from the dysfunctional system of electricity generation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darragh O'Brien  Increases in supply. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  We need to get to renewables and we need a better grid, but Deputy T\u00f3ib\u00edn opposed the North-South connector. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn  No, we support it; we just think it should be underground. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darragh O'Brien  You do not support it. You want it delayed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  You oppose it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn  No. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Deputy, please. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  You oppose it. That is the bottom line. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn  It is not built because you want it overground. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  If we keep doing that in this country, we will have more crises. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Thank you, Taoiseach. The time is up. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  We have to expand the grid and we have to get more renewable energy. That is it----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Just before I move to Other Members----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  -----but Deputy T\u00f3ib\u00edn does not support any of that deep down. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darragh O'Brien  Stand on the back of a trailer. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Thank you, Taoiseach. I have two welcomes, one is to Ale, Sallyann, Gail, Emma and Dara from Gorey who are here as guests of Deputy \u00d3 S\u00failleabh\u00e1in.  I also welcome the Athboy Tidy Towns group. The Athboy person of the year is present, Lily Mangan. They are in the Gallery and they are guests of Deputy Aisling Dempsey. You are most welcome, everybody. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna \u00f3 Cheannair\u00ed - Leaders' Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_12","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna \u00f3 na Comhalta\u00ed Eile - Other Members\u2019 Questions","counts":{"speechCount":7,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_12","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Keira Keogh  Sunday was a proud, historic and, I think the Taoiseach will agree, unforgettable day when we welcomed Prime Minister Mark Carney to Westport, Mayo but, more importantly, to his ancestral family home in Aughagower village. I thank him and his wife, Diana, as well as the Taoiseach and his wife, Mary, for coming and for being so gracious with their time.  It is also really important to thank Colette O'Toole, chairperson of Aughagower Community Council, and all of the community there for the powerful moment that they took for their small village where they were on the international stage and the amount of work that they put in to make the place look spectacular. I thank Rosaleen Heraty, her staff in Westport Town Hall Theatre, and all of Mayo County Council who put on a civil reception that showcased the warmth and the pride that we have in our community; the Hughes family in the historic Westport Estate; as well as Joe Gilmore and all the staff at Knock. I think the Taoiseach will agree that this was a deep, meaningful homecoming that celebrated the enduring bond between Ireland and Canada and anybody who painted a wall, swept a street, waved a flag or came out to just see the occasion deserves a big buladh bos.  Today, I want to talk about housing. I welcome yesterday's announcement that a project on the Lodge Road in Westport was one of 82 successful under the new housing infrastructure investment fund. This has the potential to unlock 200 houses on local authority land and potentially 300 more. I thank my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy John Cummins, whom I see in the Chamber.  I want to talk today about the thresholds for social housing. In 2023, all local authorities got an increase of \u20ac5,000 under the Housing for All review. However, Mayo currently is under band 3, which is only \u20ac30,000, and this threshold is locking people out of social housing for earning too much. Meanwhile they are not earning enough to survive the private market. I understand that this is a complex challenge and that if you increase the housing threshold you might add to the already overwhelmed list, but right now what option do I have for a working family who are slightly above the threshold and may get a notice to quit and present in my office as homeless? I offer them emergency accommodation 60 km away - away from their jobs, away from the schools and away from the community. As they are above the housing threshold, there is no hope.  I was contacted by Councillor Peter Flynn, chairperson of the housing strategic policy committee, SPC, on behalf of the members there, to ask if the bands will be reviewed. They pointed out that our neighbours in Galway are in band 2, which is \u20ac35,000, \u20ac5,000 more than Mayo. When we look at prices in Mayo last year, in Westport the average price was \u20ac327,000 where as in Kiltimagh in Mayo it was \u20ac155,000. This shows the significant variation across the county.  I raised this in a parliamentary question in December. I was informed that the Department was examining the existing income limits and work was ongoing, but I would really appreciate the Taoiseach's thoughts on this today. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  First of all, I could not agree more with the Deputy in terms of the wonderful day we had on Sunday with the visit of Mark Carney and his wife Diana back to their home town of Aughagower. I pay tribute to Colette O'Toole and the entire community in Aughagower, including Fr. Tod and all involved, for the celebration of the mass there and the wonderful sense of community spirit which illustrates the strength of community spirit in Ireland - it is still very alive and well. There was a certain degree of pride that the grandson of one of their own was returning as Prime Minister of Canada and, in addition, strengthening also the political and economic links between Canada and Ireland and Canada and the European Union, and we will have more of that during the Irish Presidency of the European Union. On Westport, the Deputy was right to mention Rosaleen Heraty. The people of Mayo did themselves proud in terms of how they organised at community-based level and that was evident in the civic reception.  I want to give a mention to Cuimsi\u00fa, which Chuck and Mair\u00e9ad Dunford created, which facilitates special needs children participating in live traditional music. It was fantastic to witness. It was their own child coming back home in the car said to them, \"When will I be playing in the Fleadh?\" They went to Comhaltas and a Comhaltas branch in Mayo has started this. Now two or three Comhaltas branches are doing it, which is sending out a signal to the rest of the country and the world that we want Comhaltas branches ultimately trying to embrace this. They put on a show and performance which was heartwarming and fantastic, and their daughter, Hannah, led the way. Hannah has a wonderful personality and performed on a number of instruments and sang, etc. It was a wonderful experience.  In terms of social housing income thresholds, I have spoken to the Minister, Deputy James Browne, and the Minister of State, Deputy John Cummins, and we have had discussions on this. Yesterday's announcement was very significant. The \u20ac1 billion announced by the Minister will unlock thousands of houses.  I am in favour of increasing social housing income thresholds substantially and significantly. There are issues in terms of the coupling of that with housing assistance payments and so on, but we need to bite the bullet on this because working people need an opportunity to access social housing, particularly workers who will not be at a level that they can borrow. I said to the Department that there are all these traditional reasons we cannot do something but we did it in 2023 with the \u20ac5,000 increase.  Family composition should be weighted more as well. If a family have two children or three children, there should be a higher weight to family composition and eligibility for a social house also. It is interesting there have been misleading articles and so on. Because we are nearly at 10,000 social houses a year being built----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Thank you, Taoiseach. I call Deputy Keogh to respond. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  I will deal with that argument later. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Yes, thank you. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Keira Keogh  I agree Hannah was the star of the show and that whole group and that powerful moment of inclusion was really special.  I welcome the Taoiseach's comments. I am happy to hear that he is talking about family composition. Councillor Donna Sheridan also contacted me. She is working at present with a separated single mother with two children who is trying to leave the family home. The mother is only slightly above the threshold but does not qualify for social housing. She is looking at her options. Does she ask her boss to reduce her hours so that she can come under the threshold, does she stay in the family home where things have broken down, or does she potentially accept substandard housing or move away from her community? She is salaried at \u20ac36,000 and, even with the allowances for her children, she does not qualify. Councillor Sheridan put it strongly when she said that we are excluding from social housing our SNAs, our carers and the people who keep the backbone of the country going, and we really need to increase the thresholds. I am glad to go back to the housing SPC and say that the Taoiseach agrees with and is moving towards that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  Indeed, I must pay tribute to Councillor Sean Carey as well for the leadership he gave to the council at the weekend.  One of the challenges is that somebody could be on a list for four years, five years or even longer in cities and then an increase in income could suddenly take them out of the eligibility. We have to watch that as well. The Minister is examining it and will come back to us with his proposals on this. The Minister will come back to the House on that because there are many cases similar to what the Deputy articulated and illustrated. That is the general direction of travel that we want to go in as a Government. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna \u00f3 na Comhalta\u00ed Eile - Other Members\u2019 Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_13","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Pholasa\u00ed n\u00f3 ar Reachta\u00edocht - Questions on Policy or Legislation","counts":{"speechCount":72,"speakerCount":22},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_13","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Mac Lochlainn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aisling Dempsey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Paul O'Shea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Donnelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Donnelly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-Donnelly.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Carol Nolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Charles Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Charles-Ward.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Charles-Ward.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Callaghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Catherine-Callaghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marie Sherlock","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin Hayes","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darren O'Rourke  Payment of the TV licence fee has collapsed. Fewer than 300,000 licences have been sold so far this year. It is a significant drop on last year.  It is no surprise that far fewer people are willing to pay the licence fee. People are turned off by the financial scandals at RT\u00c9, the waste of public money, the culture of arrogance and the lack of accountability.  We need vibrant, diverse and financially sustainable public media in Ireland but the funding model, through the TV licence, is broken. People are voting with their feet. It is time to scrap the TV licence.  It is time for a modern funding model that strengthens public broadcasting and builds a thriving, secure and independent media sector in Ireland. Will the Government deliver that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  Will the Deputy tell me what his model is? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darren O'Rourke  We have set it out in policy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  The Taoiseach's question was rhetorical, Deputy O'Rourke. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  The bottom line is the licence creates significant revenue, notwithstanding that it has come down somewhat. The Deputy just cannot have it each and every way. Saying \"scrap it\" sounds good - it is populist; it is grand. However, the Government cannot be paying for everything all the time and that reality needs to sink in as well. The licence fee is there and it complements what the Government has invested in public service broadcasting and in public service media more generally through Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n, various schemes and so forth. We all need a bit of a reality check here. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darren O'Rourke  What about the report of the Future of Media Commission? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  All questions have been put. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  People cannot be looking for extras everywhere across the board----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darren O'Rourke  We can look at taxation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  ----and saying we should just get rid of this model and do this and that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  The progress of our business is dependent on getting in all Members. It is not dependent on the Taoiseach asking rhetorical questions. They are not to be answered. Deputies' questions must be delivered within the minute available to them, including----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darren O'Rourke  The Taoiseach asked me a question. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  It was rhetorical. Deputies can take such questions as rhetorical. Responding is not allowed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Mac Lochlainn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy P\u00e1draig Mac Lochlainn  It was a challenge. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  I call Deputy Gannon. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Gary Gannon  Has the Taoiseach any idea what is happening in the Department of justice at the moment? There seems to be an impulsivity driving and leading the Department that has scant regard for consequences. In our courts, for example, the criminal legal aid system is on the verge of collapse. Solicitors have taken to removing their labour for three days and that will continue into next week. Over the past couple of weeks, when the spokespersons asked for the analysis that is the basis on which the flat fee is being introduced, we got nothing back from the Department. Yet, I was able to ready about it today in the Daily Mail and elsewhere. There is chaos happening in, and emanating from, the Department of justice. This is nowhere better seen than in what is happening in the courts at the moment. Will the Taoiseach ask the Minister to re-engage with the people who deliver the criminal legal aid system? They have currently withdrawn their labour and the consequences of that will be dire. Nobody seems to have a clue what is going on, and no less so the Minister for justice. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  I disagree with the Deputy. I think we have a strong Minister for justice who is making sensible decisions. Some people will perhaps not like it because they liked the old system. We should not be having multiplicities of hearings. That is not tenable or sustainable. There is going to be no reduction in the cost to the State of providing criminal legal aid because of the reform. The Minister is proposing a flat fee. He has engaged with the Law Society and the Bar Council in respect of this. Expenditure on criminal legal aid in the District Court has nearly doubled from \u20ac19 million in 2015 to \u20ac37 million in 2024. Come on, Deputy. We cannot all go around the place saying----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Gary Gannon  Can we see the analysis? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Deputy, please. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  Whose analysis? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  For God's sake. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  Apologies, a Cheann Comhairle, I should not have asked. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Bold. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  It is important though because----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  I call Deputy Bacik. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ivana Bacik  I renew a request I previously made to the Taoiseach relating to the campaign by Ms Lisa Phillips, who is a courageous survivor of sex abuse by Jeffrey Epstein. She and other survivors are engaged in a quest for truth and justice. Since the initial batch of files relating to Epstein's depraved international paedophile network was released, we have seen a further drip feed of allegations about his connections, which have implicated many people in public life, including former European Commissioners. Troublingly, the files also suggest that Epstein visited Ireland on quite a number of occasions, which opens the question as to whether he may have committed crimes here. I wrote to the Taoiseach again earlier this week, at Lisa Phillips's request, to forward him a request she has made for a meeting with him to outline her concerns about the nature of visits Epstein made to Ireland and about whether any criminal behaviour may have been engaged in by him here. I again ask that the Taoiseach and the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, consider meeting with Lisa Phillips on her next visit to Ireland. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  I certainly will consider meeting with Lisa Phillips. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ivana Bacik  I thank the Taoiseach. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  Any information she has in respect of those visits, if they involved criminal activity, should be referred to the Garda. I do not know whether that has occurred. I have no issue meeting with Lisa Phillips. I got a very late request to do so in Washington but it was not possible to schedule a meeting. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett  It is an absolute scandal that we have tens of thousands of vacant properties in this country while people face homelessness and the effects of the housing crisis. I ask the Taoiseach to look into something I became aware of this week. I have written to D\u00fan Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council about it. I received a tip-off from a very credible source that there are 22 apartments in an apartment complex off the Stillorgan Road that were handed over for Part V social housing three years ago but have been sitting empty ever since. Those 22 apartments are empty while families are being sent from D\u00fan Laoghaire-Rathdown into homeless hostels in the city and thousands of people have been on the housing waiting list for years. If this report is true, and it needs to be checked, there are 22 apartments earmarked for social housing sitting empty in an apartment complex off the Stillorgan Road. Will the Taoiseach look into this as a matter or urgency? I have written to the CEO of D\u00fan Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council. This kind of thing just cannot go on. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  First, I agree with the Deputy that if this is true, it would be scandalous and unacceptable. However, I do not have the details behind it and I do not know who gave him the tip-off. If he gives me the details, I certainly will pursue the matter because there can be no justification for that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Collins  Adult and community education across Ireland is facing a crisis. Classes are being cut, jobs are being lost and earnings are being slashed in multiple education and training boards. A total of \u20ac20 million has been removed from the programmes serving some of the most marginalised learners in our communities. There are over 500 further education and training campuses across Ireland, six of which are in my constituency of Cork South-West. More than 40% of those attending them are senior citizens. These classes are a lifeline for many who live alone and would otherwise be at risk of social isolation. Will the Taoiseach find out for my constituents and me, and for the country, what criteria are being used for cutting courses and making tutors redundant? Is he aware that these cuts will mainly target and affect the most marginalised learners in our communities? Adult education gives people a second chance to learn, grow and build a better future for themselves. Why are important opportunities being denied to some of our most vulnerable people through cuts in the budget for adult education? I ask that the decision be overturned. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  I thank the Deputy for his question but I think he is conflating separate matters. This is not a cut in adult education. A total of 16 ETBs provide free English language classes for speakers of other languages. Demand rose sharply after the war in Ukraine broke out, going from approximately 9,000 learners in 2019 to more than 30,000 last year, 61% of whom were international protection applicants or displaced Ukrainians. In response to that increased demand and the need to ensure effective integration, temporary funding of up to \u20ac25 million annually was provided between 2023 and 2025. In line with budget 2026, that temporary funding has now been reduced but the core provision has not been reduced. ETBs retain flexibility within their overall budgets to prioritise English language classes locally. The change will have impacts. The additional funding was there for quite a number of years and it was a temporary intervention. The ETBs will work with SOLAS and others to try to maximise provision and deal with a newer phase. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aisling Dempsey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aisling Dempsey  I raise the school summer programme, which was formerly called the July provision. I have been contacted by numerous parents, school staff and principals who are really frustrated and very stressed. People at St. Michael's school and Scoil Mhuire in Trim, St. Anne's school in Navan and many more schools across Meath West have told me they have not been allocated enough resources and staff by the Department to run the programme this year. The summer programme has been really responsive to me and I know its staff are working with schools. However, I am really concerned that the wording in the relevant circular will trump common sense. The summer programme is not a summer camp or a luxury. It is a really valuable educational programme and an essential support for parents. We must make sure the letter of the law in terms of this circular is not enforced and that the school summer programme team works closely with schools to get them what they need. These schools and parents know the ratio of teachers and SNAs to children that is needed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  I thank the Deputy for raising this issue. The Department is saying it has received more applications for the school-based scheme this year than the number that ran it in 2025, with increases across primary, post-primary and special schools. In addition, the number of home-based applications has significantly increased since last year. Officials in the Department are engaging with schools on an individual basis in relation to the running of the summer programme. The staffing allocation for special class groups in the primary school scheme is typically the same as the special class resource allocation that exists during the school year.  After this year's scheme, there should be a review of this. We need to target our resources at those most in need. The scheme has been expanding significantly. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Paul O'Shea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Paul O'Shea  I raise the ongoing dispute between the Department of Social Protection and the Branch Managers' Association, which represents the social welfare branch offices that continue to provide vital social services in communities across the country. In April 2018, former Labour Court chairman Kevin Duffy issued recommendations which were accepted as a full and final settlement of the issues between both parties. Those recommendations specifically provided for the ongoing consultation, regular engagement and a forum for discussion between the Department and the Branch Managers' Association. Unfortunately, relations have deteriorated in recent times and significant concerns remain unsolved. At a time when these local offices continue to provide an invaluable service, particularly in rural Ireland, it is important that constructive engagement takes place. Will the Taoiseach ask the Minister and the Department to re-engage directly with the Branch Managers' Association to facilitate meaningful dialogue to resolve the current difficulties? Surely the best way forward is through discussion, mutual respect and a willingness of all sides to find a workable solution that protects services for the public and provides certainty for branch managers. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  The Minister, Deputy Calleary, has already met branch managers. The Department of Social Protection has offered all branch managers a 10% increase in their remuneration with effect from 1 June 2026. This has been sanctioned and my understanding is that a number of branch managers have accepted the increase, but the Branch Managers' Association has refused the increase. I am told the Department is not in a position to agree to this request for arbitration either collectively or individually. Across the board, the Government has public service norms, pay norms, and various frameworks to govern issues that arise in respect of remuneration. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Donnelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Donnelly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-Donnelly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Donnelly  This week, I met the wonderful students of the National Learning Network in Parslickstown in Mulhuddart. It is a place that has shown a way for people with different abilities to learn the social and work schools to enable them to build their own personal skill sets and possibly enter the workforce. Unfortunately and sadly, we have the lowest number of people with disabilities in work and this must be challenged. Due to funding cuts, they have a waiting list, and each person on that waiting list is losing time and opportunities. It is directly linked to City of Dublin ETB and it does not seem to be an issue with the other ETBs in Dublin. Will the Taoiseach please engage with the Minister to work with City of Dublin ETB to reverse the cuts to the numbers and end the waiting list the National Learning Network currently has? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  That might be a similar issue to the one that Deputy Collins raised. I will talk to the Minister in respect of it. The scheme for English language classes was quite expansive because of the arrival under the international protection order----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Donnelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Donnelly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-Donnelly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Donnelly  This is people with disabilities. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  I will follow it up with the Minister. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  One of the commitments in the programme for Government is to make the criminal justice system more victim-centred. Yesterday, I met Sharon Lynn, the sister of Martin Lynn, who died following a one-punch attack in 2023. The senseless death of her brother Martin and her interaction as a victim in the court process during the trial of Martin's assailant is a story that Sharon has had to tell on countless occasions, and I witnessed that anguish in my office yesterday. She stood on a platform with the Minister for justice and he indicated that he would meet her. I ask that that meeting take place. As someone who did not practise in criminal law but practised at the civil end of crime, I definitely think we can do better for victims. What steps is the Government taking to make the criminal justice system more victim-centred? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  With the O'Malley report and so on, right across the board, there have been significant reforms in respect of support for victims through the criminal justice system. We will continue to have victims as a core focus of our policy. I will speak to the Minister in respect of----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Sharon Lynn, about her brother, Martin Lynn. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  I will speak to the Minister about Sharon's request for a meeting. I appreciate it is a traumatic situation. The Minister has met many victims over the last while. As the Deputy knows, Jennie's Law is coming in because of his engagement with TDs, families, Deputy Paul McAuliffe and others, so the Minister is responsive to situations. I will alert him that the Deputy raised this. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn  There is very serious overcrowding in Tullamore hospital at the moment. It is the largest hospital in the midlands region. A memo was sent around to staff stating that there was a black escalation, as I have been told by staff within the hospital. They were told that 35 inpatients are being accommodated in surge beds across the hospital, with a further 14 off-site in private medical beds. This is not the flu season or the depths of winter. It is happening in the middle of summer. I am told that it has been caused by increases in population and a parallel failure to increase facilities to cope with the extra numbers. Will the Taoiseach tell the D\u00e1il today what he will put in place to deal with the crisis immediately? What long-term plan has the Government to make sure that this does not arise in the future? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Health (Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill)  I compliment the management of Tullamore hospital, who have managed demand better than most hospitals in the country and consistently achieve very few people on trolleys. We do that through a number of different ways, including purchasing private beds where necessary. That is part of what every hospital and region does. We need to standardise the cost in relation to that but we do use off-site capacity. I do not know what the Deputy is referring to with regard to black escalation. If it is that we are trying to manage the budget overall because the HSE has hired essentially an additional 2,500 people at the beginning of this year, without a corresponding reduction in agency staff, it may be that. The Dublin and midlands areas are particularly egregious in their agency use instead of hiring for permanent positions. There is no question that the entire D\u00e1il wants to see a reduction in agency use. If that is what the Deputy is referring to, I do not know why it is being referred to in those terms, but it is certainly necessary, and it was told to me in the health committee, that we make sure we reduce agency staff and recruit permanent staff instead. I do not know what else the Deputy referred to. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn  I can get the details to the Minister today if she likes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cian O'Callaghan  Healthcare assistants in Northside Home Care Services do incredibly important work looking after the elderly and the community. They are paid just above the minimum wage, well below the HSE going rate. They took strike action in January and they have taken industrial action since, with work stoppages. They should not have to do this. They should be paid a fair wage that respects the work that they do. Does the Taoiseach agree that they should be paid the HSE's going rate? Will the Government introduce a sectoral wage agreement so that healthcare assistants are paid the going HSE rate, a fair wage? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  As we know, there are agreements about public service pay. There have been agreements with the section 39 workers. I understand from the Minister that about \u20ac35 per hour is the rate for tendering for services. I believe every effort should be made to try to resolve this. Regarding this company, it seems that how this is all being structured is an anomaly. I might be wrong but that is my sense of it. We need to get to the bottom of it and make sure there is a sustainable basis for workers and for the service. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Carol Nolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Carol Nolan  I wish to raise serious concerns again about the dental system and the total collapse of dental services for medical card patients and the lack of timely assessments for schoolgoing children. I and others have noted that this has really regressed. In the 1980s, as schoolchildren, we all had those timely assessments but we seem to be going backwards. It is getting no better. Even PRSI patients have had a number of benefits that they would have got in the past eliminated. There are a number of issues regarding dental care. I know the Irish Dental Association has been calling for some time for the contract to be renewed and for complete reform of the system. It is very frustrated with the HSE and the Department of Health. Will the Minister please intervene with the HSE and Department of Health to ensure that they can get a renewed contract in place as soon as possible? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill  I have already intervened with the HSE on two fronts. We will be producing a dental-specific plan. It is important to reference what the Deputy said about long waits, particularly for children. A specific intervention programme will last about two years. The Irish Dental Association has been involved with that. Let us not give the speaking points of private representative bodies either. I was at its conference and raised the increase in fees.  The fee paid to dentists for medical card patients has been increased by 40% and yet people still do not want to do it. I do have to acknowledge that as part of their conference dentists had two days, one on dentistry and one on aesthetics. I challenged the Irish Dental Association on that and it robustly defended the ability of dentists to do Botox and other things as part of their choice of how they practise. I have to highlight all these different things. Yes, we need to have a new contract anyway. Yes, we need to continue to make sure that we have a structured programme particularly for children. However, it is also true that there is not just dentistry happening and that is reducing capacity particularly in the public system. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  The summer provision has worked well for many years now. It has supported families and in particular children with disabilities but this year has not gone to plan. Schools have no certainty about summer provision, July provision, in particular in relation to the home-based school provision. Parents are supposed to source teachers and SNAs to provide this. We are seven days out from schools closing and parents have no certainty as to whether their children have been accepted. Can the Taoiseach confirm urgently that parents will receive confirmation today in relation to home-based provision? For next year can we really encourage that this be provided within schools rather than outsourced to parents? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  As I said earlier, and this is just a general view, I think we need to review this. The scheme has expanded beyond any original parameters, which is a good thing. Funding has increased from about \u20ac12 million in 2016 to about \u20ac62 million now, supporting 70,800 students across 2,000 schools. Funding has increased by \u20ac42 million in the last five years alone. The programme is open to all schools, with a particular focus on increasing participation in special schools. Eligibility remains largely unchanged from 2025. My understanding is that it was originally for special schools and special needs children. That was the original objective of the schools summer programme. There always has to be a razor-sharp focus on targeting those who most need it. I will talk to the Minister, Deputy Hildegarde Naughton, and let her know the Deputy has raised the issue of home-based provision. More schools have participated this year than last year. That is probably creating challenges as well. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Charles Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Charles-Ward.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Charles-Ward.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Charles Ward  Concerns have been raised by a local charity, Lifeline, about being able to access family law under the legal aid scheme in Donegal. I understand there are significant delays in processing legal aid applications at the moment. During this period, organisations supporting vulnerable individuals and families often need to identify solicitors who may be able to assist in urgent family law matters. However, it appears that information on solicitors participating in the Legal Aid Board\u2019s law panel is not readily available to organisations such as Lifeline Inishowen and other organisations. This creates difficulties in attempting to assist individuals who are experiencing family breakdown, domestic abuse, child access issues and guardianship access issues. Access to timely legal advice is critical in family law and I am concerned that the current arrangements may be creating unnecessary barriers for vulnerable people and assistants. Why can information not be provided to organisations such as Lifeline Inishowen and other organisations on this issue? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  The fact is that supports have been provided. On the specifics of the organisation the Deputy referenced, I do not have the details here. I will alert the Minister for justice that the Deputy has raised that specific case and ask him to revert to the Deputy on it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Callaghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Catherine-Callaghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Catherine Callaghan  On behalf of the cathaoirleach of Carlow County Council, Councillor Tommy Kinsella, I ask the Taoiseach about the funding that was promised to repair the rural roads around Carlow that were damaged by Storm Chandra. In south and east Carlow, many rural roads around Borris, Myshall, Clonmore and other areas were left in desperate conditions after the storm. Due to the delay in the receipt of the \u20ac4 million that was promised and is required to repair the damage done, Carlow County Council now has to reallocate the budget it had for its standard maintenance programme in order to repair these roads. That will have a substantial knock-on effect on the entire road network in Carlow and not just for 2026. When can Carlow County Council and its cathaoirleach, Councillor Kinsella, expect to receive that funding? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  Every allocation to local authorities also had contingency provision for events. That said, the Ministers concerned are still engaging on that issue. I will revert to the Deputy. I will alert the Ministers that she has specifically raised Carlow, but I think it is a more nationwide issue as well. Capital expenditure has increased fairly significantly year on year. I accept that the storms created specific challenges in the areas that were most affected by Storm Chandra in particular. There are implications for the need for urgent road repairs in Carlow, Wicklow and other areas. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Conor Sheehan  I raise the ongoing issue of the future long-term funding for the network of live-monitored CCTV cameras in Limerick. I understand this was raised at the mayoral forum recently. In light of the total Garda budget of \u20ac2.74 billion, the funding shortfall here is \u20ac880,000. I know that the Department of justice cannot fund this directly. Would the Taoiseach support the Garda to fund the local authority to ensure that this service continues in the context of the overall Garda budget and the NDP investment? If this service is not funded, the live monitoring will have to cease and it will be akin to losing 30 garda\u00ed on the beat. The Government is investing \u20ac58 million directly for the Ryder Cup and \u20ac115 million in infrastructure. This is \u20ac880,000 and it is vital for the safety and security of the people in the region both during the Ryder Cup and beyond. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  Let us not conflate the two issues. I think the Ryder Cup is a good event for Limerick. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Conor Sheehan  It is. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  I am sure the Deputy acknowledges that. I am a great supporter of CCTV. I think it does help security and helps with the detection of crime in many instances. It can be a deterrent to committing crime. There probably should be a tripartite contribution or at least the council and the Department of justice should make a contribution to schemes. I do not have the specifics on the Limerick CCTV scheme. I will talk to the Minister for justice in respect of the shortfall. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marie Sherlock","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Marie Sherlock  In March we all warmly welcomed the purchase of the site in Raheen in Limerick for the much-needed expansion of acute hospital capacity in the mid-west region. In March there was a commitment to establishing a new board and that there would be an initial report by this September. What is the delay in the formation of that board? Is that September date now off the table? Is there a timeline for the formation of the board and that initial report? Is resourcing an issue? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill  No, resourcing is not an issue. First, I want to go and see Clare myself to understand that better, and ask for a plan for the region for the development of services in Clare and Tipperary - Ennis and Nenagh - and not just Limerick. Overwhelmingly the focus in the mid-west has been on Limerick, which I understand. However, proper community care and proper integrated care requires a focus on Nenagh and Ennis as well. I have agreed a chair, who I believe will be excellent. I will meet the patient council this week. I really want its perspectives before I finalise the board. Thereafter we will appoint a board to do that work. That will begin over the summer but it will begin structurally in a very detailed way thereafter. I have a little bit more work to do on that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin Hayes","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin Hayes  A Cheann Comhairle, you might join me in welcoming Abraham Phelan and Rikke Sorensen from the Silk Road Caf\u00e9, who are here in the Gallery. This past weekend, the Silk Road Caf\u00e9, a private operator in the Chester Beatty Library on the Dublin Castle campus, was forced to close as a result of upcoming EU Presidency events there. Over the last number of weeks, several of us in this Chamber have raised the issue and written to various Ministers but no one has given us an adequate response. The lack of engagement with a business that has provided excellent services to the public in one of our national institutions for 25 years gives me great concern about how other small businesses in similar positions are to be treated by the State. Given that this is the last question the Taoiseach is taking today and I think this week, and given that Abraham is here now, will the Taoiseach now meet Abraham and intervene to ensure his business is properly supported and compensated given this Government-imposed closure? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  I did not realise people were coming into the Public Gallery. I am not in a position to meet today. I have checked this out and I have to be careful in what I say. I understand it is not down to the European Union Presidency and there may be other issues - I do not know. I do not know if it is up for tender. Sorry, when I say I do not know, there have been indications that there are wider issues but I would not want the Presidency to be a factor in closing down the caf\u00e9. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin Hayes","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin Hayes  It definitely was in the next month. He has a lease until----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  I was told the reason for the six-month closure was the Presidency. I do not think that is a fair argument either. I would not want any facility to have to close for six months because of the EU Presidency. It does not merit that from a security point of view. The main activities at Dublin Castle are to the latter part of the Presidency. There will be ongoing events but there has to be balance and perspective. I have checked this out and I do not think it is closing for six months because of the Presidency. I think the Chester Beatty Library in Dublin Castle is involved. I have asked my officials to check and they have----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  I thank the Taoiseach. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  -----and that is the feedback. It is better that these issues are not discussed publicly. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  The Taoiseach's time is up. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  You need the details of this to discuss it publicly and that is problematic too. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna ar Pholasa\u00ed n\u00f3 ar Reachta\u00edocht - Questions on Policy or Legislation"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_14","debateType":"debate","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/67","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/67\/dail\/1","houseCode":"dail","stage":"1","isBillStage":true,"showAs":"Health (Amendment) Bill 2026: First Stage (D\u00e1il)"}},"showAs":"Health (Amendment) Bill 2026: First Stage","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":4},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_14","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Cullinane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Louise O'Reilly  I move:  That leave be granted to introduce a Bill entitled an Act to amend the Health Act 1970 and to provide for related matters.  I will share my time. The Bill amends the Health Act 1970 to ensure the effectiveness of the provision without charge of drugs, medicines or medical or surgical appliances to persons suffering from the precise disease or disability of a permanent or long-term nature through a review every three years. The long-term illness, LTI, scheme has been a success since its establishment and has assisted many people across this State. However, it has not been updated for a long time and as a result, we now know about many disabilities, ailments and illness that would not have been known about when the Bill was first introduced. They are long-term and lifelong but in some instances they are not covered by the scheme. In order to know if this scheme is fit for purpose and is delivering for those who need it, it is important that it is monitored and reviewed and that this is done on a consistent basis.  Conditions such as endometriosis and polycystic ovary syndrome, PCOS, should be covered by the scheme. However, women find themselves having to find the money for treatment in some instances and shop around, as it were, and go to multiple appointments to be prescribed drugs. This can have a very severe impact on their pocket. Obviously, there is the drugs payment scheme but, again, that does not always work and sometimes acts as a barrier for these women.  In order for any Government scheme to be effective and for us to know it is working and delivering in the way intended, it should be reviewed on a regular basis. It is important that the review is then placed before the D\u00e1il so that we have a chance to have that debate but also so that the findings of any such review are incorporated into ensuring any scheme is fit for purpose, delivering, modern, effective and capable of taking into account any illnesses that might arise. It is important that there is a periodic, mandated review, which will give us a chance in this House to have a discussion but will also give the Minister for Health of the day the opportunity to engage with the review and update the scheme as appropriate. We believe the scheme is a good scheme but not reviewing it for decades does not make it effective. It is becoming less effective with time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Cullinane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy David Cullinane  The long-term illness scheme was established under section 59 of the Health Act in 1971. The last time a condition was added to the scheme was in 1975. In the meantime, 51 years of advancement in medical knowledge has been ignored and those suffering from chronic or long-term conditions who cannot get a medical card have been left without support. This, of course, would not have been an issue if the Government had advanced universal health care, but the medical card thresholds have not been touched in over 20 years.  We all agree that the long-term illness scheme should not be needed because anyone who needs care should receive it on the basis of need and not the ability to pay. This is a principle we all signed up to but, unfortunately, there has been little change in medical card entitlements since 2005, and there is no commitment in the programme for Government to address this. This is why we are introducing this legislation. We have no faith that the Government will take any meaningful action to deliver universal healthcare that is free at the point of use. People with long-term and chronic conditions cannot be left on the long finger for another decade while they wait for change.  This Bill is straightforward. It requires the Minister for Health to undertake periodic reviews of the conditions, medications and equipment on the long-term illness scheme to make sure it is fit for purpose. It would require the first review to start within a year and subsequent reviews to take place every three years. There are so many conditions that are not on the long-term illness scheme but should be. One major example of this is endometriosis. Endometriosis is a serious chronic disease and can cause severe pain, heavy and painful periods, infertility, internal scarring and damage to organs including the bowel, bladder and kidneys. It affects at least one in ten women in Ireland and yet it can take years to receive a diagnosis. Steps have been taken to address this under the endometriosis framework. We are all working across this House to improve access to care in Ireland for women but supports for medication and equipment for non-medical cardholders is a major emission from the work under way in the HSE.  Endometriosis is not short term and it is not cheap to manage. It is a long-term condition with a profound impact on quality of life, work, relationships, fertility and mental health. This is exactly the kind of condition the long-term illness scheme should be capable of recognising. I hope that when we move this Bill on Second Stage, the Government will be in a position to support it and add other illnesses to the scheme. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Is the Bill being opposed? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Deputy Mary Butler)  It is not opposed. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Since this is a Private Members' Bill, Second Stage must, under Standing Orders, be taken in Private Members' time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Louise O'Reilly  I move: \"That the Bill be taken in Private Members' time.\" "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Health (Amendment) Bill 2026: First Stage"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_15","debateType":"debate","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/68","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/68\/dail\/1","houseCode":"dail","stage":"1","isBillStage":true,"showAs":"Electricity Regulation (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 2026: First Stage (D\u00e1il)"}},"showAs":"Electricity Regulation (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 2026: First Stage","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":4},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_15","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Kevin Boxer Moran","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Kevin-Boxer-Moran.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Kevin-Boxer-Moran.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Heneghan  I move:  That leave be granted to introduce a Bill entitled an Act to amend the Electricity Regulation Act 1999 to provide for the regulation of direct lines; and to provide for related matters.  Ar dt\u00fas, ba mhaith liom m\u00edle bu\u00edochas a ghabh\u00e1il le gach duine a bh\u00ed ag cabhr\u00fa liom. I wish to briefly acknowledge the people who helped me get elected to the D\u00e1il and also helped me bring this Bill to where it is today. I thank the team at the Office of Parliamentary Legal Advisers, OPLA, who met me multiple times, and the Bill\u2019s Office for its guidance. I thank my colleagues in the Independent Technical Group and the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, and the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, and Department officials for engaging constructively with me. I thank my team at the office, who have listened to me tirelessly, and my professors in DCU, who were patient as I developed in my developing years in engineering.  One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Section 37 of the Electricity Regulation Act has been on the books for 27 years and allows for direct connections, but in practice it has delivered practically none. The conditions are so restrictive that in a quarter of a century, this provision has been rendered entirely meaningless. With development in our grid and of energy infrastructure across the globe, we need to act. My Bill repeals section 37 and replaces it with something I believe actually works.  The scale of the problem we face at the moment is significant. We are curtailing clean energy on a massive scale. We are switching off wind farms, solar installations and renewable sources because the grid cannot absorb what it is generating. At the same time, Irish families and businesses are paying some of the highest electricity bills in Europe. These two facts should not co-exist. The reason they do relates to energy policy failure, and my Bill is trying to fix that. I welcome the constructive work the Government and the Minister have done on this Bill. As the Ceann Comhairle knows, our grid is under enormous pressure but demand is rising and will continue to do so if we look to projected figures across the globe. Connection queues are growing, and the ESB and Eir Grid networks do great work and have great standards but need more resources. The solution to that is with the Commission for Regulation of Utilities, CRU, and that is what my Bill hopes to provide. These networks need tools and resources to manage and my Bill gives them that. I have raised this issue repeatedly in the House and probably sound like a broken record at this stage, talking about private wires. I have raised it at Leaders' Questions, in committees and directly with the CRU three weeks ago, when it confirmed to me, on the record of the committee, that private wires or direct lines will facilitate more renewables which otherwise could not happen.  We are trying to run a modern, renewable system on tools that belong to another era. Countries like Germany are reducing bills by allowing plug-in solar and easier battery roll-out by allowing renewables, and they have safe standards for it. Meanwhile, on another point, we are still making providers install 100,000 analogue remote terminal unit, RTU, boxes which rely on electronic dispatch logging, EDL, and manual dispatch systems. An engineer knows that is absolutely ridiculous. In comparison, operators across Europe and the UK have already moved to secure digital application programming interface, API, systems. We have not. People are struggling with energy costs and we need to act faster to tackle them. While we have been waiting, other countries across the EU have legislated and allowed homes and businesses to reduce their bills. They have increased their FDI and guaranteed investment into their country.  A small manufacturer in a rural town in Ireland is paying crippling energy prices while there is a solar farm built two fields away. Under the current system, there is no legal mechanism to run a direct connection between them. My Bill enables it to be done safely. A school with solar panels on its roof, which during the summer months does not have as much of an energy demand, could directly link them to a nearby nursing home or community hub that would benefit from lower electricity costs. Private wires and direct lines can change this situation and the significant issue we have with data centres can be tackled by allowing them to easily connect to renewable energy.  The CRU should be the single sheriff in town, but to do so, there will be a monetary cost and the Commission for Regulation of Utilities, CRU, will have to get more staff and more powers, which is covered in this hefty Bill. One independent regulator in the CRU, one clear process and a mandatory timeline would increase FDI, increase job security and benefit the Irish people and SMEs. Communities in Austria share energy, reducing energy bills with multiple distribution system operators, DSOs, while we are limited here. The valid concern that I have raised about the community benefit fund, which we see with wind energy, would be addressed directly.  I know that more can be done on this Bill and I look forward to working constructively with members of the Opposition, as I am a solution-focused TD with a firm intention to address matters constructively on Committee Stage. I will not let my ego get in the way of benefiting the Irish people. The Bill is 18 months in development, it has an Office of Parliamentary Legal Advisers, OPLA, stamp and it answers all of the 47 pre-legislative scrutiny recommendations from the climate and energy committee. It is compliant and it is ready. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Is the Bill opposed? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Deputy Mary Butler)  No. I congratulate the Deputy because I know he has put a significant amount of work into getting the Bill ready for First Stage. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Kevin Boxer Moran","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Kevin-Boxer-Moran.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Kevin-Boxer-Moran.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Kevin Boxer Moran  Do not worry. He has a good teacher right beside him. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Congratulations. Since this is a Private Members' Bill, Second Stage must, under Standing Orders, be taken in Private Members' time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Heneghan  I move: \"That the Bill be taken in Private Members' time.\" "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Cuireadh an D\u00e1il ar fionra\u00ed ar 1.32 p.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 2.31 p.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Sitting suspended at 1.32 p.m. and resumed at 2.31 p.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Electricity Regulation (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 2026: First Stage"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_16","debateType":"debate","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/59","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/59\/dail\/2","houseCode":"dail","stage":"2","isBillStage":true,"showAs":"Criminal Justice (International Cooperation on Electronic Evidence and Other Matters) Bill 2026: Second Stage (Resumed) (D\u00e1il)"}},"showAs":"Criminal Justice (International Cooperation on Electronic Evidence and Other Matters) Bill 2026: Second Stage (Resumed)","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_16","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  I must deal with a deferred division relating to the Second Reading motion on the Criminal Justice (International Cooperation on Electronic Evidence and Other Matters) Bill 2026, taken on Tuesday, 16 June 2026. On the question, \"That the Bill be now read a Second Time\", a division was claimed and the division must be taken now. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Criminal Justice (International Cooperation on Electronic Evidence and Other Matters) Bill 2026: Second Stage (Resumed)"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_21","debateType":"debate","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/59","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/59\/dail\/3_sub","houseCode":"dail","stage":"3_sub","isBillStage":false,"showAs":"Criminal Justice (International Cooperation on Electronic Evidence and Other Matters) Bill 2026: Committee and Remaining Stages (D\u00e1il)"}},"showAs":"Criminal Justice (International Cooperation on Electronic Evidence and Other Matters) Bill 2026: Committee and Remaining Stages","counts":{"speechCount":47,"speakerCount":8},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_21","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Ardagh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sections 1 to 7, inclusive, agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"NEW SECTION"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Matt Carthy  I move amendment No. 1:   In page 10, between lines 33 and 34, to insert the following:   \"8. The Minister, having consulted with the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, may by regulation direct that the Director suspend cooperation, in part or in full, with a state in breach of\u2014  (a) the Rule of Law Conditionality Regulation, or  (b) Article 6 of the Treaty on European Union,  or whereby cooperation would place Ireland in breach of Article 6 of the Treaty on European Union.\".  I want to put on the record that I consider the way in which justice legislation is being dealt with on an ongoing basis to be inappropriate and unacceptable.  We are literally just two minutes after voting on Second Stage of this legislation, yet here we are dealing with Committee Stage. Amendments for this Stage had to be submitted before the Second Stage debate had taken place. That is no way to do business. It would be potentially excusable if this were a scenario where we were dealing with something that came out of the blue, but the Minister has been well aware of this legislation coming down the track for some time.  I take the opportunity to congratulate the new Minister of State. I should have done that at the outset. I wish her well and look forward to working with her.  Amendment No. 1 seeks to insert the following into section 8:  The Minister, having consulted with the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, may by regulation direct that the Director suspend cooperation, in part or in full, with a state in breach of\u2014  (a) the Rule of Law Conditionality Regulation, or  (b) Article 6 of the Treaty on European Union,  or whereby cooperation would place Ireland in breach of Article 6 of the Treaty on European Union.\u201d.  The reason for this amendment is fairly straightforward. It is about protecting Irish interests and also the principles of the rule of law, democracy and our own sovereignty, when required. Essentially, the regulations we are dealing with here allow police services in any other European state to request, in the first instance, information in relation to criminal investigations from companies based here. They then establish a governing body that can intervene in cases where there is a dispute or a company fails to comply.  There is a particular responsibility from Ireland\u2019s perspective because we have such a large IT sector. This means there will potentially be a huge number of such applications. The Department\u2019s own guidance note states that over 600 service providers based in Ireland are expected to be designated as an addressee in Ireland. It is anticipated that the number of production orders issued to service providers based in Ireland will well exceed 300,000 annually. That is a complete outlier. In contrast, Irish authorities are expected to send 2,000 requests to others. Of all other EU states, therefore, we are likely to request that about 2,000 production orders be fulfilled in any given year whereas 300,000 are expected to be requested from Ireland. They will come from all over. In practice, then, the expectation of how this will work in practice is that police services will request information from IT companies and it will be given over. Where it is not, though, the new body will be given the responsibility.  In principle, all of that is very important and welcome. We absolutely accept the principle, when we consider that many criminal investigations - I think virtually all - have an electronic component and where either text messages, server data or emails are required. We want that to be a seamless process in 95% of cases. It is also important to acknowledge, however, what these requests will be based on. When the justice committee received a briefing from the Department, a briefing that I think the committee unanimously agreed was unsatisfactory in respect of quite a number of questions going unanswered, the officials acknowledged that, \u201cIn theory, the regulation is based on the idea of full faith in credit in the member states' legal systems.\" This means that the entire premise of us adopting this legislation is accepting at face value that the legal system in every other EU state is and forever will be operating in accordance with the rule of law and the treaties of the European Union. As Deputy Mark Ward indicated during the Second Stage debate, however, \u201ctheory\u201d is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence. We have seen how easy it is for democratic backsliding to happen. We saw this in Hungary in particular, but also in other states where rule-of-law issues have become a major concern. There is always a fear that if a government system does not have the judicial and policing independence we would take for granted here in Ireland, we could have a potential attempt to use this legislation to do all sorts of things.  The difficulty is that once this legislation is adopted as part of an EU framework, then we are locked into it. That is the ratchet mechanism in how EU policy works. Once you are in, you cannot get out. We know the challenges that the EU-Israel Association Agreement has created. We signed up to it - and I think, very clearly, we should not have - and now we cannot get out of it, despite the fact that Israel is committing genocide. It is not tenable, and I do not think it should be accepted as just part of the process, that if another member state, for whatever reason, has a government that tries to abuse these regulations, we have no option but to deal with it. If we have a situation where the courts in another state have been manipulated or become less independent than we would accept as a given, and we do not have some form of control here, then we would just have to accede to every request that comes through. That is, ultimately, what is in place. These are not the politics of efficiency or harmonisation. These are actually the politics of potentially damaging our own justice system to facilitate the lowest common denominator across Europe.  The difficulty here, and the reason I think this amendment is so important, is that this is potentially the last chance the Oireachtas will have to put some form of protection in place. To be very clear on what the protection is, it is not looking for anything other than for the Minister to have the authority, in conjunction with the Minister for foreign affairs, to realise that there is a particular area of concern and then direct that there be a suspension of co-operation to protect Ireland\u2019s legal framework and position, thereby potentially protecting Irish citizens and other European Union citizens. The amendment further states that this would be important in the event that by co-operating and facilitating one member state in breach of Article 6 of the EU treaties, we would breach the treaties ourselves by facilitating it.  We discussed this at the justice committee, and we received nowhere near the required level of assurance that we would not end up in a situation where we were sharing very sensitive information with a police authority that might have some form of negative agenda. This has now been put clearly on the record of the House. I do not want to see a situation in ten years or any future point where we have Ministers shrugging their shoulders and saying they have no option but to facilitate such and such a government in what is clearly a nefarious request because we are bound to do so by a law we adopted in these Houses. Members will have an opportunity to put in place this protection, and I am encouraging and urging the Minister of State to adopt and accept this amendment, or at least give an indication that she will put forward a similar amendment that will, ultimately, do the same thing. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Ardagh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration (Deputy Catherine Ardagh)  I thank the Deputy very much for his amendment. I understand his concerns in relation to fundamental rights and countries not adhering to the rule of law as we might in Ireland.  However, I regret that we cannot accept his proposed amendment. The e-evidence package provides for co-operation between member states of the EU. It does not allow any member state to unilaterally suspend its operation, and the proposed amendment would be in clear breach of our legal obligations under EU law.  On a point of principle, giving a member of the Executive the power to interfere with the exercise of judicial functions by a judicial authority within the EU would be a breach of the democratic principles of the separation of powers under the rule of law. The director is being made independent specifically to prevent any suggestion that a director might be subject to influence or direction from a member of the Executive as regards the implementation of judicial orders. That would not be right. The EU regulation already contains certain safeguards, including the provision in paragraph 3 of Article 1, which states that the regulation shall not have the effect of modifying the obligation to respect the fundamental rights and legal principles as enshrined in the charter and in Article 6 of the Treaty on European Union.  The regulation also has specific safeguards. Under Article 8, the Irish enforcing authority must be notified of incoming European production orders unless they relate to an offence in the issuing state committed by a person who resides in that state, and execution can be refused. Article 12 sets out the grounds for refusal. Article 10 provides a channel through which the service provider may alert the Irish enforcing authority when it considers the order would interfere with freedom of expression.  The Deputy might ask what happens after the director has been notified of a production order under Article 8 of the e-evidence measure. What are the practical steps? Where a director, as an enforcing authority, is notified by the issuing authority of a European production order, the director must assess the order and, where appropriate, raise one of several grounds for refusal. Following an assessment, the director can raise the following grounds for refusal. The director can state that the data requested are protected by immunities or privileges under Irish law; that the data requested are covered by rules on the determination or limitation of criminal liability that relate to freedom of the press, freedom of expression and other media; that execution of the order would entail a manifest breach of relevant fundamental rights, as set out in Article 6 of the Treaty on European Union and in the charter, which speaks to the points the Deputy is raising on fundamental rights; that the execution of the order would be contrary to the principle of ne bis in idem , the double jeopardy concept; and that the conduct for which the order has been issued does not constitute an offence under Irish law, unless it concerns an offence listed within the categories of offences set out in Annex IV, all of which are offences under Irish law, if it is punishable in the issuing state by a custodial sentence or detention order for a maximum period of at least three years.  Before raising any of the above refusal grounds, the director, as enforcing authority, has to contact the issuing authority to discuss the matter. The issuing authority may decide to withdraw, adapt or maintain the order. If there is no solution, the director may raise one of the grounds for refusal. If the director, as enforcing authority, raises one of the refusal grounds, they must inform the addressee and the issuing authority. The addressee then must stop the execution of the European production order and not transfer the data, and the issuing authority has to withdraw the order. I hope that helps the Deputy regarding his amendment and gives him some comfort. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Matt Carthy  It does not because, with due respect, the Minister of State is missing the point. The amendment is in respect of specific states and the ability to suspend co-operation, in part or in full, based on the list of scenarios I have set out. Arguably and hopefully, the provision would never need to be utilised, but it would be negligent not to put a safeguard in place. People might ask when or how what I describe could happen. Consider where the Hungarian Government got very close to in terms of control of the courts and the breakdown of independence in the Judiciary and the police. It is not beyond our wildest imagination that we could end up in a similar situation. What the Minister has outlined is a very convoluted process whereby each individual application that might come from a state would have to be dealt with through the process as outlined.  I understand what the Minister is saying about potential Executive powers. Again, however, the motion as it is set out states it would involve the Minister for Justice, Home Affairs and Migration in consultation with the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade. Essentially, that implies it will be a Government decision. There would be very real concerns and very valid reasons a Cabinet would come to the point that it would invoke the measure, and it would only be on the basis that it was actually protecting the rule of law, the conditionality regulation, protecting our own Constitution and protecting the EU treaty frameworks in respect of democracy and the rule of law. I hope such a provision will never be needed, but I can tell the Minister of State that if the protection is needed and we do not have it in place, these Houses will be judged very harshly.  My next point is critical because this is a debate that probably is not happening to the same extent in all EU member states. Considering the prevalence of the companies in respect of which orders and requests will be made in this State, we are going to play a disproportionate role in the decisions made. With 300,000 requests annually, I fear this will become routine for any member state seeking information.  For most criminal investigations, we want a seamless process. We want Irish authorities to be able to contact other authorities to seek electronic data and to get the information very quickly. We have to be confident, however, that all such requests are made on the basis of a genuine need to address a criminal issue rather than for some of the more concerning reasons for which requests have been in other states around the world. In this regard, the type of power in question has been used to curtail people\u2019s freedom, not only freedom of expression but also freedom of movement and other fundamental human rights.  Again, I ask for support for the amendment. I am urging that we put in place a protection. This is what it is. Ultimately, we are talking about a protection that we hope and expect will never need to be used but without which I fear we will be adopting legislation that is going to be very good only in theory, as the officials themselves said to the committee, and that ultimately will not provide the confidence in our legislation that we should be demanding as that legislation would be underpinned by EU regulations we would have no power to amend in the future. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Gary Gannon  I wish the Minister of State well in her new role. I am sure she will find it to be very fast-moving and to have many different parts. We are finding that sometimes the hurry does not result in things operating at their most effective. Anyone who walked down to the District Court, the Central Criminal Court or the High Court today would have seen evidence of that.  This Bill is very important. That we do not have rule of law or an amendment built in at national level is very important to note. There is a huge responsibility on Ireland specifically. What we are doing here is creating a criminal justice international co-operation office in Ireland that is going to be different from what is in most other European states because of the prevalence here of the tech companies, including the Googles, Metas, LinkedIns and TikToks, which have headquarters here. To that very important office, we are allocating a budget of \u20ac2.8 million and 30 staff, who will be sent from another part of the Department of justice. The consequences of the decisions those staff will have to make with their very small budget are enormous. Do we think it is unimaginable that at some point they will have to make a determination on surveillance abuses or the use of spyware against journalists or Opposition politicians? Do we think they will not have to deal with requests that come under the heading of \u201cdemocratic backsliding from some states\u201d? They will.  If we do not have an application of our own values within those decision-making processes, we become complicit in them. That is why I will be supporting this amendment. That is why I will vote against a Bill which I mostly believe in. The rushed nature, lack of structure and inability to budget for the unforeseen makes this impossible for me to vote for. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Ardagh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Catherine Ardagh  As we all know, we are members of the European Union and the Members opposite know well that we cannot include this provision. It is in breach of the treaties and our obligations as a member of the European Union. We all know that we have legal obligations in relation to this regulation and we simply cannot ignore that. If we were to enact the amendment, service providers would still remain obligated to execute orders. That would be without oversight from directors. For the reasons I have stated, I simply cannot accept the Deputies' amendment. We cannot rewrite the regulation. There is no legal basis for Ireland to include such a provision. The Irish Executive cannot unilaterally decide to suspend legal co-operation entirely with another EU member state that is party to this instrument. To do so would place us in breach of our legal obligations under EU law. There are safeguards in the regulation to address instances with the execution of a specific order that might be in breach of fundamental rights. I set out in detail in my initial contribution these safeguards.  This regulation shall not have the effect of modifying the obligation to respect the fundamental rights and legal principles enshrined in the Charter and in Article 6 of the Treaty of the European Union. The regulation also has specific safeguards whereby under Article 8, the Irish enforcing authority must be notified of incoming European production orders unless they relate to an offence in the issuing state committed by a person who resides in that state. Execution can be refused. Article 12 sets out the grounds on which they may be refused and Article 10 provides a channel through which the service provider may alert the Irish enforcing authority when it considers the order would interfere with the freedom of expression. At this stage, I have nothing more to add. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sections 8 to 16, inclusive, agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 17"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  Amendments Nos. 2 and 3 are related and may be discussed together, by agreement. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Matt Carthy  I move amendment No. 2:  In page 15, between lines 14 and 15, to insert the following:  \u201c(g) ensure minimal administrative burden is placed on small to medium sized service providers.\u201d.  There is real concern about the administrative burden this legislation could place on small and medium enterprises, SMEs, particularly in the IT sector. The Government conducted an SME test and I will talk more about that later but it found that the legislative impact on the SME sector will be significantly greater than it will be on larger companies and that there will be administrative and compliance costs.  This amendment is simple but it will be incredibly useful. It is to put in a provision on page 15 of the Bill after line 14 to \"ensure minimal administrative burden is placed on small to medium sized service providers\u201d.  The amendment is aspirational in many respects but it also sets out a template. It is important to say the vast majority of requests that will come through due to this legislation will come to the largest companies in the world, in effect, which happen to be headquartered here. The SME test carried out by the Department is a very useful document. It estimated that the five largest service providers will receive about 95% of all current cross-border requests in Europe and that even if there are substantial changes, about 90% will go to those companies. I do not think anybody will feel much sympathy if those companies experience an additional administration or cost burden to fulfil their obligations. The irony is companies of that size are probably going to end up making savings as a result of the EU directive. Because they operate on such a global scale, having a unified framework across the EU will be of benefit to them. There are the big five, and you could even say big ten to include the vast majority, but 600 service providers are likely to be impacted as addressees in Ireland. A significant proportion of those are going to be small, Irish-based SMEs. When we are talking about, as I mentioned earlier, 300,000 requests annually, even a small proportion coming to those SMEs could be an important point.  The potential effect on SMEs has been identified by the Department in its analysis. It stated:  For SMEs in particular, the requirement under the e-Evidence Package for authorities to nominate an addressee as a single point of contact for law enforcement authorities seeking to access electronic evidence will make it easier and more affordable for service providers to authenticate production orders. [However] ... the most significant burden on SMEs identified by the Commission\u2019s assessment is the obligation to designate (and empower) a legal representative ... For SMEs [and again, this is all taken directly from the Department's regulatory analysis] not already engaged in voluntary direct cooperation activities, the e-Evidence Package presents a new regulatory burden that comes with potential legal, administrative and technical costs. SMEs that do not designate an addressee, for example, or fail to comply with the e-Evidence Directive or Regulation will be exposed to administrative penalties.  Nobody is suggesting that should be a byball and that SMEs should be therefore exempt from having to comply with the directive, but when we talk about SMEs some people have the idea that we mean Enterprise Ireland companies, whereas in some cases we could be talking about companies with two or three employees, even though they may be operating in this area.  The e-evidence regulation requires the development of a centralised IT system. No one should know the potential costs of that better than this Government because every time it tries to do one, it has ended up spending clean fortunes. It is clear that \"While many large service provides will create their own infrastructure to connect with the decentralised IT system, a requirement for SMEs to do the same would have a disproportionate impact.\" Again, those are not my words but those from the Department\u2019s report. That report says \"consideration is being given to the development of a web-based interface which will allow service providers to communicate securely with authorities without having to establish their own infrastructure.\" I would welcome an update on whether that has happened.  The really interesting thing about the SME test the Department conducted is that it asks very clear questions and gives yes-no answers, which is somewhat unique. One of the questions is \"Is the new policy, primary or secondary legislation, or regulatory compliance requirement relevant for SMEs?\" The answer given was \"Yes\". The test then asks, \"Are SME impacts likely to be more substantial than on other companies, for example, in terms of adverse effects?\" The answer was unequivocally \"Yes\". There is a whole section about the consultations that took place and it says \"Department officials engaged bilaterally with relevant industry stakeholders and with the SME representative bodies to incorporate their views where appropriate.\" That is important, but nothing in the legislation puts an onus on the director of the new body to take into consideration all of that. This is going to impact large companies and medium companies but it is also going to impact micro companies, which have between one and nine employees. As I mentioned, some of these could be very small indeed. Again, the question the Department asked of itself was \"Has an estimate been carried out of the numbers of micro, small and medium companies affected directly or indirectly by the measure?\" The answer to that question was \"No\".  I would have thought that if the Department had gone to the effort of carrying out an analysis of whether this would have a disproportionate impact on smaller enterprises and it came to the conclusion that it would, the next thing it would do is ask precisely how many companies it was going to have an impact on and ask what the Department and the Government could do, within legislation, to provide supports. Another question is \"Will the proposed changes result in any of the following impacts for SMEs?\" With respect to additional administrative costs, the answer was \"Yes\", as it was with respect to additional compliance costs. Across the board there is recognition.  The Department's paper sets out a number of mitigation measures that will be put in place, including:  - A \u2018one-stop-shop\u2019 for e-Evidence international cooperation  - Development of a web portal ... [which I have asked for an update on]  - Consideration of the impact of penalties based on size and financial situation  - No requirement for service providers to collect, compile and report data to Member States or the Commission  However, none of that is an assurance efforts will be made to ensure a minimal administrative burden is placed on small to medium-sized service providers. That is why this is a very simple amendment, but it is crucial because these enterprises are Irish based in large part. They are not going to up and leave as a result of changes to tax policy or international regulatory frameworks. These are the people who could potentially become the next generation of IT powerhouses, and more important, they could be based in Ireland. We need to be supporting these companies to navigate their way to a point where perhaps some of them will be able to compete, I hope in a better-regulated world, with some of the other large multinational operations. I hope they will be based in Ireland and will be part of the Irish framework as opposed to the international framework, which can be a bit like the wild west.  I ask the Minister of State to support this amendment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Ardagh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Catherine Ardagh  I thank the Deputy for his amendment. He sought information on the e-portal. Connection to the decentralised IT system for SMEs will be via a web portal and access will be provided to their nominated addressee. If the data being returned is less than 25 Mb it will be sent via the system, but if it is greater it will be sent via another secure means and the cost associated with this will be minimal.  Unfortunately, I cannot accept amendments Nos. 2 and 3.  The language of amendment No. 2 is quite vague and it would be effectively meaningless in practice. The legal obligations on service providers are determined by EU regulation and directive. It is not open to the director to alter them. If there is a case for non-compliance, there will be an administrative burden on service providers who are subject to investigation but that cannot be avoided if a proper, fair and impartial investigation is to be carried out.  Amendment No. 3 seeks to introduce a double criminality provision. However, the question of double criminality is determined by the EU regulation. It is addressed in Article 12(1)(d) of the regulation, which provides one of the grounds for refusal of a European production order by an enforcing authority such as a director. It states:  the conduct for which the order has been issued does not constitute an offence under the law of the enforcing State, unless it concerns an offence listed within the categories of offences set out in Annex IV, as indicated by the issuing authority in the EPOC, if it is punishable in the issuing State by a custodial sentence or a detention order for a maximum period of at least three years.  Annex IV contains a list of 32 categories of serious offences, all of which constitute offences under Irish law. It is not open to us to vary this EU provision, which is legally binding on the director. In the case of Irish law, the regulation is not in conflict with the intention behind the amendment, so the amendment is redundant. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Matt Carthy  My apologies. I meant to speak to amendment No. 3. It is actually sometimes useful to get the Minister's response before speaking to an amendment.  I would encourage the Minister of State to look back at the Oireachtas justice committee. There was quite substantive discussion with officials on dual criminality, particularly how the civil law system that operates in most of Europe relates to Ireland's common law tradition. If the Minister of State were to review the transcript of that engagement, she would see clearly that the current wording of the legislation failed to fully reassure members this was adequately addressed. The justice committee has the benefit of having members who are much more legally astute than I am. They are able to probe these questions in great detail. The legal practitioners on the committee raised the most serious concerns in respect of this provision. While acknowledging provisions within the e-evidence package, we believe there needs to be strong, robust provisions in any legislation to ensure information will only be provided where any alleged offence constitutes an offence under Irish criminal law. That requires an explicit provision in domestic law.  The Minister of State described amendment No. 2 as very broad and virtually meaningless but it would insert a guidance to the new agency. That is something that has been included in other legislation, where there are guidances to ensure one of the agency's roles is not to overburden a particular sector. The Minister of State says this is EU regulations and directives and there is no ability to amend it but Ministers always seem to forget or ignore when talking about EU regulations and directives in this House that the Government signed up to them at an EU level. Any gaps and failings are failings and gaps on the part of the Government. That needs to be recognised.  Amendment No. 3 is important. I will press it but will not call a vote. I will call a vote on amendment No. 2 because it is really important there be provision in the legislation, not to allow companies escape the provisions of the directive, whose importance we acknowledge, but to recognise this will place an administrative and cost burden on some companies that will not be an issue for the larger companies. We need as legislators to say clearly we want to minimise that administrative and cost burden. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Ardagh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Catherine Ardagh  The Department is not unsympathetic to small and medium-sized enterprises, which are the backbone of our economy. That is very much acknowledged. The web portal that will be used will have a minimal cost. The vast majority of orders in these cases will be directed to a small number of large service providers. However, where a small to medium-sized service provider is subject to an e-evidence order and holds electronic evidence related to the investigation of serious crime, it will have obligations under this regulation. That will be the cost of doing business in this industry. To relieve service providers of these obligations would likely create a gap criminals would exploit by moving to services offered by SMEs and would seriously undermine the effectiveness of the evidence package.  That said, the provisions in sections 38 and 40 are specifically designed to allow the director to remedy breaches by service providers without the need to proceed to investigation or the imposition of fines. In particular, the director can seek a compliance report to clarify the issues and may enter into an agreement with the service provider setting out the steps to be taken to remedy any issues identified. Furthermore, there is a legal obligation on the legal officers under section 50(2)(f) to give special consideration to small and medium-sized enterprises when considering the imposition of fines. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Matt Carthy  I move amendment No. 3:  In page 15, between lines 14 and 15, to insert the following:  \u201c(g) ensure the conduct for which orders have been received constitute an offence under Irish law.\u201d. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Amendments Nos. 4 and 5 are related and may be discussed together. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Matt Carthy  I move amendment No. 4:  In page 15, between lines 25 and 26, to insert the following:  \"(g) the Data Protection Commission.\".  Like the previous amendments, these are simple proposals. Amendment No. 4 seeks to facilitate the office of the director of criminal justice international co-operation in making representations to or assisting the Data Protection Commission, DPC, in regard to the e-evidence package in the same way the legislation provides for such co-operation in the case of the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n, the Corporate Enforcement Authority, Fiosr\u00fa, An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na and the Revenue Commissioners. Amendment No. 5 does something very similar in facilitating the office of the director to enter into an information-sharing agreement with the Data Protection Commission in the same way it can do so with those other offices.  There are significant implications for data protection in Ireland arising from this Bill. To some extent, we will, in effect, be ceding sovereignty to courts in other jurisdictions. That is why the facilitation I am proposing should be included. At the committee hearing, the departmental officials stated that the Data Protection Commission did not consider it appropriate that it be the enforcement authority, and the Department accepted that. I, too, am willing to accept it. However, if the Department engaged with the commission at one point, as acknowledged by the officials, that suggests it believed at that point that the commission might be the appropriate body to deal with these matters. That surely is an acknowledgement that there is an overlap of functions or at least a relevance. Given everything we have already spoken about, it would be a welcome assurance for the legislation at least to formally facilitate engagement between the two bodies even if it did not mandate what that might look like at this time.  These are mainly technical amendments but they are important ones. I urge the Government to accept them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mark Ward  This is my first engagement with the Minister of State, Deputy Ardagh. I wish her well in her role and look forward to more engagements with her, particularly in respect of youth justice, which is an area in which I have a lot of interest. I look forward to working with her from the Opposition benches in a tangible and constructive way.  As my colleague said, the Bill provides for engagement and information sharing between the office of the director and An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n and other bodies. We are seeking provision for the same engagement with the DPC. Some concerns were expressed at the committee regarding the way the Bill has been rolled out. I will not rehash all the arguments that have been made already, including by me on Second Stage. The manner in which the Bill has been brought through the Houses of the Oireachtas has seen Second Stage taken yesterday, with us going straight to Committee Stage today without the proper pre-legislative scrutiny that was needed. It may be that there is no need for the DPC to have a role in this but we do not know that because we did not have the time to tease out that question. We did not have proper scrutiny of the Bill. In that context, I support my colleague's amendments to provide for an ongoing engagement with the DPC. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Ardagh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Catherine Ardagh  I thank Deputy Carthy for his amendments Nos. 4 and 5. I thank Deputy Ward for his comments on my appointment. Regretfully, I cannot accept the amendments. The definition of \"public authority\" in section 17(4) is intended to cover those Irish public authorities that have a law enforcement role and that may need to seek a European production order in the context of a criminal investigation into serious crime. The director in the role of central authority responsible for administration and transmission of such orders to other jurisdictions, and the receipt of data under Article 4.6 of the EU regulation, may have a role in assisting those bodies in the transmission of such orders and to pass on data received from service providers. That is provided for in section 17(1)(f).  Given that there could be a flow of data between the office of the director and those public authorities, provision is made in section 19 for information-sharing agreements to ensure the proper safeguarding of such data. The Data Protection Commission will not have a role in the issuing of European production orders and, therefore, it would not be appropriate to include a reference to the commission in sections 17 or 19. The Data Protection Commission does have a role in ensuring data is processed and the rights of data subjects are respected, and extensive powers to investigate any potential wrongdoing lie therein. The office of the director is subject to the provisions of the Data Protection Act 2018. The Data Protection Commission was consulted about this legislation and did not seek to have any special information-sharing agreements with the office.  I hope that answers the Deputies' concerns. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Matt Carthy  It would be useful if the Minister of State could outline in greater detail exactly what was involved in the consultation with the Data Protection Commission. It has been referenced both at the committee and here in the D\u00e1il that there was such engagement with the commission. We have been told that it did not see itself as the appropriate enforcement authority and, as we have heard from the Minister of State just now, that it did not seek additional provision in the legislation. Was the question asked of the Data Protection Commission as to whether such a provision would be helpful or potentially useful in the outworking of this legislation? Without knowing the context of the engagement, it is too simplistic to say the departmental officials spoke to people in the commission about the legislation and they never mentioned this issue. Were there formal sit-down engagements and, if so, was the Minister or a Minister of State present for any of those engagements, or was it all done through written correspondence? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Ardagh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Catherine Ardagh  On the Deputy's specific question about the format of the liaison with the Data Protection Commission, there was a lot of interaction with it about the scheme of the Bill. I advise Deputies that my Department, in accordance with Article 36.4 of the GDPR and section 84(12) of the Data Protection Act 2018, the Data Protection Commission was consulted about the specifics of the drafting of the Bill throughout. This was done in writing, not orally. The Data Protection Commission has carefully examined all data protection-related measures in the Bill and the related European measures at a very high level, and it did not identify a need for any such amendments or explicit provisions allowing for information-sharing agreements between the office and the Data Protection Commission.  I hope that answers the Deputy's question. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Matt Carthy  It does not really. I understand that the Minister of State is only new in the role and I do not expect her to know the details of that. I think she is confirming that there was no actual physical engagement and this was all done via emails or written submission. The question I asked was whether the question was put to the Data Protection Commission. Is it the case that all agencies received an email with the draft Bill, telling them to highlight any concerns they may have with it, and if one did not come back, it was assumed that the Minister could get up and say that agency did not identify any need for additional powers? For example, did each of the State bodies referenced in the legislation, off its own bat, request to be included in the legislation or were those bodies in the initial drafts? Had this paragraph (g) about the Data Protection Commission been included in the first draft, is there reason to believe that the Data Protection Commission would have objected to it? If so, perhaps we could get a sense of the thinking about why the Data Protection Commission would not want to be included in the legislation in this manner. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Ardagh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Catherine Ardagh  As I said, this legislation applies to criminal law enforcement bodies. We know that the Data Protection Commission is not one such body. We consulted the DPC about the general scheme and it commented on the benefit of information sharing with listed public authorities. An expert team from the DPC would have been in touch with my Department for detailed engagement on a written basis, which is not unusual.  At this stage, I have nothing further to add about the matter. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 17 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 18 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 19"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Matt Carthy  I move amendment No. 5:  In page 16, between lines 12 and 13, to insert the following:  \u201c(g) the Data Protection Commission.\u201d. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 19 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 20"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Matt Carthy  I move amendment No. 6:  In page 16, between lines 23 and 24, to insert the following:  \u201c(4) Such an annual report shall contain statistical data in relation to\u2014  (a) the number of orders which were notified to the Director,  (b) the number of orders that were refused,  (c) the number of agreements entered into with service providers under subsection 40(1) and the status thereof by category,  (d) the number of instances whereby a court confirmed, set aside, replaced, or remitted either the decision or financial penalty of an adjudicating officer,  (e) the number of instances whereby the Director failed to sanction or refuse an order within the required timeframe, and  (f) the whole-time equivalent allocation, by cost, by role,  including the data category requested, the addressees, the situation (emergency case or not), grounds for refusal by category, number of court appearances, by country of origin.\u201d.  Going back to our infamous committee meeting, which I know was before the Minister of State was appointed, we expected the meeting to be a short, technical briefing, but it raised serious concerns among members about legislation that we thought would be fairly straightforward. One question that was asked that could not be answered related to the potential scale of what this body could cost the Irish taxpayer annually. Somebody mentioned that we were kicking off with a \u20ac2.8 million budget this year, which would provide for 29 staff and associated costs. We also know that there are suggestions that we could end up with 150 staff in this body. We are told that the State is expected to receive in excess of 300,000 orders each year. We also know that the Department seemed to think, or at least provided evidence, that the impact on the courts would be minimal and the Courts Service itself has said that limited data is available about the number of cases that may arise after commencement. That is probably a diplomatic way of saying that we have not a clue. It goes on to suggest that the Department's projections may prove optimistic.  I am quite concerned that after the summer, when this comes into effect, combined with the as yet unknown outworkings of the reform to barristers' pay and so on, and when we have the EU Presidency putting pressure on the ability of garda\u00ed to attend courts, we may be facing a substantial backlog in the courts, even worse than is already the case. Apart from all of these things, we know that many questions have not been answered but we do not know much else.  This amendment is intended to ensure that, at a minimum, the Oireachtas can be assured that there will be an annual report that will lay out how the office is functioning so that we can be kept abreast on an ongoing basis. Paragraph (c) is necessary so that we have a view of the number of instances where the office is engaging in what might be called corrective behaviour rather than levelling fines against service providers in breach of their obligations. Paragraph (d) would help to inform how the office is functioning, if its decisions are actually standing up to scrutiny and, crucially, the impact, if any, it is having on the Courts Service. Paragraph (e) would likewise provide a view about whether the office was meeting its obligations. Paragraph (f) is included to provide insight into the efficiencies and effectiveness of the office, how a large organisation like this can develop and the bill that the Irish taxpayer will be expected to foot for this facet of European co-operation. I can almost pre-empt that the Minister of State will say that this is not necessary and it is open to Members to submit parliamentary questions, but given the concerns about the potential annual costs of this new body, I believe it is important that, from day 1, we set out that the organisation will have to report on these matters in an annual report so that there can be transparency and scrutiny.  We know that there is an issue with the Minister of State's Department. Maybe the Minister of State can put it on her to-do list. It is what I would call the refusal and evasiveness of her Department when dealing with any parliamentary questions.  For virtually every body under the Department\u2019s authority at this point, we get responses back to parliamentary questions saying that the Minister will not be held accountable and will not provide any information. It is not the same in every other Department. Many other Departments will provide information or, at a minimum, seek out information for the benefit of Deputies. However, the Department of justice has got to a point where it is just refusing point blank. I would say it probably makes as many refusals to parliamentary questions as it gives answers. I assume this body will be the same and the Department will again refuse to answer any parliamentary questions, so we will be dependent on the annual report to actually provide information not only to Members of the Oireachtas, but also to members of the public. Therefore, we need to ensure that the annual report is actually detailed and provides the type of information that would be useful for us in analysing the effectiveness of this body. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mark Ward  Having an annual report on something that is new - a new Bill, a new operation or a new entity - is an absolute no-brainer just to see how things are working. We have no idea of the scale of cost of this and where it will end up. Based on the bit of information we got at the pre-legislative scrutiny stage, it is starting with 29 staff. It could be dealing with up to 300,000 orders each year and there are some suggestions that the staff number could rise to 150. Will 150 be the maximum number of staff in this new body? Do we expect 300,000 orders a year or could that rise?  There is the potential for this to be a runaway train. We do not know where it is going to end up. That is why I am saying that having an annual report to report on how many staff are coming in and the cost of it is a no-brainer and it will give us the evidence to see if we need to put more resources into it. The office may have more resources than it needs and we might be able to deploy those resources somewhere else where they are really needed.  I also have concerns about the impact on our court system, which is already bursting at the seams. Nothing I have heard so far, yesterday on Second Stage or at the pre-legislative scrutiny, has given me any confidence that this operation will not put any additional pressure on our court system. Does the Minister of State have any evidence that the court system will not be unduly impacted by all of these orders coming in? In relation to the annual report we are asking for, and in addition to the costs, the staffing levels and the other matters that were outlined by Deputy Carthy and me, the annual report could provide the evidence of how this is impacting on our court system.  Having an annual report on something that is new is a no-brainer. It is best practice for anybody bringing in something new at the very start. Whether a small or medium-sized enterprise, a multinational or a government, when bringing in something new, there should be an annual report to see how things are working. The Minister of State should consider it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Gary Gannon  The audacity of such an amendment from Deputy Carthy. Imagine wanting an annual report on a brand new structure, a brand new office, that we are told will probably have 300,000 requests and will try to hold to account some of the largest corporations in the world that may be liable to fines of 2% of their annual turnover. This democratic Chamber, which is supposedly one of accountability where we hold account, is simply asking for an annual report and somehow I assume that will not be the case.  I do not blame to Minister of State at all for this, but there is an arrogance that emanates from the Department of justice. It shows itself in the number of parliamentary questions that are declined and how it deals with Bills of considerable substance. Last week, the annulment of historical convictions for homosexual men was lumped in with the same Bill dealing with whether rape counselling notes should be allowed in trials. Today, we had to submit amendments for the Third Stage of a Bill before Second Stage had even concluded.  In the current environment in which this Chamber operates, this is an audacious amendment that simply asks for the means to allow us to scrutinise whether a new institution is actually working. I imagine that the amendment will be declined, which is a shame and shows how things have developed in this Chamber. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Ardagh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Catherine Ardagh  I know that time is sometimes very precious in this House. Section 20 of the legislation requires the publication of an annual report. That is set out very clearly in the legislation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Gary Gannon  Will it impact on the Courts Service? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Ardagh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Catherine Ardagh  The annual report shall provide information as the director considers appropriate or as the director may direct. The section deliberately did not prescribe in detail exactly what statistical data should be included, as we are setting up a new entity. Until we have some experience of how it operates, it would be premature to determine what statistical information is most relevant and available. My Department believes that we should maintain a flexible approach at this stage but I will put on the record that I see no reason for the information referred to in the amendment not to be included in future in an annual report. I also remind Deputies that the Freedom of Information Act will apply, so there will be no question of hiding information.  In any case, most of the statistical information will be provided by the director to the Minister under section 21. Also under section 21, the director must submit to the Minister information on the number of notifications made under Article 8 and the number of production orders refused. This must be done by type of data requested, address and grounds for refusal.  Deputies were looking for further information on the impact on our court system. I assure Deputies that this impact will be minimal. For the purposes of this Bill, our courts will principally be involved in confirming compliance decisions, the imposition of fines and appeals. Our courts will otherwise not have a significant role in incoming orders issued by courts based in other member states.  In relation to the costs, the potential number of cases that will be going through the office and the number of requests made to the office, current estimates suggest that approximately 300,000 orders will be sent to service providers based in the State each year. This is based on the number of law enforcement requests currently received by the largest service providers based here. However, as only certain types of data request require a notification to be sent to the enforcing authority, the office of the director of criminal justice international co-operation will receive only a subset of those orders for review. Current estimates suggest that the office could receive around 24,000 notifications each year and as the e-evidence package represents a new legal framework for obtaining electronic evidence across the EU, the exact number of orders that will be issued and, consequently, the number of notifications sent to the office will only be known once the regulation comes into effect.  Deputies were also interested in the proposed cost of the office. An allocation of \u20ac2.8 million was secured in budget 2026 to establish the new office of the director of criminal justice international co-operation. The figure of \u20ac2.8 million reflects both pay and non-pay costs associated with setting up the office in 2026. This is a part-year cost. The approach to establishing the office as agreed by the Government has always been that it will do so on a phased basis. The Department has been focused on the progression of the legislation and the recruitment of the director, which is nearing completion. The process of recruitment of staff of the office is under way and my officials are engaging with the Public Appointments Service on that matter. It is expected that 20 staff will be recruited to the office by the end of the year and the recruitment process will continue as and when required on a phased basis.  I hope that answers the Deputies\u2019 questions. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Matt Carthy  I welcome that the Minister of State has put on the record that she believes the information set out in this amendment should be provided in the annual report. That is important. However, I think there is a tacit acknowledgement in what the Minister of State has said that there will be no obligation whatsoever on the new entity to actually provide that because it has been given direction by the legislation to produce an annual report with no direction as to what should be in it. It is like asking 20 children in a class to write a report on their trip to the zoo, which could result in 20 very different versions of what was actually important apart from, hopefully, all of them agreeing that it was enjoyed by all.  A couple of things need to be said in respect of accountability.  First, there is a requirement for the Minister to receive information from the new body. Is the Minister obliged or committed to publishing that or sharing it with the rest of the Oireachtas and to being answerable in respect of it?  Second, the Minister said the body will be subject to freedom of information, FOI, requests. That is not an appropriate mechanism for transparency. Most of the reasons FOIs have to be submitted in the first place are because there is a lack of transparency around a particular matter, obviously personal issues excepted. I do not know why we would put a stipulation on a statutory body to produce an annual report without any detail as to what should be in it. I recall legislation I dealt with directly regarding the Agri Food Regulator and another body I was dealing with. The provisions around the annual reports were very detailed precisely because the Houses of the Oireachtas wanted to set out very clearly the information they expect in a report. If we do not actually set out what it is we are looking for in an annual report, invariably what ends up happening is that people compare one annual report with another to see what is missing. That is not the way we should be commencing this process at all. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mark Ward  I thank the Minister of State for giving us some sort of clarity that there will be an annual report. I refer to the process yesterday and today. We were here yesterday for Second Stage and the senior Minister got up and gave his opening statement. We all stood up and asked him some questions we were hoping would be referred to in his concluding remarks. Those questions were not answered, however, because another Minister for State came in and did not address the specific questions we had asked. No offence to the Minister of State, but we have another Minister of State here today. There is no consistency with this whatsoever.  The Minister of State expects 24,000 orders per year will be processed by this body and she hopes to have 20 staff in place by the end of the year. I do not know how long these orders are going to take to process but, if each of those staff members will be processing orders and will not be there for other administration purposes, that is 1,200 orders each member of staff will process per year. How long does the Minister of State reckon it will take to process one of these orders? There seems to be a really big burden on the staff the Minister of State is hoping to recruit. I ask for clarity on that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Gary Gannon  I have a brief question. In terms of the annual report which is catered for in section 20, what should this House expect from the first annual report? In 12 months\u2019 time, when the first annual report is delivered, what information should we expect? Presumably we understand that the office may evolve. There was reference to 30 staff when we were at the committee and it seems to be 20 now, along with a budget of \u20ac2.8 million. If this moves into the type of behemoth we imagine it would be, what should we expect from that first report? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Ardagh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Catherine Ardagh  In relation to the annual report, Deputy Carthy was curious as to whether it would be laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas. Section 20(4) provides that it would be presented to the Houses of the Oireachtas. As to what the contents of the report would be and what would form part of the report, that would be at the discretion of the Minister. Under section 20(3), the annual report \"shall be in such form, and include such information in respect of the performance by the Director of his or her functions, as the Director considers appropriate or as the Minister may direct.\" As I outlined, under section 21, the director must submit to the Minister information on the number of notifications under article 8, the number of production orders refused and the type of data requested, the addressees and the grounds for refusal, etc.  In relation to Deputy Gannon\u2019s point on why not be prescriptive at this stage or why state we are not being prescriptive, this is a new body and office and it was the considered thought of the Minister that the section would deliberately not be prescriptive so that we can take into account the experience and how the body is operating. It was the Minister\u2019s view that it would be premature to determine what statistical information is most relevant at this point, and he came to that decision having considered the matter with his officials and having put a lot of thought into it. I hope that answers some of the Deputies\u2019 questions. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mark Ward  If the Minister of State has the information, in relation to the 20 members of staff and the 24,000 orders per year they are going to be processing, how long will each of these take to process? Does the Minister of State think that is going to be a burden on the staff? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Ardagh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Catherine Ardagh  Orders must be processed in ten days or 96 hours. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mark Ward  I will have to get my calculator and work out how long it is going to take. Maybe that could be in the annual report also. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 20 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 21 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 22"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Aidan Farrelly)  Amendments Nos. 7 and 12 are related. Amendment No. 12 is consequential on amendment No. 7. Amendments Nos. 7 and 12 may be discussed together. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Matt Carthy  I move amendment No. 7:  In page 17, between lines 3 and 4, to insert the following:  \u201c(2) Notwithstanding this section, the Minister shall, no later than 31 July, publish guidance notes for small to medium sized service providers to promote compliance with their obligations under this Act.\u201d  This is, again, a simple insertion. It goes back to the earlier point on the need to actually support small and medium enterprises which will receive a minority of the requests but for which this will have the biggest impact and implication, as acknowledged by the Department itself. We know all service providers are going to have to comply with the directive and regulation by August. There will be very little time between the enactment of the legislation and the obligation being placed on service providers, and that is entirely a result of the approach of the Minister and Department to this, bringing it forward late in the day and not being able to answer questions. This is again rushed legislation from the Department of justice. I appreciate there is a Department webpage in relation to registering as a service provider but there is a significant body of work necessary to ensure that SMEs that will be affected will be adequately supported.  I hope the Minister of State will accept this amendment but, on the off-chance she is not going to accept one of my amendments, I ask that she give a definitive answer on the number of service providers in Ireland at this stage that are going to be caught up in this legislation. Is there an online portal, web app or similar available to each of them? Will the Minister put into the hands of each service provider a comprehensive but accessible and straightforward guide as to their obligations and how they can be best complied with? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Aidan Farrelly)  Does Deputy Carthy want to address amendment No. 12 now? If not, I can let other Members in. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Matt Carthy  Not at this time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Aidan Farrelly)  Do any other Members wish to speak? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Ardagh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Catherine Ardagh  In relation to the Deputy\u2019s question on the number of service providers that will be affected, 420 have been identified but the Department believes it may affect up to 600 service providers. I hope that provides clarification.  I propose to address amendments Nos. 7 and 12 together. Regretfully, I cannot accept either of these amendments. The purpose of establishing an independent office is to ensure that the Minister, as a member of the Executive, does not have any direct role in the enforcement of the obligations by service providers under this Bill. It would be neither desirable nor practical for the Minister to publish guidance notes when he or she has no role in determining compliance with the provisions. That is why section 22 provides that the director may issue guidance notes. I will not agree to an amendment that would undermine the role of the director in this regard, and neither can I agree to give service providers a free pass to breach their obligations under the e-evidence package pending the issue of guidance notes. I point out that the provisions of sections 38 and 40 are specifically designed to allow the director to remedy breaches by service providers without the need to proceed to investigations and the imposition of fines.  In particular, the director can seek a compliance report to clarify what the issues are and may enter into an agreement with the service provider setting out the steps to be taken to remedy any issues. Furthermore, there is a legal obligation on adjudication officers under section 50(2)(f) to give special consideration to small and medium-sized enterprises when considering the imposition of fines. The purpose is to ensure compliance with the legislation and the imposition of fines is very much a last resort. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 22 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sections 23 to 31, inclusive, agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 32"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Aidan Farrelly)  Amendments Nos. 8 and 9 are related and may be discussed together by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mark Wall  I move amendment No. 8:  In page 21, between lines 3 and 4, to insert the following:  \u201c(4) (a) Where an authorised officer or an adjudication officer compels the disclosure of a record or takes possession of a record in accordance with subsection (3) \u2014  (i) the officer concerned shall not, pending the final determination of an application under subsection (4) or (6) , as the case may be, use, copy, communicate or otherwise act upon the record or its contents for any purpose other than its secure retention in accordance with any directions given by the High Court under subsection (7) ,  (ii) the record shall be retained in a sealed and secure form, and shall not be accessed by any person, save for the purpose of complying with a direction of the High Court under subsection (7) , and  (iii) any person having custody of the record shall be bound by the restriction in subsection (3) and shall, if required by the High Court, give an undertaking to that effect.  (b) Where no application is made under subsection (4) or (6) within the period of 30 days referred to in subsection (4) , or within such extended period as the High Court may allow, the record shall be returned forthwith to the person from whom it was taken or compelled, and the officer concerned shall certify in writing that the record has not been used, copied or communicated during the period of its retention.\u201d.  I take the opportunity to wish the Minister of State well in her new role. We served together in the Seanad and it great to see her promotion. I am sure we will have many engagements in the coming months. Amendments Nos. 8 and 9 deal with privileged material. In recent times, the Government has sometimes been slow to recognise the impact that some of this legislation could have on the protection of legal or journalistic privilege. Under section 32(3) and (4), the Bill allows for the compelled disclosure of potentially privileged material. This is subject to a subsequent High Court determination with a 30-day window to apply. The key word here is \"subsequent\". As currently drafted, the provision puts the cart before the horse. The 30-day window runs from the date of disclosure of taking of possession. An authorised officer has up to 30 days to apply to the High Court for a retroactive determination of privilege after he or she has already taken possession of that piece of digital evidence but there is nothing here that amounts to any sort of explicit ban or interim restraint on the use of that privileged material while the court application is pending. We believe that this is essential and have tabled these two amendments to make clear on the face of the Bill that where an authorised officer or adjudication officer compels disclosure or takes possession of a record, the record may be subject to legal privilege and they cannot use, copy, communicate or act upon that record before the High Court's determination. I hope the Government will look closely at these amendments and that common sense will prevail. We want to prevent any potential loopholes with this legislation and I hope the Minister of State can agree to our amendments. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Ardagh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Catherine Ardagh  Regretfully, I must oppose both amendments. Section 32 is intended to deal with a situation where an investigation is under way by an authorised officer into a possible contravention by a service provider of a relevant obligation under the directive - notification of designated establishment or legal representative or failure to provide same with the necessary powers and resources. It could also apply where an adjudication is being made as to whether to impose a fine for a breach of certain provisions of the e-evidence regulation by a service provider. In the course of such an investigation or adjudication, the service provider may have to provide certain material. Section 32, which is a standard provision on the Statute Book that functions well, addresses the situation where a question of privilege arises. The intention is that in such cases, the material shall be handed over subject to its being held in safe-keeping by the authorised officer or adjudication officer, who must make an application to the High Court within 30 days. The High Court then decides what to do with it.  If I understand the Deputy correctly, his concern is about what happens to the material between the handing over the material and the application to the High Court. I agree with the Deputy that the material should be kept securely but I do not believe that his amendment is required. Subsection (3) of section 32 already provides that an officer can only compel the disclosure of the record or take possession of the record provided that the privilege asserted can be maintained. This provision is already quite sufficient to achieve the end sought by the Deputy's amendment - the preservation of privilege asserted over the record until such time as the court has ruled on the matter. An authorised officer or adjudication officer may only access material for the purpose of an investigation or adjudication and clearly cannot use material if privilege is claimed until and unless the High Court judge issues a direction or rules on the matter. Furthermore, under section 33(1), an authorised officer may not disclose any confidential information. To do so is a criminal offence under section 33(3). There are similar provisions for adjudication officers in section 33(2).  In summary, I agree with the sentiment underlying these amendments but I believe they are unnecessary and may be too restrictive as to means of preserving privilege. I am confident that the existing provisions and the High Court will ensure that there is no such abuse. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mark Wall  I move amendment No. 9:  In page 21, between lines 31 and 32, to insert the following:  \u201c(c) the prohibition on use, copying, communication or other action in respect of the record pending the final determination of the application, including such prohibition as against any person to whom the record may have been disclosed prior to the assertion of privilege.\u201d. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mark Ward  I move amendment No. 10:  In page 21, between lines 34 and 35, to insert the following:  \u201c(9) Counselling records in relation to sexual offence trials shall not be processed under this Act.\u201d.  We have had extensive engagement with the Minister in recent weeks in the D\u00e1il regarding the disclosure of counselling notes in trials. I appreciate that the Minister has moved somewhat on the issue but I will take the opportunity to ask him to move further and meet the needs as outlined by survivors with whom we have engaged. This gets to the core of the concerns regarding this Bill. It involves what happens with a court case in another jurisdiction regarding an alleged offence when it is known that a counsellor has electronic records of counselling notes. An order is received by a service provider in Ireland that provides online storage facilities. Is the Minister of State willing to stand over legal protection for survivors of domestic, sexual or gender-based violence that is less than what we provide for people in Ireland? The Minister of State might say that the legal systems here are different and have different safeguards and that would be true but is she willing to stand over whichever legal system in the EU may provide the least amount of protection to survivors----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Aidan Farrelly)  We must conclude. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mark Ward  Time is up. That is not the first time we have had discussions and time has run out. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Aidan Farrelly)  As the time has expired, I am now required to put the following question in accordance with an order of the D\u00e1il of 16 June 2026: \"That in respect of each of the sections undisposed of, the section is hereby agreed to in Committee, the Title is hereby agreed to in Committee, the Bill is accordingly reported to the House without amendment, Fourth Stage is hereby completed and the Bill is hereby passed.\" "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Criminal Justice (International Cooperation on Electronic Evidence and Other Matters) Bill 2026: Committee and Remaining Stages"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_30","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Message from Select Committee","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_30","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Aidan Farrelly)  The Select Committee on Health has completed its consideration of the Health (Amendment) Bill 2025 and has made amendments thereto. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Message from Select Committee"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_31","debateType":"billReport","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/53","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/53\/dail\/4_sub","houseCode":"dail","stage":"4_sub","isBillStage":false,"showAs":"Guardianship of Infants and Child Care (Amendment) Bill 2026: Report and Final Stages (D\u00e1il)"}},"showAs":"Guardianship of Infants and Child Care (Amendment) Bill 2026: Report and Final Stages","counts":{"speechCount":18,"speakerCount":5},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_31","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"M\u00e1ire Devine","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/M\u00e1ire-Devine.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"M\u00e1ire-Devine.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Matt Carthy  I move amendment No. 1:  In page 4, lines 18 to 32, to delete all words from and including \u201c(1) Where\u2014\u201d in line 18 down to and including line 32 and substitute the following:  \u201c(1) Where a person (in this section referred to as the \u2018convicted guardian\u2019) who is a guardian of a child is convicted in the State of the murder or manslaughter of a person who was, at the time of the commission of the offence concerned, another guardian of the child concerned the Child and Family Agency shall, as soon as practicable but not later than 3 months after the conviction or any extension of that period under subsection (2), apply to the court in that behalf for an order under subsection (3).\u201d.  I welcome Mr. David French to the Visitors Gallery. When he attended the Oireachtas committee on justice yesterday, I said only half in jest that he has a better attendance rate in this place than some Members do. Everybody in the House, including the Minister, will acknowledge the reason this Bill is before us at all is largely down to the efforts of David and his family. Their efforts in memory of Valerie are commendable.  The amendment seeks to strengthen section 12C by requiring Tusla to apply to the court in every case following a conviction and by requiring that to be done within three months. As it stands, there is a discretionary test I am concerned about that could limit applications where reasonable cause is not established and that contradicts the stated intention that the application would be made in all cases. A conviction for the murder or manslaughter of a co-guardian is in itself sufficient evidence of a fundamental breach of the duty to the child and no further threshold need apply, so removing the discretion ensures consistency, protects the child and avoids the risk the legislation becomes ineffective in practice. I raised this with the Minister on Committee Stage. My appeal was that he would either accept this amendment or provide another formula of words that would be acceptable to him because there is a concern in terms of the veracity of Tusla in these matters. We had Tusla representatives before the committee yesterday. Essentially, it appears that in practice this will operate with a single social worker making a determination. That is concerning. There could be a situation where Tusla decides, via one person or very small number of people, that this law should not be applicable in a situation whereby somebody who has killed another parent and is still considered under law a legal guardian of a child who has been deprived of a parent by that individual and that that might remain legally the position at the behest of a single institution. Therefore, we believe there is a need for absolute clarity in terms of the law and to ensure there is no ambiguity.  As the Minister knows, we have a further amendment that clarifies one of the areas he has raised and it is a valid point whereby somebody could have been convicted but on the basis of all the discernible evidence it could be proven that they had been a victim of domestic abuse. In that regard, we recognise there needs to be a level of discretion but it is our view that discretion should be in the hands of the courts, not in the hands of the agency. There should be a very clear level playing field in terms of where these decisions are made. As in all cases, once Tusla brings an application, it will be for the courts to adjudicate but there is a real concern by campaigners and by the people who have brought us to this point that you could have a scenario whereby one parent is responsible for the murder or manslaughter of another parent and Tusla, in whatever wisdom or logic, decides it does not believe there is a case to be brought to remove guardianship rights from that parent. There is no mechanism for appeal in that regard. That is unfair and it goes against the spirit of everything the Minister has quite rightly said in terms of the importance of this legislation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"M\u00e1ire Devine","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/M\u00e1ire-Devine.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"M\u00e1ire-Devine.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy M\u00e1ire Devine  The Guardianship of Infants and Child Care (Amendment) Bill 2026 will always be known as Valerie's law. Thanks to Valerie's brother, David French, this is a very proud moment for all of us and especially for him and his family. His tenacity is to be admired given the arduous journey over the years to get to this point, with many occasions appearing to be confusing. I would say that trying to find a way has been exhausting for him but sibling love and loyalty spurred him on.  As a Sinn F\u00e9in spokesperson on gender and domestic violence, with the support of the agencies that support women, we are always calling on men - our brothers, husbands, sons, fathers and uncles - to stand with us; to stand with women. Often men say, \"We are not like that; you have our support\". Where is your voice, your presence in marching with us demanding protections, in addressing your mates' behaviour and in calling out cringeworthy attitudes and actions? Take a leaf from Mr. French's book whose dignified determination shows how our men and boys can be, how they respect their loves, their mothers, wives and daughters, who make up over half the population. He stood firm and this will inform his nephews - Valerie's sons - how to carry their heartache while living their best lives as equality advocates in their community. Maith th\u00fa, Daith\u00ed, we owe you much. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Gary Gannon  It is an important moment to acknowledge the courage and commitment of Mr. David French who has travelled here for every committee hearing and briefing out of love for his sister Valerie and to ensure the passage of the Bill we are discussing today. It is an important moment to take stock to reflect on that courage. Too often, we see people who have to place the trauma of their loss or absence alongside the courage needed to get up and go out and make things better for those who come after them. It is an important point to mention. I will be supporting Deputy Carthy's amendment. We should acknowledge that Tusla is a reluctant litigant in this regard and there should be space for families to ensure they can seek accountability when perhaps Tusla does not see the purpose of that should the case arise. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Justice, Home Affairs and Migration (Deputy Jim O'Callaghan)  Like my colleagues, I too welcome Mr. David French to the Gallery. I commend him on his perseverance and the encouragement he has provided, not only to me in terms of trying to ensure the legislation could be introduced to the Houses of the Oireachtas but also in terms of the encouragement and support to other Members of the House.  It is unusual to have legislation that is universally supported. I am very conscious Members are perfectly entitled to put down amendments but it is unusual to have legislation that is so universally supported. This is in no small part due to the presence and campaigning of David French.  I thank Deputy Carthy for his amendment, which seeks to do two things. It seeks to amend section 12C, which at present, under the draft that was approved on Committee Stage, requires the Child and Family Agency to bring an application as soon as practicable but not later than six months after the conviction of the person for manslaughter or murder. Deputy Carthy's amendment wishes to amend this so that it states \"3 months\". I cannot accept the amendment because I believe the statutory provision that is there at present is fairly clear to the Child and Family Agency. It requires it to bring an application as soon as practicable. This requires it to move with considerable expediency and the timeline limit on which the application can be made is six months.  My concern is that by changing the statutory limitation from six months to three months I will find myself in a situation where the Child and Family Agency will recognise that it cannot get all of the material before the courts within the three months and we will encourage applications for extensions of time. As Deputy Carthy is aware, under the legislation such applications for an extension of time are permitted and sometimes they may be necessary. My concern is that if we limit it so tightly to three months, there will necessarily be constant immediate applications for extensions.  It is also important to point out that when it comes to making this application it will, presumably, be an application that is made on affidavit by Tusla, in which it will have to set out the basis for the application. It will have to provide evidential proof of the conviction by way of the order from the Central Criminal Court. It will take a bit of time to do this. It will also need to put before the court evidence that it states is necessary to show that the second requirement for the implication of the application has been met, which is that the convicted parent has failed in his or her obligation to the child.  This brings me to the second part of Deputy Carthy's amendment, which is that he seeks to remove from the consideration the test that Tusla must be satisfied the convicted guardian has failed in his or her duty towards the child concerned. The reason this is included, and I emphasised this on Committee Stage, is based on the constitutional threshold for State intervention in the family. It is important, as I have stated repeatedly, that this provision is not perceived as being a penalty imposed on a guardian who is convicted of manslaughter or murder. That is not the purpose of it. If it were the purpose, challenges would be brought to it on grounds of equality. The purpose is to trigger an application in circumstances where there is a conviction of a guardian of the murder or manslaughter of another guardian and there is a belief that the convicted guardian has failed in his or her duty towards the child concerned. I agree with virtually everyone here that in the vast majority of circumstances where an individual guardian has been convicted of murder or manslaughter of another guardian and there are children, this is in itself a child protection issue and the person who is convicted has failed in his or her duty towards the child concerned.  To use the example that Deputy Carthy gave a few moments ago, which is present in one of his forthcoming amendments, say there was a situation where a female guardian who had repeatedly been subjected to domestic violence was prosecuted for murder or manslaughter and was convicted. There could be situations where Tusla, as the party bringing the application, could look to see who else was a potential guardian of the children. It could determine in this situation and in this context that it would not be appropriate to bring an application because the mother of the children should remain as the guardian. In such circumstances it would be inappropriate for such an application to be made. For this reason I cannot accept the amendment, notwithstanding that we all agree with the sentiment that we want applications such as this to be brought as soon as is reasonably practicable. I cannot remove the second limb of the triggering test, which is the requirement for Tusla to be satisfied that the convicted guardian has failed in his or her duty towards the children.  Tusla is the Child and Family Agency and it is the appropriate entity to bring such an application. I know in due course this afternoon we will be discussing amendments from Deputy Carthy on other family members being permitted to bring an application. This would create a very contentious and difficult scenario for the family and the children in certain circumstances. This is a public law issue. Because of this, the public statutory body responsible for the protection of children is the appropriate entity to bring the application. For this reason I respectfully say I cannot agree to Deputy Carthy's first amendment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Matt Carthy  I will make a couple of points. In respect of the three-month provision included in my amendment, I want to restate clearly, as I did to the Minister on Committee Stage, that if this was the big stumbling block I would have quite happily accepted his suggestion to increase the time. To me this is a red herring because it is clearly on the record of the House that there is a willingness to accept it. I do not accept his other arguments in respect of the broader issue here, which is the ability of a single agency. Tusla has told the Oireachtas justice committee this will mean that ultimately it will be down to the call of a single social worker, somebody who in 90% of cases, if not 99.9% of cases, will have the best interests of the child at heart, or at least what they consider to be the best interests of the child at heart. They will make a judgment call. We could have a situation where somebody who is convicted of murdering a parent remains the guardian of the children, where an individual or a small group of individuals in Tusla think this is okay but any other reasonable person outside of that organisation might consider it not to be okay. There is no mechanism in this law for anybody else to make this application. It is not possible for a garda, other family members or interested parties in terms of the well-being of the child. This to me is a lacuna in the law and more than is the case with any of the other amendments, should we get to a point where we could agree to this alone, we would have much stronger legislation that would have a much clearer impetus and support of all concerned. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jim O'Callaghan  We had a good discussion about this on Committee Stage. I note what Deputy Carthy is trying to do but I have to stick with what I have in terms of the six months and the statutory requirement. The last thing any of us in the House want is for an application to be challenged in the courts by a person who is convicted and who says it is an extra penalty being imposed on them, that they are a person who has been convicted of murder or manslaughter and is being treated differently from others who have been convicted of murder or manslaughter because an extra penalty is being imposed upon them, namely, the removal of their guardianship rights. I have to take this into account. The reason the Minister for children is sitting beside me and is so supportive of the legislation is that it is about protecting children. That is the primary focus of it. It arises in the context of the criminal justice system reaching a certain determination but the provision in the legislation is about protecting children. If I deviate from that and start focusing on matters other than children, we are going to get ourselves into legal difficulties. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  I ask Members to remain in the Chamber while Deputy Carthy moves amendment No. 2: "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Matt Carthy  I move amendment No. 2:  In page 6, between lines 8 and 9, to insert the following:  \"(8)(a) Notwithstanding subsections (1) to (7), this section shall not apply, or shall apply with such modifications as the court considers appropriate, in a case where the convicted guardian was convicted of manslaughter and the court is satisfied that\u2014  (i) the act giving rise to the conviction was committed in self-defence, or  (ii) at the time of the commission of the offence, the convicted guardian had been subjected to domestic violence (within the meaning of the Domestic Violence Act 2018) by the deceased guardian, and the offence occurred in circumstances materially connected to that history of domestic violence.  (b) In determining whether paragraph (a) applies, the court shall have regard to\u2014  (i) any findings of fact made in the criminal proceedings,  (ii) any evidence of domestic violence, including patterns of coercive control, and  (iii) the best interests of the child concerned.  (c) Where paragraph (a) applies, the Child and Family Agency shall not be required to make an application under subsection (1), unless the Agency is satisfied that, notwithstanding those circumstances, there is a risk to the safety or welfare of the child concerned.  (d) Nothing in this subsection shall prevent the court from making an order under subsection (3) where it is satisfied that such an order is necessary and proportionate to protect the safety or welfare of the child concerned.\".  In moving amendment No. 2, I am conscious that the vote on amendment No. 1 is probably going to be the only one on this legislation, which has cross-party support and will be known as Valerie's law because of the campaigning efforts of David French, who has brought us all to this point. It is appropriate, seeing that we are all in this House, to acknowledge David and his family. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Members rose and applauded. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Matt Carthy  I move amendment No. 3:  In page 11, lines 29 to 32, to delete all words from and including \"(1) An\" in line 29 down to and including line 32 and substitute the following:  \"(1) An application to the court for an order under this Part shall not be made in relation to the child concerned other than on notice to\u2014  (a) each guardian of that child (including a victim guardian within the meaning of section 12D), and  (b) the next of kin of a deceased guardian of that child, where that deceased guardian died as a result of an offence referred to in section 12C(1); provided that a person shall not be regarded as next of kin for the purposes of this paragraph if that person has been convicted of that offence,\".  This amendment ensures that all relevant parties, including the next of kin of a deceased guardian, would be notified of court applications affecting a child. It is important that the family of a guardian who has been killed be made a notice party in proceedings. Such a family have a clear and legitimate interest in the child's welfare, and that role should be recognised, respected and reflected in the process. We discussed this at length on Committee Stage and the Minister did not accept our amendment of the basis that \"next of kin\" was not defined in the legislation, but the meaning of \"next of kin\" is quite clear, as is how that would be applied in real terms before a court. It is for this reason that we tabled the amendment again on Report Stage. I ask the Minister to accept it. If he feels there is a better formula of wording, we have been very clear that we are open to that. This is about ensuring families are notified. We should remember that we are talking about families who have lost a loved one in the most cruel circumstances by murder or manslaughter. They have a vested interest in the well-being of the child in relation to whom a court order is applied for. I do not believe notifying them is too much to ask for.  We asked Tusla when its representatives appeared before the committee about their approach to these matters and they were not forthcoming in giving the committee a sense of how the agency currently approaches the issue. It is crucially and critically important that we do not have a situation where there is a court hearing in respect of a case involving a child where the family of the deceased person is not a notice party or perhaps is not even aware that the case is before the court. I appeal to the Minister to either agree to this wording or agree to find a formula of words that will meet the same purpose. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jim O'Callaghan  I thank the Deputy for his amendment. I do have a better type of wording and it is set out in section 12I of the legislation. The section is entitled \"Notice parties to proceedings under this Part\". Section 12I(i) states, \"An application to the court for an order under this Part shall not be made in relation to the child concerned other than on notice to each guardian of that child\". Whether it is an application in circumstances where the victim guardian is still alive, and that can happen, an application must be made to that victim guardian or, indeed, to any other guardian who is available. It will obviously have to be served on notice to the convicted guardian as well.  The legislation before us also provides in section 12I(ii), \"A relative of the child concerned may seek leave to be joined as a notice party to proceedings under this Part.\" If a relative becomes aware that Tusla is bringing such an application, that application will obviously be on notice to the guardians of the child who are living and a relative can nonetheless still apply to the court to be made a notice party to the proceedings.  I am concerned that the Deputy's amendment could give rise to a lot of contentious and difficult circumstances during the hearing of the application. What the Deputy wants to introduce is a requirement that Tusla would have to notify the next of kin of a deceased guardian of that child. It is important to set out that there is no definition of who is the next of kin within the Deputy's amendment. When it comes to the relative, defined in section 12I, I have specified who a relative is for the purpose of making such an application. Section 12 I(3) states, \"In subsection (2) \u2018relative\u2019, in relation to the child concerned, means a grandparent, brother, sister, uncle or aunt, whether of the whole blood, half blood or by affinity, and includes the spouse of any such person and any person cohabiting with any such person.\" Under the provision I have, a relative can apply to be put on notice and can seek the leave of the court to be joined. Under the Deputy's proposal, there is a statutory requirement to be imposed on Tusla to put on notice the undefined next of kin. It is not possible for me to accept such a vague and ill-defined amendment.  Even if it were the case that I was to accept the Deputy's amendment, if it were precise, we must think of the difficulties that could arise in circumstances where all the next of kin of a deceased guardian of a child would be put on notice. Let us use an example where the mother of the child or children is the victim and, regrettably, that is predominantly the case. In such circumstances, is it the case that Tusla will have to put on notice every sibling of that deceased person? What about her parents and grandparents? It is not defined as to who should be put on notice. The reality is that in a particular family, it may be the case that the next of kin of the deceased has no relationship with the deceased or their child. Alternatively, a next of kin may have a very close relationship with the convicted guardian. It may in some circumstances be difficult to identify or locate such people as the next of kin. There is a requirement to put them on notice.  Like me, Deputy Carthy wants to ensure that these applications are heard as soon as practicable. If it is the case that Tusla is required to put every next of kin on notice, what happens in circumstances where a next of kin, say a sibling of the deceased guardian, lives in Australia or elsewhere outside the jurisdiction? That will, in effect, mean that the District Court hearing the application will say there is a statutory obligation and the Oireachtas has determined that the next of kin must be put on notice. If one of the people who are the next of kin is living in Australia, the application could not proceed until such time as that person has been put on notice of the application. It would impose a barrier, and I know the Deputy does not want to put in place barriers. It would impose a barrier to bringing an application in a speedy manner and would not provide any additional benefit for the child concerned.  As I say, I believe the provisions that are set out in section 12I, which deals with notice parties to proceedings under this Part, are sufficient. The guardians must be put on notice. A relative can seek the leave of the court to be put on notice. It does not mean that the court is going to, on each occasion, say that person will be granted leave to be heard in the case. The court may say it does not need to turn this into a family row among the remaining relatives of the deceased guardian, with a number of them in court saying that they want the children to remain within the guardianship of the convicted guardian while another part of the family is saying they want to guardianship rights of the convicted guardian taken away. We must recognise that there will not always be harmony within a family in terms of what should happen at the outcome and the provision that I have included at section 12I is, to use Deputy Carthy's words, better wording, and that is what we should stick to. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Matt Carthy  The Minister again, purposely or otherwise, has missed the point. This amendment was brought forward not because it was something that I wanted to bring forward. I brought it forward because the affected families pointed out to us that this is an anomaly. They have not been made notice parties or have not been informed at all, or have had to fight and battle with Tusla to have any say whatsoever about the care of a child that they love. They feel strongly that the legislation, as currently worded, does not cater for that. It is for that reason that this amendment was put forward. I take it that the Minister has issues with the wording we put forward but I hope he will accept our bona fides in saying that there are legitimate concerns that the Government's legislation does not fully address this issue. The answer, therefore, is not to leave things as they are but to find a solution. As with all of these amendments, if there is a middle road to be found, I am quite happy to travel there. It appears that the Minister does not want to accept the amendment. He starts from that position and then finds whatever reason he can to build up to what might appear to be a logical argument against it. The real logic of the fact is that we have had situations where court cases involving the well-being of children have not been notified to people who, probably more than anybody, have the care of those children at heart. That needs to be rectified, whether in this legislation or another piece of legislation. I am arguing that now is the time to do that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jim O'Callaghan  I am not dismissing Deputy Carthy's proposed amendment because it is coming from him. I listen carefully to what he says and what other colleagues contribute. We want to get this right. I must be honest with the Deputy in the House about what I think the consequence of his amendment would be. It is true that there is no definition for who is the next of kin. The first thing a court will do when it is mandated by the legislation to put on notice the next of kin is to ask who the next of kin is. Is it all the siblings of the deceased guardian or does it extend only to certain among them? We need to be precise and will be criticised by the courts if we do not define this accurately.  The Deputy raises the valid point that families want to be involved in this. We know that the genesis of this legislation is the love of a brother for his deceased sister.  That is why I included, in section 12I, a provision that allows family members to bring an application to the District Court requesting to be put on notice of this application because, for example, they represent the interests of their deceased sister and would like the court to hear those during the hearing of the application. That provision is there already. As well as that, Tusla is not an island. People contact it, write to it and make submissions to it. There is an express statutory provision in place. It is not Tusla that will decide whether a family member is to be a notice party. The court will decide and I think that resolves the issue of concern to Deputy Carthy. No disrespect meant to his amendment but the provision in the Bill is far better and the amendment put forward by Deputy Carthy would create confusion. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Matt Carthy  I move amendment No. 4:  In page 12, between lines 16 and 17, to insert the following:  \u201c(1A) Where a guardian ad litem of the child, another guardian of the child, or a relative of the child (being a person who would be entitled to notice of proceedings under this Act) is of the opinion that an application under subsection (1) ought to be made in the best interests of the child, he or she may request the Child and Family Agency to make such an application.  (1B) The Child and Family Agency shall consider any request under subsection (1A) and, where it decides not to make an application under subsection (1), shall, on request, provide reasons for that decision to the person who made the request.\u201d.  This is another amendment we discussed at length on Committee Stage and I was hopeful the Minister would bring forward his own amendment to deal with this issue. As discussed, this deals with historical cases. As it stands, the section gives Tusla discretion in dealing with convictions that occurred before the Act commenced. The Minister made quite a lot of reference on Committee Stage to the fact that this is peculiar - I am not sure it is entirely unique - in that it has a retrospective element. That is important and I commend the Minister and Department on including it.  However, without strengthening the provision to include other parties, as this amendment seeks to do, there is a risk that there will be cases where applications will not be brought where they should be. This amendment recognises that guardians ad litem , other guardians and relatives should have a role in prompting action where it is in the child's best interests. This is particularly important considering Tusla has raised concerns about resourcing and identifying historical cases. It is, therefore, essential that those closest to the child can bring matters forward and ensure appropriate applications are made to the court.  The Minister previously indicated that people can contact Tusla anyway and that a provision in legislation is not needed. That is not necessarily an argument for not doing something. There is a strong case to put on a legislative basis that people can engage with Tusla to ensure there is, in the first instance, consideration of any such request. Equally important, in terms of the amendment we have put forward, is the provision that, if a decision is made not to pursue it, at least the rationale for that decision would be notified because that would resolve a question mark or concern on the part of those affected. I encourage the Minister to accept the amendment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jim O'Callaghan  I thank Deputy Carthy for his amendment. In paragraph (1A), in effect what Deputy Carthy is seeking to achieve is already the law under the provision. Deputy Carthy's amendment states \"where a guardian ad litem of the child, another guardian of the child, or a relative of the child ... is of the opinion that an application ... ought to be made in the best interests of the child\", he can request Tusla to do so. The situation at present is that if Tusla believes it is in the best interests of the child - that is the second limb of the test we discussed under amendment No. 1 - it must bring the application, where there has been a conviction of murder or manslaughter. That is a requirement. The purpose of Deputy Carthy's first paragraph is to achieve something that will happen in any event. As Deputy Carthy fairly acknowledged I said on Committee Stage, there is nothing to stop relatives, guardians ad litem or other guardians of the child contacting Tusla to say they believe an application should be brought. If it is the case that an application is in the best interests of the child, Tusla must bring it.  My real concern about the proposed amendment, however, is the requirement in paragraph (1B) for Tusla to provide reasons to the person who made the request if an application is not made. Although Deputy Carthy does not define \"relative\", we will assume it has the same definition as it has in section 12I. Deputies will see that I included a very broad definition of \"relative\". Under this provision, there would be a requirement on Tusla to set out to a broad range of family members reasons an application is not being made. There may be reasons that are sensitive or personal which Tusla might not want to give out because of the central importance of the child being protected. They could be matters confidential to the child, such as the child's views.  I appreciate what Deputy Carthy is trying to do in all the amendments but I have to try to ensure that, at the end of this, we get a Bill that is coherent and will work and I am concerned that doing this would undermine the effectiveness of the legislation. On balance, I do not think it would improve the legislation. I say that with the greatest of respect for Deputy Carthy.  I am fearful the obligation on Tusla to provide reasons would become quite a legal process. It would recognise that any reasons it gives out would have to thorough and that might have an impact on the decisions it makes. It is always the case that if Tusla is not fulfilling its public law duty as required, there are remedies available to family members, guardians ad litem or the other guardians by way of judicial review. That is not the outcome anyone wants but there is a certain architecture to this legislation that will permit families to engage with Tusla. It permits family members or relatives to be put on notice of the application before the courts. If family members are put on notice of the application, they will be given a right to be heard by the District Court so their views will be well aired before the court. In balancing the rights of relatives, or the next of kin as Deputy Carthy referred to, it is important they have a process in which their views can be accommodated and listened to. I have included that in section 12I and the process whereby the application is made and people can contact Tusla is sufficient. I just do not want to put Tusla on a defensive, litigious footing when it comes to communications from family members where Tusla has a statutory obligation to provide reasons to those people that it is not bringing the application. I do not want that to become the dominant part.  We want this to be as simple as possible. There is a conviction for murder or manslaughter. It is in the best interests of the child for an application to be made under this section. Tusla goes promptly to the District Court. The District Court considers the application. Family members will apply to the District Court to be heard and put on notice. I am sure in many instances the court will permit that while not turning it into a situation where every family member has a separate entitlement to be heard.  We can then have a prompt decision which, as always, is guided by what is in the best interests of the very unfortunate children who are left behind. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Matt Carthy  There is not much to say because we have argued this out in relation to all the amendments. The Minister is particularly wrong in this case. Consider a scenario in which a parent of a child has murdered or killed another parent of a child. They are in law currently considered to be guardians. There is now a provision where Tusla can apply to the courts to have that guardianship removed. For cases that predate the passage of this legislation, there is a level of discretion involved as to whether Tusla will bring such cases. This amendment simply seeks to allow family members of the deceased parent to make an application or a request of Tusla to bring it forward. If Tusla decides that in that situation, where the person who killed the other parent should remain the guardian and will not even bring the matter before a court for decision, the family of the deceased person should be told why. It is not too much to ask and that is why I am pressing the amendment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Gary Gannon  A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, may I come in? I support the amendment and will be very brief. The Minister has said a couple of times that there is nothing to stop the family having the right to make a request----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  I have to interrupt you, Deputy Gannon. The time permitted for the debate having expired, I am required to put the following question in accordance with the order of the D\u00e1il of 16 June: \"That Fourth Stage is hereby completed and the Bill is hereby passed.\" "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  The Bill will now be sent to the Seanad. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Guardianship of Infants and Child Care (Amendment) Bill 2026: Report and Final Stages"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_36","debateType":"debate","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/51","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/51\/dail\/3_sub","houseCode":"dail","stage":"3_sub","isBillStage":false,"showAs":"Finance Bill 2026: Committee and Remaining Stages (D\u00e1il)"}},"showAs":"Finance Bill 2026: Committee and Remaining Stages","counts":{"speechCount":32,"speakerCount":6},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_36","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 1"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question proposed: \"That section 1 stand part of the Bill.\""},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pearse Doherty  Section 1 deals with the diesel rebate scheme. As I have said to the Minister of State and the T\u00e1naiste, there are many issues with this scheme. One of the particular issues is cash flow. I have outlined previously to the House that the best way to support hauliers and transport operators was to provide the rebate at the pump. There would be no delay and operators would not have to wait for three months, meaning there would be no issue with cash flow. In addition, given the way the energy directive is formed, that would allow for the same benefit to be passed on to other consumers, like the motorists travelling the length and breadth of the State who have in the last period paid significantly increased sums for their diesel. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Finance (Deputy Robert Troy)  I acknowledge the Deputy raised this on Second Stage and I replied to advise that any issues that were there initially have been identified and rebates are being processed as efficiently as possible. The temporary enhancement to the diesel rebate scheme has been agreed by Government in light of the severe price impacts that have arisen following the outbreak of the conflict in the Middle East. It is acknowledged it is a short-term and targeted measure that helps to ease the burden on households and businesses across the State by minimising the inflationary impact of fuel costs for road haulage and bus services during this period.  The Deputy said the wanted to ensure people could get access to it in a timely way. We have taken that back and referred it. We have been assured any glitches there were have been ironed out and rebates will be processed in a timely way. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 2"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  Amendments Nos. 1 to 4, inclusive, are related and may be discussed together. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pearse Doherty  I move amendment No. 1:  In page 6, to delete lines 1 to 22 and substitute the following:  \"     1 July 2026    \u20ac381.00    \u20ac502.88    \u20ac250.00    \u20ac371.85    \u20ac371.85    \u20ac0.00    \u20ac210.45    \u20ac21.00    \u20ac167.25    \u20ac79.17    \u20ac11.48      14 October 2026    \u20ac706.14    \u20ac706.14    \u20ac615.76    \u20ac615.76    \u20ac615.76    \u20ac160.81    \u20ac210.45    \u20ac219.50    \u20ac167.25    \u20ac103.66    \u20ac11.48     \".  These amendments go to the core of the legislation. This legislation is flawed because it has left people under severe financial pressure in the middle of a really hard time for so many families across the State. Amendment No. 1 probably sums that up best. It would remove excise completely from home heating oil. It is folly but we hear from Government all the time that there is no excise tax on home heating oil despite numerous replies to parliamentary question saying over and over that there is excise duty on home heating oil in the form of carbon tax, and carbon tax is excise. We should really stop that stupid debate because this is legislation that deals with excise, a version of which is mineral oil tax and part of that is carbon tax, which is an excise duty.  The core of this is the Government has refused to cut excise duty on home heating oil at all. The reason it has done that is it is called \"carbon tax\". Government has this idea of carbon tax as a Holy Grail, so no matter how difficult things get for families, it is not willing to deal with it just because the excise duty is called carbon tax. It is as if there is a separate pot of money into which carbon taxes go. There is no such thing in Irish tax law as a certain tax being assigned to a certain type of spend. It does not exist. Hypothecation does not happen in Irish tax law, so this money that comes in from carbon tax as people pay to heat their homes and to drive from A to B goes into the big kitty - the State's purse - and then is divvied out.  The Comptroller and Auditor General's office cannot identify where a significant amount of that carbon tax, I think about 40% if not more, is spent despite Government saying it is spent on supports for climate change and measures of that nature. However, that is not what is happening with all of the money. We show time and again that there are other ways revenues can be raised to do not only those types of measures but also to do more and to deal genuinely with issues of climate.  Our amendment would reduce excise by \u20ac183 on a 1,000-litre fill. The cost of home heating oil has increased significantly since March. In some cases, it has gone up 50%. It is still \u20ac300 more expensive to refill a tank than it would have been before the recent spikes resulting from the war in Iran.  Amendment No. 2 deletes all further carbon tax increases. We submitted this as a single amendment to the Bills Office but it split the amendment. Why is it important that we do not increase carbon taxes? Because carbon taxes are regressive. Carbon taxes are a punishment on ordinary families across the State. The idea we would increase carbon tax over and over, knowing the alternatives are out of the reach of many families, is simply punishing the families because they are not wealthy enough to buy an electric car, do not have enough sitting in their bank account to put air-to-water systems into their house or cannot afford a deep energy retrofit in their homes and do not qualify for the free one. It is not fair. It is regressive and the Government is punishing people by implementing it. It is not just me saying it is regressive; the ESRI in its report made it clear that carbon taxes are regressive.  Is there a case for taxes that can change behaviour? Of course there is. I have supported taxes in the past that can change behaviour but for that to happen we need alternatives and those alternatives have to be readily available and affordable.  Members of this House will be asked when they vote on the schedule later on to vote for an increase in the prices of petrol, diesel and home heating oil in October 2026; not only that, they will also agree to vote for similar increases in 2027, 2028, 2029 and 2030. There is no other legislation that comes before the House with such a long-term vision or that the Government is so certain of that it says it will do this, that and the other over the next four or five years. Where is the Government's legislation in relation to children with additional needs that lays down in law the targets and benefits that will be provided between now and 2030? It does not exist. Where is the legislation that lays down in law the right to housing increasing every year between now and 2030? It does not exist. For all the serious issues in this State, the Government does not provide long-term plans or legally binding legislative provisions. However, when it comes to punishing people in my constituency because they have to drive to work, drop their kids to school or go to a dental or hospital appointment, then it has no problem not only punishing them by making it more expensive to get from A to B come October, but also doing the same thing the next year, the year after, the year after and the year after. Parties in this House, including so-called Opposition parties, will back the Government to the hilt in that. It is disgraceful.  I will not be part of it. We were right to vote against the legislation last time. People called me out on it and said I was isolated. By God, I was not isolated. The people who came onto the streets took our position. They knew the Government's first miserly excuses for cuts to diesel and petrol were pathetic. That is why people rose up and took to the streets. That is why the barricades were set. That is why the country said, \"No more of this here\". Folks, this is wrong what you are doing in terms of increasing carbon tax every year between now and 2030. It is absolutely regressive. It punishes ordinary families the length and breadth of this State and the argument put forward about a ring fence to support these families is completely and utterly hollow. It does not stand up to scrutiny under the Finance Act or in relation to what the ESRI and Comptroller and Auditor General have said.  I will push amendment No. 1 because people deserve a reduction in excise duty and, particularly, a reduction in home heating oil. I will push amendment No. 2 because I stand against any more increases in carbon tax on solid fuels, and amendment No. 3 when it comes to natural gas. People are trying to heat their home at a time when one in four households - get this, folks; let the penny drop here - one in four households across this State cannot pay their gas bills, yet the legislation before us asks us to vote to increase those gas bills in October, the following October, the following October and the following October. We in Sinn F\u00e9in will not stand for that. We should be bringing forward legislation to support families, not more punishment, not punishing them for using gas or home heating oil to heat their home or putting petrol or diesel in the car to get from A to B.  The last thing that is absolutely obnoxious and that we will not stand for in this legislation is the Government asking us to agree a schedule for petrol and diesel prices to increase significantly come 1 August. This D\u00e1il goes into recess in four weeks' time so when this kicks in on 1 August, the Government will not be in this Chamber. This legislation will not pass these Houses until July yet on the last day of July diesel is to increase by 32 cent and petrol by 27 cent. That is nuts. It is absolutely bonkers that the Government is asking us to support legislation - whatever about its humming and hawing as to what it might do in two weeks' time - that would see diesel go up to \u20ac2.20 on 1 August when the D\u00e1il is not even sitting, and petrol going up to similar levels. Not in my name. I oppose the Government's schedule. I believe it did not go far enough in its excise cuts. I stand with the Irish people in opposing the increases in carbon tax the Government plans for this year and every year until 2030. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Robert Troy  I am happy to reply to Deputy Doherty but it is probably a futile and pointless exercise because he has come in with his mind made up. I will reply anyway because we know his contribution today was for Facebook later on.  Amendment No. 1 proposes from 1 July until 14 October 2026 a further reduction in mineral oil tax rates and petrol and auto diesel and to reduce the mineral oil tax rates applicable to kerosene used other than as a propellant, as well as further deviations from the mineral oil tax rates applying to other fuels. It further proposes to set mineral oil tax from 14 October 2026 at the rates applicable prior to the rate cuts introduced in March and April of this year.  Amendments Nos. 2, 3 and 4 effectively propose to end carbon tax trajectory at current rates. Mineral oil tax comprises a non-carbon and a carbon component, commonly referred to as the carbon tax. That is the difference. When we talk of no excise on kerosene, there is a carbon element and that is called carbon tax. We commonly refer to one element as excise duty and another as carbon tax. There is carbon associated with kerosene. The increase that was to come in at the beginning of May has been deferred until later in the year to recognise the cost pressures at the time it was to come in. Kerosene rose to \u20ac1.77 per litre in April; over the past month, the average prices have been down to \u20ac1.26 per litre. It is welcome to see it back on a downward trajectory. We need to see it go further but that is its current status.  The Deputy calls out his party's opposition to carbon tax. To be fair, that has been a consistent approach but there is a different approach on this side of the House. It is not today or as part of this Bill that we are realising that approach to carbon tax; this is a well-enshrined approach by this Government.  The programme for Government committed to continue with carbon tax increases, aligning with the recommendations from the Climate Change Advisory Council and scientific experts, and to using the revenues raised to support climate action measures and ensure the most vulnerable are protected from unintended impacts of the tax increases. This includes funding for retrofitting - tens of thousands of homes have benefited from this, particularly people in receipt of fuel allowance, who get a deep retrofitting free of charge - and agri-environmental schemes, along with targeted social welfare payments and other initiatives to prevent fuel poverty and ensure a just transition. These measures are, contrary to what the Deputy says, designed to be progressive.  To give effect to the programme for Government commitment to protect the vulnerable, a targeted package of social protection interventions was developed, which is informed by ESRI research that was commissioned to address this issue specifically.  As of budget 2026, the Government has allocated over \u20ac4.2 billion in carbon tax revenue for these purposes since 2020. ESRI analysis consistently shows those on lower incomes are better off as a result of the social protection measures funded by the increased carbon tax.  In budget 2026, over \u20ac1.1 billion was allocated to climate action measures and to ensure the most vulnerable are protected from the unintended impacts of the increase. This was an increase on the 2025 allocation, and included funding of \u20ac566 million for retrofitting programmes and just transition,\u20ac350 million for targeted social welfare interventions such as the fuel allowance and \u20ac173 million for green and sustainable farming measures. Pausing the carbon tax trajectory current rates would decrease the funding available for these just transition and climate measures, which are demonstrably progressive.  Our need to decouple from fossil fuel dependence and achieve energy security is even more apparent now, given the levels of volatility in international fuel markets. Ireland's long-term commitment to tackling climate change remains strong. Furthermore, as the Deputy will be aware, energy taxation is covered by the energy taxation directive, which sets out excise duty rules covering all energy products in the EU used for heating and transport, as well as electricity. The directive sets out minimum levels of taxation applicable to these energy products for specific uses. For diesel used as a propellant, the minimum rate is \u20ac330 per 1,000 litres, exclusive of VAT. The total rate of mineral oil tax on auto diesel is currently approximately 37 cent per litre, having taken account of the 30 cent reduction that was introduced. When taken together with the diesel rebate scheme maximum repayment rate, which was temporarily increased to 12 cent per litre, qualifying haulage and passenger transport operators pay an effective rate of mineral oil tax of approximately 25 cent per litre. This means that Ireland is currently below the minimum rates allowable under the energy taxation directive by approximately 8 cent in respect of qualifying road haulage and passenger transport operators. In light of this fact, we have engaged with the EU Commission and requested a temporary derogation under Article 19 of the energy taxation directive due to the exceptional circumstances that the conflict in the Middle East has caused.  Finally, the proposed amendments from Deputy Doherty would come at great cost to the Exchequer and jeopardise potentially other areas of investment. That is why Government have introduced a targeted set of temporary supports. The package of measures the Government has introduced totalling over \u20ac750 million is helping to reduce the cost burden at the petrol pump, supporting those most at risk of energy poverty and assisting key sectors such as agriculture and haulage that are critical to keeping our economy moving. These measures are deliberately time-bound and targeted, because our support must be both responsive and responsible. The Government is continuing to act in a way that protects the most vulnerable and sustains our economic stability. As the Taoiseach said on Leaders' Questions earlier today, just has we have in the past, we will keep an eye on the costs. We will keep them monitored and if further interventions are required, there is the capacity to do so.  For the reasons I outlined, I am not proposing to accept these amendments. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pearse Doherty  The Minister of State obviously came down here with his mind made up as well. That is fair enough, but maybe he would help me along the way. Will he convince me of why I should vote to increase the pressure on a neighbour of mine who heats their home with home-heating oil, who does not get fuel allowance, and whose incomes, because they have two incomes coming in, mean they cannot avail of the free retrofit? Why should I stand here and vote to make their life harder every year for the next four years when I know they do not have the money to do a deep retrofit, do not have the money to convert to air to water and do not have the money to buy a new electric vehicle? Why should I do that?  When the Minister of State is on his feet trying to convince me of why I should do that, why I should make life harder for my constituents, maybe he would answer me this as well. Why should I vote for this knowing that the Minister of State is asking me here in this Schedule that, on 1 August 2026, when the D\u00e1il is on holidays, diesel will go up at the pumps by 32 cent and that petrol would go up by 27 cent? Why should I vote tonight to put that in law? How do I turn, go back to Donegal and say to folks that they should not worry, I was their messenger this week, I spoke for them and I made sure that, come 1 August, when the D\u00e1il is on holidays, diesel will go up 32 cent and petrol will go up 27 cent, and I did that because the Minister of State asked me to do it? Will the Minister of State convince me why that is in the interests of my constituents? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cian O'Callaghan  I all the Minister of State said, there was a complete absence of acknowledgment of the very real pain that people on low-to-middle incomes are under in terms of the price increases. If you look at home-heating oil, for example, and people who do not avail of the fuel allowance increase because they are above those thresholds and cannot afford those increases in home-heating oil, the Government does not seem to be acknowledging that. We have put forward proposals. A targeted energy credit of \u20ac400 would be a start to helping households in that situation. We have put forward proposals for investment now, which would mean a long-term and permanent reduction in the cost of living for households that are struggling, by much-improved grants for solar. That would be a once-off investment by Government but it would be a permanent reduction. It would be good for sustainability and good for households that are really struggling.  What is really enraging - the ESRI research backs this up - is that when you look at the huge investment that has gone into grants, it is the households with the most resources, those which needed support least, that have overwhelmingly been able to avail of those different grants. The households really struggling to keep food on the table and to heat their homes are the ones that cannot avail of those grants. They simply do not have the resources to do so and they are the ones that are getting squeezed more and more. What is needed is a change in approach so that the greatest supports go to those households that are really struggling with their bills, that is, the low-to-middle income households. The Minister of State should design the grants for those households in a way that they can access them. In fact, why should households on the highest of incomes be able to avail of those grants? They do not need that support or help at all. Why not prioritise the households that really need it?  The Government keep on talking about targeting but yet, when it comes down to it, that is not what the Government does. The Government needs to be serious about just transition, which we all need to be serious about, and serious about getting support and buy-in for that. The Government approach, however, has ignored that people across the country want to support that but they have to be able to afford to support it. We have put forward two very practical measures the Minister of State could take - targeted energy credits now to help those who need the help most but also measures such as proper grants that can be accessible to low-and-middle income households to install solar so they get a permanent reduction in their bills, and that would be good for the country in terms of helping to break some of our dependence on fossil fuels. I cannot for the life of me understand why the Minister of State would not adopt our proposals. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Robert Troy  I will speak to Deputy O'Callaghan's amendment when we get to it but the one point I would agree with him on is that we should always look at introducing targeted measures to help those who need the greatest level of support the most. The Deputy made the fair point that there is a cohort of people who are above the eligibility thresholds to qualify for the working family payment but need additional supports.  I agree with the Deputy on that and I certainly will fight hard to ensure they get those supports in the upcoming budget.  There were targeted measures introduced in the budget last year. The eligibility criteria for the fuel allowance were extended to include the 40,000 recipients of the working family payment. That was a very targeted measure for working people on low incomes who benefit from social welfare support. They got access to the fuel allowance for the first time. In addition, in recognition of high energy costs as a result of the war in the Middle East, a commitment was given to extend the fuel allowance payment period by four weeks, which gives people an extra \u20ac152 per annum. Again, this is a measure that is very much targeted.  The Deputy talked about measures to facilitate retrofitting and energy upgrades to people's homes. Earlier this year, the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, increased the financial support and grant assistance available to people to upgrade their homes. We are all operators within our own constituencies. From assisting those who come through my constituency office, I know there are now many more people availing of those supports than there were in the past. The credit unions have introduced a greenify loan to support people who want to do upgrades by allowing repayments to be spread over a period at reduced rates. They are enabling people to reap the rewards in a way, as I am sure the Deputy will agree, that is beneficial both for the homeowner and for the environment by helping us to meet our targets. We can agree somewhat on that area.  The measures that were introduced by the Government are some of the most generous in per capita terms across Europe. That is independently verifiable. We probably could keep debating this point until the D\u00e1il rises tonight at 10.30 p.m. or 11 p.m. No matter what measures the Government introduces, it is the job of the Opposition to call for more supports and to say we are not doing enough. We have committed \u20ac750 million in funding to additional measures. Those measures are targeted at the people on the lowest incomes. They are also targeted at sectors of the economy, including transport and agriculture, that are high energy users. We want to assist them in recognition that if energy costs become hugely unbearable to the transport sector, for example, they will be passed on to households. As well as being targeted, the measures are time-specific. As we said from the beginning, we will be keeping them under review.  For the reasons I have outlined, I do not propose to accept the amendments. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pearse Doherty  I challenged the Minister of State to convince me as to why I should make my constituents' lives harder by agreeing to an increase in the price of petrol, diesel, gas and home heating oil every year for the next four years. He did not even try to convince me. These measures are based on a Government ideology or policy. It is the wrong one and, for that reason, I will be pressing amendment No. 1. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Robert Troy  I spoke about some of the additional supports we have been able to implement as a result of the introduction of the carbon tax. I am not sure whether the Deputy was in the Chamber at the time or if he was taking a telephone call outside it. I made the point that carbon tax has a role to play in terms of changing behaviour and helping people who can change to do so. As a representative of a rural constituency, I accept there are not the same alternatives in rural Ireland as there are in large urban areas. It is to protect the people who have been most adversely affected by the carbon tax, namely, those in lower income households, that we introduced deep retrofits for householders who are availing of the fuel allowance and expanded eligibility for the allowance. It is why we have increased the rates of SEAI grants for which people can qualify. For the first time, householders can qualify for grants of up to \u20ac4,000 for windows, grants for new front and back doors and increased levels of support for insulation, including house wrapping.  All of those measures, which were introduced in recent months, are being funded by the carbon tax. The money is being put back in to support people to make the change. In recognition of the huge increase in current fuel costs, which it is not always recognised in this House is something that is outside our control, a decision was made to defer the carbon tax in May this year.  I also said that in the context of the upcoming budget, I will be very forceful as a member of the Government on the need to ensure additional measures are introduced to support working families who may be falling short of eligibility for the benefits of some of the schemes I have mentioned and who need additional support. I acknowledged that need and will work towards addressing it.  What the Deputy is proposing today would cost in the region of at least an additional \u20ac500 million right here and now. For that reason, I cannot and will not accept the amendments. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pearse Doherty  I move amendment No. 2:  In page 6, to delete lines 56 to 67, and in page 7, to delete lines 1 to 5. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question, \u201cThat section 2 stand part of the Bill\u201d, put and declared carried."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 3"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pearse Doherty  I move amendment No. 3:  In page 7, to delete lines 20 to 24. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question, \u201cThat section 3 stand part of the Bill\u201d, put and declared carried."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 4"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pearse Doherty  I move amendment No. 4:  In page 8, to delete lines 1 to 6. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question, \u201cThat section 4 stand part of the Bill\u201d, put and declared carried."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"NEW SECTIONS"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Amendment No. 5 has been ruled out of order. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment No. 5 not moved."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cian O'Callaghan  I move amendment No. 6:  In page 8, between lines 7 and 8, to insert the following:   \u201cReport on impact of an energy credit   5. Within 3 months of the implementation of the new Mineral Oil Tax rates, the Minister shall produce a report on the impact of an energy credit of \u20ac400 for each household with an income up to \u20ac70,000 per annum.\u201d.  This amendment is about the need for targeted energy credits. As I have said before, the Government is making a key mistake in not having targeted energy credits aimed at low-to-middle-income households that are really feeling pain from this cost-of-living crisis and not just from the increases that have happened since the attacks on Iran, given that we were already experiencing a cost-of-living crisis before that. In his earlier comments, the Minister of State failed to acknowledge that disabled people were up to \u20ac1,400 worse off as a result of the budget. This was before any recent increases in home heating oil or any other fuel costs.  The Minister of State said that he agreed that there needed to be more support for those who were the ineligible for the working family payment. He acknowledged that there was a gap for people above that threshold on low and middle incomes, yet the Government will presumably vote down this amendment. Indeed, the Government has failed to introduce a measure like this.  I have to make it very clear that a targeted measure like this is just part of what is needed. A targeted energy credit of \u20ac400 for those who need it most is a start but what is fundamentally missing from the Government's approach and much of this discussion is investment in long-term measures that would permanently bring down the cost of living, such as the proposals that we put forward on solar energy. A targeted energy credit of \u20ac400 should be part and parcel of a wider approach involving measures that mean households will have money off their energy bills for good so that they are better able to meet future energy shocks and cope with this existing cost-of-living crisis, and we as a country are less exposed to energy shocks and fuel price increases. We are one of the most exposed countries in Europe when it comes to this so we have to get out of short-term measures, which are necessary, and take measures that will stand with us over the coming weeks, months and years. A big problem with the approach taken by the Government over the years is the use of short-term measures and we end up with nothing to show for it in the long term. We need that combination of emergency measures, as are proposed in this amendment, and measures that will get us out of the hole and help households over the long term. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ged Nash  I speak in support of this amendment. We in Labour have been long-standing supporters of the proposition that we would use the taxation system to assist people who are finding it very difficult to meet their energy bills. The evidence before us about people's problems meeting electricity bills and utility bills more generally is very clear and apparent to all of us in our everyday work as TDs in our constituencies and our engagement with people on a day-to-day basis. This is a real problem for working people who I remind the Minister of State did not have the benefit of the indexation of their PAYE tax bands, rates and credits last year. They are falling further behind and are finding the going increasingly difficult.  This is about using the taxation system to target support where it is evidently needed the most. We use the social welfare system successfully. I think there is a universal welcome across the House for the expansion of supports for people who depend on the State for their income. The extension of the fuel allowance by a number of weeks is welcome while the inclusion of other cohorts of society in the scheme has been welcomed by everybody. It has been universally acclaimed and welcomed. It is necessary. However, the people who are caught in the middle are the problem. We know for people on higher salaries that the cost-of-living crisis and the increases in energy bills are, dare I say it, inconveniences - things they would prefer not to see but things that, by and large, people on good incomes can absorb. It is the people on incomes of \u20ac70,000 to \u20ac80,000 or below and who are not captured by the fuel allowance scheme who require support. We have used our very sophisticated taxation and revenue collection system before. The Revenue Commissioners is an extraordinary organisation and one of the best organisations in the public service in terms of how it responds to the requirements of the Government and the State. It demonstrated that during the pandemic, introducing the employment wage subsidy scheme and, subsequently, the temporary wage subsidy scheme based on the information and expertise it had. It is very easy to identify the people who would benefit from a targeted energy credit like this.  The simple fact of the matter is that the political will to do it is not there. This is something that will need the Minister of State's attention and the attention of his Government colleagues ahead of October's budget. This is necessary until such time as we have the renewables and retrofitting revolution that is far too slow to happen in this country. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pearse Doherty  I welcome this amendment. I assume it refers to disposable income with regard to households. I believe \u20ac70,000 is a low figure, given the scale of the energy crisis and , in particular, how far it has reached with nearly 320,000 households unable to pay their electricity bills and one in four unable to pay their gas bills. Two earners on quite low wages of \u20ac35,000 each would not be eligible for that support. I know plenty of people on what would be a low income of \u20ac35,000 each and who would really struggle, so that number is low. However, that does not take away from the actual substance of the report being called for because we can always argue about what threshold we should introduce. It is about the principle of ensuring first and foremost that there are energy credits for individuals because of the scale of the challenge facing so many households and, second, that they should be targeted.  This is something that we in our party sat down and discussed with the Commission for Regulation of Utilities, CRU, many years ago. We do not call for targeted measures immediately because they cannot be done. We need to be realistic as to what can be done next week. The CRU has made it clear to us that they cannot be delivered in a week or two weeks, but they can be delivered. In fairness, the Government has had years to deliver a system, between the CRU and the Department of Social Protection, that would allow for the targeting of energy credits in the way Sinn F\u00e9in has proposed, which is a \u20ac400 credit. What we need right now in relation to supports is to have money flowing into the coffers now, not in October, not in November. That is why we continue to argue that the energy credits need to be delivered right now. Obviously, the mistake is that the Government has not designed a system. If a system had been designed the Government, would have been able to target energy credits and we could have had a genuine debate about whether \u20ac70,000, \u20ac80,000 or whatever number is the point the energy credits were targeted at.  I agree with the amendment on two points. First, energy credits should be available. Second, they should be targeted. I have a question for the Minister of State. This is part of the toolkit, unfortunately, because of the high energy costs that the State is paying. A report came out just last week showing that while we know we have the highest electricity costs in Europe, we are told that we have the second highest electricity costs in the world. This stuff is mental in a country that used to have some of the cheapest electricity prices. We still have companies making huge profits on the backs of ordinary people. The Government simply has not done the homework to design a system between the regulator and the Departments of Social Protection and Finance to look at how we can ensure that energy credits can flow to people in a very simple, straightforward way, one where people do not have to apply and the credits just come off their bills, and where the credits can be targeted. That is a case of joining up systems and doing the homework. I urge the Government to do that work. These types of amendment that call for a report are the instigation of that.  I support the amendment. I have small reservations about the household income for the reasons I outlined. Many households that would be struggling would still not get the benefit of this. More importantly, there is no point calling for something unless the system is created and that is the intention behind the amendment, namely, to force the Government into doing something it should have done four years ago.  The Government will probably turn around in October and introduce energy credits. See if it does. Credits should be delivered now, but for God's sake, do the work so that, in a couple of months' time, the Government will have the ability to target them. Energy credits should not be going to holiday homes. We have called this out so many times. There are people, in this House and elsewhere, who got energy credits and have multiple properties. It is absolutely nuts and it went on for years. At the start of a massive challenge when things happen, the Government sometimes has to respond fluidly and do things, and maybe people get supports they should not have got. We saw this during the pandemic and so forth. That is all right in the first couple of weeks or even the first months of a crisis, but it is not acceptable four years on. It is not acceptable that it does not exist in our toolbox that we can deliver energy credits to families and that there is no ability between the Department and the CRU to target them at whatever level we agree. That it simply does not exist is appalling and an indictment of the Government and its lazy attitude to dealing with these issues. That type of measure should exist as part of its toolbox so that it can support households at a time of need. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Robert Troy  I thank Deputy O'Callaghan for raising this issue. To be fair to him, the amendment calls for a report to be published within \"3 months of the implementation of the new Mineral Oil Tax rates ... on the impact of an energy credit of \u20ac400 for each household with an income up to \u20ac70,000 per annum.\" While I accept he is trying to generate a debate here today and that it will not put a cost on the Exchequer here and now, but I presume what he is trying to do is to ensure that this can feed into the budgetary process for the budget that is a number of months away. I do agree, and as I said at the outset, the way we should be helping people is through targeted supports. We have demonstrated our commitment to helping those who are in the most need of support through the fuel allowance and extending the eligibility criteria for the working family payment, which ensured that an extra 40,000 people on the working family payment got a fuel allowance for the very first time, but we do need to go further. There is an acknowledgement, certainly from my party in government, that there are a cohort of people who are falling short of some of the supports that were introduced. That is why there is a determination by us in government to ensure that we look to that cohort in the upcoming budget.  The budgetary process is well under way for budget 2027. In the past number of days, we had the national economic dialogue, which brought together civil society, the Government, union representatives, and representatives of business, academia and research. My Department will look at all available data from the Central Statistics Office, CSO, the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, and other State agencies and representative bodies in order to put together a budget that will be fair, impactful and progressive. That is what we want to achieve. In the next number of weeks, we will see the summer economic statement, which will outline the spending parameters open to us for budget 2027. I assure all Deputies that all data will be looked at to ensure that we bring forward a budget that is fair. They will have the opportunity, when budget day comes, to present an alternative budget, as is the case every single year. At that stage, the Deputies will have to come forward with proposals that are costed and we will have an opportunity to compare our respective positions.  A point that has been made on a number of occasions is about cuts that were implemented to particular sections of society when temporary measures concluded. The difficulty is when you introduce temporary measures, and when they are reintroduced for a time, people tend to have them embedded into their daily living and their expectations. In particular, Deputy O'Callaghan referenced people in receipt of disability payments who, when their temporary measures expired, were at a loss. That was the case, but they were temporary measures that were introduced at a particular time. There is a commitment, and work is well advanced, to introduce permanent measures to ensure that we put in place the right supports, not on a temporary basis, but on a permanent one into the future. In budget 2027, we will see the Government living up to our commitment in that regard.  It is important that we invest in our infrastructure and that is why the Government approved the landmark \u20ac3.5 billion investment in Ireland's electricity grid infrastructure across 2026 to 2030 as part of the national development plan. This represents the largest single investment in the country's electricity network in its history. A sum of \u20ac1.5 billion was allocated to ESB Networks and \u20ac2 billion to EirGrid, which will enable both companies to significantly increase capital investment to expand their onshore and offshore electricity transmission and distribution network infrastructure, which is critical as we move away from fossil fuels. The Electricity (Supply) (Amendment) Act 2025 enacted last November provided the legal mechanism for the State to make a \u20ac1.5 billion equity investment in ESB Networks and increase its statutory borrowing limit from \u20ac12 billion to \u20ac17 billion.  The \u20ac1.5 billion was transferred from the Central Fund to the ESB in mid-December, ensuring ESB Networks can begin delivering on this ambitious onshore grid investment programme next year. Work is happening on putting in place the necessary investment in infrastructure for this transmission. We are all at one that we would like to see it accelerated and done in a more efficient manner. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cian O'Callaghan  I find it extraordinary that the reaction to the withdrawal of temporary supports on which people had relied seemed to come as a surprise to the Government and Ministers. People on a low income got a temporary support. To withdraw this support and not put a permanent support in its place was unforgivable. Disabled people on low incomes were absolutely reliant on those temporary measures. They were taken away with a promise that the Government was working on the permanent measures and people were told to wait until they were put in place. This winter people were in very tough circumstances when those temporary supports were taken with a promise of a permanent measure in future. This is no good. People cannot heat their homes on the promise of permanent measures.  The Minister of State has said he will look at all of the available data. I ask him to look immediately at the figures from the Central Statistics Office which show the rate of those aged over 65 who are in consistent poverty increased by 70% in just one year. This was as a direct result of choices the Government has made. T\u00e1 ruda\u00ed go dona ach go h\u00e1irithe mar gheall go ndearna an Rialtas na roghanna m\u00edchearta, ach n\u00ed bh\u00edonn s\u00e9 roghnach riamh an rud ceart a dh\u00e9anamh. The Government can always do the right thing. It can do the right thing now by introducing targeted energy credits as an emergency measure. As has been pointed out, the Government has had ample time and warning to put in place its systems for this, and if its intention is to do something in the budget it has plenty of time to get its act in order on it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Robert Troy  Temporary measures are temporary measures; that is the nature of a temporary measure. What did happen in the previous budget was the largest increase in investment in the disability sector on record, with an almost 20% increase on the previous year. My colleague tells me it was \u20ac620 million. That is how much additional funding was put into disability services, daycare and respite. These are all areas that people with a disability have been looking for. There is a commitment this year, and the Minister, Deputy Calleary, has already begun work on a permanent cost-of-living measure for people with a disability. I want to put that on the record of the House this evening.  Deputy O'Callaghan mentioned people aged over 65. This is why in the previous budget there was an increase in the rate of fuel allowance paid weekly. There was a change in the eligibility criteria, an increase in the weekly rate and an increase in how much people can have in terms of the means test. There was also an increase in the number of the weeks paid out. Measures have been put in place to help address people who are affected the most adversely by high energy costs. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cian O'Callaghan  I do not want to take away from the investment in disability services, which was absolutely necessary and we have a distance to go there. It is good that progress is being made and it is long overdue. Disabled people make the point very strongly that they are not just people who use services. In fact, a lot of disabled people do not necessarily use services. They need to be able to live, survive and thrive independently. It is a fact we have the highest unemployment rate of disabled people in Europe. That is an area that absolutely has to be addressed because it should not just be an issue of income support. It should be an issue, as in other European countries, of disabled people being able to participate fully. Of course, having a basic income to be able to participate fully, including in the employment market, is key, which is why it is important. I know measures are temporary but to introduce temporary measures, take them out, acknowledge that permanent measures are needed and say the work has not been done on them leaves people in a very difficult situation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pearse Doherty  The Minister of State does not sit at the Cabinet table but the 15 Ministers who sat around the Cabinet table last October and made a decision to withdraw energy credits made a decision to leave people with disabilities \u20ac1,400 worse off. At a time when they knew that prices were going to continue to go up, and at a time when they knew that so many families were under pressure, what did they think was going to happen? What was going to happen is what we have seen materialise in front of our eyes, which is that more and more people have fallen into financial pressure. Each month more and more families cannot pay their electricity bills or gas bills. I see it when I speak to people. Sometimes we get numb to the numbers. Sometimes numbers such as half a million just roll off our tongues but 320,000 families are not able to pay their electricity bills and 180,000 families are not able to pay their gas bills. This is massive. Many of these families have two, three or four people in their household. Just think about what this looks like. Think about how many times Croke Park would be filled over and over again with the people who cannot pay for their basics in the Ireland of 2026, and who cannot pay for their electricity or their gas. We could fill Croke Park ten times over and there would still be queues of people outside, young and old, who say they also cannot pay their electricity or gas bills. The decision of the Government was to withdraw the only support they relied on. Knowing that the pressure was getting worse and that inflation was continuing to rise, it withdrew the supports.  What it did to people with disability, leaving them \u20ac1,400 worse off, was disgraceful. I called it out on budget night. The cost of disability is real. We thought the Government finally understood this when it paid a lump sum that was higher than in the past to people with disability but instead what it did was took away those supports that people depended on. This is why so many people are angry, frustrated and under serious pressure.  There are policies the Government can deliver that would provide benefits to people right here and right now. Earlier when speaking on this legislation I said the only guarantee the Irish people have is that carbon tax is going up to make petrol and diesel dearer, to make home heating oil dearer, to make the cost of gas dearer and to make the cost of a bag of coal dearer. The only guarantee people have is that Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael will put it up every single year for the next four years. There is no guarantee in terms of what people on social welfare or people with disabilities depend on and how much more they can expect in the next couple of years. There is no legislation to say what it will look like for them. What the Government is doing is wrong. T\u00e1 an rud at\u00e1 an Rialtas ag d\u00e9anamh go huile agus go hioml\u00e1n contr\u00e1ilte. T\u00e1imid in Sinn F\u00e9in ag cur molta\u00ed chun tosaigh ar\u00eds agus ar\u00eds eile ag r\u00e1 go soil\u00e9ir - is sampla iad na ceithre leasuithe at\u00e1 curtha s\u00edos agam anocht - go bhfuil tuilleadh taca\u00edochta de dh\u00edth ar ghn\u00e1thdhaoine na t\u00edre seo, agus go bhfuil an t-airgead sa t\u00edr seo leis an taca\u00edocht sin a chur ar f\u00e1il. Is \u00e9 an rud at\u00e1 in easnamh anseo n\u00e1 Rialtas a thuigeann an br\u00fa at\u00e1 ar ghn\u00e1thdhaoine na t\u00edre seo. N\u00edl an Rialtas r\u00e9idh agus s\u00e1sta beart a dh\u00e9anamh le cuidi\u00fa leo. T\u00e1 an cuidi\u00fa sin de dh\u00edth ar dhaoine fud fad na t\u00edre seo. T\u00e1 s\u00e9 contr\u00e1ilte go bhfuil an Rialtas ag tabhairt isteach reachta\u00edochta agus ag r\u00e1 le daoine sa t\u00edr seo go bhfuil s\u00e9 ag cur suas an praghas ar dh\u00edosal faoi 32 cent ar an 1 L\u00fanasa agus an praghas ar pheitreal faoi 27 cent ar an l\u00e1 c\u00e9anna, agus ag ard\u00fa an praghas ar pheitreal agus ar dh\u00edosal ar\u00eds i m\u00ed Dheireadh F\u00f3mhair mar aon le hola le haghaidh t\u00e9amh t\u00ed. Sin an f\u00e1th go seasann Sinn F\u00e9in in \u00e9adan na reachta\u00edochta seo.  Sin an f\u00e1th fosta go dtabharfaimid taca\u00edocht don leas\u00fa at\u00e1 os \u00e1r gcomhair le cinnte a dh\u00e9anamh de go bhfuil taca\u00edocht ansin do dhaoine sa t\u00edr seo \u00f3 thaobh costais fuinnimh de. T\u00e1 320,000 duine fud fad na t\u00edre seo nach bhfuil \u00e1balta a gcuid bill\u00ed leictreachais a dh\u00edol agus duine as achan ceathrar nach bhfuil \u00e1balta a gcuid bill\u00ed g\u00e1is a dh\u00edol. Is \u00e9 an f\u00e1th go bhfuil s\u00e9 sin ag tarl\u00fa n\u00e1 go bhfuil Rialtas againn nach dtuigeann an br\u00fa at\u00e1 ar dhaoine. T\u00e1 an t-airgead sa t\u00edr ach n\u00edl an toil pholaiti\u00fail ansin. Tugaim taca\u00edocht don leas\u00fa seo ach seasaim in \u00e9adan na reachta\u00edochta at\u00e1 an Rialtas ag cur chun tosaigh f\u00e1 choinne na f\u00e1thanna at\u00e1 curtha chun tosaigh agam anseo. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Robert Troy  One basic point people fail to acknowledge and recognise is that the huge increase in energy prices is not as a consequence of decisions taken by the Government but as a consequence of an issue happening in the Middle East. That is not of the Government\u2019s making. I think we can all agree on that. This is what has been the biggest driver in the increase in the cost of energy since the crisis began. As a consequence of and in reply to that, the Government did take corrective actions, not once but twice. This was to the tune of a total of \u20ac750 million. We are never going to agree because no matter how much we did on this side of the House, those on the other side of the House will say we should have done more and gone further. They do not even recognise that we made interventions, and that this action was one of the largest across the EU.  On Leaders; Questions today, the Taoiseach gave a firm commitment that the situation would be kept under continuous review. We have to acknowledge, thankfully, that the price of a barrel of crude oil is much lower now than it was at its peak. Thankfully, the signs seem positive in relation to a peace deal in the Middle East and, hopefully, that will open up the Strait of Hormuz. This will see a huge increase in the supply, which will, hopefully, bring down the cost of oil even further. We, therefore, have to be agile and responsive to what is happening on the international stage because this is what is affecting the cost of energy in Ireland today.  The differences regarding the benefits of the carbon tax have been exposed among the people on the Opposition benches. The most recent votes identified this. A sizeable majority in this D\u00e1il supports it and supports what is being done to ensure that the revenue generated by the carbon tax is reinvested to protect those who need the greater support through the fuel allowance, social welfare payments, investment in environmental and agricultural schemes in the agriculture sector, Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI, grants to help people retrofit their homes and a deep retrofit for those who need it the most, namely those people at risk of energy poverty and receiving social welfare fuel allowance. The tens of thousands of households that have benefited from that welcome it.  I assist people in this regard, and I acknowledge everybody does in this Chamber. We assist people daily and weekly in our clinics and in our constituencies. If we talk to anybody, in the context of the fuel allowance, who has had the benefit of a deep retrofit and the benefit they have derived, they will speak about the improved quality of life in their homes and the huge reduction in what they are spending weekly, monthly or bimonthly on energy to heat their homes. That is a permanent support for people at risk of energy poverty. It is a permanent benefit that we have been able to provide because of the carbon tax, and that is never acknowledged when Deputy Doherty gets up to speak.  I have outlined that our budgetary process has commenced. I acknowledge that more needs to be done in relation to people who are working and who are finding it difficult in terms of the cost of living. Work is ongoing to ensure that people get that extra support in budget 2027. We will see that when the Minister, Deputy Chambers, and the Minister, Deputy Harris, get up to deliver the budget in a few short months. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pearse Doherty  I need to put a few home truths on the record here because the Minister of State cannot get away with that. He cannot continue to come in here and say that carbon tax revenue is all going to fund X, Y and Z. Does he seriously think the Comptroller and Auditor General is lying, or does he just want to ignore what the Comptroller and Auditor General has said in his reports? Let us have an honest conversation about this topic. The Comptroller and Auditor General has said very clearly that hundreds of millions of euro being brought in from carbon tax cannot be identified as going to any of the intended causes: retrofits, climate change and social welfare payments. The carbon tax cannot be identified as going to those ends. This amounts to hundreds of millions of euro. This is not Sinn F\u00e9in speaking but the Comptroller and Auditor General before the Committee of Public Accounts. It is in black and white and there for everybody to see. I ask the Minister of State to stop spouting the stuff he is saying because it is not true.  We have shown the Government time and again not only how it can deliver retrofits and environmentally-friendly programmes but that it can do so in a better way that is not a transfer of taxpayers' money to people who are already wealthy, those who can already afford to buy their electric vehicle or do the deep retrofit, and still get the grants. We need to make sure that more of that money flows into the households that cannot afford to do this, and that is why we need to see a restructuring of the grants. We also need to see more money spent on these programmes and we do not need carbon tax to do this. The Government could look at other types of tax.  I have a novel idea for the Minister of State in this regard, and I ask him to think about it for a second. Stop picking the pockets of my neighbour, who cannot afford an electric vehicle, and pick the pockets of the banks, which made \u20ac3 billion in profits last year. The Government allowed them to pay 1% in tax. Why not do this? Why not let the banks fund energy retrofits? Why is the Government picking the pockets of my neighbour?  The Minister of State spoke about what this legislation is about and that the energy crisis has been created by the war in Iran. Of course, the latest version of this has been created by the war in Iran. Nobody disputes that and, hopefully, some of this will settle but it does not let the Government off the hook. This Government is instrumental in driving up the costs of gas, electricity, petrol, diesel, home heating oil, a bag of coal and a bale of briquettes. It has been doing this every year for the past six years and it plans to continue doing it for the next four years. It is in the legislation. It is what the Minister of State is asking me to vote for. I am not voting for it because it is not just Trump and his antics driving up these costs. The Government is driving up these costs. This legislation is driving up these costs. How am I supposed to turn around to people in Gweedore, Letterkenny or Killybegs on 1 August and explain to them how the hell, under God, I voted for legislation that put up the price of diesel by 32%? They will think I do not understand what they are dealing with at the minute. That is what the Minister of State is asking me to do, and I am not doing it.  I am also calling out the Minister of State because some of the stuff he is saying is simply not true. If we want to have a debate, then let us have an honest debate. I ask the Minister of State, however, to please acknowledge what the Comptroller and Auditor General has said, namely that hundreds of millions of euro of carbon tax is not ring-fenced for the intended purposes. If the Minister of State wants, I will quote exactly what he has said. Between 2020 and 2023, the Comptroller and Auditor General cannot say where more than \u20ac500 million has been spent in terms of the intended projects. The Government keeps on saying that the carbon tax revenue is ring-fenced for these measures when it is not. Does the Minister of State want to stand there and say that the Comptroller and Auditor General, and his office, is simply wrong and misleading the public and the D\u00e1il? If the Minister of State is not willing to stand there and say that, I ask him to stop misleading the D\u00e1il and the public, and to have an honest debate in relation to where carbon tax goes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Robert Troy  The Deputy has had the vote, so he can go back and claim he has taken that position. The House has had to vote on his amendment. It was comprehensively beaten, not just by the Government Members but by other Members in the D\u00e1il who support the model that has been implemented because they can see the benefit of it in terms of the money being reinvested.  I will just give the Deputy a flavour. In budget 2026, \u20ac1.114 billion was allocated for climate measures and to ensure the most vulnerable would be protected from the unintended consequences of the tax increase. This is \u20ac163 million more than the 2025 allocation. There is \u20ac566 million for the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment for retrofitting programmes, just transition and the ODA green climate fund, representing an increase of \u20ac89 million on the amount for 2025; \u20ac350 million for the Department of Social Protection for targeted social welfare interventions, representing an increase of \u20ac44 million on the amount for 2025; \u20ac173 million for the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine for green and sustainable farming measures, representing an increase of \u20ac30 million on the amount for 2025; \u20ac20 million for the Department of Transport for the continuation of carbon tax-funded programmes; and \u20ac5 million for the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage for the continuation of carbon tax-funded programmes. That is how the money that was collected is being spent. We can agree to disagree on the policy proposal, but that is where we are. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pearse Doherty  The Minister of State started talking about a couple of million here and a couple of million there. I have called him out in relation to what he is saying over and over again about the revenue being reinvested. I am asking him, and challenging him here in the D\u00e1il, either to stand over what he is saying or call out the Comptroller and Auditor General. You cannot have it both ways. Who is telling the fibs here? The Minister of State is saying that carbon tax is completely reinvested and the Comptroller and Auditor General is saying not under his watch, not that he can find. He is saying that between 2020 and 2023, about \u20ac500 million of the \u20ac1.3 billion brought in did not go towards the intended scheme. Therefore, the Minister of State should please stop. I am challenging him here now. Does he stand over what he is saying? He should please answer this question: is the Comptroller and Auditor General wrong, or is all the revenue reinvested? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  This is Deputy O\u2019Callaghan\u2019s amendment and he has said twice he is pressing it. Does he wish to press it now or shall I go back to the Minister? We have ten minutes left. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cian O'Callaghan  I am happy to let the Minister in again but I wish to press the amendment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pearse Doherty  I am finished. I appreciate that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Okay. I thank the Deputies. After the Minister of State\u2019s comments, Deputy O\u2019Callaghan may press the amendment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Robert Troy  What I am quoting are the figures from 2025 and 2026. I have outlined how the \u20ac1.114 billion was allocated to each Department. I cannot break it down in granular form for the Deputy here today, but what I am outlining, at a high level, is how the money collected is going back to the various Departments. When carbon tax was introduced initially, my understanding was that the first \u20ac20 was not ring-fenced and that anything over and above that was for the measures I have outlined already. I will come back to the Deputy on what he is saying about the period 2020 to 2023. The figures I have quoted this evening are from 2025 and to date in 2026.  Fundamentally, the Deputy is opposed to the policy. I recognise that. He has been consistent in his approach to it, and that is fair and is his prerogative. What we have said is that this is a policy that has been introduced to change behaviour. It has been done in a way to protect those at the lowest income levels from unintended consequences and to generate funding that can be reinvested in permanent measures that will help people through environmental schemes in agriculture, deep retrofitting and the increases in the SEAI grants, which the relevant Minister, Deputy O\u2019Brien, announced earlier this year. The figures I have spoken about are for 2025 and 2026. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  The time permitted for this debate having expired, I am now required to put the following question in accordance with an order of the D\u00e1il of 9 June: \"That in respect of each of the sections undisposed of, the section is hereby agreed to in Committee, the Title is hereby agreed to in Committee, the Bill is accordingly reported to the House without amendment, Fourth Stage is hereby completed and the Bill is hereby passed.\" "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Finance Bill 2026: Committee and Remaining Stages"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_57","debateType":"billReport","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2025\/5","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2025\/5\/dail\/4_sub","houseCode":"dail","stage":"4_sub","isBillStage":false,"showAs":"Insurance (Disregard of Certain Medical History and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2025: Report and Final Stages (D\u00e1il)"}},"showAs":"Insurance (Disregard of Certain Medical History and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2025: Report and Final Stages","counts":{"speechCount":7,"speakerCount":4},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_57","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  I call Deputy Ged Nash to move amendment No. 1 which arises out of committee proceedings. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ged Nash  I move amendment No. 1:  In page 5, between lines 31 and 32, to insert the following:  \u201c(7) For the purposes of this section, a person is not precluded from being in complete remission by reason only of the fact that the person is receiving\u2014  (a) anti-hormonal medications, or  (b) any form of preventative therapy or medicine intended to reduce the risk of recurrence of cancer following the end of active cancer treatment.\u201d  I thank the Minister of State for the way in which he has engaged with me on this matter in recent days. I think he accepts that we in the Labour Party proposed this amendment in good faith. I might describe it as a belt and braces approach to the particular provision in the Bill. The intention is to strengthen and galvanise it and ensure there is no ambiguity in any respect in terms of how this provision is interpreted by the insurance industry when people are in the position that they ought to have access to disregards and where there may be issues around it, intentional or otherwise. I think the Minister of State accepts this was proposed in good faith and in the spirit that we want to see the full Bill implemented so that there will not be any ambiguity whatsoever about any definitions in it, such as about what \"remission\" or \"five years beyond active treatment\" mean because those two tests are contained in the Bill.  I am aware the Minister of State has received clear advice on his view there is no ambiguity and that the full intention and spirit of the Bill will be implemented. However, this is designed to avoid any ambiguity that might arise, especially in relation to the requirement of some cancer survivors who are in remission to receive ongoing hormonal treatment. That would apply, as the Minister of State is aware, primarily in the case of breast cancer survivors who have had a HER2-positive diagnosis and also in the case of some prostate cancers that are typically hormonally-driven and require the taking of medication on an ongoing basis.  I would appreciate it if the Minister of State would put on record his position on the amendment. It would be a worthwhile exercise in itself just to establish the advice he has. I ask him to provide some clarity on his position on this and some reassurance that the Bill and the provision as currently drafted is, for want of a better description, bulletproof. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cian O'Callaghan  I put on record the strong support of the Social Democrats for this Bill. I compliment the Minister of State, Deputy Ardagh, and all who have worked on this on a cross-party basis, including the Irish Cancer Society and the volunteers from that society. It is an excellent example of how this Oireachtas can and should work very effectively. We need to see more of this approach to legislation progressing not just from Cabinet but from backbenchers across the Oireachtas.  I support Deputy Nash's amendment. It is a very good effort to try to ensure there is not ambiguity in the Bill and he raises an important point. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Finance (Deputy Robert Troy)  To the Deputy's latter point, I am always open to good suggestions from the Opposition; I am just not sure it always come forward with them. I say that in jest. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ged Nash  I know. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Robert Troy  In all seriousness, I acknowledge all Members of the D\u00e1il in terms of their co-operation and their positive engagement on this legislation since it was first introduced by my colleague the Minister of State, Deputy Ardagh, when she was a backbench TD.  I fully appreciate the amendment is coming from a position of good faith and I am not at all questioning Deputy Nash's bona fides in relation to the reason for advancing it. The Government has considered the proposal to insert a new subsection that would provide a person shall not be regarded as precluded from being in complete remission solely by reason of receiving anti-hormonal medications or preventative therapies or medicine and understands the underlying concern this is aimed at addressing. While the intent of the amendment is acknowledged and understood, the Government does not consider it necessary to include this provision as the legislation provides \"complete remission\" is determined by an oncologist on request. The five-year threshold only applies to primary treatment such as surgery or chemotherapy, which is considered \"active cancer treatment\". Anti-hormonal medications or any form of preventative therapy or medicine intended to reduce the risk of reoccurrence of cancer following the end of active cancer treatment are excluded from consideration for the disregard. For example, industry has clarified that an applicant who had surgery for breast cancer five years ago and is certified as being in complete remission by an oncologist but still takes anti-hormonal medication would qualify for the disregard under this legislation.  The Bill as amended clearly defines \"active cancer treatment\" in section 3 and explicitly provides this does not include anti-hormonal medications or any form of preventative therapy or medicine intended to reduce the risk of reoccurrence following the end of active treatment. Individuals who are receiving these therapies or medications are already regarded, for the purpose of this Bill, as having completed active cancer treatment where all other criteria are met. The Bill therefore already accommodates the scenario where an applicant is no longer being treated for cancer and is in remission but may be taking medication or undergoing therapy for preventative reoccurrence.  Officials in my Department engaged with the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel to the Government, representatives of the insurance industry, the Irish Society of Medical Oncology, the Society of Actuaries in Ireland and very importantly, the Irish Cancer Society, which the Deputy has engaged with, on this definition. The result of this consultation is a definition that closely follows that of the voluntary code. Additional consultation with industry has certified that, in practice, insurers do not consider medication to prevent reoccurrence as rendering applicants ineligible. Consequently, I do not propose to accept the amendment despite the Deputy's good intentions. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Bill received for final consideration and passed."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  The Bill will now be sent to the Seanad. Congratulations to all concerned. It is one of my favourite times to be in the Chair. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Cuireadh an D\u00e1il ar fionra\u00ed ar 8.17 p.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 8.20 p.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Sitting suspended at 8.17 p.m. and resumed at 8.20 p.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Insurance (Disregard of Certain Medical History and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2025: Report and Final Stages"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_58","debateType":"debate","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2024\/18","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2024\/18\/dail\/seanad_amd","houseCode":"dail","stage":"seanad_amd","isBillStage":false,"showAs":"Microenterprise Loan Fund (Amendment) Bill 2024: From the Seanad (D\u00e1il)"}},"showAs":"Microenterprise Loan Fund (Amendment) Bill 2024: From the Seanad","counts":{"speechCount":2,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_58","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The D\u00e1il went into Committee to consider amendments from the Seanad."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Seanad amendment No. 1:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 8: In page 5, to delete lines 24 and 25 and substitute \u201cMinister for Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation.\u201d."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Seanad amendments Nos. 1 to 3, inclusive, and Nos. 6 to 11, inclusive, are related and may be discussed together. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Seanad amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Seanad amendment No. 2:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 9: In page 6, to delete lines 7 and 8 and substitute \u201cthe Minister for Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation, may determine.\u201d."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Seanad amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Seanad amendment No. 3:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 9: In page 7, to delete line 9 and substitute \u201cExpenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation.\u201d."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Seanad amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Seanad amendment No. 4:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 12: In page 9, between lines 25 and 26, to insert the following:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" \u201cInsertion of sections 16A and 16B into Act of 2012 "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"12. The Act of 2012 is amended by the insertion of the following sections after section 16:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" \u201cStaff of Microfinance Ireland "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"16A. (1) Microfinance Ireland may, with the approval of the Minister and the consent of the Minister for Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation, appoint such and so many persons to be members of the staff of Microfinance Ireland as it from time to time considers appropriate."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(2) The grades of the staff of Microfinance Ireland and the numbers of staff in each grade shall be determined by Microfinance Ireland with the consent of the Minister and the Minister for Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(3) The staff of Microfinance Ireland shall be employed on such terms and conditions as may be determined by Microfinance Ireland from time to time subject to the approval of the Minister and the consent of the Minister for Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(4) There shall be paid by Microfinance Ireland to the members of its staff such remuneration and allowances for expenses as may be determined by Microfinance Ireland with the approval of the Minister and the consent of the Minister for Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(5) Where a member of staff of Microfinance Ireland is\u2014"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(a) nominated as a member of Seanad \u00c9ireann,"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(b) elected as a member of either House of the Oireachtas or to be a member of the European Parliament,"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(c) regarded pursuant to Part XIII of the Second Schedule to the European Parliament Elections Act 1997 as having been elected to the European Parliament, or"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(d) elected or co-opted as a member of a local authority, he or she shall stand seconded from employment by Microfinance Ireland and shall not be paid by, or be entitled to receive from, Microfinance Ireland any remuneration or allowances for expenses in respect of the period commencing on such nomination, election or co-option, as the case may be, and ending when such person ceases to be a member of either such House, member of such Parliament or member of a local authority."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(6) A period of secondment referred to in subsection (5) shall not, for the purposes of any superannuation benefit, be reckoned as service with Microfinance Ireland."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Existing staff of Microfinance Ireland "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"16B. (1) Each person who was a member of staff of Microfinance Ireland immediately before the appointed day shall, on the appointed day, be deemed to be a member of staff of Microfinance Ireland for the period remaining unexpired (if any) under the contract of employment under which he or she was employed by Microfinance Ireland as if he or she had been appointed under section 16A."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(2) A person referred to in subsection (1) shall be subject to such terms and conditions of service, including terms and conditions relating to remuneration, as are not less favourable than the terms and conditions of service, including terms and conditions relating to remuneration, to which the person was subject immediately before the appointed day."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(3) In subsection (2), the reference to terms and conditions relating to remuneration does not include terms and conditions relating to superannuation."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(4) In relation to a person referred to in subsection (1), previous service with Microfinance Ireland prior to the appointed day shall be reckonable for the purposes of, but subject to any exceptions or exclusions in, the following:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(a) the Redundancy Payments Acts 1967 to 2022;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(b) the Protection of Employees (Part-Time Work) Act 2001;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(c) the Protection of Employees (Fixed-Term Work) Act 2003;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(d) the Organisation of Working Time Act 1997;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(e) the Terms of Employment (Information) Acts 1994 to 2014;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(f) the Minimum Notice and Terms of Employment Acts 1973 to 2005;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(g) the Unfair Dismissals Acts 1977 to 2015;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(h) the Maternity Protection Acts 1994 to 2022;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(i) the Parental Leave Acts 1998 to 2023;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(j) the Adoptive Leave Acts 1995 and 2005;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(k) the Carer\u2019s Leave Act 2001;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(l) the Paternity Leave and Benefit Act 2016;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(m) the Parent\u2019s Leave and Benefit Act 2019."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(5) In this section, \u201cappointed day\u201d means the day appointed by order under section 12(3A).\u201d.\u201d."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Seanad amendment No. 5:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 13: In page 9, to delete line 35 and substitute \u201cof section 13 of the Microenterprise Loan Fund (Amendment) Act 2026, Microfinance Ireland shall, with the approval of the\u201d."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Seanad amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Seanad amendment No. 6:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 13: In page 10, to delete lines 1 and 2 and substitute \u201cMinister and the consent of the Minister for Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation, make a scheme or\u201d."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Seanad amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Seanad amendment No. 7:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 13: In page 10, to delete lines 11 and 12 and substitute \u201cconsent of the Minister for Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation, make a scheme amending or revoking a\u201d."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Seanad amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Seanad amendment No. 8:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 13: In page 10, to delete lines 19 and 20 and substitute \u201csubject to the agreement of the Minister for Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation, make a\u201d."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Seanad amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Seanad amendment No. 9:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 13: In page 10, to delete lines 25 and 26 and substitute \u201cwith the consent of the Minister and the Minister for Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation.\u201d."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Seanad amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Seanad amendment No. 10:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 14: In page 11, to delete line 2 and substitute \u201cExpenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation, make\u201d."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Seanad amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Seanad amendment No. 11:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Title: In page 3, line 7, to delete \u201cMinister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment\u201d and substitute \u201cMinister for Enterprise, Tourism and Employment\u201d."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Seanad amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Seanad amendments reported."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  A message will be sent to Seanad \u00c9ireann acquainting it that D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann has agreed to amendments Nos. 1 to 11, inclusive, made by Seanad \u00c9ireann to the Microenterprise Loan Fund (Amendment) Bill 2024. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Sitting suspended at 8.22 p.m. and resumed at 8.27 p.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Microenterprise Loan Fund (Amendment) Bill 2024: From the Seanad"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_59","debateType":"motion","bill":null,"showAs":"EU Directive on Combating Firearms Trafficking: Motion","counts":{"speechCount":12,"speakerCount":10},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_59","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Ardagh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Carrigy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Nicholas Gogarty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Carol Nolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mattie McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Ardagh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration (Deputy Catherine Ardagh)  I move:  That D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann approves the exercise by the State of the option or discretion under Protocol No. 21 on the position of the United Kingdom and Ireland in respect of the area of freedom, security and justice annexed to the Treaty on European Union and to the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, to take part in the adoption and application of the following proposed measure:  Proposal for a DIRECTIVE OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL on combating firearms trafficking and other firearms-related offences and amending Directive (EU) 2024\/1260 of the European Parliament and of the Council,  a copy of which was laid before D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann on 18th March, 2026.  I thank the House for facilitating this motion. I welcome the opportunity to address the D\u00e1il on Ireland's opt-in to a new EU proposal for a directive on combating firearms trafficking and other firearms-related offences.  Ireland has an option, provided for in Article 3.1 of Protocol 21 annexed to the Treaty of Lisbon, to opt in to individual proposals in the area of freedom, security and justice. The protocol provides that Ireland has three months from the date a proposal is presented to the Council to notify the Presidency of the Council of its wish to take part in the negotiation, adoption and application of the measure. The three-month period for this proposal ends on 23 June 2026. The exercise of the opt-in is subject to the approval of both Houses of the Oireachtas, so it has been necessary to bring this proposal to the Houses as swiftly as possible. Ireland can accept a proposal at any time after it has been adopted but in such cases Ireland will not have been in a position to vote on the final content of the proposal. It must also be noted that Ireland made a declaration appended to the Treaty of Lisbon of its intention to opt in to measures in the area of freedom, security and justice to the maximum extent it deems possible.  The EU has previously adopted several instruments regulating the legal acquisition and possession of firearms. Opting in to this measure in relation to firearms trafficking provides an important opportunity for Ireland to reiterate our commitment to tackling illicit firearms, the trafficking of which poses a serious threat to both our and our European neighbours\u2019 security, and beyond.  On 26 February, the European Commission put forward this proposal with the intention to combat firearms trafficking and other firearms-related offences. The aim is to introduce a EU-wide framework with common definitions of firearms offences and penalties, support stronger co-operation between member states and improve the collection and use of data. The proposal also closes the gap when it comes to the misuse of 3D printing for illicit weapons production and includes an obligation for member states to establish a national firearms focal point to better enable operational co-operation between member states.  Illicit firearms pose a serious threat to the security of all EU citizens. They enable a wide range of serious and organised crimes, including drug trafficking, extortion, robbery and gang violence.  The issue has intensified due to geopolitical events in geographical proximity to the Union. There is a high risk that the surplus of weapons from ongoing conflict, such as the one in the Ukraine, will leak into illegal markets.  Key challenges that have been identified that further the facilitation of illicit firearms trafficking are the technological shifts creating the possibility of online dissemination of 3D-printing blueprints. The large gap in data and reliable, comprehensive statistics also make it more challenging for law enforcement and policymakers to assess the scale of this threat and identify possible solutions.  Firearms trafficking has been consistently identified as a major internal security threat to the EU. The necessity for harmonisation of criminal standards has been highlighted in both the 2025 ProtectEU internal security strategy and the new counter-terrorism agenda. However, there are significant differences in how firearms-related crimes are defined and punished across the member states. This lack of harmonisation hinders cross-border co-operation, complicates investigations and prosecutions, and reduces the overall effectiveness of law enforcement against firearms trafficking and its related offences.  I will provide more detail about the specific elements of the measure that is under discussion. The directive aims to protect EU citizens from the threat of illicit firearms by reducing the number of illegal weapons and related criminal activities, harmonising firearms offences and penalties and improving data quality and availability. The proposal targets intentional acts involving illicit firearms and does not propose to change existing EU rules on the legal acquisition, possession and cross-border movement of licit firearms. The proposal will harmonise the definitions and penalties of criminal offences to include the trafficking, manufacturing or possession of illicit firearms, the falsifying or illicitly removing or altering of mandatory firearm markings, and the illicit creation, acquisition, possession and dissemination of 3D printing of firearms.  Under this proposed directive, each member state will be obliged to establish a national firearms focal point to facilitate co-ordination and co-operation between the competent authorities. This directive will also strengthen data collection on seized firearms, which will enhance the capabilities of law enforcement officers and policymakers. It will allow for better resource allocation and it will enhance threat and policy evaluation.  Harmonised EU-level action will also support broader security goals, as firearms crimes are closely linked to terrorism, money laundering, drug trafficking and other types of organised crimes. As firearms trafficking continues to worsen, we are committed to combating this challenge through a co-ordinated and coherent approach. To do this, we must ensure our legislative measures are fit for purpose. In Ireland, we have robust legislation safeguarding the use of firearms through the Firearms Act 1925. However, this represents the first firearms trafficking measure at EU level. This legislation will remove the fragmentation that exists across the European Union to provide for harmonisation, thus enhancing cross-border co-operation, criminal investigations and prosecutions. The ultimate goal is to safeguard citizens and ensure that serious criminality is disrupted and punished.  The views of the Office of the Attorney General have been sought on this directive. The legal advice confirmed that there are no legal or constitutional obstacles to Ireland opting in to this directive.  Naturally, given the importance of this issue, officials from my Department will continue to participate actively in the negotiations at working party meetings and engage with other Departments and agencies to ensure the final text of the directive works well for Ireland and the EU as a whole. As part of Ireland's Presidency responsibilities, senior officials in my Department will be leading on the negotiation of the measure as it progresses in Brussels. By opting in to the measure, we will join our European colleagues to help fight this collective challenge.  The Government has no hesitation in commending this motion to the House. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Matt Carthy  I am sure the Government has no hesitation at all.  There is a serious issue in terms of how the Minister for justice is dealing with some incredibly important Bills that will have implications for years to come, and that is his inability to engage with the Houses of the Oireachtas regarding EU matters in a timely manner. I have lost count of the number of times that a Minister from the Department of justice has come in here with a proposal and said that time is of the essence and we have to adopt it within the following number of weeks. The question is: whose fault is that? It is certainly not the fault of Opposition Members who are told that there is an urgency. This is particularly the case with this proposal.  The briefing note circulated by the Department highlights the particular urgency and lists 23 June, less than a week from now, as the deadline. That is the timeframe the Houses have to consider it.  The Minister might consider me to be naive but I would have thought that the purpose of debates in this House was to scrutinise proposals, identify issues and suggest improvements or other beneficial courses of action, but the truth of the matter is that these motions have become a rubber-stamping exercise that have become the hallmark of how he approaches this. The least that the Houses of the Oireachtas deserve is an adequate timeline. I am told that for all the lack of notice we got in this House, the Seanad was give 24 hours' notice in respect of this motion.  The Minister of State referred to the deadline of 23 June. She stated this is because of the pressures of Article 3 of protocol 21 and it is important that we go back to the basis of where protocol 21 came from. It provided an opt-out for Ireland and Britain at the time in respect of matters concerning security, freedom and of that nature. There are two provisions in it. The first, Article 3, that the Minister of State cites, essentially allows the Government to opt in at an early stage of the deliberative process and within which comes a very tight deadline, but I am astounded that her contribution never mentioned Article 4 because Article 4 provides a different mechanism for Ireland to opt in, if that is the considered view of the Government and the Houses of the Oireachtas. That allows us to sign in at any stage after the enactment of the proposal.  Of course, the Government will cite that Article 3 brings us to the table, allows us to be part of the deliberations and the decision-making process but it also forces us to accept whatever decision is made, even if we oppose it and are in a minority in a qualified majority voting situation. Two questions arise from that. Do we have faith in the Ministers to defend and fight for the positions of the Oireachtas behind closed doors when they treat the Oireachtas with such contempt on an ongoing basis in relation to these motions? Do we trust the Minister at a time he is signing us up under protocol 21 to probably the greatest number of EU proposals ever? He has given up opt-outs where we have always had them and opted in and he is increasingly using Article 3 rather than Article 4, which was the primary mechanism used by previous Governments to sign up. This is all too familiar. We saw the furore in recent weeks when members of the public became aware in respect of the EU migration and asylum pact that we are locked in not only through this Government but future governments to an EU framework that takes no account of the unique circumstances and challenges that this particular island nation, divided as it is, faces.  In the Seanad earlier, the Minister misrepresented, or at least misunderstood, Sinn F\u00e9in's position because we have always acknowledged that there are areas where there is a need for EU collaboration. It is absolutely the case that combating firearms trafficking and other firearms-related offences could be one of them but that should be done on the basis of considered discussion in this House. That should have been done as a result of debates at the Oireachtas joint committee on justice in the first instance where we have thoughtful detailed conversations as to what precisely it means for Ireland to opt in, what provisions of sovereignty precisely are being handed over and what the value for this State is in handing over that sovereignty, then a considered debate in this House and then moving forward, but instead what happens is decisions are made behind closed doors to opt in.  I have the briefing note here. That is what has been provided to the Oireachtas by way of considered deliberation by the Department by way of briefing and then we are being asked at short notice to opt in under Article 3 and trust the Ministers to have our back as a state in EU negotiations.  It does not matter after that whether they do have our backs, because we are locked in anyway. This is not at all the way to do business.  There is a particular issue when it comes to firearms. When we are dealing with terrorism and serious firearms trafficking, I fully accept there is a need for, and merit in, operating on an EU basis. However, game clubs and hunting organisations, for example, have highlighted to us that when previous Governments signed us up under Article 4 to firearms legislation at EU level, there was no consideration for the impact on those types of local organisations and, subsequently, no real engagement on the part of the Department.  I will be voting against this motion. I do so on the basis of standing up for the rights of the Houses of the Oireachtas to have full and proper consideration of these matters, not to be subjected to a rubber-stamping exercise and not to be treated with what I consider to be absolute and utter disdain in terms of proper accountability. The Minister of State can say these are democratic decisions. Yes, this will be a democratic decision in that Members will vote on it, but nobody can argue in any way that there has been democratic consideration, accountability and discussion in respect of this motion. That absolutely has not happened. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Gary Gannon  The Social Democrats will support this motion because we want Ireland to opt in to the EU directive on combating firearms trafficking and other firearms-related offences. We do so because firearms trafficking, by its very nature, is a cross-border criminal activity. Organised criminal networks do not respect borders. The firearms used by criminal gangs across the country do not magically appear here. They are trafficked across jurisdictions, moved through criminal supply chains and exploited by organised crime groups operating across Europe. We accept that co-operation between member states is essential, as is information sharing between law enforcement agencies to enable them to work together effectively.  However, supporting the opt-in should not mean suspending scrutiny. We have major concerns about how the Department of justice, led by the Minister, Deputy Jim O'Callaghan, is continuously undermining democratic and parliamentary norms in this House. We will support the measure because we believe it is an important one but we do so while highlighting the failure of the Department once again to apply the required level of scrutiny. The EU's Regulatory Scrutiny Board has itself raised concerns about the level of analysis applied to this proposal, with a report noting that it was moving through the system without the level of detailed examination such a significant criminal justice measure deserves.  That concern is very well founded. When Ireland chooses to opt in to a justice and home affairs measure, it is not a routine administrative exercise. Rather, it is a significant policy decision that means accepting that European legislation will shape part of our criminal justice framework. That should always be done carefully, deliberately and on the basis of evidence, particularly at a time when security concerns across Europe are becoming increasingly more complex. We are living through a period of significant geopolitical instability. We have seen organised crime become more sophisticated, growing security concerns across the Continent, conflict on Europe's borders and increasing pressure on law enforcement agencies in many member states.  In that environment, it is entirely reasonable that the EU would seek to strengthen co-operation against firearms trafficking. It it equally reasonable for this House to ask questions. The central question I have for the Minister of State and the Government she represents is a simple one. What specific gaps in Irish law does this directive close? When we examine our existing legislation, we find that Ireland already has some of the strongest firearm laws in Europe. We already provide for severe penalties for unlawful possession of firearms and significant penalties where firearms are possessed in suspicious circumstances. We already provide for sentences up to and including life imprisonment for the most serious firearm offences.  If we are being asked to opt in to this measure, the Government should be able to clearly identify where the deficiencies lie but I did not hear that addressed in the Minister of State's contribution. Is the benefit primarily to do with information sharing, tracing firearms, intelligence co-operation or offences relating to the illicit manufacture of 3D-printed weapons, or is there a more substantive gap that has not yet been outlined to the House? Those questions are not arguments against the directive. They are arguments for proper scrutiny and they are questions that should have been debated at committee level.  The directive contains provisions on minimum and maximum penalties and a sentencing framework. If we are introducing new sentencing approaches, they should be justified by facts, evidence and a clear understanding of what actually reduces organised crime. Too often in politics, there is a temptation to assume that longer sentences automatically produce better outcomes. The evidence internationally is far more mixed. The objective must not simply be to increase penalties for the sake of it. The objective must be to reduce firearms trafficking, reduce gun violence and improve public safety.  What bothers me most about a discussion like this in the Chamber specifically about firearms offences is that we very rarely discuss one of the major issues occurring across Irish society right now, which is the pernicious nature of gang violence and all the tentacles that surround it. The Minister of State represents Dublin South-Central, which is a constituency very similar to mine. Surely she must see the level of child grooming into criminality that is happening. My eyes almost rolled back into my head a couple of months ago when the Minister talked about the fact we have not had a death by firearms as a consequence of gangland criminality in the past year. Yet, as I walk home via O'Connell Street and Dorset Street, the level of coercion of children into criminality I see there is something many of us have not seen in our lifetime. This directive does not counter that but nor have I seen anything from the Government that does so.  Drug-related intimidation is no longer happening only in inner-city communities. It is a nationwide problem. Rural and farm-based communities are experiencing it. The drug-related intimidation and violence engagement, DRIVE, programme is funded to the tune of some \u20ac240,000 each year. The level of drug-related intimidation far exceeds what that funding could possibly do. We have a multitude of disparate but better organised gangs emerging every single week in this country. Inevitably, somebody will say we need an initiative like the inner-city task force for Ballymun, Blanchardstown or Limerick, rather than accepting this is a national problem that requires manifold interventions.  I consistently hear that the Minister at the Department of justice is doing the best work in the country. When I look at the outcomes, I just do not see it. I will vote for this motion on the EU directive because co-operation matters. Scrutiny also matters, however, and it has not been applied in this instance. I genuinely do not believe the Department of justice is taking any degree of interest in the people who hold the firearms and the people who are coercing children and young people in this country into carrying out the type of intimidation of which we have been seeing the evidence since 2001. There have been 2,600 incidences of drug-related intimidation in the past two years and arson attacks have increased manyfold. We are not getting to grips with a problem that used to be under the radar but about which we now simply do not talk. This directive lacks proper parliamentary oversight. The problems it is trying to solve will not be addressed unless the Government actually takes the issues seriously. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Carrigy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Miche\u00e1l Carrigy)  The next slot is for the Independent and Parties Technical Group but there are no Members from that group present. Therefore, we will move on to the Independent Technical Group, with Deputy Gogarty up first. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Nicholas Gogarty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Nicholas Gogarty  Like previous speakers, I do not like the short notice given for this debate but I otherwise broadly welcome the Government motion on Ireland opting in to the proposed EU directive on combating firearms trafficking under Protocol 21. It makes sense because it aligns us with newer EU-wide rules on tracing, information and data sharing and penalties. The directive is focused on tackling the illegal movement of firearms, which is an activity that crosses all sorts of national borders in different jurisdictions with different rules. The criminal networks exploit those differences between legal systems across Europe. By joining this measure, Ireland strengthens its ability to work with other member states. It will improve information sharing and, we hope, will strengthen penalties.  Some people have concerns about the directive. In terms of the sovereignty argument, there is always an element of trade-off. There is an aspect of swings and roundabouts.  Other people fear that it might affect people who use firearms responsibly for sport or farming. We should discuss it more because the short period is not desirable. In general, I think this is essential legislation and I will be supporting it because it strengthens An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na's work. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Lawless  We have a big problem with gun crime in this country. It is important that we work collectively with other countries to stop that. Crime is causing enormous stress for rural communities, in towns and villages right across the country. It is important that we have a serious conversation about what happens to people when they are released from prison. Over the past five years, more than 3,500 persons have been released from prison with no fixed abode. Many go straight into emergency accommodation, with no plan, no supports and no oversight. What is effectively happening in rural communities is that some local authorities are sending individuals into Mayo, in places like Knock, Balla and Crossmolina, and placing them into the hands of private landlords without any professional support structures, risk assessment or rehabilitation pathways whatsoever. In this model, the only beneficiary is the landlord itself.  I have been reliably informed that Roscommon County Council is sending persons released from prison to landlords in Mayo. Worryingly, one of these landlords has plans to expand his enterprise into Claremorris, into a location beside schools. Mayo should not be used as a dumping ground in relation to this. I have spoken to professionals, addiction counsellors, psychologists and many other specialists, and they have all agreed that you cannot place recently released offenders into privately run, profit-led facilities without any oversight. When you take a man who may have burgled a house and place him alongside a man who may have burgled a car, that is not a rehabilitation centre. You are effectively creating a school of crime. When one person can learn from another, it is the reverse of Batman and Robin. This is happening in Knock, Balla and Crossmolina. It is causing devastating consequences for the individuals, where no rehabilitation is happening, for the community, who have to live with the effects of this, and for the garda\u00ed, who are massively stretched and yet have to deal with such difficult circumstances as well.  There is a better way. If you look at how Galway County Council operates its model, people who are released from prison go to a professionally run service with counselling and risk assessment protocols. It is effectively operating a step-down facility and COPE charity is managing that for the council. It protects individuals, promotes rehabilitation, protects communities, and, crucially, it protects the garda\u00ed too. Instead of funnelling public money into the hands and pockets of landlords, we should be investing properly in rehabilitation and step-down facilities. The model is there and I call on the Minister of State to end this failed experiment. It is causing devastating consequences in Mayo in particular. I want the Minister of State to put proper structures in place. No one should be released from prison with no fixed abode and effectively shoved into a large accommodation centre with other people who have recently been released from prison. It is a dynamite combination and it must be ended. I call on the Minister of State to look into this issue in Mayo, Knock, Balla and Crossmolina. I ask her to come back to me on it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Collins  I raise a matter that has caused huge concern among farmers, hunters and licensed firearms owners right across rural Ireland. This is about the proposed EU restrictions on lead ammunition and, more important, the complete lack of information and engagement by this Government. This issue did not appear yesterday. Concerns about these proposals have been voiced over the past number of years. Representative organisations have been looking for meetings and meaningful engagement with the Minister of State, Deputy Alan Dillon, and officials in his Department, and they have got virtually nothing back. In many cases, they have got nothing at all. That is simply not acceptable. The people affected by this are farmers protecting livestock, people carrying out vermin control, hunters, sporting shooters, and ordinary licence-holders who obey the law and pay their taxes like everyone else. Many of them who live in rural Ireland feel they are being ignored, and I can see why. There has been no meaningful consultation, no proper stakeholder engagement, no effort to bring people around the table and no effort to explain what Ireland's position actually is. That is just shocking. The Government talks endlessly about stakeholders' engagement and consultation, but when it comes to rural stakeholder groups, too often they seem to be the last people anyone wants to listen to. That is exactly the impression being created here.  The REACH vote is due on Thursday week, yet here we are, days away from a hugely important decision, and stakeholders still do not know which way Ireland intends to vote. How is this acceptable to this Government? There are over 150,000 licensed firearms owners in this country. Many have serious concerns about the practical consequences of these proposals. There are concerns about availability, the suitability of existing firearms, safety, cost and supply. What is Ireland's position? Will we vote against or in favour of this proposal? The Health and Safety Authority under the Department of enterprise will cast a vote. Which way do we plan to vote? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Carol Nolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Carol Nolan  I begin by briefly addressing the motion concerning Ireland's opt-in to the proposed EU directive on combating firearms trafficking and other firearms-related offences. I have no difficulty with supporting proportionate, targeted measures that genuinely strengthen our capacity to tackle the illegal trafficking of weapons, particularly those entering the EU from conflict zones or through organised criminal networks. I do want to be absolutely clear, however, that this directive is about criminal law harmonisation and not about the lawful, responsible and highly regulated community of licensed firearms holders in this State. It is certainly not about ammunition standards or hunting practices. However, it is precisely because this directive is not about those issues that I must take this opportunity to highlight a real and growing concern among rural communities, sports shooters and hunting organisations, concerns that I have raised repeatedly through parliamentary questions.  Only last year, I submitted a series of parliamentary questions to the Ministers for agriculture and for the environment, seeking clarity on the European Chemicals Agency's proposals under REACH to further restrict or effectively phase out the use of lead ammunition, including for shotguns used in hunting and pest control. I specifically asked the Minister at that time to outline the Government's engagement with the National Association of Regional Game Councils, NARGC, with local gun clubs and with the tens of thousands of responsible firearm holders who will be directly affected. The replies, unfortunately, were very vague, non-committal and in some cases outright dismissive of the scale of the impact. Now we see NARGC again calling for clarity and sounding the alarm. This time, it is warning that the proposed EU restrictions could have serious, disproportionate and unnecessary consequences for rural gun owners, clay pigeon clubs, wildlife management and farmers who rely on shotguns as a practical tool. NARGC is absolutely right to highlight that many of the alternatives to lead shot are more expensive, less effective and in some cases unsafe in older firearms that were never designed for high-pressure steel loads. I have raised this repeatedly and we are not seeing any action on it or engagement with the game council. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mattie McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mattie McGrath  I wish the Minister of State well in her new role. I am concerned about these opt-ins. We are opting in very often without any proper legal scrutiny or impact analysis. None of us can say there is not a huge problem with gun crime. The availability of and activity involving guns is outrageous. We can have all the opt-ins and European agreements we like, but we do not have the Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na on the ground to deal with it. I commend the ABGN Gun Club in four parishes in my area, and also the many gun clubs around the country that do excellent work in nurturing species that are in in danger, habitats and everything else.  They have huge concerns here. There was absolutely no consultation with the national organisation or those clubs. They are concerned as are the farmers who, for instance, cannot farm potatoes, which are coming up now, because of crows. They have to have a shotgun. They can have these bangers and everything else. They also need them for deer hunting and for shooting vermin. These people are not being consulted and the worry is that this is the thin end of the wedge. If we opt in to this, we do not know what it is and where it might end up when it comes down on top of us.  I also have huge issues with the Prison Service at the moment. Our prisons have double the number of prisoners that they can hold and they are releasing prisoners on a regular basis to unscrupulous landlords, some of whom have IPAS centres. I attended a briefing in the audiovisual room this morning. The money that is being paid to some greedy developers here is shocking. They have friends in high places and involves literally billions in money overall. As Deputy Paul Lawless said, it is just shocking. They are putting in one, two and three different criminals who have been released here without any rehabilitation. It is only a cocktail for more crime, more gun crime and all kinds of heinous crimes.  We can come in here and rush through legislation to opt in to this, that and the other with the EU. We are forgetting about the ordinary people who look after our country, our land, our heritage and, of course, our habitats. Yet we do not know the impact of what we are passing will have on them and on those in the farming community who are trying to survive, eke out a living, protect their crops and above all, protect their people. This is wide open for abuse from the EU afterwards. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Danny Healy-Rae  I, too, wish the Minister of State, Deputy Ardagh, the very best in her new position.  I am concerned. Every one of us would support the objective of protecting people from the threat that guns or illicit firearms pose to people\u2019s lives. To reach this general objective, it is important to reduce the number of illicit firearms and the activity of the illegal firearms market in the EU, to reduce the discrepancies between EU member states, to harmonise firearms-related offences and penalties across member states, and to enhance the overall picture of the threat posed by firearms by improving the availability and quality of data.  However, I am very concerned about the ordinary people in Ireland who hold firearms, whether rifles, shotguns or whatever, for the protection of their farms and to keep wildlife a reasonable distance away. All parts of Kerry are completely overrun by deer. If we were to hurt those who are trying to keep the numbers down - we really appreciate the great work they are doing - it would be very wrong. I believe we have not had enough debate on this motion and I am very concerned about it.  We all know the great work the gun clubs do and they are completely above board. I am also worried about the change relating to lead bullets and that this would in some way speed up getting rid of the lead cartridges we have had for years and years. I am very concerned about how little debate we are having on it this evening. As I said at the start, we are all worried about drug lords, the use of guns and the deaths especially here in the capital and also in other parts of the country. I am very concerned that we might in some way hurt the users of legally held guns in the countryside for the protection of farms and their livelihoods. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Carrigy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Miche\u00e1l Carrigy)  I also congratulate the Minister of State, Deputy Ardagh, and I wish her well in her new role. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Ardagh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration (Deputy Catherine Ardagh)  I thank the House for facilitating this motion today. I thank colleagues from across the House for their contributions. I would like to address some specific questions raised. Deputies Nolan, Michael Collins, Danny Healy-Rae and Carthy raised the issue of the legal acquisition and use of firearms particularly in rural areas. Their points were well made in relation to the use of hunting rifles and rifles used to protect property from animals. However, this proposal will not redefine the rules on legal ownership of firearms. The proposal only targets intentional acts involving illicit firearms, fully preserving legitimate activities by authorised dealers, industry and citizens. It does not change or affect in any way the existing EU rules on the legal acquisition, possession and cross-border movement of hunting rifles and those types of firearms.  Many Deputies expressed dismay over the timelines. I assure the House that this measure was laid before the Oireachtas one month after its publication. There is some urgency in relation to it given that we have so much legislation going through the Houses and I ask them to bear with us. I note all the positive support for the proposal today.  At the outset, Deputy Carthy spoke about the difference between Article 3 and Article 4 in respect of the opt-in. Under Protocol 21 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, Ireland has two avenues in relation to opting into EU proposals. Under Article 3, Ireland can notify the EU institutions within three months of a proposal being published that it wishes to participate from the outset. This gives Ireland a seat at the negotiation table during the Council working groups and ministerial discussions, allowing it to influence the final wording and operation of the legislation.  Under Article 4, Ireland can wait until after the EU measure has been adopted and then decide whether to opt in to the final instrument. However, at that stage Ireland has no role in shaping the legislation and must effectively accept the measure as negotiated by other member states. An opt-in under Article 3 of Protocol 21 therefore ensures that Ireland is at the table and involved in the discussions and negotiations with other European partners. It is stated Government policy that Ireland participate in the justice and home affairs measures by default, opting out only where concrete and well-defined legal impediments can be identified. This issue was also mentioned by Deputy Gary Gannon.  Deputies Gannon and Carthy also asked why we are now deciding to opt in. The Government is supportive of the proposal and views it as a valuable instrument in combating serious and organised crime, particularly in terms of the increased sophistication and technological advancement in the modus operandi used to commit such crimes. It should be noted that it is the Government's stated policy that Ireland participate in justice and home affairs measures by default, opting out only where concrete and well-defined national interests are at stake. In policy and procedural terms, it is considered desirable that Ireland opt in to this measure pursuant to Article 3.  In light of legal advice received from the Attorney General on 27 May that this measure provides no legal or constitutional impediments to Ireland\u2019s participation, Ireland should opt in to this proposal. Opting in now will allow Ireland to stay in step with other European partners and strengthen our efforts to fight trafficking of illicit firearms. As part of Ireland\u2019s Presidency responsibilities, senior officials in my Department will lead the negotiation of the measure as it progresses through the House.  Deputy Gannon also raised the status of the negotiations. Negotiations are currently under way and have been ongoing since the first working party meeting took place in March 2026. As part of Ireland\u2019s Presidency responsibilities, senior officials in my Department will be leading on the negotiation of the measure as it progresses in Brussels. It is anticipated a general approach will be reached during the Irish Presidency. Opting in now will ensure the likelihood that Ireland can take a role in these negotiations, which will be really important so as to ensure the final measure be transposed in a manner compatible with Ireland\u2019s common law legal system.  Another huge issue that is very important to me as a representative for Dublin South-Central relates to drug-related intimidation. The Department of justice on the DRIVE oversight board is hugely supportive of this programme to tackle drug-related intimidation at community level. I have delegated responsibility for youth diversion. I look forward to working with Deputy Gannon and other Members of the House in relation to early intervention to ensure that young people do not end up in the justice system and are diverted before it becomes more serious and before they are recruited by criminal gangs.  I thank the Deputies for contributing today. The EU strategy to tackle organised crime and the renewed impact framework are alike in recognising firearms trafficking as a priority. The Government has no hesitation in commending to the House the motion that we opt in to this proposal. By doing so now under the Article 3 opt-in, it will ensure we are at the table with our European partners and can be involved in the detailed discussions. For all of these reasons, I commend the motion to the House. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"EU Directive on Combating Firearms Trafficking: Motion"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_64","debateType":"motion","bill":null,"showAs":"Estimates for Public Services 2026: Motion","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_64","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation (Deputy Jack Chambers)  I move the following Further Revised Estimate:   Vote 26 \u2014 Education and Youth (Further Revised Estimate)   That a sum not exceeding \u20ac13,642,152,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 2026, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Education and Youth, for certain services administered by that Office, and for the payments of certain grants. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Vote put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Estimates for Public Services 2026: Motion"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_65","debateType":"motion","bill":null,"showAs":"Remediation of Dwellings Damaged by the Use of Defective Concrete Blocks Act 2022 Order: Motion","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_65","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage (Deputy James Browne)  I move:  That D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann approves the following Order in draft:  Remediation of Dwellings Damaged by the Use of Defective Concrete Blocks Act 2022 (Designation of Meath County Council) (Parts of Administrative Area) Order 2026,  a copy of which has been laid in draft form before D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann on 2nd April, 2026. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Remediation of Dwellings Damaged by the Use of Defective Concrete Blocks Act 2022 Order: Motion"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_66","debateType":"motion","bill":null,"showAs":"Remediation of Dwellings Damaged by the Use of Defective Concrete Blocks Act 2022 Order: Motion","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_66","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage (Deputy James Browne)  I move:  That D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann approves the following Order in draft:  Remediation of Dwellings Damaged by the Use of Defective Concrete Blocks Act 2022 (Designation of Carlow County Council) Order 2026,  a copy of which has been laid in draft form before D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann on 15th May, 2026. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Remediation of Dwellings Damaged by the Use of Defective Concrete Blocks Act 2022 Order: Motion"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_67","debateType":"debate","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/47","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/47\/dail\/2","houseCode":"dail","stage":"2","isBillStage":true,"showAs":"Health (Abolition of Three Day Wait Rule) (Amendment) Bill 2026: Second Stage (Resumed) [Private Members] (D\u00e1il)"}},"showAs":"Health (Abolition of Three Day Wait Rule) (Amendment) Bill 2026: Second Stage (Resumed) [Private Members]","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_67","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  I must now deal with a deferred division relating to the Second Reading motion on the Health (Abolition of Three Day Wait Rule) (Amendment) Bill 2026. On Tuesday, 16 June 2026, on the question, \"That the Bill be now read a Second Time\", a division was claimed and that division must be taken now. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Health (Abolition of Three Day Wait Rule) (Amendment) Bill 2026: Second Stage (Resumed) [Private Members]"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_72","debateType":"motion","bill":null,"showAs":"Data Centres, Energy Use and Climate Change: Motion (Resumed) [Private Members]","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_72","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The following motion was moved by Deputy Ciaran Ahern on Wednesday,17 June 2026:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"That D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"notes that:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 climate change resulted in Irish temperatures in excess of 30\u00b0C in May, breaking a 29-year-old record by more than two degrees;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 a United Nations report has described Ireland as a cautionary tale on the environmental impact of data centres;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the Government is implementing policies that will increase fossil fuel use, by facilitating further new data centres through the Commission for Regulation of Utilities (CRU) Large Energy User (LEU) connection policy, the introduction of private wires legislation, and the construction of a floating terminal for the importation and storage of liquid natural gas, including fracked gas;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 over 22 per cent of our electricity is already used by data centres, this will rise to over 30 per cent by 2030, and to 55 per cent if growth continues as projected, using more power than every other electricity user in the country combined;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 in May, the Climate Change Advisory Council noted that all new renewable energy being developed in the State is being cannibalised by new demand created by data centres, rather than going towards decarbonising homes, transport or industry;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 research projects that the 5.8 gigawatt (GW) of additional data centre capacity under the LEU may result in a doubling of the State's peak demand for electricity generation, and lead to an increase in gas consumption by 2030 against the current projected decline, should capacity be constructed ahead of new renewables capacity; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 no offshore wind power generation capacity will be available before 2030 despite a 5 GW target;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"further notes that:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 Ireland has the highest electricity prices in the European Union, and over 500,000 households are in arrears on their energy bills;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the increased and inflexible energy demands of data centres means that more and more often gas generation sets the wholesale price of electricity, rather than renewables, resulting in higher prices for households, while Eurostat shows that large energy users pay lower network charges;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 research by Friends of the Earth Ireland, shows that Irish households paid an estimated \u20ac715 million more in electricity bills from 2015 to 2023 due to data centres, equivalent to \u20ac360 per household, and face an additional \u20ac1.43 billion in costs up to 2034, costing each household up to \u20ac644 more; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the Economic and Social Research Institute has shown that recent energy price increases hit low-income households harder, and that more targeted support measures are needed;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"regrets that:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the Climate Action Plan 2026 still has not been published;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the final, phase 2 oversight group report of the Land Use Review, was submitted over a year ago and has still not been published; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 planned legislation to prioritise critical infrastructure will bypass statutory climate obligations;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"recognises that:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 data centres are essential infrastructure for the modern digital economy and the development of artificial intelligence technology but are overly concentrated in Ireland, are using an ever-increasing amount of energy, resulting in higher costs for households and businesses, and increased development is now at odds with our climate targets;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 discussion by Government of nuclear power is a nonsense and a form of climate obstructionism which distracts and blocks real climate action; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the Government will further increase carbon emissions by lifting the Dublin Airport cap, promoting unsustainable housing and economic development, and by no longer prioritising public transport and active travel investment over roads construction;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"condemns the decision of the Government to use the Critical Infrastructure Bill 2026, to disapply Section 15 of the Climate Action and Low Carbon Development Acts 2015 to 2021 from designated projects; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"calls on the Government to:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 publish the Climate Action Plan 2026, and the final phase 2 oversight group report of the Land Use Review without any further delay;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 delete Section 7 of the Critical Infrastructure Bill 2026, and publish the legal advice confirming the constitutionality of the provision to disapply Section 15 of the Climate Action and Low Carbon Development Acts 2015 to 2021;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 suspend the CRU LEU connection policy, and commission an independent study of the impact of data centres on electricity prices, carbon emissions, water usage and grid stability;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 introduce a moratorium on the further construction of data centres until renewable energy from offshore wind comes online, and households and businesses can benefit from lower energy costs;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 introduce a levy on the energy usage of data centres, to recover the higher electricity costs now being imposed on Irish households and businesses;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 confirm by how much Ireland will miss our binding 2030 emission targets, what the cost of securing additional carbon credits will be, and how the next Government will pay for those; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 immediately reintroduce targeted energy credits and more targeted Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland supports for households in advance of Budget 2027."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"To delete all words after \"D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann\" and substitute the following:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\"notes that in relation to Climate Action:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 last month, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) launched its latest Ireland's Greenhouse Gas Emissions Projections 2025-2030, which show that we are moving in the right direction and improving our performance compared with the previous year;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 for the first time, the EPA now projects that we are close to meeting our first carbon budget, following a consistent trend of improving projections for that budget over recent years;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the EPA is projecting a decrease in emissions of between 13 per cent and 25 per cent by 2030 (from 2018 base);"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 emissions are reducing across many sectors while our population is growing, and our economy is growing;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 we now have the lowest level of greenhouse gas emissions in 35 years, and we have decoupled growth from emissions;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 Ireland is at the forefront of transitioning to an electricity system dominated by variable renewable energy sources, such as wind and solar, and indeed renewable sources generated almost half of Ireland's electricity in February, March and April of this year;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 significant investment has taken place in increasing the technical flexibility of Ireland's power system to enhance its renewable integration capabilities \u2013 through storage and other technologies;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the electricity system in Ireland can operate with up to 75 per cent wind and solar at any given moment; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 there are now 241,000 electric and hybrid vehicles on Irish roads;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"in relation to, energy affordability:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the Government is deeply aware of the pressures placed on households and businesses by high energy costs, and has taken a number of steps to support households and business;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the National Energy Affordability Taskforce (NEAT) was established in June 2025 to identify, assess and implement measures that will enhance energy affordability for households and businesses while delivering key renewables commitments and protecting security of supply and economic stability;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 in recent months the Government introduced a \u20ac750 million package of fuel supports, which is among the largest per capita of any European Union state, while Budget 2026 had a range of other measures;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the Value-Added Tax (VAT) rate on electricity bills has been reduced to 9 per cent VAT until 2030;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 enhanced social protection payments have been introduced, including an increase to the fuel allowance rate and an expansion of the eligibility rules, which applies to about a quarter of Irish households; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the NEAT continues to work intensively on an energy affordability action plan to be submitted to the Government in quarter 3 of this year;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"in relation to, infrastructure delivery:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 a record allocation of \u20ac640 million in Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland (SEAI) retrofitting schemes;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 since 2019, we have invested over \u20ac1.8 billion in retrofitting, and we have been able to provide energy upgrades for 268,000 homes;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 in the first quarter of 2026, over 12,000 homes have been upgraded through SEAI schemes, including over 1,500 homes at risk of energy poverty under the Warmer Homes Scheme;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 since the formation of this Government, over 70,000 homes have been upgraded, including over 9,000 homes at risk of energy poverty under the Warmer Homes Scheme;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 Ireland currently has over 8 GW of renewable generation capacity, and onshore wind is the largest contributor to this, with over 5 GW of wind generation capacity and 2.5 GW of Solar Photovoltaics installed, with hydro, biomass, and other small sources contributing the remainder;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 Government approval was received in July 2025 for \u20ac3.5 billion investment in EirGrid and ESB to facilitate the investment programme of up to \u20ac18.9 billion out to 2030, and connection of 5 GW offshore wind; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the Critical Infrastructure Bill 2026, is a timely and important piece of legislation and will make a significant contribution to the prompt delivery of nationally important infrastructure, whilst maintaining robust regulatory, environmental and planning safeguards;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"in relation to:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 data centres are a very important part of Ireland's economic and digital present and future, and a key part of our value proposition for foreign direct investment;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the recent KPMG study on data centres, undertaken on behalf of the Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment, reports there are 19,500 directly employed in the industry;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 Ireland's industrial electricity demand is primarily concentrated in our digital economy, this is our core energy intensive industry;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the Commission for the Regulation of Utilities (CRU) Data Centre Connection policy published in 2025, clearly set out what is required for a new data centre connection, including the requirement to get 80 per cent of its energy through new renewable sources; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the CRU decision simply refers to market research data on 5.8 GW of prospective interest in data centre growth, rather than linked to any contractual demand in place at present; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"further recognises that:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the Government is committed to taking further action to deliver on the twin objective of decarbonisation and digitalisation in a sustainable and affordable manner;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the Government is committed to delivering on Ireland's responsibility to address the climate crisis, and work remains ongoing right across Government to implement climate mitigation measures every single day of the week;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the priority is driving implementation, particularly on high-impact measures with multiple societal and economic benefits;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the Climate Action Plan will be more focused on the most impactful measures and will report on the ones that make the biggest difference;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the NEAT continues to work intensively on an energy affordability action plan to be submitted to the Government in quarter 3 of this year; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the Government's Large Energy User Action Plan, published in January 2026 sets out a 'plan-led' approach for very large and energy intensive investments, which due to scale and energy consumption will benefit from coordinated national infrastructure planning.\"."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"- (Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration, Deputy Catherine Ardagh)"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  I must now deal with a deferred division relating to the ministerial amendment to the motion on data centres, energy use and climate change. Yesterday, on the question that the amendment be made, a division was claimed and the division must be taken now. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an D\u00e1il ar athl\u00f3 ar 9.45 p.m. go dt\u00ed 8.47 a.m., D\u00e9ardaoin, an 18 Meitheamh 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The D\u00e1il adjourned at 9.45 p.m. until 8.47 a.m. on Thursday, 18 June 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Data Centres, Energy Use and Climate Change: Motion (Resumed) [Private Members]"}]}}]},"contextDate":"2026-06-17"},{"debateRecord":{"house":{"showAs":"27th Seanad","committeeCode":"","houseCode":"seanad","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/house\/seanad\/27","chamberType":"house","houseNo":"27"},"chamber":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/def\/house\/seanad","showAs":"Seanad \u00c9ireann"},"lastUpdated":"2026-06-22T10:59:56+00:00","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-17\/debate\/main","formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-17\/debate\/mul@\/main.xml"},"pdf":null},"date":"2026-06-17","counts":{"contributorCount":54,"divisionCount":3,"debateSectionCount":13,"questionCount":0,"billCount":2},"debateType":"debate","debateSections":[{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_2","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Gn\u00f3 an tSeanaid - Business of Seanad","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I have received notice from the following Senators that they propose to raise the following matters on the commencement of Seanad \u00c9ireann today:  Senator Nessa Cosgrove - The need for the Minister for Health to make a statement on the inclusion of osteoarthritis in the chronic disease management programme.  Senator Mike Kennelly - The need for the Minister for Transport to make a statement on driving test waiting lists in County Kerry and, in particular, the establishment of a driving test centre in Listowel to reduce waiting times.  Senator Gareth Scahill - The need for the Minister for Rural and Community Development and the Gaeltacht to make a statement on the reintroduction of the community support fund.  Senator Tom Clonan - The need for the Minister for Education and Youth to make a statement on the criteria for enrolment in special classes for children with developmental language disorder or speech sound disorder as set out in Circular 24\/2025.  Senator Chris Andrews - The need for the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine to make a statement on capping the number of breeding females permitted within a dog-breeding establishment.  Senator Maria McCormack - The need for the Minister for Education and Youth to make a statement on funding for science, technology, engineering and mathematics, STEM, engagement officers in Laois and the midlands.  Senator Joanne Collins - The need for the Minister for Children, Disability and Equality to make a statement on core funding for the childcare sector and the recent reduction in childcare rates.  The matters raised by the Senators are suitable for discussion. I have selected Senators Nessa Cosgrove, Gareth Scahill, Mike Kennelly and Tom Clonan and they will be taken now. The other Senators may give notice on another day of the matters that they wish to raise. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Gn\u00f3 an tSeanaid - Business of Seanad"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_3","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":false,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_4","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Healthcare Policy","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":4},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_4","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Victor Boyhan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, to the House. The first Commencement matter is from Senator Cosgrove. T\u00e1 ceithre n\u00f3im\u00e9ad aici. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Nessa Cosgrove  Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an gCathaoirleach agus cuirim f\u00e1ilte roimh an Aire St\u00e1it. I will raise this today because it is very personal to myself. I have osteoarthritis in both my knees. It has been gradually getting worse.  I will give some figures about it. More than 577,800 people are living in Ireland with chronic joint pain and restricted movement as a result of osteoarthritis. People living with osteoarthritis experience a much poorer quality of life than those without. I have unfortunately learned this. I was late even coming over here and I was struggling to run. Irish people living with osteoarthritis are four times more likely to have three or more chronic conditions along with their arthritis. Due to the ageing population, we expect to see this number growing by between 20% and 30% by 2050. In my case, it is hereditary. Both my parents had osteoarthritis and I can see, first hand, how it reduces your ability to move. That is the whole point I am making today.  Historically, the medical response to osteoarthritis has been to rely on surgical interventions such as knee and hip replacements. Apart from the trauma that any surgery inflicts on patients, it is an expensive practice, costing the health service around \u20ac112 million per year. Recently, it was great to attend a policy briefing in the audiovisual room that outlined an alternative response to osteoarthritis and the benefits of moving to supervised group education and exercise as a first-line treatment for people experiencing knee and hip osteoarthritis. For example, in my case, when I was diagnosed as having it, I had to get an MRI to say I have osteoarthritis and there was no treatment plan besides just waiting for it to get worse. I have a wonderful GP but there was no referral to physio. There was no emphasis on alternative methods. It was basically, \"You know what? You are going to have to wait until it gets worse and then you will get a knee replacement\", or else look at injections.  It was wonderful to go to this programme, which is called the Good Life with osteoArthritis Denmark, GLA:D, programme. It was brought to Ireland with the help of grant aid from the Health Research Board. It is through the University of Limerick that the programme is administered in the Irish health system. The GLA:D programme has been embraced by professionals, with over 265 GLA:D-certified physiotherapists delivering twice weekly, eight-week programmes across 45 healthcare settings. It is being delivered in 16 counties in Ireland and over 1,000 patients have benefited from the approach, which treats the condition in a similar way to other chronic conditions, using education and lifestyle choices, such as exercise, to alleviate the symptoms and the impact of the condition. As I said, surgery should be the last resort and it should be avoided at all costs. Research, particularly in Denmark, states that several countries have shown that the implementation of a group education and exercise programme has resulted in a delaying or even total avoidance of surgery among some sufferers.  Osteoarthritis is as much a chronic condition as type 2 diabetes, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, COPD, asthma and cardiovascular illnesses such as heart disease. Each of these conditions is recognised under the chronic disease management programme, CDMP, and are treated, where possible, in the first instance through education and lifestyle and then with medication. The CDMP - I know the Minister of State knows this - entails six-month medical reviews, including consultation with a practice nurse, blood tests and follow-up GP visits. It would be enormously beneficial to those living with osteoarthritis to benefit from being included as part of the CDMP and that we would have a national strategy where, as soon as you get diagnosed or identify that you have osteoarthritis, a full treatment plan is put in place concentrating on lifestyle, education and physiotherapy, which is done in primary care settings.  Will the Minister of State look at including osteoarthritis in the CDMP with an update on treatment, and look at alternatives for the treatment of osteoarthritis? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Mary Butler)  I thank Senator Cosgrove for raising this matter, which I am taking on behalf of my colleague, the Minister for Health, Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill.  It is something I am very familiar with because my husband has the exact same diagnosis. It is amazing how lived and living experience can come into a lot of the stuff we deal with every day. To look at the Senator, we would never in a million years think she is dealing with a condition that can be very debilitating at times, when the knees start rubbing off each other.  As provided for under the 2019 GMS GP agreement, the GP-led chronic disease management, CDM, programme was rolled out to adult medical card and GP visit card holders on a phased basis from 2020. The specified chronic conditions included in the programme under the 2019 agreement were type 2 diabetes, asthma, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and cardiovascular disease. The 2023 GMS GP agreement then expanded the CDM programme to include adult GMS patients with hypertension and all women diagnosed with gestational diabetes or pre-eclampsia.  Under the CDM treatment programme, eligible patients are supported in managing their chronic conditions. Each patient receives two scheduled reviews a year with the GP, each preceded by a practice nurse visit. These reviews include patient education, preventative care, medication review, physical examinations, scheduled investigations and individual care planning. Furthermore, patients with an undiagnosed chronic disease or those who are at high risk of developing a chronic disease are identified on an opportunistic basis, for example, when a patient attends the GP for another issue. This is the issue raised by the Senator. Those who are not diagnosed but are at a high risk of cardiovascular disease or diabetes are entered into a preventive programme. The programme has shown very high uptake, with almost all eligible GPs having signed up to provide the CDM programme and provide improved patient care. An Irish College of General Practitioners audit of CDM patient records showed a notable reduction in emergency department attendance and inpatient admissions, as well as a reduction in use of GP out-of-hours services, while the third HSE report on the treatment programme showed patient improvements in biometric and lifestyle risk factors, including blood pressure, vaccine status, smoking and vaping habits, and weight and BMI.  It is understood that approximately 500,000 people in Ireland live with osteoarthritis. The causation of the condition is complex, and treatment can also be quite complex for patients. Self-management, including maintaining an optimum weight and being physically active, is now viewed as critical in managing the condition. I will take on board what the Senator has said about the GLA:D programme and alternative response group education, and also the national strategy with regard to treatment plans and lifestyle education. Some people are very good at doing that themselves, but others will need support. Self-management support and advice on exercise and muscle strengthening is available through the HSE.  Consideration can be given to future expansions of the CDM programme to include additional conditions. However, this would require rigorous clinical assessment to determine whether the condition concerned is suitable for inclusion in the treatment programme, including whether it would be of added benefit to eligible patients who already receive GP care under the GMS scheme. The inclusion of additional conditions would also require engagement with the relevant stakeholders, including the GPs delivering the service. Any service expansion must also be considered in the context of GP capacity to deliver the service. It should be noted that an expansion of the CDM programme is already planned for this year to include further conditions under the various CDM programmes, including chronic kidney disease at stages 4 and 5 under the treatment programme. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Nessa Cosgrove  I thank the Minister of State. Given her husband's condition, she knows about this issue. It is a condition that gets worse as it goes on. Times have definitely changed with regard to treatment, and it is now done through education. Both my mother and father have had knees and hips replaced. However, my mother would have been told not to do any exercise, whereas we are at least told that much now. What is interesting with the GLA:D programme is that because it is a group exercise and it is done in primary care centres by physiotherapists, all it needs is additional funding for it to be rolled out in counties that are willing to have it. My GP is in a fabulous primary care service. It needs additional money so that physiotherapists are not only trained in this programme, but have the capacity to deliver it on a group basis. It is easier to do work like that in a group setting because it requires an holistic approach.  As I said, knee operations in both public and private care push up the cost of medicine. It has been proven in countries like Denmark that early intervention is preferable, and surgery should be a last resort. Unfortunately, in Ireland, we are still told that it is inevitable that people are going to have to get their knees replaced. I thank the Minister of State for listening. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mary Butler  I welcome Deputy Conor D. McGuinness and his guests from Waterford to the Visitors Gallery of the Seanad.  Senator Cosgrove makes a valid point. When we talk about expanding the chronic disease management programme, there are many issues that have to be addressed. We understand why including chronic diseases like kidney disease at stages 4 and 5 would take precedence over some other conditions. I give the Senator a commitment that I will talk to the Minister\u2019s officials about the GLA:D programme. The Senator is right that we have learned a lot about how to deal with individual conditions. A lot of walks are now taken in the Portlaw Woods on the softer ground as opposed to the hard ground of the roads. We have learned a lot about that. I thank the Senator for raising this issue. There are 500,000 people in Ireland with a diagnosis of osteoarthritis, so it merits discussion. I will take that back. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Victor Boyhan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Victor Boyhan)  I also welcome Deputy Conor D. McGuinness and his visitors to the Seanad. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Healthcare Policy"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_5","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Departmental Funding","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_5","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gareth Scahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Victor Boyhan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gareth Scahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Gareth Scahill  I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Butler. I know this is not her brief, but I thank her for attending.  I welcome the opportunity to raise this important issue. I call on the Minister for Rural and Community Development and the Gaeltacht to make a statement on the community support fund and similar issues. My message today is very simple. While capital funding for community projects is welcome and important, many community groups are struggling most with their day-to-day running costs, and they need support now more than ever. As someone who has been involved with numerous groups and is regularly engaging with community groups, committees and volunteers across towns, villages and parishes, I see first-hand the pressures they are facing.  These volunteers are not involved because they are looking for recognition or reward. They do what they do because they believe in their communities. They believe in supporting their neighbours, tackling isolation, creating opportunities for young people and keeping local organisations alive. However, the reality is that volunteer numbers are falling, the demands on community groups are increasing and the costs of operating are continuing to rise.  We have seen the positive impact that schemes such as the community activities fund and the community support fund have had in recent years. Those programmes recognise something very important: community organisations cannot continue to serve their communities if they cannot afford their insurance, electricity, heating and other essential costs. These schemes provide practical supports that help to keep groups with their doors open and continuing to provide valuable services. They show an understanding that operating costs are just as important as capital investment.  While recent funding programmes, including the local enhancement programme, are very welcome, the vast majority of funding available today is focused on capital projects, equipment and facility improvement. Of course, communities welcome these investments, but many groups tell me that accessing capital funding often brings additional challenges. Matched funding requirements can be difficult to achieve, applications can be complex, and projects require a significant voluntary commitment. There was a time when voluntary hours and community effort were recognised as an element of the matched funding contribution. Today, many groups are expected to raise substantial cash contributions or arrange loans while still providing hundreds of hours of unpaid work to deliver projects.  The groups that I meet tell me they need support to pay the bills that arrive every month. Groups such as the ICA guilds, LCDCs, town teams, active retirement associations, community centres, cultural groups and many other local community organisations continue to do outstanding work. They are supporting their members and strengthening community life. Yet every year, they face increased insurance premiums, rising utility costs and growing financial pressures. We cannot take these groups for granted any longer. Every community organisation that disappears takes with it experience, volunteer capacity and a valuable social outlet that is often impossible to replace.  That is why I am calling on the Minister to consider reintroducing a dedicated operational support fund similar to the community support fund.  It would be a fund specifically designed to assist with insurance costs, utility bills and other day-to-day expenses. It would provide immediate meaningful support to the organisations that form the backbone of community life. If we are serious about supporting volunteers, strengthening communities and promoting rural and social development then we must ensure these groups have the resources they need to grow and survive. Could the Minister of State outline whether consideration has been given to the reintroduction of such a scheme and what measures can be taken to ensure that grassroots community organisations receive the practical support they need to continue serving their communities? The reality is simple: these volunteers have kept the flag flying in our communities for years and now it is our turn to do our part. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mary Butler  I thank Senator Scahill for raising this issue, which I am taking on behalf of the Minister of State, Deputy Buttimer. He is not in a position to be here himself but he asked me to take it. We all recognise that volunteers are the backbone of every community. The majority of us who end up in politics have probably come through the community system. If you are on one committee you are on five. There is no doubt that we are involved in so many things locally. That is how I ended up becoming a politician after being involved in the community sector for the majority of my life. That is why community support funds are really important.  The fund was first announced in November 2022 and it provided funding of \u20ac10 million to support community groups impacted by rising energy costs. It supported groups, particularly in disadvantaged areas, with their running costs such as utility or insurance bills, as well as with improvements to their facilities. Groups were also able to use the funding to carry out necessary repairs and to purchase equipment such as tables and chairs, tools and signage, laptops and printers, lawn-mowers, canopies and training equipment. They were never more important than when we had Storm \u00c9owyn not so long ago. Community organisations and groups were able to step up and support communities that had no electricity and were not able to heat a bottle for a baby or charge a phone. We recognise how important the groups are.  The community support fund is the latest iteration of the programme, which was formerly known as the community enhancement programme and has been delivered by the Department of Rural and Community Development and the Gaeltacht since 2018. The programme continues to be delivered today under the title of the local enhancement programme, LEP. Since 2018, the Department has provided funding of \u20ac72.9 million to support projects in more than 36,000 community groups and organisations the length and breadth of the country. The local enhancement programme is targeted towards supporting communities that are impacted by disadvantage, as identified in the local economic and community plan. It provides small capital grants to community and voluntary groups for the improvement or refurbishment of their facilities and for the purchase of equipment.  The local enhancement programme for 2026, which was announced on 5 December 2025, was welcomed by Senator Scahill. It provides \u20ac7 million in capital supports to many small community groups and organisations, particularly those which serve disadvantaged communities in rural and urban areas. The fund is administered locally on behalf of the Department by local community development committees, LCDCs, across the country, with support from the local authorities. Each LCDC received an allocation of funding under the programme, which it will distribute to eligible applicants and projects once the appraisal process has been completed. That is all very welcome. It should be noted that the LEP for 2026 provided only capital supports. That is the issue Senator Scahill raises. The Government is aware of the pressure on community groups regarding current expenditure items such as electricity bills and maintenance. This will be considered in the context of the 2027 budgetary Estimates process.  The funding allocation is calculated using a resource allocation model that takes population levels and deprivation indices into account. Using this methodology, a baseline amount of funding of \u20ac100,000 is provided to each local authority to ensure a minimum level of funding intervention in each area, sufficient to deliver tangible improvements. Senator Scahill has welcomed the funding that has been provided over many years. It is equitably distributed across all the local authorities. LCDCs do great work. The point he makes relates to the pressure on community groups due to expenditure on electricity bills and other running costs. As the Minister of State outlined in his response, this will be considered in the context of the 2027 budgetary Estimates process. I will speak to him about this. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gareth Scahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Gareth Scahill  I thank the Minister of State very much. She is right that so many people across this House have come through the voluntary sector. Last Thursday the Minister, Deputy Calleary, opened the Castlerea swimming pool. He welcomed the provision of \u20ac73,000 from the community recognition fund for the Castlerea Town Team, in conjunction with Roscommon County Council. It is an organisation of which I have been secretary for the past three years. I am a former chairperson of the organisation. I think of the Suck Valley Way. I am a former member of the LCDC in Roscommon so I am familiar with the fund for supporting those groups. I speak with the ICA groups and the community development companies, CDCs, which are keeping buildings going. They are providing support for their communities. In terms of overheads, I was talking to someone who told me the lottos are not paying now. The volunteers to sell the tickets are not there. The costs are continuing to spiral. We are in jeopardy of losing these voluntary organisations and supports within our community if we cannot come up with a fund to support them. The Minister of State spoke of \u20ac10 million in 2021 or 2022. That is the sort of money we are talking about. It would go an awfully long way with these community groups. We need to stand up and fight for them. I thank the Minister of State for her contribution today. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mary Butler  I thank Senator Scahill very much for raising this topic. I agree that there continues to be a need for LEP funding to support the excellent work our community groups deliver nationwide. It must be acknowledged that \u20ac72.9 million has been provided by the Department of Rural and Community Development and the Gaeltacht since 2018. The Minister, Deputy Calleary, was in Waterford last Monday week and he attended 16 events. A lot of money is being delivered but I take on board what the Senator says. The Minister of State, Deputy Buttimer, is fully committed to delivering this funding. They are his words, not mine. Every day, as Minister of State in the Department, he has the pleasure of meeting the people and groups that benefit from grants under the LEP.  I understand exactly where Senator Scahill is coming from. During Covid things changed in relation to fundraising and volunteers. People are not as keen to get on boards now because there is a lot of governance involved and a lot of forms to be signed. I thank the Senator for raising this really important issue, which affects every single constituency in Ireland. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Victor Boyhan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Victor Boyhan)  I thank the Minister of State very much. I really appreciate her coming into the House today to deal with the first two Commencement matters. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mary Butler  I thank the Acting Chair. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Departmental Funding"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_6","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Driver Test","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_6","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Victor Boyhan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mike Kennelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mike-Kennelly.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Mike-Kennelly.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Frankie Feighan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Frank-Feighan.S.2002-09-12","memberCode":"Frank-Feighan.S.2002-09-12","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Victor Boyhan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Victor Boyhan)  I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Feighan. The next Commencement matter is in the name of Senator Kennelly. It relates to the establishment of driving test centres, in particular in Listowel, County Kerry. As there is a list of every test centre in The Irish Times today, it is very topical that he should be raising this issue. The floor is his. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mike Kennelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mike-Kennelly.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Mike-Kennelly.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mike Kennelly  I was unaware of that to be honest. I must get a copy of The Irish Times . I welcome the Minister of State to the Seanad. I wish to raise with him the urgent need for the provision of an additional Road Safety Authority driving test centre in north Kerry to serve communities such as Listowel, Ballybunnion, Tarbert, Moyvane, Ballyduff and surrounding areas. It is a huge area.  At present, County Kerry is served by just two main test centres for standard driving tests in Tralee and Killarney. This is despite the fact that very significant demand exists across the region. Figures provided by the RSA show that in 2025 alone, 3,736 tests were conducted in Tralee and 3,933 in Killarney, with a further 1,346 tests in Tralee and 1,477 in Killarney in the first four months of 2026. These figures clearly demonstrate the volume of demand already being handled by these limited centres. However, even more concerning are the waiting lists. In Tralee, the number of applicants waiting for a driving test invitation has consistently remained too high altogether, fluctuating between 900 and more than 1,000 people through 2025, reaching 1,009 in April of this year.  Similarly, in Killarney, hundreds remain waiting at any given time, with 714 applicants still awaiting as of April 2026. This means that across Kerry alone, more than 1,500 people are typically waiting for a test invitation at any one time. That does not account for those who must reapply after unsuccessful attempts. The data on passes and failures further underline the pressure on the system. In 2025 there were 1,876 passes and 1,481 failures in Tralee. In Killarney there were 1,899 passes and 1,684 failures.  They are back in the system again, and maybe for the third time.  This shows that a substantial number of applicants do not pass on their first or second attempt, and must re-enter the system, often facing the same long waiting periods again for a second or even third test. The result is a compounding backlog, which is why my Commencement matter is of the highest importance.  For people in north Kerry, the impact is particularly severe. Residents of north Kerry must travel considerable distances - it is wide open territory - most often to Tralee, and in some cases Killarney, for both lessons and tests. This places an added financial and logistical burden on learner drivers and their families, especially in a rural area with limited public transport options.  The Listowel municipal district alone has a population of approximately 32,000 people, representing a substantial demand base that is not being directly served by a local test centre. Given the scale of demand, the consistently high waiting times and the additional pressures created by repeat tests, there is a strong and evidence-based case for the RSA to reassess north Kerry. Has a detailed demand and capacity assessment been undertaken specifically for north Kerry, including the Listowel municipal district area? If not, can we initiate one as soon as possible? Will consideration be given to establishing a driving test centre in Listowel or providing a part-time or outreach service in the area? Can immediate measures be introduced to reduce waiting times, especially acknowledging the cycle of repeat tests, which is further adding to backlogs?  The current situation in Kerry is not sustainable. It is placing an unfair burden on rural communities and delaying access to employment, education and independence for many people. It is time that north Kerry was properly recognised in the planning of driving test services. The biggest issue we have right now is road safety. People learning how to manoeuvre properly and safely on our roads should do so on their local roads. People travelling 50 or 60 minutes in a car to do a test on a side street in another jurisdiction is just not working, and that is why I am calling for a driving test centre to be located in north Kerry. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Frankie Feighan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Frank-Feighan.S.2002-09-12","memberCode":"Frank-Feighan.S.2002-09-12","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation (Deputy Frankie Feighan)  I thank Senator Kennelly for raising this matter. As he may be aware, under the Road Safety Authority Act 2006, the Road Safety Authority, or RSA, has statutory responsibility for the national driver testing service. This includes full responsibility for operational matters, including scheduling of tests and all decisions in relation to the opening of new driver testing centre locations. Neither the Minister of State with responsibility for transport or the Department have any function or powers in deciding on the location of new driver testing centres.  Reducing driver testing wait times has been a priority for my colleague, the Minister of State with responsibility for transport, Deputy Canney, since taking office. In May last year, he directed the RSA to produce and publish a service recovery plan to return the national average waiting time to ten weeks by the beginning of September 2025, and this was achieved. The current national average waiting time on 13 June 2026 was 11.6 weeks, which is above the service level agreement of ten weeks. I am informed that the RSA is continuing to focus on addressing centres with higher demand and wait times. However, it should be noted that the driver test service continues to experience high demand, and the number of applications has increased by 17% to the end of May when compared with the same period in 2025.  In respect of County Kerry, I am informed that as of 31 May 2026, the average waiting time for a driving test is 14 weeks in Tralee and 13 weeks in Killarney test centres. While the average wait time remains above the target ten-week period, this marks an improvement on the 16-week average wait times for both Tralee and Killarney test centres in May 2025. In addition, as the Senator will be aware, people seeking a driving test can apply to any test centre. In that regard, he may wish to note that driver testing wait times at the Newcastle West testing centre, which is relatively close to Listowel, stands at 11 weeks as of 31 May 2026.  In September 2024, the Department of Transport conveyed sanction for 70 additional driver testing posts on a permanent basis, bringing the permanent sanction to 200, which represents a doubling of permanent posts since June 2022. As of 13 June 2026, 194 testers were active, with an additional five in training. This marks a significant increase on the 151 available at the beginning of 2025. I am told that the RSA is working to reach its full complement of 200 testers subject to the next successful training and onboarding of new recruits. It is important to note, however, that while a driver tester may be assigned to one centre, testers routinely and regularly move between centres to meet demand. The RSA has also indicated that overtime testing is continuing in 2026.  The driver testing booking system now makes available cancelled test slots for candidates to take up at short notice. On behalf of the Minister of Transport, I encourage learner drivers awaiting a test to monitor this channel, which may provide an opportunity to book an earlier testing date.  The opening of a new centre in Listowel is a matter for the RSA. The authority has indicated that the processes for opening a new driving test centre are informed primarily by sustained demand within a geographic area, operational requirements, accessibility for customers, driver tester capacity and the availability of suitable accommodation and infrastructure. There are no plans to open a driver testing centre in Listowel, and I am told it has not been highlighted by the RSA as a proposed new location within current planning considerations. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mike Kennelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mike-Kennelly.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Mike-Kennelly.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mike Kennelly  I thank Minister of State for his response. As he can see from my data and his data, it is evidently clear that a driving test centre is needed in the north Kerry area. The Minister of State said that the 14-week wait time in Tralee, which is three and a half months, and the 13 weeks in Killarney are improvements on the 16-week average wait times for both centres. Most of the people who are waiting in those areas are from north Kerry, if the Department wants more data.  I urge the Minister of State to contact the RSA to make north Kerry a priority area when choosing a location for a driving test centre. The data is there and the evidence is clear that we need a driver safety testing centre in north Kerry. The RSA said that north Kerry has not been highlighted to it as a new location for a driver testing centre as of yet. I propose that the RSA be notified through the Department, so that we can come to a very easy solution to the problem in north Kerry for new drivers. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Frankie Feighan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Frank-Feighan.S.2002-09-12","memberCode":"Frank-Feighan.S.2002-09-12","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Frankie Feighan  I can see that the Senator is disappointed with the response. It is not exactly the response he wanted. The RSA has made good progress over the past year, and it does continue to work hard to manage the backlog in the national driving testing service. It is a priority of my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, that the average wait times return to the ten-week target as set out in the service level agreement as soon as possible.  I recognise the challenges that excessive waiting times are imposing on people throughout the county and especially, as the Senator said, in the north of the county. I welcome the Road Safety Authority's commitment to restoring average wait times to the ten-week level, and test centres are still above the national average. However, the Senator has made it clear, and I have heard him loud and clear, that he requires a new test centre in Listowel. I will certainly bring that back to Minister, and again I thank him for raising this important issue. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Victor Boyhan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Victor Boyhan)  I thank the Minister of the State for his time. We appreciate him coming to the Seanad. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Driver Test"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_7","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Special Educational Needs","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_7","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Victor Boyhan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Clonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","memberCode":"Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Victor Boyhan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Victor Boyhan)  The Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan, is welcome to the House. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Clonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","memberCode":"Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Tom Clonan  I thank the Minister of State for coming here. I appreciate that the line Minister is here.  I express my appreciation for the Minister of State coming to hear me out. I travelled to Loughrea and met the parents of children with Down's syndrome. They are listening in now as we speak and watching this. There is a formula of words in Circular 0024\/2025 under \"Criteria for Enrolment\" in paragraphs (1)(b) and 2(a). As criteria for acceptance in these special classes, they must have a delayed language disorder or a speech sound disorder of \"unknown origin\". That de facto excludes children with disabilities that are known, for example, Down's syndrome. It is a rather perverse form of words because it excludes children who absolutely need this intensive speech therapy to become verbal. What really struck me in my meeting with the parents in Loughrea was their moral distress at the fact that they had brought this to the attention of the Minister, Deputy Naughton, met her, and the former Minister of State, Senator Rabbitte, and they had agreed a pilot scheme would be run in CDNT 8 in Loughrea. The gold standard internationally for children with Down's syndrome, for example, is that they receive four intensive speech therapy sessions per week over two years based on the principle of motor-based learning. If they get that intervention, they become verbal. There are 20 children affected in this way in CDNT 8. For want of the deployment of one speech therapist, these children are likely to become non-verbal. Human speech is the most powerful instrument we have, the human voice, to mobilise personal power, socialise and be included. To allow children to allow children to become non-verbal, 20 little citizens - the parents tell me in their engagement with other parents' groups, there is a similar number of children in every CDNT in this position. The Minister gave a response to them in August 2025 said that the boards of management of schools are permitted to enrol students who do not meet the prescribed criteria but have an SLD diagnosis to fill any remaining places in these classes, which includes children with Down's syndrome. I find that statement grotesque because it means ah sure look, if there are any places left over we will slot one of your children in, a child with Down's syndrome. That is not a rights-based response and that comes from the Minister. We are here to serve the people. I have a mandate to raise these issues. The Minister of State has a mandate; I know him personally as the former Chair of the Joint Committee on Disability Matters. I know exactly how he feels about these matters. This formula of words based on an SLD of \"unknown origin\" has to be taken out of the circular. The needs of these little citizens need to be met. To become non-verbal is a needless, preventable and catastrophic outcome for these children and their families. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Education and Youth (Deputy Michael Moynihan)  I thank the Senator for raising the issue. There is a script that will be sent around. It goes through the various documentation going back to over 30 years ago. SLD, other issues and developmental language disorders are part of it. From the special education point of view, across government we passionately believe that if we invest properly in special education and education for people who need additional educational supports, we will empower children, families and the State into the future. The Senator may have seen over the past number of months the various debates we have had between our Department and across government on further funding. He knows my bona fides on this and the issues we need to meet head on. I look at the education system, CDNTs and the other support mechanisms in place. One of the first decisions we took a year ago was about having therapies in schools rather than with any other body. That is to try to ensure children have the best possible supports within education.  I have met a number of groups representing people with Down's syndrome. I met national groups and parents over the past number of months. They all pinpoint the specific challenges or specific references to the circular. The circular was issued early in 2025. It is being reviewed to make sure the aims when it was issued meet the needs of the children. I know the great enabler for children with speech difficulties or disorders is to provide the support to get them verbal. As the Senator rightly said, that opens up a new chapter for them. I understand that. My role is Minister of State with responsibility for special education and inclusion. If I am serious about it, it has to be inclusive of everybody. We have to have rules and regulations around how we operate but they have to be as inclusive as possible across the system to ensure everybody has access to education. Previous Ministers met them. They are taken by the points made. I am aware of the high level engagement the Senator has as well and condensing that down to the blockages. I can go through the circulars, different stages in the Department and the work that has been done. We constantly review whether, by trying to be inclusive, we are excluding. Reading classes or classes that allow and help speech are valued by families. I take the Senator's point. We constantly review to ensure we provide positive, inclusive education. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Clonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","memberCode":"Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Tom Clonan  The parents have provided me with a great deal of extensive and lengthy briefings. They have set out every law from the Equal Status Act to the Equality Act and the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, which we are in breach of, contrary to the letter and spirit of the convention. At the moment there is no pathway of treatment for these children through the Health Service Executive CDNT model. To get the intensive speech therapy these children need, their only shot is to get it by means of these special classes. I ask the Minister of State explicitly in the 60 seconds he has, whether he he undertake to take out those three words, \"of unknown origin\". They are explicitly discriminatory. Will his office please respond to the parents in Loughrea? They really need an update on the pilot project and for it to be implemented and operationalised. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Moynihan  There is no point in me coming in here and making wild statements. I will take the Senator's point very seriously on board. I will reflect very carefully on it. I will give him that commitment. On the major point, I understand the challenges on the CDNTs and their operation. That is why a decision was made to put the education therapy service within the education system to provide occupational and speech and language therapies, for example.  We have a body of work to do to make sure we are training therapists. Work has been done last year and this year to expand the number of places.  The kernel of what the Senator is saying is about these parents and these children getting the help and support within the education system. We are putting that into the education therapy system. I will reflect carefully on the specific point he made and report back to him, and we will follow up on any of the issues outstanding. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Victor Boyhan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Victor Boyhan)  I thank the Minister of State for his time and for coming to the House. It is greatly appreciated. I thank the Senator for raising this as a Commencement matter. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionra\u00ed ar 11.21 a.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 11.32 a.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Sitting suspended at 11.21 a.m. and resumed at 11.32 a.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Special Educational Needs"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_8","debateType":"orderofBusiness","bill":null,"showAs":"An tOrd Gn\u00f3 - Order of Business","counts":{"speechCount":45,"speakerCount":18},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alison Comyn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Evanne N\u00ed Chuilinn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Evanne-N\u00ed-Chuilinn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Evanne-N\u00ed-Chuilinn.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Victor Boyhan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria McCormack","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-McCormack.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Maria-McCormack.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Clonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","memberCode":"Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robbie Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sharon Keogan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Noel O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Noel-O'Donovan.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Noel-O'Donovan.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pauline Tully","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Linda Nelson Murray","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sarah O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"R\u00f3n\u00e1n Mullen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/R\u00f3n\u00e1n-Mullen.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"R\u00f3n\u00e1n-Mullen.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aubrey McCarthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Anois, a chairde, I call on the Acting Leader to outline the Order of Business. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  The Order of Business is No. 1, motion regarding the proposed approval by Seanad \u00c9ireann of the Data Protection Act 2018, section 60(6) and section 51(3) regulations 2026, to be taken on conclusion of the Order of Business without debate; No. 2, motion regarding the proposed approval by Seanad \u00c9ireann for an amending EU directive to combat firearms trafficking and other firearms' related offences, to be taken at 12.45 p.m. and to conclude no later than 1.45 p.m., with the time allocated to the opening remarks of the Minister not to exceed five minutes, those of all Senators not to exceed five minutes and the Minister to be given no less than five minutes to reply to the debate; No. 3, Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na (Powers) Bill, 2026 - Report and Final Stages, to be taken on conclusion of No. 2 and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion no later than 4.45 p.m. by the putting of one question from the Chair, which shall, in relation to amendments include only those set down or accepted by Government; No. 4, statements to mark Irish Aids Day 2026, to be taken at 5 p.m. and to conclude no later than 6.15 p.m., with the time allocated to the opening remarks of the Minister not to exceed eight minutes, those of all Senators not to exceed five minutes and the Minister to be given no less than five minutes to reply to the debate; and No. 5, Private Members' business, Prohibition of Lethal Autonomous Weapons Systems Bill 2026 - Second Stage, to be taken at 6.15 p.m., with the time allocated to the debate not to exceed two hours. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Before I call the first Senator I welcome, as guest of an Seanad\u00f3ir Mary Fitzpatrick, Sonya Lennon of Lennon Courtney and Dublin Chamber of Commerce. She is most welcome to Seanad \u00c9ireann. Thanks for visiting here today. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alison Comyn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alison Comyn  The first worrying report I will talk about is one I saw on the RT\u00c9 website this morning. Forty-one people are due in court on shoplifting offences. That is 41 people in one court alone in D\u00fan Laoghaire. It warrants a wider conversation on retail crime. There are 15 children included in those 41 people. For the first time, it is being highlighted that meat, at a very high cost, is being shoplifted en masse . As a journalist, I have sat in many courtrooms over the years. There used to be petty crime and usually it was quite an unfortunate occasion that somebody would have to shoplift. This is now being done en masse and it is costing retailers \u20ac1.62 billion every year, which is a phenomenal amount of money. This is organised crime. My colleague, Senator Mary Fitzpatrick, has brought the Protection of Retail Workers Bill, which is vital. The fact that we have the highest rate of shoplifting in Europe warrants a wider debate in the House on how we can help our retailers in keeping their businesses afloat.  On another note, I will also mention that two counties, Sligo and my own county of Louth, are representing Ireland in the Entente Florale, which is a fantastic competition held every year. Congratulations to Riverstown in Sligo and Blackrock in County Louth. These are two wonderful areas. The work done by Tidy Towns is phenomenal. It is the first time that Sligo has been entered into that and I wish it luck, although I hope that Louth wins the award. The judging will take place on 9 July. The competition is being hosted in Ireland this year, in Carlow, which is fantastic. Good luck to everybody involved in that.  I have another congratulations from my parish to Tullyallen Men's Shed which is celebrating a decade in existence. It started all those years back. Daithi Cusack is one of the founding members and is still the chair of the shed. We all know what incredible work the men's sheds organisation does for men across the country. It is fantastic that it has got funding from the Department of rural and community development over the years. It keeps them afloat. It is one of those cases where it is not just the work the organisation does but the effect it has on the members. It is fantastic for men's mental health. It gets them to talk and to gather together. I also have to mention that the women's sheds, or hens' sheds as they are sometimes known, are doing incredible work as well but they are not receiving the funding. We are working on that. They need to be in an umbrella organisation for that to happen. All of us should be working towards that and making sure that the women are also getting the funding that the men get. Another hearty congratulations to Tullyallen Men's Shed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I welcome guests of Senator Sharon Keogan. I also welcome Councillor Gr\u00e1inne Maguire, her intern, Noel Monahan, and his mother and grandmother, who are in a supervisory capacity for his time in Leinster House. I also welcome Nessa and Angie Teehan. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Evanne N\u00ed Chuilinn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Evanne-N\u00ed-Chuilinn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Evanne-N\u00ed-Chuilinn.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Evanne N\u00ed Chuilinn  Last January, we heard an awful lot of fairly shocking evidence at the Oireachtas joint committee on sport in both public and private sessions, in relation to Rowing Ireland and the practices of the high-performance programme over the past five years in Cork and around the country. Off the back of those hearings, both public and private, the Minister, Deputy O'Donovan, announced that an independent inquiry would be launched into what transpired and how to prevent athletes from going through similar circumstances when they are representing Ireland and training for that.  I welcome the news this week that an independent inquiry will begin. It has been set in motion. Amanda Bennett will chair the inquiry. It will begin immediately and a report will be published at the end of this calendar year. This is really encouraging because these athletes have been waiting for movement on this. There was a bit of momentum at the beginning of the year but this inquiry will begin. Amanda Bennett will not be known to a lot of people in Ireland, which is probably a good thing because it needs to be an independent inquiry. She is a governance expert. She is the former head of governance at UK Sport. She has literally written the book on sport governance. I would be the first person to be giving out if we had not picked the right person but this is a very positive moment for Irish sport, its integrity and the safeguarding of our athletes, which is what I will always go back to. I encourage all of the rowers, former rowers, parents and family members of rowers who have been emailing me in their droves, to now get in touch with the investigation and Amanda Bennett.  This is the avenue to be heard, first, but also to be spoken to. There will be interviews happening all summer and then the chair of the inquiry, Amanda Bennett, will report back to the Minister. I have asked that the terms of reference of the inquiry be wide enough that the findings of the report will be applicable to the wider landscape in sport because we have work to do on the safeguarding of our athletes elsewhere. Rowing, rather than being an isolated problem, is probably the tip of the iceberg, and we need to be aware of that. As I keep saying in the House, we need a sport integrity unit. I hope that will come out of the findings of this report.  I welcome the inquiry and investigation launched this week by the Minister, Deputy O'Donovan, which went to Cabinet yesterday. I look forward to our rowers and former rowers engaging with the process and accepting the findings of the report. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Victor Boyhan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Victor Boyhan  I note the Order of Business proposed by the Leader. In the weeks coming up to the summer recess, we are going to be busy. If there is a lot of additional legislation coming down the tracks, I ask the Leader to consider extending the sitting times, either to start earlier or finish later.  The Seanad is a revising Chamber. We have important legislative work to do. The Ministers and Members on all sides of the House need time. Let us work together constructively to see if we can start an hour or two earlier. I understand rural Senators have families but so do urban Senators. There are Senators falling out of here at 10 o'clock at night, with work to do, under pressure and with commitments. We need to bear all that in mind. Let us together look imaginatively and constructively at getting that business done between now and the summer.  I welcome the housing infrastructure investment fund, HIIF, announced by the Government yesterday. It is exciting, imaginative, bold and courageous. I hope the local authorities and all those providing housing are ready to avail of the funding that has been set aside. I thank the Government and the Minister for that. Well done to them.  I acknowledge and thank the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage for its statement of strategy for 2026 to 2028. It is mandatory reading for every Member who is interested in local government because it clearly sets out the strategy of the Government. There are some repeat objectives in this document. I commend the Minister and Ministers of State in that Department on pulling the strategy together and publishing it. It has been published for some time but has been updated.  The recurring theme is the local government task force. I ask the Leader to ascertain something from the Ministers in the Department. The local government task force was established and submitted a final report to the Government in which it made certain recommendations and suggestions for reform in relation to local authority structures, finance, government and additional matters. I understand the Minister was to bring this report to Cabinet. It is now June 2026. The Minister only received the report in March. It would be timely to publish the report or, possibly, have a briefing for Senators. I would have no difficulty with that. It is a matter for the Minister, ultimately. I acknowledge the work of the Cathaoirleach, Senator Mark Daly, in convening the commission on local democracy in the previous Seanad. Much of that fed into this report. I have raised a number of issues, all of which are positive. I hope we can make progress on all of them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria McCormack","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-McCormack.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Maria-McCormack.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Maria McCormack  I raise again the issue of STEM funding for the engagement officer in County Laois and concerns for the future of STEM education programmes. The last time I raised this matter in the Chamber, the Leader told me to submit a Commencement matter. I have done so three times and three times a Minister has refused to come into this Chamber to address why this STEM funding is being discontinued and what we are going to do about replacing it. This is really important, not just in rural schools but in urban schools as well.  Education is not just about academics and sport; it is also about other curriculum activities. Some children do not engage with sports and there are all of these other fantastic opportunities out there. This funding has been in place, and the STEM engagement officer has been coming into schools and helping children. I have spoken about the success of Rosenallis National School so many times in this Chamber and its students winning the VEX Robotics competition in Missouri. That is absolutely fantastic. The same goes for the Swan National School, which is a 29-pupil school. The schools are going to be absolutely devastated by this loss. I am furious that I have submitted a Commencement matter on this three times and I have been refused each time. I ask Leader to call on the Minister to give me an answer because I am not giving up on this. It is not acceptable that a Senator would submit a Commencement matter three times and still not have an answer. This funding and role are due to end on 23 June and I need to go back to these principals and local pupils to explain what is happening. I am hoping the Leader can get me an update or I will be in here next week raising it again. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Before I call on the next speaker, I welcome the guests of Senator Cathal Byrne, Maeve, Marian and Angelina and the Senator's intern Charlie. I welcome them to Seanad \u00c9ireann. I call Senator Mary Fitzpatick. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mary Fitzpatrick  The word \"ICE\" is a really negative word with very negative connotations, but when I said the word \"ICE\" this morning I was saying it in the north inner city. It is a very positive thing because ICE stands for the Inner City Enterprise. For those who do not know, it is a social enterprise referred to as the hub on the hill. Going up Constitution Hill towards Broadstone, it is on the right hand side. It is the old Dublin City Council Coleraine Street housing depot. It used to be an old housing depot and it became a regeneration project. Critically, it is now a social enterprise hub and a place in the north inner city where individuals with ideas, entrepreneurial spirit and innovation in their hearts can go. They can receive training and mentoring and there are workspaces available. It is a great collaboration between the social enterprise, Inner City Enterprise, with Dublin City Council providing the property. Roughly \u20ac500,000 was provided by the Minister, Deputy Dara Calleary, in the most recent tranche of funding to launch phase 2 this morning. Critically, businesses in the city have come on board and are supporting it. Very large enterprises in Dublin like Meta, Accenture and Bank of New York are all supporting individuals and small groups of people to explore, develop and succeed with their entrepreneurial activities.  The hub on the hill is a place of hope, ambition and opportunity. I congratulate everybody at Inner City Enterprise, including Evanne Kilmurray, CEO, Vincent Crowley, chairperson, and the whole team. Most importantly, I congratulate the people who go there daily and are making their dreams come alive. They have written outside \"Dream big, start small, act now\", and that is what is happening there. It is a great innovation and they all deserve to be congratulated. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Cathal Byrne  I welcome my office staff, Maeve, Marion, Angelina and our intern, Charlie, to Seanad \u00c9ireann. I know from experience that I would be lost without the work they do, day in and day out, in my offices in Enniscorthy and Wexford. I am very grateful to have them working for me and it is a great honour to be able to host them and bring them to Seanad \u00c9ireann. I know I speak for all Senators, if I might be so bold, in saying that we would all be lost without the staff we have in our offices. We are lucky and fortunate to have them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Clonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","memberCode":"Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Tom Clonan  Hear, hear. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Cathal Byrne  I request that we bring the Minister for higher education before Seanad \u00c9ireann to speak about our technological universities and get an update on where things are at. I am speaking specifically about the Wexford campus for the South East Technological University, SETU. Earlier this week, we had a significant announcement of funding which will open up a 1.3 km link road from Ballynagee in Wexford town out to where the new campus will be located. The funding will allow Wexford County Council to construct that road, which will open up land it owns for housing and for the new stadium for Wexford Football Club.  While this is a welcome announcement, we need the Higher Education Authority and the Department of higher education to come forward with an update on where exactly the Wexford campus is. The link road will be built. It will open up access to the land. We need to know whether the money is available to progress to the next phase of planning permission for the Wexford campus. I would like the Minister for higher education to come to the Chamber to give an update on that and many other issues in the technological university space. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Clonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","memberCode":"Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Tom Clonan  I raise the issue of the cost-of-living crisis. Earlier, I attended a meeting of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Disability Matters. Again, we had disabled citizens in tears describing their abject living conditions and the enduring and grinding poverty that they are forced to live in in this country. We are outliers in the European sense in that throughout the European Union, the disability allowance as we know it is disaggregated or not connected to income. It is a non-means-tested universal payment. We means-test. This year, the ESRI released figures for the cost of disability. This is not the cost of buying clothes or paying for groceries, rent or heating. This is before a person puts their hand in their pocket. The actual extra cost of having a disability of Ireland is between \u20ac488 and \u20ac550 per week. That is between \u20ac25,000 and \u20ac28,000 a year in extra costs such as medical costs, equipment, extra heating and transport. In total, the disability allowance is less than half of that. We need to have a non-means-tested universal payment of disability allowance.  While I welcome the discussion at government level on introducing a cost-of-disability payment, these are not hidden costs. They are quantified. What is not quantified is the moral distress, suffering, fear and anxiety that disabled person experience every day unnecessarily. According to one of the contributors this morning - a beautiful young man who is disabled with an honour's degree in history and a first-class master's degree - he experiences structural penalties on a daily basis. That is evidence of an ableist state. I ask for a debate in the House on the cost-of-living crisis, specifically as it applies to disabled citizens. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robbie Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Robbie Gallagher  In May 2018, the Irish people decided to repeal the eighth amendment to the Constitution. We all fully accept the decision of the people on that date. Forming a huge part of that decision was the three-day mandatory reflection period or cooling-off period from one consultation to the next. I am disappointed that Sinn F\u00e9in is the latest party to come forward to propose to remove that three-day mandatory wait. We are moving the goalposts on the people. We asked them to vote for something. We gave them the detail and they voted. We accept that, but now we are moving the goalposts by removing the three-day mandatory wait. I came across statistics from the HSE recently, which were enlightening. It stated that between 17% and 18%, which is roughly about one in every six women, who attend a first consultation with their GP do not attend the second. Surely, our time would be better spent reflecting and interrogating that data to see exactly what is going on here. We all have our opinions on it. I fully accept the decision that was made on that date but I have a problem with us changing what the Irish people were asked to vote for on that occasion. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sharon Keogan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Sharon Keogan  Hear, hear. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Noel O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Noel-O'Donovan.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Noel-O'Donovan.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Noel O'Donovan  I wish to discuss the issue of social media. It has been discussed many times in this Chamber and by various committees. It has been an ongoing national conversation for a number of years. I welcome news that the UK is introducing a ban to those under 16. Whether a \"ban\" is the right word or not, I do not know. I welcome the words of the T\u00e1naiste yesterday where he outlined that it is going to be a priority of his and the Government during our EU Presidency to put the issue on the agenda and that if the EU does not act, Ireland needs to stand alone. It is a real strong conversation. I have been contacted by a number of parents in recent days again seeking that we do the same in this country. It is a public health issue.  Social media has its merits and positives in terms of clear information and explaining matters, but it also has its negatives. It is affecting people. It is affecting our younger generations in particular. As politicians, if we asked ourselves whether we like social media in the work that we do and answered honestly, we would probably say \"No\". It is a conversation that we need to have. It is changing the world that we live in. I think to a time when we used to do mathematics in primary school and recall the introduction of calculators. I say it all the time. If I was asked to do a long division or long multiplication in my mind or down on paper, I would struggle to do it. My fear is that phones and social media are taking away our art of conversation. That is the art of who we are as Irish people and what we are good at. If we go into any establishment now, we will see people on their phones, and I worry about that. We need to act. We have a responsibility as public representatives to do something about it. That is why we are here. We need to have the courage to speak out, put policies in place and challenge those within institutions, be it the EU or our Departments, to make sure there is clear policy. I would welcome a discussion on it. We need to act sooner rather than later. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pauline Tully","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Pauline Tully  On Saturday last in Cavan, the first Pride march was held in the county town. I congratulate those who organised it and took part. It was a very colourful and vibrant celebration of people from the LGBT+ community. I put up an ad online beforehand wishing it well. The commentary on that ad was absolutely vile. Laura, in my office, turned off the comments. It is absolutely outrageous what people feel they can say to others online.  After the parade, I attended Cavan's Africa Day. Nationally, Africa Day was celebrated in May, but in Cavan, they had the celebration last Saturday. It was another celebratory event full of music, song, colour and vibrancy. It celebrated the diverse cultures within Africa and their contribution to our country. It was attended by people from this country and other countries outside of Africa. Again, there were concerns about that event and advertising it too much in case of the backlash they would get on social media and an expectation of a backlash when the reports go into the local paper. I wish to say to both communities, and indeed many other minority communities who suffer this on a regular basis, that it is a minority of people who do this. The majority of people do not think like that. I ask them to remember that some of the people who are putting up comments do not even live in this country. Some of them are not even people; they are bots. It is vile and outrageous that social media companies are not doing more about this spread of hate. It is something that is being pushed by right-wing agendas, both nationally in this country and internationally and it just needs to stop. More people need to stand up and call it out for what it is, which is pure racism and homophobia. That is not representative of the majority of the people of this country. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Linda Nelson Murray","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Linda Nelson Murray  I wish to raise the topic of local radio stations around the country. It has been brought up here previously. I cannot express the importance of having a radio station like LMFM in our community enough. The staff call themselves the voice of the north-east. They reach up to 300,000 people on a daily basis. What has happened with local radio stations over the past month is that we have learnt that there are going to be lots of job losses and directors of different stations, like LMFM, will not be there in the future. I fear for how we will get local news and hear about community events if this is what happening to local radio stations.  LMFM provides amazing GAA coverage, strong local journalism and champions local communities. It gives the north-east its own voice. It supports local businesses. I wish to give a shout-out to the Adrian Kennedy show with Katie and the lunch time show with Gerry and Louise. My own mam and dad, who are not with us anymore, had LMFM on every morning without fail.  That is where they got a lot of their local news. It is also where they got the death notices, which are really important to people who cannot access them somewhere else. My mam and dad never would have been able to use smartphones and there are still so many people who cannot use them. We are expected now to be an ultra-modern IT country that can access everything online, and we cannot. It is the same as Senator Kennelly talking about sport being online and big GAA matches. People just want to be able to watch it regularly on their TVs. They want to be able to listen to local news regularly on their radios and not always have to tune into something on a smartphone or a smart device. This needs a bigger conversation. The last thing we need to see is local, good radio stations like LMFM being threatened into not being able to survive in the future and cutting jobs because of the pressures they are under due to costs and different people getting news in different ways. Just as we support our local newspapers, we need to support our local radio stations as well, particularly LMFM. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sharon Keogan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Sharon Keogan  I welcome my intern Noel Monahan and his mother and grandmother, Nessa Teehan and Angie Teehan. Noel has been an intern in my office over the last six to eight months. He has been a valuable asset to my team and I thank him for his contribution.  I want to raise an issue that warrants urgent attention from the House and from the Minister. Last week a young mother named Grace died by suicide after spending more than a year trying to be reunited with her infant son who was removed into care shortly after his birth. Her death is a tragedy and I extend my sympathy to her family. It compels us to look more closely at a broader issue that receives remarkably little scrutiny. International research has found that parents, particularly mothers, whose children are taken into care face significantly elevated risks of self-harm and suicide. A study published in The Canadian Journal of Psychiatry found that such mothers are almost three times more likely to attempt suicide and more than four times more likely to die by suicide. Similar findings have also been documented in the UK. This raises a very basic question. What do we know about this in Ireland? Does Tusla have data on the deaths, including deaths by suicide, of parents whose children are in care or subject to care proceedings? If not, how can it meaningfully assess the impact of child removal on parental well-being and mortality? Has any independent research been commissioned in this jurisdiction to examine this issue? If the answer to these questions is \"No\", then we must accept that Ireland currently has no reliable way of knowing how many parents may have died following the removal of their children from them, and that is not an acceptable position. In light of Grace's heartbreaking death and the clear international evidence, I call on the Minister to commission an independent national report into the mental health and mortality outcomes of parents whose children are removed into State care. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  I agree with Senator Keogan. It is important that more research is done and that there is more transparency around suicide and the impact of children being taken into State care.  I have previously raised the issue of Rathmines post office being sold off, as well as the closures in recent years of post offices on Baggot Street, Kevin Street and in Donnybrook and Ballsbridge. That has had a hugely negative impact on those communities, particularly among the older members. It was announced recently that Rathmines post office is likely to be on the market in the middle of next year. Yet, there is no plan for what is going to happen to this historic building. It is really important that it stays in public hands. Rathmines post office could and should be at the heart of the community. It a vibrant community. It is a unique part of Dublin. The building itself is in the community since 1934. It is an art deco building and a building that cannot be replaced. If it is allowed to be sold off to a private developer, it would be a huge loss. It is beyond me how we could sell off such a beautiful building that has so much potential. It must and should be kept in the ownership of the State and, by extension, in the ownership of the local community. When the post office transfers to a new location, the Government needs to ensure the property remains in public ownership by facilitating the transfer of ownership to Dublin City Council, which has been engaged on the issue. There are some proposals from local community activists and different community groups on what might go in this space. In the future it should be a central hub for Rathmines community. It could be the heart of cultural and community activities as a venue for events, meetings and clinics. There is so much potential for this building and it would be a massive loss to find it turned into a caf\u00e9 or a hotel. We need to see ambitious, forward-thinking action taken by the State to ensure this property remains in public and community use, and that the long-term good of Rathmines is not left to chance on the market. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sarah O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Sarah O'Reilly  I was shocked at the comments of Deputy Richmond last night. After attending the annual conference of the International Planned Parenthood Federation on Monday, he has committed to doubling its funding from the Irish taxpayer. There is something incredibly colonialist about the West's tendency to eagerly fund abortions in developing countries. I remember a time when Ireland would send food, water and clothing, but now we pay for impoverished mothers to abort their children. The constant push for more abortions from the Government and the Opposition is really regressive and I cannot figure out where it is coming from. Yesterday, the Taoiseach and the T\u00e1naiste said they would be supporting Sinn F\u00e9in's Bill to remove the three-day wait period safeguard. This could be the first time in the Thirty-fourth D\u00e1il that either the Taoiseach or the T\u00e1naiste has voted for something coming from the Opposition. They are happy to support more abortions but voted against the emergency winter payment for people with disabilities, against paid leave for women going for cancer screening, and against sanctions for Israel. They will not remove the means test for carers, they refuse to introduce a second rate of child benefit and they fail to protect vulnerable children in State care. What is the Government offering young women? It is offering fake pity and weak apologies. It is saying \"sorry you cannot afford a home, sorry you cannot afford groceries, sorry you have to live in your childhood bedroom but do not worry about raising a baby in your mam's house because we will just pay for an abortion for you.\" I was sitting my junior certificate when I was pregnant with my first child. Yes, it was tough at times but my life was not over. Instead of telling women their life is over if they get pregnant, how about we provide options for them to be able to keep their babies and raise them to be proud citizens of this country? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sharon Keogan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Sharon Keogan  Hear, hear. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"R\u00f3n\u00e1n Mullen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/R\u00f3n\u00e1n-Mullen.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"R\u00f3n\u00e1n-Mullen.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator R\u00f3n\u00e1n Mullen  That is a hard act to follow. I commend Senator O'Reilly on every word she said. I also commend Senator Gallagher on his words earlier. I ask today for a debate on Ireland's spiralling abortion figures. The Sinn F\u00e9in Bill proposing to abolish the three-day waiting period is wrong in every respect. It will deny the very women who might need it the required guaranteed space to think and reflect about the irrevocable step that is abortion. Many women have benefited from that space and have kept their babies after the first appointment. This measure would also give comfort and assistance to those who would hustle women towards abortion, as we know sometimes happens. I am sorry to say that the leadership of the Taoiseach, the T\u00e1naiste and the Minister for Health on this issue is truly lamentable. I do not know why Miche\u00e1l Martin, Jennifer Carroll MacNeill and Simon Harris find it so difficult to empathise with the cause of a little human being at the earliest stage of his or her development in the womb. Perhaps it is because the child in the first trimester is so physically small. We know that in the first trimester the embryo develops into a foetus, which itself is Latin for the words \"little one\", with a functioning heartbeat, brain activity and distinct limbs. In the words of Spike Milligan: \"Small, but I WAS!\". These same politicians will wring their hands at spiralling violence in our society and rightly lament the destruction going on in Gaza and the Middle East. However, by their indifference to our spiralling abortion rates, and their refusal to ever consider the need to encourage a culture of life, they give momentum to the rising culture of violence in our society where the strongest exert power over the weak.  We all urgently need to rethink this issue together, to acknowledge that every abortion is a tragedy, and to at least commit together to working to reduce the number of abortions. I am reminded of a phrase in a song by Paul Simon \"Why deny the obvious child?\". Why is there such denial in our Oireachtas about the obvious child? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sharon Keogan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Sharon Keogan  Hear, hear. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I welcome the guests of Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice to the Public Gallery. You are most welcome to Seanad \u00c9ireann. Anois, we will have Senator McCarthy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aubrey McCarthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Aubrey McCarthy  I thank the Cathaoirleach and the Acting Leader. I just want to reiterate first of all what Senator Robbie Gallagher said when he mentioned legislation that we decided on, and we all agreed on to be accepted in the referendum that was approved. It seems disingenuous that we are revisiting that legislation in such a short time period.  I want to raise something that is affecting every town and is certainly affecting even my own family, which is the slow squeezing out of the small Irish business owner. I saw a post last week in The Irish Times about a caf\u00e9 owner whose caf\u00e9 is charging \u20ac4.25 for a latte. He did the economics on it and it showed that he is making 18 cent on each cup of coffee. The reality is that the margins are very thin and the margins are tight. The cost of insurance has exploded. Commercial rates and wage costs are rising. Everybody deserves a standard of living but small employers are trying to absorb all of this perfect storm of rising costs. They are trying to stay faithful and loyal to staff they have had for many years. I know because I recently closed a business of my own. I had kept it going because it was in the family for many years. Pride kept it going. It was there since 1967 but you realise there is only so much you can subsidise and it is a bit ridiculous doing it out of your own pocket when it is not making money. The worrying thing is that I believe we are losing the backbone of Ireland quietly. It is being done one business at a time. It is the local baker, the hairdresser and the caf\u00e9 owner. We are the people who sponsor the local football team, the local field day etc. The people in the small businesses in Ireland feel abandoned. I know it is hugely important to support foreign direct investment such Pfizer and Intel, etc., but small and medium-sized enterprises employ hundreds of thousands of people across this country and are the social glue of our towns and villages. We need to seriously examine what we are doing for small businesses because when they disappear, it is not easy to get them back. If they are going, the community will go with them. Ireland cannot become a country where we only support larger corporations. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sharon Keogan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Sharon Keogan  Hear, hear. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Anois, the Acting Leader to respond on the Order of Business. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  I thank the 16 Senators who contributed this morning. Senator Comyn spoke about the increase in shoplifting and mentioned the 41 court cases at the moment in D\u00fan Laoghaire. That is replicated right across the country. If you speak to owners of shops like Centra and Spar, they will tell you that shoplifting happens on a daily basis and nearly on an hourly basis. The kinds of things that are taken are normally day-to-day items that people just need. It is important that we have a debate in this House on the matter because it has been an ongoing issue for the last two to three years, at least. It has a real impact and it is a real cost to those businesses. It has an impact on the managing of those businesses. We will try to have a debate on it in this House.  Senator N\u00ed Chuilinn raised an issue involving Rowing Ireland that has been in the public domain for many years. It relates to the conditions that some of the best sportspeople in our country have had to deal with. It is hugely welcome that an independent inquiry has been launched by the Minister, and that there is hopefully a completion date by the end of this year. Senator N\u00ed Chuilinn has done a lot of work in the committee on this matter to try to give our athletes an opportunity to have a real, independent assessment of how they are being treated. Like the Senator, I hope that everyone who wants to speak up feels as though they are safe so that they can speak up and give their opinions. The Senator is right, hopefully, that we will accept any recommendations or any findings from the independent inquiry headed up by Amanda Bennett. I think there needs to be a broader scope across all sports and not just rowing. Having something like a sports integrity unit, as the Senator has advocated for a long time, would be a good base to work from.  Senator Boyhan is right that we have a busy schedule over the next number of weeks. It is always the case, as he knows because he has been here for quite some time, that coming up to the summer recess a lot of Bills have to go through the House. I am in an acting role at the moment so I cannot say for certain but I am more than happy to facilitate. As Senators are aware, we will sit early next Tuesday. I am more than happy to sit earlier on Tuesdays and later on Thursdays to make sure we can give people the opportunity to speak on important legislation that comes before the House. I am very flexible and I am sure the Senator knows that as well. I am very flexible in terms of our sitting times, when we start or when we finish.  The Senator also mentioned local government and the statement of strategy. That feeds into the local task force. Senator Davitt raised that last week and, like Senator Boyhan, he asked for a debate on it. Once that is published, this House in particular should have good opportunities to debate that issue with the Minister.  Senator McCormack has brought up STEM research and funding a number of times. It is getting very close to 23 June. I can understand her frustration. She said she has put it down as a Commencement matter but the Minister has not come in. We will try to sort that out. I am not sure of the full details of it. I know the Senator is very genuine on the matter. The Senator raised the incredible achievements of a school and said that wants to make sure the funding continues.  Senator Fitzpatrick spoke in relation to Inner City Enterprise, or ICE as she called it. I was worried about what she was going to talk about when she mentioned the word \"ICE\", but it is in a positive sense for once. They do phenomenal work. The social enterprise fund is there, in conjunction with Dublin City Council, to support people who have ambition and want to achieve their dream. It is great that phase 2 was launched this morning by the Minister, Deputy Calleary, and is supported by big tech companies here in Dublin to support that area. The Senator has always been an advocate for that.  Senator Cathal Byrne welcomed his staff. I think we all agree that we would be lost without our staff. That is for sure. He called for a debate in the Seanad with the Minister for higher education. I do not think we have had such a debate for quite some time, so I think there is an opportunity to do that. He outlined a really good example. Due to the housing infrastructure fund that has been put in place, and the fact that the Government is prioritising infrastructure right across the country, there is now approval for a 3 km road from Wexford town to the site where the Wexford campus of the South East Technological University is going to be. Now the responsibility is obviously on the college to deliver that campus. We need to have an update on that. It is not ideal if we are building the infrastructure around it but we still do not know when the actual campus is going to be built. I know this is a key priority for the Senator and for Wexford town.  Senator Clonan referred to the cost-of-living crisis in the context of this morning's meeting of the disability committee. I understand his genuine concern about the disability payment. As the Senator said, as public representatives we all understand the fear and distress that people go through when they are literally trying to make ends meet and have so many payments and costs because of a particular disability. We have done quite a lot but as a State we need to do better. We can do better and we will do better in supporting some of the most vulnerable people in our country. I will make sure that we ask for a debate with the Minister on that for the Senator.  Senator Rory Gallagher - sorry, I was thinking of the musician - Senator Robbie Gallagher spoke about----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"R\u00f3n\u00e1n Mullen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/R\u00f3n\u00e1n-Mullen.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"R\u00f3n\u00e1n-Mullen.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator R\u00f3n\u00e1n Mullen  Get him a guitar. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  If he could sing like Rory Gallagher----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"R\u00f3n\u00e1n Mullen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/R\u00f3n\u00e1n-Mullen.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"R\u00f3n\u00e1n-Mullen.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator R\u00f3n\u00e1n Mullen  That would be an electric contribution, in fairness. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  Senator Gallagher, along with Senators Sarah O'Reilly, Mullen and McCarthy, spoke on the eighth amendment. There is a vote on a Bill on this matter in the D\u00e1il tonight. We do not have a vote on it in the Seanad, but it might come at some point. Senator Gallagher and the other Senators raised some very valid personal views they have on tonight's decision. We all know it is a personal decision for everyone and we have to respect everyone's view on it. It is very hard to disagree with some of the points that were expressed here in this Chamber. Senator Mullen spoke about leadership and lack of leadership. When we are talking about this issue, it is a personal viewpoint.  Whether we agree or disagree we have to respect that it is a personal view. It is difficult for everyone to come to a conclusion on that. I would not disagree with the statements that were made here today. There are a lot of people in the country who voted in that referendum with the assurance that there were things in place. That is something that needs to be----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"R\u00f3n\u00e1n Mullen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/R\u00f3n\u00e1n-Mullen.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"R\u00f3n\u00e1n-Mullen.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator R\u00f3n\u00e1n Mullen  And a few who are alive because of the three-day waiting period. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  On the referendum, people certainly felt protected by having that three-day cushion in place but that is a wider debate we can have. The vote tonight is one for it to continue to Committee Stage. Perhaps it is at that point where those discussions can be had. However, at all times we need to be respectful of everyone\u2019s personal opinions on that. We are always good to do that in this House.  Senator Noel O\u2019Donovan spoke about social media and the UK ban, which was brought in because of what happened in the last number of weeks. As he said, parents are just asking for some sort of comfort because of the fear they have of social media, their lack of understanding of what kids are using and how they can become addicted to it. It is a real worry. The media committee, which I sit on along with Senator Mullen, produced a report on that. It did not include a recommendation that those under 16 years should be banned from social media but it had a lot of recommendations about algorithms, restrictions on use and age verification. That is all very well but there is a very strong case for having under-16s banned from social media. The point is always made that it is very hard to implement but that is not a reason not to do it. Implementing it is a decision afterwards but putting it into law is very important too. Senator Comyn was also very active on that debate at the committee too.  Senator Pauline Tully spoke about the first Pride march in Cavan and gave two really good examples, which lead in to what Senator O\u2019Donovan spoke about in terms of social media. You try to be inclusive and welcoming to different groups and parts of society, and people from different walks of life and different countries. There was also an African event held in Cavan. These are all positive things about welcoming good people into the community. There is a fear of what social media can do. It is very worrying. As Senator Tully said, those of us in politics are all used to having terrible comments made about us but it is being done to people for whom it is very undeserved. As Senator Tully said, it is very distressing when it is prejudiced or racist in nature. As loud as they are it is a very small minority. We see that come election time. When we talk to reasonable people on the doors, from my experience, people are always very welcoming and very supportive of people coming into this country, as well as people from different backgrounds and interests.  Senator Linda Nelson Murray spoke on the importance of local radio stations. I was on LMFM once about three years ago. I got a good grilling but I came through it all right. It has a great listener base just like every local radio station across the country. They are invaluable to our local communities and give trusted news, reports and discussions that are not always had on national radio stations. They are a great platform for small, local businesses or community groups to promote themselves. They obviously do the GAA and death notices but the important thing is that they are a trusted source for people in the area. The fear over the broadcast levy that is being introduced, which will see an increase of 69% over the next two years, is that it has the potential to have a dramatic impact on local radio stations. As the Senator said, we are seeing it already with people losing their jobs or cuts being made. That was not what was envisaged with this broadcast levy. The Minister has asked his Department to do a report to see what the impact would be on local radio stations. He has asked Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n to assess what can be done going forward. He is not in a position to do anything on this particular increase but we need certainty for local radio stations into the future because of the really good work they do. I will ask the Minister to come to the House on the subject. It is an issue that affects everyone across the country.  Senator Keogan spoke of the sad passing of Grace who died by suicide. She was a young mother who was going through a traumatic time after losing custody of her child. The Senator has done good work as a foster carer over many years and has a keen understanding of people going through trauma and care and kids being taken from their mother or father. I will ask the Minister about what information Tusla has, not just on this particular case but on how many cases it has like this across the country. It is very distressing. Senator Keogan called for a commission to do an independent report and Senator Andrews agreed. We will see if the Minister is willing to do that.  Senator Andrews spoke about the closure of the post office in Rathmines. There has been closure of a number of post offices across the country. Sometimes, you feel as if it is just rural ones but it is not \u2013 it is urban ones as well. It does have a real impact. Post offices are not being used to the same extent as before but some of them are in beautiful buildings and are a key element to a village or town, or a key area of Dublin such as Rathmines. The onus is on Dublin City Council to purchase it, make sure they get value for money, and do with it as it pleases with the agreement of the councillors. It is not something we should lose when it has such historic importance and is so important to the community and groups in the area. I support the Senator\u2019s advocacy on that.  Senator Sarah O\u2019Reilly spoke about the comments of the Minister of State, Deputy Richmond, on doubling funding aid for planned abortions abroad. I did not hear the comments but I know the Minister of State has been a real advocate for increasing funding for aid to developing countries in general. We are only one of two European countries at the moment, I think, which has increased international aid support. That is something all countries, particularly in Europe, need to do because of the reduction in aid from America, which has had a real impact on Third World countries. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"R\u00f3n\u00e1n Mullen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/R\u00f3n\u00e1n-Mullen.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"R\u00f3n\u00e1n-Mullen.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator R\u00f3n\u00e1n Mullen  Planned Parenthood is a very discreditable organisation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  I did not hear the comment on that----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  The Acting Leader without interruption. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  -----but I know the Minister of State is very supportive of international aid. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"R\u00f3n\u00e1n Mullen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/R\u00f3n\u00e1n-Mullen.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"R\u00f3n\u00e1n-Mullen.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator R\u00f3n\u00e1n Mullen  It has been involved in the trading in body parts and all of that horrible stuff. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  The Acting Leader without interruption. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  If the Senator wants detail on that, she can put down a Commencement matter on it.  Senator Mullen spoke on the eighth amendment. I spoke on that at the start. He spoke about empathy for little children. I think most people have empathy in general but people have different viewpoints. Some people have empathy for women going through difficult pregnancies. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"R\u00f3n\u00e1n Mullen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/R\u00f3n\u00e1n-Mullen.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"R\u00f3n\u00e1n-Mullen.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator R\u00f3n\u00e1n Mullen  Both. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  I have both. However, I understand and take the Senator\u2019s view and concerns genuinely, and his consistency on the matter.  Senator McCarthy spoke about small businesses and rising costs. That is a real challenge for businesses. A lot of businesses are under huge pressure but want to continue because they do not want their staff to lose their jobs. Often, they are hardly making ends meet and just surviving. We have made a lot of changes for employees in recent years in relation to the minimum wage, sick pay and pensions. All these are the right things to do. They support people on a lower wage and support people to have a pension. We should do this and it is the right thing to do, but we have to remember that it comes at a massive cost to employers. That is why the Minister, Deputy Burke, has made some changes in relation to pausing sick pay in particular and not putting it up to ten days. It is why he is introducing the 9% VAT rate in the hospitality sector, including hairdressers and others. We need to have a balance in that and make sure we support people on low pay, in particular, and make it worthwhile to work. At the same time, we need to recognise these costs have a huge impact on businesses and they need to be supported as well. The Senator asked for a debate on that and I am more than happy to do that. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Order of Business agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"An tOrd Gn\u00f3 - Order of Business"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_9","debateType":"motion","bill":null,"showAs":"Data Protection Regulations: Motion","counts":{"speechCount":2,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_9","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  I move:  That Seanad \u00c9ireann approves the following Regulations in draft:  Data Protection Act 2018 (Section 60(6)) (Scoping Exercise in Response to Requests from Dignity4Patients) (Amendment) Regulations 2026,  Data Protection Act 2018 (Section 51(3)) (Scoping Exercise in Response to Requests from Dignity4Patients) (Amendment) Regulations 2026,  copies of which were laid in draft form before Seanad \u00c9ireann on 11th June, 2026.\u201d "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I welcome the guests of usher, Le\u00f3n de Barra, and also the guest of Deputy Brendan Smith. They are welcome to Seanad \u00c9ireann. I thank them for being here today. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionra\u00ed ar 12.30 p.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 12.47 p.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Sitting suspended at 12.30 p.m. and resumed at 12.47 p.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Data Protection Regulations: Motion"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_10","debateType":"motion","bill":null,"showAs":"Combating Firearms Trafficking and other Firearms-Related Offences: Motion","counts":{"speechCount":15,"speakerCount":6},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_10","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robbie Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Teresa Costello","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Teresa-Costello.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Teresa-Costello.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael McDowell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","memberCode":"Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Kelleher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Kelleher.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Garret-Kelleher.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria McCormack","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-McCormack.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Maria-McCormack.S.2025-01-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robbie Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Robbie Gallagher  I move:  That Seanad \u00c9ireann approves the exercise by the State of the option or discretion under Protocol No. 21 on the position of the United Kingdom and Ireland in respect of the area of freedom, security and justice annexed to the Treaty on European Union and to the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, to take part in the adoption and application of the following proposed measure:  Proposal for a Directive of the European Parliament and of the Council on combating firearms trafficking and other firearms-related offences and amending Directive (EU) 2024\/1260 of the European Parliament and of the Council,  a copy of which was laid before Seanad \u00c9ireann on 18th March, 2026. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Justice, Home Affairs and Migration (Deputy Jim O'Callaghan)  I thank the Seanad for facilitating this motion today. I am here to address the Seanad with respect to Ireland's proposed opt-in to a new EU proposal for a directive on combating firearms trafficking and other firearms-related offences. Ireland has an option to opt in to individual proposals in the area of freedom, security and justice, as provided for in Article 3 of Protocol 21, annexe to the Treaty of the Functioning of the European Union. An Article 3 opt-in must be done within three months of publication. The advantage of Article 3 as opposed to Article 4 is that it gives us an opportunity to be party to and part of the negotiations, whereas Article 4 is an opt-in after it has been adopted, so we cannot have any say in respect of how the legal instrument develops.  Protocol 21 provides that Ireland has three months from the date a proposal is presented to the Council to notify the Presidency of its wish to take part in the negotiation, adoption and application of the measure. The exercise of this opt-in is subject to the approval of both Houses of the Oireachtas, with the three-month period for this proposal ending on 23 June 2026. We have brought this proposal to the Houses for consideration as swiftly as has been possible. Ireland can also accept a proposal at any time after it has been adopted - that is under Article 4 - but in such cases, Ireland will not have been in a position to vote on the final content of the proposal. It must also be noted that Ireland made a declaration appended to the Treaty of Lisbon of its intention to opt in to measures in the area of freedom, security and justice to the maximum extent it deems possible. Opting in to this proposal now represents an important opportunity for Ireland to reiterate our commitment to the importance of tackling illicit firearms, the trafficking of which poses a serious threat to both our own and our European neighbours' security and beyond.  The aim of this proposal is to create a common EU criminal law framework to combat the illicit trafficking, manufacture, possession and distribution of firearms. It has been proposed as a measure to counter the threat posed by organised crime, terrorism and emerging technologies, such as 3D-printed weapons. The European Commission's proposal will introduce common definitions of firearms offences and penalties, support stronger co-operation and improve the collection and use of data.  As we are all aware, illicit firearms pose a serious threat to the safety of all EU citizens. They enable a wide range of serious and organised crimes, including drug trafficking, robbery and gang violence. The issue has intensified due to geopolitical events in geographical proximity to the Union. There is a high risk that the surplus of weapons from ongoing conflicts, such as the one in Ukraine, will leak into illegal markets. An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na has discussed this matter with me. It is an issue we have to be constantly vigilant for.  Key challenges that have been identified and which further the facilitation of illicit firearms trafficking include the technological shifts creating the possibility of online dissemination of 3D printing blueprints and the large gap in data and reliable comprehensive statistics making it more challenging for law enforcement and policymakers to assess the scale of this threat. Despite this, firearms trafficking has been consistently identified as a major internal security threat to the EU. As well as the need for harmonisation of criminal standards being highlighted in the 2025 ProtectEU internal security strategy, there are significant differences in how firearms-related crimes are defined and punished across the member states. This lack of harmonisation hinders cross-border co-operation and complicates investigations.  The proposal I am bringing before the Seanad today seeks to target intentional acts involving illicit firearms and does not propose to change existing EU rules on the legal acquisition, possession and cross-border movement of legal firearms. The directive aims to protect EU citizens from the threat of illicit firearms by reducing the number of illegal weapons and related criminal activities. The proposal will harmonise definitions and penalties in respect of criminal offences, including the trafficking, manufacturing and possession of illicit firearms. Under the proposed directive, each member state will be obliged to establish a national firearms focal point to facilitate co-ordination and co-operation between the competent authorities. Harmonised EU-level action will also support broader security goals as firearms crimes are closely linked to terrorism, money laundering, drug trafficking and other types of organised crimes.  In Ireland, we already have robust legislation safeguarding the use of firearms through the Firearms Act 1925, although that Act could probably do with modernisation. However, this directive represents the first firearms trafficking measure at EU level. This legislation will remove the fragmentation that exists across the EU to provide for harmonisation. The views of the Attorney General have been sought on this directive. The advice has confirmed that there are no legal or constitutional obstacles to Ireland opting in to this directive. In light of this, I urge Members of the Seanad to support this proposed opt-in. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Teresa Costello","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Teresa-Costello.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Teresa-Costello.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Teresa Costello)  Before we proceed, I welcome members of the Roscommon Older People's Council executive, who are guests of Deputy Martin Daly and Senator Gareth Scahill, their local Senator. I will also pass on commiserations to Paddy Joe Burke on Roscommon's loss. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robbie Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Robbie Gallagher  Cuirim f\u00e1ilte roimh an Aire. I welcome our good friends from Roscommon to the House this afternoon. I promise that I will not mention the football match against Monaghan last weekend. Beidh l\u00e1 eile acu.  On behalf of Fianna F\u00e1il, I welcome and support the motion the Minister has put forward. The proposed firearms trafficking directive aims to introduce an EU-wide framework with common definitions for firearm offences and penalties, support stronger co-operation between member states and improve the collection and use of data. The proposal is intended to combat illicit firearms trafficking and other firearms-related offences across the EU.  While existing EU legislation regulates the lawful acquisition, possession, import and export of firearms, there is currently no EU-wide framework establishing common criminal offences and penalties for illegal firearms activity. The Commission noted that illicit firearms continue to pose a significant threat to public security, facilitating organised crime, drug trafficking, robbery and gang violence. Emerging risks include the spread of 3D printing technology, which can be used to manufacture firearms, and the potential diversion of weapons from conflicts near the EU into criminal markets.  As the Minister has outlined, the directive aims to harmonise criminal offences and penalties across member states, improve law enforcement and judicial co-operation, strengthen information sharing and address gaps in data collection relating to firearms crime. Key offences covered include the illicit trafficking and manufacturing of firearms, the possession of illicit firearms and ammunition, tampering with firearms markings, and the illegal creation, possession or dissemination of 3D printing blueprints for firearms. Member states will be required to provide for maximum penalties, ranging from at least two years for certain blueprint-related offences to at least eight years for firearms trafficking and illicit manufacture.  As the Minister has outlined, Ireland must decide by 23 June 2026 whether it will opt in and participate in the adoption and application of this directive. The proposal does not alter the existing EU rules governing lawful firearms ownership. It focuses exclusively on criminal offences involving illicit firearms and strengthening the EU's response to firearms trafficking and related criminal activity. As the Minister outlined, we need co-operation across all EU states in order to tackle the threats that exist today. I look forward to this directive moving forward swiftly. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael McDowell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","memberCode":"Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Michael McDowell  I welcome the Minister. In principle, I have no problem with the directive proposed in the European Parliament. We should do everything necessary to avoid trafficking in firearms, including trafficking in 3D-printed firearms. However, I have one question, which I hope the Minister will be able to answer. By opting in to the negotiation process, do we bind ourselves to opt in to the outcome, no matter what it is? That is an issue about which the House should be informed. Are we effectively opting in to something whose exact nature is not known? Can we legally opt out if we do not like the measures proposed? I fully accept that, in this case, that is an unlikely scenario but it could be the case nonetheless.  It should be put on the record that the directive is a very lengthy document. Directives should be circulated to all Members of the House in advance of motions of this kind. Apart from criminalising certain activities, it is proposed to create liabilities and penalties for legal persons, that is, companies. The proposed directive sets out aggravating circumstances, in respect of which penalties are to be agreed. There is a definition of what amounts to mitigating circumstances. There are provisions in relation to special investigative tools. I would like to know what that actually means. There is provision for limitation periods for the prosecution of offences. These are things that do not really apply in Ireland and yet, for some reason, it is thought that these have to be standardised across the European Union.  Then, it states \"that Member States establish jurisdiction for offences covered by the proposal and that they inform the Commission if they ... [wish] to extend this jurisdiction in specific cases where the offence is committed outside their territory.\" All of those issues are significant and they should be examined carefully by this House when we make a decision to opt in or not to opt in, whether it is on a preliminary basis to enable us to participate in negotiation or it is to opt in after the adoption of the measure.  I want to indicate my feeling that we are being presented with this motion days before the limit for opting in to the negotiation process is concerned and Members of this House have not been circulated with the text of the directive. The Minister has very limited time to describe what is involved but he has done so in fairly brief and concise form. When we look at the document, which I have in my hand now, it is very substantial. We have to reform our processes in these Houses. If this is what we are opting in to, it should be known to every Member of both Houses. They should have an opportunity to study it before being asked to simply rubber-stamp an opt-in or opt-out decision. They should be in a position to express views about the desirability of not merely the outline principle of the directive but every single aspect of the proposed directive, so that the wishes of the elected representatives of the Irish people can be fed into the process as to whether Ireland does or does not opt in to these types of measures on an informed, intelligent basis.  I am not opposing the Minister's motion but I am protesting that this is a substantial piece of work. To tell us, with a couple of days to go to either opt in or opt out without actually showing every Member what is involved and without going to the justice committee of the Houses and saying this is what is in issue and giving the Members of these Houses who sit on committees the opportunity to consider what is happening on a European level, is indicative of a very lax approach to the interaction of national parliaments of EU member states and the legislative process of the European Union itself. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Kelleher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Kelleher.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Garret-Kelleher.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Kelleher  Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an Aire. Mar at\u00e1 r\u00e1ite aige, is riachtanach an rud \u00e9 a bheith ag obair len\u00e1r gcomhghleacaithe san Aontas Eorpach i r\u00e9imse na coireachta idirn\u00e1isi\u00fanta. T\u00e1 s\u00e9 t\u00e1bhachtach go n-\u00fas\u00e1idf\u00ed na t\u00e9arma\u00ed c\u00e9anna i ndl\u00edthe na h\u00c9ireann is at\u00e1 \u00e1 h\u00fas\u00e1id ag baill st\u00e1it eile an Aontais Eorpaigh. On behalf of the Fine Gael group, I welcome the proposal to opt in to the directive on combating firearms trafficking and other firearms related offences. This is a progressive and important step that will enable us to achieve the four specific objectives outlined by the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, and Senator Gallagher. Having spent time many years ago working on a task force in the European Commission, which involved liaising closely with all of the then member states to ensure that channels of co-operation were in place to deal with possible external security and public health risks, I am very aware of the importance of co-ordination and co-operation among member states when it comes to security and justice. The concerns and threats that exist in the area of firearms trafficking are far better combated in conjunction with our international partners than on our own. The proposed amendment, COM\/2026(102), to the existing Directive 2024\/1260 is an important step in this regard and we in the Fine Gael Group fully support the proposal to opt in. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Teresa Costello","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Teresa-Costello.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Teresa-Costello.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Teresa Costello)  Before we move on to the next speaker, I welcome to the House Alan Del Rio and Aoife Larkin, who are guests of my colleague, Deputy Devlin. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria McCormack","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-McCormack.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Maria-McCormack.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Maria McCormack  Sinn F\u00e9in will oppose this motion on the basis that the Government has unnecessarily chosen to opt in on an Article 4 basis rather than Article 3. Sinn F\u00e9in supports robust measures to combat firearms trafficking - of course we do - but we will not support a broken-down legislative process that surrenders democratic scrutiny and strips future Governments of their legislative scrutiny and legislative sovereignty. Once again, the Government is rushing to opt in to an EU measure under Article 3 of Protocol 21 when a perfectly viable, flexible alternative exists under Article 4.  References to urgency here are completely baseless. Let us be completely clear about the difference. The Minister claims there is an urgent deadline next week. The deadline is entirely self-inflicted. An Article 3 opt-in forces to bind ourselves to this text right now during negotiation, whereas Article 4 allows Ireland to opt in at any point in the future. Why then do we need to do this? This issue is replicated across a plethora of legislative proposals the Minister has brought forward since his appointment. Why does this Government refuse to preserve Ireland's flexibility or facilitate meaningful scrutiny of his proposals? Why do Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael Ministers have such an appetite for tying the hands of future Irish Governments? We saw it with the EU asylum and migration pact and we are seeing it again today with the firearms trafficking directive. I think it is an attempt by Ministers to cede authority to Brussels so that when things go wrong down the line, they can look the Irish public in the eye and say, \"Our hands are tied; blame the European Union\", whereas what the Minister should be fostering is an open, transparent process where the public can see their political institutions openly considering and debating proposals.  This motion was added to the Seanad schedule on Monday evening. It is common for us to witness entire proposals being rushed through with sometimes virtually no scrutiny, especially in the case where the Minister extends provisions of Bills multiple times at various stages. Let us be very clear: if the Minister had a solid, robust justification setting out why an immediate Article 3 opt-in was necessary, he could have brought the proposal forward months ago. Instead, we are dealing with a manufactured urgency. This really undermines the democratic process. It is part of a wider, deeply concerning pattern of poor legislative practice, rushed Bills, guillotined debates and missed transposition deadlines.  It is the responsibility of this House to scrutinise proposals from the Minister. I put on the record my utter disgust at this repeated poor parliamentary practice. Sinn F\u00e9in will not support this motion. The Irish people have been losing respect for the democratic process in recent times. It is completely unacceptable that there has not been proper scrutiny here. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Justice, Home Affairs and Migration (Deputy Jim O'Callaghan)  I thank Senators for their contributions. I will point out an important statistic in respect of firearms in Ireland. Last year, 2025, and to date this year, there has not been one gun-related homicide in Ireland. That is a fairly extraordinary statistic. I am slightly reticent about stating it because once you say something like this, inevitably, something happens but for the past 18 months, there has not been one gun-related killing in Ireland. In fact, it could be longer than 18 months. That does not happen by accident. It happens because of the very effective and professional work of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na in seeking to confiscate illegally held weapons in Ireland, but also in seeking to prevent the importation of illicit weaponry into Ireland. I just want to make that point at the outset. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael McDowell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","memberCode":"Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Michael McDowell  It very nearly happened in Rathkeale last week. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jim O'Callaghan  It may have nearly happened but it did not happen, which is another thing. It is still a fairly remarkable statistic that we find ourselves in a situation where last year and this year to date, there has not been a gun-related homicide. It is something to be extremely welcomed.  Senator McDowell raised a question about what happens if we opt in under Article 3 and then, let us say, we go into negotiations and they do not work out for us and we do not want to be bound by it. That is provided for in paragraph 2 of Article 3 of Protocol 21, which states: \"If after a reasonable period of time a measure ... cannot be adopted with the United Kingdom or Ireland taking part, the Council may [still] adopt such measure\" without Ireland taking part.  The Council may still adopt it without Ireland taking part. What happens then is that the provisions of Article 2 of protocol 21 apply, which means we are not covered by it.  That brings me to the issue that was raised by Senator McCormack who complained about the fact that we are opting in under Article 3 as opposed to opting in under Article 4. As I have said previously, there is a difference between the two. If we opt in under Article 4, I come to the House once a directive has been agreed and adopted by the EU. All I can say to the House is we can either accept it or leave it and ask whether we want to opt in or not. The benefit of opting in under Article 3 is that we are opting into a proposal. As Senator McDowell mentioned, the large document he has with him is a proposal to amend Directive 2024\/1260. If we opt into that proposal, we can at least try to fashion and direct the final legal instrument which will be the directive. There is, therefore, a clear benefit to being a party to the negotiation of the directive as opposed to just standing at the end asking whether we take it or not. That is the reason we adopted in that way. How long do I have? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Teresa Costello","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Teresa-Costello.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Teresa-Costello.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Teresa Costello)  As long as you want. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jim O'Callaghan  There is a significant difference between the two articles.  Senator McDowell also referred to the lengthy document. Obviously, he was able to get it. I have it and I assume other Members are able to read the proposal when it comes to an Article 3 opt-in proposal or an Article 4 directive. If that is not the case, they should be informed that there is a substantive document behind it but that is something the Houses could work on to ensure that, when it comes to an opt-in, Senators and Deputies have the legal instrument it is proposed we opt in to or proposed to adopt in due course. That is information readily available but, notwithstanding that, I hear the point Senator McDowell is making.  We received legal advice on 27 May on the opt-in procedures. Time limits are imposed on us as well. We have a three-month period. The proposal is published and we then need to get legal advice in respect of it. The legal advice was received on 27 May and we then need time to consider the advice and bring the motion. There is always going to be a tight period if we proceed down the route of an Article 3 opt in but there are benefits to opting in. If we opted in under Article 4, Ireland would not have a vote on the final negotiations. It is to our advantage to have a vote on the final negotiations.  Senator McCormack seemed to suggest this was in some respect an undermining of sovereignty. This is Irish sovereignty. This is the House of the Irish Parliament, a House of the Oireachtas. We will be in the D\u00e1il later with this proposal. The elected Members of the Seanad and the D\u00e1il will decide whether we opt into this. There is no diminution or undermining of Irish sovereignty. This is Irish sovereignty and if we do not want to opt into it, we do not have to opt into it.  The Senator also sought to compare this to the migration pact. I must remind her that Sinn F\u00e9in voted for two of the directives in the European Parliament in the migration pact. It is now the mantra of Sinn F\u00e9in when it comes to the migration pact that we need to opt out and Europe is forcing these rules upon us. The UK tried to do the same. The UK decided it would go it alone on migration and now it needs the assistance of the European Union. The only way to resolve issues in terms of irregular or intermitted migration is through a co-ordinated European approach. It is a European-wide and global issue. It requires a European and global response. That is why the British wish to have more co-operation with the EU in respect of it. The migration pact went through the Houses of the Oireachtas and the elected representatives of the people of Ireland decided to vote for it and the elected representatives of both Houses voted for the International Protection Act 2026 on which I spent many days here, and that is democracy in operation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Teresa Costello","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Teresa-Costello.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Teresa-Costello.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Teresa Costello)  Is the motion agreed? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria McCormack","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-McCormack.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Maria-McCormack.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Maria McCormack  Not agreed. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Combating Firearms Trafficking and other Firearms-Related Offences: Motion"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_14","debateType":"billReport","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/3","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/3\/seanad\/4_sub","houseCode":"seanad","stage":"4_sub","isBillStage":false,"showAs":"Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na (Powers) Bill 2026: Report and Final Stages (Seanad)"}},"showAs":"Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na (Powers) Bill 2026: Report and Final Stages","counts":{"speechCount":84,"speakerCount":10},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_14","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael McDowell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","memberCode":"Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aubrey McCarthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Victor Boyhan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Noel O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Noel-O'Donovan.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Noel-O'Donovan.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanne Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pat Casey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robbie Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Before we commence, I remind Senators that they may only speak once on Report Stage except the proposer of an amendment who may reply to the discussion on the amendment. On Report Stage, each non-Government amendment must be seconded. The Minister is most welcome back to Seanad \u00c9ireann. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael McDowell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","memberCode":"Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Michael McDowell  I move amendment No. 1:  In page 9, to delete lines 25 to 30. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aubrey McCarthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Aubrey McCarthy  I second the amendment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael McDowell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","memberCode":"Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Michael McDowell  I express my deep regret that a guillotine has been proposed for this legislation. The number of amendments tabled for consideration could be dealt with quite comfortably within the time period allocated to it. It may be that the proposed guillotine will be academic. We have to strongly protest that the Government has become addicted to using the guillotine even today when it not necessary. There is no call for it, nor is there any suggestion that this is being unnecessarily delayed or the like.  The amendment relates proposes to delete lines 25 to 30 on page 9. It was tabled on the basis that the Minister indicated on Committee Stage that he understood concerns that I raised about the general aspect of the existing section 8, as drafted. I wish for the record of this House to show what those concerns are. Section 8 provides:  A member who has reasonable grounds to suspect that a person\u2014  (a) has committed, or is committing, an offence, or  (b) is in possession of a relevant article,  may require the person to provide his or her name, address and date of birth to the member.  It is not in any sense limited to a public place. It is not limited to circumstances in which a search has been undertaken. It is not limited as to what kind of offence that we are concerned with. The Bill is concerned with quite a broad spectrum of serious offences but here we are empowering any member of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na who comes into contact with any person anywhere in the State whom he or she has reason to suspect has committed any offence at any time in the past and saying that he or she can demand that person's name, address and date of birth. The Minister seemed to share my view that was an unnecessarily broad power to confer on any member of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. It means that virtually anybody who has committed an offence in the past can have his or her name, date of birth and address demanded by any member of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. For instance,if a garda suspects a person who has in the past committed an offence and has been convicted of it is abroad, on the streets or wherever else, this section is so lazily drafted that it gives a garda the right to stop that person and ask him or her, not merely his or her name, but also his or her current address and date of birth. It is an offence not to give it to the garda in those circumstances.  The reason that I proposed its deletion was that in its present form, it is unacceptable. I had hoped that the Minister would allow sufficient time between Committee Stage and Report Stage to address the unnecessarily wide scope of that particular provision. However, for some reason, this is very urgent. We, therefore, find ourselves in the position that the Minister has tendered no amendments on Report Stage. He has not reflected anything that happened on Committee Stage, which was guillotined. We now find ourselves in the position that we are being asked to say as a House that section 8, in its present state, is acceptable. It is not acceptable. The Minister may think that he might go to D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann having had more time to consider the matter and amend it there, but that will involve coming back here with the amended section. The proper procedure is that the Department should have allowed itself a good week or two to consider whether it wants to tighten up the incredibly lax aspects of this section and to do something about it.  While I am on the subject of these Garda powers, last Sunday, the deputy Garda commissioner, Paul Cleary, was the subject of a story in The Sunday Times saying that An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na is to launch a dedicated security service to counter the activities of hostile states, domestic and international terrorism and extremism in all its forms. The agency will be called An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na security service. The deputy commissioner is quoted as describing its establishment as \"significant in the force's history but necessary given the unfolding security landscape across Europe\". It is the case that under section 7 of the Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na Act 2005 that protecting the security of the State is already a function of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na.  I was a bit mystified as to why the establishment of a security service as a separate branch of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na should be announced by the deputy commissioner in circumstances such as this through a press release to a particular journalist. It occurs to me that if we are setting up a specialised security agency within An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na with specialised resources and the like, insofar as that is something new, there should have been, first, an announcement by the Minister for justice and, second, it should have been made to the Houses of the Oireachtas and brought before the justice committee of the Oireachtas to discuss what this new agency will actually do, how it will be different from what is going on at the moment and what precisely on the face of it we are involving ourselves with. The story as published stated, \"A detective chief superintendent has been appointed to lead the security service and its state-of-the-art technology\". We do not know what that is. Is it surveillance? I do not know. It also stated, \"The bureau will also serve as the counter-espionage agency, protecting the government, politicians, state agencies and the garda\u00ed themselves.\" This perhaps is slightly irrelevant to amendment No. 1 but we are giving in section 8 the right to any member of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, including these people, to stop anybody on the street who they believe has committed an offence in the past, no matter what the offence is, and to demand of them their name, address and date of birth.  Section 8 is so badly drafted they could be plain-clothes garda\u00ed or garda\u00ed who are part of this new security service. We are being asked to rush through consideration of this legislation but we are being deprived of a Minister standing in this House and informing the House about what The Sunday Times was so elaborately briefed on last Sunday, what difference this new agency will make and what the limitations and reporting requirements will be for it. When you look at what has happened in Britain, MI5 and MI6 are much less secret organisations than they used to be, or at least we think they are. I get worried that the democratic aspects of what we get up to, including considering section 8 in all its inadequacy, is railroaded through on a guillotine motion without people carefully considering what powers An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na really are going to have, how they will be deployed, who in an An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na will deploy them and in what circumstances. This is a blank cheque being given to stop anybody in the street who a member of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na has reason to believe or suspect has committed any offence - trivial, serious or whatever. This is the new power. It does not even just apply to stopping persons in the street. It applies to people anywhere that a garda can lawfully confront any person and ask them for their identification in the manner prescribed.  In that vein, I propose the deletion of this section until such time as the Minister comes up with an acceptable section. We cannot be asked to accept it is defective and too wide but that the Minister may go to the D\u00e1il and come up with a different section, or a different wording for the section, and if we pass it in this House in a guillotined debate, we will get around to reconsidering it later in the D\u00e1il. In all probability the D\u00e1il's consideration will also be guillotined, the way we are going. I get concerned about the legislative process that is leading to an inadequate section being rubber-stamped without a fair opportunity for people to tease out what it actually means. If the Minister is saying it is fine as it stands and he is not going to change it that is one issue, but he led the House to believe he would consider tightening it up and now there is no sign of any amendment to the Bill arising out of what happened on Committee Stage. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Justice, Home Affairs and Migration (Deputy Jim O'Callaghan)  I thank Senator McDowell for his amendment and his contribution. It is important to point out there are ten amendments on Report Stage and three hours for them. I am happy to be here for the three hours. It is also important to recall that for the Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na (Powers) Bill 2026, which I deliberately started in the Seanad, I was here for Second Stage on 4 February and Committee Stage on 14 May, 26 May and 10 June. I have given a lot of time to listening to what Senators have to say in respect of the legislation. The guillotine will not be necessary tonight because I know we will be able to finish ten amendments within three hours. It is unfair to say it has been rushed or railroaded when the Bill has been in the House since 4 February and this is my fifth appearance before the House in respect of the legislation.  Senator McDowell is correct in stating that he highlighted on Committee Stage a concern he had about section 8 of the Bill. His concern was that if the section was read in a particular way, it could imply that a member of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na had authority to stop someone and require them to give their name, address and date of birth, even if they were not lawfully present on the person's premises or elsewhere. At the time I indicated that I thought it was implicit within section 8 that this power could only be exercised in a public place or in a place where a member of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na is lawfully present. However, I did recognise that section 9 contains a not dissimilar power concerning stop and search for possession of a relevant article. The first part of it expressly limited the locations where that power could be exercised to a public place or where the Garda was otherwise lawfully present. I said I would look at it and I have asked officials to look at it. The Senator is correct in stating that I do not have an amendment before the Oireachtas today. Once I get the advice from officials and if I am not satisfied with it, I will require an amendment to be brought forward in the D\u00e1il for the purpose of amending section 8 so that it contains a similar restriction as in the introductory part of section 9.  However, amendment No. 1, which Senator McDowell has put forward today and we are considering, is not an amendment that seeks to amend section 8 by inserting the restrictions I just outlined, namely, that this is a power that can only be exercised by the Garda in a public place or where it is lawfully present. Instead, the amendment seeks to remove section 8 in its entirety. I cannot accept that because it is an important power An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na has.  In practical terms, if this section 8 was removed, it would mean that even where a garda has reasonable grounds to suspect criminal offending or the possession of a relevant article, there would be no statutory authority under Part 2 to require a person to provide basic identifying information. I do not consider that such an outcome would be appropriate or conducive to the effective investigation and prevention of crime. For that reason, I am not in a position to accept the amendment.  It is also the case that the provision can be read in such a way that this is not a power that is exercisable at large. It is expressly conditioned by the requirement that the member have reasonable grounds for the relevant suspicion before any such requirement may be made. It is this threshold safeguard that ensures the power is both necessary and appropriately constrained.  If it was the case that the provision was enacted as it is, and if a member of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na was unlawfully present in somebody's residence and sought to invoke section 8 by asking the person whom they reasonably suspected of committing an offence to provide his or her name, address and date of birth, I think it is fairly clear that the courts would not find any offence being committed in circumstances where the garda was unlawfully present when that power was invoked under section 8.  As I said to Senator McDowell on the last occasion, I will get advice from officials in respect of this and if I am not satisfied with that advice, I will bring forward an amendment in the D\u00e1il, and obviously we will come back to this House, to put in the limitation contained in section 9. However, my preliminary view, in advance of receiving that advice, is that it is fairly implicit in the provision that this is a power, as is the case with all Garda powers, that can only be exercised in circumstances where a garda is in a public place or lawfully present. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael McDowell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","memberCode":"Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Michael McDowell  Briefly, by way of reply, the problem is with the Minister saying that in his view, it is implicit that that is the case. That is not the way in which we should be legislating. Somebody on the street who is confronted by a garda, or somebody who is somewhere else where a garda is lawfully present, and the garda claims he suspects him of having committed any offence, at any time in the past, is not going to be able to search the D\u00e1il record. He will not be able to say the Minister seemed to think that this was confined to public places and, therefore, it is his right not to have these particulars demanded of him by a member of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na and his right to refrain from giving his name, address and date of birth on pain of committing a criminal offence means that he can safely tell the garda to get lost. That is not the way we do business. If we want to make it applicable to public places, we should say so. Print and ink are not so expensive that we cannot actually say what we mean and that we leave things implicit in circumstances such as this.  On another point, if the Minister considers section 9, he will see that it mentions the power to search somebody for a \"relevant article\", which is defined in section 7 as anything stolen or obtained unlawfully, explosive materials, controlled drugs, firearms and ammunition, any article the possession of which is in contravention of the Firearms Act, syringes where the person concerned might use them to cause injury to another person, computer programmes and computer passwords and encryption keys. Those are the things which the power of search relates to. Why, therefore, should not the definition of \"offence\" be similarly linked? If someone cannot be searched except on the suspicion of one of the \"relevant article\" offences in section 7, why can people be stopped and asked for their name, address and date of birth for any offence? It is not just simply the location; it is also the enormous breadth of the suggestion that if a member of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na believes that somebody has committed an offence as a historical fact, they can ask that person, when they see them in the street, for their name, address and date of birth, without limit.  The point about it being in a public place or that being implicit in it is not the only problem with section 8. It far too broadly and, I suggest, excessively widely drafted at the moment. It needs to be tightened up. It really is not correct. I am not going to call a vote on this because the Minister has said he will look at it again. However, it is not good enough for the people drafting the legislation to come up with a section of that kind and say that this or that is implicit in it. That power is given to a member of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. Persons against whom that power to identify themselves with their name, address and date of birth is deployed are not in a position to say, \"Well, this may be the statute law but this garda is asking me now, in the street or in some other public place where he is lawfully present, for this information and telling me that if I do not give it to him, I will be committing an offence and because I do not know whether the Minister's view of what is implied or explicit is correct, I cannot risk being arrested for an offence.\" When we are drafting legislation and considering the work of the draftsman in circumstances such as this, our job is to get it right and not to say, \"Seanad \u00c9ireann saw problems with this and the Minister said that if there was a problem, he would address it in a D\u00e1il amendment, rather than dealing with it in this House.\"  I refer to the widening functions of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na and the new security section, which has been established as Ireland's secret service, effectively. We have to be careful about the powers we give An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. I am in favour of the Garda having effective powers but not overweening powers. It was in that spirit that this amendment was offered to delete the section, because it is bad law. I put it to the Minister, if he wants to, either in this House on Report Stage, which, unfortunately, is now being guillotined, or in D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann, to come up with a proper section 8. Undoubtedly, some legislative measure incorporating some of the elements of section 8 is a sensible arrangement but this is not the way to do business. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael McDowell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","memberCode":"Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Michael McDowell  I move amendment No. 2:  In page 11, to delete lines 16 to 19. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Victor Boyhan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Victor Boyhan  I second the amendment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael McDowell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","memberCode":"Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Michael McDowell  Amendment No. 2 seeks to delete lines 16 to 19 on page 11 of the Bill, as amended on Committee Stage. Those lines refer to \"A person of whom a requirement under paragraph (c) of subsection (2) is made\". The paragraph in question - section 11(2)(c) of the Bill - provides that a garda may \"require the driver to be in or on or to accompany the vehicle, as may be appropriate, for so long as is necessary to complete the search\". Section 11(4) of the Bill, which we are proposing to delete, refers to \"the purposes of section 15 \", which, as we will discover when we read section 15, is another way of saying for the purposes of committing an offence. Section 15 provides that a person who \"shall be guilty of an offence\" will:  be liable\u2014  (i) on summary conviction, to a class A fine or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months, or to both, or  (ii) on conviction on indictment, to a fine not exceeding \u20ac30,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years, or to both.  The latter provision makes it an arrestable offence.  Let us read section 11(4) again:  A person of whom a requirement under paragraph (c) of subsection (2) is made shall, for the purposes of section 15 [in other words, to determine whether he or she has committed an offence], be considered to have failed to comply with that requirement where he or she, at any time while the requirement is in force, is not in, on or accompanying the vehicle in relation to which the requirement was made.  I need to get a clear indication of what is being talked about here. For the purposes of determining whether a person has failed to comply with a requirement, and for the purposes of criminalising them, they will be deemed \"to have failed to comply with that requirement where he or she, at any time while the requirement is in force [whatever that means] is not in, on or accompanying the vehicle in relation to which the requirement was made\". I have to say I do not understand that. I think I know what it is driving at, in that if a person walks away from the car, they are deemed to be failing to comply with the requirement to bring it somewhere so that it can be searched. I think I understand that, but that is not what this subsection says. It does not say that. It says that a person will be deemed \"to have failed to comply with that requirement\" if, at any time, they are not in the vehicle. That is bad drafting, again. It really is. If the Minister is bringing this to D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann, he should have another look at that because I would not like his Bill to be laughed out of court or D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann. If, at some stage, a person gets out of the car, they are deemed to have a committed a criminal offence if they have been required to drive the car to a place where it can be inspected. That cannot be right, and it is badly drafted.  I know what it is driving at. I think the draftsman in the Attorney General's office could come up with a better attempt to achieve what the common-sense view of it is probably intended to achieve. Let us be clear that this section actually says that the driver is required to be in or on or to accompany the vehicle, as may be appropriate, for so long as is necessary to complete the search. We are talking here about somebody who has had a requirement made of them. Such a person is deemed to have failed to have complied with it if, at any time while the requirement is made, he \"is not, in, on or accompanying the vehicle\". If he goes to use the bathroom in a pub near where the thing has happened, he has committed an offence because he has refused to comply with this requirement. It is not well drafted - that is all I would say. That is the reason I have proposed its removal in its present form. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jim O'Callaghan  Sometimes I feel I am back in the classroom having my homework corrected by the teacher. I rise with trepidation. Unlike in the classroom, I am able to answer back here. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Without fear of punishment, I am sure. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jim O'Callaghan  Can I try to explain it to Senators? Section 11 deals with additional provisions to search. Section 11(2) says, \"Where a member decides to search a vehicle under section 9 or 10 , the member may do one or more of the following\". This is a provision that arises when a member of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, exercising their reasonable suspicions available under sections 8  or 9 , decides that it is necessary to search a vehicle. Section 11(2)(c) says that one of the things the garda can do is, \"require the driver to be in or on or to accompany the vehicle, as may be appropriate, for so long as is necessary to complete the search\". If a garda wants to search a car, he can say to the person in, on or accompanying the car that they have to stay with the vehicle while the officer searches it. What happens if the person decides that they are heading off? It makes it extremely difficult for the garda to complete the search. What we are trying to do is put forward a provision that would make the failure to comply with that requirement an offence in those circumstances. That is what is set out in section 11(4), which refers to \"A person of whom a requirement under paragraph (c) of subsection (2) is made\". In other words, it relates to the person who is told to stay with the car, accompany the car or to be in or on the car. A person of whom such a requirement has been made, shall for the purposes of determining whether an offence has been committed - the offences are under section 15 - be considered to have failed to comply with that requirement, which, in effect, means they are committing an offence, \"where he or she at time while the requirement is in force, is not in, on or accompanying the vehicle in relation to which the requirement was made\". This provision is seeking to say that anyone who disobeys a direction - an order - from a garda that requires them to stay with the vehicle is committing an offence. That is the purpose of the provision.  Similar provisions already exist in respect of many offences on the Statute Book. Their purpose is to ensure that lawful searches can be carried out effectively and safely, and that there is clarity for both members of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na and members of the public as to what compliance with a lawful direction requires.  Notwithstanding what Senator McDowell views as the inelegance of the drafting, I am satisfied that subsection (4) is both necessary and proportionate, and I cannot support its deletion. As we know, the amendment would also delete a reference to section 15, which is the offences section. That applies only where a person obstructs a member of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na acting under the powers conferred by the legislation or fails to comply with a lawful requirement made under those powers. The offences provision is intended to support the effective operation of the statutory powers granted by the Oireachtas. Subsection (4) provides necessary clarity as to how compliance with this particular requirement is to be assessed.  The purpose is very clear. A garda is entitled to direct a person who is in charge of a vehicle, who is in it, who is on it or who is accompanying it to stay with a vehicle while a search is carried out. If he of she does not do that and breach the requirement set by the garda, he or she is committing an offence. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Noel O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Noel-O'Donovan.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Noel-O'Donovan.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Noel O'Donovan  I fully agree with the Minister. In terms of practical experience, if you have suspicion to search a vehicle, you may well be of the opinion an offence may be carried out. The person operating the vehicle may well leave the scene and that has been the case. The requirement for the person to stay on the scene is practical, common sense and necessary. Senator McDowell made the point that the person may leave the scene for a particular genuine reason. That is actually covered by the wording \"as may be appropriate\". From an operational sense, I am in agreement and have no doubt that Senator Gallagher will be in agreement as well that this is practical and required. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jim O'Callaghan  I thank Senator O'Donovan for his contribution and commend him on that. The requirement is imposed by the member of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na and the wording is \"require to driver\". The garda can permit somebody, to use Senator McDowell's example, to go if they need to go to the toilet. The garda can restrict or limit the requirement imposed on them. I again thank Senator O'Donovan for his helpful contribution in terms of the practicality of what happens when a search of a vehicle is ongoing. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael McDowell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","memberCode":"Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Michael McDowell  I said at the beginning that I know what the amendment is trying to achieve. If somebody does a runner, he or she is already caught by section 15 because he or she has failed to comply with section 11(2)(c) and is liable to be arrested if he or she does a runner. The particular need for section 11(4) is not apparent to me. If someone is required under section 11(2)(c) to \"be in or on or accompany the vehicle, as may be appropriate, for so long as necessary to complete the search\" and if he or she fails to do that, he or she already committed an offence under section 15. Section 11(4) adds nothing to that.  It is a significant enough point that if a member of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na decides to search a vehicle under sections 9 or 10, he or she can also, for instance, under section 11(2)(b), \"where the place at which the member finds the vehicle is, in the member's reasonable opinion, unsuitable for such search, take the vehicle or cause it to be taken or require the driver forthwith to take the vehicle to a specific place which the member considers suitable for such search\". The person could be asked to bring it to the yard at the back of a Garda station under that power. He or she is effectively under arrest if he or she is required to bring his or her car to some place that a member of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na tells him or her to bring it and he or she is obliged to do that forthwith.  I do not see how section 11(4) adds anything to the scope of section 15, which is the failure to comply with the requirement that is made of anybody. I do not see how the special provisions in section 11(4) are required. If someone has done a runner having been stopped, by doing that he or she has failed to comply with the garda's direction under section 11. He or she has committed an offence because he or she will have failed to be in or on or accompany the vehicle, as may be appropriate, for as long as is necessary to complete the search. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jim O'Callaghan  We will give consideration to it in light of what the Senator said. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Is the amendment being pressed? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael McDowell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","memberCode":"Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Michael McDowell  I press the amendment. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael McDowell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","memberCode":"Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Michael McDowell  I move amendment No. 3:  In page 11, to delete line 35 and substitute the following:  \u201c(b) the time, place and date of the search;\u201d. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Victor Boyhan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Victor Boyhan  I second the amendment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael McDowell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","memberCode":"Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Michael McDowell  This amendment is very simple and again refers to page 11. It relates to the record of a search under sections 9 and 10, which is required by section 13(2)(b), and amends it to include the time, place and date of the search. That would cover circumstances where people are brought to special custody suites. In any event, there is no reason the place of the search should not be recorded on PULSE, wherever it is made and in whatever circumstance. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jim O'Callaghan  I understand what the Senator wants to do is insert the word \"place\" in section 13(2)(b) so that will be recorded. A lot of information is being recorded already under section 13. It requires the Garda to keep a record that shall contain the following information; the name, address and date of birth of the person or the driver of the vehicle concerned; the time and date of the search the reason or reasons for the search; the provision of this Part under which the search was conducted; and the outcome of the search, including where a search results in the seizure of a thing suspected to be a relevant article or evidence of or relating to the commission or intended commission of an offence, the thing concerned. All of the crucial detail in respect of the search is provided. I do not see the relevance or usefulness of the place of the search.  We are getting the name and personal information in respect of the individual but regarding the place where the search took place, does it matter if it happened in one street in Monaghan town or another street in Monaghan town? I understand the intention behind the amendment, which is to ensure that an adequate record is maintained of the exercise of search powers but it is not necessary. Section 13 already provides for a statutory record to be made of the search, including the time and date on which it occurred. In addition, Garda operational records, such as PULSE, routinely captures further details relating to the exercise of search powers, including information regarding the location of an incident. That information is already provided for on PULSE.  The purpose of the section is to establish the key elements that must be recorded in law. It is neither necessary nor desirable to proscribe every operational detail on the face of primary legislation, where those matters are already addressed through Garda procedures and recording systems. I am satisfied that sufficient records of the exercise of these powers will be available for operational, supervisory and accountability purposes without the need for this additional statutory requirement. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael McDowell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","memberCode":"Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Michael McDowell  If the Minister could say, with his hand on his heart, that the PULSE record would not say it was on Grafton Street of wherever that I was searched, I would take what he is saying and think it was a very conservative position but maybe there was some sense in what he is saying. I believe that any record made by any member of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na of a stop and search will mention the place where it happened. The Minister may have forgotten the particular debate on Committee Stage that gave rise to the amendment was that some of the other Members of the House wanted there to be some data as to whether or not people were brought to custody suites for personal searches or not. The Minister will recall that Senator Ruane expressed a desire there should be some record of the number of times that people are brought to a custody suite under the powers in the Bill as opposed to cursory searches on the street.  She was concerned that those personal searches were a major intrusion, especially when carried out in a custody suite, on the liberty and freedom of movement of people who are searched. Effectively, they are detained and brought to a Garda station and subject to a search. I am not simply dealing with what she was concerned with, which was internal or cavity searches, but general searches involving strip searches, for instance, which are entirely justified in many circumstances and entirely necessary in limited circumstances.  If the Minister would tell me that the Commissioner of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na regards it as unduly onerous to say where a search took place, that is fine, but it is simply obstructive because that material will be on PULSE. If I am stopped on Grafton Street, the PULSE record will say that is what happened and that I was not somewhere else, for example, on O'Connell Street. I believe the record will state that and, therefore, I cannot see that there is any additional imposition on An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na in simply recording where searches took place, rather than just simply the fact that a search took place. In the end, people will look back on this debate and this amendment and they will say there is no need whatsoever to record the place where a search took place. There is none because the Seanad decided that it was not part of a proper record. Therefore, I do not accept the Minister's rejection of the amendment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jim O'Callaghan  Section 13(3) is relevant to this. Obviously there is a purpose behind keeping the record of this information. The reason is the person or driver who is the subject of a search may make a request in writing to a superintendent in the Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na district in which the search was carried out for a copy of the record. The purpose of section 13 is to enable the person who is searched to get information. The real information they are looking for is the reason or reasons for the search. They will be aware of where they were searched, of that there is no doubt. The location of a search is recorded on PULSE, so PULSE will identify where a person was stopped. I fail to see the legislative advantage to putting in primary legislation the place where a person is searched in circumstances where the objective of the provision is to enable a person to seek information. They will know where they were searched. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael McDowell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","memberCode":"Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Michael McDowell  I know it is slightly out of order but, with the permission of the Chair, I just want to say that I do not take subsections (3) and (4) as being the entire purpose of the record being created. It is important for other general reasons of accountability of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, regardless of whether or not the individual wants a record, that there is a proper record of the places of a search, the people who were searched and the outcomes of the search available to the Minister and the Commissioner. In those circumstances, given that the Minister has conceded that the place of a search will in fact be available, I do not see any reason it should not be put in. I ask the Minister to reconsider the matter before he gets to D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael McDowell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","memberCode":"Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Michael McDowell  I move amendment No. 4:  In page 12, between lines 9 and 10, to insert the following:   \"Report on the operation of search and seizures   14. (1) It shall be the duty of the Commissioner to furnish to the Minister at least once in every calendar year a report containing the following data in anonymised format:  (a) the total number of searches made under section 9;  (b) the total number of searches made under section 10;  (c) the total number of searches made under sections 9 and 10 where such searches did not result in the seizure of a relevant article of evidence relating to the commission of an offence;  (d) such other information as the Minister may prescribe by regulation in relation to the age, gender, race, nationality and social status (including membership of the traveller community) of persons searched or of the drivers of vehicles searched.  (2) The Minister shall as soon as practicable lay the report furnished to him under this section before each House of the Oireachtas.\u201d.  This amendment arises out of the extensive debate we have had on this matter. I do not propose to repeat it or to extend today's proceedings to go back over all of the reasons that were advanced by Members of the House in relation to this matter. The amendment is designed to enable the publication of statistics about stop and search by the Minister so as to assure the public that these kind of stop-and-search powers are being properly and impartially administered. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Victor Boyhan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Victor Boyhan  I second the amendment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jim O'Callaghan  I thank Senator McDowell for the amendment. It is important to state that the purpose of recording information in relation to a particular stop and search, as provided for in section 13, is to provide a clear and factual account of the incident, which may be relied upon by the person concerned. That needs to be emphasised. Section 13 is for the benefit of the person who is searched. It was not designed as a mechanism for statistical reporting on the operation of Garda powers generally. That is an issue of importance and which should be available, but that is not the purpose of section 13. While this amendment does not amend section 13 directly, it would repurpose information gathered in the course of individual stop-and-search encounters for a broader statistical reporting function, including the publication of demographic information relating to persons stopped and searched.  I recognise the importance of accountability and of understanding whether patterns of disproportionality exist. However, I am not convinced that a stop-and-search encounter is the appropriate setting in which to collect sensitive demographic information. Stop and search is intended to be a brief and focused interaction based on reasonable suspicion. Requiring members to collect information relating to race, nationality, Traveller identity or social status at that point raises practical and methodological concerns. It may lengthen what is intended to be a brief interaction and risks increasing tensions at what is already a sensitive moment. There may be more appropriate ways of collecting such information that ensures it is accurate, consistently recorded and capable of meaningful analysis. That is a valid point. If we think of the powers that are contained here for stop and search, they are powers that are going to be exercised based on reasonable suspicion and a decision that a member of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na is going to make immediately and spontaneously. If it is a requirement that information relating to the age, gender, race, nationality and social status of the persons concerned is collated, the search process is going to become inordinately complicated. If a garda is suspicious that somebody has committed or is committing an offence and stops that person and avails of the powers under this legislation, he or she will know that if they stop the person and search them for that reason, he or she will nearly have to go through a questionnaire with the person to find out his or her age, race, gender, nationality and social status. That would grossly undermine the purpose of the legislation and the provision.  I agree with Senator McDowell, and I am well aware that this information would be very useful to have in terms of trying to identify people who come in contact with the criminal justice system. However, I do not believe this is the mechanism to do it. This would inflict serious damage on the ability of members of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na to do their job spontaneously, based on decisions they make on the spur of the moment and based on their reasonable suspicion.  The Senator should be aware that the Government is currently considering how demographic information may be used appropriately across the criminal justice system, including through the development of a common identifier for individuals engaging with the criminal justice system. That work is ongoing. I believe it provides a more appropriate context in which to consider these complex issues than an amendment to the stop-and-search provisions of the Bill.  I also have reservations regarding subsection (1)(c) of the amendment. The fact that a search does not result in the seizure of a relevant article or evidence does not of itself indicate that the search was unjustified or improperly carried out. The statutory test is whether the member has reasonable grounds for suspicion at the time the power is exercised. Stop-and-search powers are preventative as well as investigative and, accordingly, seizure rates viewed in isolation may not necessarily provide a complete picture of the operation of these powers.  I also should point out that the programme for Government has committed to introducing a common identifier for individuals who interact with the criminal justice system. This will enable garda\u00ed, courts, prisons and probation records relating to the same individual to be connected, and it will improve the State's ability to assess the operation of criminal justice powers. The Department of justice has indicated that the preferred approach is to use the PPSN as that identifier and it awaits legal advice on that matter. The objective is to allow information to be linked across different parts of the justice system. This will avoid duplication and improve data quality. Similar approaches to record linkage already exist in other areas of the public sector, including health, although their application to the criminal justice system would be different. Importantly, the operation of a common identifier does not depend on the routine recording of ethnicity at the point of stop and search. Where demographic information is lawfully available through other datasets the identifier can facilitate broader statistical analysis without requiring ethnicity to be recorded during every encounter.  For those reasons, I think it would be inappropriate to include this amendment so that it would operate in respect of every time a garda invoked powers of stop and search. However, I do recognise that accumulation of this data is important and worthwhile, and there is work being done on the common identifier for that purpose. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Does anybody else wish to comment before Senator McDowell does a final round? No. Senator McDowell, please. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael McDowell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","memberCode":"Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Michael McDowell  Briefly, I want to reply, if I may, to the Minister's contribution. First, the information which a member of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na is obliged, under the Minister's text, to establish under section 13(2)(a), is \"the name, address and date of birth of the person or, as the case may be, the driver of the vehicle\". Those are three things which certainly are mandatory requirements of the report of a stop and search. If we are into questionnaires on the side of a street, those things have to be recorded and the reason for the search has to be recorded.  According to section 13(2)(e): \"the outcome of the search\" has to be recorded. The Minister mentioned the accumulation of information, in searches that yield nothing, would complicate matters. It is already required to be made. If somebody is stopped and searched, the Minister's text requires it to be said that there was a search, these were the reasons for the search, and this is the main address and age of the person involved. Section 8 states that a member of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na is entitled to \"require the person to provide his or her name, address and date of birth\". That provision is already in the Bill.  The additional entitlement that the amendment would make to allow the Minister, in his discretion, to include further material to be recorded does not complicate anything if the Minister decides that ethnicity, race or nationality are irrelevant. Senator Keogan, after Committee Stage, informed me that she was told by members of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na that these are recorded. Again, the Minister said that he would confirm to Senator Keogan whether this kind of material is recorded and we are having a Report Stage debate before that information was furnished to her, which I think is unfortunate to put it mildly.  As for the common identifier idea the Minister has mentioned based on the PPS or whatever else, just imagine it is the PPS number. The PPS is not recorded on the street. No reasonable person, and none of us, know our PPS numbers unless we have a robotic memory. If a Garda asked me for my PPS number I would have to tell him that I have no idea whatsoever. Maybe it is my VAT number or it is the same number. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Victor Boyhan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Victor Boyhan  The Senator is very lucky. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael McDowell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","memberCode":"Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Michael McDowell  I cannot recollect that. If I was a much younger barrister I might not have registered for VAT. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Victor Boyhan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Victor Boyhan  The Senator does not need it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael McDowell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","memberCode":"Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Michael McDowell  I do not know my PPS number. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  The Senator is drifting slightly off the topic of the amendment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael McDowell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","memberCode":"Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Michael McDowell  The point I am making is that the PPS number would only come into play where someone was convicted and then there is the common identifier that Michael McDowell of such and such a number was convicted of assault in Dundalk District Court and the same person was commonly identified, by that number, as having engaged in theft somewhere else. It would be very clear, and should be clear, to the Garda that a repeat offender - a person who was convicted of a number of things in different places - is identified clearly as being the same person and not just somebody with a similar name. That is not what this amendment set out to achieve. It is not setting out to achieve accuracy as to who is or who is not the subject of a number of encounters with the criminal justice system, which could only happen in the context of a conviction unless the Minister is going to introduce some system whereby people have to, on demand, when they are being searched, yield up their PPS number, which is nonsense in my view.  This comes down, in the end, to the wilful decision, I think, emanating from An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na that they do not want in the Republic of Ireland the same obligation to provide material or to record material, which is required under the Police and Criminal Evidence Act in the UK and equality legislation to be the subject of, number one, a record, and number two, accountability, in order to ensure that the law is fairly and impartially applied between different sections of society based on their status. I do not believe, and I do not think anybody thinks, that the forces of law and order north of the Border or on the island of Britain are impeded by making the kind of record which shows conclusively whether the use of stop and search powers is used disproportionately in respect of some groups in society.  I reiterate my point that on any view of effective policing, it is quite possible that particular stop and search incidents are going to weigh more heavily on people in certain categories. I have no doubt but that that will be the case and it does not necessarily suggest racism, ageism, misogyny or whatever words are thrown about in such circumstances. I have no doubt that statistical homogeneity is never going to be achieved in the way in which these powers are actually applied by any effective police force. What I do say is that it is important, if we are introducing the stop and search powers of this kind, that we do what I believe the European Convention on Human Rights, ECHR, would require of any responsible member state and what is done right across the various constituent parts of the United Kingdom to at least make it clear what age groups are being more or less affected by the deployment of these powers.  I believe there is no decent answer to a similar requirement existing in Irish police procedure. The Minister's reference to the programme for Government and the plan to have a common identifier for people who are in contact with An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na based on the PPS number have nothing to do with the proposition as to what kind of person is likely to be stopped at random on a street in Dublin. There is no connection between the two, and we will never connect people up with a common identifier unless they are convicted of an offence and unless there has been some court process. Nobody will be in a position, and garda\u00ed are not entitled, to ask for a common identifier of people whom they search. If such a power were to be conferred on the Garda, the accusations of Big Brother would be enormous. It would be said that the Garda was effectively keeping an eye on people whom garda\u00ed randomly stopped and searched and was able to connect them by a common identifier with other brushes they may or may not have had with the criminal justice system.  I regret to say I am not persuaded. On this occasion the Minister has made it very clear he does not intend putting into effect in Ireland what is required in Northern Ireland and Great Britain. Therefore, in the circumstances, I have to press the amendment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jim O'Callaghan  I will briefly respond if I can. Senator McDowell has raised some very interesting points. This is a complex and difficult issue. I do not believe that the appropriate mechanism to deal with this complex and difficult issue is in the legislation that is going through the Seanad today. What Senator McDowell wants to be able to get information on, through this legislation, is details pertaining to the nationality, the race and the social status of persons searched. The Senator referred to what is happening in the UK. I am nearly hesitant to move into this territory, but what I want to see happen as Minister for justice is that when a member of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na exercises powers that they have under section 8, section 9 or section 10, they do so completely blind to an individual's race, gender or nationality. The only basis for An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na to exercise these powers is if it has a reasonable suspicion that an offence is being committed. There is a lot to be gained from getting data as to whom the Garda is interacting with, and that is why I referred to the other work that is ongoing. What I would not like to see happen, however, is that if data is produced, in some respect this puts an obligation or pressure on members of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na to move outside the statutory scheme, which is that people should be stopped and searched only if there is a reasonable suspicion of an offence being committed. I would not like to see a situation where the Garda has data and says, \"Oh, look, a certain nationality is over-represented and another nationality is under-represented; we need to stop and search more of the latter.\" That is not what should happen. I have no doubt without getting any data that the overwhelming number of people who are stopped and searched, or who would be stopped and searched pursuant to the provisions here, will be men as opposed to women. I do not think it could be suggested that for gender equality reasons the Garda should seek to ensure that more women are stopped and searched.  It is a complicated issue. There is a huge benefit in policymakers, the public and the Garda having data on who is being interacted with when it comes to the criminal justice system, but I would be very hesitant about adding that obligation on when it comes to the stop-and-search powers. There may be other ways of doing surveys in respect of it, but the only reason a stop-and-search power should be used by a member of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na is that he or she has a reasonable suspicion that an offence is being committed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Is the amendment being----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael McDowell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","memberCode":"Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Michael McDowell  Very briefly, and I will finish on this----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  No, no, no. Senator----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael McDowell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","memberCode":"Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Michael McDowell  You have allowed the Minister in twice, a Chathaoirligh. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I know, but the rules of----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael McDowell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","memberCode":"Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Michael McDowell  I am sorry, but you have allowed him in twice, a Chathaoirligh. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I know. The only person allowed to speak twice is----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael McDowell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","memberCode":"Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Michael McDowell  Is me. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  -----is you. I have allowed it before. I can say that the Minister does not come back in, just to be helpful to the House, but the proposer gets to speak twice. Do you want to press the amendment, Senator? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael McDowell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","memberCode":"Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Michael McDowell  I am trying to be reasonable. All I am saying is that I hear what the Minister has said but the issue is not as described by him. It is not about whether men and women are unfairly discriminated in relation to these matters. I can see that some sections of the population are more likely to feature than others. I fully accept that proposition. What I am saying, however, is that Ireland is deliberately blinding itself to the reality of the deployment of these powers in similar jurisdictions in which racial minorities----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Are you pressing the amendment? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael McDowell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","memberCode":"Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Michael McDowell  -----are inordinately the subject of police stop-and-search powers. I fully agree with the Minister----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Senator, are you pressing the amendment? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael McDowell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","memberCode":"Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Michael McDowell  -----that a blind approach is what is required, but the simple fact is that that is the same in England as well. The Home Secretary in England would say exactly the same - \"I want no discrimination and I expect no discrimination\" - but the facts prove otherwise. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Senator, are you pressing the amendment? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael McDowell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","memberCode":"Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Michael McDowell  I am. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I welcome from Dexcom in Galway, Columba McGarvey, Adrian Furey and Orla Lovett, who are guests of Deputy Peter Roche. They are most welcome to Seanad \u00c9ireann. I thank them for being here.  I welcome the Minister back to the House. Amendments Nos. 5 and 10 are related and may be discussed together by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  I move amendment No. 5:  In page 14, between lines 18 and 19, to insert the following:  \u201c(2) Where an application for a search warrant relates to premises, devices or materials belonging to a journalist or publisher, the court shall, save in exceptional circumstances, conduct an inter partes hearing and invite the journalist or publisher to make submissions on whether journalistic privilege applies.\u201d. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanne Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joanne Collins  I second the amendment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  Amendments Nos. 5 and 10, as the Cathaoirleach has said, are linked. Many aspects of this Bill are to be welcomed, including the fact that it codifies Garda use of powers to stop and search, arrest, searches and seizures, and detention, and clarifies the law on stop and search. It is welcome that what was found in provisions in over a dozen pieces of legislation is now reduced to two clear powers to stop and search. The Commission on the Future of Policing in Ireland recommended in 2018 that in order to ensure the legitimacy of policing and the protection of the rights of all: \"There needs to be clarity and transparency about police powers and codes of practice as to how to exercise those powers. This should be based in legislation.\" It also recommended that \"legislation defining police powers of arrest, search and detention should be codified, with statutory codes of practice.\"  While these changes are welcome, the delay in bringing them forward is notable. It is now eight years since the commission on the future of policing made its recommendations, however, the part of this Bill Sinn F\u00e9in has significant issues with is its failure to explicitly recognise the right of journalists to protect sources. This Bill fails to explicitly recognise the right of journalists to refuse to reveal confidential sources. The Minister needs to address the extensive concerns about the implications of this Bill for the ability of journalists to do their job, including holding those in power to account. It should be amended to ensure there is a court hearing to determine whether journalistic privilege applies before a warrant can be granted, as is the case in many other jurisdictions, including in the North.  The District Court should be empowered to take journalistic privilege into account when considering a Garda application for a search warrant, rather than after the application has been granted. The Bill needs to explicitly recognise the rights of journalists to protect sources, which is arguably required to bring the law into line with the 2023 decision in Emmett Corcoran v . the Attorney General where the Supreme Court judge, Mr. Justice Gerard Hogan, stated that: \"The general protection of sources is integral to a free press.\" He added that without constitutional protection of the media\u2019s right to protect sources, journalists \"cannot be reasonably be expected to discharge their functions of educating public opinion and holding government to account in the manner expressly provided for in article 40.6.1 of the Constitution.\u201d Sinn F\u00e9in has tabled a number of amendments to address these flaws in the Bill.  Amendment No. 5 strengthens the essential protections for journalists and publishers and ensures that when An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na seeks a search warrant for journalistic materials, the court must, except in truly exceptional circumstances, hold an inter partes hearing. That means the journalist or publisher can make submissions on whether journalistic privilege applies. This safeguard is not about obstructing investigations; it is about defending press freedom, preventing fishing expeditions and upholding the public's right to know. By requiring judicial scrutiny and participation from those affected, we reinforce transparency, proportionality and the vital independence of the media in a democratic society.  Amendment No. 10 provides journalists and publishers with a vital safeguard, which is rapid High Court review of any warrant or order affecting them. It ensures decisions are examined promptly, recognising the fundamental importance of protecting journalistic sources and preventing undue interference with the media's democratic role. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jim O'Callaghan  I thank Senator Andrews for his amendment and his contribution. Senator Andrews's amendment and the subsequent amendments relate to Part 3 of the Bill, which concerns search of premises. Senator Andrews has correctly emphasised the importance of our legal process giving recognition to journalistic privilege. The reason I am bringing forward amendments in respect of Part 3 is specifically because of the Supreme Court judgment to which Senator Andrews referred, namely, Corcoran. Corcoran, as I indicated previously, was a very important decision. It involved a journalist being subjected to a search warrant application by An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. It was heard in the District Court. The search warrant was for the search of the offices of the journalist and his own residence. The District Court was not informed at the time of the search warrant application that the respondent to the application was a journalist. Mr. Corcoran went the whole way to the Supreme Court and was successful in his challenge to the search warrant that was imposed against him. The reason An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na had sought the search warrant and access to his digital communications - his computer - was because there had been a very serious assault and attack in a certain part of the country and the Garda believed there was valuable and useful information and evidence on Mr. Corcoran's laptop. Ultimately, however, journalistic privilege prevailed.  During the course of the Supreme Court judgment, Mr. Justice Hogan, to whom Senator Andrews referred, indicated that section 10 of the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1997 was very defective because it did not provide any mechanism for the court to be informed about the fact that an application for a search warrant may impinge upon or affect journalistic privilege. Mr. Justice Hogan and the rest of the Supreme Court said that section 10, which is the provision that deals with the application for a search warrant, required urgent legislative intervention by the Oireachtas. That is why I am bringing forward what is in Part 3 of this piece of legislation. It is to ensure the concerns expressed by the Supreme Court are responded to, and that the legislation seeking search warrants is more robust, and also recognises and reflects the importance of privilege that may arise. I believe that the provisions contained in the Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na (Powers) Bill do so.  Senator Andrews's amendment refers to the necessity for an inter partes hearing, but it is important at the outset to set out what is the procedure set out in Part 3 of the legislation. For instance, looking at section 17, it governs the standard provision in respect of an application for a search warrant.  It sets out when a member of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na may apply for a search warrant. Section 17(5) states:  Where an applicant [who is a member of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na] suspects that privileged material may be present at the proposed place of search, or contained in, or accessible from, any electronic device or information system that may be present at that place, his or her application shall include such information as is known to him or her relating to -  (a) the nature of the privileged material concerned, and  (b) any other matter relating to the privileged material ...  To begin with, therefore, there is now an express statutory obligation on any garda who is applying to the District Court for a search warrant to inform the court of the fact that he or she believes there may be privileged information pursuant to the search. That could be legal professional privilege, it could be journalistic privilege or it could be some other public interest privilege. That is expressly provided for.  Then there are further provisions contained within section 19, which provides for the search of electronic device or information system under search warrant. As the last subsection of section 19 provides that \"subject to the condition that a privilege screening or digital forensic examination of the data concerned may be conducted\", there is a recognition that there is a process of screening information for any privileged information.  However, the real substantive provisions that relate to Senator Andrews's amendment are contained in sections 24 and 25 of the Bill. Section 24 sets out a process for the determination as to privilege. If there is going to be a complaint made by an individual who is the subject of a search warrant that information or a computer was seized that contains material governed by privilege, this is set out in subsections (1) and (2) of section 24. Without reading out all the procedures, there is a mechanism contained within this for a hearing before the High Court where individuals can set out what they view as the reasons as to why the search warrant or the material should not be inspected because it is covered by journalistic privilege. Obviously we could not have a situation where somebody is just able to say you cannot search that because it is legal privilege or that it is journalistic privilege. There has to be some assessment of it. Just because somebody is a lawyer it does not mean that their phone is protected from search by the Garda. Privileged material on the phone is protected but the Garda are entitled to probe that. Similarly, just because a person says he or she is a journalist does not mean that the search comes to the end.  I indicated, I think on Committee Stage, that I felt this proposed amendment to section 18 was not necessary and I remain of that view. The Bill already provides for inter partes adjudication before privileged material may be examined, but preserves the ability for initial warrant applications to proceed ex parte where operationally necessary. As I mentioned already, sections 24 and 25 of the Bill create a structured mechanism for the resolution of privileged disputes. Where material is apprehended to be privileged and an authorised member seeks to access it for evidential purposes, an application must be made to the High Court. That application proceeds on notice to the relevant person who is entitled to identify the material claimed to be privileged and make submissions to the court. The court may also issue interim preservation directions and appoint an independent and suitably qualified person to examine the material and report back. Unless and until the court determines that the material is not privileged, it cannot be examined by investigators. Where privilege is upheld the material must be returned or deleted. That distinction reflects the approach endorsed in the Corcoran case, as I just indicated, namely, that the essential safeguard is prior independent review before access to the material itself, rather than requiring every procedural step to occur on notice. For that reason I cannot accept the amendment.  Senator Andrews may have been concerned that the term \"journalistic privilege\" is not contained within the Bill. There are reasons for that. It is hard to get a specific definition \"journalistic privilege\". It is recognised in Irish law and it is respected in Irish law. The decision of Corcoran emphasises that. As a drafter, I thought it was more appropriate to have a reference to privilege in general. There can be an assessment on whether it is legal professional privilege or journalistic privilege or other types of privilege that may arise. There is a statutory procedure in place that enables that submission or that contention of privilege to be assessed and determined on an inter partes basis. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Before I come to any Senators to reply, I welcome the guests of the Garda College from the United States of America, the National Executive Institute of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. They are most welcome to Seanad \u00c9ireann and I am sure the Minister and our colleagues here in the Seanad welcome you as well. I hope you enjoy your stay in Ireland and thank you for all the work that you do in your collaboration with our Garda College.  No Senators are indicating to reply. Is the Senator pressing the amendment? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  Yes. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Amendments Nos. 6 and 8 are related and may be discussed together by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  I move amendment No. 6:  In page 14, between lines 18 and 19, to insert the following:  \u201c(2) In considering an application for a search warrant, the District Court may consider whether journalistic privilege applies and shall refuse the application unless satisfied that the requirements of section 21 (Protection of Journalistic Sources) have been met\u201d. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanne Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joanne Collins  I second the amendment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  Amendment No. 6 empowers the District Court to actively consider journalistic privilege when assessing search warrant applications. It ensures warrants are refused unless strict requirements are met. This protects press freedom, prevents overreach, and reinforces the essential democratic role of independent journalism.  Amendment No. 8 strengthens the protection of journalistic sources by allowing disclosure only through a court order and only where strictly necessary and proportionate. It requires judges to weigh constitutional rights, European Court of Human Rights jurisprudence, and domestic case law, ensuring press freedom is upheld while balancing genuine public interest needs. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jim O'Callaghan  I thank Senator Andrews for his amendment. I think this was also discussed on Committee Stage. The proposed insertion of section 21 on which this amendment relies is not necessary as the Bill already provides appropriate safeguards in relation to journalistic privilege. As I mentioned earlier, the application for a search warrant to the District Court requires members of the Garda to notify the court of any issues related to privilege as is known to them. This ensures that if there are concerns regarding privilege the Garda must bring them to the judge's attention and this allows the judge to make informed decisions and draw appropriate inferences about the potential privileged material without placing the entire responsibility on the Garda. There is an application in the District Court and the district judge has to be satisfied with the application. If the Garda are aware that there may be privileged material involved in the search, that must be brought to the attention of the district judge. It is a matter then for the district judge to strike a balance between safeguarding privilege and ensuring that the judicial process can move forward. For that reason I cannot accept the amendment. As I said earlier, I believe that the provisions contained within this are sufficient to respond to the concerns that were highlighted by the Supreme Court in the case of Corcoran, and which I am giving effect to in this statutory provision.  Senator Andrews has also moved forward amendment No. 8. Are we discussing this also? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pat Casey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Pat Casey)  Yes. We are discussing amendments Nos. 6 and 8 together. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jim O'Callaghan  Amendment No. 8 is sufficiently covered by the provisions of the Bill already. The Bill significantly strengthens the protection of journalistic privilege. It introduces a judicially supervised process governing potentially privileged material. Applications are assessed on a case-by-case basis with the court empowered to seek additional information and to grant, limit or refuse access depending on what is necessary. I believe very categorically that the statutory provision in place will ensure that if a member of the Garda, the Irish police force, is going to the District Court looking for a search warrant, and if the garda is aware that this may involve privileged material, there is a statutory obligation on the garda to bring that to the attention of the court. The court will very much take that into account. Even if the search warrant is granted and information is then procured by An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, they cannot look at it until such time as an order is made. If an application is made by the affected party claiming that this involves privilege there is a process for it to be determined before a High Court judge. It is very thorough. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pat Casey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Pat Casey)  I welcome law enforcement officers from the United States who are guests of the Cathaoirleach. I hope they enjoy their visit. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  I move amendment No.7:  In page 16, between lines 5 and 6, to insert the following:  \u201c(2) Where a journalist or publisher asserts journalistic privilege in respect of material stored on an electronic device, no requirement to provide access credentials shall apply until a court has determined whether the privilege applies.\u201d. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanne Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joanne Collins  I second the amendment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  Amendment No. 7 ensures the District Court can assess whether journalistic privilege applies before granting a search warrant. It requires the court to refuse any application unless strict safeguards are met protecting press freedom and preventing disproportionate intrusion into journalists\u2019 work. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jim O'Callaghan  I thank Senator Andrews for his amendment. Under section 19(1)(f) of the Bill there is an ability within a search warrant for it to be expressed in such a way as to require any person who appears to the authorised member to have access to, or to have under his or her power or control, the information held in any electronic device or that can be accessed by it to provide them with the passwords.  The amendment put forward by Senator Andrews and his colleagues is in respect of that. It says that where journalists or a publisher asserts journalistic privilege in respect of materials stored on an electronic device no requirement to provide access credentials, which is what is provided for in section 19(1)(f), shall apply until a court has determined whether the privilege applies. The Bill therefore places the issue of compelled access under judicial supervision from the outset because an order under section 19(1)(f) will only be made where the judge is satisfied that such powers are necessary and proportionate having regard to the sworn information provided by the applicant. The Bill therefore places the issue of compelled access under judicial supervision. This approach adopted reflects the recommendations of the Law Reform Commission which recognised that persons executing search warrants may require powers to obtain assistance from persons present, including assistance in accessing digital material. Similar provisions already exist in Irish law under the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act. The Bill, therefore, is not creating a novel or unrestricted power but rather modernises and structures existing investigative powers in light of the realities of encrypted digital evidence.  Importantly, the Bill also responds directly to concerns expressed in another important Supreme Court decision, DPP v. Quirke, and, indeed, in Corcoran v. The Commissioner, with regard to the seizure and access of a device. It expressly allows a judge to limit the scope of any warrant concerning electronic devices and to attach conditions where necessary. The reason for that is that in the Quirke decision Mr. Justice Charleton said that an electronic device is really a separate space that requires a specific and separate authorisation.  On the amendment, an additional provision stating that a journalist or publisher has no obligation to provide access credentials once privilege has been asserted would be counterproductive. The statutory framework already assumes that access to a device may be required in order to identify, preserve and securely process potentially privileged materials before a court can determine whether privilege applies. In the context of encrypted devices it may be impossible to conduct privileged screening unless the device can be accessed or preserved. A blanket exception would therefore risk frustrating the operation of the carefully balanced safeguards contained in the Bill. Therefore I cannot accept the amendment. Privilege will be preserved and protected and there is the mechanism whereby it can be assessed but what cannot happen is somebody says \u201cprivilege\u201d and therefore you cannot look at it or seek to access it. It is at a further stage for the content of the privilege to be assessed and determined by the court. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  I move amendment No. 8:  In page 17, between lines 16 and 17, to insert the following:   \u201cProtection of Journalistic Sources   21. (1) A journalist or publisher shall not be required to disclose the identity of a confidential source except by order of a court.  (2) A court shall only make such an order where\u2014  (a) it is strictly necessary and proportionate for the administration of justice, and  (b) the public interest in disclosure substantially outweighs the public interest in the protection of journalistic sources.  (3) In determining an application under this section, the court shall have regard to\u2014  (a) Article 40.6.1 of the Constitution,  (b) the jurisprudence of the European Court of Human Rights, and  (c) relevant domestic case law.\u201d. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanne Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joanne Collins  I second the amendment. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  I move amendment No. 9:  In page 19, between lines 21 and 22, to insert the following:   \u201cSafeguards for Retention, Access and Use of Digital Data   24. (1) Any digital data seized, captured or otherwise obtained under a search warrant issued pursuant to this Act shall be retained only for the minimum period strictly necessary for the investigation of the offence to which the warrant relates.  (2) Digital data that is not, or is no longer, relevant to the investigation or prosecution of an offence shall be securely deleted without delay.  (3) The Garda Commissioner shall ensure that all digital data retained under this Act is subject to:  (a) strict access controls;  (b) comprehensive audit logging;  (c) encryption at rest and in transit; and  (d) periodic review to confirm ongoing necessity and proportionality.  (4) Digital data obtained under this Act shall not be used for any purpose other than the investigation of the offence specified in the warrant, unless authorised by a further warrant issued by a judge of the High Court.  (5) Where digital data includes information relating to third parties not suspected of any offence, such information shall not be examined, retained or used except where strictly necessary and proportionate and expressly authorised by a judge.  (6) Nothing in this section shall be construed as permitting the retention or use of digital data in a manner inconsistent with the Constitution, the European Convention on Human Rights, or the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union.\u201d. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanne Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joanne Collins  I second the amendment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  Amendment No. 9 relates to safeguards for retention, access and use of digital data. The amendment introduces essential safeguards for how garda\u00ed retain and handle digital data seized under warrant. The amendment ensures data is kept only for the minimum time necessary, securely deleted when irrelevant and protected through strict access controls, encryption and audit logs. It requires periodic reviews to confirm ongoing necessity and prevent mission creep.  Crucially, the data will only be used for the specific investigation named in the warrant unless a High Court judge authorises any broader use. Where third party information is involved additional judicial approval and strict proportionality apply. Overall these safeguards reinforce constitutional and human rights standards in the digital search context. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jim O'Callaghan  I thank Senator Andrews for his amendment. In responding to it I must rely upon what is in section 23 of the Bill because it deals with very many of the concerns expressed by Senator Andrews in his amendment.  Section 23 is entitled \"Treatment of material seized under search warrant\". Section 23(1) provides that anyone who \"seizes material, shall ensure that following its removal from the place of search the material is stored and a record is made of the material\". There is also a requirement that when it is no longer needed the material must \"be returned to the person who disclosed the material\", and then, others who have it must ensure that the material is deleted, without delay, and the person from whom it was seized must be informed at the time of its deletion.  Section 23 sets out the rules for handling seized material. It requires confidential treatment and the return of deleted material. As I have said, it is consistent with the decision of the CJEU in the Landeck case on police access to data stored on mobile phones during criminal investigations. That court was of the view that there was a need for post-access notification once this would not prejudice the investigation. Such notification is not required per subsection (4) where doing so would compromise national security, prejudice a criminal investigation or criminal proceedings or would jeopardise the safety of a person.  As I said, I believe that section 23 addresses the concern set out in the amendment. However, even if the amendment was accepted it would not be possible for the Garda to ensure that data is encrypted at rest and transit as the seized data may itself be encrypted. Members of the Garda are obliged to log and retain digital evidence seized in the format in which it was captured under warrant. Encryption runs contrary to current evidence and best practice of maintaining the technical integrity of seized data should it be challenged in court proceedings. Therefore, I cannot accept this amendment. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  I move amendment No. 10:  In page 22, between lines 19 and 20, to insert the following:   \u201cExpedited High Court Review   26. (1) A journalist or publisher affected by a warrant or order under this Act may apply to the High Court for an expedited review of the decision.  (2) The High Court shall determine such applications as soon as practicable, having regard to the importance of protecting journalistic sources.\u201d. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanne Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joanne Collins  I second the amendment. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Bill received for final consideration."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pat Casey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Pat Casey)  When is it proposed to take the next Stage? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robbie Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Robbie Gallagher  Now. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pat Casey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Pat Casey)  Is that agreed? Agreed. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question, \"That the Bill do now pass\u201d, put and agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pat Casey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Pat Casey)  I thank everyone. I thank the Minister for his presence in the Chamber again today. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionra\u00ed ar 3.43 p.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 5.04 p.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Sitting suspended at 3.43 p.m. and resumed at 5.04 p.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na (Powers) Bill 2026: Report and Final Stages"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_21","debateType":"statement","bill":null,"showAs":"Irish Aids Day 2026: Statements","counts":{"speechCount":11,"speakerCount":7},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_21","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Laura Harmon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Clonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","memberCode":"Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Teresa Costello","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Teresa-Costello.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Teresa-Costello.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria McCormack","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-McCormack.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Maria-McCormack.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Kieran O'Donnell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Kieran-O'Donnell.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Kieran-O'Donnell.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Laura Harmon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Laura Harmon)  We have statements to mark Irish AIDS Day which took place two days ago. I welcome the guests in the Gallery. We have a number of guests who are working in this area, namely, Ois\u00edn O'Reilly, CEO of Outhouse in Dublin, and Davy Quinlivan from HIV Ireland. I also welcome Eddie McGuinness and Karl Hayden, who are campaigners and also represent Labour LGBTQ+. We have a number of other guests in the Gallery as well. They are very welcome. I welcome the Minister for Health and I invite her to make her opening remarks. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Health (Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill)  I recognise and welcome our guests to the Seanad, even though it is not my place to welcome them to the Seanad. The Acting Chair will forgive me. Perhaps I should say they are welcome to the Oireachtas. They are so very welcome. It is wonderful to see them and to have the opportunity to have this debate and to recognise their very important work in relation to that.  I also recognise my officials who are so deeply committed to this area. Mary Horgan, our Chief Medical Officer, is here in support of this debate today and to contribute to the debate. Fiona Mansergh is an assistant principal in the rare diseases and sexual health policy area. Behind them is Bearach Reynolds, a specialist registrar in the office of the Chief Medical Officer. We are trying to bring the highest levels of both medicine and policy to this debate. I hope that is a measure of respect for the debate and of the guests as well.  I welcome the opportunity to address this House today with statements on HIV and AIDS in Ireland. I recognise the Chair's contribution to making this debate happen. Today, we gather in solidarity, remembrance and hope. It is really important to take a moment to remember our friends who have passed away either from HIV and related illnesses or with HIV and related illnesses, which has become very different over time. I have a friend in particular in mind, as we all might. We come together to honour those we have lost to HIV and AIDS and to stand with those living with HIV and to renew our collective commitment to ending HIV transmission and the stigma it continues to effect in too many lives.  Irish AIDS Day has always been about people: individuals, families, friends, healthcare workers, activists, researchers and community organisations who have shaped Ireland's response to HIV over the past four decades. It is also about recognising the courage of those who spoke out when fear and misinformation were widespread - what a brave and honourable thing to do \u2013 and whose honourable advocacy transformed public understanding and policy. I pay tribute to them.  Today, we mark something important. Ireland and the world have made remarkable progress. We are now living at a time that would have seemed impossible during the darkest years of the AIDS epidemic. Mary Horgan, Chief Medical Officer, pointed out to me how effective modern treatment is. It is extraordinarily effective. It is an extraordinary transformation. People diagnosed early and receiving treatment can expect to live long, healthy lives. Evolving antiretroviral treatments have revolutionised survivor rates and the quality of life for people living with HIV since the mid-1990s.  Undetectable equals untransmittable, or U=U. It is an important catchphrase to remember. When someone living with HIV can keep their viral load at undetectable levels through treatment it will not be transmitted to their partners. Needless to say, it also maintains their own health. The importance of prevention, early detection and treatment of HIV cannot be overstated. Those measures reduce the numbers infected and the risk of lasting harm and increase the chances of living a full life with HIV.  Our new national sexual health strategy, published last year, reaffirms Ireland's commitment to building the services and supports that we need. Work has commenced on a HIV action plan with, most importantly, the inclusion of advocacy groups and people with lived experience. I hope they will find the process to be one that is rewarding and delivers for the future. The plan will encompass prevention, access to testing, diagnosis and treatment, wider supports for people living with HIV and continued work to reduce stigma.  HIV testing is now more accessible than ever. People should get tested. It is available through 23 public STI clinics, a home STI testing service, antenatal and emergency departments, student health services, GP surgeries, family planning clinics and community partners. I want to highlight the success of the HSE's home STI testing service, which includes HIV. In the pilot phase of that initiative we are supported by Sl\u00e1intecare innovation funding 2021. The service was so successful that wider roll-out was accelerated and a scheme was launched nationwide in October 2022. Home testing is hugely important. It has added approximately 30% additional capacity to our systems. The home STI testing service allows people to test in the comfort and privacy of their own homes.  It reaches those who might be reluctant to visit an STI clinic in person. People experiencing reactive results are then referred onwards for further testing or treatment, as appropriate. I am greatly encouraged by the scheme\u2019s high uptake, which indicates that we are collectively more aware and, crucially, more active in relation to managing our sexual health.  Prevention is another key aspect of tackling HIV. Of course, we have the national condom distribution service established in 2015, providing free condoms through STI clinics and NGOs working with key groups. Since 2019, free condoms have been available through participating college campuses, and we are now including them with orders from the home STI testing scheme. The service is expanding to include GP and pharmacy consulting groups, thereby reaching more people.  Our PrEP, or pre-exposure prophylaxis, service has also been expanded in recent years, with additional staff recruited in late 2025, additional funding for medication in 2026 and more GPs involved in delivering the service. What does that mean? There were 17 GPs involved in delivering the service in 2023 but that is up to 45 in 2026. There has been an increase, and it needs to continue at that pace. We know that demand for PrEP is increasing in line with our growing population. We are trying to find different ways of meeting that need and it is a need that I acknowledge and recognise. I know there are innovative models, for example, a hybrid online model in St. James's Hospital, which is a very helpful development. Professor Mary Horgan and I are determined to expand the role of pharmacy in prescribing PrEP. That is something I would like to look at as we move to the next phase of the community pharmacy agreement. It is a much more natural thing to do and would be a much more appropriate, community-based service. We are actively looking to see how we might do that. It was Professor Horgan's suggestion that we do it so I am grateful to her for that. Models of care for sexual health and HIV are being drafted, and options for more effective delivery of the PrEP service are being examined.  Irish AIDS Day is an opportunity to assess where we stand at present. Unfortunately, HIV remains a significant public health issue here and abroad. Hundreds of people continue to receive a new HIV diagnosis in Ireland each year, with 41% of people being diagnosed late. Late diagnosis means that people have lived with HIV for years, possibly without knowing it, risking their own health and with the risk of onward transmission. Late diagnosis is not just about access to services; it can be about stigma. We know that HIV does not affect communities equally. Young people, those in parts of the world with high HIV prevalence, the LGBTQI+ community and other key groups can have a higher risk and often encounter additional barriers. Inequalities require targeted responses from health services but also from society as a whole. Information and education are still challenges. Some people are still not fully aware that effective HIV treatment prevents transmission so awareness campaigns and public education are crucial.  I take this opportunity to thank the HSE and its community partners, the Poz Vibe Tribe, which might be the best name ever, for their recent work to counter HIV stigma. The You, Me and HIV campaign focuses on a really simple message: people living with HIV who are also established on effective treatment cannot pass HIV to their partners. That campaign has been really successful, and I pay tribute to them for that. It has been possible because people living with HIV have chosen to lead, advocate and care. Let us honour that commitment by committing to building an Ireland for the future where nobody is afraid to get tested, and nobody experiences discrimination because of their HIV status. Irish AIDS Day is a key opportunity to plan towards an Ireland where prevention, treatment and support are available to everyone who needs them.  I thank all Members for being here and for facilitating the debate. I thank them for their commitment and for helping to create a future free from HIV stigma and onward transmission. We hope to be able to look back at HIV, not as an ongoing public health challenge, but as a chapter successfully brought to an end. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Laura Harmon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Laura Harmon)  We thank the Minister for her commitment to the issue and for her engagement today in the Seanad, which is much appreciated. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Maria Byrne  I thank the Minister for coming to the House to discuss this all-important issue. I also thank officials for their commitment. I welcome the guests in the Visitors Gallery.  It is a very important discussion. As the Minister said in her opening statement, we remember those who are no longer with us and who died of HIV and AIDS, and we remember the whole stigma piece. I acknowledge the work that the Minister and her Department have done in bringing in the community care piece with the pharmacies and doctors. That has encouraged awareness. People should not be afraid to be tested, and that is a strong message.  Many of us know people who have died in the past, and we understand the fear factor and the stigma. Even some of their family members were running away from the issue. The fact that we are having an open conversation is a good starting point. HIV Remembrance Day was two days ago. A lot has happened. I compliment everybody who has been involved in highlighting this issue through the years, and those who were not afraid to come forward to discuss and share their own experiences or to highlight issues of remembering people they knew who have passed away.  The fact that the You, Me and HIV campaign focuses on a simple message has ensured it is a strong message and it is something we need to build on. It is about encouraging people. There are still some people who are afraid to come forward or to get tested. It is about giving them the confidence and courage to do that. The fact is that once people are on the treatment, they cannot pass it on to other people, whether a partner or otherwise. That is an important message, but sometimes those messages do not resonate or land with people. They are really important messages that we in the Oireachtas, community pharmacists and doctors need to get across to people. When people come in, they should be assured that help is at hand. That is a strong message.  In the past, the Department has rolled out things like free condoms, advice and leaflets. At that stage, as I said, some people were still running away from it. However, there is now so much emphasis on this and support for people. That is very important. \u201cSupport\u201d is a very important word.  Some people still receive a diagnosis each year. The Minister said that 41% of people are diagnosed late, which is quite a high number. That goes back to the fear factor when people were afraid to come forward. A lot has happened since then. The Minister and her Department are working to build on what has happened and where we can go from there. I compliment all involved, but I also remember those who have gone before us. Many families suffered loss, and they did not know what was happening at the time. It is important to think of those families when we are having this debate. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Clonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","memberCode":"Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Tom Clonan  I thank the Minister for coming to the House. I welcome our guests to the Visitors Gallery. When I saw this on the schedule, I decided to come along and speak to the issue of AIDS. Sadly, I will be 60 in August. I did my leaving certificate in 1984. That summer, and in 1985, all of my friends and I went to London, as young guys from Finglas. We went on the ferry and took the train down. I remember it stopped in Rugby at about 3 a.m. and some eejit got off the train and wandered off into the night. That summer, we all began to discover ourselves. Over that summer and the summer of 1986, two of my friends came out. They were able to do that in London in a way they could not in Ireland.  In 1986, I went to New York on a J1 visa. When I was working in New York, I met friends from school and from Finglas, some of whom were able to come out because it was a different environment and they could live an authentic, valid life. In 1987, Prince released the song \"Sign o' the Times\", which begins \"In France, a skinny man died of a big disease\". We began to hear of AIDS as a phenomenon. I remember the advertisements on Channel 4 and BBC that had pictures of cliffs crumbling and collapsing down into the sea. We did not really understand the threat, particularly in Ireland because of the intersectional stigma around being gay, which was to engage in what were described in the laws as \"homosexual acts\"; these were criminal offences. Therefore, we had this awful situation where people who were getting ill could not come out.  One of my friends was named Patrick. I grew up on Ballygall Avenue and he lived in Finglas Park around the corner. We used to play kerbs with footballs outside our houses. He was in London that summer of 1985 and he never came home. He passed away and none of us knew, again, because of that appalling stigma attached to it. The fact is that AIDS can be treated now. I pay tribute to all the people who work with antiretroviral drugs and deal with the community. I want to say this. I remember at the time when this was dominating all the major news platforms, there was a distinction drawn between people who were gay and then people who were infected through blood transfusions or who were haemophiliacs or whatever. There was kind of a hierarchy of suffering and more, if you like, recognition was given to people from outside the LGBTQI community.  A very close member of my family is a medical doctor. She was stabbed with an infected needle in the emergency department in St. James's Hospital in the early 1990s. We went through a period of waiting for the tests to come back to see whether she had she been infected. I understand the fear at that time before there were proper treatments. It was a uniquely cruel disease for those who contracted it because they could see in their own community what was happening and they had watched their friends with the appalling symptoms of sarcoma and struggling for breath. It was a very tough disease.  I want to conclude by saying that I came in this morning and passed by the front of Agriculture House. I saw the rainbow flags up there. I know there is a tiny minority of voices who question why we should put the rainbow colours around the Houses of the Oireachtas. I am delighted to see it because I remember the time when it was hidden. It was stigmatised. It was something that, thankfully, people like David Norris fought so hard to bring out of the framing of it being a criminal act. In celebrating where we are in relation to AIDS, we should not link the two things together too clumsily but we should celebrate our LGBTIQ community and all of our brothers and sisters. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  I thank Senator Clonan. I now call our next speaker, Senator Costello from Fianna F\u00e1il. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Teresa Costello","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Teresa-Costello.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Teresa-Costello.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Teresa Costello  I thank the Minister for being here today. She generously gives a lot of her time to the Seanad and it is very much appreciated. I welcome the opportunity to speak on Irish AIDS Day. Following on from many of the other speakers, I want to remember those we lost and reiterate that we stand with those who are living with HIV and that we are renewing our commitment to ending new HIV transmissions and tackling the stigma. I have listened to people speaking, especially Senator Clonan. The thing about shame is that I hate the word \"shame\". Shame is a killer and embarrassment is a killer. When people are made to feel shameful or embarrassed and they do not reach out and cannot be who they are, it is so wrong. I hope we have moved on. I think we have moved on to a certain extent. I have very little time for anybody who puts shame on people for being who they are. I really have no time for that. We have said today that for too long, HIV and AIDS were surrounded by fear and silence. People's real stories never got to be told because of that and the silence kind of spoke. It is good that modern treatment has transformed this and that people can live long and healthy lives.  I want to touch on the latest figures I could get when I was doing a little bit of research, which show that in 2024, 239 people received a first-time HIV diagnosis and 41% were receiving late-stage treatment. Even though it is late-stage treatment, this treatment is still effective. I would not have thought this because we are always told about early diagnosis. Early diagnosis can prevent it being passed on, so early diagnosis is always best, but late-stage diagnosis is hopeful as well. What particularly jumped out at me was that the highest percentage of people who received late-stage diagnoses were over the age of 50, which would lean into the generation who were reared on shame, fear and embarrassment. That is what really frustrates me because it does not have to be like that. I met with the HIV Prevention Alliance whose representatives spoke about women being affected. I met a lady who had HIV. She only got diagnosed over the age of 50, which, again, in my lack of education, did not occur to me. There is definitely more of an education piece because I remember being younger and there was so much education and awareness. Things kind of went quiet. I have seen the odd interview on \u201cThe Late Late Show\u201d and there are some amazing advocates, but the whole message, rightly so, is that if it is undetectable, it is untransmissible. That is so important.  I am glad that we talk about stigma and shame, and that we are not allowing it and are pushing back against it. Progressive Ministers, like the Minister, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, do so much work on that. I know she and her team are working tirelessly. We have all the tools in Ireland. We have PrEP, we have condoms and we have access to testing, but we have to be timely and people have to be able to feel like they can access it without being judged. I do not think anybody should be afraid, whatever their status, to seek care or speak about their life. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  I thank the Senator. Our next speaker is Sinn F\u00e9in's Senator McCormack. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria McCormack","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-McCormack.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Maria-McCormack.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Maria McCormack  I am really delighted to have the opportunity to speak on this today. I have to say that every time Senator Clonan speaks, he educates me. He speaks extremely well in the way he articulates things. I just want to take a moment to say that. He was talking about his friend Patrick in 1985 and how much we have come on from then. He mentioned that the song \"Sign o' the Times\" came out in 1987, which was the year I was born. It just tells us how much we have come on but how hard that journey has been for people. We have heard the stories and we have heard about the stigma. There still so much of it there, but our job in this House is to make sure we continue every day to keep raising awareness about the progress, treatment, education and stigma.  We must also make sure that everything is brought to light in this Chamber, as was done yesterday evening for the new domestic violence register, and we must leave nothing under the stone any more.  I welcome our visitors to the Gallery. It is great to have them there. Irish AIDS Day is an important opportunity to reflect on the progress that has been made while also recognising the work that still lies ahead. Thanks to significant advances in medicine and treatment, HIV is no longer the diagnosis it once was. People living with HIV can now live long, healthy and fulfilling lives. However, although science has advanced, stigma and discrimination have not disappeared. This is the point that I really wanted to focus on. Too many people still feel unable to speak openly about their diagnosis because of fear of judgment and misunderstanding. No one should have to carry that burden. We must continue to challenge the misinformation that exists, because it does exist, and ensure accurate education and awareness throughout our communities.  As a Senator from Laois, I am particularly conscious of the importance of ensuring equal access to healthcare services for people living in rural and regional communities. Whether someone lives in Portlaoise, Portarlington, Mountmellick, Abbeyleix or a smaller village, they should have the same access to testing, prevention services and specialist support services as someone living up here in the city. Access to free, confidential and easily accessible HIV testing is essential. Early diagnosis saves lives, improves outcomes and reduces onward transmission. We therefore have to make sure everything available in urban areas is also available regionally.  We must continue to support and expand access to preventative measures such as PrEP. The Minister talked about that and I was delighted to hear that she is looking for community pharmacy engagement in that regard. Anything we can do to work prophylactically and prevent an issue from arising is important. Ensuring services are available to everyone who needs them, regardless of where they live, is vital.  Sinn F\u00e9in believes healthcare should always be based on need. That is very important. It should not be based on one's eircode, income or background, or whether one has private health insurance; it should be based on need. No one should be disadvantaged because of any of the reasons I have mentioned.  I acknowledge the dedicated work of healthcare professionals, community organisations, advocates and volunteers who support people living with HIV every day and who continue to challenge stigma and promote inclusion. Ireland has committed to ending new HIV transmissions and eliminating HIV-related stigma. These are ambitious but very achievable goals. We need to own this in the Chamber to make sure we do our part to help. Let us recommit ourselves to building an Ireland that is compassionate, informed and inclusive, an Ireland where every person living with HIV is treated with dignity, respect and equality. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Laura Harmon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Laura Harmon  I welcome the Minister of State and acknowledge the presence earlier of the Minister for Health and her officials for statements on Irish AIDS Day. I was really pleased to put in a request to have this discussed in the Seanad. I thank the Seanad Office for facilitating this. I had met representatives of the HIV Prevention Alliance in relation to this matter and they asked me what I could do. One thing was to have a debate and statements because raising awareness is important. It is important that those of all parties and none speak out on this issue and on sexual health in general in this country.  Today is an opportunity to remember those we have lost, to stand with those living with a HIV diagnosis and to reflect on the progress Ireland has made and the challenges that still remain. For many, HIV is associated with the fear and uncertainty of the 1980s and 1990s, which many Senators have spoken about so eloquently today. We remember those years and the people who were lost during the AIDS epidemic. We remember the partners, families, friends and carers who stood by their loved ones through extraordinary hardship, often at a time when stigma and silence compounded their suffering.  I want to remember some people in particular who led out the response in Ireland at the time, including Christopher Robson, Bill Foley, Ciaran McKinney and Mick Quinlan, among many others. I cannot name all of them. I also acknowledge our former colleague David Norris, with whom, unfortunately, I did not get to serve, and all the work he did over many decades in raising awareness and breaking down barriers and stigma in Ireland and across the world. We also remember those whose stories never got told and the families, partners and friends who supported loved ones through all the difficult years \u2013 those who remained invisible throughout. I think it is important that we bring their plight to light now that we have the opportunity.  The story of HIV in Ireland is about activism, resilience and compassion. It did not happen by accident. Progress does not happen by accident and progress can be rolled back as well. We need to remember that always. We need to keep pushing forward with progress. It happened because people living with HIV, healthcare workers, campaigners, community organisations, ordinary people, families and friends stood up. They refused to accept silence, stigma and exclusion. I thank them for their courage and for continuing in this regard today.  Thanks to extraordinary advances in medicine, HIV is no longer the diagnosis it once was. People living with HIV now, when diagnosed early and even with a later diagnosis if they have access to treatment, can live long, healthy and full lives. We know that people who are undetectable cannot transmit HIV sexually, nor can they pass it on during pregnancy. This message has been said already today, but we can never say it enough: U=U, or undetectable equals untransmittable. This has transformed lives and it should continue to do so. It is one of the greatest public health success stories of our time. We have to acknowledge that. It is a huge public health and medical success story. Science has advanced, but stigma has not completely disappeared. Education remains so important. Public understanding needs to keep pace.  I acknowledge the visitors in the Gallery today. I acknowledge organisations such as Outhouse, HIV Ireland, Teach Solais, Dundalk Outcomers, LINQ, Gay Project in Cork and sexual health centres all across the country for the work that they do. I also acknowledge people like Ger Philpott, who has documented and preserved the experiences of our own LGBTQ+ community at a time when many stories went untold. I thank advocates such as Robbie Lawlor and Enda McGrattan, better known as Veda Lady, who continue their work through Poz Vibe. Through advocacy and public engagement, they have created visibility and community for people living with HIV in this country and are breaking down the stigma and barriers. I also want to acknowledge the great Panti, whose voice has done so much to advance conversations around dignity and inclusion in Ireland in relation to this matter.  Looking to the future, I welcome the comments from the Minister for Health on progress. I particularly welcome the opt-out HIV testing pilots under way at St. James's Hospital and other locations across the country. The initiative needs to be rolled out nationally.  We need greater awareness when it comes to HIV among women. There is a huge misconception about who HIV affects. It can affect anybody in society and does not discriminate. Women make up a growing cohort of people living with HIV in Ireland and this absolutely needs to be publicised. We need more public awareness in relation to this because many women, unfortunately, may not perceive themselves to be at risk when in reality the opposite is the case.  We need to continue to support public awareness campaigns and a health-led approach. I would welcome any update from the Minister of State on the implementation of our sexual health strategy, efforts to reduce late diagnosis, the future of opt-out testing and the steps being taken to tackle HIV-related stigma across our healthcare system and wider society.  My colleague Deputy Maria Sherlock, the D\u00e1il Labour Party spokesperson on health, will be hosting a briefing in July in the audiovisual room in relation to this issue. We need to commit ourselves to continuing to challenge public attitudes, promote awareness and improve public policy. We need to keep progressing and speaking about this matter as much as we can whenever we get the opportunity as public representatives. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Kieran O'Donnell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Kieran-O'Donnell.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Kieran-O'Donnell.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Kieran O'Donnell)  I thank the Members for their genuine and thoughtful contributions. I join with the Senators and welcome the advocacy groups in the Public Gallery, including HIV Ireland, Outreach and LGBT campaigners. There are probably many others so forgive me if I do not namecheck everyone, but I acknowledge the work they do. I welcome them to Leinster House and to the Seanad.  Today the House had an opportunity to reflect on HIV and AIDS in Ireland. I thank everyone who has participated in this discussion. The Minister, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, gave the opening statement and listened to many of the contributions. We have officials here as well. It is something we take seriously and we are proactively working on it. The Minister will look at the rest of the debate when it has concluded. I take the opportunity to thank our community organisations, healthcare professionals, advocates, volunteers and most importantly the people living with HIV, whose experience and voices continue to guide and strengthen our response. Today has been a day of reflection, learning and remembrance, but it has also been a day of renewal. Throughout our discussions one message has emerged again and again - Ireland has come a long way. People have acknowledged that in the Chamber. There was a time when a HIV diagnosis was viewed with great fear, a fear that in many cases outweighed facts but was nevertheless a huge fear. There was a time when people living with HIV felt isolated, invisible and unsupported. Thanks to decades of advocacy, scientific advances and community leadership Ireland has made progress. However, as was acknowledged, we also have a lot more to do.  Today people living with HIV can access highly effective treatment. They can live long and healthy lives. They can work, raise families, pursue their ambitions and contribute to every part of Irish society. Effective treatment means HIV can no longer be passed on to partners where viral suppression is achieved. That was alluded to by other speakers. That is one of the greatest public health success stories of our generation, as Senator Harmon also alluded to. Yet, we have also heard today why our work is not finished. Too many people fear testing, or encounter barriers in accessing services and are still diagnosed late. Too many people continue to encounter stigma, misinformation and discrimination. Too many people face barriers when seeking prevention, treatment or support. Given our rapidly growing population, services can come under pressure. We acknowledge that. Our challenges are about access, but also equality, inclusion, dignity and respect.  The good news is that we are not starting from scratch. Ireland has a clear national roadmap for improving HIV awareness, testing, diagnostics, treatment and supports for people living with HIV. Our new national sexual health strategy and the international commitments to which Ireland is signatory commit to eliminating HIV transmission. We have community organisations and healthcare professionals who have decades of experience in preventing HIV, and in supporting and treating those living with HIV. We have inspiring community leaders living with HIV whose resilience and advocacy continue to inspire change for the better. Knowledge matters and accurate information saves lives. Every conversation, radio or TV advert or website that challenges the misinformation helps move us forward and compassion does matter. Stigma thrives in silence and judgment. It is overcome through understanding, empathy and human connection. Every discussion that encourages testing may make a bigger difference than we know.  Many thanks are again due to the Poz Vibe Tribe and the HSE team that made the you, me and HIV campaign such a success. Awareness is improving and this work builds on that completed by previous generations. We celebrate that today. Action matters, and strategies, commitments and ambitions become realities when they are supported by work, time, investment and partnership. Hope also matters. The history of HIV up to the 1990s was too often one of tragedy. Now, it is also a story of extraordinary courage and progress. It is a story of communities who refuse to be ignored, of scientists who refused to give up and of communities, activities and healthcare professionals who cared for those living with HIV and campaigned for more effective prevention strategies. It is also the story of people living with HIV, who transformed our understanding through their determination and openness.  As we leave here today, let us carry forward the spirit of Irish AIDS Day. Let us continue challenging stigma, supporting those living with HIV and working to make testing, prevention, diagnosis, treatment and wider supports more available. Let us continue working together towards a future where new HIV transmissions are eliminated and where nobody is defined by their diagnosis. The Ireland we see today would not have been possible without people who believed change was possible long before it became reality. A mission has always been at the heart of progress. We have listened carefully to everything raised in the House today and I thank all Members for their continued engagement on this important matter. These discussions will inform our HIV action plan, on which work has commenced. I look forward, with my colleagues in the Department of Health and the HSE, to engaging further on our action plan in the months to come. I thank those in the Public Gallery for helping to build a healthier, fairer and more compassionate Ireland. I thank the Members for the contributions and look forward to further engagement on this very important matter. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionra\u00ed ar 5.47 p.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 6.19 p.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Sitting suspended at 5.47 p.m. and resumed at 6.19 p.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Irish Aids Day 2026: Statements"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_22","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Teachtaireachta\u00ed \u00f3n D\u00e1il - Messages from D\u00e1il ","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_22","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann has passed the Criminal Justice (International Cooperation on Electronic Evidence and Other Matters) Bill 2026 on 17 June 2026, to which the agreement of Seanad \u00c9ireann is desired.  D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann has passed the Guardianship of Infants and Child Care (Amendment) Bill 2026, changed from the Guardianship of Infants (Amendment) Bill 2026, on 17 June 2026, to which the agreement of Seanad \u00c9ireann is desired. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Teachtaireachta\u00ed \u00f3n D\u00e1il - Messages from D\u00e1il"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_23","debateType":"debate","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/56","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/56\/seanad\/2","houseCode":"seanad","stage":"2","isBillStage":true,"showAs":"Prohibition of Lethal Autonomous Weapons Systems Bill 2026: Second Stage (Seanad)"}},"showAs":"Prohibition of Lethal Autonomous Weapons Systems Bill 2026: Second Stage","counts":{"speechCount":24,"speakerCount":12},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_23","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Frances Black","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Frances-Black.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Frances-Black.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fiona O'Loughlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Clonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","memberCode":"Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Laura Harmon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patricia Stephenson","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Ardagh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Ardagh. The combined opening speeches of the proposer and seconder shall not exceed 16 minutes. All other Senators have six minutes, the Minister of State has 15 minutes and the proposer has five minutes in which to reply. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alice-Mary Higgins  I move: \"That the Bill be now read a Second Time.\" "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I welcome to the Gallery guests of one of our ushers, Damian Kelly: M\u00edche\u00e1l Smith, treasurer of F\u00f3rsa; Julia Flood, vice president of F\u00f3rsa; and the Dublin City branch executive of F\u00f3rsa. They are most welcome to Seanad \u00c9ireann and I thank them for being here. Anois, an Seanad\u00f3ir Higgins. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alice-Mary Higgins  I am sharing time at 11 minutes and five minutes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Is that agreed? Agreed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alice-Mary Higgins  I welcome the Minister of State to the House. I also thank the experts who have worked with me on this legislation, and Stephen Reid from my own office for his work on its development.  One of the moments when I was proudest of Ireland was being there when Ireland hosted the negotiations which led to a global ban on cluster munitions. Cluster munitions were land mines from the sky, weapons which by their very nature hurt unknown targets at unknown times in the future, were unpredictable in their effect, and were outside the realms of international humanitarian law because their consequences were unknown. What we did know was that their consequences were very often at the expense of civilians and children. Ireland led the discussions that led to the global ban on these horrendous weapons. That is why when people talk about Ireland stepping up and playing our role, I always think that Ireland plays its role, and the role it has played has been in peace and disarmament. That is our outsized role, and it is the greatest contribution a country makes in terms of reduction of casualties and of death.  We are now at a moment when not only are we seeing a very worrying rollback, with countries leaving the land mine and cluster munition treaties and returning to the use of these unconscionable weapons, but we are also seeing horrendous new weapons which are dealing death at a scale and with mechanisms which were unimaginable in the past. Lethal autonomous weapons have been described by the Secretary-General of the United Nations, Ant\u00f3nio Guterres, as morally repugnant. Pope Leo, in his encyclical, spoke about the horror of entrusting an algorithm with the power to select who is worthy or not without bearing responsibility for that judgment, and about the damage that does to human possibilities and political responsibility. He highlighted that artificial intelligence does not remove the intrinsic inhumanity of the conflict. In fact, it brings about conflict more quickly, renders it more impersonal, lowers the threshold for resorting to violence, transforms defence into threat prediction and reduces victims to data.  The legislation I am proposing now comes in a context. I will dive a little bit more into autonomous weapons in a moment. Not only are we seeing horrific weapons being used with consequence around the world, but we are seeing a turbo-powered development of such weapons. As they are coming about, they are being experimented with. They are being used in Iraq and Iran, and on the population of Gaza. They are being trialled and tested on the most vulnerable people in the world. This is being done in the context of more money being pushed towards defence than we have seen in almost 60 years, and more money being poured into AI. The two drivers - the AI industry and the defence industry - are having vast amounts of money thrown at them in the kind of \"move fast and break things\" epic we have seen in tech in the past. In this instance, what is getting broken is humanity and people, and indeed our international humanitarian law and those ideas that there are standards even within war.  As a sense of how these are used, I could use quotes about Project Maven, which was initially developed by the Pentagon and is now available in all contexts. It can identify approximately 1,000 targeting decisions in an hour. It can choose and dismiss targets in the battlefield. One director, the vice admiral, has said that America wants to use it for everything, not just targeting. I know my colleague will speak more on Israel, where we have seen the Gospel - a machine-learning algorithm - used to produce potential targets so fast that Israeli officers described it as a \"mass-assassination factory\". A similar system, Lavender, at one point identified 37,000 potential targets. When those in Israeli intelligence have spoken about how it felt about to use these weapons, they have downplayed the role of human oversight. They have said that they would invest 20 seconds for every target at this stage and do dozens of them every day. They have spoken of how they had zero added value as humans, apart from as a stamp of approval. I know my colleague will speak of other systems, including Hello Daddy, where by their nature, the targets effectively are children.  These weapons are being used and trialled, and there is a giddiness in their adoption. This is happening with more money than we can imagine coming from two directions, yet there is a massive lacuna in terms of legislation, accountability and structures. The EU AI Act, which maybe gets spoken about in relation to other areas of AI regulation, with all of the concerns which come with the omnibus and others, explicitly does not deal with the area of military or defence or even dual-use, which is something Ireland needs to have a strong moral eye to, given the very large number of dual-use goods, for example, that we export to Israel and elsewhere. Those are explicitly excluded from the EU regulatory context. The national context has not taken real action. Internationally, we know there is a process that has taken far too long to come to the point of maybe looking to an adaptation of the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons, even though we know the General Assembly of the UN has also said it will look otherwise for treaty action or for action on this. There is a gap in the governance at a time when the escalation and the funding are immense.  I want to touch on a couple of the key components in this legislation. Our Bill seeks to restrict the use, stockpiling, production, transfer and development of and investment in lethal autonomous weapon systems. It would effectively ban the Irish Government and indeed the Defence Forces from utilising this classification of weapon. It would curtail direct or indirect investment of public funds into this area and indeed the transit of weapons through this territory. We take our definition from the definition that I know the Government has looked at in its engagement with the UN process, which is the International Committee of the Red Cross, ICRC, definition, which looks at lethal autonomous weapons or any weapon with autonomy in its critical function, or any weapons system that can select and attack targets without human intervention. These are commonly known as killer robots. The killer robot campaign makes a number of very important points, which I will not have time to elaborate on in detail but I want to touch on.  One of the key issues here is digital dehumanisation. Technology should be empowering all members of society rather than reducing us. Used against people, it simply profile-pattern matches and processes human beings as data. Fundamentally, machines do not recognise people as people; they simply recognise them as a set of patterns or pieces of data to be processed. It is one of the most essential dehumanisations applied to the most vital decision, which is whether a human lives or dies. If this goes to the area of machine decision making, there are risks to other areas of our lives such as the question of exacerbating existing inequalities. What we know from many algorithmic areas and areas where AI has been applied is that it absorbs and amplifies prejudices and discriminations.  For example, I mentioned Maven. In certain contexts, its accuracy drops below 30%. In relation to policing, we know that AI measures that have targeted and strongly impacted minority groups, in particular, ethnic minorities.  Alienation has been shown to lower the threshold to war. One of the crucial aspects of the processes that are under way is definitions of meaningful human control. In my Bill, I make it clear that someone sending an instruction to what kind of targets they would like is not meaningful human control and does not satisfy that standard. There is a huge danger that we will move to the so-called bias, where 20 seconds are given to press the button. Crucially, machines cannot make those complex ethical choices. Under the law, military commanders have to judge the necessity and proportionality of each attack. They have to distinguish between civilians and military targets. That means not only understanding the weapon systems they are using but understanding the context in which they are used. That context and those consequences cannot be properly reflected if we move towards autonomous weapons.  I thank Professor Luke Moffett from Queen's University Belfast who has done great work on this issue and also on warification. These kinds of weapons cannot identify a boat on which people are waving a white flag or making radio communications that they are shipwrecked. In Gaza, drone operators could not identify World Central Kitchen vehicles because they were using infrared and the organisation's logo did not show up. Those who make an attack cannot necessarily see that a children's school bus is coming up right alongside their target because they are focused on their target. This is what happens when we lose human control. After the loss of control, as Pope Leo mentioned, comes the idea of political responsibility and accountability being lost. We lose track of who can be blamed, and even what happened because some of these systems operate with such a black box that there is not only a lack of understanding about what should be done but also a lack of understanding of what happened. In that regard, we need that understandability.  At this time of this arms race, I urge that Ireland show leadership, support this Bill and be a strong driver of the push, internationally and at national level, for a prohibition on these arms and weapons. I look forward to the Minister of State's response. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Frances Black","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Frances-Black.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Frances-Black.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Frances Black  I am proud to put my name to this Bill alongside my colleagues Senators Alice-Mary Higgins, Lynn Ruane and Eileen Flynn. I commend Senator Higgins on the amazing work she has done on it.  It is shocking to think that we need legislation such as this or that we have to write into law what should be self-evident, namely, that a machine must never be allowed to decide to take a human life. Yet, here we are. I hope the Government will rise to meet this moment. We are living through a moment in history where the decisions we make, or fail to make, about emerging technology will define what kind of world we leave behind us. The question before us is not abstract. It is this: should a machine, powered by artificial intelligence, be permitted to decide to take a human life without any human being making that decision? My answer is an unequivocal \"No\", and I believe this Bill reflects that answer in law.  Lethal autonomous weapon systems, weapons that can select and attack targets without human intervention, are not science fiction. They exist. The Kargu-2 drone, used in Libya in 2020, is widely documented as the first recorded case of a lethal autonomous weapon being deployed in an armed attack. We are debating not a hypothetical future but a present danger.  Lest anyone think this is purely theoretical, we need only look at what is happening in the world around us. There is extensive and deeply disturbing evidence that AI-targeting systems, tools that select human beings as targets with minimal oversight, have been deployed in conflict zones with catastrophic civilian casualties. Two systems in particular have been documented by Israeli investigative journalists in the context of Gaza. The first, as my colleague has said, which is called Lavender, used AI to generate a list of up to 37,000 Palestinians marked as targets. The second - I find it almost impossible to say this without feeling emotional and without it catching in my throat - is called Where's Daddy? or Hello Daddy. It was designed specifically to wait until a man returned to his home and his family and then signal the army to strike. How outrageous is it to kill them all, at home? That is not warfare governed by law. That is not meaningful human control. That is a machine waiting at a door. The civilians of Gaza - the women, children and fathers - have paid an unimaginable price. This Bill says \"Never again\" and \"Not in Ireland's name\".  What makes these weapons so profoundly troubling is not only their lethality; it is the removal of human, moral agency from the act of killing. When a machine pulls the trigger, who is accountable? Is it the programmer, the manufacturer or the officer who deployed it? International humanitarian law is built on the assumption that human beings make decisions and can be held responsible for them. Lethal autonomous weapons shatter that foundation.  The Secretary-General of the United Nations, Ant\u00f3nio Guterres, has said these weapons are morally repugnant and has repeatedly called for their global prohibition. He has set a deadline of 2026 to conclude a legally binding international instrument. We are in that year now and here in this Chamber, we have an opportunity to add Ireland's voice in a meaningful legislative way. Ireland has been a co-signatory of UN General Assembly resolutions on this issue and has spoken at the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons, but words and co-sponsorship must be backed up by action.  The Joint Committee on Artificial Intelligence heard expert testimony that autonomous weapon systems would face fundamental obstacles complying with international humanitarian law. Academics, civil society and legal experts all pointed in the same direction. Ireland should now legislate for it.  We have done this before. Ireland was the first signatory of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. We played a leading role in the Convention on Cluster Munitions and the anti-personnel mine ban convention. That legislation is not something to be proud of and then set aside. It is something that we have to live up to. This Bill is how we live up to it.  This legislation will prohibit the Irish State from using, stockpiling, producing, transferring, developing or investing in lethal autonomous weapon systems. Critically, it goes further than simply banning the weapons themselves. It prohibits the investment of public money - the Minister of State's money and my money - in their development. Ireland will not fund the automation of killing.  I have spent years arguing in this House that Ireland must not be complicit, through trade, investment and silence, in violations of international humanitarian law. That same principle applies here. If we allow lethal autonomous weapons to be developed, transferred or funded without restrictions, we become complicit in a future where machines decide who lives and who dies. That is why I am so proud to support this Bill today.  This is not an anti-military Bill; it is a pro-humanity Bill. It says that wherever force is used, a human being must remain accountable. It says that the decision to take a life must never be delegated to an algorithm.  I urge every Senator in this House to support this Bill. The world is watching whether national parliaments are willing to act. Let the Seanad show what Ireland is. I will leave every colleague in this House with one final thought - the day will come when our children or grandchildren look at us and ask what we did when they wanted to let machines decide who would live and who would die and if there was something that we could do to stop it. Let our conscience be clear and let us vote for this Bill. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fiona O'Loughlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Fiona O'Loughlin  It gives me great delight to welcome my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Catherine Ardagh. It is the first time I have had the chance to address her formally and officially as Minister of State. As a former Senator, she has a special understanding of, and support for, the Seanad. I wish her well in her important portfolio and congratulate her.  On behalf of Fianna F\u00e1il, I welcome this debate. Fianna F\u00e1il will not oppose the Bill.  I acknowledge that the motivation for this Bill is grounded in humanitarian principles, for which Ireland has been a long-standing international champion. It is in keeping with Ireland's established policy position on disarmament, arms control, non-proliferation and, of course, human rights. However, the Bill is somewhat premature in seeking national legislation before international agreement is found on core concepts, including essential legal definitions. When Ireland has legislated previously in respect of arms control, it has done so on the basis of relevant international agreements in which legal concepts, norms, terms and definitions are widely agreed and understood. Discussions at international level to establish an agreed set of norms, terms and definitions in respect of lethal autonomous weapons systems, LAWS, or the use of artificial intelligence in the military domain are at an early stage.  It is important to affirm Ireland's long-standing position that the use of autonomous weapons systems to identify, select and engage targets without any or nominal human involvement is fundamentally incompatible with international humanitarian law and the principles of distinction, proportionality and precaution which underpin it. At the same time, it is neither timely nor possible to legislate nationally in the absence of an agreed international approach. The breadth of both the definitions and the reference to components of autonomous weapons systems would be likely to bring a broad range of commercial products within its scope and would be unimplementable in practice. The fact the Bill proposes to create criminal offences in this respect underlines the need for precision and certainty when seeking to introduce prohibitions of this nature.  Regulating LAWS requires comprehensive and detailed work to establish rules around the full life cycle of these systems, from design to deployment. A large body of international experts is currently working to establish common international definitions of autonomous weapons systems, their development and deployment, as well as the broader uses of AI in the military domain. This includes international AI dialogues on technical, ethical and legal elements. Ireland is active, alongside like minded partners, in seeking to establish international regulation of LAWS. The primary forum for these efforts is the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons and its group of governmental experts, GGE, on LAWS, in Geneva. The approach and elements for any future international instruments are still being developed and efforts are at a delicate stage with a decision on a path forward to be taken by November of this year. Ireland has been influential in helping to shape this process and will continue to advocate for a progressive outcome in the months ahead. We recognise the urgency of controlling the use of autonomous weapons systems and we are at the forefront of negotiations internationally. The Minister and the Government are open to further engagement while international efforts continue.  The Bill contains elements that are similar in nature to the provision of the Cluster Munitions and Anti-Personnel Mines Act 2008. That legislation was enacted to enable Ireland to give effect to two existing international conventions, namely the 2008 Convention on Cluster Munitions and the 1997 Convention on the Prohibition of the Use, Stockpiling, Production and Transfer of Anti-Personnel Mines and on their Destruction. Notably, the relevant definitions in the 2008 Act replicate the definitions in those conventions which themselves have been the subject of extensive negotiations among states. Enacting national legislation now without knowing what the agreed approach to regulating laws at the international level will be, would pre-empt the outcome of the ongoing GGE process. The difficulty in proceeding on a stand-alone basis is illustrated by the fact that the Bill proposes to prohibit LAWS by reference to the definition of autonomous weapons systems which has been used as a working definition by the International Committee of the Red Cross, ICRC, in circumstances where it is not itself advocating for an outright prohibition on LAWS. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Clonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","memberCode":"Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Tom Clonan  It is great to see the Minister of State here today. It is the first time I have seen her since her elevation. I congratulate her on her appointment and wish her the best of luck with her portfolio.  I thank the Civil Engagement Group for bringing forward this legislation. It comes at a timely moment. We know about automation in weapons systems. There were radical changes in the automation of weapons systems during the 20th century and that has continued into the 21st century. However, the concept of an autonomous weapons system is an entirely new one that would take human beings completely out of the decision-making process. By way of illustration, during the D-Day invasion and subsequent invasion of Germany and liberation of France in the Second World War, it was the very first time we had these combined arms operations. At the height of that battle, the state of the art in terms of command, control and communication meant that when they were at their absolute maximum capacity, commanders could make maybe three or four real time, meaningful battlefield decisions in any 24 hours, at the level of division and above. It was about four decisions per day. Fast forward to the 21st century, thinking of operations such as the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, with changes in technology, logistics, supply, communications, digital communications and so on, they were able to increase that to maybe 24 to 30 decisions per day. With the use of AI and target acquisitions systems like Palantir and others, during the recent air campaign against Iran, the Israelis and the United States were able to perform up to 1,000 battlefield decisions per day. That is faster than human thought. That is not an autonomous weapons system; that is still one that is controlled by human beings. However, they are now controlling systems that operate faster than the speed of human thought and, in that context, they slaughtered thousands and thousands of people. There is a direct correlation between the increase or developments in technology, and lethality.  We have to understand the context in which we are bringing this legislation forward. Senator O'Loughlin mentioned international treaties and conventions, and they would be my preference. However, we live in a world where the United States and Russia have acted without any regard to international law. Donald Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu did not declare war on Iran and Lebanon. They did not have the pretence of going to the UN Security Council. They just attacked a neighbour, like medieval kings crossing into another territory to decapitate their leader. Reprehensible as they are, they killed the Ayatollah. I have no sympathy whatsoever for the Iranian regime and I do not mourn their passing, but I do mourn the passing of international law. We have to show leadership, and if we have to do it at national level, it will create the precedent and create moral pressure.  The other issue with these autonomous weapons systems, in all of the desktop, IT-enhanced modelling they have done, they tend towards escalation, without the human component contained within them, because there is no moral dimension or sensitivity contained within them. Why is this happening at the moment? In the early nineties the US Secretary of Defense had a conference in the Pentagon and called in all of America's defense contractors and told them that, basically, they were all fired.  It went from having hundreds of defence contractors to just five, including Boeing and Northrop Grumman, because of the peace dividend from the end of the Soviet Union. Donald Trump has brought together over 50 defence contractors and is obliging them to carry out defence work. In Silicon Valley, Google has the motto \"Don't be evil.\" A lot of tech companies in Silicon Valley have traditionally stepped away from military contracts. That has changed. It is now referred to by the tech bros as the defence tech gold rush.  We are on the threshold of the proliferation of autonomous weapons. We are at a transformational point. A system that is operating faster than the speed of thought may be overseen by people such as Xi Jinping, the ayatollahs, Benjamin Netanyahu, Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin. We must show leadership in our own little way. I am glad the Government is not opposing the Bill. This is an opportunity to show leadership. As somebody said, we must be able to tell our grandchildren that we did everything in our power to stop this. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I am sorry, Senator. I was only asking you to move nearer the microphone so that the transcribers could hear what you were saying. I call Senator Andrews. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  Like Senator O'Loughlin, this is my first opportunity to wish the Minister of State well on her elevation. I wish her the very best. It is a great opportunity for her. It is a great moment for her and I wish her well.  I thank Senator Higgins for introducing the Bill, which we support completely. I would be concerned if anyone were to oppose it and it is welcome that the Government is not opposing it. Like Senator Clonan, I think it is something we should introduce at a national level to set an example and send out a message that we are going to do our part. We should be very proud of Ireland's record when it comes to promoting disarmament and non-proliferation of immoral and unnecessarily brutal weapons. Ireland was central to the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and led the way early on when it came to nuclear disarmament. Likewise, we were key to the Convention on Cluster Munitions, as well as the anti-personnel landmines convention not too long ago. Leading the way on the prohibition of lethal autonomous weapons is a meaningful way that we can add to this legacy in the modern day. That can be helped on its way with this common-sense legislation.  Much like landmines and cluster munitions, lethal autonomous weapon systems pose an inherent and unnecessary risk to non-combatants and are completely contrary to accepted values, human rights and international law. We have seen the devastation that they inflict in Lebanon and Gaza. It is horrendous. There is no soldier present to distinguish between civilians and enemies and there is no officer providing oversight or taking responsibility. There is only a computer programme to kill in the most efficient way it is able to do. It completely separates warfare from basic humanity and morality, making it essentially impossible for individuals to be held to account for lethal actions from these weapons. I do not see how anyone could be happy for these sorts of weapons to be used in future wars but, unfortunately, power and money, and the big powers, are investing in that technology. It is depressing in many ways when you think about it. The United States, China, Russia and, no doubt, other countries are developing AI-powered weaponry with advanced killer robot autonomous drones already being deployed in Ukraine. There is a very real risk that this will become the new arms race with every major military power pouring resources into producing the most lethal and powerful AI weaponry possible, free from any human notions of morality or compassion. A future in which wars are waged by artificial intelligence is no longer just science fiction. It is a terrifying prospect.  It is worth noting that Ireland has already taken very positive steps in calling for the regulation of these weapons at an international level and has supported these efforts within the United Nations. Since 2018, the UN has maintained that lethal autonomous weapons systems are politically unacceptable and morally repugnant, and has called for their prohibition under international law. That is why we need to lead by example. We can do it. The current Secretary-General reiterated this in 2023 and called on member states to each adopt, by 2026, a legally binding instrument to prohibit lethal autonomous weapon systems that function without human control or oversight, which cannot be used in compliance with international humanitarian law, and to regulate all other types of autonomous weapon systems. Enacting this Bill would be a step towards this objective and would give further credibility to Ireland's calls for the prohibition of these weapons systems internationally.  We are living in an exceptionally dangerous and unstable world. That makes our position as a militarily neutral country all the more important both for our own security and as a means of promoting disarmament and peace abroad. I hope that the Government will support this legislation. It is not opposing it, but is it supporting it? There is a difference. I hope the Government will remain committed to protecting Irish neutrality and our ability to be a positive force for peace on the international stage. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Laura Harmon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Laura Harmon  I thank the Civil Engagement Group for its work in bringing forward this important Bill. It has the full support of the Labour Party and the Cross-Party Group in the Seanad. It is a Bill that deals with what is fast becoming one of the most pressing issues of our time, which is the proliferation of autonomous weapon systems. We are already seeing the rapid expansion of the use of these systems in conflicts, wars and illegal wars across the world. The illegal bombing campaign waged on Iran by Trump's America and Netanyahu's Israel in recent months was the moment we first saw these weapons used at such a mass scale but it was not the first time they have been used. The wars in Ukraine, Gaza and Lebanon have also seen artificial intelligence used for the targeting of strikes.  However, the scale we saw in the attacks on Iran was new. In the first 24 hours of the US-Israel waged war, the US struck over 1,000 sites in Iran. That was an assault twice the size of the initial attacks of the Iraq war 23 years ago and was enabled by these systems and by AI. We have now clearly entered a world where powerful men without any respect for international law are not just waging illegal wars but are able to do so with a brutality and magnitude that was unthinkable before the development of advanced AI. That is not to say that unthinkable acts and wars did not take place before this but this is the scale that we are dealing with now because of these systems and this technology.  There are obviously significant ethical issues here. In recent years, we have seen international law undermined at every turn and leaders operating with impunity. AI weaponry threatens to pour fuel on that fire. Fundamentally, when AI makes a mistake in a conflict, who can we hold responsible? For those of us who have not yet given up on the conviction that international justice and international law are our only way to ensure peace and prosperity, this is not an academic question. It is vitally important for the future of humanity.  Last month, as Senator Higgins said, Pope Leo spoke out against the use of AI in war and on this I agree with him. It is not clear whether the horrific strike on a girls' school in southern Iran on the first day of the war was targeted using AI or if it was the result of a shocking human error but there is at least some faint hope that somehow, someday, justice could be delivered if a human is found responsible. If it was an AI system that picked that target, where does that leave us?  It is also most worrying that we are seeing the targeting of other minorities in recent wars and illegal wars. The gamification of disabled people is one example of what is happening. This is extremely worrying and is a matter we should all be concerned about.  We cannot ignore that there are fundamental existential questions for us as a species. Handing over the control of deadly weapons to unaccountable machines, with seemingly no guard-rails, is something we should all agree is unacceptable.  We can have no faith, however, that the hubristic, narcissistic leaders in ultimate control of these systems are giving this the slightest thought at this point. This was made crystal clear by the vicious way the Trump Administration responded when, earlier this year, the AI company Anthropic asked the US military to put in place the simplest safeguards for the use of its models in autonomous warfare. Clearly, men like Trump have no interest in any limits or safety measures on the use of these weapons systems, and this should worry us all deeply.  Turning to today\u2019s Bill, Ireland cannot be complicit in this chilling new form of war. The Bill will ban the use, sale and transit of autonomous weapons or their components in Ireland. This is a crucial step in maintaining our neutrality and our moral standing in the world. Ireland has been a leader on disarmament for many decades and it is essential that we lead from the front as the sinister use of automated weaponry is rapidly expanding. We simply cannot allow our country to be complicit.  The Government is on record as agreeing that this is the new front in the disarmament movement. Last year, the T\u00e1naiste told the D\u00e1il that Ireland regards the area of autonomous weapons systems as one of the most pressing issues facing the modern disarmament agenda. If the Government is serious in that sentiment, then it needs to not just not oppose this Bill but to fully back it and commit to backing it on all Stages in both Houses. We need to see work globally to push for a treaty banning these weapons and we need to see it urgently. Ireland also needs to lead from the front. We need to make it clear that we will not be complicit in the use of these weapons before any treaty can be agreed. This is why we must back this Bill. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Nessa Cosgrove  D\u00e9anaim comhghairdeas leis an Aire St\u00e1it as a post nua. When the topic of autonomous weapons comes up for discussion, as it increasingly does, many people of my age get a flashback to the Terminator films, which saw a time when travelling cyborg, Arnold Schwarzenegger, was sent back to 1984 to assassinate Sarah Connor. The AI identifies and kills women called Sarah Connor in the knowledge that it will eventually get the right one. It seemed very far-fetched to me when I was growing up in Bandon in County Cork in 1984 that an AI called Skynet might be dispatching a killer robot into the past to eliminate an individual woman. It does not seem too far-fetched now, though, in the era of Palantir, Anthropic and SpaceX, that the targeting of an individual by a machine could be a reality in just three years' time.  At the moment, we live in an era where countries deploy assassinations and accept the so-called collateral damage, or killing and maiming of innocent civilians, as being okay. I am thinking of the pager attacks on the Hezbollah leadership that killed and maimed children and other innocent civilians along with the intended targets. This terrorist attack was designed specifically to cause maximum injury to the targets. In the attacks that killed the Ayatollah Khamenei, the decision was made in the full knowledge that he was likely with his family. His daughter, granddaughter, daughter-in-law and son-in-law were killed in the attack. On the first day of the Iran war, the US launched an attack in an attempt to kill members of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard. It hit a school, a primary school, and murdered 156 civilians, including 120 children. A person made that decision to target that complex, that building, based on human intelligence gathered by the two supposedly greatest intelligence agencies in the world, Mossad and the CIA. A person made the decision to give the green light for the attack on the ayatollah based on the assessment that his death warranted the deaths of those around him. In the case of the pager attacks, a person at the highest level of the Israeli Government made the decision that they were going to explode devices not knowing who was holding them but knowing that wives, parents, siblings or even children of the intended target would have access to the device or would be in close proximity to them.  A person has to live with their conscience knowing that they pressed \"Go\" on a decision based on human intelligence. They also have to live with the consequences that that might mean answering before a criminal court or a higher court for taking that action. Between 7,500 and 10,000 people have been killed by the US and Israeli forces in Iran and Lebanon since the start of the most recent conflict. The deaths of Palestinians in Gaza are nearly tenfold that number, with the figure standing at over 73,000 people. Individual people will be held accountable for these war crimes in the future. Every time an Israeli settler or soldier makes a decision to squeeze the trigger to kill an unarmed Palestinian and every time an American service person directs a smart bomb into a school, they are committing a war crime. The use of autonomous weapons systems removes that liability. It removes any accountability by an individual for unleashing a weapon which will kill and kill until it has accomplished its mission. This is not science fiction: this is science fact.  The Ukrainian military has confirmed that two years ago it deployed AI-controlled quadcopter drones known as Terminators on the front line, killing Russian soldiers. The AI model searches for and interprets targets. The maker of the drone said that, \"We just launch it and we know everything will be dead \u2013 everything that will be found there in this particular area will be dead. There is no connection to the drone at all, you cannot see the video, nothing ... Everything it sees will be killed\".  This Bill could not have come at a more appropriate time. I commend the Civil Engagement Group on bringing forward this legislation. The restrictions we have seen the US place upon AI models such as Anthropic's Mythos 5 and Fable 5, the export of high-end AI chips and the attempts by the Trump regime to control Anthropic, Palantir and other tech companies is a recognition of the potential for the explosion of autonomous weapons. These, however, are not attempts to rein in the destructive power of autonomous weapons but an attempt to control and stay ahead of every other country on the planet.  The advent of autonomous weapons systems predicted in science fiction books and films has arrived. We must now do everything we can not just to control and regulate killing machines but to forbid the development, testing, stockpiling, retention and use of autonomous weapon systems in this jurisdiction and lead the way in eliminating them throughout the world. In time, this Bill may be seen as the first step in a future treaty for the non-proliferation of autonomous weapons. I commend the Bill and its author. Maith sibh. We have an opportunity now to show leadership here and we have started to do so. T\u00fas maith leath na hoibre. The work has started, but we all need to work together now to make sure it continues. I welcome that Fianna F\u00e1il is not blocking this Bill. I urge that it fully support this legislation going through on all Stages in the two Houses. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patricia Stephenson","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Patricia Stephenson  I thank the Minister of State for being here. I welcome the Bill being brought forward by Senator Alice-Mary Higgins and my Civil Engagement Group colleagues. It is powerful and pertinent legislation. It is calling for a moratorium on the design, production, sale and use of autonomous weapons. It is in line with calls from the UN to introduce international legislation to ban their use outright.  These weapon systems, which include advanced drones to target and apply force, operate without any human oversight. They are programmed to hunt and they are programmed to kill. They lack empathy and the ability to make ethical judgements, and, ultimately, they are unaccountable under international law. As we have heard before, the Secretary General of the UN has called these weapon systems morally repugnant and said they have no place in our world.  The threat these weapons pose to human life and human rights cannot be overstated. Increasingly, we are seeing the reduction of meaningful human control in the design and implementation of AI systems as the technology continues to evolve. This technology only serves to accelerate our own digital dehumanisation and we must, therefore, work collaboratively on an international level to halt the race to the bottom in the evolution of autonomous technologies. This is what we are seeing now: a race to the bottom to have the most effective AI technologies which are used to murder civilians.  I would not normally cite the Pope, but as we have already heard, he has recently called for the disarmament of AI, citing his serious concerns that AI poses an extreme danger to humanity and lowers the threshold to war. This is a warning that should be alarming to all of us and we must heed it. Since 2014, UN member states have been debating proposed regulations on autonomous weapon systems under the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons, but so far there has not been a consensus on the definition of \"lethal autonomous weapon systems\". There has not been a clear roadmap on how to effectively legislate for what constitutes meaningful human control. We must, therefore, act domestically. International agreements are the best solution, but in lieu of that, we must have our own domestic legislation. As was said earlier, Ireland could lead on this issue. We could be the first to do it and then have it rolled out elsewhere.  Since 2014, in the meantime, the IDF has used AI technology to target and kill Palestinian civilians. The Lavender AI programme, very sweetly named, automatically scans surveillance databases to generate the names of thousands of suspects for targeting. Lavender can identify targets in just 20 seconds, without any human oversight at all. The IDF uses the programme Where's Daddy? It uses AI technology to track and target Palestinians through their mobile phones. It then marks the exact moment when they return home to their families. Daddy comes into the house and the Where's Daddy? technology triggers an attack, usually at night. Entire families have been targeted and murdered using this form of weaponised AI.  Far from being accidental casualties and a consequence of AI's tendency to get things wrong, these practices are designed to deliberately kill as many people as possible with minimal personnel needed. Rather than minimising harm, these AI tools have effectively turbocharged the pace and scale of deadly force but repackaged it under the guise of algorithmic efficiency, often against civilians. What was once decision support by AI has evolved into decision automation and the effects on human lives are devastating. Across the board, we as legislators are constantly sprinting to keep up with the rapid evolution of AI technology.  Where appropriate, AI technology should be harnessed to support human decision-making that promotes well-being and positivity in society. However, in the use of AI in autonomous weapon systems, the human element is entirely removed. People cannot reason with an algorithm or an AI weapon. They cannot question it or talk down to it, and drones cannot be tried in a court of law. What is worrying is the opacity with which artificial intelligence is learning and making decisions. In many cases, we simply do not know how AI is making automated decisions. It operates within this black box. We have no oversight of it at all. AI is really good at crunching numbers and analysing vast volumes of data quickly but it struggles in situations where context is essential. Another worry with AI is the inherent discrimination built into its systems, which we cannot discern. The question is: who is programming the algorithms?  AI is superior in one way, in that it does not suffer from cognitive bias but when it is fed biased data, which is always the case, it takes that bias and runs with it. Concerns around bias have come up in the policy debates on autonomous weapons but the topic has not been considered or explored in depth. It is important to understand how bias in autonomous weapon systems threatens compliance with international humanitarian law, and the legal implications of this have to be addressed. We have heard chilling reports of drone strikes on civilians in Ukraine, Gaza, Lebanon and Iran. What is frightening is states' inability or unwillingness to draw a red line that states that using drones in AI to target humans is wrong and a step too far.  The Campaign to Stop Killer Robots notes that the vast majority of states are in favour of introducing binding legislation to regulate and prohibit autonomy in weapons systems. As far back as 2019, Irish people were cognisant of these harms, when 81% of people surveyed were in favour of a ban.  There is still a lack of understanding of how these weapon systems work and it is crucial to emphasise the existential threat posed by the proliferation of the autonomous weapons. We need to devise solutions to restrict their use. We have grown accustomed to AI recommending podcasts we might like to listen to and certain products it pushes us to buy, and we have serious concerns about that, but AI is also recommending human targets to the US and Israeli militaries, and militaries all over the world. It is recommending different people that they can kill. Anthropic's large language model, Claude, assisted the US military in recommending strikes in Iran. AI recommended the targets and the soldiers pulled the trigger. More than 1,000 targets were struck within a 24-hour period, including many residential areas. That is violent on an unprecedented scale.  The US military uses AI technology to save time in identifying as many targets as possible. Human beings are simply reduced to data points. They are sorted, scored and processed for elimination. Elimination, of course, is death. It sounds dystopian but it is happening today. It seems that Iran is a laboratory and the US and Israel are acting as scientists, testing their toys on a civilian population. We also know there is significant money to be made in this industry. It is a big money-making industry and introducing legislation to ban further development and use of autonomous weapons will probably not go down with major tech and military companies but any rules to safeguard human lives have to be prioritised.  The risk to human life and human rights is too great and it is for that reason that I hope the Government will not only not oppose this Bill, but seek its quick processing through both the Seanad and the D\u00e1il. I note a point made by Senator Higgins in 2024 at the Joint Committee on Education, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science when she was scrutinising legislation on Horizon funding, which is that we are seeing Horizon funding support cross-fertilisation into these types of civil and defence dual-use technologies and AI technologies. We therefore need to explore where that funding is going and whether it is going in to support the use of automated weapons. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Ardagh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration (Deputy Catherine Ardagh)  I thank all the Senators who contributed to the debate. I particularly thank Senator Alice-Mary Higgins and the Civil Engagement Group. I have known the Senator for a long time. She has been at the forefront of discussions and legislation relating to peace and disarmament in this House as well as non-proliferation. Many Senators raised the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, the Convention on Cluster Munitions, and the Anti-Personnel Mine Ban Convention. All the legislation cited relates to international conventions and treaties that Ireland played a lead role in and are the result of years of international negotiations. Senator Higgins noted her involvement in the Convention on Cluster Munitions. In relation to what we are doing on an international and EU footing, we are again seeking to play a leading role internationally in driving agreement on the prohibition of lethal autonomous weapon systems.  There is significant consensus across the House relating to the aims and goals of the Bill. Ireland regards the control of LAWS as one of the most pressing issues facing the modern arms control agenda. Their development and deployment raise serious ethical, moral and legal questions and the possibility of contravening international humanitarian and human rights law. The use of such systems to identify, select and engage targets without any or nominal human involvement is fundamentally incompatible with international humanitarian law and the principles of distinction, proportionality and precaution that underpin it.  The Government strongly believes that there is a need to maintain meaningful human control of all weapons systems, including any systems that may be developed. Our position is that, for such systems to comply with international humanitarian law, context-specific and value-based judgment by human beings is required and, therefore, the retention of human command and control is critical. Systems that do not incorporate such human command and control must not be developed, must not be deployed, and must not be used. A point made by Senator Stephenson was that you cannot bring a robot to court.  Ireland is active, alongside like-minded partners, in seeking to establish international law in relation to lethal autonomous weapons systems. The primary forum for these efforts is the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons, CCW, and its group of governmental experts on lethal autonomous weapons systems in Geneva. The approach and elements for any future international instruments are still being developed and efforts are at a delicate stage. Ireland has been influential in helping to shape this process. We are actively engaged in seeking a progressive outcome to its existing mandate, which concludes in November. Its mandate is to agree a set of elements of a future international instrument governing LAWS, without prejudice to its nature. Many states, including Ireland and its EU member state partners, are seeking a two-tiered approach of prohibitions on systems that cannot be used in compliance with international humanitarian law, and regulations on others with appropriate safeguards.  In addition to the process ongoing in Geneva, Ireland has been active across a range of international fora seeking to ensure ethics and human rights are respected in emerging military technologies. Along with all other member states, we supported the 2024 Political Declaration on the Responsible Military Use of AI and Autonomy. Ireland has participated in all responsible artificial intelligence in the military domain summits in the Netherlands in 2023, Korea in 2024 and Spain in 2026. Ireland has also engaged and supported research and discussions between states, international organisations, civil society and academia on addressing and mitigating bias in the use of Al, including in the context of discussions on lethal autonomous weapons systems.  Addressing these systems and the wider issue of AI in the military domain, is a cross-government issue. Officials from the Departments of Foreign Affairs and Trade, Defence, Enterprise, Tourism and Employment and the Defence Forces are working collaboratively to advance Ireland\u2019s progressive stance. This is something they will continue to do as the use of relevant systems continues to grow and the need for guardrails becomes ever more clear. In the Government\u2019s view, it is essential that the broadest possible number of states come to agreement on what relevant terms surrounding these weapons systems mean. This should naturally further lead to agreement on the actions that need to be taken to ensure compliance of such systems with international humanitarian law across their entire life-cycle, including design, development, employment and deployment.  That brings me to our debate this evening. I thank Senator Higgins for her contribution to the developing public debate in Ireland on these emerging weapons systems and on the use and potential abuse of AI in the military domain. These are questions of vital importance that touch on questions of international law but also on public morality.  As a republic founded on values and a commitment to upholding international law, including international humanitarian law, and as a country with a long and proud track record of promoting disarmament, arms control and non-proliferation, the issues that the Senator raises demand our attention. I acknowledge the work of Senator Higgins and the other sponsors of this Bill in seeking to raise awareness and advance public debate on these issues. I acknowledge also the contribution that the sponsors are making by initiating consideration in these Houses of appropriate legislative and regulatory responses that we should seek to put in place as a country in response to these developments.  The Government understands and shares the motivation for this Bill grounded as it is in humanitarian principles for which Ireland has been a long-standing international champion. The Government shares the view that autonomous weapons systems that cannot be used in compliance with international humanitarian law and the principles of distinction, proportionality and precaution need to be prohibited. We also want to see clear regulations on those that can through meaningful and effective human command and control. These are fundamental principles that are shared across this House.  It is the Government's view, however, that while we do not oppose this Bill, we believe it is premature to seek national legislation before the necessary international agreement is first put in place on core concepts, including essential legal definitions. These legal definitions are an essential basis for legislation that can successfully address the range of complex legal and regulatory issues raised by this Bill. There are a number of issues which form the basis of our position. I will set them out carefully for the House.  Regulating lethal autonomous weapons systems requires comprehensive and detailed work to establish rules around the full life cycle of these systems. A large body of international experts are currently working to establish common international definitions on autonomous weapons systems, as well as broader uses of AI in the military domain. As I have mentioned, the Government is actively engaged in these efforts. Any national legislation would need to accord with international understandings when they are in place. This is important for a number of reasons.  The breadth of both the definitions and the reference to \"components\" of autonomous weapons systems in the Bill would be likely to bring a broad range of commercial products within its scope such that it would be potentially un-implementable in practice as currently framed. These are the dual-use products discussed by Senator Higgins. The fact that the Bill is proposing to create criminal offences in this respect also underlines the need for precision and certainty when seeking to introduce prohibitions of this nature.  When we have previously created national legislation with respect to arms control, we have done so on the basis of relevant international agreements, which contain widely agreed and understood legal concepts, terms and definitions. This has been the case in respect, for example, with regard to the Cluster Munitions and Anti-Personnel Mines Act 2008.  By contrast, this Bill seeks to prohibit autonomous weapons systems on a stand-alone basis rather than under the auspices of a dedicated international instrument. In so doing, it seeks to introduce and establish a definition of and prohibition on \"autonomous weapons systems\" that does not have international consensus. Furthermore, it comes at a time when Ireland is actively engaged in the dedicated international forum at the UN seeking to achieve consensus on the key elements of a potential future international instrument.  Ireland believes the elements identified through that UN process in what is called the rolling text maintained by the chair of the UN group of governmental experts provides a sufficient basis to move to negotiations on a legally binding instrument. Indeed, this Bill includes some elements of language that has been included in versions of that rolling text itself. While the Government\u2019s focus is on trying to help secure a mandate for negotiations of an instrument, we also recognise that finding consensus will be a significant challenge at a time of low international trust and high international tensions. Some states will prefer a non-binding series of guidelines to complement existing obligations under international humanitarian law. Others may wish to keep the discussion going on definitions with no clear end. The Government is fully aware of the challenges and is preparing for different eventualities that we may be faced with after the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons, CCW, review conference in November. Ireland is ambitious in its approach and is working to secure the best outcome in these negotiations.  Enacting national legislation now without knowing the agreed approach to regulating lethal autonomous weapons systems at the international level could pre-empt the outcome of the ongoing UN process. The difficulty in proceeding on a stand-alone basis is illustrated by the fact that the Bill proposes to prohibit lethal autonomous weapons systems by reference to a definition of \"autonomous weapons systems\" that does not fully accord with the current working international definition or the Government\u2019s aim of prohibiting some systems and regulating others.  It is instructive to consider the experience of other jurisdictions. Elsewhere, some parliaments have agreed resolutions on the need prohibit and control autonomous weapons systems. Iceland was the first state to pass a parliamentary resolution in 2016 expressing support for a ban on the production and use of what it characterised as fully autonomous weapons systems. Notably, the resolution called on the government to monitor the issue at the UN and other international fora. In Belgium, the issue has been somewhat recurring in recent years with parliamentary sessions to discuss and debate adding such systems to the country\u2019s list of prohibited weapons through national legislation. No such effort has succeeded, although supportive parliamentary resolutions have been passed. Ultimately, states have uniformly recognised the importance of seeking an international agreement. At present, many states rely on instituting rules on the use of autonomous systems through military policies or doctrines to align with their obligations under international humanitarian law. How they interpret those rules and compliance may vary thereby highlighting the issue with individual solutions to collective problems.  I will highlight some examples in the Bill to illustrate the definitional challenge. To begin with, the use of the word \u201clethal\u201d to describe relevant autonomous weapons systems has been contested over the years, including by Ireland, as lethal does not suggest a system that can injure or cause damage to a civilian object - any object that is not a military objective. By way of compromise, there is now a provisional working characterisation in the current version of the UN rolling text to broaden the scope to encompass injury and damage. It states that \"a lethal autonomous weapon system can be characterized as ... a combination of one or more weapons and [functionally integrated] technological components, that can identify, select, and engage a target, without intervention by a human\" operating the system. The characterisation further states that it does not exclude systems that have been developed or programmed by humans and have the ability to determine potential targets from preprogrammed profiles. Similarly, a system is not excluded if it does not result in loss of life or cause damage or destruction to objects. What is within or outside scope of a future agreed definition is for future negotiation.  By contrast, this Bill on lethal autonomous weapons systems defines those very systems in a way that is narrower than that being proposed at the international level. It is, therefore, different to existing international understandings. This highlights the core of the definitional challenge, which has meaningful implications. Criminal penalties, which are proposed in the Bill, would not be enforceable without clearly understood or international agreed definitions.  The Bill references prohibitions on the transport or transfer of components of an autonomous weapons system within the jurisdiction of the State. This would go well beyond existing international proposals and would likely prohibit a wide range of material and intangible systems, both hardware and software, that could be used for everyday commercial ICT purposes or legitimate military purposes under appropriate controls. I do not believe that is the intent of the Bill but it could well be the effect with far-reaching implications for industry and the defence of the State. It is unclear how in practice one would control the acquisition or disposal of pre-products given examples of such items include technologies with regular civilian uses.  With regards to elements of the Bill that seek to prevent the use of public moneys for lethal autonomous weapons systems, this is something Ireland has successfully pushed for at the EU level. For example, actions ineligible for EU funding under the European defence industry programme, EDIP, include those related to lethal autonomous weapons systems that operate outside a responsible chain of human command and control or that cannot be used in compliance with international humanitarian law. This is a position we are continuing to carry forward on a principled and legally consistent basis as EU programmes evolve to match the critical security environment in Europe.  While the absence of international consensus on core definitions poses challenges for legislation nationally, I reiterate that the Government broadly supports the motivation behind the Bill, which is why we are working assiduously to find a comprehensive international solution. This will remain the Government\u2019s objective. The Government recognises the urgency of controlling the use of autonomous weapons systems and is at the forefront of international efforts in that regard. We will continue to work with like-minded partners drawing from the expertise of academia and civil society partners towards an ambitious and comprehensive international solution and on that basis, to advance efforts to address the legal, humanitarian and ethical issues presented by lethal autonomous weapons systems. National-level discussions that have due regard to international developments can complement this ongoing work. The Government is open to engagement at national level, including with the sponsors of this Bill, while these international efforts continue with a view to achieving an ambitious and robust outcome that will lay the foundations for future work. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  Before I call Senator Higgins, I welcome Deputy Edward Timmins to the Gallery. He is accompanied by Tom Barrett, Audrey Scott and Mary. I hope they enjoy their visit to Leinster House and to the Seanad especially. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alice-Mary Higgins  I thank the Minister of State for her response and congratulate her on her appointment.  I am glad the Government is not opposing this Bill. I am very happy to continue to engage. Stephen Reid, the drafter of the Bill, who I thank, is also very keen and willing to engage. In bringing this Bill forward, we are very much aware of the international process and the timeliness of the Bill. I reject the suggestion that it is not timely; it is extremely timely. A couple of crucial points are coming, with the discussions of the group of government experts taking place in September and the meeting in November on the conventional weapons treaty, at which it will be decided whether action will be taken.  In the background, we know that if there is a failure to move forward on this issue and bring it within the remit of the conventional weapons treaty as an international instrument because, which requires consensus, there will be pressure, rightly, for action through a stand-alone global treaty. There has already been pressure in the resolutions passed by the General Assembly of the United Nations. That process is under way and it is my belief that Ireland will go into that process and those discussions stronger in a context where we can say national legislation has been discussed and that the Government is, rightly, under pressure as a result of ambitious national legislation. In this case, there is something different from the nuclear non-proliferation treaty negotiations, which occurred in a context where nuclear weapons were not being used every day.  The reason there is a particular urgency with this is that we know these treaty processes take time. I am very happy to work on the definitions as we come through it, but we also need to be strong in pushing those definitions. There are huge, dangerous areas of wiggle room here. What will meaningful human control mean in the final definitions? Will that be diluted? As regards the idea that there may be certain areas where it cannot be used in compliance with international humanitarian law, what will that mean in effect? Will it deal only with the targets or those contexts that we have talked about? Will it deal with the inadvertent contexts? The fact that the targeting was of a military target does not excuse someone because it may have been a military target on a road shared with civilians. There are huge nuances and questions in this regard. Those definitions matter and need to be teased out but it needs to be done from a position of ambition and strength.  We do not wait to see what falls out; we go in to shape what is going to come out of that process. If what is shaped from the process in terms of the conventional weapons is not ambitious enough, then Ireland will need to lead on a global treaty. Ireland will also need to lead, if that treaty process is too prolonged, by taking national action, which can then be amended. Not only am I open to my Bill being amended as it progresses, but if there is an international treaty that takes two or three years, we cannot be in a lacuna in the meantime. This is different. We were told these weapons would make everything more precise. More than 20,000 have been killed by the most advanced targeting technology in the world and it chose to allow the killing of 20,000 children. What we have increasingly seen is that these weapons do not allow target selection to be narrowed; what they do is around expansion. It is effective, not in the sense of narrowing what is done, but in the sense of \"maximum lethality\". That is the industry phrase. It describes 1,000 deaths where, in the past, there could have been 100 or 50 deaths. That is the context.  We cannot afford to have inaction from Ireland or even just to wait for the international processes at UN level when the decisions that are fanning the flames of this process are being made. I will highlight four issues. While Ireland has the Presidency, the multi-annual financial framework, which is going to give a huge amount of money to military and defence spending, will be negotiated and decided. The new European security strategy will be negotiated. Ireland is hosting a European conference on AI in September. The Horizon funding will negotiated. What we do not want is for all those decisions to get made without any governance framework around military use of AI and autonomous weapons. We do not want money being directed that way. I urge that the security strategy reaffirm the position on cluster munitions and landmines, to which, sadly, some of the SAFE funding has gone. We become complicit in spending money collectively at European level if that money goes to these weapons and we allow Horizon money to be invested in their development or allow industry supports to AI that allow the industry to develop these weapons. We do not want that money to be spent and that momentum to occur while we are waiting to progress the international treaty. That is why it matters that Ireland, as a neutral country, goes into those negotiations saying that while we want international action, we have a national concern and national action which we want to be reflected in the collective European decisions. Ireland being strong on this and showing leadership on it cannot wait two, three or four years while we see the vulnerable of the world used as laboratory targets.  I welcome the offer of engagement and I accept it. The Minister of State mentioned the new definition and the components that make it up. The technological components are in the new definitions. It is not the same as dual use, solely. It is where those components are the building blocks and have been shown to be the building blocks. The Minister of State described it herself. It is a building block to build these weapons and we need to legislate against the building blocks, rather than simply say, \"We sent you the Lego and you put it together into an autonomous weapon gun\". We need to tackle those, especially as Ireland is already vulnerable on this given our sad exposure to complicity in relation to dual-use goods. This is one dual-use area where we absolutely need to draw a red line. I thank the Minister of State and all who spoke in support of the Bill. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  Before I put the question, I welcome Councillor Anna Grainger and Councillor J.P. Durkan and their guests to the Gallery. I also welcome guests of the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, and Deputy McGreehan. I hope they enjoy their visit to Leinster House. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  When is it proposed to take Committee Stage? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alice-Mary Higgins  Next Tuesday. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  Is that agreed? Agreed. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 23 June 2026."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  When it is proposed to sit again? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  Tomorrow at 9.30 a.m. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  Is that agreed? Agreed. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an Seanad ar athl\u00f3 ar 7.40 p.m. go dt\u00ed 9.30 a.m., D\u00e9ardaoin, an 18 Meitheamh 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The Seanad adjourned at 7.40 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 18 June 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Prohibition of Lethal Autonomous Weapons Systems Bill 2026: Second Stage"}]}}]},"contextDate":"2026-06-17"},{"debateRecord":{"house":{"showAs":"Joint Committee on Disability Matters","committeeCode":"joint_committee_on_disability_matters","houseCode":"dail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/committee\/dail\/34\/joint_committee_on_disability_matters","chamberType":"committee","houseNo":"34"},"chamber":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/def\/committee","showAs":"Joint Committee on Disability Matters"},"lastUpdated":"2026-06-23T11:18:29+00:00","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/joint_committee_on_disability_matters\/2026-06-17\/debate\/main","formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/joint_committee_on_disability_matters\/2026-06-17\/debate\/mul@\/main.xml"},"pdf":null},"date":"2026-06-17","counts":{"contributorCount":10,"divisionCount":0,"debateSectionCount":1,"questionCount":0,"billCount":0},"debateType":"debate","debateSections":[{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/joint_committee_on_disability_matters\/2026-06-17\/debate\/dbsect_2","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Disability and Financial Independence: Discussion","counts":{"speechCount":102,"speakerCount":11},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maurice Quinlivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Adrian Carroll","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Laura Harmon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aisling Dempsey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Clonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","memberCode":"Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Margaret Murphy O'Mahony","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gillian Toole","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gillian-Toole.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Gillian-Toole.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Carrigy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maurice Quinlivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Apologies have been received from Senator Nikki Bradley.  The purpose of today's meeting is to discuss counting the cost of disability and financial independence. On behalf of the committee, I extend a warm welcome to the following witnesses: from AsIAm, Mr. Michael O'Flanagan, head of legal, policy and information line, and Mr. Adrian Carroll, senior policy officer; from the Rehab Group, Ms Emer Costello, head of advocacy and campaigns, and Ms \u00c1ine Dunne; and from the Irish Wheelchair Association, Ms Joan Carthy, national advocacy manager, and Mr. Conor Lynott, member.  I will read a note on privilege and housekeeping matters. All witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make her, him or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be considered damaging to the good name of that person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction I may make. The evidence of witnesses who are physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege.  I remind members of the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings, they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. Members attending remotely must do so from within the precincts of the Leinster House complex.  I call Mr. O'Flanagan to make his opening statement. He has five minutes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Michael O'Flanagan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Michael O'Flanagan  Mr. Carroll is delivering the opening statement. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maurice Quinlivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  That is perfect. I call Mr. Carroll. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Adrian Carroll","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Adrian Carroll  I thank the committee for the opportunity to address it. I am a senior policy officer with AsIAm. I am here this morning representing AsIAm, alongside our head of legal, policy and information line, Mr. Michael O\u2019Flanagan. We greatly appreciate the opportunity to contribute to this important discussion on the cost of disability and financial independence under Article 28 of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, UNCRPD. AsIAm welcomes the committee's focus on linking the cost of disability to financial independence. For many autistic people and families, their ability to participate in many areas of Irish life is affected by not being able to meet the cost of living, which is exacerbated by the barriers that persist across education, healthcare, employment, and in both disability and across our wider public services. Article 28 of the UNCRPD sets out that disabled people have a right to access social protection and an adequate standard of living. In many cases, this standard of living is out of reach for many autistic people and families in Ireland today.  The evidence clearly shows that the Government needs to do more to address these additional costs. Research commissioned by the Department of Social Protection found that disabled people face average additional costs of approximately \u20ac11,700 per year. More recent research from the ESRI and the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission suggests that households containing a disabled person may require between 52% and 59% more income simply to achieve the same standard of living as other households. For households supporting a person with higher support needs, this figure rises to over 90%. These are costs that help autistic people and families make ends meet. The European Commission\u2019s semester report for Ireland highlights that disability-related costs absorb more than half of the income of households with persons with disabilities. Furthermore, in the 2025 report for Ireland, the Commission highlighted that Ireland has one of the highest disability employment gaps in the EU. These include therapies that families must access privately due to the vast waiting lists for public services. These also include assistive technology like augmentative and alternative communication, AAC, devices, sensory supports, higher transport costs, clothing, specific foods, higher energy bills, communication supports and costs that come with accessing education and employment.  AsIAm\u2019s Same Chance Report 2026 surveyed over 1,600 autistic people and families. Our community noted in this report that there are additional costs on the grounds of being autistic or raising an autistic family member. In this year's report, we found that 98% believe that a cost of disability payment should be introduced. The recent summit organised by the Department of Social Protection under the national human rights strategy for disabled people acknowledged these additional costs. Many community members who contributed to this year\u2019s report say that they are experiencing an autism tax. Many families tell us that they are paying the equivalent of a second mortgage to access private therapies and services. Others stated they were spending hundreds of euro every week to access opportunities that meet their child\u2019s sensory needs, from clubs to social pursuits. Autistic adults tell us of the barriers they face with accessing healthcare and mental health support and navigating being autistic at work. This reflects that autistic people continue to face significant barriers to entering and staying in the workforce.  In this year's same chance report, only 45% of respondents to our survey reported being in paid employment. Research suggests that up to 85% of autistic adults are unemployed or underemployed. Families frequently have to reduce their working hours or leave their jobs to support their autistic loved ones. This creates a cycle where autistic people and families both must pay more to meet everyday expenses, but have fewer opportunities to secure an income that ensures that they can get by before they even get ahead. In short, autistic people are significantly more likely to experience poverty, material deprivation and social exclusion.  We welcome the Government\u2019s commitment to introduce a cost of disability payment set out in the roadmap for social inclusion, as it has the potential to be transformative for many autistic people and families. Autistic people and families should not be expected to make up for shortfalls within our health system by paying for private therapies, assessments and supports out of their own pocket. A cost of disability payment needs to be complemented by greater investment in healthcare, education, housing, transport and employment support.  In our submission to the Department of Social Protection, AsIAm sets out that three principles should guide the direction of a future cost-of-disability payment. It should recognise the additional costs that come with being autistic or raising an autistic person, and autistic people should be able to access this payment regardless of whether they are working. The payment should have a straightforward, accessible application process, without placing significant additional burdens on applicants to prove that they need this support and it should not penalise people for their individual circumstances. It should be part of a wider whole-of-government strategy to reduce the overall cost of disability and address the barriers that create these costs in the first place.  In summary, AsIAm sees the Government's commitment to introduce a cost-of-disability payment as an opportunity for us to take leadership and to help to make rights real for the communities represented here today and for autistic and disabled people across Ireland. A cost-of-disability payment would support more of us to get the jobs we want, live independently and be part of our local community. It would also tackle the loneliness and isolation that members of our community experience and strengthen and support local communities across Ireland when this support is most needed. We look forward to engaging with the committee and answering any questions members may have. Go raibh m\u00edle maith agaibh. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Emer Costello","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Emer Costello  I thank the committee for the opportunity to speak at this very important meeting.  Rehab Group is an independent voluntary organisation that supports over 12,800 people who use our services. Our mission is to empower people to live independently, participate fully in their communities and live the life of their choosing. Disabled people are marginalised by a host of financial, physical, and societal constraints that reinforce our unequal society. Ireland has significant progress to make in fully realising the rights of disabled people, as enshrined in the UNCRPD. Independent living is out of the reach of so many people with a disability who cannot find accessible or affordable housing or who do not have adequate personal assistance support. Employment of people with disabilities in Ireland is still among the lowest in Europe. Disabled people, especially those in rural areas, struggle to find truly accessible transport options. Hidden healthcare costs for those with a medical card eat into limited budgets.  The ESRI estimates that the cost of disability is between \u20ac488 and \u20ac555 per week. Key additional costs include higher energy bills, transport, communications, equipment, disability aids, assistive technology, medical care and personal care. This list is not exhaustive in any way. Our adult service users report to us as being unable to survive independently and having to rely on family support and food banks or go without necessities such as adequate heating and food. For many, budget 2026 was devastating, leaving them more than \u20ac1,200 worse off per year.  The role of the Department of Social Protection is understandably pivotal in ensuring that people with disabilities are lifted out of poverty and can achieve financial independence. The introduction of a cost-of-disability payment is long overdue. The Indecon report was published in 2021 and has still not been actioned but we welcome the commitment to do so in budget 2026. We believe that a rights-based approach is needed to shift the mindset from, \"Do you qualify?\" to \"What do you need to live equally?\"  Our recent pre-budget submission to the Department of Social Protection addresses some of the core issues and calls on it to provide for a cost-of-disability payment in budget 2027; provide an emergency payment for 2026 of \u20ac400; deliver a meaningful increase in social protection welfare rates; provide additional supports for people with disabilities to address the energy and fuel crisis; and develop concrete measures to promote the employment of people with disabilities. I will be happy to expand on these points later.  Action is needed across all Departments, not just the Department of Social Protection, to create a more level playing field and enable people with disabilities to achieve financial independence on an equal basis with others. In that respect, we welcome the commitment in the national human rights strategy for disabled people for a whole-of-government approach to disability rights, ensuring each Department will play its part.  I will hand over to \u00c1ine Dunne from Rehab Group Shannon, who will tell the committee something of her lived experience of disability and trying to achieve financial independence. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms \u00c1ine Dunne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms \u00c1ine Dunne  Good morning. I thank the committee for the invitation to speak today. I am from Shannon in County Clare and I am here to share my story as a person with a disability who is visually impaired and has a learning difficulty. I am proud to live in my own house, which I rent from Clare County Council. I pay my own bills, but the cost of living is getting harder. My electricity bills are getting higher all the time. Food is also getting more expensive, and I cannot afford a lot of the food I like. I work 19.5 hours a week on a community employment scheme with Enable Ireland. I would be worried I might lose some of my disability allowance, which I rely on, if I did extra work. The system keeps me trapped on a very low income. At the same time, living with a disability is expensive. I have to pay \u20ac20 per month for my prescription charges and I am also charged \u20ac30 to get my necessary blood tests every three months, even though I have a medical card. Because I cannot drive, I also have to pay for taxis to get to my medical appointments in Nenagh every six months, as public transport does not work for me to get there. I often have to pay for taxis to go out with friends, as public transport is not reliable and with my visual impairment, I do not always feel safe.  I am one of the lucky ones. I have my council house, but it needs work to keep me safe. For example, right now, I need to install a handrail in my shower to prevent me from falling. I do not have the extra money to pay for this, but I would have to wait a long time for the council to do the work. I also have to pay \u20ac700 per year to get my grass cut as the council will not do it, and I cannot do it myself. There is no money left at the end of the week after paying bills and buying food. I recently joined a c\u00e9il\u00ed club, but there are also costs and it is expensive. I am doing my best to manage, but the current system is not working. I urgently need a cost-of-disability payment so that I can be financially independent and live the life I want. I thank the committee for listening. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Joan Carthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Joan Carthy  I thank the committee for the opportunity to address it today on behalf of the Irish Wheelchair Association. I want to frame this discussion clearly as a policy issue concerning the State's obligation under Article 28 of the UNCRPD, namely, the right of people with disabilities to an adequate standard of living and to social protection. From a policy perspective, counting the cost requires a recognition that people with disabilities experience structurally higher living costs. These are not discretionary expenses but are essential expenditures linked to participation, including transport, personal assistance, healthcare, assistive technology and accessible housing. However, current policy does not consistently account for these additional costs in systematic or evidence-based ways. As a result, income supports frequently fall short of enabling financial independence, instead reinforcing income inadequacy.  There is also a clear policy gap in how we approach employment. While labour market participation is a stated objective, existing systems can create disincentives to work, particularly where access to essential supports is conditional on income thresholds. A policy framework that effectively penalises employment by risking the loss of supports is inconsistent with both Article 28 and the broader activation goals.  In addition, access to appropriate housing remains a critical structural barrier. The limited supply of accessible and adaptable housing constrains choice, independence and financial security for people with disabilities. This is not solely a housing issue. It is a cross-cutting failure of planning, design standards and investment policy. From a policy standpoint, delivering on Article 28 requires a shift from minimum income maintenance to a comprehensive model of economic inclusion.  This includes developing and implementing a robust methodology to measure the additional cost of disability and inform policy and budget decisions; ensuring income supports are adequate and indexed to reflect real living costs; reforming employment and social protection systems so that work is always financially viable and does not result in the loss of essential supports; accelerating investment in wheelchair accessible housing and transport infrastructure; and embedding the meaningful participation of people with disabilities in policy design and evaluation.  Ultimately, financial independence is not an aspirational goal, but a rights-based obligation. Until public policy ensures that people with disabilities can achieve an adequate standard of living without experiencing disproportionate financial hardship, the State will not be fully meeting its commitments under Article 28.  I will now pass on to Mr. Lynott to talk about his lived experience. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Conor Lynott","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Conor Lynott  Dia dhaoibh ar maidin. Ba mhaith liom mo bhu\u00edochas a ghabh\u00e1il as ucht an deis seo a fh\u00e1il labhairt le coiste an Oireachtais. I hold a degree in history and philosophy from UCD and a first-class honours master\u2019s degree in library and information studies, and I am an author. I am also an incoming clerical officer at the National Disability Authority. By any metric, I am an ambitious professional. Yet, under Article 28 of the UNCRPD in Ireland, my ambition is structurally penalised.  For the past year, I sat in a psychological deadlock, resisting entering the workforce because financial support only existed as long as you accepted a dependent, restricted role. If I advanced, I risked a catastrophic cliff edge by losing my disability allowance and its vital role as a gateway to other crucial disability supports, not least the telephone allowance, fuel allowance and so on.  Higher education funded my academic personal assistance, PA, but that support completely vanishes in employment. Instead, the Employment Equality Acts place the onus on employers, where the cost of personal assistance is routinely dismissed as a \"disproportionate burden\". Across the Civil Service, I have encountered the same misguided institutional wisdom that workplace independent living support is akin to hiring two people for the same job. This happens because we lack a centralised, multipurpose disability fund shared across all Departments. When I sought economic options, the system shut the door.  Enterprise Ireland restricts funding if it is perceived as a vehicle for personal financial independence rather than a mass export employment business. Furthermore, my application for the back to work enterprise allowance, BTWEA, was denied by the Department of Social Protection and it stated, \"Market rank suggests your business is an already existing entity with a customer base, which, for that reason, is not suitable for the BTWEA.\"  Success in any enterprise comes with the fear that I would lose my safety net and would not have the wealth to outrun the inflated costs of cerebral palsy. The economic vulnerability is worsened by volatile policy decisions such as removing the Christmas disability allowance bonus in budget 2026. While long-term measures like the free travel pass are preferred, short-term income remains significant for those below the poverty line. Crucially, cutting this missed a vital opportunity for the ESRI to gather research and utilise the allowance like a live pilot study, tracking what a permanent cost-of-living payment looked like on an individual budget level.  Financial independence requires options. Our State limits those options because it views disability exclusively through the narrow lens of social welfare and healthcare. I have pressed ahead anyway, but no citizen should have to risk their survival to fulfil their potential. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maurice Quinlivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank Ms Carthy and Mr. Lynott for their opening statements. I propose that we publish the opening statements to the committee's website. Is that agreed? Agreed.  I will now invite members of the committee to put their questions. When I call members to speak, I ask that they adhere to the agenda items that are scheduled for discussion. Members have seven minutes for both questions and answers. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Laura Harmon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Laura Harmon  I thank all the witnesses here this morning, particularly those who have told us of their personal experiences and stories and highlighted the hidden costs associated with the cost of disability, which many may not be aware of. It is very clear from all of the contributions that we need a whole-of-government approach and a rights-based approach to addressing this. Ms Costello from the Rehab Group mentioned the whole-of-government approach. Could she elaborate on that in terms of what it looks like from a rights-based perspective? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Emer Costello","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Emer Costello  In respect of the idea of addressing the cost of disability, it is incumbent on the Department of Social Protection to make sure that there is a payment and that people's rights under Article 28 are vindicated in that way. It is also important that all Departments assume responsibility.  We outlined some of the costs there are in terms of transport, housing and medical costs. It is really important that there be joined-up thinking across the board. Public transport in particular is a huge obstacle to people. If someone cannot get to a job, cannot get out to meet people socially or engage in their community and participate, they are completely excluded, so transport is a really important issue.  Similarly, there are many hidden health costs that people with disabilities face. They very often have increased medical costs. We heard from Ms Dunne about having to pay \u20ac20 for her blood tests, which she should not have to but does. There are also prescription charges and taxis to and from medical appointments because the doctors are not available in Shannon or Limerick where she is based. All of these issues are hugely important.  There must be a co-ordinated approach right across the board, particularly to the employment of people with disabilities, ensuring that they have the right to work, are not afraid to lose any of their benefits and can continue to live the lives of their choosing. That is what is important. To do that, we need a whole-of-government approach. It is not just the remit of one Department, but of all of the Government.  While we welcome the commitment that is in the human rights strategy and know that the Taoiseach has established the task force, it is quite important that these matters be advanced in the lifetime of this human rights strategy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Laura Harmon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Laura Harmon  In terms of those hidden costs, some of which Ms Dunne and others mentioned, could Ms Dunne outline more how those impact her? We mentioned transport and health costs. I presume that there are repairs to housing as well. How do the costs vary on a monthly basis?  Would any of the witnesses like to comment on the income disregard and the impact of that? What needs to change there? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms \u00c1ine Dunne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms \u00c1ine Dunne  Transport has hidden costs for rural travel. The free travel pass only works if there is a bus or train running when and where you need it. Due to my visual impairment, I cannot drive, so I depend on my parents, who are getting older, or I have to pay for taxis, which are very expensive. Public transport options between rural areas and towns like Nenagh are often limited. There is a massive extra cost that non-disabled workers do not have to think about.  My doctor was based in Limerick. He moved all his stuff to Nenagh. I did a trial run on the public transport with my mother. The bus was at 6 o'clock and it did not turn up. The next bus was not until 9 o'clock and I would not have got home to my house until after midnight. If it was in the wintertime, it would be pitch dark. I have to go every six months, so I have to go in the wintertime. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Conor Lynott","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Conor Lynott  I wish to raise this thing about disability income disregard. We have to realise that disability payment is given on the grounds of disabilities. It does not disappear when you has a job. There is this idea that it disappears when people have a job. We should still have that specialised disability fund available because that is separate to your wages. That is specifically designed to fund the additional costs of disability that we are talking about here. At the moment, when the income disregard is put into place, that means that the wages are expected to fund everything, including the cost of disability. That should not be the case. There still should be a specialised disability fund designed to fund the cost that we are talking about. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Michael O'Flanagan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Michael O'Flanagan  To go back to the initial question around the additional cost piece, for our community the big item issue is access to services, therapies and so on and families accessing those privately. That has an additional cost. In his opening statement, Mr. Carroll referenced our Same Chance report, which referenced the autism tax that families experience or is burdened upon them as a result of not getting access to public services. For example, for many of our families, there might be two or three children in the household with autistic needs who may require access to speech and language therapy, occupational therapy or psychological services. On average, those cost between \u20ac120 and \u20ac160 per session. The initial assessment is even more expensive. That has a bigger impact on the child accessing a school placement.  We saw the roll-out of the in-school therapy programme. While 45 special schools will have in-school therapy supports, that needs to be rolled out across autism classes within mainstream schooling and mainstream schooling in and of itself. By families not accessing those therapies and so on, they are burdened with those additional costs. I sometimes take umbrage with the concept of the term \"hidden costs\" because they are very visible costs that we have all referenced throughout time such as, for example, the housing adaption grant. Many of our community members have to pay the additional cost upfront on those pieces either themselves or the contractor as such. In the absence of having those financial supports, the individual may not been in a position to get those housing adaptations. Those are two quick points. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Joan Carthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Joan Carthy  There needs to be an overall reform in relation to social protection. Regarding the payments people get, whether it is disability allowance, and the disregard, which is causing a huge problem, we are looking at people who can hold onto their medical card for three years and their travel pass for five years now. That is just a false sense of security because nothing changes after those three years. While the Government is pushing that kind of narrative that you can hold onto your benefits, you really cannot. You can onto them for three years. Again, it is a real false sense of security for people with disabilities. People are simply not feeling comfortable in relation to taking up employment and are being disincentivised all the time. There are lots of other bits and pieces that are related to taking up employment because everything is means-tested. We need to move that to what people need to be able to work or live their lives rather than how much one earns. It is not even just as the individual but is looking at family income. We need to be looking at what the individual's income on its own is, rather than taking family income into account "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aisling Dempsey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aisling Dempsey  I thank the Cathaoirleach. I thank all the witnesses for being here. It is great to see the organisations represented and, slightly more importantly, to hear the lived experience of the service users and from the communities to get that full sense of understanding of what this means to them. From Ms Dunne, I really got the importance of this cost of disability payment and equally as important is the removal of those additional costs. Senator Harmon has touched on this a good bit already but I wish to follow up on it. It is about that \u20ac20 prescription cost and all those little things that add up, as well as the housing. I am quite shocked about the housing. In my own county council in Meath, it uses the UD+ design for a lot of its housing now. It is the leader in age friendly measures across the country and is well used to the universal design. I do not see how it would allocate a house to somebody that was not suited to their needs without the maintenance being done, a grab rail being in the shower and all those things. It just seems bizarre. I ask Ms Dunne to tell me a little bit about that. Would she have to apply for a housing adaption grant to get that done even though they are aware that she probably got the house based on disability rather than income? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms \u00c1ine Dunne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms \u00c1ine Dunne  I am not sure what I would have to do. My circumstances have changed. My health has got a bit worse since I moved. I have been in the house for six years but my health has got worse. It is hard to do. I do not know where to start regarding what to apply for. I do not----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aisling Dempsey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aisling Dempsey  Everything is a battle. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms \u00c1ine Dunne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms \u00c1ine Dunne  I am visually impaired. When I first applied for my disability allowance, I was turned down three times by the Department of Social Protection. Three times, it told me that I was not disabled enough. I am blind in my left eye, and I was told that. That just shows how ignorant people are. Telling somebody who blind in one eye that they are not disabled enough really hurt me. I do not trust sometimes because I have been pushed back and let down so many times. I have lost trust in certain people. It is just hard. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aisling Dempsey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aisling Dempsey  I am sorry to hear that. Does Ms Costello wish to come in? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Emer Costello","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Emer Costello  Ms Dunne might say something else. She has gone to the council to get repairs done to her house. Does Ms Dunne wish to talk about that? She said it is like talking to the wall. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms \u00c1ine Dunne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms \u00c1ine Dunne  Yes. I ring to say that I need this and that done. I could be waiting weeks for it to be done. I had to pay for it. When I first moved into the house, my roof was covered in moss and my gutters were covered. I was in the house for a year and the council said it would do it. I had to pay \u20ac500 out of my own money to pay for somebody to clean, even though the council said it should have been done before I moved in. When I said that to the council, it responded by saying it never said that. It has gone back on its word. I had to fork out \u20ac500 of my own money to pay somebody to clean it for me even though the council should be doing it because it is my landlord. It was the same for cutting my lawn. I was quoted \u20ac700 for the year to cut my lawn by somebody, which I would have to pay out of my own money. I should not have to be forking out that money to pay that. It is unfair. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aisling Dempsey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aisling Dempsey  Ms Dunne does not need it. Is that the experience of many of Rehab Group's service users? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Emer Costello","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Emer Costello  That is the experience of many of the adults who use our services. We do regular focus groups with people for our pre-budget submissions. The kinds of stories that we hear back are that they are not living in suitable accommodation and they cannot afford the adaptions. Regarding the housing adaption grant, Ms Carthy would be more expert on this than I am. There are huge issues with accessing sufficient financing, getting it on time and working through it with local authorities. In the quotes that we have provided to the committee, we have people saying that they go to the Society of St. Vincent de Paul for food vouchers. Some people said that on occasion they have gone to food banks because they are faced with these choices. As has been said here by many people, it is under Article 28 of the UNCRPD.  We now have a national human rights strategy for disabled people as well. People should have access to food, heating and an adequate income as a right and not because the Department of Social Protection deems that it is something that should be given. That is what we mean when we say we need a rights-based approach. We need the Department of Social Protection and other Departments to ask what they need to do to ensure that people can live equally in society. We do not need them to ask how someone qualifies for a payment and then for the person to be told they do not.  We had an advocacy conference in March. One of the speakers, Dr. Austin O'Carroll , who might be known to some of the members, said that the idea of a cost-of-disability payment is a little bit anathema in a way because it implies that people who have a disability actually incur a cost. When we come up with the payment, maybe we can come up with a more equitable title for it as well. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aisling Dempsey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aisling Dempsey  In the paperwork, the additional cost of having a disability is given as 22% to 33% of disposable household income. Are those covered by the witnesses' organisations in that range, or are they above or below it? I will start with Mr. O'Flanagan. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Michael O'Flanagan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Michael O'Flanagan  It depends on a family's circumstances and so on. For example, if we look at families where one parent becomes a full-time carer, which is my situation, there is a loss of income from that particular employment that was coming into that household. Not everybody who is autistic, or who has a child who is autistic, has to give up work to go into that caring role, but it sometimes is the case. That is a particular factor, but it also depends on the needs of the child. If they need those kinds of therapeutic supports, they can cost significant amounts. As someone in our Same Chance report noted, it is like having an additional mortgage to meet those costs. The social pursuits of these individuals are also affected.  If I look at my family's situation, my brother, who is 17 this year, has an intellectual disability. He received the domiciliary care allowance, DCA, from the time he was three years old right up until last year. We subsequently had to apply for disability allowance for him. However, for families who receive the DCA, it is \u20ac380 a month. It went up by \u20ac20 in the last budget. As we said at the national economic dialogue on Monday, that increase of \u20ac20 did not necessarily cut the mustard for what actual costs were incurred by families. My brother has particular sensory needs, and we probably spend on average over \u20ac100 a week on sensory products for him to play with, as such. It could be shampoo, and he loves Fairy Liquid, for example, but those things cost, and they are additional costs that are specific to his needs.  Going back to the Deputy's original question, what those margins and costs are depends on a family's circumstances. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Adrian Carroll","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Adrian Carroll  For many autistic people, some of the things they might look for support with are access to sensory clothing or adaptations that can help meet their sensory needs. Examples include clothing and food, as Mr. O'Flanagan mentioned, but also different things like noise-cancelling headphones and other things that might help people to navigate the public environment as well.  Another thing worth mentioning is that a lot of autistic people have significant health needs in addition to being autistic. For instance, many people in our community also experience chronic health needs. These carry additional costs because they may need to access other therapeutic supports, healthcare and medical treatments.  Many autistic people also have significant mental health needs. For many autistic adults, due to the barriers people experience accessing mental health services writ large and because there are no public pathways to accessing or securing an autism diagnosis or follow-on supports within the HSE, they incur additional costs accessing these supports privately, as well as other supports like counselling, psychotherapy and mental health services. For many autistic adults across the community, those needs are co-occurring to their own experience of being autistic and incur additional costs. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Seamus Healy  I thank the representatives from the organisations for coming in this morning and giving us the benefit of their opening statements, which are very helpful. I give special thanks to Ms Dunne and Mr. Lynott for giving us their lived experience of living with a disability. Both said that they were probably the lucky ones, in that many other individuals would not have either a house or employment.  Under the charter, the State has an obligation to ensure that people with disabilities can live independently. That means access to employment and housing among a whole range of other things. To do that, people need to have an adequate income. There are such a range of figures out there in relation to what the cost-of-disability payment is and what it should be. The Department had a figure of \u20ac11,700. There is also a figure out there of 52% to 59% of household income. There is the figure of \u20ac488 to \u20ac555 per week also. In the witnesses' experiences of the people they deal with, are there categories within the disability family that have particular ranges of need in relation to income?  Regarding employment, and as Ms Costello said, we probably have the lowest rate of employment among people with disabilities in Europe. Even where they are in employment, they tend to be in part-time and low-paid jobs, generally because of the fear that people will lose all or part of their disability allowance and some of their secondary payments. This has to be addressed, but what are the other main barriers that are there in relation to employment for people with disabilities?  I also have a question for the representative from the Irish Wheelchair Association. We regularly come across the lack of availability of wheelchairs, particularly motorised wheelchairs. There are very long delays and in some cases, they are not available at all.  There is a big difficulty in relation to housing. What particular measures would the witnesses recommend to see if we could actually get to a situation where people with disabilities have a realistic chance of getting to live in a local authority house in a reasonable period of time? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Joan Carthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Joan Carthy  I will respond to some of those questions. As to the cost-of-disability payment, a lot of the organisations have come together and agreed on the implementation of a universal payment to start off at \u20ac55 a week. That is really just to try to get something moving forward, but we also feel that there needs to be really constructive consultation so that we can look at what the Deputy is talking about in terms of the different levels of need. There are some people who would not have a huge extra cost of disability, and we then have other people who, because of their disabilities, would encounter a much higher cost of disability. There is a lot of work that needs to be done around that second piece.  Looking at the housing piece, we have been pushing for many years for a change in Part M of the building regulations so that there is an introduction of a percentage of universal design plus housing. Universal design plus housing is wheelchair liveable housing. At the moment, the regulation just stipulates that all dwellings should be built as wheelchair accessible.  All that means is that a person can get in the front door, can get into the kitchen and the sitting room, and there is a bathroom downstairs, which is never big enough for anybody to use. However, they cannot live in those homes. The councils have targets for people with disabilities and a lot of the councils look as if they are exceeding their targets, but part of the problem is that it is covering all people with disabilities. There are a lot of people who would not have a physical disability who are being housed and people who have mental health issues who are being housed, which is great, but there is no change for wheelchair users because the type of house they need is not being built. Until we make that change and get a percentage of those houses into the regulations, nothing is going to change for people with physical disabilities in that space.  As Ms Costello said, the housing grant is a major problem. While it was reviewed two years ago, the amount that has been made available does not meet building costs at all, so people are left trying to find the extra amount of money. That just does not happen. Going back to the cost of disability, given the income of a household with somebody with a disability, whether it is social protection income or employment income, they are often starting off at a minus amount of money because of the money that they are spending on specific things for the individual with the disability as well as overall heating costs, transport costs and everything else that goes with that. There are lots of different pieces that go with being in that space.  The Deputy mentioned the lack of motorised wheelchairs. From my understanding, the issue is not necessarily the lack of motorised wheelchairs, but the lack of funding that is being put in through the HSE for those people who are entitled to it. They are waiting months, sometimes even a year or two, for their specialised wheelchairs. A lot of that is very much down to funding in different regions rather than the lack of availability of equipment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Emer Costello","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Emer Costello  I will address the question on barriers to employment because it is a hugely important issue. I agree that a lot of people are either not employed or are underemployed. We talked about the earnings disregard earlier. That has the impact of people who are in employment not looking for career progression. For example, people on three-day weeks are not wanting to work five-day weeks, or people are not actually going for promotion because they find that they are inhibited.  There are other barriers as well. We feel that one of the big obstacles is the lack of support with the wage subsidy scheme. I know it was reviewed recently but the members of this committee will be very familiar with Rehab's views on the increase of rates. There are seven employers who employ more than 17 people with disabilities. Last year was the first increase that was received in over four years. The increase for enterprises with more than 17 people was 55 cent, notwithstanding the fact that there has been more than \u20ac3 of an increase in the national minimum wage. There should be a link with the wage subsidy scheme to the national minimum wage. We have made a submission on that in our pre-budget submission.  There is another aspect of the national minimum wage. Something that our students from the National Learning Network, NLN, and the people who use the services of RehabCare say to us all the time is that they wish that they could avail of the wage subsidy scheme to find employment but they are restricted by the 15 hours a week. We are looking for the 15 hours a week to be reduced to eight hours. That is in line with any of the policies in relation to work. The work and access scheme accepts that working eight hours is considered to be like a full week's work and the person can access its grants. There are lots of means by which the person can access supports but it is actually really difficult.  A final thing to say on barriers to employment is that there needs to be more disability awareness training for employers as well as encouragement of employers to employ people with disabilities, including highlighting the benefits of it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Clonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","memberCode":"Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Tom Clonan  I thank Deputy Toole for allowing me to come in. I apologise that I have to do a Commencement matter in the Chamber at 10.30 a.m. It is on a disability-related matter with the Minister.  I am so sorry that everybody here has to tell their personal stories. We as a community have to do this over and over again. From experience, we quantitatively understand the cost of disability. Qualitatively, though, there is also the stress, the fear, the worry and the moral distress. I was really struck by the phrase Mr. Lynott used of being \"structurally penalised\" for being disabled. It is shocking. It might sound like an overstatement but this is an ableist state. Did Ms Costello say that the ESRI said that the additional cost of disability, which is the additional cost before a person buys clothes or pays the ESB bill, was \u20ac488 to \u20ac550 per week? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Joan Carthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Joan Carthy  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Clonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","memberCode":"Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Tom Clonan  That is \u20ac25,376 to \u20ac28,600. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Emer Costello","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Emer Costello  Those are the figures that the ESRI came out with. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Clonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","memberCode":"Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Tom Clonan  The disability allowance is just \u20ac13,000 a year, so it might not even reach half the cost of disability. I have been saying that the disability allowance should be a non-means-tested universal payment. Quite clearly, it needs to be doubled.  We are all living the dream, supposedly, but in the witnesses' experience, what is the resistance on the part of our fellow citizens who can make these decisions in government and in the various agencies? What is the cause of their resistance to honouring the obligations as set out in Article 28? That is my first question.  I am sorry to pick on Ms Costello, and this might not be an easy question to answer, but from her experience as a former Member of the European Parliament, does she think we are different from our European partners culturally when it comes to disability? We had the European Disability Forum here and it said that, in most European Union countries, income and disability allowance were disaggregated and there was no link made between them. We impose this kind of Dickensian threshold. It creates a fear in people, with them not going for promotion, including an ambitious young professional. I am embarrassed to hear Mr. Lynott say that he cannot self-actualise in the way that all other citizens can because of a structural inequality, or worse, a structural penalty. A barrier can sometimes be perceived as a passive thing but penalisation is an active and premeditated set of punitive arrangements that are imposed on us as a community. This is ableism writ large. I am sorry for the vague questions and I apologise in advance that I have to go. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Conor Lynott","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Conor Lynott  The Senator mentioned resistance. The main resistance is that disability is primarily seen as a healthcare issue or a social welfare issue. The money for disability is primarily coming from those Departments. If we want funding for other areas or outside-the-box thinking about a pioneering kind of funding, then it might have to come from another Department. That is very difficult because another Department will say that it is not part of its remit or not a healthcare issue.  There are several pockets of funding for different things. If people want a wheelchair, there is one sort of funding. If they need healthcare, there is another sort. If it is about university or education, there are all sorts of funding. This is what we mean about the joined-up thinking that needs to happen. Multipurpose disability funding can be agile and flexible.  The Senator asked about culture. I do not think there is much by way of culture. There needs to be more progressive and proactive decision-making. We see the kind of services available in the Scandinavian countries, and there are cultural similarities. I think it is about decision-making rather than culture. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Michael O'Flanagan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Michael O'Flanagan  To go back to the first question on the reticence or reluctance for change to come from the State, politicians, by their very nature, want to make a difference. Everybody who gets into politics wants to see a difference for their constituents and for the country as a whole. The system fears to change. It goes back to balancing the books and so on. We know that all these measures will involve an additional cost, whether it be the in-school therapy programme, the cost-of-disability payment, changes to the adaptation grant or whatever. The list is endless. There can be reticence within the system to change, although not necessarily on the part of individual politicians or Ministers. The national human rights disability strategy is a really important document. Obviously, we signed up to the UNCRPD a number of years back. The latter should not just be seen as an aspirational document; it should be something that we actually put into practice. The national human rights disability strategy is the avenue for that. As we referenced on Monday at the national economic forum, in the forthcoming budget, we should see real meat put on the recommendations and objectives in the national human rights disability strategy. That will be quite telling. This will be the first budget brought in with the national human rights disability strategy in place. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Adrian Carroll","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Adrian Carroll  I will pick up on Senator Clonan's second question. One of the things that is worth mentioning with regard to the Same Chance report, which the Commission has focused on as relating to disability and disabled people's experiences of poverty and social exclusion, is that recent reports have highlighted that 38% of disabled people experience unemployment and underemployment. That highlights the gap, but it also highlights that 30% of disabled people are at risk of poverty and social exclusion. Those are the parts that we can measure.  Going into the statistics, reports have focused on one matter, which the European Disability Forum also mentioned in a recent human rights report, namely that the Irish experience is particularly stark in the context of employment, poverty and social exclusion. This relates to our national statistics. In the CSO's survey on income and living conditions, we found that 32% of disabled people who were unable to work were at risk of poverty compared with 5.4% of disabled people who are able to work. We also know the impact of the cost of disability and, when those supports are taken away, how much more disabled people are at risk of poverty and social exclusion, when those supports are taken away,. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Joan Carthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Joan Carthy  The resistance comes from the lack of foresight in seeing people with disabilities and the money that has to be spent on them as an investment in the future rather than just as what is happening now and the amount of money that has to be paid out. If the money is there for people to start living independently and become employed, if that is where they can go, they become taxpayers, but their health is also being invested in, which means that less health funding is needed in the future. It is more about the lack of foresight and investment in people with disabilities. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Margaret Murphy O'Mahony","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Margaret Murphy O'Mahony  I thank the witnesses for giving up their time and coming here today, especially those who shared their personal stories with us. It is not easy. It is awful that they have to do that, but I appreciate them sharing their stories. For us to gain an insight into something, it is great to speak with people who have lived experience. In that context, I thank all the witnesses.  To be truly independent, people need to be financially secure and financially independent. Today's discussion is appropriate. Much of what I wanted to ask has been asked by my learned colleagues, so I only have a quick question for the witnesses. I will start with AsIAm. What steps can be taken to reduce barriers to employment and improve workforce participation for autistic people? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Michael O'Flanagan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Michael O'Flanagan  In our Same Chance report, we identified two types of barrier. One is getting employment in the first instance and engaging with the employment services that exist around the country. The second is when an autistic person is in a job and some of the barriers that might be present. For us, it is about getting more autistic people into employment. That is about acknowledging the barriers that exist in the first instance, and working with organisations and companies. Part of the work that we do in our employment team involves going to businesses, speaking to them about the autistic needs of an individual and identifying how they can make their services more accessible. We heard earlier about some of the schemes that are in place and employers not knowing the full extent of the schemes available. As a result, there is a need to educate people.  There is another element which comes from employers, namely situations where there is almost a fear of hiring an autistic individual or a disabled individual because of the misperception to the effect that the employer might be subject to more litigious action if, for example, reasonable accommodations are not put in place. Employers have a legal obligation to put reasonable accommodations in place where they are needed. Education is needed. This would involve organisations going into businesses and demystifying what is involved and getting them to actively work with us. In AsIAm, we have a number of one-to-one coaching supports, where we go into businesses and support them along that journey. We have linked in with business organisations and representative groups over the past year, with IBEC and with insurance companies, to support them in coming on a journey with us. In summary, it is about education, training and removing those figures. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Adrian Carroll","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Adrian Carroll  For many people in our community, barriers can be experienced in their jobs, for example, in the context of navigating workplace structures, but also being in environments or situations which might not be particularly accessible to autistic people, whether it is bright lights or an open workplace environment. People have said that they have benefited from the move to working from home and would like more supports from employers that will help to meet their sensory needs. The other thing that might be mentioned is that many of the reasonable accommodations that autistic people request from employers do not necessarily incur a large financial cost. It might involve an adjustment that they might make to an employment practice or a policy, for example. It might make the difference between a person being included or not. It could include working from home or flexible working hours. Employers should be empathetic about any supports that might be required in the context of, for example, healthcare.  Employers must also realise that if employees are autistic and have occupational health needs, they have a double effect on their ability to navigate the workplace, perform their duties and progress in their career afterwards, if that makes sense. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Margaret Murphy O'Mahony","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Margaret Murphy O'Mahony  I thank Mr. Carroll. Mr. Lynott is obviously an ambitious young man. Fair play to him. What better supports policy wise could be brought in to encourage entrepreneurship or ambition for people with disabilities? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Conor Lynott","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Conor Lynott  Self-employment for people with disabilities needs to be looked at. The mandate of Enterprise Ireland is to create mass employment, encourage exports and things like that, but some kind of self-employment fund would help. If we think about it, being self-employed allows those with disabilities to work their own hours and manage their energy. With cerebral palsy, energy is a big thing. Things like sitting up straight can be physically tiring. Self-employed people who have a disability can control their own hours and have total control over the adaption of their workplaces. They do not have to negotiate with employers. They can do it all for themselves. Self-employment is one thing.  When it comes to traditional employment, one of the big things is independent living support in the workplace. Where I live, one of my neighbours went to college like me. She said she had not bothered going into the workplace in a traditional sense because she cannot get help with the bathroom or anything like that. The burden of those costs is entirely on the employer. Obviously, it depends on how big the employer is and how much of a budget they have. The burden for independent living supports needs to move away from the employer. It needs to be a part of this multipurpose disability fund that can help and give people the independent living support they need to enter the workforce. Those are my thoughts in that regard. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gillian Toole","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gillian-Toole.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Gillian-Toole.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Gillian Toole  I welcome all the witnesses. I thank them for meeting with us. I also welcome those in the Public Gallery. I wish to make a special mention to Sue and John from the Rehab Group in Ratoath, County Meath. I commend local employers, Sweeney\u2019s Centra and Ratoath dry cleaners, who provide employment to some of the group. I am honoured that they have travelled in. I appreciate the effort the witnesses all made to get here today, because, as some of them mentioned, there are systemic barriers, especially with regard to public services, accessibility, etc.  My first question relates to those barriers. As mentioned, when it comes to the cost of disability, each person has unique needs. There can then be common needs that systems and services, such as the health service, local authorities and county councils, can help to address. There are gaps in that regard, however. I will start with Ms Dunne. She referred to public transport. From her experience with the focus group and her friends in the Rehab Group, what things would help with public transport? I will move along to Mr. Carroll and Mr. O\u2019Flanagan and then to Ms Carthy and Mr. Lynott in sequence regarding the gaps in public services, access to living independently and today\u2019s subject of where disability costs arise. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms \u00c1ine Dunne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms \u00c1ine Dunne  Public transport should be reliable. It should not depend on anything. That is unfair to people with a disability. I have a free travel pass, but if I need to go somewhere, I sometimes cannot use it because there is no bus. I have to be dropped somewhere and then picked up or I have to get a taxi. It is not accessible. Everywhere should be accessible to people with disabilities, regardless of whether they have a bus pass. It should be reliable. My appointments are in Nenagh, but the buses between Nenagh and Limerick are every three hours. That is not very good. In the wintertime, it is dark by 5 p.m. The last time, the bus did not show up and the next bus was another three hours after that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gillian Toole","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gillian-Toole.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Gillian-Toole.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Gillian Toole  Has Ms Dunne ever been asked how her journey was by, say, Bus \u00c9ireann \u2013 it may not be the provider in this instance \u2013 the National Transport Authority or any of the other organisations involved? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms \u00c1ine Dunne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms \u00c1ine Dunne  No, they have never asked me. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gillian Toole","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gillian-Toole.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Gillian-Toole.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Gillian Toole  I will move to Mr. Lynott and Ms Carthy, and then to Mr. Carroll and Mr. O\u2019Flanagan. In terms of surveying, are their organisations ever asked how their transport plans are and what can be done to help improve things? Ultimately, that is where the extra costs lie. If the services do not meet the needs, people end up going private more often. Do the witnesses have an opinion to express in that regard? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Joan Carthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Joan Carthy  Yes, there are a couple of different things. Most of the transport companies have disability user groups and we have representatives on them. A lot of the feedback comes through those groups. It is about going to the next step beyond that, however, because there are huge issues in relation to where the buses are, especially for those living in rural areas.  On top of that, from a financial point of view, people with disabilities feel things are going backwards. As members will all be aware, many years ago, we had a mobility allowance that went towards the extra cost of transport. That was taken away with the promise that something else would be put in place, but that never happened. The transport grant to help people get their first car was also taken away with nothing else put in place, and here we are ten years later talking about the implementation of a cost of disability. There is a lack of joined-up thinking about how policies are working.  At the moment, the Government is looking at reviewing the disabled driver scheme. What we are hearing is that while it is putting in an adaption scheme, which seems to be a positive piece, it is looking at taking away the revenue incentives. Therefore, people will not be able to buy a car in the first place. The worry is with this thinking that we are moving forward and reviewing different schemes, but people with disabilities actually end up suffering at the end of these reviews. That is the piece we need to be looking into. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Adrian Carroll","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Adrian Carroll  I completely echo what Ms Carthy has said about barriers to accessing transport. Many autistic people and families share similar barriers in accessing public transport in the first instance. While Dublin Bus and Irish Rail have improved their practices and policies quite a bit, we know they are still like a patchwork quilt across the country in terms of people\u2019s experiences.  The other point that is worth mentioning and picking up relates to access to independent living. When it comes to our community\u2019s experiences in this regard, there are a number of pieces to the puzzle. We echo what a lot of organisations have indicated and much of what has been said across this room around access to personal assistance and personalised budgets. For many autistic people, a big part is having the services in the first instance but also having the freedom to be able to make choices around how they wish to access those supports, for example, as being provided with a budget to access healthcare and personal supports.  Regarding PA hours, as my colleague has mentioned, it is also really about making sure that there is a seamless transition between work, employment and community life. We would also echo many of our community's points around legislating for the right to personal assistants. The final point is that in the last year AsIAm has opened two communities or hubs that cover the two CHO areas around Galway, Mayo and Roscommon and around south Dublin, Kildare and west Wicklow. That been a really positive development because it allows people to get supports in their own community but it also covers that point about independent living and tackling the isolation and the social exclusion part of it. We know a lot of disabled people can experience loneliness, isolation and barriers to mental health and well-being. These are something we would like to see brought out more across the country as well. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Michael O'Flanagan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Michael O'Flanagan  I will make one point going back to the accessibility of services and so on. We have the public sector duty on the Statute Book, which speaks to public services being accessible for individuals who are disabled. Our public services are not meeting the standard that is envisaged within that legislation that goes back to the UNCRPD. One example is the school transport system for members of our community, and the inaccessibility of that particular service. That scheme in and of itself needs to be looked at in its entirety from a procurement point of view but also in terms of the roll-out of it across the country. Many of our community members and families do not have access to school transport. The school bus is not appropriate for them due to the sensory needs of the child and sometimes the taxi services that are provided could have two or three other children in that car with different, almost competing, needs. Some might require quiet space, and if the child is having a meltdown, for example, or is overwhelmed in that space, that can then have an impact on another child. That scheme is an example of where public services from a school transport perspective are not meeting the needs. A grant was introduced a couple of years back for parents, which they can tap into at the end of the year if they did not avail of either the taxi or the bus services, but that is a year-end payment that is given in lieu. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Conor Lynott","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Conor Lynott  To make a small point about Irish Rail and the DART, at the moment people have to rely on staff to get a ramp out for them. That requires calling in advance and often you have to build up a relationship with the staff at your local DART station. Comparing that to when I went abroad to Paris, for example, you had a bus and a train. On the buses in France, and on the Tube in London, there was a button to press and the ramp would automatically come out. You did not have to rely on the staff. You just have to press the button and the ramp would come out. That means that you could do spontaneous travel. Spontaneous travelling, without having to call someone in advance, is a huge part of independence. The Irish Rail trains and the DARTs definitely need to be updated to allow for automatic ramps and that kind of thing. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis na finn\u00e9ithe go l\u00e9ir. The problem seems to be that we do not have the emphasis on participation in society. A number of us were lucky enough to be over at the United Nations where it was dealing with 20 years of the UNCRPD. A general ethos that was coming across the board was the idea of mainstreaming in as much as possible. There was an emphasis on reasonable accommodation just being built in and then on universal design. Not to emphasise medical but that was everything from training from the point of view of doctors or healthcare workers to be aware of how they dealt with people right through to buildings, settings and then beyond that to educational set-ups. That is the issue that is missing. As I think Mr. Lynott said, it is that idea of - I will call it medical or paternalistic - that here are disabled people who we will look after but we will not put all of the pieces together and will get rid of one scheme that probably only so many people could apply for. When dealing with the disabled drivers scheme or disabled passengers, we are into primary medical certificates and who that actually applies to and then there are all those other schemes that were gotten rid off. We need to do something far more comprehensive.  If I go back to the cost of disability, I have over-made this point but I will make it again. There is this idea that there is an acceptance by Government that there is a need to do this because it was given last year and it is being planned for. We have a difficulty in relation to what exactly has been planned for. We have to emphasise that ESRI report. It is \u20ac488 to \u20ac555 but there is also a higher level if we are dealing with more bespoke issues. I think it is up to \u20ac800 a week. That is the reality for people so we are as well to have the real conversation on that. I have no question on that; we just need to see it delivered. It is also delivered across the board. The number of people who have told me this. A particular man came in saying he had always worked and had been very lucky with that and therefore was not on any social welfare payment, but he had other issues. Due to mobility issues, he needed a bespoke pair of shoes. We are talking about a cost upwards of \u20ac1,000 that nobody else could consider unless they were shopping in places where I would not be shopping, for names of shoes I cannot think of. He just needed this as an absolute necessity. That is a cost that most people do not even have to think about, and he probably does not have some of the issues that some of the witnesses have. We just need to be real on that. We need to implement it as soon as possible. We also need to accept that if we actually introduced in-school therapies, as Mr. O'Flanagan and Mr. Carroll pointed out, we would be taking a huge cost off parents.  When we are talking about housing, we also literally go from a point of view of a person been given a full package and full care or nothing. I know local authorities do not always have the task forces in place that are meant be there. Some are better than others on it. In an awful lot of cases we are talking about supplying somebody with a house. That is grand if it is a child within a family setting and there are allowances for that, but they are not the only ones. Ms Dunne put it very well in the sense that she is not looking for a bespoke care package around this; she is just looking for very simple, reasonable accommodations to be made. The system is not even thinking about that because it never does. We know some people will need really intensive residential care and that is not happening either. We know the whole issue relating to the Before We Die group. It is about putting it all together. After all of that, and as usual I spoke for far too long, I get onto the big issue that people have emphasised and that is the idea of work. Mr. Lynott put it well when he spoke about self-employment. Ms Costello and I have spoken many times about the issues with the wage subsidy scheme and how it is not fit for purpose to facilitate employers to employ people with disabilities.  We should have a facility to have something like the wage subsidy scheme for someone who is self-employed but with the added costs that someone without a disability will not have. Then it is the relationship with employers. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maurice Quinlivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  If the Deputy has a question, he will want to leave time for the answer. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  I know. On some level, in fairness, the witnesses have answered most things and have stated strictly what the problems are. If we are talking about employment, it is work and access, the wage subsidy scheme and dealing with that. The Minister of State with responsibility for enterprise, Deputy Alan Dillon, appeared before us. It is that Department building on its relationship with employers from a point of view of ensuring it knows about the schemes but also making sure these schemes work and talking to those who want to be employed and how we actually deliver this. After that diatribe, I will throw it over to Ms Costello, who will have no difficulty in answering that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Emer Costello","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Emer Costello  I thank the Deputy. We have engaged many times on the wage subsidy scheme, which, as the Deputy said, despite the review, is still not fully fit for purpose. We are hopeful that there is a recognition from the Government that it needs further reform and it will be done. We mentioned reducing the number of hours to qualify. That is very important. The rates also need to be linked to the national minimum wage on a graduated basis. The more people a person employs, the greater the supports he or she should receive.  I will mention one programme that might be of interest to this committee. The work placement experience placement programme is a very good programme, but we found that people with disabilities had difficulty in accessing that programme. Rehab Enterprises is working on a pilot scheme with the Department of Social Protection on this scheme, which is working well. That is where a person continues to keep his or her social welfare allowance and get a top-up on it. The person is placed in employment and Rehab Enterprises will support both the employer and the employee over a period of six months. The hope and expectation is that, at the end of that six-month period, the employer would take on the employee. We had called it the work-ready scheme, but we are piloting now under the work placement experience programme. It is working well. It is a small pilot. We would like to see a programme like that mainstreamed. Similarly, the IPS, which----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  We are not always good at mainstreaming pilots. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Emer Costello","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Emer Costello  Yes, but that is what needs to happen now. That programme needs to be rolled out and there need to be more opportunities. I will also mention the IPS. We would be one of the biggest providers of IPS services. That service is particularly under pressure. It needs further investment. It proves to be very successful in placing people who may have mental health difficulties and who need additional supports moving into work. In all of these, we believe that there is a strong social return on investment. It is not just to be seen as a cost to the State. If the money is invested in the people who need these additional supports to live independently and equally, it will in the long run reduce the kind of supports that are needed with later interventions that are so costly. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Adrian Carroll","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Adrian Carroll  I will pick up on Ms Carthy's point and maybe build on what Mr. O'Flanagan said earlier on our employment supports. One of the things we find that pose barriers to autistic people would be in terms of employer mindsets and attitudes. For example, as many of us mentioned this morning, there are still employers who have perceptions around the ability of an autistic person or who someone who has another form of disability to do work. For a lot of people, one of the things we have mentioned relates to Mr. Lynott's point on self-employment. A lot of the paperwork and the requirements are not necessarily conducive to supporting disabled people to work. It is needing that wraparound or in-person support to support people to access self-employment. There might be a role for local enterprise offices to be able to offer that support directly to disabled people.  One of the things we mentioned in terms of the IBEC roadmap for autism employment is that we called for a nationally supported employment programme. For people who are autistic and others who have supports that may mean they face barriers to recruitment and retention, it might offer an opportunity for them to build that relationship with employers in the first instance so that they can have the sense that people get to know each other before a work placement or before they can officially start in a role. It also helps to manage the transition between work and different facets of roles where some people may face difficulties. It might also help to address the barriers, in my experience, in terms of that disclosure and putting yourself out there in front of employers and looking for supports. In many of those situations, those processes or conversations would be had in advance. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  It is about making it easier as regards accessing those supports for employers and employees. The biggest obstacle still is people's fear of losing medical supports or benefits. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Carrigy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Miche\u00e1l Carrigy  I thank the witnesses for all the work that they do representing people across the various communities. The headline is \"counting the cost\". I do not see it as a cost but as an investment. It is not a cost on the State. We are investing in our people. Everyone is entitled to get the same opportunity and chance in life. It is the responsibility of the State to make sure that we put those supports in place.  In regard to financial independence and some of the issues that have come up in recent times, a person with a disability applying for social housing and is working has no income disregard for having a disability when the assessment is being done. That is wrong. That is something that needs to change with the Department of Social Protection. That has to be taken into account when doing the reckonable income and the means with regard to that. You cannot have a situation where someone is eligible but has stopped work and relied on the disability payment to be eligible. If someone is working, that should not go against them in their eligibility for social housing. There needs to be a disregard for the cost of disability built into the social housing application system.  Education was mentioned. It would have been involved and started with our joint committee on autism with regard to third level courses, now in 11 colleges for children with intellectual disabilities and autism. I have made contact with the Department of enterprise where I feel we need to have job coaches in place to work with the colleges, the students and the companies that are providing the employment opportunities and have the support over and back between the college. A great example is Trinity College in Dublin, where up to 40 companies are involved. Hugo MacNeill is the ambassador. A coach is in place who then works and helps people settle into employment and deals with any of the issues. That is something I am working on. I have spoken to the Department of enterprise. I would like to see something in the budget for next year where it would support the 11 staff members in all those colleges and work with the companies and IBEC to give those extra employment opportunities coming out of the college courses.  Article 28 of the UNCRPD recognises the right of persons to an adequate standard of living and social protection. Where are we doing right? Where are the gaps? What are we not doing? We are coming into budget. There was significant extra investment into the Department of children and disability last year. Where are the gaps still? I know there are lots of asks, but for budget 2027, where does the Government need to be identifying as a priority? Will the witnesses touch on those for me, please? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Joan Carthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Joan Carthy  As I said, there are a lot of different priorities but across the board, it is for the cost of disability payment to be put in place. We welcome the work that is being done at the moment but there are fears about what might happen in the budget. Before we get to the budget, there is still a very strong call out from people with disabilities and organisations that a \u20ac400 emergency payment is put in place. While the sun might be shining, the bills are not going away and people are really struggling from the announcements at the last budget.  We are hearing in different areas that the disability sector was the winner last year. Those are the words being used about the budget, which is very concerning. It is also being said that might go against us this year because we had such an uplift last year. In that space, the uplift was in services, which was really needed and very much welcomed, but it must be remembered we were coming from a very low base to start off with so any kind of increment is sunk into the deficits that were there already.  The add on to that is that the uplift in services only impacts about 10% of the disability population. What we are looking for is for that uplift to be continued but we have to look at money in people's pockets so that they do not have to make those choices between eating and heating or whether they can charge up their motorised wheelchairs or hoists or whatever to be able to get out of their house and have some sort of an independent life. We have to make sure we are looking at both sides of how people with disabilities actually live their lives.  The other thing is the importance of getting a payment in place in this year\u2019s budget that will recognise the cost of disability but also an uplift in the disability payments. There is about \u20ac112 difference between the disability payment and where a living wage is at. We are so far behind. There was a \u20ac10 uplift last year, which did not come anywhere near the rising costs of living let alone anything else. Those two things need to be brought into place in this year\u2019s budget along with the \u20ac400 while we are waiting for budget 2027. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Carrigy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Miche\u00e1l Carrigy  Ms Carthy made a comment at the beginning. As a member of a Government party, the sector was quite entitled to that and that is why the funding was put in place. More needs to be put in place. The word \u201cwinner\u201d was in the media----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Joan Carthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Joan Carthy  It was not. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Carrigy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Miche\u00e1l Carrigy  Comments like that should not be made by anybody in this House. A key priority for the Government is its strategy, which we are looking to implement. We are working with the various DPOs to make sure everyone gets the same chance in life. That is the way it should be. I am referring to a report produced by AsIAm when I use those words. That is key. Everyone is entitled to the same opportunities in life to maximise their potential, whatever that may be. It is not about winners; it is about giving everyone that same chance. As someone from a Government party, I want it known that is the conversation we have in our party when we are discussing disabilities. I know the commitment from the Minister of State, Deputy Higgins, and there is a commitment in the programme for Government regarding the cost of disability as well, so I want to put that on the record here. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms \u00c1ine Dunne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms \u00c1ine Dunne  On employment, I am working at the moment. You should not lose any of your benefits if you work extra hours. That is unfair. I would like to work more hours but I am afraid. There should not be any barrier. If you are on the medical card and on disability, that should not stop you from working. They should let you work away and hold onto that because your disability will not change. You will be the same for the rest of your life. I am visually impaired \u2013 nothing will change. My sight is gone and gone forever. I would like to contribute more but if I do that, I would lose out. There should not be a barrier. It should be just be that you can work 20 or 25 hours or however many hours you want. They should not stop or cut any payment or medical card. It should stay the same whether or not you are working. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Michael O'Flanagan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Michael O'Flanagan  I agree with my colleagues around the cost-of-disability payment. It is included in our own pre-budget submission. One thing is use of the word investment. That is a really important word because it is about investing in the lifecycle. Looking at the realities on the ground, like the in-school therapy programme which was mentioned earlier and the importance of that being rolled out to mitigate the cost to parents of having to pay for those additional therapeutic supports for their children or young autistic adolescents, by investing in those particular areas you are setting up individuals for the future to have that same chance in society. For example, of 130 special schools in the country, only a handful have guidance counsellors. That sends a very negative message for parents or guardians who have a child in a special school. We very much welcome the increase in and the expansion of the programmes with those colleges around the country for individuals with an intellectual disability. It is something I have a particular interest in, having a brother with an intellectual disability. A key priority for us is investing in those early-years supports for families, going back to therapeutic supports in particular. That is notwithstanding the cost-of-disability piece, which is very much a given. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Keira Keogh  I thank everyone for their opening statements. I listened to them all but then I had to run off. Apologies if I ask any questions, which have already been asked. This is such an important session. We know the cost of disability can be up to 60%. Ms Dunne spoke very clearly about the unintended consequences that can happen when people go into employment. They can lose their means-tested benefits. I would be interested to hear witnesses' ideas around whether those benefits should be kept and not be means tested. Should there be two years or 18 months of employment before being means tested? What are their opinions on that?  I also have a question on in-kind supports. I am Chair of the Joint Committee on Children and Equality. We have done a lot around child poverty and deprivation. There is also the intersectionality of disability as well. Our disabled community can often be even more at risk of poverty. We heard about the benefits of things like free hot school meals, clothing allocation and things like that. What do the witnesses think in relation to any in-kind supports that would be beneficial? That could be assistive technology, for example. I am thinking of disabled people in Mayo who have to get taxis to go to work because they do not have reliable transport. Would taxi vouchers or something like that be good?  We are probably all in agreement that the cost-of-disability payment should now be called the investment in disability payment. There was a summit with people anticipating this payment in advance of budget 2027. I heard there was quite a difference in opinion there around how to best achieve fairness and equity with this payment. Should it be a universal payment or should it be targeted based on the additional costs, recognising that disability costs can vary greatly by disability? I will open this to the floor. I have put a lot out there but I look forward to hearing the witnesses' opinions. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Emer Costello","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Emer Costello  I thank Deputy Keogh for the questions. On the last question about the cost-of-disability payment, Ms Carthy mentioned earlier that a lot of disability organisations have come together and have said that initially the payment should be a universal rate of \u20ac55. We do not see the introduction of a cost-of-disability payment in this year\u2019s budget will be the be all and end all. We would see it as being a starting point rather than an end point with 2027.  We would hope then that once the principle of a cost of disability payment was introduced, we would then be able to work through with the Government and the Department on how that payment would be rolled out in accordance with need - not looking at means, but at need. That is a co-design process that will take some time, and we accept that.  We talked about the importance of investing in people with disabilities and allowing them to live equally to others. That is hugely important for all the organisations here and for anybody who is advocating on behalf of people with disabilities. There is a very urgent need for the payment and that a start needs to be made.  Regarding the question on income disregards and the two or three years, we discussed earlier that for people who are going to live in fear of losing their benefits in three years, it is of no use to them to know that, if they get a job, they can only keep the benefits they need. One of the big obstacles to this is the income disregard. If you look at the progress that has been made on the income disregard with carers, there is a very stark difference there. The last increase we had in the income disregard for disability was 2023. We need to use the template done for the carers to say to people that they can keep their benefits, travel pass and medical card. The committee heard from Ms Dunne that these are the issues and challenges people are facing. The issue with the income disregard really needs to be dealt with in this year's budget. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Adrian Carroll","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Adrian Carroll  I completely echo what Ms Carthy has said as regards setting up an additional cost of disability payment in this year's budget, but we would also see the cost of disability payment as being an ongoing process. It is about being informed by the lived experiences of disabled people actively engaged with DPOs, my colleagues and the wider disability community.  With regard to the eligibility criteria that was mentioned, one of the things we try to emphasise as a core principle of a cost of disability payment is that it does not reinforce or replicate barriers we might see that have been echoed throughout this hearing and which exist in the current system. We want the application process to be clearer and more straightforward.  We also see situations where, even in some of the feedback for the cost of disability, some of the criteria, language and framing used might inadvertently cause hardship or traumatise disabled people who are putting their own personal experiences forward when applying for supports. That reflects wider barriers within the application process itself.  As regards documentation and determining the amount, one of the things we wanted to try to ensure was how this would work in practice. With the cost of disability, it is about giving people the freedom to make these choices. When it comes to doing it, we would see it like a regular payment, but it would also be a situation where we would not want to see people having to reapply for individual, medical or personal expenses. We would advocate for a system that does not impose an additional administrative burden for disabled people and families. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maurice Quinlivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Did Ms Carthy want to speak on that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Joan Carthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Joan Carthy  It is okay; it has been covered. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maurice Quinlivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Did Mr. Lynott want to come in? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Conor Lynott","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Conor Lynott  The Deputy mentioned benefits-in-kind or non-income supports, let us put it that way. One of the things I need to note and that I cannot stress enough is how important assistive technology is for getting into the workplace. I also need to make the committee aware that there are improvements as regards the provision of assistive technology in the workplace, in my experience, it is still not the maximum of what is available in universities. There is a dependence on what kind of employer you are involved with. If you are involved in the public sector, you have a much better chance of getting the assistance. If you are in the private sector, it is pretty much hit and miss. You have to deal with the cards you are dealt, as it were. There needs to be a way of consistently providing assistive technology that does not depend on the individual budgets of the organisations. I do not know how you do that, but it is about balance in what is available in the public and private sectors. Those are my thoughts on that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maurice Quinlivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  That concludes round one, so I will briefly allow members to come back in if they want, but it will be only two minutes for questions and answers. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gillian Toole","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gillian-Toole.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Gillian-Toole.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Gillian Toole  We are moving to the need for \u20ac55 per week, and perhaps, the \u20ac400 once-off emergency investment. Some of the witnesses might be aware that we previously discussed personalised budgets, because everybody's needs are different. Is that something our committee should be recommending to the HSE when HSE and Department of education budgets are laid out later in the year, that there are personalised budgets ring-fenced? I am coming back to the centralised disability fund Mr. Lynott mentioned, where each person has individual needs, but if you have your personal investment fund, that can be for technology. Do the witnesses wish to comment any further on how that can be developed and how we can move further on that? I see this as being in addition to the payments. I also thank the witnesses for the copy of the pre-budget submission they circulated. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Joan Carthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Joan Carthy  On the personalised budgets, it is to get a good report out of the pilot to understand what worked there. Across the board, it is about looking at coming from a place of trust and trusting people with disabilities to be able to manage the problems that are there, but it would make it easier for people to be able to live their lives where they can make the choice of where the money is needed and where it could be spent. This gives that one-stop-shop so that people do not have to go to all sorts of different spaces, so personalised budgets are very important.  On the \u20ac55, and the fact that the Deputy - understandably - said that is what is needed, it is much more than \u20ac55 that is needed. That is important to keep in mind, but we feel \u20ac55 is very much a starting point to get it up. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Emer Costello","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Emer Costello  I do not have much to add to what Ms Carthy has said, only to see what comes out of the report on personalised budgets. There would be a lot to recommend them as a way forward. I also want to emphasise again that we would see the \u20ac55 a week as a starting point and it would continue to be co-designed. We would also see it as a universal payment and not necessarily just applying to those on a disability payment, that people with disabilities in employment would also be entitled to some kind of tax credit, in acknowledgement of the fact they too have additional costs, even though they are working. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Michael O'Flanagan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Michael O'Flanagan  I will just echo what was said, and not take up time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Margaret Murphy O'Mahony","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Margaret Murphy O'Mahony  I did not get to Ms Carthy, Ms Dunne or Ms Costello in my first round of questions. I ask each of them to tell me briefly what can be done to entice more people with a disability into the workforce. For people already in the workforce, importantly, what can be done to encourage them to seek promotion? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Joan Carthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Joan Carthy  The big piece for us is really the benefits side of things. It is about making sure that people do not end up worse off when taking up employment. Instead of giving a false sense of security, we need to make sure people can hold onto their benefits. We can do all sorts of programmes with employers, but really the big barrier is the benefits aspect. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms \u00c1ine Dunne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms \u00c1ine Dunne  They should talk to employers and explain to them the benefit of employing a person with a disability. The benefit should be spoken about rather than the barriers. It should be pointed out what a person can do for a company. It is about giving a sense of the benefits that people with disabilities bring to companies, rather than the barriers involved. It is about explaining what people can do. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Margaret Murphy O'Mahony","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Margaret Murphy O'Mahony  Ms Dunne is talking about showing the good side. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms \u00c1ine Dunne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms \u00c1ine Dunne  Yes. It is about showing the good side and not the bad side of things. Do not highlight the disability but show the person\u2019s ability and what they can do. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Margaret Murphy O'Mahony","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Margaret Murphy O'Mahony  I think there could be a public awareness campaign too. I am thinking of someone with a disability who is employed and to do it from that perspective. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms \u00c1ine Dunne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms \u00c1ine Dunne  I have a disability and I am employed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Margaret Murphy O'Mahony","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Margaret Murphy O'Mahony  Yes. It is about showing it from the side of the employers and the employees. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Emer Costello","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Emer Costello  I will again address the issue of retention of secondary benefits and looking at the earnings disregard. The wage subsidy scheme also needs further reform. A reduction to eight hours would be very progressive. That is important and easily done.  The rates of the wage subsidy scheme, WSS, should be linked to the national minimum wage. There are work path facilitators with the WSS as well. There is a grant of \u20ac30,000 for those facilitators, but it has not increased in 20 years. I am talking about those kinds of grants and in-work supports where there are job coaches.  We would also say that disability employment training, supports and supported employment to bring people into employment are greatly important. We have the lowest disability employment rate in the EU and we have the highest disability employment gap. Senator Clonan referred to this fact earlier. It behoves us to do something to try to help people to move into employment. That does not, though, fully resolve the issue around the cost of disability, and this must be acknowledged. People in work also incur the costs of disabilities. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Margaret Murphy O'Mahony","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Margaret Murphy O'Mahony  I thank the witnesses. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  The amount in respect of resolving the disability allowance situation was \u20ac112. There was then the sum of \u20ac55 per week and a universal payment. We have to get into universality. Obviously, the loss of benefits is a ridiculous obstacle for people.  Turning to the work and access programme for employers, I think the Minister himself would accept it is not fit for purpose. I will go back to Mr. Lynott in relation to assistive technology. This can revolutionise things, even if we are talking about an educational setting, and back up speech and language therapy supports. From the employer\u2019s perspective, what has Mr. Lynott seen that has been easy enough to access in the public sector that has not been there? Making the scheme better for the employer so it is better for the employee is the big thing. It is about ensuring that whatever is necessary can be provided. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maurice Quinlivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Is that directed to Mr. Lynott? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  It is. The work and access programme is about putting reasonable accommodations in place. Mr. Lynott spoke about the fact that he has seen very good reasonable accommodations in respect of assistive technology in the public sector. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Conor Lynott","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Conor Lynott  In relation to the work and access grant, I looked at it in relation to the funding and the criteria. One of the things about the work and access grant is that, as far as I understand, it is not available for people in the Civil Service. According to my understanding, it is primarily available for people in the private sector. That does not make sense to me. It should be available regardless of where people work. There should not be a criterion in that regard. The point is that I think the full fund is set at \u20ac12,000 or something like that. When we think about the title of the scheme, which is \"work and access\", a whole lot of different things are needed to access work, and \u20ac12,000 a year is certainly not going to be enough to cover all those different costs.  I mentioned independent living supports. If we look at most types of healthcare companies or independent living supports, most people are looking for wages of \u20ac12 to \u20ac16 per hour for independent living support staff. For 52 weeks a year, then, we are talking about an astronomical amount of money by the end of the year. This is why independent living supports seem a very disproportionate burden. It is because of the amount of money involved.  To go back to my original point, the criteria in respect of the work and access programme do not make sense. The funding is also not enough to cover all the needs required to access work. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maurice Quinlivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank Mr. Lynott. Does Deputy Healy wish to contribute briefly? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Seamus Healy  Access to personal assistance is very important for independent living and for access to employment. What is the picture like out there in this regard? Is there ready access to personal assistance? Are there long delays, are they available or what is the situation? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Joan Carthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Joan Carthy  There are major problems when it comes to personal assistance. It comes in at all sorts of different levels. Initially, it is in relation to workforce planning, and trying to get people to take up employment. There is an issue around pay parity. People are not getting paid the same if they work for a section 39 organisation as they would if they were working for the HSE. Our personal assistance services are being forced into an authorisation scheme.  On the ground, as well, if someone goes looking for a personal assistant, people in a lot of regions are being told straight out that only home care packages are provided and not personal assistants. This means that people will have someone to help them to get up in the morning and back to bed in the evening, but those are the only hours being granted. Nothing is provided during the day if people want to take part in employment, education, social life, family life or whatever it might be. No hours are being made available for those activities. While the Government is saying that it is putting money into this area, and that there are hours available, it is not happening for personal assistance services on the ground. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Seamus Healy  I thank Ms Carthy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maurice Quinlivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  That nearly concludes our discussion today. Mr. Carroll would like to make a quick point. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Adrian Carroll","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Adrian Carroll  Very quickly, one of the things we wanted to talk about in terms of the work and access scheme, speaking to a point already made, is that we would like to see a review of how it is working and what we can do to improve access to it. This would be building on all the points we discussed this morning.  The other point worth mentioning, speaking from the employer\u2019s perspective, is disclosure. It is a big issue for many people looking to access supports in the workplace. It is about having a conversation with an employer concerning the supports they might need at work. It is a conversation that can be very uncomfortable or taboo. Even in terms of training, the need around awareness-raising was mentioned. This concerns the work and access scheme and also supporting more disabled people to get into work. There needs to be an emphasis on supporting employers to create more psychologically safe environments to support disabled people and enable them to have those conversations.  It is particularly the case for the communities represented here, but also in terms of mental health. That falls within the disability family. In the context of disability and neurodivergence, those are the kinds of conversations where a person might have to go up to an employer and say that they might need supports for further access. They need to be confident that they will be listened to and that employers will be able to provide supports as they need them.  On the final point, the Disability Act review is a really good opportunity for us to have a look at reasonable accommodations in the workplace. There is a conversation to be had in that regard. What we would like to see is for us to be brought into line with the EU and the UNCRPD in the context of having the relevant standards around ensuring that a disproportionate portion burden in the context of those standards does not pose additional barriers for disabled people to access the supports they need. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maurice Quinlivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank the witnesses for coming. I particularly thank them for submitting their opening statements in advance in order to assist us with our deliberations. The committee will now go into private session to deal with a number of housekeeping matters. Is that agreed? Agreed. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The joint committee went into private session at 11.41 a.m and adjourned at 12.01 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. Wednesday, 24 June 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Disability and Financial Independence: Discussion"}]}}]},"contextDate":"2026-06-17"}]}