{"head":{"counts":{"debateCount":10000,"resultCount":10000}},"results":[{"debateRecord":{"house":{"showAs":"34th D\u00e1il","committeeCode":"","houseCode":"dail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/house\/dail\/34","chamberType":"house","houseNo":"34"},"chamber":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/def\/house\/dail","showAs":"D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann"},"lastUpdated":"2026-11-11T20:31:16+00:00","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-11\/debate\/main","formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-11\/debate\/mul@\/main.xml"},"pdf":null},"date":"2026-11-11","counts":{"contributorCount":79,"divisionCount":0,"debateSectionCount":17,"questionCount":0,"billCount":3},"debateType":"debate","debateSections":[{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-11\/debate\/dbsect_2","debateType":"topical","bill":null,"showAs":"\u00c1bhair Shaincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Matters","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aindrias Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aindrias Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Aindrias Moynihan) I wish to advise the House of the following matters in respect of which notice has been given under Standing Order 39 and the name of the Member in each case: Deputies R\u00e9ada Cronin and Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh - To discuss Irish artists being ripped off by AI. Deputy Michael Cahill - To discuss extremely poor mobile telephone reception and black spots throughout County Kerry. Deputy Donna McGettigan - To discuss the serious under-resourcing of a school in County Clare. Deputy Albert Dolan - To discuss endometriosis services in Galway. Deputy Shane Moynihan - To discuss the need to ensure full provision of National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS, in schools across Lucan, Clondalkin, Palmerstown, Rathcoole, Newcastle and Saggart. Deputy Louise O'Reilly - To discuss gaps in support for widows and bereaved partners. Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa - To discuss the way in which local specialist music retailers can become approved suppliers to schools. Deputy Maurice Quinlivan - To discuss the ongoing issue of wandering horses in urban areas. Deputy Robert O'Donoghue - To discuss the need for an integrated, co-ordinated mental health emergency response. Deputy Erin McGreehan - To discuss the need for legislation for tokenisation of the funds industry. Deputy Emer Currie - To discuss the introduction of a common application process for post-primary school places, and whether Dublin 15 will be included in the initial launch. Deputy Aidan Farrelly - To discuss the sports capital grant programme in respect of soccer clubs in County Kildare. The matters raised by Deputies Cronin and N\u00ed Raghallaigh, Cahill, Farrelly, McGreehan and Currie have been selected for discussion."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"\u00c1bhair Shaincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Matters"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-11\/debate\/dbsect_3","debateType":"topical","bill":null,"showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":false,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-11\/debate\/dbsect_4","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Sports Funding","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-11\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_4","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Charlie McConalogue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Charlie-McConalogue.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Charlie-McConalogue.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aindrias Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Aidan Farrelly I thank Deputies N\u00ed Raghallaigh and Cronin for obliging me this morning and changing the order. I thank the Minister of State for being here to hear about this issue. It is not the first time we have spoken about it but I want to take the opportunity to update him and the House on where things stand with the state-of-the-art all-weather pitch that was funded by the Exchequer from 2006 and completed in 2024 as well as where that fits into grassroots and underage football in Kildare. I will quickly brief the House on the timeline. As the Minister of State will be aware, the Department of sport awarded the Kildare and District Underage League, KDUL, a \u20ac350,000 grant in 2006 to develop an all-weather pitch. In 2019, the Department issued a warning to KDUL that if it did not use the grant, it would lose it, and in that same year, the KDUL CLG was dissolved. A year later, the KDUL Academy CLG was formed by three people who were not elected by the KDUL clubs. In the same year - 2020 - the Department gave permission to transfer the name of the grant recipient from KDUL to KDUL Academy CLG. In 2020, Mr. McNally told The Kildare Nationalist that the pitch at the Killashee House Hotel would be of benefit to both the KDUL teams and Klub Kildare. In 2024, that all-weather pitch was completed. If the Minister of State has been there, he will have seen that it is a very impressive facility and certainly an excellent use of taxpayers\u2019 funds as a capital project. The issue that remains is that the 31 clubs and over 6,000 children and young people playing underage football as part of KDUL do not have routine access to that pitch. There is a county ground in Kildare for GAA and the intention behind this pitch was to have the same for soccer, but as it stands, we do not have access to it. The pitch is now home to a League of Ireland Academy club called Klub Kildare. That is its home and it is advertised as such on its website. We do not believe that the ultimate purpose of this sports capital grant was to fund that League of Ireland team in isolation. The secretary of the underage league has written to the Minister of State this week, and on behalf of those 31 clubs, the league is trying to establish a series of facts. Ultimately, it is asking for his intervention here. There have been a number of meetings since the last time we raised this in the House and I am aware that the Minister of State looked into the issue at that time. KDUL Academy CLG and Klub Kildare are operating this premises and we have been told that they have offered KDUL, that is, the grassroots clubs, use of the pitch for a fee. This fee, on an hourly basis, would be unsustainable for local clubs but also for the league when it comes to the hosting of training sessions, club finals and a regular presence on the pitch. While the academy will have full routine access to it, there is a concern that if KDUL wants to apply for sports capital funding in future, a question will be asked about why Kildare needs another county pitch if it already has this ground. We need the Minister of State and the Department to consider the timeline, the change of ownership and the ability of the over 6,000 grassroots footballers in Kildare to be able to access this pitch routinely, not just the academy players, who are a very small cohort, although they are wonderful kids doing excellently."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Charlie McConalogue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Charlie-McConalogue.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Charlie-McConalogue.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister of State at the Department of Culture, Communications and Sport (Deputy Charlie McConalogue) I thank Deputy Farrelly for raising this matter. I recognise the considerable contribution made by volunteers to soccer across County Kildare and the importance of ensuring that publicly funded facilities deliver the sporting benefits for which funding was approved. I also acknowledge that we debated this issue in the House in April last year. I subsequently wrote to the Deputy on 29 May 2025 regarding the particular sports allocation he is raising here again. The community sport facilities fund, CSFF, supports the development of sporting facilities throughout the country. Public confidence in that investment very much depends on effective controls, both when grants are paid and subsequently. These controls include conditions attached to grant approval, checks on expenditure and supporting documentation, inspections and audit. Where non-compliance is established, sanctions can include withdrawal or recovery of funding and restrictions on future applications. I detailed these controls in the House previously and they bear repeating. When making applications under each round of the CSFF, all organisations must agree to the terms and conditions of the programme and include a statement that all information provided as part of an application is truthful. All grants under the CSFF are initially allocated on a provisional basis and grantees must provide the documentation set out in the letter of provisional allocation prior to receiving formal approval. In all cases, the letter of provisional allocation informs grantees that submission of false or misleading information to the Department at any stage is treated very seriously. Any organisation that does not comply with the terms and conditions of the sports capital programme may be subject to inspection, have its grant withdrawn, be required to repay all or part of a grant or be barred from making applications for a period of time. All serious breaches of the terms and conditions of the programme will be notified to An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. Grantees must guarantee that the facilities funded will remain in sporting use for a minimum period. This is five years for equipment or capital grants of \u20ac25,000 or less and 15 years for any larger capital grants, although we have changed that for the upcoming round to ten years. Once grantees have formal approval, they may commence work and draw down the grant. The drawdown of grants involves the submission of documentation, which is checked within the sports capital programmes division and must include invoices that detail the work carried out, proof of payment of these invoices by way of bank statements and a signed certificate of compliance with the terms and conditions of the programme. The Department has a detailed non-compliance policy, which is used to examine any suspected instances of non-compliance with the terms and conditions of the fund. On the rare occasion a serious instance of non-compliance occurs, the grantee is required to repay the Department any money paid that was not used for an approved purpose. As per the relevant departmental guidelines, a system to carry out annual spot checks of capital projects is in place. This is designed to help the Department to ensure compliance with relevant guidelines. Each year, officials from the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General examine a sample of CSFF payments as well. We have previously discussed the concerns that the Deputy raised about the grant associated with the Kildare and District Underage League and the relationship between the league, KDUL Academy CLG and Klub Kildare. In responding to that debate in April last year and in my letter of 29 May 2025, I outlined the Department\u2019s position on the information available at that time. In summary, the Department is satisfied that there is no evidence of non-compliance with the terms and conditions of the funding in respect of the grant in question or on the part of the grantee. I also confirmed that any questions regarding structures and-or governance around KDUL Academy CLG are best addressed by the Football Association of Ireland. My objective is to protect public investment and ensure that grant-funded facilities deliver their intended sporting benefit. I am happy to consider any further specific evidence that the Deputy wishes to provide and to ensure that he receives a further substantive response on the issue he raises here today."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Aidan Farrelly I thank the Minister of State for his detailed reply and for his comprehensive correspondence at the time. It enlightened many individuals and stakeholders on the debate at the time. However, I question what evidence his officials need to simply conduct an audit. How many KDUL matches have taken place on this pitch since we spoke last? Zero. How many matches have taken place as part of the KDUL calendar of games since its inception in 2024? Zero. KDUL teams are not playing on this pitch because they have to pay for the privilege, despite being funded for the pitch in 2006. It is alleged that the entity that was dissolved was dissolved without the clubs knowing. The new entity, with three unelected directors, was set up without the clubs knowing but acting on their behalf and is now in direct ownership and maintenance of this facility for the purpose of a League of Ireland academy. If the Minister of State, or the Minister of the day, gave \u20ac350,000 for a League of Ireland academy all-weather pitch, I would be championing that in here and saying, \"Well done\". That is the type of investment we need. The problem is this was for grassroots football in Kildare. This was for the thousands of children who played football at club level in Kildare, not for the elite footballers. The purpose of this grant was for grassroots football, and now there is no grassroots football presence on it. That is why we need the Minister of State's intervention. Bringing this to the FAI will not resolve anything. I am just asking for an audit of its intended use and its current use. That will suffice. That will tell us where things stand and what the perspective would look like for future applications."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Charlie McConalogue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Charlie-McConalogue.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Charlie-McConalogue.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Charlie McConalogue In relation to the discussions we had on the issues Deputy Farrelly raised on the floor last year and my subsequent response to him, the Department has looked at the matter and assessed the grant, the awarding of it and the process involved. The Department is satisfied that the terms and conditions in relation to the drawdown of the grant have been satisfied. There is no issue from the Department's point of view with regard to the use of the funds, the delivery of the facility and it meeting the terms and conditions of the scheme. I understand the point that Deputy Farrelly is raising in relation to access and who exactly is using the pitch, the challenge around that and the dissatisfaction from a number of grassroots clubs with the level of access they have to the pitch, but that is a matter for the FAI, as the overall governing body for football, to engage with all involved on to try to ensure that there is as practicable and as accommodating an approach as possible that maximizes the benefit of the facility for football and for access to those wanting to play football across the county and in the general area. It is obviously a desire of the Department to make sure that the investment we are putting into every facility gets as much of a return and dividend as possible in terms of sporting benefit and participation. As a Department, we cannot be involved in the micromanagement of each facility other than to make sure that the administration of grant funding is all done appropriately and is in order, and if it is not, to intervene and act. In terms of this grant, the Department is satisfied that everything is in order from the point of view of the terms and conditions of the scheme. I suggest that everyone at local level engage with the governing body, the Football Association of Ireland, to see if there can be further accommodation there. There is no issue with any future grant. The fact that there is an AstroTurf pitch in an area is not in any way going to impede another additional grant application. We acknowledge that there is a need for more AstroTurf pitches. There is a dearth of them. Something we want to achieve out of the next funding round is that there be more such surfaces across the country. There is no area that I am aware of that has a sufficiency."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aindrias Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Aindrias Moynihan) Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an Aire St\u00e1it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Charlie McConalogue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Charlie-McConalogue.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Charlie-McConalogue.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Charlie McConalogue The weather last winter certainly spoke to that as well. We want to help to address that issue, and likewise in this case here."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Sports Funding"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-11\/debate\/dbsect_5","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Artificial Intelligence","counts":{"speechCount":9,"speakerCount":4},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-11\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_5","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Johnny Mythen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Johnny-Mythen.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Johnny-Mythen.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Charlie McConalogue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Charlie-McConalogue.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Charlie-McConalogue.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aindrias Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh I m\u00ed I\u00fail, d'aontaigh an Teach seo r\u00fan de chuid Shinn F\u00e9in a d'athnaigh an chont\u00fairt agus an bhagairt at\u00e1 ag an intleacht shaorga, IS, d'eala\u00edont\u00f3ir\u00ed agus d\u2019aon duine at\u00e1 ag obair sna earn\u00e1lacha cruthaitheachta. Dar le Danny O\u2019Donoghue \u00f3n mbanna ceoil The Script, t\u00e1 an intleacht shaorga tar \u00e9is c\u00f3ipcheart a ghoid ar sc\u00e1la tionscla\u00edoch. Sin a d\u00fairt s\u00e9 ag seisi\u00fan eolais sa seomra closamhairc an mh\u00ed seo caite. Rinne ceithre chomhlacht camch\u00f3ipe\u00e1il ar 125 amhr\u00e1n de chuid The Script agus 20 milli\u00fan amhr\u00e1n eile chun samhail IS a thraen\u00e1il, gan aon chead n\u00f3 gan aon \u00edoca\u00edocht. Bh\u00ed air teacht isteach faoi dh\u00f3 toisc nach bhfuil aon rud \u00e1 dh\u00e9anamh ag an Rialtas. Masla a bh\u00ed ann, mar sin, nuair a d\u2019eagraigh an Rialtas comhdh\u00e1il ar an intleacht shaorga mar chuid d\u2019Uachtar\u00e1nacht na h\u00c9ireann ar an gComhairle Eorpach le gairid, agus gan aon ionada\u00edocht ansin \u00f3 na tionscail cruthaitheachta. Bh\u00ed deis ag \u00c9irinn r\u00f3l ceannasa\u00edochta a th\u00f3g\u00e1il maidir le s\u00e1bh\u00e1ilteacht IS ach t\u00e1 an deis sin ligthe le sruth agus eala\u00edont\u00f3ir\u00ed ligthe s\u00edos. T\u00e1 an intleacht shaorga cheana f\u00e9in ag dul in ioma\u00edocht le heala\u00edont\u00f3ir\u00ed agus tionchar di\u00faltach aige ar a gcumas airgead a thuilleadh. Mar sin, t\u00e1 pr\u00e1inn ag baint leis an tsaincheist seo. T\u00e1 m\u00e9 tar \u00e9is scata comhfhreagras a fh\u00e1il maidir leis seo le gairid, agus d\u00e9arfainn go bhfuil se faighte ag an Aire freisin. Chuir an l\u00e9acht\u00f3ir ag IADT, Karima Dillon El-Toukhy, in i\u00fal ag an seisi\u00fan eolais sa seomra closamhairc go raibh an-amhras ar a mic l\u00e9inn \u2013 gl\u00fain na n-eala\u00edont\u00f3ir\u00ed at\u00e1 ag teacht an\u00edos \u2013 faona gcumas beatha a shaothr\u00fa d\u00f3ibh f\u00e9in i margadh l\u00e1n d\u2019\u00e1bhar ginte ag IS. Ba mhaith liom freagra \u00f3n Aire St\u00e1it inniu maidir leis an dul chun cinn at\u00e1 d\u00e9anta. An f\u00e9idir leis geall\u00faint a thabhairt do phobal na n-eala\u00edont\u00f3ir\u00ed go dtabharfar isteach reachta\u00edocht a chinnt\u00edonn tr\u00e9dhearcacht, toili\u00fa, c\u00f3ras cead\u00fanais agus luach saothair f\u00e9ar\u00e1ilte gan a thuilleadh moille? T\u00e1 dualgas orainn todhcha\u00ed a chinnti\u00fa don chruthaitheacht. Caithfidh muid cosaint a thabhairt do dhaonnacht na heala\u00edona agus sl\u00e1ine \u00e1r n-eala\u00edont\u00f3ir\u00ed."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Johnny Mythen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Johnny-Mythen.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Johnny-Mythen.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Johnny Mythen I thank the Minister of State for taking this issue today. As he is very much aware, the topic of AI has become part of everyday discourse, whether in the mainstream media or being discussed in almost every talk show on the planet. In the last couple of weeks, from Australia to Denmark, the general populace is beginning to realise the immediate threat that AI is to artists around the world and is seeking positive action through legislation and regulation. In fact, Australia's official music charts and Australian Recording Industry Association, ARIA, awards have banned all AI-generated songs to protect human creators, while Denmark has introduced the right to your own likeness Bill, which gives individual performers and artists the legal ownership of their own faces, voices and physical traits. Here in Ireland, generative AI capabilities are limitless when it comes to using, copying and scraping original artists' work, such as musicians, writers, animators, composers, actors and other artists. An example of this is fresh in the news, where Danny O'Donoghue, lead singer with The Script, called on the Government to protect the music industry from unauthorised use by AI companies and platforms. He said that more than 120 songs by The Script appeared in AI training datasets without the knowledge or consent of the band and without any remuneration or compensation. This is the kernel of the issue. Ireland is the central hub for European AI technology. We are lucky to have a nation that produces exceptionally talented world-class artists, musicians and local artists who add to our unique connection to our culture and Irishness, but they need protection. They need to have representation on the board of the AI office. They need protection from AI-generated content that uses their talent, image and work without their consent. I believe that the Government needs to introduce a bill like Denmark's. Will the Minister of State consider exploring this option?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Charlie McConalogue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Charlie-McConalogue.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Charlie-McConalogue.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Charlie McConalogue I thank Deputies N\u00ed Raghallaigh and Mythen for raising this important issue today. As they know, the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment is leading on the implementation of the EU Artificial Intelligence Act and has policy responsibility for copyright law in Ireland. The protection of copyright is a key concern for the creative and cultural sector, as they rightly outlined here this morning. In its report of February 2025, the AI Advisory Council was of the view that it was imperative that the Government consider whether Ireland's copyright laws and licensing regimes were equipped to address AI disruption. Leadership on Ireland's national strategy on artificial intelligence rests with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the Minister of State with responsibility for trade promotion, artificial intelligence and digital transformation. At present, the European Commission is reviewing the 2019 copyright in the digital Single Market directive, including the text and data mining exception. A consultation was held with the relevant stakeholders, which was circulated by the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment to stakeholders in Ireland, and a national submission has been made by the Department as well. A final report will be published by the European Commission in mid-2027. The Department of Culture, Communications and Sport will continue to work closely with colleagues in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment as it leads on the development of Ireland's copyright legislative regime. In parallel to the review, the European Commission is considering future measures to strengthen the position of creators and creative industries in the online and Al environment. The aim is to ensure that creators can better control the use of their works and enforce their rights, while supporting innovation and the development of Al technologies. The European Commission is currently gathering feedback from stakeholders through a targeted consultation, which was open until 10 November, to gather their views on challenges and options to address them related to the use of copyright-protected content in generative Al, including on the issue of deepfakes or impersonations, which extends beyond copyright law. New measures are expected to be tabled by the European Commission in mid-2027. The EU has committed to the development of an Al strategy for the cultural and creative sectors, which will be delivered next year. It will play an important role in ensuring that culture and creative sectors have the tools and support to navigate the changes to the sector brought about by Al. A number of Irish arts representative organisations have contributed to the recent call for evidence, which will shape the development of this strategy. It is clear in these submissions that artists want to see their rights respected and greatly worry about the impact of Al on their sector. It is important that Irish organisations continue to participate in EU consultation processes to ensure that the views of Irish creatives are represented. As part of our Presidency, Ireland is facilitating discussions on copyright at working party level. This includes consideration of possible technical solutions to the challenge of ensuring an effective means for rights holders to exercise their right to opt out from the text and data mining, TDM, exception for fair remuneration for those in the cultural and creative sectors in licensing their content for Al uses and to facilitate Al providers\u2019 access to high-quality training data to support AI-driven innovation. In Ireland's role as the chair of the Education, Youth, Culture and Sport Council under the EU Presidency, we are also working closely with European partners to prioritise action on Al in the new European work plan for culture. I hope that clarifies the current position in relation to the work that is necessary, how it is being co-ordinated at European level and the importance, due to that we are operating in a Single Market in the European environment, of that action happening at European level and of it being strong enough to protect our creatives in terms of what they have produced previously and what they produce into the future."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Johnny Mythen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Johnny-Mythen.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Johnny-Mythen.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Johnny Mythen I thank the Minister of State for his reply. It is understandable that it is difficult to bring these big tech companies and platforms to heel, considering the number of billions of euro they give to the coffers each year. However, we must work with other countries and be willing to use the best practices, particularly when it comes to regulation and legislation, like Denmark and the music awards of Australia. Artists must be protected. It is simple. The Government must step up and do this. In the Minister of State's remit, he can act. He can include representation of the arts sector on the AI Advisory Council and include the sector in the membership of the AI Office. He can ensure that no State funding for art is spent on content produced by generative AI. Through the Presidency of the Council of the European Union, he can influence the ongoing review of the text and data mining exception to the copyright and digital Single Market directive's Articles 3 and 4. This text can be strengthened to protect individual artists and their right to their own image, voice and intellectual property. Has the Government engaged with the review or contributed or provided any suggestive changes to the directive? If so, will the Minister of State any content of the full text? If not-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aindrias Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Aindrias Moynihan) I call Deputy N\u00ed Raghallaigh."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh Deputy Mythen is taking it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aindrias Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Aindrias Moynihan) It is one minute for each Deputy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh Leanfaidh m\u00e9 ar aghaidh \u00f3n m\u00e9id a bh\u00ed le r\u00e1 ag an Teachta Mythen. If not, when will this be done? Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an Aire St\u00e1it as an gceist seo a th\u00f3g\u00e1il inniu. T\u00e1 muid an-bhu\u00edoch as seo. Is \u00e1bhar thar a bheith t\u00e1bhachtach \u00e9. I thank the Minister of State for his reply thus far. I hope he will defend the copyrights and preserve the livelihoods of our creative communities and our unique relationship with our artists."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Charlie McConalogue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Charlie-McConalogue.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Charlie-McConalogue.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Charlie McConalogue This is a matter of great concern to creatives across the country. It is a real challenge, one that we must collectively work with our partners across Europe to ensure it is addressed and that the creative work of our artists is protected. As recommended by the 2025 report of the national Al Advisory Council, entitled \"The Impact of Al on Ireland's Creative Sector\", the overarching objective must be to protect our creatives and ensure meaningful artistic freedom while fostering innovation and the potential of Al for the creative and cultural sector. The EU joint declaration, Europe for Culture, Culture for Europe, states: The ethical, sustainable and responsible use, development and governance of [Al] systems should foster human creativity through a fair human-centric and rights-based approach. It should: respect cultural rights, accessibility, inclusivity and cultural diversity; promote and contribute to the discoverability and visibility of European, national and local content; foster competitiveness; counter digital divides; and foster digital inclusion. These important principles will guide our work in the months ahead. Regarding the role of State bodies, the Arts Council is engaging with the arts sector and monitoring national and European policy and regulation to understand the diverse implications of these technologies across the arts to inform future advice for the sector. As to screen industries, Screen Ireland has not prescribed or outlined what tools filmmakers can or cannot use for their storytelling, whether that is shooting on film, using CG animation or, potentially, the use of generative Al at some point in the filmmaking process. For ethical and sustainability reasons, transparency is of the utmost importance, along with evidence of compliance with copyright law. As a next step, Screen Ireland is looking to develop an acceptable use policy on the use of generative Al in projects funded by the agency. In my initial response, I outlined the various consultations going on at European level and the expectation in relation to progress next year to help address this issue. It is something collectively across the House that we will all be very much committed to and want to see being as robust as possible in terms of protecting the creative rights of our artists."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Artificial Intelligence"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-11\/debate\/dbsect_6","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Telecommunications Infrastructure","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-11\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_6","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Cahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Charlie McConalogue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Charlie-McConalogue.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Charlie-McConalogue.D.2011-03-09","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Cahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Cahill I raise the matter of mobile phone black spots in County Kerry. This is not the first time that I have raised this issue in the House. We all accept that mobile phones now play a major part in the social and working lives of the vast majority of our citizens. We become more reliant on them as the weeks and months roll by. Are works planned to improve mobile phone coverage in County Kerry and, indeed, all over Ireland in those black spots that we all come across them in our daily lives? These black spots, for whatever reason, be it mountain, shade or otherwise, continue to interrupt the social and business lives of our citizens if they are only passing through them, but more particularly and deeply if they happen to live within these black spot boundaries. This issue must be addressed, especially to allow us to deal with emergencies. I am aware of several incidents in such areas over a number of years now in my county. It is not good enough and not acceptable. We need to have this addressed as soon as possible. There are several locations where mobile coverage is either non-existent or subject to regular interruption. These include the Tralee to Dingle road, Camp, Annascaul, Glencar, Gneeveguilla, the Black Valley, Ballintleave, Curraheen near the Kerry Bog Village in my own parish of Glenbeigh, Mountain Stage, Dromaclaurig and Ballinskelligs, to name just a few. These areas suffer regularly due to an unfulfilled mobile phone service. There are also areas around Kenmare and Kilcummin. I should mention the three peninsulas of Dingle, Iveragh and Beara. Could the Minister clarify whether the Department has plans to deal with this issue? Can we get timelines for the delivery of 100% mobile telephone coverage for all of Kerry and, indeed, Ireland? As I mentioned, I raised this issue with the T\u00e1naiste previously and, indeed, with others. I have raised Dromid, Waterville, and Glencuttane, which is just outside the town of Killorglin. There is very poor reception - in fact, zero reception - in these areas. I have raised Ballintleave and Glenbeigh, between the Red Fox Inn, the Kerry Bog Village and Curraheen National School in my parish, Inch and Annascaul, especially along the coast road where the road rises to Annascaul village, between Camp and Annascaul and between Loo Bridge and Kilgarvan. The list goes on and on. There is a particularly bad area between Mountain Stage on the Ring of Kerry road and Kells. I mention the Foilmore area. I have been contacted by emergency services in regard to that particular area in the past. North, south, east, west and, indeed, mid Kerry all have blackspots. In a previous response, the T\u00e1naiste stated that the Minister for communications had a blackspots task force, which was going to look at these areas. I have heard absolutely nothing back and I would like to see action on this."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Charlie McConalogue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Charlie-McConalogue.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Charlie-McConalogue.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Charlie McConalogue I thank Deputy Cahill for raising the important issue of mobile reception and blackspots in County Kerry. It is not specific to County Kerry and there are similar challenges in my county of Donegal and some other areas, which have large geographies. It is well recognised by all of us how important telecommunications services are for citizens in so many aspects of our daily lives. Access to high-quality telecommunication services is also of crucial importance in the context of supporting current and future development of enterprise in urban and rural areas. Ireland's level of connectivity to support digital activity has improved significantly in recent years. The digital economy and society index is a composite index summarising relevant indicators on Europe's digital performance, and Ireland ranked fifth in 2026 among EU countries compared to 11th in 2019. Ireland now ranks second in the EU for basic digital skills and fifth for generative AI adoption. The continued investment by commercial operators and the State through the national broadband plan will ensure that Ireland is set to become an EU leader in connectivity in the second half of this decade. The availability of mobile phone coverage is primarily a matter for mobile phone network operators operating on a commercial basis in a liberalised market. They are regulated by the Commission for Communications Regulation, ComReg, and are assessed against the terms of their licences. Mobile network operators continuously modify their network coverage across rural and urban areas to cater for ever-increasing traffic volumes. However, the quality of network coverage is not uniform across the country, and many factors will affect how well mobile radio signals propagate from base stations to users' phones. For example, signals weaken significantly the further one is from a mobile phone mast, the terrain and physical environment can block or weaken signals, thick concrete, steel and energy efficient low e-glass can also stop signals entering a building and network congestion can be caused when too many people in one area are using phones simultaneously. Of course, storms and heavy moisture in the air can affect and attenuate the transmission of mobile phone signals. Handsets and user handling can also be a factor. Mobile coverage obligations are set out in licences granted by the independent regulator, ComReg, to mobile operators. ComReg advises that the current minimum coverage obligations in those licences are being exceeded considerably by all operators. Capital investment by telecommunications operators over the past eight years was in the order of \u20ac5 billion for fixed and mobile services. This has significantly enhanced the availability of services, voice and data, throughout Ireland, including in rural areas. Telecommunication operators have committed to continuing investment programmes in the coming years. In 2022, ComReg ran a multi-band spectrum award to assign rights of use in four spectrum bands. The award comprised 470 MHz of spectrum and represents a 46% increase in the harmonised spectrum assigned for the provision of wireless broadband services. This significantly enabled the market to provide improved services to meet increasing consumer demand for mobile data and for new services. To assist consumers in choosing the network provider that best meets their needs for where they live, work and travel, ComReg has developed a national outdoor coverage map. This map, which is available on the ComReg website, provides consumers with very clear information of where operators have good 2G, 3G, 4G and 5G coverage. While this will not be of assistance where there is an absolute blackspot, it is something that could be of use to people in different areas. They could look at the website and assess in terms of the map which operators are providing what level of service in different areas."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Cahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Cahill I thank the Minister of State. I was in Listowel last Friday, which was a special day, in that it was an acknowledgement of the rollout of broadband to all of Kerry. I want to acknowledge the work that has been done. It is great that we can say that. I know all about ComReg; I have written to it for many years, as have my colleagues in Kerry, including when I was a member of Kerry County Council. We feel let down in regard to its work. I mentioned a long list of specific locations. It is all very well when there is no accident or emergency or a tragedy. I have come across cases where people have been trapped in cars and cannot contact anyone because there is no mobile phone reception. I know of plenty of places where there are people living in isolated areas, especially elderly people, and if they fall or they need help, they cannot contact anyone. In this day and age, that is simply not good enough. I ask the Minister of State to raise this with his colleague, the Minister for communications, and address this major issue. As I mentioned at the outset, it is not just an issue in my county; it is happening all over the country. We are going into 2027 and it is simply not good enough. I raise this in the interests of health, well-being and, especially, safety. I thank the Minister of State for his response but this has to be addressed. I will keep raising this matter here until such time as the people of my county, Kerry, get the service they deserve."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Charlie McConalogue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Charlie-McConalogue.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Charlie-McConalogue.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Charlie McConalogue I thank the Deputy for raising this and for his advocacy on behalf of those areas in County Kerry which have poor or no mobile phone coverage. I will highlight the points the Deputy has made to officials in the communications section in my Department regarding his experience relating to mobile coverage and ensure it is communicated to ComReg for its information. We all know the massive investment the Government has made in the national broadband plan, which commits to bringing broadband services of a high quality to every residential premises, home and business in the country. It can often be the case that when one walks in the door of a building, one is connected again because of the investment the Government has made through online and broadband call services. There can be that challenge, in that until one goes into a premises and connects to its Wi-Fi, one may not have mobile coverage. That is certainly a challenge. Government investment has made a massive difference throughout the country in ensuring every premises is connected and has voice and data communication to the rest of the world and person to person. The issue Deputy Cahill has raised, regarding the capacity for mobile services, is a fair one. While there is no doubt that from an overall point of view all the information indicates that as a country we are performing well and are high up in the league, that is little consolation if one is in an area where one does not have good coverage. I thank the Deputy for raising this issue again today. I will highlight his contribution today and the importance of it."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Telecommunications Infrastructure"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-11\/debate\/dbsect_7","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"School Admissions","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-11\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_7","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Currie","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Currie","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Currie I thank the Minister, Deputy Naughton, for being here today. I want to ask her for an update on the roll-out of the common applications processes. There is a particular need in areas where specific schools are in high demand. There are very long waiting lists and there is a lot of duplication. It takes a long time for the waiting lists to drop. It is exacerbated when there is pressure on school places. That is happening in particular in Castleknock this year because of a reduction in school places in Castleknock Community College, CCC. However, every autumn a new group of parents faces the same scramble for places in Castleknock and Carpenterstown. We know the problem in relation to the process and it is time to change it. Edmund Rice College in Castleknock apparently has 760 applications this year for 180 places. In Castleknock Community College, there are 183 children in the school's catchment area who have not been offered a place, and that does not include all the other children who have applied to Castleknock Community College. I have already been in contact with the Minister's office about CCC, where the intake is 210 this year instead of 240 because 210 sixth-year students are leaving and the extension to the school that was approved back in May 2024 has not been constructed. That is the reason the numbers have dropped. In December 2025, I asked a parliamentary question about the extension because I anticipated the problems families are now facing. In reply, the Minister's Department said: The Department currently awaits the submission of a Stage 1 early design report for review from the appointed design team. It is now within the remit of DDLETB [the school's patron] to progress this project accordingly. Following that response, I contacted the patron to seek progress and the stage 1 design was submitted to the Department in February 2026. I know that the extension will not be ready for September 2027 because of the various stages it needs to move through, but I feel incredibly sorry for the families who are going to lose out on a place in their local school. It is made worse by the uncertainty and stress they are going to face until around Christmas as they wait to find out if they are going to be offered a place because of the long waiting lists. It is another admissions season with the same uncertainty for families. There is a much simpler way to do this: a common applications process with one application and one deadline across multiple schools, where people can list their preference. We have a situation in Castleknock and Carpenterstown where there are two schools and parents apply to both. There are some parents and families who would prefer to be in one school over the other, but they take their places and can end up travelling further. A prioritisation system would benefit everyone. This is the straightforward principle behind the reform I have been advocating for some years. Families should be able to express their preferences through a co-ordinated process, with schools working with each other, completing applications faster, identifying duplication sooner, and addressing the overall capacity issues, if they exist, quicker. I was delighted when that reform was included in the programme for Government. Despite leading a campaign for it based on the experience of Dublin 15, our community was not included in the initial pilot mainly because the autism class applications trial was taking place at the same time. We are going into the third year and we really need to prioritise the families in Castleknock and Carpenterstown."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister for Education and Youth (Deputy Hildegarde Naughton) Ba mhaith liom bu\u00edochas a ghabh\u00e1il leis an Teachta Currie as aird a tharraingt ar an \u00e1bhar seo. I would like to acknowledge and thank Deputy Currie for championing the important issue of a national common applications system for a number of years. The Government is fully committed to supporting children and young people to access appropriate educational provision and to ensuring that the school admissions process is transparent and accessible to all families. The programme for Government includes a commitment to the development of a nationwide common application system for school admissions, recognising the potential for a streamlined application process to reduce the administrative burden on families and schools. As an initial step towards delivering this commitment, the Department launched the apply to school pilot scheme in October 2025. The initial pilot provided a single online application process for admission to first year mainstream and special classes in five towns. Building on the success of this experience and what we have learned from this initial phase, the pilot was expanded for the 2026-27 admissions cycle. The expanded scheme now covers 22 post-primary schools across ten school planning areas, and that represents an important step in the development of a more streamlined and accessible admissions process. An important aspect of the expanded pilot is the provision of an offers management system for those participating schools. Through the apply to school system, parents and guardians can submit a single online application through a central portal and apply to multiple participating schools, which is what Deputy Currie has been referring to in her contribution. The system also introduces synchronised admissions timelines, allowing schools to manage applications and issue offers in a more co-ordinated way. This approach aims to provide greater clarity and consistency for families navigating the admissions process, while also supporting more efficient administration by participating schools. It is important to emphasise that participation in the common application process does not remove or alter the responsibilities of individual schools. Each participating school retains control of its own admissions policy and continues to fulfil its statutory obligations under the Education (Admission to Schools) Act 2018. The system does not alter the patronage, ethos or governance arrangements of schools. Schools which are not participating in the pilot will continue to operate their existing admissions processes, and pupils already enrolled in schools will not be affected by its introduction. The first offers of school places across the 22 schools participating in the expanded pilot will issue tomorrow, Thursday, 12 November. The Department will review the operation of the expanded pilot thereafter but it is noteworthy that applicants have indicated a user acceptance score in excess of 90% in respect of the application process. The scope for further expansion of the system will be informed by the review of the current pilot, including feedback from families and participating schools. However, the development of a nationwide system, including for schools in Dublin 15, will require significant technical development, extensive stakeholder engagement and, where necessary, legislative change. Accordingly, the Department will continue to progress this work on a phased and iterative basis but I am committed to delivering on the programme for Government commitment. I thank Deputy Currie for her work in this regard. The Department recognises the particular challenges facing the Dublin 15 area, including significant population growth, migration and increased demand for special education provision. A task force, as the Deputy knows, was established to support forward planning of special education provision in the area, with parents and their representative organisations playing an important role in this work. Separately, the Dublin 15 autism class application trial, which Deputy Currie referred to, has been established as a school-led initiative in partnership with the NCSE. It aims to provide a more transparent and equitable admissions process for autism classes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Currie","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Currie I commend the Department on taking the decision to proceed with this policy. It is the right thing to do. While I understand that investment will be needed to develop this on a nationwide basis, I think in Dublin 15 we have shown the acute need for this kind of approach and this process. I am asking today that Dublin 15 be included in the next round. I do not know if the intention is to keep evolving or to take a decision now to roll it out nationally. I suggest that Castleknock-Carpenterstown, and, ideally, Dublin 15 in its entirety, should be made part of the trial because of the necessity to react to the pressures that are felt every year by parents. I am acutely aware that this process is not a substitute for sufficient investment in school places. We all recognise that but it makes the need for this process even more acute. It would curtail the agony for families as they wait to hear whether a child has obtained a place. It would curtail the fear they feel when they receive a letter from the school. These children are on a waiting list of hundreds. It does not matter how much I might try to reassure parents that the waiting lists will drop because of duplications; the numbers are so high that such reassurance is just not enough. When we are aware of a problem, we have a responsibility to deal with it. I ask the Minister for any reassurance she can give parents about the overall number of school places in Castleknock and Carpenterstown and whether there are any options if there are not enough places to go around in the catchment."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Hildegarde Naughton In relation to the Dublin 15 autism class application trial, in which I know the Deputy was very much involved, the initial trial involved 13 schools in the 2024-25 school year, following which the initiative expanded to include 17 schools for the 2026-27 admissions cycle, with an online application platform also introduced. While the Dublin 15 initiative is separate from the post-primary apply to school pilot, both schemes demonstrate the commitment on the part of the Department and me to improving admissions processes and supporting families in accessing appropriate educational provision. We remain committed to delivering a transparent, equitable and accessible admissions system for children and young people through the development of a nationwide common application system. The introduction of the apply to school pilot in October 2025 and the subsequent expansion of the admission cycle to 22 post-primary schools across ten local school planning areas represent meaningful progress towards that objective. We are committed to building on that progress, which will involve continued engagement with schools, families and other relevant stakeholders to ensure the system is responsive. The Department recognises the specific challenges in the Dublin 15 area. We are working on the NDP with a view to ensuring there are sufficient spaces within the school planning area. That is always to the forefront of the Department\u2019s planning. A space may not be available in parents' first choice of school but we want to ensure there are adequate spaces there. I absolutely accept the importance of ensuring that children, particularly with additional needs, can have appropriate educational provision. The NCSE is working with the local school principals to support the ongoing autism special class trial. While the two initiatives are different, they share the objective of improving transparency around the admissions process. Tugann s\u00e9 tamall gan amhras c\u00f3ras d\u00e1 leith\u00e9id seo a chruth\u00fa agus a chur i bhfeidhm. T\u00e1 a fhios agam, m\u00e1 oibr\u00edonn muid as l\u00e1mha a ch\u00e9ile, go n-\u00e9ireoidh linn an obair th\u00e1bhachtach seo a chur i gcr\u00edch. It takes time but if we work together, we will achieve a common application process for the Deputy's area and right across the country."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"School Admissions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-11\/debate\/dbsect_8","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Financial Services","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-11\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Erin McGreehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Kieran O'Donnell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Kieran-O'Donnell.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Kieran-O'Donnell.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aindrias Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Erin McGreehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Erin McGreehan I welcome the opportunity to raise the need for timely legislation to support the tokenisation of Ireland's investment funds industry, particularly as we approach the 40th anniversary of the International Financial Services Centre, IFSC. The establishment of the IFSC four decades ago was a landmark decision. It helped to position Ireland as a leading international centre for financial services, thereby attracting global investment, supporting skilled employment and making a significant contribution to our economy. As we mark that anniversary, we should be looking forward as well as reflecting on what we have achieved. Our ambition should be to build on that success and to ensure Ireland remains at the forefront of the next generation of financial services. Tokenisation is an important part of that opportunity. Put simply, it involves using distributed ledger technology to issue, hold and transfer investment fund interests digitally. It has the potential to transform how investment funds are issued, administered, traded and settled. International asset managers are already developing tokenised products and tokenised money market funds have been launched already in Ireland. This demonstrates that the opportunity is not just theoretical. The market is developing, the technology is advancing and Ireland has the expertise and the established funding industry to participate. However, we must ensure that our legislative framework keeps pace with those developments. The issue is not that Ireland lacks a strong regulatory framework. Rather, some existing legislative provisions are designed around out-of-date, paper-based processes, physical registers and records maintained at specific locations. These provisions may not adequately accommodate the opportunities presented by digital ownership and distributed ledger technology. What is needed is a targeted, technology-neutral modernisation of our existing legislation that will preserve the strength and integrity of Ireland's fund framework while allowing it to accommodate the new technologies. The Government has already recognised the importance of this opportunity through the Ireland for Finance strategy, Vision 2030, which identifies tokenisation of investment funds and financial assets as a high-priority area for our financial services sector. There is now a real opportunity to turn that policy recognition into practical action. The Central Bank's work on tokenisation has already highlighted significant industry interest, emphasising the importance of the legal and regulatory clarity. At EU level, work is under way to facilitate the wider use of distributed ledger technology in capital markets. We need to ensure our domestic legislative framework develops alongside these changes. In practical terms, the Companies Act 2014, the Irish Collective Asset-Management Vehicles Act 2015 and the Investment Limited Partnership Act 1994 offer a potential starting point for identifying necessary amendments. That work should be targeted and proportionate. It should not require the creation of an entirely new regulatory regime, nor should it be delayed depending on the conclusion of a wider policy discussion. I am asking for the Minister to prioritise this work, ensure that the preparation of a general scheme proceeds without delay and set out a clear timeline for its publication and the subsequent introduction of legislation. The Government's objective should be to progress these targeted legislative amendments as soon as possible, preferably in early 2027."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Kieran O'Donnell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Kieran-O'Donnell.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Kieran-O'Donnell.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage (Deputy Kieran O'Donnell) I thank the Deputy for raising this important issue, which I am taking on behalf of the T\u00e1naiste and Minister for Finance, Deputy Harris. As we approach the 40th anniversary of the establishment of the International Financial Services Centre next year, it is timely to reflect on the remarkable success of Ireland's international financial services sector. Over four decades, Ireland has developed into a globally recognised centre for investment funds and financial services by embracing innovation while maintaining a strong regulatory framework. As we look to the future, the discussion around tokenisation forms part of that continuing evolution and of ensuring Ireland remains at the forefront of innovation in global financial services. Ireland is both a leading global funds centre and home to significant financial services and technology sectors. There are clear opportunities for us to combine those strengths and keep pace with technological developments. We are closely monitoring developments across Europe and internationally, and we will continue to engage with industry and the Central Bank to ensure Ireland remains a competitive location for investment funds, while maintaining our high regulatory standards. Tokenisation is the process of representing an asset or pool of assets as digital tokens on a distributed ledger. It has the potential to significantly change how capital markets operate. It could support real-time trading, improve transparency and liquidity, speed up clearing and settlement and, ultimately, enable near-instant settlement of transactions. The Funds Sector 2030 report recommended that industry continue to engage with the Central Bank and the Department of Finance to develop a pathway for adoption of tokenisation. The new Ireland for Finance strategy, Vision 2030 - Renewed and Refocussed for a Digital Age, launched in August 2026, identified the tokenisation of investment funds and financial assets as a priority area for Ireland's financial services sector. It forms an important part of our wider digital finance agenda. The Government has committed to supporting the development of tokenisation of investment funds. As part of that work, we are examining relevant domestic legislation, including the Irish Collective Asset-Management Vehicles Act and the Companies Act, with a view to the modernisation of the legislation, where needed. The Deputy has referenced other areas as well, which I have no doubt the Minister and the Department will hear about in the debate today. Across Europe, the regulatory framework for digital assets continues to evolve. Whether investment funds can be distributed in digital form depends on both EU and national rules. Some countries, including Germany and Luxembourg, have already commenced pilot initiatives in this area. At EU level, the European Commission\u2019s market integration and supervision package, MISP, agreed by Council under the Irish Presidency, represents an important step in supporting the wider use of distributed ledger technology, DLT. The package proposes amendments to 18 pieces of EU financial services legislation covering trading, clearing, settlement, and asset management. Its aim is to remove legal and operational barriers to new technologies. These changes are designed to move DLT beyond limited pilot projects and allow tokenised securities to be issued, traded, and settled at scale across the Single Market. Other amendments will make existing legislation more technology-neutral, allowing for the use of DLT and other emerging technologies. In March this year, the Central Bank published a discussion paper on tokenisation to stimulate debate on how DLT and tokenisation could shape the future of financial services in Ireland. The feedback statement, published last week, highlighted the strong industry interest in these technologies and their potential to improve efficiency and reduce costs. It also noted that wider adoption will require regulatory clarity, interoperable systems, reliable settlement arrangements, and strong risk management. The findings support a co-ordinated approach that enables innovations while protecting financial stability and market integrity."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aindrias Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Aindrias Moynihan) The Minister of State will have another opportunity in a moment."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Erin McGreehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Erin McGreehan I thank the Minister of State for his response outlining the work being undertaken to develop an appropriate legislative approach to tokenisation. I also recognise the recognition of this really important opportunity for Ireland, particularly acknowledging that our domestic legislation may need to be modernised to support the development of the tokenised investment funds. The key issue is the pace of progress. I welcome the work that the Irish Presidency has done on this issue. I have to acknowledge that there is clear industry interest and that the Government, the Central Bank and the industry will work together but we need to ensure that Ireland is not left waiting while other jurisdictions advance their framework. As the Minister of State noted, other countries are doing pilots. I appreciate that the Department is examining the appropriate legislative approaches. I would appreciate it if he could go back to the T\u00e1naiste to ask about timelines, whether it has progressed to a general scheme, if Government approval for that process has been secured, an indication of when the formal draft is expected to commence, and when the industry might reasonably expect to see the general scheme published. We do not need to create an entirely new regulatory framework. We need to modernise what we already have. The Department has acknowledged that it is examining those Acts. We need to provide certainty and we need to give the industry and international investors confidence that Ireland is ready for the next phase of financial innovation. I welcome the Minister of State's commitment but I would like him to convey to the T\u00e1naiste that we need momentum in this area and that he needs to provide a clear outline for delivery."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Kieran O'Donnell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Kieran-O'Donnell.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Kieran-O'Donnell.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Kieran O'Donnell I thank the Deputy for raising this important issue. I am taking this matter on behalf on the T\u00e1naiste and Minister for Finance. Officials in the Department of Finance are engaging closely with the Central Bank to help inform the next steps in Ireland's approach to tokenisation. While we recognise the risks of failing to keep pace with innovation, we must also carefully consider important issues such as data protection, anti-money laundering requirements, taxation, insolvency and the protection of property rights. We will continue to monitor international developments to ensure Ireland remains competitive while maintaining strong and effective regulation. Maintaining the future credits of Ireland's funds industries is a priority for the Government. The programme for Government states \u201cIreland has a world leading financial services sector and it is essential the sector is supported to innovate and enhance its competitiveness\u201d. The Government is committed to strengthening competitiveness by: supporting key sectors where Ireland has a strong competitive advantage, including in financial services; simplifying and modernising our regulatory framework; enhancing Ireland\u2019s funds and asset management offering, including in areas such as sustainable and green finance; and advancing the EU\u2019s savings and investments union to create greater investment opportunities across Europe. Ireland's position as one of Europe's leading centres brings both opportunity and responsibility. By supporting innovation while maintaining strong regulation, we can ensure that Ireland remains an attractive location for investment funds and continues to play a leading role in European capital markets. I will bring back the particular points the Deputy has raised to the Minister for Finance and his officials."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Erin McGreehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Erin McGreehan Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an Aire St\u00e1it."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Financial Services"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-11\/debate\/dbsect_9","debateType":"motion","bill":null,"showAs":"Reversing Planned Increases to Public Transport Fares: Motion [Private Members]","counts":{"speechCount":53,"speakerCount":31},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_9","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Liam Quaide","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jen Cummins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin Hayes","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Canney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louis O'Hara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Donnelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Donnelly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-Donnelly.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Natasha Newsome Drennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ciar\u00e1n Ahern","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-O'Donoghue.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Robert-O'Donoghue.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Charles Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Charles-Ward.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Charles-Ward.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Nicholas Gogarty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Daniel Ennis","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Daniel-Ennis.D.2026-05-25","memberCode":"Daniel-Ennis.D.2026-05-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Aidan Farrelly I move: That D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann: notes that: \u2014 affordable, accessible and reliable public transport is essential to tackling the cost-of-living crisis, reducing carbon emissions, easing traffic congestion, improving quality of life and ensuring that people can readily access employment, education, healthcare and other essential services; \u2014 the National Transport Authority (NTA) has announced increases to adult public transport fares averaging approximately 15 per cent from January 2027, with some fares increasing by up to 35 per cent; \u2014 these increases will impose additional costs on commuters, workers, students, and families at a time when many households are struggling to make ends meet amid the ever-increasing cost-of-living crisis; and \u2014 fares are due to rise at a time of severe overcrowding and reliability problems on some public transport routes, therefore, passengers will be paying more for inadequate and unreliable services; further notes that: \u2014 according to figures reported by IrishCycle.com, public transport usage increased by approximately 21 per cent between 2019 and 2025, compared with population growth of approximately 11 per cent over the same period, demonstrating the growing demand for public transport services; \u2014 there were 363.5 million individual journeys on the Transport for Ireland public transport network in 2025, up 5.8 per cent on 2024 levels, while there were 6.97 million Local Link journeys, an increase of 19 per cent on 2024 levels; \u2014 despite record public transport patronage, Census 2022 data showed that 63 per cent of workers still travelled to work by car, demonstrating the substantial potential to increase public transport use if services are affordable, reliable and available where people need them; \u2014 the NTA acknowledges that a 10 per cent increase in fares can be expected to lead to a 3 per cent fall in passenger numbers; \u2014 making public transport more expensive, risks undermining efforts to encourage a modal shift from private cars, reduce congestion and meet Ireland's climate commitments; and \u2014 the \u20ac70 million cost of reversing these fare increases amounts to just 1.3 per cent of the Department of Transport's overall budget for 2027; and calls on the Government to reverse the NTA's planned public transport fare increases from January 2027. As the Social Democrat spokesperson on transport, I am honoured to move this very important Private Members' motion, which asks the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, and the Government to reverse the political decision to increase the price of using public transport in Ireland by an average of 15%. I would like to welcome to the Gallery representatives from the Cork, Dublin, Galway and Limerick commuter coalitions who have informed Members quite comprehensively about the impacts of increasing the price of using public transport. None of it is good, but the Minister of State knows this. It is a price that he and the Government seem all too willing to pay. I thank my colleague in Kildare Councillor Chris Pender whose work, through a series of freedom of information, FOI, requests, has shown that the Minister of State and his colleague in the Department have been briefed for some time now that under the Minister of State's leadership the number of people using public transport will reduce to coincide with the planned fare increases. He and his colleague are both on the record of the D\u00e1il saying the opposite. In his opening remarks, the Minister of State might clarify how he intends to correct the record on that. Simply put, the decision to increase public transport fares makes no sense. It makes no political sense, it makes no policy sense, and from a cost-of-living perspective and from a climate action perspective, the impact of congestion on our mental and physical health perspective fails all the checks. Why on earth would the Government pursue it? The Minister of State will undoubtedly tell us about record levels of investment in public transport, record levels of passengers, and that in comparison to our EU neighbours we are not doing too badly. We should all be very clear in this House that the Government is attempting to undo and undermine every positive step achieved regarding public transport policy and the modal shift in recent years. Affordable, accessible and reliable public transport is essential to tackling the cost-of-living crisis, reducing carbon emissions, easing traffic congestion, improving quality of life and ensuring that people can readily access employment, education, healthcare and other essential services. We are EU leaders only when it comes to the cost of living, with the highest electricity costs, the highest grocery costs, exorbitant rents and sky-high childcare fees. This tone deaf decision will impose additional costs on commuters, workers, students and families when people are already struggling to put food on the table or heat their homes. Fares are due to rise at a time of severe overcrowding and reliability problems on some public transport routes. Passengers, therefore, will be paying more for inadequate and unreliable services. The Minister of State will probably tell us that these fare hikes will ensure the delivery of 140 new routes. Where are they? Where are the plans? The NTA has told the Oireachtas transport committee that this is about maintaining services and it is not about expansion. Where are the plans? This is asking people to pay for phantom plans and all too often phantom buses. It is beyond regressive and deeply challenging that the Government is falling back on not having had increased public transport fares as a rationale for increasing them now, next year and the year after. The has been Government planning this for quite a number of years now. There were 365 million individual journeys on the Transport for Ireland public transport network in 2025, up 6%. There were nearly 7 million Local Link journeys in the same year, up close to 20%. Those statistics, those people, under the Minister of State's stewardship, will now reduce in number. In some cases, we will see reductions of up to 10% in public transport users, because the Government would rather place the burden of a shortfall in funding for the NTA on those who use the services. The Minister of State should look around the next time he is on a train, bus, Luas or DART. For every ten passengers he sees, he should say good-bye to one. When they go back to their cars, they will contributing to the cost of congestion. To the Irish State, that comes in at approximately \u20ac0.5 billion each year. The Minister of State's own Department has modelled the cost of congestion to reach between \u20ac1.5 billion and \u20ac2 billion each year by 2040, if unmitigated. The Minister of State does not care about these issues. The Government cannot do forward planning; it is simply too fragile. Rather than adopting a sensible, long-term and sustainable approach to social policy underpinned by the capacity on our roads and of our public transport services and the long-term health of our population, it simply adds 5% here and 20% there, playing a direct role in the ever-increasing cost of existing in this country. A good friend told me before that if you find yourself complaining about traffic, you are in traffic. For some, there is a real, tangible helplessness around that. Their job or location might dictate their journey type. As policymakers, we have not even scratched the surface when it comes to the potential of public transport. We were getting there; it was arguably the finest legacy of the Fine Gael, Fianna F\u00e1il and Green Party Government. For some reason, whether it is a shift in political priorities from moving people to moving cars, roads budgets rather than PSO budgets, it is different now. The T\u00e1naiste, Deputy Simon Harris, will criticise you if you do not go to work; this Government will punish you if you do go to work. People will sit in congestion for hours each day or, if they are lucky, they will now pay more for the privilege of a seat on public transport. I was worried when I read that the Minister of State rejected out of hand the correspondence sent to him by the Just Transition Commission of Ireland. That should be a major red flag to us all. The calibre of the membership of that commission and the evidence-based work they do should fundamentally underlie and inform our policy work. Did the Minister of State reject it out of hand? How could he possibly disagree with its assertions? Did he make any attempt to seek funding from the annual underspend on ring-fenced carbon tax budgets in his Department? That sum was \u20ac160 million last year, in his Department. In good faith, I urge the Minister of State to reconsider this decision and review the evidence. I implore him to back public transport users and champion the need for an even greater number of people to turn away from their cars and to be able to rely on and pay for public transport. It is possible with leadership and long-term commitment. It starts with reversing this decision to increase public transport fares."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Liam Quaide","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Liam Quaide I commend Deputy Farrelly on his work on this important motion. The Government's decision to increase public transport fares is particularly maddening in my constituency of Cork East, where commuters are already dealing with serious deficiencies in public transport provision. The commuter rail services from Midleton and Cobh into Cork city have been a tremendous success. They are excellent services that people value enormously, and demand for them continues to grow. However, the overcrowding at peak times has reached farcical proportions. Commuters are regularly packed into two-carriage trains, jammed up against one another, struggling to find somewhere to stand, never mind sit. In September, a train driver had to leave their cab to prevent more passengers boarding at Glounthaune and Little Island because the train was already dangerously overcrowded. Irish Rail acknowledges the problem but its response has been that there are simply no spare carriages available. In this instance, we have a hugely successful commuter rail service, yet cannot provide enough carriages to accommodate the people using it. It is as if we were living in an impoverished country struggling to provide the most basic infrastructure. I strongly suspect that the Department of public expenditure's ruthless grip on funding the basics has struck again here. Now the Government has the audacity to tell these commuters that they should pay more for the privilege. If the rail service is a success undermined by overcrowding, the bus service throughout Cork East is an altogether more dismal story. Consider Youghal, a major town with no passenger railway, whose residents have been condemned to endure an appallingly unreliable and inefficient bus service. The journey from Youghal to Cork, a distance of approximately 50 km, can take almost two hours at peak times - two hours to travel 50 km, in 2026. That is when the bus actually turns up. Last Friday, the 7 a.m. service from Youghal to the Munster Technological University campus was cancelled. Imagine depending on that service to get to college or work. Across east Cork, people without cars face enormous difficulties accessing employment, education and healthcare. For those who do have cars, these services provide precious little incentive to leave them at home. How can the Government seriously expect people to make the switch to public transport when the alternative is so unreliable or overcrowded and now increasingly expensive? These fare increases should be reversed. The Government needs to provide enough train carriages, reliable bus services and affordable fares. These are basic expectations in a country with a flourishing economy, and commuters have every right to expect better."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jen Cummins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jen Cummins I thank Deputy Farrelly for this very timely motion. I welcome to the Gallery all the people who came in to speak in the audiovisual room. I also welcome the four students who are on work experience. They are very welcome and I thank them for all the work they are doing this week. At a time when the cost of living is so high, everything is increasing - grocery prices, the cost of fuel, rents and mortgages, and the cost of education. Now there is a rising cost in public transport. It is one kick after the next and people are really fed up. I will describe how the NTA has managed to annoy people in Dublin South-Central over the past while. I had four public meetings about the 80 bus from Chapelizod into town. They changed the route, then they had to change it again. There were ghost buses and it was an absolute disaster. The NTA accepted that it was not correct and has almost corrected it. People in Chapelizod are absolutely fed up with the fact that they have a bus that is supposed to be reliable but is not, and now they have to pay more for a service that has not been exemplary. It is the same with the F1, F2, F3 and S4. They are constantly late. People are unable to rely on them. There are three buses going the same route; I cannot understand that. People in Inchicore and Bluebell were told in the summer that there was no money left in the NTA and it could not do anything about the route connecting the community of Bluebell and Inchicore back into Meath Street, where traditionally people have done their shopping. They were told there was not enough money in the NTA. I say to the Minister of State that people pay their taxes for things like bus and Luas services, and they pay their fares. It is not like they are getting that service for free. They pay for it in their taxes and they also pay to use it. The fact that the NTA has run out of money is not the fault of the person who uses the bus or Luas; it is the fault of the Government that has not funded it properly. Maybe we could argue that the NTA has not used it properly but that has nothing to do with the person who is using the bus or train to get from A to B. People are fed up. They cannot keep paying out for the Government not to put in place the public services that should exist. Let us be honest. For people who take public transport, which I do if I am not cycling or walking, we could get on a Luas and be packed in like sardines. We are absolutely jammed in beside each other. For those who use a wheelchair or have a buggy, good luck trying to get on. It is the same for the bus early in the morning or at commuter times. Those who have any mobility issues will not be able to get on because it is absolutely jammed. There are not enough services but people are now expected to pay more. For those who are struggling, and that is a lot of people, the increase in the fares is going to put people back in their cars, which is exactly what we do not want in respect of our emissions."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Gary Gannon I thank Deputy Farrelly for the heart he brings to the issue of public transport. What people find so frustrating about Government is that faced with crises, it just keeps failing to do the obvious. The reason we are here this morning and the reason the Social Democrats have afforded their Private Members' business time to this issue is in a cost-of-living crisis, the Minister of State's Department and the Government are standing over an increase in bus fares. That is incredible. We are simply here because we want the Government to get the basics right. Being able to afford to get to work, college, a hospital appointment or home to a family without eating into a budget that is already overstretched should not be seen as a luxury. They are basic expectations of a functioning government, yet from January, the Minister of State's Department and the Government will preside over a 15% increase in transport fares. I sometimes wonder whether the Government appreciates the level of increased anger in communities. If it does appreciate it, its response seems to be to seek somebody to blame. There is a world in which a leader takes to a stage and instead of seeking to throw people on social welfare under the bus, that leader would talk about how we can get more people onto buses cheaper and for free, but that does not exist in a Government that seeks only to afford blame and never provide leadership. It seems to think the answer is another performance of toughness, another group to point the finger at or another announcement designed to show who it is prepared to come down hard on. People wake up in the morning and wonder how they are getting to work. They do not wonder who the Government is going to blame for its failures. That is where the Government's attention should be. I could spend every second of these three minutes talking about the failures within our bus and transport services, including the ghost buses, the fact that people are standing at bus stops for over an hour watching two or three full buses pass by and ask how the Government seeks to achieve a service that is worthy of a modern republic that has the wealth to invest in a public transport initiative. At this moment in time, however, all we are seeking from the Government is a commitment that there will not be a 15% increase in transport costs. What does the Minister of State think will be the implications of that? What we are talking about here is a minimal expectation of allowing people the means to get to work or to a hospital appointment or where they need to go using public transport in a way that does not make them have to cut their cloth even further to the bone in a cost-of-living crisis. We have seen what this Government can do when it is able to find money and resources to provide for one particular group. This group we are asking for are simply people who use public transport. It is the Minister of State's responsibility, and the expectation is that he will solve this."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin Hayes","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Eoin Hayes I thank Deputy Farrelly for tabling the motion. I welcome the members of the commuter coalitions in the Gallery, in particular, Mr. Alex Garvey, transport advocate extraordinaire in my constituency. In my constituency in south Dublin, a huge number of people are reliant on public transport, including buses, Luas and the DART. Many of my constituents, although not all, are served well by public transport. We say \"Hello\" to the bus driver when we get on and we thank the bus driver when we leave. Many people are on their way to work or college or simply going about their business. Prams, wheelchairs, younger people getting up so older people can sit down - there is nothing more prosocial in my constituency than our shared use of public transport. As Dublin has grown and developed, public transport has become more vital to connect us. It has been a major focus of my constituency work because of its impact on the quality of life of my constituents but also because improving public transport is essential to meeting our climate obligations, particularly in cities. Therefore, imagine my shock and, indeed, genuine confusion when the Government decided to support an increase to public transport fares in the middle of a soaring cost-of-living crisis hitting every household in the country and the concurrent breakdown of climate internationally. I cannot think of the more aggressive step taken by a transport Minister in recent memory, and I mean that sincerely. I think of the nurses who are going to hospitals today in lieu of the public pay deal, the older person going to an appointment, the people who are going to school and college today and even the staff here in Leinster House who I meet on the bus occasionally. The Government is punishing the people who are most reliant and most in need of transport. This is punishing commuters. It is deliberately counterproductive to our climate goals. It is a concerted effort by the Government to increase the cost on households. That is absolutely shameful. It is antisocial and deeply regressive. If the Government had any notion of helping our citizenry, it would accept this motion and reverse the increases to public transport fares. I anticipate that it will not, however, because this Government is not for ordinary people using ordinary public transport; it is for something else and now we all have to pay for it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Canney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister of State at the Department of Transport (Deputy Se\u00e1n Canney) I move: To delete all words after \"D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann\" and substitute the following: \"affirms the Government's efforts to: \u2014 deliver a significant expansion of new and enhanced public transport services; \u2014 provide more frequent, reliable, accessible and sustainable public transport services; \u2014 maintain affordable fares and roll-out contactless payment systems across the network; \u2014 deliver major public transport projects, to expand capacity and connectivity; \u2014 reduce congestion and support households, businesses and regional growth; \u2014 place the Public Service Obligation (PSO) programme on a sustainable long-term footing; and \u2014 support the achievement of Ireland's climate and emissions reduction targets; and notes that: \u2014 Budget 2027 delivers a record \u20ac1.042 billion allocation to the PSO services across the bus, light rail and heavy rail networks, and this funding supports a significant expansion and enhancement of our public transport network, with approximately 140 new or enhanced services in the planning pipeline for 2027, across flagship programmes such as Connecting Ireland, BusConnects, and new town services; \u2014 following Budget 2027, the Department of Transport has been working closely with the National Transport Authority (NTA) and Transport for Ireland (TFI) operators, to develop a comprehensive service plan for 2027, focused on expanding and enhancing public transport services across the network, and the plan will be supported by the increased PSO funding provided in the Budget, together with projected revenue from the planned fare adjustments; \u2014 the Government also remains committed to the timely delivery of major public transport infrastructure projects, underpinned by a record allocation of \u20ac24.3 billion for transport in the National Development Plan (NDP) 2026-2030, and this unprecedented investment will support the delivery of transformative projects across the country, enhancing mobility, reducing congestion, strengthening regional connectivity and advancing Ireland's climate objectives; \u2014 the Government has committed unprecedented levels of investment in transport, increasing funding by almost 87 per cent compared to the previous five-year period, and while the scale of investment is significant, the delivery of major infrastructure projects requires a phased approach, with funding prioritised to ensure projects are progressed efficiently and provide maximum benefit for passengers and taxpayers; \u2014 more than \u20ac18 billion has been allocated to public transport capital investment under the NDP and the Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund over the period 2026-2030, supporting the advancement of transformative projects including MetroLink, Luas Finglas, DART+, the Western Rail Corridor, the Limerick to Foynes rail line reinstatement, capacity enhancement projects between Hazelhatch to Portarlington stations, Galway to Athenry stations, the Cork Area Commuter Rail Programme and the BusConnects programme, and this investment will also facilitate the roll-out of the new DART+ fleet and the commencement of early construction works on DART+ West route, helping to expand capacity, improve connectivity and enhance public transport services across the country; \u2014 the continued growth in passenger demand demonstrates increasing public confidence in the public transport network, highlights the success of ongoing investment in services and infrastructure, and it also underscores the importance of maintaining and expanding capacity through sustained investment, ensuring that the network can continue to meet rising demand, support economic activity, reduce congestion, and facilitate the transition to more sustainable travel patterns, in line with Ireland's climate objectives; \u2014 last year saw an increase of almost 20 million journeys, or 6 per cent, compared with 343.6 million journeys in 2024, reflecting the growing role of public transport in meeting the daily travel needs of communities across the country; \u2014 a strong example of this progress is Connecting Ireland, which has delivered a step-change in rural public transport connectivity since its launch in 2022, with over 180 new and enhanced services introduced nationwide and almost 8 million passenger journeys recorded in 2024, and the programme is improving access to employment, education, healthcare and social opportunities for communities across rural Ireland; \u2014 a sustainable level of passenger fare revenue is fundamental to the long-term resilience and financial sustainability of the public transport network, alongside Exchequer support, fare revenue underpins the provision of existing services, enables investment in new and enhanced services, and ensures the network can continue to grow in response to increasing demand, while delivering value for money for both passengers and taxpayers; \u2014 the Government recognises that an affordable, reliable and accessible public transport network is essential to encouraging a sustained shift away from private car use and achieving wider economic, social and climate objectives; \u2014 since 2022, passengers have benefited from a range of significant affordability measures, including: \u2014 a 20 per cent cost of living fare reduction; \u2014 the extension of the 90-minute fare; \u2014 a 50 per cent Young Adult and Student discount; \u2014 free travel for children aged under nine; \u2014 expanded eligibility under the Free Travel Scheme, administered by the Department of Social Protection; \u2014 while adult fares will increase, many child fares will be reduced, and young adult fares will remain discounted at 50 per cent, helping to improve affordability for families and young people; and \u2014 free travel will continue for everyone eligible, including the under nines and the over 65s; \u2014 this means 1.5 million people, or almost 27 per cent of our population, enjoy free travel on the basis of their age; \u2014 these measures have been accompanied by strong growth in passenger demand, with a record 363.5 million journeys made across the TFI network in 2025, and this sustained increase in patronage reflects growing reliance on public transport and highlights the need for continued investment to maintain, enhance and expand services in line with passenger needs; \u2014 the NTA continues to work closely with operators to improve efficiency and maximise value for money from both public funding and fare revenue, however, the significant expansion of services in recent years, coupled with increasing operating costs, means that a sustainable public transport system requires an appropriate balance between Exchequer support and passenger fare revenue; and \u2014 against this backdrop, public transport remains highly affordable and competitive, even following the 2027 fare adjustment, fares will remain approximately 8 per cent lower in real terms than they were eight years ago, and the additional revenue generated, alongside continued Government investment, will support improved capacity and reliability, help meet rising demand, facilitate further service enhancements, and ensure the continued delivery of the Government's public transport and climate ambitions.\". I thank the Deputies for their contributions. Before I go into what is in the script, I want to say two things. I think everybody who has spoken and the Government have the same thing in mind, which is to have a public transport system that does not have ghost buses, that is on time, that provides frequency and that gets the nurses and people to school and work and does so efficiently. Every public transport service we put in place is subsidised. There is no public transport service making a profit. I think I heard the work \"sustainable\" from Deputy Farrelly. I have listened in this House over the past two years to people criticising the services they have or do not have, such as signage not being right, missing buses and all of that. That is what we intend to correct. I just want to say that, so that everybody will have a public transport service that they can rely on and that they can use and continue to use rather than have to contemplate buying a car. That is my role in all of this. I have listened to what the Deputies said and I have taken notes. I was in County Cork last weekend. I was talking to members of the Cork Chamber of Commerce. We talked about all the infrastructure that is being built there for rail and all of the things that are being done there. Again, they told me there is a problem with overcrowding. There is an overcrowding problem in Galway. We are going to rectify that, but what we have to do is have public transport on a sustainable level from the start. The fare adjustments are necessary to help address the cost of increases experienced across public transport. They will also contribute to the continued delivery and expansion of key transport programmes including BusConnects, Connecting Ireland and DART+. Despite fare revenue contributing approximately 38% of the public service obligation, PSO, nationally, this remains below the European average of 44%, requiring significant Exchequer funding. The Government investment in the PSO programme in 2025 amounted to \u20ac850 million, including the additional supplementary allocation of \u20ac192 million to sustain and enhance transport services across the network. Further increases in the investment will be coming in 2026 and 2027. The cost of delivering subsidised transport has risen substantially for different reasons since 2022, with significant increases in costs. Over the same period, fare reduction measures were introduced, including a 20% cost-of-living discount, a 50% young adult card discount and free travel for children aged under nine. These measures have expanded access to affordable public transport, with approximately 1.5 million people - it is important to say this - or 27% of our population now eligible for free or discounted travel. These measures are in addition to what has now been an essential eight-year freeze on fare increases. While delivering important social and inclusion benefits, they have also increased the gap between the cost of operating services and the revenue recovered through fares. While maintaining affordable fares remains a key objective for this Government, it is equally important for passengers to ensure that sufficient resources are available to introduce new routes, increase service frequencies, improve reliability, enhance accessibility and connect more communities to public transport. That is what the Deputy was talking about when he tabled the motion. It is important to note that while adult fares will increase by an average of 15%, child fares are being reduced in several areas nationally. For example, in the Dublin commuter zone, regional cities, participating towns and Transport for Ireland, TFI, Local Link services, a new reduced child rate will apply, set at 33% of the equivalent adult rate. Importantly, the determination safeguards existing government-supported fare initiatives, including the free travel scheme, free travel for children under nine years of age, and free companion travel arrangements for those aged 70 and over, thereby maintaining important accessibility and social inclusion supports across the public transport network. Even with these planned changes, the National Transport Authority, NTA's assessment is that fares will remain approximately 8% lower in real terms than they were eight years ago. Notwithstanding any demand elasticity impacts associated with the fare adjustment, passenger numbers are expected to continue growing throughout 2027, reflecting strong underlying demand for public transport. Research consistently demonstrates that factors such as service availability, frequency, reliability, journey times and overall service quality have a greater influence on travel behaviour than fares. Continued investment is our motto. To further advance these efforts, budget 2027 delivers a record \u20ac1.042 billion allocation to public service obligation, PSO, services across the bus, light rail and heavy rail networks. This funding supports a significant expansion and enhancement of our public transport network, with approximately 140 new or enhanced services in the planning pipeline for 2027. We will be publishing that plan before the end of this year. These service enhancements are across flagship programmes such as Connecting Ireland, BusConnects, and new town services. In this regard, officials in the Department have been working closely with the NTA and Transport for Ireland operators to develop a comprehensive service plan for 2027. The Government has also prioritised balanced regional development through continued investment in rural transport services. I see that myself in Galway where we now have local link buses coming from villages and bringing people into the city. They are picking people up from places where there is no other bus service. I see it happening around the country and that will continue. The allocation will also maintain ring-fenced funding for the dedicated rural transport programme, supporting local link services across the country and ensuring that communities in rural areas continue to have access to essential demand-responsive transport services. As the Deputies will be aware, the Connecting Ireland rural mobility plan is a major public transport initiative developed by the NTA to increase connectivity outside of our major cities and towns. It has seen exponential growth over the last few years, with 185 new and expanded services rolled out since 2022. Over 240 towns and villages have been connected to the public transport network, and it is this investment that the Government will continue to support through the reinvestment of fare revenue. A critical element of this funding is to allow all citizens to access these essential services, and therefore the Department is prioritising ensuring these services are accessible for all, including people with a disability. Accessibility improvements are being advanced through three key strands: embedding universal design in all new infrastructure projects; increasing investment to retrofit legacy infrastructure and supporting a \"turn up and go\" experience; and expanding independent travel supports, including the NTA's independent travel support scheme to additional urban rural areas. We fully recognise the significant pressures facing the public transport sector, including those arising from global economic developments and increased operating costs. The Department and the NTA continue to work closely with public transport operators to monitor demand, assess operational impacts and ensure the network remains responsive to emerging challenges. It is therefore essential that measures introduced be carefully targeted and sustainable, ensuring that they deliver meaningful benefits for passengers while supporting the long-term resilience of the public transport system. The National Transport Authority continuously monitors the punctuality, reliability, and demand for services. I have met the NTA in relation to bus services here in Dublin and elsewhere, to make sure that it makes the changes to make the services more workable. It is recognised that reliability and service frequency remain ongoing challenges across parts of the public transport network, driven by factors such as traffic congestion, workforce shortages, particularly among drivers and mechanics, and other operational incidents. I dealt with a Topical Issue yesterday morning in relation to congestion on trains in Cork. Next year, we will be putting additional carriages into the public transport system, freeing up carriages that we can put onto the Intercity routes to help with that congestion. Right now, every available carriage is being used for public transport. Apart from those undergoing scheduled maintenance, every carriage is out there on the rail lines. The Government is committed to significant investment in our transport system. In budget 2027, we allocated an additional \u20ac6 billion for the progression of MetroLink. Total public transport capital investment in the current national development plan period will be over \u20ac18 billion. This investment will advance a range of transformative projects across the country, including MetroLink, Luas Finglas, DART+, Cork area commuter rail, the reinstatement of the western rail corridor between Claremorris and Athenry, the Foynes rail freight line reinstatement and BusConnects programmes in Dublin, Cork, Galway, Limerick and Waterford."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Whitmore I just want to get something straight. At a time when the UN is warning that we are about to breach 1.5 oC global warming; when transport emissions in Ireland are stubbornly high, year in and year out; when 70% of all daily trips are made in private cars; and when we are facing \u20ac26 billion in fines from the EU for not meeting our climate targets, this is the Government's answer when it comes to public transport. At a time when Dublin is the third most congested city in the world, when we have the M50 at a standstill every day and when there is no longer a peak time - every hour is peak time in Ireland - the Government's answer is to raise prices on public transport. At a time when wars in Ukraine and Iran have crippled world economies and pushed up fossil fuel prices, hitting the most vulnerable people in our communities who are unable to pay for their energy and their fuel, the Government's answer is to these problems is to make it more expensive for people to use public transport. That is exactly what the Government is doing - making it more expensive. This policy is nonsensical, regressive and is not based on any of the evidence. I would ask the Government and the Minister of State to walk away from it because it does not make any sense. The Minister of State spoke about the need to have money in order to make the service better for people. I am a TD for the Wicklow constituency and I know how underserved public transport has been. My constituents are continuously calling out a substandard public transport system in Wicklow. They were promised a No. 199 bus, one of the so-called enhanced services. That was meant to start last September but it is the bus that never showed up at all. We have other buses from Go-Ahead that are unreliable because they are constantly being caught up in congestion. They are being cancelled regularly and there are inconsistent timetables. We have bus services in the west of Wicklow that have not been upgraded for 20 years. My constituents and I understand the problems arising from having an unreliable and infrequent public transport service but that service must be affordable as well. That seems to be the element that the Government has forgotten in all of this. It must be affordable. We need to encourage people to move out of cars. While it may not seem like a lot of money to the Minister of State, these fare increases are going to hit the most vulnerable people in our communities. I ask the Minister of State to listen carefully to the speeches today from across all benches and to reconsider this policy. The Government is currently paying \u20ac100 million per month in excise cuts for fossil fuel subsidies for cars. This is \u20ac70 million. I ask the Minister of State to change his decision on this."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney I am just shocked. Two years into this Government's handling of many different challenges in this society, this one just screams \"out of touch\". It is not just that it is on top of a cost-of-living crisis, soaring rents and house prices, soaring energy prices and people squeezed at every single juncture of their lives. It is that the Government chooses to increase public transport costs. It is genuinely mind-boggling that it has chosen to do it. It is not just that we are in an energy and climate crisis where we are not reaching our targets by any stretch of the imagination, and where the Government has signalled that it is happy to just take the hit on EU fines rather than do the work to invest in a just transition that could benefit our economy, society and the globe. It is not just that this is a moment in time when every country on the globe is trying to move towards active and public transport as the appropriate direction of travel, pun intended. It is that the Government does not get that people are being so pushed on this. It is that its whole policy direction is wrong. It is what it signifies. What the Government should be looking towards is not just what the Minister of State has covered in his speech, which was all about the shortcomings of the public transport system that we all endure daily. Rather, it is affordability. It is the signal to our population that active and public transport is where we should all be moving to - out of our cars and onto buses, the Luas, DARTs and commutes that actually work for people at a time when they need that so much. I take this moment to reiterate what our vision of a social democracy is. It is where you pay your taxes and, in return, you get a suite of public services like transport, healthcare, education, childcare, disability services and climate mitigation. These are the things we should be able to rely on to live a life of dignity no matter what challenges we face. This Government does not seem to get that. It instead seems to see relying on the market, privatisation where it can and lining the pockets of corporate interests that lobby it day by day as the best way to resolve all of the crises we face as a society. This is so tone deaf and I wonder if the Government sees the Ireland I see. Does it see the people on our streets hungry and homeless? Does it see the commuters stretched and stressed every day trying to make ends meet and fend for their families? If it did, it would not do this."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Rory Hearne The refusal to back down on this particular policy is illogical and really frustrating because the Government has a significant budget surplus, yet it is adding this cost to commuters when there is no reason the Government could not cover it. It could make, in budgetary terms, a simple and small action that would do two things. First, it would help people who are struggling. It would help people who are paying for public transport, and who have to get on the bus or the Luas and take the trains, and who are reliant on it. They have to pay that in order to get to work or to hospital. The Government could actually help them. The Taoiseach gets up week after week and frames it about the budget, how there is only so much that the Government can do, how this situation is out of its hands and how energy costs are spiralling internationally. This is something that the Government could do. It is completely in the Government's control. It could decide today that there would be no fare increases. Let us make that clear to the people of this country."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney Hear, hear."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Rory Hearne Fianna F\u00e1il, Fine Gael and the Independents could do something that would help people and make things a little easier. Obviously, it is a small amount, but it would still be significant. The Government could stop that fare increase. Why will it not do so? The second thing pausing it would do is send a signal that we want people on public transport, and that we support them and want people to get out of their cars. In my constituency, I have been campaigning to get a proper public bus service that would work for people and with them. We have got some changes that have made a difference, but it is still not a quality public service that people can rely on. There are still issues with ghost buses and overcrowding on the buses. People cannot get to work. They cannot rely on things. They cannot get to the hospital. There is so much wealth in this country. It comes back to what my colleague said earlier about a social democracy. The difference between the Social Democrats and Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael is that we believe in public services, and we will fund them to make sure that they work for people and that everyone in this country has access to decent public transport."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pa Daly Sinn F\u00e9in supports this motion and we thank the Social Democrats for tabling it. The planned public transport fare increases are unfair and completely out of touch with the reality facing ordinary people. Families are being squeezed from every direction between rents, mortgage repayments, grocery bills, energy costs among the highest in Europe and childcare costs. Now, the Government wants commuters to dig even deeper into their pockets. The NTA intends to impose fare increases averaging 15%, with some increases reaching as high as 35%. That is clearly not a minor adjustment. What makes it even more insulting is that passengers are being asked to pay more for a service that too often fails them with overcrowded trains, buses that never show up, delays and cancellations. The Government wants them to pay more for this privilege. The truth is that this decision exposes a fundamental contradiction at the heart of Government transport policy. Ministers constantly tell us that they want people to leave their cars at home and that they want to tackle congestion and reduce emissions. They claim that they are serious about climate action, but the same Government is proposing to increase the cost of public transport. That makes absolutely no sense. The NTA's figures acknowledge that a 10% increase in fares can result in a 3% drop in passenger numbers. The truth is that Fianna F\u00e1il, Fine Gael and the Independents know that higher fares will push people away from using public transport. This undermines their so-called objectives on affordability, climate and modal shift. Unsurprisingly, they are pushing ahead anyway. It is rhetoric rather than action and not a credible plan. Particularly frustrating is that these fare increases are being proposed at the wrong time. Public transport demand is growing rapidly. Between 2019 and 2025, it increased by approximately 21%, which is almost double the rate of population growth. In 2025 alone, there were 363 million passenger journeys on the Transport for Ireland network. Local Link carried almost 7 million passenger journeys, which is an increase of 19% in a single year. What is the Government's response? It is to make it more expensive for them. These passenger numbers should have been the signal to advance capacity, improve reliability and accelerate investment. Instead, the Government is penalising people for using public transport. Communities in my constituency of Kerry and throughout rural Ireland continue to wait for transport services that they were promised years ago. The roll-out of Connecting Ireland has slowed dramatically. Many villages remain poorly connected and bus services that were in place a number of years ago have now been reduced or have disappeared altogether. I am talking about routes from Kilflynn to Abbeydorney and from Lixnaw to Tralee in particular. Young people in those areas without access to a car remain isolated. Older people are struggling to access services, but the Government's priority is to increase fares and communities are being left behind. The Government will undoubtedly claim that there is no money, but according to the motion before the House, reversing these fare increases would cost approximately \u20ac70 million. It sounds like a significant figure until you put it into context. That is approximately 1.3% of the Department of Transport's overall budget for 2027. The Government is asking commuters, students and working families to pay more to save an amount that barely registers. It tells us everything we need to know about the priorities of the Government. Sinn F\u00e9in believes that public transport should be affordable, reliable and accessible. We believe that investment should focus on passengers, not balance sheets, and that rural communities deserve the same level of ambition as major urban centres. We believe that the Government should go much further than preventing these fare increases and that is why we called for free public transport for all under-18s in our recent alternative budget. When families are under relentless pressure, that measure would reduce costs, tactical child poverty and encourage sustainable travel habits from an early age. We are clear. These fares are wrong. They should be scrapped immediately and we support the motion."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louis O'Hara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Louis O'Hara Every day, commuters are forced onto unreliable and overcrowded services. I have constantly highlighted issues from my constituency where people are becoming unwell on overcrowded services or are being left on the train platform or the side of road. It is simply outrageous that the Government believes that my constituents should have to pay even more for the substandard services that they have to travel on every day. Public transport is an essential public service for people to go about their daily lives. It is not a luxury, yet in the midst of a cost-of-living crisis, the Government is telling people that the cost of yet another everyday essential is going to rise. It stands in direct contrast to the claims that the Minister of State and his colleagues make that the Government is encouraging more people to use public transport when even the NTA itself has said that passenger numbers will fall as a result of this fare hike. Only four new services were introduced this year, which demonstrates a shocking lack of commitment to public transport from the Government. Now, it is expecting hard-pressed commuters to pick up the slack for its failure to properly fund our public transport system. That is unacceptable. The Government needs to stop this fare hike from going ahead. The Government also needs to address the service issues that I have raised in here many times before. Services are at crisis point. In particular, there is a lack of rail services and rail carriages. The town of Athenry has been waiting two years for its promised bus service while people are forced to cram onto severely overcrowded trains. The people of Gort, Kinvara and the wider south Galway area regularly contact my office in relation to lack of capacity and options on bus services and trains, with commuters being left on the side of the road because the services are full. The town of Loughrea and villages like Craughwell have fewer public transport services now than they did five years ago when they lost their Bus \u00c9ireann service. Too often, people are left stranded on the roadside as buses arrive in Loughrea completely full or well behind schedule. It is impossible for local people to rely on these services or to plan their day around them. A town the size of Loughrea and its surrounding villages deserve far better than that. We urgently need to see hourly services from Loughrea and surrounding areas to be restored. That is the bare minimum that residents there deserve. The NTA must include this in its plans for 2027 alongside the dedicated bus service for Athenry and improvements on those routes serving the south Galway area. Crucially, we need to see additional capacity on rail services."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett Proposals from the Government to increase public transport fares by up to 33% are entirely unjust and nonsensical. These fare increases will not impact as many people in Monaghan or Cavan, as we have very little access to bus services at all. It will not impact rail users in Monaghan or Cavan either, given the deprioritisation of our county by Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael following the strategic rail review. However, those who do have access to services are going to be expected to pay additionally for buses that turn up late, if they turn up at all. What will we get? The CEO of Bus \u00c9ireann got a \u20ac50,000 pay increase last year, bringing her total pay to \u20ac260,000. Dublin's bus chief saw an increase from \u20ac200,000 to \u20ac260,000. Irish Rail's chief's salary increased by \u20ac75,000 to \u20ac300,000. Of course, it should not go without mention that this is occurring at the same time that the Government is planning to increase road tolls, many of them on roads whose costs have been paid back to the private operators many times over already. To add insult to injury, departmental officials confirmed to me at the Committee of Public Accounts last week that they intended to double the cost of the school transport scheme next year. In the last three years, school buses have increased in price from \u20ac50 to \u20ac100. Now, people are going to pay \u20ac200 for their school bus transport next year. That is if they can get a school bus. So many pupils cannot get a school bus to school. It is ridiculous and is all happening under the watch of Fine Gael, Fianna F\u00e1il and the so-called Independents. Fine Gael and Fianna F\u00e1il seem to think that a person should be punished for having the audacity to go about their day-to-day life, be that going to work or hospital appointments or kids getting to school. This racket of ripping off commuters while lining the pockets of already lavishly paid executive needs to come to an end now. The transport system is already in chaos. It is broken for many users. The Government needs to rethink its proposals."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Louise O'Reilly I thank my colleague, Deputy Pa Daly, who tabled the original motion on fare hikes to the floor with the D\u00e1il. I want to thank Deputies for tabling the motion this morning because it gives the Government a chance to reflect on what is a very, very, very bad decision - a decision to punish commuters in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis. Last night, we debated the Sinn F\u00e9in motion on toll hikes. The Government is determined to get people every which way if they have the audacity to leave their house. In my constituency of Dublin Fingal West, we do not have a college, a university, a minor injuries unit or a primary care centre. As economic studies have shown us to be, we are underemployed for the population. My constituents been very badly served by consecutive Governments, including Fianna F\u00e1il, Fine Gael and the so-called Independents, who are not even a little bit independent because they nod every time the Government says it has a really bad decision to make. As a result, my constituents have no choice. They have to leave the area where they live in order to work, to go to hospital or to go to college. What does the Government do? It is after jacking up the fares already. Last year, it put fares up for people who had the neck to live in Dublin - to be Dubliners, for the most part. The Government took them out of the Dublin commuter zone and now they pay more already. They are Dubs. They live in Dublin. They take the train from Dublin, usually into town, and they are getting punished for that. Now, the Government is going to put fares up again. They have no choice. If they need to go to hospital, if they have an appointment or if they want to go to college, they have to take public transport or they have to drive. The Government is getting them every which way. If they take the M1, the M50 or the port tunnel, if they are standing on the side of the road waiting on a ghost bus or one that only eventually arrives, the Government is going to get them. If they are squashed onto overcrowded trains, it is going to get them. There will not be any enhanced services. The NTA has confirmed that to me. There will be no new bus routes next year, no investment beyond that which has been announced and announced to death. Regarding battery-operated trains, we know they are coming because we can see them sitting in the station. They are just not yet operational. For the moment, my constituents, who keep being told that they will get battery-operated trains at some point - indeed, they will - have to squash onto overcrowd trains and the Government is telling them that they have to pay more. The Government gives them absolutely no option. It has starved the area of resources and now it is telling them this. If I could have the Minister of State's attention for a moment, the very least the Government should be doing in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis - I would not expect more than the very least from it - is not making things worse for people."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mark Ward I thank the Social Democrats for giving us another opportunity to discuss this important issue. The Government wants to get people out of cars and onto public transport, so one would think that the very first thing it would do is make public transport more accessible. Increasing public transport fares in the midst of a cost-of-living crisis is bonkers. Common sense would tell us that, but when it comes to Fianna F\u00e1il, Fine Gael and, as in the Minister of State's case, the Independents, common sense is not very common. Not only is the Government expecting people to pay more, but it is actually asking them to pay more for less. It expects families, workers, students, pensioners and other commuters to pay more for less. Services are not being delivered and ghost buses are becoming the norm. Major public transport projects are years behind schedule. In my area, we have the Clonburris development. There will be over 10,000 homes there. I was on the council when the plan was being developed. Services like transport, schools and other public amenities were meant to go hand in hand with this development. We spent hours debating this and trying to ensure that the plan was fully integrated. Not everybody agreed on the plan at the council and people had different ways of doing things, but we all agreed that we had to have adequate public transport in the plan. In fairness, to South Dublin County Council, it played its part and produced a plan but successive Government Ministers have not been doing their jobs. One of the big areas where we are being let down is public transport. The continual delays to DART+ South West have had a huge impact on residents. I am frequently contacted by residents who bought homes in a strategic development zone. This was approved and fast-tracked on the promise of sustainable, high-frequency, high-capacity public transport. Instead, homeowners, residents and commuters have been left with an under-resourced rail service that is already failing to cope with the current demand. Peak-hour services are constantly beyond capacity. Passengers at Clondalkin and Fonthill train stations are regularly left to stand in cramped and unsafe conditions, and sometimes they struggle to board the trains at all. Carriages are frequently excessively hot and stuffy, creating an unpleasant passenger experience. In the brief time I have left, I call on the Government to bring forward DART+ South West; to increase carriage capacity along the line, particularly at Kishoge, Clondalkin and Fonthill stations; and to address the overheating and ventilation issues and the continual delays of trains."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Donnelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Donnelly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-Donnelly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul Donnelly The mixed messages coming from the Government are infuriating people. On the one hand, the Government talks about developing sustainable public transport systems, investing in active travel and encouraging people out of cars and onto public transport, but here we have an increase in public transport costs. It makes no sense whatsoever. The Government should be using the billions we have in extra taxes to invest in public transport now, specifically more buses, more trains, better active travel and cycling lanes. We have a more expensive and deteriorating bus service in Dublin West. People are deeply frustrated with ghost buses, electronic noticeboards that do not work and trains that are rammed. Irish Rail tells us that it is at capacity, and no extra carriages will be available soon. I was contacted recently by young people from Edmund Rice College who told me they are often left standing on the platform when they cannot get a train because it is full. Safe cycling routes from Clonsilla and Ongar are not an option at the moment due to several dangerous pinch points. In ever-expanding areas like Tyrrelstown, Kilmartin, Hollywoodrath, Ongar and Hansfield, public transport provision lags well behind development. The development of 18,000 new homes in Dunsink was recently in the news, but the NTA tells us that the public transport system it is based on - the Luas - is years away. The NTA will not even look at its provision until the mid-2030s. The Metro West from Tallaght through Blanchardstown to the airport has been knocked on the head until at least 2042. It was supposed to run past my house. Dublin West has a population of 140,000 people and yet does not have a direct bus service to the airport. How shocking is that? If the Government is really serious about getting people out of their cars, it should invest in our public transport network, introduce free fares for all children and young people, and provide the funding now. It is there. There are billions in surplus for more reliable and frequent bus, rail and metro services. The Government should give the NTA the money now to kick-start Metro West and the Luas to Tyrrelstown through Dunsink lands, and to ensure Dublin Bus has the funds to get more buses on the road. We all know we cannot continue to keep filling our roads with cars. The M50 is at capacity. The Government has been told this for the past year. Nothing more can be done with it. All of us here are asking the Government to give people a genuine opportunity to get out of their cars by investing in a fast, reliable, efficient and cheap public transport system."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Natasha Newsome Drennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan I strongly support this motion. The planned hike in public transport fares is nothing less than a slap in the face to ordinary workers and families throughout the country. These workers and families are already being squeezed to the limit due to the continuous failure of Fine Gael and Fianna F\u00e1il Governments to combat the cost-of-living crisis. When Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael hike fares, they are penalising those who are simply trying to get to work in town or attend appointments. It is an insult to tell people in rural areas to switch to public transport to help to save the environment while the Government chips away at existing routes. This year, the Expressway 4 bus route has been massively reduced, forcing scores of people back into their cars. I walk around Dublin and all I see is an endless selection of buses and trains, but when I go home to south Kilkenny, there is no bus to Kilkenny city. Scores of families cannot even get access to a bus to school. All we hear from Fianna F\u00e1il is about all the new services for Dublin, but what about the rest of the State? At Kilkenny city train station, people with mobility issues struggle to access the platform. For years, they have campaigned for the lift at MacDonagh Station to be opened. The lift there was handed over 19 years ago, and for 19 years it has been closed to the public. The Government cannot even open an elevator in Kilkenny, but it wants everybody to pay more. For how long have we had to listen to the Government telling people to get out of their cars and use public transport? It is punishing people for doing so. For years, Sinn F\u00e9in has pushed for affordable and accessible public transport. We should be here talking about expanding services, reducing costs and making public transport the easiest and most affordable option for everybody, but instead we are here opposing the Government's price increases for a substandard service. I do not know about the Minister of State but people come to me regularly telling me about the cost-of-living crisis, and surely to God they are coming to members of the Government as well. They should open their eyes and see what is going on here. People cannot afford to pay more. It is as simple as that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ciar\u00e1n Ahern","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ciar\u00e1n Ahern I thank the Social Democrats and Deputy Farrelly for bring this motion forward. I also welcome the commuter coalitions from across the country and thank them for their vital advocacy work for public transport across the country. The Labour Party will of course be supporting today's motion. This week, the Minister is not with us because he has his climate hat on and is leading the EU delegation at COP31. I am sure the Minister is going to talk to delegates there about Ireland's climate ambition, about delivery, about how seriously our Government takes the climate crisis and about the actions required to mitigate its impacts. Blah, blah, blah. The Minister can wax lyrical all he wants on the international stage about Ireland's commitment to positive climate action. The reality at home is not only that he and this Government are failing, but that they are actively undermining the efforts to reach our climate targets. The fare increase is just one example. Last week, the Labour Party released its climate scorecard. This is a comprehensive analysis of Government climate commitments made since 2020. When Fine Gael and Fianna F\u00e1il entered into a coalition with the Green Party in 2020, the programme for Government made 148 commitments relating to the climate and environment in its Green New Deal section. Six years on, 60% of those commitments remain undelivered, with many outright reneged on. Some 78% of priority recommendations on climate and the environment made by bodies like the Climate Change Advisory Council, the SEAI, the European Commission and the Citizens' Assembly on Biodiversity Loss have been ignored by the Government. We know that transport accounts for roughly one fifth of our emissions. It is a sector where we have been failing for years. Emissions have effectively been stuck, not falling. The first carbon budget for transport was exceeded. The SEAI has told us that since September of last year, the sector has effectively been suspending the allocation it was given for the period from 2026 to 2030. The second budget is only 37 million tonnes, and we started that period already in deficit. Any overshoot of the carbon budget is carried forward and deducted from what we have left. This means that every tonne we fail to cut now makes the next cut harder and more expensive. The EPA projects that even under a \"with additional measures\" scenario, we will only reach about half of our 2030 emissions reduction targets in the transport sector. What do we do about it? The answer is not some great mystery. It is the same answer that every serious analysis has given for years: avoid, shift and improve. The shift is the part where public transport does the work. When a person leaves the car at home and takes the bus, it is the most direct climate action our transport system can deliver. We should be rewarding that choice, but what does the Government do? It makes it more difficult for people to use sustainable transport. From January, the NTA will increase adult fares by an average of 15%, and in some places the rises will be far higher. This is absolutely ludicrous. We know the impact this decision will have. The NTA has told the Joint Committee on Transport that higher fares will mean fewer people using public transport. Where will they go? They will go back to their cars. They will go onto the motorways that are already full and into the city centres that are already clogged. This policy will increase emissions and increase congestion on our roads, and it will do both on purpose. Anyone who knows about and cares about public transport, climate or quality of life is baffled by this decision. The only way that this could possibly make sense, in the context of a cost-of-living crisis, extremely healthy public finances and a climate crisis, is if the Government is actively trying to drive down numbers on public transport because of the massive capacity constraints we are currently seeing on our train and bus routes. This must be seen as an acceptance by this Government of its own failures to add capacity to our public transport routes. We all know the pressures that our public transport system is under. Deputies from across the country have spoken about it. My colleague, Deputy Wall, has been to the fore in highlighting the dangerous overcrowding on commuter rail journeys from Kildare to Dublin. It is happening across the country. There has been a sustained failure over decades to invest in more buses, train carriages, lines and routes. Now, when people want to use public transport, the Government is either unable or unwilling to respond by providing the necessary extra capacity so it puts the fares up to help to manage the issue. This same Government has been able to find \u20ac1.2 billion to cut excise duty to keep fossil fuels cheaper, but we cannot find the \u20ac70 million it would cost to keep public transport fares down. It is hard to think of a policy more perfectly designed to move people in the wrong direction. It is anti-climate and anti-worker. The people bearing the cost of this decision will be young workers on modest wages, students, people in commuter towns with no alternative, who will see their travel bills jump, and people in Dublin, Limerick, Galway and Waterford, where fares are being restructured upwards. If we want people outside the cities and in rural communities to leave their cars behind, we need services that are frequent, affordable and reliable. Higher fares push in the opposite direction. Government backbenchers have expressed their concern about these fare hikes in committee and on social media. If that concern is genuine, they should put their money where their mouths are and stop the crocodile tears. They have a vote and should use it to support this motion. The Labour Party's position is clear. We want these increases stopped. We want public transport and active travel funded as the essential services they are. Rather than hiking prices on public transport users, we want to move towards free public transport, starting with students and young people, because this is part of the society that we want to build. This is what people should be able to expect as a basic. It is where our climate commitments tell us we have to go."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-O'Donoghue.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Robert-O'Donoghue.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert O'Donoghue I thank the Social Democrats for bringing forward this important motion. I want to speak to the issue not because I am a public transport user but because I have received hundreds of messages, with pictures, examples of which I hold in my hand, from my constituents in Dublin Fingal West, particularly around the issue of overcrowding. I want to put on record some of the issues they have sent to me and some of their experiences regarding their journeys on public transport. Increased transport fees in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis is not a good look. Is the Government listening to people who are already put to the pins of their collars, week to week? Let me tell the Minister of State some of the experiences that my constituents have shared with me. The 33X and 101X bus routes are overcrowded with people sitting on floors and stairs. There are disabled people who are struggling to access services and people are regularly refused boarding because buses are already full. Rush and Lusk train station is not in Rush and is not in Lusk. That has become a mantra for me in this Chamber. I have raised the issue repeatedly. The bus timetables do not sync with the train timetable. Commuters are forced to drive, but there is no car parking at 7.30 a.m. I witnessed a passenger faint right next to me. Councillor Mark Boland provided the first aid that day. I have had two more reports in the past two weeks of other fainters, which delays trains and delays people getting to work. People are left waiting for a second or third train because there is simply no room, particularly on the recent truncated trains, as my colleagues from Sinn F\u00e9in and Fine Gael experienced yesterday. Checking the TFI app has become a way of life because buses disappear. The bus services do not properly accommodate getting students to St. Joseph's Secondary School on time to start school in the morning. The last two trains in the evenings do not sync with the bus timetable at Rush and Lusk train station, which means people either have to walk the 30 or 40 minutes to either town or get a taxi, which costs \u20ac15 or \u20ac20. That is just getting to and from work. Buses are cancelled due to congestion. In the middle of this travel chaos, the Government thinks that increasing fares is acceptable on a transport system that is increasingly creaking at the seams. Public transport should be a public service and not a financial burden. My constituents are not asking for luxury. They are looking for a service on which they can travel safely and get to work for a fare they can afford. I received a message this morning. My correspondent told me that they are on more money than ever before but they are scrounging every week to make it to Friday. An unexpected bill, they told me, does not mean dipping into savings or cutting back on a few luxuries, but means going without lunch because they need to ensure they have enough money to top up their Leap card. Their weekly food bill is over \u20ac300. There are no luxuries because there simply is not the money. Their health insurance is due in January and they are genuinely having to question whether they can afford the \u20ac200 per month. Their childcare cost has increased because their provider has pulled out of core funding, which is a considerable issue in Dublin Fingal West. My correspondent asked what is their reward for all of that. They do not get a seat on the train. They barely get a hand-hold on the train. They are physically crushed against the door because apparently the basic dignity of a safe, comfortable journey to work is too much to expect. The Government now wants them to pay more for the privilege. I ask the Minister of State what is going on. The reality is that so many people are one unexpected bill away from a crisis. I am asking the Minister of State to do the right thing. Reverse the hikes and do better for the people who are just looking for a bloody break."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Charles Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Charles-Ward.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Charles-Ward.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Charles Ward I thank the Social Democrats for bringing forward this motion. The proposed increase of 15% to fares, with some rising by as much as 30% next year, is a deeply disappointing backwards step. People cannot afford these additional daily costs. It is unacceptable that passengers have to pay significantly more for services that are already falling short, especially when there is no commitment to long-overdue investment and improvements needed to justify the increases. Donegal is a prime example. There is still no rail network in the county. We once had one. Everything was taken out of the county and nothing was put back. The county is completely forgotten and neglected when it comes to public transport and essential infrastructure. From the lack of gas connections and the lack of reliable broadband to poor roads, electricity and water infrastructure, the county is constantly being left behind. When it comes to investment and development, people in Donegal rely heavily on buses. When you are in rural Donegal, you have to rely on one bus per day to take you to a connecting town. Otherwise, you will have to take a car. Particularly in Letterkenny, the traffic is chronic. I have been contacted many times by people who have been left stranded on the side of the road for hours because their buses did not come and they could not get into college or work in time. That is the reality on the ground for people in Donegal. It is completely unacceptable. I will share one example of how we have been neglected. My children go to college and I am contacted by numerous parents. If they miss the bus in the morning or the bus does not show up, they cannot get in. They have to try to scramble to get a lift. This is happening in every small town outside the urban areas in Donegal. People are neglected and forgotten. It has been going on for years. We need to get a grip on this issue and put proper bus services in place for rural Ireland."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Seamus Healy For years, \"get out of your cars and use public transport\" has been the mantra of this Government and previous Governments. These fare increases drive the public in the opposite direction. It is simply madness. An affordable and reliable public transport service is needed to deal with daily living and the cost-of-living crisis, to ease traffic congestion and reduce carbon emissions, and to simply do the normal things, such as going to work and college, attending hospital appointments and doing the shopping. These increases, which are 15% or even as high as 30% or 35% in some cases, run counter to all accepted public transport and climate change initiatives. Other European countries are moving in the opposite direction, which is to reduce fares and even to provide free public transport. These fare increases are happening at a time of inadequate services, inadequate facilities and overcrowding on trains and buses. The travelling public are being asked to pay more for less. These increases should and must be stopped. As I have done in the past, I highlight the unacceptable situation at Clonmel Railway Station, which is a hub for trains and Bus \u00c9ireann buses. Large numbers of people wait there for connecting trains and buses. They wait outside the station in all weather - hail, rain and shine - while the station building remains closed. There is no access whatsoever to services there, including toilets, rest rooms or waiting areas. I have raised this issue repeatedly. I am told that internal works are eventually going to be done to provide a passenger waiting area, accessible toilets and changing areas and staff facilities. However, this will not happen until 2028. This is a very minor job in an existing building and should be commenced immediately. I ask the Minister of State to intervene with the NTA and Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann to ensure that happens."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul Murphy I thank the Social Democrats for bringing forward this excellent motion. The arguments for low-cost and free public transport are unanswerable. This would be a win for climate, a win for the cost of living, a win in reducing traffic congestion and a win for general quality of life. A government that cared about any of those issues would not be increasing fares during a climate and cost-of-living crisis. This Government knows, because the NTA has told it, that increasing fares will reduce public transport use. That is going to mean worse traffic jams. Everyone who is stuck in their cars for hours watching their life slip away day by day should thank Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael because they are the ones that knowingly make choices that make it worse. I wish to introduce an important fact into the debate. The NTA has told the Committee of Public Accounts, of which I am a member, that in all cases the operating cost per passenger is lower in 2025 than the 2019 equivalent figure. For city buses, the cost per passenger fell from \u20ac2.08 in 2019 money to \u20ac1.91 in 2025, which is an 8% drop. For commuter rail, it fell from \u20ac4.15 per journey to \u20ac3.80, which is an 8.4% drop. For intercity, it fell from \u20ac17.09 to \u20ac14.48, a whopping 15% drop. However, we know now thanks to a freedom of information request that the Government decided to increase fares by up to 25% in October 2025. It was a Government decision, not an NTA one, so we can stop pretending it is the NTA's fault. Nobody should be fooled. Even allowing for increases in fuel prices, which are partially offset by the VAT reduction and the electrification of buses, the Government cannot say it is increasing fares because of rising costs. It is increasing fares because it wants passengers to pay a bigger share of the overall cost of public transport. They are the passengers who are doing everyone else a favour by reducing pollution, traffic congestion and carbon emissions. The NTA tells us the reason for the drop in operating costs per passenger is growth in passenger numbers but the Government is increasing fares in the knowledge that this will cause passenger numbers to fall. Why is this? Maybe it is because the services are so hopelessly overcrowded and the Government has no plans to address that, so it wants to drive people out of public transport to reduce demand. The final thing to say is that this can still be stopped. I encourage the campaigning and organising to continue. We have until January. We can stop this outrageous increase."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Roderic O'Gorman I thank Deputy Farrelly for bringing forward this motion and the commuter groups for their ongoing pressure on this issue. Since this fare rise was announced, the mantra we have heard from the Government is that commuters who use bus and trains have a choice between one of two things. They can have affordable fares or they can have more and more frequent services but they cannot have both, according to this Government. The message we have to send from this Chamber is that is not true. This is a political choice Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael have made. It is possible to reduce fares, make them more affordable and increase services. That was done, led by the Green Party, in the last Government. We cut public transport fares for everybody by 20%. We introduced the young adult travel card and we got the finance in place for under-nines to go free. At the same time, we increased bus services. There were 56 new or enhanced bus services in 2024 and in 2023 there were 85. It is therefore possible to make life more affordable for commuters and to improve services if the political choice is made and the political will is there, but it is not there with this particular Government. To add insult to injury, this Government has decided to impose these significant fare increases, which are well ahead of inflation, in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis in January when everyone is going to be struggling at best. The only commitment or promise we have from this Government is that it will come back again in January 2028 and January 2029 with more fare demands. Freedom of information requests went in about this decision. When it was announced, Darragh O'Brien told us that this was about putting fares on a sustainable basis. That is not the case. This is about is about getting Jack Chambers and the Department of public expenditure off Darragh O'Brien's back. We know that clearly from the freedom of information requests that came out there. This is a political decision and a political choice. It is a money-saving choice. It has nothing to do with sustainability. It has nothing to do with the roll-out of new services next year. It can be reversed and there is going to be huge anger come January when commuters see the very significant hit they are taking in their pockets."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Collins The fare increase is a very unfair one. Last night we were fighting in relation to the tolls. Today we are discussing fares for people who are trying to go to work every day of the week, getting up early in the morning, especially the working person, and paying these exorbitant amounts for fuel. In \u20ac100 of petrol, \u20ac45 is already tax. This is a tax-hungry Government and there is no doubt about that. It wants to hit people for the little bit of transport they are getting in the morning and sometimes in the evening. It could be \u20ac5.20 for people coming in from an area like Bray for a return ticket. At the same time as that, there is no great delivery of the service either. I know it well from my own area because of the many tenders that were put out to start new routes last year that collapsed because there was no money. That was a nicely held secret by the Government all year but apparently there is money since the budget, so I would like to know about the Kealkill-Bantry-Macroom route. Maybe the Minister of State can tell me whether that is open. The people of Kealkill have no transport service, which is terribly unfair. I have attended meetings there and communicated with people back and forth. What about the tender that was put out for Clonakilty, Timoleague, Grange and all that area down there, including Barryroe? There was a tender put out there a year or a year and a half ago. Nothing happened. Is that transport service now going to be resurrected? Is it going to be run? We might move to the train service we do not have in west Cork. There is no connectivity there. Connecting Ireland is not connecting Ireland when it is not connected. I do not know when we are ever going to come to the stage that we might be connected. A train service came to Schull in the 1850s but in 2026 you have to travel as far as Cork, which is 70 or 80 miles away, to get a train. There is something wrong somewhere. The Minister of State could tell me this is never going to happen. I could accept that, although I do not like the thought of accepting it. Certainly, bus connectivity from west Cork to the train station should be a priority. West Cork Connect has put forward very workable solutions in that regard, but unfortunately they are falling on deaf ears. The problem sometimes is that the main government bodies like the NTA or TII - there are so many of them, lord God, that you would want an instruction book on who is in charge of what - are afraid of something. I do not know what they are afraid of. It is as if they are in competition with the private operators instead of saying that if those operators can do it, let them put a plan together and get it across the line. It has been put to the relevant bodies but it has been stalled, looked at and not looked at. It is not going to happen, again because there is a real hunger out there not to connect Ireland."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jerry Buttimer Ah no."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Collins There is. I can show the Minister of State plenty of places that are not connected. This is one example. Surely to God there should not be a place in any part of Europe that is 80 to 90 miles of roadway from the nearest train. At one time, the railways travelled to Bantry on a separate route and to Schull on another route. If we could do it in 1850, there is something really wrong when we cannot even bring it to Bandon in 2026. The Taoiseach has a lot of lovely plans for Cork - I have no issue with that; it is brilliant, because Cork needs it - but he has no plans for connectivity for west Cork. We do not have passing bays on the roads. We do not have bypasses being funded. It is one problem on top of the other. The other thing I do not like is the NTA's attitude - I hate to use the word \"attitude\" - but it is not listening to solutions that could be made; small-time solutions. I look at areas like Drinagh and Caheragh that have an opportunity to be connected by a transport service because there is a bus travelling close by but it will not take in that little bit extra. It is as if to say, \"This is the way it is\". Some collar-tie pencil pusher is pushing this in Dublin but does not understand how west Cork works. Somebody may have to wait an extra five or ten minutes because a service is provided in a place like Drinagh or Caheragh. We should use the existing service not put in a new service at a huge extra cost. I do not understand some of the stuff that goes on. There is a bus coming from Castletownbere. Could it not slip into Kealkill and take people from there into Bantry? Would it put ten or 15 minutes on the whole journey? We asked that a bus could go from Castletownsend on to the loop, where it would take in a whole load of extra people but it was refused. Again, we asked for a loop from the Mizen, where I live, taking not one extra minute but it could take ten or 12 extra customers but we were not listened to. I am on the board. I am a volunteer. I never took a brown cent for being on that board. We want to deliver but we are not being given that opportunity. The NTA has its door shut to me, as a public representative, and to everybody else. It is as if it is saying, \"We make a decision. You listen to us and scratch your - I am sorry - you know what, after that.\" That is not good enough. It needs to work with the people. If small changes could be made, maybe they could save the State a fortune in money while, at the same time, deliver a service which would be welcome."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn Gabhaim m\u00edle bu\u00edochas leis na Social Democrats mar gheall ar an r\u00fan seo freisin. What does the Minister of State have against commuters? In every direction the Government takes there seems to be an attack on commuters. Hundreds of thousands of commuters are currently living in a commuter hell and being assaulted with never-ending congestion and prices in terms of their daily commute. If we use petrol or diesel, when we go to the petrol station and put 100 quid in the tank, \u20ac45 of that will go to the Government in tax. If we use the motorways, the Government has hiked up the tolls yet again, even for tolls that the Government owns that have been bought and paid for. If we use an electric car, we are actually being charged the highest electricity prices on the planet. Indeed, if we charge on the street, we are likely to get a charge that is actually more than the cost of petrol. The congestion is incredible. I came up from Navan yesterday on the M3. It took two hours to travel from Navan to Dublin yesterday morning. It regularly takes between three and four hours for a return journey from anywhere in the commuter belt into Dublin. Could the Minister of State just listen to this for a second? I know he has lots of notes in front of him but this is important and I want him to understand this."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jerry Buttimer Stop being patronising."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn Currently, the M50 is a car park for most of the day. It is at full capacity. One of the solutions to that is to take people from counties like Meath on a rail line into the county. There are 80,000 commuters in Meath. Some 60,000 of those use a car to get into Dublin every day. The Minister of State could have a material effect on all of the commuters in that region by building the Navan to Dublin rail line. The Navan to Dublin rail line was built in three years with picks and shovels in the 1860s. The current phase was started in 1994 and it will not be complete by 2036. That means if a person started work in 1994, they will be retired before it is built. The key thing is that it does not have a start date before 2030. It does not have a ring-fenced fund before 2030. I am imploring and begging the Minister of State at this stage to bring the billed start date for the Navan to Dublin rail line to before 2030 and do hundreds of thousands of people in the commuter belt a massive favour? His decision could have a material effect on the lives of hundreds of thousands of people, never mind climate change and all the costs associated with that. We cannot go on with the situation as currently outlined. Tomorrow, we have the outlining of the consultation stage of the rail line project but it is moving at glacial speed. I urge the Minister of State not to be a passenger on this bus but to be the driver of the bus. He should not just wait for the NTA to make decisions; he should make the decision."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Nicholas Gogarty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul Nicholas Gogarty I joked before that it was a cunning plan by the Minister to push fare prices up to keep demand down, with so many overcrowded buses and trains. However, it is no joke for the people who are suffering as a result of this collective incompetence. It makes no sense whatsoever to hike public transport costs in a time of climate crisis, when costs are rising everywhere, and when some people have no alternative to public transport. At the same time, the Minister is restricting car parking in new developments in my constituency - Dublin Mid-West, in places like Saggart, Seven Mills, Adamstown and Kilcarbery - ostensibly to encourage people to use a transport service that does not exist. There are people fainting on trains in my area and buses that are either full to the brim or cancelled without warning. The Minister is confusing car ownership with car usage. Of course, the people in social housing get even fewer spaces. Going by Simon Harris's comments, none of these people work, none of them have kids that need access to schools and childcare, and none of them have relatives that visit. We have had the media reports of people regretting moving to these areas because of the services not being in place. Between the Opposition and the Government parties, they have made a mess of my constituency. When I was mayor, along with a group of Independents, we tabled over 350 motions to the Clonburris strategic development zone, SDZ, to try to tie in housing with facilities, housing with train stations opening and housing with bus services tied in. It was voted down multiple times, and the behaviour of some councillors was woefully abusive. One would think that we would learn given all the capacity constraints we have now but no, in the recent rezonings, every single rezoning in Lucan, Clondalkin and Saggart has had no tie-in with facilities and infrastructure. I said it ten or 15 years ago, that these problems were going to happen. Now they are going to happen in another ten or 15 years because of bad planning."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Danny Healy-Rae I am glad to get the opportunity to say a few words about the rising costs. A lot of people who use public transport on a constant basis are very worried about the proposed increases and it is giving them great concern. It is at times like this that we certainly appreciate free transport for those people with disabilities and the elderly people who can travel free and use their passes to travel where they want. The Ministers and the Governments that put this system in place in the past deserve continuous credit for it and for having the foresight to understand what was needed into the future. I make no bones about it: the Taoiseach, Charlie Haughey, played a big role at the start of that to ensure that many people would have free transport. We appreciate the public transport that we have. As I said, many people are worried about the increased cost but a lot of people are worried also who do not have transport. Many parts of rural Kerry still do not have public transport. While a lot of areas do, there are a lot of rural places that are very isolated that need a better service. I refer to places like the Black Valley, Beaufort, places in east Kerry, Shrone and rural places like Aunaskirtaun. We need to have some kind of a public transport system in those places as well. The other matter when we are talking about transport is the lack of taxis. There is certainly a deficit of taxis in rural villages like Kilgarvan, Kenmare, Gneevgullia, Scartaglin, Barraduff and Rathmore. While there are a few constant operators who are very greatly appreciated, there are times that you cannot get a taxi in any one of these places. The other thing is that it is taking so long for people to get licensed and to get on the road. It is very cumbersome and that needs to be addressed as well because it is putting off a lot of people who might be interested in providing a service and trying to make a bit of a living for themselves. They see that it is taking too long and they are going in a different direction. In rural places and centres, during the week there are no taxis to be had to get in or out of these places. Not to have some form of public transport is a big disadvantage to a local pub, meetings or anything that is taking place. While the Minister of State sitting there, I wish to raise a matter I have raised several times. A lot of people come by rail to Killarney. A lot of people leave Killarney on buses. It is a sad reflection that the two stations - the railway station and the bus station - are not connected in Killarney. A person cannot cross a bridge to get from the train station to the bus station. They have to go down around past the Great Southern Hotel and up the Fair Hill before they can get into the bus station. That proposed bridge was on a programme but we have been told that it has been dropped because it is too expensive. The Lord God Almighty, given the number of tourists and people who come from the train station, and we appreciate them coming, to send them around the block with luggage, cases and all their stuff so they can get on a bus is unfair and it has to be addressed. The Government has money for a lot of things. I am not hitting out at the Minister of State but I am telling him that this will have to be addressed. It has to be put on a programme again because we have been told that it has been completely wiped off the list to be done. That is something that is very important. Again, I said-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Darren O'Rourke) Deputy-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Danny Healy-Rae How much time do I have?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Darren O'Rourke) You had five minutes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Danny Healy-Rae Sure, the other fella never came."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Darren O'Rourke) Is the Deputy going to use his time?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Danny Healy-Rae I will say a few more bits and I will go away then."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Darren O'Rourke) Okay. Go ahead."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Danny Healy-Rae We have a lot of public transport and we appreciate it. However, the people who do not have it are still suffering. We need to expand it. There are very big coaches and mid-sized coaches. We have the biggest one going through Kilgarvan. Two of them meet sometimes at the bad turn in the middle of the village. They are having fierce difficulty passing one another. Maybe, a size down from the largest one would help if that could be managed. I am sure the buses are not that full. We appreciate the consistency of the times. They are doing a great job. It would be easier for drivers if we could have a size down from the bigger coach. This would not be a very small one or anything like that but just a size down from the very large one. It would be common sense."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister of State at the Department of Transport (Deputy Jerry Buttimer) Gabhaim f\u00edorbhu\u00edochas le gach Ball a bh\u00ed p\u00e1irteach sa d\u00edosp\u00f3ireacht t\u00e1bhachtach agus iontach seo. Bh\u00ed m\u00e9 ag \u00e9isteacht le tuairim\u00ed na mBall. I thank Deputy Farrelly for bringing the motion before the House. To be fair, I have taken many of the Deputy's Topical Issue debates. He has been a long-time advocate of public transport since he came into the House. The Deputy's bona fides are not questioned at all. I wish to make that comment at the beginning because I know where the Deputy is coming from. To be fair, he has been very consistent. All of us in the House share a common position. We want to see public transport available and to be accessible, reliable and improved for all people who use public transport. As a Minister of State in the Department with responsibility for rural transport - and I will speak to that in a minute - it is important that the conversation and the debate that we have here recognise that there are challenges. I am not immune or removed from reality. I heard Deputy Gibney's remarks, who I have great respect for, but I live in the real world. I do not need her to tell me about the cost of living. She does not need to tell me about what is happening in my constituency. I am out and about every day. I am an ordinary person; I am a gn\u00e1thdhuine. I walk around my people. I live among my people, and I know what is happening."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney The Minister of State\u2019s policies do not seem to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jerry Buttimer Bh\u00ed m\u00e9 ag \u00e9isteacht leat. Do not tell me that I do not know because I do know. I understand full well. I use the public transport in Cork city and I can speak to that too. The fundamentals are that for a lot of people if we talk to them, it is that ghost bus that we speak about and that real-time information that is paused or not right or it is the bus that does not turn up. To be fair to the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, and the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, we are committed to that public transport investment and that sustainability of the public transport system. I pay tribute to the Dublin Commuter Coalition for its great work and I thank it. It is not about advocacy. It is about putting forward a policy and plan. I fully understand the criticisms. I get it. I have an issue in my own area where we need to see an enhanced connectivity piece in terms of the Ballinora Waterfall-Bishopstown area. Deputy Gogarty is right. All of us can reflect on us. Sometimes, we do not have that joined up thinking approach that we need to have. It mystifies me as to why we cannot do that, particularly when we have council development plans and the national development plan. We all know and recognise what is needed. Deputy Gibney referenced the direction of travel. We all want to move in that direction where we have a more reliable and people-centred system and a public transport system that is working. By and large, it is working. If we look at the volume of people using it and the number availing of it, it speaks to it. This is not a deflection point but I was on holidays this year in a particular part of America and the public transport system was congested. If I closed my eyes and listened to some of the comments here, I saw that happening in the city that I was in. Trains were full and the information was not right. That is an example. The Government is committed to funding. The budget shows that increase. As the Minister of State with responsibility for rural transport, I am ambitious to see more people using our public transport. I refer the Deputies to rural transport and to look at the success of it. More and more people are using it. Passenger numbers and routes are being increased. To that end, with other Ministers, I am meeting with the NTA to discuss 2027. I am meeting the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, and Minister of State, Deputy Canney, regarding a plan around Connecting Ireland for 2027. To Deputy Healy-Rae's point regarding the rural hackneys, I changed the rules to make it easier to have more rural hackneys in rural Ireland. There was not a word about that from the Deputy today. He mentioned the bridge in Killarney. That is a matter that is to be taken up with Kerry County Council and Irish Rail. I do not for one second think that everything is perfect. It is not. As the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, said in his contribution, service availability, frequency, reliable and the overall service plus the fares have the impact. What we want to see and what I have spoken to is that strong sustainable foundation that will deliver new and enhanced public transport services. The importance of BusConnects is critical. Deputy Rice is here in the Chamber. We have seen the success of the light rail in terms of commuter rail in Cork with Cork, Midleton, Glounthaune, Cobh and Mallow. New stations are being opened to deliver and connect more people. It is fact. Deputy Collins spoke about west Cork. I have not had one request from the West Cork Connect group for a meeting. I hope Deputy Rice will testify. The Deputy and I are fairly available in Cork. We are not living in an ivory tower. I am around and available. I was in west Cork over the summer, and I met Deputy Collins in Schull. To be fair, let us have a real conservation. We all regret and can all speak to the closure of the west Cork railway line back in the 1960s and as to why it happened. What would the cost be of a west Cork rail today? What is the cost of the Cork and Youghal line? I am all in favour of having the Cork and Youghal line developed. I heard Deputy Quaide's contribution. I would like to see the Cork to Youghal line or the Midleton to Youghal line being reopened but what is the cost? Who pays for that?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney The State."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jerry Buttimer I heard Deputy Quaide's point. I am sure he will agree with me that the Midleton-Cobh-Cork line he is on is phenomenal and a great success. We were told 20 years ago it would not happen, but it has. I heard his comments and will take them back to the relevant people. We want to strengthen transport connectivity not just for the urban commuters referenced by Deputies, but also for rural Ireland. Deputy Ward spoke about Donegal, which has one of the best rural transport services in the country, but we did not hear about that today. Rural Link providers are doing a phenomenal job. Next year, I want to see the continued expansion of Local Link throughout the country. The towns bus programme shows that public transport can be a success. There is evidence last year from the first ever smart demand responsive transport pilot in Achill, Killarney and Limerick city. Notwithstanding the challenges we face, working with the NTA we can ensure that we can deliver for people. I have heard the concerns and remarks. We all subscribe to the premise of affordable fees. The fare increase that has been proposed is about putting the financial stability of the public transport system in place and continued investment. I do not want to strike a note of discord because I am fundamentally on the same page as Deputy Farrelly, but nobody has spoken about how we will pay for it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney We do."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jerry Buttimer I am not going to have a row, but let us live in the real world. The Government has increased the pot of money for the Department. We do not have money up the wazoo to spend on everything. We have made choices. We are making the choice to improve the electrification of the fleet, connect more people, improve commuter rail, the Luas for Cork and MetroLink. Deputies have spoken about the cost of living. The Government has intervened repeatedly to support and assist people, as it should. I understand that affordability is a key priority, but we must achieve balance in the terms of the need for service improvement, expanding the network, enhancing reliability and providing the better public transport we all want. I pay tribute to the men and women who work in our public transport system because they do phenomenal work. There is more that unites us than divides us. I want more people to be connected and a better offering and better public transport system. I look forward to working with everybody, in particular the NTA, which is the body determining the decisions, to ensure that our public transport system delivers more people affordable, on-time and reliable services with certainty."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Daniel Ennis","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Daniel-Ennis.D.2026-05-25","memberCode":"Daniel-Ennis.D.2026-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Daniel Ennis The Minister of State is a gas man. He has said he is of the people and in touch with the people. The move the Government is making is out of touch and is putting more strain on those families he understands are under strain due to the cost of living. This move does not understand those people. His argument is that money does not grow on trees yet the Government has a massive tax surplus, running into hundreds of billions of euro. It is gas and the Minister of State is a gas man coming to the House to debate that. He fundamentally agreed with us but his actions and those of the Government do not show that. These fare increases put more pressure on people. He referenced some facts, and that is a fact. From January, adult fares will increase by an average of 15%. In my constituency, Dublin Central, short fares will increase by 33%, which is another fact. The Minister of State wants to talk about facts. That is a third more for the same journey on a bus and there is the same uncertainty about whether the bus will turn up on time. We hear about ghost buses across my constituency and the country. Someone taking two short journeys a day, five days a week, will have another fiver taken out of their pocket. The Minister of State knows it is not just about a fiver. People are under pressure. Over 48 weeks, the fare increase will result in an increase of \u20ac240. The Government and Minister of State, a normal person in touch with the people, might consider that a small amount, but for some people it is a significant amount and affects putting food on the table or choosing what bill to pay next. Living in the city does not mean people can simply walk everywhere. For older people, people with disabilities, parents with young children and someone coming home after a long shift, walking is simply not an option in some places. These are essential journeys and people should be able to afford them. The Government is asking people to pay more for journeys they are already not getting enough out of. In my constituency, when a couple of bus stops, including the North Strand bus stop, were removed, residents had to start a local campaign for months to fight for a bus stop to come back, in an area where high numbers of people with disabilities and people over 65 are registered. I know that because I live there. There was zero consultation from the NTA on this. Regarding Home Farm Road, the term \"shambles\" simply does not cover the plan that has been put in place up there. There are different road layouts, which send buses down small pedestrian roads where schools are located. We are talking about increasing fares. It is a merry-go-round with the NTA at the best of times. We know the demand for public transport has grown, with over 363 million journeys in 2025. It is a fact that that is a good thing but that should be the reason to invest further, improve services and build on that progress. Instead, the Government is putting up another barrier for people using public transport. The NTA acknowledges that a 10% increase will lead to a 3% fall in passenger numbers. The Minister of State has said he is a normal person who is in touch with the people. This move is not in touch with how people are living and the cost-of-living crisis."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy P\u00e1draig Rice I missed the full debate. I was chairing a health committee meeting but I did catch some of the debate and some of the Minister of State's response. He will appreciate my example, being from Cork. I was going to town on Saturday to catch the Kingfishr gig, and the sign at my local bus stop said it would be there in three minutes. I ran to the bus stop and waited, where the sign said it would be there in five minutes but then the bus just disappeared. The sign told me the next bus would be in 25 minutes, but that then got delayed. I would have walked to town in the time that I would have been waiting at that bus stop. That is not a privilege other people have, as Deputy Ennis just said. There are real issues. The Minister of State will be aware of the frustration because we have the same constituents. The real issue in Cork is that the bus fares have already increased by 26% this year. That is going to be felt further across the county and into other services. A constituent of mine and the Minister of State emailed me recently me to say that Cork city bus users have felt the pinch since June when fare increases went up, and that is now set to spread to rail services. This is all happening against the backdrop of further delays to the Cork Luas project and the lack of progress on BusConnects. This decision is tone deaf. We cannot keep asking people to pay more while receiving less. These fare increases are also being implemented during one of the worst cost-of-living crises this country has seen, but it is also completely disconnected from our climate goals. Almost every day a constituent contacts me regarding public transport. I sit here in the D\u00e1il and listen to people who are struggling to pay their rent and bills and to put food on the table. Many of those who are struggling will have waited today in the rain at bus or train stops, for buses to turn up that are overcrowded, as we saw last week on \"Prime Time\". Constituents will often delay raising issues regarding buses being cancelled or delayed. It was reported recently that 36% of Cork city buses operated off schedule during the first half of the year, showing up late or leaving earlier than timetabled. This is one third of services, and now people are being asked to pay more. Someone from Cork said to me recently that it is just another price hike. Everything else is a price hike so why not this too? People are incredibly frustrated about the rising cost of public transport. but they are also worried about the climate. The Minister of State asked how we are going to pay for this. We seem to have plenty of money to pay for climate-related fines. We need to address this to have a real transition away from fossil fuels. The fare increases are a stark contrast to our climate targets. We need to get people using public transport. People feel they cannot use it because it is unreliable and costs are increasing. Therefore, it is crucially important that these hikes are reversed and that we meet our climate targets by providing people with access to affordable quality public transport."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Aidan Farrelly I thank the Minister of State for his response and colleagues across the House for their contributions on the debate on public transport fare increases. If we are ever wondering about the cost of Fine Gael and Fianna F\u00e1il doing business with the Regional Independents, it is on issues like this that it manifests. Fine Gael, Fianna F\u00e1il and the Green Party were record-breakers in terms of public transport costs and public transport users. As soon as we said goodbye to the Green Party in that Government and welcomed the regional Independents, who have championed tar, tar and tar - that populist narrative of really local issues - the Government has collectively taken its foot off the gas when it comes to the real priority, which should be moving people, not moving cars. Ultimately, we should not be debating whether public transport costs are going up. We should actually be congratulating the Government on driving those prices down. If we took our climate obligations seriously at all, we would never look at raising public transport prices. Actually, we would ideologically move to one day having free public transport for everybody,-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney Hear, hear."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Aidan Farrelly -----the maximum use of public transport and not giving out and saying that we cannot pay for everything, which is what our Taoiseach said in response to these announcements. We have heard an awful lot this morning about overcrowding on our public transport network, whether that is on rail or on buses. A legitimate and tangible thing to do from a Government perspective when there are capacity issues is to increase capacity. The illegitimate thing to do when there are capacity issues is to raise the prices to drive people away from using public transport. That is really unacceptable at a time when we should be trying to encourage people towards public transport. We now have a T\u00e1naiste and Minister for Finance who will give out to you if you do not go to work and a Government that is preparing itself to punish you financially for going to work. On 1 January, you will pay more for your bus, your toll, your train and, whichever which way, commuting to work. Public transport increases will come to about 1.3% of the Department's budget in 2027. The National Transport Authority needed \u20ac70 million to sufficiently keep its budget aligned. The Government has put that cost on the end user, even though the Minister of State's Department had an underspend of ring-fenced carbon tax budgets of over \u20ac100 million in 2025. The Minister of State has told me that the Government cannot spend everything and asked where it would come up with the money. That is where the money is. It is sitting there and is ready to be used by just changing the subhead from a carbon tax to an NTA budget supplement. That would negate the need for putting this on families. This Government has taken its eyes off the prize. This is a political choice. This is the Taoiseach, the Minister of State and the wider Government's choice to raise public transport fares. Time and again, it has been the wrong choice. I ask that the Government change its mind today. Reverse this decision and do away with public transport fare increases."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle The division is deferred until the weekly division time this evening."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Reversing Planned Increases to Public Transport Fares: Motion [Private Members]"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-11\/debate\/dbsect_10","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Visit of Australian Delegation","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_10","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle I hope Members will join me in offering a warm c\u00e9ad m\u00edle f\u00e1ilte to Senator Deborah O'Neill, who is chairperson of the Australian-Irish parliamentary friendship group. She joins us in the Distinguished Visitors Gallery, accompanied by the Australian ambassador to Ireland, our good friend, Her Excellency Chantelle Taylor. They are here with Deputy James O'Connor, who is the convener of the Australian-Irish friendship group."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Visit of Australian Delegation"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-11\/debate\/dbsect_11","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna \u00f3 Cheannair\u00ed - Leaders' Questions","counts":{"speechCount":73,"speakerCount":10},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_11","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Deputies","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"M\u00e1ire Devine","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/M\u00e1ire-Devine.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"M\u00e1ire-Devine.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ken O'Flynn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ken-O'Flynn.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ken-O'Flynn.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Lou McDonald Dismantling the triple lock carries the most profound implications for this country for generations to come. The Government's plan to deploy Irish troops without a United Nations mandate is destructive and dangerous. The United Nations mandate is the mechanism that has made Irish peacekeeping so effective over the years. It is the UN mandate that legally defines Irish deployments as bona fide peacekeeping efforts. It is that which ensures conformity with international law. The United Nations mandate frames our peacekeeping work as a military neutral. The UN mandate has protected Irish troops, often in the face of sustained hostility and danger, as they carried out their duties wearing the blue helmet and under the Irish flag. Now, the Government wants to throw all of that away and undo generations of honourable work. The Government has concocted all sorts of false rationales for its actions, but none of it bears up to scrutiny and the Minister for foreign affairs has now revealed the real motives for its actions: the Government wants to get rid of the triple lock to allow the deployment of Irish soldiers on an EU-led mission to Lebanon. This would not be a peacekeeping mission, but a partisan intervention in one of the most fraught and dangerous parts of our world. The Government wants to change Ireland's role from peacekeeper in Lebanon, where our brave soldiers held the line against illegal Israeli incursion, where they acted as a buffer between parties to the conflict and where they protected civilian life, to instead deploy them as part of an EU mission to act in the interests of Israel in disarming Hezbollah, placing our soldiers as partisans and in the way of danger to advance Israeli interests. This will be a mission led by the very EU governments that actively arm and support Israel's genocide in Palestine. The Government's plan is to scrap the triple lock and fall into line with Europe's NATO members. That is dangerous and makes a mockery of our neutrality. This is not what the Irish people want or support, in my strong opinion. The Irish people were given not just an assurance, but a solemn guarantee by the parties in government that the triple lock and the United Nations mandate would underwrite our military neutrality, our independent foreign policy and our absolute conformity with international law, and that, crucially, they would avoid any slippery slope for Ireland into European defence arrangements and military adventures. That guarantee was the demand of the Irish people in return for passing the Nice and Lisbon referendums. It was the price demanded by the Irish people for further European integration then and now. The triple lock was a solemn commitment to the Irish people and now the Government wants to ditch it without the democratic permission of the Irish people. The Government wants to deploy Irish soldiers on a partisan, Israel-friendly mission along with soldiers from the very countries arming Israeli genocide, and to do so without the democratic consent or permission of the Irish people. That is despicable. It the Government is set on this destructive course of action, then the very minimum it must do is seek the permission and democratic consent of the Irish people first and put this question to a referendum."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Deputies","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputies Hear, hear."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I dt\u00fas b\u00e1ire, n\u00ed aonta\u00edm in aon chor leis an Teachta. Is dochreidte an m\u00e9id at\u00e1 r\u00e1ite aici ar maidin. N\u00edl an Teachta ag insint na f\u00edrinne in aon chor. Is uaf\u00e1sach go nd\u00fairt s\u00ed anseo inniu go bhfuil muidne ag iarraidh \u00d3glaigh na h\u00c9ireann a chur ar an taobh c\u00e9anna le hIosrael. T\u00e1 s\u00e9 sin dochreidte. Deputy McDonald is getting more desperate by the day, and she is going low. To endeavour to create the impression and narrative that somehow Irish military personnel would be deployed in favour of Israel in Lebanon is a despicable, outrageous distortion of truth and of the narrative. Sinn F\u00e9in seems to think it can get away with falsehoods week after week in relation to a litany of issues. Ireland has a very proud record of peacekeeping. My party, Fianna F\u00e1il, when in government in the 1960s, began the very first peacekeeping mission. We are very proud of it. Our major role internationally has been defined by the peacekeeping heroics of many generations of Irish soldiers. We want to continue that mission of peacekeeping. The Deputy talked about a UN mandate. We know the UN Security Council is dysfunctional. Instead of a UN mandate, she is saying it has to have a Russian mandate."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"M\u00e1ire Devine","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/M\u00e1ire-Devine.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"M\u00e1ire-Devine.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy M\u00e1ire Devine Ah, here."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach Russia is on the Security Council."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(Interruptions)."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I did not interrupt Deputy McDonald."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle I will deal with this. Deputies should afford the same courtesy to each Member of the House. No interruptions, please."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach If we insist on a Security Council mandate in today's world, we are saying we are insisting on a Russian mandate. We know that in Africa, in the Sahel and elsewhere, Russia has deployed the Wagner Group and other groups to manipulate governments, take down governments in Niger and other places and extract the very valuable minerals and resources from those countries. Is that who we want to endorse whether or not we go on a peacekeeping mission? The great republican party opposite believes the United Kingdom should have a veto on whether we participate. We have very good relations with the United Kingdom but I think independent foreign policy should mean we give ourselves greater flexibility in terms of being able to be involved in peacekeeping, monitoring and so on. In relation to Lebanon, I find it extraordinary that Deputy McDonald would have the brass neck to come in here and say that, somehow, we now want to get involved in supporting Israel. Let us reflect on what has happened. We have been in Lebanon since the 1970s. Who is taking us out of Lebanon? It is the United States and Israel, which did not want the continuation of UNIFIL. We have played a very noble role in Lebanon; yes, as the Deputy said, as a buffer between Israel and Hezbollah. By the way, Hezbollah has murdered some of our soldiers in the past. It has been responsible for the killing of Irish soldiers. Do not lose sight of that either. We have been peacekeepers there and we wanted to continue with UNIFIL because the danger with UNIFIL ending is that the eyes and ears of the world will be taken out of southern Lebanon in particular. Why is UNIFIL being stopped? Why are Irish troops coming home in December and the next group that goes will basically be winding up the operation in Lebanon? It is because the Security Council could not and would not sanction the continuation of UNIFIL because of the position of the United State and Israel. That is the fundamental flaw in the Deputy's presentation."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Lou McDonald The Taoiseach is very well aware that peacekeeping missions are mandated by the UN, and the UN alone. A European force does not enjoy, nor should it enjoy, that discretion. It is utterly despicable and utterly outrageous that any Irish Government would seek to place Irish soldiers in direct harm's way in a partisan manner in the middle of a complex, protracted and dangerous civil war, explicitly with the mandate to disarm one party to that conflict - in this case, Hezbollah. Yes, Hezbollah has taken Irish soldiers' lives and so, too, has the Israel Defense Forces. Ireland should not be taking Israel's part, particularly at a time when it is executing a genocide of the Palestinian people, and doing the bidding of Israel in Lebanon. It is as simple as that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Thank you, Deputy, your time is up."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Lou McDonald The Taoiseach is convinced by his argument and he has come in and rehearsed it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle We are sticking to our time. The Taoiseach, please."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Lou McDonald He should put the question to the people in a referendum."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach We will not be placing Irish troops in harm's way in Lebanon, either in disarming Hezbollah or whatever. That is a falsehood. We will not be doing that. No government has made any decision. No proposal has come to the Government and we have made no decision in relation to it. Either way, there will not be a proposal coming forward to the Government that we would have any partisan role other than that we would support the Lebanese Government in terms of training and so on because the Lebanese Government-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Lou McDonald That is a contradiction in terms."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach -----needs to be strengthened and it needs support. No one has argued against that. I do not know whether Sinn F\u00e9in is now against that as well."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Lou McDonald Are you not listening to your own Minister for foreign affairs?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach We support Lebanese sovereignty and territorial integrity. Israel is violating the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Lebanon and has undermined its capacity to grow and develop. We will not be in any way involved in the false narrative Deputy McDonald has articulated this morning."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Lou McDonald It is not a false narrative."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle The next speaker is Deputy Hearne. He is on his feet."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Lou McDonald The Taoiseach stopped short as his waffle-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Respect, Deputy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Lou McDonald -----only has certain parameters."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Rory Hearne A new report from Deloitte makes for grim reading. It says the Government has no hope of delivering 300,000 homes by 2030. It is going to miss its target by a country mile, falling nearly 140,000 homes short. Instead of delivering homes, the Government prefers spin and empty promises. In a few minutes, the Taoiseach will stand up and say we have turned a corner again and then he will do what he always does, which is look for someone else to blame. Will it be the planning system, the courts, the Opposition or some vulnerable group he and the T\u00e1naiste pick on? I have news for the Taoiseach: the failure is all his and it is devastating the lives of tens of thousands of people across this country. In the past week alone, I have been contacted by a man in his 60s in my constituency who is living in his car. He is afraid to go into emergency accommodation because, if he does, he fears he will lose his job. Can the Taoiseach imagine being forced to sleep in your car every night as temperatures plummet and having to try to put on a brave face before going to work in the morning? A 29-year-old woman facing eviction from her apartment also contacted me. She has a good job but every day, she said, she wakes up feeling a paralysing sense of dread because she cannot afford the extortionate rents now being charged for new tenancies. She has no hope of being able to buy a home of her own. Another young man in my constituency has spoken of the nightmare of trying to find new rental accommodation. Even finding a room in shared accommodation is almost impossible. The only ones he has seen advertised are now costing \u20ac1,400 per month, which is more than half his monthly salary. This is the reality of the Government's disastrous housing policies: a multigenerational catastrophe that is destroying lives all over the country. In 2020, the median price of a home was \u20ac255,000. Today, it is nearly \u20ac400,000. Six years of Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael in government have added \u20ac140,000 to the price of a home. That is their big achievement. Is it any wonder that 70% of young people are considering leaving this country because they cannot afford the Ireland that Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael have created? No matter how hard they work, it is never enough. They cannot afford to move out of home, put down roots in a community or even start a family because the cost of housing and everything else in this country is totally unaffordable. The Government is following the same failed policies and refusing to treat the housing catastrophe as an emergency. It has refused to ban no-fault evictions, reverse its disastrous rental changes, set up a State construction company and stop investor funds buying up property. Does the Taoiseach accept the Government's target will not be met?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I fundamentally disagree with the Deputy's narrative. Ireland ranks as the fastest in Europe in terms of house construction by a considerable distance. At 7.2 units per 1,000 of population, we are more than double the Europe average of three units and triple the United Kingdom's figure of 2.4. Since 2020, we will by the end of this year have delivered 70,000 social houses alone, close to that and maybe more. Going back to between 2015 and 2020, the number was nearly half that if not even less. That is progress. The Deputy will not acknowledge it because he is in opposition and wants to exploit every crisis as best he can. Importantly, the progress is quite significant, with 36,000 new houses last year. In 2020, we were at 20,000 per annum. We will be increasing that again by the end of 2026. We have also initiated quite a significant number of reforms, which the Deputy objected to and opposed in every single way. Commencements are up 156% in 2026 versus 2025. A total of 35,400 mortgages were drawn down in the first three quarters of 2026. I went through the social houses built and so on. More importantly, the reforms and the work of the housing activation office have made very significant inroads, with the \u20ac1 billion that was allocated to the office, constructing railways and new stations aligning with the provision of thousands and thousands more homes. In terms of the Deloitte report, it relies on historical planning permission lapse rates and does not adequately capture the impact of current Government interventions, increased construction capacity or the measures being implemented to accelerate delivery. It applies historical permission lapse rates of 25% to 30% from 2017 to 2020 to current and future delivery. That assumes that past patterns will continue unchanged despite significant changes in the policy, planning and investment environment, changes that, by the way, the Social Democrats substantially or totally objected to, be they the planning reforms, zoning or so on that we have engaged in. I looked at the disposal of lands at Mooretown in Swords. About 249 affordable and 111 social houses are ready to go, with the tender agreed and everything with the local authority. A Labour Party-led motion, supported by the Deputy's party, was a refusal to give that land over for those houses. That is the hypocrisy they go on with all the time. How can the Deputy get up here and talk about housing delivery but just casually say that, because of who owns a cr\u00e8che, people will not get access to those affordable or social houses for some time yet? The Deputies are so intent on ideology as opposed to substantial and pragmatic progress."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Rory Hearne It is incredible to see the Taoiseach getting worked up over this. It is a pity he is not worked up about the 5,830 children who are in emergency accommodation right now."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Deputies","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputies Hear, hear."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Rory Hearne It is a pity we do not see him getting worked up about the highest number of evictions in this country since the Famine. Not once in his speech did the Taoiseach acknowledge the devastating human impact of this housing crisis on the three cases I raised in my constituency alone, including an elderly person living in their car and a 29-year old being evicted as a result of the measures that the Government brought in. The Taoiseach talks about the Government's success and affordable housing delivery. It is absolutely pathetic. Just under 600 affordable purchase homes were delivered in the first half of this year. There are half a million adults living in their parental homes. There is a lack of empathy and the Taoiseach is cold in his response. There is a human catastrophe happening right now. These policies of handing public land-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Thank you Deputy. The Taoiseach to respond."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Rory Hearne -----over to private developers is what got us into this crisis in the first place, yet the Government continues with those."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach It is very disingenuous and dishonest of the Deputy to say I am cold or not prioritising housing. He knows damn well that I am-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney The Taoiseach stands over so many children being homeless and evicted."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach -----and he knows that, since the Government came in two years ago, we have prioritised housing and I continue to prioritise housing. His ideology is what is getting in the way of faster-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Rory Hearne What of the Taoiseach's ideology?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach -----delivery in terms of the progression of houses. Deputy Hearne mentioned individual cases. He did not explain to me why an individual would not go into emergency accommodation."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Rory Hearne See? The Taoiseach has no understanding. How can someone go into emergency accommodation-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach No, sorry. Deputy Hearne did not. He simply said that the person would lose a job if the person went into emergency accommodation. Why? How?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney That is the reality."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Rory Hearne Yes. Absolutely. The Taoiseach is so disconnected-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach No. The Deputy is-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Deputies, the Taoiseach is responding and you were not interrupted. That is in compliance with Standing Orders. Do the same."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach What real empathy means is that when a proposal is on the table for 360 affordable and social houses, people would allow it through for the young people who want to get those affordable houses substantially below the market price. The Social Democrats go on about costs and everything, yet they oppose it. The Deputy's party opposed the provision of those houses because of the ownership of a cr\u00e8che."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney They might be affordable for the Taoiseach-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach Deputy Hearne talks about prices. Those first-time buyers get prices at \u20ac335,000 and \u20ac375,000-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle The Taoiseach's time is up. I call Deputy Healy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach -----for a three-bedroom house. That is below the market value, yet Deputy Hearne talks about empathy? He talks about caring. He does not care. He is just interested in ideology and exploiting a crisis."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Deputies","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputies Hear, hear."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle The Taoiseach's time is up. Deputy Healy, on your feet please."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Seamus Healy Public safety requires a modern, properly staffed, properly funded, properly resourced and fit-for-purpose structured Garda organisation, but despite the best efforts of garda\u00ed on the ground - garda\u00ed who are stretched to the limit - the Garda organisation is not delivering for the public. The new Garda divisions introduced by the former Commissioner are an unmitigated disaster. The Tipperary-Clare division is particularly unwieldy and dysfunctional, being 170 km from the west coast of Clare to Carrick-on-Suir, a journey of two and a half hours. Garda numbers are down in the area, retirements are up, and the community policing service has been decimated, as has the roads policing unit. In 2010, Ireland had 1,182 community garda\u00ed. In 2026, we have 591. In 2010, Tipperary had 108 community garda\u00ed but now the whole area of Clare and Tipperary has a grand total of 18. The Clonmel Garda district covers the town of Clonmel, with a population of about 20,000 and another 20,000 in the hinterland, including Fethard, Kilsheelan, Clerihan and Lisronagh. Increasingly, it covers areas with unmanned stations, like Kilsheelan, and stations that have been downgraded, like Carrick-on-Suir. Clonmel Garda station is particularly badly affected. In 2024, we had 64 garda\u00ed. In October of this year, after the attested garda\u00ed, we now have 55, which is nine fewer than in 2024. This level of Garda numbers does not allow for Garda visibility. To see garda\u00ed on the beat is now a rarity. Visibility and garda\u00ed on the beat are vital for public safety. Garda\u00ed themselves are being put at risk by the fact that they are going out to incidents on their own. We have had instances where garda\u00ed on their own have been assaulted and had to be helped by members of the public. Our town centres are being abandoned to antisocial behaviour, drug use and drug dealing. The few community garda\u00ed that we have do tremendous work but are overwhelmed and stretched to the limit. Will the Government immediately and as a matter of urgency replace the nine garda\u00ed positions that have been lost since 2024 and increase the number of community garda\u00ed? Please do not tell me that we are getting a new Garda station,-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister for Justice, Home Affairs and Migration (Deputy Jim O'Callaghan) The area is. The sod has been turned-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Seamus Healy -----which we are and it is very welcome, but a Garda station is bricks and mortar. What we need is feet on the beat, and we need them now."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I thank Deputy Healy for raising what is a very important issue. First of all, I will take the opportunity to pay tribute to An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, which serves our country with great commitment and diligence-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Seamus Healy Absolutely."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach -----in looking after our people and our community and protecting them in the face of ever-growing challenges from technological threats across to the community Garda presence on our streets. We should always aspire to maintain the embeddedness that our garda\u00ed have in our community, that sense of a community-based approach, which has stood us in good stead compared to many other political systems and polities across the world. In the context of the European Union Presidency, I want to pay particular tribute to An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na for the work it has been doing. We have been very focused on increasing the number of garda\u00ed in the country. As the Deputy will know, there has been a constant and consistent recruitment and attestation of garda\u00ed on a regular basis through Templemore. It is maxed out and at full capacity. The good news is that more people are applying than we can accommodate. We now have 14,825 sworn garda\u00ed, which is the largest number in the history of the State, and 200 more will come out of Templemore in December. That will bring us to about 15,000. We have provided more funding in the Estimates for next year for further recruitment and training at Templemore. We acknowledge that the population has grown and we need to increase the number of garda\u00ed. We acknowledge what the Deputy is saying about the need for more garda\u00ed across the country. The Minister provides the resources, and the Commissioner has been deploying garda\u00ed in accordance with his operational framework. He has identified areas. Obviously, the Garda will be in a position, as we continue to recruit, to add more garda\u00ed to Tipperary and to places across the country. I love the way the Deputy says \"do not tell me\" the good news in advance so that he gets it out before I can say there is a new station at Clonmel."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Seamus Healy That is what I was told the last time I raised this issue."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach Skilfully done, Deputy, but we should acknowledge it at the same time. It does represent investment in Clonmel, which needs it, and there is no issue there. We will refer to the Commissioner the Deputy's emphasis and prioritisation of community garda\u00ed and the desire for more numbers on that front, and we will relay that back. Obviously, it is an operational decision for the Commissioner. He is leading well and I believe that the continued regular recruitment into Templemore and the continued regular attestations will incrementally increase the garda\u00ed and we will increase deployment across the country."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Seamus Healy With respect, the Taoiseach has not addressed any of the issues I have raised. The fact of the matter is that cities are being prioritised over rural areas, at the expense of rural areas. Garda management appears to be oblivious to the needs of the public in areas like south Tipperary. We only have to look at the recent allocation of new garda\u00ed in October of this year. Of the 207 attested garda\u00ed, 160 or almost 80% went to Dublin and the east, 25 went to Waterford city and the rest of the country shared 22 garda\u00ed. I repeat that in Clonmel we have nine fewer garda\u00ed than we had in 2024. That is not good enough. We are entitled in south Tipperary to a fair share of the Garda complement. I ask the Taoiseach to intervene with the Minister. We were promised a meeting with the Minister before the summer recess."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle The Deputy's time is up. The Taoiseach to respond."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Seamus Healy That did not happen. We have asked the Minister to meet us again, all three TDs."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Deputy Healy, you are not different. Your time is up. The Taoiseach will respond."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Seamus Healy I ask the Taoiseach to intervene with the Minister to get that meeting, please."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach The Minister has no difficulty meeting with the Oireachtas representatives from south Tipperary."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Seamus Healy When?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I do not have his diary here with me. He will engage with the Deputy. The Commissioner and the management of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na are not oblivious to rural Ireland."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Seamus Healy They would appear so."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach They are not oblivious to the needs of rural Ireland. There was an argument, if we are honest. The Deputy mentioned the 28 that have gone to Waterford. I think the way he has done it is having an impact in cities. I acknowledge that. We will get there in terms of Clonmel and south Tipperary."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Seamus Healy We have had a reduction, not an increase."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Deputy, I will get you the Standing Orders for Leaders' Questions. Stop interrupting."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach There has been very steady progress in the last 12 months. We know that because of Covid-19, Templemore closed. That was a significant pause in recruitment, and that was a problem. Now we are really catching up very quickly. Templemore is our training centre for An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. We have made a decision to maintain that. We will have substantial numbers coming out next year as well."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ken O'Flynn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ken-O'Flynn.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ken-O'Flynn.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ken O'Flynn I want to raise the treatment of Mr. Ciar\u00e1n Kenneally, a former Tusla employee who recently featured in The Irish Times . I have raised this matter in the House on several occasions. To refresh the Taoiseach's memory, in 2019 Mr. Kenneally made a protected disclosure about procurement and financial governance in Tusla. An independent investigation by RSM Ireland found the concerns were not upheld but, through a freedom of information request through my office, I obtained the financial audit from the same period, where 18 different instances of wrongdoing were recorded and 12 recommendations were made. It has been confirmed to me in writing that RSM Ireland has never seen that audit. Let us reflect on that. The independent investigator never saw the findings that were directly relevant to that particular investigation. Would it have changed the outcome? Who is to say? I think it may have. Between 2018 and 2019, over \u20ac50,000 was recorded as \"pocket money\" in a ledger of the Tusla facility in Cork. I believe it deserves scrutiny when somebody records it as \"pocket money\". However, the man who raised concerns about this faced sustained campaigns directed at him personally and through his work life. In January of this year, a data protection commissioner found that Tusla unlawfully processed Mr. Kenneally's personal information and data by carrying out an unauthorised background check on him. When challenged about this, Tusla justified it on its own headed paper and claimed that it had concerns regarding his capability and capacity to interact with vulnerable children. Let us reflect on that. It is an extremely dangerous and serious accusation to make about anybody. Never once has any evidence been produced, nor has a document of accusation been produced. That is what they used as an excuse to carry out an unauthorised check. There has never been an apology or explanation and nobody has been held accountable. In 2025, he made a second protected disclosure, raising his concerns at the highest level of Tusla management. Tusla has acknowledged his complaint but has not investigated it. Mr. Kenneally has spent years seeking answers under his protected disclosure but instead, he has been penalised. I am asking the Taoiseach to intervene with the Tusla commission to look for a full independent review of the case going back to January 2019. It must cover both disclosures, the audit finding withheld from RSM Ireland, and the DPC findings on allegations against him. Mr. Kenneally has suffered tremendously and this is still going on. Yesterday we saw another headline regarding Tusla. I not asking the Taoiseach to adjudicate, but to intervene."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I thank the Deputy for raising the issue. I do not have the specifics of this case or indeed of the protected disclosure. As the Deputy knows, there are established procedures governing protected disclosures and set procedures for dealing with them. I will ask Tusla for its perspective on this case and the background to it. It goes back, I think, as far as 2018 and 2019. I cannot really comment on the assertions or points the Deputy has made because I do not have the requisite detailed background. One of the challenges in more recent times is that, notwithstanding the fact that we have protected disclosures frameworks and procedures, invariably it seems that those who make protected disclosures do not seem to get either closure or adequate responses. This goes back since we brought in the Act of 2014 and did a major amendment in 2022. We are going to have a further statutory review of the Act in 2027 and public consultation will be carried out in advance of this. Fundamentally, it seems to me that right across the board, we are witnessing quite a number of protected disclosures being made and then those who have made them not at all being satisfied with how they have been progressed or with the responses. I am open to an overall review of it. My own view is that when disclosures are made, the existing structures should have the capacity and capability to deal with them comprehensively; to answer the questions that have been asked; if things were done wrongly, to apologise for that; and to make good. I will talk to Tusla in respect of this case and revert back at that stage."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ken O'Flynn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ken-O'Flynn.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ken-O'Flynn.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ken O'Flynn I will write formally to the Taoiseach setting out the entire thing, and I will cc his Minister on it. The one thing we can agree on is that protected disclosures are perhaps not working the way they should. It has been highlighted by the EU Commission, which has written to the Government on three separate occasions regarding protected disclosures in this country. We can assert one thing from all this conversation we have had about Tusla over the last number of months: Tusla cannot be allowed mark its own homework at this stage. I will write formally to the Taoiseach. I am asking for a full investigation into this to cover from 2019 all the way up to 2025. The Taoiseach knows as well as I do that when somebody's name is taken and serious allegations are made, with absolutely no evidence at all, it destroys somebody's life. It has not only destroyed his life; it has destroyed his personal relationships with people and he has suffered financially. On the bullying that went on in that organisation against that particular whistleblower, I can draw the parallels across many whistleblowers. It needs to be addressed."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I thank the Deputy for raising the issue. He has been briefed and has been involved in this and has pursued the issues through freedom of information and questions. I will engage with Tusla in respect of it and ascertain its perspective. We are reviewing the Act. We did amend the Act, giving effect to Directive (EU) 2019\/1937, the whistleblowing directive. We are working on that. I will come back to the Deputy. The problem we face across the board is the question of who does the investigations. There are calls for public inquiries regularly now on a whole range of issues. We have to develop a system within the State so that existing organisations can adequately give closure and respond to people in situations like this."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna \u00f3 Cheannair\u00ed - Leaders' Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-11\/debate\/dbsect_12","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna \u00f3 na Comhalta\u00ed Eile - Other Members\u2019 Questions","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_12","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed My question today is about the urgent need for legislation to address the role that exposure to extreme pornographic material is playing in normalising sexual violence and harmful sexual behaviour among young people. There is growing recognition across the world that violence and extreme pornography is both highly accessible and increasingly influential. It is shaping attitudes about sex, relationships and consent, particularly among young people. Research from the Sexual Exploitation Research and Policy, SERP, Institute in Ireland has identified our relationship between the consumption of extreme and violent pornography and acts of violence against women and girls. This should concern everybody in this Oireachtas. If one looks at the front pages of many of the world's most popular pornography websites, one will see content that normalises degradation, humiliation, coercion and violence against women. The increasing availability of pornography depicting forceful strangulation and suffocation is really concerning. These are difficult subjects to talk about but we have to face up to them. Health professionals have repeatedly warned about the serious physical and psychological risks associated with these practices yet they are being presented and, indeed, spun online as a routine and even desirable part of a sexual relationship. Women's Aid has described mainstream pornography as providing a blueprint for the sexual, verbal and physical abuse of women by male intimate partners. Repeated exposure to violent pornography normalises the idea that aggression towards women is an acceptable part of sex. Young people, in particular, are really vulnerable to these messages. The evidence from the SERP Institute is clear. Many young people are regularly consuming pornography before their first sexual experience with another person. For some, pornography then becomes the primary source of information about sex and relationships, shaping expectations long before they have developed the emotional maturity to critically assess what they are seeing online. Family psychotherapists, teachers and front-line organisations are now dealing with the consequences. They report that young people are presenting with skewed views of consent and intimacy. In what world is it normal or acceptable for teenagers to think that strangling, degrading or physically harming a partner is a normal part of a relationship? It cannot be accepted that technology companies and pornography platforms are permitted to expose children and young people to increasingly extreme content with little meaningful regulation. Will the Government commit to bringing forward measures to introduce robust age verification for pornographic websites? Will the Government introduce specific offences relating to the production, distribution and promotion of violent pornography that normalises sexual violence and reinforces harmful misogynistic attitudes towards women?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I thank the Deputy very much for raising this very important issue. In short, the Government is responding in an affirmative way to the points he has raised. First of all, we have a zero-tolerance approach to domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. It is a scourge on our society. The level of violence against women is very serious. We want to ensure that all victims and survivors can access the support, protection and justice they require. In July, the Minister, Deputy Jim O'Callaghan, secured Government approval to commence drafting additional heads of Bill for inclusion in the general scheme of the criminal law (sexual offences, domestic violence and international instruments) Bill. As the Deputy has asked for, this Bill will create offences relating to the possession, production and distribution of violent or extreme pornography, addressing a significant gap in Irish law. As the Deputy correctly said, such material is having a harmful impact, particularly on young people and in terms of the normal sexual development of young people. It is contributing to misogynistic attitudes but also to violence. These offences will take an objective approach. They will cover material that would appear, to a reasonable person, to depict extreme violence, abuse, necrophilia or bestiality. This will include where technology has been used to alter or generate the material. The Bill is on the priority for drafting list in the autumn legislative programme. The Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, is also seeking to build consensus throughout the European Union on a co-ordinated criminal justice response to the harmful impact of extreme or violent pornography. The Minister hosted a productive discussion on tackling violent and extreme pornography among justice and home affairs ministers at the informal ministerial meeting held in Dublin in July as part of Ireland's Presidency of the Council of the European Union. Officials continue to engage with the European Commission on potential further co-operation in this area. Of course, the Government's response also includes regulatory and public education measures. That builds on the good progress in embedding awareness of the very harmful effects of pornography, digital safety and consent into curricular reform and on the development of a broader pornography literacy strategy. The Department of justice is working with Cuan to develop a more comprehensive, targeted and effective multi-agency cross-sectoral response. As the Deputy knows, the establishment of Cuan was a milestone development in terms of Government's response to gender-based violence. Cuan provides the leadership, oversight and accountability for delivery in terms of the broad programme, the third national zero-tolerance strategy and the detailed implementation plan's progress report."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed I welcome the additional heads of Bill as outlined by the Minister. The Minister knows he has my full support in supporting and getting this legislation through and on the Statute Book. As the Taoiseach said, it is hugely important that young people have access to accurate information, that there are good role models for them and that there is evidence-based education on consent, respect and healthy relationships. I feel, at times, we have taken our eye off the ball on these pornography sites for too long and let them effectively capitalise on what is pretty lax regulation across the European Union on addictive commercial practices. We cannot let pornography become the default sex educator for a generation of young people in this country and across Europe. It is a public health issue that is distorting young people's views and understanding of consent, intimacy and healthy relationships. Once again, I would welcome co-operation across the European Union in this regard. Can I get some clarity on the overall timeframe in which the Government would see these changes being made and the Bill being enacted?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I agree with all the sentiments the Deputy has articulated. It is a very serious and worrying issue. The Minister has briefed Cabinet on this for quite some time in terms of the violent nature of this pornographic material. There is a clear relationship between that and sexual violence against women, particularly in terms of the younger demographic in our country and globally, as the Deputy said. We need to really articulate that publicly, as the Deputy is doing now. It is important that we have these conversations because this is a crisis facing society and facing our younger populations in general in terms of the potential exposure they have to this violent pornography. I am not sure whether we will get the Bill to Second Stage before the recess."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Butler It is a priority."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach It is a priority, as the Chief Whip has just informed me. Certainly, we would want this passed early in the new year."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna \u00f3 na Comhalta\u00ed Eile - Other Members\u2019 Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-11\/debate\/dbsect_13","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Pholasa\u00ed n\u00f3 ar Reachta\u00edocht - Questions on Policy or Legislation","counts":{"speechCount":56,"speakerCount":20},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_13","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Liam Quaide","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Albert Dolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Kyne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Kyne.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Kyne.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Ward.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Barry-Ward.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Mac Lochlainn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ken O'Flynn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ken-O'Flynn.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ken-O'Flynn.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin Hayes","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Lou McDonald Ireland pays the EU's highest household electricity prices, over one third above the average. Figures have again exposed record August arrears and record long-term debt. As the Taoiseach knows, Irish families are now rationing heat and food just to keep the meters on. Why has the Taoiseach not acted decisively in the way families require to ease this burden? The Government's oil carbon tax cut was a half-measure at best. It got swallowed up by rising prices. The Government made no move in terms of electricity credits, as we advised. It made no move in terms of removing carbon taxes in their totality from home heating oil. Yet, the Government allows families to struggle on and pay what we know - it has been repeated again and again - are the highest costs in Europe, with record numbers in arrears."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach The outbreak of war in Ukraine due to the Russian invasion and, indeed, the closure of the Strait of Hormuz and attack on Iran have caused very excessive increases in energy prices. In the budget, we took significant particular measures to protect our population through tax cuts for workers; the cost of disability payment; the very substantial reduction in childcare that will, over time, impact positively on people; the enhancement and increase to old age pensions of \u20ac10; and also in respect of the fuel allowance. We have, therefore, taken a range of measures to try to alleviate the pressures that these undoubted increases in energy prices have placed on people."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy P\u00e1draig Rice I am hugely concerned that the Government does not understand the depths of the crisis in Cork University Hospital, CUH. Last week the Taoiseach did not even have the correct details of a crucial meeting between senior HSE officials and CUH management and you misled the D\u00e1il, presumably inadvertently. If he does not have the basic information, what else is he missing? Is he aware that the hospital is operating with zero ICU beds today or that 70 people were treated on trolleys and chairs at the hospital on Monday? Is he aware that hospital doctors are warning that the staffing and overcrowding crisis will cost lives? The only response from the Government to date has been to attack the management team at CUH. Jack Chambers was at it again in the House yesterday. What use is that to patients in Munster? This blame game has to stop. We need solutions before the situation gets any worse. Will the Taoiseach take this opportunity to correct the D\u00e1il record? What is the Government going to do to urgently alleviate this crisis in CUH?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach First, I did not mislead the D\u00e1il last week. That is unfair. What I said last week was that my understanding was that the regional executive officer, REO, was very clear that at no stage did he make any reference to instructions from the Taoiseach's office-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy P\u00e1draig Rice But he did-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Deputy, this is not a back and forth."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach -----or anybody from the Taoiseach's office. I want that to be clear because false assertions were made about my office. False assertions were made about my office but the REO has now come forward, based on a recording of what he did say in relation to instructions, but he accepted that was a false assertion. He said that he should not have said that and that it was wrong. He had made an earlier statement to the HSE. What I would say is that I do not know whether he was aware - sorry, I do not think he was aware - that this conversation between the management and the HSE was being recorded. I think there are ethical concerns about that, if I am honest, and perhaps it is symptomatic of a real problem if people are recording conversations between management of the HSE and management of the hospital."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Liam Quaide","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Liam Quaide What about the actual crisis in the hospital?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I do not know who was responsible for the recording but I feel, generally, that it is not the way forward for workplace relations."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Liam Quaide","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Liam Quaide What about the hospital?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy P\u00e1draig Rice What is the Taoiseach going to do?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach On the hospital-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle The time is up. Deputy Bacik."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach -----I will come back to the Deputy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy P\u00e1draig Rice No answer."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle No interruptions is what you mean"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I have one minute to answer."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ivana Bacik People are still dying in Gaza as they battle the elements. Displaced by Israel, their tents are flooding with torrential rain. The world must do more to hold Israel to account for ongoing violations of the human rights of those in Gaza and the West Bank. Here at home we must also do more. On numerous occasions I have raised with the Taoiseach the denial of visas to students from Palestine who have been awarded scholarships by Irish universities. Due to litigation by those students, the Department of justice has committed to deciding on the remaining student visa appeals by 18 November. However, Gaza is a difficult place to leave, just as it is a difficult place to survive in. The next assisted departure is scheduled for 23 November but an evacuation requires seven to ten days of advance coordination. This is really urgent. Have the names of all students awaiting visa appeal decisions been submitted to the relevant authorities for the 23 November evacuation? How can we ensure that no student is left behind?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach First, the situation in Gaza and the level of suffering inflicted on the civilian population, who are not responsible for the actions of Hamas, is shocking and an affront to human decency. Israeli strikes continue, humanitarian aid remains blocked and civilians continue to suffer. There is a sustained and deliberate attempt by some to make the prospect of a two-state solution impossible. There has been an election in Israel and I do not want to comment in respect of that until a new government is formed, other than to say that internationally, we should be doing everything we possibly can. Ireland continues to strongly support Palestine with additional funding. We have provided about \u20ac145 million in support to the people of Palestine since January 2023. That includes new funding of \u20ac41 million for the people of Palestine in 2026, and \u20ac78 million to UNRWA since 2023, with a further \u20ac20 million this year."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Thank you Taoiseach, the time is up."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach On the visas, I will revert to the Deputy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Seamus Healy I have to raise again with the Taoiseach the fact that the people of south Tipperary have no consultant ophthalmology service. There is no public eye service and this situation is now going into its third year. There is no consultant-led service, no optometry clinic and no nurse-led clinic. As a result, there is a huge waiting list of almost 3,000, including hundreds of children who have never been seen and hundreds of patients with conditions like glaucoma who have either never been seen or who need follow-up care. Many families are being forced into private treatment even though they are already under serious pressure from the cost of living. This is obviously unacceptable. Twice we have been promised what is called a \"blitz clinic\" to deal with the urgent cases and the backlog but that has not transpired, so now we have neither a permanent nor a temporary solution. Will the Taoiseach intervene to ensure that there is a public eye service in south Tipperary?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I thank the Deputy for raising what is a very significant issue for the people of Tipperary. The Deputy knows that the post is funded and quite a significant effort has been made to recruit someone for that post. At different times people may have accepted but not taken up the post. There have been sustained efforts to recruit to the post. In the interim, measures have been taken to provide services to people in respect of ophthalmology. The post is funded and efforts will continue to recruit."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Collins In the D\u00e1il last week I raised the case of a fisherman in west Cork who was out fishing in his trawler for five days and who ended up with a fuel bill of \u20ac22,580 for those five days. This is not sustainable. Bord Iascaigh Mhara, BIM, is due to roll out a fuel subsidy based on the size of a boat very soon. Inshore boats of between 6 m and 12 m will get \u20ac2,200. Boats of between 12 m and 18 m will get \u20ac4,400, while boats of between 18 m and 24 m will get \u20ac21,600 and those between 24 m and 40 m will get \u20ac26,500. There needs to be a new category if those with trawlers are to have any small chance of surviving. This new category should be 15 m to 18 m because someone with a 17 m trawler only gets \u20ac4,400 but someone with an 18 m trawler gets \u20ac21,600, even though they are both out in the same waters, in the same big ocean, fighting for their basic survival. The smaller boats are out in similar waters to the bigger trawlers. Will the Taoiseach communicate with BIM and the Minister of State, Deputy Dooley, and ask them to see if a new category can be added? If not, more trawlers will end up tied up at the pier."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach The Minister of State, Deputy Dooley, deserves considerable credit for his engagement with fishers and their representative organisations. He was insistent on a fuel subsidy and support scheme for fishers, which was well received. I have not gone into the specifics of the modus operandi of that particular scheme but I will refer the Deputy's points to the Minister."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Albert Dolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Albert Dolan One of the greatest supports to first-time builders in rural east Galway over the last few years was when the development levy waiver was in place. First-time builders that I speak to in east Galway tell me that they are happy to pay for their water connection because they are getting water and for their ESB connection because they are getting electricity. However, when it comes to the development contribution to the local authority, they cannot see the point of it. I say that because they do not see footpaths or street lighting outside their homes and, particularly in rural areas, they have to make a much bigger investment in a septic tank and do not have access to a public sewer. Scrapping that development contribution for first-time builders in rural east Galway and across the country would be a really welcome development. I would appreciate the Taoiseach's thoughts on the matter."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I thank the Deputy for raising the issue. We have provided a range of very substantial supports for first-time buyers in particular, including the help to buy scheme and the first home scheme. In terms of development levies, we did have that waiver. That led to a substantial number of commencements and gave an injection at the time but it could not be sustained forever. We just have to balance the level of expenditure on housing more generally, which is up to \u20ac9 billion this year. We have changed the planning guidelines and those changes would be supportive of rural first-time builders and buyers. It is about balance, really, in terms of how we support housing, particularly in rural Ireland. The vacant and derelict property grants were originally designed primarily for rural Ireland, particularly the derelict element because young couples could get the opportunity to get a substantial grant to refurbish and move back in."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Kyne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Kyne.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Kyne.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Se\u00e1n Kyne I am sure that the Taoiseach is aware of the great news that the judicial review against the Galway Port redevelopment has been withdrawn. It is full steam ahead for Galway Port. The proposals include a new deepwater port not reliant on gated docks that will cater for larger ships, a new naval berth and access for cruise shipping, freeing up inner lands for housing, leisure and recreation. It will also assist in preventing flood surges and protect the city. The port will allow and have rail connectivity. There is space for strategic oil reserve storage as required in an unstable geopolitical international environment. Funding is partly via land sale, own resources and loans. However, the ports policies as they are and were, and the draft ports policy do not support Galway's ambition. I ask the Taoiseach to engage with the Minister and the Minister of State in the Department of Transport to ensure that new ports policy is positive for Galway's redevelopment."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I welcome the good news of the withdrawal of the judicial review. This follows the good news in respect of the Galway ring road and infrastructure projects in general across the country. It reflects the work of the Minister, Deputy Chambers, and the accelerating delivery task force recommendations and their implementation. There is a new impetus in trying to get projects done quickly. I am familiar with the plans of the port. I visited some years ago and am fully au fait with the ambition of Galway Port. The ports policy has been approved by Government. We changed it on its journey to enable Government, if necessary, to fund capital developments in ports. Prior to this ports policy, the view was that they had to wash their own faces, so to speak, in terms of revenue and expenditure. However, given the nature of certain expenditures the ports will have to engage with the ORE on renewable energy and so on. From time to time there may be a need for support like Rosslare with Brexit where the State intervened to support it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett I ask the Taoiseach to intervene in the imminent closure of Little Wonders disability service in Castleblayney, County Monaghan. The service has been in operation since 2019. Following significant operating costs and wage increases in the sector they have come to the decision they will have to close. They have a service level agreement with the HSE, which is refusing to give them additional money to keep the service open. The service supports 25 children daily with another 50 on a waiting list. I ask the Taoiseach to intervene to ensure this service stays open. The HSE needs to support this service and provide adequate funding so the service can remain open. There have been protests and meetings. Parents and children are very distressed at the imminent closure of this service."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach The Government has provided funding for wage increases following the work of the joint labour committee in respect of early childcare workers. I am not familiar with the details of this specific facility and service but I will seek the background to this from the HSE on what the story is."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pa Daly There is a serious crisis in home help and elderly care in the community in County Kerry. Community hospitals have empty beds because they cannot recruit or even fill the vacancies they had. That is putting extra pressure on University Hospital Kerry where people trying to get home help for their loved ones who cannot come out of hospital are forced to either pay privately or wait a year to access home help. There are cost overruns as part of it but they should not be punished for this relatively small amount. I ask the Taoiseach to commit to funding to ensure people are not delayed and can access the services they need to take people out of hospital and give them proper care in the community."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach Approximately 60,000 people receive home care every day. The budget has expanded exponentially over the past number of years. There were issues with recruitment and getting a sufficiency of people to take up posts over the past two years. About 26 million hours of home care are being delivered in 2026. I hear what the Deputy is saying and I will engage with the HSE in respect of the issue he has raised."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mark Wall I am sure, like many Members in the House this morning, I received a number of phone calls from families who, in turn, had received phone calls from their schools about a potential bomb threat. This was not just one school.; it was hundreds of schools throughout the country. We can only imagine what those families went through this morning. Thankfully it was a hoax, but in some cases, including two schools in my area of Kildare South, they were evacuated. What is the Government doing about this threat to our way of life and democracy? Is An Garda fully aware of what is going on with this important matter?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach We are aware a number of schools received a threatening email this morning. The Department of justice has liaised with An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na at senior level with regard to this incident. The Minister for Education and Youth has spoken to the Minister for justice and her officials have been in constant contact with An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na has received several hundred calls and will liaise with each school in turn, noting that with the volume of calls this may take some time. An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na has advised the Department and is advising schools that based on its review of the threat, there is no need for schools to evacuate as these are generic email threats. If a school has received this email, it is advised to contact the emergency service at 999 and follow the advice of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. The Department of Education and Youth wrote to all schools this morning to advise the same."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Ward.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Barry-Ward.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Barry Ward Sixty five years ago this month, the thalidomide drug was withdrawn internationally from availability, although not in this jurisdiction. In this jurisdiction, there are approximately 40 survivors, 12 of them unacknowledged by the State in terms of the effects this drug had on them and the lifelong disabilities and injuries they suffered as a result, none of which acknowledges the guilt their mothers felt. Many of those women are dead. There has been a protracted process to achieve three things for the survivors of thalidomide. These are a proper heartfelt apology for State's failure to act, a medical scheme that deals with their significant personal medical issues and a fair compensation scheme. Two years ago, the Government wrote to them expressing regret. Will the Taoiseach now give those survivors a timeline as to when these matters will actually be resolved? Can it possibly be done by 27 November to commemorate that 65th anniversary? These people should not have to wait any longer."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach The T\u00e1naiste, Attorney General and I have been involved in a number of meetings with the thalidomide survivors and unacknowledged survivors. We met them four times this year. I am as frustrated as anybody. We are committed to a State apology at the conclusion of the resolution process. In terms of medicals, we have provided a comprehensive enhanced pathway. Significant Government support and funding have been provided for that pathway. In July 2024, we issued a detailed and enhanced package of health, social care and independent living supports co-designed with thalidomide survivors currently available. An expanded National Thalidomide Advocacy Office is now in place. We also have a draft pathway for unacknowledged thalidomide survivors. This was tabled last month following engagement with representatives of the thalidomide survivors group, legal representatives and medical representatives. We want to get this-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Time is up, Taoiseach."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Mac Lochlainn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy P\u00e1draig Mac Lochlainn The people of Letterkenny have waited many years for a relief road known as the Bonagee link. It has led to traffic misery not just for the people of Letterkenny but for people across County Donegal travelling to work and hospital appointments and for visitors to our county. There is utter bedlam regularly. The TEN-T project has been brought forward for a number of years. It takes in the relief road, the dual carriageway to Lifford on to the new A5, and the Ballybofey and Stranorlar bypass. Donegal County Council and the people of Donegal are asking the Taoiseach to make this a critical infrastructure project and make it progress urgently as soon as possible so we can deal with the traffic bedlam in Letterkenny and the other major roads issues in the county."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach That project is progressing. The Deputy can be assured that the agencies and statutory agencies involved and responsible for this will progress it. I do not mean this badly, but we have big projects like wastewater drainage schemes and things like that. On roads, we expect Transport Infrastructure Ireland and the county councils to deliver them once they are through the planning processes and so on. However, we do not put every road project on the critical infrastructure list. We have to prioritise some of the very big ones to make sure they progress through. However, I will certainly talk to the Minister for infrastructure to see if any particular issues are holding this back now."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Healy-Rae On the Short-Term Letting and Tourism Bill 2026, on 28 April, the Taoiseach told this House that planning law was planning and the seven-year rule was there. Basically, if someone is operating an Airbnb for seven years, he or she does not need planning permission. Yet the national planning statement still requires established operators without the necessary permission to apply for retention even where they have been operating for more than seven years. A presumption in favour of permission is not an exemption and a simplified application is still an application with no guarantee of its approval. A planning application can incur many difficulties. These are families that have spent years building businesses and supporting tourism in County Kerry and throughout this country through their own hard work and investment. They took genuine reassurances from the Taoiseach's words. Will he now ensure the legislation and planning rules deliver the seven year exemption his statement led those operators to expect or is he withdrawing that assurance today?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach The position in the legislation reflect comprehensive legal advice from the Attorney General but there has been unnecessary scaremongering on this issue."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Healy-Rae Not on my behalf."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I saw the Deputy's recent post and it was a bit over the top, if I may say so. The Deputy mentioned the presumption of entitlement to planning if you are there for more than seven years and the simplified application. We are endeavouring to meet the legal frameworks to enable people. We did agree on the 20,000 threshold. The Deputy was in government when we agreed that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Healy-Rae I appreciate that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach There has to be a balance here in enabling people to get housing in communities. We were criticised for the 20,000 threshold but in rural Ireland and areas where tourism is important, we want to facilitate people to maintain short-term letting, that is, in areas below that threshold. This is a mechanism and a framework to enable us to do this without any potential legal ultra vires act."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ken O'Flynn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ken-O'Flynn.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ken-O'Flynn.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ken O'Flynn October was one of the worst months on record for hospital overcrowding. University Hospital Cork, CUH, had 1,215 patients on trolleys. It was the second highest in the country. The CUH chief executive said their hospital had lost half the CT scanning capability because it cannot fill radiographer posts. Three hundred people are waiting for scan currently. We are now looking at patients taking up beds while waiting for scans, while others are on trolleys. I do not want to carry on the way the House carried on a while ago with the \"He said, she said\" sort of carry on. What I need from the Taoiseach - from a Corkman to a Corkman, representing a hospital our constituencies need - is a commitment to sanctioning the posts for CUH which are needed to restore the CT capability before Christmas."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I thank the Deputy for raising this issue in a constructive manner. We are concerned about increasing pressures on hospital across the length and breadth of the country, particularly on CUH. October has been a challenging month and the winter will be challenging. CUH has a substantial number of radiographers. I am at a loss as to why one of the CT scanners in the emergency department is not up and running. That should be prioritised. Moves are being made by the HSE to support the hospital. I believe there should be continuing engagement between HSE South West and the hospital management in respect of the issues facing it and to try to get this dealt with in a structured way through the established procedures. HIQA was there recently on an announced inspection in respect of safety issues. We have to use HIQA, the patient safety office and so on to identify safety risks, etc. The more important point is that we will do everything we possibly can to support the reduction of pressures on people."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Matt Carthy I want to return to the issue of Little Wonders. Families of children with disabilities in Monaghan and Cavan often describe their lives as a battle a day. They feel they have to fight for every service, whether it is occupational therapy, physiotherapy, speech and language therapy and respite. Many of those families describe the Little Wonders facility as their lifeline because this fantastic facility often fills the gaps in disability services. There is now a cloud hanging over the Little Wonders facility. Parents and friends along with the children had to protest yesterday because of the fear they have. My request to the Taoiseach is very simple. Will he appraise himself of the situation and directly intervene with the HSE because I believe a missive from his office can fast track what is absolutely logical, that the Little Wonders facility must be safeguarded into the future? It has to have the contract that will allow that to happen and to provide the peace of mind to those families who feel they always have to fight for these services."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I am not familiar with the background as to why the contractor, it seems to me, is withdrawing the service. I will talk to the Minister in respect of this but we provided funding for increased pay. Provision was made in last year\u2019s Estimate for that and this year\u2019s Estimate for next year as well in terms of fulfilling the agreements with the unions in respect of pay increases for childcare workers. I will try to get the background to this."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy John Connolly I want to continue to raise issues relative to the transport system in Galway city and the traffic issues people suffer. Traffic in Galway is always bad but there has been a particular spike in the past week for an unknown reason. It is not unusual for that to occur. Last week we welcomed fully planning permission for the city bypass. That needs to be complemented with adequate public transport infrastructure. There are two significant public transport projects in the city: the cross-city link and the Dublin Road bus corridor. The bus corridor received planning permission in 2025. I sought an update from the NTA last week as to when we might see work on the project and I was a bit disappointed and taken aback to read that construction will not commence until 2029. That seems to be in contrast with much of what we talk about in terms of accelerating infrastructure, which the Taoiseach referred to in earlier replies. Can that timeframe be reduced so that the construction of the Dublin Road bus corridor starts sooner?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach Did the Deputy say it has planning permission?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy John Connolly It has full planning permission."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I will talk to the Minister for Transport and ask him to engage with the NTA on its timelines in respect of that. I do not know whether that is a funding or a prioritisation issue on the part of the NTA but I will certainly talk to the Minister in respect of it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin Hayes","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Eoin Hayes I want to raise an acute social issue with the Taoiseach. Since April 2018, about 3,000 children have left care, either residential care or foster care, in some shape of form. I was shocked to learn that when they turn 18, they are often directed to emergency accommodation, to apply for housing supports and put on social welfare. Many come from very traumatic circumstances. I have met many of them. Some fall into addiction to cope while many end up homeless. Part of this is due to the supports available to them and how those are extended beyond the age of 18 when they are still in a vulnerable situation. When I was 18, I could not navigate many things, not to mind set up a life as an adult myself. Part of this is also about joined-up thinking and making sure the proper agencies are collaborating with one another to give these people a better start in life through educational supports, therapeutical supports and so on. What will the Government do about children leaving foster care, rehabilitative services and care services?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I agree with the Deputy that this is a critical moment in the life of a young person who has been in care with the care services and I have discussed this with the Minister for children. She is very supportive of the idea that we need to provide a greater continuum of services but also a safety net, particularly in terms of housing and social supports. I am familiar with initiatives that are being taken in Wales in this respect for young people leaving care. The Minister has brought some measures forward relating to this specific issue but we can do more to enable people to make the transition, which can go in many directions if the level of supports are not comprehensive enough in the early stage of transition from care into society."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna ar Pholasa\u00ed n\u00f3 ar Reachta\u00edocht - Questions on Policy or Legislation"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-11\/debate\/dbsect_14","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Criminal Justice (Unborn Victims of Crime) Bill 2026: First Stage","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_14","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Carol Nolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Carol Nolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Carol Nolan I move: That leave be granted to introduce a Bill entitled an Act to provide for criminal justice in respect of certain offences causing the death of an unborn child; and to provide for related matters. I sincerely thank my co-sponsors who made it possible for me to bring this Bill forward. The tragic death of baby Jax Aylward in 2024 gripped the sympathy of many in this country and in the House. At just 31 weeks of pregnancy, unborn baby Jax and his mother, Saoirse, were the victims of a road traffic collision caused by dangerous driving by a Ukrainian national who has since been sentenced to six months in jail. This case prompted the welcome move by Deputies Emer Currie and Barry Ward to introduce a Bill known as Jax's Law, this September. Although that particular Bill is a step in the right direction, its proposal still falls short of the kind of comprehensive law reform that is required. Over the past few years, we have seen multiple cases of pregnant women whose babies have died due to violence. In April 2021, in Dublin city centre, a pregnant woman in her third trimester miscarried following an attack by a criminal known to her, who hit her repeatedly. In December 2022, we learned of the harrowing case of the murder of Natalie McNally in Lurgan. She was 15 weeks pregnant and was murdered by her partner, Stephen McCullagh. In June 2025, in County Down, Sarah Montgomery who was 34 weeks pregnant with a baby boy was murdered. In each of these cases, there was not just a single victim, there were two victims, each with equal humanity and an accompanying right to have justice served under the law. The Bill aims to provide a more robust protection in law to ensure justice is served for both women and unborn babies who are the victims of violence. In addition to covering the death or serious bodily harm to an unborn child through careless or dangerous driving, the Bill also covers circumstances where a person kills an unborn child unlawfully while intending to kill or cause serious injury to the mother or to someone else other than the unborn child. Furthermore, it applies to all stages of gestation. The Road Traffic (Amendment) (Jax's Law) Bill 2026, introduced earlier this year excludes children before 23 weeks gestation and, unfortunately, dehumanises the unborn child by affirming that \"the provisions of this Act shall not be construed to confer personhood on any unborn child\". I do not believe that this is in keeping with the spirit of the Bill. Jax's Law was proposed as a response to a tragic taking of unborn life. We should apply the same principle across the board for unborn children who suffer violence at all stages of life and development. It is important for both parents and babies that their status as legitimate victims should be fully recognised. This Bill has been carefully drafted to ensure that unborn victims of violence have their rights respected. However, it is also important to stress that this law, if enacted, would not impact on the operation of the Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Act, 2018. This Bill is about recognising the inherent humanity of unborn children and vindicating their rights. They cannot speak for themselves, but they are entitled to justice when their lives are impacted or ended by violent acts, whether intentional or unintentional. The purpose of the Bill is to ensure that the law has the scope to impose appropriate and proportionate penalties where an unborn child loses their life as a result of a criminal act. Importantly, the Bill does not classify such an offence as murder. Rather, it provides for the death of an unborn child to be recognised as manslaughter, where the circumstances warrant it. The sentencing provisions for manslaughter offer considerable flexibility, ranging from a fine to life imprisonment. This allows the courts to take account of the particular circumstances of each individual case, including the seriousness of the offence, the level of culpability of the perpetrator, and any relevant personal circumstances. In doing so, the Bill seeks to ensure that penalties are proportionate and reflective of the gravity of the harm caused. The Bill is important to ensure justice for victims of violence for mothers and unborn children and I commend it to the House."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Is the Bill being opposed?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Mary Butler) It is not opposed."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Since this is a Private Members' Bill, Second Stage must, under Standing Orders, be taken in Private Members' time."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Carol Nolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Carol Nolan I move: \"That the Bill be taken in Private Members' time.\""},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Criminal Justice (Unborn Victims of Crime) Bill 2026: First Stage"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-11\/debate\/dbsect_15","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Planning and Development (Wind Turbines) Bill 2026: First Stage","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_15","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul Lawless I move: That leave be granted to introduce a Bill entitled an Act to make further provision for the regulation of wind turbines; to implement specific restrictions in relation thereto in the interests of local communities and occupiers of dwellings located in the vicinity of such turbines; and to provide for related matters. I am very proud to move this Bill on behalf of Aont\u00fa. It is a straightforward Bill that seeks to introduce some reasonable safeguards around the planning and construction of wind turbines. In recent months, plans have been revealed for eight wind farms across my constituency of Mayo. In recent years, wind farms have been planned, proposed and developed. A range of new planning applications have been submitted in County Mayo over the past months in Aghagower, Ballycastle, Bangor Erris, Geesala, Crossmolina, Mayo Abbey and many other communities. In Mayo Abbey, for example, the proposal consists of seven wind turbines, each one 160 m high. These turbines, if built, would be taller than the Statue of Liberty in New York, Big Ben in London and the Spire in Dublin. The blades measure 136 m in diameter and it is shocking that if laid out on the ground of Croke Park, they simply would not fit. A number of large data centres have been planned and built in recent years, particularly in the east of the country, and these are placing enormous pressure on our national grid. In 2024, data centres accounted for 22% of the electricity usage in the State, which is more than all of the urban homes combined. Data centres pay significantly less for electricity per kilowatt hour than ordinary households. The west of Ireland is being targeted, and we are now going to see a proliferation of new applications for wind turbine developments to feed the grid for these enormously energy-hungry data centres. Ireland already has the highest electricity costs in Europe. Wind turbines are being built not by the Government, but in the main by private international investment funds that often care very little about the communities. Their engagement is very questionable across the State. It is also a scandal that because the grid is unable to handle the large volume of electricity provided at certain stages of the week and of the day, many of these wind turbines must be turned off. This is known as curtailment. When these turbines are curtailed, compensation is paid, and it is the taxpayer and the bill payers who are paying for this enormous cost, and adding further costs in terms of bills. It is a cash cow. This Bill seeks to introduce a set-back distance between the turbines and the communities and homes in which they are proposed to be built. This is really important. The current guidelines are outdated, and they do not account for the massive turbines that are now being proposed in rural Ireland. Aont\u00fa wants to ensure that turbines cannot be located too close to homes. We want to ensure a proportionality in terms of the height of the turbine and the proximity to a home. We want to make sure that the turbine must be set back from homes at least ten times its own height. This would mean, for example, that the communities in Mayo Abbey and many others would be protected. It would force the companies to reflect on the distances and potentially reduce the height of these turbines. It would render many of these proposals in communities across Mayo impossible in their current form. It is reasonable. It is only fair that a proportionality would come into play here. I commend this Bill to the House. I have listened to many Government backbenchers who have raised similar concerns."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Is the Bill opposed?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Deputy Mary Butler) It is not opposed."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Since this is a Private Members' Bill, Second Stage must, under Standing Orders, be taken in Private Members' time."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul Lawless I move: \"That the Bill be taken in Private Members' time.\""},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an D\u00e1il ar fionra\u00ed ar 1.30 p.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 2.30 p.m."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sitting suspended at 1.30 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Planning and Development (Wind Turbines) Bill 2026: First Stage"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-11\/debate\/dbsect_16","debateType":"debate","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/105","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/105\/dail\/2","houseCode":"dail","stage":"2","isBillStage":true,"showAs":"Social Welfare Bill 2026: Second Stage (Resumed) (D\u00e1il)"}},"showAs":"Social Welfare Bill 2026: Second Stage (Resumed)","counts":{"speechCount":24,"speakerCount":20},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_16","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Callaghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Catherine-Callaghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Claire Kerrane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aisling Dempsey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter 'Chap' Cleere","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-'Chap'-Cleere.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Peter-'Chap'-Cleere.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Duncan Smith","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Duncan-Smith.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Duncan-Smith.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Stanley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Shane Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Shane-Moynihan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Shane-Moynihan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paula Butterly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paula-Butterly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paula-Butterly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ken O'Flynn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ken-O'Flynn.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ken-O'Flynn.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Willie O'Dea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Willie-O'Dea.D.1982-03-09","memberCode":"Willie-O'Dea.D.1982-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Brabazon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Brabazon.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Tom-Brabazon.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question again proposed: \"That the Bill be now read a Second Time.\""},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul McAuliffe I welcome the second day of debate on the very important Social Welfare Bill 2026. I also welcome the efforts of the Minister and Ministers of State involved in preparing the Bill both for the budget announcement and as it passes its way through the House. The total social protection package announced a number of weeks ago in the budget is worth over \u20ac30 billion. It is worth pausing to note that. There is an increase of \u20ac2 billion on 2026. Despite the debate at the weekend, the vast majority of that \u20ac30 billion goes to child, family, caring and pension payments. It is a basic floor that we set in our society to ensure that we protect and support people. I am always happy to stand over such a budget. Some people say that those who are on social welfare get everything and those who are working get nothing. The answer to that is not to detract from those who need the Social Welfare Bill and the basic floor that we have. Rather, it is to ensure that we make work pay and that the taxation of people who work is fair. That is how I would approach the feeling that is often out there. A huge array of positive measures are included in the Bill. I note the summation of the budget by the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI. Dr. Claire Keane, an associate research professor at the ESRI, said: Policy changes in Budget 2027, and indeed over the last seven budgets, have compensated households on average for price and wage growth. In particular, the lowest income households have been most protected. This is positive given we know that lower income groups spend more of their income on home heating and motor fuels [and so on]. That quote, from somebody who is independent of this House and all the political parties, is important to reference. Over the past seven budgets, this Government and the previous version of it put together budgets that have sought to protect people. If you were to listen to Opposition speakers in this House, you would not be able to reconcile their commentary with that of the ESRI. I note that the ESRI also makes other observations about the budget. I am not saying that everything was right but when we put it in context, we must say that this budget has done a lot to put money back in people's pockets. For a couple with three children on the working family payment, there is over \u20ac1,600 per year. For pensioners, there is over \u20ac600. With the living alone and fuel allowance increases, there are further benefits. I was most pleased by the change to the eligibility for the fuel allowance, particularly for single people. That has changed from 50% of the total available to a couple to 60%, which gives a little more to people who apply for the fuel allowance. It is a valuable tool to prevent fuel poverty. Somebody living on his or her own has many of the same costs as somebody living in a couple when it comes to heating their home. I would like us to go a little further in the years to come. The area in which we have seen most progress is the cost-of-disability payment. I acknowledge the work of the Minister and the Department, but also all of the different groups that have worked on this issue over several years. We know that the previous process that was introduced and was then withdrawn was an unfair way of categorising people. The Government is determined to try to introduce a cost-of-disability payment. This year's attempt to do that, with a lump sum payment of \u20ac500, is an important start. The most important part will be the co-design process that will happen next year to ensure that we have a cost-of-disability payment that affects all people with disabilities. I include in that those people with disabilities who are working. Those with disabilities who are working may not be eligible for this year's payment but when we co-design it, we must recognise that. Whether that is done through a fully refundable tax payment or by increasing the payment or eligibility, I would like to see that next year. I commend the Minister and the Ministers of State for the work they have done so far."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Callaghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Catherine-Callaghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Catherine Callaghan I welcome the opportunity to speak on the Bill. A good social protection system should protect people when they need support and must also help people to move forward and build a better future for themselves and their families. We all know that life does not always go according to plan. People lose jobs and families face unexpected challenges with ill health and family break-ups. Circumstances can change overnight, often due to matters that are outside individuals' control. That can be frightening for individuals and families. That is why we need a strong social protection system. As the T\u00e1naiste said at the weekend, it is a safety net that any one of us may need at some point in our lives. I also believe that supports come with responsibilities. We are exceptionally fortunate to live in a country with high levels of employment and opportunities for people who want to work. Our constituents often tell us that there is a job in this country for everybody who wants to work, yet the latest figures show that more than 52,000 people have been on the live register for a year or more. Being unemployed for a long time, of course, does not necessarily mean that somebody is unwilling to work. Some people face genuine barriers. They may lack qualifications. They may have lost confidence. They may simply need someone to give them an opportunity. That is where the State has a responsibility to help. Through Intreo training, apprenticeships and employment supports, we can help people to develop the skills and confidence they need to return to work. I welcome the Government's commitment to a new pathways to work strategy with a renewed focus on those who find it the hardest to get employment. I want to say something else about work while I have the opportunity. Sometimes, we forget the benefits of having a job. Working is good for us. It is good for our mental health. There is pride in earning your own money and providing for your own family. There are many opportunities out there. If people get out of bed, get involved and do something worthwhile, there are even opportunities to serve this great country of ours and make a real difference by joining the Defence Forces or An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. I want to be clear that I am not talking about people who cannot work because of illness or disability, nor am I speaking about people who have given up work to care for a loved one. We all know that caring for someone is a 24-hours-a-day responsibility. I am talking about people who are capable of working, who are receiving jobseeker's payment and who are expected to make a genuine effort to find employment. I do not think that is too much to ask. Getting somebody back to work is not just about saving the State money. It is about helping that person to have a better life. We must also be fair to the people who do get out of bed every morning, go to work, pay their taxes and help to fund the services and supports on which we all depend. If someone is capable of working and is in receipt of jobseeker's payments, I do not think it is unreasonable to expect them to engage with the supports that are available. If they are making a genuine effort, it should be recognised. However, where someone repeatedly refuses to engage without good reason, there must be consequences. That is why I support the proposed increase in penalties for those who refuse to engage with employment services. Of course, those penalties must always be applied fairly and must also take into account individual circumstances. I believe that everyone in Ireland deserves the opportunity to reach their full potential. That means supporting people when they need help, giving them opportunities and encouraging them to take responsibility for their own future. Social protection should never be about leaving people behind. It should be about helping people to move forward. That is the balance we should be trying to achieve. I welcome the measures before the House and am happy to support the Bill."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh Budget 2027 was about political choices, and those choices tell us exactly who had the ear of the Government in the weeks before it was announced and who was left outside the door. It certainly was not the pensioners whom I know who were afraid to turn on their heating, it was not the families struggling to put food on the table and it was not the workers being squeezed in every direction. Instead of addressing the real poverty and struggle people are going through, Fine Gael chose to attack people on jobseeker's allowance. The T\u00e1naiste's disgraceful comments are a dangerous dog whistle and give licence to those who want to vilify anybody who is receiving social welfare. When I was listening at the weekend, I could not understand the hypocrisy of it. The Minister of State will remember the debates we had in the House on JobPath and how the Government explicitly privatised the supports that were helping people get back to work and abolished the local employment services. The Government spent hundreds of millions of euro on private companies to do what it called \"activation\". That was disgraceful. Fine Gael should not pretend to the people that it is trying to save them by ensuring that people who are unemployed for longer than ten years are held to account and all of that. I am holding it to account. I know this is not the Minister of State, but it makes me really angry. That there has been such waste of money around the privatisation of the social welfare system is disgraceful. There has been duplication and disbanding of the local employment services, which were doing really good work in helping people who needed to get on that pathway. I agree that everybody deserves a job and that everybody who can be working should be working, for their dignity, their lifestyle and everything else. However, for a Government to choose to privatise and then to say that the people the private companies left behind are to be blamed for all of this is totally wrong. I also wish to raise the way this Government follows people beyond the grave. It follows dead people. These are people who maybe had Alzheimer's disease in the last stages of their lives and who were law-abiding citizens for all of their lives. They reached their late 80s or 90s, got Alzheimer's and forgot to tick a box or fill out a form. The Government comes and persecutes them after they are dead and criminalises them. It takes away their good name by saying that they claimed something wrong. That is totally wrong. I do not believe in anybody scamming or abusing the system, but when you have on the one hand the principles of paying out millions of euro and following people beyond the grave and, on the other, you have everything being taken from the poorest in society, it is not right."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mark Ward Let us cut to the chase. This Bill is about Simon Harris trying to look tough. He was trying to be the big man at the Fine Gael Ard-Fheis at the weekend by targeting the 1.1% of the population who had been unemployed for over 12 months. It was not even original. We all remember the \"rat for Leo\" line. What was its slogan? It was, \"Welfare cheats cheat us all\". It is the usual Fine Gael tactic of punching down. Fine Gael insists that it is not the banker, not the developer and not the vulture fund that is the problem, but the man or woman over there. It is the other, the less well-off, the 1.1% of the population. If we focus on the other person over there, we are letting the T\u00e1naiste and his cronies off the hook. We are not focusing on those in power. His answer is to threaten people who already have the least amount of power. What was the T\u00e1naiste's slogan at the weekend? It was, \"An Ireland alive with possibilities\". Possibilities for whom? Is there a possibility of ending homelessness soon? When Fine Gael came into government, there were 3,800 people who were homeless in this State. Today, there are almost 18,000. There are almost 6,000 children homeless. What is the possibility of those children having a home this Christmas? What is the possibility of opening the children's hospital? It is the hospital that the T\u00e1naiste signed off on as Minister for Health, which is still not open and which has so far cost the taxpayer an additional \u20ac1.3 billion euro. What about the possibility of no child waiting for more than four months for scoliosis treatment? Where was that possibility? I could go on because there are endless possibilities to put the wrongs inflicted by Fine Gael right but Fine Gael will not do pursue them. Actually, Fine Gael cannot do it. It does not have the capacity to fix the problems it created in the first place. It is too long in government. Social protection is a safety net, not a political punching bag. A Government serious about tackling long-term unemployment would address deprivation, keep young people engaged in education, and have proper employment services, accessible training and decent jobs. What we see is not leadership. Leadership would see Fine Gael stopping the sweetheart deal with the banks. Leadership would see Fine Gael taxing vulture funds on their rental properties. One of the things from the last budget many people have contacted me about was the increase in the living alone allowance. Imagine having the gall. Imagine being so out of touch to think that increasing the living alone allowance by a measly \u20ac3 would make any difference to a senior citizen. You would not even get a cup of coffee out of that \u20ac3. Pensioners are impacted by the cost of living like everybody else but pensioners who are living on their own are impacted more because they have to pay for the heating and all the other bills on their own. The Minister of State is involved in this. What planet was the Government thinking of when it issued a minimal, measly \u20ac3 increase in the living alone allowance?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Claire Kerrane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Claire Kerrane Before I speak to a number of the priorities that should be in this Bill, I ask the Minister of State to relay to the Minister, Deputy Calleary, a really important message about the additional needs payment. We are now into the winter. It is going to be a very tough winter for an awful lot of households. The one positive about the additional needs payment is that workers can access it. However, we continually have the issue of people coming to us because they have sought money for X and have been told it is not there. I had a lady yesterday who was told a gas bill could not be covered, yet the number one example for the longest time has been electricity or heating costs. I ask that a direction go out to our community welfare officers and to the social welfare offices across the State. We need that payment to be resourced and we need it to be as efficient as possible for people who will need it throughout the winter period. It needs to be there, it needs to protect and support people and it needs to be run as efficiently and quickly as possible. One thing missing from this Bill is access to illness benefit for the self-employed. It is a commitment in the programme for Government and the self-employed pay their PRSI. It is always a strange one. I remember that, back in 2015, a survey was done with the self-employed and illness benefit was the top payment they looked for, followed by invalidity pension. Invalidity pension was awarded and of course that is long-term, but if you are self-employed and you get sick tomorrow, the disability allowance usually is not an option because of the household means test, nor is the supplementary welfare allowance, SWA, so we need to see an extension of illness benefit to the self-employed as quickly as possible. If they get ill, they have no access to anything. That is unfair and needs to be dealt with. It is in the programme for Government but it needs to be moved on an awful lot quicker. On the cost of disability, the cost-of-disability payment should support the cost of disability. That is not the cost of disability if someone is on payment X, Y or Z. It has to focus on the additional cost of a disability no matter what payment someone receives. So many people are locked out of disability allowance because of the household means test. I hope that that will be looked at. On one-parent families, I always make this case. Maintenance was removed from household means as regards social welfare payments. That was welcome. It is still there across other Departments when accessing other payments, though. Maintenance is for the child or children and it should never ever be treated as household means and all Departments should treat it the same way. As for the comments the T\u00e1naiste made, I had a motion in the last D\u00e1il on our job clubs and our local employment services. It was a motion that was passed by this House. They were the people in the community who met people where they were at and who did not just look, as JobPath and the private providers do, at a job, any job, to tick a box so that they got paid. The job clubs and local employment services met the person where they were. They had wraparound services. They had all the supports, whether it was with addiction or otherwise. They supported people with what they needed. With the private companies, it is about a job, any job, so that they can get paid. That is their motive. They are companies - it is about profit, and that is what they do. Maybe the Department and the Minister can look back to the job clubs and the local employment services that this House supported in the motion I brought forward. They are a huge loss."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aisling Dempsey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Aisling Dempsey I welcome the Social Welfare Bill 2026. I commend my colleague, the Minister, Deputy Calleary, the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, and the whole team for bringing forward a package of measures that will make a genuine difference to households across the country. Taken together, all of these measures demonstrate a clear commitment to protecting vulnerable households, while ensuring that economic progress is shared fairly across society. It is a practical balance and it is a compassionate Bill that I am please to support. In particular, I welcome the introduction of the new cost-of-disability payment. For years, people with disabilities and disability organisations themselves have highlighted a reality that many of us take for granted, which is that living with a disability often means facing additional costs every single day, be those medical expenses, assistive technologies, home adaptations or simply the extra energy costs associated with living with a disability. Those costs add up quickly and are a constant. The \u20ac500 cost-of-disability payment is, therefore, a welcome acknowledgment by the Government that these additional costs are real and that they deserve a dedicated response. However, we all recognise that this is a very complex area and a lump sum payment is a very important start but as we continue developing this policy, there is merit in considering how existing supports can better recognise the realities of living with a disability. Let us take fuel costs as an example. Many people with disabilities spend significantly more time at home. Some people have conditions that make them particularly sensitive to cold temperatures and many disabled people simply need more heat and face higher energy bills as a result. That is why there is a strong argument for looking at measures such as automatic access to the fuel allowance for people on long-term disability payments. We should be examining ways to ensure that supports reach those with clearly identifiable needs, regardless of their means. I welcome the increase in the disability allowance earnings disregard and the expansion of employment supports. Our goal should be to create a system where people can work the hours they are capable of working, where they are capable of working them, without fear of losing the supports they depend on. Disability is not a one-size-fits-all experience, and our welfare system should reflect that. I would like to use this opportunity as well to raise the issue of foster and kinship carers. These are people who open their hearts and their homes to children who need stability, care and support. Foster carers play a critical role in our child protection system and they deserve support. As we begin looking ahead already to budget 2028, could the Minister give careful consideration to the concerns advanced by both foster care and kinship care organisations? Significant progress has been made in many areas of social protection but there is a strong case for examining the financial supports available to these carers and ensuring that they are adequately recognised for the vital role they perform. Could the Minister consider-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle I thank the Deputy very much."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter 'Chap' Cleere","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-'Chap'-Cleere.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Peter-'Chap'-Cleere.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peter 'Chap' Cleere I am delighted to speak today on this Bill. There is plenty in it to welcome - right across the board, from the State pension going over \u20ac300 a week for the first time since the foundation of the State to really important increases for carers and children. To me, the real strength of this Bill is the targeted supports for people who are most vulnerable. That is something on which I want to commend the Minister. I want to say why that matters so much. An increase across the board is welcome, there is no doubt about it, but for the people under real pressure, rising costs can eat that up very quickly. Targeting identifies the people who are carrying extra costs that others are not and puts the help right where they need it. To me, that is how we make every euro count. There are two groups in particular I want to home in on here today: people with disabilities and people living on their own. For the first time ever, there is a cost-of-disability payment. It starts with a \u20ac500 lump sum next year for people on long-term disability payments, and it will be developed further, working directly with disabled people and their advocates. That is an absolutely massive step. The State is acknowledging just how much more it costs to live with a disability. The Bill also makes it easier for disabled people to get into work if they want and are able to do so. The wage subsidy scheme drops from 15 hours a week to eight hours. Someone on a disability allowance will be able to earn over \u20ac9,000 a year without losing a cent of their payment. That is going to make a real difference to people right across the country. I want to see the same thinking for people living alone. This Bill makes a real start. The income limit for the fuel allowance for a single pensioner was always half of what a couple got. This Bill brings it up to 60% - \u20ac641. To me, that is the system finally catching up with what every person living alone already knows. One person cannot run half a house. There is no one to split the bills with and the heating, electricity, insurance and car all cost the same. The Society of St. Vincent de Paul says a person living alone needs nearly 80% of what a couple needs just to get by. The living alone increase is moving again, too; for the first time in five years. That is a welcome start, but I want to see it pushed ahead in the next budget and subsequent budgets. As rural affairs spokesperson for Fianna F\u00e1il, I also welcome the rural dweller pilot, which is expanding to 500 places. It lets over-50s in rural areas earn a top-up on their payments by doing part-time work with local community groups. My ask of the Minister is not for one big number, but to use the momentum from this Bill to keep the focus on targeted support for people with disabilities and people living alone. Will the Minister make sure that Carlow and Kilkenny get their fair share of those rural dweller places? I will be doing absolutely everything I can to get that over the line. This Bill shows what targeted support can do for the people who need it most, so they can get some breathing space and live with dignity. Let us keep it going."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Matt Carthy I am glad to get an opportunity to speak on the Social Welfare Bill and to raise with the Minister of State a case of a constituent of mine, a 44-year-old man who has cerebral palsy. He has been on the disability allowance payment since he was 18. This week, he received a letter from the Department seeking that he would complete a very comprehensive set of paperwork to indicate whether there has been any change in his medical condition or his personal circumstances. I hope the Minister of State is paying attention because this is his Department messing up. Who does it expect will have to go through all this? Is it this 44-year-old man who has cerebral palsy, who is doing his best to live an independent life, or his elderly parents? This family has made a correlation - I do not know whether there is one - between Rambo Harris's remarks about cracking down on social welfare payments and this letter that has come through their door. I am going to be raising this directly with the senior Minister and asking him to intervene, but I want to say it very clearly: this young man is not a burden on our State. He is an absolutely invaluable addition to our local community and he is much loved and appreciated, and our systems should reflect that. The systems within the Department should reflect that. There needs to be a system in place whereby it does not send somebody with a profound disability a form of this nature, asking them to reaffirm the situation as it has been every year since they were 18 when they are now 44. That is unfair and verging on the cruel. I will be writing to the Minister in this instance asking him to intervene and ensure that this request is withdrawn."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle I thank the Deputy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Matt Carthy Will the Minister of State ensure that his Department shows a bit of humanity when dealing with cases like this?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Duncan Smith","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Duncan-Smith.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Duncan-Smith.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Duncan Smith I want to open my remarks by referring to what the T\u00e1naiste stated at the Fine Gael Ard-Fheis at the weekend. As many people have said, it was absolutely appalling. I welcome that the Minister has somewhat distanced himself from them, but it goes without saying that this is what the entire country believes is the Government's approach to social welfare recipients. The T\u00e1naiste has called for us to bring in a system that is already in place and penalties that already exist. Where is he going with this? Is it to push people and jobseekers who are getting penalties of \u20ac90 already and who are living on \u20ac150 a week further into financial penury and God knows what? Is it totally to remove the floor of decency from anyone? We have a number of job activation schemes and have had for many years. The system is tough and is engaged with people who are not engaging with these services, and the penalties are in place. What is the T\u00e1naiste's messaging here? We know that when he walked into the Ard-Fheis, he said he wanted to appeal to people who used to vote for Fine Gael and maybe did not any more - maybe those voters who are attracted by the Minister, Jim O'Callaghan's language and movement on immigration. Those strongman politics may be working for one Minister in Fianna F\u00e1il on one issue, and disgusting as it is, the T\u00e1naiste is now trying to appropriate it for Fine Gael and make it work for him. When Fine Gael is in trouble, it always reaches for someone vulnerable and some group to punch down upon to distract from its own poor ratings and to put attention on a problem that does not exist. If a problem does exist, there are remedies for it and they are in place. It was one of the grubbiest and most disgusting things I have seen in my time in politics. The T\u00e1naiste needs to listen to what the Minister for Social Protection is saying in relation to the social protection system. This Bill is not perfect. It does not go anywhere near where we want it to go. However, it certainly does not reflect the tenor and atmosphere of the T\u00e1naiste's statement over the weekend. There is some distance there. When it comes to this Bill, we welcome that the Government has finally made a move on a cost-of-disability payment. We called for \u20ac30 a week. The Government has started with \u20ac10 a week. It is not enough but it is a start. Hopefully, we can see improvements in this area. Hopefully, this can become a fundamental of the social protection system. Domiciliary care allowance remains the forgotten or most poorly treated social protection payment. We all know the difficulties with domiciliary care allowance. It is the most difficult payment for applicants to get. They are made to jump through so many hoops. They believe they have to put in the application, which will be refused, so that they can then appeal. That is how people feel when they are applying for domiciliary care allowance. It is the one payment that did not get an increase in this budget. Again, those in receipt of or applying for domiciliary care allowance cannot help but ask why they are always treated differently and why they are always treated so poorly. I echo what my colleague Deputy Wall, the Labour Party spokesperson for social protection, said yesterday when he gave a fantastic speech and a fantastic analysis of where this Bill is deficient in relation to carer's allowance. The 600,000 family carers in this country save the State \u20ac20 billion a year in unpaid care work. As Deputy Wall said, that is the equivalent of another HSE. The Government continues to fail to plan to build capacity in this area and in residential and independent living options for people living with disabilities. It is more than 20 years since the Labour Party first called for the removal of the means test on the carer's allowance. It is about time that we saw genuine movement in this area. This Bill goes some way, but it does not go anywhere near enough. I reiterate that the T\u00e1naiste's comments at the weekend were an absolute disgrace and he needs to apologise for them."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle We will take the Members who are here. I call Deputy Boland. I propose to allow Deputy Gibney to take five minutes. Is that agreed? Agreed. She was at a committee."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Grace Boland Deputy Gibney can go first."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney I thank the Ceann Comhairle and everyone. I really appreciate it. In the context of this Bill, I wish to raise issues that affect people with disabilities and lone parents. Regarding working disabled people, on paper we supposedly have a system that promotes independent living and supports disabled people to enter the labour market if they wish. The Government continuously bandies about slogans over how important it is to make work pay. For too many people in this country, the prospect of a promotion, extra hours or a pay increase is not a cause for celebration but instead is a source of fear and anxiety. Those who receive disability allowance and have medical cards spend their whole lives walking a tightrope where they cannot earn enough to live comfortably but they also cannot risk losing the disability support they receive by going over an arbitrary income limit. Instead of making work pay, many people with disabilities are trapped in a catch-22 where they are much worse off in work. This undermines their agency, independence and right to participate in society. Systems like these are part of the reason that Ireland has one of the lowest rates of employment among disabled people in Europe at 32.6%, compared with an EU average of 51.3%. Similarly, there is no effort to make work pay in this Bill for people parenting alone. The Government has repeatedly failed to sufficiently increase income disregards for the jobseeker\u2019s transitional payment and the one-parent family payment. This means that lone parents cannot afford to enter employment, once again trapping them in a cycle of poverty. Since 2000, there has been a reduction of more than 55% in the amount of income that lone parents can earn before these payments are impacted. This makes it harder - not easier - to enter employment. This is not making work pay. I mentioned the reduction that has taken place since 2000. I had a child in 2000 as a lone parent. It kills me - it was one of the motivations for me to get into politics - that from about 2011 onwards people were so much worse off as single parents. It became so much harder to have a child and rear a child alone and navigate the Byzantine system of supports that are available for people who parent alone. They are negative incentives left, right and centre for them in terms of entering into work. I wish to discuss one-off measures and means testing. The once-off \u20ac500 cost-of-disability payment provided for in this budget is only available if a person already qualifies for another long-term disability payment, the vast majority of which are means tested. This crucially misses the entire point of a cost-of-disability payment. It does not matter how much a wheelchair user, a person who uses mobility aids or a person who needs assistive technology makes; they still have a series of huge unavoidable costs simply because they have a disability. That is what we are talking about in the Social Democrats when we talk about the cost of disability. Regrettably and regressively, the payment in next year's budget is once-off. People who have expressed their frustration to my office about this have explained that their disabilities and the costs associated with them will not evaporate in the next 12 months. As arts spokesperson for my party, I wish to speak about disabled artists and to highlight a particular aspect of their experience which often remains unseen. Disabled artists face huge barriers when it comes to accessing arts funding and measures that are meant to support them in their craft. This is something I have raised with the Departments of Culture, Communications and Sport and Social Protection. The lack of a formalised system for income disregards related to the Arts Council's funding and the basic income for the arts scheme leaves disabled artists in an administrative mess at best and at worst without the vital supports they need to live in dignity. For many, this creates a chilling effect where they are too afraid of losing their medical cards or other crucial supports to even apply for funding that should be available to them. I thank the DADA Campaign group, which has highlighted this, as well as many other disabled artists who continue to push for change in this area. Awards, grants and commissions for artists are not income. They are a total project budget. However, our social welfare system does not systematically recognise this and often treats them as personal income. If we want equal access to arts in this country and if we want to benefit from the fantastic talent and work of disabled people, we need to recognise them in our systems. Let us talk about what solutions look like. The situation for disabled people in employment, one-parent families and disabled artists can be solved by the same thing, which is viewing people with disabilities and people parenting alone not as an exception to be worked around or, worse, ignored but as a fundamental feature of the rich and diverse tapestry that makes up our society. We need to recognise why supports are there for people in the first place and look at the wider context of their living and working realities. If a system does not reflect the lived reality of so many disabled people and lone parents in this country, it is the system that must change. Inclusion is not about pity. It is not about charity. It is a duty that we have to every single person in this country to ensure they can live a good and dignified life. M\u00e1 t\u00e1 muid ag iarraidh t\u00edr a bheith againn ina bhfuil cothrom na F\u00e9inne ag gach duine, caithfidh muid c\u00f3ras a chruth\u00fa a aithn\u00edonn na difr\u00edochta\u00ed agus \u00e9ags\u00falachta\u00ed in\u00e1r bpobal. Is f\u00e9idir c\u00f3ras a chruth\u00fa at\u00e1 in ann freastal ar na h\u00e9ags\u00falachta\u00ed seo ach, faraor, n\u00edl s\u00e9 seo le feice\u00e1il i bpolasaithe an Rialtais. If we want a country of equals, we need systems that recognise the variations and differences in our communities."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Grace Boland I welcome the many positive measures contained in the Social Welfare Bill and the improvements across a wide range of social welfare supports, including the cost-of-living disability payment. I very much welcome progress made on the carer's income disregard. I acknowledge the substantial scale of this social welfare package of almost \u20ac31 billion. It is one of the largest investments made by the Government in any area. This reflects the value that this Government places on supporting pensioners, carers, people with disabilities, jobseekers, workers and families. I particularly welcome the increases in maternity, paternity, adoptive and parents' benefits. However, these remain flat-rate payments despite being funded through PRSI contributions. As I have raised repeatedly in this House, the time has come to deliver on the programme for Government commitment to expand pay-related social insurance benefits, starting with supports for parents. Supporting working families is not just good social policy; it is good economic policy. It strengthens workforce participation, helps employers to retain skilled staff and gives families greater financial security. Recent analysis from the Parliamentary Budget Office has highlighted the substantial surplus in the Social Insurance Fund, which now has reserves in excess of \u20ac20 billion. While those reserves have important long-term purposes, in particular relating to pensions, I ask the Minister to examine whether a portion of that strength can be used to improve PRSI-funded supports for working families. I have repeatedly raised the need for a public awareness campaign around entitlements for parents. Too many families, in particular fathers, remain unaware of important supports such as paternity leave and parents' leave. Supporting fathers to spend more time with their children in those early months benefits children, families and society as a whole. I want to touch on unemployment activation and Intreo. Many Intreo employees provide an excellent service and work hard to help people. However, it would be wrong of me to ignore the criticisms I regularly receive from my constituents who are service users. I continue to hear concerns from people who find the system overly bureaucratic, inflexible and difficult to navigate, in particular those trying to move from welfare into entrepreneurship or self-employment. These are people who are taking the initiative and trying to create jobs, build businesses and become economically independent, yet many of them report that the system can place obstacles in their path when it should be helping them to succeed. I ask the Minister to examine whether these schemes are sufficiently flexible and tailored to individual circumstances, in particular for those seeking to establish their own businesses. The question is very simple: if someone wants to move into entrepreneurship, are we making that journey easier or harder? I encourage the Minister to review these schemes, engage with Intreo teams and ensure activation services are genuinely supporting entrepreneurship, self-employment and business creation. I welcome the substantial social welfare package and the significant investment being made in social protection. I urge the Minister to move swiftly on the programme for Government commitment to expand pay-related social insurance benefits, beginning with supports to parents, and to ensure a renewed focus by Intreo on entrepreneurship within our employment activation system so that people seeking to build businesses and create jobs are supported and not discouraged. If we get those two areas right, we will strengthen families, our economy and our social protection system."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul Murphy I hope the Minister had a good time last weekend at the nasty party Ard-Fheis. Poor Simon Harris was not allowed to debate the motion he wanted to debate on Fine Gael embracing the anti-woke politics that have just been rejected by the American electorate. He is slightly late. Instead of being able to vote on that, he decided to use his Ard-Fheis speech to signal a further move rightward. The party is in a competition with Fianna F\u00e1il on that one. Unemployed people, older people and those who are struggling were collateral damage in the Fine Gael vice signalling. It was red meat for the Fine Gael base by creating a false narrative, which thankfully was rejected by the Minister at the start of the debate, about there being loads of people on the dole as a lifestyle choice. The Bill does the same thing. It does something, whereas Simon Harris was not doing anything. He did not propose any policies whatsoever. It was simply a rhetorical flourish. The Bill is about increasing the penalties for non-compliance with activation measures to \u20ac100 per week. One of the most disturbing aspects of the debate that then unfolded was the attempt by the T\u00e1naiste to portray and pretend that this is being done out of concern for the children of the long-term unemployed. Happy Christmas, kids. Fine Gael - that is, Scrooge - is going to cut your parents' dole but do not worry, it is somehow actually for your own good. This is a Government that has stood over an increase in the rate of child poverty in one of the richest countries in the world, where one in ten children are being deprived of necessities. Fine Gael and the Government, in terms of these policies, are now implementing extra-hard punitive measures which will punish children even more and drive more children into poverty. The T\u00e1naiste is fond of saying, \"Let's be clear on this\". Let us be clear on this: cutting someone's dole does nothing to help them to get a job. All it does is make their life and the lives of their children harder. People who are already poor and stressed out as a result of poverty are put under more pressure and this will not make it magically easier for them to find a job. It will not fix someone's mental health or addiction issues. Putting resources into public services would do that, but Fine Gael and Fianna F\u00e1il are not interested in doing that. All it will do is make life harder for unemployed people, which is what the T\u00e1naiste's speech, or parts of the Bill, are about. It is about performative cruelty which has marked this Government, in particular, since the start. It is about kicking the unemployed and immigrants and hoping people will be distracted by that and not see what the Government is up to every day of the week. This was an attempt to say to the people who are struggling, who go out to work, who pay a lot of taxes and who are struggling to pay mortgages, childcare and bills and to heat their homes that the problem they face is lazy unemployed people. The number of long-term unemployed people is historically low, at about half of the EU average. Only 8,000 people are unemployed year after year, in the words of the T\u00e1naiste. It is an act of mass distraction to say, \"Look down here, not up here at the people we represent\". Google walked through the front door of the Department of Finance before the last budget and asked for a tax change, which it got and which was worth \u20ac300 million for one company. The fast food giants got \u20ac400 million in tax breaks and the developers got another \u20ac300 million in the change to VAT. The Government is seeking to distract people from such massive corporate welfare. I ask the Minister to confirm that the T\u00e1naiste was engaging in disinformation when he told RT\u00c9 that 52,000 people are long-term unemployed. The true figure is 38,900. The reality is that a large majority of those have been unemployed for less than two years and that the number unemployed for over two years has fallen by 80% in the past ten years. My final point concerns older people, who are disproportionately unemployed because of discrimination that exists in the workforce. The system recognises that by exempting people aged 62 and older from having to engage in labour activation measures, but the T\u00e1naiste went after them. They were also collateral damage. Many people who worked their entire lives now find themselves out of a job and the T\u00e1naiste is going after them."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Stanley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Brian Stanley I am not sure whether the Minister will act on the T\u00e1naiste's speech last Saturday evening. I saw some of it and thought for a moment I was watching Nigel Farage on the BBC or Donald Trump on Fox News. I hope we will not swing further to the right in this country. We have seen the damage that was done in other countries across the world, including Britain and America, and the division it creates. I support helping unemployed people in getting back into employment. We should try to tackle long-term unemployment. There should be good activation measures so that people can get good jobs and have a reasonable quality of life. That should be the aim and we should continue to do that. That is where our focus should be, not on the type of populism we have heard. On this side of the House we are often accused of being ideologically hung up on different things. The T\u00e1naiste's speech was the most ideologically right-wing economic speech I heard at an Ard-Fheis for a long time. What is the Fianna F\u00e1il position on it? There are increases in this Social Welfare Bill. All increases are welcome. The problem is that we are chasing higher and higher prices. That is the issue. We have had a number of debates on the cost of living in recent weeks, including yesterday. I will say to the Minister and Government Deputies that they can keep chasing the higher prices, higher rents and higher electricity prices but the energy companies will make more profits, the landlords will make more profits, and the developers will make more profits because the house prices are getting higher, which means the mortgages get higher. There have been a range of measures put forward and the Minister may disagree with some of them, and that is fine. A whole suite of measures have been put forward by various parties and individuals, a lot of which I agree with, but not all of them. We really need to bring down the cost of living and the cost of doing things and going about your business in terms of insurance, energy, transport, etc. However, instead of that, we are driving costs up sky high. The social welfare increase is 3%. If we are talking about \u20ac10 on \u20ac300, it is about 3.3%. It does not keep up with all of those high costs, particularly energy and costs like it that which have gone up 9%, 10%, 12% in the past year. All increases are welcome but we are not doing enough because of runaway prices. We are starting in a different place. There was a proposal for two-tier child benefit. There is an argument for and against it. However, the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, study showed that it would lift 55,000 children directly out of poverty from those households that are on the lowest incomes. While it did not make it this year, it should be kept under review. I know there is an argument for and against it and questions about the families just above the threshold. That has to be considered. However, it is worth reviewing again. I want to raise the issue of temporary teachers. The pay-related jobseeker's benefit and allowance was to stop people falling off a cliff edge when they finish work and the next thing their income is a quarter of what it was last week. That is obviously shattering for people. I have had teachers contact me who do not have permanent contracts. When it comes to the school holidays, they are back on jobseeker's allowance or jobseeker's benefit and they are falling off the cliff edge at that point. Their income is down to 20% or 25% of what they were getting when they were teaching. I know how the calculation is done in terms of PRSI weeks, etc., but I ask that Department officials look at that again because teachers and people in the education sector in particular are in a very difficult situation. The last issue I want to raise is referred to as Xs and Os, or casual jobseeker's allowance or jobseeker's benefit. There is only earnings of \u20ac20 a day disallowed. As far as I can remember, that has been the same for the last quarter of a century. Some people's work by its nature is casual and temporary. It might be one day this week and three days next week. We should be helping people to maximise that and maximise the benefit of it to make sure we help to make it viable for them to continue to do that, instead of them giving up altogether and signing on for five days. That would at least keep people in work. I ask that the \u20ac20 that is disallowed be increased. The rest is reckoned at 60%. I ask that the Department officials take note of that. It is a quarter of a century since that \u20ac20 threshold has been changed."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Shane Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Shane-Moynihan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Shane-Moynihan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Shane Moynihan Ba mhaith liom f\u00e1ilte a chur roimh na togra\u00ed ar fad at\u00e1 sa Bhille Leasa Sh\u00f3isialaigh. Is togra\u00ed iad a l\u00e9ir\u00edonn na luachanna at\u00e1 ag mo ph\u00e1irt\u00ed faoi aire a thabhairt d\u00f3ibh si\u00fad nach bhfuil an m\u00e9id c\u00e9anna acu is a bhfuil ag daoine eile sa socha\u00ed, nach bhfuil s\u00e9 de chumas acu an m\u00e9id is m\u00f3 ioncaim a bhaint amach d\u00f3ibh f\u00e9in, agus at\u00e1 f\u00e1gtha taobh thiar. Is iad sin na bunluachanna a bhaineann leis an bpoblacht\u00e1nachas, agus cuireann s\u00e9 \u00e1thas orm iad a fheice\u00e1il \u00e1 cur chun cinn ag Aire de chuid Fhianna F\u00e1il sa Bhille seo. I welcome the Social Welfare Bill and a number of particular provisions therein. I particularly welcome the very solid and strong focus on the likes of the working family payment and child support payment, which are direct interventions from the State to continue to make work attractive for people - things that exist in our social welfare system at this moment in time and that are important to revive families that are working, not only economically - and I praise all those families who do work and who instil the ethic of work in their families - but also in terms of the supports that exist in our social welfare system to make sure those families are supported through things like the working family payment and the child support payment. I also welcome the fact that we have now put in place a permanent cost-of-disability payment, and I want to pay tribute to the Minister's leadership in securing that particular item of expenditure, putting it in law so that it becomes a budget line in and of itself that future governments will have to continue to enhance and develop. That is in response to very direct pressures from people we all represent in this House. There is continued progress being made on the carer's disregard threshold, which is a very welcome step forward. More and more people are now being taken out of that threshold. Of course, we need to continue to move at pace to bring more people out of it and to get rid of that overall means test in its entirety but there has been very solid progress made in that regard. I know the Minister is particularly passionate about the need to solidly and directly address child poverty in our country at the moment. I welcome the steps that have been taken in this budget and the engagement the Minister has had with me in this House on what models we can look at in the future to further support those families and further bring down that proportion of children who live in poverty in our country. Whether that is through the means-tested child benefit model or the taxable child benefit support, I think we are now developing the corpus of evidence both across the ESRI and from the Department to allow us to identify the best policy interventions we can take to really deal with child poverty, and not only to deal with it in a way that gives those children in poverty a decent standard of living but also in a way that continues to show them that in this economy, we reward people who work and we see that a job is not just an economic value creator but it is also something that gives purpose and gives people a stake in society. That is something our social welfare system does at the moment and it is something that I think the Minister is continuing to enhance with the measures he is bringing forward. I look forward to continued progress in the sphere of child poverty, and I very much commend this Bill to the House."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paula Butterly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paula-Butterly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paula-Butterly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paula Butterly I welcome the opportunity to speak on the Social Welfare Bill. The legislation delivers on the commitments made in budget 2027 and provides meaningful support to both individuals and families who continue to face cost-of-living pressures. I also welcome the increases in maternity benefit, paternity benefit, adoptive benefit and parent's benefit, together with improvements for carers. These measures recognise the invaluable role played by parents and families in our communities and provide practical support at important stages of our family lives. Importantly, the Bill also improves means-test arrangements and increases earnings disregards. This means people can work more while accessing important supports. For communities across County Louth, this legislation will support pensioners, carers, people with disabilities, working families, and those on lower incomes at a time when many households continue to feel financial pressures. However, we cannot stand still. Reform is needed, and on a couple of occasions, I have raised the issue here of working families who, through no fault of their own, have suffered as a result of being ill. I am looking at the illness benefit. I remind the Minister of the case I brought to him last year where a widow who had lost her husband got sick and could not access illness benefit, notwithstanding that she had paid all of her PRSI. I remind the Minister of the small retailer in County Louth who had to go into hospital and close his business for six months because he could not access illness benefit. Reform is needed. Many of the Opposition think it is absolutely right that no penalties should ever be faced if someone does not engage effectively and continuously with the employment services. Pathways to work is a way where the State needs to be encouraging people to engage and find work. In an economy that is at full employment, there are people who are not engaging with their local Intreo centre. They need to be brought on a journey. They need to be supported but when they do not engage, they need to be penalised. That is an unfortunate fact. Nobody wants to see it. We want to encourage people to work because it brings value and brings dignity. Working and leaving your house every day to go out to meet with people and contribute to society is not something that you should be ashamed of. It is something you should take pride in. When we talk about penalties, let us remind people that it was the Labour Party Minister, Joan Burton, who brought in the first penalties in 2011. We need a carrot at all times. We need to support our people but when the carrot does not work, the stick needs to come into action. We talk about putting money into people's pockets but we have to ensure the money goes into the right people's pockets."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ken O'Flynn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ken-O'Flynn.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ken-O'Flynn.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ken O'Flynn I will address the elephant in the room. Last weekend, at the Fine Gael Ard-Fheis in my home city of Cork, the T\u00e1naiste said the dole should be a safety net, not a way of life. He promised penalties for people who will not engage in employment schemes and that has been backed up already by the previous speaker from Fine Gael. The party is doubling down on that. The Taoiseach, however, has rejected those statements. Which is it? Are Fine Gael Party members, including its backbenchers, making those remarks as a statement or soundbite or do they reflect Government policy? Will the Minister clarify that for the House? The Minister who addressed the House earlier seemed to clarify it. It is worth noting that 6,329 people are on jobseeker's allowance for more than ten years and, additionally, 30,000 are in receipt of it for more than five years. In total, that gives a relatively small number. Perhaps the policy should be to help those people. The Government should be examining why 30,000 people have been unemployed for more than five years. Is it an education problem? Is it that they have not engaged properly with supports? I do not believe it is a question of not properly engaging. Some people are just left behind by society. Some people need to be helped a little bit more rather than being kicked while they are down. If only there were a Minister for further education, or a previous Minister, who had planned for that. If only a previous Minister for further education had looked at this issue as a whole and asked what he could do to improve it. Instead, he was busy on TikTok. We should not be lecturing people who are down and out and finding things difficult. I really do not know one person drawing the dole who is tripping the light fantastic. Nobody wants to be on the dole. Nobody wants to be on that amount of money, worrying about whether they will put food on the table or pay the ESB bill, gas bill or whatever other bill arrives. In fact, most people on the dole with whom I have engaged are afraid of the postman's knock and the next bill that is coming through their door. The elephant in the room that the T\u00e1naiste did not mention whatsoever is that figures released by the Department of Social Protection earlier this year show that 347,736 people with non-Irish nationality are receiving a social welfare payment. That includes child benefit and pensions and, of course, some of those people are working and paying their tax. Nobody should be criticised for that. However, in the interest of fairness and for the benefit of the House, will the Minister publish a full breakdown of every payment under every scheme by nationality and duration of claim? That would be a far fairer way to approach the issue in this House. Independent Ireland will support the Bill. I do not think anybody in this House will say we should not give an extra \u20ac10 to pensioners this year. However, its provisions only scratch the surface. Prior to the election 24 months ago, the Minister's party promised the people of Ireland a State pension of \u20ac350 per week. That is what was promised to get the Minister and his colleagues sitting on the benches on that side of the House, but they have not delivered it. Shopping bills have increased by an average of 5% to 11%. The Minister gave an increase of \u20ac3 in the living alone allowance. I have listened to Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael Members talk about what a great budget it was and what a great social welfare package is being given. People will not get a pint of milk and a sliced pan for \u20ac3. It does not buy a pound of butter, which costs \u20ac4.81 at the moment. It buys approximately 2.5 kg of potatoes. It certainly will not buy a pint anywhere in the country. It buys approximately 1.6 litres of petrol at the moment. The Fine Gael and Fianna F\u00e1il Members saying this is a great budget and pointing to the fabulous increases in payments are not taking into account the cost of living. In the past 24 months, we have seen shopping bills go up by about 11% and an increase in fuel costs of 18.3%. There are now 500,000 people in this country in arrears on their ESB or gas bill. Where is the \u20ac350 per week the Government promised? Widows and widowers, who are often the forgotten people in society, are faced with a deeply unfair situation. We know that when somebody passes away, approximately 80% of previous income is needed just to keep that household going. The cost of insurance, heating and lighting does not change. Too often, however, we see people's incomes decreasing by 50%. Will the Minister look seriously at a property tax exemption for pensioners? Currently, a deferral of payment is offered, at a 3% rate on top, for those on incomes up to \u20ac25,000, or \u20ac40,000 for a couple. That charge follows people into their grave. There are a number of people who should not be paying property tax after they reach 65 years of age. Will the Minister examine whether it is a possibility to introduce such an exemption in years to come? It is a very unfair tax for a lot of older people who are finding it tough to pay the bills, keep the lights on and heat their home. I also highlight the situation of carers and those with a disability. Another promise Members opposite made before occupying their seats on that side of the House was that they would abolish the means test for carers. Where are they with that? We all understand what carers do for this country. I have often asked the Minister, Deputy Calleary, and other Ministers who is taking care of the carers, who do a tremendous service to the State. The Minister knows it, I know it and every Member of the House knows it. The means test must be abolished. If people make promises to get to that side of the House, the least they should do while they occupy those seats is fulfil those promises."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Willie O'Dea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Willie-O'Dea.D.1982-03-09","memberCode":"Willie-O'Dea.D.1982-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Willie O'Dea The colleagues who have spoken have all pointed out the virtues of this Bill. I endorse what they said and I congratulate the Minister on all the reforms he has introduced and the improvements he has made to the system since his accession to the Department. As I have very little time, I will use it to address the question asked by a number of speakers about certain events that happened at the weekend and where my party stands on the matter. Let me be very clear about that. The T\u00e1naiste apparently got a flash of inspiration on the road to Cork. It is easily known that he was not travelling on the Limerick road because it is so hazardous that a person would not have time to feel inspiration or anything else. That flash of inspiration led him to discover who was responsible for all the ills facing Irish society. Who were these great blockers who were preventing measures that would reduce or eliminate all our ills at a stroke? It was the poor, he found, specifically those who are long-term employed; the people with no money. Party leaders are supposed to talk about policy at their party conference. I do not know what type of policy this is. To me, it is not policy. It is a man in a suit pointing a finger at a very vulnerable group of people who cannot answer back and then claiming that is leadership. If the T\u00e1naiste did a small bit of research - it is not very difficult to find this out - he would discover, as Deputy O'Flynn and others have said, that only a tiny percentage of the social welfare budget is spent on the long-term unemployed. They have to share that budget with those in receipt of jobseeker's benefit, who, by definition, are short-term unemployed, short-term jobseeker's allowance recipients, people who are ill, pensioners, bereaved partners and all the ancillary benefits that attach to those various payments. In fact, if we were to reduce to zero the amount paid to the long-term unemployed and let them all starve, it would have very little impact on the overall budgetary figures. This trick is not new or original. We saw Leo Varadkar engage in it as well. It is a very simply trick. It involves picking out a group of people who are small and voiceless enough that there will be no political risk to singling them out and promising a crackdown. What happens then? The audience cheers, the media get a headline and the Minister gets to look decisive. I do not want to unduly take up the time of the House and I am aware that my colleague Deputy Brabazon is speaking next. All I will say in conclusion is that when Leo Varadkar tried that stunt some years ago, it looked a bit weird and strange and everybody saw through it. Now it just looks utterly ludicrous and nakedly cynical."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Brabazon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Brabazon.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Tom-Brabazon.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Tom Brabazon There has been a lot of talk in the past week about social welfare and whether it is a good or bad thing. I am of the firm belief that we must have a strong social welfare system that protects the most vulnerable in our society. Yes, those who can work should work but there are many who are unable to work or have limited capacity to work. It is the duty of the State to ensure that there is a safety net for those who are unable to work, those with a disability, the elderly and parents. I welcome the measures outlined in the Bill and the increases across the associated social welfare payments. The programme for Government made a commitment to phasing out the means test for the carers' allowance during the lifetime of this Government. I urge the Department, the Minister for Social Protection and the Department of Finance to do everything possible on that commitment sooner rather than later. Many feel that the means test is a slap in the face and that the State is simply not doing enough to recognise the enormous contribution that carers make. There are people who dedicate their lives to caring for loved ones. By providing care that would otherwise have to be delivered through public services, carers also save the State the significant expense of \u20ac20 billion a year, by some estimates. That contribution deserves proper recognition. I also welcome the introduction of the new \u20ac500 annual cost-of-disability payment. While it is not enough, it is a start. People who are living with disabilities often face additional expenses that the rest of us simply do not have to consider, be they transport, heating, specialist equipment or everyday living costs. This payment is a welcome acknowledgement of those challenges. It is long overdue and I hope it is something we can build upon in future budgets. Another group I want to mention is people who live alone and particularly older people. Living alone is expensive. The electricity bill, the heating bill and the cost of maintaining a home all fall on one person when there is nobody to share those expenses with. We need to continue to look at how we can better support people living alone, especially as energy and household costs remain a significant burden. We have a responsibility in this House to protect those who need it. The measures outlined in this Bill and the recent budget are welcome. I hope to see the Government going forward during its lifetime."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister for Social Protection (Deputy Dara Calleary) Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis na Teachta\u00ed ar fad as na r\u00e1itis agus na tuairim\u00ed a nochtadh sa d\u00edosp\u00f3ireacht th\u00e1bhachtach seo. Bh\u00ed s\u00e9 suimi\u00fail go raibh i bhfad n\u00edos m\u00f3 daoine ag caint air seo n\u00e1 mar a bh\u00ed le c\u00fapla bliain anuas. Cuirim f\u00e1ilte roimhe sin. I thank all Deputies on all sides of the House for their contributions. Deputy O'Reilly and I, as veterans of this debate, will note that there has been a lot more participation in this debate than there has been for some years. That has to be welcomed and I look forward to continuing interest. The Bill underpins a budget for 2027 of \u20ac30.9 billion, which is an increase of 7% from last year, with over \u20ac1.15 billion in new measures. Many Deputies were making references to the fact that the budget did not provide for particular measures and particular increases, or that programme for Government commitments have not been delivered. It is simply not possible to include everything that I would wish in the Bill. All the suggestions have been noted but it is my intention to deliver three more social welfare budgets during my time as the Minister for Social Protection. The commitments within the programme for Government will be delivered on. I just want the Members to know the overall impact of the budget. The ESRI post-budget analysis found that the changes to tax, welfare and childcare supports in budget 2027 are, on average, ahead of forecast price growth of 3%. They are broadly in line with forecast wage growth of 4.1% for 2027. Those in the lower income deciles gain the most, helped by the cost-of-disability payment and increases in the child support payment. In the context of the cost-of-living pressures that are currently facing people, it is important that we place this on the record of the House. Deputy O'Reilly and others raised the issue of child poverty. I agree that one child in poverty is one too many. The social welfare budget package includes a number of targeted measures to this end, including increases in the child support payment, increases in the income threshold for the working family payment, an increase in the earnings disregard for a one-parent family and jobseeker transition payments. The holiday hunger programme, which was initially a pilot programme, will now become a permanent initiative next July, which will benefit 40,000 children. A question was raised by Deputy O'Reilly and others about the introduction of the second tier of child benefit as a means to tackle child poverty. We launched a public consultation in May this year on a potential targeted child payment as well as a proposed working age payment. That consultation concluded in June. Submissions were received from representative bodies, advocacy organisations, service providers and members of the public. The complexity of this issue is shown where the ESRI has recently given us revised proposals as we work through the detailed design of a potential new scheme. The previous ESRI proposal and previously assigned model would potentially have seen up to 100,000 families losing out on existing payments. The new proposal corrects that but this demonstrates the complexity involved here. We do not have a magic wand but we are very focused in relation to it. Deputies Brabazon, O'Dea and others raised the issue of the carers' allowance. Again, I will point out that within my first two budgets we have increased the carers' allowance disregard for singles and for couples by 84%. This means that a couple on over \u20ac126,000 will now be able to get a full payment without being in any way affected by the means test. In fact, they will be able to earn over \u20ac155,000 and still receive a partial payment. The programme for Government commits to the abolition of the carers' allowance means test over the lifetime of this Government. I think I have made very significant progress in these first two years but I also have an eye to existing carers. We have to support existing carers also. I want to thank the Deputies for their comments on the cost-of-disability payment. That payment will be made in the week commencing 15 February 2027 to some 240,000 recipients at an estimated investment over \u20ac119 million. I acknowledge that many Deputies are concerned about groups that are included and not included in the payment next year such as disabled workers who are not in receipt of social welfare payment and pensioners. We had a very constructive meeting last week with a group representing disabled workers who are not in receipt of a social welfare payment and we will have further engagements with the Department of Finance on their issues. As I noted in my opening statement yesterday, respecting the feedback from a very extensive consultation process that has taken place we will now engage in a co-design process with disabled people and their representatives on how the payment will be structured and delivered from 2028 on. One query was raised yesterday in relation to the permanency of the cost-of-disability payment. I can confirm this is a permanent measure. I expect the co-design process to conclude in the first half of 2027. I will bring a recommendation to Government ahead of budget 2028. A lot of contributions were made on the supports provided to the long-term unemployed. I clarified my position and that of the Government on that yesterday evening. Our public employment service is about helping people to take practical steps towards employment. It is delivered through Intreo and its partners. It brings together employment advice and income supports, and it helps jobseekers to identify the opportunities and to access the assistance they need. More than 50,000 people are currently receiving tailored support from dedicated job coaches through our Intreo partners to help them move towards employment. As I mentioned yesterday, the number of people who have been on the live register for a year or more is at its lowest level in two years at approximately 52,300, of whom 46,400 would actually receive a payment. Of those 52,300, a total of 17,700 have been on the live register for over a year. This is in the context of 2.84 million people who are currently in employment in the State. The live register is not a stock. It is a flow of people who are moving every week into and out of employment, progressing to training and education and into employment places. Some 58,800 people either entered or exited the long-term live register over the past 12 months. We are finalising the publication of the successor pathways to work strategy to strengthen efforts to support people who are long-term unemployed and who face barriers to enter the labour market. I have reiterated the word \"people\" on many occasions. The discussion coming down and reducing people to numbers is not helpful nor is it fair. Behind those numbers are individuals, families and sets of circumstances that are different for every person. For some, unemployment is a short-term experience. For others, it can be a much longer and more difficult journey, for reasons that are not always immediately apparent or obvious. Our responsibility as a Government is to ensure that the right supports, tailored opportunities and tailored pathways are there to help people who can and want to work. This is a responsibility I take very seriously and an approach my Department will continue to take. We will not be able to deliver the benefits of the Bill without the extraordinary team that works for the Department of Social Protection across the country. Once again I thank them for their work, and I thank all Deputies who have thanked them for their work. All the employees of the Department are dedicated to their roles. All of us have regular engagement with those who person the Oireachtas line. I acknowledge all of them. This progresses the delivery of commitments that are set out in the programme for Government. This provides for increased resources to reinforce a strong social safety net provided by the social protection system. There is work to be done in terms of the programme for Government commitments and I look forward to further progressing them in the three social welfare Bills that remain. I commend the Bill to the House."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Social Welfare Bill 2026: Second Stage (Resumed)"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-11\/debate\/dbsect_17","debateType":"debate","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/105","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/105\/dail\/motion\/referral","houseCode":"dail","stage":"motion","isBillStage":false,"showAs":"Social Welfare Bill 2026: Referral to Select Committee (D\u00e1il)"}},"showAs":"Social Welfare Bill 2026: Referral to Select Committee","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_17","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister for Social Protection (Deputy Dara Calleary) I move: That the Bill be referred to the Select Committee on Social Protection, Rural and Community Development pursuant to Standing Orders 103(2)(b) and 188(1)."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an D\u00e1il ar fionra\u00ed ar 3.52 p.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 3.55 p.m."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sitting suspended at 3.52 p.m. and resumed at 3.55 p.m."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Social Welfare Bill 2026: Referral to Select Committee"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-11\/debate\/dbsect_18","debateType":"debate","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/101","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/101\/dail\/3_sub","houseCode":"dail","stage":"3_sub","isBillStage":false,"showAs":"Short-Term Letting and Tourism Bill 2026: Committee and Remaining Stages (D\u00e1il)"}},"showAs":"Short-Term Letting and Tourism Bill 2026: Committee and Remaining Stages","counts":{"speechCount":97,"speakerCount":14},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_18","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mattie McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Nicholas Gogarty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sections 1 to 3, inclusive, agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"NEW SECTIONS"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh I move amendment No. 1: In page 6, between lines 25 and 26, to insert the following: \"4. The Minister shall within six months of the passing of this Act lay a report before both Houses of the Oireachtas setting out the number of short-term letting properties that have registered with Failte Ireland having availed of the seven-year grandfather clause in 5.1 of the Planning Policy Statement on Short-Term Lettings.\" I am sharing time with Deputy \u00d3 Broin. The Minister and I have had several conversations about the importance of the Bill. The fact that we did not have the planning guidelines left the Oireachtas committee in the position that it could not complete pre-legislative scrutiny but I am not going to go over that. The amendment relates to the seven-year grandfather clause. We are calling for a report within six months on the number of registered short-term letting properties availing of the clause. This would allow us to see whether the legislation is targeting the commercial investors with multiple properties or unfairly and disproportionately impacting small, family-run businesses and rural hosts. The amendment seeks to create transparency; establish how many properties benefit from the exemption; close the potential loopholes; allow for scrutiny of whether the clause weakens the planning restrictions; show the impact on housing supply, revealing the level of properties continuing in short-term letting use rather than potentially entering the residential market; provide evidence needed to determine whether the exemption is proportionate; and ensure that the legislation is operating fairly. More importantly, it will help to distinguish family-run accommodation from large commercial operators. A key provision we want in the legislation is a distinction between the small, family-run business and the large commercial operators that avail of tax incentives, loopholes and all of that. We are dealing with two very different categories here. We aim to improve Oireachtas oversight and enable early scrutiny and corrective action, where necessary, in respect of this legislation."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin One of the challenges of doing Committee Stage in the D\u00e1il is that there is a tendency for us to revert to Second Stage speeches. I am not going to do that in the few hours we have. There are two things I am going to try to do, and maybe the Minister and I can have a bit of an exchange as we go. The first is to raise some genuine concerns. Most of those concerns are about the planning policy statement that has been agreed by Cabinet. It does not fall under the Minister's remit and, therefore, my primary criticisms are actually of his counterpart, the Minister for housing, Deputy James Browne. This is the only opportunity we have to raise those concerns and at least bring them to the attention of Government. Second, there continues to be enormous confusion. Some of it has been caused by the slowness of publishing the policy statement and the genuine difficulty for people in getting their heads around it. Some of it has also been because Members in this Chamber have said things that I do not believe are factually accurate. It may be that they are confused themselves or that they have some ulterior agenda. I am urging the Minister to put as much clarity on the record as possible for all of those people who are trying to make sense of the legislation in front of us and the regulations, whether they are involved in the provision of tourism products or are concerned about the lack of rental supply in our housing system. One of challenges with the grandfather clause is that, according to the report that the Housing Agency asked Indecon to produce, which I have here, a table on page 14 indicates from its analysis through Inside Airbnb of short-term letting registrations with the platform that about 70% of people currently trading on Airbnb in the State have been trading for seven years or more. The difficulty, therefore, is that if we have a grandfather clause that is just a blanket presumption to grant permission with a very small number of caveats, then the overwhelming majority of those people are going to get it unless, for example, they could contribute to very significant road traffic hazards, where there is a serious risk of flooding or where there is a small number of short-term letters inside the old rent pressure zones, RPZs, that had planning enforcement taken against them. What we are trying to do with this amendment is have some monitoring and some assessment of that so that we can have a proper debate into the future. While I know that the Minister present is not the Minister with responsibility for planning, he is his proxy and he had that portfolio previously, so he is well acquainted. I want to understand why the Government has taken this approach. As I outlined in my Second Stage speech and as my colleague, Deputy Conway-Walsh, did much more eloquently than I did, we have always been very clear on what we want here. What we want, particularly in urban areas and where there is a shortage of rental supply and a significant homeless problem, is that there be a very tough regime whereby properties that were given planning permission for long-term residential occupation are brought back into long-term residential occupation. In rural high-amenity areas, however, we want a more flexible approach and that approach should do two things. Where people are involved in family businesses, particularly in properties that are within the curtilage of their own homes and have never have been in the rental sector or are not suitable for it, we want them to be able to regularise and get on with their business. However, where we have commercial interests - for example, there is a company that is registered in London that has been snapping up family homes throughout the Connemara Gaeltacht for short-term lets - that should not be permitted. The local authorities should have the tools, flexibility and, crucially, staff to make that decision. By having such a blanket grandfather clause, what the Government is essentially doing is allowing huge numbers of commercial operators that are illegally short-term letting what should be long-term residential homes to continue to do so. I just do not understand that because both the Minister, Deputy Burke, and the Minister, Deputy Browne, have repeatedly said that they want those types of property back in the housing system and that they are not the tourism product they are seeking to regularise and continue to operate. Why such a broad, wide and potentially dangerous grandfather clause? While we know that the Minister is not going to accept the amendment, I would like to hear what it is that both the Minister and his colleague, the Minister, Deputy Browne, are going to do in terms of monitoring the operation of this from 1 December to ensure that their twin aim, which as the Minister stated is to support a good-quality family tourism product in rural high-amenity areas while at the same time bringing properties that should be in long-term residential use back into residential use, is actually what happens."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Danny Healy-Rae I am glad to get the opportunity to talk on this very important Bill tonight, which I am against. It is a terrible attack on the democratic right of house owners to do what they wish with their own houses that they have bought, built, inherited or owned in one way or another. Many of these people have been doing Airbnb and short-term letting and have been involved in the tourism product we have in Killarney in County Kerry for many years and I am afraid that this is going to hurt many of those. Tourism has been a critical part of the financial well-being of Kerry since way back in the late 1800s when Queen Victoria visited Killarney and Muckross House. Since then, tourism has developed all over the county. Short-term lets - Airbnbs - are a critical part of this product. There are many parts of Kerry that do not have hotels. We remember when the hotels in Killarney were filled with refugees and asylum seekers. We depended so much on the short-term lets to allow people to come and stay in Kerry and keep the taxis and buses going. They kept the jarvies going. They kept the fishers going. They are so important. There are parts of west Kerry that do not have enough hotels. For that reason, we rely so much on these people. The seven-year rule has been mentioned in a negative way. It is called the grandfather rule or whatever. The seven-year rule is a fact of life in planning. When someone is at something or has something built for seven years or more, he or she has planning by default. On 10 February, I raised the seven-year rule with the Taoiseach on the Order of Business. I said: I believe anybody who has been doing Airbnb for more than seven years is entitled to planning permission because they already have it. There are people who [I know] have been doing this for 20 years and more. Whatever the Government is bringing forward should allow the people who have been doing Airbnb to continue doing it as they were. If the Government wants to bring in laws for new people going into Airbnb [that is a different story]. The Taoiseach answered, when I put it to him about the seven-year rule: Planning laws were there prior to this legislation. Any variation to commercial use requires planning permission. The Deputy referenced seven years plus. [The answer the Taoiseach gave me from where the Minister is sitting across from me was that I was] on the ball to a certain extent; that is the existing position, which is not changed by anything. Now, this is going to happen to people no matter how many years they have been at it. We were told that populations of less than 20,000 would be exempted from this. To get registered with F\u00e1ilte Ireland, people have to get a letter from the planning authority saying that they are exempt and be able to prove that they have been at it. They must go to get the planning, and it is up to the planning authority. I have been involved in planning and helping people in Kerry for as long as I can remember, both with my father and as a councillor. Since I got elected as a TD, I have been involved in people getting planning through default doing whatever they were doing or having whatever they had for-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Deputy, stick to the actual amendment."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Danny Healy-Rae Yes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle We have to do that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Danny Healy-Rae Yes, that is what I am getting at. The nub of it is that all people should be asked is to prove that they have been at it for seven years or more. They should not have to get a letter from the planning authority. That is what I am saying. That is what the Government has changed. I believe that the local authority has enough to contend with with applications coming in - fresh applications and every different application - besides asking it then to vet applications for people just to get registered with F\u00e1ilte Ireland. This is where people are going to get caught. I am telling people to be very careful before they apply for retention planning because if someone applies for retention planning, I know that that means they are actually saying that they do not have planning and asking for it. I am telling the people who have Airbnbs - people who have been at it for seven years, 20 years and more - to be very careful before they go looking for a letter from the local planning authority because that is going to jeopardise the fact that they have been at it for so long. I am asking people to be very careful and to take legal advice on it. Do they have planning if they have been at it for seven years or more or do they need to get a letter from the local authority? This is where I am asking people to be very careful. I appreciate, as much as anyone else, the great and valuable work these people and businesses have done for our communities in Kerry and, indeed, in all of the local communities around the country."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Deputy, stick to the amendment."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Danny Healy-Rae All right."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle There are many speakers and amendments. Please stick to the amendment."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Danny Healy-Rae I am finishing up anyway, but it is very relevant. It is all relevant. I am saying to people to be very careful-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle I will decide if it is relevant, and it is not, so finish up if you cannot be relevant."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Danny Healy-Rae I am getting there."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Healy-Rae A Cheann Comhairle, minutes are going to be very important in this."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Sorry, but the Deputy is going to finish up."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Danny Healy-Rae I did not interrupt Members-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy George Lawlor We did not say anything."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle No, no. I am-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Danny Healy-Rae I am asking people to be so careful before they look for retention planning just to get registered at this point in time. It is not fair, to my mind, what the Government is doing, trying to bring in laws-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Deputy, that is not relevant to this amendment."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Danny Healy-Rae All right. I will come back in again later if-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Yes, of course, but stick to the amendment you are speaking to. Thank you."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Danny Healy-Rae All right. Thank you."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle That is the rule under Standing Orders."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Healy-Rae A Cheann Comhairle-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle No, Deputy, it is not your turn. It is actually Deputy Hearne's."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Healy-Rae I am sorry."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Stick to the amendment, Deputy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Rory Hearne Yes, I hear the Ceann Comhairle. At the outset, I hope that the Minister can give a genuine and considered response to the issues that we raised previously. In terms of the amendments, I hope that he takes them on board because it will be very difficult for us to support this legislation if the amendments are not brought on board. The key concern of the Social Democrats is to ensure that there is a proper system of regulation put in place, one that balances the needs of tourism with housing needs. Our concern is that the Minister has been dragged into this. He has delayed and been dragged into it because of the requirement to meet the EU timeline but he is really not wholeheartedly behind what he said is trying to do and, in particular, what his own Government's national housing plan sets out. As I said the last day, this Bill actually breaches the Government's own housing plan. How can the Government introduce legislation that is actually contradicting its own national housing plan? That plan, as I set out in a previous contribution, makes it very clear that restrictions will apply to towns with populations greater than 10,000 but the Minister has now changed that to 20,000. I want clarity on that because it seems to me that there is a contradiction there. The other issue and the biggest concern that I have is around enforcement. Are we actually going to see genuine enforcement of these restrictions? I am also concerned about the issue raised earlier by Deputy \u00d3 Broin in relation to the grandfather clause, which is essentially a get-out clause. It is another example of Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael making up policy that sounds great but when it comes to practice, they provide opt-outs so that they are not really applying the policy, legislation and subsequent law equally. I am concerned about this because we have had a planning requirement in place since 2019. I went back and looked at the figures for the number of owners of short-term lets who had applied for planning permission between 2019 and 2024 and it was only 426. Only 186 applications were granted planning permission, so there are tens of thousands of short-term lets operating across the country with no planning permission. They have been in breach of the law for seven years? What is going to change now? The Government is going to introduce a register. My concern is about where the actual planning legal requirement will be when people make their declarations. Will that be evidenced? I hope that the Minister has made a change to require evidence of planning permission or planning exemption achieved. The other issue in relation to the grandfather clause is important. We should have evidence to see what impact this Bill has on properties. The Government said, and it made a commitment in its programme for Government, that short-term lets were going to be restricted to ensure that housing would be available for people. I am very concerned that this Bill is setting out overtly to achieve that but will not achieve it in practice."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Collins One thing the Minister said last week that I would agree with was that we should all co-operate and work together. Is he going to accept some of our amendments here tonight? That is how co-operation works, or it is certainly the way it has ever worked in the real world. I am standing up tonight for the protection of Airbnbs in rural communities. Once we sign into law the planning aspects of this, it is game over for many of them. It is game over for most of them unless there are new ones setting up. I listened to people talking in here last week and in fairness to Deputy George Lawlor, he was very much to the point. He was the best speaker here and Deputy Conway-Walsh was very good as well. The bottom line, though, is that when it came to pressing the button, he pressed the button the wrong way and was not able to convince the rest of the members of his party to do the same. That is very disappointing. The Social Democrats are so far removed. They have no clue how tourism works, yet their leader is from the capital of tourism. Maybe the lads from Kerry might fight with me on that but west Cork is the capital of tourism."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Rory Hearne Towns of 10,000 people-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Collins To think that Holly Cairns has not been able to explain to her party and give it an understanding of rural tourism is shocking beyond belief."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Deputy-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Collins It is shocking-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Deputy, the same goes for you-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Collins It will not be forgotten in west Cork."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle The same goes for you, Deputy. Stick to the amendment's content."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Collins I am talking about the amendment. I want to begin by acknowledging the amendment tabled by Sinn F\u00e9in. I can see the direction that party is going in and I recognise the concern behind this amendment. It asks the Minister to report on the number of short-term letting properties registered with F\u00e1ilte Ireland that have availed of the seven-year grandfather arrangement in the planning policy statement. That is useful information to have but I would make one very important point. There is a fundamental difference between reporting on how many operators have benefited from the Government's arrangement and actually giving established operators the legal certainty they need right now. That is where I have difficulty with the approach. I have been contacted by people throughout west Cork and other parts of rural Ireland who have operated holiday accommodation for years. Some have been operating for seven or eight years while others have been doing it for 15 or 20 years. These are established businesses. They are not people who suddenly decided last week to buy up a row of houses and put them on Airbnb, as some parties in here - those that have no understanding of tourism in rural Ireland - think. They are families who have invested in their properties, paid their taxes, welcomed visitors and contributed to the local economy. Now they are facing uncertainty about whether they will need another planning permit simply to continue what they have been doing for years. That is the issue we should be addressing. We have already had considerable confusion about the seven-year rule. The Taoiseach previously suggested to me in the D\u00e1il that somebody who had operated an Airbnb for seven years did not need planning permission. Is that the case tonight? No, it is not. Now we see that this Bill says that they will need to apply. Were we conned? Were we misled here in the D\u00e1il? Has the Taoiseach come in to correct the record of the D\u00e1il? These are very serious matters because tens of thousands of people are going to be put out of business. Even the companies that are out there protecting Airbnbs were all conned. I have been told that. I have been inundated with messages from my own constituency, never mind anywhere else, from people who were misled by Fine Gael and Fianna F\u00e1il. They were promised that this would not have planning in it in relation to the seven years and over. It is written all over the document. If the Minister wants to co-operate with people tonight, he should accept our amendments. These organisations believed the Government and told their people that because that is what they were told. Now they are in a fury because they realise they were conned. Everybody was conned in this game. The Minister was too. He was led up the garden path. It is no wonder he was giving out about Independent Ireland all weekend at the conference. There were texts coming out left, right and centre. They did not know if it was an Independent Ireland conference or a Fine Gael conference, they were so obsessed by us."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Try to stick to the amendment."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Collins I am sorry; I forgot about that actually. The Government's planning policy statement proposes a presumption in favour of retention permission for certain established operators, but a presumption in favour is not a guarantee. It is not a statutory exemption and does not provide the same certainty as a clear legal entitlement to continue an established use. That distinction is fundamental. A family that has operated a holiday cottage for 15 years should not have to rely on different interpretations of Government policy to establish whether they can continue their business. They need clarity. That brings me directly back to the Sinn F\u00e9in amendment, which asks for a report on the number of properties availing of the grandfather clause. What exactly is being called grandfathering? If an operator still has to apply for retention permission, pay the relevant fees, wait for planning decisions and face the possibility of refusal, that is not the same as a permanent statutory exemption. It may be a more favourable planning policy, but it is not the legal certainty that many established operators are looking for. That distinction matters when we are talking about how many businesses have benefited. Are we counting people who have obtained permission, people who have submitted applications, people who have been told they may qualify or people whose established use has been protected? Those are different things. I remind the House of the type of accommodation we are dealing with. In beautiful west Cork and along the western seaboard - I have had many people ringing me from all over the country - we have holiday cottages, converted farm buildings, small family-operated properties and accommodation developed specifically for tourism. Many of these properties have been providing accommodation for years. They support local restaurants, pubs, shops, attractions and employment. They support local employment specifically for a lot of women who are trying to provide a side income to educate their children and keep the family home going. Some of them could never realistically provide permanent residential accommodation. A small tourist cabin is not necessarily a family home. A converted traditional farm building is not automatically suitable for long-term occupation. A property used by a family for part of the year and rented to visitors for the remainder is not the same as an ordinary residential house. Permanently removing these distinctions from the rental market matters. It matters when deciding if a planning restriction is necessary. It matters when considering the effect on housing. It matters when determining if established operators should receive grandfathering protection. I acknowledge Deputy Gogarty's work on this legislation. It is clear from the amendment he has tabled that he has examined the practical circumstances of different operators in considerable detail. He has recognised the position of small family providers. He has addressed accommodation that is used privately for part of the year and by visitors seasonally. He has considered accommodation associated with the family home. Those are precisely the types of distinctions that must inform any meaningful grandfathering arrangements. I expect that we will all co-operate and work together. Are we going to see that tonight, or is the Minister going to oppose all these amendments? A simple count of properties benefiting from a policy statement will not, by itself, tell us if the Government has dealt fairly with the different types of established accommodation. I am disappointed with the approach taken by the Labour Party, when they voted against us last week, and in particular by the Social Democrats. There has been plenty of discussion about protecting housing. Nobody disputes the seriousness of the housing problem. However, we need more than a watery Opposition and political fence-sitting when it comes to the actual consequences for rural businesses. It is easy to talk about returning properties to the housing market."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Are you going to stick to the amendment?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Collins I am speaking about the Sinn F\u00e9in amendment. You have to ask if the particular property was ever realistically part of that market in the first place. There is a world of difference between an investor buying up ordinary residential houses in a city and a family operating an established holiday cottage in rural Cork. The legislation needs to recognise that difference. Otherwise, we risk applying an urban housing solution to rural tourism accommodation without properly examining the consequences. I turn to the recent European judgment. We have spoken at length with our MEP, Ciaran Mullooly. This is not dictated from Europe. It is a different policy completely to the one dictated from Europe. This is an Irish-driven solution. Last week I spoke about places like Durrus or Courtmacsherry feeding into the crisis in Dublin. It is outrageous what the Government has done here. Ciaran Mullooly has made that clear because he has spoken to his counterparts in Europe. While they want a register, they do not want to dictate to or close down businesses, which is what the Government is doing here. Smartflats also makes the question of proportionality particularly relevant. Planning restrictions on short-term letting may be justified but they must satisfy applicable requirements of necessity and proportionality. The European Commission's proposed affordable housing Act expressly recognised grandfathering as a possible and less restrictive alternative to prohibitions on property use. It demonstrates that grandfathering is a recognised policy option when the Government is considering how to regulate established uses. That is important in the context of this amendment. The question is not simply how many operators have benefited from a Government policy. The question is whether the policy provided adequate and proportionate protection in the first place. Returning to the Sinn F\u00e9in amendment, I understand what Deputies Conway-Walsh and \u00d3 Broin are trying to achieve. They want to establish how the seven-year grandfathering arrangements will work. That is a legitimate question, and I acknowledge the direction of their amendment. However, we should not have to wait six months after the legislation is passed to discover whether established businesses have been adequately protected. We can identify the uncertainty now. We know that a planning presumption is not the same as an exemption. We know the established operators are concerned about having to apply for permission. We know that some of these properties have been providing tourism accommodation for many years. We have brought forward our own proposals in 12 amendments. The Minister said he wants to co-operate, so I look forward to him agreeing to most of them dealing with the permanent grandfathering. I will address those in detail when the relevant amendments come before the committee. For now, I ask the Minister a straightforward question. Why should an established operator who has been providing tourist accommodation for seven, ten or 15 years have to go through another planning process simply to continue that established use, where the appropriate safety and environmental safeguards can be shown to exist? This is the central issue. While I acknowledge the purpose of the Sinn F\u00e9in amendment, I want the Government to go beyond reporting on this problem. I want it to provide established operators with the certainty they need."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mattie McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mattie McGrath I will be brief. I am disappointed that we are having this debate in the House and not in a committee where we can tease out all the issues that should be dealt with. The Minister has been talking about this for a long time. He met the organisations and the people. Commitments were given by Fianna F\u00e1il, Fine Gael and the Independents supporting them that they would not use a sledgehammer to crack a chestnut, which is what they have done here. They extended the registration period for more than a month, which is the busiest month of the year for people. Maybe it is not for the providers as they might not have many holiday makers, but Christmas is a busy time. There are end-of-year accounts if they are farming and whatever else. Some of them are calving early as well. It is a busy time, so a month is not an adequate period of time. It should definitely be extended to three months to give people more time. The seven-year clause is there. We have been debating that for decades at council and planning meetings, at the side of the road and everything else when something has been in existence for seven years. Now the Government is trying to suck them in, like a spider drawing them into the web to pounce on them. That is what they are at and people can see that. The Government is completely misguided in its belief that there are tens of thousands of housing units throughout the country in short-term lets. Nothing could be further from the truth. I visited Tom\u00e1s O'Keeffe's lovely building early yesterday morning. It is a restored farmhouse right in the middle of a farmyard. It is suitable for people who like that and come to visit. It is a great addition to the area for rural tourism. I could also mention a house in Dundrum in the middle of farmyard. Those properties cannot become living units for a normal family. It just will not happen. It is used by the family in these cases for anniversary masses, reunions and things like that. They then rent it out as non-farm income to supplement and augment their farm income which - my God - has been decimated enough with the CAP coming down the road. The Government wants to get involved in wars and armaments and cut money from the CAP. I am totally opposed to the way the Government has gone about this."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Conor Sheehan I will speak to the amendment. It deserves support because what the Government is doing with the grandfather clause, which I call the great-grandfather clause, is to give commercial operators an amnesty. It is only fair that the Oireachtas knows the scale of that. That is reasonable because this legislation will not address the Indecon report finding that 16,870 housing units or homes are being used as commercial short-term lets in areas of high housing demand. We need to see exactly where this legislation leads us to in six months because the way this has been handled has not been acceptable. The enterprise committee did pre-legislative scrutiny that it could not conclude because of some sort of a bun fight that was going on between the Department and the Department of housing in relation to agreeing the planning statement. The way the planning statement was handled was deeply cynical. At the eleventh hour, with no Oireachtas scrutiny at all, it was just presented to the Cabinet as a fait accompli . Then - wham, bam - we come in here tonight and we do this all in four hours. We know this is being rushed because the Minister has to meet an EU deadline. That is why the Government is rushing this through in the way that it is. This could have been done four years ago. It could have been done two years ago. As far as I recall, it was in the previous programme for Government. The fact of the matter is that we need to see the exact criteria that are going to apply to the seven-year threshold and to the grandfather clause. We need to see what exactly the effect of those criteria will be. I believe they will effectively, ipso facto , allow illegal short-term lets that are not complying with planning to get the presumption of planning permission to operate outside the parameters of the law, as it already stands. It is basically giving them a free pass. That is not acceptable because the stated purpose of this legislation is to get homes in high-demand areas that are being used as short-term lets, and should be part of our long-term rental supply, back into the long-term rental market to deal with the housing crisis. The Minister might address the fact that there are a number of significant errors in this Bill. Deputy Lawlor, my colleague, will speak on this later. There are errors in the Bill, as published, that have not yet been corrected and we are now on Committee Stage. Based on our analysis and the work we have done, we believe that unless some of these errors are corrected, they may make the Bill very difficult, if not impossible, to enforce. This is a sensible amendment. The Minister for housing claimed that the Bill provides for the strongest system of regulation of short-term lets in Europe. I do not believe that to be true. Certainly, for those of us on this side of the House who have gone through it, because of the grandfather clause or, as I have called it, the \"great-grandfather clause\", and because of the two-year bedding-in period, there are a number of holes in this. Those of us who have issues with the Bill believe it will be largely ineffective because of the system of self-certification and because of the holes we have found. There are also criticisms of the Bill from people who believe short-term lets should not be regulated at all. What we all agree on is that we should have a report laid before the House within six months to see clearly where we are at six months after its enactment."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Healy-Rae There are 71 amendments to deal with here today. There are people around the country and in the Gallery who want us to get on with the work. We are over half an hour into the debate and we have not dealt with one amendment yet. If we keep going this way, we will do nothing for the people. The people that I am talking about, in particular, are the people in Kerry who are looking for us to move these amendments. I am going to be so brief, it will be sensible and brief. I support the amendments that are put forward. I want to us to move on. I just want to clarify one matter. A previous Deputy spoke about an amnesty. There is no such thing as an amnesty in what the Minister is proposing. Everyone is to apply for planning. There is no EU deadline either. This is a Government-set deadline. We have 71 amendments. If we all stand up here tonight and make big flowery speeches, we will do nothing for this sector. The people who are here representing the organisations are horrified at the length of time it is taking us to deal with one amendment. The people at home who are watching what is going on in here are horrified to think we are talking and doing nothing. I want to move on with getting to the important amendments, having spoken to the Minister. I want to have the votes as necessary and drive this on. I want to try to work for people and not be making big flowery speeches about nothing."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Cheann Comhairle I am only following the-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Healy-Rae God, sure I am not saying a bit to you."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Cheann Comhairle God, I know you would not say that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Collins Is it me, so? Is it those of us who are standing by the people of Ireland and tourism?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Healy-Rae We have 71 amendments."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Collins We are well entitled to stand by our people."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Healy-Rae We have 71 amendments to move."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Collins We are all entitled to speak and we will."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Healy-Rae We have 71 amendments to move."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Collins I am standing by my people of west Cork and the Deputy can stand by his of Kerry and make up his own mind."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Healy-Rae Seventy-one amendments."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Okay, I am following the order of the House."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Healy-Rae I want to move the amendments."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Cheann Comhairle I call Deputy Richard O'Donoghue."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Collins A lot of them will not be improving amendments anyway."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard O'Donoghue Hold on now, Michael. I will not talk about flowery speeches because I am in construction and I understand what I am talking about. We might look at the way that Deputy Michael Healy-Rae should be still over in the Government because he has been voting with it since he left, even when he sat back over here. Now, we will speak to the amendment and we will get rid of the flowery words. It is very simple. Speaking to the amendments, we will look at the grandfather agreement and at the proposal to give people an extra month to apply for this. Will the Minister come into the real world? I believe the Minister, Deputy Peter Burke, probably does want to do something about it but the Minister, Deputy Browne, will not allow him. I advise Deputies to try to get an engineer or an architect in the next six months, never mind the next month. I deal with this on a daily basis. I deal with planning permission and building. I build. We are looking at the lack of people to do applications, the cost of doing the applications and the viability of doing the applications. Then we look at the seven-year rule that people are talking about. The seven-year rule means that if you apply for planning permission after the seven-year rule, you have to be granted a permission but you have to regularise what you have done once nobody had objected to it in the seven years that the building was there or the business was going on there. That is what the seven-year rule is, and that is simplified. The problem here is that the Minister is looking to regularise every person who has been doing this in the past seven years. We are talking about the same people who rolled up their sleeves and welcomed people from Ukraine. The Government filled every hotel in Ireland with people. The people who put out for the tourism sector of this country were those with the short-term lets. The people who welcomed people into this country to help the tourism industry were those with the short-term lets. What we are talking about here is a realistic time. I will outline what Minister should also be looking at if he wants people to regularise their units. To qualify under the current planning regulations - we are moving from SR 6 - you not only have to qualify under the building itself, and under the percolation if you have an external percolator, but you also have to qualify for road distance on an entrance coming into it. Even if there was no application made or no accidents recorded on the premises where you are, this is where the regularisation comes into it. This is why the Bill should have gone to the committee. As I said to the Minister yesterday, we are debating all the amendments in here today, but it should have been done in a committee. I would like to see how many Members who are talking about the flowery stuff voted for it not to go to the committee. That is where we should be dealing with this to get the problems sorted out before we bring it to this House and have it guillotined. I am going to sit down on this, and we are going to look at the different amendments to make sure we try to cover as many of them as we can. When someone stands up to say they want to talk about all the amendments when they were the one person who stopped it going to committee in the first place, then I have a concern. The same person votes with Government even though he has moved to the other side of the House. This is what I am talking about; talking out of both sides of the mouth. Let us look at the record here. Who was really trying to help is the likes of people from Independent Ireland. I have to admit that Fine Gael spoke long and hard enough about it at its Ard-Fheis and we are here today talking to the Minister again. It is like d\u00e9j\u00e0 vu ."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Nicholas Gogarty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul Nicholas Gogarty It is the first amendment and normally with the first amendment people tend to elaborate a little beyond the reasoning so we have to allow a little bit of leeway. This amendment is referring to something that is not even in the Bill because the Minister for housing is bringing in the changes. The core eligibility criteria for the seven-year rule include continuous operation for at least seven years, a clean enforcement record, safety and infrastructure standards and occupancy compliance. Then there are disqualifiers such as a local housing needs assessment and disproportionate concentration. Basically, it streamlines it, and they are hoops to jump through anyway. If all those criteria are met, a person is exempt from submitting architectural floor plans and elevations. They only have to give the approximate floor area and a brief description of the details, so it is a slightly less onerous process, but still onerous enough. For a lot of the places that have been operating for more than seven years, the concern is about the ones that are operating in tourism towns. These are the types of premises that family members own and would not dream of letting out as commercial landlords. That is what we are trying to protect. If we had just gone with the EU legislation, we could have had a very simple registration position but the Government was trying to merge the housing and tourism issues and trying to deal with the urban operators who are milking the system by having short-term lets when they should be letting properties out with proper Residential Tenancies Board, RTB, adherence and freeing up houses in the market. I fully support that because it makes a lot of sense. However, as I said previously, and as Deputy McGrath just referenced, the Government is trying to crack a nut with a sledgehammer. I do not think anyone in this Chamber should really oppose the amendment because all it is doing is looking for a report. There are valid reasons people would apply under the seven-year rule for less onerous restrictions. It is not any conspiracy theory of people trying to get out of renting under the RTB through the back door. It is not, pure and simple, so let us get on with the legislation and debate the more intricate bits that we need to protect people in rural communities."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister for Enterprise, Tourism and Employment (Deputy Peter Burke) I thank the Deputies for their contributions. I will outline the technical response to amendment No. 1. While the policy objective of the amendment is clearly understood, the drafting is technically incorrect and could give rise to legal operational uncertainty. The Bill does not provide for a grandfathering clause. Section 47 introduces a new section 83A to the Planning and Development Act 2004, which grants two years' grace for operators outside built-up areas with a population of under 20,000 to regularise their planning status. The national planning statement recognises rights under the planning code, whereby if no enforcement action has been taken by the planning authority for at least seven years, an operator may apply for retention permission to regularise an established but unauthorised use. This provides a pathway for long-established short-term rental accommodation to achieve planning compliance and participate in the registration system. The short-term letting registration scheme has been designed to comply with requirements of the EU short-term rental regulation, which establishes a harmonisation registration framework across the Single Market. Under Article 4(3)(a) of the regulation, registration procedures must operate on the basis of declarations made by hosts. Article 4(3)(b) further requires member states to provide for outlying registration procedures that allow for the automatic and immediate issuance of a registration number. Article 5(1)(b) requires hosts to declare whether the accommodation is subject to an authorisation scheme and, where applicable, whether the necessary authorisation has been obtained. In Ireland, authorisation to provide short-term rental accommodation is determined by compliance with the planning code. The regulation does not provide for different treatment based on the length of time a host has been operating. As a result, the duration of the operator's activity in the market cannot form part of the registration process nor can it be used as a basis for determining eligibility for registration. Accordingly, the registration process cannot require a host to provide information on how long they have been operating. Rather, in accordance with the regulation, hosts are required to declare whether they have the necessary authorisation to offer short-term rental accommodation services. Regarding some of the comments that have been well-made by Deputies, I can appreciate that people are coming from very different perspectives and backgrounds here. As a rural TD and tourism Minister, I bring to the table concerns about our rural economy and areas where the availability of tourism accommodation is challenged and trying to ensure that we do not create unintended consequences for the tourism sector. I am also very aware of the acute housing needs in society. As a Government, we cannot stand by and watch housing units being rented out for one, two, or three weekends a month in areas where people cannot get secure housing accommodation or cannot get long-term rental accommodation. That is an absolute need that society has to balance. The Government cannot stand by and not take action and let 10% growth in the sector carry on year after year without any regulation. It is incumbent on Government to act. However, we have to act in a balanced way and that is where we hear both sides of the debate coming to the forefront here. We can see with this amendment Members supporting it with very different perspectives coming to the table. There are a few comments I would like to put on the record. I understand that there is a lot of concern in relation to the different perspectives. First, let us consider someone in a population area of under 20,000 in the short-term letting market and letting out accommodation for more than seven years but who does not have planning compliance. I have been very clear that the person has to pay a registration fee of \u20ac25 to F\u00e1ilte Ireland and has two years to be compliant. Second, the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage has drafted a planning statement whereby it states very clearly that there shall be a presumption in favour of granting planning permission. It is also very clear in relation to the retention process that we have from last September a streamlined administrative process which clearly states that the new SI 500\/2026 provides for detailed plans or maps not being required where this is a wholly administrative process for applications where no additional works are proposed. There is a streamlined process with a \u20ac25 registration fee and two years to carry out regularisation. That is a fair, balanced and proportionate approach for people who are engaged in the short-term letting market in areas where tourism accommodation is needed. It is very important to drive that huge economic growth that we have in many rural areas. If they have been operating for less than seven years, they still avail of the streamlined administrative process and get planning permission. The Government has a call to make, and this is key in deciding what the metric is. I hear a lot of voices across the Chamber but I do not hear many identifying exactly what Members want. Many of them said that they want to protect rural businesses and communities. How do we do that? No one identified the rule that will lead to us protecting rural businesses and communities. The original threshold identified by the Government, about which I had considerable concern, was towns with a population of 10,000. That would have brought an additional 29 towns into the reckoning. Some of those towns are in areas in which accommodation is needed for our tourism sector. As the Minister for tourism, working with the Minister, Deputy Browne, I have to balance those needs. That is why the Government, through discussions, came forward with a threshold of a population of 20,000, which includes 25 towns and cities. We believe that provides a greater balance. Deputies said that tens of thousands of units are going to come back through this process. I do not believe that for one minute. We are not going to get tens of thousands of units back. I have seen no data to suggest that will be the case. However, in some of the 25 areas where housing demand is acute, I expect we will get a significant proportion of accommodation units back into the long-term rental market. That is what we are aiming to do. That is what the design is for. A Deputy asked why people should have to go forward into another planning process if they have been in operation for seven years. If people have been in operation for seven years, they do not have planning permission. That is the key issue. We are not asking someone to go forward into another planning process. They are not complying with the law right now. Surely we should expect people to be in compliance with the law of the land. It is critical that we, as a State, have tourism information data to allow us, as policymakers, to plan and decide on the policies that our tourism sector needs for the future. That is good for our tourism operators. Many of them welcome this legislation because it will provide valuable data to assist us in the future. I appreciate Deputies' bona fides. I am a rural TD. I know that these balancing issues are tricky. I know that to weave a cohesive path through the D\u00e1il is difficult. I accept that people are concerned about the timing. I understand that. However, I am limited, too. I am trying to work with my Government colleagues and another Department. I am not in control of everything. We have tried to work with the committee as best we can, but I cannot control the operation of everything within the system. We have made our best effort. We had a good communication campaign and there will be a second in September. I have met many operators. The team in the Department has had many round-table discussions with stakeholders over recent years. This has been proposed for a long time. We have achieved a fair balance. Unfortunately, for the reasons I have given, I am unable to accept the amendment. However, I thank Deputies and appreciate the bona fides that everyone is bringing to the table."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin I have two brief comments and two queries to help with clarification. The amendment is trying to address a challenge. If the Minister were to come to my constituency in Dublin Mid-West, which is suburban Dublin, and I took him to Cabra in the north inner city, but also if I were to bring him to part of the Cooley Peninsula or the Connemara Gaeltacht, I would show him homes. They are not at all the rural businesses we are talking about and trying to support in different ways. These are homes that were built for residential occupation and that have been acquired not by local families or communities but by commercial interests, which, in many instances, are not rooted in those communities. If they have been operating for more than seven years, they will, under the terms of the planning policy statement, have a presumption of a grant. The difficulty with that is that it runs completely contrary to the Government's stated aim of wanting those properties back in residential occupation. I agree completely that we are not talking about tens of thousands of properties. I have always thought that people on the Government side and the Opposition side who use those types of figures are doing us all an injustice. However, having a system whereby commercial operators, which have sucked family homes out of the residential market, whether in urban or rural areas, are given this seven-year period simply makes no sense. I suspect it will be open to legal challenge by somebody who has been operating for six or five years. The seven-year rule is arbitrary and is not linked to planning enforcement. The Minister is correct that just because somebody has been operating outside the planning process for seven years does not mean that he or she is planning compliant. In fact, the opposite is the case. There may be genuine difficulties in that regard. There is another problem with the 10,000 and 20,000 thresholds. I am not questioning the Minister's bona fides, but I have genuine concerns. The 10,000 threshold means that Maynooth is no longer captured by the stricter regime, and it should be. In residential parts of Maynooth, there is significant short-term letting in properties that were recently built for long-term residential occupation. That is a real problem. Let us consider some of those very high tourism areas. There are Deputies present who represent those communities in counties Kerry and Cork and they have far better knowledge of them than I do. However, I should not be allowed to form a fund with some people in Dublin and go into An Daingean, Tralee, Killarney or wherever else and start buying up homes on housing estates and letting them in the short term. I should not be allowed to do that. However, if I have been doing that for seven years, I have a get out of jail free card. That causes difficulties for the genuine family-based tourism businesses in those areas. The threshold, whether it is 10,000 or 20,000, is completely arbitrary. Almost all of us are united on the fact that it is not based on anything. The Minister has dealt with one of my questions, but I want him to be specific. Some people think the retention processes outlined in the circular he mentioned, and which I have in front of me, only applies to people availing of the grandfather clause. In his response, he made it clear that is not the case. It will apply to all of those who are applying for planning permission. If we were crystal-clear about that, it would clear up some of the confusion. The other issue is that nobody knows what the planning fees will be. The application form for retention is very short. I have it in front of me. I have no issue with that. In fact, it is helpful. That there are no required drawings or inputs from architects or engineers should be of some comfort to people. However, the fees are still unclear and, therefore, if the Minister could provide any clarity, I would appreciate it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peter Burke I thank the Deputy for his comments. The streamlined process applies across the board. I want to provide clarity on that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin It is for everybody."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peter Burke It is for everyone. The average retention fee is approximately \u20ac125. That will be paid through the local authorities, depending on their charging policy in that regard. I hear what the Deputy said. There are difficult challenges for policymakers when we are trying to find a strong balance for a proposal that has significant teeth to deliver, particularly in those 25 towns I mentioned with a population of over 20,000. However, in consultation with the Attorney General, I was advised that there is an established legal principle to the effect that I cannot differentiate in respect of the seven years in towns with populations of over 20,000 and under 20,000. The advice was that I could not offer a seven-year process for towns with populations of less than 20,000 whereby they could have a streamlined process for regularising their planning and not allow it in towns with populations of over 20,000."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin Nor would I have argued that, but that is a separate issue"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peter Burke We are trying to balance the rural economy and accessible accommodation with having to allow for a process in towns with a population of over 20,000. I am being frank and honest. Those are the challenges you meet when you are trying to deliberate on these policies. That was the established legal principle I was advised of on that point. I know that people give out about the thresholds. I am disappointed that I have not heard anyone else come forward with an alternative. It is easy for us to say that we need to protect local businesses and the families who are bringing in a small bit of revenue through Airbnb to put their kids through college but that we do not want the commercial operator up the road partaking of that behaviour. Those are nice thoughts, but from a legal perspective I have not seen anyone put forward such an amendment. Of all the amendments before us, I see none that puts forward a mechanism to deliver on some of these issues. I have brought forward a clear pathway that protects tourism in rural Ireland. If someone is in a town, village or settlement of under 20,000 people, they have a clear mechanism to get planning with a positive presumption on board, a streamlined process, a \u20ac25 fee and two years to do it. That is very fair, and no matter how long we debate this and look at it, it will be very difficult to get a measure as balanced as that. However, I appreciate that there are people in this House who think I am not going far enough. They almost have a zero-tolerance approach to Airbnb and short-term lets. There are also people here who think I have gone too far. That is healthy democracy. We can debate in the House but I have to make a call on it. I appreciate the sentiments from people along the way."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Cheann Comhairle I appreciate that Members can make their contributions, but I called Deputy \u00d3 Broin and the Minister replied, and then I got three other indications. Can we take it that, on this round, that would bring us to a conclusion on the matter? I ask Members to think of the rest of the amendments. Deputy Collins indicated, as did Deputy Hearne."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Rory Hearne I can speak on the next one."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Cheann Comhairle I am not ruling the Deputy out. I am just trying to get some balance. We will also hear from Deputy Conway-Walsh and then ask the Minister to respond before we put the question."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Collins I noted some of the comments that the Minister made. He said that he was not agreeing with all of the amendments. Is it just that he is not agreeing to this one? We know what the answer is going to be for the rest of them if he is not going to agree to this. He asked last week for co-operation. Amendments are a way forward. The Minister also said that none of us was telling him exactly what we wanted, but it is very clear. We know what we want. We know how rural tourism works. We are not fools; we are around a long time. In fairness, the Minister said he was a rural TD. I believe that this is not what he wants, but he is going to have to sell it because the Minister, Deputy Browne, cracked the whip. The Minister, Deputy Burke, referred to a good communication campaign. That is wrong and he cannot tell Members, the people in the Gallery or the audience - a lot of people have told me that they are watching this debate - that it means something. It was one of the worst Bills brought before the D\u00e1il in its history, or certainly in my ten years here. It was stopping and starting and starting and stopping and nobody ever knew what it meant. Campaign groups acting on behalf of people with short-term lets were given slight guarantees along the line but then those guarantees were thrown in the bin. Deadlines were missed. It was a complete hames from start to finish. I am very concerned that the Minister is not going to agree to any of these amendments. The Minister referred to a presumption of getting planning. What did he mean by that? Is he saying that someone who has been running an Airbnb for 15 years and been planning compliant all their lives is going to have somebody going into their property? That could happen because I can see a lot of this being one person reporting another. It happens quite a lot in ordinary planning, so why not with this. Does that mean that the planning official who is going to arrive will tell them not to worry and that even though what was compliant 15 years is not now, the official will turn a blind eye because a presumption of getting planning has come into place here? I do not think so. I was below in the committee room when the Bill was debated. This matter should have been debated there, and I called a vote in the House yesterday to ensure that we went back into the committee. Sadly, that proposal was voted against. Some people did not even stay for the vote even though they were there before the vote was called. The Minister must explain the presumption of planning. It is very important. If somebody has been successfully and safely operating something for many years, is a planning officer going to visit and say that, in the last ten years, there have been rules on disabled access, septic tanks, electrical compliance and whatever? The planners who were at the committee meetings that we were allowed to have told me that they should sign away and not to worry. That is ridiculous. I asked one if he would put it in writing but he said he could not. Obviously he could not because he knows that when you get a knock on the door and you are not planning compliant, you have to make things compliant. That is the concern and the crux of my wanting to speak about this amendment and others. It is a general situation. The Minister is saying that he does not know what we want but I am telling him. We did not get enough time to sit around that table. No matter how many times people sat around the table, there was a slight difference, a slight twist and a slight turn to the story and it all got changed again. The Government made a complete hames out of it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh I will be brief. The rationale for this amendment is obviously that we would have the data to inform policy. It may be needed to differentiate between rural, small, family properties and commercial properties. We do not want large commercial entities buying up properties in rural areas and making huge profits on the backs of the small operators who are already there and off the rural areas themselves. I am going to press this amendment because if that data is not available to us, we will not be able to make proper policy on this in future. It has been helpful to have this discussion, although it has been a bit long. However, the communication concerns me. The Minister says that we will have further communication in December, but by then it will not be long before Christmas. I ask the Minister to front-load the very accurate information. Some of the questions raised by Deputies, even ones the Minister has answered, ask for information that the small operators will need in order to be able to make proper decisions and judgments about their properties."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard O'Donoghue I will not delay us long but I want to talk about the presumption of planning and the Minister's statement that two years will be allowed in settlements of fewer than 20,000 people, which is fair enough. However, what if someone has two properties in one folio? One of them could be used under the rent-a-room scheme and could be rented for up to a certain amount. The second one, to make it planning compliant, may have seen a massive investment even if it is only a one-bedroom or two-bedroom apartment for Airbnb. Under the current regulations in a rural area, there was the standard septic tank, which was a six-person unit. Someone may then have to put in an eight- or ten-person unit. A person can rent a room in a household and earn up to \u20ac14,000 tax free but they might have a little apartment for holidaymakers that is earning way less than that and the Government still wants that person to spend \u20ac20,000 to \u20ac30,000 to regularise that apartment for a short-term stay. What I am trying to say is that some of these are no longer viable. This is what we are saying about a seven-year rule. I understand what the Minister is saying about how they were not planning compliant if they were running an operating like this, but people have been giving up rooms in their houses, or maybe a little flat adjacent or just slightly away from their house, for decades. They are not planning compliant but the Minister is talking about regularising it. It has to come down to viability. The Minister is so adamant about the two-year rule, but if it is not viable for property owners to do it even though they are helping their communities, will he introduce a grant system to make it sustainable for a person who has a short-term let in a rural area that needs the business it provides?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Cheann Comhairle That concludes the contributions. If the Minister answers any of the questions that were not answered previously, I can then put the question."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peter Burke I thank Members for their comments again. I take the point about the communications campaign. There was one in October 2025. I appreciate that a lot has changed since then, so we will have a significant campaign starting next week. I note that there is a website with all of the details of the changes. I will put on the record that I had a number of meetings with the Department and round-table discussions with what were essentially stakeholders in connection to this. Officials from the Departments of housing and enterprise attended the Irish Self-Catering Federation annual conferences on 11 November 2024 and 10 November 2025. F\u00e1ilte Ireland has done a lot of work with some of the platforms in terms of discussions. I wish to point something out in connection with some of the concerns that have been raised. People talk about protection. Deputy Collins says that he knows what he needs. I appreciate that. The Deputy wants to ensure that local rural operators can continue to offer accommodation and to ensure there are no unintended consequences for the tourism sector. However, as a Government, we also have to tackle the problem whereby we have significant swathes of Airbnbs that are increasing by a minimum of 10% per annum in cities that are only let out for very short periods during the month and where there is a huge problem with housing accommodation in those areas. Society cannot stand idly by and look at young couples trying to get housing and people trying to get long-term rental accommodation where there are significant housing pressures and we keep seeing the prevalence of Airbnbs increasing. Looking at the figures, in Dublin in particular we have nearly 13,000 units of hotel accommodation going through construction. Nationally, we have 38,780 currently in planning but two thirds of them are in Dublin. I need to tackle that issue too and I cannot look at one in isolation. That is why this strikes the best balance in providing a clear pathway so that I can look any rural operator in the eye, who is relying on an Airbnb, and say directly to them that for \u20ac25 they can register and they have two years. They have a presumption for positive planning. They have a streamlined process. They do not need maps. They do not need plans. They have a very straightforward process if they are not carrying out additional works for retention. In response to what Deputy O'Donoghue brought up - it is very clear in the planning statement - that if your property is not suitable for the long-term residential market, because it is an older property or it is in the curtilage of your own house or area, that those are the types of accommodation we want to grant planning permission for. I appreciate that there are challenges. People have to go through a streamlined process but it does provide a pathway, which is what I want to do. I want to try and ensure that we are not hindering rural accommodation. This is the best effort in doing that. In relation to the amendments before me, I am considering an amendment to the timeline, perhaps in the Seanad. I will give further consideration to that. I want to work with people. I appreciate that people are coming from different perspectives. I have more adjudication to do on that. I will listen to the debates on it. That is what I am here to do. I am not accepting the amendments before me but I may come back on some others. That is the best I can do at the moment."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard O'Donoghue What about the grants?"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin I move amendment No. 2: In page 6, between lines 25 and 26, to insert the following: \u201c4. The Minister shall within six months of the passing of this Act lay a report before both Houses of the Oireachtas setting out the operation of the register in urban areas with a population above 20,000 people including details on the number of properties refused access to the Failte Ireland register due to non-compliance with the Planning Policy Statement on Short-Term Letting and the number of properties being registered with full planning compliance.\u201d. I am not going to labour the point because we have dealt with some of the issues this amendment deals with in the earlier discussion but I want to make two points and then I will invite the Minister to clarify. The challenge with the figure of 20,000 is the desire that the Minister has stated about those areas under housing stress but by setting it at that threshold, there are areas that have just the same volume of housing stress that are on the other side of it. I am not surprised that in his deliberations with the tourism committee nobody has come up with an alternative because that is not its job. That is a planning matter. Deputy Gogarty is right: we are having lots of debates about the planning policy statement that was made law a week ago without any Oireachtas scrutiny. This is our only opportunity to address it. Most of us would have preferred, particularly those of us on the planning side, if we were not in here across from the Minister, Deputy Peter Burke, but in the housing committee with the planning Minister dealing with these issues and tabling amendments on them. There are better ways to do that than to have a completely arbitrary population cap. I have been arguing for some time in the context of the planning regulation of short-term letting, that using a metric not unlike what was originally put in place for rent pressure zones, where we have a certain number of indicators of housing stress and homelessness, would be a much better way because it would have given the Minister an evidential base. A population figure, whatever the number, is completely arbitrary and will leave people on the wrong side of it. This amendment, like the previous one, is to try and properly understand the operation of that. The Minister was right in his comments at the start of his response to the last amendment, and I am sure it is in his speaking notes for this one. In fact, we should not even be coming here asking him to put this into his legislation. That should not be the case, but we literally have no other opportunity to raise these fundamental issues, which is why we are doing it here. I repeat the point: the Cabinet \u2013 the Minister was there - agreed a planning policy statement a week ago without any public ,sectoral or Oireachtas scrutiny. If the Minister is not in a position to do it now, I would invite him to send a note to members of his committee. The Minister referenced fees for retention. The difficulty is there are very different fees for retention if it is a dwelling unit versus a commercial unit. There are some variances between local authorities but, in my local authority, for example, retention for a dwelling unit is \u20ac2.50 per square metre, but it is capped at \u20ac195, but there is no cap for a commercial unit, and it is \u20ac10.80. That is quite a difference. Again, just given the volume of confusion, any information whereby the Minister can provide clarity would be very useful. Does he know, for example, if the retention application is for a dwelling unit rather than a commercial unit? If he finds out during the course of this debate or in the Seanad debate, it would be very helpful if he could put it on the public record. My colleagues from Independent Ireland are raising these issues and raising them legitimately. If greater clarity could be provided, not just to the public and people applying, but to local authorities on what the retention process will be, that would be very helpful. Again, the form is very short. It is important that every local authority understands there is no requirement for architects, engineers or drawings. What we cannot have is the Department saying that, but then a local authority deciding to operate on a different basis. Some of what the Minister is saying is not in the circular. It is generally referenced on page 21 of the planning policy statement, but we need absolute clarity so there is consistency across the board. Those people who are providing legitimate tourism products in properties that would never and should never be in the long-term residential or rental market should have a clear, simple, low-cost process. At the same time, those operators - the Minister and I are agreed on the intention, if not how he is doing it - who should not be allowed to continue short-term letting are not able to avail of that. The last thing is kind of interesting, and I was not going to raise it, but the Minister said the advice was he could not have a seven-year grandfather clause in areas below 20,000 and not in areas above. My argument is I would not have had a grandfather clause at all; I would have just had a simplified retention. The Minister has a two-year process in the areas below 20,000, and not above in the regularisation. I have no issue with the regularisation process. My good friend to my left, Deputy Collins, misunderstood me during Second Stage. My view would have been 12 months, for example, but I would have been open to some other period. I do think a regularisation period for the small operators is very sensible. It is interesting that the legal advice did not say we could have a differential regime in the areas below and above for the transitional period, but we could for the grandfather clause. I am interested in hearing if the Minister has an explanation for that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard O'Donoghue I just want to follow on from that. I need to get clarity from the Minister on amendment No. 2. I seek clarification on the interpretation of planning permission when it comes to local authorities. The interpretation of planning authorities in Limerick, Cork, Galway or anywhere else is different. At the moment, any regularisation I have seen of planning applications means that people have got to regularise their septic tanks or percolation areas. A walkover survey of the site has to be done. I have yet to see a regularisation of a planning application where you do not need an engineer or drawings. What does a person need? The Minister might as well just sign it here now so it can be regularised if we do not need somebody to come in and regularise the application in the first place, regardless of whether a person is in an urban or rural area. What I want is a breakdown of the form the Minister will be giving to all local authorities, stating that they do not have to do a walkover survey, they do not have to comply with the current regulations for the environment for percolation and storm water and they do not have to comply with the current regulations for sightlines. The Minister is saying that the person walks in, says this is the building, here is the piece of paper and that they are looking for regularisation of what is there. How is the Government going to identify properties that are not deemed as short-term lets that the Government wants to make long-term? How is it going to do the paperwork and foresee this? Is it going to take everyone at their word? Things change. Every mapping system has changed. There is probably not one person in this Chamber who has not built something on their own properties and have questioned how many years it is there or if they have even got planning permission or need planning permission for it. The only thing that I look at planning permission at the moment is that a person qualifies and that a person is allowed to put 40 sq. m onto the rear of a house without planning permission. A person is allowed to put on 1.5 sq. m to the front, but cannot touch any other elevation of the property. Yet the Minister is able to say to me here that he has the sheet of paper that says a person does not have to get a walkover survey, an engineer's report or an architect's report. What does the Minister want? Why are we here? What exactly will the Government be giving on a format to the planning authorities? When it comes down to all guidelines, including the EPA guidelines, that are giving down to the local authorities which they look at to make an interpretation of planning, a format needs to be given, full and clear."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy George Lawlor The issue of presumption of planning is something that is going to invest so much confusion into this. If there was ever a Fianna F\u00e1il term - no disrespect to any Fianna F\u00e1il Members here - but the presumption of planning is something that would have been used over many years. No doubt in relation to the homeless issue if we combine all the cities, we would probably hit about 15,000 out of the 17,000 who are homeless in Ireland. Whether all those properties that we are discussing are going to return to facilitate local authorities or private landlords to put into the rental market is another question. I am really disappointed in one of the points. To get back to the presumption of planning and to allude to what Deputy O'Donoghue was talking about, these will now be deemed to be almost semi-commercial and commercial properties. Is Part M of the building regulations one of the regulations they will have to accede or adhere to to presume that they will get planning? We had discharge licences issued at various times over the years with differences in them. Is this going to change? Will this affect their ability to presume to have planning under the presumption of planning? How often has the Minister dealt with planners? One of the things that planners will certainly rebel against is a direction to say that a person has a presumption of planning. Regarding any planning in a local authority that I have ever dealt with, the planners are very serious operators who take their jobs very seriously and take adherence to planning law very seriously. The notion that there will be a presumption of planning is something that the Minister should look at again with my constituency colleague, the Minister, Deputy Browne. There is an old saying that those who like laws and sausages should not see them being made. That is the case when we come to the Minister's refusal to allow the enterprise committee's continuous scrutiny on this. What was the Minister afraid of? We have a very fine committee and committee Chair. We have discussed this seriously over recent times. However, the scrutiny that was required on this legislation has been abandoned such was the Government's rush. Regarding the Government's rush, and my colleague, Deputy Sheehan, alluded to it earlier, the Minister said that he has a very clear pathway, but he does not have a very clear Bill. I will give the Minister an example of a few of the drafting errors that we discussed. Section 27F(1)(b)(i) refers to refusals under section 27(3)b or section 27(3)(c)(i). They do not exist in the new section 27. Refusals are made under section 27(4) and section 27(5)(a). As drafted, refusing a new registration may not be an appealable decision. Another example is that section 27F(4)(b)(iii) also refers to a non-existent section - section 27(3)(a). On section 47H(9) and (10), Part 53, the cross references are each one subsection out. Notices are set to be served under subsection (5) or subsection (6) and they served under subsections (6) and (7). The appeal period is said to be in subsection (7), but it is in subsection (8). Section 47H(10) says a decision takes affect only if confirmed on appeal under subsection (7) or on summary application under subsection (8). Those are subsections (8) and (9). Read literally, no sanction on a platform could ever take effect. I have numerous drafting errors here in this Bill. This is what rushing legislation gets the Minister. He is more experienced here than I am. There are 71 amendments, none of which is a ministerial amendment correcting drafting errors. If it goes through, the attached list of errors makes key provisions unintelligible or unworkable. How serious is this in terms of legislation and law? It is one of the more serious Bills to come before this House in recent times with huge implications for many people. There are huge life-changing implications for people who have been involved in self-catering. We remember the ads of self-catering Ireland back in the day. I am old enough to remember great, wonderful, flowery ads that were made by Discover Ireland where self-catering was a wonderful thing to be part of. Yet we are not able to make law that is accurate or draft law that is accurate. I have ten or a dozen drafting errors in this Bill that I would like the Minister to comment on. The notion that we have 71 amendments and none of them is a ministerial amendment to correct drafting errors is extremely serious and speaks to the lack of intent in pushing this Bill through. I ask the Minister to comment on that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Rory Hearne The Minister did not come back to me in relation to my question. I have since followed it up further. There are some pretty profound contradictions between what is set out here in the Bill, the planning statement upon which it is based and the housing plan. I will discuss a contradiction between what the Minister just said and what is set out in the national planning statement. If we look at Delivering Homes, Building Communities, which is the Government's national housing plan, it says very clearly that: \"Planning permission for new short-term lets will be generally precluded in cities and large towns...\" The definition of a large town under the guidelines for planning authorities on sustainable and compact settlements is towns with a population of 5,000 and greater. The Minister maybe can provide clarity if that is not the case. Otherwise, this Bill and the Government's planning statement are contradicting what the national housing plan says. Has the Government ripped up the national housing plan? Is that no longer functioning? The Minister can maybe explain what is going on in relation to that. I want to get real clarity about this. Under the Bill and the planning statement that is underpinning it, if a person has a short-term let in a rural area or a town under 20,000 then he or she will have two years to regularise planning or apply for planning permission. The Minister said that in rural areas and towns under 20,000 there is going to be a presumption of positive planning. That means that a person will get planning permission. What the Minister is saying very clearly is that for rural areas and towns under 20,000, including our Gaeltacht areas, there will be no restrictions on short-term lets. Why this is now clear to me is because it says it in the planning statement. The planning statement is also contradicting itself. As the Minister said earlier, the planning statement states: The core objective of the [short-term letting] reforms is to assist with bringing a proportion of the existing houses and apartments in the 25 largest cities and towns with a population above the identified threshold of 20,000 persons ... that are currently being used for [short-term letting] purposes, back into long-term rental or the housing sales market ... The Minister said there is \"a presumption for positive planning\" for areas with a population of under 25,000. Sinn F\u00e9in has nothing to worry about. There are no restrictions coming in for rural or Gaeltacht areas or places with a population of under 25,000. Will the Minister make that very clear? He just said there will be \"a presumption for positive planning\". The national planning statement, as set out by the Minister for housing, goes on to refer to \"areas outside of the 25 largest settlements, where it is an objective of Government policy to support local economies and the sustainable development of rural and regional areas \". It continues: In these areas, where suitable in all other respects from a planning perspective, the use of residential properties ... may be considered to be acceptable [that is not a presumption of positive planning]. However, there may be circumstances which may justify a proposal being refused permission by a planning authority on the basis of provisions included within a statutory plan ... Can the Minister clarify whether areas with a population of under 20,000 will be granted planning permission based, as he said, on \"a presumption for positive planning\"? Deputy \u00d3 Broin named some of the towns to which I will refer. They include Maynooth, Tullamore, Killarney, Midleton, Mallow, Arklow, Enfield, Kildare, Newcastle, Kilcock, Wicklow, Ashbourne, Leixlip, Clonmel and Malahide. There will be no restrictions in all of those towns, or maybe - if they are areas of housing need - there could be planning restrictions. I would appreciate a reply from the Minister."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Conor Sheehan I find it regrettable that the Government decided to raise the population cap from 10,000 to 20,000. One of the reasons I thought it would have been better to leave it at 10,000 was due to the long list of relatively well populated towns that my colleague, Deputy Hearne, listed. I support the amendment because legislation is only as strong as its enforcement. We have seen previous attempts to deal with this issue fail. The Eoghan Murphy rules failed because there was no mechanism by which they could be properly enforced. In urban areas with a population above 20,000 people, it is entirely reasonable that we would be furnished with data. That is why I am so supportive of the amendment. We need to know, for example, how many properties will be refused access to the register because they are not compliant with planning. We will then need to know, subsequent to that, how many were compliant. It is important that we, as a Legislature, are given the tools to be able to properly measure and quantify these things. I somehow doubt that this will be the last Bill the House will ever discuss in terms of regulating short-term lets."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Healy-Rae We are an hour and a half into 71 amendments, and we are on amendment No. 2. I welcome that the Minister is present. Sensible people see nothing wrong with a register. People representing organisations see nothing wrong with a register. I sought a three-month period for people to register in an orderly fashion. The Minister said there would be one month. I ask the Minister to consider a compromise, such as two months. That would be welcome and a positive move. The Minister has trivialised matters. When he speaks about planning, he must remember that when he says people have to go for planning, words such as \"amnesty\" were incorrectly used during this debate. There is no amnesty. People will have to apply for planning and this will cause a big problem. People will have to put up planning notices. Those who might want to object will have the right to do so. If there is a river at the back of an existing property, that could be deemed to be a potential flood plain which would mean that a presumption of planning would not be granted. Roads engineers will be involved. If a septic tank is involved, a site assessment will be required. The Taoiseach did the same thing, namely, trivialised the planning issue. Planning is a big elephant in the room for existing operators, even people who have been at this for over seven years, because a planning notice is a planning notice. It has to go in a newspaper. People can say that the process will be streamlined or simplified, but it is still open to all of the objections and problems that a planning application can cause. If people have read the national planning statement, they will see the problem and the difficulties with what is being proposed here. The quicker we can move on to voting and getting into what I would call the meatier amendments, the better. We have dealt with the issue of the timeframe sensibly and the Minister has shown an indication, which I appreciate, that he will deal with that. I have to correct the record of the D\u00e1il. Last week, we had a debate on whether we are in favour of the Bill being rushed. People had concerns about that. I was one of the ten people who voted against it quite simply because I believe it is being rushed. I was accused of missing a vote here yesterday. I missed nothing here yesterday. I was officially paired with a Minister who needed to not be here and that is where my vote was yesterday. It was facilitating a working Minister. I will make no apology to the House for facilitating a person who needs to be absent. The quicker we can deal with the amendments, the better. The organisations we are working for will thank us for doing so."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Collins Regardless of what side people are speaking from, there is still a lot of confusion about the presumption of getting planning. The Minister knows as well as I do that the proper place to iron this out was during pre-legislative scrutiny through the committee. The Minister refused that. He is railroading the Bill through the House and is giving out. He has said we will communicate after everything has been signed, sealed and delivered by the Minister, Deputy Browne, or whoever wants to impose these planning guidelines on the people of rural Ireland. I live in a scenic landscape. The Minister has no idea how difficult it is for people to get planning permission there. Every God-damn thing is put in front of them. I know the paperwork alone has cost some people \u20ac15,000 or \u20ac20,000 for a simple application for planning, not including any of the work that needs to be carried out afterwards. I will walk away from here delighted with myself. The Minister said a presumption of planning is very clear. He put that in writing. What does that mean? If a planner comes to a house or home and has to fill out a form on 1 December, and asks whether the owner does or does not have planning and they say they do not, what is the next step? Is the Minister saying they have no more to worry about and it is game over? Is he saying that somebody will knock on the door but will be very nice to them? They might be very nice, but they might cost the person \u20ac150,000 before they leave. The Minister can laugh, but they are the facts. If the septic tank is not up to standard, it will not cost \u20ac2,000 or \u20ac3,000 to rectify that. Deputy O'Donoghue spoke about a grant system. That is the least the Minister should have done to make sure that people who are providing short-term lets and Airbnb accommodation are not put out of business. The Minister rushed the Bill and would not allow pre-legislative scrutiny. He can say what he wants, but he did not allow it. The Bill should have been before the committee this week or a month ago and we should have been given time to iron out the difficulties. There was a poor communication campaign. The Minister has now said he will not support any of the amendments. I do not know why we are putting all of our time into this whole process because the Minister is railroading the Bill. The date for registration will be 1 December. Am I correct in saying that, or has the Minister said the date may instead be 1 January or 1 February? Is he sticking to the old rule? We genuinely do not know. We have the right to ask. It is unfortunate that we are not getting to the other amendments, but the Minister will reject them anyway. The point is that people have a right to know what will lie ahead of them in two years' time. That is basically the bottom line. Is the Minister saying the planners are going to be clearly instructed that they should not take the guidelines that are there at the moment into account or is he saying differently? I would like the Minister to give us absolute clarity here tonight because thousands of people are listening and they are depending on a tourism Minister to deliver for the people that provide great tourism. That is not happening here at the moment. It is only delivering confusion. The Minister is going to hobble away over this, fall at a few fences and jump a few more and get it down to a point that we will have a chat and he will communicate with them afterwards. That is not good enough. The communication should be now before this is signed into law."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Nicholas Gogarty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul Nicholas Gogarty This is the problem with not having this discussed at the committee, which allows for populist politics where people put stuff on Report Stage after having a good debate that the Minister is not supporting on Committee Stage. There is still scope on Committee Stage to put stuff through, see that it is not workable from a technical point of view and then it does not come back up on Report Stage. However, we now have a lot of discussions. We are on amendment No. 2. Again, in principle I support it because there is no harm having reporting within a set time. However, that the first recommended amendment for grouping is amendment No. 6, which is to be taken with amendment No. 48. They relate to totally separate sections of the Bill. Amendments Nos. 1 to 5, inclusive, all propose changes between lines 25 and 26. I ask Members to excuse my ignorance on this, but if it is possible for the proposers to ask for amendments Nos. 3 to 5, inclusive to be grouped this amendment, it would help move on the discussion, given the limited timescale. In any event, I support this amendment on the principle for which it is set down."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Danny Healy-Rae If somebody who has been doing short-term letting for many years does eventually apply for planning to retain what they have been doing for more than seven years and they are refused for some reason, is that the end of them or can they continue as they were doing for the seven years and more? If they are refused planning permission, does that mean they will have to cease at that point? I need an answer to that question."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peter Burke I thank Deputies again for their contributions. I will read the technical response to the amendment first. While the policy objective of the amendment is understood, the drafting is technically incorrect and could give rise to legal operational uncertainty. The EU short-term rental regulation establishes a harmonised registration system across the Single Market. The regulation provides that registration procedures operate on the basis of declarations made by hosts in Article 4(3)(a). It further requires member states to ensure that registration procedures are available online and allow for automatic and immediate issuance of a registration number. Ireland's approach reflects these requirements. Under the proposed system, hosts register by providing the information required under the regulation and declaring that they are authorised to provide short-term rental accommodation services. In Ireland, the authorisation is determined by compliance with the planning code. Upon registration, a registration number will be issued immediately by F\u00e1ilte Ireland, as required under EU law. F\u00e1ilte Ireland will not refuse access to the register, as it may only verify information after the registration number has been issued. This reflects the framework established by the EU regulation, which is designed to ensure that no interruption to the provision of accommodation services within the Single Market while providing robust verification and enforcement mechanisms. During verification, F\u00e1ilte Ireland will share the relevant registration data including the host's details, property address and eircode, with the relevant local authority. The Bill provides for data sharing between F\u00e1ilte Ireland and local authorities to facilitate verification and compliance activities. The local authority will confirm whether the property has the necessary planning permission in place. Where it is established that the necessary planning permission is not in place, F\u00e1ilte Ireland may suspend the registration number, thereby preventing the operator from lawfully accessing the market. F\u00e1ilte Ireland may also issue the relevant order to online short-term rental platforms requiring the removal of listings associated within the property. A number of issues have been raised. Let me reiterate the provisions in relation to those who are operating in areas under the 20,000-population threshold and are over seven years in operation. Deputy Hearne was quoting two separate mechanisms for the 20,000-population threshold. There are those over seven years, and there are those who are operating for less than seven years who have to apply for planning. They are similar criteria, but not the exact same. If someone operating for over seven years is applying for planning permission, the form is already there. The local authorities have had the fast-track administrative application form since last September to go through that process. As I have said, no detailed maps or plans are required where no significant work is needed for the retention process. It is a strict, straightforward process. Hosts must just apply through the retention process. It is \u20ac25 to register with F\u00e1ilte Ireland and there are two years to go through that process. I am a former planning Minister and I was eight years on a local authority in a rural area. I know there are risks with everything in life. However, when the national planning policy statement is issued, if any planning authority's development plans and guidelines does not comply or contradicts it, under the new structure, it must come back and rectify it with local government within two months. It is a very strong tool to issue the presumption to grant planning permission for. The message has gone out very clearly from the Government. We have an express administrative process, and we have a presumption to grant planning permission. I cannot be clearer on that. If there is an extreme issue, an extreme risk or something badly wrong, we all have to be honest that the reality is that planning authorities have to do their work too. We cannot take that away but the hosts do have to go through the process, and they have time on their side. We are not asking anyone to spend \u20ac100,000 or anything like it. I know how difficult it is in rural Ireland for accommodation, particularly for the tourism sector, which is very badly needed. I absolutely understand that. Deputy \u00d3 Broin raised a number of points. In relation to RPZs, the whole country is a rental pressure zone right now, so RPZs are not giving me any mechanism whereby I can protect a small rural operator that is needed versus someone in a larger populated area. Critically, it is not providing me an agile quick mechanism. That is the key issue. When I am coming forward with a metric, though people may argue that it is very arbitrary and there are other towns, like Maynooth that the Deputy referenced that should be in it, I appreciate that, but perfection is the enemy of the good. I cannot micromanage to get the perfect answer everywhere. My number one job is to ensure that I bring in the greatest number of short-term lets into the long-term rental market as quickly as possible, particularly in those 25 towns and cities where housing pressure is most acute. I am not saying there is not housing pressure outside of them, but those are the areas where it is most acute. That is the mechanism I have employed. From the Attorney General's advice regarding the seven years, this is a long-standing planning position in relation to retention. The reason I can differentiate with two years is because I am changing the law. I am bringing forward a register, and I am changing the law for those two years on the register. I am establishing a new law for that. I can provide the Deputy with a note on that. There are two different things; one is a judicial precedent meaning I cannot differentiate between different people, but when I am creating a law there is a separate mechanism to do that. Regarding the points raised by Deputy Lawlor, I am fully confident there are no mistakes in the Bill. There are a number of laws that it is intertwining with, particularly with the EU regulation. We have gone through a lot of quality assurance with the Bill. I can see where the Deputy is coming from and why he might think that is the case. I am happy to get the officials to go through the references he read out and explain exactly what is their intention. We have had long enough to go through this and I am very happy that the Bill is in a good position. There is another point I want to make."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin What is the position regarding the fees? Are they commercial or residential?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peter Burke The fee is \u20ac10.80 per square metre."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin Is it a commercial retention fee that will be charged?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peter Burke Yes, it is a commercial fee. I am trying to regain my train of thought. There was another issue I wanted to address."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Healy-Rae I asked about registrations."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peter Burke I can look at an amendment on registrations. I am open to working with colleagues in relation to the timeframe. I will come back to that. I want to ensure the intention of the Bill is carried through. The point I was going to make was that I want to put on record that I really value the work of the enterprise committee. I know more than most what it does. I engage with the members regularly to go through issues of the day and I appear before the committee when the members ask me to do so. I have a very good relationship with the Cathaoirleach and all the members. This Bill has been there for a significant period. I do not mean to be disingenuous in any way about this. I absolutely acknowledge that pre-legislative scrutiny began in October 2025. The Government originally came forward with a population threshold of 10,000 before increasing it to 20,000. I am limited in terms of the control I can give to the enterprise committee. I am waiting for another Department to come forward with the national planning policy. It is the right and prerogative of the enterprise committee to say it will not go forward with a pre-legislative scrutiny report until it gets sight of that document. I have other pressures to work through. It is very clear in the handbook that, in essence, we do not want to delay legislation. That is a key point. This Bill has been around for a long time. There are housing units that I want to get back into the long-term rental market as quickly as possible in the 25 towns that are under significant pressure. I also want to ensure we achieve a balance in protecting rural areas. That is what I have endeavoured to do in this work. I absolutely appreciate and fully respect the perspectives people have brought forward."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Rory Hearne I would like clarity on a particular point. The Minister's comment on presumption of positive planning was specifically in relation to properties operating for seven years or more in towns with a population under 20,000. If a property owner has been operating for less than seven years or is newly applying for planning permissions, restrictions will apply in areas of housing need. Why then does the Minister continue to say that his aim is to get housing back in the 25 towns? Why is it not also his aim to get housing back in towns with a population smaller than 20,000? Will he clarify that there will be limitations and that in terms of planning, there will not be a presumption in favour in towns under 20,000?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peter Burke It is clearly outlined on page 19 of the planning policy statement the position regarding operators not in compliance with the law and operating for less than seven years. The parameters within which they can be considered for the granting of planning permission are set out. There are a number of conditions attached. The housing need and demand assessment is one of the key factors, depending on housing pressures in those areas. The local authorities will have to make an adjudication on that. The information is on page 19 of the planning statement."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin I move amendment No. 3: In page 6, between lines 25 and 26, to insert the following: \" 4. The Minister shall within six months of the passing of this Act lay a report before both Houses of the Oireachtas setting out the enforcement activity of F\u00e1ilte Ireland and planning authorities with respect to non-compliance with the registration and planning requirements of the legislation and accompanying planning policy statement, including an assessment of the staffing requirements involved in the compliance related to the Short-Term Letting Regulations.\". Much of how this regime works and whether it is successful or not will depend on the operation of the enforcement, some of the detail of which the Minister just gave us, and the resourcing for both F\u00e1ilte Ireland and the local authorities. From my conversations with people concerned about the lack of long-term homes in their communities, both urban and rural, and the small, family-based tourism operators who hope to be able to continue to operate their products, this is one of the areas they least understand. I invite the Minister, in his response to my questions and comments, to clarify in more detail how the enforcement will work and how it will be resourced. The logic of this amendment is to allow us to track that. The Minister clarified one of the queries I had when he said that everybody who applies from 1 December will get their registration number and that the process of verification and adjudication will take place after that. I will concentrate for a moment on the areas above a population threshold of 20,000 because they involve the people for whom there is meant to be a tougher regime unless they are availing of the seven-year grandfather clause. On the one hand, they cannot be on the register without demonstrating planning compliance but the Minister is telling us that, initially, they will get a registration number. I assume that they will be on the register during that period. There will then be a process of trying to verify with the local authority whether they are planning compliant. We know the overwhelming majority currently are not compliant. What kinds of conversations have the Minister's officials had with F\u00e1ilte Ireland on the resourcing that will be required specifically for that cohort? This will be quite an onerous task in that initial period. If we imagine a scenario where all those people apply to get on the register - judging by what happened with Eoghan Murphy's regulations in 2019, that is not guaranteed, but there are many thousands of such properties - how long is that likely to take and has there been an assessment of the resourcing requirements? It will put a lot of stress on the local authorities in those areas to be asked to address that matter. These are the same local authorities whose representatives told us some years ago, when the Minister was a Minister of State at the Department of housing with responsibility for planning, that they were already chronically under-resourced in terms of their planning capacity. They now have to deal with new areas of enforcement, including free-standing residential extensions and other exempted developments. I am keen to know how that will operate. I am also keen to understand because, again, it is relevant to the amendment in terms of resourcing, in the case of a short-term letting operator in a population area above 20,000 who is then found not to be planning compliant - whether a week, a month, six months or a year later; we are not sure how long it will be - how will the enforcement from F\u00e1ilte Ireland operate at that point in terms of its resourcing and timelines? A lot of our conversation is focused on the people who own the properties but it is really important for us to mention that in the middle of all of this, there is a very large and very profitable international corporation that, for a decade, which is as long as I have been in this House, has been facilitating and profiting from the widespread breach of our planning system. I refer, of course, to Airbnb. It is not the only agency that is knowingly facilitating and profiting from the breaking of the State's planning laws but it certainly is the most successful and aggressive in terms of its lobbying operations. How will the enforcement of requests to remove advertisements for short-term letting operate in real time? I have read the legislation but I do not know it as well as do the members of the enterprise committee. As the Minister knows from his time both as a councillor and in the Department of housing, enforcement is often where these rules fall down because it is slow and cumbersome and it allows people to avoid and evade, in many cases for long periods. Has there been any assessment within the Department as to how long enforcement will take in the case of operators in areas with a population above 20,000? What will happen when somebody applies to go on the register who is not planning compliant but has submitted a retention application to the local authority and the latter is taking longer than the statutory time period to process that application? The Minister may not be able to answer my last question. Has there been any conversation between his Department, F\u00e1ilte Ireland, the Minister for housing, Deputy Browne, and his Department and the County and City Management Association, CCMA, as to what the resourcing requirements will be for the local authorities to process all these planning and retention applications?"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Short-Term Letting and Tourism Bill 2026: Committee and Remaining Stages"}]}}]},"contextDate":"2026-11-11"},{"debateRecord":{"house":{"showAs":"27th Seanad","committeeCode":"","houseCode":"seanad","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/house\/seanad\/27","chamberType":"house","houseNo":"27"},"chamber":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/def\/house\/seanad","showAs":"Seanad \u00c9ireann"},"lastUpdated":"2026-11-11T10:50:46+00:00","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-11-10\/debate\/main","formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-11-10\/debate\/mul@\/main.xml"},"pdf":null},"date":"2026-11-10","counts":{"contributorCount":37,"divisionCount":0,"debateSectionCount":11,"questionCount":0,"billCount":1},"debateType":"debate","debateSections":[{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_2","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Teachtaireachta\u00ed \u00f3n D\u00e1il - Messages from D\u00e1il","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I have received the following message from D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann. D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann passed the Strategic Lawsuits against Public Participation Bill 2026 on 4 November 2026, to which the agreement of Seanad \u00c9ireann is desired. D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann passed the Dublin Transport Authority (Amendment) Bill 2026 on 4 November 2026, to which the agreement of Seanad \u00c9ireann is desired."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Teachtaireachta\u00ed \u00f3n D\u00e1il - Messages from D\u00e1il"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_3","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Teachtaireacht \u00f3 Chomhchoiste - Message from Joint Committee","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach The Joint Committee on Enterprise, Tourism and Employment has completed its consideration of the following regulations in draft: The Protection of Young Persons (Employment in Food and Beverage Services Sector) Regulations 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Teachtaireacht \u00f3 Chomhchoiste - Message from Joint Committee"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_4","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Gn\u00f3 an tSeanaid - Business of Seanad","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_4","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I welcome to the Visitor's Gallery guests of the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien. The Portmarnock Active Retirement Association in Dublin is most welcome to Seanad \u00c9ireann. I thank them for being here today. I have received notice from the following Senators that they propose to raise the following matters: Senators Sarah O'Reilly, Robbie Gallagher and Pauline Tully - The need for the Minister for Children, Disability and Equality to make a statement on the provision of funding for Little Wonders Early Intervention Centre, Castleblayney, County Monaghan. Senator Nessa Cosgrove - The need for the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine to make a statement on the introduction of a \u20ac200 submission fee for forestry appeals. Senator Martin Conway - The need for the Minister for Transport to provide an update on closures of the Ennis to Limerick railway line due to flooding at Ballycar, Newmarket-on-Fergus, County Clare. Senator Fiona O'Loughlin - The need for the Minister for Culture, Communications and Sport to make a statement on the provision of funding for the development of a public swimming pool for Newbridge, County Kildare. The matters raised by the Senators are suitable for discussion and I have selected Senators Sarah O'Reilly, Robbie Gallagher and Pauline Tully, who are sharing their time, Senators Nessa Cosgrove, Martin Conway and Fiona O'Loughlin and they will be taken now."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Gn\u00f3 an tSeanaid - Business of Seanad"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_5","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":false,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_5","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_6","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Disability Services","counts":{"speechCount":16,"speakerCount":6},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_5","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_5","showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_6","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robbie Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sarah O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pauline Tully","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niall Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niall-Collins.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Niall-Collins.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach The Minister of State, Deputy Collins, is welcome to the House. The Members of Seanad \u00c9ireann extend their deepest sympathies on the sad passing of the former Minister, Mr. Gerry Collins. It is great to see the family tradition of service to the State which has been quite formidable in terms of the Collins family since the first days of the State. We again express our deepest sympathies to him on the sad passing of the former Minister, Mr. Collins. Unusually enough, we have a Commencement matter with three Senators. It is normally only four minutes in total, but we will allow a little attitude on this one. I am going to go in alphabetical order, if the Senators do not mind, in terms of whom I call. I call Senator Gallagher."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robbie Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Robbie Gallagher The Minister of State is very welcome to the Chamber and I echo the Cathaoirleach's sentiments. Our thoughts and condolences are with him and his family on the passing of the former Minister, Mr. Gerry Collins. Little Wonders childcare facility, which is based in Castleblayney, is a magnificent service. It is a vital service, and it is one that both the children and the parents of those 25 special children who use the service cannot speak highly enough. It is magnificent and critical, and it is essential that it continues. There has been an issue for a period of time due to a lack of funding for this particular service, and I, along with Claire Callan, have met with HSE officials on a number of occasions with the view to find a resolution to that. The last meeting took place last Friday week where a proposal was agreed and then forwarded to the HSE for approval a week yesterday. It is essential that this service continues. It is vital for the children and parents. The service provided by Claire and her team is magnificent. The one message I ask the Minister of State to take back to the Minister this afternoon is that it is essential that the proposal that has now been agreed and put forward is signed off by HSE management without delay because at the moment there is a question mark over that service. That is simply not fair on the children, the parents of those children and Claire and her team at Little Wonders as well. I ask that he pass that message on."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sarah O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Sarah O'Reilly I thank the Minister of State for coming in for this very important debate. The Government's disability strategy commits to better disability services for children. Disability services in Cavan and Monaghan are practically non-existent. There is a gap and that gap has been filled by one service provider for two counties. Little Wonders is providing support to 25 children, and there are 47 other families on the waiting list, so why is the only alternative service supporting families being squeezed out of business by the HSE? Claire Callan is a behavioural therapist who is doing incredible work through Little Wonders, but she is being buried in paperwork and unnecessary nitpicking. She has been given wrong forms and bad advice and it is obvious the HSE is not working with her. In fact, it seems like it is working against her by times. There are 47 families on a waiting list for this service and there are families depending on it, and now Claire is being left desperately trying to keep the doors open. This is not an unexpected funding difficulty. The HSE has known about this for two years. Parents like Ciara, Aoife, Kathleen and Bernie are being forced to bare their souls to the media to keep a vital service in place for their children and families. The most vulnerable are being forced to beg for scraps from the HSE table again as it moves the goalposts on the provider. The programme for Government and the budget state that alternative respite should be provided by the HSE. I need to know why there is no alternative respite provided by the HSE in Cavan and only one in Monaghan that is now at risk of closure. Little Wonders is providing the alternative respite that the HSE is not or will not provide, yet it will not support a woman who is providing it. The HSE would do well to learn from Claire Callan and her team and work with her. The respite is a lifeline to many of the families. Claire Callan needs sustainable funding to continue delivering this service to local people in Castleblayney. When will that funding be in place?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pauline Tully","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Pauline Tully I attended a meeting a few weeks ago with parents of children who attend the Little Wonders service, along with Senator Gallagher and a few of my party colleagues. They are absolutely distraught because this service provides an after-school and a Saturday club for children with quite complex disabilities. In fact, some of the parents said this service takes children that no other service wants to take. What Claire Callan and her staff have done is they have helped children who are non-verbal or pre-verbal to speak. They have worked on behavioural issues. Not only are they a great support to the children who attend the service, but they also support the children's families in so many ways. It is unbelievable that a service like this is not being supported by the HSE. Little Wonders has had a service level agreement with the HSE since 2019, but there has been no increase in fees since that date. I cannot think of anything else that has not gone up in cost in the seven years that have passed since then. Claire Callan's Little Wonders service has been operating at a considerable loss for years. Ms Callan herself has been supporting the service personally, which should not be the case. It is absolutely outrageous that it is the case. Not only should this service be properly supported, but it should be held up as an example of how services should work and the importance of early intervention. Meetings have been ongoing between Claire Callan and the HSE for years. She has highlighted this issue, has been asked for information and has been given an indication that a fee increase was forthcoming, only to go back to another meeting and be asked for other information or to submit information she had already submitted. She feels she has been led up the garden path and gaslit on these issues, and she has had enough. She had to inform parents that she was closing her service at Christmas. The HSE has a few weeks to address this issue and increase the fee to what it should be. Other service providers are providing alternative respite for a much higher fee, up to three times as much as Claire Callan receives for her Little Wonders service."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niall Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niall-Collins.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Niall-Collins.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine (Deputy Niall Collins) I thank Senators Sarah O'Reilly, Gallagher and Tully for raising this important issue and offering the opportunity to respond. The HSE advises that Klaine Childcare Limited, which trades as Little Wonders Early Intervention Centre, is a private provider funded through a HSE service arrangement contract to deliver alternative respite services to children in the Monaghan area. Funding to support children with complex needs through Klaine Childcare Limited was originally secured by Cavan and Monaghan disability services through the HSE national alternative respite funding stream, with the support of the Monaghan children's disability service manager. Throughout 2025, the HSE disability services manager and the Monaghan children's disability network team manager met frequently with Klaine Childcare Limited to provide support and guidance in preparing a robust business case for additional funding. In the past week, the HSE received a final version of the costings for additional funding. HSE Cavan and Monaghan disability services are reviewing all available options to support this valued service. The Government recognises the important support role that respite can have for those who receive it and is committed to expanding respite services, as per the programme for Government. About 7,500 people avail periodically of centre-based respite, with significant regional disparities in access to the service and substantial unmet need overall. As set out in the HSE national service plan 2026, budget 2026 provided an additional \u20ac25 million for respite services, which aims to ensure equitable access across regions through a mix of centre-based, in-home, overnight and alternative respite options. This is expected to support an estimated 10,000 additional overnight respite sessions and 25,000 additional day respite sessions, bringing the full-year targets to 175,000 overnight sessions and 91,000 day-only sessions. The HSE anticipates that in the region of 500 more children and adults with a disability will receive respite sessions, centre-based and alternative, within their community in 2026. Budget 2027 delivered significant progress for disabled children and adults, bringing the budget for disability services to over \u20ac4 billion for the first time. This will support the HSE to provide a range of community services and supports to enable people with disabilities to live a life of their choosing. This includes an additional \u20ac15 million for respite services, providing for the full-year cost of 2026 activity and allowing for the expansion of services in 2027. Subject to the finalisation of the HSE's national service plan 2027, this is expected to support approximately an additional 14,700 respite sessions. The HSE is in the process of developing its national service plan for 2027. This will aim to ensure continued focus on building equitable access across regions, with a mix of centre-based, in-home, overnight and alternative respite options being funded and developed throughout 2027."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Acting Chairperson (Senator Chris Andrews) I welcome the guest of Senator Craughwell, Sir Jeremy Quin. He is very welcome to the House. I hope he enjoys his visit. I also extend my condolences to the Minister of State on the loss of Gerry Collins. He and my dad soldiered together. He was highly thought of."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niall Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niall-Collins.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Niall-Collins.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Niall Collins Thank you."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Acting Chairperson (Senator Chris Andrews) We only have one minute remaining for this Commencement matter. What is the best way to divide the time? Will I give each Senator 20 seconds?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robbie Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Robbie Gallagher Yes, that is fine."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pauline Tully","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Pauline Tully Can we have a minute each?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robbie Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Robbie Gallagher The Acting Chairperson can start counting the 20 seconds about one minute after I have started."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Acting Chairperson (Senator Chris Andrews) Senator Gallagher's time is up now."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robbie Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Robbie Gallagher Our message is clear. It is essential the agreed proposal, which has been put forward to HSE management for sign-off, is done without delay so that the parents, children and, indeed, Claire Callan and her wonderful team at Little Wonders have security of service going forward."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sarah O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Sarah O'Reilly The Minister of State is after rambling on about reviewing options and increased respite services. This will decrease respite services. The need has been identified. The HSE is not fulfilling that need, but it needs to support the person who is fulfilling it. I have yet to get a commitment from the Minister of State that the funding will be in place for this important service in Castleblayney. Reviewing options is cold comfort to families."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pauline Tully","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Pauline Tully This service needs to be saved, and the only way that can be done is for the money to be immediately pledged to it. It is an important service for many families. There are 25 children using this service at the moment, and many others are on the waiting list. It is a vital service that goes beyond any other service being offered. It is based in Castleblayney, but a wide range of families in the region avail of it. It stands out on its own and it has to be saved. Alternatives are not an option."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niall Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niall-Collins.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Niall-Collins.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Niall Collins I thank all the Senators for raising this important issue. I understand the concern that is being expressed on behalf of the service users and their parents. I will relay the sentiments expressed today to the Minister for Health, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, who has overall responsibility for the HSE. I reiterate the point that the HSE is working on its service delivery plan. More money has been made available. I do not see any reason this should not work out successfully."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Disability Services"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_7","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Forestry Sector","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_5","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_5","showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_7","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niall Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niall-Collins.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Niall-Collins.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Nessa Cosgrove I also pass on my condolences to the Minister of State. My Commencement matter concerns County Leitrim, which is the most afforested county in Ireland, with over 20% of the county under plantation. County Leitrim has already done more than its fair share. It has reached the Government's target of 18% of a county's land being under plantation by 2050, and it is well above the national average of 11.5%. Save Leitrim is an environmental, non-governmental organisation that was formed in 2018 out of a concern about the heavy plantation of County Leitrim, largely with non-native Sitka spruce. I have raised this issue many times in the Chamber. It was and is having a disproportionate impact on the local environment and socio-economic life of the county. It is a fantastic group. I have many good friends who are members of this group. It is keen to emphasise that it is not anti-tree in any shape or form. It is actually pro-tree but it knows the right tree must go in the right area. Sitka plantations, when allowed to dominate an environment, create what has been described as a green wall. We saw how these green walls stood up to the ravages of storms Darragh and \u00c9owyn over the winters of 2024 and 2025, when 27,400 hectares of timber was toppled, causing road blockages and power cuts that lasted for weeks. In the peaty, wet soil of Leitrim, these shallow-rooted non-native trees fell - the analogy was they fell like ten-pin bowling. For those who said Save Leitrim's concern was unfounded, these two storms in such a short timeframe proved the wrong trees were planted in the wrong place, making it not only an environmental and social but also an economic disaster. I will get to the point of the Commencement matter now. The 2014 Forestry Act was actioned in 2017. This established the forestry appeals panel, an independent body that could hear and judge appeals against a decision made by the Department. Initially, there was no fee for submitting an appeal. Fees were introduced by way of two statutory instruments on 6 October 2020. One was for the landowner making an application to plant trees and the other was for any other person wishing to appeal that decision. The fee for an application was set at \u20ac20 and the fee for an appeal was set at \u20ac200, ten times the application fee. They were under two statutory instruments: SI 417 and SI 418. It is apparent that the fees for appeals were set at ten times the level of an application not only to discourage appeals on an individual level, but also to discourage appeals on an organised level from environmental NGOs like Save Leitrim. While the differing views of the Department and the environmental community may involve matters of complexity around the competing demands of carbon targets versus biodiversity, and it is okay to have those differences, my question is very simple. It involves the legal status of fees introduced under these two statutory instruments. Section 14F(1) of the Forestry (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act says the Minister may prescribe fees under certain circumstances. It states, \"The Minister may, having consulted with the chairperson of the Forestry Appeals Committee, prescribe fees that may be charged for an appeal, and different fees may be prescribed for different appeals or classes of appeal\". Did this consultation ever take place? If so, are there any memos or minutes relating to the consultation? I have seen communication from the forestry appeals committee dated 24 March 2025 in response to access to information on the environment request that says the information requested did not exist as there was no consultation between the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine and the chairperson of the forestry appeals committee on the prescription of fees. I can send on the emails and response to the Minister of State. A subsequent email dated 2 April 2025 confirms the first chairperson of the forestry appeals committee, Des Johnson, also reported he had no records relating to any consultation regarding the implementation of fees. Did the consultation take place, and does any documentation exist which proves this consultation took place?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niall Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niall-Collins.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Niall-Collins.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Niall Collins I thank Senator Cosgrove for raising this important matter relating to the consultation process undertaken by our Department in advance of the introduction of the \u20ac200 submission fee for appeals to the forestry appeals committee. I will address the legislative basis for the fee, the consultation undertaken with relevant stakeholders, including the forestry appeals committee, and the considerations that informed the decision to introduce the fee at this level. The forestry appeals committee was established to provide an independent appeals mechanism in respect of decisions on forestry licence applications, including applications for afforestation, felling, forest road works and aerial fertilisation. This provides applicants and third parties with an independent avenue of appeal without having to resort to the considerably more expensive option of seeking a judicial review before the High Court. The legal basis for the establishment and operation of the forestry appeals committee, including the introduction of fees, is provided for under the Forestry Act 2014, the Forestry (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2020 and the associated Forestry Appeals Committee Regulations 2020. In particular, section 14F(1) of the Agriculture Appeals Act 2001 provides the Minister with the authority to prescribe different fees for different classes and types of appeal. The Forestry (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2020 was introduced as part of wider reforms to the forestry appeals process, with the objective of bringing the process more closely into line with comparable statutory planning and appeals mechanisms. In determining the appropriate fee, my Department had regard to the fees applying to comparable appeals processes, including those administered by An Coimisi\u00fan Plean\u00e1la. At the time, the relevant fee for an appeal against a non-commercial development was \u20ac220 with an additional charge of \u20ac50 where an oral hearing was requested. The proposed forestry appeals fee of \u20ac200 was considered in this context. It must be noted that the actual administrative and operational costs associated with processing appeals were significantly higher than the proposed fee, particularly given the volume of appeals being received at the time. The fee was therefore intended to make a contribution towards the costs of administering the appeals process rather than to recover the full cost from appellants. In relation to consultation, our Department undertook a public consultation process as part of the legislative development of the reforms during which nearly 9,000 submissions were received and assessed. This process also included engagement with the forestry appeals committee. A meeting took place on 1 October 2019 at which the proposed introduction of fees was discussed. My Department's consideration of the fee was informed by this consultation and also took account of the need to maintain an accessible and effective appeals process while recognising the considerable administrative costs associated with the operation of an independent appeals mechanism. In this regard, the Department has had due regard to its obligations under the Aarhus Convention, which seeks to promote public participation in environmental decision-making and ensure effective access to environmental justice. I am satisfied that the current fee arrangements operate within the relevant legislative framework and that the fee of \u20ac200 represents a proportionate contribution towards the cost of administering the appeals process. I recognise the importance of ensuring that the forestry appeals process remains transparent, effective and accessible to those who wish to exercise their statutory right of appeal. In this regard I believe the current fee structure is appropriate. I thank the Senator for raising this issue. I hope that reply explains the situation satisfactorily."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Nessa Cosgrove It does not really. It appears there are two different understandings of consultation. Regarding the involvement of the forestry appeals committee and the Department of agriculture, why does the forestry appeals committee have no record of this? The chairperson might have had it in even his own notes or his diary but he has no record of it all. I will send the Minister of State the email. I would love it if he would review it, if possible. Environmental groups such as Save Leitrim and BirdWatch Ireland have been accused of sending in appeals just to be awkward. They are not. Approximately 92% of appeals submitted by Save Leitrim were successful. It has genuine concerns about the unsuitability of land and that is fair. It has said that environmental harm can be done to peatland, which dries out when it is disturbed by the planting of Sitka spruce. It is not fair on this group that it has had to spend \u20ac22,000 on appeals since 2020. That is money that was raised locally. Communities, especially communities in Leitrim where the population is not enormous, do not have that kind of money. A lot of that money could be spent on better environmental projects locally. It seems very unusual that the forestry appeals committee has said it has no understanding that any consultation took place. I will send the Minister of State the email and the corresponding document we got and perhaps he could view them. There are other issues regarding the levy and how high it is. Why should groups like this be exposed to such a big levy when everything they have sent in has been successful? I can follow up on that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niall Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niall-Collins.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Niall-Collins.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Niall Collins The Senator can send it on but it is the job of the forestry appeals committee to hear appeals. It is not the job of the chairperson of the appeals committee to set the fee. The legislation prescribes who can set the fee. I outlined to the Senator how that decision was arrived at. I also outlined to her that it is less than what would be paid in the equivalent process in An Coimisi\u00fan Plean\u00e1la. It is a contribution towards the cost. I met with the forestry appeals committee chairperson recently. It is a very busy organisation. It gets a great volume of appeals. The advent of AI has presented it with huge challenges as regards the volume of submissions it receives. That is a consideration also, I think. It is something we have to look at going forward to try to make the whole system more efficient. However, I will be straight up with the Senator. I do not think \u20ac200 is an excessive fee; I think it is a reasonable fee. It is a contribution towards the costs. I ask her to send on the email."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Nessa Cosgrove I disagree with the Minister of State and I will send him a copy of the email."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Forestry Sector"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_8","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Rail Network","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_5","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_5","showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Conway","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Conway.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Martin-Conway.S.2011-05-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Conway","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Conway.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Martin-Conway.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Martin Conway I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Buttimer, to the House and thank him for coming in to take this Commencement matter, which is connected with his Department. It is an issue that has been exercising a lot of political activity and conversation over recent years. We all know how popular train travel is now. In 2023, 86,000 people travelled by train from Ennis to Limerick. In 2024, that increased to, I think, 101,000 or something, which was a significant increase in the number of passengers using the Ennis-to-Limerick railway line. I have no doubt that when the 2025 figures become available, we will see an increase in that. As people know, as regards travel by train from Ennis to Limerick and from Limerick to Ennis, if you are travelling from Limerick to Ennis, you can continue on to Galway as part of the western rail corridor project. Some 250,000 people use the train between Ennis and Galway each year. If you were to accumulate all the figures between Limerick and Galway, you could be talking about anything up to 1 million. There is, however, a significant problem, which is that on a number of occasions over the past decade, services have had to be suspended from Ennis to Limerick because of flooding in Ballycar, which is outside Newmarket-on-Fergus, for those who may not be aware where Ballycar is. We have been lucky so far this year that the line has not had to be closed because of flooding, but it causes serious difficulty for people commuting between Ennis and Limerick and between Limerick and Galway, particularly because people have to use buses for already-congested roads, particularly at peak times, going into Limerick city. To have to have a fleet of buses going from Ennis through Sixmilebridge and on to Limerick is not acceptable. As I said earlier, this has been a political issue for some time. There was an interdepartmental group set up comprising officials from the Department of Transport, the Minister of State's Department, Clare County Council and the OPW. Thankfully, an engineering solution was identified to resolve this issue. The price of this solution is in the region of \u20ac15 million to \u20ac20 million, which is not insignificant but, when you look at the overall transport budget, is small money to resolve permanently a problem on a line that will get busier and will have more train carriages on it. The problem is that since that interdepartmental report was published, little has happened. No agency has been appointed as the lead agency and no funding has been provided to deal with the problem. I have to agree with Roderic O'Gorman, who criticised the slow pace of this recently. When will we see this work commence? When will we see the engineering solution activated? When will we see a lead agency appointed to step up to lead on the project? When will we see the funding provided to alleviate it? Even if it were to happen unannounced tomorrow morning, we know that it will take some time before the work has concluded. The people who travel by train regularly between Ennis and Limerick deserve the reassurance that there will not be periods when the service is suspended due to flooding. I await the Minister of State's reply with interest."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister of State at the Department of Transport (Deputy Jerry Buttimer) I thank Senator Conway for the opportunity to speak to the Seanad on this important issue. I am taking this debate on behalf of the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, who is taking Topical Issue Matters in the D\u00e1il. I thank Senator Conway, who is a long-time advocate, a regular train user and a user of public transport, and his insights are critically important. As he outlined, the rail line between Ennis and Limerick is an important public transport link in the mid-west and is seeing growth in passenger numbers. The Government has demonstrated its commitment to continuing to invest in transport in the west and mid-west. I am pleased that earlier this month, Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann published a tender for the construction of platform extensions on the sections of the western rail corridor between Limerick and Athenry, which will enable the use of longer trains on the service. Farther north, as part of the national development plan, funding is being provided to advance the reinstatement of the western rail corridor between Claremorris and Athenry, which will significantly boost regional connectivity. That feeds into the Senator's point about more people using it. In the shorter term, the work on the reinstatement of the Foynes freight line is nearing completion, and freight services should be operational early next year. The opening of this line also gives us an opportunity to run trains from Limerick Junction to Adare on a temporary basis to support the hosting of the Ryder Cup. As Members of the House will know, investing in our infrastructure is important, but so too is protecting our existing infrastructure and ensuring that it is resilient to hazards such as flooding. I am well aware of the issues the Senator outlined regarding the section of the line near Ballycar, which has caused profound difficulties and the suspension of rail services in the past. These have persisted despite works in which Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann raised the track level at Ballycar to mitigate the effects of flooding. The Department of Transport is engaging with Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann and the National Transport Authority to identify any works that can be put in place to help address the threat of flooding in the short term over the coming winter months, including any drainage or flood defence works that can be supported through the infrastructure manager multi-annual contract. This is a contract between the Minister for Transport and Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann that provides for the protection and renewal of the rail network, including the maintenance and delivery of drainage works on the network. For the four-year period 2026 to 2030, \u20ac2.1 billion in funding has been provided to help ensure the protection and renewal of the rail network under the contract. Officials from the Department of Transport are also engaging with all relevant stakeholders on how best to address the long-term issue of flooding on the railway line, which is likely to require significant engineering works given the earlier investment to raise the track bed. In identifying the preferred solution, the Department of Transport, together with Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann, may also seek to engage with the Office of Public Works to seek its advice and engineering expertise on potential solutions. The Ministers in the Department and officials are all keen to see this issue addressed and a cost-effective and enduring solution identified that supports the ongoing safe operation of the railway line today and for years to come. Finally, as the Senator knows better than most, Ballycar Lough and its environs lie within a geological and hydrological environment that causes potential issues. In doing any works, it is important that we understand the topology of the area, but also that, for the travelling passengers the Senator mentioned, we provide certainty to the people who use the line, whether through infrastructure manager multi-annual contract work or through further engagement. I thank the Senator for raising the matter. I urge him to engage further with the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, on the matter."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Conway","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Conway.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Martin-Conway.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Martin Conway I welcome the reply. I acknowledge the environmental sensitivities around the solution, but there is a proposed engineering solution, which I have no doubt was developed with consideration for the environmental challenges that exist there. I welcome the fact that short-term work is being undertaken to reduce the risk of services being suspended this winter. Those short-term measures are welcome, and I thank the Minister of State for confirming in the House today that they are ongoing. However, I believe an agency needs to be appointed to step up and deliver a long-term solution. We also need a timeline for that solution. Perhaps the Minister of State might articulate those points to the Minister."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jerry Buttimer I again thank Senator Conway for his ongoing commitment and interest, not just in this particular matter but also in public transport in general. As already stated, this is a critically important railway line. It is contributing to mobility and, as the Senator said, to economic opportunities for the people in the mid-west region and beyond. I assure the Senator that the Government is committed to investing in rail and public transport infrastructure in the west and the mid-west and to ensuring that the flood risk at Ballycar is mitigated, particularly the line is an important part of the infrastructure. As I said to the Senator, given the karst landscape at Ballycar, the flooding issue is complex and may require significant engineering works to develop and implement a long-term solution. The Senator is well aware of the report on the flood relief options prepared by the consultant group RPS for Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann, Clare County Council, the OPW and the Geological Survey of Ireland. We must develop and implement a long-term solution, given that past efforts to raise the track have probably not been sufficient to mitigate all flood risk, as the Senator outlined. Officials from our Department are engaging across the board on this to identify an enduring and cost-effective solution to the flooding issue. In the short and medium term, departmental officials are engaging with Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann to assess the viability of providing short-term relief while also ensuring that works are provided for under the infrastructure manager multi-annual contract to reduce the potential impact of flooding. I will bring the Senator's concerns back to the relevant Minister of State, Deputy Canney."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Rail Network"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_9","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Swimming Pools","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_5","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_5","showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_9","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fiona O'Loughlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niall Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niall-Collins.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Niall-Collins.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fiona O'Loughlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Fiona O'Loughlin I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Collins, for being here. We extended our sympathy to him on the passing of his uncle Gerry last week. I would like to do so again. He was an incredible man and left a huge legacy, having been a Minister in three different portfolios. I know how close the Minister of State was to his uncle and what a guide and mentor he was to him. Our very deepest sympathies to the Minister of State, to Gerry's wife, Hilary, and, of course, to the extended family. The issue I am raising today is the lack of a swimming pool or, indeed, a plan for a swimming pool in Newbridge. Newbridge is one of the fastest-growing towns in Leinster. It has 27,000 people and is growing. We are 10% ahead of our target in Kildare in relation to housebuilding. Although houses are being built, the infrastructure is, sadly, falling behind. In the past, we had two small private swimming pools in Newbridge that schools and individuals were able to access. We had limited use of the Curragh swimming pool in the Curragh Camp, but at least it was available for community groups and local schools. We are now in a situation where neither of those private swimming pools is available and, since Covid, we have not had the same access to the Curragh swimming pool. A number of years ago, when the current Taoiseach was Minister for both foreign affairs and defence, I approached him about this. There was absolutely no access for anybody, including family members of Defence Forces personnel who traditionally had access. At the time, the then Minister reached an agreement with the Department of Defence and, indeed, the Army that if money was spent on changing rooms and providing access, the barracks would give more time to community groups and schools. That access only became available last year, but it is very limited, being available only on two days for two hours each. Despite public money going into this and despite the swimming pool being what should be a community asset as well as an asset to the Defence Forces, we have not had a lot of traction. As I mentioned, Newbridge is one of the fastest-growing towns in the country. We have 136 schools in Kildare. In south Kildare, we only have one public swimming pool, in Athy, which is very difficult to get to unless families have a car or possibly a second car. It is practically impossible to get there by public transport. It is slightly easier to get to the pool in Naas but, at the same time, we should have our own pool. In 2024, when the then Minister of State with responsibility for sport, Deputy Thomas Byrne, launched the first national swimming strategy, there was an explicit goal of giving everyone in Ireland the chance to learn to swim. Swimming is a very popular sport and it is important for our health. The medical data is clear that swimming provides brilliant cardiovascular benefits because the water supports your weight. It is one of the best ways for older people to stay active and protect their joints. Even more important, pools are where we teach our young people to stay safe in the water. We are an island nation with a lot of water around us and within the country. Water Safety Ireland figures show there were 56 accidental drownings in 2024, 19 of which were young people aged under 19. On top of that, about 20% of people who live in our country do not know how to swim. That is a frightening statistic. Why do we have a national swimming strategy when there is a glaring gap, echoed by Swim Ireland, in south Kildare? Kildare County Council at this point does not have plans, even though it is in the settlement strategy for Newbridge. I appreciate the Minister of State is deputising for the sports Minister but I want to ask about any plans the Department may have to support a swimming pool in Newbridge."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niall Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niall-Collins.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Niall-Collins.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Niall Collins Sport and psychical activity are hugely important to our collective health and well-being. Lifelong sports like swimming are particularly important to sustained participation. The availability and ease of access to sports facilities, whether in a club setting, on public lands or any other amenity, is a key factor in drawing more people to participation in sport. Planning for our future facilities requires locations and types. It is a particular focus of our current sports action plan from 2024 to 2027, supported by the work of Sport Ireland as a statutory consultee for local development plans, and capital funds operated by the Department of Culture, Communications and Sport. Given the challenges of increased demand and a growing population, we consider there is real merit in the development of municipally backed shared sports facilities to make the best use of available funding, land and transport links. In this regard, I strongly encourage national governing bodies of sport, sports clubs and local authorities to collaborate on the development of such facilities. I understand Kildare County Council is commissioning a detailed site feasibility study in relation to a possible swimming pool on lands in its ownership in the Leixlip Demesne townland. Swim Ireland is working closely with Kildare County Council on its plans to develop permanent swimming facilities. This follows a previous successful collaboration on a pop-up pool, with the collected data further supporting the case for sustainable swimming infrastructure in north Kildare. While the provision of public swimming pools is a matter for local authorities, the Department of Culture, Communications and Sport administers two capital funding programmes for sport, namely, the community sports facilities fund and the large scale sports infrastructure fund, which can be accessed to improve and develop public swimming pool infrastructure. Over \u20ac250 million was allocated to 3,048 community sports clubs and facilities in 2024 from the 2023 round of the community sports facilities fund, representing the largest ever investment in sports facilities in communities across Ireland. Almost \u20ac9 million was allocated to 103 projects in Kildare in 2024, including projects in Newbridge. The new round of the community sports facilities fund opened for applications on 19 October and will remain open until Friday, 26 February 2027. Applications in relation to swimming pools that support objectives under the national swimming strategy will be prioritised. To date, there have been two rounds of the large scale sport infrastructure fund, with a cumulative investment of \u20ac297 million across 68 projects. Under the 2018 round of the large scale sport infrastructure fund, in excess of \u20ac6 million was awarded to St. Conleth's Park GAA grounds in Newbridge. Under the 2024 round, the Naas cross-community development project was awarded \u20ac1 million. The Golf Ireland high performance centre was awarded \u20ac1.4 million and Sallins Park community sports centre was awarded \u20ac3 million. Previously, the local authority swimming pool programme provided grant aid towards the capital cost of new swimming pools or the refurbishment of existing pools. Fifty-three pools have been completed, with the most recently completed one being at the newly completed Lucan leisure campus in County Dublin. This was officially opened last month and the project received an allocation of \u20ac3.8 million. It consists of two newly constructed pools, including a multi-use pool, with a moveable floor. At a national level, Ireland's first national swimming strategy was published in 2024. I will come back in afterwards and complete this because I am out of time."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fiona O'Loughlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Fiona O'Loughlin I have no doubt the Minister of State was as frustrated as I was when he was reading out that and I was listening. There is plenty of mention of north Kildare, Dublin and the national strategy but the only mention of Newbridge was in relation to the county grounds at St. Conleth's Park. Of course we are very happy to have it in the centre of Kildare. It is a fantastic facility but it does not address the needs of the people of Newbridge. They deserve to have good facilities and deserve to have a swimming pool. In the response given to the Minster of State by the Department there is talk about it not being its responsibility and that it is just back to Kildare County Council. I acknowledge that Kildare County Council has to play a really important role but I believe that following the first ever national swimming strategy, which was launched two years ago, there should be a national strategy for the provision of swimming pools. Swim Ireland, a national organisation, did a county facility report, which clearly shows the massive gap in public pool space across Kildare and particularly in the south of the county. I am really pleased that work will commence for Leixlip and possibly for Maynooth as well. However, that does not take away from the urgent need in Kildare, for all the reasons I have outlined, to have a swimming pool there. There needs to be a partnership approach between the Department and Kildare County Council"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niall Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niall-Collins.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Niall-Collins.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Niall Collins I thank Senator O'Loughlin for raising the issue. It is hugely important for the area she represents. The arguments the Senator has made are quite compelling. There is a national strategy. A gap analysis study was also carried out, which is available on the Department's website. This shows that there is such a gap in the areas referred to by the Senator. I agree with her. The case she has articulated has huge merit and I will convey her sentiments to my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy McConalogue and the acting senior Minister, Deputy Peter Burke."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionra\u00ed ar 1.54 p.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 2.03 p.m."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sitting suspended at 1.54 p.m. and resumed at 2.03 p.m."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Swimming Pools"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_10","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Election of Member","counts":{"speechCount":2,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_10","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I have to announce that the following Member has been elected to fill the casual vacancy in the membership of the Seanad to which the resolution of Seanad \u00c9ireann on 22 September 2026 has reference: Cultural and Educational Panel, Oireachtas Sub-Panel: Ray McAdam."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Senator McAdam was introduced to the Cathaoirleach and then took his seat."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Now that he has been allocated his seat, I welcome Senator McAdam to the Chamber formally. I also welcome Pat and Anne, Ryan, Leeanne, Brendan, Eimear, Tre Robert, Miriam, Lizzie, Tom and Denis to the Distinguished Visitors Gallery. They are very welcome here on what is a formidable occasion for any person being elected to Seanad \u00c9ireann. Fewer than 1,000 people have been elected to Seanad \u00c9ireann in its 104-year history. That is a small number of people who have served in this House and served the public. I keep calling him Ray, but Senator McAdam has served the public in Dublin since he was elected in 2009 to the city council as Lord Mayor. He was the 358th Lord Mayor of the city. Now he is in Seanad \u00c9ireann, where I know he will do an outstanding job on behalf of the people who elected him to the city council as well as the people of Ireland. I welcome him formally. I know all other Members will join in the congratulations on his election to Seanad \u00c9ireann. They are much deserved owing to his campaign, which in and of itself left nothing to chance, and his hard work down through the years. His record speaks for itself in that regard."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Election of Member"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_11","debateType":"orderofBusiness","bill":null,"showAs":"An tOrd Gn\u00f3 - Order of Business","counts":{"speechCount":60,"speakerCount":29},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_11","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fiona O'Loughlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ray McAdam","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ray-McAdam.S.2026-11-06","memberCode":"Ray-McAdam.S.2026-11-06","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Clonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","memberCode":"Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sharon Keogan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patricia Stephenson","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Frances Black","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Frances-Black.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Frances-Black.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Murphy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Conor-Murphy.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alison Comyn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gareth Scahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Duffy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aubrey McCarthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robbie Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-O'Reilly.S.1989-10-01","memberCode":"Joe-O'Reilly.S.1989-10-01","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pauline Tully","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Evanne N\u00ed Chuilinn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Evanne-N\u00ed-Chuilinn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Evanne-N\u00ed-Chuilinn.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Anne Rabbitte","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Anne-Rabbitte.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Anne-Rabbitte.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Laura Harmon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Manus Boyle","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Manus-Boyle.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Manus-Boyle.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eileen Lynch","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eileen-Lynch.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Eileen-Lynch.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mike Kennelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mike-Kennelly.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Mike-Kennelly.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eileen Flynn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eileen-Flynn.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Eileen-Flynn.S.2020-06-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sarah O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paraic Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paraic-Brady.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Paraic-Brady.S.2025-01-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Garret Ahearn I too welcome Senator McAdam to the Chamber, as well as his family. It is a hugely proud day for his wife, Niamh, and his son and parents. It is an incredibly proud day for everyone who has supported him through almost 20 years of public service. As the Cathaoirleach said, Senator McAdam served on Dublin City Council, and he was Lord Mayor at a challenging time. He is entering a Chamber where we try our best to respect each other and work together. I know that he, along with everyone in this House, will respect the traditions of this Chamber. The Order of Business is No. a 1, Strategic Lawsuits Against Public Participation Bill 2026 - Second Stage, to be taken at 3.15 p.m. and to conclude at 5 p.m., if not previously concluded, with the time allocated to the opening remarks of the Minister not to exceed ten minutes, group spokespersons not to exceed eight minutes each, all other Senators not to exceed five minutes each and the Minister to be given no less than ten minutes to reply to the debate; and No. 68, motion 6, Private Members' business, motion re building momentum in dementia care through policy, research and partnership, to be taken at 5 p.m., with the time allocated to this debate not to exceed two hours."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fiona O'Loughlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Fiona O'Loughlin I add my voice of welcome to Senator Ray McAdam and his family and friends. It is a proud day. I pay tribute to a strong campaign for the Seanad. I also pay tribute to the three other candidates who put their names forward, namely, Dr. Maeve O'Rourke, Ms Caitl\u00edn N\u00ed Bhroin and Professor Patrick Paul Walsh. Democracy is always important. It is always important that people have a choice in voting. A new service in Kildare, Kare, which provides services for people with intellectual disability across Kildare, west Wicklow and parts of Offaly, has opened in Newbridge. It is a new day service for 40 young people who are leaving special school. We are lucky to have two special schools in the area, namely, St. Mark's School and St. Anne's School. Unfortunately, when young people leave these schools, sometimes they do not have a place to go to in order to create friendships, continue learning, socialise or have some type of supported employment. This is now going to be a local base for young people from ages 18 to 25 minimum. That is really important. I am conscious, however, that not every area has a service such as this. It is important that we have a debate on the matter. It is a service that provides options to young people with intellectual disability to develop skills and friendships and take an active part in their local community. I shared an Instagram post last week about my own brother, Cathal, who is a client of Kare. He celebrated 27 years of work within Kildare County Council and Newbridge library. The pride and joy any of us has would not match the pride and joy he has in his job. It is important that we have a big debate on that. I also raise the incredible results of the Irish Cancer Society's lung screening pilot, which successfully caught 80% of detected lung cancers at stage 1. That is incredible. My own dad died of lung cancer. I know how hard it is to detect it and how difficult it is successfully treat it at an advanced stage. Early detection completely changes patient survival rates and, looking at it on a monetary level, would save the State millions of euro in acute healthcare costs. Ms Samantha Vaughan, who launched the white ribbon campaign on lung cancer, has done a lot of work in this area. We really need to have a debate with the Minister for Health on how to improve detection rates for lung disease, which, more often than not, is fatal if it is not caught early enough."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I will fall out of protocol to call the new Senator in the Fine Gael slot."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ray McAdam","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ray-McAdam.S.2026-11-06","memberCode":"Ray-McAdam.S.2026-11-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Ray McAdam Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an gCathaoirleach as an bhf\u00e1ilte. Is m\u00f3r an on\u00f3ir dom a bheith anseo in Seanad \u00c9ireann. Is m\u00f3r an fhreagracht \u00e9 fresin. I am deeply conscious of the honour of taking my seat in this House and enormously grateful to everyone who helped to bring me to this moment. I thank my colleagues in Fine Gael, Fianna F\u00e1il, other political groupings and those across the Independent benches for their support. I also thank the Genealogical Society of Ireland, the Bar council and the Veterinary Council of Ireland for nominating me. I particularly acknowledge the Old Dublin Society, which was the first organisation to formally nominate me. All of us here know that no one arrives at a moment like this on our own. Many people gave generously of their time, energy and friendship on my behalf over many years and I owe them all a debt of sincere gratitude, particularly my campaign bainisteoir, Ms Lizzie Munnelly, for her tireless work, loyalty and belief in me. I thank my parents, siblings and our families for the love, values and support that helped to shape me and bring me to this moment and Niamh and Iarlaith for the love, happiness and meaning they bring to my life. Whatever honours public life may bring, being their husband and dad will always be my greatest privilege. I arrived in Dublin in 2002 as a young student seeking opportunity. I found a city that became my home and gave me the privilege of serving its people. Seven years later, I had the privilege of being elected to Dublin City Council, serving alongside my good friend, Senator Fitzpatrick, and for almost 18 years, I have had the extraordinary privilege of representing communities from Stoneybatter to the markets and from East Wall to Sheriff Street. Those communities are ones of enormous character, resilience and pride and they have taught me more about public service than any public office I could ever hold. Serving as Lord Mayor was an immense honour, but it is the everyday experiences that have brought me to one abiding conviction, that the purpose of politics must be to serve the common good. It means asking not simply what the Government can promise, but what kind of Republic we have a duty to build, and that is a Republic of opportunity, community and responsibility. These are principles in my party's just society tradition. Ireland must be ambitious, but ambition demands discipline. Sound public finances and effective public services are not alternatives to social progress. They are what sustain it. I came to Dublin seeking opportunity. I want others to find the same opportunity I did. I take my seat, grateful for the past, conscious of my responsibilities and determined to serve. Our duty is not simply to manage what we have inherited; it is to build something worthy of those who will inherit it from us."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I congratulate the Senator."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Clonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","memberCode":"Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Tom Clonan I welcome Senator McAdam to the Chamber and congratulate him on his election. I met Iarlaith and the Senator's wife Niamh earlier. His family is welcome. I wish the Senator the best of luck in the months and years ahead. I raise the issue of the triple lock again, in particular, some of the most extraordinary statements the Minister for Defence, Deputy McEntee, made in the D\u00e1il last week. For many years, I have been warning about what could happen in the absence of the triple lock and have argued consistently that in its absence, any future Government could send any number of Irish troops to any conflict in the world by simple Government majority. That was a hypothetical. Second Stage was no sooner passed by whipped majority than the Minister went to Lebanon and announced she wanted to see Irish troops deployed there as part of an EU mission involved in both peacekeeping and peace enforcement. She said that on the public record in media interviews over and over while in Lebanon and on her way home. Let me be clear. This EU support mission flows from a trilateral agreement between Israel, the United States and the Lebanese Government, which, frankly, the latter was headlocked into while Israel and Netanyahu were carrying out ethnic cleansing in south Lebanon in and around the villages patrolled by our troops - our young men and women. Not only that, Hezbollah has stated of this mission, which is designed to support the Lebanese armed forces and Government to disarm Hezbollah, that it will treat any such force as a legitimate target. I am not a supporter of Hezbollah and I am not suggesting Irish troops will fight alongside the Israelis. Hezbollah has murdered comrades of mine. However, I will say this. If this comes to pass, our military non-aligned neutrality will be a thing of the past. We will de facto no longer be neutral and it will put the crosshairs on any Irish troops who serve in Lebanon and on our diaspora all around the world. Overnight, we will have lost our military neutrality. I appeal to my colleagues to please not proceed with this, especially my colleagues in Fianna F\u00e1il. I know they are unhappy with this. In raising my concerns, the Minister accused the Opposition of endangering our troops. That is a disgraceful slur and a smear on legitimate parliamentary discussion. I hope, as the Ceannaire mentioned, in the traditions of this House we can have a proper, informed debate about what I think is a catastrophic move."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sharon Keogan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Sharon Keogan Hear, hear."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patricia Stephenson","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Patricia Stephenson Hear, hear."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Frances Black","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Frances-Black.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Frances-Black.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Frances Black Hear, hear."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Chris Andrews Hear, hear."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Murphy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Conor-Murphy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Conor Murphy On behalf of the Sinn F\u00e9in group, I welcome Senator McAdam to the Chamber and wish him well over the course of the mandate. By happy coincidence, there is a full turn-out on the Fine Gael benches as I stand up to praise them for the document released at the Ard-Fheis at the weekend. Last week I praised the Taoiseach and Fianna F\u00e1il for the initiative they launched. Its importance was it was not just a party initiative but a Government initiative. The Government has a constitutional imperative to pursue Irish reunification. I look forward to seeing that reflected in the work the Government does on this and to the opportunity to engage with that. I acknowledge the launch of the blueprint document at the Fine Gael Ard-Fheis at the weekend. Its proposals section begins with the comment \"support for Irish unity means we also have responsibility to prepare for it\". That is something we have been discussing in this Chamber over the past 18 months or two years. It is a significant statement, which moves it from a party aspiration to a doable political project. The report majors on issues of consent, reconciliation and respect for all identities, including British and unionist identities. That is an entirely correct approach. The united Ireland I would like to see constructed is an inclusive Ireland. Many of the steps Fine Gael outlined are sensible and practical. I look forward to the opportunity it has offered to engage with it on those. I particularly welcome the proposal to extend the franchise for presidential elections north of the Border, something that has been outstanding for almost a decade and a half. The sooner we see progress on that, the better. There is significant momentum around debate on and preparations for unity and these developments have added to them. Last night I attended an event at the ARINS Project. It hosted views from Irish Protestants on their experience in the State and on the prospect of unity. This morning IBEC launched an all-Ireland workforce report. Allied to that, LucidTalk issued a poll over the weekend in the North showing the gap between those supporting reunification and those supporting continued union with Britain is down to a very small number of percentage points. This poll is taken on the basis of how people would vote tomorrow. The gap has shrunk significantly without even the necessary preparation that we all agree must happen in order to support this process. The onus is on all of us who want to see a better future on this island for all of our people to get down urgently to that preparation work and to expand engagement to the widest possible extent to ensure that all voices and all perspectives are heard and that we develop a blueprint and a prospectus for reunification on which we can engage with people in time and move ourselves to a position where a poll is in place to enable us to fulfil that lifelong challenge for many of us."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patricia Stephenson","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Patricia Stephenson I extend my congratulations to Senator McAdam and his family. I am sure they are all very proud today, and we welcome them to the Chamber. Imagine somebody having already lost their home and all their belongings, living in a tent with nowhere else to go and then winter rains come. In a matter of hours, flooding affects around 70,000 tents in Gaza. Bedding is soaked, tents are destroyed and families who have already endured unimaginable loss face yet another disaster. The images we saw over the weekend were absolutely harrowing, with parents trying to keep their children warm, older people with nowhere dry to sleep and babies being exposed to cold and illness. Palestinian people should be able to live with dignity. They should have protection. They should have the necessities for life just like any of us. However, that is not what we have seen in Gaza over the last two years or indeed over the last weekend. Where is the humanitarian response? Words of horror and outrage are simply not enough. Organisations on the ground are warning that stocks of tents, blankets and essential supplies inside Gaza are virtually non-existent. They are completely depleted. Urgently needed equipment remains outside still awaiting access because the Israeli state continues to block humanitarian access despite the ceasefire and despite the nonsense of the so-called Gaza Board of Peace. The Taoiseach told the UN, \"Nobody will be able to say that we did not know. Let it not be said that we did not act.\" Those are powerful words and sentiments I agree with. However, words must be matched by action. What meaning can they have if families are left exposed to flooding, cold and preventable suffering? This week, as 48 international leaders gather in Dublin, we have a moment and a responsibility to act. The Taoiseach must demand immediate, sustained and unimpeded humanitarian access, the entry of tents, blankets, fuel, pumps and heavy machinery. There must be real pressure to protect civilians and uphold international law. We cannot simply offer sympathy and speeches and accept paralysis in practice. The people of Gaza cannot wait for another statement, another meeting, another promise. Israel is simply not allowing the aid in and it is time that we demand that it does get in. This might mean sanctions. It is outrageous that we continue to accept the complete impunity of the Israeli state with these humanitarian catastrophes, one after another, impacting the Palestinian people. It is outrageous. If it were anywhere else in the world, we would be shouting from the rooftops to demand that aid is delivered. The gathering this week should be remembered not for the lovely words that all the leaders say but for the action that they finally take."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Frances Black","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Frances-Black.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Frances-Black.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Frances Black I also congratulate Senator McAdam and his family. He is very welcome to the Chamber. I look forward to working with him. I also want to talk about what happened to the families in Gaza this weekend. We all saw what happened on Friday night. The first winter storm arrived and mothers awoke in the dark to find water rising around their children as they slept. I cannot even bear to think about it. It was not just rainwater. The Gaza sewerage system has been absolutely destroyed, meaning that raw sewage flooded into tents and onto mattresses, blankets and clothes. The few things these families still own were soaked in absolute filth. Some 70,000 tents were flooded in 12 hours. Parents spent the night baling out water with pots and pans. Men stood barefoot in pools of water saying they had no tarpaulin, no tents and no one coming to help. In central Gaza, a rain-sodden embankment collapsed onto tents and children were among those killed. They survived two years of bombardment only to die in the mud of a winter storm. The cold is now coming, with temperatures dropping as low as 5\u00b0C. Aid agencies are warning of disease spreading through the camps. Classrooms serving tens of thousands of children were flooded too. Even that small piece of normal life has been washed away. These are people who have lost everything; their homes, their loved ones, their sense of safety and now they cannot even stay dry. This is not a natural disaster. It is a man-made one. Tents, shelters, kits and fuel are sitting at Gaza's borders and Israel is blocking them. Where is the humanity in leaving children to sleep in sewage while tents sit at the border? This is not only a moral failure, it is a breach of international law. Under the Geneva Conventions, an occupying power must ensure the civilian population has food, shelter and medical supplies and must allow relief to pass freely. The International Court of Justice has ordered Israel to let humanitarian aid into Gaza without obstruction. These obligations do not stop with Israel. Every state that has signed the Geneva Conventions, Ireland included, has committed to respect and ensure respect for them in all circumstances. Our own Constitution commits Ireland to the principles of international law. This is not a matter of choice for us or for Europe. It is our absolute duty and obligation. I welcome the statement from the Minister for foreign affairs yesterday. The Minister, Deputy McEntee, called Israel's intentional blocking of aid reprehensible and unacceptable. She is absolutely right. She has also committed to raising Gaza with our European partners at this week's summit in Dublin and I want to hold the Government to that because words will not dry a single mattress or warm a single child. This Thursday and Friday, Europe's leaders are in Dublin and Ireland is in the chair. I ask the Taoiseach to put Gaza at the centre of Friday's meeting. He should demand a deadline for Israel to open every crossing, with real consequences if it does not, starting with the EU-Israel Association Agreement. This means persuading those who have blocked meaningful action for too long, including the Commission President and the German Government. If Europe's leaders meet in our capital and leave without forcing those crossings open, it would be absolutely intolerable. I ask the Leader to arrange statements with the Minister as soon as possible. Please, listen to the plea today, Leader - open the borders."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Clonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","memberCode":"Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Tom Clonan Hear, hear."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alison Comyn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Alison Comyn I also welcome my new colleague to the Seanad Chamber, Senator McAdam, and his family. They should be rightly proud and I look forward to working together with him, as I did alongside him when he was Lord Mayor of Dublin many times on the National Services Day. I look forward to working with Senator McAdam here in the Chamber. What I want to raise I raise as a woman and as chair of the Women's Caucus but mostly as a mam of two who cannot imagine what it would be like to have not seen them for many years. That is why I want to keep a light shining on the nightmare my fellow Louth woman, Mandy Kelly from Dundalk, is going through at the moment. Mandy's sons Zayn and Kareem are eight- and six-years-old. She says she last saw them on 11 March 2022, over four years ago during a family visit to Egypt. Kareem turned six last week. On the last birthday she got to share and spend with him, he was only one year old. The Irish High Court ordered the boys returned to Ireland in December 2022. It is coming up on four years now. Mandy said she secured a final custody order in Egypt in June but a separate travel ban, which she is now appealing, still prevents the boys from leaving Cairo. She is in Cairo now on her tenth trip to Egypt and she says two attempts to enforce the custody order have failed. She is absolutely at her wits' end now. I acknowledge the work of our embassy, the direct contact made by the Minister, Deputy McEntee, and the Taoiseach, Deputy Miche\u00e1l Martin, raising the case with President El-Sisi but Mandy is still waiting to see her sons and even find out how they are doing. She has got no news of them or where they are. It is now clear that a senior official needs to be appointed to co-ordinate the next urgent steps with the Egyptian authorities. The immediate priorities are an independent check on the boys' welfare, a safe reunion with their mum and a lawful way to bring them back to their home in County Louth. I hope we can all keep this in the spotlight at the top of our agendas and she will get to be reunited with Kareem and Zayn very soon."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I call Seanad\u00f3ir Byrne."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Maria Byrne Which one?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Ladies first."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Maria Byrne I welcome our new colleague, Senator McAdam. He is really welcome, along with his wife, Niamh, his son, Iarlaith, and extended family and friends. I know that Ray will serve in this Chamber with distinction. I know Ray for a long time. He served on the council for 17 years and worked with former Minister Paschal Donohoe as well, so he is no stranger to politics. I know that he will serve the people in his area with pride and distinction and I wish him all the best. I rise today to highlight the fact that an engineering contract has been awarded for the Colbert Station project in Limerick. This is an area where there is going to be thousands of houses, a sports field, walking and play areas, and it is right in the city centre. This was first spoken about eight years ago, and it is just wonderful to see that the contract is being signed today and that the project is moving on. It is availing of town and village renewal funding and is being done through the Land Development Agency in conjunction with Limerick City and County Council. I wish the project all the best because for a long time we have been looking for people to come and for this area to be developed in a proper manner. The changes will be very proactive in terms of the future development and regeneration of Limerick city."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sharon Keogan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Sharon Keogan I too welcome Senator McAdam. It is fair to say that there was a bit of a stir in this Chamber when I spoke about the Fianna F\u00e1il Ard-Fheis a few months ago. I would hate to let my dear colleagues in Fianna F\u00e1il think that I would single out their party for personal reasons, so to show that I am an equal opportunities critic, I will speak about the Fine Gael Ard-Fheis that took place in Cork over the weekend. The talk about the Ard-Fheis was interesting. An Ard-Fheis is usually about policy, the issues of the day and the concrete plans for the year ahead but from what many people reported and wrote, it seemed that this year's Ard-Fheis was about Fine Gael's identity crisis. Despite the whole Ard-Fheis centring around the question of how to renew the party, and despite shot-down suggestions that Fine Gael ought to go back to its roots as a Christian democratic party, instead, the T\u00e1naiste, Deputy Harris, remarked that too many people are on the dole for life before talking about \"making work pay\". If Simon Harris is actually concerned about making work pay, he would abolish the USC, something that I have called for several times this year both inside and outside this Chamber. In addition to me, some 20 county councils have passed motions calling for its abolition. Ultimately, all of these big ideas from Deputy Harris are farcical. He is speaking like an Opposition leader and expects us all to forget that his party has been in power now for 15 years. When Fine Gael entered Government, Gaddafi was in charge of Libya, Russia and Ukraine were at peace and the Syrian civil war had not even started. The whole world has transformed, yet for four consecutive terms Fine Gael has done nothing. Spare me the talk of how Fine Gael brought us back from the brink after 2008. It was not Fine Gael that did that. It was the Irish people through their sacrifice and hard work. Instead, we have a shiny new logo and a party apparently alive with possibilities."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ray McAdam","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ray-McAdam.S.2026-11-06","memberCode":"Ray-McAdam.S.2026-11-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Ray McAdam Hear, hear."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sharon Keogan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Sharon Keogan I would not say alive because it was the best Irish political wake I ever witnessed."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Mary Fitzpatrick I welcome Senator McAdam to the Seanad and to Leinster House. I also welcome and congratulate his family Niamh, Iarlaith and all of them. It is a very proud moment. It is well-deserved and I wish him well. I look forward to serving with him because we have got some history, but there are a lot of good people in this House and I am glad he is here to join us. I want to raise the announcement that the Dublin city task force is going to go to tender on the provision of private security to patrol the streets of Dublin city. It is a proposal that has been made. It is a very serious proposal and one that deserves serious and considered reflection. I believe that it is unprecedented in the history of the State that we are considering employing private security personnel to control the city and the public domain. It is a moment of reflection for Dublin City Council, the Garda and the politicians. It is very sobering to think that to raise the perception and comfort of workers, residents, businesses, communities and visitors in our city we are having to consider private security. The issue needs to be teased out. I acknowledge that the Dublin city task force has been established and has a very clear remit. I support the task force. I support the fact that it has a very significant budget. A total of \u20ac150 million sounds like an awful lot of money, but it pales into insignificance if we look at Dublin City Council's budget of \u20ac6 billion. It is a moment for everyone to reflect. How did we get to this point? How are we going to ensure that people working in, living in and visiting our city feel safe?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Cathal Byrne I begin by joining colleagues across the Chamber in welcoming our newest Senator, Ray McAdam, and his family, supporters and the local Fine Gael organisation in Dublin Central. As a public representative, I know just how important it is to have the support, first, of one's family, but also of those who back you up and support your actions and your volunteerism on the ground. I know how important it is for the party as well that Senator McAdam has joined our ranks in Seanad \u00c9ireann. It is a worthy recognition of the contribution he has made in Dublin Central over the past 18 years. I have no doubt about the contribution he is going to make in this Chamber for his area and the country as a whole. I listened very carefully to the Opposition contributions earlier about Fine Gael's renewal. I find it ironic that people are criticising the party for renewal on the day we welcome a new Senator who is part of that renewal. I listened very carefully to the question of what Fine Gael has done in government. We have delivered record employment in this country. It is a fact that, when we entered office, unemployment was above 16%. We are now running large public surpluses because we have managed the economy carefully, allowing us to be able to invest record amounts in our public services and healthcare, including the delivery of the national broadband plan, NBP. Most recently, the budget reduced taxation for the average worker by \u20ac750 and for the average working couple by \u20ac1,500 and saved an individual family \u20ac1,800 on childcare bills. The truth is that, with more to come and a new Senator in this Chamber, we look forward to getting on with the people's business."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Chris Andrews I, too, welcome Senator McAdam. It is a huge honour. I suppose politics never goes in a straight line and we all appreciate what an honour it is to serve in this House. I also congratulate Senator McAdam's family and friends. It is a huge honour for everyone. I welcome him here. Public schools are spending thousands of euro each year on water bills. Schools are receiving huge bills from Irish Water and many of them cannot afford to pay those bills. They are under huge strain as essential funding is diverted from educational resources to cover water charges from another State body. Just down the road from here, St. Patrick's National School in Ringsend has had its resources stretched to the limit in trying to provide the best possible education for children. The children get a wonderful education there. Every euro spent on water bills is effectively a euro taken directly out of the classroom. It is reducing resources for information technology, equipment, heating and basic student support. Principals would much prefer to be spending those resources on dyslexia assessments, for example, rather than paying that money to Irish Water. I find it bizarre that schools are being made to pay these bills as if they were commercial businesses turning a profit. If schools are lucky, they get the capitation grant. That covers heating and electricity costs, as well as school insurance, but it does not adequately cover other costs, including those relating to bins and sanitary disposal, extortionate Uisce \u00c9ireann bills and a dozen other major expenses. Schools have been in crisis for a long time due to a lack of adequate funding. This needs to be treated as a crisis. If not properly addressed, the lack of adequate funding and resources will continue to have a knock-on effect on children\u2019s education and well-being. I ask that the Minister come to the House to provide an explanation as to how this issue facing schools is going to be addressed. I mentioned Ringsend, but this issue affects schools right across the country. It is important it is addressed and that money is not taken out of education resources."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gareth Scahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Gareth Scahill Like previous speakers, I welcome Senator Ray McAdam to the House. I also acknowledge his wife, Niamh, his son, Iarlaith, his mother, Anne, his father, Pat, and the whole team, because it is a team effort. Senator McAdam is part of a strong team in this House. I also wish to refer to previous comments made across the House about Fine Gael\u2019s Ard-Fheis at the weekend and the criticism of our renewal commitment. We are the party that has renewed while in government. A total of 22 out of our 38 TDs are new TDs. As of today, we now have 14 new Senators out of total of 17. We are focused on delivering on the programme for Government. We are focused on another three budgets and delivering for our communities, which is what I will move onto now. I welcome figures published by the Roscommon Herald in an article by Richard Canny on fire services in County Roscommon. Those figures show that Ballaghaderreen fire station is the busiest fire station in the county, responding to 45 incidents in the past three months. I acknowledge the tremendous work of our firefighters. These figures also highlight a problem with the geographical area that Ballaghaderreen fire station has to cover. In the same timeframe, there have been 42 incidents in Roscommon town, 19 in Boyle, 17 in Strokestown and 14 in Elphin. Now is the time to have a serious conversation about the reopening of Castlerea fire station. Geographically, it would relieve significant pressure on those fire stations. I also acknowledge and reference a brawl that took place on the streets of Ballaghaderreen last Saturday morning. I fully support the calls by Councillors Mich\u00e9al Frain and Liam Callaghan and many other local representatives for a stronger, more visible Garda presence on our streets. Law-abiding citizens deserve to feel safe on their streets and in their communities on a Saturday morning when they are out doing the shopping. The garda\u00ed serving those areas deserve the resources to do their job. I am asking that both of these matters be raised with the relevant Ministers. Rural communities deserve emergency and police services that meet their demands."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Duffy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Mark Duffy First, I welcome to the House my friend and new colleague Senator Ray McAdam. I congratulate him. I know the dedication he has given to public life. It is a huge sacrifice. It is not only a sacrifice for him, but also to his family. It is great to see his family and friends well turned out today. I congratulate Anne, Pat, Niamh and Iarlaith. It is a special day for them all. I acknowledge that. I wish to lend my support to the Irish Natura and Hill Farmers Association, INHFA. I attended a meeting last night in Kiltane in Bangor Erris to discuss a range of issues and concerns the organisation faces and has raised regarding the CAP discussions. There is a lot of fear at the moment about potential cuts to the farming sector and different stakeholders within the sector. It is important that the asks and requests made by the INHFA are made clear. A couple of points were discussed last night and raised with me, including the definition of a farmer, the flat-rate payment per hectare, the need to keep a minimum definition on the position of an active farmer, the need to have a single definition of an agricultural area and the protection of areas of national constraints, ANCs. It is something I have discussed with the Minister, Deputy Heydon, over the past 24 hours and he has made clear that it is at the discretion of the member state but that Ireland intends to protect it. However, it is very important that the issues being raised by farmers on the ground in areas like County Mayo, particularly the farmers in the Erris area, are listened to and addressed. There are some fears there, but there are also great opportunities to protect livelihoods that have come down through the generations. We need to ensure we protect this for the next renewing generation coming through. I also acknowledge Solar West, Mayo North East and Nofence Cattle Collar, which took part on the night. It was an excellent night that was very well run and hosted. I compliment them all on that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aubrey McCarthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Aubrey McCarthy I too express my congratulations to my colleague Senator Ray McAdam. I have known him for a number of years. He has visited my Lighthouse Homeless Caf\u00e9 and he gave us a Christmas dinner in St. Andrew's, where he certainly gave of his time. I congratulate him, his family and Tre Roberts, whom I see in the Gallery. I know the work he has also put in there. A request has been brought before the Department of education for the allocation of an additional six and a quarter hours per week for a special school in Kill, County Kildare, that gives supports to children with autism and complex needs. At the request of the National Council for Special Education, it increased its numbers by nearly 50%, from five classes to seven. Two new modular classrooms were added in September and enrolment has risen from 30 to 42. The school did exactly what the State requested of it but, unfortunately, the State has not done the same in return. The secretary has been working 28 and three-quarter hours per week. With the expansion, however, she has been allocated the same hours and they have not been increased. The principal was asked after the expansion to continue with the same hours for the secretary but, unfortunately, that is not doable. Anybody who works on the front line knows that answering the phone to an anxious parent and keeping the building running is the secretary's job, and in a special school, that role is also one of care and administration. I commend the principal, the staff and the secretary, who are holding all this together on goodwill. They did exactly what was asked of them, but goodwill is not a wonderful staffing model. I ask the Leader to raise this with the Minister for Education and Youth and to ask the Department to review this allocation of hours. All they are asking for is an additional six and a quarter hours. I do not think it is a big ask; I think it is a fair one."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robbie Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Robbie Gallagher Today, Monaghan IFA is holding a demonstration at Lakeland Dairies in Lough Egish, County Monaghan, to voice its concerns about the proposed cuts to the EU Common Agricultural Policy. The proposed cut to Ireland of \u20ac2.54 billion is staggering and very worrying. It represents a potential 24% reduction in the CAP budget for Irish farmers. Drilling down into that, in the part of the world I come from in Monaghan, it means \u20ac7.8 million will be lost every year on the farm. It means potentially 3,754 farm families will be affected, \u20ac11.2 million a year will be taken out of the local economy and 85 jobs will be at risk. In Cavan, it is even more stark, with \u20ac10.4 million going to be lost off the farm every year, affecting over 4,500 farm families and pulling \u20ac15 million out of the local economy. It is vital that we use our EU Presidency at this time to ring-fence and secure the funding and increase it for the CAP budget and Irish farmers. Farming is hugely important to this country. We need a CAP that is fair, supports farm families and encourages young farmers to stay on the land. The farming we have in this country is not just about agricultural output; it is about a way of life and who we are as a people. It is about our local communities and the support for those living in the communities. That is how important these negotiations are to our farm families. It is vitally important that we get that message through loud and clear to our EU partners. That is why I would be grateful if the Leader could, at his convenience, organise a debate in the House with the Minister for agriculture in order that we can make it crystal clear that these CAP negotiations are the most vital ever. This is about the future of rural Ireland and the small family farms to which we are all connected. It is about who we are as a people and our identity. It is that important."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-O'Reilly.S.1989-10-01","memberCode":"Joe-O'Reilly.S.1989-10-01","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Joe O'Reilly On his first day here, I congratulate Senator Ray McAdam on his election to the Seanad. In congratulating him, I will say that it was a huge achievement to have come here to the capital city of the country, his now adopted city, in 2002 and to ultimately become its Lord Mayor. That is a singular achievement and something he can have a lifetime pride in. All of his family can share in that lifetime pride. To then come here is a culmination of that. I welcome Niamh, Iarlaith and all of the family. We are particularly proud of Ray where I come from because his grandparents, Seamus and Mollie Clarke, were neighbours and close personal friends of mine in Cootehill. They were Anne's parents. They were close personal friends of mine for many years. In latter years, they were also friends of my wife. Mollie Clarke did a huge amount to develop camogie and other sports in County Cavan. Seamus Clarke was involved in civic and political activity in the county as well. I have no doubt that tradition is also very strong in Ray's dad's family but I am familiar with Anne's family. I just want to acknowledge that. To use a colloquialism, Ray did not lick it off the grass. In Cavan, we are very proud that eight Members of this Seanad are directly or indirectly connected to Cavan. Some have an immediate family connection, as in the case of Senator Nessa Cosgrove, who had the wisdom to marry a Cavan man. That goes right through to Senator Keogan. Senator Evanne N\u00ed Chuillinn's dad is a proud Cavan man. There are now eight Members of the Seanad who are directly associated with Cavan. I will make the Cathaoirleach aware that we are contemplating setting up a Cavan caucus. On another note, I am very happy that the Government has made the 10.5% offer to ICTU and the unions. I am happy that the talks are back on stream. I urge all sides to try to settle. I salute ICTU on the great efforts it is making to arrive at a solution and the very positive remarks Mr. Callinan made earlier today. My view is that we have an extraordinarily excellent public service in Ireland. From our hospitals to our schools and all other elements, all parts of our public service are exemplary. They are above politics and are committed to the public good. As the Leader and I have discussed privately, our excellent public servants deserve respect. I hope that respect will be shown in an amiable and positive outcome to the talks today. I would like the Leader to respond on that and to convey my strong opinion and the opinion of this House that a settlement is in the interests of the Irish people and that everything should be done by those on the Government side to achieve it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I look forward to receiving the Senator's letter regarding setting up a new caucus. I am sure it will cause some concerns in Government Buildings. If you include the entire constituency, one in six Senators are from Cavan-Monaghan so Senator O'Reilly will be leading quite a formidable caucus. I call on one of the members of this new caucus, Senator Tully."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pauline Tully","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Pauline Tully I also congratulate Senator Ray McAdam on his election to Seanad \u00c9ireann. It is a great honour, and I hope he really enjoys his time here. I welcome his family to the Chamber. It is, of course, important that I also acknowledge the very strong Cavan connection my colleague Senator O'Reilly has already outlined. A Seanad by-election to a vocational panel is open only to TDs and Senators to vote in. It is surprising and disappointing that 12 people did not vote. Now, maybe there were genuine reasons in some cases - for example, if there was a bereavement or an illness in the family - but we are proponents of democracy and we should cast our ballots. As regards a failure to cast a vote, we talk to our constituents and tell them every vote counts. One of my colleagues on Cavan County Council won his seat the first time by one vote, so it is really important that people vote in every election they are entitled to vote in. I want to raise today an issue about Tusla in Cavan and some concerns I have about it. One family who are engaging with Tusla concerning their teenager regularly ring the offices of Tusla and the receptionists tell them somebody will ring them back. Nobody rings them back. There have been four different social workers for this young person in the past two years, so there is no consistency and nobody who knows him really well. He has been put in an inappropriate placement that is aggravating his situation, yet there is no effort to find a more suitable placement for him. A plan was put in place around him which involved many organisations, including youth organisations, sporting organisations and Garda 365, all doing really good work, but there is no consequence for his not adhering to that plan because there is no overall social worker. One of the youth workers told me she regularly contacts the Tusla office about different young people and there seems to be no one ever there. I have concerns about failings in aftercare as well for some young people who have exited foster care. I have written to the CEO of Tusla outlining my concerns not only about this particular family but also about the situation in Cavan, which really needs to be highlighted as well. It is possibly not just to Cavan that this situation pertains; in many areas we just do not have enough social workers. We need to increase the number of social workers and give our young people a fair chance."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Evanne N\u00ed Chuilinn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Evanne-N\u00ed-Chuilinn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Evanne-N\u00ed-Chuilinn.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Evanne N\u00ed Chuilinn Cuirim f\u00e1ilte roimh an Seanad\u00f3ir Ray McAdam. I congratulate Senator McAdam and welcome him to Seanad \u00c9ireann. It was an absolute pleasure to canvass with him for the by-election, and I am delighted he has come through. We are delighted to have him here. It is a huge day for Niamh, Iarla and all his family and friends. I welcome the Senator to the Chamber and to the Seanad. We are coming to the end of the first ever national sports policy. It lasted ten years. It will reach its conclusion at the end of 2027, so now is the time for the next national sports policy to be written. The Department will go out for consultation early in the new year but in the meantime I have started some consultation with national governing bodies, stakeholders and local sports partnerships as well as the general public, clubs and representatives. I encourage everybody who is involved in sport in Ireland to have their say and use their voice about what they want Irish sport to look like in the next ten years. It is very easy for us to sit at committee meetings, council meetings or public meetings and give out about what we are not doing, whether it is in safeguarding or disability access to sport or whether it is in infrastructure or all-weather pitches. Let us stop giving out about what we are not doing and actually use our voice to input into the next national sports policy. I am doing my own consultation, as I said, which is very easy to find online, but the Department will obviously do its own in the new year with the national governing bodies. Every single voice at club level, within schools and families and among volunteers is just as important as national governing body voices, so I encourage everybody to use their voice. It will be the second ever national sports policy, and the more voices we hear represented in that policy, the better."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Anne Rabbitte","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Anne-Rabbitte.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Anne-Rabbitte.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Anne Rabbitte I echo the words of welcome to Senator McAdam. I look forward to working with him over the course of our time here. I welcome his family here as well. Last Saturday, I attended the Family Heart Foundation conference here in Dublin, which was part of the EU Presidency. It was co-hosted and sponsored by the Cro\u00ed Heart Foundation from Galway. The whole purpose of the conference was that it was about the EU Safe Hearts plan, which was launched last December. It was amazing to hear that there is some unspent money left in Brussels in the Cohesion Fund. In that regard, I thought there may be an opportunity for us to discuss having a pilot here in Ireland of early screening and early detection. Far too often, we talk about people who end up in hospital. Some 7,000 people in this country will have a heart attack or a stroke every year, at a minimum cost of \u20ac56 million. Imagine if the likes of Cro\u00ed could get access to some of that funding from the Cohesion Fund and do an early intervention. This time last year, Cro\u00ed came to the Oireachtas and held screening. It took our blood pressure and cholesterol and some of us were selected had our bloods taken. That is how I was diagnosed with Lp(a), which is a genetic disorder, a heart condition. I carry that, so if I gain too much weight, the chances are I am on the road to a heart attack, but I might never have known that if my bloods had not been taken. I would love to have a discussion on our cardiovascular strategy. I know the Minister for Health is doing great work in this area, but let us put Ireland on the map for accessing funding for early screening and prevention. There is a role for us here. We are small and we could do it very well."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I have to call on the Leader to respond, and I have seven Senators to go. We are supposed to start the next item in 15 minutes, which is mathematically impossible if we stick to the current rota. I ask everybody to take one minute, and I will be able to get everybody in."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Laura Harmon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Laura Harmon I sincerely congratulate Senator McAdam on his election. I will always remember hearing from Councillor Ali Field, who worked with him on Dublin City Council, that when he was Lord Mayor he took her son, James, for a spin in his car because he had heard that James liked cars. James has additional needs and she is constantly advocating for him, so I know how much that meant to her and to James. Kindness is underrated in politics. While we might disagree across these Houses, you cannot put a price on kindness, so I wanted to say that. Congratulations. I request that the Minister for Health come into the Chamber for a full debate on Cork University Hospital. Yesterday, 70 people were waiting for beds, many without sleep and many there for more than 24 hours, with bright lights, loud noises and risk increasing with every hour. Staff are working above and beyond but cannot do enough because of the staffing restrictions. There are two trauma bays vacant because of staffing, and there is a CT scanner that is not working because of staffing. We will come back to it the next day, but we need an urgent debate on Cork University Hospital."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach It might be appropriate to table it as a Commencement matter."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Manus Boyle","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Manus-Boyle.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Manus-Boyle.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Manus Boyle I welcome Senator Ray McAdam to the House, along with his family, his friends and his whole team. It is great to have him here. I want to raise concerns about the ongoing delay in releasing funds under the safe routes to school programme for Scoil Aodh Rua agus Nuala in Donegal town. There has been yet another frightening incident at the traffic lights, where a driver ran a red light. Thankfully, nobody was injured, but how many more red lights have to be run before action is taken? I want to be clear that many lives have been put at risk here for no good reason. We have children travelling to and from school every day. Parents should not have to worry about their children crossing the roads going to school. I would like the Minister to tell me whether funding has been approved for this project and, if it has not, why not. What is causing the delays? When will the work begin? I come in here and I have to raise the issues experienced by schools in Ballyshannon, Keeloges, Frosses, Dunkineely and Killaghtee and all the schools in Donegal. We seem to be left behind."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I call Senator Lynch. The issue is that everybody has asked to speak. Ray, you are very popular. This does not happen often. Everyone wants to speak."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eileen Lynch","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eileen-Lynch.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Eileen-Lynch.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Eileen Lynch I join my colleagues in welcoming our new colleague, Senator Ray McAdam, to the House today. I have known Senator McAdam for many years and I have seen his dedication to public life and to the life of a public representative. I have no doubt he will get on incredibly well here in the Seanad and have many interesting and valid contributions to make. I look forward to working with him. I welcome Niamh and Iarlaith and all his family here today, because it is a nice day for the family and for the supporters who have been there all along and watched the progression. I hope they enjoy their day here. I would like to mention contribution waivers across local authorities. As the Leader will be aware, there was a development contribution waiver for one-off developments during the Covid pandemic. It is still in place for multi-unit developments. The issue is that certain local authorities provide a rebate. For instance, Kerry County Council provides a rebate of 33% on contributions. Limerick City and County Council provides one of 5%. Cork County Council does not provide any. This is something we should invite the Minister to the House to discuss. I realise that local authorities have autonomy, but the circumstances are unfair. If you live in Rathmore and are on the Kerry side of the border, you can get 33% back, whereas if you are on the Cork side, you can get nothing back. The waiver is something we need to discuss and it needs to be introduced at national level."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mike Kennelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mike-Kennelly.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Mike-Kennelly.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Mike Kennelly I welcome Senator Ray McAdam to the House. I also welcome his family, extended family and, obviously, his supporters, who have put him in this position. I look forward to working with him. With Fine Gael in government \u2013 we heard enough about this today \u2013 I take this opportunity to recognise and congratulate the management and, most importantly, the dedicated staff of University Hospital Kerry on the tremendous progress being made in reducing trolley numbers. A 68% reduction compared to figures recorded in October 2025 is a remarkable achievement. Behind the figure is the hard work, commitment and professionalism of the staff, who continue to provide care to patients under significant pressure. This is a great example of what can be achieved when hospital management and front-line staff work together with one clear objective, namely, providing the best possible care for patients. Last week, there was a motion in the Lower House in relation to delays and patients on trolleys. We are bucking that trend. Also last week, the Minister of State, Deputy Kieran O'Donnell, officially opened a new 130-bed facility at Killarney Community Hospital, with a capacity of 50 long-stay beds, 50 short-stay beds and 30 dementia beds. I congratulate everyone involved in bringing this project to fruition and pay tribute to the staff who will provide the services. I thank the Minister for Health for delivering the facility. This is all good news, considering all the drama we hear every day coming in here. It is good healthcare news for the people of Kerry. I thank the Minister for coming to Kerry and providing the services. I thank the management and staff of University Hospital Kerry. Every other hospital is getting a beating. I thank the interim manager, Olivia Canty O'Rahilly, and the HSE's senior operations manager, Julie O'Neill. I also thank M\u00e1ire Flynn, the lead manager for beds in Killarney Community Hospital. This is a good news story about something that never gets recognised."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I thank the Senator. I call Senator Sarah O'Reilly."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eileen Flynn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eileen-Flynn.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Eileen-Flynn.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Eileen Flynn Is it not me?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach No, Senator Sarah O'Reilly was here before the Senator."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sarah O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Sarah O'Reilly Okay. I am going to leave my Order of Business matter until tomorrow."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I will explain things to the House because I know this looks a bit at odds with the general rule of thumb agreed by the Committee on Parliamentary Privileges and Oversight, which is two Government speakers for every Opposition speaker because that is the proportion. Therefore, a Senator who has arrived after another Senator might be called first. The system is intended to be fair to everyone. It looks a bit skewed because many more people than normal have shown up today. I call Senator O'Reilly."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sarah O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Sarah O'Reilly I am going to leave my Order of Business matter until tomorrow because time is too tight and I have a bit of a speech impediment. It will only be exacerbated. However, I welcome Senator McAdam to the House today. He canvassed me. I congratulate him. It is a great honour for him and his family. I know he has done a great amount of work as a councillor, which will help him to know what is going on. Normally, I am left until last. It is very odd for me to get to speak second last."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Again, the order of speaking is agreed by the Members of the House. It is generally a painstaking process based on the d'Hondt system, to be very technical about it, in terms of groups and alignments. When Senators arrive in the House, I try to call them as soon as I can, if possible, under the system. I now call Senator Brady."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paraic Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paraic-Brady.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Paraic-Brady.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Paraic Brady I do not mind going last. I, too, welcome our new colleague Senator Ray McAdam to the House. His election means 10% of Senators are from Cavan. Ray had Niamh wearing the Cavan colours here today, just to support Senator Joe O'Reilly and all the other Cavan people. Senator McAdam's family and friends are very welcome. I wish him well and look forward to working with him. Today I raise a legend, Johnny McEvoy, who has died at the age of 81. He was a true legend of storytelling, Irish folklore and song. He really has to be admired for what he did at the early age of 18. He supported The Rolling Stones in 1965 on their Irish tour. He was a frequent visitor to B\u00e9al na Bl\u00e1th which is what led to the \"Ballad of Michael Collins\" and the flight of the curlew, which is one of his most famous songs. He will be sadly missed in the music industry. Ar dheis D\u00e9 go raibh a anam."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach We remember a great legend of Irish music and a great gentleman as well."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eileen Flynn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eileen-Flynn.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Eileen-Flynn.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Eileen Flynn I welcome Senator McAdam to the House. His life will never be the same again. I hope he will consider voting with the Opposition a few times during his term. The Leader will not like this. I am going to ruffle some feathers following on from Simon Harris's comment at the weekend saying that people should not be long term on the dole. He never spoke about people with disabilities or why people are on the dole. There are 50,000 people in long-term unemployment. I know many people in their early 30s or 40s who have been failed. We did not all get the education Simon Harris got, unfortunately. There are many people who cannot read or write, etc. I would like a debate on social protection around people in long-term unemployment and what Fine Gael can do to support those people to get jobs if they cannot read or write. I would also like to call for a second debate on civil aid law. Following on from the dole, people cannot get access solicitors for free legal aid. The majority of the time it is people from very disadvantaged areas who cannot get assistance from a solicitor when they are in court. I would really like a debate on that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I welcome to the Gallery WBO European lightweight champion boxer Shauna Browne, a professional boxer from Clonmel. She is a guest of Deputy Mattie McGrath. She is most welcome to Seanad \u00c9ireann. I thank her for being here and congratulate her on his title. I call the Leader to respond to quite a long Order of Business."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Garret Ahearn Do I have one minute?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Well, you are the Leader-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Garret Ahearn I have one minute for 23 contributions."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach -----I think the Minister for justice is outside waiting."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Garret Ahearn I will not respond to every contribution; I will respond to three or four. Following on from Senator Flynn, we are more than happy to have a debate on the T\u00e1naiste's comments at the weekend. If she had read the line literally before the line she used, she would realise he did talk about social welfare being a safety net for people who need it. He did talk about how people with disabilities and other conditions require a safety net. We are talking about the 50,000 people who are not on disability and can work and need to be supported to work. In relation to that, Senator Keogan spoke about our Ard-Fheis. I am surprised she was not there. There were over 250 councillors there. It would have been a great opportunity for her to do the canvassing she does. It is open-----"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(Interruptions)."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Garret Ahearn -----and always open to people outside of Fine Gael. That is not what other parties do. We always have an open debate and are more than willing to talk about that. When she said where we are is of no credit to the Government, first of all she is acknowledging we are in a good place which is positive. If it had gone the other way around and the country was failing, would she blame the people? She gave credit to the people for the recovery; would she blame them for the failure? No, she would blame the Government. Now that it is doing well, which she acknowledges, surely the Government played some small role in that. Senator Joe O'Reilly asked directly that-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach The Leader, without interruption."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Garret Ahearn -----I respond on the public sector. I am surprised he was the only one that brought that up but I know it is of huge interest to him. We hope there will be an agreement before Thursday. No one wants a strike on Thursday. It is a hugely important day for the Government. I will relay to the Government the concerns expressed. They play a huge role in society and we need to make sure that the deal is agreed to on all sides. I know the Senator is very passionate about that. For Senator Tom Clonan, we will have a debate on the triple lock in time. There will be ample opportunity for people to give their views and for people like him to explain why he has a different view from what he held previously. For Senator Ray McAdam, I see Iarlaith is here at the moment as well. I want to say to Niamh that he did much better than my two sons in lasting in this room. I do not know if that is a good thing or not. It may mean he likes this room or this building, so it could be a fear for the future. I thank everyone for their contributions about our new Senator. I look forward to working with him and all of us in unity."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Order of Business agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"An tOrd Gn\u00f3 - Order of Business"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_12","debateType":"debate","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/76","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/76\/seanad\/2","houseCode":"seanad","stage":"2","isBillStage":true,"showAs":"Strategic Lawsuits Against Public Participation Bill 2026: Second Stage (Seanad)"}},"showAs":"Strategic Lawsuits Against Public Participation Bill 2026: Second Stage","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":6},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_12","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Shane Curley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Shane-Curley.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Shane-Curley.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robbie Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael McDowell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","memberCode":"Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Kelleher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Kelleher.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Garret-Kelleher.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Murphy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Conor-Murphy.S.2025-01-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question proposed: \"That the Bill be now read a Second Time.\""},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister for Justice, Home Affairs and Migration (Deputy Jim O'Callaghan) Ba mhaith liom comhghairdeas a ghabh\u00e1il leis an Seanad\u00f3ir nua, an Seanad\u00f3ir McAdam. Bh\u00edomar ag obair le ch\u00e9ile i gComhairle Cathrach Bhaile \u00c1tha Cl\u00edath agus n\u00edl aon dabht agam ach go mbeidh s\u00e9 ina Sheanad\u00f3ir an-\u00e9ifeacht\u00fail ar fad. I will start by congratulating the new Senator, Senator McAdam, and I wish him many happy years in the Upper House. I am sure he does not want to spend all of his years in the Upper House but I wish him well in this House and any other House he gets elected to. I am pleased to present to Seanad \u00c9ireann the Strategic Lawsuits against Public Participation Bill 2026 and I look forward to hearing the contributions of Senators. The Bill introduces protections for those targeted by strategic lawsuits against public participation, commonly known as SLAPPs. They are abusive legal proceedings brought not to vindicate a legitimate right or obtain genuine redress but to deter, restrict and prevent public participation. They are often characterised by an imbalance of power, with one party using the significant resources at its disposal to exert significant pressure on another through lengthy or complex legal processes. Those targeted by SLAPPs can include journalists, environmental rights defenders, media outlets, civil society organisations, human rights advocates or any person who contributes to public discourse. This can have a very negative effect on public interest reporting and debate, undermining freedom of expression, public access to information and democracy itself. The harmful impact of SLAPPs has been recognised at EU level, reflected in the adoption of the Commission's anti-SLAPP recommendation in 2022 and the entry into force of the anti-SLAPP directive in 2024. Together, these measures reflect a growing recognition of the need to protect public participation from abusive litigation. This Bill will complete transposition of the anti-SLAPP directive, which requires member states to introduce minimum procedural safeguards to combat abusive proceedings against public participation. While the directive is limited to civil and commercial proceedings with a cross-border element, the Bill takes a broader approach. It extends the same safeguards to all civil and commercial proceedings, whether cross-border or domestic in nature, thereby ensuring a consistent level of protection for individuals and organisations that may be subjected to SLAPPs. A number of the safeguards required by the directive have already been included in relation to defamation proceedings in Part 7 of the Defamation (Amendment) Act 2026, enacted by the Oireachtas earlier this year. Part 7 amended the Defamation Act 2009 to provide specific protections in defamation cases, an area in which SLAPP litigation can commonly arise. The Bill builds upon these protections and completes transposition in relation to both defamation proceedings and all other civil and commercial proceedings. For the purpose of consistency across all forms of civil and commercial proceedings, the Bill consolidates the legislative framework governing SLAPP protections. It repeals Part 7 of the Defamation (Amendment) Act 2026 and directly amends the Defamation Act 2009. This will ensure that the key protections against SLAPPs are referred to in the same legislation. I will now address the main provisions of the Bill. Sections 1 to 3 provide for the short title and commencement of the Bill, definitions and the repeal of Part 7 of the Defamation (Amendment) Act 2026. Section 4 outlines that Part 2 applies to proceedings brought against a person on account of his or her engagement in public participation. Section 5 provides for an obligation on the part of the defendant to inform the court where they consider that proceedings have been taken against them on account of their public participation. This ensures that the court is aware of the potential for proceedings to be abusive proceedings against public participation and that the procedures and protections of the Bill apply. Section 6 enables a court, at its discretion, to allow a person or body with a legitimate interest in safeguarding or promoting the rights of persons engaged in public participation to make submissions to the court and to assist the defendant in proceedings alleged to be a SLAPP. This seeks to ensure that SLAPP targets can obtain assistance from persons or organisations with relevant experience and expertise throughout proceedings that may be lengthy, complex and overwhelming. Section 7 provides that a court may, on application by a defendant, require a plaintiff to provide security for the defendant's costs or any damages claimed by the defendant if the court is satisfied that there is a prima facie case that the proceedings are abusive court proceedings, and that the requirement is in the interests of justice. Section 8 allows a defendant to seek early dismissal of proceedings relating to their engagement in public participation on the basis that those proceedings are manifestly unfounded. Where an application for early dismissal is made, the plaintiff is obliged to substantiate their claim so the court can determine whether or not it is manifestly unfounded. The striking-out of SLAPP proceedings at an early stage will ensure that SLAPP targets are not forced to ensure the lengthy and costly extent of a full trial. At the same time, the requirement that proceedings be \"manifestly unfounded\" mitigates the risk that those with genuine claims will be denied access to the courts. Sections 9 and 10 allow a defendant to apply to the court at any stage of proceedings, including where early dismissal of sought, for a declaration that proceedings taken against them are SLAPP proceedings. Where a court issues such a declaration, the court must take that declaration into consideration when making orders for costs. The Bill requires the court to consider the issue of costs as expeditiously as possible and allows the court to order the plaintiff to pay costs to the defendant on the more generous legal practitioner and client, or legal practitioner and own client, basis if it considers this to be appropriate. Section 11 enables a target of SLAPP proceedings to seek damages for an injury, loss or harm suffered as a result of those proceedings. Damages may be sought at the time an application for a declaration was made under section 9 or 10, or following the making of a declaration. This is a significant provision that recognises the extraordinary and abusive nature of SLAPP proceedings. Section 12 requires a court that has made a finding that proceedings are a SLAPP to direct that its written judgment be published on the website of the Courts Service, or, where there is no written judgment, that its order be published. In addition to having a deterrent effect, this will give greater clarity on the frequency of SLAPPs in Ireland and the types of proceedings used as vehicles for SLAPPs, data on which is currently limited. The publication of such judgments is not dissimilar from the legislative provision I introduced in respect to the Domestic Violence Judgments Register Act, which was enacted by the Houses of the Oireachtas earlier this year. The Bill also contains provisions to protect public participants domiciled in Ireland from SLAPP proceedings taken against them in non-EU countries. Section 13 prohibits the recognition or enforcement of judgments made in third country proceedings that will have been considered abusive court proceedings against public participation or manifestly unfounded if they had been initiated in this State. Section 14 allows targets of third country SLAPP proceedings domiciled in Ireland to seek a declaration that those proceedings are abusive proceedings against public participation within the meaning of the legislation. Where such a declaration is made, a defendant may also seek compensation for damages and costs incurred in the third country proceedings. Section 15 inserts a new Part 4A into the Defamation Act 2009. It replaces section 19 of the Defamation (Amendment) Act 2026, which is repealed by section 3 of the Bill. Part 4A consists of 12 provisions to be inserted into the Defamation Act 2009. Section 34A is an interpretation provision similar to that contained in section 2 of the Bill. Section 34B clarifies that Part 4A applies to defamation proceedings. Section 34C, 34CA, 34D to 34I, inclusive, and 34IA and 34IB mirror the provisions contained in sections 5 to 14, inclusive, which I have outlined. The distinction is that these provisions will apply specifically to defamation proceedings. This Bill will provide significant protections for those who engage in public debate and contribute to matters of public interest. It strikes an important balance, strengthening protections against abusive litigation designed to suppress public participation while safeguarding access to justice for those with legitimate claims. I am hopeful that, with the support and co-operation of the House, we can progress the Bill as quickly as possible, secure its enactment at an early date to bring these protections into force, and complete the transposition of the directive. Therefore, I commend the Bill to the House."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Shane Curley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Shane-Curley.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Shane-Curley.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Acting Chairperson (Senator Shane Curley) I thank the Minister. Before we proceed, I welcome Keegan Hanley to the Gallery today. He is doing transition year work experience with me this week. It is great to see a young person from my former school of St Brigid's College, Loughrea, up doing work experience in Leinster House. T\u00e1 f\u00e1ilte roimhe. We welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Ardagh. Anois, glaoim ar an Seanad\u00f3ir Gallagher."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robbie Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Robbie Gallagher Cuirim f\u00e1ilte mh\u00f3r roimh an Aire St\u00e1it chuig an Teach seo inniu. On behalf of the Fianna F\u00e1il Party, I welcome this debate and support the Bill, an important step in protecting press freedom, freedom of expression and our democratic values. Our democracy was hard won and should never be taken for granted. A free press and open public debate are fundamental to a modern democracy. Those who speak out, expose wrongdoing or contribute to matters of public interest must be able to do so without fear of intimidation or costly legal action. Strategic lawsuits against public participation, commonly known as SLAPPs, are abusive legal proceedings designed not to secure genuine justice but to silence critics, intimidate journalists and discourage public participation. They are often brought about by powerful individuals or organisations with significant financial resourcing, placing enormous financial and psychological pressure on those that they target. The consequences can be very serious indeed. SLAPPs can prevent important stories from being published, discourage legitimate criticism and create a chilling effect on public debate. Ultimately, they threaten press freedom, public access to information and democracy itself. The consequences of SLAPPs have been recognised at EU level. The Strategic Lawsuits Against Public Participation Bill will transpose the requirements of the EU directive in relation to this area. The directive requires member states to introduce minimum procedural safeguards to combat abusive proceedings against public participation in civic and commercial cases which have a cross-border dimension. Those protections include the early dismissal of proceedings that are clearly or manifestly unfounded and the ability for the target of SLAPPs to seek more generous costs and damages, as well as security for those costs and damages. These aim to protect persons who engage in public participation against court proceedings initiated to deter them. This is considered necessary to allow active participation in public debate and the provision of reliable information without undue influence. The protections of SLAPP will apply to domestic as well as cross-border proceedings. They will avoid a situation where lower levels of protection apply domestically. The directive will also allow judges to impose penalties or other equally effective measures on those initiating SLAPP cases as a matter of deterring such a form. It is also incumbent upon EU member states to refuse to recognise or enforce judgments from third countries that are manifestly unfounded or abusive. The Bill also builds on the protections already introduced though Part 7 of the Defamation (Amendment) Act 2026, extending these safeguards beyond defamation cases to all relevant civil and commercial proceedings. It consolidates the protections within the Defamation Act 2009 to ensure consistency. This legislation is about ensuring that the law cannot be weaponised to silence those who speak out on matters of public importance. It is about protecting journalists, media organisations, human rights defenders and ordinary citizens who contribute to public debate. It is equally important that these protections do not undermine the legitimate right of individuals to access the courts and pursue genuine claims. We in Fianna F\u00e1il support the Bill because a healthy democracy depends on people being free to question, criticise, investigate and hold those in positions of power to account without fear of being silenced through abusive legal action. We look forward to this Bill progressing through the House in due course."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael McDowell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","memberCode":"Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Michael McDowell I favour the introduction of this Bill. It is strange indeed that the directive, which gave rise to an amendment to the Defamation (Amendment) Act, which was passed this year, was not confined to simply defamation and that this Bill effectively acknowledges that, even though it does make specific provision toward the end of the Bill for defamation cases. I have a few things to say about SLAPP-type proceedings. It was hugely important that the present President of the United States, Donald Trump, decided to sue the British Broadcasting Corporation for a programme in relation to American politics, which he claims defamed him. He claimed to sue the BBC for a sum of $10 billion in the American courts. His clear purpose - and it was not the only time he has done this; he has threatened sections of the America media with similar claims - was to silence his critics. It struck me at the time that, if he persuaded a jury somewhere in America to uphold his claim of $10 billion, depending on how the BBC fared in defending the case, the decree would effectively be executed against the BBC in many different ways, for instance in relation to copyright entitlements arising in America and the like. His intention was clearly to intimidate the BBC. The BBC is not infallible and it apologised for an editorial error in relation to the particular complaint President Trump brought. However, let us be clear about one thing. Analysing Donald Trump, his personality and position in politics and so on, whether he has a reputation worth saving is something I have few doubts about. There is the matter of his personal behaviour, his behaviour towards women, opponents, the people of Gaza and the people of the West Bank, his behaviour in seizing the Head of State of Venezuela and his offer to bribe American voters with a cheque for the sum of \u20ac5,000 each if the Republicans won the recent mid-term elections. His character is pretty worthless and I am glad to say in this House that I have complete contempt for him. Some of my friends say they hope I am not hoping to travel to the United States in the near future. Maybe the mid-term elections will make it possible for me to travel to America. I do not know whether they will, but it is terrible, for instance, that the phones of Irish students proposing to go to the US to work on J1 visas are searched to see whether they have anything on their phones that is critical of America or its President. That shows how far American democracy had plummeted in terms of the protection of people's rights, the right of people in Ireland to have and express views about America and the like. The second thing about the Bill is that the European directive required us to introduce this protection against SLAPPs in respect of cross-border litigation in the European Union and from outside it. The curious thing about that is that, if it were simply implemented via a statutory instrument, it would have ended up with us having a two-tier system of protections. A wealthy Irish person, corporation or foreign corporation that carries on business here could engage in SLAPP litigation with impunity against Irish citizens, whereas someone abroad with a cross-border element as far as EU law is concerned would not be able to do so with immunity. A number of issues need to be thought through, such as the extent to which litigation would be regarded as SLAPP-type litigation of a domestic kind. Let me take a simple example which might touch a raw nerve for some people. The recent fuel protests brought into sharp focus the capacity for, say, an oil company to bring litigation against individuals who are organising blockades of its premises. The question would arise whether its claim for injunctions and damages would amount to abusive litigation for the purposes of this section. It could be said the kinds of people who threatened litigation in those circumstances could come up against a defence that oil protests, blockades and the like were legitimate public demonstrations of a defensible kind and were concerned with protecting the public interest. We can imagine the kind of dispute there could be in court. By making this into a domestic remedy as well as a cross-border remedy, we should be careful not to rob legitimate people of legitimate protections from the court simply because the defendants cast themselves as the victims of SLAPP litigation. The whole area of injunctions is something I would like to see discussed on Committee Stage. If somebody is seeking an injunction against, for instance, people taking direct action in respect of political aims such as afforestation in the mid-west or data centres, whether those people will be in a position to avail of the defences in this Bill is a matter of concern to me. There are people who abuse their rights in order to injure the economic interests of others. In general terms, I am in favour of the Bill for the reasons set out by other speakers. Protecting free speech and taking a stance against Trump-like litigation are worthwhile. I am glad we have the opportunity to legislate to protect those rights. I will be supporting the Bill."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Kelleher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Kelleher.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Garret-Kelleher.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Garret Kelleher Cuirim f\u00e1ilte roimh an Aire St\u00e1it, an Teachta Ardagh. Gabhaim bu\u00edochas l\u00e9i agus leis an Aire, an Teachta O'Callaghan, as ucht teacht isteach chuig an Seanad chun an Bille seo a phl\u00e9. Ar son Sheanad\u00f3ir\u00ed Fhine Gael, cuirim f\u00e1ilte roimh an mBille agus tugaimid \u00e1r gcuid taca\u00edochta d\u00f3. At its heart, this legislation is about protecting people who speak out on matters of public interest and ensuring those in positions of power cannot exploit the justice system to silence, restrict or punish them. The goal of a SLAPP is not necessarily to secure a legitimate legal result but to intimidate, financially exhaust, harass or silence someone who has spoken out. Imbalance of power is central to this issue. Those with significant financial resources can use the threat of lengthy and costly legal proceedings to bully individuals who may not have the means to defend themselves. The right to take legal action must never be used as a weapon to silence those who hold power to account. The Bill strengthens protections for journalists, investigative reporters, whistleblowers, human rights defenders, researchers, academics and individuals who participate in public debate. It protects our right to freedom of speech. I particularly welcome that the legislation goes beyond the requirements of the EU directive by extending safeguards to domestic, civil and commercial proceedings. It provides broader protection for the people of Ireland. It also introduces important practical protections. Courts can now permit third party organisations, including those with relevant human rights expertise, to assist defendants. There are provisions for security for costs and defendants can apply to have unfounded claims struck out without having to endure a full trial. They can also seek damages where abusive proceedings have caused them injury, loss or harm. I emphasise that this legislation does not prevent someone from taking legitimate legal action to protect their reputation or assert their rights. Rather, it targets proceedings whose principal purpose is to prevent or restrict public participation. Ultimately, the Bill is about protecting the democratic process, addressing imbalances of power and ensuring that people can speak out on matters of public interest without fear of being targeted and financially punished for doing so. I welcome the Bill and support its passage through the Seanad."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Murphy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Conor-Murphy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Conor Murphy I welcome the opportunity to speak on the Bill. We support the introduction of legislation to strengthen protections for individuals and organisations who find themselves facing abusive legal proceedings simply because they have spoken out to challenge wrongdoing or sought to hold those in positions of power to account. Some of these proceedings have had a chilling effect on public debate, journalism, environmental activism and the work of human rights organisations. We must ensure that our legal system cannot be misused as a means of silencing legitimate criticism or preventing matters of public interest from being brought out into the open. We welcome the additional protections in the Bill which build on the anti-SLAPP measures already introduced through the Defamation (Amendment) Act 2026. I particularly welcome the provisions around defence to seek the early dismissal of proceedings that are clearly unfounded. That is important because the financial and emotional burden of defending a case can, in itself, become a form of punishment regardless of the eventual outcome. We also welcome provisions allowing the courts to require security for costs, provide remedies in cases of abusive proceedings and facilitate interventions by human rights organisations and other bodies with relevant expertise. These organisations play an important role in defending fundamental rights and supporting people who may otherwise lack the resources to defend themselves. However, we must recognise that many of these organisations operate with limited funding. If we expect them to play a greater role in protecting people from abuse of litigation, we must consider how they can be properly supported. There is a wider issue here about access to justice. The courts must be accessible to everyone, not simply to those with the deepest pockets. In this State concerns have been raised about the financial and emotional burden faced by families who have had to take legal action to vindicate the rights of their children, including cases involving assessments of need. These families do not engage in litigation lightly. They are often parents who have exhausted every other avenue and feel they have no option but to turn to the courts to secure the services and supports their children need. I accept that such cases are not necessarily SLAPP proceedings, but they highlight a much wider issue about the imbalance of resources that can exist when ordinary people find themselves in legal proceedings against bodies with significantly greater financial resources. It is important that the Government reflect on this. It is also important that the protections contained in the legislation are effective in practice. People must have confidence that the legal system is fair, independent and accessible, regardless of whom they are challenging. Ultimately, the Bill must strike the appropriate balance between protecting people from abusive litigation and preserving the legitimate right of individuals and organisations to seek justice through the courts. The intention is not to prevent genuine legal claims from being heard. It is to prevent legal proceedings from being misused to intimidate, silence or financially overwhelm those participating in matters of public interest. We support measures aimed at strengthening protections against abusive legal proceedings. We welcome the objectives of the Bill and the additional safeguards it seeks to introduce. We also believe there is an opportunity as the legislation progresses to examine whether further improvements are needed to ensure the protections are practical, accessible and effective. Nobody should be afraid to speak out about wrongdoing, challenge powerful interests or raise legitimate concerns because they fear the financial consequences of doing so. A functioning democracy depends on people who question decisions, expose wrongdoings and participate freely in public debate."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Strategic Lawsuits Against Public Participation Bill 2026: Second Stage"}]}}]},"contextDate":"2026-11-10"},{"debateRecord":{"house":{"showAs":"34th D\u00e1il","committeeCode":"","houseCode":"dail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/house\/dail\/34","chamberType":"house","houseNo":"34"},"chamber":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/def\/house\/dail","showAs":"D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann"},"lastUpdated":"2026-11-11T19:21:58+00:00","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/main","formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/mul@\/main.xml"},"pdf":null},"date":"2026-11-10","counts":{"contributorCount":153,"divisionCount":1,"debateSectionCount":32,"questionCount":47,"billCount":0},"debateType":"debate","debateSections":[{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_2","debateType":"topical","bill":null,"showAs":"\u00c1bhair Shaincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Matters","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Mark Wall) I wish to advise the House of the following matters in respect of which notice has been given under Standing Order 39 and the name of the Member in each case: Deputies Michael Murphy and Mattie McGrath - To discuss the need to strengthen Uisce \u00c9ireann's accountability to D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann. Deputy Michael Cahill - To urgently intervene and treat the Ballyheigue water contamination issue as a state of emergency. Deputy Cathy Bennett - To discuss efforts to secure a public sector pay deal. Deputy Malcolm Byrne - To discuss measures to tackle the rate of youth unemployment. Deputy Aidan Farrelly - To discuss the sports capital grant programme in respect of soccer clubs in County Kildare. Deputy Louise O'Reilly - To discuss gaps in support for widows and bereaved partners. Deputy Shane Moynihan - To discuss the need to ensure full provision of NEPS in schools across Lucan, Clondalkin, Palmerstown, Rathcoole, Newcastle and Saggart. Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa - To discuss the way in which local specialist music retailers can become approved suppliers to schools. Deputies Mark Wall and Brian Stanley - To discuss the ongoing overcrowding on train lines serving Kildare South and the mid-west. Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh - To discuss the loss of essential clerical support staff from Belmullet Community Hospital and Swinford District Hospital. Deputy William Aird - To discuss staffing matters within the HSE, particularly the issue of graduate nurses' contracts. Deputy Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire - To discuss the need for footpaths from Waterfall village to Bishopstown. The matters raised by Deputies Michael Murphy and Mattie McGrath, Rose Conway-Walsh, William Aird, Malcolm Byrne, Mark Wall and Brian Stanley have been selected for discussion."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"\u00c1bhair Shaincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Matters"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_3","debateType":"topical","bill":null,"showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":false,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_4","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Water Services","counts":{"speechCount":12,"speakerCount":4},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_4","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Murphy.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Michael-Murphy.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mattie McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Cummins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Cummins.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"John-Cummins.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Murphy.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Michael-Murphy.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Murphy I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Cummins, for taking this Topical Issue matter. On Tuesday last myself and my Oireachtas colleagues from south Tipperary met with the CEO of Irish Water and his leadership team such is the crisis in the water supply across the constituency of Tipperary south. The CEO described Tipperary as its most challenged area. That in itself tells a story. We have tens of thousands on a boil water notice. Some of those are on a do not consume notice for a period of time. There are multiple outages and very poor communication. Cordangan, which supplies Tipperary town's population of 5,000, has been on a boil water notice since February of this year. The Ardfinnan supply, which supplies the bulk of Cahir and surrounding areas and comes into the west of Clonmel, is on a boil water notice since June this year. For a period of time those 11,000 customers are on a do not consume notice. There are multiple outages across Clonmel and huge changes across Clonmel, with large parts of Carrick-on-Suir without water as well. This is a significant public company in receipt of significant funding from taxpayers and offering an essential service. Yet, it remains unaccountable to D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann. It is extraordinary to think that I, as a Member of Parliament, cannot table a parliamentary question. This needs to change. Everyone in this House of democracy agrees with that. My question to the Minister of State is: how can we make this happen?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mattie McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mattie McGrath I thank the Ceann Comhairle for accepting this Topical Issue matter today. South Tipperary's water crisis has exposed a serious failure of accountability at the heart of our water governance system. Families and businesses were left in the dark while agencies passed the responsibility from one to another. I am speaking about the Ardfinnan scheme. We know that the HSE was informed about aluminium exceedance on 9 September this year but a do not consume order was not issued until 9 October, which was a month later. During that period, more than 60 of the 72 samples exceeded guideline levels with some exceedance up to 12 times EU limits. It is shocking. It was two and a half times the WHO limits. The public deserves answers as to why it was more than a month before the do not consume notice was issued. Who knew? When did they know? Why was action not taken sooner? Who made the decision to wait for a month before issuing a warning? The HSE said it is a matter for the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA. The EPA says it does not provide public health advice and directs questions back to the HSE. The Minister for Health says it is an operational matter for Uisce \u00c9ireann. The role of the Commission for Regulation of Utilities, CRU, has been virtually invisible throughout the crisis. The obvious questions are: who is accountable, who is going to be accountable and who is going to take charge of this? From the public's perspective, that was shocking. We had a meeting in Clonmel last night covering the whole of south Tipperary. I salute the committee there, which is working very hard under Richie Gleeson and Joe Hawkins. Indeed, we all attended to listen to people. In Cordangan in Tipperary, the well went down in February. If my well or anyone else's went down, it would be fixed by now. Uisce \u00c9ireann has not fixed it and we will not have water for Christmas. It is like waiting for Santy Claus. We met the CEO. He left after 50 minutes. We want another meeting with him. There is no responsibility or accountability; the Minister of State's former colleague, Phil Hogan, set this up in such a way. Please, we must make somebody accountable. We must have answers for the public, county councils, including local councillors, and Oireachtas Members. It is not happening at the moment. That is not right."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Cummins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Cummins.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"John-Cummins.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage (Deputy John Cummins) I thank the Deputies for raising these important matters. The Minister, Deputy James Browne, sends his apologies for not being in a position to answer this Topical Issue in person. Uisce \u00c9ireann is the national authority for water services and a statutorily independent body with responsibility for all aspects of water services, as prescribed by the Water Services Acts. It was formed and registered under the Companies Acts and is a commercial State company. Neither the Minister, Deputy Browne, nor I have any operational role. That is a matter for Uisce \u00c9ireann. These arrangements are not particular to Uisce \u00c9ireann. They apply to the generality of State bodies that have statutorily assigned functions that are not, as a result, functions of a Minister of the Government. However, given the level of Exchequer funding provided to Uisce \u00c9ireann, it is subject to additional layers of governance and accountability by the Oireachtas, including audit by the Comptroller and Auditor General and accountability to the Committee of Public Accounts. There are also requirements for bodies funded by the State to have appropriate systems in place for the provision of information regarding their operations to Oireachtas Members, as detailed in Circular 25\/2016, the protocol for the provision of information to Members of the Oireachtas by State bodies under the aegis of a Department. Uisce \u00c9ireann has a dedicated team to deal with representations and queries from public representatives. However, it is true that this engagement needs to improve significantly. It is something that I have addressed in my meetings with it over the last number of months. While progress is being made, significantly more work remains to be achieved. Uisce \u00c9ireann has also acknowledged that its engagement with public representative needs to improve and has informed me that it is in the process of taking additional steps to improve both the timing and quality of responses to inquiries made by elected representatives. Turning to south Tipperary in particular, Deputy Michael Murphy has raised the ongoing issues with me in person over the last number of weeks. I have made inquiries on behalf of him and Deputy Mattie McGrath and have been informed that Uisce \u00c9ireann issued seven press releases since 9 October and communicated extensively and urgently with elected representatives on the matters that are affecting their communities. The \"do not consume\" notice for customers on the Ardfinnan regional water supply scheme was recently lifted following consultation with HSE and the completion of critical works at Goatenbridge water treatment plant. However, the boil water notice remains in place and the public in south Tipperary should adhere to the guidance until a further update is provided by Uisce \u00c9ireann. Uisce \u00c9ireann has said that its focus now is on lifting the boil water notice as quickly and safely as possible. The completion of the works at the water treatment plant is an important step. Further testing and monitoring is necessary to provide the evidence required, in consultation with the HSE, to determine when the boil water notice can be lifted safely."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mattie McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mattie McGrath I could not make it up. I thank the Minister of State for being here but the Minister, Deputy Browne, should be here. I have not seen the like of it. How many press releases did the Minister of State say that Uisce \u00c9ireann had issued? Press releases will not give us clean water, lift a boil water notice or fix the burst pipes. I could not make this up. I have met the Pope. I have met the President of America. That was much easier than meeting the invisible CEO of Uisce \u00c9ireann. Uisce \u00c9ireann is not accountable to anyone. It is like Comical Ali during the Iraq War. When the bombs were falling down on him, he was issuing press releases. This is total baloney. There is a democratic deficit and it must be addressed. I have drafted a water services Bill, called the accountability Bill 2026, to establish clear accountability for Uisce \u00c9ireann to the Minister - that will be the Minister of State if the Minister is not available - and the principle is simple: no public body should be beyond democratic scrutiny. That goes without saying. No public body should avoid accountability by using operational measures. We have to have clear measures like this. No public utility should be able to preside over a fiasco like Uisce \u00c9ireann is in south Tipperary."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Mark Wall) I thank the Deputy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mattie McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mattie McGrath The old adage was, \"Where Tipperary leads, Ireland follows\". If Ireland follows what we are doing with our water, it will be a complete and utter catastrophe."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Mark Wall) I call Deputy Murphy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mattie McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mattie McGrath We need Uisce \u00c9ireann to be reined in and be accountable to this House and, ultimately, the Minister."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Murphy.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Michael-Murphy.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Murphy I, too, attended that public meeting. It was attended by hundreds in the Talbot Hotel last night. Constituents of mine are angry and frustrated. There is huge anxiety within the community, particularly among vulnerable users, many of whom my office engages with on a weekly basis. I am reminded of the T\u00e1naiste's contribution on 2 July last when he said: ... it is my very clear view that Uisce \u00c9ireann should be [more] accountable to D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann through parliamentary questions [and select committee]. I do not understand why it is not. Does the Minister of State agree with what the T\u00e1naiste said in this Chamber on 2 July? It is extraordinary to think that I am a policymaker and a legislator, and we have a public utility in receipt of billions of euro that is not accountable to this house of democracy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Cummins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Cummins.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"John-Cummins.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy John Cummins I understand the Deputies' frustration on behalf of their communities, which are being impacted as a result of the ongoing issues. There is no question that there is an information deficit and the response from Uisce \u00c9ireann is not where it needs to be in terms of the information that is provided to all Members of this Chamber. I agree with the T\u00e1naiste in that regard. As I said in my opening contribution, though, I have raised this and there is an acknowledgement within Uisce \u00c9ireann that it is not where it needs to be. We want to get to a situation where the information that is relayed to Members of the Oireachtas is accurate and done in a timely fashion and that Uisce \u00c9ireann is responsive to the needs and requests of Members of this House and the Seanad. When there is an issue, there is a call centre within Uisce \u00c9ireann that the public can reach out to-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mattie McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mattie McGrath It is a waste of time."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Cummins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Cummins.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"John-Cummins.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy John Cummins The Deputy might let me make the point. Yes, there is a phone number that people can call, but because I have been a public representative for over 16 or 17 years, I know that the phone call is oftentimes to the public representative. The Deputies have to be responsive to their communities as well and the only way they can do that is by having the correct and timely information. It is also true to say that Uisce \u00c9ireann is responsible for appearing before the Committee of Public Accounts and subject to audit by the Comptroller and Auditor General. I sat on the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage. The officials have appeared before the committee as well as appearing before the Joint Committee on Infrastructure and National Development Plan Delivery. The priority has to now be in terms of lifting the boil water notice. Testing and monitoring are ongoing in the area and that will be continued to be prioritised by Uisce \u00c9ireann. I can continue to engage with both Deputies offline."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Water Services"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_5","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Health Services Staff","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_5","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Murnane O'Connor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mattie McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh I want to outline for the Minister of State today the impact that the dead hand of the Minister for Health is having on healthcare delivery in County Mayo, starting with clerical support staff. They are essential to safe, accessible community healthcare. Their roles must get agency conversion approval in order to maintain clinical capacity in rural healthcare services. Agency conversions must get approval before the existing clerical officer contract finishes in Swinford. I am talking about the hospitals of Swinford and Belmullet. I am talking about the clerical positions, of which there is one in each hospital. Those posts represent a tiny amount of money but provide a lot of support. In Swinford, for example, one person supports five physiotherapists and two speech and language therapists. In Belmullet, one clerical post supports several different therapists and medical staff. They are agency staff and because of the dead hand of the Minister, they are not being allowed to convert those posts into full-time positions. Patients are now facing longer waits and rescheduled appointments as staff are no longer available to manage referrals, records and scheduling. The physiotherapists, public health nurses and other clinicians cannot simultaneously do their jobs, manage patient-facing workloads and also absorb clerical duties. Every hour spent on administration is an hour not spent on treating patients. The communities in Belmullet and Swinford already face geographical and transport barriers when accessing healthcare. Removing local support disproportionately impacts rural patients in these cases. The promise of care closer to home is completely undermined when the staff who keep the local services functioning are withdrawn. One post may look minor on a national staffing spreadsheet but it is crucial to the day-to-day running of a rural healthcare facility. The clerical officers in Swinford and Belmullet have built up months of practical knowledge of local patients, referral pathways and physiotherapy services. The loss of experienced staff means a loss of that institutional knowledge, of continuity and of relationships that cannot be replaced immediately. It makes no sense to lose staff who are already performing essential duties while their posts await agency conversion approval. It is a complete waste of money as well. Through my correspondence with the HSE, I have received confirmation that these posts are in an agency conversion approval system but no firm decision date has been provided. Agency conversion is subject to national pay and staffing controls, budgetary restrictions and available funding. This is the dead hand of the Minister. This matter is urgent because I have been made aware that the current clerical support in Swinford is due to finish tomorrow but the agency conversion cannot take place unless the role is active. I am calling on the Minister of State to relay to the Minister for Health the need for immediate approval and funding of agency conversion for the posts in Belmullet and Swinford, without further delay. I would also like to remind the Minister that there are healthcare assistant posts in Belmullet hospital that have been waiting four years to transfer from agency to full-time staff. The positions are there and are permanent but the Minister insists on keeping them as agency staff. She must restore the appropriate clerical cover on site during the approval process rather than transferring the clerical duties to clinical staff."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Murnane O'Connor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor) I thank Deputy Conway-Walsh for raising the issue of clerical support at Belmullet Community Hospital and Swinford District Hospital. I can hear the Deputy's passion and I do understand that she is in an area where there are concerns. I am taking this issue on behalf of the Minister for Health and I recognise the importance of both hospitals to their communities. I am aware of the important role that they play in their local communities for families and for everyone involved. The concerns that the Deputy raises today have implications for patients and clinical staff. Belmullet is a 13-bed facility that can cater for step-down, respite and palliative care, providing an important service. Swinford District Hospital is a 40-bed model 1 rehabilitation and community inpatient facility. As part of the HSE's ongoing measures to reduce reliance on off-framework agency staffing, one whole-time equivalent, WTE, agency administrative post in Swinford District Hospital was reduced to 0.5 WTE. The HSE has advised that administrative duties associated with the reduced hours are currently being managed locally through existing staffing arrangements. In Belmullet Community Hospital, the agency administrative post remains in place at one WTE and the HSE has advised that there are no issues currently arising in respect of administrative staffing. The management of staffing and the allocation of resources within these facilities are operational matters for the HSE. That does not diminish the importance of the concerns raised for patients and families who need confidence that local services have the support necessary to deliver safe and effective care. Clerical and administrative staff make an important contribution to patient care. Their work supports records management, communications and the scheduling of the day-to-day operation of services. Appropriate administrative support helps clinical staff to focus on the work they are trained to do. It should therefore be considered as part of the overall staffing needs of a service, rather than in isolation. The Deputy has raised concerns about changes to clerical support and the implications for clinical staff. I understand the region is dealing with financial challenges at the moment which may be impacting on recruitment decisions. There are some challenges and I am sure the Deputy is aware of that. My expectation is that the HSE considers the full-service implications of any staffing changes and ensures that appropriate staffing supports are in place. The focus must be on maintaining patient care and making effective use of staff across both hospitals. On the wider recruitment position, there is no blanket recruitment freeze. Recruitment, including the replacement of existing staff, can continue within approved pay allocations, subject to the necessary approvals. This does not mean that every vacancy is automatically filled. The HSE must prioritise recruitment according to patient need, service requirements and resources available. Additional recruitment approval requirements apply to HSE West and North-West as part of the measures to address regional overspending. I recognise that these requirements form part of the context in which local staffing decisions are being made. They provide a process for assessing recruitment proposals on the basis of service need, patient safety risk and affordability. In applying these controls, the HSE must take account of the support needed to maintain essential services, including the contribution of administrative staff to patient care. The objective is to align expenditure with approved funding while protecting essential services and making the best use of available resources. The HSE remains responsible for the delivery of services and for assessing the management of patient safety risks. Financial oversight and the effective delivery of care must be considered together."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh The problem is that the Minister is wasting money hand over fist by not having the services available in the community for a small cost. That is why you have the back-up in Mayo University Hospital. You cannot send people home without having the therapies and supports in the local community. It costs multiple times more to do that. This carry-on is happening in hospitals because the Minister obviously did not allow enough for existing levels of service. She just did not do that. I do not know if she fully understands the impact of that in terms of overcrowding, ambulances queuing up outside Mayo University Hospital and people staying in beds longer than they should because services are not available in the community. I listened to the Fine Gael Ard-Fheis at the weekend, and I heard talk about the dole. I want the Minister of State to ask the Minister why she is forcing young nurses onto the dole who were given jobs in Mayo University Hospital and in Sligo and Galway hospitals. They are now being told the jobs are not going to start after all. Why are we pushing nurses and clinical staff onto the dole and then not doing within the community what we need to do by putting supports in there? I do not know if it is that the Government does not understand the systems or if it has wrecked the systems to the point where things are collapsing. I am telling the Minister of State that healthcare delivery in Mayo is collapsing and the workers are collapsing with exhaustion. The Minister is standing back to say that the Government does not have enough money for the west and the north west. She had better make the money available. There is money there to waste. She insists on the continuation of waste while she is presiding over what she is presiding over here."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Murnane O'Connor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor I thank the Deputy. I can always say, working with the Minister, that patient care and delivery is always very important for all of us. I recognise the concern is about staffing decisions, which means, in practice for patients, the staff delivery of care at Belmullet and Swinford. The Deputy is talking about clerical supports that help clinical staff to focus on patient care and contribute to the effective running of services. My expectation is that the HSE considers wider benefits than assessing staffing needs at both hospitals so that available resources are used effectively to support patients and staff. I understand that the concerns the Deputy has brought up today are very important. I know the commitment from the Minister, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, and from all of us in the Department of Health. I will raise these concerns. The Deputy can be assured that I will have the HSE respond directly to the Deputy on the issues raised in both Belmullet and Swinford. I assure the Deputy that there is access to safe, effective care. The staffing decision supports and the objectives are important. Rather than reading out the reply again, it is important to say the Deputy can be assured that I will have the HSE come back to her. I will go back to the Minister, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, and highlight the concerns the Deputy raised today. As someone whose daughter is a nurse, I appreciate the work done by our nurses, clerical staff and everybody in the HSE. As the Deputy said, timely access to services is important. The HSE is saying it is working on them. I will come back to the Deputy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mattie McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Mattie McGrath) I thank the Ceann Comhairle and her team and whatever other committee decided to change the Topical Issue Debate to this time of the day. It is much more functional for everybody, including the staff."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Health Services Staff"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_6","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Hospital Staff","counts":{"speechCount":31,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_6","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Murnane O'Connor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mattie McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy William Aird I am raising the concerns of 36 newly qualified nurses who have completed their university education, undertaken clinical placements and obtained professional registration. They are still waiting for contracts and commencement dates for positions at the midlands regional hospitals in Portlaoise, Mullingar and Tullamore. These graduates completed their HSE recruitment process in June. They are qualified, registered and ready to work but they are unclear about when they can begin their careers. How has this situation been allowed to arise? In February 2024, the HSE announced that nursing and midwifery graduates would be offered permanent employment following completion of their courses and their placements. That commitment was reinforced through engagement with the unions in 2025. These graduates had every reason to expect a clear route to employment. Some have signed rental agreements and made financial commitments in anticipation of starting work. I appreciate that the HSE operates within an allocated budget. However, financial controls must be aligned with workforce planning and the safe delivery of healthcare. It is unacceptable that recruitment campaigns proceed without clear commencement dates. There is also the question of value for money. If the midlands hospitals have nursing vacancies, they are relying on agency nurses while qualified graduates are waiting for permanent employment. Can the HSE explain why permanent appointments cannot proceed and whether agency expenditure represents the best use of public funds? I also want clarity on accountability. Under the HSE regional structure, responsibility for staffing and budgets has been devolved to health regions. If hospitals are identifying staffing needs but cannot make appointments due to financial restrictions, who has the authority to resolve this problem? The Minister's statement on 15 October indicated that there is no general recruitment embargo but there are strengthened controls in four health regions. What controls affect graduate nurses' appointments to the three midlands hospitals? It is welcome that 974 graduate nurses and midwifes nationally have confirmed start days. I welcome that approximately 834 are expected to commence before the end of the year. That is progress, but it does not address the circumstances of these 36 graduates. I am asking the Minister of State to address these matters directly. First, can she immediately clarify to me when these 36 graduates will be offered contracts and commencement dates? Second, will she ask the HSE to provide a breakdown of approved and funded vacancies at Portlaoise, Tullamore and Mullingar? Third, what safeguards will be introduced to ensure future graduate recruitment campaigns are properly aligned with funding posts and working requirements? We want nurses to build their careers in Ireland and make a contribution to our health service. We cannot invest in training healthcare professionals and then force them to find employment abroad. These graduates deserve certainty about when they can begin their careers. I have asked the Minister of State questions and would appreciate the answers."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Murnane O'Connor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor I thank Deputy Aird for the opportunity to address the House on staffing matters within the HSE, particularly the issue of contracts for graduate nurses and midwives. I am taking this Topical Issue on behalf of the Minister for Health, Deputy Carroll MacNeill. The Deputy can be assured I will take his concerns back to her. The HSE knows how many nurses and midwives are due to graduate each year, and must plan its recruitment accordingly. Retaining these graduate nurses and midwives is essential to the future of the health service and continues to be a priority for the Minister. However, recruitment must also be strategic, matching graduates to the services and locations where the need is greatest while being aware of the impact on the overall pay bill. The latest data provided by the HSE indicates that nationally, there are 1,375 graduate nurses and midwives, of whom 1,145 have been offered positions to date, with more than 1,000 accepting. This equates to a national offer rate of 83%. The Deputy\u2019s health region, the Dublin and midlands region, has advised there are 105 graduate nurses and midwives, of whom 97 have been offered positions and 88 have accepted. This means that more than 92% of graduates in the region have received an employment offer. In addition, the Department issued approval last week for the recruitment of all remaining graduate nurses and midwives included in the submission received from the Dublin and midlands region. This approval was granted in response to the applications received the previous week. There is no recruitment embargo in the HSE, and recruitment has not been stopped. Strengthened recruitment controls are in place in four regions, including Dublin and the midlands, to ensure that appointments are affordable, properly prioritised, and directed to areas of greatest patient need and service need. I was concerned to hear recent reports that offers made to newly qualified nurses were subsequently withdrawn or delayed. The Deputy raised this issue. This is not acceptable and is not how we should be treating our graduates. The HSE must make every effort to provide employment opportunities for nursing and midwifery graduates but it is important that offers are made in the right locations with the necessary approvals in place. A key part of this strategic approach must be to prioritise direct recruitment into services where vacancies are being filled through sustained agency usage. Nationally, agency expenditure was \u20ac536 million in the eight months to the end of August, 11.7% above budget limits. Recruiting graduates directly into roles currently being filled through agency staffing would help retain newly qualified professionals in the public health service, build a more stable permanent workforce, support safe care and service capacity, and deliver better value for the overall pay bill. This is against a backdrop of sustained investment in the health workforce. HSE staffing has increased by almost 30,000 whole-time equivalents since December 2020, with nursing and midwifery accounting for a substantial share of that growth, up 9,924 over the same period. The priority must now be to build on that investment by retaining graduate nurses and midwives, strengthening the permanent workforce, and reducing reliance on agency staffing, while ensuring recruitment remains aligned with service need and the overall pay bill. The Department is engaging closely with the HSE to monitor the recruitment of graduate nurses and midwives. While individual appointments, contracts and commencement dates are operational matters for the HSE, the Department expects these decisions to be processed promptly and graduates to be given clear and timely information regarding an employment offer."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy William Aird I thank the Minister of State for her response, but I must bring my question back to the immediate circumstances of the 36 new nursing graduates. These are qualified, registered nurses who have completed their training and successfully progressed through the HSE recruitment process. Their question is simple: when will they start work? I refute what the Minister of State has said. I am too long on the road to accept it. These 36 nurses are out there and still do not have contracts of employment. I need specific answers from the Minister of State about Portlaoise, Tullamore and Mullingar. Can she confirm that the HSE will urgently review the 36 cases, identify the approved and funded vacancies and provide realistic commencement dates? I also want transparency around staffing costs. Are these hospitals paying for agency nurses while qualified graduates are waiting to take up permanent positions? If so, is that financially justifiable? There is a wider lesson here. The HSE knows how many nursing students are completing their courses each year. Workforce needs are predictable. I am not asking for appointments to unfunded posts. I am suggesting that graduate recruitment must be properly co-ordinated with hospital staffing requirements and available funding. I also raise the position of a children's occupational therapist in County Laois, which has been vacant for three years and has been frozen yet again. This position was recruited and accepted, but the offer has now been withdrawn by the HSE. In a week where two families from County Laois have already approached me about occupational therapy services for their children, I find this situation to be totally unacceptable. I am asking the Minister of State to investigate this vacancy as a matter of urgency and to revert to me on behalf of the children of County Laois."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Murnane O'Connor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor I again thank the Deputy for raising this important issue. It is important for us to get out the information. Retaining newly qualified nurses and midwives is essential to the future of the health services and remains a clear priority. The latest figures show that 83% of graduates nationally have received employment offers and more than 1,000 have accepted them. Work is continuing to offer posts to the remaining graduates and to confirm start dates. I will read this out to the Deputy again. There is no-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy William Aird There is no point in reading it back."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Murnane O'Connor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor -----recruitment embargo."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy William Aird What about the 36?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Murnane O'Connor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor Recruitment has not stopped."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy William Aird It has."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Murnane O'Connor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor The Department issued approval last week to recruit all graduate nurses and midwives that the Dublin and midlands regions have requested. That is the information I am giving here."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy William Aird What does the Minister of State mean by \"requested\"? There are still 36 nurses there with no offer."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mattie McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Mattie McGrath) The Minister of State without interruption."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Murnane O'Connor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor Last week there were decisions-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy William Aird You know-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mattie McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Mattie McGrath) Please, a Theachta."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Murnane O'Connor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor What I will do-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy William Aird Those 36 nurses are still unemployed."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mattie McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Mattie McGrath) Please."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Murnane O'Connor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor Last week, decisions were made in that regard. I understand. I know. My daughter is a nurse so I understand."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy William Aird I confirmed that this morning, to be fair."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mattie McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Mattie McGrath) Speak through the Chair, please."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy William Aird I confirmed it this morning."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Murnane O'Connor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor The Deputy is right."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy William Aird Yes, I am right."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Murnane O'Connor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor He needs that information. As I said, the HSE must make every effort to provide employment opportunities for graduates. As I said, last week, all graduate nurses and midwives that the Dublin and midlands regions have requested have been sorted. With regard to the 36 nurses the Deputy has asked about specifically, I will ensure he gets an answer from the HSE and the Department of Health. The Deputy also spoke about an occupational therapist. I will certainly bring back that issue to the Minister and the HSE. I thank the Deputy. All of us must appreciate the great work that our nurses and staff do. It is important for us. The Deputy can be sure, and I can say this on my behalf and on the behalf of the Minister, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, that all of us in the Department of Health are committed to getting this sorted."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy William Aird Is the Minister of State saying to me-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Murnane O'Connor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor I will come back to the Deputy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy William Aird -----that she will come back to me about the 36 nurses?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Murnane O'Connor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor Yes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy William Aird I thank the Minister of State."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Murnane O'Connor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor I will."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Hospital Staff"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_7","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Youth Unemployment","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_7","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Malcolm Byrne I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Dillon, for taking this issue. He will be aware that the economy is doing well and, in general terms, we talk about the fact that we have full employment. However, I have a serious concern that the rate of youth unemployment is beginning to creep up again. Youth unemployment is defined as unemployment among those aged between 15 and 24. It is now recorded at 11.5%. That is lower than the EU average but I still believe the reason it is at that rate must be a cause for concern. We need to examine the factors behind that and to examine in detail whether there are specific sectors of society and the economy where this is acute. The evidence, although it is not detailed, is that we have a number of urban pockets of disadvantage. It is particularly acute in some of the regions, especially along the Border, in the north west and in the midlands. There is a problem with recent graduates, especially in certain fields. Some of that relates to the experience trap but it is also evidence that we are not seeing the same level of graduate recruitment in certain areas as we did. I have a particular concern about this because it means young people do not have the experience of work that they should have but also that they may become increasingly alienated from the broader society. The rate in Ireland is 11.5% but the EU rate is 15.5%. In countries like Romania, the rate is 30% while in France and Italy the rate is now above 20%. In France there is obviously a particular concern about alienation among that young cohort. Something that particularly frightened me was that in the most recent polling in France voters aged 18 to 24 are turning to the populists as 45% of them said they would back M\u00e9lenchon in the next presidential election and 30% said they would back Le Pen. When groups of young people are not given the opportunity so many of us have had of a first job, of training, of an apprenticeship or of going into work as a graduate, then people become alienated. What can we do to address this? The reasons people become unemployed are complex. To the T\u00e1naiste's point, I agree work should always pay and people who are going to work should always be rewarded but it is not a simple matter that people are necessarily refusing employment. There has been a lot of very good work done on this by the National Youth Council of Ireland and youth organisations, including Gorey Youth Needs Group from my area. In resolving this issue, which we need to both tackle and get data on, it is critical to have the voices of young people. There are concerns for young people about transport costs and housing costs near employment. It is a challenge in rural areas. If the cost of going to a job is too significant, it may not make sense to take it up. There remains a concern about the number of hours given to some young people when it comes to employment. I am quite supportive of Mandate's campaign that everybody who is working should be guaranteed a reasonable number of hours in order to make that employment sustainable. There is the danger of young people being stigmatised if they have been unemployed for a period and we have to address that. We need to look at what measures we can put in place to be able to provide the supports. I look forward to hearing the Minister of State's analysis and also to offering some solutions."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment (Deputy Alan Dillon) I thank Deputy Byrne for raising this important issue. lreland\u2019s labour market continues to perform strongly, with record employment of over 2.8 million people last year. This reflects the resilience of a strong economy and the success of government policies in supporting job creation, fostering innovation and providing opportunities across sectors for young people to begin exciting careers. However, there has been a slowdown in momentum over the past year, consistent with an uncertain and volatile international macroeconomic environment, tighter monetary policy and a labour market that is close to capacity. It is often younger workers who feel the effects of economic uncertainty most acutely. The unemployment rate among those aged 15 to 24 has increased over the past year to approximately 12%, which is more than twice the economy-wide average. However, this increase remains modest and Ireland continues to perform well compared with our European peers. Having said that, it is really important we continue to focus on measures that help young people make the transition from education into sustainable employment. The Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment works closely with other Departments on this issue, in particular with the Department of Social Protection through the implementation of Pathways to Work, the Government's strategy for employment services and labour market activation. The Deputy referred to employment incentives. The Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment and its agencies will continue promoting employer awareness to encourage uptake of supports such as the work placement experience programme and the expanded JobsPlus subsidy scheme, whereby employers can receive financial support when recruiting eligible jobseekers, helping to reduce hiring costs while also creating opportunities for those with limited work experience. With respect to PRSI, budget 2027 included an increase in the employer PRSI threshold from \u20ac552 to \u20ac600 per week, helping employers manage labour costs and support recruitment, particularly in sectors that employ significant numbers of younger workers. The Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science leads on training and skills development which are equally important in addressing the challenges and through apprenticeships, Skillnet Ireland, SOLAS programmes, Springboard+ and Skills to Advance, the Government continues to invest in pathways that will continue to provide people with the skills required by a modern economy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Malcolm Byrne I welcome some of the moves on employers' PRSI. We should definitely give more incentives in that area to employers who decide to take on young people. Byrne's bookshops that operate in my home town and home county give good hours to young people but there is a huge cost on the PRSI side and we need to address it. We need to look more generally. I am conscious that the Minister of State talked about work placements. If we look at the lowest rates of youth unemployment across Europe, they are in Germany and Czechia, where they are about 6.5% to 7.5%. As he knows, there is a far greater emphasis there on academic and vocational tracks in education. Young people get the opportunity to work in a company. Businesses, along with the trade unions, are involved in designing the training that goes into some of these job placements. Particularly given the transformational nature of AI and other new technologies in what is happening, it is critical that we have a programme in place whereby young people can get the necessary experience because frequently when they apply for a job they fall into what is called the experience trap and they do not get the opportunities to be able to progress. We should look perhaps at summer programmes that will allow young people to be able to improve skills. We also need to look at further measures in SUSI, where young people are working. In fairness to the Minister, Deputy James Lawless, he has made a number of improvements there but it should not be a disincentive that if a young person wants to do additional work to gain money and experience that they should not be disadvantaged in terms of the SUSI grant. My overall point is that we should be concerned that we are starting to see the rate of youth unemployment creep up and I believe it should be a priority for the Minister of State\u2019s Department."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Dillon I again thank Deputy Byrne for raising this important matter. As Minister of State with responsibility for employment, I acknowledge the concerns he has raised here this afternoon. Ireland continues to have a strong labour market, record employment and significant opportunities for young people. Our focus now is very much to give every young person the skills, experience and also the opportunity to secure a good quality job, build a career and build for a future in Ireland. At the same, the Deputy mentioned AI. I do not think we can pretend that it is not changing the labour market; it is, but the challenge for the Government is not to resist the technological change but to ensure that young people are prepared and can benefit from it. That is why we are investing in skills, apprenticeships, lifelong learning and digital capability to ensure that young people are equipped to secure jobs into the future. When we talk to many young people, they do not want temporary schemes; they want real jobs and careers. Part of that is ensuring that we have the pathways from education into employment and ensuring that employers have the confidence to hire young people. That is why we are supporting both businesses and workers in that regard. The best guarantee that any Government can give is that the economy continues to be supported through real and proper policy but also that creates opportunities."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Youth Unemployment"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_8","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Public Transport","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Stanley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Canney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Stanley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Brian Stanley I am glad the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, is here for this discussion. The roads are congested. The N7 is bumper to bumper. Journey times have doubled from Portlaoise to Dublin. We are supposed to be reducing our carbon emissions but we need to give people options. At the moment the option is using trains or buses but the problem is that the trains are packed. Trains from Ballybrophy, Portlaoise and Portarlington going to Dublin are full. It is a success story in a way, in that there are crowds of people on the platforms in Portlaoise, Ballybrophy and Portarlington when there used to be half a dozen going back a few short years ago. The number of passengers has increased dramatically. However, the number of carriages has reduced. One train that used to have five carriages now has three carriages. We have fewer carriages. People are standing in corridors and sitting on the floor. That is okay for a short trip. I heard a Minister say recently that we can expect that across Europe. That is okay on commuter trains within a city or wherever for ten minutes or half an hour or on the London tube but when a passenger is there for hours like that, it is not good enough and it is unsafe. People with disabilities are struggling. For people who have a guide dog with them or for people in wheelchairs, it is really difficult. We need to be giving people a little bit of safety and comfort. I want the Minister of State to focus on this. I know he takes public transport seriously. I welcome that he has focused in on it since he has taken over as Minister for State but he needs to give this a razor-like sharpness. Is money approved for new carriages? How many new carriages will there be? When will see those new carriages on the tracks? The CEO of Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann, Mary Constine, said that everything the body has is rolling - everything that is fit to roll. Are there carriages that need to be reconditioned that can be used in the short term? What can be done? Do not tell me that it is an operational matter. Everything is an operational matter but the Government writes the cheque. The Government needs to ensure that all resources that we have are being utilised."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mark Wall I, too, am glad to see the Minister of State in front of us today. I have been raising this for the past number of months. I have engaged with the Minister of State previously on this. Over the past number of weeks, more and more commuters are coming to me daily. More and more commuters are experiencing hardship and overcrowding on our commuter lines. It is growing daily. Some of the stories that I have put on the record of this D\u00e1il are horrific. Today, I want to put more stories on the record of real life experiences. One commuter said: I am 20 weeks pregnant and struggling to get a seat, often left standing in the carriages. I have had two episodes now where I have had to get off the train because I felt dizzy and I felt faint due to the claustrophobic and warm nature of the trains. That is just one example. The next example stated: I travelled to Dublin Heuston five days a week. The majority of the time I stand on my way to and from where I begin in Newbridge. Yesterday, I did experience an episode where I felt like collapsing. I was absolutely drained before the working day even began. This is followed by the same experience on the train that I take home. This is happening on a daily basis on the lines that go through my county of Kildare. I have questions for the Minister of State. When will see proper health and safety introduced on these lines? As my colleague asked, when are going to see new carriages? From all the parliamentary questions that I put down, I am informed that a number of carriages will be freed up in the middle of next year. What we need to see are those carriages coming onto the Waterford line and the lines going through County Kildare because it is an issue with so many commuters at the moment. When can we see an early train on the Waterford line so that people can get into work on time? I put on the record here before, and I am going to do it again, that a doctor working in St. James's Hospital who gets the train from hometown from Athy each morning cannot get into work for 8 a.m. That is unacceptable in this day and age and needs to change."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Canney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister of State at the Department of Transport (Deputy Se\u00e1n Canney) I thank the Deputies for raising the issue of overcrowding on mainline rail, Luas and some bus services, in addition to the ongoing overcrowding on train lines serving Kildare South, including the Waterford, Limerick, Galway, Athlone, Portlaoise and Kilkenny lines. Deputy Stanley will not agree with my response. I have responsibility for transport but my officials are not involved in day-to-day operations. That does not mean that we are not taking responsibility. The statutory responsibility for securing public transport services rests with the National Transport Authority, NTA. It works with the public transport operators which deliver the services. That said, I want to reassure the Deputies that the Government is strongly committed to providing all citizens with reliable and realistic sustainable mobility options, and public transport plays a key role in the delivery of this goal. To support this objective, in budget 2026 the Department of Transport secured \u20ac940 million for public service obligation, PSO, and TFI Local Link services, an increase from \u20ac658 million in 2025. As announced in this year's budget, we are investing over \u20ac1 billion in public transport services that people rely on every day, with \u20ac1.042 billion allocated to PSO services across our bus, light rail and heavy rail networks. This represents an 11% increase in the PSO. The funding is about more than maintaining existing services and will also support the continued expansion and enhancement of our public transport network, with almost 140 new and enhanced services in the planning pipeline for 2027 across our flagship programmes such as Connecting Ireland, BusConnects and new town services. Separately, this investment includes almost \u20ac60 million in capital funding to maintain and renew our rail assets, including essential rolling stock and equipment to keep our rail network safe, reliable and fit for the future. I understand the Deputies want to discuss overcrowding on public transport services. I would like to inform the Deputies that the NTA and Irish Rail have established a working group to jointly plan and implement changes and enhancements to the rail timetable. As part of the planning process, the NTA has also run public consultations to gauge the public response to changes to services and inform the demand for, and priority of, future potential enhancements. Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann saw record passenger numbers in 2025 of over 55 million passenger journeys, a figure that is growing further in 2026. To address this, it has confirmed to the Department it currently operates all available trains on a daily basis, outside of the required maintenance cycles to ensure reliability and to deal with any repairs which may be taking place. It is maximising use of their rolling stock to meet demand and will continue to monitor passenger loadings. Irish Rail confirmed it recognises that this is creating pressure on capacity on some services at the busiest times at present. While its trains are busy, they are designed to safely accommodate full loading at our busiest times, although it appreciates this can be uncomfortable. In addition, it is pleased to advise that new trains will begin entering the system in 2027, which will provide extra capacity on the network. To date, 285 new DART carriages have been ordered and Irish Rail has confirmed that the first order of 95 carriages will directly benefit the Drogheda line, with 65 battery electric carriages and the existing DART+ line. However, this will also allow Intercity and commuter trains currently operating on the Drogheda line to be used on other routes around the network, including commuter routes. Their deployment will be subject to review with, and the approval of, the NTA, subject to demand and infrastructure capacity at the time. This process will be repeated with the introduction of a further 90 battery electric carriages, freeing up existing trains, while the remaining 100 electric carriages will ultimately replace the original DART fleet, which has been in operation since 1984."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Stanley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Brian Stanley It is welcome that new carriages have been ordered but it is just one statistic from working groups in Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann and the NTA. Ultimately, the Minister writes the cheque and the more convoluted the process is the further it gets away from everybody, including those of us in here. The Minister of State needs to ensure that there has been delivery on the money that has been provided. I welcome that there is extra funding but we are trying to get people off the roads and onto rail, and make it easier for them to do so. The Minister of State has to make sure this happens and the process is followed through on. Sometimes the doors of the Luas trams will not close because so many people are trying to squeeze onto them. It is not a safe situation. I ask the Minister of State again to look at the situation with higher fares. He may say that fares have to be increased, but 15% in the month of January when the bills start coming in on top of everything else is excessive. I ask for the Minister of State's Department to go back and look at that again."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mark Wall I thank the Minister of State for his reply. I want to draw his attention to what he said to us. He said that the trains were designed to safely accommodate full loading at the busiest times. I have given the Minister of State examples of people standing on top of one another. If one of those trains stops urgently, what is going to happen to those people? These are the questions I am being asked. That is why I am asking the Minister of State to address the health and safety issues that are on these trains, which are so overcrowded. Labour has introduced a Bill on remote working to try to allow more people to work remotely. That is a solution that the Government needs to look at. I will repeat that we need to see extra carriages being put onto those trains on the Waterford line to allow early trains and to remove the burden on the current number of carriages. There are plenty of houses being built in south Kildare, but we do not have the facilities for them. We need to see those carriages installed as quickly as possible. I appeal to the Minister of State to look at the health and safety issues. I appeal to him to try to get those carriages on that line from Waterford, Carlow and Athy to Dublin as quickly as possible."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Canney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Se\u00e1n Canney What we are talking about here is pressure on our rail lines. It just shows how important the rail network is and how it has been growing over the years. Twenty years ago, we were closing rail lines. Now, we are opening them up. We need to invest in the carriages to make sure that people have a good experience and continue using public transport. That is what we are doing. From next year, we will have additional carriages coming on stream. Additional carriages will be going onto the commuter lines and the intercity lines because we are bringing in more new carriages. This is a good news story. I say to people that I understand the pressure they are under when they are in these carriages, which are packed. I see more students using the rail network, which is why there are peak times for them as well. If we get students using rail and they get used to it and have a good experience, they will probably never have to buy a car. That is the end goal. We have to keep working at it. I thank the Deputies for their contributions today and for their support in making sure Irish Rail continues to do its work safely."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Public Transport"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_9","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna \u00f3 Cheannair\u00ed - Leaders' Questions","counts":{"speechCount":117,"speakerCount":15},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_9","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Deputies","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"M\u00e1ire Devine","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/M\u00e1ire-Devine.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"M\u00e1ire-Devine.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor D. McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Liam Quaide","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle We will now move to Leaders' Questions under Standing Order 38. I call Deputy Mary Lou McDonald."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Lou McDonald On Thursday, the French President, the German Chancellor and the leaders of other EU states that are also members of NATO are coming to Dublin. Europe's direction of travel is clear: greater militarisation, deeper defence integration and even closer alignment with NATO. It is little wonder, therefore, that leaders and the Minister's Government will be joined by the secretary general of NATO. His presence further underlines the increasingly militarised political environment taking shape across Europe. The European Commission has made that direction very explicit in its rearming Europe plan, which aims to mobilise up to \u20ac800 billion for defence investment, including \u20ac150 billion in EU-backed loans. These are vast sums being directed towards building up Europe's military capacity and, of course, the arms industry. That is the context in which this Government is seeking to ditch the triple lock, rush legislation through the D\u00e1il and undermine Irish neutrality with absolutely no reference to the people. The Government's position flies in the face of commitments made to the Irish people during the Nice and Lisbon referendum campaigns. Explicit guarantees had to be secured that EU defence co-operation would not compromise Ireland's military neutrality. The triple lock is at the very heart of that guarantee, so the Government cannot now dismiss it as a technicality. It is, in fact, the mechanism designed to protect our neutrality or, as Miche\u00e1l Martin said in this House in 2013, it is at the core of our neutrality. Let us be clear: the triple lock does not prevent Irish peacekeeping. What it does is anchor Irish overseas deployments in international legitimacy and democratic scrutiny. Under it, our soldiers, their families and the Irish people know that they are acting in accordance with international law, under a UN mandate, and honourably fulfilling their duties as soldiers of an independent Irish State. T\u00e1 muintir na h\u00c9ireann br\u00f3d\u00fail as \u00e1r neodrachas. Tuigeann siad an t\u00e1bhacht agus luach a bhaineann leis. P\u00e9 rud a cheapann an Rialtas, ba ch\u00f3ir go mbeadh an seans ag na daoine a gcuid tuairim\u00ed a chur in i\u00fal. Mar sin de, n\u00ed m\u00f3r reifreann a re\u00e1cht\u00e1il ar an neodracht. Whatever the Government may think, Irish people want Ireland to remain neutral. They understand the value of that policy even if the Government does not. Neutrality has allowed us to make an independent contribution to peace and to speak with our own voice rather than following the military priorities of others. The Government now wants to force the D\u00e1il to ditch this key safeguard. It is doing so with its eyes wide open to Europe's direction of travel, with increased militarisation, closer alignment to NATO, hundreds of billions of euro being committed to arms and a clear disregard for the views and wishes of the Irish people. I believe this to be a profound betrayal of commitments made to the Irish people and a direct assault on Ireland's neutrality. The Government has no mandate and no right to abandon Irish neutrality or to ditch the triple lock without explicit reference to the people. What is it afraid of? It should put the question to the people and make its case. Bring the issue to a referendum."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Deputies","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputies Hear, hear."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister for Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation (Deputy Jack Chambers) This is more misleading nonsense from Sinn F\u00e9in with a flavour of Euroscepticism, which is what we have heard from the party for many years. The Deputy's presentation is completely disingenuous. This legislative change is all about reform and keeping alive the Irish tradition of peacekeeping. The Deputy is willing to abandon that proud tradition of peacekeeping. As a Government, we are not. That is the fundamental difference between us. Without the reform we are proposing, Ireland will no longer have the capacity in many instances to participate in peacekeeping around the world. Without the reform we are proposing, our military will no longer have any meaningful international role. Does the Deputy understand that? Does she have any heed of or care for what that would do to recruitment and retention in the military? She needs to be honest with military personnel and their families at this point. With the illegal and immoral invasion of Ukraine, the element of the triple lock that requires Russian approval for the deployment of Irish peacekeepers became unfit for purpose. The Government will not allow Russia, China, Britain, the US or anyone else to have a veto over our independent foreign and security policy. To whom does Sinn F\u00e9in want to give that veto?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Deputies","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputies The Irish people."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers Deputy McDonald is casually throwing around accusations about Ireland's neutrality. Of course, she has form in that regard. For years, she has been making the claim that our neutrality is being attacked. In fact, Sinn F\u00e9in declared it dead in 1972, 2003, 2008 and on many other occasions. Neutrality is about Ireland's ability to act independently and not to have legal obligations to participate in any conflict. That will not change. If we really value our independence when it comes to foreign policy and defence, our decisions on whether to participate in peacekeeping initiatives should not be subject to the veto of any other country. My party was clear in our manifesto before the last general election on the need for reform in this area, and that is reflected in the programme for Government. The Defence (Amendment) Bill will provide for the removal of any foreign veto in relation to the dispatch of Defence Forces members for service outside the State as part of an international peacekeeping force. Any modification to the triple lock continues to require the Government of the day and a majority in this House to approve the dispatch of Defence Forces personnel to take part in peacekeeping and any similar missions. The proposed changes are a reassertion of our neutrality and of our right to make our own independent decisions and to act as an independent country. This reinforces Ireland's ability to pursue an independent foreign policy by removing the power of the UN Security Council's permanent members to veto our national sovereign decisions and will allow the Defence Forces to respond to crisis situations affecting our citizens with more agility and effectiveness. Stop being disingenuous. The Deputy's mask has slipped again in trying to attack the European political community meeting. What is it that Sinn F\u00e9in has against the European Union? It is a union that has shown incredible solidarity against the illegal invasion of Ukraine and in many other areas of policy that matter to people across this country."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"M\u00e1ire Devine","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/M\u00e1ire-Devine.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"M\u00e1ire-Devine.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy M\u00e1ire Devine Focus on the question."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers The reform being made here is simply to reinforce the sovereign decisions of the D\u00e1il and also of the decisions of the Government in the context of the veto within the UN Security Council, which is a change that does have a mandate, was reflected in the general election, and is something that the Government wants to progress."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Lou McDonald Let me be explicit for the Minister. We will challenge the \u20ac800 billion of proposed spending in defence, armaments and warfare. Every day of the week we will challenge the European Union and the Government on that. This is the only honourable thing to do. The Government chooses a different course but does not even have the integrity to be honest about what it is at. Just so the Minister knows, peacekeeping missions by definition require a UN mandate. In the absence of a UN mandate, it is no longer a peacekeeping mission. It is actually as simple as that. The Minister knows well the direction of travel of the European Union towards NATO, towards armaments and towards warfare. We wish to keep Ireland out of that. We wish to retain our noble tradition of neutrality, the very thing that has allowed us to make our contributions to the world."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle The Minister, Deputy Chambers, to respond."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Lou McDonald The Minister asks about the veto. The Irish people have the veto on this and the Minister has no right to ditch our neutrality-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul McAuliffe Sinn F\u00e9in Members are the only ones-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Deputy McDonald's time is up."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Lou McDonald -----without going and asking for the democratic permission of the Irish people to do so."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Deputies","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputies Hear, hear."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Deputy McDonald's time is up. I call the Minister."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers We are not proposing any sort of military alliance. The Deputy is completely misleading the D\u00e1il in what she is suggesting. We have no intention of joining NATO. There is no plan to join NATO and there is no mandate to join NATO. That is not what we are doing."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor D. McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Conor D. McGuinness There is no mandate to get rid of the triple lock."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers Deputy McDonald is completely misrepresenting the position of the Irish Government, day in and day out."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Lou McDonald No, I am not."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers This is a reform to remove the veto of Sinn F\u00e9in's friends in Russia and others. What does it have against that? Why does it want to acquiesce to major powers and give them the right to decide or veto where we deploy our troops?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Lou McDonald Is the Minister actually that ignorant or naive?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers This is a reinforcement of the democratic position of this Parliament, it reinforces the democratic position of the Irish Government, and we have no plan to join any military alliance. We co-operate with other EU member states, primarily in the interests of peacekeeping-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Lou McDonald Then put the case to the people."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers That is our central focus. That is where we have a strong record and we want to continue that record for the years to come. The Deputy should speak to military families. Speak to them when-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Lou McDonald They live in my constituency."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers Are you telling them that they will be deployed nowhere into the future because of your policy on this position?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor D. McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Conor D. McGuinness They want fair pay."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Lou McDonald People are not joining because you are not paying them properly."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle I remind Members to speak through the Chair and allow all contributions without interruption. Deputy O'Callaghan, please."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cian O'Callaghan There were almost 70 patients on trolleys and in chairs at Cork University Hospital, CUH, yesterday morning, most of them elderly. Trolley to trolley, they were backed up against one another in bright noisy corridors, some of them beside drafty windows, making rest and recovery impossible. On the \"Today with David McCullagh\" show this morning, the professor of emergency medicine, Conor Deasy, described conditions as tantamount to torture. The staff in CUH are under immense pressure. They are trying their very best to treat their patients in overcrowded and unsafe conditions. None of this should come as surprise to the Government because it has been on notice of a developing crisis in CUH all year. Staffing shortages were first raised by the hospital back in April. In August, in desperation, the CEO of the hospital Jennifer Kearney wrote to HSE in very stark terms. She said that conditions at the hospital were unsustainable and it was not safe to enter the winter period with the current level of staffing shortages. Instead of being listened to, her concerns were dismissed and at a meeting with HSE officials she was threatened with performance management. Jennifer Kearney did her best to warn the Government of what was coming but instead of listening to her, the Minister for Health went on the attack. She lambasted CUH and said appeals for additional staff were unrealistic. Now look where we are. Surgeries for cancer patients have been cancelled at short notice. Women admitted for breast cancer surgery, some already in hospital gowns, were sent home. Imagine enduring the anxiety, fear and emotional strain that comes before a major surgery, only to be told at the last minute that it would not go ahead. No patient should ever be put through this type of ordeal. Nine clinical directors at the hospital have written to the Taoiseach to outline their serious concerns. They said that of the 172 priority posts that are urgently required, just seven have been approved. The winter is just beginning and the pressure on the hospital is going to increase. What will it take before the Government acts and will the Minister agree to an independent assessment of staffing needs at CUH as a matter of urgency?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers I acknowledge the tremendous work being done across our health system by staff in all of our acute hospitals, particularly as we get into the winter period, which brings additional challenges and demand. Since 2020, there has been a record level of investment and staffing increases right across the system - more staff, more beds and more services available universally. We have embedded reforms with the public-only consultant contract and many other benefits are being brought to patients and staff, with a focus on community healthcare in particular. The Minister for Health has led in driving reform, with requests coming in for additional spending. The pressures facing CUH are facing all hospitals across the HSE as we head into the winter period. This pressure arises from increased demand. Between 2019 and 2025, emergency department attendance has increased by 28% while inpatient day case and outpatient activity has also increased. Emergency department attendances in CUH increased by 11% from September last year to September of this year. Successive Governments in recent years have supported CUH. Look at the staff increases and the low overall level of investment. Between 2019 and 2025, funding increased by 98% from \u20ac303 million to \u20ac600 million. This has driven notable growth in staffing levels. Some 107 additional beds have been added since 2020, an increase of 19%. Staffing increased by 41% from 3,500 to over 4,870. In this year alone, CUH has recruited and grown its staff complement by 324 from 4,870 to 5,194, which is an increase of over 6% compared to a 3% growth more generally across Department of Health-funded HSE services. The Government's investment in CUH is clear, but there has to be evaluation of where the staffing decisions were made within management in terms of where they were prioritised and allocated and what those allocations have achieved in the context of significant increases in expenditure and-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Liam Quaide","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Liam Quaide It is 1,000 staff short."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers -----significant increases in investment in recent years. The context here cannot just be about more spending, more staffing and additionality everywhere."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Liam Quaide","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Liam Quaide It is 1,000 staff short."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Deputy Quaide did not ask the question."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers We need to balance that genuine request that comes, at times, from management with a focus on reform and the need to strategically deploy staffing in the best way, as the Minister for Health has reflected in recent years. In terms of the Deputy's wider question, based on an assessment received from the HSE on quality and patient safety, the overall position regarding patient safety in CUH is reassuring, notwithstanding pressures associated with increased demand. The Minister for Health is continuously monitoring this issue. It is reflected in the broader staff increases we have made in recent years and the huge investment in CUH as a critical hospital in the southern region."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cian O'Callaghan Has the Minister nothing to say to the almost 70 people who were on trolleys and chairs yesterday, most of them elderly? He did not even acknowledge them in his response, or what they were going through. Has he nothing to say to the patients with cancer, some of whom were in their gowns ready for surgery and who had to be sent home? He did not even acknowledge them in his answer. Has he nothing to say to them? All he can do is come in here and blame the hospital management, the very management that has been crying out for help to deal with the staffing shortage. The request is for an independent assessment of staffing need. What has the Government got against such an independent assessment? Why will it not support that? Why will it not action that? An independent assessment is a very reasonable request. There are 1,000 vacant posts in the hospital. There are 172 urgently required to be filled and all the Government is allowing are seven of those to be filled."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers I absolutely acknowledge the specific circumstances of patients. There is a responsibility in the hospital and in the HSE region to meet the respective demands with the staffing increases that we have funded and budgeted for in recent years. On the Deputy's question about HIQA conducting an announced inspection in CUH to monitor against the national standards for safer and better healthcare on 5 and 6 November, of course there has to be evaluation of patient safety in all hospitals and funded healthcare regions. That is a standard that absolutely must be met. There is also the need within the HSE regions to prioritise posts within their budgets."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(Interruptions)."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers We obviously have a new control environment in the Department of Health-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Liam Quaide","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Liam Quaide Where should the money go?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Deputies, please."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers -----and the Minister for Health is authorising specific posts where they are strategically placed in the context of the region. The facts are clear, however. Funding is up in CUH. In addition to many other hospitals,-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cian O'Callaghan The Minister should answer the question."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle I thank the Minister. Time is up."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers -----it is up relevant to the investment in recent years, and that will continue to be the case in the next few years."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle I call Deputy Bacik."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ivana Bacik We are at the eleventh hour again as Government and union representatives return to the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC. I want to express my solidarity with public sector workers facing the prospect of another strike on Thursday, potentially. All they want is fair pay and respect. We all know that the talks are ongoing. We hope for a speedy resolution. I will say this, however. It was not respectful for the Government to wait so long to engage meaningfully with unions when the last pay deal ran out months ago. This morning, we heard stories from one group of public sector workers on the front line, with a shocking report from Cork University Hospital on David McCullagh's radio show. We heard a harrowing account of conditions at CUH for healthcare workers and patients alike, with 70 patients on trolleys in corridors and waiting areas in emergency departments. One woman described her elderly mother asking for help to go to the bathroom for two hours. All resuscitation beds are full and there is no capacity for fresh admissions. One medic said patients were experiencing a form of torture, while staff are working in intolerable conditions compounded by a severe staffing crisis. As we know, the hospital CEO, Jennifer Kearney, said the hospital was short more than 1,000 staff coming into the winter period. That is a shocking figure. Doctors are now warning that people will die because the hospital cannot deliver timely, quality care due to the Government's recruitment freeze. Indeed, we learned that CUH may now face quarterly fines of \u20ac300,000 for non-compliance with labour laws on breaks and hours. Yet, the Minister for Health has the temerity to insist that CUH is operating on par with other hospitals. In today's The Irish Times , Beaumont emergency consultant Dr. Peadar Gilligan points out that the ordinary state of affairs in Irish hospitals is unsafe. Unsafe conditions have become the norm, so CUH being on par with other hospitals is of no reassurance, not to nurses preparing to strike again when they know their best efforts are no guarantee of safe care. It is not reassuring for patients either now being told they may not receive treatment until the new year. It is not reassuring for sick people in chairs in emergency departments, deteriorating while they wait to be seen. This is not just the case for patients and staff in Cork. Trolley numbers across the country are up 12% on last year. This September was the worst on record for overcrowding nationally, with more than 12,000 patients treated in inappropriate locations. The Minister boasted earlier about levels of investment in Cork and in the national health service but as Deputy Sherlock, Labour's health spokesperson, said, there is a huge gap here between the reality of healthcare budgets and the sort of wishful thinking in which the Government is engaging. She points out the gap between funding allocation for health services and the budget. She points out that the HSE is on course to record the second largest health deficit ever of over \u20ac1 billion. The Minister is telling us the HSE broke even last year when it actually recorded a deficit of close to \u20ac250 million."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle I thank the Deputy. The Minister to respond."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ivana Bacik People are asking where the reality is. Will the Minister admit that the Government underfunded the health service this year? Will the Government lift what is a recruitment freeze in all but name to guarantee patient safety?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle The Minister to respond, please."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers It really is just such a lazy narrative from the Deputy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ivana Bacik It is really not."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers More spending; that is Labour. It just wants more spending."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Liam Quaide","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Liam Quaide Spend the money; it is understaffed."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ivana Bacik It is understaffed."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle I am sorry; through the Chair and without interruption."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ged Nash The Government is lowballing here."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(Interruptions)."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers By any metric, the Irish health system is well funded compared internationally. We have a \u20ac27.4 billion budget in 2026. It has increased in the last few years by \u20ac10 billion. That is underpinned by workforce growth in terms of the number of whole-time equivalents by over 30,000. The workforce was at 133,000 as of September 2026, a 30% increase since 2019. The health system has been a central priority for this Government in terms of public investment and the expansion of public services and that has been reflected over the last series of budgets. However, it is important that we balance the big increase and expansion in the service with the need for a control environment that is sustainable. That is what the Minister for Health is doing with the Department of Health in respect of the different regions. If we look at the facts around CUH, we see that funding has grown from \u20ac303 million in 2019 to \u20ac600 million, with a notable increase in staffing levels and 107 additional beds."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Liam Quaide","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Liam Quaide It is 341 beds short."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers Of course, there are going to be requests. In debates around health spending, the Opposition always looks for more. Ultimately, it comes down to the wider investment, what way it is organised and how it is delivering across our system. What is the balance between investment in acute care and investment in community healthcare when there is always demand within our hospital system? That underpins the wider policy when it comes to Sl\u00e1intecare. The same is true of the budget in 2027, where we have continued to prioritise investment in our health system. Just saying that it is not enough is not a policy position in itself, which is what we hear repeatedly from Deputy Bacik. The facts speak for themselves around investment and staff expansion and that will continue, particularly as we have seen increased demographic demand in recent years. I will speak briefly to the Deputy's question and point around the public service pay talks. I am not going to comment any further except to say that negotiations are confidential. It was positive to see a conclusion and resolution at the independent group, chaired by Kevin Foley. We want to see intensive engagement continue through the day so that we have a successful outcome for all parties. That underpins a Government that wants to prioritise public service expansion, support workers on the front line and ensure that the health system continues to be well funded in the years to come, but it is about how we organise that in the context of the budgetary growth in recent years."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ivana Bacik With respect, the response there was laughable. The figures speak for themselves. The health service is in deficit, the HSE is in deficit and the Supplementary Estimates give lie to the figures the Minister has quoted. We know that the health budget is not a reality. It is a work of fiction. Patients and healthcare workers deserve a budget based on reality and on an acknowledgement that there is chronic short-staffing across the system. Quite apart from the psychodrama that we are seeing playing out between the Taoiseach, the Minister and hospital management, the most disturbing feature of the CUH controversy is the patient safety issue. That is the real core of this. The warning bells have been ringing loudly for some time now, yet the Government's response has been to focus on how concerns were communicated instead of looking at how to fix the problem by addressing the chronic shortfall in staffing. We have seen a bombastic, arrogant reaction, just as we saw from the Minister for justice, Deputy O'Callaghan, in his response to concerns about the legal aid scheme and in the Government's response when the public sector unions signalled how badly the cost of living was hitting their members."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Thank you, Deputy. I call the Minister."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ivana Bacik What we need is a budget for the health service that is rooted in reality-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Your time is up, Deputy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ivana Bacik -----and enables hospitals to recruit enough staff to treat patients and ensure patient safety."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle The Minister to respond."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers The reality of the health budget is that it has increased by over \u20ac10 billion in a short number of years. That is an exponential increase. The reality of the health budget is that we have nearly 30,000 more staff working in the health system in the last number of years. We have to ensure that the health budget is sustainable and affordable into the long term. What is the Deputy suggesting? Is it just endless exponential increases that ultimately are not sustainable?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ivana Bacik Look at the actual need honestly."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers We have prioritised funding our health system and by any metric, the expansion has been unprecedented in the last five to six years, particularly coming out of Covid when we had to increase capacity in our acute hospitals. That has happened with the significant staff increases universally. The Government takes patient safety very seriously. That is why the HSE's quality and patient safety team carried out an assessment at CUH, and there is obviously work being done by HIQA to ensure that safety standards are upheld. We need to ensure as well that the overall funding envelope in health has a control environment that works and is sustainable, and prioritises community healthcare in the context of Sl\u00e1intecare."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett The gathering of European leaders and, significantly, the head of NATO in Dublin this weekend highlights the misguided priorities of this Government and European leaders. It seems that European leaders and this Government think there are endless billions for weapons, militarism and war. However, the treatment of working people looking for a pay increase that matches inflation is much less of a priority. The same can be said of the patients in CUH whom a consultant has described as being tortured in that hospital because of the lack of staff and resources. Is it not a stark contrast? I do not know how much money is being spent but the Minister might tell us. I would say millions are being spent to roll out the red carpet for all of these EU leaders and the head of NATO, and to wine and dine them in the National Gallery. Regardless of what happens with the pay increases, workers have had to go out on strike to get a pay increase from a Government that is trying hold back on them. It refuses to give them a pay increase that will keep pace with inflation unless they go out on strike and threaten another strike. That is really my question to the Minister. How come there are endless billions for weapons of war, but we get contemptuous treatment of working people who are just fighting for a decent pay increase, or indeed of people looking for our hospitals to be properly staffed and resourced? This Government signed up to these priorities of rearming Europe. Let us remember that the European Union is the biggest trading partner of the Israeli regime, which is committing genocide against the Palestinian people. It is arming that regime to the teeth, but this Government wants to involve us in the plans for more militarisation. Many of those countries are selling weapons to Israel to massacre Palestinians. There is even dual-use technology going from this country to the Israeli military while it is committing genocide. This Government wants to do more of that, but it is holding out on ordinary working people who are just looking for a pay increase that will ensure they are not losing income and working for less because of the cost-of-living crisis caused by the warmongering of the United States, Israel and many of the powers that want more money spent on weapons. The Government is going to do away with the triple lock and deal another blow to our neutrality in order to serve that agenda. Do its priorities not need to be re-evaluated?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Thank you, Deputy. The Minister to respond."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers The Deputy raised a number of points. As I have said, I want to respect the confidentiality of the process under way at the Workplace Relations Commission. We want to have a credible and fair deal for workers, particularly prioritising the low paid. I am limited in what I can say, except to say that negotiations are ongoing. We had positive engagement yesterday through Kevin Foley, who chaired that process. We want to see a pay deal for workers. A lot of what the Deputy has said is a complete misrepresentation of the position. He knows clearly that we are absolutely independent in our foreign policy and our reforms of the triple lock. Like Deputy McDonald, Deputy Boyd Barrett wants to continue to hand a veto to Russia-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Lou McDonald No, he does not."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers -----China, Britain, the US and many others. Why he would not support a reform that involves this House deciding on the independent deployment-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor D. McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Conor D. McGuinness Because the Government cannot be trusted."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers -----of troops to continue and sustain our proud record of peacekeeping is extraordinary."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul McAuliffe They do not trust themselves."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers It is extraordinary."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul Murphy It is not peacekeeping if it is not in the UN, is it?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Deputy Murphy, please."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers He throws about the issue of NATO here and there."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul Murphy He can call it peacekeeping, but it does not make it peacekeeping."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Members, please."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers We have no intention of joining NATO. We have no intention of joining any military alliance. The Deputy knows as well as I do that the Constitution prohibits such an act. European Political Community meetings are important in the context of Ireland's role within the European Union. I know that like Sinn F\u00e9in, Deputy Boyd Barrett is Eurosceptic and would take a much different approach to Ireland's role in the European Union. That is not something the broader Irish public would support either-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Lou McDonald Go and check with the people in a referendum."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers -----in terms of the Deputy's position with the European Union. Ireland's defence spending is set out. We have moderately increased our defence spending in recent years, again supported by the work of the Commission on the Defence Forces in supporting expansion of equipment and a lot of respective improvement to pay and conditions for people who work across the Defence Forces. A lot of what the Deputy has said is just rhetoric and a complete misrepresentation of the Irish Government, which is well respected, by the way, in the European Union, led by the Minister, Deputy McEntee, the Taoiseach and others, in terms of what we have said about Gaza-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ruth Coppinger That is not complimentary."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers -----and the shocking atrocities there and elsewhere. We have been consistent. We have been recognised in the European Union and the UN for how we have spoken up on behalf of the people of Gaza and elsewhere. That will continue within the European Political Community and all other European Union engagements."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett Anybody who cares about our neutrality, opposes war and militarisation, and is concerned about the ongoing complicity of the European Union with the genocide being perpetrated by Israel against the Palestinians should be on the streets at 5 o'clock at The Spire, where we will be marching to the National Gallery, where, among others, the head of NATO will be. Which bit of what I have said is not true? Is it not true that the head of NATO is going to be there? It is not true that the European Union is the biggest trading partner of Israel that is committing a genocide? Is it not true that the policy of ReArm Europe is to double arms expenditure in Europe from \u20ac400 billion, which has already increased by multiples over recent years, up to \u20ac800 billion? That is not true, apparently, is it not?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Byrne That is NATO. It is not the EU."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett Is it not an attack on neutrality that we will be sent on military missions - our sons and daughters, potentially - which are not authorised by the United Nations?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Thank you, Deputy. You time is up. The Minister will respond."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett By whom are they authorised - NATO or the European Union?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers It is complete and utter nonsense-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Lou McDonald It is all true."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers -----to talk about sending our sons and daughters away because of some decision by some other military alliance. It is a complete mistruth."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett Read the legislation."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers It is a complete and utter mistruth. Stop scaremongering."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul Murphy Why are you scrapping the guardrails then?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers You can continue to engage in your street politics and your division, but you know it is not true. You know there is no mandate for it. You know there is no intention to do it. Stop misrepresenting the actual position of the Government to the people of Ireland."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Lou McDonald Then take your case to the people."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett What is the Minister talking to Mark Rutte about?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers There is a growing budget for defence spending by many European member states. Does the Deputy know why? It is because of Russia and because of the risk of what Russia is doing in Ukraine and the risk across the eastern area. Deputy Boyd Barrett did not mention Russia. He rarely mentions Russia in all his contributions."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett I do."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers The Deputy rarely mentions Russia, except he is willing to keep Russia's veto-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett Nobody is proposing an alliance with Russia. The Minister is proposing an alliance with NATO."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers -----when it comes Ireland's foreign policy and Ireland's position in the context of deciding our own affairs."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Lou McDonald If you are that sure, bring the case to the Irish people in a referendum."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers It is complete inconsistency and hypocrisy and a complete misrepresentation of the truth. Deputy Boyd Barrett knows our consistent position in all international affairs."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul Murphy Put it to the people."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers The focus of our reform is on upholding our strong role in peacekeeping."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Lou McDonald Put the question to the people."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor D. McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Conor D. McGuinness Why are you scared of democracy?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Byrne Even Sinn F\u00e9in met NATO when they went to Kosovo."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Lou McDonald Bring your case to the people."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Byrne Your Sinn F\u00e9in colleagues met NATO in Kosovo."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna \u00f3 Cheannair\u00ed - Leaders' Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_10","debateType":"orderofBusiness","bill":null,"showAs":"An tOrd Gn\u00f3 - Order of Business","counts":{"speechCount":66,"speakerCount":24},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_10","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mattie McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor D. McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Brennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Brian-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Willie O'Dea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Willie-O'Dea.D.1982-03-09","memberCode":"Willie-O'Dea.D.1982-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle In accordance with Standing Order 35, I call on the Chief Whip, Deputy Mary Butler, to move the arrangements for this week's business."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Deputy Mary Butler) I move: Tuesday's business shall be: - Motion re Sixteenth Report of the Standing Committee of Selection (without debate and any division claimed to be taken immediately) - Social Welfare Bill 2026 (Second Stage) (to adjourn at the end of the first speaking round; not to exceed 3 hours and 24 minutes) Tuesday's private members' business shall be the Motion re Toll Charges and the Cost of Living, selected by Sinn F\u00e9in. Wednesday's business shall be: - Social Welfare Bill 2026 (Second Stage, resumed) (to conclude at the end of the second speaking round, not to exceed 1 hour and 52 minutes; any division claimed shall be taken immediately) - Short-Term Letting and Tourism Bill 2026 (Committee and remaining Stages) (to conclude within 4 hours) - Motion re Proposed approval by D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann of the Protection of Young Persons (Employment in Food and Beverage Services Sector) Regulations 2026 (back from Committee) (any division claimed to be taken immediately) Wednesday's private members' business shall be the Motion re Reversing Planned Increases to Public Transport Fares, selected by Social Democrats. Thursday's business shall be: - Statements on Drug-Related Intimidation (not to exceed 2 hours and 25 minutes) Thursday evening business shall be the Second Stage of the Non-Fatal Offences against the Person (Amendment) (Spiking) Bill 2023 [Seanad], sponsored by Deputy Barry Ward. Proposed Arrangements for this week\u2019s business: In relation to Tuesday\u2019s business, it is proposed that: 1. notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders: (a) the time allocated to Government business shall be extended in accordance with the arrangements for that business and the D\u00e1il may sit later than 10.48 p.m.; and (b) private members\u2019 business shall be taken following Government Business with consequential effect on the commencement times for the items following in the ordinary routine of business; 2. the proceedings on the Motion re Sixteenth Report of the Standing Committee of Selection shall be taken without debate and any division claimed thereon shall be taken immediately; and 3. the proceedings on the Second Stage of the Social Welfare Bill 2026 shall be interrupted and stand adjourned at the end of the first speaking round, which shall not exceed 3 hours and 24 minutes, and the following arrangements shall apply: (a) the first-round speeches shall be in accordance with the table below (to be read across); (b) where first-round speeches conclude before the 3 hours and 24 minutes have elapsed and no other member is offering, the debate shall stand adjourned; and (c) members may share time. Gov SF SD Gov SF Mins 20 20 20 12 4 Lab Gov SF IPTG Gov Mins 20 12 4 20 12 SF ITG Gov SF OM Mins 4 20 12 4 20 Total: 3 hours 24 mins In relation to Wednesday's business, it is proposed that: 1. notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders: (a) any motions to be taken without debate shall be taken on the conclusion of the Short-Term Letting and Tourism Letting Bill 2026; and (b) the weekly division time shall be taken on the conclusion of proceedings on any motions without debate; 2. the resumed proceedings on the Second Stage of the Social Welfare Bill 2026 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at the end of the second speaking round, which shall not exceed 1 hour and 42 minutes, and the following arrangements shall apply: (a) the second-round speeches shall be in accordance with the table below (to be read across); (b) on the conclusion of the second speaking round, or where speeches conclude before the 1 hour and 42 minutes have elapsed and no other member is offering, a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a speech in reply which shall not exceed 10 minutes, whereupon proceedings shall be brought to a conclusion; (c) members may share time; and (d) any division claimed thereon shall be taken immediately; Gov SF SD Gov SF Mins 10 10 10 6 2 Lab Gov SF IPTG Gov Mins 10 6 2 10 6 SF ITG Gov SF OM Mins 2 10 6 2 10 Total: 1 hour 42 mins 3. the proceedings on Committee and Remaining Stages of the Short-Term Letting and Tourism Bill 2026 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 4 hours by one question, which shall be put from the Chair, and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Enterprise, Tourism and Employment; and 4. the proceedings on the Motion re Proposed approval by D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann of the Protection of Young Persons (Employment in Food and Beverage Services Sector) Regulations 2026 shall be taken without debate and any division claimed thereon shall be taken immediately. In relation to Thursday's business, it is proposed that: 1. notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, Thursday evening business pursuant to Standing Order 169 may be taken earlier than 8.24 p.m. with consequential effect on the time for the adjournment of the D\u00e1il; and 2. the Statements on Drug-Related Intimidation shall not exceed 2 hours and 25 minutes and the following arrangements shall apply: (a) the statements, not including the Ministerial response, shall be in accordance with the sequence contained in the table immediately below (to be read across); (b) following the statements, a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement in reply which shall not exceed 10 minutes; and (c) members may share time. Gov SF SD Gov SF Mins 25 15 10 10 3 Lab Gov SF IPTG Gov Mins 10 10 3 9 10 SF ITG Gov SF OM Mins 3 9 10 3 5 Total: 2 hours 15 mins"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Are the arrangements agreed to?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Lou McDonald Not agreed. The Government is on notice of a proposed strike action by public servants on Thursday. That is not reflected in the D\u00e1il schedule. Of course, public sector workers might be forced for the second time onto the picket lines because of the Minister's dithering, delaying and failure to deliver a fair pay settlement thus far. To be clear, and to put the Government on notice, if there are picket lines and if public servants are on strike, we will not be crossing those picket lines and there will not, in fact, be any D\u00e1il business done."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Whitmore All across the world, communities are pushing back against power-hungry data centres. It was a major component in the mid-west elections. Norway is introducing a moratorium on data centres yet in Ireland, we are still being seen as a soft touch. Thousands of people were out protesting data centres in Dublin over the weekend. They are calling for a moratorium. We need an urgent debate in the D\u00e1il. We need a moratorium on data centres."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Eoghan Kenny I am not sure if it is pure ignorance or a lack of understanding. A senior clinician within Cork University Hospital, CUH, has said that people will die if they are not staffed appropriately. I am requesting that the Government, the Minister for Health and the Taoiseach facilitate statements and questions in the D\u00e1il on the deeply disturbing revelations concerning CUH. The audio recording completely contradicts the record of this House last week given by the Taoiseach. We must have these statements and questions."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle I call Deputy Boyd Barrett."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Eoghan Kenny The people of the southern region deserve much better."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Deputy Kenny, your time is up."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett It is totally inappropriate that while strike action by public sector workers on Thursday is still scheduled, we have a schedule for the D\u00e1il to sit. Until this Government gives workers a decent pay increase, which they have demanded, and workers accept that, there should be no question that it should be scheduling D\u00e1il business on the day they are being forced to take strike action because of their shoddy treatment by this Government."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Collins Absolutely. In relation to short-term lets, it was agreed - and we were long enough looking for it - that there would be full committee pre-legislative scrutiny. We now hear the Bill is going to be railroaded through the D\u00e1il tomorrow. It is totally and utterly unacceptable for the people of rural Ireland who are fighting hard for the little bit of business they have while the Government railroads this through to put them out of business in relation to the planning aspect of short-term lets."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle I thank the Deputy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Collins I ask for proper pre-legislative scrutiny."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle I thank the Deputy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Collins This is hugely important. It was promised to us and needs to be delivered."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Butler I note all of the comments from the Opposition Whips but in respect to this week's business, and without prejudice the ongoing negotiations, I propose that the Order of Business agrees the three-day schedule outlined to the committee last Thursday. If necessary, I will return to the House tomorrow with a further business proposal in relation to Thursday\u2019s sitting and I will continue to engage with the Opposition Whips and the Business Committee, as required, in regard to the sitting on Thursday and whether it will happen. The Order of Business stands."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Are the proposed arrangements of this week\u2019s business agreed to? They are not agreed."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle I understand that in the Gallery we have Ms Shauna Browne, a champion professional boxer from County Tipperary. We have a few in here from Tipperary. She is most welcome. She is a guest of Deputy Mattie McGrath. We wish her all the best."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Lou McDonald Given your last words, a Cheann Comhairle, I feel moved to say the following for the D\u00e1il record: Up Tipp, the premier county. My mother would be proud and happy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mattie McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mattie McGrath I appreciate that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Lou McDonald Deputy McGrath is welcome any time."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle The clock is running."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Lou McDonald The LucidTalk polling over the weekend again reflects opinion north of the Border and the fact that not alone is the conversation around Irish reunification live but momentum is building towards that and therefore preparation for constitutional change in a referendum is absolutely necessary. I welcome the Taoiseach's initiative and the initiative by the Fine Gael Party at its Ard-Fheis over the weekend. Will the Government's actions now include the production of a Green Paper and some form of assembly, whether it is a constitutional forum or a citizens' forum? I am less worried about what it is called but I am very concerned that we would now see tangible actions taking place to engage people on this crucial question."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers I thank Deputy McDonald. Her party and other parties of Government have all reflected positive proposals in this area. What the Taoiseach has said is that there are three priority areas: first, how we can continue to develop and deliver on the shared island initiative, independent of any discussion of constitutional frameworks; second, how we can seek to begin discussions on reform of strand one of the Good Friday Agreement; and third, how we can develop and establish a new initiative to develop the evidence base for a debate on future constitutional frameworks on which we want to get broader engagement. All of those respective initiatives reflect the broader public opinion which is evolving across the island."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Aidan Farrelly The Government is ignoring the cost-of-living crisis that is crippling families. It is ignoring the climate crisis that is crippling communities. It is ignoring its own just transition commission by deciding to increase the cost of using public transport from January 2027. It beggars belief that this Government is choosing to negatively impact our pockets, thus sending people back to their cars. More cars mean more congestion. The Social Democrats are using its Private Members' business time this week to call on the Government to reduce and reverse the public transport fare increases. Will the Minister use his position as Minister for public expenditure to do a U-turn on this political decision and reverse the public transport fare hikes?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers There has to be sustainability in terms of our public transport system. The level of subvention from central government to the National Transport Authority to support the public transport network is continuing to increase and will again in 2027. We want to significantly expand services. That is striking the right balance between continued expansion of the subvention from the Government but also having sustainability across our fare system. We have had a series of years of reductions and retention at a particular rate. In most European economies, there are some increases of transport fares. That is to ensure that we protect services but also expand them. In the communities I represent, they are as focused on a big expansion of transport services as well. We have to ensure that is balanced, both with the fares and the subvention from the State."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ivana Bacik Speaking of boxing, we saw the T\u00e1naiste pushing down this weekend with comments about jobseekers and more punching down, unfortunately, by the State of carers this week. I am grateful to the Every Child Matters campaign and Labour Party's Councillor Ali Field for bringing to my attention this email that was sent by Intreo to recipients of carer's allowance this week. It said: Dear customer, as a carer's allowance recipient, we recognise that your caring responsibilities are your priority. However, if you would like to learn more about a flexible, short-term employment opportunity that may fit around your circumstances the following role may be of interest. It is seeking to recruit for a specific role, and it is causing enormous distress and concern to carers. It sounds as if parents caring around the clock are assumed to have spare hours to fill. As Ali said, it is an absolute disgrace. They really have no idea what being a carer entails. Carers are exhausted from filling gaps in State services."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle A question, Deputy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ivana Bacik When will the Government stop treating carers as a workforce to be mobilised and start treating them as people who deserve to be supported? They are facing the sharp cut off the cruel means test and-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Time is up, Deputy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ivana Bacik -----this really adds insult to injury."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers If we look at the record of the previous two budgets in terms of the income disregard, we have made significant progress for carers in line with what we set out in the programme for Government, and rightly so. We know the huge contribution that carers make in communities across the country. I am not aware of the specific example the Deputy has given. The Department of Social Protection has always worked in a very sensitive way with different recipients of different supports. We acknowledge the huge contributions carers make to their families and their loved ones. That will continue to be a priority for us through the next series of budgets."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ruth Coppinger A patient was admitted to Connolly Hospital last Wednesday with a significant brain bleed. The consultant recommended an MRI to figure out what was wrong but the MRI machine has been broken for a week. The man with very complex and other medical conditions as well has not been able to get an MRI in Connolly Hospital in Blanchardstown. They were not able to outsource his care to get the MRI needed. How can a hospital with a stroke unit and other medical needs have a broken MRI machine for nearly a week? It is not the first time I have raised Connolly Hospital. I raised the CT scanner, which was broken. Now, we have an MRI machine. This is causing huge stress for the relative who contacted me, and who I have just spoken to, but also to staff who do not know what to do with the backup of patients. Lives are being endangered by this. It is the Minister's local hospital. He really ought to be ashamed of himself that this is continuing to happen in a major Dublin hospital in his own back yard."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister for Health (Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill) I thank the Deputy for raising that. I will find out what is happening with the MRI machine and get back to the Deputy directly."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard O'Donoghue The Government is going to stop the short-term lets Bill going to committee for an open discussion on it. That is what it thinks of the people in the hospitality sector providing short-term lets. The housing Minister has not released the up-to-date guidelines on planning permissions. Our local authorities are waiting for them, the people who are building their own houses are waiting for them and the people who want to put a roof over their children's heads are waiting for them but the Government has not done that either. However, it has said it is not even going to discuss the short-term lets Bill, that it is going to guillotine it and that it is going to be put to a vote. The Government has no alternatives to even giving planning permission to people who want to build their own houses. They are not depending on the State. The Government cannot even come up with the guidelines for that in a timely fashion."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers The Chief Whip has informed me there will be four hours of debate tomorrow around the short-term lettings legislation."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard O'Donoghue It is not going to committee."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers There will be four hours of debate for Committee and Remaining Stages here. The Deputy will have plenty of time to reflect his position and the Minister will respond to any queries he has."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail Two weeks ago, the Minister and I attended the commencement of the works on DART+ West, which is extremely welcome news. The medium to long-term solution is DART+ West and South West, in particular for commuters in Kildare. However, in the short term a lot of commuters in Maynooth, Leixlip, Hazelhatch and Celbridge are complaining of overcrowding on trains, in particular in the mornings and evenings. I ask that additional carriages are afforded onto the train lines, including the Maynooth line, which goes on to Sligo, and the Hazelhatch and Celbridge lines to ensure overcrowding does not continue. DART+ will help in the medium to long term but we need immediate solutions."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers I thank the Deputy. It it is great that both of our constituencies will see the real benefit of this transformative public transport project. It will make a huge difference in terms of frequency, capacity and the modernisation of the line, which has been promised for 20 years. The Government is getting it started and will get it done. I will reflect that issue, which I know is a pressing issue in the Deputy's constituency as well as mine. There are particular points in the day where there are capacity issues and constraints where there is a strong uptake in public transport. I will reflect that to the Minister, Deputy O'Brien."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Grace Boland I very much welcome the enhanced grants for solar panels and battery storage. There has been strong interest from households in my area of Dublin Fingal. However, many older homes require electrical upgrades before they can be installed safely. Issues include undersized electrical meter tails and outdated wiring, the cost of which can be significant. As a result, people who qualify for the grants cannot afford to upgrade the electricity requirements in order to install solar batteries and solar panels. Will the Government consider a targeted grant to support a essential electrical works where they are required for solar or battery installation? I have written to the Minister on this but I would appreciate the support of the Minister, Deputy Chambers."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers I thank Deputy Boland. I appreciate it may be an issue for many homes which were built a number of decades ago and where there is a specific requirement for electrical upgrades. In all grants we have, whether with respect to SEAI for solar or other matters, there is a need to prioritise and target particular areas. We need to be careful. If we were to go down a new avenue, as the Deputy suggested - there is a good rationale behind why she would suggest such a change - ultimately we have to consider whether that has an impact on core grant support in existing schemes through the SEAI. We have had significant expansion by the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, to try to have improved absorption of that particular grant support. We need to be careful that measures are targeted at the particular area we want to address, that is, the direct uptake of solar. If we get into other areas of intervention, that could have an impact on our support for grants."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor D. McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Conor D. McGuinness I have been contacted by families across Waterford, from Tallow to the Comeraghs, about the lack of transport for those attending adult day services. Many people who availed of school transport when attending St. John's Special School in Dungarvan have been left without any transport as they transition to adult day services. Some parents are paying privately hand over fist for inappropriate transport to get their children to adult day services and others are considering giving up their employment. I raised this matter with the Department of Health and HSE. They have advised me, in response to a parliamentary question, that no new funding has been provided to the HSE for the running costs of providing transport, including drivers for individuals to and from day services. Will the Minister for public expenditure work to address that shortfall?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers I thank Deputy McGuinness. I regret that people have not seen their service continue as he has described. I will reflect that to the HSE in respect of the particular transport service. I do not have the details before me. The HSE is well funded, as I said in an earlier contribution. It is important that specific health regions plan services where they know there is a demand in any given year. I will reflect that and ask the HSE to respond to the Deputy comprehensively."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Brennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Brian-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Brian Brennan I again want to speak about dereliction. I welcome the Government's many initiatives on this subject, especially in relation to the collection of derelict property tax by Revenue. However, this can only happen if properties are registered. Take Arklow for example. It is a town where billions of euro of investment in industry is due over the coming years but the residents and businesses are totally frustrated by the lack of action on dereliction on its main streets. On 8 July, there were only two properties listed in Arklow and only four properties listed in the whole of County Wicklow. I am calling on the Government to ensure action is taken by the county councils on dereliction, as this is a scourge and cancer on the social fabric of so many towns and villages throughout Ireland."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers I thank Deputy Brennan. I share the goal of ending dereliction in terms of the wider policy objective of Government, and a new derelict property tax will make a real impact on this. It is legislated for in the Finance (No. 2) Bill 2026. The aim is absolutely focused on regeneration, not on revenue, and success will be measured by properties restored and homes created, not tax collected. It replaces the local authority derelict sites levy, which we know was not working properly across the country, at the same 7% rate with Revenue now administering the charge for the first time. It will make a real impact on delivering across our shared objective of reducing a lot of the dereliction we see in too many towns and villages across the country."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Malcolm Byrne I want to raise the case of Dealz stores nationwide. As the Minister may be aware, its UK parent company, Poundland, has gone into administration. This is causing a lot of concern for the 70 Dealz stores in Ireland. There are about 3,000 employees who are impacted. The Dealz stores in Ireland, by all accounts, seem to be viable. My local Dealz store in Gorey has 17 people employed. I spoke at the weekend with Grace and Pippi, who are there. The Minister will understand the lack of certainty in the run-up to Christmas. Can the Minister assure us that the Government will engage fully and will try to provide any support to anyone who may be interested in buying the Irish stores?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers I thank Deputy Byrne. I understand that Poundland has filed notice of its intention to appoint an administrator to the company in the UK but I can confirm the Minister for enterprise has not received a notification of collective redundancies from Poundland or Dealz in Ireland. As per the legislation, if an employer does become insolvent, the State ensures there are strong protections in place for affected workers. I appreciate coming up to Christmas is a particularly uncertain time for all involved. I do not want to speculate on media reports given the evolving position but I wish to set out the factual position relating to the Minister for enterprise at this point."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh Too many households in Mayo and across the State are living on a week-to-week basis, crippled by the relentless cost-of-living crisis. As we head into Christmas and into winter, families are stretched to breaking point, juggling soaring grocery bills with energy and fuel costs, childcare, tolls, insurance, and I could go on and on. Budget 2027 supports barely scratch the surface. Sinn F\u00e9in proposed a \u20ac500 everyday essentials card to help households put food on the table and ease the pressure of the frightening grocery costs. That was costed at \u20ac500 million in our alternative budget. I am asking the Minister whether the Government will reconsider this proposal and support 1 million struggling households before the winter hardship deepens even further. People cannot afford to live."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers We absolutely recognise the serious cost-of-living pressures facing many families. That is why we have had targeted supports through the social protection system with a \u20ac2 billion allocation there. Specific changes have been made to the taxation of energy around home heating oil and around the continued reduction of excise across fuel, and also other supports related to fuel allowance. We have made specific interventions and targeted many working families. On what Sinn F\u00e9in has come up with, is that where it is when it comes to policy development - a card for everybody - as if that is going to resolve the issues relating to the cost of living? To say that would be administered within the next number of weeks is not being honest with people. We have continued the Christmas bonus and a significant social protection package that is targeted at low-income families, and the changes we have made to taxation are progressive as well."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh You think people have enough."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Roderic O'Gorman A damning new report on greyhound racing in Ireland shows that this industry is based around the premature death of thousands of dogs. The report does not come from an animal welfare NGO or an Opposition party; it comes from the Parliamentary Budget Office. Greyhounds should live for ten to 15 years but the report shows that 10,000 have died in Ireland before their sixth birthday and 20,000 are exported out of the jurisdiction, where we have no control over their welfare standards. For how long will the Government continue to allow this carnage? Is the Minister satisfied with \u20ac20 million of taxpayers' money being spent to prop up an industry that is based upon the premature death of thousands of dogs?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers I acknowledge the report to which the Deputy referred. For the Minister, Deputy Heydon, animal welfare remains an absolute priority for the sector. It absolutely is a focus for him and for the Department of agriculture. The wider fund that is there is associated with the need to support the economic and geographic importance of greyhound racing in certain communities in Ireland. There has been a real focus in the Department on animal welfare and it is a specific focus of the Minister in the context of the greyhound fund. He will be able to set out further details and information in that regard."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathal Crowe My question is for the Minister for Health. There are concerns regarding the planned hospital development at Raheen in Limerick. In March this year, the Minister announced that the HSE had secured a 44-acre site in Raheen to progress option B of the HIQA recommendations and expand University Hospital Limerick, UHL, to a two-site hospital campus. However, the recently published terms of reference for the mid-west health planning board make no reference whatsoever to a new acute hospital or additional inpatient beds. Instead, they refer to the future development of the site, including the relocation of outpatient services in the first instance. Patients groups such as Friends of Ennis Hospital, chaired by Ms Angela Coll, are understandably questioning whether the original ambition for the site will be realised. I am sure the Minister will agree that people in Clare and the wider mid-west region have endured years of overcrowding at UHL and cannot put up with it any longer. The language is really important. Are we going to get a new acute hospital or is this some in-between solution? Will she clarify what the Government intends to be done with the site?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill The Government set out the greatest ambition in embracing options A, B and C and purchasing a very significant site, which is slightly larger than the Dooradoyle site, for the development of extremely important new healthcare facilities for the region. What is particularly important for the good people of County Clare, whom the Deputy represents so well in this House, is that it is not only about a hospital in Limerick but also about all the services right across Clare, including the community hospital in Ennistymon and the excellent hospital in Ennis."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathal Crowe Is the plan still to build a new acute hospital?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill The development board has been tasked with delivering all of those things rather than having a singular focus on Limerick. We have an ambitious plan for the region, which very specifically includes the development of an additional hospital. However, I do not want it to be limited to that. Having the dialogue exclusively about Limerick is unhelpful to the excellent people of Clare and Tipperary, who also need to have all of their services lifted."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Willie O'Dea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Willie-O'Dea.D.1982-03-09","memberCode":"Willie-O'Dea.D.1982-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Willie O'Dea Seven weeks have elapsed since I last raised in here the CCTV system for Limerick city and county. During that seven-week period, hardly a day has passed when I have not been involved in imploring, pleading with and begging Ministers to bring the matter to a resolution and put a sustainable system in place. It is extremely disappointing that nothing has happened so far. I cannot overemphasise the catastrophic consequences for crime detection and prevention in Limerick if the system ceases to exist. Given that public safety is the first responsibility of any government, will this matter be resolved and, if so, when? The deadline is upon us. The people who operate the cameras have been given their notice and the system is about to come to an end."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers I appreciate that the Deputy raised this with me a number of weeks ago. My office has been engaging directly with both the Departments of housing and justice and their Ministers to bring a positive resolution to this matter. I understand the importance of this system, as the Deputy properly and comprehensively described, for crime prevention and detection. We need to bring about a positive resolution that gives certainty to its future and ensures it is protected. We are working on that and we hope to bring it to a conclusion shortly."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney In last weeks midterms AI data centres proved to be a potent political and electoral force. Similarly, people took to the streets this last weekend, including myself, to ask for moratorium. I hosted a briefing last week on a separate but connected issue relating to a specific data centre in Ireland. This was based on a report from Ek\u00f4 on the Almunasseq app, the data for which is hosted here in Irish data centres. This is the system of permissions that is used to restrict the movements of Palestinian people, to decide when they can go to the doctor, when they can visit their families, and when they can go to work. An independent review found that it has incredibly invasive permissions that are tantamount to full surveillance where they track users around the clock even when the GPS is off and where they can silently copy their files. This is not possible without the companies which provide it, in this case Microsoft and the data centres that host the data, which are here in Ireland. We have duties under GDPR-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle A question, Deputy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney -----and under our signatory to the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination. Is the Department of enterprise or the Data Protection Commission going to act on this? Will the Minister's Government act to investigate the enabling of the crime of apartheid on Irish soil as a matter of urgency and hold these tech companies to account?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers As the Deputy will know, the Data Protection Commission is totally independent of Government-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney The Department of enterprise is not."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Deputy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jack Chambers -----and it is a matter for it to investigate any matter that the Deputy wishes to report to it."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"An tOrd Gn\u00f3 - Order of Business"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_15","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Tender To Payment (Public Spending Transparency) Bill 2026: First Stage","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_15","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Albert Dolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Albert Dolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Albert Dolan I move: That leave be granted to introduce a Bill entitled an Act to provide for the transparency of public expenditure; to require that public spending be capable of being traced from tender, through contract award, contract, purchase order and invoice, to final payment; to establish a Public Spending Ledger linking those stages; to require the standardised, structured and machine-readable reporting of public expenditure by public bodies, including in respect of public procurement, grant disbursements and transfers between public bodies; to provide for a unique supplier identifier and for a basis to be recorded for every payment, including recurring and non-order payments; to provide for the linking of payments to the authority under which they arise; to provide for aggregated reporting of public funding received by non-public bodies; to provide for disclosure obligations in respect of special purpose vehicles; to provide for the interoperability of the Ledger with the public procurement data infrastructure of the European Union; to provide for oversight, audit, assurance and sanctions; to make consequential amendments to the Freedom of Information Act 2014 and the Comptroller and Auditor General (Amendment) Act 1993; and to provide for related matters. The first duty of Government is to serve its people. That carries a responsibility to manage public money with care, with competence and with accountability. We cannot meet that responsibility if we cannot reliably account for how that money is spent. This is what this Bill seeks to make possible. Over the past two years, I have spent considerable time examining public procurement and how the State records and reports its expenditure. What surprised me most was how many basic questions we still cannot reliably answer. How much does the State spend on procurement each year? How much does it spend with individual suppliers? When a contract is awarded how much is ultimately paid under that contract, and was what we paid for actually delivered? These are questions that any organisation should be able to answer. We have procurement systems, we have financial management systems and we have contract award notices and purchase order reports. We have the pieces but we cannot reliably put them together. This Bill would establish a public spending ledger, creating a golden thread from the original tender, contract award, purchase orders and invoices, right through to the final payment. It would require public bodies to report regularly, linking payments to the contracts, grants or other authorities under which they were made, and recording changes to contracts. If a public body was to receive or to award a contract for \u20ac10 million, we should be able to see who received it, what was agreed, whether the contract changed, and how much was ultimately paid. The Bill does not require public bodies to replace their existing financial systems. It requires them to report information in a consistent way so that it can be connected and understood. This would help us identify where payments exceed agreed contract values, compare what public bodies pay for similar goods and services, and ask whether what we paid for was actually delivered. I want to acknowledge the people of Galway East who gave me the privilege of representing them in this House. I know how hard they work for their money and I believe it is my responsibility in this House to make sure their money is spent well. This Bill builds on decades of work by people who have sought to make the State more open and accountable, from freedom of information and open data to the work of public servants, campaigners and ordinary citizens. Over the past two years, I have learned that even relatively small changes can take considerable time, effort and persistence. I have seen public bodies respond constructively and make real improvements. I have also learned that change is possible. The progress we make today builds on the work of those who came before us. We have a responsibility, not just to maintain the institutions we inherit but to improve them for the generations that follow. Se\u00e1n Lemass and T.K. Whitaker understood that Ireland could not build a modern economy by continuing to do things as they had always been done. They helped to change how the State thought, planned and acted. Our generation should bring that same ambition to modernising the State itself, how it manages public money, how it learns from its experiences and, above all, how it serves its people. This Bill will not on its own solve the challenges facing public spending. Better information does not automatically produce better decisions but without good information, we condemn ourselves to repeat mistakes we should have learned from. The State needs to buy better, manage its contracts better and, above all, deliver better for the people it exists to serve. I commend the Bill to the House."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Is the Bill opposed?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Deputy Mary Butler) No."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Since this is a Private Members' Bill, Second Stage must, under Standing Orders, be taken in Private Members' time."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Albert Dolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Albert Dolan I move: \"That the Bill be taken in Private Members' time.\""},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Tender To Payment (Public Spending Transparency) Bill 2026: First Stage"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_16","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Local Government (Room Charges) Bill 2026: First Stage","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_16","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ged Nash I move: That leave be granted to introduce a Bill entitled an Act to enable local authorities to make charges in respect of the occupation of rooms in hotels and guesthouses, and of certain other premises used for holiday or guest accommodation, and to provide for related matters. This is a straightforward Bill. Its intention is to provide local authorities with a clear legislative framework within which they can be enabled to introduce an accommodation levy. While tourism growth benefits local economies, the associated infrastructure costs, maintenance of public spaces, waste management, transport, cultural and recreational facilities fall on local authorities without a dedicated revenue stream linked to the volume of visitors. The Bill addresses this gap by providing a legal basis for a locally determined accommodation charge, commonly referred to as a tourist tax or bed tax, a standard feature of the fiscal architecture in most European countries. France, Germany, Italy, Spain, the Netherlands, Belgium and Austria all operate accommodation levies of one kind or another, typically at municipal or regional level and typically ranging from \u20ac1 to \u20ac5 per person per night, depending on the category of accommodation. In the UK, Manchester introduced a city visitor charge in 2023. In Ireland, the matter has been the subject of recurring policy discussion. The Tourism Action Plan 2023-2025 identified an accommodation levy as a potential revenue instrument for local authorities. Proposals were considered by the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media. The Bill does not require any local authority to adopt the scheme, nor does it specify the rate of the charge. Instead, the scheme enables each local authority to decide whether to set a rate in the first place, or different rates for different categories of accommodation, appropriate to its own circumstances. The charge as envisaged in the Bill is imposed on the room provider rather than directly on the occupant. It is recoverable by the local authority as a simple contract debt. The amount of the charge, the area to which it applies and the return on payment dates are all matters for determination by the local authority under its adopted scheme. The Bill also provides for the Revenue Commissioners to share relevant VAT registration and returns information with local authorities to assist them in identifying room providers operating within their areas and in verifying the accuracy of charges paid. The charge as designed would be applied to hotels, guesthouses and self-catering accommodation let on a short-term basis. It does not apply to caravan parks or camping sites. I note that similar legislative proposals have been published, for example, by Deputy McAuliffe, who is in the Chamber this afternoon. However, there appears to be no common Government position on the principle of an accommodation levy. We in Labour see the legislation proposed today through the lens of our commitment to broadening the revenue base. We also see the principle of a room charge as a potential, fair and sustainable revenue-raising measure that would allow cash-starved local authorities to generate more of their own income to improve services and the environment for local residents. We have one of the most centralised forms of decision-making in Europe, and a local authority system that is better described as local administration than as local government. We should trust good local elected representatives who are prepared to be held accountable on the generation and spending of locally sourced revenue. As the derelict sites levy transitions to a tax collected by Revenue, something for which I have been advocating for years, this income stream will be lost by local authorities, as envisaged by the finance Bill. A way needs to be found to ring-fence the tax collected and to ensure its full value is returned to the local authority area within which the subject properties lie. The Bill before us today would also allow a local authority to define an area within its administrative area in terms of where it chooses to deploy such a levy or charge. In other words, a local authority can identify some areas within its own administrative area to target or deploy the charges envisaged in this legislation. For the avoidance of doubt, this legislation does not force any local authority to introduce room charges. Such a move would be, as envisaged under this Bill, at the local authority's democratic discretion entirely."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle I thank the Deputy. Is the Bill being opposed?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Deputy Mary Butler) It is not opposed."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Since this is a Private Members' Bill, Second Stage must, under Standing Orders, be taken in Private Members' time."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ged Nash I move: \"That the Bill be taken in Private Members' time.\""},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Local Government (Room Charges) Bill 2026: First Stage"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_17","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Sixteenth Report of the Standing Committee of Selection and Appointment of Committee Cathaoirligh: Motion","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_17","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Deputy Mary Butler) I move: That D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann, pursuant to Standing Order 33, and with effect from 11th November, 2026\u2014 ( a ) approves the Sixteenth Report of the Standing Committee of Selection in accordance with Standing Order 33, copies of which were laid before D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann on 6th November, 2026, and appoints members to a Committee accordingly; and ( b ) appoints Deputy Ruth Coppinger to be Cathaoirleach of the Committee on Preventing and Responding to Domestic, Sexual and Gender-Based Violence."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Sixteenth Report of the Standing Committee of Selection and Appointment of Committee Cathaoirligh: Motion"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_18","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna - Questions","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":false,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_18","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna - Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_19","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Cabinet Committees","counts":{"speechCount":19,"speakerCount":16},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_18","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_18","showAs":"Ceisteanna - Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_19","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter 'Chap' Cleere","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-'Chap'-Cleere.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Peter-'Chap'-Cleere.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tony McCormack","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tony-McCormack.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Tony-McCormack.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aindrias Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brendan Smith","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brendan-Smith.D.1992-12-14","memberCode":"Brendan-Smith.D.1992-12-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin Hayes","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor D. McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_19.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I propose to take questions Nos. 1 to 16, inclusive, together. The Cabinet committee on water quality oversees implementation of programme for Government commitments in relation to Ireland's water, including those related to pressures from agriculture, forestry, land use and wastewater treatment. Water is vital to the well-being of our society, economy and environment and the programme for Government commits to improving the health of our rivers, lakes and estuaries and of our coastal and groundwaters. The Environmental Protection Agency, EPA's, indicator report on water quality in 2025 noted some improvements at a local level, with 54% of rivers and lakes recorded as having good or better biological equality. Some 98% of bathing waters met or exceeded minimum standards. We continue to have concerns regarding nutrient loads in certain parts of the country. While EPA analysis shows that significant challenges remain, it is important to recognise the progress that has been made. An example of positive improvement is the Ballyteigue-Bannow catchment in County Wexford, seeing the biological quality of a number of its rivers improve. Budget 2027 allocates almost \u20ac2.3 billion to Uisce \u00c9ireann in 2027. This includes \u20ac1.5 billion in capital funding to build essential capacity and increase the resilience and sustainability of our water supply for new water and wastewater connections, enabling the delivery of new homes, and to deliver upgrades to wastewater treatment infrastructure, improving water quality, protecting the environment and enhancing compliance with regulatory standards. This investment will progress over 400 projects across the country next year, including the eastern and midlands region water supply project, the greater Dublin drainage scheme and the wastewater treatment plant upgrades in Limerick and Waterford. The water action plan, published last year, sets out over 150 actions to protect, improve and restore water quality. These include the implementation and tracking of the water action plans, the development of a stronger sixth nitrates action programme, the farming for water European innovation partnership, EIP, project and the national barrier mitigation programme, which will support fish migration and water quality. The sixth nitrates action programme was published by the Minister, Deputy Browne, in December and will run until 2028. This plan gives effect to the nitrates directive, which governs the management of nitrate loss from agriculture to water bodies. On foot of the measures included in this plan, the European Commission granted Ireland a three-year extension on its nitrates derogation in December 2025. The Minister, Deputy Heydon, is working with his officials to address key conditions within the derogation decision, including the undertaking of the environmental assessments to demonstrate enhanced compliance with the nitrates derogation, the habitats directive and the water framework directive."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle There are 15 Members drawn to speak. I am proposing 45 seconds each. I will keep Members in check. That is to allow a decent answer. I call Deputy Heneghan."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Barry Heneghan Last December, I raised the issue of flood defence being included in the Critical Infrastructure Act. I am seeking an update on that. My constituency and my constituents have waited far too long. With regard to water quality, I raised the issue of using nature-based solutions with the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine last week. I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Moran's work with the 3D-printed bollards for flood defence, but flood defence and water quality should be going hand in hand. I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan, who brought me to D\u00fan Laoghaire's oyster farms, which show that oysters can clean water at 190 litres per day. We should be using 3D-printed flood defences that protect the oysters that clean our water. We should be breaking the waves but not breaking the ecosystem. I ask the Taoiseach for an update on that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter 'Chap' Cleere","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-'Chap'-Cleere.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Peter-'Chap'-Cleere.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peter 'Chap' Cleere The Nore, Suir and Barrow, known as the Three Sisters, traverse the heart of Carlow and Kilkenny. Last year, the EPA found that two of the most nitrogen-polluted waterways in the whole country were right where the Barrow and the Nore met. Last week, the EPA reported that more than half of our wastewater plants were failing the standards set to stop pollution. Meanwhile, in Bennettsbridge on the banks of the River Nore, the wastewater plant upgrade was approved years ago but it will not be finished until 2030. It is not good enough and it is not acceptable that in Mullinavat and Inistioge the plants are at full capacity. Graiguenamanagh, sitting on the River Barrow, is in dire need of an upgrade too. These villages need to be looked after. They need the money locked in and they need a date. We know that Uisce \u00c9ireann is drawing up its first national wastewater plan out to 2055. When the committee meets next, will it make sure that the plan prioritises the small towns, villages and rivers that the EPA says are under pressure, with funding and clear timelines provided?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tony McCormack","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tony-McCormack.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Tony-McCormack.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Tony McCormack I want to acknowledge the significant investment that this Government is making in water infrastructure, and rightly so, but we have an opportunity now to strengthen accountability and communication from the public bodies responsible for delivering these essential services. To take the example of Birr in my own constituency, residents and businesses have endured repeated water outages, causing considerable problems. I have raised this at our infrastructure committee. What concerns me is the quality of information that we are receiving from Uisce \u00c9ireann. It is not just individual TDs who are receiving generic replies that fail to address the questions asked. Even formal requests for further information from Oireachtas committees can be met with vague responses that provide little additional detail. Could we look at introducing a formal system requiring public bodies to respond directly to each question raised by an Oireachtas committee within clear timelines and to provide further clarification where answers are inadequate?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aindrias Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Aindrias Moynihan We are approaching winter with the possibility of more rain, cattle inside and around the yard, and silage pits opened. Farmers are very much alive to the risks to water quality. They will be out around their yards making sure that every action is taken to ensure a safe water quality. They have even been building extra slurry capacity. They are playing their part and they expect that others, including the likes of Uisce \u00c9ireann, would also step up to the plate and play their part. It is very frustrating to see wastewater from the Ballingeary treatment plant being discharged into the River Lee by Uisce \u00c9ireann. The nitrates derogation is hugely important for farmers. Last week, the Minister expressed concern that some farms may not be able to retain the derogation even though Ireland as a whole may. The subcatchment results are due out next year. Can we make sure that Uisce \u00c9ireann pulls its weight and delivers capacity?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brendan Smith","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brendan-Smith.D.1992-12-14","memberCode":"Brendan-Smith.D.1992-12-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Brendan Smith As the Taoiseach knows, the small towns and villages growth programme provides for investment in water and wastewater infrastructure in the smaller towns and villages that are not included in Uisce \u00c9ireann's main capital plan. Such investment would enable housing developments in those small towns and villages, where we already have good social infrastructure, including schools, community centres, sporting facilities, shops and health facilities. There is a constant problem now with traffic in our larger towns, so the dispersal of the population in the future would be very beneficial. We would be adding relatively small numbers to towns and villages that already have infrastructure in place, bar water and sewerage systems of a certain standard."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul Lawless There are major issues with Uisce \u00c9ireann right across the country. In Mayo, for example, in the Johnstown Lavellyroe group water scheme, which was taken over recently by Uisce \u00c9ireann, there have been major problems. Over the past five months, there have been 22 days of outages. This is happening at a time when Uisce \u00c9ireann has paid \u20ac18 million in performance-related bonuses to its staff and its CEO has received a pay increase of \u20ac118,000, bringing his salary to almost \u20ac400,000. How is this justifiable?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh Recent alarming reports from the United States confirm that hackers have targeted water infrastructure across 12 states, highlighting the growing threat to critical national infrastructure. I raised this with the Taoiseach in December 2023 and again in February 2024 when a local group water scheme in Mayo was hacked. As Chair of the defence and national security committee, I am acutely aware of the dangers posed by cyberattacks and hybrid warfare and the need to invest in our preparedness. Water security is a national security issue. A successful attack could compromise drinking water quality, disrupt essential services and endanger public life. We cannot afford complacency or to underestimate the likelihood and potentially devastating consequences of such an attack. I want to know what proactive measures the Taoiseach is taking."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin Hayes","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Eoin Hayes One of my favourite things about representing the constituency of Dublin Bay South is Dublin Bay. The Taoiseach might know that, this past summer, bathing along Dublin Bay was restricted. Imagine my shock to learn that the Ailesbury pump station pumps raw sewage onto Sandymount Strand once every month and Uisce \u00c9ireann says it will take between five and ten years to rehabilitate the situation. There is a severe issue with residential, agricultural and industrial effluent going into our waterways. What are the Taoiseach and the Government going to do to enforce the standards people need to rely on proper, clean water, including in Dublin Bay?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Collins Last week, the EPA announced a figure of 11 towns and villages discharging raw sewage into clear waters. That is an absolute farce and a lie because there are 11 of them in west Cork alone, never mind 11 nationally. I cannot understand how the EPA can pull out these figures. Stop conning the people. There are the people of Goleen, Shannonvale, Ballydehob and Rosscarbery. There is the Ouvane river. There is raw sewage pouring into the rivers and people are blaming the farmers. There is something wrong here somewhere. Uisce \u00c9ireann has to get it right. The EPA certainly cannot get it right. Uisce \u00c9ireann cannot deliver a proper treatment plant. It is continuously hiding behind everything and getting well paid for doing that. It is time for delivery to these areas that in some cases are waiting 25 years."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Danny Healy-Rae As the Taoiseach is well aware, Ballyheigue has been without water for almost seven weeks. One way or another, to resolve this matter, pipe laying will have to start and water will have to be taken from Ardfert, which comes from Killarney, towards Ballyheigue. I am asking that the Glenderry system be opened again to supplement. It worked well for almost 60 years. Time is going by and people are entitled to water and should have it. I ask the Government to liaise with Uisce \u00c9ireann to put a bit of a spur to the thing and to start laying pipes immediately."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor D. McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Conor D. McGuinness Communities across County Waterford are being failed by repeated water supply problems, with no sign of lasting solutions. In Tallow and Dungarvan, separate faults have led to week-long outages and \"boil water\" notices, and these towns continue to experience low pressure. In Glencairn, water tankers have become an almost permanent fixture. Deelish, Mount Melleray, Kilmacthomas, Touraneena, Portlaw and Bunmahon are villages and towns experiencing sporadic water outages and pressure problems. People are being left without a reliable basic service while temporary fixes replace investment in infrastructure. The system is being patched every time until the system is basically comprised of patches. Will the Taoiseach ensure that Uisce \u00c9ireann produces a properly funded long-term plan to resolve these problems and improve advance notifications of outages?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pa Daly For the best part of six weeks, there have been 3,500 households in Kilmoyley, Causeway and Ballyheigue under a \"do not consume\" notice. Elected representatives have been receiving daily updates but get no answers in those updates. The updates say that the work is progressing. They say that investigations have commenced. They say that assessments are ongoing. However, the basic questions have not been answered. How was it caused? How long will it proceed? Will the perfectly good Glenderry sandstone water pump station, which was closed during the summer, be reopened to at least give temporary water to people in the Ballyheigue area? It is an easy fix to part of the problem there. Will the Taoiseach ensure that it is done as a matter of urgency?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Roderic O'Gorman I raise the ongoing environmental disaster in Lough Neagh. The lough has been severely impacted by green algae in recent years to the extent that it risks becoming an ecological dead zone. My colleagues in the Green Party Northern Ireland have been highlighting this mounting crisis for a long time, but action in Stormont has been extremely slow. Given that we share one environment on this island, is this a matter that the shared island function in the Taoiseach's Department can raise with the Northern Ireland Executive, in particular with Andrew Muir, the minister for agriculture and environment?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Whitmore Last year, 55% of wastewater treatment plants in Ireland discharged polluted water into our rivers and seas. Some 50% of those failures were simply due to operational issues, such as not maintaining equipment and not having sufficient training in place. It is clear that Uisce \u00c9ireann is not doing its job properly. Will the Taoiseach explain to me again how it is the case that the CEO of Uisce \u00c9ireann got nearly \u20ac120,000 extra in their salary this year and nearly \u20ac18 million was given to staff last year in performance-related bonuses? There is someone in senior management at Uisce \u00c9ireann who cannot even ensure that equipment is being maintained and they are allowing our waters to be polluted by their failures. How are they being paid to do that?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach We started with Deputy Heneghan in terms of flood defences, nature-based solutions and the utilisation of oyster farms. First of all, in terms of flood defence, we have extensive investment under way in terms of flood defences, but they take time. There has to be significant public consultation. There can be a lot of objections to flood defences, as we know and as we have experienced all over the country, but the plans are detailed and it is important to get them right. The problem is the timeline that is involved. I will talk to the Minister. The Minister has identified some public transport projects and he has listed them as part of the Critical Infrastructure Act. However, if you list everything, then it is no longer a priority. That is a challenge with the legislation. We have quite a number of critical flood defences that we want in place, but the Office of Public Works, OPW, is working on those with the county councils and with the public. Some of them are intricate, complex and so on. The EPA has approved nature-based solutions for wastewater treatment, particularly for new housing developments in small towns and villages. The uptake on that has not been strong, but it is now available. The Deputy said that the Minister of State, Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan, had taken him to the oyster farm. He is very enthusiastic about that. There is potential there, without question, and we will be expanding those types of approach into the future. In terms of the Nore, the Suir and the Barrow, and in response to Deputy Cleere, first of all, I will engage with Uisce \u00c9ireann. The Deputy is saying that half the plants are failing. I suppose the backdrop to many of the questions is that Uisce \u00c9ireann was established more than a decade ago. I was in opposition at the time, just to clarify. We reached an agreement around 2016, but it seems to me that we lost a bit of local knowledge in the local authorities, which could have been valuable. Equally, to be fair to Uisce \u00c9ireann, it inherited a substantial deficit in terms of historic deficiency in the existing water supply, pipelines and so on, and that has to be caught up on. This Government has allocated very substantial moneys to Uisce \u00c9ireann and we have said that there has to be better communication with Deputies in respect of how it communicates to the public at large in terms of outages, water being switched off and so on. That is something that we are constantly on to Uisce \u00c9ireann about. It has established a unit within its organisation. The budget for 2027 is \u20ac2.3 billion and that includes \u20ac1.5 billion in capital funding. That is for essential capacity, increased resilience, sustainability of the supply, new water and wastewater treatment connections, and the delivery of upgrades to wastewater treatment plants improving water quality. There is a lot of money allocated, but I accept the point that Deputy Cleere and others have made in terms of outcomes and outputs and I will talk to Uisce \u00c9ireann in respect of that Nore-Barrow intersection that the Deputy described as being particularly difficult. I am not in a position to give the Deputy dates now. Sometimes, I am careful of when organisations are asked to give dates because the dates can be too long into the future. We need to keep the pressure on to get interim solutions as well as the more longer term solutions. Deputy McCormack spoke about accountability, communication, Birr and so on. A unit was established in Uisce \u00c9ireann following representations from Members of the House and, indeed, local councillors. We have to look at this again regarding what the Deputy said and to develop some system. What I do not want, to be frank, is a system that overloads the administration with hundreds of questions. That can snarl up. However, there is clearly a gap from what I am hearing from everyone in the House on a repeated basis. As to Deputy Moynihan\u2019s point, winter is approaching. Some days it is winterish, other days it is not. However, I take his point. Farming communities are very aware of the issues, particularly in the context of the nitrates directive. Some catchment areas are more vulnerable and challenging than others. I have repeatedly told Uisce \u00c9ireann representatives when they attend Cabinet subcommittee meetings that Uisce \u00c9ireann needs to get its house in order first. It must stop failures in its own wastewater treatment plants. Uisce \u00c9ireann above everybody else should not be polluting water through negligence, lack of attention or various incidents that have occurred in the past. It is conscious of that, to be fair, and it is working on it. As for Deputy Smith\u2019s points regarding small towns and villages and wastewater treatment, we are putting pressure on. Apart from the nature-based solutions, we need plug-in solutions as well, particularly for small builders, so that we can get housing into towns and villages across the country. That would make a difference to housing and to villages and towns that have all the services and networks to grow naturally and properly. That is something we are working on. I do not know whether it is the water quality or salaries that Deputy Lawless is interested in."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul Lawless They are linked."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach However, he said the group water scheme had been taken over recently. That suggests to me it is not Uisce \u00c9ireann's problem if there are outages emanating from that group water scheme. It might suggest that there were historic problems building up there - I do not know the specifics - but I do not think we can blame Uisce \u00c9ireann if it was only taken over recently. I do not think that would be fair. Deputy Conway-Walsh referred to a group water scheme that had been hacked in County Mayo and cybersecurity. We are very alive to this. That National Cyber Security Centre guides both public utilities and private companies. It provides guidance and advice. If anyone suffers an incident, he or she should immediately refer it to the Garda and the National Cyber Security Centre. We are building resilience in cybersecurity. It is very challenging and the Deputy is correct in saying that all utilities are vulnerable, particularly in an AI-enabled world. AI-enabled cyberattacks can be far more dangerous. We have to be very resilient in response to that. We have built up a very strong National Cyber Security Centre in a relatively short period of time and I have a lot of confidence in the leadership of that centre. In terms of raw sewage into Sandymount Strand, if we were to go back ten or 20 years, there was an extraordinary amount of raw sewage going into water all over the country. There have been substantial improvements, it has to be said, but until we stop it all everywhere, we will not be satisfied. That is the bottom line. I will discuss the Sandymount area and what is happening there with Uisce \u00c9ireann when we meet next. I will make the point that Deputy Hayes raised the issue. I make the same point to Deputy Collins. There was a lot more discharge of raw sewage into harbours and rivers ten, 15 and 20 years ago than there is today. That means we have to keep on working and providing treatment facilities in as many towns and villages as we possibly can. The Deputy and I both know that there can be many rows about location of treatment plants in villages and towns, which can often delay the provision of such plants for years. I am a great believer in trying to seize the moment when an investment is available, and sometimes towns and villages miss that moment by objecting to a particular plant in a particular location, believing it will smell or whatever. The challenge is the area then does not get the plant or investment. That is a real issue. Deputies Healy-Rae and Daly raised Ballyheigue. Uisce \u00c9ireann has told them that work is progressing and investigations are ongoing. Those are the facts. If that is what Uisce \u00c9ireann is telling the Deputies, that is what is happening. I will check with Uisce \u00c9ireann what the story is with Glenderry. It is probably not as simple as the Deputies say because if it were that simple, why would Uisce \u00c9ireann not do it? There must be problems and challenges to it, but I will pursue it with Uisce \u00c9ireann. The note I had last week or the week before was that it was a serious enough matter that would not lend itself to an easy solution. I will get an up-to-date position from Uisce \u00c9ireann and relay it to both Deputies later. Deputy McGuinness mentioned the water supply problems in towns and villages. He listed a number of areas across Waterford. I will discuss that with Uisce \u00c9ireann. There is a common refrain here. We have a capital programme of approximately \u20ac1.5 billion. The challenge is to balance that between the big, new projects and the smaller projects where upgrades are required or where extensions are required. What we are witnessing is a clash. We are trying to catch up historically but are also matching an unprecedented increase in population growth over the past 20 years and the growth of towns and villages across rural Ireland. People often talk about rural decline but what is symptomatic of the representations today is the growth of the population in rural towns, increased capacities and so on. Deputy O'Gorman may not be aware that we have already allocated substantial moneys from the shared island fund to the Northern Ireland Executive for the clean-up of Lough Neagh. That is matched by funding from Andrew Muir's department. That is my understanding. Off hand, I think we are talking about \u20ac20 million, if not more, from the shared island fund, recognising the wider catchment areas. These are our problems as well as theirs. It is also to help out, because it is a catastrophic situation that has proved difficult for the Executive to deal with. We have already allocated. The issue now is to get the work started and to use the funding that we have made available. I can get the Deputy the details of the scheme. Deputy Whitmore spoke about Uisce \u00c9ireann not doing its job, failures in certain plants and pollution as a result of outflow from the plants. I have highlighted the issue with Uisce \u00c9ireann. It believes that some of the issue has to do with the transition from a local authority system to a nationally organised system. Nonetheless, as far as I am concerned, this should be the number one priority of Uisce \u00c9ireann because it must set the standards for others to follow."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Cabinet Committees"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_20","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Cabinet Committees","counts":{"speechCount":90,"speakerCount":18},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_18","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_18","showAs":"Ceisteanna - Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_20","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louis O'Hara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Liam Quaide","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter 'Chap' Cleere","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-'Chap'-Cleere.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Peter-'Chap'-Cleere.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tony McCormack","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tony-McCormack.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Tony-McCormack.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James O'Connor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-O'Connor.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"James-O'Connor.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin Hayes","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_20.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I propose to take Questions Nos. 17 to 34, inclusive, together. The Cabinet committee on climate action, the environment and energy oversees the implementation of programme for Government commitments relating to the environment, climate action, energy and emergency planning. The programme for Government restates our determination that Ireland, together with our European Union partners, will play its full part in tackling climate change, protecting this and future generations. Change is under way across our economy and society to steer Ireland towards a low-carbon future. Reducing emissions is now at the heart of all our policies and sectoral plans. We are seeing real progress. However, projections from the EPA make clear that we have much more work to do. There are encouraging signs. Ireland's emissions have been falling for the last three years and we now have lower overall emissions than at any point in the past 35 years despite our population growing by 50% over that period. The climate action plan, an updated version of which will be published in the coming weeks, is guiding our efforts and sets out sectoral policies and targets that we are working towards. The Cabinet committee considers the wide range of issues that require action in Ireland's transition to a low-carbon, climate-resilient and sustainable future, a future in which we take full advantage of the renewable energy potential that we possess while ensuring that policies also contribute to energy affordability, energy security and competitiveness. The programme for Government committed to taking decisive action to provide warmer, more comfortable homes as part of our drive to support energy affordability, security and sustainability. The Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, launched a national residential retrofit plan for 2026, which will make home energy upgrades more affordable and accessible to many more homeowners. It provides for new and enhanced individual upgrades to support homeowners with their upgrade journeys, including new window and door grants. Increased grants and wider eligibility make it easier for homeowners to complete deep retrofits on a phased basis that suits their budgets. It also provides for increased grants for homeowners on qualifying welfare payments. There are also new supports for first-time buyers of existing houses, increased grant supports for approved housing bodies and local authorities, and support in the community for older people. By promoting retrofitting, renewable heating and solar energy in this way, we will make homes warmer and cheaper to heat. Last year, more than 58,000 homeowners benefited from energy upgrades under SEAI schemes. We will build on that this year, widening the net to upgrade even more homes in 2026 and making home energy upgrades more affordable and accessible to all. The number of applications to the SEAI so far in 2026 has doubled. Over 78,000 applications were processed between January and the end of July, which is up almost 120% on this time last year. Improving Ireland's resilience in the face of more severe and more frequent climate impacts is one of the issues regularly considered by the Cabinet committee. Learning from the experiences of recent severe weather events, the Government has strengthened preparation and resilience ahead of possible storms and floods this winter. Significant work has been carried out to improve flood risk monitoring, enhance national co-ordination and increase operational resilience across local authorities, utilities and key response agencies. All Government Departments and agencies have reviewed their severe weather readiness and response plans. They have taken tangible actions to ensure preparation for the coming season. Local authorities have been carrying out ongoing preventative maintenance of drains, culverts and gullies. The OPW and local authorities have made arrangements for the purchase, storage at five locations around the country and deployment of mobile pumps and temporary flood barriers. These will augment the equipment already held by city and county councils. This will ensure that the right equipment can be quickly moved to where it is required. Uisce \u00c9ireann has positioned 30 large generators at key sites and has 70 additional mobile generators supplementing an existing fleet of 150 generators. A further 80 generators are planned for purchase. Some 20 dedicated wastewater pumps are available to manage disruption caused by flooding. Local authorities have identified 572 locations that can operate as community support centres, with more than 100 already equipped with generator changeover capability and approximately 200 expected by the end of the year. Being positioned to react well and recover quickly from increasingly severe and unprecedented weather events will depend on how well we can anticipate and adapt to the impacts ahead. Ireland has an elaborate suite of resources to guide our work in this area. These include a national climate risk assessment, a national adaptation framework and a suite of sectoral adaptation plans. The Cabinet committee has been interrogating our collective efforts in this area and what more may be required to ensure we are adequately prepared for the significant changes to the climate that are under way. The Cabinet committee last met on 22 October. The next meeting of the Cabinet committee will be scheduled shortly."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Barry Heneghan My private wires Bill has been selected for debate on 17 December. This is one solution to three of the biggest national challenges we face. In housing, we need faster electricity connections to unlock badly needed homes. Imagine a single connection to our national grid after a developer has already put in 64 connections that are ready for people. On the cost of living, I am delighted to see that plug-in solar has been done but families and businesses should be able to share renewable-generated energy locally more easily. In healthcare, hospitals should have easier access to on-site or nearby renewable generation. Will the Taoiseach commit to working with me to progress this Bill to deliver real savings for Irish people, households, businesses and public services? It is in the programme for Government. It is the reason the Ceann Comhairle ruled me out of being a member of the Opposition. Ireland needs this. We need to do it as soon as possible."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn Cork County Council failed to pass its annual budget last night. It has two weeks to pass a budget or the council will be dissolved and a Government administrator will have to be appointed. That is not good for the council's climate objectives. It is also not good for the county of the current Taoiseach. This happened because the council is looking for an 8% increase in commercial rates. As the Taoiseach will know, small businesses are being hammered with the increased cost of doing business. Peter O'Donoghue, an Aont\u00fa councillor, has successfully tabled a motion seeking that central government address the shortfall in the council budget to prevent pressure being put on small businesses. Small businesses are at breaking point. Will the Taoiseach step up to the mark and help them?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach It is an ingenious move to table a motion."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail The Taoiseach mentioned the success of and demand for home retrofitting via the SEAI. In Kildare and nationally, there are entire housing estates where houses were built to the same standard and are losing energy and heat in the exact same areas. I ask that the Taoiseach liaise with the SEAI to look at a pilot scheme for retrofitting in housing estates to reduce the cost. This would essentially be like a group scheme. Local authorities should also be able to do group schemes for social housing. This would be a pilot identifying individual housing estates and trying to get more houses completed in this way."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louis O'Hara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Louis O'Hara Last week, I attended a public meeting in Gort regarding the proposal to construct a large biogas plant in the area. We know that renewable energy has an important role to play but this is simply the wrong development in the wrong location. Placing a heavy industrial anaerobic digestion facility right on the edge of Gort town, adjacent to homes, schools and sensitive ecological sites, is completely unacceptable to the local community. The community has had to put a significant amount of time and resources into responding to this proposal over several years and it is now back in the planning process again. When will the Government step up and ensure proper oversight of these developments? When will we see reform of our planning frameworks to guarantee that local communities are meaningfully consulted and respected rather than forced to fight unsuitable proposals on their doorstep?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa An EU directive prohibiting public financial incentives for new stand-alone oil and gas boilers is creating a huge number of issues for people who previously would have been able to avail of council grants. There is now no SEAI grant. I dealt with this as a Topical Issue last week. There is no possibility of a payment through an emergency needs payment."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach Is the Deputy saying there should be an SEAI grant for oil boilers?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa What I am saying is that, in a perfect world-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I just want to get clarity."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa In a perfect world, if people could get support from the warmer homes scheme without it taking 15 months, they could make sure they had heating in a very short period of time. However, we are talking about people whose boilers have gone and cannot be fixed and who cannot get a refurbished boiler. Supposedly, you can get these out there but I would ask anyone to try to find one. If they could, they would be able to avail of the council grants that people previously would have used. There is a huge number of people whose boilers have gone. There is no fixing them and they cannot find a refurbished one. In some cases, we are talking about people in their 70s and 80s who are on really small payments. The European directive has created an anomaly here. We need to find a solution. We all want to move to renewables and sustainable heat pumps but it is not always possible for people in severe cold."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Liam Quaide","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Liam Quaide There is welcome investment in Cork's commuter rail network with new stations, electrification and more frequent services planned, yet Youghal, one of east Cork's most important towns, remains excluded from these plans. Youghal residents and the residents of surrounding villages endure ever-worsening commuting misery every day. Restoring the Midleton-Youghal railway would reduce car dependency and emissions, ease congestion on the N25 and support sustainable development across east Cork. The Cork metropolitan area transport strategy is due for review, with completion targeted for mid-2027. Youghal falls outside the existing metropolitan boundary, however. Despite this, the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, recently identified this review as an opportunity to reconsider restoring the Youghal railway. Will the Taoiseach ask the Minister for Transport to engage with the National Transport Authority to ensure that restoring the Midleton-Youghal railway is fully examined as part of that review? This is a vital infrastructural link for east Cork."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul Murphy I will ask the Taoiseach about a scandal exposed on the news website, The Currency, today. It relates to what has happened with the windfall levy on energy companies. This was introduced at a European level. The European Commission said it should be used to help vulnerable households. Instead, in Ireland, it is being used to help Denis O'Brien, J.P. McManus, Dunnes Stores, Lidl, Aldi, SuperValu and the many other companies that have received tens of millions of euros in handouts from this EU-wide levy. All of the almost \u20ac22 million in levy proceeds handed out in this State has gone to businesses. Not a single penny has gone to struggling households. This is in the country with the most expensive household electricity prices in Europe, where 500,000 households are now in arrears on their energy bills. How can the Taoiseach stand over giving \u20ac200,000 to J.P. McManus to install solar panels at Adare Manor and \u20ac40,000 to Denis O'Brien to retrofit a castle? Why should we be paying for this?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Collins A lot has been made of climate targets, and yes, we must meet our climate targets, but one of the things we must do is look at solar. While the grant that was given out in the budget recently was a top-class grant, and everybody has to acknowledge that, there is a problem. People in local authority houses are not allowed to apply, even though they qualify, and it is the same for people in private housing associations. This could be a game-changer for the whole country. Those people have the qualifying payments, but they cannot apply because the local authorities will not allow them to put solar on the roof. We need to change that policy. The extra power that will come from that will be fed back to the grid and go back to the councils, which can then, in turn, stop the 7.5% increase that was put on rates for the people of County Cork yesterday, although it was rejected by the Independent Ireland councillors. The point I am trying to make is that there is an opportunity. The local authorities and people in private housing should be included in this top-class grant."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Danny Healy-Rae Every day since Bord na M\u00f3na was closed down, the cost of electricity has gone up. It has gone up for old people and the elderly. It has gone up for businesspeople. It has gone up for everyone. Even the people who spent a lot of money buying electric cars are complaining now. If they do not have their own charger, they pay more to replenish their car than they would if they were filling it with petrol to do the same number of miles. At the same time, the electricity companies are making a fortune. I have a question for the Taoiseach. Where is the energy regulator? Does the Taoiseach know him? Did the Taoiseach ever meet him? What is he doing? Is he asleep? Is he in bed? Did he ever get out of it? I am passing doors where people cannot turn on the electricity now at night, and that is a fact. So many people are in arrears, and they are in an awful way. I am asking the Taoiseach to do something about the regulator and ensure that the energy companies are not benefiting continuously on the backs of poor people."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Roderic O'Gorman I am asking once again where the 2026 climate action plan is. This week, the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, is travelling to COP31, where he is due to lead negotiations on behalf of the EU, something he is happy to issue a press release on, but the emperor is travelling without any clothes. Our national climate plans have yet to be updated this year, which puts us at significant risk of falling even further behind our climate targets. Will the Taoiseach confirm on which date the 2026 plan will be published? Will he also confirm if a separate 2027 plan will be published, as per the legislation?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter 'Chap' Cleere","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-'Chap'-Cleere.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Peter-'Chap'-Cleere.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peter 'Chap' Cleere It is November, and right across Carlow and Kilkenny, older people are turning up the heating. In many cases, they are still sitting in the cold because too much of that heat is going straight out through the roof and the walls. I acknowledge that the warmer homes scheme is one of the best things this Government has done, with fully funded upgrades for people on the fuel allowance and with \u20ac280 million put into it last year, 11 times what it was in 2020. That needs to be acknowledged on the floor of this House. However, the wait to get work done is brutal. The SEAI says it can take up to two years from the day someone applies to the day the work is finished. That is two winters. A pensioner in Borris or Skeoughvosteen, where I am from, cannot wait two winters. This cannot continue. When the committee next meets, will it set a clear target to get that wait to under a year to begin with, starting with older people, in particular those in rural Ireland in the coldest homes?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tony McCormack","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tony-McCormack.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Tony-McCormack.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Tony McCormack I welcome the Government\u2019s commitment to introducing private wires legislation, allowing businesses to connect directly to renewable electricity generators. This presents an enormous economic opportunity for Ireland, particularly for counties like my own constituency of Offaly. Offaly has a proud history of producing energy for the country, and today we are seeing substantial investment in wind and solar generation, but producing electricity is only part of the opportunity. We should be using that energy to attract manufacturing, new industries and major employers to the regions that are producing it. Private wires could help businesses to access renewable electricity directly, opening up opportunities for industrial development and addressing some of the challenges with grid connections. As we progress this legislation, can we ensure that IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland are actively involved in identifying these opportunities? We should be turning our energy resources into investment, employment and long-term economic growth."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh Homeowners affected by pyrite should not face further obstacles in relation to SEAI grants because of the arbitrary application dates for the pyrite remediation scheme when they originally applied. I acknowledge that the Minister for Climate, Energy and the Environment recently intervened in one case that I had in Mayo, but families should not have to fight individual battles to secure what they are entitled to. For the small number of homes that have fallen through the cracks, eligibility should be presumed and not contested. Will the Taoiseach ensure a fair and consistent nationwide approach so that no affected homeowners are left behind? I also want to ask what we are doing to secure redress for pyrite homes in the North that were built using defective concrete blocks sourced in the Twenty-six Counties. They were sourced in the Twenty-six Counties, so that is where the regulation fell down."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Whitmore I would ask the Taoiseach to read today's article in The Currency by Niall Sargent. It is a really good analysis. It clearly demonstrates where many of the Government\u2019s solar grants are going, and the companies they are going to. Some 15% of solar grants for businesses, worth about \u20ac5.5 million, have gone to very wealthy, large corporate entities. The J.P. McManus-owned Adare Manor received \u20ac200,000 in grants. The Denis O'Brien-owned Ballynahinch Castle received just over \u20ac40,000. Dunnes Stores received more than \u20ac530,000. Lidl Ireland received \u20ac195,000. The grants for energy efficiency and for solar need to be targeted at people and businesses that need it. I do not think anyone could claim that the likes of J.P. McManus and Denis O'Brien need grants from the Government to facilitate and upgrade their hotels. Will the Taoiseach make sure the money is going to the right people?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James O'Connor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-O'Connor.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"James-O'Connor.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James O'Connor I want to raise the matter of the main Midleton flood relief scheme. We know that the planning permission is due to be submitted alongside the senior counsel review that is ongoing by the local authority. I am once again reiterating the need for this to be completed. The people of Midleton and the wider east Cork area were badly affected by Storm Babet\u2019s flooding. They need to see the Government giving its full commitment to providing support and funding to deliver this scheme. It is all about delivery. Being from Cork, the Taoiseach knows well the damage this caused to Midleton and the wider east Cork area. I would very much appreciate it if he could comment on the support, the funding and the planning process to make sure that all is well and on time, following delays that have caused huge frustration for people in the east Cork area."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach In response to Deputy O\u2019Hara, and as a general comment overall, this Cabinet committee is on climate action, the environment and energy. It is interesting that, although not all, quite a number of the earlier presentations did not really focus on climate or renewables, if I am honest, but rather the opposite. I would generally say that we have a huge challenge in this country. If we think we are going to solve the energy problem by saying we cannot have this, that or the other, real problems are coming down the tracks. The reason we are in a crisis of fuel cost is because of an over-reliance on fossil fuels. This has happened twice in six years, with the outbreak of war, Russia invading Ukraine, Europe ending its dependency on Russian oil, the attack on Iran, the closure of the Strait of Hormuz and the Houthis impacting on the Red Sea routes. When are we going to collectively, as a Parliament, accept the reality that we have to move to renewables and alternative forms of energy generation? Far too often now, I think, because it is challenging electorally and politically, it is far too easy to avoid trying to communicate with people and explain to people why we need this particular plant or facility, as opposed to going along and not really pursuing renewables at the end of the day. I think that is a challenge for the country, and I would make that general point overall. In terms of the biogas facility, I do not know the specific location or the issues there. Deputy O'Hara is saying it is the wrong development in the wrong place, but there was a planning process there, and it has to go through the planning process. The Government cannot get involved in every single planning application in respect of a biogas facility, a wind farm or solar panels. The country cannot be run that way. We have local authorities. We have a planning system. There have to be proper guidelines and planning statements governing all of this. At the end of the day, it is something that has to be dealt with through the planning process. There should be public consultation. The earlier and better the consultation on these matters, the more effective it will be at getting issues properly resolved. I did not quite understand Deputy \u00d3 Murch\u00fa's question. I think he was suggesting that we would have grants for oil and gas burners."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa The grants existed before the council-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I know, but-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Remarks should be addressed through the Chair."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach -----the aim of the European directive is to end dependency on fossil fuels."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa I know that, but we are dealing with people who do not have time to wait-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I take the Deputy's point, but hydrotreated vegetable oil, HVO, is an option and we have to pursue that. Again, the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI, grants are for sustainable generation. It would be perverse in some respects if we were to use sustainability grants for fossil fuels."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa I am only saying there is no grant open to those affected. That is all I am saying."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I know. I am simply saying that we need to be honest about it too."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa I have no problem with that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach The issue involves an EU directive, so it is not easy to turn it all around, but we are looking at HVO as a potential alternative and the Minister has a boiler scrappage scheme. However, I do take the point that there are-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa It is for those people."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach -----certain people in rural areas, elderly people and so on who will not be going down that road. We understand that. Deputy Quaide raised the commuter rail network and Youghal. The challenge we have is having sufficient capital over the next decade to match the ambition that is already in the all-island rail review, including being able to complete the projects that have already been prioritised. The Cork commuter rail project is one. We do not have any issue with including Youghal in a future review, but some people think that if we include it in a review, it means it is going to get built sometime soon. We need a reality check in terms of what is possible financially from a capital point of view, because the capital outlays are going to be huge, particularly given construction inflation. We will see how MetroLink goes, and we will see how the Cork commuter rail project, which we have prioritised, goes. If we can get those projects completed efficiently, effectively and in a timely manner, it will open up other possibilities. I am conscious that we have had the all-island strategic rail review, which the then Minister, Eamon Ryan, concluded. That review contains a whole lot of projects and a hierarchy, and it states some of the projects will not even be looked at until 2050. We have to be realistic."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Liam Quaide","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Liam Quaide That is a Government decision, though."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach No, it is not a Government decision. This was a review by experts who said what we should prioritise and so on. I am simply saying that the enormousness of what is in the document has huge implications for capital allocation. There are many projects, like Youghal, that are not even in the hierarchy set out in the all-island rail review, which was undertaken North and South. There are other projects concerning rail in the west. People think we can do it all at once. We cannot. If something is not going to happen soon, we have to be realistic about it. We have to try to do what we can. However, I do get the point. I am probably old enough to say I was on the Cork\u2013Youghal rail line. People from our suburb and parish would go every summer to Youghal on day trips and have egg-and-tomato sandwiches and a pot of tea. It was a very lovely trip. That is where the working class of Cork went on their holidays. They used the train way back, and it is a tragedy that it got upended. I would have an interest in the project but I just want to introduce a degree of realism about how fast we can get things done. We need to be honest with people when we talk to them in that regard. On Deputy Murphy's point, I have not read The Currency today and I do not know whether he is twisting it a bit."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul Murphy I am not-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach This is an issue relating to climate. As far as I am concerned, we want as many people in as many walks of life as possible to make the transition to being energy efficient. I have not read the article and I do not know the context of what the Deputy is referring to. We have never said, and I have never heard anyone in the House say, that we should provide solar grants only below certain thresholds and means-test accordingly. Is our priority energy transformation or is it all just about income and means testing?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Whitmore If you are a multibillionaire, you can afford your own solar-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach No, I am not talking about-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Remarks should be addressed through the Chair."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach That is the cheap shot."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul Murphy That is what the reform is about."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach No. That is great for slogans and soundbites, but it does not butter any parsnips. It does not really, and that is the cop-out. It is a cheap old shot. I have not read the article but I will. However, we need to be careful. It is the same with electric vehicles, EVs. Should we not provide grants for EVs either because it is probably middle- and upper-middle-class people who buy them?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin Hayes","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Eoin Hayes For God's sake, J.P. McManus is not middle class."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I am not talking about him; I am talking about EVs. Does the Deputy want an honest debate? I said a similar situation arose with EVs, the argument being that if we targeted only those on low incomes, would we have had the same take-up of EVs? What is the priority? I would have thought the priority of a climate agenda was to take fossil fuels out of the equation and enable as many people as possible to do that. The more people who go solar, including big farmers who put panels on their rooftops or whatever, the better it is for the overall air quality. It is very good. It is better for emissions reduction. The Deputies need to make up their minds on whether they are about emissions reduction. Are they getting mixed up between their economic and sociological ideology and their climate ideologies?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin Hayes","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Eoin Hayes No grants for billionaires."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Whitmore Just transition is a policy of this Government."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Cheann Comhairle The Deputy should address her remarks through the Chair."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach Just transition relates to areas that had fossil fuel power stations that we got rid of."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Whitmore Just transition is about enabling others-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach We had to bring alternative economic-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Whitmore -----who cannot afford to transition. That is what it is."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Cheann Comhairle We are almost ten minutes over time. If Deputies encourage this kind of debate, we are not going to get to the end of it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn The Taoiseach missed out on his supporter here."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I apologise-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Cheann Comhairle If the Taoiseach would not mind concluding-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach -----but I believe a good constructive debate and challenging people-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Cheann Comhairle It is not for today."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I get tired of the soundbites."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Cheann Comhairle The Taoiseach should talk to the Chief Whip about the debate."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I will."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(Interruptions)."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I get tired of soundbites."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Can we just move on because the Taoiseach is out of time?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach Where am I? On Deputy Collins's point, I believe local authorities can apply for solar panels on their houses."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Collins The grant rolled out recently is not-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach Yes, but if there are tenants, the local authority should be applying. The local authority should run the scheme for solar. Did I pass over Deputy Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail Yes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn Also Deputy Barry Heneghan and me."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(Interruptions)."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach Deputy Danny Healy-Rae's statement that prices have gone up since Bord na M\u00f3na closed was amazing."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Danny Healy-Rae Every day."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach The energy regulator is a woman. The Deputy said \"he\" the whole way through. That is just for the record. I did meet the regulators. The Commission for Regulation of Utilities, CRU, is the regulator. We have established an energy task force to examine the setting of prices for energy. Connection to gas is a key issue and problem. On Deputy O'Gorman's points, the climate action plan was approved by the Cabinet today, but it has to go through an environmental assessment now. That will dictate the timeline, according to the Minister. The more important point is that the Minister is changing the way we are doing it. It was ridiculous that we had civil servants doing nothing else but writing action plans with huge detail in them. When they finished one, they started the next one. It was ridiculous. We had to change that. The Minister is changing it, stating the principles, getting the fundamentals right, being more pragmatic and getting things done. That is what he is doing."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul Murphy But the Government is not getting things done."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach Did Deputy Cleere refer to turning up the heating? No, that is my own note. It is very hot in here and I think the heating is too high."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa Yes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach We should cut it down to save energy and cool us all down a bit."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn Pressure."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach Reference was made to time being brutal. The Minister is suggesting, and I think he has already started, that the grants be paid directly to the contractors to bypass the administrative process. He is going to initiate that, if it has not been initiated already, to try to speed up grant applications and get people out to have the work done. Deputy McCormack referred to private wires. Deputy Heneghan was there at the beginning. How did I miss him?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Barry Heneghan And Deputy T\u00f3ib\u00edn."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn Yes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Barry Heneghan Put me ar dt\u00fas."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I started off on the wrong page. I am sorry. On private wires, the Deputy's Bill is in. The Minister is very shortly coming to the Cabinet with legislation on private wires as well. Presumably, it is a matter of dovetailing. We will get it done. The Deputy has been pushing this for a long time, to be fair, and we do see it as part of the solution. On Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn's point, it is a matter for Cork County Council. It has to sort out its estimates. I must say I was struck by the Deputy's statement that his councillor colleague was successful in tabling a motion. There was a day when we could all table motions, but a motion is not going to solve this. The council will have to solve it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn But the Government has cut back on central government funding for councils."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach On Deputy Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail's points, there are schemes such as those mentioned that are happening already. I believe that if housing estates come together and make an approach, the SEAI will do a deal. That has happened in Cork, including in Douglas and other places. It is a very good initiative and one that should occur. On Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh's point about pyrite, she wants a consistent approach across local authorities. The Northern Ireland Executive will have to look after the situation in the North. We have made an unprecedented intervention both in pyrite and in defective houses and apartments in the Republic. It will cost billions by the time we are finished it and we do not have endless funding. In response to Deputy Whitmore, I will have to read that article, but again is it climate or the redistribution of wealth we are on about? With regard to taxation-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Whitmore It is about solar panels and allowing people to-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach ----- we should go after people generally. We have the most progressive taxation system in Europe-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Whitmore J.P. McManus knows about that because he does not pay tax here."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach -----in terms of the highest earners paying taxes. Is it climate? Climate has to be priority. We have to get rid of fossil fuels, reduce them significantly and get solar in. I take issue with what Deputies Murphy and Whitmore said because right from the Ukraine war onwards, we have spent huge money on households through energy grants, the universal payments we made through the early part of the 2020s, fuel allowance increases and the whole range of payments we made. This idea that we have not looked after vulnerable households is a falsehood and should not be asserted. We have through substantial tax revenues and-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul Murphy People in energy poverty probably-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach Deputy O'Connor raised the issue of the Midleton flood relief scheme. I understand that it is a very complex one and we have to get it right. There has been a fair degree of public consultation. There is a lot of anxiety in Midleton and its hinterland, in particular, in the context of any upcoming storm. We saw that in the last couple of weeks. Interim measures are being taken, and the Minister of State, Deputy Boxer Moran, has been down on a number of occasions. The sooner we can get that developed the better, and we will be supporting that financially. It simply has to happen. I have rearranged things within the Cabinet subcommittees as well in terms of emergencies and adaptation. I have asked every Department to work more proactively in terms of adaptation and that our Department would lead the co-ordination of that into the future, because as a country, we can do far better on adaptation. It does not have the same urgency across the system as it should have, and that is why, in answer to the previous questions, we outlined a number of initiatives we have taken in terms of greater generator capacity. We have also taken grip of coastal erosion, which is another big issue facing the country, and we need to do that properly and effectively."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Cabinet Committees"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_21","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Social Welfare Bill 2026: Second Stage","counts":{"speechCount":41,"speakerCount":36},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_21","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Natasha Newsome Drennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin Hayes","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jen Cummins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Paul O'Shea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Murphy.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Michael-Murphy.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cormac Devlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cormac-Devlin.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cormac-Devlin.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Kenny.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Martin-Kenny.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eamon Scanlon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eamon-Scanlon.S.2002-09-12","memberCode":"Eamon-Scanlon.S.2002-09-12","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Carrigy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Clendennen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Erin McGreehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Nicholas Gogarty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Brennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Brian-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Cahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister for Social Protection (Deputy Dara Calleary) Tairgim: \u201cGo l\u00e9ifear an Bille an Dara hUair anois.\" I move: \"That the Bill be now read a Second Time.\" The total Department of Social Protection budget for 2027 is \u20ac30.9 billion, which is an increase of 7% on budget 2026, including over \u20ac1.15 billion in new and updated measures. Its level of funding will support approximately 1.6 million recipients of weekly social protection payments as well as recipients of other schemes, such as school meals and child benefit. The budget measures will enhance the adequacy of the overall social protection system, while also providing targeted support for pensioners, people with disabilities, carers, families at risk of child poverty and households at risk of energy poverty. Overall, the additional investment will continue to reinforce the strong social safety net that is provided by our welfare system. Budget 2027 will provide for a weekly \u20ac10 increase in the core weekly rates of payment, in line with inflation and with proportionate increases for those on a reduced payment rate and qualified adults. The State contributory pension will exceed \u20ac300 per week for the first time, increasing to \u20ac309.30 per week. In addition, the living alone allowance has been increased for the first time in five years and will now be paid at \u20ac25 per week. This will benefit almost 260,000 pensioners and disabled people living alone, bringing the total value of their payment to \u20ac1,300 per person per year. The package includes further increases to the child support payment, benefiting some 330,000 children, with a weekly increase of \u20ac6 for children of all ages. The payment is now \u20ac64 for children under the age of 12 and \u20ac84 for children aged 12 and over. Since 2020, the child support payment has increased by over 77% for children under 12 and by 110% for children over 12, making a real difference to the lives of 330,000 children. Further measures to tackle child poverty include a \u20ac30 increase in weekly income thresholds for the working family payment for all family sizes, worth up to \u20ac18 per week, which will assist low-income families, many of whom are lone-parent households. In addition, working lone parents will be assisted by an increase in the earnings disregard for those on receipt of the one-parent family payment or jobseeker's transitional payment. This will increase by \u20ac10 from \u20ac165 to \u20ac175 per week. For employers, the Bill provides for an increase in the threshold at which the lower 9.15% rate of employer PRSI applies, from \u20ac552 to \u20ac600 per week. This will ensure that employers with employees working full-time on the national minimum wage will continue to pay the lower rate when the minimum wage increases to \u20ac14.94 per hour on 1 January 2027. For employees with children, the Bill contains provisions to increase the rate of payment for maternity, paternity, adoptive and parents benefit by \u20ac10 per week to \u20ac309 per week. These payments are an important part of a broader suite of policies that seek to support the welfare of families and children. The Social Welfare Bill also includes a range of amendments designed to support rural communities, including an increase in the income disregard for agri-environmental schemes in respect of farm assist and the State non-contributory pension from \u20ac5,000 to \u20ac7,500 per year. These schemes have an environmental focus and support the Government's climate change agenda. Increasing the disregard that applies to income from these schemes will assist farmers who participate in them while also providing an incentive for participation. An increase in the disregard for income from seaweed harvesting, from \u20ac1,270 per year to \u20ac2,500 per year, is the first increase in the value of disregard since it was first introduced in 1994. The weekly payment to people living on a specified island will increase by \u20ac5. From January, the weekly rate payable will be \u20ac25. This payment is made to people living on certain offshore islands to help offset the additional costs associated with island residence, including transport, access to services and the higher cost of goods and essential services. While D\u00e1il Standing Orders provide that pre-legislative scrutiny is not required for a social welfare Bill that gives effect to budget measures, my officials have hosted a briefing for Opposition spokespersons to assist with any questions on the provisions in the Bill. I hope that was of assistance, and my office remains open for any further questions between now and the initiation of the Bill. I bring to the attention of Deputies that I intend to introduce an amendment to the Bill on Committee Stage to establish the fish assist scheme on a statutory footing on the same basis as farm assist. I announced this measure on budget day. It has not been included in the published Bill because of technical considerations that arose during the drafting process. Drafting on this measure is continuing through the engagement of my officials with the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel. In tandem with this work, my officials are also working with the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel to draft the budget 2027 provision to extend the payment period of a deceased person's State pension. The payment will be extended from six weeks to ten weeks, with an additional four weeks paid at 50% of the rate previously payable. I intend to introduce an amendment to the Bill on Committee Stage to provide for this measure too. There are a range of measures announced by the Government on budget day which do not require primary legislation in this social welfare Bill. These will be provided through regulations, and I wish to touch on some of those measures now. Budget 2027 delivers on a programme for Government commitment to introduce an annual cost-of-disability payment. The package includes the first ever permanent cost-of-disability payment. It will start with a lump sum payment of \u20ac500 in 2027 for people receiving a long-term disability payment. Respecting the feedback from a very detailed consultative process, we are also commencing a co-design process with disabled people and their representatives on how the payment should be structured and delivered in subsequent years. This work has commenced and will intensify in the new year. The budget provides further improvements in measures designed to support disabled people to access employment. Building on last year\u2019s improvements to the wage subsidy scheme, this year\u2019s budget includes a reduction in the hours worked threshold required to access the wage subsidy scheme, from 15 hours per week to eight hours per week. There will be an increase of \u20ac15,000 in the grant paid to fund employment by employers of an employment assistance officer. Eligibility for the scheme is also being extended to those moving to partial capacity benefit from illness benefit. Further measures aimed at encouraging disabled people to take up employment include improvements to the work and access scheme, with an increase to the allocation of hours under ongoing communication support or lrish Sign Language support from 24 to 48 hours per year, and an increase in the number of induction support hours from 12 to 18 hours. These build on a \u20ac10 increase in the earnings disregard for disability allowance and blind pension recipients from \u20ac165 to \u20ac175 per week. This year\u2019s budget continues to progress the ambitious goal set out in the programme for Government to abolish the means test for carers over the life of this Government. To this end, further increases in the carer\u2019s allowance weekly income disregard have been secured, with an increase of \u20ac150 to \u20ac1,150 for a single person and an increase of \u20ac300 to \u20ac2,300 for a couple. Additionally, budget 2027 provides for increases in the earnings limit for the corresponding social insurance-based carer's benefit payment from \u20ac1,000 to \u20ac1,150 to maintain the current alignment between the schemes. This means that within the Government's first two budgets, we have already increased the carer\u2019s allowance disregard for singles and couples by 84%. As a result, a couple on over \u20ac126,000 will now be able to get a full payment without being in any way affected by the means test. In fact, they will be able to earn over \u20ac155,000 and still receive a partial payment. The budget also provides supports to help households with the cost of energy bills. The fuel allowance will increase by \u20ac5 to \u20ac43 per week from January 2027 for some 460,000 fuel allowance recipients. In addition, there will be an improvement in the fuel allowance means test for single pensioners. From January 2027, the income limit for a single person aged 66 or over was half that of a couple; this will increase to 60%. As a consequence of this measure, the allowable means of a single person aged 66 or over will increase from \u20ac534 to \u20ac640.80, thereby allowing more older people to qualify for the fuel allowance. Programmes such as the community employment scheme, T\u00fas and the rural social scheme are hugely important to individuals and communities. Not only do these schemes give people a direction forward and a sense of purpose, they assist and sustain communities. Without these schemes, vital supports such as meals on wheels, Tidy Towns, enhancement schemes and many others would not exist. In budget 2027, I have been able to secure an increase to the additional payment or top-up offered to people on welfare who participate in a rural social scheme, community employment or T\u00fas scheme to \u20ac35 for 19.5 hours per week. This measure will provide a greater incentive to participate in employment schemes and will benefit some 27,500 participants. In addition, we have secured a reduction of the requalification period on T\u00fas from three years to two years. This will enable those who have been unsuccessful in gaining employment to re-engage with T\u00fas after two years. In turn, this will support a participant's pathway back to employment while also helping to sustain the delivery of essential services. The Department provides a range of income supports to jobseekers. These payments are conditional on the recipient being available for, capable of and genuinely seeking work. This reflects the concept of rights and responsibilities, whereby those who are unemployed have the right to an income support from the State and a right to be supported in their efforts to secure employment, while also having a responsibility to seek employment and to engage with the employment services offered by the State. The Bill provides for a \u20ac10 increase in the reduction in payment rates for jobseekers not engaging with the mandatory activation process from \u20ac90 per week to \u20ac100 per week in the personal rate of payment. I highlight the Department is currently finalising the successor pathways to work strategy, which is due for publication in the coming weeks. Pathways to Work 2026-2030 will strengthen efforts to support those who are long-term unemployed and face barriers to enter the labour market. Ongoing engagement across Government has informed the commitments set out in the strategy and will help ensure a co-ordinated response to the diverse challenges faced by jobseekers. This joined-up approach is central to supporting labour market participation and enabling more people to secure and sustain employment. Between July and October last year, an extensive public consultation process was undertaken. Approximately 430 submissions were received, with an almost 50:50 ratio on submissions from individuals and organisations. The time taken to provide for a comprehensive consultation and engagement process will ensure that the successor pathways to work strategy is evidence-based and responsive to the needs of jobseekers, employers and the wider economy. A reduced rate is the final step in the process to encourage a jobseeker to avail of the employment supports on offer. Once a jobseeker resumes engagement, the reduced rate is lifted immediately. Whether a reduced rate applies and the duration of its application is within the control of the claimant and based on their engagement with activation services. This week, the number of people who have been on the live register for a year or more is at its lowest level in two years at approximately 52,300, of which approximately 46,400 will receive a payment. It is important to note the live register is not a stock; it is a flow. People are moving in and out of employment every week or progressing to training, education and employment placements. Some 58,800 people either entered or exited the long-term live register over the past 12 months. I do not believe that being on the dole is a way of life and I do not believe that it is one of the biggest issues facing us. It is my Department\u2019s role to support people to break out of unemployment and to provide the supports needed for each individual person in their journey because each individual has a different journey which will require different supports. Before I provide an outline of the Bill, I would also like to confirm that the Christmas bonus will be paid in the week commencing 1 December, on the same basis as last year, to some 1.4 million recipients of long-term social welfare payments. I will now give an overview of the Social Welfare Bill section by section. Section 1 is the Short Title and construction, section 2 provides for definitions of the relevant Acts and section 3 provides for the increase in the threshold at which the rate of the employer social insurance contribution of 9.15% applies in respect of employee gross wages from \u20ac552 per week to \u20ac600 per week. This measure will cost approximately \u20ac67.1 million in a full year and impact some 127,000 employments. This will save employers some \u20ac682 annually on employer PRSI for each of their employees working full time on the minimum wage. Sections 4, 5, 6 and 7 provide for a \u20ac10 weekly increase in the rates of maternity benefit, adoptive benefit, paternity benefit and parent's benefit respectively, from \u20ac299 to \u20ac309, in January 2027. Section 8 gives effect to the increases in the graduated rates of jobseeker's benefit and jobseeker\u2019s benefit for the self-employed. Where average weekly earnings in the governing contribution year are \u20ac300 per week or more, the full personal rate is payable. Where average weekly earnings are less than \u20ac300, the rate payable is determined by reference to a graduated earnings band. This section provides for pro rata increases in the graduated rates. Section 9 provides for a \u20ac10 increase, from \u20ac90 per week to \u20ac100 per week, in the reduction in the personal rate of payment for jobseekers who do not engage with the mandatory activation process. Section 10 provides for a \u20ac30 increase in the weekly income thresholds of the working family payment for all family sizes. Section 11 and Schedule 1 provide for the increase of \u20ac10 in the rates of social insurance benefits for the primary recipient. Also included are the proportionate increases for qualified adults and qualified children, and improvements in the living alone increase and the increase for living on a specified island. Section 12 provides for improvements to the means test for certain schemes. They include an increase in the amount of income from agri-environmental schemes that is disregarded in the means assessments for both farm assist and the non-contributory State pension. Section 12 also includes an increase in the amount of income from seaweed harvesting that is disregarded in the means assessment for jobseeker's allowance and farm assist. It also includes a \u20ac10 increase, from \u20ac165 to \u20ac175 per week, in the employment earnings disregard for the one-parent family payment. This comes into effect from July 2027. Section 13 and Schedule 2 provide for the rate increases in means-tested social assistance payments. I have the honour of being a Minister in the Department of Social Protection, with more than 7,000 colleagues across the country who every day assist people facing challenges and assist people in their daily and weekly living. I thank each and every one of them for their commitment to the people they serve and to the country. It is an honour to serve as a Minister in a Department that is responsive and available to people in times of challenge, and that also provides pathways of opportunity to those seeking them. Molaim an Bille don Teach."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Louise O'Reilly I join the Minister in commending the people who work in his Department and the work they do. We all deal with people in our constituency offices who have to engage with the Department of Social Protection and it is good that there are people there working hard. However, their job is to implement Government policy and that is where my kind words will end. We have all seen the budget and had a good look at it, and commentators and experts with far more to say on this issue than I have given their verdict. The Parliamentary Budget Office, PBO, has said that virtually everyone, particularly workers, will be worse off under the Minister's budget. Months ago, the ESRI warned that the Minister is very far from reaching his 3% child poverty target. There are other experts in this field. They have also advised the Minister on ways he might meet the target. They have suggested a second tier of child benefit, for example, and a host of other ways to structure cash transfers to reduce child poverty in a real and meaningful way for good. They also advised him on the long-term costs of allowing so many hundreds of thousands of children to continue to grow up in poverty, including the psychological damage, the public health impact and the financial costs this will incur in the long term. There is a wealth of evidence. The Minister knows what needs to be done. He knows the impact of not doing it, yet we see children forgotten by this budget and this Bill. It is clear that the budget went against the advice given to the Government. The ESRI has said that budget 2027, and these are not my words, will not reduce the number of children in poverty. If we can stand in this House and all agree, as we do, that one child living in poverty is too many, and certainly that the number of children growing up in poverty in this State is too many, surely the Minister would heed the ESRI when it tells him that his budget and this Bill will not reduce the number of children in poverty. If that is his ambition, he should change tack. If what he is doing is not working, I encourage him to try something else. We know this is not a mistake. This is not something that is broken. It is designed. This is how the budget and the Bill are designed. At the Cabinet table, the Minister would have negotiated what is in this Bill. He is the one who accepted from the Minister for Finance and the Minister for public expenditure increases in the core rates of welfare payments that will not keep pace with inflation. He is the one Minister who put his hand up to an effective cut in the fuel allowance, because there will be \u20ac12 less for people on the fuel allowance in 2027 than there was in 2026. I understand the Government has tried to do the same with university fees but the Minister will not convince me that getting \u20ac12 less in 2027 somehow means the fuel allowance has been increased because it has not. For people who depend on this money, writing in the Minister's speech that they will be getting more when they do not physically have more money will not help them to pay their bills or heat their homes. The choices that were made were not made because of a lack of money, manpower or advice. They were made simply to allow the Government to line the pockets of vulture funds, large landlords and data centre owners. Minister after Minister appears not to want to own this choice, but you can see it. I ask myself what the point was of setting up the child poverty unit, holding the consultation on expanding child benefit and hosting the child poverty summit. It seems pointless going through all these gestures if none of it is reflected in the pounds, shillings and pence that will be transferred to children in poverty. They are not in this legislation. Sinn F\u00e9in had proposed real measures to tackle child poverty, including a targeted second tier of child benefit, which would make a real and meaningful difference in the lives of children who need it. Some 17.4% of children are living below the poverty line. When housing is added in, a debate which we have had many times since housing cannot but be added in, that figure goes up to 22.7%, which tells me that we are going in the wrong direction and that the Government is bringing us in the wrong direction. We know what the ESRI has said but the Minister chose to ignore it. I cannot imagine that there is a person sitting at the Cabinet table who is happy and content with any level of child poverty yet we see writ large in the Minister's budget very little to help children in poverty and very little that will make a real, meaningful and lasting difference. I try to imagine who the Minister is thinking about when he is framing the budget. On the budget as a whole, we know who the big winners were. They were vulture funds. Those lads win every time. The joke people have is, \"Perhaps I will change my name to Mrs. Data Centre and then I might get some attention from the Government.\" Those are very real. People who are in crisis and in poverty are the ones who depend on social welfare. They are the ones who need somebody in their corner because they live on a fixed income. Often that is because they are caring for a loved one or cannot access full employment. There are many reasons. I was surprised and happy to hear the Minister's words distancing himself from the remarks made by the T\u00e1naiste about social welfare being a lifestyle choice. It is not unusual to hear the leader of the Fine Gael party or indeed members of the Government punch down. I thought it was particularly pathetic at the weekend to hear the T\u00e1naiste target a group. There are many reasons for long-term unemployment and the Minister knows them too. They are complicated. They should not be reduced to a single pathetic soundbite just to get a cheer, a guffaw and a bit of whooping and hollering from the base. What do they call it? Is it red meat for the base? It is a vile phrase and it was a vile sentiment that was expressed at the Fine Gael conference. It had the effect of distracting from the other 26 minutes and 20 seconds, or whatever it was, of the address the leader of Fine Gael gave to his party. Punching down is disgusting. Working with people who are long-term unemployed is important but it is not lost on me and others that the job clubs are gone. Nobody funded them and they closed. They were a vital service that ensured that people who were long-term unemployed could find a way back to employment, but they are gone. There is profound disappointment with disability because the Minister promised much in the run-in to this budget on a cost-of-disability payment. It might interest him to know that persons who are disabled do not stop being disabled when they start working yet they are not eligible for any of these payments. It could be argued that those who are working face a new set of unavoidable costs, yet we do not see those people accounted for in this Bill. Equally, the Government heard from disability advocates at the summit it held that they want co-design. This was not co-designed. It amounts to \u20ac10 per week, but it was not co-designed. They want a co-designed payment that takes care of them. They need that payment now, rather than this idea of live horse and you will get grass and that if they hang on and wait, they will get it. I am sure the Government is not so cynical as to wait until just before an election to do this, although we have seen that before. I sincerely hope we do not see it again. People with disabilities deserve more respect from the Government. Disability organisations and individual people who are experienced in this have made themselves available to work with the Government on co-design. They have offered their services and insight. They are living every day with the reality of the spiralling cost of disability. The Government took the energy supports from them, and now we see that many of them are going to be excluded from the once-off payment. Of course, all of this money will be gratefully received. I am not suggesting otherwise. However, they were clear about the need for a payment that recognises the ongoing daily and weekly cost associated with disability. A once-off payment is not going to cut it. In our alternative budget, we in Sinn F\u00e9in proposed a proper, tiered payment. We carried out extensive consultation with persons with disabilities and their organisations. A lot could have been done in this regard. If only people with disabilities were vulture funds or data centres, perhaps they might have featured a little more predominantly in the budget. They deserve better. They deserve more than platitudes and vague promises. They deserve to be listened to and supported because, ultimately, that is the job of social welfare and social protection. It is a threshold of decency, and that threshold must be upheld. I am afraid, with the budget and with this legislation, the Government has fallen far short of doing that. I look forward to engaging with the Minister and his officials on the Bill. We will be tabling amendments. I look forward to that debate."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire First, I echo the comments of both the Minister and my colleague Deputy O\u2019Reilly with regard to the staff in the Department of Social Protection. They offer a lot of support to our offices and to every other office up and down the country. To be honest, my experience of them is that they are always looking to help. They are looking to try to see how they can make the system work for people. Ultimately, however, as my colleague said, the design of the system is up to the Minister. I will raise an issue about which I have been talking for a number of years. In the first instance, however, I wish to draw back a second and refer to the T\u00e1naiste\u2019s comments at the weekend. I welcome the Minister\u2019s qualified clarification or whatever in this regard. It is not controversial to say that if someone is capable and in a position to work, he or she should go and work. However, we all know the number of people who are long-term unemployed in this State is vanishingly small. Even within that cohort, the vast majority of those people want to work. It was the actions of Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael Governments that led to the closure of job clubs and other similar supports. I want to talk to about a category of people who are working and often forgotten about. In the Minister\u2019s speech, he mentioned the threshold for the earnings disregard for the one-parent family payment or the jobseeker\u2019s transitional payment. One of the cruellest and, as far as I am aware, sharpest cliff edges in our system is for working, single-parent households. This is often forgotten. To be honest, one of the most appalling and cynical acts of the recession was former T\u00e1naiste Joan Burton\u2019s attack on one-parent families. That was absolutely appalling. This issue has still not been resolved. The threshold for one-parent families has increased, and that is, of course, welcome. However, if a mother of one who is a single parent works in a shop, she will be removed from the one-parent family payment and moved to the jobseeker\u2019s transitional payment when the child turns eight. She will lose the working family payment. I will repeat that. If she is working some 22 or 23 hours on minimum wage, she could be down as much \u20ac140 or \u20ac150 per week. That is per week, not per month. This is one of the most dramatic cliff edges in our social welfare system and it affects a category of people who are working, precisely what the Minister and the T\u00e1naiste say they want. It is appalling and needs to be addressed. I welcome increases in the child support payments and so on but, ultimately, we still have not rectified the profound wrong that was done to one-parent families during the course of the recession. During the most recent general election campaign, Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael jumped on the need to abolish the carer\u2019s means test almost at the last minute. I do not know whether the Government is going to achieve that at the current rate. It is in everyone\u2019s interest to do so. It is only right. First and foremost, those people who are caring are not doing it for money; they are doing it out of love and a sense of responsibility and to care for their loved ones. If we want to sustain and support those people and ensure that family support for people at home is an integral part of the system we have, then we need to reward, incentivise and support them. The carer\u2019s means test has to be abolished. We need to get there. At the current rate, the Government is not going to achieve that. On the issue of disabilities, it seems that successive Governments, particularly since former Minister Heather Humphreys\u2019 ill-fated White Paper or Green Paper, whichever colour it was, have walked away from this issue. I appreciate it is complicated, but we have to get it right. The cost of disability varies for an awful lot of people. I will make a final point about social welfare generally. I echo what Deputy O\u2019Reilly said regarding the need to invest in child benefit. Sometimes, the parties on the opposite side of the House are constantly trying to look at qualified and means-tested payments and so on and claiming a certain cohort of people do not need assistance. If they believe people on higher incomes do not need that assistance, then ensure that they pay their fair taxes. If we do not have a social welfare system that assists everyone but, rather, is only for the poor, then we will have a poorer social welfare system. Everyone should be able to pay in and everyone should be able to draw out at their time of need. That is a principle that is too often forgotten about."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Natasha Newsome Drennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan I welcome the opportunity to speak on social welfare and the current realities facing so many people across the State. The Minister\u2019s track record of achievement since the formation of the Government is appalling. There has been a 15% rise in the number of older people living in poverty. That amounts to more than 120,000 people. This is not just a number; it is 120,000 people who contributed to Irish society and put their trust in the State to be there for them when they got to their older age. Is this the legacy the Minister wants as the Minister for Social Protection? It is often noted that the success of a nation is measured by how we treat older people, the vulnerable and the sick. On all three fronts, the Government is failing. The \u20ac10 increase to the old age pension has simply been wiped out by rising household bills, especially for home heating oil, which many of our pensioners are heavily reliant on. Living alone as a pensioner is not a choice; it is the reality of having lost a partner. Household bills do not simply half when a person loses a husband or wife; they remain the same. The increase of \u20ac3 to the living allowance is an insult. It ensures widowed and bereaved pensioners are most at risk of poverty. For nearly 20 years before I was elected, I worked with Corlann, formerly the Brothers of Charity Services Ireland, in Ferrybank, providing care for adults living with disabilities. These are amazing people who live their lives at risk and are heavily reliant on having family in a position to support them throughout their lives. The CSO data for people with disabilities living in poverty is shocking. It is even bleaker than the figures for pensioners. Nearly 40% are living in poverty, and even with so many in poverty the Government still decided in budget 2026 to take \u20ac1,400 away from them. These are some of Ireland\u2019s most vulnerable, at-risk people and they are the ones the Government picked on, while giving tax breaks and sweetheart deals to the big multinationals. The measures announced in the budget are simply not sufficient. There are so many challenges and struggles facing Ireland. The Minister\u2019s colleague in government, Simon Harris, in his keynote address at the weekend, took aim at long-term unemployment, a group of approximately 11,000 people nationally. There are more people homeless in Ireland than in long-term unemployment, as well as more people classed as working poor. Under this Fianna F\u00e1il-Fine Gael Government, these numbers have increased on all fronts. While the Government claims success in many areas, it leaves scores of groups behind. As the saying goes, a rising tide lifts all boats. However, that is no good if one is not in the boat and is struggling away while barely having a life jacket on. The reality is that people want to work and contribute. They do not want to live with that level of alienation. The State should work with people to create the material conditions required to prevent this alienation and ensure that every person has the opportunity to contribute positively in a manner big or small to Irish society. While the Government might like the look and talk of the stick over the carrot approach, it is wrong and reactionary. The Minister is looking to put in place harsher penalties for the long-term unemployed but what is he doing to tackle those engaged in antisocial behaviour and intimidation who are terrorising communities the Government has clearly forgotten about? This is not a Dublin issue; it is across the State. At the weekend, there were shots fired in a housing estate in County Kilkenny, all connected to a feud in the estate. These people are engaging in criminal activity. Some have been convicted of intimidation but continue to live in social housing. Where is the accountability there? Why is the Department not ensuring that those who breach their social housing contracts are not held to account before communities are left in ruins?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin Hayes","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Eoin Hayes There is a lot of attention on what happens in this Chamber on budget day. It has been a little over a month since the Minister for Finance and the Minister for public expenditure stood here and delivered their speeches, telling Members of this House and the country what they would do with the public finances - how they would sustain the economy, fund vital public services, and support workers and vulnerable groups like carers, disabled people, pensioners, and children living in poverty. There may not be as much attention in the Chamber this afternoon but it is no less important. Indeed, what the Minister is asking us to do with this Bill is to give effect to the announcements made on that day, and to the implications of those announcements, which have become apparent in the interim. As I said in my response the day the budget was announced, while there are many things to be welcomed in this Bill, what the measures in it represent is a further degradation of the social contract in this country and a failure to envision a more just and equitable future for its citizens. While the measures in this Bill ostensibly contain increases to various schemes in the social protection system, few of them recover the support people received prior to recent cuts. Many of them fail to match inflation, and all represent a slippage in the floor through which we will not allow people to fall. For some, the economy is doing very well. However, for too many, austerity still persists. The Minister will say that individual payments have increased year on year but they do not keep up with inflation. When we analyse the social protection system as a whole, and what it is doing to support people, how it interacts with our economy is too often exclusionary, particularly for women and disabled people. Too often, it is becoming less effective, not more. When we look at the child poverty figures, there are 260,000 children living below the poverty line when we take housing into account, according to the ESRI. Let us look at the disability employment gap. With only 32.6% of disabled people in employment, we are one of the worst performers against the European average of 51.3%. When we look at the lived experience of carers across the country, so many are struggling to keep their homes warm as they save the State billions of euro. This country is a wealthy one but the great failure of this Government and previous Governments is not to leverage that wealth into a more robust system of social protection and redistribution to lift people out of poverty. Increasingly, this State is failing to support those most in need. Beyond the most wealthy households in this country, it is true to say that everyone is struggling in some way with the cost-of-living crisis. It is consistently the most vulnerable groups who face the steepest costs, and who bear the punishment of a social protection system that is failing to keep up with inflation. Inequality is becoming increasingly entrenched in this country, and a social protection system without adequate supports is a key point of failure in the fight to tackle it. Let me now look at some of the specific measures in this Bill. There is a provision to increase the disability allowance by \u20ac10 per week. For starters, that will not keep up with the cost of inflation, particularly with the cost of disability. While I welcome that disabled people, after decades of campaigning, will finally have access to a cost-of-disability payment, it is essential that we remember this comes after disabled people had their incomes cut by \u20ac1,400 last year. The \u20ac500 payment proposed barely covers the loss of income the Government imposed on disabled people in 2026. It simply represents a rehash of the one-off payment it removed from them last year. We in the Social Democrats had a bolder plan to really improve the lot of disabled people by offering a substantial support with an introductory rate for the cost-of-disability payment at \u20ac40 per week. That would have amounted to four times the level of support offered by the Government\u2019s measly one-off payment, and it would have come with an additional \u20ac15 per week for those on disability allowance, meaning a real increase in incomes beyond the level of inflation. I also note that the cost-of-disability payment is not in this Bill, as the Minister said. Can the Minister then assure us that the payment will be established on a statutory basis, or at least on a permanent basis, so that disabled people need not fear another rug pull from this Government like they experienced last year? Comparing the provisions for disabled people included in our alternative budget with what the Minister is trying to do in this Bill would leave no one in any doubt as to who is willing to put their money where their mouth is and support disabled people in this country, who for too long have had their needs dismissed and their advocacy ignored. For older people, the measures in this Bill have been bitterly disappointing. Since budget day, we have heard from so many people who were shocked, many of them truly offended, actually, by the \u20ac3 increase to the living-alone allowance. What is \u20ac3 a week going to do for someone facing skyrocketing energy prices as we head into another winter? A stunning 30% of older people living alone are in poverty, according to the CSO. There are too many stories from those who struggled to remain warm last winter, of turning off heaters, skipping meals, and doing whatever they could not to shiver in their beds. Some \u20ac3 a week is not going to cut it for those people, particularly when the fuel allowance next year will be cut by four weeks after the temporary extension this year, meaning a net cut for recipients year on year. There is one very notable absence from this Bill which is the clause which abolishes the means-test for carers. I would really like to know when the Government plans to do that. It has now gone three full calendar years since the general election without meeting a commitment it campaigned on. This was a key measure in the programme for Government and not only has it not abolished it but it is not even making progress on it this year. The increase to the income limits and the means test for the carer\u2019s allowance in this Bill barely keep up with inflation, never mind working towards reducing it to zero. The Minister is running out of time to make progress on this key promise he made to the people who are saving his Government billions of euro through the work they carry out as carers, and it is not just on the carers' allowance. As I have raised with the Minister many times, the issue of income disregards and eligibility thresholds is problematic across a number of payments in social protection. Across the board, they have not kept up with inflation, or with the increases to the minimum wage. Meaning, people are being pushed out of eligibility, particularly for vital child support interventions like the one-parent family payment. I also want to raise the specific issue of kinship care. Our alternative budget set aside a substantial amount of money to raise the guardians' payment by \u20ac70 per week as a first step to align the payment with the level of support granted to foster carers. The work that kinship carers do in taking on care responsibilities for family members in what are very difficult circumstances, often dealing with the challenge of raising grandchildren on their own, is heroic work. The current scheme does not recognise that work or provide them with the support they deserve. Kinship carers deserve to be supported and celebrated rather than left behind by a system which is unfair. I call on the Minister to include kinship carers in the budget negotiations next year so we can pass a 2028 version of this Bill that actually does that. The Bill contains a clause to increase penalties related to jobseeker's payments. I am sure the Minister will agree with me, even if the Minister for Finance does not, that the social protection system is one of the shining lights of the Irish State. It supports us in our moments of most acute need. When it works, it acts to fight injustice and alleviate hardship. As workers, we contribute to it not only in the hope that support will be there if we ever need it but also so we may live in a more kind and just society. I was glad to see the Minister's comments on the 27,000 longer term unemployed in activation in T\u00fas, CE and RSS. The comments in the past week from the T\u00e1naiste and leader of Fine Gael on how this system of social protection is something to be devalued and those supported by it are fair game for denigration and scapegoating were deeply disappointing. I hope the Minister will condemn those comments because they were beneath contempt. Indeed, they were beneath the dignity of anyone who hopes to hold the office of Taoiseach. I would hope anyone who hopes to lead our country would be wise enough to respect all its citizens rather than make them a subject of disdain. I welcome the Minister's comments today that he does not share that disdain."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jen Cummins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jen Cummins It is welcome that there will be increases in welfare payments, but with the cost of living I am concerned the \u20ac10 here and there will just be eaten up. I will give a few examples. I am contacted regularly, as I am sure most TDs are, by phone, by email or in clinics by people who are really struggling. I will outline some increases in the cost of living. The increase in the price of groceries is 23.6% since 2020. If you want to go to the dentist, if you get certain payments and are on a medical card, you are entitled to some free services, but people on maternity leave, for example, may not be entitled to that. The check-up is between \u20ac60 and \u20ac80 and fillings are \u20ac100 to \u20ac150. Root canal is horrific and so is the cost: \u20ac500 to \u20ac800. If anyone wanting to go to the doctor does not have a medical card, it is about \u20ac60 to \u20ac80 for an appointment. At the moment, doctors are under massive pressure. Even getting an appointment with one involves at least two weeks' wait. We will look at rent. In my constituency, Dublin South-Central, there are apartments and houses at \u20ac2,000, \u20ac2,500 and \u20ac3,000. These are phenomenal amounts of money. Mortgages are set to increase due to the increases in rates from the ECB. All these things lead to huge increases in costs and it is putting people under pressure. I am education spokesperson. I think everybody knows that as I say it every time. I am delighted to be education spokesperson but the costs of education are phenomenal. Last year the Department was saying it would support 233,000 children through the back-to-school clothing and footwear allowance. That is a huge number of young people and families who need that support. They should not need it. Things should not be so dire for 233,000 children that they are dependent on a payment of \u20ac160 or \u20ac285 to help them with uniforms, bags, clothes or shoes. It is a perverse and odd way to look at the things that we are celebrating supporting these families. The reality is we should not be celebrating it; we should be ashamed of ourselves that that number of families need that support. The average cost of primary school for a child is \u20ac1,794 per year. That is a primary school lifetime cost of about \u20ac14,000. For secondary school, the lifetime cost is about \u20ac17,500. That is when you do not pay school fees. We say education in this country is free but actually it costs families \u20ac14,000 for primary school and \u20ac17,500 for secondary school. That is not free. We have hot school meals and will debate them soon. I am happy with that and with the supports we give families. There are certain programmes that need to be universal in our schools so no one is stigmatised. That is a shining beacon of how things work. That works really well and I do not want to denigrate that. I am very proud to have that in this country. For a single person or family, the costs of running a car are huge, up to about \u20ac3,000 per year. On the other side of that, there is an increase in transport fares. Our Private Members' motion about that is tomorrow. With increased fares for buses, trains and Luas, will people go back into their cars? If they do that, it is very expensive. People are snookered with things like this. Increases in these payments are welcome but they will be eaten up quickly. The effect of child poverty when we have 200,000 children living below the poverty line in this country is shocking. I cannot explain it. I try to explain it sometimes to people who have never met the families I have worked with for 30 years. When I explain the level of need and poverty, they look at me as if I am mental and it is not true in such a rich country. It is true. The level of need is phenomenal. Putting all that together and considering the cost of living in this country, it is no wonder small and medium-sized businesses in this city centre are saying they will have to close down because people cannot come in and spend their hard-earned money on the nice things in life. People's social lives are being affected by the expense of getting from day to day. People are surviving; they are not living. We need to address this. I am shockingly worried as we come into winter about the effects heating and electricity bills will have on people."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Whitmore A constituent of mine in Wicklow is a young mother, 32 years of age. She has two young children and she was diagnosed with cancer earlier this year. I spoke to her partner last week and they are appealing for help. They are struggling to keep on top of things at the moment. She has had surgery, chemotherapy and radiotherapy and is unable to work. She applied for illness benefit and her application was initially refused because she had 254 PRSI contributions, six short of the required 260. They were advised her previous employment abroad could be used to satisfy the shortfall and she has provided all the documentation for that but they have now been waiting 22 weeks for a decision. They were originally told the process would take ten weeks. The Department has repeatedly advised it is awaiting information from the revenue office in the UK, despite that documentation already being provided by the applicant. This family is relying solely on one salary, a secondary school teacher. They are not eligible for additional supports and are \u20ac16 per week over the threshold for the working family payment. They also miss out on all the related supports, such as fuel allowance and assistance for SEAI home energy upgrades. All the while, they face mounting costs from her cancer treatment, including travel, parking, scans and over-the-counter medication. I think the Minister is aware of the case but I will get in touch and see if we can move this along. The reason I have gone into so much detail is I wanted to use this as an illustration of how inhumane the system can be - to be only \u20ac16 per week above the threshold and therefore not be eligible for anything, and to have to wait for 22 weeks for financial supports while having to deal with cancer, surgery, chemotherapy and radiation and having two babies at home. There is the worry of the finances and having to push and pull and ask everyone for help to try to get the application seen to. Twenty-two weeks is a long time to go without any support. Our social system needs to be flexible and a level of humanity needs to be built into it. The officers and staff do what they can but sometimes it is simply computer says \"No\". In circumstances like this, which are extraordinary, but also extraordinarily traumatic, families should get the support they need, when they need it and not be left struggling for it, talking to everyone they can and hoping the local TD or councillor can help. I ask the Minister to look into that. I also recognise the Minister's contribution earlier and thank him for what he said about the long-term unemployed. It was an important clarification he made. The discourse over the weekend was awful. It is difficult to see the people in those circumstances who cannot see any way out being used as a punching bag. Each of us here has a considerable platform. Our voices and what we say carry considerable weight. The more senior people are in their positions, as we go through the Government and up to the position of T\u00e1naiste or Taoiseach, the greater the weight they carry. Their influence is much greater. We look across the world to countries we would have looked to for inspiration and their societies are crumbling; I hope they are making their way back now. As the world crumbles, it is important we use our time here and our platforms for good, for cohesion, inclusion and kindness, and to present a vision for the country that is positive. We are not perfect. There are a lot of problems, but let us hear the solutions and not use a tiny cohort of people to deflect and essentially point the finger at saying they are the problem. They are not the problem, so I thank the Minister for his contribution."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Paul O'Shea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy John Paul O'Shea I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate on the Social Welfare Bill 2026, which gives legislative effect to a number of important measures announced in budget 2027. Our social welfare system is an essential safety net supporting people at different stages of their lives, whether they are pensioners, families raising children, people out of work, those living with disabilities or parents taking time away from employment. The measures in the Bill represent a further investment in that safety net and I am pleased to support them. I highlight one measure of particular importance to rural Ireland and the agricultural community in Cork North-West. The increase in the income disregard for the agri-environment schemes from \u20ac5,000 to \u20ac7,500 for the farm assist scheme and the non-contributory State pension means test is welcome. Farmers who participate in these schemes make an important contribution to biodiversity, climate action and environmental protection. They should not be unfairly disadvantaged when their social welfare entitlements are assessed. I will address another important issue, namely supporting people back to employment, particularly those unemployed for a prolonged period. Everyone who can work should do so and should have the opportunity to develop their skills and contribute to their communities. Despite a period of continuous full employment, the latest Central Statistics Office, CSO, figures for October show that more than 52,000 people have been on the live register for a year or longer. That is a significant number and one we cannot ignore. We must ensure that people who have been unemployed for a year, two years or longer are not simply left on the live register without meaningful engagement or assistance. That is why I particularly welcome the Government's intervention, publishing a new pathways to work strategy in the coming weeks, focusing on more intensive engagement with those furthest removed from the labour market. The Department of Social Protection provides a range of supports, including back to work schemes, education and training opportunities, work placement programmes and apprenticeships. Through Intreo offices, employment advisers can also provide tailored one-to-one assistance by examining individuals' qualifications and experience and developing a personal progression plan to help them to return to employment. This is an important responsibility attaching to receiving the jobseeker's payment. The fundamental condition of these payments is that people must be available for and actively seeking employment. Where people engage with employment service and make a genuine effort to find work, they should receive every support available to them. However, when people refuse to engage with employment services, there must be consequences. That is why I support the provision in this Bill to increase the penalty to \u20ac100 for those who refuse to engage with employment services. As Cathaoirleach of the Oireachtas Committee on Social Protection, I am conscious of the many issues raised by individuals, families and representative organisations. We must continue to examine the adequacy of social welfare payments and supports available to carers, people with disabilities and older people. Overall, this Bill provides worthwhile and timely-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Thank you, Deputy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Paul O'Shea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy John Paul O'Shea -----improvements to our social protection system."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy John Connolly I welcome the publication of the Bill, the Minister's contribution towards its development, which is obvious, and what it contains to assist people in our society who require assistance. I echo the sentiments of our colleagues to the left regarding the Minister's comments earlier today about those on jobseeker's benefit, the fluidity of those who are on jobseeker's benefit and the small number who are long-term unemployed, less than 2% of the workforce. It is important that we continue to support those families and make sure no one in our society is left behind. The Minister's efforts go some way towards that. I also welcome the introduction of the first permanent cost-of-disability payment. This is a milestone in Irish social policy. Future generations will reflect and look back on this measure in the same way as we look back on other landmark social protection initiatives that fundamentally improved people's lives. It acknowledges the reality, long understood by the Minister and our party, that people and families with members who have a disability often carry additional costs. Fairness requires that these costs be recognised by the State and they be assisted with them. Similarly, the changes the Minister has made to the income threshold to avail of the carer's allowance is welcome. It is a \u20ac150 increase for a single income applicant and \u20ac300 increase for a family with two incomes. This is welcome. I understand we are working towards trying to eliminate any income threshold to access carer's allowance, but this will help people and enable more people to avail of the carer's allowance. Given the important work carers do on behalf of the State, that is important. I share the sentiment of my colleague who spoke previously about the changes to the income thresholds for those who avail of agri-environment scheme payments, that is, the increase in the income disregard. That will have the impact of allowing farmers to participate in such schemes as ACRES, which will improve their income and contribute to environmental objectives while still retaining access to social protection payments, the farm assist scheme and the non-contributory pension. The measure removes a disincentive that existed for some lower income farmers to engage in schemes such as ACRES, and I welcome that. The Minister and I spoke previously. We had many conversations about this. I welcome that he has increased the income disregard for seaweed harvesting for those applying to the farm assist scheme and jobseeker's payment from \u20ac1,270 to \u20ac2,500 per year. That will be effective from next year. People might look at that measure and say it is not substantial, but it is important for everyone in the House to remember that it is the first change to the scheme since 1994. That is significant. It is a measure-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Thank you, Deputy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy John Connolly -----we will look at and build on in the future."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Murphy.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Michael-Murphy.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Murphy Next year, the State will allocate \u20ac31 billion to social protection. It is the largest single area of voted expenditure. At the heart of that allocation is the principle that we should reward work and enterprise but, equally, protect those who need our support. That is the principle of the social market economy, a strong economy alongside a strong social conscience. We should never lose sight of that balance. It is a huge commitment and reflects the importance we place on supporting our citizens. I particularly acknowledge carers in south Tipperary and changes in budget 2027 for carers. I consistently meet extraordinary people who devote themselves to caring for their loved ones, many of whom have sacrificed careers, incomes and opportunities to provide that care. Their contribution is immeasurable. It is important we continue to recognise that contribution not simply in words but through meaningful financial support. The same, of course, applies to those with disabilities. A person's dignity must never be measured by their capacity to work. I welcome the changes in budget 2027, particularly the cost-of-disability payment. We have a responsibility to ensure that disability does not mean a lifetime of financial insecurity or exclusion. It is equally important, though, that we recognise that social protection carries responsibilities. The latest figures show that 52,000 people have been on the live register for a year or more. At a time of strong employment, we must ask whether we are doing enough to help those who can work to get back into employment. That means education, training, apprenticeships and genuine opportunities. I welcome the forthcoming pathways to work strategy and its emphasis on individual engagement, but where a person who is capable of working is offered meaningful assistance but repeatedly refuses to engage, there have to be reasonable consequences. We need to be absolutely clear, though: we are not talking about carers, people who are unable to work because of a disability or those facing genuine barriers to employment. They deserve our understanding and support. The T\u00e1naiste, as the Minister knows, recently spoke about opening up opportunity to all while also ensuring that social welfare remains available when life takes an unexpected turn. I agree with that principle. A society that supports those who cannot work, creates opportunities for those who can and never forgets the dignity of every individual is the balance we need to strive to achieve."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cormac Devlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cormac-Devlin.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cormac-Devlin.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cormac Devlin I welcome the debate on the Social Welfare Bill 2026. The Bill gives effect to the social welfare measures in the budget. I acknowledge the work of the Minister, Deputy Calleary, and his officials in securing a record social protection package of over \u20ac30 billion, up \u20ac2 billion on 2026, which will help the most vulnerable in our society as we deal with continued cost-of-living pressures. At the centre of the Bill is the \u20ac10 permanent increase in core weekly rates from January. The State contributory pension will exceed \u20ac300 a week for the first time. The living alone allowance will go up to \u20ac25 a week, its first increase in five years. Taken together with the core increase and the higher fuel allowance, that is worth \u20ac816 a year to a pensioner living alone. I particularly welcome the changes to the fuel allowance. As the Minister knows, I have pressed for this on several occasions in this House. The rate will rise to \u20ac43 a week, and from January the income limit for a single person over 66 will rise by more than \u20ac100 a week. That will help older people in D\u00fan Laoghaire and right across the country with a small occupational pension who were just over the line. Most importantly, the fuel allowance opens up access to the many SEAI retrofitting schemes, which is very helpful. In my speech last year on the Finance Bill, I said that over the next four budgets we should move further away from strict means testing for full-time family carers. This budget takes another step in that direction, with the carer's allowance income disregard rising to \u20ac1,150 for a single person and \u20ac2,300 for a couple from July 2027. I also welcome the first ever cost-of-disability payment. It is much welcomed. I have one request of the Minister, though. The telephone support allowance helps older people living alone to pay for a phone or a personal alarm but only if they receive both the living alone allowance and the fuel allowance. The Minister's own figures show that almost 297,000 people over 70 on the household benefits package do not receive it. Extending it to them would cost about \u20ac36 million a year. Maybe that could be considered in 2027. I know the Minister does not want to discuss next year's budget already, but it is just a thought."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Kenny.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Martin-Kenny.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Martin Kenny It is good to be here to discuss the budget and the issues with regard to social protection. I thank the Minister for the clarity he brought to the Government's position with regard to the long-term unemployed. That is important. While many people were aghast at the T\u00e1naiste's comments, at the same time they pointed to something we need to deal with in our society. We have hundreds of thousands of people in this country who work every day, who get up, who are in low-income or medium-income employment and who struggle to pay their bills, struggle to find somewhere to live and to pay the rent or the mortgage and struggle for childcare and all those issues. They are the big issues facing our society, yet the T\u00e1naiste chose to point to a small number of people over there and try to divide people and blame a sector of society, and that is very wrong. At the same time, however, we need to examine that. The truth is that in my office and, I am sure, in every constituency office around the country, we have hundreds of people who come to us seeking a disability payment. Perhaps they have a mental health issue or perhaps they have other capacity issues. They find they cannot get that payment because they get back a letter saying, \"We think you will be better within a year.\" That is basically what they are told. The only option they then have is to go onto jobseeker's, and when they go onto jobseeker's, obviously, they have a difficulty in trying to source employment because the capacity is not there. We had job clubs and other services in the past, which were of assistance to them. They were shut down, and private companies like JobPath were put in place to provide the services for them. I will give the Minister an example. There was a woman in her late 50s in my constituency. I will give her the name Kate. Most of her life she lived with her two bachelor brothers and her elderly father, who had a severe disability. She got carer's allowance for a long period of her life looking after her father. Her father passed away when she was in her late 50s and she ended up on jobseeker's. She got a letter from JobPath sending her to get a job in a local fast food chain which was nearly 30 miles away. The woman did not drive or have a way to go there. She did go for the interview and, obviously, they saw she did not have the capacity for that job. That is the kind of thing the T\u00e1naiste was pointing to and blaming on that woman, as if she were the problem. That issue needs to be dealt with. We need to recognise that the system does not work for people who fall into that space between having a severe disability and having a moderate issue such that they do not have the capacity to find employment. That needs to be dealt with. As another example - and always in examples in our constituencies we can find these issues that come to the fore - I had a young man who, with his girlfriend, went to Saudi Arabia to work for a number of years to save the money to buy a house. They came back with a good lump of money saved up. He went back to work and was not very long back in work when he got cancer. He went to the State to look for assistance. As he had saved that money to buy a house, he could not get any assistance, and at the same time he could not get a mortgage because he had cancer. He could not get anything from anyone and he and his family had worked all their lives. Now, the issue was eventually resolved but it is an example of the unfairness of the system and how it needs the capacity to expand and to be nimble enough to recognise that not everyone fits into square boxes. That is one of the big issues I have with the entire system. One of the reasons that people are so concerned about what the Government is doing and so disappointed so often is that this neoliberal economic model we have in Ireland and in most of Europe is there to protect and bail out the banks and the corporations all the time, yet when the people who really try hard and really feel they contribute to society need assistance, they are turned away. That is why they turn to other dark places. The Government has a real responsibility to look after everyone in society and those who are on the margins, who find it difficult, who will be in long-term unemployment or who have other issues that need to be looked after. For the thousands and thousands of people who work hard, try very hard and at some point in their life find they need the system to help them and want a safety net, that safety net is not there. I know - and I have had this conversation with the Minister in the past - that he is open to trying to find solutions to that, but those solutions need to be found if we are to have a society that will function adequately."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mark Wall I welcome the opportunity to discuss the Social Welfare Bill 2026. As other speakers have done, I will start by thanking all those who work in the Department of Social Protection. As I have said before on a number of occasions, they really contribute to us in our roles as Oireachtas Members, and I think and hope that that assistance can continue because it is a sincere help to us all in our day-to-day work. I want to raise a number of points with the Minister tonight. Many he will not be surprised I am raising again because we have spoken about them previously in this House and at committee. The first issue I want to raise with him is the half-rate carer's allowance and older people. I have continued to raise this issue of older people caring for an adult child getting their carer's allowance cut in half when they go onto the State pension. I remind the Government yet again that we have 600,000 family carers in Ireland who save the State over \u20ac20 billion a year in unpaid care work. That is nearly the equivalent to a second HSE. They are the invisible backbone of our health service and provide 24-7 care, often without a break. Due to the lack of long-term planning and building capacity in residential and independent living options for people with disabilities, family carers are having to pick up the shortfall. This means that family carers aged in their 60s, 70s, 80s and even 90s are having to provide full-time care to an adult child with a disability. These family carers, upon reaching the pension age, get their carer's allowance cut in half. I know there is a programme for Government commitment to change this but there was no progress made in the recent budget on that change. The adult children of these carers should be supported to live independently. Family carers, who often go a lifetime without a break for their caring role, deserve to see their adult child live their own life. Despite the Government finally committing to same, family carers have still not seen the means test removed. In the Labour Party's alternative budget, we prioritised this and we would have finally removed the unfair means testing of family carers. We would also increase the carer's support grant and increase the cap on the number of hours a carer can work, which is an issue I want to discuss further with the Minister. The 18.5 hours that carers are allowed work at the moment comes up time and again. It is a barrier to care and one the Government needs to look at. I also want to talk to the Minister about older persons losing the fuel allowance and the SEAI grant. This is something I have raised with him before. First, however, I will speak about the living alone allowance. It was deeply disappointing that this was increased by only \u20ac3 per week. It has been a number of years since this payment was increased and \u20ac3 is nowhere near enough to support the households that need it most. Older people who are living alone already face higher rates of poverty, with at least 30% of them living in poverty. The \u20ac3 increase will not buy an older person a cup of coffee, let alone help them with the cost of living. The \u20ac10 increase in the State pension is well below the \u20ac15 increase the Labour Party had proposed in our alternative budget. The latter is needed to help households, such as the older people and carers I mentioned, with the current cost of living. As we all know, these are the people who have spent their lives building this Republic. More and more, I have seen the impact of the housing emergency on older people, often in the form of the loss of social welfare payments after an adult child has moved back home. As rent prices continue to increase and young adults get priced out of the housing market, they are having to return to the family home. This results in older parents losing payments like the fuel allowance, a vital support, especially given the current cost-of-living crisis. It also means that these older people will miss out on the \u20ac9,000 SEAI grant for solar panels, a very welcome grant that was announced recently in the budget. This is a huge issue for them. I have raised this with the Minister previously and I continue to call on him to intervene in this matter. The housing emergency is not going away any time soon, so we must adapt our social protection system to protect those who need help the most. I submitted a number of parliamentary questions to the Department in relation to the number of people losing out on this grant as a result of a son or daughter moving home. Unfortunately, the reply I got, which I have it in front of me, states that it is only calculated on a yearly basis. This is one of the biggest issues being raised in my office, namely, people having their fuel allowance cut because their son or daughter has moved home. I will give the Minister one example of a letter I got last night in a clinic in Kildare town. It states: Furthermore, based on the information you have provided, it has been decided by a deciding officer that you are no longer entitled to the fuel allowance as there is a qualified person resident in your household. That qualified person was the recipient's 24-year-old daughter, who spends four days in college and three days working part time. She is the only other person living with in the home, apart from a 16-year-old child. That is why the particular person, who is on disability allowance, has had their fuel allowance cut. We have discussed before the need for all those on disabilities to have a fuel allowance given their medical condition, but this person's fuel allowance was cut because their 24-year-old daughter came back to live with them, even though the daughter is only working part time, three days per week. These are the issues, and I can give the Minister example after example coming to my office. The problem is that these people are losing out. Whether we like it or not, they are losing out on the SEAI grants and, most importantly, they are losing the fuel allowance, which they need to heat their homes. It is very welcome that the fuel allowance went up to \u20ac43 per week, and it makes a difference for people. The Department was not able to give me the figures on this issue. We should look at it again. There are too many cases coming through my offices where people are losing out. I have given just one example from last night but, as I said, I can give the Minister more from the past couple of weeks. I also raise the withdrawal of payments for households that have been recently bereaved. Of course, the loss of a loved one is not only felt emotionally but it places an untold financial loss on the grieving family. The fact is that the same bills have to be paid but with half the income. This can be particularly difficult for older people on the State pension, whereby the payment only continues to be paid six weeks after the loss of a loved one. The Minister mentioned a change in that regard, but this is an extremely short period of time for a grieving wife or husband to adjust to. A number of my colleagues recently heard from and met, at the social protection committee, members of the Widowed and Bereaved Partners Ireland group, who spoke about the loss of some vital payments. One speaker told me they were unable to return to work for 18 months and the fuel allowance, again, was a great support to them, but when they returned to work, doing a few hours a week, they ended up \u20ac7.50 over the threshold for the fuel allowance. This is another example. That particular person was a nurse, and we all know how many nurses we need in this country. She has to cut her hours again to try to requalify for the fuel allowance. This example was raised at the social protection committee meeting by the Widowed and Bereaved Partners Ireland group. That is a massive loss for any person, considering the cost-of-living crisis in this country. We need to re-evaluate our social protection system to have a more compassionate policy response. I am also aware of the little-known heat supplement, which I raised with the Minister in the House roughly five months ago. In reply, he told me that we had 231,000 people on disability income support payments and 170,000 people on caring support payments. Yet, only 692 people were in receipt of the heating supplement. This is a way of ensuring that those who need it most actually get a heating supplement. Again, I refer to those who are on a disability payment and I will come to that again shortly. These people, who are coming to my offices and the offices of other Members of this House, need help but are not getting it. There is already a grant available but it needs to be advertised and promoted and access to it needs to be made easier for those who need it most. A lot of people have difficulty accessing the heat supplement, as reflected in the fact that only 692 people are getting it. As I said, that figure is from a number of months ago. In our alternative budget, the Labour Party put forward a package of measures to support vulnerable households. We would have increased the fuel allowance income threshold by \u20ac50 per week so more households would have qualified for the payment, while also increasing the payment by \u20ac7.50 per week and extending the payment season by another four weeks. The Minister will not be surprised to hear me talk about the domiciliary care allowance, DCA, as this is not the first time I have raised issues relating to the allowance in the House. It is extremely disappointing for many families of children with additional needs that it is one of the few payments not to be increased in budget 2027. I ask the Minister to explain why this payment was not increased. It is \u20ac380 per month, or less than \u20ac100 per week. It was one of the few disability payments left out of the cost-of-disability payment. I also raise the issue of eligibility. Information made available to me by the Department of Social Protection shows that from 2022 to 2025, nearly 16% of children on the DCA who applied for disability allowance were unsuccessful in their claims. This has left 1,300 children and families without this vital payment. I must stress that the DCA is a payment made in cases of severe disability. That is laid out clearly in the criteria, as the Minister will know. To leave nearly 1,300 children without this payment upon turning 16 is extremely cruel and cold. In the cases of many of the families I have been working with, their child has a lifelong disability. Unfortunately, these disabilities do not disappear when the child turns 16. That is why I continue to call on the Minister to extend the qualifying age for DCA from 16 to 18 to prevent that cliff edge. This is a vital payment for these households. The parents coming to my office in Kildare South need this payment. The DCA is used to deal with huge waiting lists and many families use it to pay for essential therapies such as occupational therapy, speech and language therapy and physiotherapy. The Minister will be aware that I have provided his office, as he asked me to do in a previous conversation, with details of the responses to families who are in this position as regards the DCA. The number of responses is now nearing 2,000. I hope that we continue to work on this very important matter and that we revisit the extension of the qualifying age from 16 to 18. To be fair to the Minister, who has spoken about this at the Joint Committee on Social Protection, I welcome that some progress has been made recently with regard to a cost-of-disability payment. However, \u20ac10 is a very low starting point. In the Labour Party's alternative budget, we proposed starting the payment at three times that, at \u20ac30 per week. There also seems to be an oversight in regard to who qualifies for the payment. I understand that only those in receipt of the blind pension, disability allowance, invalidity pension and partial capacity benefit will be eligible for the \u20ac500 payment. Thousands of older people have moved from some disability payments to the State pension. These are disabilities that do not just disappear because someone transfers to a new payment overnight. Since 2023, 24,911 older adults have transferred from the disability allowance and invalidity pension to the State pension. That includes 8,296 transferring from the disability allowance and 16,615 transferring from the invalidity pension. That is almost 25,000 older adults who have been left out of the new cost-of-disability payment because they have transferred to the State pension, in addition to those on the DCA, as I have already flagged. This is a massive oversight for these households. These are people who are living with disabilities and are already facing additional costs due to their disabilities, which, as we all know, can cost up to \u20ac15,000 a year. I ask the Minister to answer that and come back to us on it. I want to address the comments made by the T\u00e1naiste, Simon Harris, regarding people who are long-term unemployed. I welcome the fact that the Minister has tonight clarified his opinion on these comments. He is correct; jobseeker's allowance is not a lifestyle choice and is far from the most important issue in the country at this time. The T\u00e1naiste simply needs to look at the statistics. We are a country at almost full employment, and a low unemployment rate of 1.3% was recorded in quarter 2 of 2026, according to the CSO. That means that fewer than 17,500 people have been on a jobseeker's payment for five years or more. This is reduced further to 14,000 when people aged 60 to 66 are excluded, who are already struggling to find employment due to age discrimination and the need for pensions, etc., which we have spoken about previously. Additionally, the T\u00e1naiste ignores the fact that for many single-parent households, they are struggling to find work because of the chronic lack of childcare places available in many parts of the country. The T\u00e1naiste went on to call out a former leader of the Labour Party, but he neglected to mention that those comments were from 15 years ago, when the unemployment rate was 15%, a fact I am sure he did not consider when he was calling out the former leader of the Labour Party. The T\u00e1naiste could have spoken of what is actually going on in this country. He could have spoken about reducing the cost of childcare, the cost of living, the homelessness emergency or anything more constructive that the Minister and I are dealing with in the social protection committee, but he did not. There are a lot of positive increases in this Bill, albeit not to the extent the Labour Party would have introduced. The issues I have raised with the Minister are real and are felt by so many people coming into my clinics in Kildare South. These are the issues that families, those living with disability and older people are raising with me in my clinics. I know they are also raised continuously with many Members of this House. There is a cost-of-living crisis in this country. Many households are struggling and they need their Government to help out. Unfortunately for many of those families, they will still be left seeking help following this budget. However, I look forward to working with the Minister and his officials as we make our way through this Bill. I ask him to consider those important issues I have raised with him once again tonight."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eamon Scanlon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eamon-Scanlon.S.2002-09-12","memberCode":"Eamon-Scanlon.S.2002-09-12","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Eamon Scanlon The Bill contains a number of positive measures and I welcome all of them. In particular, I welcome the increased investment in social protection, the \u20ac10 increase in weekly welfare payments and the targeted supports for families, pensioners, people with disabilities and, most importantly, carers. Today I will focus on carers and family carers. Across our communities, thousands of people provide care every day for elderly parents, children with disabilities, spouses and loved ones. Their dedication allows people to remain in their homes, surrounded by family and community, rather than entering long-term residential care. I welcome the \u20ac10 increase in the carer's allowance and carer's benefit, together with the significant improvements to the income disregards announced in budget 2027. These measures recognise the enormous contribution carers make to society and our healthcare system. However, I believe we need to go further. Family carers provide service that saves the State millions of euro every year. Without them, many more people would require nursing home places, residential care and additional State supports. The programme for Government commits to phasing out the means test for the carer's allowance, and I welcome the progress made to date. I have long held the view we should continue moving towards a full abolition. Family carers should not be disadvantaged because they own a farm, a small business or an asset built up over generations. These assets do not help with day-to-day demands and the costs of caring, yet they still affect access to support. Keeping people at home is not only what most families want; it also makes economic sense. Residential care is becoming increasingly expensive. In one case known to me, a nursing home placement would cost a family \u20ac75,000 a year. While the fair deal scheme provides support, significant costs can still arise for many families. If we provide greater support to family carers and remove barriers to accessing payments, more people will be able to continue caring for their loved ones at home for longer. That improves quality of life, strengthens families and community networks and helps reduce pressure on nursing homes and residential care facilities. In the long term, this would save the State money. Supporting carers is not simply good social policy; it is sound economic policy. Family carers are one of the most important pillars of our health and social care system and they deserve greater recognition and support. For those reasons, while welcoming the Bill and the improvements it contains, I appeal to Government colleagues to continue building the progress already made to deliver further meaningful supports for carers and family carers and fulfil our commitment to phasing out the means test for the carer's allowance."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Carrigy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Miche\u00e1l Carrigy Ireland has a good social welfare system. It provides support to the people who need it. A good society looks after those who are vulnerable, and one of the ways to do this in Ireland is through the financial supports available through our social welfare system. An example of this support is the introduction of the pay-related benefit, ensuring that people who lose their jobs have a stronger safety net linked to their previous earnings. Supporting people who have lost their jobs is important. Jobseeker's payment provides financial assistance during periods of disruption, ensuring people have the support when they need it the most. However, there are cases of long-term unemployment where individuals have been living on jobseeker's payment for two and more years. That is not what jobseeker's payment, also known as the dole, is intended for. This does not refer to the people who are unable to work due to caring responsibilities, disability or illness or who are receiving other welfare payments. Fine Gael believes that everyone who can work should work. In Ireland, we have a strong economy. Despite a period of continuous full employment, the latest CSO figures show that 172,800 people were on the live register in October 2026. Within that, 52,000 have been on the live register for a year or longer. Last year, over \u20ac1.7 billion was spent on jobseeker's payments. That is a significant amount of taxpayers' money. As part of the jobseeker's payment system, the Department of Social Protection provides tailored one-to-one support for long-term jobseekers. Employment advisers in Intreo sit down with individuals, review their qualifications and skills and help them develop a personal progression plan focused on upskilling and securing employment. The key condition of receiving jobseeker's payments is that a person must be available for and actively seeking work. The clue is in the name: jobseeker. The programme for Government, agreed with our Fianna F\u00e1il and Independent colleagues, commits to publishing a new employment strategy focused on intensive engagement and supports to help those furthest from the labour market to enter the workforce. The new pathway to work plan is at an advanced stage. The Department of Social Protection has undertaken significant consultation on the plan and it will be published in the coming weeks. The plan will focus on a wide range of back-to-work schemes, education and training supports, work placement programmes and apprenticeships that are available to help people into employment. My colleagues and I believe that supports should be provided to those who need them, both financial and non-financial, whether for jobseeking, illness, disability or other circumstances. A good society looks after its people through supports such as these. However, I support the work of this Bill to ensure that those who need support receive it while also ensuring that those who can work receive the assistance and encouragement they need to obtain employment. With regard to budget 2027 and the cost-of-disability lump sum payment, which I welcome, I support the calls for financial tax breaks to be put in place in budget 2028 for persons with disabilities in the workforce who have not benefited from the cost-of-disability payment. They face the same costs of disability in their lives as any other person even though they are in the workforce. We need to look at that in budget 2028."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James Geoghegan I welcome this Social Welfare Bill. A strong social welfare system is not a sign of weakness in our society. It is a sign of strength that reflects our belief that people who fall on hard times deserve support, older people deserve security and families raising children and caring for loved ones deserve recognition. That is what this Bill delivers. It increases weekly social welfare payments by \u20ac10. This includes pensions and payments to carers and people with disabilities. It increases supports for families and children and raises the income thresholds for the working family payment. That matters enormously to families across Ireland who get up every morning, go to work, raise their children and still struggle to make ends meet. I particularly welcome the recognition of carers. I have met many families who care for children with disabilities, whose contribution to our society is extraordinary. Their work is work and our social protection system must recognise that. There has been considerable debate about the T\u00e1naiste's comments on long-term unemployment. I understand why people have strong feelings about this issue but we should be capable of having a reasonable conversation about the underlying principle. Sinn F\u00e9in seems to think that calling someone a Tory or accusing them of Thatcherism is a substitute for making an argument. There is nothing contradictory about believing in a strong social welfare system and believing that people who can work should be supported and encouraged to do so. Those principles belong together. Work is about more than a payslip. It provides independence, dignity, confidence and opportunity. If somebody has been unemployed for a long period, our ambition should be to help them into employment rather than simply accepting that they will remain outside the workforce indefinitely. That requires training, effective employment services and recognising the genuine barriers many people face. It also requires an expectation that people will engage with the supports that are available. We must distinguish between people who cannot work, people who face substantial barriers to employment, and those who are capable of working but who refuse to engage. The objective should never be to punish unemployment but to overcome it wherever possible. Ultimately, a good social welfare system protects those who need protection, recognises different forms of contribution and creates opportunities for people to build better lives. That is the balance we should strive for. That is why I support this Bill."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy John McGuinness All of the narrative around the proposal that everyone should work and about representing those who get up early in the morning for work is quite offensive. Humanity is a messy business. It is not perfect. We should strive to do the best we can with it but there will be those who cannot work or who will need assistance. They should not be targeted by anybody. I have seen too much of that going on over the last ten years. People are saying they represent this or that. It is all about people who get up early in the morning to work casting aspersions on those who may not be able to get up, get out of bed or go to work or who do not know how to work. We should remember that. In here we talk about weakness in our society and supporting those who are weak and vulnerable. Yes, we should but we should not then, in the next sentence, say that we should get them all out to work as if we are going to jackboot them into a position where they would have to do something they are incapable of doing. We need far greater humanity and compassion in what we are saying about others. I do not like what is being said about others without real foundation or any real intent of creating a society that we can be proud of and that will support those who need to be supported. I will raise this directly because I am going to make a submission on behalf of the two families involved. Families in Kilkenny recently experienced terrible flooding. There was a big hullabaloo about it. Television cameras turned up, as did the Taoiseach. The Minister was there. We were all there, as politicians, standing in the flooded home of two elderly people. A commitment was given that they would be supported out of the hardship they had found themselves in through no fault of their own. An elderly pensioner cannot go back into her home because she cannot get the full supports necessary to put her home in a liveable state in spite of her family giving her everything they could to support her financially. Another lady cannot go back into her home because she cannot face the endless investigations, examinations and form filling to get even the basics. Any system that has humanity and compassion as part of its thinking would reach out to those people, particularly those who were on the ground floor of their houses, to support them. It would ensure they get the level of support needed to allow them to live in their homes again. Is that asking too much? With regard to the emergency response payment and the actions of the Department of Social Welfare, they all worked very hard and we got great service from them in our offices but it must be said that the Minister has to look at this and has to ensure the appropriate level of funding is given to allow those people to go back into their homes. Is that not a basic right? Is that not the basic response of any government that has a social conscience at the centre of what it does? It is a test for the Government and those Ministers who stood in those houses to deliver what they said they would deliver for the families who are affected."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett Budget 2027 was a cruel and callous exercise in demonstrating who in our society Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael believe to be worthy of support. If ever there was any doubt of this conscious and deliberate choice, the remarks of the T\u00e1naiste over the weekend made it grossly clear. Out of ideas and unable to excuse the lack of support his budget provided to the ordinary Irish worker and family, the T\u00e1naiste had to dig out the most clich\u00e9d of classic Fine Gael tactics and attack people on social welfare. His predecessor spent nearly as much on media for his attack campaign as was every recouped for the Exchequer. It was certainly only ever a fraction of the amount he touted. Those harsh facts are a reality for the T\u00e1naiste's party. What this is really about is creating a distraction from the T\u00e1naiste's miserable budget. It is about pointing the blame at anyone but himself. The proof is before us in this Social Welfare Bill. It enables paltry half-measures that will do little to even keep pace with inflation, let alone offset the undue financial burdens borne by our people in recent years. It is shameful that the Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael parties go along with this. Perhaps more shocking is the utter lack of cost-of-living measures. Having previously withdrawn the energy credits, the Government's measure is simply to get over it. Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael have put out the message that you should get used to living in a colder house. That is not exactly what they are telling people as regards the fuel allowance. The parties have tried to sell a \u20ac12 decrease as a \u20ac5 increase. The once-off lump sum of \u20ac500 is a sop to the idea of a cost-of-disability payment. As opposed to Sinn F\u00e9in's proposals, it is not a blueprint to address the cost of disability in our society. It does not provide a pathway to ensure the broadest possible coverage, coverage that would include our pensioners. There was much consultation preceding the development of this payment but it seems the Government simply did not listen to the disability advocates. This is not a social welfare Bill. It will do little to improve the welfare of the most vulnerable in our society. It will not see payments keeping pace with inflation, let alone undo the damage done by the failures of recent years. For disabled people, this lump sum will do nothing but undo a fraction of the damage the Government has done by withdrawing supports. With one hand the Government gives \u20ac500 but the other hand covers its mouth so as not to speak of the \u20ac1,400 previously taken away in the budget. This budget once again leaves people worse off. Ten euro for pensioners will be gone as quickly as it is received in the face of ongoing inflation. People deserve better than this and the suffering caused by this Government."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ruth Coppinger I am sure a lot of others have referred to it as well but it merits mentioning because this is a social welfare debate and the T\u00e1naiste is the T\u00e1naiste - the second in command in this Government. What he said at the weekend, or last week, in the run-up to the Fine Gael Ard-Fheis was outrageous. I do not know if there is anyone here from Fine Gael. Not surprisingly, they tend to come in and escape as soon as they make their comments. Fine Gael did what Fine Gael does best, which is to pick a minority group and have a go at it, especially during a cost-of-living crisis and when the bill for the national children's hospital is mounting up for which Deputy Harris is directly responsible. It has already been referred to but this nonsense about people who get up early in the morning is ableist and classist and it has to stop. It is a disgrace. It is like the ads that have been sponsored about full attendance at school pushing children who for lots of different reasons are simply not able to go. I speak as somebody who had full attendance right through school but it is nonsense to be pushing this concept that everybody is able to fit into that. I will go into the figures in a second but I suppose attacking people on social welfare gave migrants a break. That was the only thing I was thinking of - the migrant workers and the refugees that Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael have been punching down on of late. I do not know why Deputy Clendennen is shaking his head. It is so blatantly obvious to everyone. The dogs on the street can see what they are doing. It used to be unmarried mothers and single parents. It is always some group that well-heeled people on very good wages in Fine Gael, of which the T\u00e1naiste is one, have the neck to pick on. The statistics are very revealing. First of all, the T\u00e1naiste said the dole is a safety net and not a way of life and that it is not acceptable for any person to remain on the live register. By the way, the live register is made up of people who do work. He is not even accurate with his facts. It includes people who are laid off for periods of time, seasonal workers, etc. He gave wrong figures for the long-term unemployed. He said it was 52,000. He said he was lifting people up and that it did not include disabled and elderly people but, of course, it does because many people are disabled but cannot get disability benefit for lots of different reasons because of the criteria. They include people with mental health issues, people with temporary disabilities and older people, who are going to find it very difficult to get a job in this economy. The CSO figures for quarter two of 2026 for those who have been unemployed for over a year are 38,900 so, again, the T\u00e1naiste was not even accurate. There are already penalties for those people. They have had penalties imposed, for example, if they missed two appointments. How does Ireland compare? What is this big problem all of a sudden with long-term unemployment? The figure was 1.1% of the Irish workforce and went up to 1.3% recently. The EU average is 1.9% so it is way below the EU average. There are other problems with unemployment. Youth unemployment is a real problem that this Government needs to get to grips with. Many highly qualified young people cannot get jobs. The T\u00e1naiste knew what he was doing. He may not have got all the facts right but he knew that what he was doing was finding a group that it is very popular to attack in some quarters. The ESRI has come out and said, on arguments like this, that 58% of people believe welfare payments make people lazy, so obviously there is an audience there for it. Meanwhile back at the ranch, the housing crisis and the cost-of-living crisis go on with efforts to resolve them thwarted by this Government. There has been no action. It was a great distraction for the past five days. Hopefully, this is the last time that we will be discussing it but this has been a distraction from the real issues. I want to talk as well about disability because disabled people were those most cruelly treated by this Government in the budget. The deficits in the payments they had lost out on had been well identified and the Government came back with \u20ac10, which basically it gave to every single group. Before the election, we heard a huge amount about carers because we know carers generally are good for voting so the Government decided, and not just the Government but many parties, to make promises it had no intention of keeping. The means test for carers is really cruel and is also extremely anti-women because it is mainly women who end up giving up their jobs and careers to become carers for their own children, many of whom need full-time care. Usually the woman may not be the best paid so she gives up her job for this. Women then find themselves dependent upon their partner, if they have one, for everything in life. They have no guaranteed income of their own. This has been raised again and again and it was used in the pre-election preamble by so many parties, Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael in particular, to promise the sun, moon and stars. The Independents, who are not here tonight and who made up the Government, were leaning into it big time as well. What did the Government do? It turned around and did nothing for carers at all apart from tinker around with the reckonable income. It is not the same as getting rid of the means test. It has already been pointed out how the cost of this is very affordable if we look at the tax base in this country. I also want to mention the cost-of-disability payment, which is a \u20ac500 lump sum that will be paid in January. Inclusion Ireland has said that it falls well short of what is required. It comes to about \u20ac962 per week, which is not enough for people who have disabilities to live on. The cost of having a disability in this society, at a very conservative estimate, is about \u20ac12,000 a year and this does not come close to the cost of the taxis that a disabled person has to order, the extra heating that he or she needs, the extra water he or she often needs to use and then of course all of the equipment and over-the-counter things that he or she has to buy that are not supported. It is incredible. Anybody who has lived with anybody with a long-term illness or a disability can see that. I believe that people who are disabled should have their own non-means tested income. Again, it is very affordable. It should be costed and we should see if it can be done because the amount of tax revenue taken in from multinationals and the wealth that we have in this society could easily be increased to pay for it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Seamus Healy This is a very wealthy country - one of the wealthiest in the world. The 2027 budget is the fifth consecutive annual budget with a surplus. There are 11 Irish billionaires, who are wealthier than more than 3,500 Irish people combined. The background to this Social Welfare Bill is a cost-of-living crisis and everybody here is well aware of that. Every family in the country is well aware of that. Over the past five years, prices for goods and services have increased by about 22%. The 2026 budget made the position far worse, as the Minister of State knows well. It abolished all cost-of-living supports and hit the poorest 10% of the population hardest. People with disabilities lost out by anything up to \u20ac1,400 in that budget but the big developers and fast food chains got huge tax reductions that came to about \u20ac680 million. PAYE workers again paid increased tax because of the freezing of income tax bands and credits. Budget 2027 continued in the same vein. The cost-of-living crisis is having the greatest impact on middle-income families, low-income families and social welfare recipients. Budget 2027, which is effectively being implemented by this Bill, failed those families and prioritised the golden circle of the rich and powerful in our society. Last year, it was the burger barons and big developers who got the golden handshake, and this year the reduction in capital gains tax from 33% to 31% handed almost \u20ac200 million to very wealthy landlords and property owners. These include some of the 11 billionaires I mentioned earlier who are wealthier than 3.5 million Irish people combined. For such a wealthy country, the poverty rates here are absolutely shameful. More than 200,000 children are living in poverty in Ireland. It is worth saying that again: there are 200,000 children living in poverty in Ireland. We have 687,000 people living in poverty, with 40% of disabled people living in or below the poverty line and 256,000 people live in consistent poverty. The percentage of people at risk of poverty has increased from 11.7% to 12.6%. Low-paid workers and persons relying on social welfare support, single parents, pensioners and people with disabilities experience poverty the most. The Central Statistics Office, CSO, has said almost half of households - 44.8% - said they had some difficulty in making ends meet in 2025. Of course, this increased in 2026 due to the abolition of the cost of living supports and energy credits. The fact that over 200,000 children live in poverty is particularly shameful. A payment of child benefit can have a significant effect on reducing child poverty, yet this Government and previous Governments have refused to increase the child benefit payment from \u20ac140 per month. It has been ten years since child benefit was last increased, in 2016. Of course, this hugely decreases the value of the payment due to inflation. This Bill should be amended to ensure child benefit is increased to at least \u20ac200 per month per child. The minimum wage and social protection payments are also below the poverty line. This Bill should ensure the adult rate of social welfare is increased to \u20ac350 per week. Pensions, disability allowance, invalidity pensions and carer's allowance must all increase to that figure to at least bring them just above the poverty line. Family carers do a huge amount of work on behalf of the State. Since 2016, the number of family carers has increased by 53%, and the number providing care for over 43 hours per week has doubled. It is relatively accepted on all sides of this House that carers save the State something in the region of \u20ac20 billion per year. A recent survey by Family Carers Ireland showed 71% of carers find it difficult to make ends meet, 75% never receive respite, 32% have bad or very bad mental health and 49% experience extreme loneliness. Many carers become ill themselves and some even pass away before the individual they are caring for. It has been said previously that in the run up to the last election, every party in this House promised the abolition of the means test for carer's allowance. That was a commitment given in that election but has since been broken. Family Carers Ireland also made a very modest request to have the carer's support grant, a grant paid once a year, increased by \u20ac150 - not even in line with inflation - but that was not granted. If we look back from 2021 to 2024, there was no increase in that grant. There was an increase in 2025, but that was of course ahead of a general election in November of that year. There has since been no increase in 2026 or 2027. This should be rectified in the Social Welfare Bill. There are a huge number of unavoidable costs associated with caring, which is why the carer's allowance should be increased to \u20ac350 and why a proper cost of disability payment should be paid. For carers in particular who are involved in education or training, the 18.5 hours working outside the home should be removed for that training and education. Many elderly parents and carers over the age of 66 are being paid as half-rate carers, and this needs to be addressed. Family Carers Ireland has asked that the full rate carer's allowance be paid to pensioners who are caring. In particular, the working family payment should be amended to ensure income from a carer's allowance is disregarded in the means test for that payment. This is a particularly cruel regulation, and I appeal to the Minister to look at, change and include the amendment in this Bill. I have encountered a very difficult situation with a constituent family whereby a son with very complex and difficult needs was being looked after at home on a 24-hour basis with the support of two family members right around the clock. That young lad passed away and the family tried to get back to some bit of normality. The father was able to get some temporary, part-time work but his working family payment was reduced when taking into account the carer's allowance his wife was receiving for another child with a disability. This needs to be addressed and changed. The cost-of-living crisis is now worse than ever. Half a million people are in arrears for electricity and gas, and we have the highest electricity prices in Europe. We need a cost-of-living package to be included in this Bill, like the package brought forward in October 2024 in advance of the election of that year. I remind the Minister of what was in that package in an attempt to buy that election. There were two electricity credits of \u20ac125 each; a \u20ac300 fuel lump sum for those on fuel allowance; a \u20ac200 lump sum for those living alone; a \u20ac400 lump sum for carer's allowance, working family payments and disability allowance recipients; and there was double child benefit in November and December of that year. That is the type of package that is needed now and that should be put into this Bill. The cost of living crisis was bad in 2025, it is worse in 2026 and is only getting more difficult into 2027."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Clendennen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy John Clendennen I welcome the opportunity to speak on the Social Welfare Bill 2026. It is a good opportunity to discuss just how far we have come from a social welfare and social protection perspective in recent years. This year alone, we see new measures equating to over \u20ac1.5 billion and a 7% increase year on year. I want to acknowledge the staff at the Department and the work they do in helping every TD in this House to deal with concerns, queries and, in particular, appeals. We have seen great progress. Social protection must ensure that assistance and supports are provided for people who might need them for a particular period or a particular reason, depending on the environment. It is also important that we ensure we give people the opportunity to seize opportunities for themselves, along with independence. I do not have time to go through all of the measures, but I would highlight the phasing out of the means test. To see the income disregard increase in recent years from \u20ac450 to \u20ac1,150 shows that we are moving towards phasing out means testing for carer\u2019s allowance. We see the changes to the State pension, the living alone allowance and also child benefit. Those in the Opposition need to make up their minds. Do they want universal supports or do they want targeted supports? In addition to child benefit, we have measures on schoolbooks, school uniforms, school meals and so on. These are all very welcome. I know there has been a lot of debate in recent days in relation to unemployment. We have to ensure that the State does the service that it should in supporting people who have found themselves out of employment for a period of time and giving them a hand up to get going again. That should be through employment strategies such as Pathways to Work, and ensuring that Intreo, training and skills are all provided for. That is something that has to be provided as a priority at a time of full employment, and a time when we welcome migration from all corners of the world. Despite what some Deputies might believe, this is a country that is welcoming, and it is running well in terms of the economy\u2019s strength and the jobs we have to offer. We recognise that the domiciliary care allowance is a very important measure. However, where carers are in receipt of domiciliary care allowance, they do not get a cost of disability payment for those under 16. We need to ensure that the cost of disability payment is made available to everyone. In the last few seconds of my time, I would ask the Minister to consider an initiative for adaptive toys for children with disabilities. Far too often, these are multiples of the price that we see on toy shop shelves, plus there is the cost of customs and postage. I ask the Minister to look at that as an initiative."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Erin McGreehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Erin McGreehan I welcome the Bill and the improvements the Minister, Deputy Calleary, is bringing forward for pensioners, carers, people with disabilities and working families. First, I want to focus on means testing and the impact that has on people\u2019s independence. There are women who come to see me in County Louth and others across the country who have spent years raising children, caring for family members and working to support families, communities and the State. Yet, at retirement, some have insufficient contributions for the full contributory pension. When assessed for a non-contributory pension, household means can leave them with a reduced payment or no pension of their own. I know that changes were made previously, but many women are still locked out. They feel penalised twice, first for leaving paid employment to care, and then because their partner\u2019s income is assessed against them. A household income does not necessarily give a woman financial independence. The programme for Government commits to a comprehensive review of means testing. That review must address these women\u2019s circumstances and deliver practical changes. On carers' allowance, I welcome the increased income disregards and the commitment to continue to progressively increase them with a view to phasing out the means test during the Government\u2019s lifetime. I look forward to the further changes. We also need a dedicated kinship care payment. Grandparents, aunts, uncles and other relatives can step in to raise children, often in a time of crisis. They provide a secure home and keep children connected to their families, but can face considerable financial pressure themselves. We should be supporting these families with a reliable payment that recognises the responsibility they have taken on. For people with disabilities, I welcome the very first cost of disability payment. It recognises additional and unavoidable costs. In the next budget, where the payment needs to increase, we must also examine support for people with disabilities who are working. Those costs do not disappear when someone takes up a job. For example, the lack of accessible transport can mean expensive journeys to work, and the potential loss of a medical card and subsequent worry of meeting ongoing medical costs can seriously affect whether taking up a job is financially manageable. We cannot encourage people into employment while leaving them to struggle to afford the supports that make work possible. The increased earnings disregard and the reduced minimum hours under the wage subsidy scheme are positive steps. Eight hours can be an important start for someone managing a fluctuating condition. We must also support individuals to return to employment from long-term unemployment. There are schemes in place, but we must build on these, possibly by working more closely with ETBs or Skillnet networks to provide training, build confidence and offer practical support. That means recognising each person\u2019s individual circumstances and helping them to develop the skills they need to move into sustainable employment and thrive there."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joe Neville I wish to speak as a Government Member. I support the Bill and thank the Minister and his Department for all the effort and thought that was put into it. The budget, like any budget, was difficult because you are assessing the needs and varying wants of different areas. I feel that what we have done here will ensure that people seeking the help of the Department of Social Protection are looked after. We talk about people working, but we need to ensure that we increase the tax bands and that it pays to go to work. We also need to ensure that where there are those who cannot go to work, or where families are not in a position to be rewarded and looked after, the State supports them fully. We are lucky. As a lot of people have noted, maybe in a different context, that we are a rich country. We are very lucky to be in the situation that we are in as a country. We are very lucky that the Government is in the situation that it is in. It means we can look after the most vulnerable, and I believe that is what this element of the budget fulfils. It fulfils the duty to those people who might be ill, who might not be in a position to go to work or who might need to care for those who are less fortunate. People might also be in a position where they are between jobs, as we know. I am sure many Members across from me and around me have found themselves in such situations at different stages, where they have looked to the arms of the State for support, and the support of the State has been there for them. Once again, that is what this budget seeks to do. It also seeks to specifically increase the amounts that are available to people. At the same time, when we talk about \u20ac10 a week, I know that can be a challenge. I am not going to say that is salvation for everyone, because it simply is not. We know costs are increasing, much of it for reasons outside the hands of the State, and I know that is difficult for those people. However, at the same time, there is a realisation and understanding from the Government side that this money is required and that support is necessary. As I said, that can go from children\u2019s allowance support from the State and right the way from the cradle to the elderly stages of life, so we ensure that people in need get those extra few euro. I think that is very important. Colleagues across the floor have referenced the T\u00e1naiste\u2019s comments in his speech over the weekend. We have to be very careful not to take them out of context. What we are talking about here is not the people who cannot work, or the people who are between jobs, but people who simply refuse to engage. That is the term we need \u2013 it is the refusal to engage. Anybody who wants to get jobseeker\u2019s allowance can get it, and we are going to support them as best as possible."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Keira Keogh Social welfare is about providing practical support to people as they navigate the everyday and extraordinary pressures of life. It gives meaningful assistance to people at a time when many households and communities across Ireland are contending with significant costs. In particular, I want to talk today about the increase in maternity, paternity, adoptive and parents\u2019 benefit to \u20ac309 per week. While I welcome that, I believe this House should consider how we can further strengthen support for families in the years ahead. I commend the T\u00e1naiste on taking paternity leave and on showing leadership in this area, where it is not yet the norm. We have a way to go culturally in encouraging more fathers to take the leave that is due to them. However, we must also be real about the fact that even with the increase to \u20ac309 per week, many families simply cannot afford for the father to take paternity leave. Median weekly earnings in Ireland are currently \u20ac759. That \u20ac309 will not pay the bills that keep coming, even more so when a new baby comes into the house. I would like to see us at some point getting to paternity leave of 20 weeks and getting all of those benefits to 80% of people's salary. That would not only help children's development by allowing both parents to be at home but would also help us take giant leaps for gender equality. I am a proud member of the cross-party group on pregnancy loss. We are making important progress on recognising the impact of miscarriage and pregnancy loss. We are close to a baby loss certificate, which this Department is working on, and the Department of the Minister for Enterprise, Tourism and Employment, Deputy Peter Burke, is working on a Bill on leave for pregnancy loss, which will allow five days' leave for the first time for loss before 23 weeks. I welcome that and I think employers welcome it too. However, I do not want us to forget about women who are pregnant and self-employed and who may lose a baby before 23 weeks. As the leave Bill that is working its way through the House will be for private employers, those women will be left behind. We should look at how they could be looked after within the social welfare system. On the comments about long-term jobseekers, I agree with my colleagues here today that the T\u00e1naiste was not pushing anybody down. This is not about people who are struggling to work for reasons of disability, health or transport. It is about ensuring that if people can work, we help them to get to work. As Chair of the Joint Committee on Children and Equality, I know that lifting children out of poverty will be easier if families have meaningful, productive jobs. This is about helping people to engage with all of the services that are there to do that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa Social welfare is about providing supports to individuals and families who require them for the period they are required. People are commenting on what the T\u00e1naiste said because the T\u00e1naiste said what he said so that people would comment on it. That is the fact. We know we are talking about a very small number of people. I believe that everybody who is fit to work should work. I could say that if the parties in government had been serious about this over the years, and about putting in the supports for those who require them, we would not have seen them get rid of the job club and the local employment service. Nor would we have seen, at times, a reliance on job activation schemes operated by private firms that did not put in the supports that were required, particularly for those with more complex cases. We all agree that work should pay. It is about making sure that the State, and the Government, does its bit to ensure that we have employment of a particular level and that we provide the supports that are required. Let us be serious about the cost-of-disability payment. Anybody who has engaged with any of the disability advocacy organisations will say they are downright \u2013 I do not know how to put it - angry or disappointed, but this is not what they wanted. It is an abject failure. Too many times, we have come in here and said that \u20ac1,400 cut from the last budget, and \u20ac500 that will be paid only to a certain cohort of people with disabilities, is not going to cut the mustard. That is less than \u20ac10 a week. If we are serious about job activation, and I accept there have been certain helpful changes to the wage subsidy scheme, then we need to look at the entire set of supports, whether work and access or the wage subsidy scheme, and at what is needed to facilitate both employers and those with disabilities who want to be in employment. We need to put a proper framework in place so that we can deliver real, decent employment. Many of the employers who have used the wage subsidy scheme, particularly those who employ multiple people, have given out about the rates and say they do not cut the mustard. I have had this conversation with the Minister, Deputy Calleary. We need to look at the entire sphere because we all accept that an insufficient number of people with disabilities are employed in this State and that our percentage is far too low. Alongside that, it is about providing the work and access supports, reasonable accommodations, and making it easier for individuals to apply and for companies to operate the scheme because, in fairness, we are not cutting the mustard. I draw attention to an issue I have raised a number of times at this stage. It is the fact that an exceptional needs payment is not available to those who previously could have got a grant from the council to, let us say, replace a boiler. I am not only talking about oil and gas but about people who cannot wait the 15 months for the warmer homes scheme and who do not have the money. I also raise the case of people on fuel allowance with, let us say, a child who cannot leave the home at this point in time. They are getting screwed over, in the sense that fuel allowance has been taken for a child who cannot leave the house."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn The central test of any social welfare Bill is whether it raises living standards. By any measure, this Bill falls extremely short. While welfare rates are increased, the withdrawal of the temporary cost-of-living supports means that many households will be significantly worse off this year than they were last year. The ESRI has said that this budget will result in an average reduction of approximately 2% in household disposable income. Those reductions will fall primarily on households on lower incomes. Those with the lowest level of disposable income will see a cut of 4.1%, while those with the highest will see a reduction of 0.3%. The households affected are those with the least capacity to absorb the additional costs they are dealing with. They are carers, pensioners, people with disabilities and lone parents. They are the people who are struggling with the rising cost of living in this country. The Government points to increases in welfare rates and, for sure, those increases are welcome. However, the relevant question is whether they will make up for the withdrawal of previous supports to families. For most families, the answer is very clearly \"No\". One of the major issues we in Aont\u00fa have been raising for many years is that energy poverty is getting worse in this country. There are 330,000 families currently in electricity arrears. Some 180,000 households have been in arrears for more than 90 days, which is the highest level on record. That is a legacy of the Government and the actions it has taken. If electricity and gas arrears are included, there are 500,000 units in arrears in this country. That is a staggering figure for a country so wealthy. A total of 500,000 units equates to roughly 1.3 million people living in households that cannot afford to pay for energy. This will get worse over the coming months this winter. My real frustration with the Government is that it is an engine of the increase in the price of fuel in this country. If a person pulls into a filling station today and puts \u20ac100 of petrol into the car, \u20ac45 of that will be tax. That is exceptional. Fuel is not a luxury good; it is a staple good. Yet, the Government is taxing it to levels people cannot reach. We are the most expensive country on the planet for electricity. We recently beat Barbados to that infamous title. One of the reasons is that the Government is charging so much in network charges. Every household in the country pays \u20ac500 every year in network charges. Just last month, the Commission for Regulation of Utilities, CRU, put up network charges by \u20ac40 or \u20ac41 a year for every household. The reason for that is the infrastructure is so decrepit we are losing much of the electricity we generate. There are so many bottlenecks in the system and that is why it is costing so much. We still have a system in this country whereby electricity is priced at the marginal price. For example, if it is produced by gas, the price goes sky-high for all of the units consumed. I want to talk about people with disabilities. The Government has significantly let down people with disabilities in terms of the cost-of-disability payment. The Department carried out a review into the cost of disability. It wrote a report, and yet the Government refuses to implement the findings of that report. It is estimated that it requires an extra \u20ac25,000 a year to deal with the costs associated with having a disability, and it is substantially higher for people with severe disabilities. If the Government knows the information around this and refuses to provide the money for it, it is doing an enormous injustice to the people in that cohort. Disability also does not disappear with age, and the truth of the matter is that a lot of people with disabilities have a disability allowance, but then they go on to a pension and it does not help them in that situation either."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Collins While there were increases in the budget and there is no point in me saying anything different, in keeping pace with the cost of living, these fell short for many people. My biggest concern in recent times is that more people who are getting disability payments and things like that are being investigated and having the payments taken off them. There were different people in my clinics over the weekend. One person's disability payment was withdrawn from them, and she did not feel well. The other person had applied for a carer's allowance, had a leg amputated and was told she would not qualify. God almighty, how do you qualify in this country? Do you have to be missing your head to qualify for a carer's allowance? It is an astonishing situation to think that a person with that type of a disability was refused. There is something wrong somewhere. It is very easy to save money or say that the Government's budget is giving out more when we are taking away the little bit of comfort that people have. To be honest, I am not sure if the Minister of State is the relevant Minister as this relates to social welfare, but it looks like he is the only one here to answer questions. The bottom line is that I would like to think that the Government would look into why people in the disability sector and their carers are having their money withdrawn from them and be a bit more caring. The Government promised that it would remove means testing from the carer's allowance. It did not deliver that. It has not delivered it yet. This affects a lot of people out there. I was at a meeting about CoAction in Bantry on Thursday night after leaving the D\u00e1il. There are adults with intellectual disabilities who have no respite whatsoever. In fairness, I hope to God that the tide is turning because the HSE said that it was providing funding, but that should have been provided. It is putting serious pressure on management in CoAction because they cannot deliver it if they do not get the cash. That is the bottom line, and it comes back down to the foot of the Government. At the same time, these people, who in some cases are caring in their 80s and 90s, are being called at four, five, six or seven o'clock in the night, never mind during the day, to care for their family. That is an indictment on a country that does not care for its people. It cannot give them a little bit of respite and does not want to give them the carers. It is as a simple as that. It is watching every penny. As I said to someone, if they have an extra cow in the field, it means that their wife who is looking after the child cannot get the carer's allowance. It is most likely the wife who is doing that. In relation to the pension, while the increases were welcome, and there is no point in me saying they were not, I find that a lot of people are still telling me that they are unable to fill the oil tank because they do not have that money. It is \u20ac1,500 or \u20ac1,600. It was maybe \u20ac800 or \u20ac900 a couple of years ago, and they were able to do it then. They are now in a desperate situation, and when the Government had a chance to give them something, the only relief they got was \u20ac40-something, so that oil tank is going to remain empty. This is what matters to the people on the ground. In relation to USC, Fine Gael promised the people that it would abolish it, but they are still paying it. That is a huge frustration for people. It is an extra tax. The previous speaker spoke about fuel. If you fill your tank with \u20ac100 of petrol or diesel, \u20ac45.50 goes to the Government. It is making a cash cow out of motorists which is totally and utterly wrong. We need to look after the working people. That is where we need to focus a lot of investment in relation to social welfare in the future. They are people who need a lot of help because they are keeping the country going, but they are finding it the most difficult of all, and they are all the way back from the worker to the small businessperson. I have mentioned it several times today that, thank, God Cork County Council rejected a plan that Independent Ireland spoke very strongly against to increase the rates by 7.5%. That would have taken out businesses all over the place. They would have been taken out in Castletownbere, Allihies, Ardgroom, Eyeries, Bantry, Schull, Bandon and Bantry. All of those places cannot survive at this present time. We support and understand those businesses. Whether they are in Carrigaline, Youghal or Fermoy, we will support those businesses. Independent Ireland made sure that did not go through yesterday, but I was disappointed that the Independent councillors fell across each other to vote. Is it all for chains and chairmanships in councils instead of thinking of the people they represent? They must knock on their doors in Castletownbere and Carrigaline in time to come and is that they way they are leaving their people? It is an absolute disgrace. These people are struggling at this present time. There is another area that I would like to spend a lot of time talking about and that is the self-employed. If he is in connection with his constituents, which I expect he is, the Minister of State knows as well as I do that people are coming and saying, \"I am self-employed. I fell and broke my leg, and I cannot get anything.\" If a person is working for someone, they will automatically get relief, which they deserve to, but the self-employed who are delivering so much cannot get a brown cent. It is so difficult. I met somebody in a filling station the other day, a young man, and he told me that he had serious cancer. He said that he had been employed but had been self-employed longer. He applied for something to give him a chance to recover and got nothing."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard O'Donoghue It is ironic that Fine Gael had its Ard-Fheis in Cork and they spent more time giving out about Independent Ireland to their councillors and Deputies. They also talked about ideas that I am on the record discussing in this Chamber three or four weeks previously. They are 16 years in government, and all they can do at their Ard-Fheis is give out about Independent Ireland, which is in existence for only two years. It is ironic that the recent poll taken by the Irish Farmers' Journal showed that Fine Gael dropped from 31% down to 6% with the agricultural sector."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Now, Deputy, we are discussing the Social Welfare Bill."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard O'Donoghue I am going to that, and this goes back to what the T\u00e1naiste said when he was talking about social welfare. This is the man who was talking about social welfare and trying to copycat what we said. I will say it again, and if the T\u00e1naiste is listening, he can copy it again. I have no problem with people in this county who are social welfare and need it. I have no problem with that. As a working person, I have no problem supporting people with disabilities who cannot work, who are unable to work, and who are trying to support their families. I have a huge problem with people who are abusing the social welfare system and who are laughing at the people in this country who are working. I have people who I know very well who have a disability. It allows them to go out and maybe work ten or 12 hours a week if they are able to do it, but they are doing it because they want to contribute. We have a small sector of society that never wanted to work a day in their lives, never will work a day in their lives and get rewarded all the time. This is why I mentioned the T\u00e1naiste, Fine Gael and Fianna F\u00e1il. They are 16 years in government. Independent Ireland comes out with this a couple of weeks ago, and it is on the record of the D\u00e1il, and the T\u00e1naiste now brings it up at an Ard-Fheis. Where was he for the last 16 years? Why has he not been tackling this for the last 16 years? The only thing that this Government has been doing is targeting the people who work in this country and making it unaffordable to work - the squeezed middle. God knows, they should get a subsidy for working. They should get a break for working. Two people working in a household trying to fulfil for their family cannot make ends meet and a minority of people, who never worked a day in their lives and never want to, get rewarded. As I have said, I am self-employed all my life, and thankfully I was given the health and hands to have a trade. I contribute as much as I can even within our own sector. I have brilliant people and their families working with me in our business. They get up every morning to get to work and ask what more they can do to help the vulnerable, elderly and people who cannot work. They have no problem with that. They will work all day and all night to help them but we have not got one bit of help back from the Government. All it does is tax the fuel we use going to work and if we earn an extra few bob, it taxes us on it. If you are self-employed in this country and anything happens to you, you are a statistic. It is a case of \"Fair play to you, thanks for helping\". You might have employed as many people as you could and done brilliant work helping communities but when something happens to you, you get nothing. Regarding those on social welfare, it is about being able to work. We have done a small bit of work on this. How many people out of the minority I am talking about have been involved in crime while they were on social welfare? If they are able to rob people, they are able to work. Why can they not join the dots regarding those people committing crimes? Everyone in this House supports people who cannot work and who need the subsidies but the ones who can work should get off their behinds, get out and help the people and do a bit of work. That is all I am asking for."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Nicholas Gogarty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul Nicholas Gogarty At face value, the increases in core social welfare rates and family supports, maternity benefit, paternity benefit, adoptive benefit and parental benefit - the \u20ac309 along with \u20ac10 for pensioners - are all positive. At face value, they are going to help people face rising costs but let us face it, they are incremental. They are barely going to keep up with inflation and other costs when people are suffering across the country, especially when the supplemental energy supports have been removed. I previously called this budget an inflationary budget that has failed to address rising costs because of taxation measures that have done nothing to improve services. Ultimately, this social welfare element lacks ambition and fails to address the real hardship that some in our society face - our most vulnerable citizens. Sadly, the Government continues to underestimate the additional costs faced by people living with disabilities so while the once-off payment may provide temporary assistance and is more than last year's amount, it clearly does not address the reality that many disabled people face massively higher daily living costs every week. Annually, that would be up to \u20ac25,000 in some cases as some of my colleagues have said. Whether it involves transport costs, energy usage, assistive technology, specialised equipment, medical expenses or personal supports, the additional cost of living with a disability is substantial. We have had multiple debates on this and the advocates for disabled people have worked hard to get the message across as have people living with disabilities that we need a long-term commitment to recognise these costs rather than relying on periodic lump sum measures. I welcome the increase in the carer's allowance in terms of the income disregard but I think this budget forgot that carers are continuing to save the State billions of euro through their personal contributions to their family and friends, often at financial sacrifice. Many carers remain excluded from support because of the way the means testing arrangements are carried out and they struggle to balance these caring responsibilities with employment so, again, while one has to give some credit, it is incremental and is not enough. I want to raise an issue that is not addressed in this Bill, namely, the position of women who face redundancy during pregnancy. Across the House, we welcome the increase in maternity-related benefits but I did not see anything in the legislation for a woman who loses her job through a genuine redundancy while preparing for the arrival of a child. There is a 16-week period where these women can get some sort of maternity benefit if the birth is pending but other than that, women face enormous financial uncertainty during one of the most vulnerable periods in their lives, so we need to look at additional measures. Germany has what would be described as the best practice situation. I have put down a few parliamentary questions in this regard and will be examining the responses in due course. I refer to the T\u00e1naiste's comments at the Fine Gael Ard-Fheis where I would say he punched down and went for the cheap sound bite criticising people in receipt of social welfare. We all know there are people who need incentives. We all know there is fraud in the welfare system but I got quite a few emails after my appearance on \"A Week in Politics\" where I pointed out that due to AI and not being given the opportunities to gain experience, young people are not being offered jobs. These people are graduates and people with master's qualifications but they cannot get a job for the simple reason that they have not built up the experience and after a couple of years, it gets harder and harder and it gets even more difficult to get ancillary jobs to keep things going while they get the job they train for. They felt quite insulted by what the T\u00e1naiste put out there, so instead of punching down, we should try to create new supports for young people because while there are some measures out there, graduates and people who have just done their leaving certificate are not being given the opportunities to gain the experience. We need some sort of a hybrid model for all types of people working in those type of environments."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed I refer to two previous speakers. I was self-employed for 18 years. I took the decision to go into self-employment. The tax code was clear and the PRSI and the welfare rates were clear in terms of contributions. It was my decision to take a risk. I never expected anything major back from that system and I think most people who go into self-employment do not have any expectation. They are very clear about the risks and what the systems and the supports the State can provide will do for them. I just wanted to say that because some people do not seem to get that The Bill is about recognising the pressures that many people continue to face and the true test of any society is how it responds to those pressures and tries to give people some support. We are fortunate in Ireland to be in a position that many of our European counterparts are not in. In Europe, governments are facing difficult decisions and are trying to scale back public spending. In Ireland, we have over \u20ac30 billion to spend on social welfare for this coming year, including almost \u20ac1.15 billion on new measures. One of the most significant measures in this Bill is the introduction of the first-ever cost-of-disability payment, which is expected to help over 240,000 recipients. I mentioned this last year and it is great to see it coming to fruition. People with disabilities have extra costs that I or others may never even have to think about. This payment acknowledges as a first step that those costs are real and the State has an important responsibility to help people address them. While it is a welcome first step, we can do a lot more in this area and I look forward to further progress. We are also strengthening support for carers. The carer's allowance supports over 112,000 people. From January, the carer's allowance will go up by \u20ac10 per week and from July 2027, the weekly carer's allowance income disregard goes up to \u20ac1,150 for a single person and twice that for a couple. These changes will effectively allow more carers to qualify for and benefit from this really important support. The Bill also gives supports for parents and families. The increase in child support payments will help and the increase in the working family payment income threshold widens it a bit and means that an estimated 63,000 people will now benefit. Older people will also benefit with changes in the State pension. One issue I want to raise is VHI fees and charges. It is not necessarily directly relevant to this Bill but older folks in particular worry a lot about escalating VHI charges and we really need to look at that. In conclusion, these measures are only possible because the economy is doing so well. There is lots more to do but I support the Bill."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Brennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Brian-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Brian Brennan I welcome the Social Welfare Bill 2026. I listened with interest to previous speakers. I am a new TD but I am totally taken aback by the memory of some TDs when they spoke as though we have done nothing in the past 15 years. Look at the statistics. I was in business when the unemployment rate was at 15% and people were kicking down the doors of my hotels to try to get employment. Now, we are 1.5%. If that is not a step in the right direction, then I am lost in debates. It is simply wrong to say that nothing has been done. Looking at other countries in Europe, the unemployment rate is at 10% in Spain. In the UK, it is at 5%, while it is at 6.5% and 32% in Canada and South Africa respectively. We must look at where we have come from. Some people in the Opposition have short memories based on the conversation and debate held in this Chamber today. We have to deal with the facts. The fact we have reached an unemployment rate of 1.3% is hugely positive, but it is costing the State \u20ac1.7 billion. The T\u00e1naiste was correct to bring a start to the debate in this regard. He is not discussing people with disabilities, carers or people who have just lost their jobs. Rather, he is discussing the long-term unemployed, namely, people who are unemployed for at least one year. He is questioning why they are in that situation and what supports we can give them. Able-bodied men and women are sitting at home. Is that healthy? That is the question the T\u00e1naiste is asking. Why are they not working? Let us engage with these people, put courses and programmes in place and develop personal progression plans for them. That is what we are talking about. It cannot be healthy for someone, whether a parent or child, to be sitting at home when they are fully able to work. That is the question the T\u00e1naiste was asking on Saturday night. We should have that debate. It is healthy to do so. We also must look to the future. We must continue to engage on the issue of unemployment. There is a serious fear about what might happen down the road with artificial intelligence, AI. Some people are in two minds about it. Is the glass half full or half empty? Are we going to have massive job losses that will be replaced by AI? With regard to the carer\u2019s allowance, the programme for Government clearly commits to abolish the means test for the carer\u2019s allowance. I hope we stand firm with that commitment."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Martin Daly I welcome the social welfare budget for 2027. I welcome the increase of \u20ac2 billion, bringing the total budget to \u20ac30 billion. I note that, within nine years, we have moved from \u20ac19 billion to almost \u20ac30 billion in social welfare payments, despite a burgeoning economy and an almost full employment rate. Of course, we have to recognise that we would not be able to afford the supports contained in this budget without the industrial dynamo of the Irish economy, which has been nurtured by successive Irish Governments with forward-looking policies. I wish to reflect on some of the commentary made. We have an unemployment rate of 1.3%. We need to be careful that the tone we use regarding that unemployment rate is one of encouragement, rather than one of beating down on people who may not have the resources or time. We want to arrive at a situation where people who can work should work, but we must also reflect on the last time this issue was raised in 2017. Claims were made of widespread welfare fraud when that turned out not to be the case. In fact, it was less than 0.2% of the social welfare budget. We have to reiterate that our social welfare system is, by and large, absolutely legitimate, supportive and progressive. It looks after our old people, our children and people who simply cannot work due to disability, as well as those people who are out of work short term. I welcome the increases to the domiciliary care allowance and the wage subsidy scheme. In the time remaining to me, I will comment on the carer\u2019s allowance income disregard. It has been increased substantially over the past two years. I would like to see, in the lifetime of the Government, the end of the means test for the carer\u2019s allowance. I also ask that further consideration be given to allowing more flexibility around the 18 hours individuals in receipt of the carer\u2019s allowance are allowed to work. We should make every effort to allow people to work those 18 hours in a flexible way without losing benefits."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Cahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Cahill I raise an issue that is having a real and, in some cases, devastating impact on people in receipt of disability allowance and the non-contributory State pension. Both of these are means-tested payments. The current treatment of inherited shares in Kerry Co-operative Creameries under the means assessment rules is fundamentally unfair. At present, the market value of a person\u2019s Kerry co-operative shares can be assessed as means, regardless of whether the person has received any money from them or has the ability to sell or access them or their value. A constituent of mine lives with a disability and inherited Kerry co-operative shares. He is not in a position to fully understand or manage those shares, yet their assessed value has resulted in his weekly disability allowance payment being stopped. That is completely unacceptable. One is either disabled or not. These shares are not money in someone\u2019s bank account. They are not necessarily accessible funds that can be used to pay household bills, put food on the table or meet the rising cost of living. The situation is particularly concerning for pensioners. The \u20ac20,000 capital disregard under the State pension non-contributory means test can quickly be exceeded when the market value of these shares is assessed and added to even modest personal savings. People who have worked hard or inherited a small shareholding should not find themselves penalised or potentially deprived of essential social welfare support. Every pensioner looks forward to receiving their pension. To deprive them of that is sinful. At the very least, they should receive a partial payment. There is also the question of taxation if those shares are sold. Tax liabilities may arise, meaning the individual will not receive the full market value that is being attributed to them in the means assessment. I ask the Minister of State to urgently review this approach. At an absolute minimum, the value assessed should take account of the tax payable on disposal. However, a fairer and more practical approach would be to assess the actual dividend income received from these shares, rather than their total theoretical market value. People with disabilities and older people should not be left without essential supports because of shares they may have inherited but cannot readily access. The Minister must address this anomaly and ensure the social welfare system treats these people fairly. The current system is an attack on our elderly and those with a disability. I ask the Minister of State to intervene to address this anomaly."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Healy-Rae First, I want to publicly put on the record my sympathies to the Minister of State, Deputy Collins, on the loss of his uncle, the late Gerry Collins. Like the Minister of State, he was a man who gave a great contribution to politics, both locally and nationally, for many years. He should be respected, and so should the Minister of State. He is an awful loss to you all. Turning now to this important issue, the work that has been done and is continuing to be done by the Government on the carer\u2019s allowance and the means test is important. Over the past two budgets, more and more people have been able to come into the net, as I call it, and qualify for the carer\u2019s allowance. We have to get to that stage for every person who is caring for someone. The strict means testing that was in place meant that people who were providing care were still not entitled to get the allowance. That was wrong. These people are doing a great service to their communities and families by taking care of relatives and, indeed, people who are not related to them at all. That is important. I wish to again raise the issue of couples who have been left out of this budget through the inheritance tax. I am talking about parents and couples who, for one reason or another, do not have a direct heir of their own."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"They work hard and see what I call double or triple taxation of their money and assets, which they have worked hard for. I was hoping last year that there would be something in the budget for those people and again this year. There were a lot of constraints and a lot of things were being called upon, but surely to goodness we can do something for those people. We have to get to the stage where we can do that."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Regarding the fuel allowance, the cost of fuel is ever increasing. It is hard to believe that there are still people who should be getting fuel allowance but are not. There could be a widow whose husband might have had a private pension and because of the income going into the house, she might be debarred from getting the fuel allowance. That person is living on only a pension, is elderly and may be living alone and relying on all-electric heating or having to buy solid fuel or, worse again, home heating oil. Those people are struggling and I would have liked to have seen consideration given to people like that. When it comes to budget time, social welfare and the Department, the Minister and Minister of State are doing excellent work. However, at the same time, it is a balancing act trying to make sure they take care of everyone."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"I will tackle the elephant in the room, the words of the T\u00e1naiste about long-term reliance on the dole, jobseeker's payments or whatever you like to call it. That we want to try to encourage people not to look at it as a way of going through life is obvious. Any parent, grandparent, politician or anyone worth their salt would want to tell people they should work. People have reasons for not being able to work, whether it is intellectual or physical, but we have many schemes for upskilling and training. For young people of 18, 19, 20 or in their 20s to decide they will not work because they will be able to claim jobseeker's payment, that they will get some payment, is an awful way for them to set out on life's journey."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Life is not a practice run. People get one chance at it and, for people to achieve and do any good, it is great the State, via the Department of Social Protection, is there to help people. If people have a disability and are unable to work, we are still trying to help them to get to do something to fill their days, have them on different types of training programmes or something to keep them occupied. However, for a young, healthy, fit young man or woman to think they do not have to work because there is money there for them is rubbish."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"I hear people making these suggestions. It was like the T\u00e1naiste had grown horns and become the divil all of a sudden for suggesting we should talk about people on the jobseeker's payment long term. There is nothing in the world wrong with asking people why it is going on so long and saying we want to encourage them. It is not that we want to do that people out of something, but we would like to encourage them and show there is a better way of living."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"We are at full employment. The one thing everyone, including the Ceann Comhairle, is hearing employers say every day is that their biggest problem is having enough people to do the work and that they could do much more if they could get people to work. At the same time, we have people who say they cannot get work. Then the T\u00e1naiste said we should do something about it and people criticise him. I cannot understand that. I cannot square that circle at all, because we should be encouraging people to work and doing everything in the world to ensure the only people claiming a jobseeker's payment are those who genuinely need it, that is, those who, for a genuine reason, cannot get work. However, having people who are fit and healthy not working is not good for them, their families or the State. It is not good for anyone. We should be watching out for things like that and having a debate about it."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The work being done with training programmes and all the different organisations is welcome. We should be encouraging more of that. I am grateful in County Kerry, for instance, for the great work being done in the Munster Technological University, MTU, and the expansion that has gone on and will continue to go on there. That type of work is welcome."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Danny Healy-Rae I too commiserate with the Minister on the death of the former Minister, Gerard Collins. He was a regular visitor to our house at different times. I extend my sympathies to all the family. I welcome the increases in the budget to welfare payments and benefit payments, including jobseeker's benefit and maternity benefit. I also welcome the payment for people with disabilities because it costs them more to live. It is an important payment. I thank all the social welfare workers, those in the offices who help us all daily and those in different roles who help people with disabilities. The benefit payments, so it is clear, are payments people are entitled to based on their contributions. People who work for years and pay their taxes should be entitled to a payment when they need it. I have raised this before and ask again today why it is that those on a benefit payment do not qualify for the fuel allowance. Women on maternity benefit at home with a small baby are not entitled to fuel allowance. It should be paid with the benefit payment as those people have paid their fair share of taxes down through the years. I ask that this is be looked at and ensured. For example, a pensioner living with a cancer patient on illness benefit does not qualify for fuel allowance, although the combined State pension and illness benefit payments are considerably below the fuel allowance means threshold. It is wrong that those getting benefit payments do not get the fuel allowance. The cost of fuel is exorbitant at present, whether it is heating oil, coal, electricity or foreign briquettes - we do not have our own briquettes any more. It is unfair that they do not get the fuel allowance. There are 1.8 million additional home support hours for elderly people in the budget and we are told that home help hours increased in previous budgets. This is welcome. However, it is a fact that every day people are approved for home help, but it is not happening because the people do not come. They are waiting for months. They have been let out of hospitals on the strength of getting help at home and it is not happening. It has to be addressed. I know one elderly lady who is 83 years of age. She was approved for home help in May 2025 and it still has not been put in place - imagine - 18 months later. She is living alone in dreadful pain. She cannot get out of bed on her own or dress herself and is prone to falls. I have made representations more than once on her behalf to the HSE and as recently as 22 October, I got the same reply saying it does not have sufficient capacity to meet her home support needs. This is unacceptable. It is sad to think an 83-year-old person who dearly wants to live out her life in her own home cannot get help. I will initiate a serious investigation into this, to see why it is has happened like this. The community employment, CE, scheme is a great scheme for workers. It gets them out and improves their social activity. They are generally paid a small sum of money. They do great work in their communities. However, when workers get to pension age, they have to stop working and coming into the CE scheme, which gives many workers a lot of heartache. They have been told they can continue working, but they will not get one extra cent of pay. This is carrying the thing to the fair altogether. It is totally unfair. No one should have to work for nothing. No pay is not fair. Enough money is being wasted and likes of Mother Teresa are long gone. This is a ridiculous situation. Another sector that is hard done by is the self-employed. I have been one of them for many years and I know what it is like to be injured or out of action and to get nothing from anywhere. There are people with young families who are struggling to survive. They do employ people and have paid a lot of taxes so it is wrong that they cannot get disability or anything. They get nothing. The working family payment is there to bridge the gap for those on a minimum wage or low income. It is very unfair that this payment can then put a family over the threshold for social housing. I have come across this on several occasions where families have been thrown off the list because they got the family income supplement and that can put them over the threshold for social housing. It is proof when they get it that they need it to live, survive and put food on the table. It should not be treated as raw income and force them off the social housing list. I have often had people who were on the housing list for nine or almost ten years. They were almost there but just because they qualified for the family income supplement they were thrown off the list and had to start again when the family income supplement stopped. That is totally unfair. I hope the officials are listening because I want this to be addressed. It is totally unfair when people have given that length of time, and often longer, on the housing list only to be written off it and have to start all over again. I will go back to the self-employed and something that is very unfair. In 2012, a Minister or T\u00e1naiste in a different government promised that she would address this. I will not mention her name as she is not here tonight to hear me. Over the years so many Ministers have promised to do something to help the self-employed. God damn it, they are employing people and have employed people. They put everything at risk to employ people and to work but when they come a cropper for an accident or something that puts them out of commission, they still do not qualify for an illness benefit payment or something of that kind. It might be 12 months before they qualify for any payment of any kind. There are things we welcome in the budget but there was something that gave a lot of insult to me and a lot of people: \u20ac3 extra a week for people on the living alone allowance. That is neither here nor there, as I said at the time. It would not buy a cup of tea or a bar of chocolate. It would have been better not to mention it at all because it insulted so many people. An extra \u20ac3 is a very small amount for people who have been waiting for something a long time."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Social Welfare Bill 2026: Second Stage"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_22","debateType":"motion","bill":null,"showAs":"Toll Charges and the Cost of Living: Motion [Private Members]","counts":{"speechCount":34,"speakerCount":32},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_22","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louis O'Hara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanna Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Kenny.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Martin-Kenny.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ann Graves","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ann-Graves.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ann-Graves.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Natasha Newsome Drennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Cullinane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Johnny Mythen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Johnny-Mythen.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Johnny-Mythen.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dessie Ellis","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dessie-Ellis.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Dessie-Ellis.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Erin McGreehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Charles Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Charles-Ward.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Charles-Ward.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Stanley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Nicholas Gogarty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Carol Nolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Cahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niall Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niall-Collins.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Niall-Collins.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Johnny Guirke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Johnny-Guirke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Johnny-Guirke.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maurice Quinlivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donna McGettigan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donna-McGettigan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Donna-McGettigan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig O'Sullivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-O'Sullivan.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-O'Sullivan.D.2019-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pa Daly I move: That D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann: recognises that: \u2014 there are 11 toll roads in operation across the State, ten of which are on the national roads network, with two of these being in full public ownership, and eight roads across the State are tolled under Public Private Partnerships (PPP), with the Minister for Transport holding responsibility for overall policy and funding in relation to the National Roads 2040 programme; \u2014 households and workers across the State continue to face significant cost of living pressures, including the rising costs of rent, energy, food, insurance and transport; \u2014 motorists are already facing substantial financial pressures arising from fuel prices, motor insurance, motor tax, vehicle maintenance and existing toll charges; \u2014 for many workers and families, particularly those living in rural areas and communities with limited public transport, travelling by car is a necessity rather than a choice; \u2014 toll charges represent an additional financial burden on workers who rely on the national road network to travel to and from employment, education and essential services; \u2014 further increases in toll charges in January 2027, would add to the cumulative financial pressures facing motorists and households; and \u2014 annual increases in carbon taxes, which have been implemented by the Government since 2020, and are set out to 2030, have raised the price of motor fuels, with the T\u00e1naiste and Minister for Finance holding overall responsibility for tax policy; notes that: \u2014 private toll companies have recorded millions of euros in after tax profits in the past year, and these profits are growing to record levels; \u2014 the existing gold-plated PPP contracts, that permit toll increases and generous traffic guarantee payments, are a legacy of bad economic policy choices and decisions made by successive Fianna F\u00e1il led Governments, while workers who depend on tolled roads for their daily commute incur significant annual costs, simply to travel to and from work; \u2014 motorists are being charged higher tolls year-on-year for roads that are growing increasingly congested; \u2014 new data has shown that hiked tolls on the M50 motorway have done nothing to reduce congestion since the new toll regime began, meaning this is another punitive measure from a Government that punishes people because they have failed to provide any alternative; \u2014 families should not face additional transport costs at a time when household budgets remain under considerable pressure; \u2014 the Government has a responsibility to consider the cumulative impact of increases from toll hikes, and the impact on household living standards; and \u2014 there is a precedent for this, and the Minister for Transport said, on the eve of the General Election, that toll hikes should not go ahead, and the cost of living has risen sharply since then; and calls on the Government to: \u2014 stop the proposed increase in toll charges scheduled for January 2027, ensuring that motorists are not subjected to additional financial pressures at a time of continuing cost of living difficulties; \u2014 undertake a review of the cumulative financial burden of toll charges on regular commuters, workers and families, particularly those with no viable public transport alternative; \u2014 examine measures to provide greater relief for frequent road users who depend on tolled routes for work and essential travel; and \u2014 ensure that future decisions on toll charges take full account of affordability, household incomes and the wider cost of living pressures facing motorists. Ordinary workers and families have had enough. They have had enough of being treated like cash machines, of being told there is no money to ease the burden on households while government after government signs off on price hikes, and enough of Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael making life more expensive for ordinary people at every available opportunity. Across all of the issues that come in here, through housing, student accommodation, roads and energy, the Government\u2019s modus operandi seems to be to facilitate profits for investors. At a time when the cost of living remains so high, the Government has decided that motorists should pay even more - more at the petrol pump, for insurance, taxes, charges and now more at the tollbooth from 1 January. The reality is the people being targeted by these increases are not wealthy executives or investors. They are healthcare workers travelling to hospitals, parents bringing children to school, tradespeople trying to get to work and small businesses keeping local economies alive. Endlessly, the Government talks about public transport options but in huge parts of rural Ireland these options simply do not exist. There have been new bus services put on in the recent years but these are decreasing year on year where now only four new services were introduced this year. What makes this decision even more outrageous is that motorists are already paying extraordinary amounts in toll charges. There is a double indemnity in the deal that was done with the Government because they get huge increases in traffic, profit and income and built into it is the guarantee that with the cost of inflation that will go up and up. Last year alone, the M50 generated \u20ac216 million in toll income. The M50 and the Dublin Port Tunnel together generated \u20ac251 million. That is about \u20ac688,000 every single day. Across the State, toll roads generated about \u20ac476 million in one year. Despite this, motorists are still stuck in traffic, congestion is rampant, journeys are getting longer and now the Government wants people to pay even more for a deteriorating service. We are told that these increases are necessary but for what? They are not reducing congestion and the evidence shows that previous toll increases on the M50 in particular failed to deliver any meaningful reduction in traffic volumes because people still have to make the same journeys. The truth is that these tolls are increasingly nothing more than a revenue-raising exercise. They are attacks on getting to work, on bringing your child to school and on participating in society. The Government is not managing transport demand - it is monetising necessity. Private operators are continuing to record substantial profits. The operator of the Limerick tunnel reports an operating profit of almost \u20ac12 million. Toll hikes helped to push profits up by 10% and this year they increased again at a rate significantly above inflation. Let us be honest about what is happening. The increases are not about protecting struggling motorists, helping families or tackling congestion but protecting revenue streams and protecting profits. The Minister argued before the last general election that toll increases were too high and should not proceed. Now, when he is in the Cabinet he is standing over exactly the same policy that was criticised. He has the power to stop this. Increasing tolls is not a fait accompli \u2013 it is a political choice. The Government did it before following a motion introduced by Sinn F\u00e9in in 2022 when toll increases due in January of 2023 were deferred. That can happen again. The only thing missing now is the political will. Which side is the Minister on? Is he on the side of the workers and the people going to school or college or is he standing with the operators who are recording millions in profits while families are struggling with household bills? Government TDs also have a choice to continue down the road of endless increases and endless excuses or to stop the toll hikes. They can finally start addressing the fundamental injustice of forcing people to pay more and more for a system that they have no choice but to use. We say scrap the toll hikes and support this motion. Workers and families have paid enough. I will mention some of what is in the Minister\u2019s counter-motion. \"Lies, damn lies and statistics\" is the old phrase. The Minister's amendment mentioned that the Government has implemented significant reforms under the action plan for insurance reform December 2020. He says boldly that average motor insurance premiums have fallen by 34% since 2016 but what he did not say is to look at the 2014 figure. According to the Central Bank, the average cost of insurance was \u20ac431 then and is now \u20ac655 - an increase."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louis O'Hara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Louis O'Hara The recent announcement of toll hikes across the State comes as yet another blow for drivers, hauliers and commuters but good news for private toll companies, which will continue to see their profits increase while drivers pay the price. Year after year, we have seen congestion grow on our motorway network and the cost of road transport increase, especially for those who operate haulage businesses. Following the latest announcement, the Irish Road Haulage Association warned that toll increases will increase operating costs for freight operators and these costs will inevitably be paid by consumers buying everyday essentials. These increases will have a significant impact on every driver who uses the motorway network. Somebody driving from Galway to Dublin must pass through two tolls, or three if they are travelling to Dublin Airport. This all adds up. These toll hikes come at a time when drivers have seen significant increases in the cost of fuel, insurance and other basics associated with running a car. For many people, especially those living in rural areas, driving is not a luxury. The Minister knows that many people simply do not have a viable public transport alternative and they have to use their cars and the motorway network daily to access employment, education, healthcare and other essential public services. The cost of driving has become a major pressure on families and households across the State, yet over recent months the Government has failed to deliver the measures needed to support households with that cost. When it comes to toll hikes, it is increasing the pressure on families. Four years ago, following pressure from Sinn F\u00e9in, the then Minister for Transport acted to halt toll increases due to take place in 2023. It can and should be done again now. People will remember that on the eve of the general election in 2024, the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, called for toll increases to be scrapped. In 2025, he said in the D\u00e1il that toll increases were far too high but allowed them to go ahead anyway. He has offered nothing but spin and soundbites, promising one thing and doing the complete opposite. He has the same powers to stop toll hikes that his predecessor had in 2022. He must use these powers and ensure motorists do not face yet another increase in the cost of driving."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Tax, tax, tax - that is all this Government wants to do to people. Everywhere people turn, the Government is hitting them with higher taxes and higher costs just for the basics. It is no different when we are talking about travel, whether on public transport or keeping a car on the road. The Government's decision to hike up toll charges in January is its latest bright idea to take more money out of the pockets of ordinary people. Let us be honest. Tolls are a bad policy. They are a bad way to deliver infrastructure. We have rip-off contracts stretching over 25 years that provide terrible value for money. They are a gravy train for the private companies, while taxpayers are left to pick up the tab for tens of millions of euro. These tolls were never a good idea. Now, in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis, the Minister, who said before the election that they should not go ahead, is jacking them up, hitting thousands of ordinary families who rely on these routes every day. Diesel prices have been hammering these same drivers and insurance costs have gone through the roof. In the Finance Bill, the Minister wants to increase VRT, and then he comes along and jacks up toll charges as well. People have had enough. It is time to put workers and families first. We should have no toll increases, no new toll-funded projects and no renewal of toll contracts when the leases are up. For many workers these roads are not a luxury or a choice. They are how people get about their everyday lives, yet every year the Government seems to find another way to reach into people's pockets and make life harder for them. The Minister knows damn well because he is the Minister who said toll increases should not happen, but that was before an election. Fianna F\u00e1il forgot about that when they got their seats. The Minister has the power to stop this toll hike. It can be done in the morning. We forced the Government to do it in 2023; the current Government should do it now. It is a political choice and one that it should make. It should make the right choice and say clearly that people have had enough and that it understands the pressure people are under when putting diesel in the car or paying for insurance, tax or the VRT it is pushing up. Pushing up tolls on people is simply a step too far. The Minister should do the right thing, live up to the commitment he made and scrap these toll increases."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanna Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joanna Byrne The Government parties have made Drogheda a commuter town. To make matters worse for the thousands of daily commuters, the Government has made commuting more expensive. In the depths of a cost-of-living crisis, it has refused to go far enough in cutting excise on fuel and diesel, despite us in Sinn F\u00e9in proposing ways for this to be done. In January, commuters will face increased bus and train fares - happy new year, indeed. On top of that, the Government is putting up M1 toll costs locally for us by 10 cent per journey, which will mean the average daily commuter using the M1 will pay over \u20ac1,000 per year on that toll alone. For many, it could be close to \u20ac1,200. My opinion on the M1 toll road is the same as it has always been: there should be no toll road in Drogheda. The gold-plated public-private partnership contracts that permit these toll increases are a legacy of bad economic decisions made by successive Fianna F\u00e1il-led Administrations. The M1 Dundalk western bypass PPP contract was awarded to the Celtic Roads Group Dundalk Limited consortium in February 2004. It will run for a 30-year term. The scheme involved construction of an 11 km stretch of road forming part of the N1\/M1 national primary route in the vicinity of the town of Dundalk, County Louth. Dundalk got the road but Drogheda got the toll. I call on the Government not only to scrap any proposed toll increases but to review the PPP toll arrangement on the M1 and end that contract once and for all. Locals in Drogheda have had to live with severely congested roads as commuters divert into the town to avoid paying the toll. With every increase, that congestion gets worse. The slip road tolls are an additional tax on people living, working, shopping and visiting in Drogheda. We have congestion on roads, packed-out buses and trains and commuters are paying a fortune for the privilege of getting to work. At a time when my constituents face rising cost-of-living pressures in rent, energy, food and fuel, they do not need the Government to inflict another cost hike on them just for getting into and out of Drogheda for work, education or essential health services. It is nothing but another slap in the face to the people I represent. It is in the Minister's power to stop this proceeding in January. He has an opportunity to show the people he sees them and, more importantly, hears them. Scrap the toll hikes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Kenny.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Martin-Kenny.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Martin Kenny The issue of public-private partnerships goes back many years in this country. It has been one of the most inefficient and ineffective ways of providing public transport services, particularly road services, yet Government continues to go back to it. The reality is that we have a well-connected group of people on a gravy train and the public is paying for it through Government contracts that were lousy contracts from the very start. Now the Government will allow more increases on those tolls. The people who use the toll routes have little or no other option. I went to the airport last Saturday morning. I paid a toll going up the N4, another one going up the M50 and the same going back again, and it was like a traffic jam. That is the reality for the vast majority of people in the country, who have to use those roads through no fault of their own. Think of the haulage sector and those delivering goods to our shops and other premises. This is putting up the cost of delivery, which puts up the price of supplies the public has to buy. All of this is an inflationary gravy train that continues to make it less affordable for people to live. That is the reality most people are encountering as they go about their daily lives. The cost of fuel, housing, rent and everything is going up and up. All these small things make a big difference. When they are added together, they put huge pressure on ordinary working families who are struggling to survive. The Minister needs to ensure these toll increases do not go ahead, stand by what he said before the last election and recognise where people are. Ordinary workers and people doing their best to survive and manage in our economy need a break. The Minister needs to give them that break by ensuring these toll charges do not go ahead so we have a chance of seeing some relief for ordinary working people and those delivering goods the length and breadth of the country, whether hauliers or the small white vans that deliver goods to our shops. All of them are paying through the nose. At the end of the day, all of this comes back to the same thing: greasy deals done in the background with small groups of people who got a big payout and everybody else has to pay for it. It is time that stopped. It is time we recognised that that corrupt type of arrangement we had in this society needs to end. The first thing the Minister can do to end it is ensure these toll charges do not go ahead and then look at those contracts, take them apart and ensure we do not continue to see ordinary people paying for this corruption from the past."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ann Graves","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ann-Graves.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ann-Graves.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ann Graves Families, workers, students and pensioners all continue to be hit by the cost-of-living crisis. Their food, fuel and rent costs and all their bills have just spiralled out of control. Now the Government heaps further pain on the public by imposing transport fare increases from January. The Government is pickpocketing the public. It does not matter what you do. If you drive, you are hit with tolls and the soaring cost of fuel. If you use public transport, you are hit with fare increases. Sinn F\u00e9in is calling for an immediate stop to the fare hikes, free public transport for under-18s and a sustainable public transport system that is accessible and works for everyone. This is an opportunity for the Government to stand up for ordinary people by backing our motion. The private companies in charge of toll bridges are making record profits. There is no argument for increasing the tolls again in January. Meanwhile, in Dublin Fingal East, the Minister's constituents, as well as mine, are experiencing chaos on the roads. The R132 connectivity project has brought Swords and the surrounding areas to a complete standstill. I stood last night with residents outside Fingal County Council offices to protest the ongoing problems with the project. There is growing anger and frustration over the delivery of this project, particularly the issues with the newly constructed S3 junction and the impact the changes have had on road users. Only an independent assessment of the R132 project will give the public the answers they deserve and need. People deserve a clear, impartial assessment of whether the junction is functioning as intended, whether it is safe and suitable for all road users and what remedial works are required. A major publicly funded infrastructure project should be properly designed, properly delivered and fit for purpose. What we have is traffic chaos. Journeys of five minutes now take an hour. Emergency service response times are affected. Large vehicles, including buses and emergency vehicles, cannot navigate the turns. Public infrastructure should make journeys safer and more efficient, not create additional problems and uncertainty. There must be proper scrutiny and accountability. The people of Dublin Fingal East are struggling to pay their bills without increased costs in fares and tolls, while the Minister for Transport, who is also a local Minister, does not, as I understand it, pay tolls for his ministerial car. Perhaps the Minister will confirm that for the House. Sinn F\u00e9in calls on the Government to develop affordable alternatives and improve transport investment, not impose additional charges and chaos on road users. The Minister can and must scrap the toll increases."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Louise O'Reilly I represent the youngest constituency in the State, the constituency with the fastest-growing population. Unfortunately, our transport options are not growing in line with the population. The Minister will know that very well if he ever tries to get on a DART or a train, because they are already overcrowded by the time they reach my constituency. My constituency has not been well served by successive Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael Governments. This means that for work, for third level education and to go to hospital, we must leave the constituency. There is no primary care centre, no hospital in my area and no college or university. We remain underemployed. The people I represent have to leave in the morning. What do they do? They go for the train or the bus. What is the Government's answer to that? It is going to jack up the cost of public transport on 1 January by 15%, in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis. Public transport then becomes unaffordable or, indeed, people cannot get on one of the disappearing buses or find space on one of the overcrowded trains, so they get into their cars. No matter which way they drive, they are getting caught by the Government jacking up the cost of the tolls. If they turn to the right when they come out, they go up towards Drogheda and they are getting caught. They go across the M50 and they are getting caught. They go down the port tunnel and are getting caught. The Government is getting them in every way. I have written down that they are getting squeezed, but in fact they are getting screwed every which way by the Government. It is not funny. It really is not. It is very serious for people. They are facing very real choices in the cost-of-living crisis. Jesus Christ knows we would not expect much from the Government, but the very least a government could do, if it were listening in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis, is just not make things worse. People are already struggling to get to the end of the week. They got nothing in the budget, absolutely nothing. The vast majority of working people will either be status quo ante or worse off as a direct result. They are now facing the Government jacking up the cost of using the car and the cost of taking public transport from 1 January. Happy new year to them. What does the Minister want them to do? The Government has no policy that gives them the right to work from home. What does the Minister propose that they do? Where are they supposed to make the cuts? Perhaps the Minister will address that in his remarks."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister for Transport (Deputy Darragh O'Brien) I move amendment No. 1: To delete all words after \"D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann\" and substitute the following: \"notes that: \u2014 over the last 25 years, an extensive motorway network has been built across the State, development of which depended on the use of Public Private Partnerships (PPP); \u2014 toll revenue provides a significant contribution to the maintenance and improvement of the national road network, and it is expected that approximately \u20ac282 million in revenue will contribute to the Transport Infrastructure Ireland (TII) investment in the network in 2026; \u2014 the absence of toll revenue would leave a shortfall in maintenance and improvement budgets that would need to be met by the Exchequer, and by extension, the taxpayer; \u2014 the impact of inflation, driven by a number of factors, including supply chain disruptions resulting from the geopolitical situation, energy costs and labour shortages, has had a particular impact on the cost of civil works, such as pavement restoration and other measures to safeguard our national road network; \u2014 the setting of tolls is not at the discretion of the Minister for Transport, but is an annual process undertaken by TII, that takes place in accordance with formulas which are set out in the bye-laws for each toll scheme, with long-term contracts in place for the PPP schemes; \u2014 the Government has delivered one of the largest support packages in the European Union per head capita, amounting to over \u20ac1.7 billion in supports from March 2026 to June 2027, to assist households and businesses; \u2014 excise reductions have been extended in full until end of February 2027, thereby maintaining until then a 30 cent per litre reduction in diesel, and 25 cent per litre reduction in petrol; \u2014 the carbon tax increase on auto fuels due to take place on 14th October, 2026, has been deferred until 1st May, 2027; \u2014 motor tax rates have remained unchanged since January 2021, and motor tax receipts per vehicle are in fact in long term decline; \u2014 the Government has implemented significant reforms under the Action Plan for Insurance Reform - December 2020, including the establishment of the Office to Promote Competition in the Insurance Market (OPCIM), rebalancing the duty of care, enhanced data transparency from the National Claims Information Database (NCID), the reform of the Injuries Resolution Board (formerly PIAB), and the introduction of the Personal Injuries Guidelines, and these reforms have delivered measurable outcomes, including: \u2014 average motor insurance premiums falling by approximately 34 per cent since 2016; and \u2014 the share of personal injury costs in motor claims declining from 72 per cent in 2019, to 44 per cent in 2025; \u2014 the development of a more competitive insurance landscape in Ireland, through the OPCIM, has seen insurance now available in areas that previously faced serious difficulties, and the entry of additional supply from new insurers; \u2014 the Government is implementing further reforms to address the cost and supply of insurance under the Action Plan for Insurance Reform 2025-2029: A Stronger Market, A Fairer Future, focused on where the greatest impact on cost and availability can be achieved, including: \u2014 the introduction of a Transparency Code for the insurance industry; \u2014 accelerated publication of the NCID data and enhanced sectoral analysis; \u2014 strengthening of the Injuries Resolution Board; \u2014 reforms to address legal costs, including consideration of caps for certain injuries, a scale of legal fees, and bringing forward legislation to amend the Judicial Council Act 2019; and \u2014 expansion of the OPCIM, and streamlined authorisation for new market entrants, to deepen supply and attract new entrants into the insurance market; and affirms the Government's efforts to: \u2014 recognise the critical importance of transport investment, with almost one-in-four euros allocated as part of the National Development Plan review to be invested in transport; \u2014 increase investment in road networks and road safety to \u20ac9.7 billion during the 2026 to 2030 period, as part of the \u20ac24.3 billion to be allocated to transport under the Sectoral Investment Plan for Transport; \u2014 continue the construction of new national road projects, such as the N5 Ballaghaderreen to Scramoge, M28 Cork to Ringaskiddy and the Adare Bypass, and support the delivery of Critical Infrastructure with the Galway City Ring Road being one of the initial projects designated in July this year; \u2014 safeguard the protection and renewal of existing national roads, through pavement repair and renewal, safety improvements and climate adaptation; \u2014 support affordable public transport options through an increased allocation for 2027 of over \u20ac1 billion, allowing the expansion of bus services across the State; \u2014 address affordability through the support of free travel for all children up to the age of nine, and the Young Adult and Student Card for those aged 19-25; \u2014 deliver an improved public transport network through the investment of billions of euro in new infrastructure, such as BusConnects, MetroLink, DART+, Cork Area Commuter Rail, Luas Finglas and the reopening of the Western Rail Corridor; \u2014 support our road freight sector, through the Road Transporters Support Scheme and the Diesel Rebate Scheme; \u2014 fully understand the pressures on households that have arisen due to rising petrol and diesel costs, as a result of the conflict in the Middle East, and that it has continuously acted to allay these pressures; \u2014 remain committed to decarbonising our society, increasing investment in renewable energy sources; \u2014 recycle carbon tax revenues, to protect those most vulnerable to fuel poverty through targeted welfare interventions; and \u2014 prioritise and progress further insurance reform to enhance the affordability and availability of insurance, under the Programme for Government 2025 - Securing Ireland's Future, and building on the significant reforms to date.\". I thank the Deputies for giving me the opportunity to speak about the issue of transport, including toll charges. I am sure we can all agree on the importance of ensuring a safe and efficient network of national roads and motorways and that it is vital that the investment that has been made in that network in recent decades continue to be safeguarded. I also welcome the chance to discuss measures that are being undertaken to deliver radical improvements in public transport across the State. As such, I have tabled a counter-motion to the Sinn F\u00e9in motion on toll charges. Deputies might know that there are 11 toll roads in the State, ten of which are on the national road network. Of the ten toll roads on the national road network, two are publicly operated, namely the M50 and Dublin Tunnel. Revenue from these tolls is collected directly for TII by operating companies under contract with TII. These revenues are invested by TII in the operation and maintenance of the national road network. The other eight roads are public\u2013private partnership, PPP, roads, which were constructed and are now operated and maintained under long-term contracts with TII. Revenue generated by these roads is collected by the PPP companies and is used to repay loans arising from the construction of the roads and to fund ongoing operations and maintenance activities. In addition, some toll revenue generated on these roads passes to TII through revenue-sharing mechanisms. On the framework for setting tolls, toll by-laws for each individual road set out the basis for calculating maximum tolls each year. These are calculated for each vehicle category. TII calculates the maximum tolls for the Dublin Tunnel and the M50 and decides what actual tolls should apply. The PPP companies calculate the maximum tolls for the eight concession schemes and propose the actual tolls that should apply. The mechanism for these calculations is set out very clearly in the individual toll by-laws and is based on the consumer price index. Actual tolls charged may not exceed the calculated maximum toll for each scheme. There is no formal consultative role for me as Minister when it comes to tolls. It is a matter for TII. It is important to note that TII does not have the right to unilaterally change the basis on which PPP tolls are reviewed. The Irish national road network is now over 5,300 km, of which about 1,000 km is motorway. Since 2000, Dublin has been linked to Cork, Limerick, Galway and the Border with new motorways, augmented by high-quality dual carriageways. Substantial progress has been made in improving the quality of the road network in other parts of the State. It is an investment priority to ensure that the existing motorway and national road networks, which have been greatly enhanced over the past two decades, are maintained to a high level to ensure high-quality service, accessibility and connectivity for transport users. Many major new road developments in the last 25 years were funded through PPPs, meaning the funding for the building and maintenance of the roads came from both the Government and the private sector. These private sector businesses then charge tolls for the use of the roads they have helped to build. This has allowed for the rapid expansion of our motorway network. A number of these contracts include mechanisms under which, when traffic volumes do not reach a specified threshold level, money is paid by the State to the toll operators. However, it works in reverse. If traffic volumes exceed certain thresholds specified in the contract for each scheme, the excess toll revenue is returned from the toll operator to the State. That is a two-way financial contract approach that has been used in other sectors to encourage private sector infrastructure development. It is important to point out that the only scheme for which the State is currently making payments under this mechanism is Limerick Tunnel, for which approximately \u20ac5 million was paid in 2025. It should also be noted that in recent years inflation has had a particular impact on the construction sector, with the NTA's inflation bulletin indicating that the cost of major civil engineering projects has increased by approximately 54% since 2020. This is particularly felt in relation to products such as bitumen, which are used in road pavement repair, meaning that the cost of protection and renewal of the existing network has increased substantially. Significant investment has been made across Ireland in recent years to expand public transport services. Deputy O'Reilly will know that too. This includes the roll-out of BusConnects services, enhanced rural transport links through Local Link and increased rail and bus capacity. This investment will increase further over the period covered by the current national development plan. For example, MetroLink is starting. Enabling works will start next year. It is at approval gate 2 stage. There is \u20ac6 billion to be invested between now and the end of the decade, with major construction work starting in 2028. This will be transformational for the Dublin region, with 20,000 passengers per hour in each direction. It is the largest public transport project we will be embarking on. On Luas Finglas, which we will extend, we have brought that forward. It is approaching a critical milestone to get to approval gate 2. It is a project we expect to procure for next year, starting construction very shortly thereafter. In regard to the network redesign of BusConnects, we have seen that already. The first two are under construction. We have Liffey Valley into the city and Finglas-Ballymun into the city as well, with further roll-out of BusConnects right across the State. On the DART+ programme, work is already starting on that. We have started the enabling works on DART+ West. The northern rail line from Dublin to Drogheda, which Deputy O'Reilly spoke about, will see the first new battery electric DART+ fleet rolled out next year, in a boost for people in our area, increasing capacity there as well. The northern line will also see a new Dublin-Belfast Enterprise fleet rolled out at the end of the decade. Already this year, we have invested \u20ac140 million from the shared island fund, which has enabled us to bring DART+ Coastal North forward. The Cork commuter rail programme has finished phase 1 and we are embarking on phase 2. Phase 1 provided new platforms at Kent Station, signalling and double-tracking works, all of which are completed and being advanced. In relation to the all-island strategic rail review, we are progressing a series of passing loops and new platforms to add capacity and enhance resilience across the network. These works will be completed by the end of the decade in relation to bus and rail services across the State as well. As Deputies will know because I have said it publicly, next year will see one of the largest expansions of services right across the country, with 140 new services to be announced shortly across urban and rural rail, bus and Luas. We have also seen one of the first major recommendations of the rail review progressed, with the reinstatement of the western rail corridor from Claremorris to Athenry. This project will significantly enhance regional connectivity in the west. Taken together, this is a very ambitious programme, one that is absolutely needed. One in every \u20ac4 in the national development plan, NDP, is being invested in transport, or \u20ac24.25 billion between now and the end of the decade. Not to be too parochial, but Deputy Graves mentioned two things. One was in relation to tolls. I pay tolls when I drive my own car. If a Garda car drives on toll roads, it is, like other services, exempt from paying them and the Deputy knows that. I pay tolls myself. Let us be clear on that. Second, the scheme that has been referenced with regard to the R132 works is a local authority scheme that has been passed by the local authority. It is not part of the MetroLink enabling works. I saw a colleague of the Deputy's and mine making that pronouncement yesterday on social media - not the Deputy. However, we need to ensure that the major transport projects we are looking to deliver across road and rail are actually delivered and we are embarking on a significant phase. We are getting into construction on projects that have been spoken about for a long time. I campaigned on the basis that MetroLink would be delivered and I am going to deliver it. We are going to start it. On Luas Finglas - I see Deputy Ellis sitting beside the Deputy - I said we brought that forward, and further investment in our rail network right the way across the country, as I have outlined there. I refer to things like the delivery of the Galway ring road, which many opposed as well. Work will now be able to commence on that. These are welcome things. We have a growing population, with 1.5 million people more than we had in 1990, 1 million more cars than we had in 1990, and over 1 million more homes in this country as well. Yes, there are unquestionably areas where there is congestion, but the answer to that is not just more roads like the M50. The answer to that is to improve public transport. That is why every \u20ac1 in every \u20ac4 being invested under the national development plan is going into transport, with more than ever going into public transport services. Yes, they do need to improve - no one is disputing that - but they are in places. They will improve further through the delivery of very significant projects such as MetroLink. On Cork Luas, the preferred route is out. It is another scheme that we will commence as well, so the plan is there and is now in implementation. I mentioned DART+ West; I am also going to bring DART+ South West forward. I will be bringing both of those to Cabinet very shortly at approval gate 2. We have already started the compulsory purchase order, CPO, work on lands in that area, too. This is a major expansion of our DART network and that is where the answer is. Investment does need to still continue on our roads to make sure they are maintained to a safe standard, and that is what I intend to do."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Natasha Newsome Drennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan Motorways are not a luxury. They are essential public infrastructure. They get people to work, hospital appointments, everyday requirements and home to their families. Motorways keep the entire State moving. They are designed to make our daily lives easier. They should not be treated as a cash cow to drain more money from ordinary people and workers but, in January, that is exactly what the Minister will do, drain more money out of people's pockets. Fuel is already too high, running a car is already too expensive, but the Minister does not mind because the Government is raking in increased tax revenue. Increasing toll fees is nothing short of another tax on ordinary people, a tax that penalises workers, families and commuters who have no realistic alternative but to drive. Across Carlow and Kilkenny, since the Government came to power, it has dismantled and reduced people's access to public transport, forcing them back onto the roads. I am speaking about the Expressway route 4. It should be noted that the same Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael TDs who will be voting for these price hikes on ordinary people receive a general travel allowance as TDs to cover their travel. While Ministers are driven around in ministerial cars, never needing to put their hands in their pockets to get to work, the vast majority of people across Ireland do not have this luxury, yet the Minister has decided they ain't paying enough. It is important that we address the fact that many of these tolls are locked into public-private partnership deals that have operated with little to no transparency or accountability. Why is there such resistance to carrying out a value-for-money assessment on these deals? Taxpayers deserve to know whether these deals are delivering good value for the State or are simply another sweetheart deal for the private sector thanks to Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael. At a time when so many workers and families are struggling, the Government needs to do more than just listen. It needs to act."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Cullinane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy David Cullinane In the budget just gone, many of us on this side of the House stood up and called out the Government's so-called tax plan, where the majority of workers received \u20ac200 a year, or less than \u20ac5 a week. We said at the time, and we have been proved right, that this increase would be wiped out even before workers got it. Mortgages, rents, groceries, insurance, petrol, diesel and school transport are up. I received an email from a number of parents over the last number of days who are very concerned about the 100% increase they are now paying for school transport. Now it is tolls. There is no end to what this Government will do to increase the burden on people. The Government should be there to protect people during a cost-of-living crisis and in most instances I have referenced, it can do more. In fact, in some of these areas, it is the Government increasing the charges, whether it is school transport or tolls. I am from the Waterford constituency, as the Minister knows. If he comes across the toll bridge in Waterford and is going to Limerick, I ask him to take that drive and pass through all of the towns and villages he has to pass through to get to Limerick. We talk about regional connectivity. It is absolutely disgraceful, yet that road is not being properly funded. In fact, that scheme has been stalled, even though preferred routes are out. It is the same for the N25 to Cork. You get stuck in Killeagh, Castlemartyr and other towns and villages. We have been screaming at the Government to fund these schemes for years. The funding does not come, yet the Government is able to increase toll charges on people during a cost-of-living crisis. It is unacceptable. The Minister did not address those issues in his own contribution at all. He went all around the houses and talked about anything and everything but those toll increases. The reality is that he is justifying them."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell Let us be clear: the reason these toll hikes will raise more revenue is the same reason they are so unfair. Motorists will have no choice but to shoulder the increases. Working people will be forced to pay these higher tolls because for many, there is simply no alternative to driving. How is a nurse finishing a night shift, a carer travelling between houses or a tradesperson carrying tools supposed to get about their day without using a car? These toll hikes are taking money straight from the pockets of hard-pressed workers and funnelling it straight into Government coffers. It is disgraceful when the Taoiseach defends increases in public transport fares by claiming that the Government cannot fund everything forever. No doubt the same argument will be used when it comes to these, but when it comes to the wealthiest in society, the Government has no difficulty finding money indefinitely to fund sweetheart tax arrangements for vulture funds, the banks and big landlords. When the Government goes looking for money, does it ever ask itself about those particular sweetheart tax deals? Why do we not change them? No, of course it does not. It is a question that we raise all the time with the Minister. Instead, what the Government chooses to do tonight is to put more pressure on hardworking ordinary people. It is more pressure on people who already cannot make ends meet. It is more pressure on those people who have no other choice but to commute to work. What is the Government saying to them? It is saying tough luck and that they will have to shoulder these increases in the tolls. The people will have to shoulder these increases because the Government is not going to do anything about it, but it is okay, we will find the money when it comes to the vulture funds, the banks and the big developers. That is not on."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Johnny Mythen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Johnny-Mythen.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Johnny-Mythen.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Johnny Mythen It beggars belief that we must bring a motion like this forward tonight. Does this Government have any thought or concern for the people across my own county of Wexford and across the country who find themselves battling with this cost-of-living crisis, mostly caused by successive bad decisions by the Government? This is at a time when the ordinary person and families are struggling as they try to get by from week to week, and some day to day. The cost of living has put the people of Ireland to the pin of their collars. The cost of food, heating oil, electricity and other facets of life has increased. On top of all that, the cost of driving has more than doubled, with petrol and diesel prices well over the \u20ac2 mark. Did the Government ever consider the cause and effect this proposed toll increase will have? All goods are delivered by truck, van or rail to the internal market. If the Government increases the price of petrol and diesel and now toll prices, as sure as night follows day, the price of consumer and perishable goods will increase too, hitting ordinary people in the pocket and making it harder for SMEs and small farm producers to operate on already tight margins, while coping with the highest energy fuel rates in Europe. At the same time, the Government is taking it in on the tolls. Approximately \u20ac600,000 a day is made from the M50. When you add the Dublin Port tunnel, this figure goes to a whopping \u20ac680,000 per day. This does not include collecting 23% VAT on public-private partnership, PPP, road schemes, averaging \u20ac45,753 per day. Before the last general election, the Minister said there should be no toll increases. How can the Minister justify increasing these tolls? It is literally highway robbery. The only thing missing is a sign stating \"Stand and deliver\". Fine Gael and Fianna F\u00e1il always claim they are for business. These toll increases are anti-business, anti-family and will hit the working man and woman once again where it really hurts - in their pockets - while the Government and private contractors line their pockets."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dessie Ellis","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dessie-Ellis.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Dessie-Ellis.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Dessie Ellis Further toll increases from 1 January 2027 are another financial blow to motorists and households already struggling with the rising cost of living. At a time when families are dealing with increasing grocery bills, electricity and heating costs, insurance premiums, mortgage repayments, rent and childcare expenses, another increase in the cost of travelling to work places another financial burden on families. Thousands of workers depend on these roads every day to get to their jobs, transport their children, attend medical appointments and carry out essential daily activities. The cumulative effect of these increases over time in fuel and transport costs and toll charges have a negative impact, not just on the motorists or the commuter, but also on a family's household budget. Haulage businesses and those involved in deliveries, construction and distribution will be affected as well as operating costs increase. These costs will most likely be passed on to the consumer. The self-employed and small business owner will be particularly exposed as they have less ability to absorb such additional costs. Rural communities will be adversely affected as they have fewer alternatives with regard to public transport options. For many driving, it is often the only realistic way to get to work, access essential services or travel into the city, and will remain so until there is a vast improvement in public transport. We have been waiting for years for both the Luas Finglas and the MetroLink to be built. Until such services are provided, people will continue to rely on their cars for transport. The M50, which borders my constituency of Dublin North-West, on any given day, especially during peak road usage hours in the mornings and the evenings, looks more like a car park than a motorway. People are now expected to pay more for the privilege of sitting in their car on a motorway that cannot cope with the current numbers using it, resulting in increased vehicular queuing and longer trip times."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Erin McGreehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Erin McGreehan) Before I call Deputy Farrelly, I will ask the Minister to formally move his amendment."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Darragh O'Brien I moved it in my earlier contribution."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Aidan Farrelly I thank Sinn F\u00e9in for the opportunity to discuss this motion this evening. It is a motion that simply asks this Government to wake up and stop saying one thing while facilitating another. Toll increases, as we know, are the latest hit to land on commuters, businesses and families. The cost of groceries in Ireland is the third most expensive in the EU. We have the highest household electricity prices in the EU. We have the highest non-household electricity prices in the EU. We have experienced the highest volatility in home heating oil prices in the EU. The cost of rent in Dublin is the highest and most expensive of capital cities in the EU. We have among the highest childcare fees in the EU. What a record. Our T\u00e1naiste and Minister for Finance is trying desperately hard to distract us and distract the Irish people from turmoil within his own party and friction within his own coalition. He is trying a sleight of hand magic trick which takes our minds off the dismal performance of this Government on the cost of living, housing, healthcare, education, disability supports and public transport. Quite frankly, it is impossible to see where this Government is succeeding. The T\u00e1naiste is distracting us by kick-starting a debate which he knows has no policy future but turns the societal discourse away from him, away from industrial action in the public sector, work to rule in An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, upheaval in our courts and places scrutiny on those receiving long-term unemployment payments. He has form for this, of course. Not too long ago, he managed to blame asylum seekers for the housing crisis in this country. He has decided yet again to beat down on those who are marginalised. Ideology is a big word to play with in this House, but it matters. Just like the issue of our tolls and the issues facing our communities throughout the country, Government ideology believes that the private market will provide the solution and save the day. The private market owns the majority of the tolls in the country. When it comes to the toll increases coming in January, ordinary road users will be punished twice for every toll increase - once as they drive through the toll and second for the prices in the supermarket. TII has told us that the toll increases cannot go beyond inflation, but it is a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation because the Irish Road Haulage Association has stated increasing toll charges will just lead to an increase in food costs on our supermarket shelves. Essentially, the private companies and private international investor funds will reap the rewards of revenue collected from our tolls until the year 2052 in some cases, with a guarantee of being able to increase costs baked in annually. This Government yet again outsources responsibility. We pay for that privilege. The companies make the profits and we underwrite the risk. What matters is the cumulative effect on social policy and the Government's responsiveness to this. Quite simply, people are really struggling. The Minister does not need me to tell him that. People who work hard and reinforce the foundation of the social contract within which we all participate are barely getting by week to week. They are starting to believe that this Government is simply not listening to them and does not see them. It is too distracted and it is complacent. One must question where this ends. What is so frustrating are the levels of services the Government expects people to put up with while in tandem allowing the prices for such services to increase. The M50 is full. There are no more engineering solutions available. The people are paying more to join a bigger, longer queue. The Government has provided for a significant, and allegedly heavily politically influenced, roads budget for projects throughout this country. The reality we must all accept is that building more roads for more cars will not help us when it comes to journey times, climate ambition and the cost of living, yet this Government is stripping away the positives achieved by recent Governments when it comes to the cost of using public transport. Nothing is safe. You will get abuse from Simon Harris if you do not go to work. You will get punished financially by this Government if you do go to work. You will sit for hours if you want to drive. In some instances, you will do well to sit at all if you want to use public transport. No longer can this Government blame international events as the reason families must choose between heating and eating. The political choices have been made. The contractual obligations have been signed and the friends on the other side appeased. This Government is responsible."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Rory Hearne The issue we are facing here is one of a legacy of 30-plus years of Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael. I did my own PhD on the issue specifically of public-private partnerships many years ago and it was a critical analysis of this form of privatisation of our infrastructure. The Irish public are now paying the price of the legacy of Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael's policies of handing our public infrastructure over to private operators. It was neoliberal policies then and that has been continued. It was about privatising the delivery of public infrastructure because the State did not want to pay for it itself. It did not want to take the responsibility because those in power did not believe in the State delivering public infrastructure. While we see public transport across this country struggling, we still have the same public-private partnerships being used in the operation and development of the metro and Luas. We want to see public infrastructure but it needs to be public, otherwise we are repeating the same problems and issues. In my constituency, there are people looking for the Finglas Luas project to be developed as soon as possible. They want to see it happen. They want to see public transport but the Government is not doing everything it could be doing to progress routes like the Finglas Luas. There are also the issues with buses. There are major problems still with ghost buses or buses not turning up. As I have raised before with the Minister, there are issues with changes to routes that actually mean it is harder for people to use public transport. Specifically on this motion, I thank Sinn F\u00e9in for bringing it forward because it is very important. Right now, we have a cost-of-living crisis and people are literally struggling to cover the basics. According to a recent Eurobarometer poll, a third of Irish households said they had to cut back on their heating in the past year. We are literally seeing people in this country struggling to pay for food and heating. What is happening on our roads that we have paid for already in our taxes? The Irish public is being utterly fleeced by toll operators across this city and country. They are being fleeced by toll operators while they are struggling to cover the basic cost of living. Toll operators, and many of them multi-billion euro private equity and infrastructure corporations, are acting like modern highway robbery men by squeezing drivers who have no choice but to pay these tolls. The Irish public paid over half a billion euro in tolls last year to drive on the roads we have already paid for with our taxes. This is why the cost of living is so high, because Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael handed our roads over to these private toll operators to engage in what is extortion of the Irish public every day. The M50 is owned by the State now but it is operated by a private company owned by a massive French corporation whose operating profits on the M50 alone increased to \u20ac2 million last year. The operator of the M7-M8 in Portlaoise took in \u20ac24 million in tolls last year. It also owns the Dundalk and Waterford tolls. Who is it? A multi-billion euro Dutch corporation. The Limerick toll operator saw its revenue increase by 10% last year. Who is it? It is owned by an English and French infrastructure corporation. This is why Ireland is so bloody expensive. The cost of living here is one of the highest in Europe because of the price and profit-gouging, and in the case of the M50 it is by our own State and Government. It owns the M50. Why will it not stop the toll increases? It cannot say that the cost of living is out of its hands when it can actually stop those tolls being increased. It can stop the toll hikes and intervene. Why does it not stand up for the Irish public? Why does it not actually stop those toll increases when it could do it? The State owns the M50 toll. It is illogical to me that the Irish State would actually be enforcing higher costs on the public when it could be stopping it. People are really angry and frustrated about this because they do not understand why their own Government is facilitating them being charged even higher for the basics - for a toll on a road which the Irish taxpayer has paid for already. We have paid for it. Why is the Government facilitating that? Why is it pushing higher costs on the Irish public when it could control those costs? It is not true when Ministers get up and say that the cost of living is out of their hands and it is energy costs. The Government controls the tolls and the fares on public transport. It could control that. That is something it could do. What happened to the Fianna F\u00e1il that used to stand up for ordinary people in this country? It is not doing so any more. Now it is standing up for global corporations that are fleecing the Irish public and own the toll concessions on these roads that the Government handed over to them. What we are dealing with here is a legacy of 40 years of neoliberal policies by Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael, and the public are paying the price every day."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mark Wall I welcome the chance to speak on this motion. I thank Sinn F\u00e9in and Deputy Daly for addressing the issue and bringing forward the motion. I also welcome the fact that the Minister is here to listen to the debate. For the area that I represent, which is Kildare South, commuting is a way of life forced on families due to the lack of availability and high cost of housing, aligned with the continued rolling back on the advantages of working from home for so many. As a result, commuting on the M7, N7 and M9 has become a nightmare for workers. Workers are leaving their homes at 6 a.m. only to be stuck in traffic for anywhere up to two to three hours. It is a car park. Recently I spoke to a constituent who commutes from Rathangan in Kildare South to Dublin for work each day. That person spends six hours a day stuck in a car and for many commuters this is their daily reality. Many of those I have spoken to now leave their town in Kildare South an hour earlier just to beat the traffic. They arrive at their work an hour or more earlier than is needed and many use the extra hour to sleep in their cars. Such is the reality of their lives, and such is what they do before they go about their daily job. That is the mental hardship that affects their families more and more, and it is an issue on which I continue to get representations almost daily. Indeed, the Labour Party and I previously proposed a range of measures to address and help the ongoing traffic congestion issues but the Government simply rejected this. More worryingly, it rejected our possible solutions without offering any of its own or even agreeing to trial some of them or bring forward any of the suggestions. The simple fact is that many commuters in Kildare South have no option other than to take to their cars because of the underinvestment in the public transport system. Towns like Athy, Newbridge, Kildare town, Rathangan, Kilcullen and Monasterevin have become commuter towns. However, the transport infrastructure to meet the capacity and frequency requirements of these growing communities is not there, while public transport does not align to their work schedules. For example, the first train from my home town of Athy to Dublin departs at 6.41 a.m. each morning. That is too late for the many whose work demands that they have to arrive before 8 o'clock, leaving them with no option but to start up their cars and join the car park. Athy, like so many towns, has become a commuting town for the reasons I outlined earlier. In rural Ireland, rural Kildare and all these urban settings, people have no choice but to use their cars. That is why the toll hike is so hard on commuters. They simply do not have any alternative. They cannot make any adjustments to their commutes and in a cost-of-living crisis, it is unthinkable that Government would impose another increase on hard-pressed workers and families. Many commuters are also rightly confused about why this is happening now, especially when tolls are taking in so much money. Since 2023, the tolls have already taken in nearly \u20ac1.6 billion. TII has earned nearly \u20ac700,000 a day, on average, from the M50 and the Dublin Port tunnel. So many workers are today asking why they are being asked to pay more when the tolls are already taking in so much money. Many of the plans the Government is looking at to assist commuting lack the urgency and commitment needed. We still do not have a date for DART+ South West, albeit the Minister confirmed tonight that he will bring forward a plan to Cabinet shortly. That is very welcome. I have been asking about the priority bus lane on the N7. In fairness, the Minister brought forward the bus lane on the M4 but, according to the latest reply I have received for the N7, design might start next year. As I mentioned in the Topical Issues debate I had with the Department, the extra carriages that are needed for overcrowded trains are being promised, possibly, for the middle of next year. These overcrowded routes are the ones where we need to see most of those new carriages. However, there is no urgency being shown to address this commuting chaos. What is the Government going to do? It is going to increase the tolls and put more hardship on working families that they simply cannot take. It is time that commuters and workers got something back from this Government to help cushion the chaos. It is not an increase that is needed. It is time the Government reduced the fares on these routes and put some money back in the pockets of those who are keeping this country going day in, day out."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Eoghan Kenny I appreciate that Minister of State is not in the Department of Transport. I will put my concerns on the record in the hope that the Minister for Transport, despite having left the Chamber, will recognise them. I thank Deputy Pa Daly of Sinn F\u00e9in for bringing forward this motion. From 1 January, someone driving through the Fermoy toll road on the way to work and back five days a week will pay \u20ac24 a week in tolls alone. Over 48 working weeks, that is \u20ac1,152 before he or she puts a litre of diesel in his or her car. For that worker, the increase in 10 cent a crossing is another euro a week on top of the \u20ac23 he or she is already paying and it comes out of the same pay packet as groceries, fuel and insurance. Every increase can look small on its own. The worker has to pay them all. I support the call in this motion to stop the January toll increases. The Government should intervene and keep charges at their current rates. We talk about how much people in rural Ireland rely on their cars. We should also talk about people who rely on public transport because they do not have a car or cannot drive. A bus that arrives after someone's shift starts is no use to them. If the last bus leaves before they finish, they are left looking for a lift. This can decide whether someone takes up a job in the first place. I welcome BusConnects in Cork and I want to see a Luas line built but BusConnects is still unfinished and the Cork Luas line is taking far too long to move forward. I cannot keep telling my constituents to wait and see while Dublin marches ahead with new projects. I welcome investment in Dublin. It is the first time I have said that in this House. I expect the same urgency for Cork and communities across the country that have spent years waiting for better services. I acknowledge the very good work on the Cork commuter rail programme. The people delivering it deserve huge credit. We need to see that same urgency on buses and light rail so that someone coming in by train can get from the station to work, college or a hospital appointment without spending half the morning getting there. In the meantime, the Government has allowed public transport fares to increase as well. The Labour Party would reverse those increases and invest in services that people can rely on. In rural Cork, that means early buses, late buses and timetables to let someone make a connection without losing an hour of their day. The same urgency has to apply to the roads we need. The Government must get on with delivering the M20 motorway. Cork and Limerick are two of the largest cities in this country. A safe, reliable road between them should be a national priority. Along the N20, people sit in traffic on their way to work and watch heavy goods vehicles pass through their communities. Every year of delay is another year they, residents and businesses are asked to live with it. We need to see the Mallow relief road progressed in its own right. The Government must get the M20 moving and get the Mallow relief road moving alongside it. People in Mallow should see progress on both projects. The Government should get the design and planning work done, commit the funding and be ready to move to construction as soon as the approvals are in place. Once we build the M20, we want people to use it. We already have motorways and national roads that people can use without paying a toll. They connect communities and give drivers a route that takes them out of towns and villages. That is what the M20 should do too. We can see the issue in Fermoy and Rathcormac. The bypass was built to take through traffic out of those communities. Every toll increase gives drivers another reason to start using the old road again. If more traffic goes back through those towns and villages, the people living there will have to deal with it and the consequence of it as well. If we are building the M20 to take traffic off the N20, why would we charge people to use the new road and give them a reason to stay on the old one? We need to build the M20 between Cork and Limerick, and I am sure the Minister of State will agree with me on that, but we need to open it toll-free and keep it toll-free. On roads that are already tolled, we must examine a monthly cap for regular commuters and consider removing tolls when private operating contracts expire. We must stop the January increases, give Cork a clear timetable for completing BusConnects and moving the Luas forward, give people in Cork and Limerick a commitment that the M20 will be delivered as a priority and will be toll-free, and give people in my hometown, Mallow, an assurance that the Mallow relief road will progress alongside the M20. The people outside of Dublin have consistently spent too long waiting to be told what is coming. They deserve to see it delivered. I am looking through the different bullet points in the Minister's speech. Eight or nine of those 12 bullet points refer to projects that are ongoing within the capital. That is extraordinary. If I handed that to a constituent of mine, they would laugh at me and ask me what is happening in their community, constituency and city to help them with commuter chaos, with trying to get to work or a hospital appointment or trying to bring their child to school. I saw recently that after a Cork County Council municipal district meeting, some businesses in Mallow have considered not reopening after the Christmas period because they are sick of having to put up with traffic that is coming through the main street. We must get on with it and progress the building of critical infrastructure like the Cork to Limerick motorway and the Mallow relief road. We must also ensure that when we build roads like this they are used and =people do not have a reason to start using the old one again. We must also ensure that, once built, we keep the M20 toll-free."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Charles Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Charles-Ward.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Charles-Ward.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Charles Ward I thank Sinn F\u00e9in for bringing forward this motion on the cost of living and toll charges. In particular, I support the call for the Government to stop the proposed increases in January. Regarding the additional pressures that are being put on families in this country, we are in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis and households across this country are struggling to keep up with this never-ending rise in household bills. The rising costs of rent, energy, food and car insurance are putting massive strains on families. We are now in a unique position where everything is record high. We have record high energy arrears and record high energy costs. Motorists are already experiencing significant financial pressure due to the cost of fuel, motor insurance, and motor tax. In rural Ireland, the limited public transport that we have is a significant issue. For people living in rural Ireland and rural communities, travelling by car is not a luxury; it is simply a necessity because the services are not there. Many people have no alternative but to rely on their own vehicles to access employment, education, and essential services. The impact of the rising toll charges is particularly concerning for my constituents in Donegal who have to travel considerable distances by car to attend hospital appointments and access other essential services. That alone has caused hardship in Donegal because over the past year the cost-of-living crisis and the cost of fuel have meant that somebody travelling from Donegal has had to spend extra money they simply does not have to attend hospital appointments and pay toll charges. It is unacceptable that we are discriminated against but we are. The proposed increases would be yet an additional financial burden on people who have little or no choice but to make these journeys because they have to access these hospital appointments in Dublin. They have no choice but to travel by car because they live in rural communities where there is no bus service that can take them from their community straight to Dublin. They have to jump in a car and drive at an additional cost. Toll charges already present a considerable expense for rural road users who depend on national road networks to get to main cities and access essential services throughout. This is particularly difficult to justify when private toll operators have recorded millions of euro in profit, and yet the public does not benefit from this. The cost-of-living crisis, particularly the aspect of the ongoing fuel crisis, is having a real and immediate impact on families like mine, among other families in Donegal. Despite having two incomes, households are dependent on cars. They need to be able to access two cars because there is no proper infrastructure in place for travelling. Where there is a bus service in Donegal, we have town bus services that are barely hanging on. We are so far behind what is going on that we need as much infrastructure and help as there is. Letterkenny, for example, is a town that is in the midst of a traffic crisis. I encourage the Minister, whenever he gets the opportunity, to come to Letterkenny on a Friday and just look at the carnage there because it is unacceptable. It has been unacceptable for years. That town is suffering, and we need as much help as possible. For us to continue, this Government needs to realise it is getting it wrong and leaving rural Ireland behind."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Stanley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Brian Stanley I support the proposal to freeze toll charges. Toll charges are adding to the already high cost-of-living for people. As we have gone through a period of high inflation over the past five years, it has gone up at a rate we have not seen for a few decades, and that has piled pressure onto people and workers, people who are trying to get to work, among all the other costs they have. The problem is that come January, the Government is going to heap more costs on these people by increasing public transport costs. Up to 13,000 people commute from Laois every day, many of them by train or bus, and their charges are going to go up. Tolls are going to go up but some people have to drive. A lot of people drive to Dublin and have to use the M50 to get to work and hospital appointments. That cost is going to go up again. They already pay \u20ac7.80 for a round-trip and that is \u20ac39 a week in tolls alone to get through the M50. That is a huge burden on people. Before the election, I remind the Minister that the Government halted increases on tolls. I ask the Minister to look again at the increase in public transport fares in double digits of 15%. That is excessive by any standard, and it is going to put huge pressure on people who are commuting from Laois and other counties. It will discourage people from using public transport at a time when we are trying to get them to use it and reduce greenhouse gas emissions and congestion on the motorway. When going to Dublin, there was a one-hour rush hour in the morning and the same in the evening but it is now three or four hours at each end. That is what it is in the morning and evening. I ask the Minister to halt the 15% increase in bus fares, to revise that and not to go as far as 15%. I ask him to halt the planned toll increase. On energy, we had one of the cheapest electricity systems before it was \"liberalised\". That was the word used. In other words, that was before it was privatised and opened up to the private market. We now have the most expensive electricity system in Europe, according to Eurostat, and data centres are only paying almost half of what households and small businesses pay. The Government needs to change that. We have a situation where there are 230,000 households in electricity arrears alone. The Government should reduce the VAT on electricity charges for the winter period. It should bring in legislation or put in place measures to force data centres to pay the same as householders and level out the bills so that householders and small businesses are not paying as much. To move to health costs, 42,000 people, men, women and children in County Laois are covered by private health insurance. Another 38,000 have either a medical card or a GP visit card. Some 15,000 people have nothing at all. There is a huge cost for them if they need medical care or any kind of procedure. The average cost of a policy now is \u20ac1,950 per year. That is a huge burden. It is almost \u20ac40 a week for a pensioner and \u20ac80 a week for two pensioners and they often find when they go to use the private health insurance that it does not cover the procedure they are getting, so they have to pay anyway. We agreed on Sl\u00e1intecare almost ten years ago, in 2017. It was supposed to be implemented over a ten-year period but here we are nine years into it and we are not near the finish line in terms of getting a public system in place like other European countries which have had them since the Second World War. We need to move on that and modernise our health system to a universal health system."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Seamus Healy Families and workers are being pummelled by a cost-of-living crisis. We have sky-high rents, high energy costs, which are the highest in Europe, and food costs running at an increase of 5% per year. Car insurance is up, as is vehicle maintenance. Transport costs are to go up on 1 January by 15%, or in some cases, 30%, or 35%. Diesel costs a minimum of \u20ac2.07 a litre and petrol costs well over \u20ac2 per litre. We have half a million people in arrears on electricity and gas bills, and prices for goods and services over the past five years have increased by approximately 22%. Increased toll fees are another imposition on hard-pressed families, and a tax on workers going to work. For people in rural areas with little or no public transport, travelling by car is a necessity; not a matter of choice. They should not be penalised further. As we know, the Minister for Transport told us before the last general election that toll increases should not proceed but that was then, before the general election, and this is now. He is now playing a different tune. In constituencies like mine in south Tipperary, motorists are battered in every direction. Travel by car is a necessity, not a luxury. There is little or no public transport. If a person works in Abbott in Clonmel, Boston Scientific, Bulmers, Medite, Tipperary University Hospital, Tipperary County Council or in any of the general business areas, they must travel by car at a considerable cost. If a person attends third level in Clonmel in the Technical University of the Shannon, or goes shopping or for entertainment at Clonmel, they must drive a car. On the other hand, if a person has to leave the county for work, the situation is much worse. Some 17,900 people leave the county for work each day, and they also must drive. Workers from Carrick-on-Suir and Tipperary town are hugely impacted by outward journeys to work. Carrick-on-Suir, located on the Waterford-Kilkenny border, sees a substantial share of its workforce leave both town and county daily for Waterford. Tipperary town is particularly badly affected. Out of roughly 1,800 residents at work, only 40% work within the town. Some 60%, or 1,080, must commute to other Tipperary towns but mainly along the N24 to Limerick. These workers are already under severe financial pressure and cannot afford any more increases in travel-to-work costs. What these workers need is a reduction in fuel prices, a cap on fuel prices and a cap on EV charging costs, which have increased substantially in the past month. The ESB has increased its EV charging costs, and so has Energia. What these workers need most of all is local employment. The Industrial Development Authority and the Government need to provide new employment opportunities, job creation and investment in these towns. There is no need for these increases. Private toll companies have recorded millions of euro in after-tax profits, and those profits are growing all the time. The public-private partnership is a rip-off, and these tolls should be nationalised."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Collins I put out a statement on toll charges the other day. I said, \"Enough is enough.\" It is becoming beyond a bloody joke, to be honest with the Minister of State. It is hurting every day of the week the same people, mainly the working people because if you are not working, you do not have to commute, but if you are working, you do have to commute. People are being hit very hard. I cannot understand for the life of me a Government that is so tone deaf and out of touch. It does not realise that those are the same motorists putting \u20ac100 of petrol or diesel into their cars and paying \u20ac45 in tax. They have to pay this continuous tax to keep their motors. They pay for insurance, tax on their cars, tyres and repairs. It is just one thing on top of the other. I would love to calculate what it costs a motorist doing a daily run. I assure the Minister of State it is a phenomenal amount of money. It is hurting people very hard at a time when they cannot afford to put fuel in the car or home heating oil in their tanks, and we know why. It is a huge cost. At the same time, people are hit in the pocket when trying to buy groceries or pay their electricity bill. There are arrears on electricity bills. About 350,000 people cannot pay them at present and, again, that is hurting the working person. It is no wonder they cannot pay them because they are taxed to drain every bit of blood out of them. I cannot understand a Government that has no understanding of that and thinks that if it gives something in the budget, it has given enough, but then it takes it in so many different ways. The problem with a lot of these communities is that they have no rail connection. I have often heard about Connecting Ireland. Those words are the biggest farce ever because Connecting Ireland does not connect Ireland, has not connected Ireland and has failed miserably in its so-called achievements. I have to travel 80 km in my constituency before I can see rail. Astonishingly, in the 1850s there was rail within 3 km of me. Now I have to travel about 80 km, 85 km or 90 km to get to rail. That is not acceptable in this day and age. Solutions can be put forward. There are good operators out there, like West Cork Connect, that are willing to connect people with rail every morning, but for some reason the powers that be are doing everything in their power to make sure that does not happen. Again, I cannot understand that. It is another kick in the teeth to people who do not want to go through the toll bridges and are trying their best to find another way. They will not be allowed do that. The condition of the roads is beyond belief in some cases, as is the lack of funding. Where is the money going? That is what we would like to know. This is a cash cow of the highest order. Billions of euro are after being collected at tolls. Where is the money going? It is not going back into areas where it should go. I was screaming recently about passing bays on the N71. I do not know if the Minister of State has ever been down along there. Come into Bandon and west of Bandon into Clonakilty, drivers can come in behind a tractor for maybe 45 minutes, on a journey that should take 20 minutes. That tells us there is no movement in understanding the people's pain out there. That is the cause of accidents afterwards. From Clonakilty to Skibbereen, it is the same story. People get stuck behind a tractor or a lorry. They have to do their business, but there is no way for the ordinary person trying to get from A to B, in a bit of a hurry, and trying to stick within the speed limit. They are caught doing 20 km\/h or 25 km\/h for maybe 20 or 25 minutes and then they hit the pedal as hard as they can. It just shows the lack of vision. Passing bays are important. They have been promised. We might get them in 120 or 130 years. If we live like Methuselah, we might get the bypasses. Two have been promised in Bandon but not delivered. There is an announcement every year. We will see what will happen. We will have another announcement soon about Inishannon, a Clonakilty bypass or a Bantry bypass. I cannot understand for the life of me why nothing can be delivered. Nobody wants to hear about another report. They all want to hear when a bucket will hit the ground. That is all they want to know and that is all they want delivered. No more rubbish reports. That is kicking the can down the road and a handy way to say, \"Listen, we are doing something\", but the people are not fools. The people the Government is hurting hardest are the hauliers. They are in dire despair and they tell me that every day of the week. They just do not know where they will be. A gentleman I met in Dunmanway recently said to me, \"Michael, I am afraid to turn the lorry on.\" That tells you how far it has gone. I just had to take him at face value. He was a cattle haulier and he told me, \"It is frightening.\" As I said, where is the money going to? I am on the transport committee and I listened to the Minister say recently that for greenways there was going to be \u20ac360 million. Is that where the money is going - \u20ac360 million for, in most cases, greenways, walkways and cycleways that railroad through people's farms? I see the Southern Star picked up on one of my stories - mind you, it never acknowledges me - in the D\u00e1il. It was about Tim O'Leary's farm in Ballinascarthy. Imagine a farmer being told, \"We will shove your old sheds and parlour aside and take the walkway through it.\" Another gentleman told me the other day that he explained to a lady, \"You cannot take the walkway through where you have planned because that is going to be a graveyard.\" To hell with that. Sure they can all be cremated. God almighty, the ignorance that is out there. They can use the term CPO and they are using State funding of \u20ac360 million, which is being wasted, instead of taking away the ditch, widening the road and taking the roadways down there. This is not acceptable. Talking about EV chargers, we need to look at the ones out the back here because they do not work most times."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Nicholas Gogarty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul Nicholas Gogarty I support the motion, which recognises the huge additional costs facing people trying to get to and from work. There are a few things to talk about in relation to tolls. First, there is a certain logic to putting in a toll so people have to pay for the construction costs over a period. It also makes a certain logical sense that the people using the toll road most should be the ones who pay for it the most. I am in agreement with the concept, but once the toll roads are built and the money is going into the Government coffers, it is a different question. It is about whether the toll road is actually helping people or whether it is just a money-making exercise. Is it encouraging people to rat-run through different communities? I have mentioned this before in relation to my constituency of Dublin Mid-West, where the M50 is routinely congested so people will rat-run through Lucan village to go to Blanchardstown, Clonee, Dunshaughlin or Navan. They will face the same congestion going that way - they queue for hours - but, crucially, they avoid paying the toll. If the toll on the M50 were got rid of or even staggered along the way, we would find people would more likely use the main route. As an aside, the M50 is no longer a Cork-to-Belfast route; it is an internal ring road and should be dealt with as such. In road terms, we need a motorway west of Leixlip or west of Maynooth that bypasses the urban area totally. That is coming from someone with a green background who thinks we need to massively invest in public transport and alternatives to people driving. There is such a thing as toll avoidance or traffic diversion or leakage. It has been documented by State bodies like Transport Infrastructure Ireland, which has looked at this in internal assessments. It has planned for multi-point tolling in the past. It has done studies on it which acknowledge that people are trying to avoid the tolls by exiting at one gantry and then going back in further down the road. We have had research from Europe that shows that on the Euroroutes drivers, especially HGV operators, will recalculate routes to avoid the tolled sections. While hauliers will obviously make a financial saving from that, it comes at the cost of congestion in towns around Europe. That also happens in Ireland. This goes back to 2011 and the AA Ireland commuter behaviour survey. That was one of the biggest studies on behaviour. It involved 13,000 drivers and tried to map behavioural responses to road tolls. The study established that 60% to 70% of Irish motorists said they would change their travel routes and use secondary roads if tolls were increased or if new toll points were introduced on their regular commute. Basically, tolls have an adverse effect on local traffic management and increase congestion. County Cork was mentioned. Fermoy is a case in point. You would think the M8 would help avoid congestion but, as a result of the tolls, people are still clogging up Fermoy because they are trying to avoid the tolls. There is a happy medium to be found. We should fund the toll roads when they are being built and we should make a degree of contribution when those toll roads are being used by more people. However, there are cases where the tolls absolutely need to be abolished at this stage. I would include the M50 and some of the older toll roads on national routes in that category. Some constituents have called for something that I have heard mentioned here during this debate, namely, a cap on tolls for commuters. I am a member of the Committee on Enterprise, Tourism and Employment, which has heard stories of how difficult it is for young people to get the experience needed to get a full-time job. Often they are trying to work in jobs that are not related to their master's or other degree. They are being discouraged by the fact that it is going to take them a hell of a lot of money to get from A to B and that they will have to travel a long distance. They are trying to make ends meet. They realise that affording a house is a good few years ahead of them. If we are trying to help hard-pressed people, even if the Minister of State does not support this motion, there should at least be a cap on tolls for people who commute. They are not commuting because they choose to. They are not commuting to speed past the little towns and villages around Ireland and gain an advantage over other people. They have no choice but to make that commute because they cannot get on the train or because the bus takes too long or does not get them where they want to go. Even when sitting in congestion for an hour or an hour and a half, the quickest way is to take their cars. That is a sad reality of Irish life. You cannot be expected to commute for two hours a day each way to keep a job. We need to think about the small people who are suffering right now. The tolls are just another unnecessary penalty on people who are trying to better themselves. We need to look at cutting these types of costs."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Carol Nolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Carol Nolan What makes the promised toll increases particularly frustrating is the way they are being imposed on people who are already contributing. Indeed, they are the most heavily taxed transport users in Europe. Motorists pay fuel tax, carbon tax, VAT, motor tax, vehicle registration tax and a range of other transport-related charges, which generate billions of euro annually for the State. Despite these enormous contributions, the answer always seems to be the same, that they should pay more and that we should tax out of existence those who are contributing That seems to be the approach. People are disillusioned. These are the people who get up early in the morning. We are talking about the small businesses, the companies that generate employment in rural Ireland. They are the ones unfairly carrying this burden. This burden is particularly felt in counties like my own county of Offaly and across the midlands. Earlier this year, figures released to me by Transport Infrastructure Ireland showed that a staggering \u20ac23.7 million was collected at the M7-M8 Portlaoise plaza in 2025 alone. That excludes VAT. That is just one toll plaza. In one year, \u20ac23.7 million was taken from motorists, commuters, farmers, small businesses, construction companies and hauliers travelling through the midlands. It is unfair and needs to be looked at. A hands-off approach or saying that it is a matter for TII is just not good enough. The Government must send a message. We need to support our businesses and companies, which create a lot of employment, and those who get up early every morning, commute and ask for nothing but to be treated fairly. That has to be the case. That figure of \u20ac23.7 million deserves to be reflected upon. It represents farmers, tradespeople, families and hauliers who are simply trying to get from A to B. Despite collecting almost \u20ac24 million in a single year from that location in Portlaoise alone, we are now told that toll charges should rise again. That is unacceptable. As I said earlier, the Government's position has always been that this is a matter for TII. People are fed up with the buck being passed. A message must be sent to Transport Infrastructure Ireland that further toll increases are not acceptable. People are being taxed out of existence. The USC was meant to be a temporary measure. People are still paying it. It is unfair to continue to tax people to the extent we are."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Healy-Rae As legislators, there is an onus on all of us to be responsible to the people who are working hard. For people who are on the road every day and who are paying tolls and tariffs, those charges are now a serious expense. Motorists who drive ordinarily sized cars feel the pinch, but if you are driving a larger van or an articulated vehicle, the cost is enormous. These people are on the road all day every day. It puts an additional financial burden and hardship on the companies that run those individual vehicles. We have to look at this in an holistic and serious way. Along with Deputy Nolan, I had the privilege of attending the Irish Road Haulage Association's conference, where we heard at first hand the difficulties, trials and tribulations of these hard-working companies. We are an island nation. Who hauls everything that lands in a shop throughout this country? It is hauliers. They are the people. They have the additional cost of fuel but also tax, including road tax, insurance and tires. Everything is now so expensive. There are also the wages. It is all an expense and it all presents difficulties in trying to keep those wheels rolling. The Government and all of us have an onus not just to say that it is a matter for TII and to leave it at it. We have to intervene. We have to be able to stand up for these people. That is our job. Our job is to stand here, to try to make our voices heard and to try to get a consensus that the proper thing to do is to really look at this. Of course, we live in the real world. We know that our motorways need maintenance and that there are costs involved. We see it ourselves every day with the maintenance that goes on late at night. We see it happening in the cutting at the edge of the road and all of the work that goes on every day. Having said that, you have to be fair to motorists, the people who have to travel the roads every day. They are not travelling the roads for the fun of it. They are going from A to B to work. That is something we spoke about here earlier and that we should speak about a lot more. We must try to reduce those costs and to stop the continuous spiral. If the Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach had a graphic in front of him showing the increasing costs, it would actually be frightening. I do not want to eat into anybody else's time."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Cahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Cahill We have a very real cost-of-living crisis. We are experiencing rising costs in transport, transport services, electricity, home heating oil, gas, groceries, eating out and going for a couple of drinks. Our people are struggling. This is an everyday occurrence now. In many cases, people are stretched to their limits. There is a very real and huge cost-of-living crisis. In that context the increased toll charges are being noticed by the general public. People are not fools. Public-private partnerships and increased charges must be controlled. We need to look at price gouging. What is happening in our little country beggars belief. To build a modest room onto a house, such as an en suite bedroom, you need at least \u20ac30,000. Labour costs have increased significantly, and especially during the past three to four years. Buying anything today has got to the stage of almost guessing a price, and this is at the expense of every family and household. The general public is wising up to what is happening. People see it every day. Pricing is being abused, and \"abused\" is the correct word. The woman of the household is seeing it in particular because, in most households, it is she who does the shopping. We have to bring a halt to this serious increase in prices right across the board. It is as simple as that. I would like to see action from the Government and the Minister in this area. I welcome the \u20ac500 disability cost-of-living payment in the recent budget. We also need to introduce a \u20ac500 tax credit for disabled workers. They were left out of this budget, as were those who cannot avail of the \u20ac500 disability cost-of-living payment. I would like to see progress on that. It is only fair and right that we look after the working disabled and those who are not able to access the \u20ac500."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Barry Heneghan Thousands of motorists in my constituency have consistently raised two issues with me, and they have been calling my office, especially given the debate tonight. The first is the M50, which others have mentioned. One of the best ideas floated around the House, and something we should definitely look at, is a weekly commuter toll cap, with discounts for people earning under a certain amount or, in particular, for critical workers such as doctors, nurses, SNAs and teachers. With this increase, they could be paying hundreds, if not thousands, of euro a year from their hard-earned money. It does not make sense. It is as if we are penalising people who have to work. I had to use the M50 for my previous job. People are paying every single day to sit in traffic. If the increase could be justified with a guaranteed plan for additional lanes or traffic easing, then maybe it could increase, but that has not been discussed at all. Constituents of mine who are not as savvy about technology as others drive on the M50. They struggle with eFlow and with setting up their accounts, and some of them have lost their accounts, misplaced passwords or got new vehicles. They ask why, when they pay their penalty, they are not automatically set up again by eFlow. A child might be sick, or they might be busy at work, and they might forget to pay by 8 o'clock the next day. We are all very busy. We understand how it works. They should automatically be set up again. With my last minute, I want to raise the East Link. It opened in 1984. The original private toll agreement ended in 2015, over a decade ago. Why are motorists in my constituency and on the south side stopping at toll booths? We built this connecting bridge to ease traffic in the city but today motorists still have to slow down and still have to pay. It makes no sense. How much time is being lost? What is the impact on congestion in Dublin? What would it cost to replace the booths with barrier-free tolling? I worked on this when I was a councillor, with some of the councillors who are in the Gallery today. If we removed the M50 toll barriers to improve traffic flow, why can we not do the same on the East Link? How can a toll increase be justified when we need to sort out the M50 car park and the car park on the quays? I am not asking for roads to be maintained for free. I understand that the money has to come from somewhere, but we need to state clearly where the money is being spent and where it is flowing and let the Irish people know that the purpose of transport infrastructure should be to keep people moving, not to keep them queuing."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niall Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niall-Collins.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Niall-Collins.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine (Deputy Niall Collins) I thank Deputies for their contributions, for the points they have raised and for bringing these important topics to the House. As set out in the remarks of the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, and in the amendment, the Government is committed to ensuring the continued improvement and maintenance of our national road network. This requires the ongoing investment of Exchequer funding, supplemented by toll revenue. The Minister also referred to the extensive investment taking place in our public transport system to ensure that more citizens have affordable alternatives to the private car. This investment is advancing projects in urban areas, such as MetroLink and Cork commuter rail, as well as in rural areas, such as rural bus services and the western rail corridor. I take the opportunity to highlight some of the continuing investment taking place on our national road network as well as the measures the Government is taking on the affordability of transport. Over the past 25 years, the Government has invested heavily in our national road network and an extensive motorway system is now in place. The motorway network has expanded almost tenfold since 2000. The programme for Government includes commitments to increased funding for new roads and for the protection and renewal of the existing road network. It is the Government's intention, as part of the \u20ac24.3 billion to be allocated to transport under the sectoral investment plan for transport, to increase investment in road networks and road safety to \u20ac9.7 billion in the period 2026 to 2030. In 2026, approximately \u20ac800 million in Exchequer funding has been allocated for national roads. This has enabled the continued construction of the N5 Ballaghaderreen to Scramoge, M28 Cork to Ringaskiddy and Adare bypass projects. This funding has also allowed multiple major projects at an earlier stage of the project life cycle to progress. They include the Galway city ring road, which is the first road project in the State to be designated as critical infrastructure. Other projects, such as the Limerick to Foynes project, the N\/M20 Cork to Limerick project, the Donegal TEN-T project and the Slane bypass, have also progressed this year. Exchequer funding has also been used to invest in the protection and renewal of the existing national road network. This investment, which is supplemented by toll revenue, helps to ensure that our road infrastructure is kept to a high standard and that safety levels on the network can be improved. While final allocations for 2027 have not yet been announced, national road projects listed in the NDP and the sectoral investment plan for transport will continue to progress in 2027. It is anticipated that the Adare bypass and the N5 Ballaghaderreen to Scramoge projects will be completed in 2027. Overall, the funding of \u20ac9.7 billion announced for road networks and road safety for the period 2026 to 2030 represents a significant increase on that provided in the first half of the decade and will allow more projects to proceed. In budget 2026, \u20ac940 million was secured for the public service obligation, a significant 43% uplift on the 2025 allocation. This allocation has ensured that existing public transport services can operate reliably and sustainably throughout the year in the face of growing passenger demand and increased operational costs. It has also allowed for the continued delivery of targeted fare initiatives, including free travel for all children up to the age of nine and the young adult card for those aged 19 to 25, as part of the NTA's national fares strategy. In budget 2027, over \u20ac1 billion has been allocated to public service obligation, PSO, services across the bus, light rail and heavy rail networks. This is a record investment in the PSO funding allocation and supports the continued expansion and enhancement of our public transport network, with approximately 140 new and enhanced services in the planning pipeline for 2027 across flagship programmes such as Connecting Ireland, BusConnects and new town services. The 2027 allocation also prioritises the advancement of ongoing programmes and commitments in line with operational readiness and resource availability. In recognition of its essential role in Ireland's supply chains, the Government unveiled a package of supports for the road transport sector in the face of escalating fuel costs in April. Central to these supports is the \u20ac120 million road transporters support scheme, RTSS, which complements reductions in the excise rates, the NORA levy and the increased rebate rate allowed under the diesel rebate scheme. The RTSS opened for applications in May 2026 and provides financial support to licensed hauliers, the own-account sector and commercial coach operators to help meet the challenges posed by increased fuel costs arising from the war in the Middle East. More than 4,400 applications were received during the application window. Additionally, approximately 120 late application requests were received during a dedicated late application window between Monday, 20 July and Friday, 24 July 2026. An appeals portal was provided from noon on Wednesday, 21 October until noon on Friday, 6 November to allow applicants who had been refused support for one or more vehicles to request a review of that decision. Approximately \u20ac77 million has been paid out to date under the scheme, with further payments anticipated during the ongoing appeals procedure. Last month, Ministers at the Department of Transport secured Cabinet approval to extend payments under the RTSS for a further two months, for September and October. Funding of \u20ac73 million has been allocated to continue to assist haulage and passenger operators with high diesel prices. Applicants do not need to reapply for these additional payments. They will be issued directly to applicants once the appeals process is complete. In addition to the RTSS, the diesel rebate scheme has been in place since 2013 and remains available to licensed haulage operators in respect of vehicles over 7.5 tonnes and diesel prices over \u20ac1.43, including VAT. An enhanced rebate of 12 cent per litre is being provided until the end of December. The Government has delivered one of the largest support packages in the EU per capita , amounting to over \u20ac1.7 billion in supports from March 2026 to June 2027 to assist households and businesses. Excise reductions have been extended in full until February 2027, thereby maintaining until then a 30 cent per litre reduction in diesel and a 25 cent per litre reduction in petrol. The carbon tax increase on auto fuels due to take place on 14 October 2026 has been deferred until 1 May 2027. I thank the Deputies for raising these matters and initiating this discussion. However, for the reasons that the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, and I have outlined, the Government is opposing this motion. The Government wishes to see the national road network, into which so much public investment has been made in recent decades, safeguarded for future generations. Toll revenue is an essential component in achieving this. However, we are mindful of the many cost-of-living pressures that households and businesses face. Therefore, we have continued to increase investment in public transport across Ireland and to provide targeted financial measures to those most impacted."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Johnny Guirke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Johnny-Guirke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Johnny-Guirke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Johnny Guirke Coming up to Christmas, many families are struggling with the cost of living. Disposable income is not available in the way it used to be and increased bills continue to come through the doors. The Government, supported by its Independents, needs to drop the spin and look at the reality: Ireland is officially one of the most expensive countries in Europe for energy, housing, transport and electricity. Ireland has the third-highest cost in Europe for everyday groceries. That is not an accident. It is a direct outcome of political choices made by Fianna F\u00e1il, Fine Gael and the Independents in government. They are the architects of this cost-of-living crisis. Every morning, long before the sun rises, the hard-working people of County Meath are already on the move. Our tradespeople, nurses, teachers, SNAs, public sector workers and factory workers, the very people who keep this country running, are hitting the roads to provide for their families. Whether they are driving down the M3 or the M4 or are looking at gridlock on the M50, commuters from Meath have been hit from every single angle. They face relentless toll increases and punishing fuel costs. If they try to do what this Government asks and choose public transport, they are met with ever-increasing fares. How can this Government, in good conscience, tell people to give up their cars when it is simultaneously pricing them out of every single option to get to work? They get up early, they work all day and they do everything right. What do they get for it? Many people are struggling to survive. Elderly people are lying in bed under two coats, terrified to turn the heating on. Parents are walking through supermarket aisles putting basic food items back on the shelves because the total at the till climbs every week. What is this Government's grand strategy? It is to claim it is monitoring the situation. Sinn F\u00e9in has put forward solutions time and again, yet the Government simply does not listen and does not care. It is simply pricing people away from public transport and making it unaffordable to travel to work. The cost-of-living crisis is affecting many people. The Government now has an opportunity to support Sinn F\u00e9in's motion and prevent the toll and public transport increases."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maurice Quinlivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Maurice Quinlivan These planned toll increases must not go ahead. People are already under enormous pressure from the surging cost of petrol and diesel. The Government's decision to add on yet another cost is a slap in the face for many of them. During a cost-of-living crisis, the Government seems determined to make things a bit more difficult for people. Previous toll hikes have been suspended and there is absolutely no reason why they cannot be suspended again. From January 2027, users of the Limerick Tunnel will pay \u20ac2.40. In 2021, people paid \u20ac1.90, so the costs facing people have increased. The Government has opted time and again to impose further costs on them. Figures from TII show that taxpayers have paid \u20ac74.5 million to date to a private operator over a 14-year period for the Limerick Tunnel. In 2024, \u20ac5.7 million was paid in fees. That is \u20ac110,000 per week to a private operator. These moneys were paid because of lower-than-expected traffic volumes in Limerick Tunnel. Taxpayers, in addition to paying the toll, are being forced to compensate the private toll road company for the low number of vehicles using the tunnel. The PPP contracts that permit this extremely generous traffic guarantee are a legacy of bad economic choices and decisions made by successive Fianna F\u00e1il-led Administrations in the early 2000s. These road toll contracts represent poor planning, a total lack of foresight and dreadful value for money for taxpayers. The tunnel, while it is a wonderful piece of infrastructure, is far too close to the city centre and the toll is too high for many motorists to allow it to reach its maximum potential of removing traffic from the streets of Limerick city. It was a poor deal and now costs taxpayers millions of euro in penalties every year. The least the Government can do now is stop the increases for 2027."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donna McGettigan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donna-McGettigan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Donna-McGettigan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Donna McGettigan Once again, we see workers, families and ordinary commuters being forced to pay the price for the Government's failure to protect them. This time, it is through another hike in toll charges. For many people in County Clare, these tolls are not optional; they are unavoidable. People travelling to work, parents bringing children where they need to go and families travelling to hospital have little or no realistic alternative. What is the Government doing but piling more pressure on them? People are already struggling with the cost-of-living crisis. Petrol and diesel prices are putting enormous pressure on household budgets; yet, instead of providing some relief, the Government is handing commuters another increase, another kick in the teeth. This is not about keeping pace with inflation. The operating profits from Limerick Tunnel increased by 10% in 2024 following previous toll increases, with almost \u20ac12 million in profits being generated. Who exactly are these increases benefiting? It certainly is not ordinary people. They will have to pay more to sit longer in congestion and they have no choice but to use these roads. Penalising people with higher costs will not cut congestion; it will only give bigger profits to the operators of gold-plated PPP contracts. The reality is that years of failure to deliver an adequate public transport system in Clare have left people dependent on their cars, and they are now paying a tax upon a tax upon a tax. They are being penalised because the Government has failed to provide alternatives. I find it particularly galling to hear Ministers talk about listening to communities while at the same time introducing policies that make life harder for those very communities, giving big profits to PPPs and big bonuses to CEOs while people are struggling. What about the Minister during the election? He said the increases should be scrapped and were too high. What happened? Why is he now pushing for these hikes? Previous toll increases have been paused and there is no reason for the Minister not to do so again. Stand by election commitments, do not make ordinary workers and families pay another price for this Government's failure, review the tolling policy and the PPP policy and stop these toll hikes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pa Daly TII has the idea, and the Government is going along with it, to give extra money to operators of the Fermoy scheme, income from which has gone up from \u20ac11.9 million in 2015 to \u20ac18.9 million in 2024; to the Dundalk scheme, which has increased from \u20ac23.5 million to over \u20ac40 million; to the Limerick scheme, which has increased from \u20ac12.5 to \u20ac23.9 million; and to the Waterford scheme, which has gone from \u20ac5.4 million to \u20ac11.4 million. Is it any wonder, when this and the previous Government have abolished town councils, denuded water services of staff, privatised bin collections, outsourced housing and put no State involvement or investment into energy? In the past few years, there has been more poor planning and governance. Commuters pay the extra amount but they see that battery-operated trains are not being used. We see a rail line to Foynes being built that will never take passengers, a shrivelling number of new bus services and increasing public transport fares across the State. We reject the statistics the Government amendment contains about the cost of insurance having decreased since 2016 because if you look at 2014 figures, it has increased by almost 50%. I reject what it says about supporting affordable public transport options. In fact, public transport fares are being increased by 15%. I reject what it says about decarbonising society when we see no State involvement in and no significant advancement towards renewable energy, offshore wind or solar. The Government has a choice. It should stop these toll hikes, order a review of tolling policy and examine relief schemes for regular commuters. Workers and families have paid enough and they have had enough. Motorists are not a cash cow. Scrap the toll hikes and support this motion."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig O'Sullivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-O'Sullivan.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-O'Sullivan.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy P\u00e1draig O'Sullivan) Beidh an v\u00f3ta againn o\u00edche am\u00e1rach. In accordance with Standing Order 85(2), the division is postponed until the weekly division time on Wednesday, 11 November 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Toll Charges and the Cost of Living: Motion [Private Members]"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_23","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":false,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_23","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_24","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Industrial Relations","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_23","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_23","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_24","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_24.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh It is now a year since the Government published the action plan to promote collective bargaining and workers have seen precious little action in that time."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment (Deputy Alan Dillon) I thank the Deputy for her question. Collective bargaining coverage in Ireland is estimated at 33% to 34% of employees, drawing on figures informed by survey-based evidence and research sources, including the workplace industrial relations survey and the OECD ICTWSS database, together with analysis by Eurofound and other national and international sources. Ireland's Action Plan to Promote Collective Bargaining 2026-2030 includes measures to close data gaps and provide reliable and up-to-date evidence on collective bargaining coverage. The Department is working with the Central Statistics Office, ICTU, IBEC and research bodies to develop appropriate metrics and improve the quality and regularity of available data. The action plan's content was reviewed by the EU in October. The plan is being actively implemented in line with the social partners. Regular progress reports on the suite of actions are regularly provided. The plan provides for a mid-term review in 2028. Implementation of the plan is progressing across a range of measures. Key developments in 2026 include: seven dedicated meetings under the Labour Employer Economic Forum, LEEF, umbrella between Department officials, ICTU and IBEC to support and monitor the implementation of the action plan; quarterly engagements between my Department, the Workplace Relations Commission and the Labour Court to align priorities and progress relevant actions; a new award category celebrating excellence in collective bargaining practices launched in August; and progressing the research commitments with a view to developing and collating more robust and representative data on collective bargaining coverage during 2027 in advance of Ireland\u2019s next reporting obligations to the European Commission in 2028."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh I do not see where the action is being implemented. As the Minister of State said, there are a lot of meetings and other things but I cannot see the working out of that. Unions and workers are still concerned the plan was little more than a box-ticking exercise to comply with that EU directive on adequate minimum wages. A year on, those concerns seem to be well-founded. I am still trying to find out what measurable progress has been made. How many more workers are covered by collective bargaining arrangements as a direct result of this plan? The Government\u2019s action plan acknowledges the enormous benefits of collective bargaining: better pay, improved working conditions, addressing the power imbalance between workers and employers, increased productivity and better work-life balance. Yet, a year after it was published, we have seen little meaningful action to deliver those benefits for workers. Ireland remains among the worst performers in the EU when it comes to collective bargaining coverage. That is not something we should accept."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Dillon Ireland continues to have a robust industrial relations framework. There is active engagement with employers and workers\u2019 representatives across multiple structures. Through this action plan, we are taking a practical approach. That involves, first, improving the evidence and data. We want to continue to strengthen social dialogue, support voluntary collective bargaining and deliver on commitments contained in the action plan. The honest answer is it is too early to reliably measure any national change in collective bargaining. The action plan is in its early stages. However, we are continuing conversations and engagements through my Department with employer and employee representative organisations. Progress is being made."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh Before the last election, the Minister of State\u2019s party signed the respect at work pledge promising to support the legislation promoting collective bargaining, protect workplace representatives and guarantee trade union access at work. I cannot believe the number of workplaces in our own county that do not allow union access. Does the Minister of State genuinely believe he has honoured that pledge? The workers and unions I talk to certainly do not. Last year, I and Sinn F\u00e9in tabled a motion calling for a legal right to collective bargaining and a legal right for trade unions to access workplaces. The Government voted it down. We recognise improving collective bargaining coverage requires legislative action. Workers do not need another action plan sitting on a shelf; they need rights that are enforceable by law. The consequences of failing to strengthen collective bargaining are very real for workers and their families."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Dillon The Government's role is very much to support constructive engagement while respecting the autonomy of employers, workers and trade unions. As the Deputy knows, Ireland operates a voluntary industrial relations model. That has been developed over many decades. Other countries have different arrangements. The Government's focus now is on the implementation of the action plan that has been agreed between trade unions and the employers' representatives. It ensures that Ireland complies with the directives while respecting Irish law and practice. We are doing that by strengthening the enabling conditions. We are also strengthening the social dialogue and improving the evidence base. Policy should be focused on data. That progress is being properly monitored, and it will be informed as we move through the action plan."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Industrial Relations"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_25","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Industrial Development","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_23","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_23","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_25","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Stanley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_25.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Stanley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Brian Stanley What progress has been made on getting jobs into the large site that the IDA has in Portlaoise and also to the Leprino factory?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister for Enterprise, Tourism and Employment (Deputy Peter Burke) I thank Deputy Stanley for his questions. Balanced regional development and supporting investment and job creation in all regions is central to the work of the Department and our enterprise development agencies. A key component of IDA Ireland\u2019s five-year strategy, Adapt Intelligently 2025-29, is the continued and ambitious focus on maximising regional investment opportunities. The availability of suitable property solutions is a significant factor in winning investments into regional locations, and the IDA, through its regional property programme, maintains a portfolio of high-quality and sustainable property solutions aligned with evolving client needs. This includes the 36 ha IDA business and technology park in Portlaoise which has roughly 33 ha available for marketing to suit both manufacturing and international services clients in a landscaped and serviced environment. The IDA has undertaken several initiatives to enhance the attractiveness and readiness of the Portlaoise lands for prospective investors, including providing access to the land to the ESB for the development of infrastructure to increase local power capacity to support the local and wider community and to ensure the business park can accommodate the scale of development required by IDA clients. Planning permission for a new road extension and associated infrastructure is being sought to help open up the lands, further increasing the development potential of the park, and construction is scheduled to commence in 2027. Separately, an upgrade to the park's public lighting and CCTV network is under way. Under its current strategy, the IDA has committed to delivering an advanced planning permission, in partnership with Laois County Council, for an advance building design at this location, and this proposal is currently under review by the local authority. These initiatives are part of a broader strategy to ensure that County Laois, and specifically the lands in Portlaoise, are well positioned to attract new investment. In that regard, the IDA continues to proactively market the lands to both IDA and Enterprise Ireland client companies, including through its network of overseas offices, and is committed to the continued promotion of the lands for the development of employment generating uses consistent with its brief."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Stanley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Brian Stanley I thank the Minister for his reply. What he did not tell me was the number of IDA visits - not virtual visits but actual visits where it brought clients to those sites in Laois in the first half of 2026. The last figure I had was two. Will the Minister address the Leprino factory as well? The Minister referred to \"balanced regional development\". It is very lopsided as far as Laois is concerned. Laois has 156 IDA-backed jobs. Westmeath, the county the Minister comes from, had 4,700 the last time that I looked. That is very lopsided. The land in question is strategically located in Laois. The Minister has been down there and seen it. The rail network almost goes right into the site adjacent to it. It is almost on the M7-M8 motorway junction, as well as the N80 and the N77. The Minister will agree that the county council has been very successful with its sites down there. I welcome what the Minister said about the ESB installations going ahead. Will he tell me if it is currently happening and clarify when that road is supposed to start? Getting infrastructure on the site in order that people are not just coming to look at a greenfield site where cattle are grazing and, rather, there is a level of preparation, would help attract industry into it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peter Burke I understand scheduled construction is due to commence in 2027 in connection with Laois. There are five very significant IDA clients, as well as a number of Enterprise Ireland clients, in operation in County Laois. One of the announcements I was down in Laois recently for was Midland Steel's announcement, and the Deputy is very familiar with it and the work it is doing. I am particularly linked in to some of the advance networks that are now being developed in the digital sphere, and it is doing huge work underscoring it. We have had three site visits for County Laois to date in 2026. One of the big challenges in relation to the competition in attracting foreign direct investment is the geopolitical circumstance that we operate in. We have a number of clients that are sweating their existing assets and investing further on their current sites. It is very difficult at the moment to win new bricks and mortar developments. That is just the constraint that we are in, but we are working very hard as an agency to prioritise towns like Portlaoise, and indeed County Laois, which has a huge amount to offer such as its infrastructure, connectivity and most importantly its people, who are first class."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Stanley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Brian Stanley We have to keep this issue on the boil, to put it bluntly. Three visits in the first half of this year is still very few. While there are five industries, 156 jobs is the last figure we got on that. I want to also point out that along with those assets that the Minister saw when he visited the county, such as the strategic location of the site and the fact that it is on the crossroads of the national motorway network and the N78 and N80, as well as the rail network, the fact is over 13,000 people leave the county every morning to go to work. We have an educated and skilled workforce that is leaving the county. I spoke during a debate on public transport and transport generally earlier today. The N7 is chock-a-block in the mornings. The train is full. There are not enough carriages on the train to carry the number of people travelling out of the county. That is a good thing in a way, but a lot of those people could be working in Laois. If we want to reduce carbon emissions and have balanced industrial development, which the Minister said he wanted and I take him at his word, we need to get more people working in the county. It is a prime location. I ask the Minister to employ a razor-like focus over the next six to 12 months and to make sure the IDA is doing its job. How much is the IDA's budget this year? I am interested in that figure."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peter Burke Under the IDA's new strategy, we have earmarked about 40 new investments for the midlands region of Laois, Offaly, Longford and Westmeath. It is critical that Laois gets its share over the five-year period of that because we have upped the profile in getting more investments into regional locations, and we have a minimum of 55% picked out in the strategy. The IDA's budget increased this year. I do not have the figure off the top of my head, but we can come back to the Deputy with it. It has a very significant capital budget, and its current research, development and innovation portfolio is going very well, particularly in relation to digitalisation. A lot of new technologies are being deployed, and it is involved in important and very significant projects of common European interest. However, as I said, new bricks and mortar projects are one of the challenging areas. That is what we really have to work on to try to deliver significant new capital projects. That will be a challenge for our country in five or six years' time, if we do not start to see an increase in that regard. I will come back to the Deputy with the exact detail on the budget and the increase in it."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Industrial Development"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_26","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Legislative Process","counts":{"speechCount":12,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_23","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_23","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_26","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_26.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh This question relates to the Short-Term Letting and Tourism Bill 2026. There is a real anger towards the Minister among hosts for rushing ahead and publishing this Bill without waiting for the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Enterprise, Tourism and Employment to complete the pre-legislative scrutiny and submit the report and its recommendations. This shows an extraordinary disregard for the committee, its members and the organisations that engaged with it in good faith. The Minister is ramming the Committee, Report and Final Stages through the D\u00e1il in a single day tomorrow simply to meet his own self-imposed deadline of 1 December. What was the point of pre-legislative scrutiny if he had no intention of waiting for its conclusions?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peter Burke I thank Deputy Conway-Walsh for her very important question. The general scheme of the Short-Term Letting and Tourism Bill was approved by the Government in April 2025 and was referred to the Joint Committee on Enterprise, Tourism and Employment on 16 June 2025 to be considered under pre-legislative scrutiny following the transfer of the tourism function to the Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment. The Bill provides the statutory basis for the introduction of regulatory controls, including a national register for the short-term letting sector. The tourism sector has broadly welcomed the introduction of this register. Pre-legislative scrutiny commenced on 15 October 2025 and my Department has fully co-operated with the process set out in the Oireachtas handbook. My officials have also engaged extensively with stakeholders at national and EU level and established a dedicated webpage with information for short-term letting operators and platforms. The current pre-legislative scrutiny framework was revised in 2022 to address concerns regarding delays arising from open-ended scrutiny processes. As part of those reforms, a standard timeframe of eight weeks was established for committees to undertake pre-legislative scrutiny and furnish a report to the Minister. The Oireachtas guidance also states that committees are empowered, but not obliged, to undertake pre-legislative scrutiny and that the process should not operate as an indefinite barrier to the publication of legislation. Having allowed more than sufficient time for scrutiny, and with no report forthcoming, it was necessary to progress the legislation. Publication of the Bill ensures that the necessary legislation is in place to enable F\u00e1ilte Ireland to implement the short-term letting register in December. It will also provide legal certainty for the sector to enable Ireland to fulfil its obligations under the EU short-term rental regulation, which came into effect on 20 May 2026. It should be noted that, in line with Oireachtas guidelines, the committee's report would ordinarily have been expected by mid-December 2025. The Department allowed a further period of almost 11 months beyond that date before progressing the legislation, during which no report was furnished."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh I have never heard a more disingenuous answer. It is disrespectful to the Chair of the committee, its secretariat and members, because the Minister knows the pre-legislative scrutiny could not be completed without the planning guidelines. It would have been absolute nonsense to complete it without the guidelines. We waited and waited for those guidelines. It is the Minister who has made a shambles of this legislation and turned the entire pre-legislative scrutiny process into a farce. The committee spent considerable time and resources engaging with organisations such as F\u00e1ilte Ireland, Threshold, the Department of housing, the County and City Management Association, Historic Houses of Ireland, the Irish Self-Catering Federation, booking.com, and even the Minister's Department. They all gave their time, expertise and evidence in good faith on the understanding their contributions, alongside the committee's recommendations, would inform the final Bill. The pre-legislative scrutiny could not be completed without the national planning guidelines. The Minister needs to put that on record."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peter Burke I thank the Deputy for her response. As Minister for tourism, I am responsible for the tourism aspect of the legislation. We engaged with the committee. I cannot be responsible for the planning aspect and planning statement, which the Minister, Deputy Browne, has responsibility for. However, I point out that we held a number of joint stakeholder meetings with a number of those affected, including representatives of the Irish Self-Catering Federation. We attended its annual conference and answered questions. We had a number of meetings at the Department with it on 29 April and 20 June 2025. I also engaged extensively with the sector. As we are all aware, this debate has been going on for a long time. We know what the issues are in connection with it and it is important to get a balance to ensure we can have vibrant tourism accommodation in rural areas and that, in the 25 towns and cities where there is significant housing pressure, we ensure we bring more units back onto the long-term rental market. That is the objective of the legislation. We have a fair balance in doing that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh This is a crisis entirely of the Minister's making and he is asking everyone else to pay the price for his failure to prepare and the failure of the Minister for housing. I agree with the Minister, but there should be joined up actions in the Government between the Minister for tourism and the Minister for housing. This legislation is far too important to get wrong and the Minister has created enormous confusion and uncertainty for short-term letting hosts. His communication has been abysmal. People are genuinely panicking. Family businesses are worried about their livelihoods and they still do not know where they stand. Incredibly, it appears their legislation could allow for commercial investors operating for more than seven years to continue, while, at the same time, penalising small, family-run businesses in rural Ireland. That does not make sense. He is potentially protecting the very commercial operators this legislation is supposed to address, while punishing ordinary families. Then there is the 31 December deadline, which is right in the middle of the Christmas holidays. Offices will be closed. Services will be stretched and hosts will be scrambling to register properties before the deadline. This should not be happening."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peter Burke To be clear, this legislation does not go far enough for the Deputy's party. Sinn F\u00e9in wants to impose a stricter regime so the families the Deputy is talking about would be precluded from having short-term lets. The Sinn F\u00e9in housing spokesperson is on the record as saying this does not go far enough. The legislation I brought forward ensures the family businesses to which the Deputy referred can pay \u20ac25, register from 1 December and have two years to become planning compliant and that for family businesses that have existed for seven years - not commercial operators, but family businesses that have been providing accommodation for more than seven years - there is a presumption that planning permission will be granted to them. It is clear and concise. It is an express administration process. The Deputy needs to be clear about one thing. I listened to her speech and that of Deputy \u00d3 Broin last week. There is no consistency there. He said we need a stronger regime and almost that short-term lets are a scourge. That is what he said, that we need more long-term accommodation across the country. If the Deputy is being decent about this, she should say a figure. What figure does she want our population to be? What does she want us to work on?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh The Minister needs to differentiate them from the commercial."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peter Burke I did not hear anything put forward."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh There are two Ministers involved in this."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peter Burke The Deputy should at least be open and upfront and say we will go for 10,000 or 5,000, because when I went for 20,000, which exempts a lot of short-term lets in her constituency, Sinn F\u00e9in said I was wrong. Let us be clear on that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Conor Sheehan) The Minister is over time. We will move to the next question."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh That is an arbitrary figure plucked from the air."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Legislative Process"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_27","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Insurance Industry","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_23","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_23","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_27","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_27.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh This question relates to the cost of doing business, which is becoming increasingly unsustainable for SMEs. Small businesses are being squeezed from every direction and insurance premiums remain one of the most significant pressures facing employers. I welcome the measures to reduce excessive personal injury awards, but reducing payouts cannot simply mean increasing profits for insurance companies. What concrete action will the Minister take to ensure the savings from capped injury awards are passed on directly to SMEs through reduced insurance premiums, rather than pocketed by insurance companies?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peter Burke I thank Deputy Conway-Walsh for her question in this important area on which I am working, alongside my Cabinet colleagues, to continue to bring down the cost of insurance in line with the programme for Government. Our focus is to deliver a comprehensive series of actions aimed at improving affordability, availability and transparency across the insurance sector. One of the first steps to deliver on these commitments was the new action plan for insurance reform, which was published on 24 July 2025. The action plan for insurance reform includes a range of actions under six themes, including competitiveness, legal reform, fraud reduction, innovation and skills, and climate protection. Responsibility for the actions lies across a number of Government Departments and public sector bodies. The Injuries Resolution Board, an agency of my Department, is tasked with several actions under the plan, which are intended to strengthen its remit and maximise the number of claims resolved through its non-adversarial processes, thereby reducing unnecessary, expensive and time-consuming litigation. In October 2025, under action 4 of the plan, I published an independent report, a review of compensation for minor soft-tissue injuries in Ireland and the UK. The report analysed compensation for minor neck and back soft-tissue injuries sustained in road traffic accidents, comparing Ireland with England and Wales. It found that over the three-year period reviewed, the average assessment made in Ireland was 3.9 times higher than the average in England and Wales, while the average Irish insurer settlement was 4.9 times higher for minor neck or back injuries. On foot of this, I have asked the Injuries Resolution Board to conduct a second, more extensive, piece of research to be delivered in the first quarter of 2027, which will strengthen the evidence base and support the Judicial Council in its review of the personal injuries guidelines. In 2025, data from the Injuries Resolution Board showed that 67% of the claims received by the board were for minor injuries. Awards were only accepted in under 40% of assessed claims under the board's consent-based model. These findings demonstrate the importance of examining the more significant measures of reform set out in action 22 of the plan."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh Insurance costs are crippling small businesses. Not only do we have a situation where there are enormous energy costs, but insurance costs are continuing to rise. I know that from my own insurance costs. They have risen 15% this year. Employers are paying enormous premiums just to keep their doors open, and many are struggling to remain viable. We need competition in the insurance market to challenge the dominance of major providers and address the lack of meaningful choice available to businesses. It is all well and good introducing caps on injury awards but let us be clear about what that means. Insurance companies will be paying out less money. The question is whether businesses will see any of those savings. Meanwhile, the cost of doing business continues to spiral. We have heard the plans to permit further toll increases. For a small business using these roads multiple times each day, those additional charges quickly multiply into significant annual costs. Every increase matters when running a small business, employing people and trying to keep the doors open. Businesses need reductions in their costs, not more promises while their bills continue to rise."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peter Burke We have seen 20,000 claims go through the Injuries Resolution Board last year, which saved about \u20ac88 million in avoided legal costs. That is a significant saving for the business community. Claims are 35% lower compared with 2019 and the median award is 24% lower. That demonstrates that we are making progress. We are on the 11th consecutive month in which the cost of motor insurance has continued to fall. Again, that continued reduction is a significant and important asset. We are currently looking at the potential of bringing in a cap for minor injury claims that could go forward. Essentially, it would be similar to an adjudication made by the Residential Tenancies Board, RTB, or the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, which would be proportionate and set by the Oireachtas. Essentially, it would streamline a lot of cases and build more capacity into the system. Obviously, we would provide a right to recourse on a point of law that could be challenged through the courts. If we could have a cap in place for both the courts and the Injuries Resolution Board, it would provide significant savings to the sector. The need to get those savings passed onto consumers is critical."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh To whom will those savings go? I want to bring the Minister back to the fundamental question. He needs a clear and transparent plan to ensure the savings from the reduced personal injury awards reach the SMEs that desperately need them. Insurance companies are already generating substantial profits. There is absolutely no justification for a situation in which the Government reduces the amount insurers have to pay, only for businesses to continue to be ripped off while insurance providers enjoy greater corporate profits. What specifically is the Minister going to do to ensure those savings for insurance companies are passed on to small and medium businesses that need every help they can possibly get at this particular time? No Government policy should be done simply on the basis of providing more profit for insurance companies. We already have a lack of transparency on the raw data within the sector. We need measures in place to ensure that if this initiative goes ahead, the extra profits are passed on."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peter Burke That has been our key objective. As I pointed out, we have seen significant success with motor insurance. There have been 11 consecutive months in which the cost of motor insurance has reduced. Motor insurance costs have reduced by approximately 5% in the past year. The critical challenge has been public and employer liability. When it comes to competition in the marketplace, we have got new insurers in. A key focus of the Government, through our new insurance action plan, is to demonstrate that when we work in partnership with consumers and insurance companies in bringing in reforms \u2013 we must remember the previous Government brought in more than 90% of the reforms it was asked to do \u2013 we will be ensuring those reforms result in reduced consumer quotes on the other side of the coin. It must go in partnership. That is the bargain we have with insurance companies. We need to ensure we see reduced premiums, such as those we have seen with motor insurance. I know there is a challenge with other business insurance, but we are working hard through our new action plan to see reduced premiums."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Insurance Industry"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_28","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Business Supports","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_23","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_23","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_28","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_28.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Keira Keogh I am taking this question on behalf of my colleague, Deputy Geoghegan. I congratulate the Minister and Minister of State on the recent launch of Startup Ireland. It is a fantastic initiative. I am thankful for the work the Department and Enterprise Ireland have put into it. Will the Minister of State, Deputy Dillon, provide an overview of the programme and a breakdown of associated funding?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Dillon I thank the Deputy for the question. In October, Startup Ireland was launched as the Government's new flagship initiative to strengthen Ireland's start-up ecosystem and make it easier for founders to start, scale and succeed from Ireland. Led by Enterprise Ireland, Startup Ireland will provide a co-ordinated national framework to support entrepreneurs, improve access to funding, mentoring and networks and strengthen pathways for start-up growth. It aims to create a more connected, founder-focused system by enhancing collaboration between Enterprise Ireland, local enterprise offices, LEOs, higher education institutions, accelerators, incubators, investors and other ecosystem partners. As set out in Startup Ireland's roadmap to 2030, the initiative aims to support 10,000 entrepreneurs and facilitate the creation of 1,000 new start-ups by 2030. To support these ambitions, Startup Ireland will invest \u20ac150 million in direct early-stage funding during the period to 2030 through Enterprise Ireland's pre-seed start fund and innovative high potential start-up fund. A national start-up hub will be co-located with Enterprise Ireland's new Dublin city centre headquarters. The hub will connect Ireland's start-up and innovation ecosystem, both nationally and internationally, by providing a convening point for founders, investors, multinational companies, researchers and other partners. Startup Ireland will deliver a new national accelerator programme, with a \u20ac21 million allocation for the first three years of operation. The programme will have an enhanced regional focus and will deliver company, talent, sectoral and specialist accelerator programmes to support start-ups in high-growth sectors. The first specialist programme to be delivered is Startup Ireland's Al accelerator, which will provide participant companies with access to technical expertise, customers and investors to help them develop and scale internationally."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Keira Keogh I thank the Minister of State. It is exciting to work towards 10,000 entrepreneurs and 1,000 new start-ups with a turnover of \u20ac1 million. It is all exciting. We will have this national hub in Dublin, but I seek to ensure that we get fair regional access for our entrepreneurs across Westport, Claremorris, Belmullet and Ballina. Being a constituency colleague, I am sure the Minister of State is also seeking to ensure this. How will we ensure they also get access to investors and mentors? Will there be regional or county targets? Obviously, we are supported by the likes of the LEOs and \u00dadar\u00e1s na Gaeltachta, but how will this be rolled out? I welcome the focus on female-led founders and having that 35% target. Ireland ranks second in venture capital funding for women, but it is a low bar. Globally, female founders still struggle to access venture capital. Will the Minister of State elaborate on how that 35% aim will be achieved?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Dillon Coming from a business background, I know the Deputy is a champion within her town of Westport in this regard. Regional balance is a core principle of Startup Ireland. The strengthened new frontiers programme already operates through a nationwide network, and the new regional pre-accelerator programmes will expand greater access across the country. We all appreciate that entrepreneurs come from all parts of the country. They are spread far and wide. Talent exists in every county and that is why it is important that we have a programme that brings together funding, mentoring, accelerator programmes and international supports. Startup Ireland also has a key focus of attracting and supporting more female entrepreneurs in their journey. We are all in agreement that if we want the strong indigenous enterprises of tomorrow, we have to invest in the start-ups in the here and now. That is why we are backing this roadmap with over \u20ac150 million of funding. Indeed, the ambition is to create 1,000 new start-ups by 2030."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Keira Keogh It is good to hear that the funding has already been clearly stamped down. I recently attended the AI summit, where the AI accelerator was launched. We heard a lot about the regulatory burden facing many of the start-ups in Europe. It was mentioned that it is often potentially easier to scale into countries like the US rather than trying to navigate the different European markets. I know the proposed EU Inc. will help our position with this. Will there be resources in Startup Ireland to help companies navigate these requirements so founders can spend more time developing their products and growing their businesses rather than in regulation? One company at the summit stated that about a quarter of its staff are involved in compliance. I suppose that is okay for a medium or large enterprise, but for a small enterprise trying to grow and scale in Europe, it would be very easy to pivot to the US or markets that may be less complicated in a regulatory way."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Dillon I want to recognise the Minister of State, Deputy Smyth, and the Minister, Deputy Burke, in the context of the success of the international AI summit. It really shone a spotlight on what Ireland already possesses in terms of its strength within AI, but also within technology, research and innovation. As the Deputy said, AI represents probably one of the biggest economic opportunities of our generation, so there is a real focus on it. The first specialist accelerator programme under Startup Ireland will be the AI accelerator. The objective is to ensure that Irish indigenous founders and entrepreneurs are supported so they can have that connection with experts, investors and customers at local level, but also be able to scale internationally. We want that ambition to be delivered by Irish companies. That will be a key focus as we roll out the new national accelerator programme across the country."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Business Supports"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_29","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":false,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_29","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_30","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Urban Development","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_29","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_29","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_30","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_30.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Martin Daly What specific measures does the Minister intend to introduce to address persistently high commercial vacancy rates in rural towns around the country, particularly in my constituency at Boyle, County Roscommon, where there is a commercial vacancy rate of 30%, and also in Ballinasloe, County Galway, Ballaghaderreen, Castlerea and Ballygar, where there are considerable vacancies?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Dillon I emphasise that we all acknowledge the importance of having vibrant towns and villages, and that local shops and the retail sector are essential in achieving that aim. I am committed to tackling the issue of commercial vacancy across rural towns and villages. I have asked my officials in the Department to assess proposals on activating vacant commercial properties. The retail sector provides a huge amount of important employment, with over 220,000 people directly employed in retail. This contributes to the economy in every city, town and village in the country. As the Deputy is aware, the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the Department of Rural and Community Development and the Gaeltacht developed the town centre first policy, which was launched back in 2022. This was a major cross-government policy that aimed to tackle vacancy, combat dereliction and breathe new life into our town centres. Most recently, we have had the next revision of Our Rural Future out to 2031. That renewed policy framework sets out the Government\u2019s approach to reinvesting in and strengthening the economic, social and environmental well-being of rural areas. The new policy has a strong focus on vacancy and also highlights the importance of town and village renewal schemes and the town centre first approach as the primary solution to vacancy. Commitment 1.2 of the policy looks at enhancing the vitality and resilience of rural towns by advancing the town centre first approach. In addition, within the local authorities, we have over 31 LEOs that will support and continue the economic strategies in the local economic and community plans. We want to ensure they have more visibility within our local authorities to try to support businesses early in their journey and ensure that they have access to the required supports during that process."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Martin Daly The State and the Government cannot be faulted in this area. In Ballinasloe, just transition funding of \u20ac5.7 million has been committed, with a further \u20ac3.8 million under town and city regeneration. There has also been an application under the S\u00cdOL programme for deprived towns and an enterprise hub in which \u20ac225,000 was invested. Regarding childcare, there was State-led capital funding for a new preschool in Boyle, as well as a new community library for Boyle and community recognition funding for Boyle Town Centre and King House. The State has committed considerable funding in the education and social enterprise areas, but without enterprise, without business, which is the beating heart of our towns, towns will not survive. We really need that. We cannot have hollowed-out towns up and down the country, where we have people living on the periphery and nothing going on in the centre of the town."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Dillon The Deputy\u2019s points are well made. I agree that the level of vacancy referenced for the towns of Boyle and Ballinasloe is too high. No one benefits from empty shopfronts, not the local community or the neighbouring businesses that are trading, and certainly not the town itself. That is why, within the Department of enterprise, I have developed proposals for a retail activation programme. It is about turning vacancy into a vibrant programme and specifically looking at vacancy on our shopping streets. We are starting with the 21 town centre first towns and then expanding that to other towns that have substantial vacancy. The proposal concerns how to put a vacant building, an entrepreneurial business and Government supports together at one front door. We need to ensure that we can work together with town regeneration officers and local authorities, look at the mechanisms and supports that are available, and drive that forward in the months ahead."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Martin Daly We have seen how a radical approach to housing under the vacancy and dereliction grants can work to bring housing in rural areas back into living spaces for people and make rural communities vibrant. We need that type of radical thinking for town centres across my constituency, but also throughout the country. We have to find a way to bring people and businesses back into the centre of town. Of course, we have the over the shop scheme to bring people to live in our town centres again. Without that revitalisation, we will end up with vacant properties and derelict town centres where people just hang out, with commercial enterprises that are not particularly desirable and with people leaving their towns to shop and do their business in bigger centres."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Dillon I agree with the points made by the Deputy. We have some excellent schemes in place. The above the shop living scheme is an important one, with \u20ac130,000 of supports for owners to bring more residential life into towns. We have town centre first, the town renewal scheme, but there is still a gap. I think we are good at improving buildings, but we are not always successful at getting businesses into those vacant premises. The proposal I want is very much around activation. How do we identify a vacant unit? How do we bring a business to the person who owns the unit? How do we help businesses access support and address the barriers? How do we look at broader ideas around targeted rates, incentives and shopfront improvement supports? How do we provide co-ordinated local enterprise office assistance for businesses that are looking to take on a lease over 24 or 36 months, and how will they be supported on that journey? We are focused on that. I will keep the Deputy updated."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Urban Development"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_31","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Social Enterprise Sector","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_29","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_29","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_31","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niamh Smyth","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_31.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy George Lawlor Given the role that social enterprises play in sustaining employment and services in towns and villages where private sector investment may be limited, will the Minister introduce targeted grants or tax incentives for social enterprises operating in rural and disadvantaged areas?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niamh Smyth","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment (Deputy Niamh Smyth) I thank Deputy Lawlor for this very important question. The policy responsibility for social enterprise lies with the Department of Rural and Community Development and the Gaeltacht. Trading for Impact: National Social Enterprise Policy 2024-2027 was launched by the Minister for Rural and Community Development in 2024. This policy is designed to cultivate and sustain a strong, impactful social enterprise sector in Ireland that enriches the social, environmental and economic well-being of our communities. It was developed following extensive consultation with the sector and outlines a renewed commitment to help cultivate strong and impactful social enterprises through new and existing supports. Many of the actions contained in Trading for Impact seek to support social enterprises to increase their trading income and improve their resilience, thereby reducing the reliance on grant funding. Balanced regional development is a Government priority. The Department and its agencies contribute to this agenda in several ways, including through regional enterprise plans, REPs, and the local enterprise offices. In the Department, the regional enterprise plans have proven effective in fostering regional collaboration, bringing together key stakeholders to identify challenges and opportunity and take action in areas such as cluster development, manufacturing and the knowledge economy. The REPs are bottom-up plans developed and led by regional stakeholders which focus on collaborative initiatives to strengthen the enterprise environment. Each of the nine REPs are tailored to reflect regional strengths and opportunities and aligned to national enterprise policy priorities, such as decarbonisation and digitalisation. First launched in 2018, the REPs evolved from the regional action plans for jobs which were in place from 2015 to 2017. The latest REPs ran from 2022 to the end of 2025, following an agreement to extend them by year one to support implementation and enable consideration of their future iterations."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy George Lawlor I thank the Minister of State for her response. While I appreciate that the Department of Social Protection plays a leading role in the area of social enterprise, I believe that the Department of enterprise should be equal in its contribution to the development of social enterprise. Often, as we know, social enterprises can be the employer of last resort in rural communities. I am sure the Minister of State will accept that in many towns and villages, particularly where private sector investment is weak, they provide employment opportunities that otherwise do not exist. Every euro invested in social enterprise delivers a double return. Unlike conventional businesses, social enterprise reinvests its profits back into local services, providing training, employment and community development. Why is there no dedicated tax incentive recognising this added social value? It also has a key role to play in tackling rural decline. Targeted grants and tax incentives for social enterprises would be most welcome."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niamh Smyth","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Niamh Smyth Following an independent review of the REP initiative, the Department and its officials are working on a new approach to regional enterprise development, aligning more closely with the regional, spatial and economic strategies. This will strengthen the links between enterprise development, skills, infrastructure and wider regional planning. In addition to this, our local enterprise offices, LEOs, provide a wide range of business supports, which are available to social enterprises provided they operate on a commercial basis and meet the eligibility criteria of the scheme for which they wish to apply. Social enterprises are generally eligible for the full range of the LEO capacity building and productivity supports, including all training, mentoring and advisory services. These include lean for business, green for business and the digital AI for business consultancy programmes, the grow digital and AI voucher and the energy efficiency grant. In addition, they can access a wide range of high-quality business and management development programmes tailored to meet specific development requirements. The Department, through both the LEO policy statement for 2024 to 2030 and Enterprise Ireland strategy, Delivering for Ireland, Leading Globally, recognises that social enterprises are a valuable part of our economy, and we support the Department of Rural and Community Development and the Gaeltacht's Trading for Impact: National Social Enterprise Policy 2024-2027."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy George Lawlor In my own county of Wexford, there are some excellent social enterprises that provide a deal of employment and add to the economy, both in the area of training and retraining. These include EPIC Social Enterprise, Kafe Konnect, run by Wexford Local Development, Wexford Enterprise Centre and Recycling 2000. These are good enterprises that provide employment and training and commit to the local economy. Given the relatively moderate cost of targeted grants or tax relief compared to large-scale industrial supports, does the Minister of State not agree that social enterprises represent excellent value for money in the context of investing in them to invest in jobs? They are not seeking special treatment. They are just asking for recognition for the unique role they play in sustaining jobs, keeping services alive and maintaining the social fabric of communities, which, of course, is all part of the role of the Department of Social Protection, but the Department of enterprise has a key role to play here."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niamh Smyth","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Niamh Smyth I agree with the essence of what Deputy Lawlor is saying in terms of anything we can do to nurture and harness the social enterprises. We should be taking a serious and more laser-sharp focus on it. Officials from the Department attend the trading for impact stakeholder engagement group and contribute to progressing actions assigned to the Department. That may be where the crux of the Deputy's argument is. This is between the Department of Gaeltacht and rural affairs and the Department of enterprise. In addition, Enterprise Ireland's LEO operations and client excellence unit has actively worked for a number of years to improve awareness, understanding and constituency in how local enterprises are supported across the network. This has included dedicated training and awareness sessions with LEO staff developed in collaboration with representatives from the social enterprise sector, social enterprise practitioners and enterprise consultants. I take the Deputy's point and I will discuss it with the Minister, Deputy Burke, and our colleagues in the Department of rural affairs."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Social Enterprise Sector"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_32","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Enterprise Policy","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_29","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_29","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_32","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Currie","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_32.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Currie","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Currie I welcome the Minister's initiative and leadership in bringing forward the proposed Enterprise 2035 strategy. It is both timely and important, given the significant challenges taking place in the global economy, the rapid development of AI and the challenges and opportunities facing Irish businesses. There was an initial consultation process earlier this year. What further engagement and consultation are planned with businesses and representative organisations as the strategy is developed?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peter Burke I thank Deputy Currie for her important question. Work has commenced on the development of the new national enterprise strategy, Enterprise 2035. The strategy will build on the White Paper on enterprise and maintain a focus on strengthening Ireland's position as an open economy underpinned by trade and innovation. Its development is being informed by an evidence-based approach, combined research, stakeholder engagement and public consultation. A public consultation was launched on 31 July 2026 and concluded on 2 October 2026, providing businesses and other stakeholders with an opportunity to contribute to the strategy's development. More than 100 submissions were received as part of the public consultation process and they are currently being assessed by the Department. The findings of the consultation will be considered by the three groups overseeing the development of the strategy, an internal principal officer group, an interdepartmental group at assistant secretary level and an external advisory group comprising business leaders and academics. The interdepartmental group had its first meeting on 9 September 2026. I chaired the first meeting of the expert advisory group on 29 September 2026. These groups will help ensure that relevant policy areas across government are reflected in the strategy and that Enterprise 2035 is developed as a coherent, whole-of-government framework. In addition, the Department is arranging a series of bilateral engagements with relevant Departments to examine the key policy areas. Following consideration of the consultation feedback and wider stakeholder inputs, drafting of the strategy will commence in quarter 1 of 2027 with publication planned for quarter 2 of 2027. Stakeholder engagement will continue throughout the drafting process, including through the Department's enterprise and retail forums. I encourage all businesses and sectoral representatives to take advantage of the opportunity to get involved and share their views. The Department also intends to engage directly with regional businesses through a series of focused workshops on specific aspects of the strategy during quarter 1 of 2027."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Currie","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Currie One of the key challenges in developing a genuinely national enterprise strategy is that responsibility for significant parts of the Irish economy is spread across a number of Departments. Financial services fall under the Department of Finance, transport falls under the Department of Transport, energy falls under the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment, food and drink fall under the Department of agriculture and construction falls under the Department of housing. These are all significant sectors in terms of private sector employment, investment and economic growth. While Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland support some businesses in these sectors, responsibility for their broader competitiveness and development largely rests within the relevant line Departments. The fundamental challenge is that we need to move beyond having individual Departments looking after individual sectors towards a whole-of-government approach to competitiveness of every significant sector of the Irish economy, to ensure that it is given consistent attention at the very core of the Government."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peter Burke Deputy Currie has raised an excellent point and is absolutely right that responsibility can straddle a number of Departments. There are a few key examples of how we are trying to break down silos in government. First, in the case of health, the Minister for Health, Jennifer Carroll MacNeill, and I are bringing together a live science strategy, looking at how we can look through the prism of innovation, which comes under my Department, and access for all, under the Department of Health. It looks at how we can make the most innovative medicines accessible to the population at large. That is a key example of having symposiums with industry to explain the Government's perspective and our wider responsibilities to the community while also trying to get exciting new businesses to invest and develop in Ireland. In the case of housing, Construct Innovate is working with Enterprise Ireland on the new development model in Mount Lucas, which is training people in modern methods of construction, MMC. This is a very exciting opportunity whereby well over two thirds of all construction in Ireland are now done through modern methods of construction. We have a huge opportunity to increase that by breaking down the silos and having Departments work together. The Deputy is absolutely right, and that is what I want to see more of."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Currie","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Currie I am glad we are on the same page. Some Departments have their own sectoral strategies, but their focus is often primarily on regulation and other departmental priorities rather than the competitiveness and growth of the business operating within those sectors. Bringing tourism within the remit of the Minister's Department is welcome, but it is neither practical nor realistic to expect every enterprise sector to sit within his Department. We need effective structures to ensure all sectors receive appropriate, strategic attention. Would the Minister consider establishing a permanent Cabinet committee, or an equivalent formal cross-government mechanism, specifically tasked with overseeing enterprise, competitiveness and productivity in all sectors of the economy? How will he ensure Enterprise 2035 is properly aligned with the sectoral strategies of other Departments, with clear ownership and accountability for delivering on competitiveness and growth?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peter Burke Those are very valuable suggestions put forward by the Deputy. Implementing strategies is key because you have to have key performance indicators to monitor whether your strategy is delivering. Just like A New Era for Irish Tourism, our tourism strategy, we monitor this through our Cabinet subcommittee. We also monitor the action plan on competitiveness and productivity through the National Productivity and Competitive Council, where we have summits to ensure we meet the objectives set out in that strategy and that each objective is carried out. Our cost-of-business advisory forum is another key strategy with very clear targets. Some of these targets are very challenging because they go to structural deficits at the heart of government, with some taking time to resolve. I am absolutely open to working with Deputy Currie on suggestions for any mechanism that could ensure we are holding all Departments' feet to the fire to improve our competitiveness. There are huge challenges in Ireland's competitive offering right now, chief among them energy. That is our biggest challenge as an economy right now, and I would be happy to work with Deputy Currie on anything we could do to unlock that potential."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question No. 85 taken with Written Answers."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Enterprise Policy"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_33","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Visa Applications","counts":{"speechCount":7,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_29","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_29","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_33","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_33.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Colm Burke I am seeking an update on the Department's progress in establishing a single application process for employment permits and visa applications. I understand a committee was set up between two Departments. What progress has been made with that committee?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment (Deputy Alan Dillon) I thank Deputy Burke for his question. Over the past number of years, my officials, in collaboration with officials in the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration, have been working strenuously to deliver a more efficient and streamlined employment permit and visa system. A key element of this is the implementation of a single application procedure for both employment permits and immigration permissions, in line with the single permit directive. It is expected this will reduce the complexity of the current system, ensuring the process responds efficiently and quickly to the skills and labour market needs of the future. A programme implementation team, co-chaired by my Department and the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration, has been established. The initial focus of this group has been the streamlining of existing processes and co-ordinated external communication, scoping the feasibility of technological, legislative and data sharing solutions, and agreeing and laying the groundwork for subsequent implementation. The expected delivery date for this complex project is 2027. My colleague the Minister of State, Deputy Brophy, and I recently met with officials from both Departments and we remain actively engaged with regard to driving momentum to ensure progress is maintained and milestones are achieved in the work on the single permit directive. A pilot project has been developed, which will test the new single application procedure for applicants under the critical skills employment permit scheme, Ireland's primary economic migration route for attracting highly skilled talent in sectors experiencing labour shortages. The initiative forms part of ongoing efforts to modernise public services, improve customer experience for applicants and employers and strengthen co-ordination between employment permit and immigration processes. These developments mark a necessary and significant step towards a more integrated and efficient employment permit and visa system, which will strengthen Ireland\u2019s reputation as an attractive place to work and do business."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Colm Burke I thank the Minister of State. I raise this matter because employers are having difficulty when they offer a person a job and then that person has to apply for a work permit. Whether it is a critical skills employment permit or a general employment permit, they then have to apply for an entry visa. Over the years the process has taken too long, and I have seen cases where employers have withdrawn their offer of employment, which is quite frustrating. When the Minister of State says we will have a process in place in 2027, are we talking about the start or end of that year? The other reason I am concerned relates to stamp 4 applications. At one point this year, and I know it is not the Minister of State's Department, over 100,000 applications were pending. Work was done to resolve that issue, but the Department did not appear to have foreseen that number of applications waiting for stamp 4 renewal."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Dillon I thank Deputy Burke for outlining his concerns. It will not be at the start or the end of the year; rather, it will be somewhere in between in 2027. We are actively working on this. As the Deputy said, one of the key reasons we are undertaking this work is that we recognise the delays, the complexity created and the challenges for both employers and applicants. Alongside the development of the single application procedure, officials in both Departments are examining how we can continue to expedite visa processing, particularly for holders of the critical skills employment permit and those working in high-demand sectors. A major advantage of better integration and information sharing is that it should remove the duplication between the Departments. That in itself will create a more efficient process. There are real opportunities here, not just for a new system but for radical reform in how we process employment permits and visa requirements and improve the processing times and overall customer experience."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Colm Burke The issue that remains is the huge amount of paperwork involved in any application. This is about making it easier for departmental officials too. I fully accept that there must be checks and balances. No Department can take shortcuts, and it is important that this process does not take shortcuts. A robust system needs to be put in place such that there will be careful examination of people looking to come to work here, but also a safe and secure procedure in place. I would give one example. This is nothing to do with the Minister of State's Department or any other Department but I know of one person who worked under another person's PPSN for over ten years - he did not have a PPS number himself - and was able to work through the system. Therefore I am very aware of the need for proper precautions and processes to be in place to make sure there is full security for everyone coming into the country."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Dillon I thank the Deputy for his questions and comments. I think the Minister of State, Deputy Smyth, and the Minister will also agree. Every day we meet companies and businesses and the one issue they relate is challenges with labour and skill talent. We are competing internationally for that. When people look to invest and expand their operations here in Ireland, they need to have a system that is efficient and which responds to that. As of today, new applications are being processed for critical skills employment permits. Five days is the processing time for those and for general employment permits it is 25 days. The objective is to build and improve on that and that is what we will do. We will provide a simpler customer journey. We will reduce the duplication between the Department of enterprise and the Department of justice. We will also get better co-ordination between both Departments. There will be greater transparency for the applicants. We will reduce the administrative burden for employees. We want a system that works and I think this new platform will tick all those boxes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Conor Sheehan) Before I come to Deputies Connolly and \u00d3 Cear\u00fail, I will go to Deputy O\u2019Connor on Question No. 86."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Visa Applications"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_34","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Enterprise Support Services","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_29","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_29","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_34","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"James O'Connor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-O'Connor.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"James-O'Connor.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_34.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"James O'Connor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-O'Connor.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"James-O'Connor.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James O'Connor I want to ask about the status of Startup Ireland. The initiative is aimed at boosting about 20% of startups that want to scale revenue by over \u20ac1 million a year. It is very welcome because Ireland needs to do more to grow indigenous business and our SME sector and to make a new generation of entrepreneurs believe that Ireland can deliver for them through Government funding and agencies. Will the Minister of State outline to the House the benefit of the scheme, show how it will work and give some feedback to the question?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Dillon Startup Ireland is the Government's flagship initiative to strengthen Ireland's startup ecosystem and make Ireland one of Europe's best places to start and scale an ambitious company. Led by Enterprise Ireland, the initiative is intended to provide a more co-ordinated and founder-focused approach to supporting entrepreneurship in Ireland. The Startup Ireland Roadmap 2026-2030 sets out a vision for a more connected ecosystem that enables entrepreneurs to access the support, expertise, talent, networks and international opportunities needed to translate innovative ideas into globally competitive businesses. Startup Ireland has been developed in response to analysis of Ireland's startup ecosystem which identified the need for greater co-ordination between stakeholders, stronger international connections and clearer pathways for founders seeking support and investment. The initiative therefore seeks to bring together Government, higher education institutions, investors, industry and startup support organisations around a common framework for startup development. Importantly, Startup Ireland has been designed with a strong focus on the needs and experiences of founders. The views of entrepreneurs were central to the development of the initiative, reflecting feedback on the importance of clearer pathways to support stronger ecosystem co-ordination and easier access to funding, expertise, talent and international markets. A key objective is therefore to create a more connected, responsive and founder-focused ecosystem that is easier to navigate and better aligned with the needs of ambitious entrepreneurs at different stages of their development. A central feature of the initiative is the creation of a national startup hub, which will serve as a focal point for Ireland's startup ecosystem and provide founders with a clearer entry point to available supports and opportunities. The hub will strengthen connections between entrepreneurs, investors, researchers, multinational companies and other ecosystem participants while supporting collaboration between national and regional stakeholders."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James O'Connor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-O'Connor.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"James-O'Connor.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James O'Connor With the changing global landscape, the certainty of US foreign direct investment in Ireland and making sure we have a diversified economy, we need to take into account the fact that fewer than a dozen companies are paying in excess of 60% of Irish corporation tax. While it is a positive that over 250,000 employees in Ireland go to work in US multinational companies every day, when we know that is a risk, we must take into account how we derisk from that and have Irish companies and Irish entrepreneurs who work day in, day out setting up their own enterprises and finding employees in their own local areas to scale and grow their businesses. I welcome that the budget commits \u20ac3 million to help establish Startup Ireland and that there is \u20ac21 million in funding available through the accelerator programme. Those are very positive Government-led initiatives. Will the Minister of State give an idea of how they will work, their objectives and what the key outcomes may be from those decisions?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Dillon I thank the Deputy and the joint committee on enterprise which he chairs for their work in championing indigenous Irish companies. The Government wants more indigenous Irish companies to start, scale and succeed internationally. That is why this initiative and roadmap has a very firm focus. It is to support over 10,000 entrepreneurs and create over 1,000 new startups by 2030. Every successful indigenous company brings an entrepreneur who is willing to bring forward an idea and create the environment for those ideas to become successful businesses. That is why we are putting in significant funding with this. There is \u20ac21 million for the national accelerator programme while \u20ac150 million will be allocated for pre-seed funding through Enterprise Ireland. This is all about designing the ecosystem that feeds in to new indigenous Irish companies so they will be more resilient into the future."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James O'Connor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-O'Connor.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"James-O'Connor.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James O'Connor We need to make sure we provide every support we can through every available Government agency and make sure there is accountability and not have different entities not talking to one another. I thank the Ministers of State and the Minister present for the work they have done. I also congratulate the Minister of State, Deputy Smyth, on the success of the recent AI summit. It has been really well received by all the partners who participated. We are grateful to see Ireland being showcased internationally by multinational companies. It is important for young people and entrepreneurs who are passionate about the success and future of Irish business seeing the possibilities out there when they put their shoulders to the wheel. That is why these initiatives are timely. They should work. Then there is the series B funding. We have to ensure companies in Ireland do not always feel they need to migrate over to Silicon Valley to obtain scale and success. We need to encourage that not only in Ireland but also in the European Union. Ireland is a key player in helping that transition."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Dillon Again, I thank Deputy O\u2019Connor for his comments. The Startup Ireland programme very much looks at where indigenous Irish companies will be in ten years and the need to start now to ensure we build more Irish companies, create more jobs, drive innovation and strengthen long-term competitiveness. The Deputy spoke about our reliance on FDI and multinational companies. We do need to rebalance that and focus on our own competitiveness at a local level. The startup hub will act as a real front door to Ireland\u2019s startup ecosystem. It will bring everyone together, from founders, investors, multinational companies, universities and even support organisations. The expectation will be that the startup hub will be operational in the first quarter of 2028. We have a plan, progress is being made and we look forward to further engagement on that."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Enterprise Support Services"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_35","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Enterprise Support Services","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_29","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_29","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_35","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_35.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy John Connolly I want to ask about the new western regional enterprise plan. The previous plan ran from 2022 to 2025. At the end a very substantial progress report was undertaken. I expect the new plan will include much of what was contained in that report."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Dillon Balanced regional development remains a Government priority. My Department and its agencies contribute to this agenda in several ways through the regional enterprise plans. The most recent regional enterprise plans include the western regional plan covering Galway, Mayo and Roscommon, which ran from 2022 to the end of 2025. These plans were developed and delivered by regional stakeholders and focused on collaborative actions to strengthen regional enterprise ecosystems. My Department commissioned an independent review of the REP initiatives alongside consideration of the final progress reports for the plan. The final progress reports for the regional enterprise plans will be published shortly and, together with the findings of the independent review, have informed Government consideration of the future approach to regional enterprise development. The approach approved by the Government will align regional enterprise priorities more closely with the regional spatial and economic strategies, RSESs, of the regional assemblies. This will strengthen the links between enterprise development, skills, infrastructure and wider regional planning, supporting a more integrated approach to regional enterprise development. My Department\u2019s officials are engaging with the relevant Departments, agencies and authorities to develop a regional enterprise framework statement to give effect to this approach, whereby any future regional enterprise actions will operate as focused implementation programmes aligned with the RSESs. This approach will combine long-term strategic planning with shorter term action-oriented delivery. The framework is expected to be completed in early 2027. In the meantime, substantial supports remain available to enterprises in the region. Through the local enterprise offices, Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland, companies across the west continue to benefit from a wide range of supports, including research and development funding, digitalisation and sustainability programmes, export supports, entrepreneurship initiatives, property solutions and regional investment measures."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy John Connolly I recognise in the Minister of State\u2019s response a continued commitment to the whole area of enterprise and innovation in the western region and the support the Government has given to that, working with different agencies, organisations and the private sector. One thing about the last plan, and about the final progress report that is available on it, is that some of the ongoing projects are only partially complete. There is one particularly exciting one that I want to bring to the Minister of State\u2019s attention and I hope it would form part of the new plan - the development of the new health tech campus in Galway. Galway County Council and the life sciences working group of the current plan were advancing an Enterprise Ireland smart regions feasibility study for a life science and health tech centre of excellence, which would be known as the health check campus. This would be driven by the regional academic powerhouses, the University of Galway and Atlantic Technical University. An example of their potential is the BioInnovative programme, which has already generated over 30 start-ups and \u20ac300 million of follow-on funding. There is also the medical and engineering technology or MET Gateway, which is the Enterprise Ireland research centre at ATU. We need a co-ordinated method of bringing this to life."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Dillon I thank the Deputy for raising this important project. The west is an active hub for many of the pharma, medtech and life science companies. In his own county, IDA Ireland supports a huge amount of employment. There are over 133 IDA-supported companies across the west and in Galway over 170 IDA clients that create jobs for more than 25,400 people. Our Department continues to support enterprise development through the regional enterprise development fund. Over \u20ac19 million has been secured for the west. The Deputy mentioned the scheme through the smart regions enterprise. We will look at the health tech campus. It would be an exciting project. The Deputy has spoken about it in the House previously and I know Enterprise Ireland is working on the feasibility and development programmes into the future."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy John Connolly I thank the Minister of State. He is right. It would be an exciting project. It has significant potential to attract investment from outside the region and, more particularly, to instigate new business and new innovation. As I said, it is being led by the two academic powerhouses in the region. It will be the type of facility that will bring projects and companies from concept right through every stage until they are up and running and in production and, hopefully, become profitable businesses employing more people. The spin-off that creates should not be forgotten. I will become even more overtly parochial but another action of the existing plan, which is only partially complete, includes the extension of gteic at Na Forbacha. That had a specific ambition. The extension would be specifically tailored to meet the requirements of the life sciences sector providing state-of-the-art facilities to foster research, development and collaboration. Planning permission had been granted and tender documents were at an advanced stage. I hope the new enterprise plan will further develop that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Dillon It is evident that the Deputy is a great advocate of regional balanced development. He has mentioned two really important projects not only for Galway but the west. Success for me is not having huge concentration in Dublin or on the east coast. Success means we will have enterprise growth right across the country and strong investment in projects like the gteic he mentioned and the health hub campus. The west has seen significant strengths in medtech, technology and life sciences as well as food innovation, renewable energy and tourism. The next version of the regional enterprise plans transitioning into the RSES will be an important step forward. We want to get the framework right now. In doing so we will move forward to ensure that key areas along the west coast are also being supported."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Questions Nos. 89 and 90 taken with Written Answers."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Enterprise Support Services"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_36","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Artificial Intelligence","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_29","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_29","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_36","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niamh Smyth","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_36.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail I will start by congratulating the Ministers of State, Deputies Smyth and Dillon, and the Minister, Deputy Burke, on the international AI summit. It was a marvellous event. I also congratulate their officials. It was clear a lot of work went into it so I thank them for all their work. I wish to ask about the specific AI technology and research areas that Ireland intends to prioritise under the IPCEI in artificial intelligence and the way in which these priorities will be determined."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niamh Smyth","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Niamh Smyth IPCEI projects are large-scale, EU multi-country projects and are an important tool for delivering breakthrough innovation and infrastructure when the market alone does not deliver. They are set apart from other research programmes by the scale of collaboration and investment, most of which comes from industry. For Ireland, investment in IPCEIs in key strategic sectors offers huge market opportunities for the industries of tomorrow, creating new, well-paid and secure jobs and securing Ireland\u2019s position as an innovation leader. At a European level, participation in IPCEI demonstrates Ireland\u2019s constructive engagement in efforts to enhance Europe\u2019s technological leadership and build our resilience. The current programme for Government aims to: \u201cBoost participation in Important Projects of Common European Interest (IPCEI) to increase competitiveness and productivity for Irish companies and create more jobs.\" The action plan on competitiveness and jobs also includes a priority action to enable Irish-based firms participate in IPCEI. To deliver on this ambition, I announced in budget 2026 the allocation of \u20ac120 million for IPCEI participation to position Ireland at the forefront of strategic European industrial initiatives, including advanced semiconductors and AI technologies. This enabled my Department to launch a national call for expressions of interest in three digital IPCEI, including an IPCEI in AI, in December 2025, with a closing date of February 2026. Applicants were provided with published guidance in the form of an IPCEI-AI value chain description document which defined the rationale for the IPCEI, the scope of the IPCEI and the key objectives to be delivered. The scope of the IPCEI-AI was developed by member states, the Commission and other stakeholders during 2025 to ensure it effectively contributes to European strategic goals. Arising from this process, a number of key technology fields are targeted by IPCEI, which I will outline in a moment."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail The Minister of State covered a lot of the positives that are coming with this and I do not want to go over that. I was going to ask for specifics around the technologies but I think she will outline that in her response to my supplementary. She mentioned that prioritisation was around semiconductors for Intel in my constituency, which is marvellous, but also AI more generally. Is the key component AI infrastructure compute capacity? We talk about data centres and the need for compute. As these companies grow, they need more space. Is it cybersecurity entrusted AI in healthcare and life sciences about which we heard from Deputy Connolly and the Minister of State, Deputy Dillon regarding expansion in the west? Is it industrial manufacturing applications or public sector AI solution? There are a lot of areas we could focus in on and, ideally, we would have specific priorities in terms of that AI application."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niamh Smyth","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Niamh Smyth The key technology fields we are targeting are data processing, sovereign foundations large language modules, LLMs, and large reasoning models, LRMs, sovereign industry sector-specific foundation models, AI deployment and operations, OpenAI, Platform AI, and AI services in sector-specific use cases. Ireland is progressing two projects under the IPCEI, subject to obtaining the necessary approvals from the Commission. The technology areas covered are network management for the future, clinical workflow and logistics infrastructure. Two projects are being progressed. One is the network management of the future. The project will contribute to the broader European digital ecosystem and AI innovation landscape. It will also support integration with cloud edge computing, and multivendor network environments. The network management of the future aligns with IPCEI and EU digital sovereignty by developing autonomous, secure and energy-efficient AI platforms for critical telecoms networks, reducing non-EU technology reliance and strengthening European industrial competitiveness. I thank the Deputy for his forbearance."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail I thank the Minister of State. That is extremely helpful, particularly the two key areas of network management of the future, which would include cloud, and clinical workflow and the logistics around that. I will email her to get more detail. We look at network management of the future, and just dovetailing for a second into the whole piece around digital sovereignty, that is the main piece of conversation. Again, we speak about data centres. The narrative is that data centres are extremely negative. What we need to try and get out there is the need for data centres and compute. When we talk about healthcare and the expansion of digital healthcare, that needs somewhere to stay. That compute is required in Ireland if we do not want it to go to the US or further afield. I appreciate the clarification around those two priorities of the network management of the future and the clinical workflow and logistics. I look forward to working with the Minister of State on that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niamh Smyth","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Niamh Smyth AI and digital sovereignty is a very live debate globally. Ireland has to remain an honest broker in that conversation. The Deputy has been very public and honest, as many colleagues have, about how the infrastructure is needed to keep Ireland not just at the centre of the conversation, but ahead, and not just in Europe but globally. Ireland has done a terrific job of that so far. It can be a difficult conversation to have, but if we are truthful and honest with the people, there is a deep understanding of how it has benefited Ireland so far and how it has put us front and centre in the digital economy, and of course with AI as it develops too. At a very basic level, there is the dependency we have on it for employment in this country. It is a huge part of the economy and our skilled labour force very much depends on it. Ireland needs to continue in the vein of being the honest broker in that discussion."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Questions Nos. 92 to 94, inclusive, taken with Written Answers."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Artificial Intelligence"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_37","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Maternity Leave","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/dbsect_29","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_29","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_37","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-10\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_37.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Colm Burke What is the status of the Pregnancy Loss (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2025? Is it to be published shortly or what is the plan within the Department on the matter?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister for Enterprise, Tourism and Employment (Deputy Peter Burke) I thank the Deputy for his very important question. This is a Private Members' Bill that proposes introduction of paid leave following pregnancy loss. On 9 July 2025, Government tabled a motion in Seanad \u00c9ireann that the Bill be deemed to be read a second time 12 months from that date to allow sufficient time for the Government to develop legislative proposals in line with its principles. The motion was passed.# Following extensive policy development grounded in the Government commissioned \u2018PLACES report\u2019, which examined pregnancy loss under 24 weeks gestation in the workplace, in addition to broad stakeholder engagement, I brought the general scheme of the pregnancy loss leave Bill to Cabinet in July this year. The general scheme, which was approved by Government, provides for a new statutory entitlement to pregnancy loss leave for employees who experience a pregnancy loss prior to 23 weeks\u2019 gestation. Under existing legislation, maternity leave is available for those who experience a loss from 23 weeks gestation and onwards. The scheme amends the Maternity Protection Act to provide for five days of leave per year for employees who experience a pregnancy loss prior to 23 weeks gestation. The leave will require medical certification. The leave will be employer paid and payment will be contingent on a service requirement. The proposal addresses the extremely important and sensitive issue of pregnancy loss. Despite an estimated one in four pregnancies ending in a loss, it is often dealt with privately without the support or indeed knowledge of an employer. The general scheme intends to reflect the realities of modern working life: that those who have lost a pregnancy should be entitled to take time away from work to recover. Since Government approval of the general scheme, officials in my Department have commenced engagement with the Office of Parliamentary Counsel to progress drafting of the Bill as a priority. We are continuing to engage with stakeholders during the priority drafting of the Bill."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Colm Burke I thank the Minister. The Department is talking about drafting a Bill, which he has outlined. What kind of timeframe are we talking about? As the Minister said, it is a very difficult time for anyone. What tends to happen is people get medical certificates from their doctors that allow them to stay out of work for a period of time. Will this be set up as a formal legislative process? What is the timescale in which he expects to be able to bring forward a new Bill? Will we see it within the next three months or will it take a little longer? I fully understand that there are pressures for priority in relation to Bills but this is an important area, and it is only right that it be put in a legislative format so there are clear legal entitlements for someone to take leave and be appropriately remunerated as well."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peter Burke I thank the Deputy for his very important question in this area. Tomorrow, the general scheme of pregnancy loss leave will undergo pre-legislative scrutiny at the Oireachtas Joint Committee for Enterprise, Tourism and Employment, and the committee will furnish a report on the Bill to me. We continue to work with the committee and indeed the Oireachtas, and particularly the women's caucus in the Oireachtas on drafting of the legislation. I hope to be in a position next year, hopefully after the first quarter, to come forward with the legislation. It is a complex area, and that is one of the key issues we have to be careful about because we are interacting with two different Departments, mine and the Department of children run by the Minister, Deputy Foley, and we are just trying to ensure there are no unintended consequences. We have a good pathway. The committee has been excellent as has the women's caucus. Some have provided exceptional testimony. One thing I will never forget is the afternoon I was in Seanad \u00c9ireann, and I heard so many women Senators come forward with real-life personal testimony of what they went through in their respective lives. It was really touching. We all have a huge amount of work to do on to support women, particularly in the workplace, who go through so many of these challenging emotional life events in silence. That is one critical issue. I hope we get the conversation going, as well as getting the legislation through. If we get the conversation going, we can better support women in the workplace, and indeed, their families as well."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an D\u00e1il ar athl\u00f3 ar 11.19 p.m. go dt\u00ed 9 a.m., D\u00e9 C\u00e9adaoin, an 11 Samhain 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The D\u00e1il adjourned at 11.19 p.m. until 9 a.m. on Wednesday, 11 November 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Maternity Leave"}]}}]},"contextDate":"2026-11-10"},{"debateRecord":{"house":{"showAs":"Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation, and Taoiseach","committeeCode":"select_committee_on_finance_public_expenditure_public_service_reform_and_digitalisation_and_taoiseach","houseCode":"dail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/committee\/dail\/34\/select_committee_on_finance_public_expenditure_public_service_reform_and_digitalisation_and_taoiseach","chamberType":"committee","houseNo":"34"},"chamber":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/def\/committee","showAs":"Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation, and Taoiseach"},"lastUpdated":"2026-11-10T03:19:32+00:00","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/select_committee_on_finance_public_expenditure_public_service_reform_and_digitalisation_and_taoiseach\/2026-11-05\/debate\/main","formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/select_committee_on_finance_public_expenditure_public_service_reform_and_digitalisation_and_taoiseach\/2026-11-05\/debate\/mul@\/main.xml"},"pdf":null},"date":"2026-11-05","counts":{"contributorCount":14,"divisionCount":2,"debateSectionCount":1,"questionCount":0,"billCount":1},"debateType":"debate","debateSections":[{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/select_committee_on_finance_public_expenditure_public_service_reform_and_digitalisation_and_taoiseach\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_2","debateType":"debate","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/98","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/98\/dail\/3","houseCode":"dail","stage":"3","isBillStage":true,"showAs":"Finance (No. 2) Bill 2026: Committee Stage (Resumed) (D\u00e1il)"}},"showAs":"Finance (No. 2) Bill 2026: Committee Stage (Resumed)","counts":{"speechCount":438,"speakerCount":11},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Shay Brennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Shay-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Shay-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach We will continue from where we ended yesterday evening and that is with section 25. There is an amendment in the Minister's name, amendment No. 15. We will begin with the Minister of State speaking to amendment No. 15. We will then open the floor for indications."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"NEW SECTION"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister of State at the Department of Finance (Deputy Robert Troy) I move amendment No. 15: In page 32, between lines 35 and 36, to insert the following: \u201cAmendments to certain provisions relating to General Block Exemption Regulation 25. (1) The Principal Act is amended\u2014 (a) in section 508Z\u2014 (i) in subsection (1), by the substitution of \u201c30 June 2027 or such later date as may be specified by the Minister for Finance in an order made by him or her under section 25(2) of the Finance (No. 2) Act 2026 \u201d for \u201c31 December 2026\u201d, and (ii) in subsection (2), by the substitution of \u201cyear of assessment 2027\u201d for \u201cyear of assessment 2026\u201d, and (b) in section 600R, by the substitution of \u201c30 June 2027 or such later date as may be specified by the Minister for Finance in an order made by him or her under section 25(2) of the Finance (No. 2) Act 2026 \u201d for \u201c31 December 2026\u201d. (2) (a) Paragraph (b) shall apply where, in accordance with Article 108(4) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union and having regard to Council Regulation (EU) 2015\/1588 of 13 July 2015 on the application of Articles 107 and 108 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union to certain categories of horizontal State aid, the European Commission adopts regulations (in this paragraph referred to as \u201cthe regulations\u201d)\u2014 (i) declaring certain categories of aid compatible with the internal market in application of Articles 107 and 108 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union,and (ii) providing that rules set out in the General Block Exemption Regulation may continue to be applied to tax schemes existing on 31 December 2026 that are compatible with the General Block Exemption Regulation. (b) Where this paragraph applies, the Minister for Finance may, as he or she considers necessary and appropriate, by order provide for either or both of the following: (i) that the date referred to in section 508Z(1) of the Principal Act as the date on which the period of application of relief under Part 16 of that Act shall expire shall be such date as is later than 30 June 2027 (but in any case, not later than the earlier of such date as may be provided in the regulations or 31 December 2027) as the Minister for Finance considers appropriate and specifies in the order; (ii) that the date referred to in section 600R of the Principal Act as the date on which the period of application of section 600M of that Act shall expire shall be such date as is later than 30 June 2027 (but in any case, not later than the earlier of such date as may be provided in the regulations or 31 December 2027) as the Minister for Finance considers appropriate and specifies in the order. (c) Where an order under paragraph (b) is proposed to be made, a draft of the order shall be laid before D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann and the order shall not be made unless a resolution approving of the draft has been passed by that House. (d) In this subsection, \u201cGeneral Block Exemption Regulation\u201d has the meaning given to it by section 488(1) of the Principal Act. (3) Subsection (1) shall apply on and from the date of the passing of this Act.\u201d. Amendment No.15 inserts a new section. Part 16 of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997 provides relief for investment in corporate trades. The reliefs are the employment investment incentive, the start-up relief for entrepreneurs and the start-up capital incentive. They are designed to help small and medium-sized enterprises attract equity-based risk finance investment from individual investors by allowing those investors to claim income tax relief on qualifying investments. Chapter 6A of Part 19 of the 1997 Act provides the legislative basis for relief on investments in innovative enterprises, known as angel investor relief. The relief is capital gains tax relief for individuals who invest in innovative start-up SMEs. The reliefs are state aid that come under the terms of EU Regulation No. 651\/2014, known as the state aid general block exemption regulation. The general block exemption regulation, GBER, declares specific categories of State aid compatible with the internal market if they fulfil certain conditions. Such aid is exempt from the requirement of prior notification to and approval by the European Commission. The GBER is being revised. A new regulation is planned to be adopted by the end of this year and is expected to come into force on 1 January 2027. Recognising the importance of these reliefs for small businesses, it is intended to extend them in their current form for a further year to 31 December 2027. Transitional rules in the current GBER allow for a six-month adjustment period between the expiry of the current regulation and the anticipated introduction of a new one. At present, these reliefs can be extended only to 30 June 2027. Engagement with the European Commission as the new GBER is finalised has indicated that reliefs of this nature will continue to be considered an acceptable form of State aid under the transitional rules of the current regulation and the new regulation, and will remain compatible with the Internal Market until 31 December 2027. On that basis, it is expected that a further extension of these reliefs to 31 December 2027 may be provided for by order once the proposed new GBER comes into force. This will ensure that the reliefs remain available in their current form until the end of 2027. Once the new regulation is adopted, further potential amendments will be examined in the context of budget 2028."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty To clarify, is the amendment primarily an extension of the sunset clause by a number of years, with everything else remaining the same? When was the last evaluation of the employment and investment incentive scheme, EIIS, carried out, and is another due?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy It is an extension of the sunset clause by 12 months. An evaluation was carried out in 2024, details of which I will be happy to share with the Deputy after the meeting."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Is another evaluation due? Is there a three-year cycle? Will there be an evaluation next year?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy It is a five-year cycle."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty The sunset clause is being extended for 12 months, but the scheme will not be reviewed for another two years or so. Is the policy intent that it will be extended again in next year's Finance Bill? If so, why is it not being extended for two years?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Extending it for one year gives us an opportunity to look at the new GBER that will come from the Commission later this year. As I said, that will give potential to look at further amendments or extensions as part of budget 2028, but I cannot confirm what it will entail today."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I understand that. Am I correct in saying that the policy direction of the Department is that the EIIS will continue in some form beyond the end of next year?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy That is correct."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Will I take the vote on the amendment at this point or open up the section for discussion? Does anybody wish to speak on section 25?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I wish to speak on the section. This concerns the research and development tax credit. I support research and development. but I have argued that the credit needs to be reshaped to support SMEs in particular. Given the scale of the tax expenditure, which is probably one of the largest in the State, it is important that the Minister put on record the rationale for the further enhancement of the research and development tax credit. I have argued for some of these changes, particularly payment in one year. Will the Minister put on record the intention behind the changes and their impact? I support research and development and the collaboration between business and third level institutions, which part of this section seeks to enhance, but I want to tease out some of the issues afterwards."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Section 25 amends sections 766, 766C and 766D of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997, which relate to the research and development tax credit regime. Research and development is a key driver of economic growth and high-value employment. Research and development supports are critical to Ireland's continuing competitiveness in a challenging global environment. Following last year's review of the research and development tax credit, and continuing the work set out in the research and development tax credit and innovation compass, a number of enhancements to the credit are being introduced in the Bill. The existing subcontracting limits for universities and institutes of higher education and unconnected third parties are being increased to 20% and \u20ac200,000. This enhancement recognises the importance of supporting collaboration between businesses and third level institutions and of enabling access to external resources, facilities and expertise to advance in-house research and development work. The first-year payment threshold has been increased from \u20ac87,500 to \u20ac105,000. This means that the first \u20ac105,000 of a research and development corporation tax credit can be paid in full in the first year of the claim, rather than being spread over the normal three-year payment window. Provision is also being made such that a company which specifies that the second or third instalment of its research and development tax credit is to be treated as an overpayment of tax can take that instalment into account when calculating preliminary tax. This measure and the increase in the first-year payment threshold will provide a cash-flow benefit to claimant companies. A new provision will allow claimant companies to increase their qualifying cost base by 5% of qualifying research and development wage costs, subject to the company having incurred at least that amount of non-qualifying expenditure for the purposes of the trade. The measure recognises that companies that are active in research and development incur additional supporting costs that do not qualify as research and development expenditure. This provision will operate by reference to the existing measure of qualifying research and development wage costs and should be an administratively simple way to provide additional support. Committee members will be aware that a further measure was announced in the budget to provide for circumstances where if a clinical trial is regulated, that fact may be used to satisfy the requirement that activities be undertaken to resolve a scientific or technological uncertainty. This is intended to recognise research and development work undertaken by Irish companies as part of global trials and to reduce the administrative burden on companies in demonstrating that they meet the qualifying criteria. It was intended that this amendment would be introduced on Committee Stage. However, due to capacity constraints, arising in part from ongoing industrial action, it has not been possible to settle the legislation in time. It will now be introduced on Report Stage. I am aware, however, that departmental officials have provided a briefing note to the committee setting out the detail of the measure, which I trust will facilitate discussion. The enhancements to the research and development tax credit regime uphold the Government\u2019s continuing commitment to support companies of all sizes that are active in research and development, recognising both their direct contribution to economic activity and employment and the wider spillover benefits for local economies and the education sector. They maintain the Government\u2019s focus on enterprise support for productive and innovative businesses in the State."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Does anyone wish to come in?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Yes, I want to come in on some of this. The research and development tax credit is an important offering in our enterprise policy. We particularly need to try to drive more research and development within our SME sector. The level of this tax credit that goes to the large multinationals is shocking, to say the least, compared with the small amount that goes to the majority of companies out there. There are serious issues in this regard. Companies will detail over and over again how they feel that the system is too bureaucratic. There is a high level of risk in claiming the credit for something they believe to be research and development, only to be deemed ineligible according to Revenue. There is something lacking in this regard, whether it is understanding from companies or otherwise. Some companies do this and book their expenditure in that way but later find out that it is not eligible. Let us remember that the research and development tax credit amounts to 35%. Companies also get a 12.5% deduction in corporation tax. It is quite a significant amount of money. If they end up ineligible, their cash flow projections can be thrown up. There is a huge risk. Some companies do not even apply for the credit because the risk is too high, even though they are carrying out research and development. I have a couple of questions on this. With any policy, particularly one that costs us more than \u20ac1 billion each year, we have to continue to evaluate it, look at the statistics and determine how it is working and where it needs to be tweaked. I am sure that the Minister of State\u2019s officials have done that, but the committee needs to do it also and assess the appropriateness of the way the tax credit is operating into today\u2019s modern era. I want to look at the statistics relating to this tax credit. We have the statistics for 2023, but not for 2024. Is that correct?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy We have the headline figure for 2024 but we do not have the detailed breakdown. Revenue has yet to publish it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty This is the finance committee. If we take our job seriously, we are supposed to sign off on a section that has the impact of a tax reduction of nearly \u20ac1.5 billion for companies. Detailed statistics on this issue were supposed to be published, from my understanding, in June. It is now November. Why do we not have the detailed statistics to inform this debate?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Revenue has stated that, leading into the first half of 2026, the corporation and capital tax unit of Revenue\u2019s statistics, economics and reporting branch experienced a significant turnover of experienced staff. Due to this decrease in capacity, work not deemed critical, that is, work without statutory deadlines, work with less relevance to the budget cycle or work that was not necessary to run future statistical cycles, was deprioritised. The unit still provided costings and information on the 2024 research and development statistics in response to specific queries from the Department of Finance via Revenue\u2019s legislative services. It is envisaged that the statistics on the research and development tax credit will be published in November \u2013 we are in November now, obviously, but I am referring to later in the month - with other deprioritised publications to follow throughout November and December. However, due to ongoing industrial action, work with statutory deadlines and work necessary for the Finance Bill and future statistic cycles will be prioritised over the research and development statistics and other deprioritised publications and work streams. That is the note from Revenue."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty At every Finance Bill, I have said that I have the height of respect for Revenue. I definitely do. This, however, is not acceptable. It is one of the biggest tax expenditures we are dealing with. There have been changes to this tax expenditure. Will the detailed statistics, which were meant to be published in June, well before any industrial action - let us knock that on its head - capture the increase in the rate of the research and development tax credit?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I have two indications. I call an Teachta Nash, followed by an Teachta O\u2019Callaghan."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ged Nash Everyone supports the principle of the research and development tax credit. We in the Labour Party are long on the record stating that it needs to be targeted more towards the SME sector because, over the years, this credit has been managed as a sweetener for large multinational corporations. They are disproportionately benefiting from it. Over the years, we have proposed changes to ensure that the research and development tax credit would be of greater utility among the SME base. There is a serious problem with innovation and productivity in the indigenous enterprise base. As part of our industrial strategy, we need a new mechanism or approach to make sure that the take-up of the credit is improved among the indigenous SME sector. I agree with Deputy Doherty\u2019s remarks. This is one of the most significant tax expenditures we deal with every single year. It has been well flagged that the system is not doing what it might to ensure that the regular reviews, which we should require of tax expenditure, are being carried out at the required level. We can only manage what we measure. If this is not seen as a priority for Revenue, the Department of Finance, the Minister of State and his colleague, the T\u00e1naiste, need to make sure it is a priority. A significant amount of taxpayers\u2019 money is invested in this scheme. I want to be associated with the remarks made by Deputy Doherty in that regard. Will the Minister of State put on the record the future plans over the duration of the Government to modify, amend or change the system to make it more attractive and user-friendly, for want of a better description, for the indigenous SME base?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I call an Teachta O\u2019Callaghan. He will be followed by an Teachta Boyd Barrett. We will it bring it back to the Minister of State at that point."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cian O'Callaghan I agree. As an economy, one of the risks we have is that we do not have the necessary level of productivity and innovation in our indigenous sector compared to the multinational sector. There is no doubt that the low take-up of the research and development tax credit, including the barriers to its take-up, among SMEs need to be addressed as part of our efforts to improve productivity in our indigenous sector. This is important for the future of our economy. We do not solely have an issue of reliance on corporation tax from a small number of multinationals; we also have not sufficiently developed productivity in other sections of our economy. This is one of the ways we could do that. The view of the Social Democrats is that this is an area of priority. It is critical that we have good information on it. Does the Minister of State agree or disagree with Revenue\u2019s decision to deprioritise this? If he disagrees and believes this is a priority, what is he going to do about it?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett This is an issue I have a big interest in. I have raised it on a number of occasions over the years. To what extent is there any evaluation of the social benefit of the research and innovation that is being carried out by the beneficiaries of the credit? The latest figures for this credit are \u20ac976 million and it was over \u20ac1 billion the year before that in 2023. I do not know if the Minister of State gave out the latest figures. The estimated or projected cost of this new change - the expansion of the credit - is \u20ac118 million. Will the Minister of State elaborate on exactly what this additional measure is doing, if he has not already done so? I apologise if he has done so - I am not on this committee, but I was made aware that it is being discussed now. We are talking about approximately \u20ac1 billion being given out, with the vast majority of it going to multinational corporations that are already obscenely profitable. To my mind, there is a trade-off here that needs to be examined and evaluated properly. Would it be more beneficial to give some or all of that money not to SMEs but to research and development in our public universities? There are ongoing campaigns by researchers - the actual people who do research - to be paid more than a living wage. There are 10,000 of them in our universities who live in poverty. The people who do research in universities are funded on the basis that they are doing something useful for our society. It is publicly funded research. In advance of the budget, we costed that it would cost \u20ac330 million to increase the current level of stipends, which is at best \u20ac25,000 a year for researchers, to \u20ac30,000 for all researchers. It would cost approximately one third of what the Government is giving away, mostly to the multinationals, which are getting a number of other tax reliefs to the extent that it massively writes down their tax liability in a range of other areas, thereby bringing their effective tax rate well below the nominal headline percentage. It has been well documented over the years how far south of the actual headline rate of corporate taxation the actual amount of tax paid by many multinational companies is. This is another big handout for them. Is this of real benefit to our society? Would we be better off funding our researchers in universities and closing the funding gap in universities, rather than giving this to a handful of incredibly profitable multinationals? What are they doing for it? We should be looking at and evaluating not just whether they pass certain criteria but also whether those criteria include social benefit. Are the things they are claiming for society actually useful? A lot of it is in the area of software, apps and social media. To what extent is this actually good for our society? Is the stuff we are incentivising them to do by giving them hundreds of millions in tax relief actually good for our society? Is some of it potentially really bad for our society? Certainly there are cases where the money given to them would be far better directed at things that would be considered socially beneficial. That is my concern. We need to fundamentally review this. It amounts to a big giveaway to obscenely profitable companies with questionable benefit to our society, when we could be giving that money to research and development in public universities."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy I thank the Deputies for their questions. Most of them will acknowledge that our research and development offering is a critically important part of our enterprise policy. It is a major attraction in our ability to attract foreign direct investment, FDI. Regardless of whether we like FDI companies, we must accept that they are major employers in this country, not just in Dublin but right across our regions. I will come back to Deputy O'Callaghan's point on the 2024 data, but the most recent detailed data available to us - in respect of 2023 - show that the research and development tax credit was claimed by over 1,800 companies that collectively employed 253,000 people in quality and real jobs. Those companies paid over \u20ac10 billion in corporation tax in that year, so there is a benefit to society. One of the best things one can do for a person is give them a good quality job to give them the ability to provide for themselves. Corporation tax is also very beneficial to society. It is through our corporation tax that we are able to fund our social welfare system and our investment in education and health. From a societal perspective, it is quite beneficial. It is not always a case of one or the other. According to figures from the Department of further and higher education, the Government directly funded \u20ac1.1 billion of research and development in 2024. That does not include indirect support in the form of research and development tax credits. It is fair to say that Ireland needs both academic and industrial research and development. I do not think it should be suggested that one should be a substitute for the other. Both have a very important role in supporting innovation-based economic growth. The goal of getting more SMEs to participate in and avail of this tax credit has influenced some of the changes over recent years. The Revenue statistics report shows that in 2023, there was an increase in SMEs engaging in the regime. Evidence points to these changes having an effect, particularly among smaller claimants. In 2023, 1,804 companies claimed research and development tax credits. This was up from 1,631 in 2022, which was the first significant increase in claimant numbers in over a decade. Within this increase in the total number of claimants, there were 73 additional micro-sized companies, 58 additional small companies, 19 additional medium-sized companies and 23 additional large companies. Clearly, we would like to see much more. This is something we have to continually keep under review to make it as simple as possible for SMEs and micro-sized companies to avail of the credit. I understand that a body of work has been done by Revenue to educate and support companies to avail of this tax credit. Revenue has provided a suggested file layout, which is a template that can be used by claimants to ensure their research and development claims meet the administrative requirements in respect of documentation to support claims, perhaps removing some of the fear factor. Revenue has also published how-to videos and information on common errors in the filing of returns to assist companies in correctly completing the form. In relation to the specific questions about the data available, I have asked Revenue officials if we could have that available in advance of Report Stage. I do not want to make a promise that I cannot stand over or keep, but they have said that if there are specific questions that the committee would like to raise, they can endeavour to have answers to those questions in the event that all of the data is not available. I hope that is helpful to Deputies."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I ask anybody who wants to come back in to indicate. Glaoim ar an Teachta Doherty."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty First, it is just not acceptable that we do not have the data for 2024. The publication date of this was in June. I do not understand how it was deprioritised. Is it our biggest tax expenditure? It is costing approximately \u20ac1.5 billion. There may be others in terms of income tax but-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy It is the biggest corporation tax."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty It is the biggest corporation tax expenditure. It is massive and let us be clear about that it is heavily concentrated in relation to the multinational sector. It is not acceptable that the report was not published before the Bill. Is it going to be published before Report Stage? To make a more general point, I strongly believe in the role of committees and in the finance committee doing its work properly, but it has to be treated with respect. I say that genuinely. I understand the pressures of staff turnover and all the rest but unless the Department thinks it is just a rubber stamp and all the rest, and the Government has the majority and so on and so forth, as the Opposition, we have to interrogate this and we sometimes have to put it on the record. We know that in terms of disputes and that is why it is important that the Minister of State reads out the statement because what is actually said during the Committee Stage debates is sometimes taken into account in terms of the intention of Government. That is why the record is always important. This is not good enough. We are going to go on to the next section, which should really be a stand-alone Bill in terms of the individual investment accounts. This is what was published this morning. We are sitting in the finance committee and the economic assessment of those individual accounts was published this morning. We are dealing with it now. Are we going to adjourn to read these 40 pages of an economic assessment, or are we supposed to deal with a significant part of the Finance Bill without having read this? This is an insult to the committee. I am not sure if even the Minister of State has had a chance to read the report published by the Department of Finance today. That is taking the committee for granted. We should not be doing that. The Minister of State should be informed of the information or at least have the ability to access it. Statistics are important. I asked a question and I have follow-on questions from that. I asked a question in relation to the 2024 statistical reports that were to be published in June that we still do not have. I want to know whether we will have them before Report Stage. Will they capture the increase in the research and development tax credit that took effect in the year of assessment, 2024, which moved the rate from 25% up to 30%? I am conscious that people will have up to 2025 to claim that tax credit but will part of that be captured in those detailed accounts?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett While it is absolutely a social benefit for people to have jobs and there is no doubt that jobs are generated by the FDI sector, it is pretty much a mainstream consideration and view that the Irish economy is dangerously dependent on a relatively small number of multinational corporations. That is a vulnerability. It is not just the socialist left or whomever who are saying there is a concern over the vulnerability we have to a potential global downturn affecting a small number of multinational companies that have a very big impact on the well-being of the economy. Surely we are in a race against time to diversify the economy from that vulnerability and over-dependence on a small number of companies. It is self-evidently the case and economic think tanks of pretty much every variety have said it is the case. Surely a big part of diversifying our economy and moving away from that over-dependence and vulnerability is ramping up our indigenous research and development capacity. A huge part of that is in our universities and institutions of higher education. The Minister of State can correct me if I am wrong but as I understand the research and development credit, 75% of it is claimed by the big companies. The expenditure they can claim against includes the wages and salaries of the people in their companies. Those are often very high salaries and, in the case of some of their top executives, incredibly high. Let us contrast that with approximately 50% of people working in higher education in this country being on precarious, part-time contracts or effectively zero-hour contracts in many cases, or postgraduate researchers existing on \u20ac25,000 or less, who come in year after year saying they are living in poverty and asking how they are to sustain themselves. I am on the further education committee and we had all the heads of the universities coming in saying there is a serious problem with the funding gap for further and higher education, which is in the region of a couple of hundred million euro. There is a real problem, but the Government has chosen to give \u20ac118 million extra in tax breaks to fantastically profitable multinational companies that, because of their dominant position in our economy, are creating a vulnerability. This brings the tax breaks up to \u20ac1 billion. I just do not understand why we go further down that road. They are not going to leave if we do not give them an extra \u20ac118 million because they are making massive profits. Surely that money would be better spent, and maybe some more of that almost \u20ac1 billion should be redirected towards, enhancing our own research and development capacity, lifting our researchers out of poverty, and closing the funding gap for further and higher education rather than giving it again to fantastically profitable multinationals."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cian O'Callaghan This issue is very serious. By international standards, our public investment in research and development in universities is very low. At the same time, we have a low level of productivity and innovation in our SME sector, which leaves us badly exposed as a country. All of this is effectively masked by a very strong multinational sector. That is fine as long as that remains strong and that corporation tax keeps rolling in but if there are decisions by a few of those companies to reduce their operations, we will have a massive problem. In our long-term interest, while maintaining that investment, which is important, we need to also build up our indigenous sector. We need more investment in research and development at SME level. That needs to be encouraged through the research and development tax credit. We also, without a doubt, need more direct funding into universities for research and development. That would also offer good value for money because research and development at a university level is often be used by multiple companies and sectors and not just by private companies or the public sector. Investment in research and development can have a multiplication effect depending on the area and sector. Related to this is the fact we are coming to the end of 2026, and we do not have the report on the 2024 data that was due last June. We are discussing the finance Bill and this substantial tax relief. When are we going to get the report that was due last June? I asked the Minister of State specifically whether he agrees with the decision by Revenue to deprioritise this? He should tell the committee his stance on this. Does he have a stance on this? He has not answered that. Has he no stance or does he agree or disagree with the decision by Revenue to deprioritise this?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy I will try to come back and be as honest and direct with my answers as the questions have been. I am a long-time politician and I fully agree with the sentiments that have been expressed. Committees have an important role in scrutinising legislation. When I was an Opposition TD, I was an active participant in committees, so I agree with that. I also think it is important that relevant information is shared in a timely fashion. I will bring the frustrations of the committee back to the T\u00e1naiste and the Minister for Finance in relation to the publication of the data. The deadline should have been met in terms of June this year. I will request the T\u00e1naiste to endeavour to have that published in advance of Report Stage, but I honestly cannot give a commitment that it will be done. I am not going to make a liar out of myself here today, but I will take the frustrations of the committee back. Regarding some of the points in the data, Deputy Doherty asked about the increase from 25% to 30% and whether that will actually even be captured by the data due or overdue to be published. It will not all be captured because, as he will appreciate, that will depend on the filing period for companies that are participating in it. In fact, it is more likely the bulk of that data will not come until this year, to be honest."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Some of it will. That is the point."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Some of it will; that is correct. It is anticipated that most companies now file their returns at year end in a calendar year. On that basis, I do not imagine it will be hugely informative in relation to the increase from 25% to 30%, but Deputy Doherty is right that some of it definitely will. Regarding the number of people engaged in research and development, it is only the costs associated with people actually engaged in research and development that can be offset against the credit. I might be wrong in trying to portray Deputy Boyd Barrett as trying to insinuate that everybody can use this against all staff. They cannot. It is only people who are engaged in research and development. The number of individuals engaged in research and development from 2013 to 2023 increased by 65%. It is important for multinationals to engage in research and development and continuously be inventing and creating here in Ireland rather than elsewhere. I feel if new products and innovations are created here, there is a much better chance of keeping the larger investment and infrastructure here in this country. Frankly, I too would be worried and concerned in relation to an overdependency on corporation tax. We would be crazy if we were not. That is why a body of work has been done and is currently being done in supporting indigenous enterprises. That is why Enterprise Ireland has received increased funding again for the work it is doing with Irish businesses. That is why some of the amendments are being brought forward in relation to supports for investment in SMEs. That is why we want to see more investment and innovation in that space, but it is not one or the other. It has to be a combination of both. I believe that this research and development tax credit is a very important part of our economic model. As somebody who served previously as a Minister of State with responsibility for trade promotion and who engaged in trade missions across many countries, it is a very strong bow in our armoury when we are out selling Ireland and in our ability to attract FDI. I do not think we should forget that. Some people think FDI is bad and is dirty for some reason, but it is not. I am not saying everybody here is saying that, but if we ask the hundreds and thousands of people who depend on those jobs, they certainly appreciate the good-quality jobs that are there. It is not just the jobs themselves, but the many SMEs in smaller areas that benefit from these high-quality jobs. If we think back to the Covid period, a lot of people working in large corporations and office blocks who all of a sudden were working from home had a detrimental effect on the hospitality industry. It is not exclusively about the jobs here, but the supports they provide to a much wider element of our economy. The 2023 figures are the most up-to-date figures we have in terms of the breakdown of the claimants of the research and development tax credit. These show that of the 1,804 companies that claimed the credit, 574 were companies with less than ten employees, 608 had between 11 and 49 employees, and 397 were companies with 50 to 249 employees. Clearly, we want more and we want them to be able to avail of the tax credit in greater monetary terms as well."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Colm Burke I want to reinforce what the Minister of State has been saying about research and development. A concern was raised about the corporate sector and Ireland's dependence on it. Two of the top three taxpayers in the country are based in Cork and they employ a huge number of people. One of the companies, not necessarily one of the top three, that I have been dealing with recently has 2,000 people employed and over 1,700 are employed in research and development. The reason Ireland is attracting companies like that is because of the expertise that is here and because we are turning out people through our universities. That is why investment in our universities has been paying dividends and will continue to pay dividends. It is important that we do give support to research and development in every way possible because there is then a spin-off. As the Minister of State said, it is the smaller companies that are also encouraged by what is happening globally regarding getting involved in more research and development. Another issue that relates to smaller companies is how servicing these bigger companies provides a huge spin-off locally in an area where there is a big employer. While it might have a lot of people employed, there is also a huge economy around that company in relation to the supply of goods and services that are required in order for the company to function properly. Also, all of these companies are paying substantial local authority commercial rates, which are hugely helpful to the local economy. All of those issues add up. The important thing is to ensure we do everything possible to support the whole research and development area to make sure we keep it here in Ireland and continue to grow it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I want to raise a number of things. First, I want to move on from the statistics. The point I was making, which the Minister of State confirmed, is around the rate increase. There have been significant changes to the research and development tax credit over the last number of years. That is why I expected the detailed statistical reports would be available to us. I hope Revenue officials would be able to inform the Minister of State before this committee session is over whether they will be published before Report Stage or not. I take on board what was said regarding relaying that information back. The issue here is that in 2024, we increased the rate from 25% to 30%. In budget 2026 we increased the rate from 30% to 35%. That is a significant increase. It has gone up 10% from 25% to 35% in the space of two years. This statistical report would capture some but not all of it. As I said, most companies will file the following year and we will not see it until 2026, but we should have some of the detail. When the then Minister, Paschal Donohoe, came before this committee last year, and we increased the rate from 30% to 35% last year, he argued that the policy was working. He gave evidence to this committee in relation to the value of the R and D tax credit for microcompanies. He said it had increased over the period 2020 to 2023, because those were the statistics we had at the time. He said the total value of the tax credit for firms with fewer than ten employees, namely microcompanies, was \u20ac46 million and that that was an increase of 24% on where we were in 2020. We now know that is not true. My understanding is that revised figures published by Revenue showed that the tax credit for those companies was \u20ac31 million, which was a decline of 16% for microcompanies compared with 2020. I do not understand. I can go on, because the then Minister also said that companies with ten to 49 employees obtained \u20ac95 million when actually they did not; they obtained \u20ac71 million. He suggested that there had been an increase of 69%, which would be a huge increase. It was actually more modest, at 27%. He went on to say the value of credits for companies with between 50 and 245 employees had gone up by 51%; it had not. It had gone up by 12%. We have to be able to rely on the information provided. By the way, Mr. Donohoe put on the record the information he had available to him. I am not suggesting that he did otherwise. The information was revised. There is a question as to how the information was wrong in the first instance, and the fact that the then Minister genuinely believed the value of this tax credit for microenterprises had been increasing when actually it had decreased is significant. I would like to know how the data turned out to be substantially inaccurate. I know things get revised; this is quite a significant revision. How did that happen? How do we make sure it will not happen again? Will the Minister of State correct the record of the D\u00e1il? It is important to say that the information put on the record during the debate on the Finance Bill this time last year in support of increasing the rate to 35% was significantly and substantially inaccurate, even though it was the best information available at the time. I have other questions about this. I may just ask them now."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I think that is no harm."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I thank the Minister of State for putting on the record the information on how many companies are availing of the tax credit, but the number of companies is only one way we measure this. The value of the tax credit is another. What is the value of the tax credit based on the latest information and which year does that refer to? How much of that tax credit has gone to companies in scope for pillar 2? That means they have turnover of at least \u20ac750 million. Deputy Colm Burke was 100% right. I support the R and D tax credit but that does not mean we should just continue to increase it. The problem is that we need to encourage more of this money to flow into small and medium enterprises. We need to build up our indigenous base, and that is not happening in the way it should be. There are examples of how other countries have done this where they have a generous R and D tax credit for the SME sector. We do not follow that route. For example, Singapore allows companies to claim up to a 400% deduction on the first S$400,000 of qualified R and D spend. Austria offers SMEs 43.5%, the Netherlands offers SMEs 40% and Germany recently introduced an SME credit of 35%. Other countries are doing a targeted SME focus and we are not. We are missing a trick here. I have been making this point for a number of years. The value of the credit is important in terms of where that money is going. Even if we just look at the number of companies, Revenue statistics show that companies with fewer than 50 employees account for only 10% of the value of the R and D tax credit, despite the fact those companies make up 98% of Irish businesses. This tax credit is highly skewed towards the multinational sector. I am not arguing that the multinational sector should not get R and D tax credits; it is part of our offering, part of why they are here and part of our competitiveness. We need to hold on to our competitiveness and advantage with iron fists, but we also have to take a helicopter view of this in asking why, if this is the largest business tax expenditure, we are ignoring 98% of Irish businesses, which are getting only a sliver of the value of this? Will the Minister of State provide that information on the record and deal with the substantial point about a more focused targeting of a credit for SMEs?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy I have received confirmation that we will have the report in advance of Report Stage. That is one positive."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I thank the Minister of State."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy In relation to the change, to be fair, the Deputy did not say the then Minister, Mr. Donohoe, intentionally tried to mislead. He used the figures he had at the time. It happened due to a big change in how the credit operated in 2022, which caused a double-counting issue. The information has subsequently been set out straight and corrected in answers to parliamentary questions, but I am more than happy to give a detailed note on it to the committee. I understand a note was subsequently shared with the budgetary oversight committee but we cannot clarify whether that was shared with this committee. I am more than happy to do that after this meeting. The Deputy is right; the number of companies is only one parameter in terms of-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I might just ask one question of the officials because it is important from a record point of view. As I said, the then Minister did not deliberately do this, but the information provided to the committee last year is now wrong. Does the Minister of State accept that? Do the officials accept that the information I put forward is more in line with the revised statistics?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy I will give the Deputy the updated information now."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Perfect."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy The Deputy spoke about the number of claimants and the value of the claimants for 2023. Is that correct?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty That is a separate point. I was-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy I am updating the information. I am giving the value."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Okay, let us go."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy That was the question, was it not? There were 574 claimants for companies with fewer than ten employees. The cost of the R and D tax credit was \u20ac31 million. That was up from \u20ac29 million in 2022."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Are these 2023 statistics?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Yes. Of companies with a number of employees between 11 49, the number of claimants was 608. The cost of the credit was \u20ac71 million, up from \u20ac68 million in 2022. That was the Deputy's question, was it not?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Yes. The reference period was 2020 but we will let that go. Will the Minister of State provide the rest of the figures? Concerning the 397, what was the value for companies with between 50 and 249 employees?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy The number of claimants was 397 and the cost was \u20ac111 million. The number of claimants among companies with 250-plus employees was 225 and the cost was \u20ac764 million."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Of those 225, how many are in the scope of pillar two?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Companies dealt with by the large case division are expected to be largely in pillar two. The number of companies that were dealt with by the large case division of Revenue was 191. The first pillar two returns only began to be filled. We will not have definitives, but, more than likely, in the region of 191."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty But the Minister of State does not have a value for it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy The number of claimants is 225 and the cost for the credit is \u20ac764 million."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty What was the total cost of the credit for 2023?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy It was \u20ac976 million."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty That is a reduction. It was \u20ac1.3 billion or \u20ac1.4 billion."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy It was \u20ac1.158 billion in 2022. They had shown a higher number because of a double-counting issue, which is what the Deputy has raised and what was corrected. I am happy for the officials to go through it in more detail with the Deputy, if he wishes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty From the statistics that the Minister of State has given us, 191 companies are in the scope of pillar two."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Broadly, they are dealt with by the large case division. It is 191 of the 225 companies."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty There are just over 30 companies that are not in scope that have over 250 employees so we can assume that roughly 70% of the R and D tax credit is going to companies with turnover of over \u20ac750 million."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Broadly, yes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty That is where the problem lies. When we have micro-companies here that get \u20ac31 million and then we have \u20ac700 million going to companies that have turnover in excess of \u20ac750 million per year, that is the problem. That is why the second point I make is really relevant. By the way, these numbers are so out of date. I know they are for 2023. This has been turbo-charged since. This is based on an R and D tax credit of 25%. The Finance Bills have changed this significantly. This number is going to go significantly up and the beneficiaries will be those with turnover in excess of \u20ac750 million per year. I would make the point that there is a serious issue here. The Department needs to start focusing in on the SME sector. It needs to make this easier for people to claim. I have asked for an R and D light system for those and the Department needs to look at a targeted scheme for this sector. The reason the change happened in 2024 is because of the pillar two negotiations. Pillar two increased the effective tax rate for these companies to 15% and, as a quid pro quo , the Government said it would increase the R and D tax credit by 5% to reduce their tax liability to the State. It is what has happened. That is not thinking about the company up the road that is employing local constituents and does not have that level of turnover, is worried about claiming the credit in the first instances because of their cash flow issue and does not have a system in place that targets the support for them because every time the Department is looking through the prism of the multinationals. I am happy with an R and D tax credit for multinationals. I am not arguing with that. What I am saying is that the Department needs to focus in on a specific offering for the SME sector because it is not getting the value out of this."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy The point I will reiterate is that, in 2023, while the R and D credit was claimed by 1,804 companies, collectively those companies directly employ 253,000 people. Those are real jobs in real regions, towns and villages throughout this country, not to mention the indirect employment that is created by having those businesses located in Ireland. While Deputy Doherty focuses on the cost of such credit, and it is his prerogative to do so, what has not been mentioned by anyone bar myself at any time during this debate is that those companies paid over \u20ac10.5 billion in corporation tax after their credits were taken into account. There is significant investment of corporate tax. If the Deputy is on Leaders' Questions in 45 minutes' time, he will probably be looking for some of that money to be spent on particular issues or services in Ireland, which is his prerogative and right to do. It is an important source of revenue. While all sizes of company can engage with the R and D corporation tax credit, it is a given that I want to see more small or medium-size companies do so, but it is fair and right to acknowledge it is the larger companies that are generally in a position to undertake the more complex high-end R and D and it is important to recognise the benefits of such activities in developing knowledge-based human capital in Ireland. The collaboration between large enterprises and higher education institutes supports the development of graduates with state-of-the-art knowledge and practical expertise. When these researchers involved in the collaborations transfer from academia back to industry or when they gain the experience in multinationals and transfer into indigenous companies, there is real quality knowledge transfer which has many benefits to smaller Irish companies as well. We have developed an image and have created a successful global innovation hub, and the R and D tax credit regime has played a part in that success. I accept some of what the Deputy is saying, and he is saying it very genuinely, but we should not lose sight of the contribution and the return to the Exchequer that these companies are making on an annual basis, with the most recent figures for 2023 being \u20ac10.5 billion."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 25 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 26"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Amendments Nos. 16 to 24, inclusive, 26 to 31, inclusive, 33 to 35, inclusive, 38 and 39 are related and will be discussed together. First, I will ask the Minister of State to give an outline."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Can I ask-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Go ahead."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Following on from the discussion earlier on, we have this 50-page economic impact assessment which usually would be carried out before you would do this. It was done arseways this time. We are not going to have a chance to read 50 pages. It was published today. We are sitting in committee and asked to now deal with this section. Could the Minister of State give us an outline? I do not know if he has had a chance to read this economic assessment as well but could he give us a summary view of what the economic assessment said? I assume none of us on this side has had a chance to read this because we were in the committee when it was published."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ged Nash This is highly irregular, for a start. We do not have here the T\u00e1naiste and Minister for Finance, whose singular proposition this was. He is not here to promote it or defend it. There is no scarcity of the T\u00e1naiste when he wants to soft launch this document. He has done so on about 789 separate occasions now over the past few months. Until now, the detail has been really scant. This is a case of the T\u00e1naiste giving this committee the two fingers. I am interested in the Minister of State's view on how has this has been handled. It is highly irregular that a document of this nature would be published a matter of minutes before relevant amendments in relation to this scheme are to be debated and considered by the committee. I have submitted amendments on this. Deputies Doherty and Farrell have too. I am not sure Deputy O'Callaghan has but I have no doubt he will wish to speak on the matter. The proposition before us is very significant and will, certainly in the first few years, come at a net cost to the taxpayer. I have asked repeatedly in the D\u00e1il for sight of an economic assessment of this initiative. I have sought to make the T\u00e1naiste accountable for this. That is my job. That is my constitutional responsibility and the responsibility of this committee. We got this information this morning. Time and again, I have asked, through oral questions and written parliamentary questions, for an economic assessment of this initiative, which was, as I said, soft launched literally hundreds of times in the recent period. The T\u00e1naiste is not here to take questions on it. I am assuming he is preparing for Leaders' Questions. It is not the case that he is absent from the Oireachtas. He should be here this morning dealing with this, and he is not. That is offensive and an exercise in taking the mickey out of this committee and the Oireachtas, more generally. I wanted to put that on the record."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cian O'Callaghan I mean no disrespect to the Minister of State present but this is absolutely extraordinary because the T\u00e1naiste has talked about nothing else but this scheme at times over the past year. Time and again, he has talked repeatedly without information or details. He announced it without seeming to know what he was announcing. He had a conference with people from the investment sector last Easter. There has been extraordinary promotion of this scheme and then, when it is being discussed in this committee, he does not show up. We know he is present because he will take Leaders' Questions in the D\u00e1il in 40 minutes' time. It is not that he is absent from the country or unavailable. He is choosing not to be here when we are discussing the investment scheme he has never been found short on commenting all year long. It is very short on detail. It is extraordinary he has chosen not to be here for this. It is incredibly insulting to this process, the committee and the Oireachtas. For the economic analysis to land just this morning is also extraordinary. It is incredibly bad handling of this by the T\u00e1naiste. I would have thought that, having spoken time and again this year on this investment scheme, he would at least be at the Oireachtas committee when the legislation was being brought forward. In the strongest possible terms, I want to articulate my very low opinion of the way the T\u00e1naiste is handling this and this committee. It is bad for politics and it portrays the Government in a very poor light. He should reflect on that and engage properly on this."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach As Chair, I will briefly add my voice on this issue. I am concerned that the committee has received this information at this late stage. This is, I believe, the fifth finance Bill I have dealt with and I have not seen anything quite like this. I appreciate that the Minister of State, Deputy Troy, has come in to discuss the Bill. We had a conversation about this yesterday and I have no doubt we will have another conversation about it on a future date. There are a significant number of amendments and they are all in the Minister's name. I ask the Minister of State to introduce the amendments, after which we will open the discussion to the floor."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy As all of the Deputies have alluded to, it is not that the T\u00e1naiste is choosing not to be here. He takes Leaders' Questions on Thursdays and he will do so in the Chamber at 12 p.m. He is not ignoring the committee because is out doing constituency work in Wicklow. He has parliamentary responsibilities in the Chamber. I will be frank and honest in saying it would have been much more helpful if this had been published in advance of this morning's morning. It would have been more helpful to me and, I am sure, to committee members. That is being frank. I, too, would have preferred if it had been published before this morning. I will speak to it, however. This is not something that has been developed on the back of an envelope. An extensive body of work has been done on it over the past 12 to 18 months by officials, the T\u00e1naiste and me. There has been a series of consultations and engagements, including with the European Commission and other EU member states that are much further ahead on this journey than we are, companies that will offer this scheme, industry representative bodies, professionals and consumer representatives. Officials, the T\u00e1naiste and I have done extensive work on establishing a product which is about giving Irish citizens an opportunity to become more financially resilient. We can all agree that the disproportionate amount of savings people have in cash accounts are not in savers' best interests. We wanted to bring forward a product that would enable people to become much more financially resilient and would ensure not only that their hard-earned money is put to productive use but that they have an opportunity to become financially resilient and we not have inflation outpacing any gains they are making on their low-interest deposit accounts. Turning to the amendments-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cian O'Callaghan On a point of information, I want to clarify something the Minister of State just said. He said the reason the T\u00e1naiste is not here is that he is engaged in Oireachtas business. My understanding is he is at a media event with the Business Post at the moment."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach That is my understanding as well."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cian O'Callaghan Does it now show contempt for this committee that he has chosen not to be here for the Finance Bill and discussion of these investment accounts but to do another event instead, which is not Oireachtas business?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach For full clarity, we have taken an hour's break to facilitate Leaders' Questions between 11.45 a.m. and 12.45 p.m. given that numerous members of the committee will be engaging in Leaders' Questions."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy I do not keep the T\u00e1naiste's diary."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cian O'Callaghan Sorry, the Minister of State made a statement about the T\u00e1naiste not doing other stuff and that he was on the premises and doing Oireachtas work. That is not correct. He is off the premises and not doing Oireachtas work. He has scheduled something to not be here and he has made that decision. The Minister of State's comments are not correct and I am asking him to withdraw them, that is all."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy My understanding is that he is preparing for Leaders' Questions. If I was inaccurate, I apologise. It certainly was not my intention to mislead the committee."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty That is fair enough but, with respect, the information has been published that he is speaking at the Business Post event, powered by Grant Thornton. He is scheduled to speak at a time when the committee was hoping to meet and deal with the Finance Bill. The committee has been trying to schedule this Bill since August of last year. This has not come out of the blue. There is a deliberate decision here that is unprecedented. It is not the Minister of State's fault, but the Minister for Finance has always, in my time, prioritised the Finance Bill. My saying this is no reflection on any other event. There is a deliberate decision by the T\u00e1naiste not to appear here and to appear instead at another event that has nothing to do with the Oireachtas or the legislative process. That has left the Minister of State dealing with this. For the record, I will also be at Leaders' Questions at 12 noon, as will other members of the committee. We are suspending during Leaders' Questions to accommodate the T\u00e1naiste and members of the committee."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Colm Burke I understand that the T\u00e1naiste will be at Leaders' Questions at noon."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach That is also my understanding. We have a break for the hour of Leaders' Questions. What has occurred is quite a concerning development, to be perfectly honest. We have all been asked to speak at different things and do media interviews during the course of consideration of the Finance Bill. Indeed, I am sure there are people in this room who were also asked to speak at that event involving the Minister but who did not do so given the priority of the Finance Bill. The development is quite concerning, and I hope we hear back in greater detail from the T\u00e1naiste about his reasons for choosing to attend a different event rather than taking the Finance Bill."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Shay Brennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Shay-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Shay-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Shay Brennan Can we push this item back until later, or do we have to do things in order?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach No, we are unable to do so. I had to check this in advance. The Finance Bill has to proceed according to the schedule. As I have said before, there are an awful lot of moving parts with the Bill. We need to make sure that we are proceeding correctly and that there is no issue with the way in which the Bill is being considered. I do believe, however, that it is important that those who have concerns about this know that their concerns have been heard here. If anybody else wishes to indicate a desire to speak, they should do so, after which we will continue."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I made my point because, given the level of detail in the 50-page report, it is impossible to speed-read it. Are we going to get an overview of it, and can we ask some questions so the committee will be informed about its contents? I would have some questions even from looking quickly at the report."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach We have three things we need to deal with, just so we are all clear about what we are doing. First, we have a large number of amendments, some 19 or 20. We also have the section to deal with. We always deal with both the amendments and the related section. We also have the new report, which I, as Chair of the finance committee, have received only in the last number of minutes. It would be useful in this instance to begin with the economic impact assessment and then move on to the amendments."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy It is approaching ten minutes before we take a break anyway, so I suggest that, if the committee agrees, I come back and start on this at 12.45 p.m."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach On the economic side of things?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Yes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach On the economic impact assessment. I am happy to go with whatever the committee wishes to do. Most members, like the T\u00e1naiste, will have to go to Leaders' Questions, but what is proposed would give members a bit of time to read the report. I do not think we should waste the ten minutes available now. We should use them now, so we will proceed to the amendments. I therefore call on the Minister of State."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Section 26 of the Bill, as initiated, inserts a new Part 27A into the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997, which establishes the individual investment account, referred to in the legislation as an individual investment account. As this is a new measure, it may be of assistance to committee members if I speak to section 26 before addressing the proposed amendments. The goal of this account is to create a simple way for people to engage with investment, where it is appropriate for them to do so. It provides people with an avenue to access investment products and put their money to work to build up their own financial resilience. In summary, the individual investment account includes a tax-free threshold of \u20ac50,000, a flat tax of 1% on the value of the account above that threshold and a maximum contribution limit of \u20ac12,000 per annum, with no minimum contribution. There is no requirement for people to engage with Revenue when it comes to the normal administration of the account because that responsibility will fall to the provider. These accounts are designed to operate outside the scope of the taxes that currently apply to different investment products, including the deemed disposal rule for funds and insurance-based investment products. Those choosing to invest will have a broad range of options, including shares, bonds, funds, including exchange-traded funds, and insurance-based investment products. They will have a choice of a variety of providers, including banks, investment firms and life assurance companies. The new Part 27A, together with the consequential amendments provided for in the next section of the Finance (No. 2) Bill 2026, provides a framework for the tax treatment that applies to investments held within an individual investment account. Chapter 1 of the new Part provides for the necessary definitions, including the definitions of eligible investments and eligible providers. It also sets the contribution limit for the account at \u20ac12,000. Chapter 2 deals with the provision of individual investment accounts. It provides for the registration of eligible providers with Revenue in order to become qualifying providers and the inclusion of qualifying providers on a register maintained by Revenue. It also provides for the cancellation of registration where a provider ceases to be an eligible provider or fails to carry out their duties under the Part. It sets out the terms and conditions of the individual investment account, including its availability to Irish residents over the age of 18 and the requirement for an investor to make a declaration on the opening of the account. The chapter also makes provision for a change in residency of an investor, as well as penalties for providers where they allow an ineligible investment to be held in the account. Chapter 3 deals with the operation of investment account tax. It provides that income, profits, gains and losses arising in respect of the account are exempt from tax other than the tax provided for in this Part. The chapter provides for the tax-free threshold of \u20ac50,000 and the application of investment account tax at 1% to the average value of the account above that threshold. It sets out how the average investment account value on 31 December is calculated. It also provides for the treatment of excess contributions above the level permitted within the account, including the removal of such contributions from the account, the application of investment account tax to excess contributions and a penalty for providers who facilitate excess contributions. The chapter also provides for the operation of investment account tax by providers, including the collection of the tax from investors, the requirement for returns for individual investment accounts to be made by providers by 31 March, and the information that must be included in those returns. The chapter further provides for Revenue to raise assessments where required. Chapter 4 deals with transfers of individual investment accounts between providers, allowing an investor to make a request for a transfer of their account to a new provider. It provides that transfers can be done by way of an in-specie transfer of investments or a disposal of investments and the transfer of proceeds. The new provider is responsible for operating investment account tax and making the necessary returns to Revenue for the year in which the transfer takes place, and the transferor provider provides the necessary information at the time of transfer. Chapter 5 deals with a range of miscellaneous provisions in relation to the individual investment account, including providing for how the individual investment account operates on death and the obligations on providers to keep certain records. It also provides for the making of regulations in relation to the operation of the provisions of the Part, including in relation to the valuation process and the amounts that can be held in the account. This Part is introduced subject to a commencement order to allow time to put in place the operational arrangements and undertake the important communication and financial literacy work to ensure the public is aware of and, more importantly, understands what this account is and when it is suitable for people. In that context, the T\u00e1naiste announced on budget day that the accounts will be available from 1 July 2027. I am now proposing a number of amendments to the draft legislation which, in the main, are technical and drafting amendments to clarify the drafting and align the terminology used throughout the new Part. Three of the amendments, however, have a policy effect and I will address those first. The first group of amendments amends the definition of \u201celigible account provider\u201d in section 747H. The amendments remove undertakings for collective investment in transferable securities, UCITS, management companies, whether authorised in the State or in another EEA state, from the scope of providers who are permitted to offer individual investment accounts. UCITS management companies would be required to adopt additional regulatory frameworks to offer individual investment accounts and, as a result, it was considered more appropriate that the list of eligible providers be restricted to those that already have the appropriate regulatory framework in place. Several consequential technical amendments follow this amendment, including the deletion of related definitions that are no longer required. I want to be clear that these changes only affect which providers may offer accounts. They do not affect which investments may be held in an account and UCITS funds remain eligible investments under the provisions. The second main amendment amends the offence in section 747O(3) of making a false declaration on opening an investment account. As initiated, the offence applied to a declaration that \"is false\". The amendment provides that the offence now only applies to a declaration that the person \"knows to be false or misleading in any material respect\". This ensures that the offence is now directed at deliberate wrongdoing rather than inadvertent errors. The third amendment is the introduction of a new penalty provision to support the rule on contributions by individuals who have left the State. Section 747M deals with account holders who leave the State and become non-resident. Under the provisions, an individual is not permitted to make contributions to an individual investment account during a period of non-residence. Providers must stop accepting contributions once they have been notified that an individual has become a non-resident. At present, the Bill imposes a penalty on providers for other breaches. These include holding an ineligible investment in the account and accepting a contribution that causes the \u20ac12,000 contribution limit to be breached. Each of these penalties is \u20ac3,000. The obligation on providers in relation to non-resident account holders, however, is not currently backed by a similar penalty. This amendment provides for the introduction of a similar \u20ac3,000 penalty where a provider has been notified of a period of non-residence by an account holder, or otherwise becomes aware of one, and without reasonable excuse accepts a contribution from that individual. The introduction of this penalty provision should support the operation of the rule on the restriction of contributions by non-residents and ensure there are appropriate consequences for providers who fail to comply with their obligations. A further technical amendment is made to this section to the definition of \"period of non-residence\". The amendment replaces \"in the year of assessment\" with \"for the year of assessment\" to ensure the language is consistent in the provision. The remainder of the amendments are technical in nature and I will discuss them briefly. The first is a technical correction to section 747I(3)(a), which establishes the register of qualifying account providers. The amendment deletes a duplicate reference to \"of qualifying account providers\" to ensure the provision reads as intended. The next amendment removes the reference to \"on or after 1 January 2027\" from section 747L(1). The section establishes the right of qualifying account providers to provide and operate individual investment accounts and, at present, refers to providers doing so on or after 1 January 2027. Commencement of section 26 of the Bill is already provided for by ministerial order. The reference to \u201con or after 1 January 2027\u201d is therefore not required, as the commencement order alone determines when accounts may be provided and operated. The next technical amendments amend the language in section 747J, which deals with a provider\u2019s registration ending, and section 747Y, which deals with the death of an account holder. The amendments are being made to ensure the provisions operate as intended and that consistent language is used in both provisions. The remaining amendments align the terminology used where investments held in an account are sold. Across the Part, the language refers to investments being disposed of or otherwise liquidated. A small number of provisions used different terms and these amendments therefore ensure consistency in the language across the provisions. Section 27 of the Bill as initiated makes a number of consequential amendments to existing taxation provisions in the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997 and the Stamp Duty Consolidation Act 1999, arising from the introduction of new Part 27A by section 26. These amendments are necessary to ensure that the individual investment account framework operates as intended by the new Part 27A and allow the annual flat rate tax of 1% - investment account tax - provided for in the individual investment account to be the sole tax charging provision in relation to the income, profit gains, and losses arising within the account. Consequential technical amendments are made in respect of interest and dividend withholding taxes, universal social charge, investment undertaking and life assurance exit taxes, and encashment tax. In addition, to ensure parity between providers of the account who operate under different regulatory frameworks, an exemption from the 1% life insurance stamp duty levy on gross premiums is introduced for insurance-based investment products, which are held as eligible investments in an individual investment account. Technical amendments in respect of administrative aspects of the operation of Part 27A are also being introduced in section 27, including a new power of inspection for Revenue in relation to qualifying account providers, and in relation to the application of the existing penalty regime for returns to Revenue to apply to returns made for investment account tax. In regard to the amendments to section 27 of the Bill as initiated, I have only about two paragraphs to read out."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach That is fine. I just wanted to check."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy I am now bringing forward two minor amendments to section 27 of the Bill as initiated, which are drafting amendments to delete two definitions that are not necessary. The amendments remove the definitions of \"qualifying account provider\" and \"qualifying individual\", as they are not required to give effect to the amendment to section 246(3) of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997, which provides for an exemption from withholding tax for \u201cinterest paid in respect of an eligible investment held in an individual investment account.\u201d In summary, these amendments will ensure that the new individual investment account operates as intended and that the legislation is clear and consistent for providers, individuals and Revenue. I intend to introduce some further amendments on Report Stage, arising from engagement with stakeholders following the publication of the Finance (No. 2) Bill 2026. Additional time is required to work through this feedback and consider carefully how it could be addressed, where appropriate, in the legislation. Therefore, amendments will be proposed for introduction on Report Stage."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an Aire St\u00e1it. We will now break until 12.45 p.m. to accommodate Leaders' Questions. We will begin with our economic impact assessment and the questions regarding that. I understand that there will be an economist available in here during the break for anybody who has questions prior to that but then we will be going straight. We will be questioning here, but I am trying to be helpful. We will begin with the economic impact assessment, so everybody is aware. We will then go into the amendments that the Minister of State had outlined. We will go into questions on those and then we will go into the section. I will be back as quickly as possible but I have Questions on Policy or Legislation, so I might be a few minutes late. We will now suspend."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an su\u00ed ar fionra\u00ed ar 11.48 a.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 12.51 p.m."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sitting suspended at 11.48 a.m. and resumed at 12.51 p.m."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Shay Brennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Shay-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Shay-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Shay Brennan) The Chair has asked me to say that she is delayed in the D\u00e1il and will be here shortly. On the economic impact assessment of the individual investment accounts, it was noted earlier that we only received the documents at some point this morning and may therefore not have had the time to fully analyse them. We have been offered a technical briefing by an economist from the Department. If that is acceptable to the committee, I propose to allow ten minutes for it. Is that agreed? Agreed. Is it agreed that we will go into private session? Agreed."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Chuaigh an roghchoiste isteach i seisi\u00fan pr\u00edobh\u00e1ideach ar 12.53 p.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds i seisi\u00fan poibl\u00ed ar 1.19 p.m."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The select committee went into private session at 12.53 p.m. and resumed in public session at 1.19 p.m."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Shay Brennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Shay-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Shay-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Shay Brennan) Would anyone like to pose any questions on the basis of what we just heard?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cian O'Callaghan I thank the Minister of State for the technical briefing. Is a major flaw of this economic assessment some of the assumptions and limitations that we just discussed? Is it a flaw to base the assessment on assumptions that we know are incorrect, including assuming that there is no inflation? We know that there is going to be inflation. The Department has produced a model that makes conclusions on the basis of the assumption that there will be no inflation in the next number of years. That is totally flawed. Does the Minister of State accept that? Does he also accept that it is wrong to assume that the returns will all come out as income and will then go into the economy and be subject to secondary taxes and revenue measures such as VAT and so forth? He knows that assumption is incorrect, does he not? That is not going to be the case. It is completely flawed. How can the Minister of State stand over that assessment when it is based on assumptions that are utterly flawed, as we all know and as the economic assessment itself states? How can he defend that?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Where do I start on this? I was going to ask some of the questions that have been asked by Deputy O'Callaghan. This has been dressed up very nicely. All that was missing was a little red bow. Let us deal with the facts. There is a cost to this measure. I am not opposed to the investment fund, but let us deal with the facts. There are a lot of assumptions contained in this. As we heard previously, certain things are not factored in. What is the actual tax foregone as a result of this investment fund? Can the Minister of State tell us what percentage half the population will have invested in this fund? What percentage will the wealthiest top 10% have invested in this fund? Let us be clear and call it what it is: this is a massive financial tax transfer to the most wealthy in society. The majority of the money the Minister of State estimates will go into these funds will be held by the top 10% in Irish society. Something like 6% will be held by 50% of the population. This will cost hundreds and hundreds of millions of euro. It is important we get that on the record. I will come back in with more questions."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ged Nash I will put some things on the record which are very important in our overall consideration of this scheme. I have previously engaged with the T\u00e1naiste on the tax expenditures involved, especially around the Financial Services Ireland assessment of tax foregone coming in at approximately \u20ac15 million in the early part of the operation of this scheme. The Minister of State can correct me if I am wrong, but that may not have taken account of the net scenario. The assumption seems to be that the full-year cost in terms of tax expenditure for year 1, the first full year of the operation of the scheme, will be approximately \u20ac12 million. Can the Minister of State confirm that? Cumulatively, over time this will be a significant transfer of wealth from the less well-off to those who are objectively better off. The narrative of the assessment goes into some detail on the cohorts in society - it also looks at the international comparators - in terms of who already engages in retail investment schemes. All the evidence internationally shows that in the countries we like to compare ourselves against, it is reasonable to assume that as it stands, those who are involved in retail investment are middle aged, middle class and male. We now have a system in place with the potential to widen access to tax-efficient savings and investment schemes to others. The experience globally suggests that these are the kinds of schemes that would continue to be enjoyed by middle-class middle-aged males from a certain socioeconomic group or groups. I want to put some of the assessment on the record. It says that \"IIA assets become increasingly concentrated towards the upper end of the wealth distribution over time.\" That is the objective of the scheme really, is it not? It is about the Government picking winners and saying it wants them to invest their money and it is comfortable with them doing well. The assessment continues: By 2046, the top two deciles together account for 72.9 per cent of total holdings ... [and] aggregate IIA holdings among the top decile rise from 3.2 times those of the bottom half combined in 2027 to 8.4 times in 2046. The evidence is clear and the assumptions are fairly accurate that this will be very much a minority sport. The assessment looks at the question of equality and regressivity and observes that the \"distribution of benefits may remain uneven.\" I suggest that rather than speculating that they \"may\" remain uneven, we can have no doubt that they will continue to be uneven. There is a deadweight effect as well, with a danger of reallocation of existing resources. One of the propositions of the scheme was that it would encourage more people to be involved in retail investment in a tax-efficient way. Like other colleagues, I have no ideological opposition to that. I think it is a good thing when people are encouraged, in an efficient way, to save for the future. We know the situation with bank deposits in the country and we know that people are not earning an awful lot from them in interest and so on. I have no issue whatever with a scheme of this nature. It is about how it is designed. The assessment says that an evaluation of the fund is proposed after five years. I suggest that it be done after three years so that we can keep a close eye on this. We will return to this when we are dealing with the amendments. I can find no reference whatsoever in the economic assessment to the impact of fees. The impact of fees and the management of these accounts will be significant. We know this for a number of reasons. We can draw comparisons with the pensions industry. We know that annual management charges on private Irish pensions are among the highest in the world. They have a very significant net effect on the value of somebody\u2019s pension pot over the course of their working life and by the time they get to retirement. There is no reference whatsoever to that, no assessment whatsoever and no examination of the impact of fees. I draw the Minister of State's attention - I will do so in more detail when we deal with the amendments - to a report from Davy last week which basically said that anything between \u20ac100 million and \u20ac400 million in fees will be generated from the management of these accounts over the coming period. Its message to those who are developing these products was that they should get on board because there is a killing to be made here - those are my words \u2013 but that killing will be made at the expense of people who are investing in these schemes. I am absolutely amazed there is no reference to fees. It is going to have an impact on the operation of this scheme and it will also have an impact on participation rates. Can we not have some form of transparency because it is lacking in the pensions industry? In 2021, I introduced legislation, which I will revisit, on how fees are structured, annual statements of fees and what people can expect in terms of what their fees might be. I am not dictating what those fees should be but transparency and shining a light on these fees puts a focus on the industry and makes sure the fees are at least competitive and arguably fair."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I have no other indications so I call on the Minister of State to respond to those remarks when he is ready."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy I apologise; this assessment should have been published before this morning. We wanted to make sure there was a technical assessment to give committee members the broadest information possible. I thank the Chair for facilitating that. The economic impact assessment is based on the EU Commission and its assessment is based on current price levels. That is the model that was chosen for this. We know that the establishment of an investment account is something that has been undergoing considerable consideration, consultation and engagement for the best part of 18 months. It is a recommendation in the EU to deepen the capital markets and broaden participation into retail investment. We also know we have a significant culture of saving in cash accounts in Ireland. More than \u20ac180 billion is on demand deposit in Ireland currently. That is a disproportionate amount of people's hard-earned wealth and savings lying in a low-yielding deposit account, on which interest is lagging way behind inflation. That is having an impact. People are losing purchasing power with their hard-earned money. The objective of this policy and account is to support people to make their money work harder for them. If we look back over multiple decades, broad capital markets have consistently outpaced inflation. Research shows that a simple and easily accessible account is key. We also know that from international best practice. A simple and easily accessible account is one of the best ways to encourage people. That is why the account is designed in such a way. There is no minimum threshold for participation in this scheme because we want to ensure it is open to everybody. There is a maximum in the scheme to ensure the super wealthy cannot exploit it. There is a maximum of one account. However, we have to ensure it is open to the broadest range of people to avail of. All three Deputies on the opposite side have said they have no issue with this. Is it fair to say they think it is good to encourage people to participate and make their money work harder for them? I think we are largely on the same page in that regard. The account is designed to open up investment to new cohorts of people who historically have not invested in the capital markets. Another key part of ensuring we see a high uptake is an area in which I have particular interest and on which I focus, namely, financial literacy. People need to be educated about the benefits, but also about the risks because there are risks involved. It is not for people to think this will somehow be a great return in the short term. This is about making people financially resilient over the longer term and encouraging investment in the broadest sense among Irish citizens. On fees, providers will remain subject to existing consumer protection and disclosure requirements under MiFID II, the insurance distribution directive and the consumer protection code, including requirements on fees, charges and, most importantly, transparency. I agree with Deputy Nash that it will be important, particularly for people investing at the smaller end of the scale, that those investments will not be taken up by providers' fees. The fact that we are ensuring that the broadest range of institutions and providers can offer this product is another way of ensuring there will be a competitive offering. That is another way of keeping fees as low as possible. To Deputy Doherty's point that people in higher deciles will benefit more than people in lower deciles, it is fair to say that people who put more money into a savings scheme will get a greater return. That is a matter of fact. However, this is also about encouraging people in the lower deciles to start engaging in retail investment, possibly for the first time in their lives, and ensuring they have the capacity to do so. That is why the account is structured in the way it is. Deputy Nash made a point about gender breakdown. In the UK's account there are actually more women than men holding high-yield savings accounts. That could happen here. What will be important, apart from how the account is framed and structured, which we now know, is that there have been clear indications along the way of the path and direction the Government was taking. There was the retail roadmap in the summer, outlining the broad parameters. At that stage we said we would tighten up and announce the parameters and structure of the account in the budget, which we have done. I hope that answers the questions, but if there are more, I am obviously happy to take them."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cian O'Callaghan I asked the Minister of State specific questions and they were not answered. He gave a broad overview of his thoughts, and he touched on some topics. In terms of this economic assessment there are some fundamental flaws that I want him to address. The Department has produced today an economic assessment that makes projections about the costs of this scheme, its impact and the cost to the Exchequer. The Minister of State has made assumptions based on tax revenues that are going to come in as a result of this scheme. In making those assumptions it seems he has forgotten about the fees that will be taken out, which is incredible. Will he address that point? We do not want him to talk about transparency on fees and regulation of fees. That is an important area, and we will get to that. However, in the context of this economic assessment, how is it that the Minister of State and the Department produced an economic assessment and forward-looking projection that seems to forget about fees? Will he explain that? The second major flaw, as admitted in the economic analysis produced, is that there is no account for inflation. Will the Minister of State explain how he and his Department are doing an economic assessment looking to future years where inflation is just missing? Is this standard practice for the Department or is it just when it comes to this economic assessment that inflation is somehow missing from the assessment and analysis? How can he possibly stand over that? Third, I will read from the footnote on page 10, which states, \"This assumption is an important source of uncertainty in the model. By treating asset returns as available to support household consumption each year, the model may overstate the scale and timing of the associated second-round effects.\" There is no \"may\" about it. It does overstate the scale and timings associated with second-round effects. There is no question of that. The use of \"may\" is simply wrong. It continues that it will, \"consequently, produce a more favourable fiscal outcome. In practice, some returns are likely to be retained or reinvested within the [investment account] rather than withdrawn and used for consumption.\" Again, it is not \"are likely to be\". There is no question about this. The Minister of State knows this. I know this. Everybody knows this. Some returns will be retained or reinvested in the investment accounts rather than being withdrawn and used for consumption. Yet, he has produced an economic assessment that assumes that is not going to be the case. How can he stand over those three major flaws in his economic assessment? Is this the kind of treatment he expects for economic assessments and forward projections? Does he just forget to deal with things like inflation and fees and assume that everything is going to be available for consumption taxes and so forth, when he patently knows that is not the case?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ged Nash I have one issue. There is a fee-shaped hole in this assessment. I find it extraordinary that the question of annual management charges and fees has not been addressed in this report, because it is going to have an impact on consumer behaviour. It does, and it is proven. We see it in the pensions industry. I want to take the Minister of State back to a quote on the Davy report on the operation of the scheme and the potential for fees that appeared in The Irish Times recently. It stated that the proposal presented \"a potentially meaningful fee opportunity for providers able to capture the flow.\" That is fine. That is what the financial services industry does, namely provides professional advice to people. It is a regulated industry, and I have no questions there. An assessment is made in that report to the effect that cumulative fees based on a management charge of 0.25% to 1% in annual fees would be involved. Would the Minister of State agree that there will be cumulative fees of 0.25% to 1% annually on these products? Is that his assessment, or does he not have an assessment at all? I assume he does not, because it has not appeared in the document. It is a massive hole in the document and in the assessment, which is a matter of concern. It is an obvious area the assessment should cover and it neglects to do that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I am going to ask the questions again, because the Minister of State did not answer them. What will be the cost of this scheme over the next 20 years? What will be the cumulative cost of the scheme and how much tax will be forgone? How much of that will go to the top decile? Can the Minister of State clarify whether, in the context of the report, household wealth or income will be used to measure the deciles? How much of the money that will be invested in these schemes will be held by the bottom half of the population?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy To reiterate, the model used is a European Commission model that is based on current price levels. That is replicated in the model here. A number of countries have introduced similar savings schemes without doing any economic impact assessments in advance. That is the model we have opted to use. Certainly, there are some assumptions that are based on projections, which I understand tends to be the case when we are looking at something into the future. On Deputy Doherty's question on the deciles in terms of what assets are projected, and again projections will be under management by 2046, the bottom half would be about 6% or 7% based on the projections used in this assessment. On the fees----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty What about the top 10%?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy The top 10% is around 50%."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty It is about 54%."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Fifty per cent."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Would it be just a bit higher than that?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Slightly higher than 50%, yes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty My final question related to how much tax is going to be forgone in the 20 years."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy I will come back to the Deputy on that. A question was asked about the fees. We have seen initial sampling and estimate that fees can be expected to land from 0.3% up to as high as 1.3%. That will vary significantly on the basis of both providers and the type of products and services people opt for. Some funds currently offered in the market can be very low. Some are offered at as little as 0.1%. With fintech companies, apps and all of that, fees can be really small. There are other fees which go higher, for example, if someone opts for a financial adviser in the context of the level of oversight and engagement involved at the higher end of the scale. The decision to allow for the broadest range possible in terms of regulated entities offering this service or having the capacity to offer the product is another way of ensuring that there is strong competition. The latter can keep the fee structures low. It is noted that in the UK model, the greatest penetration and uptake of the individual savings account, ISA, is with the providers that keep very competitive fee structures. It will come back to financial literacy and ensuring that people are aware of the product, that they educate themselves about it and are aware of the benefits and also of the potential risks involved."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cian O'Callaghan The issue is that the fees will reduce in the amount of money in the model that is going to go into consumption taxes. This makes the assessment flawed. The Minister of State has not taken into account the fees and the reduced amount that will be available for consumption taxes, which is what the assessment is based on, because it suggests that the scheme will not be so costly to the taxpayer as a result of the fact that there are going to be all these extra consumption taxes. Does the Minister of State accept that a significant amount of the returns will be retained or reinvested within the investment accounts? I would appreciate an answer on that because I have a follow-up question."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy That is investor behaviour. There will be some element that will be reinvested, but there will be other elements that will not and people who will spend. People save for a variety of reasons, for example to buy a house or car, or to send their children to college. That money is put back into the real economy and it has secondary benefits. That is a matter of fact."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cian O'Callaghan Absolutely. We can all agree that some of the gains will be retained in the investment accounts. It is not a controversial statement. However, the economic assessment the Minister of State has produced today works on the assumption that none of the gains will be retained in the investment accounts and will all go back into consumption or additional savings. The model is completely flawed in terms of the additional revenues that will be generated for the taxpayer because it is based on that flawed assumption. The Minister of State has agreed that some of them are going to be retained in the investment accounts, yet he has brought in an economic assessment which states in black and white that there is an assumption this will not be the case. One of the footnotes on page 10 states, \"By treating asset returns as available to support household consumption each year, the model may overstate the scale and timing of the associated second-round effects.\" It is not a case that it may overstate the position; it is overstating it. That makes the Minister of State's assessment completely flawed. I am just wondering why he has brought such a flawed assessment to the committee and why he stands over it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy I am happy to get a more technical briefing for the Deputy. I understand that some of the gains are retained each year. The analysis is based on that, based on the advice I am getting from my officials now. We can get further clarity on that for Deputy O'Callaghan if he wishes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Any clarity should go to the committee as well."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cian O'Callaghan It should go to the committee. The economic assessment published this morning, on page 10, under the heading \"Second-round effects and treatment of returns\", it states, \"Asset returns are treated as income paid to the individual rather than as capital growth retained within the account.\" Why does it say that if it is not the case? Can the Minister of State explain why what he has just said contradicts what is in the report he published this morning?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy The model is based on each year, the gain is treated as an income. As with all income, some of our income is reinvested back into savings and some of it goes into consumption."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cian O'Callaghan I am aware of that because I have read the report. I am not clear that the Minister of State has read this section of the report from his answers. The report states that. What the report clearly states, and there is a difference here, is that the model assumes that none of the growth is retained in investment accounts. That goes into either consumption or additional savings. That is what the model states. The Minister of State has contradicted himself here. He is giving different versions of what is in the report. He told us a few minutes ago that some of the returns are retained in the investment accounts. He has now told us what it states in the report, which is that none of the gains are retained in the assessment accounts. They either go back into consumption or additional savings. It is not clear that the Minister has read this and that he is explaining it properly or if he is able to defend this properly."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Could Deputy O'Callaghan repeat where he was quoting from a moment ago, please? For his benefit, I want to make sure that-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cian O'Callaghan As I said before, I was quoting from page 10 of the report. It is under the heading \"Second-round effects and treatment of returns\". This is a key part of the report and the economic assessment in terms of the conclusions that are made. They are all based on the idea that this is not going to be a huge cost to the Exchequer because assumptions are made around consumption taxes that are going to be drawn in by the Exchequer after a number of years as a result of these savings in investment accounts. It is not a peripheral part of the report. It is the foundations on which the Minister of State's conclusions on the report are based."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy The report states, \"IIA investment returns therefore increase disposable income and are not added automatically back to the IIA balance.\" What I am being informed of is that some will be added back in, but not all. What is not added back in will go toward generating further consumption and an element of it goes back into savings."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cian O'Callaghan The issue is that this is not what the report states. The Minister of State is now contradicting the report. If the Minister of State has that extra information, why is it not in the report? Given that the Minister of State is now saying some of the investment growth will be retained in the account, how much? This is a key part of the model. How much is going to be retained in the accounts? How much is going out of the accounts under these assumptions? Why is it that the report not able to provide detail and clarity on this? Why is the Minister of State not able to provide detail and clarity on this when this is the key foundation of the economic analysis that has been produced today and the assumptions in it?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy I apologise for this. I want to get the best answer available to the Deputy. With the agreement of the committee, is it possible that we can get a technical briefing for it in relation to the exact-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach We have already had a technical briefing. We are swapping Ministers in a number of minutes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Shay Brennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Shay-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Shay-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Shay Brennan I think the Deputy is asking about the proportion that is saved as opposed to consumed."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cian O'Callaghan No. I am asking about what is retained in the accounts. We have been told it is retained but the report states that it is not retained."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach The assumption is that the model assumes that asset-generated income out of tax is distributed immediately. That is the indication."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty The question here is that-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Shay Brennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Shay-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Shay-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Shay Brennan It says-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach One speaker at a time, please. I might just finish my sentence. The model assumes that the asset-generated income net of tax is distributed immediately to the individual rather than retained within the relevant investment holding capitalised into the asset balance. That is the assumption. I call Deputy Brennan and I will then let in Deputy Doherty, but we will then be breaking in order to change the Minister and change secretariat. I will allow the Deputy to go ahead."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Shay Brennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Shay-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Shay-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Shay Brennan I am curious to get the answer. I had a similar question. My understanding, and the Minister of State might correct me if I am wrong, is that the assumed 5% return will be paid out in its entirety and a percentage will then be reinvested and a percentage consumed. Deputy O'Callaghan is asking what percentage is consumed as opposed to what percentage is reinvested. There is a point at which it states that it varies by cohort but between 68% and 81% is consumed as opposed to between 19% and 32%, which is saved. I take that to mean reinvested or left in the account. Rather than only taking out a small portion of the 5% return and leaving the balance, the Minister of State is assuming that the whole lot will be taken out and the bit that would have been saved will be put back."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy That is the assumption, yes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Shay Brennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Shay-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Shay-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Shay Brennan Therefore, we get to the figure as to the amount that is consumed. Is my understanding correct?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy That is correct, yes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I am conscious that we are to change the Minister of State and the secretariat. We had planned a five-minute suspension to facilitate that. Is it okay if we take that now? It was scheduled and I would like to stick to the schedule. I suggest we suspend for five minutes."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an su\u00ed ar fionra\u00ed ar 2.01 p.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 2.09 p.m."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sitting suspended at 2.01 p.m. and resumed at 2.09 p.m."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Would an Teachta O'Callaghan like to repeat his question so that we can continue? We have had a change of Minister."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cian O'Callaghan I repeat the sentiments I expressed earlier when the Minister was not here. It is very disappointing he was not here this morning and chose to attend an event instead. Ministers for Finance have always treated the Finance Bill with utmost seriousness in terms of their commitments. On this economic assessment report, the Minister might clarify why, given these are forward projections, there are no projections for inflation. That would affect the analysis here. Why is there no assessment of what fees would take out from the revenue that would then be available for consumption taxes? Why is that not part of the analysis and is it not a serious flaw? As for what is available to go into consumption for households from gains made and what is reinvested into the investment accounts, what is the figure there? Also, given this rests on the highest possible uptake by international standards, namely, the Canadian model, are the calculations of what would be available for consumption taxes not skewed? On balance, it is not likely this would have the highest uptake by international standards. Surely it will be somewhere between the lowest and the highest. Does that not skew the projections the Minister's Department has made for what will be available for consumption taxes? In addition, the model here works on the assumption there are no losses, or years of losses, or reduction in the fund values, which again is a normal part of investing. Does that not also skew the analysis and the assumptions made here? Is there not a whole set of assumptions and omissions here that skew the conclusion of the economic analysis? Is it standard for the Department of Finance to produce forward projections and economic analysis without inflation, for example, being taken into account?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ged Nash I am not going to labour the points I made earlier in the interests of actually getting some business done at the committee. We have a lot of amendments to deal with and I would like to deal with the substantive ones as soon as we can. It is on that basis I will limit my points to fees. I said in the earlier session that I am surprised there is no assessment of the impact of fees, costs and annual management charges in the assessment. That is a major lacuna in the document because we know from the pensions industry that, in Ireland, annual management charges and fees more generally - cumulative fees - have an impact on a pension pot, for example. Fees charged for management of private pensions in Ireland are demonstrably higher than those in other economies we like to compare ourselves against, so naturally enough there will be an impact in terms of the revenue generated and the value of the IIAs when it comes to fees. The Minister of State put on record earlier his view that annual fees would come in at a range of 0.3% to 1.3%. Is that an assessment the T\u00e1naiste agrees with? If it is, where is the evidence? It is not in the assessment itself and that is, as I said, a serious lacuna. If the idea here is to generate more activity in terms of retail investment, which it is and that is something the committee more generally supports, then clearly a sense of fee structure and an assessment of the fees and the impact on accounts would have been prioritised in this assessment. The T\u00e1naiste was not here earlier because he was addressing a Business Post and Grant Thornton event in the Mansion House, as I understand it. He made reference at that event, according to the Business Post website, that this is not an account that is going to make anybody wealthy. I understand that but I do not necessarily think that is its purpose. When he was asked about fees he said he would \"try and let competition do the job\" on that and that he would make an intervention if it was the case competition was not addressing the issues with potentially high fee costs. What did he mean by that and why not do it now?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister for Finance (Deputy Simon Harris) Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an gcoiste. I too want to focus on the substance of the issues today. The event I was at was an early morning one. I think my attendance at it concluded before this committee began its business this morning, but just-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty No. The committee-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Just one person speaking."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty The committee was delayed at the request, I understand, of the Minister of State. It was scheduled to meet while the T\u00e1naiste was attending the event."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Okay. I was not aware of that but we had a very good engagement on the scheduling of this Bill and I have cancelled quite a number of events on Wednesday to be able to engage substantively for the day in addition to this week. I thank the committee for that. Just to make the point, the Government can obviously decide who it puts forward to take legislation. The Minister of State, Deputy Troy, is a very able Minister of State in my Department. I thank him for the work he did but I am very pleased to be here as well. I have a couple of things to try to respond to and the Deputies may come back to me if I miss anything. I would argue the economic assessment published today, and the Deputies should feel free to challenge me on this, is one of the most substantive pieces of analysis that has been published in advance of the introduction of an account. It is true some countries, which I can reference, published such analysis. I think Sweden, Denmark and Finland did some relevant analysis before they formally introduced their schemes, but quite a number of countries introduced these accounts without any such economic impact assessment. That is the first point. It is available and \\o am grateful to the officials for providing technical briefing. I am also very happy and would be enthusiastic about any further technical briefing that is required between now and Report Stage and on an ongoing basis between now and the operation of the accounts. This is a novel development in our country. It is not at an international level but it is a new approach for us. It is very embarrassing when people quote your words back to you, but the point I made, which I have made consistently, is this is not a get rich quick scheme or a light switch moment. It is a period of cultural change to try to open up retail investment to more people in our country. We are learning as a country and as a people as we go through this. This economic assessment was carried out by very expert officials in the Department, whom I am very grateful to. It is not a political document and it is not my view of the world. It is independent economic analysis and I am grateful to the economics division of the Department of Finance for producing that. It is using a European Commission model. Some of the discussion earlier and what has been put to me now has some validity to it. There is a logic to some of what the Deputies say and there are interesting points but we are using a model that has been provided to member states of the European Union by the European Commission. It is the Commission's model for savings and investments that we have decided to apply as part of that broader piece of work going on at European level. We should, as member states of the European Union, feed back the views that have been expressed here on how that model could perhaps be further improved and refined, but it is a European Commission model not a Department of Finance model or a Government model and it has been designed for member states to try to look at the impact if these sort of investment accounts are introduced. We are using the model, no more and no less, but it is an appropriate thing to do. The question of Canada is interesting. We used Canada because we thought there were a number of similarities between the Canadian account and ours, including the decile breakdown that does not exist in all the other ones as well. That is the reason we use that. I take Deputy O'Callaghan's point that nothing is 100% like for like. This is an economic analysis. It is doing its best to envisage, under various scenarios, where things might go, but again with the caveat that this is a very new introduction to Ireland. It is something we have not really tried before and we are going to need to watch that closely. There is no inflation because it is at current prices. That, again, is how the European Commission approaches this situation. The Department of Finance generally reports with no inflation forecast. If we look at Future Forty, inflation is in current prices throughout so the model is current. The point the Deputy makes about real people out there and the impact of inflation is a valid one but it does not take away from the model. On uptake, we have tried to analyse a range of scenarios in the appendix. I am going to be blunt with the committee and with the people that these are ranges. You would want to be a descendant of Mystic Meg to be able to predict where this is going to go. There is benefit in the details of the account being announced on budget day and legislated for in the Finance Bill but not opening until next July, because we need a significant financial literacy and public awareness campaign and competition. The Commission model does not include fees. We used that model. I do not mean this in a provocative way. The Deputy can criticise us for using the European Commission model, but we chose to do so. We have been working with the European Commission and the Central Bank. The Commission partook in some engagements and events on this and we thought it was important. On fees, the point I was making to Deputy Nash is one there is some logic to and I will get back to that. I support the range the Minister of State, Deputy Troy, referenced and I will come back to why in a second. Competition will help because, under the draft law as it is today, people can only open one account. Therefore, potentially a lot of providers will want their business and that has a benefit. If, on the main street of any of our towns, a number of potential providers want people to open the account with them and do business with them, that competitive environment will help. It is one of the reasons it is important there be a set start date, so the consumer has the benefit of a range of products, rather than going ahead with one and then another coming out a few weeks later. Initial sampling by IBEC estimated that fees can be expected to land between 0.3% and 1.3%. That is the sample we are referencing. That is a significant range and I think it will vary significantly between providers and services. For example, some funds offered in the market currently have low fees. Some are offered at less than 0.1% annually at present, but it is on an execution only basis. Alternatively, some people may go to a financial adviser and they will be offered fees at the higher end of the scale, so it may be above that. It will vary a lot. Not necessarily in the Finance Bill but in other legislation, it is entirely open to the Oireachtas to take a view on these issues. However, in the first instance, competition and seeing how this goes makes sense. Other jurisdictions have shown that if a fee cap is brought in, it can have a reverse effect because it becomes the new target."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ged Nash I am not suggesting that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I know you are not. I am just sharing my views. In other financial products, such as pensions, it results in a restricted offering if the cap is too low and that can inadvertently have an impact on customer choice."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Do we have any more questions on the economic impact? Deputy Doherty is indicating. Deputy Aird has come in. This is on the economic impact and then we will move on."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty This is a big issue. The Minister missed the earlier part and I concur with the points made. They were made earlier in the Minister's absence. As I said yesterday, the Minister for Finance has always made this a priority. The Minister knew the Finance Bill was coming up. He decided not to come here but to attend another event, which was a good event. He was talking about things in the Finance Bill and we were here dealing with a Minister of State who has no responsibility for this section. It was not fair. It was not fair on him and it was not comfortable for us. The Minister is the architect of this policy. He made the wrong decision and it was not good for the finance committee. We all have other engagements and we decided to prioritise this legislation. The Minister decided not to and that was regrettable. The issue is that this economic model was published today, on the day we are dealing with the section, which is absolutely ridiculous. Whether other countries do it or not, it is madness that this has been published when the finance committee is dealing with it here. The Minister is then trying to grapple with the questions and models. We should have had a few days and we would not be wasting this time trying to deal with this. The issue is that the model used to underpin this suggests that all the gains accrued in these investment accounts will be paid out as income. That assumes it will increase people's disposable income, which means they will spend in the economy. That will increase VAT returns, which will have an impact on labour, pushing up wages and resulting in higher income taxes. It all stems from this point. The Minister and I know how these investment accounts work. They are not paid out as income. The whole point is that markets will go up and down. The idea is that people investing in these accounts are comfortable having their money invested over a long period and accumulate compound interest. The model is broken. The Minister said it is based on the European Union model. Is the European Union model so rigid that this assumption had to be taken? My understanding is that it is designed to be flexible to allow for country-specific calibration. The Government also used a version of a model developed by the European Commission. They are direct quotes from the report. If that is the case, why did the Minister use this assumption?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I have no further indications, so I call an tAire."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I have other questions. Let me get to them because they were not answered earlier. Maybe we should stick with the model and then we can go back to the distribution effect."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I am happy to do that. I was saying there were no further indications so I will move on to the Minister and then we can go back to more questions."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris What Deputy Doherty and others are perhaps highlighting - I do not want to be overly critical of the European Commission's model - are weaknesses of the model. However, we applied the model as my economists thought was most appropriate. There is a rigidity in the model, but we made amendments, including putting in the \u20ac12,000 per annum and the cap of \u20ac50,000 before tax needs to be paid. It is not necessarily that I disagree with Deputy Doherty or that I seek to be argumentative about this issue. We are all just being honest about it. We do not know how people will behave with these accounts yet. The Deputy, not unfairly, made the point about how people have treated investments in the past in this country and the investment culture. The number of people who participate in retail investment is small. We are talking about trying to appeal to people who have never invested before. We have put in significant flexibility, if that is the right word, so people can withdraw their money when they wish and there is no minimum amount they can put in. If this works, we will have a whole new cohort of people investing who have never invested before. Therefore, behaviour may change and we are trying to imagine how people will behave, but it may not be the same as the traditional patterns. We just do not know that yet. The economic analysis is carried out independent of the political system. It is good, robust economic analysis, based on a European Commission model. It is a helpful contribution to the debate and the development of policy. With due respect to the analysis, it is no more than that, but it is a helpful contribution which enables us to consider these issues. It is good that the European Commission is suggesting to member states that this is a model or tool that can be used across the European Union. That will allow it to be compared and contrasted."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty For clarification, this is a modified version of the European Commission's model. Who modified it?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I will have to check that. My understanding is that the modifications made are the ones I referenced, including the installation of the specific national decision points in the budget on the \u20ac12,000 and \u20ac50,000. That is what the modification refers to, as well as take-up rates. The modification was carried out by economists in the economics division of the Department."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Okay. On the assertion by the Department that it had no option but to exclude inflation and no option, given the model used, but to assume that all the gains would be paid out as income, is that what the Minister is stating?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris No, it would not be fair for me to characterise it like that. My Department has options, but the option we chose was to apply the European Commission model."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Let me clarify. Using the European Commission model was an option. The Minister could have chosen other models but used that one, and I am not arguing with that. My question is whether that choice limited him to having to assume the gains would all be paid as income."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Insofar as we would not have been using the model if we had gone in a different direction. If we had made some of the changes the Deputy suggested, it would not have been in line with the European Commission model."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty It would not have been in line. Okay."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Does the Deputy have further questions at this point? No one else is indicating and he indicated he had other questions."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I do. I want to wrap up the first question. The Minister used the model and all the rest. As this is the main part that underpins the consumption, VAT and tax, knowing how these funds and accounts work, that gains are not paid as income and the vast majority of people will keep their gains in the account, does he accept that it is not credible? Can we accept that it is not credible in real life? Surely the Minister for Finance is not suggesting that, for the vast majority of people - whether they make a 5% gain, which the model uses, or whatever - it will be withdrawn every year and spent in the economy. That is not the intention. Therefore, the assumptions being used in this report are not credible. I know that might be hard for the Minister to say but is that not the fact?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I am very happy to debate the credibility of policies I bring forward but what I will not do is suggest that the economic analysis of my officials is not credible."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty No."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris The Deputy is not doing so either, but that is the reason I am pushing back on the use of the word \"credible\". This is a credible piece of economic analysis that has been carried out by the economics division of the Department of Finance in line with the European Commission model. The Deputy used the phrase \"in the real world\". I accept the \"in the real world\" reality - things like inflation, VAT and how the decisions people have made are yet to be known. Even \"disagree\" is too strong a word, but where I do not think, quite frankly, the Deputy or I can be confident is in predicting behavioural activity or what people will decide to do if they invest in this. I am not sure, and I am not sure the Deputy can be sure."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Okay-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris The Deputy might let me make the point. Let us take the example of somebody who has never invested before, which is the aim of this account. I have heard the Deputy say he is not against the concept, and I appreciate that, but the aim of this account is to bring into investments people who have not necessarily invested before. The aim is to allow them the flexibility to withdraw their own money as they wish, and potential gains. Some of those people may well need to do that. They may well decide to do that and they may well behave differently from people who have invested before, who tend to be much wealthier. We just do not know that yet. That is the truth."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty It is nothing to do with the Minister's officials, but the assumption is not credible in the real world. Let us remember what the assumption is: that for every single person who invests in this account, the gains are going to paid out in income, and that it will be seen as income as opposed to gains within the account. It is not credible and that is why deemed disposal was brought in. A large number of people who are going to put their money into this account are already investing in other areas; that is why there is a whole section dealing with the tax that will be applied to them as they withdraw from one account into another account. I want to move on to other questions that I asked the Minister of State, Deputy Troy, which he did not answer. In relation to table 8 and the deciles identified in it, are they individual income deciles or household wealth deciles? I want to get clarity on that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris They are household wealth deciles."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Okay, so they are household wealth. If that is the case, we can agree that to qualify for the top 10%, you have to have net household wealth in excess of \u20ac1 million. That is the Central Statistics Office, CSO, data. We are talking about people we can call millionaires. Some of that wealth is property, a house and so on and so forth. It is net household wealth, with no loans against it, in excess of \u20ac1 million, and we establish that 54% of the value in these accounts within 20 years will be held by people who have a net household wealth of \u20ac1 million. Is that correct?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I think it is, yes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty What will be the cumulative tax forgone in relation to this during those 20 years?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I will just check that. I am catching up with the Deputy. For the final year, 2046, it will be \u20ac1.6 billion."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Yes, and that is every year. The cumulative tax forgone will be \u20ac9.8 billion in those 20 years. Would that be correct?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris We are just checking that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Okay. It is; let us take it that it is. This will see a tax break for the wealthiest 10% in Irish society of about \u20ac5 billion. When we are talking about the top 10%, we are talking about people who already have net wealth in excess of \u20ac1 million. That is a huge transfer of wealth from the Exchequer to people who are already very wealthy. It is \u20ac5 billion over the next 20 years going to the top 10%, people who already have net wealth in excess of \u20ac1 million. That is a wee bit hard to take, is it not?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I genuinely do not believe this account is going to be particularly attractive to the particular decile of people the Deputy is referring to. Please allow me-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Has the Minister read his report?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach One speaker."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris We do not need to------"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Some 54^% of the value is going to be held by millionaires."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris The Deputy was very eager for me to be here. If I could have an opportunity to speak, I would appreciate it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I am just wondering if the Minister has read the report."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Just the T\u00e1naiste."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I have read the report."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Okay."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I thank the Deputy. We do not need this kind of condescension. The reality of the situation is that there is already a limit on the amount of money people can put into this account. That has been criticised, by the way, by some aspects, who think it does not go far enough and is not generous not. There is a maximum amount you can put in on a yearly basis. There is a maximum amount before you pay tax as well. That is done intentionally to target the scheme at people who are not classified as \u00fcber-wealthy or signficantly wealthy. Obviously, in any investment scheme, the more wealth people have, the more they can benefit, but the benefit here is real to people in this country who have never participated in investments before. I just wanted to make that point, too."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I am not giving the Minister my take on this here. I am giving him his take. He says this will not be highly attractive to the \u00fcber-wealthy. His own report, published today, says that it is actually the \u00fcber-wealthy, those who have net wealth in excess of \u20ac1 million, who will account for the majority of money in these accounts. Some 54% is going to the really wealthy at the minute. Let us take the other half of the population, the people the Minister says this is geared towards. How much are they going to have? It is 6%. In 20 years' time, as this builds up, as more people use the account and all the rest, only 6% of the funds that will be held in the accounts, under what the Department is projecting, will be held by half of the population. That is the scheme, whether we like it or not. I am not opposed to the scheme. I want restrictions, safeguards and all the rest, but the problem with how this is designed is that it is a \u20ac5 billion tax gift to people who already have household wealth in excess of \u20ac1 million. Yet, half of the population will have assets in these accounts that equate to just over 6%."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris We have to recognise the fact that already the investment culture in this country and the investment reality are heavily skewed. The current investment structure is extraordinarily skewed towards those who have wealth versus those who do not have wealth or an ability to participate. What this does is, yes, enable people who continue to have money to invest and do well out of an investment scheme, but it also enables people who have never been able to make any real progress with their own wealth to benefit. We can have these discussions, whether they relate to pensions and auto-enrolment, savings or investments. People who have wealth obviously have an ability to set aside more money than people who do not. I get that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty That is not the point."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris It is somewhat the point because at the moment, if we do not do this, the lower deciles are not getting an opportunity to participate at all. Yes, the people who have money are continuing to benefit, but the lower deciles are benefiting in a way they have not benefited before."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty The Minister is missing the point. Of course those with higher incomes and more wealth are investing already, but the point about the section we are dealing with is that it has a price tag of \u20ac9.8 billion over the next 20 years. What the Minister is telling us in black and white is that this is tax money the Exchequer and the State owns and is now going to give to people as a tax break. He is telling us that 54% of that - over \u20ac5 billion - is going to go to people who already have a net wealth above \u20ac1 million. That is a problem that has to be dealt with. If I take at face value what the Minister says, that is not the intention, yet that is what we have before us. He is asking us to agree to a section that will see a huge transfer of tax cuts and tax breaks to people who are already extremely wealthy. In anybody's book, people who have a net wealth of \u20ac1 million are not the people we need to be giving multimillion euro tax breaks to, but that is what the Minister is asking us to do. I do not think he is denying that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Page 19, under table 8, points out that decile 10 already holds more investments under the no-Irish investment account baseline. We have put in a contribution limit and an annual taxation charge to reduce the additional benefit that is generated by the IIA. We could have made a decision not to cap the amount that can be put in. We could have made decisions that were more advantageous here but we have actually put in restrictions which are quite important. Assets held within the investment account do increase across all wealth groups. The Deputy has taken us through table No. 8. The model indicates, however, that lower-wealth households that participate in the account should benefit from increased exposure to investments and to the associated tax-advantage returns. Compared with a \"No IIA\" baseline, aggregate total wealth among modelled participants in the bottom 50% is approximately \u20ac556 million higher by 2046. Across participants in the bottom 50%, in deciles six to eight combined, the corresponding increase is approximately \u20ac2.5 billion. Fundamentally, the point the Deputy is making, that those who have money are able to invest it and will benefit from this scheme, is correct. That will help to build up resilience in our country but people who have never had an opportunity to participate will also benefit in real ways. We have put in place contribution limits and annual taxation charges to reduce that additional benefit. That is a matter of debate but that is the rationale."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cian O'Callaghan The T\u00e1naiste has been quite vocal in saying that his intention here is not to provide something for people who are already well off and that this is for people in other income groups. He has been quite consistent in his commentary on that. However, on page 22 of the economic analysis that the Minister and his Department published today, it clearly states that investment account assets become increasingly concentrated towards the upper end of the wealth distribution over time. Decile ten's share of total investment account assets rises from approximately 30.1% in 2027 to 54.5% in 2046. Does the T\u00e1naiste accept that part of the analysis that his Department published today? Does that concern him because it seems to go against his stated aim that these accounts are not meant to be benefiting people in the top tier? They are meant to be for everyday people. It seems to go against the T\u00e1naiste's stated intentions and policy aims."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I do not want to be too pedantic but on the same page I would reference three other points that respond to that. The first is a really important point for all of us to consider. I have been honest about this, that it is a new departure in Ireland and that take-up rates, who decides to participate and who it ends up being attractive to are issues that we will all have to watch and monitor. We will have annual budgets and we have chances to monitor these things. It says very clearly, in the section that Deputy O'Callaghan just read from, that the projected distributional outcomes should be interpreted with caution as they are driven by model assumptions, particularly relating to participation rates. I remain convinced that there are many people in this country who are wealthy and who are already involved in investment cultures and practices and this is not necessarily going to attract them to change that behaviour or come to this model because there is a maximum amount of \u20ac12,000 that can be put in per year. There is also a life-time threshold of \u20ac50,000 before one pays tax. I would also point out that paragraph four of that section refers to the fact that the projections indicate that no annual taxation charge will arise for the bottom 50%, or deciles six to eight, during the modelled period. In other words, those who are actually paying the yields of tax that will come from this are in the higher deciles. Indeed, by 2046, the end of the forecasting period, decile ten accounts for approximately 95% of the taxation charge yield yearly. There are caveats to some of what Deputy O'Callaghan said. I cannot dispute the fact that people who have a spare \u20ac12,000 per year, which is not that many people, will be in a position to put that in, up to \u20ac50,000, before they pay tax and will see a benefit. That is true. However, there are other issues that I have pointed out that need to be considered when assessing this policy in the round."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cian O'Callaghan I just want clarity on this. Does the T\u00e1naiste accept that statement in the economic analysis that his Department published today? He has actually cast a bit of doubt on it there. He has put a bit of shade on it, as such. Is he actually accepting what it says, that assets in the investment accounts will be increasingly concentrated towards the upper end of the wealth distribution over time? He seems to be suggesting that the people at the top will not use these accounts and will keep their investments elsewhere, that they will not avail of the better tax treatment that is available here. That contradicts the analysis that his Department has just published this morning which, using the EU model, has produced this statement. Is he really contradicting the analysis produced by his Department this morning or does he accept that statement from his Department that the assets are going to become increasingly concentrated in the top decile? Does that not concern him, if that is the case?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I accept that-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach An Teachta Burke. Apologies, T\u00e1naiste."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris My apologies."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Colm Burke We have to look at this in a positive light. I served on a board of directors from 1997 to 2007. There was a person on that board who had been in the company for 25 years. He started a pension fund for all the employees of the company. People could not understand it at the time but when everyone retired they appreciated very much that as well as having the State pension, they had a pension that had been set up by the company. Likewise with this. This is about looking into the future and giving people the opportunity to invest. There are always going to be risks but it is about making sure that people know of all of the challenges that exist but at the same time, that there is a reasonable possibility that they will do better. The other issue relates to the better use of money. Money lying idle in bank accounts is not doing anything for anyone. This can help in relation to investment and returns. It is about being positive. It has been shown that in other European countries, it is working. Why should we not look at what is happening in other European countries, learn from their mistakes and make sure that we have adequate precautions in place? People must be aware of the risks but they must also be made aware that it may be helpful to them in putting some, but not necessarily all, of their savings into an account with a better return. It is about being careful but also about planning into the future."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I thank Deputy Burke for injecting that degree of positivity into the conversation. He is right about what we are trying to do here. I accept that there is not a fundamental opposition to the overall policy objective. I accept everyone's bona fides on this and it is right that we tease through it. There is a lot of money sitting in Ireland that is not being best utilised for Ireland, in terms of building up the resilience of this country. If we can get even a relatively small percentage of that money more actively working, that is a good thing for Ireland Inc, above and beyond the individual. That is a good thing for our country and for our country's economic well-being. While the taxation system is one element of this, it is the other big benefits of this account that I really believe make it particularly attractive to people who have not participated before. I refer to the simplicity, flexibility and the no-income-threshold. To Deputy O'Callaghan's point, I would say that these are a set of assumptions. There is nobody in my Department who believes that these are baked-in, concrete and absolutely certain. These are us putting assumptions into models. Where this ends up - and we have to be truthful about this, which I am being - we do not yet know. That is why we are all going to have to monitor this closely because it is a very new policy and cultural development in Ireland. There was a suggestion earlier - I believe from Deputy Nash but I do not want to wrong anybody - that the review period of five years may be a little bit too long and I am open to accepting something on that. It would need to be long enough to actually have meaningful data but if people think three years is better than five years, I am not going to be stubborn on that. We want to get this right. On the issues related to the modelling, I have heard the views of the committee. It was logical for the economics division of the Department, when we are bringing in an initiative that stems from the saving and investment union at a European level, to use the European Commission model that was made available to all member states. One would hope that over time, as more member states use it, that will give us all good compare-and-contrast data that will help, from an evidence-based-policy approach. How we seek to improve or modify the models and contribute at a European level to improvement of the models is a conversation we should keep going back to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach As I stated earlier, amendments Nos. 16 to 24, inclusive, 26 to 31, inclusive, 33 to 35, inclusive, 38 and 39 are related and will be discussed together. The Minister of State has given us an outline of what is involved in the individual investment account under section 26 and we have had a discussion on it. We will now deal with the amendments in this group, which are all in the name of the Minister. The other amendments proposed to section 26 are grouped with amendment No. 25, which is in the name of Deputy Nash. That grouping will be dealt with after this grouping."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ged Nash Can I speak to my amendment now?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach We are dealing with the Minister\u2019s amendments first. There is an awful lot involved in this grouping and I want to give people the appropriate time to go through it. As I have said numerous times during this committee hearing, I want to make sure I am doing this correctly so that we do not have to come back because I did something incorrectly."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I move amendment No. 16: In page 36, line 17, to delete \"in the State,\" and substitute \"in the State, or\"."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I have a couple of questions on the amendments. Some of the amendments are technical, relating to drafting issues, and they are straightforward enough. The first few amendments in the group propose to delete references to undertakings for collective investment in transferable securities, UCITS, and I would like to tease them out. We received a letter from the Department indicating that REITs were, in fact, eligible investments after we had previously been informed that they were not. Will the Minister clarify why the UCITS regulation is being removed? What is the policy intent behind this? Would the unamended text allow for investments in REITs? What impact will the proposed changes have on investment in REITs? What other forms of alternative investment funds can be invested in following these edits? I will have another question later but I would like to deal with these amendments first."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I thank Deputy Doherty. REITs are allowed because their shares are listed. No other alternative investment funds will be allowed. These amendments are not specifically in relation to REITs but I understand why it arises."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty The amendments will delete references to undertakings for collective investments in transferable securities. What is the purpose of this?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris It is a policy change. It was felt that from a drafting point of view, it was not necessary to state it in the Bill. It does not change the policy intent of the Bill. There is still a reference to it in another place in the Bill."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty REITs obviously deal with property here in Ireland. There had been a suggestion previously that there could not be investment in REITs and this was clarified to us in a letter. Is this an issue that was under discussion in the Department, in relation to whether or not it should be allowed?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Not by me. I have checked with the officials here and there was not a specific form of discussion. The policy rationale, or the policy decision, was that we would allow people to invest in listed shares. REIT shares are, obviously, listed shares and we are allowing this without judgment on the shares."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Does the Minister's view of how this will operate allow for individuals to be able to direct the type of investment involved? There is no requirement in the legislation that they would have to be offered a green investment or investment that is not involved in the arms trade, fossil fuels or any such thing. We passed legislation, including Finance Bills, on divestment from fossil fuels but we will now provide tax incentives for investing in fossil fuels. People will be able to get involved in drilling off the coast of Alaska or wherever, or in companies that are cutting down the rainforest. Was any consideration given to any of this in terms of the substantial tax break of over \u20ac9 billion that this involves? There should be some type of limitation on the type of activity people can invest in."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris It is a very fair question but from a budgetary point of view, we decided we would provide a Finance Bill with a simple and straightforward proposition on tax and how the account operates. It will be up to individual people to decide where they wish to invest their money. I take the point Deputy Doherty is making. We could, but we will not, attach a judgment to what people decide to invest in."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty The majority of those the Irish taxpayer will provide this tax break to are the wealthy, and potentially they will be able to invest in the occupied territories or other such places and in things that appal Irish people. Was there no consideration of this? We have a policy which was passed by the Oireachtas but now we will have legislation that does not seem to tie in with other things we are trying to do to make sure that we are not investing in these."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris It is a fair point but, as Deputy Doherty rightly says, Irish people are appalled so they are hardly going to go out and invest in it. We are empowering the Irish person to decide how the Irish person wishes to invest their money. Obviously it will be entirely up to individual investors. There are elements regarding literacy, awareness, public awareness campaigns, providers and the types of accounts they will want to provide. From our point of view, in line with the European Commission's recommendation on this, we are not differentiating. To broaden the discussion, I do not want to misrepresent Deputy O'Callaghan but I have heard from his party the idea that there should be an account available for, perhaps, investment in housing. There are lots of different ideas, some good and some that people might think are bad. For better or worse, the policy decision we have taken is to provide a simple proposition to allow the individual Irish person to decide how to invest their money."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Of course Irish people will decide where they want to invest but the taxpayer is providing them with a significant benefit in this regard - \u20ac9 billion is not an amount to sneeze at. We are empowering people to invest. It is all in the Minister's document. People will invest more and more because there is a tax break. We cannot stop somebody technically investing somewhere but we can act on the tax benefit we will provide them. I will leave it at that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ged Nash I will follow on relatively seamlessly from Deputy Doherty's point. Something I have mentioned before, and which was raised in another context by Deputy O'Callaghan and his colleagues, is that one way in which we could potentially support indigenous Irish enterprise, which has issues with innovation, productivity and access to viable finance to scale, is, if not direct investment, then encouraging or conditioning investment in it through some of these schemes. This is based on the fact that there is a significant level of taxpayer support, through tax expenditures, to allow for accounts to support investment in Irish enterprise. Any investor in their right mind, and the regulated entities that advise people who are investing and which have a responsibility, will say the portfolio should be diverse because they will not want to take any unnecessary risk. However, there will be investors who are anxious to use the resources they have to invest in high potential start-ups. We know the mortality rate of these companies is high, so there are innate risks, but there is significant taxpayer support for these schemes. If it is not possible now, then perhaps in an early review of the scheme we could establish whether this is a direction of travel the Minister would favour. Could we get an assessment of the market for this kind of approach? I think it is there but I am not sure whether it is large. The economic assessment states around 60% of investments across EU member states are held in domestic assets. This will not be the case in Ireland because we do not have a stock exchange that is functioning the way that it might, but that is another day's argument. We have Euronext but we should be bringing it to another level? Could it help to support this? It potentially could. I am interested in hearing the Minister's views on this. This takes me back to amendments I have tabled to Finance Bills over the years. The Labour Party supported the establishment of the two investment funds, the Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund and the Future Ireland Fund, for reasons I will not rehearse now. One of the points I attempted to make through amendments I proposed when that legislation was being dealt with was that we should empower - instruct might be too strong a word - and work with the National Treasury Management Agency, NTMA, to target investment through the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund, ISIF, at high-potential start-ups and so on. I noted and welcomed the \u20ac1 billion allocation in the budget for investment in high-potential indigenous Irish firms to enable them to scale. It is really important. We are getting there, albeit a few years late and in a different way. The point I was making can be seen in that sort of context. I would be interested in hearing the T\u00e1naiste\u2019s views on that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cian O'Callaghan The T\u00e1naiste has mentioned that my party, the Social Democrats, put forward proposals for a homes for Ireland savings account so that some of these savings could be put into constructing affordable housing. Others have said that some of these savings could be directed towards investment in infrastructure. Clearly, that is not part of the proposal being brought forward now. In some other countries, general investment schemes, like the one the T\u00e1naiste is bringing forward, include options within that infrastructure that allow people to choose to invest in affordable housing, for example. That is an option for the investor. People can choose broader international investments or whatever portfolio they want, but they can also direct their savings towards a secure investment with a guaranteed return and a social benefit. The French Livret A scheme is an example. Why was this approach not considered as an option in this proposal? We would have favoured that approach as the main direction of travel, but it could have been done as an option within this scheme. If the T\u00e1naiste's view is that he wants this to be a simple proposition and so forth, as he said several times, what are his thoughts about the future in this regard? I do not simply want to hear that everything is open and under consideration. What is the T\u00e1naiste's genuine view? The points made by Deputy Doherty are also very valid. Our taxation system is used in many ways to try to encourage different types of behaviour and investment. It does not make sense for this measure to be working against that aim. Substantial taxes have been introduced to put a price on carbon, for example, and that has particular effects on individual households. Let us be very clear that we have always supported these taxes. When it comes to this scheme, however, there is no consideration of trying to get investment into areas that are more environmentally friendly or not environmentally destructive. People can rightly ask why individual households face substantial taxation while the same approach is not a consideration when it comes to large investors. Why is there that contradiction?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I thank the Cathaoirleach and the Deputies. I will first make the general point the Deputy does not want me to make and then be more specific. I have an open mind about what further iterations might look like, but let us be a little bit more specific than that. The United Kingdom introduced its innovative finance individual savings account, IFISA, as a specific form of individual savings account in that country for investment in innovative businesses. I think it took the UK 16 years to move from the development of the general account to the IFISA, so it is not unusual for a country to decide to adopt that approach. I will not say it is recommended by the European Commission - but I think it pretty much is - to bring in, in the first instance, a simple proposition, get it up and running, see how it goes and then make changes. I have asked my officials to engage with the NTMA and with the ISIF specifically in terms of other options for future iterations of this scheme. I think there is validity in the Deputy's point. I want to know where the ISIF and the NTMA see the gaps that could be usefully addressed, if we were able to turn a relatively small percentage of the public's money in savings into an investment proposition. That work will be carried out during the year and we will be in a position to discuss it. I am open to having discussions and engagements, and I will welcome them with colleagues, in terms of future finance Bills. One of the benefits of not being the first country to do this is that we can see what other countries have done. We have seen investors in other jurisdictions, when they are empowered, having a kind of home bias. I take the point, which is a true one, in terms of the limited opportunities that there are for publicly traded Irish companies. Notwithstanding that, I still think it will be interesting to see, and that we will be likely to see, this scheme being viewed as different. It is not the Government deciding where public money should be spent. This will be where individuals will decide where they want to put their own money. It will be quite interesting to see that too. The account is intended, initially, to provide a simple and accessible investment framework for a broad retail audience and, crucially, for first-time investors. For this reason, we have limited this to certain types of investments in terms of the definition of \"eligible assets\". This is for different reasons, including liquidity, valuation and risk characteristics. The point several Deputies made about early-stage start-ups is valid. We know, and have published documentation showing, we have a real funding gap here. We decided to try to address this somewhat through the extra \u20ac1 billion allocated to the ISIF, as Deputy Nash identified. We have a responsibility to get this scheme right. A very early-stage proposition may require funding, but we do not necessarily want a first-time investor to take on that high level of risk either. It is about having a balance. We will continue to keep all of these things under review. I do not mean that in a vague way. I mean it in a very real way, because we have seen a number of countries that have introduced a general proposition and then decided to make it more specific. I may as well flag for the record of the committee - I have said it before - that one area I am interested in looking at is a children's account. We all know the decisions that parents try to make for their children's future. Is there a way in which this aim can be considered in this context? There are different ideas about how we can do that. It is certainly something I think we should remain open to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Go raibh maith agat, a Th\u00e1naiste. Do we have any more questions on the amendments? We will have time to speak on the section itself. I call Deputy Doherty."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty There is an amendment that deals with the \u20ac3,000 penalty in relation to residency. I think it is amendment No. 28 and relates to non-residents for tax purposes using the investment account and the application of a \u20ac3,000 fine on the operator. Can the T\u00e1naiste talk us through that and the status in relation to a non-resident? Are we talking about a non-resident as someone who is residing in the State or is it someone who is non-resident for tax purposes?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris It is non-resident for tax purposes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Does the Teachta have any further questions on the amendments?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty It is non-resident for tax purposes, but non-residents themselves will not be able to open an account even if they are tax resident in the State. Is that correct?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Correct."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Those who work here, and have worked here all their lives, will not be able to open an account. Is that correct?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Can the Deputy clarify that?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I am referring to people who are tax-resident but not resident here. If people pay their taxes on their income here, will they be entitled to open an account?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Yes. They will be eligible to open an account if they are tax-resident in Ireland."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty The rule here is that people paying taxes in Ireland on their income will be entitled to open an account. Reference is made to a change of residence by qualifying individuals. It does not refer to tax residency. It refers more to residents."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris The intention is that the account will be for people who are tax-resident here."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Okay."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I have, perhaps-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I am looking at this in the context of a cross-Border scenario. Let us take the example of a person working and living in Lifford, who has recently married and moved across the bridge to live in Strabane, but continues to work in Lifford in our public services. Can that person open an account? If the person already has an account, do they have to close it?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris May I read this briefing note? I think it is useful."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Yes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Residence is a condition of opening an account and the standard residency rules as set out in section 819 of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997 apply. Individual investment accounts are intended for individuals who are residents of the State and an individual must be resident in the State at the time of opening the account. Section-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty To clarify, that is resident as opposed to tax residency."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Yes, that a person be living in the State at the time. A person has to be living in the State to open the account. The next bit might also be useful because section 747M deals with periods of non-residence account holders. If we think of a young person - it might be any person - who might open an account and may go abroad for a few years, how do we deal with that situation? Under the provision, a qualifying individual who leaves the State in certain circumstances is treated as having a period of non-residence. To notify the account provider of the commencement in ending of such a period, this notification requirement is an intention-based rule and is based on whether the individual leaves the State with the intention of not being resident in the year following departure. Contributions to an individual investment account are not permitted during the period of non-residence. The account provider must cease accepting a contribution within 30 days. I do not like making up anecdotes, but if a person living in the country has opened an account and has gone abroad to Australia for two or three years, we need to tell that person they do not need to close down the account but they cannot make any further additions to the account. If the person has any tax liability in that account, that liability still exists."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I am familiar with section 747M. That is kind of clear and we can deal with that. That is very similar to the ISA account in Britain and the North. I wish to clarify that it is residency as opposed to tax residency. Let us take an example so we can crystalise this. Does the nurse who is working, living and was born in Lifford in County Donegal, is working in the hospital there, has opened an account and has it for a number of years, has married a lad from Strabane across the bridge and has moved there and is still working in the hospital in Lifford have to close the account? She is now living in Strabane."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I have got a correction from colleagues. My understanding is she does not have to close the account, but she cannot make further contributions to the account if she is not resident here."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty She cannot make further contributions."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris It is an interesting and specific element in terms of our cross-Border reality that the Deputy is highlighting."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Is there a possibility of looking at the scenario? There is a huge number of cross-Border workers. We have discussed the issue of cross-Border workers and tax in the past, which needs to be revisited. There is a huge amount of cross-Border work that is happening and flows. In that scenario I talked about, they basically crossed a bridge and are still working and contributing to our public services. Is there a carve-out that could be looked at without allowing for somebody to have an ISA in one area and also then benefit from the taxation system here? Is there something that could be worked at?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris That is a very valid. Would the Deputy let me look at that between now and Report Stage to try to provide clarity in relation to it? In the situation of that nurse from Lifford working in Donegal and living in Strabane, she probably has a PPS number and is probably paying tax here. Let me have a look and I will come back with clarity on Report Stage."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty It is just because of the residence as opposed to tax residence. That was the point."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I agree with what the Deputy is trying to get to on it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I am going to take these amendments now unless there are any other clarifications on the amendments. For clarity, I am taking amendments Nos. 16 to 24, inclusive, now, then we are going to go amendment No. 25 by Deputy Nash. We are only agreeing the amendments up until amendment No. 25."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I move amendment No. 17: In page 36, to delete lines 18 to 22."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I move amendment No. 18: In page 36, line 23, to delete \u201c(i) a person\u201d and substitute \u201c(g) a person\u201d."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I move amendment No. 19: In page 37, to delete lines 19 and 20."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I move amendment No. 20: In page 38, lines 36 and 37, to delete all words from and including \u201c(within\u201d in line 36 down to and including line 37 and substitute the following: \u201c(within the meaning of the European Communities (Undertakings for Collective Investment in Transferable Securities) Regulations 2011 (S.I. No. 352 of 2011)).\u201d."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I move amendment No. 21: In page 38, to delete line 38 and in page 39, to delete lines 1 and 2."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I move amendment No. 22: In page 40, lines 7 to 9, to delete \u201ca register to be known as the register of qualifying account providers (in this Part referred to as the \u2018register\u2019) of qualifying account providers\u201d and substitute \u201ca register of qualifying account providers (in this Part referred to as the \u2018register\u2019).\u201d."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I move amendment No. 23: In page 43, to delete lines 11 to 15 and substitute the following: \u201c(10) In the case of an individual investment account to which subsection (8) applies, section 747P(1) shall apply to income, profits, gains and losses, arising up to and including the prescribed date, but shall not apply to any income, profits, gains or losses arising after that date.\u201d."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I move amendment No. 24: In page 45, line 18 and 19, to delete \u201cmay, on or after 1 January 2027, provide\u201d and substitute \u201cmay provide\u201d."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Amendments Nos. 25, 32, 36 and 37 are related and may be discussed together. For clarity, two of those amendments are in the name of Deputy Nash. We will then move on to section 27 where amendment No. 36 is the name of Deputy Nash. Amendment No. 37 is in the name of Deputy Doherty and myself. Initially, I will ask Deputy Nash to speak to his amendments. Deputy Timmins will be chairing at that point, but we will then ask an Teachta Doherty to speak to his amendment. At that point, we will then bring in the Minister to respond. It is then open to everybody to come back in. That is for full clarity."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Ghlac an Teachta Edward Timmins an Chathaoir."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Deputy Edward Timmins took the Chair."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ged Nash All these amendments relate to the question of fees and annual management charges. In a way I was inspired to do this because of work I have done over the years on comparatively high levels of annual management charges on private pensions in this country. I developed some legislation on it, which was published a number of years ago, to encourage and promote greater transparency around the presentation of those fees and costs. In an earlier interaction, we were talking about fee caps and so on. Nobody is in the business of opposing fee caps or management charge caps because they can have distorting effects on the way all of this would be managed. We certainly will not be in a position to make any judgment on the success or otherwise of this for a period of time. Amendment No. 25 specifically refers to the notion of introducing a statement of all fees, charges and costs that are deducted from the account and that any statement would be done in a standardised format. I say \"standardised format\" because one of the key motivating factors behind this proposal is to encourage people to get involved in the whole area of retail investment, doing it in a tax-efficient way that makes sense and to derisk it as best they can. An element of this is the financial literacy piece. We have to take what the Minister is saying at face value, which I do, that he wants to encourage as many people as possible, notwithstanding the fact this will undoubtedly be, and even the assessment shows this, very much a pursuit undertaken by the higher income deciles in this country. There is no doubt about that. They will benefit from it. However, there is a financial literacy piece here as well. The proposal is there would be a requirement to introduce a standardised format of a fee statement that would encourage that financial literacy piece and transparency as well because that is the key. It is about transparency. When there is a standardised format and when we can compare and contrast that between and within providers, it would encourage competition and competitiveness with fees, which can only be good for the consumer. In essence, amendments Nos. 32 and 26 are focused on that whole area. Amendment No. 36 proposes a report within a year of the introduction of the scheme, in consultation with the Central Bank, on the fees piece and how that is presented and structured, including fee comparisons and so on. We can argue the toss about when it is useful to do that. I proposed a year. It could be two or three years after the commencement of the scheme, which will be greenlit in this legislation and will be advanced from next July. It will go live next July. I am looking forward to establishing the Minister's views on these amendments."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty My amendment is in relation to a report on the fees being charged by all account providers and an analysis of the expected returns for investors. It is the gaping hole in all of this. There is no clarity at this point on what the fee structure will be and whether some of these financial institutions will be milking it, to say the least, and whether the end gains or returns will be far more limited than what people would expect. It is important in that regard. There are concerns. The issue of financial literacy was touched on earlier. I do not know where the Government is at with its strategy. We talked about the concentration of where money is likely to go into these accounts and it will go in from the highest net-wealth individuals in the State. Even though it is a small proportion, there will be those who are in the bottom half of income or wealth who will contribute to this. There is a danger here. People with wealth are able to ride out downturns. Financial advisers will say that people should invest in these types of products if they are not looking to withdraw the money in the next year or two. I know withdrawals can be made at any time, but people need to be in a position where, if the AI bubble bursts and they lose their shirt on their investments, they are able to ride it out over a period of years. When we look at the stock market, that can take eight or nine years, in some cases, to come back. The real challenge here is that people think this is a get-rich-quick strategy. We see the returns that have happened in the past, particularly in the last number of years, and those who see a dip in the market will not have to worry about their levels of investment. However, if someone has \u20ac24,000 invested and that is their nest egg for their family's future and there is a dip in the market, the person's emotions might tell them to withdraw and they would realise a loss. I am really concerned about that. The fee structure will affect all of it. I am diverging a wee bit from the amendment but it is really important that we see a report on the fees being charged by all account providers and an analysis of the expected returns for investors. It should not be a case of just leaving it to the market and seeing what it is. The market has been given free rein in relation to that and I am concerned about that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I will begin with the point Deputy Doherty made about financial literacy. This is really important. I use the same phrase as the Deputy used earlier. It is not a get-rich-quick scheme. It is not my job or the Deputy's job to promote that people should take up one of these accounts or anything like that. Should we decide to legislate for it, then it will be us as the Oireachtas putting a framework in place. We have a duty of care to our citizens to make sure that the best possible information is available to them as to what works for them. This is clearly not an alternative to a deposit account. This is not even an alternative to a savings account. This is actually beyond that. The Deputy is correct that while people will be able to withdraw money whenever they wish, they should be putting their money in with the hope that they will not have to withdraw it in the short term. This will enable that money to ride out any dips that may happen during that period of time. Perhaps it is an area that the committee would be interested in seeking more information on. We would certainly welcome the committee's involvement in this regard. We have appointed two new financial literacy ambassadors. They are both very good people. They will lead a lot of the work on this. They are also plugged into the financial literacy ambassadors' network at EU level. This is a European Commission initiative as well. There is a communications strategy being developed. I do not mean a communications strategy promoting the account but rather a communications strategy explaining what the account is and what it is not. The Deputy may or may not have different views on this. I think the public awareness campaign for auto enrolment was quite good in explaining what it is. We need the same sort of level for this, outlining what the account is and what it is not. Work is being done on this with the CCPC, the Central Bank of Ireland and industry bodies. I agree with the Deputy. One of the benefits of having a go-live date of July is that there is a window of time now that we need to use to make sure we get that right. I thank Deputies Nash, Doherty and Farrell for the amendments. I have a couple of points specifically on them. Amendments Nos. 36 and 37, as was said, seek to legislate for a report to be prepared and submitted to the D\u00e1il on fees, charges and costs charged by account providers. Amendments Nos. 25 and 32 seek to legislate for those additional disclosures to investors in relation to fees, as part of the legislative framework for the taxation of the investment account. Amendment No. 25 seeks disclosure before accounts are open and from then on annually in standardised form, of all fees, charges and costs for investments, including an illustration of the cumulative effect of those costs on the value of the account over ten years and 20 years. Amendment No. 32 calls for an annual disclosure to investors of the total amount of fees and costs deducted from the account in euro and percentage terms. This is a statement of the obvious but it is important. The conversation about fees is an important one to have. The Finance Bill is perhaps not the appropriate vehicle for consideration of fees. I do not say this to be pedantic, but fees, charges and disclosures are governed by financial services regulations, rather than taxation legislation but it is right that we are having the conversation here. Regulation plays an important role in helping people feel confident enough to take the step from saving to investing. People knowing that providers are subject to regulatory oversight and that established consumer protection requirements will continue to apply can help to build up trust and support informed decision-making. These investment account providers will be subject to existing consumer protection and disclosure requirements that apply to financial services and to the investment products they provide. Given that the investment account is primarily focused on trying to get new investors, much of the policy framework has been focused on simplicity. However, one thing that is not being sacrificed in the effort for simplicity is the extensive consumer protections that do apply when an individual uses a regulated financial services provider or purchases a regulated investment product. These include requirements relating to areas such as: disclosure of information; suitability or appropriateness for new investors; and fees, charges and transparency. We are not adding complexity. The current MiFID II of the insurance distribution regulations regime requires firms to provide their customers with an overview of the associated fees and their impact on the investment, before the investment takes place, as well as on an annual basis. Consumers are entitled to ask their provider to itemise each fee. These amendments largely duplicate requirements which are already in place in regulation. The intention is to ensure that the accounts are offered by as many firms as possible, as I stated earlier, to have downward pressure on fees to foster competition, encourage firms to innovate and reduce fees to try to secure market share. It is also important to consider how additional requirements could result in additional costs for investors - which none of us want to happen. It is important that we rely on our current well-regulated environment and not deviate from it for the sake of simplicity but neither should we add complexity to it either. There has been and will continue to be close engagement with the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, the Central Bank and industry now and during 2027 to further build awareness and to improve investment literacy and to ensure individuals know their rights regarding transparency and disclosure. This will enable them to make the best decisions on fees and performance to ensure they receive value for money. This will be a priority and will be monitored closely. As colleagues will know, there was also a retail investment strategy agreed to at EU level in June of this year. This will be implemented by Ireland through transposition. It will bring about further reforms in terms of advice, disclosure and fees that I think will have positive effects as well. The aim is to strengthen confidence for investors and to deliver better outcomes for them. I welcome what Deputy Nash said about the potential negative effects of fee caps. I share this view. I say this to be helpful and perhaps I can further clarify my thoughts on it on Report Stage. We are having a discussion about when we review this investment account. I had originally proposed after five years. To some members, that is a bit long. I am open to looking at that. Maybe that is a moment in time that will enable us to also take a look at where things are at and do that analysis and comparison in relation to fees. I offer that up to be constructive."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ged Nash I note the remarks made in the early part of the T\u00e1naiste's contribution and his response to me. He made the argument that the Finance Bill is maybe not the right context in which to discuss fees. That in itself makes the case for potentially having stand-alone legislation on something as significant as this, but that ship has sailed. Earlier, in our engagement with the Minister of State, Deputy Troy, I drew his attention to a piece a couple of weeks ago in The Irish Times, which I am sure the T\u00e1naiste and his officials will have seen, about the Davy report on fee outcomes. The report said that providers might be able to draw in a range of between \u20ac100 million and \u20ac400 million in fees. This was described as \"a potentially meaningful fee opportunity for providers able to capture the flow\". That is how financial services work. People will make money on these. I reiterate that there is a huge lacuna around fees in the economic assessment. It would be reassuring for us, as legislators, and for the general public, who are the target audience and market for these schemes, to have some reassurance about fees and costs, insofar as the T\u00e1naiste can. In the absence of that, it is a good idea and good practice to have what I propose here - a statement of fees, charges and costs - to introduce the transparency that we do not have, for example, in the pensions industry, which has contributed to a situation where annual management charges on Irish pension pots are among the highest in Europe."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cian O'Callaghan It is incredibly important to have transparency in this area. I have a real fear that a significant amount of the potential gains for individuals could be gobbled up by the level of fees. Yes, financial literacy is important and I support the work that has been done to educate people on financial literacy. However, it is important to have proper transparency by having standardised statements and all the measures that have been suggested. I note that there is a lot of enthusiasm in the industry for these accounts for a variety of reasons. I am sure some of them are well intentioned in terms of the benefits that accrue to people, but I have no doubt that some of the enthusiasm within the industry comes from sections of the industry that are eyeing up potentially quite lucrative fees and revenues from this. Of course there has to be a return for people doing professional work - I have no issue with that - but it needs to be a fair amount. Any measures that increase transparency in this regard are really important. We have all seen over the years the way that different fees can be presented in a way that is not very transparent or easy for individuals to follow or compare. That is why this part of it is really important. That means this is more than just the financial literacy bit, which absolutely is important."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Chathaoirleach Does Deputy Doherty want to come back in?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty No, thanks."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I hear people in relation to this. I hear the point Deputy Nash made about the ship having sailed. We would argue that this is a budget measure and a taxation measure. I accept that there are broader issues in relation to fees that perhaps interact with other parts of the system, including the regulatory system that we already have in place. We have a mature regulatory framework for investments generally regulated at an EU level. Some of them are based on the second markets in financial instruments directive, MiFID 2, and some of them are based on the insurance distribution directive. They provide for uniform disclosures. I link it with the financial literacy piece in terms of making consumers and citizens aware not just of the benefits of the account - why you might want to consider it and why it might not work for you - but also of their rights in terms of information, transparency, fees and disclosures. A useful piece of work could be done in relation to that. I take the point in relation to the Davy research. I also live in the real world. I take Deputy O'Callaghan's point that these banks and providers want to make money. There is nothing wrong with that. We are aware that they have a commercial interest in these. We have a different interest, which is obviously to make sure our citizens have an opportunity to participate in a way that works for them too. I note that the Davy report said that the administrative complexity of these accounts, from a provider perspective, should favour the banks and large providers with existing infrastructure, which should then allow them to price more competitively. Davy has called them out by saying they should be in a position to price more competitively. I am not attaching a value to it but their view of the world, based on what they estimate to be the annual inflows in year 1, is that there will be an estimated management fee of 1%. There is a bit of work done there that is quite interesting too. I am willing to work constructively with colleagues on when we review the account. I am also willing, as part of that, to see how we can look at this issue and have data produced in relation to fees and comparisons. I will crystalise my thinking a little bit more in terms of comments I might be able to make by Report Stage. I do not propose to accept the amendments but I accept the importance of the issue and the need to have continued ongoing engagement on it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I move amendment No. 26: In page 47, line 2, to delete \u201cin the year of assessment\u201d and substitute \u201cfor the year of assessment\u201d."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I move amendment No. 27: In page 48, line 40, to delete \u201crealising\u201d and substitute \u201cliquidating\u201d."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I move amendment No. 28: In page 48, after line 42, to insert the following: \u201c(10) Where a qualifying account provider\u2014 (a) has\u2014 (i) been notified under subsection (2)(a), or (ii) otherwise become aware, that a period of non-residence has begun, and has not ended, in relation to a qualifying individual, and (b) accepts, processes or otherwise gives effect to, without reasonable excuse, a contribution to an individual investment account to which subsection (9) applies, then the qualifying account provider shall be liable to a penalty of \u20ac3,000 in respect of the contribution to the individual investment account.\u201d"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I move amendment No. 29: In page 50, to delete lines 29 to 32 and substitute the following: \u201c(3) A person who makes a declaration under this section that the person knows to be false or misleading in any material respect shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable, on summary conviction, to a fine of \u20ac3,000 or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months, or both.\u201d."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I move amendment No. 30: In page 56, line 1, to delete \u201cappropriate or cancel, as the case may be, such portion\u201d and substitute \u201cdispose of, or otherwise liquidate, such portion\u201d."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I move amendment No. 31: In page 56, line 8, to delete \u201cappropriation or cancellation\u201d and substitute \u201cdisposal or liquidation\u201d."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ged Nash I move amendment No. 32: In page 59, between lines 3 and 4, to insert the following: \u201c(ba) the total amount of fees, charges and costs deducted from, or charged in respect of, the account or the eligible investments held in it during the year of assessment, whether by the qualifying account provider or by any other person, expressed both as an amount in euro and as a percentage of the average investment account value of the account,\u201d."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I move amendment No. 33: In page 62, to delete lines 38 to 43 and substitute the following: \u201c(ii) in any other case, by disposing of, or otherwise liquidating, the eligible investment and transferring the net proceeds to the transferee account provider for the purpose of acquiring an eligible investment to be held in the new individual investment account (in this section referred to as a \u2018liquidation transfer\u2019).\u201d."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I move amendment No. 34: In page 66, lines 32 and 33, to delete \u201cdisposed of or liquidated\u201d and substitute \u201cdisposed of, or otherwise liquidated,\u201d."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I move amendment No. 35: In page 67, lines 4 to 6, to delete \u201cThe exemption from income tax and capital gains tax provided for in section 747P(1) shall apply, in respect of an individual investment account to which this section applies,\u201d and substitute \u201cIn the case of an individual investment account to which this section applies, section 747P(1) shall apply\u201d."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question proposed: \"That section 26, as amended, stand part of the Bill\"."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I have a number of questions relating to specific parts of this section. It covers 35 pages and is a Bill in its own right. It probably should have been afforded that position, which would have allowed for pre-legislative scrutiny. I also will not rehash the fact the economic assessment has just landed on us when we are well through dealing with the Bill. Regarding the previous point I made on access to different types of accounts and the ability to direct your investment, there will be people who are looking for the highest return possible and to invest in the S&P or whatever it is for whatever return they are looking to get. There will then be others who will come at this from the point of view of wanting a very small level of risk and to help the Irish State. They will not be interested in helping oil barons in America or arms factories elsewhere, and they will want to support the State on that. Why will people not be able to invest in Irish State savings with these accounts? These accounts will not be open to people to make the investments in Irish State savings. That monopoly position will still exist with An Post? Is that correct?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Yes, we are not proposing to change the Irish State savings system. That model is remaining in place as is, if I understand the question."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty There are bonds in the Irish State savings. People be able to invest in bonds in other jurisdictions. They will be able to invest in bonds in Korea through this model, but they will not be able to invest in the Irish State savings bonds."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris They will already be able to invest in the State savings products."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty But through this product-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Correct, you will not."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Has the Minister carried out any assessment of the cumbersome nature of investing in the Irish State savings through An Post?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I have not as part of this process, but my Department has more broadly."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I think we can all agree this product will be sought after by a section of society. It has the potential to divert investment away from something less simple or less appealing in that nature. Is there a reason.,through these investment accounts, people could not simply invest in Irish State saving such as the three-year bond or the ten-year bond available through An Post? The returns are more modest, but if people invest in the ten-year bond, the return could be 30% over a ten-year period. Some people might say they are comfortable with this as it is above inflation. It is not above inflation at the minute, but it is above the average level of inflation and they are investing in the State."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I hear what the Deputy is saying. The way we have approached this is to recognise there are two products meeting very different consumer needs. The State savings product and investment account are intended to serve different purposes. The State savings product is a saving instrument and, as the Deputy knows, is issued by the State through the NTMA. It is designed primarily to protect capital and provides a predictable return over a specified period. Investors lend money to the State and in return receive a fixed return. The risk on the capital is low because it is backed by the State and the main objective is security and capital preservation. In contrast, this is intended to encourage participation in capital markets. I am not disputing the broader point the Deputy made. Encouraging people to avail of State Savings products and making them aware of them as part of the campaign to make people aware of the investment product is not a bad point, but they fulfil different roles. No investment products issued by the Ireland State Savings framework will be eligible because they are not listed on a regulated market, but constitute non-marketable retail products issued directly to individuals."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty The Minister is creating a situation where people will be offered different investment products and will have to go to a different house, through An Post, to get State Savings products. If the Minister is encouraging people to do it, this is one of the areas he should be encouraging with an easy access door through that option, which many people will have on their phones, to invest in State Savings products. I will leave that there, but the Minister may want to reply."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris While I am clear in my mind, as the Deputy is in his, about the difference between the investment account and State Savings, I am not dismissive of the point he made about showing people the full range of options available to them. I will reflect on that in the body of work we need to do, because, for some people, the State Savings investment product might be the best one. I do not dispute that and this might be an opportunity to promote it again. Let me reflect on the point."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty As part of this section, it is explicit that no interest can be applied to cash held in the account. We talked about financial literacy. We should start this with the point that if people put their money in these accounts, it will be at risk. We can all start at that point. People could lose their money or a significant portion of it. This is therefore not for everyone. If they put money in the bank, they will get a return. It is likely to be below inflation, which means the value of the money is diminishing and then we tax the return at a rate of 33%. Is that correct?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Yes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Does the Minister know who will keep their small deposits in the bank? It will be people who are risk-averse. The people who are risk-averse are those who cannot afford to lose a couple of thousand euro. They are low-income individuals and they will be taxed on any gains they make. In the context of introducing this tax-free system, the Government is not allowing for a cash account, which is problematic. What will happen is that low-income individuals will still have a few thousand euro on deposit in their accounts and the State will take one third of the interest accrued on it. Yet, if they can afford to put it into an investment, the State will allow them the gains tax free. There is a problem with deposit interest retention tax, DIRT, now. The Government now needs to examine DIRT and how it is applied to modest savings in bank accounts or the State could provide what is provided in other jurisdictions, a cash individual savings account, ISA, which allows for people to say they cannot afford to take a risk. They might be petrified of the interdependence with AI and what could happen to it. They need the money for something. Johnny is going to university in five years and this money is for his fees or whatever. Therefore, they may want to hold a modest amount in cash and they are not being provided with an option to do so in this account. That is a mistake, because the State will be forcing them to hold the cash in a bank account, in which we know - and they will know if they are financially literate - their money is reducing year on year because of inflation. Not only that, but the State also gives them a kick on the way out the door by taking a third of the gains, even though the gains are modest in the first instance. There are two parts to this. Either we deal with DIRT on small amounts of savings in financial institutions or introduce a cash ISA. Why has the Minister not allowed for a cash ISA for those individuals? I talked about the concentration earlier because the reality is that a lot of people will not be able to take the risk, and they should not take it. The other thing is there is a danger that the State is putting them in a position where they will take the risk. As I mentioned, this will go up and down. At the moment, it depends on what Trump tweets. I guarantee the markets are being manipulated. It depends on what happens. People will panic and withdraw at a loss because they cannot afford the risk. However, if there was a cash ISA, with an appropriate return and a tax-free scenario for a modest amount, it would be more appropriate."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Chathaoirleach Does anyone else want to speak? Does Deputy Aird want to say a few words?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I have a lot of other questions, but I will not go through them all together. It is better to deal with them as we are on the subject. Otherwise we will be jumping from residency to different bits because this is 37 pages. Usually this would be separate sections, but it is up to everyone."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell We will also take a break shortly."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Chathaoirleach Does Deputy Aird want to speak?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy William Aird I am not a member of this committee, but I came in because I am interested in the scheme, as everyone here has said they are. They are asking questions and it is right and proper to answer questions on it. An ordinary individual who wants to put a few pounds aside would have started with the old bound book in the post office or gone to the credit union. His money was guaranteed and he was getting very little interest on it. There is more to this than that. I will talk about how I learned the tricks of the trade. This will help people with investments who know nothing about investing money. They will start small, see how their money is working and learn as it goes along. It will give them an interest in stocks and shares. I never knew anything about stocks and shares, but I knew I only had \u00a310 and I went to the mart after my holy communion and bought two calves. I gave \u00a37 for one and \u00a33 for the other. What was meant to happen was that the \u00a33 calf would increase to \u00a35 and the \u00a37 calf would double its value because of the quality of the animal. The opposite happened so I learned from that. The point I am making is that I would have loved for this scheme to have been out when I was growing up so at a young age I could have tried out something like this. I know what Deputy Doherty is saying, but this is a new opportunity for everyone to get involved. They do not have to go down to the post office, put in their money and look at it devalue, and the DIRT be applied, as the Deputy said. This is opening up a whole new world to small savers. Everyone is to be complimented, including the committee. Members are asking questions, but I compliment everyone associated with the scheme. It is a brilliant scheme and I look forward to seeing, in the interim results, how it is going and how money will progress for people. I have no doubt people will get a return, as long as they stay with whatever investment they make. If people put in small money, they will go for the low risk. From reading and hearing about the scheme, I do not see people with huge amounts of money putting money into this, because they would not get any kick out of it. That is my honest opinion. It is the small, first-time investor like me who will take a punt and see how he comes out at the end of it. This is a great scheme. It is something new and gives us all something to look forward do, including young savers. It is fierce important. It is like getting the old piggy bank when we were young until we discovered we could open the back and take the money out. Is that not what it was about, parents getting children to save? This is a new thing, moving on with the times. That is all I have to say."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Chathaoirleach Does anyone else want to contribute? No. The question is that section 26-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell We have other questions on the section."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty The Minister is going to respond to my question and I have a series of other questions."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell I am conscious of the time."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Will I respond now or does the Leas-Chathaoirleach want to take the break now? Whatever he wishes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I ask that T\u00e1naiste respond on this one, and then we might suspend after that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Chathaoirleach When the T\u00e1naiste has finished responding, we will suspend."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I will respond briefly. This is a scheme that we want to be available to everyone, but Deputy Doherty is right that it is also a scheme that may not work for everyone at every stage of their life. I have heard people, not at this committee but in the past, compare this with the Eircom shares. There is a difference. The Government and others at that time were trying to encourage people to buy Eircom shares. We are not trying to encourage people to take something out; we are trying to make it available as a product that is available to certain people and that will work for them on the basis of their getting the right advice available. I want to make that clear. It is certainly not an alternative to your deposit account. It is not an alternative to your savings account. It is after that. I hear what Deputy Doherty is saying. We do not have a savings problem in this country, though. I do not say that in a blas\u00e9 way or flippantly. I understand that there is a cost-of-living crisis and that people are under pressure, but the statistics actually show that we do not have a savings problem. People in Ireland are saving - they might be small amounts, but they are saving - but we do have the problem the Deputy points out in terms of people getting any sort of return on that. I accept that point. That is why we are trying to enable people who have been locked out of having that opportunity due to either complexity and-or tax but who now have the opportunity to participate if it works for them. Going back to Deputy Doherty's earlier point, which was a constructive one, perhaps you are that person who has that money, and maybe promoting the State savings product as part of this is a constructive thing to do because that has much more certainty and much more security around it than an investment account has. Maybe that needs to be part of the conversation too. The final comment I will make on this is to Deputy Aird's point. What I took from what he said is that the cultural change here is the benefit. There are already lots of people out there, generally younger, with these in their hands. We will not name the providers now, but because of the introduction of these online providers and the likes in Ireland, those people are already perhaps, for want of a better phrase, dabbling or trying out things in terms of purchasing things or fractions of things without, quite frankly, being a 100% sure some of the time what they are doing. This is an opportunity, and I think there is a whole generation of people around that age who are excited to try to get involved in it. However, we need to be honest with people. It is definitely not a get-rich-quick scheme. It is to try in a way that is affordable and manageable for people to build up savings over time - no more, no less. I will pause there and deal with the rest of this after the suspension."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an su\u00ed ar fionra\u00ed ar 4.02 p.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 4.39 p.m."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sitting suspended at 4.02 p.m. and resumed at 4.39 p.m."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Chathaoirleach We continue on section 26. Does anyone want to speak to it?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Yes, I do. I take it from the Minister's previous comment that he is not open to looking at a cash ISA. I hear what he says about the levels of savings. However, he is not open to looking at DIRT in the context of the impact or unfairness, if we want to call it that, that this will have for people who do not want to take that risk. Regarding a Deputy who joined us earlier, we need to be careful that we are not encouraging people to do this. To me, it sounded a bit like when I was in the Seanad and former Senator Donie Cassidy was telling people it was the time to buy, just as the arse fell out of the economy and people lost their shirt. He was telling people to buy houses and all the rest. None of us knows what the future is. None of us can predict that. People who invest in these types of product need to be fully aware. I take it that the Minster is not looking at this. He can respond to clarify that, or if it is something he wishes to give-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Sure. I have three points in this regard. First, I agree with the idea of public awareness, financial literacy and all of that being very much directed at giving people the factual information to make the right decisions for their lives, rather than promotional information encouraging people to take up an account. I am quite clear on that in my mind, and that is why I was eager to have the financial literacy people appointed and ensure a role for the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, CCPC, which I think we all agree does a good job in that space. Second, I am not minded around the cash ISA-type piece. I have looked at the other areas and countries that have done this. There is a significant fiscal drag. I take the point the Deputy made but I still believe we do not have a savings problem; we have an investment challenge. Third, regarding DIRT, we are not proposing bringing forward any additional tax changes above and beyond what we did in the budget, but we will keep those issues under review."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty The last point I will say on this is that the problem we have with savings is that there is a lack of return on them."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris That is also true, yes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty That is the issue. I will move on to different parts of the section. Most of it is straightforward enough. It is straightforward enough until we see it in operation and then we may need to iron out chinks in it. I will turn to proposed new section 747L, which deals with the establishment of individual investment accounts. It states, \"A qualifying account provider may, on or after 1 January 2027, provide and operate accounts ... in accordance with this Part.\" It is from 1 January 2027."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Yes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Accounts will be offered at that stage, but they will not be operational until July."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Sorry, no. We have announced that 1 July will be the launch date for the investment accounts. The Bill, as published, included a reference to 1 January 2027 as the earliest date by which accounts could be provided, but the legislation is subject to a commencement order. Investment accounts will not be launched until 1 July 2027. A Committee Stage amendment has been introduced to remove the reference to 1 January and avoid any confusion. For absolute clarity, the launch date for investment accounts is 1 July 2027."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Okay, it is 1 July 2027. That is when they will go live. Is that correct?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris That is correct."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty That is when they will go live, when people can put their money in and all the rest. I presume that there will be an offer of these accounts beforehand. When do we expect qualifying account providers to offer these accounts?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris From April."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty From April."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Sorry, excuse me, I said that quickly. Let me give the Deputy the-----."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Sorry."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris To be fully technically accurate, providers will be able to register as providers of these accounts from April."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Okay, that responds-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Prospective providers will be able to put their hands up and say that they wish to provide accounts and to be registered as providers of accounts in April. The accounts then-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty That date is not included. It does not exist in the legislation."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris It is not required in the legislation."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Okay, it is not required. That is fine. They can register from April. The Central Bank will publish the list of those registered. I presume that is going to be a rolling list. Is that correct?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I ask the Deputy to repeat that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I presume it is going to be a rolling, live list. It is not something that it will publish on 1 April or 1 July."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris It will be published by our colleagues in Revenue. It will be a rolling list. Prospective providers will be able to apply from April, but they will also be able to join the list. It is a rolling list."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty There will be a rolling list. Obviously, everyone is inundated with scams and what not. I presume that scammers will be looking at these types of product because they will be new and unfamiliar to people. Revenue will have a list of authorised providers as soon as they are approved, or as soon as practical after approval, and that list will go up on a website so that people can inform themselves. Is that correct?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Yes, a list of qualified providers will be available as soon as practical and possible. Revenue will maintain what we are calling a public register of qualifying account providers. It must publish it on its website. The register will show the provider\u2019s name, business address and date of registration."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Okay. I will stick with the proposed new section 747L, if that helps, as we are going through it. If any other member wishes to jump in, they can do so."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell I have questions, but they are more general. Deputy Doherty can proceed."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I will deal with the issue of switching providers later, as it is in a later section. I will address section 747L(4). It states: Where a qualifying individual closes an individual investment account at any time during a year of assessment\u2014 (a) that individual shall not, during that same year of assessment, open another individual investment account ... It then goes on to clarify that it does not apply in the context of switching where one account is being opened temporarily as the other account is being transferred over. What is the rationale behind this? I am thinking of someone who decides to close their account in January because they might have got spooked by the market. They then receive some financial advice or whatever and wish to open an account again in July. They are now going to be prevented in law from doing that. What is the rationale for that?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris It is a good question. For that year, they are going to be prevented because there is no mechanism in place to be able to transfer the information from one provider to the next. We need to make sure that when people open an account, they are limited to a single account and that we are not permitting the reopening of a closed account within the same year. This is to allow providers to establish system controls and processes necessary to operate the new framework and monitor compliance. The investor will not be allowed to open a new account until the following year. This goes back to the point the Deputy made about things like the annual contribution limit. We will not have an ability to monitor that as it passes from one provider to the other within the year. We are going to look at this in future Finance Bills but, for the initial year, if an individual opens an account with one provider and decides to close it down in the middle of the year, we do not have an ability to inform the other provider about the amount of money put into the account."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Why-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris People can decide to transfer an account, but we are now back to the switching point. People can decide to transfer."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Why do not we use the same mechanism that applies in the case of switching providers? It will be a case of switching for the majority of people. It will be based on fees or whatever. It might be as a result of reputational issues with some providers that may be involved in some hooky stuff. However, some people might close their accounts, for whatever reason. People will close their accounts and they might reconsider opening other accounts, but they will be prevented from doing so. Depending on what part of the calendar year they are in, they may miss out on ten months or whatever. Why do we not use the provisions that exist within a later section that deals with switching providers? In that case, basically, it goes to the Central Bank. People notify the provider with which they are opening an account that they have a previous account and the provider then notifies the Central Bank, which, in turn, notifies the previous account holder. The account is opened on the day and the information is transferred, but no deposits can be made until the information is transferred. Why do we not use what is already in law \u2013 or going to be in law - to facilitate this?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Logically, I do not disagree with the Deputy but I am told that there are technical challenges in this regard. Let me reflect and revert to the Deputy on Report Stage. The switching issue is clear - people can switch providers - but if they make the decision to close down their accounts, we are not confident that they will be able to pass on the information. Let me clarify it, however."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty That is fine. I will move to the proposed section 747M."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Say again."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I am moving to proposed section 747M, which deals with a change of residence of qualifying individuals. We discussed this a bit already and the Minister has taken on board the request to examine the scenario of the nurse in Lifford moving to Strabane. This section deals with scenarios where someone leaves the State for a period of one year and is not going to be resident within the State for that year. The example of a young person is given. They have the account for a couple of years. If they decide they are heading to Australia for three years, what happens in this case? Correct me if I am wrong, but if they are heading off in July, they can still make contributions, or can they make contributions, right throughout the year and it is just in the following year they are not able to make contributions because they are leaving in July of the year of departure. Is that correct?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris If the individual leaves the State with the intention of being non-resident, either in the year they depart or the following year, they do not have to close the account, as the Deputy correctly said. It can remain as an individual investment account but it effectively freezes. The individual has to notify the provider without undue delay at the start and end of the period of non-residence. No contributions should be made to the account during the period of non-residency and the provider must stop accepting contributions within 30 days after the relevant date."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Can I just stop the Minister there? When he is talking about the period of non-residence, that is what I want to focus on. On the period of non-residence for anybody who is leaving the State, let us again talk about a nurse going to Australia in July. We would all see that as her being non-resident from July, but the legislation does not see it that way. Is that correct? The legislation defines the period of non-residence as somebody who is not there for the entire year of the year of departure, and if somebody is partially there in the year of departure, it is the following year that counts as them not being there for the full year. Is that correct?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris As it is quite technical, I will read it out. The period of non-residence begins either on the date when the individual leaves the State with the intention that he or she will not be in the State for a year - the date they go - or where the individual will be resident in the State in the year they depart but their intention is not to be resident in the following year - the first day of the following year."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Okay. I do want to be awkward but maybe it is just me not understanding this. If the nurse leaves in July and heads to Australia, and she is going for three years, when does the period of non-residence occur in that scenario? Is it July?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris It is July."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty It is July of that year, okay. That is from section 747M(1)(a)(i), is it? That is where we take July from. It says \"where the individual leaves the State in a year of assessment ... [which is the current year] in circumstances where the individual intends that he or she will not be resident in the State for the departure year... [which is this year] the date on which the individual first leaves the State with such an intention\", which would be July."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris That is July."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty The next subparagraph says \"where the individual leaves the State in the departure year ... [which is this year] in circumstances where he or she shall be resident in the State for the departure year, but with the intention that he or she shall not be resident in the State for the year of assessment following the departure year, the first day of the year of assessment following the departure year\". Could the Minister explain that part?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris It reads a bit funny, does it not? My understanding is it is where somebody is leaving in December and they will not be here for the following year. To me as a lay person, it is a bit superfluous but it obviously is required for some reason. The point is you are meant to be non-resident from the moment you leave the State. There could be scenarios where we are just making it clear that if you are leaving-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell Is that the-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris It could be that you are bridging the two-year period."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I would read this differently."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Go ahead, please."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty The problem with section 747M(1)(a)(i) the way I read it is that where the nurse leaves, she will not be resident in the State for the departure year. The departure year is 2026 but the nurse is resident in the State in the departure year. She is because she was here from January until July. Therefore, I do not believe that subparagraph applies to her. I believe it is the second subparagraph that applies to her, which reads \"where the individual leaves the State in the departure year in circumstances where he or she shall be resident in the State for the departure year\" because she has been here from January until July \"but with the intention that he or she shall not be resident in the State for the year of assessment following the departure year\", which is next year, it is then \"the first day of the year\" that follows that is her date of non-residency."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris The Deputy is correct. It is to do with the length of time she has been in the State. Picking July is an interesting example. If she has done the 183 days, it actually applies in the second year. To use the nurse as the example, it depends on when she leaves during the year. With that example, I think the nurse is captured by the second point where the individual will be resident in the year they depart but their intention is-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty This is the issue here. We need to tease this out a wee bit further. If the nurse leaves us in July to go to Australia, is the period of non-residence 1 January the following year?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris That is correct."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Okay. The Minister made the point that the reason is she would be here for 183 days but that is tax residency. This has nothing to do with tax residency and there is no definition."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris It is linked to tax residency."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Okay. When we were dealing with it earlier on, we were dealing with residency. The legislation deals with the fact you have to be resident but there is no definition of residence in this section. It does not suggest it, unless I am missing it. This section is 37 pages long. Correct me if I am wrong but there is no definition of period of non-residence bar the section itself. It does not stipulate it is actually tax residency."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris It is tax residency. On the conversation we have had over the last little while about a number of things, we should make that clearer."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty What are the consequences of that? You can leave the State and still be tax resident here."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Let us take a step back. Individual assessment accounts are intended for individuals who are resident in the State. An individual must be resident in the State at the time of opening the account. We all get that. Section 747M deals with periods of non-residence of account holders. That is what we are now discussing. Under the provision, a qualifying individual who leaves the State in certain circumstances is treated as having a period of non-residence and must notify the account provider of the commencement and ending of such a period. The notification requirement is an intention-based rule. It is based on whether the individual leaves the State with the intention of not being resident in the year following departure. This intention-based rule is determined by reference to the residence rules, as set out in section 819 of the Tax Consolidation Act 1997."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty The residency rule is the tax residency?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Yes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty We are dealing with people here who are leaving the State and not actually changing their tax residency. We are then talking about tax residency as well. I just do not think that is very clear. Maybe it is very clear to the Minister's officials but I do not see it as clear at all."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris It might be clearer to our Revenue officials. Let us reflect on the point the Deputy has made."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I have made my point about this."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris The Deputy has made it well."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty So-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Sorry to cut across but in the interest of clarity, we will provide a note to members of the committee separate and distinct to this conversation we are having because it merits setting this out in writing too."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Okay. When we deal with subparagraph (ii) - this is the last point to look at for the note for the committee - it says \"where the individual leaves the State in the departure year in circumstances where he or she shall be resident in the State for the departure year\" but with the intention they will not be for the following year, it is the next year when we deal with the issue of them being non-resident. On being resident in the State for the departure year, the Minister says that means tax residency but that is not what it says here. It actually talks about leaving the State. Leaving the State is not a change of tax residency. The issue here is that an individual could return and that nurse could come back for Christmas every year and would not have a period of non-residence. If it is residence, there is no stipulation as to the length of time. It says if they are here at all by being resident in the State for the departure year, it is the following year they are away. Let us get the note that will clarify everything that needs to be clarified."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris There are definitions of residency already defined in the taxation Act and we are taking it from that Act. Let us set it out in a note."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty It may be helpful in the definitions here to define what we are talking about here. This is section 747O, which concerns the declaration on opening an individual investment account. Subsection (1)(c)(iv) provides that it is not permitted to hold a joint account with another person. The Minister has talked about introducing child accounts, so joint accounts may be available in the future. Some people manage their finances as household finances, but this would mean they could not do that. Has any consideration been given to that? A person can have a joint account with a financial institution or a credit union, but not here. This product will not allow for that. I know it could change things significantly, but for some people it is about controlling access to family or household money and income. The account will now have to be in the name of one individual or the other, or the money could be split evenly between two accounts. What was the thinking behind ruling out joint accounts?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris It is a fair question, and I take the Deputy\u2019s point about control and financial independence, which is not a small point. The priority is to introduce the account and keep it as simple, efficient and administratively straightforward as possible. The view was that individual accounts would allow contribution limits and tax rules to be applied more easily, provide clear ownership of assets and help providers to establish their systems and processes. I do not rule out returning to the issue. The experience in other countries, including with the ISA in Britain, has also been of individual accounts."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Section 747Q concerns the charge to investment account tax. It deals with payment of the tax on the excess above \u20ac50,000. Is the qualifying account provider required to pay the tax in all cases, or is there a section dealing with the individual\u2019s liability?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris The intention is that the provider pays the tax. The liability to pay it rests with the provider."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty What happens where the account is closed or the cash is withdrawn before the assessment, which will be in March of the following year?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris The legislation provides that Revenue can recover any unpaid investment account tax, IAT, from the qualifying individual. Revenue may send the individual a statement of liability, which can be treated as an assessment. This is without prejudice to the provider's liability, and any double payment is repaid or credited. Revenue will draft regulations to provide for the manner and circumstances in which a qualifying individual would be required to pay. It is intended, however, that a qualifying individual will be required to pay the IAT only where a provider has not withheld the IAT due on the individual\u2019s investment account. The policy intent is that providers pay the liability. In the circumstances the Deputy describes, Revenue has the opportunity to pursue the unpaid tax."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Will the Minister's officials point me to the part of the section that absolves the qualifying account provider of the requirement to make that payment in those circumstances?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris We will get that for the Deputy momentarily. On page 52, subsection (6) states, \"Notwithstanding subsection (3), a qualifying account provider, with whom a qualifying individual holds an individual investment account on 31 December\"."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty That is the section I am looking at. It states that the provider is accountable for and liable to pay the tax to the Revenue Commissioners. Where is the section that says the provider does not have that liability if the account is closed or the money is withdrawn?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I am getting that now, but it is in the Bill. It is on page 60, section 747U, subsection (3), under the heading \"Assessments\". It states, \"A Revenue officer may, in respect of a year of assessment, send a qualifying individual\"."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I am familiar with that subsection, but it only empowers Revenue to send the individual an assessment. The subsection on page 52 states clearly that the qualifying account provider is accountable for and liable to pay the Revenue Commissioners. From my reading, it does not absolve the provider of that liability at any point. Paragraph (b) allows the account provider to deduct or otherwise collect the tax from the individual investment account or, with the consent of the qualifying individual, by any other means. However, it does not provide that the provider is not liable to pay the tax if, when the assessment is carried out the following year, the money is not there because the account has been closed or the money withdrawn."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Our understanding is that Revenue is satisfied that the provider of the account will deal with that in its own terms and conditions if the account is closed. We will seek clarity, but we are satisfied that it is clear."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty The last area on which I want clarification is section 747R, and I want to deal with switching, too. This concerns a contribution in excess of the \u20ac12,000 limit. There is a formula to calculate a penalty that would be applied. For the committee\u2019s record, will the Minister discuss the impact of that penalty and how severe it is? Subsection (8) provides that this should not happen in the first instance. On my reading, if the operator does it, there will be a penalty of \u20ac3,000 in respect of that account. What I am reading is that it is not allowed and if it happens, then there is a penalty as a result. If the operator allows it to happen without reasonable excuse, there will be a penalty of \u20ac3,000. Will the Minister discuss the (P + Q) \u2013 R formula and how severe the penalty is?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris It is useful to set this out. The question is what happens if an investor contributes more than the contribution limit in a year of assessment. For each relevant month, IAT is charged at 1% of the outstanding excess amount at the end of the month, and this continues until the excess is eliminated by withdrawals. The charge applies whether or not the account is subject to a charge to IAT for the year of assessment in which there is an excess amount. In addition, and as the Deputy said, the provider is liable to a \u20ac3,000 penalty in respect of each contribution if, without reasonable excuse, it accepts a contribution that causes the contribution limit to be exceeded. To give an example, if \u20ac15,000 is contributed in March, the excess contribution is \u20ac3,000 and March is the excess month. If the excess is not withdrawn, IAT is calculated at 1% of the \u20ac3,000 per month. This gives a liability of \u20ac30 per month, a total of \u20ac300 from March to December. The charge on excess contributions continues into later years until the excess is withdrawn. If the \u20ac3,000 is withdrawn in June of that year, June\u2019s outstanding excess is nil, so only March, April and May are subject to the charge to IAT on excess contributions, and the total liability is \u20ac90."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty That is fine. My next question relates to switching. There is a problem with switching mortgages. In this day and age, this should not be a big problem. However, the process is still is too cumbersome. People get fed up with and just do not do it, even though it is in their interests. We are looking at paper-based stuff which slows down the whole issue. Obviously, when it comes to mortgages, there are valuations, deeds and burdens, so it is different. The ease of switching these accounts will be really important. The way the legislation is drafted, it appears that there should be a seamless ability to switch. It should be like switching electricity accounts. It does not seem to be quite bureaucratic. From my understanding and from what is contained in the legislation, people will probably just have to provide their PPS numbers and proof of age and address. There will be three documents to be provided for switching. Have there been conversations with the industry on how easy it will be to switch? The T\u00e1naiste will know that with some financial providers, it can all be done on your phone. They do your identification on your phone and sometimes there is a wee video. In fairness, high-street banks are catching up with the others that are leading on this. We need a simple system that allows people to switch without having to jump through hoops. It reminds me of when Ulster Bank locked people out of their accounts for weeks on end. Very few people left the bank at that time, which did not make any sense. It spoke to the fact that people just get used to their providers and think that switching is too much hassle or whatever. It is important that the switching process in this regard is backed up with the technology that allows it to happen seamlessly. On paper, it looks okay. The section basically states that when you open a new account, you go to the new provider and it does the work for you. You give your information and it gives the relevant information to you. It then notifies the Central Bank and opens the account, but you cannot make deposits until the historic statement comes from the other provider. From recollection, there is no stipulation in the legislation regarding the timeframe to provide that information. What is to prevent a provider from taking a handful of days or longer to do that? Is there anything that would make sure it is seamless?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris It is an important area because the aim is to empower the individual in a way, as the Deputy rightly said, that they are not necessarily as empowered as we would like them to be in making this as easy to switch other financial products. The process is an individual contacts a new provider and requests that the new provider accept a transfer of their account. Where the new provider accepts the transfer request, the new provider deals with Revenue and the existing account provider to facilitate the account transfer. The new provider gives Revenue a notice of transfer and pretty much as the Deputy said, the notice of transfer includes the name, address, PPS number of the individual, the name of the transferrer account provider, account number and the request date. The new provider opens the new account and sends a transfer history request to the transferrer account provider. The new account cannot accept new contributions until the transferrer response is received which includes the transfer history and transfer of eligible investments and cash standing to the existing account. Once the transferrer account provider receives the transfer history request, no contributions, withdrawals are other transactions are allowed except as needed for the transfer. The transferrer account provider sends a transfer history to the new provider. Any cash in the existing account is transferred. The investment can transfer in specie if both providers expressly agree. Otherwise, it is liquidated and the net proceeds are transferred to the new account. This is an area that is working well with industry. We have a technical forum now under way to develop the system for providers. Revenue will have a system that will allow for checks of eligibility which is good. There has been engagement with providers which led to the design. The Revenue system being developed for the individual investment account will allow real-time eligibility checking that a provider will be required to carry out before a potential investor can open a new account. The Revenue system will raise a flag if the individual is not a qualifying individual. It is a fair point as to why there are no fixed time limits in the legislation. It is worth taking into account that the timelines can vary in particular if an eligible asset is being transferred in specie . This is an area I truthfully believe is working very well between Revenue, the providers and the technical forum. I have tried to outline the minimal level of information people will have to provide to make this work in that seamless fashion. This is in a good space."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty How long does the T\u00e1naiste envisage it will take for the documentation to be provided to the other provider? The reason I ask is people cannot make any contributions during this period so there is an impact. It is not just a frustration."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris It is a fair question. I am reluctant to put a specific timeline. I will check that. We are expecting it to be quick and without delay. I do not know whether to put a period of time on it because it can vary in specific situations."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty The last part of this section deals with the regulations Revenue will bring in, which is quite significant, but it does not appear that Revenue could bring in regulations in relation to that if it needed."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris On foot of this conversation, which has been useful, we will endeavour to address this in regulation as well once we have concluded the technical forum work."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell I have a few questions I did not get to ask earlier. I do not want to rehash everything again. It is difficult when you are in the Chair; you cannot really ask questions. I could have jumped out but it would have been messy. I am interested in the analysis in the economic report where the lowest five deciles of household wealth are put together. If he does not have it now, will the T\u00e1naiste provide information to the committee on how many millions of euro will be invested by those in the first, second and third deciles of the population? He might not have it now, just if he can."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I do not have it now. I am not sure if we have it full stop in the sense that I am not sure if it is broken down. Let me check. If we do, I will, but I do not think we do."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell It is interesting that those first five deciles are grouped together."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I am told that the ECB statistics do not break it down that way and that we provided the most granular details we can. Let me confirm that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell That is interesting. It is a bit mental that the ECB would not do so. That is not on the Minister but obviously we would want to know."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Sure."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell The T\u00e1naiste and the Minister of State, Deputy Troy, have constantly been talking about making financial literacy stronger. I feel it would be important to look at that in more detail. If the figures are not available, they are not available. The T\u00e1naiste spoke a lot about getting people who are inexperienced with investing to use this scheme. Being realistic, that is a huge portion of the population. There are also younger people - I think Deputy Aird was talking about younger people who are just beginning to save - and lower paid workers who have not built up significant savings. I imagine they are the kind of people the Minister is also targeting when he talks about this. He has also said today that this should not be a substitute for a deposit savings account. If he is talking about people with less wealth to put into different things, I am just interested in how he squares that circle. He is saying that people should not put all their money into this and that they should have a savings account, but my concern is that most people in that target group, if the Minister is talking about realistically having the two different types of account, for a small amount of money, if he gets what I am saying - sorry, I am a bit tired from all the chairing-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I understand."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell -----so I might not be as clear as what I am trying to say. That is what I am getting at. I am wondering how that would work. I am concerned that, unintentionally, we might have a situation where those who are that bit better off would be more able to use it than those who might not be able to reap the benefit, even if that is not the policy intent. The Minister cannot give financial advice, but my understanding is that he is not recommending that people with a small amount of savings use this as their exclusive savings account. That is what I have understood from what he has said today. Regarding economic shocks and the impact they could have on people, I think Deputy Doherty or somebody said we have been living in a place where one person can tweet and it can have a massive impact economically. How is the Minister looking at that? How concerned is he about how this scheme will interact with any external global economic shocks and the impact that could have on people's savings? We know that these things can go up and down, etc. - I am totally aware of that - but we are also talking about people who are inexperienced investors. I am conscious of that. Again, I do not think any of my scenarios are the intent of any of this, but it is something worth teasing out. I did not get a chance to speak so I wanted to mention those few points. That is all I have at the moment."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I find myself in agreement with a lot of what the Deputy has said. While the focus of this committee and the discussion in general, quite rightly, is on the detail of the account, how much can be put in a year, what the tax is, etc., and I understand that entirely, when we come back a bit, one of the bigger prizes for the country over a sustained period is actually to try to get a bit of a retail investment culture going. I cannot remember the full statistics now, but while we are statistically among the best savers in Europe, we have among one of the lowest rates of participation in retail investment. That is a very big gap. I am not looking to say we want to be the best at retail investment in Europe, but it is too big a gap. All of the data shows us that, as our population ages and the pressure on the State, regardless of who is in government and all that, we need to build up resilience for people. That is the ultimate objective. The point I want to be really clear on, and the Deputy is right, is that this investment account is available for everybody but it will not be suitable for everybody. That is an important point we should make. Either that or at least it might not be suitable for everyone at every stage of their life. I fully acknowledge that many households will be facing cost-of-living pressures. For some people, paying the bills day to day is a big enough challenge. Building up a cash-saving buffer might be their priority as a home. As the Deputy rightly said, I should definitely not give out financial advice, but people should take that financial advice. What we have a duty of care and an obligation as a Department and in the Oireachtas to do is to make sure that there is as much advice available as possible. That is why we are working very closely with the CCPC. The purpose of the account is an additional option. It is an additional option for those who have money available to invest and who wish to seek a higher long-term return than will be available from a deposit account. That is why there is no minimum contribution at all. In fact, somebody could decide they are going to put in a very small amount on a very regular basis. Somebody else could decide they are not going to do that but they got a lump sum - people can randomly get a lump sum - and they are going to put a bit of that into it. What we are trying to do is expand choice here but not create an expectation that everybody has to do this. We talked about 1 July. The date of 1 July is not an instruction to open the account on that date or you have missed the window. There is no obligation for a person to open it on 1 July. There is no obligation to open it in 2027. That is the kick-off point. We get accused often in politics of short-termism. I want to be really clear. The success of this will not be measured by how many accounts are opened in 2027 or anything like that. This is something that we need to build up over time. I think the CCPC does very good work. I think we need to do a much better job of making people aware of some of the work that it actually does. It launched on budget day a new investment readiness tool. It takes a few minutes to assess a person's readiness. That is available to our citizens today. It indicates whether a person has financial capacity to invest now. It provides suggested next steps, other financial things that might be better, such as paying off high-cost debt and the likes of that. The first focus should really be on getting as many people as possible to be aware of it and use it. The Deputy asked another fair question back to how a tweet can move the dial these days. Asking whether now is the appropriate time to do this is not an unfair question."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell The question was not on the time but the concern of an economic shock. I assume now that one tweet can move the dial, but if we are in this kind of scenario at the moment, I cannot see that shifting massively in the next period, no matter who is president of where. It just shows how instantly things can happen. The concern is in relation to that impact for those workers who do not have huge swathes of money and are using it as solely a return. If it goes up and down, that is fine, but I am asking about people who will be largely hoping for a bit of return in that sense. I do not mean that just in this timeframe because I do not see that changing any time soon, to be honest."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I think that is right. This is the cultural change piece, and cultural change is hard, because we are asking people to try to take a longer term look. We are not obligating them; they can reach their money whenever they want to take it out. I am not trying to do the thing of a politician telling an anecdote but we meet these people who go to the credit union and kind of rigidly do everything, put something away - it might be very small - and they might not touch it for many years, and we are trying to say to people, and some people do try to do this, that perhaps a little proportion of that might actually be better off going into this account. I am conscious that these are all individual choices people have to make with the best information. It is not an SSIA or that people have to get on board on 1 July. It is just another option. It is an option we need in this country because it is one that so many other people now have available in other countries and we do not."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell I will make a final point. I am happy to be proven wrong, but my concern is that it ends up just being those who are that bit better off. I know the Minister is saying it is not for the wealthy to build wealth, but I have a slight concern that this is what could end up happening. We will see that when we look at the figures. None of us can actually predict that. It is a concern I have that I wanted to put on the record."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I accept the Deputy's point. We will all see, in the sense that no one can predict, but I would be disappointed if that ends up being the case. I think there is an opportunity for financial providers to work with their customer base, to have informed conversations that, over time, empower our citizens to make better financial decisions than we are probably all making in our lives today. Let us see is right."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I recall what I wanted to clarify. I assume it is all fine from my reading of it, but I want it clarified for the record. In section 747H, under the interpretation of this section, it deals with eligible account providers. The definitions give us a list from (a) to (i) of eligible account providers. Will the Minister clarify that all these categories of potential account providers are deemed financial service providers already and, therefore, fall under the scope of the Financial Services and Pensions Ombudsman, FSPO?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris \"Yes\" is the answer."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I am conscious that there is a statutory obligation now being placed on these providers to deduct a charge that will originate from Revenue, so there is a tax matter where issues of dispute can be dealt with through Revenue and appeals. In relation to the jurisdiction of the FSPO, however, section 44 of the FSPO Act talks about the conduct of a financial service provider. Does that legislation allow for complaints concerning the operation and administration of these accounts to be fully investigated by the FSPO? Is that already covered by section 44, which deals with conduct, or would some types of complaint fall out of its jurisdiction in relation to the operation and administration of these accounts? I am conscious that Revenue will raise the charge."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris We want to be fully sure, so we will come back with a note to confirm that that is the case."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty A hundred percent. The intention here is-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris The intention is for that to be the case."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty -----to clarify it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I appreciate that."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"NEW SECTIONS"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ged Nash I move amendment No. 36: In page 71, between lines 20 and 21, to insert the following: \u201cReport on fees and charges applied to individual investment accounts 27. The Minister for Finance shall, within twelve months of the passing of this Act, following consultation with the Central Bank of Ireland, prepare and lay before D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann a report on the fees, charges and costs applied to individual investment accounts (within the meaning of Part 27A of the Principal Act), which report shall set out\u2014 (a) the range and average of the total annual fees, charges and costs, expressed as a percentage of account value, applied by qualifying account providers, (b) the effect of those fees, charges and costs on the net return to qualifying individuals, as compared with the value of the tax treatment provided for by that Part, (c) a comparison with the fees, charges and costs applicable to personal retirement savings accounts, other pension products and the automatic enrolment retirement savings system, and (d) the feasibility of making registration as a qualifying account provider conditional on\u2014 (i) a maximum level of total annual fees, charges and costs, or (ii) the provision of a low-cost default investment option.\u201d."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I move amendment No. 37: In page 71, between lines 20 and 21, to insert the following: \u201cFees charged by account providers 27. The Minister shall, within three months of the passing of this Act, prepare and lay before D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann a report on the fees being charged by all account providers and an analysis of the expected returns for investors.\u201d."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 27"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I move amendment No. 38: In page 72, lines 15 and 16, to delete \u201cPart 27A;\u201d and substitute \u201cPart 27A;\u201d,\u201d."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I move amendment No. 39: In page 72, to delete lines 17 to 19."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 27, as amended, agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 28"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question proposed: \"That section 28 stand part of the Bill.\""},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty The Minister might put on record the rationale behind this section, and then I will ask a question about how ETFs will be treated as a result of what is proposed."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris In line with the objectives of the funds review, this measure simplifies the tax treatment of Irish-resident investors in Irish-regulated investment funds whose units are held in a recognised clearing system. A common example of an Irish-regulated investment fund whose units are held in a recognised clearing system is an Irish-domiciled exchange-traded fund, which we know as an ETF. Previously, an Irish-resident individual investing in this type of Irish-regulated investment fund had been required to self-assess for the tax due in respect of their investment by reference to the equivalent offshore funds provisions in Chapter 4 of Part 27 of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997. This was considered to bring with it a degree of complexity for Irish-resident investors seeking to comply with their self-assessment obligations in respect of their investments. The new section introduced by this measure, section 739DA of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997, will set out the tax treatment of Irish investors in this type of Irish-regulated investment fund. The insertion of this new section means that the taxation of investors in all Irish-regulated investment funds will now be consolidated in Chapter 1A of Part 27. In substance, the amendment will generally not affect relevant taxpayers' liabilities and obligations. They will be subject to the same rate of tax in the same set of circumstances and will account for tax due under equivalent rules. This section of the Finance Bill amends sections 739B, 739G and 246A, and inserts a new section 739DA into the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997. This section also amends sections 189, 189A, 192, 205A, 205B and 205C of that Act. A number of consequential amendments to Chapter 1A of Part 27, Chapter 1 of Part 7 and section 246A of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997 are also required to give effect to this measure."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty In fairness, I raised this during the consideration of the Finance Bill last year when we talked about how people are able to invest on their phones now and how the tax system is very cumbersome. People do not understand whether they have liabilities or whether chargeable events occurred when they were on apps on their phones buying, selling or investing. These are individuals who may not be used to self-declaring or contacting Revenue in relation to this. The system is outdated because we are not going to brokers anymore to make the investments. It is very much a case of people dabbling, as the Minister said earlier, and maybe some taking it a bit more seriously. From the point of view of an individual who has an account with one of those providers and who, when they get their weekly pay cheque or whatever, decides to put \u20ac10 into an ETF or make some other investment, and who might sell something or whatever, what is the change now in practice? What do they need to worry about in terms of their taxation? Some platforms will tell people that they will take care of the taxation part, whereas on other platforms people very much have to do it themselves. There are all these rules that Revenue has about when someone sells a share. It is not the last share that they bought that is treated as sold but the share that they bought first, and so on. It is very daunting for people. Could the Minister talk us through the difference?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I thank the Deputy. I am aware that he raised this before. This is an effort to bring about some simplification of the tax treatment of Irish-resident investors in Irish-domiciled investment funds by streamlining and consolidating the applicable tax treatment in a section focused on such investments. It does not, perhaps, do all that is required to address the issues the Deputy outlined regarding what an investor needs to do. In many ways, they will still have to do those things, but what the new section does is set out clearly the tax treatment of investments in Irish-domiciled investment funds, the units of which are held in recognised clearing systems. The tax treatment is based on many of the existing concepts and rules that apply to other types of Irish-domiciled investment funds in the investment undertaking tax context. As such, the intention is for the new section to make it easier for Irish tax-resident investors to self-assess the tax due in respect of their investments. The introduction of a new section should also facilitate Revenue in preparing self-contained, standalone guidance to aid taxpayers in fulfilling their self-assessment obligations. That is really the purpose."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Does the Minister acknowledge that there is a problem here? It is not simple to navigate this world and people could be hit by a Revenue bill without even knowing they have incurred a tax liability. Although the Minister spoke about guidance, which is important, will there be changes in this area? From 1 July, we will have a system in which people will be able to invest up to \u20ac12,000 per year, although the people I am concerned about probably will not be reaching that limit anyway. It all depends on how the system is structured, on the fees and on the direction taken. People might still decide they do not want the product and that they want to be able to choose. There is a bit of an unknown in this regard. We will still have investments that are subject to significant taxes, but there are also tax liabilities that people are not aware of. Are there any changes pending in terms of the administration of the tax apart from changes to deemed disposal and the rate, which we will come to later? Our tax system is quite good, but this is archaic. It is just too difficult for people. There is a personal CGT exemption of \u20ac1,224 or something like that. Whatever it is, it is per annum and would not apply in these areas. It does not apply to investments in ETFs. Is that under consideration as well?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I must say I agree with Deputy Doherty, and I often use this as an example. I do not want to name or promote any of the providers but I do believe there are many people, probably of the younger generation, using various online platforms who are dipping in and out of investing and are perhaps not aware of the tax liability they have. That does and should concern all of us. There are a couple of aspects to this. The ability for Revenue now to produce self-contained, standalone guidance is a start. The Deputy and I recognise that this is helpful. I accept that we will have to see how all of this develops but I believe the new investment account, and how the providers decide to interact with it, may well assist in bringing this to a different space. They will want investors to be attracted to them. If the tax treatment is better and the situation is much simpler for the investor, it is hard to see how the platforms would not catch up in this space. I know they have had a lot of interest, but I accept we need to see it in action. The third point is that the retail investment roadmap, which we published, I think, in July, or over the summer months anyway, refers to doing more in this space and perhaps provides us with levers to re-examine these matters. I take the point in this regard. We will get to deemed disposal and so on later. What I would say is the investment account is not the only thing we intend to do in terms of how we reform retail investment. We can look at those broader issues as part of the retail investment roadmap we published during the summer. In terms of the annual exemption for CGT, this does not apply because taxes, income and gains roll up in the ETF, not just the gains."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Ghlac an Teachta Mair\u00e9ad Farrell an Chathaoir ar\u00eds."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell resumed the Chair."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty We will see what the individual advice from Revenue is. I raised this at last year's Finance Bill. I had a constituent who was asking my advice in relation to this year, which brought me to read Revenue's advice in relation to this year. I am not sure if the Minister has had reason to read the advice, but I could not navigate it, and I deal with finance Bills. I do not have accountancy skills or anything like that but I have had the privilege to be able to deal with financial legislation over a number of years. It is not straightforward. There are different rules, as I said, if a person sells a share, with regard to when it was applied or bought. People are clicking boxes on their phones and deciding to invest in this product or that product, without having an idea of it. They might have seen it on TikTok or whatever, some of them, and they do not know if they are in the EEA or not. They do not know if they are Irish domiciled or not. There is different advice in relation to that. There are ETFs and so forth. It is something that has been revolutionised because it is so simple, but the tax element of it remains very complex. That was fine when it was your accountant or your broker filing returns, but now people have to do it themselves. It is now the lad working in the pub who is doing this. It really needs to change. I am not talking about the rates or anything, rather that the administration of it needs to change, and quickly. I am concerned that people have a tax liability they do not know about, and that is the problem. There is no doubt about it. There are people who have tax liabilities that they do not know about. I do not know what Revenue does. Does it have all that data provided to it from the accounts? How does it pursue them? There could be somebody who has not got a lot of money and they are just doing a bit of this here and finding out that, by selling these shares, there is a chargeable event or whatever. I just make that point. In relation to section 28 itself, are there going to be any substantive differences in the way an ETF will be taxed as a result of these changes, or is it simply a simplification? I assume there is no cost involved with this measure."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Before the Minister comes in, I am going to let an Teachta Timmins in as well."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Edward Timmins Regarding subsection (8)(a)(i) and (ii) and (8)(b), I am interested in the in the rates. A corporation pays 25%. In other cases, a relevant fund holder is chargeable at 35%. The legislation then goes on to discuss a personal portfolio investment undertaken at 60%. I am wondering why there is such a large tax on a personal portfolio vis-\u00e0-vis section 8(a)(ii), which is 35%."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris As to Deputy Doherty\u2019s question, this is not about tax changes, nor is there a cost. There should not be. ETFs are a different matter, but this is not that. It is a simplification measure. The stand-alone guidance from Revenue will be a welcome and important step, but I agree with the Deputy and I share his view on this issue. There is a whole generation \u2013 I am sure it is not specific to one generation, but there is a particular younger generation - that is more familiar with technology and online providers, and this is a new area they have been brought into. I commit to pursuing this further under the retail investment roadmap. I am happy to engage further on this. It is an important issue. We have an obligation to do better in terms of making sure we do not have citizens who are unaware that they accidentally have some sort of tax liability, and maybe the literacy piece is a part of that as well. As to Deputy Timmins question, the personal portfolio investment undertaking as defined in section 739BA is a fund, either domestic or offshore, where a selection of the property of the fund was or can be influenced by an individual who is the investor, in other words, the investor or certain connected persons who place personal investments within a fund. These investment undertakings were created to gain access to a gross roll-up regime which allows the income and gains to roll up within a fund without suffering tax, so the higher rate of the 60% tax continues to apply to a gain arising on a chargeable event with respect to a personal portfolio investment undertaking."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Edward Timmins It just seems a bit high, but anyway."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris It is largely anti-avoidance to discourage certain activity."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Are there any other questions on this section? No."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Section 29 is next and I am anticipating questions. We agreed there has to be a hard stop for 6 p.m. and we are now at four minutes to 6 p.m. I am of the view that it would be easier to start that fresh on Wednesday rather than talking for two to four minutes and then stopping. Is that okay? If I adjourn at this point, are there any hard objections to me doing it? Okay. We will now adjourn and we will meet again at 10 a.m. next Wednesday in committee room 3. Go raibh maith agaibh."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an roghchoiste ar athl\u00f3 ar 5.56 p.m. go dt\u00ed 10 a.m. D\u00e9 C\u00e9adaoin, an 11 Samhain 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The select committee adjourned at 5.56 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Wednesday, 11 November 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Finance (No. 2) Bill 2026: Committee Stage (Resumed)"}]}}]},"contextDate":"2026-11-05"},{"debateRecord":{"house":{"showAs":"COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS","committeeCode":"committee_of_public_accounts","houseCode":"dail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/committee\/dail\/34\/committee_of_public_accounts","chamberType":"committee","houseNo":"34"},"chamber":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/def\/committee","showAs":"COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS"},"lastUpdated":"2026-11-11T03:10:48+00:00","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/committee_of_public_accounts\/2026-11-05\/debate\/main","formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/committee_of_public_accounts\/2026-11-05\/debate\/mul@\/main.xml"},"pdf":null},"date":"2026-11-05","counts":{"contributorCount":9,"divisionCount":0,"debateSectionCount":2,"questionCount":0,"billCount":0},"debateType":"debate","debateSections":[{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/committee_of_public_accounts\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_2","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Gn\u00f3 an Choiste - Business of Committee","counts":{"speechCount":34,"speakerCount":8},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I welcome everyone to today's meeting. Apologies have been received from Deputy Geoghegan. Before we proceed, I will go through a few housekeeping matters. Members are reminded of the provisions within Standing Order 226 that the committee shall refrain from enquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government, a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I also remind members of the constitutional requirements that in order to participate in public meetings members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex or precincts. The agenda for today's public session is as follows: minutes, correspondence and upcoming meetings. We will then suspend and begin the engagement with officials from the Department of Education and Youth at 10.30 a.m. The minutes of the meetings of 15 and 22 October 2026 have been agreed and will be published on the committee's webpage. No sets of accounts and financial statements have been laid since our previous meeting. I am informed that this is due to an issue with the IT system within the Oireachtas that has been going on for the past two weeks, which is particularly unfortunate. My understanding is that there is no resolution in sight. That is tying the hands of the office of the C and AG and, in turn, tying the hands of this committee with regard to its ability to see what accounts have been presented. I propose we write to the Houses of the Oireachtas Service to get further information on this issue that is affecting this critical piece of work, to get a briefing note on what exactly is going on and, more importantly, when this issue will be resolved. Is that agreed? Agreed. We will move to correspondence. There are a number of B items of correspondence to consider today. These have been received from Departments and public bodies. No. R2026\/0530 is correspondence, dated 16 October 2026, from the Secretary General at the Department of Culture, Communications and Sport, regarding the cell broadcast public warning system. Is it agreed to note and publish this item? Agreed. No. R2026\/0532 is correspondence, dated 16 October 2026, received from the Secretary General at the Department of Education and Youth, regarding the planning and building unit overview 2026. I have flagged this for discussion. There is a lot of critical information missing from this overview. Indeed, members cited a number of individual school buildings projects caught at different stages of development within their constituencies. It does not touch on any of those or what process is used to determine what school project should proceed, or any of those details. There are also follow-up questions. When we had the Department in previously, we were told that a condition audit being carried out on the school stock was ongoing. I propose we write to get an update on that critical and long-overdue piece of work to see where it is at and ask that we be furnished with the findings and full report. Is that agreed? Agreed. Is it agreed to note and publish the item? Agreed. No. R2026\/0533 is correspondence, dated 16 October 2026, received from the National Treasury Management Agency, NTMA, providing additional information including information on selected Ireland Strategic Investment Fund investments and the operation of prize bonds by the funding and debt management unit within the NTMA. That has been flagged by Deputy Murphy and me. I am happy to move on. Is it agreed to note and publish this item? Agreed. No. R2026\/0534 is correspondence received from RT\u00c9 regarding League of Ireland negotiations. Is it agreed to note and publish the item subject to the redaction of any personal information? Agreed. No. R2026\/0535 is correspondence, dated 19 October 2026, received from the Chairperson of the Office of Public Works providing an update on the redevelopment of the National Museum of Ireland and the National Museum. Deputy McAuliffe has flagged this item. Does he wish to speak to it?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul McAuliffe In private session, I suggested we write to the National Museum to ask for a more detailed breakdown of the overall more-than \u20ac3 million figure, but in particular the \u20ac1.3 million for investigative works and upfront design costs."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I agree. The correspondence does not get into specific information. There were issues previously with a stairwell within the premises, which is a fairly old premises. It has been said that additional work is needed. I am concerned that the museum has been closed since 2024. On the current expected timeframe, it is going to remain closed for up to ten years. We do not have an overall final cost. A sum of \u20ac3.6 million has been spent on the enabling and storage costs. This is an issue. I have concerns given the OPW is overseeing this and there is a potential for overspend and runaway costs. We need further sight of the expenditure to date and a more comprehensive breakdown as to the timeline. Having such an important museum closed until the early 2030s is quite concerning, while acknowledging that it does need work. We need a comprehensive breakdown. Is it agreed to note and publish this item, and write asking for further information? Agreed. No. R2026\/0536 is correspondence, dated 19 October 2026, received from the CEO of the National Transport Authority regarding the next generation ticketing project. I flagged this item for discussion. It goes into some detail on the identified resource constraints with regard to bringing forward this critical piece of work, namely, the next generation ticketing. However, it does not get into the specifics as to what the resource constraints are. They say they have been addressed but it is important we get an understanding as to what those constraints were. The correspondence states it will have no impact on the overall timeframe for the implementation or progression of this project, but we need more clarity on that. We also need more clarity on what the resolution is. Does it involves more outside bodies or consultants? We know how that ended up with the train management system, where there was an over-reliance on external additional resources. We know about the catastrophic failures to which that led. We need a clearer line of sight as to what additional resources have been put in. Are they in-house? Are they external? We need an overall comprehensive breakdown on that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Grace Boland The end of the letter states that if any further details or clarifications are required to let the CEO know. We need to remind her we want a quarterly report on this. We should also tell the NTA that if this overall project status moves from green to amber or red, they should immediately notify us and give us details as to why the RAG status of the project has moved."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Is it agreed to follow that course of action? Is it agreed to note and publish the item? Agreed. No. R2026\/0538 is correspondence, dated 20 October 2026, received from the Secretary General at the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration regarding further details and ongoing legal proceedings relating to IPAS accommodation contracts. I have flagged this item for discussion. It is an issue we have touched on previously with regard to the pre-contract agreements and the litigation cases that had been taken by a number of parties. I think three of those have been concluded. We have not been given any specific figures. We know from the C and AG's report that there is a figure including these settlements and other issues totalling about \u20ac30 million. The Department points out that the overall value of these contracts was in the region of \u20ac100 million meaning, in essence, that was a saving for the State. However, again, this highlights serious failures that allowed pre-contract agreements to be put in place that exposed the taxpayer. We know there are still two more cases that are being discussed. Quite worryingly, there is another case now being taken by a prospective provider that has been initiated by them. That is quite concerning if it is a test case because we know there are many other providers there that did not have pre-contract agreements or arrangements in place. It is quite concerning that the taxpayer has been exposed to such high levels of financial litigation. We need to follow up on this and get further information. I also question the rationale for not giving the committee a full breakdown of the awards that have been made. We have a rough idea of the value of those. Suffice it to say, there are two other cases there. We need further information. Is it agreed to write back to get further information and to note and publish this item? Agreed. No. R2026\/0539 is correspondence, dated 20 October 2026, received from the chief executive, NTMA, regarding NewERA's ongoing engagement with RT\u00c9. Is it agreed to note and publish? Agreed. No. R2026\/0540 is correspondence received from Maynooth University, regarding the president's accommodation at Maynooth University, dated 19 October 2026. We had a general discussion around this correspondence from Maynooth University. They have asked that the item would be subject to redactions. That is being questioned by members of the committee. It has been agreed that we write back to Maynooth University because there is a strong view held by committee members is that there is no sensitive or private information contained in that correspondence that would preclude it from being published. Unless any other members have any questions or points to raise, is it agreed that we write back to Maynooth University? Agreed. No. R2026\/0541 is correspondence received from the Secretary General at the Department of Culture, Communications and Sport, which is a response to requests for further information regarding the sports capital and related funding awarded to Longford Town Football Club and the Football Association of Ireland, dated 22 October 2026. Is it agreed to note and publish the item? Agreed. No. R2026\/0542 is correspondence received, dated 19 October 2026, from the chief executive officer at the Private Security Authority providing further information on the discovery in 2025 of fraudulent documentation in individual licence applications made to the authority. This has been flagged by Deputy Murphy. Does Deputy Bennet want to speak on that or we can defer it until next week?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett If we can defer it, then that is fine."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach We will defer this until next week when Deputy Murphy is here. R2026\/0543 is correspondence received from the CEO of the Mater Hospital regarding the hospital and private health insurers, dated 19 October 2026. That was flagged by me. This follows on from a line of questioning we had. It is also relevant to other correspondence we received from Children's Health Ireland, CHI. I may come back to it when we are dealing with the CHI correspondence because it gives us information with regard to a company that has been engaged to try get the some of the money back. The correspondence from the Mater Hospital states that this contract only started in March of this year, I believe. CHI get into more comprehensive information with regard to it so I will come back to that. Is it agreed to note and publish this item? Agreed. No. R2026\/0544 is correspondence dated 23 October received from the CEO of Bord Bia regarding non-compliant procurement. Is it agreed to note and publish this item? Agreed. No. R2026\/0545 is correspondence dated 23 October 2026, received from the CEO of Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann in response to the committee's request for further information. This has been flagged by me. I note that the 13-week termination process of the contract with Indra has now expired. Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann is saying it will not give us any further information at this point. Again, it is quite concerning that this appears to be heading down the legal route. It is something that we have to keep on top of. There is certainly more information that we need, particularly with regard to the train management system that was due to be put in place for the Cork line. The timeframe will not be met and in line with what was supposed to be in place by July next year. There will be financial considerations and penalties. The Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann CEO does not get into those issues. We need to write back and get further information. She says they are looking at the issue and they hope to have something in place but I do not think it is going to be in place until 2028, which is what she is saying in that. It is quite concerning and we need further information as to what are the potential fines and financial considerations. We need to get sight of that. Do any other members want to comment?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Grace Boland Irish Rail officials appeared before the transport committee recently. It transpired that they have also investigated the Indra issue internally and a third party is conducting a report on behalf of Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann as well as the NTA, which has instructed a third party. It is important that this committee sees that report. It is very important that any such reports are shared generally in terms of lessons learned. I just wanted my colleagues to know about that report."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach There is one other issue I wanted to touch on . It has been indicated that a direct contract is going to be awarded to Siemens to bring forward a train management system. As a committee, we need to get further information on the cost of that contract, if it has been awarded, or what stage it is at. This will potentially be further costs on top of the \u20ac50 million that has been written off. We need a full line of sight on that. Is it agreed to note and publish this item of correspondence? Agreed. No. R2026\/0546 is correspondence dated 20 October 2026 received from the chief executive officer at CHI regarding private health insurers. Again, this has been flagged by me for discussion. I touched on the issue relating to correspondence from the Mater Hospital. CHI actually gets into more specific detail with regard to agencies that have been contracted to chase down some of the outstanding money from the private health insurers. Similar to the Mater, it has engaged with Dunraven Health Services, which provides assistance in the clinical appeal of unpaid health insurance claims referred by CHI. The CEO states that Dunraven Health Services charge 24% of whatever they take in, exclusive of VAT, which is a value of the incremental success reclaim. She gives a breakdown over 2024 and 2025. In 2024, CHI got \u20ac133,626, VAT inclusive. In 2025, it was \u20ac129,733. The Mater Hospital says that the contract was only awarded in March of this year and no invoices have been served yet. It is quite concerning that almost one quarter, or 24%, of the money that should be forthcoming, in this case to CHI, is going to a private entity for collecting the money that we should be getting. Again, the private sector is benefiting by chasing down money the private sector should be paying to the State. We need to get further clarity and more information on this right across the board. We have information with regard to the Mater Hospital but we need to get a complete overview of the health service, for all hospitals, on how much money is being paid to Dunraven Health Services, if it has been contracted for all hospitals across the State and if this is a general HSE contract. We need to follow up on this and it is of concern to the State at the very least. Do members wish to comment? No. Is it agreed to note and publish this item? Agreed. R2026\/0548 is correspondence received from the president of the University of Limerick regarding UL Student Life and the university's property at Honan's Quay dated 19 October 2026. That has been flagged by myself in respect of the issue of the Dunnes Stores site, on which members of the previous committee had extensive engagement with UL. It is explicitly stated here that in respect of the site they paid \u20ac8 million for, with no proper valuation or due diligence being carried out, there is no intention of doing anything with that site, which largely remains vacant. It is quite concerning that an asset of such value is just lying there in the centre of Limerick. It calls into question the rationale for purchasing this site back in 2019. I had proposed previously that the committee consider bringing in UL. In the first instance, we need to write back and get more specific information with regard to the property on Honan's Quay, the former Dunnes Stores site, and we should ultimately look at bringing UL back in again. Is it agreed to note and publish the item with the suggested redactions with regard to student life? Agreed. No. 0549 is correspondence received from the Secretary General at the Department of further education regarding the My SUSI ICT project; Aruba Erasmus and trip; higher education funding; and Carlow College, dated 27 October 2026. This has been flagged by Deputy Paul Murphy and myself. I am happy to defer it until next week in Deputy Murphy's absence. No. 0550 is correspondence received from RT\u00c9 regarding the agreement between the Department of Culture, Communications and Sport and RT\u00c9 Radio on the implementation of its reform strategy, dated 28 October 2026. That has been flagged by myself. Does Deputy Bennett wish to speak on it?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett I found this letter quite interesting. There are lots of key achievements and deliverables within the document. I am wondering if it is all fact or fiction. Has the Department of public expenditure or anybody investigated that anything happens? How do we know the reality? Does the Department of public expenditure conduct any stewardship in relation to the public finances that are being given here? With everything I have been hearing about RT\u00c9 - yesterday we heard about Ger Gilroy, who was headhunted and given a salary of \u20ac191,000 and a wardrobe allowance of \u20ac5,000. Within RT\u00c9, does the Department of public expenditure or any Department go in and investigate? This is just an email. I would like to know if all the deliverables and key achievements are actually happening that are noted within the document. Do we just take that at face value? The Comptroller and Auditor General might shed some light on this."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Seamus McCarthy I would say that it is probably for the Department of media in the first instance to question and follow up with RT\u00c9 in relation to that. There is also the role of NewERA which will be looking at the finances of RT\u00c9. I am limited in what I can say about RT\u00c9 until I become the auditor."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett Why has that not happened yet? I thought it was in line to happen."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach The legislation still needs to be----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett It is still not enacted. Does the Comptroller and Auditor General believe that the Department of public expenditure or any other Department goes in to investigate what the key achievements and deliveries are here?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Seamus McCarthy No, I would not expect the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation to be down at that level of detail. Obviously the Department of communications would have a role."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett Would they actually go onsite?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Seamus McCarthy No, I would not expect them to be going onsite."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett Is it just an email, then?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Seamus McCarthy I think they would be looking for assurance. I would imagine that NewERA would be looking into the detail, but not necessarily into the detail of an individual employee's contract."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Aidan Farrelly That correspondence also includes the letter from the former Minister to the most senior level of management in RT\u00c9, which was a question many of us had after the 2027 budget allocation, reported to be \u20ac20 million less than what had been committed to. The letter shows very clearly, in black and white, that the former Minister had made that level of commitment via TV licence receipts and Exchequer funding. The question that naturally follows is how it is possible for a Department to renege on a level of funding already committed to, without anything being stated in that letter with regard to performance, outputs, outcomes or anything. It is a very clear black-and-white statement that this is what RT\u00c9 would be provided with in 2025, 2026 and 2027, with no performance targets attached other than to continue to implement the strategic plan. A further query to the Department on the timeline of how that decision was made would be helpful. It is very clear that we want RT\u00c9 to be able to plan in a multi-annual way. The confidence is probably shattered from that. Any further commitments now will be undermined by the fact that this one was withdrawn or certainly not adhered to. How can the Department renege on its own commitment? In the letter, it did not ask for any sort of performance-related achievements. There are questions to be asked about that in itself. Who was responsible for that and how? Ultimately, what is the outcome? Are we back to \u20ac260 million a year for 2027? Can that be confirmed? As TV licence receipts continue to fall, what is the next iteration of that two to three-year plan looking like for RT\u00c9?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Just to note we will have RT\u00c9 and the Department in with us in a number of weeks, and members will have an opportunity to question all of that. I have similar concerns. It is apparent that there was no formal agreement linking the funding of \u20ac725 million over three years to any of the reforms within RT\u00c9. That is quite concerning. The only thing we have here is an email from the former Minister. Ultimately, it has led to the bizarre chain of events following on from budget 2027, when \u20ac20 million was going to be withheld and then quickly in the days afterwards it was quite clear that the money was going to be paid. It is unfortunate and has caused huge issues, not just in terms of the public view of RT\u00c9 but also within the organisation itself. It is tying up the work of this committee. The enabling legislation is on Report Stage. The sooner that comes into effect the better, to ensure that the Comptroller and Auditor General can get under the bonnet of the finances within RT\u00c9."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett On the legislation that is coming in, will it be enacted for all semi-State bodies?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach No, it is just RT\u00c9."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett Why would it not be right across the board when all these organisations are getting huge amounts of Government funding?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Seamus McCarthy It is essentially a broadcasting (amendment) Bill. It will affect RT\u00c9 and will actually also affect TG4, which should not be overlooked. There are other significant elements to that legislation apart from me being made the auditor of RT\u00c9."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath RT\u00c9 is not subject to the Committee of Public Accounts at present but it has been co-operating any time we have written to it. I think that is correct to say. Based on the session yesterday, there are certainly some unanswered questions around staffing arrangements and so on. The Ger Gilroy issue has been well aired. If they are due to come in to us in the coming weeks, it might be appropriate for us to look for additional information in advance in respect of that appointment, asking for the process that was followed to be set out very clearly. There are serious question marks about the staff reduction programme. I think 68 members of staff took the first voluntary scheme. There were a further 30 positions suppressed, I think, but as we know, RT\u00c9 needs to achieve just over 300 reductions over the coming years, which will prove very difficult. The key question that needs to be asked in light of the Ger Gilroy issue is how many other positions were recruited for over the last 12 months, say, within RT\u00c9. This one has been in the public domain but are there other examples of people recruited from outside RT\u00c9? That is a key question that needs to be asked."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Aidan Farrelly Apologies, Chair. I am not trying to come in twice. I looked at the transcript of the last conversation between RT\u00c9 and us specifically about recruitment. The way in which those questions were answered spoke so heavily about transparent expressions of interest and on some of the main recruitment that was not stuck to at all. That transcript was really interesting because it is at complete odds with what has come out in the last couple of days. If that is the way organisations are approaching their appearances here, I would be concerned."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Okay."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joe Neville Yes. I think I had a direct line of questioning in the transcript regarding how RT\u00c9 does appointments, so it would be interesting. Deputy Farrelly obviously knows. He matched one against the other."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach We will have RT\u00c9 in and if there are questions members want to flag in advance with its officials to get information that will help the meeting run more smoothly and answer some questions in advance, members should send them to the clerk and we will ensure they are sent over. Is it agreed to note and publish this item with redactions of personal details? Agreed. No. 0551, dated 28 October 2026, is correspondence received from the chairperson of the OPW regarding its event infrastructure framework. Is it agreed to note and publish this item? Agreed. That concludes the B items for this meeting. Next week the committee will examine the financial statements for 2025 of Greyhound Racing Ireland. We will also have officials here from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, who will attend in a representative capacity. Are there items members wish to raise under any other business?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett Two weeks ago at this committee, I asked about the committee that reviewed the posts with Uisce \u00c9ireann leading to the CEO getting a huge increase in his salary. We still have not received any correspondence on that senior post remuneration committee. I would like to write to it again. I asked at the time who is on the committee but I would also like to ask additional questions of all the organisations under its remit and if everybody got increases. The document is available for everybody to look at online. It sets out all the organisations the committee was assessing at the time. I would be interested to see whether all those organisations' CEOs received increases in their remuneration. I am sure most of them did because if one got it, I am sure they all got it. Within that we have Coillte, Horse Racing Ireland, the National Stud, EirGrid, the ESB, the Land Development Agency, RT\u00c9 and DAA. A lot of different organisations were in that review and I would like to know how much the CEOs of each of those organisations got on foot of that review document. I would like the committee to write again to ask when that letter will be received. I highlight again Niall Gleeson's huge salary, to which he received an increase of \u20ac118,000. I saw today the Environmental Protection Agency has released its statistics for the year. As I said at the time, Niall Gleeson is supposed to be doing an amazing job but here we are again with the EPA saying raw sewage has been discharged every day in 11 counties and villages around the country. Some 55% of wastewater treatment plants discharged wastewater that failed to meet the standards aimed at preventing pollution and protecting our environment. Wastewater in 13 towns and cities failed to meet EU standards. What does that say about Uisce \u00c9ireann, the work it is doing and its performance? I would like us to write to Uisce \u00c9ireann again and to Niall Gleeson to ask him why this is happening on this watch."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Okay."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath I agree with that. On the children's hospital, we are due to get periodic updates. I had a quick word with the clerk earlier. I do not think we have an update to hand at present. I ask that we seek that update because the completion date of the hospital is becoming less clear by the day. It is appropriate that we specifically ask for a full written update from the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board and Children's Health Ireland on the hospital. We could agree to do that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Yes. I have a couple of items of my own. To follow up on Uisce \u00c9ireann, the report from the Environmental Protection Agency is quite concerning. You can put that side by side with the bonuses not just for Niall Gleeson, who got an extraordinarily massive pay hike, but also the fact that 95% of the staff in Uisce \u00c9ireann received bonuses despite having received a damning report from the EPA. It is an issue we are going to follow up on with Uisce \u00c9ireann. I certainly have specific questions about the different scales of bonuses paid to all staff within the organisation. They seem to be tiered such that the higher you are within the organisation, the higher percentage bonus you get. It is obviously linked to salary but we need additional information. It is concerning that there could be such a damning report as this and, at the same time, 95% of the staff within the organisation received bonuses. I have a couple of other issues. I saw a report relating to the Mayo, Sligo and Leitrim Education and Training Board. Serious theft and fraud offences have been carried out within the organisation going back over a number of years. I propose that we write to the ETB to get further information on those offences. The other issue I wish to raise is that public e-bikes, to the value of \u20ac1 million, are being taken off the road only a number of months after they were first put out. It is being suggested they are going to be put into storage by the NTA. We know the situation with the NTA and electric buses in storage, and the huge ongoing costs of that. We need further information on the e-bikes worth \u20ac1 million. Are they being put in the same storage as the electric buses? This beggars belief. I cannot fathom e-bikes worth \u20ac1 million being taken off the road and put into storage just months after they were put on the road. It is extraordinary and again raises serious concerns about forward planning within the NTA. I propose that we write to the authority to get a full explanation because, again, there is a serious concern regarding waste in the organisation and a failure to plan properly. Unless there are other matters members wish to raise under any other business, we will suspend the sitting."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an su\u00ed ar fionra\u00ed ar 10.59 a.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 11.02 a.m."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sitting suspended at 10.59 a.m. and resumed at 11.02 a.m."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Gn\u00f3 an Choiste - Business of Committee"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/committee_of_public_accounts\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_3","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"School Transport and Special Education: Discussion","counts":{"speechCount":604,"speakerCount":10},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Ms Bernie McNally (Secretary General, Department of Children and Youth) called and examined."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach This morning we will engage with the Department of Education and Youth. The agenda of the meeting is to discuss the provision of school transport and special education. On behalf of the committee, from the Department of Education and Youth, I welcome Ms Bernie McNally, the Secretary General, Mr. Hubert Loftus, Ms Martina Manion, Mr. DaltonTatton and Mr. Martin Clohessy, who are assistant secretaries general and Ms Barbara Mulhall, principal officer. We are also joined by officials from Bus \u00c9ireann, Ms Jean O\u2019Sullivan, chief executive officer, Ms Miriam Flynn, chief school officer, and Mr. Tom Delaney, chief financial officer. Mr. Eamonn Murtagh, assistant secretary general from the Department of Transport is also attending in a representative capacity. We are joined by officials from the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General including Mr. Seamus McCarthy, Comptroller and Auditor General, who is a permanent witness to the Committee, and Mr. Shane Carton, deputy director of audit. They are all very welcome. Before we begin, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references you may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege, and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. Witnesses are also reminded of the longstanding parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity, by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. I will now call on the Comptroller and Auditor General to deliver his opening statement."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Seamus McCarthy The Department of Education and Youth funds the provision of transport services to and from primary and post-primary schools for children who live beyond a set distance from the nearest school that is suitable to their needs. The Department also funds the provision of school transport for children with special educational needs and for children from Ukraine or living in international protection accommodation centres. Bus \u00c9ireann manages the delivery of school transport services on behalf of the Department. The related functions undertaken by the company include planning and scheduling of transport routes, subcontracting private operators, vetting drivers and monitoring contractor performance. The cost to the Department of providing school transport services for around 181,000 pupils in 2025 was \u20ac479 million. This was down from \u20ac512 million spent in 2024. The original school transport subhead provision in the Vote 26 estimate for 2025 was \u20ac383 million. The outturn of \u20ac479 million was 25% more than provided. The explanation for the overrun presented in the appropriation account was underfunding in the estimate relative to what was required to meet the demand for school transport under established access policies. The unit cost of providing transport for over 24,000 pupils with special education needs was significantly higher than for mainstream services, due to the need for bespoke and sometimes individual transport arrangements. The number of children within the schooling system with special educational needs has risen substantially over recent years. For the 2025-26 school year, over 30,500 students with more complex needs are enrolled in special schools, or in special classes within mainstream schools, an increase of around 70% since 2020. Meeting the increased demand for special education services has necessitated opening new special schools, growing the number of special classes in mainstream schools, and increasing the numbers of special education teachers and special needs assistants. Subhead A.6 provides for payments of salaries, wages and allowances of special needs assistants in primary and post-primary schools. The estimate provision for 2025 was \u20ac915 million. The outturn was \u20ac1,051 million which was an overrun of 14.9%. The appropriation account explains that funding provision of \u20ac46 million intended for additional special needs assistants had incorrectly been allocated to other payroll subheads. A further \u20ac90 million of the overrun was attributed to funding underprovision. Other costs associated with special education provision are currently spread throughout the Department\u2019s Vote. There are plans to change the layout of Vote 26 in the future to allow for greater visibility of capital and current expenditure on special education. A comparable issue of lack of transparency around funding for education and training boards was dealt with by inclusion in the annual appropriation account of an appendix listing such expenditure by subhead. A similar approach for special needs expenditure in the 2026 appropriation account could be a useful interim step pending reform of the Vote."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I thank the Comptroller and Auditor General. I will now ask the Secretary General to deliver the opening statement on behalf of the Department of Education and Youth. As set out in the letter of invitation, Ms McNally has five minutes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally I thank the committee for the invitation to attend here today to discuss school transport and special education. I am joined by a number of colleagues at assistant secretary level who the Chair has introduced already and Barbara Mulhall, principal officer in the school transport unit. The Chair has also welcomed colleagues from the Department of Transport and Bus \u00c9ireann. I hope the briefing we provided in advance has been of assistance. The Department is responsible for funding and setting the rules for the provision of a school transport scheme for eligible students. Bus \u00c9ireann manages the operation of that scheme on our behalf. The Department's expenditure on school transport in 2025 was \u20ac479 million, which included a supplementary provision of \u20ac96 million. The supplementary budget was required to meet the demand forecast by the Department. The allocation for 2026 is \u20ac641 million, and the Department is on profile to live within that budget. Budget 2027 contains an allocation of \u20ac687 million. The Department is satisfied that the structural deficit that existed in recent years has been addressed. We will continue to work closely with the Department of public expenditure and reform to monitor the scheme's budget and performance. Reduced fares were introduced as a temporary cost-of-living measure in recent years. As part of budget 2027, the Minister announced on 7 October that for the 2027-28 school year, ticket charges will be restored to 2021-22 levels. The cost of school transport is heavily subsidised by the State. With the restored ticket prices, 93% and 75% of the cost of the primary and post-primary school services, respectively, will continue to be met by the Exchequer. Very importantly, almost 46,000 children, over 25%, will access the service free of charge in 2027 due to having a significant special educational need or being in receipt of a medical card. Committee members are very familiar with the 3.2 km and 4.8 km distance rules and the fact that students must attend their nearest school by language or ethos to be eligible. The rules are also clear that only after all eligible pupils are accommodated can non-eligible children be considered. Where services are not available, remote area grants are offered to eligible pupils. Over 181,000 children, including 24,400 children with special educational needs, availed of the service in the last school year. Since 2020, there has been an increase of 58% in the number of students travelling on the scheme. While successful for the vast majority of families eligible for it, the scheme faces significant challenges. These include the following. There are many non-eligible students and families wishing to avail of the service. A one-seat, one-ticket safety rule restricts the number of tickets issued. Under-utilisation of the service is a feature as many ticket holders do not use it on a full-time basis. Reliable and timely utilisation data is not currently available to support a policy change to this rule. There are substantial inflationary cost pressures, and we have experienced challenges in sourcing contractors and drivers. Full roll-out of the school transport review to enable a significant increase in the numbers of children accessing the service will rely on integration with public service transport. Technology improvements and other logistical, timing and funding challenges will have to be resolved. We are working intensively with stakeholders to build and safeguard services into the future, and implementation of the school transport review recommendations are well under way. I turn now to special education and, more particularly, inclusive education, which is at the core of the Department's mission. Our education system is underpinned by a much-valued and committed workforce of teachers and special needs assistants, SNAs. In the 2027-28 school year, there will be approximately 52,000 special education teachers and SNAs ring-fenced in our schools to support children with special educational needs. Budget 2027 provides the largest ever funding allocation to special education of \u20ac3.8 billion. This will fund an additional 1,353 special education teachers in mainstream and specialist settings, bringing the total number of special education teachers to 24,000, the highest ever allocation, representing a 35% increase since 2020. Over 21,000 of these teachers will work in mainstream schools, ensuring that support is provided in the most inclusive setting possible. Funding for 2,339 additional SNAs was also provided for September 2027, increasing the total number of SNAs to over 28,000, an increase of 65% since 2020. Additionally, budget 2027 provided for extra professional learning and training, essential to ensure that staff can support the complex needs of children in our school system. This year, the Department and the National Council for Special Education worked closely with all education stakeholders to deliver 587 new special classes, bringing the total to over 4,300, double what we had five years ago. Four new special schools are also being established in 2026. The Department is committed to continuing to develop more inclusive practice and to be inspired by the leadership of school communities all across the country. The introduction of 70 inclusive special classes this year demonstrates this commitment. Work to plan for the provision of special education places for the 2027-28 school year and beyond is well advanced. I thank the Chairman and the committee again for the opportunity to attend here. I look forward, with my colleagues, to answering members' questions."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I thank Ms McNally. I now ask the chief executive officer to deliver the opening statement on behalf of Bus \u00c9ireann. As set out in the letter of invitation, Ms O'Sullivan has five minutes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Jean O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Jean O'Sullivan I thank the Cathaoirleach and the members of the committee. I will not repeat a lot of what the Department has said because some of our opening statement is similar. We welcome the opportunity to discuss school transport today and, particularly, the opportunity to outline the scale and governance arrangements supporting the scheme and, most importantly, to look ahead as to how we develop the scheme in partnership with the Department of Education and Youth. As Ireland's national bus company, Bus \u00c9ireann operates the most extensive public transport network in the country, serving communities in every region. For over 57 years, we have operated the school transport scheme on behalf of the Department of Education and Youth, working in close partnership with the Department in support of its policy objectives and the provision of this really important national service. The scale of school transport, as the Department has outlined, has been significant in recent years, particularly since 2020. The growth represents a significant and complex operational undertaking and highlights the need for enhanced supports around vetting, safety, effective planning and, most importantly, to ensure that the market has the readiness to be able to support the future growth. It will also require continuous investment in technology, fleet and new ways of working as well as introduction, potentially, of different administration opportunities, particularly around AI. Our relationship is supported very much by well-established governance and accountability arrangements, including a clearly defined service level agreement, regular operational meetings to review performance and quarterly strategic meetings to consider longer term priorities and developments. Bus \u00c9ireann directly operates 6% of the mainstream routes. In 2025 we worked with 1,448 contractors, which helped us deliver 11,241 routes. That is a significant undertaking in the number of routes we deliver daily. As part of that, we thank the contractors that support us. They are really the backbone of the delivery of school transport across the country. We really welcome their support and we engage with them regularly in order to be able to make sure that we can progress the system and support them in their delivery. We also support families through the application process and handle 42,000 calls and an additional 21,000 web chats from families availing of the scheme every year. It is also important to note that we engage in structured planning, funding and forecasting processes. We provide the Department with an annual funding requirement in advance of the following year. Updated forecasts are also presented to our audit and risk committee and the Bus \u00c9ireann board. Bus \u00c9ireann's statutory accounts and year-end financial reporting are independently audited, as are the accounting arrangements specific to the school transport scheme. Our procurement processes operate in accordance with the utilities directive and applicable procurement legislation, with tenders assessed against robust qualitative and financial criteria. This is essential as the scheme has grown now to the number of contractors we procure annually. These arrangements provide a strong framework for transparency, financial oversight and accountability as well as an important foundation on which we can continue to develop the governance and administration of the scheme. Looking ahead, we fully support the ambition of the school transport 2030 review, which was published in 2024, to expand school transport provision, to streamline application processes and to progress more integrated transport solutions, in partnership with the National Transport Authority, in a safe and reliable manner. We believe that this is a significant opportunity to build on the experience, expertise and infrastructure that currently exist within Ireland's transport assets. We recognise that meeting future demand and expectations will require proactive planning, innovation and transformation, and we are delighted to be working in partnership with the Department of Education and Youth to progress those areas. Sustainability is also a central part of our future development. Bus \u00c9ireann is committed to advocating for and supporting more sustainable school transport, including transition towards lower emission and zero-emission vehicles, contributing to the Government's wider climate action ambitions. We believe that by combining the Department's policy direction and oversight with Bus \u00c9ireann's operational experience and delivery capability, we can work together to enhance the numbers accessing the school transport scheme to meet the needs of future generations and the growing population. I would like to acknowledge the continued partnership with the Department of Education and Youth, along with our schools, the Department of Transport, the National Transport Authority, NTA, our private contractors and operators, including our own Bus \u00c9ireann employees and the many elected representatives who engage with the scheme on a daily basis. I also recognise the students and families for whom we provide transport - up to 181,000 pupils a day. We look forward to any questions that might be presented by members."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I thank Ms O'Sullivan. We will suspend our meeting at about 12.30 p.m. for a 15-minute break and then we will resume shortly afterwards. The lead speaker today is Deputy Daly, who has 15 minutes. All other members have ten minutes. If time permits, on the conclusion of that we will allow members back in for a short round of supplementary questions. I note that our timers are down so I will indicate when members have one minute left to give people advance warning."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Martin Daly I thank all the witnesses for coming here today. I recognise the massive logistical operation it is to get 181,000 children and young people, including those with special and additional needs, to education. When we see that the State is investing 92% of the cost of getting young people to national school and 75% of the cost of getting people to second level, the figures are very considerable. They have grown from \u20ac220 million in 2020 to \u20ac512 million in 2024 and an estimated \u20ac640 million this year. These are significant sums of money. There are a lot of moving parts. The State has a right to know that the investment is being managed properly and that it is fit for purpose and carrying out the required function of getting young people to school, reducing the number of car journeys and ensuring that children with special and additional needs have access to mainstream and special education. I am not an accountant, but one of the things that caught my eye here is that expenditure from 2020 until 2026 shows a huge variance in excess expenditure over projected expenditure in each of those years. There was a \u20ac96 million overspend in 2025, a \u20ac131 million overspend in 2024, a \u20ac99 million overspend in 2023 and a \u20ac69 million overspend in 2022. These are very significant overspends. I cannot really find an explanation for that type of variance."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally I thank the Deputy for the question and for acknowledging the volume and complexity of the scheme. We are very clear that this is a demand-led scheme. None of the Deputies will have heard us say there are only enough places for 160,000 children and then there will be no more after that. It is a demand-led scheme and with that comes variation year on year. Each time in the Estimates we estimate the need for the next year and we negotiate with the Department of public expenditure and reform. Sometimes the Department of public expenditure and reform has questions as regards whether those numbers will truly materialise. On occasion, it may have said it is going to hold back and it is not necessarily going to give us everything that we have looked for but it will look at it again and see if the need materalised. It is also important to say that over the years there has been a lot of spending that could not have been predicted. With Covid, a particular type of spending was required. With Ukraine, 18,000 children and young people arrived into the system. More than 6,000 of them needed school transport that we could not have planned for in late 2021 when we were looking at the 2022 budget, and again the next year. A lot of the growth in spending on the scheme is down to special education. We spend 60% of the budget for 13% of the children. While the average mainstream child costs about \u20ac1,480 for the year, on average, the cost for a child with special educational needs is \u20ac14,000. The growth in that area does justify a lot of the additional expenditure."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Martin Daly I can accept some of that but I would still say that we continue to blame Covid for a lot of things. In 2022, we were out of Covid. Let us park Covid. It is responsible for a lot of things but not for these types of estimates. I accept it is a demand-led scheme but, again, the variance seems to be very significant. If we are saying that 60% of the cost goes to 13% of pupils \u2013 I have no argument with that - the students have special and additional needs but in the review of the School Transport 2030 report, what emphasis has been given to look in detail at how children with special and additional needs are transported to school?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally There has been a lot of work. One of the colleagues here-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Martin Daly I am sorry to interrupt Ms McNally, but I was in Castlerea visiting a special school and we had children being transported from the south of Sligo, who are closer to a special school in Sligo. That demands planning between the Department of education, Bus \u00c9ireann and the other stakeholders. I wonder about how much detail the Department goes into on some of these costs."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally Traditionally, children were travelling long distances because we did not have special classes and special schools in their local community but the Deputy will know that we have doubled the number of special classes since 2020 and we have 20 new special schools. Over time, children are going to be travelling much shorter journeys. Some of those children started in a special class a couple of years ago which was quite a distance away, and even though there are now special classes more locally, obviously they want to stay where they started and it is going to take a few years for some of those children to work through the system so that children are travelling shorter journeys. Eventually, that will save us money but we do respect that if a family and a child have made a connection with a school that is a wee bit further away, we are not going to pull them out of there. That is a little bit of it but that will change things profoundly. I am not sure if Deputy Daly saw the maps that were included in the briefing pack but we had to amend them because there were so many dots and some of the maps were all green, or whatever it was. There are now so many \u2013 4,300 \u2013 special classes around the country that they are beginning to be in every community. They are not in every school yet but we are making specialist places more accessible."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Martin Daly Who decides? Who makes the assessment that a child needs to go by taxi, for example, rather than on a bus? I can understand that some children have to go by taxi with one-on-one supervision. Who makes that assessment? This is 60% of the budget."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally The Department of education works with the National Council for Special Education. The special educational needs organisers have a role. They know the child's needs. They also know the local school. They then work with Bus \u00c9ireann, which has a duty in that regard. If there is a route or service that is available, we will put an extra child on that, wherever we can. Bus \u00c9ireann works very hard to avoid having a one-to-one situation. If there is a service there already, we will put more children on it but on a number of occasions there is not and we do provide one-to-one services as well."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Martin Daly I know that under the school travel scheme there is a prescribed distance from school for primary school and secondary school. I have a situation, for example, in my constituency in Ballinasloe, where there is significant deprivation, intergenerational unemployment and very significant social issues. That has been shown by Pobal and there have been other studies in regard to this. Does the Department look at situations where, for example, people have no access to cars in a community like that? Clonfert College is almost 2 km out the road. We have written to Local Link to see if it could provide a service. Teachers tell us that children are not going to school simply because they cannot get there and they cannot afford to get a private taxi. Some of them are using a private taxi service. Is there any look at areas of special deprivation where there are extreme social circumstances, such as in Ballinasloe?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally I think the Deputy is saying where children do not meet those distance criteria of 3.2 km and 4.8 km."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Martin Daly Exactly."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally The school transport review we published in 2024 that we are implementing, and on which good progress has been made, looks to reduce the distance criteria. Now, it is for everybody at the moment."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Martin Daly I notice in the report there is a view to move towards integrating public transport with school transport. In that town in particular, starting at Creagh, which would be on the east side of the town, one Local Link bus at 8 a.m. linking up to Clonfert College and coming back at 4 p.m. would solve that problem. We can get no one to engage with us on that issue. It is a serious issue because there are children who are already starting behind the curve, who do not start school until they are six, do not go to preschool because of their circumstances and go to school hungry. All the stories are there from all the social enterprises. The data is there. We have it, if the Secretary General needs it. That would also solve other problems because there is a capacity issue in that town in terms of national school places. You have children now who cannot get from Creagh - these are children with resources - and have to get into Ballinasloe town to go to Clontuskert, which is five miles outside the town. I am just suggesting simple solutions but we cannot get anyone to engage anywhere."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally What the Deputy is saying is very reasonable. Our Ministers and Ministers with responsibility for transport have talked about the absolute need for us to do more work in this regard on integration. We have some integration pilot schemes already happening. What the Deputy suggests about maybe looking at areas of particular disadvantage for prioritisation around more pilot schemes to look at issues like that is something we can look at doing. We have a small amount of money in budget 2027 for further pilots and that work with the Department of Transport and Local Link. We are committed to advancing that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Martin Daly The other issue, and I think I speak for many public representatives on this, is that in August and September our phones were hopping. Many of the issues around tickets were resolved eventually, but I have one case where someone with the resources measured their distance to the school and had a dispute with Bus \u00c9ireann over the measuring. Bus \u00c9ireann was including a loop beyond their house in the country and that put them outside, so that it was Roscommon-Strokestown. I could get no engagement as a public representative with Bus \u00c9ireann and made phone calls. Eventually, my secretary was told that the person who dealt with them was on holidays in August, which they are well-entitled to, but an organisation that size should have had someone covering it at such a critical time of the year. He is in an appeal process three months down the road. He is a person with resources. How would it be for someone who does not have resources who is not enabled to deal with such a system that does not respond to their needs?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally Bus \u00c9ireann is here and might want to speak to this. I know that they try very hard. They are very committed to responding to customers. They have a call centre to try and deal with volumes of calls. On that route measurement, Bus \u00c9ireann tries to take a practical and fair approach."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Martin Daly But we need communication. Communication is required there. That is the point I am making. I am not trying to in any way pre-empt the outcome of that appeal, and it is going to an appeal, but communication would be important for such a simple issue."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach The CEO of Bus \u00c9ireann is here. Ms O'Sullivan might-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Martin Daly Sorry, I will direct that question to the CEO then. I apologise."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Jean O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Jean O'Sullivan Apologies, if that has been the situation for this particular family. We use geographic information system, GIS, mapping, which comes from a standard process that we use right across Government in terms of measuring the routes to and from school - from the home of the individual to the school - and if there is an appeal in relation to that. The one thing I would say about the school transport team is that it is very seldom that any of them take holidays in the summer period. They are so committed. One of the things I found fascinating when I joined Bus \u00c9ireann is that school transport members do not take summer holidays. I am surprised that there was somebody on leave, but I totally accept the fact that the communication in that particular case has failed. We understand that the volume of queries that come in on the customer piece come in in the summer when we are trying to also build out the routes and the mapping. It is unfortunate they overlap at the same time. If the Deputy wants to give me and Ms Flynn, the chief schools officer, the details, we will look into it individually."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Martin Daly I thank Ms O'Sullivan for her answer. In relation to special education, I pay tribute to the Department and to Deputy Michael Moynihan, the Minister of State for special education, for the huge amount of work that has been done to expand special education places in mainstream schools, in particular, but also in special schools. Of course, we have a lot to do yet. Is there a difficulty around flexibility of special needs assistants, SNAs? We have more SNAs than ever in the system, yet we have situations emerging where there is a lack of responsiveness to individual schools which have defined needs or changing needs that are backed up by their special educational needs organisers, SENOs, in those areas. Is there an issue around that? The point I am trying to make is that different schools have changing needs for SNAs. That is the way I would put it. If that need changes and that resource is not required any more, can the resource of an SNA be moved to a school where that resource is required?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Apologies, the Deputy has less than a minute left."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Martin Daly That is my last question so."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally I will answer that question. Briefly, the system is built to have some flexibility in it. Schools can contact the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, and ask for a review. At the moment, there are approximately 130 schools which have asked for a review. The fact others have not might suggest that they might be - I am not saying they are - doing okay. When they request a review, the NCSE can go out to look and see if more is needed and there is a resource. We have a resource available to look where there is particular need."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Martin Daly I accept that. I want to make this point. St. Ronan's school, in Taughmaconnell, in County Roscommon, which has 109 children, five mainstream teachers, 1.7 special education teachers, six level 3 students and nine level 2 students, put in an application, supported by the SENO, last May for additional SNA support. Eventually, it got declined in August. They are appealing now with the NCSE. They still have not got an answer. They were promised an answer last week. They have children with flight risk. They have had a changing need. It is well demonstrated. They are struggling. We have special education teachers, SETs, covering SNA lunches, and that becomes an issue if there are courses that they have to attend. I really would like to make that point about St. Ronan's in Taughmaconnell in Ballinasloe."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally We will take that case up with the NCSE to see where it is. There are almost 26,000 SNAs now across the system. Clearly, a SENO went out there and may have believed. SENOs themselves are former teachers. Some of them are therapists. Some of them might be very experienced SNAs. When they go out, they try to look objectively at whether the resource that is there is being used to best effect, but we will bring that case back to them."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Martin Daly I also accept that the Ministers involved have increased the SNA numbers to the highest level ever, that there is the highest level of special education teachers ever and there are expanding places. We have to say that an awful lot has been done and huge investment has been made. I thank the Secretary General."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally I thank the Deputy for acknowledging the Ministers' roles."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett I welcome everybody in today and thank them for coming before us in the public accounts committee. It is disturbing when I hear that some children are not eligible for school transport. The Department's mission statement is \"to ensure that all children and young people have access to a positive learning experience and to facilitate them, through learning to realise their .. potential and contribute to Ireland\u2019s social, economic ... development.\" As part of this, the Department funds the provision of services to and from post-primary schools for children who live a distance from their nearest school. I believe it is the Department's job to ensure children get to school. It is awful to say \"children that need to get education\". All children need to get an education. How could there be any ineligible students, especially in rural communities? Where I come from, we do not have a public bus system. We do not live in a city where there is public transportation. That does not happen. It is disheartening. Maybe I will start with Ms O'Sullivan, who is very welcome here today. I refer to one of the recommendations from the published document on the school transport scheme. That document went out, I suppose, from Ms McNally's Department in 2019. There was a review asked for at that time and it did not commence until 2021. I know Ms McNally was not there at the time. It was finally published in February 2024. We are still seven years out from the review of the school transport scheme but everything within that school transport scheme has not been implemented as yet. As far as I am aware, the reduction in distances from 4.8 km has not happened. Maybe somebody can explain why."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally Maybe I will answer those questions because I think both points the Deputy made are on the policy side, but if anyone from Bus \u00c9ireann wants to come in, they can do so. I will start with the Deputy's earlier comments about the non-eligible people. This is a scheme and while I talked earlier about it being demand led, it is demand led within a certain rule. There have to be rules to every scheme. Otherwise, we could not estimate costs in any manner. About 18% of children are using the scheme at the moment. Were we to make it available to everyone, it would either cost significantly more or we could integrate-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett There should be no cost for education. It should be a priority of the Department of education to ensure every child gets educated."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally The school transport review, which we are introducing, looks at reducing the eligibility criteria, but it recognises that if we do that, we could see a massive increase. One of the pilots - Rochfortbridge - showed a 500% increase in demand because we reduced the distance criteria. That is not really affordable for the State, possibly, unless we do more on the integration. That is why we are working really hard on the integration. From a policy perspective, it was a rural initiative initially. Those criteria of 3.2 km and 4.8 km were an initial part of the scheme."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett I will go back to the review that said the Department was going to reduce it to 2 km. How does Ms McNally expect children 4.8 km away to get to school if they are in a rural community? Does she want them to walk along roads that are very dangerous because there are no footpaths or other infrastructure in place? I am just wondering what way the Department is thinking this out. Children need to get education. I will come back to Ms McNally on another point. Every child should receive a school transport ticket. I do not understand at this stage of the game why there are not scanners on buses to see that if a child is not using the ticket, they do not need it. I hear all the time from people who have contacted me this year who could not get school transportation. In my eyes, there is a very easy solution to the problem. Scan the tickets and if children are not using them, then there are free seats on the buses. Buses are going to schools with loads of free seats on them, yet I am being told that the buses are full to capacity, which is not the situation. I am just wondering why nobody is scanning the tickets to see if the tickets are being used."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally We all want a technology solution and we have piloted-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett Why has it not happened then? It has been seven years and-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally We would like to be further on. We have piloted different mechanisms and there have been challenges with would-be solutions. However, we are advancing this. There is intensive work happening between the Department and Bus \u00c9ireann to progress this. Regarding the capacity on buses, every seat on every bus has a child's name and a ticket associated with it-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett They are not on them."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally -----but we do not have the technology. We all know that in families, children are sick, doing football after school, etc. Therefore, there is never going to be 100% utilisation unless we change policy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett How does a parent who has applied for a ticket before the cut-off deadline and paid the money then get a letter just before September to say his or her child is not eligible for it?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally I will answer that from a policy perspective as well. We know that every child who is eligible for a mainstream ticket has got a ticket now. The children who have-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett I can tell Ms McNally they have not. I have emails on my phone. The parents of children had their money refunded and were told they were non-eligible even though they had applied before the deadline."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally We allow non-eligible people to apply. Non-eligibles are allowed to apply and they pay, and if there is then a seat left on the bus after all the eligible children-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett How can any child be non-eligible?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally It is because the scheme-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett I just do not get what the Department is saying. It has got-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally The scheme has eligibility criteria. To be eligible, people must-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett I actually think it would go to a court of law that Ms McNally is saying children are not eligible for school bus tickets. They live in a rural community. They have no other way to get to school. Ms McNally is saying they are non-eligible. It just does not come home to me."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally The scheme was created several decades ago. There are those distance criteria and children also must be going to their nearest school. If they meet those distance criteria, they are eligible. If they apply on time and pay on time, they get a ticket. We want to use every seat on the bus, so we encourage non-eligibles to also apply, but they will only get a seat if there are spaces left on the bus after the eligible children have been dealt with."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett Whose bright idea was it last year to increase the tickets to double the amount they were the year before?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally The Minister announced this year that tickets were going to go back to what-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett They went up last year as well."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally Last year, they went up as well. I think that-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett Are they going to go up again?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally Yes, that has been announced. That is going to be-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett They went from \u20ac50 to \u20ac100 and now they are going up to \u20ac200."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally That is still, even with the higher amount-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett Will Ms McNally confirm that it is going to go up to \u20ac200 for a school bus ticket where children cannot get a school? Ms McNally cannot confirm to me that every child in the country is going to get a school bus ticket in a rural community, but the Department is increasing the prices by \u20ac200. Is that correct?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett Every eligible child who applied-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett Is going to have their bus ticket increased to \u20ac200."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally -----has got a seat on the bus now. Every eligible child on the mainstream service who has applied and paid-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett How can the Department decipher between eligible and non-eligible? It is very unfair because there are people in rural communities who I believe are living beyond the distance of 4.8 km. They are eligible but the Department is saying that they are not. Is it a lottery system? How does the Department decipher if somebody is eligible or non-eligible?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally The rules of the scheme are very clear. It is those distance criteria and it is the nearest school. However, the school transport review does propose that we change those rules, so we are working towards changing those eligibility-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett The school review has been going for seven years."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally It was published in 2024 and we have about 40% of the actions in it completed."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett However, it has been going on for seven years."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally Yes. Since it was published in 2024, we have about 40% completed and we are on the way. We are progressing it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett Who made the decision that the bus tickets were going to increase to \u20ac200 next year? Is that what Ms McNally said?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally There are different prices. There is \u20ac100-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett Who decided that?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally That was a budgetary decision as part of budget 2027."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett A budgetary decision through the Minister and the Department."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally The Department. Ultimately, it was a whole-of-government decision."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett Okay. In relation to that, when Ms O'Sullivan came into her role in Bus \u00c9ireann, I understand her salary increased from \u20ac210,000. Is that correct?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach This is the last minute, Deputy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Jean O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Jean O'Sullivan I thank the Deputy. I have worked in the public sector for 30 years, so I understand absolutely the scrutiny that comes to the public purse, particularly in relation to CEO salaries."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett What is Ms O'Sullivan's salary working for Bus \u00c9ireann?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Jean O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Jean O'Sullivan I applied for a role in Bus \u00c9ireann as CEO through a robust open competition, after which I was appointed to that salary of \u20ac260,000, and for transparency-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett However, the role before that was \u20ac210,000. Am I correct in saying that?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Jean O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Jean O'Sullivan The previous CEO's role was \u20ac210,000, which had been fixed for seven years."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett Okay, but Bus \u00c9ireann actually sought to pay \u20ac280,000 to Ms O'Sullivan. Is that correct?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Jean O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Jean O'Sullivan It was \u20ac260,000."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett However, Ms O'Sullivan wanted \u20ac280,000 at the start."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Jean O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Jean O'Sullivan I have no idea about that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett Ms O'Sullivan does not. I find it amazing that, to get children to school to get their education, their bus tickets are going to be increased, but the CEO's salary went up, just in case Ms O'Sullivan does not know, from \u20ac210,000 to \u20ac260,000 when she came into the position. That is correct."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Jean O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Jean O'Sullivan Yes. That is the position I applied for."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett Yet we cannot get children on school buses to school. It beggars belief. What is this Government at?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I thank Deputy Bennett. I call Deputy McAuliffe."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul McAuliffe I thank the witnesses for being here today. I do not have too many questions on school transport, being a Dublin TD. I certainly do not get the same level of queries as some of my colleagues. However, as a member of my parliamentary party, I would reiterate that it is a consistent issue that appears each year. When something comes up like that at the same time each year for the same reason and so on, it points to a structural issue. Part of it is, as the witnesses said, the question of eligibility. I would point to the fact that there certainly are a lot of issues around communication. I think some of the frustration Deputy Daly had earlier speaks to that. I will leave it at that. Obviously, we have children in special education availing of school transport. In my area, we have had a very significant expansion of the number of both special classes and special schools. That has greatly assisted the reduction in the requirement for transport. Nobody wants to see their child sitting on a bus when they do not have to. I want to speak to that issue of special education. When you look at the numbers in regard to the expansion, it has been very significant. A concern I have is that during any period of significant expansion, you always ask yourself whether value for money is being adhered to. The budget for the NCSE went from \u20ac20 million to \u20ac40 million between 2020 and 2025. The number of SNAs increased from 17,000 to 25,000. The number of special class teachers increased from 2,000 to 4,300. The number of students enrolled in special classes or special schools went from 18,000 to 31,000. There is no doubt that there has been a significantly increased level of service delivery. My question relates to the construction projects that often come alongside that. What steps has the Department taken to ensure there is value for money in the provision of additional school buildings, specifically for special education? Principals relate to me that in year 1 or 2 of the emergency response to this, a lot more funds were available. This year, and maybe last year a little bit as well, there is much tighter scrutiny of the finances around additional accommodation for special education classes. How is the Department ensuring value for money, and what is the impact of that on service delivery?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally I thank the Deputy and others for their recognition of the work the Minister, Deputy Naughton, and the Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan, have done to respond to need. The Deputy talked about the level of need and we know that it is expanding. Zoning in on the building programme, the Deputy knows that we have \u20ac7.5 billion over five years, with \u20ac1.6 billion this year. We do a huge amount of activity to get value for money in that, honestly. I could spend a lot of time on that but I will not. We have about 26 frameworks in place. We follow procurement fairly ruthlessly but we also have frameworks so that we have different options. We target large, tier 1 and small and medium providers. We target a number of different contractors, etc., to be available to do the work. In regard to value for money, we have everything pre-designed. We have technical specifications, layouts, etc., organised. We have very little change orders on our contracts because everything is designed upfront to minimise the amount of change that comes later. We research that and I can talk about that further. A huge amount of work has been done. One of the big things we have had to do this year is utilise existing capacity. That \u20ac1.6 billion we have is a lot of money and as much as we all love it, we have had to reutilise existing capacity so we give the schools \u20ac30,000 in grants or \u20ac80,000 in grants."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul McAuliffe Is that where the Department is asking schools to repurpose existing classrooms rather than the provision of-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally Exactly. Where it is appropriate. We know that this year, for example, a couple of hundred schools have just taken the \u20ac30,000 grant. Another 240 or thereabouts have looked for the \u20ac80,000 grant to do refurbishment. Out of those 587 extra classes we have done this year, 500 are in existing accommodation with some grant assistance to make them work. Then there are about 87 where we have had to have new builds or modular."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul McAuliffe For those new builds or modular, does the Department have a figure for a price per classroom that it is able to bring in?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally We do, and my colleague Hubert can come in here. We have a very close idea of what we expect to pay."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul McAuliffe Has that decreased over the last number of years?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally I will ask my colleague Hubert to come in on that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hubert Loftus","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Hubert Loftus I thank the Deputy for the question. In the wider sense, it is across the construction sector. The construction sector environment is challenging enough. We have been in periods of elevated inflation due to wider concerns. As our Secretary General has indicated, the vast bulk of our needs, whether it is special classes or the new special schools we have established, the focus and first port of call is to repurpose existing accommodation and maximise. That is the most efficient way to get timely delivery and it is also very cost-effective."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul McAuliffe How much does a modular or external class cost?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hubert Loftus","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Hubert Loftus For a standard classroom, you are probably looking at around \u20ac370,000 excluding VAT as a base for the actual modular unit. Then you can have various scenarios. As for the additional site costs relating to that, it depends on the particular sites involved and all of that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul McAuliffe Of course."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hubert Loftus","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Hubert Loftus That is around \u20ac370,000 for the actual unit."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul McAuliffe It is \u20ac370,000 for the unit itself and then you have site costs. Could site costs be in the region of \u20ac100,000 or could they exceed the \u20ac300,000 figure for the unit itself?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hubert Loftus","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Hubert Loftus No, they would not exceed it. There would be a proportion of it as a percentage but that would vary depending on the particular sites involved."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul McAuliffe What is the lifetime of some of those units?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hubert Loftus","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Hubert Loftus We have a very strong emphasis on quality-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul McAuliffe I should call it a construction unit as opposed to a unit as a class. I know that is not the correct term."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hubert Loftus","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Hubert Loftus Yes, and I call the modular \"permanent accommodation\" because that is what it is. It is just one of the variety of delivery mechanisms that we use. The lifespan we use with regard to assessing modular accommodation, no more than any other, is our standard, typical lifespan of 60 years but, obviously, with a good maintenance regime and a stronger emphasis on that as part of the national development plan, NDP, roll-out, that lifespan gets expanded-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul McAuliffe There has been discussion around the rental of modular accommodation. Am I correct in saying that, certainly in my constituency, the construction modular units that have been put in have largely been purchased as opposed to rented. Is the Department using rental of modular accommodation for the provision of special classes?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hubert Loftus","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Hubert Loftus The standard approach for us is to purchase modular accommodation. It is a permanent solution."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul McAuliffe How many schools are using rental?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hubert Loftus","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Hubert Loftus We are doing a rental review for the public accounts committee. It will probably be completed primarily by quarter 1 of 2027. In regard to rentals, when I look at the budget I have to manage - \u20ac1.6 billion - the rentals in any given year are about 2% of that, and that is a static or falling figure. It is more a legacy of the past rather than where we are for the future."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul McAuliffe The Secretary General spoke about the issue of frameworks and so on. We all know that people can make a tender on one basis but then the reality of delivery can sometimes be different. Has the Department identified, let us say, contractors with consistent issues? Anecdotally, groups like Education Equality and others are starting to notice that particular suppliers or project managers have more delivery issues than others. That is a voluntary group doing it anecdotally. What measures is the Department taking to ensure those issues do not arise?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hubert Loftus","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Hubert Loftus We have a robust governance process for our school building programme. In the school sector, it is very much about standardised layouts and design. Whether I go into a school in Dublin, Cork, Kerry or Donegal, it is pretty much the same inside. It might vary a bit outside depending on the local circumstances of the site, planning conditions, etc., but it is very much standardised once it is in the classroom."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul McAuliffe Are some contractors better at design, management and delivery than others?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hubert Loftus","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Hubert Loftus There are always elements of that but, as part of our overall procurement strategy, our approach is to look at which of the contractors, and the scale of them, are best suited to the larger, more complex projects-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul McAuliffe Is there a systematic approach to that?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hubert Loftus","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Hubert Loftus Absolutely. We have a procurement unit that manages some of that for us and we have a lot of expertise in that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul McAuliffe How does that procurement unit engage with, for example, a school principal who might have very practical examples of what has gone right or wrong? The Department and I have dealt with each other in regard to schools in my area. Mr. Loftus talked earlier about the defined profile or design. Under one planning process, I would have said some very basic questions were not included in the planning application, around green roofs and so on. Those are the things tha cause delays and result in parents not getting a place. The quality of the contractor and those kinds of things need to be managed better."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hubert Loftus","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Hubert Loftus It is always an evolving picture and environment. There is a challenging construction sector, with evolving requirements in regard to regulations, the sustainability and climate agendas, and all of that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul McAuliffe Is the Department bringing the experience of the school principal into the procurement unit to review contractors?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hubert Loftus","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Hubert Loftus Absolutely. Our teams are out there supporting schools. We have buildings officers and all of that. That feeds back and we have a team that continually looks at our designs and how we evolve and improve them. There are always learnings in this job, and that is just the way of life."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joe Neville I thank everyone for attending. My first question is about the spend on transport in the education system. Deputy Daly alluded to variances. What caught my attention were the ups and downs during the years. It was \u20ac225 million in 2020, \u20ac512 million in 2024, \u20ac479 in 2025 and \u20ac640 million for 2026 or 2027. That is bouncing around. We or anyone involved in accounting are used to seeing budgets going like this. Obviously, there might be a drop for a good reason, but what we see here is a rapid increase, then it goes down, then up and then there is another rapid increase. I am not blaming the witnesses. I am potentially questioning what the politicians are doing. Are the witnesses just having to respond to decisions being made, things being said and platitudes being offered? Why is the Department of education budget bouncing around to such a degree?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally It is moving because of need and circumstances. For example, some of the change-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joe Neville I genuinely do not buy that, because need is need. The need was probably always there. If you change the criteria, need will go with what happens. Ms McNally said earlier that it is demand led. I get what she is saying, but I almost do not buy that either. If you keep changing the criteria, demand will reach it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally Ukraine was not predicted. It caused a spike. Some 18,000 children came into the country, and 6,200 of them were on the scheme. There were 5,000 the following year-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joe Neville We changed the criteria to match that need."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally That is one thing."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joe Neville Ms McNally is using it as an example of criteria."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally The cost of living is another. In different years, the Government provided extra money for school transport to make fees more affordable. In 2022-23, fees were reduced completely------"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joe Neville They were reduced to zero."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally Exactly."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joe Neville Did that make sense?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally That was a huge affordability measure."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joe Neville Did it make sense to do it?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally It was a cost-of-living measure that made school transport-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joe Neville Did it make sense to do that?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally There was a strong justification for it-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joe Neville And Ms McNally agreed with that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally -----but it did increase. We saw an increase of 26,000 in the number of applications. It was a cost-of-living measure that was extremely popular. It was really warmly welcomed."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joe Neville We are not talking about being popular; we are talking about doing what is right. That is why I am wondering what the Department\u2019s role in it is. Politicians will always try to make popular decisions. However, from the perspective of governance and the management of costs, are they pushing back on that?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally The Government and our Ministers have said that in normal circumstances a fee is appropriate. The school transport review has said that it is desirable-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joe Neville Then why was that done? Did Ms McNally disagree in 2023?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally There were particular circumstances after Covid and with Ukraine. The cost of living was high. There were particular circumstances at the time that merited it. However, we are introducing and restoring fees again."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joe Neville Was it a mistake to do it in 2023? What I am getting at here is that this is the PAC. Ultimately, we are here to ask how much is being spent and if it is being spent right. I will not say that I am against school transport, just as last week I did not say I am against school meals. Anyone who is against those would be wrong in the eyes of the public. At the same time, we have a job to do to ensure that serious questions are asked. Last week, we could see where \u20ac50 million in funding was being wasted on school meals. The total budget for school meals five years ago was \u20ac50 million. We see all these costs going up, but I am asking whether the Department of education pushes back when it needs to and says that something is wrong and that it does not agree with it. Does it just say that something is all right and then waits to see what storm it brings? Bus \u00c9ireann then has to try to get the buses to deal with that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally Ministers and the Government have made the decision to restore fees to the level they were at in 2021-22, which will still be 92% subsidised for primary and 75% subsidised for post-primary. That is probably a solution that will support the sustainability of this scheme and, as other Deputies have said, allow us to expand it and possibly reduce distance criteria, etc. The evidence does support charging a heavily subsidised fee, and that has been the decision of Ministers and the Government in recent times."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joe Neville That is important. It is where the Department has to ask hard questions, because we are seeing variances and cost escalations all over the place. How much of the \u20ac640 million relates to is taxis?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally I will get the exact number, but I think it is approximately \u20ac143 million. Those taxis are predominantly used for children who have very customised special educational needs."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joe Neville I am not even going to question that. What is the highest paid taxi operator?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally I do not know if I have that information. I do not know if Bus \u00c9ireann has it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joe Neville I want to get a feel for it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom Delaney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Tom Delaney It is an annual payment of \u20ac71,500."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joe Neville Somebody gets paid \u20ac71,500 to drive-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom Delaney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Tom Delaney Let me correct that. It is \u20ac73,300."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joe Neville I do not want to talk about the individual involved. At the same time, it is important that information comes out of the PAC. A taxi driver is being paid \u20ac73,000 to bring somebody to school."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom Delaney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Tom Delaney To clarify for the Deputy, that is a rate of \u20ac1.78 per kilometre. That service is-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joe Neville Once again, I am not going to question that service because, I am sure the person needs it. At the same time, it is important to identify, because we are seeing that as an issue."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally There could be a number of children involved. It could be a seven-seater vehicle. There are a good number of children on these transports."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joe Neville Once again, I want to get a feel for it. Are we happy with that in all the individual areas? This is what I want to clarify. Tenders are put out in the area overseen by Kildare and Wicklow Education and Training Board,, KWETB, for example. That is the area Deputy Farrelly and I are most familiar with. Does the tender for the buses come through the schools or is it through the like of the KWETB?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom Delaney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Tom Delaney We run the tenders. Just to give a flavour-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joe Neville Is that the Department of Bus \u00c9ireann?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom Delaney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Tom Delaney Bus \u00c9ireann."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joe Neville Bus \u00c9ireann runs the individual tenders, but the tender process for out-of-school use, like driving to and from school, bus services for matches and all that, is separate. That is also what I want to clarify. Bus \u00c9ireann controls every element of it. Does it do the taxis as well?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom Delaney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Tom Delaney Yes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Jean O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Jean O'Sullivan They are also procured."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joe Neville The company goes through all of that. Is it happy that there is a competitive procurement process for each of those taxis?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Jean O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Jean O'Sullivan When we talk about taxis, it is important to state that we have approximately 3,000 of them in the system. As Ms McNally said, they support children with additional special needs. Some 740 of those taxis offer a one-to-one service. I think we should be proud that the State provides that service."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joe Neville That is what I was saying-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Jean O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Jean O'Sullivan I know the Deputy is saying that too."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joe Neville That is not what-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Jean O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Jean O'Sullivan I get that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joe Neville I am trying to move the discussion away from the point where there is a risk of it becoming emotive."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Jean O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Jean O'Sullivan Okay."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joe Neville I just want to go through the numbers, because that is our job today. It is not for Ms O'Sullivan to tell me that kids need a chance, and no more so than everybody needing school meals."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Jean O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Jean O'Sullivan No. I am saying that even when we are looking at it, we say that there is a cost that we manage robustly within a procurement framework. There is then a cost that comes to the value of what is needed for the child. It is expensive."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joe Neville Absolutely. From a special education perspective, what will teachers be asked to do for people entering primary schools? What role are they being given? What are we changing?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally Is the Deputy talking about the role teachers in primary schools are being given to serve children with special educational needs?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joe Neville Who gets to decide the designation and information that comes into them?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally The system is based on whether a parent believes their child has particular special educational needs that require specialist provision. The Deputy should remember that most children are supported in mainstream classes with access to all those special education teachers we have. For every three or four mainstream teachers we have, we have one special education resource teacher helping those children in mainstream classes. If a parent believes that level of support and all the SNAs in mainstream are not enough and want a special class or special class or school, under the existing scheme they have to get a professional assessment. It might be a psychologist or someone who says-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joe Neville I will be quick. I am conscious of time and I know it is an open-ended question. Will individual teachers now have more of an influence?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally We want to do the right thing for children. We find that their having to get this professional assessment with a diagnosis is blocking some children from advancing through the system."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joe Neville I get that, but my fear is that teachers are being asked to do something which, realistically, they are not really in a position of wanting to do. That is what I want to clarify."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally We have increased the number of teachers in the system. We are now going to have-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joe Neville We are also asking a lot more of the teachers and we have to be conscious of that as well."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally That is why we are putting in all those resource teachers and why we have doubled the number of special classes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joe Neville We have not doubled the number of teachers. From a construction perspective, we have given extra classrooms. I look at St. Anne's in Ardclough. It is a new school and was given an extra class. At the same time, are we comfortable and happy with the level of funding that is being made available for these schools, not to mind that I have also seen the need for a three-school campus in Kildare where St. Raphael's is a special school as well? Are we happy that we have the resources from a capital perspective to ensure, first of all, that when we say we are going to do it, we deliver it, which we have not done in time in Celbridge? There is then the situation in Ardclough where we have given the support to the principal and the school to deliver what was promised to the parents and students who potentially are coming in"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hubert Loftus","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Hubert Loftus In terms of that Ardclough case, we met with the school and design team recently in relation to guidance and advice around their project. Some of our team went out and visited that school as well and provided them with good advice. They key thing there is making sure that the proposed works being done are cost-effective and work within the parameters of our scheme. That is the direction of travel we want to see there. More generally, we have a \u20ac7.5 billion NDP envelope that gives us good clarity and certainty for the period form 2026 to 2030. Our job in the planning and building unit is to work through that, prioritise the needs and special needs-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joe Neville With St. Raphael's and the three-school campus element of it too, we have a school with a specific set of needs. They have been promised it for many years but it is not being delivered. Those students require that service and building but they are not getting it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hubert Loftus","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Hubert Loftus We are aware of that campus. It is an important project for us. It includes a special school, but there was also a history to that site issue outside the direct control of the Department that we had to manage through our work. That is now on a pathway forward and is certainly now a project that is in the latter stages of our design and ultimately will get considered like our other projects going forward for our next prioritisation approach that we will be doing."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joe Neville I thank the witnesses. I know I bounced from topic to topic, but I thank them for their time."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath I thank the witnesses for being here this morning. I will start off on the school transport element. Like other members, I acknowledge the huge increase in the scale of the operation and the budget. In 2026, it is \u20ac641 million, which has come from just over \u20ac200 million a short number of years ago. It is a huge operation to manage and that is fully understood. In many cases, it provides a great service. It is important to say that too, but it is fair to say that every year the summer is the one time of the year that many public representatives dread when it comes around because we get contacted by families in a state of desperation where, for one reason or another, it is not working out for them. One family member may have a school bus place and another does not, or the local school does not have a place and therefore they no longer qualify for the service, and there are other operational issues as well. In some cases, family members previously had tickets but do not for the coming year. A wide range of issues present themselves and we, as public representatives, try to assist and engage with people. It is acknowledged that there are significant operational issues. Where are we with the 2024 review in terms of implementation? Can the witnesses give us a quick update on where things stand?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally I thank the Deputy for acknowledging the scale and what has been delivered. We absolutely empathise with Deputies. We know that summers can be very difficult. Again, as I said at the beginning, when we look at it and analyse it, the dissatisfaction is mostly with the non-eligibles and the concessionary. They have an expectation. They have applied and paid on time, and they really hope that they are going to get it. Sometimes they get it and sometimes they do not because to use the money that has been voted to us for this purpose, we have to live within the rules of the scheme. Regarding the review, as I said, we are progressing every action that has to be progressed in it and we are about 40% complete. The biggest thing that will help what the Deputy is describing-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath Sorry, I am just caught for time, so I need to be very specific."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally -----is the integration with public sector transport. That is the biggest thing."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath Where are we with that issue?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally We have had one particularly relevant pilot down in Shannon-Limerick, etc., where, integrated with public service routes, we were able to take seven school transport vehicles off the road and use public sector vehicles as well. That has been a very successful pilot. It was huge work with the Department of Transport and we are really grateful for the collaboration there. We hope to build on that this year. As I said, we have a little bit of money in the budget and we hope to build on that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath In terms of the remaining recommendations, Ms McNally says that 40-something per cent of them have been implemented, so we are 50-something-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally Progress is being made with all of the rest of them. We mentioned data-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath What is the timeline for the full implementation of those recommendations? The report is two years old at this stage."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally We will make a lot of progress on the ones that are totally within our control but the integration with the routes is a very big one. That will take a little bit more time but our respective Ministers are-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath Can we have an estimated timeline?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally -----really engaging."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath Is there a targeted timeline?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally I cannot really-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath The Department does not have a timeline."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally I hope to see a lot of progress. Our Ministers in both Departments, senior Ministers and junior Ministers, are really engaging and we hope to see good progress there."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath Anti-competitive practices were previously found in the area of school transport provision. The Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, CCPC, pursued the matter and five individuals were convicted, as I understand it. Are we confident that similar practices do not exist within the provision of the service at this point in time?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally We aware of that work with the CCPC. Across a service of this scale, where we have 11,000 routes and over 8,000 vehicles, things like this can arise so procurement practice is really important. The Deputy might want to pull Bus \u00c9ireann in here, but it has very robust procurement practices."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath What level of resource does Bus \u00c9ireann put into ensuring that there are no anti-competitive practices? Will one of its representatives give us a snapshot of what it does to ensure that these issues are not repeated?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom Delaney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Tom Delaney I will answer the Deputy's question. There are a couple of things. First of all, the people who were found guilty, all of their contracts were terminated - just so we are clear in terms of what we do when we know. The second thing is regarding procurement, roughly speaking, we did about 3,200 tenders in the last four to five months and we had 15,000 bids. Roughly 83% of the tenders we did had more than two bids. More than 65% had more than three bids, which is competition."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath It is, but it could also be co-operation."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom Delaney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Tom Delaney Pardon?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath On the face of it, it is competition, but it looked like there was competition before and there was co-operation between the providers."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom Delaney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Tom Delaney The Deputy is quite right. The second part of what we do is that we have developed over the last couple of years three internal metrics to look and see if it is value for money. I do not necessarily want to go into those unless the Deputy wants to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath No. Does Bus \u00c9ireann receive complaints that there are alleged anti-competitive practices?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom Delaney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Tom Delaney If we did, we would report them immediately."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath Does Bus \u00c9ireann receive complaints?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom Delaney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Tom Delaney We had one which is what led to what happened."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath Have any further complaints come through to Bus \u00c9ireann?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom Delaney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Tom Delaney Not yet."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath I appreciate that. I want to raise the issue of school transport escorts. That is very often one of the reasons given for transport provision not being provided in special cases. How much of a difficulty is recruiting school escorts for the Department?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally We have talked to this committee about whether it is difficult to get SNAs. We can fill SNA positions fairly easily across the country. Bus escorts can be a little bit more difficult. There definitely can be situations but to address that we increased the pay about two years ago and it is now aligned with public sector deals."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath It is somewhere between \u20ac15 and \u20ac16 an hour, but they do not get paid until the point of pick-up, for example, so they can have travel costs. They may get two to three hours pay per day, for example, so on a weekly basis, it ultimately adds up to very little."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally It is a part-time job and it-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath Is there any plan to review it further?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally We are constantly looking at the bus escort service. It is a really important service for us. They are aligned now so as other pay levels go up, they will go up with it. We have provided an information pack. There is actually a review under way and my colleague, Mr. Clohessy, is further looking at this. They perform a really important role for us."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath It is being looked at. I want to turn to special education and I again acknowledge the increase in all aspects of that in recent years. That is to be acknowledged and welcomed but it is still an area where a lot of work is needed. In terms of the Department of education as a whole, special education is very often cited as a reason for the project overrun for 2026. Is that a fair description?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally In 2026, we are going to come in on budget. There had been difficulties in previous years. A lot of them actually had to do with general payroll and requiring supplementaries for teachers and SNAs, but we would have worked with Department of public expenditure and reform and proven that the predictions we had around the number of teachers needed within the system were accurate and it would have given us supplementaries. I know that the C and AG has a chapter-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath To clarify, Ms McNally said they are coming in on budget. What year does the \u20ac600 million overrun apply to?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally In 2026, we are going to come within budget because earlier this year we got an additional \u20ac646 million. That has gone into the budget, so we will-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath You were \u20ac600 million short in the original budget."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally Yes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath Let us be straight about that. Special education has often been cited as the reason for that overrun. Is that a fair description?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally Yes. Most of that \u20ac646 million was payroll and some of it was school transport. Approximately \u20ac400 million was on payroll, school transport and addressing an existing structural deficit, but about \u20ac200 million was for the additional demand that emerged. The Deputy will recall the parent-notified process within the NCSE where we ask parents to notify us in advance. That identified a much more significant need for this September. Instead of the 400 special classes we had funding for, we needed funding for 587, for example. That dealt with that extra demand."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath Many people would regard this as a failure of planning within the system. I will give an example from my own constituency. There is an emerging chronic shortage of secondary school places in the area I represent in Carrigaline, Passage West, Crosshaven and Douglas. What people cannot understand is those children were in primary level school, and the numbers were there and we know what is coming through, yet there is now an emerging chronic shortage of places for those children to go on to local secondary schools. How does that happen?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally I might call in my colleague, Mr. Loftus, on this but there is strong forward planning. For example, at present, we have 10,000 more first year places than we have sixth class students. Mr. Loftus can go into more detail on that. We generally get our predictions right but there are pockets. Even though our demographics are going down there are areas, particularly urban areas, where there is growth. I will call Mr. Loftus in to add to that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath I appreciate Mr. Loftus may not have the detail for the area I highlighted in Cork South-Central, but this is certainly one of those pockets where, based on what I am getting from families, there is a major shortage of places. Again, I go back to my point that these children are coming from primary level education. How does the Department not foresee the difficulties and make provision on time for available places in the coming year? It is just difficult to understand."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hubert Loftus","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Hubert Loftus I thank the Deputy. More generally, we have quite a robust forward-planning process and use technology, our geographic information system and all the engagement we have with local authorities. Planning requirements are ultimately linked to housing roll-out, managing all that and working that through. For Cork South-Central, the Deputy's constituency, there are seven school planning areas. Those have peaked at primary level and three have peaked at post-primary level. We have managed and worked through that provision. One of the biggest developments we are currently engaging in with the local authority is probably the big plan for the docklands area. Ultimately, there will be huge provision there of 25,000. We will have a lot of work there with school sites being reserved and provision being required. That is probably the biggest piece. We have the same numbers in broad terms transitioning from primary to post-primary in recent years. The key thing there is managing capacity well at post-primary and maximising and optimising that. We work with a lot of school stakeholders to ensure that is achieved. Part of the challenge, in tandem with that more generally, is making sure solutions are being worked through around special needs and special needs provision in the mainstream schools."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath I am out of time. Thank you for that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Grace Boland The witnesses are very welcome. As someone who represents Fingal, one of the youngest areas in the country, special education is obviously a huge focus for me. I welcome the additional places in Balbriggan and the new school which will hopefully open in Loughshinny next year. However, as Deputy McGrath has said, we really need to see secondary school places. Balbriggan, Skerries, Rush and Lusk are rapidly growing. I know it can be hard to model, but ready-made families with older children are moving into the area and secondary school places are a necessity. I have said before that Skerries has its own school district and has no special education secondary school places. It is essential we see that delivered next year in Skerries Community College and St. Joseph's Secondary School. It is very close to submitting its finalised 2b application, but it is absolutely essential we see work on that school and Gaelscoil Ros Eo in Rush, which is rapidly developing. I am now going to turn to school transport. Obviously, we are delivering more school special education classrooms right around the country and we all see that. However, yet again, in the past week I had an email from a parent who lives in Rush and desperately wants their child to go to the new school in Loughshinny next year, but its enrolment has not opened yet because the school has not opened. She has been given a list of special schools to apply to, with the closest in Ballymun and the furthest in Rathfarnham. It makes no sense to send a child from Rush to Rathfarnham. Similarly, I know there is a child coming from Sandyford to the new special school in Balbriggan. This is why the school transport has gone absolutely wild. It is not because parents want to send their kids from Sandyford to Balbriggan or Drogheda to Dublin city centre; it is because they have no choice. This is not about preferential schools. Is the Secretary General engaging with parents on an annual basis? Parents are saying if their child goes to school on the other side of the city, they cannot go to parent-teacher meetings or pick them up when they are sick, and will not be involved in the school community. I am not saying any parent or family wants their children to stay where they currently are. I fully appreciate that they might be embedded in their communities, but at the same time we have to bring children closer to their communities. We have to allow parents to be involved in the school communities. That should also help us with the school transport issue. Is the Department asking parents on an annual basis whether it would be possible if new school places were opening in their community, and there was another family who could swap, they would be open to bringing their child closer to their community?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally I will ask my colleague, Ms Mannion, to come in but I absolutely assure the Deputy we are in violent agreement with her and those parents, and we have demonstrated this. For 20 years, there were no extra special schools but in the past five or six years, we have had 20 extra special schools built after 20 years of none. Special classes have doubled in number. Our ambition, and we are delivering on this, is more special classes and more special schools in local communities. That is what we aspire to. We do not want families travelling long distances but, as I said, some that have started may want to continue, so it will take awhile. The Deputy asked if they could swap and the answer is \"Yes\". That is why we have put more SENOs into the National Council for Special Education. At one stage, they were in the high 60s and now there are about 127. This is so they know the children in their area, the schools and parents, and they can have those conversations."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Grace Boland To confirm, are the SENOs having those conversations with parents on an annual basis?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Martina Mannion","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Martina Mannion Yes, Deputy. We are delighted Balbriggan opened for 18 students last month. It is a huge start and we are delighted about that. There are 44 special schools in Dublin catering for over 2,700 students. Eight of the new schools are in Dublin-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Grace Boland I am caught on time. I do not need to hear-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Martina Mannion","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Martina Mannion The point of this is we have created massive additional capacity in Dublin. It is one of those areas where we know it is needed."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Grace Boland I agree. I made that point myself. Is the Department looking at trying to bring children in and telling families that even though they will have to apply to Sandyford or Rathfarnham, next year it can look and see if it can bring them closer to their communities?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Martina Mannion","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Martina Mannion Part of the reason we have asked for the parent-notified process and for parents to engage with the NCSE is exactly for that purpose. The NCSE needs to know where those children are. Many of the children who applied for September 2027 places are people already in places who are looking for alternative places."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Grace Boland I will ask Ms Mannion a question. What percentage of those children this year have said they want to come closer to their community now that classrooms have opened in Balbriggan and Loughshinny?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Martina Mannion","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Martina Mannion Of the 7,860 people across the country who applied for places for September 2026, there will be a small percentage of those who were already in a special placement looking for an alternative special placement. We would have seen that as a net result because it did not require additional capacity to be created. Once they had the letter of eligibility, the SENO could work with them to get a place in a local special school closer to them, which would then free up a place in the special school or class they were coming from. We see this as very important as we are creating additional provision. It is helping."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Grace Boland My understanding is that under the 2024 review, special education inclusion on mainstream public transport had a target of 20%. What is the current status of that target?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally Sorry, could the Deputy repeat that question?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Grace Boland Rather than having children with special educational needs travelling in taxis when they do not need to, they could go on mainstream school transport buses. My understanding was there was a target of 20% in that regard. What are we currently at?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally That is a journey we have to go on. There are children on the mainstream-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Grace Boland It would help me if I knew what the starting percentage point of that journey was."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally Do we have the exact number, Ms Mulhall?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Grace Boland I find it very hard to meet a target if we do not know where we currently at."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally We have some information. I know the number of bus escorts on mainstream transport. Do we have an accurate number of children, Ms Mulhall?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Barbara Mulhall","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Barbara Mulhall Yes. There are around 80 to 100 on mainstream services at the moment."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Grace Boland Did the review not say we wanted to get 20%? Where we are we, percentage-wise?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Barbara Mulhall","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Barbara Mulhall There are between 80 and 100 at the moment-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Grace Boland That is the number of children but what does that equal in percentage terms? How is the Department tracking the progress on the review requirement if it does not know what the percentage is?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Barbara Mulhall","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Barbara Mulhall The review requirement made a recommendation for parents who wish for their children to travel on mainstream transport, either with or without the assistance of an escort. That is actually in the application form. We try to facilitate that for parents who want their child to travel on mainstream transport. That is the ambition of the-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Grace Boland I know, but I am struggling as regards how the Department is tracking whether it will deliver this if it does not know what the percentage is currently."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Barbara Mulhall","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Barbara Mulhall There are currently 24,400 children with special educational needs on transport. Around 80 to 100 would be on mainstream services at the moment."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Grace Boland I ask Mr. McCarthy to give me that figure as a percentage."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Seamus McCarthy It is 3%."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Grace Boland First, I think it is essential the Department know where it is, percentage-wise, if it is to have any hope of delivering the target. Second, that is very poor."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally It is complex, though."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Grace Boland I appreciate that but-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally We are talking about the most specialist group. A child is not eligible unless they have particular needs, so moving them from a customised-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Grace Boland That is not quite true. There are children going to reading schools, etc."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally They might not necessarily be eligible for specialist transport, just because they are going to a special school. It has to be that they have a need."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Grace Boland This is special education. It is not that they are all going to special schools. Some of them are going to special classes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally Yes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Grace Boland I know from children I know in my constituency that not all of them are at the highly complex level."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally Yes. Just because you are eligible for a special class or special school does not mean you are eligible for specialised school transport. The SENO has to determine there is a need, that this child cannot use mainstream transport. We are trying to get some of those children on to mainstream transport but they are children with more complex needs, some of whom might need bus escorts. There are about 50 bus escorts on mainstream-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Grace Boland I am not advocating for children who are not able for it but if the review set a target of 20%, I just do not understand why the Department would accept that if it does not think it is achievable or if Ms McNally is telling me children are not appropriate for it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally We are working towards it. We have work to do. We have done a pilot with one school and it has been very useful to look at what the appetite is among parents towards this move. A significant number of parents said that, yes, they would be willing to consider it but they want reassurance that their child will be safe on the mainstream service."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Grace Boland Absolutely. If this is not a realistic goal, it needs to be revisited."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Barbara Mulhall","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Barbara Mulhall That is why that pilot was done with the school in question. It was to see what is possible in the future. There are also people who may be attending special classes and mainstream classes and they are on the mainstream scheme but they apply through the mainstream scheme and do not disclose that they have a disability. We would not necessarily have sight of those because they do not want to disclose that information but, anecdotally-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Grace Boland I am not interested in giving the Department a hard time about not reaching a goal that is unreachable, but if it is not reachable, the Department needs to very clearly state that. Starting with the percentage would help. Has the Department modelled the cost of offering and providing free school transport for all children in this country? If so, how much would that cost?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally I will ask Mr. Clohessy to come in on that because the school transport review looked at this. There are cost implications-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Grace Boland Absolutely. I just want to get a sense of-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally -----and there are driver and vehicle availability issues as well."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Martin Clohessy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Martin Clohessy Around the school transport review, there are a number of things we are testing, such as e-ticketing, which came up a little earlier, and having special education children on mainstream transport. The primary issue in the pilots that have taken place so far are reducing the distance criteria and waiving the nearest school requirement. The Secretary General has already outlined the particular instance on one particular route where demand increased by in excess of 500%. We have to be really careful about how we model this because while that will not present in a standard way right across the system, we need to get a full assessment of what that would look like across the system. At present, we simply would not have the buses or drivers, let alone the money, to be able to support a service of that nature. We will have to consider the 2 km limit and nearest school waiver in great depth. On providing it to every child, with parental choice and with a child who can go to perhaps the third or fourth nearest school, the number of variables becomes exponential and would significantly increase the spend-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Grace Boland We are talking in the billions of euro if we are looking at this at the moment."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Martin Clohessy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Martin Clohessy That is fair to say."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally The integration with public service transport is an essential part of making the scheme sustainable."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Grace Boland I will finish with the Secretary General on this point. I note the integration with public transport, which is great, particularly in rural areas. I have a real issue in that the route 33 bus in my area, serving Balbriggan, Rush and Skerries, does not bring school children to meet the secondary school times, in particular. If there is anything the Secretary General can do with the Minister for Transport and the NTA to make sure public transport is serving school communities, I would really appreciate it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally I will pass that message on."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach As it is now after 12.30 p.m., we will take a short break."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an su\u00ed ar fionra\u00ed ar 12.37 p.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 12.56 p.m."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sitting suspended at 12.37 p.m. and resumed at 12.56 p.m."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I call our next questioner, Deputy Kenny."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Eoghan Kenny I welcome the witnesses from the Department of education and Bus \u00c9ireann. As the spokesperson for education for my party, I thank the Secretary General for the extraordinary amount of work that has been done within the education system. When good progress has been made, it should be recognised. Good progress has been made in all areas across education. There is a long way to go in ensuring that we have a perfect education system but I am confident that it is moving in the right direction. I want to begin with the shortfall that was in the 2025 appropriation account. What was originally allocated towards school transport was \u20ac382.7 million and the expenditure eventually was \u20ac478.7 million. That was an additional \u20ac96 million, or 25%. I presume that was particularly towards transport for those with special educational needs. The Secretary General might give some sort of clarification in that regard."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally I will ask my school transport colleagues to come in, but I thank the Deputy for recognising the extraordinary work that has been done and thank him for the confidence. We acknowledge that a huge amount has been achieved and there has been massive work by schools all around the country. Parents have worked with us, as have advocacy organisations. It has been a lot of hard work. A lot of people, our Ministers, etc., have done a huge amount. We have an ambition and a vision and we want to continue to deliver for children. We are really grateful for all the money that the Government has made available. Would Mr. Clohessy mind taking the question on the account?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Martin Clohessy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Martin Clohessy I thank the Deputy. The trajectory has been increasing with the number of children, particularly children with special needs, coming onto the service. Year on year, we have seen an increase in the number of special education learners but also the number of bus escorts, and there has obviously been an accompanying increase in fuel costs and inflation right the way across the system. Colleagues on the Bus \u00c9ireann side have indicated that there have been increases in costs. They are managing them proactively, but those costs are presenting. It is something that we are very conscious of to try to manage into the future."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Eoghan Kenny I appreciate that. There have been overruns. Making accommodations has contributed to that, as has the soaring cost of fuel. On the cost of providing the services, with expenditure approaching \u20ac600 million, what proportion goes directly to private transport operators, what proportion goes towards Bus \u00c9ireann - Bus \u00c9ireann's own vehicles and drivers - and what proportion is spent on administration?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally I might again start that answer and my colleagues might come in. Under the accounting arrangements that are in place, Bus \u00c9ireann cannot provide more than 10% of the routes, so it never does. We strictly follow that rule. We use Bus \u00c9ireann predominantly for areas where there might be market failure. The vast majority is procured from and provided by private contractors - well over 90%. With regards to the charge that we pay Bus \u00c9ireann, there are rules on that going back many years under the 1975 accounting arrangements. Originally, those accounting arrangements said that Bus \u00c9ireann could charge 13% as an administrative overhead. At this point in time, it is charging approximately 2.5% because we changed that rule very significantly. Last year, we gave Bus \u00c9ireann about \u20ac15 million for its administrative overhead, and we have very strict accounting arrangements in place for that. In 2018 and 2019, we brought in an external person to look at what costs it could charge to us, both direct and indirect. Ms Flynn, for example, works full time on school transport, so her salary might be invoiced to us. We then looked at what else across Bus \u00c9ireann could be partially apportioned to us. There is a strict methodology for that. We have gone out to tender for somebody to review it, and we hope to sign a contract in the next couple of weeks. We monitor this carefully to make sure that we are following the rules and that we are getting value for money for the Exchequer. We can provide more details."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Eoghan Kenny I am happy with that. Our understanding is that eligible children receive their bus places and might use them for the first two or three weeks of the school year, and then suddenly no longer use it. Meanwhile, non-concessionary children who have looked for a bus place have not received one, because concessionary tickets have been given to children who then stop using them after the first two or three weeks. Can the Department come up with a mechanism, or is there already one in place, to identify children who have been given concessionary tickets but are no longer using them after the first couple of weeks of the school year and to take the tickets off them, though said in a nicer way than that, and give it to another child who was not concessionary to start with but maybe will use it?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally It is our ambition to get to a stage where we will be able to do that. Some of that is happening already and we are taking action in that regard. For example, as another Deputy spoke of earlier, the reintroduction of the fees at 2021-22 levels will make parents think about whether they really want to pay for a ticket. When the tickets were cheaper, parents might have decided they would get that ticket just in case they needed it for a rainy day, but then did not use it. The reintroduction of the fees might reduce the number who were not using the service much. Some 25% of children will still travel free and for the others the service is heavily subsidised. We have also written to parents to say these tickets are quite precious and to please not apply for one and pay unless they are going to use it. We have issued communications in that regard. Bus \u00c9ireann might answer this, but I think that if somebody wants to hand a ticket back, Bus \u00c9ireann will try to give the seat to somebody else. There is a lot of action, but the technological solution we are developing and the technology we have tried, tested and learned from will help us with that. Mr. Clohessy may want to add to that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Martin Clohessy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Martin Clohessy That is fair. It is quite nuanced. We have run a couple of pilots, one in the Kells area, and we recently ran a pilot with U-TRAC devices on 44 separate routes. The information we have analysed is quite interesting, and we will publish it as part of the overall pilot evaluation. We find that utilisation rates vary from day to day, week to week and route to route, so it is more nuanced than a child simply not using the service. Some children might use it in the morning but not in the afternoon. At times, particularly at post-primary level, there are after-school activities. Those are the kinds of things we need to get into. As the Secretary General outlined, we need a technological solution to get to the bottom of it. The indicative information we are getting back from the pilot is useful and informative, and suggests that the situation is not as straightforward as it might seem, with people simply not using the service at all."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Eoghan Kenny That is an important part of it and progress is being made. However, as TDs, we get calls saying people know other people down the road are not using their tickets, which they have been given, but their own child has not got a ticket because he is non-concessionary, but he would use the bus every day if he could get it. I have two further questions, one on school transport and one other. I was reading a reply to a parliamentary question submitted by another TD. Bus \u00c9ireann refused to disclose the average contract cost by vehicle size, citing commercial sensitivity. Can it furnish the committee with the average contract cost per vehicle category?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom Delaney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Tom Delaney I will work off the latest figures we have, for 2026. These are what we call the daily rate per vehicle that we pay. The largest vehicle, a double-decker, costs \u20ac459-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Eoghan Kenny Per day?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom Delaney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Tom Delaney Per day. It then goes right down to taxis, at \u20ac246 per day. I can give the individual figures if the Deputy needs them."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Eoghan Kenny A taxi carrying one child would get \u20ac246 per day."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom Delaney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Tom Delaney On average. That is the average across all of the more than 3,000 taxis operating in the Bus \u00c9ireann subcontracted fleet. I have figures for the other categories if the Deputy needs them, but I am giving the range-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Eoghan Kenny That is the range from the highest down to taxi level."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom Delaney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Tom Delaney Those figures are aggregated across all counties. They are not specific to any one county."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Eoghan Kenny It is an average cost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom Delaney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Tom Delaney It is an average of everything across Ireland."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Eoghan Kenny This is a \"Yes\" or \"No\" question for Ms McNally and Mr. Delaney. Do they believe that is value for money?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally If I may come in here, special educational needs transport is very customised. For example, a child might want to go to a special school for the deaf even though it is a very long way away."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Eoghan Kenny I have a cousin who is doing that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally Sometimes, there are long journeys and long hours because of the need. It is a door-to-door service, and sometimes it includes bus escorts. These are expensive services, but these are children who would not otherwise access an education, which is their legal right. It is costly. We have said publicly that while the average cost for a child in mainstream is about \u20ac1,480, for a child with special educational needs it is \u20ac14,000. That is the average. However, we are looking at this."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Eoghan Kenny If the Chair indulges me for 30 seconds, I will ask Ms Mannion a quick question. We are all receiving emails about the assessment of needs category and how places will be allocated if the assessment of need criteria are removed. Will Ms Mannion take 30 seconds to speak on that?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Martina Mannion","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Martina Mannion I think the Deputy is talking about removing diagnosis as a requirement for access to a specialist placement."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Eoghan Kenny Or whether teachers would have to make that diagnosis."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Martina Mannion","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Martina Mannion I am glad to clarify this. First, we are looking to remove all barriers to children accessing supports. No decision has been made about this. What we were looking to do was to trial, in a safe and secure way, with a small number of children and families who already have access to a special school or class placement, whether there was a better way that would remove the barriers and allow those children to access the placements if they did not have a diagnosis. This builds on something we have been doing since 2017. A diagnosis is no longer needed to access mainstream supports. It is not needed for the summer programme or for an SNA. The last cohort of children for whom a professional recommendation is required is children in special schools and classes. We recognise the importance of a diagnosis for an individual parent and family and nothing we are doing here takes away from that. We are asking whether there is a better, fairer way, removing the barriers for children so that they can access those placements. We are genuinely not asking teachers to do anything at this point. We are asking stakeholders to work with us on a small-scale proof of concept that would allow us to see what might be involved in a better, safer way to meet the needs of children. That would show how long it might take, the resources and time it might take, and the impact on parents, schools and children. That is what we want to do. It is to remove any remaining barriers to children accessing places, alongside increasing provision."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Aidan Farrelly I thank everyone for being here. I echo much of what my colleagues have said in support and encouragement of the work the witnesses are doing in their respective agencies and roles. Notwithstanding that, it has been noted already that there are significant structural challenges, specifically with school transport. As public representatives, we can nearly put into our work plans that, at this time of the year, just as there will be a trolley crisis in the winter, there will be a school transport crisis. That is what it feels like to the families affected. It is a crisis because the knock-on effects for what their normal day will look like, depending on whether they have a school bus ticket, are really significant. Is Ms McNally confident that the Department has received a budget allocation for 2027 that will not require Revised or Supplementary Estimates and that it has sufficient funding to deliver its work programme in 2027?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally I am very hopeful that that is the case. We have received a significant budget across the whole Vote, including for special education and school transport, so we are hopeful. However, a lot of our services are demand-led. Most of it is entirely predictable. Our forecasts over the years have proven to be really good. We are very good at forecasting. I can never say 100% that yes, we will be okay but we are hopeful."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Aidan Farrelly We are unlikely to be here this time next year with a significant overspend or overrun in the same way as the last few years."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally I would absolutely hope so but we cannot completely and utterly control that. On the special education side the NCSE is still working through the parent notify numbers that have come through so we do not have final numbers there yet. We are very grateful to the Government. We worked really collaboratively with the Department of public expenditure and reform and we got \u20ac3.8 billion for special education in 2027, which is very significant. On the school transport side we have \u20ac687 million next year, which is also very significant."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Aidan Farrelly I want to get into the weeds a bit. Does the Department receive funding per academic year or per calendar year for the school transport? How does it work?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Martin Clohessy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Martin Clohessy We receive it per calendar year."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Aidan Farrelly How much has the Department been allocated to run school transport for 2027?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Martin Clohessy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Martin Clohessy A sum of \u20ac687 million."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Aidan Farrelly How much does the Department expect it will cost to run it?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Martin Clohessy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Martin Clohessy Based on current projections we feel that we will live within that allocation and we should be able to provide the services that are required based on the scheme that is in place for the \u20ac687 million."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Aidan Farrelly What has changed then? In the past three or four years there have been significant overruns. Has the Department received a significant increase in funding? Has the Department finally acknowledged that this is what it costs or are we budgeting better? Why will we come in on target this year?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Martin Clohessy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Martin Clohessy There are a few elements. We have the parents notify now, which colleagues on the special education side have put in place, so we are getting earlier visibility of the numbers of special education children that are presenting. We are able to extrapolate from that how much it will cost in relation to special education transport. There are other bits too. The restoration of fees will help to manage particularly where people might have been getting a ticket but did not always need to use it. It will now be ring-fenced for the people who need it. We work very closely with colleagues on the Bus \u00c9ireann side around contractor costs to make sure we have good early visibility of what they look like. We acknowledge it is demand led. If circumstances were to change in some way that we cannot currently pre-empt, there may be some variation but from our perspective we are sufficiently well funded for 2027."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally If I could make an important clarification as a colleague has just reminded me. We hope we have enough funding next year. Clearly the pay talks are ongoing. A certain amount has been put into our budget for next year and if it is more than that we will require a supplementary."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Aidan Farrelly Of course. I was not talking about that at all but I appreciate the clarification. The Department has allocated \u20ac687 million to run the scheme. What percentage of that will Bus \u00c9ireann receive? Does it receive the full \u20ac687 million to administer the programme in 2027?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Jean O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Jean O'Sullivan I will not be able to answer that question fully but I am happy to come back."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom Delaney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Tom Delaney We have budgeted for next year a figure of \u20ac557 million, which we have provided to the Department. That is with the fees as they are at the moment notwithstanding the comment from the Department of education. We have to budget everything as is."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Aidan Farrelly How do we get from \u20ac687 million to \u20ac557 million?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Martin Clohessy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Martin Clohessy I will take that. We have other costs that we meet such as the cost of school bus escorts, the cost of grants to students where we are not in a position to put the services in place. While the substantial amount of the moneys that school transport costs goes to Bus \u00c9ireann, it is not 100%."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Aidan Farrelly Fair enough. I thank Mr. Clohessy. Of the \u20ac557 million, what is the sum that goes directly to service providers?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom Delaney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Tom Delaney To answer for the year 2025, 91% of our cost for 2025 went to subcontractors. Roughly 4% to 5% was on delivery of our own services and, to the earlier comments by the Department, between 3% and 5% was on the administration of the scheme."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Aidan Farrelly That is 3% to 5% for administration and the other 5%-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom Delaney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Tom Delaney We provide a certain amount of services ourselves."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Aidan Farrelly Okay. What does the 3% to 5% of administrative costs look like in terms of human resources? How many people are on the school transport team for Bus \u00c9ireann?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom Delaney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Tom Delaney I will ask Ms Flynn to answer on the direct part of it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Miriam Flynn","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Miriam Flynn In the region of 300 are fully deployed on school transport. That includes our drivers, supervisors and our clerical and executive teams that operate across 11 or 12 locations around the country. We also have 11 employees as part of the school transport management charge at different functional levels that are fully allocated to supporting the business. Based on the scale of procurement, a significant portion of that relates to the procurement of resources that we have dedicated in the area, which is extremely vast. We had about 40 that are full time equivalent from our indirect charge but they are really allocations of people who support the scheme in different capacities across the functions in the business."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Aidan Farrelly Can we home in very specifically on people who deal with applications, front-facing communications either with families or public representatives or the logistical side of the tendering piece, which is to say nothing to do with the routes Bus \u00c9ireann runs? I imagine there is a school transport office. How many people look after the allocation of tickets and the customer service side of that?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Miriam Flynn","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Miriam Flynn We have in the region of 90 administration staff who work on those areas and we have a further 49 supervisors. They work very closely together. They work hand-in-hand in assessing applications, trying to determine what the optimum transport solution is and subsequently ensuring those tickets are allocated to people who are eligible under the scheme."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Aidan Farrelly Let us round that up to 150. There is 90 and 49. Is that their full time, year-round, only job? They are not seconded for three months at a time and then they go back to previous roles. Their only focus is school transport."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Miriam Flynn","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Miriam Flynn That is correct."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Aidan Farrelly Has it always been that way?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Miriam Flynn","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Miriam Flynn It absolutely has. We have 11 regional offices and they deal exclusively with school transport. For context, we start planning our school year now for next year. Our CFO has outlined the scale of our procurement. We are already looking at the routes that will need to go to tender next year. We are already starting planning for the routes that will go to procurement. We are looking at opening our portal in February. From February until May applications come in. This year we looked at making some improvements by offering one application and payment deadline but it was causing some confusion for customers originally. In conjunction with the Department, we found an improvement in mainstream applications in particular. Once it comes to May we are scheduling, assessing capacity on routes and trying to determine where we need additional capacity for pupils who are eligible under the scheme. Following from that, we have to procure the additional services as required. We are dealing with special educational needs programmes. The other growth area we have seen in particular over the last couple of years is the summer programme for children with special educational needs. That has gone from 6,000 to over 11,000 children in the last couple of years. Again, that involves huge logistics and planning from the team to arrange that during the summer period in addition to working with over 6,500 new applications for special education needs. It really is an all round operation because every day we have to-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Aidan Farrelly That is really reassuring. I thank Ms Flynn."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally Can I come in there? I was going to give the Deputy the breakdown of that number as well. It is something we look at on a monthly basis and we have meetings every six months to go into a huge amount of detail on that administrative overhead. It does get a huge amount of scrutiny."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Aidan Farrelly If the Chair will allow me to squeeze in one more question, Kildare is not unique but there is a context in Kildare which I think will also affect Wicklow, Meath and any significant urban populations where there is significant population growth. Eligibility criteria mean that if I cannot get a place in my closest school I have to go to a school that is further away but which pushes me out of the eligibility criteria. There have been people in my area this year who have lost out on a school ticket because they were unable to get the closest school place to them."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally The rules are the distance rule and then the nearest school but if your nearest school is full, if you have a letter that shows you applied and it is full you are then eligible for the next nearest school."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Aidan Farrelly Is it the next nearest school or the school of one's choice after that?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally No, the next nearest school and if it is full, one can go to the next nearest and the next nearest so one remains eligible. If one has to go further and further, one remains eligible if those schools are full. It is not one's fault that those schools are full so one remains eligible, but there has to be some containment."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Aidan Farrelly Does there?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally The school transport review says that we should drop the nearest or next nearest approach so it is policy that we should do that. Clearly if we do that, there will be increased demand. It is also more difficult for Mr. Loftus to do his job in terms of planning for local school need in the community if parents are going further afield all the time. It is harder to plan for provision but nonetheless-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Aidan Farrelly But not by choice. I do not think the demand piece will come because it is not an issue of choice. I completely accept if people choose to go to a school that is 40 minutes away-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally If the school is full, one is entitled to the next nearest school."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Every year, one can set one's watch and one's calendar by it. Come August and September, the e-mails and phone calls start coming in. Children apply and get tickets, either concessionary or non-concessionary, or are unsuccessful. Many get tickets only to find out that the route they were on during the previous year does not have a driver and the operator has pulled out, causing chaos and mayhem. How many children have received tickets for this year and their parents have paid, only to subsequently discover that there is no bus or the operator has pulled out at the start of the school year?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally I will ask Bus \u00c9ireann to come in on the specifics. All eligible children on mainstream who applied and paid on time have a service at the moment. At the beginning of the year, there were two routes in Wicklow where the children were eligible - they had paid and applied on time - but the routes were not available when schools opened. That is very regrettable but by the end of September they were available."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach So only two routes nationally-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally Yes, at the beginning of September."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach And both of them were in Wicklow."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally Special education is slightly different because in special education, we are still receiving 80 applications per week. There are some children in special education who are still waiting because genuinely, it does - not unreasonably - take Bus \u00c9ireann a few weeks."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach How many children in special education do we have figures on?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally Of the children from last year who were known to us who were there last year, 33 do not yet have a service. That number is a few days old at this stage but Bus \u00c9ireann is working really hard on that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach That is a real failure."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally As we talked about earlier, the special educational needs service is very customised. Bus \u00c9ireann tries really hard but there is not always driver or vehicle availability and it has to go through procurement. A total of 33 who had a service last year were delayed in accessing services."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I want to go back to the two routes in Wicklow. In previous years, it has been more widespread. I think the witnesses would have to acknowledge that. What is the reason for that? Why was there no bus operator for the routes this year?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Miriam Flynn","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Miriam Flynn It was actually one route in Wicklow. We had one route in Galway on the mainstream side. To clarify, the route in Galway was only off for about a day or two. We managed to get the service back up and running again within 24 hours. Unfortunately, on the Wicklow side, it was an operational issue that we were advised about at short notice with no driver. The local teams endeavoured to try to ensure they could get cover as soon as possible. We were very conscious that there were probably far more children last year at the start of the school year. We had 29 vehicles last year in mainstream where there was no service at the start of the school year. We have worked very hard with the Department in terms of our planning for mainstream applications. We have worked very hard in terms of our planning period and bringing it back to 8 May to allow us a bit more time to try to get those resources in place. All mainstream services are operating currently."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach So there are no pupils in receipt of an interim grant or any other form of-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Miriam Flynn","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Miriam Flynn At present, no."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Obviously there is the ongoing issue of driver shortage across the board. How is that impacting the service and what measures are being taken? I know some interim measures have been taken to increase the age limit to 72 for smaller vehicles. Why is it only for smaller vehicles? Why has it not been increased for larger vehicles, where the age limit remains at 70? Correct me if I am wrong. What is the rationale for that?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally I will come in first and Bus \u00c9ireann might come in on the age limit of 70. For us, the shortage of drivers is not as bad as it was but it remains an issue. We are working very closely with the Department of Transport, which has launched a major initiative to attract more drivers. We have done some local work with our ETBs to encourage them to do more in the further education space. It is something that, nationally, the Department of Transport is working on. We have a couple of actions under its recently published action plan to assist with that. I will hand over to Ms O'Sullivan on the over-70s rule."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Jean O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Jean O'Sullivan The over-70s issue is something that comes up all of the time. In partnership with the Department of education, we agreed to have an independent survey done, which was commissioned by the Department of Transport via the RSA using Professor Desmond O'Neill, who is an expert on older people in terms of the risks related to driving. Our board had a good detailed account of that particular report. There are significant safety issues regarding-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach On that point, safety concerns have always been cited. Absolutely, children's safely has to be paramount. This metric or rule is being used for school buses. An operator can come into the same school that has stopped anyone over the age of 70 driving a larger vehicle, get the kids and bring them off to a swimming lesson or an excursion and that bus driver could be over 70. Safety risks are cited as a metric but those safety risks do not apply with the same operator or a different operator and a driver over the age of 70 who is obviously fit and able to come in, drive a larger bus and bring the kids off to a swimming lesson. What is the Department's view on that? Surely that makes no sense whatsoever."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally Bus \u00c9ireann administers the scheme on our behalf and this is a rule it has representing that research evidence."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Surely that makes a mockery of that rule."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Jean O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Jean O'Sullivan Our policy is the Bus \u00c9ireann policy for school transport. We take it seriously with regard to the safety piece. It is informed by Professor O'Neill's views in terms of a published report that was previously given to this committee. On a pilot basis, the board and the executive have looked at over-70s up to the age of 72 on smaller vehicles. In the report-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Would it not make sense for that to be extended for anyone over the age of 70 for all vehicles once the person meets the criteria after an assessment and ability test every year? Would that not make sense?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Jean O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Jean O'Sullivan Not based on the evidence suggested in the report. Professor O'Neill has done considerable work in terms of talking to all of the experts within the field in determining that report. The issues that arise with over-70s in terms of driving a vehicle with children concern response rates. If something happens on that vehicle with children, the only other adult on the vehicle is the driver. There are serious concerns-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach The same applies to the same driver possibly driving the same children to a swimming lesson."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Jean O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Jean O'Sullivan I totally appreciate that but it is not under our policy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I will move on, but it is an issue for the Department along with the Department of Transport. I will move on to the issue of special needs pupils, specifically, the cost of taxis. A figure of \u20ac143 million was given for the provision of taxis in 2025. Am I right in saying that? What percentage of the overall school transport cost is that? Is it 20% or 22%? Do we have those figures? When the witnesses are getting that, they might be able to give us the figure for how many taxis were involved. I think a figure of 2,000 was given earlier."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Jean O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Jean O'Sullivan It is 3,000. There are 3,000 taxis, of which 740 are for single-use."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Some 740 are single-use. Okay. What is the longest distance an SEN pupil is travelling in a taxi?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Jean O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Jean O'Sullivan There is a child with a lengthy journey whom we spoke about earlier."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom Delaney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Tom Delaney One is travelling more than 300 km. It is somewhere around 330 km per day."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach How many pupils are in that? One."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally I do not know about the individual circumstance, so I could be wrong, but we know some of the very long distances are associated with the school for the deaf. These are circumstances where children and families choose to attend a very specialist place. Again, I do not know about that individual child; I am just speaking generally."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I do not want to get into individual circumstances or cases but I am interested. There is a round journey of more than 300 km and I am aware of one case where the pupil has to travel two hours in each direction. That could be the same case; I am not quite sure."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally As the Cathaoirleach knows, by us increasing the number of special schools and special classes, we are going to reduce that over time."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I get that, but I am worried about the here and now, the cost to the taxpayer and the Exchequer, and, obviously, about whether it is the best fit for the pupil. From my experience speaking to families and kids, they want to be in the local area. It is the failure of successive Governments over many years to put those localised educational requirements-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally We are doing it now and I know the Cathaoirleach accepts that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach You are doing it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally The other thing is that the parents notify system allows parents to apply to switch."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Regarding the case we were talking about, with the 330 km round trip, is there a transport escort?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom Delaney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Tom Delaney I assume so. I will have to check that but I presume there is."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Jean O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Jean O'Sullivan We do not provide the escort, so we would have to check that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Okay."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally There may not be. Individual children have very different needs. A bus escort is only used when it is required."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Regarding that particular case, how much does it cost to provide that taxi service? Do we have that figure?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom Delaney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Tom Delaney That is a very specific service. It costs in excess of \u20ac109,000 per year."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Okay, and possibly the cost of an escort on top of that. The witnesses can see the concerns there, both in terms of the failure to the student, and also the huge financial cost to the taxpayer. It is quite concerning."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom Delaney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Tom Delaney To answer the Cathaoirleach\u2019s previous question, Bus \u00c9ireann\u2019s figures for 2025 show that 27% of our total costs for school transport related to taxis."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Do we have an overall cost for the transport escorts or bus escorts?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally We do."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach What is the overall cost?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom Delaney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Tom Delaney It is just north of \u20ac80 million for 2026 and projected to be \u20ac90 million for 2027."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally That is more than 5,700 bus escorts. Of 24,400 children who were on special educational transport, more than 5,000 had a bus escort."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Does the Department feel that is an efficient use of resources? I hear what the witnesses are saying in terms of what is going in now, but does the Department view that as an efficient use of badly-needed resources?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally First and foremost, our responsibility is to meet the constitutional rights of children to an education. Giving children access to education is our responsibility. After that, we absolutely want to do it in the best, most efficient way possible. Are those costs acceptable? No. That is why we are doing so much. The Deputies have acknowledged what has been done. We have doubled the number of special classes since 2020. There are 20 new special schools. We are working to change the situation but, as I said, some of it is going to take time to work through. We will reduce those costs."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Correct me if I am wrong but it seems Ms McNally is saying there has been, and reading between the lines there has been, extensive analysis carried out on providing adequate special classes, which is, and has to be, paramount. There is huge demand there. I am conscious of many parents not able to get a place for their child in any class who are forced into situations such as this. That certainly fails everybody. What analysis has been conducted on how providing adequate special classes in local areas could reduce the need for private taxis and costs?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally That is the whole objective. It is absolutely the objective."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Has there been a stand-alone analysis carried out on it?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally What we are looking at is \u2013 Ms Mannion might want to come in on this - what the special education prevalence is and how it is growing. We were down at one point something percent and grew to 2%. We were at 3.2% and we are now at 3.5% or 3.6% and it could go to 5%. Mr. Loftus and Ms Mannion work really closely to increase special provision. Approximately 75% of post-primary schools have special classes, with more planned. We have 1,300 very small primary schools and we cannot say we will have a special class in every single one of them within the next couple of years but we are targeting every primary school with eight classes or more. A huge amount of work has been done to plan to have as much specialist provision locally as can be delivered. Ms Mannion may wish to come in on this."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Martina Mannion","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Martina Mannion We actually spent a considerable period of time in 2022 looking at how to provide the scale of special education provision. Ms McNally spoke about moving up to 3.6%. Internationally, approximately 5% of provision is in specialist placements, so we are trying to increase the provision all the time. When we looked at this, we were able to see not just on a national level - we actually broke it down by school planning area because there are variations across the country - whether families prefer special classes over special schools. We have tried to be more targeted in our response. Our circulars and information sent out to schools in recent years talked about targeting those schools with eight classes or more which have no special classes. That is because those are large areas where the children live. In other times, there would have been smaller schools, perhaps outside the town, that offered to open a special class. We went back to those and that is how we massively increased the numbers. If we look at a school with eight classes or more, that is where the children are in those towns. If we open the class in that school in the town, we ensure those children get local provision. The parents notify information has been hugely valuable. We have opened 71 inclusive special classes for children already in those schools, which meant those children did not need to leave the school to go to an alternative provision and thus it avoided incurring special education school transport costs. We are coming at this not just at a national level, but at a local school planning area level. Those 71 inclusive classes this year have been very important."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Finally before I allow my colleagues back in, we are talking about children who have been lucky enough, if that is the right word, to get a place. We know some parents are forced to take legal cases against the Department to vindicate their right for their children to receive appropriate education, something they are legally entitled to. In June, we got correspondence provided by the Department that showed that \u20ac2.043 million had been spent since 2022 on legal costs and court settlements in cases involving families seeking appropriate school places for their children. That included \u20ac567,000 in 2022, \u20ac399,000 in 2023, \u20ac661,000 in 2024, \u20ac251,000 in 2025, and up to that point in 2026 it was \u20ac165,000. We were told there were 17 pre-litigation cases in 2022. In 2025 that jumped to 163. Can we get updated figures in relation to pre-litigation and-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally I will ask Ms Mannion to come in but before she comes in I really have to send a strong message to parents that we are absolutely committed to making special class places available for children. Ms Mannion will come in with the numbers but, honestly, cases do not progress because we resolve them and we are able to show parents that there are places. We have 800 places in special classes available at the moment. We are meeting the need. When it is identified, we are meeting the need. Some parents - and I have absolute empathy and sympathy for them - take a case because they are really worried. What I would say to them is that we have doubled the numbers. The committee has heard all of this. I would ask them to please talk to their local SENO."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach They would say the only reason it is resolved is because they have taken legal action."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally And I would say that is not the case."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Martina Mannion","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Martina Mannion We have been very clear with parents but we have also been very clear in our defence in these cases before the courts. That is 100% not the case. On the delivery of the provision, we talked about the planning a little earlier. That is what is giving the number of places. There are 800 vacancies across the country as of today. In answer to the Cathaoirleach's specific questions-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Can we get the figures?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Martina Mannion","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Martina Mannion Yes. The legal costs paid to date in 2026 come to \u20ac333,000 and there are 98 pre-litigation matters on hand. These are a mixture of matters relating to school places and other special education litigation matters. To repeat, none of those cases have proceeding to a hearing. We have worked with the families to resolve them. There are places available. You do not need to take a court case to get a place."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach How many cases have been initiated that specifically relate to the September 2026 enrolment?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Martina Mannion","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Martina Mannion There are 65 judicial review cases that relate to school places."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach That is for 2026."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Martina Mannion","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Martina Mannion Yes, there are currently 65."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I thank Ms Mannion for that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Martina Mannion","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Martina Mannion I am just saying that places are available. We are trying to work with those families to support them into those existing places."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Unfortunately, it is the experience of many families that the only way they see to vindicate their rights is to take-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Martina Mannion","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Martina Mannion The vacancies are there."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally That is why I would encourage families to talk to their local SENO as early as possible. The places are there."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I propose to again open up the discussion to my colleagues for a shorter round of supplementary questions if that is okay with all of our witnesses. I call Deputy Bennett, who has five minutes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett I will go back to what Ms McNally said about every child having a constitutional right to education. Will she explain that to me? I do not think I got it. On the eligibility criteria, why would somebody not be eligible?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally Every child has a constitutional right to an education. That is a fact. The school transport scheme is a slightly separate matter. This scheme is operated. There is no constitutional right to a school transport scheme. It was deemed that it had to be within reason. Back then, it was decided that 3.2 km for a primary school child and 4.8 km for a post-primary school child would be the eligibility rules. It also had to be the nearest school."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett I know people in Monaghan who live outside the parameters of this 4.8 km. They actually live further away than that. Why are they not eligible?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally If they live further away than that, they are eligible."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett They had their money returned. They paid for the tickets before the date and-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally It may be the case that they are not going to their nearest school. It must be that their nearest school has places."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett How many applications have been refused in Monaghan? How many of those who applied for tickets did not get one?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally I will check whether Bus \u00c9ireann has that number but, to be clear, it is only non-eligible children who have not got a seat. Non-eligible children can apply and pay their money."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett These children were eligible and then got a response and had their money refunded. I am just wondering why that happened."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally Would Ms Mulhall like to come in on that?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Barbara Mulhall","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Barbara Mulhall Where there is capacity and where there are vehicles, all eligible children have a place on a school transport vehicle. We will certainly look into any cases the Deputy has on hand, but there-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett That is okay. Is it Ms Mulhall I should come back to on that? I will email her details of the cases."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Barbara Mulhall","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Barbara Mulhall Yes, it is. However, we can categorically say that all eligible children have a space, where capacity is available."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally Could this relate to the rule about there being fewer than ten children?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Barbara Mulhall","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Barbara Mulhall There must be more than ten in a distinct locality before a service can be established."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett If a bus is already full, is another bus put on?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Barbara Mulhall","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Barbara Mulhall If there are eligible children, all eligible children are facilitated first."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett I will bring Ms Mulhall details of the case. On the distance, how far from a school will a bus go? What is the biggest distance?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Barbara Mulhall","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Barbara Mulhall Bus \u00c9ireann might be able to assist with that question. The mainstream buses may go to more than one school. They would have certain pick-up points along the route. A bus could go to a primary and a post-primary centre that facilitates a number of schools. We might not have details of the distance travelled. I do not know. Does Ms Flynn have any detail on that?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Miriam Flynn","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Miriam Flynn With regard to mainstream transport in particular, the routes are planned based on the number of eligible pupils presenting. There are clearly defined guidelines issued by the Department. Where possible, we try to ensure that people get services within a certain distance of a pick-up point. As I have said, the routes are primarily designed around eligible pupils. They do vary. On Ms Mulhall's point, where possible, we try to ensure our vehicles operate both a primary and post-primary service. That is to try to ensure we optimise the use of the resources we have. The distances can vary. It is quite difficult to give a unified answer."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally To be clear, the remote area grant is available to some families if there is no service."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett I am sorry. What was that called?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally It is the remote area grant. It applies where there is no service. This is a result of the rules. Again, there has to be ten children in an area to be serviced by a route. If we cannot provide a service but a child is eligible, the family can get a remote area grant."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett Will you get a remote area grant if there are no buses in the area? How much of a grant do you get?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally It is a daily rate with a maximum per week."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett What do the families use that for if there are no buses or public transport?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally It can be used to cover parental costs or some other arrangements they make."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett I will move on from those questions. Can I have clarity on the total income that Bus \u00c9ireann receives from the Department?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally There are two elements. Again, Bus \u00c9ireann may come in on this. There is the administrative charge and then there is the charge for its services. The administrative charge in 2025 was \u20ac15.2 million."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett It was \u20ac15.2 million. What was the charge for the school transport service?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom Delaney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Tom Delaney It was approximately \u20ac457 million."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett It was \u20ac457 million but that is going up to \u20ac641 million this year. Am I correct in that?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom Delaney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Tom Delaney That was in 2025."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett That was in 2025. What is going up to in 2027?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom Delaney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Tom Delaney It will be \u20ac557 million."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett It will be \u20ac557 million."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom Delaney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Tom Delaney To be clear, that is based on Bus \u00c9ireann's numbers."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett Am I correct that the total income will be \u20ac641 million?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally The total transport budget for the Department and Bus \u00c9ireann in 2027 is currently \u20ac687 million."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett How much income does Bus \u00c9ireann take in outside of the school transport scheme?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom Delaney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Tom Delaney Our total revenue for this year will be just under \u20ac900 million."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett It therefore takes in two thirds more."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom Delaney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Tom Delaney It is \u20ac457 million out of \u20ac900 million. It is basically half the figure, so about two thirds."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett Two thirds of Bus \u00c9ireann's income comes from school transport."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Seamus McCarthy I think we are mixing up the years."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom Delaney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Tom Delaney I am referring to this year. This year, 2026, our turnover should be in the region of just under \u20ac900 million."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally In 2026, our whole budget is \u20ac641 million. Bus \u00c9ireann only gets some of that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom Delaney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Tom Delaney I apologise to the Deputy. If I may clarify, our revenue in 2025 was about \u20ac770 million, of which \u20ac457 million related to school transport. I am sorry. I was crossing three different years in addressing the question."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett The school transport scheme still accounts for two thirds of Bus \u00c9ireann's income, however. Is that correct?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom Delaney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Tom Delaney If you were to get into it, you could say it is two thirds of our gross funding. However, we are obviously not completely funded. We have some-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett If Bus \u00c9ireann lost that contract, it would be gone."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom Delaney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Tom Delaney To be clear, 91% of it goes to subcontractors, as we talked about earlier."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett Two thirds of Bus \u00c9ireann's income comes from the Department, however."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom Delaney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Tom Delaney As the Deputy says it, yes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally It is probably important to say that Bus \u00c9ireann provides this service for us on a cost-recovery basis only. It is not for profit. The other arm of its business has a different commercial arrangement."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett I mentioned salaries in Bus \u00c9ireann earlier on. There seems to be great salaries in Bus \u00c9ireann. I am again bringing it back to the fact that the Department is paying two thirds of the salaries in Bus \u00c9ireann. We would also have travel-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally As I mentioned earlier, we have an apportionment. It is agreed under the accounting arrangements we have in place. The proportion of Bus \u00c9ireann's other costs we pay was independently and externally decided. We pay an independently agreed proportion of other costs."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett That is fine. I have noticed that, in her package, Ms O'Sullivan also got an electric car valued at \u20ac65,000. Is that correct?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Jean O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Jean O'Sullivan I do not think it is valued at \u20ac65,000. It is one of the fleet cars used by the whole business. I have the same car as the supervisors."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett It is the same car used by all of Bus \u00c9ireann."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Jean O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Jean O'Sullivan Anybody who needs a fleet car in Bus \u00c9ireann, for example, supervisors and other members, because they are out on the road with-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett How many fleet cars are on the road?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms. Jean O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms. Jean O'Sullivan Between our supervisors, mechanics and vehicles, I am not quite sure."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett Does Bus \u00c9ireann supply all of those employees with cars?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Jean O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Jean O'Sullivan If they need a car for work. I refer, for example, to a supervisor who needs to be on the road supervising. In schools, for example, our supervisors would have fleet vehicles. They have to be able to meet all of the 11,500 contractors around the country to evaluate who is on the bus, whether the bus-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett Where are those cars parked? Do the employees, including Ms O'Sullivan, keep the car at home?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Jean O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Jean O'Sullivan I keep my car and I pay benefit-in-kind on it. The other cars are fleet cars. They are typically parked up-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett Could Ms O'Sullivan remind me of the number of fleet cars?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Jean O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Jean O'Sullivan The fleet cars are work cars. They are used for work business. My car-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett I know they are fleet cars, but two thirds of Bus \u00c9ireann's income comes from the Department."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Jean O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Jean O'Sullivan Two thirds or 91% of Bus \u00c9ireann's income is paid out by Bus \u00c9ireann. It does not come to Bus \u00c9ireann. It is a mechanism to administer the payment to other people. We do not receive that payment. The payment that we receive is the \u20ac15 million. We are a conduit for the other payments to be procured in tender processes. Some 91% of that figure does not reside within Bus \u00c9ireann. It resides within a mechanism for us to pay the contractors to deliver the backbone of the service we spoke about earlier. It is not our funding."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Ms O'Sullivan might provide details of the size of the fleet and a breakdown of electric vehicles versus normal petrol or diesel cars."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Jean O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Jean O'Sullivan Yes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath I thank all the witnesses for staying with us. I am going to go back to the school transport review of 2024 because I did not get enough time on it earlier. Ms McNally said implementation is somewhere around 40%-plus in terms of that review. How many recommendations were made in the review?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally There were 27 recommendations. A few of them did not require action because they were recommendations to maintain the status quo , as such. There were about 24 recommendations that required action. All of those are advancing, and 42% are complete."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath Could Ms McNally provide the headline in terms of what the completed ones involve?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally They are broken down, for example, around eligibility, rules, integration, special educational need and data. Under eligibility, there were 25 pilots. We did 11 pilots in the first year and 14 in the second. The 25 pilots are advancing. They have been maintained for the 2026-27 school year. They are testing the distance rules other Deputies spoke about, including the nearest school rule, integration and so on. They are testing a number of the concepts and the recommendations."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath Is it mainly on a pilot basis?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally They are being done on a pilot basis. We feel that is the prudent way to do it. It is also because if we have to build capacity and so on, it is a way of testing the market. Colleagues have referred to the fact that it is highlighting problems. For example, in one of them, the demand in Rochfortbridge went through the roof. There was a 500% increase. Children and young people who had other alternatives sought to move from them onto this route, so it raised issues about supply, not just affordability, but also of vehicles and drivers."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath Just to clarify, when Ms McNally says 42% of the recommendations are complete, is she saying that the pilots have been completed?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally No, they would not be complete. I will give the Deputy an example of something that might be complete or that is very nearly there, namely the application form. We want to put the application online for families applying for their child who has special educational needs, to make it easier for them and better for us for data collection. That is nearly over the line."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath Are the pilot schemes not considered complete?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally No."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath They are a work in progress."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally They are leading towards the integration."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath In terms of what remains, Ms McNally mentioned integration as one of the key recommendations. What are the other key recommendations that have yet be to be fully implemented?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally The data utilisation. We have done a lot of work. We have tested other systems but we now have to decide on the system that we are going to use in order that we will have live data that we will be able to use and plan routes accordingly. That is very much a work in progress."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath I apologise if I missed it because I had to attend another committee meeting. How is the under-utilisation of spaces that are taken up but not used being addressed?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally I explained that at the moment, for safety purposes, we have one seat per ticket. We are addressing it in a few different ways. We are progressing the utilisation data. We need those IT systems. The reintroduction of the fees back to the 2021-22 levels is a way to encourage parents who were not really using the ticket to only apply for it if they are going to use it. I have gone blank now."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath Ms McNally touched on it. I apologise if I missed it, but do we have a clear picture on the data collection of the under-utilisation of spaces?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally No, we do not."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath Is the vacancy rate 20% or 30%?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally We just do not have accurate enough data to say. It varies from day to day."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath Surely Bus \u00c9ireann is in a position to relay that information back in terms of areas."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally Bus \u00c9ireann can come in on this, but because the service is outsourced and it is procuring private contractors, it is very difficult to get reliable data. Bus \u00c9ireann might come in on that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath To be fair to Bus \u00c9ireann, it is the Department that is paying for the service."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally Absolutely, yes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath It is the Department's responsibility to ensure that the information comes back to it, as the service provider."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally What I am saying is that some data have been shared. Mr. Clohessy will come in on this. Bus \u00c9ireann never suggested that it was adequate but there is not enough reliable data, so we need the utilisation and the technology."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Martin Clohessy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Martin Clohessy In the couple of instances where we have run them, they have been really insightful and helpful. What we have found is that it is much more nuanced than whether a child is using a space or not. They are using it at different times. They might be using it in the morning or in the afternoon. Sometimes they cannot use it because of after-school activities-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath Yes, sporadically."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Martin Clohessy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Martin Clohessy -----and more sporadically. That is why the technology requirement is there; it is to really get into the issue and give a proper insight into it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath If we take the example of a child who has a ticket and a seat and who may use it 30% of the time, because the parents may not be able to drive them on certain days of the week and then they use the bus, is that appropriate when there is another child who would use the place five days of the week and does not have a seat?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I will let the Comptroller and Auditor General in before Ms McNally replies if that is okay."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Seamus McCarthy We undertook a special report, which, I think, we published in 2017. We were looking at data that was available from 2015. We included a reference to a survey the Department asked CI\u00c9 to carry out. It looked at 34 primary routes and 11 post-primary routes. The key finding was that at primary level 61% of tickets issued were being used in the morning and 70% in the afternoon. At post-primary level, morning and afternoon ticket usage was 75% and 72%. I am just referencing it because, obviously, it is a methodology. It is not perfect, but if there was a selection of representative routes at least we would have some angle on the utilisation. It is not a substitute for proper ticketing."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath Based on that, it is somewhere in the region of 30% plus of seats that are not used."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Seamus McCarthy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Seamus McCarthy Correct. Obviously, there might be a different pattern for each child but, on average, the utilisation on buses was between 60% and 70%."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath It seems a high amount of wastage, in terms of the service that is being provided, if 30% of the seats are not filled. That is one of the frustrations for parents when their child cannot get a seat and they report back to us, as public representatives, and we know there are empty seats on the bus every day."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally It is a difficult policy to grapple with."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath I understand."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally The safety of the children has to come first. As Mr. Clohessy said, occupancy can be very sporadic. We also know from another policy area in the Department about attendance that the attendance of children in school has dropped. It is improving again but 20% of children are absent for more than 20 days a year. Between attendance issues, medical issues and extracurricular activities it is quite difficult."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath I understand that it is complex. We cannot take the roll call every day to see who is on the bus."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally We could have a policy of use it or lose it, as has been said."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath In terms of a certain amount of use anyway."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally That may be where we are going."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath How that is recorded is another issue. How do we capture that information? I understand it requires a lot of forensic analysis, but the Comptroller and Auditor General's report was published in 2017; it is now 2026. It does appear that there is a lot of work needed in this area to try to improve the levels of vacancy and waste in the system."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally We are definitely not where we want to be on the utilisation data. We would like to be ahead of where we are with the technology."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I have a number of concluding questions. Regarding school building projects, especially in terms of special education, a couple of terms were used earlier on. Ms McNally talked about really strong forward planning. Robust forward planning was also mentioned. I want to give an example where that has failed and failed dismally. It relates to a school community in my constituency, namely, Kilcoole Primary School, which has been fighting over many years to do away with prefabricated buildings on the school grounds. There have been prefabricated buildings there since 2011. There has been extensive planning engagement and, thankfully, it has moved to the construction of the new school and the refurbishment of another premises. Unfortunately, the school principal and teachers have been told now, at this stage, there are going to be four prefabricated buildings put on site, even though the refurbishment work is ongoing. The school community thought they had seen the end of prefabricated buildings, but here we are back to this situation. That robust planning has failed and failed dismally. Correspondence has been circulated that cites that in the case of Kilcoole Primary School the requirement of two special needs classes was identified well into the process. Why was there such a dismal failure that has led to a situation where parents and teachers are saying they fear segregation is now going to take between children with additional educational requirements and every other child in the school? Why was there such a failure in this situation?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally As this relates to an individual school, I will ask Mr. Loftus to come in on this."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hubert Loftus","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Hubert Loftus Generally, I do not accept that the Department has had a dismal failure in terms of its forward planning. We do a huge amount of forward planning. In the constituency itself more generally, we have invested almost \u20ac250 million since 2021, completing a very significant number of projects. Over 40% of the schools in the constituency have had additional capacity or improvements made to them, which is reflective of the forward planning being done. In terms of the school referenced, Kilcoole Primary School is one of the projects we currently have on site. It is a 24-classroom school building that will be there. The school currently has 23 classroom teachers. We are looking at how we might add additional capacity. In terms of modular accommodation, which is one of our delivery mechanisms for permanent accommodation, that is the mechanism we are looking at in that context. In making that judgment, we considered, from a value-for-money perspective, what is the most appropriate method for adding additional capacity at the school itself. It also adds a bit of flexibility because primary pupil projections for Kilcoole, as part of our forward planning, are at or near peak and will ultimately start to reduce. That gives us a bit of flexibility in how we manage it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach The robust forward planning should surely have captured that to ensure there was no necessity for prefabricated buildings. Mr. Loftus cites all the different metrics and all the positives, but I would argue all day that the school community still sees these prefabricated buildings as temporary, substandard and not as high standard as a permanent build. This is something ongoing and on-site as we speak here, and there is correspondence from the Department that said it was laid out in the process that this additional need was identified. That is a failure of forward planning."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hubert Loftus","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Hubert Loftus There is a world of difference between what historical prefabricated buildings were, even when I went to school, compared with the modular accommodation which is one of our permanent solutions. I put a lot of work into that piece. I would also make the general point that the school will ultimately have 24 classrooms as part of the project. We are looking at adding capacity there too. It currently has 23 classroom teachers."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Why was that additional need not identified in the robust forward planning process, which you have alluded to consistently?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hubert Loftus","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Hubert Loftus That project has been in our pipeline for quite a while."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Is it the delays that have led to this serious failure, that, in my view and the view of teachers, pupils and parents in Kilcoole, is going to lead to a substandard build? Is it the delays that have led to this?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hubert Loftus","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Hubert Loftus I do not accept that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach That is what you have said. This has been an ongoing, lengthy process and in that process this additional need was identified."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hubert Loftus","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Hubert Loftus It is an ongoing process and, yes, that project had to work its way through the pipeline to construction, and that is where it is. Ultimately, it is a 24-classroom building between the two amalgamations of schools there. They currently have 23 classroom teachers. The extra modular accommodation, which is a permanent solution and a world of a difference compared with historical prefabricated-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach To conclude on this, at this point is the Department not prepared to move to a permanent build, away from the current model in which-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hubert Loftus","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Hubert Loftus The modular is a permanent solution. There is flexibility in how they are used."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach What is the lifespan on these?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hubert Loftus","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Hubert Loftus For any project we deliver, regardless of the delivery mechanism, our technical guidance is based on a 60-year lifespan. Obviously, that lifespan then adjusts-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach So, those prefabricated buildings are going to last 60 years. That is not permanent."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hubert Loftus","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Hubert Loftus Any of our buildings have a technical span of 60 years. However, that gets extended through maintenance, and we always send a strong message on preventative maintenance. That is a strong aspect of our national development plan going forward."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I want to conclude on this topic, but I urge and call on the Department to look at this particular case again. The community has been failed. The Department's system, according to Mr. Loftus's own words, through the length of time it has taken to get from stage 1 right the way through, has failed the community of Kilcoole. I am sure that is replicated in many towns and villages right across the State, with failure and delays in progressing essential builds."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hubert Loftus","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Mr. Hubert Loftus To make a final point, we ultimately make those decisions in regard to what we consider the most value-for-money solution to achieve that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally We have to be fair and objective here. There has been a huge amount of delivery across the school building programme and the statistics and the facts are there. There has been massive delivery in terms of new builds, brand new schools and extensions to schools. The volume and scale are huge, and the quality is generally really high as well."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I want to return to Bus \u00c9ireann. I welcome its representatives are here today and I am conscious that Bus \u00c9ireann is here on a voluntary basis and is not audited by the C and AG, and therefore we do not have a role in scrutinising its books. That is a major failure, not of the representatives' doing, but of Government. I think that needs to change, not just as regards Bus \u00c9ireann, but also other commercial semi-State bodies. However, I welcome the fact Bus \u00c9ireann is here. It would be a missed opportunity for me not to raise a number of local constituency failures by Bus \u00c9ireann on routes other than the school transport routes it provides. In County Wicklow we have a number of routes, including the 131, 132 and 133. I continually get complaints about all of those routes. Can I ask a more general question first? What is the most complained-about route Bus \u00c9ireann operates in the State?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Jean O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Jean O'Sullivan I would say the most complained-about route is in Cork."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I am conscious that in 2018 and 2019 the 133 that runs between Wicklow town and the city centre was the most complained-about route. There were 899 complaints about that route. If the volume of complaints I get from constituents on a daily and weekly basis is sent on to Bus \u00c9ireann, I am sure the 133 is up there as one of the most complained-about routes in the State. Would I be right in saying that?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Jean O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Jean O'Sullivan I am not sure, to be honest. As the Chair knows, there is an infrastructure piece we are all building on. One aspect is that we have an ageing fleet and we are getting newer fleet all the time, and we very much welcome the investment from the National Transport Authority. We also have a capacity issue. The complaints we are currently getting relate to capacity issues in terms of the vehicles running on those routes and the fact that they are an ageing fleet. That is just a timing thing, because the new fleet is coming into the country. We are now working on considerable EV projects to utilise the new EV vehicles that are also coming on board. All I can say is our commitment-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach In the new fleet coming into the country, I think there are 60 buses. That is expected between now and the end of 2027. That does not give much hope to my constituents who use the 132 between Bunclody and Connolly Station. It runs through Baltinglass and Wicklow. For many days over the past weeks there has been no service because one of the limited buses that serves the route has been undergoing maintenance because it is consistently breaking down. Are we serious here that we do not have additional buses to put on to ensure a critical service for a rural community can have continuity of service? Is Ms O'Sullivan telling us that they potentially have to wait until the end of 2027 before the 60 buses come on stream?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Jean O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Jean O'Sullivan We are getting a delivery of new buses as early as the beginning of next year. They are diesel buses. We are also getting EV buses as they cascade around the country. There are a number of vehicles, including school buses, entering the system next year. We feel that some of it is an infrastructure timeline issue where the newer vehicles will reduce the maintenance issues we are having. We are having significant maintenance issues with older vehicles, but we are replacing them as quickly as we can on a regular basis. That is a commitment of the State."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I turn to the 133 and the 131. Again, they are critical services with ongoing and regular issues in terms of capacity. Students and people going to work are waiting for buses. A bus coming from Wicklow town is driving by them in Newtownmountkennedy or Kilpedder because it is at capacity. Despite repeated requests for additional services to be put on to cater for the huge demand there because it is a fast growing area, the service has not really changed significantly over the past number of years to reflect the huge increase in population and demand. What can Ms O'Sullivan tell people who are being passed by Bus \u00c9ireann buses daily in places like Kilpedder?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Jean O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Jean O'Sullivan We have our allocation of vehicles and the schedules we work on with the NTA. We are in an ongoing engagement with the NTA to deliver additional capacity along numerous routes, including these routes. We are hoping that in this budget funding will be put forward by the NTA across nationally-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach They are hoping, so those-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Jean O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Jean O'Sullivan No, the budget allocation has been made but what routes are going to benefit from it is the piece we are waiting for."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I ask specifically about the 133. An issue I have raised consistently is a park-and-ride facility at Fassaroe in Bray. The facility is built. It cost \u20ac11 million in taxpayers' money. The failure by the NTA to forward plan has again resulted in a situation where that facility is locked up under private security because there are no buses to serve it. It has been locked up now for the guts of a year. We have been told by the NTA that the plan was, and is, to increase the capacity of the 133 and put more buses on the route. Where are those negotiations at and when does Bus \u00c9ireann expect it will have buses going in to that badly needed park-and-ride facility that is currently locked up?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Jean O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Jean O'Sullivan I do not know the answer to that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Ms O'Sullivan does not know."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Jean O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Jean O'Sullivan I do not know the answer to the NTA's approval on opening up the park-and-ride. I can ask the authority and find that out, but I currently do not know the answer."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Has there been any engagement with Bus \u00c9ireann over the past year in advance of this park-and-ride facility? It was due to open many months ago. What engagement took place at that stage?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Jean O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Jean O'Sullivan I do not know. Our operational team would be able to answer that, but they are not here. We are only here with the school transport team, but I can get the answer for the Deputy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Can Ms O'Sullivan get me a comprehensive answer?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Jean O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Jean O'Sullivan No problem."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach More importantly, when is it going to open? That is what people want to hear. There is \u20ac11 million of taxpayers' money sitting idle and there is a failure to forward plan. The witnesses can argue with me all day. There is a chronic failure of robust forward planning in the Department of Education and Youth. It is the same with the NTA. I would appreciate a comprehensive report on that, and specifically on when it is going to open and what additional services will be on that critical 133 route between Wicklow town and Dublin city centre."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally There is massive forward planning. There is evidence of it and there is evidence of success. We do not always get it right in every case, but the evidence is there and we are happy to provide a report on the evidence of forward planning."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Ms McNally might do that. There may be forward planning, but by the time it goes through that comprehensive, timely, lengthy and cumbersome planning process that forward planning is outdated by the time contracts and contractors move-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally There are also-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach This was the case in Kilcoole."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally No."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I thank that is reflected in the correspondence that has been given to the school community. This additional capacity was identified late in the lengthy process, and that is the experience-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bernie McNally","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Ms Bernie McNally I have to point out to the Cathaoirleach that we also have budgetary parameters. I am not saying there are not individual circumstances that are delayed but, broadly, the forward planning has delivered. I have to put that on the record."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach That concludes our engagement for today. I thank the Secretary General and her officials from the Department of Education and Youth for attending. I also thank the officials from Bus \u00c9ireann, the Department of Transport and the C and AG's office for their attendance. Is it agreed that the clerk will seek any follow-up information and carry out any agreed actions arising from the meeting? Agreed. The committee will meet again on Thursday, 12 November 2026 with officials from Greyhound Racing Ireland."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The witnesses withdrew."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an coiste ar athl\u00f3 ar 2.16 p.m. go dt\u00ed 9.30 a.m. D\u00e9ardaoin, an 12 Samhain 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The committee adjourned at 2.16 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 12 November 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"School Transport and Special Education: Discussion"}]}}]},"contextDate":"2026-11-05"},{"debateRecord":{"house":{"showAs":"34th D\u00e1il","committeeCode":"","houseCode":"dail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/house\/dail\/34","chamberType":"house","houseNo":"34"},"chamber":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/def\/house\/dail","showAs":"D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann"},"lastUpdated":"2026-11-11T09:43:03+00:00","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/main","formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/mul@\/main.xml"},"pdf":null},"date":"2026-11-05","counts":{"contributorCount":132,"divisionCount":0,"debateSectionCount":55,"questionCount":42,"billCount":1},"debateType":"debate","debateSections":[{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_2","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":false,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_3","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Energy Prices","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_2","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_3.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pa Daly The Minister knows that we have the highest energy bills in Europe. Wholesale prices are surging again. They are up about 93% in a single year and no doubt another set of price hikes will be on the way. In the budget, however, the Government chose not to introduce energy credits or a household energy payment to give households some breathing space. Pensioners, workers and struggling families have now had years of these costs. Groceries are up 25%, mortgage costs have doubled and electricity and gas prices have increased. Why did the Minister choose not to give a credit?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister for Climate, Energy and the Environment (Deputy Darragh O'Brien) Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an Teachta. As everyone knows, the conflicts in Ukraine and the Middle East have caused significant disruption to international energy markets. This has resulted in higher energy prices for households and businesses right the way across Europe, including in Ireland. In response to that, the Government has taken a range of significant measures to help support consumers with energy costs. We have established the national energy affordability task force to examine energy affordability challenges and identify practical measures to support households and businesses. The work of the task force helped to inform key aspects of budget 2027 with a particular focus on those most vulnerable to high energy costs. A central element of the Government's approach is reducing energy bills through improved energy efficiency and increased deployment of solar PV. Budget 2027 provided a record \u20ac654 million for residential and community energy upgrade schemes. This investment will support more households to improve energy performance of their homes and lower their energy consumption, permanently reducing bills and improving comfort, while decreasing reliance on imported fossil fuel. The Government also continues to support fully funded energy upgrades for eligible low-income households. Since 2019, we have provided over \u20ac2 billion and delivered over 300,000 energy upgrades, including nearly 41,000 fully funded upgrades to households at risk of energy poverty. Homeowners can save up to \u20ac1,120 per annum when they carry out whole home upgrades. Social protection supports are another important component of the Government's response. In the budget we increased the rate of fuel allowance to over \u20ac1,200 per year and expanded the eligibility for the scheme, which now supports over one quarter of households nationwide. In addition, increases were provided for the living alone allowance and the child support payment, while a new cost-of-disability payment was also introduced."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pa Daly The Minister referred to upgrades, but the Government is way behind on its heat pump targets and on the retrofitting targets. This crisis of people not being able to afford their energy bills and being put under enormous pressure is the direct result of political choices that have been made by Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael governments over the years. This Government has also made a conscious choice not to give people temporary relief. We in Sinn F\u00e9in know that energy credits are not a long-term solution. It is, as Andy Burnham has said in England, to give immediate breathing space to people. It is a short-term measure to provide relief and to give time, while we should be bringing down prices. We have proposed a number of measures in legislation over the past few years including a windfall tax, resetting access to grid infrastructure because data centres cannot continue their free-for-all, and legislation to hold the energy companies to account when they are making massive profits on the backs of ordinary people. We also have legislation to accelerate our renewables transition. Will the Government adopt any of that legislation? We are not pushy. We would like the Government to take our legislation and use it for its own proposals."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Darragh O'Brien Of course you would. There are two things. We are not way behind on retrofitting at all. This year alone, as of the end of last month, we had 124,000 applications for home energy upgrades. This is because of the change to the grants that I brought forward with the Government earlier this year. That is double last year's total. We have over 300,000 home energy upgrades. These deliver permanent savings. That is where I want to see this happen. We are still at risk of the vagaries of international wholesale gas prices, so the best thing we can do is permanently reduce people's use, make their homes more efficient and make businesses more efficient. There were over 5,000 business grants last year paid for through the carbon tax that Sinn F\u00e9in would get rid of. That is \u20ac654 million we are investing. It goes straight into homes, businesses and farms to help reduce their costs, reduce their energy consumption and deliver cleaner and more sustainable energy. That will be our focus. We have also targeted the supports at a social welfare level to over one quarter of our households, with \u20ac1,200 per year, along with the fuel supports we brought forward for productive sectors like haulage and farming, and for motorists, with \u20ac1.4 billion of supports."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pa Daly While we are talking about the prices, in September the Minister said that the national energy affordability task force, NEAT, so-called \"action plan\" would inform budget 2027. He said that other areas were under consideration in advance of the budget and that the national energy affordability task force would feed into that. We are now a month on from the budget and the Minister has failed to produce it. There is a delay of five months. What impact did that task force report have on the budget? Why did the Minster fail to publish it? Is there any particular reason for that? In truth, is it a talking shop? How often has it met? Is it just a smokescreen to delay things further down the road and give more excuses so that immediate relief is not given to people who are really struggling with their energy bills? The Minister has no answers for people who are struggling with their energy bills."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Darragh O'Brien I am going to publish that in the next couple of weeks. It did feed into the budget. The Deputy may recall that just prior to the budget I brought out a new set of grants, such as the boiler scrappage scheme. This is \u20ac14,500 to replace fossil fuel boilers. That is a massive issue for people with home heating oil or other types of fossil fuel boilers. This \u20ac14,500 more than doubled in the course of the year. I brought back in the domestic battery grant, which was gotten rid of for some reason a number of years. That is in place now. These were specific measures out of the national energy affordability task force, which the Deputy will see very shortly because I will publish it in the next couple of weeks. I will bring it to Cabinet and will then publish it. There are also medium- and longer-term measures within it, such as looking at the construct of builds and the regulatory framework. The Deputy can be assured that it was not delayed at all. I chair those meetings as well. It meets regularly. The NEAT report will be published in the coming weeks, well in advance of the end of the year. That will provide a guide for the other work we need to do with regard to energy over the course of next year, the year after that and for the remainder of this Government."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Energy Prices"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_4","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Legislative Programme","counts":{"speechCount":7,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_2","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_4","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ciar\u00e1n Ahern","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_4.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Darragh O'Brien I thank the Deputy for this important question. The heat (networks and miscellaneous provisions) Bill will establish a regulatory framework to support the development and expansion of district heating networks in Ireland. The legislation will contribute to the decarbonisation of the heating sector and support the achievement of Ireland's climate objectives. Advancing this legislation is an absolute key priority for me. Following the Government decision of 30 October 2024 to approve the drafting of the general scheme, we have engaged extensively with Government Departments, the Office of the Attorney General and other stakeholders including IrDEA, the umbrella representative group for this sector in Ireland. The engagement informed a number of revisions to the general scheme, which was subsequently approved in July of this year. The revised heads of the Bill underwent pre-legislative scrutiny before the joint committee, which the Deputy was involved in. That was in September 2026, just a couple of months ago, and we are currently working with the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel to progress the drafting of the Bill. Publication and introduction of the Bill is expected in early 2027. While the new legislative framework will provide greater certainty for investors and project developers, district heating projects can and do progress in advance of this legislation. I engage with the sector on a regular basis. We have also brought forward the pre-construction fund. The objective of this fund is to support the development work required to bring projects from conception stage towards construction. Following a competitive process I have approved funding for nine district heating projects of about \u20ac5 million in Portlaoise, Galway, Leixlip, Blanchardstown, Monaghan, Castletroy, Naas, Drogheda and Dundalk. I am delighted to see that. Planning is under way for phase 2 of the first operational scheme in Tallaght. The project received \u20ac4.92 million from the climate action fund. In addition, \u20ac50 million is being allocated to district heating in Poolbeg where significant progress has already been made for preliminary design and advance works. We have also provided a fund of up to \u20ac100 million, allocated under the NDP, for continued development of efficient district heating networks."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ciar\u00e1n Ahern","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ciar\u00e1n Ahern It is great to hear that the Bill will come in early 2027. The climate committee has been continuing its pre-legislative scrutiny. which we hope to finalise today, and we will have a report for the Minister. We visited Copenhagen, as a committee, last week to look at how they do things over there. Obviously, it is totally different from here. They have been doing district heating over there for 100 years. It is quite interesting in that it started out as a cost-of-living measure 100 years ago. They turbocharged it during the oil crisis in the seventies when they realised they needed to wean themselves off unsustainable, volatile and expensive fossil fuels. While now it is also a sustainability measure and almost entirely based on renewable sources of heat in Copenhagen, it did start out just using oil, gas and so on. There are very interesting structures in Copenhagen. We ask the Minister to look into them. They are municipality led rather than private sector led."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Darragh O'Brien We are way behind in district heating. We have one scheme, but there is a good pipeline with those nine projects I mentioned which are being supported at pre-construction. There is a number of schemes in planning right now and a Galway scheme with planning consented. There is real momentum in the sector and there are vast opportunities. I agree with the Deputy. I know the committee visited Copenhagen and that was also a very productive and informative visit. I want to get these projects into construction. The pre-construction fund is really good because it helps to derisk projects at a preparatory stage. The capital fund under the NDP also supports those projects and their delivery. I do not know whether the committee has visited Poolbeg but it should. The waste energy plant itself powers over 80,000 homes from an electricity perspective but is ready to go with regard to district heating. That one scheme would decarbonise heat in this country by 5%. We want to get that done. Dublin City Council has lodged for planning on that connection. I have engaged with them directly myself. I thank the Deputy for the question. It is an important sector with lots of opportunities for us."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ciar\u00e1n Ahern","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ciar\u00e1n Ahern We have a target of 15.8% for renewable heating by 2030. It is going to be very difficult to get that. Poolbeg will obviously play a huge role. We visited a similar waste-to-energy plant in Copenhagen called CopenHill. They were trying to figure out how to get public buy-in into putting a big incinerator in the middle of a residential area. They put a ski slope on it and a climbing wall. It is absolutely incredible stuff. They have multiple heat sources over there. Everything in Copenhagen, from homes to hotels to industry to shopping centres, is both heated and cooled via these district heating schemes. It is absolutely incredible. We have a long way to go but it is a means of keeping prices down. Average energy prices for a household in Copenhagen are somewhere between \u20ac1,200 and \u20ac1,500 per year. It is a cost-of-living measure as well as a sustainability measure. The schemes here have a long way to go, but we will give the Minister every support we can in ensuring they are expanded and brought to their full potential, including the one in Tallaght in my constituency."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Darragh O'Brien The Deputy might break into song: \"Wonderful, Wonderful Copenhagen\". Deputy Ahern is far too young but Deputy Pa Daly will know that song."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pa Daly Never heard of it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Darragh O'Brien I am sure he has. This sector is ready to go. Deputy Ahern has raised it from a decarbonisation perspective, which absolutely makes total sense, if we consider the number of heat pumps that would have to be installed to equate to one plant. We are still absolutely committed to heat pumps and electrification, as we covered in the first question and there are further questions coming up. What we want to see is projects starting. The sector has responded really well to the pre-construction fund and the allocation for the first time of dedicated funding on the capital side under the NDP. The heat (networks and miscellaneous provisions) Bill will be important because we need a regulatory framework. That is not stopping the development. The sector really wants to see that published. The work the committee is doing on pre-legislative scrutiny is very important. I think it will conclude that today and issue the report to us. We are still drafting the Bill. I am meeting with the Attorney General this morning, and that will form part of that meeting as well. We are moving on it. Over the course of the next couple of years, I really want to see these schemes deployed and connected."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Legislative Programme"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_5","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Weather Events","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_2","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_5","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_5.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pa Daly I want to ask the Minister what assessment or planning is being done about the resilience of Ireland's critical infrastructure to severe weather events. Is he going to put any additional investment into grid resilience? Every time a storm hits the country, we are told that it is unprecedented and are promised lessons will be learned, but the next storm arrives and we discover once again that critical infrastructure remains dangerously exposed. I am talking about flooding. I will mention the Ballyheige salt-water intrusion as well, even though technically it is not under the Minister's brief. What is the Government doing to prepare into the future for these extreme weather events, which will recur?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Darragh O'Brien The resilience of critical energy infrastructure to severe weather events and storms has been extensively assessed through national risk assessments, sectoral adaptation planning, electricity sector preparedness reviews and post-event analysis from Storm \u00c9owyn. At a Cabinet subcommittee with the Taoiseach, T\u00e1naiste, myself and others, we just discussed this again in the last couple of weeks. The assessments identified severe weather, flooding, vegetation and forestry-related risks as key challenges for the electricity network, and have informed both significant resilience investment and a range of operational and legislative measures. Additional investment is planned and is under way. Price review 6, the \u20ac18.9 billion we are going to invest in our electricity grid between now and 2030, includes \u20ac990 million specifically targeted at resilience and climate adaptation measures. Since Storm \u00c9owyn, ESB Networks has delivered a significant programme of resilience and vegetation management measures aimed at reducing the risk and impact of future storm-related outages, including \u20ac74.5 million invested through the ESB Networks winter resilience plan; 25,000 km of hedgerows inspected and maintained; 3,782 km of electricity infrastructure in forestry areas assessed; more than 1,800 forestry owners engaged; 12,000 vulnerable trees attended to; 36 km of high-priority forestry corridors cleared already; and six specialist harvesting machines deployed to support forestry corridor and resilience work. The programme is continuing into 2027, with plans for a further 55 km of forestry corridor works and interventions on an additional 12,000 to 14,000 high-risk hedgerow trees. The assessments undertaken include Ireland's national climate change risk assessment, the Government's sectoral adaptation plans, including electricity and gas sector adaptation plans and crews' sector risk preparedness to 2029, which assesses 25 crisis scenarios, including storms, flooding and extreme weather."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pa Daly It is not just me or any of the Opposition parties saying it. The recent assessment from the Climate Change Advisory Council states that Ireland's climate resilience planning does not match the scale or urgency of the risks that the country now faces, the storms, the flooding and the extreme weather. I am interested in what the Minister said about vegetation and forestry. I have no doubt that in the flooding that occurred in Listowel prior to the last general election, there was a direct impact from forestry upstream, the canals that were flowing from the forestry, and the surge of water that came down and flooded two parts of the town. The report that came as a result of that did not mention the impact on forestry at all. Can the Minister be more specific about whether that area upstream in the River Feale has been identified, or about water surges in general, in areas that may formerly have been bog and would have held on to the water much better? The CCAC also said that 31 of the 54 major relief schemes are stuck at preliminary design stage."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Darragh O'Brien Flood relief schemes are really important and form part of the Critical Infrastructure Act. We just need to deliver them and we are. We have seen where flood relief schemes have been put in place. Many of them, by the way, were objected to for a long time by various groups and individuals, but they actually make a massive difference. Getting back to the Deputy's question, I have outlined specifically what we have done already. Another significant piece of work relates to the legislation. The ESB (amendment) Bill 2026 got approval of the draft heads and we are carrying out priority drafting. That is to ensure there are no grey areas about access to land. The Deputy might give me the details about that specific river and catchment area and I will certainly check that for him. We have 11.6% of our country under forest. We have a reforestation programme which we want to continue to advance. We have targets for additional tree planting that we want to meet. It is critically important, though, that those who own the forests maintain them properly. The ESB is not going to be able to do everything after every single storm event, nor should it. We have private investors and pension funds that own forests, those type of things, and indeed farmers. They need to maintain it. It needs to be part of the maintenance licence. That has formed part of my detailed discussions with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. When that Bill is drafted - I have got approval at Cabinet for it and it will go to committee as well - we will welcome the Deputy's input. It also will deal with maintenance of existing forestry and new forest planted, as to what the responsibility of the owner is."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pa Daly In an awful lot of forestry, and particularly upstream in the River Feale, there is vertical drainage from the forestry. The bog that used to soak it up and leave the water out gradually out over a ten-day period is now barrelling the rainwater, if it is heavy, down into the river and gouging out the banks. The consequence is flooding in the town. I also want to talk about coastal communities, specifically the Ballyheige salt-water intrusion. The Minister responsible \u2013 I know it is not the Minister, Deputy O\u2019Brien \u2013 has not visited the area at all. Uisce \u00c9ireann has not had a direct meeting with the 3,500 or 3,600 households involved. We are talking about some 7,000 people on a do-not-consume notice for over one month now with no real end in sight. There are proposals about planning but the amazing thing is that the Glenderry sandstone water source was closed during the summer and has not been reopened yet to provide clear water for the people. Why has that not happened?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Darragh O'Brien It does not fall directly under my remit but I had extensive engagement with Uisce \u00c9ireann in my previous portfolio with responsibility for this area. I watched the report on RT\u00c9 about the situation at Ballyheige. The Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Browne, is well aware of it and is engaged with Uisce \u00c9ireann in this regard. It is my understanding, from watching the report and from the Fianna F\u00e1il councillor in the area who was interviewed in that report, that there is engagement with Uisce \u00c9ireann. If that is not the case, I will follow up on that. There is engagement, but there has also been a request for attendance at a public meeting. That is quite recent. I will follow that up with the Minister, Deputy Browne, after this session in the Chamber. On winter preparedness and preparedness for storms, resilience is critical for our grid network. The most important resilience project on the books is the North-South interconnector. That is why we need to start the project early next year. It needs to be done without further delay. That in itself will provide significant resilience to our electricity network."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Weather Events"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_6","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Energy Policy","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_2","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_6","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_6.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Roderic O'Gorman For the past year, I have been raising with the Minister the potential for people living in apartments and renting properties to be able to purchase a plug-in solar scheme and benefit from low-cost electricity. I have been asking the Minister to move quickly to remove the barriers in Ireland that prevent the quick adaptation of this technology, like we have seen in Germany. When does the Minister expect Irish households will be able to benefit from low-cost electricity through plug-in solar?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Darragh O'Brien The Deputy has raised this before, and I have discussed this as well. Plug-in solar is an emerging, low-carbon technology and we are committed to accelerating its introduction into Ireland. I want to be clear about that. Once enabled, it could provide a cost-effective and accessible way for customers to participate more effectively in our energy system, with potential benefits including lower electricity bills, greater demand flexibility and increased support for Ireland's renewable and climate objectives. At my request, ESB Networks established a plug-in solar working group in May 2026 to examine pathways for safe, standardised and scalable deployment of the technology. To date, the group has met nine times. The working group recently submitted an options report to my Department, setting out recommendations on matters including installation approaches, product specifications and customer guidance. In parallel to that, we are working with stakeholders to progress elements of the regulatory framework. Planned next steps include an Ireland-specific safety assessment, legislative review, development of a product specification, publication of detailed customer guidance and the establishment of an online product registration portal. Further work is required to ensure the technology can be deployed safely, which is what we want, and that it is supported by an appropriate regulatory framework, with any legal barriers addressed. We are currently progressing the safety assessment and the legislative review, both of which will conclude this year. Product standards are a matter for the NSAI and ESB Networks is responsible for registration arrangements. While delivery timeframes will depend on the work of these stakeholders, we are committed to working closely to expedite them. To give the Deputy an idea of a timeframe, I am aiming for the end of quarter 2 next year. We need the regulatory and safety assessments completed. This will be a game-changer, particularly for those multi-unit developments and apartments where it can be more difficult to get multiple owners to agree to rooftop solar. The timeframe is the end of quarter 2 next year, subject to the regulatory piece being done because we want it deployed safely. There is real opportunity in this regard. We are going to do it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Roderic O'Gorman I am glad the Minister is recognising that plug-in solar should be an option for Irish households. It could be big for people who are renting and unable to get an SEAI grant because they do not own the house, as well as for those living in apartments. I am glad he acknowledged that we are behind in our roll-out of this compared to other European countries. I appreciate that he provided the end of quarter 2 as the date. That is useful. However, I am trying to understand how some of the big pieces of work the Minister set out are going to be done in that scale of time. I agree that the technology has to be correct and safe, but what kind of timeframe are we looking at for an Ireland-specific safety study to be carried out? How long is that going to take? A legislative review was also mentioned. A legislative review means pushing something well down the tracks. How can the Minister ensure and provide clarity that will be delivered in time so that Irish households will be benefiting from plug-in solar in quarter 2 of next year, as he said?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Darragh O'Brien Let us look at examples. I do not think we are way behind. Britain approved plug-in solar in August 2026, but very little plug-in solar has actually been deployed in Britain because it did not do a lot of the regulatory work. To give the Deputy assurance on this, the working group has met nine times since July. That is not us trying to delay anything at all. There are real opportunities in this regard, particularly for multi-unit developments. I live in one such development, so I can see how this will make a massive difference for people in apartments and that type of thing. It is also cheap. It will make a difference. Plug-in solar is not as powerful as normal solar PV panels, but it is not intended to replace them. It is simply an addition. ESB Networks, to be fair, has carried out substantial work on this. I am aiming for all of this work to be concluded by the end of quarter two next year so that people can purchase it. The SEAI has fed into this as well. There are real opportunities here. The legislative review is not a way of delaying this. I do not want this delayed. I want it in place as soon as possible."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Roderic O'Gorman As the Minister said, Britain has put in those approvals and I have no doubt we will see the take-up of units across that country. Britain began its process in February. The contrast in speed between Britain and Ireland in this regard is what concerns me. The Minister has provided a clear timeframe of the end of quarter 2 2027. I will continue to engage with the Minister to ensure the legislative review moves quickly. What are the key pieces of legislation that need to be assessed for the successful roll-out of plug-in solar? Has the Minister given any consideration to the SEAI providing grants and support for plug-in solar? Is he considering that, or does he consider the cost accessible enough already? This is an opportunity to bring the benefits of low-cost electricity to people who cannot currently enjoy it. We have to do everything we can to speed that up and make it available to as many families as possible."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Darragh O'Brien We have just short of 200,000 households in the country with solar panels. We have over 1 GW of rooftop solar in the country and it is accelerating at a rate not seen before. People are responding to it. They understand it. With regard to plug-in solar, the Deputy referenced Britain and how it just took from February to August there, but I ask him to have a look at how much plug-in solar has been deployed. It is very little. It put the cart before the horse. We want to get this right. I want to have it in place by the end of quarter two where people can actually go and purchase these units. We have got to make sure that the internal wiring and electricity infrastructure is safe for this to happen. The Deputy knows that as well. Cost wise, it will be between \u20ac500 and \u20ac1,000. The need for grant aid may not be as distinct as it is for other schemes. We will look at it, however, particularly for low-income households, social housing and apartments. It could be deployed in a very cost-effective way. It is a legislative review. I do not envisage that we will need primary legislation. That is not what I am talking about. It might also be useful for the committee, at the appropriate time, to have a look at this. I am aiming for the end of quarter 2 2027 to get this in place so people can purchase plug-in solar."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Energy Policy"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_7","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Data Centres","counts":{"speechCount":9,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_2","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_7","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Donnelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Donnelly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-Donnelly.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_7.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Donnelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Donnelly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-Donnelly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul Donnelly I will quickly address the previous question because I am interested in that area. No one has mentioned the rules around planning and how solar panels can be put on the side of apartment blocks. That is probably going to be a block. Anyway, that is a different question. Will the Minister outline the steps he is taking to address the fact that data centre demand is outpacing growth in renewable energy?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister of State at the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment (Deputy Alan Dillon) I thank the Deputy for his question. Data centres are central to Ireland's economic and digital future. Beyond their direct economic contribution, they underpin the wider digital economy and support investments in renewable energy through mechanisms including long-term power purchase agreements. The Government is prioritising the development of more renewable energy, including reforming the planning system to make it easier to build clean energy projects. Sustainable progress has been made and Ireland already regularly generates 40% to 50% of its electricity from renewable sources. Renewable generation capacity connected to the electricity system now exceeds 8.9 GW, an increase of more than 5 GW over the past decade. Against the backdrop of rising electricity demand, including from data centres, the Government has introduced mechanisms to better align our electricity demand with renewable generation and, critically, the necessary supporting infrastructure. For example, the large energy user action plan provides a robust set of actions to develop a strategic plan-led approach to facilitate future investment in energy-intensive sectors, while aligning future demand with renewable energy deployment and grid infrastructure and ensuring that the cost of developing necessary additional infrastructure is borne in a manner that is fair and balanced. In parallel, the CRU's large energy user connection policy established stringent criteria to ensure new data centres seeking connections in the electricity system address security of electricity, supply risks, system constraints and promote renewable energy targets. This includes requiring that at least 80% of annual electricity demand be met with additional renewable energy generated in Ireland. The plan-led approach is intended to align growth with Ireland's green transition, security of supply and affordability objectives, while also supporting wider Government priorities."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Donnelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Donnelly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-Donnelly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul Donnelly I would challenge anyone to do a quick Google search about the dangers to our energy supply arising from data centres. I have a couple of statistics. Electricity demand in Ireland is growing at roughly 23% annually and data centres currently consume 21% or 22% of the State's total electricity, indicating it could rise to more than 30% by 2030. Data centres absorb virtually all new added wind and renewable energy capacity. Instead of the greening of the world economy, new green, clean energy feeds the digital infrastructure, leaving the rest of the country still heavily reliant on fossil fuel. Data centres prolong fossil fuel dependency by bypassing the fuel grids, drive up wholesale prices and bills, and put strain on grid reliability. The issue of data centres and the energy that they consume goes on and on. It is worrying that the moratorium on new data centres was lifted by the Government in January. There are real fears in communities about how they will impact on our energy supply."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Dillon We speak about answering unrestricted growth. That is why the Government has moved to introduce a plan-led approach instead of allowing unmanaged development. If one looks at what has been introduced through the large energy user action plan, through aligned future demand growth with renewable energy development, transmission infrastructure and security of supply, the reality is that we are looking at significant progress in renewable energy generation. As I said earlier, we have over 8.9 GW now in process. Between 40% and 50% of our electricity is regularly coming from renewable sources. While demand is increasing, supply from indigenous renewable energy is also increasing rapidly. Government policy is focused on accelerating that progress even further and continuing our twin objectives around decarbonisation and digitalisation."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Donnelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Donnelly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-Donnelly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul Donnelly People are going to be extremely worried. Ireland leads the EU, with 31 MW of data centre capacity per 100,000 people. It is more than triple the nearest competitor, the Netherlands, and ten times the European average. The Minister of State just stated that we are going to push forward and will have more of these data centres. I find that worrying and people are going to be really worried. If one looks at the amount of clean energy, data centres are going to rely more on gas. Where does that leave our energy strategy? Where does it leave our ability to cope with the amount of energy that data centres suck up? Yesterday, I was in the audiovisual room to hear what is being held in those data centres and the infrastructure that the Israeli apartheid regime is using in Dublin. Data centres are hosting infrastructure for an apartheid regime. These data centres are not at all what we are talking about for the future."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Dillon With respect, the Deputy has not mentioned one benefit of what data centres provide, in underpinning our enterprise sector around ICT and digitalisation. It is a tactic that Sinn F\u00e9in uses. More than 180,000 jobs are underpinned as part of this sector."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Donnelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Donnelly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-Donnelly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul Donnelly Are they in data centres?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Darragh O'Brien In ICT."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Dillon Digital services provide an enormous service to our citizens and to businesses and public services which rely on them every single day. The issue is how the Government manages that pathway forward. As I said, we have the large energy user action plan and the Commission for Regulation of Utilities, CRU, connection policy. Future development will be linked with renewable energy projects. There will be proper planning policy and infrastructure delivery. The answer is not about rising demand. It is about bringing more renewable energy projects and grid infrastructure on stream. That is what we are focused on in the here and now."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Data Centres"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_8","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Energy Prices","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_2","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Albert Dolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_8.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Albert Dolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Albert Dolan Electricity costs remain a major burden on both households and SMEs. High energy prices are damaging Irish competitiveness and increasing the cost of doing business. I welcome the Government's supports to date but, ultimately, we have to tackle the underlying costs of electricity. What further measures will the Minister introduce to reduce prices, particularly around network charges and regulated costs?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Darragh O'Brien I thank the Deputy for raising this important point. He is right that energy costs across Europe and here in Ireland are too high. They have increased substantially. The main reason is the outbreak of the conflict in the Middle East, which was preceded by the war in Ukraine. That said, Europe and Ireland are still far too dependent on imported fossil fuel, and we need to reduce that dependence. To do that, we need to accelerate renewables. The Deputy will be aware, having advocated for them strongly, of the range of new supports that we have brought forward for household and business retrofitting, which is making a massive difference. There have been 124,000 domestic applications this year alone. We will retrofit more than 70,000 homes this year and more than 5,000 businesses. This means permanent savings, reducing energy use and improving energy efficiency. The Deputy's question about network charges is valid. It relates to the construct and the structure. How do we charge for things and who pays? There are two elements to that. One is the network charges work that is being done at the European Union level. We are leading on that under our Presidency. We want to get that back to the Council in December for agreement on a general approach to move it forward. There has been some discussion around taxation. Discussions with European colleagues have been going well. We want to get the grids package agreed by the end of this year at European level. We have our own grids package, as the Deputy knows, which is PR6, with funding of \u20ac18.9 billion. On network charges and the regulatory framework, the national energy affordability task force, NEAT, which I chair, will publish that report in the next couple of weeks. That fed into the budget for shorter term immediate measures, and did so last year too, on the 9% VAT rate. We will publish distinct work on that. It will about taking action to do this very thing by looking at other countries, at how infrastructure is paid for over what period of time, who pays for it and for how long, and so on. That work will come out of the NEAT and I will publish it shortly."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Albert Dolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Albert Dolan I welcome the enhanced measures that were announced in budget 2027. It is incredible that people who are dependent on the fuel allowance will now qualify for a \u20ac9,000 solar and battery grant. People who are dependent on the working family payment can qualify for that grant. These are the people who need help and who will struggle with their electricity costs this winter. This investment, which is available to them right now, can make a real difference, not for today and not for tomorrow but right into the future. That is the systemic investment the Government can make to support families. Billions are being invested in the grid. Consumers need greater transparency as to how it is going to benefit them. The Minister knows I have been outspoken about solar and wind farms in my constituency and the impact they are having. The benefits of those projects are not being felt on the ground. How can it be translated so that people who bear the costs of this infrastructure can see the benefits in their communities, more than they are now?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Darragh O'Brien That is a fair point. Where people feel there is an over-concentration of certain renewable resources, it puts pressure on a community. All of us know that our way out of fossil fuel dependency is through acceleration of renewable energy. We will continue to do that. To respond on communities, I recently visited Octopus Energy in Britain. Greg Jackson is the CEO and founder. It has gained 8 million customers in ten years. Over there, there are communities looking for wind and solar farms because the tariff changes if it is in your area. You have a flexible system. The community benefit fund, which communities benefit from substantially, is turned into a tariff reduction for people in the area. We need a sophisticated billing and tariff system to do that. That needs to be done and should be done. It will help with buy-in. If I am in an area generating a lot of renewables, I should pay less in energy prices. That work will be done by CRU, ESB Networks and EirGrid. That will come out of the NEAT, which we will publish in the next couple of weeks."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Albert Dolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Albert Dolan I appreciate the Minister's engagement. People want to hear that if they are going to bear this infrastructure, they will be rewarded for it. At times, community benefit funds can be seen as a weapon used to divide communities. While they benefit communities overall, that does not make up for the households that are most immediately impacted. I welcome the Minister's engagement on that. I represent Galway. We are on the west coast. The wind is blowing all the time. How are we going to get offshore wind energy going in Galway? That is one of the big frustrations. A huge number of planning applications have gone in to hit the targets for onshore wind, but we are not seeing the same success with offshore wind, which I think will be more palatable for the people I represent."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darragh O'Brien","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Darragh-O'Brien.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Darragh O'Brien Offshore wind is important. The first phase projects are all in planning. The bond was withheld on Sceirde, which was the scheme in Galway. I still think that area is viable. We are in the middle of work on a national DMAP, which is mapping all of the future sites. The focus is on getting the schemes out of planning. This week, I met one of the ORESS 1 developers of a scheme that is in planning. There has been a request for further information from An Coimisi\u00fan Plean\u00e1la. Many of those requests have been resubmitted. In the coming months, we expect to have some decisions from that. Our focus between now and 2030 is on getting as many of those schemes as possible into construction. Ireland is still a desirable place for offshore wind investment. That is why we had the only successful auction on offshore wind in the European Union last year, which was Tonn Nua. That was the only one. Taking Europe as a Continent, it was one of only two. There was allocation round 7, AR7, in Britain and Tonn Nua in Ireland. We need to show delivery on that. Planning has held that up. That is just a reality. I am not blaming anyone. We need to get those out of planning and into construction."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Energy Prices"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_9","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":false,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_9","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_10","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Wind Energy Generation","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_9","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_9","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_10","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_10.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pa Daly I ask about the offshore wind projects. The Minister touched on it briefly in response to the previous question and the concerns about planning. There was a promise of an offshore wind revolution. There was a target of 5 GW, but we have seen grid bottlenecks, infrastructure and planning delays and the prospect of tearing down our only offshore wind farm before any of the new ones become operational. We have been talking about this for years. Will the Minister tell me what the latest developments are?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Dillon I propose to take Questions Nos. 7 and 23 together. Five phase 1 offshore wind projects are currently in development with planning capacity of 3.8 GW. These projects are located on the east coast, from County Louth down to County Wexford. All five projects submitted planning applications in 2024 and 2025 to An Coimisi\u00fan Plean\u00e1la. I understand it was necessary for An Coimisi\u00fan Plean\u00e1la to make requests for further information in respect of the projects. It has taken some time for the projects to compile this additional information, given the substantial and complex nature of the requests for further information. The first planning determinations from An Coimisi\u00fan Plean\u00e1la are anticipated in the first half of 2027. Subject to planning approval, it is anticipated that some or all of these projects will be in construction by 2030 and operational in the early 2030s. The anticipated decision dates from An Coimisi\u00fan Plean\u00e1la reflect the later initial application submission dates, the response times on the requests for information and the requirement for additional public consultation information submitted. The requests for information and project responses will make for some more robust planning determinations. Elements of the renewable energy directive have been transposed, including a mandatory maximum time limit of 65 weeks for planning decisions related to offshore wind projects. This will benefit future planning applications for offshore wind. The five phase 1 projects are responsible for building the offshore transmission assets to connect their individual projects to the grid. These offshore transmission assets will be built simultaneously with the wind farms by the companies concerned. I am advised that extensive negotiations between EirGrid and the five projects on the details of the offshore transmission assets have been ongoing for some time and are nearing a conclusion. Separately, the 900 MW Tonn Nua project off the coast of Waterford is progressing well since Helvec Head DAC was selected as the auction winner in December 2025. I understand the developer envisages a planning determination by 2030 and an energisation by 2033. Tonn Nua is the first of four development zones from the south coast DMAP being brought to auction. Under the development's phase 2 offshore wind policy, EirGrid, as transmission system operator, is responsible for constructing the offshore transmission assets for Tonn Nua and has committed to making a grid connection available by 2033. Preparations are being undertaken to develop the remaining three south coast DMAP development zones over the coming years. The first of those will be the approximately 1 GW L\u00ed Ban zone. The development has been carrying out site-specific engineering surveys and regional level biological surveys. We are also working with EirGrid to develop grid connection options for L\u00ed Ban. There remain two zones in the south coast DMAP area. The offshore transmission assets will then be developed in tandem with construction of the wind farm's concerns. Separately, the Department is advancing the national DMAP for offshore renewable energy. It will be developed and delivered with regard to a strategic long-term plan for ORE development, which will designate sufficient additional renewable development areas around our coast to facilitate long-term targets of 20 GW. A public consultation on the draft plan is expected to commence early in the new year."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pa Daly I thank the Minister of State. He indicated that the Tonn Nua plan is progressing well and said EirGrid is being consulted and is responsible for having it connected by 2033. I have to tell the Minister of State that there are alarm bells going off in the industry. The ORESS auction for Tonn Nua was held last year. The second site for L\u00ed Ban is coming up next year. Is the Minister of State satisfied that the grid is ready to accept the Tonn Nua and L\u00ed Ban projects and also the Celtic interconnector, which will come ashore at the same place? Is he satisfied that EirGrid will have the necessary grid infrastructure ready to accept these three projects, let alone the other two that will follow? There is concern out there that that might not be the case."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Dillon I thank the Deputy for his question. In relation to grid capacity, it is a priority and is being planned alongside the offshore wind developments. The five phase 1 projects have been issued with provisional grid connection offers and discussions are ongoing between EirGrid and project developers. Those discussions are being advanced. We are also developing connection options for the L\u00ed Ban site, as the Deputy said, and the wider south coast DMAP zones. One of the lessons from other countries is that generation and infrastructure must continue to be planned together. That is precisely the model that we are pursuing in Ireland. The reason that is required is that the planning process and grid capacity need to be prioritised. The Government is investing over \u20ac18 billion in EirGrid over the next five years to ensure we have the grid capacity to bring offshore and onshore into generation. We have also established the offshore wind energy programme, which is providing a whole-of-government delivery framework. The task force has been assigned the task of alleviating challenges. The critically important work of the task force includes looking at planning and grid infrastructure, remediating any of the challenges and having a national co-ordinated programme. The offshore delivery task force is about delivery and ensuring we continue our engagement with An Coimisi\u00fan Plean\u00e1la. It is good that we now have a 65-week time limit for getting a decision. We will continue to work with developers in this regard."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pa Daly To be clear, the auction will take place next year and there is concern that, with the Celtic interconnector and the Tonn Nua and L\u00ed Ban sites, the capacity is not there and the necessary planning is not taking place. Is the Department satisfied that the infrastructure will definitely be in place to take these projects ashore? Not only is it important to give clarity to the developers, but it is also important because the development of offshore wind is essential in reducing energy bills. As the Minister of State will be aware, energy bills are tied into the international gas markets. We need offshore wind. I accept that the companies will have to make a buck out of it. People are waiting for a new offshore revolution which will help them in their struggle with energy bills. To reduce energy prices, it is important that this project takes place on time. The record to date does not instill a huge amount of confidence."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Dillon The Celtic interconnector is being built and the expectation is that it will be energised by 2028. The developers will build the offshore grid projects as their projects advance. The good news is that all five phase 1 projects remain active, with planning applications submitted, and work is continuing on the grid connections in parallel. They are continuing to advance those with EirGrid. The Government continues to engage regularly with the developers to support progress. The question now is whether projects are moving forward, and they are. As I outlined, our priority now is to ensure we continue to work on delivering the independent planning decisions and continue to invest in grid infrastructure capacity. It is anticipated that the first planning determinations will be delivered in quarter 1 or quarter 2 of 2027. Subject to those planning approvals, all of these projects could be in construction before 2030. Alongside the significant work that is under way in regard to the grid infrastructure, these phase 1 projects have provisional grid connection arrangements. The negotiations, as I said, with EirGrid on the offshore transmission infrastructure are nearing a conclusion. We hope to be in a position to progress those. In terms of progressing the Tonn Nua project, over 900 MW off the west coast of Waterford, maritime area consent was secured early this year. That is progressing through detailed surveys and development. I acknowledge the progress that has been made, notwithstanding the challenges that these megaprojects face."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Wind Energy Generation"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_11","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Data Centres","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_9","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_9","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_11","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Donnelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Donnelly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-Donnelly.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_11.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Donnelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Donnelly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-Donnelly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul Donnelly I ask the Minister if he is aware of recent comments made by Ronan Kelly of Digital Infrastructure Ireland and if he agrees with his assessment."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Dillon I thank the Deputy for his question. All development in Ireland must go through an independent and robust statutory planning and regulatory process, and public participation in such processes is important. It is a matter for the relevant independent bodies to make decisions in line with their statutory powers. Developers of individual projects should consider engaging with local communities in advance of engaging in those processes, so that local communities understand their proposal and to address any concerns in advance. It is also important that developers and their representative bodies are able to make the case in public discourse in economic or social terms for their developments, whether housing, business, factories, data centres or other key infrastructure provided by the private sector. The Government continues to prioritise a balanced approach to digital infrastructure. This means supporting investment in cloud, connectivity and data services, while driving national targets in renewable energy, grid efficiency and carbon reduction. This balanced approach is reflective of Government policy, which recognises the role that data centres play as a core digital infrastructure and seeks to enable the twin transition of digitalisation and decarbonisation of our economy and society. The large energy user action plan, published in January 2026, sets out a plan-led approach for very large and energy-intensive investments, including data centres, which, due to their scale and energy consumption, will benefit from co-ordinated national infrastructure planning. The plan-led approach is the first for industry and energy policy, recognising the necessity for both working in tandem in support and continued large-energy user investment in Ireland in the medium to long term."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Donnelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Donnelly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-Donnelly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul Donnelly It is extremely healthy that we are having a public debate around data centres, AI and their impact on our energy networks and communities. However, some of the Minister of State's comments are particularly worrying. He does a disservice to public debate by engaging in reds under the bed or China scaremongering because it disrespects the millions of people across the world, not only here in Ireland, who look at the statistics on the impacts, including visual impacts, that data centres have on their communities. It is worrying that there are people lobbying governments who are backed by trillionaires who are putting vast amounts of money into lobbying. I see that Digital Infrastructure Ireland, which is partnered with a number of data centre firms, says it lobbies to promote Ireland as the best location to host data. It also wants to expand digital infrastructure here so as to host more data centres, having previously lobbied Government Ministers in the Cabinet about connections policy for data centres to the electricity grid. We should also bear in mind that we already have triple the number of data centres as our nearest competitor in the EU and ten times the EU average."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Dillon Again, I am not going to get into a running commentary on comments made by individuals but I will say that while people are entitled to participate in public debate. Planning decisions are made independently on the basis of evidence and law and not public commentary. Communities have an absolute right to engage in the planning process and to have their views heard but the Government has a responsibility to ensure that Ireland can provide the infrastructure necessary for jobs, investment, digital connectivity and public services. That is very much our process and foundation. The Government is very clear that all developments must proceed through an independent, transparent and robust planning and regulatory process. Public participation is at the heart of that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Donnelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Donnelly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-Donnelly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul Donnelly Policy is made by Government. Legislation is made here in this Chamber and planning follows that policy and legislation. We say they are independent but they are making decisions based on policy and legislation made here by the Minister and the Government, following lobbying, which is quite legitimate. The worrying part of Mr. Kelly's statement was where he stated, \"It just moves to the next country, because the investors have the barrel of the gun pointed at all the CEOs and are saying, 'Just get it built', and they\u2019ll go to another country soon enough if they can\u2019t do it here.\" Do billionaires and trillionaires have a gun to the head the Irish Government around policy and legislation in relation to data centres? This country has ten times the European average of data centres."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Dillon The Government has a responsibility to look at both the opportunities and challenges. As I said earlier, data centres are a significant part of our digital economy. The Deputy has not referenced the 180,000 jobs that underpin our digital and services ICT sector. They are closely linked with investment, employment and the wider technological sector. That is crucially important. However, we have been very clear that future development must be sustainable and plan-led. That is the approach we have taken. We have introduced the large-energy user action plan and strengthened the Commission for Regulatory Utilities connection requirements for large-energy users. That approach is not unrestricted growth; our approach is very much managed-led. We want to continue our investment in renewable energy projects. There are strict requirements for large-energy users, these energy-intensive users, to use up to 80% renewable energy."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question No. 9 taken with Written Answers."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Data Centres"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_12","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Energy Prices","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_9","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_9","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_12","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_12.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Keira Keogh What are the measures being taken to reduce energy costs for households across County Mayo and other rural counties and what are the steps being taken to tackle energy poverty in rural communities, particularly among older people and low-income households?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Dillon I propose to take Questions Nos.10, 18, and 21 together. I thank the Deputy for her question. The conflicts in Ukraine and the Middle East have caused significant disruption to international energy markets. This has resulted in high energy prices for households and businesses throughout Europe, including in Ireland. In response, the Government has taken a range of measures to help support consumers across the country with energy costs. The Government has established the national energy affordability task force to examine energy affordability challenges and identify practical measures to support households and businesses. The work of the task force helped to inform key aspects of budget 2027 with a particular focus on the most vulnerable to high-energy costs. A central element of the Government's approach is reducing energy bills through improved energy efficiency and increased deployment of solar PV. Budget 2027 provided a record \u20ac654 million for residential and community project upgrades. This investment will support more households in improving their energy performance and lowering energy consumption, reducing bills and improving comfort while decreasing reliance on imported fossil fuels. The Government continues to support fully-funded energy upgrades for eligible low-income households. Just before the budget, the Minister, Deputy O\u2019Brien, announced a package of measures developed through the work of the national energy affordability task force which will ensure the energy efficiency and renewable supports available through the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI. For households, this package includes a new boiler scrappage scheme and for businesses it includes a temporary increase in the grant support for solar PV installation under the non-domestic microgen grant as well as increased grants for heat pumps and solar thermal installation under the business energy upgrades scheme. These measures will help to build on the progress in retrofitting seen in recent years and support further permanent reductions in household bills. Since 2019, SEAI schemes have provided more than \u20ac2 billion and delivered more than 300,000 home-energy upgrades, including more than 40,800 fully-funded upgrades at risk of energy poverty. Homeowners can save up to \u20ac1,120 per year when they carry out whole-home upgrades. The income tax disregard on microgeneration income received by households who sell electricity back to the grid was also increased by \u20ac200 from \u20ac400 to \u20ac600. Social protection supports are another important component of the Government\u2019s response and budget 2027 increased the weekly rate of the fuel allowance by \u20ac5 to \u20ac43 a week from January 2027. This equates to an additional \u20ac140 in the fuel season and brings the total support provided in a fuel-allowance season to \u20ac2,204. Over the past 12 months, the weekly rate of fuel allowance payable has increased by 30%. Eligibility for the scheme was also extended and from January 2027, the weekly allowance means of a single person aged 66 years or over will be increased. This will allow more single people aged 66 years or over to qualify for the fuel allowance payment. Regarding single adult households and particularly those vulnerable to energy poverty, this measure is expected to build up the 10,000 single pension households. Currently, 463,910 households are eligible for the fuel allowance scheme, representing approximately 26% of all households nationwide. In addition, increases were provided to the living alone allowance and children support scheme, while a new cost-of-disability payment was introduced. These targeted measures will particularly benefit groups at greater risk of energy poverty, including older people, people with disabilities and all low-income households. The Government has also introduced wider measures to help with living costs, including extending the temporary excise reduction into 2027 and reducing carbon tax on home-heating oil and natural gas. This package of temporary fuel supports have cost more than \u20ac1.4 billion to date. In addition, the enhanced rebate scheme will continue until the end of December. That will help to alleviate cost pressures for transport operators and businesses. These decisions will continue to lower inflation, reduce the cost of doing business and support households with their energy bills. A range of protections are in place for consumers experiencing difficulty paying their energy bills. Consumers are encouraged to continue to engage with their suppliers at the earliest opportunity as suppliers offering hardship support and payment arrangements will not disconnect consumers while they are actively engaging with them. The national energy task force is also finalising the energy affordability action plan, which will be submitted to the Government in the coming weeks. This plan will set out a co-ordinated programme of short-, medium- and long-term measures to improve energy affordability, reduce exposure to volatile fossil fuel prices and support households and businesses in managing their energy costs."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Keira Keogh I thank the Minister of State for that comprehensive answer. I know he is as concerned as I am about our constituents in Mayo who are struggling. I welcome the substantial investment in retrofitting, the new grants announced in September and the additional supports through the fuel allowance. However, yesterday's CSO figures show that energy prices have risen by 4.5% in the past month and by 18.3% since last October. In Mayo, especially in rural areas, the housing stock is older. There is also a dispersed population. Those people depend on private transport, notwithstanding the outstanding Local Link service. We also have TFI Anseo in Achill, which is amazing. For families in Mayo, these are not discretionary expenses. They need to heat their homes and they need their cars to get to work, bring children to school and access essential services. Will the Minister of State outline what more we can do? The grants are obviously welcome but upfront costs are prohibitive and the over 22-month wait from application to completed works is a disadvantage."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Dillon I thank the Deputy for reporting the concerns raised by many of her constituents to whom I have also listened intensively. Through the measures in budget 2027, we have delivered a package of measures to help households and businesses with the cost of energy, with a particular focus for those who are at risk of energy property, the most vulnerable and those who are exposed to volatile prices, especially those who are reliant on imported fossil fuels. As I said earlier, we allocated a record \u20ac654 million to the residential and community energy upgrade scheme. That has been a considerable success. It has provided fully funded energy upgrades under the warmer homes scheme. I know that many who have got the work done and have waited patiently as part of the scheme have seen significant benefits in reductions to their household bills while also improving their comfort and well-being. We want that to continue and that is why the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, brought forward a number of additional measures, such as the home boiler scrappage scheme and the grants for battery storage for solar energy. We will continue to work with the SEAI to try to improve the times for delivery and to try to get more contractors into the one-stop shop. I know it is a concern that the Deputy and I have heard. We will continue to work on it. We have also expanded the fuel allowance, which is critical. Many people rely on additional support during the winter period. That is a substantial support to the tune of over \u20ac1,200. That has been increased again by the Government this year, which is welcome. One in four households receives the fuel allowance. It is a targeted measure to support those people on an ongoing basis. In budget 2026, we committed to reducing the VAT rate on gas and electricity to 9%. We have extended that reduction to December 2030. There are challenges. Ireland is a price-taker on the international energy market. It is a difficult situation. We monitor it intensively. The Minister, Deputy O'Brien, will bring forward the action plan from the national energy affordability task force in the coming weeks. He hopes to publish it before the end of the year. Many of those measures formed part of the budget considerations and additional measures will be included."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Keira Keogh I welcome the incoming publication of the recommendations of the national energy affordability task force. I am wondering about the phrase \" in the coming weeks\". A reply to a parliamentary question in September stated that the recommendations would be published in a couple of weeks. It is only five weeks later but we are hearing that it will be another couple of weeks. I would like a firm commitment that the action plan will be published by the end of the year. I, too, have seen the benefits of the warmer homes scheme, as have many of my constituents, especially when they get new windows or doors, or replace their boilers with pumps. Do we need a priority system? Perhaps older adults or younger families in isolated areas, or people living on their own, should get an expedited process. If somebody who in his or her 90th year is waiting for 22 months, it might be too long. I welcome the increase to the fuel allowance. A \u20ac5 increase is substantial but the many people who are just over the threshold for those targeted supports are still struggling."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Dillon I again thank the Deputy for raising this important question. We need to continue to work with SEAI to enhance the programme and the delivery timelines. It is one of the biggest issues that is raised by many Deputies. The Minister, Deputy O'Brien, has convened a working group to see what can be done in that regard. I will come back to the Deputy on the matters she has raised. As a Government, we look forward to bringing forward the measures in the national energy affordability task force. The Minister mentioned earlier to Opposition Deputies what will be contained in those recommendations and how we can continue to enhance energy affordability for households and businesses. That task force is working intensively on the action plan. As I said earlier, it will be delivered by the end of the year. The focus will be on price, energy poverty, customer protections, energy affordability for businesses, sustainable demand and flexibility. As the Minister said earlier, plug-in solar PV is another opportunity to support households. The expectation is that we would continue the regulatory review and look at further implementation of it in early 2027. That will be another opportunity for households to use a renewable source for electricity generation. That is where we should be going in using innovative technology to broaden households' ability to drive down energy costs, along with the SEAI home upgrades."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Energy Prices"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_13","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"North-South Interconnector","counts":{"speechCount":8,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_9","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_9","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_13","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Maxwell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_13.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Maxwell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy David Maxwell I would like an update on the North-South interconnector. I am seeking an update on the current status of the project, particularly regarding the Government's position on the proposed overhead route. This has been an ongoing issue for the past 20 years in counties Monaghan and Meath. There is a lot of anxiety in the counties concerned. I would like the Minister of State to make a statement on the matter."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Dillon I propose to take Questions Nos. 11 and 14 together. The North-South interconnector is one of the most important electricity transmission projects under way in the State. The Government fully supports its delivery. It will link the electricity networks of Ireland and Northern Ireland, leading to more secure, affordable and sustainable supply of electricity across the island. The European network of transmission system operators currently estimates that the project will deliver a cost saving of \u20ac120 million per annum to households and businesses across the island of Ireland by 2040. The North-South interconnector is an excellent example of the critical infrastructure that the Government is determined to accelerate. In July, the Government designated the North-South interconnector, along with Moneypoint's 400 kV series capacitor and the Letterkenny 110 kV station redevelopment as critical infrastructure under the Critical Infrastructure Act. Since their designations, the Moneypoint and Letterkenny projects have both received grants of planning and are progressing towards delivery. The North-South interconnector is awaiting a decision from the relevant local authorities in respect of the discharge of planning conditions. Having engaged directly with the council on the criticality of the project, I am aware that acceleration efforts are under way to include the appointment of a project co-ordinator. I look forward to the start of construction of this project once the planning condition has been discharged. Regarding community engagement, the North-South interconnector is being undertaken by EirGrid, including design and operations of the transmission system. As the project developer, it has been engaging and continues to engage with the affected landowners and communities along the route. This is in line with what the Government expects of EirGrid and is aligned with the 2012 Government policy statement on the strategic importance of transmission and other energy infrastructure. The Deputies will be aware, as I am, that there is some local opposition to the project and in particular to the fact it is being delivered as an overhead line. EirGrid, as the project developer, has determined the project must be delivered as an overhead line and the Government has accepted the expert opinion. The notion of undergrounding the project has been comprehensively assessed on several occasions dating back to 2008, with corresponding independent reports published finding an overhead line is the most appropriate means of delivery. Most recently, in March 2023 the Government noted and published an independent report into the project that concluded it was not feasible to run the North-South interconnector underground, thereby confirming the 2018 report remains valid. However, public support is key in enabling delivery of the project and this is why it plays such a crucial role in EirGrid's plan. In March EirGrid wrote to affected landowners to update them on the project and outlining that ESB, as owner of the electricity grid, had decided to progress the project using its statutory wayleave powers for the placement of cables and pylons on the required land. EirGrid again updated landowners in October and funding for the project has been provided by the CRU's price review 6. Decisions will be made in regard to recouping that cost through network tariffs."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Maxwell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy David Maxwell In recent weeks I, along with other Oireachtas Members, met with the councillors and the executive of Monaghan County Council to discuss this project and the significant concerns being raised locally. There are serious objections from the communities who will be directly affected by the proposed overgrounding of the interconnector. These concerns cannot be ignored. I served on Monaghan County Council and councillors from all political parties and none were united in the position that the interconnector should be underground. There has always been a strong belief locally that this is the fairest and most appropriate solution. I also emphasise the importance of meaningful and proper consultation between EirGrid and the communities affected. People deserve to be listened to, have their concerns taken seriously and be given clear answers. I thank the Minister of State for the update on where the project currently stands but we need to address the concerns of the communities in counties Monaghan and Meath."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Darren O'Rourke I share those real concerns as a TD for Meath. The Minister of State's response has similarities to what we have been hearing for years. He said there was \"some local opposition\" but there is massive local opposition to this project. Fundamental to that is overgrounding versus undergrounding the project has not been appropriately assessed. The Minister of State pointed to the report from 2023 but it does not say it is not viable to go underground and it is very critical of EirGrid and how it has conducted its analysis over the years. Until we get that issue addressed, there will not be community support for this. If an adequate review is done it will show undergrounding is viable and this project can be delivered."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Dillon I thank Deputies Maxwell and O'Rourke for raising these concerns. I am aware of how sensitive it is in both their constituencies and will certainly relay those concerns to the Minister and the Department. In my initial reply, I said the option of undergrounding has been comprehensively assessed by means of independent reports and expert analysis and several independent reports on the project have been published going back to 2008. I think we are all in agreement on how critical this project is to Ireland's energy security. Regarding the themes that have emerged from the reports, one is that the undergrounding of the project would be up to three times more expensive than the overhead option and another is that the overhead line is the most appropriate option from a technical perspective. The project would benefit so many people in regard to Ireland's energy security. Undergrounding has not provided the system stability and reliability benefits overhead lines have provided. This has been referenced on many occasions but we are not going to solve it on the floor of the House. I am sure the Deputies have extensively assessed the many reports that have been published. EirGrid will continue to engage with the local authorities and the landowners as part of community engagement, which is key for an successful project to be delivered."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Maxwell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy David Maxwell Over the last 20 years, we have assessed a number of reports but in September 2020, following the restoration of the power-sharing Executive, the then Minister for Infrastructure, Nichola Mallon, granted planning permission for the overground section. Construction has started, including tower work, etc., with final energisation expected around October 2031. Local campaign groups in Armagh and Tyrone continue legal challenges and raise concerns over the visual impact and pylon placement, with undergrounding being repeatedly rejected by independent reviews due to stability and reliability. In an answer to me, the then Minister, John O'Dowd of Sinn F\u00e9in, wrote that he could not undo the grant by Ms Mallon due to the possible monetary implications. This is before the courts in Northern Ireland and if they find in favour of the undergrounding of the Northern Ireland section, what will our position be for counties Monaghan and Meath? Could we have the Northern section underground and the southern section overground? Farmers and landowners are resolute in their opposition to the overgrounding of this line and that has been the case since 2006 when this project was first presented. At this late stage, I ask those concerns to be looked at again."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Darren O'Rourke Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an Aire St\u00e1it. My deep concern about this project is that Government is being led by EirGrid on it when EirGrid has an incredibly bad track record with this project in particular, and it is exceptional in its approach to this project. The idea we have extended powers now through the Critical Infrastructure Act is completely the wrong approach. This project will not be delivered by forcing it through, such is the level of local opposition. I have a request for the Minister of State. The 2023 report is 25 pages long. I ask him to read it because what he is saying from the Department's notes does not reflect what is in that report. There is a way forward here and it involves an independent assessment of overgrounding versus undergrounding. If that happens I believe it will point towards undergrounding and this project can be delivered. Otherwise we are on the road to nowhere."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Dillon Again, I think we all appreciate the importance of this project. It is a critical infrastructure project which the Government is committed to delivering. The project has been highlighted as part of the Accelerating Infrastructure Report and Action Plan. That includes \u20ac100 million in savings electricity users on the island can expect to see once the project is delivered. It is expected to be energised by October 2031. It is progressing. It is going to happen. Engagement is ongoing between EirGrid, ESB Networks and the relevant local authorities in regard to their discharge with the required documentation. The planning conditions are commencing and construction is commencing. It is critical it be delivered and benefit all of Ireland in regard to our electrification process."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"North-South Interconnector"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_14","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Energy Policy","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_9","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_9","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_14","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_14.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pa Daly Chun an taifead a cheart\u00fa, bh\u00edomar ag caint n\u00edos luaithe mar gheall ar Tonn Nua agus d\u00faramar \u201cL\u00ed B\u00e1n\u201d. Just to correct the record, it is L\u00ed Ban, which is, of course, the name of a mermaid. Another myth, of course, has been that we were unable to tackle windfall profits of energy companies in this country. EU climate Commissioner Wopke Hoekstra recently said that member states are able to take measures to tackle energy companies and introduce a windfall tax. Will the Minister of State do that? Other countries have recognised this can be done. Will the Government take any action on it?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Dillon The major disruption to global energy supply due to the situation in Iran and the Middle East is reflected in extremely volatile commodity prices over the past number of months. This has resulted in high energy prices for households and businesses across Europe, including Ireland. Officials in my Department and other relevant Departments continue to closely monitor developments to assess their impact on Ireland, as well as develop appropriate responses. There are a number of practical and administrative challenges in designing and introducing an effective windfall tax or market revenue cap, particularly in the absence of an EU-wide measure. When introducing any measure, particularly in the context of global crises, policymakers must strike a balance between addressing affordability and distributional concerns in the immediate term and safeguarding long-term objectives, such as energy security, investment certainty for our future energy system and the pace of decarbonisation. It is important to evaluate and consider the unintended consequences that may arise from the implementation of a windfall tax or market revenue cap, including long-term effects on investment, market behaviour and energy supply. The Government proactively established the national energy affordability task force to examine energy affordability changes and identify practical measures to support households and businesses. The work of the task force has helped inform key aspects of budget 2027, with a focus on those most vulnerable and at highest risk. Budget 2027 provided a record \u20ac654 million for residential and community home upgrades. The investment will support households to improve energy performance of their homes, lower energy consumption and reduce bills. The task force is finalising this action plan and it is due for publication."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pa Daly To allow my colleague, Deputy Ward, to get in, I will put a very short question. The cap on market revenues measure was operational for about six months. There is \u20ac170 million of that money still lying in the coffers of the Government. Why has that not been spent? Are there any plans to spend it?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Dillon I do not have that detail on me but will certainly furnish the Deputy with it."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Energy Policy"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_15","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Data Centres","counts":{"speechCount":2,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_9","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_9","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_15","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_15.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mark Ward I ask for an update on the use of data centres in Dublin. We are seeing electricity bills going up for ordinary families while companies which make billions in profits every year pay a lower rate. We also see environmental factors like noise pollution in our communities. Will the Minister of State say a few words on that?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Dillon I thank the Deputy for his question. The Commission for Regulation of Utilities, CRU, is responsible for the regulation of security of electricity supply, including ensuring electricity systems can meet growing demand and manage impacts on consumer and system costs. The electricity network tariff set out by the CRU to recover the cost of developing, operating and maintaining the electricity grid funds a grid that is more resilient to storms and can supply electricity to a growing population, new houses and expanding businesses. The CRU advises that extra-large energy users like data centres have in recent years increased network costs, with average increases of 175% compared with a 45% increase in domestic customers from 2020 to 2026. The CRU is progressing a multi-annual energy network tariff review project to reform network charges to ensure costs are fairly distributed across different consumers. Our digital economy is our core energy-intensive sector and makes a significant contribution to our direct economy, including tax revenue and jobs. Data centres are fundamental to this and to Ireland's position as a leading global hub for digital and technological enterprise. They form a core part of the State's digital infrastructure, supporting critical activities and services. CSO analysis indicates data centres accounted for around 23% of Ireland's electricity demand in 2025. They account for roughly half of metered consumption in the Dublin-Meath region, according to the CRU, given the concentration of data centres in that area. The Government continues to work with the regulator and electricity system operators to assess and support expected demand on the systems, including economic and population growth, housing, electric vehicles and heat pump capacity."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Data Centres"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_16","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":false,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_16","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_17","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Childcare Services","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_16","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_16","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_17","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Claire Kerrane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_17.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Claire Kerrane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Claire Kerrane I had not copped this question was edited. The question was to explain the budget announcement as regards the reduction of childcare fees from \u20ac750 to \u20ac550. The reasons for any reduction are quite obvious - we need to reduce childcare costs - but will the Minister of State explain specifically the reduction announced on budget day of a reduction to \u20ac550 per month?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister of State at the Department of Children, Disability and Equality (Deputy Emer Higgins) I thank the Deputy for agreeing with the Minister, Deputy Foley, that it was okay for me to take this question on her behalf. Government is committed to reducing fees to a maximum of \u20ac200 per month over the lifetime of the Government. Several steps have been taken last year and this year to reduce costs for parents, with further measures announced in budget 2027. Measures that will come into effect in September 2027 include a lowering of fee caps for core funding partner services and increased national childcare scheme subsidies. As a result, many parents will see further reductions in the amount they pay for early learning and childcare. Later this year, the Minister will publish shaping the future, phase 2, which will set out the roadmap for how the \u20ac200 commitment will be achieved. From September 2027, the maximum fees that providers in receipt of core funding can charge will be reduced across all fee bands. All services with fees below the new caps will continue to be subject to existing fee controls. At the same time, the universal subsidy for children up to and including senior infants will rise to \u20ac2.50 per hour, or \u20ac112.50 for 45 hours per week, while changes will also be made to income-assessed subsidies. The universal rate of \u20ac2.14 per hour, or \u20ac96.30 for 45 hours per week, will continue to be available to all children from first class up to 15 years of age. It is worth noting that it would be highly unusual for a school-age child in first class or above to need more than 40 hours of early learning and childcare during term time, given they would already likely be in a school setting for 25 hours or more per week. As regards the figure of \u20ac550 per month, that will be the maximum fee for a child receiving the maximum 45 hours of State subsidy for a 45-hour place."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Claire Kerrane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Claire Kerrane The first issue is that it was announced that childcare fees were going to fall to \u20ac550. Certainly, I heard from countless parents, \"Is this me? Am I now paying \u20ac550 from next September?\" The questions are obvious. What about those who are paying more than \u20ac750 a month, of which there are a considerable number? If this is how the Government is going to reduce childcare fees, and that is via core funding and limiting and capping fees that way, then we are not going to deliver \u20ac200 per month childcare for everybody because it will only be for people whose providers are in core funding. We have heard about this roadmap for almost two years. The general election was two years ago. The Minister of State's party leader committed to a roadmap within the first 100 days. We are well beyond that. We do not know how the Government is going to achieve \u20ac200 a month childcare. Based on this, it is really concerning as to how it is going to be achieved. When will that roadmap be published?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Higgins That roadmap is currently being worked on and it will be published later this year. In the next six to eight weeks, the Minister, Deputy Foley, will publish that roadmap. As regards the figure of \u20ac550 per month, that is the maximum fee for a child receiving the maximum 45 hours of State subsidy for a 45-hour place. The maximum parental payment for a child up to the end of senior infants who is receiving 45 hours of universal subsidy per week will fall from \u20ac183.70 per week to \u20ac137.50, which is \u20ac550 over a four-week period. That amounts to a saving of more than \u20ac2,200 a year. The Deputy is correct that many families take more than 40 hours of childcare. For example, when it comes to the 50 hours per week or more, the maximum fee for a core funding partner will be lowered from \u20ac336 per week to \u20ac300 per week. When that is combined with the increase in the universal national childcare scheme change from \u20ac2.14 to \u20ac2.50 per hour, a family being charged the maximum fee for 50 or more hours - band B and F - will save more than \u20ac52 per week. That is \u20ac2,500 over a 48-week year."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Claire Kerrane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Claire Kerrane I hope the Minister and her Department will be able to provide a figure for how many parents will see this reduction of \u20ac750 to \u20ac550. The Department should have the data on the number of parents who will benefit. Again, I am really concerned, if we are looking at this through core funding, how we are ever going to achieve \u20ac200 a month universally. There are lots of parents where their providers are outside of core funding. They are paying \"sky's the limit\" in terms of the amount per month. My last point in relation to the roadmap when we eventually see it, which will hopefully be before the end of the year as the Minister of State said, is that roadmap cannot just be about cost and affordability for parents. We are wasting our time if that does not come with building capacity, building places and the workforce. Some counties have a workforce turnover of up to 30%, 40% and almost 50%. We need to respect and recognise the educated workforce and professional workforce that are there and we need to pay them properly. That is not happening. The roadmap needs to do all three."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Higgins Too many parents are paying too much for childcare. For many parents and families, their childcare bill is additional pressure. The Government knows this, accepts this and wants to change this. That is why we have committed to reducing childcare fees to \u20ac200 per month over the lifetime of this Government. It is why the Minister, Deputy Foley, has tasked the Department with devising a roadmap that will be published in the coming weeks on how to achieve that. It is why childcare received such a huge investment in this year's budget. What that means for parents is a reduction in the fees that they pay. On top of this, the Government is also invested to ensure better access to childcare. That is why we are investing in both existing providers to help them expand so they can offer more places and why we are also supporting a new State-led facilities scheme. This year, \u20ac135 million was provided for what is a groundbreaking initiative to help acquire or fit out childcare as a State-led programme. So far, seven projects have been approved on that. We also have the building block extension grant scheme, which is in operation to provide existing childcare facilities the opportunity to build and expand places."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Childcare Services"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_18","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Early Childhood Care and Education","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_16","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_16","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_18","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Daniel Ennis","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Daniel-Ennis.D.2026-05-25","memberCode":"Daniel-Ennis.D.2026-05-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_18.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Daniel Ennis","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Daniel-Ennis.D.2026-05-25","memberCode":"Daniel-Ennis.D.2026-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Daniel Ennis The cost of childcare is affecting families across the country. For many, it is like paying their second mortgage. Parents in Ireland are paying the highest rates of childcare fees in Europe. It is putting huge pressure and strain on families. Particularly in my constituency of Dublin Central, I speak to so many and they are not seeing or feeling that reduction; they are feeling the strain. They will not see when it comes in the post next September. How many childcare providers will see a decrease in fees from additional allocations made in budget 2027?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Higgins I thank the Deputy very much. I am taking this on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Foley, who cannot be with us this morning. From September 2027, the maximum fees that early learning and childcare providers in receipt of core funding can charge will be reduced across all bands with the maximum fee cap for band B and E reducing from \u20ac280 to \u20ac250 per week and all other bands being proportionally reduced. The majority of services have fees below the new caps and will continue to be subject to existing fee management controls. Core funding is a supply-side grant to early learning and childcare providers towards their operating costs. It is designed to promote affordability for parents and sustainability for providers through increased funding to the sector paid on a consistent and equitable basis. A key condition of receiving the significant State funding that is available through the scheme requires that a partner service adheres to the core funding fee management system, which includes a freeze on fees at 2021 levels and fee caps. This is to ensure that the State\u2019s significant investment through the scheme is not absorbed by unnecessary fee increases. These fee management conditions of the core funding scheme apply exclusively to partner services who have signed a core funding agreement. These requirements are not applicable to services which remain outside of the core funding scheme. For the programme year 2026-27, the fee tables of all partner services will be subject to the review and approval of their childcare committees. This will help further with the simplification and standardisation of fee tables for all partner services. Additionally, all fee tables will be validated against their original fee tables, or fees charged if these differ, which have been in place since the fee freeze on 30 September 2021. This is to confirm adherence to the fee freeze as part of the core funding rules and will also ensure the Department has access to accurate data on the fees charged by all partner services, while verifying their adherence to the fee freeze. Following the review by county childcare committees, a comprehensive assessment using 2026 and 2027 service and fee information will be completed, providing a more accurate and complete assessment of the sector-wide impact of the 2027 fee caps. This work is scheduled for completion in the first quarter of next year, depending on data availability. Previous year four analysis was based on 2026 fee data and does not represent a complete picture of the services operating in the current 2026-27 core funding year that may be affected by the fee cap. However, the comprehensive assessment using 2026-27 service and fee information will provide the more detailed insights into the impact of the proposed fee caps."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Daniel Ennis","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Daniel-Ennis.D.2026-05-25","memberCode":"Daniel-Ennis.D.2026-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Daniel Ennis The Minister of State mentioned core funding. If your childcare provider is not in core funding, the \u20ac550 per month cap will not apply. If your child is in childcare for more than 50 hours in one week, the \u20ac550 per month cap will not apply. If your child is in first class or above, the \u20ac550 per month cap will not apply. Again, in my own constituency, we have some of the highest levels in the country of providers not in core funding. It is some of the highest prices of anywhere in the country and anywhere in Europe. The Government said a key priority in this budget was making early learning and childcare more affordable for families, yet for so many families nothing is going to change from them. I am one of those families. In the playground beside the cr\u00e8che, I am talking to so many families who are scratching their heads and saying, \"We are not going to benefit from that.\" They are going to continue to pay astronomical fees for childcare and they will continue to struggle. A lot of them are keen to find a childcare space. I cannot help but use the phrase that the Minister of State is misleading us here. The \u20ac550 per month cap is misleading us. It is throwing money at a burning house."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Higgins These reductions are for people availing of places subsidised through core funding. That means it applies to 4,700 services or to 92% of all eligible providers. They will receive an increase in core funding, which will also include support for potential increases in wages for early years and childcare professionals. I appreciate the Deputy said a high number of providers in his constituency do not avail of core funding. This year, eight childcare providers across the country withdrew from core funding, three of which rejoined the scheme. The trend of rejoining is consistent with previous years' trajectories. We want providers in the scheme because we want to be able to support them and reduce the cost for parents. From a parent's perspective, being in the scheme means lower fee limits and increased subsidies. That will help with childcare bills."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Daniel Ennis","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Daniel-Ennis.D.2026-05-25","memberCode":"Daniel-Ennis.D.2026-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Daniel Ennis Again, I have to go back to the cap of \u20ac550 for 45 hours' service based on the most popular contract the Minister of State mentioned in her response. When we met providers after the budget, we were told such contracts will only impact 18% of the sector. What about the other 82%? What about the families who are struggling? For me and them, the budget is beyond disappointing. Childcare providers have said that the Government's announcement was intentionally misleading. Most people I have spoken to are of that thought. The Government has also chosen to focus on the 45-hour per week contract because after that the subsidies in the national childcare scheme no longer apply. That is all fairly obvious. The monthly cap for families in this band is over a third higher than the promised \u20ac550 per month. Families not affected by fee caps will see a reduction of only \u20ac16.20 in their bills each week. Everyone in the Chamber would agree that is simply not enough for many families. Again, we would all agree that the Government is not doing enough."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Higgins I agree that many parents are paying too much for childcare. This is something the Minister, Deputy Foley, who has responsibility for this, is determined to help change. That is why the Government has committed to reducing childcare fees to \u20ac200 per month over the lifetime of the Government. It is why the Minister has tasked the Department with devising a roadmap on how to achieve that,which will be published in the coming weeks. It is why childcare received such a huge injection of investment in this year's budget. We want to support parents by bringing down fees. The Deputy mentioned bands and the number of hours involved. I want to be clear. Parents who are availing of 40 to 50 hours of childcare will pay a maximum of \u20ac250 per month, which is a saving of \u20ac2,200 over the course of the year. Parents in receipt of 50 hours or more of childcare will pay a maximum of \u20ac300 per week, equating to \u20ac2,500 worth of savings over a year."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Early Childhood Care and Education"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_19","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Mother and Baby Homes","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_16","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_16","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_19","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Claire Kerrane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_19.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Claire Kerrane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Claire Kerrane I ask about the review that has commenced regarding the mother and baby institutions payment scheme. This long-awaited review appears to have commenced on 19 October, something we learned when the special advocate came before our committee last week. She had not been notified that the review was about to commence, nor was any Member of the House or Oireachtas committee members, something I find very unusual given this has been long-awaited and was part of the legislation. Will the Minister of State provide us with an update on the review?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Higgins I thank the Deputy. I will read out the update provided by the Minister, Deputy Foley. The mother and baby institutions payment scheme opened for applications in March 2024. As of 25 October 2026, over 7,800 applications had been received. To date, more than 6,800 notices of determination have issued and payments totalling some \u20ac84 million have been made to applicants. Over 2,900 applicants have qualified for health benefits, including either a medical card for life for those living in Ireland or health support payments for those living abroad. At the end of August, a new public information campaign commenced and I am pleased to report that this appears to have generated a substantial increase in applications over the last two months. Applications have increased from a monthly average of 56 in the first seven months of the year to a monthly average of 178 in September and October. In total, 417 new applications have been received since the campaign commenced. While the current 12-week campaign is scheduled to conclude later this month, we may look to extend this into 2027 in keeping with our commitment to raising awareness. Outreach and communication activities will also continue for the remainder of the scheme to maximise awareness and encourage eligible individuals to come forward and apply. The underpinning legislation for the scheme provides for a number of reports and reviews to be produced. Section 48 of the Mother and Baby Institutions Payment Scheme Act 2023 provides for two reviews of the operation of the scheme, the first of which is to take place around the scheme's midpoint. The scope of the review is prescribed in the Act. It will focus on administrative and operational aspects of the scheme. It will consider issues such as the level of uptake of the scheme, the experience of applicants, the extent to which payments have been made and if the scheme is achieving its purpose as set out by the Oireachtas. The Act does not provide for the review to consider the scheme's scope or eligibility criteria because those matters were already determined by the Oireachtas during the legislative process."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Claire Kerrane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Claire Kerrane The Minister has repeatedly said eligibility will not be part of the review. It should be, given that the scheme is coming up to its third year and \u20ac800 million was the figure cited at the start of the process. A total of \u20ac84 million has been paid out and money has been returned at the end of every year. At the same time, survivors in other institutions are not included because of the name of the institution concerned. Others are impacted by the six-month rule. Some were boarded out and have received nothing apart from an apology on the floor of the D\u00e1il. That is not much use to them. They are not being recognised. The Government is handing back unspent money and excluding and splitting survivors into those who were in certain institutions who will receive redress and those who were in other institutions and suffered the same treatment, if not more, but do not matter and are left out. The review needs to examine eligibility because survivors will pass away having received no recognition or respect from the State. It is not acceptable or good enough. I again ask that the review examine eligibility."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Higgins I thank the Deputy for her feedback on the scope of the review, which I will pass on to the Minister, Deputy Foley. To update the House on the review, the initial steps in the process include the establishment of a working group to oversee the review. The Minister, Deputy Foley, was keen to appoint an independent external chair to this working group in order to support rigorous and objective oversight. To that end, the Minister recently secured a person with the expertise and experience needed to take on this role. This has enabled membership of the working group to be finalised. I understand this happened in the past day or so and the Minister will write to the Oireachtas committee to confirm the full membership of the working group. The review will include detailed statistical assessment, business processes analysis and a comprehensive survey of applicant experience overseen by the working group and also independently quality assured. When completed, the Minister will, of course, ensure the report will be laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Claire Kerrane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Claire Kerrane It would be helpful to know why the review has commenced so quietly. The special advocate, whose number one responsibility was to be the voice of survivors, was not informed that the review was about to commence; she was told after the fact. That makes no sense and needs to be rectified as quickly as possible. The same special advocate has completed her first report. Her number one recommendation was the urgent expansion of the scheme. The mother and baby institutions redress scheme should be about all survivors, not just some. I have cited Michael Grant, who spent the first year of his life in Temple Hill. According to the Department, it is deemed a hospital, yet his birth mother paid rent for him to remain there for the first year of his life. That is not a hospital. He had no medical issues. I cannot tell the Minister of State how hard it is to sit across from Michael Grant and try to tell him he will not receive redress due to the fact the institution concerned is not on the list. It is unacceptable and needs to be rectified. Survivors will pass away and money will not be spent when it should be. The scheme should include all survivors."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Higgins I thank the Deputy for her feedback on the scope. She referenced the special advocate. The Minister informs me that she met the special advocate on several occasions and greatly values her views and insights. Officials in the Department have monthly meetings with the special advocate to discuss operational, promotional and other aspects of the scheme, aiming always to improve the scheme operations and communications. I understand that the special advocate has agreed to be part of the working group overseeing the review. The Minister looks forward to her important contribution in that regard. As part of the preparatory work for the review, a survey questionnaire designed to assess applicants' experience of the payment scheme has been developed. An early draft of that questionnaire was shared with the special advocate for survivors for review. Her feedback and observations were valuable inputs and have been integrated into the questionnaire. Continued engagement with the special advocate is an important means of ensuring the voices of survivors continue to be central, as the Deputy said."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Mother and Baby Homes"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_20","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Childcare Services","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_16","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_16","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_20","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_20.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mark Wall Given the recent announcement of seven new sites for public childcare, can the Minister provide an update on the public sites for pilot childcare schemes for Newbridge and Kilcullen in County Kildare?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Higgins Improving access to high-quality and affordable early learning and childcare is a priority for the Government. Overall, early learning and childcare capacity is increasing. Data from the annual early years sector profile in 2025 shows that the estimated number of enrolments had increased by 25% in the previous three years. In Kildare specifically, there was a 31% increase in enrolments in that period. Earlier this year, the Minister announced \u20ac135 million in capital investment in buildings for high-quality, accessible State-led early learning and childcare up to 2030. This is a ground-breaking initiative for Government and it began this year. Capital funding will be used to acquire and-or fit out buildings, depending on requirements. On 30 September, the Minister announced the proposed locations for the first new early learning and childcare facilities to be developed and delivered under the State-led early learning and childcare capital programme. The Department has received project proposals from a number of sources since the programme was launched. These projects are in very different stages of development. Some relate to existing buildings ready to be occupied or fitted out, while others are longer term prospects for future years. Not all proposals align with the programme objectives. Some projects are proposed by an existing early learning and childcare service provider, while others relate to a building or property only, for which a separate process to identify an operator would be required. The Department has a long list of projects under consideration, which includes project proposals received through preliminary appraisal forms from city and county childcare committees. I am advised that no project has yet been brought forward from either Newbridge or Kilcullen and no formal proposal has been made from County Kildare via the submission of a preliminary appraisal form, which would be done through the Kildare County Childcare Committee. The Department is aware that the long list it maintains is not an exhaustive list of all projects that could form part of this programme of investment. It continues to invite proposals for projects and seek potential projects for consideration."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mark Wall I thank the Minister of State. The reason I have tabled this question again is that only 4% of providers in County Kildare are community run, the lowest rate in the whole country. When I raised this with the Minister previously I asked her how we should go about changing that, given that childcare is such an important issue throughout County Kildare, in particular, in Newbridge and Kilcullen. The Minister of State will be glad to learn that since that discussion with the Minister, we have worked with a number of community providers and next week, we will submit a new application for Newbridge which will, hopefully, secure the approval of the Department. Newbridge is one of the major towns with a population of over 25,000 people where there is a dearth of childcare providers and are places. That needs to be addressed. We are also working with another community provider in Kilcullen to try to get a facility over the line, given the lack of facilities in County Kildare."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Higgins I thank Deputy Wall for the update. It is very encouraging to hear. To be clear, local city and county childcare committees are supporting the development of projects. In the first instance, community early learning and childcare operators, local authorities, developers or anyone else who has suitable premises or projects should contact their local city and county childcare committee and submit a preliminary appraisal form. It is fantastic news that Deputy Wall is at an advanced stage with the operator in Newbridge. I suggest he go directly to the Kildare County Childcare Committee for support for the preliminary appraisal. It is also positive to hear he is having good discussions in Kilcullen. That project should go the same route. I know the Deputy is particularly interested in community childcare. Given the growing population in County Kildare, he should note that the Department provides capital funding under the building blocks extension grant scheme to support expansion of capacity by existing providers. That would, of course, include any providers in County Kildare."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mark Wall The other issue I raised with the Minister previously is that parents who contact me do not have the ability to do what we have been able to do with a community provider over the past couple of weeks. The answer the Minister gave me the previous day was that we go to the city and county childcare committees. Navigating that process is not an option for many hard-working parents who find it very difficult to secure childcare. I ask again that the Government work with those parents who are contacting me and every other public representative here, work with the childcare committees and reach out to areas where there is a lack of childcare. We all know where these areas are because the Minister has told me. Parents just do not have the time. The childcare committees need to engage with parents in those areas where there is a lack of childcare. We need to make it easier for parents, who are now travelling great distances, as I have said before. In one instance, I know of parents who travel from Kilcullen to Kilkenny every morning to access childcare. That is a journey of about an hour and a half each way. That is what is happening on the ground. We need to make it easier for parents to get more childcare places."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Higgins Yes, we do. The Government is committed not only to reducing the cost of childcare, but also to increasing access to childcare. That is why we have invested in existing providers, to help them expand and offer more places, and in this new State-led facility. We provided \u20ac135 million this year to help State-led providers to acquire or fit out buildings. Seven projects have been approved under that scheme. We will continue to grow that list year on year. For this reason, it is important that the Kildare County Childcare Committee submit a form to us. In addition, we are also investing in the building blocks extension grant scheme to provide extra places. Two extension projects will be delivered in County Kildare under this scheme. When complete, these two projects will deliver 70 quality, affordable places in Kildare. That is another example of investing in childcare in Kildare."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Childcare Services"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_21","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Early Childhood Care and Education","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_16","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_16","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_21","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aisling Dempsey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_21.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Higgins The 2001 planning guidelines for local authorities on childcare facilities were issued under section 28 of the Planning and Development Act 2000 by the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage. The guidelines are intended to ensure a consistent approach to the treatment of planning applications in respect of the land use planning aspects of early learning and childcare provision. The programme for Government commits to reviewing the guidelines to ensure sufficient and appropriate early learning and childcare places are provided and operationalised. The Planning and Development Act 2024, the revised national planning framework and the ongoing work on Shaping the Future, the phase 2 action plan for the early learning and childcare sector, provide the foundation for this work. Successor guidance for local authorities and childcare facilities will take the form of a national planning statement to be made by the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage under that Act. In order to progress the programme for Government commitment, an early learning and childcare planning matters working group was established in 2024 and has met a number of times since. It includes officials from the Department of Children, Disability and Equality, the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the Department of Education and Youth. Members of the group have also met with local authority planning officials, nominated by the County and City Management Association planning and land use committee, to identify considerations for the review. These include ensuring that buildings required by the guidelines meet the needs of the local population and are fit for purpose and balancing the need to ensure sufficient provision for children and families, regardless of the size or housing type of the development, with ensuring that buildings are effectively operated as intended. They will inform part of a wider engagement with local authorities and other stakeholders, which is at planning stage."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aisling Dempsey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Aisling Dempsey I really welcome the Minister of State's update. It is very important that the Department of children should be a designated prescribed body in respect of planning applications by housing developers. I see in my area of Meath West how necessary and how positive is the delivery of childcare facilities in housing developments. Cookies Early Learning Centre in Athboy, which I visited shortly before it opened, is a great example of a developer-delivered high-quality childcare facility. Little Harvard is to open a facility in Effernock in Trim in the new year, which is more eagerly anticipated than Christmas by the residents there with young children. It is important to ensure developers are delivering childcare infrastructure in the way they should. Does the Department have access to fully up-to-date and accurate data on childcare needs in particular areas? Will the officials talk to the city and county childcare committees before they respond to planning applications?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Higgins The Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage has confirmed that the Minister for Children, Disability and Equality will be designated as a prescribed body to be notified by planning authorities of planning applications where it appears that the development would likely give rise to significant additional demand for early learning and childcare provision. That change will be given effect in regulations to be made by the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage under the 2024 Act following the commencement of the relevant sections of the Act. The Department of housing recently advised that the process of commencement has, unfortunately, been deferred due to circumstances beyond its control. We are engaging very tightly with that Department on this matter. It is very important that our Department be made a prescribed body. As the Deputy rightly said, city and county childcare committees, local authorities and, indeed, my Department need access to information, which would include data on child benefit payments and births. There is a wealth of information out there that should be available to guide decisions relevant to demographic changes in different areas."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Cheann Comhairle I welcome the young students and their teachers in the Public Gallery. I hope they enjoy their day in Leinster House."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Early Childhood Care and Education"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_22","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":false,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_22","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_23","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Disability Services","counts":{"speechCount":7,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_22","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_22","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_23","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Roche","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Roche.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Peter-Roche.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_23.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Question No. 81 in the name of Deputy Brennan will be asked by Deputy Roche."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Roche","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Roche.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Peter-Roche.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peter Roche I thank Deputy Brennan for affording me the opportunity to ask the Minister of State about recruitment and retention in child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS, the National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS, and children's disability network teams, CDNTs, and of special educational needs organiser, SENOs. We seem to have a persistent problem with regard to getting posts filled and keeping them filled."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Higgins The Deputy mentioned a number of issues not referenced in this question that are not the responsibility of my Department. CAMHS, for example, is under the Department of Health, while NEPS and SENOs are within the remit of the Department of Education and Youth. However, I certainly can provide an update on recruitment and retention of therapists working with children with disabilities within the CDNTs. Most children with disabilities can have their needs met through primary care and mainstream services across a range of Departments and agencies. However, children with complex needs may require access to the health and social care supports and services delivered by the 93 CDNTs across the country. The most recent HSE data provided to the Department reports that CDNTs are providing supports to more than 46,000 children and young people with complex needs nationwide. Challenges remain, with preliminary data for June showing there are waiting lists to access those services. Despite sustained pressure, waiting lists were reduced by 28% in 2025. In the national service plan for this year, the HSE has committed to a further reduction of 25%. I am pleased to report that there has been a lot of progress again this year. However, it is clear that more needs to be done to address waiting times and improve access to services. The Government has provided funding for additional posts to enhance the capacity of the CDNTs. This includes \u20ac8 million this year to fund 150 posts to support children with disabilities. A total of 80 of those posts have been filled and recruitment is ongoing for the remaining vacancies. The HSE has informed me it is confident of hitting the target of 150 by the end of the year. Budget 2027 increases the investment in this area, with \u20ac6.3 million allocated to recruit a further 150 posts for children's services. Recruitment and retention of staff remain a challenge in the sector. I will talk about what we are doing to address that at my next turn."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Roche","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Roche.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Peter-Roche.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peter Roche I am glad the Minister of State referenced the crossover between education and health. One of the issues that arises constantly is the question of what category applies when a child needs an assessment. There is sometimes ambiguity in that regard. In the context of children progressing in school, it is paramount that there be a co-ordinated approach to resolving these issues. All too often, we hear about parents being left in limbo as they wait for a clear roadmap to help them do what is best for their child. I was bewildered to hear the Ombudsman for Children tell us at the education committee the week before last that because the 70 national CAMHS teams are not populated properly, we really only have, in effect, 40 teams. I realise this may not be the Minister of State's area but my point is that we have a massive issue with recruitment and retention."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Higgins To be clear, my Department works with the HSE on the CDNTs. I will provide an update on recruitment and retention for those teams, after which I will deal with the Deputy's point regarding the confusion and difficulty for parents in navigating what is a very large and sprawling system. The HSE continues to drive intensive domestic and international recruitment efforts as well as workforce initiatives. Progress is being made, with the HSE reporting a 31% increase in staffing levels nationwide from October 2022 to June 2026. This equates to an additional 480 whole-time equivalent staff, including approximately 350 health and social care professionals. That is really important because they are often the people on the front line dealing with children and, indeed, adults. Clinical placement opportunities are strongly associated with future employment decisions by students. I am pleased to say that placement activity within CDNTs has expanded significantly. There were 472 placements last year, with further expansion this year a major focus for the Department. Other measures include a CDNT graduate sponsorship scheme, student engagement and career promotion initiatives, expansion of apprenticeship pathways and development of alternative entry routes into disability services."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Roche","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Roche.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Peter-Roche.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peter Roche I regret if I put the Minister of State on the spot this morning with my questions but they are very relevant in the context of the debates we had this week and the week before last on childcare, mental health provision in schools, assessments of need and the provision of clear roadmaps to supports for children with disabilities. I really would like to see some analysis and reporting on what we are good at and where we are failing in terms of recruiting appropriate numbers of staff to deal with these issues. Children need early intervention and easy access to supports at their critical stage of life."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Higgins I absolutely agree. I hope the Deputy will be pleased to hear that the HSE has commenced a national CDNT retention research programme, which aims to better understand the factors influencing attraction to work and likelihood to remain in the industry. A dedicated disability workforce strategy is being developed, which will be published by the HSE this year. Its findings will inform future workforce policy and workforce planning decisions. The Deputy mentioned how difficult it can be for families to know which door to go through and which service to access. We have CDNTs, primary care services and CAMHS. I take this opportunity to update him on the HSE's single point of access initiative, which seeks to ensure there will in future be no wrong door. I often hear from parents who wait a long time to get to the top of a list only to be told, when they finally get to speak to a healthcare professional, that they are in the wrong queue and must go to the bottom of another list. That should not and cannot be allowed to happen and we are working to change it. That is what the single point of access reforms will do right across every level of the HSE."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Disability Services"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_24","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Family Resource Centres","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_22","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_22","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_24","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_24.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath Will the Minister of State consider designating the Carrigaline family support centre as a family resource centre?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Higgins I thank Deputy McGrath for the question, which I am taking on behalf of his colleague, the Minister, Deputy Norma Foley. The programme for Government commits to work to increase funding and expand the capacity and network of family resource centres. Budget 2027 honours this commitment and I was delighted that the Minister secured funding as part of the budget for a further ten family resource centres. This will bring the family resource centre programme membership up to 146 members next year. This further expansion of the programme is the latest in several very positive developments for the programme over the last number of years. It follows an increase in the membership of the programme in 2025 by five members and in this year 2026 by a further ten members, bringing overall membership to its current 136 members. Next year we will establish ten new centres, which will be very welcome for the communities that will be served by them. The most recent national application and assessment process for the programme was undertaken in 2025. It was led by Tusla and it was independently chaired by a representative of the University of Limerick. This followed an open call for applications, with applications reviewed and scored against clearly defined and published criteria, including population need, the level of deprivation, child population data, existing service provision and existing service gaps. Decisions on the successful services were then made by an assessment panel. There continues to be a strong level of interest in communities around the country in having family resource centres as part of their community infrastructure. This is borne out in the 49 applications that were received in response to the 2025 call. The securing of the funding for next year's budget will now result in a new call for applications which will open in early 2027. The process for the forthcoming call, including the assessment arrangements and the applicable criteria, remains to be confirmed. Details of the process and how to apply will be published and publicised widely once they are available. The location of the ten new family resource centres will be determined through that process."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath I thank the Minister of State for the update. The Carrigaline Family Support Centre is an organisation that was started in 2008 by community activists. It has grown to be a fantastic local service provided to all generations, young and old. For older people, it provides a care and repair service, a senior alert service and social networking such as day trips. For children, it provides art therapy, play therapy, counselling and wider family supports. We know families go through very difficult times, whether through relationship breakdown, financial stress, mental health issues or abuse issues. It has to be noted that this family centre in Carrigaline provides services to the wider surrounding areas as well, which are developing and growing with an increasing population. It is important, therefore, that this family support centre is designated as a resource centre so that it gets additional resources and is able to provide even more services to the local area. I understand what the Minister of State has said about a new call in 2027, and I very much welcome that. I understand there are criteria that have to be met but it is important that I make the case this morning for the Carrigaline Family Support Centre and that it be strongly considered in that new process next year."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Higgins The Deputy has made the case very well. Ultimately, however, it would be premature to identify specific locations or confirm a timeline at this stage. I understand that the Carrigaline Family Support Centre applied before under one of the processes. While it was not one of the 15 organisations granted membership, it still can reapply. Tusla has advised me that there is a service level agreement in place between it and the Carrigaline Family Support Centre, and that the centre works very closely with Tusla's social work department in particular. I believe the centre is active in the south west region child and family support network and the parent champions fora initiative and that it engages in child, youth and parental participation events. That all certainly sounds very positive. The centre also offers programmes for over 60s, family support, low-cost counselling, play therapy and art therapy. It is home to the Carrigaline women's circle and partner services, such as Age Action, For\u00f3ige and employment services. It certainly sounds like a fantastic centre in the Deputy's community."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath I thank the Minister of State for outlining the great work done by the Carrigaline Family Support Centre. It is certainly welcome that in budget 2027 funding has been provided for ten additional resource centres across the country, bringing the total to 146. That there will be a new call in 2027 is also very positive. I understand it is a very transparent process in terms of the criteria being outlined and so on. From a socio-economic point of view, this area probably does quite well and would be regarded as reasonably affluent. With regard to the measurement of deprivation, while I understand it needs to be done, it is also important to point out that there are issues in families in all areas and all socio-economic areas, and we need to be very cognisant of that. There are relationship breakdowns, instances of abuse, issues with mental health and strains within families, for which services are needed. We need to be careful not to place too much emphasis on the issue of deprivation. While I understand it has to be a part of this, it is worth making the point that we should not overrate that either. These issues are across the board from a socio-economic point of view."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Higgins On the criteria for the applications for the previous round, while this was led by Tusla, it was independently chaired by a representative of the University of Limerick. That is the level of transparency, fairness and equity that is afforded to all applicants. Tusla has been very clear that any organisation that has applied before is not automatically readmitted to the process. Organisations must submit a new application so it would certainly be timely for the Deputy to engage with the Carrigaline centre and suggest that it prepare for the opening of applications. The last time around the application looked at things like willingness to engage with Tusla on funding for children and family services, which the centre is clearly doing already. It is also desirable for a board of management to be in place, so if that is not in place currently, perhaps it is something the centre could do as preparatory work. It should also have existing facilities suitable to deliver the programme and be able to demonstrate the ability to deliver outcome-driven services. These are the kinds of things that the board could focus on in advance of the next call."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question No. 83 taken with Written Answers."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Family Resource Centres"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_25","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Disability Services","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_22","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_22","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_25","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paula Butterly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paula-Butterly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paula-Butterly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_25.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Higgins Our children's disability network teams provide services to children and young people with complex disability needs through a child and family-centred needs-led model. Supports are determined by the individual needs, strengths, circumstances and the agreed goals of the child and the family. The delivery of the children's disability network team services is underpinned by the HSE's policy framework for service delivery of the CDNTs by national guidance on individual family support plans, IFSPs. These place family-centred practice at the very core of service provision. An individual family support plan sets out the goal for each child and how they, their family and the CDNT are going to work towards those goals. As set out in the national guidance for those plans. it must be an ongoing and living plan, reviewed as priorities and goals change. All supports offered by the team must relate to the plan and to the agreed goals. Each plan is developed collaboratively with the child or the young person and his or her family. A plan with initial goals should be formed as soon as possible after services commence with the child and family. These plans set out the agreed goals, the interventions required to achieve those goals, the professionals involved in delivering supports and the arrangements for monitoring and review. Family-centred practice is a fundamental principle of our CDNT model of service. An IFSP is the cornerstone of family-centric practice. The plan does not necessarily require a formal meeting between the family and the whole team. It can be developed and can be revised by the family and one or two team members during a centre appointment, during a home visit, during an online meeting or over the phone. Responsibility for ensuring that all national policies, procedures, protocols and guidelines relevant to the delivery of CDNT services rests with the local management in clinical governance structures in the HSE. All health regions have appropriate structures in place to provide robust governance of the CDNTs."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paula Butterly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paula-Butterly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paula-Butterly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paula Butterly The reason I brought this question to the Minister of State this morning is that a family in County Louth has repeatedly sought an individual family support plan. While meetings have taken place involving a number of professionals, the family have not got an agreed plan yet. Such a plan is not clearly going to set out the measurable goals, the interventions and who is responsible for delivering them. The concern here is not simply one of resources; it is also about ensuring that the resources that are available are being used effectively and that the families receive the structured and co-ordinated supports as envisaged under the progressing disability services framework. If the child's needs, goals and interventions are not clearly documented and agreed, it becomes very difficult for the families to understand what supports they can expect and how progress will be measured. What oversight mechanisms are in place to ensure that IFSPs are being developed by CDNTs and that they comply with the national framework?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Higgins I am sorry to hear that about the family in Louth. If I can support the Deputy by putting her in contact with local management there, who are responsible for this, I absolutely will. The number of children attending a CDNT who have a current individualised family support plan is reported to my Department by the HSE. A plan is deemed to be current when it has had input within the last 12 months; otherwise, it is deemed lapsed. The total number of children with a current individual family support plan in Deputy Butterly's region, HSE Dublin and North East, is 6,050. Nationally, that figure is 29,275. As I said, responsibility for ensuring that all national policies and procedures are inputted rests with local management and the clinical governance structures. I am happy to work with the Deputy on the case if she would like."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paula Butterly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paula-Butterly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paula-Butterly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paula Butterly I thank the Minister of State. This family also raised concerns regarding the distinction between administrative contact and therapeutic intervention when service activity is being recorded. Will the Minister of State clarify how the HSE ensures that activity reporting provides an accurate picture of the services being delivered to children and families? Would she consider asking the HSE to undertake a review or audit of a sample of IFSPs and service statements nationally to ensure that they contain the goals, interventions, responsibilities and timelines required under policy and legislation? Families are less concerned with the number of meetings that are taking place than with understanding what services their child will actually receive and when they can expect them. I understand this family experienced significant difficulty in obtaining a statutory services statement, and when it was received, they felt it did not provide sufficient clarity regarding the services to be delivered and the timeframe for delivery."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Higgins In that case, the Deputy might advise the family that the Act provides for an application to raise a complaint if the HSE fails to provide, or fully provide, a service specified in the service statement, or if the service statement is inaccurate or incorrect. They may also subsequently appeal to the appeals officer if the recommendation of the complaint officer is then not implemented. There are appeals mechanisms and safeguards to ensure that if an appeal is won, it is implemented locally. In response to the Deputy's other question regarding therapeutic interventions and consultations, we have a system called the CDNT-IMS, which categorises different forms of engagement and responses. The Deputy is right that it is really important to recognise that supports may come in forms other than direct therapeutic interventions in a family-centred practice model. It is important that supports are captured, but in a specific way. Administrative tasks need to be recorded separately from interventions and we are working on ensuring that happens."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Disability Services"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_26","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Childcare Services","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_22","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_22","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_26","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Stanley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_26.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Stanley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Brian Stanley On plans for the further roll-out of early learning and childcare facilities, will one be located in County Laois? I understand seven have been announced. The Minister of State might give an update on the seven that have been announced. What plans are there for another round?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Higgins Improving access to high-quality and affordable early learning and childcare is a priority for the Government. Overall, early learning and childcare capacity is increasing. Data from the annual early years sector profile in 2025 shows that the estimated number of enrolments increased by 25% over the previous three years. In Laois specifically, there was a 21% increase in enrolments in that period. Earlier this year, the Minister, Deputy Foley, announced \u20ac135 million in capital investment in buildings for high-quality, accessible, State-led early learning and childcare up to 2030. This is a groundbreaking initiative for the Government, which begins this year. Capital funding will be used to acquire or fit out the buildings, depending on requirements. On 30 September, the Minister announced the proposed locations for the first tranche of the new early learning and childcare facilities to be delivered under the State-led early learning and childcare capital programme. The Department has received project proposals from a number of sources since the programme was launched. These projects are in very different stages of development. Some relate to existing buildings that are ready to be occupied or fitted out, while others are longer term prospects for future years. Not all proposals align with the programme objectives. Some projects are proposed by an existing early learning and childcare service provider, while others relate to a building or property only and a separate process to identify an operator would be required. The Department has a long list of projects under consideration, which includes project proposals received through preliminary appraisal forms from city and county childcare committees. I am advised that no project has yet been brought forward from County Laois via the submission of a preliminary appraisal form. The Department is aware that while it does have a long list, it is not an exhaustive list of all projects that could form part of this programme of investment. That is why we continue to invite proposals for projects and seek potential projects for consideration."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Stanley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Brian Stanley I thank the Minister of State. I acknowledge there has been some expansion of childcare facilities in the county but there has also been rapid population expansion from under 60,000 to almost 100,000. This is in the context of Department of local government plans for a further 33% increase in population over the next seven years, with an additional 11,200-plus new households. There is a critical shortage of childcare facilities in all parts of the county, including Portarlington, Graiguecullen, Rathdowney, Mountrath, Mountmellick and Portlaoise. I am regularly contacted by parents in those areas seeking to get their children into childcare. It is putting huge pressure, particularly, on single parents and couples who are balancing work and parenting and trying to pay mortgages and absolutely sky-high rents, which have gone up 12% in the last year. The provision of childcare is essential in the county. I welcome the Minister of State's reference to \"State-led\". She might outline what that means. Who will run that childcare centre? If the Government acquires the building, how is that going to be done?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Higgins The Government absolutely agrees that childcare is a priority. That is why we are investing to reduce the cost of childcare and to ensure the expansion of existing providers across the country. For example, on the expansions, we have the building blocks grant scheme, which will support expansion of capacity by existing providers. Under the 2024 strand of the scheme, one service from Laois was funded and is delivering 13 quality, affordable childcare places on top of what it was already doing. Under the current strand of the scheme, a separate construction project will be delivered in Laois. When complete, it will deliver 64 quality, affordable places. Those are examples of where we are investing in existing providers. The State-led scheme is a brand new scheme where we are looking at new community-led initiatives. Local city and county childcare committees are supporting the development of those projects. If the Deputy is aware of such a project in Laois, I highly recommend he encourage whoever he is working with to get in touch with the Laois childcare committee, which can help them with that form."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Stanley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Brian Stanley I thank the Minister of State. I take it that the local partnerships, for example, could be the body that would kick-start it at local level. In terms of infrastructure, the Government has to look at acquiring premises in the areas of most rapid population growth. I have mentioned some of the towns where there has been massive development in recent years with further development planned. People are moving into the area, buying affordable or private homes or moving into social housing or whatever. It is as critical for them to get their children into childcare as into primary school if there are two parents in the household and both of them are working, trying to pay the rent or mortgage. Is another round of funding due? Initially, there are seven, which I warmly welcome, but is another round of funding due? Could Laois be considered and looked at, given the rapid expansion of the population in the area?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Higgins The answer is \u201cYes\u201d. The process for approving projects is ongoing. Much work has been carried out already but we are continuing with that work. This will be a rolling programme. We are continuing to look at applications and those pre-appraisal forms that come through the local childcare committee. That is the first point of contact. I will outline the process so that the Deputy and the partners with which he is working are aware of it. In the first instance, all projects below 300 sq. m are eliminated. The reason for that is the State-led capital programme aims to deliver services that will, on average, provide 100 early learning and childcare places. Therefore, they have to be over 300 sq. m. That is the first thing to bear in mind. Second, given the importance of delivery at the early stage of the project, we are looking at prioritising projects that can be developed rapidly. To that end, the unit selected projects where funding could be released this year to deliver some or all of the project, either through acquisition or fit-out costs, or both. First, it needs to be big enough. Second, it needs to be fast enough. The third element is the need for local demand, effectively, which the Deputy outlined is the case in Laois."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Childcare Services"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_27","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Childcare Services","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_22","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_22","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_27","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brendan Smith","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brendan-Smith.D.1992-12-14","memberCode":"Brendan-Smith.D.1992-12-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_27.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brendan Smith","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brendan-Smith.D.1992-12-14","memberCode":"Brendan-Smith.D.1992-12-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Brendan Smith I welcome the introduction of the building block grant scheme in 2024. It is important. It gives some financial assistance to both private providers and community-provided services to develop new accommodation or upgrade existing accommodation and expand. One query I have from a number of existing providers in my constituency of Cavan-Monaghan is when the next round of building block grant applications will be put in place. When is the application process likely to be opened with an invitation for applications? What is the likely timescale for the processing and approval of applications?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Higgins Improving access to quality and affordable early learning and childcare is a key priority of the Government. Capital funding has been allocated to the early learning and childcare sector under the national development plan, NDP. The NDP was revised last year, as the Deputy will be aware. This will enable significant investment in the expansion of early learning and childcare up to 2030, including through the building blocks capital grant scheme. The building blocks capital grant schemes is open to core funding partner services only. The primary focus of these schemes is to increase capacity in the one-to-three age range for full day care. The building blocks expansion scheme operated in 2024. Under that scheme, funding was made available to applicants to fund renovations or reconfigurations of existing facilities in order to create additional places in areas of the country with identified undersupply. Almost 300 quality, affordable, full-time early learning and childcare places were delivered under this scheme. The first building blocks extension grant scheme closed for applications in January 2025 and is currently in operation. It provides funding to existing services to extend their existing premises or, in the case of community services, to construct or purchase new premises. Projects are now actively under way across the country. The first building blocks extension grant scheme was split into four strands. Private providers could apply for grants of between \u20ac50,000 and \u20ac250,000 to physically extend their premises, with a matching funding requirement. Community providers could apply for grants of between \u20ac100,000 and \u20ac500,000 to physically extend their premises. In addition, community providers could also apply for funding of between \u20ac300,000 and \u20ac750,000 to purchase an early learning and childcare facility or a premises that could be easily adapted for this purpose, or towards the cost of constructing a new premises or installation of a modular building. This scheme is anticipated to deliver up to 1,250 additional quality, affordable, full-time early learning and childcare places over the next year."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brendan Smith","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brendan-Smith.D.1992-12-14","memberCode":"Brendan-Smith.D.1992-12-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Brendan Smith I thank the Minister of State for her reply. As the Leas-Cheann Comhairle may recall, in 1998, the equal opportunities childcare programme was introduced. At the time, it was the first major investment in childcare accommodation facilities throughout the country, both assisting private providers and community-led providers, which was a new sector at that time. As the Minister of State is aware, many of the facilities developed from that period onwards are in need of an upgrade now. Many need additional accommodation because of the demand for places. The Minister of State\u2019s Department colleague, the Minister, Deputy Foley, visited Cavan at my request some months ago. She met some of the providers that need to expand because of the demand for places. As the Minister of State said in her initial reply, there is a particular undersupply of childcare places for pre-ECCE children aged up to three. It is important that those providers that are providing the full service are given priority in developing new accommodation or upgrading existing accommodation. More and more investment is needed."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Higgins It is absolutely needed, and more and more investment came in this year\u2019s budget for that exact reason. The second building blocks extension scheme will fund projects in 2027 to deliver additional capacity. It recently closed for applications. Under the scheme, community providers could apply for a grant of between \u20ac100,000 and \u20ac530,000 to extend their existing premises, while private providers could apply for a capital grant of between \u20ac50,000 and \u20ac265,000. Again, matching funding was a requirement for private providers. Applications for this second building blocks scheme were recently appraised by the Department, with input from the Office of Public Works, OPW. I am anticipating an update on the outcome of this process imminently. The Minister, Deputy Foley, assures me that services will be notified of the outcome of this appraisal process in the coming weeks."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brendan Smith","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brendan-Smith.D.1992-12-14","memberCode":"Brendan-Smith.D.1992-12-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Brendan Smith I thank the Minister of State for her further reply. I wish to express the strong interest of childcare providers for the next round of applications to be opened as soon as possible. At one stage, there was an undersupply in our larger, urban centres. Now, there is an undersupply in our rural communities, which is a good thing because there are job opportunities throughout the country, both in rural and urban Ireland. People should not be denied the opportunity to remain in the workforce due to a lack of childcare. It is particularly important as well that we have a good spread of childcare facilities throughout urban and rural Ireland. We have had a good balance in this country between private providers and community-led services. We need to ensure that support continues for both types of providers. In many instances, the community service has been essential because no private provider would have provided childcare services in some of those communities. The community-led service has been of extreme importance and remains so."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Higgins I and the Government fully agree. That is why we are investing to both reduce the cost of childcare and ensure greater access to it. As the Deputy rightly pointed out, we need to have balance between community childcare providers and providers under our core funding scheme. This year, for example, not only are we investing in existing providers to help them expand so that they can offer more places to people across the country but we are also investing for the first time in State-led facilities. Earlier this year, \u20ac135 million was provided for a ground-breaking initiative to help acquire or fit out childcare as a State-led programme. So far, we have approved seven projects and we will continue to grow that number year on year. The building blocks extension grant scheme, which the Deputy is particularly interested in, has funded 139 extensions throughout the country. We will be making decisions on this new round in the coming weeks."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Childcare Services"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_28","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Childcare Services","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_22","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_22","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_28","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Currie","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_28.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Currie","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Currie I am seeking an update on the review of the 2001 planning guidelines for childcare facilities. They are now 25 years old. We need a date by which they will be replaced and a system put in place that ensures childcare spaces are provided and put to use. Will the Minister of State update the House on the plans for the review?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Higgins The 2001 planning guidelines for local authorities on childcare facilities were, as the Deputy will be aware, issued under section 28 of the Planning and Development Act 2000 by the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage. The guidelines are intended to ensure a consistent approach to the treatment of planning applications in respect of the land use planning aspects of early learning and childcare provision. The programme for Government commits to reviewing these guidelines to ensure sufficient and appropriate early learning and childcare spaces are provided and operationalised. The Planning and Development Act 2024, the new revised national planning framework and the ongoing work on phase 2 of the action plan for the early learning and childcare sector, Shaping the Future, will provide a foundation for this work. Successor guidance for local authorities and childcare facilities will take the form of a national planning statement to be made by the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage under the Planning and Development Act 2024. To progress the programme for Government commitment, an early learning and childcare planning matters working group was established in 2024 and has met a number of times. It includes officials from our Department, the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the Department of Education and Youth. Members of the group have also met local authority planning officials, who were nominated by the County and City Management Association, CCMA, in particular in its planning and land use committee, to identify considerations for the review. These include ensuring that buildings required by the guidelines meet the needs of the local population, are fit for purpose and balance the need to ensure sufficient provision for children and families regardless of the size or housing type of the development with ensuring that buildings are effectively operating as intended. These issues will inform wider engagement with local authorities and other stakeholders, which is at a planning stage, but the timing of a national planning statement to replace the 2001 guidelines will be determined by the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage. Our Department will continue to engage extensively with the Minister to discuss how best to support the implementation of existing guidelines and inform the drafting of revised ones."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Currie","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Currie I am seeking clarity as to whether the new approach is going to be outlined in the phase 2 action plan or if it will come separately from the Minister for housing. It is positive that the Government has ring-fenced \u20ac135 million for State-led provision of childcare facilities. That is one pipeline, but this is a pipeline that is connected to the delivery of housing and we are seeing the delivery of housing. The longer we wait, the more opportunities we lose. As for what that looks like, it might mean developments under 75 homes not being taken into consideration for the need for childcare. In my area, it might mean cr\u00e8ches that were supposed to be built not being built, or empty units in areas where people are crying out for childcare."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Higgins I thank the Deputy for her advocacy on this issue. I understand she has a Private Members' Bill on a similar matter. She is doing much work in this area for families not just in her community but in growing communities like my own. I thank her for that. To be clear, the new approach will be given effect through the new planning statement. That is up to the Minister for housing and local government to deliver. Separately, I think the Deputy would be interested to hear that the Department has been liaising with the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage about the planning process in general, as set out under the Planning and Development Act. We have confirmation that the Minister for Children, Disability and Equality will be designated as a prescribed body to be notified by planning authorities of planning applications where it appears that the development will give rise to significant additional demand for early learning and childcare provision. Deputy Currie has described to us what happens when new estates are being built, new families are moving into an area and when new families are growing and new babies are being born in new estates. This will ensure that our Department has visibility on that and can act accordingly."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Currie","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Currie I got that update through a written parliamentary question reply and I welcome it. Has it become operational? To give an example, in my area, Castlefield Hall, a cr\u00e8che was to be built in an estate with more than 100 homes. People in that estate and other estates were excited about having a cr\u00e8che but then somebody else bought that land, put in a planning application that reduced the size of the cr\u00e8che and put in housing with it. These are the kinds of planning interventions that are required by the Minister because we are now losing childcare places where there was an established need that had already been granted but was not delivered. The children in that estate are missing out and will not get that time back. These are the practical issues that need to be addressed."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Higgins The Deputy is right that these practical issues do need to be addressed. That is what the collaboration between our Department and the Department of housing and local government is about addressing. We need to break down those silos and ensure that any decisions made from a planning perspective have cognisance of where we are coming from in wanting to support children, childcare and parents. The Deputy asked whether that change has happened yet. It has not. That change will be given effect through regulation. That regulation needs to be made by the Minister for housing and local government. We are engaging extensively with him to ensure that when that regulation comes in, it will be watertight and give us exactly the opportunity we need to deliver the change the Deputy is asking for."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Childcare Services"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_29","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Childcare Services","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_22","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_22","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_29","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_29.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Higgins I am taking this question on behalf of the Minister, Norma Foley, who earlier this year announced \u20ac135 million in capital investment in buildings for high-quality, accessible, State-led early learning and childcare up to 2030. This is a groundbreaking initiative for the Government that is beginning this year. Capital funding will be used to acquire or fit out the buildings, depending on requirements. The Department has received project proposals from a number of sources since the programme was launched, and these projects are in different stages of development. Some relate to existing buildings ready to occupy or fit out, while others are long-term prospects for future years. Not all proposals align with the programme objectives. Some proposals are proposed by an existing learning and childcare service provider, while others relate to a building or a property only, and a separate process to identify an operator would therefore be required. The Department is aware that this is not an exhaustive list of projects, but it will form part of the programme of investment and the Department will continue to seek potential projects for consideration to add to that list. The Department is now assigning project options to identify which are best placed to deliver on the goals of the programme. The Minister recently announced the locations of seven proposed early learning and childcare projects under the State-led early learning and childcare capital scheme. Across the seven proposed locations, there is the potential to provide around 600 places to support the Department of Children, Disability and Equality's policy of improving access to high-quality, affordable early learning and childcare under the action plan for early learning. Negotiation processes are ongoing in relation to the acquisition of two other sites in Leinster and Munster under the first phase of the State-led initiative. Further projects are also being developed by the Department and information on future projects will be provided as it becomes available. After approval in principle, a final business case is developed for the project, which includes the selection of an eligible operator, agreement of investment, purchasing of buildings and detailed building design and costings. The final business case is then considered by a capital steering group prior to being submitted for approval."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joe Neville I thank the Minister of State, but I will highlight the issues that we face in north Kildare. I was disappointed that no town in north Kildare was on that list. North Kildare, as the Minister of State knows, has a significantly growing population. Not only that, but Naas is the seventh largest town in the country. In Maynooth and Kilcock, we have two of the areas with the youngest populations in the country, yet we do not have locations identified for them. We also have Leixlip, Celbridge and many other towns where we see significant need. It is important that we use one of those locations as a pilot. There are many buildings in the town centres that we can use. I know there has been much conversation about those locations being used for emergency accommodation. It would be more important to focus on delivering pilot programmes in some of these locations rather than let them be bought out by third parties for emergency accommodation provided by Dublin City Council."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Higgins That is fair, but we can only deal with the applications that come in to us. Kildare County Childcare Committee has not made a proposal through the submission of preliminary appraisal forms, so I ask that the Deputy engage with it on this. A number of city and county childcare committees made appraisals and forms, and on that basis the applications were generated, and as I outlined, they went through quite a rigorous process. Once a final business case is then presented, it provides full details of the projects that have been developed. Only at that point can final approval for funding be sought. It is quite a lengthy process. They need to first do the appraisal forms. They then need to put forward a full application, and then there is a round of a final business case. That initial step has to be taken by Kildare or a provider in Kildare. We would certainly welcome any pre-appraisal or preliminary appraisal application forms from Kildare on this."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joe Neville Many providers in Kildare have difficulty finding a location because of the cost. That has to be indicated here. We see that a lot of the locations identified are in largely rural towns where locations in-hand might have been bought out in a previous era. They might have been in the hands of local authorities. We are seeing difficulty in newer and growth areas where land that costs a significant amount of money has been bought up by developers over the past number of years, which is perfectly fine, and is zoned for housing. We do not have old buildings. We do not have buildings we can develop. What we really need is Government intervention at an earlier point to identify these sites. This is something where even Kildare County Council has had difficulty availing of and purchasing land because everybody knows that towns like Kildare are growth areas. It is easier to go into a smaller rural town where there might be sites and there is not the same competition with the large developers we need for housing. However, we also need the Government to get involved to deliver childcare in those locations. It is not enough to say that this has to come from the area itself."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Higgins I understand discussions are happening in Newbridge and Kilcullen about where these applications could come from. We are hopeful we will have two applications from Kildare childcare committee through that mechanism. It is good to see it will hopefully be able to overcome some of the challenges the Deputy has outlined. One criterion is that we would like these projects to be 300 sq. m or above. The reason for that is so they can provide up to 100 early learning and childcare places. The second criterion is that we want to them to be delivered quickly. I appreciate the challenge when you do not have a building and have to acquire a building, but there is funding for acquisitions as well. If you have a determination from a local authority for land or a building that is being provided, that is also helpful. The third criterion relates to the local need, which the Deputy has identified in County Kildare. I encourage him to work with the local childcare committee and any potential providers that are interested in this scheme."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Childcare Services"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_30","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Disabilities Assessments","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_22","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_22","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_30","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aisling Dempsey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_30.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aisling Dempsey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Aisling Dempsey I ask the Minister of State if she is satisfied with the robustness, consistency and appropriateness of the assessment processes used currently and historically to diagnose disabilities and developmental conditions in children. Have these processes been reviewed to ensure that diagnoses are solely based on appropriate clinical criteria and the individual needs of the child?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Higgins I thank the Deputy. The Government has always recognised the importance of ensuring that assessment and diagnostic processes for children with disabilities are clinically appropriate, evidence-based and respond to the individual needs of the child. It is important to note that a diagnosis is not required for access to children\u2019s disability services. That includes primary care, children\u2019s disability network teams, CDNTs, and child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS. Under the HSE national policy on access to services for children and young people with disability and developmental delay, access to services is determined by the child\u2019s needs rather than diagnosis. The Government remains committed to ensuring that children receive the right supports based on their assessed needs and it is working on a suite of legislation and operational reforms to improve delivery of children\u2019s disability services. Clinical judgment is central to determining the type, scope and nature of a clinical assessment. These decisions are informed by the child\u2019s developmental history, age, presenting needs, family context, the specific question being considered or the purpose of the assessment. A clinical assessment may be undertaken for a range of purposes and may comprise formal or informal methods, depending on the circumstances. Clinical assessment and diagnostic practice are underpinned by national and international evidence, professional standards and established clinical governance arrangements. These include professional regulation, continuing professional development, clinical supervision and quality assurance processes, which support safe, consistent and evidence-informed decision-making across services. A diagnosis is the process of identifying and determining the nature of a disease or disorder by its signs and symptoms through the use of assessment techniques such as tests, examinations and other available evidence. These diagnoses are informed by internationally recognised diagnostic classification systems alongside professional standards and evidence-based clinical practice. These frameworks support consistency and allow for clinical judgment."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aisling Dempsey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Aisling Dempsey I thank the Minister for that update. Will she talk a little more about the AON process and what the Department is doing to streamline that? Families are locked in a cycle of waiting. They are waiting for assessment and waiting for reports. It has proven for many years to be a blocker to things like educational places. I appreciate that is interdepartmental work between the Minister of State\u2019s Department and education, but will she give me an update?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Higgins The Deputy is right. Many families are waiting too long for assessments of need for their children and it is not good enough. What got us here are increased demand, changing demographics and more awareness. All of those are good things but they have contributed to a quadrupling of assessments of need received since 2019. The reality is that the service has not kept pace. Ultimately, parents do not want to know why; they want to know what we are doing about it. The only way to fix it is to change things and that means reform. We are making three significant reforms. One is from a legislative perspective, one is from a policy perspective and one is from a budgetary perspective. We are updating the assessment of need legislation section of the Act to make it more efficient and effective, and most importantly to give a standardised approach so no matter where you are in the country you will get the same approach from a policy perspective. There are a number of changes the HSE is beginning to roll out. Single point of access is one. That relates to ensuring there is no wrong door. The autism protocol and pathways are another."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aisling Dempsey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Aisling Dempsey I welcome the changes coming under the Disability (Amendment) Bill 2026 and the Minister of State's and the Minister's continued commitment to maintaining the statutory entitlement to the AON. That remains there, but it is proving to be a blocker. I ask the Minister of State to continue her point and to speak more about the single point of access. How does that work practically? Is it through a GP or is it through any healthcare professional? How can we ensure that all those healthcare practitioners are informed?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Emer Higgins The policy changes coming in include the introduction of the autism pathway and protocol, which will be there specifically for children presenting as potentially autistic. That will be a help in that regard. The single point of access, which the Deputy asked about, is the HSE initiative to ensure there will be no wrong door. I often meet with families who say their child was on a waiting list for a long time. They got to the top of the waiting list and were told they were in the wrong queue. That should not happen, cannot happen and will not happen. Going forward that is what the HSE's single point of access will be about. That will be for the whole of the health service, including CDNTs, CAMHS and primary care. The third element we are introducing is budgetary reform. We are investing in this section. We are building capacity. We are investing in our CDNTs. For example, this year we will have 150 additional posts in our CDNTs. We have secured a budget for another 150 posts next year. We have also introduced funding for a targeted wait list initiative, which supplements the work ongoing within our CDNTs by outsourcing to private providers. To be frank, the legislation, policy changes and budgetary changes are important and are all going to have an impact, but they will not have an impact overnight. I know that is frustrating for families to hear, but we need to make these changes because we need to make it easier and better for families to access these services."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Is f\u00e9idir teacht ar Cheisteanna Scr\u00edofa ar www.oireachtas.ie."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Written Answers are published on the Oireachtas website."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Disabilities Assessments"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_31","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna \u00f3 Cheannair\u00ed - Leaders' Questions","counts":{"speechCount":27,"speakerCount":9},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_31","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jen Cummins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Deputies","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Charles Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Charles-Ward.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Charles-Ward.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Cheann Comhairle I welcome the Birr Historical Society to the Public Gallery. They are welcome and are here at the invitation of Deputy Nolan. I hope they enjoy their day in D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty T\u00e1 m\u00e9 tar \u00e9is labhairt le seanathair a bhfuil garmhac tr\u00ed bliana d\u2019aois aige at\u00e1 neamhbhriathartha agus ag fanacht le teiripe urlabhra. T\u00e1 an seanathair seo 52 bliain d\u2019aois agus ag f\u00e1il scagdhealaithe \u2013 dialysis \u2013 tr\u00ed huaire in aghaidh na seachtaine. T\u00e1 s\u00e9 i ndiaidh ofr\u00e1il deireadh a chur lena ch\u00faram leighis ionas go mbeadh a gharmhac \u00e1balta an cuidi\u00fa a bhfuil de dh\u00edth air a fh\u00e1il. N\u00ed f\u00e9idir an gr\u00e1 n\u00f3 an cr\u00e1 cro\u00ed a sh\u00e9anadh. T\u00e1 na m\u00edlte leana\u00ed ag fanacht le teiripe urlabhra agus teanga. An nd\u00e9anfaidh An T\u00e1naiste idirghabh\u00e1il i gc\u00e1s an linbh seo chun cinnti\u00fa go bhfaighidh s\u00e9 an teiripe? An nd\u00e9anfaidh s\u00e9 gn\u00edomh a chuirfidh deireadh leis an mhoill seo? I received an email during the week from a grandfather, who also contacted the T\u00e1naiste. It stopped me in my tracks. I want to read it to the T\u00e1naiste. It is very brief. He states that he is getting in touch regarding his only grandchild, who is three and is non-verbal but is a beautiful, happy, funny boy, and that his heart breaks for the child as he cannot talk and gets so frustrated. This grandfather states that his daughter has the child on a waiting list to be seen and he feels he is being left behind. He states that he himself is not well, he is on dialysis three times weekly and he is sure a lot of problems boil down to money. He states that he will do a trade-off; he will cease his treatment, saving the State a lot of money, if his grandson can get speech therapy. He further states that he knows what his outcome will be but he would give anything to hear his grandson's little voice. He asks the T\u00e1naiste to treat his email seriously as he is 100% certain of his choices, and that he is still young at 52 but is at peace with his decision. I have spoken to this man since and I have told him to continue his treatment. He gets that, but he is desperate. His love for his grandson is unmistakable and his heart is broken. He is 52 years of age, as he said. He is on dialysis three times a week and he was prepared to stop that treatment in order for that young, three-year-old grandchild to get the therapy he needs. What he needs is a direct, compassionate response and his grandson needs the help. This is part of a wider failure in community care which gets far less attention than hospital waiting lists. HSE figures at the end of August show that there were 6,170 children waiting to begin their initial speech and language therapy. Across the Clare and County Limerick service area, 305 children are waiting on speech and language therapy. The longest waiting for assessment in that area of County Clare is 91 weeks. In my own county of Donegal, for children waiting for initial therapy the longest assessment was 44 weeks and families who cannot afford private therapy have no alternative but to wait. Sinn F\u00e9in have told the T\u00e1naiste time and time again. We have called for more therapists. We have called for clear waiting times. We have called for targets. We have called for monthly publication of community care waiting lists. We have proposed legislation requiring the National Treatment Purchase Fund to publish those lists. I am sure that when the T\u00e1naiste stands up, he will say that 24,000 people were removed from the waiting list for therapy by the end of July, but the real question is how many of those children received treatment because removal from a list is not the same as care being delivered. Will the T\u00e1naiste publish the results? Today, I want to make a plea for that grandfather - that grandfather whose heart is broken. When I spoke to him, all I could hear from every syllable that he uttered was love, desperation and care for his grandchild. I am asking the T\u00e1naiste to intervene in this particular case. I am asking the T\u00e1naiste that this child's needs are reviewed and to ensure that he gets the speech and language therapy. This man's grandson cannot wait for another acknowledgement. I am asking the T\u00e1naiste to intervene for this family now, but crucially to get this system fixed for the thousands of families like his who are just as desperate as he was and need the support for their children also."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The T\u00e1naiste I thank Deputy Doherty for raising this issue. I also thank that gentleman for emailing the Deputy and me in relation to his little grandchild. I share the Deputy's view, at the outset, that it shows the love and the bond that exists between a grandparent and their grandchild, and every grandparent or every parent wanting the very best for their grandchild or child and all of us wanting to see the very best done for children in this country as well. It should never be, and indeed never is, a choice between that man receiving the treatment he so desperately requires and wanting and expecting his young grandchild to also receive the speech and language therapy that he so badly needs and requires. I am sorry to hear, in the first instance, of the clear stress and anxiety that man is feeling. The Deputy said I received an email, which I will check now. I will certainly raise it with the Ministers and pass that email on to the HSE. The Government recognises that primary care waiting list and therapy waiting lists are still too long and a number of initiatives are being taken to try to reduce the primary care waiting list. I am always conscious when I stand up and say these things that it matters little to the person who is wondering when their three-year-old grandchild is going to get the therapy. I take that point, but I want that grandfather to know, and I want all grandparents or parents who have their children waiting to know, that this is an area we are working on very intensively. In September 2025, the Minster, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, provided funding for a long waiters initiative, with a specific focus on physiotherapy, occupational therapy and speech and language therapy waiting lists. There has been progress made through that. The important aim there is not only to reduce the numbers on the waiting lists in the short term, but to try to build a system that can stay on top of it in the longer term, and to have a lasting impact in addressing those backlogs and building capacity for the future. We expect further progress to be made on that through the next HSE service plan too. The Minister of State, Deputy Higgins, also here today, has pointed out to me the progress that is being made in terms of our children's disability network teams. What I would say to that gentleman is that we have funding in place to hire more therapists, specifically to work in those teams. These are the network teams we all know in our constituency and in our community that work with children with disability needs. We have seen progress being made in reducing CDNT waiting lists. In fact, waiting lists were reduced by around 28% in 2025, with a commitment to build on that reduction during this year too. People will know - those opposite will know this as constituency TDs - that funding can be allocated to hire more people. We also need to build up the pipeline of therapists that we have available to hire in the system. The Minister, Deputy Lawless, is increasing the number of student places. Indeed, the programme for Government commits to doubling the number of college places for speech and language therapists, physiotherapists, occupational therapists, dietitians, psychologists and social workers, providing up to 461 additional student places by 2028. For the three-year-old child today, I know that is not the answer, but it is the answer for building up the capacity of the system to make sure we do not find ourselves in a situation where any grandparent is worrying whether their grandchild will get access to the treatment they so very much require. I thank that gentleman for bringing this issue in relation to his grandchild to my attention. I want to assure him that I will make sure the HSE has access to that information but I also want him, more importantly, to know that we are working on this as a priority issue. We are expanding our children's disability network teams right across the country, we are increasing the number of therapists working on them, we are increasing the number of training places to make sure we have an even further pipeline and we have, thankfully, seen waiting lists for CDNTs falling as a result of that investment."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty We all deal with people but there has rarely been a time in my life that I was as taken aback as I was by this email. It was the lengths this person was willing to go to and the idea that he was trying to help the State provide speech and language therapy for his young grandson of three years of age, as he says. He would do anything just to hear his little voice. He was willing to give up his own treatment, knowing that would have an adverse impact on his own life and thinking that by saving the State a few pound, his young grandson would get treatment. That is the desperation that families feel. The T\u00e1naiste is talking about what the Government is doing. I could roll back the clock, with respect, and the T\u00e1naiste would give the same speech last year and the year before. There are hundreds of children who are waiting for speech and language therapy for more than two years - not weeks and not months but two years. Seven hundred children are waiting on speech and language therapy for two years. The waiting time is 204 weeks in parts of Dublin for initial assessment. What comfort is the T\u00e1naiste going to give to the thousands of parents out there whose children are non-verbal and who know that with the support of the State they can speak and talk, yet the system and the Government is failing them over and over again? I ask the T\u00e1naiste to look at the crisis the Government is causing in relation to this and what measures he will put in place to adequately address it in the coming months."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The T\u00e1naiste What I would say to that individual, and to anybody whose child is awaiting therapies, is that the number of people working in our CDNTs is increasing as is the amount of funding going into them and that the wait times are now decreasing. The HSE preliminary data shows that the national CDNT waiting list has reduced by 62% from 16,522 children awaiting contact with a team in 2023 to 6,217 at the end of June 2026. Of course, that number is still too high but it is important that, as a Government, we give parents both hope and a way forward or direction of travel. That, by any measure, is a significant reduction in waiting times for CDNTs. We will and we must go further but we also have to tell people that we have to build the entire system here as well. We have to make sure we have enough people available to hire because, as the Deputy knows, we often put funding in place and run recruitment campaigns and find we cannot fill the necessary posts. That is why the Minister, Deputy Lawless, is significantly increasing the number of therapy places. This is a priority for Government, progress has been made and we will build on that progress in the time ahead."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Cheann Comhairle Before I call Deputy Cummins, I welcome the students from Grennan College in Thomastown, County Kilkenny, who are here as the guests of Deputy Newsome Drennan. I hope they enjoy their day in Leinster House. All of those in the Public Gallery are very welcome. It is good to see the public taking a keen interest in our debate and business."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jen Cummins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jen Cummins I, too, welcome all of the young people in the Gallery. It is great to see them here. An internal Fine Gael report has found that many people are confused about what the party stands for. Can I be so bold as to suggest a reason for the confusion? It is the party's repeated failure, after nearly 16 years in government, to deliver on promised commitments because it prefers to narrate the problems of this country rather than doing anything about them. We have seen that with the housing and cost-of-living crises but nowhere is it more evident than in the Government\u2019s shameful treatment of children with additional needs and their families. They have known nothing but failure from this Government and every other Government Fine Gael has been involved in since 2011. For those families talk is cheap and the T\u00e1naiste's commitments are not credible because despite promise after promise, nothing gets better. Parents listen to Members of this Government insist that disability services and special education are a priority while watching their children being denied basic services and supports every single day. It is exhausting, demoralising and heartbreaking. It should be no surprise that these families have so little faith in this Government and its plans to overhaul access to special education. It is now nearly a year since the Government announced it wanted to remove the requirement for children to have a diagnosis to access special classes and supports. There was very little information about this proposal until this week and the response has been very clear. All of the teacher unions have written to the Department to express universal opposition to these plans and I agree with their concerns. It seems that this plan is not being driven by the needs of children or their best interests but it is being introduced because the State has failed to provide them with timely access to diagnosis through the assessment of need process. Diagnoses are being presented as some kind of optional extra when the reality is that professional assessments and diagnoses are critical because they outline what the child needs to survive and thrive. Teachers are not qualified to do this functional, clinical work. They are not psychologists. Principals are not clinicians and schools are not diagnostic centres; they are places of teaching and learning. This proposal, as outlined in documents from the Department, will mean that a child will have to display behaviours that persistently impact on attendance, achievement, participation and well-being before they receive specialist supports. Does the Government want a child to underachieve or fail before he or she gets the appropriate supports? In what world is that appropriate? Where is the care and humanity in that? It is cruel and it is a throwback to a time when this country treated the most vulnerable people with the most contempt. Does the T\u00e1naiste accept this new proposal is more about Government convenience rather than the best interests of the child?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The T\u00e1naiste No. Quite frankly, I accept that if every time we tried to consult and engage on how we reform a system and we tried to shut down the debate before having the engagement, that would not be in the interests of the child. The Deputy provoked me in relation to my party report. If it was a secret report, we would not have emailed it to thousands of people-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Deputies","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputies Hear, hear."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The T\u00e1naiste ------and be handing out hard copies at the Ard-Fheis and having a discussion in the full glare of the media. Sometimes it is good for parties to actually look at how they can best serve this country and not be complacent about the centre holding and populism not taking hold. I look forward to that discussion. I will debate my party's record with anyone. We will do that at the Ard-Fheis. My party\u2019s record since I came into this House is going from a position of 15% unemployment and the IMF being in town to seeing 145 homes completed every single working day. There are 300 people getting keys to their new home every working day. We have full employment. We are reducing tax and childcare costs, we have a record number of special classes-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Rory Hearne There is record homelessness."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The T\u00e1naiste Sorry, the way this works is that a Deputy does not just get to make a charge and I roll over and they tickle my belly. If somebody says something, I actually have a right to respond to it in this House."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Deputies","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputies Hear, hear."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The T\u00e1naiste Do not try to shout me down. That is the first point. The second point is in relation to special education. It always worries me when the starting point is that the unions said it is a bad idea. Quite frankly, sometimes it is not about the unions or the politicians-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Gary Gannon It was not."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jen Cummins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jen Cummins That was not the starting point."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The T\u00e1naiste Hang on a second, please. I fully respect Deputy Cummins and her sincerity, bona fides, and knowledge on and interest in this issue but I also know the current system is not working and it is not serving children. I think we can agree on that. I know what I am meant to do. I meant to stand up here and trot out a load of figures,say we are spending more money than ever before and we have more special classes than ever before. All of that is true but the system is still not working. Are we going to continue pumping money into a system that is letting children down or are we going to ask what inclusive education looks like? I want to assure parents and teachers that nothing is decided here, and I am not suggesting the Deputy is not, but let us make sure there is an honesty in relation to this. Nothing is decided. We want to consult extensively with all stakeholders. That is simply where we are at. We need to ask ourselves whether there are too many hoops and hurdles and too much bureaucracy that a child has to jump through before getting a place in a special school, and I contend there absolutely is. I would look at it the other way. The Deputy said we want the child to fail but she does not believe that. Nobody wants a child to fail. However, what we are doing now is saying a child has to have this or that piece of paper and has to tick a box. If the family is fortunate enough to be able to pay for the piece of paper, that is not on either. We have to see whether the system has become overly bureaucratic because I do not believe we are getting the return on investment families expect. Quite rightly, the figures we are spending on special education are extraordinarily large - it is good we are spending lots of money on special education - but they should not be that large with so many people still dissatisfied. What the Minister, Deputy Naughton, is doing with the Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan, is trying to have a conversation about reform alongside investment and how we get this model right. As part of that, we will have this inclusive education forum, which I think the Deputy is in favour of, which will kick off on 12 November. Let us have a discussion about what the model looks like. In relation to this, any future proposals will involve lots of engagement with advocacy organisations, disabled persons organisations, and educational stakeholders. Of course, they will. However, we should be willing to have the conversation because the current system is not best serving children."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jen Cummins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jen Cummins I am delighted to hear the T\u00e1naiste does not think it is working because I do not either. I respect the work he and other people in this Government are doing in this area but it is not good enough. The fact is that it is not working fast enough. There is idea after idea - we will try this or that out. There is a document going around at the moment comparing our education system to other countries but it is not like for like. We cannot make this up as we go along. There are going to be many more children coming into the system with additional needs. We need proper plans but they should not be piecemeal. That is the problem. It is not only the problem with the view in this Government of special education but it is also what is happening on the ground for children and schools. We saw in a documentary a couple of weeks ago where children with additional educational needs are being treated as second- or even third-class citizens in this country. We are not getting it right. My quest is to make sure that I put as much pressure as possible on the Government to get this right and get the expertise and listen to people on the ground and the parents. They know what that is. I know the Government is having that forum but it has to stop kite-flying because it is scaring families, children, and education providers."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The T\u00e1naiste I am very conscious of the point the Deputy makes about kite-flying and the anxiety it can cause but I say, respectfully, that it is not kite-flying which is when you begin consultation, start to engage and somebody somewhere in the system says, \"This is what we are doing.\" No decision has been made nor is there any plan for an immediate change. I say that genuinely. Any changes that come about might happen in September 2028, and not this coming September. The second exchange we are having is more productive. The Deputy should be putting us under pressure. We, collectively, need to put ourselves under pressure to do more and do better rather than just rhyming off the statistics. We have all seen the benefits of the new classes in schools. Those are real benefits but it is still not enough. I and the Government believe there is a rigidity here. I was just asked about a grandfather who is wondering whether his three-year-old grandchild will get speech and language therapy. Part of the answer to speeding up access in general will be to free up therapists to do less report writing and more provision of therapy. We have to look at how we get this right. We have to drive reform. We in this country have an addiction to spending. The answer is to spend more, spend more and spend more. We must have a similar level of obsession with the impact of that spending and the difference it is making. Let us work, whether through the education committee of these Houses or the inclusive forum, to get the model right. The Deputy should be keeping us under pressure to go faster but we should have a shared destination for where we want to get to. It has to be a better place than we are in now."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Kelly Yesterday, the current and previous Ministers for justice, Deputies Jim O'Callaghan and McEntee, confirmed to this House that they acted without legal authority in the handling of Superintendent Brian O'Reilly's protected disclosures. The Minister, Deputy McEntee, admitted she interfered in the protected disclosure process when she should not have. She also admitted that Superintendent O'Reilly's correspondence to her was a protected disclosure in its own right but she sent it to An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. In doing so, she acted without legal authority. She did so using previous protected disclosures as some form of precedent for the handling of his case. That is ridiculous. She also tried to downgrade this protected disclosure by him \"as a complaint rather than as a protected disclosure\" and that it would be sent to GSOC, now Fiosr\u00fa. The current Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, then came into office and actioned this by sending it as a complaint on 7 February 2025. In doing so, he also acted without legal authority. Those two Ministers acted without legal authority. That is very dangerous territory for this Government, and potentially fatal. Why? Because once the Office of the Protected Disclosures Commissioner made its statutory appointment of the then-Secretary General of the Department of Justice on 2 October 2023 to deal with this protected disclosure, it was locked in time. That is it. Brian O'Reilly has been treated like dirt by An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na and the Department of justice. His protected disclosures were left in abeyance for three years. More important is the Horkan family, whom the T\u00e1naiste knows. They have good time for him. Yesterday, they dismissed as \"nonsense\" the idea that the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, would ask Fiosr\u00fa to investigate their concerns regarding what happened to their son and brother on the night he was murdered. They feel let down and will not be co-operating with any such investigation. GSOC was tasked with investigating this very issue in relation to these holsters, which I hold in my hand, in 2019, 11 months before Colm Horkan was murdered. It could not do it because it could not get the co-operation of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. How is the family meant to have confidence in the same organisation, newly re-established, to do an investigation that it could not do back then? This is unprecedented. A family is fighting the State to get an investigation into the circumstances of the capital murder of their loved one because of these holsters. The Government needs to change course. I am going to say out straight that this is not going to go away. The Government needs to stand up for this family. They are watching as I speak. I must say directly to the T\u00e1naiste, whose party is meant to stand for law and order, that they are depending on him and his response."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The T\u00e1naiste I thank the Deputy. I say at the outset that I know the Ministers, Deputies McEntee and O'Callaghan, would always discharge their duties in line with the best possible advice available to them and with respect to the law. I know the Deputy has raised a range of broader issues there but I want to be clear in my view in relation to that. I, like the Deputy, want today to focus my remarks on the specific point he made about the Horkan family and Detective Garda Colm Horkan. I reiterate that Colm's murder in 2020 shocked people right across this country. It stole a good, decent, honourable member of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na from his family and friends. He was a man who was beloved and kind, and served his country and community with duty and distinction. The Colm that his family and friends knew and loved so much became a personal loss for the Garda family but also for this country. I know he was a proud Mayo man and GAA man. Indeed, I was honoured, as Taoiseach, to meet his family, including his dad, and to open a pitch in his honour and memory. I could feel that day the love and respect that all of Colm's colleagues and community held for him. His murder reminds us of the risks that garda\u00ed take every day to protect all of us and the burden that all Garda families carry in supporting them. I want to say on the record of this House that Colm Horkan exemplified courage and dedication. Thinking of his family, imagine how any of us would feel. I do not know how any of us would feel, as a family, if our loved one was taken from us in such brutal circumstances. Of course we would want answers. I understand that fully. The Deputy knows that the individual responsible for the murder of Detective Garda Horkan has been tried and convicted by a jury in a public hearing before the Central Criminal Court. There has been an appeal of that conviction. There is a reserve judgment from the Court of Appeal and neither I nor the Deputy are attempting to cut across that, nor should we. The Minister for justice met the Horkan family on 29 October to listen to their concerns. The Minister this week made the decision that the Deputy outlined, which was to request Fiosr\u00fa, under section 205(2) of the Policing, Security and Community Safety Act 2024, to conduct an investigation into matters concerning the safety and suitability of the holster used by Colm at the time of the incident at which he was murdered. My understanding is that Fiosr\u00fa has now agreed to conduct an independent investigation of these matters. It is also hoped that the criminal proceedings will conclude shortly and, thereafter, there will be a coroner's inquest to be held in public. I know the Horkan family deserves answers. The Government will need to reflect further on yesterday's comments from the family. There will need to be further engagement with the family. We need to find a mechanism that works for them in terms of trying to get those answers. The Minister has said very clearly that he retains an open mind on a public inquiry. I reiterate that today. We need further engagement with the family and to work out how best to put a mechanism in place to address their sincerely held concerns about the brutal murder and loss of their loved one."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Kelly I thank the T\u00e1naiste. I hope he has moved the dial on this. With all his colleagues beside him, I say, in all sincerity, that the D\u00e1il has to move. It was not good that the Minister for justice met the family a week ago and then said that he was referring the matter to Fiosr\u00fa without them knowing and telling them it was happening. They were never going to co-operate with this. They feel let down and call it an absolute \"nonsense\" for the reasons I have outlined. I hope what the T\u00e1naiste is saying here today is going to be reflected in the coming weeks with a change whereby this family will be engaged with because they need to be met, perhaps by the T\u00e1naiste and the Taoiseach, and that there will be a form of inquiry or process found - I am not hung up about what it will be - to absolutely meet their needs and questions. Will the T\u00e1naiste please commit to that?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The T\u00e1naiste I thank the Deputy. A number of broader issues have been raised in this House in recent times and there have been responses from the Government and processes are ongoing. I note that. My comments are separate from and distinct to that. Alongside and parallel to that, there is a grieving family who lost their son and brother, a serving member of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. It is, in and of itself, rare to lose a member of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na in active service. They have concerns and questions. The Minister for justice met them in recognition of that and he brought forward what he believed to be a mechanism to try to provide answers. The family has now clearly given a view in relation to that and the Government needs to reflect further on that and engage further. I appreciate what the Deputy says in terms of, to quote him back constructively, not being \"hung up\" on the format. It is about trying to establish the information and answers the family want about the loss of their son and brother, Detective Garda Colm Horkan. That is the way in which Government should and will engage on this matter and there will be further engagement with the family."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Charles Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Charles-Ward.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Charles-Ward.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Charles Ward I raise serious issues of accountability and public protection in the engineering profession in Ireland. Engineers play a critical role. Their reports can determine whether a home is safe, whether a family can remain in it or whether homeowners have any route to redress when things go wrong. In the defective concrete crisis serious concerns have been raised. Complaints have been made to Engineers Ireland about professional conduct. When this issue is raised in the D\u00e1il the response has been that it is a matter for Engineers Ireland. My questions are straightforward. Given the State's recognition of Engineers Ireland's role and the professional framework it provides, does the State accept responsibility to assure independent oversight? What independent mechanism exists for the public when complaints arise? Will the Government commit to an independent review of the current arrangements? I am not asking the T\u00e1naiste to intervene in any individual complaints but to ensure proper, independent accountability where professional standards affect public safety and people's homes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The T\u00e1naiste Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an Teachta for raising this question. It is an issue he has been pursuing through a variety of the fora and avenues available to him, including parliamentary questions, in recent times. In order to ensure the safety of people within the built environment, the design and construction of buildings in Ireland is regulated under the Building Control Acts. There are clear administrative procedures in place for demonstrating compliance in respect of an individual building or works, and they are set out in the building control regulations. These empower competence and professionalism in construction projects but they also endeavour to establish a chain of responsibility that begins with the owner. With certain limited exceptions, the owner must assign competent persons to design, build, inspect and certify the building works. These, in turn, must account for their role through the lodgement of compliance documentation, inspection plans and statutory certificates. Under those regulations, chartered engineers on the register maintained by Engineers Ireland under section 7 of the Institution of Civil Engineers of Ireland (Charter Amendment) Act 1969 may be appointed and may be signed as an assigned certifier, provided they are competent in relation to the particular works involved. That assigned certifier is assigned by the building owner to inspect and co-ordinate the inspection activities. There are also strong powers of enforcement under the Building Control Acts to ensure compliance with both the building regulations and the building control regulations. Enforcement is delegated to the local building control authorities which are independent in the exercise of their statutory powers. That is the factual position. It is slightly technical but it is important to put on the record of the House. In answering this question, I am aware of the context in which the Deputy raises this and the real trauma people in his county and others, though perhaps particularly in Donegal, have gone through with the mica situation. While not in any way like the Deputy, I have been in homes in Donegal affected by this and seen the devastation - the pain, stress, anxiety and the rest - it has caused people. I wanted to acknowledge that. To be helpful in terms of what Deputy Ward is suggesting, there is a programme for Government commitment to establish a new building standards regulatory authority. The Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage is currently implementing this two-stage process. The aim of this new authority is to strengthen the oversight role of the State in respect of the design and construction of buildings. I wonder perhaps if this is an issue the Minister could engage further with the Deputy on because the aim is that the new authority will ensure stronger oversight of design and construction and give greater confidence about those standards as well. There is the programme for Government commitment on that. On foot of the Deputy raising this issue in the D\u00e1il, I will send the transcript of this discussion to the Minister for housing and ask that he engage with the Deputy on that basis."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Charles Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Charles-Ward.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Charles-Ward.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Charles Ward I accept that and I understand where the T\u00e1naiste is coming from regarding this. However, engineers are administering their own profession, so their disciplinary processes are being done in-house when a problem arises. A problem is arising now. We have hundreds, potentially thousands, of houses affected and this will be something we will have to come back to retrospectively. When it comes to precisely these concerns the public has serious questions and the operation of these processes needs independent oversight. There is no doubt about that. The Department of enterprise has no responsibility and when we try the Department with responsibility for public bodies, there is no responsibility. Basically, Engineers Ireland is marking its own homework. There is no process and no accountability. People are in this scheme and there are issues with it, but there is no accountability for engineers who are not doing their job. I am asking the Government to identify the responsibilities and the areas and to ensure we have some form of independent statutory mechanism going forward to make this scheme work."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The T\u00e1naiste I do not want to be argumentative on this issue, but I respectfully suggest there are some laws that already underpin a number of these issues of building control and standards. In my previous answer, I specifically referenced the Building Control Acts and the strong powers of enforcement that are there to ensure people comply with the building regulations and the building control regulations. I would not fully align with the idea that Engineers Ireland or any other professional body can just have its register and do its own thing. Obviously Engineers Ireland does the register and that is an important thing. It has its professional standards and it is the professional body, but we all operate under the laws of the land. The bigger question perhaps is whether the laws of the land and the structures are adequate. Do they need to be more robust? As I said, the programme for Government agrees with Deputy Ward to a point, in that there is certainly a need for a new building standards regulatory authority to try to better co-ordinate, strengthen and enhance the oversight role of the State when it comes to the design and construction of buildings. I will feed the Deputy's comments back to the Minister, Deputy Browne, as part of that process."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna \u00f3 Cheannair\u00ed - Leaders' Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_32","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna \u00f3 na Comhalta\u00ed Eile - Other Members\u2019 Questions","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_32","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ryan O'Meara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ryan-O'Meara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ryan-O'Meara.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ryan O'Meara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ryan-O'Meara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ryan-O'Meara.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ryan O'Meara I raise a profound issue of importance to survivors of sexual assault and rape across Tipperary, Clare and Limerick, namely, the absence of a sexual assault treatment unit for the mid-west. There are six dedicated sexual assault treatment units in the country. They are in Cork, Dublin, Galway, Donegal, Mullingar and Waterford but the mid-west is a glaring omission. Instead we have a forensic medical examination service. It operates from 7 p.m. to 7 a.m. Monday to Friday and 24-7 at the weekends, but that means that between 7 a.m. and 7 p.m. on a week day there is no access to this local service. The disadvantage goes much further than opening hours. Unlike a dedicated sexual assault treatment unit, the mid-west forensic medical examination service requires a survivor to make a report to the Garda before access to a forensic examination. At a sexual assault treatment unit elsewhere in the county, a survivor can access the examination without first having to decide whether to go to the Garda in the aftermath of an assault. A sexual assault treatment unit also brings forensic examination, immediate medical care, STI screening and psychological support together under one roof. In the mid-west these elements are not provided for in the same integrated way. We need to consider what this means for someone who has just experienced a sexual assault. They may be traumatised, frightened and uncertain about what to do next. Instead of accessing immediate specialist care locally, they may face hours of waiting or travelling to get to a sexual assault treatment unit. I represent Tipperary North but this is an issue for the entire mid-west. At the moment, if people from the region want to get to a sexual assault treatment unit \u2013 and garda\u00ed generally want them to go to one \u2013 they have to choose Cork or Galway. Local garda\u00ed in my constituency have told me that if someone appears in the station following an assault or a rape, garda\u00ed will, if they can, drive that individual to Galway. This is sensitive but talking to people after an assault, they are told that if they want the best treatment in the best centre, they have to go there immediately without changing their clothes or having a shower. It is a horrible thing to have to discuss with someone, but that is what they are facing because they cannot get that service in Limerick. This is not about seeking preferential treatment for the mid-west, but about equality of healthcare, dignity and basic access for specialist services. A survivor of sexual assault should not face obstacles to timely, compassionate and comprehensive care and dignity on the basis of their eircode or address. I am asking the Government to intervene. I have repeatedly, through parliamentary questions, asked it to intervene and I am raising the issue again today. Will the Government establish a sexual assault treatment unit in the mid-west?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Kelly Hear, hear."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The T\u00e1naiste I thank Deputy O'Meara for raising this important issue. I know the Minister for Health will join me in this. While he proudly represents Tipperary North, the Deputy is quite right to say this is an issue for the region and for the country in terms of how we properly respond to the needs of victims and survivors of sexual assault, and also to the criminal justice piece in terms of the preservation of evidence and the like and the important role our sexual assault treatment units, SATUs, play in this. I remember when I was Minister for Health doing a piece with Dr. Maeve Eogan in the Rotunda. She did very good work in relation to this at the initial iteration of the women's health task force. There were six SATUs around the country at the time - in Cork, Dublin, Galway, Mullingar, Letterkenny and Waterford - and they responded to 900-plus cases annually. Unfortunately, this number is rising year on year. That review made a number of changes to protect victims, many of which have been implemented and progressed in the intervening years. They include a rapid responder on-call rota so that forensic examiners can travel to support patients in their local unit, a roll-out of more frequent and flexible modular units, interprofessional training and a pipeline of qualified staff. There are no two ways about it. What the Deputy has identified is true. While are SATUs are distributed nationally, with the aim of providing access within that universal three-hour window, and while patients in the mid-west can access Cork or Galway, the Deputy is right to outline the impact having to travel a longer distance can have on somebody who has experienced the most horrific crime. He has described that situation very well. This is something the Minister for Health wants to make progress on and I want to work with her on it. There is a scoping report for proposed development of a dedicated SATU service in the mid-west. It has been finalised and submitted to the regional clinical director. I believe the mid-west region of the HSE convened a multidisciplinary working group - it had representatives of HSE primary care services in the mid-west, the primary care team, the regional rape crisis service and HSE social inclusion - to scope potential models for the mid-west. The report will be considered by the regional clinical director and we will need to work together on next steps, looking at things like relevant governance and approval processes. I recognise the importance of the role our sexual assault treatment units play and the point the Deputy makes about the mid-west region. The overarching objective is to ensure all survivors of rape and sexual assault have timely access to high-quality, specialist, trauma-informed care delivered with compassion, dignity and, as the Deputy says, regardless of geographical location. The Government will continue to work with the Deputy on this issue and I know the Minister for Health will work with him on it too."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ryan O'Meara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ryan-O'Meara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ryan-O'Meara.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ryan O'Meara I thank the T\u00e1naiste and the Minister for Health for their work on this. I have consistently raised this, particularly through parliamentary questions, pretty much this entire calendar year. I can see from the responses and from the T\u00e1naiste's response today that we are seeing some progress, most definitely. I first raised it on 17 February through a parliamentary question and there was quite a bad response from the HSE, which was that, no, it was not going to do it. I asked two further questions on 4 March. I asked questions on 26 March, 14 April, 28 April, when I asked ten questions, 28 May, 9 July, 14 July, 7 September and 15 October. Each time we have got more data. The data is now on the record for people who have gone to Cork, Galway, Waterford or the forensic unit in Limerick but that only shows historical numbers and figures. There are people behind those but there are so many people out there who do not go anywhere, particularly because we do not have an SATU in Limerick. We need one for them."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The T\u00e1naiste I thank the Deputy. No one can doubt the huge amount of work he has done and his commitment to this issue. I want him to know, as I know he does, that the Minister for Health, who is here with me, is also deeply committed to making progress on better supporting victims and survivors of sexual assault from a healthcare point of view and on how that feeds into the whole-of-government and whole-of-society approach to zero tolerance of domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. The Deputy identified a real and pertinent issue. I thank all stakeholders in the mid-west region for the work they have done in getting things to this point. I suggest, on foot of the Deputy raising this again today, that we keep the lines of communication open. The Minister will continue to work through this and we all have to support her in the next steps."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna \u00f3 na Comhalta\u00ed Eile - Other Members\u2019 Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_33","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Pholasa\u00ed n\u00f3 ar Reachta\u00edocht - Questions on Policy or Legislation","counts":{"speechCount":54,"speakerCount":21},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_33","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-O'Donoghue.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Robert-O'Donoghue.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n \u00d3 Feargha\u00edl","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-\u00d3-Feargha\u00edl.S.2000-06-09","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-\u00d3-Feargha\u00edl.S.2000-06-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Murphy.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Michael-Murphy.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Deputies","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanna Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dessie Ellis","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dessie-Ellis.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Dessie-Ellis.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Crowe.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Crowe.D.2002-06-06","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louis O'Hara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ryan O'Meara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ryan-O'Meara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ryan-O'Meara.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Shane Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Shane-Moynihan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Shane-Moynihan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Darren O'Rourke At its Ard-Fheis this weekend, Fine Gael will launch its blueprint for Irish unity. It is a welcome and positive initiative and I look forward to reading its proposals. The Taoiseach has announced that a new body to examine reunification will be established. This is a time of real optimism. The momentum for Irish unity is building, so this is a moment for leadership. The preparations for constitutional change must start now. The Government must play a leading role. The conversation must be deepened and expanded to allow all people across the island to come together and chart the future. Our ambition is a new, united Ireland founded on equality, democracy, respect and reconciliation. Does the Minister agree this generation has an historic opportunity to shape the future and that this is a moment that must be grasped with energy and enthusiasm?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister for Health (Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill) I thank the Deputy for raising this matter. I was a member of the Good Friday Agreement committee with many of his colleagues in Sinn F\u00e9in. This is a really important area for all of us. What Fine Gael and all parties want is to provide a structure and a plan for the future, whatever that future may be. We have dealt with so many disruptions and opportunities. It is intelligent and appropriate that we take the correct pace to looking at constitutional and integration issues and doing that with the utmost respect for every perspective on this island, both North and South. Fine Gael is the united Ireland party. That is what the party has always been. It has always played a constructive role in that and again wants to play a strategic, constructive role in planning for the broad future, respecting every voice and perspective on this island."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney There will be chaos in Dublin next week when EU Heads of State visit. We are told to expect complete gridlock from Tuesday as roads are closed. Public transport routes will also be significantly impacted. The National Transport Authority is saying every mode of transport, cycling, walking, driving, train and bus, will be affected. There is simply no way to avoid this. Why is the Government not intervening and asking employers to allow their staff, where possible, to work from home next week? Some people will need to get to work or to attend appointments in the city and more may be on strike next Thursday, but many employees will be forced to make a journey into town when they could easily be doing the same job from home. That makes absolutely no sense, particularly when we are being warned of commuter carnage because of these EU Presidency events. The huge increase in the number of employers diluting their workers' entitlement to work from home in recent years has been disastrous for employees and their quality of life and has added to gridlock all over the country, which costs the State nearly \u20ac500 million per year. Instead of employees being stuck in traffic for hours on end next week, will the Minister appeal to employers to ask staff, where possible, to work from home?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill I appreciate the question. It is important to recognise that this Government created the opportunity to have the right to work at home. It is a day that is very unusual and a day in which Ireland can take great pride. We have not done this since 2013 and will not do it again until 2040 or 2041. It is a day when Ireland is the centre of Europe and when the Council and the European Political Community meet here, as opposed to somewhere else. That is an important day for the State. It is one day."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney It is all three days next week."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill I am sure employers can provide the flexibility they need for their employees across the country."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney Will the Minister appeal to them?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-O'Donoghue.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Robert-O'Donoghue.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert O'Donoghue I appeal to the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Heydon, to engage in proper, meaningful discussions regarding live animal export. Every year, animals are transported within and without the EU, enduring long, exhausting journeys in inadequate conditions. We hear reports of pregnant heifers, unweaned calves and other vulnerable animals being subjected to stress, suffering and long journey times. The new animal welfare strategy released this week is welcome, but strategies and promises are not enough. We need legislation that delivers real, measurable improvements in animal welfare. I ask the Minister to engage with stakeholders, farmers, people working in the sector and animal rights organisations to look at better enforcement and to debate whether we need live exports in this day and age. We cannot continue to overlook the realities of what is, at times, a barbarous process. The Department repeatedly refers in parliamentary questions to Ireland's role as an honest broker but we have not outlined our negotiating position on journey times, space allowances or temperature restrictions. We need to have an open discussion on this."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill The Minister, Deputy Heydon, brought the animal welfare proposals to Cabinet this week, and they are grounded in looking after the welfare of every animal. The Minister engages enthusiastically with all stakeholders in the agriculture sector. I will bring the Deputy's question to his attention because I cannot answer it any further than that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett It is now becoming clear that half of Dublin city is going to be locked down. I would like to know the cost of next Thursday to facilitate these EU leaders. There will be huge expense, huge chaos and difficulty for workers to get to work and so on to facilitate these EU leaders, who are probably coming here to tell us why we need to double arms expenditure across Europe. Meanwhile, hundreds of thousands of public sector workers are being forced out on strike on the same day because the Government will not pay them properly. Does this demonstrate the Government's priorities - facilitating EU leaders who want to talk about increasing arms expenditure ahead of looking after working people in this country who are being forced out to strike on the same day the Government is wining and dining European leaders?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill I am not sure what the Deputy is suggesting. Is he suggesting that we do not host EU leaders during the Irish European Presidency? Is he suggesting that we go against the wishes of the 88% of Irish people who are enthusiastic supporters of Europe - the highest across the EU? Is he suggesting that we do not discharge our obligations as a sovereign State in hosting leaders of governments right across Europe who want to be here-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ruth Coppinger Do not disrupt public transport."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill -----and want to engage in a stable conversation about the future of Europe?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett Do not cause chaos for them, and pay the workers."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Cheann Comhairle I thank the Minister."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill It is entirely possible-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett Pay the workers."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill We are a pragmatic, agile and intelligent State. If people can work from home, that is fantastic even if others cannot, but we are the Irish State and the centre of Europe at the moment with the Presidency. If the Deputy is suggesting that we should not discharge our sovereign obligations in that way, then I suggest that he take that conversation to the people of D\u00fan Laoghaire-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ruth Coppinger Why does the city have to shut down?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill ------because I know what their view is."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett I will be taking it to the protest on the day."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Collins They do not want tourism either. In the recent budget, the Government announced what I publicly acknowledged as a game-changer for many throughout the country, this being a \u20ac9,000 solar grant that can lead to homes getting up to nine panels and a battery free of charge if they receive certain payments, such as the fuel allowance, the working family payment, the disability allowance, the domiciliary care allowance, the one-parent family paymnet, the carer's allowance and certain jobseeker's allowances. However, the devil is in the detail. We have now found out that anyone in these categories living in a council house or a community-run housing association cannot get this grant. This is similar to the targeted agriculture modernisation scheme, TAMS, grant, which is desperately needed by farmers, promising up to 60% in solar grants. When the farmer applies, they are refused for one reason or another. Can changes be made to this solar grant roll-out to include local authorities and community-run housing bodies for those who meet the criteria, which will help homeowners but also could help local authorities, which could benefit financially from any extra power savings to be made and which could give them much-needed funds? More importantly, it would help those who do not qualify under these criteria at the moment if they live in a council house. Many of them are in energy arrears and are living in the cold in their homes at this time."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill On the specifics of the solar panel grants, I will raise that with the Minister, Deputy O'Brien. It is important. The Deputy will remember that this Government has tried to prioritise local authority and social housing in providing retrofitting and wraparound heating to be able to insulate those homes first, recognising that those households may not have the funds to do that. Of course, the funding from that comes from carbon tax revenues, which are extremely important. We will continue carbon tax to ensure that we have that dedicated, ring-fenced funding to do precisely what the Deputy is suggesting. As to the specifics of the grant, I will raise that with the Minister."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n \u00d3 Feargha\u00edl","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-\u00d3-Feargha\u00edl.S.2000-06-09","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-\u00d3-Feargha\u00edl.S.2000-06-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Se\u00e1n \u00d3 Feargha\u00edl I rise to raise the programme for Government commitment to introduce a new management plan for the Curragh Plains. Will the Minister bring this matter to the attention of the T\u00e1naiste, who has been particularly helpful on this matter, and to the attention of the Minister, Deputy McEntee? From watching the debate around this in the two years or so since the Government has been formed, it is clear the Government is moving towards a position of recommending that the National Parks and Wildlife Service take responsibility for the Curragh Plains. This is a superb organisation that has done wonderful work with our parks and flora and fauna. It is a pioneering organisation. However, it is manifestly the wrong organisation to take responsibility for the Curragh Plains. The Curragh Plains has far more in common with Phoenix Park, where there is a multiplicity of intensive uses well established. I have never heard any criticism of how the Office of Public Works, OPW, manages Phoenix Park. It has proven its ability to do what needs to be done in Kildare. I implore the Ministers and the Government to move away from the National Parks and Wildlife Service to the OPW and to designate it as the management body."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill I will bring that to the T\u00e1naiste and the Minister, Deputy McEntee, for their attention. The Deputy makes an excellent point. I apologise that I cannot answer it any further than that, but I will bring it to their attention."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Murphy.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Michael-Murphy.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Murphy On Tuesday last, my Oireachtas colleagues from south Tipperary and I met with the CEO of Irish Water owing to the level of crisis across my constituency. Tens of thousands are on a boil water notice. Some of those have been on a boil water notice since February of this year. For a time, they were on a \"do not consume\" notice. There have been multiple outages and poor communication. This is a public utility, in receipt of significant funds, offering an essential service, yet not accountable to D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann. I cannot table a parliamentary question, nor can I question the CEO by means of a select committee. That needs to change. I think every Member in this House believes that Irish Water should be more accountable to this House. How do we make this happen?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Deputies","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputies Hear, hear."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill I acknowledge the Deputy's continued advocacy in respect of this water difficulty with the Ardfinnan regional water supply scheme. I acknowledge that the boil notice is still there, which is deeply disruptive for the Deputy's constituents and the people of the area. Uisce \u00c9ireann has acknowledged that its engagement with public representatives needs to improve. There is no question about that and I entirely agree with the Deputy. It is a body that receives significant public funding. The way in which it has been set up as a statutorily independent body has separated it from the usual parliamentary question schemes that we all know. However, the Deputy is right in the sense that we need a better structure within which it can reply to Members of the Oireachtas, who vote on the expenditure that it gets. That is not particular to Uisce \u00c9ireann and it applies to the generality of State bodies, but this is one that so deeply and directly affects constituents. I very clearly hear what the Deputy is saying."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanna Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joanna Byrne The use of scramblers and electric bikes has long been a scourge in our communities and is only getting worse due to the lack of implementation of regulations. Rank-and-file garda\u00ed tell me there is a resistance to tackle scramblers without sufficient training and adequate protections. I asked Commissioner Justin Kelly two weeks ago at the public accounts committee if the ongoing Garda pursuit training would extend beyond cars to scramblers. He said he did not know and could not provide the detail. I followed up with a parliamentary question seeking clarity and the Minister for justice has just washed his hands of it. How can we implement the likes of Grace's law if the Garda is not resourced to pursue scramblers? How are we at the point where neither the Commissioner nor the Minister for justice knows whether the training being rolled out is even sufficient in that regard?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill It is an incredibly important area. I thank the Deputy for raising it. In the first half of 2026 alone, there were 180 scrambler seizures, which was well ahead of the 2025 figure of 159. In addition, Garda authorities report 1,412 incidents in which an e-scooter was seized in the first half of the year. Again, that is up on the 2025 figure. Specific to the Deputy's questions about the Garda pursuit training, she is aware that the Garda Commissioner has confirmed that will happen. Her particular point relates to whether that will extend to scramblers. I cannot answer that here. I do not know the answer to that, but I will highlight to the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, that the Deputy has asked that question and ask that that Department come back to the Deputy more directly when that is clear."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dessie Ellis","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dessie-Ellis.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Dessie-Ellis.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Dessie Ellis There have been few or no prosecutions or persons charged with criminal damage to Dublin City Council-owned properties running into hundreds of thousands of euro on an annual basis. For example, vacant houses are being severely damaged by being broken into or graffitied, often with racist language. Newly built playgrounds are being maliciously damaged and often set on fire. All of this amounts to a huge cost to the council as well as the community. There needs to be a proper response along with an active plan from both the Garda and Dublin City Council in identifying those responsible and bringing them to court as this is an ongoing criminal activity with no end in sight. Communities are at their wits' end. Will the Minister ensure this criminal activity is treated with the seriousness it deserves?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill Getting more garda\u00ed on the streets, particularly in Dublin city centre, is the Government's first priority in the area of justice. A new intake of 200 trainee garda\u00ed have entered Templemore this week. From that attestation, and this the reason I mention it, 84 will be deployed to the Dublin metropolitan region. There has been a significant increase there. The Deputy is quite right, however, that the combination of local authority work plus policing is what is necessary. In part, that is where the Dublin city task force and the work being led by Robert Watt is so very important. Criminal damage is criminal damage. While neither the Deputy nor I can prosecute that in this House, we want there to be prosecutions for damage to State and community entities, including playgrounds and local authority housing. The Deputy is quite right to highlight the need for that and I thank him."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Crowe.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Crowe.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Se\u00e1n Crowe We would collectively agree that the waiting times for speech and language therapy across the system are appalling. In Dublin South-West, 1,100 children are waiting on therapies, and the list only gets longer. The latest figure I received for Chamber House in Tallaght for August indicate an average waiting time of 119 months \u2013 ten long years. How is it acceptable for a toddler to be identified as needing support and not getting it until they are in secondary school? Is it not time for the Government to accept that its approach has failed and it is time to adopt a different one? What is the Government going to do to bring down the waiting times for speech and language therapy in Tallaght and elsewhere in the State? When will families and children see results?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill The Deputy is quite right; it is not acceptable. As his colleague, Deputy Doherty, highlighted, children cannot be left because the impact of a wait of six months, never mind a year or two years-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Crowe.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Crowe.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Se\u00e1n Crowe I am talking about ten years."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill -----is so much more impactful at tender ages such as, in the case he raised, a toddler aged three. Our real challenge is that while we have invested in the system and there are many more people working in it, we are not getting the collective benefit of that for our children. There has to be reform of the way in which services are assessed and delivered. I ask all Deputies to work with us on how we reorganise and reallocate those resources to make sure that children are getting therapies as opposed to document after document and children suffering due to the disorganisation of systems. While we have tried to reorganise the systems into a single point of access, there is much more to do to make sure that every therapist trained in the State is doing therapy are not administration. In part, that is what we need to do to make sure that the additional resource benefits our children."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louis O'Hara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Louis O'Hara When Fine Gael entered Government in 2011, the average house price was \u20ac195,000 and the average rent was \u20ac765. The average price house price is now \u20ac390,000, while the average new rent is over \u20ac2000. Rents and house prices have more than doubled during Fine Gael's time in office. Last week, a young couple aged in their 20s from east Galway contacted me and said that despite both of them working the prospect of finding affordable accommodation is extremely poor and from what they have seen they could easily end up spending over 50% of their combined income on rent, assuming they are fortunate enough to find somewhere suitable. They went on to say that they found it difficult to understand how two young working adults are expected to build an independent life under these circumstances. What does the Minister have to say to that couple? This is not an accident; it is the result of deliberate political choices. Why has the Government prioritised vulture funds and big landlords over young workers and families? What will it take for the Government to admit it is making the crisis worse? We need genuinely affordable housing, a ban on rent increases and real support for renters. Young people need hope and an opportunity to build a life in Ireland."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill I thank the Deputy. Indeed they do. One of the many parts of that is what Fine Gael has done in government. Prior to it coming into government, house prices were much higher. The Deputy will recall the crash that resulted in many people being left in negative equity and without a job and interest rates that led the State to a position whereby it could not borrow on the international markets. Fine Gael in government has gotten us back to having a better borrowing position than the UK and most of Europe because of the way in which we managed the economy. Young people have jobs. The Deputy is correct. House prices and rents have increased and we have invested into directly building and subsidising housing in many different ways. Most important has been the Land Development Agency, established 2018 by a Fine Gael Government to drive social and affordable housing. I am glad to see the fruits of that. We want to see so much more."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell The people of Connemara have waited years for an ambulance base. Unfortunately, since the project was approved there have been numerous delays. We are now told that the building will be completed by December this year and operational from January. That is good news. I want a commitment from the Minister that this will be the case and there will not be further delays. This is important for the people of Connemara. T\u00e1 muintir Chonamara ag fanacht le fada an l\u00e1 - ar feadh na blianta - i gcomhair bun\u00e1it don otharcharr agus beidh s\u00e9 sin sa tSraith Salach. \u00d3 thaobh an tionscnamh beartaithe, bh\u00ed moill curtha air ar\u00eds agus ar\u00eds eile. T\u00e1 s\u00e9 r\u00e1ite ag an HSE go mbeidh s\u00e9 cr\u00edochnaithe i m\u00ed na Nollag agus go gcuirfear i bhfeidhm \u00e9 i m\u00ed Ean\u00e1ir seo chugainn, rud at\u00e1 go maith agus caithfimid f\u00e1ilte a chur roimhe, ach an f\u00e9idir leis an Aire a dheimhni\u00fa nach mbeidh tuilleadh moill air agus go mbeidh s\u00e9 ar f\u00e1il do mhuintir Chonamara i m\u00ed Ean\u00e1ir?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill The Deputy is correct; construction will be completed. The development of the service plan prioritises the ambulance service for more rural areas to ensure that we are reaching people more quickly. I will always be careful about a commitment. I would rather say the day that it starts instead of two months out. Clearly, the building is in a process of completion. That is our general priority in terms of the distribution of the additional ambulance resources that we have secured for next year."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Grace Boland The cyberattack on a major supermarket this week is a stark reminder of the threat of cybercrime to businesses. I am also aware of an Irish food producer which has had its operations targeted and a ransom in the region of \u20ac400,000 demanded. What more can the Government do to address the very real threat that cybercrime poses, not only to the operations but success of businesses in Ireland, many of which are large employers and, in particular, SMEs?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill I thank the Deputy. It is a very serious risk for businesses. One of the worries I have is that there is so much more happening than we are being told, and ransomware is a problem but the State is not necessarily aware of its scale. Supports are available. In particular, Enterprise Ireland, in partnership with the National Cyber Security Centre, offers a cyber security review grant which enables SMEs, in particular, to access cyber security experts to assess vulnerabilities and develop a roadmap to direct strengthening their cyber resilience. That grant covers 80% of the cost of a cyber security review up to a project value of \u20ac3,000. Like every other part of Europe, we are vulnerable to these type of attacks, whether it is the State or individual businesses. That kind of vigilance is incredibly important."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Kelly The CEO of CUH, Ms Jennifer Kearney, raised issues of concern regarding positions that were vacant and there was talk of a performance review of her. She is a formidable lady and somebody who is good at her job. I recently attended a meeting in UHL regarding mid-west health issues. We are facing into crisis over the next couple of months. At the meeting, concern was raised in respect of recruitment issues, governance and clinical decision-making because of the situation the hospital has been left in. There was concern about how it was speaking publicly. I am worried about this trend. My colleague, Deputy Sherlock, wrote to the Minister recently regarding a circular sent by the Department, namely, the Department of Health recruitment and promotion financial sanction process communication dated 13 October 2026. It covered a range of issues, including recruitment and pay. This changes the relationship between the Department of Health, Minister and HSE. Under what legal basis is the Minister operating? Under what legal basis are these memos being sent out? Trust me, I am very familiar with the Act. What section of the Act gives the Minister or her Department the authority to issue such correspondence?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill I thank the Deputy. I do not necessarily accept the point he made in respect of a trend. The HSE and Department of Health were very much together to try to deliver services for people across this country. There has been an increase in the budget this year and last year. My response is always factual and about the numbers, because that is the truth. That is what transparency."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Kelly What legal basis?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill The Deputy's colleague highlighted that. Forgive me; I do not have the section in front of me. I understand the Secretary General has written to the Deputy's colleague regarding the issue she raised. Essentially, the Department of public expenditure has given us a revised sanction as a consequence of the budget overrun this year, which is partly concerns pay, which is within our control, and non-pay, which largely involves drugs and the primary care reimbursement service, PCRS, which is not necessarily within our control because it is a demand-led service. As a result of a revised sanction, we therefore have to reset the parameters and work with the HSE to try to bring those areas that we can control as close to budget as possible. We are in a situation of competing demand. On the one hand, we need to maintain budgetary discipline in the areas we can control. On the other, we are trying to deliver services. In between is the reality and truth of how many people we have hired and how much more we want to do next year. However, we have a responsibility to the Oireachtas to stay within the budget and parameters it has given."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ruth Coppinger The children's disability network teams are where some of the most vulnerable and needy disabled and neurodivergent children languish, and where they are meant to be cared for in our country. I want to tell the Minister the figures for Dublin 15 that I received from her Department in response to a recent parliamentary question, and she might tell me if she thinks it is acceptable. In Blakestown CDNT, people can wait 58 months to be assessed. In Blanchardstown, that figure is 50 months, and in Cabra and Grangegorman, it is 48 months. How is this in any way acceptable? In my view, it is absolutely criminal that children can nearly age out before they are assessed. It points to the need for a third CDNT team in Dublin 15, which has been a demand of parents and it is a demand of the special task force that was set up there. Will the Minister commit to setting that up or does she think it is fine or acceptable that children in Blanchardstown, Mulhuddart, Ongar, Blakestown or wherever should wait three of four times longer than those in other areas, which is obviously already totally unacceptable? We cannot accept that this is the way disabled and neurodivergent children are treated."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill No, I do not think it is acceptable, to be very clear. I do not think it is acceptable at all, and I have similar challenges as a constituency TD and always have. Deputy Coppinger is correct to highlight it. The challenge is that we have 461 additional student places over the next two years, so we are recruiting more therapists. We have increased the workforce by 31%. In 2025, \u20ac2.85 million of funding was provided in various positions across CDNTs. An additional \u20ac8 million was secured in budget 2026 to allow the funding of 150 posts to CDNTs, and in the year to date, 80 of those have been filled, with the remainder in recruitment, yet we are still not meeting that need. I urge and ask for support as we reorganise the considerable additional resources we have put into CDNTs, into special education and into the harmony between them. I ask for support with the reform and reallocation of how those services are delivered to try to make sure that every therapist we have trained and are recruiting is delivering therapy services instead of being stuck in bureaucracy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ryan O'Meara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ryan-O'Meara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ryan-O'Meara.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ryan O'Meara I wish to raise the increasingly challenging financial situation that local authorities find themselves in. Rising inflation has driven up the cost of fuel, energy, payroll and pensions, while responsibilities and demands on local authorities continue to increase. This is particularly challenging for rural local authorities, like Tipperary for example, where we have an extensive roads network but a small rates base. This is particularly due to a lack of foreign direct investment bringing industry into counties like ours, unlike urban authorities that have a greater rates base. Three major demands are being raised with me as a representative in Tipperary, which our county councillors across the country are also talking about. One is the full restoration of the central management charge for water staff, which is a really challenging financial issue now facing rural local authorities. The second is a dedicated, adequately funded, multi-annual programme for the shared costs of concentric cabling, which is estimated at \u20ac700 million across all local authorities for 75,000 public lights. The third is a meaningful increase in the budget from the Department of Transport for our regional and local roads. Without those, our local authorities are looking at having to increase taxes and charges locally without improving services."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill The funding of our local authorities is so important, through both our rates base and all the other funding streams, including central government. I am aware of this issue. My colleague Deputy Michael Murphy raised it with us yesterday at the parliamentary party meeting. I am aware of it and I will highlight it to the T\u00e1naiste, who is also aware of it. We discussed it yesterday. I will also raise it with the Minister, Deputy Browne."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Shane Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Shane-Moynihan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Shane-Moynihan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Shane Moynihan It is time for us to crack down on the pop-up vape shops that are becoming blights on our streets in towns and villages around the country. We all know them. They have neon signs. They purport to sell sweets and are always largely empty. I want to compliment the Minister's work and the work of the Minister of State, Deputy Murnane O'Connor, on regulating vapes, but now is the time for us to consider a particular planning class for vape shops, similar to that which exists for off-licences, to ensure the proliferation we are seeing in areas like Clondalkin in my constituency is not repeated and maintained across the country. As well as that, it is time to resource the HSE to undertake a mystery shopper experience to make sure that vapes are not being sold to under-18s and that dangerous products are not being sold to the public under the guise of these vapes shops. We must also ensure An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na is aware of that effort and works in tandem with the Revenue Commissioners to make sure that these businesses are not fronts for something else and that vapes, which were designed as a nicotine replacement product, do not become a recreational drug of choice for so many of our young people across the country. I ask for the Minister's support in addressing those various aspects of this problem."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill I acknowledge Deputy Moynihan's repeated advocacy on this point. I also compliment the Minister of State, Deputy Murnane O'Connor, on her work in bringing through the legislation to prohibit the disgusting colours, flavours and whatnot to try to get children addicted to nicotine products. I assure the Deputy the Department of Health would enthusiastically participate in any initiative to reduce the number of vape shops being given planning and the proliferation of them in towns. It is bad for people's health and it is also bad for towns to see these repeated shops. I will certainly instruct my officials to engage in that, but it is a matter for the Department of planning and I will discuss it with the Minister, Deputy Browne. Deputy Moynihan can be assured the Department of Health would be enthusiastic supporters of anything to prevent the proliferation of vape shops."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed I welcome the recent announcement by the Minister for Finance in relation to Home Building Finance Ireland, HBFI, expanding its lending powers, but the prices it charges for lending are still way too high. This morning, for apartments, HBFI loans carry margins of 4.75% to 7.5% over what is called the Euribor. Those are rates of 7% to 10% plus. That is too high a cost of money for small developers. Small builders will tell you they have to recover all of those costs either from renters or from those who buy the houses. That is Government money; the rates are way too high. HBFI is also charging arrangement fees, such as 1% entry and exit fees. This is a State agency. It should not be charging arrangement fees. It should be lending money at really competitive rates, supported and backed by the State, so those small builders can get on with it and build those houses. What can we do to get HBFI lending at a good rate?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill I agree with Deputy \u00d3 Muir\u00ed. The cost of finance can be the difference between a viable housing project going ahead or sitting on the shelf, and that is particularly true for smaller builders, which is what HBFI is there to support. Cabinet has now approved the drafting of legislation to allow Home Building Finance Ireland to finance the purchase of land already zoned for housing before planning permission is in place. The T\u00e1naiste brought that to Cabinet this week and it is an important advancement because it helps smaller builders to secure their next site without having to tie up so much of their money upfront. That is it. We are trying to reduce costs for smaller builders and make sure they have access to finance in building homes. The terms have to work in practice and the aim is that HBFI offers genuinely competitive terms and rates for the risk involved on the full cost to the builder, including any interest rate and fees."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna ar Pholasa\u00ed n\u00f3 ar Reachta\u00edocht - Questions on Policy or Legislation"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_34","debateType":"topical","bill":null,"showAs":"\u00c1bhair Shaincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Matters","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_34","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Cheann Comhairle I wish to advise the House of the following matters in respect of which notice has been given under Standing Order 39 and the name of the Member in each case: Deputy Robert O'Donoghue - To discuss a school project in Rush, County Dublin. Deputy George Lawlor - To discuss why Sport Ireland and the Irish Martial Arts Commission recognise only one ITF taekwondo group. Deputy William Aird - To discuss staffing matters within the HSE. Deputy John Connolly - To discuss the proposed expansion of the Transport for Ireland bike rental scheme in Galway city. Deputy Fionnt\u00e1n \u00d3 S\u00failleabh\u00e1in - To discuss Bunclody AFC and the fallout of Clearwater going into liquidation. Deputy Michael Murphy - To discuss the need to strengthen Uisce \u00c9ireann accountability to D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann. Deputy Conor D. McGuinness - To discuss water services infrastructure investment and supply disruption i gContae Port L\u00e1irge. Deputy Ryan O'Meara - To discuss financial supports for community cafes. Deputy Cathy Bennett - To discuss efforts to secure a public sector pay deal. Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa - To discuss the difficulties experienced by people whose boilers have broken. Deputy Aidan Farrelly - To discuss the robustness of controls and follow-on checks in respect of the sports capital grant programme and related matters in respect of soccer clubs, their governing body and academies in County Kildare. Deputy Mark Wall - To discuss the ongoing overcrowding on train services. Deputy Thomas Gould - To discuss the deficits in local authority funding and the resulting increases to social housing rents. Deputy Darren O'Rourke - To discuss the supports that will be in place for householders who identify pyrite damage in their homes after the pyrite remediation scheme closes. The matters raised by Deputies Robert O'Donoghue, Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa, John Connolly, George Lawlor and Darren O'Rourke have been selected for discussion."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"\u00c1bhair Shaincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Matters"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_35","debateType":"topical","bill":null,"showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":false,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_35","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_36","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Schools Building Projects","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_35","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_35","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_36","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-O'Donoghue.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Robert-O'Donoghue.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-O'Donoghue.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Robert-O'Donoghue.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert O'Donoghue I know the Minister of State is aware of this project and I thank him for his engagement with it to date. I am asking him to make the school building project at St. Joseph\u2019s Secondary School and Gaelscoil Ros Eo education campus in Rush an absolute priority. They are not simply two schools coming together to form a campus in one building. They are two schools at the heart of a growing community and both are bursting at the seams. The accommodation in both schools is no longer fit for purpose or for the needs of the children attending them. Gaelscoil Ros Eo is now operating entirely out of prefabricated buildings. Let that sink in. An entire school community is trying to deliver education in prefabs, while children deserve and need a permanent modern school building. St. Joseph's Secondary School is also under enormous pressure struggling to accommodate pupils in a community where demand for school places continues to grow. Rush is home to one of the youngest and quickest-growing populations in the country and our schools are feeling that pressure every single day. As more families move into the area, more children will need school places. The pressure on existing facilities is becoming untenable. This population growth should be something to celebrate as the sign of a thriving, effervescent community, but we cannot celebrate it while failing to provide the basic public infrastructure that families need. These families have waited long enough. Parents have been waiting 15 years. As someone who went to St. Joseph's Secondary School, it could be argued we started talking about this back in the nineties. We are getting there but we are still at the stage of talking. I experienced those 15 years of broken promises as a member of staff at St. Joseph's Secondary School and as a public representative. Parents are now seeing their older children go to college while their younger children are still being taught in an unfit building. It is simply unfair that they do not have the facilities they deserve. A child who started primary school when these projects first became an issue may now be approaching third level. We cannot allow another generation of children to pass through the education system while this project remains outstanding. I understand the project is now at tender set stage and that the necessary documents will go fairly soon to the Department. This is a critical moment at which action and leadership on the part of the Department are needed. St. Joseph's Secondary School and Gaelscoil Ros Eo are not looking for special treatment. They are asking for fairness. The data shows the need that exits; there is no doubt about that. I ask that the needs of the children and families of this community are recognised and acted upon. We need this project to be prioritised and the paperwork to be progressed without delay. We need approval, commitment and a clear timeframe for delivery. We need to be on the next funding list for school builds. Our children should not have to learn in overcrowded classrooms or spend their school years in temporary accommodation because infrastructure has failed to keep pace with population growth. Every child needs a safe, modern and permanent place to learn. Every teacher deserves an environment in which he or she can teach. Every parent deserves the assurance that his or her child's school has the facilities it needs. Both of these schools have waited 15 years for their new campus. The children cannot wait any longer. I am asking that this project be prioritised once it comes to the Department. It is time to deliver it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister of State at the Department of Education and Youth (Deputy Michael Moynihan) I thank the Deputy for consistently raising this matter at every opportunity. I know how invested he has been in St. Joseph's Secondary School from his schooldays and through to the present. He has had considerable engagement with the Department and with me on this project over the past while. The campus project for St. Joseph's Secondary School and Gaelscoil Ros Eo represents an important element of the Department of Education and Youth's overall school building programme. The project is being delivered under the Department's major devolved programme, which works with external delivery partners, supported by a buildings officer, to progress it through the relevant stages of architectural planning, tender and construction. The delivery of the project has been devolved to CEIST. The project brief for St. Joseph's Secondary School provides for a 1,000-pupil post-primary school, which will include a four-classroom special educational needs, SEN, base. The brief for Gaelscoil Ros Eo includes the delivery of a 16-classroom primary school and a two-classroom SEN base. The project is currently at stage 2b, which is detailed design. During this stage, statutory approvals are obtained and the project design is further progressed to reflect any conditions of planning. In mid-June, Department officials contacted the school to advise that the project remains under review in the context of national development plan, NDP, parameters and the overall prioritisation of capital investment. The Department awaits submission of the stage 2b report from CEIST, which is expected before the end of the year. All school building projects, as they progress through the pipeline, must undergo the necessary due diligence outlined in the infrastructure guidelines and capital works management framework. The timing of a project moving from one stage to the next requires careful planning and takes account of factors such as compliance with all scope, design and cost requirements, timing of affordability and the prioritisation necessary for the school building programme to remain within the agreed annual budget. Department officials will continue to engage with the school over the coming months and to provide any necessary guidance. It is expected that the next tranche of projects to proceed to tender will be published in 2027. Prioritisation will continue over the coming months to identify this tranche of projects. This will be informed by the latest available demographic and capacity data, the Department's energy and condition inventory, the validation of which is due to be completed by early 2027, opportunities for phased development to prioritise the most urgent accommodation needs, and consultation with patrons and management bodies. The campus project for St Joseph's Secondary School and Gaelscoil Ros Eo will be considered as part of that prioritisation process, along with all other projects. I take on board the Deputy's points regarding this particular project. We are working with CEIST and the school authorities to ensure all paperwork and all reports are being processed through the Department, which is happening as we speak."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-O'Donoghue.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Robert-O'Donoghue.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert O'Donoghue I appreciate the Minister of State's understanding of the issues, including the working through of the documentation phase. Mercifully, as far as I understand, we are about to come out of stage 2b, where we have been for a long time. I totally accept the need for due diligence and for the process to be done properly. I know the Department constantly receives representations from all over the country about new builds, all of which, no doubt, have merit. Having attended St. Joseph's Secondary School and later worked there, I can say it is now more prefab than school. The square metreage per student is probably one of the tightest in the country due to the population growth in the community. My former colleagues at the school, as I am sure is also the case in Gaelscoil Ros Eo, are doing Trojan work in buildings that, with the best will in the world, have aged out. Students in St. Joseph's have to walk anticlockwise around the school to get to their next class because if they were to take the shortest route, it would be bedlam with more than 1,000 students in a building of that size. That process might have been useful during the Covid period but it is a necessity now. I very much appreciate the Minister of State's reply. My understanding is that the project is at the tender set stage. I am asking that once the documents go to the Department, which I hope will be sooner rather than later, that this project be included in the next tranche of funding under the 2027 list."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Moynihan The Department is awaiting the submission on the stage 2b report from CEIST, which is expected before year end. It is hugely important that there be no delay in terms of that documentation being processed. On the fundamental point, we are talking about one of the fastest-growing parts of the country. That means we are obliged to ensure we understand the need that exists at primary and post-primary level, not just this year or next year but into the future as well. It is important to make sure that CEIST is putting forward the documentation. From what I understand from the brief, there is no delay in that regard but it is important that it be presented to the Department as soon as possible. I assure the Deputy that I will go back to the officials and make sure there is no delay on our side. He has made his points well. I have answered a number of Topical Issues and questions here on school buildings but this is the first time I have heard about the need for an anticlockwise walk around a school to make sure the space is utilised as well as possible. Principals and school leaders have shown great innovation in dealing with what they have but that is a new one on me."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Schools Building Projects"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_37","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Social Welfare Benefits","counts":{"speechCount":18,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_35","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_35","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_37","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Ardagh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa This is an issue I have brought up previously with the Minister, Deputy Calleary. I have also brought it up with a number of the Ministers with responsibility in relation to housing. We need to deal with the issue. I imagine that almost everyone who has operated as a constituency TD in this place has come across people, generally older people, who come into their offices or make contact with them about a fossil fuel boiler that has broken. They do not have the money to fix it. In some cases, they would previously have been able to apply to the council to possibly get housing aid for older people and they would have been able to get it replaced. The councils no longer deal with fossil fuel boiler replacements and say they will only deal with refurbished boilers. I ask anyone to go out and try to find a refurbished boiler. It is a very particular issue. We are talking about people whose houses would not necessarily be airtight so there is no possibility, without huge expense, of making the house suitable for something renewable and sustainable like heat pumps. We know the long delays in getting these resources. I will go through one or two examples. An older man on disability allowance has a boiler that has been broken since about July 2026. He has had no hot water or heating since July and the council will not provide a grant for fossil fuel boilers, as I have stated. Again, this is what the community welfare officer had requested that we would do. Many of these housing grants are often shut down and closed during the summer by Louth County Council and other local authorities because of lack of funds. This is something the Government needs to look at. Obviously, everybody contacts the SEAI but there is no grant available for what we are looking for in these sorts of older homes. This man would be waiting for probably 15 months to be able to avail of the warmer homes scheme. He is left in a situation where he cannot get heating. He is paying a very small mortgage - it is a house he owns himself - from his disability payment but he has no funds to replace the boiler. He has provided quotes and bank statements showing that he has zero funds. We are talking about someone in a very difficult set of circumstances. He has no heat and no hot water and we are not able to get an exceptional needs payment. That is the crux of the matter. I have met many pensioners who previously had applied for their council grant and got their boiler fixed, time and again, and now they have been told the fossil fuel boiler is absolutely kaput. I am thinking also of a particular pair who I have spoken to in the last week. They are both heading for 70 and they do not know exactly what they are going to do, particularly as we get into more difficult weather. There is a man of 80 who has a wife with a disability and a number of older children with disabilities. Unfortunately, he tragically lost one during the year. There was the expense then in relation to the funeral. Again, he is not able to get his boiler replaced. The house is not suitable for a heat pump through the council grant scheme. He has failed to get it through an emergency needs payment. We have a failure at every level here. The Government has to be aware of the issue. The Minister of State has to be aware of it. We need to find a solution because this is not fair for all these people. This is only the tip of the iceberg."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Ardagh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration (Deputy Catherine Ardagh) I thank the Deputy. This is an issue we are all very much aware of, as the Deputy stated. I thank him for raising in the House those experiences of hardship as a result of boiler breakdowns. The Minister for Social Protection fully recognises the challenges faced by individuals who may be unable to access local authority grant schemes or who cannot wait for support through the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland programmes. Since 1 January 2025, European Union legislation prohibits the provision of public financial incentives for the installation of new stand-alone fossil fuel boilers, such as oil or gas boilers. These provisions were implemented in Ireland by the then Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications through the European Union's energy performance of buildings regulations of 2024. The policy objective is to support the transition to cleaner and more efficient energy heating systems. Additional needs payments provide financial assistance towards necessary expenses that a person cannot reasonably meet from their own resources. All applications are considered on a case-by-case basis, having regard to the individual circumstances and the legislative provisions governing the scheme. However, supports from the Department of Social Protection are not intended to cover circumstances where another Government Department or agency has the primary responsibility. Supports are available through local authorities and the SEAI, depending on a person's circumstances. The local authorities have a range of grants to help eligible households to improve heating and energy efficiency. While new fossil fuel heating systems are no longer funded, grants available may support alternative energy-efficient solutions. For example, the housing aid for older people grant can assist with essential home improvements, including heating repairs and upgrades. It can fund repairs to existing oil or gas boilers by a qualified contractor, or the purchase and installation of a second-hand fossil fuel boiler and alternative heating systems, such as electric heaters or biomass stoves, where appropriate. While grant schemes may not be immediately available or may not provide the level of assistance sought, the additional needs payment scheme is not intended to supplement or replace supports that fall within the remit of other Departments, agencies or local authorities. Generally, the maintenance, repair or replacement of heating systems in owner-occupied properties is not a cost that falls within the primary remit of the Department of Social Protection. Although the additional needs payment scheme is not intended to fund boiler replacements, assistance may be available and is provided to address an immediate heating need. This can include support for temporary heating solutions, such as a portable electric heater and emergency boiler repairs, where deemed necessary and appropriate and having regard to the individual circumstances. The community welfare service works to identify the appropriate response and to ensure that the person's needs, including facilities such as heating and hot water, are maintained. While I appreciate the difficulties faced by households dealing with unexpected heating failures, decisions under the additional needs payment scheme must be made in accordance with the relevant legislation and guidelines. The Department of Social Protection will continue to ensure that applications are assessed fairly and consistently, taking into account the individual circumstances presented in each case, and will do so on a case-by-case basis."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa I do not know where to start. On some level it is almost repeating the issue that the Minister of State has already stated exists. I accept she does not have the capacity here to deal with this very particular issue, but we need the Department of Social Protection, and the Departments of the environment and housing, to have a conversation on how we address this. We are talking about making sure people who were previously supported to get a heating system have that, which is absolutely necessary. In a perfect world, if we could get the warmer homes scheme and people could be dealt with in a short number of months, we would then have a solution for these people who do not have the resources that are necessary. The way that I read this, and I am sure I will read it a number of times, on some level it is just saying, \"Tough, we have no solution here\". I understand what has been said in relation to European Union legislation prohibiting the provision of public financial incentives for the installation of new stand-alone fossil fuel boilers, but we need to be able to find a solution. What is the point of having the Presidency of the European Council if we cannot even sort out simple issues like this that impact people and their ability to heat their homes? We are talking about homes that would take a huge level of expense and money these people do not have, even with SEAI supports, to get up to scratch so they could get a heat pump. They have no choice at this minute. They need to get some sort of support in relation to this. In every case, they have already tried to get these boilers fixed. Can someone tell me where you can get a second-hand boiler or a refurbished boiler? I would just love to know because I have not seen it. I have not seen anyone able to get it in a number of cases. I will be going directly to the Minister on this because we need to find a solution for these people, who are generally older. It is nearly always older people. Are we going to leave them without heating? We are talking about grant schemes that did exist before. This is not in any way good enough."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Ardagh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Catherine Ardagh I reiterate that the European legislation prohibits the provision of public financial incentives for the installation of new stand-alone fossil fuel boilers, such as oil and gas boilers, which was introduced in January 2025. It is a European directive and, yes, it has had adverse consequences. There are a lot of schemes when people are in receipt of their fuel allowance. We are seeing houses across the country wrapped in insulation. This has been really effective. The idea that someone cannot get a second-hand boiler, or a boiler cannot be repaired, is not fully true and a bit disingenuous. The Department of Social Protection recognises the difficulties facing-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa If a contractor says a boiler cannot be fixed, it cannot be fixed."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Ardagh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Catherine Ardagh The idea that people cannot fix a boiler or buy a second-hand boiler-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa It is incredibly difficult. Show me where to find one."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Ardagh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Catherine Ardagh -----and that there are no alternative schemes available, is completely disingenuous. In my constituency of Dublin South-Central, so many houses in receipt of fuel allowance are receiving ancillary support from the SEAI. The Deputy has to acknowledge that, at the very least."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa I have seen people who have been refused fuel allowance because someone in the house with intellectual disabilities was getting a disability payment."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Ardagh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Catherine Ardagh When I was a member of the social protection committee, we had members of the Northern Irish social protection committee down and they could not believe the amount of grants we had available here. They were in awe of the SEAI and all that we provided. I just think the Deputy should say thanks and acknowledge-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa What about these people? They are hardly going to say thanks."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Ardagh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Catherine Ardagh ----what we are doing."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jerry Buttimer Who is the First Minister and the finance Minister in the North?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa Deputy Buttimer knows the realities in the North in relation to the British Government, does he?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Ardagh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Catherine Ardagh Why does Deputy \u00d3 Murch\u00fa not just start with acknowledging the great scheme that is the SEAI?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa Deputy Buttimer is failing to deal with the issue of partition."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jerry Buttimer Do not go down that road."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Ardagh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Catherine Ardagh The Department of Social Protection recognises the difficulties faced by households when a boiler breaks down, and we all recognise that for our constituents, particularly during the colder periods and where access to alternative options may have a lead-in time. However, it is important to note, in particular in respect of the additional needs payment the Deputy raised, that the scheme must operate within its legislative framework. It is not intended to replace, duplicate or address shortfalls in schemes administered by other Departments."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Social Welfare Benefits"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_38","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Cycling Facilities","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_35","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_35","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_38","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy John Connolly Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an Aire St\u00e1it, an Teachta Buttimer, as a bheith linn chun an t-\u00e1bhar seo a phl\u00e9. T\u00e1 m\u00e9 ag iarraidh an sc\u00e9im roinnte rothar, mar a oibr\u00edonn s\u00ed i gcathair na Gaillimhe, a ard\u00fa inniu. The Transport for Ireland, TFI, bike-sharing scheme has been in operation in Galway city for a considerable number of years. As a member of the local authority there, I was always somewhat frustrated that the operation of the scheme had some link to the local authority but was mainly administered nationally by TFI or the National Transport Authority, NTA. I always found it difficult to get precise data on the usage of the scheme. The NTA always advised us that the scheme is being used widely but, as the scheme currently operates, the kiosks are limited to a number of city centre areas. The suburbs are not really serviced by the scheme. There is no kiosk for the operation of the scheme in Salthill, which is a tourism destination. Knocknacarra is a significant western suburb of the city with a population of over 10,000 but there was no kiosk there for the bike-sharing scheme. There was no kiosk at the Atlantic Technological University, ATU, on the Dublin Road in the Renmore and Mervue area, which would allow people to rent a bike in the city centre, cycle to those destinations and return the bike at a kiosk there. I always felt the scheme was not really fulfilling the needs of the population, who would be open to using it. We have seen investment in cycling infrastructure and want to see more. We have seen some enhancement and there are further enhancement proposals for cycling infrastructure in the city. It would be beneficial if this scheme was available. One of the issues with the scheme in Galway is that e-bikes were never a feature. They were all traditional pushbikes. Before I left the local authority, one of the last motions I proposed there was that the new scheme, as it would operate in Galway city, would include electronic bikes. It is often noted that Cork is an area where e-bikes were important because of the hills. There are also hills in Galway city where e-bikes would have made it easier to use the scheme. In September 2025, I got a response to a parliamentary question from the NTA. It advised me that under the current scheme, a number of e-bikes had been procured and were in operation in Cork for test use, and that another batch of the e-bikes would be available in early 2026 and would be put into operation in the other cities, including Galway, as part of the regional scheme. The reply stated that the current contract was due to run out in August 2026. The response also advised me, and this was very welcome, that following a review the NTA had undertaken of the existing scheme, the objective was to expand the scheme and increase the fleet size in each of the cities, so that bikes could be used by more people in more parts of the cities. As I outlined, in Galway the scheme was very limited, so that was particularly welcome. The response said that the NTA was particularly keen to improve coverage in those areas that are underserved. It also noted that, thanks to technological advancements, the use of kiosks for the return of the bikes was no longer seen as important or necessary. New technology would allow people to return the bikes without having to go to one of the kiosks that were only centrally located. This all seemed to be progressing well and the NTA advised me it was hoping to commence the operation of a full new scheme in summer 2026. Unfortunately, something has occurred. For some time, I have been trying to raise this as a Topical Issue to see where the current development of the new scheme lies, and when we might see the expansion of the scheme in Galway city and the inclusion of e-bikes. I am delighted the Minister of State is here today to debate this issue. I hope we can see it progress quite soon."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister of State at the Department of Transport (Deputy Jerry Buttimer) Ar an gc\u00e9ad dul s\u00edos, gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an Teachta Connolly as an \u00e1bhar seo a chur os comhair an T\u00ed, a bhaineann le cathair na Gaillimhe. I thank Deputy Connolly for raising this important matter. I am taking it on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, who sends his apologies. I thank the Deputy again for his very insightful contribution. As he knows, the Government is committed to providing sustainable transport options that reduce reliance on private car use, support climate action objectives and offer convenient alternatives for everyday journeys. As the Deputy referenced in his contribution, research commissioned by the National Transport Authority has shown that every euro invested in active travel between 2021 and 2030 generates almost \u20ac4 in benefits to society when assessed over a 30-year period. We also know that walking and cycling remove up to 660,000 cars from the road each day in our five largest metropolitan areas of Dublin, Cork, Galway, Limerick and Waterford. Galway in particular is a very congested area. We see resultant benefits to congestion levels, transport emission reductions and individual health. The Government is committed to making cycling a feasible transport option in our cities and towns, including Galway. We are encouraging a modal shift away from private car use. To this end, the TFl bikes rental scheme, a shared public bike rental scheme, has operated successfully in Galway, Cork, Limerick and Waterford. The scheme has grown in popularity, with more than 300,000 trips recorded across the network during 2025, representing a 40% increase on the previous year and exceeding pre-pandemic usage levels. The scheme has been in place in Galway since 2014 and is currently operated by Telfourth Limited, trading as An Rothar Nua, on behalf of the NTA. Having been canvassing in Galway in the by-election, I am fully conversant with and support the Deputy's views on Salthill, Knocknacarra and ATU as places for the kiosks. It makes eminent sense, given the volume of people and the potential usage. At present, the NTA is in the process of procuring a successor to the TFI regional bike schemes for Galway, Cork, Limerick and Waterford. The tender is currently live. It is imperative that we preserve a robust and fair procurement process. As such, I am limited in what I can say further at this stage. The successor scheme's objective is to deliver significantly expanded services with larger fleets, wider geographical coverage, as we have spoken about, and a substantially increased proportion of electric bicycles. I would love see the Deputy in Cork on an e-bike as well. A feature of this new approach is that docking stations are not a requirement for the new service, and that more flexible operating models, such as a mixture of docked and dock-free infrastructure, can and should be considered. This would allow bicycles to be parked at designated locations, enabling services to reach a greater level. The final model is still to be determined. Deputy Connolly specifically asked about the timeline for expansion in Galway. I am advised by the NTA that the tender process was well advanced and was expected to conclude this year. However, recent changes arising from the Government decision to pause funding for public e-scooter schemes, which formed part of the original procurement approach in certain cities, have necessitated a retendering of the project. The NTA relaunched the tender in September. Subject to the outcome of that procurement process, it is now expected that contractors will be selected in early 2027, with mobilisation and transition arrangements to follow. In the meantime, I assure the House that the current TFl bikes contract has been extended until August of next year to ensure continuity of service and avoid disruption for existing users while the procurement process is completed. In lieu of the fact that we have an active procurement process, it would not be appropriate for me to comment on commercial aspects but I assure Deputy Connolly that our objective date regarding the delivery of the significantly enhanced shared micro-mobility service in Galway remains 2027."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy John Connolly I thank the Minister of State for the response. I am glad there has been some level of explanation in this regard because we had previously been advised that the new scheme would operate in 2026. There is a rational explanation in the Minister of State\u2019s response as to why it has been delayed. The contract initially included a public e-scooter scheme. Obviously, with the changes the Government has made to the use of e-scooters, there is a necessity to retender the project so that change is accounted for. I now understand why the scheme could not proceed. I welcome that clarity. In his contribution, the Minister of State reiterated a lot of what I said regarding the importance of encompassing the suburbs of the city, the tourism locations and the universities, including the technological university, in the new scheme. I welcome that this has been reiterated today. That is the type of scheme we need. I am somewhat disappointed, however, that we will not see a new scheme until 2027. We will not see the introduction of e-bikes in Galway city until that point. Those suburbs and other locations will not be serviced until that point either. However, I am heartened that we are proceeding and that it is being taken on board. I wish to raise a point that the Minister of State might bring back to the Department and the Minister, Deputy O\u2019Brien. Galway is currently undergoing the review of the metropolitan area transport strategy. It is the last of the regional cites to have the review of the transport strategy. I would like the local authorities to be directly involved in that review, before the publication of the draft. I have a sense that the NTA is working on a draft metropolitan area transport strategy for Galway, which it will publish and then welcome contributions from the local authorities. The local authorities should be more directly involved than that, however. The data around the current bike scheme would be useful, both as a discussion point for the local authority and in the development of the new transport strategy. This scheme should be part of this new strategy. It should include bikes. Maybe we need to include areas beyond some of the suburbs in the scheme as well. I thank the Minister of State for his response."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jerry Buttimer The Deputy makes eminent sense. As a former member of a local authority, who knows a local area better than the officials and public representatives in the local authority? It is critical that the NTA engages on the metropolitan area transport strategy. It is absolutely an imperative. If it does not, it will lose the data available from the council. It will make the whole iteration of the strategy poorer. I will not stray into the process because I do not want to get into complications but the replacement scheme being progressed by the NTA represents a major opportunity to build on the success achieved to date, with a combination of larger fleets, a greater geographic coverage, which we spoke about earlier, and a new emphasis on the electric bicycle. That is important because more and more people are looking to use an electric bicycle, or e-bike. Of course, the new scheme for the city of Galway has the potential to make shared mobility available to more people. Deputy Connolly will be aware that Galway City Council received an allocation of \u20ac9.5 million this year alone for the progression of approximately 25 active travel projects, including funding for the TFI bike scheme. That includes initiatives such as the safe routes to school programme and the right cycle training, which is delivered in all counties, including Galway. There is also the whole overarching philosophy and theme of fostering sustainable travel habits among young people with a view to more people shifting away from the car. In my city of Cork, we have seen the success of the e-bike scheme. It is critically important. It is a vital part of the effort that we all use to encourage people to use and choose sustainable transport. I thank Deputy Connolly for highlighting the importance of the programme in Galway. I will ensure the matters raised are brought to the attention of the Minister, Deputy O'Brien. I look forward to further engagement with Deputy Connolly on the matter because the areas he spoke about, particularly Salthill, would benefit and be enhanced greatly from this scheme."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Cycling Facilities"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_39","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Sports Organisations","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_35","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_35","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_39","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Ardagh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy George Lawlor Traditional taekwondo, under the auspices of the International Taekwon-Do Federation, ITF, is the biggest martial art in the country, with an estimated 30,000 people practising it around the country. In Ireland, there are more than 350 ITF taekwondo clubs. One association, the Irish Taekwon-Do Association, represents approximately 100 of these clubs. The Irish Taekwon-Do Association and its international federation were only registered in 2007. The older taekwondo groups in Ireland are much longer established, both nationally and internationally, and their members are much more senior in rank, with numerous grandmasters and senior masters in the craft. On 4 October 2020, the Irish Martial Arts Commission, IMAC, which is the national governing body, NGB, for martial arts in Ireland, passed a motion recognising the Irish Taekwon-Do Association as the sole association member. By passing this motion, the IMAC, immediately excluded or locked out approximately 250 clubs nationwide. Since then, I visited a club in Kilcarbry, County Wexford, which is located just outside Enniscorthy, run by master Peter Crosby. The quality and standard of the skills being offered to both the young and not so young are immense. I was blown away by the activities. This move, in essence, excluded thousands of students of taekwondo from accessing public, taxpayer funding for courses in sports education and sport leadership, particularly for women. It has inhibited Garda vetting for instructors. It is obstructing the application of sports scholarships at university level, as some universities only recognise IMAC and Sport Ireland sports. In order to access these services, the other 250 clubs around Ireland will be forced to join the Irish Taekwon-Do Association, which is contrary to what happens in other jurisdictions. For example, in the UK, the British Government recognises the fragmented ITF world bodies under one umbrella, namely, the British Taekwondo Council. Funding and education courses are distributed equally and more fairly. In Ireland, however, this is not the case. IMAC and Sport Ireland allow other fragmented martial arts, such as karate in Ireland, to be recognised but not the fragmented strands of ITF. The Irish Taekwon-Do Association makes up the majority of the board in IMAC, comprising eight of the 13 board members on the committee. There is a huge conflict of interest in this regard. Eight members of the ITF, who do not recognise 70% of their own members, control the IMAC, which is a publicly-funded body. There are serious questions regarding governance and the existence of proper constitutional frameworks. All of this goes against the ethos and policies of IMAC and Sport Ireland around equality and inclusion in sports. I ask the Minister of State to request a formal update from Sport Ireland on its engagement with the Irish Martial Arts Commission and its implementation of the arbitrator recommendations of the Sport Dispute Solutions Ireland, SDSI. I also ask that Sport Ireland examines IMAC\u2019s stance on excluding thousands from the services and funding offered by IMAC and Sport Ireland, which is, once again, public funding. Many taekwondo students from across Ireland are being excluded. They are seeking fair and equal access to the recognised sporting system and the opportunity to work with other organisations to strengthen governance, safeguarding, coaching standards, participation and welfare across the sports. Students should not be forced to join the Irish Taekwon-Do Association in order to access public funding. It should be for all who participate in the sport."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Ardagh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Catherine Ardagh I thank the Deputy for his contribution and I note his requests. The Minister for Culture, Communications and Sport, Deputy Burke, is aware of concerns regarding the representation of organisations operating in similar sporting disciplines and codes within the recognition process for national governing bodies of sport, NGBs. However, it must be stated that the recognition process for NGBs is governed by published criteria and established procedures. Decisions regarding recognition are made independently by Sport Ireland. In particular, part of the criteria for recognition is that a recognised NGB must not already be involved in organising the same or similar sport. This criterion is essential to prevent duplication and the splintering of the sport ecosystem. Ultimately, it would be unsustainable for Sport Ireland to formally recognise multiple organisations as NGBs for the same or similar sports and provide core and high-performance funding on that basis. This is why Sport Ireland advises affiliation with existing national governing bodies, NGBs. Sport Ireland, which is funded by the Department of Culture, Communications and Sport, is a statutory body with responsibility for the development of sport, increasing participation levels and raising standards, including the allocation of funding across its various programmes, including NGBs, for sports development and high-performance programmes. Sport Ireland does not provide direct funding for clubs or individuals but channels the funding through the relevant national governing bodies. The Irish Martial Arts Commission, IMAC, is the Sport Ireland-recognised national governing body for martial arts in Ireland. Sport Ireland provides annual investment to this organisation to support the development of the sports within its structure. IMAC is constituted to represent a range of martial arts disciplines and organisations and represents those interests in its engagement with Sport Ireland. Taekwondo Ireland is recognised by Sport Ireland as the national governing body for Olympic-style taekwondo and is recognised by World Taekwondo and the Olympic Federation of Ireland, Sport Ireland and the European Taekwondo Union. Sport Ireland operates a formal recognition process for organisations wishing to become eligible for support as NGBs. The recognition criteria set out minimum requirements for NGB recognition and the additional criteria that may need to be met to receive financial assistance and investment from Sport Ireland. Organisations interested in engaging with Sport Ireland regarding recognition as a national governing body are encouraged to engage directly with Sport Ireland in that regard. Sport Ireland could then advise on the detail of the application process and consider the application on its merits. The relevant organisation can request a formal meeting with Sport Ireland to discuss its proposed application and the wider process prior to submitting a formal application for recognition as an NGB to Sport Ireland. All national governing bodies of sport recognised by Sport Ireland, such as the Irish Martial Arts Commission, are independent, autonomous bodies and are responsible for the operation of their own sport. National governing bodies are responsible for their own governance. This includes the support provided to their clubs, athletes and wider membership structure, and matters relating to members, events, disciplinary procedures, safeguarding, anti-doping compliance and the development and implementation of strategic plans to grow and sustain their sports at all levels. The national governing bodies of sport recognised by Sport Ireland are at the centre of Irish sport. NGBs are key delivering agencies for Sport Ireland in the achievement of its strategic and operational goals. Sport Ireland works across a broad spectrum of martial arts organisations to support the development of best practice in governance safeguarding, anti-doping, coaching standards, club development and the promotion of inclusive participation across all levels of sport. Neither the Minister nor the Department has any role in individual recognition decisions made by Sport Ireland, nor would it be appropriate for them to intervene in such decisions. While decisions on recognition are a matter for Sport Ireland, the Minister recognises that questions around representation, participation pathways and the development of sporting disciplines are important issues for organisations across the sporting sector, including those that are not currently recognised by national governing bodies."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy George Lawlor There is something wrong somewhere when we have 30,000 people engaged in taekwondo to a high standard in Ireland. As I say, we are talking about youngsters who are knee-high right up to people who are much older practising this sport. There are 30,000, yet the overarching body that is recognised by Sport Ireland is excluding in excess of 20,000 of those from accessing the benefits of the funding from Sport Ireland. There is something wrong with the notion that Sport Ireland would say that is grand and that it will recognise only the umbrella organisation when 20,000 people who are practitioners of taekwondo are excluded. There is something wrong when IMAC is governed solely by a majority of people from the Irish Taekwon-Do Association. Let us not forget that this is public money and more than 20,000 people who are practising this sport are excluded because a decision was taken back in 2020 during Covid at an online meeting that the sole organisation would be the Irish Taekwon-Do Association. By passing this motion, IMAC immediately excluded and locked out 250 clubs right across the country. I have been contacted by many of them on foot of my visit to the Kilcarbury Club in Wexford. If this was not public funding, it would be a different issue, but when 20,000 people are excluded from benefiting from that funding by an overarching umbrella organisation, Sport Ireland has to intervene and ask the question. I asked earlier for a formal update from Sport Ireland on its engagements with IMAC and the implementation by IMAC of the Sport Dispute Solutions Ireland recommendations. I asked Sport Ireland to examine IMAC in particular regarding its stance on excluding thousands from the services funding offered by IMAC and Sport Ireland. I ask the Minister of State that those two requests please be met. We are not looking for the moon."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Ardagh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Catherine Ardagh I thank the Deputy. I will convey his request to the Minister. I take on board what he is saying. The current national sports policy runs to the end of 2027 and is responsible for establishing Ireland's first national framework for sport, setting out objectives to increase participation, strengthen governance, enhance high-performance sport and increase investment across the sector. Development of the successor national sports policy is being progressed through a phased approach and will provide an opportunity to take stock of progress under the current policy and identify where future policy interventions can have the greatest impact. Through a performance evaluation, sectoral consultation, international best practice review, stakeholder engagement and policy mapping, the Department is undertaking a comprehensive evidence-gathering process to inform the successor policy. This may be an opportunity to re-examine the issues relating to taekwondo. The work is examining the effectiveness of existing policy measures and implementation structures, identifying areas where policy approaches may require strengthening and assessing future priorities for investment and action."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Sports Organisations"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_40","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Defective Building Materials","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_35","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_35","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_40","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Ardagh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Darren O'Rourke I raise a number of concerns about the decision to close the pyrite remediation scheme to new applications on 30 November of this year, and in particular the implications for homeowners who may be left without any meaningful avenue of support. I acknowledge that the scheme has made a huge difference by providing an important remedy for thousands of homeowners whose properties have suffered significant damage as a result of pyritic heave. However, I am concerned that the decision to close applications risks leaving a significant number of people in a very difficult position The first question I want to put to the Minister of State is straightforward. What happens to someone who discovers pyrite in their home on 1 December 2026 or thereafter? Perhaps they have recently purchased a property or have never had a reason to suspect a problem. Perhaps they discover cracking, lifting floors or other evidence of damage in the months or years ahead. The application window will have closed. Does that mean they are simply on their own or will there be any mechanism to assess their circumstances and provide assistance? The second issue is potentially even more concerning. There are homeowners who know that their properties contain pyrite at this time, but their homes do not have sufficient damage to qualify for remediation. We know that the scheme is based on the extent of the damage rather than simply the presence of pyrite. It was extended and that was welcome, but that is still the case. What happens to a homeowner whose property contains pyrite but does not yet meet the eligibility threshold? Pyritic heave can develop over time. A property that does not demonstrate significant damage today may deteriorate in the future. Does the Minister expect those homeowners to simply wait and hope that their homes do not deteriorate? If the damage does deteriorate after 26 November, what recourse will they have, if any? I am concerned that we could end up with a situation where people know there is a problem with their homes but where the State has withdrawn the mechanism through which they could seek assistance. The third issue concerns entire housing estates and communities. There are developments where pyrite has been identified and where individual homes may not have suffered significant structural damage. However, the presence of pyrite in an estate can have consequences well beyond the physical condition of an individual dwelling. Would-be buyers, for example, report difficulties obtaining mortgages and securing finance. Homeowners report selling their properties and achieving a fair market valuation as being a major problem. Think about what that means for a family who want to move house, perhaps because their family is growing or they need to relocate for work or they want to downsize. They may have maintained their home, paid their mortgage and fulfilled all their responsibilities, yet can find themselves effectively trapped in a property because of an issue associated with the development in which they live. Even where an individual house is not displaying significant damage, the stigma and uncertainty surrounding pyrite can have a real financial impact. How does the Government intend to address that problem?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Ardagh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Catherine Ardagh I thank the Deputy for tabling this question. The Pyrite Resolution Act 2013 provides the statutory framework for the establishment of the Pyrite Resolution Board, PRB, and the implementation of the pyrite remediation scheme, which is administered by the PRB with the support of the Housing Agency. The provisions of the Act apply solely to dwellings affected by significant damage attributable to pyritic heave resulting from the presence of a reactive pyrite in the subfloor hardcore material. The scheme was established to remediate such dwellings where the swelling of hardcore beneath-ground floor slabs caused significant damage. The scheme, as we all know, was launched in February 2014 and has been running for over 12 years. It is expected a total of 3,017 homes will have had remediation completed by the end of this year at a cost to the taxpayer in excess of \u20ac205 million. In November 2025, the Government approved a significant expansion to the damage eligibility criteria under the scheme to ensure that additional homes within affected areas could be remediated as the scheme enters its final phase. Under this widening of eligibility, the PRB will evaluate each eligible application using strict qualification criteria. Applicants approved will follow the existing eight stages of pyrite remediation with an additional assessment step. The scheme engineer will revisit the property within a defined period to reassess whether any progression has occurred as determined by the PRB. The Housing Agency will oversee assessment and testing on behalf of the PRB. The scheme will close to applications on 30 November 2026. The works programme will continue until the end of 2029, when it is expected all dwellings that have been significantly damaged as a result of pyritic heave will be remediated. In June 2026, a periodic critical review of the PRB in accordance with the Code of Practice for the Governance of State Bodies was published. Section 4.2 of the review recommended that a working group be established to assist the PRB in the wind-down process of the scheme. The review proposed that the working group members include management from the PRB, officials from the Housing Agency and the Department of housing. That group has been established and will provide guidance and support to the PRB on matters relating to the wind-down of the scheme including additional pyrite cases following the scheme closing for applications, press and homeowner communications, legislative requirements, financial and contractual obligations and staffing arrangements."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Darren O'Rourke I appreciate the Minister of State's response, particularly the point about the working group. However, I return to the central issue because it is a really important one. There is a fundamental difference between a house that has been remediated, a house that has been assessed and found to have significant damage, and a house where the presence of pyrite has been established but where the damage has not yet progressed to the required threshold. Those are three different circumstances. I am particularly concerned about the third category. We cannot simply assume that because a property does not meet the eligibility criteria, it will never require remediation. I ask the Minister of State if the Government will retain a mechanism to deal with those cases if the damage progresses. Has she any indication with regard to the working group and its timeline? It has been established. For example, when will it propose how additional pyrite cases following the scheme's closure will be dealt with? That is a really important question. I again raise the case of wider impacts on housing estates. A homeowner can have a perfectly liveable property with no significant visible damage but still face enormous difficulties when trying to sell or remortgage their property because pyrite has been identified in the development. It is important that the Minister and the Department engage with the banking sector, mortgage providers, insurers and property valuation professionals to establish a consistent and fair approach to homes in pyrite-affected developments, particularly where individual apartments or homes are not affected. I think the Minister of State will agree they are important issues."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Ardagh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Catherine Ardagh I know it holds up a lot of sales and causes a lot of consternation for people purchasing and selling their homes, but the pyrite remediation scheme has operated successfully for over a decade. It has helped fix thousands of homes during that period. However, in the last few years, the number of applications to the scheme received by the PRB has fallen significantly. The PRB has recommended that the scheme be wound down in a planned and controlled manner with a primary focus on the needs of homeowners. In addition, a smooth wind-down is required for the Housing Agency, building contractors, engineering consultants and the PRB. An end date of 30 November 2026 has been set for submission of applications by homeowners for remediation of their homes. Adequate and appropriate notice of the end date for receipt of applications has been provided, including through a public advertising campaign run by the PRB. Significant damage to homes from pyrite should have been identified and evidently present by this time. To address the Deputy's point, the working group will assist the PRB in the wind-down process of the scheme including technical aspects associated with the potential for additional pyrite cases into the future, following the scheme closing for applications. The working group will complement and guide the work of the PRB, and it is anticipated the working group will be operational for between 18 and 24 months starting in September 2026. Further information on the working group's activities is available from the Pyrite Resolution Board, contact details for which are available on its website, pyriteboard.ie ."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an D\u00e1il ar fionra\u00ed ar 2.17 p.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 2.59 p.m."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sitting suspended at 2.17 p.m. and resumed at 2.59 p.m."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Defective Building Materials"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_41","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":false,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_41","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_42","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Student Accommodation","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_41","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_41","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_42","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fionnt\u00e1n \u00d3 S\u00failleabh\u00e1in","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fionnt\u00e1n-\u00d3-S\u00failleabh\u00e1in.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Fionnt\u00e1n-\u00d3-S\u00failleabh\u00e1in.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_42.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fionnt\u00e1n \u00d3 S\u00failleabh\u00e1in","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fionnt\u00e1n-\u00d3-S\u00failleabh\u00e1in.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Fionnt\u00e1n-\u00d3-S\u00failleabh\u00e1in.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Fionnt\u00e1n \u00d3 S\u00failleabh\u00e1in Is the Minister concerned that some students are paying up to \u20ac16,000 per year for purpose-built student accommodation, sometimes up to \u20ac400 per week even, while the delivery of purpose-built student accommodation has fallen to a reported 20-year low, with only 657 beds delivered in 2025 and 419 expected in 2026, which is a very small number? Has he assessed the value-for-money implications of the proposals announced in the budget whereby private developers will build student accommodation that is then leased back to third-level institutions? It is bad economics."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science (Deputy James Lawless) Tr\u00e1thn\u00f3na maith to the Cathaoirleach and the Teachta\u00ed. I am going to deal with the Deputy's question in two aspects. I will talk about affordability and then I will deal with viability because both are critical in the delivery of student accommodation. I am very mindful of the challenges faced by students in that respect. Viability goes to supply and incentivising supply and affordability is whether students can afford it, which is also a critical factor. The Deputy cited a figure of \u20ac16,000 per year. I invite him to send me details of the correspondence he got those figures from, though I am not doubting that some students may be paying up to that amount. The Higher Education Authority, HEA, survey cited an average rental cost of \u20ac700 per month for a student. That is obviously well below the figure the Deputy cited. That is an average and there will be some below it and some above, but if the Deputy sends me that correspondence I will be happy to have a look at it. It is important to note that the HEA survey found that the average rent for a student is \u20ac700 per month. In the recent budget I was very pleased to be able to deliver a number of additional, tangible supports to reduce the cost of college for students and their families. This included a \u20ac34 million student-support package which builds on the package I introduced last year and packages previous Ministers introduced before that. It includes things like a reduction in the student contribution fee of \u20ac150, meaning \u20ac600 was permanently taken off that fee between the past two budgets, and all SUSI grants going to people in disadvantaged circumstances increasing by 4.5% across the board. Those grants are critical. That is coming in in January; we are not even waiting for the new academic year but putting it into effect immediately. There is also a new student contribution grant for families who are above the traditional SUSI threshold but have two or more children in college at one time and are finding that a struggle even though they are on what might be considered higher incomes. This means that families on a household income of up to \u20ac150,000 now qualify for significant support in terms of student fees being heavily discounted where there are two or more children attending college. I will come back to the viability issue in the next round."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fionnt\u00e1n \u00d3 S\u00failleabh\u00e1in","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fionnt\u00e1n-\u00d3-S\u00failleabh\u00e1in.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Fionnt\u00e1n-\u00d3-S\u00failleabh\u00e1in.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Fionnt\u00e1n \u00d3 S\u00failleabh\u00e1in It is very bad value for money when it is done through private developers. I have a localised question regarding my area. In terms of the South East Technological University, SETU, Wexford, how many student accommodation beds will be provided? If there is no student accommodation plan there, what assessment has been carried out on the impact this would have on Wexford town in terms of local house prices and rental prices? Waterford has a figure of 426 student places. If that engagement has not been done, why not? Have there been any discussions on providing accommodation for SETU Wexford, which we are all waiting for? Has the Minister thought about earmarking a budget for that? It is crucial that we have dedicated, purpose-built student accommodation in Wexford town. Otherwise we are creating the housing crisis of tomorrow with the policies of today."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James Lawless To go back to the question about value for money, in order to assess whether something is good value for money or not we need to know the cost and benefits. Neither are known, so I do not know how the Deputy can say it is bad value for money. He does not know what the value of the proposition is. As he said, a lot of private money is being spent as part of this. The State is not actually spending the money and, therefore, the value for money consideration in terms of public moneys does not arise in some cases where the private sector is coming in as part of it. Undoubtedly, however, there is and has been a viability problem. The construction of student accommodation almost fell off a cliff during Covid. It ground to a halt for multiple reasons. Covid was a big factor. In terms of viability, there is the costs of construction since, the inflation in the costs of building materials and labour and all of the factors that have made all types of development challenging. Student accommodation is accommodation at scale and we are building 300-, 500- and 600-bed apartment blocks. It is very expensive. That is why I have intervened significantly with the new student accommodation strategy, launched in March. Only this week I brought to Cabinet a proposal for 3,300 new beds to be put into the system as part of that strategy. That is the first phase but we will roll out multiple further phases in the weeks and months ahead."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fionnt\u00e1n \u00d3 S\u00failleabh\u00e1in","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fionnt\u00e1n-\u00d3-S\u00failleabh\u00e1in.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Fionnt\u00e1n-\u00d3-S\u00failleabh\u00e1in.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Fionnt\u00e1n \u00d3 S\u00failleabh\u00e1in The figure of \u20ac400 per week that was mentioned earlier was brought up as part of the student accommodation strategy at the higher education committee. I ask the Minister to check it out. To go back to the point about the southeast, many students from north Wexford, where the Minister and I are from, and south Wicklow, are very interested in attending college in Wexford. I find it ironic that Georgia Southern University in the United States is providing accommodation for its students in the Adoration Convent in Wexford town. It is absolutely fantastic that it is happening but it is ironic that a US university is providing for its students but we are not providing for local students from counties Wicklow, Wexford and Waterford in that area. That is a bit of a contradiction. Does the Minister not think the same?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James Lawless I am confused as to why the Deputy would say that because SETU, the local university he referred to, has multiple plans for student accommodation. I will set out what is proposed as it is important we are all on the same page. I am happy to do a briefing for the committee. I have been before it already and I am sure I will be in again soon. The strategy is starting in Dublin, Cork, and Galway as the three biggest university cities. On Tuesday of this week I announced 3,300 beds being activated through that on sites like Grangegorman in north Dublin, IADT in D\u00fan Laoghaire, Atlantic Technological University, ATU. in Galway and Munster Technological University, MTU, in Cork to name a few. Multiple other sites are being put out for expressions of interest as well. We will then move to the next range of cities, which will be Waterford - obviously SETU has a presence there - Limerick and Athlone. We will then move to the next round, which will be other locations, working with the technological universities and traditional universities. We have already engaged with them in a significant sense. I have met with SETU representatives multiple times on the Wexford, Waterford, and Carlow campuses and many other sites. We absolutely work with SETU and I am very keen to make sure that continues. As regards Georgia Southern University, in a way that is the strategy working. If a private provider wants to come and provide student accommodation, it helps the overall situation. The more supply we get, the better."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Student Accommodation"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_43","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Third Level Education","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_41","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_41","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_43","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jen Cummins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_43.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jen Cummins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jen Cummins I want to discuss how we can ensure that institutions which are advertising third level courses and saying they are able to be registered with the Teaching Council are in fact able to be registered with the Teaching Council. A number of people have come forward to the media and to me with regard to Portobello Institute, which has advertised a number of courses, stating that a student who undertakes one of those courses will be registered with the Teaching Council. This is not correct."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James Lawless I am not at all impressed with what has seemingly happened in Portobello in terms of courses being marketed one way and transpiring to have a different quality or citations when they come out. The Teaching Council is the regulator of the teaching profession in Ireland and its role is to protect the public. There is a very strict statutory framework for accurate information being provided to learners signed up to any course. That is covered under section 67 of the Qualifications and Quality Assurance (Education and Training) Act 2012 as amended. There is a policy and criteria for access through the various agencies which monitor that, primarily Quality and Qualifications Ireland, QQI. Programmes leading to a national framework of qualification, NFQ, award go on the Irish register of qualifications. That oversight is constantly maintained. One of the difficulties with Portobello is it is actually managed under the UK regulator. It applied to the UK regulator for accreditation. Universities can do that and many of them operate under different headings. Georgia Southern University was mentioned in the last question. Indeed, Irish universities provide services in other jurisdictions as well. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with that but, as it is accredited by a different jurisdiction, the QQI regulations are not applicable to it in the same way as would be the case if it was registered under QQI. I have asked my officials to engage with QQI on this issue and QQI has set up a meeting as a result of that with the UK regulator, namely, the Office for Students, to discuss the issues arising from this case and examine what actions can be taken now and in the future. I have asked for that meeting to take place and when it has occurred I will be in a position to update the Deputy further. I will be following this closely because I am not one bit happy with the way it happened. With this kind of situation, students enter a contract. They sign up to a particular agreement. They are offered a course place and accept it. There are legal entitlements arising from that as well. Students might be well advised to look at the legal framework around that and what other recourse they may have."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jen Cummins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jen Cummins I absolutely agree with the Minister. It is scandalous. One of the students paid \u20ac18,000 to do a course in physical education, PE teaching. He is already a teacher and wanted to do the course to allow him to teach PE but the course is not recognised. The institution is using a different jurisdiction to get the qualification but the issue is its advertising. Am I correct in thinking it is the Minister\u2019s Department that is able to enforce that? Where does the buck stop, ultimately? There is a little bit of confusion. It does not stop with the Teaching Council or QQI. The university is falsely advertising and people are being left out of pocket. It was reiterated in letters to the students that the course was going to be registered with the Teaching Council. It is now changing that on its website because so many people have been complaining. There have been complaints in the media, and rightly so. Nobody should have to. One person in the media said they felt like an idiot and felt as if they were the only one affected. Many people have been affected. Whether it is this institution or others, this needs to be stopped straight away."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James Lawless I thank the Deputy. I agree, and share her frustration. Portobello College is a private college and operates under UK accreditation. It is entitled to do that. It is a free market and there is freedom of services and so on. That is a slight difficulty in this instance because it is not a part of the Irish QQI landscape. It is not a part of the system. Students have recourse to the Ombudsman. They also have recourse to a private law scenario. They have entered into a contract. They have paid fees. They had a certain representation made to them at the time of entering into that contract and it has not turned out to be correct. I advise those students to consider seeking legal advice as to what options may be open to them. It would appear to me that they have a strong ground for grievance based on what has since transpired. More broadly, QQI is on top of qualifications and accreditations, with constant monitoring and rigour being applied to all the courses under its remit. It works with the Teaching Council in the instance of teacher education but many other professional bodies also feed into QQI for the different types of courses being offered. It is not acceptable."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jen Cummins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jen Cummins It is a stark warning to students to watch out in respect of what they are being advertised. To reiterate, they can go to the Ombudsman. The private law option is fine, but it is expensive. Engaging any solicitor is very expensive. My first question is: which Ombudsman should they approach? I want to be clear for people who are listening in. Which Ombudsman should they approach? Is there a possibility for the Department or somebody in government to help these students, who have paid out thousands of euro for these courses in the belief they would be able to do it? This is affecting students coming through different routes who have three years to apply to do a recognised course. They have done that or have undertaken to do that. They thought they were doing a correct course and they are not. They are now in a situation where they are outside that framework with regard to the Teaching Council routes as outlined. I want to be clear for people who are listening. There is a lot of fear out there and a lot of money has been spent. Yes, they have knowledge, but it is not going to get them anywhere in terms of teaching. We have a teacher crisis in many subjects. We need to get on top of this. I thank the Minister."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James Lawless This appears to me to be false advertising. That is not acceptable. Having said that, it is a private institution, offering private courses that are accredited by the UK. It is not a State body or a state-aided college. It is not a part of the public system at all. There is a certain freedom of contract whereby individuals can sign up to any learning platform or other course or service provider of any kind, whatever it happens to be. In this case, it is an educational service. I agree with the Deputy that students should be very careful with what they are signing up to. They must ensure that any offering is watertight before they enter into that contract. The Deputy said that solicitors are expensive. Those students should have a consultation. It is up to individuals what they choose to do. That may not prove to be the case, depending on the outcome and depending on where things go. It is obviously up to all individuals to consider their own circumstances but I certainly would not want any student who may be considering that option to fear it because of prohibitive cost. They would have a conversation the first time they ring up and can see where that goes. There is only one Ombudsman. There may be special ombudsmen for other areas, such as the Pensions Ombudsman, but for consumer law, into which this issue falls, and consumers being dealt a hard and unfair deal, there is only one Ombudsman's office. That is where I would direct students. I am engaging with QQI and have directed its representatives to speak to its UK equivalent. The law may restrict what I can do, but in the spirit of the law, I am asking the college to engage to see what we can come up with."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Third Level Education"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_44","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Student Accommodation","counts":{"speechCount":9,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_41","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_41","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_44","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donna McGettigan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donna-McGettigan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Donna-McGettigan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_44.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donna McGettigan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donna-McGettigan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Donna-McGettigan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Donna McGettigan Will the Minister provide details of the student accommodation programme that the Department rolled out, the progress made and the beds that have been delivered to date?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James Lawless I thank the Deputy. It is a good opportunity to revisit Deputy \u00d3 S\u00failleabh\u00e1in's question and talk through the details a little more. Addressing student accommodation is a key priority for me, the Government and my Department. I mentioned in response to Deputy \u00d3 S\u00failleabh\u00e1in's question that there was a viability and supply issue coming out of the Covid-19 pandemic. Beds were not being supplied at any real scale. There have since been a number of Government interventions to address the issue. The short-term activation programme ran from 2024 until 2026. It was an immediate intervention to see if we could fast-track some projects that had stalled for different reasons. From that, we now have three programmes up and running. The Maynooth programme has been completed, with 116 beds in Teach U\u00ed Bhuachalla. I have been there and visited. It is open, with students now occupying those beds. University College Dublin, UCD, has 493 beds up and running under that short-term activation programme. They are under construction. I was on site approximately two weeks ago. When I visited, the project had reached roof height. It is flying along. It is expected to be ready for next year, which is good. I also approved a project for Trinity Hall in Dartry for Trinity College Dublin, which is its student accommodation residence. I approved an extension of 358 beds. Shovels are expected to go into the ground early in the new year. The project is progressing to tender stage at the moment. Those projects came from the short-term activation programme. More broadly, the student accommodation strategy, which I introduced in March this year, and which I mentioned in response to a previous question, sets out to engage with colleges around the country to identify sites that are suitable. We have done the first phase of that. Four sites are now at the expressions of interest stage. Those sites are at the Atlantic Technological University, ATU, Galway; Grangegorman in north Dublin; the Institute of Art, Design and Technology, IADT, in D\u00fan Laoghaire; and the Munster Technological University, MTU, in Cork. We are taking expressions of interest for those four sites now and until 27 November. I encourage anybody who is following the debate to tune into that and if there is any interest, I ask people to come in and engage with the process. We have also put out a general call for sites that are in the vicinity of colleges in those three cities. We ask people to come forward as part of the expressions of interest."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donna McGettigan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donna-McGettigan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Donna-McGettigan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Donna McGettigan What I am reading into the student accommodation strategy that the Minister released is that it has potential, it will support potential and the Minister anticipates it will deliver. I do not see any concrete delivery numbers. I see it will support 42,000 beds by 2035. That is, on average, 4,660 beds per year. If you look at the short-term activation programme, which the Minister just mentioned, it has so far delivered 116 beds, with the possibility of a total of 967 beds in seven years. We then have DCU, which was originally mentioned in the short-term activation programme. It spent over \u20ac4 million on planning and design, and that seems now to be thrown out. This can be salvaged, but it will require the Minister stepping in to help. Will he commit to doing so? If we look at the current cost of construction, according to a University of Galway submission to the committee, we see that it stands at \u20ac230,000 per bed. Over a 25-year lease, that is \u20ac9,200 per year. How much would rent cost? The private investors are out there to make money. In order to make profit, it will cost more than \u20ac9,200 per student per academic year. That does not even include service charges."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James Lawless The Deputy mentioned seven years. I do not know where that figure came from. It is two years. It started in 2024 and we are now in 2026. We have 116 beds with students in them. We have 493 beds at roof height in UCD. The Deputy is welcome to go out and visit. I am sure the college would be glad to host her to see that construction site. I have also approved Trinity Hall in Dartry for Trinity College to progress with another 358 beds. I am confident that shovels will be in the ground in January. That is real progress. One site is finished and open and two other sites are under construction or very soon to commence construction. That is real progress. On the wider ambition for 42,000 beds, there was a need to kick-start viability in this process because it had stalled because of various factors and for the reasons I gave a moment ago. That is happening with the strategy. We are now opening to expressions of interest. We will continue. The Deputy mentioned the DCU project. Ultimately, it did not represent value for money. A colleague rightly raised the issue a moment ago. Value for money must be front and centre for every consideration of public moneys. However, the university is welcome to participate, and I fully expect it to participate, in the expressions of interest stage currently running for the student accommodation strategy in Dublin."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donna McGettigan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donna-McGettigan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Donna-McGettigan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Donna McGettigan How is the Minister persuading investors to build student accommodation that is affordable when they will not even own the land? Will institutions be exposed to liabilities similar in nature to borrowing as they would be leasing lands on their own campuses to private developers, especially when they have no control over the use of the property or the ability to set the rents? What rent would the Minister consider affordable? I referred to seven years. It will probably be 2029 before the project at Trinity College is finished. That means it will have taken from 2022 to 2029, which will be seven years, to deliver 967 beds. That is where that figure comes from. Will Student Universal Support Ireland, SUSI, have to be expanded to help students pay for rent, meaning more public money going to private investors? Those investors are questioning why they should have to pay millions to build student accommodation on land they will never own. If the Government gets them to build, what state will the buildings be in after the lease runs out? What will it cost the State to bring them back to standard? We know those investors are about profits and are hardly going to pour money into the projects coming up to the end of the lease. It is pie in the sky and there is no concrete delivery."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James Lawless I am still a little confused. The Deputy is operating in good faith. I very much take her as being sincere on these issues, but I do not know where the seven years come from, because they started in 2024. I would be absolutely horrified if it took seven years to build a project started this year. It should not take seven years. It is at roof height already."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donna McGettigan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donna-McGettigan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Donna-McGettigan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Donna McGettigan It was outlined in 2022, and it will be 2029 before it is finished."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James Lawless The project did not start until 2024, however. The short-term activation programme began in 2024. It is now 2026. We have one open already because the one in Maynooth is completed. The one in UCD is at roof height. For Trinity, there will be shovels in the ground in January. The latter might take until the end of 2027. UCD has told me that it expects to have its one open in September of next year. For Trinity, we are probably looking at a year to build. We are talking about two or three years rather than seven. Either way, I want this done as quickly as possible in order to provide beds. The Deputy mentioned a figure of \u20ac230,000 per bed. That goes to the heart of it. If we want to build 40,000 beds, the capital injection required to do that, if it were purely public moneys, would be billions. That money simply is not there. If it were to be taken from the Exchequer, we would need to look at the opportunity cost for course delivery for apprentices, higher education, research, innovation and the entire school system. If we can partner with the private sector to attract private capital and work with the public, these sites will ultimately revert to the State at the end of the process. In other words, the State will own them ultimately. That is a good day's work."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Mark Wall) The next question, which is in the name of Deputy Kenny, will be taken by Deputy Lawlor, by agreement."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Student Accommodation"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_45","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Technological Universities","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_41","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_41","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_45","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_45.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James Lawless The Deputy has a long-standing interest in this matter. I am sure Deputy \u00d3 S\u00failleabh\u00e1in has as well. There was mention of it already. The Minister, Deputy Browne, is also very invested in it. I am sure all the Wexford representatives are keen to see this project deliver at pace, as am I. That is one of the reasons that, shortly after assuming this role, I went to Wexford and met the officials involved with my team. Just before December of last year I announced this was moving ahead at full speed. The update I can share with House is that the business case has been submitted by SETU, as the lead delivery entity in this, supported by Wexford ETB. That was approved by the SETU board and has been lodged with us in the past couple of days. That is significant progress, because it allows us to start looking at the delivery plan. That business case is being reviewed by the Higher Education Authority. As I said, it has been signed off on by the governing authority of SETU and the ETB, which is a major milestone on moving ahead with the project. The Deputy probably knows more about it than I do from his time on the council, but I walked the land, inspected the site and it is moving forward. It is a priority. On student accommodation, my understanding is that the business case submitted includes any proposal for student accommodation. If the bodies wish to revisit that at a later stage, they are welcome to do so. However, this is primarily focused on a learning centre. It will probably be the first tertiary, end-to-end educational campus in Ireland to offer apprenticeships, further education, SETU undergraduate degrees and, potentially, research opportunities and PhD courses on a single site. It will be an end-to-end tertiary campus just on the edge of Wexford town. As I said, I visited the site. What is happening there is really exciting. It is really positive, and I will be keeping shoulder to the wheel to move it forward in the time ahead."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy George Lawlor I thank the Minister for his comments. He is correct that this is an issue for me and others in Wexford. The funding was made available to IT Carlow for the purchase of a site in Wexford in 2015, so progress has been quite slow. However, we are progressing well now. On 11 January 2023, I, as cathaoirleach of Wexford County Council, signed the CPO process. To be fair, the county council has driven this. No other council in the country was in a position where it had to use a CPO in order to make provision for a third level entity. I am disappointed to hear that accommodation does not form part of the business case. For a town like Wexford, which we hope will have a large number of students descending upon it, not having accommodation available is regrettable. Will the Minister look into adding such accommodation?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James Lawless I will certainly involve myself in the process to move it ahead, give it a bit of additional impetus and accelerate progress. That has resulted in the notice to entry being served, the site becoming available and the business case being formulated jointly by SETU and the ETB. As stated, in the past few days the business case was submitted to the HEA, which is responsible for allowing it to proceed. It includes a very significant ambition in terms of the tertiary campus I mentioned. On student accommodation, in reply to earlier questions I mentioned the strategy that is being rolled out on a phased basis. Colleges are being invited to submit sites for consideration as part of that process. That is currently live in Dublin, Cork and Galway. A number of sites on campuses have been identified by the colleges and are subject to expressions of interest. More broadly, we are also inviting private landowners in the vicinity of colleges to come forward. It is in Dublin, Cork and Galway at present. It will be in Limerick, Athlone and Waterford next and will then be extended throughout the country. I have no doubt that Wexford will be a major part of that process in due course. If the relevant agencies want to submit sites, they are welcome to do so."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy George Lawlor It is great to hear that we are making progress. It has taken a long time, but we are driving this forward. There is a lot of land available at the site in question. The campus will not take up the bulk of it. It is imperative, therefore, that we future-proof this and access some of the land that is available in order to build student accommodation. We are delighted that this campus will be constructed, and it is great to hear that the business case has been submitted. Wexford is one of the most populous counties in the country. We are heading for 180,000 people. That is many more than live in Carlow or Waterford, yet the relevant entities in the latter are the overarching bodies within SETU. Wexford needs this campus. It also needs to be future-proofed in order that it might grow. I know the site well. The area of Killeens is very close to where I live. There is a lot of land available there and the campus, as the Minister says, will not as it stands take up a large portion of it. This means there is a possibility for us to strike now and include accommodation within it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James Lawless Again, I am open to any proposals that SETU or Wexford ETB want to submit. There is an appetite, certainly on my part, to support them in any proposals or vision they may have. I am aware there are other plans for the campus with Wexford County Council and other stakeholders looking at wider infrastructure pieces there. I suspect other buildings may be decanted as part of this development as it comes on stream. That will create opportunities for educational buildings to be repurposed, possibly for student accommodation or other centres of learning, other training or whatever else. I know the people involved in the ETB and SETU. They are people of ambition and substance, and I have no doubt they will want to get the best possible provision for students in the Wexford area. I will certainly work with them to keep the project moving forward, as I have done already."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Technological Universities"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_46","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Third Level Fees","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_41","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_41","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_46","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donna McGettigan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donna-McGettigan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Donna-McGettigan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_46.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James Lawless The programme for Government does not contain a commitment in respect of abolishing student fees. I do not know how many times I have to repeat it, but I advise anyone who thinks it does to read the programme for Government. If they can find such a commitment, I will be amazed, because it is not there. To talk about fees more broadly, I have reduced the student contribution fee by \u20ac650 over two budgets. That is permanent. It is there to stay. It is not going anywhere. It is not evaporating. It is not a temporary intervention that will be gone next year but a permanent, sustainable, costed, affordable intervention. We focus a lot in these debates on the headline fee. It is more instructive to look at how many people actually pay that fee and how many do not. A huge number of students do not pay it at all because they are rightly subsidised and supported by SUSI paying the fee in full or paying 50% of it. There is also a new measure I have introduced in this budget for any family with up to \u20ac150,000 in household earnings - which I hope every Member will agree is a decent and well above-average household income - being eligible for significant supports. It is almost \u20ac2,000 of supports if you are in that bracket and have three students attending college. We have a range of measures applying right up to households with income of \u20ac150,000 to support families with the cost of fees and, more broadly, the cost of education. I introduced a \u20ac34 million package in this budget, as well as cutting the headline fee and introducing the families measure, which supports any household with two or more students in it. I also increased all SUSI grants by 4.5%, along with a number of targeted interventions for particular cohorts, for example, students who have a pregnancy during college and may have an additional support need, students with disabilities and students with a mandatory placement as part of their course. There is a number of targeted interventions introduced as part of the budget to help different cohorts, as well as the headline figures, SUSI grants and all the other measures in that package."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donna McGettigan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donna-McGettigan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Donna-McGettigan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Donna McGettigan When the Minister talks about reducing fees, he has to understand the reality that students are still paying \u20ac350 more than they were when Simon Harris promised to abolish them. I do not think the Minister gets the reality of how student fees and the rising cost of living are affecting students and their ability to attend college. For many students, going to college is a daily financial struggle with registration fees, accommodation, food and transport all putting huge pressure on students and their families. We have recently seen students taking to the streets and protesting to highlight the need for more affordable education and greater supports. These protests show how frustrated students have become with the financial struggles they face. If, as he says, the Minister is doing his best and all he can, then he needs to hear what they are saying because they would not have had to protest if things were going so great for them. Some students cannot even afford to attend certain days of lectures because of the cost of travel. We have the dearest free education in the world and it is time to abolish student fees so every student has an equal chance of success."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James Lawless It is certainly not the dearest in the world. If we go 100 miles north, it is double or treble the cost in the Northern Ireland Administration. It is three times in the UK and probably five times across the Atlantic in the US. If we go around the world to Australia and New Zealand, we see fees that are multiples of ours. Our comparators are the Anglosphere because that is where students move around. We are probably one of the cheapest of the anglospheric countries in terms of the base fee rate. I will continue to examine fees and other measures that affect the cost of college but there is a real problem if the Deputy is telling me a student has a \u20ac150,000 household income and is still struggling. What is going wrong there? I genuinely ask that question. Do people have scenarios, examples or case studies of households with \u20ac150,000 coming in? That is well above the median or average income. The fee is already down to \u20ac2,350. If there are two or more students in the household, that is slashed considerably more. I will continue to examine it but let us be aware of who will benefit. It is the really high incomes - probably the top 10% in incomes - who are left paying full fees. Other students have been subsidised in full or in part."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donna McGettigan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donna-McGettigan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Donna-McGettigan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Donna McGettigan Is it any wonder students do not feel their voices are being heard with that answer? The Minister may say \u20ac150,000 is great but he is not taking in all the circumstances. He is not taking in everybody in that household. Because this Government cannot give them a house, some students' status is based on their parents' income, not their own income. That is wrong. Students need to be listened to. The Minister knows as well as I do that we do not hold the purse strings in the North. They are held in Westminster but our MPs in the North have made sure we pay one third less than in England. They are putting their students front and centre. Directing that point to me does not wash. Students need to be listened to. It is that simple. We have students at food banks and period poverty banks and having to live on floors or couches. That is the reality. The Minister needs to listen to that and to the students."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James Lawless I listened to the students yesterday by meeting the AML\u00c9 executive and this morning by meeting the SUSI executive, the people who administer the grants. I listen to them all the time. We have strong, constructive discussions and we drill into the real cost. I have no doubt that cost and access are challenging for many but it is important we have an honest conversation about who benefits if we continue to chip away at fees. Higher income families will benefit. There is nothing necessarily wrong with that but we should be clear what we are advocating for and why. The measures I have taken so far involve a dual approach. I will do my best to continue to reduce the baseline fee but I will also add targeted supports to increase SUSI grants, to increase fee subsidies where there are two or more children in the house, to bring in a 50% fee payment for middle-income families, to pay it in its entirety for low-income families, to bring the student accommodation strategy to bear, to give support to students with disabilities, to give additional access funding in colleges and to assist with placements where students have to take them on. All of these are targeted measures addressing real problems that have been raised. Perhaps they are more important than families on over \u20ac150,000."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Third Level Fees"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_47","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Student Accommodation","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_41","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_41","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_47","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_47.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy John Connolly Student accommodation has been discussed extensively already but I ask specifically for an update on the expression of interest process for purpose-built student accommodation."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James Lawless I launched the student accommodation strategy in March of this year. It sets out a long-term framework to increase accommodation supply, improve affordability and support sustainable delivery of student accommodation nationwide. The strategy was approved by the Government in March and now the focus is on implementation. Part of the strategy is the higher education student accommodation programme, HSAP. That is being advanced with the Higher Education Authority and the National Development Finance Agency, NDFA. Phase 1A went live on Monday. That means we have identified four sites. We are starting with Dublin, Cork and Galway, as the three largest university cities. We have an expression of interest process. We have worked with the colleges in those three cities, starting with the technological universities. We have sites in Grangegorman, north Dublin; IADT in D\u00fan Laoghaire; ATU Galway - I think it is at the Galwegians pitch; and MTU Cork. Those four sites have been identified through working with the colleges as being good to go. The colleges have put those forward and we are taking expressions of interest at this very minute. More generally, we have appealed for landowners, public or private, with lands in the vicinity of the colleges. If they want to come forward with a site they suggest is suitable for student accommodation, we are more than willing to hear from them. The next phase, following swiftly on, will be the traditional universities - UoG, Trinity, UCD, DCU, UCC and so on - around Dublin, Cork and Galway. We will move to that 1B phase in a few weeks' time and will continue to roll that out across different locations. That is a tangible gesture of intent. I expect from the four sites I mentioned we can realise up to 3,300 beds. If other private sites come onto the radar through the expression of interest process, we could have many thousands more."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy John Connolly The Minister is right. It shows intent that the strategy was launched earlier this year and we already have four locations in three urban centres, as the strategy is set out, and we are seeking expression of interests. I particularly welcome the expression of interest for ATU. The Minister is right that it is the Galwegians site adjacent to the college. It could not be any more proximate, which is very welcome. It is very reassuring for parents of students travelling to an urban area that they get accommodation in close proximity to the college. We are asking the third level institutions to look at their own land banks first to see where they can facilitate the provision of purpose-built student accommodation. In that process, are we looking at nomination agreements, licensed sites and Government support for site servicing? In the urban areas, there will not be a massive need for additional site servicing but will the Minister give some more information on how the State is supporting the process?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James Lawless There is a number of factors. The four on-campus sites I mentioned are subject to the expression of interest process. We have invited parties to the table to see what they are willing to do. We will engage with them on the detail. I expect in the on-campus locations a nomination agreement is likely. The college will then engage with a developer to build the accommodation, lease it at scale and make it available to students. On privately owned sites in the vicinity of a college, the developer may operate it or may enter into an agreement with the university to lease it in the same way. There are more options around those sites, to an extent. Site servicing is on a case-by-case basis. Some sites may require capital works to have them ready; others may be better structured to go. There may be more viability around some sites than others. Where a site requires assistance, we are prepared to give that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy John Connolly That is really welcome. A lot of Deputies have mentioned that at the recent meeting of the higher education committee at which the institutions were present, the issue of viability was prevalent and widely discussed. It is very welcome to hear from the last part of the Minister's answer about the State's willingness to engage with the institutions on costs that might be encountered in enabling this development. On the nomination agreement, the Minister mentioned that there is engagement not just with the institutions but we are welcoming of people who are coming forward to express an interest in development here. Is the Minister confident that we can overcome the viability challenge? That is the fundamental question. In noting that question and the Minister's response already that the State is ready to assist in the servicing of sites, it would be helpful to us all to know about the Minister or the Department\u2019s insight in terms of the viability issue."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James Lawless We absolutely needed to have a strong intervention, and that is what I done with this strategy. I hope and expect that it will bear fruit and come good. The Deputy is right about that viability challenge because there are 16,000 beds already out there with planning permission but have not commenced construction. That speaks to the viability. If somebody goes to the effort of identifying a site and getting planning permission but then does not proceed to build, we have to ask why. I asked why last year when I came into this role. That is one of the reasons I have launched the strategy subsequently. The strategy has a toolkit to address that viability issue. The viability issue arises for a number of reasons coming out of Covid. The entire construction industry had to be ground to halt during Covid. When it restarted, we had the war in Ukraine and we have had other wars since. We all know the cost of materials, building, labour, etc., have all significantly increased since. There was a viability issue. Regarding the likes of the nomination agreements, sites servicing, the sites being identified, the on- or off-campus options, the support from the NDFA and others that are part of this tapestry, I hope they provide a real viability injection that will get this moving and drive it on."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Student Accommodation"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_48","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":false,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_48","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_49","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Further and Higher Education","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_48","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_48","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_49","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Clendennen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_49.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James Lawless I thank the Deputy. I have a strong interest in this area. I have been working to look at the skills of the future economy and the skills of the future society. What do we need to provide in terms of future-proofing our labour force and, indeed, building out the skills for the next generation? One of the group reports that was sent to me and advised me was the expert group on future skills needs. I also have the National Skills Council. Those groups look at exactly these questions, such as what are the skills in an age of digitalisation, demographic change, deglobalisation and many other factors. They are things like the Deputy mentioned, such as AI, cybersecurity, data analytics and cloud technologies. I would also add things like green skills and renewable energy. We need a significant energy capacity to power industry in the years ahead. Regarding construction skills, modern methods of construction need to be supported. We have the Mount Lucas side gainfully employed doing that and many others. One of the findings that the report highlighted was that there is a concentration in the Dublin, eastern and midland region for those skill sets. That reflects the employers in those areas, innovation clusters and the strength of local skills ecosystems. While the Deputy is a midlands Deputy like me, we are familiar with that landscape, but it is important that we focus on regions as well and make sure that all the country is supported in terms of the skills that are needed. That is why there are now nine regional skills forums up and running, with my Department working with further education and training, FET providers, ETBs and the higher education institutes in each area looking at skills on a regional level to see what skills are there and what gaps exist. It is not necessarily one size fits all. There might be certain areas, for example, the Atlantic coast, which is prime for offshore skills to be developed. Other areas have different niches. We see that within industry with life sciences, pharma and technology. There are natural clusters that form in certain areas and there is a lot of sense to that. I might come back in my response to talk a little bit about the National Training Fund and some of the submissions."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Clendennen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy John Clendennen The Minister mentioned Mount Lucas, which has visited several times. My sense from the likes of Mount Lucas is that we are developing locally or regionally for a practice globally. That is the unique opportunity of it. Whether it be the likes of the Laois and Offaly Education and Training Board, LOETB, level with Mount Lucas or even at a university level if I look at the likes of Shannon College of Hotel Management, which is focused on tourism and that global luxury experience piece, there is a learning there in terms of the template that can be applied. As the Minister said, to ensure that investment does not become cluttered in one particular area, potentially on the suburbs on Dublin, we have to apply it regionally. One of the unique parts of this, and it is a risk in many ways but in other ways it is an opportunity, is how it is evolving in front of our eyes and the need to be agile and adaptable to it and to ensure that happens with a constant monitoring process but also ensure that there is adequate investment in the area. That is one of the key components of it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James Lawless I have visited Mount Lucas on a number of occasions. The Deputy is always there, and Deputy McCormack is a great supporter of that facility. The Minister of State, Deputy Harkin, has visited it a number of times as well. We are very supportive of that. It is a great centre there. More broadly on the fast-moving space that is AI and digitalisation, one of projects that I have started is a series of skills round-tables where I go out to meet industry in different sectors and bring all the training providers into a room along with employers, IBEC and other representative groups and have a conversation about what the skills needs are in this very fast-moving landscape. I have done that with technology, AI, construction, legal and financial professionals. In two weeks\u2019 time, I will do it with the energy sector in terms of understanding the skills needs they have, the gaps and how we can fill those gaps. That is very worthwhile. That will feed into training delivery and policy in relation to the coming months and years."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Clendennen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy John Clendennen The Minister makes a very valid point on that need for engagement, but it is also that need for reassurance to employees and workers. There is almost a growing expectation that jobs are just going to be eliminated by the new time. That is not going to happen in reality. There is always going to be a need for human capital and human engagement. That is something that we cannot underestimate here. It is to support workers, protect those jobs and engage with those investments from a corporate perspective to ensure that we are bringing that regional investment. We have to look at adaptability into the future. There has been talk about how we can possibly use the National Training Fund better, but also how our tax system needs to evolve over time to ensure that we are embracing this. If I look at the likes of the midlands, there is a huge opportunity to tap into the likes of that grid infrastructure, both from digital infrastructure and renewable infrastructure. That creates huge opportunity."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James Lawless I do not disagree at all. The Deputy is right. On the taxation, one of the measures that I advocated for in next year's budget and it was introduced was the broadening of the research and development tax credit to allow more institutions to participate in that. Previously, the research and development tax credit was research done within the company or corporation. Now, a university or an education provider in the area can subcontract that work out and take it on, and then the spend qualifies under the research and development tax credit. That is very useful because it means that companies can engage with local research institutes or universities. It is a new source of revenue for the universities and the institutes. Working with the Minister, Deputy Chambers, I secured \u20ac150 million from the National Training Fund for an AI and future skills package. The ink is only dry on it but we are putting together the detail of that at the moment as to how we roll that out. However, it will include the reassurance that Deputy referred to, and he is right. We need to have skills for people to move into the new post-AI world as well."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Further and Higher Education"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_50","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Third Level Costs","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_48","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_48","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_50","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_50.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy John Connolly There has been a lot of discussion already about the costs of third level education. I ask the Minister to explain the way in which budget 2027 is specifically supporting students with the cost of third level education."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James Lawless I thank the Deputy very much. It was a priority for me coming into the budget, as it has always been, to listen to students and their families about what supports they needed to access further and higher education. One of the things that I tried to do - rightly or wrongly but I think rightly - is similar to what I did with the employers. I went out and met the students and listened to them. I met a number of student unions. I meet AML\u00c9 regularly. I held a cost of education event where I convened all the stakeholders together. I and the Minister of State, Deputy Harkin, listened to them and spoke to them all over a course of a day to understand what the needs were. On the basis of that, I introduced in next year's budget a \u20ac34 million student support package, which delivers significant improvements across the student support framework. That includes things like a 4.5% increase in the SUSI maintenance grant that will benefit 54,000 students, an increase in the special rate of maintenance grants and an enhanced student contribution grant for families with more than one dependent student at tertiary education. That measure will be really impactful and probably has not received the exposure it deserves. For the first time, there is recognition that a family with two or more students attending higher education at the same time has a pinch point and pays for the costs associated with that. There is an accelerated grant for such a scenario. Depending on the income band, fees could be paid in full for those students. As I said, they are heavily subsidised, up to a level of a household income of \u20ac150,000. I hope everyone will agree that, considering the CSO figures, that is well above the average household income. Families with very decent incomes are now eligible for support through the grant system for the first time if they have two or more children in college at the same time. That is in addition to the \u20ac650 reduction across two successive budgets on a permanent basis in the student contribution fee. The most any student can pay is \u20ac2,350. A family with two or more children and household income of up to \u20ac150,000 pay a lot less."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy John Connolly I thank the Minister. It should be acknowledged that a package of \u20ac34 million is not to be sneezed at. It is a significant support for students as part of budget 2027. There is a great appreciation for the work he is doing to reduce costs for families across the country. I agree with him on the level of support for families who earn up to \u20ac150,000. It is significant. One has to examine whether it is a level playing field from the start. Eliminating fees for everybody has to be scrutinised in terms of whether it levels the playing field or gives a further advantage to people who already have one. I admire the Minister for taking that stance, and I agree with, and compliment him, on it. Accommodation contributes to the cost of third level accommodation. We have spoken about viability. One of the challenges regarding the viability of constructing student accommodation is that one of the measures that could close the viability gap would be to increase the cost of student accommodation. I am sure the Minister will agree that is not what we want."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James Lawless I thank the Deputy for his comments and appreciate his support. It is important that any measure we introduce is targeted at people who really need it. I have a very simple political philosophy, namely that those who need the most help should get the most help and we should target scarce State resources in that way. That is an important principle. It is also important that any interventions are evidence-based and based on need and staggered accordingly as we move through the spectrum of different scenarios. The Deputy is correct that we want to avoid a situation whereby new student accommodation is delivered but rents are prohibitively high. Supply is part of the equation. We know rents are high. The HEA survey tells us that the average rent is \u20ac700 per student per month. I appreciate it is higher or lowers than that in certain areas. We want to make sure that we do not get to a stage where new accommodation, in particular, is prohibitive."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy John Connolly I thank the Minister. The baseline academic achievement that industry now looks for is a postgraduate qualification. How will budget 2027 support postgraduate students? Given that industry now seeks a postgraduate diploma or, in many cases, a master's degree, as the minimum educational achievement for employment, how can we support more people to attain that level of education? We have to consider how we can support that. Of course, there are additional costs for postgraduate students. Many postgraduate students are not working. In the past people did a master's degree while in a workplace, but many students now go straight to postgraduate study."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James Lawless A number of scenarios arise regarding postgraduate students. They are eligible for SUSI and fee support in most scenarios, depending on means and need. It is an area I am exploring more widely. I recently launched a review of doctoral education in Ireland for PhD students to examine the entire framework of PhD education. One of my objectives is to increase the number of PhDs in Ireland. For our knowledge economy, skills and ideas it is imperative that doctoral students come on stream. Doctoral students have a propensity to go on to create a company or have an idea which lights a spark and generates multiple jobs. Of course, they contribute to the pursuit of knowledge and scientific discovery, which is important. I am exploring the concept of industrial PhDs, which would allow PhD students to be embedded in a workplace and solve a real world problem, supported by employers. It is something I intend to bring forward as part of this. It will not be the only option, but we will provide support for students who avail of it."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Questions Nos. 165 to 167, inclusive, taken with Written Answers."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Third Level Costs"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_51","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Apprenticeship Programmes","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_48","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_48","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_51","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_51.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister of State at the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science (Deputy Marian Harkin) My Department sponsors WorldSkills and the record attendance of 32,000 at this year's event is very encouraging. It reflects a growing interest in apprenticeships and skills-based careers and highlights the importance of continuing to promote these pathways. I was delighted to attend WorldSkills, along my colleague the Minister and the energy and enthusiasm that was so visibly on display in the room demonstrated to us the vital role that skills play in supporting careers and driving economic growth. This growing interest is reflected in the most recent national survey of apprentices that found 87% of apprentices enjoyed their apprenticeship experience and 94% believed it would lead to good employment opportunities. The Deputy may not be aware of this, but at this point in time there are 89 different apprenticeships available and 31,000 apprentices were in the system in 2025. As Minister of State, I am determined that we continue to build on this momentum in budget 2027. The Minister and I secured an additional \u20ac35 million for apprenticeships, bringing the total investment to \u20ac446 million, the highest level since the Department was established. This funding will progress the Government's target of 12,500 new apprentice registrations annually by 2030. Targeted supports are also in place to widen participation. For example, the access to apprenticeships initiative provides financial assistance, including a \u20ac3,000 bursary. That programme is in place for learners from disadvantaged backgrounds. We also have the Traveller apprenticeship incentivisation programme, which offers practical and financial support to improve access and retention among members of the Traveller community."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy John Connolly I thank the Minister of State. I might take that point up immediately. Bus \u00c9ireann, CI\u00c9 and the ESB came before the Joint Committee on Key Issues Affecting the Traveller Community today, all of which are participating in the Traveller apprenticeship incentivisation programme. The witnesses reported increased awareness and interest among members of the Travelling community in apprenticeships that their companies are offering. The numbers are still quite small. The ESB reported today that it had 11 members of the Travelling community apply for its apprenticeship programme in 2026 but unfortunately only one was successful. The programme is now on a firm footing. I understood it was a pilot programme, but it will deliver greater benefits into the future. I acknowledge increased funding is available for it. It would be welcome if that can be put on a firm footing and got past the point of it being a pilot."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Marian Harkin I am glad the Deputy raised this matter because I recently launched an analysis of the impact of the Traveller apprenticeship incentivisation programme. It has been very successful. He is quite right. The numbers are still small and we need to get to a critical mass whereby it is seen as a normal pathway into education and employment for members of the Traveller organisations. As the Deputy mentioned, it is a pilot programme, but it is intended that it would be delivered on a permanent basis from hereon in. It is important to point out that the bursaries offered in this specific programme are for both apprentices and their employers, because one of the issues we face is getting employers to take on apprentices. The programme has proven to be very successful, but it is always a challenge."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy John Connolly I welcome the commitment that we are going to make sure that this project becomes permanent into the future and we will fund it into the future. I compliment the Irish Traveller Movement, and particularly Bridget Kelly, who works in the Traveller apprenticeship incentivisation programme. As the Minister of State and I have both noted, the numbers are currently low, but after engaging with the ESB, CI\u00c9 and Bus \u00c9ireann, they all see the potential in it. I welcome that it will become a permanent fixture. We can develop and grow it further. At the higher education committee today, SOLAS and Quality and Qualifications Ireland, QQI, discussed with us the transfer of responsibility process that is ongoing from SOLAS to the institutes of higher education. I compliment both Ministers because they are funding that extensively. I believe that will lead to better apprenticeship programmes. I believe it will lead to better work in terms of the curriculum development and the assessment process, but also in terms of the logistics around apprenticeships."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Marian Harkin I share the sentiments that Deputy Connolly expressed about the Irish Traveller Movement and the hugely significant role it has played in promoting the Traveller apprenticeship incentivisation scheme. I have met Bridget Kelly and many others. The most recent report demonstrated the critical role that the Irish Traveller Movement was playing in encouraging Travellers, both male and female, to consider apprenticeships. It is the trust that the movement has built up between itself, Travellers and others that is really making the difference here. I could not speak highly enough about the work it has done. Regarding the transfer of responsibilities, that work is ongoing with SOLAS. It is important. There were certain issues identified. Now-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle I must interrupt the Minister of State and call the next question."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Apprenticeship Programmes"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_52","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Artificial Intelligence","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_48","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_48","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_52","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_52.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James Lawless This is an area I have a very strong interest in and I have given significant attention to because it is an area that is becoming more pertinent every day. The Department, Deputy Harkin, myself and the Government more widely are committed to ensuring that students have the skills that they need as artificial intelligence and other emerging technologies become more widely used across our economy and society. The Higher Education Authority is supporting this already through national guidance and targeted investment. It published a national policy framework on generative AI in December 2025, which sets out a common basis across higher education and a set of guidelines around things like AI literacy, academic integrity, transparency, inclusion, and the responsible use of AI. It includes, for example, a scenario such as more interrogation of students' answers by inviting a student to present on how they reached their conclusion rather than just putting out the answer, or by having an old-fashioned oral exam where a student is tested on their answers and knowledge in a more communicative way rather than just handing in an assignment and considering the job done. There are different ways we can test and assess in an AI world. I was struck by something when listening to, I believe, Professor Robin Cooke, who recently started in UCD heading up its new AI institute. I attended an event to launch the institute. I was listening to him speak on this. He said that the student knew that they might be able to send a robot to the gym but the student would not get any stronger or fitter, and that we had to give a little bit of trust to the students as well. They can try to game the process, but if they want to have skills for life when they come out of college, which is the entire reason they are going, they really need to engage with it. That is an interesting perspective. There are a number of other initiatives, including the strategic alignment of teaching and learning enhancement, SATLE, fund, through which \u20ac29.1 million is allocated. There are many other initiatives I will come back to in my next round."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy John Connolly The Minister has always been an advocate of the teaching of transferable skills. Disciplines should be broad and look to provide students with the skills that can place them into different workplaces where they can use those skills. AI is one of those skills now. We must make sure that across disciplines, all learning institutions, subjects and topics, we advise and make people aware of how to use AI. I am struck by the example that the Minister gave and the importance of the assessment of learning - not just the final outcome, but how we got to that point. It is important. It seems that, in a whole-of-government approach, but particularly in this Department, we are bearing in mind how important this is and trying to ensure that we equip students for its use into the future."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James Lawless We have multiple courses being rolled out already through Springboard+, Skillnet Ireland, SOLAS, AI Ready and many more, as well as the SATLE fund that I mentioned, which is specifically for higher education institutes. To make Members and anyone else who may be following the debate aware, there is a set of AI fluency courses for educators on a platform called opencourses.ie. That is currently offering courses to people in the education space to equip them with the knowledge and familiarity that they need. There is a new 25-hour course that will open in January 2027 to help staff design assessments that are effective and protect academic integrity in that AI environment. Members may wish to bring that to the attention through any correspondence they have on the issue. It is a useful course that educators may wish to avail of. I am also monitoring and encouraging developments within universities. I noticed recently that Technological University Dublin rolled out the artificial intelligence driving licence, which covers things like AI literacy, ethical usage and the critical evaluation of AI tools."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy John Connolly It is all very innovative. I have to compliment the Minister and the institutions on their innovation in this sphere. There are also the concerns around AI's use, and the Minister has noted those. We have to make sure that when people become proficient with its use, it is used for good reason and has positive outcomes. That is a crucial role of the third level sector. In fact, it is a crucial role of the entire education sector that students of today are advised that this is a tool we want to make the best use of and limit the opportunity for it to have a negative influence on society. There is a crucial role for schools and institutions in that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James Lawless I want to correct the record. The person from UCD I mentioned is Professor Robin Burke, not Robin Cooke. I have met him. He has come to us from Colorado and we are very lucky to have him in this jurisdiction. Deputy Connolly made a point at the outset about transversal skills and skills that are applicable in many scenarios. When I have been holding round-table events with industry, employers and training providers, I have been struck that one of the overarching themes that has emerged is the need for transversal skills for students, employees and, indeed, all of us to be able to communicate and collaborate and to analyse a piece of information. We have the world at our fingertips now on our phones and other devices. There is such a big knowledge base out there. but being able to critically assess that knowledge, to make an instinctive, intuitive reaction to it, and to process it with our own lens is a skill that goes well beyond the knowledge base and is something that we need to acquire as humans, and that is evermore prevalent in the age of digitalisation."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question No. 170 taken with Written Answers."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Artificial Intelligence"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_53","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Research and Development","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_48","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_48","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_53","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_53.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James Lawless There is significant investment going into those areas at the moment. We have \u20ac2.5 billion committed in the national development plan towards the whole space of research and innovation, much of which is being farmed out through Research Ireland. Significant parts of it are through the universities themselves through the likes of the INSPIRE programme, and the Tyndall National Institute is very much a beneficiary of that. I will come back to Tyndall in a moment, but I want to mention the Rinn centres. Deputy Connolly is a better Gaeilgeoir than I am, but \"Rinn\" is the word for headland, point or even star; a place of future ambition and a journey's destination. The Rinn centres are now live and they include almost \u20ac500 million of funding for things like AI, quantum computers, semiconductors, medical devices, green energy and other areas. That is a very significant commitment in the research landscape in the areas that Deputy Connolly has asked about. Tyndall National Institute is underpinned by more than \u20ac100 million in Government funding that I secured at the Cabinet at the start of this year to commence the expansion of its operations in Cork. I have visited the institute on a number of occasions and we brought the European Commissioners there when they visited at the start of the summer. It is part of the European Chips Act output, involving the development of technology that is critical for Europe for all sorts of geopolitical reasons. Tyndall National Institute is now playing a part as a key strategic European site for semiconductor technologies. That work is under way, the contract has already started and completion is scheduled for quarter 4 of 2028. It is a very significant research endeavour that builds on the good work already done by the institute. Earlier in the year, I launched the Quantum 2030 implementation plan and I have a quantum committee up and running involving various providers. The Irish Centre for High-End Computing, ICHEC, is based in the University of Galway, which is in the Deputy's neck of the woods. He and I visited it to see the new supercomputing capacity."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy John Connolly I was going to mention that. I found the Minister's knowledge of this whole area fascinating the day we visited the supercomputer project at the University of Galway. I think it was very reassuring for the academics at the meeting that he had an awareness of such issues. I compliment him on that. I have a few questions specifically on Tyndall National Institute. Will the Minister provide an update on the current status and timeline for expansion? I think he mentioned 2028. I understand the Government funding that has been allocated to date is \u20ac100 million in total. Has some of that already been expended? What is the level of investment currently being directed towards semiconductor research, artificial intelligence, high-performance computing and quantum technologies? How will the expanded Tyndall campus strengthen Ireland's semiconductor and deep-tech research capabilities? What research, employment and economic benefits does the Minister see arising from its expansion?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James Lawless I mentioned the quantum strategy and ICHEC. We are also now part of the AI antenna system. Working with other EU countries, we are gaining access to leading-edge AI hardware and software through European initiatives like the AI antenna and the AI gigafactory. In terms of Tyndall National Institute specifically, the plan is for the construction of a new 17,500 sq. m facility, which will probably double the institute's existing footprint in Cork. It is a start-of-the-art facility, which I have visited a number of times, and it is world-renowned to the extent that the world's leading universities, American, European and further afield, often ask the institute to assist with problem-solving and to take on challenges they have been unable to manage themselves. It really is a key part of our ambition to be a global beacon for semiconductor talent and technology. The talent is a vital part of that. The Deputy also asked about the economic benefits. The provision and availability of such talent will supercharge our economic activity as well."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy John Connolly That is reassuring to hear. It is an ambitious plan and to have it described as something that will supercharge our economic activity in this area is very welcome. Does the Minister have any sense of the numbers employed at Tyndall National Institute and the number of students there, and how those numbers might grow as part of the expansion?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James Lawless The headcount will increase by 30% to 772 researchers. That will include 20 principal scientists joining the team, 40 new senior researchers and 200-plus PhD and master's students, who will, in turn, provide semiconductor technology training to 500-plus trainees. The institute is also expected to have at least ten new spin-outs, 30 companies in residence and more than 30 Irish companies involved as part of the scale-up and start-up funding. It really is serving its purpose as a catalyst for semiconductor quantum technologies in Ireland and Europe. The Commissioners were extremely impressed when they visited it. That was our intention - to highlight the institute as a flagship of European technology excellence, very much focusing on the economic dividend from it as well."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question No. 173 taken with Written Answers."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Research and Development"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_54","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Third Level Fees","counts":{"speechCount":16,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_48","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_48","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_54","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_54.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Matt Carthy I am asking this question on behalf of Deputy Bennett. It is a very simple question. What third level fees will be payable in 2027 and what were they in each year since 2024?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James Lawless Under the free fees initiative, the State provides funding toward the tuition fee costs of eligible Irish and EU undergraduate students pursuing approved full-time undergraduate courses in an approved higher education institution. The State also pays the student contribution fee in full or in part, on top of the free tuition fees, on behalf of students who qualify for SUSI support under the student grant scheme. This year, 71,000 students received fee grant supports from SUSI and almost 49,000 students had their student contribution fee paid in full by SUSI as well. The programme for Government commits to reducing the student contribution fee in a financially sustainable manner over the lifetime of the Government. That commitment is intended to give further assistance to students and their families in successive years. Since coming into office last year, I have already reduced the fee by \u20ac650 on a permanent basis. Previous interventions were temporary and were not factored into the base in terms of being guaranteed year on year. Many students and parents have told me they needed certainty in order to be able to plan ahead and to understand what they would be paying each year. My changes are here to stay, are fully sustainable and are fully baked into the budget year on year. The Deputy asked what the fees were in previous years. In 2024-25, the fee was \u20ac3,000, as will be shown in any analysis or budget figures that were prepared. There was a temporary once-off intervention by way of a \u20ac1,000 discount on that net fee for qualifying students. The student contribution fee for the 2025-26 year was \u20ac2,500 because I was able to reduce it by \u20ac500 on a permanent basis. In the current year, I have managed to reduce it again by a further \u20ac150, taking it to \u20ac2,350. That change is complemented by changes to the tuition fee tax relief scheme. I have met with the Minister for Finance and he has committed to keeping the tax relief in line with the fee level in order that students get the maximum benefit from the measure."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Matt Carthy We have just heard the perfect example of political evasion at its absolute finest. My question was very simple but the Minister could not answer it. I asked him what the fees will be next year and what they were in previous years. He started off by talking about the free fees initiative. He should not try to cod students and their families. For many families, there is no free fees initiative. Every single year, they have to pay fees. They are disguised as student contributions but let there be no mistake about it: in a household budget, they amount to fees. In 2027, the fees - or contribution, if the Minister wishes to call them that - will be \u20ac2,350. The Minister seemed unable to say this but in 2024, the fees were \u20ac2,000. For all his guff and spin, fees will be higher next year than they were in the year of the general election. When will the election commitment made by his party and by Fine Gael to abolish student fees entirely actually happen?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James Lawless With respect to the Deputy, he is a fair man for the guff himself. He gives it out in large order in this Chamber on a regular basis. That is fine. It is part of the cut and thrust of political debate. However, my party made no such commitment as referred to by him. If he finds evidence that we did, he should bring it to my attention because I have never seen it, I certainly never made such a commitment and my party did not include it in our manifesto. There was no such commitment and, indeed, it will not be found in the programme for Government either because it is not there. The Deputy dismissed the free fees initiative out of hand. Nearly \u20ac1 billion is spent on free fees every year. He may be confusing that initiative with other initiatives. Tuition fees are not paid by students in this State. They are paid by the State on behalf of students to the higher education institutions. The cost for a medical student to attend college is approximately \u20ac30,000 to \u20ac40,000 and can be as high as \u20ac50,000 depending on the course. That is paid on the student's behalf by the State, and rightly so because it means there is an opportunity for students from lower-income backgrounds to avail of that education. That is available to students regardless of background because the free fees initiative is universal. On top of that, and as a separate initiative, the student contribution fee is also funded. At this stage, the majority of students are getting some or complete intervention with their fees. Only households earning above \u20ac150,000 where there is-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle The Minister's time is up."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James Lawless I will come back to that. Significant supports have been made available."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Matt Carthy What I ask the Minister to come back to is the simple question I asked him. We are all liable to guff from time to time, of course, but some of us are better than others at answering straight questions. It seems the Minister is simply not able to answer this particular question. He can call these charges contributions, fees or whatever he wants but the truth is that for families with students attending third level, especially where several students are attending, and who do not qualify for any of the supports the Minister outlined, this is a significant outlay. When we add the cost of student accommodation on top, it can be a very heavy burden. The parties in government promised in 2024 that student fees, which were \u20ac2,000 at that time, would be abolished over the lifetime of the Government. Instead, three years into the Government's term, fees will actually be higher in 2027. Will the Minister answer a straight question? Is it his intention to abolish student fees in the lifetime of the Government, and if so, when exactly will that happen? I ask, please, that he answer this straight question in a straight manner. Does he intend to abolish student fees, and if so, when will he do it?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James Lawless The Deputy has now changed his tune. He said a few minutes ago that my party had committed to doing that. Now he has acknowledged that is not the case. He has not quite clarified that but he has changed his charge somewhat in the course of the debate. I want to be really clear on the action for which he is advocating. He talked about families with more than one student at college and what supports they should enjoy. Thanks to the initiatives I introduced in the budget, families earning up to \u20ac150,000-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Matt Carthy I asked the Minister whether he would abolish fees. Is the answer \"Yes\" or \"No\"?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James Lawless The Deputy can talk in his own time."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Do not interrupt, Deputy Carthy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Matt Carthy This is supposed to be questions and answers, a Cheann Comhairle."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Do not interrupt, Deputy, please."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James Lawless Families with a household income of up to \u20ac150,000 will now enjoy a significant intervention in their fee costs through measures I have introduced in the budget. For example, a family with a household income of \u20ac149,000, which is well above the median wage, and with three students in college at the same time, will now enjoy an intervention of up to \u20ac2,000 against the cost of fees for those three students. As we come down the income ladder, there will be even more significant interventions such that many families will not pay any fees at all and many others will pay only partial charges. We have put in place significant interventions. The Deputy is looking for the very highest income students to receive support at the cost of other students in terms of things like SUSI grants."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle The time is up, Minister."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James Lawless It is important to be clear on what is being sought and to have an honest debate."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Questions Nos. 175 to 192, inclusive, taken with Written Answers."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Third Level Fees"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_55","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"International Students","counts":{"speechCount":11,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_48","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_48","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_55","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_55.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Matt Carthy The Ceann Comhairle has indicated that the Minister of State, Deputy Harkin, will take this question. Perhaps she will actually answer it and the Minister might learn how to do so."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle In fact, it is the Minister who will take this question."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Matt Carthy I am stuck with the evader. This is a very simple question. Has the Minister sought or received reports or analysis on the numbers of international students attending high-demand courses in Irish universities, and if so, will he outline the findings of such reports or analysis?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James Lawless We had this debate last July but we will repeat it anyway. My Department has not commissioned specific reports examining the number of international students enrolled across Irish universities. However, we engage with them on these matters on a regular basis. I have sought similar information because I want to know the figures and scenarios that present. In addition, the Higher Education Authority, HEA, collects and publishes enrolment data on international students and broad fields of study across the publicly funded higher education system, and that data is available at www.hea.ie . The most recent HEA data shows there were approximately 32,940 non-EEA students enrolled in publicly funded higher education institutions in the 2024-25 academic year, representing about 12% of the overall student population. While data is available by broad field of study, separate statistics on international student enrolment in individual high-demand programmes are not routinely published. It is very much the norm internationally, and is, in fact, a positive contributing factor to university rankings, that there should be diversity in student populations. An entirely homogeneous student population is not considered to be positive or healthy. When we look at the rankings, two of the Irish universities are back in the top 100 and we aspire for many more to join them. The proportion of non-EEA students making up the student body, at 12%, is not a particularly large number and does not make us an outlier in any way. In fact, we would probably find the corresponding number to be much higher in the world's leading universities. It is important to recognise that international students make a significant contribution to our higher education sector and to the wider economy. They enhance diversity on campus, bring new ideas, talent and skills, and strengthen our global academic and research connections, which is absolutely vital. I attended the Bologna Follow-Up Group conference in Croke Park this morning, at which representatives of 47 countries talked about how to compare notes and collaborate on higher education. We discussed Ireland's ratification of the UNESCO Global Convention on the Recognition of Qualifications concerning Higher Education. These are good organisations to be part of because knowledge does not recognise any borders."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Matt Carthy The Minister knows that I agree with most of the points he made. I agree that international students are an important part of the fabric of our universities. I have never heard any rational person suggest that our universities should not be diverse and should not include students from abroad. As he said, the overall figure of 12% is in line with international norms. The difficulty is that we do not have the information as to whether that 12% is concentrated in individual courses. While 12% across the HEA population is absolutely reasonable, if it is the case that the percentage of international students is much higher on individual high-demand courses - 40% plus, for example - that would be a cause for concern. I hope the Minister would agree, particularly if those courses are for specialist roles in respect of which the State is dealing with a shortage of personnel, especially in the medical field. Can we obtain that type of information, and if not, why not?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James Lawless When we discussed this issue previously, we looked at the specific figures. They showed it was not the case that international students were outnumbering Irish students, or anything like it, on those high-demand courses. I do not have the figures to hand but, as I said, the HEA website provides some additional information, if the Deputy is interested. More broadly, it is critical that we ensure there is a sufficient number of places to cater for demand, primarily domestic demand and also, of course, demand across the EU in line with our reciprocal arrangements with other member states. That is why I have concentrated on increasing the number of places available on high-demand courses in the likes of medicine and nursing. There are now 100 nursing students attending Maynooth University, where the school of nursing did not exist a year ago. It is a brand-new school, the creation of which I supported. We have a new pharmacy course at the University of Galway and new courses at the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland, RCSI, including a dentistry course to complement the courses at Trinity College and UCC. We have new courses in veterinary medicine at the Atlantic Technological University, ATU, based in Donegal and Galway. South East Technological University, SETU, is providing veterinary courses for the first time at Waterford and Kilkenny."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Matt Carthy That is all very well but the Minister did not answer my question. Why is there a reluctance to provide course-by-course information? My concern arises from the fact I have constituents, as I am sure does he, who have done incredibly well in their leaving certificate examination and want to do courses like medicine, veterinary science and dentistry. They are subjects in which we need more qualified people because there are shortages of personnel in many parts of the country. Some of those students, who may have missed out on the points requirement by only one, two or five points, are doing a course that is not their first choice or they are travelling abroad to complete their desired course. Does the Minister not think they are entitled to know whether the university they want to attend is selling off a large number of places on those courses, beyond the international norm, to high-income international students? It is a fair question and it is fair that this type of information should be publicly available."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle The Deputy's time is up. The Taoiseach to respond. I apologise; the Minister to respond. He was almost the Taoiseach there."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James Lawless I thank the Ceann Comhairle for her vote of confidence. It might have been the case a couple of years ago that students were missing out on high-points courses because of an insufficient supply but it is not the case any more. Looking at the most recent CAO offers, not a single student missed out on his or her course of choice on random selection at maximum points. All students who received maximum points gained entry to their course of choice."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Matt Carthy I did not ask about students with maximum points."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Lawless.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James Lawless I understand there was one scenario where students applying for dentistry in Trinity College maxed out but, fortunately, RCSI had added capacity to the system, supported by my Department and me, which meant those students could walk around the corner of St. Stephen's Green and take the course there instead. Not a single student in the State who wanted to study dentistry was prevented from doing so by random selection. In the case of pharmacy courses, the points actually fell this year because we now have, for the first time ever, five different institutions offering a pharmacy degree. Supply has moderated pressure on points and we are beginning to see the effect of that. In regard to international students, if a university wants to offer additional places beyond those supported by the State, it is welcome to do so. The State provides for the places that are made available to Irish and EU students. That is a very important principle. No student missed out this year, which was because of the extra places coming on stream."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Is f\u00e9idir teacht ar Cheisteanna Scr\u00edofa ar www.oireachtas.ie."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Written Answers are published on the Oireachtas website."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"International Students"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_56","debateType":"debate","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/13","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/13\/dail\/2","houseCode":"dail","stage":"2","isBillStage":true,"showAs":"Harassment, Harmful Communications and Related Offences (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 2026: Second Stage [Private Members] (D\u00e1il)"}},"showAs":"Harassment, Harmful Communications and Related Offences (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 2026: Second Stage [Private Members]","counts":{"speechCount":12,"speakerCount":8},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_56","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ciar\u00e1n Ahern","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"M\u00e1ire Devine","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/M\u00e1ire-Devine.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"M\u00e1ire-Devine.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marie Sherlock","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle The Government has indicated it is not opposing the Second Reading of the Bill. I invite Deputy Kelly to move the motion."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Kelly I move: \"That the Bill be now read a Second Time.\" I will be joined by some colleagues who will take some time as well."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Is that agreed? Agreed."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Kelly I produced this updated Bill in light of what we all know happened - and transpired over nine months ago - in relation to Grok images and the harmful content that was coming up online. My colleague, former Deputy Brendan Howlin, drafted Coco's Law and it was brought forward by the Government at the time. This Bill is an update on it to make provisions that we in the Labour Party feel are desperately needed. What is going on in social media companies, what has happened, and the manner in which they deal with such content is unacceptable. It still remains unacceptable on many platforms. Besides, we need to future-proof for other platforms. From day to day, we do not know what platforms are going to be available. I thank the Minister for notifying me beforehand that the Government is going to support the passing of this legislation. That is very much appreciated. This issue needs to be dealt with. The manner in which Grok was being used to undress people and the way that was being utilised were totally unacceptable. Through this legislation we are updating the Act to ensure that not just physical images, which were part of Coco's Law, but also AI-generated images, are covered by the legislation. Six years ago we did not see that far ahead. The Bill also deals with companies that facilitate the sharing, distribution and manufacturing of such images. One thing we are all going to have to deal with is that the world has changed. The pendulum as regards who has the capacity to deal with this has to move. At this moment in time, regulation of online e-commerce companies is done much in the way of self-regulation, and that is unacceptable. The pendulum has to move, whereby the laws of our land are updated to ensure that these companies meet our legislative and legal requirements and regulatory rules, rather than engaging in self-regulation and using their own form of managing their content. If they cannot do that or refuse to do it, then in that scenario we simply have to make sure they have to do it or they will be penalised. There is no point in having massive fines for these companies because they build them into their baseline. Fines can be in addition to what I propose in this Bill, which is very simple. If they continuously break this law, if they ensure that content is being distributed that is harmful and if they do not meet the regulations that will be set down as a consequence, then the executives of those companies can be held criminally liable in this State. I believe we have to go down this route. If anyone in this Chamber produced a product or service that was harming people and it could be proven to be harming people, he or she would, rightly, be prosecuted. That is why we have the CE mark across Europe. Unfortunately, I do not think we in this country can wait for European regulation because I do not believe it is going to happen quickly enough. We in this State have a responsibility to legislate for this issue. That is what we are endeavouring to do in this Bill. Where such companies behave in the manner outlined, I believe they have to be held criminally liable. We also have to ensure there is a step-change for these companies, so that they know that the idea that they can have community guidelines, standards or codes of conduct will simply not be enough any more. Instead, they will have to meet the requirements of this legislation, and do so quickly. We need to reverse the pendulum and protect our citizens. We need to ensure that these companies come into line. As Chair of the Oireachtas media committee, I heard a huge amount of evidence from various people about the harm that is being caused to young people and, in fairness, to adults due to the harmful content that is being put up online. We heard from so many young people and adults across the country who have been harmed in a serious way because these platforms get away with putting up, distributing and allowing content that is totally unacceptable, and allowing totally unacceptable tools and software to be used. Everyone here knows Gr\u00e1inne Seoige, who very much went public in relation to what happened her. In fact, it is her birthday today so I wish her a happy birthday. She has come out very publicly in relation to this. It is incredible the feedback people have been giving about how they really want the D\u00e1il to deal with this issue. We cannot wait for a number of years. It would be great if Europe dealt with this but we cannot wait for Europe. I sincerely believe and accept the honest intentions of the Minister, Deputy O'Donovan, on this issue. I believe he is on the same page as me and others but he is probably coming at it slightly differently. I do not mind whether it is my legislation, the Government's legislation or a mixed bag of a whole pile of us coming together to deal with this issue, but we have to deal with it. I encourage everybody in here to do so. Before I hand over to my colleagues and split the remaining time, I want to say a little bit about the Bill. Section 1 has definitions. Section 2 safeguards against retrospective application of the amendments in the Bill to the 2020 Act. Section 3 amends the definition of \"intimate image\" to deal with AI issues. Section 4 inserts a new section 2A, headed \"Generation of intimate images by computer-graphics\" into the Act to provide that \"A person who ... generates an intimate image of another person without the other person\u2019s consent, for the purpose of distributing or publishing the image ... is guilty of an offence.\" This section also deals with ensuring that companies can be held criminally liable. I ask the House to support this legislation. I ask everybody to support it and to allow it to go through the Oireachtas and be the inspiration for change and to ensure that, once and for all, we take on these companies and enact proper legislation and regulation to provide that images, whether AI-generated or not, cannot be produced, manufactured \u2013 computer-generated or real \u2013 and sent across these mediums any more. If harmful content like this, or any other form of harmful content, is being distributed on these platforms, it will not just be about fines but the executives in these companies will be held criminally liable in this State."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy George Lawlor I am pleased to say it was my predecessor in Wexford and the Ceann Comhairle's former colleague, Brendan Howlin, who, in 2020, introduced the Harassment, Harmful Communications and Related Offences Bill, known as Coco's Law after the late Nicole \"Coco\" Fox, whom we fondly remember. It is imperative on us, as parliamentarians in this House, to continue the battle against the evil that pertains, in particular to protect people, principally young girls and women, from the new and disturbing form of abuse that is the technology that allows deepfakes and AI-generated intimate images to happen. They cause so much harm. The humiliation, anxiety, reputational damage and emotional trauma caused by these interfaces and this technology are not something that those of us who have not suffered that indignity can speak about. Deepfake technology has created a dangerous gap in the law, which is what the Bill is about. I am glad to hear the Government is not opposing the Bill. It is common sense that it would not oppose it because it is incumbent upon us, as parliamentarians in this Chamber, to ensure the protection of all of our citizens. This new technology creates a vacuum for those with evil in their hearts and minds and allows those who want to make sport at the expense of others to create these deepfakes. As I have said, women and girls are disproportionately targeted by image-based abuse. As the father of three daughters, I would be absolutely distraught if any of my children were subject to these deepfake images or the crazy minds of the people who see this as some sort of sport or game. It is incumbent upon us in this House to ensure we do all that is within our power. It is not often that we come to this Chamber to get involved with legislation that can make as profound a difference to people's lives as this will. We are charged with introducing this legislation and it is incumbent upon us to do so. The internet should not be allowed to be a law-free zone. We have seen this over and over again. We saw it with Grok AI, which is still available on Twitter. I do not know whether it still engages in the nefarious activity it was engaged in, much to the amusement of certain actors who owned the platform and were making profits from it. How available that was is indicative of why we must act with great urgency on this. Technology is changing apace. Legislation, particularly this legislation, must match that because too many people's lives are being affected in an extremely negative way. The freedom of expression does not include the freedom to sexually exploit, humiliate or intimidate any other person."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ciar\u00e1n Ahern","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ciar\u00e1n Ahern I commend Deputy Kelly on bringing forward this important legislation. I will talk about the broader internet culture we have seen emerge over the past number of years, which has, in many ways, normalised the sort of behaviour we are talking about today, or at least emboldened the people who engage in it. The Grok AI scandal is inseparable from the growth of the influence of these so-called manosphere characters, particularly on young men, in online spaces. There was a time when this sort of misogyny, homophobia, racism and general bigotry was consigned to fringe websites in the darkest corners of the internet. It is now very much to the fore now, however. It is being hosted on some of the biggest platforms, such as X and Tik Tok. The impact of that accessibility and the normalisation of some of these sorts of views, which algorithms are purposely pushing on young men in particular, is frightening. Nudification tools are an incarnation of the philosophy that the manosphere and those associated with it push, which is that the bodies of women and girls are there to be commodified and objectified by men. We have to reject that. We have to hold the platforms that host these tools and disseminate this philosophy liable for the damage that it causes. We also have to address the elephant in the room, which is the increasing prevalence of violent pornography and children's exposure to it. There are real world impacts to this. Last year, the former Garda Commissioner said that extreme pornography was radicalising young men and that it was normalising sexual violence against women. This type of content is readily available on the internet with virtually no barriers. It is often pushed on young men through algorithms. Earlier this year, I attended a briefing from CyberSafeKids that covered research by the Sexual Exploitation Research and Policy Institute, SERP. It really brought home to me the impact that exposure to extreme and violent pornography is having on young men and on children's perception of what is normal and acceptable in sexual behaviour. Teenage boys have told SERP researchers that it is expected of them that they would slap and choke women in sexual encounters, that they would chase them, be aggressive and have anal sex, and that they would be with as many women as possible. This goes way beyond young boys being influenced into wanting certain things from sex. They are being told that they should expect these things, demand them and take them. Conversely, young girls told researchers that it is expected of them to be submissive, to do what the man says or what he likes, to be kinky, to be choked or slapped and to make pleasure noises. I could go on. These sorts of attitudes among young people are a product of the internet culture that has been allowed to fester and become normalised for far too long, aided and abetted by the world's largest tech companies, most of which have their European headquarters in Ireland. The only way we are going to get to the heart of addressing this issue is if the companies are brought into line. They have to be held accountable for disseminating harmful content. Deputy Kelly's Bill will help us to do that. I commend the work of the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre and Women's Aid in particular in highlighting digital sexual abuse as a major and growing problem. I am proud to be a member of the Oireachtas all-party group on sexual violence as we work towards finding legal, regulatory and educational solutions to the scourge of deepfakes, cyberflashing and abusive pornographic content and their direct links to physical sexual violence against women. I look forward to continuing to work with Deputy Kelly and with my colleagues across the House to eradicate these harmful issues."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration (Deputy Colm Brophy) I thank Deputy Kelly for bringing forward this important and significant Bill. I will also take the opportunity to recognise the work of the former Deputy, Brendan Howlin, in this area. This Private Member's Bill seeks to amend the Harassment, Harmful Communications and Related Offences Act 2020 and is one of a number of similar Bills before these Houses. Before I turn to the legislation, I will acknowledge the context in which it arises. Deputies will recall the controversy at the beginning of this year when an editing feature powered by Grok AI was used at scale to create harmful and illegal content, particularly through the nudification of people. I will be very clear that producing non-consensual intimate images is a reprehensible act that violates a person's sense of bodily autonomy. Evidence also suggests that non-consensual intimate imagery disproportionately targets women and children, reinforcing existing patterns of sexual harassment and gender-based abuse. I am pleased that, on Tuesday, the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, secured the agreement of the Government not to oppose this Private Member's Bill on the basis that its aims align with the Government's commitment to a zero-tolerance approach to domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. The Minister, myself and the Government as a whole share the widespread revulsion expressed in this House at the non-consensual nudification of images, primarily of women and children. As has been set out, the Bill seeks to amend the Harassment, Harmful Communications and Related Offences Act by extending its provisions to encompass images generated or modified by computer graphics. In this context, the Bill amends the definition of \"intimate image\" provided for in the Act. It also creates new offences: generating an intimate image by computer graphics without consent for the purpose of publication or distribution, and causing the generation of such an image. The Bill also contains a rebuttal presumption in respect of the generation of intimate images via social media software such that such images shall be presumed to be generated for the purpose of publication. The Attorney General's office has advised that the definition of \"intimate image\" in the 2020 Act is sufficiently broad to capture images created or altered by AI tools, rendering an amendment in this regard unnecessary. It appears that the legislation specifically targets the creation of AI-generated intimate images made with the use of tools available on a social media service. The Attorney General's office has observed that criminal offence provisions containing rebuttal presumptions require very careful consideration and may give rise to constitutional issues. They must not unduly encroach on the presumption of innocence or any other aspect of the right to trial in due course of law guaranteed by Article 38 of the Constitution. The burden must not operate to permit the conviction of the accused owing to the failure of the accused to positively prove that some essential element of an offence was absent. At this juncture, it is important to outline our existing statutory measures in respect of intimate image abuse. The Harassment, Harmful Communications and Related Offences Act creates a serious offence of distribution or publication of an intimate image without consent with the intent to cause harm to the victim. This offence attracts a maximum penalty of up to seven years' imprisonment. It is also an offence to threaten to distribute or publish such an image. The Act also provides for a strict liability offence with a lower penalty for engaging in the recording, distribution or publication of an intimate image without consent with no requirement to prove an intention to cause harm. The definition of \"intimate image\" under the Act is intentionally broad to include any visual representation of a person. Therefore, it will include an AI-generated image of a person. This will also cover intimate images that have been altered or doctored prior to their distribution or publication, what is more commonly referred to as a deepfake. I reiterate that the Attorney General has confirmed that this is indeed the case. The Child Trafficking and Pornography Act 1998 is also important in this context. It is framed so that no distinction can be made between AI-generated material and other sexual abuse material. It is a criminal offence to generate a sexual image of a child, whether or not Al tools are used to do so. This encompasses images showing a child, whether an actual child or one created by Al, engaging in sexually explicit activity or showing their genitals or anal region for a sexual purpose. The production and distribution of child sexual abuse material attracts a sentence of up to 14 years' imprisonment. I would also like to draw the House\u2019s attention to recent developments at EU level. The European Commission\u2019s digital simplification omnibus package includes targeted amendments to the Artificial Intelligence Act. The law bans Al systems that generate child sexual abuse material or create images, videos and audio depicting an identifiable person\u2019s intimate parts, or sexually explicit activities, without their consent. Providers will not be allowed to place these systems on the EU market, unless they come with adequate technical safeguards to prevent the creation of such material. The prohibition also applies to employers using them for this purpose. Ireland, alongside fellow member states, was a strong and determined advocate for the introduction of this new prohibited Al practice. The Regulation of Al Act 2026 is domestic legislation which has recently been enacted. It gives legal effect to national implementation measures, establishing a regulatory framework to meet our national obligations under the Al Act. This includes the designation and empowerment of national competent authorities to regulate prohibited Al practices. In tandem with this, preparations are ongoing in my Department for the transposition of directive EU 2024\/1385 on combating violence against women, which will come into force in June 2027. This landmark legislation will strengthen protections for victims, including in relation to technology-facilitated forms of abuse, and support a more consistent approach to preventing and combating violence against women and domestic violence across the European Union. Of particular relevance to today\u2019s debate, the directive includes a provision to criminalise the production of a deepfake intimate image and the subsequent distribution of the deepfake intimate image in question. I would like to assure Deputies that work is under way in respect of legislative reforms to ensure the full and complete transposition of the directive in this regard. I would also like to take this opportunity to highlight the further work being done in my Department and across Government to tackle the scourge of domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. This is being co-ordinated by Cuan, which is overseeing implementation of the Government\u2019s Zero Tolerance strategy, in this, its final year. That commitment is being matched by sustained investment. Reflecting our unwavering commitment to zero tolerance of domestic, sexual and gender-based violence in society, we have secured increased funding of \u20ac5.3 million in last month\u2019s budget. This brings the total allocation to an unprecedented \u20ac84 million to support Cuan and services working to combat domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. This is in addition to funding provided by Departments and agencies directly to deliver actions and initiatives under the Zero Tolerance strategy. As Members know, Cuan is responsible for monitoring and tracking of implementation of the Zero Tolerance: Third National Strategy on Domestic, Sexual and Gender-Based Violence 2022-2026. Cuan has developed a bespoke monitoring tool which ensures increased efficiency and transparency to implementation. We have seen expansion of emergency accommodation capacity and strengthening of the pipeline for further refuge and safe-home expansion. Recent progress reports highlight continued significant progress. While protecting victims is essential, lasting change also depends on prevention, education and shaping safer cultures across society. Reform of the social, personal and health education, SPHE, curriculum is empowering students to have the skills and confidence to nurture healthy relationships. Cuan continues to lead the Consent Ed project which is a sexual violence prevention resource for young people that complements the SPHE curriculum. A total of 1,258 educators have been trained, with over 457 schools and organisations directly engaged in the project. There has also been expansion of services for children and young people experiencing domestic or sexual violence, with \u20ac17 million in funding distributed to 60 services supporting children. Protecting children and young people from harm, both online and offline, remains a central priority. Over the past months, we have continued to advance a range of legislative measures designed to strengthen protections for victims and survivors and support a more effective justice system. In July, Valerie\u2019s Law and Jennie\u2019s Law were enacted, enhancing protections for children affected by serious family violence and increasing transparency in relation to domestic violence convictions. Reforms to the disclosure of counselling notes and other sensitive records will better protect victims\u2019 privacy while safeguarding the interests of justice. The introduction of new offences targeting the exploitative practice of sex for rent further demonstrates our commitment to protecting vulnerable people from coercion and abuse. Taken together, these reforms represent significant progress in strengthening protections for victims and survivors. Work is also continuing on legislation that will strengthen the law on consent in sexual offences, including how belief in consent is assessed in rape and sexual assault cases. We have also taken steps to criminalise extreme pornographic material. Such material can distort perceptions of intimate relationships, interfere with healthy sexual development and reinforce misogynistic attitudes that our society has worked long and hard to discard. For this reason, in July, the Minister, Deputy O\u2019Callaghan, secured Government approval to introduce new offences criminalising the production, distribution and possession of extreme and violent pornography, reflecting growing concern about its harmful impact, particularly on young people. In closing, I commend Deputy Kelly and all the speakers in the House so far today for the determination we share to eradicate domestic, sexual and gender-based violence, which is a blight on our society. I want to reiterate the Government\u2019s zero-tolerance approach to this unacceptable behaviour. This is a challenge that requires sustained commitment across Government and society, and one to which we remain fully committed."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"M\u00e1ire Devine","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/M\u00e1ire-Devine.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"M\u00e1ire-Devine.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy M\u00e1ire Devine I thank Deputy Kelly and Labour for bringing this Bill to Second Stage today. As the D\u00e1il will recall, we in Sinn F\u00e9in brought our own amendment to Coco's Law to Second Stage in February on International Safer Internet Day, so this is a subject we all care about deeply. As the Sinn F\u00e9in spokesperson on violence against women and girls, I note that we have so much to fix, and this is one very important measure, an addition to Coco's Law. I want to also acknowledge being a member of the all-party group on sexual violence along with Deputy Ahern. What we hear there is extremely disturbing, and I hear a lot. I have been a psychiatric nurse for most of my life. I have heard extreme things but we come away quite stunned by what we hear in the all-party group. I do not want to use the word \"damaged\" but when we hear what is going on worldwide and in our own local communities and in our own nation it is very disturbing. We have so much work to do to catch up, and we seem to catch up all the time. The Bill I sponsored last February successfully passed to Committee Stage, where it awaits further scrutiny by the justice committee of which my colleague, Deputy Carthy, is Chair. Our Bill differs somewhat from Labour's Bill, and a third version is coming through the Seanad, sponsored by an Seanad\u00f3ir Eileen Flynn. Everybody knows this is crucial. Sinn F\u00e9in welcomes and will support Deputy Kelly's Bill. It is important that different perspectives on how to solve the problem of AI nudification deepfakes are carefully scrutinised in order to construct the most comprehensive legislation possible. Many of my fellow Deputies will have an posted photos of their kids or grandkids on social media platforms like Facebook, Instagram or the horrific X. What many people do not realise, though, is that nudification apps such as the trillionaire's Elon Musk's Grok can be used to create sexualised images from these normal photos and are often sold on the dark web as child sex abuse material. When a child's image is used in this way, that child is not only victimised but can be traumatised for life. UNICEF shared a report earlier this year stating that at least 1.2 million children across 11 countries have had their images turned into sexually explicit deepfakes in the past year alone. In some countries, that is about one in every 25 children, roughly one child in every classroom. Nudification apps are also used to terrorise women. Women experience the internet differently from men, from cyberbullying and harassment to co-ordinated attacks meant to silence women. The digital world can be especially harsh for us, particularly for those who speak, advocate or simply express opinions online. Here on our island, women standing for recent elections were bullied with sexualised AI deepfakes designed to damage their reputations and self-esteem. The perpetrators took control over the representations of the victim's identities. Deepfakes, though untrue, still communicate something about a person's body, behaviour or character. They still shape how others see them. Part of the dark motivation is exertion of power over a woman to shame her, to subjugate her and to silence her. One MLA said that all the messages she had received in the wake of being deepfaked during a 2022 Assembly election \"were just really vitriolic\". She said, \"Those messages were from people who hate women.\" She added, \"I\u2019d like to think I have a right for my life not to be ruined.\" The core issue is the violation of privacy and dignity of women and children by creating sexualised depictions of people who cannot and did not consent. The sheer volume shows that this was not an isolated misuse by a few Grok users. An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na confirmed in the spring of this year that it was investigating 200 reports of illegal images from Grok. Presumably, these all affect or involve Irish people. When technology enables non-consensual harm, the burden should not fall on victims to fight back alone. Stronger safeguards, clearer laws and responsible AI design are not optional. Rather, they are urgent needs to preserve social cohesion. The rise of misogyny and sexual assaults is deeply concerning. The warping of minds, especially our young, is abhorrent. We as leaders must be vigilant, firm and proactive in protecting parenting and educating our young people. The technology giants' only concern is profit - we know that - and their moral compasses are absent. Ultimately, these mega corporations must be held to account. The three Bills progressing through the D\u00e1il and Seanad must be further examined on Committee Stage to ensure that we pass the most robust legislation - again, we seem to be catching up - that can stand up to the task at hand and to the task going forward. I wish to remember Nicole \"Coco\" Fox and her mam's fight to get this law initially into the legislation after her tragic death from harassment and cyberbullying in 2018."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Gary Gannon I thank Deputy Kelly for introducing this legislation. We are very glad in the Social Democrats to support it for a variety of reasons. I will begin by thinking about the women and others who are most likely to be impacted by these gross injustices and gross actions that are being facilitated by the tech companies. We can think about the woman whose photograph has been taken and manipulated, for example, a woman who innocently puts a photograph of herself on social media for her friends and family and discovers that somebody - some creep - has used it to manufacture a sexual image, or a young girl who finds that an image bearing her face is being passed around her school or classroom. These are all the realities. The Garda is investigating over 200 images by Grok as we speak. It is also by X and companies owned by Elon Musk and others, but we know it is the most prominent. Imagine having to walk to work or into school wondering who has seen it, wondering if your family has seen it or your classmates, or wondering if your teachers know or if you might get called out by a principal. That is debilitating in a way that I cannot even imagine. That image may be fake, but the violation is absolutely real, and the responsibility lies equally with the creepy man who has generated that image and the company that has given the tools that enable him to do it. Think about that reality. The Minister of State referenced in his speech the context in which this Bill and the other two Bills currently in the system were brought forward. It is quite literally because tech companies - one particular one - have allowed a tool by which an image of a woman or child can be generated into a sexual-based image that is used to undermine, push that woman down or embarrass her because someone does not like the powerful words she is probably saying. The Garda is investigating. Irony of ironies, we had a scenario a couple of weeks ago where despite the fact that 200 images generated by Grok were being investigated by the Garda, our own Minister for justice took to X - that same company - to admonish the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre for a campaign that he felt was not approved by the Government. That is a sick, dystopian reality. Whatever differences we may have on policy, legislation and the allocation on budgets, that particular difference is personal because that was a vile act. That company should never be used by anybody within any of our Departments, but a justice Minister using it to admonish the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre is a step too far. The Minister and the wider Government need to reflect upon that because it overstepped beyond belief. We need legislation by which we can take on these tech companies. Deputy Kelly's legislation brings us that opportunity. There is no reason to sit on it in the same way that we have with Deputy Devine's legislation. We need to act with urgency. We need to act quicker because this technology is evolving far faster than the legislative process within this House. We owe tech companies nothing to extent that they can allow tools by which sexual images of women and young girls are being used as a means of destroying their lives, but that is the reality that we have had in the past year. Can we imagine what that technology will look like next year? Can we imagine what that technology will look in six months' time? We are heading very quickly into a very dystopian world in which these creeps on X or other platforms can quite literally take a picture of a woman or young girl and turn it into a sexual abuse image. I understand that there may be legislation that we have already have, but it is getting out of date very quickly. These companies need to feel the full force of the law. They headquarter themselves here for a very specific reason - they benefit from our taxes - but that does not give them any justification or restrain us from going after any creep who enables a tool of this nature to be used against women or young girls in this country. That should not even be something that we have to sit on. We should have been arresting people who provided those tools and arresting those who manipulated the images. There is no space for argument here. The Departments that are still using that platform need to reflect upon what that says about us. I thought that the Minister of State's words were quite strong in the beginning and understanding the context in which it was made. He can understand the perverse reflection of that when our own Minister for justice uses that same platform to admonish the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre and Cuan."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marie Sherlock","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Marie Sherlock I thank my colleague, Deputy Kelly, for introducing this important Bill. I am struck because there was so much shock, horror and disgust at the start of this year when we saw what Grok was capable of online and the appalling commodification and exploitation of women and young girls in particular. There was such a sense in January that action would be taken. There was a lot of fighting talk, particularly from the Minister of State, Deputy Smyth, at the time and there were expressions of revulsion, yet we are into the 11th month of the year and we have seen no progress. We hear in the response of the Minister of State, Deputy Brophy, today that the offence we believe needs to be put on the Statute Book is already covered under the 2020 Act. To be frank, that is not good enough. The public feels very strongly that our legislation is not strong enough in this space. Deputy Kelly spoke about the huge work that our former colleague, Brendan Howlin, did to introduce Coco's Law. The important thing is that we need to be regulating for things that we cannot even begin to imagine will happen online in terms of the tools that are going to be developed. That might seem a bit counterintuitive in some ways, but that is the nature of the AI world that we are now inhabiting. Unfortunately, the Government has been behind the curve in this space and in recognising the power of AI and what it can unleash online. When we look back to January this year, the Grok experience revealed and exposed just how powerless nation states are, or have allowed themselves to be, particularly here in Ireland. To a certain extent, the AI horse has bolted and we are gasping to catch up, but it is not too late. I was struck when I asked the Minister, Deputy McEntee, about the EU digital omnibus package a number of weeks ago. She talked about the progress that it was going to be making regarding the regulation of AI. However, that package is undermining some of the existing AI protections that are in place by watering down some of the \"red tape\" as some people like to call it but what we here on the left would call very necessary protections. We need to hear a very clear message from the Government as to how it is going to regulate the major technological platforms, many of which are headquartered and have their Europe, Middle East and Africa, EMEA, headquarters here in Ireland and are part of massive projects developing artificial intelligence. I am struck by the world we live in now. We live in times when the world is literally changing around us and we do not know where we are going to end up. However, to borrow from Gramsci, the old is dying and the new has not yet been born. That is the attitude we need to apply to our legislation. Our legislation cannot foresee the types of products that are going to be developed but it can at the very least set down basic thresholds for decency, safety and child protection in the online space. That is the very clear ask in this Bill that Deputy Kelly has introduced. It is also important to say that there is a broader issue regarding the impact of AI on our society. Thankfully, there has been a growing awareness and recognition over the past year of the power of AI and its very positive potential, particularly in the health space, but also of the catastrophic impact it could have and is perhaps having on our democracy, on our security and on consumers. The reality is that because so many of the EU's digital imports come from the US, we are beholden to a very small number of very big actors. Power is concentrated in the hands of a very small number of people and there has not been political willingness to stand up and say what protections we need for our citizens or our people. This Bill obviously speaks very specifically to the issues of protecting people online, particularly women, but also men, of course. However, there is the wider issue here that we need to get our act together, both here in Ireland and, with the Presidency, at EU level, to show leadership in how we regulate AI and to stop being on the back foot the whole time. We need to get ahead of what may be to come by setting down very basic thresholds of decency, safety and security so that whatever technology is developed, Ireland will be ready. The big thing is that we are in a position where technology can be turned off on a whim because of where it is owned, and that leaves us very vulnerable. We saw what happened with the supermarkets during the week, but there is also the critical issue of how this technology is deployed to do harm in society. I urge the Minister to support this Bill and to crack on with the work Deputy Kelly has been doing, because we need this legislation in place. However, we need a lot more legislation and we need true leadership from the Government, such that it is no longer just about the fighting talk but actually about walking the walk and making sure we have real legislative protections in place for people across this country."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration (Deputy Colm Brophy) I have been listening to the many thoughtful contributions made today. I want to begin by reiterating that the Government as a whole, including the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, and me, are absolutely committed to tackling the scourge of domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. It is disappointing that some of the contributions would almost imply that we are not. Sometimes I find that difficult to take from this side of the House because we are absolutely committed. We are not opposing the Bill. As a former Minister for whom I have tremendous respect, Deputy Kelly fully understands the importance of the Attorney General's advice or the advice that goes to the Government. I believe nobody sits in this place who has an issue with what we are trying to do here. It was regrettable, unfortunately, for a Deputy to have a cheap shot at a Minister for what went up in a post, in the context of what I believe should be a totally united front in our contributions and our work. It is in this context that Ireland pressed at EU level for amendments to the European Union's AI Act to prohibit the despicable practice of generating non-consensual intimate images and child sexual abuse material. At domestic level, the Government is in the process of ensuring the full transposition of the violence against women directive, including the criminalisation of producing and distributing deepfake imagery. This complements our comprehensive domestic legislation on intimate image abuse material and child sexual abuse material. The development of the upcoming fourth national strategy will build on the foundations established through the zero tolerance strategy. It will consolidate the progress achieved through partnership across government, agencies, service providers, advocacy organisations and communities. Prevention and early intervention to address the root causes of domestic, sexual and gender-based violence will be key priorities of that strategy. As we look forward to the fourth national strategy, we must continue to challenge the attitudes, the myths and the misogyny that underpin the violence, while also ensuring that our response remains evidence-based and, I hope, united. Every person deserves to live free from violence. Every person deserves to live free from fear. Every person deserves to live free from abuse. That ambition, I believe, must continue to guide every single person, in government and opposition, Deputies and Senators, right across the Oireachtas."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Kelly I thank everybody for making their contributions. As the Deputies outlined, a number of parties and individuals, including my colleague, have also introduced legislation, and I want to commend them all. I am not particularly concerned about whether we address the matter through my legislation or combined legislation. I do not believe any of us are in that space. However, my real concern is the urgency. We need to deal with this in an urgent way. I am a parent of two teenagers. I see what is going on. We cannot sustain this. We need to deal with these companies. We need to make them criminally liable. That is my big issue. Fines are a waste of bloody time, an absolute waste of time. The companies' share prices go up. The bigger the fine, the bigger the increase in the share price, because it means that their algorithms are working. Ultimately, I would love to see what I propose done at EU level. Unfortunately, I just do not believe it is going to happen. I have been reading a lot about it. I have dealt with it through our committee, obviously, and I cannot see it happening as quickly as is required. We have a duty to lead. We have all these companies in our country, not far from here actually, but we cannot sustain allowing dangerous activity online to continue, in this area in particular but also in others. What is happening is not sustainable for us because it creates other issues downstream across society. Those issues are going to multiply as generations move on and other generations come through. We are also seeing an increase in the number of different platforms, not just the ones we all know about \u2013 such as TikTok, which is the platform of choice for many young people \u2013 but also newer platforms that many of us have not even heard of or, in my case, do not understand. I am hearing about different ones every month. We need to future-proof in this regard. Ultimately, we need to address the definitions of what should be illegal, of images, of videos and of content. We also need to address the whole ethos of these online platforms, these e-commerce companies. They are e-commerce companies and they make zillions. It is all about money and it is all about the algorithm. The algorithm is their intellectual property. We have to deal with continuous scrolling. On the whole issue of algorithm sign-up, it should not be a matter of opting in. Algorithms should actually be banned. There can be other ways of ensuring you get the content you want through these systems. I accept that once the definitions and rules are in place, nothing will be perfect and there will have to be proportionality. However, if the regulations that would give effect to these changes we bring in through legislation continue to be completely and utterly ignored and if harm continues to be caused, those responsible need to be put in jail. It is as simple as that. If I produced a health product that harmed people, I would end up in jail. If I produced a service and it harmed people, I would end up in jail. If you are producing something online and it is harming people consistently, you should end up in jail. That is the reality. That is where we all need to go. It is the only way we will ever get to clean this up. I am sorry; I am not in favour of the whole issue of bans for under-16s, under-15s, under-18s or whatever, because simply speaking, from a technology point of view, I just do not think they work. There are also counter issues with that whereby people, particularly young people, need to express themselves on certain issues. I accept the bona fides of people who believe in that. I understand why they believe in it. We are just coming at it from a different angle saying the same thing. If we did everything that I just outlined there as part of my legislation, as well as others, we would go a lot further in dealing with this issue and would be leaders in Europe. We would be very quickly seen as leaders in Europe and should be brave enough to take this on because somebody has to. We have the scale, the capacity and the legislative prowess to go and do it and ensure that it is done. Others would take it on afterwards as they see how it works for us. Ultimately, if we legislate like this in our country, it means that if any of these executives do not adhere to our laws and regulations and are going to be prosecuted, and if they land in a plane anywhere in the EU, they can be prosecuted in this jurisdiction. That is the way we need to think about it because, ultimately, our first duty in this Chamber is to uphold the Constitution and legislate for our people and protect them. That is what we need to do and we need to do it with urgency. I thank Members for their contributions. I also thank the Government and Minister of State, Deputy Brophy, in particular, for taking this Bill today and ensuring its passage through the Houses."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an D\u00e1il ar athl\u00f3 ar 5.22 p.m. go dt\u00ed 1 p.m., D\u00e9 M\u00e1irt, an 10 Samhain 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The D\u00e1il adjourned at 5.22 p.m. until 1 p.m. on Tuesday, 10 November 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Harassment, Harmful Communications and Related Offences (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 2026: Second Stage [Private Members]"}]}}]},"contextDate":"2026-11-05"},{"debateRecord":{"house":{"showAs":"Joint Committee on Public Petitions and the Ombudsmen","committeeCode":"joint_committee_on_public_petitions_and_the_ombudsmen","houseCode":"dail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/committee\/dail\/34\/joint_committee_on_public_petitions_and_the_ombudsmen","chamberType":"committee","houseNo":"34"},"chamber":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/def\/committee","showAs":"Joint Committee on Public Petitions and the Ombudsmen"},"lastUpdated":"2026-11-11T17:40:29+00:00","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/joint_committee_on_public_petitions_and_the_ombudsmen\/2026-11-05\/debate\/main","formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/joint_committee_on_public_petitions_and_the_ombudsmen\/2026-11-05\/debate\/mul@\/main.xml"},"pdf":null},"date":"2026-11-05","counts":{"contributorCount":4,"divisionCount":0,"debateSectionCount":2,"questionCount":0,"billCount":0},"debateType":"debate","debateSections":[{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/joint_committee_on_public_petitions_and_the_ombudsmen\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_2","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Gn\u00f3 an Chomhchoiste \u2013 Business of Joint Committee","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Chuaigh an comhchoiste isteach i seisi\u00fan pr\u00edobh\u00e1ideach ar 12.37 p.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds i seisi\u00fan poibl\u00ed ar 12.54 p.m."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The joint committee went into private session at 12.37 p.m. and resumed in public session at 12.54 p.m."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Gn\u00f3 an Chomhchoiste \u2013 Business of Joint Committee"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/joint_committee_on_public_petitions_and_the_ombudsmen\/2026-11-05\/debate\/dbsect_3","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Decisions on Public Petitions Received","counts":{"speechCount":24,"speakerCount":4},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Maxwell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aubrey McCarthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pat Buckley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pat-Buckley.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Pat-Buckley.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Good afternoon. I have to read some formal notices concerning privilege. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the place in which Parliament has chosen to sit, namely Leinster House, in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. I propose that petitions considered by the committee at this meeting and previous meetings will be published and that replies from Departments and other bodies will also be published. Is that agreed? Agreed. We have six petitions for consideration this afternoon. Petition No. P00043\/26 is entitled \"Make Irish language education available to those with intellectual disabilities at a separate level\". It has been submitted by members of Comhairle na n\u00d3g. Do committee members have any views on this petition?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Maxwell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy David Maxwell I think we should go with the petition. As I said in private session, I come from a constituency whose population has one of the highest numbers of Irish speakers. I am not a Gaeilgeoir myself, but it is one of the biggest Irish-speaking populations outside the Gaeltacht. We opened three Gaelscoileanna in the last month. Any person who wants to learn the language should be given that chance, and if they have an intellectual disability, they should be given even more of a chance if that is what they want to do. I support the petition."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aubrey McCarthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Aubrey McCarthy I agree with my colleague. There is a new appetite for the Irish language. If we can do anything to support that, we should. The petitioners have asked to appear before us twice. The Department refused. On what basis did the Department refuse? Is it worth asking the Department whether it had already been rejected? We should hear the petitioners."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach It is not clear to me either why it was refused. There may be a very good reason. If there is, we will hear it, but I propose that we write to the Department and establish its views so that we have that in advance. Should we need to hear from the Department, we can invite it in, but the first people we will hear from will be the petitioners from Comhairle na n\u00d3g. I also propose that at this meeting we issue an informal invitation, not for a joint meeting but for an informal invitation to the members of the disability matters committee and the Gaeltacht affairs committee. It is important that we have people who are passionate about the Irish language and that they would have an opportunity to have an input. I am delighted that members are in agreement. This is a good one for us to pursue. We can get some answers for Comhairle na n\u00d3g with regard to the rationale for saying \"No\". I do not think it is fair to just say \"No\". It seems to be a reasoned proposal that a lot of effort and energy has gone into. The proposal is that we will proceed to hear this petition and send on the response from the Department of education to the petitioner, but that we will also follow up with the Department, as Senator McCarthy has asked, and look for a reason for the refusal. Is that agreed? Agreed. Petition No. P00050\/26, in the name of Ms Emily Fitzgerald, is entitled \"Optional Protocol to the Convention against Torture (OPCAT) for compliance with the United Nations\". Ms Fitzgerald, a young journalist, has uncovered the fact that Ireland is not signed up to the Optional Protocol to the Convention Against Torture, something which, understandably, caused her some concern. She has written to us. We have a response from the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission and the Department of justice. They both indicate that this matter is in hand. Neither of them is saying it will not happen. However, as was pointed out in private session, there is not much by way of a timeline. We have two responses. We will forward those to the petitioner and see whether it is satisfactory. It will be up to the petitioner to come back to us and let us know. It is noted that while the responses we received are not hostile to this idea and nobody appears to be saying \"No\", nobody is saying \"Yes\" with a timeline. That is important."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pat Buckley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pat-Buckley.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Pat-Buckley.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pat Buckley Any time I see the words \"Optional Protocol\", I get very worried that something has not been passed. We are all well aware of the optional protocol within the disability services. They still have not ratified that. The Department's response is very wishy-washy. It says it will ratify it, but how long is a piece of string? It would be proper to find out, if the Department is going to do it, whether it has set a timeframe for it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Yes. We should allow the petitioner a chance to consider the response and on the basis of that, we can follow up."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aubrey McCarthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Aubrey McCarthy I understand that the petitioner, Emily Fitzgerald, is worried about the delay. This convention was signed in 2007, but Ireland has not ratified it yet. The inspection of places of detention Bill has to come first, before the protocol is ratified, yet no date has been given. I think that is where it can become messy. How many years will that take? A timeline is definitely needed."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Absolutely. I agree a hundred per cent. This is a substantial amount of time. We are coming up to the 20th anniversary of the signing of the convention, which is next year. It is not in order to say you will do something, particularly something as important as this, and then not to follow up and not to offer any reason, or indeed a timeline. I take the Senator's point. Let us be guided by the petitioner. We will see the petitioner's response to the response from both Departments and then we will make our decision based on that. Is that agreed? Agreed. Petition No. P00051\/26 is entitled \"Reduce PSA Licence Renewal Fees for Security Workers in Ireland\". It is submitted by Mr. Halim Abdullah. We have a response from the Department of justice and we have correspondence there. The proposal is that we would send this on. The response talks about the overall budget, etc. The petition is made on behalf of security workers, who we know to be low-paid workers. We know that, for them, having to register might be financially burdensome. I assume we want people to be registered, regulated and so on. My proposal is that we will see what the petitioner says about the response from the Department of justice and we will make our decision based on the petitioner's views. Is that agreed?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aubrey McCarthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Aubrey McCarthy May I just ask one question?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Yes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aubrey McCarthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Aubrey McCarthy Can the committee write to the PSA and ask it what the current fee schedule is, whether it has been reviewed, when it was last reviewed and whether a reduction has ever been considered?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Yes, absolutely, we can do that. Then we will have that, hopefully, for our next meeting and we will have a chance to consider that. There is merit in the petition. Obviously, we want registration to be accessible, and if there is a reason it is not, we-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aubrey McCarthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Aubrey McCarthy It is a standard of excellence for the industry, but at the same time the rates have to be looked at."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Yes, it is a standard of excellence but it is also a workplace expense that people have to go through. They do not get any money for it; it comes out of their wages, which, we have already established, are very modest. Out of those wages, they pay that registration fee. Your idea, Senator, is a good one. We will do that and then see what the response is. Petition No. P00052\/26 is entitled \"Review of the Medicines Products Regulations and Retail Barriers to address Significant Cost Disparities and the Loss of Consumer Revenue to the United Kingdom\". It is submitted by Mr. Manoj Panda. We have a response from the Health Products Regulatory Authority, HPRA. It will be up to the petitioner to make a decision on that response. We will not get into the politics of it but, obviously, this is an issue because of partition. We know that. We will wait to see what the response of the petitioner is to the HPRA. Do members have any views? Are we agreed? Agreed. Petition No. P00063\/26 is entitled \"Establish a National Community Confidence Index\". This is something the petitioner advises is done in other jurisdictions and the proposal is that it be established here. We have a response from the Department of Rural and Community Development and the Gaeltacht, which advises us that the best organisation to deal with this is the Central Statistics Office, CSO. We also have a response from the CSO. It outlines what the CSO is doing, which is not massively unlike what the petitioner is looking for but perhaps not in that format. To be fair to the CSO, it does outline in detail what it is doing that would fit into the remit of a consumer confidence index. We will see what the CSO, rather than the Department of Rural and Community Development and the Gaeltacht, says. I think the petitioner's response to the correspondence from the CSO will determine how we proceed. With the agreement of the committee, that is how we will proceed. Is that agreed? Agreed. Petition No. P00068\/26, in the name of Mr. Jeremiah Murphy, is entitled \"Amend Article 8 of the Constitution\". Mr. Murphy has made this submission and the petition has been sent to the Department of An Taoiseach and to the Department of Rural and Community Development and the Gaeltacht. On the basis of the responses we have received from both those agencies, I do not believe, as Chairperson, that we will be able to proceed with this. The responses we have received are comprehensive and they will be forwarded to the petitioner, but my proposal is that we close this petition. Do members agree with that?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Maxwell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy David Maxwell As I said of the first petition, I am not a Gaeilgeoir, but I fully support that we close this petition because we would be opening a question. The petitioner has listed a number of dialects. We could end up with an argument as to whether Munster Irish is better than Donegal Irish or Scots Irish, and there we go. It is in the Constitution, it is a constitutional question and I would not be supportive of it being progressed."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach And the response from the Department of the Taoiseach is quite comprehensive."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aubrey McCarthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Aubrey McCarthy I agree with my colleague Deputy Maxwell. However, one aspect that was not addressed in the answer was what the petitioner said about Article 8 about the Irish and English texts and how they differ. Closure is absolutely reasonable, but it is important to point out that that was not addressed."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach That is noted. We can consider, if we wish, following up but if we are closing the petition, there may not be any further value on that basis in following up . I take your point, though, Senator. On that basis, my proposal is, with the agreement of the committee, that we will close that petition. That is agreed. That concludes our consideration of public petitions this afternoon. I invite members of the public to submit petitions via our online portal, which is available at petitions.oireachtas.ie . A petition may be addressed to the Houses of the Oireachtas on a matter of general public concern or interest or an issue of public policy. Do members have any issues they wish to raise under AOB?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pat Buckley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pat-Buckley.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Pat-Buckley.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pat Buckley Again, I just thank all the committee staff because they make our lives a lot easier."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach They really do."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pat Buckley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pat-Buckley.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Pat-Buckley.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pat Buckley I can imagine the headaches they go through. I would just like to have that noted."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach We are very lucky to have, I would hazard to say, the best secretariat in the D\u00e1il - and the best members."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pat Buckley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pat-Buckley.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Pat-Buckley.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pat Buckley Of course."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach That goes without saying. There being no further business, the committee is adjourned until Tuesday, 10 November, when we will meet in private and public session."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an comhchoiste ar athl\u00f3 ar 1.07 p.m. go dt\u00ed 11 a.m., D\u00e9 M\u00e1irt, an 10 Samhain 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The joint committee adjourned at 1.07 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 10 November 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Decisions on Public Petitions Received"}]}}]},"contextDate":"2026-11-05"},{"debateRecord":{"house":{"showAs":"34th D\u00e1il","committeeCode":"","houseCode":"dail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/house\/dail\/34","chamberType":"house","houseNo":"34"},"chamber":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/def\/house\/dail","showAs":"D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann"},"lastUpdated":"2026-11-07T03:11:11+00:00","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-04\/debate\/main","formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-04\/debate\/mul@\/main.xml"},"pdf":null},"date":"2026-11-04","counts":{"contributorCount":163,"divisionCount":5,"debateSectionCount":20,"questionCount":0,"billCount":5},"debateType":"debate","debateSections":[{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_2","debateType":"topical","bill":null,"showAs":"\u00c1bhair Shaincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Matters","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aindrias Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aindrias Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Aindrias Moynihan) I wish to advise the House of the following matters in respect of which notice has been given under Standing Order 39 and the name of the Member in each case: Deputy Roderic O'Gorman - To discuss capacity issues and the proposed timeline for a school extension project. Deputy Joe Cooney - To discuss the postponement of the new localised weather warning system. Deputy Michael Cahill - To discuss funding for the N70 Ring of Kerry road. Deputy Erin McGreehan - To discuss the need to legislate for tokenisation of the funds industry. Deputy Albert Dolan - To discuss the publication of the revised wind energy development guidelines. Deputy Fionnt\u00e1n \u00d3 S\u00failleabh\u00e1in - To discuss Bunclody AFC and the fallout of Clearwater going into liquidation. Deputy Michael Murphy - To discuss the need to strengthen Uisce \u00c9ireann's accountability to D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann. Deputy Conor D. McGuinness - To discuss water services infrastructure investment and supply disruption i gContae Phort L\u00e1irge. Deputy Pa Daly - To discuss physiotherapy services in Kerry. Deputy Thomas Gould - To discuss deficits in local authority funding and resulting increases to social housing rents. Deputy Robert O'Donoghue - To discuss a school project in Rush, County Dublin. Deputy Ryan O'Meara - To discuss financial supports for community caf\u00e9s. Deputy Cathy Bennett - To discuss efforts to secure a public sector pay deal. Deputy Matt Carthy - To discuss the necessary steps for Monaghan County Council to secure funding for a swimming pool in Carrickmacross. Deputy Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire - To discuss the domiciliary in and out, DOMINO, scheme at Cork University Maternity Hospital, CUMH. Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa - To discuss the difficulties experienced by people whose boilers have broken. The matters raised by Deputies Roderic O'Gorman, Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire, Joe Cooney, Albert Dolan and Matt Carthy have been selected for discussion"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"\u00c1bhair Shaincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Matters"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_3","debateType":"topical","bill":null,"showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":false,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_4","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Schools Building Projects","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_4","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Roderic O'Gorman I appreciate the Minister being here in person to take this important Topical Issue. Castleknock Community College, CCC, as it is known locally, is a secondary school in my Dublin West constituency located in Carpenterstown. It is a very large secondary school. It currently has 1,335 students. The reason this school is so big is a number of years ago, there was major pressure on secondary school places in the Carpenterstown-Castleknock school planning area. CCC shares this school planning area with two other secondary schools, Luttrellstown Community College and Edmund Rice College. To address the school places crisis at that stage, the school management team in CCC and the board of management agreed to a long-term increase in the overall number in the school, going up to eight classes per year with 240 students per year. That was a big step to take but meeting the needs of the local community has always been central to CCC's ethos. In order to facilitate this extension to have the physical space for these extra students, there was an agreement. The school would immediately start to take the additional eighth class. Some temporary accommodation would be provided in the short term but a permanent new-build extension to the school would also be provided. This would include seven mainstream classrooms, one music room, one design and computer graphics room, one home economics room, one graphics room, two engineering-construction studies rooms, two special education classrooms and two special education tuition rooms. It was a big investment in the school but it was absolutely necessary to meet the needs of the extra students the school had committed to take each year. Now, years after that agreement, this vital extension is still only at stage one, preliminary design, of the Department's process. That is what the Minister told me in response to a parliamentary question in late July. This lack of progress has become a real issue because the school is currently looking to issue offers for incoming first-year students in September 2027. Due to the constraints of the physical size of the school building right now, and because the outgoing year group only had seven streams of 210 students, the school only has room to offer 210 places for September next year. The starting point is down 30 places from the 240 students it had been able to offer places for in recent years. The school has received 590 applications for September 2027. This year, there are more students with siblings which means they fall into the first category, which is category A. Category B, where the majority of applications come from - students who go to a feeder school and live within the catchment area - are not guaranteed to receive a place. Parents and students in that category will receive letters saying they did not get a place and are on what could be a very lengthy waiting list. What is frustrating is the school took on those extra students and that extra class in good faith. This could all have been avoided if that extension had been progressed at place. Will the new build for CCC be prioritised? The school fulfilled its part of the bargain; it has taken on the additional students. Now, the Department has to step up and fulfil its side of that bargain. What is the timeline for delivery of the new build? Is the Department aware of the real pressure this school is under for places in September 2027? Is it looking at any contingency measures to ensure students can get a place in a local secondary school?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister for Education and Youth (Deputy Hildegarde Naughton) I dt\u00fas b\u00e1ire, gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an Teachta as an gceist seo a ard\u00fa mar tugann s\u00e9 deis dom achoimre a thabhairt don D\u00e1il ar an seasamh reatha maidir leis an bplean t\u00f3g\u00e1la scoile do Chol\u00e1iste Pobail Chaisle\u00e1n Cnucha. This project was approved under the Department's additional school accommodation scheme and has been devolved to the Dublin and D\u00fan Laoghaire Education and Training Board for delivery. The project will provide seven additional mainstream classrooms, six specialist classrooms, a two-classroom special educational needs base, two special education teaching rooms and ancillary accommodation. The project is currently at stage 1, preliminary design. The stage 1 report has been submitted to the Department and is under review from a technical and cost perspective. As with all school building projects, progression to the next stage is subject to the completion of the necessary technical, scope, design and cost assessments, as well as overall programme priorities and available funding. All school building projects, as they progress through the pipeline, must undergo the necessary due diligence outlined in the infrastructure guidelines and capital works management framework. The timing of a project moving from one stage to the next requires careful planning and takes account of factors, such as compliance with all scope, design and cost requirements, timing of affordability and the prioritisation necessary for the school building programme to remain within agreed annual funding allocations. The Department keeps post-primary school provision in the Castleknock and Carpenterstown school planning area under ongoing review, taking account of demographic trends, enrolment patterns and available school capacity. Current projections indicate that the population of first-year students resident in the Castleknock and Carpenterstown school planning areas will remain relatively stable over the coming years, and that sufficient capacity for first-year exists within the school planning area to meet projected demand. While Castleknock Community College has reduced the number of first-year places advertised for the 2027-28 school year, this is not expected to impact on the availability of school places for students resident within the Castleknock and Carpenterstown school planning areas. Analysis of enrolment patterns indicates that the majority of students attending Castleknock Community College reside within these areas, with a proportion also travelling from neighbouring school planning areas. Any reduction in intake at Castleknock Community College may increase demand for places in other schools, including Luttrellstown Community College. However, sufficient capacity remains available within the wider area to accommodate projected enrolments. In addition, further post-primary capacity is planned at Castleknock Community College to cater for future population growth arising from the planned residential development, particularly within the Kellystown area of Carpenterstown. The Department will continue to monitor demographic trends and school place requirements to ensure that sufficient capacity is available to meet future demand."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Roderic O'Gorman Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an Aire. I will make a couple of points on that. I am not convinced that demand for secondary school places has plateaued as her Department is arguing, particularly when we look at the fifth and sixth classes that are outgoing at the moment. Even if it were stable, we have to remember 30 places have been taken off the pitch this year. There is a reduction in the number of places that Castleknock Community College has available to it next September. Thirty places is a big chunk out of it, considering the school was just able to provide offers to category A and category B students last year, and we now have more students in the sibling category A. Regarding additional post-primary capacity as planned in Castleknock, there is another school planned in the very long term. However, when the State cannot deliver an extension to an existing school, telling parents that there will be a new school built at some time on a greenfield site is not going to convince anybody and is certainly not going to address the challenge we are facing this coming September. When we are investing State money, we absolutely have to go through the due diligence and the technical process but agreements need to be met as well. Commitments need to be fulfilled. A commitment was made here. The school went out on a limb to deal with a major crisis that myself and other Deputies in Dublin 15 were dealing with a number of years ago. There was an agreement to support the school with this extra build. That extra build is still at stage 1. We all know how long these processes take within the Department and stage 1 is not a good place to be in. Will the Minister go back to her officials and ask them to drive forward this new-build project? There will be real pressure this year and in future years on secondary school places in the Carpenterstown area."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Hildegarde Naughton It is worth noting that four additional mainstream classrooms and two science laboratories were delivered to Castleknock Community College in 2023, pending the delivery of the larger additional school accommodation, ASA, project. I assure the Deputy that my Department will continue to progress the ASA project in line with the school building programme. Ba mhaith liom bu\u00edochas a ghabh\u00e1il ar\u00eds leis an Teachta as an deis a thabhairt dom an t-eolas is d\u00e9ana\u00ed a chur ar f\u00e1il don Teach maidir le tionscadal c\u00f3ir\u00edochta Chol\u00e1iste Pobail Chaisle\u00e1n Cnucha. My Department is committed to ensuring appropriate accommodation is available for all pupils and will, in the wider context outlined, ensure that each school project on the school building programme is subject to the due diligence required under the Government's infrastructure guidelines and capital works management framework. As outlined, current projections indicate that sufficient first-year places are available to meet local demand in the Castleknock and Carpenterstown area. The Department remains committed to forward planning for future growth. It is constantly monitoring demographics and pressures in relation to school planning areas and will continue to invest in school infrastructure to ensure that school place provision keeps apace with demographic change. Since 2020, the Department of Education and Youth has provided \u20ac2.1 billion in capital funding for Dublin schools. Over this period, a total of 316 schools have been upgraded, either through the provision of a new school building, large-scale extension or provision of modular accommodation. The accommodation needs at Castleknock Community College will be considered as part of the ongoing overall Department-led prioritisation process in consultation with the school patron and the school authorities."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Schools Building Projects"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_5","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Hospital Services","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_5","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire I acknowledge the presence of the Minister of State in the Department of Health and thank her for taking this Topical Issue. I also thank the Cathaoirleach for selecting it. I know the Minister of State will be familiar with it but just to put on record that the DOMINO scheme is community-based midwifery-led care. We do not always get the chance in these Houses to talk about services or initiatives that are win-win for the public and for the State but this is what DOMINO is. For the mother, the family and the baby, it provides an excellent level of care in the community. It ensures that low-risk pregnancies can be managed, stay in a low-risk environment and be supported to do so. It means, in some instances, that you could give birth in the hospital and within four or five hours be at home in your own bed. It is a terrific service but it is also in the interests of the State and the hospital if we can get things right. It ensures there is less pressure on hospital beds, that low-risk pregnancies do not escalate to high-risk pregnancies and it is very much in line with what is in the national maternal health strategy. Changes took place to the service on 12 October 2026. I state at the outset that it is not disputed that a service does continue and that DOMINO continues to be operational, but it is about the nature of changes to the service and restoring it to its full capacity. This was initiated as a pilot a bit over ten year ago. The objective at that stage was to see if it could be successful that it would potentially be expanded. That is what we should be looking at. First, we should be looking restoration but in the medium run seeing it expanded. That has not happened, even though the results speak for themselves. A number of years ago in its own publication, CUMH recognised that there are financial savings - not the primary consideration but it is worth noting - because of the early discharge and home care arrangements. I will outline some of the difficulties that exist or have existed. The telephone line was an issue. I understand this has been progressed to some extent but it is important that it remains monitored. There is also the capacity for home care. As I said, that is one of the biggest things that most appeals to mothers and families who are interested in accessing DOMINO care. At the moment, there is a question as to whether the early transfer home team has the staffing and capacity to provide the equivalent care, including at weekends. Access to antenatal education is a significant issue because people are trying to book the CUMH classes but have been told they are already full. There had been in the past, and there certainly is intended to be, dedicated DOMINO classes. We should ensure that is restored to full capacity and confirm whether the locations that had been in place for community antenatal appointments will be retained. We need to ensure there is adequate staffing to retain the full DOMINO model because it is the full suite of services that ensures this is attractive. I have spoken to some of the women who have experienced DOMINO and are campaigning on this issue. I acknowledge the work of the campaigners who have been highlighting this. They presented a petition to the Taoiseach on, I think, Monday. Their key point is that it needs to be the full suite of services. We should ensure not only that this is retained but that it is expanded into the future."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Mary Butler) I thank the Deputy for providing this important opportunity to discuss the DOMINO scheme. He has set out very well and very strongly how important it is for low-risk pregnancies and giving women the choice to make the decision as to how they would like to give birth. I am taking this matter on behalf of the Minister for Health, Jennifer Carroll MacNeill. The Department has been engaging regularly with the region, and I assure Deputy \u00d3 Laoghaire that the DOMINO scheme at Cork University Maternity Hospital is operational. It is fair to say he acknowledged that. This is a highly valued scheme available to existing participants and eligible new patients. As of the middle of October, 52 women are registered with the DOMINO scheme in CUMH, 38 of whom will give birth before the end of this year. In October, CUMH made some changes to staffing arrangements within the hospital due to a high level of maternity leave and staffing pressures. Some of the midwives from the DOMINO scheme have been deployed to support the labour ward. Patient safety remains the overriding priority for all arrangements. These changes do not represent a closure of the scheme but are a temporary solution to ensure the safety of women and babies in CUMH. Antenatal care continues through DOMINO and the hospital's outpatient midwifery services. Parentcraft education continues to provide antenatal classes. The HSE has further advised that the increased presence of DOMINO midwives within the birthing suite is likely to facilitate continuity of care for women in the scheme who present in labour at CUMH. Postnatal care will be provided through the early transfer home midwifery team. This includes support at home following discharge. CUMH continues to review the service and, following engagement with the DOMINO midwives, the dedicated 24-hour DOMINO telephone line was reinstated from 23 October, which was just over a week ago. CUMH was also among the sites involved in the original pilot of postnatal hubs, as the Deputy said, supporting the delivery of postnatal care closer to home for women and families in communities such as Ballincollig, Clonakilty, Mallow and Carrigtohill. I acknowledge the Deputy's concern about recruitment. While enhanced controls are currently in place, it is important to clarify that there is no blanket recruitment freeze. Recruitment to essential posts can continue, with decisions informed by clinical need, patient safety and patient benefit, and having regard to available funding. The DOMINO service remains operational and available to eligible women. HSE South West continues to review and prioritise staffing requirements to support the safe and effective delivery of maternity services. The staffing arrangements currently in place are temporary and it is intended that the redeployed staff will begin to return to the DOMINO service from the first quarter of 2027."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire At the very minimum, that timetable needs to be held to. There will be women out there wondering. We need to get that communication very clear. The first quarter of 2027 for procurement might be fine but for a pregnancy, when you have a very specific date, you want to know whether you will have the full suite of services at the time you are giving birth or the period before and after. We need clarity as to what exactly that means. I ask the Minister of State to try to work with the Minister for Health to announce a specific date for the full restoration of services. I hope not only that is what the Minister of State can commit to but also that it is communicated very clearly because that will inform the choices women and families make in terms of their births. The capacity for home care is crucial. I live in a part of the city that is quite near the hospital so I see the CUMH cars around at people's homes delivering those home visits and supporting women before and after they give birth. It is crucial that is fully resourced and reliable. The point has been made that CUMH is short about 80 positions in terms of vacant posts and so on. Ultimately, moving staff between services does not resolve the underlying shortage. If we can get this service right, it will reduce pressure on doctors and on hospital beds. As I said, it is a win-win. I ask the Minister of State to bring back some key points to the Department. As regards antenatal classes, I know she has said the parentcraft places are still in place, but there needs to be dedicated DOMINO classes. That needs to be key. She has said the telephone access is restored. That needs to be maintained. The home care is crucial. It needs to be fully resourced in order that people are in a position to return home. I refer also to community antenatal appointments and a specific date."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Butler I thank the Deputy for that. I will take on board everything he has said and it will be reflected back to the Minister, her team and the Department. There is evidence that investment in postnatal hubs in Cork and Tralee supporting care closer to the home, as well as the recently opened women's health hub in Tralee, do work. I agree with the Deputy that they absolutely do. The commitment to women's health services is reflected in Cork University Maternity Hospital. Since 2020, staffing across the region has increased by 27%. That includes 29 additional staff who were recruited this year. While births at CUMH have reduced by 7.8% since 2020, we remain committed to providing women with choice in their maternity care, including through the supported care pathway and the domino service. The HSE South West region is operating with additional recruitment controls, as I said. The region will continue to review and prioritise its staffing requirements. I take on board what the Deputy said about a timetable. As he said, quarter 1 is fine for procurement, but if you are somebody who is using the DOMINO scheme and you are nervous about what the situation is, timelines, communication and the helpline are really important. Operational decisions are taken by management from a safe staffing perspective and we cannot really question the decisions they make to make sure that it is a safe staffing process. At the same time, I will take on board everything the Deputy has said and the way he has presented it. As a woman who has had three children during her life, and there are lots of dads here as well, I understand that people need that certainty when they are about to give birth."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Hospital Services"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_6","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Meteorological Services","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_6","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Cooney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Cooney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Cooney.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Cooney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Cooney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Cooney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joe Cooney I raise the planned introduction by Met \u00c9ireann of a new weather warning system and a decision to delay its introduction. It was reported by RT\u00c9 last week that the new system, which was due to be in place by the end of this year, will now be delayed and is still going through consultation. I welcome the plans to improve the warning system but I am disappointed that it will not be ready as expected. The current system is based largely on county boundaries. This means an entire county can receive the same weather warning even when conditions are very different from one part of the county to another. Anyone familiar with my county, County Clare, will understand the problem. We have a long Atlantic coastline, areas of high ground and inland communities. The weather can be very different in west Clare compared to east Clare, even over a relatively short distance. Let me give the Minister of State an example. In the 24 hours between 4 p.m. on 23 October and 4 p.m. on 24 October this year, 51 mm of rain fell in Moyasta in west Clare, where ground conditions were already very wet. Compare that with Newmarket on Fergus on the other side of the county, where just 23 mm of rain fell during the same period. During this time, Cork, Kerry and Waterford were placed under status orange weather warnings while Clare was placed under a status yellow weather warning. Under Met \u00c9ireann's own guidelines, a status orange rainfall warning applies where 50 mm or more of rain is expected over 24 hours. That level was reached in west Clare. Meanwhile, the 30 mm required for a status yellow warning was not reached in Newmarket-on-Fergus. This shows exactly why the current system needs to be changed. The new system would allow Met \u00c9ireann to issue warnings for specific areas rather than entire counties. This is already done by the UK Met Office. I have three questions. Why has the new system been delayed? Why are so much further consultation and so many focus groups needed when the UK Met Office introduced this type of warning system in 2011? It has been in place in the UK, whose weather conditions are very similar to our own in Ireland, for 15 years. What more do we need to find out before we can move ahead? When will the new system actually be in place? Are we talking about a few months or will people have to wait another year or two? People depend on Met \u00c9ireann's warnings when deciding whether to travel, when protecting their homes and businesses, and when planning outdoor works. This is also particularly important for those in the farming community, who need to make decisions based on weather conditions."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Deputy Thomas Byrne) I thank Deputy Cooney for raising this Topical Issue, which I am taking on behalf of the Minister, Deputy James Browne. Met \u00c9ireann has strengthened its national weather warning service and the localised weather warning and display systems have been put in place. These developments have now entered the usability and understandability assessment phase. The introduction of a new warning system is not simply a technical exercise. It is essential that the information provided is easily understood by the public and supports informed decision-making during severe weather events. As part of this assessment, Met \u00c9ireann has also engaged with local authorities, Government Departments and emergency management agencies. The next most important stakeholder in this phase is the public. Met \u00c9ireann is undertaking independent research using focus groups to ensure the technical development for localised warnings achieves its objective of providing clearer information to the public and supporting informed decision-making during weather events. This approach aligns with international best practice and is what other national meteorological services have done with comparable localised weather warning systems. The research will take place over the coming months and any improvements identified will be incorporated into the final technical solution. As a matter of operational prudence, major changes to national weather warning systems are not introduced during the winter period, when the system may be required to support responses to significant weather events. Met \u00c9ireann is committed to ensuring that the enhanced warning system is robust, effective and readily understood by users. The new localised weather warning system will be in place by the start of the next storm season."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Cooney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Cooney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Cooney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joe Cooney I thank the Minister of State very much for his response. I want to make one thing clear; people do pay heed to Met \u00c9ireann. They listen to the warnings and use that information to make decisions about their daily lives. Having a proper weather warning system in place allows people to make informed decisions about travelling, making plans and carrying out outdoor work. The difference between receiving the wrong weather warning because of the county boundary system and receiving the correct warning for the conditions in your own area is significant. This is especially important during storms but it also applies in wintry weather. I will give another example from Clare. In November 2024, almost exactly two years ago, areas of higher ground in Clare recorded close to 1 ft of snow. A number of rural communities were left cut off and housebound for several days. However, in the lower, more populated parts of the county, the weather was completely different. They experienced rain rather than heavy snowfall. Despite these very different conditions, the entire county received the same weather warning. Surely, we can do better than that. We need to change the way we issue weather warnings. They need to reflect the conditions people are actually facing in their own areas rather than treating the entire county as one. I acknowledge the Minister of State's response but the fact remains that a working system already exists in the UK. This has been in place since 2011 and we can learn from that experience. We need to speed up this process rather than allowing it to drag on. This is ultimately about public safety. People need to know what weather conditions they can expect so that they can protect themselves, their families, their homes and their businesses. We have waited long enough for this change. I ask the Minister of State to make sure the work is completed and the new system put in place without further delay."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Byrne As I have said, Met \u00c9ireann is enhancing its weather warning system. It is bringing in a more localised weather warning system. This system will provide information at a sub-county level, enabling a more targeted and geographically precise approach. It will not just align to county boundaries. Localised warnings will be issued based on where anticipated impacts are expected to occur. The system is already being used in a pre-operational manner by Met \u00c9ireann's forecast office. As I have already said, the localised warning system is undergoing usability and understandability assessments. Work is on track for delivery in time for the next storm season. It is not considered best practice to introduce a major change to a national weather warning system during the winter period due to the risk that confusion may occur in relation to this important source of public safety information. It is vital that this move to a localised weather warning system achieves its purpose of providing clearer and more geographically relevant information and direction to the public and emergency management agencies. Met \u00c9ireann is following international best practice and the approach adopted by other countries that have comparable localised weather warning systems. Alongside putting in place pre-operational localised warning systems, it is essential to ensure that the new warnings are clearly understandable by those who will use them. This has to be achieved through robust independent scientific research, which includes the use of focus groups. This work is under way at the moment. The objective is to assess how users interpret the information presented, identify any areas of confusion and ensure that the system supports effective decision-making during high-impact weather events. The localised system will be in place before the start of the next storm season."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Meteorological Services"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_7","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Wind Energy Guidelines","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_7","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Albert Dolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Albert Dolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Albert Dolan I am raising this issue today because Ireland is still planning for the wind turbines of 2026 using guidelines written in 2006. The reality is that the game has completely changed in those 20 years. When these guidelines were introduced, turbines were typically 80 m to 85 m in height. Today, in my constituency of Galway East, communities are facing proposals for turbines reaching 180 m and beyond in height. The technology, the scale and the impact on communities have changed. The only thing that has not changed is the guidelines, which have not kept pace. I have raised this issue repeatedly in this House, including directly raising it with the Taoiseach, because I believe we need a sensible and balanced approach to wind energy development. Let me be absolutely clear; I support renewable energy. Ireland needs it. We need greater energy independence and to reduce our reliance on imported fossil fuels. Most importantly, we need an energy system that delivers lower electricity prices for households, farmers and businesses. That has to be the ultimate objective. The transition to renewable energy must deliver tangible benefits to the people who are paying the bills. However, supporting renewable energy does not mean accepting every development in every location at any scale without appropriate safeguards. In Galway East, I have spoken to families and communities who are genuinely concerned about the size of proposed turbines, their proximity to homes, noise, shadow flicker and the impact on the rural landscape. These are legitimate concerns and they deserve to be addressed through a modern evidence-based planning framework. We cannot expect communities to have confidence in a planning system that relies on guidelines that are two decades old. I want to see updated guidelines that properly reflect the height, scale and technological capabilities of modern turbines. That means appropriate setback distances from homes, clear and enforceable noise limits, protections against shadow flicker and meaningful community consultation. We need the communities that are hosting this infrastructure to see a real benefit from the energy being generated around them. The Taoiseach indicated his hope yesterday that the new national planning statement would be issued before the end of the year. I welcome that indication, but communities have been waiting quite some time. My request today is straightforward. Will the Minister of State give us a firm timetable for publication, ensure the new guidelines reflect the reality of modern wind turbines and provide the protections that rural communities deserve? I firmly believe that we can deliver renewable energy, lower electricity costs and respect for rural communities. Those issues should not be at odds. I have attended multiple public meetings in my constituency over the last year at which people expressed concerns about wind farms. Prior to the general election, there was a meeting with over 300 people in attendance in Tuam. The conversation was open and honest about the issues that people are facing. One of the worst problems is that these communities receive very poor consultation. That is one of the main issues driving the inequity in these decisions. I understand that it is a matter for the planning process, but we have to show leadership on it as well."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Byrne I thank Deputy Dolan for raising this important issue on behalf of his constituents in east Galway. I am taking the matter on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Browne. I acknowledge the importance of the Government's ambitious commitment that 80% of electricity demand is met by renewables in the near term, with plans to move to net zero by 2050, in order to reduce our costs and protect the environment. lreland is developing a renewables-led electricity system, which will reduce emissions, ensure the energy security of the State and protect Irish households and businesses from the volatility of the international fossil fuel markets. Onshore wind energy is fundamental to this transition. The Planning and Development Act 2024 introduces provisions for what are known as national planning statements. These national planning statements have been introduced to replace ministerial guidelines that were issued under section 28 of the Planning and Development Act 2000. All existing guidelines will, over time, be revoked and replaced with new planning statements. Any current section 28 guidelines will remain in force until revoked or replaced by a corresponding national planning statement. Subsequently, this means new planning guidance on wind energy development will be issued as a national planning statement following a review of the existing wind guidelines. While this has been ongoing for a period of time, progress has been made towards concluding the review process. I can advise the House that it is currently the intention that a draft national planning statement will be published as part of a public consultation at the end of quarter 1 of 2027. In respect of sectoral national planning statements, such as on onshore wind energy development, there is also an important role for the relevant policy Department in collaborating with the Department of housing on the development of national planning statements. In this context, the Department of housing is working closely with the Department of climate, as the Department with policy responsibility for this area of Government policy. I reiterate that the Government's position is that public participation is a key element of all substantive decision-making processes under the Planning and Development Act. The draft national planning statement on wind energy will be subject to strategic environmental assessment, and a public consultation will be held as part of the process, whereby individuals and stakeholders, including local community groups, will have the opportunity to make observations on the draft national planning statement. It will also be open to any member of the public to make an observation or submission on a planning application, including in relation to wind energy development. The planning authority is statutorily obliged to consider such submissions before making a decision on the application."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Albert Dolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Albert Dolan Go raibh maith agat, a Aire St\u00e1it. I appreciate the indication that the planning statement will be published before the end of quarter 1 of 2027. A lot of communities will be concerned because there are so many live applications for onshore wind developments going through An Coimisi\u00fan Plean\u00e1la. Many communities want to see these updated guidelines go out for public consultation as soon as possible in order that they can be taken into account in any decision that An Coimisi\u00fan Plean\u00e1la might make. I want to emphasise one final point. We are dealing with an entirely different scale of wind turbine today than we were in 2006. That is the fundamental change here. In 2006, the guidelines were adequate for what was being proposed. They not seem to be adequate today. Turbines are over 180 m in height. They have a huge impact on the landscape and a huge presence. There is a huge amount of wind development in Offaly. I recently visited the area to see what living in close proximity to wind turbines is like, and whether people could hear them, if there was noise and what the issues were. One resident is living in an old house, and the irony is that the house is a protected structure, so they could not put in new windows which would help with the noise issues. They could hear wind turbines late at night from over a kilometre away. That is just one example. I understand that each case has to be taken on a case-by-case basis, but we are dealing with a different technology. We, as legislators, need to ensure that the guidelines keep pace with the reality on the ground, so that rural communities are protected. That is where I am coming from on this. I support renewable energy and want to see us get energy prices down for our constituents because that is what they want us to do. They want us to lower the price of energy, and if renewable energy gets us there, then happy days. I just want it to be done a responsible way."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Byrne Significant progress has been made towards the publication of the national planning statement as a matter of priority. We intend to open it for public consultation by the end of quarter 1 next year. The statement needs to provide for a robust, up-to-date policy which considers the evolved context, the technological progress of recent decades and the critical need for Ireland to meet our ambitious target of 9 GW of onshore wind energy capacity. It is vital because the programme for Government commits to the delivery of this by 2030. The target has gone up from 5 GW to 9 GW. The perspectives of everybody will be considered as part of the public consultation. The national planning statement seeks to strike an appropriate balance by addressing the concerns of communities and ensuring there is a greater and earlier community engagement by wind energy developers, while also ensuring that Ireland's ability to deliver on its binding energy policy obligations and to get cheaper and better energy are maintained."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Wind Energy Guidelines"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_8","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Swimming Pools","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Matt Carthy I thank the Minister of State for being here. It is always helpful when the Minister with responsibility is in attendance. Nach bhfuil m\u00e9 ceart?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Byrne I used to be."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Matt Carthy T\u00e1 br\u00f3n orm. Rinne m\u00e9 dearmad faoi sin. In that case, I express my disappointment that the Minister with responsibility is not here, although I know the Minister of State, Deputy Byrne, has a lot of knowledge in this area. Since long before my election to the D\u00e1il, going back as far as my first election to Carrickmacross Town Council over 25 years ago, one of the issues I have consistently raised is the need for a swimming pool in Carrickmacross. In fact, the demand for a public swimming pool in the town goes back long before that. There is a local legend about a huge fundraising drive that was undertaken as far back as the 1970s and into the 1980s when local people came together to raise funds for a swimming pool that did not materialise. In the period that I have been involved in politics, we have been raising this matter locally. Unfortunately, for a long period of time, it is fair to say that the executive of Monaghan County Council was not really on board and there was not the necessary drive at that level to progress the matter. We are now thankfully in a situation where there is unanimity and a determination locally to deliver a swimming pool. Monaghan County Council has assigned a site. That is very welcome and is something I have been calling for many years. The council appointed a design team this week and is putting in place a steering committee to progress this project. The demand for a swimming pool has now been proven. All the local schools, sports organisations and the wider community support it. We have tangible evidence of this because, in conjunction with Swim Ireland, we have had a temporary swimming pool in the town since 2004. It was supposed to remain for a six-month period and is still there. In fact, the pop-up pool will remain in place until December and is only leaving because it requires significant repair works and there are rising operational costs. However, it has been booked out throughout the time it has been in place. That provides very clear, rock-solid proof that public swimming facilities are needed in Carrickmacross and that this would be a worthy investment. I now believe we have all of the building blocks in place for the delivery of a swimming pool in Carrickmacross. There is one crucial element missing, namely, the necessary central government funding. Will the Government provide a clear pathway for towns like Carrickmacross to access funds? I have been raising this matter in the House since 2020. I have pages of responses I have received in that time. We were told there was a review of the large-scale sport infrastructure fund, LSSIF. We were told there had to be a national swimming strategy. All of those have been completed. What will be the route for towns like Carrickmacross to secure central government capital funding for the delivery of a swimming pool? Will that route be opened as speedily as possible so that we can deliver this infrastructure for the young people of Carrickmacross but for the wider community as well?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Byrne I thank the Deputy. Carrickmacross is a town I am very familiar with. Sport and physical activity are hugely important to our collective well-being. Swimming is one of the most important sports to ensure participation. Availability and ease of access to sports facilities, whether in a club setting, on public lands or in other amenity areas, drives participation. Planning for future facilities' needs, locations and types is a focus of the current sports action plan, which is supported by the work of Sport Ireland as a statutory consultee for local development plans and capital funds operated by the Department. There is real merit in the development of municipally backed shared sports facilities to make the best use of available funding. Therefore, I strongly encourage national governing bodies of sports and local authorities to collaborate on developing multisport facilities. That can include swimming. There are a number of examples around the country where local authorities have got together with national sports governing bodies and put in place multisport facilities. We only have to look at Castlebar and similar places. While this is a matter for Monaghan County Council, the Department has a number of funds, such as the community sport facilities fund and the large-scale sports infrastructure fund, that can be accessed to improve and develop swimming pools. The community sport facilities fund is open until February. Applications for swimming pools will be prioritised under that. In the context of a swimming pool, that is a smaller fund but there is also the LSSIF, which has allocated significant funding for swimming pools around the country where the local authorities have requested it. If I am correct, Monaghan County Council did not look for this funding previously. A previous local authority swimming pool grant was in place for 25 years. Lucan leisure campus was opened only recently, yet the grant for it was allocated in the early 2000s. Local authorities have a strong role to play to get these facilities over the line. We are looking at a future round of LSSIF but the current focus is on ensuring project delivery under the first two rounds of LSSIF. The Deputy mentioned the pop-up pool in Carrickmacross, which has been incredibly successful. When I was the Minister of State with responsibility for sport, I funded that. I also developed the national swimming strategy. This is very important. I know Carrickmacross very well and it would be an ideal location for a swimming pool. I certainly would support a swimming pool. My constituents would benefit enormously from one if one were there. I am certainly willing to work on that, and I know my colleagues in Monaghan, Councillor PJ O'Hanlon and Senator Robbie Gallagher, have been very supportive of this ambition as well."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Matt Carthy I welcome that indication from the Minister of State that he will support this. I will be the first to acknowledge that Monaghan County Council was previously far too slow in moving on this area. We have an excellent swimming facility in Monaghan town, which completely washes its own face financially after the initial investment, and I believe the same would be the case in Carrickmacross. However, we had an executive that was reluctant and we had councillors, including some the Minister of State mentioned, who voted to sell off the land that is now earmarked. Thankfully, that did sale did not happen. I agree that we need unity in progressing this project. As the Minister of State knows, Carrickmacross is a growing town. There is a lot of very welcome housing development, of which we need much more. We also have a great record of community organisations, particularly sporting organisations. We have the Carrick Aces running track. The Carrick Rovers soccer team is moving into new facilities. The Carrickmacross Emmets GAA club is currently in the middle of a huge fundraising drive, Every Square Matters, to deliver new, state-of-the-art facilities on the Donaghmoyne Road. We have kickboxing, basketball and a myriad of other sporting organisations doing huge work. The missing piece that all of those sporting organisations would benefit from is a swimming pool. I believe Monaghan County Council is now in a different place, where there is unity of purpose and determination in the council executive. From the CEO down, the council is entirely in support of this proposal, to the point that it has earmarked land and appointed a design team. My appeal to the Minister of State is that when an application for funding is submitted, it is prioritised. This campaign goes back to the 1970s at a local level, although it did not have the support of the local authority. Now that the local authority is on board, we do not want to be waiting 30 years to go through bureaucracy and applications. We need prioritisation so that funding will be allocated and then delivered and we can provide these facilities for the people of growing towns like Carrickmacross."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Byrne When I was the Minister of State with responsibility of sport, I published our first ever national swimming strategy. That set out a vision to give everybody in the country an opportunity to swim. If there was a swimming pool in Carrickmacross, I would support it because my constituents around Meath Hill, Drumconrath, Nobber and the Kingscourt area would benefit hugely from it. We knew from that strategy that we did not have enough swimming pools. We accepted that. As a result of the strategy, Swim Ireland carried out an in-depth analysis of swimming pool provision in Ireland that looked at all sorts of different factors. That gap analysis report is available on its website. That report is being examined by the Department of sport and will be a key input in the future development of swimming pool facilities. It is important to acknowledge our swimmers in the Olympics who have done incredible work representing this country from all parts of the island. I am very proud of them. In some cases, it was difficult for them, with the facilities we have on the island, North and South. We are giving additional funding to Swim Ireland for the deployment of swimming activators who are working with local authorities to try to change the mindset in local authorities. We want increasing participation and we want existing swimming pools opened for longer hours. We have given over \u20ac1.5 million to Swim Ireland since I established that fund in 2024. The impact of that is being felt. We have seen an increased number of participation programmes and partnerships throughout 2025, including Carrickmacross. The Department is considering further funding. There are also a number of other funds. We have capital opportunities. I have set out the community sports facilities fund and the large-scale sports infrastructure fund. The former is open and I hope the LSSIF will open again. It is up to the local authority to now work with Sport Ireland and, I suggest, other governing bodies of sports because swimming pools nowadays are not just a pool of water with a shed around them. They tend to be multisport facilities, and that is the way we should be looking at these things."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Swimming Pools"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_9","debateType":"motion","bill":null,"showAs":"Protected Disclosures Inquiry: Motion [Private Members]","counts":{"speechCount":29,"speakerCount":18},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_9","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aindrias Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Nicholas Gogarty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Claire Kerrane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin Hayes","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ken O'Flynn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ken-O'Flynn.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ken-O'Flynn.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aindrias Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Aindrias Moynihan) Before proceeding, I remind Members that parliamentary privilege should be exercised in a responsible manner, and Members should avoid making allegations against identifiable persons who are not in a position to respond. Under the sub judice rule, there is also an onus to avoid comment that may prejudice the outcome of legal proceedings. Therefore, Members should exercise particular care in their contributions and refrain from naming individuals, including any person who may have made a protected disclosure."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn I move: That D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann: notes that: \u2014 concerns were raised regarding the safety, suitability and serviceability of certain Garda firearm holsters through protected disclosures, internal reports and training personnel prior to the fatal shooting of a member of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na in June 2020; \u2014 firearms instructors and other personnel are reported to have raised concerns about holster performance and equipment safety during training exercises; \u2014 evidence arising from training exercises and a firearms-related incident involving a Garda member shortly before the fatal shooting is said to have raised additional questions regarding holster safety and associated forensic findings; \u2014 questions remain as to whether the equipment worn by the Garda member at the time of his death was subjected to a comprehensive and independent technical examination; \u2014 a quality-assurance review completed in 2024 identified concerns regarding the investigation of protected disclosures relating to firearms equipment, including issues relating to technical expertise, forensic evidence, procurement processes and investigative methodology; \u2014 in 2025, concerns were raised by those involved in the protected disclosures process that significant questions remained unresolved and that further enquiries were required before certain disclosures could be closed; \u2014 responsibility for the disclosures were subsequently reassigned, and closed shortly thereafter, notwithstanding the existence of unresolved issues identified by those previously examining them; \u2014 further concerns have been raised regarding the engagement and withdrawal of independent technical expertise, the reliance on internal assessments, and the adequacy and independence of technical reports prepared during the course of the investigations; \u2014 allegations have been made that individuals who raised concerns through protected disclosures, or who challenged aspects of the investigative process, experienced adverse professional consequences; \u2014 questions have also been raised regarding the treatment of personnel involved in the administration and oversight of protected disclosures, and whether sufficient safeguards existed to protect them from adverse treatment; and \u2014 concerns have been expressed regarding the handling of disclosures involving allegations against senior office holders and whether existing arrangements provide sufficient independence, transparency and accountability; recognises that: \u2014 Detective Garda Horkan was much loved by his family and friends, was a pillar of his community and was a dedicated member of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, and his murder was a desperate loss to all who knew him; \u2014 the Horkan family have called for an independent public inquiry; and \u2014 ongoing criminal or inquest proceedings must be protected, but they should not become an indefinite reason for withholding independent scrutiny of distinct administrative and public-safety failures; has concerns that extend to: \u2014 defective ammunition, and the reported disposal of approximately 500,000 rounds; \u2014 firearms storage, recording and accountability; \u2014 procurement irregularities and alleged supplier favouritism; \u2014 inappropriate servicing or repair of privately owned firearms; \u2014 alleged misuse of Garda resources, fraud and financial wrongdoing; \u2014 ammunition procurement and testing; \u2014 staffing, training and specialist promotions within the Garda National Technical Bureau; and \u2014 potential consequences for public safety and the integrity of criminal investigations; and calls on the Government to constitute a full independent public inquiry that: \u2014 is genuinely independent of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na and the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration; \u2014 has effective powers to secure documents, electronic records and testimony; \u2014 can examine the knowledge, actions and omissions of senior Garda management, including the former Garda Commissioner Drew Harris, where relevant; \u2014 can independently test the disputed forensic examinations and the technical evidence concerning holster safety; \u2014 can examine the original procurement competition, the weighting of cost against quality, mandatory safety specifications, technical testing and the role of independent expertise; \u2014 can examine interference allegations, expert selection and the premature closure of protected disclosures; \u2014 can investigate allegations of penalisation and failures to protect reporting persons; \u2014 can review the accuracy of information supplied to Ministers, the Houses of the Oireachtas and the Horkan family; \u2014 can refer evidence of suspected criminal wrongdoing to the competent authorities; \u2014 can examine whether other protected disclosures involving public safety were inadequately investigated or closed without proper resolution; \u2014 can examine why the files were closed, and how two serious disclosures were closed on 23rd June, 2025, after the Protected Disclosures Manager had expressly stated that material questions remained unanswered; \u2014 can examine why cost was given greater weight than quality, who authorised 500 marks for cost and 400 for quality in the procurement of firearm holsters, what mandatory technical safety standards applied, and who independently verified compliance before the contract was awarded and the equipment issued; \u2014 can examine who was accountable, who authorised the reassignment, and the closure decisions and the representations subsequently made to the Ministers and the public; \u2014 can examine why were whistleblowers penalised; \u2014 can examine what statutory authority permitted the former Minister for Justice, Helen McEntee, to intervene in the handling of a report that the Office of the Protected Disclosures Commissioner had already transmitted to a designated statutory recipient under Section 10D of the Protected Disclosures Act 2014; \u2014 can examine why the former Minister for Justice, Helen McEntee, sent a Protected Disclosure to the then Garda Commissioner, Drew Harris, given that it was expressly identified as a separate Protected Disclosure in its own right; \u2014 can examine why on 21st December, 2023, a protected disclosure was redirected to An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na following a direction by the former Minister for Justice, Helen McEntee, and why identifying information appeared in the titles of attachments transmitted by the Department of Justice to senior Garda management, including to an individual implicated in the very allegations; \u2014 can examine why extremely serious allegations concerning the former Garda Commissioner, Drew Harris, did not meet the threshold for an investigation under Section 102B of the Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na Act 2005, what evidence was considered; and \u2014 who undertook that assessment and why was further information not sought through the designated statutory process before that conclusion was reached. First, I pay tribute to Detective Garda Colm Horkan, who was murdered in the line of duty in June 2020. He was a much-loved individual by his family and friends. He was a pillar of his community and a dedicated member of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. His murder was a desperate loss to all who knew him. From what I understand of Colm, he was a quiet individual and probably would not like his name to be used in a location such as this but he was also a man who fought for justice and truth, and that is important. I also pay tribute to the garda\u00ed who have stood up and made protected disclosures at great cost to themselves in recent years. Some of those garda\u00ed are in the Public Gallery with us here today, and I thank them for that. I pay tribute to some of the many journalists who have looked into this issue over the past few years - people like John Lee, Mick Clifford and others, who have made sure this information has come to light. While this issue is a complex one and has many different elements to it, at the heart of it is an incredible crisis at a senior level in An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na and a lack of ministerial oversight and, in some cases, Ministers breaking the law on what they are supposed to do in upholding the protected disclosures legislation. Remember the words \"protected disclosure\". The whole idea of a protected disclosure is that good people who see wrongdoing in a location can raise that wrongdoing, have it investigated and be protected in the manner in which they do that. What we see here is the opposite of that. We have seen very good garda\u00ed raise issues and be punished significantly for the actions they have taken. There is a serious result in that which is that in the future, good people will shut up. Good people will say nothing, will keep quiet, will keep their heads down or will leave. If that happens, a dysfunction will be created at the head and senior levels of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na - a dysfunction that will be detrimental to people's lives and one that will put garda\u00ed lives at risk. It will also hit the civilians they are supposed to serve hard. At the heart of these particular allegations, it is alleged the garda\u00ed were given materials that were unsafe. In this case, they were given holsters that did not retain the loaded guns they were carrying, and this could have possibly led to the serious injury of one particular garda and the murder of Detective Garda Colm Horkan. A garda raised this issue about these holsters in 2019, in advance of the murder of Detective Garda Colm Horkan. Firearms trainers within the garda\u00ed also raised these concerns. Video footage reportedly recorded during live firearms training in May 2020 demonstrated potential equipment safety problems. On 11 June 2020, a detective was involved in an accidental discharge associated with a firearm and that holster, subsequently giving rise to serious injury and forensic concerns. Serious questions arise from the fact this information was ignored, and we know these concerns were brought to senior garda\u00ed before Colm's murder. Who received the warnings and the video evidence? Why did the equipment remain in use, and who is responsible for assessing and managing that risk? An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na has publicly asserted that Colm's holster was examined by Forensic Science Ireland and a GNTB ballistic expert gave evidence at Stephen Silver's trial. It is seriously disputed whether those examinations adequately addressed the particular holster safety defects identified through the protected disclosure. Relevant safety defects have never been subject to an adequate technical examination. The McMenamin investigation recorded a visual inspection on Colm's holster on 7 February 2024, approximately three years and seven months after his murder. Serious questions remain concerning the qualifications and independence of the examiners, the testing undertaken and the scientific foundation for reassuring the conclusions. Who actually examined Colm's holster? What precise tests were undertaken? Where were the specific defects identified by the whistleblowers and were they tested? Where are the original reports, photographs, laboratory records and exhibit continuity documents? These are all questions that have not been answered. The procurement of leather pistol holsters raises questions about tendering, restructuring, supplier relationships, conflicts of interest and product quality, and the priority assigned to operational safety. The McMenamin report recorded an evaluation allocating a maximum of a thousand marks - 500 marks to cost, 400 marks to quality and 100 marks to delivery. That is incredibly serious. We have more marks afforded to the cost of a holster than to the quality of that particular product. Why was cost allocated more than quality in the procurement of a product that held a loaded firearm carried by a Garda member? A Garda firearm holster is not an ordinary piece of equipment or clothing; it is essential in retaining and securing a loaded firearm and protecting that member, their colleagues and the public from accidental discharge, unauthorised access or equipment failure. Public procurement principles permit this situation to arise. Who allowed for that public procurement principle to be put in place, and why has it not been changed? A tender arrangement in which a lower-price product could overcome materially inferior safety performance raises fundamental questions as to the design of that competition. The McMenamin report also had concerns around the serviceability and evidence-questioning claims that the selected holsters were superior to earlier Cobra holsters. Who approved the tender evaluation, and who allocated the 500 marks to cost but only 400 to quality for this? Who exposed garda\u00ed to this potentially fatal danger? Who determined the weighting? These are all questions that have not been answered on this. Were experienced firearms trainers, ballisticians, armourers and independent technician specialists consulted before these contracts were awarded? What product testing happened for this, including testing under realistic operational conditions following prolonged use? What role did the supplier take in the tenders and their structures? Were there conflicts of interest at play here? The second element of our motion today looks at what happened to the garda\u00ed who were involved in trying to bring this information to light, which is incredible. The information I and many others have received here is unprecedented in the history of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. On July 2024, protected disclosure manager, Rose Sweeney, and facilitator, Dr. Donal Corcoran, prepared a detailed 108-page quality assurance review. The McMenamin investigation into PD 2020\/04 raised specific questions around the holster safety, contradictory forensic evidence, suitability of technical experts, procurement and investigation deficiency. On 9 June 2026, Rose Sweeney informed Commissioner Drew Harris that critical questions remained unanswered and further inquiries could affect the outcome. On 17 June 2025, Rose Sweeney expressly stated that she was not in a position to close the disclosure. On Friday, 20 June 2025, responsibility was assigned to the new manager. On Monday, 23 June 2025, the next working day, PD 2020\/04 and PD 2022\/15 were closed. That is an extraordinary situation to happen. Individuals tasked and paid at the most senior level to investigate serious allegations of wrongdoing in An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na were moved, documents were closed, and there was no further investigation. On 8 July 2025, Rose Sweeney continued to challenge the closure and the unanswered questions, and no substantive answer to that challenge is known to have been received. This is outrageous at any level. Who directed that reassignment? What changed over the weekend? Where are the answers to the 108-page review? Are there any answers to that? Does the Minister know what is asked in that review? Does he know the answers in that review? On what evidentiary basis were the investigations into firearms safety risks closed? That is a cliffhanger of lack of information that exists around serious threats to life and limb. Lieutenant Colonel Raymond Lane was selected to provide independent specialist expertise on firearms-related disclosures. His proposed involvement did not proceed as originally envisaged. Serious questions arise considering interventions by senior Garda management, including the former Commissioner Drew Harris in relation to this. Who intervened in the independent expert arrangements? Why was Raymond Lane not permitted to complete the work proposed? Who selected the alternative examiners? Why did the proposed independent policing expertise not materialise? Serious questions then arise concerning statements made by senior Garda management about the holster-safety forensic examinations. This is important. Brian O'Reilly disputes aspects of information supplied to the Horkan family, including the description of forensic examination of Colm's holster. Statements made by the former Commissioner Drew Harris and other senior Garda officers to Oireachtas committees must be compared with documentary records available at the time. We are not just talking about this one specific issue. There is a whole range of firearms questions at the heart of this. We have defective ammunition and the reported disposal of approximately 500,000 rounds of defective ammunition, firearms storage, recording and accountability, procurement irregularities, alleged supplier favouritism, inappropriate servicing or repair of privately-owned firearms, alleged misuse of Garda resources, fraud and financial wrongdoing, ammunition procurement and testing, potential consequences for public safety and the integrity of criminal investigations. How many of these matters has the Minister investigated that he knows about? How many were administratively closed, and what corrective actions were taken, and can the Minister demonstrate that they were done? This was the other element of the protected disclosures issue. These are the questions in relation to those who raised the alarm. Remember, the whole idea of the protected disclosure is to protect the whistleblower. Brian O'Reilly alleges adverse professional consequences following his protected disclosure, including decisions affecting his responsibilities at the GNTB and the firearms stores. Serious questions also arise concerning the treatment of persons within the protected disclosures office, such as Donal Corcoran, who challenged investigative deficiencies. Alleged penalisation may involve the removal of duties, exclusion, reputational undermining, and confidentiality breaches that have a cumulative professional or financial detriment. All of these elements appear to have happened to these individuals. What happened to the protected disclosures office is quite incredible. It ceased, a new one was created, and the individuals who worked in that office were then reassigned to other responsibilities. These are serious questions and there are questions for the Minister for justice as well. There is a report in the Irish Examiner today about garda\u00ed and firearms procurement for a private gun club in 2018. It is reported that there have been no prosecutions. The then Minister for justice seemingly unwittingly signed the licence for that procurement. Are we talking about \"Fawlty Towers\" here in relation to firearms? There are serious questions about the competence of the former Minister, Deputy McEntee, and about whether she broke the law. She has not explained on what statutory authority, as former Minister for justice, she intervened in the handling of reports of the Office of the Protected Disclosures Commissioner that had already been transmitted to a designated statutory recipient under section 10(D) of the Protected Disclosures Act. Why on 21 December 2023 was a protected disclosure redirected to An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na following a direction from the then Minister, Deputy McEntee? Why did she identify information in the titles of those attachments transmitted to the Department and senior Garda management that allowed for the knowledge about the individual to be made known? These questions have not been answered. The Minister's amendment does not significantly address them, and he has to change it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Collins Independent Ireland will be supporting this motion. First and foremost, we remember Detective Garda Colm Horkan who was murdered in Castlerea in June 2020 while serving his community. Our thoughts remain with his family, colleagues, and all those who continue to feel that loss today. Nothing said in this debate should take away from one fundamental fact. The individual responsible for Detective Garda Horkan's murder was convicted by the courts and bears responsibility for that crime but there is a separate question before us today. That question is whether serious concerns relating to Garda equipment, procurement processes and protected disclosures were properly examined when they were raised. We know concerns were raised about the firearm holsters issued to Garda members. We know questions have been raised about testing procurement decisions and whether warnings from experienced Garda personnel received the attention they deserved. The Horkan family have consistently called for an independent public inquiry. That request deserves to be treated with respect and seriousness. Every garda who goes on duty has a right to expect that the equipment issued to them is safe, properly tested and fit for purpose. Safety-critical equipment cannot be judged primarily on cost. The protection of front-line garda\u00ed must always come first. We must also look carefully at the handling of protected disclosures. The whole purpose of the whistleblower legislation is to ensure that people can raise concerns about public safety, potential wrongdoing or failures within organisations without fear of retaliation or damage to their careers. When somebody comes forward with legitimate a concern, the priority should be to investigate the warnings, not the person raising them. I want to put direct questions to the Minister. Will the Minister confirm whether any warnings, reports or concerns about the safety of these firearm holsters were received before Detective Garda Horkan's death, and what action was taken in response? Was the actual holster worn by Detective Garda Horkan independently examined and by whom? Will the findings be made available? Were protected disclosures relating to these matters closed in June 2025 and were all outstanding issues fully addressed before that decision was taken? Who approved the procurement criteria for the holster, including the weighting given to cost and quality, and what mandatory safety testing was required before they were issued to Garda members? Will the Minister now commit to establishing an independent statutory inquiry with the power to compel documents and witnesses, so that these questions can finally be answered?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard O'Donoghue Today is about a wrongdoing, a wrong investigation into something at the cost of a member of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na's life. Detective Garda Colm Horkan lost his life over a faulty holster, which was raised by other Garda members. I see the Minister shaking his head. He has no qualification to even look at this. The people in the Gallery have the qualifications to look at holsters and they were not given a proper opportunity because it was covered up and the investigation was not done properly. We are trying to encourage people to join An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na to uphold the law. When we look at the history over the past eight years, and at the eight garda\u00ed, it took five years to come to a conclusion where they were found innocent. Who was at the head of this investigation? It was Drew Harris who has single-handedly destroyed An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. Why? It is because he was brought up in a policing model that is not in Ireland. It is An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na - the guardians of our State and not the state he wanted us to go to. The people who stood up here - Brian O'Reilly, Raymond Lane and Donal Corcoran - put themselves on the line to get justice and right a wrong. What did they do? They turned everything back on them. What does that say about the type of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na Drew Harris wanted, using his power in that position and putting pressure on other senior people to make sure this stayed quiet? There needs to be investigations into the person who caused this and not only this. Remember the eight garda\u00ed who were taken off Garda duties and found innocent. Nothing was done about that either."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister for Justice (Deputy Jim O'Callaghan) I move: To delete all words after \"D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann\" and substitute the following: \"notes that: \u2014 there are robust structures, policies and procedures in place across the criminal justice sector, including in An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, to ensure the effective management of protected disclosures and to provide support to people who make disclosures under the Protected Disclosures (Amendment) Act 2022; and \u2014 the Government will not publicly discuss the merits or detail of any protected disclosure, since it is not for any Minister to reach conclusions on the veracity or legitimacy of any disclosure, as that is a function for the prescribed investigating bodies; recognises that: \u2014 Detective Garda Colm Horkan was much loved by his family and friends and was a highly respected and dedicated member of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, and his murder was an appalling crime and is a tremendous loss to his family, friends and the Garda family; \u2014 the murder of Detective Garda Horkan epitomises the risk and sacrifice that has been made by many members of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na; and \u2014 concerns have been raised about the safety and suitability of the firearm holster used by Detective Garda Horkan at the time of the incident in which he was fatally shot; further notes that: \u2014 having regard to the importance of ensuring that equipment issued to members of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na is safe, the Minister for Justice, Home Affairs and Migration has requested, under section 205(2) of the Policing, Security and Community Safety Act 2024, that Fiosr\u00fa, the Office of the Police Ombudsman, investigate questions concerning the safety and suitability of the holster Detective Garda Horkan was using at the time of his murder; and \u2014 the purpose of such a referral is to establish, through an independent external investigation, whether the holster gave rise to any operational or safety concerns; further recognises that: \u2014 a number of measures have been taken to strengthen protected disclosure mechanisms within An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na; \u2014 a new and strengthened Protected Disclosures Unit was established in January 2025, within the Garda Office of the Assistant Commissioner for Governance and Accountability, which also has responsibility for the Garda Anti-Corruption Unit and the Professional Standards Unit, the office was assigned additional and dedicated staff who have the requisite training and qualifications to undertake their role; \u2014 extensive training has also been provided to managers across An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na and, in addition, all personnel who make protected disclosures are advised of support services; \u2014 the Policing, Security and Community Safety Act 2024, established the Garda Board, the Policing and Community Safety Authority (replacing the Policing Authority and Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na Inspectorate) and Fiosr\u00fa; \u2014 the Act was designed to enhance governance, oversight and accountability in relation to the delivery of policing and security services by An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na; \u2014 An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na have emphasised that they encourage and support employees in disclosing wrongdoing and that all allegations made under the Protected Disclosures Acts to An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na are treated seriously, and examined for any potential disciplinary or criminal matters that may arise; and \u2014 a review of the operation of the Protected Disclosures (Amendment) Act is due to take place in the coming year; furthermore, notes that: \u2014 the Protected Disclosures (Amendment) Act requires Ministers to transmit reports of wrongdoing to the Protected Disclosures Commissioner; \u2014 the relevant legislation was adhered to in transmitting such reports; and \u2014 it is not appropriate to comment or draw assumptions from partial information that relates to a process that, by its design, includes legislative provisions that protect the confidentiality of the discloser, and the details relating to the disclosure; and furthermore, recognises that: \u2014 there are robust structures, policies and procedures in place that ensure the effective management of protected disclosures in An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, and to provide support to those who make disclosures under the Act; \u2014 there are multiple independent avenues for Garda personnel to make disclosures to ensure that disclosures are treated with the appropriate level of independent consideration, and the Government is satisfied that there are robust procedures and protections for those who make disclosures; and \u2014 several ongoing legal processes and investigations should be allowed to progress and conclude and so consequently, a public inquiry is not under consideration at this time.\". The family of Detective Garda Colm Horkan suffered a devastating loss when he was murdered while on duty in Castlerea in 2020. I believe I speak for everyone in this House when I say that Colm\u2019s murder shocked us all. Colm lost his life doing a job that he loved - protecting the community and serving An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na and the State with duty and distinction. His murder again reminded us of the risks the brave men and women of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na take every day to protect our communities and the burden all Garda families carry in supporting them and in mourning the loss of the fallen. I have met with the Horkan family on a number of occasions, most recently last Thursday, and I am aware of its call for a public inquiry into Colm\u2019s death. It should be noted that the only person responsible for Colm\u2019s murder is the individual who has been convicted of his murder. I am conscious that an appeal judgment is awaited from the Court of Appeal in respect of that conviction. It is important to allow for the conclusion of criminal proceedings that are ongoing and the outcome of the coroner\u2019s inquest, which will be held in public, and other matters I will outline now before considering if there is a need for a public inquiry. I would like to inform the House of a recent decision I took in relation to this matter. Questions have been raised in this House, particularly by Deputy Kelly, and elsewhere by the Horkan family and others concerning the operation of the holster he was using at the time of his murder, including its firearm-retention characteristics and its suitability for operational policing. I am of the view that these are matters of public interest that require independent examination by Fiosr\u00fa. Colm\u2019s family is entitled to know if his holster contributed in any way to his murder and the public is entitled to expect that our brave garda\u00ed are equipped with equipment that is fit for purpose and does not add to the risk they face day in, day out as they go about their business keeping the people of Ireland safe. In light of the ongoing controversy surrounding the holster Colm was using and the public interest in getting to the truth as to its role or otherwise in his murder, this week, I wrote to Fiosr\u00fa - the Police Ombudsman - invoking the provisions of section 205(2) of the Policing, Security and Community Safety Act 2024 to request that it undertake an investigation in the public interest into matters concerning the safety and suitability of the firearm holster used by Garda Horkan at the time he was murdered. This is not the first time I have written to Fiosr\u00fa seeking an investigation into issues raised surrounding the use of the holster. On 27 February 2025, in my first month as Minister, I invoked section 102(5) of the Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na Act 2005 and referred the issues raised by Detective Superintendent Brian O'Reilly to GSOC. I referred the issues raised by him to GSOC because I believed it was in the public interest for his complaints to be investigated. In referring this matter to GSOC, I also assumed, based on the commentary and correspondence I have seen and heard, that this would meet with his approval. He had expressly requested that his complaints be investigated by GSOC. Therefore, I was disappointed when I was informed by Fiosr\u00fa, which has now replaced GSOC, in a letter to the Department dated 28 May 2026 that \"in the absence of further engagement from the reporting person Fiosr\u00fa\u2019s investigation of this matter has been discontinued in accordance with section 93(1)( c ) of the Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na Act 2005.\" On a positive note, however, Fiosr\u00fa did state that it had advised Detective Superintendent O\u2019Reilly that he was entitled to engage directly with that office at any time in the future. I wrote to Detective Superintendent O\u2019Reilly on 1 October 2026 asking him to re-engage with Fiosr\u00fa, so that it can complete the investigation of his complaints. Again, I ask him to re-engage. Fiosr\u00fa is the appropriate statutory body to investigate his complaints. I am satisfied that Fiosr\u00fa has all the powers needed to fully investigate this matter, particularly since the enactment of the Policing, Security and Community Safety Act 2024. Fiosr\u00fa is fully independent in the exercise of its functions and I have every confidence in its capacity to investigate this issue without fear or favour. For my part, I am only interested in the truth of the matter. Colm\u2019s family deserves it and so does the public. I have advised the Garda Commissioner of my decision to refer the case to Fiosr\u00fa and he has assured me of the full co-operation of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na with the investigation. I should add that I have also directed my officials to write to the Roscommon coroner and offer the Department\u2019s practical support to ensure that the coronial investigation process is advanced in a timely manner. Insofar as the question of a public inquiry is concerned, my position is this: there are criminal proceedings before the courts and a coronial process to be undertaken. The Fiosr\u00fa investigation will take its course and reach conclusions on the matters. Once these processes have concluded, I will consider if there are any outstanding matters that need further inquiry or investigation and if so, the nature of any such inquiry or investigation. Turning to the matter of protected disclosures more generally, I would like to place on record that as Minister for Justice, Home Affairs and Migration, I take extremely seriously any protected disclosures that are made within the justice sector. To facilitate those reporting a protected disclosure, a member of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na or Garda staff has a number of options. In the first instance, he or she can make the protected disclosure to the protected disclosures unit within An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, go to Fiosr\u00fa, go to the Office of the Protected Disclosures Commissioner or go to a Minister. The protected disclosures Act is designed to enable a discloser to make a protected disclosure without his or her identity being publicised except for the proposes of the investigation itself. In updating the legislation in 2022, the Oireachtas made several important amendments to the 2014 Act. Most notably, it created the Office of the Protected Disclosures Commissioner and it removed Ministers from the follow-up and investigation of protected disclosures. Specifically, section 8(3) of the Act, as amended, requires Ministers to transmit reports of wrongdoing to the Protected Disclosures Commissioner without having considered the report, the information or any allegation. As the House will be aware, the Garda Commissioner is responsible for the management and administration of Garda business, including the organisation's obligations under the Protected Disclosures Act. I know that An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na considers the handling of protected disclosures to be of the utmost importance and is committed to ensuring the integrity of the structure and process for making and investigating all such reports. I am assured by the Garda Commissioner that all protected disclosures made to An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na are treated seriously. Furthermore, the Commissioner has taken a number of measures to strengthen the protected disclosure mechanisms and structures within An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. A new protected disclosures unit was established in January 2025 within the office of the assistant commissioner for governance and accountability, which also has responsibility for the Garda anti-corruption unit and the professional standards unit. The office was assigned additional and dedicated staff who have the requisite training and qualifications to undertake their role. In addition, Transparency International Ireland has provided training to the protected disclosures unit and senior Garda managers and provides support and confidential advice to any member of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na who may be considering making a protected disclosure. Extensive training has also been provided to Garda managers across An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. All personnel who make protected disclosures are advised of support services that are available to them. The Policing, Security and Community Safety Act 2024 established the Garda Board, the Policing and Community Safety Authority and Fiosr\u00fa-the Office of the Police Ombudsman. These changes enhance governance, oversight and accountability in relation to the delivery of policing and security services by An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. Where protected disclosures are made internally within An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, the 2024 Act gives the Garda Board and the audit committee important oversight roles in relation to the operation of the protected disclosures system in An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na has emphasised that it encourages and supports employees in disclosing wrongdoing and that all allegations made under protected disclosures are treated seriously and examined for any potential disciplinary or criminal matters that may arise. Having regard to these changes and the substantial programme of Garda reform that has been undertaken over the last decade, I am satisfied that there is a robust system in place to deal with and oversee the handling of protected disclosures in An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. As I have outlined today, there are a number of legal processes and investigations ongoing relating to protected disclosures, which, directly or indirectly, are linked to the question of the suitability of the holster used by detective garda Colm Horkan. I am confident that the referral by me of this issue to Fiosr\u00fa for investigation can provide the Horkan family and the public with the answers they deserve but if there are still outstanding issues, I will consider what further inquiry or investigation is needed. I commend the countermotion to the House."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Darren O'Rourke) I have just taken the Chair. Before we continue I remind Members that parliamentary privilege should be exercised in a responsible manner and Members should avoid making allegations against identifiable persons who are not in a position to respond. Under the sub judice rule there is also an onus to avoid comment that may prejudice the outcome of legal proceedings. Therefore, Members should exercise particular care in their contributions and refrain from naming individuals, including any person who may have made a protected disclosure. On that basis, we move forward to the next speaker, an Teachta Paul Lawless."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul Lawless I want to make clear that Aont\u00fa will not support the Government's amendment to the motion. The Garda whistleblower scandal is extremely serious. I have never seen anything of this scale in my lifetime. My eyes have been opened to the level of corruption happening before our eyes. It is incomprehensible that there has been so little debate, and no debate in this Chamber, following the \u201cRT\u00c9 Investigates\u201d programme. I cannot understand how the former Minister for Justice, Helen McEntee, who decided that her Department would not investigate the protected disclosures about gun holsters still holds a Cabinet position. This is an extremely complicated issue but at the heart of it we know detective garda Colm Horkan was working in Castlerea and was murdered on 17 June 2020. He was shot after he approached a man named Stephen Silver. Silver managed to disarm detective Horkan from the holster and fired 15 rounds of ammunition, 11 of which wounded detective Horkan. Colm Horkan was a native of Charlestown. In recent days, weeks and months, Garda whistleblowers have come forward with very serious allegations and questions about the gun holster that Colm Horkan was wearing that night. We know that six days prior to the murder of Colm Horkan detective garda Eddie Connell was working in Dublin when he suffered injuries after the gun he was holding in the same holster worn by Colm Horkan was triggered in the holster. The whistleblowers are alleging that safety concerns about the holster were ignored by senior members of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. They allege it was brought to the attention of senior members of the force over a year before that fateful night of 17 June 2020. They allege that the Garda Commissioner at the time, Drew Harris, effectively blocked safety reviews for this particular holster. When senior officers blew the whistle on the scandal and made a protected disclosure to the then Minister for Justice, she refused to have her Department investigate the matter despite the fact that the Office of the Protected Disclosures Commissioner directed her Department to investigate it. Instead of doing so and following protocol and the law, she had that disclosure returned to An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na and the Garda Commissioner. In so doing, she leaked the accuser\u2019s name to the person against whom the allegation was made. The man making the disclosure was detective superintendent Brian O\u2019Reilly, a former head of the Garda Technical Bureau. His disclosure was sent back to An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na to investigate because the Minister refused to do so. That is a very serious thing to happen. When the internal Garda unit responsible for investigating the protected disclosures tried to investigate the issues that had been raised, and there were many issues of serious allegations of wrongdoing in the force, Garda management tried to block those investigations and interfered with the protected disclosure process. Eventually the protected disclosure unit itself was effectively dismantled. The individuals involved in the unit, Dr. Donal Corcoran and Rose Sweeney, were so frustrated with the process they themselves made protected disclosures."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Darren O'Rourke) The Deputy\u2019s time is up now. He had five minutes. An Teachta Gogarty."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Nicholas Gogarty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul Nicholas Gogarty Like most people in this country I have huge respect for the rank and file members of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, who are decent hard-working people who put their safety on the line every single day and do not get paid enough, but as this motion highlights we are looking at an ongoing systemic failure within the higher procurement and management structures of the force. Let us look at the facts. We had an administrative system that prioritised financial savings over human lives. How on earth does anyone think it is acceptable for a police force to award 500 marks for cost and only 400 marks for quality and safety specifications when buying standard issue firearm holsters? It does not make sense. It is a farce. What happens when you cut corners on safety standards? You get defective equipment issued to front-line officers leading directly to life-altering accidents and tragedy. We see the ultimate price paid in the horrific murder of detective garda Colm Horkan and injuries to garda Connell. It gets worse, however, because when people internally tried to raise flags about these issues and used the statutory protected disclosures process to say, \u201cGabh mo leithsc\u00e9al, there is an issue with the holsters. There is an issue with half a million rounds of defective ammunition being dumped\u201d, the system failed them and actively turned on the whistleblowers who were professionally penalised, sidelined and basically run out of their careers by senior management. This has happened before and we should have learned those lessons already. The independent protected disclosures manager explicitly stated in June 2025 that major public safety questions remained unresolved. What did the powers that be do? They stripped the files away and closed them down anyway. That goes to the issue of political accountability in relation to the former Minister for Justice, Helen McEntee, for example. The Office of the Protected Disclosures Commissioner gave an independent statutory direction for the Secretary General of the Department of justice to investigate the serious allegations against senior management, but instead of letting that happen the former Minister chose to invoke section 102B of the Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na Act 2005. The Government can say she had to follow that route but independent legal scholars like Dr. Lauren Kierans BL, cofounder of the European Whistleblowing Institute, have looked at the framework and said that the additional steps in the process are frustrating transparency. She is right because the extra steps did not find the truth; they acted as a screen. Former Attorney General and now Senator, Michael McDowell, has also questioned the reliance on this legislation and has basically called it a non-binding choice. We have to ask what advice was given to the Minister to take this non-binding decision. This was a decision that left her exposed to multiple accusations because under section 102B a formal investigation into the Commissioner requires the explicit approval of the Government. It states the ombudsman commission may at the request of the Minister or of its own motion but \"subject to the consent of the Minister given with the approval of the Government, investigate any matter that gives rise to a concern that the Garda Commissioner may have (a) committed an offence, or (b) behaved in a manner that would constitute serious misconduct.\" The Government did not recommend an investigation into the former Commissioner, Drew Harris. It decided the high bar was not met and that it was not legally required to activate or pursue the route at all - it was completely optional. If the Minister did not recommend a GSOC investigation, what statutory authority did she or her colleagues have to take a protected disclosure away from her Secretary General and send it straight to An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na? Section 102B gives her the power to request an Ombudsman probe. It does not give her a blank cheque to act as a delivery service for confidential files to be sent to senior management who may be the subject of an investigation or at least about whom questions may be asked. The consequence of that choice was a severe data breach in which the whistleblower's sensitive identifying details were sent directly, via email attachment, to senior garda\u00ed, who were the very people being complained about, as the recent RT\u00c9 documentary covered in detail. It makes an absolute mockery of whistleblower confidentiality. We cannot keep allowing the State apparatus to self-police and attack the whistleblower rather than deal with the message. I support this motion. We need a full public inquiry and actions to ensure that these types of wrongs, when called out by whistleblowers in the future, are dealt with and reported properly. We do not have faith in the system as it stands and we need to renew that faith."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Matt Carthy Taca\u00edonn Sinn F\u00e9in leis an r\u00fan seo agus f\u00e1iltim roimh an deis labhairt faoi na ceisteanna seo inniu. Sinn F\u00e9in has consistently called for transparency, accountability and independent scrutiny when serious issues raised by Garda whistleblowers have come before us, as well as the need for accountability in the overall effectiveness of the protected disclosures mechanisms in An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. It has to be said and the Minister needs to recognise that there is virtually no confidence that the protected disclosures regime in An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na is functioning and that has serious implications. I join others in paying tribute to Colm Horkan, but we need to be incredibly mindful in this House that the Horkan family has taken a significant and unprecedented step. The family of a garda killed in action has called for a public inquiry into the circumstances leading up to his death and that has to be taken seriously. That is why it is disappointing to see the Minister's amendment today, which essentially boils down to rejecting that call. I join the Minister and others in saying that Stephen Silver is the person responsible for garda Colm Horkan's death. He was rightly convicted, but his family is also entitled to know whether the tragedy could have been prevented and whether concerns raised in advance through protected disclosures regarding Garda equipment were properly acted on. The family has set out a series of specific questions, which it made public, regarding procurement of gun holsters, the handling of complaints and protected disclosures, and the actions taken by Garda management and relevant authorities when concerns were first raised. The family has said, and I agree, that the questions can only be properly examined by an independent inquiry. I am a little taken aback that the Minister has passed this on to Fiosr\u00fa and told the House that it is the forum that will resolve this issue. He knows, and we have heard countless pieces of evidence, that GSOC, throughout its existence, was seen not as an avenue for families to get truth or for the public to get answers, but as a delaying model. For example, we are both well aware of the case of Shane O'Farrell. The Minister knows that his predecessor in 2014 asked GSOC to carry out a public interest inquiry, exactly the same type of inquiry the Minister is suggesting is warranted in this case. He will know that inquiry was completed in 2018 and that today, in 2026, the family of Shane O'Farrell is before the courts trying to get access to the report of that public interest inquiry. The Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Home Affairs and Migration, the committee that has responsibility for this, has sought from Fiosr\u00fa the report of that public interest inquiry and Fiosr\u00fa has refused to provide it even to an Oireachtas committee. To suggest Fiosr\u00fa is a vehicle that will get answers is entirely disingenuous when all the evidence suggests it is a delaying tactic that will frustrate rather than facilitate the route to answers. There are serious questions, which have been raised here and elsewhere, regarding the procurement of the holsters and how a particular saddlery received the contract. We and the public need to know whether procurement decisions were based on appropriate and objective assessment criteria. There is a key question regarding the handling of safety concerns raised about the holsters and whether the warnings raised through the protected disclosures system were properly acted on. These questions need to be answered. We also need answers to questions about those who made the protected disclosures and how they were treated. Were the lessons we were told were learned after the treatment of Maurice McCabe actually learned? What is the current situation? We have been told that those who made protected disclosures have faced serious consequences for their jobs, careers and livelihoods. The issues they raised relate to public safety, the safety of members of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, Garda equipment, firearms storage, procurement practices and oversight. In other words, they are serious issues. The State promised that whistleblowers would never again experience the treatment suffered by Maurice McCabe and the question we have to ask is whether things have changed. Serious questions also remain regarding the handling by the former Minister for Justice, Deputy McEntee, of the protected disclosure and her role in this debacle. The House needs and deserves answers about what the Minister knew and when she knew it, what disclosures were brought to her attention, what actions she took, why concerns involving senior Garda figures were handed back to An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, what her role was in upholding the independence of the protected disclosures process and what measures, if any, she took to protect the disclosure. She has to come before the House to answer questions. We had the laughable situation yesterday of the T\u00e1naiste, Deputy Harris, saying a Member should come before the House and make a statement in respect of his role in a charity. That Member has requested time to do that but at the same time the T\u00e1naiste is standing in the way of a current Minister coming here, despite repeated requests, to answer questions about the safety of members of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, what she did and when information was brought to her attention. That position is untenable and the fact the Minister has told me that he would do what she did if the situation were to occur again says to me that, far from lessons having been learned, we are back to square one. We have a serious, fundamental issue in our public system, particularly in terms of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, when people, at huge cost to themselves, decide to make a protected disclosure. The role of protected disclosures is to inform management, the Government and the public about potential risks in a system. They did that. They deserve to be commended for doing it and we collectively have an obligation to act upon it. There cannot be any more hiding. There cannot be hiding for the Minister, Deputy McEntee, in her role. She has to come before the House and answer the questions before us because, above all, the public and members of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na need answers and the Horkan family deserves answers. We are six years on. Questions have been raised on multiple occasions in this House. They deserve to be answered and the Minister cannot hide behind Fiosr\u00fa or anyone else. He has a responsibility to ensure those questions are answered."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mark Ward I thank Aont\u00fa for bringing forward this motion on whistleblowers. Its primary focus is on whistleblowers in An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, but we have a bad history in this State in other departments with how we treat whistleblowers. In 2022, I raised the matter of a whistleblower in the south Kerry child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS, Dr. Ankur Sharma, whose concerns about the over-medication and misdiagnosis of children were vindicated by the Maskey report. Dr. Sharma highlighted that children were prescribed dangerous amounts of medication by a junior doctor who was not being supervised. This led to the Maskey report, which showed that 227 children received risky care from a barely supervised junior doctor. The treatment of 13 other children by other doctors was also found to be risky with proof of significant harm to another 46 children. Dr. Sharma was ostracised in the HSE resulting in him leaving his post. When the HSE struggled to recruit a consultant psychiatrist for Kerry, Dr. Sharma went back to the HSE and offered to fill the post of consultant psychiatrist in Kerry, only to be ignored. It is a measure of the man, which is why I am raising this again today, that despite his mistreatment by the HSE he was willing to return to help. He should have been commended and not ignored. In relation to today's motion, there was meant to have been a turning point on how protected disclosures were dealt with within the Garda after Maurice McCabe. However, we have seen recently that Garda members who were connected to the protected disclosures unit have alleged they were forced out of office for protecting whistleblowers. These are the people who tried to raise serious concerns from inside An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. They have given decades of service and tried to fulfil their duty in challenging wrongdoing. Instead, they were sidelined, obstructed and penalised. Even when garda\u00ed raised concerns about firearms equipment, these were not properly investigated. Shortly afterwards, detective garda Colm Horkan was fatally shot because his murderer was able to get the gun from his holster, despite these concerns having been raised. The Horkan family has called for an independent public inquiry into detective garda Colm Horkan's death and the Government must listen to them. Such a tragedy cannot be allowed to happen again and the family has to be listened to. If everything were rosy in the garden with the Garda, there would be no whistleblowers. However, we have seen reports this week that garda\u00ed have been flagged for disciplinary referrals for making comments to the media nine times in the last year and a half. The GRA is extremely concerned that its elected members could be silenced by the threats of discipline and I have to agree with it. As the Minister knows, we had some really robust engagement with the GRA at the justice committee in relation to the ability of garda\u00ed to pursue dangerous drivers, including cars, scramblers, scooters and e-bikes. We heard that as it stands, not one garda in this State is trained in pursuit, which is unacceptable in this day and age. Following this pressure, the pressure after the M9 tragedy and the tragic death of Grace Lynch, the Garda Commissioner agreed to start training this year using the train-the-trainer method. Garda\u00ed were to go to Britain to learn to become instructors so that they could train garda\u00ed here to pursue cars, scramblers, scooters and e-bikes. It is a bit late in the day, but it is welcome nonetheless. We would hope that it would lead to more garda\u00ed being trained as time goes by. However, at a recent public accounts committee meeting under questioning from my colleague Joanna Byrne, the Garda Commissioner could not confirm if garda\u00ed will get the training to pursue scramblers, e-bikes and scooters. This issue has taken up a huge amount of debate in this House, at the committee and among the public, particularly after the death of Grace Lynch. It is astonishing that the Garda Commissioner could not confirm if garda\u00ed will get this training. When Joanna Byrne submitted a parliamentary question to the Minister for justice, she was informed that her question was disallowed because he had no responsibility for this matter. It is absolutely abhorrent for him to claim he has no responsibility for this matter. For me and for the public in general, this is simply not good enough. I am demanding clarity from the Minister. I ask him to confirm if the pursuit of scramblers, e-bikes and scooters will be part of this training. It is unfathomable that this would not happen."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Claire Kerrane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Claire Kerrane We have two primary issues here. First is a family who need and very much deserve answers and, second, are the ongoing and very serious issues in An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na when it comes to protected disclosures. We are now many years on from the very brave stance that Maurice McCabe took. That \"Prime Time Investigates\" programme clearly shows us that we are not very far on, if at all, from that time. When speaking about an independent public inquiry, the Minister has said that we need the criminal proceedings to end and we need the inquest. However, it is important to be honest and clear. Neither the court case nor the appeal looked at the gun holster and I very much doubt that an inquest will either. I know the Horkan family have made that point. I presume they are not happy with an investigation being carried out by Fiosr\u00fa. Putting all that to one side, if a member of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na sees something wrong and flags it, there is a fear that the member will be removed from their role or pay a price for that. That was shown as clear as day in the \"Prime Time Investigates\" programme. There is something very wrong with a workplace where someone sees something wrong but cannot do the right thing by flagging it. I do not believe that Fiosr\u00fa will answer the questions on that. That is an issue for all of us and it is an issue for every single member of the public. We need to see more done on this and we need to see a lot more done in relation to protected disclosures."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh I challenge the Minister to find me one person who has made a protected disclosure and was allowed to continue in their job and flourish. I would challenge An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na but also on a wider government basis whether just one person was allowed to continue and flourish in their careers once they made a protected disclosure."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Kelly Hear, hear."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh When the Protected Disclosures Act was introduced, it was sold as legislation to protect people who speak up about wrongdoing. In its current application, all it is being used to do is to highlight and identify people who speak against wrongdoing. Once the person is identified, they can find themselves isolated, ostracised, discredited and indeed penalised in the most severe ways. In 2020, Margaret Loftus made a protected disclosure to Fiosr\u00fa about issues concerning Garda handling of cases of domestic abuse. This disclosure through a court order was handed to the organisation and to the very people she made the disclosure about before it was even investigated. That disclosure is currently at recommendation stage and is being sent to the Garda Commissioner in the very near future, yet, Margaret Loftus, the person who made the protected disclosure, had no entitlement to see those recommendations or even know if they were implemented. After sticking with a hellish process for six years, she will never know what even became of it. The fundamental purpose of protected disclosures should be to prevent wrongdoing, prevent harm and protect the public interest. Instead, many people who speak up feel it protects the institution first and the individuals second. The tragic death of Colm Horkan remains a stark reminder of what is at stake when concerns relating to public safety are not addressed effectively. Questions raised over equipment and risk management should always be examined with one objective over all others: preventing serious harm and saving lives. I support the Horkan family in their quest for a public inquiry. Any one of us who has lost a loved one in whatever circumstances wants to know the answer to the basic question: could it have been prevented? A whistleblower system should be judged by whether people can speak up without fear, whether risks are addressed and whether lessons are learned. A society that punishes those who speak the truth does not have a whistleblower protection system and we should stop pretending that we have. It has a warning sign for everyone else to stay quiet and to keep their heads down if they want to keep their job. In its current form our protected disclosures system is protecting the very institutions that should be held to account, not the person who highlights the wrongdoing. This is under the watch of the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, and he has to correct it. Successive Ministers for justice claiming that this is not under their remit, and that nobody looks here, is totally wrong. This has to be corrected here and now."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa We are back in the same place again. What do we expect for garda\u00ed? We should expect that they have the resources, the necessary tools and sufficient backup to be able to do the work they do, which is about protecting the wider community. We would expect the protected disclosures system to exist. If there are problems in An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, as with any other major organisation whose necessary work we need delivered, we need to be able to find them out and address them. What we do not need is what we have seen, namely, that those who have been brave enough to come forward and provide the necessary information have been let down badly by this Government. This is all about public safety. There are questions to be answered by the former justice Minister, Deputy McEntee, about providing information on a whistleblower directly to An Garda. I do not think anyone would think that this is a way to do business. We cannot forget the family of Colm Horkan. When I think of Colm Horkan, I also think of Adrian Donohoe and Tony Golden. These are garda\u00ed who have been killed carrying out their duty. What has the family of Colm Horkan looked for? It is unprecedented, but they want a public inquiry. In fairness, Deputy Carthy referred to a similar Fiosr\u00fa-type investigation and how it has failed the family of Shane O'Farrell. That is not good enough. We are failing garda\u00ed at this point in time. A family out there requires answers. It is necessary that the Minister does his part. I cannot see that anything other than a public investigation and inquiry is going to deliver. This is not good enough. We have been in this place too many times before. It is the same story as it was with Maurice McCabe, and we have not moved on."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Gary Gannon I first send my thoughts to the family of Detective Colm Horkan. I acknowledge Aont\u00fa for bringing forward the motion. It is incredibly important. Listening to the Minister's speech, something jumped out from it. He stated that on 27 February 2025, within his first month as Minister, he invoked section 102(5) of the Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na Act and referred the issues raised by Detective Superintendent O'Reilly to GSOC. Was that the right section? Section 102(5) concerns wrongdoing by Garda members. Section 102B refers to the Commissioner himself being investigated and requires Government consent. Why did the Minister choose section 102(5) and not the one actually within the remit? The Minister should check that. I have sat down with Garda whistleblowers. I have listened to their accounts. I have heard their frustrations and discussed the extraordinary effort required to simply get serious concerns properly examined. A thought that stays with me long after those meetings is if this is what happens to people who speak up, why would the next person bother? Why would somebody put their career, livelihood and peace of mind at risk if they believe an institution will turn its attention toward them rather than toward the wrongdoing they have reported? Before going further, I acknowledge those who have stepped forward. Some of them are in the Gallery. Brian O'Reilly and Donal Corcoran are people of immense courage and dignity. The Minister should meet them. We have to establish how concerns about Garda equipment were handled, how disclosures were investigated and whether those raising them were properly protected. From my meetings with the whistleblowers, I have come away deeply concerned that what has reached public attention is the tip of the iceberg. Their brave accounts raise many questions that go far beyond a single piece of equipment or a single disputed decision. They raise questions about who gets listened to, who gets protected and what happens when somebody challenges a person with authority. We cannot decide every allegation on the floor of this House, which is precisely why we need an independent inquiry with the power to establish the facts, but we can recognise the seriousness of what has been put before us. When people involved in the administration of the protected disclosures system itself raise concerns about its operations, the Government should ask how that happened and what it says about the safeguards we were told were in place. We have been here before. After the treatment of Maurice McCabe, nobody in political leadership can credibly say they did not understand the consequences of failing a Garda whistleblower. We know what institutional defensiveness can do. We know how damaging it is when a person reporting a problem comes to be treated as the problem, yet we are again hearing accounts of interference, of professional consequences and of concerns left completely unresolved. How many times must people come before us describing the same culture before we accept that legislation alone will not be enough? A reporting channel means very little if people cannot trust where the report will end up. A protection means very little if somebody has to spend years fighting to make it effective. This culture survives when political leadership accepts procedural assurances without demanding evidence that the system is working. Tackling this failure has to begin with accountability at ministerial level. The Minister, Deputy McEntee, should appear before this House or the justice committee to answer questions about her handling of these matters, as has been requested by the whistleblowers with whom I have sat. She stated that she followed the legislation and the advice provided to her. That position should be examined alongside decisions taken, the information available and concerns raised by the whistleblowers. What did the Minister know? When did she know it? What action followed? These are simple questions. Where a disclosure concerns senior Garda management, how is the independence of its handling assured? Where officials are briefing a Minister, what safeguards exist to identify any conflict of interest? Who checked that the information that reached the Minister was accurate and complete? Changing portfolios does not remove the obligation to account for decisions taken in office. The forthcoming review of protected disclosures legislation must also seek the participation of whistleblowers. Their experience has to shape its conclusion. For our part, we will continue to work with those who seek to expose the truth. What we are talking about here are people who we trust to stand on the wall. They are people of immense courage. We often talk about how lucky we are in this Chamber, because we want more garda\u00ed. We want people in the force. We have a good system of garda\u00ed who we want on our streets, but there is also a scenario where people who have raised issues, people of immense integrity, are clearly experiencing continued penalisation. That is not an accusation I make lightly. I stood several times over the last couple of months with Dr. Donal Corcoran and Detective Brian O'Reilly. They are people of huge dignity. As a result of their stance, they are now living on social welfare. That cannot be allowed to continue."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Kelly Hear, hear."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Gary Gannon The Minister and I often clash, but I do not doubt for a second that he is a decent person. What is happening to people who stepped forward - they go by the name of whistleblowers but they are actually incredible people - is wrong, and wrong is wrong. We can all talk about legislation and systems, but if the Minister stood in front of Donal or Brian, he could not help but see a system failing and come to a conclusion that this system, which was built perhaps ten years ago, was simply designed to fail because it is failing so consistently. The impact it is having on people's lives is devastating. These are people who were in uniform. I would not want anyone other than the people I have sat with in meeting rooms protecting this State and our communities. I have heard their testimonies and listened to their voices. These people have courage and dignity. They have been removed from the profession they were born to do. We should be unimaginably proud that Dr. Donal Corcoran and Detective Superintendent Brian O'Reilly are the people who are defending our communities. I can think of no better people. They stepped forward and did the right thing, but are now continuously being penalised. Is anybody in the Department or An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na investigating penalisation? That is a continual wrong. I ask the Minister to meet these individuals, hear their testimonies and investigate the continual penalisation. We want people to step forward and put their hands up. The stories and testimony we are hearing from the whistleblowers are enormous. We would not be able to investigate every single one of them in this Chamber. We need an independent investigation, not only to establish accountability but also to make things better for people whom we trust to serve our communities. My final request is that the Minister meet Dr. Corcoran and Detective Superintendent Brian O'Reilly and do something to stop the continued penalisation."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin Hayes","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Eoin Hayes I welcome the motion. I am glad to see wide Opposition support for this issue of protected disclosures. Whistleblowing in Ireland has a chequered history. As we have seen far too often, a deep tribalism can seep into institutions in this State, rather than an objective assessment of the facts. This can breed a culture of denial, cover-up and retribution. Whistleblowing takes great courage and perseverance, sometimes over many years. It can take a great toll on those who do it. In standing up for what is right, integrity and fairness, people are often treated wrongly, consistently undermined and deprived of any fair justice or process. Whispers ensue in institutions. People are moved around, power structures change and a culture of bullying can fester. That experience, as too many in this country are familiar with, takes an extreme toll on the whistleblower, their mental health and their families. The questions before us in this motion are very grave. There are allegations or insinuations of wrongdoing in the upper echelons of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. If what I have been told privately is true, it would send shock waves across the political system and across the country. It may yet threaten a Government. Our job as custodians of public integrity is to seek out the full truth, even if it is uncomfortable and leads us to difficult realisations about our country and those who are meant to protect and serve it. History has shown us that initial disclosures can merely mark the beginnings of revelations as deeper concerns, including criminality, emerge during subsequent investigations. I am disappointed the Government has chosen to oppose this motion and I want to call out two lines in its amendment which are worth emphasising to the general public. One line says: \"the Government is satisfied that there are robust procedures and protections for those who make disclosures\". From what we know about how past disclosures have been handled and from what I have heard privately about these cases, I do not see how any government could possibly be satisfied with the protected disclosure system or have confidence in it. The other line says: \"An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na have emphasised that ... all allegations made under the Protected Disclosures Acts to An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na are treated seriously, and examined for any potential disciplinary or criminal matters that may arise\". While I would like to believe that is true, the Government may rue the day it made that declaration. An investigation is required to establish exactly what happened with these disclosures and understand how seriously they were treated. If the truth emerges that there was any refusal to examine any disciplinary or criminal matters in An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, it will cause a political crisis this Government will not survive."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Kelly I thank Aont\u00fa for this timely motion. I also acknowledge and thank other Members of the House for coming on this journey with me. I have been at this for two years, as the Minister is well aware. It is very unusual that everybody in the Opposition is on the same page on this. That tells us how serious it is. What the Minister has announced today in relation to Fiosr\u00fa and the holsters is another layer of insult on injury for the Horkan family. I have spoken to them. They describe it as a nonsense. It is a complete nonsense, an attempt by the Government to kick this can down the road and get it off the agenda. The allegations of Luke Rochford were referred to GSOC. What happened? GSOC contacted Garda management and could not get co-operation. It then contacted Luke Rochford and told him it was discontinuing the investigation because it could not get co-operation. Now the Minister is referring it again. It is a joke. Here are the two holsters. Look at them lying in my hands. This is the leather; this is the stitching. That should be the Fiosr\u00fa investigation in one go. That was holster worn by Eddie Connell and this is the one worn by Colm Horkan. They are the exact same, and not fit for purpose. This did not even cover the back of the gun of Ed Connell. Read Mick Clifford's article if you do not want to believe me. They are dangerous and known to be defective. Senior garda\u00ed knew about these holsters and their defectiveness. Hundreds of garda\u00ed refused to use them and bought their own. Garda management knew but did not care; it only began caring after these two incidents. Garda leadership had been warned about it numerous times by Luke Rochford. The superintendent in the Garda college in Templemore had warned them, her staff had warned them and video footage from the firearms training unit had warned them. What happened? Nothing. Brian O'Reilly kept trying to warn that they be taken down after these incidents. What happened to Luke Rochford for bringing forward these issues? He got crucified, but he will have his day. He will have justice. His case has been stopped 30 times. It will never happen because An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na cannot afford for it to happen. I only have time to raise two issues with the Minister. First, why were these two holsters sent on two different pathways for investigation? This is the critical issue the Horkan family wants to know. After the Ed Connell incident, GSOC took primacy of the scene, GNTB provided forensic services to GSOC and the exhibits from the incident were delivered to GNTB for forensic examination. Subsequent forensic analysis of the holster identified significant defects. That is all clear. That investigation is done. On 17 June, after Colm Horkan was murdered, GNTB got to the scene, including Superintendent O'Reilly. They focused on the holster, given the concerns at the scene. Exhibits were collected, bagged and tagged, went to Forensic Science Ireland for DNA and fingerprint analysis, and should have been given over to the GNTB but never arrived. Why? That is the critical question in all this. In February 2024, three years later, the holster was given to two non-experts, non-ballisticians who did not have forensic analysis or meet ISO standards. Why? It is clear this was a deliberate action by Garda management and that is what the Minister should be focusing on. Why the two different pathways? Why the cover-up? It is a cover-up. That is why the family want the investigation. It is a critical question. Why bypass the only experts in An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na who are qualified to do this investigation? It will never be answered through the pathway the Minister has put forward. It can only be answered through an inquiry. The second question is how protected disclosures were managed by two Ministers, including the Minister for justice, Deputy O'Callaghan. Brian O'Reilly sent his protected disclosure to the Minister, Deputy McEntee, in September 2023. It impugned the Commissioner. The Minister sent it to the Office of the Protected Disclosures Commissioner. In October 2023, the OPDC set a statutory declaration that this be dealt with by the Secretary General of the Department of Justice. The Minister, Deputy McEntee, then directed the investigation be removed from the Secretary General and redirected to An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, thereby usurping the OPDC's statutory direction and revealing Brian O'Reilly's identity. In doing so, she acted without legal authority and directly interfered with a serious and significant protected disclosure. Since then, the Minister has argued - and she is now supported by the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan - that she did not reveal Brian O'Reilly's identity as his solicitor had already corresponded with Drew Harris. This fails to recognise that Brian O'Reilly's correspondence with her was completely separate. The cover letter states it is a protected disclosure in its own right. The confidentiality attached to this letter was completely breached by the Minister, Deputy McEntee. There is nothing in section 16 of the Protected Disclosures Act that gives the Minister legal authority to disclose that person's identity, even if the person she exposed him to is aware he has previously made protected disclosures. Additionally, despite the fact the current Minister has consistently said he cannot speak about protected disclosures, he amazingly has the capacity to vocalise aspects of Brian O'Reilly's protected disclosures. The Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, who is sitting there, has made public that he sent Brian O'Reilly's protected disclosure to Fiosr\u00fa when he came into office. He also alleges that Mr. O'Reilly has failed to engage. The Minister is completely misleading people by saying this. This is not accurate and is totally selective. It is dangerous territory for the Minister now - very dangerous territory. This is what really happened. Prior to the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, taking office on 17 January 2024, a Department official endeavoured to move Brian O'Reilly's protected disclosure out of the Department. They wanted to get rid of it before the Minister took office, really, despite the fact they had not statutory power to do so. Fourteen months after the Secretary General's appointment to investigate, Brian O'Reilly was told to go to Fiosr\u00fa and start again. He never provided any such consent. Despite this, on 27 February, the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, sent the disclosures to Fiosr\u00fa. This is a fatal error. The Minister has now also acted without legal authority. It means two Ministers have acted without Brian O'Reilly's consent or legal authority. What makes it worse is the Minister did not even tell Brian O'Reilly until March. For 16 months, Brian O'Reilly, whose protected disclosures had been statutorily directed for investigation by the OPDC to the Secretary General of the Department of Justice, was ignored by the same Secretary General, ignored by the Minister, Deputy McEntee, and ignored by the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan. He was given none of his statutory entitlements over that period of time or since. What is worse is that the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, deliberately sent it to Fiosr\u00fa under section 102(5) of the Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na Act despite knowing his protected disclosure related to the Garda Commissioner. However, it could not be investigated under this section. He should have done it under section 102B of the Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na Act but that would have meant being passed by Cabinet and the Minister was not willing to do that. Let me be clear: there was never any legal or moral obligation on Brian O'Reilly to engage in any of this with Fiosr\u00fa. The process was locked in time once the OPDC made its statutory appointment. Everything since then has been flawed. I am now clearly saying that the Ministers, Deputies McEntee and O'Callaghan, have both acted without legal authority and contrary to the interests of the disclosure, in this case, of Detective Superintendent Brian O'Reilly. The Taoiseach and T\u00e1naiste need to take note - there will be consequences. The Minister has dismissed the call for a public inquiry at this stage. He has made his decision in relation to Fiosr\u00fa. The family will not accept that. It has been described as \"nonsense\". Fiosr\u00fa and its predecessor GSOC have already failed in this. The Minister can dismiss the Opposition's call, collectively, for a public inquiry but he cannot dismiss the calls of the Horkan family whom he met last week. Why? It is because their brother, their son, was murdered and the equipment he was wearing was not right. This was warned of well in advance. It is also the cover-up afterwards. Now, both the Minister and the former Minister are impugned, as I just outlined, for their actions as Minister for justice. I said on 25 March that the issue of these holsters and protected disclosures would haunt the Ministers, Deputies McEntee and O'Callaghan, this Government and the previous Government. I can tell them now, today, that the nightmare is only beginning."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Darren O'Rourke) Before we move back to the Government, I remind Members that parliamentary privilege should be exercised in a responsible manner and Members should avoid making allegations against identifiable persons who are not in a position to respond. Members should also exercise particular care in their contributions and refrain from naming individuals, including any person who may have made a protected disclosure. I call the Minister, Deputy McEntee."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade (Deputy Helen McEntee) I begin by echoing what I think every person in this House has said today, namely, that Colm Horkan was an exemplar of public service and his contribution to serving and protecting this State will never be forgotten. The family of Detective Garda Colm Horkan suffered a devastating loss when he was murdered while on duty in Castlerea in 2020. Indeed, my first act as Minister for Justice in 2020 was to visit his colleagues and family following his murder and to pay my respects and tribute to him. I again offer my sincerest condolences to them. I also want to say that I am, as is everyone in this House, completely committed to a trusted and effective protected disclosure system. Any person who wishes to raise or make a protected disclosure should be confident that they can raise issues within their workplace or organisation, that this can be done confidentially and that they will be treated fairly. I have always, in my capacity as an elected representative and as Minister for Justice, complied with the protected disclosure legislation. Also as Minister for Justice, I introduced new measures to strengthen Garda accountability and oversight. I enacted legislation to establish a new and strengthened independent oversight body for An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, Fiosr\u00fa. I enhanced independent oversight of Garda management by establishing a new Garda board and I tasked the Garda audit committee with examining the appropriateness, effectiveness and efficiency of Garda protected disclosure procedures. These changes give the Garda board and audit committee important oversight roles in relation to the operation of the protected disclosure system in An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. Deputies will be aware that the Protected Disclosures Act precludes Ministers from discussing or acknowledging protected disclosures. This is to ensure the integrity of any investigation of a protected disclosure is upheld, to ensure the anonymity and safety of those who make protected disclosures and are subject to them and to ensure others are confident they can come forward into the future. However, in recent months, in particular following the airing of the RT\u00c9 programme, several claims have been made about me, including in this motion. I have sought legal advice and based on that legal advice, I will today outline the action I took in relation to one specific protected disclosure. I want to be clear. Of the four individuals features in the RT\u00c9 programme, one case is before the courts so I will not comment on that case. Two of the other people featured did not make protected disclosures to me or the Department, so I will not refer to them. In relation to the fourth person featured, Detective Superintendent Brian O'Reilly, a number of inaccurate and unsubstantiated allegations have been made about my handling of his protected disclosure in the Aont\u00fa motion today, by the Opposition and by some members of the media. For that reason, and on the basis that Detective Superintendent O'Reilly has asked that I speak about it, while I will not discuss the contents of the protected disclosure made by Detective Superintendent O'Reilly, I am going to lay out precisely the steps I took in handling it. On 20 September 2023, I received a protected disclosure from solicitors acting on behalf of Detective Superintendent O'Reilly. On the same date, his solicitor sent a more detailed account of the same matters directly to the Garda Commissioner and copied that correspondence to the Department of Justice and to me, as Minister. In the letter directly to me, Detective Superintendent O'Reilly's solicitors stated: \"Our client wishes to be informed of whether or not the Commissioner of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na has referred to your office the protected disclosures containing finer details, as made by our client.\" In the letter sent by Detective Superintendent O'Reilly's solicitor to the Garda Commissioner, it was stated: \"It is clear that our client has made protected disclosures relating to a number of matters.\" At no stage did I or my Department acknowledge the existence of or send the protected disclosure or any material relating to the protected disclosure to the Garda Commissioner and at no point have I engaged with the Garda Commissioner. The only instance where Detective Superintendent O'Reilly's identity was exposed to the Garda Commissioner was in letters from solicitors acting on behalf of Mr. O'Reilly. In accordance with the Protected Disclosures Act 2014, as amended, the Department of Justice referred the disclosure on 20 September 2023, the same day it was received, to the Office of the Protected Disclosures Commissioner for consideration. This was the appropriate approach. It is important to note again that in a subsequent letter to the Garda Commissioner which my Department was copied on, the solicitor representing Detective Superintendent O'Reilly stated: \"We note the referral by the Minister for Justice of our client's protected disclosure to the Office of the Protected Disclosures Commissioner.\" On 3 October 2023, the Office of the Protected Disclosures Commissioner referred the disclosure back to the Department of Justice. In doing so, the commissioner considered whether there was a prescribed person within the meaning of the Protected Disclosures Act and the Protected Disclosures Act 2014 (Disclosure to Prescribed Persons) Order 2020 to whom the disclosure could appropriately be sent. Having concluded that no such prescribed person could be identified, the OPDC also considered whether the Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na Ombudsman Commission was an appropriate recipient for the protected disclosure. It is important to highlight that the request from Mr. O'Reilly was that this was treated as a protected disclosure, not as a complaint. The OPDC noted that GSOC could not investigate the Garda Commissioner under section 102B of the Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na Act 2005 without authorisation from the Minister for Justice and the approval of Government. The OPDC therefore determined that the Secretary General of the Department of Justice was the appropriate recipient as another suitable person for the purpose of the Protected Disclosures Act. Under section 10E of the Act, the recipient of a disclosure is required to conduct an initial assessment and determine the most appropriate course of action. It should be noted at this point that in a letter to me, dated 13 October 2023, solicitors acting for Detective Superintendent O'Reilly wrote to the Department objecting to any investigation being conducted by the Secretary General. Detective Superintendent O'Reilly's solicitor said that the Secretary General \"is not the appropriate and proper person to investigate wrongdoing alleged by our client.\" In a later letter to me, his solicitor requested that Detective Superintendent O'Reilly's protected disclosure be referred by the Policing Authority or GSOC. It should be noted that while GSOC is a prescribed body under the Protected Disclosures Act, the Policing Authority is not. Following consideration of the disclosure, the Secretary General submitted an e-submission to me on 19 December setting out three options. The first was a referral to GSOC; however, the advice provided to me by the Department was that there was no legal basis on which to seek Government approval for a GSOC investigation of the Garda Commissioner as the disclosure did not identify specific acts or omissions by the Commissioner that could be investigated under section 102B. It is important to say at this point that a previous similar protected disclosure had been sent to GSOC having not met the requirements under section 102B, and it was not accepted by GSOC. I was advised that sending this protected disclosure to GSOC would have resulted in a similar outcome and delayed the process. The second option was that the Department itself would investigate the matter raised. The assessment was that this would amount to the Minister and the Department investigating An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, an approach for which there was no precedent and which risked encroaching upon the operational independence of the Garda Commissioner. Again, Detective Superintendent O'Reilly's solicitors had objected to the Secretary General investigating this issue. The third option was referral to the office of protected disclosures within An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. This option was recommended on the basis that there was an established process and recent precedent for dealing with disclosures through that office. Having considered that advice, I agreed with that recommendation. Accordingly, on 21 December 2023, the Department referred the protected disclosure, clearly marked as such, to the head of the office of protected disclosures within An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. Again, at no stage did I send this protected disclosure to the Garda Commissioner as the Aont\u00fa motion falsely claims. I worked on the basis, as any of us here would, that the head of the office of protected disclosures would treat this referral in accordance with the legislation. On 10 April 2024, the matter was referred back to the Department of justice by An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, that stated, upon receipt of separate advice, that several of the issues contained within the protected disclosure were assessed to fall outside its remit. Following further engagement with the Office of the Protected Disclosures Commissioner, the Department was advised that two options remained available. First, that with the consent of Detective Superintendent O'Reilly, the matters raised could be referred to GSOC as a complaint rather than as a protected disclosure; or second, that Detective Superintendent O'Reilly could be advised to make a protected disclosure directly to GSOC. A recommendation to write to Detective Superintendent O'Reilly outlining these options was approved by me on 15 January. The Department was subsequently informed that the solicitor was no longer acting on Mr. O'Reilly's behalf but that the solicitor would pass the correspondence on to him. As the Minister, Deputy O\u2019Callaghan, has set out in his speech, he subsequently referred the issues raised by Detective Superintendent O\u2019Reilly to GSOC as a complaint. To be very clear, the disclosure was referred to the head of the protected disclosure office within An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, having received the recommendation. At no point was it sent by me or the Department of justice to the Garda Commissioner. I have set out the facts in relation to the steps I took in response to the protected disclosure made by Detective Superintendent O\u2019Reilly. Every decision that I made, I made in the public interest. My objective at all times was to ensure truth and accountability, and fairness and safety for all involved. This should not distract from the tragedy that we are discussing today and that is the murder of Detective Colm Horkan. The loss of Detective Colm Horkan was devastating. I support any further measures that are now being taken to provide clarity on the matters discussed. I commend the countermotion to the House."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ken O'Flynn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ken-O'Flynn.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ken-O'Flynn.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ken O'Flynn Colm Horkan was murdered in 2020 while wearing a Garda holster provided to him by An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na from an equestrian saddlery in Kildare. It was provided not by a firearm specialist by from a saddlery; horse tack on the hip of an armed garda. This warning came first to us in 2019 via whistleblowers who warned Garda management that the holsters were dangerous. One week before Colm was murdered, a garda in the Israeli ambassador's residence suffered a life-changing injury when his pistol discharged. A senior garda alleged at the time that the holsters may have been to blame. How did the Horkan family learn of that? They learned of it not from the Minister's office, not from An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, but from a newspaper. They were promised an apology by the former Commissioner Drew Harris. We are still waiting for that apology to the family. Last Thursday, the Minister met the family and sat down with them. He said he will not commit to an inquiry. Instead, he has asked Fiosr\u00fa to investigate. Fiosr\u00fa, by the way, is the same body that was warned about the holsters in 2019. It is like the old saying, \"Ask my brother am I a liar?\" It does not make sense. I have come to note in this State that the crime is not about wrongdoing; the crime in this State is about telling the truth. We only need to ask Brian O'Reilly in the Gallery here, who warned about the holster too. In December 2023, the Department of justice apologised to two different Garda whistleblowers whose details were wrongly passed on, and promises were made by that Department that new checks and balances would be implemented and put in place immediately. Thirteen days later, the Department sent the Detective Superintendent Brian O'Reilly's protected disclosure straight back to An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, the very people on whom he was doing the whistleblowing. It does not make sense. Thirteen days is the shelf-life of the promises of the Department of justice. Let us now look at the ammunition. Faulty ammunition rounds made by an Italian company, which was willing to take them back four years earlier, instead stayed in circulation for over four years in the Garda response unit, the armed support unit and were carried every day by up to 1,500 to 2,000 members of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. This was faulty ammunition that can jam, can misfire and that could take a garda's life. Why was there no recall? It was because an internal report worried about the reputation of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. It did not worry about keeping people safe. It did not worry about the front-line garda\u00ed who were carrying this ammunition. It worried about garda reputation. It put reputation before lives. To add insult to injury, on top of that those set of bullets were destroyed later at a cost to this State of \u20ac160,000, despite the fact that the company was willing to take it back four years earlier. Let us look at the gun parts. Guns belonging to a private gun club in Kildare were brought to the Garda armoury in Dublin. They were repaired. The parts were imported under the licence that the then Minister for justice signed off in the belief that they were for Garda use. They were paid for by the taxpayer. The guns were repaired and they were driven back to the gun club in a private car belonging to a member of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. Two separate investigations have confirmed this. Now, we learn today that the DPP will not prosecute. That is the story of this country. Nobody pays and nobody is answerable. That is why we are calling for an inquiry today. Let us look at the two Garda helicopters that were ordered to the sum of \u20ac20 million that have never flown over Irish airspace and probably will never. This is not through bad luck or bad decisions but through stupidity and ignorance. We should follow those stories of holsters, ammunition, firearm stores and gun parts. Let us be fair about it; it all leads to one particular door. It leads to the door of Superintendent Liam White, who was responsible for the Garda firearms and responsible for procurement. Detective Superintendent O'Reilly has told the courts that the owner of the saddlery and Superintendent White are neighbours. I wonder has anyone asked the question as to whether they are both members of the particular gun club in Kildare. I suspect we might find a very interesting answer to that. It is about time that this superintendent and previous Commissioners are put under oath in public to give those answers and to tell the truth about things. The Minister said that it is not within his role to discuss such matters. I have a newsflash for him; he is the Minister for justice. I lost my confidence in the previous Minister for justice. I have told her that and I have been honest in this House. However, I am beginning to lost confidence in the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, as well. I believe him to be an honourable man. He can restore the confidence of this side of the House in him by putting this inquiry together and by making sure an inquiry with teeth examines this. We can bring the former Commissioner Drew Harris and Superintendent Liam White before us, it can all be discussed and everything can be out in the open. The Horkan family has waited six years. Colm Horkan gave his life to this State. At the very least, this State owes his family the truth."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Darren O'Rourke) I call on an Teachta T\u00f3ib\u00edn to conclude the debate."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn I am absolutely shocked by the Minister's response to this motion. The Minister has completely ignored the substance of the allegations that were made in this motion. It is as if the speech was actually written in a parallel universe. Ignoring allegations does not make them go away, or does it? Is that actually the modus operandi of the corruption that we see at the heart of senior garda\u00ed at the moment? The Minister is ignoring the allegations, not accepting them, stopping them, not allowing them get investigated and hoping they will go away but they are not going away. They are not going away for a number of reasons, most importantly because of the people behind what has happened in relation to this wrongdoing. These garda\u00ed and this family are not going to allow this just disappear and go away. Incredibly, another whistleblower at the heart of this crisis was arrested after blowing the whistle, and the State sought to prosecute that individual. I also put on record in the D\u00e1il today that a litany of mistakes were made by the Government and a litany of mistakes and wrongdoing were done by An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na in relation to this. There is clear evidence of that that I have put on the record of the D\u00e1il. There are grievous wrongs happening here. This is a grievous wrong to the family of Colm Horkan as it seeks to hide the truth from his family. A grievous wrong is being done to the Garda, and it sends a message to anybody in the force in the future to stay quiet, shut up and keep your head down. This virtually guarantees the dysfunction of the Garda management into the future and virtually guarantees that great wrongs will be done, possibly to the lives of individuals working in that force and possibly to civilians as well. The Minister's contribution here is a continuation of the corruption that led to this horrendous tragedy. Fiosr\u00fa is not the location for this investigation. GSOC, was told about the faulty holsters before the murder of Detective Horkan. GSOC did not take action at that time. GSOC cannot be seen as an independent arbiter of the truth in this issue."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Alan Kelly Hear, hear. It is impossible."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn The Minister admitted an investigation of Brian O'Reilly was sent to Fiosr\u00fa without his consent and contrary to the law. The Minister did not deal with the 108-page document and all the unanswered questions related to it. He did not deal with the question as to why they were shut down. He did not deal with the protected disclosure unit, which was shut down, an unprecedented action by any Government or organisation in the history of the State. He completely ignored the actions of the former Minister for justice, Deputy McEntee. He ignored the questions as to why the former Minister for justice sent a protected disclosure to the Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, the head of whom was Drew Harris, and why she publicised the name of the whistleblower. She started her contribution today by saying she has a responsibility to protect the anonymity of the whistleblowers and she herself publicised the names of the whistleblowers in the emails she sent. The fact that in his contribution the current Minister failed to address these issues breaks any confidence that any investigation he authorises will address these questions. The problem at the heart of this is that organisations punish whistleblowers to protect the rank-and-file individuals of those organisations. The Minister has also done that here today. At the heart of this situation is a grieving family, a family broken-hearted at the loss of a great man. Garda\u00ed have also lost their hard-working and honest colleague. The Minister has refused our demand for an independent investigation. It is one thing to do that to elected representatives here but for a Minister for justice to refuse the request of the family of a fallen garda for an investigation is a defining moment in the history of this Republic. I urge the Minister at this late stage to reverse from his damaging amendment. The moral weight on his shoulders today is immense. Forget about Aont\u00fa's request or that of any other political party here. Listen to the family's request and hold a full public, independent investigation into what happened to their loved one."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Darren O'Rourke) The division is deferred until the weekly division time this evening."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an D\u00e1il ar fionra\u00ed ar 11.44 a.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 12.02 p.m."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sitting suspended at 11.44 a.m. and resumed at 12.02 p.m."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Protected Disclosures Inquiry: Motion [Private Members]"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_10","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna \u00f3 Cheannair\u00ed - Leaders' Questions","counts":{"speechCount":62,"speakerCount":12},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_10","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maurice Quinlivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Deputies","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Liam Quaide","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle I welcome Margaret Loftus from Mayo who is here with Deputy Mary Lou McDonald."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Lou McDonald N\u00ed f\u00e9idir deireadh a chur leis an tseirbh\u00eds monat\u00f3ireachta CCTV i Luimneach. Is cosaint th\u00e1bhachtach \u00ed don phobal agus caithfidh an Rialtas lean\u00faint ar aghaidh ag cur an maoini\u00fa buan at\u00e1 ag teast\u00e1il ar f\u00e1il chun an tseirbh\u00eds r\u00edth\u00e1bhachtach seo a choime\u00e1d ar oscailt. The country is still reeling from the horrific murders of four members of the English family, including two precious young children, in a petrol bomb attack on their home last month. This catastrophic and barbaric incident in Waterford put focus on the devastating consequences of violent organised crime and the escalating scourge of drug debt intimidation. In the early hours of yesterday morning, five adults and two children were rushed to hospital following yet another arson attack on a family home, this time here in Dublin. Families are held to ransom by drug gangs through threats, extortion and violence. They live every day with a sense of fear in communities across Ireland. There is anger that Government is not responding with force or purpose to keep communities safe. Limerick has suffered the torment, violence and consequences of organised drug crime and drug debt intimidation. The community spent decades working to overcome this scourge. Limerick understands how investing in community safety can really turn the tide, yet as communities look to Government for greater support and protection, it provides the exact opposite. It removes funding for one of Limerick's most important and most successful community protection services. The Limerick CCTV monitoring service was established in response to the violence that plagued communities. It monitors hundreds of cameras across the city and county. It is a vital resource for An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na and for the community. It prevents crime and allows for incidents to be responded to. It is a proven and highly successful initiative that has taken years of work to develop. It is at the very core of Limerick's safety infrastructure. The service faces a funding shortfall of approximately \u20ac660,000 for 2027. The Department of local government is cutting the funding it has provided for years. The Department of justice refuses to take on funding responsibility. As things stand, just two days before Christmas, the doors will shut, hundreds of cameras will shut down and this vital crime prevention service will be lost to the people of Limerick. The Taoiseach should make no mistake; the big winner here will be the organised crime gangs that are seeking any opportunity to reassert themselves. Stripping the people of Limerick of this vital community safety service is a dangerous and disgraceful dereliction of the Government's duty. The Government has funded Limerick's CCTV monitoring service for decades. It must continue to fund it. There can be no excuses. We need a crystal clear commitment from the Taoiseach today. Does he accept that the closure of Limerick's CCTV service would be devastating? Does he accept that it cannot happen? Does he accept that the Government has a responsibility to provide the funding to keep it open? Will he now intervene directly and guarantee the \u20ac660,000 required to keep this service operational for 2027? Furthermore, will he commit to establishing a permanent multi-annual funding arrangement for this community's safety?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach T\u00e1 gach iarracht \u00e1 d\u00e9anamh ag an Rialtas maidir leis an m\u00e9id d\u00fanmharaithe agus for\u00e9igin at\u00e1 ar si\u00fal ar fud na t\u00edre ag daoine \u00e1irithe. T\u00e1 n\u00edos m\u00f3 \u00e1iseanna agus airgid curtha ar f\u00e1il ar\u00eds i mbliana don Roinn dl\u00ed agus cirt agus do na Ranna eile chun pobal na t\u00edre a choime\u00e1d sl\u00e1n. N\u00edl aon amhras ach go bhfuil br\u00fa ar dhaoine agus go bhfuil deacrachta\u00ed agus d\u00fashl\u00e1in faoi leith ann. People are extremely angry, frustrated and shocked at the level of recklessness with which some criminals, particularly those involved in the area of drugs, behave in murdering, injuring and intimidating people and in endeavouring to undermine cohesion within communities. The Government is very clear that there will be no tolerance of that kind of behaviour. As the Deputy will know, An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na implements a national anti-drugs strategy through Operation Tara. The focus of that operation is to disrupt, dismantle and prosecute drug trafficking networks at the local, national and international levels. The Garda National Drugs and Organised Crime Bureau leads in tackling all forms of drug trafficking and the supply of illicit drugs in Ireland. The consumption of drugs is a societal issue. It is far more widespread than it should be. There is an onus on all those who take drugs to realise that there is a very sordid, murderous and violent background to the provision and supply of drugs in our society. We have initiatives such as Operation F\u00f3gra, the drug-related intimidation reporting programme, and the Drug Related Intimidation and Violence engagement, DRIVE, programme, which is a national inter-agency initiative funded by the Departments of Health and justice. An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na and the Minister for justice are extremely focused on dealing with the levels of intimidation that certain drug criminals are engaging in. The DRIVE programme brings together law enforcement, health services, social services and community organisations to address drug-related intimidation through a co-ordinated and victim-centred approach. Since its launch, more than 800 individuals have received training across 24 drug and alcohol task force areas. The Deputy raised the issue of the CCTV system in Limerick. She indicated that it has been in operation for quite a number of years now."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Lou McDonald It is decades."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach Exactly. At national level, there has been no pulling back from funding CCTV-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maurice Quinlivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Maurice Quinlivan There has."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Conor Sheehan There has."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Lou McDonald You are closing it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I can look at the specifics of the case but, on the \u20ac660,000, in my view, it is within the remit of the local authority and others to ensure that does not happen by Christmas. Funding to Government Departments, local authorities and across the board has now increased. CCTV systems have been in place for a long time and are included in the base funding allocations. There should not be an issue in respect of it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Lou McDonald Last year, the local authority bailed this service out but the reality is that for all of the rhetoric, words, tea and sympathy that the Taoiseach will offer to communities in Waterford, Limerick and elsewhere, he is not serious about resourcing communities and community safety. It is beyond shocking and scandalous that the Limerick CCTV service, which has been so successful and has kept communities that have really suffered safe for so long, will be shut down for the sum of \u20ac660,000, yet that is what the community is facing two days before Christmas. Will the Taoiseach make it clear that he is intervening in this and that he will speak to the Departments, exercise his authority and make sure that Limerick, the community and people are not left at the hands of violence and intimidation-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle The Taoiseach will respond."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Lou McDonald -----because the Government could not come up with \u20ac660,000?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Deputies","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputies Hear, hear."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach The Government is supporting community safety very strongly. The community safety fund, for example, plays a key role in helping communities become more resilient to crime, and an allocation of \u20ac4.84 million was recently distributed through the community safety fund to 56 community safety projects nationwide. Invariably, on a whole range of issues, local authorities will make the case for additional funding and invariably it will come to the floor of this House, and I will be asked to intervene in every local authority area and on every issue. I will get the backdrop to this, but let us be very clear too that \u20ac660,000 is a very realisable sum of sum of money-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Lou McDonald Of course it is. That is the point."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach -----and there is no need for anything to close by Christmas."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Lou McDonald Is the Taoiseach committing to it not closing?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Liam Quaide","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Liam Quaide Two weeks ago, I asked the Taoiseach to stand up for Cork University Hospital, CUH, and end the unworkable and unsafe recruitment restrictions that are undermining patient care. The Taoiseach responded with barely controlled outrage. He said to me, \"You have some nerve\". I have reflected since on why the Taoiseach had that reaction. I do not doubt his personal and political attachment to CUH. As Minister for Health, he oversaw major investment there. I have my own connection with the hospital. The legendary cardiac surgeon Aonghus O'Donnell treated my father and extended his life by many years. My children were born in the maternity hospital. I worked in CUH as a psychologist. Nobody questions the Taoiseach's attachment to CUH, but it is fair to question how in touch he is with what is happening there now because increasingly he looks detached, weak and defensive on this issue. He is unwilling to challenge a Minister for Health who discredits CUH at every opportunity and is using selective recruitment and trolley figures stripped of context about demand, complexity and long-standing staffing and bed shortages. Rather than challenging the Minister, the Taoiseach is providing her with political cover. It is relatively easy to scapegoat a hospital CEO who has sounded the alarm about what is happening at CUH, but it is much harder when nine clinical directors reinforce her account, writing to the Taoiseach about the Minister's misrepresentation of CUH, the damage to staff morale, recruitment and retention, and the need for an independent staffing assessment. I have received an extremely disturbing account of what happened at CUH last Thursday and Friday. With emergency capacity overwhelmed, cancer operations were cancelled at short notice. Women admitted for mastectomies, some already in hospital gowns, were sent home. Colon, brain and prostate cancer operations were also cancelled. Imagine the distress of those patients. These are the consequences of the Minister's hardline attitude to CUH and her refusal to reckon with the reality of staffing shortages and overcrowding. The Government's plan has identified CUH as having the country's largest adult inpatient and critical care bed deficit. The hospital's CEO and clinical directors have urgently sought 172 priority posts. According to the clinical directors' letter to the Taoiseach last week, only seven had been approved, yet the Minister berates CUH for underperforming while the Government restricts recruitment. The Taoiseach helped develop this hospital and now he is standing by while the Minister repeatedly undermines it. The Taoiseach told me that I had \"some nerve\" for asking him to stand up for CUH. It takes considerably more nerve to dismiss nine clinical directors while defending a Minister publicly attacking their hospital and ours. Patient safety is at risk. Will the Taoiseach meet the CEO and clinical directors, commission an independent staffing assessment, and immediately approve the outstanding priority posts?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach First of all, I want to acknowledge the tremendous work being done and that has been done by people working in Cork University Hospital over many years providing a strong and exceptional service to the people of the region. My objective and aim is to ensure that the hospital can work effectively and smoothly but we need to establish some fundamentals. The Deputy used the phrase \"scapegoating the CEO\" and I know the Deputy issued statements last week and yesterday in respect of a certain account of a meeting. I made a statement yesterday that this account was false and I would appreciate it if the Deputy accepted that statement. The HSE should clarify things and give the background to the entirety of that situation. My understanding is that the regional executive officer, REO, is very clear that at no stage did he make any reference to instructions from the Taoiseach's office or anybody from the Taoiseach's office. I want that to be clear because false assertions were made about my office. I want to absolutely clear about that. Second, all is not well at CUH. That is very clear to me for different reasons but equally, as the Deputy said, he has been involved in the hospital, and I have been involved in supporting it for many years. Prior to the formation of the HSE, it was a Southern Health Board hospital. It has always been an integrated part of the public health acute hospital system in the Cork area. It still is now within the HSE. Whatever way these issues are going to get resolved, it has to be within that structure. It is a HSE hospital. It is not outside the HSE. It has got to work through the structures within the HSE. There cannot be alternative pathways and I will not be overriding the HSE. I will not be overriding the Minister in respect of this. I want to see a resolution of the issue, but trying to go directly over the head of the Minister either by meeting clinicians or whatever will not work. That is not the pathway to resolving these issues, nor is presenting inaccurate and untrue accounts of meetings people had locally. That is not a good way to do business either. I want to be very clear about that. In terms of the safety issue, and I do believe that CUH, the Mercy, South Infirmary, Victoria, Mallow and Bantry all have to be looked at as an integrated public hospital service that complement each other and provide a service to the public and patients, there has been significant investment in CUH. I outlined it yesterday. It has gone from about \u20ac300 million to about \u20ac600 million between 2019 and 2025. The staffing has increased significantly."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Deputy Quaide to respond."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I do not think it is feasible that you would have an independent assessment-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle The Taoiseach will be back in."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach -----of every single hospital. If you do it for one hospital, the next hospital will want it. That is not the way to do it either. I will come back to it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Liam Quaide","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Liam Quaide The Taoiseach is not standing up for CUH. He is falling back on the same lines the Minister spins to deny the reality of what is happening there. The nine clinical directors who wrote to the Taoiseach have laid out that reality in stark terms: two CT scanners closed because of staffing shortages, patients waiting four weeks for essential access procedures for cancer treatment, 20 neuro-rehabilitation beds in Blarney unable to open because the Minister will not fund the staff, and now we are hearing of cancer operations cancelled and patients sent home at the last minute. This is a matter of life or death for some patients. We know that prolonged emergency department delays expose patients to serious harm and increased risk of death. The Taoiseach cannot keep defending the Minister while ignoring these warnings from senior clinicians. Will the Taoiseach intervene now, lift these recruitment restrictions and put patient safety ahead of defending the Minister?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach Patient safety is paramount. What happened in respect of those cancer patients should not have happened, but the hospital needs to be managed as well."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Liam Quaide","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Liam Quaide It does not have the staff."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach By that I mean, in terms of the scanners, for example-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Liam Quaide","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Liam Quaide It does not have the staff."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach Sorry, the staff has increased dramatically over the last number of years."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Liam Quaide","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Liam Quaide Did the Taoiseach read the letter that was sent to him?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Deputy, you were not to interrupt."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I did not interrupt the Deputy and I allowed him to ask the question. I respectfully ask him to allow me to answer. We went up 41% in staff between 2019 and 2025, from 3,456 to 4,870. That is what I am told and this year, we went from 4,870 to 5,194, and also-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy P\u00e1draig Rice We need an independent assessment."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Deputy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach This is CUH. Also, CUH recruited more than any other hospital in 2026. That is the background to it. HIQA is going into the hospital. The chief clinical officer, Colm Henry, has visited the hospital again recently in terms of patient safety."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Liam Quaide","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Liam Quaide That is not independent."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach Patient safety is paramount in respect of any hospital and also in the context of CUH. It has to be."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle I remind Deputies that each Member of the House, regardless of which side, has the opportunity and right to speak and be heard without interruption."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ivana Bacik Before I begin, my thoughts are with the seven people impacted by the terrible arson attack off Clanbrassil Street yesterday. I commend the first responders who took brave action and I send my very best wishes to those still recovering in hospital. Turning to better news, following the recent great election results in Brazil and Serbia, the Democrat surge in the US mid-terms last night has given us all reason to hope again. American voters have pushed back against Trump\u2019s warmongering, his attacks on civil rights and his economic policies that back billionaires over working people. It is now up to the Democrats in congress and the senate to take on the mammoth task of tempering Trump\u2019s worst tantrums before he and his acolytes do any more damage to the world. It is good to see those acolytes damaged by these elections. Indeed, to quote his occasional boss and long-time frenemy, Donald Trump, the perennial \u201cbullshit artist\u201d Elon Musk has wasted half a billion dollars in these elections. Despite this, he was not able to buy the race in Texas or elsewhere. There is a lesson for the Taoiseach following the US results too. American voters have swung decidedly against tech oligarchs like Musk and against data centres. They are questioning the power of the AI technology furrowing deeper and deeper into everyday life. They are questioning how far from fulfilling its potential for good, AI is threatening democracies, economies and our planet. It is generating mass-scale sexual abuse imagery of the kind my colleague, Deputy Alan Kelly, hopes to tackle with our new Labour Party Bill amending Coco\u2019s Law to be heard here tomorrow. Private sector bosses are citing alleged AI productivity gains in cutting jobs and freezing recruitment of our graduates and young people. Households plagued by the cost of living are watching data centres moving into their communities and further driving up bills. Those factors undoubtedly swung voters against Trump in the US but the same concerns exist here in Ireland. Our country is home to nearly 150 data centres already although the numbers are difficult to establish due to lack of transparency. We know that nearly a quarter of our electricity goes to data centres, which is the highest per capita rate in the world. Energy costs are soaring. The ESB announced today it will hike the price of EV charging. One in seven households are already in arrears on their electricity bills; a shocking increase of more than 60% in just three years. The Taoiseach cites foreign wars as the reason for this but data centres are directly driving prices up. Friends of the Earth estimates that data centres added more than \u20ac715 million to household electricity bills nationally and people are feeling the pinch. On Saturday, we will have the first national protest against data centre expansion. That is one of many taking place across Europe on the same day. However, in June, the Government voted against our Labour Party motion to halt construction of new data centres and levy existing data centre operators. When will the Taoiseach wake up and smell the coffee? When will he act to curb the power of tech oligarchs and end unsustainable data centre growth?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I appreciate the Deputy's observations on the US mid-term elections. Many people will analyse and study the trends and factors underpinning that change. From my initial reading of accounts, I would have thought the war in Iran was a real factor in terms of the consideration of American voters and the high prices and inflation in the US for a number of reasons. Any anecdotal interviews all refer to the high prices. I am not so sure you can neatly characterise the election as just one area around technology and oligarchs."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Conor Sheehan We are not."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy George Lawlor The foreign wars."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I sound a note of caution in terms of how one interprets the outcome of any given election. That is a matter for America and the people of America. The people have given their verdict in these mid-term elections. They have voted for the various candidates in the various races. From our perspective, the situation between the United States and Europe is much different. We have an AI Act in Europe, for example, which regulates AI. In fact, US authorities and others would criticise Europe for what it terms over-regulation. I do not think we are over-regulated but we are regulated. We should acknowledge that and not give the impression we are not. On the digital side, we also did the Digital Services Act and Digital Markets Act. Both represent a very substantial edifice of the regulation of the digital world, which the Deputy should acknowledge, that is not present in the US. You cannot compare like with like in respect of European regulatory frameworks vis-\u00e0-vis the US, China or other areas of the world. In Ireland, we have established our own structures and powers to support safe, transparent and responsible AI. The Deputy also referenced data centres. Again, we have a stronger regulatory framework governing the construction of data centres than elsewhere and particularly than the United States. How many data centres were connected to the grid in the last six or seven years?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle That is rhetorical."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach Yes, it is. I thank the Ceann Comhairle. We need a proper analysis of this with less heat and less emotion. There was literally a de facto moratorium on data centres from 2020 onwards. You have to go to before 2020 and I think there were only one or two connections to the grid. Prior to 2018 or 2017, there was a very substantial increase in data centres in the country. Relative to other countries, we do not have heavy industry or other large energy users. I would be interested to know if the Deputy thinks we should just abandon AI altogether. What is the ultimate objective she is putting forward in terms of how we should approach it?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ivana Bacik I absolutely agree with the Taoiseach. There were multiple factors in the US elections and there is no doubt Trump's disastrous war in Iran played a huge part in the Democrat surge and people turning against him. I acknowledged that in my opening remarks. I know the Taoiseach watched these elections closely and that he will be aware the proliferation of data centres played a significant role, particularly in states like Michigan. People really stood out against Trump's policies on AI and against tech oligarchs. Of course, we can harness the power of AI for good. Of course, there is such a thing as ethical tech. It is really important that we speak up for that. I agree with the Taoiseach about the different context here and strong EU frameworks and regulation. However, that makes it all the more extraordinary that the Government voted against our Labour Party proposals in June to provide better regulation of data centres. Our Deputy, Ciar\u00e1n Ahern, put forward sensible proposals for regulation to ensure greater transparency. One of the issues the Taoiseach mentioned himself is a simple lack of knowledge about figures and how many data centres are operating. Just one in six are apparently submitting data to the EU energy efficiency directive, according to Friends of the Earth. There is a huge gap here in our knowledge and, therefore, a gap in regulation. Meanwhile, energy costs are soaring and being driven up causing real distress to households across the country."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I question the Friends of the Earth assessments. Some would as well. The organisation itself questions it as well in that the authors acknowledge it has limitations and is \"extremely difficult to predict with any certainty\". We will park that for a moment. The digital economy is important to Ireland. I presume the Deputy acknowledges that. It is important globally too. In fact, the position in Europe and elsewhere was that this era and the era to come is a digital and green era in terms of going to net zero and so on. The new large energy user action plan, LEAP, which was published only in January of this year, moves us to a more plan-led system in terms of data centres and greater certainty for people all round, reinforced by unprecedented grid investment. The criteria set out by the CRU are strong and stringent in respect of seeking new connections to the electricity system. That is the reality of it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard O'Donoghue I welcome Independent Ireland Councillor Noel Thomas who in the Visitors Gallery today, along with Kyle Lohan. Kyle is 16 and he is on transition year work placement. I thank him for all the work he has done for Independent Ireland at 16 years of age. He has knocked on every door in Galway in the previous by-election and every other election to date. I thank him and acknowledge him for that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle He is welcome to D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard O'Donoghue Today, I have to talk to the Taoiseach about An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na and our new Garda station in Newcastle West. The fears I am hearing from An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na regarding our new station in Newcastle West is that there are not enough garda\u00ed to put into it. The Government's proposal is to get to 15,000 garda\u00ed. To be honest, I think we need 15,000 more. We have a population now hitting 6 million and criminal levels are at an all-time high. In the parishes surrounding me, there were 16 robberies in two days and in the parishes adjoining them, 12 robberies were recorded in one place and 14 in another place, all of them done by criminal gangs. I was targeted last Friday when the keys of one vehicle, which were locked into a solid box, were taken, equipment worth \u20ac1,000 belonging to a carpenter was stolen and the lock was pulled off another van. We have the criminals, members of a well-known criminal gang, on CCTV, coming in and doing their work. They were gone within eight minutes. Garda\u00ed need cameras with registration recognition technology in places where there are criminal gangs. If cars belong to criminal gangs are in an area, the Garda would then be notified automatically. That can be done. We have had cameras turned off in Kilmallock and Croom for data protection reasons. People who are doing nothing wrong should not be worried about a camera that is there to protect good people against criminals. Repeat criminals are being brought to court multiple times and left off. There is no place to put them or hold them, so what does the Government do? It lets them back out and they do the same thing over and over again. Garda resources are being used to build a case against them and by the time the Garda builds a case, they are only given a slap on the wrist. It is a case of \"Out you go to do it again\" and within a week, they are in with garda\u00ed again. It is a waste of resources."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I also welcome the young 16-year-old, Kyle Lohan, to the House. I commend his interest in politics, and I advise him to keep an open mind into the future-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard O'Donoghue He is with the best party possible."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach -----as I did when I was 16 years of age. He is welcome to the House."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard O'Donoghue Do not forget Councillor Noel Thomas."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle The Taoiseach, without interruption, please."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Conor Sheehan Sure you might get him back."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach This is a new device, where Deputies bring their aspiring candidates into the House to get them mentioned."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Conor Sheehan He is really one of yours."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Rory Hearne He is indeed."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach There has been very consistent recruitment of garda\u00ed in the past two years. We had a significant setback during Covid, with the closure of Templemore and so on. However, we should reach about 15,000 in the near future. At the end of August, the figure was about 14,600 and we have had a further attestation of 207 recently. I think we will make the 15,000 figure by the end of the year. We then want to go higher than that because there are also retirements, which we acknowledge. There are about 3,616 additional Garda staff who work alongside the garda\u00ed. That has enabled about 900 garda\u00ed to be freed up for front-line duties. We have made changes to the Garda trainee recruitment process, through an increased recruitment age and training allowance, shortened recruitment timeframes and reform of the physical competency test, construction of the assessment centre, approaches to elements of recruitment and regular recruitment competitions. There is healthy interest in joining An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, which is positive. As regards the Garda station, I presume the Deputy welcomes the investment into Newcastle West, which is significant. With this recruitment, we will be in a position to staff the station. The Commissioner has been progressively allocating additional garda\u00ed, first to cities like Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Waterford and so on, and then to others. We have to get them out to rural Ireland, and the Minister for justice is very conscious of that. We will endeavour to get garda\u00ed to west Limerick as well. We also note the passing of the late former Minister, Gerry Collins, who was a household name in Abbeyfeale and west Limerick more generally, and whose funeral is tomorrow. He was a former Minister for Justice. We are very conscious of the needs in the area. On criminal gangs, I regret what has happened in the Deputy's own situation, which he has articulated to the House, as well as the other robberies he referenced. They will be convicted and will not be left out again if they are well-known criminal gangs. Garda\u00ed use cameras and information provided by the public to prosecute these people. They need to be prosecuted and brought to justice."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard O'Donoghue I also extend my sympathies to the family of former Minister, Gerry Collins, who will be laid to rest tomorrow in Abbeyfeale. I acknowledge everyone in politics and the contributions they make. We had a justice Minister in County Limerick, which covers east and west Limerick. All the criminal gangs know to target rural areas. All the Garda presence, as the Taoiseach just mentioned, is being put into Dublin city, Cork city and Limerick city. It is almost an hour and 40 minutes from one end of my constituency to the other. That is how far it is. We need Garda resources because criminals now know it is easy pickings. I welcome the Garda resources, the technology and the extra recruitment of garda\u00ed, but the Government needs to stop putting all the garda\u00ed into the cities. When you have a lot of people in one area, you can maintain them in it. However, in scattered places in rural Ireland, including rural Limerick, we deserve the same protection as people have in the cities. I would like to see that change."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach There are garda\u00ed being provided to rural Ireland, and there will be more allocated to rural Ireland as we continue to ramp up and get recruits into and out of Templemore in the time period. We are also investing in prisons, with close to \u20ac500 million. We want to create about 1,500 more spaces and we need to do this by 2031. It is the largest ever building programme in the prison estate. Some people are objecting to it but we have to drive ahead. The Deputy is correct in respect of the need. If someone is convicted, they do their time. That has to be the objective. In respect of technology, this Government has provided the technology required by An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. The previous Government had a different composition and others did not agree with giving garda\u00ed the technology they needed to identify and convict criminals. As far as this Government is concerned, we will provide the technology and resources to procure that technology to An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na because we have to stand behind it in facing up to this criminal element."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna \u00f3 Cheannair\u00ed - Leaders' Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_11","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna \u00f3 na Comhalta\u00ed Eile - Other Members' Questions","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_11","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Shay Brennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Shay-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Shay-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Shay Brennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Shay-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Shay-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Shay Brennan I raise the issue of how we protect and grow our successful open trading economy. The United States and the European Union remain our most important partners, but we need to consider more seriously how we diversify because too much rests on too few markets, sectors and companies. On markets, more than \u20ac4 in every \u20ac10 of our goods exports are earned in the United States. On sectors, more than half those goods are pharmaceuticals, and almost \u20ac6 in \u20ac10 of our service exports come from the IT sector. With companies, a handful of firms pay close to half our corporation tax. The companies behind those numbers have been very good for Ireland, and long may they stay, but it is a lot of eggs in very few baskets. Recently, in my constituency, I addressed a Hong Kong business delegation in Sandyford and a Yorkshire Chamber delegation in Clonskeagh. Yorkshire alone has as many people as Ireland, so even in markets we think we know, there is room to grow and diversify away from the main cities and established trading routes. Both these groups found their own way to us. Imagine what we would find if we went looking ourselves proactively. The difficulty, as I see it, is how we incentivise our agencies. It is always going to be easier to find the next dollar, job or company out of Texas or California, and we should keep prospecting there, but diversification means looking beyond the next dollar. This will not happen unless we give the relevant agencies the mandate and resources to do it. South Korea is the clearest example. As one of the world's 15 largest economies, it trains its biopharma workforce on the model of Ireland's National Institute for Bioprocessing Research and Training, NIBRT, which is based in Mount Merrion in my constituency. The Taoiseach will recall he was instrumental in bringing NIBRT about when he was Minister for enterprise in 2025. The Korean version, K-NIBRT, trained over 3,500 people there last year, all on UCD- and Irish-branded material. Every one of those newly qualified professionals working in cutting-edge industry knows and trusts Irish expertise as a result. ICON, which is headquartered in Leopardstown, helped Korea grow one of the busiest clinical trial sectors in the world. Korea has one in seven of the world's medicines in development, and they will need a home in Europe. Yet in Seoul, I found just one IDA officer and one Enterprise Ireland officer. Korea imports almost half a million tonnes of beef a year. Last year, we sold it only 358 tonnes, and the Bord Bia post remains vacant. Korea is not unique. Similar opportunity gaps exist across south-east Asia, India, the Gulf, and Latin America. Se\u00e1n Lemass opened Ireland to the world. The opportunity today to double down on this is enormous. Building up our agencies' presence in these markets is a relatively small investment for outsize returns and a stronger, more resilient economy. Will the Government act, rather than waiting, to fill those gaps?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I thank the Deputy for raising in a very informed and insightful way the issues of Ireland's global footprint, the presence of our enterprise agencies in certain key markets and the need to expand that presence in markets, particularly in countries like South Korea. I agree with the basic import and substance of what the Deputy said. We have had Global Ireland 2025, which has been particularly impactful. We have expanded our diplomatic footprint significantly by opening 27 new missions since 2018. The final two missions, the consulates general in Malaga and Melbourne, opened this year. That enabled us to take a more strategic approach to global relations, to better weather the impacts of Brexit and then to deal with the Covid pandemic and Russia's illegal war on Ukraine and so on. We also developed a more proactive team Ireland approach, reflected in the Ireland House model. That will be key. I opened a flagship of that model in Tokyo, during my visit to Japan last year. I saw what a wonderful resource that is for the country and our enterprises. We now have 20 Ireland Houses overseas and we expect this to increase to 22 by the end of 2027 or early 2028. We want to expand the model with new Ireland Houses in London, Toronto, Madrid and so forth. We also need to plan for the next strategy, to 2040. The Presidency of the EU takes up time but I want the next strategy, Global Ireland 2040, ready to be launched in the first half of next year. We need to do that and I will be working with the Department of foreign affairs and my own team to make sure it happens. The Deputy made a fair point about market diversification. The key markets have been the UK, North America, including Canada, and areas of Asia. We have good relations with China. Twenty years ago, I was on a trade mission to South Korea. I take the Deputy's point that our presence is not good enough in South Korea. Ultimately, we need an Ireland House there. Enterprise Ireland in particular needs to be there. IDA Ireland needs to have a stronger team there. A review has been completed and resources will be increased and have increased in South Korea from the IDA perspective. The Enterprise Ireland review is expected to conclude in quarter 4 of 2026. I take the Deputy's point on Bord Bia. The footprint review, aligned with the market prioritisation framework, is still under review with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. Research Ireland does have dedicated overseas staff and they are not necessarily needed. South Korea is a market of growing strategic importance. The IDA has strengthened its presence in Seoul with a new chief executive in place since late last year, but we need more."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Shay Brennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Shay-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Shay-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Shay Brennan I thank the Taoiseach for the reply. I appreciate him confirming the delivery of the Global Ireland 2040 report. An international trade and investment strategy depends on having people on the ground to deliver it. At the moment, nobody outside those agencies can really see where those people are. Will the Government publish the staffing and targets of the IDA, Enterprise Ireland and Bord Bia on a market-by-market basis every year or indeed every quarter, so that we can see whether the effort is actually following the strategy? If we are serious about new markets, we need to invest and we need to see and measure that investment. Will the Taoiseach ask those three agencies to direct their focus, sooner rather than later, on Seoul and similar markets, so that, rather than reacting to each lead as it comes in, we have the resources there to make the most of every opportunity in markets like these?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I will. They should be transparent in that regard. For example, Bord Bia has about 50 people working in offices overseas. The numbers vary, with six in China, six in France, three in Germany and four in Singapore, but, to the Deputy's point, I do not think there are any in Seoul. I was very impressed with Bord Bia in China when I visited at the beginning of the year. Irish people were communicating about Irish food products in Mandarin to Chinese media, which was very impressive. We have had a debate this morning on technology. To me, Seoul in South Korea is one of the big capitals for advanced technologies. The IDA has had some success with companies coming to Ireland to work on battery storage for supporting renewable energy. There are very important advanced technologies to be understood and to have their presence in terms of the tasks and challenges we face in technological advancement and investment in renewables."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna \u00f3 na Comhalta\u00ed Eile - Other Members' Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_12","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Pholasa\u00ed n\u00f3 ar Reachta\u00edocht - Questions on Policy or Legislation","counts":{"speechCount":73,"speakerCount":20},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_12","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Charles Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Charles-Ward.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Charles-Ward.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Nicholas Gogarty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James O'Connor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-O'Connor.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"James-O'Connor.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Brennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Brian-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Mac Lochlainn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Albert Dolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Kyne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Kyne.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Kyne.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Callaghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Catherine-Callaghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig O'Sullivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-O'Sullivan.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-O'Sullivan.D.2019-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle I ask Members to stick to their allotted times and not to interrupt other speakers."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Lou McDonald I put it to the Taoiseach to again hike up toll charges on our roads is unjustified and unjustifiable. If this goes ahead in January, it will represent the sixth such hike in prices in as many years. It will happen at a time when petrol and diesel prices are very high, but also at a time when the Government is also moving to increase public transport fares for buses and trains. The average person is caught every way. For a Government that talks a lot about easing cost-of-living pressures and looking after working families, it is a joke at this stage. I want the Taoiseach to intervene to put a stop to and freeze this or for the State to intervene and cover this. It certainly should not go ahead. It is most unfair at a time when we know that individuals, families and businesses are struggling."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach It is not the Government that is doing this. There are very clear legal frameworks governing the operation of public-private partnerships, PPP, that built our motorways. That is the challenge here and it is related to the CPI inflation figure for the 12-month period to August 2026. Even Transport Infrastructure Ireland does not have the right to unilaterally change the basis on which PPP toll rates are revised."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Lou McDonald They were frozen before."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach There is a framework governing how the public-private partnerships-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Lou McDonald I know how it works."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach If the Deputy knows how it works, then she knows that I cannot intervene unilaterally."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn The M50 is not a PPP."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Lou McDonald I know that for ten years the Government has intervened."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle You know how this works - we do not interrupt."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Gary Gannon Yesterday, families from all over Ireland stood outside the D\u00e1il to campaign for a stronger Government response to drug-related intimidation. On the morning of that day, another family had their home petrol bombed on Clanbrassil Street, Dublin 8. In the past ten months, three children have been murdered through petrol bomb attacks on their home. Countless others have been targeted with violence and more are being coerced into engaging in criminality. This is endemic across Ireland. We need a national emergency response. The DRIVE programme referenced earlier by the Taoiseach was funded last year to the tune of \u20ac340,000. We need a response that meets the scale of what is becoming a crisis, where lives are being lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach The Government has been relentless in taking on criminal gangs over many years. We have broken up many big criminal gangs here through very focused action by An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. What tends to happen is that new generations of criminals emerge and they manifest what they do differently. There is no question that this intimidation phenomenon by criminals is abhorrent and there can be no toleration of it. An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na will focus very specifically on this and on those who are committing these murders and very violent attacks and we will bring them to justice."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ivana Bacik This month marks 65 years since the international withdrawal of the drug thalidomide from the market, yet survivors with the Irish Thalidomide Association are forced to continue their campaign for justice. I am so disappointed to be raising this again with the Taoiseach, as I have done over many years. Finola Cassidy, the well-known campaigner on this issue, just turned 65 last week. She said her birthday wish was for the State apology to thalidomide survivors to be front-loaded. Whenever I raise this with the Taoiseach, he says that a resolution process is under way but why are survivors still contending with so many delays? Why are survivors still awaiting a promised date for a next meeting? It is simply unacceptable because, very sadly, we are learning every year of more affected people and their parents passing away, dying without ever seeing the justice they deserve. It is long past time that this 65-year-long saga came to an end. Can we see an apology for survivors and justice along the terms they have sought for so long?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach What has been sought has changed as well in respect of some legal realities governing all of this and the role of the company involved. The delays are not on our side. We have met. We have had some good productive meetings and there continues to be engagement between the legal representatives and officials in my Department, and we are seeking to get a date soon for a further meeting. I want these issues resolved as quickly as we can. It has been frustrating from my perspective that certain aspects of this have not moved on as quickly as I thought they could have."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Charles Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Charles-Ward.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Charles-Ward.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Charles Ward I am asking the Taoiseach to urgently intervene in the proposed plan for Ballyconnell Estate in Falcarragh. The proposed transfer from \u00dadar\u00e1s na Gaeltachta to Donegal County Council has been under discussion since 2018. Eight years later, despite continuous efforts, the local community is still waiting. It is about much more than transferring an estate. It is about unlocking the opportunities for Falcarragh and Cloughaneely and the wider Gaeltacht community in Donegal. Ballyconnell Estate could be a countrywide facility with public access to grounds, trails and heritage. It could support tourism, recreation, employment and the retention of young people and our language. The local GAA club is hosting an all-Ireland Gaeltacht competition in 2029, an event that only comes around every 20 years or so. They need facilities and for this estate to be opened with additional spaces put in place. This event could be in jeopardy. Could the Taoiseach intervene in this and get this over the line?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I did not quite get the full title of the estate but-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Charles Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Charles-Ward.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Charles-Ward.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Charles Ward Ballyconnell."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach T\u00e1 dualgas ar an \u00fadar\u00e1s \u00e1iti\u00fail an cheist seo a r\u00e9iteach le h\u00dadar\u00e1s na Gaeltachta. N\u00edor ch\u00f3ir go mbeadh aon mhoill air seo. N\u00edl c\u00falra an sc\u00e9il agam. I do not have the full background to the case. The local authority should resolve this. My understanding is that the Deputy is saying the estate should be transferred to the local authority so that it can be developed and opened up for community endeavour and recreational amenity and as an economic asset to the area. That has happened in many other places. I recall Spike Island. On one occasion, the county manager came to me and asked me whether I could get Spike Island transferred from the Department of Justice to the county council. He did not ask for any money by the way, and all current CEOs should take note of that. He just asked if I could get him the island. Look at Spike Island today. It is a major tourism resort. That is how things get done. I will follow it up."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Nicholas Gogarty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul Nicholas Gogarty The postal service is in tatters. I have heard that it is bad enough in the Taoiseach's constituency. I have heard a lot of stories recently in my constituency. One lady had no post for six weeks. Suddenly ten letters, some of which were from early September, were shoved in her mailbox. A public services card was delivered to the wrong address. This would be typed. Post did not arrive for three days and when the postperson was queried, the post was found to be in the van. I was handed a letter from a postman from another estate with a totally different name. We do have the new longer routes so a lot of staff are leaving. There is also the suggestion that parcels have been prioritised over letters. The service is not great. The Government can attach performance metrics and service retention clauses to An Post and also hold the board and CEO accountable. Will it try to do that given that An Post is autonomous but, at the same time, it should not be allowed to get away with a woeful service?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach That is not our experience. I do not think that is uniform across the country, to be fair, and I would not like to use the phrase \"in tatters\". I will certainly ask the Minister if he can get an up-to-date performance report from the CEO of An Post."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James O'Connor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-O'Connor.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"James-O'Connor.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James O'Connor I raise the important issue of ambulance response times in the east Cork area. Recently, we have received information that service provision in east Cork is under-serviced. This is causing enormous stress and is a health hazard to people who live in my constituency, particularly in the east and north Cork regions. Thankfully, the Minister for Health is already aware of the issue and has given some commitment that in the near future, we may see improvements. Will the Taoiseach reiterate to the Minister and the Department my concern to ensure that we do something to improve these services for the east Cork region? Of course, traffic congestion and other issues impact the response times but people on the ground are concerned about this. They need to see better provision and we also need to see the development of a new ambulance base, alongside the new ambulance training college in Youghal, to improve the service once and for all."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I thank the Deputy for advocating on behalf of the people of east Cork. I am conscious of the progress made in terms of the training base in terms of Youghal. I will speak to the Minister about this issue. It is an issue that gets raised periodically in terms of ambulance response times and the model that is used. I will certainly reinforce the Deputy's concerns to the Minister and talk to her about them."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Brennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Brian-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Brian Brennan This week last year, Claire Cullen from the small village of Riverchapel just outside of Courtown was preparing for her brother's wedding in the Dominican Republic. Claire, a mother of three, was a beautiful young woman, a well-known hairdresser and a gifted artist and musician. On 7 November last year, Claire was tragically killed in a hit-and-run incident in the Dominican Republic. The driver fled the scene but later handed himself into the authorities. This horrific incident had a devastating effect on the community of Riverchapel. One year on, Claire's family is still awaiting justice. I understand we cannot interfere with the judicial process in the Dominican Republic, but I ask that the Government continue to monitor and provide full assistance to both the Cullen and O'Brien families. Her husband Ronan, her three children and her extended family deserve justice for Claire."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I thank the Deputy for raising this very sad situation. I express my sincere condolences to the husband, children, extended family and friends of Ms Claire Cullen on the tragic loss of Claire in the Dominican Republic almost one year ago. The death of a loved one is a very traumatic loss for the family and the community and when it happens far away from home, it adds another layer to the enormity of the grief of the family. I assure the Deputy that officials in the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade have been providing extensive consular assistance and support to Ms Cullen's family. The Embassy of Ireland in Bogot\u00e1, Colombia, is accredited to the Dominican Republic and provided extensive consular assistance in the immediate aftermath of her passing. Embassy officials and officials in the Department's consular directorate in Dublin have liaised closely with local authorities in the Dominican Republic to support the family in Claire's repatriation to Ireland. Since that period, the consular directorate has remained in regular contact. A dedicated consular officer in the Department was assigned to the case and remains available to support the Cullen family at any time."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle The Taoiseach and Deputy Brennan might need to engage further."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I will talk to the Deputy to see if there is any more we can do."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Mac Lochlainn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy P\u00e1draig Mac Lochlainn The Government needs to end the recruitment freeze in the health services in Donegal. For years, we have struggled with a lack of staff in our hospital at Letterkenny, our mental health services, our disability services and our community hospitals. We have lagged behind the rest of the country. We won a campaign last year on the surgical hub. It was based on the fact that we had been neglected for years. Just as we are starting to turn that around, this recruitment freeze has kicked in. It has to be removed. We cannot continue to allow our people to suffer in the emergency department in Letterkenny, our staff to work in horrendous conditions and our people with disabilities and those using mental health services to be failed. Will the Government remove the recruitment freeze immediately?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach Staffing levels have increased very significantly across the entirety of the health service in the past number of years. Budgets have gone up very significantly. There needs to be a degree of realism about this and how we plan sustainably for the provision of our health services. There has been expansion across the board. The surgical hub was a good decision that the Minister took. The Minister listened to Fianna F\u00e1il, Fine Gael, Labour and Independent TDs. There was no campaign. The Minister was readily persuadable in respect of Letterkenny, and indeed other hospitals, because a surgical hub is a good model to try to ring-fence elective beds so that people can get their surgery done more quickly. I will ask the Minister to engage with Letterkenny with a view to seeing what can be done. The staffing has increased all round this year again very substantially."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Aidan Farrelly Over 20 years ago, the Government allocated \u20ac350,000 of sports capital grant to the KDUL, the Kildare District Underage League, for grassroots football. In 2023, that was finally drawn down to develop a state-of-the-art all-weather football pitch. In that time, no KDUL league or cup match has happened on this pitch, which is fully open, because a different entity, the KDUL CLG, has full ownership of it. I do not believe this was the intended use of that sports capital fund. I raised this on the floor of the D\u00e1il last year with the Minister, who said that there was nothing to see here, that the fund had been drawn down, but we are still at a complete impasse. Will the Taoiseach ask the Minister to convene a meeting with all stakeholders? We have the KDUL, the KDUL CLG-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach Who is that?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Aidan Farrelly It is a private entity. It is essentially an academy football team and it has full ownership of it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach What team?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Aidan Farrelly Klub Kildare."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle The Taoiseach may respond, and he might need further engagement."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Aidan Farrelly It is a completely different entity. This means 6,000 kids have no football."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach This is not something that should be resolved in D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann. This is crazy. I do not understand the full background to this. Obviously, someone applied who should not have applied. Is that it, or was there previously an harmonious relationship? I presume there was an harmonious relationship between the two entities when the grant was originally applied for. I will have to find out the background and will talk to the Minister. It is terrible. The kids should be playing on the pitch. We put the money in. It is taxpayers' money. It belongs to the community. That is how it should happen. We will have to watch how that model works because that cannot happen again."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach You cannot have private groups doing that. Sorry."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn Here is something that can be resolved by D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann, the Taoiseach will be glad to know. At the start of the year, I raised with the Minister for justice an organisation that provides services to migrants in Meath. I asked for the results of an investigation into alleged financial irregularities. At the time, the Minister, Deputy O\u2019Callaghan, said that there was an investigation and that the Department was concerned about it, so much so that it had paused funding of the organisation. I have asked a subsequent question of the Minister, who again said he had concerns about it, but he said that funding had started. I have also asked for the publication of the investigation. Either there were financial irregularities or there were not. A report was done into it. That report should be published. The name of the organisation is Cult\u00far. Surely taxpayers have the right to know whether State funds were misused in this case. Surely there should be accountability. Will the Taoiseach confirm today that the report will be published so that people will know whether there was wrongdoing in that location?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach First, I do not have the background to that case. The Deputy mentioned an organisation called Cult\u00far. I will talk to the Minister about it, but in situations like this, one cannot just publish a report that could be subject to legal challenge or could be perceived to be defamatory such that people could take action and so on. I do not know the background to it. Obviously, the Minister, if he has expressed concern about it, did pause the funding initially. I cannot give the Deputy the reasons as to why funding might have recommenced. It may have something to do with the content of the report. I do not know. I cannot just unilaterally, without any background to this, condemn people, question them or put a cloud over their character or whatever."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn I understand. The Taoiseach can ask the Minister."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Albert Dolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Albert Dolan I want to raise the serious issue of access to endometriosis care for women in the west of Ireland. I recently met Endo Ireland, which highlighted the difficulties facing women living with this debilitating condition. I welcome the Government\u2019s national endometriosis framework, which designated Galway as a regional specialist hub, but over a year later Galway still has no lead clinician and no specialist excision surgery expertise. Women are being referred to Galway, where specialist treatment is unavailable, while Dublin hospitals are reportedly refusing referrals because they fall outside their catchment areas. These women are being left in limbo, suffering chronic pain without access to treatment. Will the Taoiseach commit to an immediate referral pathway for these women, a firm timeline for the appointment of a clinical lead and the full delivery of the Galway specialist service?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I thank the Deputy for raising this very important issue. The Government and I recognise how debilitating endometriosis can be and the impact it can have on those who suffer from it. To be fair, the Minister and the Government have put a particular focus on women\u2019s healthcare over the last number of years, but particularly and more specifically in respect of endometriosis. A national funded plan to improve the care is being delivered. There is a national framework for management and so on. On the specifics in Galway, I will revert to the Minister. Regional specialist centres for moderate cases have been established in the Rotunda, the Coombe and University Hospital Limerick, and I have a note that says there are clinics under further development in University Hospital Galway and the National Maternity Hospital. We also have two supra-regional specialist centres in Tallaght and Cork University Maternity Hospital. My understanding is the funding has been allocated. I am not clear as to why the appointments have not gone ahead in Galway. I will ask the Minister if she could follow up with the HSE on that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Kyne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Kyne.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Kyne.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Se\u00e1n Kyne The Government and the Oireachtas have done a lot of good and very important work on limiting the appeal, availability and use of vapes. The single-use vapes Act, which has come into law, bans the sale and distribution of disposable single-use vapes and aims to reduce environmental waste and limit access to low-cost vaping. The Public Health (Tobacco Products and Nicotine Inhaling) (Amendment) Act has banned fruit- and menthol-flavoured vape products and introduced restrictions on flavour descriptions, prohibition of display of vaping products and restrictions on their sale to under-18s. While there is a lead-in period for these Acts to come fully into force and we hope this reduces the number of vape shops, there is still a proliferation. Is the Government planning any additional changes to reduce the numbers of vapes shops on our high streets? There are some small towns with three or four vape shops, often near schools and busy roads and streets, and their visibility to young people is still there."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I accept the point the Deputy is making. I think vapes are shocking. They damage people\u2019s health and more and more research is indicating the very negative impact of vapes on young people\u2019s health and that of adults as well. We need even stronger regulation. The Deputy is correct. The Minister of State with responsibility for public health, Deputy Murnane O\u2019Connor, along with the senior Minister, has introduced these two significant measures in terms of under-18s, narrowing point-of-sale displays, tastes and flavours and so on. On the planning side, however, planning law does not distinguish between types of retail goods, so the regulation of vape sales, advertising and display rests primarily with the Minister for Health. There are retail planning guidelines. They do not allow regulation of shops by the products they sell; however, local authorities can address concentrations or impacts of particular retail uses to protect town centre vitality and visibility and ensure diverse retail offering, including litter, shopfront design and diversity of uses. There is room within those guidelines. I think we need to do more. I am talking to the Minister for housing about this. He has a lot on his plate in terms of the various planning statements his Department has to produce, but there is an issue here and many people are concerned about the proliferation of these shops."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Conor Sheehan Today is Groundhog Day because I am raising again the Government\u2019s failure to properly engage on the future funding of the CCTV network in Limerick. This is about the fourth time I have raised this. The shortfall is \u20ac660,000. The mayoral forum met this morning again. I know that the Taoiseach was not there, that he sent his apologies and that a number of senior Ministers attended, but the Minister for justice did not send his apologies to the mayor. A submission was made by the mayor and the council to his Department. I am trying to be constructive. Will the Taoiseach at least ensure that the Minister, Deputy O\u2019Callaghan, meets us as local Oireachtas Members, the pr\u00edomh chomhairleoir and the mayor? We need to find a solution to this other than the mayoral fund. We need the Minister to sit down with us instead of continually ignoring our concerns. If we do not find a solution to this, we risk a return to a feud in Limerick."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I thank the Deputy for raising this. In fairness to the Minister for justice, he was here in the House from 10 a.m. to 12 noon to deal with the Private Members\u2019 business, which I think people would expect in terms of accountability. The Minister for housing is more responsible for this. It comes under the aegis of the local authority in terms of CCTV, or maybe not. In early presentations, there was a reference to the local authority fund in terms of the CCTV provision in Limerick. As I said, I will talk to the Ministers involved. These issues should be resolvable, given the increased public expenditure in all Departments and, indeed, towards local authorities."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Callaghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Catherine-Callaghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Catherine Callaghan I raise the matter of electricity supply in rural County Carlow, particularly in my home village of Kildavin. Some residents are getting increasingly frustrated by the constant interruptions to their supply. One resident recently told me that on one day in September, they lost their electricity 11 times. This is an issue affecting families, farmers, rural businesses and, in particular, people who are trying to work from home. I absolutely accept that the Government has made significant investment in improving critical infrastructure, grid infrastructure and the work of ESB Networks. When will families and households in rural areas of Ireland feel the benefit of that investment? Is there something the Government can do in the meantime, particularly given the increasing cost of electricity?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I met EirGrid recently with Government Ministers and our sense from the meeting was that resilience had improved overall this year and will continue to do so next year. I do not know whether there are issues specific to rural Carlow in terms of electricity outages, but I will communicate with ESB Networks and EirGrid about this to see what is going on in that location."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig O'Sullivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-O'Sullivan.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-O'Sullivan.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy P\u00e1draig O'Sullivan I raise the issue of Col\u00e1iste an Phiarsaigh in Glanmire as well as other school projects, not only in Cork North-Central but across the country. The Taoiseach is familiar with the project. He attended a number of years ago the launch of the proposal for a brand new school. Unfortunately, since then, the school has been stuck in the perennial 2A, 2B log-jam. I recognise that capital spending on education has increased by about 70% since 2022 or 2023. I am not saying that significant investment has not gone in, but many projects like that of Col\u00e1iste an Phiarsaigh in Glanmire, where I live, are looking for confirmation of whether they will be part of any tranche of construction that will be launched next year. As we know, time is money. In the case of many of these capital projects, the longer we leave them on the long finger, the more likely it is that the cost will increase. It would be appreciated if the Taoiseach could bring some clarity to the situation."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I thank the Deputy for raising this. He has been raising it for quite some time and there is a degree of frustration on his part and that of the school patrons and community about progressing the school to the next stage. While he is correct in saying that additional funding has been allocated to education, inflation has eaten up a significant amount of this. The cost of school projects generally has increased, per project, by significant degrees. That said, I will keep a focus on this and will engage with the Minister for education on progressing the project as quickly as possible."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul Lawless Last night, Donald Trump took a hammering and the reason is that he failed to deal with the cost-of-living crisis. Ultimately, people punished the US Government when they could not pay their bills. I believe the same will happen here if the Government does not deal with the immense pressure people are under. Diesel, for example, is still over \u20ac2.10 per litre and almost 50% of that is taxation. The Government will still take in more this year than in any previous year in carbon tax and VAT. Electricity prices in this country are the highest in Europe, 40% above the EU average, yet the Commission for Regulation of Utilities, CRU, has implemented further network charges in the last number of weeks. Will the Taoiseach address the major pressure so many families are under with housing, rent and energy? It is crippling so many families."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach The cost of living is a major issue facing many families and that is why we took a lot of measures in the budget, including cutting taxes, bringing in a new cost-of-disability payment, reducing childcare costs at the commencement of the new childcare year next year and strong social protection increases. All of that, and specific measures for food production, haulage and farmers, were to try to ease and alleviate the undoubted costs of energy, which are caused outside the country by the wars in Ukraine and Iran. They have raised prices dramatically. We have had two crises in the last five years with the wars in Ukraine and Iran and the closure of, and restriction of traffic through, the Strait of Hormuz. Very few governments have been in the position we have been in, to try to alleviate the pressures on the public., but they are significant. The Government cannot deal with every cost increase across the economy. What we can do is try to protect as many people as we people as we possibly can."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Eoghan Kenny Last Thursday evening, I received a phone call from a family of five, including two children aged 16 and 12, who had presented as homeless to Cork County Council in Annabella, Mallow. They were told no emergency accommodation was available. The Simon Community in Cork was also full when they made the call. That night, the family of five slept in a church in Ballincollig. On Friday, they returned to Cork County Council only to be referred back to IPAS. I have seen correspondence in which IPAS directed them back to the local authority, while Cork County Council said it needed clarification from the Department of justice. They were eventually given accommodation last night, so they spent five nights sleeping in the church in Ballincollig. It is difficult to stand over a system in which a family is passed between State agencies while two children remain homeless. Will the Government review the legislation and ensure there is a clear, enforceable responsibility to provide emergency accommodation when families present as homeless?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I do not have the specific background. It is not acceptable that a family of five with two children would have to spend time in a church. I presume that if they had been moved on from an IPAS centre, it was because their residency had been confirmed or they have permission to remain in the State."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Eoghan Kenny Yes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach There have been movements from IPAS centres, but they should be organised and structured better than what happened here. I take the Deputy's point. I will not say it is in any way satisfactory. It is not."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul Murphy Will the Taoiseach allow people to decide on the Government's proposal to scrap the triple lock by calling an ordinary referendum on the Defence (Amendment) Bill? Why? Because it is a matter of national importance - the Taoiseach himself has said the triple lock is at the core of our neutrality - because people have voted on this in terms of the Nice and Lisbon treaties, and because Fianna F\u00e1il in government promised people that if it were to ever change the triple lock, there would be a referendum. Brian Cowen, as Minister for Foreign Affairs, in 2002 stated: The National Declaration [the civil declaration] confirms...that we will continue to take our sovereign decision...based on the triple lock guarantee of UN endorsement, Government decision and D\u00e1il approval....there will be no change to that situation unless the people first give their assent in a referendum. Will the Government hold to that commitment Fianna F\u00e1il made and allow the people to decide?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach Through the referendum on the Nice treaty, we inserted in the Constitution a prohibition on Ireland joining a mutual defence pact in the European Union, so we already have a provision in the Constitution prohibiting Ireland joining any mutual defence pact, which the Deputy never references. No one on that side of the House ever references it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul Murphy That is different from the triple lock"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach It is crucial because the Deputy says we want our young people to join a European army. They cannot. We could not do it. No government could because there is a constitutional prohibition on it. The Deputy mentioned an ordinary referendum. We have never had an ordinary referendum. We only have referendums to amend the Constitution, that is, to delete something from the Constitution or to add something to it. The Deputy is endeavouring to create a new form of check or limit on the democratically elected representatives in the Parliament."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul Murphy Fianna F\u00e1il promised people"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle That concludes questions. I thank the Taoiseach."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach We have a parliamentary democracy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul Murphy Fianna F\u00e1il promised people."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Deputy, please, show courtesy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach Through the referendum on the Nice treaty, we inserted the strongest possible protection-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Taoiseach, your time is up. We have finished."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach -----against Ireland joining any mutual defence pact."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul Murphy There will be no change \"unless the people first give their assent in a referendum\"."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle That is the end of Questions on Policy or Legislation. Taoiseach, please. Do not antagonise him."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul Murphy No change. Fianna F\u00e1il promised people."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Deputy Murphy, respect the direction of the Chair. Out of courtesy, I allowed the Deputy in even though we were over time. I might have to review that in the future."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna ar Pholasa\u00ed n\u00f3 ar Reachta\u00edocht - Questions on Policy or Legislation"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_13","debateType":"statement","bill":null,"showAs":"Post European Council Meeting: Statements","counts":{"speechCount":89,"speakerCount":17},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_13","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Crowe.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Crowe.D.2002-06-06","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Albert Dolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Erin McGreehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Natasha Newsome Drennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"The Taoiseach I welcome the students of Nagle Community College to the Gallery. They are led by the school's principal, Nicholas O'Keeffe, and the son of the Chief Whip, Mary Butler, Jack Butler, who teaches there. All of the students are very welcome to D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann. The meeting of the European Council on 15 and 16 October was the first to take place during Ireland's Presidency term. It was a long meeting with a very full agenda, with leaders having discussions on a number of key Presidency policy priorities. The priorities included competitiveness, the next multi-annual financial framework, Ukraine and enlargement. Other items on the agenda included migration, European security and defence and, of course, the Middle East. I will set out the main results of the European Council meeting on competitiveness, the multi-annual financial framework, Ukraine and the Middle East. The Minister of State, Deputy Thomas Byrne, will speak later to the other issues. Leaders reviewed ongoing work to strengthen the competitiveness of the European economy against the backdrop of increased geopolitical uncertainty. I briefed colleagues on the considerable progress being made by the Irish Presidency on the implementation of the One Europe, One Market roadmap, which is the blueprint for European competitiveness, building on the Draghi and Letta reports. The targets set out in the roadmap were jointly agreed by the European Union\u2019s three institutions, the European Parliament, the Council and the European Commission. As the current holder of the Presidency of the Council, Ireland is doing all we can to meet the goals agreed in the roadmap. In this context, the European Council had a useful exchange with President Metsola of the European Parliament on the importance of continued constructive engagement by the European Parliament to advance negotiations with the Council on key files in line with the ambitious timelines in the roadmap. I also took the opportunity to highlight specific priority files where an extra political push is required. This includes finding the right balance on the Industrial Accelerator Act, where compromise will be required to reach political agreement this year. On European Union Inc., our political exchanges at this European Council set the path for the Council negotiating mandate secured by the Irish Presidency on 23 October, with significant progress there. This is a measure that will make a real and practical difference to Europe\u2019s start-up and scale-up potential. It represents a significant milestone for the Irish Presidency, and I thank our hard-working teams in Brussels and Dublin for their efforts in securing this result. As holders of the Presidency, we look forward to early progress in the European Parliament so that we can advance negotiations to conclude the file. On foot of the leaders\u2019 exchanges, we also secured agreement on an important package of measures to simplify European Union digital regulation. We now have agreement on three of the four omnibus simplification packages we are aiming to conclude this year. The discussions among leaders also helped advance the European Union\u2019s savings and investment union. The Irish Presidency has reached an important agreement with the European Parliament on measures to revive and simplify the European Union\u2019s securitisation market. At the ECOFIN Council in October, the member states reached a political agreement on the market integration and supervision package. I pay tribute to the T\u00e1naiste and his team for their hard work in delivering this important agreement. These key elements of the savings and investments union, or the securing a capital markets union, will help to create a truly single market for capital, including stronger financing for fast-growing young firms at the technological frontier. Our October meeting also included important political exchanges on the review of the emissions trade system, ETS, which will inform the ongoing work towards achieving political agreement on this difficult package at the Environment Council in December. Energy was a key focus of discussion in the broader competitiveness context and leaders underlined the critical importance of tackling high energy prices. We discussed the impact of the current geopolitical context on global supply chains, energy security and prices, including the effects on citizens, in particular the most vulnerable, industry and the wider economy. We underlined the urgent need for a co-ordinated European response, with targeted and temporary measures that reflect the specific circumstances of member states and safeguard the Single Market. The Commission\u2019s proposal to postpone the methane regulation was welcomed in that regard. Alongside immediate measures to protect households and industry, we reaffirmed that accelerating the transition to clean, homegrown energy is the most effective way to strengthen Europe\u2019s energy security and structurally lower energy prices. Our discussion on global macroeconomic imbalances at the European Council underlined that China\u2019s economic model is presenting significant challenges for Europe, including de-industrialisation. Leaders welcomed the progress made by Commissioner \u0160ef\u010dovi\u010d during the recent European Union-China trade and investment consultations in Beijing, including agreement by China on an approach to significantly moderate exports of hybrid vehicles and on ways to improve market access for European exports. It is important to acknowledge that these agreements reached with China represent the first step towards achieving rebalanced trade between China and the European Union. In parallel with the ongoing dialogue with China, there was broad support for recent Franco-German proposals that advocated swifter use of existing trade defence tools and the development of new ones to rectify structural imbalances in trade. The importance of unity on this issue cannot be overstated, and we should proceed in a manner that ensures that the European Union remains a strong, innovative economy that is competitive and open to investment, and an advocate for free and fair trade. At the October European Council, I presented the Irish Presidency\u2019s revised negotiating box on the 2028-2034 multi-annual financial framework, in other words the budget for Europe for the next seven years. This meeting marked a significant milestone and achievement by our Presidency, the delivery of a robust compromise proposal on the future European Union budget. In sharing our rationale and approach, I made clear to European Union leaders that the objective of our revision was to present a modernised and flexible budget that invests in new and emerging priorities on the one hand, while at the same time protecting treaty-based policies such as the Common Agricultural Policy, CAP. The proposal also reflects the fiscal realities that all member states face. The Irish Presidency proposal reflects an ambitious budget of \u20ac1.62 trillion, a 30% increase on the current multi-annual financial framework. Our proposal remains future-oriented, with a strong focus on competitiveness, research and innovation while reflecting a greater focus on security and defence in the context of a more uncertain world. It proposes a package of European competitiveness funds totalling more than \u20ac400 billion and the competitiveness heading overall has more than doubled compared with the current multi-annual financial framework. We have also responded to the calls of a very large number of member states that want to see national envelopes under heading 1, Cohesion and the Common Agricultural Policy, protected as part of that positive, future-focused agenda. These are valued, impactful and proven policies that can continue to support and develop our regions, our rural communities and our farmers into the future. We have also sought to ensure flexibility within national envelopes in how member states allocate this European Union funding. We have protected support for recovery and reconstruction funds for Ukraine and also humanitarian assistance for the most vulnerable. We approached our task with an open mind and not with any fixed agenda. We also listened to those member states that contribute most to the budget that the previous proposal was simply too large for our current fiscal circumstances. That is not something that can be lightly set aside if we are to reach agreement. That is why we reduced the overall volume by about 8%, or \u20ac141 billion, compared with the Commission\u2019s proposal. That should not distract us from the very real increases that are being made when compared with the current MFF. This Irish proposal is for a budget that is 30% above our current MFF and almost every programme receives an increase in our negotiating box when compared with the current situation. The revision seeks to bridge the differences between member states on volume, long-term spending priorities and how the European Union will generate its revenue. As is the nature of difficult budget negotiations, our negotiating box was never going to please everyone. However, it has been broadly welcomed by leaders as an important step in the right direction. I am confident that it has advanced discussions further on the path to agreement before the end of the year. I am particularly keen that we get agreement. It now falls to President Costa to take these negotiations forward. The Irish Presidency remains at his service to assist with this complex and challenging task. Russia\u2019s illegal war in Ukraine is deadlier for civilians today than at any point since the start of the full-scale invasion. By August 2026, more civilians were killed and injured in Ukraine than during the whole of 2025. At the European Council, leaders reaffirmed our steadfast support for Ukraine. President Zelenskyy gave an overview of the situation on the ground in Ukraine. We maintained our call for a ceasefire and for Russia to cease its aggression and engage in meaningful negotiations. We strongly condemned Russia for deliberately targeting Ukraine\u2019s civilian, energy and transport infrastructure, healthcare and education facilities. Despite all peace efforts, Russia has repeatedly shown it is intent on escalating rather than de-escalating the conflict. The Black Sea corridor remains blocked as Russian strikes target commercial shipping and weaponises food and global food security. Russia is a direct threat to the global security order beyond Ukraine, repeatedly violating member states\u2019 airspace and territorial waters. Ireland is committed to ensuring Ukraine receives the support it needs to resist Russian aggression, to strengthening pressure on Russia through European Union sanctions and to advancing Ukraine\u2019s pathway to European Union membership. The European Union\u2019s robust targeted sanctions in response to Russia\u2019s war of aggression are impacting on the Russian economy, making it harder to access battlefield foods and to pay for war. Leaders also reaffirmed the European Union\u2019s determination to take forward further measures to raise the costs to Russia, including by targeting the shadow fleet and its enablers. Ireland is working to ensure that Ukraine has access to the finance it needs to defend itself against Russia\u2019s aggression. As a Presidency, we have facilitated the disbursement of the instalments of the European Union\u2019s \u20ac90 billion support loan for Ukraine. However, Ukraine still has significant financing needs for 2027, potentially in the region of \u20ac70 billion. This is a direct result of Russia\u2019s continuing and escalating aggression. The European Union and its member states will need to rise to this challenge. Leaders will return to this issue at a special meeting of the European Council in late November. As part of the enlargement process, Ireland launched negotiations on clusters 2, 3, and 6 for Ukraine, in addition to the launch of cluster 1 earlier in the year. We are working to achieve the opening of the remaining two clusters and hope that this can achieved before the end of our Presidency. Moldova is also feeling the impact of Russia\u2019s war of aggression and its threat to the security of the entire region. The people of Moldova are suffering daily from Russia\u2019s hybrid activity. It is therefore important that the European Union also works to advance Moldova\u2019s path towards European Union membership. The European Council leaders welcomed progress made on its accession negotiations, with the opening of four of six negotiating clusters to date. The opening of all clusters is a priority of our Presidency. The European Council expressed its grave concern about the deterioration in the security situation across the Middle East and the continuing military escalation in the region. We agreed on the importance of all actors avoiding further escalation. Dialogue and diplomacy remain the only viable path forward. Maritime security was a particular focus. Freedom of navigation through the Strait of Hormuz and the Red Sea is vital for global trade and energy security. We also reiterated that Iran must never be allowed to acquire a nuclear weapon. The Council clearly condemned human rights violations in Iran and the European Union must continue to take measures targeting those responsible for these violations. On Yemen, Ireland joined the Council in strongly condemning continued Houthi military escalation, including attacks against Saudi Arabia, including civilian infrastructure, and repeated attacks on civilian shipping. Leaders discussed the deteriorating situation in Gaza and the West Bank, and again called on Israel to allow immediate, unimpeded access and sustained distribution of humanitarian assistance at scale into and throughout Gaza. We reiterated the European Union\u2019s commitment to the two-state solution. Indeed, a key focus of Ireland\u2019s Presidency of the Council is to reaffirm the European Union\u2019s commitment to a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East based on a two-state solution that guarantees the right of both Israeli and Palestinians to self-determination and to live in peace and safety within secure borders. We are now at the fifth month into Ireland\u2019s Presidency term. The October European Council meeting marked both a significant milestone with the presentation of the Irish negotiating box and a significant opportunity for progressing our other Presidency priorities. I look forward to welcoming my fellow European Union leaders to Dublin next week for an informal meeting of the European Council. This will be preceded by the European Political Community summit the day before, which will be the largest meeting of international leaders ever hosted in Ireland. I look forward to updating the House on these events and future meetings of the European Council, and on the results of the Irish Presidency as we head into the most intense and pivotal phase of our term in office."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire In the first instance and before I go into the substance of it, it is important to acknowledge that during the course of the Presidency many members of staff in the Department of foreign affairs spent a considerable amount of time organising it. We must pay tribute to the enormous initiative of those people and acknowledge that. I will begin with Palestine. I just left a meeting with Francesca Albanese, who met the foreign affairs committee yesterday, informally. She will appear before the European Union affairs committee today. The statement the Taoiseach made acknowledges it, but a great deal more is needed. The situation in Palestine remains profoundly serious both in a humanitarian and political sense. Depressingly, the recent Israeli election shows that while there are differences in policies, ultimately, both the Israeli Government and opposition are dedicated to expanding settlements and undermining the pathway to a sovereign and independent Palestinian state. That needs to remain our position. Clearly it is, but it is the way that the politics of Israel remain focused on undermining that. There is a great deal more that this State can do. There is more Europe can do. The continued existence of the EU-Israel Association Agreement is a stain on the reputation of the EU. The idea that the human rights clause could not have been invoked, dozens and perhaps hundreds of times in recent years, is absurd. The Irish Government is also at fault. It is appalling that so many licences were given for dual-use items that went on to go directly to the IDF during the height of the genocide. Products produced here in Ireland were effectively going on to assist the genocidal policies of the Israeli Government. It is shameful and wrong. Questions remain as to how that sign-off would have been given. In relation to the Middle East, I echo what the Taoiseach has said about human rights abuses with Iran. I have never felt that there is any contradiction between condemning an illegal war in Iran and the chaos that is caused in that region. It is very clear that there are human rights violations. There were executions of protestors in recent days. It must go on the record again that it is a repressive and ruthless government. Nonetheless, the war that was encouraged by the Israeli Government and supported by President Trump has caused chaos in the region. There is no disputing that. At the time, I and many others said that ultimately American workers and families would pay the price for the attacks on Iran through the impact on the cost of living. That is clearly seen in the elections yesterday. It has caused chaos throughout the world. It is important to state that we will watch in the coming days the response from the US Administration. I hope that it will not see a further escalation. I will touch on the issues in Sudan. It is too often neglected, both in these Houses and internationally. It has been a bit longer than a year since the massacre at El Fasher, with some of the worst scenes of violence that we have seen in this century. The numbers who were killed in that slaughter are not yet fully known, even at this stage, but it was certainly over 20,000 and hundreds of thousands of people were displaced. It is the most appalling humanitarian situation in the world. In this area, we have leverage and things we can do. A candidate from the United Arab Emirates is putting themselves forward for Secretary-General of the United Nations. The Irish Government must rule out support for Lana Nusseibeh. There has to be a price paid for the United Arab Emirates' complicity in the appalling slaughter we have seen. She has been part of the Emirati cover for the ongoing supply of drones, weaponry and other support for the RSF, which is responsible for these slaughters. The Government has the option of stating it will not support that candidacy and it must do so. I again condemn recent attacks on civilians in Ukraine by Vladimir Putin. It is clear the statements he is making are paying lip service to negotiations and he is not interested at this point in meaningful negotiations. Sanctions need to continue to be part of it. I have raised time and again with the Taoiseach and the Minister the need for Ireland to raise its voice. The Taoiseach referenced the energy situation. Russia continues to have significant influence because of its grasp on energy. Ireland could put forward sanctions in relation to Rosatom, the Russian atomic agency. That is a clear demand of Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy. Ireland should be more vocal in supporting that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Crowe.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Crowe.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Se\u00e1n Crowe Another European Council meeting has taken place that signally fails to grasp the geopolitical realities facing the world. While Iran is rightly criticised for its attacks in the region, the conclusions of the European Council read as though it simply launched spontaneous attacks on its neighbours. Nowhere in the conclusions is the United States or Israel criticised for starting a war that has worsened an already critical cost-of-living crisis in Ireland and across the EU. Why are we so afraid to call out the United States for its warmongering? Why does it have carte blanche to destabilise entire regions, sit back and point the finger at those it attacked? If we are too cowardly to assign blame where it belongs, how can we be surprised when the US and Israel do the same thing over and over? It is cowardly. The Iranian regime is not to be defended but if we are to have a serious conversation about peace in the Middle East, it was US and Israeli warplanes that dropped bombs on 28 February this year. That is why the Strait of Hormuz closed and why a tank of diesel suddenly costs \u20ac30 or \u20ac40 more. Now that the US Republican Party has been embarrassed in the mid-term elections, the world is holding its breath for Donald Trump's reaction. It is an irrational actor we are dealing with and we are too afraid to call it for what it is. The conclusions on Gaza similarly fail to grasp the severity of the situation. We are still urging Israel to allow humanitarian aid to reach the Palestinian people unimpeded. It is clear Israel is waiting for winter to kill those Palestinians it could not bomb. Starvation, dirty water and collapsing buildings can kill as readily as a bullet or a bomb. Diseases are rampant, especially those affecting young children, but the European Council is more concerned with Hamas's political future than children who are dying right now. I question the priorities and motives of the Council. I question its humanitarianism. In the West Bank, the Palestinian Authority is criticised for not scheduling elections as settler violence spills out of control. Again, we urge Israel not to continue to steal land in the West Bank and ethnically cleanse its rightful inhabitants. Israel must be held to account; it must be sanctioned. Israel cannot be treated with kid gloves while the crimes against humanity play out before our very eyes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett I was very disheartened to hear the Taoiseach. He hardly mentioned the proposed cuts to CAP. What does this say for the farmers and what they face? Today is a major milestone for the Irish Presidency, said the Minister for agriculture following last week's meeting of the European agricultural council. It is a major milestone all right in that under the Irish Presidency the agricultural council has proposed dismantling CAP as we know it. The IFA is going around lobbying TDs to say this. The proposal involves scrapping the two-pillar structure and folding agricultural funding into wider national and regional partnership plans. Pillar 2 would no longer be protected by a dedicated funding structure, leaving vital rural development and environmental programmes competing for money. Farmers must be properly rewarded for being good stewards of the land. Environmental protection must go hand in hand with farm profitability and not come at the expense of it or of regional development. What has the Minister of State, Deputy Byrne, done to secure this for Irish farmers? What will he do in the fight for them? We want to hear about it. Is the Commission proposal of a 20% to 25% CAP budget cut still on the table? The Government, Minister of State and Taoiseach should not stand for this. If a cut to our farmers of one quarter, or even one fifth, is coming, this will not work for our farmers. The Government cannot sign off on any European budget which contains a single euro less for our farmers. According to analysis by farming organisations in my constituency of Cavan-Monaghan, these cuts would reduce family farm incomes by \u20ac2,100 to \u20ac2,300. Our rural communities and family farms cannot be left paying the price for a weakened CAP. We need the Minister of State to stand up. They cannot afford a weak Government advocating for them. Now is the time to fight and I ask the Minister of State to do that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Albert Dolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Albert Dolan I appreciate the chance to share a few thoughts I have following the European Council meeting. Primarily, credit is due to the Taoiseach, the Minister of State and the team across government for steering our Presidency of the EU. In a world that feels increasingly turbulent, Ireland is not just sitting at the table making up the numbers. We are helping to set the agenda and that is really important. We come from an island on the western edge of the Continent and it matters that we have our voice heard and can enact change. EU membership has shaped a modern Ireland. It built our economy, opened doors for generations of young people, backed our family farms and gave homegrown businesses the muscle to trade globally, yet we all know the Union cannot rest on past achievements. The playbook that brought us stability over the past 50 years will not automatically guarantee it for the next 50. That is why the focus on competitiveness, energy costs and a working Single Market hits the right note. Wearing my hat as Fianna F\u00e1il spokesperson on enterprise and the circular economy, I want to talk straight about what competitiveness looks like on the ground. In Brussels, people talk endlessly about directives, frameworks, roadmaps and benchmarks, but drive through Athenry, Tuam, Gort or Loughrea and ask a shopkeeper or engineering firm owner what competitiveness means. It means opening an electricity bill without dread, finding and keeping decent staff and spending Friday evening running your business or with your family instead of drowning in compliance forms and box-ticking. Ultimately, it is about whether the doors stay open on Monday morning. If we want businesses across Europe to thrive, we have to stop tying their hands behind their backs. Progress on initiatives such as the One Europe, One Market roadmap, the EU Inc. model and the savings and investments union is welcome, if it allows Irish firms to scale without hitting an artificial wall or having to flee across the Atlantic for capital. We need a bonfire of red tape. Every duplicated declaration, unnecessary audit and overlapping rule drains energy from enterprise. Cutting back on administrative friction is not an ideological debate; it is simply common sense. One practical example is the packaging and waste regulations. In Galway East there is a small business called Mishn\u00f3c that makes the most beautiful leather goods. As there is no one-stop shop for European waste and packaging regulations, it would have to independently go throughout member states to find a company to deal with it. That administrative burden is massive. The one-stop shop for VAT has worked so well and we need to see that rolled out for the waste regulations. Mishn\u00f3c has essentially stopped selling into all the other European districts because of this and it has hampered its ability heading into the Christmas season. In terms of energy, the Council was right to highlight how war and global instability have wreaked havoc on power prices. Nowhere is the pain felt more acutely than right here. Energy is not just an abstract line item for businesses; it is something that hits every home, business and department. The energy bill is loud and present. It has to be dealt with systemically. For a manufacturing organisation in Galway, it is the difference between hiring five more people or shelving an expansion. For a family in a rural parish, it dictates what is left in the bank account come the third week of the month or for farmers, it is a crushing overhead eating away at already razor-thin margins. A long-term pivot away from unsustainable fossil fuel imports makes strategic sense but let us be clear - the green transition cannot become a luxury tax on ordinary people. We need renewables, a modern grid and storage capacity but communities will rightly push back against massive infrastructural upheaval if all they see at the end of it is higher standing charges or dearer bills. The public has to feel the dividend in their pockets, plain and simple. The regulations have to be up to date for the technology and scale of the proposals we are dealing with. I raised that with the Minister of State during Topical Issue Matters around wind energy guidelines. On agriculture, discussions around the post-2027 CAP framework are critical. I grew up on a farm in County Galway. I am a member of Macra na Feirme. I do not need a briefing document to explain to me how vital CAP is to rural communities. It is not a handout. It is an economic bedrock that keeps schools open, local shops trading, adds high-quality food to our tables and ensures there is resilience in our country for our own food supply and in our rural economies. The Government's fright to ring-fence CAP and cohesion funds in the multi-annual budget has my full backing but the money alone will not fix what is broken if the schemes continue to remain an administrative nightmare. Farmers want to be out in the yard and in the sheds. They do not want to be sitting under fluorescent lights trying to decipher bureaucratic jargon or upload endless geotagged photos of progress on the farm. This is not what they wanted to be a part of or what they signed up to. They need to be given their time back so they can do what they do best, which is keep the farm going. The Council once again confronted brutal international realities. The ongoing devastation in Ukraine is a grim reminder that peace and sovereign borders can never be taken for granted. Europe must stand firm behind Ukraine's right to defend its territory and secure a durable and just peace. Equally, the catastrophe unfolding across Gaza and the West Bank demands unyielding moral clarity. Ireland has always been respected because we call things as they are. We must keep pressing for full compliance with international humanitarian law, unimpeded aid delivery, the release of hostages, an immediate halt to civilian bloodshed and a viable political path to a two-state solution. Pushing for that is what will define who we are. Next week, when European leaders gather in Dublin for the EPC summit and the informal Council meeting, it will be a proud moment for our diplomatic standing. However, the measure of our Presidency will not be recorded by group photos or standing on the steps of Dublin Castle. It will be judged by whether apprentices across Europe can afford an apartment, a small manufacturer can keep employing more people, delivering more in their own communities and keep trading better. It will matter when a farmer working seven days a week can get a fair wage for the work they do and the next generation feels Ireland and Europe offer them a future worth staying for."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Matt Carthy It is time we had a serious and honest discussion about the direction in which the European Union is heading. There is clearly a growing drift towards militarisation and the centralisation of power, a growing democratic deficit and overreach by EU bureaucrats and unelected officials. These are all the things we warned about during the Nice and Lisbon treaty referendums. which Fianna F\u00e1il, Fine Gael and the Labour Party told us at the time would not happen. We now see that EU funds are moving away from cohesion funding, CAP and regional development funding towards greater military spending. That is a very worrying signal in respect of the EU's direction. Under the proposals brought forward by Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael, Ireland is expected to pay more into an EU budget but get less back on the most important programmes such as CAP. Instead, EU funds will benefit EU arms companies and a militarisation that does not have the support of the Irish people. That runs contrary to Ireland's tradition of military neutrality, a position that has allowed us to pursue an independent foreign policy, stand up for international law and contribute positively to peacekeeping and conflict resolution. The Government's decision to dismantle the triple lock cannot be viewed in isolation from all of that because it comes alongside deeper involvement in EU military structures and an increasing focus across Europe on rearmament. At a time when the EU is prioritising military expenditure, Ireland should be at the forefront of defending our independent voice, not weakening the safeguards that have protected our neutrality for decades. Sinn F\u00e9in and communities all over Ireland will resist any attempt to undermine Ireland's military neutrality. We will ensure the demand for a referendum. If the Government is confident about dismantling the triple lock neutrality protection, then it should be confident enough to put it to the people. We will continue to demand that it does so. Next week, as Ministers will dine and wine with members of the European Political Community, it now appears likely that our SNAs, nurses and care workers will be on the picket lines once again. They are just asking for a fair wage and for Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael to recognise the financial pressures ordinary workers and families are under. The tone-deaf approach of this Government is galling. It is forcing vital workers to the picket lines but the bankers, developers and vulture funds have never had to strike for sweetheart deals. The head of Dublin Airport did not have to strike for the Government to give him a pay hike of \u20ac95,000, nor did the head of Uisce \u00c9ireann for approval of a \u20ac118,000 annual increase. The head of the ESB did not have to strike for \u20ac92,000 extra, neither did Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann's for \u20ac75,000 extra nor the head of the National Stud for a \u20ac60,000 pay rise. All were gifted by Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael. It is very easy to see whose side this Government is on. The Irish people are clearly on the side of our SNAs, nurses and other public service workers. We will stand if we have to alongside our striking workers next week until the Government sees and realises the real struggles workers and families are living under."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ivana Bacik October's EU Council meeting came at the midway point of Ireland's Presidency. In May and June, while dotting the i's and crossing the t's on plans for the Presidency, the Government might have thought of the public sector workers servicing these events and keeping the country running. Instead, it let the public service pay agreement lapse for the first time in decades. After months of delay and insulting low-ball offers, the Government is now set to host a crucial meeting of the European Political Community next week in the midst of yet more strike action, potentially, unless a resolution is reached at the eleventh hour. That failure delay lies squarely at the feet of the Taoiseach and Government Ministers. European leaders may fly here next week only to be greeted by picket lines of workers asking the Government for a fair deal. The October Council meeting we are here to discuss was a mixed bag. I welcome the Taoiseach's speech in which he emphasised the focus upon Ukraine, ensuring effective sanctions against Russia and the fast-tracking of Ukraine's accession to the EU. In the Labour Party, we very much welcome all of those things but I ask that the Minister of State convey to the Taoiseach our ongoing concerns about the issue of Aughinish Alumina. It is unconscionable that any exports from Ireland would feed Putin's brutal war machine particularly now as we see the people of Ukraine, civilians and children, under an ongoing onslaught from Putin. I ask that the Minister of State bring that issue in particular back to the Taoiseach. Speaking of effective sanctions, clearly, on the Israel-Palestine issue we need to see more effective sanctions against Israel. The EU is undermining its own mission as a peace project while we still see trade ongoing with Israel. While the eventual passage of the weakened occupied territories Bill was a late but welcome step, the trade Ireland and other EU countries does with illegal settlements is peanuts compared with the value of the EU-Israel Association Agreement. It is a stain on the EU that that agreement remains in place. Will the Minister of State ask the Taoiseach to update us on whether he took the opportunity at the European Council meeting in October, given that Ireland holds the Presidency, to make a clear case for ending the agreement, for ensuring it should no longer stand, and to work with like-minded countries to build a coalition against the association agreement to ensure that effective EU pressure would be brought to bear on Israel's genocidal regime? In his speech the Taoiseach also referenced the climate crisis and the climate catastrophe, but in reality it received only lip service in the read-out of the Council meeting. This is an existential crisis. It necessitates urgent action and co-operation across member states. We welcome the Commission's recent proposal for an EU climate resilience law, but we need to do much more to deal with the climate transition and energy crisis double whammy. Will the Minister of State ask the Taoiseach if he ensured discussion of the proposal from the S and D group in the European Parliament for a temporary energy emergency regulatory tool aimed at fast-tracking the rapid roll-out of renewables? As the Labour Party has said many times in this House, renewable energy is not just about climate protection; it is also about energy security and ensuring better cost-of-living measures. We have seen socialist governments in Spain accelerating the roll-out of renewables, bringing down energy costs for struggling households. Will the Government ensure the renewable energy transition is top of the agenda for the remainder of Ireland's Presidency? Another issue that needs to be prioritised in the Presidency is housing. It was notably absent from the post-meeting read-out. Again, this is a real concern for the Labour Party. It is a pan-European problem. The work of our MEP, Aodh\u00e1n \u00d3 R\u00edord\u00e1in, through the S and D group, has shown what is possible through EU structures. Aodh\u00e1n \u00d3 R\u00edord\u00e1in made it clear in his election in 2024 that housing was his number one priority. We saw, thanks to the S and D group, as the Minister of State will know, the establishment of the Parliament's first housing committee last year and the appointment of Dan J\u00f8rgensen as housing Commissioner. Young people across the EU are stuck in their childhood bedrooms, locked out of any aspirations to home ownership or even to renting their own home. Next week, the Minister of State and the Taoiseach will be welcoming leaders of every member state to a city with more than 12,000 people in emergency accommodation and homelessness. While clearly Ireland has squandered the opportunity of this Presidency to date to push for EU action on housing, will the Minister of State ask the Taoiseach to ensure investment in social and affordable housing will be at the heart of the next multi-annual financial framework and at EU budgetary level? I am aware the Taoiseach focused on that in his speech. Before I finish, I will speak briefly about workers' rights. It is concerning, in a country with some of weakest collective bargaining rights in Europe, to see so little emphasis on workers' rights and the use of the EU buzzword \"competitiveness\" often being used now to suppress the protection of workers' rights. That is a real concern for the Labour Party, the party of European Socialists, of which we are a member, and the S and D group. Will the Minister of State ask the Taoiseach how he is going to stand over the Irish Government's lack of action on workers' rights, particularly when we are likely to see strike action and people on the picket line because of the Government's failure to agree a public sector pay deal next week?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Keira Keogh I welcome the opportunity to contribute following the European Council meeting of 15 and 16 October, particularly as Ireland continues its Presidency of the Council of the European Union. I will focus on three areas today, namely, the future of rural communities and farming, children's online safety and Europe's responsibilities in international development. I will begin with rural Ireland and the future of CAP. As a TD representing Mayo, I know just how important European investment is to our rural communities. I think of programmes such as LEADER. We have so many projects in Mayo run under LEADER. I think of the South West Mayo Development Company, which recently completed a project, Cabots Cookery School, that has completely reinvigorated a rural area. These projects, which are vital in Mayo and rural communities, are investing directly in communities and allowing local people to identify their own priorities. As our negotiations continue on the next European budget, it is essential that rural development remains a priority. I particularly welcome the hard work and progress being made by the Minister for agriculture, Deputy Heydon. He secured agreement on the Council's partial negotiating position for the Common Agricultural Policy on 26 October. He is over his brief, is having regular engagements with the Irish Farmers Association, IFA, the Irish Natura and Hill Farmers Association, INHFA, and other interested parties and I know he understands the realities facing Irish farmers on the ground. We know the upcoming changes to CAP are causing huge concerns. We know there is a proposed reduction in expenditure, but I have every confidence that our Minister will fight tirelessly to support the best possible CAP agreement for farmers. This agreement represents important progress recently, but we know that financial negotiations are far from concluded. I recently met representatives of the IFA in Mayo and I acknowledge the constructive engagement we had and the very real concerns they raised. The figures they presented to me are deeply concerning. According to their analysis, Mayo farmers could face a cumulative loss of \u20ac131.1 million over the next CAP period under one proposed payment scenario. This rises to \u20ac219.4 million under a lower payment scenario. These potential reductions are highly concerning. The IFA is calling for an increased CAP budget, proper recognition of active farmers, simpler regulations and appropriate transition arrangements. These are concerns that deserve to be heard. I strongly support the Minister's efforts to secure a properly funded CAP that protects farm incomes and the future of rural communities. Second, on children's online safety, I am chair of the Joint Committee on Children and Equality in the Oireachtas. We recently launched our online safety report with a focus on well-being. In this regard, I welcome the European Council's conclusions on protecting children online. We are looking forward to the EU KIDS Act being examined fully and the proposals concerning a minimum age for social media access being expanded further. We have 45 recommendations in our report and we look forward to them being considered when the EU KIDS Act is transposed into national law. One of the strongest messages from our work is that responsibility for protecting children cannot simply be placed on parents or schools. Platforms must be designed with children's safety and well-being in mind from the outset. Christmas is coming and people will go to the shops to buy toys. When we go into a shop we can see a stamp on a toy to show that it is safe and we are then happy to give it to our nieces and nephews or our children. Yet, we have our children on platforms that are designed, or look like they are designed, for their age but carry huge risks. Safety by design must be built in from the beginning. With that, considerable importance must be placed on hearing directly from children and young people. At two meetings of our committee, we spoke directly to young people. That is important under Article 12 of United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. The children talked to us about how much they use the online world for learning, communicating and creating. We have to get the balance right between children's right to privacy and right to safety but also their right to connection, creativity and learning. Ireland has an important opportunity during this EU Presidency to advance meaningful European action on age assurance, platform accountability and harmful design features. We must ensure that children's rights, safety and well-being are central to the development of a European digital policy. Finally, I will address international development and official development assistance. Last week, I travelled to Ethiopia, with two of the Members in the Chamber, on a cross-party visit that focused on maternal and child health and nutrition. It was a very inspiring but deeply sobering visit. Ethiopia is a country with enormous potential, but one facing serious challenges arising from conflict, displacement, food insecurity and climate shocks. Having spent almost two decades working in childhood development, I know the importance of the first 1,000 days of a child's life, from pregnancy to the age of two. Adequate nutrition during this period is fundamental to healthy physical growth and brain development. Supporting children's nutrition is about much more than providing food, however. It requires access to healthcare, clean water, maternal health services and functioning community support systems. What stuck me was the importance of co-ordination between communities, healthcare workers, governments and international partners. While we were there, we saw absolutely amazing work being done in advancing the digital agenda. We visited a neonatal intensive care unit where there were not enough ultrasounds or tracing machines for the babies but it had already transitioned to paperless data and that data was fed back in at the national level. We also heard how data is being used in refugee camps to give real-time data on available stocks, but then, quite starkly, one can visit a primary care centre where a mother may have walked two hours to get some nutrients and which has no clean water or there is a lack of gloves. There was a stark contrast between some of the aims they had and some of the realities on the ground. This brings me back to the European Council's discussion on the next multi-annual financial framework. The European Union, and Ireland more specifically, have a long-standing development partnership with Ethiopia. That partnership supports longer term development, including in areas like agriculture, renewable energy, healthcare and education. These investments matter because humanitarian assistance and long-term development must go hand in hand. We cannot expect a child to thrive without access to basic services and we cannot build sustainable development without peace and stability. As Europe negotiates its next seven-year budget, there will understandably be competing demands. We must invest in our own security, our competitiveness, agriculture and rural communities, but I do not believe that investing in Europe's future and investing in the well-being of vulnerable children elsewhere in the world are mutually exclusive. Development co-operation is also an investment in peace, stability and opportunity. I therefore ask the Government how Ireland intends to ensure that poverty reduction, maternal and child nutrition and humanitarian assistance remain priorities for us in these negotiations. How can we strengthen our co-operation between the EU, Irish Aid, UNICEF and other partner organisations to ensure that funding delivers measurable and lasting improvements? I returned from Ethiopia with an even greater appreciation of the importance of this work, and of UNICEF and our embassy on the ground. Ultimately, Europe's success must be measured not only by its economic strength but also by the difference it makes to people's lives both within Europe and beyond."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Gould Yesterday there was an announcement by the Minister for justice, Deputy Jim O'Callaghan, and the Irish Prison Service that they recognise the importance of the old Cork detention barracks, or the old Cork prison, as it is called. People like Thomas Kent were imprisoned, executed and buried there. Terence MacSwiney started his hunger strike there, and many other republicans, not only Cork republicans but also nationalist republicans, were imprisoned there. The Minister has recognised that there is historical value in that building after Cork City Council voted to preserve it and to have it enshrined that it be protected. The Minister, however, has now come out in favour not of totally demolishing the prison but of the majority of it being demolished, with some parts of it being kept because of their historical value. Those parts, however, will be locked behind the new prison walls of the two new prisons being built, so people in Cork or anywhere else who want to visit this site of republican history will be barred by large prison walls and a Government that does not care about our history and our republican heroes but instead only pays lip service to them. I ask the Minister of State to take that to the Minister. To give the Minister of State an idea, at the European Council, Pedro S\u00e1nchez might tell him about the regret Spain feels following the demolition of Carabanchel Prison in Madrid, or perhaps the Minister of State's Polish counterparts could fill him in on Pawiak Prison in Warsaw, what that means to Polish people now and how much they regret decisions they made. I ask the Minister of State to take that on board and reach out to his European colleagues and ask them about that. Another issue I want to raise is the huge issue with Cork city's active travel scheme and the traffic in Cork at the moment. The Government is trying to encourage people to get out of their cars and get the cars off the road, but what we have is a bus service that does not arrive on time, one that is delayed and that does not work. At the same time, we have no light rail, we have cycle lanes that go nowhere and end abruptly, and there is no alternative for people. People therefore have to get in their cars, and now they are being stuck in them for hours. There is absolute gridlock in Cork in the mornings and evenings. What we need is a dependable bus service. Can we look at putting emergency park-and-ride facilities in GAA clubs and other sporting organisations' car parks to get people off the road? We have targets to meet, emission targets in relation to global warming and energy, and at the same time we are driving more and more cars down the road. I will leave the Minister of State with two things. A man contacted me who had - the Minister of State is kind of shaking his head-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Byrne It is just that this was not raised at the European Council."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Gould Do you know what it means? You are not reaching your targets in relation to emissions, getting cars off the road or global warming. You are driving more and more people into their cars. That creates gridlock, so if you want to know what it means, it is that you are not doing your job here because you are going off to Europe, where you can be the good boy over there, saying, \"Oh, we are doing all this.\""},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Erin McGreehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Erin McGreehan) Thank you, Deputy. I call Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Gould No. The Minister of State asked me a question and I answered him. I will give this example."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Erin McGreehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Erin McGreehan) Your time is up, Deputy, and you are starting to eat into other people's time."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Gould It took a man two hours and 45 minutes to travel from the northside-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Erin McGreehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Erin McGreehan) I call Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Gould -----to get to Ballincollig for a job interview and he missed the interview by 45 minutes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Erin McGreehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Erin McGreehan) Deputy, you will respect the Acting Chair."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Gould You might ask what that has to do with Europe. If you were doing your job, it would have something to do with it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Erin McGreehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Erin McGreehan) Go raibh maith agat. I call Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett When European leaders come here on 12 November, they should consider that the US voters have just rejected Trump's agenda of warmongering against Iran and complicity with Israel's genocide against the Palestinian people and the cost that all of that has had for ordinary people in America, who are hammered with the cost of living. When the American people are rejecting Trump's warmongering and complicity with Israel, the European leaders coming to Dublin on Thursday week are embracing that agenda - to discuss the plan of Europe to double arms expenditure and continue its complicity with the Israeli regime while it commits an ongoing genocide against the Palestinian people. That is what the Irish Government is planning to do: trash our triple lock, trash our neutrality and join European leaders who, at the bidding of Donald Trump, want to double the European arms budget from \u20ac400 billion to \u20ac800 billion and continue trade with the Israeli regime while it massacres Palestinian people, continues the campaign of ethnic cleansing and continues the regime of apartheid. Europe is the biggest trading partner for the Israeli regime, and Ireland is the biggest trading partner in Europe with the Israeli regime that continues that genocide. Then the Government prattles on about a two-state solution, which is a dangerous alibi when the Israeli elections make it clear that there is no political party in the Israeli regime interested in peace or justice for the Palestinian people. They all want to just continue with the genocide and the ethnic cleansing. The Irish Government, however, pretends as if the Israeli regime is a normal one. It does billions' worth of trade with it and it allows Europe to sell weapons to it as it massacres Palestinians. Now the Irish Government wants to extend that logic to hundreds of billions more being spent on weapons and arms while there is no money for workers, who are going out on strike, while there is no money in Spain for housing, and while there is no money for education so that French students have to come out on the streets. Working people are paying for the warmongering and the complicity with genocide. We will protest next Thursday week, marching to the convention centre to say no to war and genocide in Europe."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul Murphy It is, incredibly, almost five years since Putin invaded Ukraine. The death toll is utterly horrifying, running into the hundreds of thousands of people. However, we cannot close our eyes to the abuses of human rights that are taking place in Ukraine. The Government should not continue to close its eyes. When President Zelenskyy is here in Dublin in a couple of weeks' time, the Minister of State needs to ask him about the policies of internment and forcible conscription into the Ukrainian army that have been rolled out across Ukraine. People are being taken off the streets in unmarked vans to enlistment centres if they cannot produce the right exemption documents in a policy known as busification. Those conscripted have been reported to be injured by the officers enforcing this practice. One man, Andrii Dombrovskyi, who is 26 years old, reported having his leg broken during detainment. This is conscription for the working class, for ordinary people; it is not for the rich because the rich can bribe their way out of conscription. We cannot ignore this. The Minister of State needs to call out the abuses of human rights. The other thing, though, is that the Irish Government needs to not be complicit in these abuses of human rights because right now Ukrainians are suffering under the new temporary protection rules, which require proof of military exemption in order to be able to get temporary protection in the European Union. Ukrainians who do not have it are forced back into a war that they do not support and that they do not want to fight in. The Irish Government is currently complicit by sending back people who have come here seeking refuge, saying they do not want to fight. If they do not have the military exemption documents, they are sent back by the Irish Government to fight. It flies in the face of the Convention relating to the Status of Refugees, which says that refugees cannot be returned to a country in which they are likely to face a threat to their life. Hungary has opted out of these new rules. The Irish Government should as well. We should also be counting the years Ukrainians have been here under temporary protection towards naturalisation. There is no reason for these people to be denied citizenship while under this protection."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul McAuliffe I welcome the opportunity to contribute to these post-European Council statements. I welcome the fact that it is a standing item. It gives us, as TDs, the opportunity to contribute to the debate, albeit after the discussion, in the hope that it sticks in the minds of the Minister of State and other Ministers as they participate in other meetings of the European Council. I also note the event that is going to take place on Thursday week with a very significant presence from European leaders, that is, the meeting of the European Political Community. It is an important opportunity to discuss many of the issues facing the Continent at the moment. None of them are simple. They are complex. It is often forgotten in this country that there are many different views on all of these issues. Countries that are in closer proximity to threats that Ireland is not exposed to may understandably have very different approaches. It is the sovereign decision of the Irish people to participate in a Union that features all of that complexity. In joining the European Union, one of the things we joined was the complexity of the Continent. It has been complex for hundreds of years. It is about trying to navigate those differences and the different agendas different countries have. Having said that, I would like the most recent meeting of the European Council to have said more with regard to the situation in Gaza. The ceasefire, if it can be called a ceasefire, has provided some breathing room but there has not been enough progress on any side. The Palestinian election has been deferred. The Israeli election has taken place but we do not yet know what the outcome will be. Europe has a role. This House has said that. In calling for a review of the European trade agreement, the Taoiseach has also said it. Europe can do more with regard to the conflict in the Middle East. I would like to have seen some of that in the European Council's statement. I also want to see more on the implementation of a single market for financial services and financial products. I will go on to talk about the different freedoms we have in the EU in a moment but, alongside the free movement of people, the free movement of goods and capital is a cornerstone of what the European Union actually means. My inability, as a consumer in the European Union, to procure a mortgage, an insurance product or another financial product from any EU member state is a restriction. It is a failure of the European Union as a whole to grasp some of these issues, which I agree are very thorny, to deliver a single market for financial products. I know some steps have been taken with regard to regulatory oversight and so on but this is something that would really give consumers value. I accept that we also want to protect consumers but this would give consumers value. It is an example of how we have to move more. We have been able to do it in many other spaces, such as telecommunications and data roaming across the EU. All of these things have given benefits to consumers. It is important that we get the single market for financial products across the line. I urge the Government to do what it can within the remaining period of the Presidency. I understand that the EU budget is probably the biggest issue facing the Union. From my observations, it appears that Ireland is not taking the easy answer of just passing it on to the next holder of the Presidency. We are doing our very best to find a solution. I know the Government is respected for its ability to bring different countries together. Along with some of my colleagues, I recently had the opportunity to travel to Westminster to meet with some of the political parties in the UK. I also had some engagements in Belfast as part of an event at Stormont. There is definitely a change in the debate on Britain's role with the European Union. That is welcome. As somebody who really regretted Britain leaving the EU, it is welcome to see that it wants a greater and deeper connection with the EU. I also note Ursula von der Leyen's offer for Canada to become an associate member. I know that Britain and Canada are in different positions, with one being on the European Continent and one not, meaning that one is eligible for membership and the other not, but we have to be very careful about what European Union membership means, particularly in the context of British politicians considering this matter. The four freedoms of the EU exist for a very valid reason. The social justice check on the free movement of capital and goods is the free movement of people. If you allow capital and goods to be traded, they will be attracted to different centres around Europe. You have to allow Europe's population to avail of the benefits wherever those benefits arise. I would hate to see any dilution of that social justice check on the free movement of capital. The European Union is not just a financial or economic arrangement. It is an arrangement for the people of Europe and it must be of benefit to them. The Irish Government should protect that free movement within the European Union at all costs. We should not allow others to cherry-pick the benefits of membership, whether they are associate members or have a new relationship with the Union. It is not about being inhospitable or not seeing the benefit of common agreement on things. However, the European Union means something and we should protect that. That leads on to the matter of the candidate countries. I know there will be moves during our Presidency with regard to Montenegro and other countries. There is sometimes a rush to push for EU membership. In some ways, I am glad that it takes so long to become an EU member country. It should. There should be alignment, constraints and minimum standards to be reached in order to become an EU member. That applies to Ukraine as much as to any other country. The aspiration of EU membership should be there but I caution against having any sort of fast-track mechanism. I do not think anyone would argue that Montenegro has been on a fast track."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn Ukraine is."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul McAuliffe If I may make my point without interruption, I would argue that what is valuable about Europe and what is important to it should be criteria for all member countries. As I have said, the aspiration of membership, association with the European Union and sharing our values are all important but, if the European Union is to mean something, we need to protect those freedoms that are so important. We also need to protect the process by which countries become members of the European Union."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Natasha Newsome Drennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan We are at a time of great uncertainty across the globe. The actions of the United States are having a devastating impact on our economy. It continues to pursue its policy of endless wars in the Middle East and ordinary workers across Ireland and the EU are forced to pay the price. Where is the strong leadership from the European Commission to stand up to this bully and say that enough is enough? Other world leaders have shown leadership but the EU, along with Ireland, continues to approach the United States with cap in hand. As I have said, we are in deeply uncertain times. This is a time when we should be increasing supports for domestic producers rather than increasing our outsourcing of food production to third countries that are beyond our control. Food security is fundamental to a strong and secure state. At present, we import 85% of our fruit and vegetables. I was recently at the launch of Talamh Beo's policy proposal for basic income supports for local food producers. This group has shown that we have enormous potential in this area. In the same year in which the Irish taxpayer is spending upwards of \u20ac300 million so that the Government can wine and dine EU officials as part of the EU Presidency, our farmers and primary producers are being told that a 24% reduction in the CAP looks likely. Our farmers are already struggling, and the EU now wants to drive that blade further in. Farming in Ireland and across the EU can be viewed as just an expense or just another business because unlike other businesses, when a farm ceases or goes under, it is not just layoffs. It is empty shelves and a generational loss of knowledge. I have to question how the European Commission sets its priorities, driving up military spending while stripping the spend on food and agriculture. The Minister of State should have a look at China, a state three times the size of the EU in almost every respect from population to landmass. It spends far less than the EU on its military budget. Rather than wasting endless money on weapons, China is driving forward investment in food production and food security, and as China has overtaken the EU on almost every front from research and innovation to manufacturing, maybe it is time that the EU stopped following the United States in its blind policy of weaponising and stockpiling and started looking at China's policies in investing in agriculture. Where has the Government's voice been in advocating for an increased CAP and in stopping the stripping of CAP to boost the military industry? Every \u20ac1 of Common Agricultural Policy funding spent in Ireland generates \u20ac1.44 of economic output back into the wider rural economy. This money does not just stop at the farm gate. The funds immediately circulate through secondary rural businesses. Unlike some of the Fine Gael members who said here today that they have faith in the Minister for agriculture, and that we will see a better deal, I unfortunately do not have that same faith."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Byrne China has 2 million soldiers. Is that what the Deputy is talking about?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Collins The Minister of State should not say anything. He sold us out with the triple lock, so we will not go down that road right now. The European Council has acknowledged the problem of soaring energy prices and has asked the Commission to examine further measures-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Natasha Newsome Drennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan This is agriculture."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Collins -----but the reality is that people in Ireland cannot heat their homes, fill their tanks or pay their electricity bill. European statements and reports require real action. The figures tell a very worrying story. According to the CSO, diesel was averaging \u20ac2.06 per litre in September. Petrol stood at \u20ac1.96 per litre. Diesel prices have increased by 22% in just 12 months, while petrol is up 14%. For somebody filling the standard 60 litre diesel tank, it now costs \u20ac123.60 . That may not mean much to people living in cities with public transport options but in rural Ireland and places like west Cork, a car is not a luxury. It is a necessity for getting to work, school medical appointments and everyday services. The Central Statistics Office, CSO, reports that heating oil prices increased by a staggering 58.6% over the past year and the Government's budget threw people \u20ac40; my God. Many households have no realistic alternative to oil heating. Older people, families and those on fixed incomes are facing enormous pressure to simply keep their homes warm. However, the most alarming figure of all is perhaps electricity. Eurostat's latest figures show that Ireland now has the highest household electricity prices in the European Union. Irish households are paying on average 39 cent per KWh which is almost 40% higher than the European average of 28 cent per KWh. To put that into perspective, a household using 4,200 KWh a year pays roughly \u20ac462 more than the average household across Europe. At a time when households are paying some of the highest electricity bills in Europe, the chief executive of the ESB was awarded by the Government - it patted him on the back - with an increase of \u20ac91,917 to bring his annual salary to \u20ac410,000. It is astonishing. The Government is so out of touch. People trying to pay their energy bills will find it very difficult to understand that decision, and what is the Government's answer in the budget? It came forward with a very good idea of grants worth \u20ac9,000 for solar and batteries. We now find, although the Minister of State has no interest in what I am saying and there is nothing new there, that people in social or council housing will be unable to get that grant. People in community houses will also be unable to get that grant. It is the same as the targeted agriculture modernisation schemes grant for farmers in relation to solar. One hundred will apply, four or five will get it, and the rest will not. However, the Government will put out a glossy story that it is going to be a big give away. This is an outrageous attack on ordinary people in social housing. At a time when families are already struggling with mortgages, rents, insurance and every day living costs, that is simply not acceptable. These costs are also hitting key sectors of the economy such as our fishing fleet. The Minister of State is out in Europe long enough to bring something home to the fishermen in this country. The Government has walked away from the Rockall situation because it is cowardly. It will take on the real factions out there. I know of a fisherman - I have already brought it up in the D\u00e1il but it is falling on deaf ears - who paid \u20ac22,850 last week to be out fishing for five days. That is not sustainable. That is the end of the fishing industry, and Fianna F\u00e1il stands over that following many decades of turning its back. The Minister of State is out there in Europe, and what has he done? Deputy Timmy Dooley was appointed to a junior Ministry but what has he delivered? It looks like Fine Gael has tied Fianna F\u00e1il's hands on this. I am also worried about the CAP going forward. It is another serious issue as well."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn Incredibly, EU energy costs are way higher than practically every trading block in the world. High energy costs are a self-inflicted wound for the EU. They are a form of self-harm for the EU and are happening for a number of reasons. First, energy is overtaxed. We are talking about a staple that people need and yet if a person goes into a petrol station today and spends \u20ac100 to fill their car, \u20ac45 of that will go into Government taxation. The Government took in \u20ac4.3 billion from taxes on fuel last year. Some \u20ac1.1 billion was on carbon tax. These are the highest figures in the history of the State and came in the jaws of a cost-of-living crisis. The other element, and this is seldom said, is that this is not just bad for households and families but it is bad for the economy, business and enterprise. Another aspect that is really frustrating and has been mentioned since the start of the Ukraine war is the way the European Union charges for electricity. It charges on the basis of marginal pricing. The last unit of electricity is based on the last unit of production, which is gas. We have been listening to Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael talking for nearly four years now about how that needs to be decoupled at some stage but, of course, we ceded that to the EU, so we can do nothing about it, and this is the Minister of State who wants us to cede our military objectives to the EU as well in terms of a defence union. It is really important that we keep power and control over issues such as energy costs in this country. It is important that we get a devolution of power back from Brussels to Ireland on these issues as well."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Erin McGreehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Erin McGreehan) We now have 20 minutes for questions and answers. There will be one minute for each."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire One of the largest issues I raised was in relation to Sudan and there were statements on that at previous European Council meetings. I put it to the Taoiseach that the Government should make a statement that it will not support Lana Nusseibeh, the candidate for the UN Secretary General. A statement needs to be made to the Emirates that Ireland and the world rejects its facilitation, support and complicity in the genocidal actions of the Rapid Support Forces, RSF, particularly in El Fasher but throughout this war."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Byrne The Taoiseach raises Sudan at every Council meeting. It has been in the conclusions in the past and is regularly on the agenda for the Foreign Affairs Council as well. The EU is very much focused on that crisis. It is more than a crisis really. We are talking about millions of people affected by it. It is one of the gravest humanitarian crises the world has ever seen. This is something the Taoiseach keeps coming back to. Regarding the next Secretary General of the UN, that is a matter for the Taoiseach and Government. As the Minister of State for European affairs, I cannot speak to that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett As I was saying earlier on, people in the United States have rejected Trump's warmongering against Iran, his complicity with Israel for its genocide and the cost that it has had for ordinary working people in America in terms of the cost of living. I put it to the Minister of State that European leaders should be rejecting that agenda but instead they are embracing Trump's agenda with the plan to double arms and military expenditure across Europe. It is also continuing to trade with Israel despite the fact it is committing genocide against the Palestinian people, as well as continuing to allow the flow of arms to Israel and treating it as if it is a normal state. Ireland is also guilty of that. It is Israel's biggest trading partner in Europe and is ramping up military spending while working people are being forced to go out on strike because the Government will not give them a decent pay increase. Should the Government not learn something from what is happening in the United States and the fact that ordinary people in the United States are turning against this agenda of warmongering, complicity with Israel and the cost that has on ordinary working people?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Byrne There is no warmongering by the European Union. It is an institution of peace. There is no warmongering by the Irish Government. We do not have a sufficient military. We want to spend more on our own military. Within the EU, decisions on military spending are matters for the member states themselves. Why are some member states deciding to massively increase their military spending? It is because of the huge threat they face from Russia, a threat the Deputy continually underplays. Today his colleague wanted us to investigate Ukraine. That is what we were asked to do on the floor of this Chamber today, to investigate Ukraine."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett We are asking not to send Ukrainians back to fight in a war they do not want to fight in."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Byrne No, the Deputy's colleague wanted an investigation and for us to tackle Zelenskyy about the allegations that were made here on the floor of the D\u00e1il. This is at a time when Russia is blowing missiles into civilian populations in Kyiv and around Ukraine, and when we see all sorts of what is called hybrid activity, although some of it is very much kinetic activity, happening on the boundaries of the European Union and within European Union member states. We saw a cyberattack across the European Union just the other day. When we talk about military spending, some countries are rearming for sure because they want to make sure nobody can get past them and particularly Russia, but we are also talking about increases in spending on cybersecurity, protecting ourselves from these types of threats and making sure we have full vision of what is happening on our seas. That is what is happening at the moment. The European Union is not a defence alliance."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn Not yet."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Byrne NATO is a defence alliance. We are not part of NATO and are not joining NATO."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett We are aligned."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Byrne We would not even be able to reach the spending targets NATO members are required to meet."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett Why are commanders coming to Ireland regularly?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Byrne It will not arise on our side or on their side. There is no ramping-up of military spending. What we are trying to do in Ireland is ensure we have a military that can protect this country. On trade and relations with Israel, foreign policy is a matter for unanimity at the Council table. Every time there is a referendum, we have a discussion about the veto, the Lisbon treaty and the Nice treaty. The Deputy will have been very strong about protecting the veto. That is the veto in action. If you cannot get every single member state to agree, you cannot implement something at a European Union level from a foreign policy point of view or a sanctions point of view. That is simply the reality. The veto and unanimity is something every member state holds dear. As regards this country's trade with Israel, we have brought in the occupied territories Bill - that is in - but the Deputy is looking for full trade sanctions on Israel and a complete end to trade."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett Yes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Byrne The Deputy has to tell the workers in Ireland who would lose their jobs because of that what the consequences would be for them. I do not know the details but I read in the newspaper about Intel employing thousands of people and it actually seems to be, according to newspaper reports, the main source of trade with Israel because of the supply chains that are there. If the Deputy wants to go down to the factory and tell people what the consequences of his proposal would be, then he should do that. However, the Government has to make decisions that are not just in the interest of good foreign policy, which is what we always try to do, but are also in the interests of the Irish people."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn Obviously, I condemn the Russian war against Ukraine. It is an horrendous loss of life and limb. It is a meat grinder of a war, unfortunately and shockingly, at the moment. Both Ukrainian and Russian soldiers are losing their lives in horrendous numbers. The truth is that peace will come through a negotiated peace at some stage. The Government is now the President of the Council of the European Union. Has it made any efforts to create a negotiated peace between Russia and Ukraine? Has it spoken to the Russian ambassador? Has it reached out to Putin's Government? Has it asked Zelenskyy whether there is any way, as holding the Presidency of the European Union and in that role, in which talks could be facilitated towards developing a peace process? I would say \"No\". I do not think this Government has done that. I do not think it has lifted the phone to anybody on that. I will explain why. The EU does want peace, but it wants peace on its own terms in relation to this. It does not want a peace to happen immediately. It wants to make sure Russia is well defeated in terms of this war. My worry is that this particular policy of the European Union is actually prolonging the war in Russia and Ukraine. What steps has the Government taken - any steps - to see if it can form negotiations between Russia and Ukraine?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Byrne It is not a case of peace on the EU's terms; it is peace on Ukraine's terms. It has been invaded and its sovereignty has been attacked. Its territory has been taken by Russia, completely in breach of the principles of the UN we hear about all of the time in the Chamber. There have been offers of peace talks. Zelenskyy has offered to talk peace with Putin, but Putin has constantly refused to talk peace. The Deputy is shaking his head at that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn The Americans-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Byrne This is one thing that lost out in America, by the way, the whole pro-Russia thing. The far left and the far right are identical on Russia. They are absolutely identical. They are always asking, did you not ring the Russian ambassador? It is a crazy question. As if he has any power in the Russian system."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn The Government has the Presidency of the European Union."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Byrne From the far left, we have heard Ukraine should be investigated. From the far right, we have heard we had better ring the Russian ambassador."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn \"Far right\" is rubbish. Will the Minister of State stop calling people names? It is stupid."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Byrne We want peace on Ukraine's terms. Look at what is happening there today. Missiles and drones, probably as we speak, are being sent into civilian buildings by the Russians."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn Has the Government picked up the phone?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Byrne The Russians need to stop doing that, and that message is clear and consistent from the Taoiseach-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn It is not working."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Byrne -----the President of the European Council, the President of the Commission and the high representative for foreign policy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn Is it working?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Byrne In recent weeks, we have seen talks talking place between the Finnish President, the Norwegian Prime Minister and Putin. They have debriefed their colleagues on that, but there is absolutely no evidence that Putin wants to end this war. He should and he must. The principles of the UN Charter dictate that he should."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn The Government has taken no steps."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Erin McGreehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Erin McGreehan) Sorry, it is not the Deputy's time. I call Deputy Se\u00e1n Crowe."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Crowe.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Crowe.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Se\u00e1n Crowe In his opening statement, the Taoiseach talked about a long meeting and full agenda. The priorities included competitiveness and the next multi-annual financial framework, MFF. There was scant detail about the negotiations around the MFF, but we know development aid and development partnerships are on the chopping block. One of my colleagues talked about how we have just returned from Ethiopia as part of a cross-party visit organised by UNICEF Ireland, where we saw with our own eyes the positive impact of this aid and the dire consequences should it be withdrawn, like USAID under President Trump. I have seen hunger and poverty in Ireland but not on the same scale or to the same extreme. Will the Minister of State outline what the Government's position was on maintaining the development budget as it is? Will we fight for this life-saving, life-changing assistance? The Taoiseach talked about the proposals for the increase in the budget and so on, but this area of funding looks as though it may be cut. When we talked to a lot of the groups within Ethiopia, the big concern was who will replace USAID, but more important, what the response of Europe will be to that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Byrne I will set out the national position first because it is very important to say this. It is accepted around the world. We are one of the few countries that are not cutting development aid. In fact, we are one of the few that are increasing it in our national budgets. It is important to say that. In that sense, I agree with the Deputy. On the MFF, I can talk all day about that because I had the privilege of chairing the negotiations at my level before they went to the leaders. We were the honest broker and we had to get a negotiated agreement. It is not misinformation. We have set out the figures and it is extremely complex. Specifically on Global Europe, which incorporates foreign aid, the negotiations are still under way and I say that to our colleagues in agriculture as well. Under Global Europe, the current figure in the current multi-annual financial framework, what we are spending at the moment over the seven-year period, is \u20ac120 billion. Under our negotiating box, it goes up to \u20ac178 billion. While that is not as high as the \u20ac215 billion figure the Commission wanted, at current prices it is still a 48% increase on what we are spending at the moment. That message is very difficult to get across because there is a range of figures and they all relate to different things in the negotiating box. Even some experts are picking the wrong figure to compare things. We should compare what we are spending already and what we are proposing, and that is a 48% increase under current prices. On what the Commission proposed, yes, we have reduced the \u20ac215 billion figure, under current prices, which the Commission looked for, but we will still be spending a lot more than what we are spending at the moment. These negotiations have a way to go. I cannot guarantee that figure will stay; it is up to the leaders. We have protected agriculture and the Common Agricultural Policy. I had a very good meeting with the IFA and I know the Taoiseach has also discussed things with the president of the IFA. The negotiations are not finished and I have to be very careful about that. Why do we protect the Common Agricultural Policy? It is because all the member states, with the exception of a small number, want to. Even some of the contributor countries want to protect the Common Agricultural Policy. Within the national and regional partnership plans, there are other funds where flexibilities have been introduced that could potentially help the agriculture situation and make up some of the difference between the last MFF and this MFF. A lot of that remains to be worked out, but I am confident we will reach a situation where the Common Agricultural Policy will be protected and I will certainly apprise the IFA of that position. I am happy to meet Sinn F\u00e9in TDs who have talked about 20% cuts to CAP. I am more than happy to meet and talk with them about that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett Let us be clear: Putin is a warmonger, authoritarian and imperialist. However, so are many of the powers in the European Union whose leaders will be here next week and who the Minister of State will be meeting with. Many of the European leaders' hands are dripping with the blood of dead Palestinians massacred by Israel, courtesy of the trade, arms, funding, political support and impunity given to it by the European Union. The EU is every bit as culpable and guilty as Vladimir Putin but the Government does not say that. In fact, it welcomes the EU with open arms and embraces its agenda to rearm Europe. It has renamed it so that it is entitled ReArm Europe. That is the agenda. The reference made by Deputy Paul Murphy was to the fact that if refuge means anything, it means the right of people not to fight in a war they do not want to die in. As of August, Ukrainians coming here will not get temporary refuge if they do not have their military exemption from the Zelenskyy government, which is currently rounding up people and insisting they fight even if they do not want to. That is conscription. Part of why there was an Irish revolution was because people were against conscription in the First World War. We are now enforcing conscription against young Ukrainians who do not want to fight in a slaughter. The Government is assisting in that and if it does that to Ukrainians, it will probably do it to Irish people in the future."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Byrne Thankfully, our ancestors battled against the conscription of 1918, which was conscription on behalf of a different country and an oppressor. It is a wrong comparison."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett And you are joining in with the imperialist war effort."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Byrne It is also gravely wrong to compare EU leaders, who are our friends, neighbours and in some cases almost our cousins, to Putin. That is wrong."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett You are assisting a genocide."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Byrne That is wrong."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett It is wrong that they are assisting a genocide."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Byrne It is also wrong of the Opposition to describe this meeting as wining and dining our leaders. When you bring your neighbours and friends to your home, you put on a good show. You tidy things up, you invite them in, you have a conversation and you put the best food and wine that you have out. That is common courtesy; it is normal practice. I am certainly looking forward to this meeting next week, which will bring together almost 50 countries of the world. Almost all of the democratic world will be in Ireland. They are our friends, our allies and most of them share the same values as us."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett They are arming a genocide."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Byrne It is wrong to compare them to Putin. It is crazy to do so."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett They are arming a genocide."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn Aont\u00fa is stronger on workers' rights, the cost-of-living crisis, public services, tax justice, Gaza and Irish unity than anything in Fianna F\u00e1il. Fianna F\u00e1il is closer to Trump on all these issues than Aont\u00fa. Calling people names, no matter what side of the political divide they are on, shows an intellectual deficiency on the Minister of State's side of the debate. Albert Reynolds and Charlie Haughey reached out to the IRA in the eighties and early nineties for the purpose of trying to create peace negotiations. Many within the political establishment here landed on them and on John Hume like a tonne of bricks. They said there was no way republicans had any interest in peace whatsoever, but they did so anyway. They took a chance, tested the republican movement in the effort of peace and the peace we enjoy today is a result of those individuals taking that chance and making that effort. However, here is the Minister of State today, in the dying days of the European Presidency, admitting that his Government has made absolutely no effort whatsoever to see if we could create peace negotiations between Russia and Ukraine. That is a disgrace."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Erin McGreehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Erin McGreehan) Deputy T\u00f3ib\u00edn, I will allow the Minister of State to come in very quickly, and then Deputy \u00d3 Laoghaire."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Byrne If I heard the Deputy right, he suggested we are fast-tracking the EU application for Ukraine, which he seemed to be critical of, but we are not fast-tracking it. He also suggested we call the Russian ambassador. We are not going to do either of those things and we do not land on people like a tonne of bricks. We supported the efforts of the USA to try to get peace. We supported conversations that President Stubb had with the Norwegian Prime Minister and Putin. We support any lines of communication that would be open-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn What does that mean?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Byrne -----but Putin has to stop this war. There is an invasion going on, so it has to be stopped. That has to happen."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn Through negotiations."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Byrne I will not just talk about Russia. The contribution from Sinn F\u00e9in today about how we should be emulating China was one of the strangest statements I have heard in this House in some time. Deputies were favourably talking about China's military and agricultural policy. If that is the Sinn F\u00e9in policy now, I think it should explain that to the people. If it is talking about neutrality on the one hand and then telling us how great China's military spending is - 2% of its GDP is on two million soldiers - something very strange is going on in Sinn F\u00e9in."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire I think that is probably one of the milder examples of putting words into people's mouths in the past 40 minutes. The Minister of State knows himself that it was scutter, but we will move on from that. I recall the Minister of State in the media about a week and half ago talking about bringing debate in these Chambers to a new depth. It was about two days later that his Taoiseach accused the Opposition variously of being Nazi sympathisers, in the pocket of Putin and acolytes of Trump. The Minister of State will forgive the Opposition for taking his appeals for high-minded debate with a grain of salt."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Erin McGreehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Erin McGreehan) Deputy, we want to hear the Minister of State reply, instead of storytelling. We want questions."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire Deputy Boyd Barrett is right. There is profound complicity on the part of the EU in relation to what is going on in Israel. Can I get an update on the EU-Israel trade agreement and the need for that to be suspended? That human rights clause has been broken dozens upon dozens of times."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Erin McGreehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Erin McGreehan) The Deputy's time is up. I will allow the Minister of State 30 seconds to reply to that question before he moves on to his statement."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Byrne Again, I answered that question earlier. With foreign policy, there are rules on the veto in trade policy and other rules, and it has not been possible to get agreement around the table. It is as simple as that. Ireland has been in the vanguard of trying to get the strongest possible action there. That is recognised across Europe and the world, except of course on the Opposition benches of this House."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Erin McGreehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Erin McGreehan) That is the end of the question-and-answer session. I call on the Minister of State to give his final statement and reply."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Byrne Ba mhaith liom bu\u00edochas a ghabh\u00e1il leis na Teachta\u00ed as a gcuid r\u00e1itis agus ceisteanna. Tap\u00f3idh m\u00e9 an deis seo labhairt go gairid faoi mh\u00edreanna eile ar chl\u00e1r ghn\u00f3 Comhairle Eorpach mh\u00ed Dheireadh F\u00f3mhair. Rinne na ceannair\u00ed pl\u00e9 strait\u00e9iseach maidir le m\u00e9ad\u00fa. Thug an Taoiseach faisn\u00e9is do na ceannair\u00ed maidir leis an dul chun cinn at\u00e1 d\u00e9anta againn le linn t\u00e9ama Uachtar\u00e1nachta na h\u00c9ireann, lena n-\u00e1ir\u00edtear d\u00fanadh tr\u00ed chaibidil bhreise le Montain\u00e9agr\u00f3 agus caibidil breise amh\u00e1in leis an Alb\u00e1in. D\u2019\u00e9asca\u00edomar freisin d\u2019oscailt dh\u00e1 bhraisle eile leis an \u00dacr\u00e1in agus leis an Mold\u00f3iv. T\u00e1 s\u00e9 de r\u00fan againn d\u00fanadh na gcaibidl\u00ed uile leis an Montain\u00e9agr\u00f3 a \u00e9asc\u00fa faoi dheireadh na bliana, ar choinn\u00edoll go gcuirfidh Montain\u00e9agr\u00f3 na hathch\u00f3irithe uile at\u00e1 f\u00e1gtha chun feidhme. T\u00e1 an pointe seo an-t\u00e1bhachtach, agus d\u2019ardaigh an Teachta McAuliffe \u00e9 sin. Mhalartaigh na ceannair\u00ed tuairim\u00ed freisin faoi thogra\u00ed an Choimisi\u00fain Eorpaigh maidir le hathch\u00f3irithe inmhe\u00e1nacha an Aontais Eorpaigh i bhfianaise tuilleadh m\u00e9adaithe, comhth\u00e1th\u00fa de r\u00e9ir a ch\u00e9ile agus cl\u00e1sail chosanta le haghaidh conartha\u00ed aontachais amach anseo. Bh\u00ed pl\u00e9 strait\u00e9iseach ag na ceannair\u00ed maidir le cur chuige cuimsitheach an Aontais Eorpaigh i leith imirce, agus mheas siad dul chun cinn i gcur chun feidhme a gconcl\u00faid\u00ed roimhe sin. T\u00e1 an tAontas Eorpach in \u00e1it n\u00edos fearr anois \u00f3 thaobh imirce neamhrialta de n\u00e1 mar a bh\u00ed s\u00e9 le breis agus deich mbliana anuas \u00f3 tharla go bhfuil laghd\u00fa ag teacht ar l\u00edon na ndaoine a thagann isteach, go bhfuil an comhshocr\u00fa maidir le himirce agus tearmann i bhfeidhm \u00f3 mh\u00ed an Mheithimh, agus gur ghlac an Chomhairle leis an rialach\u00e1n maidir le filleadh go foirmi\u00fail go luath i m\u00ed Dheireadh F\u00f3mhair. Ceann de thosa\u00edochta\u00ed uileghabh\u00e1lacha at\u00e1 ag Uachtar\u00e1nacht na h\u00c9ireann is ea lean\u00faint de chur chuige at\u00e1 c\u00f3ir, daingean agus bunaithe ar rialacha a chur chun cinn maidir le himirce, tearmann agus filleadh. T\u00e1 an m\u00e9id sin bunaithe ar cheithre phr\u00edomhthosa\u00edocht: an Comhshocr\u00fa maidir le hImirce agus Tearmann a chur chun feidhme go hioml\u00e1n; cosaint theorainneacha seachtracha an Aontais Eorpaigh a neart\u00fa; ullmhacht do gh\u00e9arch\u00e9imeanna ag na teorainneacha sin a mh\u00e9ad\u00fa; agus lean\u00faint de chomhph\u00e1irt\u00edochta\u00ed a choth\u00fa le tr\u00ed\u00fa t\u00edortha. Ina theannta sin, t\u00e1imid ag obair leis na ballst\u00e1it agus leis an gCoimisi\u00fan chun gn\u00edomha\u00edochta\u00ed a chur chun cinn, ar gn\u00edomha\u00edochta\u00ed iad a bhuna\u00edtear sa Phlean 5 Phointe chun Cosc a Chur ar Theacht Isteach Neamhdhleathach L\u00edon Ollmh\u00f3r Daoine, chun Teacht Roimhe agus chun Freagairt d\u00f3, rud a foils\u00edodh tar \u00e9is na n-imeachta\u00ed in Ceuta. D\u2019fhill na ceannair\u00ed ar thopaic shl\u00e1nd\u00e1il agus chosaint na hEorpa ag Comhairle Eorpach mh\u00ed Dheireadh F\u00f3mhair. Ar fud an Aontais Eorpaigh, t\u00e1 n\u00edos m\u00f3 \u00e1 infheisti\u00fa ag na t\u00edortha ina gcumais sl\u00e1nd\u00e1la agus cosanta n\u00e1isi\u00fanta. T\u00e1 na cinnt\u00ed \u00e1 nd\u00e9anamh acu ina dt\u00edortha f\u00e9in. T\u00e1 siad uile ag d\u00e9anamh amhlaidh ar bhealach lena bhfuil ciall d\u00e1 staid agus d\u00e1 gcur chuige beartais f\u00e9in ar leith, agus do shaintr\u00e9ithe sonracha bheartas eachtrach gach ballst\u00e1t. I gc\u00e1s na h\u00c9ireann, is \u00e9ard at\u00e1 agus a bheidh ann n\u00e1 beartas neodrachta m\u00edleata. Mar sin f\u00e9in, t\u00e1 sineirg\u00ed ann ar f\u00e9idir linn iad a bhaint amach tr\u00ed bheith ag obair le ch\u00e9ile ar leibh\u00e9al an Aontais Eorpaigh ar bhealach lena gcomhl\u00e1na\u00edtear a bhfuil \u00e1 dh\u00e9anamh againn ar an leibh\u00e9al n\u00e1isi\u00fanta, inar th\u00e1inig m\u00e9ad\u00fa 43% ar mhaoini\u00fa le haghaidh cosanta \u00f3 bh\u00ed 2020 ann. Chuir na ceannair\u00ed f\u00e1ilte roimh an gc\u00e9ad tuarasc\u00e1il ullmhachta cosanta bhliant\u00fail mar mheas\u00fan\u00fa bonnl\u00edne t\u00e1bhachtach ar ullmhacht chosaint na hEorpa. Uirlis luachmhar at\u00e1 ann chun faireach\u00e1n a dh\u00e9anamh ar dhul chun cinn ar fud na r\u00e9ims\u00ed cumais tosa\u00edochta agus pr\u00edomhchumas\u00f3ir\u00ed ullmhachta cosanta a shainaithint; lena n-\u00e1ir\u00edtear ceanglais chumais a chomhchuibhi\u00fa, rochtain ar mhaoini\u00fa don tionscal a fheabhs\u00fa, sple\u00e1chais ar an slabhra sol\u00e1thair a laghd\u00fa agus aml\u00ednte sol\u00e1thair a gh\u00e9ar\u00fa chun tac\u00fa le nu\u00e1la\u00edocht. Le roinnt seachtain\u00ed agus m\u00edonna anuas, bh\u00ed tionchar suntasach ag gn\u00edomha\u00edocht hibrideach ar na ballst\u00e1it, ar gn\u00edomha\u00edocht \u00ed at\u00e1 ag titim amach n\u00edos minice agus at\u00e1 n\u00edos m\u00edstuama n\u00e1 riamh. T\u00e1 treocht shoil\u00e9ir ann: feachtas hibrideach comhordaithe at\u00e1 ann at\u00e1 d\u00edrithe ar shl\u00e1nd\u00e1il, athl\u00e9imneacht agus boinn dhaonlathacha an Aontais Eorpaigh, a bhallst\u00e1it agus a chomhph\u00e1irtithe a chur i mbaol, agus ar an mbonn a bhaint d\u00edobh sin. Is mian leis an R\u00fais muid a scaradh \u00f3 ch\u00e9ile agus \u00e1r dtaca\u00edocht don \u00dacr\u00e1in a lag\u00fa. N\u00ed \u00e9ir\u00f3idh l\u00e9i. Th\u00e1inig an Chomhairle Eorpach ar choncl\u00faid\u00ed l\u00e1idre maidir le feachtas gn\u00edomha\u00edochta hibrid\u00ed na R\u00faise. F\u00e1ilt\u00edm roimh ghlao na gceannair\u00ed go dtreiseodh an tAontas Eorpach \u00e1r n-iarrachta\u00ed agus go mbainfeadh s\u00e9 \u00fas\u00e1id ioml\u00e1n as na hionstraim\u00ed agus na s\u00e1sra\u00ed uile at\u00e1 ar f\u00e1il chun cur i gcoinne na gn\u00edomha\u00edochta sin. Bh\u00ed ruda\u00ed eile ar an gcl\u00e1r, ar n\u00f3s ch\u00farsa\u00ed COP31, c\u00farsa\u00ed faoin Artach, agus Ceuta agus Melilla. Bh\u00ed an Taoiseach ag caint faoin tS\u00fad\u00e1in freisin."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an D\u00e1il ar fionra\u00ed ar 3.04 p.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 4.04 p.m."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sitting suspended at 3.04 p.m. and resumed at 4.04 p.m."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Post European Council Meeting: Statements"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_14","debateType":"debate","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/101","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/101\/dail\/2","houseCode":"dail","stage":"2","isBillStage":true,"showAs":"Short-Term Letting and Tourism Bill 2026: Second Stage (Resumed) (D\u00e1il)"}},"showAs":"Short-Term Letting and Tourism Bill 2026: Second Stage","counts":{"speechCount":12,"speakerCount":12},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_14","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Daniel Ennis","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Daniel-Ennis.D.2026-05-25","memberCode":"Daniel-Ennis.D.2026-05-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jen Cummins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin Hayes","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James O'Connor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-O'Connor.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"James-O'Connor.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Clendennen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cormac Devlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cormac-Devlin.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cormac-Devlin.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister for Enterprise, Tourism and Employment (Deputy Peter Burke) I move: \"That the Bill be now read a Second Time.\" I am pleased to introduce this important legislation to the House. The publication of this Bill represents a significant milestone in the development of a modern regulatory framework for short-term accommodation rentals in Ireland and in the fulfilment of our obligations under the EU Short-Term Rental Regulation. That regulation, which came into effect on 20 May, provides for the collection and sharing of data relating to short-term accommodation rental services and aims to enhance transparency and oversight across the sector. At its core, this Bill is about establishing a clear, fair and effective framework for the regulation of short-term letting in Ireland. It will ensure that hosts and platforms operate within a consistent set of rules, that public authorities have access to the information necessary to perform their functions effectively and that policymaking is informed by reliable evidence. Over the past decade, the short-term letting sector has undergone significant expansion. The emergence and growth of online platforms have transformed the way accommodation is marketed, booked and provided creating new opportunities for tourism and generating additional income for many property owners. As a result, short-term letting now forms a substantial and increasingly important part of Ireland's tourism accommodation offering. The scale of this activity is considerable. Pending the establishment of the national register, F\u00e1ilte Ireland continues to produce monthly estimates of online short-term letting activity based on data derived from online listings. These estimates indicate that as of September 2026, approximately 31,770 short-term letting properties were advertised across two of the largest booking platforms operating in the Irish market. Despite this growth, the State has lacked the tools necessary to obtain a complete and accurate picture of the sector. To date, there has been no comprehensive national register of short-term letting properties and limited mechanisms for gathering consistent information about activity in the market. As a result, policymakers and regulators have faced challenges in monitoring the sector and understanding its impact at national and local level. This Bill addresses that gap. It will establish for the first time a national registration framework for short-term lettings involving stays of up to 21 consecutive nights and will give effect to the data-sharing arrangements required under European Union law. The Bill designates F\u00e1ilte Ireland as the competent authority responsible for administering the framework. It will establish and maintain the national register, operate the single digital entry point required under the EU regulation and oversee the collection and sharing of relevant information. Together, these measures will provide a more comprehensive understanding of short-term letting activity across the State and support effective regulation of the sector. The benefits of this approach are significant. It will provide clarity and certainty for hosts regarding their obligations, establish consistent requirements for online platforms and ensure that public authorities have access to the information required to support informed decision-making in areas such as tourism, housing and regional development. Importantly, the framework also supports the Government's broader objective of ensuring that long-term residential accommodation is prioritised in areas experiencing housing pressures. In that regard, the Bill supports both tourism and housing policy objectives. Under the Bill, all hosts providing short-term accommodation rental services will be required to register with F\u00e1ilte Ireland, which will issue a unique registration number for each registered unit. Registration will be straightforward and fully online. The system has been designed to minimise administrative burden while ensuring that the information necessary for effective regulation is collected. A nominal registration fee of \u20ac25 will apply, which will be prescribed by F\u00e1ilte Ireland through regulations. Once registered, hosts will be required to display their registration number on all advertisements and listings relating to the accommodation unit. F\u00e1ilte Ireland will verify information submitted by hosts to ensure the accuracy and integrity of the register. The obligations established by the Bill do not rest solely with hosts. Online short-term rental platforms will also be required to play an active role in supporting compliance. Platforms must display registration numbers, conduct random checks on listings, submit specified rental activity data to F\u00e1ilte Ireland and remove or disable access to listings, where required by law. These obligations reflect the central role played by platforms within the short-term accommodation market and are fully aligned with the requirements of the EU short-term rental regulation. A regulatory framework is only as effective as its enforcement mechanisms. For that reason, the Bill provides F\u00e1ilte Ireland with the powers necessary to monitor compliance and investigate suspected breaches. The legislation provides for the appointment of registration officers and authorised officers with powers to conduct inspections, carry out investigations and require the production of records and information, where necessary. These powers are proportionate, practical and essential to the effective operation of the framework. The Bill also establishes a graduated enforcement regime. In the case of hosts, enforcement measures include fixed payment notices and summary offences. For online short-term rental platforms, the Bill provides for an administrative sanctions process where contraventions of legal obligations occur. Where appropriate, matters may be referred to an independent panel of adjudication officers that I will appoint. The panel will have the authority to determine whether a breach has occurred and, where warranted, to impose financial sanctions of up to 2% of annual worldwide turnover. This approach ensures that enforcement measures are proportionate, effective and accompanied by appropriate procedural safeguards. A key requirement of the registration process is that hosts must confirm that their accommodation is planning compliant. The Government recognises the importance of clarity and consistency in this area. Accordingly, the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy James Browne, obtained approval to publish the national planning statement for short-term letting activity on 3 November. The statement establishes a clear and consistent planning framework for the sector and provides certainty for hosts, local authorities and communities. The planning framework set out in the statement restricts the approval of new planning permissions for short-term letting activity in cities and larger towns with populations exceeding 20,000. At the same time, it provides a pathway for existing operators to regularise their position through a presumption in favour of granting retention permission in specified circumstances where properties have operated continuously as short-term lets for at least seven years and no enforcement action has been taken. A simplified administrative version of the application process for retention specifically for these short-term lets was introduced on 29 September 2026. The Bill does not alter the existing arrangements for genuine home-sharing. The letting of a room or rooms in a person's principal private residence will remain exempt from planning requirements. A home-sharer may also continue to let their entire principal private residence for up to 90 cumulative days per year while temporarily absent. Beyond that threshold, planning permission for change of use will continue to be required. The Bill also incorporates an important transitional arrangement for existing hosts. Hosts operating in locations with populations below 20,000 have a two-year period within which to regularise their planning position. This provides a proportionate pathway to compliance while supporting an orderly transition to the new framework. The legislation contains a number of additional reforms. It strengthens co-operation between F\u00e1ilte Ireland, public authorities and other competent bodies in the performance of their functions under both national and European legislation, including the short-term rental regulation and the Digital Services Act. The Bill also establishes a dedicated registration framework for limited visitor stays in purpose-built student specific accommodation. This is not a new activity. Many student-specific accommodation providers already accommodate visitors outside academic term time, making productive use of otherwise vacant capacity. Nationally, the supply of purpose-built, student-specific accommodation continues to expand, with 16,704 beds delivered since 2017, bringing total stock to more than 49,700 beds. Current projections indicate a need for approximately 42,000 additional student beds over the coming decade. The purpose of these provisions is to place existing practice on a clear statutory footing through a proportionate registration framework. Registration will operate on a three-year cycle and is designed to complement, rather than duplicate, existing registration requirements with the Residential Tenancies Board, which are focused on the landlord-tenant relationship. The new framework will provide greater transparency and regulatory oversight of visitor accommodation activity and is strategically important for tourism as it provides a clear regulatory basis for the continued use of otherwise vacant student accommodation during holiday periods. This supports accommodation capacity at times of peak demand, improves the efficient use of existing assets and contributes to a more resilient and sustainable tourism sector, while preserving the primary role of these developments as student accommodation. The Bill also modernises elements of Ireland's wider tourist accommodation regulatory framework. It updates provisions governing hotels, guesthouses, hostels, holiday camps, caravan sites and camping sites to reflect contemporary operational, administrative and regulatory requirements. At the same time, the legislation repeals a number of outdated provisions relating to accommodation categories that no longer reflect current tourism practices. A key element of these reforms is the introduction of an independent appeals process for decisions relating to statutory registers established under tourism legislation. While the original legislative framework, dating back to the Tourist Traffic Act 1939, did not provide for such a mechanism, modern regulatory systems place a strong emphasis on transparency, accountability and procedural fairness. The new appeals process will ensure that all registered accommodation providers have access to an independent review of registration and grading decisions, strengthening confidence in the administration of the registers and bringing the framework into line with modern standards of good regulatory practice. This Bill represents a practical and proportionate response to a rapidly evolving sector. It will establish, for the first time, a comprehensive national framework governing short-term letting activity across the State, strengthen regulatory oversight, improve the quality of information available to public authorities and ensure that Ireland fully implements its obligations under European Union law. Critically, the Bill will provide, for the first time, a comprehensive picture of tourist accommodation provision across the State. Through the establishment and modernisation of statutory registers, public authorities will have access to more complete, accurate and up-to-date information on accommodation providers and accommodation capacity. This enhanced visibility will support better policymaking, more effective enforcement and a stronger evidence base for decisions affecting tourism, housing and regional development. Beyond short-term letting, the Bill delivers the most significant modernisation of Ireland's tourist accommodation registration framework in decades, updating legislative provisions, strengthening governance arrangements and introducing independent appeals processes across a range of statutory registers. Most importantly, it reflects the Government's determination to address the impact that the growth of short-term letting can have on housing availability in areas facing significant housing pressures, while continuing to support a vibrant and sustainable tourism sector. By bringing greater transparency and oversight to the sector, the Bill will help ensure that homes are used for their intended purpose, provide policymakers with the information needed to respond to emerging pressures and support a more balanced approach to the use of accommodation across the State. In doing so, it will contribute to protecting housing supply for local communities, while maintaining the important role that tourism plays in our economy and regions. I look forward to engaging constructively with colleagues across the House as the Bill progresses through the legislative process. I thank Members for their time."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh I put on record my complete opposition to the Minister's plan to rush the Short-Term Letting and Tourism Bill through the House. Doing so will severely hinder our collective ability to properly scrutinise this legislation. The Government has made an absolute shambles of this. Having had two and a half years to prepare the legislation, the Minister is now scrambling to meet his own deadline of 1 December, forcing through a Bill with serious implications for tourism, rural employment, local businesses and housing. The EU regulation was adopted in April 2024. The Government knew what was required and when it had to be delivered, yet the Minister has scheduled Committee Stage, Report Stage and Final Stage of this Bill for one single day next week. He has had two and a half years to prepare the legislation and is providing one day in the D\u00e1il to scrutinise it. That is simply unacceptable. What makes this particularly disgraceful is the treatment of the organisations and individuals who took time and participated in the pre-legislative scrutiny. In the past year, at the Oireachtas Committee on Enterprise, Tourism and Employment, we engaged with stakeholders and listened to detailed evidence from tourism providers, housing organisations, local authorities and industry representatives. These organisations committed considerable time, resources and expertise to that process. They attended hearings, prepared submissions, answered questions and raised legitimate concerns about how these regulations would operate in practice. They did so in good faith, believing their input would contribute to the committee's recommendations and be laid before the Minister before the final legislation was published. Yet, the Minister went ahead and published the Bill on budget day - on budget day of all days - before our committee had even completed its pre-legislative scrutiny work or published the report. What message does that send to the groups and individuals we engaged with? It is that their time was wasted, their expertise was irrelevant and that the Government was simply going through the motions. There is considerable frustration among those stakeholders who feel completely disrespected by how the Minister has treated this process and they have every reason to feel that way. Pre-legislative scrutiny is supposed to improve the legislation, identify problems and ensure those affected have a meaningful opportunity to be heard. Instead, the Government has made a complete farce of this important parliamentary process. To make matters worse, much of the committee's work took place without the national planning statement being available - we begged and begged for it time and again - despite planning being one of the most contentious aspects of the entire framework. How could stakeholders properly assess the implications of the Bill, when such a fundamental part of the regulatory regime was missing? I will let my colleague, Deputy \u00d3 Broin, who will speak next, highlight the concerns Sinn F\u00e9in has about the planning elements of the Bill but it is important to point out that the Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage did not have any role in the pre-legislative scrutiny of this Bill. Beyond the treatment of the Oireachtas and the stakeholders, another issue demands attention. It is the absolute disaster that has been the Government's communication with short-term letting providers about their new obligations. Across Mayo and throughout the country, people are contacting us because they simply do not know where they stand. These are people running legitimate tourism businesses, many of them small family operations, which have served their communities and visitors for years. They are worried about whether they will be able to continue trading. They are unsure whether their properties meet the new requirements, whether they need planning permission and what evidence they must provide. Up to now, they were also wondering what costs would be put on the planning process. I see that the Minister said it will be \u20ac25. The Government expects people to navigate these changes within an extraordinarily tight timeframe. The F\u00e1ilte Ireland register is due to open on 1 December, with the short-term letting operators required to register before 31 December. Who thought it was sensible to introduce such significant changes with a deadline falling during the Christmas period? What will happen if an application encounters difficulties when public offices are closed or operating reduced services? Where are the providers supposed to turn for reliable advice? People are being left to piece together information themselves, relying on industry groups, public representatives and conflicting interpretations of Government announcements. That is no way to treat people whose livelihoods depend on getting these decisions right. It is not simply uncertainty about paperwork. For some providers, it is uncertainty about their income, their investment and the future of their family businesses. These people feel completely disrespected. They have spent years providing accommodation, supporting local tourism and contributing to their communities. The least they deserve is clear information, reasonable timelines and a Government willing to engage properly with their concerns. I will turn briefly to the wider implications for tourism, particularly in rural Ireland. Tourism is an economic lifeline for communities in the west of Ireland, including places like Mayo. It supports thousands of jobs directly and indirectly and sustains hotels, restaurants, caf\u00e9s, pubs, shops, transport operators and visitor attractions. In many rural communities, tourism is one of the few industries capable of generating substantial local employment and keeping young people living and working in the area. Self-catering accommodation is an essential part of that tourism economy in some areas. Traditional holiday cottages, converted farm buildings and family-run properties provide visitor accommodation in places where hotel capacity is limited. When visitors stay in Achill, Westport, Belmullet or Ballina, their spending supports businesses throughout the local economy. If that accommodation disappears, the impact will go far beyond the individual provider. This is where I have serious questions about the Government's approach. Has the Minister assessed how many tourism beds could be lost if providers withdraw from the market because of these regulations? What assessment has been carried out of the consequences for rural employment, visitor numbers and local businesses? Crucially, what is the Government's plan to mitigate any reduction in tourism accommodation capacity. Will there be incentives to encourage investment in additional hotel beds in rural and high amenity areas? Will small hotels, guest-houses and family-run accommodation providers be supported to expand? We cannot spend millions promoting the Wild Atlantic Way and encouraging tourists to visit the west and then fail to ensure there is sufficient accommodation for them. Building new hotel capacity takes time, investment and certainty. The Government needs to demonstrate it has thought this through and is not just hoping the market will adjust. Sinn F\u00e9in has consistently supported the regulation of short-term letting. We want properties returned to the long-term, residential market in areas where housing demand is acute. In recent decades, huge commercial investors have been allowed to buy up huge portfolios of properties in communities. These vulture funds make huge profits and pay very little tax. There has to be a clear distinction between that activity and legitimate rural tourism accommodation. Removing a traditional holiday cottage from the tourism market does not automatically create a permanent home but it could mean lost visitors, lost spending and lost employment. That distinction must be reflected in the implementation of these regulations. We support a national register, proper standards and effective enforcement but we also need a practical, affordable process for existing operators, sufficient resources for F\u00e1ilte Ireland and local authorities and a clear plan to protect local tourism capacity. Will the Minister explain how local authorities are expected to process thousands of additional planning applications or how F\u00e1ilte Ireland will have sufficient resources to enforce these new regulations? On 1 January next, will enforcement officers be out in force to inspect short-term let properties to ensure they are compliant? That gets to the heart of the fear and uncertainty that genuine short-term letting operators are feeling. This is not how legislation affecting thousands of businesses and communities should be handled. People deserve clarity, not confusion and they deserve proper legislation, not a last-minute rush to meet Government-imposed deadlines. I ask the Minister to provide that clarity this evening and to please reconsider his intention to rush this through the D\u00e1il next week. It is far too important. The Minister needs to trust the local authorities, which know their areas, to be able to make decisions about getting the balance right between housing that is desperately needed for staff in hotels and other tourism amenities and the amount of accommodation needed in an area to support the tourism objectives in that area. Rushing this through is a mistake and it is one that will be regretted by the Government."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin It is hard to over-estimate the extent of the mess the Minister and his colleague, Minister for housing, Deputy Browne, have made of this entire episode. We have been discussing the need to regulate short-term letting in this House for a decade, since I was elected in 2016. During that entire period, thousands of homes that were built for long-term residential occupation, predominantly in urban areas, but also some rural parts of the country, have been acquired by commercial interests and flipped into short-term letting. They have been breaking the planning laws of the State, in many cases for a decade. In turn, they have been having an enormous impact on our housing and homelessness crisis. This is the not the first time the Government has botched regulation of short-term letting. The Minister's party colleague, Eoghan Murphy, made a mess of his regulations in 2019. The proposal in front of us today started life in 2022. Deputy Conway-Walsh was absolutely right to highlight the absurdity of the length of time it has taken to get here compared with the amount of time we have to address the Bill in the House. It has been more than four years in the making and yet here we are. While there is virtually no opportunity to scrutinise the Bill, the planning policy statement that was agreed by the Cabinet yesterday has not undergone a single second of Oireachtas scrutiny. This planning policy statement is not a policy statement. It includes new planning law agreed by Cabinet without any debate, without any Oireachtas scrutiny or any opportunity for Members of the House to amend it and without a single vote. That is an utter disgrace. Not only has the Minister caused enormous confusion among the providers of much-needed tourism product in predominantly rural high-amenity areas, people who are using properties on their own land, properties that would never be in the rental market, but there is nothing at all in this planning policy statement that will see the return of long-term residential properties in housing estates in cities, towns and villages to long-term use. Let me explain why. The population threshold of 20,000 is utterly absurd. It is not based on any objective criteria of housing need, rental supply or homelessness. It is a grubby political fudge to keep this Government together and we are all the worse for it. There should be a lead-in period for folks in rural communities to be able to regularise planning. I have no issue with that, but I think two years is probably too long and much longer than I would have proposed. The really appalling part of James Browne's planning policy statement is a seven-year grandfather clause. What this document says is that regardless of being in an area population above or below 20,000, someone who has been breaking the planning rules of this State for seven years or more up to 1 December will get a get-out-of-jail-free card and will get a presumption to grant planning permission. This applies even to a large commercial entity that has snapped up family properties all over the State and is letting them out on short-term lets for higher amounts of money. That is particularly bad in our large urban centres, but it will also be really bad for communities in the Connemara Gaeltacht, parts of the Cooley Peninsula and elsewhere. This is not about supporting much-needed tourism product - we support that. It is about allowing people who have broken our planning laws consistently to be rewarded and allowed to do so into the future. How do I know? It is because the report the Government commissioned from the Housing Agency, produced by Indecon, found that 70% of those people advertising properties, particularly home properties, on Airbnb have been trading for over seven years. Unless a tiny number of these have been hit with enforcement under the Eoghan Murphy rule - that really is a very small number - they will all get through straight away. Those of us who were on the housing committee together discussed these issues for a long time before the Minister moved to his current portfolio. In addition to the genuine concerns that my colleague Deputy Conway-Walsh raised with respect to the tourist economy in rural and high-amenity areas, this will not do a single thing to assist those of us whose primary interest is the supply of long-term residential homes to buy or rent and addressing growing levels of homelessness. That is why the Minister has got this so wrong. We set out an alternative; we showed him time and time again how this could be done properly to get that balance in those rural high-amenity areas but also get those properties that got planning permission for long-term residential use back into long-term residential occupation. The Minister has ignored us, just as Eoghan Murphy did in 2019. As a consequence, not only will this planning policy statement and the planning regime be as much of a failure as its predecessor in 2019, but we will end up with the weakest short-term letting regulations in Europe. That is not something for the Minister to shout about. It is a bad day's work in the Oireachtas, and it is why he should not be proceeding on the basis that he has outlined today."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett Many short-term letting operators offer a great service that people enjoy. They offer alternatives to traditional accommodation, often enhanced, or unique options and experiences for tourists in particular that fill gaps, especially in rural communities like the one I come from. They might otherwise not sustain a more traditional commercial accommodation operation, but the unregulated nature and the proliferation of short-term lets in both urban and rural communities have in effect incentivised the conversion of family homes into commercial short-term lets, as well as impacting the private rental sector. In the midst of a housing crisis, that is not in any way sustainable and it should not have been tenable for so long. However, for a long time, the Government has allowed these negative impacts to fester and proliferate through its failure to regulate the sector appropriately. This, of course, has contributed to the housing crisis where we now have upwards of 18,000 people homeless in this country. It has also fostered confusion and concern among short-term letting agents. I welcome the fact that the Government is finally seeking to regulate short-term lets, but it should not be at the cost of long-term homes. Unfortunately, even at this point the Minister's approach is beset with a seeming lack of transparency. There is fake urgency on the part of the Government, while it continues to beget concern and uncertainty within the sector itself. Sinn F\u00e9in supports regulation. We believe that people should be able to utilise their principal private residence for short-term letting for up to 90 days per year when they are not present, or spare rooms throughout the year, with no planning requirements. In more rural and high-amenity tourism areas, a flexible approach is justified for family-run tourism products in buildings that are not suitable for long-term homes while restricting the flipping of family homes into short-term lets. In urban areas where there is high demand for long-term housing, communities where few homes are available for rent and homelessness is at record levels, homes should be used for the purpose for which they were granted planning permission, to be people's homes. This is a common-sense and practical approach. Sinn F\u00e9in supports the creation of a short-term letting register to ensure compliance. What has lacked common sense until this point has been the Government's approach. There has been a failure to take action for many years, which has caused frustration and consternation among both housing bodies and short-term letting agencies conceived for the tourism industry, yet we see a fake urgency manufactured through the Government's inaction, which saw the Bill published before the enterprise committee had even concluded pre-legative scrutiny. Nor has the housing committee had an opportunity to weigh in yet regarding the planning aspects of the Bill. Now the Minister wants to proceed to Report and Final Stages next week. This is very poor legislative practice. It is an affront to the Oireachtas committee and the role the D\u00e1il plays in scrutinising legislation. It is in effect treating these Houses as an annoying rubber stamp to the policy proposals. The Irish people deserve a high standard of legislative practice from their Government and so do short-term letting operators. I appeal to the Minister to reflect on this and meaningfully engage with both the Opposition and committees before we go any further with it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Rory Hearne I echo the points made. The Social Democrats are concerned about rushing through this legislation despite years of the Government dragging its feet. It is very poor governance and it is not taking the Oireachtas seriously. Doing things like this actually undermines our democracy. After years of failing to act, suddenly the Minister is saying we have a very short period in which to offer amendments, put in changes and debate it. It is a failure to take the Opposition seriously and to take this D\u00e1il seriously. The biggest social issue facing this country is the housing disaster. Our housing system is dysfunctional in many ways, but nowhere is that more stark than in the use of short-term lets in our housing market. Thousands of complete homes are being let out on a permanent basis as short-stay accommodation on platforms like Airbnb when young people and increasingly older people who cannot find a home to rent or buy are either in emergency accommodation or stuck in what is really hidden homelessness. A generation of adults are stuck living in their childhood box room. I spoke to a pensioner in Santry in my constituency last week. She is 65 years of age and she is couch surfing with different family members every other week because she cannot afford to rent somewhere. I spoke to teachers and nurses on the pickets who are in their late 20s and are still living at home, or commuting crazy distances and then doing a day's work or a night shift. They were from Wexford, Louth, Monaghan - all places - spending hours in a car to get to Dublin because they cannot find a home to rent or buy. Young people are unable to stay in the places that they come from, especially our Gaeltacht areas, because there is not a home to find, yet there are 34,000 homes to rent out as short-term lets on Airbnb and other platforms. This is almost as many homes as the Government delivered in terms of supply last year. Almost an entire year of housing supply, thousands of homes, are being let out short term on a permanent basis. This is not about a room in your house. It is about landlords, multiple property owners and, increasingly, various property companies and property investors who have turned homes, which should be available on the long-term rental market to provide a home to a nurse or a teacher, into cash cows for property investors on Airbnb and other short-term platforms. Across this city and country, every area is affected and has had homes removed from the rental market, which instead have been maxed out on Airbnb. The best evidence of this, where the negative impact of short-term lets and Airbnb on our housing market became so clear, was during Covid. The Minister might remember that Airbnb and short-term lets could not function during Covid. What happened? Thousands of properties suddenly became available. People were able to move from emergency accommodation into these rental properties. For the only time in a decade, homelessness was reduced significantly because Airbnb and short-term lets could not function. They could not operate. It is direct evidence that Airbnb and short-term lets are contributing to the homelessness and housing crisis. If they did not exist, thousands of homes would be available for people. The previous Government actually recognised that four years ago. Darragh O'Brien said, \"We know that significant numbers of properties have been withdrawn from the long-term rental market in recent years and diverted for use as short-term lettings, negatively impacting on the supply and availability of private residential rental accommodation\", and he was right. The Government then introduced planning requirements that aimed to return 12,000 short-term lets. Those planning requirements were never enforced. Short-term lets continued. In April 2025, the Government stated that there would be a requirement for short-term lets to get planning and register in the case of towns with a population of greater than 10,000, which is also in the housing plan, but what happened? It was increased to 20,000 because of the Healy-Raes and their involvement in government. They are gone, but the Government is continuing their legacy with gusto. Imagine a family with young children who are renting a home and receive a notice to quit from a landlord, or imagine a couple in their 30s still living in their childhood bedrooms. They are desperate to find somewhere to rent and they look on Daft but there is nothing. If they look on Airbnb, however, there is property after property. I am contacted by people who say this to me. They are absolutely frustrated, broken and angry. They cannot find somewhere to rent, but Airbnb lists thousands and thousands of properties. It is enraging and depressing our young people. The failure to act on short-term lets has a particular negative impact on our Gaeltacht communities. T\u00e1 an gh\u00e9arch\u00e9im tith\u00edochta in\u00e1r gceantair Ghaeltachta ag cur thodhcha\u00ed na Gaeilge mar theanga bheo i mbaol. Our Gaeltacht areas are facing an existential crisis as there is nowhere for young people growing up there to live, while what they see are short-term lets everywhere. I ask the Minister to go on Airbnb and then daft.ie . Today, on Airbnb for Gaoth Dobhair in D\u00fan na nGall, you can choose 22 properties to stay in, but not one is available on daft.ie . In Corca Dhuibhne in Kerry, including Daingean U\u00ed Ch\u00fais, 139 properties are on Airbnb and just one is on daft.ie , which is actually a two-bedroom apartment available for only eight months of the year at \u20ac1,600 per month. Mar is gh\u00e9archeantair turas\u00f3ireachta cois c\u00f3sta iad cuid mhaith de na ceantair Ghaeltachta is l\u00e1idre sa t\u00edr, t\u00e1 drochthionchar ag Airbnb ar an nGaeltacht sa mh\u00e9id is go mb\u00edonn s\u00e9 an-deacair agus costasach ar chainteoir\u00ed Gaeilge \u00f3n nGaeiltacht n\u00f3 ag obair sa Ghaeltacht \u00e1it ch\u00f3naite a aimsi\u00fa. That is why we will be putting forward a number of amendments to this legislation, which are also supported by Conradh na Gaeilge, Threshold, the Simon Community, Tinte\u00e1n and B\u00c1N\u00da. These amendments will look to bring these areas under the restrictions. It is unacceptable that these areas will not be subject to any restrictions or planning requirements for another two years. These organisations have highlighted these areas. This is Conradh na Gaeilge and the Simon Communities. The Government is not listening to these organisations. They are very serious. They are representing people who are either in Gaeltacht areas or in homelessness, and the Government is ignoring them. I really hope the Government will take on board their amendments. One of the most obvious flaws of the legislation is that it is not providing for towns and cities with populations under 20,000, which will leave large parts of the country with no new controls. The Government promised four years ago, even longer ago, that it would clamp down on short-term lets, yet here we are and it is giving another two years. It has been years and years of delay, which shows that the Government is not serious about clamping down on short-term lets. What it actually wants to do is give the pretense of doing something but not actually doing it at all. It appears that this is another policy designed to fail. The question is about enforcement. How will these rules actually be enforced? The Minister mentioned fines and other aspects, but who is going to enforce them? There is no clarity around that. If a declaration is made by a short-term let owner, what does that declaration involve? We need clarity on that. Why should the declaration not be clear and show the planning permission that has actually been achieved? There is not clarity on that, and we need to see that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney One of the greatest challenges faced by both employers and communities is the current lack of housing in this State, and a key aspect of this legislation is the impact this has on enterprise and on businesses. When it comes to questions of regulation and the facilitation of tourism, we can often get siloed in our thinking and see the benefits and challenges faced only by a particular kind of business without focusing on our wider economy. In pre-budget submissions, conversations with business owners and wider society, we constantly hear that one of the biggest challenges facing businesses in Ireland, particularly in the tourism sector, is that they cannot get staff because those staff cannot find anywhere to live. In areas best known for tourism in this country, the local communities who make up the workforce of our caf\u00e9s, hotels, shops and tour companies have been pushed out of their own areas. If there is no community, there is no workforce. This is the balance that needs to be restored across our country. It means that a caf\u00e9 with the demand to open seven days a week that only has the staff to open four days misses out on the benefits of tourism in its area. Regulation of short-term lets ensures proper balance between allowing for holiday rentals and ensuring that the number of holiday rentals is not creating a situation whereby nobody can live in areas popular with tourists. It is that simple. I welcome the fact that there are steps in this Bill to address this issue, but they must go further. I have serious concerns with the overall approach from the Government. This issue has a particular impact, as my colleague said, on rural and Gaeltacht communities. M\u00e1 labhra\u00edonn an tAire le daoine i gCorca Dhuibhne, sa Daingean, i gConamara agus in iarthar Chorca\u00ed d\u00e9arfadh siad leis nach f\u00e9idir le daoine \u00f3ga fanacht sa mbaile. N\u00ed f\u00e9idir leo clann a th\u00f3g\u00e1il. N\u00ed f\u00e9idir leo saol a dh\u00e9anamh d\u00f3ibh f\u00e9in mar n\u00ed f\u00e9idir leo tithe a fh\u00e1il mar gheall ar l\u00edon na Airbnb sna ceantair Ghaeltachta seo. I will return to this later, but particularly in the context of a grandfathering role, I need to highlight that this is far from a new problem. T\u00e1 an fhadhb seo ann le fada agus t\u00e1 tionchar aige ar thodhcha\u00ed na teanga agus meath na Gaeltachta. Caithfear an reachta\u00edocht seo a athr\u00fa le cuimsi\u00fa go mbeidh ceantair Ghaeltachta faoina mbr\u00e1id. It is not good enough that there would be like light-touch rules in the Gaeltachta\u00ed and a two-year delay because they have no areas with a population over 20,000. The purpose of this Bill should be to provide them with the proper oversight and protection they need so that Irish speakers will be living and growing there into the future. That is a clear gap in this legislation that must be addressed on Committee Stage. It is important to acknowledge that not every short-term let is appropriate to be turned into a long-term rental, but we know that many properties on Airbnb and similar platforms are normal residential homes. Currently, the system does not distinguish at all between a heritage railway cottage that could not be occupied year round, a log cabin that is fine for a weekend but inappropriate for permanent occupancy, or a three-bedroom semi-detached house in a residential estate that could and should be a much-needed home. The only way to ensure we distinguish between these is proper regulation and planning. This kind of policymaking will deliver well beyond the acute housing challenges we face. It will also level the playing field in the tourism sector such that accommodation providers using appropriate properties and complying with the rules will be able to run their businesses. This is only possible where there is balance within communities so that the sector works for our communities and our society. We need policy to reflect that goal. We have a long tradition of self-catering accommodation as part of our tourism sector. In particular, it has facilitated an income stream for women in rural Ireland, who had limited opportunities in decades past. However, platforms like Airbnb and the short-term lets boom have turned a sector that could have been sustainable and worked for communities into one rife with exploitation and which disadvantages businesses and ordinary people in those communities. Let us remember these same companies continued to export services to the occupied territories due to the failure of our occupied territories Bill to cover services. Proper legislation of short-term lets is long overdue. We have required planning permission since 2019 but, due to weak enforcement and a lack of resources for planning authorities, we have had an incredible level of non-compliance. Of the tens of thousands of short-term lets in this country, only 1.3% have applied for planning since 2019. This is frustrating for ordinary people who comply with planning rules to build their homes and for other businesses that must use properties with the appropriate planning permission and pay rates on them to boot. It is also frustrating that this long-overdue action was only sparked by the impending introduction of EU rules, despite the clear effect unregulated short-term lets were having on Ireland. This leaves untouched those communities who have faced this problem for longest. It leaves off the hook the operators who have already gone seven years without complying with the planning requirements and it locks us into a situation that has proved disastrous for so many communities across this island."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Daniel Ennis","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Daniel-Ennis.D.2026-05-25","memberCode":"Daniel-Ennis.D.2026-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Daniel Ennis Let us be honest: this Bill goes nowhere near far enough. We are in the middle of a housing emergency. The measure of this legislation must be how many homes it brings back into use for people who desperately need them. Almost 17,000 properties are being used entirely for short-term letting in areas of high housing demand like the one I represent in Dublin Central. Thousands of those could potentially be returned for long-term housing. Think about what that would mean. Families would get out of emergency accommodation where they are living in some of the worst circumstances of anyone in the country. Young people would get a chance to move out of their parents' box rooms - people in their 30s, 40s, 50s and even 60s still living at home. People would finally have somewhere to build a life. Two houses on the North Strand, which back on to where I live, have lock boxes outside them. We see them all over the city. Anyone who lives in this area will see the high number of Airbnbs littered around. These houses are vacant for six, seven or eight months of the year. Two homes that could be used by families and be part of a community are just lying vacant for most of the year. There are huge issues with Airbnbs in the north inner city and in Dublin Central as a whole. This week I got an email from a resident of a building that contains an Airbnb. He described weekly disruptions from parties, fire alarms being triggered, security doors being broken and drug use by those staying in the apartments. It has got to the point where these incidents are affecting residents' safety, security and enjoyment of their own homes and communities. Instead of doing everything possible to bring those homes back, the Government is proposing to favour granting permission to properties that have operated as short-term lets for seven years without enforcement action. Where an operator has failed to get the permission they needed, why should the State's failure to act now count in its favour? What are we saying to the people who follow the rules? What are we saying to the families who have spent years in hotel rooms or bed and breakfast accommodation and in some of the worst living conditions anywhere in the country, if not Europe at this stage?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jen Cummins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Jen Cummins As a TD for Dublin South-Central, I have two conflicting issues. Dublin South-Central has massive tourist attractions. Dublin 8 is blessed to have so many attractions but there is also a massive housing issue. Every one of my clinics has people coming to me who are living in emergency accommodation or where generations of people are living in one home so they do not have to go to emergency accommodation. They are in overcrowded and unacceptable housing situations. In September, there were 15,005 people on Dublin City Council's housing list. When we have short-term lets, as we currently do, around the city, they could be people's homes. In Dublin South-Central there is a conflict. We want the tourists to come but we also want people to have places to live in. If you are a student in Dublin 8, you will have plenty of accommodation but it will not be affordable. That is only for the international students who can come. If you are a tourist, you will have loads of hotels to stay in. Before coming into the Chamber, I had a look at some of the short-term letting platforms. There are almost 250 places I could have stayed in for a couple of nights if I was a tourist, but they could be somebody's home. This city is becoming vacant as a place to thrive and live because people cannot afford to live here. Young people cannot afford the rents and they certainly cannot afford to buy a home. That is why we have shortages in our healthcare and education services. I have also spoken to business owners who cannot get staff. Soon we will have an empty facade. There will be nobody in the pubs except the tourists. I do not know who will work in them. We have to do something about housing in this city."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin Hayes","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Eoin Hayes I attended the enterprise committee for the Bill's pre-legislative scrutiny last year. Since I moved into my current brief, it appears there have been delays and changes. It is hugely disappointing to see the shape the Bill has taken since I attended that committee. Let me be clear: the unmanaged growth of short-term lets needs to be halted. A register is required, with lettings subject to planning compliance and a system of enforcement. To the extent those things are provided for in the Bill, it is to be welcomed, but the regulatory impact has been watered down significantly. Of the approximately 20,000 full homes being used for short-term letting, F\u00e1ilte Ireland estimates 10,000 could be brought back into long-term use. That would be a huge injection into the long-term rental market, providing homes for thousands of families, but there is a real risk the Bill in its current form will not achieve that. The exemption of towns with populations under 20,000 represents a cynical approach to regulation by the Government. It completely undermines the purpose of the Bill and will neutralise its impact in some of the worst affected areas, towns like Dingle, Dalkey, Westport and Kinsale. The Bill will require significant amendment on Committee Stage. Planning exemptions are problematic. It appears the clause in section 47 exempting short-term lets in those smaller towns from planning compliance requirements for two years only mandates regularisation for lettings that already exist at the time the legislation is brought into effect. In Dublin City Hall there is a statue to Thomas Drummond with the inscription, \"Property has its duties as well as its rights.\" We would do well to heed that warning and strengthen this legislation on Committee Stage."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James O'Connor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-O'Connor.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"James-O'Connor.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy James O'Connor I am standing here in my capacity as Cathaoirleach of the Joint Committee on Enterprise, Tourism and Employment. I commend and thank Members from Government parties and from the Opposition. I recognise the contribution of Deputy Conway-Walsh. I am joined by Deputy Clendennen and others from the committee who have spoken on this matter. Unfortunately, I have to report to the House and the Minister that there is a general sense of disappointment at how the committee has been treated by the Department, while taking into account that two Departments are involved, namely, the Department of housing and the Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment. I believe the body of work we did was significant. As Cathaoirleach of the committee, I want to acknowledge and thank everybody who came before us to argue for their side of the debate, including those who decided to invest in Airbnb accommodation as a source of subsidiary income, whether they did it out of economic necessity or choice. Around rural Ireland, farmyards and cottages have been done up and an accidental landlord may have come into ownership of a residential property with the intention of making an income from it in retirement or of staying at home and taking it on as a second career. There are many different lanes to this debate. I acknowledge what Opposition Members have said and take into account the fact that Ireland is a country with 18,000 people who are homeless. There is an huge difference between high-pressure areas in cities like Dublin, Cork, Galway and Limerick, as well as places in rural Ireland where homelessness is an issue, and communities that rely on tourist accommodation to bring economic activity into their areas, which must be separated out. My home town is Youghal. We were victims, quite frankly, of blatant disregard in the acquisition of hotels for use as IPAS centres. We lost over 60% of our bed capacity to an IPAS operator that took away the largest hotel in the town. This had a detrimental impact on Youghal's economic activity, which really relies on having visitors coming to the town and supporting pubs, restaurants and tourism amenities there. It is a coastal location where we have always welcomed tourists. This has had a huge impact. In parts of the country that have permanently lost hotels, where not only were they in contracts with existing owners but they were also purchased by IPAS operators, these problems still exist. I heard references to the Healy-Raes and to Deputy Michael Healy-Rae in the House today. To be fair, Deputy Michael Healy-Rae has spoken quite positively about the impact of short-term letting in many rural communities and for families that rely on it. I agree with what is being been pushed in terms of the threshold being increased from 10,000 to 20,000. That is quite a good balance in the context of where it should sit. It will do what is necessary when it comes to having a positive impact, helping to bring more accommodation back into use as residential housing stock and allowing the use of the types of properties I have described for tourism purposes. I am critical of the fact that the three Stages of this Bill will dealt with in one day. This is not a healthy practice and it undermines the work of the Oireachtas committees. I work with the Minister and the Opposition as collegially as I can, but, unfortunately, what I have to say here today is not positive or welcome. I hope it does not happen again. I know it will be very difficult for us to get to the bottom of the rationale for that because there are two Departments involved, but it is something that does concern me. For families that might only have one Airbnb property or that have renovated a farmyard or farm buildings, there is a lot of concern about the 30-day limit, getting the necessary paperwork ready and the cost involved. This is something that has not been properly thought through."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Clendennen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy John Clendennen I thank the Minister for bringing forward this Bill in relation to short-term lets and acknowledge the work that the Government has done in relation to housing. We are not coming at this from a standing start. There has been a huge amount of work done in terms of improving our delivery of housing but also in ensuring that vacancy and dereliction are addressed through the likes of cro\u00ed conaithe. Progress is definitely being made, and that has to be acknowledged. This Bill is not just about housing; it is also about tourism. We need to protect our housing as much as we protect our tourism. I do not want to make this an issue regarding an urban-rural divide, but many of the urban TDs have spoken about housing, emergency accommodation and so on. From the perspective of rural tourism, what we are discussing is a lifeline for many people. It is their revenue and their income stream. For many farmers I know who have diversified into alternative streams of income, this has been one really positive and effective way of maintaining the viability of their land and their family units and ensuring that they can remain in and continue to make a positive contribution to rural Ireland. We have seen the likes of thatched cottages and old farm houses brought back to life. They have brought back the character of Ireland, which we try to conserve in so many ways through the work of the Heritage Council. It also involves large heritage buildings that - let us be realistic - are not suitable for long-term family living but that are an absolutely exceptional offering as short-term lets. It is important that we are working with these stakeholders to ensure that they can continue to offer the charm and uniqueness that people travel from all over the world to see and experience first hand. The register will be critical not just in the context of its implementation but also when it comes to ensuring its ongoing upkeep and the accuracy of the information that is shared. There is a concern among individuals in the short-term letting sector regarding regulation. There are also concerns about compliance. We need to take a pragmatic approach to that. The Irish Self-Catering Federation has stated that there is grave concern that many of those in the sector will just pull out. These lets could be used to create weekend jobs for a student or a few important jobs in local communities where there is no foreign direct investment or input from multinationals. We need to see where this will sit in terms of that national planning statement and the journey we will go on regarding planning regulation and compliance. There are concerns out there. If I look at county councils at the moment, we can see that one could be waiting three months for a pre-planning meeting. We need to ensure that local authorities are adequately resourced and are going to work favourably with stakeholders to ensure that they are compliant. I have no doubt that the vast majority of stakeholders in this sector want to comply, want to have decent offerings and want to ensure that they offer their guests a safe stay. I do not think we should be dividing this between housing and tourism. We need to ensure that there is compliance on both sides, but we also need to protect our housing and our tourism. The Minister has taken a pragmatic approach and all I would ask for is that he provides the necessary and adequate resources to ensure that the sector feels a sense of reassurance that he will work with it along with the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage to ensure that this can be achieved."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cormac Devlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cormac-Devlin.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cormac-Devlin.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cormac Devlin I welcome this debate on the Short Term Letting and Tourism Bill 2026. This Bill gives hosts something they have been asking for, namely clarity. For the first time, the State will have a national register of short-term lets. Every host will have one registration number, every platform will have to display it and F\u00e1ilte Ireland will have the powers of enforcement. In light of publication of the national planning statement yesterday, there will be one clear set of rules across the country. Hosts play an important role in Irish tourism, particularly outside Dublin. Last year, a record 8.4 million guest nights were booked in Ireland through online platforms. Most were outside Dublin. In many rural and coastal towns, hosts keep visitors and their spending in the local economy. That is why the two-year window for hosts in towns of under 20,000 people is sensible. It gives them time to regularise their planning while they keep trading and welcoming visitors to towns and villages across the country. We must recognise why this legislation is needed. The sector has grown significantly in recent years, often with no way to identify or contact hosts. The State cannot plan for what it cannot count or assess. In our cities and larger towns, too many full homes have left the long-term rental market. In D\u00fan Laoghaire in my constituency, the average new tenancy costs over \u20ac2,600 a month at the start of this year. That is almost \u20ac800 above the national average. Every home that is returned to long-term renting makes a difference. More generally, I welcome the direction of travel on housing. In the 12 months to September, more than 32,500 new homes were commenced. Last year, over 9,000 new-build social homes were delivered, which is the largest number since the foundation of the State. Supply and developing new services are the key to tackling the housing crisis. That means more homes that are built faster with the necessary water, energy, transport, childcare and education services that new communities demand and need. I ask the Minister to ensure that every host, particularly the small host in rural Ireland, gets clear guidance from F\u00e1ilte Ireland and his or her local authority before the register opens on 1 December. Genuine hosts want to comply. We should make it easy for them and keep red tape to an appropriate minimum. This Bill brings clarity for hosts and fairness for communities and I will be supporting it."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Short-Term Letting and Tourism Bill 2026: Second Stage"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_15","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Visit of Hungarian Delegation","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_15","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle Before I move to Deputy \u00d3 Murch\u00fa, I ask Members to join me in offering a warm c\u00e9id m\u00edle f\u00e1ilte to our colleagues from the National Assembly of Hungary: Mr. M\u00e1rton Hajdu, chair of the foreign affairs committee; and Mr. Csaba Bakos, president of the Hungary-Ireland Friendship Group. They are guests of Senator Mary Fitzpatrick, convener of the Hungary-Ireland Parliamentary Friendship Group. They are most welcome."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Visit of Hungarian Delegation"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_16","debateType":"debate","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/101","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/101\/dail\/2","houseCode":"dail","stage":"2","isBillStage":true,"showAs":"Short-Term Letting and Tourism Bill 2026: Second Stage (Resumed) (D\u00e1il)"}},"showAs":"Short-Term Letting and Tourism Bill 2026: Second Stage (Resumed)","counts":{"speechCount":44,"speakerCount":27},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_16","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Albert Dolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Kyne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Kyne.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Kyne.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Cooney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Cooney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Cooney.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Nicholas Gogarty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Cahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Carol Nolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mattie McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niamh Smyth","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question again proposed: \"That the Bill be now read a Second Time.\""},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa I often wonder about all these conversations we have regarding housing and whether we ever actually get anywhere. There is an element involved of being like a hamster on a wheel, but there is also a need to put certain things on the record because one eventually wants to see circumstances where we actually see real and meaningful movement. When we are looking at a figure very close to 18,000 in relation to homelessness, everything has to be addressed. We are talking about significant numbers of children in this scenario. Obviously, none of this is acceptable in any way, shape or form. We heard from the Minister, Deputy Browne, in recent times about what local authorities cannot do in relation to turnkeys. We understand the logic behind that, in the sense that no one wants a local authority going up against a first-time buyer, but the only reason some of those local authorities, like the one in my constituency, have been able to deliver on the targets set for them by the Government - as much as I think the targets should be higher - is because of that. The other issue is reducing the ability of AHBs to deliver on housing. While we would all prefer that the councils themselves would do it, there are issues in relation to capacity, but I would like to see a more holistic solution introduced. We all agree on the necessity of a short-term letting register but, again, are we going to see any return of properties to the long-term residential market, either to rent or buy? That is for those who would be in a position where they would be able to either rent or buy. We all know Airbnb and other platforms have facilitated the movement of what literally could be family homes, either through rental or purchase, into the short-term letting market. The fact is the short-term letting market in particular in big urban areas is taking away from a supply that is needed. We would like to be coming from a different place where we are not dealing with the issues that we are, but the fact is that we are starting from where we are starting from. The Minister has also managed to anger housing organisations and those who advocate on behalf of those who have difficulties in getting housing, be it through rental or purchase, and also those who are representing the people who are engaged in short-term letting. We have had the arbitrary population figure of 20,000 \u2013 although \"arbitrary\" is probably the wrong term. That was decided for political reasons. I think that is fair to say. While we would all like to see flexibility in those areas that require short-term letting from a tourism point of view, we have to take into account the housing and homelessness issues in those areas. We have all seen short-term lettings that work, which are in the correct place. We have also seen where that is not the case and they are in large residential areas and they have impacted detrimentally on the neighbours around them. My issue is that this is another bit operation. It is an element of confusion. I would like to think that we would have something with a bit more clarity. We do not have a holistic solution across the board to deal with housing and homelessness and we are going to continue having these conversations. I do not know when we are going to see success and deliver for people who have a housing issue."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle The Deputy\u2019s time is up. I thank him. I give a cautionary warning about using the name of commercial entities in the Chamber which are not here and no allegations have been made against them. It is just a warning."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy George Lawlor I will take your advice on board, a Cheann Comhairle. I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this Second Stage debate. At the outset, I want to acknowledge that there is a legitimate public policy objective behind this legislation. Every Member of this House is deeply conscious of the housing crisis. Every one of us knows families who cannot find accommodation, young people who have been locked out of home ownership, workers travelling enormous distances because they cannot access housing near their jobs, and, most tragically, the growing number of individuals and families forced into emergency accommodation. No responsible politician can ignore those realities. For that reason, I understand the Government's argument that the regulation of short-term letting should not be confined solely to our largest cities. I can appreciate the rationale behind including towns with populations of 20,000 or more. Housing pressures are no longer restricted to Dublin, Cork, Galway, Limerick and Waterford. We are seeing increasing pressure in large regional towns throughout the State. However, if we are serious about tackling homelessness and increasing housing supply, then enforcement resources must be focused primarily where the crisis is at its most acute. The figures speak for themselves. Today, more than 17,000 people are living in emergency accommodation. Of those, almost 15,000 are concentrated within the major urban centres of Dublin, Cork, Galway, Limerick and Waterford and their surrounding metropolitan areas. That is where the pressure is greatest. That is where the demand is greatest. That is where homelessness is most severe. That is where enforcement must be most vigorous. If local authorities and regulatory bodies have finite resources - they always do - those resources should be directed first to those areas where the return is highest and where even modest increases in long-term housing supply could make a meaningful difference. I fear that this legislation risks creating a situation where scarce enforcement resources are spread too thinly across the entire country. In policymaking, there is always a danger of trying to be everything to everyone. Sometimes the result is that we end up being effective nowhere. I want a system that targets abuse. I want a system that addresses large-scale commercial operators who have effectively removed housing stock from the private rental market. I want a system that ensures compliance, but I also want proportionality. There is a world of difference between a major investor operating multiple short-term rental properties in a city experiencing severe housing shortages and a homeowner who occasionally rents part of their principal primary residence. Those distinctions matter. Good legislation recognises such distinctions. Poor legislation ignores them. The Government itself recognises that housing pressures are not uniform across the country. If that is true, and it is, then enforcement priorities should not be uniform either. A one-size-fits-all enforcement approach risks imposing significant administrative burdens on smaller communities where short-term letting may play an important role in sustaining local tourism while yielding very little additional housing supply. The central question must always be this: where can intervention deliver the greatest public benefit? The answer is obvious. It is in the major cities. It is in the areas where emergency accommodation numbers are highest. It is in the areas where rental shortages are most acute. It is in the areas where housing demand vastly exceeds supply. I therefore believe the Government must make it absolutely clear that enforcement policy will be targeted and prioritised according to housing need. There is another issue with this Bill that deserves much greater scrutiny. That issue is planning. Throughout this debate we have heard the Government speak about planning compliance. We have heard Ministers say that short-term letting activity must comply with planning requirements, yet I have to ask a very simple question. Why now? Why has this suddenly become the great planning issue of our time? Short-term letting has existed in one form or another for years. Platforms have operated openly. Properties have been advertised publicly. Successive Governments were fully aware of the sector, so why are we only now being told that there is a planning crisis associated with short-term accommodation? Why was this not addressed years ago? Why was it not clarified years ago? Why did government after government fail to provide certainty? Why were homeowners, small tourism providers and local authorities left operating under a cloud of ambiguity? These are not unreasonable questions. In fact, they are questions the public have every right to ask. The Government now wants us to impose additional requirements and regulation, but where was the urgency when clarity was needed? Where was the urgency when local authorities were seeking guidance? Where was the urgency when people were trying to understand what rules applied? One cannot help but feel that this legislation is attempting to cure symptoms rather than address causes. That brings us to the heart of the matter. Why is the spotlight being trained so heavily on self-catering accommodation and short-term lets? Why has this become such a major political focus? The answer is uncomfortable for the Government, but it needs to be stated. It is because it provides a convenient distraction from the Government's failure to build enough homes. That is the uncomfortable truth behind much of this debate. Successive Governments have presided over one of the most severe housing crises in the history of the State. Housing completions failed to match demand. Planning systems remained cumbersome. Infrastructure delivery lagged behind. Affordable housing targets were missed. Social housing waiting lists continue to grow. Private rents have spiralled. House prices escalated beyond the reach of ordinary working families. Homelessness reached record levels. Those are the facts. Against this backdrop, the Government has increasingly looked for explanations elsewhere. Migrants working in our essential services are blamed. Planning appeals are blamed. Vacant homes are blamed. Now, short-term lets are increasingly being blamed. Of course, all of these factors can play a role but none of them explain the scale of the crisis. The primary reason Ireland has a housing emergency is painfully simple. We have not built enough homes for a very long time. That is the central failure. No amount of regulatory activity aimed at short-term letting can hide that reality. No amount of administrative enforcement can substitute for housing delivery. No amount of political spin can alter the basic arithmetic of supply and demand. The Government cannot regulate itself out of a housing shortage. It must build its way out. That is the challenge and the test and that is where the focus should remain. Indeed, I find it extraordinary that some of the loudest voices calling for even more planning scrutiny of homeowners were remarkably silent when genuine planning abuses were occurring in years gone by. It is an awful pity that the Government, Fianna F\u00e1il in particular, was not nearly as energised about planning enforcement during the days of the Galway tent. It is an awful pity they were not displaying the same level of enthusiasm for regulation when developers appeared to enjoy extraordinary influence over planning and development decisions. It is an awful pity they were not demanding rigorous oversight when powerful interests seemed able to secure rezoning decisions and planning outcomes that benefited them enormously. Many people remember those years. People remember an era when ordinary citizens often felt disconnected, and some still do, from the planning process. People remember a culture in which development frequently appeared to proceed with inadequate scrutiny. The irony is striking. Today, the Government wants us to believe that the great planning challenge facing Ireland is the retired couple renting a self-catering property. Today, the Government wants us to believe that the central planning priority is the homeowner engaging in occasional short-term letting. Where was this zeal when genuine systemic planning issues demanded attention? Some still do today. Where was this relentless focus on compliance? Where was this passion for enforcement? Where was this determination to regulate? The public are entitled to ask those questions and they are entitled to receive answers. I want to be clear that this is not an argument against regulation. It is not an argument against registration, transparency or enforcement. Rules are important and compliance matters. Consumer protection matters, as does public confidence, but good regulation must and has to be proportionate and it must be evidence-based, targeted and fair. Above all, it must recognise that not every short-term letting arrangement is the same. Home sharing is not the same as commercial investment. A principal private residence is not the same as a professionally managed portfolio. An occasional host is not the same as a corporate operator. Legislation that blurs those distinctions risks doing real damage to ordinary people who are simply trying to supplement household income at a time of extraordinary financial pressure. Many homeowners are facing significant mortgage repayments. Many families are facing soaring costs. Rural tourism providers are struggling with rising operating expenses. For some, short-term letting provides an important supplementary income stream. For others, it supports local employment and local tourism. For many areas, particularly outside the major cities, self-catering accommodation forms an important part of the tourism offering. That reality should not be overlooked. Ireland's tourism product depends on diversity. Hotels play a critical role. Guesthouses play a critical role. Bed and breakfast accommodation plays a critical role. Self-catering accommodation plays a critical role, as does home sharing. A successful tourism sector requires all of these components working together. Therefore, while I support reasonable regulation, I do not support the assumption that every short-term letting property represents housing stock that would otherwise immediately enter the long-term rental market. That assumption is often overstated. It is not always supported by evidence and, in many cases, it simply does not reflect reality. The challenge for legislators is to distinguish carefully between properties that genuinely impact housing availability and those that do not. This requires nuance and balance. It requires a willingness to move beyond simplistic narratives. As legislators, we should be capable of that. The housing crisis, of course, deserves serious solutions and the public deserve serious solutions. Headlines will not solve homelessness. Scapegoating will not solve homelessness. Only increasing housing supply on a substantial and sustained basis will solve homelessness. That simply means building more homes. It means accelerating infrastructural delivery, addressing construction capacity and providing certainty within the planning system. As we know, of course, that also means that the local authorities have the resources they absolutely need. However, it means first and foremost focusing relentlessly on housing delivery. If we fail in those tasks, no amount of regulation of short-term lets will compensate. As this Bill progresses, I hope the Minister will carefully consider amendments that strengthen the distinction between large-scale commercial operators and genuine home-sharing arrangements. I hope the Minister will provide greater clarity regarding planning requirements. I hope he will commit to targeting enforcement where housing pressures are genuinely most severe, and I hope the Government will recognise that while short-term letting may form part of the wider housing debate, it is not the primary cause of our housing crisis. Ultimately, the answer to Ireland's housing emergency is not to search endlessly for new villains. The answer, once again, is to build more homes. It always has been and it always will be. Until we confront that reality honestly, the housing crisis will persist regardless of how many regulations we introduce. For that reason, while I recognise the intention behind this Bill and support targeted efforts to return the housing stock to areas of greatest need, I believe it requires further refinement, greater proportionality, stronger differentiation between categories of providers and a much clearer focus on genuine housing pressures in our major urban centres. That is the approach that will best serve both housing policy and tourism policy, that is the approach that will best serve communities, and that is the approach I urge the Minister and this House to adopt."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Conor Sheehan T\u00e1im bu\u00edoch don Aire agus don Aire St\u00e1it as a bheith anseo inniu. I welcome the opportunity to speak on this Bill as the Labour Party housing spokesperson. I also belatedly welcome the fact that the Government is moving, albeit with great reluctance, to regulate short-term lets, which is primarily to comply with EU data sharing rules, which obligate the Government to set up standardised digital registration system for short-term rental accommodation. There has been zero to little urgency from the Government on this despite the overwhelming evidence of the damage the unregulated short-term letting system in this country is causing to the private rental market. F\u00e1ilte Ireland set the infrastructure up for the register nearly four years ago and the previous Government initially said it had intended to do this in 2023, nearly four years ago. Threshold report after Threshold report has shown how the unchecked growth of short-term lets strips homes from long-term rental supply, drives up rents and forces workers, students and families out of their communities, and these warnings were repeatedly ignored. Now, it has taken the Government nearly two years to come up with these proposals that, albeit well intentioned, and I acknowledge that, have more holes in them than the hull of Titanic . It is nearly a decade ago that the Seanad first debated a Private Members' Bill by my colleague, former Minister of State, Kevin Humphreys, which would have ensured at the time that these lets would be classified as a commercial enterprise and would require planning permission, which would have reversed a trend that has exploded in urban areas of homes being used as hotels in the middle of a housing crisis. The restrictions that were introduced in 2019 by Eoghan Murphy could have worked if they had included any meaningful sanctions, which they did not. The issue here is with multibillion-euro hosting platforms robbing our cities and towns of housing and hollowing out communities with no structural enforcement or financial liabilities. It is not with individuals running an Airbnb or a small business. Politics is about choices and my priority and my choice here is housing and, unfortunately, what is being proposed here is not going to bring enough housing back into long-term use. I am disappointed that the Government has continued with its proposal to exempt towns of less than 20,000. This is a disappointing retreat from the initial proposed cap of 10,000. At present, we are in a situation where rents have spiralled out of control, where there are only 12 properties available to rent on Daft within HAP limits and when homelessness has never been higher. Our priority and political choice must be long-term housing. There are anywhere up to 35,000 properties advertised for rent as short-term lets in this country. Threshold carried out research in 2025, which showed up to 8,000 entire properties where the host operated more than one property. These are not humble B and B operators. These are landlords masquerading as hoteliers. They should be treated, from a legislative point of view, as professional accommodation providers. A serious response to this crisis must come with meaningful teeth. It must deal with the role of platforms in the first instance, and I welcome the fact the Bill will provide for a graduated enforcement framework with fixed-payment notices, summary offences and sanction regimes. I also welcome the financial sanctions that will include fines of up to 2% of annual worldwide turnover . That is welcome, because companies such as Airbnb continue to allow unregulated and, frankly, illegal properties to be advertised despite clear obligations under the 2019 legislation. That is unacceptable. Platforms need to be held accountable for what they host, and illegal short-term lets must be removed and not quietly tolerated. This is where I am more critical and where the Bill falls short. The two-year transition period for areas with a population of 20,000 is far too long. If you have been knowingly operating a short-term let that is not compliant, then you do not deserve two years in which to rectify what you know is wrong. That is simply a joke. This allows those who may ultimately fail to obtain planning permission to continue trading in breach of planning until 2029. As for the seven-year grandfather clause, that might as well be called a great-grandfather clause because of the length of time it will continue to lock properties out of the long-term rental market. Exempting operators who have run short-term lets for seven years contradicts the entire purpose of the Bill, which must be to return homes back into the long-term rental or purchase market during a severe housing crisis. This is where the Government is being captured by lobbyists. Let me be clear: the grandfathering or the long running of ipso facto hotels in a housing crisis will render this framework well-meaning but useless, with more holes in it than the Titanic . We also need to make sure that we protect Gaeltacht communities. T\u00e1 g\u00e9argh\u00e1 chomh maith le leas\u00fa chun ceantracha Gaeltachta a chosaint mar t\u00e1 fadhb ollmh\u00f3r ann sa Ghaeltacht maidir le l\u00f3ist\u00edn gearrthr\u00e9imhseach. Is bagairt ollmh\u00f3r \u00e9 l\u00f3ist\u00edn gearrthr\u00e9imhseach don Ghaeltacht. Beidh m\u00e9 in ann teacht ar ais chuig an leas\u00fa sin ag C\u00e9im an Choiste."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Albert Dolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Albert Dolan I welcome this Bill and the Government's intent to bring clear rules and transparency to short-term letting. However, we have to call a spade a spade: a blunt urban approach will not work in rural Ireland. The housing pressures in our major cities are entirely different from the reality on the ground in rural communities, and our planning framework must recognise that. In Galway East, from Kinvarra and Gort to Athenry, Tuam and Loughrea, tourism is an economic lifeline. When visitors stay in rural, self-catering accommodation, they sustain a village, the local pub, the cafe and independent attractions. In areas without major hotels, like those I represent in east Galway, these properties are our tourism infrastructure. The vast majority of these lets in settlements of fewer than 20,000 people are not really corporate operations. Rather, they are primarily dual-use properties such as renovated farm outbuildings, vernacular cottages or annexes within the curtilage of a family home. They are used by the family part of the year and let out the rest to supplement farm or household income. They were never going to be long-term residential rentals. It is important to recognise that. If an apartment in Dublin city is being rented out as an Airbnb and was originally built and granted planning permission as an apartment, that is how it should operate - as an apartment and not as a short-term let or as hotel accommodation. However, in rural Ireland, a lot of innovative ideas have come forward with old farm buildings being converted into really nice experiences for people to have an old Irish cultural experience. I welcome the two-year transition window and the distinction drawn in the national planning statement for towns of fewer than 20,000 people, but if we want families to step forward and regularise their position, we must address the planning mechanics. If the proposed retention process inadvertently reclassifies a home as a purely commercial property, the unintended consequences could be severe. It could lead to the devaluation of properties, the blocking of standard residential mortgages from the pillar banks, and the triggering of disproportionate commercial rates and certifications on what is essentially a part-time activity. If that happens, people simply will not engage and rural Ireland will risk losing vital tourism bed capacity overnight. That is where my main concern would be - if we were to lose capacity. In the spirit of constructive engagement, I put three specific questions to the Minister of State and the officials so that small operators have absolute certainty. On the planning status, will the simplified retention process grant permission as a residential property with ancillary commercial use rather than a full outright change to purely commercial use? On the finance and future sale elements, what explicit protections are being put in place with the Department of Finance and the pillar banks so that dual-use properties, particularly those within the curtilage of a primary residence, can still be bought and refinanced on standard residential mortgages without destroying their asset value? Regarding reversion, if an operator subsequently decides to stop short-term letting, will there be an equally simple automatic mechanism to revert the planning status back to standard residential without requiring an expensive, uncertain, full planning application? My objective here remains balanced. We have to protect long-term residential housing supply where the demand is critical while protecting rural tourism where it keeps communities alive. I urge the Minister of State to take these technical clarifications on board as the Bill progresses to ensure that rural enterprise is supported but not inadvertently undermined."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Kyne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Kyne.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Kyne.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Se\u00e1n Kyne The Minister of State is welcome. This Bill is a balance of competing demands and viewpoints on housing and tourism. It recognises that in our large urban areas, there are particular pressures where the housing situation is more concentrated and problematic. Therefore, the Government has decided as part of this Bill to support those individuals. However, rural Ireland is different. In my area of Galway West, particularly in the Connemara area, the Aran Islands and Inishbofin, it is a different scenario. Things have evolved over time to a situation whereby, without any great fuss being made, people started doing short-term lettings. That has not gone through the planning process. There was a genuine concern among many people that this would be a clamp-down, so I welcome the initiative in the Bill to protect these businesses, which is what they are, because tourism is hugely important as an indigenous industry in Connemara in particular and on our offshore islands. If there was an absolute clamp-down, as some would like, it would decimate those rural communities. We are talking about small rural communities where tourism is hugely important. I am not talking about the cities or large towns, but the small rural communities. For example, you have situations on the Aran Islands where somebody had their family home and they have since moved away but come back every so often. They come back at Christmas or for summer holidays with their family. In the intervening periods, they may rent the house out for a number of weeks. Those situations have to be protected. You have many situations whereby people may have inherited the family house. They want to keep that for their children and for the future, and in the meantime, they rent it out for short-term letting to generate a few euro for themselves. There is nothing wrong with using the assets you have. However, there is a difference in the cities and the Government has recognised that in this Bill. I have met with Gaeltacht groups. T\u00e1 a fhios agam go bhfuil deacrachta\u00ed acu agus go bhfuil siad ag lorg athruithe sa Bhille seo. T\u00e1 s\u00e9 sin ceart go leor agus beimid in ann \u00e9 sin a phl\u00e9. However, the Connemara and Aran Islands Tourism Network is very much concerned with what could have happened with this. The seven-year grandfathering is certainly welcome. The understanding that there is a difference between the urban and rural situations is also certainly welcome. This is a balanced approach. Some people have talked about delays. I suspect that the Department of housing may have a stronger view on this. The Department of tourism also recognises that tourism is a hugely important indigenous industry for rural Ireland, which needs to be protected. The impact of a blanket ending of short-term letting would have been huge and consequential in a negative fashion for those businesses. There are a number of things. There is reference to Galway city and suburbs. I assume that refers to the area of Galway city itself and those areas just outside. Even though they are rural, they would not be included in this because they are proximate to Galway city. There are some concerns about the timeline, the one month for registration. If someone has to get planning permission and that is pending, do they have to stop the listing come 1 January? There are a number of issues that need to be clarified as the Bill progresses, including on Committee Stage. However, the general thrust of the Bill, which presents a balanced approach to urban areas and large towns and smaller rural communities and offshore islands, is hugely important. I welcome the engagement the Minister has had and the decisions made by the Cabinet that we see in this Bill."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Keira Keogh I commend the Minister of State and the other Ministers in the Department on their work on this Bill. I come from a hospitality background and so I understand the enormous contribution that tourism makes, particularly in Mayo, from Westport and Achill down to Belmullet and Ballina, but also in communities right along the Wild Atlantic Way. However, I also acknowledge the very real housing pressures in Mayo and across the country. In my weekly constituency clinic, housing is consistently the biggest issue. Young people cannot find anywhere to rent. Families are searching for long-term accommodation. Employers are struggling to find housing for their workers. We must protect homes for people who want to live and work in our communities while also recognising that tourism accommodation supports local jobs, family businesses and people's right to earn an income from their property. Short-term letting is not the sole cause of our housing difficulties. This balanced approach is essential. I welcome this Bill's introduction of a national registration system for short-term lettings up to 21 consecutive nights. When I book a taxi and it is on its way, I can see the registration details of that taxi. When I get in, I can see the identification card of the driver. That gives me transparency, accountability and a system by which I can identify the operator. Even when I go to the country markets and buy a cake, I know food safety standards have been complied with. In the same vein, it is reasonable to expect similar transparency in the short-term accommodation sector. I also welcome that this new system will give us reliable data to work with. It will help local authorities and policymakers to better understand the scale, location and nature of short-term letting, which will then help us to make informed decisions around housing, tourism and regional development. We can all agree that the sector has transformed across the last decade. Our regulatory framework needs to reflect that. I welcome what is perhaps the most important thing, which is that we are moving closer to certainty for accommodation providers. Many constituents have contacted me since I was elected looking for certainty. I particularly think of a retired woman who lets out her chalet to supplement her pension. She was unsure about planning requirements, about the rules and about the future of her very small business. These are real people who need clear answers and certainty. When this legislation is enacted, we have to be really proactive about the requirements using straightforward language and not just in the online space. I welcome that F\u00e1ilte Ireland has been appointed as the body to oversee the registration system. I also welcome the confirmation we have been given that the registration fee will be \u20ac25. However, perhaps we could look at the application process. Right now, the Bill says it will be online only. I think of people like those women who are in their retirement and who may not be as tech savvy. There must be simple ways for them to do it. I also support proportionate inspections and enforcement by F\u00e1ilte Ireland alongside consistent obligations for hosts and online platforms. When accommodation is operated commercially, appropriate standards and accountability matter, especially for the tourists who are coming into the country. I know that registration and planning permission are two separate matters. The two have been a little bit conflated over recent months. I welcome the proposed transitional arrangements under section 47. These will allow for a 24-month period for people to comply with national planning requirements. I also welcome the measures that will make it easier for established operators of seven years or more to have that proposed presumption in favour of planning permission. I also welcome the introduction of the simplified retention application process. That is a vital step. However, I ask the Minister of State to look at whether the local authority planning departments will receive additional resources to deal with the volume of applications that might arise. We cannot promise providers more certainty and then leave them waiting months for decisions. I welcome this Bill. It offers an opportunity for greater transparency, fairer regulation and clarity. I know that Mayo needs thriving tourism and thriving communities as well as housing."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Gould There are many people who are running legitimate short-term lets but the Government's delays and chaotic approach to tackling this legislation have left them in limbo for years upon years. If this had been done years ago, there would have been certainty by now. People would have known the position they are in. Many of these homes could have had families in them by now. I just checked today and there are 404 entire homes in Cork city on Airbnb for January. I am not talking about west Cork, east Cork and north Cork but about Cork city alone. I also checked Daft today and there are only 158 homes to rent in Cork today. The problem is clear. Those statistics speak for themselves. There are countless families in Cork who are looking for somewhere to rent. These families are being driven out of their homes by the rental legislation the Government brought in earlier this year. People have been given notice to quit but have nowhere to go. The Government has driven people out of their homes and they now have nowhere to go. Does the Minister of State know what the crazy thing about this situation is? There are families in emergency accommodation, hotels and bed and breakfast accommodation. Children are growing up in such accommodation. At the same time, there are tourists coming to Ireland, including to Cork city, and staying in the homes these families should be in. The system is upside down. The tourists are staying in the homes and the homeless are staying in the bed and breakfast accommodation and hotels. How can that be right? That is a fact on the ground at the moment. I was contacted by a woman today. She has been in homeless accommodation for over a year. She is a very young woman. She is seemingly trying to get her life back together. She has no family support. She does everything for herself. She is not looking for anything special or anything extra. All she wants is to be able to rent a safe home and to have a key for her own front door and to be able to lock it. She wants to build a home for herself. Is that too much to ask? People are now living with their parents in their 20s, their 30s and even their 40s. How can it be right for adults to be living at home with their parents because they cannot find anywhere to rent? If they did find anywhere to rent, the rents are so high that they are blocked from going in. These houses should be made available to those people and the thousands of others across the State who are looking to rent or who are in emergency accommodation in bed and breakfast accommodation and hotels. We have short-term lets in places like Blarney Street, North Main Street and Dennehy's Cross. The Government has failed to tackle them. That is where families should be living. Instead, the Minister of State and her Government have tied themselves up in knots. It is not because they are worried about the small business owners or rural Ireland. It is because they are worried about the big corporate companies and agencies that are always at the heart of their decision making. They are tying up properties in Cork and in many other towns and cities. As always, the Government has done everything possible to protect those who are only in it for profit and for greed. When will this Government bring in legislation that puts people at its heart?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Roderic O'Gorman For too long, the State simply has not known with any degree of certainty how many homes are being used for short-term letting, where they are located or what impacts they are having on local housing markets. That is not a sustainable basis for policymaking in the middle of a housing crisis. We have to be honest about what this means. Housing is not just another commodity. In a housing crisis, every full house advertised as an Airbnb let is a potential family home lost. When teachers cannot find accommodation near the schools where they work, when healthcare workers cannot find rental properties and when young families are forced to leave areas where they have roots because housing is unavailable, we have a social and economic problem that requires intervention. Housing must, first and foremost, serve the needs of communities. That does not mean demonising every short-term letting host, because many are letting space within their own homes, which are already occupied. However, it does mean recognising that in a housing emergency, those who make public policy have a responsibility to ensure that homes are used in a way that supports sustainable communities as well as tourism. It has become clear in many counties that things have gone too far in one direction and that the Government has been too slow to address the imbalance in that regard. If a property is being offered for short-term letting, the State should know that it exists, local authorities should know where it is located, planning authorities should be able to determine whether it is operating within the law and policymakers should be able to understand the impact that short-term letting is having on housing supply, tourism accommodation and the local community. A clear lesson from the past decade of housing policy is that planning rules without enforcement are not enough. Ireland already has planning requirements relating to short-term letting. The difficulty has been that local authorities have had no effective way of identifying which properties are operating, where they are located or whether they have the required planning permission. The result has been a system that has really struggled to command any degree of confidence. There is a question to be asked and answered in this Bill, which is whether the register will have an impact if the Government does not create an enforcement framework around it. From our experience to date with the vacant sites register, it is fair to say right now that this is unlikely. A register that is not backed up by proper inspection, verification and enforcement risks becoming little more than a catalogue of errors. The success of this legislation will depend not simply on the collection of information but on the willingness and capacity of the State to act on that information. F\u00e1ilte Ireland must have the resources to monitor compliance, local authorities must have the resources to investigate breaches and platforms must be required to remove listings that do not comply with this law. There is one aspect of this Bill that I have a particular issue with. As we know, the legislation provides for different treatment depending on whether a property is located inside or outside larger urban areas, with a transitional approach applying outside the 25 built-up areas with populations of more than 20,000. This Kilgarvan carve out - I have no idea why it is being called that - suggests that in certain parts of the country some people are more deserving of housing than others. The evidence suggests that some of the most acute impacts of short-term lettings are not only found in our largest towns and cities but also in rural communities, coastal areas and in parts of the Gaeltacht where housing supply is already under enormous strain. By raising the population threshold to 20,000, the Government is showing a serious lack of backbone. This leaves only 24 towns on the island able to avail of new short-term letting laws and it leaves most of the towns in Ireland completely at the mercy of Airbnb or other short-term let companies. This points to a deeper trend on the part of this Government of leaving rural communities to fend for themselves. The housing crisis is just as devastating in rural Ireland as it is in built-up areas but what the Government is saying is that some places deserve housing more than others. Counties with majority small towns and villages are suffering exponentially due to short-term rentals taking over the market. Figures have shown that there were 1,009 short-term rentals in Kerry but only 22 homes advertised to rent. The situation is equally dire in other counties. In Clare, there were 532 short-term lets available but only 19 long-term rentals, while in Donegal there were 24 short-term lets for every single long-term rental. It is also imperative to protect our Gaeltacht areas, which are already disproportionately affected by the explosion in the number of short-term lettings. Between May 2019 and September of this year, the total number of Airbnbs in Gaeltacht areas increased by 88%, which is a completely soul-destroying number for those looking for long-term lets in their local communities. There is a distinct need for this legislation, as drafted, to be amended to protect Gaeltacht areas specifically because short-term lets act directly against regions focused on the sustainable renewal and regeneration of the Irish language. This Bill will ultimately be measured by one clear metric. Does it help to make more homes available for people who need them? We do not need more empty administration, yet another register or another report. We need homes for families, for workers and for people who want to stay in the communities they grew up in. If we are serious about tackling the housing crisis we must be equally serious about enforcement where serious problems exist. Ultimately, homes should be for living in, communities should be places where people can build their lives and public policy should put those principles first."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ruth Coppinger It is unbelievable that we are discussing short-term lets in the midst of a housing crisis that has been going on for about 13 years, if not longer. Some of the figures are stark. While short-term lets are not the cause of the housing crisis, they are certainly contributing to the problems caused by this Government and that which preceded it not building enough affordable and social homes for the past number of years. It is estimated by one consultancy that there are 28,342 short-term lets available but that there are only 12 houses available through HAP, which says it all. There are ten times as many short-term lets as full-time rentals, and 75% of these homes are often empty. They are sitting idle during a housing crisis. Having listened to some TDs talking here, I am obliged to wonder about their priorities. How much tourism do we actually need? We need homes for everybody, including essential workers, teachers, nurses and all of the people who we cannot get to remain in the country. We are being so flaithi\u00falach in our legislation governing short-term lets. The majority of them are in high-demand housing areas. In Dublin, for example, there are around 2,000 short-term lets but only 1,200 long-term rentals available at the moment. I want to make a very quick point about rural areas, because I have heard some TDs talking about that. There is a homelessness and housing crisis in rural areas. I know so many people who are affected by it. In the Gaeltacht specifically, we have been asked by Conradh na Gaeilge to take into account that there are 100 times more short-term lets than full-time rentals available and not to allow this grace period to apply in Gaeltacht areas in order to protect the Irish language, apart from anything else. I want to talk about my constituency of Dublin West, which has always been a housing and homelessness blackspot. It is a very young constituency with a great many migrant workers. There are several hundred short-term lets available in Dublin West but practically no HAP accommodation. There are 97 short-term lets available in Dublin 15. I could not get the figures for Ashtown, but there are nearly 300 in Cabra and Glasnevin, some of which would be in Ashtown. That is nearly 100 houses that could be available to rent but are not. I spent last Saturday with a homeless couple - I am sure lots of TDs could say the same - trying to help them navigate the humiliating system that we have in this country. People present as homeless and often get a terrible reception. They are sent off to get loads of forms together. They might have to couch surf or sleep in their car while they are waiting. They go through these hoops to get onto homeless HAP but then there is no HAP accommodation available. It is nearly embarrassing explaining this system to people. What is the point in trying to jump through hoops to get HAP when there is no HAP accommodation available? One of the reasons for this is that people see the profits that can be made from short-term letting. I do not have time to go into the detail of the Bill now. It should worry people that the only thing that we can do to help anyone who is homeless now is HAP and there is just none available. Meanwhile, we have TDs standing up in the D\u00e1il talking about how important it is to allow people to profit off tourism. I want to talk about the response to the housing crisis in my last couple of minutes. One of the huge announcements that has been made is the Dunsink urban area plan. Everybody heard about it over the course of the summer. I am completely behind the idea of developing this land for affordable and social housing. Some 90% of it is in the ownership of Fingal council, and the rest is in private ownership. However, it has to be done properly, and the omens are not very good in the way this is being dealt with. To plan a new town, there should be consultation and discussions in the areas that are going to be impacted. There should be time to hear submissions and to allow feedback from councillors. I was writing a submission the day I was going on my summer holiday, that was how short a timeframe there was. There has to be, particularly in sensitive greenbelt or rural areas, protection of rural lanes and villages like Dunsinea Lane, Scribblestown Lane and the Tolka Valley. Also, the key thing is that we do not want a policy of \"pack 'em in\" either. The density rose in this case from 7,000 up to 18,500. Seven thousand was indicated in a motion that I put in the council two years ago when I was on it-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle With respect, Deputy, I am not sure that any of that could really go into this."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ruth Coppinger It is very relevant to short-term lets - and then suddenly the density increased. It is about our response to the housing crisis, short-term lets and the problems they are causing for finding accommodation in the country. I really feel that this plan should be mentioned in that context. The only way to respond to the housing crisis is through the local authorities, and a State-sponsored agency should be set up to deal with this emergency, including taking information about the short-term lets in an area and whether there should be a complete ban on them in certain areas where there is such a housing and homeless crisis. In the case of plans like Dunsink, it has to be balanced. We all know there has to be transport, schools, infrastructure and things that communities need to thrive. It is all linked in. We have a housing crisis, and the Government is responding with a very light-touch regulation Bill in terms of these Airbnbs and short-term lets. This is coming from Europe. It is not even coming from the Government. It has been told that it needs to deal with this, and this is causing havoc throughout Europe. We see local people objecting in Barcelona and cities everywhere as gentrification takes over and shoots up the prices. We have seen the massive movement that is taking place in Spain in response to an 80-year-old woman being taken out of her long-term accommodation for a short-term let. That is why the problems are all interlinked."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett The problems are interlinked. I agree with that and the points Deputy Coppinger raised are relevant because the connecting point between the short-term let scandal and the wider housing crisis is whether housing is built for people or profit. That is the connection. It is simple. Housing for people who need a roof over their heads should take priority over housing built to make a profit, whether it is short-term lets or another profiteering approach to property. I was frankly shocked in the housing committee yesterday. I knew about the RT\u00c9 site, but we got the details when we met Cairn Homes. I just thought that it is incredible that the RT\u00c9 site, a publicly owned site, has been sold to one of the most profitable housing developers which profits from building housing on a public site and all we are getting back on what used to be a 100% public site is 10% social housing, and I was quite shocked to find out that there would be no affordable housing. I do not even know how it managed that. Somebody should look into that. I presume there has been loophole it has managed to use to get around the 10% affordable requirement, but that should be 100% social and affordable housing. Ultimately, the solution to the housing crisis is to build social and affordable housing, to do it at scale and to direct the resources of the State and the available construction labour, which is finite, to building houses for people not for profit. It is in that context that we should address the short-term letting situation. It is good that the Government is addressing this, but to be honest, it is mostly to the credit of protestors in Barcelona and across Europe protesting against Airbnb, short-term lets and the impact they are having on the housing market and how that then influenced the European Union in order to issue directives and so on that have finally worked their way through to the Irish Government having to legislate to deal with the problem. Apart from the wider preference for profit instead of people in terms of short-term letting, the problem is summed up to me by the fact that if you go on daft.ie today there are 1,300 properties to rent for people who need a roof over their head, but according to Indecon, 32% of the 28,000 short-term lets that it found in Ireland are in Dublin. That is 9,000 in Dublin. There are 1,300 for people who are in emergency accommodation or trying to find HAP accommodation or for ordinary working people going out to try to find rental accommodation they can afford, and most of them are probably too expensive and will not take HAP, or are too expensive for HAP, but there are 9,000 short-term lets. Imagine if the 9,000 short-term lets were available for rent at affordable prices. Imagine the impact that would have on the housing crisis in Dublin. It would be massive. It would not solve it all, but it would make a big difference. It would probably account for most of the people in emergency accommodation at the moment. Just think about that. There are kids who this Christmas will be going through their second Christmas in emergency accommodation. It is disgusting and unacceptable, but the Government is still balancing that against the right of somebody to make profit. Let us be clear about it: it is not as if they would not make a fair bit of money from just renting it out in the normal rental market. They would make a lot. Look at average rents, they are outrageous, but no, that is not good enough for them. They want to rent them at three and four times the profit. We then give exceptions in rural areas because of pressure from certain people, which is affecting the housing crisis in rural areas because people want to make more profit. I repeat that point. If people who are currently doing short-term letting were told that they could not do it in rural areas or anywhere else, they could still profit from renting it out to people who need housing in their areas, but that is not good enough for them. They want to make more profit. They say, \"What about tourism?\" How many people come here each year? It is 6.5 million; more than the entire population of the country. It puts the so-called scapegoating or blaming of asylum seekers for our problems into perspective. There were 13,000 asylum applications last year; a tiny number. There are 6.5 million tourists every year. Do not get me wrong, I am not against tourism, but do we need to expand it more? Should it be a priority over people who need a roof over their head and for their families? Should we be building hotels and making profit rather than building affordable housing for people affected by the housing crisis, including the working people in this country who cannot afford anywhere to live and the young people qualifying in the health professions who are going to be out on strike next week because they are thinking of leaving the country because they do not think they will be able to afford to live here? I know what I think is the priority and what should be the priority. It should be their right to have an affordable roof over their heads and for it not to be a struggle to buy or rent a property, not just for their sakes so that they do not end up in homeless accommodation or in a stressed state trying to pay unaffordable rents, but also for the sake of the country, because if they leave, as many of them are, it is going to impact, and is impacting, on all of us. In fact, it is one of the big reasons there are going to be strikes next week. It is not just about pay. It is about the affordability of accommodation and the availability of housing for working people in this country. It needs to be enforced. It needs to happen. There should be no exemptions. I do not know why over the shop stuff is, for example, being exempted, but there has to be serious enforcement of this stuff and there should be no exemptions in rural areas or anywhere else."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Cooney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Cooney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Cooney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Joe Cooney I commend the Minister and his team on bringing this legislation forward. Short-term lets are a very important part of tourism accommodation in our coastal and rural communities. Many are operated by families using cottages, farm buildings or pods in the curtilage of their family farms or homes. They support tourism jobs, family businesses, restaurants, caf\u00e9s and activity providers which all depend on visitors coming to stay in these areas and experiencing all they have to offer. However, in many coastal towns and villages in my constituency, I am aware of former council houses and family homes that are no longer part of the residential market unfortunately. We simply cannot ignore the impact of an unregulated short-term letting sector on the sustainability of these communities. It is not good enough. Ironically, it also has a knock-on impact on the ability of tourism businesses to operate due to the lack of accommodation for their staff. A house cannot be two things at once. It cannot be a profitable short-term rental and at the same time an affordable home for a young local family to stay in the community where they grew up. In many coastal communities, the high financial returns available from short-term letting have put house prices beyond the mortgage that local wages can support unfortunately. We are not simply debating tourism accommodation. We are debating whether local people can still afford to buy a home in the community where they were born and raised. That is unbalanced, not sustainable and it is why regulation is necessary. However, I accept there is a big difference between a second home being bought and operated as commercial tourism accommodation and a farming family letting a cottage on their farm or a family earning some additional income from a granny flat or a pod in their garden. These do not remove homes from the housing stock and are very unlikely to be put up for sale or rent, but they help families make ends meet and they contribute positively to local tourism. I believe there is a strong case for sensible carve-outs in those circumstances but we must hold a firm line on a couple of situations. Former council houses should not be eligible for change of use. Equally, where planning permission was granted on the basis of permanent occupation, those conditions should be respected. They exist to protect local communities and local housing supply, and should not be undermined. The Bill is ultimately about getting the balance right, supporting tourism, supporting rural enterprise and supporting local communities while ensuring that local people can afford to live in the place they call home which is very important for those people. With sensible refinements, I believe this legislation can achieve that balance."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pa Daly Chualamar \u00f3 fhoireann de chuid Chol\u00e1iste na Tr\u00edon\u00f3ide ag cruinni\u00fa chomhchoiste inn\u00e9, agus ag an gcruinni\u00fa poibl\u00ed i mBaile an Fheirt\u00e9araigh coic\u00eds \u00f3 sh\u00edn, go bhfuil fadhb mh\u00f3r sa Ghaeltacht mar gheall ar na Airbnbs. At that meeting we heard that there were n\u00edos m\u00f3 n\u00e1 1,000, more than 1,000, Airbnb offerings in the Corca Dhuibhne west Kerry area. There are about 5,000 houses there. At the same time, people who have returned to the area having lived abroad for a number of years or are moving into the area to take up employment mostly in the tourism sector cannot find a place to rent. I have spoken to some of the tourism providers and I know that they are obliged to provide accommodation for their own staff in their accommodation but also in purchased houses in the area so that their staff have a place to go and they are offered to them at a more reasonable rent. The mean price for a house in the area is the \u20ac400,000 in a relatively out of the way place even though there is a massive tourism demand. There is no doubt that the percentage of accommodation offered on Airbnb in the area is disproportionate and not sustainable into the future. The report stated that there was a paucity of engagement with the realities on the ground and there is no doubt about that. I am not saying this is an easy fix; it is quite a complicated area. Even within my constituency, nobody has any objection to somebody putting their grandmother's house, their relative's house or rooms in their own place on Airbnb. That is not a difficulty. However, in certain parts of the county, including Killarney and Dingle, we do not want to have ten houses in a cul-de-sac with eight of them offered on Airbnb. That is not good for the people who had a legitimate expectation that they would have neighbours as opposed to people coming in for weekends and leaving the area again with the houses possibly not being maintained or being part of the community. There is consensus in the west Kerry area. We have Government policy, which is largely unregulated today. We would not have any problem if we had local people renting out, but that is not the case. Sykes Holiday Cottages have 25,000 cottages worldwide. They are right in the veins of the community and of the housing situation in the Kerry area. There is no doubt that a more sustainable policy is needed. We need a sustainable community for the population in Corca Dhuibhne because there is also the language vulnerability there. We heard at the meeting that since 2011 regular and daily use of the Irish language in that area has decreased from something in the 30s to 28%. There is a risk that by 2050 the language could die unless some action is taken or there is some State intervention. As one business owner in west Kerry told me, the cultural piece has to be taken into account mar t\u00e1 an teanga ag fulaingt. As I said, nobody is objecting to certain rural sustainable tourism at all but the Government is making a mess of the situation. The 20,000 rule is completely arbitrary and is not based on any objective criteria. It should be scrapped for the sake of local housing needs and local homeless services. As one of the other contributors said, former council houses should not be used for short-term letting. I agree with the amendment that has been proposed about the two-year rule. The grandfather clause also has to be reviewed. The Government needs to examine this again in order to provide better and more sustainable communities and avoid plummeting numbers in GAA clubs because of the proliferation of properties offered on Airbnb."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Collins The Minister has made an absolute shambles of this Bill from start to bloody finish. With no disrespect to the Minister of State, Deputy Smyth, the senior Minister, Deputy Burke, should be here for the full reading of the Bill. He has made such a hames of it along the way and he has been kicked around so much by the Minister for housing that the Bill before us now will do untold damage to tourism in the country. It is his job to protect tourism. We know he wants to tax hotel beds, which is another attack on tourism; do not ask me why. It is not good enough for him to walk out of here tonight after a little more than an hour of the debate after we begged and pleaded him to bring this Bill, which has had so many false attempts. It is like a horse in the Grand National falling at the fence. He has fallen at the fence several times and this time he has really fallen and let the people of Ireland down, mainly people in rural areas and mainly women who provide this fantastic service. One woman sent me a message today. She said: I thought Peter Burke had said there would be a caveat put in if the Airbnb was located in our principal private residence instead of us being bundled in together. We are not taking from the housing market. We will never long-term let. They are effectively closing us down over a two-year period with their commercial planning requirements and many of us only doing business six months. It is simply not viable to open for the winter period with shared MPRNs and energy, kerosene and electricity costs. I could go on. There are messages after messages because I have been very strong on this and I will tell the Minister why. I seldom talk about my parents here. My mother did Airbnb in the 1970s and I saw what I did. It reared us. A woman working at home on a farm did Airbnb on the side and that is exactly the same model used by many of the people with whom I held public meetings in west Cork over the past year and a half. They have brought that up with me. It was a little side income to educate the children. I am very disappointed in the people from Dublin who have spoken here. They are living in a bubble. They do not understand how rural Ireland works. I am lucky. I live in rural Ireland. I live in a beautiful place west of Schull on the way to Goleen surrounded by people in Durrus and Ballydehob and so many more all the way out east to Courtmacsherry. I could go on - Kilbrittain, Timoleague and all those areas that are trying to do a little bit of business. That is all they ask for here but this is the very thing the Government is trying to do regarding bringing in planning regulations to those rural people. I listened to different TDs here today. Regarding the Social Democrats - good God almighty - its leader is from west Cork, which besides Kerry is the capital of tourism of this country, but she and her party have done nothing but wipe out tourism. I listened to Deputy Gibney, who said we have to mind the people who are working in caf\u00e9s because they need places to stay. Just a few months ago, her party did everything in its power to block the VAT rate cut, of which I did approve, to save caf\u00e9s and restaurants. The Social Democrats tried to do them out so it was trying to get rid of the workers in the first place. That will tell us what a dream bubble it is living in. Deputy Hearne spoke about a constituent in Santry. Yes, it was a terrible story involving a person aged 80 who had no home. That is a shocking story and I fully understand that but does he think that the people of Durrus must provide that person with a house? That is not going to work. This Bill is unworkable. Government TDs are coming in tonight trying to put out a very nice speech that might go up in social media this evening. Deputy Kyne was elected. Is he going back to Connemara because I will call a vote against this Bill tonight? Is he going to go back to the constituents of his I met when I was canvassing there who told me this cannot go ahead and that it will lead to the ruination of a small business that actually has people going down for a little bit of food calling to the restaurant, caf\u00e9 or pub? This is all about tourism. Is he going to go back to them and say \"I'm going to vote against you tonight\" because that is exactly what he will do? They will speak out of one side of their mouth and come in here and do the other thing and that is not good enough. I listened to Deputy Coppinger, although I suppose I should not have listened because I never heard such silliness in all my life. She asked how much tourism is needed in the country. In the name of God almighty, what is wrong with a person who could say that in a country where tourism is the largest indigenous industry and biggest regional employer? It is easy to know that they want everybody on the dole and everybody to get a free house but that is not how the real world works. The people I represent are the workers, in particular women, who wanted that little side income but were proud to offer a fantastic service - a dream service - that the Government is now going to ruin. Regarding Sinn F\u00e9in, Deputy Conway-Walsh spoke very much from the heart, as do I, and I would agree with her but Deputy \u00d3 Broin then came along and spiked that by saying he does not want the two-year compliance rule. We do not want it at all but he wants to bring in the rules tomorrow morning. That will lead to the ruination of short-term lets in rural Ireland and that is the point."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett I have to correct the Deputy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Collins I am talking now. The Deputy will get her time to talk. There is more people who spoke here tonight. The only one who spoke here today-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cathy Bennett The Deputy is taking advantage of-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Collins The only one that spoke here today who understood exactly what this is going to do is Deputy Lawlor. He said we should concentrate on areas with the largest incidence of homelessness. That is where this Bill should have been pointed at and not at the small rural communities that deliver for people and continue to deliver a little bit of tourism and financial aid at a difficult time. It might be a little side building on a farm or whatever. That is what needs to be done on this Bill and changes need to be made. The Minister said that he proposes to engage constructively. Independent Ireland have 11 amendments tabled for Committee Stage next week. Is he going to accept any of those or will he reject them all one by one? Is that working constructively with the people out there? I am not putting them down for myself because I do not do Airbnb. I am putting them down on behalf of my constituents and on behalf of the people who have delivered the fantastic service down through the years. I think the Government misread the whole situation. It is understandable that guidelines could be needed for cities and bigger towns but not the small rural communities. Deputy O'Connor is the Cathaoirleach of the committee that will be dealing with this next week and I sincerely hope he will. He said there are different lanes and he is right. There are different lanes in relation to this. Take the example of the Beara Peninsula where I live. There is no hotel there. Now the Government is going to do away with the chance that people had to stay in a community like that if it is going to continue with the role it is playing. Deputy Devlin spoke about how F\u00e1ilte Ireland will have enforcement powers. He is happy with the two-year period. He spoke about D\u00fan Laoghaire. I am certainly not happy because I speak on behalf of the rural people of west Cork. Deputy Dolan said that what is needed in urban Ireland will not work in rural Ireland. Tonight, he will get a chance to vote to make sure that he does support us and I hope he does not change his mind. The whole point I am making here is that this is poorly thought through. It is an absolute shambles from start to finish. The Minister was caught left, right and centre on numerous occasions. It looks to me like Deputy O'Connor has no understanding of rural tourism in Ireland and tonight, he is going to bury it and the recovery after this is going to cost millions."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Richard O'Donoghue To say I am disappointed in this Bill is an understatement from a person who has grown up in rural Ireland and who appreciates what urban and rural can actually do together. The law the Government is trying to bring in here will actually desecrate rural Ireland again. The last Bill the Government tried to put through regarding energy costs reduced the carbon tax on kerosene and gas but it only reduced it on gas piped to buildings. In other words, most of rural Ireland will not qualify for that. The Government forgot to mention gas provided by the likes of Flogas and Calor Gas that is in drums so it excluded this gas, which is used in rural areas. That is what it has excluded. The Government has done the same thing with Airbnbs. Go around Limerick city and county and try to get a hotel to stay at. We have the Ryder Cup coming to the area. What is going happen there? What will happen to the millions upon millions of euro that this is going to provide to people in Limerick, Kerry, Clare and Tipperary and all the surrounding areas? What is it going to generate for the people around here? People who come here for a short stay use Airbnbs. Number one, they might not be able to afford a hotel. They might be coming on a budget holiday so they go to the Airbnbs where they can travel around different places. They support all the communities - all the shops and publicans. How many people are going to pull out of it now? Then we look at the planning conditions for people who have had Airbnbs for over seven years. The Government says they can look for retention. This means that they come under the current building regulations, which means it costs thousands. Where once a person could get planning permission and an engineer to do a planning application for him or her for \u20ac3,000, the cost for a house is now \u20ac7,000 or \u20ac8,000 so it is going to be a cost on something that is already broken. We cannot get engineers to do applications. What is going to happen now? Costs are going to go up. What happened when everybody came from Ukraine and we were trying to house them? Every hotel in Ireland was full. The Government took more hotels out of the market, which left fewer hotels. What happened? Prices rose. We are fighting to try to get that business back after we were able to get them into different towns, villages and cities. At one stroke of a pen, it affected the one thing that was supporting places in rural Ireland - getting people up into the Galtee Mountains and other places along with the greenways we were talking about. People want to travel around Ireland. What supports that? Airbnbs. What has the Government done? \"Yerra, that does not matter. We will destroy them.\" One ruling does all. That is what has been wrong with this Government from the very start. This is what it has done. It has destroyed this country and now it is destroying rural Ireland."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Nicholas Gogarty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Paul Nicholas Gogarty I do not think a speaker from Aont\u00fa is coming, but if one does, he can have my slot. I welcome the opportunity to speak on Second Stage of this Bill. I have been involved in it on Committee Stage for the past year and a half, watched all the discussions on it take place and listened to the presentations from various property owners, especially those from rural Ireland and families who had rented out a house next to a new house they had built or who had a couple of properties that will never be rented out commercially. There is a little bit of a dichotomy in this debate. On the one hand, this is being used to tackle the real availability of houses that could be brought out in urban areas. For example, I think it was Inside Airbnb that tracked that, of the 6,637 listings in Dublin, 61% were considered to be entire homes and apartments, which is about 4,050 full properties removed from the housing market. Now, you have to add a caveat there because, obviously, if the property is your principal primary residence, you can still rent out an entire home for a period, and some of them might be rented out in that way. Basically, though, as regards the multi-listing hosts in Dublin, over 50% of Dublin's short-term rental supply was controlled by hosts who managed multiple properties. Therefore, in areas like Dublin, and probably Cork and Galway, although I do not know as much about them, there are properties that could be brought straight away into the rental market to help with our housing crisis, and we have a massive housing crisis, as we know. As I said during committee debates, however, this tries to crack a walnut with a sledgehammer. While it tries to free up properties in the traditional rent pressure zones, it also puts undue pressure on the people whose livelihoods and partial incomes have been created over generations in many cases by this. Now, there are a couple of outlier towns like Killarney, a big tourist town that is over the population threshold, that need some form of support to allow for people who have had properties for some time, and we hope that there are some loopholes in that regard, but as regards the overall legislation, I will table a number of amendments. I have actually submitted some already. The overall onus on the smaller operator is way too high. The European legislation basically said we needed to register short-term lets; it did not put any other serious obligation on us. F\u00e1ilte Ireland could have just set up a system whereby someone could say that they had a property and it was rented out as a short-term let for up to 14 or 21 days, or no more than 90 or 120 days in a year, it ticked the box and it met certain health and safety standards. Instead, however, we first changed the planning laws, which, on paper at least, require operators to double-check with the local authority and put a lot of pressure on the local authorities to say that the properties met planning regulations. I will give the example of a multigenerational holiday home, whereby there are relatives who own a holiday home. They may have had connections with the area originally, so they buy the holiday home in the area and it is used over a considerable number of nights throughout a year, but there are periods when it is not used because all of these families have relatives, work, careers, etc. The house is left idle for possibly six weeks to two months in the winter at different times. If that house is not occupied and heated, it will fall into a state of disrepair, so many families who have a holiday home would rent out the home for a week or three nights or two nights over a weekend. It might cover the cost of the house insurance, which is a bonus, but it will cover the cost of keeping the house going in order that when the family are able to go back in on bank holiday weekends, Easter, October or the new year, the house is in good nick. Those people are not professional landlords. They do not want to be professional landlords. They will never operate a property on that basis. Similarly, and I have met so many of them during the discussions, there are family members who built a new house on their family land and the old house is still there. They did up the old house a little and they have relatives coming over at Christmas or they may have a few coming over at summer. They will never rent out that property to a tenant and get into a legal agreement with a tenant, so what do they do? They rent out the property because they are living close by. They make a few quid out of it. They are fully tax compliant, they record all the income and they meet all the requirements. In recent years, going back to 2018, they have been required to make sure that, without having changed anything of the property, it has to have a change of use, That is onerous in itself, but the registration fees that have been proposed also add too much to the pressure on people in rural communities. Some of them are involved in farming, some have part-time jobs, some have full-time jobs and commutes. They have this as an extra income stream and it is making use of a property, bringing tourists into the area and generating some form of income for people in an area, and they are being penalised. We can talk about whether or not we have a derogation for two years to allow people to get everything in order. My personal view is that this is about the small people, not the commercial landlords who are basically cheating the system by renting out urban properties as Airbnbs and who own five or six of them. This was not the case before the regulations were ever looked at. I am talking about going back to the nineties or the eighties. There were families who operated properties like that way back, and there should be some form of derogation for them, but not for people who started doing this in recent years in the likes of Dublin, for example, because they saw it as a way to make a massive killing without having any of the legal obligations of being a landlord or being registered with the Residential Tenancies Board. I 100% agree that we need to bring those properties back onto the market, but we also have to realise, for rural Ireland in particular, that there are properties that will never be brought onto the market. If anything, those properties will still be used but they will cost the families more to operate them. They will not be used as often or, if the families do end up having to fork out, it will come at a financial burden to them at a time when we are so uncertain in terms of tourist numbers coming into Ireland. We need to amend the legislation as proposed, not to harm the little people, in order that we can use the legislation to deal with those who are cheating the system."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Edward Timmins I compliment Deputy Gogarty on his contribution. It covered a lot of points I fully agree with, although I will cover some different points. His phrase that this is very much a sledgehammer to crack a nut was in my head as well. It is a one-size-fits-all approach and it does not work. Short-term lets provide the only form of tourist accommodation in many parts of rural Ireland. They bring tourists from all over the world to places that would otherwise never receive tourists. I know because I live in a village in rural west Wicklow and I have witnessed what these short-term lets bring. These industries were here before the housing shortage and they will be here long after the housing shortage is gone. They supply accommodation where hotels will never be built. They offer a unique and authentic experience to the tourist and show Ireland at its best. We cannot destroy an industry on the basis that doing so may increase the housing supply by some small amount. I know a poll was carried out across a number of host groups across the country and determined that, on average, 93.5% of hosts cannot or will not release their properties for long-term letting. The legislation will, therefore, have little or no impact. According to F\u00e1ilte Ireland's data, self-catering accommodation is the second-largest provider of tourism beds in Ireland. Hotels provide 161,000 beds, while holiday lets provide 139,000 beds. This is at a time when hotel rates in many areas of Ireland are exorbitant. Hosts have no issue with a register. The whole area of planning permission, however, must be streamlined and explained. When will hosts need to demonstrate that they have planning permission? That question needs to be answered. These people provide a wonderful service. We must not bog them down with red tape and detailed planning applications. Additionally, the window for registration is only one month, namely, December. Can we come up with a list of questions and answers so that hosts know what is required? They are very much in the dark. Can the Department meet the Irish Self-Catering Federation, ISCF? The impact of releasing this rental accommodation into the long-term market will be negligible. The impact on tourism, people's incomes and rural Ireland is clear. This Government proudly supports rural Ireland, small businesses, tourism and Ireland's unique hospitality offering. Short-term lets are all these things rolled into one. I ask that the Government please support them."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Cahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Cahill I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate on the Short-Term Letting and Tourism Bill 2026. I recognise the importance of having a proper regulatory framework for short-term letting in this country. We need accurate data, greater transparency and appropriate oversight of the sector. I also recognise the very real housing challenges facing communities throughout Ireland. However, I want to make one thing very clear. In addressing our housing difficulties, we must be careful not to create another problem for rural communities, such as those in Kerry, and small tourism operators and families that depend on this sector to make ends meet. This is particularly important in my county, where tourism is not simply an industry but the backbone of the local economy in many towns and villages. It supports thousands of jobs, sustains local businesses and provides an important source of income for families throughout the county. Short-term letting is an essential part of that tourism offering. Kerry has a very different tourism landscape from Dublin and some of the larger urban centres. We have rural villages, coastal communities, farms and isolated areas where traditional accommodation options are limited. For many families, providing a small amount of self-catering accommodation is not a major commercial operation. It might be a converted garage, a small annexe, a room or an additional unit on the family farm. For some, that accommodation generates \u20ac2,000 to \u20ac3,000 over the summer months. That might seem like a relatively insignificant amount to some people, but for an older person or rural household in Kerry, that money can pay for heating, car insurance, motor tax or essential repairs. I have received representations from constituents from Tarbert to Kenmare, Sneem to Tralee, Killarney to Dingle, Killorglin to Rathmore and Cahersiveen to Castleisland, and from north, south, east, west and mid-Kerry. People in every corner of our county are genuinely worried about these proposals and what they will mean for them. One constituent, for example, described the proposed arrangements as overly complicated and punitive. The constituent spoke about the additional pressure being placed on ordinary people who are already navigating NCT requirements, insurance, licences, planning applications and numerous other regulatory obligations. I do not believe we should dismiss these frustrations. We must ask whether we are creating a system proportionate to the scale and nature of the operation being regulated. A small family-run tourism unit in rural Kerry is not necessarily the same as a large commercial property portfolio operating in central Dublin. Our legislation and planning approach must recognise that distinction. I welcome the proposed national register to be administered by F\u00e1ilte Ireland. Having accurate information about the number, location and nature of short-term rental properties is sensible. Registration, however, must not become an unnecessarily complicated process. There must be clear guidance, accessible assistance and a straightforward route for ordinary householders to comply. I ask the Minister of State to clarify several matters. What exactly will be required of a small operator registering a converted garage, an independent annexe or a unit on a family farm? Will there be clear guidance distinguishing these properties from conventional residential houses being used exclusively for commercial short-term letting? What will the registration fee be? The legislation refers to a nominal fee to be prescribed by F\u00e1ilte Ireland. What will \"nominal\" mean in practice, particularly for somebody operating a small unit? What support will be available to people who do not have planning expertise or access to professional advisers? We cannot expect an elderly person or small rural operator to navigate a complicated planning process without meaningful assistance. I also want to address the national planning statement and the population threshold of 20,000. I acknowledge the Government's decision to adopt a more accommodating approach in towns and settlements with populations below 20,000, including a two-year period for operators to regularise their planning position. That is very welcome, but I question whether a population threshold alone is sufficient to determine the appropriate planning approach. We must look at the circumstances of individual communities, and consider whether there is a genuine shortage of long-term housing, whether a property could realistically serve as a long-term home and whether restricting its use would make any meaningful contribution to addressing the housing shortage. A converted outbuilding in rural Kerry, for example, located several kilometres from the nearest employment centre, is not necessarily a realistic alternative for a family seeking a long-term rental property. We need to be careful that we do not remove valuable tourism accommodation without creating a single additional home for somebody to live in."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Healy-Rae On a point of order, I ask that the clock be stopped for one second. I have nothing but the utmost respect for the Minister of State, Deputy Smyth, but why, when we are debating something so important, do we not have the Minister for housing or a Minister of State from the Department here? I think this debate should be halted and we should have the Minister for housing or a Minister of State from that Department here. I say this with all due respect to the Minister of State. She knows this. It is not her fault."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa) The Deputy is on the record on the issue, and we will deal with it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Healy-Rae It is crazy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa) Yes, but we are not-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Healy-Rae Representatives of associations around the country are watching this debate."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa) We will not get this sorted here."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Collins It looks like we are getting nothing sorted."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Healy-Rae I do not mean to interrupt, and the Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach knows this, but I think the position is entirely wrong."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa) Fadhb ar bith. All right. I call Deputy \u00d3 Muir\u00ed."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Cahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Cahill Deputy Healy-Rae is correct. This is hugely important, and not just to Kerry but throughout the country."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa) I am not taking away from that and it should be noted. In fairness, it has been said by several people. At this point, we are hearing from an Teachta \u00d3 Muir\u00ed."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed I think the concerns are well made. Housing remains the single biggest challenge in this country. While lots of progress has been made, we all know that much more work remains to be done. Although 162,000 new homes have been delivered in the past five years and we are on course to see good completion figures this year, we have to do more. Increasing the delivery of new homes must remain the central focus of our housing policy. Equally, we need to ensure that vacant land and underutilised properties are returned to long-term use, which is why this legislation is necessary. Every property that can be returned to long-term residential use has the potential to help a person or family struggling to find accommodation. The measures in the Bill will help to ensure that. In areas like mine on the northside, with significant housing pressure across the board, the balance must be tilted towards residential and local housing need. Ultimately, boosting housing supply in all its forms is essential if we are to ease pressure on renters and support home ownership. I accept the concerns regarding tourism, and it is important that we recognise the valuable role tourism plays in communities throughout the country. The situation does vary across the country. I welcome the approval yesterday of the national planning statement on short-term letting, as mentioned by my colleague. It will provide a clearer framework for local authorities when determining planning applications for short-term letting. It is good that it will be clear for them. This clarity is vital for those already in the business and for the local authorities. One aspect of this Bill that deserves greater attention is the strengthening of F\u00e1ilte Ireland's short-term rental data. I have raised this issue previously. The quality of our tourism data can sometimes be poor, but it is very important that it is of a high quality. The enhanced data collection provided for in this legislation will improve oversight of that sector and help the Government and policymakers to make better informed decisions about tourism development and where investment goes in the year ahead. Enforcement of these new rules will be absolutely vital. I assume it will be local authorities that will be doing the enforcing because they will have the local know-how and the planning responsibility in terms of planning permissions. However, it is important that they are well resourced to do it and that they start enforcing straight away, so that those who are operating in the sector understand that this is happening and that they need to comply. In Dublin Bay North, as I mentioned, where housing demand far outweighs the demand for tourism, it is only right that housing needs are rebalanced in this way. This legislation will help with that balance and support Ireland's thriving tourism sector while also ensuring more homes are available for the people and the families who need them most."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh T\u00e1 dl\u00fathcheangal idir an gceist idir l\u00e1mha againn anocht - rialach\u00e1n na hearn\u00e1la c\u00edosa gearrth\u00e9armach - agus todhcha\u00ed na Gaeilge mar theanga phobail. T\u00e1 g\u00e9arch\u00e9im tith\u00edochta againn sa Ghaeltacht. N\u00ed f\u00e9idir le muintir na Gaeltachta cur f\u00fathu ina gceantair dh\u00fachais f\u00e9in de bharr an easpa sol\u00e1thair d\u00f3thanach tith\u00edochta inacmhainne le d\u00edol agus le f\u00e1il ar c\u00edos. I staid\u00e9ar a rinneadh i gCol\u00e1iste na Tr\u00edon\u00f3ide le d\u00e9ana\u00ed, fuair siad amach nach bhfuil 40% de stoc tith\u00edochta i nGaeltacht Chiarra\u00ed thiar \u00e1 \u00fas\u00e1id mar \u00e1it c\u00f3naithe fadt\u00e9armach. N\u00ed raibh fi\u00fa \u00e1it amh\u00e1in le f\u00e1il ar c\u00edos sa cheantar agus \u00f3s cionn 1,000 \u00e1it liost\u00e1ilte ar Airbnb sa cheantar c\u00e9anna. T\u00e1 tionchar tubaisteach ag an earn\u00e1il seo ar chumas an phobail a theanga a sheachadadh \u00f3 ghl\u00fain go gl\u00fain. T\u00e1 an sc\u00e9al m\u00f3r\u00e1n mar an gc\u00e9anna sna Gaeltachta\u00ed eile thar timpeall na t\u00edre. Mar sin t\u00e1 s\u00e9 riachtanach go nd\u00e9antar rial\u00e1il ar an earn\u00e1il ligin gearrth\u00e9arma agus go mbeadh cosaint agus st\u00e1das ar leith tugtha don Ghaeilge laistigh de sin. F\u00e1ilt\u00edm roimh an Bhille seo ach t\u00e1 roinnt cosaint\u00ed breise gur mhaith liom a fheice\u00e1il chun todhcha\u00ed na teanga a chinnti\u00fa. Mar gheall ar leochaileacht na Gaeltachta\u00ed agus an luach cult\u00fartha ar leith a bhaineann leo, creidim gur cheart go mbeadh limist\u00e9ir plean\u00e1la teanga Gaeltachta san \u00e1ireamh d'athr\u00fa \u00fas\u00e1ide ar cead plean\u00e1la \u00f3n 1 Nollaig 2026. Is \u00e9 sin le r\u00e1 nach mbeidh an tr\u00e9imhse bhreise dh\u00e1 bhliain i gceist sa cheantar Gaeltachta don athr\u00fa \u00fas\u00e1ide mar a bheidh sna h\u00e1iteanna faoi bhun daonra 20,000. Tabharfaidh an tr\u00e9imhse dh\u00e1 bhliain deis d\u00f3ibh si\u00fad at\u00e1 ag ligean \u00e1iteanna go gearrth\u00e9armach lean\u00faint ar aghaidh mar is gn\u00e1ch. T\u00e9ann s\u00e9 i gcoinne cusp\u00f3ir\u00ed na reachta\u00edochta agus ar an mbonn sin n\u00ed f\u00e9idir glacadh leis."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Barry Heneghan Aonta\u00edm le go leor ruda\u00ed at\u00e1 r\u00e1ite sa d\u00edosp\u00f3ireacht seo. Bh\u00ed m\u00e9 ag \u00e9isteacht san oifig agus m\u00e9 ag scr\u00edobh an rud seo. While I have the Minister of State with responsibility for AI here, I want to raise something regarding the Bill but also regarding the housing market. I have put in parliamentary questions on this before. We need to do something in this Government regarding the advertising of AI-generated houses. It is something I have engaged with her Department on and I welcome the responses I am getting. It is not acceptable for absolute lies to be told regarding derelict and vacant properties, but that is what happens when an AI-generated image is the first thing people see when bidding on a house. That is something we need to tackle now as the market is growing. I will continue to engage and will follow up with the Minister of State's office on two absolutely outrageous cases that have been highlighted to me by Ciar\u00e1n from the \"Crazy House Prices\" Instagram page. As my colleague has mentioned, we have a huge demand for housing in Dublin Bay North. It is not acceptable for short-term lettings to be pushing my generation, the generation before me and the generation to come out of renting and out of actual consistent accommodation. Another thing we are constantly discussing is very topical at the moment with the public sector strikes having gone on and coming again. We need to look at the rent relief tax scheme across the country as it is not acceptable for a garda, a nurse, a teacher or an SNA to get the same relief on their rent living in Dublin when they are paying nearly four times the price of rent while they are getting paid the exact same. That is also something at which we should be looking. As my colleague said, there is a difference between someone earning a little extra income and an entire residential property being permanently removed from the long-term housing market. Homes should come first. I welcome that the Bill introduces a national registration system through F\u00e1ilte Ireland. This will give us better information about properties being used in short-term letting and I welcome that. However, I also make the very important point that the success of this legislation will be measured not by how many properties we register but by how many homes are brought back into the long-term housing market for my constituents and for the constituents of everyone in this House. I reiterate my point on transparency in the property market as we are seeing property advertisers using AI-generated images. There is a big difference between showing someone what a house could look like after renovation and showing them an image that makes it look better than it actually is. I will follow up with the Minister of State's office on that. I ask for the Minister of State's support on the seller's legal pack legislation that I reintroduced to the House. I believe we can make the entire process of buying a lot faster, simpler and more transparent. At the moment there is too much documentation to be assembled. I am currently in the process of buying my own house and I see the amount of work that I have to go through. My older siblings have purchased their house too. We have to jump through hoops while other countries make it a lot simpler and streamline the process. The IPAV and other organisations have shown that we can streamline this process and make people sell, buy and get into houses quicker."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Carol Nolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Carol Nolan I support the principle behind this Bill. Greater transparency, accurate data and proper registration of short-term lettings are legitimate objectives. However, legislation should be judged not only by its intentions but also by its likely effects and impact. I am concerned this Bill may create difficulties for rural tourism economies without clear evidence that it will deliver the housing benefits it claims. The Government appears to recognise that rural Ireland faces different circumstances. The Bill amends the Planning and Development Act 2024 by inserting a new section 83A, which suspends for two years the requirement for planning permission for a material change of use to short-term letting in settlements with populations below 2,000. If the same policy cannot be applied equally across the State, it is reasonable to ask whether the full impact on rural communities has been properly assessed. Section 11 of the Bill inserts new sections 27A to 27D into the Tourist Traffic Act 1939. These provisions establish a mandatory registration regime; place responsibility on F\u00e1ilte Ireland as the competent authority; require hosts to provide specific information; provide for registration and renewal of fees; and create offences for non-compliance. Section 13 then provides that registrations will last for just 12 months before renewal is required. Taken individually, none of these measures appears excessive but the question is what happens when they operate together. For large commercial operators, registration, annual renewals and compliance obligations may simply become another business cost. The Irish Self-Catering Federation told the Oireachtas committee that the legislation in its current form is absolutely unworkable and it risks closing down elements of rural tourism. This concerns me greatly. The federation also warned that many properties which have provided visitor accommodation for years may leave the sector altogether. The Irish Tourism Industry Confederation has similarly warned that many rural areas do not have enough hotel capacity to replace the lost short-term letting accommodation. If bed capacity disappears, the wider tourism economy loses with it. This is particularly relevant in my own county of Offaly and across the midlands. Our tourism offering entirely depends on a dispersed network of farm stays, self-catering properties, guest houses and independent providers serving visitors to Birr, Lough Boora and the Shannon region, our greenways and our heritage attractions. What concerns me most of all is the absence of clear evidence. As far as I can see, the Government has not produced a county-by-county assessment showing how many tourism beds in the midlands may be affected. Indeed, the Irish Self-Catering Federation states that 90% of operators surveyed would not convert their properties to long-term rentals if tourism use ceased. If that is correct, the State could lose valuable accommodation capacity while gaining very little in additional housing. Before this House imposes a regime of annual registration, renewals, compliance obligations and enforcement powers, the Government should show that it understands the likely consequences for rural tourism and, indeed, the impact on counties like Offaly. Good legislation requires strong, robust evidence. I am not convinced that such evidence has been provided, because no assessment has been done."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Michael-Healy-Rae.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Michael Healy-Rae This Bill had the potential to be sensible and practical. I was involved with it in the very early stages. What I can see is that the Bill has been that I would call \"scutterised\". It will create uncertainty for hardworking people who have spent years building businesses and bringing visitors to rural Ireland. We are talking about the woman who runs a self-catering cottage, the family who restored an old farmhouse and the people who clean, maintain and manage these properties. These are the people who make rural Ireland tick. They deserve better than this. I support the creation of a register, but the Government has turned a reasonable idea into a planning headache for established businesses to the extent that I have tabled 15 amendments to the Bill. I should not have to do that, but I am doing it in the interests of the people who are listening to this debate and who will be absolutely shocked by what they are hearing. Let us deal with the issue of the seven years. On 28 April the Taoiseach told this House: Planning law is planning law and the seven-year rule is there. Basically if someone is operating an Airbnb for seven years he or she does not need planning permission. Those are his words, not mine. He qualified this as being his understanding and spoke about enforcement, but people listening heard a clear and absolute assurance. Those long-standing operators who do not already have the necessary permission or exemption are now being told they must regularise their planning position. Why are we doing this? Where is the protection those people understood they were being promised? We were told that there is a simplified process. Call it simplified, streamlined or fast-tracked, it still involves a planning application. It is still a decision about whether someone can continue with their business or not. A seven-year rule does not guarantee approval. The Government\u2019s guidance still refers to traffic hazards, flooding, pollution and occupancy conditions. Will established entrances now be questioned? Will area engineers be assessing sight-lines at properties that have been welcoming visitors for years? How will objections be dealt with and what will happen if permission is refused? People deserve straight answers before their livelihoods are subjected to this process. Let us take Kerry as an example. There may be around 4,000 short-term lets in Kerry at the moment. If a quarter of the owners of those properties need to apply for planning permission, that is 1,000 applications. How are our local authority and its excellent planners going to deal with that in the timeframe allowed, even though it is two years? If someone operating for less than seven years does not get the same presumption in their favour, a simpler form does not remove the uncertainty about the outcome. The registration timetable is another problem. Who in the name of God thought it was the right thing to do to tell us that this has to be done during the month of December, when possibly two weeks are gone? Why put people under that pressure? Give them three months practical assistance and a clear way for an authorised agent to help them. The appeals arrangements are also unbalanced. An operator has 21 days to appeal. That person can be asked for further information within 14 days, yet there is no overall statutory deadline for deciding that appeal. You cannot demand urgency from business owners and then leave them waiting indefinitely for an answer. Annual renewals must also be workable. Let people apply earlier and protect their registration while timely renewals are being processed. This Bill as it stands is an absolute disaster. I will say again it has been \"scutterised\". It is bringing uncertainty to these businesspeople. We will be tabling amendments in order to seek to protect established operators, give people reasonable time, provide for fair appeals and prevent administrative delays from putting businesses in jeopardy. We need homes, but we also need employment and visitors spending money in our towns and villages. Closing a holiday business does not automatically produce an available long-term home. As I have continually stated, the people who provide short-term rentals did not create the housing crisis. Nor are they responsible for fixing that problem. We must consider the amendments and deal with them in a practical way. These families have invested their own money and years of their lives. They deserve a fair chance."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mattie McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Mattie-McGrath.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mattie McGrath We all recognise that there are issues in some cities. However, it appears that the Government is hell-bent on introducing a one-size-fits-all approach. It has made an absolute hames of this. I do not know if the Minister of State understands the word that Deputy Michael Healy-Rae used, but she will know what a hames is. It is something that used to go on a horse. In many rural communities, self-catering accommodation, holiday homes, farm stays, glamping facilities and other short-term rental accommodation are not part of housing and never will be. I do not know what the Government thought it was doing when it brought this Bill forward. Nor do I know where it got it from. One size does not fit all. We know that. We thought we had this sorted 12 months ago. I compliment Deputy Michael Healy-Rae. When he was a junior Minister, he made a lot of headway on this. Now, however, the Government is back to the drawing board. Who is wagging the tail of the Government? The left, with the exception of the Labour Party, has never been in power here, but the left is getting away with things in respect of many issues. I refer to social and other issues, and here again. I listened to those on the left the other night. You would think they were living in a utopia. In rural Ireland, we have very little. I want to salute the men and women - especially the women in many cases, as has been said here \u2013 who operate these Airbnbs, rentals and small houses. There is a great man in my parish, Tom\u00e1s O'Keeffe. He converted a lovely little thatched house that I often ate my dinner in when his mother and father were alive. It was becoming derelict. It was located in the middle of the farm. This was a lovely thatched cottage in which a big family was reared. They are all gone off now and doing well for themselves, bu\u00edochas le Dia. That is inside in the farm. It will never be a full-time let. A woman from Dundrum in Tipperary contacted me. Again, her property is located in the middle of the farm. These properties will never be housing. You could not have them where there are animals and all kinds of farm activities going on. It is a European directive here again. The same thing always happens with European directives. There are so many mandarins in the Department and so many senior officials. I spoke to an engineer in Waterford County Council. It is impossible to deal with officials in Transport Infrastructure Ireland, the Department, An Taisce and, of course, the OPW. These officials need a rude awakening. The need to be brought down to rural Ireland and shown what is going on and how people have to live. It is wonderful to have these little outlets in our rural communities in order that strangers can come in. We do not have hotels. We have barely a pub left. This type of tourism offering brings in a nice mix of people. Those people go to the pub and the shops, they go out walking, they meet locals and immerse themselves in local communities. That is good for our culture and it promotes change and everything else. The Government has added much more to this than was ever asked for by the EU. I do not know what is at. This is d\u00e9j\u00e0 vu, because a previous Government did it with bedsits. I was in the D\u00e1il when all the clamour around getting rid of bedsits occurred. The legislation brought forward then got rid of 1,000 units of accommodation overnight, and people had nowhere to go except out onto the streets. It is the very same with this Bill because the Government will not get anything like the numbers it is dreaming about. It thinks there is a magic wand that will deliver many housing units, but that is complete poppycock. They are not there. I have listened to Government backbenchers talking all night about it. I do not know what will happen when it comes to the vote in an hour or two. Will they put their money where their mouths are? It is terrible that they cannot exercise power over the Minister. This is no disrespect to the Minister of State, but Deputy Healy-Rae was right that it is shocking that the senior Minister could not be here for such an important debate. That is what those in government think of rural Ireland. I refer to Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael, which were supposed to represent the daoine beag, the small people, in rural Ireland. It is a case of to hell or to Connacht once again for the people who put their hands in their pockets and invested in restoring lovely old buildings - some of them are historic or listed buildings - and brought people into communities. They worked hard, night and day, when they were busy at weekends and during holiday time. Throughout the rest of the year, the family can use them and so on, but they would never be housing units. They are not built for that, and they are in the wrong place. It will not happen. The Government has got this fundamentally wrong. It has to go back to the drawing board."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Danny Healy-Rae Here is the Government again at the Airbnbs. It cannot stop. I have always believed that if someone buys, builds or inherits a house, they can do what they want with it and cannot to be forced to do something they do not want to do with it. Here is the Government again trying to bring in laws retrospectively. Fine Gael and Fianna F\u00e1il have joined together to put owners who work hard out of business. These people have worked hard to make a bit of money to send their children to college or to get extra money in order to just keep going. People face tough times in the countryside too, in case the Government thinks they do not. It wants them to go into long-term letting but they will not do that. Not a single house will be gained out of them. At the same time, there are vacant houses around the country and I have been told several times about them. Nothing at all is done to bring those houses back into use and to get people to rent them long-term and do something with them but the Government has given them no incentive. They are taxed at 50% if they let to someone and if they want their house back in a year or a year and a half, they cannot get it back again. Those are the things the Government should be dealing with. We have a lot of public buildings you could house people in. Take St. Finan's in Killarney. It is closed for nearly 20 years. You could house 2,000 people in it but those are the things the Government will not do. This will have serious implications for employers - people who work hard in this industry - and their employees. It provided a valuable income for all of those people. Now, the Government is giving them four weeks to register. If they need a certificate, whether it is a fire, electrical, plumbing or heating certificate or anything like that, where will they get that at short notice and during the weeks of Christmas? The Government has no consideration at all for people or what it actually means to get a registered builder to do something for you. They are not there. They are not available. It just will not happen like that. Some of these houses were built in the middle of farms and were left by grandparents. They were done up nicely and they create a bit of income. They will never be long-term lets. There are people coming back to them at set times of the year, for Christmas holidays or summer holidays. They will not rent them out long-term. I cannot understand the logic of what the Government is doing. They are the grandest of hard working people around and it looks to me like the Government wants to sort a Dublin social housing problem by tackling people in rural Kerry. We do not have enough hotels or any hotels in some rural parts of Kerry. We need these Airbnbs to work alongside guest houses and hotels, to work with the jarveys, boat men, taxi men, bus men and all of the people it takes to create an industry. Now, the Government is making F\u00e1ilte Ireland go after them, which I thought was meant to sell our products abroad. Now, it is going to close places down. This is the actual fact of what the Government is doing. It is getting F\u00e1ilte Ireland to close people down instead of organising our tourists for next year, bringing in more people and ensuring people come here. These people will not make a bob at all if they cannot have tourists for a few weeks in the summertime. They are depending on it but now the Government has F\u00e1ilte Ireland doing something else altogether."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niamh Smyth","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment (Deputy Niamh Smyth) I thank everybody for their contributions, observations and concerns they have raised tonight. I have taken note of them all and will share them with the Ministers, Deputies Burke and Browne, as well. In closing, I thank all Deputies for their thoughtful contributions to this debate and for the careful consideration given to this important legislation. The discussion has reflected both the complexity of the issues involved and the importance of getting this policy right. Members from across the House have highlighted the significant contribution that short-term letting makes to tourism and local economies while also acknowledging the genuine concerns that exist regarding housing availability in many communities. Those are legitimate perspectives and they are precisely why this legislation seeks to achieve a balanced and proportionate outcome. At its core, this Bill is about ensuring that Ireland has a modern, transparent and effective regulatory framework for a sector that has evolved significantly in recent years. The growth of online booking platforms and the rapid expansion of short-term letting activity have transformed the accommodation landscape and yet, the regulatory framework has not kept pace with those changes. The State does not currently have a complete picture of the scale or distribution of short-term letting activity, nor does it have the comprehensive data required to effectively monitor compliance with planning requirements or to support evidence-based policy making. This legislation addresses that gap. For the first time, it will establish a comprehensive national register of short-term lets, providing transparency and accountability across the sector. It will create a reliable source of information for policymakers, regulators and of course, the public. It will strengthen oversight, improve compliance and ensure that Ireland meets its obligations under EU law, particularly in relation to the implementation of the EU short-term rental regulation. A number of concerns have been raised throughout this debate about the potential effects of these measures on tourism. This legislation is not designed to undermine tourism, nor is it intended to restrict legitimate tourism accommodation unnecessarily. Tourism remains one of Ireland's most important indigenous industries. It supports employment, investment and economic activity in every region of the country. It sustains livelihoods in rural communities, coastal areas, towns and cities and enriches the social, cultural and economic life of our communities. The Government fully recognises that contribution and remains committed to supporting a competitive, resilient and sustainable tourism sector. However, we must recognise that housing availability and affordability are among the most pressing challenges facing the country. In certain locations, particularly those experiencing sustained housing pressure, the growth of short-term letting activity has contributed to concerns regarding the availability of homes for local residents. While short-term letting is not the sole cause of those pressures, it would be irresponsible to ignore its impact where that impact is evident. The challenge for Government is, therefore, not to choose between tourism and housing. Both are national priorities. The challenge is to ensure that they can coexist in a way that is sustainable and balanced. This Bill is founded on that principle. The measures contained in the legislation have been carefully designed to support that balance. The Bill does not impose a blanket prohibition on short-term letting. It does not seek to remove legitimate accommodation from the tourism market. Instead, it seeks to ensure that short-term letting operates within a clear and transparent framework, one that provides certainty for operators, transparency for regulators and most importantly, confidence for communities. An important element of that framework is planning compliance. The national planning statement approved by the Government on 3 November provides a clear and consistent national planning policy for short-term letting activity. It establishes certainty for property owners, local authorities and communities. The Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy James Browne, has introduced a streamlined change-of-use planning process specifically for short-term letting properties. The planning and development change of use regulation for short-term letting, which came into operation on 29 September 2026, significantly simplifies the retention application process. Applicants are no longer required to submit many of the detailed plans and documentation normally associated with planning applications and a dedicated application form has been introduced specifically for these cases. These changes are intended to reduce administrative burdens and provide a straightforward pathway to compliance for operators who wish to continue their activity within the new framework. The Bill further acknowledges that adjustment will take time. That is why it provides for a two-year transition period for hosts operating in smaller towns and rural areas with populations of fewer than 20,000 people. This transition period reflects the Government's recognition that circumstances vary across the country and that a measured approach is necessary. It provides sufficient time for operators to understand the requirements, regularise their position where necessary and adapt to the new system. Taken together, these measures demonstrate that the Government's approach is not punitive. It is practical, proportionate and phased. It combines clear rules with reasonable transition arrangements and meaningful supports. Importantly, the Bill goes beyond short-term letting alone. It modernises Ireland's wider tourism accommodation registration framework, strengthens governance arrangements, establishes independent appeals mechanisms and creates a dedicated framework for visitor stays in student-specific accommodation outside term time. These reforms will improve the quality of regulation, strengthen consumer confidence and provide better data and oversight across the accommodation sector as a whole. Ultimately, this legislation is about ensuring that growth takes place in a managed and transparent way. As the accommodation sector continues to evolve, it is essential that policymakers have access to accurate information and that accommodation being used for tourism purposes is visible, accountable and operating within the appropriate regulatory framework. That is not an unreasonable objective; indeed, it is the minimum that citizens should expect from a modern regulatory system. What would be difficult to justify is maintaining the status quo indefinitely. It would be difficult to explain why the State should continue to lack basic information about the scale of activity taking place in this sector. It would be difficult to explain why concerns regarding housing availability should simply be set aside, and to explain why Ireland should delay implementing a regulatory framework that provides transparency, accountability and compliance with European requirements. For these reasons, I firmly believe that the legislation strikes the right balance. It recognises the importance of tourism while acknowledging the need to protect housing supply. It supports legitimate operators while ensuring appropriate oversight. It provides clarity, certainty and transparency, while equipping the State with the tools necessary to better understand and manage the sector in the years ahead. This is a necessary, proportionate and forward-looking reform. It reflects the realities of a changing accommodation market, responds to the challenges facing communities and provides a sustainable framework for future growth. I, therefore, commend the Bill to the House and look forward to continuing constructive engagement with Members as it progresses through the remaining Stages in the Oireachtas. Gabhaim bu\u00edochas le gach duine."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa) De r\u00e9ir Bhuan-Ordaithe 85(2), cuirfear an v\u00f3t\u00e1il siar go dt\u00ed an am v\u00f3t\u00e1la seachtaini\u00fail anocht."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Short-Term Letting and Tourism Bill 2026: Second Stage (Resumed)"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_17","debateType":"billReport","bill":null,"showAs":"Transport Authority (Amendment) Bill 2026: Report and Final Stages","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_17","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Canney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa) N\u00edl leasaithe ar bith in ord faoi choinne an tuarasc\u00e1il so t\u00e1imid ag dul go dt\u00ed an Ch\u00e9im Deiridh."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment No. 1 not moved."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Bill received for final consideration."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question proposed: \"That the Bill do now pass.\""},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa) Is anyone looking to speak? No."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Canney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister of State at the Department of Transport (Deputy Se\u00e1n Canney) I won a bet."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa) Cuirfear an Bille chun an tSeanaid anois."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Transport Authority (Amendment) Bill 2026: Report and Final Stages"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_18","debateType":"billReport","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/76","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/76\/dail\/4","houseCode":"dail","stage":"4","isBillStage":true,"showAs":"Strategic Lawsuits against Public Participation Bill 2026: Report and Final Stages (D\u00e1il)"}},"showAs":"Strategic Lawsuits against Public Participation Bill 2026: Report and Final Stages","counts":{"speechCount":47,"speakerCount":5},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_18","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendments Nos. 1 to 29, inclusive, not moved."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration (Deputy Colm Brophy) I move amendment No. 30: In page 13, lines 11 and 12, to delete \u201cwhere relevant to defamation proceedings coming within the scope of Directive (EU) 2024\/1069,\u201d. Amendment No. 30 proposes the deletion of the reference to defamation proceedings coming within the scope of the anti-strategic lawsuits against public participation, SLAPP, directive and paragraph (e) of the definition of \"a matter of public interest\" in section 15 of the Bill. It is intended to address the points raised in relation to potential inconsistent definitions in the Bill regarding defamation proceedings and other forms of civil and commercial proceedings. A definition of \"a matter of public interest\" is provided in both section 2 of the Bill, and section 15, which inserts section 34A in the Defamation Act 2009. These definitions are based on the definition contained in the directive. In both cases, a matter of public interest is defined generally as any matter that affects the public to such an extent that the public may legitimately take an interest in it and includes a non-exhaustive list of subjects, which may involve matters of public interest, including fundamental rights or certain activities of public figures. The difference between the two definitions is that paragraphs (d) and (e) of the definition of defamation proceedings include a reference to defamation proceedings coming within the scope of the anti-SLAPP directive. This means that, when outlining that an administrative offence in a place other than in the State may constitute a matter of public interest, the definition in the defamation context specifically refers to, where relevant, defamation proceedings coming within the scope of the Act. The same reference to defamation proceedings within the scope of the directive is contained in paragraph (e), which notes that activities aimed at protecting the values enshrined in the treaty of the European Union may constitute matters of public interest where they are relevant to defamation proceedings within the scope of the directive. To address the concerns raised, it is important to clarify in the first instance what type of defamation proceedings will come within the scope of the directive. The anti-SLAPP directive applies to cross-border proceedings, but the concept of \"cross-border\" is broadly defined. Proceedings are considered to be cross-border within the meaning of the directive, unless all elements relevant to the situation concerned are located in the same member state. With regard to paragraph (e), where defamation proceedings are brought on the basis of public participation concerning activities aimed at protecting the values enshrined in Article 2 of the Treaty on European Union, such proceedings are likely to concern elements located outside the State, as the public participation in question will concern matters of relevance at EU level. Where an issue is not a matter of relevance at EU level, it is likely to be captured by the fundamental rights example listed in paragraph (a) of the definition. Therefore, in practice, it is not believed the definition as currently drafted will result in a narrow interpretation. However, the recent decision of the Court of Justice in the European Commission v . Hungary has broken new ground in the application of Article 2 of the TEU and confirmed it contains legally binding obligations which could potentially form the basis of infringement proceedings against member states, making it potentially more likely to arise in a domestic context. For this reason, and for the avoidance of doubt, amendment No. 30 will delete the reference to defamation proceedings coming within the scope of the anti-SLAPP directive from paragraph (e) of the definition. However, it is not necessary to amend the reference in the context of administrative offences as referred to in paragraph (d), as amendment No. 29 proposes. Paragraph (d) provides that the allegations of administrative offence in a place other than the State may be considered to be matters of public interest. If defamation proceedings relate to an allegation of an offence outside the State, all elements relevant to the situation concerned will not be located in the same members state and therefore, the proceedings will be considered to be cross-border proceedings within the scope of the directive. In addition, it is not necessary to define the concept of administrative offences. They are not defined in the directive and introducing a definition of administrative offences at national level risks conflicts with the directive. The court will be able to determine what constitutes an administrative offence without the need for a domestic definition, which could inadvertently exclude certain administrative offences or create divergent interpretations in member states. For that reason, I have moved this amendment."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Matt Carthy I have just a brief couple of points on this amendment. I did not table any amendments on this Stage. I support amendment No. 30, which the Minister of State spoke about. It seems to be an amendment that could have been made to the Defamation Act when we discussed it previously. Mine is a broad point about the Oireachtas committee on justice. Deputy Gannon and I are members of it and we are having huge difficulty at the moment with the amount of work required of us in pre-legislative scrutiny, Committee Stage of legislation, Estimates, which are coming up, and the elective work the committee wants to deal with. We have not been able to get the capacity for additional meetings. Likewise, there is a lot of pressure on the D\u00e1il agenda. Everyone is opposed to strategic lawsuits against public participation. Everyone wants to see anyone engaged in it to be dealt with, but the senior Minister told the House that they are not a significant issue in Ireland. It should be put on the record that the only reason we are dealing with this is to comply with an EU regulation the Government signed us up to previously. That is a long way of saying we have more important things to be doing. There are important issues in the criminal justice system that are live and that need to be acted on. The criminal legal aid system is in complete disarray. The Minister has been completely embarrassed by a High Court judgment. It should not have had to come to that point. It is my view, had the Minister-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Colm Brophy Is there any relevance to the legislation or is this just a diatribe by the Deputy about anything that comes to mind?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Matt Carthy When I was suggesting that we have important things to be doing, I was also suggesting that the Minister of State do his job and not try to do the job of the Chair of the House."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Colm Brophy I was just helping the Chair. I am sure the Chair was just about to remind the Deputy to address the legislation."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa) I thank both of you for your interest in the Chair. We will bring it to an end."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Matt Carthy The Minister of State can hardly help himself. The point I am making is relevant and it is important. The Minister of State might not like to hear it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Colm Brophy The Minister always likes to hear the Deputy - always."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Matt Carthy I am sure his party colleagues have told him that he needs to tell the senior Minister to wise up and sort out the criminal legal aid dispute. He needs to engage constructively and find a solution to it. That is what his colleagues are saying in the justice committee. That needs to be prioritised, and the fact that-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Colm Brophy I refer to my previous point, Chair. This is not relevant to this legislation."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Matt Carthy It is not for the Minister of State to determine that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Colm Brophy I am asking the Chair for a ruling. It would be nice if the Deputy were speaking-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa) In fairness, he is requesting it of me."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Matt Carthy I have only three and a half minutes. Others who put forward amendments were not here. Previous Bills went quicker than the time allocated. I do not know whether they intended to be here."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Colm Brophy Sorry, Chair. I learned my best interrupting tactics from the Deputy opposite. Will you please try to get him to address the legislation?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa) On Report stage, contributions have to relate to the amendment."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Matt Carthy It does relate to amendment No. 30 because I am saying there are more important things than what is in amendment No. 30."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Colm Brophy That is stretching it beyond all credulity."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa) He is bringing it to an end now. I request Deputy Carthy to bring this to an end."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Matt Carthy I do not know what is frustrating the Minister of State so much. He has only been here for about ten minutes to deal with the Bill. People tell me I have an annoying voice, but I did not think it would be that hard for the Minister of State to endure it for four minutes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Colm Brophy I want to put on the record that I never said Deputy Carthy had an annoying voice. I think he has a lovely voice. I think that is important."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa) I agree. I never heard the Minister of State say that either."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Matt Carthy Thank you. I repeat the points I made. In respect of justice, home affairs and migration, there are important things. That is not to say this is not an important issue, but there are more important ones and I encourage the Minister to deal with and address them, because at the moment we have a criminal justice system that is in absolute chaos from top to bottom. In many respects, it is getting worse. Today, we heard about private companies policing Dublin city."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Colm Brophy We are off again on another little rant. Chair, the Deputy must on this Stage, Report Stage, speak to the amendment."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Matt Carthy We have a court system that is in convulsions-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa) No, Deputy Carthy-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Matt Carthy -----a prison system that is overcrowded-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa) Report Stage is-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Matt Carthy It appears the Chief Whip just came in to interrupt me."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Deputy Mary Butler) I am just copying the Deputy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Matt Carthy This is an important point. I was in the Minister of State's constituency on Friday where I met senior garda\u00ed who are doing a tough job right now. They need all eyes on that issue providing them with the support they need and the resources necessary to do their job. I will leave it there. I thank the Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach for his indulgence."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa) Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an Teachta Carthy. I find it hard to believe anyone would say he has an annoying voice."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Colm Brophy I moved my amendment. It is the next element up."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment agreed to"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"There is only one more amendment."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn Am I late?"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Yes. We have dealt with everything up to amendment No. 30."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Colm Brophy We are on amendment No. 33 now."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"We are on amendment No. 33."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendments Nos. 31 to 33, inclusive, not moved."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Butler Deputy Kelly is not here to move the amendment, so it cannot be moved. He has to be here to move it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa) Deputies will have an opportunity on Fifth Stage anyway."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Bill, as amended, received for final consideration."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question proposed: \"That the Bill do now pass.\""},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn An bhfuil an Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach ag cur na ceiste os comhair an D\u00e1la ar an staid seo? Is he putting the question to the D\u00e1il?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Colm Brophy He is putting the question at this point that he-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mary Butler He has to put the question to conclude the passage of the Bill."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn The Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach is giving me a chance to speak."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa) I was, and the Deputy interrupted himself."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Colm Brophy How does he have a chance to speak?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Matt Carthy He is speaking to the question."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Colm Brophy We are proposing that the Bill do now pass."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa) We are still dealing with Fifth Stage. There is an opportunity to contribute now. Most Members never take it up, but an Teachta T\u00f3ib\u00edn is going to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn I thank the Chair for giving me the opportunity to speak at this moment. I apologise in relation to my tardiness on this subject. There is one issue I want to raise. I will raise a couple of points in generality at this moment. A number of people across the country have suffered significantly from SLAPP actions by companies, organisations, etc. They are individuals who may be involved in protecting the environment oe who stand up to big corporations, etc. A large number of those people become targets of litigation, which has the objective not to ever reach a conclusion or judgment, but has the objective to reach a situation where it ties the individual up so much that they cannot function. Issues such as looking for disclosure of large elements of information, running a number of cases at a similar stage. My concern in all of this is that sometimes the legal system can participate in this practice. It is not the example of the majority of solicitors. Individuals, however, will participate in a process that does not have the objective of reaching a conclusion or a judgment but has the objective of destroying individuals for commercial reasons. There needs to be a system whereby those individuals are protected. Those who are doing the damage need to be punished. The manner in which we sought for that to happen was that they would be referred to the associations that they are part of and therefore receive a certain level of punishment, or the State would introduce fines or difficulties in relation to them as well. If there is no cost to a solicitor who gets involved in a negative SLAPP action, knowingly bringing information that is not true, we are never going to get to a situation that this practice reduces in future. It is a mistake that we do not have that element strongly enough within the legislation to make sure solicitors do not get involved in this. Without this, there will be a situation whereby many individuals are going to be broken financially. They could be broken in terms of the time that it takes to manage all of the charges or cases brought against them. That was a reason we looked to bring forward amendments to strengthen this. Some of the amendments that we suggested were taken from other jurisdictions that had similar controls and similar punishments for individuals who are committing wrongdoing in this case."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and declared carried."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Strategic Lawsuits against Public Participation Bill 2026: Report and Final Stages"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_19","debateType":"motion","bill":null,"showAs":"Hospital Overcrowding: Motion (Resumed) [Private Members]","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_19","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The following motion was moved by Deputy David Cullinane on Tuesday, 3 November 2026:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"That D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"notes that:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the Irish Nurses and Midwives Organisation recorded 12,274 patients without a hospital bed in September 2026, the worst September on record, including 1,994 at University Hospital Limerick (UHL) and 1,008 at Cork University Hospital (CUH);"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the number of recorded emergency department experiences lasting more than 24 hours increased from 33,843 to 36,410, up 7.6 per cent, and for patients aged 75 and over, the number exceeding 24 hours increased from 10,019 to 12,106, a sharp increase of 20 per cent;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 recruitment restrictions, unfilled essential posts and delays in offering graduates permanent jobs are undermining patient safety and winter preparedness; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 there is a significant bed deficit across our hospitals as acknowledged in the Government's Acute Hospital Inpatient Bed Capacity Expansion Plan 2024-2031, especially in the Mid-West which faces continuing capacity risks at UHL;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"considers that overcrowding robs patients of dignity, endangers lives, exhausts staff and safe discharge requires appropriate support along with patient and family involvement;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"condemns successive Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael Governments' failure to deliver sufficient capacity and reform, and recognises the Minister for Health's responsibility to sustainably fund the health service, address capacity shortages, and ensure safe care across every hospital; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"calls on the Government to:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 remove recruitment restrictions blocking the filling of urgent and priority vacant posts, replacement, leave cover, and redelegate recruitment authority to health regions with adequate funding linked to patient needs;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 honour permanent contract commitments to nursing and midwifery graduates, and improve staff training, recruitment, and retention through a funded workforce plan;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 legislate for safe staffing, fully implement the Framework for Safe Nurse Staffing and Skill Mix, and fund multidisciplinary staffing and surge capacity, ensuring financial controls cannot override patient safety;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 take urgent action on the capacity and patient safety concerns raised at CUH and UHL, with clear responsibility for resolving priority vacancies, addressing service restrictions and providing additional staffed capacity;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 deliver the promised 3,000 additional acute inpatient beds, funded through a multiannual capital plan with hospital-by-hospital capacity targets to meet population needs;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 accelerate elective hospitals in Cork, Galway and Dublin and the opening of surgical hubs to protect scheduled care from cancellations;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 deliver a funded Model 3 hospital with a second emergency department for the Mid-West, alongside immediate improvements and expanded urgent care at UHL, Ennis, Nenagh and St John's hospitals;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 expand regular and out-of-hours general practitioner, pharmacy, primary care, home care and community services to reduce pressure on overcrowded hospitals, deliver care closer to home, and improve early intervention;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 fully fund the National Ambulance Service strategic workforce plan; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 publish funded regional winter plans and multiannual improvement plans with clear responsibility, published deadlines, demand forecasts, staffing and capacity targets, targets to end trolley waits, and escalation arrangements with a target of achieving consistent population-based capacity levels across each region."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"To delete all words after \"D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann\" and substitute the following:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\"acknowledges:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the increased pressure on urgent and emergency care (UEC), given that there has been increased demand in emergency departments (EDs) with patient attendances up 7 per cent (+98,500) nationally, and attendances by people aged 75 plus up 9 per cent (+18,000) compared with 2025;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the commitment in the Programme for Government to further reducing EDs overcrowding and enhancing urgent care services nationwide;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the ongoing and important work undertaken by our nurses, doctors and wider healthcare workforce in our hospitals and across the health service, often in challenging and difficult conditions;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the progress being made providing more care in the community, consistent with the objectives of Sl\u00e1intecare, and the significant reforms being implemented in primary care, general practitioner (GP) and pharmacy services; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 that there has been substantial and sustained investment in health service staffing and funding in recent years, with Budget 2027 allocating \u20ac29.1 billion for health services as the Government continues its investment in more care, closer to home;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"notes that:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"in relation to the urgent and emergency care plans that:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 during the first ten months of the year, ED attendances rose by 7 per cent, with 98,300 additional presentations nationally when compared to the same period in 2025, with effective governance and oversight essential in ensuring operational grip is maintained at national, regional and hospital levels;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 for 2026, the top six sites accounted for 51 per cent of the daily average 8 a.m. trolleys, University Hospital Limerick (UHL), Cork University Hospital (CUH), St Vincent's University Hospital, University Hospital Galway, Mayo University Hospital, and Sligo University Hospital;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the next seven sites accounted for 29 per cent of the daily average 8 a.m. trolleys, Mercy Hospital, Tallaght University Hospital (TUH), University Hospital Kerry, Letterkenny University Hospital (LUH), Mater Misercordiae University Hospital, St James's Hospital and Naas General Hospital, this means that 13 out of 29 sites accounted for 80 per cent of 8 a.m. trolleys; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 to respond to the winter season demand, the Government is progressing with implementation of additional patient safety and patient flow steps, including a GP respiratory support programme, additional specific ED plans for each of the ED sites and identifying key unblockers of patient safety flow for the winter period;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"in relation to safe staffing and safe care that:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the Government supports and has invested significantly in the Framework for Safe Nurse Staffing and Skill Mix (the Framework), noting that the Framework is an evidence-based approach to determine the appropriate nurse staffing levels and skill mix in acute hospital settings and EDs across Ireland;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the Framework continues to demonstrate positive impacts for patients, staff and organisations where implemented, for example, reduced length of stay, reduction in staff intention to leave, and efficiencies through reduced agency usage;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 Ireland's approach aligns with the World Health Organization guidance, utilising a blended model of Benchmarking and Patient\/Acuity-based staffing, the Framework is grounded in a needs-based care principle, measuring nursing workload by systematically assessing individual patient care requirements and levels of dependency, this enables staffing to be dynamically adjusted in response to patient complexity and care intensity, rather than relying on fixed ratios; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 significant progress has been made, with baseline implementation achieved in all 26 adult EDs, and across 39 acute hospitals nationwide, this means that 96 per cent of identified baseline staffing requirements have now been delivered nationally and is a critical measure of patient safety;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"in relation to the Winter Vaccine Plan that:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 vaccination is recognised as one of the most impactful public health interventions available and has led to many lives being saved dramatically reducing the impact of infectious diseases also protecting finite hospital resources, noting that the flu and Covid-19 vaccination programmes are already currently underway for the winter season;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the flu vaccine is available free of charge to eligible groups from local GPs and pharmacies throughout the flu season, eligible groups include, adults aged 60 years and over, individuals in specified health related at-risk groups, children aged 2 to 17 years, and healthcare workers;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 Covid-19 vaccinations are available to certain eligible groups without charge through local GPs and participating pharmacies;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the respiratory syncytial virus (RSV) infant immunisation programme is also being delivered this winter, helping to protect babies from serious RSV illness and reducing the risk of hospitalisation during the respiratory virus season, uptake to date has been encouraging, with high levels of immunisation reported through maternity hospitals;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 in the week ending 25th October, shows the following - Influenza activity continues to increase but remains at baseline-low levels overall, noting there were 139 cases notified in week 43, with incidence highest in those aged 80 years and older, in terms of uptake, it can be noted that, of adults aged 60 years and older, there are 34.6 per cent vaccinated compared with 36.9 per cent last season;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 RSV activity has remained stable at baseline levels in recent weeks, with 16 cases notified in week 43, (down from 17 cases in week 42), with incidence highest in infants aged under one year, in terms of uptake, it can be noted that, there is 88.3 per cent cumulative uptake in our maternity hospitals;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 for Covid-19, activity was stable and remained at low-moderate levels, with 203 cases notified in week 43 (up from 191 cases in week 42), incidence was highest in those aged 80 years and older, in terms of uptake, it can be noted that, of adults aged 80 years and younger, there are 37.4 per cent vaccinated, compared with 38.3 per cent at the equivalent campaign stage last season; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 it is widely recognised that flu and Covid-19 vaccinations can significantly reduce hospitalisations by preventing illness and serious complications, in mid-January this year, it was reported in Ireland that around 76 per cent or three quarters of intensive care unit admissions due to the flu were in people who had not received the influenza vaccine;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"in relation to investment and recruitment that:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 there has been substantial and sustained investment in health service staffing and funding in recent years, between 2019 and the end of 2025, overall health funding increased by approximately \u20ac10.6 billion, or 68 per cent, while the health service workforce increased by more than 30,000 staff, or approximately 30 per cent;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 within acute hospitals specifically, real expenditure increased by approximately 52 per cent and staffing by 33 per cent over the same period, compared with an increase of approximately 14 per cent in hospital activity;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 investment continued in 2026, with Budget 2026 providing for an additional 3,300 Whole-Time Equivalent (WTE) staff, by the end of September 2026, the actual workforce had increased by over 4,000 WTE since the beginning of the year, and by over 6,000 WTE in the past 12 months;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 there has been continuous significant increases in funding of the Neonatal Abstinence Syndrome since 2022 to this year's budget of \u20ac292.9 million, which is providing for an additional 263 service posts;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 significant Government investment is being provided to expand healthcare education to address future supply of healthcare workers to ensure Ireland can meet growing healthcare needs, including an investment of \u20ac28.5 million to support the delivery of more than 1,100 additional healthcare training places by 2028, representing a significant increase in training capacity across medicine, nursing, pharmacy, social care, and Health and Social Care Professions;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 there is no blanket recruitment freeze in place, the purpose of the workforce and financial controls in place are to ensure that available staffing is directed towards patient needs and priority services, while preventing recruitment and other expenditure from creating unfunded and unsustainable commitments, this arises from recruitment activity that is greater than sanctioned by the Government and the Houses of the Oireachtas;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 each Health Region must manage recruitment within their available pay allocation, taking account of the cost and mix of staff, agency expenditure, overtime and allowances; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the most recent Health Service Executive (HSE) data shows that nationally, 1,145 of 1,375 graduate nurses and midwives have been offered positions to date, an offer rate of 83 per cent, and more than 1,000 have accepted, it is likely that this offer rate has improved as we know through the Nursing and Midwifery Board of Ireland registration data, that 1,184 graduates have now successfully completed the registration process and the Department of Health is looking for further ways to enhance graduate recruitment;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"in relation to multiannual capital funding that:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the enhanced National Development Plan provision for the health sector for 2026 -2030 is \u20ac9.25 billion, this multiannual capital allocation is the largest ever capital investment plan in the history of the State and largest investment ever in health infrastructure in the State, this multi-annual investment is translated through the HSE annual Capital and Digital plans; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the establishment of the Mid-West Health Planning Board is central to the medium to longer term strategy for the Mid-West Region, the Board is made up of senior regional HSE leaders and multidisciplinary expertise across service delivery, clinical care, infrastructure, finance, and enterprise, it also includes patient and service-user representation to ensure that community needs and lived experience inform the Board's work, it is tasked with developing a robust service configuration and capital development plan for the Region and to put in place a credible roadmap for safe, accessible and sustainable healthcare in the Mid-West, it will focus on how services can be organised across hospital, community, primary care, and pre-hospital services and at how care can be provided closer to home, where appropriate, how pressure on UHL can be reduced, and how existing and future locations can best work together for the whole region;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"in relation to moving care closer to the community, that:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 our health service continues to make steady progress towards providing more care in the community, consistent with the objectives of Sl\u00e1intecare, for example, reforms in primary care through the Enhanced Community Care Programme, the structured chronic disease management programme in general practice and the continued evolution of community pharmacy services have strengthened the healthcare system's ability to meet population needs closer to home;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 notwithstanding demand pressures that remain significant, these investments are creating stronger alternatives to hospital-based care and providing a foundation for more integrated, person-centred services as close to home as possible, \u2013 creating a 'home first' approach as opposed to a 'hospital first' approach to the provision of health services, when it is clinically appropriate to do so;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the Government continues to expand community-based and digitally enabled models of care, offering increased choice and improved outcomes to patients, these approaches focus on preventing avoidable hospital attendance and admission, supporting earlier discharge and are key avenues for relieving pressure on our health services;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 technological advancements such as remote monitoring and telehealth are transforming how healthcare can be delivered, creating new opportunities for remote monitoring and virtual consultations; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 virtual wards are now operating in every HSE Health Region and have provided care to over 5,300 patients, freeing up over 48,900 virtual bed days, these services are helping to relieve pressure on EDs and acute hospitals while ensuring that hospital capacity is available for those who need it most;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"in relation to Surgical Hubs and Elective Hospitals, that:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 significant progress has been made in increasing elective care capacity through the development of new Surgical Hubs and Elective Treatment Centres (ETCs), known also as Elective Hospitals, under the National Elective Care programme;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 four Surgical Hubs are currently operational at TUH, Mount Carmel Community Hospital, Swords and Cork, with hubs in Limerick, Galway and Waterford due to open in the coming months, additional new surgical hubs for Sligo and LUH are in design phase;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 once all surgical hubs are fully operational, the Surgical Hubs will deliver additional capacity across 12 specialties: Gastroenterology, General Surgery, Gynaecology, Ophthalmology, Orthopaedics, Ear Nose and Thorat (ENT), Pain Relief, Plastic Surgery, Urology, Vascular Surgery, Dermatology, and Maxillofacial Surgery, examples of elective procedures include Biopsies, Steroid injections, Carpal tunnel treatments, Hernia repairs, Tonsillectomies and Cataract Surgery, some of the benefits already delivered or underway include:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the Reeves Day Surgery Centre opened in late 2020, and has become the blueprint for Ireland's Surgical Hub Programme, up to end August 2026, the Centre has treated more than 20,000 patients since opening and was delivering almost 5,800 procedures annually by 2025, the facility has supported a 17 per cent reduction in TUH's total day-case waiting list, with three in four patients waiting less than the 12-week Sl\u00e1intecare target; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the South Dublin Surgical Hub at Mount Carmel Community Hospital is demonstrating that dedicated elective capacity can deliver measurable reductions in waiting times and waiting lists, while simultaneously releasing capacity within acute hospitals;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 since opening in February 2025 to end of August 2026, the Hub has delivered 8,006 procedures, including 4,275 procedures in 2026 alone, reduced average waiting times in participating specialties from 8.5 months to 4 months, a reduction of more than 50 per cent, reduced the number of long waiters by 63 per cent, from 330 patients to 121 patients and supported patients from across the wider Dublin Midlands network, including hospitals with significant concentrations of long waiters;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the Dublin and North East Surgical Hub commenced operations during the week of 29th June, 2026, and is currently in the early stages of implementation, it commenced activity in specialties with some of the largest waiting lists in the region, including Plastic Surgery, General Surgery, Urology and Pain Management, most importantly the Hub is being targeted at a region with one of the largest concentrations of long-waiting patients nationally, particularly in Beaumont and the Mater hospitals, where more than 3,100 day-case patients are waiting over 12 months for treatment;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the Cork Surgical Hub opened on a phased basis from 29th September, with Gynaecology amongst the first procedures delivered, expanding to include General Surgery, Dermatology, Ophthalmology and Neurology, Hernia repair, Carpal tunnel Surgery and pain relief injections;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 plans are progressing for Elective Hospitals in Cork, Galway and Dublin, a Planning Application for the ETC at St Stephen's in Cork was lodged on 12th October, while an application for planning permission for Galway at Merlin Park is expected to be lodged in early 2027, work on the Preliminary Business Cases for Dublin is advancing; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 separating elective from emergency and acute care means fewer cancellations and delays for elective care and frees up hospital theatres and day beds in Model 3 and Model 4 hospitals for more complex cases and better addresses unscheduled care needs.\"."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"- (Minister for Health)"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle I must now deal with a postponed division relating to the motion regarding hospital overcrowding. On Tuesday, 3 November 2026, on the question, \"That the amendment to the motion be agreed to\", a division was claimed and in accordance with Standing Order 85(2), that division must be taken now."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Hospital Overcrowding: Motion (Resumed) [Private Members]"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_28","debateType":"motion","bill":null,"showAs":"Protected Disclosures Inquiry: Motion (Resumed) [Private Members]","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_28","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The following motion was moved by Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn on Wednesday, 4 November 2026:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"That D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"notes that:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 concerns were raised regarding the safety, suitability and serviceability of certain Garda firearm holsters through protected disclosures, internal reports and training personnel prior to the fatal shooting of a member of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na in June 2020;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 firearms instructors and other personnel are reported to have raised concerns about holster performance and equipment safety during training exercises;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 evidence arising from training exercises and a firearms-related incident involving a Garda member shortly before the fatal shooting is said to have raised additional questions regarding holster safety and associated forensic findings;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 questions remain as to whether the equipment worn by the Garda member at the time of his death was subjected to a comprehensive and independent technical examination;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 a quality-assurance review completed in 2024 identified concerns regarding the investigation of protected disclosures relating to firearms equipment, including issues relating to technical expertise, forensic evidence, procurement processes and investigative methodology;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 in 2025, concerns were raised by those involved in the protected disclosures process that significant questions remained unresolved and that further enquiries were required before certain disclosures could be closed;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 responsibility for the disclosures were subsequently reassigned, and closed shortly thereafter, notwithstanding the existence of unresolved issues identified by those previously examining them;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 further concerns have been raised regarding the engagement and withdrawal of independent technical expertise, the reliance on internal assessments, and the adequacy and independence of technical reports prepared during the course of the investigations;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 allegations have been made that individuals who raised concerns through protected disclosures, or who challenged aspects of the investigative process, experienced adverse professional consequences;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 questions have also been raised regarding the treatment of personnel involved in the administration and oversight of protected disclosures, and whether sufficient safeguards existed to protect them from adverse treatment; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 concerns have been expressed regarding the handling of disclosures involving allegations against senior office holders and whether existing arrangements provide sufficient independence, transparency and accountability;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"recognises that:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 Detective Garda Horkan was much loved by his family and friends, was a pillar of his community and was a dedicated member of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, and his murder was a desperate loss to all who knew him;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the Horkan family have called for an independent public inquiry; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 ongoing criminal or inquest proceedings must be protected, but they should not become an indefinite reason for withholding independent scrutiny of distinct administrative and public-safety failures;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"has concerns that extend to:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 defective ammunition, and the reported disposal of approximately 500,000 rounds;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 firearms storage, recording and accountability;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 procurement irregularities and alleged supplier favouritism;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 inappropriate servicing or repair of privately owned firearms;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 alleged misuse of Garda resources, fraud and financial wrongdoing;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 ammunition procurement and testing;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 staffing, training and specialist promotions within the Garda National Technical Bureau; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 potential consequences for public safety and the integrity of criminal investigations; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"calls on the Government to constitute a full independent public inquiry that:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 is genuinely independent of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na and the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 has effective powers to secure documents, electronic records and testimony;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 can examine the knowledge, actions and omissions of senior Garda management, including the former Garda Commissioner Drew Harris, where relevant;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 can independently test the disputed forensic examinations and the technical evidence concerning holster safety;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 can examine the original procurement competition, the weighting of cost against quality, mandatory safety specifications, technical testing and the role of independent expertise;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 can examine interference allegations, expert selection and the premature closure of protected disclosures;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 can investigate allegations of penalisation and failures to protect reporting persons;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 can review the accuracy of information supplied to Ministers, the Houses of the Oireachtas and the Horkan family;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 can refer evidence of suspected criminal wrongdoing to the competent authorities;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 can examine whether other protected disclosures involving public safety were inadequately investigated or closed without proper resolution;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 can examine why the files were closed, and how two serious disclosures were closed on 23rd June, 2025, after the Protected Disclosures Manager had expressly stated that material questions remained unanswered;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 can examine why cost was given greater weight than quality, who authorised 500 marks for cost and 400 for quality in the procurement of firearm holsters, what mandatory technical safety standards applied, and who independently verified compliance before the contract was awarded and the equipment issued;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 can examine who was accountable, who authorised the reassignment, and the closure decisions and the representations subsequently made to the Ministers and the public;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 can examine why were whistleblowers penalised;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 can examine what statutory authority permitted the former Minister for Justice, Helen McEntee, to intervene in the handling of a report that the Office of the Protected Disclosures Commissioner had already transmitted to a designated statutory recipient under Section 10D of the Protected Disclosures Act 2014;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 can examine why the former Minister for Justice, Helen McEntee, sent a Protected Disclosure to the then Garda Commissioner, Drew Harris, given that it was expressly identified as a separate Protected Disclosure in its own right;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 can examine why on 21st December, 2023, a protected disclosure was redirected to An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na following a direction by the former Minister for Justice, Helen McEntee, and why identifying information appeared in the titles of attachments transmitted by the Department of Justice to senior Garda management, including to an individual implicated in the very allegations;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 can examine why extremely serious allegations concerning the former Garda Commissioner, Drew Harris, did not meet the threshold for an investigation under Section 102B of the Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na Act 2005, what evidence was considered; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 who undertook that assessment and why was further information not sought through the designated statutory process before that conclusion was reached."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"To delete all words after \"D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann\" and substitute the following:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\"notes that:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 there are robust structures, policies and procedures in place across the criminal justice sector, including in An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, to ensure the effective management of protected disclosures and to provide support to people who make disclosures under the Protected Disclosures (Amendment) Act 2022; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the Government will not publicly discuss the merits or detail of any protected disclosure, since it is not for any Minister to reach conclusions on the veracity or legitimacy of any disclosure, as that is a function for the prescribed investigating bodies;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"recognises that:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 Detective Garda Colm Horkan was much loved by his family and friends and was a highly respected and dedicated member of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, and his murder was an appalling crime and is a tremendous loss to his family, friends and the Garda family;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the murder of Detective Garda Horkan epitomises the risk and sacrifice that has been made by many members of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 concerns have been raised about the safety and suitability of the firearm holster used by Detective Garda Horkan at the time of the incident in which he was fatally shot;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"further notes that:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 having regard to the importance of ensuring that equipment issued to members of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na is safe, the Minister for Justice, Home Affairs and Migration has requested, under section 205(2) of the Policing, Security and Community Safety Act 2024, that Fiosr\u00fa, the Office of the Police Ombudsman, investigate questions concerning the safety and suitability of the holster Detective Garda Horkan was using at the time of his murder; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the purpose of such a referral is to establish, through an independent external investigation, whether the holster gave rise to any operational or safety concerns;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"further recognises that:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 a number of measures have been taken to strengthen protected disclosure mechanisms within An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 a new and strengthened Protected Disclosures Unit was established in January 2025, within the Garda Office of the Assistant Commissioner for Governance and Accountability, which also has responsibility for the Garda Anti-Corruption Unit and the Professional Standards Unit, the office was assigned additional and dedicated staff who have the requisite training and qualifications to undertake their role;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 extensive training has also been provided to managers across An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na and, in addition, all personnel who make protected disclosures are advised of support services;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the Policing, Security and Community Safety Act 2024, established the Garda Board, the Policing and Community Safety Authority (replacing the Policing Authority and Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na Inspectorate) and Fiosr\u00fa;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the Act was designed to enhance governance, oversight and accountability in relation to the delivery of policing and security services by An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na have emphasised that they encourage and support employees in disclosing wrongdoing and that all allegations made under the Protected Disclosures Acts to An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na are treated seriously, and examined for any potential disciplinary or criminal matters that may arise; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 a review of the operation of the Protected Disclosures (Amendment) Act is due to take place in the coming year;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"furthermore, notes that:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the Protected Disclosures (Amendment) Act requires Ministers to transmit reports of wrongdoing to the Protected Disclosures Commissioner;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the relevant legislation was adhered to in transmitting such reports; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 it is not appropriate to comment or draw assumptions from partial information that relates to a process that, by its design, includes legislative provisions that protect the confidentiality of the discloser, and the details relating to the disclosure; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"furthermore, recognises that:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 there are robust structures, policies and procedures in place that ensure the effective management of protected disclosures in An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, and to provide support to those who make disclosures under the Act;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 there are multiple independent avenues for Garda personnel to make disclosures to ensure that disclosures are treated with the appropriate level of independent consideration, and the Government is satisfied that there are robust procedures and protections for those who make disclosures; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 several ongoing legal processes and investigations should be allowed to progress and conclude and so consequently, a public inquiry is not under consideration at this time.\"."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"- (Minister for Justice, Home Affairs and Migration)"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle I must now deal with a postponed division relating to the motion regarding protected disclosures inquiry. On Wednesday, 4 November 2026, on the question, \"That the amendment to the motion be agreed to\", a division was claimed and in accordance with Standing Order 85(2), that division must be taken now."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Protected Disclosures Inquiry: Motion (Resumed) [Private Members]"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_37","debateType":"debate","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/101","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/101\/dail\/2","houseCode":"dail","stage":"2","isBillStage":true,"showAs":"Short-Term Letting and Tourism Bill 2026: Second Stage (Resumed) (D\u00e1il)"}},"showAs":"Short-Term Letting and Tourism Bill 2026: Second Stage (Resumed)","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_37","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Ceann Comhairle I must now deal with a postponed division relating to Second Stage of the Short-Term Letting and Tourism Bill 2026. On Wednesday, 4 November 2026, on the question, \"That the Bill be now read a Second Time\", a division was claimed and in accordance with Standing Order 85(2), that division must be taken now."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an D\u00e1il ar athl\u00f3 ar 8.25 p.m. go dt\u00ed 8.47 a.m., D\u00e9ardaoin, an 5 Samhain 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The D\u00e1il adjourned at 8.25 p.m. until 8.47 a.m. on Thursday, 5 November 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Short-Term Letting and Tourism Bill 2026: Second Stage (Resumed)"}]}}]},"contextDate":"2026-11-04"},{"debateRecord":{"house":{"showAs":"Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation, and Taoiseach","committeeCode":"select_committee_on_finance_public_expenditure_public_service_reform_and_digitalisation_and_taoiseach","houseCode":"dail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/committee\/dail\/34\/select_committee_on_finance_public_expenditure_public_service_reform_and_digitalisation_and_taoiseach","chamberType":"committee","houseNo":"34"},"chamber":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/def\/committee","showAs":"Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation, and Taoiseach"},"lastUpdated":"2026-11-07T03:11:28+00:00","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/select_committee_on_finance_public_expenditure_public_service_reform_and_digitalisation_and_taoiseach\/2026-11-04\/debate\/main","formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/select_committee_on_finance_public_expenditure_public_service_reform_and_digitalisation_and_taoiseach\/2026-11-04\/debate\/mul@\/main.xml"},"pdf":null},"date":"2026-11-04","counts":{"contributorCount":12,"divisionCount":5,"debateSectionCount":1,"questionCount":0,"billCount":0},"debateType":"debate","debateSections":[{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/select_committee_on_finance_public_expenditure_public_service_reform_and_digitalisation_and_taoiseach\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_2","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Finance (No. 2) Bill 2026: Committee Stage","counts":{"speechCount":620,"speakerCount":9},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Erin McGreehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Is anybody indicating?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty For the record, let me repeat what I said in private session. The way in which the T\u00e1naiste is dealing with this Bill is unsatisfactory. I have sat on this committee for many years. In my view, it is unprecedented for a senior Minister to delegate the consideration of the majority of the Finance Bill to a Minister of State who does not have devolved responsibilities in relation to it. In previous times, the finance committee always accommodated a Minister when he had to absent himself, usually for a short period, and usually the committee tried to work around that. The last time this arose was when a Minister needed a short amount of time away from the committee to deal with a personal matter. What the T\u00e1naiste has suggested for the first two days of consideration of this Finance Bill is that the Minister of State, Deputy Troy, will take the majority of the debate. The Minister of State has no devolved responsibilities for many of the provisions contained in the Bill. He will not be involved in the discussions or decisions at a later stage, regardless of whether amendments are proposed. This is simply unprecedented. All the T\u00e1naiste's predecessor, whether they were from his own party, such as Michael Noonan and Paschal Donohoe, or from another party, such as Michael McGrath and going back to Brian Lenihan, tried to take the majority of the debate on Finance Bills. This is serious legislation. Indeed, it has a separate Bill within it, one could argue, that deals with investment accounts. For the T\u00e1naiste not to make himself available for the debate on this Bill is simply not acceptable. I have made the point to the committee that I would rather it accommodated the T\u00e1naiste's schedule. We understand that he has other pressures. We understand that he is the leader of his party, that he has an Ard-Fheis coming up, that he is the T\u00e1naiste and that he has other responsibilities. I get that. I also understand that we have the EU Presidency, but this is the Finance Bill and we need to be talking to the Minister responsible for the issues that arise. In the past, it has been acceptable for a Minister not to be available all the time, but for the Minister to be unavailable for the majority of the first two days is simply not acceptable. The T\u00e1naiste needs to rethink how he is approaching this Bill. This committee should accommodate his schedule. If that means that we must sit for longer, so be it. We have three days of debate scheduled. We usually finished the Bill in two days in the past, but this Bill should be debated with the Minister responsible for the matters to which it relates."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ged Nash I do not want to labour the point but I have similar concerns. This is no reflection on the Minister of State, Deputy Troy. This is the single set-piece Bill for the Minister for Finance every year. There may very well be reasons why the T\u00e1naiste cannot take the majority of the debate over the next couple of days. The reality is that most of the tax provisions, for example, may have arisen from ideas that he had. It may be very difficult to establish the rationale for some decisions with the Minister of State, Deputy Troy, because this is ultimately the product of the Minister for Finance. As Deputy Doherty said, the T\u00e1naiste's signature initiative this year is the investment savings accounts. We would like to hear from him on that to the greatest extent possible. Again, not to labour the point, I have the same concerns as Deputy Doherty. In all my years here since 2011, it has been the case that the Minister for Finance has taken the vast majority of the Finance Bill. That is not the case this time. I know the T\u00e1naiste will address that in his remarks. I look forward to his explanation of the rationale behind the arrangement."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cian O'Callaghan I have the same concerns. I completely understand that the T\u00e1naiste and Minister for Finance has many demands on his time. It would be right for this committee to accommodate his schedule and be flexible, as we have suggested. We are certainly willing to do that. If it means additional sittings, later sittings or whatever is necessary to accommodate his diary and demands, we are more than willing to have them. The key point is that the Minister for Finance should be present for the vast majority of the consideration of the Finance Bill. That has always been the case, and it is highly regrettable that it appears this will not be the case this time."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach This is the key Bill that we deal with every year. It is obviously one of the biggest Bills that comes before any committee. The T\u00e1naiste's officials and everybody else in this room will be fully aware of the mammoth task involved in dealing with it. I have never seen it like this. We can be as accommodating as possible to the T\u00e1naiste and his schedule, and we are happy to sit extra days, no problem. The three days have been agreed with the T\u00e1naiste. If there is any way in which we can facilitate his attendance, it will be the best route forward. I have seen how these Bills are dealt with. There is so much back and forth with the T\u00e1naiste, and it does allow for the teasing out of ideas. There should always be openness to ideas and viewpoints, but the opportunity to tease those out with the Minister responsible is crucial. Does the T\u00e1naiste want to contribute?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister for Finance (Deputy Simon Harris) I thank the Chair very much. First, let me state for the benefit of those watching that there was a meeting yesterday at 1 p.m. between officials of my Department and this committee. I was assured that the committee was happy with the arrangements."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Sorry, there was no meeting with the officials."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I was told by my officials - they came back and told me directly - that the schedule had been agreed. If that is not the case, fair enough. I do not want to wrong anybody. The schedule setting out when I will be at the committee and when Ministers of State will be covering for me is not news to people. The first time-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach That is-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Let me speak, because four people have spoken and made a charge against me. The committee was aware before this morning of the schedule setting out when I would be here and when other Ministers would be here, which is the Government's right, by the way. At no point did any member of the Opposition or any member of the committee voice any concern in that regard to me, my office or my Department. I thank the members for raising it now. Had it been raised in advance, it would have been dealt with by me in advance. The Chair has my number. I did not hear from her and I did not hear from anybody else on this committee. That is the first point, considering that we are now discussing this issue in public session. Nobody raised it with me. There has been significant engagement between my Department and this committee, as there always is. Second, on the broader point, I appreciate very much the constructive points being made by members of this committee and am very happy to work with them on those points. My understanding is that I am scheduled to take about nine hours this week \u2013 about five hours today, or just under that, maybe, and about four hours tomorrow, which is nine hours. I also understand that we have indicated Wednesday of next week, 11 November. I will be here until this afternoon. I am not being pedantic. I am saying I will be here for a while."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Will you be here for two to four hours? Is that it?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I was due to be here from 9.30 a.m. until 2 p.m. today."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty With a half hour break."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Yes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty That is four hours."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I am making the point that I am happy to work with the committee to be here longer. I am more than happy to do that. In terms of the schedule for next Wednesday, I have no fundamental disagreement with the points the Deputy has made. I am saying it would have been useful if we could have teased these things out in advance of being here today."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I will come in on that. There has been talk about scheduling this committee since August. This is not something that was decided yesterday and suddenly we realised we were going to have a Finance Bill today. This has been going on, and preparations have been ongoing for months. These dates were agreed with the Department. For clarity, we did not have a meeting with the Minister's officials yesterday, so I do not know where that is coming from. If we can, we need to deal with the issues we are trying to deal with in the Finance Bill. Perhaps that is something we could tease out in one of our breaks."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Yes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach It is always the case that the Finance Bill sits for three days. That is the way it is supposed to be. We have not received what hours are available for next Wednesday. Let us look at that and see what we can schedule. The crucial thing is that we should have the Minister for Finance for the Finance Bill."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I have been a member of this committee and have also been the junior finance Minister when I took a lot of this Bill for the then Minister, Michael Noonan. I am happy to work with the committee. There is no issue or opposition. The only issue or opposition I have is that this is the first time this has been discussed with me by the committee. I am happy to engage as the Chair suggests, and to look at how we can use the time available this week and next week to facilitate the wish of the committee. I am happy and eager to do that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cian O'Callaghan Sorry, Chair-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Can I just make a clarifying point-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Sorry, speak through the Chair. I call an Teachta O'Callaghan."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cian O'Callaghan I want to clarify. The Minister for Finance has told us he will be here for nine hours this week. However, we received a schedule showing seven hours of attendance. Can we have clarity on that? Is it nine hours or is it seven hours? Have we been given incorrect information or is the T\u00e1naiste providing us with incorrect information when he says nine hours? Can we have clarity on that? Second, the T\u00e1naiste said there was a meeting between his officials and officials of this committee at 1 p.m. yesterday. At 1 p.m. yesterday we had a meeting of this committee that our officials were present at. Will the T\u00e1naiste explain to us how his Department was meeting with our officials at 1 p.m. yesterday when our officials were meeting with us at 1 p.m. yesterday? Will he clarify those two things?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I am trying to speak with my officials in real time here. In fairness to them and the officials on this committee, who do an excellent job, there was engagement yesterday between officials after the meeting at 1 p.m. That is my understanding. I am not trying to go back and forth here. I am asking that we work with the committee to resolve this issue in a way that does not involve us all getting cricks in our necks trying to talk to people. I am happy to work with the committee to resolve the issue."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach We will take a break at 11.30 a.m. Will the Minister clarify the number of hours for this week?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris It is eight and a half. The committee will be taking a break within that. It is 9.30 a.m. to 2 p.m., and 2 p.m. to 6 p.m. tomorrow."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Okay."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris It is set out in a document I have in front of me that I presume members of the committee have."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty It is seven hours. I think we can all add."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris That is including the breaks."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty It is two hours in the first slot. It is two hours in the second slot and three hours in the third slot."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I am very happy-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty At the start of the Finance Bill we might all agree that is seven and not eight and a half. Is that okay?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Yes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris That is fine."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I want to clarify something. Let us not get bogged down in this, but we need to clear the air a wee bit. The finance committee agreed yesterday to work with the Minister's schedule to accommodate him. I can only speak for myself. The first few days are laid out, and the Minister of State, Deputy Troy, is taking the majority of this Bill. The Minister can correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that he has not indicated his availability for Wednesday of next week. Is that true?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I am not sure."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I know."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I am very happy at the next available suspension to indicate all of my availability."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty We will agree then. I am happy to do that. We want to try to work together to do that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach For clarity, we have a suspension at 11.30 a.m. We will go into the substance of the Finance Bill now, and it is to be hoped at the 11.30 a.m. suspension we can figure it out. If it is not fully figured out then, we will have another suspension at 2 p.m."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris That will be perfect."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Go raibh maith aguibh. We are going into the Finance Bill in its substance. Obviously, this is an annual Bill. I want to make sure that when I am doing my side of things, I am doing it correctly. That might mean I am going a bit slower or need to be corrected. It is too important to not do it correctly."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 1 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 2"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Amendments Nos. 1 and 2 are related and may be discussed together."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I move amendment No. 1: In page 7, to delete lines 24 and 25, and in page 8, to delete lines 1 and 2 and substitute the following: \u201c The first \u20ac40,000 0 per cent The next \u20ac30,044 3 per cent The remainder 8 per cent \u201d. This relates to abolition of the USC on the first \u20ac40,000 that everybody earns. To tell the truth, I did not think the Minister would have huge opposition to this. There was a time when he was parading with posters saying to abolish the USC. However, that was before a general election. He may recall the commitment he made to the public at that time. I never believed that was credible because abolishing the USC would have cost between \u20ac4 billion and \u20ac5 billion at the time. To take the first \u20ac40,000 everybody earns out of the USC tax net is achievable and affordable and was a similar cost to the tax package we see in this year's budget. The difference between that and what the Minister is proposing to do in the Finance Bill is that abolishing the USC on the first \u20ac40,000 every worker earns is a fairer way to do it. People will benefit to a maximum of over \u20ac700. For example, if you are earning \u20ac40,000 at this point and are subject to the changes the Minister wants to bring about, you will benefit to the tune of approximately \u20ac200. If you are earning \u20ac50,000 or \u20ac60,000, you will benefit to the tune of about \u20ac800. With this proposal both would benefit to the tune of more than \u20ac730. It is a fairer way. It is a more progressive way, and the reality is that the proposal the Minister has brought forward leaves the majority of workers out there benefiting by as little as \u20ac200 per year. That is simply pathetic in the context of a cost-of-living crisis. While he likes to focus on the higher number, he has to acknowledge that the facts are the facts and the majority of workers will not benefit to that level. Some of them will - I do not dispute that - but the majority of workers will not get that tax break. They will get just above \u20ac200, and that is simply not acceptable. Therefore, a fairer way to do this would be to abolish the USC on the first \u20ac40,000 that every worker in the State earns. That ensures low-income workers and those on middle incomes earning approximately \u20ac40,000 would benefit in the same way as somebody who is a high-income worker earning \u20ac100,000 or \u20ac150,000."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach The Minister can come in now. If anybody else wishes to indicate with regard to this, they can do so afterwards."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris The first point is that when we look at the budget and the Finance Bill, we have to look at everything in the round. I will speak directly to the amendments now. Deputy Doherty talked about low-income workers. A single minimum wage worker working 39 hours per week on a factory floor will gain \u20ac1,386 in their annual net income due to the budget as a reality of the increase in the national minimum wage. The lowest income worker in the country, as a result of the budget changes in the round, will see their annual net income increase by \u20ac1,386 as a result of the budget. That is not the wealthy. That is not a person earning over \u20ac50,000. That is the lowest income worker working on a factory floor. Deputy Doherty's and Deputy Farrell's amendment relates to the universal social charge, and they are seeking an amendment to the section and the related report on removing the USC from the first \u20ac40,000 a person earns, as Deputy Doherty has outlined. We all know the history of the USC. Designed and incorporated in 2011, it replaced two other charges, namely, the health and income levies. Its primary purpose was to widen the tax base and provide a steady income to the Exchequer to provide funding for public services. Deputy Doherty referenced previous elections. To be very clear, for the most recent election, into which I led my party, the commitments we made in relation to taxation in our manifesto and in the programme for Government did not include changes to the USC in respect of the first \u20ac40,000 of income. The USC is a more sustainable charge than those it replaced. It is applied at a low rate on a wide basis. In fairness to the Deputy, he has acknowledged the significant contribution that the USC has made to meeting the many and growing expenditure demands. It is expected to yield around \u20ac6 billion this year and \u20ac6.4 billion next year. Obviously, if it were to be significantly altered, it would be necessary to consider how that yield could be generated from alternative sources. In regard to the Deputy's proposal, I am advised by Revenue that it is estimated to cost \u20ac1.5 billion in the first year and \u20ac1.72 billion on a full-year basis. However, the broader concern is not the cost of the measure but that it would very significantly hollow out the USC base by removing an additional 1.19 million taxpayer units from paying the charge. In fairness, I think that is the policy intent. It is estimated that 28% of all taxpayer units will not be liable for USC in 2027. The Deputy's proposal means that approximately 2.2 million of taxpayers, or 61%, would not be liable for USC at all. This country has a very progressive personal income tax system and USC plays a crucial role in the process of income redistribution. Deputies will recall that during the economic crisis, 45% of all income earners were exempt from income tax. That was quite astonishing and it was unsustainable. It placed an unfair burden on a relatively small number of taxpayers, many of them middle-income-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Will the Minister repeat that statistic?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris A total of 45% of all income earners were exempt from income tax. That was unsustainable. It placed an unfair burden on those earners contributing to the income tax base and it exposed the vulnerability of our income tax system to economic shocks. We have a broadly based, progressive income tax system under which it is expected that most people should pay something. The majority of income earners make some contribution according to their means. That is fair and it is more sustainable than the previous situation. Having regard to the cost of the proposal and also its consequential impact on the tax base, I do not propose to accept these amendments. We announced in the budget that the ceiling on the second rate of USC, which is the 2% rate, would be increased to take account, as we do, of the increase in the national minimum wage by 79 cent per hour from \u20ac14.15 to \u20ac14.94, with effect from 1 January 2027. My final point is a fair one to make when talking about taxation. Let us just accept that all working people work hard. Everybody works hard but there are some hard-working people who receive a number of benefits and supports from the State, and rightly so, whether that be the child support payment, the back to school clothing and footwear allowance, the fuel allowance, the working family payment, a medical card, an exemption from school transport fares or State examination fees, or the enhanced national childcare subsidy. Then there is another group of workers who do not qualify for those benefits. The only way we can assist the latter is through the income tax system. The Deputy and I have a different view on this but I believe it is unfair to talk about some workers only getting X amount from the budget. That is true if we are talking only about the tax part but it leaves out a hell of a lot of other heavy lifting in terms of supports they will receive from the State through the budget versus the worker on \u20ac50,000 who might not get any, or only very few, material benefits other than what we can do on income tax. That is why we have gone for the bands and credits approach instead of the USC approach."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Does the Minister acknowledge that under his tax proposal, the majority of workers will benefit to the tune of about \u20ac200 per year?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I do not acknowledge how the Deputy is framing the question."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Does the Minister acknowledge that what he is proposing is that the majority of taxpayers, from the tax point of view, will benefit to the tune of \u20ac200 per year?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I acknowledge that there are some workers who, on the tax side, will benefit from that, but I also acknowledge-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Does the Minister acknowledge that this will apply for the majority of workers?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris If we are looking exclusively at tax-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Yes, I am looking at tax."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Yes, but I cannot just look at tax. When framing a budget, we have to look at everything. We have looked at tax and a number of other measures. When people are paying a lower amount of tax, the benefit, obviously, will be lower."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty What other measures has the Minister included in the budget that will specifically benefit people earning up to \u20ac40,000 and not those earning \u20ac70,000, \u20ac80,000 or \u20ac90,000?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris There are quite a number of measures, applicability of which depends on specific family circumstances. For example, a married one-earner couple on a low income with children will benefit from substantial enhancements to the working family payment, which is increasing by \u20ac30 per child. There are a number of other benefits to which people may be entitled as well."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I am talking about individuals. Dealing with the numbers on the pages in front of us is one thing; then there is the reality people are living. People out there are under huge pressure and they hear the Minister talking about a tax package of \u20ac1.5 billion. Then, after all that hype, individuals earning \u20ac40,000, who work hard every single day to keep this country going, find out that all the Government is providing them with is a \u20ac200 tax break. That is \u20ac4 per week. It would not buy a cup of coffee and a scone. People are telling me they feel short-changed by the Government. The Minister can talk about the minimum wage, which employers pay. This is not about the redistribution of tax. He is talking about a tax package that deliberately ensures that the majority of workers will receive only an extra \u20ac200 per year, whereas higher income workers will benefit by multiples of that figure. What I am saying to him is that there is a fairer way to do it by abolishing USC on the first \u20ac40,000 earned by everyone. Why should he or I get nearly four times more of a tax cut than somebody who is cleaning one of our hospitals? That person is being given only \u20ac200. Under my proposal, everybody earning up to \u20ac40,000 would receive the same benefit. What is missing from these provisions is fairness and that is in no way acceptable. Last year, the Government left workers high and dry. The Minister's party broke the promise it made to the electorate in its manifesto, which was to cut taxes every single year. That was the promise it put to the public and the basis on which it received its mandate. The party has broken that promise. We all, including even the Minister, I believe, acknowledge that. He was supposed to right that wrong this year but the outcome is that the majority of workers will only get \u20ac200. That is pathetic. In the middle of a cost-of-living crisis, it is nothing. Electricity prices went up by more than \u20ac300 the week of the budget. Toll charges are increasing and the cost of diesel and home heating oil will go up again on 1 January. This benefit, which is so little, is gone. My point is that there was an alternative. The Minister spoke about the cost of abolishing USC on the first \u20ac40,000 of individuals' income. It is roughly the same cost as the package he has brought forward but the difference is it is fairer. The difference is that people earning \u20ac40,000 and less would receive multiples of what he is giving them. For the same money, they would benefit far more. They are the people who need that benefit the most. That is why the Minister should adopt our proposal."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris We have a fundamental disagreement on this point. The budget was objectively progressive. Those who have the least benefit the most from it. The Deputy is suggesting that there was just the tax package and not also a range of other measures. That is fine for the purposes of the debate on the Finance Bill, where we are dealing with tax, but it is not fine in terms of framing the budget because it is not accurate. A number of measures were taken in the budget to help those most in need, including tax measures."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I have asked the Minister to tell me the other measures from which an individual earning \u20ac40,000 will benefit and which those on higher incomes will not receive a benefit."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I gave the Deputy-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty The Minister gave me an example of a low-income family. Will he give me the details for an individual on \u20ac40,000?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I have given the Deputy examples."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach One speaker at a time, please."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I put it to the Minister that there are no other measures to support the person on \u20ac40,000."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris The Deputy spoke and I think I am allowed to respond, and respond as I wish, to his point. If I were allowed to ask questions back, I would ask what percentage of people he believes should make no contribution through the income tax system. The effect of that would not just be the cost. The Deputy is right. The cost of Sinn F\u00e9in's package was not that hugely dissimilar to the cost of the Government's. I accept that point, but the narrowing of the tax base does have real implications. It effectively means the Deputy believes there is a smaller number of taxpayers who will ultimately end up having to pay more tax because other people pay nothing. I believe that every worker, or certainly lots of or most workers, should pay some contribution in accordance with their means. That is an important part of the social contract. If you want to have a large swathe of workers who do not pay any tax at all, that is effectively saying to the squeezed middle in this country, \"You pay it all. You put it on your shoulders\". I do not think that is fair. I do not think it is progressive. Everybody in this country should pay some contribution. When we got to the bad old days, when the economy of this country had crashed, the tax base had been narrowed too much. We have to reflect on that, too. I do not think it is fair to cherry-pick and say, \"This is all you did for low-income workers\", when the Deputy knows there are a range of other measures that were taken, whether it was the fuel allowance, the cut to certain fees, the enhanced national childcare scheme, the working family payment or the child support payment. There are a range of other measures that were taken as well. The rent tax credit increased further. There is a whole raft of things that will affect people depending on their individual circumstances. In relation to this, if you did not move the credits and the bands - which Sinn F\u00e9in made no provision for, because it just did the USC - the implication there is that as wages are rising in this economy, the person who gets a pay rise, works a few hours' overtime or gets a promotion ends up paying more tax. That is the effect. We have an amendment later about indexation and the like. When I met unions and employer groups, they favoured an approach around credits and bands. The workers' representatives were looking for changes around credits and bands. Otherwise, the effect is that the worker ends up paying more in tax. That is why we are increasing bands and credits. Even when we were having finance questions in the D\u00e1il, I thought there was nearly an emerging political consensus that the idea of increasing the entry point to the higher rate of tax for workers below the average income made sense. I certainly think that a hell of a lot of people, including workers' representatives and trade unions, see the benefit in that too."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty First, let me clarify this. There is absolutely no consensus that the Minister brings forward a multibillion euro tax package that leaves the majority of workers short-changed. That is what has happened. He gave them \u20ac200 of a tax cut out of a package of about \u20ac1.5 billion. I have put it to the Minister on numerous occasions. He says he needs to see this in the round. I ask him to tell me the measure in the Finance Bill that benefits the individual income earner earning \u20ac40,000 that does not benefit somebody earning \u20ac100,000. I cannot find one."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Because the Deputy is saying \"in the Finance Bill\" rather than the budget."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty In the budget."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach One person at a time."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Okay. Let us go with the Minister's idea. In the budget."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris There are a number of-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach One person at a time, otherwise nobody hears."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris The social welfare system, the fuel allowance-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty He does not get social welfare. He is on \u20ac40,000."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris The working family payment."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty He does not get the working family payment-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach One second."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty -----because he is an individual. Those two are gone. Keep going."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris The Deputy is picking one-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty We might get somewhere. Will the Minister give me an example of the person he thinks it is okay to give a tax cut to of as little as \u20ac200? Give me another measure in the budget that he benefits from and that somebody on \u20ac100,000 does not benefit from."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I would need to know their specific circumstances because-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty It is an individual income earner earning \u20ac40,000."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris It is an individual person the Deputy has mythically made up here today at the committee. I am making the point that it depends on the personal circumstances. It is not a question of whether they benefit other than somebody else. That person will benefit from a number of measures in the budget. The Deputy has a group of people who he does not believe should benefit at all. I refer to a garda married to a nurse. Why does the Deputy want them to have to enter the higher rate-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Is the Minister for real? Does he not know the amendment I have before him? Does he want me to read it out to him?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I have read it several times. It is a dangerous amendment to have-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Then the Minister should stop spoofing."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach One person at a time."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris It is a dangerous amendment."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty The amendment is very clear. Let us deal with facts. Abolish the USC on the first \u20ac40,000 that everybody earns. I ask the Minister to take back his comment on the nurse and the garda because he knows damn well that the same nurse and garda, under my proposal, would pay no USC whatsoever on the first \u20ac40,000 they earn. A nurse who is qualified and working in our maternity services, which are absolutely over-run at this point in time, or in any of our accident and emergency departments, does not earn the amount of money to actually avail of the Minister's tax cut. Does the Minister know what the newly qualified nurse gets? It is \u20ac200. Under my proposal, she would get far more. Let us deal with facts."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Okay. I will let an T\u00e1naiste isteach agus ansin, an Teachta Timmins, who has indicated."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I think usually you are allowed finish your contribution before the person interjects. The Chair has invited me to speak. The reality of the situation is that when I meet employee representative groups, trade unions and employer representative groups, and when we had significant consultation, including, by the way, from Opposition parties in D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann, many people see the benefit in a tax package that ensures people on the average income in this country do not end up paying the higher rate of tax. Many people, including in the Opposition, criticised the Government last year for not increasing the entry point to the higher rate of tax. We can produce the records and the blacks; people can log on to the website. Last year, Opposition Deputies were all saying, \"It is terrible. Everyone is going to pay a higher rate of tax because you did not do the bands and the credits.\" We have done the bands and the credits this year. I have to say to this committee that if we are going to go down a path of significantly narrowing the tax base and deciding that fewer workers should make a contribution through the income and USC tax system, that is going to bring us to a place that I do not think is good or sustainable. The programme for Government, which I have a responsibility to implement from a finance point of view, is clear. The direction of travel from an income tax policy point of view is clear. It is around bands and credits. That is in line with my own party's manifesto, that of the party of my colleagues in Government, and the programme for Government. That is what we intend to do."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leat. An Teachta Timmins is next."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Does the Minister regret holding those posters about abolishing the USC?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach It is an Teachta Timmins's speaking time now."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I would like to respond to it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty It gave the Minister a mandate to go into Government."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Edward Timmins I wish to make three simple points. First, Deputy Doherty keeps repeating \"\u20ac200\". He is incorrect there; it is \u20ac250."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty No, it is not."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach It is an Teachta Timmins's speaking time; an Teachta Doherty can come back in."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Edward Timmins It is \u20ac125 by two. That is the way the credits increased."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty The PRSI takes the benefit off them."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach It is an Teachta Timmins's speaking time. Otherwise it will just be anarchy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Okay, apologies."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Edward Timmins The second point is that this USC proposal actually reduces the total tax take. It is a cost to the Exchequer. Should that not have been ruled out of order in the first place? My last point is that we have an extremely progressive tax system, as everyone knows. It is one of the most progressive tax systems in the world and this is a push to make it even more progressive at the expense of earners over \u20ac44,000. We already have a progressive tax system. People earning \u20ac21,500 pay no income tax. They pay a small amount of USC and no income tax. We have an extremely progressive income tax system. By abolishing the USC like this, it would make it even more extreme."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Anois, an Teachta Doherty, then an T\u00e1naiste and then anybody else who wants to indicate. Glaoim ar an Teachta Doherty."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I want to make two points here. First, the Minister talks about the tax base. Let us be clear here. I agree with Deputy Timmins. The intention here is to make it more progressive, but I understand Fine Gael does not want to make it more progressive. It has argued against a policy which the Deputy says is an attempt to make our tax-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Edward Timmins It is already extremely progressive-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach The Teachta can come back in. It is easier with only one person."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty The Deputy says it is an attempt to make our tax code more progressive. Of course it is. I make no apologies for that. Let us be clear; people earning less than \u20ac44,000 should be getting more than \u20ac200 in this budget."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Edward Timmins They are already paying very little. It is the lowest-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Duine amh\u00e1in ag an am. One person at a time. It is now an Teachta Doherty's time."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Do you know something? I hope they batter Deputy Timmins's door down at the next clinic he has, every single one of them earning under \u20ac40,000. I hope the special needs assistants, SNAs, in the school are lining up. I hope-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris They batter his door down."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty -----the people who clean our hospital wards are there."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach One person at a time."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Edward Timmins And I hope-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach One person at a time."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I hope the factory worker is there and that Deputy Timmins stands up and tells him, \"We are only giving you \u20ac200 because Fine Gael believes you pay so little tax.\""},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Edward Timmins I hope the Deputy sticks to his point and does not get personal."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach One person at a time."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I hope the Deputy is as proud and as ballsy to them as he is to this committee."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Edward Timmins The Deputy is being personal. He has lost the argument."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I have not lost the argument."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach One person at a time. Just to be clear; we are here for - I do not know - the next 48 hours and we have to have one person at a time. If we lose sight of that at this point, one hour in, it is going to be a mess. An Teachta Doherty may finish his point, then the T\u00e1naiste can come in, then an Teachta Timmins and an Teachta Burke. It is a lot easier if we stick to that. Had an Teachta Doherty finished his point or does he want to finish it?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I had not finished my point. I was making the point about the tax base. First, the cost of this measure is similar in cost to the measure the Minister is bringing forward. The cost to the Exchequer is roughly the same, but it is a fairer issue. The way to deal with the tax base is to address low pay. The Minister will argue that low pay has been addressed through increases to the minimum wage. Let me put it to him like this, however. When did he give the commitment that people would have the living wage? The Government made the promise that people would have the living wage, but we are nowhere near it. It pushed the date out. It has gone out to 2029. It appears the Government has abandoned the commitment, just like it abandoned the commitment to give workers a reduction in their taxes in every single budget. That commitment has been abandoned, just like the previous commitment given where the Minister was holding a poster and telling the Irish public to vote for Fine Gael, for Leo Varadkar and Simon Harris, and they will abolish the USC. They went as far as using props. They love a wee prop. They had the poster up, the photocall and all the rest telling people, \u201cTrust us. We will abolish the USC.\u201d It was a daft idea because the people who would have benefited the most from that proposal would have been the wealthiest in society. This is not about abolishing the USC; it is about abolishing it on the first \u20ac40,000 every worker earns. Predominantly, it is about supporting low- and middle-income workers. I completely disagree with Fine Gael\u2019s position that someone on \u20ac40,000 is paying too little tax or not enough tax, as has been stated by the Minister\u2019s colleague, Deputy Timmins. It is tantamount to the problems we have with this Government. It does not understand the pressures or the real lived experience that those individuals are facing day in, day out. If it did, there would be a better tax package than what this budget offers."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach The indications I have are as follows: An T\u00e1naiste, followed by an Teachta Timmins and then an Teachta Burke. We begin with An T\u00e1naiste. One person is to speak at a time. If any member has a point to make on what anyone is saying, please indicate and I will take note of it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I hoped we had moved away from saying that we hope people batter down people\u2019s doors. Let us try to refrain from that language in this debate. Let us have civil conversations and not shout each other down or call on people to batter down people\u2019s doors. I do not think that language is particularly helpful. It is quite aggressive and dangerous. The second point I will make-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Let us be fair-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Fan soicind. One person at a time."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I am not allowing that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Deputy Doherty asked people-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach One person at a time."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris -----to batter down Deputy Timmins\u2019s door."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach It is An T\u00e1naiste\u2019s turn to speak."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty \u201cBatter\u201d is like knocking on a door. Do not try and pull cheap shots like that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach One person at a time. I am going to turn off people\u2019s microphones-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Can I speak?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach -----if we do not keep it to one person at a time because we are only at the start of this. Everyone has been doing this."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I have not."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I have been here for the past 50 minutes. We will go back to An T\u00e1naiste and then go to an Teachta Timmins, followed by an Teachta Burke. Whoever else wishes to come in can do so thereafter."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I stand by my comment. We should not be using those phrases. With regard to low-paid workers, I have outlined the Government\u2019s position regarding the minimum wage. We can all go back to party positions that parties used to hold back in the day. I am sure we can go back to party positions that Deputy Doherty and his party used to hold back in the day, which I hope they have moved on from. The reality of the situation is that we contested a general election in 2024. We outlined the taxation policies that we would pursue should we be returned to Government. Our coalition colleagues did similar. A programme for Government was formed. People can like or dislike the taxation policy, but it was clear in the manifesto and it is clear in the programme for Government. It is the position of the Government of Ireland and the direction of travel. If the bands and credits are not increased, we will end up with a situation where people end up paying more tax. I do not know what some people have against someone earning \u20ac50,000 or \u20ac60,000 or the couple earning \u20ac100,000 - the lived reality for many people in this country - who do not receive many targeted supports but need support through the tax system. That is how we keep a pro-enterprise economy. It is how we make sure work pays and those working hard can get ahead. There are many other ways we target measures at people who pay less income tax because we have a progressive tax system. There are many other ways we do that. I have outlined a number of them. The minimum wage is a policy that the Government pursued and implemented. It was not universally agreed by everyone, by the way, nor was it easy for some SMEs and others, but it makes sure the factory worker working 39 hours per week on the minimum wage, the lowest paid worker in Ireland, will see their annual net income increase by \u20ac1,386. That is a result of this budget. If we look at the highly progressive structure of our tax system, the burden of taxation falls heavily on those with a higher ability to pay. An overly progressive tax system can place an excessive burden on a small cohort of income earners. We need to be clear about that. There are a hell of a lot of people in this country - I call them the squeezed middle - who feel the burden of taxation they pay is too high. The top 5% of taxpayers in this country will pay almost 50% of all income tax and USC. The top 20%, those people earning above \u20ac77,600, will pay almost 80% of all income tax and USC paid. The bottom 80% of earners will pay just over 20% of all income tax and USC. I do not believe we should be taking any measures to further narrow that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Edward Timmins I have two points. Deputy Doherty accused me of saying that someone on \u20ac40,000 is not paying enough tax. I did not say that. That is false. At least stick to the facts. I did not say that. At the budgetary oversight committee, I asked for the credits to be increased. They ended up being \u20ac125 each, which totals \u20ac250. I asked at the budgetary oversight committee for them to go to \u20ac400. That was my contribution. We have disagreements and are never going to agree exactly. What Deputy Doherty stated is absolutely false, and I have proven it. Second, with regard to the comment about demanding and hoping that people batter down my door, the Deputy has lost the argument when he starts talking, shouting and being aggressive like that. It brings down the tone of this committee and achieves nothing. I ask Deputy Doherty to think again before he makes outlandish statements like that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Colm Burke In the budget, there is extra spending for education, healthcare and a whole lot of areas. We can only provide the extra spending. We must remember that the Government does not have any money. The money the Government has belongs to the taxpayer. Every cent spent is not the Government\u2019s money; it is taxpayers\u2019 money. It is important we put that into place. The other thing I will raise relates to the challenges we now face, both this year and into the years in the future. In 2011, there were 1.8 million people working in this country and 600,000 people retired and in receipt of an old-age pension. That was a 3:1 ratio. Currently, in Japan, I understand it is one person working for every person retired. The challenges we had from 2011 on were that the number of people retired was going to continue to grow. We now have approximately 890,000 people in retirement. That is a huge demand on the State, and it will continue. Within three years, it will be 1 million. However, we have increased employment by over 1 million people since 2011, which means we still have a ratio of 3:1. We have one person retired for every three people working. This is where we are going to have to be careful with our financial management because the number of people in retirement is going to continue to increase and, therefore, we need to plan for it. In fairness to the budget, it is about balance and making sure that the taxpayers\u2019 money \u2013 it is not the Government\u2019s money \u2013 is spent wisely and carefully managed. That is basically what this budget does."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question proposed: \"That section 2 stand part of the Bill.\""},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Section 2 is linked to the minimum wage. The changes in the tax section here are linked to the increase in the minimum wage and the increase in the minimum wage is linked to the policy position in relation to the living wage. I discussed this earlier with the Minister. The Government of which the Minister was a part in 2022 made a commitment to achieve a living wage for workers. The date for the achievement of that objective has now passed. The Government delayed it until 2029, asking workers to wait longer, and now it appears that it is completely abandoned. Will the Minister confirm to this committee that the Government currently has no timeframe to achieve the living wage objective?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ged Nash The Minister will know that this is an issue close to my heart and I feel quite proprietorial about it, having set up the Low Pay Commission back in 2015. It seems to me that the Low Pay Commission and the legislation underpinning it are under attack. We had performative behaviour from certain figures in government in advance of the budget, making out that there was a distinct possibility that, for the first time since the foundation of the Low Pay Commission, its rather modest proposition in relation to a small incremental increase in the adult rate of the national minimum wage would be rejected. Clearly, though, what was happening there was that the ground was being set not for the rejection of the Low Pay Commission\u2019s recommendation, but for the further postponement of the ambition to reach a living wage in this country. Now, if the Government really believed that work should pay, and it says time and again that it wants to make work pay, then the signal would be clearly sent to Irish workers that this Government backed them and their ambition for a living wage. It is a modest request in an economy that is doing very well. It is realistic and reasonable for working people to ensure that their labour is rewarded in a productive economy. We know that there is a concentration of those who are on the minimum wage and would wish to move to a living wage in the indigenous enterprise sector, in locally traded services, in retail and hospitality and so on. On the one hand, the Government decided last year to give an enormous tax break to the hospitality sector but, on the other hand, it is saying to the working people who depend on that sector for their incomes that they have to wait. As Deputy Doherty requested in his amendment and in his articulation of his position there, my sense of this is that the Government is leaving the living wage to the next Government to sort out. It has already been postponed and the Government is postponing it again to 2029 or beyond. Is it the case that this Government has dropped its ambition for a living wage and it sees this as a matter to be addressed by the next Government?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cian O'Callaghan The commitment from the previous Government and, indeed, from the previous leader of Fine Gael, Leo Varadkar, was for a living wage that would be in place by 2026. There was a clear recognition that this was what low-paid workers needed and that they deserved a living wage for what they contributed so that they would be able to live an affordable life and be able to pay for the absolute basics. That is what the living wage is set at to ensure people can meet their basic living costs. That was pushed out to 2029, and now the increases being made in the minimum wage are so incremental that it seems impossible that we would get there by 2029. Will the T\u00e1naiste say if the commitment is to get there by 2029? Is that aim still in place and is the Government committed to it? If so, how is the Government going to get to a living wage in 2029? If it is not going to be done and the Government has abandoned that commitment, why has it abandoned it? I ask the T\u00e1naiste to provide clarity on this aspect."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris The first thing I want to say is that I do believe work should pay. The debate is around how we can best ensure that work does pay. We can do that in a number of ways. The first is by making sure that people have a job, and we never take this for granted. Second, we need to listen to people who create jobs, including the many who own small and medium enterprises, who are saying they are now hiring fewer people or are not giving a summer job to this person or a part-time job to that person because the Oireachtas, in its collective wisdom, has pushed a lot of additional costs on small businesses. It is the truth that every time we have a bright idea in this place that we do not have to pay for, it has a real implication on people who lie awake at night looking at the ceiling wondering whether they will be able to pay the wage bill. I have never been one of those people. Maybe some members have, but I have not. We need to be conscious of the fact that we can come up with policies and can look at them in isolation but that what we do can sometimes cause worry elsewhere. I will reflect on this. I was involved with some of these policies. Too many things were thrown at small businesses over a short period. Each in itself might have seemed fine, but the cumulative impact has had a negative effect on job creation, particularly in SMEs. I am concerned about that. Deputy Nash rightly reminded us about the time he set up the Low Pay Commission . He will also remember the time when we had 15% unemployment. We never take full employment for granted. I cannot account for speculation in advance of the budget announcement about the national minimum wage and so on, other than to say that I think with one exception, perhaps during the Covid-19 pandemic - I stand open to correction - successive Governments have always gone with the recommendation of the Low Pay Commission. We did so again this year, although it was not easy for employers. We also took a decision to increase the PRSI ceiling a little to try to somewhat absorb that impact. We are all constituency TDs. We know that when we tell people that they suddenly have to pay an extra 79 cent per hour - we do not have to pay it - it has a real impact. We tried to cushion some of that increase because lower income workers needed it. We wanted them to have the benefit of more than \u20ac1,300 in additional net income because work should pay. We went a little further on the PRSI ceiling to cushion some of it. It is not a sustainable situation that, on he one hand, the Government throws an extra burden on employers through a significant national minimum wage increase and, on the other, uses public money to offset its impact. That is not sustainable beyond what we had to do this year. We have increased the national minimum wage consistently. It has increased six times since 2020. It has increased by approximately 50% in that period, from \u20ac10.10 in 2020 to \u20ac14.94 in 2027. To be clear, that is a good thing. I am proud that we keep increasing the minimum wage. When account is taken of the increase in the national minimum wage and combined with the tax changes, individuals earning the national minimum wage will have seen their net income increase by \u20ac7,837 or 41.5% during that period. The gross income of a full-time worker on the minimum wage next year will increase by \u20ac1,602. As I set out earlier, that is an annual net increase of \u20ac1,386. I do not have policy responsibility for this, but I can, as a member of the Government, speak about it. In advance of Report Stage, we can get an update from the Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment. We are removing the obligation on the Low Pay Commission to factor in the living wage timeline as a consideration each year when it sets the recommendation for the national minimum wage. If we are not going to do that - and different people have different views - we have to be honest about it. If we tell small businesses that the 79 cent increase will be the new norm, I am not sure it will not have a significant impact on job creation and sustainability. This is about a balance. We have increased the national minimum wage consistently. I expect we will continue to do so and work with the Low Pay Commission. I am proud we have the Low Pay Commission, but in fairness to it, it follows the policy direction of various Governments or Ministers. I am sure Deputy Nash gave one back in the day."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ged Nash It is the law."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Yes, it is the law. Ministers can issue policy directions to ask the commission to take this or that into consideration. The rigidity of it having to hit the living wage by a certain date is having a significant impact on the amount by which the national minimum wage is increasing each year in many ways and I think there is a sustainability issue around that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ged Nash The tragedy of this is that if the kinds of increases that have been train in recent years were to continue, the living wage would be met soon. That is why it is now starting to look ideological from some Ministers and quite vindictive. Workers look at the host of corporate welfare initiatives introduced in recent years. I do not want to make a judgment call on those. Some of them, certainly at the height of the pandemic and in response to Russia's illegal invasion of Ukraine, were absolutely merited and warranted, but they have now been placed on rinse and repeat and are costing the taxpayer - the Minister, me, people watching and small businesses that are not benefiting from them - significant amounts of money. It seems that there is a dependence on supports from the Government among businesses across the economy in order to survive. On the one hand, we say that is fine, but, on the other hand, on the ambition for a living wage, the message being sent to working people is that we do not really believe work pays. It is a nice slogan, something we will trot out every now and again to give them the sense we have their backs. In the supporting documentation published on budget day, when various analyses were articulated, I noted that a single full-time worker on the national minimum wage would benefit in the amount the T\u00e1naiste put on the record this morning. That does not tell the whole story because one of the issues minimum workers have is access to hours. There are a good number of people on the national minimum wage who are not full-time workers. We also need to be conscious that the income of workers in the bottom two deciles is dependent on keeping the link with the national minimum wage. It does not only affect the few hundred thousand people who directly earn the minimum wage; it also affects several hundred thousand more people who work in locally traded services. Is there an intention to change the legislation governing the Low Pay Commission? To listen to some of the T\u00e1naiste's backbenchers, people would think this figure is pulled out of the air and is subject to public pressure and a media narrative about low pay. The idea of the Low Pay Commission was to introduce an evidence-based way to propose the rate of minimum wage that was fair to working people but was also fair to businesses and that businesses could absorb and work with. It is clear in the legislation that the Low Pay Commission is legally bound to take into account productivity, competitiveness and all these things when making its decision. We also have an obligation to transpose a minimum wage and collective bargaining directive that is slightly different from what was originally envisaged. The Commission will have to things to say about that as well. The debate is welcome, but we need the living wage. If it is the case that we want to decide to drop the ambition of a living wage, the alternative is to introduce stronger collective bargaining systems to allow a legal framework nationally for trade unions and business representative organisations to come together to customise solutions for their sectors, but the Government is limited in its ambition in that regard."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cian O'Callaghan I am concerned that the T\u00e1naiste appears to be saying that the commitment to a living wage has been abandoned - that appears to be the case - and that the Government does not intend to bring in the living wage by 2029. By all means, he can contradict what I said if it is not the case, but from what he said there clearly seems to be an abandonment of that goal. The idea of the living wage is that people who are working for the minimum wage can meet the basic standard of living, including housing, food, health, transport and energy costs. They can just meet their basic costs. For his entire political life, the T\u00e1naiste has said that work should pay, yet by abandoning the commitment to the living wage, he is abandoning support for the idea that people who work in low-paid, minimum wage jobs, are able to meet those basic costs. It is not a radical idea that if people on minimum wage do their jobs, they should be able to meet the basic food, energy, housing, transport and health costs that everyone has to meet. These are not discretionary items. The money of low-paid workers goes into the local economy. It goes into small businesses. It is incredibly circular. It is not like the income of highly paid workers, as a significant portion of their income may be spent elsewhere. It is going back into the local economy supporting local jobs and businesses. The ESRI recently published a study on the effect of the increases in the minimum wage. It clearly showed, first, that it did not lead to job losses or have an impact on jobs and, second, that it did not have an impact in terms of consumer prices. That was the ESRI's independent analysis of this and that should be fully taken on board. The response from the T\u00e1naiste is very disappointing. It is alarming, really, that the commitment that was in place for a living wage, which was initially for 2026 and then postponed to 2029, has been absolutely abandoned by the Government."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Has the world not changed a hell of a lot since 2024? There is an awful lot going on at the moment in terms of trying to keep jobs and employment. The Deputy is a constituency TD and so am I. I guarantee that when he walks into a local shop, hotel, restaurant or caf\u00e9, or when he walks along any of the main streets of our towns and villages, he will see that the impact of the scale of additional costs on those is real. I am not talking about the big, massive employers in this country but the bulk of businesses - SMEs - in which people work in Ireland. I am proud that the Government has introduced statutory sick pay, but there is a cost there. I am very proud that we introduced auto enrolment, but there is a cost to the employer there too. There is a cost with extra bank holidays. All these things are good policies to pursue but the bill has to be picked up by someone who is not the Deputy or me. We have to get that balance right because the cost base facing small businesses is real and acute. Yes, work should always pay but the responsibility for making sure work should always pay is not just on the small and medium business owner. We can debate what the correct taxation policy is, or what the Deputy believes it to be, but it is also up to the Government to make sure that work pays and that people who are working hard can live well in this country whether it is through childcare measures, the taxation burden, the working family payment or the child support payment. I do not want this debate to get conflated between the national minimum wage and the living wage. Since I have been in government, we have nearly always increased the national minimum wage. We consistently increase the national minimum wage. I am proud of the decisions we have made to increase the pay of low-income workers in this country. I am proud that we established the Low Pay Commission. Deputy Nash reminds us that there is a whole load of criteria that the Low Pay Commission is meant to, and does, take into consideration including things like competitiveness. I do not dispute that at all. I think we should go further on collective bargaining because knowing who you are engaging with and negotiating with is a good thing for stability. I do not dispute that and have talked to the ICTU about that. I agree with that. We discuss this at LEEF all the time. However, the idea that there is a rigidity around the living wage having to be reached by a certain date above and beyond all other criteria is having a distorting effect. I believe that to be the case. This is not ideological; in fact, it is pragmatic. I know Deputy Nash will not agree with me on that, and nor will Deputies O\u2019Callaghan or Doherty, and I get that but this is something we have to balance. I read the ESRI report. That is true what it said about the minimum wage but that was about the minimum wage which we increased again this year, which we increased last year and which we keep increasing. Next year it will have increased by 50% from where it was in 2020. Work will pay but the idea that with the living wage it is that way and no other way \u2013 that way or the highway and if we do not do that we are not committed to making work pay \u2013 is not true. We have to listen in politics as well. We have to be conscious that creating jobs is bloody tough. Keeping jobs and paying the wage bill is tough. When we keep coming up with concepts in here that we do not have to worry about their delivery or paying for them, we are in a luxurious position as politicians. Of course we have a responsibility to all people but we have to listen. There has to be a balanced approach to this. The minimum wage is rising above the rate of inflation. The tax burden is falling. We are taking a number of interventions to try to help people with the costs in their lives, particularly for low-income workers around things like working family payments, child support payments, the expansion of the back-to-school footwear and clothing allowance to preschool, and the fuel allowance increases. These are good things that we should be doing and doing more of, but we have to take a more partnership approach with businesses, particularly SMEs, around how we make work pay and not just all press the \"T\u00e1\" button in here and pass on the cost to the butcher and baker; I am not sure about the candlestick maker. These are real issues that people face."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I have indications from an Teachta Doherty and an Teachta O\u2019Callaghan. If anyone else wishes to indicate, please do so."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty This section, which deals with the USC and the treatment of the increase in the minimum wage, is tied in to the living wage. The increase in the minimum wage is one of the methods to get to the living wage. There is another method of getting to the living wage, which is to reduce the costs. If you reduce the cost of housing or childcare, the number the living wage needs to be set at will also change. The living wage is what it says on the tin; it is what is required for people in this country to be able to live. It is not some great ambition we have that everybody will be able to book holidays left, right and centre. It is just about enough to get by. This is something that a republic should be doing as a bare minimum. We should be making sure our workers are treated in a way that allows them to have a life that is just about comfortable just so they can live. There was an ambition there. The Government had a target, it missed the target, it extended it to 2029 and now the T\u00e1naiste has confirmed to the committee that the Government has no target date for when that target is to be achieved. That is a major mistake. I hear the T\u00e1naiste's argument that small and medium enterprises have to pick up the tab on this. I get that and it is not just in relation to the increase in the minimum wage; it is over and over again. The regulations the Government brings in mean an additional \u20ac1,000 here or an additional \u20ac500 there. It all adds up and it is small and medium enterprises that have to pick up those tabs. There is a duty on policy makers to step back and not just look at the individual circumstances. It is important that we look from both sides. We have to ask ourselves a serious question: why does this country have one of the highest pre-tax income inequalities in the European Union? Why was it that Eurostat said just three years ago that we were top of the list? How come one in five workers is deemed to be low paid in this economy or society? There is a serious problem here. Other countries have been able to grapple with this. We grapple with it by dealing with it from a taxation point of view and making a progressive taxation system that tries to distribute income in that way. We deal with it through measures like the family payment, HAP and other social welfare transfers that narrow that inequality. Other countries do not have what we have to start off with, which is a huge number of low-paid workers in their society and then a large number of high-paid workers. What we have here is not common. That is the point. Getting to a living wage addresses that pre-tax inequality. It reduces the burden on the Exchequer to deal with the type of transfers that are required, whether they are through the taxation system or the social welfare system, to make income a little bit more equal. The living wage is just one measure that would allow us to get to that point. It is not acceptable, and it should not be acceptable, from a policy perspective that one in five workers in this State are low paid. It goes to the T\u00e1naiste's point about widening the tax burden. How do you widen the tax burden? You do it by making sure that one in five of our workers are not low paid. If those workers were paid properly, decently or at a higher level, they would be paying tax. They would start getting into the taxation bracket. If they are already paying tax, they would pay more tax. That is how you broaden the tax base. The reason we have a section of workers who are not paying income tax \u2013 the number is not as high as the T\u00e1naiste suggests \u2013 is because we have so many who are low paid. That is the problem here."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cian O'Callaghan The T\u00e1naiste has dismissed the idea of reaching the living wage by a certain year. The Government target was 2029 and the Minister has dismissed it as some form of rigidity. That target was set by the Government the Minister was a part of, and now he is casually dismissing it as some sort of rigidity. When that commitment was made, did the Government not mean it? Has the Minister just decided now all of a sudden that setting a target and giving a year is rigidity and that we cannot do that any more? Does that apply to everything else the Minister gives commitments to? The commitment was given in 2016, by a previous Government the Minister was part of, that by 2026 we would have a living wage. Then it was 2029 and now, as we get closer to 2029, the Minister dismisses it and says we cannot be rigid because a lot has changed in the last few years. A lot has changed in the last few years, particularly for low-paid workers in terms of the costs they are facing and the cost-of-living crisis. That has changed. It is more difficult than ever and yet, at the very time they need a living wage, the Minister is abandoning that commitment. There are things that need to be done to support smaller businesses in terms of their cost base, absolutely. This Government has failed spectacularly on one of them. As a country, we should have more affordable electricity prices for households and small businesses. This Government has spectacularly failed in terms of delivering the amount of renewable energy we need, which would bring down bills for small businesses. If you walk into any caf\u00e9, supermarket, restaurant or any other small business around the country and look at their electricity bills, they are a lot higher than they should be. If you go to some of the poorest countries in this world, you will find their entire electricity production, in some cases, is from renewable energy. Their entire electricity production is from renewable energy in some of the poorest countries in this world. We are one of the wealthiest countries in this world, yet we have not been able to do that, even though we are an island in the Atlantic with huge potential for wind energy. That is one of the ways the Minister could help and support smaller businesses but the Government has failed to do that. We need to do more there, but saying that low-paid workers should not be able to meet the bare minimum they need to live on, which is what the living wage is set by, is not the way to do that. I urge the T\u00e1naiste and the Government to rethink this and recommit to a target. Do not dismiss a target for low-paid workers that it is somehow rigidity. When the Government did it previously, it was not rigidity. The Minister was part of that Government. Now that he is failing to meet the target, he is all of a sudden dismissing it as some form of rigidity."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris We are not failing to meet it. We are making a conscious decision to accept that the world has changed since November 2022, when this was introduced. Since November 2022, we have had the prolonged, brutal and illegal of invasion of Ukraine. We have had one of the largest inflation crises in our collective lifetimes. We have an ongoing energy crisis with the closure of the Strait of Hormuz. Quite frankly, if the Deputy and I walk into a caf\u00e9 today and asked them what they think of the living wage, they will not think it is me who is out of touch with the pressures they are facing. They will not, because I talk to these people all of the time. They actually think there is a view in here that is ideological, which is that the small business has to sort out all of the challenges. While Deputy Doherty and I will not agree on the solution to this, and while he will be highly critical of my record and I will be highly critical of his policy, I actually find myself more in agreement with the idea there are many different ways of squaring a circle here. When I knock on doors and meet people, they do not ask me when I am going to introduce the living wage. They ask me when I am going to reduce their childcare costs, or when they can increase their take-home pay. We need to stop buying into this idea that it has to be this way and actually start engaging in different ways. If you reduce childcare costs for somebody, increase the rent tax credit, make it easier for someone to buy their first home or make it easier for someone to buy an EV, charge it and reduce their energy bills or put solar panels on their roof, these are things that help. I am extremely committed to making work pay. We have just increased the national minimum wage again and this time by 79 cent, which was way above inflation. For somebody working full time - people can only be paid for the hours they work, Deputy Nash - for 39 hours a week, will be over \u20ac1,300 better off, net, as a result of this budget. The idea that the Oireachtas will have a dearth of ideas and ambition such that the only solution is that the small caf\u00e9 owner will take the hit is the reason so many people think politics is out of touch. We have to listen to people. I am extremely committed and I do not need any lectures about making sure that work pays and making sure the tax system is fair. I can give a whole list of things we have done to help people with their living costs. For low- and medium-income workers, if their kid is gone to school today, they will get free school books and free school meals. If their kid is under the age of eight, they will get free GP care. If the kid is under the age of 9, they will have free public transport. The national childcare subsidy scheme is going up again. There is a whole raft of things we are doing to help people, but there are also limitations to what the Government can do and there certainly should not be an arrogance or cockiness from the Government or the Oireachtas that we can just keep heaping more things onto SMEs. If we do that, we will end up back where this country was in the dark days when I entered this place and there was 15% unemployment. The first job of the Government is to protect the economy, make sure people have a job and absolutely make sure work is rewarded. However, I do not buy into this view that it is this way or the highway. I do not. I can only account for my actions. I became leader of my party and I am very clear on the direction. I have no issue with the living wage as a concept but I have one with this rigidity around having to hit it by this year or else. No. We need to be a bit better than that. We need to say we will increase the minimum wage but that we will also look at what we can do to help people with this bill and that cost. That is all we are saying, and we are saying it against the backdrop of the national minimum wage having risen repeatedly - quite rightly - and now being about 50% higher than it was in 2020. That record needs to be viewed in the round, too."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Edward Timmins There was a relevant issue brought up there about income inequality and the narrative being painted that there is massive income inequality in Ireland. The best, most well-known way of measuring inequality is the Gini coefficient. Ireland's income inequality is 7% below the EU average. We actually had the eight lowest Gini coefficient out of the 27 EU countries for 2025. I just wanted to put that on the record."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Are there any other indications to speak? I will call an Teachta Doherty and then an Teachta Nash. Indications make it easier."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty What Deputy Timmins just said is true and I am not disputing that, but he is missing the point that was made. It is the pre-tax and market inequality. It is basically what is paid by employers. We have one of the most unequal systems in Europe. We were actually the worst in 2023. I do not know if we are still the worst but we are very close to the top. The point is that it is because of tax transfers and social welfare transfers that the State has to step in-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Edward Timmins It is a progressive system, yes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach One speaker at a time, please."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty -----to make it a bit more equal. That is the issue. The issue is that we should not have to be like this. We are out of kilter with the rest of Europe. We are the worst in class in terms of pay inequality. That is the point, but I take Deputy Timmins's point. When the State steps in, it makes it more equal."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach An Teachta Nash has indicated next. If people wish to speak, please indicate clearly."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ged Nash That is exactly the point. I do not want to be at cross purposes with Deputy Timmins. It is important to put on record that the points he made were about the situation after significant State interventions had been made. On my own political philosophy, I came into this House at the same time as the T\u00e1naiste and the objective was to get people back to work. I came into politics to represent the interests of working people and ensure there is that balance across the economy that he referred to. There is no pay without good jobs. We cut our political teeth nationally dealing with the most challenging crisis the country has ever faced. I am proud of my country. I am proud of what the country has managed to achieve economically and fiscally over the last period. We absolutely have to be conscious of the risks that are there, but we need to be conscious too of the fact that the people who paid the heaviest price were the people on low pay and middle incomes, who are just about surviving. They need to see some light at the end of tunnel that means they will have a decent standard of living for them and their kids. That involves ambition from the Government around a living wage and improving their standards of living. It means the introduction of what we describe as a social wage and the kinds of childcare supports that are taken for granted in equivalent countries across Europe. It means having that fair tax system. The Minister was absolutely right to put on the record earlier that there is a very small proportion of high-income earners who are paying a very significant portion of our income tax in this country. We should not lose sight of that, which is proof of the fact there are good jobs to be had and people are working hard. People are working hard across the economy, but the point I have always made about the minimum wage is this. Having a strong minimum wage means that work pays, incentivises work and takes the burden away from the State. Philosophically speaking, Christian democrats across Europe, Fine Gael's sister parties, will say that. High wages reduce the burden on the Exchequer and then allows it to do the things that it needs to do and not spend hundreds of millions of euro every year on working family payments and so on to subsidise low pay that is often allowed to predominate in some large and significant corporations, including multinationals, large supermarket chains and so on, which would not allow a trade union in the door."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"NEW SECTION"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I move amendment No.2: In page 8, between lines 5 and 6, to insert the following: \u201cReport on universal social charge 3. The Minister shall, within 3 months of the passing of this Act, prepare and lay before D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann a report on removing the universal social charge from the first \u20ac40,000 a person earns.\u201d."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Is the amendment being pressed?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Yes."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 3"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question proposed: \"That section 3 stand part of the Bill.\""},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I am not going to rehash the issues in relation to the unfairness that the Government has provided to the majority of workers out there who benefit by just a little over \u20ac200. To tell the truth, it is a disgrace. Given the fact that they did not receive anything last year, \u20ac200 in the space of two years is really bad. Does the Minister know what made it worse? All of the Government's spin as well about it being a \"workers' budget\". Does he know that it really hurt people? I do not know if they are telling him straight up but that hurt people. The Government lifted their expectations and told them that it was coming to their rescue and then gave them \u20ac200. Those points are well-laboured. I want to ask two questions. The first is whether the income tax package was based on inflation projections for next year that were in excess of 3%; I think it was 3.4% or something like that. Inflation figures released yesterday show that inflation is now running at 4%. Last year, the Government produced a budget. I acknowledge that the Minister was just dealing with the tail end of it in fairness to him, but his party and the Minister signed off on it in Cabinet. The inflation projection was 1.8% in that budget. Inflation turned out to be double that which, again, means that the Government completely underestimated the pressures that ordinary workers and families were under. Inflation is again running ahead of projections and is up half a per cent over the past month. Does the Minister really think that this cuts it given the fact that the Government got it so wrong last year with the inflation projections? I understand that nobody in the Department of Finance has a crystal ball. I get that, but the problem is when the Government designs policy, and it thinks that it is insulating or trying to insulate people, but prices are actually rising twice as fast as what it thought. That is a serious problem, and we already have indications that it is going ahead of where it was projected. The Minister gives stock to different reports that have been produced, but I am sure that he has read the report from the independent Parliamentary Budget Office, which was set up by the Houses of the Oireachtas. The report has concluded that when both budgets that the Minister has overseen are taken into account, households across all income brackets are worse off. With the exception of the austerity years, that has never been achieved before. I would love to know if there is any country in the world that has billions of euro in surpluses and has introduced two budgets that have left households across all income levels worse off. That is a record that is probably unmatched by any state. It is quite shocking. When people say to me that they think things are tougher and that they feel poorer, the reality is that they are. It is not that they feel it; the reality is that they are. This is independently assessed. The Government's budget this year, which is still to take effect, and last year's have left households across all incomes worse off, according to the Parliamentary Budget Office. I ask the Minister that question in terms of inflation and where he sees it going given that it is already running ahead of projections and this year it is twice as much as what the Government projected. The second question relates to a claim made by the Minister, and we all get things wrong, which is fair enough. He made a claim on Virgin TV during his media interactions on the budget that one third of workers do not pay income tax. It is important that he corrects that. That is not true. It is not factual. It is misinformation. As I said, it could be a genuine error, but it is important that he understands that it is not true because if he believes that, he is believing something that is false and designing policy on the back of it. He is conflating taxpayer units and workers. They are two different things, and the statistics that he is looking at which do not include a third anyway - it is 29%, so it is just above a quarter - are taxpayer units. They are not workers. They majority of them are, but they also include people who are, for example, on disability allowance, pensioners and people who have never been in a position to work because of disabilities or otherwise. They are not workers, so it is important to just correct that because these things then get repeated and taken as fact, which is not the case in this instance. I give the Minister the opportunity to address that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris What the Deputy said is right. They are taxpayer units, and I am happy to clarify that. I have a couple of points. The Deputy did not wish to rehash how he did not agree with our income tax policy but then did a bit a rehash. I will not rehash all that I have said on how the budget needs to be viewed in the round. Income tax is one way of helping people. There are a number of other ways that we help people. Some are targeted measures. Others are universal measures. When the Deputy said that the budget was hyped or that it was not a budget for workers, there needs to be some sort of dose of reality in terms of the conversations that we have. There are few governments in Europe that are in a position to reduce income taxes and increase public spending, as well as bringing in a range of measures. The Deputy can agree or disagree with the formula that we followed and we have different views on that, which is fair enough. He is the lead Opposition spokesperson on finance. He has a job to do, and I respect that, but he always says that the Government should do more or that it should everything. That is fine. However, the Government has brought about a scale of interventions to assist people with the cost of living that is pretty much unparalleled. I will attend the Eurogroup and ECOFIN meetings on Monday and Tuesday of next week and I will listen as colleagues around the table say what they are doing in their countries. There needs to be that sense of reality as well. This Government is intervening at a scale that is unparalleled across the European Union, and we are only able to do that because of the way the economy has been managed, the level of taxes that are coming in and then the decisions which we have often been criticised for in the past around budget surpluses and not spending all of the money, etc. The point the Deputy made on inflation is a very fair one. As he acknowledged, nobody, including officials, have a crystal ball and I take that point too, but the very best thinking in the economics division of the Department of Finance goes into this process every year - the Deputy and I do not dispute that - and then those figures are endorsed by the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council, IFAC. We went through the same process this year as well, so the figures around inflation for this year and indeed for 2027 are produced independently of me, quite rightly, by the Department of Finance and are then endorsed by IFAC. The Deputy and I can make the point that things, unforeseen and the likes, can happen, but it the best thinking and they are best projections in the Department of Finance, which is then crucially endorsed by the fiscal advisory council as well. The Deputy made the point about the independent Parliamentary Budget Office and that it examined the two budgets. In relation to this budget, the ESRI looked at budget 2027 - and the Deputy will have read that report as well - and it talks about the benefits and about a budget that is broadly progressive with low-income households benefitting the most. Low-income households are better off not only in absolute terms but also compared to both the price index and the wage index budget benchmarks as well. The ESRI's longer term analysis of the last seven budgets finds that policy changes since 2020 have contributed to reducing poverty rates across all groups. We are on section 3 and the Deputy's fair question on inflation. If we look at what we have done on the personal tax credits, we will see that it is an increase of around 6.3%, which is well above what we are projecting inflation to be. The increase in the standard rate cut-off point of 5.7% is well above what we are projecting inflation to be. Wage growth in the economy is estimated to be around 4.1% above what we are projecting inflation to be. I will be honest here. I am not claiming and have never claimed that this Government or any Government has been able to absorb all the impact of the global energy crisis. In fact, I regularly say that. I said it on budget day, I think. I say it all the time. That is why the people the Deputy and I meet are feeling the pressure. I do not say this flippantly or dismissively and we will get to it later in the Bill. I am sure they would be feeling more pressure without the measures we have taken to try to help with petrol and diesel prices. That is one of the reasons we are regularly not in the top ten in the European Union. That does not mean they are not still really high. I get that point. I do not think the Deputy and I disagree on that point. People have been adversely impacted in their own finances, in their own homes, in their own businesses and in their own standard of living as a result of the very serious global economic outworkings of war. The Government is trying to respond to that as best we can. The Opposition is putting forward its ideas on how to respond to that. There is nobody in government and I doubt if there is anybody in opposition suggesting we can absorb all of that impact. I do not dispute that the people the Deputy is meeting are real. I meet them too and the impact is real. We just have a different view. I believe I am pursuing the right policies and the Deputy believes his are better."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"NEW SECTION"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach We will be taking a break in approximately eight minutes. I am just flagging it now because we will have to stop the conversation then."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ged Nash I move amendment No. 3: In page 9, between lines 9 and 10, to insert the following: \u201cReport on indexation of income tax bands, tax credits and universal social charge 4. The Minister for Finance shall, within six months of the passing of this Act, prepare and lay before D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann a report on the indexation of the income tax rate bands, personal tax credits and universal social charge rate bands, which shall set out\u2014 (a) the extent to which the amendments made by sections 2 and 3 maintain, increase or reduce the real value of each band and credit concerned, for 2027 and cumulatively since 2022, measured by reference to\u2014 (i) the Consumer Price Index, and (ii) average weekly earnings, (b) an estimate of the additional income tax and universal social charge arising in 2027 by reason of those amendments falling short of full indexation by reference to each of the measures referred to in paragraph (a) , (c) the distributional impact, by income decile and household type, of the amendments made by sections 2 and 3 as compared with full indexation by reference to each of those measures, (d) the annual cost to the Exchequer of providing by law for the indexation of those bands and credits by reference to each of those measures, and (e) the relative distributional effect of indexing personal tax credits as compared with indexing rate bands.\u201d. We have had quite a general discussion on taxation and related matters since the engagement commenced. This is a form of amendment I have introduced on multiple occasions over the years. As the T\u00e1naiste intimated earlier, there appeared to be a political consensus in recent years that the best way to ensure that work paid and that a goodly sum of the modest wage increases were not going back to the Exchequer was to index PAYE tax bands and credits. It is something that to an extent has been done this year. However, we know workers are paying the price of that this year. The Government failed to do that last year and, in my view, is paying a price for that. In reality, working people would be better able to absorb some of the additional costs that have arisen over the last 12 months if a portion of the space available for tax cuts last year was used to index PAYE tax bands and credits rather than the alternative approach taken by the T\u00e1naiste which was to introduce, for example, VAT rate cuts for the hospitality sector and for apartment developers. Several countries across the European Union have a form of indexation of their equivalent of PAYE every year. In some ways it takes the drama out of budgets. It gives businesses certainty over the pay agenda and it gives workers some form of certainty over their own household budget planning when there is an expectation that a form of indexation will take place, and that would be welcome. When I have tabled these types of amendments over the years, they have been rejected. Ministers for Finance traditionally like to save for themselves the possibility of pulling various rabbits out of hats on budget day or at least in advance. We now know that the run-up to the budget every year has become something of a media circus and sometimes it can be quite unbecoming and disrespectful of the D\u00e1il and even the executive arm of the Government because most of the contents of the budget is available to the media well in advance of the budget. I do not think that is a good way of doing business. In any case, I am not the Minister and I am not in government. That is a matter for the T\u00e1naiste and his colleagues. The amendment calls for a report on how, if the principle is conceded, indexation would be done, what the cost would be and what the best way of doing that would be. It seeks to harvest information on how this works, comparative information on a yearly basis, to find out who is benefiting from indexation. Something we do not do in this country is keep a close eye on the impact of tax changes on the Exchequer, the impact of changes we make on various deciles in terms of working people and so on. I believe the amendment speaks for itself and I look forward to hearing the T\u00e1naiste's view on it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach As we have approximately four minutes left, the T\u00e1naiste might like to begin his response and then we will cut it. He can then come back in at the beginning of the next session."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I agree on one point. I always make the point that the Deputy is very good at the media bits, himself. That political jibe aside, let me make the point that I agree that the more we can demystify the budgetary process, the better. In the budget day speech this year, I tried to make it clear that the programme for Government is the direction of travel on taxation policy for the next three budgets that this Government will have left after this budget. I fully respect that we have different views on this. However, for workers, for businesses and for planning purposes, the direction of travel this Government intends to take is to build on the taxation formula we used this year in terms of credits and bands. There will be different views, but I think that anchoring income tax policy for the next number of years is a useful thing to do to enable people to plan. Although we found out at this committee that there is not a full political consensus, I think there are lots of political parties, some of which are in government and some of which are in opposition, that see the benefit of, let us call it, the tax and credits route rather than different routes in terms of reducing tax on work. I personally support that as well and that is the direction of travel. I accept Deputy Nash's sincerity on this issue because I have heard him talk about it for a long number of years. Indeed, I recall us having an exchange on Report Stage in the D\u00e1il last year as well. This amendment seeks a report to evaluate the impact of indexing the income tax and USC system. As I have already said, the programme for Government commits to implementing progressive changes in taxation if the economy remains strong, including indexing credits and bands to prevent an increase in the real burden of income tax. However, in the event of an economic downturn and unexpected deterioration in the public finances, we would postpone changes to income tax credits and bands, as we did in budget 2021. That is a direct quote from the programme for Government. My Department provides regular updates on indexation of the income tax system. In recent years information on the indexation of tax credits and bands has been included in the annual income tax strategy group paper. That should continue. I very much respect the integrity of that process but I know that is a process that is willing to listen to constructive suggestions from the political system, be that from me or from the Deputy. We should continue to build on that and further enhance the tax strategy group papers. I think it is a good piece of work. Information on the policy rationale for indexation and relevant considerations have been outlined in such papers previously. The most recent income tax strategy group paper set out information relating to indexing the income tax system, including the estimated cost to the Exchequer. These costs were used in publications taken from the Revenue Commissioners' ready reckoner publication. I would argue that the information requested by Deputy Nash in relation to indexation is already regularly addressed. I intend to request that the Department continue that practice as part of future reports. If I can make a final point then I will not need to come back in."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Yes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris There are advantages and disadvantages to indexation. Members will have heard predecessors, not just me, make this point too. There are the advantages the Deputy has outlined. There are also the potential disadvantages in that it diminishes some flexibility. A government should always have the flexibility to target resources to the areas of greatest need. I think we accept that. We were discussing earlier what to do when things change. Again, rigidity is something we need to be conscious of but also complexity. Should credits or bands be indexed to the consumer price index? Should they be indexed to wage growth? I know this is detail, but there is a complexity and a flexibility element. This year I would argue that we have done indexation plus a bit more than that. It is the general direction of travel."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach We are now suspending for 30 minutes."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an su\u00ed ar fionra\u00ed ar 11.31 a.m agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 12.02 p.m."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sitting suspended at 11.31 a.m. and resumed at 12.02 p.m."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Ghlac an Teachta Edward Timmins an Chathaoir."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Deputy Edward Timmins took the Chair."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Chathaoirleach Is amendment No. 3 being pressed?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ged Nash Yes."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 4"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Chathaoirleach Amendments Nos. 4 to 6, inclusive, in the name of Deputies Doherty and Farrell are related and will be discussed together."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I move amendment No. 4: In page 9, to delete lines 13 to 18 and substitute the following: \u201c(i) in paragraph (a), by the substitution of \u201c\u20ac20,000\u201d for \u201c\u20ac10,000\u201d, and (ii) in paragraph (b), by the substitution of \u201c\u20ac10,000\u201d for \u201c\u20ac5,000\u201d, and (b) in subsection (13)\u2014 (i) by the substitution of \u201c\u20ac2,000\u201d for \u201c\u20ac1,000\u201d, and (ii) by the substitution of \u201c\u20ac4,000\u201d for \u201c\u20ac2,000\u201d.\u201d. This amendment deals with the renter's tax credit and suggests increasing the credit from \u20ac1,000 to \u20ac2,000 per individual. I note that the Government is increasing it by \u20ac150. The Minister may be aware of the long campaign I had to wage to convince the Government to introduce the renter's tax credit. It was back in 2018 that I first brought forward an amendment to the Finance Bill during the time of the Minister's predecessor, Paschal Donohoe, and argued and voted for a renter's tax credit to be introduced. The Government voted against that at the time. We tried again in 2019 and 2020 and continued to use parliamentary time through Private Members' Business to raise this issue again in 2021. Finally, four years later, after persevering, the Government changed its tune, agreed with my initial assessment that a renter's tax credit made sense and introduced it. Unfortunately, the problem was the Government only did a half-baked job. The proposal I had from 2018 onwards was not just about introducing the renter's tax credit. Rather, it was about ensuring that we had a ban on rent increases at the same time. The reason Paschal Donohoe gave over and over again for not introducing the renter's tax credit was because he said it would be a transfer of wealth into the pockets of landlords. He was correct. Without freezing and banning rent increases, that is exactly what would happen and, unfortunately, that is what has happened. Two things need to happen in tandem. First, the renter's tax credit has to be at a level that is adequate to deal with the rip-off rents that are now being charged as a result of the Government's policy. Second, we need to see a ban on further rent hikes. The amendment before us does exactly that. It increases the rate from \u20ac1,000 to \u20ac2,000. What would be needed to go alongside that would be a ban on further rent increases for a period of time. I note the Minister's own policy is to increase the renter's tax credit. I sometimes laugh inside when I hear him talk about how great the renter's tax credit is and all the rest of it. I had to battle with his party for four years to convince it to do something and its members present it as something that was a great idea by Fine Gael. The reality is that if I was renting in this city from one of the funds that the Government ensures do not pay a penny in tax on any of the hundreds of million of euro in rental income they collect every year, and I am paying \u20ac1,800 for a room in an apartment, which is the current rent - indeed, many people are paying more - even under the Minister's proposals, which is to limit an existing tenant's increase to 2%, my rent will go up by over \u20ac430. The renter's tax credit of \u20ac150 is gone before they get it. If I am one of these people who have moved from Donegal up to Dublin recently to take up a job here, under the legislation that the Government passed earlier on, that fund could increase my rent by any amount - 20% if it wanted. There is no limit to how much it could increase my rent by. The renter's tax credit does not simply cut it, first of all in terms of the scale, given that the Government has allowed runaway rents to happen in this city and beyond. That is why it needs to increase the renter's tax credit from \u20ac1,000 up to \u20ac2,000. Second, and crucially, it needs to ban rent increases for a period until we get the proper supply into the market. It is not just about additional rental supply. The problem we have because of the Government's housing policy, which has utterly failed and caused serious consequences, is that people who should own their own home are in rental accommodation, people who should be in local authority housing are in rental accommodation and, obviously, renters who should be in rental accommodation are in rental accommodation. The rental sector is now trying to do so much because of the crisis that we have. What the Government is putting forward here in the Finance Bill simply does not cut it for renters. It is not going to meet the scale of the increases they are going to face as a result of Government policy. That is for existing tenants. God help new tenants, as the Government has unleased whatever the landlords want to charge them into the future. The Government has done that very deliberately, to the point where some of these big funds have talked about huge increases in their profits as a result of being able to revalue their rent in the future. We all know - the Minister knows, I know, and the finance committee knows - that there is a roll-over of tenants in this State, particularly in cities such as Dublin, because of work patterns and all the rest. On average, a tenant is staying in a tenancy for about three years. Therefore, these funds know fine well that they will be able to increase the rents once that tenant moves out and a new tenant moves in. I put it to the T\u00e1naiste that what Paschal Donohoe was saying at the time was right. A renter's tax credit on its own is about transferring money directly into the pockets of landlords. That is what the Government has been doing. It has been allowing the landlords to jack up the rents and it is not benefiting the tenant. If the T\u00e1naiste wants to benefit the tenant properly, he should ban the rent increases and bring the renter's tax credit to an adequate level, which is \u20ac2,000 per individual."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ged Nash Are these amendments grouped?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Amendments Nos. 4 to 6, inclusive, are grouped."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ged Nash The T\u00e1naiste has seen my amendment, which is requesting a report on the operation of the relief, which has been in for a short period now. There is a trend that we tend not to properly review the utility of these reliefs too often. The principle of the relief is something that we have always supported; that is clear. We are glad it is there in the context of the challenging situation those who are renting are experiencing at the moment. We all know what those challenges are. Based on the framing of my own amendment, is there information available in terms of the research done by the Department, or any other Department or agency for that matter, about the impact that the relief is actually having on rents themselves and the rates of rents being charged? We do know that it can often be the case that, when a relief is introduced, it can send a signal to the market to introduce or to see, at the very least, a rent increase that would be equivalent to the value of the relief. Is there any evidence to suggest that the relief is having an impact directly in terms of rising rents? It is known as well that a good number of those in the private rental market may not be paying enough tax to allow them to gain the relief in the first place. Do we have any data available in relation to that scenario? Would the Minister consider introducing a relief on a refundable basis for those who do not pay sufficient tax to allow them to enjoy access to the credit?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I thank the Deputies. I will make a couple of broad points and will then put some information on the record of the committee in terms of the specific amendments so people can tease through them and discuss them further, either now or on later Stages of the Bill. The first point I will make is a broader point in relation to housing. When Deputy Doherty talks about housing policy failing, we are now building more homes than the European Union average in this country. More homes are being built. In fact, I think there might be more homes being built in this country than pretty much every other European country per capita . Certainly, three times more new homes are being built in Ireland than there are in our nearest neighbour, the UK. While scars of the financial crash on the housing market have been deep and have had real pain for people, we are beginning to see supply being delivered at a rate well above the European average and well above what our nearest neighbours in the UK are managing to deliver as well. That is important to say. I think people are beginning to see that across the country. I reckon around 300 people every working day are now getting keys to a home. That is a vastly different place from where we were. I am not suggesting the housing crisis is not real or is not ongoing; it is. It is important also, however, when there are signs of progress, that we acknowledge them, plough on and try to do even more. When we are talking about the scale of increase in relation to the renter's tax credit, we should talk about the totality of it. While the increase is \u20ac150, obviously people get the full benefit of all of the credit each of the year. That is an important point. The point was made earlier about the real money that people actually get or the real lived example. It is an additional \u20ac150, but a person also gets the totality. When the Deputy referenced my former colleague, Paschal Donohoe, and the comments he made, he would have made them, as the Deputy knows well, in advance of the changes that this Government has brought in regarding protections for renters in this country. There have been a number of new rules. Again, we can debate and say they have gone too far or that they have not gone far enough. There are different views and perspectives, but the reality is they now exist. There are new rent rules and nationwide coverage in relation to rent pressure zones. That was not the case. In fact, when this Government was re-elected, albeit in a slightly different guise, I think many in the Opposition suggested that we were going to get rid of the rent pressure zones. We extended them nationwide. Deputy Doherty's own county was not covered by the rent pressure zones previously; it now is. We have had rent increase caps with annual rent increases remaining capped at 2% or the rate of inflation, CPI, whichever is lower, for tenancies starting before 1 March 2026. This is all a balance. We can have different political views on the balance and how to get it right, but we need to increase supply and try to provide protection for renters. When you get that balance wrong in any one direction, that causes real challenges too. I do not agree with the view and I do not believe that if you were to take more what I would describe as radical or drastic action above and beyond what we have done, that would provide breathing space for more supply. I genuinely believe it would distort new supply. That is a genuine concern we have in government. That was to respond to some of the points, but I will speak specifically to the grouped amendments. I will use my note on this to provide some factual information that may be of use to the committee in terms of costs and analysis. Amendment No. 4 from Deputies Doherty and Farrell proposes doubling the maximum amount of the rent tax credit for years of assessment 2027 and 2028. Amendment No. 5, in the name of Deputy Nash, is requesting the report on the rent tax credit and calling for the details he outlined in terms of the uptake, distributional analysis, consideration of whether the credits have an effect on rents and that idea of the potential cost of making the credit refundable, which I will return to. Amendment No. 6, in the name of Deputies Doherty and Farrell, seeks a report on the interaction between the rent tax credit and rent price increases. In relation to amendment No. 4, the budget announced a 15% increase in the rent tax credit for 2027-2028. This is consistent with the programme for Government commitment to progressively increase the credit over the lifetime of the Government. We have set out the cost of that in the tax policy changes document published on budget day. It is expected to have a full-year cost of around \u20ac45 million. The Exchequer cost for the credit in 2024, which is the latest year for which full data is available, when the maximum level of relief was \u20ac1,000 for a single-assessed person and \u20ac2,000 for a jointly assessed taxpayer unit was \u20ac363 million. The encouraging sign is this was a tax credit that had very low uptake at the start. In fact, we used to regularly get asked whether people were using it. We are now seeing this tax credit costing quite a lot of money, which, ironically, is a good thing because it means people are now claiming a credit that we want to give back to renters. The proposal in amendment No. 4, would, according to Revenue, have an additional full-year cost over the current cost of \u20ac205 million, or some \u20ac160 million after the proposed changes which we announced in the budget. This would bring the overall potential Exchequer cost of the rent tax credit to nearly \u20ac570 million. I know the Deputy knows that, but that is just the scale. It is a substantial increase. Again, it would also potentially benefit higher earners more, as to get the full benefit of the relief, a sufficient income tax must have to be paid too. Aside from the potential Exchequer costs, the proposal would be deemed regressive in tax terms. In relation to amendment No. 5, it should first be noted that the extent to which the taxpayer unit benefits from a tax credit through either the reduced tax liability and-or the receipt of a refund from overpayment of a liability, is, as Deputy Nash suggests, determined by their gross tax liability but also their use of other tax credits and reliefs. Taxpayers who claim the rent tax credit may not benefit from this credit if they have other reliefs, deductions or tax credits that already reduce their net tax liability to nil, which I think is the point the Deputy is getting to. As I have referenced, the most recent year for which full data is available is 2024. In that year, Revenue advised us that 379,020 taxpayer units claimed the credit and 335,030 taxpayer units benefited from it. These numbers include both PAYE and self-assessed taxpayer units. This gives rise to the Exchequer cost I have referenced of around \u20ac363 million. The credit has now seen an exceptionally strong uptake against initial projections, with almost 400,000 individuals claiming the tax credit for 2024. This is broadly as estimated by my Department at the time of the introduction of the credit. I would also point out that the Department published a review of the credit among the budget day documentation last year. It shows findings from the first year of the rent tax credit was in place to 2022 and tries to draw initial conclusions regarding its appropriateness and value for money through analysis of available data. The review considers the context and rationale for the tax credit including the current Irish rental market as well an assessment of the distributional impact of the tax credit. It also set out information about the rate of the rent tax credit received amounts. The review found that the most represented cohorts among the rent tax credit claimants are young adults between 21 and 40, residents in Dublin and single persons. Claimants with a gross income between \u20ac30,000 and \u20ac40,000 represent the largest cohort, which I think is 19%, equivalent to 60,000 taxpayer units. In relation to amendment No. 6 and the potential of the credit to increase rent, in the first instance, policy responsibility for the regulation of rent lies with the Department of housing as opposed to my Department but as I already referenced, the Residential Tenancies (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2026 provides for a national rent control system and significantly strengthens security of tenure for tenants. The new national rent control limits rent increases to inflation as measured by the CPI up to a maximum of 2%. The introduction of further rent controls does not address the underlying cause of the problem, which is insufficient supply. That is why we are putting all of our focus on delivering further supply, which we believe will moderate housing costs in both the purchase and rental sectors. The national residential property price index, RPPI, increased by 5.5% in the 12 months to July 2026. The index showed 12-month rental inflation at 4.2% in quarter 2 in 2025. The budget has increased the value of the rent tax credit by 15%. We have increased the value of the rent credit above the rate of rental inflation. To Deputy Nash's point, the matter of refundable tax credits was examined in 2002, which was quite a while ago, by the commission on taxation and again by the Department of Finance as part of the 2023 tax strategy group. The review identified a number of issues around refundable tax credits. Introducing such credits represents a fundamental change to the personal income tax system we have, including that direct supports are simpler and there are more effective ways of providing assistance to low-income households. If 400,000 individuals, single and jointly assessed combined, were to claim the relief on a refundable basis, the Exchequer cost would be around \u20ac460 million in respect of the year of assessment 2027. That is based on an assumption that every claimant receives the maximum rent relief. That was slightly long but I wanted to put that information on the record so that we would have it when teasing through the issues now and on Report Stage. For those reasons, I do not propose to accept the amendments."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell I am going to talk about Galway because it is what I know. I see the impact of the housing crisis and the cost-of-living crisis, which are inextricably linked. I have seen it worsen every single year since I was elected, unfortunately. I was a city councillor for five years before I came to the D\u00e1il. The concern that people have is immense. The reality is that average rents are \u20ac2,500 in Galway city and \u20ac2,650 in Galway county. It is really significant for people. The problem for many people is that if you get a notice to quit, for whatever reason, it is incredibly hard to find anywhere else to go. It is incredibly hard to save money for a deposit when you pay that kind of rent. It is impossible for most working people; that is the reality. This week, we had the fourth consecutive Locked Out of the Market report from the Simon Community. It showed zero affordable properties in Galway. That relates to the housing assistance payment, HAP, which is separate from what we are discussing today but is an indicator of housing and rents in Galway city and county and the implications. We have an opportunity in this Finance Bill to do more for renters. That is what our amendments try to do. There was a budget two years where renters were not mentioned once. I recall sitting in the Chamber listening to the speeches by both Ministers at the time. I understand Deputy Harris was not the Minister for Finance at the time but we had to listen to an hour and a half of speeches and renters were not mentioned once. They were completely and utterly forgotten. This time, it feels like they were forgotten. The changes are simply not significant enough to tackle the real crisis that those renting are facing. We have an opportunity in this Finance Bill to rectify that. For that reason, I ask the Minister to reconsider his position on our amendments and to look at assisting those renters who really are just trying to get by, just have a roof over their heads, live the life they would like and be able to save a bit on the side so if they want to move towards buying their own homes, they can do so. I ask the Minister to reconsider his position and accept the amendments."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I hear what Deputy Farrell has to say. I do not dispute the fact that one of the biggest pressures people face in their everyday costs is their housing cost, whether the cost of buying a home, paying a mortgage or renting a home. I was looking at the Residential Tenancies Board, RTB, data we have. I am not having a pedantic back and forth on this because I fully accept that rents are very high but I think the standardised average rent in new tenancies in Galway is \u20ac1,717 a month, according to the RTB's quarter 1 2026 rent index regional analysis. That is in new tenancies. In existing tenancies for Galway for quarter 1, I think the figure is \u20ac1,303.41. I am not disputing that these are large sums of money or that there is a difference between the city and the county. It is good that the RTB now produces all of this data. In the budget, there are always legitimate asks to do more and to go further. We have decided to increase the rent tax credit by 15%. We are increasing it at a time when, according to the residential property price index, we saw an increase of 5.5% in the 12 months to July 2026. The index showed a 12-month rental inflation of 4.2% in quarter 2 of 2025, so we are trying to increase it above that rate of inflation. The rent tax credit is now utilised a lot and had not been in the past. We are committed to it in our programme for Government. I am not sure whether Deputy Doherty is happy or not happy that we introduced it or if it was his idea, but we do listen. We decided to introduce it. We have now supported it consistently. The continuation of it is something we did in last year's budget. It was due to expire, if one recalls. We have continued it for a number of more years. This year, we took the decision to increase it by 15%."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty The Minister does this quite often. He gave us the inflation figures for rents, which was whatever number he put on the record - I think it was 4.2%. Then, he suggested that the Government had increased the renter's tax credit by 15%. He made the point that the Government wanted to make sure that the increase was above the rate of rent inflation, sometimes giving the impression that the Government is insulating people from rent increases, but he is talking about two completely different figures. Inflation of 4.2% on a rental bill of \u20ac28,000 plus in this city compared with a 15% increase on a credit worth \u20ac1,000 - it does not match up. This is the problem. The Minister is great at spin but the reality and substance of the matter are very different. I make the point that the Government's housing policy is failing. I say that because I do not know how the Government can justify that people in this city right now are paying \u20ac28,020 on average for a place to live per year before they pay for electricity, gas, heating their homes or any of other expenses. They are eye-watering figures. That is in itself an example of a housing policy that is failing. To put that pressure on people is simply unacceptable. The average price was \u20ac28,020, and that is based on last year. It has gone up since. In the past three years, rents in this city have increased by, on average, \u20ac4,000. This is the problem under this Government. We have runaway rents and there is no stopping them. The T\u00e1naiste will say the Government has rent pressure zones, but the rent pressure zones have been in place and still the rent for new tenancies has increased, not according to me but according to the RTB, by \u20ac4,000 in the past three years. The average new tenancy in this city cost \u20ac28,000 this time last year, and it is worse now. That is an example of failure in bright lights. I do not know how the T\u00e1naiste can justify that or the pressure it is putting on our public sector workers. I met them and spoke to them out on the pickets looking for the Government to deliver fair pay for them, something they have to demand again and again in taking to the picket lines. They make the point that the Government hands pay increases of \u20ac95,000 to the CEOs. Another CEO got another pay increase just last week. Not one of them will you ever see on the picket line - never - because they have the ear of the Government. If you are on the top rung, no problem - you always have that channel open. However, that nurse I was talking to and the teacher who was on the picket line told me about the pressure they are under, and said that it is costing them \u20ac1,800 per month to rent a room in this city before they pay a single other bill. That is failure. We have told the Government that it needs to ban rent increases. We told the Government that it needed to introduce the rent tax credit and, in fairness, it has done so. It now needs to increase it to an adequate level. Supply in itself is not the solution. It is absolutely part of the solution, but if you tell any of those who were on the picket line that the Government is supplying apartments for them, they will say that they are paying \u20ac28,000 and more. It is going to increase to \u20ac30,000, \u20ac32,000 or \u20ac35,000. It is going to continue to go up because the Government has no plan otherwise. Does the T\u00e1naiste know what the real kicker is in all this? Those companies - the funds that are charging these rents - are not paying a single cent in tax on their rental income. The people who have to fork out that \u20ac28,000 for those apartments owned by those funds, who will take to the picket line again if the Government does not cut a deal, will have to go out, demand, argue, advocate and take a stand for their interests, but this Finance Bill lets the funds off scot-free again, does it not? We will have an amendment later, and I bet anything the T\u00e1naiste and Fine Gael and Fianna F\u00e1il will do what they have always done: protect the funds. The T\u00e1naiste has an option here to do the right thing by renters, increase the rent tax credit to \u20ac2,000, ban rent increases and show that the Government really has the backs of ordinary workers. Alternatively, he can do what Fine Gael and this Government always do, which is to take the side of the funds. The Government will again let them away with not paying a penny in tax. The public do not know that when they hand that \u20ac1,800 or that huge rent every single month to an institutional investor, it does not pay a penny in tax on its rental income. If I and a few people here were to set up a company and rent out that room, the company would have to pay 25% corporation tax on the rental income. If I owned the apartment and rented it to the T\u00e1naiste, I would have to pay income tax at a rate of 40% in relation to that rental income. For the investors and vulture funds that come in, however, Fine Gael has cut a deal which means they pay no tax - not a penny, not a cent - on the rental income. This is eye-watering rental income that the Government punishes ordinary Irish workers with every single month, with not a penny in tax on that rental income. It is disgraceful, and if there was ever an example of which side this Government is on, it is exactly that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell We had this conversation during debate on the previous Finance Bill in relation to the rent tax credit. The T\u00e1naiste will be fully aware that we have been proposing a rent tax credit for many years, falling on the deaf ears of the Government, but one of the things we had always said was that it works only if you also have a ban on rent increases. Will the T\u00e1naiste outline how he thinks this works without doing the two? We had this conversation with the T\u00e1naiste last year, and it still beggars belief to me that the Government does not see sense on it. The T\u00e1naiste talks about an increase of 15%. We are talking about \u20ac150. I have shown him the figures as to what is going on in Galway and the fact that people cannot make ends meet. We are not coming from a base where people are getting by; we are coming from a base where people are drowning in terms of their housing costs and their rental costs. If you were to get a notice to quit or if you were out of a job for a few weeks or something, it would have a serious knock-on effect straight away on whether you could pay that rent and keep your family afloat in your rented accommodation. That is the reality of the situation. I am by no means overegging the extent of the rental and housing crisis in Galway. Just earlier today, I was saying to one of my colleagues that every single Monday people cry in my clinics because of the housing situation and the crisis they are under. We run out of the tissues we have on our table very regularly because people are under such pressure. If you do not have stability over your home, it impacts every other aspect of your life: your mental health, your physical health and your ability to deal with other stresses with your working situation or whatever else. All you need in this rental situation is one type of economic shock that will mean that you end up in emergency accommodation, on your friend's couch or with three generations in one home. This is the reality of the situation, and that is why it is so crucial to use this Finance Bill and the outworkings of this budget to help those who are at this very moment under that severe pressure. We are coming into the winter months and approaching Christmas. This is a very stressful economic time for people who are trying to make ends meet. What we need to say to them here is that we have their backs and that we will support them if they are renters. That is in these amendments. Again, I urge the T\u00e1naiste to rethink his position on this and to do what is of necessity for these families, whom we all meet and we all know are really struggling to pay their rents."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cian O'Callaghan The lived reality for a lot of renters - I meet people in this situation all the time, especially when a tenancy ends - is that they are in a very difficult situation as to where they will be able to live. Some are able to move back in with families. That is not always a possibility, however. Some have to emigrate. That is what happens. In their jobs and employment here and everything else, they simply have to emigrate because they cannot find somewhere affordable to live. Some are able to afford one of these high-rent new builds at \u20ac2,000-plus a month, but only for a short time before they dip into savings they have built up, maybe over years. It is not sustainable, but it is either that, emigrate or become homeless; that is the situation they are in. The situation is severe, especially when tenancies end. The lack of robust, strong rent regulation is a huge problem here. Amendments Nos. 5 and 6 are very reasonable. They simply require reports and analysis of evidence of the impact of the renter's credit on rents. The T\u00e1naiste and Minister for Finance might address that. What evidence or analysis has been done, and will he share that with us now? Does he not agree that doing more robust analysis of this would be valuable in seeing what effect the renter's tax credit has had and what improvements need to be made? Those are very reasonable requests in the amendments."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris There are a couple of things there. First, to Deputy O'Callaghan's point, while I do not propose to accept an amendment that puts the need for a report into primary legislation, the broader point of sharing data, seeing how we can get more existing information in my Department and working with the RTB is something I am very happy to consider further between now and Report Stage. Examining how policies work is always good. I have put on the record some of the work that has been done to date on who is getting the renter's tax credit, how much they are generally earning in gross income, what age profile they are and where in the country they are. Let me share that. I have said it on the record of the committee here before, but I will see if there is any more useful information I can bring on Report Stage. I will consider that issue further. Data is always good, and I do not have an issue with that - far from it. I want to come back to a couple of points that were made. I do not in any way dispute that there are people in very difficult housing situations in this country. I do not know how the Deputies think I get elected to this place. I did not just fall from the sky and drop in here. I am elected by ordinary workers in Wicklow who have been good enough to elect me every time I have asked them to. I get elected by listening to them, taking their concerns to this place and doing my best to make progress with colleagues in government, and on occasion, in opposition. It is not that the Opposition gets elected by the ordinary workers and that we just magically drop from the sky. That is not how this place works. By the way, we had an election in Deputy Farrell's constituency this year, where her party ran on its cost-of-living platform and told the people of Galway West this, that and the other about the Government. With the greatest of respect and humility, my party won that by-election and the Deputy's party did very badly because people did not buy into the Sinn F\u00e9in view of how to deal with the cost-of-living crisis. Deputy Farrell walked the promenade in Salthill, and I watched the videos of Deputy Doherty telling people how terrible we were and how terrible I was. We had a by-election, where people actually got to come out and vote. It is not that things are easy for them and it is not that some of the issues the Deputies have outlined are not real concerns - they are - but the people just do not buy into Sinn F\u00e9in's framing of this Government's approach to the issue. People I meet recognise the fact the rent tax credit being increased by a further \u20ac150 for an individual and a further \u20ac300 for a couple in 2027 makes a real difference in their lives. If I look at not my figures but the RTB's figures, and at the rents in each county for new and existing tenancies, the renter's tax credit in 2027 is paying for at least a month's rent for any couple. That helps. In the Deputy's own county of Donegal, where an existing tenancy is \u20ac872.44 per month and a new tenancy for quarter 1 of 2026 was \u20ac1,106.78, the sums \u20ac1,150 and \u20ac2,300 are helping people. People get the idea that governments cannot cushion everything and that there are limitations. They also do not want us to do things for short-term, sugar-rush political gain that risk their own children's futures with the fragility of the global economic situation. I console myself with the fact the electorate are a lot more reasonable, pragmatic and considered than some of the charges levelled here. Similarly, public sector pay was referenced. Let me be very clear, and I am conscious the talks are at a sensitive and important stage: the Government wants to pay public sector workers more money. We want work to pay for everybody, including public sector workers. We must be one of the few governments in the European Union looking to increase public sector pay, and proper order, rightly so. I really hope in the window available between now and a week from tomorrow that a resolution can be found here. I encourage everyone, including the Government side, and we will, to dig deep to find a solution. Industrial peace matters, and people being able to have a decent living matters too. That issue was raised, so I just wanted to respond. Our proposal and budget is as it is. We have put forward an increase in the renter's tax credit and are committed to increasing it further. I take the point colleagues have made regarding sharing more existing information. Anything we have we will share. If further information is required, I will consider how best to advance that. As the committee knows, we tend not to enshrine in primary legislation commitments to reports. I do not think that is required. We will have different views on rent and that is fine. However, we brought forward legislation that brings in significant rental protections - Deputy Doherty may shake his head but I think it does - and it has been recognised by many as doing so, including the UCD school of social policy. It is a very significant level of national protection, but we have to balance that with supply. We need to have places and stock to rent. We need to have people willing to rent their houses. That is also important. They also need to have a viable proposition. This is all about balance. Again, real people I meet out there recognise that a rent tax credit of \u20ac1,150 for a single person and \u20ac2,300 for a couple helps and is not gone before you have got it. It is ahead of inflation and makes a real difference for people. It should be acknowledged when you take that plus the income tax, childcare and a variety of other supports. It needs to be seen in the round."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Colm Burke An impression was being given that nothing is being done on housing. There is \u20ac9.4 billion in real terms of taxpayers' money - not Government money - provided for in budget 2027. That is going into the Housing Finance Agency, the Land Development Agency, Uisce \u00c9ireann and social housing. It is \u20ac9.4 billion of taxpayers' money. I too have people coming into me every week who have housing difficulties. There is no question or doubt about it; there are many people in emergency accommodation for various reasons. However, we have also had to deal with an issue where many landlords have got out of the market because they no longer want to provide housing. They are finding it difficult. Many would have bought those houses back in the late nineties and early 2000s and have now got that much older that they no longer want to hold on to them. However, I have also come across landlords who have had a number of properties and decided to get out of the business completely. That is one problem that has put the pressure on, but all those houses have come back into use. Those that were sold have come back into use, whether they were sold to other investors or they were sold to first-time purchasers. In real terms, those houses have not been taken off the market, but they may very well have been taken out of the rental market. There are challenges for people who are renting; there is no question about it. The amount of money people are paying in rent is substantial, but we have to balance that against the amount of money we are putting into housing, which is \u20ac9.4 billion for the coming year. That is a substantial sum from taxpayers being invested wisely so that we can produce more housing. To take the example of my own city of Cork, Cork City Council has a very progressive attitude as regards providing housing. It has over 3,000 residential units under construction, which is very progressive, and these are very big projects. Three projects alone will deliver 1,150 individual housing units, which is good. The other issue that takes pressure off the rental market is the fact we have built a substantial amount of student accommodation over the last ten or 15 years. There was another announcement in the last few days of additional money going into over 3,000 student places. The area I represented on Cork City Council was around UCC and MTU, and there was always a huge problem when any property came up for sale. They were being bought up by investors or by families when they wanted their children to go to college. That has all changed. The purchase of those private houses has stopped because of the development of student accommodation. That is an important part of housing. We need to make sure we can build an adequate amount of student accommodation near our third level facilities so that we are then taking the demand off the private sector, where people who want to buy houses privately and live there are not prevented from doing so by people who are investing. It is important that the figure of \u20ac9.4 billion on housing is also referred to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I agree with Deputy Burke's point about student accommodation. It was one of the big demands when I joined thousands of students on the streets outside Leinster House a couple of weeks ago. There was frustration at the Government not developing student accommodation at the level and scale at which it needs to be developed. I agree the point is that the private rental sector ends up having to accommodate that and many other pressures. I want to go back to housing. The Minister keeps on doing this so, for a start, I will rebut it. He keeps on saying, \"I am bigger than you are\" or whatever. I refer to the by-election in Galway. Could I remind the Minister to have a wee bit of humbleness? He fought the last general election two years ago this month. Sinn F\u00e9in got more seats than his party. In the last election we got more seats than Fine Gael as well. When he talks about the electorate endorsing his party as opposed to our party, he should remember that Fine Gael is a smaller party than Sinn F\u00e9in in terms of seats in both elections. I will leave it at that. I have never raised that point because I think it is a stupid point but the Minister keeps on talking about one by-election and ignoring everything else. In fairness, the Minister has raised it with me in the D\u00e1il numerous times. I will not even go into his comments in relation to that election campaign, but I will just leave it at that. I just want to remind him in case the public think Fine Gael is the larger party in terms of the seats in either the last general election or the previous one. It is not, so the Minister cannot then claim that the public endorsed his party's analysis and rejected our analysis."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris They did in Galway West."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I will accept that. Will the Minister accept that the public rejected Fine Gael's analysis in favour of our analysis in both of the last elections in terms of seat outcomes?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris No."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty This is the problem."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Because Sinn F\u00e9in lost 5.5% of its vote and it was the worst performing Opposition party, and Deputy Doherty is the longest serving Opposition spokesperson on finance."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty This is the problem. I get it. I know the Minister's party was at him, and it is still at him because he is not able to deliver the goods in relation to this. I understand that. The comments he made in Kanturk were absolutely appalling. He had a dismal campaign. I understand all of that, but he should not give the impression that somehow Fine Gael is bigger than Sinn F\u00e9in in the D\u00e1il; it is not. That is the case in terms of the last two elections. They are just the facts. Now I want to move on to more substantive facts."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Erin McGreehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Erin McGreehan I want to speak to the amendment. Fianna F\u00e1il is bigger than everyone-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Deputy McGreehan is correct."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Erin McGreehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Erin McGreehan -----if it is going that silly, rather than speaking to the amendments."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty The Deputy is very welcome to the committee."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Erin McGreehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Erin McGreehan I thank Deputy Doherty."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I look forward to her speaking on my amendment."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris She does not need to be welcomed by Deputy Doherty."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I know. I am just saying that she is welcome to the committee. I am looking forward to hearing her speak on my amendment. Let me just make the point. This is the fact that I want to deal with."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Erin McGreehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Erin McGreehan Deputy Doherty is very gracious."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty The Minister keeps on saying that the rental tax credit is ahead of inflation. We just need to deal with the facts here as well. He also put on the record of this committee that rent inflation is 4.2%. Is it not correct that is partial information?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I do not want to interrupt Deputy Doherty's flow but I said that the rental inflation for 12 months was 4.2% in quarter 2 of 2025 and 5.5% in the 12 months to July 2026."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty That is only partial information. That is only for existing tenancies."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Yes, I think Deputy Doherty is right."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty It is a fact, but does the Minister accept that the average tenancy rolls over every three and a half years?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Yes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty What is the inflation for new tenancies?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I am reading a note to get the accurate information. According to the RTB, annual rental inflation was 9.1%-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty It was 9.1%."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris -----which is below 15%."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Therefore, what did the average rent increase by last year for new tenancies?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I do not have that figure."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I will tell the Minister. It was \u20ac1,840. The rent tax credit has gone up by \u20ac150. That does not match up for a start. Even if the Minister argued, which he cannot, that it is the whole \u20ac1,150, it is still not enough. Rent is going up at runaway speeds. I do not know if the Minister does not understand this or if he genuinely believes that the rent tax credit is ahead of inflation, but in terms of what people have to pay, the rent tax credit is a fraction of that. That is why I have argued in the amendment I have brought forward that the Minister must increase the rent tax credit to \u20ac2,000 and ban rent increases to give renters a break. That is the point I am making."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell I am sorry but the Minister did not answer my question. To be very clear, I do not understand the weird responses he gave me when I asked him questions. It is fine if he cannot answer them - he can just say that. I do not understand how we can move from a factual conversation about a Finance Bill. Unfortunately, we do not have the Minister here for that long. That was his decision. I would prefer if he spoke to the point. I find the shift in conversation unusual for a debate on a Finance Bill. My question to the Minister was in relation to a ban on rent increases. How does the Minister square the circle in relation to the rent tax credit? I told him that we had this conversation last year with the previous Minister. I am now asking the Minister his view in relation to this. We have been arguing and saying that there needs to be a renter's tax credit for a long time. When we raised this continuously, the Government told us we could not do it because it would increase rents. What is the Minister's view in relation to this? These are policy decisions on which it is important to have discussions. That is why I asked the Minister for his view because prior to this we had the conversation with a different Minister for Finance. That was my question. It is important that in the Finance Bill, which is the largest Bill coming through this committee, that we have conversations on policy. That is all I asked."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cian O'Callaghan I want to speak specifically on amendment No. 5 from Deputy Nash. The amendment calls for a number of things in that report. Those calls are well thought-out, good and we support them. I appreciate that the Minister said he shared some data with us earlier and if there is more data he would share it with us. That is fine. It is appreciated but it somewhat misses the point. I was pulling out one aspect of Deputy Nash's amendment - looking for a report on how the evidence on the renter's tax credit feeds into rents. That particular bit of analysis is really important because we need to know the impact a measure that has been brought in is having on rents. That is a very important analysis that should be done so we can see the impact of the rent tax credit, what effects it is having and how advantageous it is for renters. It is great that other data is being shared, but I ask in particular that the analysis of it needs to be done from a policy point of view, and from the point of view of renters and the overall taxpayer wanting to get value out of these measures."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris This is a political Chamber and when political charges are made by the Opposition they should not expect me to just sit here, roll over and let them tickle my belly. I am perfectly entitled to rebut points that are made and I am perfectly entitled to answer questions as I wish, without Deputy Farrell's permission. I am perfectly entitled to suggest the view she put forward as to how people in Galway see the performance of this Government is not the experience I encountered when I went to Galway and canvassed there. Deputy Farrell can agree or disagree with me but I am perfectly entitled to do that. The second point I would make is that I did answer the question. The Deputy, as people can be, was unavoidably detained and was late so she did not hear me answering the question in relation to the amendment and my view on rent caps. My view is very clear that if we go further than we went in the Residential Tenancies (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act it would have the impact of reducing supply. We are trying to get the balance right here. I do not accept the view that the rent tax credit is of no use to people. I just do not accept that because if it is of no use to people, why are they all claiming it? This is not something that just drops into people's accounts. This is something that people are logging on and claiming because in the real world, it is a hell of a lot of use to people. The people that I and the Deputy represent understand the benefit of \u20ac1,150 or \u20ac2,300. The Deputy can argue, as she does, that it should be higher but let us not suggest there is no benefit to it without a rent cap. The Deputy could argue - I would disagree with her - that there would be more benefit to it with a rent cap. I do not agree but she could argue that. However, she should not say there is no benefit to it because if there is no benefit to it, why are hundreds of thousands of people claiming it? That simply does not make sense. Why are we spending the \u20ac363 million on it that people are seeking through the Revenue Commissioners? We have to look at the expenditure of public money in the round. We have decided to increase the rent tax credit this year and I hope it is something we can build on again in the future. We are very committed to it as the Government. I will reflect on the point made by Deputies Nash and Cian O'Callaghan between now and Report Stage. They know, because they are both at this a long time, that governments never adopt the approach of enshrining in primary legislation that they will produce a report. For those watching in, that is generally not the way it works. That is not why they put down the amendment and it is not why we rejected it but the point they are making about specific data and information that they think we, as a system more broadly, or just my Department, should seek to provide is something I am happy to consider. There was a rent tax credit review in 2025, based on the first year of data from 2022. The Deputies have raised specific issues of where they think there is a dearth of data. I will examine this and consider it further between now and Report Stage and will be happy to engage further on it then."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell Unfortunately, this point has to be made. I actually do not want to make it because I want to make this about the Finance Bill but when I spoke, and the Minister can look back at the record, I spoke about my experiences. I also said that the Minister and everybody else in this room will have had similar experiences. What I am trying to do is have a debate on the policies here and I do not think that changing the tone of that is a positive. That is all I am saying. I take it that the Minister does not think we should ban rent increases for the reasons he has outlined. I fundamentally disagree because people are really struggling as a result, as I said in my contribution, of one economic shock. It can be any type of shock - a health shock, a job shock or whatever else it may be. This is the Finance Bill. We are trying to get through it and it is important that we get to deal with and speak on our policy positions. I am of the belief that a Finance Bill should be able to be amended. It should not be a situation where we just come in, assume that the Government will reject all Opposition amendments and support all of its own amendments, including technical ones. Committees do extremely important work and we should be utilising this time to discuss things, make decisions and change our view on things. That is a point that is incredibly important to make."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 4 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"NEW SECTIONS"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ged Nash I move amendment No. 5: In page 9, between lines 19 and 20, to insert the following: \u201cReport on rent tax credit 5. The Minister for Finance shall, within six months of the passing of this Act, prepare and lay before D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann a report on the relief provided for by section 473B of the Principal Act, which shall set out, for each year of assessment for which that relief has been available\u2014 (a) the number of individuals who claimed the relief and the cost of the relief, (b) an estimate, in so far as it can be made, of the number of individuals entitled to the relief who did not claim it, (c) the distribution of the relief by income decile, (d) any evidence of the extent to which the relief has been reflected in the rents charged to individuals entitled to it, and (e) the cost of making the relief available on a refundable basis to individuals whose liability to income tax is less than the amount of the relief.\u201d."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I move amendment No. 6: In page 9, between lines 19 and 20, to insert the following: \u201cReport on rent tax credit 5. The Minister shall, within one month of the passing of this Act, prepare and lay before D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann a report on the rent tax credit operating in the absence of a cap on rents, making a direct comparison between the amount of the credit and rent increases across the State for each year that the credit has been in operation.\u201d."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 5 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"NEW SECTION"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I move amendment No. 7: In page 9, between lines 27 and 28, to insert the following: \u201cReport on conditionality of health insurance related tax expenditure 6. The Minister shall, within three months of the passing of this Act, prepare and lay before D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann a report on the potential to apply conditionality to health insurance related tax expenditure to ensure greater levels of transparency of pricing and profits in the health insurance sector and related affordability criteria.\u201d. The purpose of this amendment is to seek a report. As the Minister mentioned earlier, this is the mechanism by which we bring forward amendments to raise issues and, we hope, have them implemented or acted upon or, in some cases, to have the Finance Bill altered. Because of the restrictions on the Opposition, a report is sometimes the only way we can do this. This is a genuine request for a report. We need to look at the expenditure on health insurance that we are supporting through taxes. It is substantial. It cost \u20ac450 million according to the latest data, which are for 2023. We do not know whether that has increased or decreased. Some people are not continuing with their health insurance policies, but the population is growing. We will see what the updated figures are. As stated, we know that the cost was \u20ac450 million in 2023. The cost of health insurance has increased significantly in recent years. It has increased by 70% on pre-Covid levels and by 11% in the past year. This affects 2.5 million people in the State. Many are struggling to keep their cover, and some are downgrading their level of coverage. Many people do not want to have health insurance but feel they have to have it because they feel the public system does not meet their needs. They are worried about waiting lists or getting to see their doctor or consultant. Health insurance is subsidised by the taxpayer to the tune of nearly \u20ac500 million annually. People are forking out \u20ac2,000 on average for a health insurance policy. For a family, that can increase because there are more people involved , including children. We play a major role when it comes to health insurance because we subsidise it to a degree. Can we use the leverage we have in that regard to look at applying conditionality in the context of what the private sector is offering to the public? The report would examine options as to whether there would be potential to apply conditionality to health-insurance-related tax expenditure to ensure greater transparency on pricing and profits in the health insurance sector and related affordability criteria. We have leverage here. The amount of money being forked out is not small. I would like this to be considered in the next while. It may be considered in the tax papers in the summer. It warrants consideration given the costs associated with it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I thank Deputies Doherty and Farrell for tabling this amendment. I accept the purpose behind what they are trying to do here. I have a number of potential points to challenge or clarify. The amendment seeks a report on the potential to apply conditionality to tax relief for private health insurance in order to improve transparency on pricing and profits while taking account of affordability criteria. Section 470 of the Taxes Consolidation Act provides for tax relief for private health insurance on payments made to authorised insurers under relevant contracts for medical and dental insurance. The relief is granted at the standard rate of income tax, currently 20%, on the amount of the premium subject to specified ceilings. It is provided at source and applies as a discount on all health insurance premiums. While the relief is provided at source, taxpayers are the beneficiaries. Applying conditionality to a personal tax relief that would be based on the actions of a private company could impact the income tax relief available to the individual taxpayer through no fault of their own. I do not think that would be an appropriate use of the income tax system, and I do not think the Deputy does either. There is substantive legislative and regulatory oversight of the health insurance industry. There is a legal framework governing the private health insurance market, which the Minister for Health is responsible for. The market has to operate on the principles of community rating, open enrolment, lifetime cover and minimum benefits. These protections are designed to support fairness and keep health insurance accessible to consumers. The Health Insurance Authority is the statutory regulator of the private health insurance market in Ireland. It has to ensure compliance with the things to which I refer, including the community rating, open enrolment, minimum benefits and lifetime cover, which are meant to keep the market accessible, sustainable and fair for consumers. The Central Bank is responsible for regulating health insurance undertakings as financial service providers under the consumer protection framework, including the consumer protection code. That includes overseeing how insurers conduct their business with consumers, the provision of information, disclosure requirements and the fair treatment of customers. The Competition and Consumer Protection Commission is the statutory body responsible for promoting compliance with and enforcing competition and consumer protection law in Ireland. I make that point to show that there are a number of strands here, and different parts of the system have responsibilities. The role of the Department of Finance and the Revenue Commissioners is limited to the capped tax relief. We believe that the relief is appropriately calibrated to ensure continuing support via the tax system while also trying to reduce Exchequer exposure. The Deputy has raised a broader point that I do not want to dismiss out of hand. I do not propose to accept the amendment, but the Deputy is asking whether there is work that should be considered more broadly across the system. I am happy to converse on that with the Minister for Health and others. I would not be in a position to support the amendment as drafted."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Colm Burke I will come in briefly on the area of health insurance. The Government has taken the decision to move private healthcare out of the public sector, so there is going to be a drop in income from the insurance companies for the public health system. This will mean that more money will have to be provided from central government for the public health system. It is right that this change is coming but we sometimes lose the argument regarding the private health sector. It does provide a service to the State. For instance, if someone is in a public hospital for four weeks, the average cost of that stay is around \u20ac8,000 per week so, for four weeks, that is \u20ac32,000. If they were in a private hospital for that same period, the money would either come from that person privately or from the insurance policy they have paid into, so there is technically a saving for the taxpayer in real terms when they go into private hospitals. They pay for it themselves. Well over 40% of the population have private health insurance. They are prepared to make sure they have that safety valve. This means that we can focus on providing the best standard of care in our public system because there is not the same pressure with numbers. It is important that we get a balance as regards the part private health insurance plays within the health service and the contribution it makes. The other thing is that it is a voluntary decision for individuals to take out private health insurance. It is important that we make sure there is balance in any debate on this issue."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 6"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question proposed: \"That section 6 stand part of the Bill.\""},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Chathaoirleach Is it agreed that section 6 stand part of the Bill?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty We are on section 5."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Chathaoirleach We are on section 6."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty We are on section 5, are we not?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Chathaoirleach Does Deputy Doherty want to speak to section 5?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I do. I will be very brief. This section deals with tax relief for health expenses. It has to do with the policy change in respect of pharmacies. Is there a cost associated with this tax measure? This was not announced on budget day so the book does not provide the cost associated with this measure."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I am told there is no new cost. It would have been paid through the doctor. It is just being paid through the pharmacist now."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty There is no new cost at all. That is fine. That is what I expected. That is okay. I just wanted to clarify that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Chathaoirleach To clarify that section 5 stands part of the Bill, I did actually say that earlier. Is that agreed? Agreed."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty On section 6-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Chathaoirleach Does the Deputy wish to speak on section 6?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Yes, this section deals with third level fees."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Chathaoirleach We just did section 6. The Deputy's amendment was on the health-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell No, we are on section 6 now. We did section 5."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Chathaoirleach We did the amendment on section 6."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell There is no amendment on section 6."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty There should be an amendment on section 5."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I think there is a typo. There is an error in the document."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty It is probably just coming after section 6."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Chathaoirleach Does the Deputy want to speak to section 6?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I do. Is that okay? Section 6 deals with third level fees. It reduces the disregard in line with the fact that student fees are coming down to a level of \u20ac2,350. This is an issue. The Government has promised to abolish these fees. They are higher now than when the T\u00e1naiste promised to abolish them two years ago. I think he would accept that as fact. In real life, people are paying higher fees than they were when he promised to abolish them. At this rate, if the Government continues on this trajectory, \u20ac150 a year, you would need to be two years of age now to fully benefit from the abolition of fees. What is wrong? Did the T\u00e1naiste not get his way? Is there pushback? Does he no longer see this as a priority? How does he square the fact that fees are higher now than when he made that commitment two years ago? An adjustment of this kind was not made in last year's Finance Bill. Was there a reason for that? Does the T\u00e1naiste have a target date for when he will actually live up to the commitment he made to abolish fees? Will we see a reduction in the qualifying tuition fees disregard alongside any moves in that regard?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell The issue of student fees and ability to access third level education is, as the Minister is aware, an extremely emotive issue for our young people. The reason it is an emotive issue is that there are barriers preventing people accessing third level education. I feel strongly that the ability to access third level courses should not be based on where you live. Everybody should be able to access those courses. There are the fees and then, as we were just discussing, there are the extremely high rents and the high cost of living. I know the Minister was the first Minister for further and higher education. He said during the last general election campaign that he was seeking to abolish student fees. Students would have welcomed hearing that. Of course, that impacts on how people vote. As I have said to the Minister before, promises and being straight with people matter. We need to be honest with people about what is going to be delivered. One of the first questions I received when the Minister was on his feet on budget day was from a neighbour of mine who asked what was being done in relation to student fees because she was struggling to pay the fees of her daughter, who is studying in Galway. It will have come as a huge disappointment to people that the type of action that they felt was going to come from the Minister and the Government was not going to happen. How did the Minister come to the \u20ac150 mark? It seems very low in light of what had been promised and what people expected. When in the lifetime of this Government will student contribution fees be fully abolished?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I have a couple of points to make here. The first is that a very significant proportion of students in third level education pay no fees as a result of the SUSI grant system. I used to know the percentage off the top of my head when I was Minister for further and higher education. I am sure I can get it for the committee. That number will increase further and the SUSI grants were also increased further in the budget. As the result of a targeted approach, those most in need do not pay fees in Ireland. On top of that, many people not only do not pay fees, but also get a maintenance grant. I am just saying that for the benefit of people looking in. In fact, I encourage people to continue to apply for the SUSI grant because my sense when I was the Minister for further and higher education was that there were more people who were eligible for the grant than applied for it. That is something members probably all experience in our constituencies. To encourage people, there is a relatively high level of income disregard before they pay any level of fees. That is the first point I want to make. I do not wish to be too political or partisan, but my position on this is outlined in my party's manifesto. I want to see the abolition of third level fees. I know across the Government we want to see progress on this issue and the programme for Government says very clearly that we will continue to reduce the student contribution fee over the lifetime of the Government in a financially sustainable manner. That is what the programme for Government says. The pace at which we do it will always be a matter for individual budgets. Members, students and parents will judge us as to where we get to in relation to that. I accept that. However, there are three more budgets in the lifetime of this Government. Deputy Doherty makes a point that is not entirely unfair, and he can argue it is a factually correct point because it is. There was a moment in time when student fees were \u20ac2,000. That was always temporary. We all knew that. Again, one can argue the merits or demerits, but all of those temporary cost-of-living measures, Covid-era measures and inflationary measures were unwound. One of the few that has continued to be driven downwards is the student contribution fee. The Minister, Deputy Lawless, brought forward a range of proposals this year, including the \u20ac150 reduction. Deputy Doherty should not consider the \u20ac150 reduction this year to be the template or that there must be two applicants. We look at the amount for reduction in each budget. Turning back to section 6 of the Finance Bill, what we are doing here was a proposal I received from the Minister, Deputy Lawless. I had a pre-budget meeting with him and received correspondence from him as well. He asked that I amend section 473A of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997 to align the tax relief disregard for third level fees with the student contribution charge to help reduce the financial burden on families and individuals who are paying qualifying third-level tuition, in particular where tuition fees are paid for more than one student or child at the same time, because I accept there is a cost to going to college for anybody. The cost on a family is obviously more significant, and biology and chronology can mean a family may well end up having two children in college at the same time. That cost can be quite significant. The relief is also available in respect of qualifying postgraduate courses. Each claim for third level fees is subject to a single disregard amount, presently \u20ac3,000 for full-time students and \u20ac1,500 for part-time students. Taxpayers may claim income tax relief at 20% on eligible fees paid in respect of a second and subsequent student where the cumulative fees paid exceed the relevant disregard amount for the year of claim. From the 2026 year of assessment onwards, the disregard amount will be reduced by \u20ac650 or \u20ac325 to align with the new student contribution fee rate of \u20ac2,350 or \u20ac1,175 for full-time or part-time students, respectively. This change will apply to tuition fees paid for an approved course commencing in the 2026-27 academic year with such claims for tax relief being made in 2027 via a 2026 income tax return. To be honest with the committee, I would have liked to have made it nearly automatic in the Finance Bill that this is something that happens if the fees go down. I have not been able to get that done in time for this year's Finance Bill and I need to seek further legal advice from officials on that. The policy approach here is that as the fees come down, the change should be made to ensure that the policy intent in relation to the Taxes Consolidation Act measures remains in place."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty To clarify, is the Minister reneging on his commitment to abolish student fees during the lifetime of this Government? Is it clear that there is no commitment from the Minister to do that?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris That is not clear at all."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Is there a commitment to abolish student fees during the lifetime of this Government?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris It is my policy intent and the policy intent remains as I outlined in my party's manifesto. The programme for Government says that we will continue to reduce student contributions. Deputy Doherty can take this line with any issue, such as the rent tax credit or income tax, but the reality is that we will be judged at the end of the lifetime of this Government on where we get to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty That is 100%."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris My view in relation to student contribution fees remains the same. I would like to see them abolished. We want to make incremental progress in a sustainable and affordable way and the Minister, Deputy Lawless, brought forward a proposal at the time of the budget to make progress on that. We would all like to make further progress."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Does Deputy Harris accept it would take 16 years to abolish student fees at the rate of progress he has outlined in this budget?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Clearly. Does Deputy Doherty accept I said about two minutes ago that he should not read into the level of this year's reduction as the template we wish to repeat for every other year? I am not suggesting-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Should we not read into the fact that student fees are higher than when the Minister made the promise? Should we just ignore that as well? How much more does he want us to ignore? Should we just ignore that he made the commitment to the electorate as well, and that he made commitments to students across the State that if he got elected, he would abolish student fees? Does he want us to ignore everything and all his commitments?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris No, the Deputy should not ignore any of those things. He should also show that where his party is in government in Northern Ireland, fees for students are a hell of a lot higher than they are here. He should make that a big issue he intends to make progress on because his party prioritised other issues when it destroyed the Northern Ireland Executive and did not prioritise that. Students in Northern Ireland now pay significantly more than students in this part of the island. I am not going to have this situation. On the one level, Deputy Doherty wants to talk about the Finance Bill, and I am not to say a political word or everyone will get upset but then, on another level, he tries to bring things back to elections and manifestos. If he wants to judge me on my record, I intend to judge him on his too. That is how the cut and thrust of politics works. Students in this jurisdiction pay lower college fees than they do in the jurisdiction where the First Minister of Northern Ireland is from Sinn F\u00e9in. Sinn F\u00e9in can blame Britain, because it blames Britain for everything, or its politicians could actually face up to the responsibilities of office and could have made this a priority. Deputy Doherty's party chose not to. I want to work to reduce fees right across this island. I hope Sinn F\u00e9in will work with us in relation to that. I want to work to make sure grants work right across this island for students who move across the island. My view in relation to third level fees is very clear. Every year I was Minister for further and higher education third level fees fell. When I was Taoiseach, third level fees fell and this year third level fees have fallen. We will continue to reduce third level fees. The Government is unified in its view on this. The programme for Government is clear, so Deputy Doherty should not misrepresent it. I am saying very clearly that students will do exactly what other members of the electorate will do. At the end of the lifetime of this Government, they will look at what parties said during the election and what they did when they were in government. I am happy to be judged on that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I want to make two points. First, Deputy Harris is the Minister for Finance and the T\u00e1naiste, and student fees are higher today than when he made the commitment to abolish them. That is just a fact. We all agree on that. The Minister agrees on that and I agree on that. That is just a fact. Second, there are elections in the North in May. The Minister should consider contesting those elections and putting his ideas to the public. His party could stand in any constituency; West Tyrone, South Down, Belfast North or wherever he wants. There are 18 constituencies. He should think about contesting them and actually understanding them. I think Deputy Harris does understand, as Minister for Finance, the issues in relation to the budget in the North because I do believe he is involved in those discussions and that he understands the real challenge in relation to the block grant that comes from Westminster to the North. He does understand that there are no tax-raising powers in the North. He does understand that the North is very much determined by what Westminster does. Fair enough, the Minister is also a political leader so he will, therefore, make political jibes even though the reality and facts are different, and behind closed doors he will take a different approach because he knows this, like everybody else does. I genuinely believe it is his intention that he wants to see good public services on the island, regardless of where they are, and he knows that is dependent on Westminster. He knows the North does not have the ability to do anything we are doing in this Bill. There are 228 pages in this Bill. I do not think there is one measure among them that the North could do because it does not have the fiscal autonomy or fiscal powers. Deputy Harris knows that and I know that, so he should stop playing these games. I genuinely appeal to the Minister that his party considers standing in the North and putting its ideas to the electorate there. I think that is something that will happen in time. I encourage him in advance of his party's Ard-Fheis and look forward to seeing its report in relation to the roadmap, which is really good and progressive. He should take that next step. We should not, and the Minister for Finance should not, try to suggest that there is some way to raise revenue in the North. He cannot. There is a very limited way it can be done. There are water charges. I know Fine Gael and the Labour Party tried that here in the past. We are not doing that in the North. There are very few other ways to raise revenue. We do not have fiscal independence, despite the fact a report was done many years ago to try to get those powers, and the finance minister in the North is looking to progress that matter. I will leave that stuff there. My genuine question that I want clarification on is whether there is now no commitment from the Government to abolish third level fees. Is the only commitment to continue to reduce them? I asked at the start whether the Minister just lost that battle because \u20ac150 in the context of fees being higher than when the commitment was made is pitiful. Did the Minister not prioritise it in the discussions? Is the-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I do not want to interrupt the Deputy. I want to wait until he is finished-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Carry on. I am finished."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris When I meet Sinn F\u00e9in's party leader on the North she is not quite as patronising to me in relation to the situation. And when Mary Lou and Michelle O'Neill come to us and seek our assistance on matters in the North they are not quite as patronising either. I have made the point, and I would make the point and am interested in the answer, as to when was the last time the Sinn F\u00e9in party, through the First Minister's office, raised the reduction of the cost of education with the British Government in the negotiations. I would be interested to hear why this was not included when Sinn F\u00e9in outlined the list of priorities to re-establish the Executive. As people know - the Deputy would know because he is a very senior figure in his party - it did make other areas a priority and it did not prioritise this. That is fine but the Deputy should do not suggest or tell me that I should be contesting it. I thank him for inviting me to contest elections in Northern Ireland but he is telling me I should contest the elections in Northern Ireland and then telling me that if we get elected we cannot do anything for the people in relation to the cost of education. I understand how the North works. I genuinely want to work with all parties on this island to have a unified island and good public services for all of our people. The Deputy should please not misrepresent what I am saying. Nowhere in the Fine Gael manifesto did it suggest the date by which third level fees would be abolished. It said we wanted to abolish them over the lifetime of the Government and that is still what I want to do. We are trying to make progress, together with coalition colleagues, to reduce the cost of education each year. People will judge us at the end of our term of office."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Colm Burke Briefly, in relation to education and higher education, it is important to acknowledge that governments over the past ten years in particular have put huge money into higher education. We now have a situation whereby 69% of those aged 25 to 34 have a third-level qualification. More and more young people are looking at all of the options in relation to third level education and there are a huge number of choices, given the commitment and the investment that has been made in third level education right across the country. Huge investment has gone into Munster Technological University, for example, and likewise in UCC. Yes, maybe we should be trying to do more but we have to balance what we can deliver and look at the end results. The end results and the evidence are there, with 69% of those between the ages of 25 and 34 having a third level qualification. It shows that the investment is paying dividends in the way it has been managed."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 7"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question proposed: \"That section 7 stand part of the Bill.\""},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty On the childcare section here, the cost associated with this measure is \u20ac2 million. Obviously the Department has done some analysis in arriving at that cost. How much of that is likely to arise from existing childminders increasing their prices or expanding the number of children they mind? How much is expected to come from additional childminders entering the sector? What are the assumptions that underpin this cost? Similarly, how much of the benefit will go to childminders who are already minding children just above the current threshold who will now qualify for the relief? Basically, if you go above a certain threshold, you lose everything. What are the assumptions in relation to that? The Minister has increased the childcare service relief threshold by \u20ac5,000. I understand the intention behind it is to encourage the provision of childcare services, while also removing the cap on the number of children they can care for at that point in time. I think it is three at the minute. There will be no cap applied but as they obviously have to be registered and will have to comply with the regulations, it will not be a free-for-all either. If a childminder is caring for three children and charging \u20ac5,000 per year for them, or just over \u20ac400 per month, this would mean that they could take one additional child onto their books and under their care. I have a question for the T\u00e1naiste on the consideration underpinning this policy. What consideration was given to potential alternative approaches such as applying tax only on income above the threshold up to a higher limit, thereby reducing this disincentive? Basically, the way it operates now, or will operate in the future, is that if the income is less than \u20ac20,000 - caring for four children at \u20ac5,000 each, for example - then the childminder will get this benefit but if the minder is caring for five children at \u20ac4,500 each, the minder loses all of it and does not get any benefit at all. Basically, if they go above the threshold, they lose everything. Has consideration been given to applying the tax only on income above the threshold up to the higher limit, thereby reducing the disincentive to take on another child, if they were able to do that? Alternatively, what other consideration was given to linking the threshold to the number of children being minded so that the relief continues to support affordability for parents while encouraging additional childcare places? Let us consider the scenario we could have here. The relief is currently \u20ac15,000 and it has gone up to \u20ac20,000. If minders go above \u20ac15,000 they lose the relief altogether. There is an incentive at the minute to keep it below \u20ac15,000. Now it is going up to \u20ac20,000, so instead of charging the three children \u20ac5,000 each, we could have a situation where they are charging \u20ac6,800 per child. In that scenario, it has not increased the capacity but has actually increased the cost on parents because there has been no link to the number of children who are being cared for, which I believe is the policy intent behind this measure. I will leave those questions with the Minister."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ged Nash Can I clarify whether my amendment is being taken in this section?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Chathaoirleach We are still on section 7. Deputy Nash's amendment is in section 8."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ged Nash I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach. I am happy to wait to discuss it then."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell My question was addressed in the points just raised. It is a question that has come up continually since the budget. Perhaps we could get a breakdown of the analysis that was done to see how this decision was come to, and specifically the figure of \u20ac20,000."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ged Nash The issues are similar to those relating to section 8."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Chathaoirleach Yes, sections 7 and 8 both cover it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ged Nash That is right. A reply I received recently to a parliamentary question suggests that as of August this year there are 202 registered childminders."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris In the childcare scheme, yes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ged Nash I am assuming that this relief is designed to try to promote having more participants in the scheme. It is coming from a relatively low base, as the T\u00e1naiste will know. In 2023 there were 77 registered childminders. There were 82 in 2024, 158 in 2025 and 202 in August 2026. Has the T\u00e1naiste a figure in mind for the number of additional childminders that the increased relief can attract into the scheme? I have no doubt that was borne in mind when the Department was designing the increased tax relief that will be available. The T\u00e1naiste might comment on the numbers he expects to come into the scheme. I am assuming an assessment has been done by the Department."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Chathaoirleach Does Deputy Farrell wish to come in?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell No. I was happy enough with my initial piece. That was my one question."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I am going to be very honest with people here. This is a kind of interim measure that we want to try to see if it makes a difference. I will share all the information I have with the committee in advance of Report Stage. I want to be blunt and truthful with the committee. This is an effort to see if we can stimulate more people - such as those who are at home, working part-time or stay-at-home parents themselves - to mind children in their home. This is a scheme that has been in place for quite a number of years. In a moment I will get to the interplay with the broader point Deputy Nash makes. The rationale for the introduction of the scheme was to encourage stay-at-home parents or those working part-time to provide childcare services on a small scale. The annual gross limit was \u20ac15,000. It had been \u20ac10,000 in the Finance Act 2007. So, \u20ac10,000 in 2007 had gone to \u20ac15,000. It was never intended to reflect a full salary, a living wage or any of those issues we were discussing earlier. The logic here was that this figure had not been increased since 2007. Obviously, as we discussed earlier in respect of many other parts of the Bill, a lot has happened since 2007 in terms of inflation and the real term value of \u20ac15,000. That is the rationale. If we reflect the fact the \u20ac15,000 today is a worth a hell of a less than it was in 2007 and bring it up to \u20ac20,000, will it - we can say no more than that - stimulate some additional supply on a small scale in communities for childminders? Once again, this is the truth but there is a dearth of data on childminding. We know that and that is part of the registration piece Deputy Nash referenced. Things like hourly rates, number of children minded and hours minded vary very significantly across the country. Childminding Ireland has given some advice on hourly rates. If you extrapolate what it says, and this is quite the extrapolation, but if you increase the annual gross income limit by about \u20ac5,000, it may provide childminders with an additional 1,000 hours of childminding in Ireland that would be tax free. That increase, together with the removal of the cap on the number of children who can be minded at any one time, may incentivise childminders and encourage others into the sector. Therefore, it would improve some supply and some accessibility. This change is aimed at giving childminders greater flexibility to support families in their local community while remaining consistent with the relief's aim of facilitating small-scale childcare providers. As the Deputy knows, this scheme was running long before there was any development of the national childcare scheme or any of that. It is run under section 216C of the Taxes Consolidation Act. Individuals claiming the childcare services relief are required to explicitly elect for the relief on or before the return filing date of the tax year for which the relief is claimed. The election is made by completing the relevant fields in a form 11 or 12 tax return. I have a table here that sets out the recent costs and beneficiaries. In 2020, the scheme cost \u20ac1.1 million for 670 beneficiaries, it cost \u20ac1.2 million in 2021 for 570 beneficiaries and cost \u20ac1.3 million, \u20ac1.3 million and \u20ac1.3 million for 2022, 2023 and 2024, respectively. The numbers fell to 530 in 2022, 510 in 2023 and 480 in 2024. I will share the table because it is easier for people to read it than me reading it out. Revenue data indicates that in 2024, there were 480 childminders availing of the relief, leading to the Exchequer cost of \u20ac1.3 million. I do not want to say we are in the experimental space but I am being blunt when I say this is something we will try to see if it has an impact, alongside broader changes. This amendment is not directly linked with the broader work being done in Government around increasing the number of registered childminders. Instead, the changes to the relief were aimed at providing childminders with greater flexibility to support families. We engaged with Childminders Ireland and we engaged with the Department of children. We can debate the merits and demerits but the broader childcare policy is obviously being run by the Minister, Deputy Foley, and her Department through the national childcare scheme. There were initiatives announced on budget day in the speech of the Minister, Deputy Chambers. On the tax side, we have had this relief in place and around 480 people use it each year. If you recognise the figure has not moved since 2007 and if you put it up to \u20ac20,000, would that stimulate more people? We are in the space of asking if it would and we need to monitor it and see. That is the rationale."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell If it is that experimental phase or whatever you want to call that, what is the plan with that? I assume there has to be a plan around how to try to get more people on board in relation to it. That is the obvious question I have."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty In section 7(1)(b)(ii), it says that one of the requirements is \"shows to the satisfaction of the Revenue Commissioners evidence, in a case where the individual is required under Part VIIA of the Child Care Act 1991 to be registered in the register of prescribed early years services, that the individual is so registered\". Can the Minister elaborate on that and talk to us about the September 2027 period, when the transitional arrangements come to an end? Does that affect this section?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I am confusing myself now. That is a separate initiative in terms of the work being done by the Department of children on the registration of childminders to participate in the new national childcare scheme. This is taking a measure that is already there and that predates that scheme. We are just increasing it to see if it incentivises further supply while that broader piece of work is being carried out by the Department of children."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty This is just to clarify. At the minute, somebody who is caring for children in their own home does not need to register-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris To avail of this."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty -----to avail of this. Will that remain the case after September 2027?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Sorry, they will still have to register. If that date remains in place, they will have to register by that date. As of now, it does not apply as in this relief predates that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Okay. But this Bill is for next year so let us look at how this interacts. A childminder who is currently caring for children or who will take up this will have to register and complete a pre-training course. I am thinking about what the Minister said earlier about trying to encourage people who are looking after their own kids and people who are staying at home. For the first part of this year, you may be able to do that and get the benefit of this year but come the end of September, you have to meet all these other conditions. Would that be correct?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Let me use my notes for this because it is quite technical."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Yes, please. It is important if people are looking back and saying I want to do this."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris It is very important. The factual position now is that the Department of children advised that childminders who are minding more than three preschool children or more than six children in total are required to register with Tusla, the Child and Family Agency. Childminders who are minding three or fewer preschool children or six or fewer children in total will continue to be exempt from the registration for the duration of this transitional period. You will only have to register if currently required to by Tusla under the existing rules."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Let us tease this out. At the minute, the legislation basically puts a cap on three children. Therefore, under current legislation, you do not have to register because you fall under the cap of three children. This section has two purposes: first, increase the threshold to \u20ac20,000 from \u20ac15,000 and second, remove the three children cap. Any parent out there who is thinking of taking this up or expanding the number of children they have to avail of the higher threshold will now have to register with Tusla. Registering with Tusla is not just filling in a form. They will also now have to comply. I am not saying this is a bad thing, I am just looking at it. Will they have to do a pre-registration course as a registered childminder?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris That is correct. This is a statement of the blindingly obvious but to be fair to anybody who might be following this for their own life or business, as of now, that deadline is currently September 2027. It will be for the Department of children to make a call whether to leave that deadline in place or extend it. That is the current position."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty That is a legislative deadline."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Yes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty What happens to Mary down the road who says I like this idea. I can now look after four children in my own home and earn up to \u20ac20,000. I get the tax exemption and I want to do this. She does it from January up until September and, come the legislative deadline, she now needs to register, have insurance, complete a pre-registration course and she needs to do other things that are all appropriate in relation to the care of the children - I am not coming down on that - but she says I do not want to do this. What happens in terms of the tax relief in relation to that?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris She would have to be registered."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Even though she provided it for the first eight or nine months of the year?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris She would have to register from January."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Does she get a partial tax credit?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Will she be eligible to get the tax benefit up until the point in September?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty There is no legal requirement. She fulfils-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris If she is already minding four children, she would have to be registered already."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Yes but what if she is minding three children?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris That would be a new requirement on her by September 2027. She would have to be registered by September 2027."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Okay."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I take the point the Deputy is making, though."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I understand. They are the facts in terms of having to register and all of the other bits that come with that. I am really asking how the tax benefit applies. If we have somebody who is providing care for 11 months of the year, complying with the law and then does not want to take the next step of becoming a registered childminder along with doing the insurance and all the rest, is it taxable income? Is it taxable, even though they complied with the law up until that point?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris They would be entitled to claim it up until the point where the change comes in if they have decided not to register from then."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Yes? Is that clear in the legislation?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris I will just check."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Okay."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris It is a technical area for which we have revenue responsibility but there is also interaction with the Department of children. I might produce a note for the committee. That will be for-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty That is fine before Report Stage."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris -----Report Stage."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Chathaoirleach Yes, to see whether the credit is pro rata or for the full year."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Yes, exactly. I will produce a note for the committee."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty It is just because the text before us talks about the year of assessment. It does not talk about any partial year of assessment. It makes it a condition, in the new subparagraph (ii), that an individual who has to be registered needs to be registered. I want to make sure people do not lose everything when they have complied with everything up until then."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris Certainly, that is not the policy intent but-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Yes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Simon Harris -----let us make sure that is correct."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty That is fine."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Chathaoirleach That neatly brings us to the end of section 7. I now propose that we suspend for one hour until 3 p.m."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an su\u00ed ar fionra\u00ed ar 2.01 p.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 3.09 p.m.."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sitting suspended at 2.01 p.m. and resumed at 3.09 p.m."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Ghlac an Teachta Mair\u00e9ad Farrell an Chathaoir ar\u00eds."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell resumed the Chair."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"NEW SECTION"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ged Nash I move amendment No. 8: In page 11, between lines 3 and 4, to insert the following: \u201cReport on childcare services relief 8. The Minister for Finance shall, within six months of the passing of this Act, following consultation with the Minister for Children, Disability and Equality, prepare and lay before D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann a report on the operation of section 216C of the Principal Act, which shall set out\u2014 (a) the number of individuals who claimed relief under that section, and the cost of that relief, in each of the 5 years of assessment preceding the passing of this Act, (b) the number of individuals registered as childminders in the register of prescribed early years services under Part VIIA of the Child Care Act 1991 in each of those years, and (c) an assessment of whether the amendments made by section 7 are likely to increase the number of registered childminders and the supply of registered childminding places.\u201d. Many of the issues that are referenced in this amendment were addressed in the previous section. I am happy to withdraw it."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment, by leave, withdrawn."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 8"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question proposed: \"That section 8 stand part of the Bill.\""},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Section 8 deals with the support for survivors of residential and institutional abuse and stems from the 2025 Act. This exemption is appropriate and basically exempts them from USC, PRSI and income tax. The exemption is going to apply from 6 March of this year. It is retrospective legislation. Why was this not dealt with during the passage of the Act itself? Why are we dealing with it after the fact? Will people be reimbursed income tax, USC or PRSI and when is that likely to take place? If they are to be reimbursed do we have an indication of the numbers that will be reimbursed?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister of State at the Department of Finance (Deputy Robert Troy) I thank Deputy Doherty for the question. I understand this was not brought to our Department's attention at the time. It was recently brought to our Department's attention by the Department of Education and Youth. For that reason, we are bringing the change forward now. However, as the Deputy knows, with any taxation, if somebody has been overtaxed there is capacity to claim tax back. I have discussed with the officials that we will check to make sure that nobody was overtaxed in regard to any payment made in the last number of months."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Does the Department have information in relation to payments made since March of this year? I presume any payments made were subject to the law, that is, PRSI, USC, and income tax. If the Department is aware of the number of payments made, I assume there will be an automatic recalculation by the Revenue Commissioners to reimburse them?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy To date, approximately 1,800 applicants have engaged with the Department of Education and Youth to confirm their eligibility and to apply for supports. The Department of Education and Youth has made approximately 1,600 payments under the Act and has provided the HSE with information on more than 1,200 eligible applicants in order that they can be issued with a new medical card. My understanding is that no tax has been deducted from those 1,600 payments."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty No tax has been deducted as of yet. Therefore I take it there will not be any need for reimbursements to anybody?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy That is my understanding."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Okay. I thank the Minister of State."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 9"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question proposed: \"That section 9 stand part of the Bill.\""},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty This is in relation to the nurturing skills learner fund, which was launched towards the end of 2023. This is an existing scheme. The application of this income tax, USC, and PRSI exemption will apply for the years 2027 up to 2035. Does that mean that those who benefited from this fund prior to those dates will continue to pay income tax, PRSI, and USC or will they be reimbursed?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy As the rebate opens in March of next year, nobody has actually sought it as of yet. It has not come into effect."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty The payments will not come into effect until next year?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy That is correct. People can only apply for a rebate from March of next year so nobody has had any rebate of taxes or charges."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty There has been no reimbursement. I appreciate the Minister of State's response."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 10"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question proposed: \"That section 10 stand part of the Bill.\""},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty This section deals with termination payments and pensions. There are a number of ways Revenue calculates a standard basic exemption, an increased basic exemption or a standard capital superannuation benefit. This is obviously complex legislation. It appears to me that there was a benefit to one cohort of individuals that was not available to other cohorts and this section is rectifying that. I ask the Minister of State to clarify that. I also ask him to clarify that people with personal retirement savings accounts, PRSAs, and pan-European personal pension products, PEPPs, will not pay more tax as a result of their being excluded from the relevant capital sum calculation. It is my understanding that this section brings them into that area. I ask the Minister of State to clarify that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Deputy Doherty is right. We were trying to modernise the legislation to take account of new pension products and there were some unintended consequences. It has been brought to the attention of the Department that the amendment as currently drafted potentially has unintended consequences, which may impact on the operation of the measure. As a result of that, an alternative legislative approach is being actively considered and it is intended to bring that forward as a Report Stage amendment."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Okay. That clarifies that and leaves a bit of vagueness because we do not know what the Department is bringing forward. This amendment has unintended consequences so let us talk about the policy objective it is trying to achieve. Is it the case that the new approach the Department is looking at will require a factoring in of the net present value of future tax-free retirement lump sums? Will the requirement to calculate the net present value of future retirement lump sums therefore reduce the amount of tax-free termination relief that is available, such as the standard capital allowance or the increased exemption that an individual can claim today?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy I ask Deputy Doherty to put that question to me again."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty That is fine. I am not discussing the amendment because the Minister of State has indicated the Government is withdrawing it because of unintended consequences and will look at a different legislative approach on Report Stage. In relation to the policy objective of this new legislative approach, will it still require the factoring in of the net present value of future tax-free retirement lump sums? Will this therefore directly reduce the tax-free termination relief that would be available, such as the standard capital allowance or the increased exemption that an individual can claim? Is that the intention?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy If a person waives his or her future right, that will have an impact on tax liability."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty So the individual will have to calculate the net present value. Is that correct?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Yes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Okay. In doing that, there will be an impact in relation to the relief that individual currently enjoys. The tax-free termination relief is likely to be a reduction. Is that correct?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy The pension lump sum would be reduced by the amount the individual waived at the termination payment."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty They would be worse off, basically. Is this an anomaly that exists primarily in relation to PRSAs as opposed to occupational pensions and is the provision addressing PRSAs to bring them more into line with occupational pensions?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy It predominantly relates to PRSAs, but it encompasses other modern pension products. There is an acknowledgement that, as drafted, it is not as intended, which is why it is being revisited. We will introduce a further amendment on Report Stage. We can provide a note in advance of Report Stage to outline exactly what we want to achieve."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty The Minister of State mentioned modern pension products. Will this have an impact on auto-enrolment? Does it cut across that as well?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy As currently drafted, yes. However, we will bring forward an amendment to address that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty To ensure that it does not impact it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Correct."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I thank the Minister of State. The note will be helpful. As I said, it is a complex piece."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 11"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question proposed: \"That section 11 stand part of the Bill.\""},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty This section deals with the employer reporting requirement. On the face of it, it appears to be a minor and probably sensible approach to move the reporting date from 1 January to a later date that is more in line with how companies report in any event. The reporting date is to move to the 14th of the month, which aligns with the current statutory filing deadline for payroll taxes. As such, it makes sense for administrative purposes. This refers to collecting information on employers that reimburse travel and subsistence costs to their employees. When I questioned the Minister on this previously, he talked about how efficient and how well this system was working. I presume the change in date has come from employer representatives or those filing their returns. I am conscious of the burden this reporting obligation can place on very small employers. Has there been any consideration given to exempting small employers from it? Given that it was introduced in the Finance Bill 2022, there is a large level of compliance with it. I believe 80% of businesses are availing of the integrated reporting that has been built into the software systems. Now that we have years of reports, what are we trying to find out? What is the objective now in relation to this section? Is it a tax compliance issue? With all such administrative burdens, there is always a balance to be struck as regards whether they are becoming overly administrative in comparison with the benefit, particularly for very small employers. I am just asking these questions. Has any of this been given consideration by the Minister or his officials?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy At present, employers must report to Revenue the details of certain benefits provided and reimbursement of expenses on or before the date the employer provides the benefit or makes the payment to the employee. This means that the reporting is done in real time. The reportable benefits relevant to the enhanced reporting requirements, ERR, are the remote working daily allowance of \u20ac3.20, the payment of travel and subsistence expenses and the small benefit exemption. Following engagement with stakeholders, and arising from a recommendation of the cost of business advisory forum, this Finance Bill will amend the Taxes Consolidation Act to facilitate changes to the Income Tax (Employments) Regulations, allowing for greater flexibility to employers in when ERR reporting may be done. While the primary amendment will allow for this change, the detail will be specified in the Income Tax (Employments) Regulations, which will be in place from 1 January 2027. These changes to the regulations will allow employers to choose to continue to report the reportable benefits to Revenue in real time if they so wish - as the Deputy alluded to, some people will have already made the change to their systems or whatever - or for others, particularly, as the Deputy alluded to, smaller businesses, to make monthly returns. As a result of this change, an employer may continue to report the provision or payment of reportable benefits on or before they are provided to employees or they may now choose to report by the 14th of the month following the income tax month in which the reportable benefit is provided. The section makes legislative changes which are necessary to enable the change to the timing. Employer representative groups have welcomed this change. It came about as a result of engagement with stakeholders and it was a recommendation from the cost of business advisory forum. The requirements enhance Revenue's compliance framework to ensure that the correct amount of tax is collected at the right time. It results in optimal efficiency for compliant taxpayers and for Revenue. It is also an important source of data, providing valuable information to assist my Department for policymaking consideration and tax expenditure reviews. Prior to the introduction of the ERR, the exact tax expenditure cost for the three tax-free benefits could not be ascertained. The availability of this data is proving to be useful for the Department and was already being used for equality budgeting purposes in 2025, as well as for improving accuracy and evaluating the cost of tax expenditures. Before ERR, the Department estimated the cost of the small benefit exemption to be \u20ac8 million per year. The actual cost, as per the 2024 data return, was \u20ac110 million and this increased to \u20ac165 million in 2025. The small benefit exemption is now ranked among the costliest tax expenditures, as per our annual reports for 2024 and 2025. The small benefit exemption is due to sunset in 2029 and the data return via ERR will be fundamental to its review."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty The Minister of State focused a wee bit on the small benefit exemption. If a company has an employee going out to meet a client 30 miles down the road, the company reimburses that employee their travel costs and it has to file that now with Revenue, even though it is tax-free. It is a non-taxable payment. The company has to do that over and over again. With four years of data now available, does the collection of this information have a continued purpose in relation to compliance? What is the purpose of continually collecting this data? If somebody was travelling 40 km or 50 km to work and having their travel expenses reimbursed, that would be a taxable reimbursement, but I am wondering if this employers' reporting requirement will now be a permanent feature of the tax code. The context of my asking the question is the potential administrative burden on very small employers. We have done carve-outs in the past for small operators."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy My understanding is that this information enables Revenue to carry out risk analysis to ensure there is proper tax compliance. Revenue sought this data a number of years ago. It helps it to ensure that people are complying with their tax liabilities as part of the risk analysis data collection. Employers were previously required to keep this data. It is not as if this is new data. The requirement is now that they share the data with Revenue but they were always required to keep this data on file anyhow."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Every employer will have a system to allow employees to claim their expenses. I will again go back to the question. I do not know the answer. Has the Department or Revenue carried out an assessment? I agree, and I agreed with the section in the first instance, that we have the data. We now have close to four years of data on this. It is about risk assessment. Was there any risk? We can ask somebody to go and do all this bureaucracy and to give us all this information, but if the information supplied showed there was no risk there anyway and there was no issue, should we continue to demand it? Was there an issue in the first instance? Revenue now has that data and will be able to assess whether there was a risk or abuse of the system, if you want to call it that, or not, and, therefore, whether it is appropriate or not for the section to continue to function as it is for all employers. As I said, there may be a case where there is a risk for some very large employers but not small employers or vice versa . However, analysis must be carried out after the new piece of legislation was introduced a number of years ago. We do this all the time. We add spokes to the wheels which just puts more and pressure on businesses. There has to be a point at which we look back and ask if the information is still as relevant today as it was then. We must ask whether the risk materialised and consider whether the risk would come back again if we did not have this reporting. Has that analysis been carried out?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy The Deputy has raised a valid question. It is fair to say that Revenue now has two years' worth of data available from 2024 and 2025. I understand that Revenue is using the data that is collated for compliance intervention based on the new data that has been gathered. I cannot say whether risks have been identified based on the compliance intervention investigations that Revenue has undertaken. I will go back to try to find out whether issues have been identified as part of the data collection and compliance intervention Revenue has conducted to date. I will look to see can we update the Deputy on Report Stage."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I appreciate that. I thank the Minister of State."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 12"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question proposed: \"That section 12 stand part of the Bill.\""},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach This is an interesting section. I will ask the Minister of State to read his notes on the section. As Chair, I cannot ask questions except for clarifications. I ask the Minister of State to read his note on section 12, which is interesting. It relates to the domicile levy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy This section amends section 531AA of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997, TCA, to provide that, for the purposes of the domicile levy, relevant donations made under section 847AA of the TCA may not be deducted when determining whether an individual meets the \u20ac1 million aggregate worldwide income threshold. Section 847AA of the TCA provides for a scheme of tax relief for donations to certain national governing bodies for sport where the donations are used to fund certain projects. For the purposes of calculating the domicile levy, this amendment aligns the treatment of donations made under section 847AA of the TCA with the existing treatment of donations made under section 847A of the TCA, which deals with donations to approved sports bodies for certain capital projects. Section 847AA of the TCA was introduced two years ago. It was an oversight that it was not brought in to the domicile levy. That is why it was introduced here."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Okay. I cannot ask questions. Does anybody have any questions they would like to ask?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I do."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Go ahead."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty The Minister of State mentioned that it was an oversight that this was not dealt with in a previous Finance Bill. It will prevent donations to approved fundraising bodies as a way of deducting your income to get you below the \u20ac1 million threshold. That is my understanding of the amendment. More broadly, is the Government tinkering around the edges with this legislation? The domicile levy was introduced in the Finance Act of 2010. At that time, 37 people were paying the domicile levy. Three years ago, there were 18. Last year, there were 13. The super-wealthy are obviously finding a way around paying this levy. Does the Minister of State believe that the amendment to the domicile levy in this section will have any meaningful change for significantly wealthy individuals who have holdings and income tax liabilities in Ireland? Will this increase the number of people who are paying this levy? Does the Minister of State think that is the appropriate number of people who should be paying the levy?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cian O'Callaghan As has been said, in 2010, there were 37 people paying the domicile levy and there are now only 13. What is the Minister of State's view as to why the number has dropped? Is it his view that closing this loophole alone will be sufficient to get the number back up? Has he or the Department done any analysis on why so few people are paying the levy? It is extraordinary that just 13 people are paying. Is the Minister of State considering other measures to close further loopholes to get the level of payment and the number of people paying back up?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ged Nash I am long on the record as having concerns about the operation of the levy. The remarkable thing is that the number of individuals paying the levy and the cumulative value of the levy have been remarkably consistent over recent years. It has hovered around \u20ac2 million in terms of what is generated from it each year. It was \u20ac2.07 million in 2024, which is the most recent year for which I have figures available. That was down from \u20ac2.93 million in 2023. There are approximately 13 individuals paying it. What is remarkable is that all of the evidence, including reports from the Central Bank and the ESRI, and data available to the Department of Finance, would suggest, as we know, that net wealth has grown considerably since the levy was introduced in 2010 and that wealth is concentrated in the top 5% of income holders and asset owners. The inequality gap is rising. Does the Minister of State have an explanation of why only a very small number of individuals are paying this? Why are the numbers so consistent given the obvious increase in net wealth in recent years? What does the Minister of State plan to do about it?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy This levy was introduced back in 2010 as part of the then Government\u2019s response to the financial crisis. Its main purpose was to ensure that Irish-domiciled individuals with Irish property were liable to pay a contribution, notwithstanding that they may or may not have been Irish tax resident. It was never intended to raise significant levels of revenue but was introduced to ensure that a levy was payable in solidarity with the prevailing financial situation. The Revenue district with operational oversight role in respect of the domicile levy is the high wealth and financial services division. This division actively monitors tax compliance with regard to the domicile levy through focused compliance projects. These include a project carried out in 2014 and 2015 for the 2010 to 2013 tax years and a project initiated in 2021 in respect of tax years from 2017 onwards, which was extended in 2022, 2023 and 2024. The projects examined the returns and payments of the domicile levy by high net worth individuals. Revenue's systems are utilised to identify potential cases who should have filed a domicile levy return. This has resulted in capturing other people who may not have been captured in the past. People\u2019s circumstances change the whole time. Taxpayers who were previously liable may have disposed of Irish-situated property, bringing their holding below the \u20ac5 million threshold. They may have become fully resident in Ireland and, therefore, be paying tax through other methods, such as PAYE or capital gains tax. There may have been a reduction in their worldwide income below the relevant levels. As I said, they now pay Irish income tax in excess of \u20ac200,000, thereby satisfying their Irish tax obligation through the mainstream tax system. There are a number of reasons a situation may have changed but the one thing that has not changed is Revenue\u2019s oversight of the people who should be paying it. As I have said, Revenue has carried out a number of compliance projects to ensure the right people are being captured."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cian O'Callaghan I accept what the Minister of State said regarding people\u2019s circumstances changing and this is absolutely the case. What is extraordinary here is that the circumstances have all changed in one direction, away from 37 people paying it down to just 13. This seems quite extraordinary. Is there any explanation of why this has happened at a time of growing wealth in this cohort? Circumstances have changed in just one direction, which is away from paying the domicile levy. This is quite extraordinary and we have not seen this in other forms of taxation. Circumstances have changed for PAYE workers for sure since 2010 but it has not resulted in such a mass reduction in the number of people paying their income tax."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I have the same question so I will let the Minister of State answer."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy It is a point well made. We have to have confidence in Revenue\u2019s ability to make sure it is collecting the relevant taxes that fall due. It has indicated that a number of compliance projects were initiated. One such project covered the years from 2010 to 2013. Another project, which was initiated in 2021, covered the years from 2017 onwards and was extended in the following years. One of the reasons could well be that people are paying in excess of \u20ac200,000 through mainstream taxation in Ireland now, and if they are it absolves them from the domicile levy. On Deputy O'Callaghan's point in relation to people\u2019s activities generating more wealth and people becoming wealthier, if this is the case and as a consequence they are paying more tax through mainstream taxation, then they are no longer liable to pay the \u20ac200,000 domicile levy. The Revenue district that deals with this is the high wealth and financial services division and we have to have confidence that it is ensuring the levy is collected."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty When we are dealing with the domicile levy, we are dealing with the issue of domicile but the issue of domicile is a basket case. It is so outdated that it is unbelievable and there is no attempt by the Department to deal with it. The Minister of State said this only applies to people who are domiciled here but 64,400 people in Ireland currently claim non-domiciled status. This is fine; we all know people who are not domiciled here as they are domiciled in other jurisdictions and this is okay. We have workers who come in for short periods and we can understand this. Let us look deeper into these numbers. We have 9,600 individuals who claim that they are not domiciled in Ireland despite being resident in Ireland and being Irish nationals. They are not domiciled here. The ordinary guy in the street is wondering how this is happening. Let us look at the case law, because domicile is not tax residency or citizenship but a concept in itself. We can speak about a case that applied to Ireland in a judgment made a number of years ago in the Sherman case, whereby a woman born in India with British citizenship was held to have an Irish domicile because her father was born in Ireland, despite the fact that she spent only three weeks of her life in Ireland. The opposite happens as well. We have 9,600 people who are Irish tax residents and Irish nationals but they are non-domiciled. Even if they were super wealthy, none of them would be eligible to pay this tax. The concept is outdated. Britain has moved away from the concept of domicile. The Commission on Taxation was dealing with this as far back as 2009. We have been raising this for a number of years and I have tabled an amendment to the Finance Bill again this year, which we will be discussing later. In 2009 the Commission on Taxation examined the issue of remittance basis and referred to the measure as not compatible on equity grounds with a modern tax system. That was 17 years ago. In 2021 the Commission on Taxation and Welfare largely agreed with this assessment. It pointed out that the concept of remittance may be outdated and pointed to it becoming increasingly uncertain with new forms of wealth such as cryptocurrency. It also noted that the remittance basis facilitates and encourages the holding of certain income and assets by non-domiciled individuals outside of Ireland, potentially discouraging inward investment. The Commission on Taxation and Welfare also accepted that non-domiciled status may play a role in attracting international mobile or highly skilled individuals to live, invest and work in Ireland. This is the benefit of it. Accordingly, it called for extensive restrictions so it would apply only to individuals living or working in Ireland on a short-term or more transient basis who have no real ties to the State. The commission said this could be achieved by limiting eligibility for the remittance basis to a maximum of three years' residence, similar to the period used to establish ordinary resident status. That was five years ago and nothing has happened. Our neighbours up the road abolished its non-domiciled tax regime from 6 April 2025 and basically replaced it with what the Commission on Taxation and Welfare called for here, which was a three-year regime, with Britain adopting a four-year regime. The concept of domicile is so outdated but we are one of only a few countries that still operate this system. We are talking about the domicile levy. If the woman I referred to, who was born in and lives in India and spent only three weeks in Ireland, can claim domicile here - no harm to her; I do not know who she is but good luck to her - how easy is it for ultra-wealthy individuals to claim domicile somewhere else and, therefore, not have to pay the domicile levy? We need to get real. The Government is tinkering around the edges here while the super-wealthy are able to do as I have described. What does that mean? It means they do not pay taxes on their worldwide income. Thinking about the inequality in all of this, we have a situation where two individuals who are citizens of Ireland, are tax resident here and earn the exact same amount of money, one from foreign income and the other from domestic income, are treated completely differently under our taxation system. One gets away with not paying much tax and the other is taxed to the hilt. It is not fair and it arises because of this outdated concept of domicile, which people born elsewhere can claim through a parent or whatever else. It is so outdated. The problem is that it has been made clear to successive Governments since 2009 that this provision is not compatible with a modern tax system, yet we continue to operate it while the Government tinkers around the edges saying that if people make a donation to a body, it will not be included in the \u20ac1 million. That is not the problem. The problem is that we have a serious issue in terms of a completely outdated provision in our tax system. It needs to be changed."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy I want to be fair to Deputy Doherty but he seems to be trying to portray that the person living in Ireland is not paying any tax at all, and that is not the case. If people have any Irish source of income, that tax is collected through the mainstream taxation system here, while their worldwide income is taxed based on the provisions applying wherever that income was generated. Does the Deputy accept that is correct?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Yes, but the Minister of State is missing the point. People born in Ireland, who are living here, are citizens of the country and are tax residents here, can still claim non-domiciled status and, therefore, will not pay tax on their worldwide income. Yet, people who are not claiming non-domiciled status must pay their tax here on their worldwide income. For the past 17 years, the Commission on Taxation and Welfare has been telling successive Governments that this needs to be changed. It has repeated that advice over and over again. The 2021 commission said the same thing, namely, that extensive restrictions should be introduced and that the people genuinely coming here from France or wherever else on short-term contracts to work in IT or in our hospitals should not be impacted. They are not the people we are talking about here. We are talking about people living here who are tax resident here and who should be paying their tax in Ireland, like anybody else, on their worldwide income, but who are not doing so because we have this non-domiciled status in our tax code. All people have to do is tick a box in section 11 on their Revenue return forms to say their status is non-domiciled. As far as I understand it, there is not even a certificate required from Revenue to declare a person is non-domiciled. It is so outdated. As I said, Britain has moved away from this. We need to move away from it as well, catch up with modern times and ensure that genuine people are not impacted. The Government really needs to implement the recommendations of the Commission on Taxation and Welfare and to examine this issue thoroughly before the next Finance Bill to bring us into line with what is being done internationally. The commission was telling us 17 years ago to get into line with modern ways of taxation. For God's sake, what we have is so outdated. It is a way for the wealthy to evade taxation in Ireland."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy People who are resident and domiciled in Ireland pay tax on all their income here."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Yes, their worldwide income."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Yes, their worldwide income. People who are resident and non-domiciled here pay tax on the income they bring into the country."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Yes, but they do not bring it into the country. That is the point. There are 9,600 individuals who are resident here and are nationals of Ireland - they are not French residents or other people who have come here to work; they are Irish nationals - who have claimed non-domiciled status and, therefore, do not pay tax on their worldwide income. People only claim non-domiciled status if they have a worldwide income. They would not claim it for any other reason as there would be no point to doing so. These are people who are wealthy or have other sources of income. They are claiming that status despite being Irish nationals and being tax resident here. I am not saying that none of those 9,600 is entitled to that status. What I am saying is there is a serious issue here that has been pointed out to successive Governments for the past 17 years, with a recommendation to implement serious restrictions. This provision is archaic, outdated and needs to be changed. The Government-appointed experts on the Commission on Taxation and Welfare have been saying that as far back as 2009."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy To be fair, I acknowledge that the Deputy is not saying that all 9,600 people are claiming this status for the purpose of avoiding taxation."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach To be clear, nobody said that. I am stating that for clarity here at the committee."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Yes, that is what I am saying."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty There could be genuine reasons and circumstances in which people are non-domiciled. They could be permanent residents in the US, for example, or somewhere else. However, there is a concern in respect of a serious number of them. There is a reason the experts have been telling the State to move away from this provision. Domiciliary status is like having to indicate one's main centre of interest under the social welfare system. It is not black and white; it is subjective, as such. The concept is outdated."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Does the Deputy propose to oppose this section of the Bill?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I do not propose to oppose the section but I am basically addressing that I have a related amendment later on, which I will come to, and that at the core of this section is the issue of domiciliary status and the problem that if people can claim non-domiciled status, this section does not apply to them. My point is that the Government-appointed experts charged as a panel with examining these matters have been saying for 17 years that this provision is outdated and needs to be changed. That recommendation was reiterated in 2021, with a request for extensive restrictions to be put in place, which is very close to what Britain has done in relation to abolishing its non-domiciled status in 2025 and replacing it with a four-year residency condition. I am asking that genuine consideration be given to the recommendation of the Commission on Taxation and Welfare. The Government is tinkering around the edges on this issue. I do not imagine that there will be any more people paying the domiciliary levy because domiciliary status is so open to abuse that it is easy - not completely easy, but possible - for people to claim a different domiciliary status and, therefore, not have to pay the levy in the first instance."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy I accept the point the Deputy makes. The people he alludes to may not have foreign income, and I think he himself made that point. This is a long-standing feature of our taxation system, and any change to the basis of taxation regarding residence and domicile would be a fundamental change and would require careful consideration. The Deputy has made the point, he has referred to other people who have made the point, and all I can say is that we will take away the point he has made."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I appreciate that. I will just finish my point. I think that, in anybody's mind, 17 years is an adequate amount of time for careful consideration. It is now time to act."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Go raibh maith agaibh for that interesting discussion."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"NEW SECTION"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Amendments Nos. 9, 117 and 124 are related will be discussed together. Amendments Nos. 117 and 124 are in the names of an Teachta Doherty and myself. The way we will do this is that an Teachta Nash will speak first, then an Teachta Doherty will speak, then it will go straight to the Minister of State, then it will come back to you, a Theachta Doherty, and then the discussion will open up to whoever wants to speak."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ged Nash I move amendment No. 9: In page 13, between lines 13 and 14, to insert the following: \u201cReport on domicile levy 13. The Minister for Finance shall, within six months of the passing of this Act, prepare and lay before D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann a report on the operation of Part 18C of the Principal Act, which shall set out\u2014 (a) for each year since the domicile levy was introduced, the number of individuals who paid the levy and the amount of levy paid, (b) an estimate of the number of individuals domiciled in the State whose world-wide income exceeds \u20ac1,000,000 and who did not pay the levy, and the principal reasons why they did not do so, (c) the effect on the yield of the levy of the credit for Irish income tax provided for in that Part, (d) the effect on the number of individuals liable to the levy of the monetary thresholds in that Part and of the amount of the levy, having regard to changes in prices, incomes and property values since the levy was introduced, (e) options to strengthen the levy, including\u2014 (i) the revision of those thresholds and of the amount of the levy, (ii) the modification or removal of the credit for Irish income tax, and (iii) the reintroduction of citizenship as a connecting factor in addition to domicile, and (f) the estimated yield of each option referred to in paragraph (e) .\u201d. There has been an extensive back-and-forward on this more general issue of the application of the domicile levy and its utility from a number of different perspectives since it was introduced in 2010. I am taken by what Deputy Doherty has said, and these are things I myself have said time and again. The whole domicile piece is an absolute anachronism and a joke. Look at the number of people this applies to and the amount generated from it. I accept what the Minister of State says. There was never necessarily an aspiration to generate an enormous haul from this levy. It was a solidarity levy introduced at a particular point in time. What it speaks to, however, is the absence of a wider approach to a better system of net wealth taxes more generally in Ireland, a system worth the name. Obviously, we have capital gains tax, capital acquisitions tax and so on. I am conscious that the ESRI and the Department of Finance worked on a report recently, and we may have the opportunity to discuss that later. Some of the suggestions made by way of a request for a report in this amendment could be usefully explored by the Minister to make the domicile levy more effective. I refer to Deputy Doherty's point about the reintroduction of citizenship as a connecting factor in addition to domicile. We need to be much more imaginative and realistic about the operation of this levy. We need to find ways to make it work better from the point of view of persuading PAYE workers and taxpayers more generally that this is a system that works and that there is a fairness and an equity to it. That should be the definition of a tax system. Another point made here is the question of the modification or removal of the credit for Irish income tax. That could be considered to make this more equitable. We are talking about people who are objectively very wealthy, and the Revenue Commissioners and our law consider them to be such. I will ask the question I asked earlier in another way. Would the Minister of State accept some of the proposals contained in this amendment to strengthen the domicile levy and make it fairer and more equitable? These are reasonable, realistic proposals that, taken together, might go some way to addressing some of the concerns expressed by Deputy Doherty, myself and others over the years about the operation of this."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I call an Teachta Doherty, then I will call the Minister of State, and then we will open up the discussion to whoever wishes to speak."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Amendment No. 124 relates to the issue I addressed substantially in my last contribution in relation to the non-domiciled status that individuals can claim and looking for a report on the use of non-domiciled status by wealthy individuals to avoid paying taxes on their global incomes. Our other amendment in this group relates to investors, and this relates to investors who will change their tax residency status from Ireland to another country. The amendment argues that there should be an exit tax applied in relation to that. These are individuals who have made investments during their tax residency time in Ireland. The gains have been accrued during that period, they change their tax residency and then the gains are not able to be taxed in that regard. Obviously, we have exit taxes, but they are mainly for companies. I would like the Minister of State to look at examining that issue also."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy I will speak to each amendment separately, if that is okay. Amendment No. 9 refers to the domicile levy. The domicile levy was introduced, as I said earlier, in the Finance Act 2010. The purpose of the levy is to ensure that Irish-domiciled individuals with worldwide income greater than \u20ac1 million and assets located in the State make a contribution to the Exchequer. The levy applies to a \"relevant individual\", which means an individual who is domiciled in Ireland in the tax year; whose worldwide income in the tax year exceeds \u20ac1 million; whose liability to Irish income tax in the tax year is less than \u20ac200,000; and who owns Irish property on 31 December in the tax year where the market value of that property is greater in value than \u20ac5 million. The amount of the levy, where it applies, is \u20ac200,000 per annum. Irish income tax paid by an individual for a tax year is allowed as a credit in calculating the amount of the domicile levy, which is chargeable for that year. In recognition of this income tax payment, the amount of the levy to be paid may be lower than \u20ac200,000. The levy is payable on a self-assessment basis on or before 31 October in the year following the valuation date, which is 31 December. The Revenue Commissioners have published statistics on the domicile levy indicating the number of taxpayer units who pay the levy each year and the total amount of the levy paid. A unit refers to an individual except in the case of couples who are married or are in a civil partnership and have opted for joint assessment, in which case those two individuals are counted as one taxpayer unit and are assessed to tax together. In the case of jointly assessed couples, the individual who is non-resident and the person who is non-domiciled can be either partner in the unit, and it is not always the same person in the unit who fulfils both criteria specified. Levy returns for 2025 were not due to be filed until 31 October of this year, so the latest figures available are for 2024. The total number of individuals who paid the domicile levy in 2024 was 13. The value of the levy collected in 2024 was approximately \u20ac2.08 million. The overall amount of the levy collected since its introduction in 2010 was approximately \u20ac43.4 million. Since its introduction, the number of individuals subject to the levy has been small. However, as individuals who have paid Irish income tax of at least \u20ac200,000 in a relevant year are not liable to the domicile levy, it is not an indicator of non-compliance. Revenue actively monitors compliance by taxpayers liable to the domicile levy through a domicile levy compliance project, which I alluded to earlier. Because much of the information identified in this proposal for an amendment is published by Revenue and in the public domain, and due to the small numbers of taxpayers to whom the levy applies, I do not believe that a further report is necessary at this time and do not propose to accept this amendment. I understand that amendment No. 117 is being suggested in the context of exit tax that applies to Irish investment funds and insurance-based investment products. Generally, for Irish investments funds and insurance-based investment products, taxation arises where value passes to the investor or on the happening of an eight-year deemed disposal. This charge to tax does not apply to a non-resident and non-ordinarily resident investor. Instead, such an investor\u2019s liability to tax on the income and gains from their investment will be determined in their home jurisdiction. Under the legislation, an individual will only have ceased to be ordinarily resident in the State in a tax year where they have not been resident in the State in each of the three preceding tax years. The eight-year deemed disposal rule was originally introduced in the investment undertaking tax and life assurance exit tax regimes to protect the Exchequer from the indefinite deferral of tax. An individual will remain within the scope of the eight-year deemed disposal rule where they are non-resident but are still ordinarily resident in the State. In conjunction with the position with respect to ordinary residence, the eight-year deemed disposal rule can help to limit opportunities for taxpayers to avoid exit tax by moving their tax residence outside the State. The taxation of investment funds and life assurance-based investment products is the subject of ongoing review and policy consideration. This is being carried out particularly in light of the Roadmap for Taxation of Retail Investment, published on 31 August. The roadmap identified administrative simplification and review of the deemed disposal rule as key policy levers to be considered. As further analysis of policy options regarding the taxation of investments is undertaken, it will be necessary to consider issues and evidence as they arise. A process of policy analysis is already under way in this area, and a legislative requirement to present, within a particular timeframe, a report on one of a range of policy options would represent an unnecessary restriction on that process. Therefore I do not propose to accept this amendment. Finally, amendment No. 124 is referring to the remittance basis of taxation. This is the framework by which people who are resident but not domiciled in Ireland are taxed on their overseas income and gains. In summary, such people are chargeable to tax in full on Irish-sourced income or gains, but an Irish tax charge will not arise on overseas income or gains unless these amounts are brought into Ireland. Non-Irish domiciled individuals who are Irish tax resident for a year of assessment are liable to Irish income tax on Irish source income and on foreign income to the extent that the income is remitted or brought into the State. In addition, a liability to Irish capital gains tax arises on foreign gains to the extent that these gains are remitted to the State. This is known as the remittance basis of taxation. It is important to be clear on the concepts of tax residency, ordinary residence and non-domicile status. A person\u2019s tax residence status depends on the number of days they are present in Ireland during a tax year. A person is resident in Ireland for tax purposes if they are present in Ireland for 183 days or more in a tax year, or 280 days or more in total, taking the current tax year plus the preceding tax year together, with a minimum of 30 days in each of the two years. If a person has been tax resident in Ireland for three consecutive tax years, they become ordinarily resident from the beginning of the fourth tax year. If that person leaves Ireland after this time, they continue to be ordinarily resident for three consecutive tax years. For these three years they must pay Irish tax on their worldwide income except for income from a trade or profession, no part of which is performed in Ireland, income from an office or employment, where all the duties are performed outside Ireland, or other foreign income, for example, investment income, if it is \u20ac3,810 or less. If it is more than \u20ac3,810, the full amount is taxable. Domicile is a concept of general law. It broadly means living in a country with the intention of living there permanently. Domicile is a much more permanent concept than residence. Under these principles, no person can be without a domicile and it is not possible to have more than one domicile at the same time. For tax purposes, there are two key types of domicile: domicile of origin, which is the domicile that every person acquires at birth and is usually the domicile of the person\u2019s father; and domicile of choice, which is acquired by a person by residing in a country with the intention of doing so permanently. If the individual abandons their domicile of choice, they resume their domicile of origin. Non-domiciled persons who are resident in Ireland can generally be divided into individuals who come to reside in Ireland on a temporary or more short-term basis, often to take up an employment in the State for a fixed period, and long-term residents who claim a non-domicile status. The remittance basis of taxation for non-domiciles is a long-standing feature of the Irish tax system and the Irish tax system is not unique in only taxing income remitted by non-domiciled individuals. The stability in our remittance regime means that the tax treatment of non-domiciled individuals is clear, certain and predictable. As noted, it often used by individuals who come to work in Ireland on a short-term basis. In an environment of increasing global mobility, our stable regime provides those seconded to Ireland with certainty on their liability to Irish tax from the outset. Accordingly, I do not believe that a report is necessary, and I do not propose to accept this amendment."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Does an Teachta Nash or an Teachta Doherty wish to come in? An Teachta Doherty. If anyone else wishes to indicate, they may do so."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I hear the deemed disposal rule is under review. We will deal with the new investment product later on. For ordinary investors, run-of-the-mill people, the deemed disposal rule is very frustrating. It impacts on the compound interest that would apply to the investment and the benefits they would accrue from it. I made the point that changes were needed but they needed to be tailored in a way that does not undermine the reason the deemed disposal rule was there in the first place. It was not for somebody putting a couple of thousand euro into investments on the Stock Exchange or even a couple of tens of thousands of euro. The deemed disposal rule was for high net wealth individuals who were in the luxurious position that they never had to actually realise the gains in their investment. Therefore, a taxable event never occurred. For most people who are now investing, it is a way of supporting their pension, helping them to purchase a home or with whatever they are looking to do in their future. When I talk about an exit tax, we are talking about gains that are being accrued while someone is tax-resident in Ireland. There is a reason those gains are not charged annually, which is connected with capital gains tax, CGT. Because those gains are not charged annually, the taxable event only comes when the person sells the investment - the property, the shares, whether in a company or elsewhere. By changing tax residency and allowing the time to elapse whereby they are no longer ordinarily resident, they avoid paying the tax altogether. There is an easy way to do this, and that is an exit tax. If we believe the tax was applicable when an individual was here in Ireland, we were not charging it until they sold, but if they decide to exit the country, we put an exit tax in place. A deemed disposal is an example of this. We just make the chargeable event the day that the individual changes their tax residency, and therefore the gains that were made are now taxable. I am not talking about people who change their tax residency because they are moving from country to country; we are a small world and all the rest. There are people who change their tax residency for tax purposes. Massive gains are being made and by moving and taking up residency in another country, which might have a warmer climate and a very low taxation position, they avoid paying potentially millions of euro in tax to the Revenue. I strongly suggest this area be given consideration, along with the nature of the outdated idea of domicile, in the preparation for next year's Finance Bill because these are issues that need to be addressed in a very serious way."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Maybe I am misunderstanding Deputy Doherty, but people have to be out of the country for three years to be deemed not ordinarily resident. I do not know whether I can agree with the Deputy on the principle that people are literally moving out of the country just to avoid paying tax."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty My God. Of course they are."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy They will move for three years. Is that correct?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Of course. That is the point. Once you change your tax residency and allow the time in which you will no longer be deemed ordinarily resident to elapse - the ordinarily resident calculation is a three-year period, as the Minister of State said - then you avoid paying the tax. Someone could make millions of euro of gains that would go tax-free. The Minister of State may not think high net wealth individuals are moving their tax residency but it happens all over the world. There are people moving in parts of America to avoid taxes. There are people moving all over the place to avoid taxes. It does not mean they cannot come back to Ireland. It just means they cannot stay in Ireland for more than 183 days. Of course this is happening. People we meet every day in the streets are not doing this. High net wealth individuals are doing it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Where people move, they will still pay tax on Irish sources of income, even after the three-year period."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty If they have invested, for example, that income will not be tax resident in Ireland after three years. It will be in the new jurisdiction that they are in. It would be different if they sold a property down the road in Ballsbridge."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy If the income is Irish sourced, they will still pay tax on Irish income. If the investment was Irish-sourced income, they will pay."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty If they have invested in an ETF, for example, they will pay tax on that regardless when they sell it in another jurisdiction. Is that correct?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Deputy Doherty is right. After the three-year residency, they are not deemed to realise any tax on any gain but the eight-year deemed disposal rule would have kicked in in advance of the three years."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty For clarification, does the deemed disposal rule kick in for shares?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy No."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty If I bought shares in Coca-Cola, God forbid, or something else, the deemed disposal rule would not kick in. If I make massive gains on those, change my tax residency and wait for three years until I am no longer ordinarily resident, will I have any tax liability in Ireland?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy If you hold the shares for up to three years after you leave, there will be no Irish tax liability."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty That is the point. The high net worth individuals spend a good bit of money on financial planning and if there is a significant amount of tax that they can avoid paying, they will avoid paying it. Changing tax residency does not mean you cannot still live in Ireland. It just means you cannot be in Ireland for more than 183 days in a year. It also means you cannot, over a two-year period, be in Ireland for 300-and-something days - it might be 350. It is not especially cumbersome. It is not as if you need to say goodbye. If you can avoid a significant amount of tax liability by changing your tax residency and waiting for three years - the period after which you are no longer ordinarily tax resident under the definition - you will take that opportunity. My point is that an exit tax would deal with that. We talk about deemed disposal, which, as the Minister of State acknowledged, does not apply to ordinary shares. However, it does apply to other types of investments. We could have a structured type of deemed disposal - an exit tax, basically \u2013 under which, when someone changes their tax residency, the taxable event would be deemed to have occurred and therefore capital gains tax would be applied on the value of that investment at that stage."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Sorry, will the Deputy say that again? I missed the last point."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty If someone who has been living here for 20 years sees a huge gain on shares they hold and decides to move abroad, they know that in three years' time they will no longer have any tax liability on these multimillion euro share gains they made in Ireland. That is simply wrong. The Government needs to apply an exit tax. An exit tax would basically mean that the chargeable event takes place at the time when the person changes their tax residency. It is a case of someone spending 20 years here building up these gains and the State deciding not to charge them tax on those gains until they actually sell. However, that is not the complete picture because we have it in our tax code - the deemed disposal - that even if that person does not sell, we charge them every eight years. We should apply the same principle to people who are changing their tax residency for the purpose I outlined. They are predominantly high-wealth individuals. This can be structured in a way where there is a threshold and the chargeable event is at that point in time. That is what I am asking the Minister of State to consider. I am not asking him to answer \"Yes\", \"No\" or be indifferent here at the minute but I am saying that this is a serious issue that needs to be considered in the round in relation to the non-domiciled status. This is an issue in terms of tax planning and it is too easy for people to do this at the minute."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy I will make a number of points. The Deputy has alluded to the eight-year deemed disposal rule in terms of investment funds. A significant body of work has been conducted on that in terms of the funds review. The recommendation is that that is a hugely uncompetitive and unattractive proposition. That is there at the moment and work is already under way. There is an amendment further on in the Bill that looks at removing that eight-year deemed disposal because of its unattractiveness and the work that has been done. That may not be the best example to use in terms of what the Deputy has suggested. Another point is that we must be very cognisant of the fact that we are members of the EU, which enables the free movement of people. Any exit tax may - I am not saying it would - have implications in that regard. That is something that would need to be explored further. Shares can rise and fall. Just because shares are of a value today does not mean that they will be of the same value in three years' time. The chargeable gain on shares is only realised when a person actually makes that gain. There are certain people who would rather sell shares today than six months down the line. I am not saying that that in itself is the reason. There is no certainty that somebody will make a gain at some stage into the future in dealing with shares because the valuation of a share can rise as well as fall."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty If the shares have not risen, then there will not be an exit tax, so people will be happy enough with it. I know that they probably will not change their tax residency either for this purpose if that is the reason they are doing it. As I said, people are investing in the stock market at the minute through ETFs. If the same thing happens and the AI bubble or whatever bursts, then all of these unrealised gains could drop, but if people made those investments eight years ago, then Revenue is coming for them and taking their gains today even if the share price drops by thousands of euro tomorrow morning. The deemed disposal exists when there are unrealised gains. I do not want to go back and forth and we have teased this out enough. I have made my point and I think the officials have heard the point that I have made. I am sure that I will come to this again in the future. I am sure that the commission on taxation will continue to ask successive Ministers to start getting a grip with the issue of non-domiciled status before we become a laughing stock among other jurisdictions."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach We are due our 15-minute break now. I will then come back and ask about the pressing of the amendment tabled by Deputy Nash. The other amendments come at a later point."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an su\u00ed ar fionra\u00ed ar 4.35 p.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 4.54 p.m."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sitting suspended at 4.35 p.m. and resumed at 4.54 p.m."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Is Deputy Nash pressing the amendment?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ged Nash Yes."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 13"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question proposed: \"That section 13 stand part of the Bill.\""},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty This section relates to the national governing bodies, NGBs. Will the Minister of State explain the concept of the amendment that deals with using a company structure to fundraise for NGBs instead of allowing donations to continue directly to an NGB? What kind of safeguards are in place to ensure that these entities are not used to avoid the transparency that is required? Reporting of the donations is to be done on the request of the Minister. Was any consideration given to an automatic reporting requirement when certain conditions are met? Does the Department have any estimate of the number of donors? What triggered this in Revenue? How many people would likely be affected by it in any given year, given that there is now a \u20ac1 million cap on tax relief donations or a limit of 10% on the total income, when the donor is associated with the NGB or fundraising body?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy The origins of this amendment are that it was requested by the Federation of Irish Sport, which is the representative body for the NGBs of sports. It felt that this mechanism would enable greater fundraising. The section amends section 847A of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997 to provide for a number of changes to the tax relief scheme for donations to approved sports bodies for the funding of certain projects. Section 847A of the Act provides for a scheme of tax relief for donations to approved sports bodies to fund certain approved capital projects. PAYE and self-assessed income tax donors can elect for the tax benefit to apply either to the recipient sports body - that is the local club or organisation or the national governing body - or themselves. This section of the Bill allows fundraising bodies established by national governing bodies to receive relevant donations and, where applicable, the related tax relief for approved projects, provided these amounts are transferred to its national governing body within 12 months. Otherwise, the amounts will be treated as taxable. This will allow national governing bodies to use the approved fundraising bodies to scale and leverage their fundraising expertise to raise funds for capital projects in the future. The section also imposes an upper limit of \u20ac1 million on the tax relieved donations made by an individual in a year of assessment or, where the donor is associated with the approved sports body, 10% of the donor\u2019s total income. This corresponds with the upper limit on tax relieved donations under the charitable donations scheme in section 848A of the Taxes Consolidation Act. The current reporting and accountability requirements of an approved sports body are also extended to the fundraising body, including requiring fundraising bodies to report on donations and associated tax relief when requested to do so by the Minister for Culture, Communications and Sport and allowing Revenue to consult the Minister about whether a fundraising body is approved for the purposes of the section. In addition, the following safeguards will apply. The fundraising body's operating and administrative costs must be funded from sources other than qualifying donations, which may only be used for approved projects. Donations made to a fundraising body will only qualify for relief if they are intended to be used solely for a qualifying project and are transferred to the relevant NGB for that purpose within 12 months of receipt. The fundraising body must be approved by the Minister for Culture, Communications and Sport before it can receive tax-relieved donations. Where requested, the fundraising body must provide details of the aggregate amounts of donations received and tax reliefs claimed and transferred to the relevant national governing body. These measures are intended to ensure appropriate governance, transparency and compliance with the objectives of the tax relief provisions."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 14 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 15"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question proposed: \"That section 15 stand part of the Bill.\""},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy The high-income individuals restriction is a measure to limit certain specified reliefs so that the relevant cohort of high-income taxpayers are paying a minimum effective rate of tax. The restriction applies to individuals with adjusted income of over \u20ac125,000. Where the adjusted income exceeds this threshold, the specified reliefs are capped. The restriction means that certain reliefs cannot reduce a taxpayer\u2019s liability below an effective rate of approximately 30%. This section amends Schedule 25B to the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997, which sets out the specific reliefs that are subject to restriction under section 485C. The amendment adds section 847AA of the Taxes Consolidation Act, which provides tax relief for relevant donations to sporting national governing bodies for certain approved projects, to the list of reliefs under Schedule 25B to the Taxes Consolidation Act, which are subject to the high-income individuals restriction. This amendment aligns the tax treatment of donations made under section 847AA of the Taxes Consolidation Act with the tax treatment of donations made under section 847A of the Taxes Consolidation Act, donations to certain sporting bodies, which is currently listed in Schedule 25B."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty The high-income earner restriction is obviously there for a reason. The Commission on Taxation and Welfare in its most recent report recommended the continuation of it. However, it crucially added a comment making the point that to ensure its policy objective was maintained, tax relief should only be excluded from it in exceptional circumstances. The earlier sections dealt with the issue of sports donations, and this ensures it is captured under the high-income earners restriction. We know that restriction allows high-income earners to only restrict their taxable amount to an effective tax rate of approximately 30%. What was the consideration by the Minister, the Department and Revenue with regard to not including sporting donations in the high-income earner restriction until now? That is the first question. Why was it treated differently? Second, are there other reliefs that remain outside the high-income earner restrictions at this point that may warrant review? Third, will the Minister's Department furnish this committee with a comprehensive list of all tax reliefs that currently remain outside the high-income earners restriction, and will it do that before Report Stage?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy I will certainly liaise with Revenue and try to get that back to the committee before Report Stage if at all possible. On what we are proposing here, section 847A relating to capital projects was always included. Section 847AA relating to the national governing bodies was excluded due to an oversight two years ago. That is why it is being included today."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty This goes back to my earlier question, which I do not think the Minister of State answered. Given the oversight two years ago that did not exclude the national governing bodies, does the Revenue have any information on how many people availed of this to reduce their tax liability?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy What has been shared with me is that donations to the capital projects, which is a long-standing measure, are quite low. We do not anticipate that what has been excluded for the past two years will be significant. I will get an exact amount for donations to the other one. However, based on that we do not anticipate that numbers will have been significant over the past two years. On the cost of donations to sports bodies, the capital projects included for 2024 was at a cost of \u20ac1 million and 2,580 applicants."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Very good."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 16"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendments Nos. 10 and 11 not moved."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question proposed: \"That section 16 stand part of the Bill.\""},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Two amendments have been ruled out of order. Do members wish to speak to the section? This is the rent-a-room relief section."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Ged Nash I had an amendment ruled out of order. Some other members may want to make some reference to this. I know there will be an amendment later from the Cathaoirleach and Deputy Doherty. We have assessed this since budget day, but this is essentially a signal to landlords to up the rent. That will be the trend. That is likely what will happen. Has the Minister of State made any assessment of the impact this will have on the rental environment? This will have a significant impact. This will be passed on. There is no doubt about that. This has been the trend, and it is what tends to happen when initiatives like this are taken. I am interested to get the Minister of State's perspective on this. I may have an opportunity, with the Chair's permission, to come back in after the Minister of State responds."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty My first question is about the discussions that have been going on in the Department with regard to the development of this policy, which will have the impact of pushing up rents. There is no doubt about that. Has anybody in the Department of Finance or the Revenue raised any concern about the impact of this change in terms of increased rents?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy I will speak to Deputy Nash's and Deputy Doherty's points. In the interests of transparency, I want to put on the record that I am a landlord. When talking about rental issues, I do not want people to say that I did not declare that I may have a conflict of interest. The rent a room relief was introduced in 2001 as an incentive to encourage individuals to let rooms in their sole or main residence of residential accommodation to bring about an increase in the availability of rental accommodation. The relief provides as an exemption from income tax, PRSI and USC on rent received when an individual rents out a room or rooms in their principle private residence and the rent received does not exceed the annual limit for that year. Where the cumulative rent a room income exceeds the annual limit, the taxpayer is not eligible for the relief, and the entire rental income will be subject to the income tax under normal taxation rules. The rent a room income ceiling was last increased in 2017, almost ten years ago, from \u20ac12,000 to \u20ac14,000. This section increases the rental income ceiling from \u20ac14,000 to \u20ac16,000 from 1 January 2027, an increase of 14% over the 2017 level. In 2004, 18,180 landlords claimed rent a room relief to associated tax costs of some \u20ac47 million. What this is doing is to encourage more people to rent out rooms. We can see the number of claimants has increased significantly over the past decade. Going back to 2012, in excess of 5,000 people availed of the rent a room scheme. That has increased in 2024, the last year we have figures for, to over 18,000. This is seen as a measure to incentivise more people into the scheme. There are many instances where people may have more than one room or may have an opportunity to increase a supply measure. The data that we have shows that the average room charge under the rent a room scheme was approximately \u20ac9,000 per year. This has been a success in terms of increasing supply. It is anticipated that the supply will increase further by this increase. This increase also recognises that there has been no increase since 2017. This section also allows for the rent a room relief for auxilary dwellings that were installed after 27 July 2025."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Colm Burke I welcomed this scheme when it was introduced. At local authority level, I represented an area that contained UCC, Munster Technological University, CUH and the Mercy hospital. There was a huge demand for accommodation. This scheme certainly helped. An awful lot of people are retired who are living on their own in houses. In one area I remember going to, out of the ten houses where I knocked on the door, nine of the owners were living on their own in fairly big houses. They were either widows or widowers. This scheme has helped in making accommodation available in that area. The one concern I have about it is if someone is living in Limerick but for tax purposes they are using a tax address in Cork and are renting out a room in that property in Cork, are there any checks on that system? While they are living in a totally different part of the country, for tax purposes they are using the address they are renting rooms in and they are getting tax relief for because that is seen as their primary place of residence. They are residing in another location completely, but they have retained one room within the house so that they can go there at the weekend or for one day a month. Is there a checking system in relation to that?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy A person is only allowed to claim it for the principal private residence. Everybody is only allowed to have one principal private residence. Compliance interventions are carried out and informed by Revenue. I will have to come back to the Deputy with further details on it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Colm Burke I know where it is being used and the person is actually living in a totally different part of the country. They have property in Cork and they are using the system."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy They should not be. Revenue has said it will come back with that in terms of some compliance interventions that have been taking place to make sure that people are not breaking the tax rules."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach For clarification, Revenue will come back, but the point the Deputy has made is not allowed."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Colm Burke It is a technical issue."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Yes. I am just asking so I understand."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Colm Burke It is a technical issue. If people use an address for Revenue tax purposes but it is not their primary residence because they are not living there and they have told Revenue that they are, I am just wondering whether there is a checking system."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy A person only has one sole or main residence. That is the only residence for which he or she is eligible to claim under rent a room relief scheme."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Colm-Burke.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Colm Burke I know, but the point I am making is that I can now earn \u20ac16,000 without having to pay tax on it. In order to get the same return where I was paying tax on it, I would have to get \u20ac32,000 in rent. The Minister of State sees the point I am making where somebody can easily use the system in order that they will not have to pay tax, even though they are residing in a totally different part of the country. I know it is an unusual query, but it is one that I am aware of."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy We will come back to that in relation to compliance intervention that has been looked at where people are inappropriately claiming this tax. Let me be very clear: that is not permissible. It is not eligible to avail of tax on any property other than what is a person's principal private residence. If a person is not living in a property and is living in another part of the country and has a property somewhere else, is renting a room out in that property and claiming the tax-free allowance, that is inappropriate and is not permissible. It is not in the spirit of the relief. The relief is solely and exclusively for principal places of residence. A person cannot have two principal places of residence."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach For full clarity, when the Minister of State says it is not appropriate, he means it is illegal. It is not allowed."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy A person can only claim rent a room in their sole and main residence. If somebody is illegitimately claiming it, they are-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Breaking the law."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty In developing this policy, did any official in the Department of Finance or Revenue raise a concern that this might increase rents?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy It was one of the considerations that was raised at the time when consideration was being given to increase the threshold. The primary consideration was that this would be used as an incentive to incentivise homeowners to rent out additional rooms. As it currently stands, the average annual rental income is in the region of \u20ac8,000 to \u20ac9,000 per annum for renting a room. By increasing this, it is hoped that will incentivise people, where they have capacity, to increase that rental room to an additional room. As I said already, this has worked in being a supply measure. When one looks back at the number of people availing of it in 2012 compared with the number of people availing of it now, it has increased from just over 5,000 to in excess of 18,000 claimants. I know it is particularly successful in towns where there are universities. It has been a godsend in Athlone, which I represent, in incentivising people to avail of it. Two years ago, the students' union conducted a very extensive campaign where it leaflet-dropped the whole town, making people aware of the allowance. In that particular year, unlike previous years, it found there were very few left without availing of accommodation because it had been such a success in incentivising people to rent out a room."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Edward Timmins When I saw this first, I thought it was just a licence for a homeowner to increase the rent by \u20ac2,000 overnight but then I spoke to a few people and they said, well if they had two rooms, this may be an incentive to rent out two rooms or three rooms, even. I am still concerned that this could lead a homeowner increasing one room from \u20ac14,000 to \u20ac15,000 or even \u20ac16,000. Is there some angle to look at limiting the amount that can be availed of for one room such as \u20ac16,000 in total for two rooms? For one room, being able to now charge \u20ac16,000 seems fairly excessive."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I am obviously not talking about the wider policy of rent a room; it is a policy I support. I have issues in relation to the fact that they are not tenants and the rights. We will park that for one second. To clarify, the Minister of State has confirmed to the committee that officials within the Department or Revenue raised concern about this policy in relation to the potential impact of increasing rents. Is that correct?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy It was a consideration."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Was it a concern that was raised?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy It was a consideration and it formed part of the discussion as one would expect-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty If I put in a freedom of information request, will I see documentation showing that there was concern raised by officials within the Department or Revenue?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Well, I am told it was a consideration. I do not know whether it was a concern or a consideration. It formed part of the discussion-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Will the Minister of State clarify with his officials? We will seek the documents afterwards."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy I have no problem sharing the information; I am just asking the officials. It was raised as a potential concern, as were other issues considered, but the primary objective was that they felt the benefits would outweigh any of the potential concerns. It is also noted and recognised that this limit has not increased in almost ten years and that the relief was extended to an auxiliary dwelling on the site of a principal private dwelling house. There is an opportunity for people to put an auxiliary dwelling on their premises and to perhaps acknowledge the costs associated with that, the \u20ac16,000 figure was landed on."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty To clarify, did the concern in relation to this policy measure from the Government of pushing up rental costs on tenants emerge from the Department or Revenue officials?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy This was one potential concern. The way-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Sorry, we have established the concern was raised in relation to the formulation of the policy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy There was a potential concern-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Did the concern arise from officials within the Department or within Revenue?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy There was a potential concerned raised by officials within the Department when this was being given consideration. The ultimate consideration was that this would be a supply-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I heard that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Yes but-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I know the Minister of State does not want to say that concerns were raised within the Department-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Please, one person at a time."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty With respect, I know a Minister's position is they never want to say, \"We want to do this, it is a political choice and our officials have raised concern in relation to this that this will push up prices on tenants out there\" but the Minister of State has acknowledged that because the question has been asked. I respect the fact that the Minister of State accurately and honestly given us the answer. I have heard there are other issues in terms of availability and so on."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach The Minister of State has not responded to Deputy Timmins's question, just to make sure."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy I did not for a minute try to conceal that there was a potential concern-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I did not suggest that."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy I know. I did say it was a consideration. I further outlined who raised the potential concern. I just want to make the point that the Government's policy is to increase supply. If we really want to bring down the cost of rents, the only way we are going to bring down the cost of rents is to increase supply. The difficulty and what is pushing up rents over the past number of years is the lack of supply. Every policy measure the Government has taken over the past number of years has been all about increasing supply. We have seen our policy interventions work because supply is up, construction commencements are up, completions are up-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Rents are up, homelessness is up. House prices are up."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy -----albeit not at the rate we want them to be at but they certainly are moving in the right direction. This is a policy lever that has demonstrated the ability to increase supply. In the past ten to 15 years, supply has trebled from just over 5,000 to 18,000. This is the first increase since 2017. The objective is to incentivise people not only to rent one room but to look at potentially renting out more than one room in a house. Deputy Timmins asked if consideration was given to restricting the amount that can be charged per room. It was felt that would be overly cumbersome and could prevent or dissuade people from participating in the scheme. The scheme is easily understood. It was felt this was the best way to move forward, as I said, in a mechanism with an ambition borne out by the fact that it has worked over the past number of years. We have seen supply increase. This is another lever to increase supply even further."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty With the greatest of respect, that is the height of nonsense. The idea that to restrict this or that the higher rate would be applicable to multiple rooms in the same principal private residents is a simple insertion into this finance Bill. We could draft it here within five minutes. You just apply the existing rate and a higher rate where multiple rooms are available. It is not overly cumbersome if one wanted to do this. I want to go back to a couple of technical questions. From when will this higher rate be available? Is it 27 July?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy It is 1 January 2025 for the room and for auxiliary dwellings, it is 27 July 2026."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I think the Minister of State said 2025."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach The Minister of State said 2025, just for clarity."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Sorry; it is 1 January 2027 for-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Is it 1 January?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy To clarify, for auxiliary dwellings, the existing rate can be claimed from 27 July 2026. The increased rate from \u20ac14,000 to \u20ac16,000 for all comes into effect on 1 January 2027. Sorry, I did say 2025 but it is 1 January 2027."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Apologies. For clarification, was the Minister of State's initial one there supposed to be for July 2026, so it is backdated, or did he mean 2027? I just want full clarity."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy It is because the exemptions came in, I assume, for auxiliary dwellings on 27 July 2026. That is the reason why. It aligns with the date the building regulations exemptions came in for auxiliary dwellings, but the limit increases on 1 January 2027. To be clear, for auxiliary dwellings from 27 July 2026 to 31 December 2026, the limit is \u20ac14,000. The limit increases for both rent-a-room and auxiliary dwellings from 1 January 2027. Sorry for any confusion."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty We are dealing with section 16. The Minister of State's officials may keep me right on this. Section 16(e) states that \"'qualifying residence' shall not operate so as to restrict or reduce any entitlement to relief under section 473C or 604.\" Section 473C of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997 covers mortgage interest relief. Is that correct?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Yes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Okay, so why is that in there? The Government has made the appalling decision not to extend mortgage interest relief beyond 31 December of this year. If this benefit does not apply until 1 January of next year anyway - post the availability of mortgage interest relief - I ask for clarity on the necessity for the sentence I quoted."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy We will be bringing in an amendment on Report Stage, but the Deputy is right about auxiliary dwellings and the capital appreciation. I will just get the exact wording here. The Bill provides that the granting of relief in respect of incomes from renting a room or rooms in the main residence, but not an auxiliary dwelling, does not affect the individual's entitlement to principal private residence relief from capital gains tax or, where applicable, mortgage interest relief. If a gain arises on disposal of the principal private relief where the property has an auxiliary dwelling, the portion of that gain attributable to the main dwelling will continue to qualify for principal private residence relief. I will be bringing an amendment on Report Stage to clarify the wording of this."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty That might be helpful, because from my reading of this, the definition of a qualifying residence as it applies in this section will not restrict the availability of mortgage interest relief for a person's primary residence. However, unless this is a retrospective issue, the increase in this section only applies from 1 January and, unfortunately, the Government has made a decision that nobody will get mortgage interest relief from 1 January onwards."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Will the Deputy say that again?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty The increased threshold for the rent-a-room scheme will only apply from 1 January of next year."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Yes, that is correct."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Mortgage interest relief will not be available to anybody from 1 January of next year, according to the Government's decision, which is the wrong decision. Is that correct as well?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Mortgage interest relief is available for 2026, over 2022, on detached auxiliary dwellings eligible for construction, from 27 July 2026, so it is that small window."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Explain that to me. If someone was building a shed in their back garden that they wanted to put somebody in, the Minister of State is saying they will get mortgage interest relief on it despite the fact that it did not exist in 2022 and mortgage interest relief has to reflect the difference between the interest being paid on a mortgage today compared with the interest on the reference date. Is that correct?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy No, it is to clarify that you cannot get mortgage interest relief on a detached auxiliary dwelling and the fact that the detached auxiliary dwelling could have been in place from 27 July 2026 and mortgage interest relief was available to the end of 2026. There is a small window where potentially somebody could have looked to qualify for it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty The section refers to a qualifying residence, which is the primary-purpose residence, plus the detached-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy That is why we are bringing a technical amendment on Report Stage to clarify it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Okay, so it is written incorrectly."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Yes. It is a small window potentially, but we will clarify that on Report Stage."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Okay, we will leave that one there. The Minister of State gave us the average figure for how much rent people are paying on rent-a-room, which I think was in excess of \u20ac8,000. Does he have the data available on how many rooms are being charged at the level of \u20ac14,000?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy I do not but I will get the figure and come back to the Deputy with it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Will the Minister of State clarify for the committee that under the existing scheme rooms are being charged at \u20ac14,000?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy I cannot say for certain, so I have asked Revenue to get the data. I will not comment without the data, but we will get it and bring it back to the Deputy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Is the Government concerned at all? It does not seem to be looking for this. Is there any way that the Department will be able to monitor the impact of this policy decision by the Government to find out if the concerns raised by departmental officials, that it will push up rents, will transpire?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy It is possible to track because the figure charged for the rent has to be declared annually."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Will that be reported on? How often will Revenue give us that information?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy I do not know but I will ask and get back to the Deputy on it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty For clarity purposes here, if we put down parliamentary questions or write to Revenue asking how many homes or sheds, or whatever they are, were availing of the rent-a-room scheme and have increased their rent over the last year and by how much, without identifying any taxpayer unit, it will be able to collate that data and provide it in a way that does not present any tax confidentiality issues. Is that the case?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy That can be done over time. The return for 2027, when the ceiling increase will come in, will not be available until the end of 2028, but that data in aggregate form is available. I have confirmed to the Deputy that we have asked Revenue to provide the data on how much is being charged per room."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I am very opposed to this section. The fact that it allows for these ancillary units to be made available for rent, which was never the intention, and to charge up to \u20ac16,000 tax free is a serious issue. There are also issues relating to standards and so on. We will see the data on how many people are being charged different levels of rent. Currently, you are allowed to charge up to \u20ac14,000 in rent tax free. Will the Minister of State be shocked if he discovers that the rate for some rooms increases from \u20ac14,000 to \u20ac16,000? What will he say to that when he sees the data that will emerge as a result of this Finance Bill? The sum of \u20ac1,166 tax-free was not enough. As a colleague on this committee said, if this was a different landlord, they would have to charge well over \u20ac2,000 to obtain that net income. Will the Minister of State be shocked if some property owners decide to avail of the gift the Government is giving them and push rents up by \u20ac2,000 to \u20ac16,000?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy I will make a number of points. The first is that they are not sheds. All of these are extremely high-quality auxiliary dwellings. They are a mechanism that will increase supply. The Deputy is not the only person who wants to see rents fall. Rents are historically high. The reason for that is lack of supply. Many people in my constituency are living in oversized private dwellings and are deciding to downsize within the curtilage of their dwellings. What is proposed offers an opportunity to people in houses on generous sites, because there are minimum requirements for the size of sites where these auxiliary dwellings may be located to ensure that we maintain adequate open space. The Deputy paints a picture whereby there is no regulation and that the units are substandard in nature, but that is factually incorrect. On increasing the ceiling from \u20ac14,000 to \u20ac16,000, there has not been an increase in over ten years. I have given an undertaking that when Revenue has supplied the data on the cost per room, we will see, a full year after the new ceilings are introduced, whether that has had an impact on the cost of individual rents. What we want to see happening is increased supply. That has been the sole focus and the priority concern in increasing the thresholds."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Deputy Timmins asked the question I was going to ask. Why not restrict the higher threshold for multiple rooms? That guarantees increased supply. There is absolutely nothing in this section which suggests that increased supply, and that is the problem. The Government is not guaranteeing it. I am going to ask the question again. Will the Minister of State be shocked if there are increases? By then it will be too late. The Act will be in effect and it will be a year on. Will he be shocked to find out some people have charged \u20ac16,000 for a single room? The Minister of State knows the market. Does he believe that it is justifiable to charge over the current threshold of \u20ac1,166 for a single room in a house anywhere in this State? Does he believe there is any justification for people charging more than that? It is tax-free."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy We know the average rent-a-room scheme rate is between \u20ac8,000 and \u20ac9,000 currently."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty The Minister of State knows what averages mean."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Yes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty That means there are people charging \u20ac14,000. Why increase it beyond \u20ac14,000 if it was not an issue? The Government is definitely not stipulating that people must make a second room available. It has decided against that. The question is whether it is the Government's view that there is anywhere in this State where it is justifiable for a single room to be rented at a charge of \u20ac1,166 per month tax-free."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy I will take away what the Deputy has said and look at whether it is possible to bring in a provision for multiple rooms, because that is the objective of this policy change. It is to incentivise families who have capacity within their principal dwelling-house to rent out additional rooms. This is not being done to jack up the rent for individual rooms; it is a supply measure. I will take away what the Deputy has said and see whether it is possible to bring forward an amendment on Report Stage."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty That is fair enough."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Before we move on to section 17, I will allow an Teachta Timmins to speak out of sequence on amendment No. 13. The amendment in question, which is an amendment to section 17, is out of order but I will allow him to address it briefly. As an Teachta Timmins will be chairing the next session after the sos, it makes more sense to allow him to do so at this point. After the sos, we will resume with amendment No. 12 and then section 17 itself."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Edward Timmins This amendment concerns to the help to buy scheme. One of the qualifications for the scheme is that you have to have a loan of 70% of the value of the property you buy. I have come across difficult anomalies for people who are low earners. I will give the Minister of State an example that is probably the best way of illustrating it. It is a very complex area. I dealt with a young couple and the maximum loan they could get for building a self-build house in a rural part of west Wicklow - there are a few cases like this - was \u20ac304,000, based on four times their income. That demonstrates that they are not big earners. We can calculate, based on a loan of four times their joint income, that they have an income of just over \u20ac70,000 between them. This was the maximum loan they could get, so they were scrimping and saving. When they went to get the house valued, the auctioneer valued it at \u20ac450,000. They got the site because it was next door to their parents. The auctioneer would not value it at any less than that. We can calculate that \u20ac305,000 is about 67% of \u20ac450,000. If you were to reach 70%, you would have to borrow \u20ac315,000. They could not borrow this amount because their income was too low. In the case of self-builds like this, where the site does not cost them anything, it would be worth considering an amendment to ensure such people, who are low earners, would not be excluded from the help to buy scheme. That is why I propose a decrease to 60%. I have seen cases in which people who were between 60% and 70% were excluded. In quite a few of these examples, they were cases of self-builds and their incomes were too low to get the loan."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I am going to let the Minister of State in at this point. We have approximately five minutes and then we will go for the sos. An Teachta Timmins will then be chairing and we will return to amendment No. 12."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Deputy Timmins's amendment seeks to lower the-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach The amendment has been ruled out of order. I have allowed an Teachta Timmins to speak on it now because he will be chairing the select committee later when we discuss the section as a whole."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy I will respond to the contribution Deputy Timmins has just made on the Bill. He is talking about changing the loan-to-value ratio under the help to buy scheme from 70% to 60%."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Edward Timmins Just for self-build."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Yes, and that is to take account of the site cost. In certain instances, a family member, such as the son or daughter of a farmer, gets a site free of charge. As a representative of a rural area, the Deputy will know that this is not always the case. In many instances, a local person will buy a site off a local farmer or landowner where there is a cost associated with that anyway. The proportion of help to buy scheme claims in the lower loan-to-value bands is greater for self-builds than for purchased homes. Self-builds account for about a quarter of all claims but over 40% of all claims in the loan-to-value band between 70% and 85%. What is borne out by the data here is that a very high percentage of self-builds are coming in at the higher loan-to-value band of 70% to 85%. I accept the Deputy is probably speaking to a small number of cases. A significant feature of financing for self-build properties is that the value of the land on which the house is built is included in the property value for mortgage loan-to-value purposes. This is in accordance with the Central Bank's macroprudential rules, which stipulate that the valuation should include the site value. The objective of the help to buy scheme is to stimulate the housing market at the entry level and not to provide supports to individuals who are seeking houses at the upper end of the market. One condition of the help to buy scheme is that a qualifying first-time purchaser must take out a loan in the amount equal to at least 70% of the purchase value of the property. At the time of its introduction, the help to buy scheme was initially intended to be limited to persons who had mortgages with a minimum loan-to-value ratio of 80%. However, Central Bank data indicated that a sizeable number of first-time owners take out a mortgage with a loan-to-value ratio of 80%. As such, it was decided to amend the scheme to set the minimum loan-to-value ratio at 70% to ensure first-time buyers or self-builders did not feel compelled to borrow larger amounts than they would otherwise have borrowed in order to qualify for the scheme. The Central Bank macroprudential rules also limit mortgage borrowing to protect borrowers. A number of reviews of the help to buy scheme have been undertaken focusing on a range of broad issues, including the loan-to-value ratio. Individuals who are in a position to avail of a mortgage with a loan-to-value ratio of lower than 70%, whether they already own the site or not, are considered to have sufficient resources to meet the deposit requirements of the macroprudential rules and, thus, are less in need of assistance from the Exchequer. Lowering the loan-to-value ceiling would only increase deadweight in the scheme. It would not be equitable to allow for different eligibility criteria with regard to loan-to-value ratios in respect of self-build properties as against those that apply to all other builds."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Edward Timmins I thank the Minister of State for his response. I will not dwell on it but the whole point that some of that answer misses is that this proposal seeks to assist people on low incomes. That is all."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an Teachta. We can continue that conversation as well when we come back from the sos. I am happy to jump into the Chair or whatever may be. We will suspend now until 7 p.m. To be clear, we will start with amendment No. 12 and then we will discuss section 17 as a whole. We have discussed amendment No. 13 out of sequence to accommodate an Teachta Timmins."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an su\u00ed ar fionra\u00ed ar 5.59 p.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 7.01 p.m."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sitting suspended at 5.59 p.m. and resumed at 7.01 p.m."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Ghlac an Teachta Edward Timmins an Chathaoir."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Deputy Edward Timmins took the Chair."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Chathaoirleach We are moving back to amendment No. 12 to section 17 in the name of Deputies Doherty and Farrell."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Have we disposed of section 17, for clarity?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Chathaoirleach No."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Will we deal with section 17 after these amendments?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Chathaoirleach Amendment No. 12 is a part of section 17."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Okay."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Chathaoirleach I have already spoken on amendment No. 13. We went ahead to facilitate discussion of amendment No. 13. We are now going back to amendment No. 12."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Is amendment No. 12 grouped with any other amendment? It is not."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Chathaoirleach No."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"NEW SECTION"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I move amendment No. 12: In page 20, between lines 27 and 28, to insert the following: \u201c Report on rent-a-room relief 17 . The Minister shall, within one year of the passing of this Act, prepare and lay before D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann a report on the share of landlords that increase the rent as a result of the new higher rate of the relief.\u201d. This amendment seeks a report to be laid before the D\u00e1il on the share of landlords who increased the rent as a result of the new higher rate of relief, as we discussed earlier in the context of section 16, which increases the threshold from \u20ac14,000 to \u20ac16,000. It is important that we have the evidence presented in a coherent way without us having to submit parliamentary questions and look for the Revenue Commissioners to collate the data in the way required. The data is available, as the Minister of State has acknowledged. I am now asking that he agrees to produce a report within a year of the passing of the Act to show the share of landlords who increased the rent as a result of the new higher rate of relief, which is to increase from \u20ac14,000."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy The policy objective underpinning the extension of rent-a-room relief to include income from renting a room or rooms in an \"auxiliary dwelling\" is to alleviate existing housing pressures by increasing the supply of rented residential accommodation. The increase of the annual limit on exempt income under the rent-a-room relief to \u20ac16,000 operates in the same manner, by incentivising additional participation in the scheme and thereby increasing the supply of rented residential accommodation. Increased supply is key to moderating rental inflation across the whole market. The rent-a-room rental income ceiling was last increased in 2017. This section of the Bill increases that rental income ceiling from \u20ac14,000 to \u20ac16,000 from 1 January 2027, an increase of some 14% over the 2017 level. This is a modest increase over such a long period of time. The intention is to provide an additional incentive to those homeowners who are in a position to increase the number of tenants they can accommodate, perhaps from one to two or from two to three, without risking crossing the rental income ceiling. In 2024, 18,180 landlords claimed rent-a-room relief with an associated tax cost of some \u20ac47 million. Assuming these claimants paid an average income tax rate of 30%, this would suggest that the typical rental income received by a homeowner is of the order of \u20ac8,000 to \u20ac9,000 per annum, rather than a figure close to the rental income ceiling. The proposed increase would provide sufficient headroom to cause an increase in the number of tenants in their home than simply an increase in the rent from existing tenants. The Deputy may recall that the scheme was amended in the Finance Act 2018 to clarify that week-day lodging, or \"digs\", for part of the year, including the academic year, is within the scope of the relief. This increase in the ceiling may be of particular benefit to third level students by incentivising homeowners to increase the supply of affordable accommodation for that sector. Increased supply for students arising from the rent-a-room scheme will tend to free up other rental accommodation for more permanent tenants. For the reasons outlined, I do not propose to accept the amendment. I wish to advise the committee that I may bring an amendment on Report Stage to clarify the provisions which relate to the continuation of principal private residence relief for the main house in the case of rent-a-room relief being claimed in respect of the use of an auxiliary dwelling, which is a matter I clarified earlier."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell As I was chairing earlier, I was unable to come in on this point. This is an issue that I feel strongly about. Before the budget, the soundings or rumours in the media were that this was going to be linked to a certain number of rooms, rather than simply one. The media reported that the threshold would be \u20ac20,000, but you would have to be renting out multiple rooms, going forward. I listened to the discussion earlier and understand what the Minister of State said about the average rent. However, I am deeply concerned that this is going to simply have the knock-on effect of increasing the amount of rent that people can charge, or will be charging, under the scheme. The Minister of State might be aware that I brought forward legislation specifically on room protections and basic protections for people under the rent-a-room scheme. That was for both the people renting and the person renting out the room. One member here had been talking about older people renting out a room in a larger house. That is realistically what this is designed to do. That increase has passed on to Committee Stage, but has not been enacted. That could have been mentioned during the speeches on budget day. There is obviously that concern but it is not a matter for the Finance Bill. It should have been spoken about on budget day. Separately, the core of the issue is that we have rising rents and that many people are in increasing difficulty, as we discussed earlier when the T\u00e1naiste was here. People are unable to afford their rents. Of course we need more accommodation coming on stream. I understand that is what the Minister of State has said the Government wants to do with this specific proposal. However, it does not guarantee that, which is a concern. The only thing it guarantees is that the tax-free threshold increases. The obvious concern that anyone would have is that the increase will be passed on to the person who is renting the room at a time when it is very difficult to afford rent for the vast majority of people who are trying to make ends meet. To be honest, I would like the Minister of State to reconsider the amendment."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy I thank the Deputy. The amendment calls for a report or review to be conducted."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell A report. That is the way it works with these amendments. It is that we have to do reports. The Minister of State can obviously still bring in his own amendment to that effect."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy The amendment calls for a report within 12 months of the passing of the Act."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell That is because that is the structure of these amendments."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy The point I am making is that data will not be available until 2029 if there is any increase because people are not required to do their 2027 returns until the end of 2028. The data will not be available until 2029. Again-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell The only thing is that if the Government took my legislation, it would have data. If it were to enact the legislation I put forward-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Am I going to be allowed-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell -----a number of years ago, it would have the data."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy I did not interrupt the Deputy once, to be fair."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell That is fair."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy I am just making the point that the data will not be available until 2029 if there is an increase in the threshold. This is a supply measure. As the Deputy will be aware because she was in the Chair at the time, I also made the point to Deputy Doherty that I have no objection to reviewing inserting a clause specifying that the increased amount is for multiple rooms. The Government's policy intention is to increase supply. It is not about increasing rent for people who are paying rent. Increased supply is key to moderating rental inflation across the whole market. The data we have strongly shows that the tax credit that is available has worked. Between 2012 and 2024, the number of people participating more than trebled. It was in excess of 5,000 in 2012 and was 18,180 landlords in 2024. The objective here relates to people who may have additional capacity within their rooms. There is a cliff edge in this. If you go \u20ac1 over the threshold, the whole amount is liable for tax. That is the reason the figure was increased to \u20ac16,000. We recognised that there had been no increase since 2017. The primary consideration is the objective of increasing supply. Before we took the most recent break, I gave a commitment to see whether it would be possible to insert a clause specifying that this would be for multiple rooms. I would like to think it is. I hope it is. If it is, it is something we can look at introducing on Report Stage."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell If that does come about, the Minister of State will deserve the credit because this is something that should have been considered at the time. This is something that was probably brought in by another Minister. It is extremely important and something that we will be looking very closely at on the next Stage. If that change was made, we would be talking about a totally different situation from the one we are talking about now. If the provision stays the way it is, it will be really concerning because it could do the opposite of what the Minister of State intends. Perhaps another Minister has a different intention but obviously that other Minister is not here to discuss that. We will see what that Minister decides."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment No. 13 not moved."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 17"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question proposed: \"That section 17 stand part of the Bill.\""},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Section 17 relates to the help to buy scheme. This is an interesting one because the Minister for Finance made it very clear that he was not going this direction. He said that the worst thing you can do to try to help somebody who is trying to buy a house is to accidentally push up house prices. That is what he said in response to the idea of increasing the level of help to buy scheme support. He then buckled to pressure from the Minister of State's party and, lo and behold, we now have another increase in the help to buy scheme. There are people out there who are desperate to get a home. If they are offered \u20ac35,000, of course they are going to take it because they know-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Chathaoirleach I apologise, Deputy Doherty. It has just come to my attention that we are discussing section 18. Excuse me, the clerk has said it is section 17."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty That is fine. As I said, there are people out there who are desperate, so if the State says, \"Here is \u20ac35,000 to help you buy a house\", of course they will grab it with both hands because they see in the housing market that house prices are at runaway levels. The types of measures the Government has introduced over the past number of years have fuelled price increases. When the Government makes things worse by creating the fire and fuelling the flames and then hands people a little bucket of water, they will take it, even though they know that, in itself, it will not undo the damage the Government has caused in relation to house prices. Here the Government goes again with another measure that will fuel property inflation, one that contains significant deadweight and is a demand-side subsidy. This is happening at the same time that Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael decided not to provide a single euro in additional expenditure to build social, affordable or cost-rental homes. Not one additional euro was provided in the budget, yet we have here a demand-side measure that is part of a trick in that it tries to suggest the Government is doing something, while knowing fine well that demand-side subsidies drive up house prices. It is as simple as that. To deny that is to ignore the overwhelming consensus among economists, and it is to deny the basic cause and effect. I hope the Minister of State does not try to deny that is the case. The Government continues to present this as a measure to help first-time buyers, whereas in reality it is chasing rising prices with even larger subsidies. House prices increased by \u20ac25,000 on average last year and by \u20ac25,000 the year before that. Two years ago, Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael fought the election and ended up in a position to form a Government. Since then, house prices have gone up by \u20ac50,000. I would hate to be in the position of a young couple trying to set out in life, scrimping and saving in the midst of a cost-of-living crisis and paying extortionate rent, which, as we discussed earlier, could be up to \u20ac1,800 per month for a wee room in an apartment here in the city, and trying everything to make things work and get a home for themselves as they start out on their future. They then see what is happening under Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael, with house prices increasing on average by \u20ac50,000 in the space of 24 months. The problem is that the increase is not likely to stop there, but is likely to continue. The Government then comes along with an extra \u20ac5,000 under the help to buy scheme as if that is going to fix it. It is not. People are not stupid. They know, and all the economists will tell us, that these demand-side measures will fuel house prices, and that is exactly what is happening. We also need to look at what others have been saying in relation to the help to buy scheme. We know it is a very costly measure. When it was reviewed in 2022 Mazars concluded that there was weakness in the scheme and it could not be concluded that it was sufficiently efficient to represent good value for money. It suggested that this tax expenditure was not the appropriate mechanism and recommended phasing out the scheme while introducing a new and more targeted incentive. That suggestion was ignored. We know the help to buy scheme costs in excess of \u20ac250 million. We also know that the independent Parliamentary Budget Office said the following about it: ... it is important to note that this scheme is poorly targeted. Upon receiving Help to Buy, 25% of recipients had a Loan-to-Value ratio of less than 80%, and a further 35% had a Loan-to-Value ratio of between 80 and 90%. As such, all those recipients did not need Help to Buy to meet the 10% deposit requirement and could instead use the scheme to create larger deposits. This increased the purchasing power of first-time buyers, which helps fuel property inflation and means this is a deadweight loss, i.e., facilitating transactions that would have taken place even if the scheme wasn\u2019t in place. As I said, nobody is going to reject the idea that they will be given \u20ac35,000, but there is a responsibility on policymakers to make sure that we look at the impact this is having. Let us not pretend to ourselves. Giving people an extra \u20ac5,000 when house prices are going up by \u20ac25,000 a year, thereby putting houses out of the reach of so many families, is just crazy. It is madness. I do not know where the Minister of State thinks this is going to stop. Maybe he could tell me. If house prices keep increasing at this rate, by the time the current Government is out of office - and God help us, we need to get that done sooner than in three years' time - average house prices will have increased by \u20ac125,000 since the Government took office just two years ago. That is crazy stuff; it is mental. A number of years ago, people could buy houses in my constituency for a little bit more than that increase, yet that is the type of increase we are seeing under Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael. The Government keeps on repeating the same type of measure that allows it to say it is doing something, even though experts who have analysed this scheme are saying it is pushing up house prices, is a demand-side measure and has significant deadweight. The majority of people who use the scheme do not need it for a deposit to purchase their home. What it does is it provides them with greater purchasing power, which has the effect of pushing house prices. That is exactly what has happened. Sometimes I wonder if I am being naive here. Is this what the Government is planning to do? We have always known that the Government parties, Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael, are there for the developers, landlords and speculators. They do not make any bones about it. It is in black and white in this Finance Bill, in which the Government has made its priorities very clear, but could they be so blatant as to introduce measures that they know are going to push up house prices? As with the previous section, it is a measure that the Government knows is going to push up rents because it benefits the interests the Minister of State's party serves. It is either that or the Government is just seriously naive or stupid because that is exactly what is happening here. These are the wrong measures. They are the wrong thing to do. The Government should have increased the amount of capital available to build social, affordable and cost-rental homes at the scale required to meet the scale of the crisis. That is what should have been happening, not more demand-side, short-term measures with significant deadweight that will end up pushing up house prices. This measure was introduced by Michael Noonan in response to the Central Bank when it came out with lending criteria aimed at making sure the mistakes of the past were not repeated. It restricted the amount of lending that could be available to 90% of the value. In response, the help to buy scheme was introduced to try to bridge and overcome what the Central Bank had done by providing a 5% deposit to individuals. What the evidence shows is that the majority of people who are buying from the scheme do not need support for their deposit. There are no ifs, buts or maybes about it. That is a fact. This scheme is costing in excess of \u20ac250 million a year. The deadweight in it is something like 60%, so it is costing us well over \u20ac150 million. There are so many pressures elsewhere for which this money could be invested. It should be used to build affordable homes and help people to get a home. I will leave it at that. The Government's proposal again misses the issue completely. It is perhaps a comfort blanket for Fianna F\u00e1il to try to pretend it is doing something when the evidence, in black and white, is staring it in the face. Surely the Minister of State can acknowledge that the Government's housing policy is failing when house prices are increasing at this rate, or maybe that is what the Government wants."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy I thank Deputy Doherty. There is a fundamental difference in policy between the Government and the Opposition on this. That is well documented, well argued and well debated over many months and years in this Chamber and in the D\u00e1il itself. Government policy is all about increasing supply because the only way to bring down the cost of houses is to increase the supply. The Indecon report found that the main driver of house price increases was the mismatch between supply and demand. Increased supply is central to increasing the affordability of housing. Through Delivering Homes, Building Communities, the Government will continue to drive housing delivery. The help to buy scheme is just one part of this multifaceted approach to increasing the supply of new houses. Commencement figures and completion figures are up, so supply is up. We want to get it up even further. Across all sectors, house price inflation has continued to ease. I do not accept the argument that the help to buy scheme is a significant driver of inflation. As I have said, the primary cause of rising house prices is the mismatch between supply and demand in the market. We have also seen extraordinarily high construction costs in the last number of years. It is not about any one intervention. The 2022 independent review conducted by Mazars found that there is no definitive evidence that the help to buy scheme pushed up the prices of new houses. The review noted that new builds have a large and growing premium over the price of existing houses but that this also existed before the scheme was introduced. The review also found that the prices paid for new homes by people who receive help to buy relief were slightly lower than new house prices in the economy in general. The help to buy scheme is specifically designed to encourage the construction of additional supply of such properties. The Central Bank analysis found that the help to buy scheme's uptake closely aligns with new geographical roll-out of estate housing, particularly across Dublin, in the commuter belt of Meath, Kildare and Wicklow, and in Cork. It incentivises the construction of medium-density starter homes tailored specifically to fit within the \u20ac300,000 to \u20ac500,000 price bracket. Restricting the scheme solely to new dwellings and new self-builds with a maximum value of \u20ac500,000 results in increased demand for affordable new homes, which has encouraged the construction of additional supply of such properties and will continue to do so. For that reason, I do not propose to accept the Deputy's amendment."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Chathaoirleach Does anyone wish to speak to section 18?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Just on the professional services withholding tax, the tax strategy papers noted potential compliance benefits from applying withholding taxes to platform operators. Why did the Department ultimately decide not to proceed with this approach and to what extent was that decision influenced by representations from the platforms themselves?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Chathaoirleach This does not look right-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Did we deal with the amendment?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Chathaoirleach Apologies, we must deal with the Deputy's amendment first."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"NEW SECTION"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I move amendment No. 14: In page 21, between lines 6 and 7, to insert the following: \u201cReport on help to buy impact on house prices 18. The Minister shall, within three months of the passing of this Act, prepare and lay before D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann a report on the inflationary impact of help to buy on house prices.\u201d."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 18"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question proposed: \"That section 18 stand part of the Bill\"."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty The section deals with professional services withholding tax. I have made the point in the past in relation to considering an assessment of extending the withholding tax to larger, private sector purchases for professional services, similar to the existing arrangement for public bodies. There would be benefits to that but the question I have today primarily relates to the tax strategy papers. Those papers noted the potential compliance benefits from applying withholding taxes to platform operators. Why did the Department decide not to proceed with this approach and to what extent was that decision influenced by representations from the platforms themselves?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy This is arising out of a public consultation that was conducted in relation to expanding the bodies that are included under the withholding tax. Having considered the public consultation, four additional bodies were included. These were the Assisted Human Reproduction-----"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(Interruptions)."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy My apologies; I am looking at the wrong section."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I am happy for a note to be circulated to the committee on that before Report Stage, if that is helpful."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy That would be helpful, yes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Chathaoirleach Given that the voting block has been signalled in the D\u00e1il, this might be an appropriate time to suspend the meeting."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Perhaps we should deal with the section first?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Chathaoirleach Does the Deputy not want to wait for a response from the Minister of State?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I am happy for a note to be circulated."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Chathaoirleach Is that okay, Minister of State? Will we leave it that a note will be circulated, based on the question?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Yes."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 19"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question proposed: \"That section 19 stand part of the Bill\"."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I have one very brief question on this section. I ask the Minister of State to confirm that no survivors have faced any tax liability relating to phase 2 yet. I assume they have not."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Could the Deputy repeat that, please?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I seek confirmation that, in terms of the ex gratia payment, no survivors have faced any tax liability relating to phase 2 of the scheme. I presume that has not been the case."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Payments are being processed by the Department of justice and no taxation deductions have been made."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I thank the Minister of State"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an su\u00ed ar fionra\u00ed ar 7.48 p.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 8.32 p.m.."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sitting suspended at 7.48 p.m. and resumed at 8.32 p.m."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Ghlac an Teachta Mair\u00e9ad Farrell an Chathaoir ar\u00eds."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell resumed the Chair."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 20 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 21"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question proposed: \"That section 21 stand part of the Bill\"."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I have no objections to section 21 in terms of the increase of the available exemption from \u20ac400 to \u20ac600. I understand the measure is to cost in the region of \u20ac1 million. Is that correct? Is that the proper number?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Yes."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I am interested to know what the assumptions underlining this are and how it is costing \u20ac1 million. How was that calculation arrived at? The Department of Finance estimated the annual cost of a full-year extension of this provision, which was due to expire at the end of 2025 and budget 2026 extended it to 2028, would be \u20ac10 million. I do not understand how a scheme could cost \u20ac10 million where the value of it is \u20ac400, and then increasing it to \u20ac600 only costs an additional \u20ac1 million."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy It is estimated the average homeowner receives approximately \u20ac160 per year for selling electricity to the grid. Microgeneration payments can vary significantly based on the number of variables, including, for example, the size of the solar panel system installed. However, there may be other cases receiving higher amounts, most likely those with larger homes or additional capacity for solar panels. As such, it is estimated that cost associated with the increase in the exemption threshold per annum will cost in the region of \u20ac1 million, taking into account the fact the estimated total cost of the scheme will be in the region of \u20ac10 million. A large proportion are not reaching the \u20ac400 at present because the average homeowner receives \u20ac160 per year. Not everybody receiving it is going to benefit from the additional \u20ac200. A significant proportion are not even getting the \u20ac400, so that is where the extra \u20ac1 million comes in."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Okay. Before Report Stage, the Minister of State might provide a wee note on the number of people availing of this, as well as the number of those who are able to take up the \u20ac400 level. This would give an idea of how many people will benefit from the increase."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy We will give a note on the data available to us."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 22 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 23"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question proposed: \"That section 23 stand part of the Bill\"."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I am curious about the metrics the Department is using to measure the effectiveness of this measure. Obviously, I have no objection to increasing the succession farm partnership, SFP, tax credit from \u20ac5000 to \u20ac10,000. However, how is Government going to assess whether it is successfully improving generational renewal in Irish farming? Does the Minister of State have an estimate of the number of additional farm transfers this measure will facilitate?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Would-be applicants will be aware of the amendments since the budget was announced on Tuesday, 6 October. The removal of the three-year holding requirement is valid for applications made from 1 January next year or later, while the increased tax credit is only available for those applications registered under the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine register of succession farm partnerships on or after 1 January 2027. The first tax return under the new terms of the scheme will be filed for the 2027 tax year in 2028 and the number of claims on the cost will not be available to Revenue until mid-2029. It will therefore be a few years before we are able to assess what impact the proposed changes have made."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Does the Minister of State have an estimation of how many farms this will assist?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy I will ask for a note from the Department of agriculture because it is the Department that is pursuing this-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty That is fine."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy -----recommending this be done, and that it would have a positive impact on farm succession. I do not have any data to hand, but I will ask the Department. Farm succession is a complex area with various factors at play, but it is thought that the take-up of the SFP has been low due to the strict asset transfer rules, farm viability concerns, tax and age limits and emotional or family barriers. However, I will go back to the Department of agriculture specifically to see if it has any targeted figures on how many it feels may avail of this scheme through negotiations with the IFA or whoever."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Perfect, thank you."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 24"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question proposed: \"That section 24 stand part of the Bill\"."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Section 24 relates to fixed-dividend preference shares. I understand the necessity for the amendment as the reference in the tax code no longer exists. It is obviously a complex area and I will start by asking the Minister of State to put on record his note on the section so that it is there for future reference. I will then ask a couple of questions on the back of it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy This section amends sections 131, 138, 174, 413, 705C and 752 of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997. These six provisions relate to a number of different topics, including the tax treatment of distributions, corporation tax group relief, real estate investment trusts and certain anti-avoidance measures to prevent dividend stripping by companies. These provisions currently contain various definitions of \"preference shares\" that utilise fixed-dividend shares that are admitted to trading on a stock exchange in the State as a benchmark in order to grant certain tax treatment to unlisted preference shares. Currently, no such shares are traded on a stock exchange in the State and, as a result, the sections cannot operate as intended. I am, therefore, proposing to amend the relevant definition of \"preference shares\" in the sections to allow them to operate by reference to fixed-dividend shares that are admitted to trading on a regulated market in a member state of the EEA. This will widen the scope of fixed-dividend shares that can be used as a benchmark by taxpayers and will ensure the various provisions can continue to operate as intended. I also propose to make an amendment to section 572 to correct a technical error identified in relation to the definition of shares of a class to which this section applies to ensure the section operates as intended."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I understand the necessity for this because our tax code references fixed-dividend shares on the Irish Stock Exchange that do not exist and, therefore, it cannot work. That is fine. There is a requirement to ensure there is a benchmark so there is not a benefit accruing that should not accrue. The issue is that we are allowing the benchmark to be from any foreign EEA regulated market. Is this the case?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Yes, in the EU regulated market."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty The regulated markets in the EU are different. They work under different economic conditions, different interest rate environments and local corporate laws. There are various contexts as opposed to one. Individuals with a company shares benefit can choose whichever regulated market would best benefit them. Is this correct? Prior to this it was more rigid. It was on the Irish Stock Exchange and it was fair. It was an unmanipulated benchmark for an Irish owned or managed firm without creating any other issue. Now we have a situation whereby we could have companies benchmark shopping as a result of this amendment. Does the Minister of State believe that every market is the same?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy All regulated markets in the EU and EEA, including those in Ireland, are subject to the same regulatory framework under the second markets in financial instruments directive, MiFID II. As a result, shares admitted to trading on these markets are subject to equivalent regulatory transparency and disclosure requirements, meaning there is no material increase in risk from broadening the benchmark beyond the Irish market. EU and EEA regulated markets are subject to established regulatory and disclosure requirements, which provide an appropriate level of assurance regarding the reliability of market information. Allowing the benchmark to operate by reference to shares admitted to trading on a regulated market within the EU or EEA provides access to a wider and sufficiently comparable market while maintaining an objective and transparent basis for comparison."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty That is fair enough as we are all part of the EU regulated market. However, how many times do we look at different financial providers and see they are located in Malta? Why does the Minister of State think they all go to Malta? There are differences between the markets even though they fall under the same set of regulations. What safeguards will Revenue put in place to ensure that multinational corporations do not go benchmark shopping and do not deliberately pick obscure, high risk or outlier preferred shares listed on a European exchange to justify an artificial, tax free, intragroup financing set-up in Ireland? Prior to this we had one, which was the Irish Stock Exchange, but now companies can go and take their pick."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy The benchmark would not allow someone to pick an unusual share to act as a comparator. The provision envisages that the comparison would be done to a comparable average share. I understand this would prevent what Deputy Doherty is speaking about with regard to cherry-picking."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty A company benchmarking against a foreign EEA regulated market will have a possible impact on the taxable amount in terms of any intragroup financing it is involved in. Is the Minister of State telling the committee there will be no difference for such a company in terms of which market it chooses to benchmark against in the future? Is he saying there will be no difference to the company in terms of its tax liability whether it chooses one regulated EEA market over another? Is this the contention of the Minister, the Department or Revenue officials?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy To refer to what is in the legislation, section 24(d) states: (d) in section 413\u2014 (i) in subsection (1), in the definition of \"fixed-rate preference shares\", by the substitution of the following paragraph for paragraph (d): \"(d) on repayment do not carry any rights to an amount exceeding the new consideration received by the company in respect of the issue of the shares except in so far as those rights are reasonably comparable with those general for fixed-dividend shares admitted to trading on a regulated market in an EEA State.\", My understanding is that a company cannot pick an outlier. It has to pick what is comparable and what is normal to what has been traded."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I am not talking about picking an outlier share; that is not what I am talking about. What I am talking about is that up until now companies had to pick the share in the Irish stock market. This does not exist so, therefore, they cannot pick it and we understand this. Now companies have a whole selection in numerous markets from which they can pick the share. I will take the example of a multinational company doing this for intragroup financing, which could involve a significant amount of money. Is the Minister of State stating there is no benefit to them picking that normal share in any of the EU regulated or EEA regulated markets? Is he saying that it does not make a difference whether they pick this regulated market over the other? I believe, but I could be wrong and am looking for information here, that there will be a benefit for them, and therefore they will now be able to go away to deal with and be involved in that type of benchmark shopping."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy We cannot say definitively that there will be no difference but the company cannot just choose one share. Finance and Revenue researchers have done research and the comparable shares we have seen to date are broadly comparable to the Irish-listed shares."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Is that regardless of any market?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Yes, regardless of any market. This is actually tighter than the secondary markets. A regulated market is where more established businesses are. We restricted the risk by eliminating the secondary markets and kept it to regulated markets where we feel that the benchmark will be more reliable. As I said, we cannot say for definite that there will be no difference but based on the research done to date by both Department of Finance and Revenue officials, the shares are broadly comparable to the Irish-listed shares."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty I want to go back to the safeguards. If we see companies selecting a market that benefits them because they are entitled to do so under the legislation, and they pick a normal share that is not comparable, or is more beneficial than other markets, are there any safeguards within Revenue in relation to dealing with that? Will they have the freedom now to take whatever regulated market that they want to choose?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Will Deputy Doherty repeat the question?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty What safeguards are there from a Revenue point of view if we start to see companies choosing one of the regulated EEA markets that is an outlier? It is obviously not going to be a huge outlier, but it will be of clear benefit to a company to choose-----"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy It is beneficial to choose one over other."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Yes. Are there any provisions within the existing legislation that would allow for Revenue to say that a company cannot do that because it is a bit of an outlier, or is it the case that this section allows it to choose whatever market it wants to choose as long as it is a regulated EEA market?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy My understanding is that there is an extremely limited number of these regulated entities which people could use to avail of forum shopping or the more beneficial treatment, as the Deputy described it. Finance and Revenue will monitor the use of the provisions going forward and if they see inappropriate benchmarks there is the option to make any changes or amendments that are needed."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Is that in future Bills?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Yes, at a future date."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Pearse Doherty Would it require legislative changes?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Robert Troy Yes."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach The committee agreed to sit until 9 p.m. and 10 p.m. was a contingency with a hard-stop at that point if we were mid-section. We have three minutes until 9 p.m., so I suggest that we adjourn at this point."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cian O'Callaghan The Cathaoirleach is going easy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Me, go easy? Always."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Cian O'Callaghan I am joking."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I am a very nice Chair. There is a lot members can do in a three-minute period. We will adjourn at this point. I thank the officials, secretariat and support staff for a very long day. Go raibh m\u00edle maith agaibh. We will meet again at 10 a.m. tomorrow."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Progress reported; Committee to sit again."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an roghchoiste ar athl\u00f3 ar 8.58 p.m go dt\u00ed 10 a.m., D\u00e9ardaoin, an 5 Samhain 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The select committee adjourned at 8.58 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 5 November 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Finance (No. 2) Bill 2026: Committee Stage"}]}}]},"contextDate":"2026-11-04"},{"debateRecord":{"house":{"showAs":"27th Seanad","committeeCode":"","houseCode":"seanad","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/house\/seanad\/27","chamberType":"house","houseNo":"27"},"chamber":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/def\/house\/seanad","showAs":"Seanad \u00c9ireann"},"lastUpdated":"2026-11-10T03:19:12+00:00","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-11-04\/debate\/main","formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-11-04\/debate\/mul@\/main.xml"},"pdf":null},"date":"2026-11-04","counts":{"contributorCount":34,"divisionCount":0,"debateSectionCount":14,"questionCount":0,"billCount":2},"debateType":"debate","debateSections":[{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_2","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Gn\u00f3 an tSeanaid - Business of Seanad","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I have received notice from the following Senators that they propose to raise the following matters: Senator Joe O'Reilly - The need for the Minister for Justice, Home Affairs and Migration to make a statement on additional measures that can be put in place to prevent violence and intimidation of councillors. Senator Eileen Lynch - The need for the Minister for Transport to make a statement on funding for the Charleville ring road-relief road and interim road safety and traffic management measures at Charleville, County Cork. Senator Sharon Keogan - The need for the Minister for Children, Disability and Equality to make a statement on the implementation of a dedicated weekly savings scheme for children in State care. Senator Teresa Costello - The need for the Minister for Health to make a statement on the provision of funding for the introduction of local anaesthesia when getting an intrauterine device fitted. Senator Laura Harmon - The need for the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science to make a statement on the reduction in income for third level institutions in 2026 due to international student visas being rejected or delayed. Senator Mark Duffy - The need for the Minister for Education and Youth to make a statement on the provision of a new classroom at Knockanillo National School, Ballina, County Mayo. The matters raised by the Senators are suitable for discussion and they will be taken now."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Gn\u00f3 an tSeanaid - Business of Seanad"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_3","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":false,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_4","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Crime Prevention","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_4","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-O'Reilly.S.1989-10-01","memberCode":"Joe-O'Reilly.S.1989-10-01","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach I welcome the Minister of State, Colm Brophy."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-O'Reilly.S.1989-10-01","memberCode":"Joe-O'Reilly.S.1989-10-01","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Joe O'Reilly I thank the Cathaoirleach for selecting this item. I welcome my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Brophy. It is the first time I have had the opportunity to address him here. I acknowledge his proactive work in his Department on a number of fronts. The Minister of State, like colleagues in the House, will be aware of the publication of the local democracy task force report and how that has given rise to a discussion on local government, the role of our councillors, their powers, and so on. Specifically, it brings into focus the question of female representation, the number of women councillors and their treatment. In recent months, at least 80 of our women councillors fell victim to repeated, highly inappropriate phone calls. These calls were undoubtedly targeted to intimidate. They were accompanied by a constant undercurrent of online abuse, which remains. It was disturbing for me, as a fellow public representative, to witness this. Our women colleagues responded with great grace, remarkably so given the disgusting and despicable nature of the calls. A direct attack on our women councillors is unacceptable. Ireland champions equal rights, which is a core value for us. I am proud that my party, when then Minister, Mr. Hogan, was in office, created the quota system to break the glass ceiling for women entering public life. For that reason, we feel much concern about this. A survey conducted in 2011 found that one third of all women councillors had experienced harassment and sexual misconduct in office. This shows that the recent phone calls were only part of a pattern. The local democracy task force has a role in strengthening local government and transferring responsibilities. However, dealing with abuse and intimidation has to be a central first step. We as a party have produced safety guidance, training and support for our women councillors and all candidates to deal with that. In the context of digital abuse, we have traditionally had a code for the print media for years, but we have not yet dealt adequately with digital platforms and digital media. I would be interested in the Minister of State's response on that. Councillors must have access to clear reporting procedures and support when incidents of harassment occur. We must consider the safety of councillors, including appropriate digital security measures. More needs to be done. There has been work on youth recently, and that needs to be stepped up, as does digital surveillance in general. Online abuse, intimidation and threatening activity need to be dealt with. There must be proactive and positive encouragement of women to enter politics and to feel that it is a safe space for them, not just the avoidance of this type of activity. As an aside, the abuse, including a death threat, that one of our women colleagues here in the Seanad, Senator Keogan, received over recent months was shocking. I am specifically addressing the question of women councillors. I am interested in the Minister of State's response on what he sees his Department being able to do about online abuse and protecting our women in their role as representatives."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration (Deputy Colm Brophy) I thank the Senator for raising this important issue. I am here to respond on behalf of the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan. The right to free and fair elections is a fundamental part of our democracy. It is important that people feel they can participate safely. That includes women and people from the new communities who have come and settled in Ireland and are thankfully now a vibrant part of our local democracy. We should never be willing to ignore or fail to take seriously intimidating behaviour and threats against people participating in public life. The culmination of that is to deter people who are future leaders in our community. Every form of abuse, including verbal abuse, intimidation and harassment, has no place and cannot be tolerated. People have a right to object, to voice dissent and to hold public representatives to account. I fully understand that. However, there is a collective responsibility to do that. I take on board the comments the Senator made about further measures we can take. The Minister, Deputy Jim O'Callaghan, engages with An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na has a proactive engagement procedure for public representatives. It will talk to and engage with public representatives about their personal security, including any particular threat or issue they wish to raise. I encourage anyone having an experience as a public representative, be it at local or national level, to engage with An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na and its relevant officers. I take the Senator's point on the digital side, however. I know the Oireachtas has been looking at addressing this issue. The Government has looked at this across a range of areas because it is an important issue, particularly when it comes to the interaction in that newer element of social media, which is, effectively, an unregulated space compared to the traditional media. It is particularly sad - the Senator is right to highlight this point - to see the level of vitriol and abuse directed at almost every utterance and comment of female public representatives at all levels. It is a greater level than that directed at male colleagues. It is an unfortunate testament of our society in so many ways that keyboard warriors hiding many kilometres away think they have the right to carry out this level of abuse and intimidation. At the heart of it, we need to work with An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na and make sure that people feel safe in their roles as public representatives."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-O'Reilly.S.1989-10-01","memberCode":"Joe-O'Reilly.S.1989-10-01","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Joe O'Reilly I appreciate the Minister of State\u2019s positive response. First, he accepts there is an issue. That is an important section of his response. Second, he accepts the need and willingness of his Department to react proactively. As I said, and as the Minister of State acknowledged in his remarks, in essence, it boils down to the fact that were a woman councillor \u2013 it could be any councillor but I am using the example of a woman councillor in this context - to be abused in the traditional print media in any shape or form, it would be immediately actionable. We have to arrive at a similar situation for the digital platforms, social media, etc. A woman must be able to walk into a Garda station and show the material to a garda, and that garda then must have the legislative back-up and laws to act on it. It has to be a given that it is treated as reprehensively as it would be if it were to be in the traditional media. I welcome the Minister of State\u2019s response. It is a good first step. I hope he can follow it up with actions and controls."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Colm Brophy I thank the Senator. I know it is something he feels strongly about. He has raised this issue with me previously. I completely take on board what he has said. To reiterate, I will feed back what the Senator has said here today to the Minister, Deputy O\u2019Callaghan. It is vitally important that we recognise the need to have a broader base of participation in public life, particularly at local level. We need to foster and encourage people to get involved in politics and contribute to their communities and society. At the heart of it, people must feel safe to do that. Not only must women feel safe to do so, but people from our newer communities, as well as men, must also feel safe in that regard. It is particularly important that we establish boundaries around what is said and put up on social media because the impact of the type of abuse and unacceptable behaviour we have seen in recent times can be hugely traumatic, not solely on the individual but on their families too."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Crime Prevention"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_5","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Road Projects","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_5","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eileen Lynch","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eileen-Lynch.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Eileen-Lynch.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eileen Lynch","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eileen-Lynch.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Eileen-Lynch.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Eileen Lynch Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an Aire St\u00e1it, an Teachta Byrne, as a bheith anseo linn inniu. I am speaking today about the Charleville relief road project. I seek for it to be fast-tracked, backed by adequate and sustained Government funding and for urgent road safety and traffic management to be introduced within the town. I am raising this for several reasons. There was a local public meeting recently, organised by the Charleville Community Forum, to discuss this matter. It was well attended by residents, business owners, schools and community representatives to outline the impact traffic within Charleville is having on their lives on a daily basis. There are many concerns about pedestrian safety, heavy goods vehicles, HGVs, congestion, noise and air quality. They also highlighted the effect this is having on businesses and people going about their day-to-day lives within the town. Their message is incredibly clear. Charleville cannot continue to wait indefinitely for a solution. Some 14,000 vehicles go through the town per day. Between 2018 and 2024, there were 21 personal injury collisions, five of which resulted in fatalities. A total of ten fatalities have occurred on the main street of Charleville over the past ten years. Behind all of these figures are families and a community that knows this has to happen. I strongly support the development of the N20-M20 Cork-Limerick road. It is essential for road safety, regional development and reliable connection between Cork and Limerick, but progress is way too slow. I come from Macroom, where we were waiting 50 years for a bypass. I appreciate that these things take time, including the N20-M20, but that does not mean that Charleville should have to continue to wait for many years on planning, construction and the delivery of this relief road. I do not see any reason this cannot happen simultaneously. We do not actually have dates for the development of the ring road, which can happen alongside the N20-M20. It is crucial that this information is provided, that Charleville can continue to function and that we see the development of the ring road while the N20-M20 develops simultaneously. Fundamentally, there are three points I seek to raise today. The first is the need for a realistic timetable for selecting the preferred option for the relief road, completing design, securing approvals and moving towards construction. The people at the public meeting, which I spoke about earlier, sought clear information on funding, dates and delivery. That certainty has to be provided. Second, there is a need for adequate and sustained funding throughout every phase. We cannot complete one stage only to see the project lag while funding or approval is awaited for the next phase. Cork County Council and Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII, need the resources to continue these works. Third, immediate safety improvements are a necessity within the town. I am requesting that the Minister support an urgent funded programme covering pedestrian crossings, crossing times, speed management, junction safety and measures to address the impact of HGV traffic in the town. Residents, businesses, schools and garda\u00ed should also help these measures with proper consultation with the local community. Planning and assessments are necessary but avoidable delays between phases have to be removed. The people of Charleville are looking for safe streets, a functioning town centre and a credible delivery plan. I am seeking that the Minister will commit to accelerate the relief road, sustain its funding and deliver interim safety measures while permanent solutions are progressed."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Deputy Thomas Byrne) I thank the Senator for her Commencement matter. The matter of infrastructure development to support road safety as well as quality of life for people is important. The Minister for Transport, Deputy O\u2019Brien, has overall policy and Exchequer funding responsibility for the national roads programme. Once funding arrangements have been put in place with TII under the Roads Act, the planning, design, improvement and upgrading of individual roads is a matter for TII in conjunction with the local authorities. TII delivers the national roads programme. It is important to point out that a number of major national roads projected have already been delivered under the current national development plan, NDP, including the M8 at Dunkettle and the N22 Baile Bhuirne to Macroom road. These projects have resulted in improved connectivity for Cork and the wider region. Approximately \u20ac659 million of Exchequer capital funds were provided for national roads through TII to local authorities this year, \u20ac143 million of which was allocated to Cork city and county councils. A major priority in the NDP, in line with the Department\u2019s investment hierarchy, is to maintain the quality and safety of the existing network. This includes funding for minor improvement projects and safety schemes, such as junction upgrades and realignments and pavement renewals. The options selection process for the Charleville relief road is well-advanced. A full multicriteria analysis of the refined number of route options is being carried out to identify the emerging preferred route. The work is focused on traffic modelling of the shortlisted route options, which is substantially complete. It is expected that the emerging preferred route will be identified and signed off by the end of the year. Public consultation will then take place and \u20ac500,000 has been allocated for this work. TII approved funding for the N20 Charleville safety scheme under its road safety improvement programme. Cork County Council is proceeding with the approved safety scheme in two phases. The section 38 process for phase 1 was completed earlier this year and detailed design and implementation is progressing. The council is preparing the Part 8 process for phase 2, with publication anticipated later this year. The safety works proposed for the main street of Charleville include the removal of parking spaces and better and safer delineation and crossing points for pedestrians. The safety improvement scheme includes the provision of replacement off-street parking near Main Street for spaces that require relocation to achieve the safety improvements for pedestrians and other road users. I will take this opportunity to mention the N20-M20 Cork to Limerick project, which will bypass a number of towns in north Cork, including Charleville. The project is at an advanced stage of the design and environmental evaluation phase. It is expected that a preliminary business case will be submitted to the Department early next year, ahead of a Government decision required under the infrastructure guidelines. Once delivered, it will transform Charleville."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eileen Lynch","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eileen-Lynch.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Eileen-Lynch.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Eileen Lynch I thank the Minister of State for his reply. There is some positive news regarding delivery but the reply fails to address when this will actually happen. He mentioned the Macroom and Ballyvourney bypass. Coming from that area, I know this was first broached in the late 1960s and it was opened officially in 2023. These things take time; I get that and I have set it out. The reply states that progress is being made and that \u20ac500,000 has been allocated in 2026. I seek clarity on what this will go towards. Will it go towards design? Where will the funding ultimately go? The Minister of State also mentioned the N20-M20, as I did in my contribution. The dates for this project continue to change. To the best of my knowledge, the hope is to have planning next year with construction commencing in 2030 to be competed in 2035. This is all well and good but the people living in Charleville and the businesses there see this heavy volume of traffic going through their town every day but they are not getting a resolution. I am not sure this reply will provide much solace to them. As I have said, ten people have died on the main street of Charleville in the past ten years. Do we need more people to die in order to progress and promote this matter?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Byrne I acknowledge the road safety concerns but there is significant funding for the town of Charleville and for work going on in this regarding. Even this year, approximately \u20ac141 million in capital funding has been allocated for the national road network in Cork. This is to protect and renew the existing road network and for work on new road projects such as the M20 from Cork to Limerick and the M28 from Cork to Ringaskiddy. This is what the programme for Government is all about. It commits to enhancing connectivity across urban and rural areas. There is a commitment to increase funding for new roads as part of the national development plan review and for the maintenance of existing roads. It is one of the differences between this Government and the previous Government. With the two parties now in government, there is a bigger emphasis on new road projects. This is why some of this work is now getting off the ground. The national development plan sectoral review and the investment plan for transport were published by the Government on 26 November last year. The sectoral investment plan sets out capital ceilings for transport to 2030 and foresees increased investment in transport infrastructure, including roads, compared with the first half of this decade. Allocations for national roads will be announced by the Minister in the coming weeks."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Road Projects"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_6","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Children in Care","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_6","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sharon Keogan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Noonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sharon Keogan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Sharon Keogan I thank the Minister of State for coming here today. I am raising a matter of profound importance regarding the long-term welfare and security of some of the most vulnerable young people in the State, namely, children in the care system. I call on the Minister for Children, Disability and Equality to consider implementing a dedicated, State-backed weekly savings scheme for children in care. When these children turn 18, our system falls quiet. We essentially tell them that their time is up and expect them to transition seamlessly to independent adulthood overnight. This sudden cliff edge is an entirely unfair standard to place on any young adult. To see how we could do better, I want to raise a new model being tried on a small island not too far from our own. The Channel Islands of Jersey and Guernsey lie off the coast of France but are under the British crown and each has its own small government. Recently the Government of Guernsey launched a highly practical State-funded initiative in partnership with Guernsey Community Savings. Under this programme, the government sets aside a modest \u00a310 per week for every child in the care system. These contributions build up continuously from the very moment a young person enters care right up until the age of 18. When these individuals exit the system, they are not handed a folder of paperwork and left to struggle. Instead, they are met with a guaranteed financial nest egg, a highly helpful lump sum, that they can use to navigate the immediate costs of independent adult life. Whether this means securing accommodation, entering higher education or simply meeting everyday living expenses, they have a leg up. Will the Government consider developing a similar common-sense framework in Ireland? We are a wealthy State yet we consistently operate a reactive model of governance. We wait for care leavers to fall into crisis, housing insecurity or financial hardship and only then do we scramble to deploy costly State interventions. I acknowledge the work that has been done to date. There are aftercare allowances and supports for those who stay in education. There are many organisations, such as Crosscare and EPIC, and they are all a help. However, overall there are a number of major issues. There is no overall co-ordinated and systematic plan for how to support care leavers. I also have to be frank and say that what is already there is simply not enough. The way we give support does not foster or necessarily help to provide young people leaving care real independence. The way supports are designed means the money received by young people leaving care is not their own money sitting in their own pockets, which would give them the vital simultaneous combination of freedom and responsibility. Instead, we encourage young people to think of money as something given to them after they fill out a form when they are in need. By contrast, a dedicated weekly savings scheme is a preventive and empowering measure. It gives foster children a concrete boost exactly when they need it most. It builds an automatic buffer against poverty and awards them the financial security and independence that their peers from stable family backgrounds naturally rely upon. I am asking for a number of clear commitments. Will the Department examine the operational structure of the Guernsey model to see how it could be adapted to the Irish system? Will the Minister for children commission a cost-benefit analysis of introducing an automatic State-funded weekly savings scheme for all minors in State care? Will the Government establish a clear timeline for introducing robust financial transition assets for care leavers as part of the upcoming budget priorities? We do not need more empty expressions of sympathy for children in care. We need a Government prepared to deliver practical, long-term security to ensure that when the State steps in as a parent it behaves like a responsible one."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Byrne I thank the Senator for raising this matter. She has a long-standing interest in advancing outcomes for children and young people in State care. The Government is committed to supporting children in care at every stage, including the transition from care into adulthood. The Government will continue to work to ensure that every child has the right to grow up in a safe and secure environment that feels as much as possible like home and to give every child in care the same opportunities as their peers. Children in care are some of the most vulnerable individuals in society. A priority for the Minister for children and for Tusla is to ensure that all children in care are well looked after while in care and that they receive the supports they need to transition into adulthood. This is a critical juncture in their lives, which is why for its part the Government has supported children in care through strong investment in Tusla. The Minister is due to publish a national policy framework for alternative care, which will provide the future vision for the provision of alternative care services in Ireland. Development of the framework was guided by the views and suggestions brought forward through extensive consultation with young people, with both current and past care experience of the care system, along with key stakeholders and members of the public. Financial supports for children in State care, and those transitioning from the care system into adulthood, were considered as part of the development of the framework, and that is due to be published in the coming months. Children in receipt of aftercare are also entitled to financial and non-financial supports. Tusla may provide financial support to eligible care leavers who are engaged in a qualifying educational course or training programme. The aftercare allowance is provided at a rate of \u20ac300 per week. It is designed to cover a young adult's day-to-day costs, including accommodation, as they progress in their chosen accredited course or training programme. In 2027, it is planned to increase the aftercare grant paid to young adults in aftercare to help them meet the costs of transitioning to adulthood. A new transitional aftercare allowance for care leavers not engaged in education or training is also being prepared. Separately, a new support for foster carers to support young people leaving care to complete second level education once they turn 18 is being developed and will be rolled out in 2027. The national policy framework for alternative care will support the implementation of these initial measures and provide the basis for further development of measures to financially support children in State care. Tusla\u2019s overall budget has also increased significantly over the past number of years, reaching \u20ac1.4 billion in 2026. This budget will be increased further in 2027, highlighting the significant investment by the Government in care services for children."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sharon Keogan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Sharon Keogan I welcome the Government's commitment in 2027 to increase the grant paid to young adults in aftercare but that payment goes to the parent of the child, not the child. There is no compunction on that parent to allocate any of that money to the child. If the child happens to leave care and is in the education system, and Tusla has paid for their accommodation, the child will receive the aftercare allowance, but what about the children who do not enter into education? They will end up on our streets if we do not support them. Some of the children who are not in receipt of any aftercare payment leave the homes where they have been in foster care carrying a few plastic bags, and I want the Minister of State to know that. Many of those children who have come into my care over the years carried all of their possessions in a plastic bag. I want the Government to do more for the 6,500 children who are currently in care and invest by giving them money, even \u20ac5 or \u20ac10 a week, from the start until they turn 18 so they have some money in their accounts at the age of 18. I believe that a small amount could be given to children in care for all the years they are in care. It is wrong to not have a payment and for a child turning 18 to have absolutely nothing. It is all right for responsible parents who might encourage children to work, which I have always done with my children - the children who have come into my care - but many parents do not get the opportunity to have a child who might get a part-time job. I ask the Government to consider granting a State payment."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Byrne I again thank the Senator for raising this issue. I appreciate her long-standing interest in and experience of all of this. I am here to speak on behalf of the Minister. She reiterates her commitment to supporting children in State care. The Department will continue to examine ways of improving the provision of alternative care and how best to support those exiting care as they become adults. The Minister views the publication of the national policy framework for alternative care as an important new opportunity for the delivery of key measures for children in care in Ireland, and for those who leave care when they become adults. The measures outlined in the framework will help young care leavers as they strive for independence. It will also lay out the policy detail on how the Government will better support children in care in the short, medium and long terms. Budget 2027 builds the foundation for these measures, including the roll-out of the new transitional aftercare allowance, continued financial supports for foster carers of those finishing second level education, and the increased aftercare grant. The Minister and the Department will continue to bring forward measures to improve the lives of young people in care throughout their journey and to provide the best possible start to their adult lives. Finally, I would like to acknowledge all of the invaluable work that is undertaken to support children in care, including those who are transitioning into adulthood. The support that these workers provide to children and young people is critical to providing them with the best opportunities to thrive in care and then on into their adult lives."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Noonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Acting Chairperson (Senator Malcolm Noonan) Before our next Commencement matter, I welcome Berney Smith from Long Island who is a guest of Senator Scahill. I also welcome two guests of the Minister of State, Deputy Emer Higgins. You are all very welcome to the Public Gallery and I hope you enjoy your visit here today."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Children in Care"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_7","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Health Services","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_7","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Teresa Costello","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Teresa-Costello.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Teresa-Costello.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Noonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Teresa Costello","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Teresa-Costello.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Teresa-Costello.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Teresa Costello I want to raise an issue that I feel very strongly about, one that I know will resonate with women right across the country. It is about the pain that women can experience when having a Mirena coil fitted. I want to know why, in this day and age, women are still expected to put up with what can be a very painful procedure without being offered adequate pain relief. First, I acknowledge the investment that the Government has made in women's health, particularly through the free contraception scheme. It has made a real difference and I welcome that. The Mirena coil, along with other hormonal coils like Kyleena and Jaydess, is what is known as long-acting reversible contraception, LARC. These coils are highly effective forms of contraception. For many women, they can be life changing, particularly for those dealing with heavy periods, but getting a coil fitted can be an entirely different experience. Some women will say that the fitting was uncomfortable but manageable while other women will say it was the most painful experience that they have had, which is what concerns me. We hear stories of women being told to take a couple of paracetamol before their appointment and that they will feel a little pinch that will be over in a few minutes. For some women, the pain is more than a pinch and that reality should not be dismissed. There are pain relief options available, including nitrous oxide. This will be the first time ever that Members will hear me talking about the legitimate uses of nitrous oxide, because as many people know, I have a huge issue with the illegal use of nitrous oxide in our communities. Nitrous oxide is commonly known as gas and air, which can help people manage pain and anxiety while remaining awake. There is also intravenous sedation, which can make a woman more relaxed and sleepy during the procedure. Finally, there is general anaesthesia, where a woman is completely asleep. I do not suggest that every women needs to be put asleep to have a coil fitted but I am highlighting what is available. Surely if a woman is extremely anxious and has experienced a traumatic insertion previously or knows that she cannot tolerate the pain, there should be a proper pathway for her to access additional pain relief or sedation. I want to make a point about local anaesthetics because this issue has been raised with me. A local anaesthetic can be used but it can involve injecting the cervix, which can be very painful. For a woman already frightened of a procedure, that may not be an acceptable option for her. I want to know why we are not looking more seriously at alternatives such as gas and air. Why should women have to seek a private clinic or, potentially, pay out of their own pockets to access a procedure with appropriate pain management? We have made contraception free for women, and rightly so, but what is the point of removing a financial barrier if the woman is then afraid to have the procedure because of pain? In particular, I am thinking of younger women, women who have never had children and women who have already had a bad experience. I genuinely believe that if a man had to undergo this procedure, we would already have had the conversation. He would not be dismissed and told to take two paracetamol and to get on with it, so I do not see why women should have to either. First, I want the Minister for Health to engage with the HSE and look at how we can make gas and air and appropriate sedation more accessible to women having coils fitted, with general anaesthesia available where clinically necessary. Second, I want to know what is currently available in public hospitals and clinics and why access appears to vary depending on where a woman goes. Third, I want women to be given the proper information about their options before they arrive for the procedure and not when they are lying on the examination table. We have made great progress in women's healthcare and I am particularly proud of the progress made within Fianna F\u00e1il. I am a great advocate for women's health and I always commend my party for listening when I raise issues and for supporting them. Women should not have to suffer unnecessarily when accessing contraception."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Byrne I thank the Senator for raising this important matter, which I am talking on behalf of the Minister for Health, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, who cannot be here this morning. The Minister has asked me to say the following. The HSE has the national women and infants health programme, NWIHP, has advised - of course, it is medical advice that the Department is getting on this - that the procedure is commonly performed in outpatient settings, as women know, both in the community and in hospitals. Of course, all experiences are different and pain can vary considerably between patients - between women - and can be influenced by a range of individual and clinical factors. The NWIHP advises that women should be fully informed and supported before undergoing Mirena coil insertion. This should include a discussion about pain and discomfort, recognising that experiences vary considerably and can range from little or no pain to much more significant pain. Local and general anaesthesia can support pain management, but of course there are risks and potential side effects which should be discussed in advance. The advice internationally is that general anaesthesia is not recommended as a first-line approach for routine coil insertion. Where an anaesthetic option cannot be provided locally, alternative referral pathways are available, if required. Decisions should be made jointly by the woman and her doctor. The NWIHP has also introduced a range of initiatives to better support women accessing ambulatory gynaecology services, including measures to improve preparation for procedures, pain management and the overall patient experience. In 2024, the NWIHP completed a national review of ambulatory gynaecology services, with a strong focus on improving women\u2019s experience of care. The review recommended strengthened approaches to pain relief and anaesthesia, better information for women in advance of their appointment, access to local anaesthetic where appropriate and clear reassurance that a procedure can be paused or stopped at the woman\u2019s request. In late 2025, the NWIHP conducted the first national ambulatory gynaecology patient experience survey, which provided important insights. The survey found that 81.17% of respondents reported mild to moderate discomfort, while approximately 10% reported severe pain and 9% reported no pain. It also found that 85.6% of respondents had received advice on pain relief in advance of their appointment. These findings provide an important national baseline. In particular, the experiences of women who reported severe pain underline the importance of continuing to strengthen patient preparation, communication and access to appropriate pain relief. The survey will be repeated to help to monitor progress and inform ongoing improvements in ambulatory gynaecology services. Through the continued implementation of the model of care for ambulatory gynaecology and the development of specialist women's health services, we are committed to improving women's experience of gynaecological care. This means ensuring that women are listened to, appropriately supported and provided with timely, high-quality care that reflects their individual needs and circumstances."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Teresa Costello","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Teresa-Costello.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Teresa-Costello.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Teresa Costello I thank the Minister of State. I would appreciate if he went back to the Minister to highlight the benefit of the nitrous oxide option. It is a case of giving them a little whiff and letting them on their way. There is nothing more effective than lived experience. When I see the percentages of women who are giving feedback, I always think the numbers may be a little bit out of whack. Not everybody responds to such feedback requests, so you are dealing with low numbers. The coil, as it is referred to, is a localised hormone so it is probably one of the safest and most effective forms of contraception. I would hate to think that any young woman who might want to avail of it would not do so because of pain. I spoke to a few young women and when I mentioned its application, they winced and they all said it was pretty painful."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Thomas Byrne I thank the Senator. Of course I will bring her comments back to the Minister for Health. Every woman undergoing coil insertion should feel informed, supported and listened to throughout their care. While the procedure is routinely undertaken in community and hospital outpatient settings, experiences of pain and discomfort vary considerably. It can be very painful for some women. The HSE has advised that local anaesthetic can be offered, where appropriate, as part of the pain relief options available. Ultimately, every woman should feel supported to discuss her individual needs, concerns and preferences with her healthcare professional. Decisions around pain management and coil insertion should be made together, ensuring that the approach reflects each woman\u2019s individual circumstances and the care that is most appropriate for her. The Government's three women\u2019s health action plans focused on delivering practical improvements in healthcare for women and girls across Ireland. I thank Senator Costello for recognising that and for her work on informing them. We can see the impact of that investment in the free contraception scheme which is available to women between the ages of 17 and 35. We have expanded ambulatory gynaecology services, with 19 clinics established and another two under development. The women's health action plan, which was published on 8 July, has a focus on embedding and expanding services and strengthening research and innovation. Improving women's health services is about listening to women and ensuring their experiences inform the design and delivery of services. We will continue to listen and ensure that women receive high-quality, compassionate and responsive care."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Noonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Acting Chairperson (Senator Malcolm Noonan) I welcome the pupils from Tullamore Educate Together National School and the members of the Killeigh visual arts group who are guests of Deputy John Clendennen. They are very welcome to Leinster House and I hope they enjoy their visit today. It is customary for schoolchildren to have no homework tomorrow as well. Their teacher is with them so I want to notify them of that."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Health Services"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_8","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Student Visas","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Noonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Laura Harmon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Noonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Acting Chairperson (Senator Malcolm Noonan) I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Harkin, to the House."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Laura Harmon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Laura Harmon I welcome the Minister of State to the Chamber. I want to ask questions about visa rejections and delays when it comes to colleges and universities across the country. It was extremely alarming to hear at the committee on further and higher education two weeks ago from the chair of the governing authority in UCC that they are down \u20ac3.7 million this year because of international students being unable to take up places in the college. As their visas were either rejected or delayed, they did not get to come to UCC to study. I know anecdotally, because I have been speaking to colleges off the record, that this problem is being replicated in other institutions across the country. The Technological University of the Shannon is on record publicly as saying they have had to adjust some of their master's courses because of changes in international students taking up places. What is happening in terms of the policy here? When I spoke to officials in the Department of further and higher education, they told me that this is a matter for the Department of justice, that they do not have the figures and that the Higher Education Authority, HEA, will not be collating them until the end of the year. Why can the Minister, Deputy Lawless, not write to the colleges to find out how much of a problem this is and what it is like in every college across the country? I have had journalists contact me to ask questions about this. It is a sorry state of affairs that a journalist might have to go looking for this information and that the Minister cannot provide it. If UCC is down \u20ac3.7 million, it raises serious questions. If that figure is replicated in other universities and colleges, we could be talking about tens of millions that they are down in funding. Colleges are already down in terms of funding over many years. I hosted a briefing recently with the Irish Federation of University Teachers; the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, ICTU; and other trade unions calling for a better injection of funding into colleges. They are down millions of euro in funding. I also hear that this is potentially an issue that will affect staffing in colleges. When we refuse or delay visas and when that policy is not clear, and colleges are down money because international students cannot take up places, it not only affects the college environment and the college funding but it also affects staffing. I am hearing that staff in many colleges are not being replaced when people retire. Colleges are not hiring new staff members. People are on precarious contracts or part-time contracts. PhD workers are not being paid properly. There is an overall workers' rights issue here as well. Many of these workers in the universities will be going on strike again next Thursday. This has an impact not only on the educational make-up of the college and the funding of the college, but also on the workers in the college and on the local communities as well. We know that international students and the international education sector in Ireland contribute over \u20ac1 billion to the economy in terms of the money they pay in fees, what they are paying for accommodation and the cost they pay to live here as they are going out spending. Many of them work part time as well. They are working in retail, nursing homes and lots of different sectors so they are contributing to the economy in that way. This is a very serious matter. Have there been policy changes? I am tired of hearing that it is the problem of one Department and not the other. I am not just talking about the Palestinian students who were refused visas, as I know that is a separate matter; I am talking about visa policy in general. I understand that there are questions for the Minister for justice as well but I would ask that the two Departments link up and provide some clarity to the public in relation to this. It should not be up to a journalist or to me to go away and collate these figures for the Departments."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister of State at the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science (Deputy Marian Harkin) I thank the Senator for raising this important matter. We all know that international students make a significant contribution to our institutions, research ecosystem, economy and wider society. They enrich the experience of all learners in our institutions and play an important role in supporting Ireland's internationalisation ambitions, as outlined in Global Citizens 2030. As the Senator said, I am taking this matter on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Lawless, who has responsibility for higher education. The Minister is very much aware of the concerns raised by the higher education sector regarding visa refusals and processing delays. These have been raised directly with him by both the Irish Universities Association, IUA, and the Technological Universities Association, TUA, and he has met with both bodies to hear their views. He recognises that where institutions experience lower than anticipated international student enrolments, whether due to visa refusals, processing delays or other factors, there may be financial implications for those institutions. International student fee income forms an important part of the funding mix for our higher education institutions and fluctuations in student numbers can have an impact on projected income. However, as autonomous bodies, the higher education institutions are responsible for their own financial management and reporting. The Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science does not collect data on projected versus actual international student fee income or institution-level data on the country of origin of individual applicants. Consequently, the Minister is not in a position to provide the specific breakdown requested by the Senator. As part of the Higher Education Authority's statutory oversight and governance rules, institutions submit annual financial statements and accounts to the HEA. However, these returns do not include a breakout of international student fee income from the overall student fee income figure. The assessment and determination of visa applications, as the Senator has already said, is a matter for the Department of Justice, Migration and Home Affairs. The Department of higher education has no role in individual visa decisions. Visa applications are considered in accordance with the relevant immigration legislation and on the merits of each individual case. That said, officials in the Department of higher education engage regularly with officials in the Department of Justice, Migration and Home Affairs on issues affecting international students and researchers, including those concerns raised by the sector, and will continue to do so. The latest information provided by officials in the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration indicates that up to 30 September 2026, the three largest source countries for long-stay type D visa applications and refusals were India, China and Pakistan. However, it is important to note that these figures relate to all type D visa applications and include those associated with English language education as well as higher education. Consequently, they do not provide a direct measure of visa outcomes for students intending to enrol in a higher education institution. While he is not in a position to provide the specific financial breakdown sought by the Senator, the Minister recognises the importance of this issue and will continue to engage with both the higher education institutions, their representative bodies and the Minister for justice to better understand the impacts being reported and to ensure that Ireland remains an attractive destination for talented international students and researchers."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Laura Harmon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Laura Harmon I appreciate that the Minister of State is taking this matter on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Lawless, this morning and I acknowledge the information provided in relation to some of the countries that have been affected. It should be a priority for the Minister to know this information. I understand that this is a matter for the Department of justice but that Department is deeply affecting other Departments with the lack of transparency in its decision-making. Given that the two Ministers are in the same party, I assume they talk to each other. The Minister, Deputy Lawless, should make it his business to understand these figures because they are affecting colleges. If he does care about the figures, he should make it his business to know what they are. The HEA might not provide a breakdown but I am sure it is within its capacity to find out this information. It would not be unusual for a Minister to write to colleges to get information that is in the public interest and in his own interest to effectively run his Department. I hope that the Minister of State can bring that concern back to him. This information is going to have to come to light one way or another and the figures themselves could be quite stark."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Marian Harkin I thank the Senator and I hear what she is saying but we both agree that ultimate responsibility for visa processing rests with the Department of justice. The Minister, Deputy Lawless, and his officials meet with officials from that Department on a regular basis regarding student visas. One of the issues that the Senator raises this morning is funding for higher education. She will be interested to know that the Minister will be bringing a memo to the Cabinet on higher education funding in either December or January. Officials in the Department are meeting with the IUA and the TUA this Friday to discuss this matter. The Minister is very well aware of it and is working on it. He recognises that there is an issue here and is trying to find solutions."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Student Visas"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_9","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Schools Building Projects","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_9","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Duffy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Duffy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Mark Duffy I thank the Minister for being here this morning. My Commencement matter relates to Knockanillo National School in Ballina, County Mayo, a rural school that serves a wide catchment area. It is a very vibrant school that has contributed a huge amount to the community in terms of fund-raising activities, social gatherings and, most importantly, the education of young children. The school has been waiting for the replacement of a prefabricated classroom for the past three years. The Minister is aware of this and has discussed it with me previously at length. It has been three years going through the different processes. The school is in desperate need of an additional classroom. I tabled this Commencement matter to reaffirm my support for the school and to highlight the situation with the Minister on the record. I appreciate her coming into the House today to discuss this matter. The board of management and the parents feel very strongly that they need this classroom to be able to continue to offer excellent education to the children and young people of the area. Ballina is a big and vibrant town and the school at Knockanillo is helping to alleviate pressure on other schools in the area. This situation has been going on for three years and the school is very keen to see this new classroom realised as soon as possible. A lot of money has been spent on it. I would like to acknowledge the principal, Mr. David McDonnell, with whom I have been engaging. He is doing brilliant work, as are all of the teachers in the school and the students themselves. Hopefully, they will be up here in Leinster House at some stage for a visit and tour. I would appreciate the Minister's support in getting this project to the next stage and ultimately to delivery. As I said, it is something the school very much needs and it would make a positive and transformational difference to it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister for Education and Youth (Deputy Hildegarde Naughton) Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an Seanad\u00f3ir Duffy as an gceist seo a ard\u00fa mar tugann s\u00e9 deis dom achoimre a thabhairt don Seanad ar an seasamh reatha maidir leis an scoil seo. I thank Senator Duffy for raising this matter as it gives me an opportunity this morning to outline to the Seanad the current position in relation to the school building project for Knockanillo National School, Ballina, County Mayo. The project was approved to enter the Department of Education and Youth's pipeline for a project under the additional school accommodation scheme. The project will provide one mainstream classroom. The project was devolved to the school authority for delivery and is currently at stage 2B, detailed design, as the Senator has outlined. During this stage, statutory approvals are obtained and the project design is further progressed to reflect any conditions of planning. The stage 2B report has been submitted to my Department and is currently under review from a technical and cost perspective. All school building projects, as they progress through the pipeline, must undergo the necessary due diligence outlined in the infrastructure guidelines and capital works management framework. The timing of a project moving from one stage to the next requires careful planning and takes account of factors such as compliance with all scope, design and cost requirements, timing of affordability and the prioritisation necessary for the school building programme to remain within agreed annual funding allocations. My Department will continue to progress projects on a prioritised basis to meet demand for additional capacity and the modernisation of existing facilities. It is expected that the next tranche of projects to proceed to tender will be published next year, 2027, and prioritisation will continue over the coming months to identify these projects. This will be informed by the latest available demographic and capacity data and the Department's energy and condition inventory, the validation of which is due to be completed by late 2026 or early 2027, and opportunities for phased development to prioritise the most urgent accommodation needs, as well as consultation with patrons and management bodies. As the programme continues to be prioritised and reviewed, further projects may be advanced where there is a demonstrated need, a sufficient level of project readiness and where progression can be accommodated within available funding and programme constraints. Consideration will also be given to opportunities to advance enabling and preparatory works in particularly urgent or complex projects where this would support their official progression and facilitate future delivery in the period from 2028 onwards. The sequencing and timing of individual projects will continue to be kept under review, having regard to emerging priorities, capacity considerations and overall programme requirements. My Department will continue to engage with the school authority regarding the accommodation at Knockanillo National School. I thank the Senator for raising this issue with me this morning."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Duffy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Mark Duffy I again thank the Minister for being here to take the Commencement matter. It is greatly appreciated. As she said, the Knockanillo National School project is a very important one for me and, more importantly, for the school and the community. I understand the reality of what the Minister said about tranches of announcements but I reiterate the importance of this project, which is desperately needed for the children of the area, and the school in particular. It is doing brilliant work and contributing to the community in so many different ways. The board of management, the teachers and the principal, David McDonnell, are very proactive in their leadership and excellence in education and they need to be helped and supported in their ambition for the young people by having adequate facilities. I cannot over-emphasise how important this is for them. Could the project be included in the next tranche of funding and as soon as possible? I understand it is going through analysis at the moment. I really hope that the project is funded and included in the next tranche and that it is given priority because the school and the children deserve it. I look forward to continuing to work with the Minister on it. I hope we can deliver for Knockanillo."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Deputy Hildegarde Naughton I again thank the Deputy for raising this issue. It is a school he has raised with me a number of times in recent months. As he is aware, my Department is committed to ensuring appropriate accommodation is available for school pupils and, in the wider context outlined, it will ensure that each school project on the school building programme is subject to the due diligence required under the Government's infrastructure guidelines. Since 2020 the Department of education has invested more than \u20ac180 million in capital funding for schools in Mayo to support 73 school building projects with 13 projects currently under construction. The needs of Knockanillo National School will be considered as part of the ongoing overall Department-led prioritisation process in consultation with the school's patron and authorities. We are working on the prioritisation list at the moment and engaging with management bodies and patrons. I hear the concerns the Senator has raised this morning and I thank him for bringing the matter to my attention."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Duffy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Mark Duffy I thank the Minister."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionra\u00ed ar 11.36 a.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 12.03 p.m."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sitting suspended at 11.36 a.m. and resumed at 12.03 p.m."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Schools Building Projects"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_10","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Visit of Ukrainian Delegation","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_10","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Before I call on the Leader to outline the Order of Business, I welcome the Deputy Foreign Minister of Ukraine, Dr. Mariana Betsa. She is most welcome to the Distinguished Visitors Gallery, along with the ambassador of Ukraine, who is a friend of many of ours and has been here since the beginning of the war of aggression by Russia. We look forward to their presence at the EU Presidency meetings that are being held, particularly this week, in relation to foreign affairs. I thank the Deputy Foreign Minister for being in Seanad \u00c9ireann today."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Visit of Ukrainian Delegation"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_11","debateType":"orderofBusiness","bill":null,"showAs":"An tOrd Gn\u00f3 - Order of Business","counts":{"speechCount":13,"speakerCount":12},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_11","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fiona O'Loughlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Manus Boyle","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Manus-Boyle.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Manus-Boyle.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Victor Boyhan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Frances Black","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Frances-Black.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Frances-Black.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Noel O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Noel-O'Donovan.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Noel-O'Donovan.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-O'Reilly.S.1989-10-01","memberCode":"Joe-O'Reilly.S.1989-10-01","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aubrey McCarthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Duffy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sharon Keogan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Garret Ahearn I, too, welcome the Deputy Foreign Minister to the Seanad Chamber. This is the first Chamber in the world where Ukrainian MPs addressed a Chamber post the war in 2022. This whole House, on all sides, is hugely supportive of Ukraine, the Ukrainian people, the ambassador and the work she does. The Order of Business is No. 1, report on the Committee of Selection, to be taken on conclusion of the Order of Business without debate; No. 2, statements on Food Vision 2030, to be taken at 1.30 p.m. and to conclude at 3 p.m. if not previously concluded, with the time allocated to the opening remarks of the Minister not to exceed ten minutes, group spokespersons not to exceed eight minutes each, all other Senators not to exceed five minutes each and the Minister to be given no less than ten minutes to reply to the debate; No. 3, Media Regulation Bill 2026 - Report and Final Stages, to be taken at 3.20 p.m. and to adjourn at 4 p.m. if not previously concluded; and No. 4, Private Members' business, Harassment, Harmful Communications and Related Offences (Amendment) (No. 3) Bill 2026 - Second Stage, to be taken at 4 p.m., with the time allocated to this debate not to exceed two hours."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Before I call on the Deputy Leader, I wish to mention the passing not of a Member of this House but of the former Minister, Gerard Collins, who served for 30 years as a Member of D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann. His father, James Collins, served prior to that. Mr. Collins served as foreign affairs Minister during the reunification of Germany and played a key role during Ireland's EU Presidency in 1989 and 1990 with regard to the reunification of Germany. Helmut Kohl praised Ireland and the then Minister, former Deputy Collins, for his support for that particular initiative. We offer our condolences to his wife Hilary and all the Collins family, and of course his nephew, the Minister of State, Deputy Niall Collins, a Member of the other House who continues that long family tradition. In fact, at this moment in time, I believe it is the longest continuing family service in Leinster House, with the Andrews family close behind."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fiona O'Loughlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Fiona O'Loughlin I add my voice of welcome to our distinguished guests, who have just left us. This morning, it was great to wake up to news of a very decisive blue wave right across America and to see the Democratic Party taking full control of the US Senate and the House of Representatives. This can be seen as a very clear rejection of President Trump's domestic and, most importantly for us, international policies. This shows us the importance of democratic checks and balances, and this development will undoubtedly shape global political and economic dynamics over the years ahead. I wish to raise the transfer of responsibility for the Multi-Unit Developments Act - it is called the MUD Act - from the Department of justice to the Department of housing. The necessary legislation to facilitate the move was passed months ago but the transfer of functions has not been executed. This is a critical governance issue. This transfer needs to be completed so that a dedicated regulator can be established to oversee owner management companies. We need a very clear timeline for this and clarity on it. I ask for a debate on this transfer of functions, to make sure that many thousands of frustrated apartment owners across the country will get clarity on it. I commend the excellent partnership between the GAA, the Gaelic Players Association and Movember on their Ahead of the Game initiative. I also take the opportunity to congratulate Sarsfields on a very decisive victory in the Kildare county final last Sunday. In regard to Movember Ahead of the Game, this evidence-based youth sports mental health literacy programme is making a really profound difference by equipping young athletes, parents and coaches around the country with very practical tools to build resilience and to recognise the signs of poor mental health. Already, it has had over 17,500 attendees across 449 clubs. It is a really fantastic example of a community-led network. I strongly encourage all local clubs in Kildare and right around the country to engage with the free workshops that are on offer this winter to help break the silence and stigma around mental health. Having said that, because November is the month of men's health and men's mental health, we should have a debate in the Seanad on both."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Manus Boyle","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Manus-Boyle.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Manus-Boyle.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Manus Boyle I want to talk about carers. They play a vital role in my county of Donegal, looking after our people. Every week since I have come here, I have been inundated with calls from people looking for carers for their loved ones. To be honest, we seem to be hitting a brick wall. Last night, I was contacted by a lady's family. She has been in hospital for ten weeks and they cannot get a home care package in place. That is holding up beds in emergency departments, community hospitals and every other place around Donegal. We need to get a plan in place here. There has to be a timeframe from when a person goes into hospital to the care package being rolled out. I have been asking colleagues about this issue and the situation has been replicated around the north west. We need the Minister to come in here and have a debate on carers for the north-west region, if not the whole of Ireland. It is something that affects every family. It is great that people are living to an older age but we must look after them. The families are stressed out. They are trying to work. They have children of their own and they are trying to look after mammy and daddy, do their long hours, sit up at night and look after mammy or daddy. There is nothing coming in. Another problem is that people will get a letter to say the package is in place. They take mammy or daddy or the aunt or uncle home and the help is not there. We really need to take a fundamental look at carers, how we can help on it and how we can sustain people living at home. They are far happier at home, if they can do it at all. I ask the Leader to call for the Minister to come in and have a dedicated debate on carers."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Victor Boyhan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Victor Boyhan There are a few issues I want to raise here this morning. First, I welcome the publication of the report of the Centre for Justice and Law Reform, titled Safeguarding Irish Election Integrity in the Era of Emerging Digital Threats, which may have arrived on some Senators' desks today. This was commissioned by the Law Society of Ireland. It makes for extraordinary reading and we should have a debate on it. We talked about elections and there are elections all over the world but the integrity of our electoral process is very profound and important. We have to safeguard it at all times. We are moving to a new generation in terms of digital threats, technology and how elections will be conducted into the future. It is an evolving space and a space that is moving faster than we can move ourselves and our limited capacity for understanding it. We should at an appropriate time, possibly in the new year, take this report as a central theme and have some sort of engagement on it. I like the way the Seanad is now embracing having external people come in to talk to us. We do not always need to be talking to ourselves. That is part of this new reform of our Seanad. We have this facility here and this issue is an important one for us to look at. I ask the Leader to consider that. This morning, I also want to welcome the Animal Welfare Strategy 2026-2030 and commend the Minister for agriculture, Deputy Martin Heydon. What is important is that this strategy sets out reasonable, fair and objective targets. The important thing is that it will empower and fund local authorities in their pursual of the animal welfare strategy. The funding is the critical point. I acknowledge the work the Minister, Deputy Heydon, has done and the collaborative way he conducted the work on this strategy. That was very important and he worked very effectively with the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Agriculture and Food. It is important that we acknowledge that. I also thank the Leader and his office for agreeing to facilitate the Minister of State, Deputy Grealish, to come here this afternoon to speak about Food Vision 2030. That is central to our food security and I look forward to a meaningful engagement on that later this afternoon. Finally, I thank Teagasc, which gave a breakfast briefing to Oireachtas Members this morning in relation to its remit as Ireland's agriculture and food development authority. Critically, it spoke about farm succession. We know that 50% of all farmers are now 59 years of age or older. Succession and inheritance are critical in agriculture. Coupled with that is taxation and taxation policy. We are now in the last quarter of the year but this is the UN year of the woman farmer and I do not think we should let the year go without having one more debate about women in agriculture and women who are central to rural life in our country. Before the year ends, we should have a meaningful engagement on that and perhaps ask some of the Ministers who are involved across the sectors of rural development and agriculture to come to the House to discuss that important topic."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Chris Andrews Last week, I was part of a delegation that visited Cuba, along with Jonathan and Aaron Smith. We met with assembly members and visited hospitals to see for ourselves the dire situation facing ordinary Cubans due to the US blockade and sanctions. Ireland and Cuba have a lot in common. Both of us have big, powerful neighbours and both of us have a real desire for unity and self-determination. It is clear from what we saw that Cuba is facing a genocide. It is a silent genocide but a genocide none the less. So many Cubans are starving in the street due to the US sanctions. There are no bin collections and rubbish is piling high. Residents are picking through the increasingly large piles of rubbish on every street corner. There is no public transport. Water treatment is limited. There are severe medicine shortages. There are long power cuts that impact everybody. The power cuts are severely damaging the hospitals and their equipment. In the neonatal units we saw baby incubators that cannot be used, which means doctors have to make harrowing decisions about those newly born children. Many spare parts cannot be got for vital medical equipment. Scanners and X-ray machines are left unused and stored away because of the shortage of spare parts. Cuba has plenty of doctors and nurses but they have no medicines, so when you visit a doctor or a hospital, they can tell you what is wrong with you but they cannot give the medicines to cure that or fix you. They can only tell you how long you will be in pain or how long it will be before you die. That is the reality in Cuba today. We visited a soup kitchen that feeds 12,000 starving children every day. This is all because of the fuel sanctions and decades of a US blockade. Young children are emaciated and old people are dying. That is the reality for increasing numbers of Cuban people. I acknowledge that the Government voted against the blockade at the UN General Assembly. This is really important and welcome, as is the aid. I would like it to be more but it is important that the vote every year is supported by Ireland. Equally, Ireland needs to build on that vote and challenge the blockade - not simply go in every year and vote against the blockade. We need to do more, be more active and challenge that narrative and the fact the blockade somehow continues. The Cubans have incredible resilience and a determination to protect their self-determination. The revolution will continue long after Trump and the blockade are gone. Ireland needs to up its activity and support for Cuba and support ordinary Cubans who are suffering as a result of the US blockade."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Frances Black","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Frances-Black.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Frances-Black.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Frances Black I warmly welcome the Government's decision to establish a new body to examine the constitutional future of this island. I particularly commend the Taoiseach on taking it. This is the most significant decision taken by an Irish Government since partition on the question of our shared future. For the first time, the State will do the serious work of research and preparation, for which we have been calling for a very long time. It will involve preparation on the law, the Constitution, health and education, the economy and costs, security and flags and symbols. That is exactly the kind of careful, honest groundwork people have been asking for. It really sends a positive message to everyone on this island who hopes for a new Ireland. It sends an equally important message to those who do not yet share that hope, including our unionist and Protestant neighbours. By placing every option on the table, including the status quo , the Taoiseach is saying clearly their voice matters and they are invited in. I welcome that. I would like to mention a few people who played a role in bringing us to this point. I thank Ireland's Future and the many civic voices who kept this conversation alive and continue to do so. I thank colleagues across all parties, including the Minister of State, Deputy Neale Richmond, and the Cathaoirleach, who has done phenomenal work on this. I thank Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh, Senator Patricia Stephenson and other members of the Good Friday committee whose July 2023 report and other reports have set out a very thoughtful pathway towards a new Ireland. I particularly thank the secretariat of the Good Friday implementation committee. I also give a huge thank you to those from civic unionism and the Protestant community who have had the courage to step into this debate. People like Reverend Karen Sutherman, Claire Mitchell, Ben Collins and the Belfast Women's Assembly, as well as the trade union movement, brought the voice of working people to this conversation. This decision is a huge opportunity to reshape our national conversation. It moves us from slogans to substance and is future-focused, which matters most of all to the young people, North and South, who will live longest with whatever we build on this island. The challenge now is to make space for everyone - unionist and nationalist, Protestant and Catholic, people of every faith and none, as well as the new communities that have chosen Ireland as their home. A new Ireland, if it comes, must belong to all of them. I ask the Leader to arrange a debate in this House on the new body so that the Seanad, which has always had a voice for the North, can play its full part in this conversation."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Noel O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Noel-O'Donovan.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Noel-O'Donovan.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Noel O'Donovan I have raised in this House a number of times the provision of respite for people with disabilities across west Cork, which has been a very topical issue in recent weeks. We have seen peaceful walks and a real outcry on the need for solving the respite issue once and for all in west Cork. I put on the record my appreciation to CoAction, to the board and leadership team, and to the HSE for its engagement with myself and families in recent weeks to try to solve this, once and for all, and put a clear plan in place. I am delighted that a town hall-type meeting is taking place tomorrow night in Bantry with the HSE, CoAction and parents who are directly affected by the provision of respite in west Cork. I am aware of a structured positive plan that is going to be put in place to deliver respite across properties in west Cork. This is a real sign of positive movement for CoAction, an organisation that has brought great care to the people across west Cork and has a positive future in engaging with the HSE. In particular, I thank all those involved. However, the time for talking is nearly finished. We need to see delivery on these projects. I am aware that a number of these projects will make asks of the HSE at a national level, of Departments and of the Government. When these asks come, it is important that they are supported. We have had years of lack of respite in west Cork and parents have had enough. I have mentioned how solicitors' letters had to be sent to provide this level of action. The time for delivery is now. It is about listening and engaging, and that is what tomorrow night's meeting in Bantry is going to be about. I welcome this and urge action thereafter. I thank the House for listening to these matters when they have been raised. I am hopeful that after tomorrow night we will see real action."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-O'Reilly.S.1989-10-01","memberCode":"Joe-O'Reilly.S.1989-10-01","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Joe O'Reilly The Leader will agree, as will colleagues around the House, that it is very important for our well-being and the security of our State that we have a highly motivated and satisfied An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na at any given time. I was very disturbed to learn from the recent Garda Representative Association, GRA, conference that there is quite a high level of discontent, to the extent that 4,182 garda\u00ed are prepared to take industrial action around breaches of the working time directive and the number of hours they are being asked to work. They have appealed to Commissioner Kelly to deal with this. I ask the Leader to speak with the Minister for justice to convey to him the need for this matter to be rectified by him and his good offices. We do not want the threat of work to rule by garda\u00ed from 10 November to 14 November, which I believe are the dates in question, to transpire. More importantly, we do not want this underlying discontent and demotivation to exist. We need our garda\u00ed to feel highly valued at all given times and not feel they are being abused. They allege and state that the working time agreement and the European working time directive are being breached."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aubrey McCarthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Aubrey McCarthy I raise today the number of people who are dying in the homeless community. Last week, I was contacted by RT\u00c9 about another body that was found in a recycling facility in Clondalkin. That is the second body to be found at the facility since July. I spoke in this House previously about Andrew Haire, who had been using homeless services and was found at that facility. From the investigation, Garda believe he climbed into a bin to get some sleep and to be safe and dry. We also recently lost a homeless lady who was a former librarian from D\u00fan Laoghaire. She ended up homeless on the street due to circumstances out of her control. When you hear about these deaths, you realise that the statistics we talk about are nearly 100 nationwide, but they are individuals. The Dublin Region Homeless Executive, DRHE, has said that 46 people using homeless services have died so far this year. The problem here is that reporting is not mandatory, so the real number is likely higher. In 2021, Dr. Austin O'Carroll, who is a champion of homeless services from the medical side, wrote a report for the DRHE on deaths among homeless people. He recommended a review after every death so that we could learn whether it could have been prevented. The follow-up research was dropped, and that report is sitting somewhere on a shelf. In five years, we have done nothing with it. I have mentioned several times before my work at The Lighthouse. Every day, I see 200 to 500 people looking for hot food, clothes, a doctor and somebody who knows their name. Prevention starts with services like this. I ask the Leader to invite the Minister for housing into the House to explain why Dr. O'Carroll's recommendations have not been implemented, and to commit to a proper review of every homeless death. They are vulnerable, marginalised people and many of them are and were my friends. Many of these deaths could be prevented, so we should stop treating them as inevitable."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Duffy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Mark Duffy Today, I raise the issue of connectivity in rural areas of Ireland, particularly in my home county of Mayo. Keenagh in County Mayo is a rural area that has had ongoing challenges relating to cellular and landline connectivity. There are concerns among residents there about the proposed removal of copper wire landline connections. The worry and risk in this community is that in the event of a storm, outages, extreme weather events or different faults, there would be vulnerable users in houses who are reliant on panic alarms and different alarms that are there to help in a time of emergency. This is causing grave concern and risk. I have worked with residents in Keenagh to address different faults and try to improve cellular connectivity. I have raised cellular and landline connections regularly. We must ensure our vulnerable users and residents across rural Ireland are connected in a resilient fashion, and not just with fibre. I welcome the opportunity for a discussion here in the House on cellular and landline connectivity and resilience for rural Ireland. It is important that areas like Keenagh are protected and that vulnerable users in particular are protected and connected."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sharon Keogan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Sharon Keogan I rise to address the absolute horrors exposed in the High Court this week regarding Tusla. We heard of a 16-year-old boy vomiting up nearly 40 bags of crack cocaine, who is still missing, and a 17-year-old girl who was subjected to an industrial scale of sexual exploitation, with taxis picking her up directly from the front door of her State care placement. This is no longer a crisis of funding; this is a total moral collapse. Tusla's budget has climbed to an unprecedented \u20ac1.4 billion. It is a wake-up call that this agency is completely unfit for purpose and entirely rotten and that it must be abolished and remade from the ground up. Tusla's own audited accounts prove that it has become an administrative monster. It spends over \u20ac70 million a year just on office and administration costs. This includes over \u20ac13 million that is handed to commercial landlords in rent. A staggering \u20ac43.8 million is siphoned out of child welfare annually to fund skyrocketing legal fees. Meanwhile, the safety net has collapsed. Half of our 26 special care beds are locked shut because Tusla cannot safely staff them. Instead, this agency pours \u20ac38 million into private landlords and hotels through special emergency arrangements alongside \u20ac359 million for independent for-profit placement providers. Tusla has openly admitted that it has no idea how much of that \u20ac359 million is being pocketed by private executives as corporate profit while children are left to the wolves. We are starving the front line to enrich external asset holders, legal teams and private care companies. This is State-sanctioned neglect. Children do not consent to chaos. They should not be subjected to a system that acts as a conveyor belt for exploitation. We do not need another review, committee or policy tweak. We need a Minister who will come into this Chamber. The Minister has not appeared in this Chamber for a Commencement matter since the start of this new Seanad. The Minister needs to step up. She needs to dismantle this failed privatised bureaucracy and build a child protection system that actually protects people. The testimony that Senator Aubrey McCarthy gave this morning about homeless people dying on our streets should be enough to bring down this Government. The neglect of our children in State care should be enough to bring down this Government. However, it is not because the Government does not care."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Garret Ahearn I thank all of the Senators for their contributions. Senator O'Loughlin spoke about the US elections that happened overnight. There was obviously a massive wave of blue right across the country, including in states such as Texas that no one would have predicted going Democrat a number of months ago. I hope this will be an opportunity to reset and enhance our relationship with the US. It is obviously a real success for the Democrats but we have to wait to see how the President will react. Elections in America obviously have knock-on effects and importance for our country. The Senator also spoke about the transfer of functions with regard to the Multi-Unit Developments Act. I will speak to the Minister to see if we can get some timelines on that because, as the Senator herself outlined, it is important and people are waiting for it. With regard to the GAA's Movember Ahead of the Game initiative, it is another one of those things that the GAA does very well to support people, particularly young people, in relation to their mental health. That is always to be commended. Senator Manus Boyle spoke about the importance of carers and the lack of carers in the north west. It has a huge impact on families and puts them under pressure. If carers cannot be found or sourced, it is very hard for families to put a plan together to care for their loved ones. I will ask the Minister to come in for a debate on carers, as the Senator has suggested. The Government has made a lot of commitments for the next five years. Some have already been done but more needs to be done and will be done. A debate on that matter would be timely. Senator Victor Boyhan spoke about the report that the centre for justice and law reform has just published on integrity in our electoral system. I have not read the report yet but I plan to. It is important because, across the world, we see how elections can be vulnerable to outside acts. We are no different and we have to take that seriously. Obviously, we potentially will not have elections for a number of years. We certainly will not have local or European elections for a number of years. There will be changes. We have had discussions regarding the local democracy task force. There is an opportunity to have a debate on the digital aspect. I thank the Senator because, in fairness to him, he has been pushing for a debate on Food Vision 2030 for a while now. In fairness to the Minister of State, Deputy Noel Grealish, as well, he is always very accommodating and good. He will be in here this afternoon to discuss that. Senator Chris Andrews spoke about his visit to Cuba and outlined the harsh reality of what sanctions and blockades did to innocent individuals. As the Senator said, Ireland has always voted the right way, if that is the way to put it, at the UN General Assembly and will continue to do so but that does not mean we cannot do more. We can and should do more in terms of diplomacy. Every time we go to America, we need to talk about these things. I know the Minister for foreign affairs and the Minister of State with responsibility for the diaspora and overseas aid, Deputy Neale Richmond, always do. We send overseas aid to Cuba. I know the Senator's concerns are genuine. Visits like his are always very helpful because having seen an issue at first hand gives us credibility when talking about it when we come home. I will take that on board and speak with the Minister. Senator Frances Black spoke about the constitutional future of Ireland. I spoke about this yesterday as well because it was raised by Senator Conor Murphy. This is an opportunity not to talk about division within our country, but to talk about possibilities and opportunities, not just for the Six Counties of Northern Ireland, but also for the Twenty-six Counties in the Republic, and about how we see that future. The Fine Gael Party is publishing a report on a unified Ireland at the weekend; the T\u00e1naiste will be publishing that report. As the Senator has said, what is really important is that everyone is starting to come on board with the idea of having a realistic conversation about what a unified Ireland would be. It is not simply about a vote but about what we actually want to represent a unified Ireland as. I will speak to the Minister and see if we can have a debate on that. Senator Noel O'Donovan spoke about respite for people with disabilities in Cork, particularly west Cork. He has been a huge advocate for this for a long time in this House. He has spoken weekly about the challenges people are facing. That co-action group has put in an awful lot of good work. It is important that people be heard. That meeting with the HSE in Bantry is a real opportunity for everyone to have their voice heard and for action to be taken on the back of that. I know the Senator will make sure that that meeting will not just amount to people talking but that there will actually be delivery on the back of it. I know he is hugely passionate about delivering much-needed care for people with disabilities in west Cork. Senator Joe O'Reilly spoke about Garda confidence, well-being and motivation. That has been a challenge not just this year, but over the last number of years. We have seen a number of garda\u00ed, particularly young garda\u00ed, leaving the force because of challenges in the workforce, conditions and difficulty in moving from one place to another. We have an almost record number of garda\u00ed across the country. They are coming through Templemore. I see it every 12 weeks in Tipperary. We have record numbers coming through Templemore. It is certainly not for lack of investment but the Senator is right - they are working long hours. There are reasons for that, especially this year with the EU Presidency and the Trump visit. They will always do it because it is the right thing to do, but we have to remember that it is a real challenge for them. I will speak to the Minister on the matter, as the Senator requested. Senator Aubrey McCarthy spoke, as he always does, about homelessness and people dying on the streets. I will speak to the Minister about coming to the Chamber, that report on preventing homeless deaths, and doing an individual report on each homeless person who dies in the street and how that death could have been prevented. Senator Mark Duffy spoke about cellular and landline connectivity. Anybody who lives in rural Ireland will understand the challenges with this but it is a real challenge for vulnerable people, particularly those who live on their own. The Senator spoke about Keenagh in Mayo, where there can be extreme weather, which has a huge impact. In the last ten years, the Government has invested hugely in broadband at a time when most people were not in favour of doing so. That has made a huge difference in terms of connectivity, particularly in rural Ireland. However, there are spots across the country, including the one the Senator highlighted in his own constituency, that need to be supported, prioritised and invested in. I will see if we can have a debate on that. Finally, Senator Keogan spoke in relation to Tusla and outlined a lot of money that is spent by Tusla on what could be perceived as money that could be put somewhere else. We have a committee on children which the Senator is on, and I am not saying that we should set up another one. I presume that Tusla gets invited into that committee on a regular basis to be held accountable for the decisions it makes and the money it spends. I will speak to the Minister and ask her to come into the Chamber, and we will see if we can have a debate on that. What the Senator is saying is genuine in terms of supporting vulnerable kids, and we should be doing that. Just to be clear, some of us do care, and I will see if I can get a response from the Minister to see if a debate is possible on that."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Order of Business agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"An tOrd Gn\u00f3 - Order of Business"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_12","debateType":"orderofBusiness","bill":null,"showAs":"Report of Committee of Selection: Motion","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_12","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Garret Ahearn I move: That the Sixth Report of the Committee of Selection be laid before the Seanad."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionra\u00ed ar 12.41 p.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 1.32 p.m."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sitting suspended at 12.41 p.m. and resumed at 1.32 p.m."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Report of Committee of Selection: Motion"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_13","debateType":"statement","bill":null,"showAs":"Food Vision 2030: Statements","counts":{"speechCount":14,"speakerCount":8},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_13","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Noel Grealish","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Noel-Grealish.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Noel-Grealish.D.2002-06-06","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Daly.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Paul-Daly.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Victor Boyhan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paraic Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paraic-Brady.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Paraic-Brady.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanne Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Noonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Lorraine Clifford-Lee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Lorraine-Clifford-Lee.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Lorraine-Clifford-Lee.S.2016-04-25","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Acting Chairperson (Senator Nessa Cosgrove) Cuirim f\u00e1ilte roimh an Aire St\u00e1it. T\u00e1 deich n\u00f3im\u00e9ad aige."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Noel Grealish","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Noel-Grealish.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Noel-Grealish.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine (Deputy Noel Grealish) Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an Chathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach agus na Seanad\u00f3ir\u00ed. T\u00e1 \u00e1thas orm a bheith anseo don \u00f3c\u00e1id speisialta seo. Mar a d\u00fairt m\u00e9, I am pleased to be here in the Seanad to contribute to this important and timely debate on Food Vision 2030. Ireland's approach to delivering sustainable agriculture and food is set out in Food Vision 2030, Ireland's stakeholder-led strategy. Food Vision 2030 provides a strategic framework for a dynamic, sustainable and innovative agrifood sector. Its vision is for Ireland to be a world leader in sustainable food systems with environmental, economic and social sustainability at its core. Food Vision 2030 was developed and is being implemented for the sector by the sector using a food-systems approach, recognising the requirements for greater policy coherence across agriculture, food and the environment. Stakeholder engagement is a key characteristic of Food Vision 2030. It is only by working together collaboratively with all stakeholders playing a role and having a voice that we can meet our challenges and make the most of our opportunities. Food Vision 2030 builds on a long-standing tradition of participative policymaking through stakeholder-led strategies for the agrifood sector with the emphasis on foresight, long-term planning and evidence-based policymaking. The Food Vision strategy consists of 22 goals grouped into four high level missions. Mission 1 is to progress a climate-smart, environmentally sustainable agrifood sector with an overall target of climate-neutral food systems by 2050 with variable progress to be achieved by 2030. There are seven goals in this mission, encompassing emissions reductions, carbon sequestration, improvements in air quality, restoration and enhancement of biodiversity, improvements in water quality, development of diverse forests, enhanced seafood sustainability, exploring the bioeconomy and strengthening Origin Green. Mission 2 is for viable and resilient primary producers with enhanced well-being. This mission places primary producers, our farmers, fishers and foresters, at the centre of Food Vision 2030. Its focus is on improving the competitiveness and productivity of primary producers; embracing the creation of value and distributing it fairly; introducing greater diversification in production systems and incomes; improving the social sustainability of primary producers across areas such as renewal, gender balance, health and safety, mental health and well-being; and wider rural development. Mission 3 is for food that is safe, nutritious and appealing, trusted and valued at home and abroad with a particular focus on the importance of trade. Food Vision looks to protect and build on Ireland's global reputation as a trusted supplier of high-quality, safe, sustainable food to consumers at home and abroad, built on sustainable steady value growth. This mission aims to prioritise coherent food and health policies for better health outcomes, enhance consumer trust in our food system, and create added value through insight, innovation and product differentiation. Mission 4 is for an innovative, competitive and resilient agrifood sector, driven by technology and talent with key enabling goals around research, innovation and talent. Speaking to my remit as Minister of State with responsibility for research and development, Food Vision recognises the potential of emerging technologies across the value chain. However, it also recognises the challenges of the equitable diffusion in science technologies and innovation across stakeholders, and the uncertainty associated with technological and social change. It recognises the importance of technology being end to end in scope, linking primary producers, intermediary producers and retailers to address real consumer needs to drive sustainable growth. The success of any strategy depends on effective implementation and oversight. My colleague, Martin Heydon, the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, chairs the high-level implementation committee whose key task is to monitor the delivery of the four missions through stakeholder collaboration. The fourth Food Vision annual report was recently launched in September at the National Ploughing Championships in Offaly. The report details good progress on implementation, with 98 actions, representing 91%, either complete or having had substantial action undertaken. A further 20 actions, representing 9%, have commenced. That is tangible, measurable progress. This year's report demonstrates the commitment of our farmers, fishers, foresters and food producers to sustainability, innovation and collaboration. The results achieved in 2025 show the progress possible when we work together to build a strong, sustainable and resilient agrifood sector. Food Vision 2030 continues to provide an effective overarching framework for the agrifood sector. Since the publication of Food Vision 2030 in August 2021, important sectoral strategies and strategic plans have been developed under its remit. Some key publications and achievements across the four missions highlighted in the fourth Food Vision 2030 annual report include publication of the agriculture, forestry and seafood climate change sectoral adaptation plan; the report of the commission on generational renewal and farming; and the national prepared consumer food centre strategy. Other significant developments include the publication of the mid-term review of the national strategy for horticulture, the mid-term review of the forest strategy, expansion of the Origin Green programme, continued investment in farm safety initiatives, the launch of the third one health national action plan on antimicrobial resistance, the continued investment in research, development, innovation and knowledge transfer, including the new Teagasc education strategy 2025-2030, and the opening of the national centre for brewing and distilling. The 2024 annual report detailed progress on environmental sustainability such as the publication of the national biomethane strategy, the launch of the farming for water European innovation partnership, and the better farming for water campaign. There were enhanced supports for farmers such as cattle and sheep welfare support, continued roll-out of the national genotyping programme, implementation of the dairy calf to beef action plan, and the launch of the action plan on women in agriculture. This is the International Year of the Woman Farmer as well, which we need to acknowledge. The highlights of 2023 and 2024 included the launch of the \u20ac1.3 billion forestry programme, the national strategy for horticulture, the national bioeconomy action plan, the national strategic plan for sustainable aquaculture development, the launch of the agri-climate rural environment scheme, better known as ACRES, as well as the development of sustainability plans for the dairy and beef sectors. Other important achievements include the establishment of the Agri-Food Regulator, the launch of the national fertiliser database, and the introduction of the national genotyping programme and the suckler carbon efficiency programme. This gives just an overview of how much has been achieved under Food Vision 2030. An excellent resource, the Food Vision 2030 dashboard, is now publicly available online. The dashboard is a key component of the implementation and monitoring of Food Vision 2030. It displays baseline environmental, economic and social data for several key performance indicators, KPIs, and provides for a transparent tracking of implementation. A mid-term review of Food Vision 2030 is ongoing. As we enter the second half of this decade, it is timely to reflect on what has been achieved and formally consider how Food Vision 2030 can evolve further to ensure it remains ambitious, focused and responsive to evolving challenges and opportunities. We decided to commence a mid-term review of Food Vision 2030 rather than begin a new strategy process because its core mission and ambitions are as relevant to the agrifood sector's challenges and opportunities today as they were four years ago when it was published. A mid-term review will allow us to update anything that requires updating while ensuring overall policy stability. The sector needs clarity and stability. It needs to know that long-term strategies will be followed through and not replaced before they are fully delivered. After the post-2027 Common Agricultural Policy, CAP, is agreed, it will be timely to consider the period after 2030. Consultation with stakeholders has been a key part of the review process. The mid-term review is expected to be published shortly. The Irish agrifood sector has faced challenges and uncertainty in the past, but it has always shown resilience and agility in responding to them. Under the framework of Food Vision 2030, the agrifood sector will continue to contribute to national and global food security while also continuing to provide a viable way of life for our farming and fishing communities. Together, we are building an Irish food system that is sustainable, resilient and trusted, one that delivers for farmers, rural communities, consumers and the environment. I am delighted to have had the opportunity to outline briefly what the Department is doing. I thank the House for the invitation and look forward to the contributions of my colleagues in the Seanad. Go raibh maith agat."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Acting Chairperson (Senator Nessa Cosgrove) Go raibh maith agat. Anois, before we proceed, I welcome to the House guests of Councillor Noel Thomas and Kyle Lohan. They are very welcome from County Galway. I did not see Deputy Richard O'Donoghue. I call Senator Paul Daly."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Daly.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Paul-Daly.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Paul Daly I welcome the Minister of State. Without starting a mutual admiration society, I compliment him on his work since assuming this role. I have been mapping his progress, travels and trade missions. The entire sector, including the Food Vision 2030 strategy and our food exports and food production, depends on our markets. It depends on the quality and quantity of our markets will always be determined by the quality of the product we are bringing to market. The Minister of State has been on trade missions, along with Bord Bia and Teagasc, from which we got a very good briefing this morning. Teagasc does a great deal of work behind the scenes to enhance production and its quality here at home. As was said this morning, the greatest problem for producers and farmers at present is input costs. Teagasc is working diligently to try to help farmers and producers reduce those input costs so we remain competitive in the world market. This is a good news story. Every few years we get a chance to talk about our Food Vision 2030 strategy. I welcome that there is a review. We are talking about it and the ongoing process now. As the Minister of State said, Food Vision 2030 is a stakeholder-led strategy. It is not imposed by the Government, Teagasc, Bord Bia or the Department of agriculture. The vision and plan for the ten years are stakeholder-led and this is vital. Stakeholders know what they need, what they can do, the targets they can achieve and the targets they need to set to push themselves to achieve them over the ten-year period. From its inception, the period from 2020 to 2030 was always going to be tricky because it came on the back of Brexit. As we are all aware, we exported food from the agriculture sector worth \u20ac20.8 billion in 2025. That represents 10% of total exports. The vast majority of those exports, though, had been going to the United Kingdom market. When this strategy was being prepared, it was hard to predict, to say the least, what direction trade was going to go in and what proportion we could retain of the market in the United Kingdom after it left the European Union and could open itself to other world markets. That is what we are competing with and this is the job the Minister of State and Bord Bia are doing. It is appreciated. I want to raise a few issues that we must keep our eye on between now and 2030. The Minister of State mentioned in his opening contribution the ongoing negotiations on the MFF and CAP. The success of our food and agriculture industry over the past 60 years was based on one thing and that was the inception of CAP. It was introduced as a cheap-food policy. It subsidised Irish farmers' incomes so they could produce cheap, affordable, traceable and high-quality food. That was what it said on the tin, as the saying goes. That was the reason the CAP was introduced and that was what it was meant to be. It has changed a lot in the meantime. Even if we keep receiving the same volume of money from the CAP - we will not even mention the possibility of a reduction in the funding because the debate about fighting hard to maintain the CAP budget within the multi-annual financial framework is one for another day - many other constraints have been put on spending the CAP money. These include environmental measures, which are all good because the food we produce needs to be sustainable too. I am not knocking environmental schemes or anything, but these obligations do put more pressure on farmers to achieve a margin when they are selling their product. If there is no margin, succession will be a major issue. The Minister of State mentioned encouraging more women to go into farming. We will find it very difficult to get females or males of any age, young and up and coming farmers, into the sector if there is no margin. It will be very hard for us to be competitive in the world market and have a margin on our food production without having it subsidised. The CAP is vital, therefore. The success story of this whole sector was based on the foundation that was the formation of the CAP in the 1960s. We have to fight hard for that. I also mention the Minister of State's colleague, Deputy Timmy Dooley. As the Minister of State is well aware, he passes my little village each morning and evening when travelling to and from Galway. Fisheries are not a major issue for me, living in Kilbeggan, County Westmeath. The Minister of State, Deputy Dooley, though, also established the Food Vision seafood sector group in February. It is vital for coastal communities because fishing is as important to those people as beef production is for me living in the midlands. I welcome the work of that group is running hand in hand with the review of Food Vision 2030 that the Minister of State mentioned. We need to keep our eye on a couple of things, and part of this is land-use strategy. We have to have the debate about land use, land-use change and forestry. There are many constraints applying to our land and that is putting serious pressure on farmers' capability to produce food. We have energy targets to meet. Unfortunately, these include something I am very worried about, namely, solar farms being put up on what I would call good quality agricultural land. Every solar farm put up on good quality land means a reduction in our ability to produce food. In a similar vein, we need to produce or plant more trees. That is part of our plan going forward. This is more land that has gone out of food production. Pressures are being put on food producers, particularly the tillage sector with regard to crop yield, because of the change in climate. Climate is changing and that is why it is so important that we can produce our food sustainably. It is very obvious to anybody who was in Ireland this summer that the area from Port Laoise to the south and the south east was burnt up. Some of our crops are not able to handle the change in climate. They will be able to do so eventually because nature is brilliant. Nature will eventually evolve the seedlings and crops to adapt to the new climate, drought, excessive rain, wind and storms but it is not going to happen quickly enough and we really need to have a debate about gene editing. I am not talking about gene modification. I am talking about gene editing to help and enhance the strength of the crop to be able to withstand the change in the climate for the sake of food production. That is basically it. The review will be interesting. People are already thinking of 2030 to 2040. Much of what is in 2030 to 2040 will be dependent on CAP 2027 and the availability of land. I cannot stress enough that we need to have the whole food security debate. They all have to be done but we cannot keep putting houses, forests and solar farms on good land, or growing grass on good land to put it into anaerobic digesters. I sound like I am contradicting myself because I am pro-anaerobic digestion but it grieves me to hear of silage grass being drawn into an anaerobic digester instead of being drawn into a shed to feed cattle to produce beef or milk."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Victor Boyhan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Victor Boyhan I thank the Minister for agreeing to come in to talk about Food Vision 2030. We shared a table this morning at the Teagasc breakfast briefing of Oireachtas Members. From the feedback of the Members with whom I spoke as I was leaving, I can tell the Minister of State that they were highly impressed that he should give the time, listen from beginning to end and do a summary of the engagement. I want to pass on that feedback because it was really important. A variety of stakeholders were at that briefing. Without recapping too much of it, one of the really strong messages was about farm succession. The Minister of State heard it himself. I also raised the issue of horticulture and how horticulture is getting somewhat lost in the bigger remit of agriculture and forestry and that is critically important. I said this morning - the Minister of State was there and heard it himself - that there are now only nine registered commercial carrot growers in Ireland. That is a shocking situation and a real pity. We talk in here about a lot of the technical aspects of agriculture, food production and food security but, for the average punter outside the Houses, one thing is certain, namely, that we are going to die and, in the meantime, we have to eat. Everyone needs to eat food so there is no division between rural and urban that some people might suggest but there are major challenges in a country with a climate like ours where we cannot extend the growing season. I acknowledge also the Government's commitment to the horticultural energy supports that have been put in place. I am thinking particularly of soft food producers, which require energy for water and irrigation. We know that even carrots need irrigation. From potato growers, we know about the importance of bringing water to the crops along with whatever energy diesel engines use to pump water so our major challenge is about resilience and climate resilience and how that is evolving so fast. It is going way ahead of us so fast. It involves how we can bring irrigation to crops, how we can embrace innovation in terms of horticulture and food production and how we can address the issues around food security. That is really important. I acknowledge, as did Senator Paul Daly, the importance of Teagasc and its work. It is the Irish agriculture and food development authority. That is what its main focus is. We have to look at training. Have we the necessary training skills for people in forestry, agriculture and food production? One does not have to be an academic to be a farmer. That is not to say it will not help but I am making the point that there are people who learned the practices of agriculture from the age of 11, left school at 12 and 13 and have owned hundreds of acres of very sustainable and proper farms. They have to be commended so let us not shift a gear such that it becomes a major academic subject. Agriculture is a science but there are places for apprenticeships in farming. There are places and opportunities in further and higher education for agriculture too but as we seek to progress policy for agriculture and horticulture, let us not leave people behind. There is a place in every facet of agriculture and food production and our educational system must respond to that important need, so I thank Teagasc for that. What is the aim of Food Vision 2030? Its aim is for us to become a world leader in sustainable food systems. We are not there yet. It is progressive and we are making great strides and over the next decade, that is what the vision sets out to do. The vision has to be fully adhered to and the temptation of course is that we go off track because of other considerations. I am really encouraged today by the Minister of State's contribution to the debate here and the fact that there has been ongoing review. As Senator Paul Daly said, this is bottom up. The stakeholders have been involved in this vision and that is clever. Everyone is a stakeholder in Food Vision 2030. We have to stay focused and deliver on the significant benefits of Food Vision because farmers are businessmen, businesswomen and families and they have to be able to see the benefits. Irish agriculture has to see the benefits. I am also conscious of the environmental considerations and sustainability. It is important that at the very core of this vision, we remember economic sustainability, social sustainability and environmental sustainability. They carry equal weight in my book and that is what a sustainable future, sustainable food and a sustainable vision have to be about. Our sustainable food system has to demonstrate very clearly that it is profitable throughout but benefits society generally. The stakeholders - the farmers, who are the primary producers - need to see benefit in terms of their pockets and their investment. Somehow I think with all our policies, we sometimes lose the ability to have clarity and simplicity in our communication strategy. When the Minister of State speaks to his officials again about this, let us always strive to keep the message simple and give absolute clarity. I suggest four areas that the next review might look at in more detail. They are already included in the strategy but I would like to see a greater focus in the next 12 months. They are the climate smart environmental sustainable agri food sector; viability and resilience for primary producers, which is critical; and food and safety in terms of nutrition because that is the key aspect. When one talks to people about food, be they producers, consumers or retailers, they will all talk about the importance of safety. The Irish public and people abroad who consume our food want to know our food is safe and nutritious and that they can trust the suppliers of our food and the value both home and abroad. We saw through the controversies in Bord Bia that people's confidence was slightly shook and it was a difficult area. Let us not shy away from it. There were significant issues of communication and messaging around Bord Bia and its brand. I always like to stick to the topic rather than the personality and, at this point, I acknowledge the very significant and positive contribution of Bord Bia in promoting our food. I also acknowledge the Minister of State's very significant commitment to trade missions in terms of all of our foods but particularly in the meat sector. I know he addressed the Asia Matters conference in Galway recently and again the feedback from that was very positive. There are international markets. We tend to look at European markets and, critically, our market in the UK, which is phenomenal. The UK is our nearest neighbour and there are enormous opportunities there that we need to look at but the Asian market matters, particularly in the areas of pork and beef, and there is great potential for expansion. We also need to support our own poultry production. There are serious concerns about poultry production in Ireland. We know the amount of poultry, particularly chicken meat, that is imported into this country. If organised, supported and structured, this country is quite capable of upscaling its poultry production. The Minister of State will have heard Senators clearly on farm succession. Women in agriculture is something I have spoken on numerous times in recent months. We have another two months to go before the end of this year, which is the UN designated international year for women in farming. We have to acknowledge the very significant role of women in agriculture. The Minister of State mentioned that this morning in his own presentation. It is very significant. I will finish on horticulture. The Government should keep the focus on Irish horticulture, its marketing and the wonderful success that is Irish mushrooms. I will say well done. It is a good news story. There is a lot to be told. We should keep it simple, keep the messaging clear and keep the focus on quality Irish and the potential for greater collaboration between North and South on the island of Ireland in marketing our good, nutritious, safe and healthy food."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paraic Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paraic-Brady.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Paraic-Brady.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Paraic Brady The Minister of State is very welcome to the House. I am very glad to have a debate this evening on food, particularly food safety and the Food Vision annual report. It was launched at the National Ploughing Championships by the Minister, Deputy Heydon. It is one of the biggest days in the calendar year for our farmers. It is a spectacle to behold to see so many farmers turn out to show that we are proud of what we produce in this country. I commend our farmers in every sector from fishing to our drinks and food. Without them we would not have the industry we have here. As the Minister of State said, we export over \u20ac20 billion and that is thanks to our indigenous farmers. I welcome the report. Agriculture has seen huge challenges since I came in here. I did not think there were as many problems in agriculture and food. Briefly, we had a TB crisis, which we have dealt with and I welcome that; a fuel crisis which affected all our farmers; a drought crisis during the summer; issues with fertiliser and fodder; and, as our colleague referred to, the bluetongue crisis. We had a number of crises through the agricultural sector. CAP negotiations have to be the number one item going forward. A strong CAP means we show our farmers we really believe in what they do. Horse Sport Ireland is in the sector. That affects everything that goes on. We have live exports now which are very important to the whole sector. Our live exports to a number of countries have ceased and it is important that we get them open to other countries because our suckler farmers depend on high-quality end weanlings which are highly sought after all over the world. It is something we have to look at and try to open new markets that are safe. Then there is cybersecurity. We have seen refrigeration attacked in a number of stores in recent weeks. It shows the challenges around the agricultural sector and the geopolitical landscape and where we fit in the world. I welcome the continued success of the agrifood sector, which is one of Ireland\u2019s greatest national success stories. It supports thousands of jobs and sustainable rural communities, and makes an enormous contribution to rural Ireland. We cannot forget the contribution that Irish farmers make. Ireland\u2019s reputation as one of the world\u2019s leading food-producing nations has been built over the generations through quality, innovation and a commitment to high standards. However, it cannot be taken for granted. Around the world our competitors are investing heavily in research and technology. Someone here mentioned Asia. On a visit to Taiwan last week I saw first hand exactly what innovation really and truly means. We need to see an acceleration in investment in innovation in the agricultural sector if we intend to sustain Ireland as a global leader in food. We need to invest in research, in technology and in training our young people, whether it be women or young people in agriculture more generally. That leads to my next point about succession and the increasing age of our farmers we have seen in recent years. People will not take up farming at a younger age, whether that is due to the farmer not giving up their rights at home or otherwise. We must invest in younger people and have supports for succession and generational renewal. That has to be key in the next CAP. If our intention is to support the agri sector, which is worth \u20ac20 billion and will grow in the future, we have to support the people going into the industry. That is our younger people and younger farmers both male and female. Someone touched on the growing area of water quality and derogation. Our product is sought after all over the world. I know that in the Asian market, especially Taiwan where we were last week, they are mad to come here and do business with us because they see the quality of our beef, pork and lamb and the high standards we produce them to. It is a market that I hope we will look to in the future. Having met the president and vice president last week, I know they are very keen to come and do business with us. We need to look at this and open it now. We have to support our young farmers with new initiatives. There are Irish companies which are growing with supports, but we need to see a greater emphasis on supporting these companies into wider markets. That includes the UK and also America and further afield. I welcome the Food Vision report. I would emphasise a point made by Senator Daly. Food Vision is stakeholder led. It has to come from the ground up from the farmers and the primary producers back up the whole way to the processors and everybody else. Someone else mentioned Bord Bia. It plays a significant role internationally in what happens regarding our exports. I compliment it on the work it has done. Yes, we have seen challenges within Bord Bia and that is reflected in the latest report but there is a standard, Origin Green, which is visible on the global market. It is a world standard that nobody else can match. The way we produce food here is seen across the world as a green, grass-fed system. I can say here that nobody else has the same passion and know-how passed on from generation to generation about how we produce our food. After being in Taiwan, I am really proud to be a farmer in this country. It gives me great pride to say we have a product that is so sought after all over the world. It is something we need to grow. We need to have an organic label for our system in world markets. Organic, and chemical free, seems to be something everyone is looking at now. There is a niche market for us in Ireland in respect of organics globally. I hope we can open up some of those other markets with trade missions. I thank the Minister of State for coming in here."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanne Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Joanne Collins I welcome the Minister of State. I too support the ambition behind Food Vision 2030 and the fact that it is making Ireland a world leader in sustainable food systems. However, we need to ask ourselves a fundamental question when it comes to this, namely, what does sustainability mean if the people producing our food cannot afford to make a living out of it and if the next generation cannot see a future for itself in it? There is a theme across the floor today, which seems to be on viability of farms and generational renewal. The viability of the family farm and regeneration of Irish agriculture must be at the heart of this strategy. Food Vision 2030 recognises the importance of viable and resilient primary producers. The commitment is very welcome but we must look beyond the commitment. We need to see beyond commitments on paper and examine the reality facing family farms in this country today and into the future. The Minister of State is aware that the OECD's report in 2026 looked at the 2024 Teagasc national farming report. Only 43% of those farms were found to be economically viable. It is quite scary when you think there are that many who are farming in this country but who will not be viable into the future. We need to seriously look at the costs that are being put on the smaller farms and not just pump our resources into the economically bigger farms. We need to keep our family farms. We have an agrifood sector that generates billions of euro in exports and enjoys a strong international reputation. As has been heard, Bord Bia does a fantastic job representing us abroad, yet export success does not automatically translate into a fair income for the farmer. We must ask whether the value generated throughout the food supply chain is being shared fairly with the people who do the hard work throughout the process of producing the food. Farmers are facing significant input costs - a point we have heard throughout the House today - uncertainty around markets, increasing regulatory demands and the practical challenges of running a modern farm. For many in farming, it is not just a business. It is a family commitment, a way of life and a responsibility passed down from generation to generation. We cannot take that commitment for granted. The second issue is to highlight generational renewal. If we are serious about the future of Irish agriculture, we must make it possible for our young people to enter farming and actually make a viable business out of it. You can see it; it is being said every day and it was said in Buswells Hotel today. You see somebody coming out of school or college and they get a guaranteed income from a job. Then you see that they might have a family farm at home. They are weighing up which one they can live off. It is unfair because in their heart, it is the family farm, but their pocket is telling them to get that secure job with a guaranteed income. We need to look at that when it comes to generational renewal. The Teagasc figures that were published show that 4% of Irish farmers were under the age of 35. It is actually shocking when you think of it. Some 38% are over 65. A lot of that 38% over 65 probably have no option to retire so they are going to keep working, because the farm needs to be worked. If they do not have somebody to take over, they are going to be pushing themselves further every year. Who is going to produce the food in 20 or 30 years if we do not have that generational renewal? Young farmers face real barriers and that includes access to land, the cost of investment, access to finance and the complexities of transferring the family farm. Even where the family has a willing successor, financial and practical obstacles can make that succession difficult. The Commission on Generational Renewal in Farming made 31 recommendations addressing issues such as taxation, the CAP - as we have heard - pensions, access to land, supports and collaborative farming. I welcome the Government's recent budget 2027 measures to strengthen the succession farm partnership tax credit. That is very important because we need to look not just at the young farmers coming in but we need to take care of the farmers who are retiring. It cannot just be a cliff edge. We need to make sure they can retire, whether it is retiring full stop or coming out of it slowly but surely. We need to make sure there are supports there for them because it can be quite difficult. What came out in the budget is a positive step but it must form part of a much broader effort to tackle the barriers for young farmers. The issue of women in farming is very important, considering it is the year of the woman farmer. Women in agriculture do an awful lot of hidden work that is not always seen. They are doing the books in the background and are out on the farm. We need to acknowledge what women do when it comes to farming. The third issue is the future of the family farm itself, which is just as important, if not more important, than the big industrial farms because family farms are in every single community, town and county around the country. They are not just economic units. They sustain the rural communities and veterinary practices in the area. Co-ops would go out of business without the farming community, as would the local shops and pubs. It keeps the local area vibrant and alive. In counties such as Limerick, agriculture remains essential to our economic identity and to keeping our rural towns alive and busy. If you take out the rural and farming side, you are left with a shell. That seems to be happening around places. You see it when a shop or a post office closes. A certain number of people come out of the village and you do not seem to have that hustle and bustle any more. When the family farm becomes unviable, the consequences extend beyond the farm gates right across the community. Therefore, we must ensure that Food Vision 2030 supports farming systems of different sizes and types, including beef, sheep, dairy, horticulture and tillage. The future of Irish agriculture cannot just solely depend on the expansion of our bigger farms and larger operators. We need fair and predictable farm incomes. I have heard that a lot. We spoke about that a lot in the agriculture committee. For not just the farmers who are farming but for the next generation, we need to have an income they can survive on. I know a lot of farming is part-time. That seems to be the future but would it not be nice for somebody to get into farming and not have to do it part-time but where he or she could do it full-time? Ultimately, we must judge Food Vision 2030 not just by the value of our exports. We need to judge it on whether it delivers for the people actually working the land, who are at the heart of this review and the project. If we want to protect Irish agriculture for the future, we must make farming viable for the people who are farming today and achievable for the next generation who are coming into farming."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Acting Chairperson (Senator Nessa Cosgrove) I thank Seanad\u00f3ir Collins. I welcome Seanad\u00f3ir PJ Murphy and his guest to the Gallery. Anois, an Seanad\u00f3ir Noonan. An mbeidh s\u00e9 ag roinnt ama?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Noonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Malcolm Noonan Yes. Tr\u00ed n\u00f3im\u00e9ad agus cuig n\u00f3im\u00e9ad."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Acting Chairperson (Senator Nessa Cosgrove) Is that agreed? Agreed."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Noonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Malcolm Noonan Cuirim f\u00e1ilte roimh an Aire St\u00e1it. I also welcome to the Public Gallery my friend and colleague, Paolo Negro, who is a councillor from the Emilia-Romagna region in northern Italy. If you want to see co-operative and organic agriculture, go to Emilia-Romagna. It is a really wonderful place that has self-sufficiency at its heart. That is something I want to speak about briefly in the three minutes I have. In particular, I wish to talk about the horticulture sector. There are significant challenges there, as the Minister of State knows. I have been engaging with Talamh Beo. I ask that the Minister of State tries to meet it at some point because it has brought forward a scheme to extend the basic income scheme to small-scale growers. I would say we should be extending it to small-scale island fishers as well. It is hugely important that we look towards food sovereignty. The point has been made about the cyberattack on the SuperValu refrigerated units. That is something that is co-ordinated and is going to affect us all right across Europe over the next number of months and years. It is critically important for our growers in Ireland. Some figures say that there are only 70 of them left; there are actually quite a lot more. A lot of them are operating in very small-scale operations and could do with support. They are vulnerable to the weather impacts. We see it with polytunnels blowing down. They are vulnerable to the heatwaves we have had and to lots of other susceptibilities of the market. We should have access to small markets like they have in northern Italy and we should be shortening our supply chains. That is critically important. I ask the Minister of State to give consideration to what the sector is looking for more broadly, not just the large growers but the small horticultural producers in Ireland. We should have more abattoirs. We should have small, independent local abattoirs all over the country and I say that as a vegetarian. We should have a market for venison in Ireland. We need to cull deer in significantly higher numbers than we are and we need a marketing strategy for what is the finest organic meat a country can offer consumers. It would ultimately bring down prices for families if we were not importing food on the scale we are. Looking towards regenerative models of agriculture, soil health and how we can over time improve water quality through regenerative practices is important. I ask the Minister of State to take that back with him and to give consideration to supporting an indigenous horticultural sector, food sovereignty in Ireland and reducing the food imports we have."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Nessa Cosgrove Cuirim f\u00e1ilte roimh an Aire St\u00e1it. I am delighted to be having this discussion. The Minister of State is welcome to this House, where you pick up so much information. As a party we welcome the four key missions of Food Vision 2030. I appreciated being invited to the Teagasc briefing. This is the year of the woman farmer and I have been in contact locally with Macra na Feirme. Young women are driving a lot of the work to be seen throughout the country and it is great that we are celebrating that and having conversations about it. As someone who is not from a farming background, I genuinely believe farmers are the custodians of our land. We see the hard work of generations of farmers and it is great to hear the expertise about farming and from an environmental point of view. We are looking to increase our markets and develop opportunities like the sale of venison. I live in the north west, where there is a huge number of deer. We need to think creatively outside of the box to ensure our food security. We can see the work farmers are doing to promote nature and farming alongside our natural world and not fighting against it and they deserve to be commended on that. In my own area, farmers make space for the hare's corner, for the curlew and for the corncrake. While these are creatures on the brink of extinction, farmers have really stepped up to the plate in this regard and moves like this need to be rewarded. We need to not just meet costs incurred but to provide payment for climate actions because we can see that climate chaos is getting worse. Farmers need to be supported in any possible way they can mitigate the affects of climate change. Farm income from counties Sligo, Leitrim and Donegal, where I live, is standing at \u20ac38,500, which is well below the national average. From speaking with my local IFA group, farmers in these areas depend so much on the areas of natural constraint, ANC, payments. When the ANC payment originally came in, it was for areas along the west coast in particular. It was originally set up for that region because farmers are hampered in areas of natural constraint. There was a reduction in that payment in 2008 that was never fully restored. Farmers need that payment. In my locality, as we do not have access to a big city, they spend their money locally. They spend in co-ops. That money is spent in our local economy when kids are going back to school or college and there are extracurricular activities. We are not near any big cities. I have been involved in politics for the last three or four years and ANC payments are a huge issue that comes up year after year. The concern coming back to me around the CAP negotiations is about the ANC payments. There has been a lot of talk here about a horticultural centre and looking at organic markets. The straw incorporation measure has seen the quality of more than 67,000 ha of land improved and the planting of more than 800,000 native trees is to be commended. We have seen the other side of that in the plantation of Sitka spruce and how that has destroyed the quality of both water and soil. It is great that we are reflecting on what does not work and recognising that we need to concentrate on native plants. I agree with Senator Brady that there is a huge appetite for organic food. We are all so proud of our food. When you travel abroad you realise nothing compares to Irish food and we are so proud of that. We are in a unique situation in that we are an island and not only is our climate great for producing vegetables and supporting livestock but we are also surrounded by the sea. We have a great opportunity here but subsidies are needed to ensure that when people go into a supermarket, Irish produce is always cheaper at source. I do not know how we make that happen but Irish produce should always be cheaper. In a cost-of-living crisis of course people are going to choose something cheaper that has been imported hundreds of miles or could be covered in pesticides. If Irish produce is cheaper, however, people will buy it. As Senator Noonan said, we need to reduce our over-reliance on imported food and grains. I thank the Minister of State for this discussion. I am delighted we had this debate at which I have learned a lot. While the Minister of State loves Gaeilge, n\u00ed he l\u00e1 na gaoithe l\u00e1 na scolb. Now is the time we need to prepare to make our island and food security more sustainable as we can see the climate chaos is continually getting worse."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Lorraine Clifford-Lee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Lorraine-Clifford-Lee.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Lorraine-Clifford-Lee.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Lorraine Clifford-Lee I thank the Minister of State and welcome this opportunity to take part in this debate on Food Vision 2030. I have listened very carefully to the contributions of all of our colleagues and we are all singing from the same hymn sheet. The mission set out in Food Vision 2030 is very important. Senator Cosgrove spoke about thinking outside the box and we need to do that. There are plenty of opportunities to do that. I wish to point out that the only commercial fisherman out of Rush Harbour, which is in north County Dublin, is catching whelk off Lambay Island for the markets in Japan and Korea. There is not much of a market for it here in Ireland but they love it in Japan and Korea. There are huge opportunities, along with venison and other items, and we need to think outside the box. We have excellent innovators in our farmers and they have adapted. As the Minister of State said in his opening statement, they are very resilient and adaptable to change. They have embraced the environmental requirements we have placed on them and implemented changes in their farming methods. They are to be commended on that. I live in north County Dublin and my constituents are the commercial vegetable growers, glass house innovators, and multigenerational farmers who have fed Ireland for generations. It is the market garden of Ireland. Farmers are the lifeblood of rural communities in Dublin. We have a sizeable and thriving rural population in Dublin. That comes as a surprise to many people but these farmers are keeping alive both those rural communities and the unique heritage of the rural part of north County Dublin. It is very important that we support our farmers. I particularly point out the young farmer of the year 2026, namely, Shane Halpin, who is a constituent of mine in north County Dublin and is a great young man from Lusk. He grows cucumbers and Brussels sprouts through Welgro Produce in north County Dublin. He is an example of a young man very open to innovating and adapting. We need to support our farmers who are coming under tremendous pressure from many different sources. My colleague, Senator Paul Daly, spoke about the CAP process and how it is nearing completion and the importance of making sure farmers have a margin. I acknowledge that the Minister of State and his colleagues in government are very aware of this but the pressures facing farmers are completely unprecedented. The energy costs, in particular for the soft fruit growers who grow under glass - I have many of them in my own area - are huge. They are facing huge pressures. I appreciate the energy support scheme, particularly for the horticultural sector. It is really welcome. The severe lack of rain during the summer put pressure on potato growers. I was helping them to do a couple of rain dances across north County Dublin at one stage looking for rain. Thankfully, a bit of rain did come towards the end of the summer. Our tillage farmers are under similar pressure with fuel costs they face. Again, the Government support is welcome but there are other pressures that my colleagues have referred to, particularly around land use. In north County Dublin, there are a number of pressures from housing. We are absorbing the housing needs of Dublin. We need houses and I am supportive of houses but a lot of farmers are coming under huge pressure to sell their land for housing. Once that land is gone, it is gone. That impacts our resilience as a nation. Senator Daly referred to the solar and wind farms coming around the country. I understand the position of some landowners who may opt to go this way but we need to make sure farming families have good decent incomes from farming so they do not opt for the solar farms as we are seeing across the country. I am very much in support of renewable and solar energy but we need to ensure our own food security. We have seen climate change impacts across the globe reducing the amount of arable land, the disruption to our supply routes due to war and conflict and flooding and wildfires. We need to make sure we secure our land and that we can look after ourselves because we cannot trust the rest of the world to feed us. We have the best of land and produce here. We need to look at it from a wider security point of view. We look at our energy and border security. Food security needs to be spoken about in the exact same terms because it leads into our resilience as a nation. We are also at risk of losing our land through many other risk factors. I pointed out the housing risk factor. I know that is not just in north County Dublin; it is in a lot of other urban areas. I appeal to the Minister of State to remember the horticulture producers in particular but all farmers are doing the State some service. They have kept us going through good times and bad. We rely on them to secure us and the health of the nation. I would appreciate all the Minister of State can do to help the farmers."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Noel Grealish","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Noel-Grealish.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Noel-Grealish.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine (Deputy Noel Grealish) I thank Senators Paul Daly, Boyhan, Brady, Collins, Noonan, Cosgrove and Clifford-Lee for their contributions. Some of the issues mentioned are not under my remit but I will speak about those that are. CAP is important; we all know that. CAP has been very good to Irish farmers down through the years. The EU has been exceptionally brilliant too. When we joined the EU back in 1973, 80% of Ireland's exports were live cattle. This Government is fully committed to the agricultural sector as well as the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine along with the Minister, Deputy Heydon, who is doing excellent work on CAP. We are under pressure. The CAP budget is under pressure. Europe is changing. There are a lot of demands on the budget. The Minister gave an update at Cabinet on Tuesday. He is fighting a hard battle on that. I hope we can get more scope and move it around a bit to go into more projects but that is a matter that has to be agreed between the EU agriculture ministers. The Minister is doing a lot of work on that. The EU has been very good to farming. At the moment, the total agricultural export is 9% of all exports from Ireland. That export is in excess of \u20ac21 billion. We export to 190 countries. We produce enough food to feed 36 million people. I go abroad and meet my colleagues around the world. I was at the SIAL food show in Paris only last week. The Senator spoke about cybersecurity. I met representatives of Albert Heijn. It has 1,258 supermarkets in the Netherlands. It was hacked. Its whole business is computerised. It can change prices up and down with a push of a button. Some 30% of its sales are online. It was hacked and the whole computer system went down. It lost millions upon millions of euro. Then we saw what happened with SuperValu only recently. I spoke with the chairs of Tesco Ireland and the UK. They told me they have put billions of euro into cybersecurity to try to keep their systems safe. That is the world we are heading into now. We are very proud of what we have achieved. The Minister is working on CAP. He is doing a good job. The Senator spoke about the Asian market. I was in Vietnam; it has only 30% food security. I was also in Cambodia. The most important thing my counterparts there kept bringing up with me when I met them and the various food distributors we supply to was security of supply and quality of the product we supply. That is where I can bring up Bord Bia, Teagasc, farm to fork, traceability and Origin Green. They are fascinated that we have an organisation called Bord Bia. The work of Jim O'Toole, Larry Murrin and his team within Bord Bia is excellent. We know the Asian market is a very important market. I was in Cambodia and Vietnam, the Minister was in Japan and South Korea and the Taoiseach was in China. He will lead a very high-powered delegation to India in January. We are concentrating a lot on the Asian market. I spoke at the Vietnamese national day, Chinese national day and I will speak at the South Korean national day this year. My influence in my role as Minister of State for food is that I speak at these events proudly of what we produce and the quality product. Stakeholders are the most important people from the farmer up to the distributor. We can trace all of that. It is stakeholder led which is crucially important. Succession is an issue. It is not just an issue in Ireland. I attended the G20 conference in South Africa; my colleague Sean Bell was with me. In the session on the Friday afternoon with the G7 - we were a guest nation of South Africa - the debate was on farm succession. It is an issue worldwide. It is not just an issue in Ireland. The agriculture Commissioner has made it his top priority. Women have a very important role to play in that. Senator Daly attended the Teagasc briefing this morning when this story was told. A woman stood up who was the only daughter on a farm. She farmed the farm but at the end of the day, it was not left to her; it was left to her nephew because a woman should not get a farm. Going back 50 or 60 years, that was a thing at the time. It is changing now. In 2024 and 2025, the winners of the young farmer of the year were women. I had the pleasure of presenting the 2025 award to a lady. They have a huge part to play. They are very interested in farming. Talking of succession, I did the Mountbellew Agricultural College awards last year and will do so this year as well. I hope to have good news for Mountbellew Agricultural College and Gurteen College. We have to support the colleges. They teach the young people and bring them in. Young farmers are changing. They are not like the old traditional farmer. They are using new technology. When you visit a farm run by a young person, he practically runs it from his iPad. It is amazing. The Senator spoke about at the Teagasc event this morning about getting up at 2 a.m. to see if a cow was calving or if a cow was sick. You just look at your device now and it will tell you about the cow. That is technology. That is why we have to make farming attractive and viable. The Senator spoke about the small farmer. When I was growing up, there were 17 dairy farmers in my area to the east of Galway city. Now there is only one dairy farmer. He milks over 400 cows. At that time, the 17 farmers used to milk about 25 to 30 cows and while it was viable at that time, it is not now. The Senator talked about trying to keep the family farm. As I said at the Teagasc briefing this morning, these two young brothers have taken over a lot of the small family farms. They have not bought them but have rented them. The farm is still being farmed. Unfortunately, it has gone to the stage where it is not viable on small farms for a wife and kids or a husband and kids or whatever to be reared. They have to work. That is what happening with the small farmer. The Government is fully supportive of the small farmers and is doing a lot of work on the farming. Organics is a new thing. I was very interested. I presented the organic awards at the Bord Bia head office recently. Dunnes Stores won an award. A few other companies won awards as well. I am always impressed when I go into Dunnes Stores. They have the organic section. I always go to that section. I actually think that organic food is a lot nicer than the other food. I mean no disrespect to the other producers of food but I always buy the organic food. Dunnes Stores won an award. I like the organic carrots. I know the issue of the carrot farmers was raised in this House. There were ten of them and it is now nine. I think we are producing enough carrots in Ireland at the moment to keep the Irish market going. We have put in a lot of supports. Horticulture is not under my remit but under that of the Minister of State, Deputy Collins. We gave grants of \u20ac15 million last year to the horticulture sector. We know there are challenges out there. We know that there is pressure there. We brought in the fertiliser support scheme, which is worth \u20ac40 a tonne. I believe it is from 1.5 tonnes up to 100 tonnes. We have brought in the fuel support scheme. The National Strategy for Horticulture 2023-2027 provides a roadmap to facilitate the further development of the sector. As I said, agriculture is critically important. I was also present in Cork where I gave the keynote address for the European meeting on organics. As Senators know, we hold the Presidency of the European Union. I was delighted when Kay O'Sullivan won the European organic farmer of the year award. I had a good discussion with her. I will look back on the transcript and read what the Senators have raised. Some of them are under my remit and some are not, but I will pass them on to the Minister of State, Deputy Collins. Fisheries is important. Other Senators have mentioned that. I have been in Donegal fairly regularly and I have seen a lot of these massive trawlers tied up. It is a challenge. It is mostly dealt with through Europe. I know the Minister of State, Deputy Dooley, has done an awful lot of tremendous work on that in Europe. It is important for the coastal communities that we keep the fishing industry alive. I thank everybody for their contributions. Since my appointment as Minister of State, I have learned a lot on agriculture, Bord Bia and Teagasc. I forgot to mention Teagasc. Teagasc does excellent work. Senators have seen that this morning. I think most of the Senators were at the presentation this morning."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionra\u00ed ar 2.43 p.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 3.21 p.m."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sitting suspended at 2.43 p.m. and resumed at 3.21 p.m."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Food Vision 2030: Statements"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_14","debateType":"billReport","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/19","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/19\/seanad\/4_sub","houseCode":"seanad","stage":"4_sub","isBillStage":false,"showAs":"Media Regulation Bill 2026: Report and Final Stages (Seanad)"}},"showAs":"Media Regulation Bill 2026: Report and Final Stages","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_14","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Evanne N\u00ed Chuilinn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Evanne-N\u00ed-Chuilinn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Evanne-N\u00ed-Chuilinn.S.2025-01-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Chathaoirleach I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Thomas Byrne, and the officials from his Department."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Bill received for final consideration."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Chathaoirleach When is it proposed to take the next Stage?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Evanne N\u00ed Chuilinn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Evanne-N\u00ed-Chuilinn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Evanne-N\u00ed-Chuilinn.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Evanne N\u00ed Chuilinn Now."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Chathaoirleach Is that agreed? Agreed."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question, \"That the Bill do now pass\", put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionra\u00ed ar 3.22 p.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 4.01 p.m."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sitting suspended at 3.22 p.m. and resumed at 4.01 p.m."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Media Regulation Bill 2026: Report and Final Stages"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-11-04\/debate\/dbsect_15","debateType":"debate","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/96","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/96\/seanad\/2","houseCode":"seanad","stage":"2","isBillStage":true,"showAs":"Harassment, Harmful Communications and Related Offences (Amendment) (No. 3) Bill 2026: Second Stage (Seanad)"}},"showAs":"Harassment, Harmful Communications and Related Offences (Amendment) (No. 3) Bill 2026: Second Stage","counts":{"speechCount":19,"speakerCount":12},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_15","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eileen Flynn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eileen-Flynn.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Eileen-Flynn.S.2020-06-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robbie Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gareth Scahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sharon Keogan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanne Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Frances Black","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Frances-Black.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Frances-Black.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patricia Stephenson","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach The combined opening speeches of the proposer and seconder shall not exceed 16 minutes. All other Senators will have six minutes and the Minister will have 15 minutes. The proposer will have five minutes in which to reply. Cuirim f\u00e1ilte roimh an Aire."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eileen Flynn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eileen-Flynn.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Eileen-Flynn.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Eileen Flynn I move: \"That the Bill be now read a Second Time.\" The Civil Engagement Group is very proud to bring forward yet another piece of legislation that will improve people's lives on social media. I am proud to stand in front of the Minister this evening with a Bill to amend Coco's Law. We have worked on this legislation for the past 18 months. I thank Corey O'Hara for all his hard work. I also thank the solicitors from the Oireachtas for all of their hard work on this very important legislation. There are three really important strands to the Bill. They are: reduce harm and protect victims; empower victims and create a clear pathway to justice; and empower the courts when it comes to harmful technology. For us, this legislation is straightforward. It mostly protects women and children, although we recognise that men can also be victims of online abuse. How AI works in Ireland and beyond is that people can up inappropriate images of children, men, women or anybody that they want to abuse on social media. Before all of the scandals came out about Grok, we were working on this important legislation. It follows on from the child trafficking legislation that we brought forward to the House, which I am proud that the Minister is bringing before the D\u00e1il. I am not going to talk for much longer. In my opinion, this is very clever legislation that will amend Coco's Law. It is not about reinventing the wheel; it is about using what we have to implement a better justice system for all people who are impacted by inappropriate images on social media."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Alice-Mary Higgins I commend Senator Flynn and her office on leading on this Bill. They have previously been very active on the proper and appropriate labelling of child sexual abuse material. The potential negative impacts of the commercial models within some social media platforms and providers is something Senator Ruane and I highlighted when the data protection legislation was going through back in 2018. Section 30 of that legislation, which, unfortunately, has never been commenced, was specifically designed to tackle the commercial targeting of children through micro-profiling. There are also other measures that we highlighted over the period. When the scandal relating to Grok arose about a year ago, the initial instinct of the Minister of State, Deputy Smyth, that it was a criminal matter was correct. We were then told that the way Coco's Law was being interpreted in the context of relating to a person who distributes, publishes or threatens to distribute material and that this did not allow for the pursuit of platforms or publishers. Grok is only one of the instances of the kind of deepfakes and nudification apps we have seen. It is my view that if it is a situation whereby, in response to a prompt, Grok produces a nudified image of a woman or child in the public space, Grok is in fact distributing that image. Our laws should have been used in a stronger way at that time and applied more directly in terms of this being considered a criminal offence. In any event, the legislation that is being put forward today is designed to ensure that any perceived loophole will be being addressed. The Bill before us addresses a number of things in very particular ways. It includes a specific definition of what constitutes a deepfake intimate image in order to ensure that the current prohibitions in relation to an intimate image remain as they are and that there is no perceived dilution or even a perception that, previously, what was considered an intimate image did not include a deepfake intimate image. That categorisation remains intact, but it includes, for useful purposes, a specific categorisation of deepfake intimate image as an additional definition that is useful in terms of the application of the law. The Bill contains certain provisions in respect of the anonymity of victims. Crucially, it also contains measures in relation to the platforms, providers and companies that offer these services. The Bill makes it very clear that actions can, should and must be taken. If we are serious about tackling the abusive use of deepfake images of people that are used without their consent - because consent matters - then we need to ensure that we tackle the companies and not solely the individuals who may, for example, produce images by means of a prompt. It is important that the penalties in this legislation match those in Coco's Law. However, the Bill also introduces a new category and a new set of responses that Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n would be empowered to employ in respect of the platforms, publishers and companies that are in many cases facilitating and profiting from the production or the threat of production of these kinds of images. When debates of this type take place, there is often a tendency to point towards the EU and the legislation it has brought forward. In that context, I want to touch on a couple of the reasons that what we have in terms of EU legislation in respect of tackling the companies to which I refer falls short. The AI Act is framed very much in terms of a product safety rule book rather than the criminal law. Much has been said about Article 50, which came into force in August, in terms of the requirement for the labelling of deepfake images, but it is not an issue for people to know that they are consuming deepfake images. This is also not solely a matter of disinformation, even though we know that deepfake images have been used in terms of spreading political disinformation and interfering in elections. None of this addresses the harm such uses of AI do to individuals who may have been nudified, intimidated or personally targeted, regardless of whether the content is labelled as a deepfake. None of that is addressed by the simple matter of labelling. Even when we go to the political space, the political damage done to public figures through nudification and the creation of abusive images, of which multiple examples could be given, is not solely a matter of disinformation. What is done to those figures is matter of intimidation. It is to intimidate people to prevent them from participating in the public space. That is alongside its use for direct abuse and objectification, particularly of women and children. There are loopholes in terms of general-purpose AI models under the current AI Act. I have to flag as an extremely serious concern the discussion that is happening right now in relation to the digital omnibus. One of the crucial decisions that will be discussed and made during those negotiations is the decision as to whether access will be given to personal data, which would include biometric personal data. There is heavy lobbying to provide access to personal data for use in the training of AI models. Looking at the irresponsibility with which many of the major companies proposing AI initiatives and many of the largest actors in this sector have acted and the idea of giving access to personal data for the purposes of training AI, which has been shown to be being deployed in a \"move fast and break things\" model rather than through responsible action being taken, while I know this is not directly within the Minister's remit, I would urge the Irish Government to take appropriate action to make sure that Ireland does not support or facilitate a watering down of personal data protection or the removal of consent requirements for the use of personal data simply to facilitate the commercial development and training of AI models. That is crucial. The very fact that this is being lobbied for is, in itself, a concern. I look across to the United States where, just yesterday, a very strong message was sent not simply in terms of the electoral turnaround we have focused on, but in measures specifically relating to the regulation of data. In numerous states, numerous propositions got overpowering votes of support. In local communities, 70% or 80% of voters voted to show their concern at what they felt was an under-regulation of the digital and data areas. That is important context because the regulatory pieces that are happening here in Ireland very much relate to what is happening in the United States. Within the European context, we are the core regulatory centre. We are watched closely for that reason. We also have a great responsibility for that reason. I will not go into the specific issues with different AI companies but one reason we need clear regulation directed at platforms and companies is that, without that regulation, we cannot trust that they will act responsibly. They themselves are asking for regulation. It is crucial that they do not simply set it themselves. Anthropic recently proposed a draft Bill that suggested that regulators should step in on AI models that had the potential to kill more than 50 people or to do more than $1 billion worth of damage. If that is the bar the industry is setting itself, we clearly need to set a different bar, one that is in line with the promise made to the public through GDPR and in line with the public's expectation that action will be taken, an expectation we saw in the response to the great distress that Grok's nudification and that wave of apps caused. This is an opportunity. I hope that the Government will support this legislation. It is very clear. It takes existing legislation and ensures it is applicable in the context of deepfake and intimate images. It goes further, ensuring that the platforms and companies are responsible. Some of those who have provided feedback have argued that the penalties should be even higher. The criminal penalties in this section apply to the individuals who are acting. The penalties attaching to companies relate to their not blocking tools to ensure that there is not continued access to them where they can reasonably be said to be failing to act on the potential use of their services for these purposes or to be taking inadequate action or steps, which is a very reasonable bar. I really cannot see how the Minister can possibly disagree with this. It is very reasonable. I commend the Office of Parliamentary Legal Advisers, OPLA, which has worked with Senator Flynn's office, and Corey Whyte, who has worked with her on the drafting of the Bill. I see this Bill as the bare minimum. I personally think that we need to step up in a wide number of areas relating to the regulation of the use of AI and to strengthen such regulation. This is an essential and basic step in addressing this issue, which hits people at the most personal level, can create lifetime repercussions and distress for the individuals affected, and does damage to society by intimidating people away from political and public participation. I urge the Government, Government Senators and others to take action and to support the Bill. I look forward to the response. I hope that the Bill will not only be supported, but that it will be moved through rapidly because we are seeing an absolute explosion. In the main, it is not the major companies we know of but I have seen reports of smaller apps that appear to do one thing but present you with options to generate deepfake images once you go into the options menu. We need to put a brake on the tidal wave. Acting as soon as the Grok issue arose would have been better but acting now is the next best thing we can do."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Cathaoirleach Is the Senator seconding the proposal?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Alice-Mary Higgins I second it."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robbie Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Robbie Gallagher The Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, is very welcome to the House this afternoon. The Fianna F\u00e1il group very much welcomes the objectives of the Bill and will not be opposing it. We are committed to making the online world a safer place for everyone and the measures proposed here are broadly aligned with our zero-tolerance approach to domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. This Bill seeks to amend the Harassment, Harmful Communications and Related Offences Act 2020, commonly known as Coco's Law, to explicitly recognise deepfake intimate images of a person generated or manipulated using artificial intelligence. This is an important issue because advances in artificial intelligence have created new opportunities for technology to be misused, with devastating consequences for individuals and families. We have seen growing public concern following the introduction of AI-powered image editing features, particularly the Grok AI feature on the X platform, which Senators mentioned here in December last year. That technology was used on a significant scale to generate harmful and illegal material. This included the manipulation and nudification of images of women and children. What makes this particularly concerning is the speed and scale at which such images can be generated, shared and distributed. A person can find themselves the subject of an intimate or sexually explicit image without ever having consented to it and without that image having existed in reality. The consequences are very real, however. Victims can experience humiliation, distress, reputational damage, anxiety and a profound loss of privacy. Once an image has been circulated online, it can be extremely difficult to remove it and prevent further distribution. We must also recognise that women and children are disproportionately targeted by this type of abuse. It is not simply a technological issue. It is one of dignity, personal safety, consent and basic human rights. It is important to clarify what the existing law provides. Coco's Law makes it an offence to distribute or publish intimate images without consent, including when there is an intention to cause harm or distress. However, the legislation does not generally criminalise the mere creation of an image, including one generated with artificial intelligence. This distinction is significant. While the non-consensual sharing of intimate images is already illegal, a gap in our legislation remains in relation to the creation of such images involving adults. The Attorney General's advice in January 2026 confirmed this position. It also highlighted that the existing definition of an intimate image was sufficiently broad to cover digitally generated or manipulated images, meaning that the issue is not necessarily the defamation, but the need to address the act of creation. I also emphasise that the law already provides protections for children under the Child Trafficking and Pornography Act 1998. The creation of child sexual abuse material, CSAM, is an offence, regardless of whether artificial intelligence, AI, has been used to generate or alter an image and regardless of whether it depicts an actual child. Nevertheless, we must continue to strengthen our legislative response to keep pace with rapidly developing technologies. There are important developments at European level that must also be considered. The EU violence against women directive provides for the criminalisation of creating deepfake intimate images and subsequently distributing them. Ireland is required to transpose the directive into national law by 14 June 2027 and I understand that work on the necessary legislative reforms is already under way. In addition, the EU AI Act introduced measures aimed at the development and use of particularly harmful AI systems. Recent changes provide for a prohibition on AI systems generating CSAM or creating sexually explicit images, videos or audio depicting identifiable individuals without their consent, unless the necessary technical safeguards are in place. Companies have until 2 December this year to bring their systems into line with these requirements. Ireland has always been a strong advocate at European level for these protections and it is important that we continue to play an active role in ensuring technology companies are held accountable. While there are legal and practical considerations around how an offence relating to the creation of deepfake images can be effectively policed and protected, these should not prevent us from examining how our laws can be strengthened. We must strike the right balance between protecting individuals, ensuring effective enforcement and keeping our legislation up to date with technological developments. There are a number of important principles we must underpin in our response. First, consent must remain central. No one should have their image manipulated into sexually explicit or intimate material without their permission. Second, technology companies must take responsibility for the platforms and tools they provide. They cannot simply stand back when their products are being used to facilitate abuse and exploitation. Third, victims must know that there is somewhere to turn when they are in difficulty. Anyone concerned about intimate images being shared online should report the matter immediately to An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na and-or hotline.ie . Ultimately, we must ensure that the law protects people both online and offline. The fact that abuse takes place through AI or a digital platform does not make it any less serious and does not lessen its impact on those targeted. We cannot allow technological advances to outpace the provisions available to citizens. I welcome this discussion. I acknowledge the work done by Senators opposite in this space and I look forward to this legislation passing through the Houses."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gareth Scahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Gareth Scahill I welcome the Minister to the House. I acknowledge Senators Flynn, Higgins, Ruane and Black for bringing this legislation before the House. We can all agree that AI has the potential to do enormous good, but as with any advance in technology, there are always people who will find ways to do harm and damage with it. What we are discussing is particularly worrying. That someone can take a perfectly innocent picture of a young boy or girl, a teacher, a colleague or anyone and within seconds turn it into a sexually explicit image should be of real concern to every one of us, and it is. While we might know the image is fake, the damage it can do to someone's reputation, confidence and, most important, mental health is real. Senator Higgins referred to that already. We made significant progress with Coco's Law, but the reality is that technology is moving at such a pace that legislation is struggling to keep abreast of it. That is why I welcome the intention behind the Bill. It is important that we recognise the work that has already been done. With Senator Ruane, I sit on the Oireachtas Committee on Artificial Intelligence. The Minister of State, Deputy Niamh Smyth, has been actively working at European level to strengthen the EU AI Act, including on the prohibition of the creation of these images. The committee has been examining the issue and the Government is progressing legislation to implement the EU violence against women directive by June next year. Work is going on at the moment, but the important thing is that we bring all of this work together rather than end up with many different Bills that overlap or potentially create confusion. As Leas-Chathaoirleach of the Committee on Education and Youth, I regularly hear about the challenges that young people, parents, school management and even teachers are facing. Are we doing enough to educate young people about the consequences of creating or sharing these images? Something that was suggested in a policy paper launched by Deputy Geoghegan yesterday was the further expansion of digital literacy certification and more work being done on educating young people in schools, but also the working population and the general population, to make an e-learning element available to everyone. Do our schools have clear guidance on what they should do when something like this happens with deepfakes? Are we supporting young people who find themselves at the centre of this? Prevention and education have to be every bit as important as prosecution in such situations. I will highlight enforcement in this area. We can pass all the legislation we want in this House, but unless An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na and the relevant regulatory authorities have the expertise, resources and powers to deal with the offences, we will not achieve what we set out to do. I would welcome hearing the Minister's views on how this Bill would work alongside the legislation already being progressed at European and national levels and whether there are opportunities to strengthen the protections for victims without duplicating the work already under way. I welcome the Bill and certainly support the Senators and what they are trying to achieve, but this has to be about more than passing another Bill. It has to be about making sure that when people are targeted in this way, they know where to turn and where they can get the support they need and that those responsible will be held accountable."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sharon Keogan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Sharon Keogan I, too, commend colleagues in the Civil Engagement Group on bringing the Bill to the House. While I fully support the goal of stopping people using AI to harm private citizens, the Bill is slightly unworkable, full of legal issues and blind to how the courts operate. Well-meaning sentiment is poorly served by bad law. We need practical rules that work. Let us start with the core of the Bill, which makes it a crime to generate a deepfake image under section 2A. To get a conviction that carries a heavy, seven-year prison sentence, prosecutors must prove beyond reasonable doubt that the creator had the explicit intent to cause harm and act recklessly. This is where things become blurred. By using the highly subjective standard of recklessness, this Bill creates a massive loophole that cuts both ways. The whole point of biting political satire, comedy or caricature is to cause discomfort or shock to public figures. Because this text contains no clear protection for artistic expression or parody, it will create an immediate chilling effect. A satirist using modern AI tools to critique a politician could easily be targeted by a powerful individual claiming that the caricature caused him or her severe alarm or distress. We risk passing a law that powerful figures can weaponise to shut down legitimate dissent. Yes, in theory, many satirists would be exonerated but we have to acknowledge that at this moment in time, the process itself is a punishment. Furthermore, this Bill creates deep confusion when mixed with existing law. We must remember that Coco's Law already covers images that purport to be intimate images of a person. Under current law, distributing and sharing these harmful fakes is already a severe criminal offence. The primary loophole this Bill attempts to close is the mere act of creating and keeping a file on a private device but by forcing prosecutors to prove a person's exact state of mind, we are handing them an almost impossible burden of proof. A bad actor can easily claim he or she was just experimenting or making a parody, thereby leaving the law toothless. Meanwhile legitimate artists face constant legal uncertainty. It fails to catch the malicious operator yet successfully intimidates law-abiding citizens. Beyond these specific flaws, we must look at the wider picture. Now is simply not the time to be pushing yet another piece of legislation into the mix. A number of Bills that deal with this issue are already before the D\u00e1il. I think a Bill from Deputy Malcolm Byrne passed Second Stage in the D\u00e1il in March 2025. In addition, massive legislative frameworks are under way at the EU level. Instead of rushing this Bill through, we need to stand back and wait to see how EU laws come into effect so we can respond appropriately. This is especially true considering that the Government has yet to actually transpose the relevant EU legislation into our Irish law. Piling another unco-ordinated domestic Bill on top of an unfinished European framework will only lead to legal chaos and duplicate rules that contradict one another. The structural flaws multiply when we move from criminal law to civil remedies. Section 8A lets the Circuit Court issue identification orders to force Internet companies to unmask anonymous uploaders so victims can sue them. It sounds like common sense on paper but it completely ignores the harsh reality of our Judiciary. Our local courts are already facing severe backlogs. Flooding the Circuit Court system with highly complex emergency digital recovery applications, where local judges must balance intricate European data privacy rights against a plaintiff's claims, will cause a total administrative bottleneck. Without dedicated specialised judicial resources, this reactive policy tweak will break an already strained system. Even if a victim secures an order, we run directly into a wall of international borders. Section 2B attempts to criminalise inducing someone to create a deepfake, and explicitly states that the person being induced does not need to be in Ireland. This is an illusion of security. Irish courts have strictly limited jurisdiction over non-citizens operating abroad. Successfully identifying, extraditing and prosecuting an anonymous user hosted on a foreign server or residing outside our borders presents immense international law hurdles that this text simply glides over. It offers empty comfort to victims but does little to solve the cross-border reality of digital abuse. We must look at the most radical tool in the Bill. Section 6B empowers Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n to seek High Court orders to completely block access to an entire online service or application store within Ireland. This is basically using a sledgehammer to crack a nut and places this Bill in direct conflict with European Union law. Under the EU Digital Services Act, online platforms operate with a unified Single Market compliance framework with specific liability exemptions. A single member state acting unilaterally to institute a nationwide Internet block risks violating EU law and disrupting the Single Market. More fundamentally, blocking an entire platform because a subset of users abuses it constitutes a form of mass censorship that may directly challenge Article 40 of our Constitution and Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights. It punishes thousands of lawful users, stifles digital commerce and sets a dangerous precedent for State-sanctioned Internet blocking. True protection for victims does not come with sweeping Bills that conflict with EU law, overburden our courts and threaten free speech. It comes from precise legal drafting, explicit protections for legitimate expression and robust enforcement mechanisms that work across borders. As it stands, the Bill is slightly flawed. I commend it, I will be supporting it and I will be putting down amendments on the next Stage but I welcome the sentiment of my colleagues' Bill."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanne Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Joanne Collins I also commend Senators Flynn, Ruane, Higgins and Black on bringing this important legislation forward. I am delighted to hear that the Government is not objecting to it, which is great, because it has been brought up across the floor whether it is on the Order of Business or as a Commencement matter. It is an issue that deserves our attention because, as has been said before, technology sometimes does move more quickly than our laws can move. Technology moves so fast that sometimes it is impossible for the law to keep up with it. I know it would be nice to have it there before something happens but that is not always possible so I have to commend my colleagues on getting this in so quickly. AI has brought enormous benefits whether it is in work or when one rings up a company. Going through the AI system can sometimes be quicker than speaking to a person. However, AI brings a lot of the other side where we do not fully understand what can be done, so there are two sides to AI. In no way am I standing here bashing AI. There is a place in society for it. We just need to have the mechanisms to protect people. One of the most alarming developments is the creation of disturbing images. For a person who is targeted, the consequences are absolutely devastating - anything from humiliation to distress, anxiety and depression to reputational damage to the profound invasion of his or her privacy. Unlike many other forms of abuse, once an image goes online, it is almost impossible to rein it back in or gain control over it. What makes this particularly concerning is that a person no longer needs to have taken that intimate image, photograph or video for someone to exploit him or her. The photograph can now be taken from a social media account and potentially be manipulated and used for something completely degrading entirely without his or her consent. This is an issue that disproportionately threatens women and girls but it can happen to anyone. It can happen to boys and men. It is quite scary how easily it is done. Consent must remain at the heart of this conversation. A person's image, identity and dignity are not public property. Having a photograph online does not give everybody or anybody the permission to manipulate it into something sexually explicit. I particularly welcome the provision in the Bill that creates specific criminal offences for the creation of deepfake intimate images without consent and where there is an intention to cause harm. Importantly, the Bill also addresses those who induce or attempt to induce another person to create these images. That is significant because responsibility must not solely lie with the person who physically generates the image. Those who commission, encourage or facilitate the abuse must also be held accountable. It is fantastic to have the provision in the Bill that allows victims to seek identification orders through the Circuit Court. This is very important because 90% of the time, stuff is anonymous online and it is impossible to figure out if one is being targeted and who is targeting one. That is a very important provision to have in this Bill. Another particularly important aspect is the provision allowing the courts to order access to services to be blocked where those services are being used to create deepfake images. Online platforms cannot simply wash their hands of their responsibility. The responsibilities of the online platforms have been discussed at Oireachtas committees and in the D\u00e1il. They have a huge role to play in preventing this abuse and protecting their users. Of course, any measures taken must be proportionate and must respect the rights of users. I welcome the safeguards and judicial oversight being provided in this Bill. Ultimately, this legislation is about more than AI. It is about dignity, consent, privacy and the right of every individual to live free from harm and exploitation. We have seen how quickly technology can move ahead of legislation. We cannot afford to wait until somebody else suffers serious harm before we act which is why I am delighted to see this Bill before the House today. Our laws must recognise that abuse is not just physical. Our laws must protect people online as well, given the damage that online abuse can do. Again, I commend Senators for bringing this forward. I am more than happy to support it and am delighted to hear that the Government is supporting it too. It is very important legislation that will enable us to respond quickly to the way the world is moving. It is so important that we keep pace."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Minister for Justice, Home Affairs and Migration (Deputy Jim O'Callaghan) Ar dt\u00fas ba mhaith liom mo bhu\u00edochas a ghabh\u00e1il leis na Seanad\u00f3ir\u00ed Neamhsple\u00e1cha as an mBille seo. Is Bille t\u00e1bhachtach \u00e9 agus mar sin beidh m\u00e9 ag tabhairt taca\u00edochta don Bhille inniu, ach t\u00e1 c\u00fapla ceist faoin mBille freisin agus beidh m\u00e9 ag caint faoi na ceisteanna i rith m\u2019\u00f3r\u00e1ide. I thank Senators Flynn, Ruane, Higgins, and Black for introducing this Bill. As has been indicated, the Bill proposes to amend Coco\u2019s Law to criminalise Al-generated non-consensual intimate images and videos. I agree with the objectives of this Bill, which is why I secured Government approval yesterday not to oppose it today. Non-consensual image nudification can be deeply harmful to a victim even if no real nude photograph ever existed and even if such image is never shared with anybody else. The reality is that such actions represent a violation of bodily autonomy as the victim loses control over how their image and identity are presented to others. They reduce persons - generally women - to sexualised objects without their permission. Even if such an altered image is never shared, knowing that others have it in their power can cause significant distress to a victim. There is a common misconception that if it is not real then nobody is harmed but in truth the harm comes from the humiliation, fear and loss of control experienced by the victim. In addition, evidence suggests the generation of non-consensual intimate images disproportionately targets women and children. I say this not to diminish the fact that men can also experience this behaviour but to highlight the reality that it is mostly women and children who are targeted by these actions. They reinforce existing patterns of sexual harassment and gender-based abuse and have the potential to discourage female participation in public, professional or online spaces. The Bill therefore aligns with the Government\u2019s commitment to a zero-tolerance approach to domestic, sexual and gender- based violence which is a priority for me and for Government. Therefore, we will not be opposing this Bill today. However, as I said in my introduction, I have a number of questions with the Bill as it currently stands. The Office of the Attorney General has advised that the definition of \u201cintimate image\u201d in the 2020 Act is sufficiently broad to capture images created or altered by Al tools. An amendment in this regard is therefore not necessary. With respect to the new offences, it is not clear how the creation of a deepfake image without publication or threat of publication could cause harm to another person unless that person was made aware that the image had been created. Furthermore, the offence of inducing a person to create a deepfake image essentially makes it an offence for a person to tell another person that a third party has consented to a deepfake image of that third person being created, where such consent has not actually been provided and where there is intention or recklessness in respect of harm caused. It is not necessary for any deepfake intimate image to have been created nor for the inducement to have been directed at any specific person, which appears problematic. In this context, officials in the Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment have noted that the EU Artificial Intelligence Act expressly defines and regulates deepfakes, in terms of Al system transparency obligations. Alignment with definitions established under European law would be preferable to ensure consistency of application. Multiple definitions in national or EU law for similar terms such as deepfake are not considered helpful. In addition, officials in the Department of Culture, Communications and Sport have advised that the proposed access blocking order in section 7 of the Bill would allow Comisi\u00fain na Me\u00e1n to seek an order before an investigation has actually concluded. This would appear to run contrary to the rules of fair procedure. Having said all of the above, there are a number of developments that have taken place, particularly at EU level, which are important to share with this House, and which may affect the approach to be taken by Government in future legislative stages concerning this Bill. I should also add this is not the first Private Member's Bill introduced in the Houses that aims to criminalise the non-consensual nudification of images. In fact, it is the third such Bill. I will first turn to the current legal framework. As Senators know, through Coco\u2019s Law lreland established a comprehensive regime to address intimate image abuse, including offences for distributing, publishing or threatening to distribute intimate images without consent. The most serious offence is punishable by up to seven years\u2019 imprisonment. Coco\u2019s Law complements the Child Trafficking and Pornography Act 1998, which criminalises the production, distribution, and possession of child sexual abuse material. The other legislation that is very relevant to this debate is the directive on combating violence against women, the first EU-wide law specifically addressing violence against women and domestic violence. It was adopted in May 2024 and transposition is currently ongoing in my Department. One of the directive\u2019s most significant achievements is the creation of EU-wide minimum rules on several forms of cyberviolence, including the non-consensual production and sharing of intimate images. I anticipate the policy objective underpinning this Bill will be achieved through the transposition of this directive. It should also be noted that since I addressed the D\u00e1il earlier in the year in the context of the first Private Member's Bill introduced to address this issue, important developments have taken place in relation to the EU Artificial Intelligence Act. The EU digital omnibus on Al, which entered into force in July 2026, is a set of amendments to the Al Act with a primary purpose to simplify the implementation of the Act. However, the adopted text also bans Al systems that generate child sexual abuse material or create images, videos or audios depicting an identifiable person\u2019s intimate parts, or sexually explicit activities, without their consent. Providers will not be allowed to place these systems on the EU market unless they come with adequate technical safeguards to prevent the creation of such material. This outright prohibition also applies to deployers using them for this purpose. At a domestic level, the Al Act 2026 gives legal effect to national implementation measures to establish a regulatory framework to meet national obligations under the Al Act. This includes the designation and empowerment of national competent authorities to regulate prohibited Al practices such as the one we are discussing today. I say this because Ireland has been a strong and determined advocate at EU level to prohibit Al systems which permit this harmful behaviour. As technology evolves, so too, inevitably and unfortunately, do the methods used to target, exploit and abuse women and children. Our response must evolve just as rapidly, ensuring that our laws reflect the realities of abuse in the digital age and provide effective protections for victims. In line with the programme for Government and throughout Ireland\u2019s Presidency of the Council of the EU, Ireland is actively engaged in advancing European measures aimed at combating child sexual abuse and exploitation, including efforts to ensure that evolving forms of online abuse are effectively addressed in legislation. I was pleased to welcome the recent agreement on a new directive updating the EU\u2019s criminal law rules on child sexual abuse and sexual exploitation of children which was a key deliverable of Ireland\u2019s Presidency. This agreement was another big step towards helping us to better protect and support our children both online and offline, and bringing to justice perpetrators, particularly those who think they might evade justice because they act behind a screen or use new technologies to target children. While many of the new measures are already addressed in domestic legislation, the criminal law (sexual offences, domestic violence and international instruments) Bill 2025 will modernise our legislative framework. Crucially, this will include replacing the term \"child pornography\" with \"child sexual abuse material\" in legislation, further recognising that such material is evidence of abuse and exploitation. We are also supporting research to better understand and combat emerging online harms, including AI-generated imagery, deepfakes and other forms of technology-facilitated abuse. Many of these priorities are also reflected in our Presidency engagement, where co-operation is key to strengthening our collective responses to violence against women and children. Preparations are continuing for the transposition of the directive I mentioned earlier. This landmark legislation will strengthen protection for victims, including in relation to technology-facilitated forms of abuse, and will support a more consistent approach to preventing and combating violence against women and domestic violence across the EU. Over recent months, we have advanced a number of legislative measures to strengthen protections for victims and survivors and to support a more effective justice system. In July, Valerie's Law and Jennie's Law were enacted, thereby enhancing protections for children affected by serious family violence and increasing transparency in relation to domestic violence convictions. Reforms to the disclosure of counselling notes and other sensitive records will better protect victims' privacy while safeguarding the interests of justice. The introduction of new offences targeting the exploitative practice of \"sex for rent\" further demonstrates our commitment to protecting vulnerable people from coercion and abuse. In addition, work is continuing on legislation to strengthen consent laws in sexual offence cases, including how belief in consent is assessed. In July, I secured Government approval for legislation to criminalise the production, distribution and possession of extreme and violent pornography, reflecting growing concern about its harmful impact, particularly on young people, including the normalisation of sexual violence and the reinforcement of harmful attitudes towards women and relationships. Taken together, these reforms represent significant progress in strengthening protections for victims and survivors. I commend the Independent Senators and all the speakers in the House today on their determination, which I and the Government share, to eradicate the blight of domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. This is a challenge that requires sustained commitment across Government and society and one to which we remain fully committed."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Nessa Cosgrove Cuirim f\u00e1ilte roimh an Aire. I too commend Senator Flynn and her team, including Corey, and all the other Senators in the Civil Engagement Group on bringing this forward. We in the Labour Party are delighted to support it. As has been said, behind every manipulated image is a real person. The fact that anyone can take an ordinary photograph of a person and turn it into sexual abuse material without that person's knowledge or consent beggars belief. Just because the image is fake does not mean that the fear, humiliation and damage to someone's life is not very real. Sadly, all of us have heard the deeply upsetting stories from people who have experienced this kind of abuse. We have heard about the violation of dignity, the fear and the terror of humiliation that comes from these cases. No one should have to live with that threat. No one should have to live in fear that their image or identity can be abused, manipulated or weaponised without consent. No woman should have to face the threat of having her image, reputation or dignity violated in this way. I am delighted that the Government is letting this Bill go through because it is our job as legislators to respond to new threats to the safety and dignity of our fellow constituents. That is why this Bill is so important. The Labour Party, specifically my colleague Deputy Alan Kelly, published our own Harassment, Harmful Communications and Related Offences (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill nine months ago. That was directly after the Grok scandal, whereby a freely available AI tool on one of the largest social media platforms was used en masse to target women and girls, churning out many thousands of abusive deepfake images of real people over a period of weeks. Across the Opposition parties - I know Sinn F\u00e9in has brought in a similar Private Members' Bill - we are bringing forward constructive solutions to the problem of deepfake image abuse. It is great that this Bill is passing to the next Stage, but we really need to see the Government act on this now. The online world and AI images are not getting any better; they are getting worse. The serious proposals brought forward on this ensure that we will do right by women and girls and anyone who may be a victim of deepfake abuse. I commend the provisions on anonymity, bail and domestic violence aggravation, which are really important aspects of this Bill. I want the Government to ensure that it will not stall on it, that it will listen and react accordingly and not always be one step behind and that this will progress quickly. As has been said in all the interventions here, things are getting a whole lot worse and are not getting any better. I wholeheartedly support this and I thank Eileen."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Frances Black","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Frances-Black.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Frances-Black.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Frances Black I commend my colleague Senator Eileen Flynn and Corey, her policy adviser in her office, on their dedicated work over the past 18 months alongside the Office of Parliamentary Legal Advisers in bringing this very important legislation before this House. Senator Flynn has set out the clear structure of the Bill. It fits together to offer some protections for victims of image-based harassment, mainly women, girls and young people. These victims cannot afford to wait while technology moves so rapidly ahead. Sadly, we have already been too slow to address these technological advancements. AI tools that remove clothing from photographs are no longer rare or difficult to find. Domestic violence organisations, including the rape crisis centres, our youth workers and teachers tell us that such tools are commonly being used across the country in secondary schools, universities and workplaces and even to control women trapped in abusive relationships. It is horrific to think of it. Some of us have young children and young grandchildren. I have two beautiful grandchildren, and it is awful to think what is ahead in this area. Right now, when a woman discovers that an ordinary photograph of her has been taken from social media and used to manufacture a fake intimate image, our legal system fails her at the very first hurdle. If that fake image has not been shared publicly yet, the person targeted is left in limbo with no recourse to legal remedies against the perpetrator, the platform that hosted the image or the AI tool that created it. We cannot ask victims and An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na to fight this battle one case at a time while rogue websites and smartphone apps continue to profit from digital abuse. By classifying this material as harmful online content under Schedule 3 to the Broadcasting Act 2009 and giving Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n the power to apply to the High Court for access-blocking orders, this Bill creates a mechanism to shut these reckless operators down. Where an online service knows, or reasonably should know, that it is being used to create illegal deepfake intimate images and fails to take proper steps to stop it, the High Court can order internet service providers and smartphone app stores to block access and software downloads right across the State, giving specific legal priority to protecting children from harm. Having a realistic fake intimate image created of you without consent is a terrifying prospect for many and creates a deeply troubling power dynamic, particularly for women and vulnerable young people. It can be used to blackmail, to silence or to control in a coercive relationship. In some cases a person does not even generate the image on their own device; instead, they upload a photograph to an anonymous online message board and ask, prompt or pay a stranger online to remove clothing from that image. These novel technologies are being developed and implemented so rapidly that victims of their use are left with absolutely no protection. The Bill recognises the seriousness of the creation of non-consensual deepfake intimate images by making such activity an offence. Just as importantly, the Bill recognises how deeply connected this abuse is to domestic violence and coercive control. By updating section 40 of the Domestic Violence Act 2018, this Bill requires judges to treat an intimate relationship as a mandatory aggravating factor at sentencing. We must empower victims, mainly women, girls and young people, to come forward when they are subject to this type of abuse and we need to do our utmost to protect the victims and put proper provisions in place to protect and support them. I am delighted to hear that the Minister and colleagues across the House will support this Bill today."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patricia Stephenson","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Patricia Stephenson I offer a special thank-you to Senator Flynn. She has been really consistent on addressing issues around domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. She has done it with the child sexual abuse material legislation and this legislation, and it is really important we have such consistent voices in this House. I am delighted to hear the Government is accepting the Bill. It is a loophole we currently have in our legislation. The growing use of artificial intelligence, AI, to create these deepfake intimate images and videos represents such a disturbing development in the abuse of technology, and we have to deal with it. The images and videos we are talking about are not harmless or online jokes. They are forms of sexual abuse and are designed to humiliate, intimidate and violate another person's dignity. We only need to look at the experiences of two women who have publicly spoken about this to see that. Cara Hunter, who is an SDLP MLA in the North, has been very courageous and consistent in speaking out about the deepfake sexual video that was created of her and circulated during her election campaign. It is the stuff of nightmares for many people seeking election or for elected representatives that this could happen to any one of us. The consequences for her went beyond the online world. She has spoken about men approaching her in the street following the circulation of that material or laughing at her when she was canvassing. I cannot imagine the fear or sense of humiliation and the impact this would have had on her as a young woman in the public sphere and on her wider family when she was just trying to do her job and represent her constituents. Her experience also raises serious questions about the additional barriers women face when they are trying to enter and remain in public life. I also reference Gr\u00e1inne Seoige, whom we have all seen speaking out about this issue and the deepfake intimate images circulated during her election campaign. She described the trauma of discovering what had happened to her and how, for months afterwards, she wore a surgical mask when shopping because she was afraid of being recognised. Not even wanting to leave the house with your face visible is a severe level of trauma. She felt she had to disguise herself when simply trying to go about her everyday life because of a technology that was used to violate her dignity. Neither of these women got the support they needed when they needed it and the images were not taken down in a proper manner. Despite doing everything they could, they have never found out who made those images and no one has been charged. They are women in positions of power with access to decision-makers. These are women with a degree of privilege compared with many others. If a woman who has a platform and a public voice cannot even get the help she needs, how difficult would it be for an everyday woman to get access to justice? We have much more vulnerable women of all different ages that this will be happening to and their recourse is very limited. However, their experiences and courage in talking about it publicly have shown us the enormous amount of harm that occurs when an image is created or shared. It follows the victim into their homes, their workplaces, their relationships and everyday lives. It is a form of the most grotesque online bullying. When we think about it, this is not just online; it is in every reality they live in. Senator Flynn and the rest of the Civil Engagement Group have brought forward a very important amendment that is crucial in protecting people from online violence. It recognises that consent, dignity and privacy must be protected in the digital world, just as we hope to protect them in the real world. Technology is used to abuse, intimidate and silence and we have to stop that across all forms of technological abuse. Today, I have used examples of public figures but I reinforce this is something that is insidious. It is happening in every community to people of all ages, including those under the age of 18. It is gendered and specifically used most egregiously against women and girls. If we do not look at the gendered impact of that, then we are missing a key aspect. Again, I commend Senator Flynn, who has worked very hard on this Bill. She has been a tireless advocate when it comes to domestic violence and sexual and gender-based violence. I am very proud to be sitting with her today to provide that support."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eileen Flynn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eileen-Flynn.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Eileen-Flynn.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Eileen Flynn First, I thank the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, and his Department for not stopping this Bill from moving forward today. As not just a woman but as a woman from the Traveller community, not for a minute did I think when I came in here nearly seven years ago that I would be part of two major changes in legislation in this country with one to protect our children when it comes to child sexual abuse images and materials online. I will not always be here to protect my two wee girls who are now five and seven years of age. They are going to grow up, and I want the multinationals such as Facebook, Meta and TikTok to protect them. I am privileged to sit on the gender-based violence committee, along with my colleague here beside me. We are the only two members from the Opposition from the Seanad who will be on the committee, and that is brilliant. However, as the Opposition, we always have something to give out about but it is regretful that the other Senators who sit on the gender-based violence committee are not here to share a few words on how AI is having a major impact on women's lives. Thanks be to God, I have not been impacted by it personally but by God, I have got many horrible comments about my image on social media in recent years. However, in the past 18 months, after the Minister for justice, Deputy O'Callaghan, accepted our child trafficking and sexual abuse material Bill, we went back to the office and thought about what we could do now to go to the next part. This was before the scandal came out about Grok and AI was only really coming to the surface around women and children's images. I acknowledge the Minister and other Senators in the Opposition have spoken about the EU laws but those laws do not go far enough. For us, it is a simple piece of legislation. Again, I stress we have worked on this legislation with the OPLA, which has put in a lot of work over the past 18 months. It is a service we know the Department of justice trusts. Many Senators are right that there are a few changes that need to happen in the Bill to make it best practice, because if you are going to take on a job or change something, it is better to do it right the first time round. We welcome the changes the Minister and Department are looking to make with the Bill, because it is important it works effectively. I thank the Irish rape crisis centres, Children's Rights Alliance, Safe Ireland, Pavee Point and the other organisations that did not come in behind us but instead came in beside us today to talk about this very important legislation to be passed in this country. I am extremely proud and I hope to keep going forward in bringing in legislation that is important for women and children in this country. As I said, I have two wee girls of five and seven who I will not always be here to protect. There are many mothers who worry about their kids going forward. We have to look at it and say this is the job of the State and of the multinational tech companies. With this legislation, we are making them take responsibility. We are giving a platform for victims and a pathway to justice for any person, even if they are never a political representative; it is also for ordinary people on the ground. It is a pathway and is not just the bare minimum. It is 18 months of hard work, from Corey, the OPLA and myself. I thank the Minister and the Department of justice for accepting our legislation here today."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Chathaoirleach When is it proposed to take Committee Stage?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eileen Flynn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eileen-Flynn.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Eileen-Flynn.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Eileen Flynn Next Tuesday."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Chathaoirleach Is that agreed? Agreed."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 10 November 2026."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"An Leas-Chathaoirleach When is it proposed to sit again?"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gareth Scahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":"Senator Gareth Scahill Next Tuesday at 1 p.m."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an Seanad ar athl\u00f3 ar 5.10 p.m. go dt\u00ed 1 p.m., D\u00e9 M\u00e1irt, an 10 Samhain 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The Seanad adjourned at 5.10 p.m. until 1 p.m. on Tuesday, 10 November 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Harassment, Harmful Communications and Related Offences (Amendment) (No. 3) Bill 2026: Second Stage"}]}}]},"contextDate":"2026-11-04"}]}