{"head":{"counts":{"debateCount":10000,"resultCount":10000}},"results":[{"debateRecord":{"house":{"showAs":"34th D\u00e1il","committeeCode":"","houseCode":"dail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/house\/dail\/34","chamberType":"house","houseNo":"34"},"chamber":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/def\/house\/dail","showAs":"D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann"},"lastUpdated":"2026-08-08T02:09:08+00:00","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-28\/debate\/main","formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-28\/debate\/mul@\/main.xml"},"pdf":null},"date":"2026-07-28","counts":{"contributorCount":163,"divisionCount":0,"debateSectionCount":0,"questionCount":0,"billCount":0},"debateType":"debate","debateSections":[]},"contextDate":"2026-07-28"},{"debateRecord":{"house":{"showAs":"34th D\u00e1il","committeeCode":"","houseCode":"dail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/house\/dail\/34","chamberType":"house","houseNo":"34"},"chamber":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/def\/house\/dail","showAs":"D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann"},"lastUpdated":"2026-07-18T02:09:41+00:00","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/main","formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/mul@\/main.xml"},"pdf":null},"date":"2026-07-16","counts":{"contributorCount":145,"divisionCount":0,"debateSectionCount":45,"questionCount":27,"billCount":2},"debateType":"debate","debateSections":[{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_2","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":false,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_3","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Special Educational Needs","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_2","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_3.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darren O'Rourke  I wish the staff and the Minister all the best for the summer. I know it will be a busy summer but I hope that everyone gets a break. I ask the Minister to state the number of children with additional needs who require but have yet to receive an offer of an appropriate school place for September 2026, based on her most recent meeting with the NCSE; the date of that meeting; and the measures she has taken to ensure that every child with additional needs has an appropriate school for September. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Education and Youth (Deputy Hildegarde Naughton)  I thank the Deputy for his comments and I too wish everyone well over the next couple of weeks.  An estimated 25% of students, or approximately 240,000 children and young people, have special educational needs. While the majority are supported successfully in mainstream settings by their class teacher, special education teachers, SET, and special needs assistants, SNA, as necessary, there remains an increasing need for special class and special school places for children with more complex needs.  The parents notify process has played a key role in forward planning, supporting the delivery of 584 new special classes, the establishment of four new special schools for the coming 2026-27 school year and expanded capacity in existing special schools. The National Council for Special Education has verified that some 7,860 children and young people who were notified to them by 1 October 2025 are eligible for a specialist place for the 2026-27 school year. The NCSE continues to work with families where children have come forward since then, to secure appropriate placements. NCSE data indicates there is sufficient overall capacity to meet identified demand. However, the Department recognises that places may not always arise in a preferred school or locality. The NCSE is actively engaging with these families to identify suitable placements. Approximately 7,000 of the 7,860 students have a diagnosis of autism and, given there are generally adequate places for students with other diagnoses, the focus is on new places for children with autism. NCSE data shows that approximately 75% of those who came forward by 1 October are already enrolled in school.  As in previous years, students without a school place are prioritised for access to specialist placements. My Department receives regular updates on placements and the Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan, meets the NCSE every week. I have regular engagement with the NCSE and the Minister of State met its representatives as recently as yesterday to monitor progress. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darren O'Rourke  The Minister finished on the bit I am interested in and that I specifically asked about,. What was the latest weekly update? The information the Minister has just given me was previously provided to the House on 23 April. It is now 16 July. Does the Minister have any additional information to provide to the House as of this week? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Hildegarde Naughton  There is weekly engagement with the NCSE. Since January, 584 special classes have been sanctioned for the upcoming school year. That includes 68 inclusive classes. Of the 584 new special classes, 378 are being established in primary schools and 206 in post-primary schools. This brings the total number of special classes sanctioned to date to over 4,300. The NCSE continues to work with families and schools on this. As we know, there may be more children throughout the year who will need specialist placements. The NCSE is working proactively with them in relation to that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darren O'Rourke  Again, we have those figures from a briefing we had with the Department as recently as yesterday. It is all welcome progress but the question I am asking today is what is the unmet need as things stand? How many children do not have an offer of a school place? How many children have an offer of a school place but it will not be ready for September, in terms of advancing of works? It has been reported in the media this week that an extremely high number of children will not have a place for September. Many of them are taking legal cases. The Minister can confirm or deny that. I am providing her with the opportunity but she has not done it so far. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Hildegarde Naughton  A huge amount of work is being done on securing specialist places, be it in special classes or special schools. We are far ahead of where we were this time last year. We had a budget for 400 special classes. I got increased funding in March of this year. We are ahead in relation to forward planning. There are now 584 special classes allocated. This is far more than any previous years because of the parent notify system, on 1 October. I brought that forward again this year. This enabled the Department to forward plan even better for when I go into budget negotiations for September 2027. A huge amount of work is happening with the Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan, and me. There is sufficient overall capacity to meet identified demand. There is a pathway for children to receive a specialist place or supports within mainstream settings. As I have said, about 25% or approximately 240,000 children and young people have special educational needs and the majority of them are supported in mainstream settings but the focus and priority will be on children who do not have a place and are coming into the primary school system or moving from primary to post-primary, for example. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Special Educational Needs"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_4","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Youth Work Supports","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_2","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_4","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_4.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  I ask the Minister to provide the House with an update on the commitment with regards to Opportunities for Youth: National Strategy for Youth Work and Related Services 2024-2028. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Hildegarde Naughton  As Minister for Education and Youth I am committed to supporting the workforce in the youth sector to deliver high-quality youth work and non-formal developmental opportunities for young people. Action 7 in Opportunities for Youth: National Strategy for Youth Work and Related Services 2024-2028, commits to developing a workforce development strategy in respect of the youth sector. This is to include consideration of training needs and the requirement for high-quality, accessible and inclusive youth work services and opportunities.  The Department has engaged extensively with youth workers and managers in youth organisations and is aware of the recruitment and retention challenges being experienced in the sector. This engagement included completion of a workforce survey and employer questionnaire. These were followed by 11 regional, in person and online consultations. The data captured from the consultation period will inform the development of the strategy. Important data from the consultation include: the high level of job satisfaction in the sector; learning and development opportunities; the challenging recruitment and retention environment; the varying youth worker pay scales; different contract types; and details on average and median youth worker pay. Profile data on youth workers was also captured, including their qualifications, length of employment, age range, gender and ethnicity. It is important to highlight that this is the first time this information has been sought and received from the youth work sector.  It is important to highlight that this is the first time this information has been sought and received from the youth work sector and that will establish critical baseline information for us for the development of the strategy. To support the development of the workforce development strategy, a workforce advisory group will be established. My Department is working in partnership with the National Youth Council of Ireland to agree the role of this group, including its membership. It is intended for the advisory group to have its first meeting in September. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  I thank the Minister. If she will indulge me, it is very rare I get the opportunity to speak about my life experience prior to being in here but I have been a youth worker for about 16 years or the guts of three D\u00e1il terms. The day before the general election I submitted my PhD thesis, which was on professional youth work. It asked youth workers many of the same questions that were asked afterwards by the Department. I will happily share the findings with the Minister.  Youth workers, in the main, are very satisfied but equally they are very concerned about what the future looks like because we are losing good youth worker after good youth worker to other sectors who can offer more. They can offer more in terms of pay and remuneration but also the burnout associated with the occupation is really difficult.  When the Minister says that advisory group is going to meet in September, who makes up the membership of that? The information the Minister's Department has collected is golden with regard to the sector. Will the Minister publish the findings of that survey? It would be really useful information. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Hildegarde Naughton  I thank Deputy Farrelly. I would be very happy to receive that information. It would help our data collection and make sure we are getting a really good picture of the youth work sector across the country. The work that has been under way within the Department is to try to get that profile, to really understand our youth work sector and to get feedback from them.  The first advisory group will have its first meeting in September and the terms of reference of that group will be finalised once the group is established. My Department is working in consultation with the National Youth Council of Ireland to agree the role of that group. The workforce survey data will be shared with the workforce advisory group in the first instance to inform its work in overseeing the development of the strategy. The workforce data will also accompany the strategy in the publication. So, it will be published.  While the subject of the pay and conditions of the sector has been raised through consultations, they will not directly form part of the strategy. As the Deputy knows, youth workers are not employed by my Department. They are not public servants and funding is allocated on the provision of service spaces to meet the needs of the youth population in an area. The employment of the staff, including youth workers, is a matter relevant for youth organisations and services. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  It is acceptable that data will be shared with the task force in September but I ask that it be shared more widely once the terms of reference have been agreed. It would be really useful for the academic sector and for those who are in the market of training and professionally qualifying youth workers in the field.  I have been around long enough to have seen youth work move from Department to Department. The only conclusion I can come to in terms of analysis is that the Minister has a real opportunity in her Department to map out what the future of youth work looks like, and not just for the young people. We are consistently talking about the issues facing young people and how youth work is often a response to those issues. Actually, youth work is an occupation and profession that is one of the best jobs to have but we need to make sure the landscape is there for budding youth workers to go through appropriate professional qualification programmes and that the job will fulfil them not just from a rewarding job perspective but also from a financial perspective and from the perspective of promotions and so on, right through their 20s, 30s and 40s.  I wish that group the best. I also wish the Minister's Department the best in its endeavours with that and I thank her again. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Hildegarde Naughton  It is very fitting that youth has moved into the Department of education. It is a good fit. I have met with many youth organisations across the country since I was appointed and they seem very happy with the formal education and the informal education. I have witnessed the huge expertise on the ground. This is the data we want to collect and there is a willingness there and an appetite for training as well. As the Deputy knows very well, it is so important we have the right skill set in our youth services across the country, dealing with children and young people and with trauma, and making sure we have the best, which we do, and that workers are accessing the training they require.  For example, in response to some of the calls from the sector, a bursary initiative was established in June to support eligible youth workers and youth work managers to undertake the three-year MA qualification in community and youth work, part-time, in-service programme in Maynooth University. Also, the workforce advisory group will regularly update the nation youth sector reference group, which is also currently being established. That group will include representatives from across the youth sector, including academics and youth representatives, and will support a balanced and transparent input from across the wider sector. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Youth Work Supports"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_5","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"School Staff","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_2","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_5","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_5.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Hildegarde Naughton  This Government is committed to improving staffing levels in primary schools and supporting the recruitment and retention of teachers. According to the latest published data from November 2025, there were more than 97% of allocated primary teaching posts filled. Teacher numbers at primary level have increased by almost 6,000 since 2019 and now stand at the highest level ever recorded at over 43,400.  The Government is investing a record \u20ac14.1 billion in education and schools through budget 2026. This record level of investment has enabled significant progress in tackling educational disadvantage and supporting children and young people with special educational needs to achieve their full potential. Funding has been provided for 860 additional special education teachers across special schools and mainstream settings, together with more than 1,700 additional special needs assistants.  Budget 2026 also includes an additional \u20ac48 million full-year investment across both the DEIS strategy and the DEIS plus scheme. That provides more teaching positions and more staffing and supports for schools as well. That DEIS programme will benefit approximately 30,000 children and young people attending DEIS plus schools as well as one in four children across schools in the DES programme.  Under the programme for Government, there is a commitment to reduce the general primary pupil-teacher ratio to 19:1 over the lifetime of the Government and to introduce targeted measures for schools with very large class sizes. This builds on substantial progress already made. The primary staffing schedule has improved from an average allocation ratio of 26:1, five years ago, to 23:1 for the current school year, which is the lowest ever at primary level. Average class sizes have fallen from 24.1 to 22.2 pupils, while the overall pupil-teacher ratio improved from 15:1 in 2019-2020 to 12.8:1 in 2023-2024, which is comparing favourably with the OECD average levels. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darren O'Rourke  I thank the Minister. She said from November that 97% of posts were filled. In real terms at the same time, 996 teaching posts were unfilled, which is almost 1,000. Figures as recent as last week tell us that over 39,000 primary school students were in classes of 30 pupils or more in the past school year. A figure of 36,805 were in classes of 30 to 34 pupils and 2,237 were in classes of between 35 and 39 pupils. That is simply incredible in 2026 in Ireland and it has a direct impact on the type of attention children can get in the classroom. It is as simple as that. It is also contributing to the burnout for teachers.  I did not hear the answer in her initial response and maybe the Minister will provide it in her next response. Is it her ambition to move on the pupil-teacher ratio in this budget cycle and will she provide for 1,000 primary school teachers? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Hildegarde Naughton  It is an absolute commitment in the programme for Government to reduce the pupil-teacher ratio over the lifetime of the Government. The Deputy will appreciate I cannot announce anything here in the D\u00e1il. I have to go into negotiations in relation to the upcoming budget.  In the past ten years there has been a five-point improvement to the primary staffing schedule. In 2015, teachers were allocated to primary schools at a general average of 28 pupils for every one teacher. This is now reduced to 23:1.  Lower thresholds are in place for DEIS urban band 1. That includes DEIS plus schools. We have 17:1, 21:1 and 19:1 for junior, senior and vertical schools respectively. A three-point reduction in retention thresholds assists schools in retaining existing staff. As the Deputy knows, there are over 43,000 teachers employed in our primary schools. This is an increase of over 9,000 teachers at primary level in ten years. I understand the importance of ensuring that every child gets access to their special education teacher and all of the supports required. That is obviously ongoing work with me and the Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan, in the context of this upcoming budget. I hope to put in place more measures to support our schools right across the education sector. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darren O'Rourke  It is a statement of fact that in recent years we have seen a reduced number of classroom teachers. Budget 2026 led to the removal of 498 classroom teachers, a net reduction of 381 when one looks at the gains. The year 2025-26 saw a reduction of 290 and 2024-25 a reduction of 237. That has a real impact.  I can give the example of Lismullen National School. I hope to correspond with the Minister directly in relation to Lismullen National School, if she is agreeable. Parents have written to me. Next year, there will be a class of 36 and parents, as the Minister would herself, are identifying the challenge that will present as regards the type of support that is going to be available for their children, the type of attention and schooling opportunity, and also for the teachers involved. I would appreciate the Minister considering this issue.  It is my ambition to have 1,000 extra primary school teachers and I will strongly be making the case for that in the Sinn F\u00e9in budget. I ask the Minister to do the same in her own negotiations. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Hildegarde Naughton  There is a number of issues here, such as the staffing appeals criteria. The numbers going into primary schools are reducing and our population bulge is in post-primary. That is a reality of the way trends are going. There is a staffing appeals circular, set out in Circular 0025\/2026, and it includes specific appeals for small-school enrolments in the previous October, involving projected enrolments, accommodation difficulties and where there may be language support. The primary staffing appeals board operates independently of myself and the Department.  Mainstream appeals posts are allocated provisionally on the basis of the school achieving the required appointment and retention figures in the coming September rather than the previous September. The appeals board considers the circumstances of the school in deciding if a teaching post is warranted a year ahead of the normal staffing arrangements. The appeals board held meetings in May and June and it will meet again in October. Schools will be notified of the closing date for applications to appeals boards in early September but I take the Deputy's overall point in regard to the pupil-teacher ratio. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Question No. 4 taken with Written Answers "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"School Staff"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_6","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"School Curriculum","counts":{"speechCount":8,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_2","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_6","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_6.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Lawless  What arrangements are in place for parents and parents' representative organisations to raise concerns directly with the Department regarding the national education curriculum and the provision of resources such as books, etc.? How frequently does the Minister meet with these organisations, stakeholders and parental bodies? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Hildegarde Naughton  The National Parents Council, NPC, is the representative body for parents of children in primary and post-primary education. It serves as an important channel of communication between parents and my Department. Annual funding is provided to support its work, including \u20ac765,782 in 2025. The National Parents Council represents parents\u2019 views on education policy, curriculum reform and educational resources, ensuring that parental perspectives are reflected in policy development, implementation and decision-making.  The NPC is on the primary and post-primary education forums, which support the planning and sequencing of change across the school sector. The National Parents Council is also a key stakeholder of the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA, and its advisory structures, ensuring that parents\u2019 perspectives inform curriculum development and related resources across early childhood, primary and post-primary education. In addition, the NCCA facilitates parental participation through surveys, written submissions, consultation events and focus groups. It represents parents on a wide range of Department-led groups, including those relating to special education, senior cycle redevelopment, DEIS, anti-bullying procedures, student and parent supports and disability participation and consultation.  The NPC is also on the convention on education, ensuring that parents\u2019 views are reflected in national discussions on the future direction of education in this country. My Department has also engaged with the National Parents Council on the development of the Education (Student and Parent Charter) Bill.  I met with the National Parents Council in March of this year. In addition, both the parents council and individual parents may raise concerns directly with me and my Department regarding the curriculum, educational resources and other education matters. This direct engagement helps ensure that parental views inform policy development and decision-making at national level. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Lawless  Confidence in our education system depends on quality resources but parents remain seriously concerned about inappropriate material that is being promoted in our schools, libraries, etc. Concerns have been raised in relation to the book What's the T? by Juno Dawson, which contains sexually explicit material and was promoted to children by Children's Books Ireland and RT\u00c9. It received significant publish backlash, and rightly so. It has been reported that a teacher raised concerns with the Department in an email back in March 2023, and indeed the former Minister for justice, Charlie Flanagan, raised this personally with the Minister's predecessor in December 2023. Despite those concerns being raised, the book remained recommended as a good resource for children.  Very plainly, what has the Department done since this controversy broke? What review has happened? Can the Minister outline to the House the results of that review, if it took place at all? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Hildegarde Naughton  I do not know exactly what the Deputy is asking me in relation to the Department of education. I do not know if it is a book used in schools but, so the Deputy understands how it works, in regard to schools that use textbooks or other teaching and learning resources, that is a matter for the individual school. Decisions around materials are made at a whole-school level. Textbooks are commercially produced and my Department does not endorse publications, products or services from individual, commercial or other providers. Any concerns regarding material included in specific textbooks should be raised with relevant publishers.  From an education point of view, I have absolute confidence in our teachers. There is a huge amount of training and supports. We have Oide, which has in-service days. We have curriculum reform and a huge amount of consultation and training happens around that. It is always age-appropriate and I think schools are very well aware of any issues that parents may have and parents may come and talk to schools directly. We have a very good track record in relation to that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Lawless  Is the Minister aware of the controversy surrounding the What's the T? book by Juno Dawson? Is she aware that the book was promoted by Children's Books Ireland? That is very important.  The idea that the Minister would say she is basically not responsible is, I believe, questionable. She is the Minister for education; the buck stops with her. For her to say she is not responsible is unacceptable, in my view. The Minister has such an enormous responsibility for the children of this country and if it is the case that there is inappropriate material being promoted to children, she actually is responsible and it is her job, I believe, to make sure that never happens again and that there are robust processes in place to make sure no child will be subjected to sexually explicit, age-inappropriate material in our schools and libraries and promoted by Children's Books Ireland and RT\u00c9. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Hildegarde Naughton  I will repeat it for the Deputy. In regard to our schools, I come from a teaching background myself. I do not know exactly what the Deputy is inferring in relation to the education system. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Lawless  Is the Minister aware of the What's the T? book? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Hildegarde Naughton  I have not read that book but what I can tell the Deputy in relation to our education system is that, be it social, personal and health education, SPHE, or relationships and sexuality education, RSE, there is a huge amount of consultation between schools and parents.  With regard to the NCCA as our curriculum is developed, there is huge amount of consultation. Our teachers are so well trained in this country to make sure that when they are engaging in SPHE, for example, they are ensuring that all of our children are in a safe and supported environment within our schools and that any lessons are age appropriate. Where parents have concerns, they can approach and contact their schools. I know of cases where parents will reach out to schools and where schools will actually hold information nights for parents in advance of, for example, a SPHE lesson so that they were very aware of what their children are going to be taught in relation to any particular sensitive area but it is always age appropriate. We always have to make sure that our schools are inclusive, that we support our young people and that they feel safe and supported. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"School Curriculum"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_7","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Pupil-Teacher Ratio","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_2","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_7","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ryan O'Meara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ryan-O'Meara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ryan-O'Meara.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_7.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ryan O'Meara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ryan-O'Meara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ryan-O'Meara.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ryan O'Meara  What does the Government intend to do to meet the programme for Government commitment to reduce the pupil-teacher ratio in our schools to 19:1? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Hildegarde Naughton  The Government is investing a record \u20ac14.1 billion into education and schools through budget 2026. This record level of investment has allowed the Government to invest in tackling educational disadvantage and supporting those with special educational needs to achieve their full potential. It has enabled huge investment in the school buildings programme, in curriculum reform, in school leadership and in continuous professional development for teachers.  Under the programme for Government, there is a commitment to aim to reduce the general pupil-teacher ratio at primary level to 19:1 over the term of this Government and introduce targeted measures in schools with very large classes. This will build on the progress that has been made by the previous Government. The general average of pupils to teachers in the primary staffing schedule improved from 26:1 five years ago to 23:1 for the current school year. Average class sizes in primary schools have improved from 24.1 to 22.2 through the investment we are making in schools.  The Department\u2019s primary staffing schedule is the key factor for determining the level of staffing resources provided at individual school level. This school year, the primary staffing schedule operates on a general average of 23 pupils to every one teacher, which is historically the lowest ever ratio of pupils to teachers at primary level. More favourable ratios are implemented for DEIS urban band 1 schools.  The numbers employed in our schools have now reached the highest ever level. Teacher numbers at primary level have increased by almost 6,000 between 2019 and 2025. This has led to a steady improvement in both the pupil-teacher ratio and in average class size statistics during this period. I am very conscious of the primary staffing schedule and the need to prioritise teacher allocations in primary schools. I am considering how best to make further progress as part of the annual budgetary process in reducing the primary pupil-teacher ratio in the context of that programme for Government implementation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ryan O'Meara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ryan-O'Meara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ryan-O'Meara.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ryan O'Meara  I acknowledge the work that was done by the previous Government in reducing the pupil-teacher ratio. Good work was done and, to be fair, in the last budget, good work was done in respect of the capitation grants to schools and that needs to be recognised. It was a huge issue this time last year, particularly at the Oireachtas education committee. The pupil-teacher ratio is key and we have committed very clearly to 19:1 by the end of this Government. I will highlight some data that has come out of the Department in recent days. A total of 39,000 students in the country were in classes of over 30 students for the 2025-2026 academic year. One school in particular in Tipperary - St. Peter and Paul's CBS in Clonmel - actually had 38 students in one class in the academic year just gone, which realistically is twice what the programme for Government says it wants class sizes to be, so I reiterate that very important call for the reduction to 19:1 over the course of this Government. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Hildegarde Naughton  Where we can, we give guidance and I know schools are very well aware of this. They do this well themselves so that where possible, the more junior classes would have a lower class size. Where there are higher numbers in some classes in many schools, one will find other classes within the school that would have lower numbers to accommodate for that earlier, so that the junior classes would have lower class sizes where possible but I hear the concerns highlighted by the Deputy.  I am very aware of our commitment in the programme for Government on this. Prior to 2016, teachers were allocated to primary schools at a general average of 28 pupils for every one teacher. In budget 2016, we improved that ratio by one point at 27:1. In budget 2018, we further improved it by one point to 26:1 and in 2021, we improved it by a further point to 25:1. In addition, there has been a three-point reduction in the retention schedule and that schedule assists schools that would otherwise be at risk of losing teaching posts, so this measure helps to better ensure teacher retention in primary schools while also ensuring that fewer pupils are required to retain or to recruit a teacher. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ryan O'Meara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ryan-O'Meara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ryan-O'Meara.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ryan O'Meara  The ask from this budget from the INTO is very important - 1,000 additional teachers - to help us reduce class sizes for every child to give him or her more attention, to support inclusive education, to meet growing pupil needs, to ease the workload pressure and potential burnout for teachers facing those very high numbers within the classroom and to bring stability to school and strengthen leadership. Coming from a rural constituency, I acknowledge a lot of those rural schools that are struggling at the moment to maintain their two, three or four teachers because they are always faced with the threat of losing one because they are just barely over the number at the moment. Those additional teachers will help with that. We need to fill the posts that are there, of course. However, hiring those additional 1,000 teachers will certainly help with our key commitment. It has been done step by step but this year's budget will be very important step towards that key figure of 19:1. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Hildegarde Naughton  We have more favourable ratios as part of our DEIS urban band 1 schools. The Deputy heard me announce the DEIS schools earlier this year, so there are measures for children and students who are most at risk of educational disadvantage. We have been reducing the pupil-teacher ratio incrementally over the years and that is something I want to continue over the lifetime of this Government but, as the Deputy can appreciate, I cannot go into detail on any budgetary decisions because I have yet to have my meetings with the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation. I have to look at the whole of the education budget, making sure that we are supporting children with educational needs, reducing the burden on our leadership teams within our schools, because I hear those concerns around burnout very clearly, and looking at ways of listening to the stakeholders on what we could do to ease the pressure on our schools so they can focus more on teaching and learning, which is what they are all there to do, notwithstanding the administrative necessities required in our schools. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Pupil-Teacher Ratio"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_8","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":false,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_9","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"School Accommodation","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_8","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_9","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Noel McCarthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Noel-McCarthy.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Noel-McCarthy.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_9.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Noel McCarthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Noel-McCarthy.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Noel-McCarthy.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Noel McCarthy  Will further consideration be given by the Department to a decision to refuse an application for the additional school accommodation scheme from a school in light of the school's projected increase in enrolment numbers? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Hildegarde Naughton  The school referred to by the Deputy submitted an application under the additional school accommodation, ASA, scheme for an additional temporary classroom in 2025. This school had previously been approved for a permanent extension under the ASA scheme in 2021 for a two-classroom special education needs unit and one mainstream classroom. The project is devolved to the school for delivery and my Department is currently awaiting a submission of the stage 1 design report from the school. The school subsequently applied in 2024 for reconfiguration of an existing classroom to cater for a second special class pending completion of the permanent extension project. The Department approved this application and it has already been delivered. The NDP implementation plan for the education and youth sector 2026 to 2030 was published in January 2026. This NDP implementation plan includes a strong focus on maximising existing school capacity across the school estate and also ensuring that schools' admissions policies and processes are targeted at meeting local mainstream and special class requirements. Available funding must be prioritised where local capacity across schools in the area is insufficient along with ensuring delivery that is affordable, offers value for money and meets functional needs.  The school's application for interim classroom accommodation is parallel to the delivery of its traditional building project that has been assessed, including in the context of available capacity in the local area. It is the Department's position that the school has sufficient accommodation within the existing school buildings to cater for its local demand through the management of its enrolments, in line with its current capacity. In the Youghal school planning area, where the school referenced is located, there are 23% fewer junior infants than there were in 2020. All 14 primary schools in the school planning area indicate capacity to enrol more pupils. The proposal for interim accommodation in this context is not therefore an effective prioritisation of NDP funding. This position has been explained to the school. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Noel McCarthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Noel-McCarthy.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Noel-McCarthy.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Noel McCarthy  I thank the Minister for her response. I am unsure if she is familiar with the history of Kilcredan National School. It has been the central point of three smaller parish schools - Ladysbridge, Kilcredan and Ballyburden - since they merged in the 1970s. Kilcredan is a popular rural school catering for the families of several local parishes. The population of these parishes continues to increase, with recent development of many new housing estates and more planned. Due to the increased enrolment, an extra teacher but not an extra classroom was sanctioned last September. As a result, 14 children were accommodated in a learning support room which had a knock-on effect on the school's SEN provision. This summer, 31 children finished in the school, with 48 expected to start in September.  An additional school accommodation scheme application was refused on the basis that Kilcredan national school has sufficient accommodation within the existing school buildings to cater for its local demand. The school itself disagrees and has raised serious concerns that children entering the school will likely have to be accommodated in the hall. This would have a negative impact on the well-being and physical activity and the movement breaks of the children in the school's special classes. Therefore, can the Minister and her Department officials liaise with the school to see what can be done to ensure adequate space for Kilcredan pupils? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Hildegarde Naughton  The Department funded a substantial extension and refurbishment in 2014 of this school. This included six new classrooms, special education rooms, a GP hall, a new basketball court and a new carpark. The existing building was also completely refurbished. The school was subsequently approved for a further extension under the ASA scheme in 2021, to provide a two SEN classroom unit and one additional mainstream classroom. This project is devolved to the school authority for delivery and is at stage 1 of architectural design and planning. As the Deputy knows, the school was also approved for an SEN repurposing project in 2024, to reconfigure an existing room to cater for a second special education class, pending the provision of that new permanent extension. A further application for rental of interim accommodation to cater for a mainstream class was refused in May of this year, on the grounds that there is already sufficient capacity in the area and the responsibility of the school to manage its enrolments to suit its capacity in that context. In the Youghal area, we have to look at the capacity within the planning school area as part of our prioritisation process. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Noel McCarthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Noel-McCarthy.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Noel-McCarthy.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Noel McCarthy  I thank the Minister for her response. There have been some positive developments recently with the approval of a safe routes to school programme application. This was good news for the school as it will greatly help its future expansion. However, the problem is the expansion and extra development within the parishes I was speaking about, and the need for local children to go to those schools. The Minister mentioned there is a space in Youghal but, as she knows, people like to attend the school they live close to. However, with legitimate space concerns and a steady increase in enrolment numbers, this case requires the particular attention of the Department in the short term. The school is understandably disappointed at the Department's position on providing additional accommodation as it awaits proposed expansion. I have written directly to the Minister to highlight this. With this in mind, I ask her to provide an update on the progress of the long-term proposal for Kilcredan National School, which would see the construction of one much-needed mainstream classroom and two SEN classes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Hildegarde Naughton  The information I have to date is the project is devolved to the school authority for delivery and it is currently at stage 1 of the architectural design and planning. I can give the Deputy more detail if he needs it. Since 2020, the Department has provided more than \u20ac796 million in capital funding for Cork schools. Over this period a total of 168 schools have been upgraded, either through the provision of a new school building, a large-scale extension or the provision of modular accommodation. Some 12 school projects to go to tender or construction this year or next were included in the NDP implementation plan. There are currently 18 school projects in Cork under construction. This summer we have 35 schools which were approved to undergo works as part of the climate action summer works programme. In addition, since 2020, 306 special classes have been sanctioned in Cork, and the Minister of State beside me is very aware of this. Some 66 were sanctioned for September 2026. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Question No. 8 taken with Written Answers. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"School Accommodation"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_10","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Education Schemes","counts":{"speechCount":8,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_8","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_10","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_10.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  In relation to grants for assistive technology for students, are there plans to increase the funding for the scheme or to update or change its criteria? The Minister is aware of what brought this to my attention. It is a ten-year-old boy from north County Louth with dyslexia. Following assessment, it was found he would benefit from a computer and assistive technology but who is not eligible for the grant. I have discussed this with the Minister. We need to find a solution and to look at the overall criteria. There are wider issues as regards AAC also. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Education (Deputy Michael Moynihan)  I thank the Deputy for his engagement in relation to this issue. The assistive technology scheme supplements the overall funding provided to schools for digital technology and equipment. It supports children who require essential specialised equipment to access the school curriculum.  Assistive technology is a critical enabler for students with special educational needs, allowing them to benefit fully from the modern, technological-focused education system. The Department of Education and Youth recognises the significant benefits of assistive technology in school settings, particularly for students with more complex needs. It supports access to the curriculum and encourages classroom participation and positive educational outcomes. Under the current scheme, schools receive funding towards computers and specialised equipment required for educational purposes. To qualify, a student must have a diagnosis of a physical or commutative disability and a professional assessment confirming the equipment is essential to access the curriculum. The review of the assistive technology scheme is at its final stages and has culminated in a new circular which I expect to announce in September 2026.  A key outcome is a planned move from a diagnosis-based model to a needs-based approach. This will give schools greater autonomy to determine when assistive technology is required, reduce administrative burdens and improve timely access to supports. A streamlined application process is also being developed for implementation. These changes aim to deliver a more responsive, effective and child-centred scheme. The Department will continue to routinely examine the level of grant aid payable under the assistive technology scheme to ensure that the level remains appropriate and aligned with the needs of children who require assistance. Ultimately, any child who needs assistive technology to access the curriculum will receive it. In line with the policy and funding parameters of the scheme, promoting assistive technologies is a programme for Government commitment and a key ministerial priority. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  We will all be very interested to see what the new circular is. The Minister of State said it will be announced in September. A needs-based system is what we need. I would like to think the young boy I talked about would be able to avail of this. I will use him as an example. The correct assessments were carried out. The Wechsler abbreviated scale of intelligence stated that his verbal comprehension was very low, perceptual reasoning was low average and full-scale IQ was very low. The Wechsler individual assessment test ranked his word reading as extremely low. It stated that he was presented with a list of words to read, he should be commended on his hard work and that this task was very difficult for him. His word reading skills were in the extremely low range for his age.  This does not make a lot of sense to me. I would say the Minister of State would agree. It is about ensuring that we have a more fit-for-purpose grant scheme and that the likes of this boy will be sorted by it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Moynihan  By way of background, 85% of the applications processed for assistive technology between January and June have been approved. We are always conscious of those who fall outside the scheme. Hence, the drawing up of the new circular to ensure that we are taking into account students and children who are outside of the scheme but who would greatly benefit from it. The Deputy has spoken to me a number of times about the child in question. I understand the challenges that are there as well. The aim of the new circular the Department is creating is to ensure that we will accommodate every child who would benefit greatly from the scheme, that the administrative burden on schools and school communities is reduced and that we make the scheme more streamlined. We expect to issue the circular in September 2026. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  We just need to make sure that the circular is fit for purpose and that the young primary school child to whom I refer will be given the supports he requires.  I will just finish reading from the communication to which I referred earlier. It states:  [His] attainments and cognitive profile do not confer eligibility for an application for an Assistive Technology grant. However, he would benefit from availing of a laptop or device in school or indeed at home. [He] should be encouraged to develop his typing skills as this will be of huge support to him when he transitions to secondary school in a few years' time. He should also be encourage to use the 'dictate' function in Word, and this will also be useful for him when completing school projects.  That is the reality of the assistive technology fund. Assistive technology would be of real benefit. We also know that it must be authorised by the Department in order that it can be availed of for exams and all the rest of it. At this point, he would require that to avail of the curriculum, which is what the assistive technology grant scheme is there for. The Minister of State says the scheme is being updated. Could he outline the level of funding that will be in it? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Moynihan  We are very conscious of the issue. A huge number of groups that I have met over the past while, particularly on the dyslexia side, have all been discussing assistive technologies. That is also the case for children who are non-communicative and non-verbal. Assistive technologies are extremely important for them.  The Department set out to compile a new curriculum because of the challenges and parameters within the old curriculum to ensure that we are reaching as many students as possible. We fundamentally believe that this is hugely important. Funding right across the Government is subject to discussion not just on Question Time; we have to also discuss it in the context of the forthcoming budget. We are quite well aware of the impact that funding through the assistive technology scheme has on young people. It enables them to go to primary school and then on to post-primary school as well. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  Will it be in operation from September? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Moynihan  Yes, from September. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Education Schemes"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_11","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Educational Disadvantage","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_8","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_11","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sorca Clarke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sorca-Clarke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Sorca-Clarke.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_11.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sorca Clarke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sorca-Clarke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Sorca-Clarke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sorca Clarke  When DEIS plus schools were announced in May, St. Joseph's and St. Michael's in Longford town were rightly included. However, Sacred Heart school in Granard, despite sharing the same DEIS history and facing significant educational disadvantage, was excluded and is now awaiting the outcome of an appeal. Could the Minister please outline how the appeal is being considered and when Sacred Heart school, Granard can expect a decision? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Hildegarde Naughton  Addressing educational disadvantage and ensuring that every child and young person can reach their full potential is a key priority for me as Minister for Education and Youth. The introduction of the DEIS plus scheme will provide enhanced supports to a small cohort of schools with the very highest concentration of students at risk of educational disadvantage.  Schools were identified for inclusion in DEIS plus through a nationally consistent, evidence-based identification model which drew on a range of indicators associated with persistent and intergenerational disadvantage. The model was applied uniformly across all eligible schools to ensure a fair and objective process.  Recognising the importance of accuracy and fairness, schools that were not satisfied with the outcome were afforded an opportunity to appeal in line with the arrangements set out by the Department. The appeal process allowed schools to correct inaccuracies in enrolment data or seek verification that the DEIS plus identification model had been correctly applied to their data. All appeals submitted by schools, including the one referred to by the Deputy, are undergoing a detailed technical review in accordance with the published criteria. The outcomes of the review are independently verified by an appeals panel with expertise in data analysis, education policy and educational disadvantage, providing an additional layer of assurance regarding the integrity and consistency of the process.  It would be inappropriate for me to comment on the result of any individual appeal in advance of the completion of that process. That process will be completed in the coming days and schools will be notified of the outcome of their appeal. I do also recognise however, that some schools are operating in the context of complex local pressures that cannot currently be fully reflected in the DEIS plus identification model. At present, the model must use data from the online enrolment databases and the HP index in order to be based on data that are available nationally and consistently for all schools. I will come back in again. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sorca Clarke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sorca-Clarke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Sorca-Clarke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sorca Clarke  This is about fairness and equity. The Minister mentioned the HP deprivation index. In the HP index, Granard scores higher than seven out of the ten areas that have been chosen in Longford. This does not make sense. Sacred Heart has been a DEIS band 1 school for 20 years. Since then, the demand on the school has increased dramatically. There are now 255 pupils, three autism classes, an early intervention class, a large number of pupils learning English as an additional language and many families experiencing significant disadvantage, as reflected in the HP deprivation index. The principal, Francis Gray, and the staff do extraordinary work but they are truly stretched to the limit. The additional supports that would come with DEIS plus, the extra leadership, enhanced family supports and the additional educational resources would make a real and tangible difference to the children that this school educates. Could the Minister confirm that the criteria that are being applied to this appeal includes both the current circumstances of the school alongside the historical data? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Hildegarde Naughton  The identification model has to be applied consistently right across the country to have fairness and transparency around it. Under the DEIS strategy to 2035, work is under way in my Department, with colleagues in the Central Statistics Office and across other Departments, to utilise other administrative data sources to help improve how we can resource schools in a targeted way to support children and young people at risk of disadvantage.  The appeals process allows schools to correct any inaccuracies in enrolment data or to seek verification that the DEIS plus identification model had been correctly applied. It was limited to the enrolment data. If there is other information that might be relevant to that particular locality, they could not take that on board because it would not have been consistently applied right across the country. We need to make sure that we have a sense of fairness.  I hear concerns, and not just in relation to that particular school. We all know there is educational disadvantage right across the country. My Department is working with the CSO to look at even better ways to capture this data. I would love to be in a position to maybe not call a school a DEIS school but to be able to apply the supports as needed and as intensively as required right across the country. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sorca Clarke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sorca-Clarke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Sorca-Clarke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sorca Clarke  I agree with the Minister on the issue of consistency. I do not believe anybody in this House would argue against schools with the greatest need having the greatest level of support. However, the issue in Granard is that this school has faced the same challenges as every other school in Longford that has been chosen as a DEIS school for the past 20 years, yet it is not being considered as part of the scheme. There is a lack of consistency and fairness. This school has been left waiting while the other schools have moved ahead, despite facing the same, if not more and greater challenges than those which have progressed to DEIS plus.  I know the Minister is going to say \"No\" when I ask her this but I am going to ask her. Will the Minister personally have a look at this file? Are there some learnings the Minister and her Department can take from this situation so that no other school is left in this position? If Sacred Heart meets that threshold for DEIS plus, can the Minister ensure it receives that designation without any further unnecessary delay? This is causing profound concern across not just the town of Granard but across the towns this school in very rural north Longford serves and for the parents of the kids they know need those additional supports and could benefit from those additional supports. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Hildegarde Naughton  The appeals process is underway at the moment. It will be announced shortly. I am not involved in that. It is independently being assessed. There is an identification model. It has to be done fairly and transparently. For that reason, the appeal process was limited to enrolment data which underpins the model. That is through the primary online database, POD, system and the post-primary online database, P-POD, system. That appeals process does not allow for the submission of contextual information. A rules-based national model has to consider all schools on the same basis. It cannot substitute locally held knowledge for data that are not available or comparable nationwide. Incorporating local level indicators or qualitative submissions where such information is not nationally available could create challenges around consistency, transparency and equality of treatment. The Department is committed to ensuring that all schools are treated equally.  I hear the Deputy's concerns. I will come back to this question. This is the first phase of this DEIS plus programme. We are going to be looking at how this is rolled out from September onwards. I want to make sure - and that is why I set up a pilot as part of this - that certain schools that are not DEIS would access to a home school liaison co-ordinator. I appreciate there are schools that have educational disadvantage. We need to be able to respond to that with the evidence and data. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Question No. 11 taken with Written Answers. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Educational Disadvantage"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_12","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Schools Building Projects","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_8","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_12","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Shane Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Shane-Moynihan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Shane-Moynihan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_12.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Shane Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Shane-Moynihan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Shane-Moynihan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Shane Moynihan  The schools I intend to address are St. Thomas Junior National School and Scoil A\u00edne Naofa in Lucan and Divine Mercy junior and senior national schools and St. Kevin's Community College. What is the current status of the Lucan Community College project and Scoil Chr\u00f3n\u00e1in? I ask the Minister to make a statement on the matter. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Hildegarde Naughton  I thank the Deputy. My Department is delivering significant projects in Dublin Mid-West and continues to progress further important projects. There are currently eight projects onsite across Dublin Mid-West, including new school buildings for Col\u00e1iste Pobail Fola, Gaelscoil na Cam\u00f3ige, Gaelscoil Chluain Dolc\u00e1in and Holy Family Community School. Gaelscoil L\u00edr was substantially completed and handed over to the school at the end of last week. A further four projects are at tender stage, including a new school building for Scoil Chron\u00e1in and deep energy retrofit works at Col\u00e1iste Br\u00edde, Deansrath Community College and Collinstown Park Community College. In addition, 20 large-scale and additional accommodation projects are progressing through the design pipeline. Ten are at preliminary design, which is stage 1. One is at developed design, which is stage 2a. Nine are at detailed design, which is stage 2b. One of these stage 2b projects - the new school building for Adamstown Castle Educate Together National School - has been included in the priority tranche of projects published in January as part of national development plan, NDP, roll-out.  There are also a further 12 projects being progressed under the modular programme and the climate action summer works scheme. It is important to note that only projects already at tender stage, or close to being tender-ready, were considered and prioritised for the first tranche of projects approved to proceed under the Department's NDP implementation plan. However, priority projects at earlier stages of the pipeline continue to be advanced, with particular emphasis on special schools, schools operating entirely in interim accommodation, projects providing significant special education capacity, additional accommodation to meet demographic growth, and schools with the most pressing building condition issues. The Department is targeting 2027 for the publication of the next tranche of priority projects to proceed to tender. To be considered, projects will have to be at an appropriate stage of readiness. Prioritisation will be informed by departmental analysis, engagement with patrons and schools, available funding, and, where relevant, findings from the Department's school estate energy and condition survey. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Shane Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Shane-Moynihan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Shane-Moynihan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Shane Moynihan  I thank the Minister for her very comprehensive answer. I see first hand the progress that is being made with school buildings across the constituency but there are also buildings that need to be addressed as a matter of urgency. The Minister mentioned Scoil Chr\u00f3n\u00e1in. In answers she has given me in parliamentary questions, she is aware there is a delay on the tender with that particular school. I would very much welcome any urgency we can apply to make sure we break ground by quarter 4 of this year because that is contingent on the planning permission not having to be extended and for the delivery of the school building for Scoil Chr\u00f3n\u00e1in that is so important.  Similarly, for Lucan Community College, that is being delivered under phase one through a modular framework and there is now an intention to secure planning for the remaining phase, so that does not delay the delivery of phases two and three of Lucan. I also wish to draw attention to Devine Mercy junior and senior national schools. I went Devine Mercy Junior National School. It still the same building that was built in the 1980s. It is not fit for purpose and it is one that should be prioritised. Similarly, with St. Thomas's and Scoil A\u00edne in Lucan. There are cramped conditions for a rapidly growing part of Lucan. They need to be urgently prioritised. In my supplementary question, I will speak about the pipeline the Minister mentioned. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Hildegarde Naughton  There has been a lot of correspondence in relation to Scoil Chr\u00f3n\u00e1in in Rathcoole. The Minister of State, Deputy Higgins, along with the Deputy have raised concerns around this. I reassure the Deputy in regard to Scoil Chr\u00f3n\u00e1in, which is an all-Irish co-educational primary school under the patronage of the Archbishop of Dublin. The brief for the permanent project is to provide a new 16-classroom primary school and accommodation, including two classrooms for children with special educational needs on the permanent site in Rathcoole, County Dublin. That project will be delivered under my Department's employer-led design programme which uses a professional external project manager to co-ordinate and drive the design team to achieve the best possible timeframe for the project through the stages of architectural planning to tender and construction. That project progressed to tender on 25 February 2025. The tender returns were received on 2 May 2025. The tenders were evaluated by the design team. Following due diligence being carried out and discussions with the preferred tender, the company withdrew its tender. The Department's design team is now carrying out due diligence in relation to the next placed tender with the view to submitting a tender assessment report for my Department's consideration. The Deputy raised concerns around the planning permission. If necessary, we will prepare the documentation for an application to extend that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Shane Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Shane-Moynihan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Shane-Moynihan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Shane Moynihan  Hopefully, we will not need to extend the planning. That is the intention of all. Similarly for Lucan Community College, we need to get the planning right now for phases two and three. I wish to speak about the pipeline because it is important that the message we get out to parents is that there is a pipeline and that we are not taking a stop-start approach to prioritising schools. I wish to emphasise how important it is that the likes of Devine Mercy Junior National School, which is a very proud school in Balgaddy, gets approved for the building it has been waiting for quite a long time. The standard response I have got back for the past two years is that there will be a meeting of stakeholders in the near future and nothing past that. I am very keen to see progress on that.  Similarly for St. Thomas's and Scoil A\u00edne junior and senior national schools in Lucan, they are immediately adjacent to Adamstown, which is one of the rapidly growing areas in the country right now. They are in the same building they were in when the school was opened. That needs to be addressed as a matter of urgency. For St. Kevin's Community School in Clondalkin, the buildings are very much the same as they were when I was there. It was considered an old building then. The prefabs and the building are not in the condition they should be in. That needs to be prioritised for that next list. I am pleased to hear there is a pipeline but I am keen to see we make sure the right schools get on it in terms of their prioritisation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Hildegarde Naughton  I am conscious if I go into one school I am going to run out of time but I heard the schools the Deputy raised. To be eligible for inclusion in the first tranche of projects to proceed, projects needed to be ready and be at the appropriate stage of readiness. Stage 3 is tender and stage 2b is detailed design and pre-tender. Within this context, priority was afforded to special schools, and we will be having a focus on that for the next tranche, schools that are fully in interim accommodation across the country and with an urgent requirement for permanent accommodation and projects delivering significant special education capacity. We are looking at the existing accommodation when we are looking at expanding schools or the NPD where it is possible we can use the existing school capacity. Another weighting we give is additional accommodation required to cater for demographic growth in an area and projects dealing with the most significant condition issues. That is our condition and energy survey. For the first time, the Department will have information and good data on the energy and condition of all our school estates across the country. That will feed into the next prioritisation. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Schools Building Projects"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_13","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Scoileanna Gaeilge agus Gaeltachta","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_8","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_13","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_13.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell  C\u00e9ard go d\u00edreach at\u00e1 ag tarl\u00fa leis an scoil ar an Tuair\u00edn i mB\u00e9al an Daingin? Is \u00e9 an t-eolas is d\u00e9ana\u00ed maidir leis na hoibreacha at\u00e1 \u00e1 lorg againn. An bhfuil aon uasd\u00e1t\u00fa ar st\u00e1das an tionscnaimh? Is \u00e9 sin an t-eolas at\u00e1 de dh\u00edth ar dhaoine. Will the Minister give an update on an Tuair\u00edn i mB\u00e9al an Daingin? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Hildegarde Naughton  T\u00e1 an s\u00edneadh at\u00e1 le cur leis an scoil, ar thagair an Teachta d\u00f3, ceadaithe le dul isteach i bp\u00edbl\u00edne thionscadail mo Roinne chun seomra ranga pr\u00edomhshrutha amh\u00e1in agus tr\u00ed sheomra oideachais speisialta a chur ar f\u00e1il. Rinneadh \u00e9 a chineachadh chun seachadta chuig \u00fadar\u00e1s na scoile.  In early June, departmental officials contacted the school to advise that its project remained under review in the context of NDP parameters and the overall prioritisation of capital investment. The project is currently at stage 2b, i.e. detailed design. A stage 2b report was received in August 2025 and is currently under review from a technical and cost perspective. All school building projects, including this one, must undergo the necessary due diligence outlined in the infrastructure guidelines. Managing timing, scope, and cost is crucial to ensuring that the overall school building programme remains within the funding parameters.  As the Deputy knows, enrolment has remained stable at that school at between 77 and 84 pupils from 2022 to 2025, supporting the ongoing viability of the school's four-teacher staffing structure in a mixed Irish medium primary school. Although enrolment has remained relatively stable, the school's accommodation is under significant pressure due to the need to accommodate three special education teachers, SETs, alongside four mainstream teachers. There is no spare classroom space available within the school. Two SET teaching spaces are currently located within the school. The accommodation need is therefore driven by the requirement for appropriate SET space and the restoration of ancillary facilities for their intended use.  Since 2020, the Department of education has provided \u20ac264.25 million in capital funding for Galway schools and over this period a total of 89 schools have been upgraded either through the provision of a new school building, a large scale extension or the provision of modular accommodation. Ten schools will tender for construction in 2026 and 2027, that were included in the NDP. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell  Is \u00ed an cheist n\u00e1 c\u00e9ard go d\u00edreach at\u00e1 chun tarl\u00fa anois. Cad iad na ch\u00e9ad c\u00e9imeanna eile? Thug m\u00e9 cuairt ar an scoil D\u00e9 hAoine seo chaite agus chonaic m\u00e9 nach bhfuil go leor sp\u00e1is inti. T\u00e1 s\u00e9 le feice\u00e1il go soil\u00e9ir go bhfuil na ranganna riachtanais speisialta agus, ar nd\u00f3igh, an seomra ranga breise ag teast\u00e1il go g\u00e9ar. T\u00e1 an cheart ar fad ag an Aire go bhfuil uimhreacha maithe ag an scoil seo, ach t\u00e1 an sp\u00e1s ag teast\u00e1il.  I thank the Minister for that update. I understand what she is saying about the 2b detailed design stage, but the real question is, what happens next? How many more stages will there be in the process? How long will this take? It is my understanding that the funding has been granted but that now the next stage is to go to eTenders. Where is that at? How long will that take?  I visited the school last week. It is a school that is under very clear pressure in terms of space. It has a good level of numbers but it needs the space. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Hildegarde Naughton  Mar is amhlaidh le gach tionscadal t\u00f3g\u00e1la scoile, d\u00e9antar iad a mheas i gcomhth\u00e9acs thosa\u00edocht fhorioml\u00e1n an chl\u00e1ir agus paraim\u00e9adair mhaoinithe an phlean forbartha n\u00e1isi\u00fanta, PFN. I bplean infheist\u00edochta earn\u00e1la PFN mo Roinne, leagtar amach b\u00e9im mo Roinne ar acmhainn reatha a uasmh\u00e9ad\u00fa agus t\u00fas \u00e1ite a thabhairt d\u2019fheidhmi\u00fa c\u00e9imneach tionscadail chun na riachtanais is pr\u00e1inn\u00ed a sh\u00e1samh, go h\u00e1irithe chun tac\u00fa le sol\u00e1thar riachtanas oideachais speisialta.  The project at scoil an Tuair\u00edn i mB\u00e9al an Daingin is currently under review from both a technical and cost perspective in accordance with the requirements outlined in the public infrastructure guidelines. In the context of the overall programme management, it is not possible to give a timeline for progression at this point but work is under way.  In moving projects forward, the Department maintains a strong focus on delivering value for money and affordability and including phasing arrangements where necessary to ensure spending remains sustainable. The project in this school will be considered as part of the overall programme management approach. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell  Ar mhaithe le soil\u00e9iri\u00fa ioml\u00e1n, \u00f3n m\u00e9id a thuigim, bh\u00ed maoini\u00fa curtha ar f\u00e1il don tionscnamh seo. Is l\u00e9ir go bhfuil s\u00e9 seo ag teast\u00e1il. Cuirfidh m\u00e9 chomhth\u00e9acs air seo. Is scoil bheag \u00ed seo i mB\u00e9al an Daingin, ach is scoil l\u00e1idir \u00ed. Tagann daoine \u00f3 cheantair \u00e9ags\u00fala chun a gcuid p\u00e1ist\u00ed a chur chuig an scoil seo. Faoi l\u00e1thair, \u00e1fach, n\u00edl go leor sp\u00e1is inti. Bh\u00ed m\u00e9 ag an scoil agus chonaic m\u00e9 na seomra\u00ed. T\u00e1 siad r\u00f3bheag. T\u00e1 go leor p\u00e1ist\u00ed ag freastal ar an scoil ach t\u00e1 na seomra\u00ed breise seo ag teast\u00e1il. Faoi l\u00e1thair, t\u00e1 c\u00f3fra \u00e1 \u00fas\u00e1id mar sensory room. Ba ch\u00f3ir go mbeadh i bhfad n\u00edos m\u00f3 sp\u00e1is ar f\u00e1il. T\u00e1 p\u00e1ist\u00ed \u00f3n \u00dacr\u00e1in agus p\u00e1ist\u00ed at\u00e1 ag teacht tr\u00ed sheirbh\u00eds\u00ed IPAS ag freastal ar an scoil, agus is maith an rud \u00e9 sin. T\u00e1 Gaeilge \u00e1lainn acu. Teasta\u00edonn an sp\u00e1s sin \u00f3n scoil.  Will the Minister be very clear about the funding? I understand that funding has been made available, so is it still there? I visited that school. It is a fantastic school. It needs the space. There are kids from Ukraine and International Protection Accommodation Services, IPAS, centres who speak absolutely fluent Irish because they have attended that school, but the school needs the support. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Hildegarde Naughton  It is important to note that only projects that are already at tender stage or close to be tender ready are included in the tranche of the NDP. The Department-led energy and condition survey has been conducted right throughout the country. That is being considered at the moment. We are looking at a new prioritisation list for the next tranche, so priority projects at earlier stages of the pipeline continue to be advanced, with particular emphasis on special schools, schools operating in interim accommodation and projects providing significant special education places. The next tranche of priority projects to proceed to tender and construction will be informed by: my Department's analysis that it is undergoing at the moment; engagement with patrons and schools; available funding where relevant; and findings from the Department's school estate energy and conditions survey, which is due to be completed at the end of this year. Any interim accommodation requirements will continue to be assessed and considered by the Department on a case-by-case basis in order to determine the prioritised needs and approach for addressing them. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Scoileanna Gaeilge agus Gaeltachta"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_14","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Industrial Relations","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_8","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_14","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_14.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh  SNAs are very dedicated members of our school community who work very hard with our most vulnerable children. However, many have legitimate outstanding concerns following the publication of the new circular and the workforce development plan, WDP. Will the Minister of State tell me his plans to address outstanding concerns of SNAs in view of rejection by members of a union of the workforce development plan, and will he make a statement on the matter? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Moynihan  I thank the Deputy. By way of background, the number of SNAs working within the education system has grown significantly to support the increasing number of students with special education needs, both in mainstream schools and in special schools and classes. By the end of this year, there will be approximately 26,000 SNAs in our education system.  In recognition of the importance of the SNA role, the Department established the SNA workforce development unit and on 3 June 2026 published the first SNA WDP. Built around five strategic pillars, the plan recognises the vital contribution SNAs make to supporting children and young people with additional educational needs and enabling their full participation in school life. It sets out a clear framework to strengthen and support SNAs through enhanced professional development, greater role clarity, workforce sustainability measures and stronger collaboration across all school communities. The actions set out in the SNA WDP were developed over a period of more than two years through extensive engagement between the Department of Education and Youth, F\u00f3rsa and other stakeholders. Direct stakeholder consultation on the plan included: focus groups with SNAs, teachers and school leaders; consultation with children and young people; a survey of SNAs with which more than 13,000 SNAs engaged; and a number of online webinars with SNAs and school leaders.  I note the outcome of the ballot by members of F\u00f3rsa to not accept the plan. While I am disappointed by this outcome, the Department remains committed to constructive engagement with F\u00f3rsa and available to engage in relation to these matters. The Department continues to work with all stakeholders to achieve sustainable improvements for the SNA workforce in pursuit of an education system that is of the highest quality and where every child and young person feels valued and is actively supported and nurtured to achieve his or her full potential. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh  I am very aware of and appreciate the work that has gone into this in recent years, but the local bargaining agreement being off the table now is a matter of serious concern and insult to SNAs. That pay increase should have been protected and maintained, irrespective of the ballot outcome on the new plan. Will the Minister of State reverse this decision to allow talks to continue in good faith?  SNAs rejected the plan because they felt more and more was being put on them without adequate recognition or compensation. There remains uncertainty around when hours will be completed, the additional time that SNAs will be required to be on site, and the impact this may have on opportunities to supplement their income, such as the bus escorts after school. There are also concerns around redeployment, such as insecurity of fixed-term contracts following redeployment and the loss of seniority. SNAs receive no additional payment for State examinations, no extra personal vacation, EPV, days for the summer programme and no allowances for working in special schools, DEIS schools or Gaelscoileanna. At the same time, they remain excluded from important decision-making processes despite the plan's emphasis on collaborative planning. All of these issues highlight a fundamental lack of respect that remains unaddressed by the plan. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Moynihan  I cannot emphasise enough the respect that the Minister, Deputy Naughton, and I have for special needs assistants and the contribution they make to education. In March, we met the SNAs to have further engagement and consultation with them and to understand their roles. The workforce development plan is the first significant piece of work that has been done to plan for SNAs, not just in the here and now, but into the future. Huge consultation and engagement has taken place on this.  However, the Department received official confirmation from F\u00f3rsa towards the end of last week, and the Department has written back for further engagement. We are open to continuing dialogue because we fully respect and appreciate the role of the SNA right across the education system in allowing young people to achieve their full potential. The key note here is the Department remains open to discussion with them to engage further. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh  I do not question the Minister of State or the Minister's respect for the SNAs, but the Department needs to show that respect. The trust of the SNAs has been severely damaged following the scandal last February. It may have played a significant role in the ballot outcome, as well as years of being undervalued in the system. The community of SNAs simply does not have reason to trust the bona fides of the Department. Yes, huge consultation has gone on, but we need to go back to the negotiating table and put together a plan that SNAs can get behind. We need meaningful consultation with them. They need to be heard and their legitimate fears and anxieties need to be addressed. We need to get this right and we need to truly back our SNAs. They need to be a bigger part of this conversation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Moynihan  There has been huge engagement by the Department on the development of the workforce development plan over the past two years. A large amount of engagement and meetings were held. It is the first workforce development plan. There was concern regarding redeployment. The circular and all of those documents were worked through and co-designed very carefully with the SNAs in mind. We wanted to ensure that we understood the concerns of the SNAs.  The Department has written back this week to confirm that it remains committed to constructive engagement with F\u00f3rsa and is available to engage on these matters. That is the communication we have sent back to F\u00f3rsa and that is the commitment we can give the Deputy. We remain committed to constructive engagement with F\u00f3rsa, the union representing the SNAs, because we value the role of SNAs across the education system and the commitment and work they provide to allow children with additional needs to avail of a fully functioning education system.  All of us across the House accept and appreciate the role of the SNA, and I am deeply committed to further engagement. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Industrial Relations"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_15","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Schools Refurbishment","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_8","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_15","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ryan O'Meara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ryan-O'Meara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ryan-O'Meara.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_15.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ryan O'Meara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ryan-O'Meara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ryan-O'Meara.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ryan O'Meara  Before I ask my final question before the summer recess, I thank the Minister and Minister of State for all of their engagement throughout the year, and I wish them both a very productive summer recess. With my better half being a Galway woman, I had also better wish the Minister the best of luck for Sunday. I hope the Minister of State next to her will soon forgive Galway for what its team did to his in the semi-final.  Will the Minister give me an update on the climate action summer works scheme and make a statement on the matter? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Hildegarde Naughton  I am looking forward to Sunday, if I can squeeze that in.  The roll-out of my Department\u2019s climate action summer works scheme is a key part of our commitment under the national development plan to support investment in the existing school estate while also delivering on the climate action agenda. Through the scheme, schools can undertake a wide range of improvement projects and targeted climate measures, such as fabric upgrades, LED lighting, roof and window replacements, installation of electric vehicle, EV, chargers and bike racks, and other essential maintenance works.  The scheme is implemented on a devolved basis and, ideally, the work is of a scale that can be carried out during the summer months or at other times that avoid disruption of the operation of the school. The climate action summer works scheme operates on a multi-annual basis across a number of categories of works.  The scheme was opened for applications from 1 May to 30 June 2025, where over 1,400 applications were received. In November 2025, the Department announced the first tranche of approvals under that scheme. A total of 297 projects were approved to proceed, including 198 under the new climate action summer works scheme and a further 99 that represent the final tranche of projects under the previous summer works scheme. The Department continues to actively engage with these schools to support the delivery of approved projects. It is envisaged that the majority of these projects will be on site this summer.  Given that funding is limited in any particular year, it is necessary to prioritise applications. Applications from schools that were not approved in 2025 will still qualify to be assessed in subsequent years within the context of the available funding envelope. As to the Deputy's question, the next tranche of approvals under the climate action summer works scheme is due in October 2026 for delivery in summer 2027. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ryan O'Meara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ryan-O'Meara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ryan-O'Meara.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ryan O'Meara  I thank the Minister for that. On her final point, I will raise one school to begin with. Presentation Primary School in Thurles originally applied in 2016 for works to its car park and school yard in terms of tarring, relining, safer access and drop-off zones. Cars have to yield going in and out because there is only one space for one car, but it has the land to increase the width of the entrance and reline it. There is also a bus pulling up in the yard every day for the early intervention class. Generally, six teachers have to go out into the yard every day to direct traffic in the morning and evening, which obviously is not acceptable.  The school did not get approval in 2016 but has submitted an application under the current scheme. It has not been approved for this summer, though. I brought this matter to the attention of the Department previously, and I would like to bring it to the attention of the Minister now so that consideration could be given to the Presentation Primary School in Thurles come this autumn when we are looking at the summer 2027 works. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Hildegarde Naughton  The next tranche of approvals is due this coming October for summer 2027. Drawing on experience from the Department's pathfinder programme, the new summer works scheme includes several climate action measures. Schools applying for the scheme select their preferred project category. There are ten categories of projects supported under this scheme, and all schools that applied for laboratory upgrades under it had their applications approved in the first tranche. This involved a total of 63 projects. Total expenditure under the summer works scheme from 1 January 2020 to 31 May 2026 amounted to \u20ac211 million. Some 1,480 summer works projects have been approved since 2020 to date, including 198 under the new climate action summer works scheme.  I hear the points the Deputy has raised, and I am sure he has engaged with the Department. I look forward to announcing the next tranche in October. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ryan O'Meara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ryan-O'Meara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ryan-O'Meara.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ryan O'Meara  The Minister mentioned labs, which is fantastic because that is my next point.  St. Mary's Secondary School in Nenagh has been approved for its science labs. The tender has been done and the proposed contractor is to be appointed.  The school sent its information to the Department on 10 June and followed up on 29 June. Essentially, the school will be somewhat of a building site certainly up until Christmas, but the sooner we can get it started, the better because it has the funding and approval. It just needs to get the approval to appoint the contractor and get going. Although it will have to manage getting the work done on the labs at the start of the academic year, from September to Christmas, the sooner we can get going this summer, the less it will impact on the academic year at the far end of it. It is St. Mary's Secondary School in Nenagh. I have raised it with the Department, but if the Minister could follow it up as well, it would be fantastic. It is great to get the money; we just want to make sure that the project gets going as quickly as possible. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Hildegarde Naughton  We listen to schools around further supports that they need. Under the last scheme, any school that applied for laboratory upgrades received them. Some 63 projects were approved. I can follow up with the Department in relation to moving that along. Schools can apply for one of the ten categories. I will outline them because sometimes there is confusion in relation to those categories. They are: climate action works, climate action roof works, climate action and electrical works, climate action and mechanical works, science labs, climate action and toilet facilities, window projects, curricular requirements, fabric defects and external environmental projects. Projects provided under the summer works scheme generally involve improvement works to the building which can include the provision of roof replacements, window replacements and new heating systems, among other measures. The emergency works scheme continues to be available to schools to deal with unforeseen emergencies which could result in school closures. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Schools Refurbishment"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_16","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Teachtaireacht \u00f3n Seanad - Message from Seanad","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_16","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Maxwell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Maxwell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy David Maxwell)  Seanad \u00c9ireann has passed the Israeli Settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territory (Prohibition of Importation of Goods) Bill 2026 without amendment. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Teachtaireacht \u00f3n Seanad - Message from Seanad"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_17","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile (At\u00f3g\u00e1il) - Other Questions (Resumed)","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":false,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_17","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna Eile (At\u00f3g\u00e1il) - Other Questions (Resumed)"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_18","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"School Transport","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_17","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_17","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile (At\u00f3g\u00e1il) - Other Questions (Resumed)"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_18","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Roche","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Roche.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Peter-Roche.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_18.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Roche","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Roche.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Peter-Roche.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Peter Roche  Like the Minister, I want to wish our gallant Galway hurlers everything that is good on Sunday, but that is not why I stood up to speak.  I am anxious, given the spate of correspondence coming into my office, about the school transport scheme and how some families find themselves ineligible or refused transport for the next year. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Moynihan  The school transport system is a significant operation managed by Bus \u00c9ireann on behalf of the Department of Education and Youth. The scheme is a demand-led scheme based on the number of eligible children who apply and pay on time. Families who require school transport for 2026-27 were asked to apply and pay for their school bus tickets by the closing date of 8 May. The earlier closing date was put in place so that we could give Bus \u00c9ireann additional time to put in place transport arrangements for the upcoming school year. Since this date, Bus \u00c9ireann has been assessing all applications and planning routes and services for the 2026-27 school year.  The school transport scheme remains heavily subsidised by the State. The approximate cost to the State per mainstream pupil is currently \u20ac1,400 annually, while the cost to the family is \u20ac100 per pupil. The total cost of the school transport system in 2025 was \u20ac537 million, equating to almost \u20ac3 million being spent on the provision of school transport per day. It is important to note that the primary school ticket will cost the equivalent of 55 cent per school day and the cost of a post-primary ticket is approximately 60 cent per day, with no family paying more than \u20ac1.32 per day regardless of how many children use the services. Tickets are now being issued to families and will continue to be issued throughout the summer. Where pupils are unsuccessful in receiving tickets, they will be notified as early as possible, and refunds will be issued from Bus \u00c9ireann.  As part of the operation of the scheme, Bus \u00c9ireann manages the procurement, tender process and contract management arrangements to include services provided by contractors under the school transport scheme. There are currently over 8,000 vehicles operating on the scheme and the competitive procurement process is conducted in accordance with the negotiated procedure under the national and EU procurement legislation. In previous school years, Bus \u00c9ireann has reported particular issues with the availability of drivers. This included a number of contractors handing back contracts unexpectedly. I will refer to some of the other details later. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Roche","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Roche.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Peter-Roche.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Peter Roche  I thank the Minister of State for his response. I get the whole cost of providing transport, but access to education begins with access to transport. For any parent who finds themselves in receipt of a refusal for a bus ticket for next year, it is the most compelling and difficult thing they have to deal with. It is stressful enough without them being told that do not qualify. In most cases, the people that I am talking about had transport last year. It is almost inconceivable that they had it last year and they are not getting it this year. God knows, there are plenty of examples. There is one example in Galway where St. Brigid's College and St. Raphael's College in Loughrea are maxed out in terms of numbers and the nearest school is St. Killian's College in New Inn. The school could desperately do with transport to ensure that it is sustainable. In this instance, there are six children who require transport to said school. However, I get and appreciate the whole issue of the costs of providing the service. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Moynihan  I know the value of the school bus ticket. I always say that from the middle of August through to 1 October is peak time in terms of this issue. Irrespective of the overall figures that I can give the Deputy here today in relation to the cost to the State and the amount of money that the State has invested, it pales into irrelevance when we are talking about one or two tickets for a family. The Deputy mentioned six tickets on a particular route. We have a lot of concerns in relation to whether every bus ticket on the system is being utilised to the full as well. We are looking at various ways to try to ensure that we get everybody on the school bus. Enabling the children of a family to get on the school bus at primary and post-primary levels is a huge game changer. When free education came out in the 1960s, the school transport scheme was introduced because people did not have transport. Right now it is because there are two parents working or the challenges they have with other children as well. I understand the challenges, and we are working very hard. The team in Bus \u00c9ireann and the Department of education have huge engagement to try to resolve issues. Do we have a magic wand for every issue? We probably do not, but we are working to try to resolve issues. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Roche","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Roche.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Peter-Roche.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Peter Roche  As the Minister of State mentioned, there are instances where students and families have benefited from school transport tickets. There are also many instances where they are not utilised. If there was a formula or mechanism to make sure that only those who need them apply, it would help the situation. I do not know if anyone would be in position to say that they do not want it and will give it back, but if we had some kind of mechanism to make sure that only those children who want to avail of public transport would apply for it and it could be left to those who urgently require it. I thank the Minister of State. I want to ensure that no parent has the stress for the summer months of waiting and hoping to see if someone can provide transport for their student for the next school term. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Moynihan  I thank the Deputy. We are looking at ways to ensure that if there is a ticket issued, it will be used. Anecdotally, the Deputy and other colleagues tell us about school routes the length and breadth of the country that have spare capacity but, when we look at the system, all of the tickets on that particular school route are occupied and accounted for, and it is therefore very difficult to reallocate them. As it is such a huge scheme, and given the amount of money the State has invested in it, we need to try to get the best value for money that we can. We also need to make sure that those who need the tickets most are being allocated the tickets. We are working across Bus \u00c9ireann and the Department to ensure that the services are reaching the families that really need the tickets. There is a good bit of work to do on that, but there is a huge commitment across government to make sure that we do that to ensure we can get the tickets out there. The most valued piece is the school bus ticket. I know from past experience and the role that I now have that when the ticket is not available, it can cause huge stress and anxiety for families and children. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"School Transport"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_19","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Education Policy","counts":{"speechCount":3,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_17","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_17","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile (At\u00f3g\u00e1il) - Other Questions (Resumed)"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_19","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paula Butterly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paula-Butterly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paula-Butterly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_19.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Hildegarde Naughton  Education about domestic and gender-based violence is addressed in the SPHE curriculum at both junior cycle and senior cycle. An updated junior cycle SPHE specification was rolled out in schools from September 2023, with all schools required to provide the subject for all junior cycle students. An updated senior cycle SPHE specification was published in 2024 and is being introduced on a phased basis, with all schools required to provide the subject at senior cycle by September 2027.  The introduction of these updated SPHE specifications is recognised as a key action within the prevention pillar of Zero Tolerance: The Third National Strategy for Domestic, Sexual and Gender-Based Violence. It is one of a number of actions in the implementation of the strategy that are led by my Department, reflecting its commitment to the aims of zero tolerance.  Learning in SPHE is designed to be appropriate to the age and stage of development of students. At junior cycle, there are relevant learning outcomes across the various strands of SPHE, including in relation to respectful relationships, identifying the signs of healthy, unhealthy and abusive relationships, the importance of consent and of boundaries within relationships, and being able to recognise different kinds of abusive behaviour. The updated senior cycle SPHE specification includes learning about the common signs of abusive relationships, including coercive control, understanding the root causes and consequences of gender-based violence and the supports available, and image-based abuse.  Recognising the sensitivity of these and other issues addressed within the SPHE programme, the introduction of these updated specifications continues to be supported by an extensive programme of teacher professional learning offered by Oide. There have been more than 10,000 teacher interactions at these sessions since 2023. In addition, 104 teachers so far have participated in the DCU graduate diploma in SPHE and RSE, which offers post-primary teachers the opportunity to upskill in this very important subject area. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paula Butterly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paula-Butterly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paula-Butterly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paula Butterly  I thank the Minister for the updates. It is important to note that there is going to be more extensive engagement with students. I recently met a group of students from County Louth. We had a lively, truthful and open conversation, particularly with the boys who are attending all-boys schools. They were honest about the fact that they are very much in the dark about what consent means and how they are supposed to behave. Peer pressure also plays a large role in this. They need guidance, and they were very much calling out for guidance from a school perspective.  I would ask the Minister to consider bringing these updates into the junior cycle. As we know, children can live in family situations where there is domestic violence from a very early age. Crimes, including sexual crimes, are happening younger and younger. We see it from the double-digit growth that is happening year on year. I do not think we can get in early enough. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Hildegarde Naughton  The Deputy raises a very important issue. We have seen reports on the news in recent weeks on the impact of domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. It is important that we raise awareness, as a society. These are also conversations that need to happen at home, with parents.  It is important that we situate the area of learning within the SPHE programme, rather than in a separate programme. SPHE aims to equip young people and students with the knowledge and understanding of how to navigate the world around them, to make decisions, to understand how to forge healthy relationships, and where to seek help or information when it is needed. These are all crucial skills. Of course, teacher competence and confidence are very important in the SPHE classes. That is why Oide, which deals with professional learning for teachers across the country, has rolled out an extensive programme of teacher professional learning over the past three years to support the introduction of the new SPHE specifications. There have been more than 10,000 teacher interactions, as I said. Resources are also available online to support SPHE teachers in the classroom. They have been developed in close collaboration with the HSE, the NCCA and my Department. I thank the Deputy for raising this very important issue. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Education Policy"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_20","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":false,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_20","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_21","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Military Neutrality","counts":{"speechCount":29,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_20","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_20","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_21","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_21.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire  The triple lock neutrality protection is deeply valued by the Irish people. It was the basis on which the Irish people were encouraged to vote for European referendums, on the basis that the Irish people value their neutrality and an independent foreign policy. The Government proposes to get rid of the triple lock. It is not reform; it is not change - it is getting rid of the triple lock. Ultimately, a Government that commands a majority will be in a position to deploy troops to any international force as it sees fit. There is growing concern about that, including in these Houses. I ask the Minister for an update on the legislation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Defence (Deputy Helen McEntee)  I appreciate that we have had these discussions on a number of occasions. I look forward to debating this as the legislation comes through the Houses. It is important that we have these discussions, and that we have a debate as to what exactly is in the Bill, what is not in the Bill and what the intention of it is. I appreciate that there are very strongly held views on this matter, so I appreciate this opportunity to discuss it prior to the Bill moving forward.  I want to be clear on what the Bill does not intend to do. It is not to remove Ireland's military neutrality. As a Government, we are very clear that the purpose is to adjust and amend the Defence Act so we can continue to either dispatch our Defence Forces personnel for service outside of the State, or make sure they stay part of the peacekeeping missions they are currently part of. We know that is being impacted at the moment because of the triple lock. This is not to remove our military neutrality or to align us with any other military force. This is to make sure that we can continue to deploy our service personnel, our men and women of \u00d3glaigh na h\u00c9ireann, overseas for peacekeeping missions.  Government approval for the text of the Defence (Amendment) Bill was received on 9 June. The Bill was published on the Oireachtas website and will be progressed through the Houses of the Oireachtas as quickly as possible. Obviously, we are on the last sitting day, but my intention is that we would bring it to the House as early as possible in the new term. While the precise timeline will depend on the schedule, my intention remains to see the legislation enacted and commenced at the earliest opportunity. We had said initially it would be by the end of this year, but I intend and hope to move it as quickly as possible.  The principal reform proposed in the Bill is the removal of the requirement for a United Nations Security Council mandate as part of the existing triple lock mechanism. The two other elements are a Government decision and the approval of D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann, so it is not just for any Government and would require the approval of D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann. That will remain in place. It is the Government's view, and very much my view as well, as I have outlined previously and am again happy to do so today, that the current arrangements allow the permanent members of the UN Security Council - the UK, Russia, China, the US and France - to effectively veto any new mission or potentially close down a mission, as has been the case. I do not believe that any other country should have the ability to constrain Ireland's sovereign decision-making through the use of a veto or the threat of a veto. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire  No other country had a vote on the Defence Acts in the 1960s. No other country had a vote on the Defence Acts in 2006. No other country will have a vote on this Defence (Amendment) Bill. It will be decided here. These are the tests that we set sovereignly in this Parliament. That is all about it. All of this craic is neither here nor there. These are our decisions about where we see fit to deploy Irish personnel. That is ultimately what this is about.  All the objects that the Government talks about achieving, such as that the world is changing or we need to invest in our defence, are not prevented by the triple lock. We should invest in our defence. We should be strong on neutrality and strong on defence. I absolutely agree with that. The Minister talks about the need to ensure that Defence Forces personnel have the ability to deploy internationally and are not prevented from participating in rescue missions. I have no problem at all with head No. 7. Actually, most of the legislation is fine. It is just head No. 8 that is a fundamental problem and a fundamental change. That is recognised by the Minister\u2019s coalition partners, or at least all apart from two or three at the top of that political party. They are very concerned because they know this will potentially constrain our ability to have an independent foreign policy as it undermines our neutrality. Perhaps the Minister might conclude that it does not end it in the final assessment, but it does undermine it potentially. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  I would ask the Deputy a number of questions. First, does he trust \u00d3glaigh na h\u00c9ireann? Does he trust our Defence Forces? If he does, then he trusts them to make the decision.  The triple lock, as amended, will ensure----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire  It is not their decision; it is our decision. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  No. The Deputy should listen to me. If he trusts the Defence Forces----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire  I do trust them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  -----to make a recommendation, because that will still be included in this, they will make a recommendation to the Government and will assess the type of mission we are talking about in the way they currently do. Does the Deputy trust the people of this country to elect the people they want to be elected? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire  I do. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  Does he trust them to make that decision? That is how we democratically form a Government here.  The triple lock, as amended, would ensure that we have recommendations from \u00d3glaigh na h\u00c9ireann, which knows what it is doing and has for decades deployed its troops on peacekeeping missions. These are troops that we respect. We know they are highly trained and well respected across the world. They will continue to make those recommendations under the amended legislation. It would then be put to this House for us to decide, as democratically elected people who form Governments in a democratic way, unlike in certain other countries, including Russia, that currently have a say in how we deploy our troops. We would then make the decision and there would be oversight.  There is nothing here to suggest that we are going to start sending troops off to war. It would be under the exact same status as the current peacekeeping missions. Deployment would have to be recommended by our Defence Forces. It would have to be approved by people who are democratically elected in this country, not the likes of Russia or China or anybody who should not have a say in how we deploy our troops. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire  The Minister said it would be on the same basis as it is currently, when that is plainly not the case. She is getting rid of the requirement for a UN mandate.  I will tell the Minister who I do not trust. I do not trust the likes of NATO-aligned organisations such as Partnership for Peace. Frankly, given the trajectory of their political positioning on the Middle East, there are many people at the top of the EU that I do not trust in terms of their foreign policy objectives, given the cover they gave to Israel in recent years in the context of the genocide. I do trust the Defence Forces and I do trust the people of this country.  I ask the Minister whether she trusts the people of this country to make the decision. If she does, why does she not put the matter to a referendum, given that this was the basis on which many people were asked to vote in the Nice and Lisbon referendums? This matter was central to those referendums.  The Minister knows quite clearly----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  The triple lock is not in our Constitution. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire  -----that the decisions in the Lisbon and Nice referendums were based on things such as the Seville Declaration. I expect that many people changed their minds because they were given reassurances. Those reassurances are now disappearing into dust because of the policy of the Government. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  This is why we need this debate. To be quite frank, we are talking about amending legislation. The triple lock is not in our Constitution. Our treaties are in the Constitution. The triple lock was never part of our Constitution. We were a militarily neutral country before we voted for the treaties and before we introduced the triple lock. We will continue to be a neutral country. The attempt to suggest that we need to have a referendum to change our Constitution for something that is not in our Constitution is trying to thwart what the actual debate is here.  We are very clear, and if one looks at the legislation----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire  It does not have to be in the Constitution to have a referendum. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  On what? A referendum is to amend the Constitution. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire  It is not. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  This is not in the Constitution. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire  That is a constitutional referendum. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  Please, Deputy \u00d3 Laoghaire. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire  There are other kinds of referendums. Of course there are. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  The Minister should continue. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  The world has changed. I trust----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire  Let us invest in our Defence Forces and ensure we deploy on UN missions. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  This is the debate we will have. The Deputy can shout things----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  We must move on to the next question. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  I do have time and must say that the world has changed. The people I speak to recognise that the world has changed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire  So do we. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  The people I speak to do not like the fact that Russia has essentially removed, or will remove in the coming months, all our peacekeeping troops from UNIFIL, where we have been for decades. That is because of the triple lock. That is what we are trying to amend and adjust, not anything else, contrary to what is being suggested here. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Military Neutrality"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_22","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Tribunals of Inquiry","counts":{"speechCount":8,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_20","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_20","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_22","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_22.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  I look forward to coming back to the topic of the triple lock in a few questions' time.  I have read with extreme concern the reports over the past week on the lack of support provided by the Department of Defence to Women of Honour, whose members are participating in the Defence Forces tribunal. I absolutely understand that it is important to guarantee the independence of the tribunal and I also understand that limited supports are in place, but it is vital that we listen when victims of abuse within our Defence Forces tell us that what is in place is inadequate, especially when, in testifying, they are reliving some of the most difficult moments of their lives. Will the Department commit to providing additional, one-to-one, customised support for those testifying in the tribunal? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  I thank the Deputy for raising this matter. I have met a number of the women from the Women of Honour. I have met them in my Department and in different manners or at different meetings. I have nothing but respect and admiration for each and every one of them. I fully appreciate and have no doubt that what they are going through now is retraumatising for many of them. I have no doubt that their having to tell their stories and experiences time and again is very traumatic and difficult for them. That is why, when I met them earlier this year, I did so with the ambition of assisting and providing them with whatever support I could before the tribunal started. The Deputy is right that the tribunal is independent. It is important that we allow the process to take its course. My intention in meeting the women and listening to their concerns was to put in place whatever supports we could. I thank the women because some of what was said to me at the meeting was very difficult for anybody to have to relay again.  We discussed the need to provide counselling supports. Different mechanisms were being put in place but we were asked whether we could do more than that. Following the meeting, I engaged immediately with my colleague Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill, the Minister for Health, and asked her whether she could put in place a structure, similar to what we have had under other types of tribunals or inquiries, that would provide a counselling service to members of the group who have been or will be attending the tribunal. This is separate from some of the things that have been put in place.  The HSE has said that the service is now set up if there is anybody who wants to engage, and that it is willing to provide this support. This has been relayed. An engagement mechanism and supports are ready. A specific package of counselling measures has been set up for the tribunal once the information that has been requested from the group is received. If there are individuals who feel they are not getting the support they need, there is a mechanism in place. Once we know who they are, we can identify what support is required. I appreciate that they will not necessarily tell me who they want to work with, or who they are engaging with or supporting, but we do have to get that information to be able to pass it on.  There are a number of other supports available to serving and former members of the Defence Forces, and I can touch on them in the next answer. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  I appreciate that the Minister has taken the time to listen to victims and survivors, and I appreciate her respect and admiration. I share her respect and admiration for the very difficult thing these women are doing. I completely understand that the tribunal is beyond the scope of the Minister's remit and this House. However, psychological and pastoral support for those giving testimony has been provided by the Department to a limited degree and it should continue to provide it.  When survivors of abuse are saying the support is not adequate, it is vital that they are listened to and appropriate action is taken. When the supports are not in place, we limit participation in what is an incredibly important process. It is appalling to me that, instead of any active referral or support, many have described receiving a list of numbers and emails for various charities, one of which does not even provide clinical mental health services. That is absolutely unacceptable.  I commend the courage of Women of Honour. I commend the courage of those who are testifying. We know that, for survivors of abuse, recounting what has happened to them can be extremely retraumatising. We need to be able to support survivors throughout that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  I thank the Deputy. I fully agree.  What I want is to make sure that people are proactively engaged with and supported and that they are not handed a list requiring them to go off and try to find support themselves. That is exactly why I met with the Minister for Health and asked that there be something specific and tailored to the tribunal. I have already asked my officials to re-engage to make sure that, if there is information needed by the HSE so that what I have described can happen, and if it is not happening, it should be provided immediately.  Like the Deputy, while I am aware that the tribunal is independent, I am very much conscious of what we are seeing in the media every day. We are hearing the testimonies and seeing people having to relive some of the most traumatic times of their lives. I am very conscious of this, so I have asked my Department to reach out and make sure that if there is a gap where information has not been provided or cannot be, it addresses it.  There are other supports. There is Lena support by Inspire, which is a 24-hour external confidential helpline and counselling service. This is a matter of referral or appointment. There is both telephone and face-to-face counselling, so there are a number of different options. Separately, there is the Organisation of National Ex-Service Personnel, which is funded through the HSE and includes counselling and a 24-7 service.  If there is a gap here, my intention is to address it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  I am glad to hear that intention. I request that the Minister keep my office up to date on how her office is dealing with this. I am aware that some of these supports are in place, but, as was reported a few days ago, several people who have gone through this have said that, while giving evidence, the only assistance offered to them if they became distressed was the opportunity to pause proceedings and have a glass of water.  While an employee assistance programme like Inspire, which the Minister referred to, is good to have, it is not an adequate support for someone who is testifying on their abuse. The answer to someone testifying about their abuse for hours and needing support should not be to ring a number and have to retell their entire story. If help is not being made readily available, if it is not easy to access, and if survivors are saying it does not meet their needs, action must be taken.  Those participating in the Defence Forces tribunal are doing so in the interests of justice and truth and to ensure that this level of abuse never happens again. We all benefit from the maximum possible participation. I am concerned, on foot of these reports from participants, that we are allowing a situation where people feel they must stay silent to protect their own mental health. We need to do everything we can to avoid that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  I fully agree. For any tribunal or inquiry, particularly where we are talking about such sensitive information and such traumatic experiences, people must be trauma informed. That must absolutely be the case. We have been assured that those who are involved and who are engaged with the tribunal have been trauma informed and trauma trained. The type of training that has been provided was outlined at the public hearing on 16 June. I am committing to ensure that if there are gaps or issues, we will make sure that where the HSE support service that has been set up through the Minister, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, following our engagement, is not getting to people and they feel they only have the lines that were made available at the beginning, we will try to rectify that. It is my intention to ensure that people know where the supports are and can access them. Unfortunately, the tribunal is independent in the context of what happens before it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  I acknowledge that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  It is a matter for the judge to progress, but I am assured that people are trauma informed. I will take the Deputy's point and go back to my Department on it specifically to ensure that absolutely everybody has received that training. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Tribunals of Inquiry"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_23","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Defence Forces","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_20","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_20","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_23","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_23.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire  In the context of the previous question, I submitted another question that was ruled out of order, which is fair enough. I probably did not word my question as precisely as Deputy Gibney worded hers. I record my concern about legal representation in that regard. It is important to say that.  This question relates to another welfare issue. I will keep raising this issue. There is scope for the Department to take action here. It can look after the people affected without in any way conflicting with legal cases. I do not want to hear about legal cases. I know the Minister is going to talk about them anyway. Ultimately, the Department can make health and redress interventions without in any way undermining those court cases. Airport personnel were put at risk by chemicals. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  I thank the Deputy for raising the matter. I know he is committed to this issue; I am too. I have in recent months spent some time travelling to different barracks and Army bases and meeting with personnel. What I see all over the country is their professionalism, dedication and commitment. I am proud of that, and I know they are take great pride in the work they do. The health, safety and well-being of our Defence Forces personnel is front and centre in everything that I and the Department do. When we talk about capital investment and investing in equipment, infrastructure and accommodation, and additional finance to improve pay, terms and conditions, it is all with the ambition of ensuring that the health and well-being of our Defence Forces personnel are front and centre.  As the Deputy said, there are ongoing litigation challenges. I will not get into specific detail. It is only a short time since we last had defence questions, so while I do not have a huge number of updates for him, I can say, as I did on the previous occasion, that the courts took a number of cases under active case management. I am advised that the State Claims Agency remains open to engagement. It is important that is known in order that we can try to resolve this issue. More recently, what has happened is that agreements have been reached between a number of parties to engage in formal mediation discussions. It is important that we allow mediation to continue and ensure that nothing we say here will impact that.  A number of individuals have opted to bring their cases through the personal injuries process. It is important that we respect their decision to so and make every effort not to impede the process. In the other instances I have outlined, efforts are under way to see if mutual agreement can be reached.  Approximately 23 cases have come to the fore. We have different processes and ways in which we can engage with each of those individuals. What I want to do is to ensure that it is as straightforward a process as possible. I appreciate that has not been the case for many people. I appreciate that this has been going on for much longer than anybody would like. The measures to which I refer, the State Claims Agency and the mediation process are there. I encourage people to continue to engage with that process. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire  These types of issues of collective harm, collective abuse in some instances and collective injury are things that the State does badly. We can see it. The Minister previously served as Minister for education. We have seen many examples in that area. The response of the State is always to tell people that they can go through the courts. If people do not go to the courts, there is an issue with that. We set up redress schemes and if people do not make a claim within a certain timeframe, they are excluded. We have the recent example of the women who attended Dunderrow National School. Women who were in the same class as Louise O'Keeffe were prevented from bringing forward redress. The point is that when enough pressure comes on, the State eventually remembers - and it knows, in truth - that it does not have to do everything through the courts. If a category of people have had wrong done to them, the State has other measures available without even accepting legal liability. The Minister knows that. There is nothing to prevent the Minister from looking after the health needs of these men and women. She knows that perfectly well. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  I disagree that people are being pushed into the courts. The situation is exactly the opposite. I have said in the Chamber many times since I started taking these questions that the State Claims Agency is there and wants to mediate and work directly with people in order that cases do not go directly to the courts. Steps and procedures have been put in place over years so that people can seek mediation and can go through a process that is not adversarial and does not require them to go to the courts or to take on legal representation. This can be worked through.  The number of cases increased before the most recent mediation outcome. There were 11 or 12 cases and there are now 23. There is a process for all of the people affected. Each case is different. That is what may be different to other places that the Deputy has referenced. Each case is different. There has already been an acknowledgement that at the time, personal protective equipment, PPE, needed to be better. That is why I say now that the investment we are putting into our Defence Forces is not just to provide the best capabilities and types of technology but also means that we are putting in place equipment that is safe and protects our personnel. We have a clear process here and I encourage everybody involved to go through the process. They will be supported. The agency is there to work with them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire  The Minister said that she is not pushing anybody to the courts. I am not a doctor and cannot make a clinical decision, but if people suffered negative health outcomes that they believe have a connection to their clinical exposure, and they have never taken a case, how precisely is the Government going to help them? They are not going to be able to engage with the State Claims Agency unless they have made claims and gone to the courts. They are not going to be able to engage with the State Claims Agency unless they have made a claim and gone to the courts. None of this is necessary. We know what happens in Australia and the Netherlands, and in other areas of this State. Of course, every case and category is different, but the same principle applies. The State can assist people with their medical requirements and can provide ex gratia payments. It can provide a number of different things without accepting legal liability. The Minister knows that because her previous Department, the Department of education, has done it numerous times. The Department of children has done it numerous times - usually under political pressure, but it has done it. There is nothing to stop the Minister doing it. This is not going away. How is the Minister going to address the needs of those people who were exposed to these chemicals - and this is the key detail - who have not taken cases or made a claim against the State? How is the Minister going to help those people? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  Referring to other countries is not helpful in this instance because the situations are not comparable. We have 23 individuals who have brought forward cases, and I fully respect their right to do so. I would prefer it if, through that process, there was mediation in order that the issue could be resolved as quickly as possible. That has been the case for one of the people in question whose case was resolved satisfactorily. If people have issues and concerns, it is important that they come forward and raise their cases. Beyond that, we have a process that people can use. We have a mechanism with which people are already engaging. I ask them and encourage them to continue to engage through that process.  I do not think we can equate this situation with what is happening in the Department of education. What the Minister for education is doing is to ensure that we establish how issues were responded to in our schools at the time. That is exactly what is happening with the tribunal here. The tribunal, which we discussed and which was brought forward through the Women of Honour, will also look at this issue, how it was responded to and how it was dealt with. There is a mechanism there that is similar to what we are doing in education. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Defence Forces"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_24","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Defence Forces","counts":{"speechCount":9,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_20","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_20","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_24","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_24.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mark Wall  Will the Minister provide an update on recruitment numbers for the Defence Forces as of this month? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  We are all committed to strengthening recruitment to and supporting retention in the Permanent Defence Force. The military authorities have advised that the strength of the Permanent Defence Force stood at 7,823 personnel on 31 May, the most recent date for which we have a figure available. Last year saw modest though significant growth of nearly 200 in the overall strength, with a total of 790 inductions achieved. This is the highest number we have had in 20 years. The number of personnel who discharged was at its lowest level in more than five years. I am determined to build on this and have set a target of 850 inductions for 2026. As of 31 May - again these are the most up-to-date figures available - there were a total of 289 inductions, comprising 188 into the Army, 26 into the Air Corps and 75 into the Naval Service. I am pleased that there continues to be very strong interest in careers in the Defence Forces, with a total of 16,510 applications received in 2025 and over 10,000 applications received to end May of this year. The challenge now is to ensure that the target of 850 is achieved.  A draft strategic workforce plan prepared by the Defence Forces has recently been submitted to me for consideration. As the Deputy will be aware, the aim of this process is to provide a pathway to the achievement of a strength of 11,500, inclusive of civilian personnel, commensurate with level of ambition 2. Increases in application numbers and in the overall strength of the Permanent Defence Force over the past three years demonstrate that the key enabling measures the Government has introduced to support and drive Defence Forces recruitment and retention are yielding results. I appreciate it is slow and we need to maintain that momentum and do even more. These measures include significant progress on pay, increases in the maximum ages of recruitment and retirement respectively, the extension of private secondary healthcare to all personnel, the application of the provisions of the working time directive - which had been sought for some time - subject to certain exemptions, and increases in patrol duty allowance. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mark Wall  The Minister is 100% correct that we all want to see recruitment to our Defence Forces continue. However the figures she has given far from the 11,500 sought by the Commission on the Defence Forces by 2028. The Minister mentioned 850 a year. Is that the height of the ambition? It is not going to take us near 11,500.  I will mention a couple of issues. The first is the single public service pension scheme. RACO and PDFORRA have been in contact with the Minister a number of times about this. Has she had any update on that from the Department of Finance or the Department of public expenditure?  On housing, I recently received a reply from the Minister in respect of a parliamentary question on derelict houses in the Curragh and at other barracks around the country. In that reply, she stated that the hope is to bring these houses back into habitable condition. This is what we need to do to improve recruitment to our Defence Forces. We need to look at the pension scheme and we need to provide housing for those who want to enter our Defence Forces, regardless of whether they have families. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  I agree that there are lots of things we need to do. It is not just about pay. We also need to invest in our accommodation and in equipment and technology. Our investment in counter-drone technology and radar equipment is something Defence Forces personnel are excited about. The level of training involved and the ambition there encourages people to want to be part of that, so we need to invest in our infrastructure with the aim of enabling greater levels of recruitment.  I recently opened the university students\u2019 accommodation complement, USAC, building in Galway, which is a 69-bed, state-of-the-art accommodation facility that was completed at a cost of \u20ac12.3 million, and the block 4 accommodation building at the Naval Service Base, Haulbowline, which will accommodate an additional 74 personnel. I also visited Gormanstown Camp, which is in my constituency. It is an impressive facility and will eventually provide for the training of up to 900 recruits. We want to keep increasing the numbers, but infrastructure is required to allow us to do so. Instructors are also required, and that is something we are working on. The beds are not the only thing; it is also about ensuring that we have the instructors to be able to reach those numbers. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mark Wall  There is no single issue here. This is about housing, pensions, pay and conditions. Has the Minister dealt though with the representative organisations on the single public service pension scheme? She might confirm that and let us know whether there is any update.  The Minister mentioned all the other barracks, and that is very welcome and everyone who supports the Defence Forces will welcome that. However, the Curragh has been neglected when it comes to housing. On the basis of the Minister's reply to my previous parliamentary question, there are 63 derelict houses there. Can I get a commitment that she will expedite work on those houses?  I cannot let this opportunity go without mentioning the Curragh of Kildare and what is happening there. I am in contact with the Department, but I ask the Minister to come back as quickly as possible to all the public representatives in Kildare South. This is a huge issue for everybody from the area, and it cannot continue. It has been a month since the scoping meeting was held, and we still do not have an update on what is going to happen next. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  I acknowledge our representative bodies. It is my intention to meet them late in summer. I will be writing to them to that effect. I have already spoken to some of them in respect of this matter. Obviously, whether it is public service pensions or anything else relating to the public service pay agreement, we are working and, where we can, engaging directly with the Department of public expenditure and reform. I have made very clear my views to the representative bodies on the progress I would like to make, but we have to work very closely with the Department. The moves towards the next public sector pay agreement are already starting. We need to make sure we can square off what was agreed in the previous one but also start to look forward to the next one. The Defence Forces representative bodies have representation now they are part of the umbrella body as well.  On infrastructure, A body of work to look at all the infrastructure, etc., that we will in the future is in the process of being concluded. This will feed into the next capital plan. I have no doubt that as part of that the ambition is for the Curragh to be transformed and that there is further investment there. That will require another budget and, obviously, I will be seeking as much as possible in that. I want to be as ambitious as I possibly can. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  I thank the Minister. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  If I could address the final issue, I am very conscious this has been going on for some time. We are engaging extensively with a number of different stakeholders, but I will come back to the Deputy on that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mark Wall  I thank the Minister. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Defence Forces"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_25","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Defence Forces","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_20","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_20","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_25","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_25.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruth Coppinger  When is the victims of crime Act 2017 going to apply the Army? The Women of Honour have pushed for change so that if there is abuse within the Army there will, we hope, be mechanisms to deal with that, but what about women who are abused by Army personnel who are not in the Army? The Minister knows of this case and I am not going to go into any names or details but it shines a light on how we have a situation where a woman who was abused by an Army officer - and potentially another woman as well - has not been able since 2022 to get information on her case. Nothing is being done by the secretive military tribunals that are operating in the Army. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  I thank the Deputy for raising this. I am aware that she has been engaging on this matter and has been trying to make progress. That is certainly something I want to see happen as well.  This was looked at before, so there had been engagement previously when the Criminal Justice (Victims of Crime) Act 2017 was brought forward. At that time, a decision was taken for various reasons that it did not extend to offences under military law and so it would not be possible to include in the legislation at the time. While it may not be the same, since then the Defence Forces, though they are excluded from this, have been very clear that where appropriate they adhere to the principles of the Act within the military justice system and this is reflected in the Defence Forces victim's handbook. In saying that, because of a number of different meetings and engagement I have had, I have asked my officials to look at this again, so there are deliberations taking place. As part of this process, the military authorities have recently provided advice on the matter. That advice is under consideration. I would like to see them included in this, quite frankly, so while a decision was taken for different legal reasons previously, I have asked for that to be looked at again. In particular, there are a number of different things. There needs to be not a greater level of oversight but a greater ability to hold certain structures accountable and to ensure that where our Defence Forces and military personnel are independent, at the same time there is very clear process where I as the Minister, together with the Department, have a role or function in ensuring there is that significant level of accountability. The work of the external oversight body is also really important here.  We spoke about the Women of Honour earlier. We have heard some of the absolutely atrocious accounts from women who have been abused doing their duty and in their job and it is absolutely essential the workplace is one where women feel safe and all personnel feel safe. That is why the work of the external oversight body is important. It is important also that the Defence Forces are working with that body, as I know they are. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruth Coppinger  I have very little time left, but I want to put on record that the woman in question was abused by an Army officer using military equipment and surveillance technology, which is extremely scary.  She made a complaint, which has never been pursued. She found out that a court martial was taking place but it was about smaller charges that were nothing to do with the woman or the other woman either. The feeling of the victim was that this was being facilitated, like an organised pay off of this predator. This may not be true but that was her feeling. Is this officer retired? Is he eligible to retire? Does he have a clean record? Does he have a pension? Will we end up seeing him working in Leinster House? The victim's belief is that the military prosecutor has evidence of a very dangerous man but for some reason, the Army does not seem to be concerned because it has not prosecuted him on those charges. Why would the Army not want to prosecute somebody?  Are we at war or something? Why is it so secretive? Why does the Minister have no jurisdiction over what is going on in the Army? I see a letter arrived a day before this question was due in which the Minister says she has no role here. This is just outrageous. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  From my previous answer, what I want to ensure is that there is a level of oversight and jurisdiction, where there needs to be. At the moment, I am not satisfied that is the case. I will not go into details on the individual in question or any individuals. I have relayed that there are certain things I cannot do at the moment because of how things stand. I am keen to make changes so that there is an appropriate level of oversight. I would again stress that a lot of people in the Defence Forces are very keen to make sure that it is an environment in which people feel safe. I believe it is but where issues arise there are mechanisms in place to support and assist people. The Value Our People survey that was done recently highlights a number of significant challenges that still exist but importantly also where improvements have been made and where there is more work to do. This Value Our People survey will be carried out on a continuous basis so that we can assess what is changing within the Defence Forces, how people are feeling, what challenges are still there and how we can improve. With Patricia King and others through the external oversight body and the work of the Defence Forces themselves, a lot can and will be done in the time ahead. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruth Coppinger  This man said of one woman that he would attach her to a concrete block. He said of another that he would set fire to her. Should this person be getting a pay off from the Army? No, of course, he should not. He should have been put on trial. We have to end a situation where these military prosecutions are secret and where the Minister for Defence does not even have the right to intervene. In a letter to the victim, the Minister said that such matters were internal to the Defence Forces and that she had no statutory role and she was considering what options she had. I trust the Minister will look into this, because I know she has an interest in gender-based violence from her previous role. She is the Minister who can do this and can apply the victims' directive. This officer was involved in a GoFundMe campaign, where rapists' names were used as a joke by the various men who contributed to it. I do not think rape is funny and the Army should not either. That GoFundMe campaign was left up for a long time. Why is the Army a law unto itself in relation to gender-based violence? We know it will deal with soldiers but when women are abused the Army has authority over people. It has uniforms, power, weaponry and surveillance to abuse women. Women outside the Army should be protected from people in the Army and should have the same rights as any other woman. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  Once the GoFundMe campaign the Deputy mentioned was brought to the Army's attention it was taken down immediately. However, the very fact that it was up, or as the Deputy said, the content in it, was completely inappropriate. We need to continue to focus on a number of things. Legislative change is required so that there is oversight where it is needed. I am looking at that at the moment, not just in terms of the victims' charter but also in other ways. The external oversight body, which was only established in April 2023, is working with the Defence Forces to make changes where needed. I regularly meet the chair, the chief of the Defence Forces and others specifically on their work.  As we know, the tribunal is under way at the moment. While I anticipate there will be recommendations from the tribunal, we are already starting to work on some of those in terms of complaints' procedures and in terms of mechanisms that had not been functioning appropriately in the past and how we improve them. I am trying to move ahead and not just wait for any recommendation. We are actually working on them now. I appreciate that it is a very difficult time for a lot of people. At the same time, we need to make sure we are responding to this and putting in place the appropriate mechanisms. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Defence Forces"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_26","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Defence Forces","counts":{"speechCount":7,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_20","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_20","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_26","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Callaghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Catherine-Callaghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_26.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Callaghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Catherine-Callaghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Catherine Callaghan  As a former UN peacekeeper, I am keenly aware of the proud role Ireland has played in international peacekeeping for almost 70 years. With the nature of conflict and traditional UN missions evolving, what does the Minister envisage Ireland's role in international peacekeeping will look like over the next decade? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  I thank the Deputy for the role she has played and for her service to the State. I acknowledge all of those who have served on UN missions and who are currently abroad on missions. We recognise that overseas service is a core task of the Defence Forces. Many men and women join the Defence Forces because they want to take part in international peacekeeping and peace support operations. I envisage we will continue to play a significant role in this area in the decades ahead. We have to. We have to make sure we have the ability to deploy our troops overseas and partake in significant missions, focused on peacekeeping, prevention and training, which they do at the moment. It remains an important element of military life. The opportunity to participate in meaningful overseas missions with unique operational experience, professional development opportunities and the ability to contribute directly to international peace and security is essential. The one thing members of the Defence Forces say to me when they come back is how they can feed back the experience they gain to our troops here. There is also what they bring to the table. When I am abroad I meet regularly with my colleagues, whether the Polish, French, Spanish, UK or Italian minister. They always say Irish peacekeeping troops are well respected and what they contribute and bring to the individual missions is essential. We want to maintain that.  Looking ahead, I expect that we will continue to contribute to various types of missions, namely, peacekeeping, peace support, conflict prevention and crisis management operations, where they are in accordance with Irish law and international law and the principles of the United Nations Charter. The focus and debate now is on the triple lock and how we amend it to make sure those vital missions, whether it be peacekeeping, conflict prevention or crisis management, can continue and that we can continue to send greater numbers of troops abroad, particularly at time when over 300 of our troops will be returning from the UNIFIL mission in Lebanon after this year. That will not be renewed and we still do not know what that might look like. I can touch on what that might be in my next answer. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Callaghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Catherine-Callaghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Catherine Callaghan  I welcome the Minister's response. As someone who has served overseas, I recognise, as the Minister mentioned, that the future of peace support operations may look very different to those that have shaped previous peacekeepers, like me. Looking ahead, does the Minister see Ireland's overseas contribution remaining focused? She has already said that it will always be in accordance with Irish law and international law and the principles of the UN Charter. Does the Minister see that these will be on UN missions, particularly in Africa where many peacekeeping and stabilisation challenges are likely to arise or does she envisage a greater role for Ireland in EU-led peace support operations, or maybe a combination of both? With that in mind, what capabilities does Government believe the Defence Forces will require over the next decade to fulfil those missions effectively? Are we likely to see a greater emphasis on areas such as intelligence, cyber capabilities, drones, force protection, medical support and specialist training, alongside our traditional peacekeeping roles? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  There are a number of things here. What I would like to see - unfortunately, it is not happening at the moment - is that we would have further UN Security Council missions. We have not had any new ones since 2014. That is because the Security Council is not operating as it should. We have other missions that our troops are currently on. A number of personnel are serving in Entebbe in Uganda and in the Middle East. At the moment, my concern for those troops is that those missions could come to an end in the same way that Operation IRINI and the UNIFIL mission in Lebanon have because of the lack of support from individual members of the five permanent members of the UN Security Council. It is my ambition that we could see future UN peacekeeping missions. Beyond that, where that is not possible, we are working with the CSDP missions through the EU. This means much smaller missions. If we look at the overall number of peacekeeping missions we are involved in and the number of troops abroad of just under 400, about 70 of them are not in UNIFIL. All of the various missions are quite small. What we bring to the table, however, is a high level of training. There is a big focus on some of the missions on cyber security, maritime security and bomb disposal, where we have a high level of training from our history. There are different options. As we develop our capabilities, we will be able to do more. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Callaghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Catherine-Callaghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Catherine Callaghan  I thank the Minister and fully support that. Ireland's reputation overseas has been built not only on the professionalism of our peacekeepers but also on the confidence serving personnel and their families have had in the supports and protections associated with overseas UN service. Whether future deployments are UN-led missions in Africa, EU-led peace support operations or other international stabilisation missions, can the Minister assure the serving members of the Defence Forces and, critically, their families that they will continue to receive the same high standards of welfare, support, operational protection, medical care, post-deployment support and recognition that generations of Irish UN peacekeepers have rightly expected? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  I cannot commend our Defence Forces enough on the level of training our personnel get. That is evolving and changing all the time. I was recently in a barracks where there was new technology that enables our Defence Force personnel to train in tanks in a simulated fashion. It allows as many as possible of them to train where there is not the capacity in actual tanks. So, we are now using new equipment. It is Irish companies devising these types of technologies. It means they have the most up-to-date level of training and importantly when they then travel overseas that they have the equipment and the resources they need.  I cannot stress enough the regard in which Irish troops are held. Quite a number of personnel from other battalions have been killed in Lebanon in recent months where there has been crossfire between Israeli Defense Forces and Hezbollah. In many instances where there have been casualties, Irish troops have come to their aid and through their own resources and own capabilities have been able to support others as well as themselves. It is really important we continue that emphasis on working with each other, supporting each other and also supporting other troops on the ground. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  Deputy Callaghan is taking Question No. 122 on behalf of Deputy Barry Ward. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Defence Forces"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_27","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":false,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_27","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_28","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"EU Presidency","counts":{"speechCount":14,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_27","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_27","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_28","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Callaghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Catherine-Callaghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_28.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Callaghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Catherine-Callaghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Catherine Callaghan  As Ireland holds the Presidency of the Council of the European Union, can the Minister outline what formal defence and security arrangements are currently in place with EU member states and the UK to ensure the appropriate security resilience and defence mechanisms are available throughout the Presidency? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  As the Deputy knows, Ireland's Presidency of the Council of the European Union began on 1 July. It is a major national undertaking for many different reasons. In preparation for the Presidency, including in relation to security, there has been significant and intense work for some time across Government.  An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, under the auspices of the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration, has primary responsibility for security for the Presidency. The Deputy may also be aware that An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na has established a dedicated European Union Presidency co-ordination office to oversee all aspects of operational planning, logistics and inter-agency engagement because it is not just the Garda leading on this but it is obviously working very closely with a number of different bodies.  Among the roles assigned to the Defence Forces by Government is the provision of aid of the civil power which, in practice, means to assist An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na when requested to do so. On each occasion that the support of the Defence Forces is required, An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na requests their assistance and accordingly any security assessments and consequent decisions to seek support from the Defence Forces in terms of security provision are a matter for An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na in the first instance and then they work closely together.  The Deputy will appreciate that I cannot comment on specific security arrangements that may be put in place and the Defence Forces cannot comment on any specific arrangements due to operational security. I can confirm, however, that the Defence Forces has stood up a joint task force to co-ordinate any Defence Forces supports to operations conducted during the EU Presidency period.  The Defence Forces have an excellent working relationship with An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na and will continue to liaise with it in order to ensure the best supports that can be provided are provided when needed.  Separately, the Department of Defence maintains a number of bilateral and multilateral defence co-operation arrangements with partner countries, including memorandums of understanding with the United Kingdom and France. These arrangements provide frameworks for developing and furthering bilateral co-operation across a range of areas which include joint procurement, maritime security and cyber security. The maritime security strategy, launched earlier this year, particularly looks at how we can work more closely together. This is really where the Defence Forces' role comes to the fore in the maritime space where we need to make sure we have a complete picture on land and below sea as to what exactly is happening. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Callaghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Catherine-Callaghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Catherine Callaghan  I agree that the maritime security strategy is a great document. One of the lessons of recent years is that threats to national security no longer come solely in conventional military forms. We have seen increasing concerns around cyberattacks, disinformation, threats to subsea cables, as referenced, attacks on critical infrastructure and vulnerabilities in our energy and communication networks.  The Presidency places Ireland at the centre of European decision-making and naturally raises our international profile. Against that backdrop, is the Minister satisfied the arrangements currently in place with our European partners and the UK are sufficient to ensure sufficient deterrence, situational awareness and resilience? Furthermore, has the experience of holding the Presidency highlighted any capability gaps that may require deeper co-operation in areas such as maritime security, cyber defence or intelligence sharing? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  As the Deputy rightly said, over the past number of years, we have seen changing types of threats or challenges that we had not faced previously. Maritime security is to the fore in that regard. As a country, our maritime domain is seven times the size of our landmass. It is really important that where we have such a large number of critical subsea cables, energy infrastructure, and gas infrastructure quite literally on our seabed, we have the equipment to identify where there are risks and where there are threats and if issues emerge, how we can respond to them. That is where the Deputy will see a huge amount of our focus lie during our Presidency.  The strategy sets out how we will ensure there is a greater situational awareness of what is happening in our maritime domain. That requires investing in our capability - in our own ships, helicopters and technology and equipment - to be able to identify what is happening above and below the sea. It is about making sure we strengthen our partnerships. Of course, we will be looking to our neighbours in that regard, namely, the UK and France, but beyond that as well. There is a number of different programmes, the Joint Expeditionary Force, JEF, being one of them, which is a programme looking at maritime security for a lot of the north Atlantic countries. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  Thank you, Minister. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  That is something we said we are very interested in joining. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  I call Deputy Callaghan. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  All of this helps to build that sense of security but also helps us share our experience and mitigate some of the risks now coming to the fore. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Callaghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Catherine-Callaghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Catherine Callaghan  Quite rightly, as the Minister pointed out, the Presidency has highlighted both the importance of international co-operation and the reality that Ireland cannot currently provide every aspect of its own defence and security requirements. However, let us be fair about that. There is probably no European country that can completely defend itself alone against every conceivable major threat. We are not an outlier in that regard and that is really important to note. Most European states rely on alliances for collective defence. As we look towards the next decade, does the Minister foresee a greater resilience on that structured partnership with the EU member states and with the UK in areas such as airspace security, maritime surveillance, cyber defence and critical infrastructure protection? While the Minister has outlined some specific capability gaps there in terms of increasing the number of ships and helicopters, technology, etc., does she believe that will help us become less dependent on others and more resilient in our own right? Does the Minister have a timeline for when those capability gaps can be closed? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  When we talk about our security and our defence, we are talking about keeping people safe. We are also talking about protecting critical infrastructure, which could be subsea cables, the HSE and our national infrastructure, and it is then about working together to be able to respond to those threats as they emerge. That will require us working closely with other countries. That is already happening. If we even look at NATO, we are in part of 12 Partnerships for Peace, which focus on maritime security, focus on training and focus on cyber security. So, we have a lot to contribute and a lot we can do there.  When it comes to certain types of technology and certain types of equipment, there is a lot Irish companies are doing and small and medium sizes are investing in. This is something I am trying to highlight to other countries because, while we might be small and have a smaller army, we do have a lot to contribute to those spaces as well.  During our Presidency, but in particular when I came into the Department, we are bringing forward our capabilities in radar. This has come to the fore of our capital plan so we have a complete radar picture. The intention is that will be in place by 2028. That is about making sure we can see completely what is happening in our skies, on land and at sea as well. Part of that is a sonar programme that is already out to tender and is being developed. So there are a lot of capabilities we are progressing but the Deputy is right that no country can respond to threats on its own. That is why it is really important we are working closely with our nearest neighbours and also with our colleagues in the EU and beyond. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  I ask the Minister to keep an eye on the time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  I am sorry. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  I am trying to get in as many questions as I can. I do not want to be setting a bad example by allowing people to go over their time slots. That is why I had to ring the bell. I thought the Minister was completely ignoring me. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  Apologies. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"EU Presidency"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_29","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"United Nations","counts":{"speechCount":8,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_27","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_27","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_29","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_29.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  Question No. 123 is in the name of Deputy \u00d3 Snodaigh. I understand Deputy \u00d3 Laoghaire is taking it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire  We have all probably been guilty of the offence of going over time at different stages, I am sure.  Despite our disagreements in relation to the triple lock, I think the Minister and I agree that peacekeeping missions are important. They matter to the world, the communities in which they are located and the regions but they also matter to the development and progression of Defence Forces personnel. It is part of what people sign up for. There are currently 11 direct UN peacekeeping missions, with more under Chapter VIII, but this question primarily relates to the direct missions. There is now, with the ending of UNIFIL, greater capacity to consider additional UN missions in different locations across Europe, western Asia and southern Asia. Have we responded to requests from the UN? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  I thank the Deputy. At the outset, I thank the men and women of \u00d3glaigh na h\u00c9ireann for the outstanding professionalism and commitment with which they deploy, and have deployed, on UN peacekeeping missions. It is important to stress that there have been no new peacekeeping missions through the UN Security Council since 2014. That is a source of great regret for all of us. It is not operating as it should and I think we would all like to see the issues there being addressed. At the same time, though, we know exactly why there are issues and why the five permanent members, in the role they have, are contributing to this. This is the context in which any request for additional or enhanced participation by Ireland from the UN has to be understood. There is a limited number of missions. There are no new missions, so there is only so much we can partake in.  In regard to UN requests over the past ten years, in September 2019, we had 14 Defence Forces personnel deployed to a UN mission in Mali as part of a joint operation with the German armed forces. This arose from a proposal made by Ireland rather than a request from the UN. Our participation in that concluded in 2022. In December 2021, we received a request from the UN to provide members of the Defence Forces to support the United Nations Mine Action Service in Entebbe, Uganda. One Defence Forces expert is currently serving with this training initiative under this arrangement.  As of 30 June 2026, Ireland is contributing 394 Defence Forces personnel to overseas peacekeeping missions and commitments. As I mentioned earlier, 320 of those personnel are currently in UNIFIL. This will conclude in December 2026, which leaves just 74 of our personnel on other missions. We have 12 personnel deployed in an observer force in Golan in Syria. We have a number of missions in the Middle East, where we have personnel deployed. We have three personnel in the Syrian mission and 12 in the Middle East. We also have observers and staff deployed to various United Nations and Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, OSCE, missions. I can touch on what the opportunities may or may not be in my next answer. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire  That is important and the Minister and I share that view, much as we disagree on how it is not right to get rid of the triple lock. We have made that very clear and we think there is scope to deploy on peacekeeping missions elsewhere. We would like to see the UN and the manner in which it works reformed significantly, not just in relation to peacekeeping. There is significant scope for reform there.  I hope that there is going to be a list in the written response I receive to this question. The Minister gave a few examples. It is important that we understand the picture that is out there right across the world. There are five or six missions in Africa. Have we explored deploying to those? A lot of them are very long-standing missions, with some going back several decades and most looking as if they are there for the long term. Unfortunately, the conflict situations around those remain tense and require a peacekeeping presence. There is potential scope in those missions as well as in some of the other western and southern Asian locations. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  Unfortunately, at this present time, there are no requests for us to participate in any other UN peacekeeping missions. I know that if you are not part of a mission at the outset, the scope for you to join afterwards is significantly impacted in terms of the number of personnel and the types of role you can take on.  In regard to the mission in the Middle East that I mentioned, I would be concerned about the possibility of what happened with Operation Irini and UNIFIL, where the UN mandates were not renewed, happening there. We would suddenly have 12 personnel - it is quite a small number, but still 12 personnel - who were not able to partake in the mission. There is a smaller number in Syria.  What we have at the moment are a number of posts that are filled in the UN, the EU and NATO as part of Partnership for Peace, and in the OSCE headquarters as well. There are also various training missions that we are part of, many of which are through the Common Security and Defence Policy, CSDP, so they are not UN-mandated through Security Council meetings.  At the moment, there are no requests or plans to participate in missions. The most significant mission we have is UNIFIL. That work is under way and those conversations are happening at the moment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire  As I probably will not get more questions and it is my last contribution before the recess, I wish to take the opportunity to thank the staff of this institution and the Ceann Comhairle's office, who serve us so well. To be fair, I will also thank the officials of the Department of Defence for their co-operation over the course of the past year. They are not necessarily listening but I thank the officials of the Department of foreign affairs and the Minister's team on that side as well. I thank the Minister, who should be acknowledged for her co-operation at various stages.  Returning to the question, we raised this in committee with the Minister a number of weeks ago. I am concerned that all of our eggs are in the one basket but if we remove the triple lock, then we will have more options. It seems to me as if there does not seem to be a desire on the part of the Minister or her Department to explore the existing peacekeeping missions, even though there are multiples of them. I know we have small representations on some of them but there are several that we have no relationship with at this moment in time. I think there is capacity and it would be to the benefit of those locations to have experienced peacekeeping personnel, given our track record and the esteem in which we are held, and also to the benefit of our Defence Forces. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  It is the case that no mission is the same, so it is also a matter for the Defence Forces to assess and scope out the mission and then to decide whether it is a mission we can partake in. A question keeps being asked about what it is we would not be able to be a part of if we were to keep the triple lock. I am concerned that the troops we have on the ground currently are going to be removed from the missions they are on, and that is what is happening. UNIFIL is now closing. It is finishing up and we have 320 troops who will have to come home. Operation Irini is still operating but because the mandated mission fell, our troops have to come home. We have 12 who are in the Middle East but that mission could very well end because it is not renewed. Those troops would have to come home, as would the three who are in Syria. For every future mission, it will depend on the type of mission, so I cannot say exactly what missions we might be able to join if we remove the triple lock. I know that our hands are tied completely at the moment by the fact that others can decide whether we stay in missions, never mind whether we go to others.  Finally, I have no doubt that my officials are listening but if they are not, I will pass on the Deputy's thanks to them as well. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire  The foreign affairs side as well. I am sure the Department of Defence officials are there. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"United Nations"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_30","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Defence Forces","counts":{"speechCount":9,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_27","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_27","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_30","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_30.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  Has there been any progress in relation to the investigations into the death of Private Se\u00e1n Rooney? He is still missed in Dundalk and Donegal by family, friends and comrades. I know the Minister's legal representative in Lebanon has engaged with the military tribunal. My question is also about Mr. Michael Delaney's post-incident inquiry, whether all the due diligence has been done on that, whether we can see its publication, and if it can be provided to the family. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  I thank the Deputy for his continued engagement on this matter. It is appreciated and I reaffirm our shared commitment to truth and justice, not least for Private Rooney, but in particular for his family.  Unfortunately, I can confirm that there has been no change in the status of the appeal that was taken since I last addressed the matter in the D\u00e1il. My Department's Lebanese legal representative continues to actively engage with the president of the military cassation tribunal to seek updates on its progress. We remain advised that the tribunal has not yet reached a determination. This, as the Deputy will understand, is due to judicial decisions to delay procedures because of the current conflict in Lebanon. Despite the fact that there should be a ceasefire, we know that conflict is ongoing and, unfortunately, escalating in the region. However, my officials continue to remain in close and ongoing contact with our legal representatives as we await these further developments.  I am absolutely committed to ensuring that Private Rooney\u2019s family is kept informed on developments and it remains my intention to travel to Lebanon, where I will raise Private Rooney\u2019s case directly with the Lebanese Government. I have spoken to officials on the phone and to my colleagues in Brussels in person but I want to meet them on the ground as well, as the Taoiseach and T\u00e1naiste have previously done in this role.  Regarding the coroner\u2019s inquest into the death of Private Rooney, hearings have been ongoing. To date, they have focused primarily on procedural matters. The next hearing is scheduled to take place on 22 July, and my Department and the Defence Forces are co-operating with this process in full. The coroner has scheduled the opening of the substantive inquest from 17 November.  The independent inquiry carried out by Mr. Michael Delaney SC has been completed. I thank Mr. Delaney for his work on the report. As mentioned previously, the report examined the internal tactics, techniques, processes and procedures of the Defence Forces with a view to identifying lessons arising from the circumstances surrounding Private Rooney\u2019s death. I reviewed the report and referred it to the Office of the Attorney General for advice regarding its publication. This advice has been received and the next step essentially is that I want it to be able to be presented to the family on a limited basis so that its confidential contents can be provided in a restricted release. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  I welcome that. I have spoken previously to the Minister about the necessity of providing Mr. Delaney's report on the incident to Natasha and the wider family. Whatever part of it can be published should be because it is all about learnings to ensure the safety of our peacekeepers when they operate abroad, while also providing necessary information to the family and others as regards the tragic death of Se\u00e1n Rooney.  We all understand that Lebanon is going through a nightmare. The madness of the American regime and genocidal Israel needs to be called out and we need to take whatever action we can. Hopefully, we can see some movement from European partners, but we have to maintain that contact and ensure that the Lebanese authorities do not step away from the necessity of providing justice to the family of Se\u00e1n Rooney. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  I have reviewed the report and referred it to the Office of the Attorney General for advice regarding its publication. The advice has been received and officials in my Department are examining it. I want to ensure that we facilitate, albeit in a limited way, the release of the report to certain individuals with a material interest in its contents on a confidential basis. This, of course, includes Private Rooney's family. I hope to meet the family again in the next couple of weeks. We will work towards that. I want to be clear that I want the family to receive it, but there is a legal side to it as well.  The Deputy is right. Irrespective of what is happening in Lebanon, we need to make sure that we continue to engage. Under Lebanese law, an appeal can be made on the grounds of an omission, an essential formality or a fault in the application, and this is the ground under which the appeal has been taken. Our Lebanese legal representative will continue to engage with the newly appointed military cassation president and is maintaining direct contact with my Department. Despite the fact that conflict is ongoing, we are in constant engagement so that we receive any further update immediately. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  We need to ensure that the engagement with Lebanon is ongoing. Are we happy with the interaction with the UN? There had been some issues relating to the coroner's court. Everyone needs to do everything that can be done to ensure truth and justice for the family of Private Se\u00e1n Rooney.  Does the Minister have any idea of the timeline for the family to see Mr. Delaney's report? I am working on the basis that it will be provided to a number of stakeholders beyond them but will not be published.  I take this opportunity to thank the Ceann Comhairle, the Leas-Cheann Comhairle and the staff of Leinster House for those occasional periods when we actually get things done for people. More of it should happen. At this time, I usually also make apologies for any nuisance that I have caused. I know that the Leas-Cheann Comhairle will not believe that is true in any way. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  A welcome apology. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  I would like to think that we get a lot of things done, but I acknowledge the Deputy's work as well.  I appreciate that the outcome of the criminal trial was somewhat disappointing for the family. Given that we now have the appeal and it is dragging on as well is very difficult for the family. This has been exacerbated by the fact that the conflict is making it very difficult for authorities and other elements to function in an appropriate and normal way throughout what has been an appalling attack on innocent civilians who have been caught up again in the wider conflict in the Middle East. From a wider perspective, our focus is on trying to bring the ongoing conflict to an end. In this case, our focus remains steadfast on finding peace and justice for Private Rooney and his family. There will be a limited release of the report but, importantly, the family will have it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  What is the timeline? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  I cannot give the Deputy an exact timeline but it has gone to the Attorney General and has come back, so I should be able to engage with the family soon. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Defence Forces"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_31","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Military Neutrality","counts":{"speechCount":29,"speakerCount":8},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_27","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_27","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_31","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":" A Deputy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_31.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  I will build on the Minister's conversations with Deputy \u00d3 Laoghaire and ask about the status of her plans to abolish the triple lock, the timelines and so forth as regards the legislation that is intended to be discussed later this year. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Defence (Deputy Thomas Byrne)  I propose to take Questions Nos. 125, 140, 157 and 185 together.  I am taking this question on behalf of the Minister. A commitment to reform what is known as the triple lock was set out in the programme for Government. The rationale for this reform is that the current requirement for a UN Security Council constrains Ireland's ability to participate in peacekeeping and crisis management operations because of the use, or threat of use, of a veto by any permanent member of the UN Security Council. The Government considers that decisions regarding the deployment of Irish personnel should be taken in this D\u00e1il and by this Government under our Constitution and legislation rather than being dependent on factors outside the State's control.  The purpose of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2026 is to consolidate, with amendments, the existing provisions of the Defence Acts relating to the despatch of members of the Defence Forces for service outside the State. The Government approved the text of the Bill on 9 June 2026. The Bill has been published and will be progressed through the Houses of the Oireachtas in the autumn term.  The principal change is the removal of the requirement for a UN mandate as a condition for the deployment of members of the Defence Forces overseas, but the Bill retains existing requirements for both Government approval and D\u00e1il approval before such a deployment can take place. Crucially, the legislation also continues to ensure and require that deployments take place as part of an international force, which could be the UN, the EU or the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe or another regional organisations----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  Could it be NATO? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Thomas Byrne  -----in accordance with UN principles and, of course, in accordance with our own Constitution, which commits us to peace and friendly relations among nations.  The triple lock is a statutory mechanism. The reforms are designed to ensure that Ireland can continue to make an effective contribution to international peace support and crisis management missions while preserving our policy of military neutrality and maintaining robust democratic oversight of overseas deployments.  The Bill contains clear safeguards. Overseas deployments will continue to be limited to missions conducted for the purposes of peacekeeping, conflict prevention and the strengthening of international security consistent with the UN Charter and international law. The Bill ensures that Ireland's participation in overseas missions will continue to be grounded in our Constitution; in international law, to which the Constitution subjects itself; and the principles of the UN Charter. Any deployment will remain subject to democratic oversight through the approval of the Government and the D\u00e1il. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  I am curious as to why the Minister has chosen not to take this question. In her earlier exchange with Deputy \u00d3 Laoghaire, she said that she welcomed debate. For continuity, I intended to pick up on some of the things the Minister said, so it is a shame that we are chopping and changing.  The triple lock and the UN constitute international law in action. That it is what we are looking at. It is not, as the Minister of State has reduced it to, a veto. That is not what is happening here. Throughout this debate, the Department and the Government have displayed a lack of appetite to reform the Security Council or to get General Assembly approval. They have tried nothing and yet they are all out of ideas.  The uniting for peace resolution has been used in the past. Any time we raise these as suggestions, they are batted off as being too hard or too complex but the Government has not made the effort. At a time when international law is so precarious and the United Nations is under so much pressure, this is not the approach we need. What we need is collaboration, co-operation and an upholding of the global order. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  I, too, want to ask about the senior Minister. This came up at the D\u00e1il reform committee last week. It is very peculiar that a senior Minister is here and has answered previous questions on the triple lock today and then \u2013 no offence meant - we have the junior Minister answering these questions, which precisely prevents the continuation of the debate. The same thing happened previously. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  We are all on the same page. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  If you are, why are you not answering? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Helen McEntee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","memberCode":"Helen-McEntee.D.2013-03-27","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Helen McEntee  Deputy Byrne is at the Department of Defence as well. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  Hopefully the junior Minister will be able to clarify. The Minister, Deputy McEntee, said earlier to Deputy \u00d3 Laoghaire, \"The people I speak to do not like the fact that Russia has essentially removed, or will remove in the coming months, all our peacekeeping troops from UNIFIL\". I ask the junior Minister to clarify on the Minister's behalf that presumably she did not mean Russia but, rather, the US and Israel, and that is misinformation she read into the record. I also ask him to clarify why the draft Bill refers to principles of the UN Charter rather than articles of the UN Charter. Is it because the Government does not want to be bound by international law, which is very clear in its conditions, but, rather, by general principles of the UN Charter? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Thomas Byrne  We are bound by international law. We are bound by international law since our Constitution came into force and we continue to be bound by international law and always will be, no matter what happens to this legislation. International law governs what we do as a Government. Article 29 of the Constitution constrains us and we have to operate in accordance with its principles. Article 29 requires us to promote international law, friendly relations among the nations and peace, essentially. Those are legal requirements, not simply objectives. To be clear, any deployment by the Irish Government and the D\u00e1il of troops abroad has to be as part of an international force. That can mean the UN, the EU, the OSCE or other regional organisations. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  Can the Minister of State confirm it can mean NATO? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Thomas Byrne  That can mean those. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  Yes. Is that a \"Yes\", then? Thank you. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Thomas Byrne  Switzerland, the classical neutral country that is not even a member of the European Union and will never join the European Union, it is so neutral and independent, accepts UN, EU and OSCE mandates. I understand the situation is similar in Austria, which is another neutral country. By the way, it is also similar in Germany. I cannot find any other country in the world where the government has to go to the UN. There have been problems at the UN Security Council.  The truth is that if the triple lock continues, Irish peacekeeping comes to an end. The facts bear that out. We have already seen it this year with Operation Irini, which the Deputy has now started to criticise. Our people left on that day and the mission continues. Frankly, we are the big losers in that because our people, our Defence Forces members who are ultimately there to protect this State and its people, are losing the experience and superb training they were getting because of the veto at the UN Security Council and the actions of one member. UNIFIL is coming to an end of the year. We will have more members of the Defence Forces working in office roles in Brussels than we will on peacekeeping missions at the end of the year because of the triple lock and the fact that the United Nations is not mandating any more peacekeeping missions. That is what this legislation is addressing and what we need to do to ensure we continue to play our role internationally but also, crucially, to ensure that incredible experience that members of our Defence Forces get abroad can be transferred and translated into an Irish experience. I saw them in action recently, protecting senior-level guests coming to the opening ceremony of the European Presidency. I thank our troops for all they are doing at home and abroad. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  When the Minister of State referred to office roles in Brussels, was he describing roles in NATO headquarters?  The international forces the Minister of State is describing are exactly like the coalition that invaded Iraq. It was clarified at the defence committee that, should the triple lock not have been in place, we would have been in a position to deploy troops to Iraq.  I again go back to the point that the Government's whole argument on this is dependent on the fact that it continues to maintain it supports neutrality. Once we cut that out from underneath its argument, everything else collapses. I maintain that is indeed the position. What the Minister of State is describing about the triple lock being this big bad beast that is preventing the Government from doing everything is just not true. What is true is that the Government wishes to pivot from peacekeeping towards the deployment of troops for regional interests. That is the actual truth. Once we start to pick that apart, it is clear the public does not agree with the Government. In poll after poll, members of the public do not agree with it. Councils throughout the country do not agree and have voted to protect the triple lock. The Government's backbenchers are revolting; they too do not agree. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  The Minister of State assured us we are bound by international law but then went on to talk about the fact that he wants to deploy troops outside the framework of international law. That is why the Government is getting rid of the triple lock. All the triple lock does is ensure that we only can send troops in line with international law. The Minister of State, Deputy Troy, stated, \"Ireland's position on the use of force where there is no UN mandate or authorisation is well established and known. For fear that anyone is in any doubt, let me be clear: it is wrong and it is illegal.\" The UN Charter is really clear. A country can use its troops when it is being attacked - which the triple lock does not apply to - or when it is for a UN-authorised peacekeeping mission. The Government wants to send troops abroad outside of that framework. Its defence is that we should not worry because the Government is only going to send them as part of an international force. I do not think anyone here thinks the Government is going to invade a country all by itself. Can the Minister of State confirm that NATO would be a designated international force under the draft legislation to get rid of the triple lock? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Thomas Byrne  To be clear on what our troops will be doing, they will be doing peacekeeping, peace enforcement and conflict prevention. That is what the law says; not what the Deputy imagines it to be. We are bound by our Constitution and international law. The legislation changes nothing in that regard. Ireland has been a member of Partnership for Peace for more than 25 years. We heard the same scare stories more than 25 years ago about Ireland joining Partnership for Peace but people do not seem to realise we are in it. Some Members who sit on the benches opposite visited our troops in Kosovo where they are engaged in incredibly important peacekeeping work. That is a NATO operation operating under a UN mandate. Our troops have been there for more than 20 years and are doing an excellent job. We are very proud of the work they do in what are often very dangerous circumstances.  Let us be 100% clear: our troops will only ever do peacekeeping, peace enforcement or conflict prevention in accordance with the principles of the UN Charter and, of course, as with every action of this Government, in accordance with the Constitution. We cannot go beyond our Constitution and Article 29. We want to continue the role we have played. That role is unfortunately coming to an end for the vast majority of our troops. The number of Irish peacekeepers will reduce by approximately 90% because of the triple lock requirements and the inaction of the United Nations. Deputy Murphy said he does not believe Irish troops will be sent out to war, etc., and he is absolutely correct in saying that----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  Just by yourself. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Thomas Byrne  The Deputy is absolutely correct. I do not know whether his colleagues in Sinn F\u00e9in are left or right at this stage. I am not sure they know themselves where they sit in the pecking order but they keep saying----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mary Lou McDonald  Come on. Zero out of ten for originality. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Thomas Byrne  -----that we are sending our sons and daughters out to war. People now see that type of language is completely exposed. Sinn F\u00e9in members do not believe it themselves; they know it is not true. They are making it up.  As for our people who are working in Brussels, they are doing incredibly important roles in terms of cybersecurity and all of the additions, such as looking after the maritime domain. We are very proud of our people who work in the EU institutions and other international institutions. Some work----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  In the NATO building? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Thomas Byrne  We are not a member of NATO. I hate to break the news that we are not a member of NATO. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Thomas Gould  Not yet. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Thomas Byrne  We are not a member of NATO. We are part of----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" A Deputy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" A Deputy  Are they working in NATO headquarters? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  If the Minister of State, Deputy Byrne, does not mind - would Members please allow the Minister of State to finish and stop cutting in on him so that we can do our business properly? I am going to conclude. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Thomas-Byrne.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Thomas Byrne  Some Members did accept the invitation to go to visit some of our peacekeeping missions. I am very glad they did. I invite Members opposite to meet some of our military personnel abroad in the various institutions that they work with - the EU, the UN or indeed the Partnership for Peace. They can meet them and see the work they do and they will come out of that room extremely proud of what our Irish Defence Forces personnel are doing, not just in peacekeeping roles but also in international organisations. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Is f\u00e9idir teacht ar Cheisteanna Scr\u00edofa ar www.oireachtas.ie. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Written Answers are published on the Oireachtas website. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Military Neutrality"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_32","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna \u00f3 Cheannair\u00ed - Leaders' Questions","counts":{"speechCount":54,"speakerCount":10},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_32","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Deputies","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Natasha Newsome Drennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Fitzmaurice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Fitzmaurice.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Michael-Fitzmaurice.D.2014-10-10","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mary Lou McDonald  There is someone the T\u00e1naiste knows very well in the Public Gallery. She is the unstoppable and heroic Cara Darmody. Cara has just completed her third 50-hour protest outside the D\u00e1il, calling for real action for children and young people waiting for an assessment of need. It is high time that the Government did the right thing, as Cara has asked for. In fact, the T\u00e1naiste might take the opportunity to meet with her before she leaves Dublin.  People in wheelchairs gathered outside Leinster House on Tuesday. They are people living with Friedreich's ataxia. This is a progressive degenerative neurological disease. They were here at the D\u00e1il because they have been waiting two years for access to Skyclarys, a drug that can slow down the relentless progression of their condition. Their hopes were very high that the HSE drugs committee would finally approve Skyclarys, but those hopes were to be dashed. The committee decided against approving the drug. Instead, it referred it to a rare disease review group. In other words, one committee passing the buck to another committee. That means more delay and more time wasting - time that these people simply do not have because this condition does not slow down. It does not pause. It does not stop for the summer holidays or recess, it just gets worse. It robs people of their ability to stand, walk and swallow. It can rob them of their sight and their speech. When Friedreich's ataxia strikes a person's body, it invades every facet of them. Time just changes for a person. Time moves far more quickly, and time is running out from many of these people. This cruel condition moves relentlessly, ravaging their bodies and their lives, yet the system stands still, putting up obstacle after obstacle, forcing them to wait and wait as time slips by.  This drug was approved by the EU Commission back in 2024. Two years on, it is available in France, Germany, Portugal, Italy, Spain and Czechia. It is available in Britain, Canada and the United States of America, but not here. The people who gathered on Tuesday outside Leinster House see people in other countries getting help while they are left to deteriorate. Emily Felix is one of these people. She is now 28. She has been living with Friedreich's ataxia since she was 12. She says the system is telling her that her life is not worth saving. Craig Coady from Cork lost 13-year old Rory to this condition last September. Now he watches as Paudie, his other son, aged 16, deteriorates with the same disease. He says Paudie does not have weeks to wait. He says, \"I can't lose him [too]. He is all I have left.\" That is what is at stake here. This is urgent. Caithfidh an Rialtas an rud ceart a dh\u00e9anamh d\u00f3ibh si\u00fad a bhfuil Friedreich's ataxia orthu. N\u00ed tr\u00e1th moille \u00e9.  Of course medications have to be properly assessed, but it has been going on for two years. Decisions have to be taken and time is running out. The T\u00e1naiste can fix this. He can bring the pace and urgency that is necessary. The Taoiseach says he will not bring that. Right now, today, people living with Friedreich's ataxia are watching this exchange. They want the T\u00e1naiste to intervene. They do not have weeks or months. They are now counting on him to do something to make this right. What is the T\u00e1naiste going to do? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Deputies","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputies  Hear, hear. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an Teachta McDonald. I thank her for the question. First, I join with her in welcoming Cara Darmody back to D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann. It is good to see her again. While she continues her campaign in relation to improvements around assessments of need and disability services in general, it is also worth noting that she has already changed Ireland for the better with the creation of the fund that has made a real difference in terms of more children getting assessments. My colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Higgins, who is here, along with the Minister, Deputy Foley, are committed to bringing forward legislation on the assessment of need process. We look forward to engaging with her on that soon. She is very welcome back. I look forward to seeing her soon.  I thank Deputy McDonald for raising what is genuinely an important issue. I do take the point that when we talk about this in the abstract or from a process point of view in here, that for people watching this is their real lived experience. I know there are people across this House, including Deputy McDonald, who have engaged with patients and families on this drug. I fully understand that it is a worrying and anxious time for them. Today, my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Higgins, met with Muscular Dystrophy Ireland. As the Deputy can imagine, this was an issue it quite rightly highlighted as well. I think there might have been officials from the Department there as well.  I accept that this is frustrating for people at home, but I still need to say it: there is an ongoing process under way. That is a process guided by science. It is a clinically led process. The HSE is currently assessing this medication. Deputy McDonald is right: there was consideration by the HSE's drugs group on 14 July and it made the decision to seek additional advice from the rare diseases technology review committee. Where I somewhat disagree with her emphasis is that I do not see that as passing a file from one committee to the other; I actually see it as an opportunity to bring together the experts. The purpose of this is to bring in national clinical experts in this condition, crucially with patient representatives, so as to have their voices as well, ensuring that their lived experience plus specialist expertise informs the assessment. There is a deadline given to this work of four weeks as well. Referral to a rare disease committee is intended to ensure that every possible opportunity is given to a medicine to demonstrate its effectiveness for patients.  I take the Deputy's point in relation to 2024. I would just make the point - this does not matter a huge amount to patients, but it is the truth - that the commercial proposal was actually received from the company in Ireland on 27 May 2026, so it is not a question of the Government or indeed our representatives through the HSE or clinicians have been in any way dilly-dallying on this. The application actually came in----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Natasha Newsome Drennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan  That was there on the 21st. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I do not know who said that----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Natasha Newsome Drennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan  It was the 21st. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  -----but I am just relaying in good faith the information. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  Deputy Newsome Drennan should allow the T\u00e1naiste to speak. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  The 27 May 2026 is when the information came in versus 2024, but I accept the seriousness of this matter. Again, this is also just the truth: there are mixed views on the science in relation to this. A number of European countries have said \"No\". Some have said \"Yes\". We would not have a situation where the HSE drugs group was deciding to set up a rare diseases expert panel to look at this, to bring together the national experts and the patient advocates, to hear their voices and views, if they did not want to give this every possible chance.  I take the point about timelines. That is why it is important that there is a four-week period now to hear those voices, to hear that lived experience and, crucially, to hear from the doctors. I am not one. We must hear from the clinical experts who specialise in this condition in Ireland about the effectiveness of this drug. We will continue to monitor the outcome of that very closely. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mary Lou McDonald  So we are clear, it is not that all of this is frustrating for those living with Friedreich's ataxia; it is actually terrifying for them. I met Emily three or four weeks ago and I was speaking to her again on Tuesday. Even in that short time span, she told me that her swallow and speech had disimproved. We are on the clock here. Time is of the essence. Of course the science is important. We have to lead with clinicians and science, but it has been two years since this was cleared by the European Commission. This therefore is a process not so much guided by science as stalled and delayed by bureaucracy and indecision. I am appealing to the T\u00e1naiste. I never take Leaders' Questions on a Thursday. I never have. I am standing before him for one sole reason. I am terrified for these people. I do not think it is acceptable that we would rise for our summer recess and leave terrified people. In Emily's case she is 28. In another case, Ois\u00edn is 27. Paudie is 16. They are terrified. They want their clinicians to have access to this drug.  It can levitate their deterioration in some cases by as much as 50%. I am appealing to the T\u00e1naiste. I am actually begging him to intervene and to do it now. I ask him not to stall or not to delay because these young people, others and their families are now relying on you, Simon Harris, to do the right thing. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Deputies","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputies  Hear, hear. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  It is always good to see the Deputy on a Thursday. I take the fact that she is here as a sign of her seriousness on this issue. I mean that genuinely. I thank her for that. I also take the seriousness of the issue. There is no disagreeing. We can use different words to describe this situation but there is no disagreement that it is a very worrying and stressful time for these families. That is a statement of fact. It is also a statement of fact that the process - and the Deputy knows it very well - is clear in law as how this goes. It is not a question of the Government stalling, or me, anybody over here or over there stalling. The process is very clear. The HSE drugs group looks at this. If the HSE drugs group feels it can benefit from the expertise of people in rare diseases - the people who treat the very patients the referenced - they bring in those experts and the patient voices in a short time of four weeks and they get the best available evidence in terms of the effectiveness of the drug. That is an appropriate thing to do. The Deputy referenced summer recess. I do not want anyone at home to think that there is any effect, with the D\u00e1il not being in session. This is a HSE drugs group led by clinicians.  I wish to make a broader point because we----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mary Lou McDonald  Will the T\u00e1naiste intervene? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I will make sure the process is carried in the expeditious timeline that has been set out in terms of that----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mary Lou McDonald  When they will know? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  It has said it will do that within four weeks. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  Deputy McDonald, allow the T\u00e1naiste to answer. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I wish to make one point because I am conscious that we are on the clock. The Deputy made another point around delays and bureaucracy. I have to make the point back that sometimes those delays are not on the side of the State. We need to have full root and branch review of how medicines are assessed in this country. My colleague, the Minister, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, is entirely committed to that. Even in the House today, debating when the application came in or when the full business came in, there has to be a better way and more efficient way of assessing drugs applications more generally. We can return to that. On this----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mary Lou McDonald  In the meantime, these people are deteriorating in real time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  Allow the T\u00e1naiste to conclude. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  -----specific issue, the rare diseases group, which is made up of not politicians----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mary Lou McDonald  I know what it is made up of. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  -----and not of bureaucrats but of doctors who treat these patients. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mary Lou McDonald  I am aware of that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  As am I. The group and the patient representatives will meet through this structure to assess this drug. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Thomas Gould  Are the doctors in Germany, England and France all different then? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  I call Deputy O'Callaghan. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Thomas Gould  Are the all doctors----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  Deputy Gould, Deputy O'Callaghan is next. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cian O'Callaghan  Now we know, the Government's report into Aughinish Alumina will be a classic fudge. On the one hand it will say, it cannot rule out the possibility that Irish alumina is ending up in the Russian military supply chain. On the other hand, it will fall short of making any concrete conclusions. This is despite that exports of alumina to Russia have more than doubled since the war broke out. The T\u00e1naiste does not need a report to figure out that alumina from Auginish is ending up in Russian patents. Irish alumina exports to Russia rose from under 400,000 tonnes in 2020 to over 800,000 tonnes in 2024. The latest figures published today showed that these exports are continuing to soar. We know from the investigation carried out by The Irish Times and the organised crime and corruption reporting project that alumina from Ireland is ending up in Russian owned smelters in Krasnoyarsk. Krasnoyarsk is Russia's only smelter producing high purity aluminium. This high purity aluminium is essential for the production of fighter jets and missiles. Krasnoyarsk is a major supplier to the Russian arms industry.  Exports of alumina to Russia has skyrocketed since the invasion of Ukraine. We know it is being sent to a smelter that supplies the Russian war machine. The Government should not be waiting for a report to lay out what has been staring it in the face for years. Alumina from Ireland is being used to make Russian weapons.  The Government's inaction is putting jobs at risk. These are highly skilled jobs with union representation and apprenticeship programmes. They are of fundamental importance to the local economy and community. They should never have been left exposed in this way. The T\u00e1naiste's Government had the power to step in years ago to ban the sale of alumina to Russia and help the plant to find alternative markets. This would have been much easier to do in 2022 when exports to Russia were much lower. We saw this happen in Australia as soon as Ukraine was invaded. Alternative markets were found. Exports stayed stable and are now forecast to grow. They acted decisively to protect their industry and jobs. In contrast, this Government's inaction and indecision has led to this crisis and existential threat to jobs.  Hiding behind the unpublished report is not good enough. There is huge concern in the region about jobs. Will the report be published? When will there be engagement with workers at the plant? Given that the Government has ruled out nationalisation, what measures are being considered to protect jobs? Is the Government seeking EU help in sourcing alterative markets for alumina that is currently being exported to Russia? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I thank the Deputy very much. The most important thing - and we should never lose sight of this in any discussion in relation to Ukraine or Russia - is Ireland's absolute clear position in relation to this. Ireland absolutely, fully and resolutely supports Ukraine and the people of Ukraine. We had President Volodymyr Zelenskyy here on the first day of our Presidency of the Council of the European Union to highlight that level of support and solidarity. We deplore the actions of Russia. This is a country that has enthusiastically supported all sanction measures that have come from the European Commission. We are a country that wants to see more sanctions against Russia. We will work at a European level, and indeed, we will lead that work now as President of the Council of the European Union to pursue that agenda.  It is also important to be clear, as the Deputy knows, that sanctions are a matter decided on collectively an EU level. The Deputy referenced Australia. Australia obviously is not in the European Union. If the Deputy's position is that Ireland would now decide at a national level in relation to a sanctions regime, that would tear up every rulebook that we have followed in relation to how at a European level we have worked with solidarity regarding Ukraine. It has always been the situation that we worked at an EU level. That has had a positive effect. The EU has already adopted 20 packages of sanctions since the start of Russia's brutal illegal full-scale invasion. Discussions are now at a very advanced stage on the 21st package of sanctions aimed to deprive Russia of money, goods and technology used to wage its illegal aggression and restrictions on the shadow fleet, payment channels and individuals and entities supporting Russia are intended to close loopholes and tighten enforcement. As I said, we are leading those proposals during our Presidency.  Regarding Aughinish Alumina, what we need to do here is follow the evidence. We need to follow the facts. I have been consistently clear and used the phrase that this country will never cherry-pick when it comes to sanctions. We support sanctions packages that come from the Commission. The Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment is undertaking an investigation to establish the facts. It is important to await the conclusion of that investigation. It is analysing data. It has been in contact with the plant. It is trying to establish the veracity of information that is in the media about the supply chain for alumina from the company. It has received information from our Ukrainian counterparts, the Ukrainian Government and a number of member states that are involved. All of this will be examined. I expect that the investigation will be finalised very shortly. When the investigation is completed, we will discuss the results, and we will work in lockstep with the European Commission in providing any and all relevant information to it and our European colleagues, too. This work is ongoing. We take this extraordinarily seriously.  It was a very fair question in relation to workers and jobs. I appreciate the Deputy raising that. Of course, should we arrive at a position - and I cannot prejudge this at all - where the European Commission makes a recommendation in relation to sanctions, we will want to and need to have conversations about two things. The first is about workers. The second is about crucial supply chains of alumina to the European Union, which is of importance too. As I have consistently said, governments need to be able to do more than one thing. We are very clear that one cannot cherry-pick when it comes to sanctions. We have to follow the facts and evidence. Ultimately, it is for the European Commission to make a recommendation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cian O'Callaghan  The T\u00e1naiste must surely know that these exports are feeding Putin's war machine. Does he not think it is unusual that Ireland is one of the very few European countries where our exports to Russia have increased since Russia invaded Ukraine? That has been driven by the exports of alumina that have more than doubled. Where does the T\u00e1naiste honestly think that alumina is going? It is going into the smelter that is feeding the companies in Russia that are supplying the Russian military. The T\u00e1naiste knows that. He has slept walked into this crisis. He has had ample time to deal with it with more than four years. Has he done anything proactive at all over the past four years or in recent months or weeks to work with the company to find alternative markets for alumina to protect the jobs at the plant? Has he done anything proactive or is he just waiting while the facts are staring him in the face? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I am now bamboozled by the Deputy's position. I am trying to be constructive and engage but he wants to use political rhetoric. That is fine. On one hand, he is saying to go ahead and impose national sanctions on a company that he is accusing of funding the Russian war machine and fuelling in terms of Ukraine. On the other hand, he saying to sit down and have a chat with them. Let us take this step by step. The first step is to establish the facts and provide those facts to the European Commission. The second step is to see what the European Commission wishes to do because it is the European Commission that proposes sanctions. Ireland has never blocked. In fact, we enthusiastically support all sanctions proposals that come to the Commission and we currently trying to get the 21st sanctions package over the line.  Absolutely, if there are any implications, and we should not prejudge this, we should work at European and national levels to make sure we can support workers and make sure the supply chain of alumina, a significant amount of which is being supplied to the European market from the mid-west, can continue as well. There is a complexity to all of this. This is not straightforward. We cannot just read a newspaper headline, and say, \"That is grand. Slap a sanction on it\". That is now how European Union membership works. We have been asked by the Commission - and the Ukrainian Government has welcomed what we are doing - to provide the most up-to-date information. I expect that process to conclude very shortly and I am absolutely crystal clear, as is all of the Government, there can be no cherry picking - and there will not be - when it comes to Ireland supporting Ukraine and taking action against Russia. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ged Nash  The spectre of Michael Shine has hung over the town of Drogheda and the wider region for decades. Today is an important day for the hundreds of victims and survivors of this disgraced, convicted sex offender and former doctor. There is now a way forward through the recommendations of the scoping report published an hour ago. This is a day when we can say we are a step further along the road of truth and accountability and that we are a little closer to laying this ghost to rest.  Over 15 years ago, I made my very first contribution in the Dail on this issue. I chose my maiden speech in here to draw attention to the crimes of a man who abused hundreds, possibly thousands, of young men in my community. I made that contribution at a time when help and the hope that justice would ever be done was in very short supply. Over 15 years on and over 30 years since the courageous nurse and founder of Dignity4Patients, Bernadette Sullivan, put her neck on the line by reporting the mishandling of the first complaint against Shine, we now have a pledge to move towards a six phase commission of investigation, chaired by one person and to be run concurrently.  I wish to formally thank the Minister for Health, Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill, her staff, Lorcan Staines and Gemma McLoughlin Burke who developed the report, the expert involvement of Maeve Lewis and Phil Scraton, Adrienne Reilly and her team at Dignity4Patients, but most of all the men who never let go and fought day and night with real dignity to be heard. As the Minister of Health said in her press statement alongside the report, \"... their experiences have shaped the report and its recommendations ...\".  The overwhelming emotion this morning among the men is one of relief; relief that they are being listened to. They are so used to having doors slammed in their faces. A door to truth and recovery and real restorative justice is now being opened by the State through the Government.  In the words of Dignity4Patients:  ... [We are] very pleased that this has happened today. It is a historic moment in that ... finally there is something on the record going towards full vindication of all of the victims and survivors of convicted sex offender Michael Shine.  Many of these men, the victims and survivors, are friends of mine. They are people who I went to school with, played football with and hung around with. Deputy Joanna Byrne would be very familiar with many of them as would Deputy Butterly. I have said time and again that a spell in jail does not justice make. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ged Nash  A light must be shone into the environment that allowed a prolific paedophile to operate within our public health service, with impunity and unchallenged for over 30 years. Questions have to be asked of the former North Eastern Health Board, the order that ran the Lourdes hospital, the Garda, the Medical Council, the DPP and other agencies which knew very well what was going on. The dogs in the street in Drogheda knew what Shine was doing to young boys and men and that is why a statutory inquiry is of critical importance.  I have two questions. Will the men, the Dignity4Patients group, be involved centrally in having the terms of reference with the Attorney General agreed? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ged Nash  Will the T\u00e1naiste commit providing stable and predictable core funding to the Dignity4Patients group to ensure it can continue to support men through this process? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Conor Sheehan  Hear, hear. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  Let me say \"Yes\" and \"Yes\" to two very clear questions. Let me acknowledge the Deputy's own advocacy, leadership and involvement in this issue for a long number of years and that of other Deputies from the area, including the Ministers, Deputies Byrne and McEntee, Deputy Butterly and many people across the political divide trying to desperately get a hearing for people who were being ignored, obstructed and, as Deputy Nash said, were having doors slammed in their faces. This is the second time this week in this House we have talked about the actions of vile, despicable paedophiles who were allowed to prey on innocent children and young men in this country.  I read the scoping inquiry report and before I came in today, I read the comments of the victim's group, of the survivor's group. The most powerful thing they said was that they feel \"listened to\" after decades of being ignored. Being ignored does not capture how despicably cruelly they were treated in terms of this. In fact, it is not that long ago I remember people making the point, not in this House, that there was no need at all for an inquiry in relation to this. I am really pleased we have gotten to this point.  I join the Deputy in thanking my colleague, the Minister for Health, for publishing the report of the scoping exercise into former surgeon Michael Shine. I also thank her for the engagement she has had with the group. I have been a very strong believer that there was a need for some form of inquiry. Michael Shine is a convicted sexual abuser. He carried out vile, despicable acts against boys and young men. He was described by the Court of Appeal as a \"prolific sexual offender\". I remember when I was Taoiseach engaging on this with the Minister, Deputy McEntee, and others and we asked for options to be prepared as to how we could take an inquiry forward. I am really pleased the Minister, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, moved forward on this as well.  I want to praise Lorcan Staines, the senior counsel, who conducted the scoping exercise. Quite frankly, in my experience in this House and in government, getting that chair right matters a hell of a lot. We appointed the right person and Lorcan Staines has been exemplary in how he has carried out this work. He met almost 75 victims and survivors as part of the process and he noted that they were middle-aged to elderly men from all walks of life in Drogheda and the surrounding areas. I acknowledge their bravery. The courage of the individuals who came forward to share their lived experience with the facilitator during that process cannot be easy. He detailed how allegations of abuse reported to him involved a broad range of ages, including reports of abuse when victims were children, teenagers or young adults. Allegations are reported as having occurred at the hospital, in Shine's private practice in Fair Street and in Shine's home, with the earliest allegation said to have occurred in 1964 and the latest in 1990. Victims were of the view that Shine's conduct throughout this, as the Deputy said, was a matter of public knowledge.  Clearly, there is a need to investigate this fully and we now have a model and a way forward, thanks to the work of Lorcan Staines and to the bravery and courage of the men, the neighbours and the friends of the Deputy's, for all they have done to get us to this point. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ged Nash  I thank the T\u00e1naiste for his personal interest in this over the years and that of the Taoiseach as well. I acknowledge the work the Minister, Deputy McEntee, has done in representing her constituents over the years who have been affected by the actions of this despicable man, who was convicted a number of years ago of a number of criminal offences but, as I have repeatedly said, a spell in jail does not justice make. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  No. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ged Nash  We need to shine a light into the dark recesses of our society and into the agencies and organisations that allowed the actions of this prolific paedophile to continue unchallenged for over 30 years.  I was very moved when I read the report this morning and the initial passage where Lorcan Staines said that \"a further State response is required.\" That line is the line for which we have all been waiting for 30 years after a number of failed attempts and State-backed initiatives to address many of these issues. There is a novel way forward here that is being proposed. It is interesting and I hope it will work. I repeat that I want to see, as I know the T\u00e1naiste does, the victims, survivors and the Dignity4Patients group centrally involved in helping to craft the terms of reference, based on the truism that nothing should be done for and with victims without them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I thank Deputy Nash and agree with everything he says. I thank Dignity4Patients as well for the very structured and really constructive and helpful way it went about its engagement as well. The Deputy is right that Shine being sent to a prison cell, where he belongs, is justice in one part but it is nowhere near enough. We saw this again the other day in relation to Waterford. There is a case of who knew what, when and how could this abuse have been stopped. It went from 1964 to 1990, which is an extraordinarily long period of time.  I really think Lorcan Staines has done a very good job in trying to come up with what the Deputy correctly called a novel approach. Nobody wants a commission of investigation that goes on forever and ever. We want to try to get a structured way forward. I think what he is suggesting - I have not seen it before because it is novel - of six phases is a clever idea. Three of the phases should be independent document-based reviews, examining criminal complaints resulting in convictions, the response of the Medical Council and the circumstances in which Shine retired from the hospital. Phase 4 should be short and focused on current patient protection policies in Irish healthcare. Phase 5, really crucially, should be an independent truth and recovery process that should be victim-centered and non-adversarial and should run alongside that work.  Phase 6 should amount to a comprehensive investigation into the actions and events surrounding the abuse committed by Shine, followed by a report setting out, so far as the evidence permits, what was known, by whom and at what stage. It should examine the full extent to which relevant bodies receive complaints, information, warning signs, indications of risk, what actions they took, whether their actions were adequate and timely. He recommends that the publication of the Smith report be revisited only after full completion. We will now engage, as the Deputy suggests, and move forward. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Fitzmaurice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Fitzmaurice.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Michael-Fitzmaurice.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice  A few weeks ago, I brought to the attention of the Minister of State, Deputy Harkin, a problem regarding apprenticeships. In fairness, she rang me last Sunday evening. Over the past few weeks, she has resolved this issue, which had given rise to problems for many apprentices. I thank her for resolving it. It is good that mother who never previously engaged with politicians was able to ring me and say that she was grateful that someone had picked up the phone, talked to her and resolved the matter.  I hope the T\u00e1naiste will listen to what I have to say about another issue. In the eighties, when many people had to leave Ireland because there was no work for them as a result of the recession, old yellow school buses used to go around the country picking up people. They picked up students and brought them to national schools and secondary schools. Those buses were owned by the State. Ireland had, on average, a population of 3.5 million during the eighties. At that time, we were transporting between 135,000 and 140,000 children to school. There is a saying down the country about a pot that is used to describe situations where people do not have a lot of money. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  What was the saying? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Fitzmaurice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Fitzmaurice.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Michael-Fitzmaurice.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice  Basically, there was no Exchequer money at that time but we were still able to keep the bus service going. Unfortunately, there have been reviews, public consultations and various documents since then. I have spoken to Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan, about this matter - I want to make it very clear that I am not directing any blame at him - but, despite everything, it is the same old story every year. People apply in February for bus tickets for kids who might have been attending a school for two years already - and this is on a discretionary basis - and are informed that will be no tickets for them for their third year in that school. There are 15 or 16 schools in my area. In January or February, parents in Williamstown, County Galway, compiled a list of all the children in the area who need access to a school bus. I handed that list to the Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan, and he sent it on to the relevant Department. You can go from Boyle to Taghmaconnell in Roscommon, right through Fuerty, Athleague and other areas all the way into Galway and you will encounter the same problem.  We can give out about what is happening, but we need to solve it. Will somebody please contact the civil servants in the section of the Department of education that deals with Bus \u00c9ireann about this matter? The same thing happens every year. We have gone from a stage where we had State-owned buses to one where there are a lot of public buses now. I accept that there are more children involved, namely 175,000 or 180,000, but the T\u00e1naiste should look at the figures I have provided. The population in the eighties was 3.5 million; it has increased by two thirds to 5.5 million. However, the number of children who need to access school transport has only increased by 30,000.  The end of August is not that far away. Parents have to keep working. Their kids will not have bus tickets. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  Thank you, Deputy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Fitzmaurice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Fitzmaurice.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Michael-Fitzmaurice.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice  Over the summer, will the T\u00e1naiste crack the whip in order to get someone to try to resolve this matter once and for all, please? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I thank Deputy Fitzmaurice for his kind words in respect of Minister of State, Deputy Harkin, particularly in the context of her working on a Sunday evening and getting back to people. It is good to hear that there has been progress on that apprenticeship issue.  I thank the Deputy for raising this important issue. Let us be honest, the issue of school bus tickets and places is a perennial one. There have been lots of efforts by successive Governments, Oireachtais and Ministers to try to make progress on this. Some progress has been made, but, clearly, it is a system that is still in need of further reform and improvement and in the context of which a degree of common sense is sometimes needed.  There number of children who have been supported by means of the school transport scheme, as Deputy Fitzmaurice knows and has alluded to, has grown significantly in recent years. Since 2018, the number increased from 120,000 in 2018 to more than 181,000 now. Included in that figure are 24,000 pupils with special educational needs. I am very happy that is the case, but sometimes there is an additional complexity around staffing, the size of the buses, etc, in that regard. From a funding point of view, the scale of the scheme has more than doubled. There was a budget of about \u20ac200 million in 2018. We are now spending \u20ac537 million on it. There are 181,000 people transported to school daily, more than 8,600 vehicles are used and there are around 11,100 routes involved. I make that point to show that the scale of the operation is significant. There are more than 10,000 routes and thousands of buses involved and the number of students using the services is not a million miles away from 200,000.  The current terms of the scheme are going to continue to apply for the 2026-27 school year. Under those terms, primary school children are eligible for the service if they live 3.2 km or more from their nearest national school and post-primary students are eligible if they live 4.8 km from their nearest school. The Department's priority is to provide transport for all those students who are eligible for the scheme. Children who are not eligible under those criteria but who have completed the application process on time sometimes get seats as they become available. That happens after eligible children have been assessed. That is my understanding of how this quite complicated system works.  There is a broader need here. We have published the way forward in terms of a broader reform of the system. I take the point in that regard, but the priority for this school year has to be to get tickets out as quickly as possible. Bus \u00c9ireann has begun to issue tickets for the school transport service for the upcoming school year. That process will continue throughout the summer as routes are finalised. Where a family has a specific query about their child's eligibility status, they should contact the school transport section. I will speak to the Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan, on foot of the Deputy raising this matter today, and ask that he continues to engage with the Deputy and, I am sure, other Members right across the House. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Fitzmaurice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Fitzmaurice.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Michael-Fitzmaurice.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice  I thank the T\u00e1naiste for that. The number was 120,000 in 2018. Think back, however, and you will see that it was 135,000 or 140,000 in the eighties. That was the base figure at a time when Ireland was awash with money.  To be blunt, parents who are engaging on this matter would say that they would be as well trying to talk to someone in the White House as they would be trying to talk to someone in Bus \u00c9ireann or in the depots. There is a problem. Today, the D\u00e1il will rise. Children will be returning to school on 26, 27 or 28 August. As the T\u00e1naiste knows, many parents are working. We keep talking about public transport. As I always say, if you are involved in hurling or football and you get children in when they are young, they should become pretty good at it. The position is the same when it comes to public transport. If you can supply public transport, people will get used to it and will tend to use it. In the coming weeks, will the Government try to resolve these issues in order to alleviate parents' nightmares and uncertainty? One thing should be borne in mind. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  The Deputy should conclude. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Fitzmaurice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Fitzmaurice.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Michael-Fitzmaurice.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice  An awful lot of the children I am talking about have had concessionary tickets for the past two years. When the contracts are being drawn up, I just do not know why they to not reference 23- , 33- or 50-seaters. If this is done and if the population increases, all involved would under the procurement rules, be able to adapt. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I knew the Deputy would have to mention the GAA, especially with Galway and Limerick playing at the weekend. I wish everybody involved the best of luck.  We are very committed to the school transport scheme. If the Deputy wants to see our commitment, he should look to our budget. The fact that we have more than doubled the amount spent on school transport between 2018 and now is a sign of real commitment. That said, I know the Deputy is a very practical and common-sense person in how he approaches these issues in looking for solutions, when you are spending such a large amount of money, there is an onus on you to consider whether the system is working well. I could not put my hand on my heart and fail to suggest that there are improvements that could and that need to be made. The Government is fully committed to making those improvements.  Our first job was to try to stabilise the situation, being frank. Some good changes have been made. I thank Minister of State, Deputy Canney, for his work in respect of the issue relating to drivers over 70 years of age. I hope that we can see if this can be expanded further, but it was an ageist provision.  I take the point the Deputy made about the D\u00e1il going into summer recess but obviously he will not be going away nor will we in the sense that we will all be working on these issues in our constituencies and keeping in close contact with them. Let us try to get through this September and then to build on the report that was published in terms of what the school transport needs to look like into the future, and I am happy to continue to work with Deputy on that. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna \u00f3 Cheannair\u00ed - Leaders' Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_33","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna \u00f3 na Comhalta\u00ed Eile - Other Members\u2019 Questions","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_33","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Carol Nolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Carol Nolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Carol Nolan  The schools are out, summer is well and truly upon us, and for most families this will be an opportunity to enjoy spending time with their children or grandchildren. Others will watch the kids being able to spend more time with their friends.  For some families, however, this summer will be a continuous nightmare, and it will be spent trying to keep their teenage children from ending their own lives before they can access vital services. One of those families is in my constituency of Offaly. It involves a teenage girl who has been diagnosed with autism, ADHD, PTSD, depression and bipolar disorder. This young girl is self-harming, and her situation is now unfortunately at crisis level. Despite this, her mother - who is utterly heartbroken and distressed as we can all imagine - is fiercely protective of her child and determined to protect her at all costs. However, she has been informed by the Offaly child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS, that her child will be waiting until at least the end of September or early October when she \"could be offered an appointment\". Offaly CAMHS has been told a number of times by this mother about the situation. I saw a copy of the letter and to say I was appalled is an understatement. I am appalled at the lack of urgency and empathy in this situation.  This girl cannot enjoy the sun or the holidays and her mother watches her continuously, utterly helpless as she is effectively abandoned by the State services that her daughter may not live to access. It is a form of cruelty beyond all description to force families to endure circumstances such as these. Many of us in this House are parents. What would we not do to help our teenage children?  What is happening in Offaly is not an isolated case. I know there are cases around the country as well. I have previously established that the midlands CAMHS area has the second highest waiting list in the State, with 1,006 children waiting for mental health treatment. The Government can speak about investment but until those funds translate into fully staffed multidisciplinary teams, families in Offaly will continue to experience a service that is overwhelmed, inaccessible and life-threateningly inadequate. As I said, I am appalled by the response of Offaly CAMHS in relation to this situation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  Go raibh maith agat, Teachta Nolan, for raising this important issue. I can see her genuine concern for the family that she is advocating for while also highlighting a broader issue. I also acknowledge her concern in relation to the response that family received from CAMHS. I want to address the broader issue but I suggest she provide that information to the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, and I know she will do so. I will ask that the Minister of State engages with the HSE specifically in relation to that situation.  The Government is committed to this area. Nobody wants to hear of anyone experiencing the story the Deputy told in terms of a teenage girl with multiple diagnoses self-harming and in a difficult situation. I take the point that this does not help with the case the Deputy referenced but we are investing a lot in CAMHS and our mental health services. As of February of this year, we have seen around 72% of new or re-referred cases seen within 12 weeks. That is an increase of 6% over the same period last year. I am not saying there is not a lot more to do, as there is, but the number of young people being seen in a more efficient manner by CAMHS is thankfully increasing.  They reckon there are only around 2% of children and young people in the country who should require the support of CAMHS and 97% of urgent referrals are responded to within three days. That is an important point too. It may well not be the experience of what the Deputy said but that is the information I have available.  I do not think this case has been brought to the attention of the Minister of State, Deputy Butler. It sounds as if it is particularly complex, and I do not say that in any way to pass the buck, but sometimes there can be clinical complexities. However, I ask the Deputy to link with the Minister of State, who is a compassionate and hard-working Minister of State as well.  Specifically, in relation to the CAMHS team in Offaly, there is a clinical whole-time equivalent of 8.6 on the team. It is a little bit below the national average of 8.9, so let us see what can be done in relation to that. I am told, however, that 100% of urgent referrals in Offaly are responded to within three working days. The team does have the second-highest open caseload in the region. I am told that is evidence of the complexities of the challenges. In other words, when CAMHS sees a young person, the file often remains open for a long period of time because of that ongoing need for care as well, and there are 96 children waiting for their first appointment with that team.  Will Deputy Nolan link with the Minister of State, Deputy Butler? I will speak to her today about it, and I know that she will highlight this specific issue with the HSE. On the broader issue, we will continue to resource CAMHS. We will spend over \u20ac190 million on it this year, which is an increase of 40% since 2022, but I accept that there is a lot more to do in this area. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Carol Nolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Carol Nolan  I thank the T\u00e1naiste for his response and assistance. I directly informed the HSE about this situation, and I received an acknowledgement, but I will reach out to the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, and, with the consent of the parent, will pass on all details.  My concern is that this is an emergency situation, and it was not treated as such in Offaly CAMHS. For any parent to be told that they may, or they could, get an appointment at the end of September-early October when their child is clearly in distress is not an emergency response, and it has not been treated as an urgent case.  The T\u00e1naiste made the point that the staffing levels are not up at the national average of 8.9 but I ask that Offaly is prioritised in the upcoming budget in terms of staffing in Offaly CAMHS because I am sure we are going to have more cases like this if we do not act in time and are not proactive. I appreciate the T\u00e1naiste's constructive response and his empathy in relation to this situation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  We are seeing more real complexity when it comes to our younger people and more and more of them with more than one clinical diagnosis. I am certainly no doctor or expert but from my engagement with many young people and parents this provides a real challenge, and it is one that needs to be met, in terms of how we meet the multiple needs across the multiple diagnoses. I do not know what happened in this situation, and I do not want to comment without knowing all of the details, although I take the Deputy at her word. However, it is clear that the system needs to know the difference between urgent and non-urgent referrals. According to the statistics, which were given to me, and I read out, urgent referrals are responded to within three days. However, what is classified as an urgent referral is an interesting question.  The Minister of State, Deputy Butler, will work with the Deputy in relation to this complex individual case. More broadly, in the run-up to the budget on 6 October, the Government will work closely with the Minister, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, and the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, on the issue of the resourcing CAMHS. I will ask them to take a look at the point the Deputy made in relation to Offaly, and come back to her directly. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna \u00f3 na Comhalta\u00ed Eile - Other Members\u2019 Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_34","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Pholasa\u00ed n\u00f3 ar Reachta\u00edocht - Questions on Policy or Legislation","counts":{"speechCount":68,"speakerCount":22},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_34","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marie Sherlock","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Stanley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ryan O'Meara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ryan-O'Meara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ryan-O'Meara.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sorca Clarke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sorca-Clarke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Sorca-Clarke.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paula Butterly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paula-Butterly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paula-Butterly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Carol Nolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig O'Sullivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-O'Sullivan.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-O'Sullivan.D.2019-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mary Lou McDonald  The Children\u2019s Health Ireland, CHI, report on e-scooter related injuries for children is shocking. It reported that between January 2021 and August 2025, there were 1,130 attendances at CHI emergency departments due to e-scooter related injuries, and that over the past 12 months, there has been a 50% increase in the number of children and young people being admitted for traumatic brain injuries. We know that many have been injured and some killed, due to scramblers. Earlier this week, we had Grace Lynch's parents in the Oireachtas. We recalled her horrific death. I also raised the horrific injuries suffered by a young boy, Jayden Deans, as a result of scramblers.  We know that both scramblers and e-scooters are being used by gangs to distribute drugs, to openly and actively intimidate, and to evade the garda\u00ed and, yet, we heard the Garda Commissioner say that there would be no chance of pursuit training until next year because of the EU Presidency.  I found that really shocking. We have laws that are not enforced. We have communities left to their own devices. We have a situation that is literally out of control. The question in relation to e-scooters and scramblers is what is going to happen. We have laws that are not being enforced. We have garda\u00ed who will not actively pursue. Then, in the case of e-scooters, we literally have the wild west. It is putting people, particularly young people, in danger. Communities are actively intimidated, terrorised, injured and far worse. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I thank the Deputy. I have a big, long note here, which I have no intention of reading out because I think this issue is at a really critical stage. I met Grace Lynch's parents, two incredible people who are really trying to make society safer after the loss of their daughter, Grace.  On the e-scooter issue, from memory, I heard somebody say it was the number one reason that children were now ending up in ICU. It is quite an incredible thing to say: the number one reason children end up in ICU in Ireland is because of e-scooter accidents. I have heard a lot of comments in recent days. Do we ban them? Do we very quickly move to put in place a more robust regulatory system because there is not one in place today? I have an open mind. This is now at a tipping point where we need to move, and move quickly. Certain members of the Government, including the Taoiseach and I, are meeting on this early next week. I would like to see a swift set of proposals come from the Government on this. I am happy to keep the Deputy updated on that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  In the past year, the number of children admitted to Temple Street with brain injuries from accidents on e-scooters has increased by 50%. I think we have agreement across the House that this is an ever-worsening public health crisis at this point. It is clear that the ban on under-16s using e-scooters has been a monumental failure. We need a new approach. As the T\u00e1naiste has just said, instead of a ban, we need regulation that is workable and enforceable. We have some proposals today that the T\u00e1naiste might consider ahead of his meeting next week. It is crucial that we have a mandatory vehicle registration system where we register not only every e-scooter, but every rider. We also need to ban the sale or supply of e-scooters to children or young people under the age of 16. Crucially, garda\u00ed must be given the resources and the appropriate training to be able to pursue and enforce what is current legislation.  The fourth piece, the bike-to-work scheme, has been an incredible success. What we know is that a significant portion of the parents who have bought these e-scooters for children and young people did not know they were doing anything wrong. Instead of a ban, what I am asking is that the Government consider a scheme that will allow parents and children to hand back these e-scooters and be given a bike in return. It is a healthy alternative. It is not punitive, and it gives the Government something of an opportunity to show that we are taking this seriously, alongside the regulation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  What a constructive contribution. This is the sort of thinking we need. I thank the Deputy for that. I do not 100% know what the right thing to do here is, but what I 100% know is that the current situation is extraordinarily dangerous and needs to change. I do not say this to blame parents, but there is an issue here. It may be awareness, as the Deputy says, but there is a real issue here. Kids are not saving up their small sums of pocket money, going into toy stores and buying these scooters. Parents are buying these scooters for their children, perhaps out of ignorance, perhaps out of whatever else, but we need to look at that issue. I am not saying that to blame anybody, but it is a fact. What happens at the point of purchase definitely has a role.  I am somewhat sympathetic to rank and file garda\u00ed, who are asked by this House to enforce laws that are often very challenging for them to enforce in terms of their own safety. We have all seen tragic situations where garda\u00ed in the line of duty put themselves at risk in roads policing, and there have been fatalities as well. With scramblers and e-scooters, is there a way of helping with technology or registration systems?  The Deputy has made very good, constructive suggestions, and I thank him for those. If he is happy to send them to me, I would be happy to put them into the mix. This is something where, if we are unified as a House in saying the current system is wrong and not sustainable, and that we are going to take swift action, I really hope we can move on together very quickly. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marie Sherlock","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Marie Sherlock  I too must raise the report from Children's Health Ireland, CHI, today. There are one to two e-scooter-related incidents presenting to emergency departments every single day, with a 50% increase in traumatic brain injuries over the past 12 months. As we rise today, I have to ask how in all conscience we can walk away from here, knowing that every day for the next eight weeks, a child is going to be injured due to an e-scooter. I listened to the Garda Commissioner yesterday calling for a full ban, and the Taoiseach said something similar during the week. I believe that is a cop-out. The reality is that e-scooters are a legitimate form of transport for many people out there, but they are also used as a form of intimidation, particularly in the communities that I represent in Dublin Central.  We know that enforcement is the issue, but I am fed up because I do not think there is a sense of urgency. I hear what the T\u00e1naiste is saying today, and I welcome that meeting next week. However, I stood here for a Topical Issue last week when the Minister for justice effectively said that there were powers and they just needed to be enforced. That is not good enough. The reality from a public health perspective - I do not say this lightly - is that we need to impose a temporary ban on e-scooter use over the next six weeks to give the Minister for justice, the Minister for Transport and An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na the time to get their act together so we have the special pursuit, so we have the registration, so we have the ban and so we have the right policy in place.  Will the Government rule out a permanent ban on e-scooters? Will it introduce a temporary ban to give time to make sure we can get our act together and take seriously what is a public health crisis in this country? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  There is certainly an urgency across this House. I do not say this to be provocative on an issue where I hope we can all work together, but nobody on any side of the House has brought forward legislation to try to make progress. We have had multiple Private Members\u2019 measures, but let us all work on this together. It is not a question of nobody being urgent, and I am going to push back very firmly on that. We are all alarmed at this. We have all heard the doctors in Temple Street. We all want to take action on this. While this House might be in recess next week, I will be at a meeting about what we can try to do in relation to this issue. I do not think anybody meant a ban as a cop-out - I genuinely do not. I think people are so horrified by what is happening that everyone is trying to grapple with what the right thing to do is.  There is also a legitimacy to the point the Deputy made about how it is a legitimate form of transport for some people. We see this working in other European countries. We see it in our nearest neighbours. I do not want to get the regime wrong, but I think they have registration at the point of purchase that allows people to track this. There are things that can be done that can perhaps achieve the same aim. The aim is to stop children ending up in ICU and to improve our road safety. I am very happy to work on a cross-party basis and with relevant Ministers.  I am not sure. I say this only to be helpful because I do not know the truth, but I know that we live in the European Union. I am not even sure of the legality of a ban. The honest answer is that I am not sure, but I am absolutely certain that the current situation cannot continue.  I am happy to keep in touch, even over the summer months. If the Deputy wishes to correspond with me, I am happy to come back to her. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Stanley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Brian Stanley  We are going through an epidemic of domestic abuse and violence. In 2025, the Garda had over 67,000 calls in relation to domestic abuse. Seven women were murdered last year, and in many of those cases, it was by a family member, a partner or somebody known closely to the victim. This year, in the first six months, matters have got even worse. Eight women have been murdered to date. Two were killed within a few short days of each other just over a week ago: Jamey Carney in Kerry and Adina Constantin in Portlaoise, who was killed literally on the same street as my office.  The absence of a domestic abuse refuge in nine counties, including Laois, is a problem. The T\u00e1naiste will recall me raising this a number of times in the House over the years. The Laois domestic abuse services have been raising the importance of this issue. Having a safe place for victims to go, including when children have to flee the family home, is essential. Victims in Laois often have to leave the county to seek refuge, and they are away from all services and family supports. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  The Deputy should conclude. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Stanley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Brian Stanley  I will finish on this point. The council bought a site nearly three years ago for an eight-unit refuge. There was a lack of progress, but an approved housing body, AHB, Tuath Housing, has been secured to put that in place. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  The Deputy should conclude. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Stanley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Brian Stanley  I ask the Minister for justice, the wider Government and Cuan to treat this with a sense of urgency, allocate the capital assistance scheme, CAS, money for it and get the scheme up and running as quickly as possible. I think the T\u00e1naiste will agree it is an important issue. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I very much do. I thank Deputy Stanley for raising this issue. Domestic, sexual and gender-based violence is an epidemic in Irish society. In fact, there are certain people in certain positions of power and influence in certain parts of the world who are trying to make sure we talk about these issues less. There has been an effort at times to shut down debate on these issues, and to use phrases like \u201cwoke\u201d and the like. Domestic, sexual and gender-based violence is something that needs the full attention and focus of all of us who hold positions of influence.  We have major issues in relation to young men and how they are getting sex education and being introduced to people who put themselves forward as role models who are despicable, vile, disgusting individuals, some prominently known and some less prominently known, all having a corrosive effect on our society. We have a huge amount of work to do and men cannot recuse themselves from this conversation. Men need to show leadership in this conversation, too.  On the issue of the roll-out of refuges, the Deputy is entirely right. Cuan, a statutory agency, has been set up and the Minister for justice is working closely with it. I will specifically ask him to determine what can be done on the project in Laois that the Deputy has mentioned to see if we can take that forward. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Lawless  I want to raise the case of a children's online safety company whose management is accused of defrauding at least 15 victims, across seven different countries, of more than \u20ac500,000. This is an Irish company and is based in Limerick. My constituent Aisling Waldron, a dedicated advocate of child safety, was hired to oversee child safety. She is owed over \u20ac72,000 in unpaid wages. She was recruited on the back of fabricated user numbers and, indeed, fabricated and falsified contracts from the Vatican Bank and the Portuguese Government. Most seriously, the company was allowed to use the emblem of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. That endorsement gave the company credibility and that credibility helped to defraud the victims. A number of complaints have been made to the Garda National Economic Crime Bureau, the Corporate Enforcement Authority, Fiosr\u00fa and the Department of justice. Will the Government investigate this? I appreciate that the T\u00e1naiste may not know all the details, but it is a major issue that my constituent Aisling Waldron has been fighting, often alone. I ask the Government to investigate why the Garda logo was allowed to be used. The company is widely reported on in mainstream media as Cybersmarties Limited. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  The House rules may somewhat preclude me from over-commenting in relation to matters that may be before An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na and a number of other issues as well. I appreciate the Deputy's bona fides and the reasons he raised this matter, but the organisation that carries out investigations in relation to alleged crime in this country is An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. From what the Deputy has told me, it sounds like there is a Garda investigation under way, and I do not think I can comment further in the interests of that investigation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ryan O'Meara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ryan-O'Meara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ryan-O'Meara.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ryan O'Meara  I want to read an excerpt from an email I got today in relation to Skyclarys for people with Friedreich's ataxia:  At 19 years old, I should be excited about my future. I should be looking forward to building a career, travelling, making memories with friends and planning the life I want to live. Instead, I wake up every day wondering what ability I will lose next. My future is overshadowed by fear, knowing that my condition will continue to deteriorate while a treatment exists that could slow the decline.  The Friedreich's ataxia community in Ireland has been fighting for reimbursement of Skyclarys for a long time. We have shared our stories, met with politicians, engaged with decision makers and done everything asked of us.  The postponement of a decision this week while expert opinion was requested by the committee was incredibly disappointing. I do not know, after hundreds and hundreds of days of people waiting for a medication that they desperately need, how a committee that is paid to do a job still has not made a decision. If expert advice was needed before now, why was it not sought before now?  In a country where we are so educated and have so much money, and in the EU, where other countries are already reimbursing for this drug, why does it take so long, and why do we have such an inhumane system for the reimbursement of these drugs in this country? That is what it is when you stand face to face with people and families experiencing this. What is the Government going to do to speed up the process and help the people who need help the most? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I thank Deputy O'Meara very much for that contribution and also for reading out that correspondence from his constituent. There are two points to be made. First, there needs to be a broader review of how the drugs process works. I say that without any comment on the specific drug. My colleague the Minister for Health is fully committed to that and has work under way in that regard.  Second, on the specific drug, I actually think the actions being taken are being taken to ensure that the full opportunity is given to examine the effectiveness of the medicine by hearing directly from the clinicians in Ireland who treat the patients, and also hearing from the lived experience and the patient voice. I am pleased that they have put a timeline of four weeks, or a month, on that. I really hope that process can be used robustly and thoroughly to scrutinise the effectiveness of the drug. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy William Aird  Middle-income working families continue to shoulder the greatest burden of rising living costs. Many are earning too much to qualify for targeted supports and they are finding it increasingly difficult to meet the costs of childcare and housing, and also to meet everyday expenses. At the same time, wage increases intended to keep pace with inflation are pushing more workers into the higher rate of income tax.  As the Government prepares for budget 2027, I am asking the T\u00e1naiste to prioritise middle-income families through adjustments to the standard rate tax band and tax credits, together with targeted supports to help with childcare and housing costs. Will he set out the principles that will guide decisions to ensure work continues to pay and that middle-income families receive meaningful support? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I thank Deputy Aird very much. I agree with him that there are many good means-tested supports in place in this country. That is important. There are people who find that they do everything right and play by the rules but do not qualify for any of them. They ask us to hang on a second and ask whether they can have a little bit of assistance and keep some of their own money, and whether work can actually pay in this country. There are far too many people who get up very early - earlier by the day - and find themselves at the end of the month just about getting by, let alone getting ahead. Therefore, a priority for the budget will be to see how we can help those people, namely, the squeezed middle or middle Ireland \u2013 call them what you will \u2013 or people who are working hard and want to get by in life.  We will make decisions as a Government on the overall package, but there will be a personal income tax package. The summer economic statement next week will set out the parameters in terms of how much the tax package and spending package will be. That will give us an opportunity to scrutinise how best to use them.  I am of the view, and the Government has shown this on a number of occasions, that the tax band is a helpful mechanism. As people's incomes rise, as they are doing, thankfully, or as people do a bit of overtime, get a promotion or work a few more hours, the tax man should not be taking a greater percentage of their money at such an entry point. We are below where other countries are, so I am sympathetic to that argument. On the issue of childcare, we have to fulfil the programme for Government commitment of getting to \u20ac200 per month per child over the next four years. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sorca Clarke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sorca-Clarke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Sorca-Clarke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sorca Clarke  Online platforms that promote and facilitate suicide need to be stopped. I commend the team of The Journal  Investigates for its work in exposing these sinister forums, which are banned in other jurisdictions but accessible here. They prey on vulnerable people and they encourage them into irreversible decisions. The problem is not a lack of legal or regulatory powers. We have the Digital Services Act, the Online Safety and Media Regulation Act, and the Criminal Law (Suicide) Act. What is missing here is co-ordinated enforcement and urgency.  Will the T\u00e1naiste outline what immediate action the Government will take alongside Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n, An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na and the Internet service providers to block access to these sites? It is the Government's responsibility to ensure that every State body with a role is acting with urgency. Passing responsibility from one organisation to another is simply not acceptable in this regard. These delays are having real consequences. People have lost their lives after engaging with these forums. I implore the T\u00e1naiste to intervene in this regard. The forums should not be accessible in this State, as they are not accessible in others. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  The Deputy is right. They should not. I thank the Deputy for raising this. I truthfully do not know enough about the issue, other than that what the Deputy said is quite concerning. On foot of her raising this, I will talk to the Minister for media and Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n and determine what co-ordinated action can be taken. We will come back to the Deputy on this issue. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sorca Clarke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sorca-Clarke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Sorca-Clarke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sorca Clarke  And the Departments of justice and health. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I will work out who needs to be spoken to and come back to the Deputy. It is an important issue. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Keira Keogh  I am a grown woman and I would be really embarrassed if I had to ask the T\u00e1naiste, as my superior, for a tampon. Luckily, here in Leinster House they are freely available in some of the bathrooms, although not all. Although I do not have to ask, many teenage girls must go to their teacher and ask for a tampon or period product, if they are lucky enough that their school supplies period products. In some cases, they are resorting to using newspaper or toilet roll. It is hard enough to concentrate in school without bleeding, bloating or cramping, never mind worrying about leaking. Unfortunately, this is still the case for some teenage girls across the country.  On average, a woman uses 15 to 30 tampons or period products per week, at a cost of \u20ac3 to \u20ac5 per box. It is an average of \u20ac100 per year, which is around the cost of junior GAA membership.  I welcome improvements in some public places. We now have period products in libraries and hospitals.  I know there are two programme for Government commitments under education and health. There is a plan for all DEIS plus schools to have it by 2026 and for all schools to have it by 2027. Can we please put in that they would not have to ask a superior for a period product? They must just be freely available in bathrooms. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I thank the Deputy for raising this issue. She is right about the availability and accessibility, and not having to ask somebody else, particularly somebody who is perhaps in a position of authority, to allow someone to access such an important health product. On foot of her raising the issue, I will engage further with the Minister for education and the Minister for Health.  There are also commitments in the women's health action plan in this area. As the Deputy rightly said, we, as a country, have made good progress on period poverty. We have seen the expansion and roll-out of period products. However, there is more to do in this area.  The DEIS plus plan announced last May included a commitment to fund and provide period products to all DEIS plus schools in the next school year to ensure dignity and that no student is held back due to period poverty. It is intended to expand that provision to all upper primary, post-primary and special schools during the lifetime of this Government. I know from my time as the Minister for higher education that some good work on the issue has been done in our universities and education and training boards, ETBs. On foot of the Deputy raising this, I will stock take on exactly where we are with the roll-out. I am fully in agreement that this is something we need to deliver and try to make progress on in the time ahead. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Whitmore  The Minister for justice recently brought in reforms for the criminal justice legal aid system. While we all recognise that there is a need for reform within the system, the reforms that the Minister has brought in are ill-considered, not backed up by data or evidence and have led to absolute chaos in the courts system. Solicitors have removed themselves from free legal aid work.  The Wicklow courts system has essentially ground to a halt. No Wicklow solicitors are participating or providing free legal aid advice. It means that in recent weeks, cases involving assault, domestic violence, theft, drugs and possession of child pornography have not gone ahead in Wicklow. There are victims in Wicklow who are not able to access justice at the moment because these new changes have brought chaos. Hundreds of jurors were recently told that their services were no longer required. Many vulnerable people in the legal system are falling through gaps.  I know this decision went through the Cabinet and was signed off but in light of the impact that this is happening on our courts system, will the T\u00e1naiste push for the process to be stalled? We need it stopped. We need there to be proper consultation. We need a clear, coherent and properly working policy to be developed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  We also need to recognise that the Minister for justice has increased criminal legal aid fees by 8% in the Circuit Court and higher courts from 1 July 2026. Not too many of our constituents are receiving an increase of 8%. This represents a total restoration of----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Whitmore  None of them are getting legal justice. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  Deputy, please allow the T\u00e1naiste to reply. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  Reforms are sometimes difficult. The Minister has also introduced a fee of \u20ac520 for District Court criminal cases under the criminal legal aid scheme. This figure represents the current fee paid for five appearances in the District Court, plus a further 8% on top of that. I note that the Social Democrats have used colourful language about the Minister, including comparisons with Margaret Thatcher and all of that. It makes for great headlines. This is an important----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Whitmore  I have never used that language. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  The Deputy's colleague who is sitting beside her has done. The party spokesperson has. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  Deputy Whitmore----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  The Deputy did say that. I read his comments. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Gary Gannon  I said I did. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  The T\u00e1naiste to conclude. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  The Deputies comprise a party. The party has chosen to call the Minister for justice names. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  Thank you. We will move to the next question in the name of Deputy Conway-Walsh. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I am disappointed that Deputy Whitmore----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Whitmore  Is the Minister okay that----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  Deputy Whitmore, please address your remarks through the Chair. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  Deputy Whitmore is trying to play all sides here. We are increasing the amount being paid in criminal legal aid. We are trying to speed up the delivery of justice in the District Court system. We are also trying to bring about reforms. Many of our constituents believe there is significant room for reform to the free legal aid system. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Whitmore  We agree about the need for reform. Do it properly. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  The Minister for justice has been engaging and will continue to engage. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh  This morning, workers at Aer Lingus woke up to the devastating news that up to 500 jobs will be cut at the airline, impacting both staff at head office and flight crews. By all measures, Aer Lingus is a profitable company, reporting operating profits of \u20ac282 million in 2025. Its parent company, IAG, has operating profits of \u20ac5 billion. Yet, 500 families in north Dublin, Cork, Shannon and across the country now face the possibility of losing their livelihoods. We urgently need firm guarantees that workers' rights will be protected. What engagement has the Minister for enterprise had with Aer Lingus to minimise the number of jobs that are going to be lost? Will the Government meet representatives of the unions, the Irish Air Line Pilots Association, IALPA, F\u00f3rsa and other unions, to ensure that impacted workers receive full and fair redundancy packages and that we have full transparency, while also committing to wider statutory redundancy reforms? We need the number of jobs lost to be minimised. We need urgent engagement by the Government. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I thank the Deputy. The Government is aware of the recent announcement by Aer Lingus that it is to undertake some network and organisational changes as a result of what it describes as a sustained and challenging operational environment. It has stated that it will begin consultation with employees and their representatives, which is important and urgent. It has said that it expects the impact could potentially see approximately 500 employees leave the company.  I also note that the network changes include the cessation of a number of long-haul routes and some short-haul routes, commencing towards the end of the summer. The company has said that any customers impacted will be contacted directly.  This is a commercial matter for the company but some of the issues that the Deputy has raised are relevant matters for the Government. On foot of her raising them, I will ask the Minister to come back to her. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Gary Gannon  Does the T\u00e1naiste recognise the scale of the chaos in our criminal justice system at the moment? Thousands  of cases have been adjourned. Victims will await justice. Backlogs are building. We now have habeas corpus cases taking place in the High Court. The Minister referenced my flowery language. I am surprised that Fine Gael is giving the Minister for justice such free rein in relation to the chaos he has caused. Prior to taking up the position, the Minister was critical of Fine Gael's handling of the justice system for the preceding 14 years. We now have criminal courts coming to a standstill and all the Government offers is soundbites. I am not talking about the T\u00e1naiste's soundbites. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  You did the Margaret Thatcher line. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Gary Gannon  The Government offered no analysis by which the decision was made. In recognition of the chaos in our courts, can the T\u00e1naiste, as Minister for Finance and leader of Fine Gael, simply say he is willing to engage in a manner that the Minister is not? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  It was unhelpful to refer to the Minister for justice as Margaret Thatcher. That was the flowery and colourful language----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Gary Gannon  He said he was not for turning. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  -----that was unhelpful. Reforms are difficult and tough. The Social Democrats show a great appetite for reform in some areas. They were squarely behind the Minister for Health in her reforms for consultants. When it comes to the lawyers, the party is adopting a different approach. That is an interesting insight.  The Minister for justice is increasing the flat rate fee that is being paid. It is going to result in the current fee being paid for five appearances in the District Court, plus an 8% increase. How many times does someone need to go in front of the District Court? It is paying for five appearances, plus an 8% increase. Reforms are hard but if this is an insight into how the Social Democrats would govern the country, through cherry-picking and giving in to every campaign----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Whitmore  It would be based on evidence. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  -----well, quelle surprise . "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruth Coppinger  Next Wednesday, the trial continues of the Ulm five, including the Irish citizen, Daniel Tatlow-Devally. A delegation of TDs and Senators, including me, will attend the trial in Stuttgart next week. The Government was asked to monitor the trial and on 21 May 2026, the Minister, Deputy McEntee, said, \"We will ensure that there is fair oversight of this trial.\" A senior counsel who attended the trial wrote to the Minister and other Ministers on 22 June to state that there is no official record being taken at the trial. There is no stenographer at the trial. There is no audio recording of the trial. Defendants cannot bring their own stenographers or note-takers. The accused rely on court-appointed translators but the lawyers cannot hear what these translators are saying. They cannot confer with their clients. No record is available afterwards to check what was said. This is not a trial that would take place in Ireland. Any of these issues would possibly be enough to set aside a conviction.  A representative of the Irish Government should be there. Will the T\u00e1naiste request a stenographer at this trial in Stuttgart next Wednesday, in defence of an Irish citizen and others, and due process, as was promised? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I thank the Deputy for raising the issue. I am not aware of all those details that the Deputy has put on the record of the House but on foot of her doing so, I will make inquiries today and ask that the relevant Minister reverts to her. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paula Butterly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paula-Butterly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paula-Butterly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paula Butterly  I, too, welcome the scoping exercise in relation to the allegations of sexual abuse made against Michael Shine. Like the T\u00e1naiste, I was struck by the words of the victims and survivors in noting that finally, they had been heard. I was also struck by their saying that finally, they had been believed.  Imagine, after 20, 30, 40 or even 50 years, coming out with words like \"I now finally have been believed\". That is quite incredible. I thank Dignity4Patients and praise the courage of the victims and survivors. They have never given in and have refused to lie down and allow their history and allow their abuses to be washed away. This is really important but the next steps are equally important if not more important,. Will there be any barriers to cost or funding? Will there be any barriers to the terms and conditions and the participation of the victims and survivors? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Health (Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill)  I thank Deputy Butterly. I thank Dignity4Patients and thank the men - overwhelmingly it is men - who collaborated with us and worked with us on this process. I thank Lorcan Staines who, I think the Deputy will see from the report, has adopted a most empathetic approach that is different from any language that has been used about this and about these men in the past. I thank him for his kindness and the way in which he has embraced that. Dignity4Patients was with us as a partner and the men were with us as partners at every stage. That will be the case the next time. Of course it is for Government to sign off on the terms of reference and that is always the case but we will take the same collaborative approach to the next phase as we have this phase. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Carol Nolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Carol Nolan  The T\u00e1naiste will share my profound horror at the recent brutal murder of Jamey Carney, the absconding of her so-called partner to Jordan and the wider pattern of escalating violence against women that was raised earlier. Will the T\u00e1naiste also agree that no aspect or provision of the International Protection Act should ever inadvertently give cover to someone or hamper An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na in the effective discharge of its duties in terms of releasing information on those suspected of such crimes, regardless of whether they are international protection applicants? Will the T\u00e1naiste accept that absolute clarity is required so that operational decisions by An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na are never influenced by any perceived legal constraint? Will he therefore commit to a review of the relevant legislative and operational frameworks to ensure that, regardless of current statutory provisions, no chilling effect is being caused or created that might discourage or inhibit the reporting or public identification of suspects who are also international protection applicants, where such reporting is necessary for public safety or investigation purposes? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I thank Deputy Nolan for raising the issue and I join her and all Members of the House in extending our absolute sympathy to the family of Jamey Carney and our repulsion, horror and deep sadness at what has occurred. This Government, through our law enforcement authorities, through An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, will go to the ends of the earth to ensure justice is served. There is already a very significant active Garda investigation under way, as the Deputy is aware, with pan-jurisdiction elements too, as you would expect. On the broader point I would follow the advice and views of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na on that. The immediate priority is obviously the ongoing criminal investigation but if there is a moment of reflection or review the Garda thinks would assist it from a public safety point of view, of course the Government would take that most seriously. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig O'Sullivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-O'Sullivan.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-O'Sullivan.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy P\u00e1draig O'Sullivan  Imagine being the father of two boys who have Friedreich's ataxia and one of them passing away. I know the T\u00e1naiste is familiar with the case of Craig Coady. I normally do not personalise stories in here but he spoke about this quite openly on Red FM in Cork on Tuesday. He went home that evening and his son asked him if they had got the drug. Imagine telling your son that unfortunately the answer was \"Not yet\", only for him to turn around and say \"Dad, it's okay if we don't get the drug because at least if I die I'll meet Rory\". It is extremely upsetting for many people and, as I said, I do not normally personalise things, but this has been referred to a rare diseases technology review committee which is due to meet in the next few weeks. I am pleading for that to be done as expeditiously as possible. I am not asking anybody to comment on the process itself as I know we have to respect it, but is it possible that the review committee can be brought forward and convened as quickly as possible to see this through one way or another because of the mental trauma, anguish and emotion? Many people travelled up on Tuesday. One girl made a ten-hour round trip from Bantry in hope and expectation. Unfortunately, we have created these campaigns because the system is broken. The T\u00e1naiste said that himself back in 2017. It is going to be Groundhog Day. I have hope that with the review the Minister has commenced this will become a relic of the past. I sincerely hope so. In the here and now I am begging for that review committee to be brought forward as urgently as possible. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill  I thank the Deputy for his continued advocacy for all people with rare diseases. We are trying to change the system specifically to get better access for rare diseases and we are partnering with other countries to try to do that as quickly as possible.  It is wrong that we are negotiating against each other as member states, in some cases, with pharmaceutical companies. We have not reached the best solution on a European basis. There is work there to be done and as president of the Council of the European Union on health I will be taking this forward on that basis. Also, within Ireland we are trying to improve the system. Nevertheless, the process is, as the Deputy knows, science-led and because it was not approved by the drugs group it has to go to this rare diseases technical review group. The difference between those groups is the first group is a standing group. It exists every month, whether it is oncology drugs or rare disease drugs, and this other one is an extra opportunity where, if the first group does not approve it based on scientific grounds, there is an extra opportunity for those clinicians who are actively working with patients with Friedreich\u2019s ataxia or the relevant rare disease to have their say, to make their case and give the best explanation of how they think it might work. It is about the HSE giving every opportunity to make the case for a particular drug, particularly where the science is more mixed than is the case for other drugs. I commit to the Deputy \u2013 I have already asked that it be brought forward as quickly as possible - but I recognise that we are dependent on individual clinicians who may be here or may be there who are not routinely on this and I would rather have the right people in the room to give this the best opportunity than to do it a week earlier and have missed the opportunity to have the correct people. We really are trying to make it happen as quickly as possible. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Rory Hearne  I thank you, a Leas Cheann-Comhairle, for your work and support during the year and thank all the staff here. I wish my colleagues in government the best of luck over the summer and respite from our robust engagement. We look forward to going at it again in the autumn.  I want to raise an issue related to Dublin Fire Brigade and the emergency response framework that exists. I have been very concerned by the ongoing threat to that service. I have met fire brigade staff. I ask the T\u00e1naiste to engage with the Minister for housing and for the Government to engage on this issue. Dublin Fire Brigade staff and SIPTU have expressed their deep concern that this excellent service is now in the process of being downgraded and split across two services. The Dublin public will be very upset when they realise their fire fighters and emergency response service are at risk of being split and downgraded. Two systems are going to be introduced which will fragment the system and undermine the existing incident command structures and place elements of the Dublin Fire Brigade emergency response outside the current single operating system, which is a gold standard emergency response system. Will the Minister for housing meet the Dublin Fire Brigade in his local government capacity and also get Dublin City Council management to engage and ensure the current excellent Dublin emergency response service continues to exist? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I thank Deputy Hearne and wish him and his party the very best for the recess as well. I will miss him over the next few weeks but I look forward to these robust exchanges again in September. I will be in training for them between now and then.  On the issue he raised, I will certainly ask the Minister, Deputy Browne, to engage with the bodies the Deputy suggested and also with Dublin City Council on this matter. I will ask that he comes back to the Deputy directly as well.  A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, can I acknowledge our colleague here who often sits here in front of us, Ms Noreen Banim? I am conscious of the passing of her mother, Maura, whose funeral is taking place today. On behalf of all Members, the Banim family are in our thoughts and prayers. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  Thanks, T\u00e1naiste. Deputy O\u2019Gorman is next. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Roderic O'Gorman  Fingal County Council is currently doing a consultation on a plan to build a new suburb for Dublin at Dunsink. The proposal is for up to 18,000 new homes, most of which will be built on State-owned land, which will I hope will mean more affordable prices.  Fingal County Council plans to build the first 2,500 by 2029. Central to the success of this project is new public transport, with an extension of the Luas green line from Broombridge out as far as Tyrrelstown, which would see three new stops across the Dunsink lands. Right now, under the Dublin transport plan, the Luas green line extension is not due until after 2042, which is far too late. The new community will not work without high-quality public transport being delivered. I ask the T\u00e1naiste to ask the Minister for Transport to bring forward the plan for the Luas green line extension to Tyrrelstown to complement the delivery of these new homes. I am sure Deputy Currie will support my proposal. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I hear whispers of \"I concur\" behind me as well from Deputy Currie. I thank Deputy O'Gorman for raising the issue of the extension of the Luas green line. I have heard this case be made pretty compellingly over the last while. In fairness to the Minister for Transport, I am conscious that he has a capital envelope to live within. I am also conscious there is a medium-term fiscal framework that allows for the allocation of additional capital over the lifetime of the Government. Perhaps that may be an avenue. I will certainly talk to the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, and ask him to keep in touch with the Deputy on the matter. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  I join with the T\u00e1naiste in his expression of condolences to the Banim family and to Noreen, whom we all know here, on the death of her mother, Maura. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mark Wall  I thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle for saying that. I extend our condolences on behalf of the Labour Party. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna ar Pholasa\u00ed n\u00f3 ar Reachta\u00edocht - Questions on Policy or Legislation"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_35","debateType":"debate","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/81","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/81\/dail\/1","houseCode":"dail","stage":"1","isBillStage":true,"showAs":"Electoral (Postal Voting) (Carers) Bill 2026: First Stage (D\u00e1il)"}},"showAs":"Electoral (Postal Voting) (Carers) Bill 2026: First Stage","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_35","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mark Wall  I move:  That leave be granted to introduce a Bill entitled an Act to entitle certain persons caring for others to be entered in the register of postal voters, for that purpose to amend the Electoral Act 1992, and to provide for related matters.  I am very happy to introduce the Electoral (Postal Voting) (Carers) Bill 2026 for family carers throughout this country. For too long, family carers have been made to feel invisible due to the lack of recognition of their extraordinary value in Irish society. The facts are very simple. There are over 620,000 of these family carers, saving the State \u20ac20 billion a year and providing 19 million unpaid hours each week. They are, in themselves, a second HSE, doing quite extraordinary work. They cannot engage in the democratic process like every other ordinary citizen because they work 24-7, 365 days a year, with no break.  This Bill is a small but necessary step to ensure that family carers feel that they can use their voice by voting. Quite often, the family carers I meet daily tell me they simply do not have time to get to the ballot box. They are disappointed because, while the person they care for has a postal vote, the carer does not. That simply does not make sense to them. There are number of major issues impacting family carers, like accessing vital supports for themselves and their loved ones, navigating the administrative nightmare of social welfare and juggling their caring role with work and other family commitments. They are under a huge amount of stress and getting to a ballot box is always going to be at the bottom of their list. The Government needs to recognise the huge amount of work that family carers do day in, day out and try to make their lives that bit easier by ensuring they have access to a postal vote. It will be a very small change that could help hundreds of thousands of carers feel like they have a voice and will be able use their vote for the first time in a very long time. That is true democracy.  Overall, many believe the Government has been very slow to extend postal voting to many citizens in this country and that is something that needs to be progressed. I understand that the Electoral Commission is undertaking research on this, but we really need to see changes in our voting system to ensure that everyone can take part on voting day. I know that during the general election, and more recently in the presidential election and by-elections, postal voting was discussed for a number of other situations, such as people being away on voting day. This is a very valid point and I hope that over the course of this Government we will see postal voting extended to all eligible citizens.  In countries such as Australia, New Zealand, South Korea and even the US, postal voting is available. In Europe there are examples in Luxembourg, the UK, Switzerland, Iceland, Poland, Greece and Germany. I believe that Ireland needs to follow these examples and ensure that postal voting is extended much wider. We are seeing lower turnouts in our elections and extending postal votes to a wider range of people would be one measure that could help us all address this issue.  I appreciate that the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage may be waiting on the research to be received from the Electoral Commission on postal voting. However, I hope he will see the need here today and take the first step towards ensuring that at least family carers will have a right to a postal vote alongside the person they are caring for.  I hope the Minister will support this Bill to progress through the House. The Government must recognise the need not just for postal voting but to allow family carers the right to engage in politics by using a postal vote. It is a small but necessary change that will give family carers more of a voice. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  Is the Bill being opposed? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment (Deputy Alan Dillon)  No. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  Since this is a Private Members' Bill, Second Stage must, under Standing Orders, be taken in Private Members' time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mark Wall  I move: \"That the Bill be taken in Private Members' time.\" "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  That concludes our business for this morning. I thank all the Members, the staff, the press and everyone involved in the House for their co-operation during the term. I want to acknowledge the fact that we had Cara Darmody in the Public Gallery this morning. I omitted to mention that. I wish her well in the campaign and in her efforts. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Cuireadh an D\u00e1il ar fionra\u00ed ar 1.36 p.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 2.17 p.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Sitting suspended at 1.36 p.m. and resumed at 2.17 p.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Electoral (Postal Voting) (Carers) Bill 2026: First Stage"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_36","debateType":"statement","bill":null,"showAs":"Fiscal Implications of a United Ireland: Statements","counts":{"speechCount":37,"speakerCount":28},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_36","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Mac Lochlainn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"R\u00e9ada Cronin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin Hayes","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Currie","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cormac Devlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cormac-Devlin.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cormac-Devlin.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Stanley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Natasha Newsome Drennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Kenny.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Martin-Kenny.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Nicholas Gogarty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Lahart","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Lahart.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Lahart.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Finance (Deputy Simon Harris)  I sincerely welcome the fact we are having this debate. Colleagues will recall that the matter to which it relates arose during questions to me in my role as Minister for Finance a number of months ago. A view was expressed to the effect that it would be worth having a debate on the matter. I am very pleased that we have been able to facilitate that debate in Government time today. I apologise that I will not be able to stay for the duration of the debate, but a number of Government colleagues will be here to participate. I was eager that we should have this discussion kicked-off before the summer recess. I am pleased that we have managed, as an Oireachtas, to facilitate that.  I am obviously committed, as I know everybody in this House is, to realising the full potential of the Good Friday Agreement for all the people of this island. At the core of that agreement is the principle of consent and the recognition that the future constitutional status of Northern Ireland rests in the hands of the people. That principle was democratically endorsed by the people of Ireland, North and South, and remains the foundation upon which progress is and should be built.  Guided by Article 3 of the Constitution as amended by the people in 1998, the Government's approach is to foster reconciliation, deepen relationships and prepare for the future through respectful dialogue and engagement. Thus, in the event of a referendum delivered within the consent provisions of the Good Friday Agreement, the Government will make all necessary preparations in accordance with the terms of the Constitution and the principles and procedures of the agreement.  One of the reasons we are having this debate is that when we had the parliamentary questions on finance to which I refer a number of months ago, there was a recognition that if and when - I believe it is when - there is a referendum, the big issues of debate are going to be the economy, the all-island economy, the cost involved and, I hope, the benefit that will accrue. While I doubt that we, collectively, will manage to answer every question during this debate, I hope we will certainly put on the record of the D\u00e1il the information, insights and data that we have. I hope people will also refer to the further data that are required or the further work that we believe needs to be done.  Before getting into that, I will say the Government has maintained a sustained focus on reconciliation and trying to strengthen the three relationships at the heart of the Good Friday Agreement - relationships between communities in the North, between North and South and relationships east and west, between Ireland and Britain. By strengthening these relationships and fostering greater partnership and understanding, we can unlock the full potential of our island and create lasting opportunities for future generations. In Government, we have made this commitment real and tangible through the shared island initiative. Here, we prioritise the essential work of building co-operation and reconciliation and have brought about an ambitious agenda to deliver meaningful progress, while remaining steadfast in fully implementing the Good Friday Agreement and its potential.  To date, the Government has advanced the largest ever programme of all-island investment to build a more connected island through the shared island initiative, backed by a \u20ac2 billion fund. In April 2025, we launched a new phase of a joint research programme with the ESRI focusing on strategic policy and co-operation possibilities for the island. In December 2025, I launched the first report on what will now be a new annual ESRI series to analyse economic trends across the island. I think those comparative data, year on year, will be helpful. Overall, this Government continues and wants to continue to deepen our partnership with the Northern Ireland Executive and the UK Government in its role as coguarantor of the Good Friday Agreement. We are working to fully harness the agreement to foster reconciliation between the different communities of this island.  The topic of today's debate, the fiscal implications of a united Ireland, is one of the most important questions in any discussion about Ireland's future. I occupy a number of roles within Government and politics, including my role as leader of the Fine Gael Party, in which I have outlined my view and that of my party on the next steps we intend to take. I am speaking today in my role as Ireland's Minister for Finance.  The debate we need to have from a fiscal point of view needs to be informed by evidence and analysis on the opportunities and challenges that constitutional change may bring. Let me clear, and I think we have got to be clear and honest. If she does not mind me saying so, I heard Deputy McDonald asked about this on radio recently. People look for very clear and straightforward answers in relation to fiscal costs. We have got to be truthful about this, as the Deputy was. It remains highly uncertain because it is a very dynamic situation. That is the first point I wanted to make as Minister for Finance.  Recent studies on the impacts reach widely different conclusions. It is also important to acknowledge that. That is largely because they rely on a different set of assumptions. All of this is based on a set of assumptions and there is a whole variety of those assumptions. Which public spending obligations will transfer to the new Ireland? How would the tax code be applied? How might Northern Ireland's economy develop over the long term as part of a unified island? What will be the extent, if any, of ongoing UK fiscal commitments? I note the debate and discussion around that.  For example, to give some sense of the range of data we have heard, a study by Dublin City University, DCU, and Ulster University estimated last year that reunification could carry and initial net fiscal cost of around \u20ac3 billion per annum for the Irish State, which I am calling Ireland. The same study also suggested, however, that a unified economy could reach a fiscal break-even within five to nine years, assuming Northern Ireland's reintegration into the EU and considerable productivity improvements in the North.  On the other hand, and perhaps at the other end of the spectrum, research published by the Institute of International European Affairs in 2024 presents, from a purely fiscal point of view, a much more pessimistic outlook. It projects annual costs of up to \u20ac20 billion for the Irish State for up to two decades. Its assumptions are driven by the need to align welfare, pensions and public service pay across the island, as well as the loss of funding from the UK's central government. My own Department published a report called Shared Island, Shared Economy in 2024. It found that the Northern Ireland-specific fiscal deficit - that is to say, total expenditure in the North less total tax revenue raised in the North - was in the region of around \u00a37 billion sterling in 2020.  However, too often the debate begins and ends with estimates of simple fiscal transfers or of headline costs of transition to a unified island. These are, of course, important considerations and they must be honestly addressed. They should be put out there and scrutinised but they are only part of a much larger economic picture. The question is not simply what a united Ireland could cost but what it could create. One of the most significant opportunities, I believe, lies in services. Services account for the overwhelming majority of economic activity across these islands, yet Northern Ireland currently sits outside the EU Single Market for services. Constitutional change would provide businesses across the island with seamless access to one of the world's largest integrated markets for services.  It could be assumed that labour mobility would also become a powerful driver of economic growth. While people already move freely across the Border, employers, education providers and workers continue to navigate different regulatory systems, qualifications, tax arrangements and employment frameworks. We have a porous Border where people move, quite rightly, across the island but they do not do it with absolute ease and there is a number of regulatory, taxation and employment challenges that are faced. It would also support more coherent investment in education, apprenticeships and lifelong skills across the entire island.  The transition to the euro, which I presume would be part of the discussion, would represent another important structural advantage. Operating within a single currency would eliminate exchange rate risk, reduce transaction costs for businesses and consumers, and would simplify cross-Border trade and investment.  Perhaps nowhere would the economic dividend be more visible than in the north east and north west of the island. For too long, counties such as Donegal, Derry and Tyrone have found themselves at the edge of two separate jurisdictions rather than at the centre of one coherent economic region. Equally important would be the ability for State bodies to operate across the entire island. Agencies responsible for enterprise, industrial development, research, innovation and infrastructure would be able to plan and deliver on an all-island basis rather than duplicating effort or working within jurisdictional constraints.  I make these points because I think it is an important debate but it is sometimes reduced to a lazy debate that says, \"Please produce one singular figure that answers all of these complex fiscal questions\". I can tell Deputies that as the finance Minister of this country, and based on what I have put on the record of the House, that is not possible but it is also not intelligent. This is a much more dynamic situation. There are serious economic and fiscal issues to be considered but any discussion about a unified Ireland, a united Ireland or a new Ireland, or the island of Ireland operating as one, that simply reduces the economic conversation to one headline cost, misses the point. That is really one of the points I wanted to make today.  Having said that, none of this suggests the transition would be without significant cost - of course, it would not - nor would it be without significant complexity. It would require careful planning and sustained development. It would require responsible fiscal management. However, fiscal analysis must capture both sides of the ledger. That is why the fiscal debate should not be framed solely about what we inherit; it should be framed about what we are capable of building North and South and purely today, from an economic point of view, the benefits of that over time.  Overall, research consistently highlights that the ultimate fiscal outcome will depend heavily on the terms of any reunification settlement and the extent to which economic convergence is achieved across the island in the years following reunification. The fiscal position in year one would, of course, not remain static. Over time, costs and revenues would evolve as both economies adapt, grow and become integrated. How these opportunities are managed, and the extent to which these benefits are realised, will be the key determinant of the long-term fiscal impact. In other words, these outcomes are not predetermined. They will be shaped by the policy choices we make, the policies we pursue and the decisions we make.  On the one hand, these future fiscal trends come with considerable uncertainty. On the other, they point to one fact: that the fiscal deficit in year one would be significant, regardless of how we wish to cost it. We cannot expect reunification to come at no fiscal cost. It is vital, therefore, to bear in mind the current fiscal situation. In 2025, total net tax receipts in our jurisdiction amount to \u20ac106.5 billion. However, we can all recognise that exceptionally strong corporation tax receipts masks the underlying position of the public finances. When these transitory revenues are excluded, the underlying general Government balance in 2025 was a deficit of \u20ac7.1 billion. In that context, the scale of any reunification-related cost, at least at the start, would be significant. An annual cost of \u20ac3 billion would amount to less than 3% of total tax revenue while an annual cost of \u20ac20 billion would be equivalent to almost one fifth of all tax revenue receipts. I make that point to show the range of assumptions that are out there. Either figure would clearly have a material impact on the public finances affecting not only the headline budget position but also the underlying fiscal balance. This illustrates why the range of estimates matters. They are not simply academic differences. Each figure would have a significant implication in terms of spending tax and resilience. Any assessment of reunification must, therefore, be firmly rooted in the context of our fiscal position and indeed the level of taxation borne by citizens and businesses.  It is very much a mixed picture. It is much more dynamic than suggested by people who want to reduce conversations to, \"Tell me the figure right now\". There will certainly be a significant cost, a broad range in terms of what that cost could be, and a significant difference in terms of the impact of that cost, depending on where it ends in the range. That is year one and perhaps the years ahead. It is not a static number and the decisions that a new Ireland would make would very much depend on the fiscal journey our country is on. That is my best assessment of the points I am trying to make here.  Over the longer term, my Department's Future Forty research also examines how both domestic developments and global megatrends could shape the Irish economy and public finances over the next four decades. This also serves as a useful context for the debate.  Future Forty's message is clear: Ireland's future will be shaped by powerful forces such as demographic change, digitalisation, the climate transition and an increasingly uncertain global economic environment. As policymakers, the task will be to anticipate these challenges, invest wisely and ensure that our economy and our public finances are sufficiently resilient to meet the challenges of the decades ahead. Vitally, we must acknowledge that these pressures will exist regardless of our future constitutional arrangements. These are pressures that we know we will face. An ageing population, increasing healthcare needs, the transition to net zero and the need for continued investment in housing, energy and infrastructure will place a significant demand on public resources. Future Forty serves as an important reminder that our fiscal capacity is not unlimited and that, as a result choices will inevitably arise as to how best to deploy finite resources.  It is important that we begin examining these issues now. Preparing for the future means understanding the economic, fiscal and societal implications of all possible futures, including the prospect of a united Ireland. Any future constitutional change must be underpinned, from an economic point of view, by rigorous analysis, responsible financial and policy planning and a clear understanding of how that will impact the lives of people across this island. Questions of public services, healthcare outcomes, pensions, taxation, infrastructure, housing, education and economic competitiveness are not simply secondary considerations. I am not suggesting anyone believes they are. They have to be at the centre of any informed discussion about Ireland's future.  The research undertaken to date has clearly demonstrated that the range of potential fiscal outcomes is wide and uncertain. This uncertainty must encourage more debate on the topic. That is why we are having this debate today. We should not run from this conversation. In fact, we should run towards and embrace it. This is an important conversation. It is only through evidence-based research, open discussion and rigorous scrutiny, including putting all the information at the table even that we might find challenging that we can ultimately reduce uncertainty and crucially deliver what people will need in this debate, namely, transparency and clarity.  Today's debate is not meant to advocate for one particular outcome, although we probably share a view of what we would like that outcome to be over time. For the first time in D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann that I remember in a long time if ever - I certainly do not recall it - we aim to try and put as many facts and as much data and information on the record of this House to ensure that citizens and policymakers alike are equipped with the information needed to make informed choices. It is also to try and push back, as I have tried to do in this contribution, against the headline figure. It is a much more dynamic environment than that. Getting the right answers is built on the meticulous work of asking the right questions. During the course of the debate today, let us put on the record the questions that people believe need to be answered. The economic and fiscal consequences of constitutional change are too important to be left to assumptions. They require evidence and scrutiny.  As we have seen in academic research, in many ways, the conversation about Ireland's future is under way. Our responsibility now is to ensure that the debate is respectful, inclusive and, crucially, grounded in evidence. It is in that spirit that we have tabled this time today on a cross-party basis. I look forward to a productive discussion this afternoon and to this, perhaps, being a jumping-off point for more debate and scrutiny in the time ahead. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mary Lou McDonald  I warmly welcome this initiative on the part of the T\u00e1naiste. This is certainly not the first time that Irish unity has been raised on the floor of House, but, generally speaking, it is those of us of this political stripe and on this side of the House who have been pressing for it, so I sincerely thank the T\u00e1naiste for his commentary, which I find constructive. Actually, I find it very refreshing that, as T\u00e1naiste and leader of Fine Gael, he advocates that we embrace this conversation. That is exactly where we need to be. I commend the T\u00e1naiste on that.  This is a significant moment for all of us because the 30th anniversary of the Good Friday Agreement is approaching. Let us review how far we have come. Our peace is secure and the next chapter of our national journey is without doubt the peaceful democratic achievement of Irish reunification. We all have a stake in that. Ten years on from Brexit, our constitutional and economic landscapes have fundamentally changed. The North has been taken out of the EU against the wishes of its people, yet we still maintain an open Border and free movement across the island. Cross-Border trade has grown from \u20ac4.5 billion to more than \u20ac17 billion, which is significant.  Irish unity represents the greatest economic opportunity in the history of this island. That opportunity cannot be missed; it must be grasped. For too long we have been constrained by partition, with two jurisdictions, two tax systems, two sets of regulation, duplication of public services, fragmented and incomplete infrastructure and artificial barriers to trade, investment, higher education and skills. The T\u00e1naiste referred to that. No economy, of its own volition, would choose to organise itself in this way. We have the opportunity to build one robust economy that will work in the interests of our people.  When one enlarges a market, one creates opportunity. Businesses gain more customers, invest with confidence, create jobs and drive productivity and prosperity grows. Partition creates barriers; unity can remove them. For people in the Border counties, the economic cost of partition was never an abstract concept, but the rest of us can miss that there was actually a price tag for all of us, not just for people in the Six Counties or those who live along the Border. Businesses faced unnecessary barriers and investment and infrastructure became fragmented. Both often stopped at the Border. We can change all of that. We can create opportunity and allow business to flourish.  I agree with the T\u00e1naiste that, far too often, economic debate and fiscal consideration have hinged on the subvention from the British Government. In other words, on a singular figure and a debate around what that figure is. Very often, \u00a314 billion is quoted as the figure. Of course, that does not take account of issues around pensions, British national debt, defence spending, diplomatic services, etc. All of these are extant matters which, in my strong view, need to be discounted from that figure, notwithstanding the fact that as and when unity comes about, there will naturally be a discussion and a negotiation with the British state around the terms of disengagement and transition. We should take listen carefully to Professor Seamus McGuinness of the ESRI, who says that the subvention is no longer of a scale that can be considered a major barrier to reunification. Professor John Doyle argues that if the Northern economy performed at the level of the economies of Cork or Kerry, there could likely be no underlying fiscal deficit at all.  The question is not whether we can afford Irish unity; it is whether we can afford partition any longer. I completely agree with the T\u00e1naiste that preparation is key. He spoke about rigorous analysis, planning and an open and inclusive discussion. To that I say, yes, yes, and yes again. I agree entirely with him on that but the real question is this. The preparation needs to be led not alone by a singular figure in Government - by the T\u00e1naiste or his political party Fine Gael. It needs to be led collectively by all of them. The T\u00e1naiste's initiative makes the position of his coalition partners in Fianna F\u00e1il all the more striking, all the more extraordinary and, frankly, all the more inexplicable. I thank the T\u00e1naiste for this opportunity and discussion. Like him, I hope this will be the beginning of a really deep engagement that will involve sharing data, perspectives, politics, ideas and debate. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell  I really welcome the decision by the T\u00e1naiste and the Government to have these statements on the fiscal implications of a united Ireland. It is crucial that we continue with debates of this type. These are really important and interesting debates and they are about future planning and seeing that we are prepared in the event of a united Ireland. As the T\u00e1naiste and my party leader outlined, the debate around the economics of united Ireland often does hinge on particular figures, namely the big figures that are being thrown around. It involves talk about the so-called cost of Irish unity. Within this debate, it is often assumed that the North is just going to be subsumed into the South without looking at what that would mean economically. It almost seems like the economic status quo will simply continue. That needs to change in the context of this debate because we are talking about a new and united Ireland that will include a new and different perspective on the opportunities that we see for us all from an economic perspective when it comes to a united Ireland  When we are planning for this, we need to look at that in terms of the economic perspective. That needs to be based on it being fair, equal and prosperous for everyone - one where we have strong public services and, most importantly, one that actually works in the interests of all the people who live in Ireland.  Partition has left people in the North without control of their economy. They have been made spectators as major economic decisions are made in Westminster. Working people, whether unionist, nationalist or other, have been failed by partition because at the end of the day, a Westminster Parliament is making decisions on behalf of their communities. Irish unity has really got the potential to deliver for all of our communities, including those communities. It allows us to improve our quality of life and, crucially, gives us as a people ownership and a real stake in our economy.  Irish unity and economic change can go hand in hand. The success of Irish unity demands that. It demands a better Ireland for everybody and that the interests of working people are put first and are front footed. It demands that our resources are harnessed to deliver public infrastructure projects and that every single person has equal opportunity in a new and a united Ireland and that their basic needs are met.  Without proper planning and preparation for Irish unity, we completely and utterly risk missing this seismic opportunity we have to create a new economy and seize this historic opportunity. It is absolutely essential that we begin preparations now.  We need to plan for an all-Ireland universal health service, an all-Ireland transport network - imagine easily accessing Donegal from Dublin on a train? - and an all-Ireland education system. We need to prepare for an informed and inclusive process of transition. To effectively make these preparations for a new economy of a united Ireland, it is necessary that we all work together. I welcome this and I think we should continue it. The Government can and must lead that change. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh  I thank Deputy Farrell for allowing me some of her time.  I think Michael Collins would be pleased with the T\u00e1naiste today. I thank him for allowing us Government time to discuss such an important issue. I also acknowledge the work Deputy Currie has consistently done in this space. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Simon Harris  Hear, hear. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh  I would need much longer than three minutes to discuss the fiscal implications of a united Ireland, such is the depth and breadth of the work already done. I commend all of those who have done it.  Leaving all politics aside, the economic benefits of reunification present unprecedented opportunities for sustainable growth. As we prepare for the constitutional future of this island, one of the key priorities must be creating an all-island competitive and conducive environment for foreign direct investment and indigenous businesses. The future prosperity of Ireland is dependent on Government policies which address and invest in the key drivers of FDI; human capital, infrastructure, political stability, tax certainty, digitisation and decarbonisation. The very open nature of the Irish economy and over-reliance on FDI and a small number of large US firms exposes an economic vulnerability that covers an underlying deficit of \u20ac13 billion. With an all-island approach, we can tackle that properly.  This vulnerability should be tackled by taking an all-island approach to investing in different levels of education and mitigating the socioeconomic barriers to education. A culture of lifelong learning must be encouraged by removing financial barriers and investing in childcare and public services across the island. Fulfilling investment commitments, as outlined in the national development plan and ensuring timely delivery of infrastructure such as all-island transport, telecommunications, utilities, housing and energy, are fundamental to the whole island\u2019s prosperity in the future. An all-island development agency is critical to this prosperity. Competing for investment from multinational companies, based on five interlinked pillars of growth, transformational regions, sustainability and impact as promoted by the IDA is necessary to compete on a global stage. One of the key benefits of reunification would be the access to human capital across the island, with both jurisdictions combined. We spoke about this with IBEC this morning. I commend IBEC and the ESRI on the work they have done on the macroeconomic model. That is hugely important and can solve that issue. I ask the T\u00e1naiste to focus in the interim on what needs to be done.  I ask the Government, through the shared-island unit, to provide funding for student places for students from the jurisdiction here. I refer to the legislation. We need to encourage student mobility across the island. I ask the shared island unit to intervene to provide funding for students from here going to Queen's University and Ulster University.  Regarding the data, the NI Executive should work with the ONS, HMRC and the NISRA to improve the data on tax receipts in the North. This would help to provide more reliable estimates and forecasting. It is about us having the data to be able to do the accurate forecasting we need to do. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Mac Lochlainn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy P\u00e1draig Mac Lochlainn  The opportunity to progress towards a united Ireland is incredibly exciting. It is an opportunity to reimagine our island and its potential. David McWilliams wrote in recent years about the impact of partition on the North of Ireland. Some 100 years ago, Belfast was larger than Dublin. Some 80% of the island's industrial output was in the area around Belfast. It was an industrial powerhouse. If we compare that to Dublin today, Dublin is way beyond that in population and economic productivity. The economic impact of partition has been devastating, particularly on the North of Ireland.  I can speak with some positivity about the north west. In recent times, we have had positive partnerships in the region standing up and showing the potential if we can break down the impact of the Border and work together.  In recent days, First Minister Michelle O'Neill visited Letterkenny Chamber of Commerce. Present were the heads of Donegal County Council, Atlantic Technological University, Donegal ETB and a range of employers and businesses from across the county. It has been working together with Derry Chamber of Commerce to market one region: the north west city region. They have worked together as councils - Donegal, Derry and Strabane - and as universities - the University of Ulster and Northwest College. We can see, for example, in the City of Derry Airport, 40% of the passengers who use that airport come from County Donegal. We are one region and one people and we have to break it down to achieve our economic potential.  There are many challenges in the Green Paper and the citizens\u2019 assembly, which will inevitably come. There are many challenges and issues but the easiest one is going to be the economic benefits of a united Ireland. They will be immense, particularly for the northern half of the island. As an eminent economist said, if the North of Ireland can perform at the level of counties Cork and Kerry alone, there will be no issues. It will do a lot better than that. The model of the north west is the model and vision of a way forward for a united Ireland. It is an exciting debate; let us have it and let us get on with it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darren O'Rourke  I welcome the opportunity to speak on statements on the fiscal implications of Irish unity. We hear people tell us Irish unity is a cost we cannot afford but the truth of the matter is partition is the cost we have already paid for for a century and more, and it is a price that is too high. Others have mentioned subvention and how it reduces when we strip away pensions and Westminster debt to an initial annual deficit of approximately \u20ac1.75 billion. I say \u201cinitial\u201d. In the context of a budget of over \u20ac125 billion for 2027, this is manageable. That deficit will disappear when the benefits of unity are realised.  If we are to consider the fiscal implications of Irish unity - of course, we should - then we must consider the cost of partition because the real economic failure is partition itself. It has created duplication, inefficiency and a barrier to our natural prosperity. It has left the North underfunded by Westminster\u2019s austerity and battered by the chaos of Brexit while the South has suffered from a fractured market and a divided island. We are both less than we could be.  Irish unity is not a burden; it is an investment.  It is an investment in ending the historic necessity for emigration, which has forced so many to leave our shores. It is also an investment in creating a single, dynamic all-island economy and in building the critical infrastructure our people deserve. The cost of not uniting - stagnation, two health systems, two tax regimes, a Border region and a wider economy that is held back - is far greater. We have the fiscal capacity and the moral imperative to make this work. We need the political will.  The British Government will still pay pensions, just as it does for retired citizens in Spain, France or Ireland. This debate, following on from last week's debate, and welcome plans in the months ahead from those in politics and elsewhere should be the catalyst for ambitious planning. Irish unity is not a cost to be feared; it is an opportunity to be seized. Let us build a new Ireland - economically vibrant, socially just and united in every way. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  I welcome this debate on the financial implications of a united Ireland. I acknowledge that the T\u00e1naiste and so many other Members in this House see its merits in the future. I would have hoped that in this House we would at least have moved past the time of framing this without casting a value judgment. Any discussion on the financial implications of a united Ireland today that is based upon credible analysis would show that Irish unity is a clear economic opportunity for the entire island, and one that we should seize with both hands. Today such arguments serve only as a tool tor those who would frustrate efforts to realise what is our national ambition. Far more relevant is the economic underperformance of the North, as outlined by Professor John Doyle. As a person from a Border county, the North should never have been treated any differently from Cork, Kerry or Dublin. Irish unity is an opportunity to move beyond very real consequences that were inflicted upon the North, by a dysfunctional British State, and one that is totally disinterested in the needs of our people.  This is an opportunity for the people in their ordinary lives and business, to move beyond artificial divergences, which at different times may have negative impacts on either side of the Border. This is an opportunity to seek not just co-operation, but holistic, integrated planning in terms of healthcare, transport, education, tourism and so much more. It is important that we are having this discussion but that we will have many more discussions that must be had if we want to achieve a united Ireland in a planned and structured way.  I recall to all Deputies, these words of Charles Stewart Parnell, spoken 141 years ago, and inscribed on a monument at the top of O\u2019Connell Street, less than 1 mile from here: \"No man has a right to fix the boundary of the march of a nation; no man has a right to say to his country, 'Thus far shalt thou go and no further.'\"  I would invite them, as demand for Irish unity grows, as its moment presents in front of us, to eagerly take a leading part in these conversations, and not to be a source of frustration. At the very least, they should never be contrarian to those sacred words.  I will finish today with a reference to the T\u00e1naiste's words about what a united Ireland could create. We in Sinn F\u00e9in believe that we need a plan and to benefit from the economic benefits to be had. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"R\u00e9ada Cronin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy R\u00e9ada Cronin  Cuirim f\u00e1ilte roimh an d\u00edosp\u00f3ireacht seo inniu.  Many myths exist about a united Ireland. I believe the biggest one is the alleged cost it will be to the Twenty-six Counties. Increasing amounts of research show that Irish unity would strengthen an all-island economy, creating more jobs, attracting investment and increasing tax revenue in addition to goodwill.  Let us imagine every county on this island working towards the same economic future. At present, the economy of six counties of our country is controlled by the British Government. The people making decisions about investment and opportunity answer to voters in London, Manchester and Brighton, not Belfast, Derry or Newry. Why would Tory, Labour or Reform MPs prioritise communities to which they have no electoral responsibility? A united Ireland will change that and unlock an all-island economy that would work for everyone who lives on this island. Every Irish county would finally have a government whose only priority is Ireland.  We only need look to German reunification as an example of how planned economic integration and investment within the EU can substantially improve economic conditions in the smaller jurisdiction involved in unification. While the economic output and living standards of the former East Germany have not caught up with the former West German development, by any standards they have improved dramatically.  The role of the EU would be even more central in the case of Irish reunification. It should be to the fore of the Irish Presidency in this term. We must remember that the Good Friday Agreement is an EU-endorsed treaty. It has already been made clear that a reunited Ireland would see the North automatically return to EU membership, creating enormous opportunities for growth across the entire island. This simple but important guarantee means, in economic terms, the potential difficulty faced by Scotland when planning its independence, which had to negotiate membership of the EU in the context of independence, does not apply to the Six Counties.  The subvention is also incessantly cited as a reason we in the South would not be able to \"afford\" the North. However, a recent study showed that the deficit transferred to the Six Counties is closer to \u00a31.5 billion per year. Pensions have also been mentioned. I always wonder why this was even cited as an issue because it is exactly what already happens to pension recipients in Spain, France, Ireland and wherever a retired British worker resides.  The truth is that even if the economic case was more challenging than it is, Irish unity would still be the right thing to do. It is said: t\u00edr gan teanga, is t\u00edr gan anam, but a country without a soul is only a vacuous place, and while partition was indeed a failure of our national soul, a failure of our spirit, and a failure to believe that all the people of this island deserve to share one future together, we can change that. A united Ireland is about more than balance sheets. It is about ending the injustice of partition, and finally allowing our country to become whole again. In doing the right thing, we also create a stronger economy and a better future for generations to come. Then it is not simply good economics, it is the fulfilment of our national potential.  When I came across to the Chamber today I walked through the hall and I looked at the Proclamation again. I was reminded of the aspiration of our heroes in 1916 to the unashamed \"happiness and prosperity of the whole nation\". We have that within our grasp now and we have to move forward. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cian O'Callaghan  I welcome this important discussion on the topic of Irish unity and its fiscal implications. It deserves analysis and fundamentally respect for the people, who will ultimately decide the future of this island. There are real challenges in any transition to unity but there are also very significant opportunities. The future of this island should not be reduced to a balance sheet. Fiscal implications are important and must be planned for. However, any future Border poll should focus primarily on the people of this island and the opportunity to build a shared home that works for everybody.  It is essential that we begin to plan and prepare now for transition. A great deal of excellent work has already been done. I want to mention some of the academic research that has been done. The ESRI has already been mentioned. In particular, I want to mention the work done by Fintan O'Toole and Sam McBride in their book, For and Against A United Ireland. It is a very accessible format which sets out some of the complexities and the opportunities of unification.  There is also very valuable work being done by the Analysing and Researching Ireland North and South, ARINS, project, led by the Royal Irish Academy and the University of Notre Dame. I also acknowledge the work done by Professor John Doyle and his colleagues in DCU and Ulster University who have provided detailed economic modelling that has made the fiscal implications tangible.  For years, we have heard that Northern Ireland receives a subvention of between \u00a310 billion and \u00a314 billion. Any suggestion that this bill would just be transferred to a united Ireland is reductive and fails to account for the economic opportunities of unification. Professor John Doyle's research provides a much clearer picture of the potential initial costs. It shows that when we strip out the UK-specific costs, such as national debt interest, defence spending, including on nuclear weapons, and the cost of a global diplomatic service and when we properly count Northern Ireland's tax take, the real figure that would transfer to a united Ireland is about \u00a31.5 billion or roughly \u20ac1.75 billion. That is a very different starting point. Professor Doyle and his colleagues' model then adds the costs of levelling up public services. It includes \u20ac1 billion per year in extra spending for at least a decade to improve health, education, welfare and infrastructure. It includes a gradual equalisation of public sector wages, starting at \u20ac152 million per year. It includes a phased transfer of pension liabilities, rising by about \u20ac115 million per year over 40 years. When we put all of that together, the year 1 cost of unity is about \u20ac3 billion. It is certainly not an insignificant figure, but it is less than the 1% combined modified GNI of a united Ireland. More importantly, the same modelling shows that a united Ireland could break even within a number years. By year ten, depending on growth, the model suggests that unification will generate between \u20ac2.9 billion and \u20ac6.7 billion in annual surplus.  Unification presents distinct challenges that need to be carefully planned for and managed. The analysis done by Professor Doyle shows that the cost of pensions would be unlikely to transfer to a united Ireland straight away. Following Brexit, the UK and Ireland signed a bilateral convention on social security in 2019. This confirmed that pension costs would be shared based on the ratio of years worked in each jurisdiction. Ireland should only take over the liabilities accrued after unity. While there should be no cliff edge, this transition must be thoroughly planned to protect pensioners.  The North has also experienced decades of underinvestment. Levelling up will require sustained funding but it will also unlock future potential and prosperity. The UK allocates almost \u00a31.6 billion in defence spending to Northern Ireland. Ireland spends less than that defending a much larger territory and has decades of underinvestment to catch up on. We need increased investment, particularly in systems and technologies, including sonar and air surveillance radar. Unification may also bring additional security challenges that will need to be planned for and funded appropriately. Even with these increases, we will not replicate the British model of defence spending.  These challenges should not blind us from the opportunities. Northern Ireland has underperformed economically for a century. It is the poorest region in the UK. Unification and the reintegration into the European Union present the people of the North with incredible economic opportunities. T\u00e1 s\u00e9 f\u00edor go bhfuil deis iontach againn. T\u00e1 d\u00fashl\u00e1in agus t\u00e1 riosca\u00ed ann, ach t\u00e1 go leor le gn\u00f3th\u00fa. N\u00edor cheart deifir a chur ar an aont\u00fa. N\u00edor cheart moill a chur air ach an oiread. Sin \u00e9 an f\u00e1th gur g\u00e1 d\u00fainn an comhr\u00e1 a thos\u00fa anois. Sin \u00e9 an f\u00e1th gur g\u00e1 d\u00fainn \u00e1ireamh a dh\u00e9anamh ar dhaoine agus \u00e9isteacht le tuairim\u00ed difri\u00fala.  Unification should never come down to simply a question of who pays. We should be asking what kind of future we want to build. We can build a future where prosperity is shared and communities and different traditions are respected. We need to begin planning for that future now. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  As this is my last speaking opportunity, I thank the Ceann Comhairle and everybody who sits in that Chair, and also the staff of the Oireachtas who make our jobs so possible and sometimes so pleasant. I thank the Government for facilitating this debate. Like others, I welcome the opportunity to discuss the fiscal implications of a united Ireland. This topic is probably the one that makes me feel most privileged to be a politician and a national representative at this moment in Ireland's history. The historic nature of these discussions should not be lost on any of us because it is such an opportunity. Over the next couple of decades as we discuss these things and see the evolution of the debate and the reality outside of the debate, we will have opportunities presented to us.  As many have said already this afternoon, one the ways that we best need to approach any discussions of the fiscal implications of a united Ireland is to reframe it away from cost and to opportunity, or at least balance better the discussions that we have around what a cost it might be to this jurisdiction to become one Ireland. We also need to look at the opportunities because they are many. It is not just the immediate economic opportunities that seem to be quite apparent in terms of two parts becoming greater than the sum of their parts in various of our economic sectors - I will get to a specific example of that in a moment - but it is the opportunity that is presented to us while we approach constitutional change on a broader basis. There are ways that we can see how our governance of this jurisdiction can be improved simply by the opportunities that will be presented by opening up constitutional change and the discussions that we are all going to have about how we govern ourselves right now and how we may govern an entire island of Ireland. That is a hugely important opportunity for us as a political force here in the Republic. We see it as an opportunity to promote social democracy as a governing methodology for a united Ireland. That is something that we will always be putting forward within this debate. It is also an opportunity for us to look at how we can improve the lives of everybody on this island, including all of the new communities that we now have within our population. That opportunity is something that is important.  The other word that is important to bring into any economic discussion and fiscal discussion around a united Ireland is \"holistic\" because, unfortunately at times, I see the Government looking at the economy as a discrete part of society and neglecting things that fall outside of economic discussion, economic imperatives, and policymaking. If we look at Brexit, for example, while I acknowledge the strong work of the Civil Service in the preparedness that it did for Brexit and appreciate that it was a positive thing, there was far too much focus on trade in Brexit discussions and Brexit preparedness. Unfortunately, there was not enough on rights and equality. That is something within my previous role that we did a lot work on by looking at how the rights and equality implications of Brexit were going to play out. Unfortunately, those are still not entirely clear. Although the Windsor Framework did look to enshrine that policy of no diminution of rights and the non-divergence of rights on either side of the Border, that has not been clear in how it is going to play out. Unfortunately, that is where we might see issues around stability and peace coming under threat in the coming years. Looking at the economy through the lens of rights and equality is a helpful way to start talking about the fiscal implications of a united Ireland.  These figures that we talk about on a large scale have to be located in the lives of people, in particular those who live on the Border and those 30,000 who cross the Border daily. What is going to be different for their lives in a united Ireland? What is going to be different for the lives of everybody on this island?  I want to raise one specific sector. Within my portfolio, the culture sector is a good example of where we could see a much better offering in the joining together of the two economic activities. For example, we have a very vibrant production sector for film and television. It is an increasingly growing sector in Northern Ireland, with a lot of investment going into it at the moment. A total of \u00a372 million is being invested in Studio Ulster, which is a recently established virtual production facility. Surely there is an economic loss in how there are very few cross-Border offerings. There are very few ways in which both of those sectors work together to attract investment to the country. That is an example of where we can see the immediate economic benefit of working together.  I wish to finish in the words of one of those productions. In the final episode, Erin from \"Derry Girls\" said:  No matter how scary it is, we have to move on, and we have to grow up because things ... well, they might just change for the better. So we have to be brave. And if our dreams get broken along the way ... we have to make new ones from the pieces. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin Hayes","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin Hayes  As this is my final time speaking, I thank the Ceann Comhairle and all of the staff in the Oireachtas, including the ushers in particular who take such good care of us and everybody who makes this place work so well, for all that they have done. I hope that they get a good and well-deserved break.  It is possible, perhaps even hopeful, in my lifetime that we will see a united Ireland and the end of partition on this island. I sincerely hope that we do in a way that benefits all people of all communities, traditions and backgrounds.  We have a long way to go to achieve that vision and to achieve the vision of a republic of equals that we have not achieved here in Ireland. It is worthy that one of the starting points of that discussion will be the fiscal make-up of a united Ireland. In a united Ireland, the Six Counties' economic future should be a prosperous one, and in that it has to be properly supported and transformed. I hope we might be able to extend the economic model of the Republic in such a way that our prosperity is shared, with good jobs in multinationals and SMEs, a strong and balanced regional industrial strategy for the 21st century and entrepreneurial supports that underpin a strong indigenous economy. Ireland will have to lead the way in this, as it has not happened under either a Westminster Government or many Northern Ireland Executives. Financial arrangements will have to be agreed, as will trans-Border tax arrangements. Supply chains will have to be reimagined. In that vision, we will have to give people in the Twenty-six Counties and in the six the confidence that a united Ireland will work for all against poverty, unemployment and deprivation, and that we will challenge these scourges that are felt regardless of community or background, for poverty has no religion, unemployment no flag and exclusion no anthem.  The social protection system will have to play a key role in this and will have to lead with principle. It seems only proper that this new united social protection system would do the following from a principled way: establish a shared prosperity and proper social protection supports to underpin a properly functioning economy and society; ensure that no individual is worse off in a united Ireland than they were under partition; and ensure that no individual in identical socio-economic circumstances is treated substantively differently. It would stand to reason then that, particularly in respect of social insurance funds and pension schemes for individuals who contributed to such schemes during their working lives, these contributions would, at the vest least, be recognised in a transitional financial arrangement between Ireland and Britain.  There are challenges in these principles, challenges of politics and reconciliation most of all, but there are practical considerations as well. The UK's universal credit system has had very mixed results, at best, and has resulted in many receiving smaller social protection payments than they would receive in the Republic, sometimes by as must as 20% to 30%. Of course, the UK provides a universal healthcare system and we do not, and has other social supports, but it should not be lost on us that the challenge of merging these systems in a way that sustains livelihoods and the social floor through which no one should fall is a significant one. While the project of integrating these systems will be significant, it is imperative that we take the opportunities to create a better life for all, North and South, where people do not just survive but are given the means to thrive and contribute, and where a system of public services supports that.  The work on that must begin now and I welcome any person who shares this vision of an island where every person is valued not just as an economic unit, but with a socially inclusive place for each person. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Malcolm Byrne  I welcome this debate. As I indicated during the discussions on Irish unity last week, we should always be open to discussing any possibilities for new constitutional arrangements or co-operation on this island or between these islands. At all stages, it is critical that the discussion be evidence based, fully transparent and honest. It cannot just be a discussion purely about the economy. It has to be about society more generally.  As the T\u00e1naiste indicated at the start, what is important at all times during our discussion on these issues is that we look to uphold the principles of the Good Friday Agreement, arguably the real sign that politics does work. There is always the challenge that, when romantic idealism meets economic realism, there can be quite a shock. A lot of what we have been talking about here are the issues of fiscal transfers and the sums of money involved, but we need to have broader discussions. There are different economic models operating on both sides of the Border. I am particularly glad to be hearing some members of the Opposition praising so strongly the strength of the economy here in the South, which we do not always hear. When we talk about the approach to the economy that will operate in future on this island, particularly in terms of young people who are looking at what the constitutional arrangements will be, the economic model we will offer will be critical.  I said last week that German reunification was quite different because, at that time, there was much more of a desire among everybody in Germany to reunify. According to the evidence, the cost of unifying both sides since 1990 is estimated to have been about \u20ac2 trillion, yet we still have a situation where GDP per capita in east Germany is just 66% of that in the west. As I said, I do not want to concentrate too much on the figures, and the critical issues that were there as that economy grew and emerged were around social cohesion, cultural recognition and acceptance of institutional legitimacy. Those debates also have to be part of the discussion around the economy.  There are crucial differences in our economies. For instance, 15% of the entire workforce here in the South is employed in the public sector while the figure in the North is 30%. That is a quite different economic model and it is something we need to look at. I agree with Deputy Farrell when she says that what we have to consider is how this is about workers, young people and the opportunities we will present to them. There are good examples of work that is being done. I cite Tourism Ireland, for example, for its work to market the island of Ireland quite successfully. In terms of practical measures, we could increase its budget to allow it to do more of that. When tourists come, they travel all over the island and do not tend to see the Border. There is a lot of good work being done in the shared island unit. I agree with Deputy Gibney when she talked about some of the cultural co-operation that was needed.  Critical to the development of any economy is human capital and I am very proud about the fact that, in the South, we have one of the highest rates of participation in further and higher education. I commend the Minister of State, Deputy Harkin, on her leadership in expanding the apprenticeship offerings. However, the way in which the Executive in the North operates sees an inhibitory cap on the number of university places, which contributes to a brain drain from the North. We have long seen a tradition, particularly among those from unionist communities, of going to university, particularly in Scotland, and not returning. We have to look at how we invest in human capital well into the future. That is why some of the research initiatives under the shared island unit have been important.  When we talk about economics, it is about the economic vision we need to present in this country. For me and for young people on both sides of the Border, the vision has to be one of investing in education and research, continuing to be a pro-trade island, which is essential for the island, and being at the centre of the European Union. We need to talk about that far more. Brexit robbed people, not just in the North, but particularly young people, of so many opportunities. I have always been very proud of, and the parties on this side of the House have been consistent in our support of, the European Union and the opportunities it has presented for this island but the greatest advocate for how the European Union has been able to change this island was John Hume, who saw the potential of the EU not just to allow the island to grow economically, but also socially. The SDLP and the Alliance Party have been consistent in their support for the EU, but Sinn F\u00e9in needs to be much more clear. It needs to move away from that Eurocritical position it had. Sinn F\u00e9in was the only party that put up posters after the Brexit referendum. While I appreciate that she is not present, please bear in mind that, as recently as 2021, Mary Lou McDonald was sharing a platform with Nigel Farage about their vision for the European Union. In terms of our economic opportunities, we have to be right at the heart of the European Union.  I noticed that Deputy Bennett quoted Parnell. I was glad, as he would be a constituent of mine if he was alive today. One thing that needs to be remembered about Parnell is that he was pro business and pro trade.  Parnell owned quarries near Arklow, he had sawmills and he was involved in gold prospecting. He saw the economic potential of this island.  The other message we need to send out if we are to grow this economy is that we are pro-trade. Free and fair trade right throughout history is the greatest example of providing people with employment opportunities and lifting people out of poverty. One of the best examples of this is our being able to trade with Canada. We know the success of this relationship here in the South but Canada is Northern Ireland's fourth largest global export market after Ireland, the US and Germany in engineering, manufacturing, financial services and insurance. A message going out that is saying we are not going to support trade deals with Canada is not in the best interest of the young people of Northern Ireland.  I welcome this debate but it has to be grounded in realism. The difference is that we have to set out that the vision we have will be at the centre of the European Union and that it will be one of a trading nation working together. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Currie","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Emer Currie  I wish to begin by recognising the substantial work undertaken by the Government-led shared island initiative, the ESRI, academics and opinion leaders. Without that work, we simply could not have a debate of this quality.  For anyone who genuinely wants to prepare for a united Ireland, a unified Ireland or a new and agreed Ireland - whatever terminology they prefer - this is the opportunity to move beyond rhetoric and into practical realities. People will not simply vote on history and identity; they will also weigh up the economic proposition before them, especially those we need to win a referendum.  Much of the economic debate has, understandably, focused on two questions. The first is harmonisation and differences in taxation, social welfare, healthcare, education, pensions and public services, which would have to be reconciled. The second is the fiscal transfer from Britain, what replaces that subvention and what this could mean for our public finances. Whether you agree more with Professors FitzGerald, Morganroth or Doyle, these debates are necessary. They quantify the challenge and help define the scale of decisions that would have to be made. Occasionally, we also discuss the one-off costs of the transition itself - the administrative, legal and institutional costs of constitutional change.  However, there is another side to this wider debate that receives far less attention, and that is the opportunity to build the strongest possible all-island economy; a market of more than 7 million people with strong ties to the UK, EU and international markets. This means designing this island for economic success, with stronger regional balance, strategic investment in infrastructure, better connectivity and full cross-Border growth, unlocking the potential of an integrated north-west region as one of our greatest opportunities for growth. It means recognising the economic synergies that exist across healthcare, education, transport and infrastructure, when they are planned on an all-island basis.  It is incredibly frustrating that so much of the wider debate presents Northern Ireland as a fiscal liability rather than for its economic potential. I also find it deeply frustrating that Northern Ireland has missed out on so many opportunities compared to the South. Many of the economic gaps that will likely be highlighted in the wider debate as barriers to unification - productivity, earnings, disposable income, tax revenue and educational attainment - are not as inevitable as some would like us to believe. Research suggests the scale of those gaps are shaped by policy choices, which can be changed.  The most striking report I read was Northern Ireland Productivity 2040, which identified areas where policy can make a difference, such as business performance, skills, institutions, health and well-being and investment in infrastructure. Most importantly, it argues these challenges are interconnected and require joined-up Government stable institutions and long-term decision-making.  As I said last week, Brexit is not good for anybody. However, Northern Ireland has outperformed many UK regions since Brexit, helped by the competitive advantage created through dual access to the UK and EU goods markets under the Windsor Framework. More recent research suggests the productivity gap is narrowing. So much more could be done to avail of the opportunities and investment coming from dual market access. Economic outcomes are not fixed; policy matters and leadership matters.  People in Northern Ireland have the same ambition, ability and entrepreneurial spirit as anyone anywhere else on this island. If we are serious about building a vision for a new and agreed Ireland, then prioritising the closure of economic gaps should be every bit as important as debating the need for preparedness and deadlines. If you believe in a united Ireland, then making Northern Ireland more prosperous, a better place to live and a more attractive proposition for the people who are undecided about how they would vote in this referendum should not be a secondary objective; it should be central to achieving a united Ireland.  I wish to conclude by recalling that great economist of war, peace and reconstruction, J.M. Keynes, who said, \"anything we can actually do, we can afford.\" He argued that national ambition should never be constrained by money. Yes, we need to work hard to quantify the costs of a united Ireland. The people who will ultimately decide on whether to unify deserve and demand that detail but cost must never be a barrier to opportunity or a break on ambition. I appeal to my colleagues again today, as I did last week, that we all must work together. Responsibility does not only lie with the Government of Ireland but also with anyone in a position of leadership to bring us closer to that vision we all want. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Thomas Gould  I welcome the debate today. Ireland has a proud history and tradition of myths and legends, from C\u00fa Chulainn to T\u00edr na n\u00d3g to the Children of L\u00edr, which have passed down through the generations. However, the latest myth and legend some people are telling is far more damaging. There are people who claim that we cannot afford Irish unity. They are using false data and made-up numbers to try to stop the unity of our Thirty-two Counties, saying it will cost billions upon billions. John FitzGerald wrote a paper on how Irish unity could cost \u20ac20 billion. I am not an economist but when I want to understand something, I go to experts like Professor John Doyle, who said the figures in that report were not just the worst case scenario but were also completely wrong. Professor Seamus McGuinness of the ESRI clearly stated that FitzGerald's hypotheses were based on a scenario that could never happen.  Do you know what that reminds me of? For years, when we talked about climate change, climate change deniers were rolled out to give their opinions, even though all the science was against them. Now, we have that happening here, where we know the data and the positive implications Irish unity could have but we are allowing false data to come in to skew the conversation. While I welcome the T\u00e1naiste's comments earlier, he referenced that \u20ac20 billion at least twice in his contribution. We cannot allow false data and false information. The debate has to be honest and open but it also has to be fact- and data-based.  The truth is the Six Counties have been economically trapped and cannot reach their full potential under Britain. If these economies were to grow like Cork and Galway, they would be a net positive financial impact on Irish unity.  I hope the next generation of Irish children are raised on mythology of the salmon of knowledge and Fionn Mac Cumhail's trickery. I also hope they are not fed lies and misinformation. We cannot afford this to happen to our Ireland. We must submit that the British rule in the Six Counties has been negative on the people on the whole island of Ireland.  My brothers and sisters in the North who are listening today and are probably gutted after the vote in this Chamber last week are looking for their dreams and the vision of a united Ireland. I stand here in the shadow of Cork men and women who fought and died for Irish freedom. I think today of Mary MacSwiney, who went from her brother's deathbed to this D\u00e1il. She was the true embodiment of a rebel. When we talk about the cost of Irish unity, Mary MacSwiney also spoke about the cost of Irish freedom in the D\u00e1il. She said:  ...when talking with my dying brother I asked him, was it worth the cost, and we decided it was, and one of the last things he ever said to me was, \"Thank God there will be no more compromise now\".  That was Terence MacSwiney, Lord Mayor of Cork, who died on hunger strike in Brixton Prison and was an Irish republican who believed in unity and uniting the whole island of Ireland.  The cost of Irish unity is unclear but we cannot use cost as a reason to abandon our brothers and sisters in the Six Counties. The difference that Irish unity could make is much more tangible for them now. Ireland unfree shall never be at peace. I want to send a message to all of those young people. The cost of unity is the cost of their future. It is the cost of the life they could build here. It is the cost of a border that divides this land, but our peoples will never be divided. Across hundreds of kilometres, across thousands of villages and towns, across mountains and motorways from Cork to Coleraine, we stand united. Onwards to the republic. Cost should never be put in front of Irish unity. We must debate it and be honest but, at the end of the day, it is important that all of us deliver the Irish unity that was in the Proclamation and that the people of Ireland want and deserve. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ged Nash  I note Deputy Gould's emotive and emotional remarks and his tour of recent Irish history, but the focus of this debate and this society need to be on the present and on preparing for the future. I mean it most sincerely that there is an onus on us and a responsibility on all of us who believe that uniting Ireland is the best way in which we can serve the material interests of our people to ditch the sloganeering, be less reliant on the four green fieldisms and to have less of a focus on what I might describe as the Kneecapification of Irish history and to focus on a future in which we can all believe. We should also focus on the ways in which we can persuade those who do not agree with us to join us on that journey, because accommodations will need to be reached. Processes will need to be put in place by those of us who are serious about uniting this country, outside of the romantic vision of what our forefathers fought for and all of the rest of it. That work has to happen now. We have to prepare for it and we have to do it. Not only will it have to be led by Government, it will have to be supported by the Opposition as well, because if we cannot agree in this House on the way forward in a consensual fashion, how are we going to persuade those who disagree with us and have a right to disagree with us? That right to disagree with us is enshrined in the Good Friday Agreement, which was agreed with the consent of all of the people, North and South, so we know the structure that is in place.  In recent years, I have detected a timidity at government level about how we advance the objectives that I want to see emerge and which are facilitated and catered for in the Good Friday Agreement on how we approach that challenge, ambition and aspiration that I validly have and on which, of course, many on this island disagree with us. Accommodations will have to be reached with those who disagree with us, and we need to be honest and upfront about that. We also need to be prepared to say what those accommodations look like and how we can make them if it really is our objective to arrive at what I, Deputy Currie and others describe as a new Ireland, a different Ireland. It is not going to be the same and there will be accommodations that may be uncomfortable for some of us, but they will have to be arrived at. There will be fiscal and financial implications for this State in that transition. There is an obligation on us, insofar as we can, to properly interrogate and consider those implications and to be upfront about them.  While I do not want to reach too far back in Irish history, it is important that we have a considered look at the experience of Ireland in the past 30 years. The story has been one of significant economic and social divergence. It is an unpopular thing to say, and it is a contested space, but I hear lots of people, especially from Fianna F\u00e1il, talking about how the transformation of the economy in the Republic of Ireland was down to the Good Friday Agreement in some way. That is a contested space. The transformation of the Irish economy was under way from the early 1990s. Did the Good Friday Agreement do it any harm? No, it did not, but let us not exaggerate its impact on the Irish economy. It is good and it had an impact, but was there a causal relationship? I am not so sure. The jury is out on that. However, is the Good Friday Agreement a good thing and good for our economy? Of course, it is. Did the guns fall silent in the North? Yes, they did, and that is a good thing and it allowed the economy in the North to develop, albeit at a different rate to our own. There are features of the economy in the North that need to be addressed and need our support and the support of the UK to be addressed.  With the notable exception of the crash years and the great recession, the story of the economy in the Republic of Ireland has been one of consistent growth, economic development and more or less full employment for a considerable period. However, it is a rich country that has a problem understanding that it is now sustainably rich. Those of us in opposition will, of course, say that this country needs to do better, and it can. Those problems are not problems of money and resources any more; they are problems to do with ideology, philosophy and different interpretations on how our economy should be run and how public services should be invested in. They are not challenges that cannot be overcome. They can be overcome, and, of course, I will say that they can be overcome if different political decisions are taken, but politics is capable of fixing this country.  I am often kind of alarmed, and I say this with the greatest of respect to my friends and colleagues in Sinn F\u00e9in, that there is a degree of partitionism in the way in which that party approaches this question. On the one hand, it is legitimate for an Opposition party to critique the economic model day in, day out. I do it myself all of the time, and we all know that Ireland can do better. However, at the same time, is that kind of critique helping to persuade those whom we need to persuade into a new Ireland? I am not so sure that it is. The arguments are different on both sides of the Border, and I make that point with the greatest of respect. That is perhaps a challenge for a party that is organised on both sides of the Border, and I understand that.  As we know, the North has deep, systemic problems. It is still a deeply divided region and polity and, while we have peace, we do not have reconciliation. There are those who are far too invested in fighting the war by other means, politically, and that is continuing to divide that society. Call me old-fashioned, but I cling to the idea that every parent wants what is best for their children. Every grandparent wants what is best for their grandchildren. That includes continuing the development of the economy, providing good jobs and educational opportunities and so on.  The more we develop this State and resolve its problems, and the problems are manifold, the better chance we have of persuading those who do not agree with us at the moment to join us on this journey and persuading them of the merits of it. As I say, most people want what is best for their children, regardless of what their political affiliations might be, and those affiliations, by the way, need to be accommodated in the new Ireland. We are not good at describing what those accommodations will be or what that relationship with the UK will be, whether economically, socially, politically, culturally or otherwise. It is a relationship that will have to be maintained. It will look very different as we approach a new Ireland.  When looking at our preparedness, or lack thereof, Brexit is the single biggest warning from our recent history. We could very well end up with Nigel Farage having the keys of No. 10 and the prospect of a united Ireland by some kind of default coming down the tracks much quicker than we thought. We are not prepared. Nigel Farage and Reform UK could not give a monkey\u2019s toss about what some would describe as the Celtic fringe of these islands, and that is the reality. They do not understand history. They have not thought about it. They have not thought about the implications of their little Englander mentality. Brexit shows us the vulnerability and the risks of not being prepared, of not considering the impact of referendums, not considering what the question is, not considering transitional arrangements and costs and so on. That needs to be properly thought out but, to date, it has not been.  Of course, as others have said, this is a very contested space. We have had research carried out by the IIEA that says one thing, research carried out by Professor Doyle that says another thing, and the ESRI saying something entirely different. We have solid, important work being carried out on an ongoing basis by, for example, ARINS, and that work is socialised by The Irish Times , which gives it a platform to try to disseminate that really important information to be popularly consumed and interrogated. That is very important. I disagree with the leader of Sinn F\u00e9in, Deputy Mary Lou McDonald - I think Michelle O'Neill also said it some years ago - that this is something that is being discussed at kitchen tables across the country. I do not believe it is. However, it should be, and I hope it will be. We need more detail because people will naturally ask what the implications are for them.  Deputy Malcolm Byrne referred to the experience of uniting Germany. That was a very different prospect when the vast majority, if not all, of East German citizens wanted to become part of a united German polity. As we know, that is not the case on this island. We need to be careful about how we approach that.  The economic argument that we can make on this part of the island is a strong one, and should continue to be a strong one. In his opening contribution, the T\u00e1naiste said that we need to look at both sides of the ledger when it comes to the financial and fiscal implications of a united Ireland. He is absolutely right. Those of us who represent constituencies like Louth see this every day, and my colleague, Deputy \u00d3 Murch\u00fa, will undoubtedly speak about this as well. The impact of partition on places like Louth has been profound, but the impact of peace has been profound as well. We see this in practical terms, day in, day out, in the relationships developing between businesses on both sides of what is now, thankfully, a permeable and invisible border. These are relationships that were always there, but they were damaged by partition. Chambers of commerce are working together closely in Drogheda, Dundalk and Newry. Local authorities are working closely in Louth, Newry, Mourne and so on. We have seen the development of the Narrow Water Bridge, which will open shortly - I walked by it only two or three weeks ago. That is a manifestation of what is possible. There is the development of the Enterprise network linking Dublin, Drogheda and Dundalk with Newry, Portadown, Belfast and so on. The frequency of those services is making a real impact. We know, for example, that the Dundalk Institute of Technology will transition to university status thanks to its relationship with Queen\u2019s University. In real life, in everyday terms, these relationships are forming anyway because they make sense, and they are continuing to form.  At the invitation of SDLP colleagues, I spoke at a meeting in Warrenpoint recently about the ways in which we can better develop cross-border health services. There are huge opportunities in the context of heart and stroke services, cancer services and so on, but those opportunities are not being developed in the way we or our constituents would like. There are barriers still, for a host of different reasons. There are obvious opportunities in a united Ireland on that side of the ledger. Yes, there will be costs, but there are opportunities in a remodelled economy. For example, a new Ireland would obtain a very different culture in the manufacturing space than we have had traditionally in some parts of this country, given the experience in Belfast and the concentration of some important industries in Belfast, Derry and elsewhere. There are economies of scale that we could develop for significant infrastructure development and, for example, we hope that the A5 would materialise in a way that we would like.  We have a major problem in this country with scaling up indigenous enterprises and ensuring that Irish companies can go global from here. I will share with the House one anecdote. During my spell from 2014 to 2016 as Minister of State with responsibility for enterprise, we tried to host a joint Enterprise Ireland-InterTradeIreland trade mission in the United Arab Emirates for a very significant health med-tech initiative. InterTradeIreland was on board and Enterprise Ireland was on board, but that exercise was being resisted by my counterpart at the time in the northern Executive, Arlene Foster. These are the challenges that we have.  That is why I circle back to this point. I cling to the idea that, surely, because of our economic performance, because of the potential of this part of the island and what we have done at a top line over the last few years, we can persuade people that unionist, loyalist and dissenter can do better in a new Ireland - that jobs will be better, that businesses can do better and that there will be a material difference to the lives of everybody. It is on that basis that we have to proceed. We need to be serious about that, and we need to be serious about the fiscal implications. While we are looking at the finances, we need to look at the costs but also the opportunities. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cormac Devlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cormac-Devlin.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cormac-Devlin.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cormac Devlin  I welcome the debate and the contributions from all Members of the House, as well as the varying views. As Cathaoirleach of the Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement, I believe this is exactly the type of debate and discussion that we should be having in this House. The agreement envisages that the people of this island may one day be asked to decide on their constitutional future. It is right that we prepare for that question seriously, honestly and well in advance. The Good Friday Agreement rests on the principle of consent. Any change to the constitutional status of Northern Ireland can only happen with the agreement of a majority of its people. That principle is settled. Our task is to make sure that if people are asked to decide, they can decide with full information.  That brings me to the fiscal implications. Members will have noticed that the estimates vary enormously. In 2025, researchers at Dublin City University and Ulster University published the first peer-reviewed study of the cost of unity over its first ten years. They put the cost in year one at approximately \u20ac3 billion. They found the deficit would decline gradually and end within approximately five to nine years, depending on growth. The Institute of International and European Affairs reached a very different conclusion in 2024. Professor John FitzGerald and Professor Edgar Morgenroth estimated a basic cost of close to \u20ac11 billion a year. If wages, welfare and pensions in the North were raised immediately to southern levels, their figure rose above \u20ac20 billion. Clearly, there is a very considerable gap between the two studies. The studies make different assumptions about pensions and the UK national debt, and very different assumptions about how quickly the Northern economy could grow and converge with our own.  That is the honest position. The true scale of the cost is yet unknown.  Anyone who claims certainty on the figure is not being straight with anybody. It would be a mistake for any of us in this House to pick the study that suits our argument and set the rest aside.  Some speakers have suggested that the money is not the first consideration, and I agree. Identity, belonging and reconciliation are matters of the heart as much as the national balance sheet. Voters from all traditions, however, will want to know where they stand before they go to the polls. That is not crude accounting; that is respect for the electorate. We should certainly do what we can now, and I am suggesting three things.  First, we should build an evidence base. Much reference has been made today to the shared island unit in the Department of the Taoiseach, which has published extensive research on two economies, two labour markets, education, health and other areas.  The Department of Finance's 2024 paper Shared Island, Shared Economy sets out the facts plainly. Productivity in Northern Ireland is in line with that in our Border and midlands regions, well behind the economy as a whole. Public sector employment accounts for 33% of jobs in the North, against a much lower figure here. The North has a far higher share of people with no formal qualifications, and there are gaps in opportunities any future arrangement would have to address. There are also gaps that we can start closing now through greater co-operation and engagement.  Second, we should build prosperity in the meantime. The Government has announced \u20ac377 million in new shared island investment across 12 cross-Border projects. Some \u20ac193 million will upgrade the Dublin\u2013Belfast\u2013Derry rail lines between 2027 and 2030. A further \u20ac35 million will continue the hourly Dublin\u2013Belfast Enterprise train service. That service doubled rail connectivity between our two largest cities and grew passenger numbers by 40% in its first year. There is also \u20ac33 million for a new water quality programme for Lough Neagh, \u20ac30 million to complete the Ulster Canal, and \u20ac13.5 million for early learning and childcare, including 1,000 upskilling places for early years educators. That is what practical co-operation looks like. It benefits communities North and South today, irrespective of the constitutional future people choose tomorrow. It is important that we recognise the success of that co-operation today.  The third point is that we must keep asking the right questions. That is very important regarding pensions, debt, transition arrangements and the shape of any agreement with the UK. The assumptions that drive every estimate deserve rigorous independent scrutiny long before any referendum is called. I ask the Taoiseach and, indeed, the Minister for Finance to continue and expand the shared island research programme so the fiscal questions raised in this House today are answered with evidence rather than assertion.  The unity of the Irish people, achieved by consent and through reconciliation, is a founding aspiration of my party. We pursue it by building trust, deepening co-operation and delivering for communities on both sides of the Border. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Louise O'Reilly  I welcome this debate this afternoon and am happy to be able to make a small contribution to it. I grew up in a Border town. I ended up in that town because my father was a trade union organiser who represented workers on both sides of the Border for a long number of years and, in fact, went on to be based in the North for a long time. At that time, we knew, and it is very apparent now, that the Border was a barrier to workers becoming organised. Partition has always served, and will always serve, the interests of elites and never ordinary people because it is ordinary people who have always had to pay the price of partition. When we talk about the fiscal implications, we need to see the advantages and discuss the advantages of ending partition.  I am fortunate enough to represent a constituency that is very firmly in the Dublin\u2013Belfast economic corridor. Before partition, as we know, Belfast was a thriving industrial powerhouse. Partition put a lid on the potential of that city to grow and flourish. That potential needs to be unlocked even further for the benefit of our whole island. Likewise, cities like Derry must be allowed to reach their full potential, unhindered by the constraints of partition.  The Border is expensive. London does not care much for the North. When we hear the new Prime Minister talk about devolution, he very rarely, if ever, mentions the North because the North and the people in it have always been little more than an afterthought to the London establishment. When we talk about Irish unity, we should frame that discussion as one about potential for growth, the potential for all-Ireland working and all-Ireland business. Between Belfast and Dublin, there are five universities, numerous colleges of further education and training, and businesses that are ready to scale up.  The Dublin\u2013Belfast economic corridor is 100 miles long and home to one third of the island's population. While there is a lot happening in terms of cross-Border working, there could be a lot more done. The implications of increasing this activity are absolutely positive. Growth, jobs, research and innovation all can and should be achieved within one jurisdiction.  As the debate on Irish unity advances, and it is advancing despite what some of the people opposite would like to happen, we need to frame that discussion in a positive way. We need to look clearly for those opportunities while acknowledging the challenges. We are not blind to the challenges. We know there are challenges but we also know that every single one of them represents a reason to end partition. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  I thank the Ceann Comhairle for all the flexibility she allows in this Chamber, and hopefully that will continue as we speak.  I welcome an awful lot of what Deputy Devlin said. I have often come in here and welcomed the work of the shared island unit, whether we were talking about the Narrow Water bridge or research on educational attainment and differentiation. That is all worthwhile. Every time I come in and have an interaction here, it is generally with Deputy Devlin's leader, the Taoiseach, Deputy Miche\u00e1l Martin. He states explicitly that the shared island unit will not go anywhere next nor near questions on research or anything else as regards constitutional change on the island. It was hardly a shock to me and many others that he decided that the simplicity that was asked for by Sinn F\u00e9in last week, such that we would consider preparations for Irish unity, was not acceptable. Most people would see this as a possibility, even those who do not necessarily like the idea. Most politicians would say there is sense to planning. That is all we were looking for.  I welcome the debate to consider the fiscal realities and the implications of Irish unity. I was at an IBEC meeting earlier and one of the first things stated, following a question from Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh, related to an issue I have raised here many times, namely the implications for those working remotely cross-Border and the fact that, because of the tax systems that need to be created, it just does not work for employers or employees. We have a number of issues like that, including dealing with the common travel area and the impact on workers who cannot just travel from North to South at this point in time. We need to deal with those sorts of issues. However, we must be clear. Reference was made to the difference between Professor John FitzGerald's research and Professor John Doyle's. Obviously, we come down far more in favour of Professor Doyle's. In fairness, he dealt with the issue of pensions, which the Deputy spoke of. However, the fact is that we need to ensure this State does preparatory work on making these comparisons. Only the State can do it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  I call Deputy Brian Stanley. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  It is not about external researchers; it is about getting this State to do it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  When Deputy \u00d3 Murch\u00fa flatters me, I should be very worried. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  For me, it will always be about delivering the Republic. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Deputy Stanley is on his feet. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  Once again, I thank the Ceann Comhairle for her great flexibility and decency. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Stanley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Brian Stanley  The debate today is hugely important. It is 29 years since the Good Friday Agreement and this is my 16th year in this House. I have been waiting each year patiently, hoping this debate would happen. I particularly welcome the constructive approach. I listened to every word the T\u00e1naiste said. While I would disagree with him on many things here at different times, I believe he approached the matter very constructively. His statements were very constructive and will contribute greatly. I hope this is the beginning of moving on the process.  The big argument of those who still support partition and have a partitionist mentality is that we cannot afford a united Ireland. As a left republican, I put the case that we cannot afford not to have national reunification. Various claims have been made by economists, some highlighting the economic logic of reunification and others exaggerating the cost, with the latter done mainly by ignoring the fundamental issues and facts.  As an example of that, they ignored the economic damage caused by partition, particularly in Border areas. The previous speaker referred to the IBEC meeting this morning, which I was happy to attend. Its representatives gave us the example that firms in the Border region are now reluctant to hire workers from the other jurisdiction due to the difficulties with Revenue and tax compliance, etc. That is a real issue that IBEC is highlighting. That is just one more issue that is popping up.  Those who still argue for partition ignore the fact that in a reunified 32-county state, the pension liabilities of those workers in the Six Counties who accrued pension entitlements by paying into the British national insurance system and the British exchequer or employment pensions would receive that portion of their pension liability. It would not fall to a new government of Ireland but, rather, to the British exchequer into which they paid.  Currently, taxpayers in the North contribute to the cost of the British royal family. The relevant figure when last I looked was \u20ac137 million. I think that was the figure for last year. There is also the cost of Britain's massive diplomatic mission and its embassies across the world, not to mention its occupation of the Falkland Islands, Gibraltar and many other places. The cost is \u20ac2.6 billion for the diplomatic mission alone. There is also MI6 and the massive military machine and capacity, including the army, the navy and the Royal Air Force. I saw a figure of \u20ac60.2 billion for 2025 and 2026. That amount is due to rise sharply to meet its increased military capabilities. Proportionate or not, all of that is paid for by residents of the Six Counties. Taxpayers in the Six Counties have to carry part of the burden of Britain's ever-increasing national debt.  Of course, the fundamental points cannot be ignored. One of the key points is that Britain no longer has the benefits of empire. Its coal industry is gone. Revenue from North Sea oil has all but dried up. Britain's manufacturing base has gone south, including car-making. Those jobs have gone to the Third World and China. Those fundamentals cannot be ignored. Are supporters of partition really saying that we can continue on this small island with 14 different departments in each jurisdiction working back to back, often in competition with each other? Are they saying that having Twenty-six Counties in the EU and Six Counties out of it makes economic sense? Are they saying that having two revenue systems and two separate currencies on this small island of 7.3 million people is logical? The fact is that we need an all-Ireland economy that gives us economies of scale both to improve exports and enlarge the whole market. We need a single currency and a single revenue system that will benefit the Thirty-two Counties. Having the whole country in the European Union, which is not the case as a consequence of Brexit, would be of obvious benefit.  We need the North-South interconnector. We should drop all opposition to it. That needs to be built. Government departments working with singular focus in all areas, right across government, would bring efficiencies to public services.  Along with the strong economic case for reunification, there is also the political and social case, with opinion polls now showing an ever-increasing number of people in favour of reunification. There is an onus on the Government to begin planning and preparation work for reunification. There is no reason to delay this any further. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Roderic O'Gorman  It has been useful to have this series of debates about the possibility of unification and its implications for all parts of the island in the context of the discussion and debate of the Sinn F\u00e9in Green Paper last week and the debate we are having now. These dialogues are important as they allow us to discuss the real opportunities that unification can create. They allow us to also be honest about the challenges that will emerge from unification and to be realistic about the significant political distance that still has to be travelled before this becomes an immediate political question.  As a party that organises on an-all island basis, the Green Party is acutely aware of the economic and social challenges faced by the population of Northern Ireland. These challenges are magnified by the continued failure of the current political institutions in Northern Ireland to operate for the best interests of the people rather than achieving best political advantage for the parties.  We have to be conscious of the major capital investment that will be needed in a united Ireland to improve infrastructure across Northern Ireland. The region has lagged behind in infrastructure and development. We must recognise that a part of that was because a significant portion of the capital investment in Northern Ireland was purely on security infrastructure and not on the long-term infrastructural needs of the population. The approach to capital investment has to be supercharged.  A number of Deputies, particularly on the Government side, mentioned the shared island unit and the shared island fund. They absolutely have been important. Some boutique projects have been partly funded by the State and that is certainly something I welcome. We must recognise that those are just initial forays and are not of the scale that is needed. That scale remains huge.  Just one area where that is highlighted is the all-Ireland rail review, which was published approximately two years ago. That review shows the scale of investment needed in just one area. However, it also demonstrates the benefits that could emerge on an all-island basis if its recommendations were to be implemented.  I welcome the recent public publication of the Renewable Electricity Generation Bill by the economy minister in the Executive. If it is enacted and implemented, it will allow more households in Northern Ireland to enjoy the benefit of cheaper renewable energy and also help the region to move towards achieving its emission reduction targets.  Infrastructural investment is also much needed in the context of housing. Some 32,000 households are currently experiencing homelessness in Northern Ireland. The housing crisis there has been exacerbated by the failures of the Executive to reach social housing targets and by too regular cuts in its housing budget.  Just as there is a major question regarding capital investment, a significant increase in current investment will be needed to deal with the many endemic social challenges that would be faced in the context of a united Ireland. Rates of poverty across Northern Ireland are significantly higher than the rates here, and that has resulting impacts on life expectancy and physical and mental health.  We know that Northern Ireland has not kept pace with the level of investment in education and skills that we have witnessed in the Republic. This has led to a significant divergence in skills and has left Northern Ireland in a position now whereby its productivity is similar to where it was as far back as 1998. A number of Deputies have already mentioned that in view of the high proportion of public service employment across Northern Ireland, the question of liability as to the pensions for former Northern Ireland civil servants is significant. These are men and women who served their working lives within the British civil service system but who, following unification, would be drawing their pensions in a united Ireland. The question of the funding of that will be extremely significant in any talks following a \"Yes\" vote on both parts of the island.  As the leader of the Green Party, I see our island as a common biosphere. The challenges to our environment and biodiversity and our need to achieve climate reduction targets are shared. I think of the work my colleagues in Green Party Northern Ireland are doing to highlight the devastating pollution of Lough Neagh, our island's largest lake, where algal blooms are causing lasting damage to biodiversity. Something similar is happening at Lady's Island Lake in Wexford. A number of steps are finally being taken, which I welcome. I, my colleague Senator Malcolm Noonan and others have raised that issue. This is just one example of the shared environmental and climate challenges across our island. Initial co-operation and, subsequently, all-island action can have real benefits.  I have touched on a very small number of the fiscal challenges and questions to which the possibility of unification would give rise. It is as valuable to discuss those issues as it is necessary to discuss the constitutional questions, because the question of unity goes beyond votes, parties and institutions. A united Ireland must be about raising living standards and providing equal opportunities for everybody across the island and doing that while protecting and enhancing the natural environment for everyone living on our island. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  I welcome the opportunity to debate such a significant issue. It is helpful that this debate is being framed from a line Department perspective in that it has begun by looking at the fiscal implications of a united Ireland. It would be helpful if we also had a debate on the implications for education and health of a united Ireland. When the T\u00e1naiste spoke earlier in his capacity as Minister for Finance and our party leader earlier, he began the debate by contemplating how we can be more constructive in relation to how we are going to deliver a united Ireland. He also did so at our commemoration of the 100th anniversary of the birth of Garret FitzGerald, who, of course, was instrumental in the signing of the Anglo-Irish Agreement, which was vociferously opposed by, I think, Fianna F\u00e1il, Sinn F\u00e9in and most unionists. With the passage of time, however, any fair and impartial observer would recognise that institutional benefit of ensuring that Ireland and the United Kingdom had a joint role in the affairs of Northern Ireland proved to be instrumental in all the subsequent peace agreements we ultimately arrived at. That kind of legacy and philosophy is important. We need to build on both if we are going to have a constructive debate on a united Ireland. The debate must be built based on real pillars and actual things, including what the practical implications are across education, health and finance.  Of course, the aspiration for a united Ireland goes way beyond those issues. It is the foundation of our State. It is what I think most of us, if not every single person who has been elected to this House, believes in. We are sitting in this Chamber because of the sacrifices so many people made in the pursuit of a united Ireland. That has been the long-term aspiration of this State since its establishment and, I think, of every political party whose members have sat in this Chamber since that date. This is an emotive connection to our island that travels through all of us. It is something that is far greater than the practical implications.  If and when the moment arrives, pursuant to the Good Friday Agreement, that the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland says it is time to have a referendum on unity, let us have our ducks in a row. Let us have a properly constructed debate. I say, in a non-partisan way, that it would be helpful if other political parties carried out an exercise similar to the one we are carrying out and if they presented different papers. Let us demonstrate to those in Northern Ireland that we do care about the community they believe in and that we believe in their aspirations for a united Ireland. Let us also demonstrate to those who are perhaps sceptical but not opposed to a united Ireland that down here we are thinking about it and about the implications it would have for their lives and livelihoods.  As the T\u00e1naiste outlined, there are always going to be different costs if you assess these things on a static basis but he also highlighted the opportunity of the services we have in our economy, an all-island service economy and recognising the enormous benefits that could bring. He highlighted the euro, which is important. If we think back to the Scottish referendum, one of the biggest reasons it failed was because the Scottish people were not certain whether they were going to have the British pound or the euro. They were not certain of the sovereignty of the new Scotland and what relationship it would have with the British monarchy in future. They were not certain either about defence, which was perhaps an even more important issue for them than would be the case on this island. We can learn from the outcome of a debate that was on a knife-edge; a flip of a coin and Scotland would have been independent. Something else we know from that referendum is just how much it stirs people\u2019s interest in politics from a young age.  I have said I am a constitutional nationalist like every single person in this Chamber but every Irish person from a very young age up has a strong connection to this idea of unity and they want to see all their elected politicians within this State speaking to that aspiration. It is up to us to be able to demonstrate that this aspiration can bear fruit. We can demonstrate to an older generation that there is nothing to be fearful about when it comes to the implications relating to the cost involved, to health or to education. The only way we can do that is by having a constructive debate in this Chamber and by adopting the approach of having a line Department look at these issues. Obviously, none of that will be sufficient unless we can demonstrate to every community in Northern Ireland that the country will be an inclusive place, but we in Ireland have shown just how inclusive we can be. I am 41 years old. Thinking back, there is such a difference between Dublin city now and Dublin city 20 or 30 years ago, particularly when one considers that in that one in four of those who live in Dublin are not originally from Ireland. We have demonstrated that we are a much more inclusive city and a much more inclusive country and that the history that would perhaps have scared many of those in the Protestant and unionist communities in Northern Ireland has been shed by people south of the Border. We do not have the burden of sectarianism and one particular church dominating our views and policies.  We have an awful lot to offer. We hold the Presidency of the European Union. There are an awful lot of young people in Northern Ireland and the Republic who see the opportunities offered by having direct membership of the European Union. It is true that as a result of the negotiations relating to Brexit, we did a lot to protect Northern Ireland\u2019s interests in terms of its relationship with Europe, but those people want to be part of the European Union. They feel Irish and they feel European. Many in the middle ground unionism recognise our affinity with Europe, and that would speak to them in a way that would be persuasive to their ideals. However, nobody can underestimate the challenges the State faces in persuading a population that is very sceptical that we would we welcome them to this country and that we could provide a state that would function. What we can do right now - I think that is what the T\u00e1naiste's contribution and these statements have commenced - is to talk to the people of this State and say to them that there are things that need to be contemplated at line Department level. We need to convince them that we are looking at what they fear and at the risks involved in order that we can be ready to talk to those to whom I refer. At the same time, we have to continue to engage by means of the shared island initiative and to keep building relationships at a community level in order to support everyone on this island. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Natasha Newsome Drennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan  I welcome the chance to speak about the fiscal impact of the long-overdue reunification of Ireland. I also welcome the T\u00e1naiste's speech. It is a pity that more people in the House did not speak up in the same way.  For too long a false narrative has been published by those who oppose reunification. Whether in politics or the media, they have used their position of power to scare people off the idea but these are the same people who never cared about the people of the North or those in the Border communities that were forcibly divided. As a farmer, I look at the continued partition of this island and see the damage it is doing to our agricultural sector. Look at the spread of TB among herds. It is a disease that does not recognise artificial borders. Rates of TB in the North are far higher than in the South and many outbreaks in the South have been traced back to Northern herds. Farming families are put under immense pressure financially and mentally when they lose a herd to TB. That is heartbreaking. It makes no sense that on such a small, well-connected island we have two completely different systems trying to tackle the same problem. It is true that there is a joint project under way, but it is far too limited in the context of how it operates. We need a single, unified and all-island approach.  Partition also creates barriers for our agrifood sector and prevents the full potential of a unified economic zone.  It leads to higher costs and more bureaucracy for our farmers and producers and adds to the pressures they face. When we talk about a united Ireland, we need to be ambitious. We need to ask why the economy in the North lags behind that of the South and, more importantly, how we can fix that. There is no doubt that reunification will bring challenges, but it will also bring immense opportunities. It is time that we started focusing on those. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Kenny.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Martin-Kenny.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Martin Kenny  I welcome this debate. Such a debate has been needed for quite a long time. The reality is that for many people, the issue of the financial implications of Irish unity has been used as a put-down to try to smother or put a stop to argument and debate. This is a welcome way in which we can open that up. This debate is really about the opportunities that Irish unification would offer as opposed to the difficulties that might arise. There are opportunities, particularly in the agriculture sector, which I deal with most. I speak to farmers in the North all the time. They see the implications of unity. I meet them at the marts in the South when they are moving animals across the Border. All of those things have difficulties and constraints they should not have. Of course, we have the areas of natural constraint payments that most farmers on this side of the Border avail of. Unfortunately, those payments are no longer available in the North. Sinn F\u00e9in has recommended that the payments should be restored. Farmers need support. Brexit took their support away. Brexit took people north of the Border out of the European Union against their will. That placed a sharp focus on the prospect of reunification and what it could deliver for people.  Much has been said about the shared island unit, which has done some magnificent work. However, the Taoiseach explicitly stated from the start that this unit was not a vehicle for constitutional change. We need such a vehicle. We need a means by which we can have discussions like this. A debate here for a couple of hours is fine, but I remember being involved in some of the deep talks with people in the early days of the peace process. We sat in rooms and talked about reconciliation. I met Garret FitzGerald on many occasions at the Glencree Centre for Peace and Reconciliation. All sorts of people from across society, North and South, came together, not just for a couple of hours now and again but for days on end, to discuss the issues and go through the problems and difficulties that peace would entail. It was about a process. That is what we need to develop now, namely a process relating to reunification, as opposed to just having a debate on the odd occasion. This is why the Bill we put forward last week is so important. It is so disappointing that it did not attract support. I hope Government will reflect on that and recognise that we need to build a process. There is an energy for reunification among ordinary people the length and breadth of the country.  This is about the physical constraints, but is also about identity. Many people who live on this island have a British identity. If we are to have a free country, they have to be free to express that identity. We can all stand up for that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Lawless  I am glad of the opportunity to speak on the issue of Irish unity. Aont\u00fa is one of the few parties in this House that is active North and South and that stands candidates in elections in every county. At this time, the poll figures indicate that we are moving in the right direction. Even our opponents on this issue are almost accepting the inevitability of a united Ireland. I feel an enormous privilege and responsibility as an elected member of this House at such a time in this nation\u2019s history when we are on the cusp of Irish unity. It is an extraordinary thing to say that the island will be united in the very near future. As a result, it is fundamentally important that we prepare for and discuss Irish unity.  It is important that those who oppose a united Ireland - who are now a minority on this island, and increasingly so - are treated as equals and with the respect they deserve in the discussions relating to a united Ireland. I have good friends from the Protestant tradition to whom I speak on a near daily basis. Despite our differing politics, it is really important that we remain open to communicating with people. The reason we are friends is because we debate these issues. We do not ignore our differences. Rather, we celebrate and discuss them and challenge each other. One of my favourite quotes from the Good Friday Agreement is, \"We acknowledge the substantial differences between our continuing, and equally legitimate, political aspirations.\"  Some people in this Chamber who are well-intentioned are getting it wrong. Rather than celebrating and respecting our differences and our right to be different politically or religiously, they wish to make us all the same. They want to make us all apolitical atheists who never speak on or campaign in respect of the issues. The move away from faith-based schools in the North towards integrated and secular education is upsetting to people on both sides of the divide. Both sides are ironically united in their fight to remain different. Protestants want to be Protestants and Catholics want to be Catholics. Unionists want to be unionists and republicans want to be republicans. The idea that we should all become the same is completely contrary to the Good Friday Agreement and the vision of John Hume, who said:  Difference is of the essence of humanity. Difference is an accident of birth and it should therefore never be the source of hatred or conflict. The answer to difference is to respect it. Therein lies a most fundamental principle of peace \u2014 respect for diversity.  Aont\u00fa believes fundamentally in a united Ireland. During the Civil War, the pro-Treaty side said that the Treaty would create the freedom necessary to attain freedom. Those on the anti-Treaty side wanted freedom there and then and were sceptical that if it was not achieved in the 1920s, it never would be. No matter what side our political ancestors were on, the crux of it is that they would want us to strive for a united Ireland today. Liam Mellows once said that if Ireland was partitioned, two establishments would arise on each side of the Border and that they would depend on the Border for their power.  The T\u00e1naiste once said that he wanted to make Ireland the best country in the world in which to raise a child. He is failing in that regard. We have a situation where we have record homelessness among children, spinal surgery waiting lists and children with special needs or disabilities who are waiting for supports. Many of the families of those children feel abandoned. If we make Ireland a better place in which to live, we will see a situation where those in the North who are currently undecided on the question of Irish unity will want to be part of this great country. In the event of a united Ireland, unionists in the North would actually have more influence and more of a say in their constituencies and in the running of their localities if they were sitting in the D\u00e1il as opposed to in the British Parliament. They would make up a higher proportion of the membership of the D\u00e1il than is the case at Westminster.  Aont\u00fa's leader, Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn, during his time on the Oireachtas enterprise committee, completed the first Oireachtas report on the all-island economy. The basic finding of the report was that every public service on the island would be better served by a united Ireland. The North's economy is in very bad shape because London is not interested in it. The North is primed to take off economically. It would do so if the foreign direct investment strategy that obtains in the South also obtained there. The North has more labour available and more people seeking work. It has a lower costs for labour, property and energy than is the case in the South. lf we were operating on an all-island basis, everyone would prosper economically.  I do not agree with the idea of a citizens' assembly because that is just kicking the can down the street. \u00c9amon \u00d3 Cu\u00edv famously said that we already have a citizens' assembly in this country, namely, the D\u00e1il, and this is where we should debate the issue. That is why we have elections. That is why we go to the people. I think we should take this opportunity. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Nicholas Gogarty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Nicholas Gogarty  I have been listening to this debate in my office since Deputy Currie started her contribution. I always follow these debates on Irish unity with interest as someone who wants to see a united Ireland by consent. I note that this discussion is focusing on the fiscal elements required to help make it a reality, but these considerations can never be looked at in isolation. During my brief contribution, I will focus on some of the other elements as well.  It is clear that the fiscal and social realities of a potential united Ireland require a lot of actual planning rather than political rhetoric. I would be loath to call a border poll right now because of the risks associated with that, but if a border poll did occur, the State would have to be prepared for the huge structural disruptions that would follow, so we have to start working now - that is why this debate is welcome - without arrogantly presuming it is going to become a reality any time soon, and especially without alienating those of a different background and viewpoint whom we need to bring on board.  We have had discussions about the economic modelling showing the different scenarios and, in some cases, this has been weaponised, depending on one's political outlook. We had the ESRI's \u20ac20 billion figure mentioned as the worst-case scenario. We also have other gaps that are much smaller, like a ten-year phased transition, reducing the net annual cost to between \u20ac2.5 billion and \u20ac3 billion. We then had the middle figure of about \u20ac11 billion. We actually do not know how much it is going to cost but we do know it is going to cost something. The debate is really about whether one wants a united Ireland or not, and if we do want a united Ireland, we must be prepared to put up with the cost because there are going to be economic benefits as well as social ones down the line.  The middle-ground figure of \u20ac11 billion quoted earlier is more likely a realistic figure, even allowing for the fact that things sometimes become a lot more expensive in this country. Any transition to a united Ireland will require a lot of structural mechanisms, as the T\u00e1naiste said. For example, adopting a single currency, getting rid of the exchange rate volatility and the transaction costs for cross-Border businesses are all advantages. Full re-entry into the EU Single Market for services and removing the jurisdictional barriers are all advantages and allow State bodies to plan for infrastructure, higher education and skills delivery on an all-Ireland basis.  However, the non-financial obstacles are equally severe. There are two parallel administrative systems. There are the healthcare services that others have referenced. Obviously, people in Northern Ireland really like their National Health Service. Merging that with our health service in terms of Sl\u00e1intecare will require a huge amount of money.  The other angles would be the democratic implications of a vote. As I have mentioned in the House before, if a border poll passes by 52% to 48%, the legal threshold of the Good Friday Agreement is met but the social consensus is not and moving 800,000 citizens into a new state against their explicit, democratic will does risk causing civil unrest. Civil war has been mentioned as an outlier risk but we are talking about localised political polarisation, most likely, stuff that would actually stop a united Ireland from being as viable as it could be. Data from the Analysing and Researching Ireland North and South project confirms fears that loyalist paramilitary violence and instability could remain a deterrent to people voting for a united Ireland.  To mitigate those risks we need a lot of constitutional and institutional accommodation, necessary measures that people might have to swallow. Some have been mentioned in this House, such as a devolved regional assembly in Stormont to preserve local governance for the unionist community, a shared bill of rights protecting the dual Irish-British citizenship, and re-evaluating our relationship with the Commonwealth. Also, our symbols like the flag and the national anthem are things we hold very dear here, but we are going to have to take those risks and be as accommodating as possible. I hope it comes as soon as it is feasibly possible. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Lahart","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Lahart.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Lahart.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Lahart  I welcome the opportunity to contribute briefly on this debate. I was listening to some of it. I echo some of the comments made by Deputy Gogarty about the provocative nature of some of the matters that he raised and the wide range of issues we would need to consider. We do not talk about the North in this House enough. I have been here ten years and it seems to me that we are only really beginning to have a discussion about it.  There is nothing for us to be afraid of once we have open minds, open hearts and are respectful to the stance that everyone else takes in this House. If we were to agree on something, it would be that we all want to live on an island that every single person on the island can call \"home\". If we were to start from there, it would be as good a starting point as any. However, it would also give a real indication of the challenges that lie ahead of us in order to make that feeling of home for everybody who lives on the island a real possibility.  That means there is a huge amount of work to be done. The shared island project is a clear example of the kind of work that can be done, dealing with tangible projects being delivered in a non-threatening way, either reinforcing historical, infrastructural connections that used to exist but were broken and re-establishing them or creating synergies on the island, and trust, dialogue and research in relation to specific projects.  However, we can be braver than that. I look at the things that partition robbed us of. We can outline a lot of them but I am thinking of how we had a natural federal system on this island with four provinces. It lends itself to a very natural system of federal government where there is a capital in each province determining - not ruling, but representing everybody in those provinces - and maybe a central government made up of representatives of those four provinces. Partition robbed us of that natural four-province political framework on the island.  Even if we were to start there and re-establish four provinces, we could see the concessions that would need to be made. We could say that Belfast was the natural capital of the province of Ulster. It would require concessions on the part of the three counties of Ulster that remain in the Republic. It would require concessions on the part of the Six Counties that are in Northern Ireland to incorporate the other three counties into the administrative system. I do not want to name what might be the capital cities of the other provinces because that could get me into an awful lot of trouble. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mark Ward  Dublin. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Lahart","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Lahart.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Lahart.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Lahart  That simple structure in Ireland of four provinces offered and offers a very simple federal system that could be taken going forward, and then we would decide where central government is organised from. It would clearly have to have a Belfast dimension as well as a Dublin dimension.  I do not think one-upmanship in the House assists this because we all have ideas and they are all valid. I do not think there is any one Member or party that is the exclusive carrier of the flame or the ambition for unity.  In the foreign affairs committee, which I chair, we often meet diplomats from other countries and when we talk about this country I often describe it as an unfinished story. In the current debate, when we talk about security, defence and how Ireland is going to approach this, I always say Ireland is having a conversation about this for the first time. Nobody needs to pressurise us about this; we will make our decisions about it ourselves in a mature way. In the context of the Thirty-two Counties, we often do not remember that six counties of the country are essentially in NATO, for example. Deputy Gogarty referred to those kinds of conversations. They cannot just be one-way conversations. They are real conversations that have to be had. They lead me to the conclusion that the difficult considerations are not around how much it would cost but they will be about the give and take.  For example, let us say, hypothetically, that unionism would agree to a united Ireland if the Republic joined NATO. What kind of reaction would that receive? What kind of reaction would it receive on the opposite side of the House or this side of the House? As Deputy Gogarty asked - and I am not outlining a personal position on this - what if we said the price of a united Ireland was rejoining the Commonwealth? What would be the reaction to that? I am not suggesting we rejoin the Commonwealth but I think it is realistic to suggest that it might be a unionist part of the conversation we would have to have down the road.  We had a very interesting presentation by IBEC. Some of my colleagues across the floor were with us this morning when IBEC presented some of the real practical challenges that partition causes, particularly for people who work on the Border. There are real tax implications if they live in the Republic and work in the North, or if they live in the North and work in the Republic. We have not actually established some kind of common area or system that enables people to do that and it is actually hindering economic development and progress. IBEC has said that. I agree with Deputy Lawless as well, and this is not an attack on anybody's position. This is the citizens' assembly and I think we should trust ourselves to debate this as we are doing now, in a respectful way.  In regard to one of the things we can do as well, economically, so many people in the Republic have not been to the Six Counties. I think that is a real piece of work we need to continuously work on. I know we have the all-island tourist body and it has done phenomenal pieces. I am not the world's best traveller to the Six Counties but in the past two years, I have been up there at GAA matches following Dublin and Derry. I am thrilled to say I went to see the Heaney homeplace in Bellaghy. I have not been this year and I think it ought to be on our agenda to visit and to get to know it. It was difficult for us to do it in times gone past.  I want to say this as a Fianna F\u00e1il politician. As someone who joined the party as a young man, one of the things that motivated me was that I wanted to see our country united. I still want to see our country united. I have learned, I think. I have listened, read and continue to listen. I remember sitting in the back seat of my parents' car as we crossed the Border for the first time, a British soldier talking to my father, seeing his gun and having an awful gut feeling about the idea that a British soldier would be stopping my father's car. I was from Dublin. I had no experience of what it was like to have occupying forces on my doorstep but I know it was a gut feeling. I also know that now I have travelled a long distance, it does not mean the notion of uniting the country has become diluted for me. I hope, however, that I recognise - if I come back to the point I started with - that if we want to create a place that everybody on the island can call home, then there needs to be a much more sophisticated conversation than maybe we have been used to.  The Government could do an awful lot more to lead on this. That is not a criticism; it is just an exhortation to say it needs to trust people, and to trust the people of the Republic to be able to have and cope with a sensitive conversation about sensitive issues. The sooner that conversation starts - here is a good place to kick it off - the sooner we discover the things that are on people's minds when it comes to a discussion about either uniting the people, uniting the territory, or creating a place all of us can call home. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mark Ward  Last week, the D\u00e1il debated Irish unity during Opposition time and today, the conversation continues on Government time. This is a welcome and positive step.  The conversation about our constitutional future is moving forward and it is right that the Government begins the serious work of planning for constitutional change now. Across Ireland, more and more people are engaging in this discussion and asking what a united Ireland could mean for their families, communities and future generations. The national conversation is well under way and it is important that it is informed, inclusive and focused on the opportunities that lie ahead.  I welcome the fact that the Government is recognising this by scheduling this debate on the economics of Irish unity today. However, last week, Fianna F\u00e1il, Fine Gael and the Independents failed in their duty and their constitutional obligations to make preparations for unity. The debacle arising from Brexit is all the evidence you need to plan for the future. Fail to prepare and prepare to fail.  In fairness, the biggest question I get when we discuss Irish unity is around how we are going to afford it. It is a genuine concern for the ordinary people I have conversations with on this island. It is based on the British subvention and the figures that are being bandied about. The figures frequently quoted as representing the British Government's annual subvention to the North is a British accounting exercise. For the purpose of this debate, any figures I reference will be in euro.  The total subvention includes central British Government costs allocated to the North that would not be relevant to a united Ireland and here is why. The subvention from the British Exchequer to the North was \u20ac16 billion in 2023. Recent analysis shows that the true deficit that would transfer to a united Ireland is approximately \u20ac1.7 billion. To put that in context, that is about 13% of the Apple tax money. The 2027 budget in the South will be over \u20ac125 billion, so the cost to the Irish State will only be 1.4% of the overall budget.  The single biggest factor of the British subvention to the North is pensions, which is around \u20ac6.8 billion. The cost of pensions is unlikely to transfer to a new Ireland. Many people living in Ireland already receive British pensions because they have worked in Britain and now they live here.  The second largest part of the subvention is the \u20ac4.1 billion that relates to public debt. Ireland would have no legal liability to pay any part of this. The cost of defence and international relations is approximately \u20ac2.7 billion and almost none of this expenditure relates to activity taking place in the North. This expenditure would not be carried over into a new Irish State. Taxes that are raised in the North would also now revert to a united Ireland. This includes taxes that are currently collected by Westminster, which would be used for the benefit of everybody on this island.  What is often overlooked are the economic benefits of a united Ireland. An all-island, all-Ireland economy would have huge benefits and would allow our nations to thrive once we remove the shackles of partition. Partition has failed everybody on this island. It has not allowed us, as a nation, to reach our full potential.  I also think it is important that we take the current financial situation in the North seriously. It is always disappointing when Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael use the North as a stick to beat Sinn F\u00e9in. Even the Labour Party used this tactic this week. The Six Counties have been held back from reaching their full potential because they have not seen the necessary investment.  Westminster holds the purse strings. The devolved institutions can only work with the budget that the British Government allocates to them, yet Sinn F\u00e9in as the lead party in the Assembly is working tirelessly to deliver for all the communities in the North. That does not stop Miche\u00e1l Martin or Simon Harris from bringing in clippings or printouts and standing up in the D\u00e1il with a big \"gotcha\" moment. That is beneath them. The people of the North deserve more respect than that.  My colleagues in the Assembly would love to have the huge surpluses that the Government in the South has in every budget but they spend every single penny on the people in the North. If Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael want to criticise us, our tactics and what we do up in the North, I suggest that they run candidates in the elections there next year. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Fiscal Implications of a United Ireland: Statements"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_37","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Teachtaireachta\u00ed \u00f3n Seanad - Messages from Seanad","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_37","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Seanad \u00c9ireann has passed the Health (Provision of Contraception Prescribing Service in Retail Pharmacy Businesses) Bill 2026, without amendment.  Seanad \u00c9ireann has passed the Development (Strategic Gas Reserve) Bill 2026, without amendment. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Teachtaireachta\u00ed \u00f3n Seanad - Messages from Seanad"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_38","debateType":"topical","bill":null,"showAs":"\u00c1bhair Shaincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Matters","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_38","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  I wish to advise the House of the following matters in respect of which notice has been given under Standing Order 39 and the name of the Member in each case:  Deputies Ciar\u00e1n Ahern, Se\u00e1n Crowe, Paul Murphy, Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh, James Geoghegan and John Lahart - to discuss the feasibility of continuing MetroLink from the city to south-west Dublin.  Deputy Tom Brabazon - to discuss the proposed new Garda station at Northern Cross.  Deputy Brian Stanley - to discuss regulations to provide that only those over 16 years of age can use e-scooters and e-bikes.  Deputy Martin Daly - to discuss childcare provision in Boyle, County Roscommon.  Deputy Emer Currie - to discuss a school building project in Dublin 7.  Deputy Ryan O'Meara - to discuss the establishment of a sexual assault treatment union, SATU, in the HSE Mid West region.  Deputy Malcolm Byrne - to discuss the need for the development of Bunclody Community College, County Wexford.  Deputy Marie Sherlock - to discuss the use of periodic payment orders in the courts.  Deputy Rory Hearne - to discuss the cessation of the financial contribution scheme in Dublin North-West.  Deputy P\u00e1draig O'Sullivan - to discuss a potential State purchase of the Bessborough site in Blackrock, Cork city.  Deputy Louis O'Hara - to discuss the need for a 24-hour rapid response vehicle at Tuam ambulance base.  Deputy Duncan Smith - to discuss the need for upgraded infrastructure in the Swords area.  Deputy Roderic O'Gorman - to discuss the recording, measuring and prevention of heat-related deaths.  Deputies Gary Gannon and Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa - to discuss issues being created in the court system by the new legal aid model.  The matters raised by Deputies Ciar\u00e1n Ahern, Se\u00e1n Crowe, Paul Murphy, Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh, James Geoghegan, John Lahart, Emer Currie, Malcolm Byrne, Duncan Smith and Brian Stanley have been selected for discussion. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"\u00c1bhair Shaincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Matters"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_39","debateType":"statement","bill":null,"showAs":"Fiscal Implications of a United Ireland: Statements (Resumed)","counts":{"speechCount":2,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_39","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert Troy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Robert-Troy.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Finance (Deputy Robert Troy)  I welcome the opportunity to contribute on this debate on the financial implications of Irish unity. It is fair to say that it is an important discussion and one that deserves to be approached with seriousness, honesty and respect. Having listened to the majority of the debate, I do not think I heard one voice in favour of partition even though there may be differences of opinion about how we achieve a united Ireland. As Deputy Lahart quite rightly said, I do not believe one-upmanship is going to achieve anything.  As a member of Fianna F\u00e1il, I am proud to stand in a republican tradition that has always believed in the unity of our people and our island. Our approach has always been grounded in pragmatism and building step by step the conditions that make progress real, sustainable and inclusive. If unity is to mean anything, it must work for all the people on the island. It must work economically, socially and politically.  Quite often, personal experience influences our views and our perceptions of life. My maternal grandfather fought in the First World War and were it not for the pension paid into that house, my mother would not have had the quality of life that she enjoyed. My mother was shaped by the experience and always had a deeply positive view of the UK. That being said, I was raised in a house where Fianna F\u00e1il was consistently supported. We are a party in our 100th year and have played a central role in some of formative issues of our time such as our Constitution, our entry into the EU, the role of Albert Reynolds in the Downing Street Declaration and the Good Friday Agreement, something we were fully committed to realising the full potential of.  However, I am also very mindful that personal experience works both ways, and while our view in our house was shaped positively, that is not the case for many people who grew up around checkpoints, internment, brutality and collusion, so we should approach this debate conscious of the many traditions that exist on this island and the fear on both sides of the divide that some of those traditions could be eroded as we look to unity. Only last weekend, I had the honour of representing the Taoiseach at the commemoration of those who had lost their lives at the Battle of the Somme. The presence of the deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland was a very positive development. I understand that it was the first time she was present in Dublin for that commemoration. The commemoration reminded me that nationalists and unionists fought side by side in several conflicts. That shared history matters and must shape how we think about our shared future.  If there is one principle we must be clear on, it is that unity cannot be built on numbers alone. It cannot be simply about the outcome of a referendum or a financial principle. It must be built on consent, reassurance and trust. In particular, trust among those in the unionist community will not be secured through slogans. It can be secured through reassurance, actions and compromise. Deputy Lahart indicated some of the compromises that may need to be considered.  From a financial perspective, we need to look for clarity. Some fundamental questions need to be addressed. What would happen to public services? How would taxation be structured? What would pensions look like? How would we ensure economic stability during any transition? The results vary depending on which report one looks at. DCU and Ulster University talked about a cost of \u20ac3 billion per annum to the Irish State. In 2024, the Institute of International and European Affairs presented a much more pessimistic outlook and talked about \u20ac20 billion. In 2024, my own Department spoke about a deficit of \u00a37 billion. While many will view these as barriers so as to delay and misinform, we need to realise that our island has overcome its fair share of barriers in the past and we have the capacity to overcome any barriers in the future. What we should be looking at are the opportunities that a united Ireland presents. The T\u00e1naiste outlined some of them in his contribution.  In my role as Minister of State in the Department of Finance, I recently had a courtesy engagement with the Minister of Finance in Northern Ireland. While unity was not the subject of the meeting, what it did show was that there was real scope for practical co-operation and working together in ways that could build trust, potentially align systems and improve outcomes for people across this island. One such area we looked at was a potential all-Ireland trade mission in relation to financial services. We also looked at a joint initiative in relation to financial literacy for the benefit of both sides of the Border. That kind of steady, practical collaboration is not a distraction from the bigger question. Rather, it is how we prepare for it.  This preparation is not new. The Taoiseach's shared island initiative, which looks to bring communities together and break down those barriers, has been highly influential and positive. It has laid the groundwork that will be vital as we embrace this discussion and as the discussion evolves. It is the largest ever programme of all-island investment and co-operation with all traditions of our island.  If we are serious about unity - I believe we all are - we must be equally serious about preparation. That includes asking the difficult but necessary questions, including about the role of the UK in supporting any transition, whether financial contributions over a defined period would form part of any agreement and how the EU could be involved from a geographical enlargement perspective. While these are complex matters, avoiding does not make them go away.  If unity is to be credible, it must be planned and properly resourced. Today's debate is welcome in that regard.  It must be about protecting living standards and supporting enterprise and investment and it must ensure no community, North or South, feels left behind. We must also raise the level of financial literacy on this issue. People deserve to know and understand not just the aspiration but the implication for their livelihoods, public services and future.  Transparency is something I have tried to foster during my term as Minister of State in the Department of Finance. People expect it and are savvy enough to find it themselves. We cannot operate in a silo; we need to be open and engaged across the entire spectrum of this issue. There is an old saying, and I heard it mentioned earlier today, fail to prepare, prepare to fail. If unity is to succeed it will not be because certain people demanded it but it will be because it was prepared for in a careful, responsible, and inclusive manner, in a way that respects all traditions on this island, builds trust and ensures the right economic foundations are laid and strong enough to sustain it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  That concludes statements on the fiscal implications of a united Ireland. This was a very interesting, cohesive debate. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Fiscal Implications of a United Ireland: Statements (Resumed)"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_40","debateType":"topical","bill":null,"showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":false,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_40","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_41","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Public Transport","counts":{"speechCount":14,"speakerCount":7},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_40","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_40","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_41","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ciar\u00e1n Ahern","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Crowe.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Crowe.D.2002-06-06","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Lahart","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Lahart.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Lahart.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  The format is that the first four Deputies will take a minute each. The Minister of State has four minutes to respond. We will then take another Deputy and the Minister of State can respond to them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ciar\u00e1n Ahern","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ciar\u00e1n Ahern  What we are asking for today is simply that the Government lives up to the commitment made in the programme for Government to carry out a new, independent feasibility study for an extension of the MetroLink from where it is currently due to end in Charlemont, out to Dublin south west. I raised this with the Minister for Transport a few weeks ago, and he advised that the study would be carried out but would be done as part of a review of the greater Dublin area transport strategy. While it is welcome to know the study will take place, what we need to know is that it will be an independent study.  The National Transport Authority, NTA, carried out a feasibility study a number of years ago but it was deeply flawed. It examined quite a nonsensical route that finished abruptly in Knocklyon, and therefore it significantly underestimated the cost benefit of the project. From a common sense perspective, it would seem to us to make most sense for the route to carry on all the way to Tallaght to connect with the Luas line, Technological University Dublin, TUD, the Square and the hospital. We ask that the commitment in the programme for Government is delivered. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Crowe.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Crowe.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Se\u00e1n Crowe  Tallaght and the wider south-west Dublin region have been among the fastest growing parts of the State for decades, yet transport investment has consistently failed to keep pace with the growth. Thousands of new homes planned and a rising population place even greater pressure on our roads and public transport networks. MetroLink south west cannot be treated as a project for the 2040s or beyond. We need a feasibility study as a matter of urgency in order that real consideration and planning can begin. It must be planned and delivered as a national priority. Our communities need a modern high-capacity public transport system that connects people to jobs, education and healthcare. Delivering MetroLink south west will reduce congestion, support sustainable housing developments and help meet our climate commitments. The south-west Dublin has waited long enough. Tallaght and the surrounding communities deserve the same ambition and investment as other parts of our capital and that work must begin now. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  The case for MetroLink south west is extremely strong. There are 350,000 people living between the Luas red and green lines. That is who will be served by this. What we are asking for is for the Government to live up to the commitment in the programme for Government to \"[c]ommission an independent feasibility study into continuing MetroLink from the city to southwest Dublin.\" What appears to be happening from information from parliamentary questions and written correspondence is that is being rode back on. It has now turned into part of this being examined as part of a broader strategic review process by the NTA. In other words, it is just part of a regular, six-yearly review process. Getting the NTA to do it is not independent and it is not a feasibility study. It is there in black and white in the programme for Government and the Government needs to live up to its commitment to do a new, properly independent feasibility study. I appeal to the Minister of State to ask the Minister for Transport to meet with the metro south west group which has been doing such excellent campaigning on this issue. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  In a reply to a parliamentary question on MetroLink in April of this year, the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, again stated his belief that the MetroLink terminus can facilitate any potential future MetroLink expansion to serve the south west, south or south east of Dublin should sufficient demand develop. That demand is already there. It is expanding to such an extent that the roads are clogged up and every bus is full. Now is the time, before any shovel or tunnel boring machine goes into the ground, to change tack to look ensuring we go beyond the Charlemont terminus. To continue this is foolish, bizarre and would delay addressing the public transport needs of the constituency and of this city. Will the Minister of State ensure that before any tunnel boring machine goes into the ground there is a change? A change needs to happen now. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science (Deputy Marian Harkin)  On behalf of the Minister for Transport, Deputy O\u2019Brien, I thank the Deputies for the opportunity to address this issue in the House today. As a number of Deputies have alluded to, the programme for Government commits to commissioning an independent feasibility study, continuing MetroLink from the city to south-west Dublin. The Government is committed to undertaking an independent feasibility study for a metro to south-west Dublin. For those reading my script, that is in my final response. However, given that a number of Deputies already raised this, I wanted to clarify it before other Deputies came back in.  Providing an integrated transport network that lets people travel conveniently and efficiently across Dublin is essential as we encourage greater use of public transport. For this reason, we plan and develop public transport in line with the greater Dublin area transport strategy 2022-2042, rather than in isolation, to maximise the use and benefits of each proposal and project. The NTA has statutory responsibility for the transport strategy and must review it every six years, meaning that the next review is due to be concluded by 2028. As part of this review, the NTA will reassess the need for additional metro lines, among other transport options, in the greater Dublin area.  This review will consider updated travel demand forecasts as well as changes in land use and spatial planning policies. This background analytical work is expected to commence over the next year. The feasibility study for a metro to south-west Dublin will be undertaken as part of this broader strategic review process. The Deputies will, I hope, understand that this approach will help ensure that it is considered in an integrated and holistic manner, alongside wider transport and spatial planning objectives for the greater Dublin area.  An Coimisi\u00fan Plean\u00e1la published its decision to grant the MetroLink Railway Order in October 2025, and a subsequent potential legal challenge was withdrawn following successful mediation by Transport Infrastructure Ireland.  This means that MetroLink secured an operative railway order, or full planning permission, in January. MetroLink is now progressing at pace towards procurement and construction. With this key milestone achieved, attention is turning to the preparation of the review of the strategy.  As I mentioned, any consideration of new transport projects will not happen in isolation. The upcoming review of the strategy will ensure that proposals complement projects already under way, including BusConnects. As the Deputies are aware, BusConnects Dublin is a transformative programme of investment in the bus system across Dublin through the roll-out of new routes and the construction of core bus corridors. BusConnects will continue to provide benefits for public transport users across Dublin city and its suburbs, including south-west Dublin. In addition, we must recognise that MetroLink's design and alignment, including terminating at Charlemont in the south of Dublin city centre, will facilitate the seamless integration between MetroLink and any potential new metro line to the south or south west. With MetroLink due to enter construction in the coming years, we will have for the first time the people, skills and knowledge to build and operate metros. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  I thank the Minister of State. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Marian Harkin  I will continue afterwards. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Deputy Lahart is on his own, so he can take the two minutes for his other colleague also. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Lahart","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Lahart.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Lahart.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Lahart  I will be fair to my colleagues. I welcome the very positive news the Minister of State announced to the effect that the Government is positively committing itself to the consideration of the feasibility study we, as representatives of the various constituencies, are requesting. This is one of the most significant investments in transport in the history of the State, but, for too long, communities in my constituency have watched major transport projects stop short of where growth is happening. We live in a country that was better connected by rail 100 years ago than it is today. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Marian Harkin  The Deputy does not have to tell me that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Lahart","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Lahart.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Lahart.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Lahart  It is truly remarkable that in 1888, one could board a tram in the city and travel all the way to Blessington via Rathfarnham and Templeogue, yet in 2026, we are still arguing for but have now moved much closer to an independent feasibility study to bring modern rail infrastructure to our constituency.  The Minister of State will agree that the best time to build a metro in Dublin was 20 years ago. The second best time is right now. The Government must not make the people in Dublin South-West wait another 20 years to make a decision on this. Her news today is a very positive and welcome step towards making that a reality. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  I appreciate that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Marian Harkin  As somebody who comes from the west - I did not write this script - I can assure the Deputy that I know what he is talking about when he says that the system was better 100 years ago than it is now. My purpose here today is not to labour that point, it is to answer his questions. Again, on behalf of the Minister for Transport, I thank the Deputies for their comments and for their interest in this important issue. As I have already stated - I will reiterate it - the Government is committed to undertaking an independent feasibility study for a metro to south-west Dublin. Furthermore, the Government recognises the transformational potential of metros, as we will see in the north of Dublin with MetroLink. We recognise that a metro to the south west may offer similar transformational potential.  This year has been significant for MetroLink and the country progressing towards building its first metro line. We have seen significant market engagement and preparations for detailed procurement and the launch of contracts to do the groundwork and enable major construction. MetroLink will be built and will open up opportunities for Ireland, including the expansion and development of a new metro network. As already stated, the potential extension of the new metro line or, indeed, the broader public transport network is not done in isolation. The review of the current greater Dublin area transport strategy will be central to ensuring joined-up thinking and robust planning. This comprehensive approach to planning our public transport network will maximise the opportunities for network integration and the benefits to be gained from expansion in order that we can get the most out of our public transport network. It will also ensure that future proposals complement projects already under way, including Bus Connects, as I have mentioned, and the DART+ and Luas projects that will enter construction in the coming years. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Public Transport"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_42","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Schools Building Projects","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_40","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_40","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_42","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Currie","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Currie","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Emer Currie  I want to raise the urgent need to progress the long-awaited school building project for St. John Bosco Junior Boys National School, St. John Bosco Senior Boys National School and Mary, Help of Christians Girls' National School on the Navan Road. These schools have served generations of families in communities on the Navan Road and in Ashtown with distinction, but the reality is that the school buildings have reached the end of their life. Parents, teachers, staff members and past pupils all say the same thing whenever I speak to them. These buildings are outdated, deteriorating and no longer provide the modern learning environment that their children and staff deserve.  These are three distinct schools, but they share a common vision. Rather than simply replacing the existing buildings, they have come together with an ambitious proposal to create one educational campus on the existing site. This project has the potential to be one of the most significant primary school developments in the State. However, the project has been stalled at stage 2a since 2024. It now needs real momentum because this is about more than bricks and mortar.  Through my engagement with families across Dublin 7 and into Dublin 15, I know that many parents feel they have too few options when it comes to choosing schools. This is an area where single-sex provision dominates and many families have gone without the suitable option of co-educational schooling. This is not just my opinion; the Department's recent primary school survey confirms it. The survey looked at educational provision through co-education and through multidenominational provision and through the medium of Irish. Some 73% of parents who responded across these three schools supported co-educational provision across Cabra, Phibsborough and Dublin 7, which is their school planning area. Support rose to almost 89% among households with children currently in primary school. The results are striking. In Mary, Help of Christians, 96 out of 140 respondents supported co-education. In St. John Bosco Senior Boys National School, it was 100 out of 131, which is 76%. In the junior national school, 46 out of 60 or 77% supported co-education.  Following the publication of the survey results, I understand that the Department intends to engage with boards of management to discuss the findings and consider the future configuration of schools. I also understand that boards of management have been asked to engage with parents, staff, patrons and the wider community, and to notify the patron and the Department by the end of October as to whether they want to put these results into action. Engagement is welcome. I understand that if about 50% of the school population participated in the survey, schools may want to engage further to bring the whole school community with them. This gives them the timeline to do that.  We have a real opportunity here. There is an appetite for change. That is not just clear in the survey but when I speak to families at their doors, which we are privileged to be able to do when we are canvassing. I have two questions. First, what practical supports will the Department provide to schools that decide they wish to move towards co-educational provision while remaining on the existing campus where they have three separate schools? Is the Department working to a timeline? Second, could the Minister of State assure me that this building project is being actively prioritised and that the design process will be sufficiently flexible to accommodate co-educational provision? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Marian Harkin  I thank the Deputy for raising this matter and giving me the opportunity, on behalf of the Minister for Education and Youth, to outline to the D\u00e1il the current position in relation to the joint school project for St. John Bosco Junior Boys School, St. John Bosco Senior Boys School and Mary, Help of Christians Girls' National School in Dublin 7.  This joint school building project will deliver two new 16-classroom primary schools with additional classrooms for children with special educational needs for both the senior boys' school and the girls' school and a new 11-classroom primary school with additional classrooms for children with special education needs for the junior boys' school.  Initially, it had been anticipated that this joint project would be delivered in the form of an extension and refurbishment. However, due to a scope change to include an increase in classrooms for children with special educational needs, it was decided that new school buildings would be provided. The design team submitted the initial stage 1 report in April 2023 and following the submission of an addendum report in August 2023, the project was approved to the next stage. The design team submitted their stage 2a submission report in January 2024.  Upon review, some key concerns were identified by Department officials. From January 2024 to May 2025, there was significant communication between the design team and the Department to discuss and assist in progressing the stage 2a submission to include a review and audit of the floor area schedules to refine some design elements to meet the approved schedule of accommodation.  Upon receipt of the revised stage 2a report, Department officials carried out an initial review. In early June 2025, a further meeting was held with the wider design team, school authorities and Department officials in attendance. At that meeting, the school was provided with a progress update and advised that the design team were due to submit an addendum stage 2a report to the Department. The outstanding information for the addendum stage 2a report was received by the Department officials on 31 October 2025 and is currently under review by them. They visited the school on Friday 27 March 2026 and discussed potential options for a solution with the school authorities. Further discussions were held on 18 June. Department officials will continue to engage and update the school authorities of progress regarding these decisions. In June, the Department issued primary schools with their school-specific patronage survey results and explanatory information, marking the next stage in the process of engaging school communities on the future direction of their schools. Where the survey shows demand for change, boards of management have the opportunity to consider being included in the first group of schools to action the survey results. Schools have been asked to inform the Department and their patron by 31 October 2026 should the school wish to be included in this first group of schools to action the primary school survey results. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Currie","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Emer Currie  This is not simply about replacing old buildings; this is about building a modern educational campus that reflects the needs and the wishes of the families in Dublin 7 and Dublin 15 for generations to come. The community has waited long enough. They deserve a modern school campus and the opportunity to shape the modern provision of education in their area. When we have previously discussed this building project, I have made it clear from the start that it should be an objective that the building be suitable for co-educational provision. That should be in-built into this project. I have had reassurance from the Department that this will be the case. We do not want for a project that has already taken long enough to get to this point to be in any way stalled by progress on co-educational provision. Parents need reassurance today that the Department is ready, willing and able to work with them on providing a new building and that the building will be suitable for the type of education that they want their children to have. What the Minister of State has outlined in relation to the engagement between the school and parents is important. I am confident enough that after that engagement that the parental survey results will still stand because this community wants a new school in a new method of provision. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Marian Harkin  I agree with the Deputy that this is not refurbishment. In my initial response, I made it clear that this joint school building project will deliver two new 16-classroom primary schools with additional classrooms for children with special educational needs for both the senior boys\u2019 school and the girls\u2019 school and an 11-classroom primary school with additional classrooms for children with special educational needs for the junior boys\u2019 school. I have no information regarding the co-education provision but the Deputy said that she has received assurances and she is happy with them. I will take her at her word.  As part of the NDP implementation plan for the education and youth sector, a first tranche of projects to progress to tender and-or construction during 2026 and 2027 was published in January 2026. Prioritisation will continue to identify further tranches of projects to proceed to tender and construction over the NDP period with stakeholder consultation to commence in June 2026. Our NDP implementation plan will optimise outputs from the NDP allocations with a strong focus on maximising existing school capacity, progressing priority projects where local capacity across schools in an area is insufficient and ensuring delivery that is affordable, offers value for money and meets functional needs. The accommodation needs at St. John Bosco junior boys' school and senior boys' school and Mary Help of Christian Girls' National School will be considered as part of the ongoing overall Department-led prioritisation process in consultation with the school's patron and school authorities. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Schools Building Projects"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_43","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Schools Building Projects","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_40","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_40","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_43","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Malcolm Byrne  As we are moving towards the recess, I thank the Ceann Comhairle, and indeed, the officials in her office and all of the staff across the House for all of their work during the year that has made this place run so smoothly.  I wish to raise the question of Bunclody Community College. I have had to do it on a number of occasions. This is an excellent and very inclusive school in Bunclody, County Wexford on the Wexford-Carlow border. It has 310 students. It has had a 42% increase in enrolments since 2019. It has an incredibly dedicated principal, staff and board of management, but it also has great supports from the wider Bunclody community. The local councillor there, Barbara-Anne Murphy, has regularly raised this as one of most critical issues around the long-term development of the Bunclody community. To say that the school, and indeed, the wider area are deeply frustrated by the lack of progress is an understatement. This is an excellent school, but when it comes to its physical infrastructure, the school is in dire straits. Of all the schools in the constituency in terms of physical infrastructure that I deal with, it is the worst that I have encountered. There are few anywhere else in the country that I have come across that are more deserving of the necessary work that has to happen. That is not an exaggeration.  I challenge the Minister of State, or indeed, any Deputy to name any other second level school in the country where all but three of the mainstream classrooms are in prefabs. Almost all of the mainstream provision of the school operates out of prefabs. Some of those prefabs are over 20 years old.  It is a split campus, so students have to walk 500 m from one campus in one area of the school to another campus, crossing a busy regional road. That is fine in weather like this, although I know the school is not open at the moment, but the Minister of State, as a teacher, can imagine the pressure that places on students and parents in winter, such as in the winter we just had.  When I submitted a parliamentary question to the Department of education on the number of schools in the country operating on split campuses, I found it unusual that this school was one of the schools included in the reply, even though that fact is a critical part of its application for work to be done.  The process of redeveloping this expanding and very inclusive school started in 2014. I am sure the Ceann Comhairle will remember being approached by the then principal, staff and others. Pressure has been applied. When capital decisions were being made by the Department of education I asked why this school was not included and what criteria were used. I was able to say it is a disadvantaged school, a DEIS school, and one of the top schools in the country for championing support for Traveller education. It is deeply committed to inclusive education for those with disabilities or indeed with exceptional abilities and all students are supported and challenged to thrive. I outlined the physical challenges it faces.  I am sure the Minister of State will read out the Department's response telling us the project is at stage 2b. I have regularly referred to stage 2B in the Department of education as \"purgatory\". In Catholic philosophy, purgatory is that period of purification so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. I hope the Minister of State will be able to provide some of the joy of heaven for Bunclody Community College in her response today. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  The Minister of State might be like the Pope and get rid of limbo. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Marian Harkin  It is not often I am asked in this House to behave like the man above. I am not sure what I can deliver from purgatory. Nonetheless, I heard what Deputy Byrne said about the conditions, which he told us are unique and among the worst in the country. He also spoke of the commitment of the staff. While I am not personally familiar with the school, I know that schools where conditions are not good or are very poor often have the most committed staff. I have a response here from the Minister for education and my job is to read it to the Deputy.  I thank the Deputy for raising this matter. I am speaking on behalf of the Minister for education. The project referred to by the Deputy is devolved for delivery to the Waterford and Wexford Education and Training Board, WWETB. The project brief is to provide an extension to the existing school building, as well as the appropriate refurbishment of those existing buildings to be retained for ongoing educational use. As the Deputy said, the project is currently at stage 2b - I will remember the term \"purgatory\" again - of the architectural design process. A stage 2b report has been received from WWETB. The report is undergoing a detailed technical and cost review in line with the infrastructure guidelines. All projects, including this one, are subject to such due diligence requirements.  The Department has been actively engaged with the design team and school authority throughout the process and will continue to engage to provide practical advice and assistance on this important project. The Department has a strong track record of investing in the schools building programme, with over \u20ac7 billion invested since 2020. This has delivered approximately 1,500 completed school building projects, along with approximately 4,300 small-scale improvement works to meet priority maintenance needs and advance energy efficiency and climate goals.  Over \u20ac200 million in capital funding has been invested in Wexford schools since 2020. Over this period, a total of 66 schools in Wexford have been upgraded either through provision of a new school building, a large-scale extension or modular accommodation. There are currently 17 school projects in Wexford under construction.  A total capital allocation of \u20ac7.55 billion for the Department of Education and Youth has been confirmed for the period 2026 to 2030 under the national development plan, NDP. As part of this allocation, the Department will place a strong emphasis on provision for children with special educational needs, with a particular focus on meeting annual school place needs.  In relation to project roll-out for large-scale projects and additional school accommodation scheme projects, the approach will be to continue to maximise the capacity of the existing school estate as much as possible in the first instance and provide necessary additional capacity through targeted and prioritised project roll-out over the course of 2026 to 2030 period to meet the most urgent and prioritised needs.  While not every project could be included in the first tranche, all projects continue to move through the pipeline. Urgent accommodation needs will continue to be met through modular delivery, SEN repurposing and the emergency works scheme. As part of the Department-led prioritisation process under way for 2026 and 2027, consultation with school patrons began last month. A further tranche of priority projects is targeted for publication in 2027, informed by departmental analysis, engagement with patrons and schools, funding parameters and, where relevant, the Department's energy and condition inventory of the school estate, due for completion by year-end. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Malcolm Byrne  I appreciate the Minister of State is responding on behalf of the Minister but the response provides nothing new. It is almost a carbon copy of the response I received when I raised this issue in January last. We talk about the NDP allocation, and the Department's response refers to \"a strong emphasis on provision for children with special educational needs\" and those who are disadvantaged. This is a DEIS school with a large Traveller population. The school made clear, including in a meeting with the Minister of State with responsibility for special education, Deputy Michael Moynihan, that while it has a number of SEN classes already, there is also a possibility of developing a special school on a site adjoining the school. This school has a superb record of supporting disadvantaged students, yet it seems to be placed at a disadvantage.  I am conscious the Minister of State referred to additional capital investment in 2027. I fully expect and will continue to campaign to ensure this school is included in the 2027 capital list because it deserved to be addressed before now. I ask the Minister of State to bring back to the Minister, Deputy Naughton, a request that she meet the WWETB, as the patron body, the principal and me to talk about outstanding issues, if any. As the Minister of State said, all of the necessary information has long been provided by the WWETB to the Department. I have outlined the conditions and the Department is aware of them. The Minister of State is right that in times of adversity, it is often the staff and school community that fight better, but these kids and this school deserve a hell of a lot better. They should not be waiting this long to have basic requirements. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Marian Harkin  I will relay the Deputy's request that the Minister consider meeting him with the WWETB and the school principal. I am not sure what requests have been received, and I cannot speak on the Minister's behalf, but I will certainly relay that request.  The Department is committed to ensuring appropriate accommodation is available for all school pupils and will, in the wider context outlined, ensure each school project on the schools building programme is subject to the due diligence required under the infrastructure guidelines. The Department is required to manage the timing, scope and cost of individual projects in order to remain within budgetary parameters for the overall programme. This involves constant review throughout the project life cycle.  The Department remains committed to providing ongoing guidance and practical support for the delivery of this project. As I outlined previously, WWETB, as the delivery body for this large-scale major project, will continue to engage with the school authorities regarding this important project.  I have to say that the next line of my written reply states that at this stage it is not possible to provide a timeline for the completion of this project. I can understand why that meeting is of great importance to the Deputy. The progression of the project tender will be considered as part of the overall prioritisation process, and Waterford and Wexford ETB will continue to engage directly with the school authorities to keep them fully informed of progress. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Schools Building Projects"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_44","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Strategic Infrastructure","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_40","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_40","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_44","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Duncan Smith","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Duncan-Smith.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Duncan-Smith.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Duncan Smith","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Duncan-Smith.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Duncan-Smith.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Duncan Smith  I thank Minister of State, Deputy Harkin, for taking this debate late on a Thursday evening, on the last sitting day of this term.  I would like to talk about the town of Swords in north County Dublin. It is the third largest town by population in Ireland, but it is still treated culturally like a small village with a few airport workers in it. I am not sure how familiar the Minister of State is with Swords, but it is absolutely massive and is undergoing huge change. There is a massive amount of housing being built in Swords, which is welcome. It is all types of housing, from apartment blocks to three- or four-bedroom housing, and it is coming at scale.  Unfortunately, the infrastructure is not coming with the housing. We are currently gridlocked with traffic due to multiple upgrades and works being carried out. I know you cannot make an omelette without cracking a few eggs, but there is a disconnect in the planning of these projects that is causing havoc in Swords. We have a massive issue with our bus network, from bus stops to bus services, and again, we do not have a rail link yet. MetroLink has begun and I believe it is coming, which I am happy about, but it is still ten years away and we have a town of 55,000 people which is getting larger. It is larger than Sligo town and Waterford city; it is absolutely huge. We need bus services, special education classes and some entity to co-ordinate this. It is beyond the county council's capacity, and the Department of housing and infrastructure needs to do this.  Where this is currently hitting hard is in wastewater treatment. We have a very small wastewater treatment plant that has been there for 40 or 50 years and which serviced a much smaller town. It is currently being retrofitted and upgraded, but those works are being delayed. I cannot get across to the Minister of State the smell in the town of Swords right now, particularly in the northern part of the town, because of the upgrading works on the wastewater treatment plant. This is something that has been recurring for years upon years. We need a wastewater treatment plant that is befitting a town of the size of Swords. We need the greater Dublin drainage project to come in for the wider Dublin area, but the people of Swords are suffering.  We do not have our primary care centre yet and we do not have our bus service. Our MetroLink is ten years away and we have traffic gridlock. We do not have enough schools and we have a wastewater treatment plant that is absolutely buckling under the pressure. We welcome the houses. There were no mass protests about housing development in Swords. The majority of people who live there moved there, like myself, in the past 20 years and love living there. We know we need houses and we need sustainable communities, but we cannot deliver this unless we deliver the infrastructure with it.  I ask the Minister of State to have the Department of housing bring in some taskforce or infrastructure manager to monitor, lead and deliver what Swords needs at this point, whether it is a bus stop or a wastewater treatment plant. I do not believe there is a town as big as Swords anywhere else in the country that is undergoing a similar level of growth at this time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Marian Harkin  I thank Deputy Smith for raising this matter and for highlighting the significant population growth taking place in Swords. I am responding on behalf of the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage. I am interested to hear the Deputy say it is the third largest town in Ireland. In that context, I understand why he has raised these issues.  The Government fully recognises that the successful delivery of new housing must be supported by timely and co-ordinated investment in the infrastructure required to sustain vibrant and thriving communities. Through the housing activation office in my Department, we are working closely with local authorities, infrastructure agencies and service providers to ensure that housing and infrastructure are planned and delivered together.  Swords is a strong example of this approach in practice. As the population continues to grow, substantial investment is being made across a range of critical infrastructure areas to support both existing residents and future development. A key project is the \u20ac21 million R132 connectivity project, funded by the National Transport Authority, which is currently under construction. This project will improve transport connectivity, enhance road safety and strengthen active travel infrastructure, while also preparing the corridor for future strategic public transport investments, including MetroLink and Busconnects.  The Deputy also mentioned a significant issue with wastewater treatment. Alongside this, Uisce \u00c9ireann is progressing a major upgrade to the wastewater network along Balheary Road. This investment will provide capacity for almost 3,000 additional homes while improving the resilience of essential services in the area. It is a clear example of how targeted infrastructure investment can unlock housing and support sustainable growth. The Government has also established the \u20ac1 billion housing infrastructure investment fund, managed by the housing activation office, to accelerate the delivery of housing-enabling infrastructure nationwide. Under the first call of the fund, Fingal County Council was successful in securing support for a number of important projects, including the Fosterstown Link Road and associated road, active travel, water and wastewater infrastructure in Swords. These investments will help unlock significant additional housing capacity while supporting the long-term development of the area.  More broadly, Fingal County Council is progressing a range of complementary projects, including active travel schemes, public realm improvements and the development of the Swords cultural quarter. Together, these initiatives will enhance connectivity, improve quality of life and reinforce Swords\u2019 role as a sustainable and vibrant county town.  The Government remains committed to working with Fingal County Council and all relevant agencies to ensure the infrastructure required to support housing growth in Swords is delivered in a co-ordinated, strategic and timely manner. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Duncan Smith","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Duncan-Smith.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Duncan-Smith.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Duncan Smith  I thank the Minister of State for her response, which speaks to the issue I am raising. Again, she will sense the tone in which I am raising it. There is an awful lot happening and being built, but it is the co-ordination of these works that is the problem.  If I could take just three examples from the Minister of State's response, we have the Sword's cultural quarter which is closed at the Seatown Road. That is one project. The Seatown Road is connected to the R132, which is an old dual carriageway that is down to one lane for the foreseeable future. That is two projects. That is connected to the Balheary Road, where we have the new water main going in to allow for 3,000 new houses. That is a third project. That is three separate roads that are all in one network and are all closed or heavily restricted because of these works happening at the same time. This is impacting thousands of existing residents, and will do so for a significant period.  The works are happening and the homes are being built. Some infrastructure is going in to allow for more building, but there is a huge impact on the quality of life. There will be inconveniences, there is no doubt about it, but this is having a huge impact. People are unable to get to work, college and school on time, and will face those restrictions for the foreseeable future. There are no or very few alternatives because of the way Swords has been designed over the years. On top of that, we have the wastewater treatment plant and the upgrade works which are long-delayed and taking a long time. This is causing huge discomfort to Fingallian's GAA club, other sports clubs and people who cannot open their windows in a wide radius from that wastewater treatment plant.  The council and the Department are doing an awful lot, but there seems to be a gap in the co-ordination of these projects and the medium-term impact this is having on the quality of life for the people of Swords at this time. That is the point I am trying to get across. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  The Deputy has a tone of severe frustration. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Marian Harkin  The Government agrees that the delivery of housing and the delivery of infrastructure have to go hand in hand and creating sustainable communities requires investment, not only in homes, but as the Deputy said, in the transport, energy, water and community infrastructure that supports them. As he also noted, significant investment is already under way in Swords, whether it is the R132 connectivity project, the Balheary Road wastewater upgrade or the Fosterstown link road proposal under the housing infrastructure investment fund. I think that the Deputy accepts that all of those are helping or will help to address key infrastructure requirements while supporting future housing delivery. This demonstrates the value of co-ordinated planning, but in the context in which the Deputy has raised this, all I can say is that the housing activation office will continue to work closely with Fingal County Council, Uisce \u00c9ireann, the National Transport Authority, ESB Networks and other stakeholders to identify and address infrastructural constraints and to ensure that investment is aligned with housing growth. I suggest that this is how some of these concerns might be addressed, through co-ordination with a number of these organisations that are working to do this. I have no detail here or expertise, but to me that might be the only possible solution that is there. I can hear the Deputy's frustration and from what he says, I know that some action needs to be taken. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Strategic Infrastructure"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_45","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Road Safety","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_40","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_40","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_45","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Stanley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Stanley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Brian Stanley  The issue I am raising with the Minister of State is the increase in the number of injuries, including those involving young children, relating to e-scooters and e-bikes. Ten have been killed. Temple Street hospital consultants have been highlighting the number of serious injuries, including the fact that six children are currently in the intensive care unit. The Children's Health Ireland report released today shows the scale of the problem. Eighteen children have been admitted with serious brain injury in the past year. These are all serious injuries. Of those admitted with head injuries, 97% had fractured skulls and 53% required emergency brain surgery. This is a serious matter.  The current laws are not being enforced. The 20 km\/h speed limit is not being implemented. E-scooter drivers should be over 16. I have seen children of nine and ten years old on them. They are carrying passengers when they should not. They are on footpaths when they should not be on them. I see them in Dublin, Laois and everywhere else with no lights at night time, particularly in the winter months. I see it in every Laois town, and I have received complaints from every corner of the county about it.  The number of e-scooters and e-bikes has ballooned, but so has the number of serious injuries. Some are travelling at speeds of three times the legal limit. We have all had near misses. I am sure the Minister of State has. If people are shopping in the street or anything like that, they would nearly be crashed into by people on e-scooters. The situation is out of control, and that is only wording I can use for this.  We are dealing with e-scooters and e-bikes, but these are mechanically propelled vehicles. They are not toys. Some of them are capable of travelling at significant speeds comparable to petrol scooters, mopeds and small motorbikes that people need to have a licence to drive.  Some people are calling for a ban on them. I am not in favour of a ban, but we do need to take action quickly. A lot of people use them for work and necessary travel. They are economical to run, have almost zero carbon emissions, take up limited road space and are more environmentally friendly than cars and SUVs, of which there is an increasing number on the road. I do not think we should ban them, but we need to get this right.  What is required is proper regulations for these mechanically propelled vehicles - that is what they are - and for the garda\u00ed to have the training and powers to enforce new laws. The priority has to be enforcing the existing rules around speed limits, so that people stay within the 20 km\/h, and ensuring that hey have lights, do not carry passengers and are not on footpaths. These are basic things, but much more than that is needed because of the scale of what we are facing.  If people have to pass a test to drive a small motorbike or scooter, they should have to do the same thing for these e-bikes, some of which are as fast as small motorbikes or scooters and maybe even faster. Helmets need to be compulsory. People are suffering serious head injuries and head traumas. The consultants felt that they had to come out to the media and call on us to do this. We need to have registration. They can be registered when they are bought. We should know who owns them and they should third party insurance. If a driver crashes into someone and injures them, who picks up the medical bill for it? It is the unfortunate shopper.  There needs to be an urgency about this. It is a public safety issue, and the public are demanding action. Can this House bring in legislation as a matter of priority in September? I believe there is support for it across this House and the public would certainly support it, including some people who use e-scooters. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Marian Harkin  I thank the Deputy, and on behalf of the Minister for Transport, I want to thank him for raising this issue.  He is quite right. A lot of people are speaking about this. We have always been aware, but we have become more acutely aware in recent times, of the serious brain injuries sustained in many cases by children who use e-scooters and the inherent dangers in how e-scooters are being used.  From the Government's perspective, we introduced a comprehensive suite of regulations in 2024 to govern the safe use of e-scooters in public places. These include the Road Traffic (Electric Scooters) Regulations 2024 (SI 199 of 2024), which provides for technical standards and conditions for safe use, including a minimum age of 16 and a speed limit of 20 km\/h. The Road Traffic (Signs) Regulations 2024 (SI 200) provides that signs for bicycle use will also apply to e-scooters. The Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) (Amendment) Regulations 2024 (SI 222 of 2024) provides for traffic rules, including forbidding use on motorways, footpaths and pedestrianised areas. The Road Traffic (Use of Powered Personal Transporters) Regulations 2024 (SI 224 of 2024) provides that other types of powered personal transporters, PPT, and e-scooters that do not comply with the regulations will remain illegal to use in public places. There is also the previous regulation from the Road Traffic Act 1994, but I am not going to go into that at the moment. Key limitations are already in place in relation to speed restrictions of 20 km\/h and it is illegal for drivers to use them on a footpath, carry passengers or have a seat.  In relation to the Deputy\u2019s question, section 5 of SI 199 of 2024, Road Traffic (Electric Scooters) Regulations 2024, sets a minimum age of 16 for the use of these vehicles. Ongoing consideration is being given to restrict the supply of an e-scooter to persons under the age of 16 by including a provision in the upcoming road traffic Bill, similar to section 30 of the Road Traffic Act 2004.  E-scooters that do not conform with the e-scooter regulations are illegal for use on Irish roads and the enforcement of all road traffic legislation is a matter for An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Stanley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Brian Stanley  Unfortunately, I do not get any sense of urgency from the Minister of State that we are going to have laws introduced in September or October, and that is the crucial issue. Yes, we have rules now, and she listed them out in relation to the signs.  However, they are being ignored. The only place e-scooters are not being used is on the motorways, but they are being used extensively on footpaths and pedestrianised areas.  The type of scooters that do not comply remain illegal if they travel at more than 20 km\/h. E-bikes need to be treated the same. Some do multiples of that speed, and very few do less unless they are kids\u2019 toys. An ordinary e-scooter should not be treated as a toy. The 16-year-old age category is being completely ignored. I would appeal to parents who still think that these are children\u2019s toys. They need to wise up for the safety of their own children and the general public. There is a role for the Government, but there is also a role for the public, which I accept. The existing rules the Minister of State has set out here are not being implemented. Either garda\u00ed do not have the training or do not have the powers. That is the first thing.  Second, we must go further. Who covers the cost? If a pedestrian has a hip or a knee broken or, God forbid, something worse, who picks up the insurance cost? Why do we not have registration of ownership when they are bought so they are registered to an owner? Why is a helmet not compulsory? It is compulsory on a Honda 50, and some of these go much faster. We need to be careful. We need to have it for e-bikes as well. Why do the people who use them not have to know the rules of the road and pass a basic test? These are very basic requirements. If we do not do this, we are failing the public, and the safety of the public is our primary responsibility. We are also failing those people who drive them safely. We need to make sure that people can use them safely for work purposes and essential travel. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Marian Harkin  I thank the Deputy. In response to his question about the urgency of this, the Department of Transport is examining the issue of mandating the wearing of helmets, high-vis clothing and protective equipment for e-scooters and e-bikes, along with other road safety focused measures. Proposals in this regard are under consideration by Ministers. The Department is also considering the matter of registration for e-scooters. Any system of mandatory registration requires significant development work to act effectively and efficiently. A registration system for e-scooters would need to address various issues, including how to verify the identity of individuals who use them, safe and visible placement of registration plates and sufficient resourcing for the registration body. In addition, there are no harmonised technical specifications for e-scooters equivalent to the EU-type approval for other vehicle types in place across the EU. These issues will need to be carefully assessed and addressed. However, the Deputy should not think this means it is not being treated as a matter of huge concern and urgency.  As this will be my last opportunity in this D\u00e1il session, I thank you, a Cheann Comhairle, the Leas-Cheann Comhairle and all the staff here in D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann for their genuine support and for all the help they give us throughout the year. I think most of us are looking forward to some bit of a break. I wish everyone a nice break over the summer. I look forward to seeing everyone back here in September. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Many happy returns for a successful and fruitful recess. Thank you. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Road Safety"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_46","debateType":"debate","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/14","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/14\/dail\/2","houseCode":"dail","stage":"2","isBillStage":true,"showAs":"Waste Management (Single Household Waste Collection Service) Bill 2026: Second Stage [Private Members] (D\u00e1il)"}},"showAs":"Waste Management (Single Household Waste Collection Service) Bill 2026: Second Stage [Private Members]","counts":{"speechCount":20,"speakerCount":8},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_46","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marie Sherlock","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  I call Deputy Sherlock. The Government has indicated that it is opposing the Second Reading of the Bill. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marie Sherlock","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Marie Sherlock  I move: \u201cThat the Bill be now read a Second Time.\u201d  We in the Labour Party passionately believe that we need to have a serious overhaul of how waste is collected and regulated across every county in this country. In that context, I am very proud to see our Labour Party Bill proceed to Second Stage in the D\u00e1il today. The Bill is the Waste Management (Single Household Waste Collection Service) Bill 2026. This is an issue that I have been working on for a number of years, both in my time working for SIPTU and while working as a councillor elected to Dublin City Council. Two years ago, Deputy Mark Wall and I, when we were in the Seanad, brought forward a motion there. Today, we see that work coming to the D\u00e1il.  I warmly welcome all those who join us in the Visitors Gallery today, the residents from across Stoneybatter, Smithfield, Broadstone and Phibsborough, along with Rory Hawkins from SIPTU, who has joined us for this debate today.  I think it is fair to say that, three months ago, when Dublin City Council made its decision to finally start banning bin bags across communities in the constituency that I represent, it very much hit a nerve with residents. The council effectively made a policy decision but left it to the private bin companies to decide how to implement those changes. There was consternation at that result, and rightly so. For most households, the impact was going to be a doubling, trebling or even more of an increase in their existing waste costs. They were going to see a reduced incentive to reduce their waste because many would have to sign up to an annual standing charge as opposed to the pay-per-bag or pay-per-drop system they currently have. They were facing the prospect of the proliferation of unsightly bins sitting on the streets seven days a week. The reality is that many of the people in the constituency that I represent do not have a front garden or back garden. Their houses open onto narrow streets, yet very little account has been taken of that in the decision to move to wheelie bins or caddies.  With this outpouring of anger and frustration at the manner in which the changes are being handled by Dublin City Council, our communities have begun to see just how dysfunctional our waste system is. In recent weeks, I have seen a huge call for reform and an appetite for reform. That is why we have so many people sitting in on this final session of the D\u00e1il today before we rise for the summer. They passionately believe that we need to have a better system in place.  The announcement in April is phase 3 of Dublin City Council\u2019s plan to ban bags across 900 streets in the city that are currently exempt from bins. While the first two phases were in commercial areas, this current phase is the first attempt to introduce it in a residential area. There is an irony in terms of how it is being rolled out. Dublin City Council was able to negotiate for the installation of ten-tonne compactors in the commercial areas, yet when it came to the residential areas, I understand the council tried to negotiate with the bin collectors on the roll-out of shared collection systems, but to no avail. That pretty much sums up our dysfunctional system. Local authorities rely on private bin companies for waste collection, which is effectively a public service across our communities, yet our local authorities exert little or no power over them.  Our lopsided system means that multiple private bin companies get to drive the same roads in some areas and provide no service elsewhere. They have the luxury of driving past illegally dumped waste and litter on our streets, while local authorities have to spend millions every year cleaning up the mess. Providers get to charge what they want, with some companies making very handsome profits. They are the companies whose profits we are actually aware of, but many other companies are unlimited, so we do not know what they earn. The result is that we have serious underinvestment in public recycling and composting facilities.  Back in 2018, the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission said in very clear terms that the current waste management system in Ireland is inefficient, and that Ireland needs an economic regulator for waste companies. Eight years on, households remain at the mercy of unregulated price increases, and there is zero transparency over companies providing a crucial public utility. No other European city does it like this, and nor should we.  Our Bill sets out to make three fundamental changes to the Waste Management Act 1996. First, we provide for local authorities to be able to appoint a single operator for their local authority area. This would be a radical move away from what is called competition in the market to competition for the market. The reality is that section 2 and section 3 of the 1996 Act exclude local authorities from making waste collection arrangements in their area. Ironically, every time I submit a written parliamentary question to the Minister, and when I ask about waste management and local authorities, the Minister tells me that the statutory responsibility for decisions on waste collection arrangements, including any move towards franchise tendering, ultimately rests with the chief executive of each local authority.  I believe he is wrong on that, and, for whatever reason, the Department is misinterpreting the legislation. The reason I say that is that the Waste Management Act 1996 does confer powers on each local authority chief executive, but it was very clear in the High Court case Nurendale Ltd. v . Dublin City Council in 2009 that no chief executive could safely use those powers to restructure the waste collection market in his or her area. A chief executive cannot move to a franchise tendering system conferring exclusive rights without proper legislative underpinning. That is why we are here today.  Second, our Bill sets down conditions for the awarding of a waste management contract. It must specify the number of years. It must specify where exactly the contract applies because, again, we know that even in some pockets of Dublin, there is no waste collection service. We know that in some rural areas there is no service, but it also happens in urban areas. We also want to see a waiver scheme on grounds of personal hardship introduced and, crucially, coverage for all areas.  The third key part of our Bill is with regard to landlord responsibility. This is something that Dublin City Council and other local authorities are very much seeking from the Government. As a TD for Dublin Central, I am acutely aware of how very real comfort and deprivation live cheek by jowl. There is appalling exploitation of people right across my constituency who are in desperate need of appropriate accommodation and who are crammed into three- and four-bedroom houses where there could be 16 people. It is an inhumane squeezing of people into tenement-like conditions, and it is landlords who are facilitating it. To be fair, the least of the worries of many of those tenants is where they put their black bags, but we need to make sure that landlords are forced to have a waste management contract for every house or apartment they let.  We felt moved to introduce this Bill because we believe the privatised system of waste collection is not working. The theory of competition was supposed to deliver choice and affordable pricing but the evidence is very much to the contrary. We know that residents have faced extraordinary price increases in collection services in recent years. Panda\u2019s bin collection prices have risen by 43% since 2024. The City Bin Company increased its charges by 26% in the past two years. Greyhound\u2019s last increase was 48%, back in 2024, and we expect to see another announcement from it soon.  In May of this year, EU waste disposal rules came into force banning the export of waste beyond EU borders. That will force a further hike for households. The reality is that five years ago we were exporting about 70 million tonnes from our shores every year, and that has now doubled in five years.  The second key reason we believe we need to move away from the privatised system is that, ultimately, many of the private bin companies are effectively creaming profits from bin collection, with local authorities having to spend millions of euro. Dublin City Council has to spend millions of euro collecting 3,500 tonnes of illegally dumped waste on our streets every year. The reality is that we have serious underinvestment in recycling. The Government has effectively admitted that recycling rates have plateaued at about 41%, when we have serious targets to try to meet by 2030.  We know from looking at the accounts of some companies that they are making serious profits. We have no transparency as to what two of the biggest operators are earning because they are unlimited companies. Panda\u2019s parent company, Beauparc, sold for \u20ac1.3 billion in 2021 to an Australian investment firm. It is also co-owned by a US private equity firm. They are not in Ireland for the good of their health. They are here because they know they can make serious money. We know Greyhound\u2019s parent company is registered on the Isle of Man. Again, that speaks volumes about the types of company we are dealing with here.  Yesterday on the radio, the Irish Waste Management Association said it believed a conversation needed to be had about the price of what we were proposing here. I say to it: bring it on. Back in 2018, the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission very clearly called for an economic regulator. In 2020, we saw a price monitoring group, which involved a very pale shade of economic regulation and certainly not price regulation. It was just looking at the prices. We need to make sure that householders are paying a fair price.  The third key reason we need to move away from a privatised system of waste collection is that the promise of choice is failing. In my constituency, we see bin lorries traipsing around after one another, with all the congestion, confusion and diesel emissions that go with that. In Dublin 15 and other parts of Dublin, a single operator is effectively operating as a monopoly. There is no competition there. The company is hiking up prices and getting away with it.  I am very worried about the consolidation within the waste management sector. Back in 2012, analysis by my colleague in SIPTU, Michael Taft, showed that we had 81 bin companies across the country. Within a decade, by 2022, we were down to about 30 to 40. That number is going to contract in the future. Therefore, we will have extraordinary over-reliance on very large companies, with the State exerting little or no control over them. That is why we need to change our system. In transforming how we deal with waste in this country, I want to see the State take control of this vital public service. Ultimately, I see this legislation as a stepping stone towards local authorities providing this public service. For a variety of legal and practical reasons, however, we believe our Bill has to start in this place. Our Bill effectively provides for competition for the market as opposed to competition in the market. That distinction is important because, by tendering for a single operator, local authorities will be able to start controlling how precisely waste is collected.  It is important to say that, back in the 2000s, Dublin City Council, along with the three other Dublin local authorities, tried to tender for a single operator but failed. It failed because Panda, in the name of Nurendale Limited, brought it to the High Court and, effectively, it lost that case. It lost it because of EU competition law, but we believe the game-changer now is the 2014 EU concessions directive, which allows for tendering by a state, or an agency of the state, for services of general economic interest or general public interest, of which we believe waste is one. As we all know, waste management is not just about a private arrangement because, when it is done badly, it affects us all. That is why I want to see our local authorities moving from being just bystanders that license waste collection companies to actually controlling how the service is delivered.  I introduced this Bill because I do not believe the issue of litter and dumping on our streets, particularly in the communities I represent, where the issue of litter has existed for many years, is hopeless. I do believe change can be made. Inspiration can be taken from many European cities that have got their systems right. They have underground collection systems, compactors in their communities and innovative solutions. The way our system is set up ultimately does not allow for that investment, and I believe we need to change that. We also need to recognise the incredible work so many of our communities are doing against the odds to try to keep their areas clean. That is why I want to pay tribute to all the people who are here today, including Stoneybatter Pride of Place, Phibsboro Village Tidy Towns and all the people working within their communities to keep them clean.  The other key point in all of this is that, for many years, trade unions have spoken about the need to overhaul the system because of the wages, conditions and exploitation that have existed. I pay tribute to the More Power to You campaign. F\u00f3rsa, SIPTU and Connect are the three main unions behind it. At the end of the day, waste collection is a public service and the jobs should be decently paid. We spent a lot of time during the pandemic applauding those who had to go out to work, like those collecting our bins, when the rest of us got to stay at home, yet we know the terms and conditions in many of the companies are very poor.  Ultimately, this is very much about local issues, but we need national policy solutions. That is why we have brought forward our Bill. We are very disappointed to hear that the Government is opposing it. I want to pay tribute to colleagues like Deputy McAuliffe and others who sat on an Oireachtas working group on waste management in the previous D\u00e1il and Seanad. We believe we need to change how we do things. We might disagree on the precise detail, but all of us who sat around the table recognised that we need to have change. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment (Deputy Alan Dillon)  I welcome the opportunity to speak on the Waste Management (Household Waste Collection Service) Bill. I thank Deputy Sherlock and the Labour Party for bringing this legislation before the House. At the outset, I acknowledge that the Deputy has raised issues that are of real importance to households across the country. Reliable, affordable and environmentally sustainable waste collection services are essential public services. Every household should have confidence that their waste is being collected efficiently and managed responsibly and that the system supports Ireland's transition to a more circular economy.  Equally, households need to see that reducing, recycling and properly segregating waste not only benefits the environment but also reduces household waste costs. An effective waste collection system should reward positive environmental behaviour. I also recognise concerns relating to affordability, service quality, consistency of provision and illegal dumping. These are legitimate public policy issues and they deserve careful consideration.  However, while I acknowledge the intentions behind this Bill, the Government cannot support it. The principal reason is straightforward. The Bill seeks to legislate for a fundamental restructuring of Ireland's household waste collection market at the very time that Government is undertaking a comprehensive, evidence-based review of the future structure of that market. This is not about resisting reform, nor is it about defending the status quo . It is about ensuring that reform is informed by evidence. The Government has commissioned an independent study to examine the feasibility of moving Ireland's household waste collection system from the current side-by-side competition model to a franchise-based system. That study is examining the environmental, economic, operational and consumer implications of alternative market structures. It is considering issues such as service quality, competition, investment, affordability, environmental performance, implementation challenges and the wider impacts on the waste sector. Importantly, it is doing so independently and objectively.  The recommendations arising from that work will be considered as part of the updated waste action plan for a circular economy and the implementation of Ireland's second whole-of-government circular economy strategy in 2027. That is the appropriate policy process. If the evidence supports significant changes to the market structure, the Government will consider those recommendations carefully. If the evidence suggests improvements can be achieved through strengthened regulation, enhanced enforcement or targeted reforms within the existing framework, those options should also be considered. That is how good public policy should be made. It should be based on evidence rather than assumption. It should be informed by independent analysis rather than anecdote. It should also consider both intended and unintended consequences before major legislative changes are introduced. The Bill before us would effectively pre-empt that process. It would commit the State to one particular market model before Government has had the opportunity to consider the findings of the independent review it commissioned. I do not believe that is a responsible way to move forward and develop national policy.  The Bill assumes that replacing competition in the market with competition for the market will resolve many of the challenges facing household waste collection. However, that should not be taken as a given. In many instances, the greatest environmental and economic gains arise from strengthening the regulatory and economic measures that already underpin the existing market. Better outcomes may be achieved by improving the operation of the current system rather than replacing it entirely. That distinction is important. The objective of Government policy is not to favour one market model over another. Our objective is to maximise environmental outcomes, improve resource efficiency, provide high-quality services and support Ireland's transition to a circular economy.  The Bill focuses primarily on who collects household waste and how collection contracts are awarded. However, waste collection is only one component of Ireland's broader circular economy agenda. The waste action plan for a circular economy seeks to prevent waste arising in the first place, maximise reuse, improve recycling, support producer responsibility, encourage innovation and reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Similarly, the circular economy strategy recognises that achieving national and European objectives requires action across government, industry, local authorities and communities. Any reforms to household waste collection should therefore be considered as part of the wider policy framework.  We should also be careful not to assume that changing market structure automatically delivers better environmental outcomes. The Bill contains no evidence demonstrating that moving to an exclusive franchise model would significantly increase recycling rates, reduce waste generation or materially improve Ireland's ability to meet its obligations under European waste and circular economy legislation. Those outcomes depend on many factors, including household behaviour, public awareness, producer responsibility schemes, recycling infrastructure, market development and effective regulation. Changing contractual arrangements alone will not necessarily address those challenges. That is why the Government believes that policy development in this area must remain evidence-based and proportionate.  There is no single model of household waste collection that has been shown to be universally superior. Across Europe, countries use a variety of systems, including municipal services, regulated competitive markets, concession arrangements and hybrid models. The success of any system depends not simply on market structure but on effective regulation, enforcement, infrastructure, investment, pricing mechanisms and consumer participation. The Government's objective is not to promote one model for ideological reasons. Our objective is to identify the model that delivers the best outcomes for Ireland. That is precisely what the independent feasibility study was commissioned to do. The House should allow that work to conclude before legislating for a permanent restructuring of the sector.  Deputy Sherlock has suggested that a franchise model could address issues such as illegal dumping and rising household costs. These are important concerns, and I accept that. No Member of this House underestimates the seriousness of illegal dumping. It damages our environment, imposes costs on local authorities and communities and undermines confidence in the waste management system. The Government remains fully committed to tackling illegal dumping through stronger enforcement, such as the most recent increase in litter fines, improved surveillance, enhanced compliance activity and public awareness. However, illegal dumping is a complex behavioural and enforcement challenge. There is no evidence before this House demonstrating that introducing exclusive franchise areas would, in itself, significantly reduce illegal dumping. Similarly, affordability is influenced by a number of factors, including labour costs, fuel prices, treatment costs, landfill levies, vehicle investment, inflation and regulatory requirements. There is no evidence that changing to a franchise system would automatically reduce those underlying costs. Indeed, depending on how exclusive contracts are designed, competitive pressures may diminish over the lifetime of a franchise agreement. These are precisely the questions being examined through the Government's independent feasibility study around the unintended consequences.  Another important consideration is investment certainty. Ireland requires continued investment across the waste and resource sector. We need investment in collection infrastructure, recycling capacity, material recovery technologies, organic waste treatment, digital systems and innovation. Those making long-term investments require certainty regarding Government policy. Introducing fundamental legislative change before the current review is completed risks creating uncertainty for operators, investors and local authorities. The Government does not believe that such uncertainty would serve the interests of households or the wider circular economy.  I now wish to address two elements of the Bill in particular, those being the proposed hardship waiver scheme and the provisions relating to landlords. At the heart of Ireland's waste policy is the polluter pays principle. This is a fundamental principle of European environmental law. It reflects the principle that those who generate waste should bear the costs associated with its management and that pricing signals should encourage waste prevention, reuse and recycling. The Government fully recognises that some households face genuine financial hardship. However, the question is not whether support should be provided. The question is how support should be provided. Waste charges are designed to recover the cost of providing the service while encouraging environmentally responsible behaviour. Introducing mandatory waivers through waste collection through waste collection permits risks weakening those incentives.  Furthermore, the Bill does not explain how those costs would be funded. The costs do not disappear and they must ultimately be borne by other households, service providers or the State. Where support is required, the Government believes broader social protection measures are a more appropriate and transparent mechanism.  The Bill also proposes to place responsibilities on landlords regarding waste collection in rented residential properties. Again, I understand the objective behind this proposal. However, in most rented properties it is tenants, not landlords, who generate household waste and make decisions regarding waste segregation, recycling and presentation for collection. The polluter pays principle requires responsibility to rest, as far as possible, with the person generating the waste. Landlords are generally not in a position to supervise day-to-day waste management practices within occupied properties. The Government therefore has significant concerns regarding both the practicality and effectiveness of these provisions.  More broadly, the Government believes Ireland's principal challenge is not simply how household waste is collected. Our challenges include how we prevent waste from arising, how we can increase reuse and recycling, how we support producer responsibility, how we reduce emissions and how we build a genuinely circular economy. Changing the market structure for household waste collection is only one potential element of that broader agenda. That is why the Government is updating the waste action plan for a circular economy and implementing Ireland's second whole-of-government circular economy strategy. It is also why we commissioned an independent feasibility study before making decisions on major structural reform. This is the responsible course of action. It allows us to consider evidence. It allows us to continue to engage stakeholders and it allows us to develop reforms that are effective, proportionate and capable of delivering long-term environmental and economic benefits.  The Government shares many of the aspirations underpinning this Bill. We want high-quality services, strong environmental performance, affordable services for households, to eliminate illegal dumping and to accelerate Ireland's transition to a circular economy. However, we do not believe this Bill provides the right mechanism to achieve those objectives. For the reasons I have outlined, and while acknowledging the constructive intentions of Deputy Sherlock, the Government cannot support the Bill at this time. Instead, we are continuing to pursue an evidence-led reform, informed by independent analysis, stakeholder engagement and the updated waste action plan for a circular economy in order that any future changes to Ireland's waste collection system are based not on assumption, but real facts and evidence and deliver lasting benefits for households, communities and the State. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ivana Bacik  I commend my Labour colleague, Deputy Sherlock, on her work on introducing the Waste Management (Single Household Waste Collection Service) Bill 2026. It is a tribute to her tenacity that she has worked for so many years on this issue. It is the culmination of a good deal of work across her constituency of Dublin Central and I welcome her visitors in the Gallery from Stoneybatter, Phibsborough, Smithfield and Broadstone. From canvassing alongside Deputy Sherlock for our candidate Ruth O'Dea in the recent Dublin Central by-election I know just how pressing an issue waste collection is in the constituency. It came up extensively on the doors. People were very concerned about the changes that are proposed. There were very concerned also about all sorts of issues like illegal dumping, as Deputy Sherlock mentioned, the proliferation of different companies - they see quite a number of different lorries going up and down the same streets - not to mention the seagulls and foxes puling apart binbags on the street.  My constituents in Dublin Bay South express similar concerns to me daily. In Portobello, across the south-east inner city and across the constituency I hear from constituents and experience myself these very same issues and concerns about waste collection and how these services are run in Dublin. For residents and businesses alike it is fair to say, as Deputy Sherlock has done, that the waste system is currently dysfunctional. Just today I and other local representatives got an email from the owner of two restaurants in Dublin city centre about this issue. The Minister of State\u2019s brief includes not only the circular economy but also small business. The restaurant owner said he fully supported the council\u2019s ambition to improve waste management to keep our city cleaner but that commercial waste regulations introduced since December 2025 are creating serious practical difficulties for many hospitality businesses, especially those operating from older city centre buildings with limited storage. He went on to say one of his greatest frustrations is that the regulations are making it harder to recycle. That is a real concern when we are all so committed to seeing the circular economy work and to meeting climate targets on waste. The owner says he no longer has space to accommodate additional recycling bins, cannot leave recyclable waste out for collection and cannot leave flattened cardboard outside for collection. Private waste companies must send a vehicle to collect this directly from premises. This is costly, inefficient and unnecessary. He makes a number of other points but his argument is the burden of solving the city\u2019s waste problem has been transferred from the council to small business, many of which have no physical means of complying and will incur significant additional cost.  For householders expressing the concerns I and Deputy Sherlock have outlined, and for small businesses too, waste collection services are simply not working. That is why we need to see a change. The Bill Deputy Sherlock and the Labour Party are proposing is not one we suggest is a silver bullet or a panacea but it offers one small, constructive mechanism to address the dysfunction in waste services. It is a source of great disappointment to me, Deputy Sherlock and the Labour Party to hear the Minister of State say the Government is opposing this Bill. He has acknowledged the Government shares many of the aspirations underpinning this Bill. We want high-quality services and strong environmental performance. We all recognise waste collection is a climate issue and an environmental issue. We all support the move to a circular economy and want to eliminate illegal dumping. This being the case, why can the Minister of State not reconsider his view and let this Bill pass Second Stage? We will be very happy to work with him on developing the broader, evidence-based proposals he speaks about so rightly and which we are in support of. We would have been glad to work with him and Government on how to amend the Bill and work on a broader framework for waste management that addresses the dysfunction.  I am concerned to hear the Minister of State say there is an independent feasibility study without giving any timeline. I understand that was due to be published some months ago. Perhaps he or his Government colleagues might address when we are going to see that study report and hear what precisely are the new mechanisms the Government is proposing to fix the dysfunctional waste system. I do not mean just in Dublin, though Deputy Sherlock and I are focusing on Dublin and most of the TDs present are Dublin ones, as clearly this has ramifications across the country and the dissatisfaction and the concerns Deputy Sherlock\u2019s constituents and mine are expressing are ones felt across the board. We are therefore disappointed at the Government\u2019s decision to oppose the Bill.  This is very much a broader issue for the Labour Party. Waste management is an essential public service. It is a climate issue, as I have said, but also one about public services. We want to see remunicipalisation. We have been working with the trade unions on this. We have supported SIPTU and F\u00f3rsa\u2019s More Power to You campaign, which is a fight for stronger public services. We want to see a move, as Deputy Sherlock has it in the Bill, from competition in the market to competition for the market and this Bill would represent an important positive step on that journey to quality public services provided by the State and to remunicipalisation. Deputy Sherlock has set out the detailed provisions in the Bill. I ask the Minister of State again to reconsider this and support the Bill past Second Stage. It is a Bill that is of significant interest to constituencies across the country and so many people, like the business owner who emailed me, and many individual householders across the country are, out of frustration, addressing waste, illegal dumping and litter issues by themselves. I pay tribute to Tidy Towns organisations. In Dublin Bay South we have superb Tidy Towns organisations that I am proud to work with from Ringsend and Sandymount across to Portobello in my area to Rathgar, Rathmines, Terenure, Donnybrook and Ballsbridge.  We see really important work being done by Tidy Towns organisations. They are addressing what is currently a real problem with litter collection and waste management in this city and this country. I urge the Minister of State to support the Bill on Second Stage and let us continue the debate about how we can improve services.  Since we are on the last sitting day, I want to thank the Ceann Comhairle, her staff, the ushers, the security staff and all the support staff, catering staff and everyone in the House who makes our lives and work environment better. I wish all our colleagues a good recess and I hope we return refreshed and reinvigorated. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Thank you very much, Deputy, and the same to you. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mark Ward  I thank Deputy Sherlock for bringing forward this legislation to bring bin collections back to public control. I am disappointed but not surprised that the Government is opposing this legislation. Fine Gael has a long history and policy of privatising public services. It has not worked in housing, water or transport and it definitely has not worked in waste management. By his own admission, the Minister of State knows there is a problem here because he would not have commissioned a report in relation to side-by-side competition otherwise. I am not sure that some of the issues the Minister of State raised could not have been teased out during pre-legislative scrutiny. Then, if they were not sorted out at that stage, the Minister of State had the opportunity to vote down the Bill but he did not even give it a chance. It has been a long-standing policy of Sinn F\u00e9in to bring waste management back to public control. Privatisation has failed ordinary people. Bin companies act like a cartel in how they raise their prices. When one company increases its price, the rest follow. I reported this practice to the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, CCPC, when I was a councillor in 2016, as referenced by the Deputy.  Earlier this year, Panda increased its prices by 9% for customers. Ordinary people are being pushed to the pin of their collar. No one's wages have gone up by 9% in the past year so nobody's bill should go up by 9% in the same time. Some bin companies have even increased their recycling fees, as the deposit and return scheme has reduced the amount of waste they recycle. It effectively means that people are paying more for less now.  We have a situation that allows multiple bin trucks to operate on the same street. On my road there could be three different companies coming down the road, sometimes at the same time. This goes against everything we are trying to achieve to make waste collection more environmentally friendly. Sinn F\u00e9in has raised the idea of taking waste management back into public control in the D\u00e1il on several occasions. In 2019, I came in here after a by-election. I had nine sitting days before the general election was called. In those nine days I managed to introduce a Bill co-signed with Deputy Cullinane. It was a combination of the work I was doing on the council and the work Deputy Cullinane was doing in the D\u00e1il. This legislation was to appoint an independent regulator for waste management with an aim of reducing fees. At the time, we had engagement with SIPTU and F\u00f3rsa, which backed this change in policy.  The Dublin city task force also recommended a single bin operator. In 2022, Dublin City Council commissioned independent research which looked at similar-sized cities to Dublin and compared their waste management systems. Dublin was an outlier. It was the only city that was fully privatised. In other jurisdictions, cities of a similar size at least had some part of their bin collection in public control.  Since bin collections were privatised, illegal dumping has been commonplace in Dublin. I am probably paraphrasing the Minister of State when he says there is no evidence that privatisation has led to more illegal dumping. That is the gist of what I thought he was saying. I can only go by what I see with my own eyes. I grew up in north Clondalkin back in 1980s. We did not have much. It was an area of disadvantage but it was a lot cleaner then than it is today. Illegal dumping has no place in our communities. People who do it need to stop because they are affecting all our communities.  In response to a parliamentary question of mine, the Minister for the environment stated that over \u20ac27 million is given to local authorities for anti-dumping initiatives. In 2025, South Dublin County Council alone, in my own area, spent over \u20ac2 million to tackle illegal dumping. This money could be better used to enhance our communities. We have sports clubs and community groups that are always looking for funding. We should be able to give them this funding rather than tackling illegal dumping.  Over the last number of years, the nature of what is in our waste has changed. For example, in 2012, there were no problems with nitrous oxide. However, earlier this week thejournal.ie reported that 160,000 nitrous oxide canisters end up in Irish waste facilities every year. This shows the scale of the problem. Over 13,000 nitrous oxide canisters have been collected by the local authorities in Dublin in recent years. There were 120 explosions over a two-week period in waste compactors in Ireland. This is costly and dangerous. I introduced legislation to tackle this scourge but the Government delayed it by nine months which means it will not be read again until October. We have youth health issues and environmental issues with nitrous oxide. The Government really needs to take this seriously. I gift-wrapped the solution but the Government kicked it down the road.  Sinn F\u00e9in is happy to support this Bill. The process of returning waste management to public control can begin with having one company per local authority. A single bin operator per local authority would reduce the number of bin trucks on streets and should reduce the incidence of illegal dumping. This would lead to a decrease in prices, which could be set out in the tendering process. We would like to see this go further by the introduction of an independent regulator. We are drafting our own legislation that will do this, as well as the remunicipalisation of waste and the introduction of a fee waiver. The Minister of State mentioned costs and how this would be paid for. That could be part of the tendering process as well and, again, could be teased out in pre-legislative scrutiny.  We would also allow for local authorities to re-enter the market. The independent regulator would set and review standards, prices for customers and the criteria for workers to be able to join a union, which is really important. Many of the bin companies are not unionised at the moment. As I said already, we introduced similar legislation in 2019.  I am probably the last Sinn F\u00e9in person standing before the recess. I thank the Ceann Comhairle and all the staff for their help over the year and their tireless work that keeps this place going. I hope everybody gets a chance to get out and enjoy the good weather and has some sort of a break over the summer. I will see you all after the recess. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Thank you, Deputy Ward. I look forward to seeing you in September. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Gary Gannon  I want to acknowledge Deputy Sherlock for her work in bringing forward this Bill. We in the Social Democrats will be supporting it. It is a shame that the Minister of State is not willing to engage further than to simply vote it down on the promise that a review will be released in an unspecified time. As somebody who believes in local government and local elected representatives, I want to acknowledge those in Dublin Central and the north inner city and Dublin 7 who do tireless work to advocate on behalf of the residents, many of whom are here today. That is why we are here and what is motivating us to come in here is the removal of the derogation for bags.  I will talk about that in a couple of minutes but before I do I want to come back to some of the things the Minister of State said in his opening speech, particularly the last paragraph. The Minister of State said:  Instead, we will continue to pursue evidence-led reform informed by independent analysis, stakeholder engagement and the updated waste action plan for the circular economy, so that any future changes to Ireland's waste collection systems are based, not on assumption but on evidence and delivers lasting benefits for households, communities and the environment.  Does the Minister of State consider the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission to be an independent body that uses evidence to come to its conclusions? The Dublin city task force was commissioned by Simon Harris and was chaired by David McRedmond from An Post. He engaged with the evidence and with stakeholders and came to the same determination, namely, that what we have at present for waste management services, not only in Dublin but nationally, is no longer tolerable. It has led to a system that is clearly not efficient or not suitable for the purpose intended. We need reform on a scale much broader than even what we are talking about today. There should be a process of the remunicipalisation of waste management. That is not an assumption. Nor is it an assumption to say that streets such as the ones I represent in Stoneybatter have narrow pathways. If they remove the capacity to leave out a bag and introduce a requirement to put out a wheelie bin instead, I will not be able to get a pram or a wheelchair past. It will create a scenario where vulnerable people will simply not be able to get up their street for potentially three days because there will be a multitude of different providers steaming up these streets, which were never created for such large vehicles.  This will mean that people simply will not be able to get through their locality easily. That is not an assumption. It will shortly be the lived reality for people in Dublin 7 as a result of the removal of the derogation relating to plastic bags. I can see the logic of that up to a point. We have a scenario where seagulls and foxes are tearing at these bags. Rubbish is being strewn along the street and that cannot continue. However, the solution is not to remove the means by which a person can simply walk, use their wheelchair or push a pram down the street. Those things should not be in competition with each other.  The remunicipalisation of waste is going to cost money. That is a simple fact, but public services often should operate at a loss. We have created a scenario where large-scale private operators are generating an absolute fortune for themselves but where the payback for the community is a service that often does not meet the standard envisaged. We simply cannot continue along those lines.  There is a lot in this Bill that I will be supporting, but we need action that happen quickly rather than being obliged to wait for a review that will released after an unspecified period. The Competition and Consumer Protection Commission released a report in 2018, which highlighted Dublin as an outlier in terms of having absolutely no control over its waste. The commission updated its report in 2025 and stated, \"The current market structure will never properly deliver for the Irish public. A policy change is long overdue. That is a competition authority saying there is no competition for the market. We all have to open our eyes to that. We probably do not need any more reviews. I appreciate that there is a review coming. I ask the Minister of State to engage with Dublin City Council on something more urgent. The derogation relating to rubbish bags will end in October. The ending of the derogation has been delayed for three months as a result of the advocacy of councillors at local level. We cannot have a scenario that when October comes, people will simply not be able to walk the streets in the Stoneybatter area If the Minister of State is not going to support Deputy Sherlock's Bill, maybe he can support an appeal from all of us to engage with the local authority about finding a solution that is much better than the one people are quite literally dreading at the moment.  I thank the Ceann Comhairle so much for her work over the past year. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  That is much appreciated, and by the staff too. I call Deputy McAuliffe. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  In case I forget to do so at the end, I take this opportunity to thank all of the people who work here. This is a workplace, and I often remark that when we leave here at 11 p.m. or midnight on a Wednesday, the people we pass on the way out are often the first people we pass on the way in at 8 a.m. or 9 a.m. the following day when the work of D\u00e1il is starting again. It is not a normal workplace, but it is a great place for people to work in together. I acknowledge the huge work the staff do here in extraordinary circumstances.  I rise to speak in favour of the Bill. I would like to see it proceed to Committee Stage. That is not because, on the last day of term, I have caught some sort of rebellious fever. I made a commitment to Deputies Gannon and Sherlock in 2019 in an agreement we signed together to pursue the issue of remunicipalisation. It was the right thing to do then and it is the right thing to do now.  It is not an accident that there are many Dublin-based Deputies in the House for this debate. Even within Dublin, there is disagreement among different political parties as to whether remunicipalisation is necessarily the way forward. Some of our colleagues in Dublin's county councils are often quite happy with the service they have or may have different views from us in the city. Deputy Mark Ward referenced the independent research which Dublin City Council commissioned in regard to this matter and which shows that councillors are of the view that greater control by the local authority is the way to proceed.  To break that down a little, the issues Deputies Gannon and Sherlock are having in the city centre are vastly different from the ones that are relevant in my constituency. We do not have an issue with bags. Nor do we have the same street structures or networks. It is entirely appropriate that there are different ways of collecting waste in different areas. I often think that this House over-regulates what happens at local government level. When I see legislation relating to licences for tables and chairs on pavements, I am aghast at the fact that we are sometimes so involved in local authority affairs. We should be empowering local authorities to make more decisions, including on local taxation. In the area of waste, we should enable local councillors to make decisions----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Gary Gannon  Hear, hear. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  -----to put in place waste solutions that suit their areas. If this means that there is a different solution in Dublin City Council's area than in the other local authority areas across the county, then that is how it should be. Unfortunately, that power rests with the chief executive. Despite councillors and the elected representatives of a city wanting something different, they are not empowered to do take action.  I would like the Bill to proceed to Committee Stage, particularly as this debate is only half of the discussion. Deputy Gannon is right. The Government believes that if Dublin City Council wanted to establish its own waste collection service tomorrow, it could do so. Do not forget that Dublin City Council decided to close its waste collection service and to withdraw from the market. The council did not privatise its service, it withdrew its service. It was open to the council to do that. The reality is that in the absence of the local authority having the financial ability to remunicipalise the service, no chief executive is going to make the decision in that regard.  As stated, the debate on the Bill is one half of the discussion. If we are saying that remunicipalisation is the solution, in some ways this Bill could send us in the wrong direction if it is not matched on the other side. For example, what is proposed in the Bill would provide competition. One downside - this is something I would be cautious about - is that if competition for the market were introduced, it would be private operators that would tender in the first round. This would mean that we could see a scenario where one private company would win the tender in all four Dublin local authority areas. As a result, we would essentially have one waste company. We could see other waste companies collapse or withdraw, and we would then be left in a second round with no company other than the one to which I refer proceeding to tender. That is one possibility.  I pay tribute to Deputies Sherlock, Gannon, Ward and others. We discussed all these potential outcomes and we know that what is proposed would not be a silver bullet. It would give the local authority control, however. It would also give it more power. It would allow it to say that in the context of my area of Finglas, it is not appropriate that because an area is more affluent, people living in that road have access to five bin companies and because somewhere else is less affluent, it is stuck with one bin company. In some cases, bin companies will not even go into certain places or will insist that residents have to bring their wheelie bins up a hill or out onto a main road. That is not right, but there is no way of regulating it because we have competition in the market not competition for the market.  I do hear what the Minister of State says in regard to the review. There are many in government who believe that, for a range of reasons, including environmental reasons, matters relating to the circular economy and so on, competition for the market has its positive benefits. In the context of the previous Government, some of our Green Party colleagues were also supportive of this for a range of other reasons relating to delivering the circular economy.  From what I hear, one outcome of the review could be the creation of a franchised service. The Minister of State\u2019s commentary, in which he went on to explain all the negatives of a franchised service, does not fill me with hope. I ask him and my colleague Deputy Darragh O\u2019Brien, if they cannot provide a national framework, to consider whether they could empower local authorities to make the decisions to which I refer themselves.  Deputy Sherlock stated that no other capital city runs its business this way. That is because they are capital cities. Capital cities should in a position to make way more decisions about everything that happens in their area. If Dublin City Council had been allowed address the housing crisis back in 2012, 2013 or 2014, when it was impacting the city far more than anywhere else, we would have been ahead of the curve. We should be allowing Dublin City Council, if its elected representatives so choose, to establish both competition for the market and its own bin service if it so wishes.  Deputy Gannon is right. This is going to involve difficult political choices, particularly as the waiver system that was there came at a cost.  It was a direct cost. I think it cost nearly \u20ac3 million every year. Councillors had to vote every year for that money and that meant that \u20ac3 million went on that waiver and it was not available for other services like parks, libraries and so on. That is what local councillors do. They make those decisions. Sometimes we do not trust our councillors enough and I say that because it was a Fianna F\u00e1il Government that removed the powers of local councillors in regard to waste. It was done because there were not brave decisions being made on large-scale waste disposal and all of those reasons but we have moved on in Ireland. We have far better, committed local representatives. There is a very obvious demand by the people who are elected by Dublin city to change the way they collect their waste. This is something that national government should not be involved. Let them get on with it. Empower them to do it. Let them make the popular and unpopular choices that are part of that.  If I was in the Minister of State's place, I would allow the Bill go to Second Stage. We would need significant amendment and other elements to it but I would allow the debate to take place. In the absence of that, I ask that the Minister of State takes on board the comments that have been made here in the House by Members. Should he have the final review and the outcome, he should consider allowing Dublin city to do its own thing. Maybe it should not be limited it to just Dublin city and he should consider allowing any local authority that chooses to collect its own waste to do it in its own way. It is not rocket science. It is waste collection. They should, at the very least, be allowed to decide how that is done. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Roderic O'Gorman  I thank Deputy Sherlock for drafting and bringing forward this legislation. The Green Party has long pushed for household waste collection to be brought back under public control. This proposal is a good example of how we might do this without maybe opting for full remunicipalisation and the risks that could entail in respect of the burden it could place on local authorities.  Waste collection needs to be seen as a public service that needs to be fully integrated into our circular economy frameworks. This Bill would create a situation where we can retain an element of competition but it would be for a market rather than within a market. That would avoid a lot of the inefficiencies and risks we in the current model. The solution is to rationalise the current system, put local authorities back at the centre of waste management processes and use this to get a better handle on pricing and illegal dumping through contracts that are right for each specific area, instead of the one-size-fits-all model we have at the moment that is not actually working anywhere.  The second part of this legislation, which would place a direct duty on landlords to ensure an adequate waste collection service for their tenants, is really important. This mirrors draft legislation that my colleague Councillor Janet Horner was involved with in 2024, which would have significantly helped with illegal dumping in urban areas. This Bill also tackles significant inefficiencies that emerge under the current competition within the market model. Under the current system, it is not uncommon to see several bin lorries from different companies driving down the exact same residential street on different days of the week. Under a single permit model, we would have rationalised routes that access all homes at the same time. This clearly does not make sense from either a cost or admissions perspective.  It would be remiss of me not to specifically reference Dublin as I know the issues this Bill addresses are in some ways most acute in certain parts of our city. My colleagues on Dublin City Council have been doing positive work in this space. Green Party councillors in Dublin have founded and led on the litter and waste committees for the city and on funding additional resources. Some 100 extra staff have been hired to the public domain team to tackle waste and dumping and our councillors will continue to fight for a cleaner and greener Dublin.  My colleague Councillor Janet Horner and our former Green Party TD Neasa Hourigan drafted a landlord waste contract Bill in 2024 to make it the landlord's responsibility to ensure that tenants have a waste contract in place. It is really positive to see that aspects of that Bill are included in the Bill that Deputy Sherlock has introduced. Councillor Horner succeeded in passing a motion in 2024 declaring a litter and dumping emergency in the inner city, and this was followed by a detailed position paper on what the future of waste management in the city might look like, several elements of which are reflected in the Bill. Again, that is something I really welcome. Importantly, that research examined best-practice examples in other cities, where each example has limitations and the approach of privatised municipal providers for Dublin has clearly failed the city, its resident and visitors. Too often, waste issues are characterised as a behavioural issue rather than recognising a poorly designed system that makes this system inevitable. Dubliners deserve a better answer than being blamed personally for the system's failure.  A single waste provider for the whole of Dublin city was recommended in the past 18 months by the Taoiseach's Dublin city task force report. A report is due to be provided by the Department investigating the feasibility of this. However, as with so many of the report's recommendations, that has yet to materialise. It just seems there is no urgency behind the recommendations of the task force anymore and instead of trying to deliver it, the Government is spending time looking for a political excuse and someone else to blame for why it has done nothing.  It is important to understand that a waste system that works everywhere in the country does not work in the inner city. This is due to several factors, including short-term tenancies, a high number of tourist lettings, flats, apartments, terraced houses and an overall lack of storage space provided for wheelie bins. Despite it being mandatory for households to be able to separate their organic waste, this remains practically impossible for a significant proportion of inner-city homes, as wheelie bins cannot be stored in flats or terraced homes. In the Dublin Central area, an average of 50 tonnes per month of illegally dumped waste is being removed by the council. It is a huge amount of waste, and this is more than is collected in an entire year from whole counties elsewhere in the country.  Our current model of waste management is a direct contributor to this. The status quo is simply leaving Dublin communities to suffer and it is clear again that while the one-size-fits-all approach that is applied to waste collection in our country might suit some of the suburban areas, it absolutely does not suit our city centre communities.  Waste is often an affordability issue as well. Not all households, particularly those in urban areas, have suitable spaces for storing wheelie bins. They have no outside spaces and, of course, they are not allowed keep them on the footpaths. This means that in many areas, bags are the notional solution but these cause issues with seagulls or foxes or are intermingled with illegally dumped bags. The net result is our footpaths are strewn with waste.  Dublin City Council recently rolled out a system of waste compactors in the core areas of the city centre. These seem to have been working well and it is actually similar to what is seen in a lot of cities across the Continent. Such a system could work here and would avoid people having to store bins in their homes, which I know is a significant concern for residents in areas like Stoneybatter and Smithfield. It was something I heard about a lot during the recent by-election campaign.  One of the biggest criticisms of the current privatised system has to be how ineffective it has been on keeping waste costs down. I know from my own area how many times residents have raised issues of seemingly arbitrary price increases and extremely opaque pricing structures implemented by the large waste companies. Many have also pointed to the illusion of choice in the current system, where multiple providers are all essentially providing the exact same service at the exact same price and are increasing prices in lockstep. It ends up conferring no benefits on households at all. These costs then end up disproportionately impacting families who are already struggling to make ends meet. Having children under the age of three adds to bin costs. Often, elderly families or a family with a member who has a disability have additional waste costs that all add up. A single provider would, I hope, allow local authorities to apply downward pressure on prices and keep them consistent for the duration of a multi-year contract with that particular waste provider.  I again thank Deputy Sherlock for bringing forward the proposed changes outlined in the Bill. We know this does not end here. A lot more work needs to be done to deliver a system that is simpler for users, incentivises and helps a greater volume of recycling and waste recovery and will ultimately lead to a greener environment for all our communities, both urban and rural.  On a final note, a Cheann Comhairle, I give my thanks to you, all the staff in Leinster House and all the ushers and caterers for their work over this term.  I know Leinster House does not shut down for the next two months but I hope the pace will be a little less onerous and people are able to get a break. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Much appreciated. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment (Deputy Alan Dillon)  I thank all the Deputies who contributed to today's debate. I acknowledge and appreciate the thoughtful and constructive manner in which this debate has engaged with a really important issue. The one broad consensus and fundamental point that has been raised is that we all want a household waste collection system that is affordable, reliable and environmentally sustainable but also has the capacity to support Ireland's transition to a more circular economy. We want to continue to invest in ensuring we have cleaner communities and higher recycling rates. Deputy Sherlock made that point. We want to reduce illegal dumping and indeed we want a waste service that meets the needs of our householders, communities and businesses.  We also want to see a well-designed waste collection system that not only delivers environmental benefits but also provides householders with the opportunity to reduce their own household waste costs through reducing residual waste, correctly segregating recyclable materials and correctly segregating organic materials. All this can contribute to minimising disposal costs while contributing to our circular economy objectives.  I acknowledge Deputy Sherlock bringing the Bill forward. It provides us with the clear and genuine desire to improve the household waste collection system and to address the concerns that many have in regard to service provision, affordability and environmental outcomes. Those concerns are legitimate and deserve careful consideration. I also acknowledge Deputy McAuliffe for the constructive points he made.  As I outlined, however, the Government does not believe this Bill represents the appropriate means to address those challenges. As I said, the central proposal contained in the Bill is to replace the current household waste collection market with a mandatory franchise model. That is a really significant structural reform that has potentially far more implications for householders, local authorities, waste operators and the wider circular economy. That is precisely why the Government is opposing the Bill. It relates to the requirement for robust evidence, which involves looking at the pros and cons. I genuinely do not believe a CCPC report or a local authority report has that robust, evidence-led, fact-finding analysis.  As I said, the Government commissioned the independent report and study to examine the feasibility of transitioning Ireland's household waste collection system from the current side-by-side system to a more franchised model. That work examines the environmental, economic and operational implications and considers the experience of other jurisdictions and specific circumstances that apply here in Ireland. Importantly, the purpose of that study is not to validate a predetermined outcome. It is to provide an objective evidence base upon which further policy decisions can be made. Regarding the wider objectives, namely, to deliver better environmental outcomes, support householders and encourage investment, we need to continue to ensure we have investment in more innovative recycling centres. We have a lack of capacity so we need to continue that, and investment certainty is really important in that regard but also to enable Ireland to meet both our national and European obligations, which are far reaching. These will all benefit from a stable and predictable policy framework. That certainty is really important as we want to continue to invest in our waste collection system.  I again thank Deputy Sherlock for bringing the Bill forward and look forward to continuing our engagement with Members of this House. I thank the Ceann Comhairle, members of staff and everyone in Leinster House for their work over the past number of months. I wish them a very happy summer and wish the Mayo team, its manager Andy Moran and all the supporters who will travel up to Croke Park Sunday week for the All-Ireland final well. It will be a very exciting day and we hope they can deliver this time. I am sure we will end that 75-year famine. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marie Sherlock","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Marie Sherlock  In the spirit of solidarity, as a proud Corkonian who is very proud to now call Dublin home, I extend my support to Mayo as well. They might just do it this time round. I thank all those who came to support the Bill today, including Deputies Ivana Bacik, Mark Ward, Gary Gannon, Paul McAuliffe and Roderic O'Gorman. It is very clear that while we may all have a slight difference in emphasis about what we want to see, there is very much a clarion call that we do need to see some change, particularly in Dublin, and an acknowledgement by the Government that we have to empower the local authorities in Dublin to be able to bring about that change. Deputy McAuliffe made a really powerful point that we do not necessarily need to legislate for the whole country but we have to be able to empower and enable local authorities to find the right system for their areas because, as somebody who grew up in a very rural area, I know the challenges with regard to fly tipping there are completely different from the issues in my home in the north inner city.  The reality is that Dublin finds itself at a juncture. The reason so many people have come to express anger and frustration over the past few months is because a private bin company is effectively foisting a change upon them relating to what is a public service in terms of a bin collection service and the local authority has been rendered almost powerless because it exerts little or no control over those companies.  I pay tribute to a lot of the work that many officials and workers in Dublin City Council do because, in some ways, their hands are tied behind their back. They recognise the issue with regard to landlord responsibility. I am very disappointed to hear the Minister of State's comments about landlord responsibility. Nobody is talking about landlords hovering over their tenants to see whether they put out their bin on a Tuesday morning. This is about making sure there is a waste contract attached to the tenancy. It is then up to the tenants to try to make good that, but in many instances there is no contract and tenants are in the dark as to what they should do, so we need to try to ensure we do everything possible.  There is no silver bullet with regard to illegal dumping, litter on our streets and all the issues relating to waste. They will all add up but we have to show a willingness to take action. That is the regrettable thing today. We eagerly await this independent review and yet we see that so many of the arguments put forward effectively eviscerate what we are proposing today, so the Government is already pre-empting the outcome of the independent review by effectively rejecting the proposal we are bringing forward, and I regret that. My background has always been to support the evidence, but we see so many other European cities do things very differently and I think most of us would accept that when one walks the streets of so many other European cities, they are vastly cleaner than Dublin. We want to make our city better.  The other important thing to say is that we did not hear any new ideas today, and I say that with the greatest respect to the Minister of State. We did not hear any ideas with regard to the profound challenges we have regarding our plateauing recycling rates and all the other issues that are there.  That is disappointing. This is a forum to bring forward the Government's ideas. If it is not going to accept our ideas, it should bring forward its own ideas but we did not hear any of those. The leader of the Minister of State\u2019s party, the T\u00e1naiste, wrote very enthusiastically about the recommendations of the Dublin task force just before the general election in 2024, and a very clear recommendation was to move to a single operator. That seems to have fallen off the wagon in the months since then but it was a very clear recommendation.  The Competition and Consumer Protection Commission undertook a very detailed analysis in 2018. I would be very careful not to disparage the work that went into its report. I ask that the Government be very careful in its commentary with regard to the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission. I disagree with it on many other things but we have to respect what it wrote, in particular with regard to waste management.  We eagerly await this report. It was supposed to be published in the spring. We have not heard a date from the Minister of State today and we would like to hear that date. This fight is not going away. It is about our communities, cost and control. We will stand unified in having another go at this to try to change how Dublin, in particular, deals with its waste.  As the final speaker before the Ceann Comhairle, I wish to thank her for her excellent work over the past year. I think everybody across this Chamber would acknowledge she runs a very tight operation and it is hugely appreciated. We all have lots of issues we want to bring forward and it is genuinely appreciated. I thank her for her work and everything she does here. I also thank all of the staff. There are many staff we never see in Leinster House, particularly those of elected representatives, in the Bills Office and in all the other areas. I say thank you to our cleaners, the catering staff, those in broadcasting and to all of our staff. This place would not run without the benefit of people's work over very long hours, as I know when I have to leave my office sometimes after midnight or 1 a.m. when the ushers are kindly asking me to allow them to lock up. I thank everybody and wish them a good summer. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an Teachta. That is very much appreciated. However, there remains a question. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  As the Deputy knows, the division will be taken after the recess in September. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  The Minister of State has the summer to change his mind. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Agus t\u00e9arma reatha na D\u00e1la ag teacht chun cr\u00edche, agus sinn ag d\u00edri\u00fa ar th\u00fas an tsamhraidh, t\u00e1im bu\u00edoch do gach Teachta as a gcomhoibri\u00fa. Thar ceann na Comhalta\u00ed go l\u00e9ir, gabhaim bu\u00edochas le Elaine Gunn agus lena foireann as a dtaca\u00edocht agus an obair mh\u00f3r a rinne siad. Gabhaim bu\u00edochas freisin le m\u2019fhoireann i gContae Loch Garman as an taca\u00edocht luachmhar a thug siad dom. C\u00e9 nach mbeidh an D\u00e1il ina shu\u00ed, t\u00e1 a fhios agam go mbeidh na Teachta\u00ed D\u00e1la ag d\u00e9anamh ionada\u00edochta ar na daoine ina nD\u00e1ilcheantair i gc\u00f3na\u00ed. T\u00e1 s\u00fail agam go gcuirfidh siad am ar f\u00e1il freisin d\u00e1 muintir agus d\u00e1 gcairde. T\u00e1 m\u00e9 ag s\u00fail go m\u00f3r le hiad a fheice\u00e1il i m\u00ed Mhe\u00e1n F\u00f3mhair agus go mbeidh siad athnuaite agus ullamh do th\u00e9arma an fh\u00f3mhair.  As we come to the end of the D\u00e1il term and head into the summer recess, I extend to all Deputies my gratitude for their co-operation. On behalf of all the Members, I thank Elaine Gunn and her large team for their support and hard work. I thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle and my Acting Chairs who make it possible for me to carry out all of the other duties. I thank John Walsh and his staff in the dining room, Darren Brady and his staff, Alan Ruane and his team of ushers, and all those who assist us here in Leinster House. I thank my own staff in County Wexford for their valuable support and my private secretary, Jill Gray, and Barry Ryan, head of security.  Even though the D\u00e1il is not sitting, I know TDs will continue to represent their constituents and I hope they also make time to enjoy the company of their family and friends. It is very important to come back refreshed. I look forward to seeing you all in September revitalised and ready for the autumn term. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an D\u00e1il ar athl\u00f3 ar 7.25 p.m. go dt\u00ed 2 p.m., D\u00e9 C\u00e9adaoin, an 16 Me\u00e1n F\u00f3mhair 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The D\u00e1il adjourned at 7.25 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Wednesday, 16 September 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Waste Management (Single Household Waste Collection Service) Bill 2026: Second Stage [Private Members]"}]}}]},"contextDate":"2026-07-16"},{"debateRecord":{"house":{"showAs":"COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS","committeeCode":"committee_of_public_accounts","houseCode":"dail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/committee\/dail\/34\/committee_of_public_accounts","chamberType":"committee","houseNo":"34"},"chamber":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/def\/committee","showAs":"COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS"},"lastUpdated":"2026-07-18T02:09:37+00:00","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/committee_of_public_accounts\/2026-07-16\/debate\/main","formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/committee_of_public_accounts\/2026-07-16\/debate\/mul@\/main.xml"},"pdf":null},"date":"2026-07-16","counts":{"contributorCount":12,"divisionCount":0,"debateSectionCount":2,"questionCount":0,"billCount":0},"debateType":"debate","debateSections":[{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/committee_of_public_accounts\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_2","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Business of Committee","counts":{"speechCount":66,"speakerCount":10},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Colette Drinan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanna Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  No apologies have been received. I welcome Deputy Martin Daly, who has been appointed to fill the vacancy left by appointment of Deputy Catherine Ardagh as a Minister of State. I can tell Deputy Daly that we work well together as a committee. We have a lot to cover, such is the extent of our remit. We have covered many serious issues in light of concerns relating to value for money and waste. If I, as Cathaoirleach, can be of any assistance to Deputy Daly, he should know that my door is always open. I do not know whether anyone else wants to welcome the Deputy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  I also welcome my colleague. The Deputy's role as health spokesperson brings a particular level of expertise to the committee. Many of our discussions relate to health matters, whether it is hospitals, the HSE or whatever. The Deputy's expertise in that area will certainly be beneficial to the committee. I very much welcome him on board. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank Deputy McGrath. Before we proceed, I have a few housekeeping matters to go through. Members are reminded of the provisions in Standing Order 226 to the effect that the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I would also like to remind members of the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings, they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex or within the precincts of Leinster House.  The agenda for the first part of the meeting is as follows: the minutes, accounts and statements; correspondence; upcoming meetings; and the committee's report. The committee will then suspend before engaging with officials from the National Transport Authority and Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann at approximately 10.30 a.m.  The minutes of the meetings of the 9 July and 13 July were agreed by the committee.  These will be published on the committee's webpage.  Twelves sets of accounts and financial statements were laid between 6 and 10 July 2026, which are due to be considered today. We are joined by Ms Colette Drinan, secretary and director of audit, who is attending on behalf of the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General, who is a permanent witness to the committee. I ask Ms Drinan to address these before opening the floor to members. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Colette Drinan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Colette Drinan  The first set of accounts we are noting are: the Personal Injuries Resolution Board for the year 2025, which were certified on 2 June and received a clear audit opinion; the Industrial Development Agency Ireland for the year 2025, which was certified on 17 June and received a clear audit opinion; and Enterprise Ireland for the year 2025, which was certified on 17 June and received a clear audit opinion.  Next we have eight sets of accounts the National Treasury Management Agency, NTMA, prepared, of all which were certified on 29 April. These are: the National Treasury Management Agency's administration account, which received a clear audit opinion; the national debt of Ireland accounts, which received a clear audit opinion; the Post Office Savings Bank Fund, which received a clear audit opinion; the State Claims Agency, which received a clear audit opinion; the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund, ISIF, received a clear audit opinion. However, attention was drawn to a loss arising from a fraudulent request from a third party for payment of \u20ac5 million under a legitimate investment agreement. A net loss of \u20ac2.5 million was recognised in 2025 after accounting for what the agency could recover and the investigation costs that had been incurred. The committee discussed that with the NTMA on 14 May when it appeared before it; the Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund, which received a clear audit opinion; the Future Ireland Fund, which received a clear audit opinion; and the Dormant Accounts Fund, which received a clear audit opinion.  The final set out of accounts we are noting are the Child and Family Agency, Tusla, which received a clear audit opinion. They were certified on 15 June. However, attention is drawn to a material level of non-compliant procurement. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Do any members wish to comment? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  Regarding the Child and Family Agency, I ask Ms Drinan to tell us the nature of the non-compliant procurement or what element of the operation it refers to. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Colette Drinan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Colette Drinan  It was \u20ac3.8 million. It related to a large number of contracts. It was about 50 contracts. The largest items were in relation to services in respect of security and transport. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  In the context of the ISIF accounts that were noted and come under the NTMA, which we had before this committee. At last week's hearing, when RT\u00c9 was present, it made clear that the only body that is holding it to account in respect of the delivery of its strategy of having up to 400 people, reduction of headcount and meeting a ratio of operating costs versus staff is the New Economy and Recovery Authority, NewERA.  Similarly, we are going to hear from the NTA and Irish Rail today. The Department of Transport is carrying out a third process in respect of the IT project within Irish Rail. It is also consulting with NewERA. We should write to NewERA to see what it can provide to us in relation to how well RT\u00c9 is fulfilling its strategy and meeting its goals because we did not get a straight answer in respect of either of those things. Pending the outcome of this hearing, we might consider bringing in NewERA at the appropriate juncture to hear from it regarding some of these issues that have emerged. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  I wish to build on the piece regarding the Child and Family Agency. I propose that we write to it to ask for a detailed note on all that non-compliant procurement. What we know when it comes to Tusla is that, in some cases, security means staff. If there are staffing arrangements in place that are non-compliant, that is something we need to have information on. I ask for an explanatory note from Tusla over the recess as to the nature of that and to show that the practice has come to an end. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Do any other members wish to comment? No.  Regarding to ISIF and the net loss of \u20ac2.5 million, this was an issue we discussed extensively with the NTMA when it was in. It was limited as to what information it could give in relation to that fraud of \u20ac5 million. It said it was precluded because it was an ongoing process. There were specific questions asked as to whether there was potentially a State player involved, where it originated from, etc. It could not give any information. What we see now in the accounts is that a decision has been taken now that the \u20ac2.5 million is not going to be collected. That would lead me to believe the investigation has concluded. It is extremely disappointing to see a fraud of that level costing \u20ac2.5 million. It is welcome that \u20ac2.5 million was recovered but it is a considerable amount. I propose that we write to ISIF and find out exactly what the status of the investigation is and whether there is an ongoing Garda investigation and to see if more details in relation to that can be furnished and what lessons have been learned. It said it had learned a lot of lessons but we certainly need a lot more information regarding that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  I fully support the Cathaoirleach on that. A total of \u20ac2.5 million as a net loss is a sizeable amount of money. If things have progressed from when had that discussion on the matter previously, we should probe it further and try to get as much information as possible. I fully support the Cathaoirleach's proposal that we would write to it in the first instance. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Do any other members wish to comment? No.  Do members agree to note the listing of accounts and financial statements and follow up on those proposed course of actions? Agreed.  Moving on to correspondence, there are a number of B items of correspondence to consider today. These have been received by Departments and public bodies. We will start with one item that was deferred from last week's meeting. No. R2026\/0350, dated 30 June 2026, is correspondence received from the Office of the Commissioner of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na in response to the committee's request for further information regarding procurement of cell windows in Garda stations. Do members wish to comment on that? No. Is it agreed to note and publish the item? Agreed.  The next is No. R2026\/0353, dated 2 July 2026, is correspondence received from the chief executive officer of Inland Fisheries Ireland, IFI, in response to the committee's request for further information in relation to external media communications training. Do members wish to comment on that? No. I have a brief comment to make. There was a lot of concern when got the breakdown of the figures for media training by IFI before it attended the committee. It was \u20ac53,933, which was excessive and extensive. It gave a breakdown and had provided a breakdown in relation to that previously. In this new correspondence, it gives additional costs. The additional legal costs in preparation for that meeting with us were \u20ac16,768, excluding VAT. For one appearance before the public accounts committee, it cost over \u20ac70,000. That is not including the VAT for the legal costs. It is extraordinary. Given some of the difficulties stemming from our engagements with IFI, it is excessive. There needs to be lessons learned from that. No one is saying that legal advice cannot be taken but when we take it as a whole, over \u20ac70,000 for media training and all associated costs is excessive. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  I do not know why it is giving us the figure, excluding VAT. We are not its accountants. At the end of the day, this was 23%. It was \u20ac85,000 or close to \u20ac90,000 to attend the public accounts committee. Can we imagine if every single witness that came before the committee spent \u20ac90,000 to prepare to come before us? This committee would be a laughing stock in the sense that we would be increasing taxpayer spend just by scrutinising the taxpayer spend. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  It is extraordinary. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  It is farcical and frustrating. I do not know what else we can say in relation to this but it is just absolutely appalling. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  If you calculate the hours spent in preparation for a two- to three-hour meeting, it was probably ten times that in preparing for that, which, in and of itself, as a second meeting, really raises questions as to the sincerity in which IFI came before us the second time. How far are we willing to push this, though, in terms of a recommendation? Should we ask the Department of public expenditure to issue a circular to all bodies saying, \"You are not permitted to spend money on training or preparing for Oireachtas committee meetings\"? It is not an appropriate use of taxpayer money. It is as simple as that. When you appear before any Oireachtas committee, I am of the opinion that we could ask at least for the Department of public expenditure's opinion on this as a starting point to see if that is what we should do. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Yes, absolutely. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  I refer the committee back to the correspondence we had from the Department of public expenditure - I think it was two weeks ago - in which it said training is provided for members of the public service or the Civil Service appearing before Oireachtas committees. I do not think any of us take for granted that coming before an Oireachtas committee and appearing on live TV is an onerous task that is not part of people's everyday tasks. I therefore have absolutely no problem with people preparing maybe their own training, but what is here is anything but training. What is here is an organisation trying to get its story straight before it comes before this committee, and the same systemic problems it has displayed in so many other areas appear to have been displayed in this correspondence. I just want to separate it out. This is unusual. I do not think this is something that happens for all witnesses who come before us. It is an example of the significant issues that arise in this organisation and why this committee needs to continue to examine them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  It is an incredible waste of taxpayers' money that up to \u20ac90,000 was spent on social media or for IFI to come in here and appear before us and for everything that happened in advance of that. I want a question to go back: was there procurement? At over \u20ac25,000, there should be procurement. I want to see whether other contractors were sought in relation to this because I do not believe there could have been in haste. We want people to come in here and to give us genuine delivery when we interview them, without haste.  I also want to ask what the Government is doing about this. Has a Government circular been sent to every organisation that has government funding? Is there a policy in place for media training? I want to know whether the Government has a circular in relation to all Departments. We have seen this right across the board. I refer to the number of people who have come in here and have had media training. I want to know whether the Government has released a circular in relation to that. Maybe it could be a question that would go out to every Department from this committee asking if the Government has released a circular on media training. If we were to add it up right across every organisation that receives government funding, as to whether they have had media training, the majority have said yes. I want to see if the Government is acting on this, what action has been put in place and what is going to happen going into the future. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  A lot has been said and I just want to add my voice. It is a disturbing waste of public money, to be perfectly frank, and it brings to the fore a culture of total disregard for the appropriate use of public money, effectively. We need to condemn it in the strongest possible terms as a committee. We also need to send a message that this is going to be a question we will be asking State agencies in future when they come before us, that we will be putting a spotlight on this in terms of the use of public money for communications or other training in advance of appearances here, because we simply cannot tolerate this. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I agree with all those comments. It is an insult to the integrity of this committee. Previous correspondents have actually said they got media training because there was nearly an ask from this committee that they review their communications strategy following their first appearance. It was a criticism of their failure to engage the first time they were here. The question was asked, \"What media training did you get? Maybe you need to question how effective that was.\" That was not a blank cheque for them to go out and spend this amount of money on training. It speaks of systemic issues within the organisation and is completely unacceptable. As a committee, we need to look at this issue in the whole because I do not think it is just an issue particular to IFI. I propose that we write to each Department and agencies under their bodies because, yes, we have these bodies coming before us but they also appear before other Oireachtas committees. Is there outsourcing? Is additional media training given before they appear before all those committees? We need to see the total cost to the State for appearing not just before the public accounts committee but before all the Oireachtas joint committees. I propose that we write to each Department asking for details as to what external media training they and the agencies under their remit have received before appearing before any Oireachtas committee. We should look at it. Someone mentioned recommendations. It is an issue of grave concern, and that is not criticising some organisations that do need assistance, but there is assistance given. We have written to the Department of public expenditure in the past and it has come back and provided us information on existing training and assistance that can be provided. As to why that is not being availed of, we need to ask that question. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  People are looking for accountability on this issue. It is important to remember that IFI has a board, and the members of that board should really be looking at themselves if this issue did not come to the attention of the board as to the appropriateness of that spend. It is supposed to hold to account the executive of that organisation as to how it spends its money. As to how any board member sitting on a State board could think it appropriate to spend up to \u20ac90,000 to appear before a public accounts committee, they really have to look themselves in the mirror. This is a new CEO. We should write to the new CEO and ask, \"Do you think this was an appropriate level of spend to appear before a public accounts committee?\" We should hear from the new CEO. Let us hope that cultural change is taking place, that board members take note of this and that change is happening in IFI, because this just beggars belief. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  This correspondence is from Dr. Eamonn Kelly. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  That is right. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  To conclude----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Just briefly, Deputy Bennett. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  Can we just ensure that we seek clarity on procurement and on whether circulars have gone from the Government to boards to ensure that they are not spending this amount of money on media training? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Okay. I think the question about procurement was answered in IFI's initial correspondence. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  So did IFI get procurement for this? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  IFI said it was an existing framework, but we can get clarity on that point. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  I have a suggestion. No doubt other entities coming before us spend money on pre-session training, and we do not always ask that question because we are often discussing a lot of issues when they come before us. Would it be an idea that, as a matter of course, we ask that question in our pre-session correspondence, \"Please provide information on any pre-session training, communications, legal, etc.\", to everyone who comes before us prior to their coming before us to provide clarification on that issue? It is something we should consider. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  That may be an issue when we issue the invite, that we can ask for in communication, whether it is a briefing note or whatever, which all bodies send in advance, and that they can touch on that and the cost. Is that agreed? Okay.  Is it agreed to note and publish the item along with the proposed actions? Agreed.  No. R-2026-0355 is correspondence received from the Secretary General of the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation in response to the committee's request for further information following the meeting on 11 June 2026, dated 3 July 2026. Do members wish to comment? No. Is it agreed to note and publish the item? Agreed.  No. R-2026-0356 is correspondence received from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine providing a note of delay of the C and AG's audit of the Aquaculture Licences Appeals Board's 2025 financial statements, dated 3 July 2026.  Do members wish to comment? Is it agreed to note and publish the item? Agreed.  No. R2026\/0361 is correspondence received from the Secretary General of the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation in response to the committee's request for further information regarding capital projects, dated 8 July 2026. Do members wish to comment? Is it agreed to note and publish the item? Agreed.  No. R2026\/0362 is correspondence received from the chairperson of the Office of Public Works in response to the committee's request for further information regarding the arbitration determination in respect of the proposed national children's science centre, dated 10 July 2026. The committee discussed this item at a private meeting on Monday, 13 July 2026, and it was agreed to note and publish it. Do members wish to make any further comments on this item? We will discussing our report later on. It was previously agreed to publish that.  No. R2026\/0365 is correspondence received from the chief executive of Irish Rail providing a response to information requested regarding the train management system, including the reported scale of expenditure on writedowns and the issues raised in respect of governance, oversight and delivery of the project, dated 10 July 2026. The CEO of Irish Rail will be in attendance shortly to discuss the matter further. Is it agreed to note and publish that item? Agreed.  No. R2026\/0367 is correspondence received from the chief executive officer of the National Transport Authority in response to additional information requested by the committee, including a full breakdown of the reported \u20ac50 million writedown associated with the train management system, dated 10 July 2026. Again, the CEO of the NTA will join us shortly to discuss this item. Do members wish to comment on that? The NTA gives additional information regarding the electric buses that are in storage. We will have an opportunity to discuss it with the NTA but it is quite concerning that the new information gives a total value of the 98 buses that are still in storage. This is an \u20ac58.3 million investment in essential buses for our fleet that are in storage. The NTA also gives additional costs. It says it is expected that it will not cost an additional \u20ac1.5 million to store those buses until they become operational. We will be discussing many of the systemic failures within the organisation shortly. It is extraordinary. The NTA has such a valuable asset - not just these 98 buses but the other ones that were in storage as well. It is expected to cost over \u20ac8 million over a number of years to store those buses because of a failure to forward plan. It speaks volumes about why the NTA is ending up before us again because of all of those failures. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  The NTA's witness statement for today states that it is the approving authority while Irish Rail is the sponsoring authority, but I am totally confused when it comes to the buses because the NTA is acquiring the buses. Is the NTA is the approving authority or the sponsoring authority or is it both? The lines are so blurred when it comes to the many hats the NTA wears that it does give us cause for concern regarding governance. Does the NTA have the capacity and expertise required? Does it have a clear understanding of whether it is the approving authority or the sponsoring authority in every different segment of the many hats it wears? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  This will be an opportunity because the lines are being blurred. It is a key question. Ultimately, it appears that when something does go wrong, the NTA is very quick to throw someone else under the bus, to use that expression. Is it agreed to note and publish that item? Agreed.  R2026\/0370 is correspondence received from the Secretary General of the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment in response to the committee\u2019s request for further information following the meeting on 21 May 2026, dated 10 July 2026. Do members wish to comment? Is it agreed to note and publish the item? Agreed.  R2026\/0371 is correspondence received from the Secretary General of the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation in response to the committee\u2019s request for the attendance of a representative from the Office of the Government Chief Information Officer, OGCIO, on 16 July 2026, dated 8 July 2026. Do members wish to comment? I will make a brief comment on this because there was a request from us for a representative from the OGCIO to attend this meeting. We know the role it is supposed to play in terms of oversight of IT expenditure and programmes. It speaks volumes that it has essentially said that it does not see a role for itself in attending this critically important meeting, which will discuss a massive failure of an IT project that has led to a write down of \u20ac50 million. For the Department to come back and essentially say that it does not see a role for anyone from the OGCIO to attend here today to answer questions speaks volumes about why we are in the mess we are in. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  This goes back to a point I raised at our meeting in January with the NTA. This project was not classed as an IT project. It was classed as a building project notwithstanding the fact that the purpose of the building was train control. The software was actually the key part of delivering this project but, for some reason, under the various circulars, it was classed as a building project rather than an IT project. That is a point we raised with the NTA in January along with the Department. Something is seriously wrong with that. It leads us to wonder whether there are any other IT projects that are classed as something else when, in essence, the purpose of them is an IT deployment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Deputy Boland raised a very important point. If we contrast the ICT project in the Arts Council with the ICT project in Irish Rail, as I recall, there was engagement between the OGCIO and the Arts Council as problems emerged. Admittedly, the Department and the OGCIO were very quick to make it clear that, ultimately, the responsibility lay with the Arts Council in respect of that project but there was engagement and there was some kind of formal role. As Deputy Boland said, it is that lack of clarity when it comes to State bodies as to what role, if any, is played by the OGCIO and at what the stage it has any function whatsoever. As Deputy Boland said, it appears with this project, it did not have any role or function and it is not clear why that is the case. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  I can understand why the OGCIO is looking at the way we are examining these projects and is thinking, \"We don't want to be before the public accounts committee every week,\" but what is clear is that we were inviting it as a representative body. The fact that it would be here and give evidence that there was no engagement or that it had not been consulted is important because many of the issues regarding these schemes result from very poor planning at the outset. I can understand the case the OGCIO is making regarding each body having its own fiduciary responsibility and so on. That was not the remit under which we sought to bring it before the Committee of Public Accounts. We sought to bring it here to provide assistance to the committee. We need to clarify the OGCIO's remit and role with it and make clear why we are inviting it here. It is disappointing that it does not have somebody present. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  This relates to our work as a committee regarding analysis of ICT projects overall.  We need to include quite a specific piece of work from the Office of the Government Chief Information Officer, OGCIO. It is a common thread in many of the cases, be those ones where, as Deputy Geoghegan said, support was sought but was not forthcoming or where, by way of miscategorisation, it was not involved in the project. We are not learning the lessons if we do not stop and look. Our work examining ICT infrastructure overall is a real opportunity to highlight that. State bodies, including Departments, do not have the intrinsic competency to get briefs right when it comes to ICT projects. That is proven across the board now. My understanding is that is where the OGCIO should step in an provide competency. If is not being utilised or offered, we have big problems here. I ask that we consider that as part of our ongoing work with ICT infrastructure. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  There is the underlying issue that no one is taking responsibility. The Department of public expenditure and the OGCIO are doing nothing to alleviate this. No action is being taken. As far as I remember, the Arts Council sought support at the time \u2013 they did not get that help. It is an underlying issue running across all Departments. The Government has to take responsibility here. This is money that taxpayers have paid into the system that Departments are giving out and for which there is no accountability. Every day we come into this committee, we see it. Ministers need to take responsibility for the Departments they are over. We cannot go around blaming the OCGIO, the Arts Council or any other entity. The Government and Departments need to take responsibility for where Government funding is going. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  It also says in the correspondence that because Irish Rail is a commercial semi-State body, it does not see a role for itself. That adds another concern. It is an issue we will return to. I will let the Comptroller and Auditor General\u2019s office come in. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Colette Drinan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Colette Drinan  It is just to draw attention to the circular that governs the arrangements for oversight of digital and ICT-related initiatives that was issued in 2021. It sets out whom it applies to. It applies to all Votes and centrally funded public services bodies, and then to non-commercial State bodies with a turnover of more than \u20ac5 million. Maybe there is a piece there around the applicability of that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  What is that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Colette Drinan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Colette Drinan  It is Circular 14\/2021. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  I asked the NTA about that circular in January and was told it did not apply because the project was a \u20ac150 million project and it was a building, notwithstanding the fact that the ultimate aim of the project was to deliver the software for the traffic management system. The NTA said it did not fall under that because it was classifying it as a capital build. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Colette Drinan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Colette Drinan  If it was classified as ICT, the fact that it is a commercial State body could create a difficulty as well. I take the point. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Is it agreed to note the item and follow up on the issues identified? Agreed.  Next is No. R2026\/0373, correspondence received from the chief executive officer of Bus \u00c9ireann, in response to the committee\u2019s request for information relating to correspondence received from the National Transport Authority regarding Bus \u00c9ireann capital projects, dated 15 July 2026. Do members wish to comment? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  First, I thank Bus \u00c9ireann for the reply. It is quite detailed. I raised some issues around the bus depot. Initially in 2023, it was estimated to cost \u20ac10.7 million, but it ultimately cost close to \u20ac17 million, which is a significant jump. There are some explanations in the correspondence, including the scope of the project increasing and so on. It still raises concerns about the budgeting and estimation process in 2023 setting it at just over \u20ac10 million when it ultimately cost close to \u20ac17 million, but the response does provide us with some additional information, which is welcome. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Is it agreed to note and publish the correspondence? Agreed. That concludes the B items for discussion today. We now move to the work programme. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanna Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joanna Byrne  Did the Chairman miss No. R2026\/0372? It is Irish Sport for Palestine. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  We dealt with that in private session. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanna Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joanna Byrne  Once we are actioning it, that is fine. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  It was agreed that we will follow up and get further information. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanna Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joanna Byrne  Grand, no problem. Thank you. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  That was No. R2026\/0372, correspondence from Irish Sport for Palestine requesting that the committee investigate the legal risks associated with the FAI\u2019s use of public money to fulfil the upcoming match against Israel. That is dated 14 July 2026. We discussed it. I know the Deputy was absent. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanna Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joanna Byrne  No, I was here. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  The Deputy wants to discuss it now, sorry. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanna Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joanna Byrne  I was not sure if it was in the B or C section. There has been significant public debate on whether Ireland should fulfil these fixtures against Israel. We all know that Israel continues to commit genocide and practice apartheid and is in breach of both FIFA\u2019s and UEFA\u2019s statutes. This correspondence from Irish Sport for Palestine rightfully prompts a different conversation in regard to public money in fulfilling these fixtures. The FAI produced a document to issue to its general assembly members in advance of its EGM last week that gave a predicted financial cost to the Irish taxpayer of not fulfilling these fixtures. It was a substantiated figure of between \u20ac5.5 million and \u20ac10.3 million. It also included the gate receipts of the match going ahead in Dublin even though it had already decided to move it to a neutral venue, so its own figures posed questions in that regard. That, however, was for the delegates and members to decide on. Interestingly, it did not provide a cost assessment of what it would cost the Irish taxpayer to proceed with fulfilling these fixtures. There are legal implications for Ireland in this regard and the use of public money to fund these matches against Israel comes into question. As I outlined in private session, if these matches proceed, there will be a case for the FAI to come before the Committee of Public Accounts to answer in regard to the money aspect. For now, I am happy for us to initiate the process by writing to the FAI and asking for clarity around the legal and financial implications of the public moneys funding these matches. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  We agreed that the letter would be written but in order that we do not raise expectation, the FAI is not accountable to the public accounts committee. Raising expectations would be unfair to people out there who are very motivated in respect of this issue. It is an issue that a lot of people in Ireland are upset, concerned and frustrated about and I do not want to give false expectations to them because at the end of the day, the only bodies that can come before this committee are those that are accountable to the Committee of Public Accounts. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I hear what the Deputy is saying. We have agreed to write and start a process. We will see the outcome.  Moving on to the work programme, the following meetings have been agreed. Today, 16 July, we will meet the NTA and Irish Rail. The committee will return after the summer recess and meet on 17 September to consider business of the committee.  Moving on to reports, the committee is publishing its interim report on the national children\u2019s science centre today. The report examines matters relating to the development of the proposed national children\u2019s science centre. This interim report is being launched following a comprehensive piece of work into this debacle. It is a saga that has dragged on for more than two decades. The report lays bare a deeply concerning picture. More than \u20ac4.2 million has already been spent on planning and legal costs, with further legal costs still to be finalised. The estimated construction costs had risen to more than \u20ac70 million when last costed two years ago in 2024. This excludes the fit-out costs estimated at around \u20ac19 million in 2022 and a further \u20ac30 million in State support over ten years for operational and exhibit renewal.  Despite these escalating costs, the project still has no sponsoring Government Department and no funding allocated under the national development plan, and yet the Office of Public Works remains legally obliged to continue progressing the project, with work already under way to prepare for a tender process to be completed by the end of 2026. We know that over \u20ac22,000 has recently been paid to technical consultants as part of this process. Every day that this situation continues, more money continues to be spent, despite there being no credible pathway to delivering the project.  The committee's central conclusion is clear that an urgent political intervention is now required. The Government cannot continue, in my view, to bury its head in the sand while public funds are exposed to mounting costs and increasing legal risk. The issues at the heart of this project will not be resolved by the parties currently involved acting alone. Without decisive Government leadership and a clear political decision, the State faces continued uncertainty, further delays and even greater costs to the taxpayer.  We have examined the evidence, published our findings and made very clear recommendations, with six recommendations in total. A couple of the key recommendations include that the committee considers that the matters identified during its examination are unlikely to be resolved through engagement between the parties alone and will require consideration at an appropriate level across government. The committee recommends that the OPW and the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation and other relevant Departments engage directly and as a matter of priority with representatives of the national children's science centre, with a view to identifying a way forward for the project or a way to end any commitment to the project while minimising any cost to the State.  Another key recommendation is that the committee recommends that prior to any significant further commitment of public resources, the OPW undertakes a comprehensive assessment of the project's costs, benefits, governance arrangements, operational model, long-term funding requirements and value for money, including an assessment of the financial, legal and contractual implications of terminating or withdrawing from the project, and that issues relating to sponsorship, governance and funding be clearly identified and assessed.  It is clear that no further public money should be committed until a comprehensive assessment is completed. In my view the responsibility now rests with the Government and, in particular, with the Minister for public expenditure, Deputy Chambers, along with the Minister of State with responsibility for the OPW, Deputy Moran. Ultimately, we cannot continue to ignore this massive and growing liability to the State. Action must be taken now to protect money, bring all the parties together and finally bring this long-running saga to an end, one way or another. I will now open it up to members and invite the Leas-Chathaoirleach, Deputy McAuliffe, to come in first. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  I thank the clerk and the staff of the committee for putting together this interim report. It is worth noting that it is unusual for the committee to issue an interim report but it was said clearly at one of our hearings that this issue demanded that somebody cry stop. In issuing this interim report this is what the committee is doing.  A number of the observations are worth highlighting. A project that initially started out as a community gain project as part of an overall development has escalated, according to observation No. 6, to a project of nearly \u20ac70 million. This has resulted in a creeping obligation which has been governed by the OPW. This was done in the absence of any sponsoring Department or authority. It was done on behalf of the OPW itself. The recommendations lay squarely on the OPW the responsibility of resolving this, although we know it will require Government action for it to happen. Two of the observations refer to the substantial costs of \u20ac1.15 million in regard to arbitration and legal fees and a total cost of nearly \u20ac4 million in regard to money spent on a project that essentially does not exist.  I have to say I think the recommendations are very strong and the one that is most compelling is recommendation No. 3, which recommends that the OPW engages directly as a matter of priority with representatives from the national children's science museum to find a way either to end the project or minimise the costs to the State. There is also our call to the national children's science museum, notwithstanding whatever legal rights it has, to give consideration to the wider public interest in the pursuit of its mission. I thank the clerk and all of the staff for putting the report together and I know we will continue our work on this issue. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  I thank everybody for compiling the report and for their hard work on it. There are good recommendations in it. I especially feel recommendation No. 1 is particularly important as it simply states that the committee feels the matter at hand requires consideration at the appropriate level across government. I feel the appropriate level across government would be that the Cabinet and Ministers take responsibility for it. A project that was originally estimated at \u20ac14.3 million has ballooned to \u20ac70 million. This has attracted attention but there are so many other projects like this for which the Government and Ministers need to take responsibility. As I have said at previous meetings, sometimes I feel the Government and the Ministers leave the responsibility at the door of State bodies, which is not good enough because we see this right across large agencies and bodies in health and justice. Millions and even billions are spent.  The Committee on Public Accounts is crying out for value for the taxpayers' money. The Ministers and the Government cannot wash their hands of this. Somebody needs to take responsibility. We have seen it before with the Arts Council's IT project. It which cried out for help and did not get it, and we were left with a huge loss to the State. The situation needs to be taken in hand and the recommendations need to be considered. They also need to be acted on as there is no point in producing reports if no action comes out of them. Recommendation No. 4 states it is in the public interest, notwithstanding legal action, that some action has to be taken on this.  Recommendation No. 6 states that within three months from the publication of the report we would see some progress from the OPW and the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation. I ask that the Cabinet gets involved in the project. We want to see action. There is no point coming in here and producing reports unless the recommendations are acted on. I would like to see in three months' time that there is action and that it is decided where the project goes, whether it is shut down, and the Government makes a decision on this, or that something happens, but something needs to be done. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  I acknowledge all of the work that all members of the committee, the clerks and all of the staff have put into producing this interim report with recommendations. One of the most important recommendations is that we want a timely response within the next three months. Long-time observers of this issue may think this is, to some extent, some sort of unique and bizarre story of history that has been running out through a series of Committees of Public Accounts, potentially three or four of them. When they hear the public utterances of the chair of the OPW before this committee, they might be incredibly confused to learn that as of 6 July, according to the correspondence it has provided to us the OPW has contracted and is consulting to get the tender documents prepared to proceed to deliver the project under the terms it is bound to do as per a legal agreement.  That has been our greatest source of frustration. I do not want to speak for the committee but I think it is a shared view when we hear from the chairman of the OPW that this is not a problem of his making but one that has landed on his desk. When he comes before this committee, he talks in terms of there being no funding, no sponsoring Department, that the OPW will correspond with this person and contact that person. I feel that, in public statements at this committee, we have been fobbed off quite regularly on this issue because in the public utterances it sounds like this project is going nowhere, that the chairman does not know what to do, nobody is helping him out and there is no funding, but privately there is a process that is proceeding and under way. There are no delays to it. There is the quarterly report. We threatened the OPW with compellability powers and it provided us with the document. It has made clear it has got Arup consulting, that tender documents are going to be ready and a building information management system is being put together, yet in public utterances we are being told this project is not proceeding, that the chairman does not know what to do and it is either build or breach.  If ever we were at the end of the road for making a decision it is now. We are at the end of the road, so somebody has to tell the public, and the chairman of the OPW as the Accounting Officer for this line budget, what is happening with the taxpayers' money that is owed pursuant to this agreement and the taxpayers' money that could be owed if the OPW does not fulfil this agreement. Then we can enter a space of trying to unwind this charity which, let us be frank, has laudable goals, is not a profit-making entity and wants to do good for children and science. We need to appeal to that better sense of the charity's mission as we get to the final stage of this process so we do not remain in the situation we have been in for the last 20 years where the north wing of Earlsfort Terrace is empty and the taxpayer is being sucked dry because of a legal error that is inexplicable, disgraceful and for which no one was held to account. We have to get to a moment where the OPW tells us what it is going to do and then we can try to appeal to the charity's sense of mission and see if there is somewhere between what the charity is looking for and the taxpayer's legal obligation to spend money. It is about how we can get to that sweet spot. It is something this committee has been so exercised on for a very long time, including in previous D\u00e1ileanna. The report we publish today with the recommendations is reflective of the work that has been done on this committee. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  I echo the thanks to the secretariat staff for their really important work in compiling this report but also to the many witnesses who attended and provided important information, documents and correspondence at various stages that helped us to come to an even more detailed understanding of this.  Without repeating and trying to add to the conversation this morning, all I will say is successive public accounts committees have spent way too much time on this issue. I hope this report brings us very much closer to a final solution with regard to this project. I highlight one piece from the senior counsel who said this project did not need to adhere to the public spending code simply because a cost-benefit analysis, a business case, was never part of the initial agreement. That is unfathomable. It makes no sense that would not have formed part of the discussions or negotiations and now we are left where we are. We need to hear from the OPW, the Ministers and the Executive of this State about the future of this project. It is one of those old situations where every stakeholder needs to get in a room and not leave until there is a solution everybody is okay with. That is what we have been calling for for many months at this committee - to bring everybody to one place. This report will do a lot of that work for us now. Again, my sincere thanks to everybody involved in collating it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  I thank all the members and the officials for their work on the report. The report is a summary of a catalogue of failures going back to 2003. It is a shocking example of ongoing mismanagement of a key project, a gross lack of project oversight and, of course, critically, a lack of accountability. That goes back to the very first day when the clause the Chief State Solicitor's Office recommended be inserted - a get-out-of-jail clause, effectively, if the Heuston Gate project did not go ahead - was not inserted into the agreement. Where is the accountability for that decision at that time? It is a complete lack of accountability. There are many chapters to this story but, unfortunately, in 2026, despite our best efforts as a committee, we still do not know what the final chapter will be of this project. We have a situation where the OPW is on the hook to provide a shell and a core of a building and it has no budget to do so even though it is proceeding in that direction. It is quite absurd and incomprehensible but that is where we find ourselves. Recommendation No. 1 is the critical one in terms of an all-of-government approach. This is an acute example of a silo culture within the public service - that it is not my problem but somebody else's - and that is where the core failures occurred here. We need an all-of-government approach at the most senior levels to bring this to a head and to ensure the right course of action is taken at this very late stage. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Martin Daly  I welcome the report. It is incomprehensible that, in 2003, no conditional clause was included. I am not going to labour that because it has already been talked about. Looking at recommendation No. 4, in what interest is the centre going to proceed against the public interest and what does it hope to gain from it? Engagement is required at the highest level to try to resolve this issue in the public interest and in the taxpayers' interest. Even going forward, we noted in the report that \"projected operating costs and any future requirement for Exchequer support have yet to be established\". Thus, not only is the \u20ac70 million part of it, it would be future operating costs and the business case has never been made for it. I welcome the report and the work that has been done by the committee prior to my joining this morning, but recommendation No. 4 is where we are at. If you go purely on a legal basis, we are on the hook as a State, but these cannot be faceless people serving on this. It is not in the public interest to proceed, and who is going to run this museum, even if they are provided with the shell and core? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  The report is being laid before the Houses and is now available on the committee's website. A copy of the report is also being issued to the Minister for public expenditure and the chairperson of the OPW. While recommendation No. 6 asks that we get a progress update within three months of this interim report being laid, and the issuing of an interim report is an unprecedented move, I would hope we get a progress update in September for our next meeting after the summer recess given the serious concerns this committee has and our predecessors had. I thank the secretariat staff for all their work in compiling the report. I also thank the Comptroller and Auditor General's office, which also did extensive work to bring attention to and outline a lot of concerns on the issue.  Are there any other items members wish to raise under any other business? There are not. That concludes session 2. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Sitting suspended at 10.49 a.m. and resumed at 10.54 a.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Business of Committee"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/committee_of_public_accounts\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_3","debateType":"statement","bill":null,"showAs":"Financial Statements 2024: National Transport Authority (Resumed)","counts":{"speechCount":1063,"speakerCount":13},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanna Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Ms Anne Shaw ( Chief Executive Officer, National Transport Authority ) called and examined."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  This morning, we engage with the National Transport Authority, NTA, and Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann to resume discussion on the National Transport Authority's 2024 financial statements. On behalf of the committee I would like welcome officials from the NTA: Ms Anne Shaw, chief executive officer, and Mr. Hugh Creegan, deputy chief executive officer and director of transport, planning and investment. From Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann, we are joined by Ms Mary Considine, chief executive officer, and Mr. Paul Hendrick, director of capital investments. We are also joined by Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell, principal officer at the heavy rail investments division of the Department of Transport, who is attending in a representative capacity. Finally, we are joined by officials from the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General, including Ms Colette Drinan, secretary and director of audit, on behalf of the C and AG, who is a permanent witness to the committee, and Ms. Georgina O'Mahony, deputy director of audit. The witnesses are all very welcome.  Before we begin, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references you may make to other persons in your evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. This means that you have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything you say at the meeting. However, you are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if your statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, you will be directed to discontinue your remarks. It is imperative that you comply with any such direction. Witnesses are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity, by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity.  I now invite Ms Drinan to deliver her opening statement on behalf of the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Colette Drinan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Colette Drinan  The National Transport Authority\u2019s financial statements for 2024 were previously examined at a meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts on 15 January 2026. At that meeting, the Comptroller and Auditor General outlined the main features of the authority\u2019s financial situation. He also summarised the evolution of the national train control centre project up to mid-2025, drawing attention to the ongoing delays in relation to development of the train management system and the anticipated cost overrun associated with the project, projected then to be in the order of 28%.  Further review of the train control project was undertaken in the context of the audit of the authority\u2019s financial statements for 2025. The Comptroller and Auditor General certified the 2025 financial statements on 17 June 2026. Once the financial statements are received by the Department of Transport, the Minister has statutory responsibility for their presentation to the Oireachtas. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I now call invite the chief executive officer to deliver the opening statement on behalf of the NTA. Ms Shaw, as set out in the letter of invitation, you have five minutes to make your opening statement. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  I thank the committee for the invitation to appear before it today to continue its consideration of the National Transport Authority's 2024 financial statements. This is with particular focus on the national train control centre project and the associated traffic management system contract. I am joined by Mr. Hugh Creegan, deputy chief executive and director of transport planning at the NTA, and I also welcome representatives of Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann, the delivery agency for the national train control centre. Together, we will seek to address the committee's questions fully and transparently, where possible, recognising that some issues remain commercially and legally sensitive. We have provided a detailed briefing document and other information as part of our submission last Friday.  It is worth clarifying the NTA's responsibilities in relation to major transport investment projects. The NTA is the statutory body responsible for the planning, provision and funding of public transport and active travel infrastructure. We also act as the approving authority for major public transport investment programmes, including BusConnects, DART+, MetroLink and the national train control centre programme.  The Government's infrastructure guidelines clearly distinguish between the roles of the sponsoring agency and the approving authority. Under these arrangements, the sponsoring agency is responsible for the planning, procurement, contract management and delivery of a project, including the achievement of its approved scope, budget, programme and intended benefits. The approving authority is responsible for funding the project, approving key decisions at defined stages of delivery and overseeing implementation through appropriate reporting and assurance arrangements.  In its role as approving authority, the NTA provides oversight of delivery of the capital programme by the various sponsoring agencies, and reports progress to the Department of Transport through the major projects governance oversight group. We work closely with project delivery bodies to address risks, assess proposed changes and consider any implications for budgets, delivery schedules and the wider investment portfolio.  Many major transport investments continue to progress successfully, including BusConnects which continues to advance, with all 12 core bus corridors having received planning permission and construction under way on two schemes, plus the procurement of a third corridor to commence shortly. The DART+ programme also continues to advance with confirmed railway orders and construction procurement under way. MetroLink has also received planning consent and is now moving into its procurement and construction stage. Active travel investment is also delivering a large number of benefits.  The NTA is also investing in new bus depots to support service expansion, with the Jamestown depot now operational, planning consent secured for a new bus depot in Blanchardstown, a new Go-Ahead Ireland depot opening shortly in Northwest Business Park in Dublin, and the Tivoli depot in Cork due to open in quarter 3 of 2026. In the case of the National Train Control Centre programme, the NTA is the approving authority and Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann is the sponsoring agency. Accordingly, while the NTA is responsible for funding, oversight and approval at key decision points, responsibility for the delivery and procurement of the contract is with Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann. The committee is rightly concerned about the write-down reported by Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann and the delays affecting the traffic management system project. Let me be clear that the NTA takes these issues extremely seriously. Protecting public funds and ensuring value for money are central to our assessment of all requests and recommendations from sponsoring agencies.  Over the lifetime of the project, Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann, with the support of the NTA, has sought to address delivery challenges through revised programmes and alternative implementation strategies. While an alternative delivery model remained an option, no formal recommendation seeking such a change was made by the Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann board to the NTA until recently. Instead, Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann and the NTA engaged extensively with Indra to help to develop and implement revised delivery strategies to progress the project. These approaches were informed by commitments and actions by Indra to address issues on the project, recognising the risks inherent in all approaches. At the centre of these efforts was the objective of ensuring the successful delivery of a traffic management system capable of supporting both current operations and future network expansion.  Following its internal governance processes, Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann formally informed the NTA on 29 June of the decision by its board regarding the existing role of Indra and the proposed way forward. The NTA requested additional information on 30 June to support consideration of that decision by the NTA, including its board and capital programme committee. The NTA received this extensive supporting information, including project risks, privileged legal advice, potential liabilities, future delivery options and implications for the wider programme. As approving authority, the NTA considered the implications of Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann's decision for the overall project, as well as the wider capital programme. The evidence indicates that the supplier is unlikely to deliver the required system in full specification within any reasonable timeframe and an alternative delivery approach is needed. Given these ongoing costs, the matter was considered as a priority through the NTA's governance processes, and the NTA board has now accepted Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann's decision regarding the role of Indra going forward. This was communicated to Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann on 13 July.  Both organisations, together with the Department of Transport, will continue to assess the implications of this decision, including additional funding requirements for delivering the traffic management system within the overall rail investment budget envelope to achieve the best possible outcome. Separately, the NTA has commissioned an independent review of the project, which is due to report in September. The review will examine governance, delivery and project oversight arrangements within both Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann and the NTA, and identify lessons to strengthen the delivery of future major infrastructure projects and, in particular, technology projects. Committee members may also be aware of the next generation ticketing project, which is being delivered directly by the NTA with Indra as the supplier. I can confirm that this integrated ticketing project remains on budget and on schedule. The contracting mechanism is different from that of the NTCC contract, with payment due only to successful delivery of each of the 34 key milestones.  We understand the committee is also interested in progress in delivering bus fleet electrification and, in particular, the cost of buses in storage pending absorption into the fleet. This information is detailed in a note provided to the committee. While there have been delays in delivering charging infrastructure, accounting for these buses needing to be in storage, the costs incurred are offset by the avoidance of inflationary increases that would have arisen on later purchase of those buses. In the meantime, the buses are stored and maintained by the manufacturer to ensure they remain in optimal condition and are expected to be fully absorbed into both Dublin Bus and Bus \u00c9ireann fleets by quarter 1 of 2027. I welcome the opportunity to assist the committee today and to outline the actions being taken to protect public funds and secure the best outcome for the public. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank Ms Shaw. I will now ask Ms Considine to deliver the opening statement on behalf of Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  I thank the Cathaoirleach and committee members for the invitation to discuss matters relating to the National Train Control Centre, NTCC, project with the committee. Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann is at a time of record demand and record investment. The portfolio of projects that we are overseeing is progressing well in the main. However, the serious problems encountered with the traffic management system, TMS, contract with Indra are of deep concern to us as a management team and to our board. The project has reached a point where Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann has no certainty as to when the contractor will fulfil its contractual obligations, and no confidence in its ability to do so, despite the extensive and continuing efforts of Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann and the National Transport Authority as the approving agency.  I have detailed what the NTCC is and the progress with the other elements of that, which are all on time and on schedule. However, the delivery of the TMS, originally due to be completed in June 2024, is yet to be completed by Indra. The joint Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann-NTA appendix, which I have attached to this statement, details the extensive procurement process supported and advised by external subject matter specialists. Additionally, the NTA would have commissioned specialists to undertake an independent technical review of the TMS scope of services prior to providing approval to release the tender documents to the market. Ultimately, from seven pre-qualified suppliers, two bids were received in early 2019. Each bidder was required to submit a compliance matrix to demonstrate that their proposed product solution would meet a minimum of 70% of the system requirements without the need for further software development.  Indra's compliance document was assessed by our specialist consultants, which determined it would meet 96% of the contract requirements. This, together with its systems integration plan and references by it to a 15-year history of 21 successful deployments in multiple national railways, led us to believe that Indra had a mature developed product ready for deployment into Ireland with minimal additional software development required. Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann also engaged Turas to provide project management support services, and Ricardo Rail to provide system integration and safety assurance services to support the delivery of the contract.  Post contract award, and early in the preliminary design phase, Indra advised that its deployed TMS product would no longer be supportable over the life of the maintenance contract, and it would be upgraded to a newer version in 2021. It reassured Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann that the software would be developed in a manner that would support future safety certifications and that its \"generic product\", as it called it, would be delivered in 2021 prior to the commencement of the Irish TMS software development process. It should be noted that, as of today, to the best of our knowledge software supported by this generic product has yet to be deployed in any railway.  The timeline provided outlines how the issues impacting the TMS programme unfolded. Management ensured that our board and the NTA, as approving authority, and the Department of Transport through the major projects governance oversight group, MPGOG, were advised, and in the case of commercial resettlements that both our board and NTA approval were received. While the timeline is comprehensive, I would highlight two specific milestones. First, when the re-baselined programme requested by us in the end of 2023 and accepted in early 2024 was sliding significantly off-track by mid-2024, Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann advised the NTA of an increasing lack of confidence in Indra's ability to deliver the project. Indra agreed to the request of NTA and Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann to take steps to restore confidence, and an alternative delivery strategy was developed comprising the delivery of a minimum viable product initially, with full functionality to be delivered over eight phases. Second, by mid-2025, testing identified a number of systemic issues, and Indra's own independent safety assessor also confirmed that the software was not ready to be deployed into service.  We discussed a continuing lack of confidence in Indra with the NTA in mid-2025. The NTA, from that point, took a significantly more active role in project oversight and contract management, holding fortnightly meetings with Indra and Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann.  Notwithstanding that, Indra\u2019s project delivery model was restricted to the commissioning of the Rosslare line, which the committee will see referred to as CP1. It is a relatively simple section of the network with minimal functionality representing approximately 3% of the project scope. A further 16-month delay in the CP1 commissioning milestone had been indicated by the end of 2025 and ultimately, in April 2026, Indra formally released its redeveloped CP1 software product to us for testing. It was immediately apparent, through our railway signalling principles testing, that many of the systemic issues that existed in 2025 remained and, in this context, our board took the decision to impair the carrying value of the asset in the financial statements for the year ending 31 December 2025, with the accounts submitted to the Department of Transport prior to publication.  Upon completion of the comprehensive testing process, it was concluded that the software was demonstrably not suitable for training or commissioning. Regrettably, therefore, six years on and two years after the original commissioning date, Indra still does not have a developed product fit for safe deployment on our rail network. On 22 June the Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann board reached decisions regarding the existing Indra contracts and the proposed way forward to deliver a necessary replacement of the existing signalling control system and we formally sought the approval of the NTA to implement those board decisions.  The committee will appreciate that, with the acceptance by the NTA of the decision relating to Indra, and as a result of sensitive commercial and legal considerations at this point, we may be unable to give absolute clarity on aspects of the decision at this time. I sincerely apologise to the committee for this in advance but I assure it that we are seeking to act in a way that can deliver the TMS component of this project in a manner that supports our wider investment programme, protects today's railway and minimises any future exposure of the taxpayer.  I am joined today by my colleague, Mr. Paul Hendrick, director of capital investment and we welcome questions from the committee. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Please note that we will suspend the meeting at approximately 12.30 p.m. for a short 15 minute break and resume shortly thereafter.  I open the floor to members. The lead speaker today is Deputy Paul Murphy, who has 15 minutes. All other members have ten minutes. If time permits, we will allow members in for a second round of shorter slots. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  I thank the witnesses for coming before us and for the extensive briefing documents. One of the things that struck me was the diagram of a long saga, which has resulted in approximately \u20ac50 million of public money being effectively flushed down the drain and us still not being very far along on what we clearly desperately need in a new traffic management system.  My starting question is: who is responsible for this disaster? Where does responsibility lie? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  I will answer first. We have already clarified, in terms of the infrastructure guidelines, what the roles of each of the organisations are but both organisations continue to work together and collaborate for the successful delivery, in the same way as we work with all our sponsoring agencies on all our projects. The delivery of the project and contract that is in place sits with Irish Rail. That does not mean the NTA does not continue to support that work and provide oversight and advice as part of that. I do not know whether Ms Considine wants to add anything. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  I thank Deputy Murphy. I can hear his frustration about where we are. There is deep regret right across Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann that we are in this position. However, as I outlined in my opening statement and as we detailed in the joint appendix, every opportunity has been given to the contractor to deliver. There has been significant support, including third party specialist support, to help it and we find ourselves in a very difficult position. The reality is that we now need to move at the earliest opportunity to make decisions that will allow us to put in place a traffic control system and minimise any further exposure of the Exchequer. We have a significant role to play in providing public transport and ensuring we have a reliable service and we want to future-proof the expansion of the railway. That is ultimately what we want to do in the most cost effective manner. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  Sure. Effectively what the witnesses are saying is that Indra is responsible. Fine. I agree from what I have read that Indra screwed over Irish Rail, the NTA and the public but the question is why we signed such a contract that has allowed it to do so.  Let us go back to the start. There were two bidders for the contract, which seems like a small number. Who made the decision that Indra would get the contract? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  There was an extensive procurement process, including market research, market consultation and engagement. Ultimately, seven bidders pre-qualified and two were appointed. They went through a technical review by the team and then Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann, in the determining of that, hired specialists, Ricardo rail, to advise it on the appointment. Separately, I understand, while I do not speak for the NTA, that the NTA hired Jacobs to review the tender. All of that was done. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  Did the private company Ricardo make the decision? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  No, it advised Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  Who made the decision? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  Ultimately, it was Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann, based on a 242 page compliance document that Indra supplied, which showed it met 96% of the compliance criteria. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  The board of Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann ultimately made the decision. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  Yes, subject to the funding of the approving authority. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  Was there appropriate technical expertise on the board to make that decision, including digital and IT expertise, to be able to make the decision that this was the correct bidder or was the board just led by what Ricardo said? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  I believe there was appropriate experience on the board. I was not there at the time. I do not know whether my colleague can interject but we do rely on technical expertise for advice. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  I was not in the business at the time either but all the projects in this scenario go through a standard process. They go through a standard procurement evaluation and follow set criteria for the project team and any outside technical advisers the team has on the project. That leads to a recommendation based on a scoring system for that bid and the recommendation goes to the Irish Rail board for a decision.  The membership of the board changes from time to time based on tenure but there are typically one or two non-executive board directors who have technical backgrounds and then there are other business specialists. We would have to go back to check who was on the board at the time but we follow a set process. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  When one reads through it, what seems to be a key factor is that, effectively, part of the contract says that the proposed product solution is to have a minimum of 70% of system requirements without the need for further software. That is part of the compliance matrix. Indra said not to worry about that, that it would do 96%. There would be 4% new but that it had this great thing, DaVinci 2.0, which is working elsewhere and that it could be used. Indra got the contract on that basis and then a few months later it said it turned out that they are not going to continue to support that product - it is Indra's product but it was not going to be able to continue to support it, which does not seem to make any sense; it seems to be a choice about obsolescence made by Indra - and that a new version, DaVinci 3.0, would be needed. Then, according to the project statement:  The project team, supported by expert consultant review from Turas and Ricardo Rail, [which designed the tender process in the first place] determined that Indra\u2019s approach remained compliant with the TMS contract.  This seems to be at the heart of the problem. The tendering process was based on contractors having to have software already in place. Indra won the contract on the basis of having said it did and then after getting the contract, it said it would have to develop new software, yet that was found not to be a breach of the contract. Is that the core of the problem? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  I might refer - and then I will hand over to Mr. Hendrick for more detail - to 1.18 in our appendix document. As part of its bid, Indra outlined the technological evolution of its DaVinci 1.0 to DaVinci 2.0, that is how it evolved over the lifetime of the product. Therefore, that, with the advice our team sought from external experts, all led them to believe that Indra was still compliant with the contract. Specific advice was sought at the time from Ricardo and Turas to make sure Indra was still compliant with the original contract and that was the advice given to Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  Does that suggest there was a problem with the contract? Indra won the contract by saying it had the software and then said it would need new software and that would take a bunch of time. Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann still does not have it. This new software does not exist anywhere in the world according to the documents. Does that not indicate there was a problem with the contract? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  Quite a number of assurances were given at the time that the company's generic product had already been in development since 2018. Safety assurance would have been got on that, and that feedback would have been given back. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  Forget about those assurances. They are clearly worthless now so, in hindsight, was there a problem with the contract? Should we not have signed it, if it allowed the company to win it on one basis and then to say that it needed new software? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  In reality, Indra is a multibillion-dollar company that provides systems all over the world. It pointed to its 15-year history of 21 successful redeployments all over the rail network globally. I was not there at the time but I spoke at length to our team, and there was no reason to believe that in the context of the bid put forward, which had gone through all the technical scrutiny and was passed by not only Irish Rail but also the specialists advising us, Indra was not developing its generic product, as it led us to believe, and that it was evolving situation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  Surely we should have had a contract that would not have left Irish Rail having to rely on Indra's good faith and on whether it believed things or not. We should surely have had a contract that said the company had to have the software already and could not be developing new software. Is that not a fundamental flaw here, that happened right at the start of the development of the contract? Ms Considine does not agree. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  The advice to the company at the time did not agree with that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  Was that the advice to Irish Rail from Ricardo? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  The advice provided to Irish Rail did not support terminating the contract. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  Yes, but again, does this not go back to the point that this suggests there was a problem with the original contract? If the contract allowed Indra to win this competition on the basis that it had the software, and then the company was able to say it did not have the software, either it was in breach of the contract or there was a problem with the contract. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  We follow an open tender process, in the Official Journal of the European Union, OJEU, and have a competition open to the EU market to respond. There are a set of requirements in the contract that allows the open market to respond in the pre-qualification and bid stages. In the contract, Indra was, effectively, the designer hired. It was a design-and-build contract, so Indra was hired to deploy what is its system but to meet the client's requirements. In picking that process, we cannot overprescribe the solution we want. We have to have a set of output requirements in the contract to make it a compliant EU procurement process.  It was a surprise to the team when Indra moved from DaVinci 2.0 to DaVinci 3.0. That was not expected. I fully agree that was not expected to happen. In the discussions around it, it was seen as a normal product development process for these products, because there was previously a DaVinci 1.0. It was rolled out as part of a number of applications. Indra then moved to DaVinci 2.0, which it had been running for about ten years, and it was moving to the next version of it. The company was adamant that the next version was, effectively, going to continue to give the underlying 96% compliance and that it was going to be a better product than the previous one and the one it was going to support.  The experience we have had since that clearly shows that something has gone wrong between Indra moving from DaVinci 2.0 to DaVinci 3.0, which is where we are now, because if we got DaVinci 2.0 that other jurisdictions have, we should not be in the position we are in now. That is fully acknowledged. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  Yes. In terms of lessons being learned, if we are just going to repeat the process of having these kinds of vague contracts that can be changed by companies that are just interested in maximising their own profit, we are going to repeat this experience again. Are there no lessons to be learned in terms of the type of contract signed? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  There absolutely are lessons to be learned and there is----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  Are there lessons about the contract? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  I do not see anything materially wrong with the contract itself. Going forward, I think we need to consider the process. The textbook would always say that you would do an open tendering process for major engineering and construction projects and go out and seek tenders from the open market. Those who can comply with the client requirements that have been put together would then have the ability to get into the evaluation process. If they succeed in the evaluation process, they win and you appoint them. That would be standard.  However, that is not always the right way to deliver a major engineering and construction project. An open tender process can sometimes lead to the potential issues we have experienced. A direct award approach or a direct discussion with a particular supplier who has a specific product that meets the needs of the business could be used. That is usually seen, however, as not being the default way to run a public procurement process for a major engineering project. We can definitely take on board lessons around the process. I would say that the contract, and how it was structured, was not an unusual one. I do not think there are any major----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  Is Irish Rail going to attempt to get back any of the \u20ac31 million we have given to Indra? Is there any prospect of that happening? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  I know I am repeating what I said in my opening statement, but we are at a sensitive stage and looking at all options under legal advice. We will, however, be looking at everything to minimise the exposure for the taxpayer. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  Indra has another contract, an integrated ticketing contract with the NTA. In its opening statement, the NTA said that the contracting mechanism is different from that for the NTCC contract, with payment due only following the successful delivery of each of 34 key milestones. Does that mean that the payment for this contract was not contingent on the delivery of key milestones? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  The contract we have is called a new engineering contract, NEC, target cost contract, which is quite a common contract used on major engineering projects in Ireland, the UK and the rest of Europe. It is also used for other contracts in the public transport sphere, including other schemes the NTA would oversee. The nature of this contract is such that it effectively shares any pain and gain up to a point. In other words, if a project is finished below the target price, the gain is shared between the contractor and the client, and if the project overruns against the target price, there is pain sharing, up to a cap, after which the supplier takes all the pain. It is also a contract that gives full visibility to the client team in terms of the actual resources and costs being incurred on the project. Effectively, interim progress payments are paid against those fully transparent costs.  We did, through commercial reset number two, as the Deputy might have seen in the statement, at the end of 2024, introduce additional performance milestones given our concerns. We actually had a bit of a hybrid contract at the end, where we had a combination of approaches. We did have a milestone approach in the end but, unfortunately, that milestone approach has not succeeded, obviously, in terms of how it turned out. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  When we look at this, the number of private companies involved in it is quite something. A private company, Ricardo, is designing the contract. There is Turas, Indra obviously, and then this engineering company is brought in to look at it. Will Mr. Hendrick list all the private companies involved in this contract in one way or another? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  It is worth saying that in the context of the major projects we deliver, we have inside Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann a train operations business, which is pretty much a directly employed staff model, an infrastructure engineering business that manages the steady-state infrastructure and a mechanical rolling stock business that manages all the train fleets in terms of maintenance. Those are predominantly directly employed models where there are Irish Rail payroll staff. For major projects, though, and we must consider the cyclical nature of these, we did have a capital investments unit back in the 2000s. When the recession hit, that unit was closed. No capital was available.  We re-established the capital investments unit as a business in late 2018 as we were coming out of the austerity era. We have 200 staff on our books who work in that business, dedicated to developing and delivering major capital infrastructure projects. When the projects go to the delivery phase, we are much more market-facing, so we are reliant on the support of the supply chain in terms of the major contractors and professional advisers. We do not have the funding to be able to guarantee directly employing that level of staff because we are only funded on an annual basis. Each year, our funding could drop. We cannot guarantee that we will have any work for them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  Is this not the consequence of the hollowed-out neoliberal state, where everything is outsourced? Irish Rail is relying on one company to develop a contract and another company to fulfil it. The end result is that the public pays the price. Would it not be better value for money if Irish Rail actually had the appropriate staff to be able to do some of this management and so on? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  It is a balancing act. We have to try to strike a balance. This is a particularly niche project for the railway. It is a very complex project. The type of skill sets and people we need are not commonly available. Therefore, this type of project results in having to lean in more towards bringing in specialists temporarily because we could not guarantee that level of work for a niche, specialist project. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  I thank Mr. Hendrick. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanna Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joanna Byrne  I thank all the witnesses for joining us. I will stay with the procurement process for the moment. We have established that the board of Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann was responsible for awarding the contract after the procurement process. On the issue of due diligence, Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann's statement highlighted that Indra's system integration plan referenced a 15-year history of 21 successful deployments, which is understandable.  Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann sought specialist advice from Ricardo Rail before proceeding to contract stage. Am I right on that? Did Ricardo Rail do due diligence with regard to the delivery of projects that Indra claimed to have completed in other countries? Did Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann do that? Who was responsible for due diligence and for the reassurances that Indra was capable of doing what it had tendered for? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  The team that worked on the project right through from development to delivery was a hybrid team. There was Irish Rail staff on the team, supported or augmented by the specialist providers with expertise from Ricardo Rail. As part of the procurement process starting in 2015, they went through a market research stage to understand what suppliers were out there and what type of products and technologies were available on the market before putting the requirements together. That also involved an interested candidate who could potentially deliver the work coming to meet Irish Rail before the formal procurement process started, where it could engage in one-on-one discussions to understand what was possible. The market consultation was done once the process was started to look at the requirements and how we had set up the contract in order to make sure we got the right structure for delivering the project. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanna Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joanna Byrne  There is a 15-year documented history that led to Indra winning the tender. It was awarded the contract in 2020. Shortly afterwards, in 2021, concerns were raised and difficulties arose with regard to commitments it was not able to fulfil in Lithuania. That is a short period, despite its supposedly long-standing history of being able to deliver. That is what I am trying to get at. Was the due diligence sufficient or were there downfalls in that regard? If there were, whose feet did they fall at? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Ultimately, Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann is responsible for the procurement, management and delivery of the project, irrespective of the support we have from the supply chain. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanna Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joanna Byrne  Coming back to 2021, concerns were noticed at that stage. Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann was reassured in 2021 that the generic product would still be delivered, and it was not. Why did it take Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann until 2025 to raise concerns with the NTA and say it did not have confidence in the project being delivered? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  If we go through the whole project, there was regular interaction between Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann and NTA all the way through. There were monthly interactions. There were progress challenges on the project in 2022 and we put together the first commercial reset of the contract. That was done in conjunction with the NTA. As it is the approving authority, we do not make any of those arrangements without its approval. It has the right to reject any proposals and to support us if it thinks the proposal makes sense. We engaged with the NTA throughout the contract. On commercial reset number 1, where we extended the completion timeline by five months, we did it with the support of the NTA.  When we went through the delivery phase during 2023, the hardware was installed in the NTCC building, which was a positive progress milestone for Indra. It eventually completed the generic product, which its project was reliant on, in late 2023. That was another positive progress sign. However, the detailed software development, which only became visible to the project team in early 2024, is where we heard serious alarm bells as a project team. At that point, we escalated those concerns to the NTA to flag that we had done reset number 1, were four years into the project and had serious concerns about whether Indra would be able to successfully complete the project. We started that discussion in summer 2024, and then again in 2025. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanna Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joanna Byrne  On a separate point, Spain's supreme court in May of this year upheld a \u20ac13.5 million fine against Indra for participating in a price-fixing and market-sharing cartel. This dates from an original judgment in 2023. Was Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann aware of that throughout 2023 to 2026? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  I am not sure. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanna Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joanna Byrne  We are looking at a loss of tens of millions in Irish taxpayers' money to a company that engaged in cartel-like behaviour because of a decision made by Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann and insufficient due diligence as to the company's capability to deliver a project. What does Mr. Hendrick say to the Irish people in that regard? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  I cannot comment on the particular case. I am genuinely not familiar with it or au fait with it. Indra is an organisation with a turnover of \u20ac5 billion-plus and it is successfully delivering projects across the globe in many sectors. We went through a clear, comprehensive procurement process, as we do on all our projects. Indra was the legitimate successful applicant. We deeply regret how this project has panned out with Indra. This was not what we expected. I have 25 years of major infrastructure project experience. This is unprecedented. Every project has problems and challenges - every single project I have worked on - but you work through it and overcome it, and deliver on time and in budget. Sometimes it goes slightly over, but you always get the project delivered eventually.  Looking back on the last 25 or 30 years, Irish Rail does a lot of major engineering construction-type contracts, given the nature of the railway. We cannot point to another example of this occurring in Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann. I cannot point to another example of this in my career dealing with major projects. That is not to excuse it, but it is really unprecedented. We are genuinely surprised given the capability of the organisation, delivering a project probably worth \u20ac5 million per annum to it when it is turning over \u20ac5 billion per annum and has tens of thousands of people working across the globe. We were sure this would not be a problem for it and that it would eventually overcome the issues that arose. That was our expectation. Was that reasonable based on the evidence at the time? We thought it was. Our experience has led us to a different position now. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanna Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joanna Byrne  On a more positive and parochial note, and picking up on Mr. Hendrick's line about getting there eventually, I will move on to my home town of Drogheda. It is the largest town and next emerging city in Ireland. When the NTA was with us in January, I asked about the possibility of a north Drogheda train station. I understand it falls outside the greater Dublin area and was not an issue for the NTA, but it would be remiss of me not to use the opportunity of having Irish Rail here with us. Ms Considine has said she is open to the possibility of a train station on the north side of Drogheda. Is there any light at the end of the tunnel with regard to securing that? Louth County Council has just been awarded funding for phase 3 of the port access-northern cross route, which unlocks the land that was a barrier in moving towards that. What concerns me is that a developer is seeking planning permission, which has been refused in recent weeks by Louth County Council. It was deemed an incomplete application. He is seeking to develop on land that has been earmarked, going back 20 or 25 years, for a train station. It includes land owned by Irish Rail. Concern is growing among elected officials in Drogheda, past and present, and the people of Drogheda, who are seeing a huge population burst with all the development going on. Commuters in Drogheda are getting increasingly frustrated by the lack of parking and their inability to utilise facilities on the south side of town around MacBride railway station. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  To start on a positive note, the first fleet order will be coming into service on the new DART+. We have the charging station in Drogheda, and the new Enterprise fleet to serve Drogheda is also on order. There are many positive things happening for commuters in the area. I hear the Deputy's concerns about infrastructure. I have had discussions with Louth County Council around the new north Drogheda station. We are hearing about parking and a study completed earlier this year points to that.  To the Deputy's question on the station and parking, both of those are subject to funding. There is a constrained pot of funding. One of the discussions I had with the CEO was about whether there were other ways, such as through development levies, of funding the station.  At the moment, we do not have the funding allocated for that. It is something that will be kept under continuous review by us and the NTA, as the funding authority. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanna Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joanna Byrne  Is that the main barrier? I am sorry, Chair, I understand I am over time. Is that the main barrier at the moment? There is consensus and a will for a train station in the north of Drogheda. That is what I am picking up. Without committing the witnesses to anything, is funding the main barrier? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  There are funding constraints. We will always look at what is possible. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  It is good to see some of the witnesses again. I hope the feeling is mutual. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  Always. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  I would say that is the case. This is a \"Yes\" or \"No\" question. Was this the first project in Ireland in which Indra was involved? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hugh Creegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Hugh Creegan  No. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  What were the other projects in which it was involved? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hugh Creegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Hugh Creegan  It was involved with the Dublin Port tunnel when it was being built. Indra put in the control system for that tunnel. It has also been involved with some toll schemes around the country. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  Have the projects in which it has been involved in Ireland always been successful and delivered on time and on budget? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hugh Creegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Hugh Creegan  It is going back over 20 years. I have no knowledge that it has not, if I could answer in that way. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  Is Indra the main contractor for the next generation ticketing? It is. How can the public have any faith that Indra is going to do this successfully? I know that the witnesses will point to 15 years of success and why Indra was appointed for this project in particular. I ask the witnesses to be brief. How can the public have any faith that Indra will successfully do next generation ticketing? That is not even getting into the issue of next generation ticketing itself. How can the public have any faith that it will be delivered on time and on budget with this private company? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  Currently, the next generation ticketing project is being delivered on time and on budget. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  It is currently. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  Key milestones are being achieved. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  That is not the case in Cork, but----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  That gives us some confidence. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  It is not being delivered in Cork right now. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  The scope of the project does not yet include Cork. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  It definitely does not. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  Within the scope of the project that has been commissioned, Indra is delivering on time and on budget. It is fair to say that prior to engaging any contractor or vendor to deliver this system, there was quite an extensive piece of work undertaken by the NTA, again with external expertise to provide us with that. There was a pre-mortem, if you like, of all the things that needed to be covered off before we did the specification and went out to market, as well as all the market engagement. Again,----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  Ms Shaw has full confidence that Indra will deliver next generation ticketing across the country. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  Given the current performance, the positive collaboration between the teams and how it is being managed within the NTA and the governance and oversight that exists----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  Has this project given Ms Shaw, as the person in charge of the NTA, any questions as to whether Indra will definitely deliver? Can she see herself coming before the committee in a couple of years' time to speak about Indra not delivering next generation ticketing on time and on budget? I hope that will not be the case. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  I hope not, too. Having reviewed where we are within this particular project, I have confidence in my own team and their expertise and the relationship they have with Indra, and the way that the contract is being managed and set up. This is a very different kind of system to rail, which has more complex considerations. That is why they are different contracts. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  I hope so, for the benefit of the public, who have suffered on a number of occasions. On Irish Rail, who is the one person who has accountability over this project? Is it one of the witnesses? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  Ultimately, as an executive team, we have accountability. We report to a board of directors who ultimately make decisions. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  How many are on the executive team? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  Today, there are 11. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  Are all 11 taking responsibility? Does one particular individual on the executive team that was over this project now take accountability for it? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  There would have been a number of changes to the team since the project was initiated and----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  Is there someone on the executive team right now who was also on the executive team when it was initiated? How many? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  Not from a capital investment perspective, no. There has been a change at director level. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  Who took over the running of this project? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  Mr. Hendrick's area would have taken over the running of the project. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  How many people are working in Mr. Hendrick's area? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  We have 200 staff across the whole portfolio of projects, including DART+, the Cork area commuter rail programme, Ceannt Station and other projects. There is a project team from Irish Rail that was managing this particular project. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  How many are on that team? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  There are probably five or six staff and they are supported by external----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  What consequences have those staff members faced? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  They are still working through the project and managing the issues. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  What consequences have they faced for the loss of \u20ac50 million? Is the answer \"None\"? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  I am meaning to go back through the process here. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  I am asking a simple question. What consequences did those people face? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  For Indra's lack of a development of a product----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  For their accountability over this project and their lack of governance of the project. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  I do not think----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  For the loss of \u20ac50 million from the taxpayer. What consequences have those people faced? Have there been any consequences in terms of their job specification or pay, for example? I am not necessarily saying that money should be taken from them in any way, shape or form. What consequences have those people faced? The reason I ask is that if I were working in a private company, which those people are not, and lost \u20ac50 million, I would probably be sacked. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  I will come in. Ultimately, if somebody was found to have done something wrong, we would be taking action. The reality is that our team have, through their best endeavours, done everything to support this project. They have leant in. They have tried to make up the gaps, but fundamentally, when you strip it all back, we have a contractor that has an underdeveloped project and it has not delivered for us. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  Understandably----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  That is really disappointing. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  Understandably, there are a lot of questions to be asked of the contractor. There were five or six individuals within Irish Rail who had accountability over this project. As well as the contractor, those individuals failed to deliver it. They ultimately lost \u20ac50 million of taxpayers' money and are now facing absolutely no consequences. They can walk away from this thinking that despite losing \u20ac50 million for the taxpayer, they do not have to face any consequences. They have faced no consequences. I am not saying they will, but what if they go again and lose another \u20ac50 million for the taxpayer? They would again face no consequences. Do the witnesses take my point on board? Do they agree with my point that if I were working for a private company and lost \u20ac50 million, I could be sacked or demoted? Those are just two options. Do the witnesses accept that, \"Yes\" or \"No\"? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  I----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  I am asking for a \"Yes\" or a \"No\". "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  I understand what the Deputy is saying. The project team worked on a project that delivered a building that was brought in on time and on budget, and all the other elements. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  I am not necessarily saying that the project team did not work hard, but they failed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  I would----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  In terms of the \u20ac50 million, they failed. It is a \"Yes\" or \"No\" question. Does Ms Considine believe that if those five or six people were working for a private company they would have faced consequences? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  If they had not done their jobs, had not reported and had not put the appropriate governance in place, there would have been consequences. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  They obviously did not put the appropriate governance----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  They flagged and reported----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  They obviously did not put the appropriate governance in place because they lost \u20ac50 million for the taxpayer. They did not lose the money to themselves. They obviously could not care less. The taxpayer lost \u20ac50 million. What consequences did those people face? Does Ms Considine accept that those people who were over this project face absolutely no consequence now for losing \u20ac50 million? That is a \"Yes\" or \"No\" question. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  I do not accept that they face no consequences. I think----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  So what consequences----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  -----they are very disappointed and----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  What consequences----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  -----regret the decision. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  Ms Considine does not accept that they did not face any consequences. That is fine and good. What consequences did they face? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  They are working hard to try to resolve this issue. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  There is no disputing the fact that they are working hard. I am not saying they are not. They are probably five or six very competent individuals. I do not know them. What consequences do those people face right now? I will reiterate the point. If I were working in a private company and lost \u20ac50 million for the owner of that private company, I am sure that I would be demoted, sacked, subject to a loss of pay or whatever else. What consequences do those people face? Is the answer \"None\"? Do they ultimately face no consequences? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  Well---- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  They will not be demoted. They will not lose out on any pay. They will walk away at 5 p.m. or 6 p.m. I am not disputing that they work hard, but they ultimately face no consequences. We can see it from the Irish taxpayers' point of view. Ms Considine is an Irish taxpayer. All around this room are representatives of the Irish taxpayers. They are watching today and hearing that five or six individuals lost \u20ac50 million of their money and ultimately will face no consequences at all. They will not be demoted. They will not lose any pay. They obviously will not be sacked. They will ultimately face no consequences. What stops them and Irish Rail as a whole from doing something along these lines again in the future, with a lack of governance and accountability and whatever else, and facing no consequences again because they did not face any consequences for the loss of \u20ac50 million? There is nothing to stop that.  We have a systemic issue right across the State. I am not necessarily saying it is an issue that is limited to Irish Rail, but it also affects Irish Rail. A significant number of people across the State are working for the State and face absolutely zero consequences for the lack of delivery of projects or failure in respect of the spending of public money.  The witnesses spoke to Deputy Murphy in particular about lessons learned. Will the NTA and Irish Rail identify one decision that should have been taken six months before this was brought to the board's attention? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  We have an independent review that is ongoing and it will report in September. It will look at all of the governance and key decision points taken throughout, from the beginning of pre-procurement to where we find ourselves today. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  It is ad hoc right now, knowing the project and the delivery of----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  Hindsight is something----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  Yes, hindsight. We have heard about hindsight loads of times. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  With the information available and the expertise provided to the NTA and Irish Rail in making the decisions that have been made in the past, those were felt to be the right decisions in order to successfully deliver the traffic management system as well as, as Ms Considine has said, to reduce the cost exposure to the public purse. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  Very briefly, what is the relationship between the NTA and Irish Rail now? How good is it? Does the NTA ask Irish Rail what it is doing? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  We are both agencies of the State. We work collaboratively together on a large number of projects. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  The must be some sort of anger among staff members of the NTA, saying Irish Rail messed this up. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  Where things go wrong, we need to support each other to make sure we can successfully conclude and put things right, and that is the relationship we have. We continue to work together to deliver all of the other projects we are involved in together and to make sure we still deliver a traffic management system for the railway network and do it positively with both teams. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  As a Mallow man, I can say the Cork commuter rail line is going very well, so I thank the witnesses. Well done. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  As Mr. Hendrick has said, sometimes things go wrong on projects and it is about how we deal with them. For me, looking at Irish Rail and the NTA, the question is how both continued to support, approve, fund and defend a failing project for years after serious warning signs emerged. Not only that, and the witnesses might clarify the figure for me, but it looks as though as much, if not more, was spent on project support as there was paid and committed to Indra. That is a serious red flag and should have been picked up well before now. Ms Considine might tell me how much we have paid in project support to prop up this fiasco. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  In total, I believe it is \u20ac28 million or \u20ac29 million. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  Is Ms Considine sure it is \u20ac29 million? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  Third-party costs and project support amount to \u20ac29 million. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  What about Irish Rail's internal costs? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  They are about \u20ac2.6 million. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  We are over \u20ac30 million, which is a similar amount to what we paid to Indra. In terms of looking at the NTA, there is a serious oversight failure here. Irish Rail warned the NTA repeatedly, the NTA approved multiple resets, a commercial reset, budgeting increases and continuation after confidence collapsed. The NTA explicitly resisted a development of plan B last year. The NTA took a hands-on role from mid-2025. That is not oversight; it is being complicit in this whole fiasco.  I want to look at the correspondence sent to us in April. The NTA sent us correspondence in April and attached board minutes of Irish Rail. The tone of the correspondence the NTA sent to us is of a project that is delayed but progressing through testing and that has future delivery phases. Yet, the Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann board minutes of February, several weeks earlier, record significant concerns about the contractor's ability to deliver the programme and note that the CP1 project is only a small portion of the scope and that Irish Rail directors were deeply concerned. My question to the NTA is to ask why the picture was painted to the Committee of Public Accounts that this was a project progressing. More importantly, was it trying to paint the same picture to the major project governance and oversight group as it was to the committee or was it actually conveying Irish Rail's concerns to the oversight group? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  To answer the first question, I do not think we have been painting a rosy picture. We have been working on a number of key decision points with Irish Rail with, as we have already mentioned, expert advice about the different resets that have happened over the lifetime of this project. With the information available at the time, I think those were considered to be the right decisions to move forward, with the ultimate aim of delivering the traffic management system for the railway network.  The reports we gave to the committee in April were about the reset to look at CP1. CP1 was progressing well at that time. We worked with Irish Rail and Indra in terms of that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  Just to note, the Irish Rail board of directors was deeply concerned and Ms Shaw is saying it was progressing well. Just to note, there is a serious difference there. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  We got an agreed approach in terms of what we were doing with the reset that had been done and to move forward with just CP1 and the Rosslare section of the network. That was progressing to plan and was being reported on that basis.  Just to say in terms of MPGOG, there were a number of occasions when we attended MPGOG and Irish Rail also came and gave a deep dive on the projects. MPGOG also has independent expertise that understands railway systems sitting on it. There are six independent experts on that governance and oversight group. Lots of questions are asked and there are lots of discussions, including about confidence in delivery. I do not think we have been painting a rosy picture----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  I certainly feel the NTA was painting a picture to the Committee of Public Accounts that was different from the picture that Irish Rail was expressing. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  At that point in time when we came before the committee in April, that particular CP1 element, because that was what all the information was based on, was progressing----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  I am talking about correspondence in April. It was very different in tone from what the Irish Rail board minutes were saying. I have serious issues with that and I hope Ms Shaw can confirm to me that MPGOG was fully aware of Irish Rail's concerns and did not just have the picture the NTA was painting to us. It is important. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell  I will come in on MPGOG. It is worth noting that we have been very concerned about this project for a number of years and we have been kept informed on the issues. From an MPGOG perspective, at the time period in question we all knew that April would be a key milestone with delivery of the software. When the NTA was reporting into MPGOG we all knew that once the software was seen, CP1 would be viable from the timelines indicated. In the most recent meetings of MPGOG, in May and June, we had extensive discussions about how the software testing was going and the next steps. It is really important for the Department that we get the project onto a sustainable footing and go forward on the best possible basis. For MPGOG itself, we also have a mechanism in place to report to the Minister each quarter. The Minister and the management board have been kept informed of these issues. I do not think it is fair to say the NTA----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  So everyone knew this was a failing project and no one stepped in to resolve it. Is that what Mr. Campbell is saying? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell  I think that what MPGOG wanted to see was that Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann and the NTA were taking the expected steps and I believe they were. When the re-baselined programme was agreed in November 2024 it made the project more deliverable for Indra. Everyone agreed it would be easier to deliver CP1, acknowledging it was a relatively small commissioning for use. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  I do not accept that. We are spending as much in project support to prop up a failed project and a contractor that was failing repeatedly to deliver. Everyone from the NTA to the Department was fine with that. It is not acceptable and it is not good enough. The taxpayer is rightly annoyed.  My next question is on the correspondence between the NTA and Irish Rail this week. I noted an article in The Irish Times today that seems to indicate the NTA is pointing fingers at Irish Rail and that it is saying this is its financial problem and if it wants to terminate the contract, it should do it but it will have to pay the consequences. Is that the position? How will that affect major projects and services? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  I do not think that is a correct assumption from what Deputy Boland has read in The Irish Times today. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  Ms Shaw might please share the letter with the committee after the meeting. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  We will try but with the caveat that if there are any commercial sensitivities----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  They can be redacted. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  We will try to get it to the committee. In terms of answering the question, we have considered the decision of the Irish Rail board. When we met the Oireachtas joint committee a couple of weeks ago, we said we would expeditiously deal with the matter so as to make sure things can be taken forward as swiftly as possible in the interests of the Irish taxpayer as well. We need to assess the consequences of these discussions and the continued delivery of the traffic management system. We still need to make sure we deliver the traffic management system for the railway for existing and new services planned over the investment programme. We need to consider what the financial impact requirement is and look across the wider programme to make sure we can continue to deliver that as well.  It will be a case of rephasing and reprioritising certain things over that period of time but ultimately to make sure that we deliver that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  Given that Irish Rail raised concerns last year, and the NTA is now saying it is a decision for Irish Rail, why was Irish Rail not allowed terminate last year and explore plan B? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  I think that at that time the Irish Rail board, having reviewed the information and the proposals, did not make that request. The agreement between the organisations and the board----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  Does Ms Shaw mean that Irish Rail did not make the request in writing? Is Ms Shaw saying that it is just because Irish Rail did not make the request in writing, notwithstanding that it has been raising serious red flags to the NTA since 2023, and we are now suggesting that it terminates? I assume that it was agreed between the NTA and Irish Rail that it would not be put in writing. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  There were discussions with various options about how this project could move forward. The decision of the Irish Rail board at that time was to move forward doing the Rosslare section and the CP1 section as well. With the information that is now available----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  Was the phasing not agreed after Irish Rail suggested terminating? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  Does Mr. Creegan want to come in here? There were discussions around the various options, and it was agreed by all parties, including the Irish Rail board, to move forward with the option that was progressed over last year. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hugh Creegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Hugh Creegan  The phasing proposal was developed in 2024 but what changes----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  After Irish Rail had suggested terminating. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hugh Creegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Hugh Creegan  It was after a discussion about the problems the project had and the options to deal with them. We then convened a tripartite meeting with ourselves, Indra and Irish Rail to go through the options. Out of that, Indra was required to produce a remedial plan, and it did produce a plan shortly after that. It looked a credible plan, and on that basis, we moved forward at that time. In 2025, because I think the Deputy mentioned it, we focused activity on the first phase called CP1, which she is aware of. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  How much has it cost us since 2024 to continue with this failed project? If we had terminated it two years ago or even last year, how much would we have saved? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Since the summer of 2025, we have probably incurred an expenditure of close to \u20ac10 million. I will have to come back to the Deputy to confirm that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  Is that with Indra, all external factors and Irish Rail's costs? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  That is the total project cost and a lot of that would be in the assessment and in the financial statements in the write down. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  I thank the witnesses for being here and for their continued presence. It is clearly a project that has gone horribly wrong for both Irish Rail and the NTA but, ultimately, for the taxpayer as well. I was struck to hear from the NTA that it has commissioned an independent review of this project, to look at issues of governance, delivery and project oversight. Do the witnesses agree with me that commissioning an independent review is an offensive waste of public money? I would argue that Ms Shaw and her organisation are fully aware of what has gone wrong here. Ms Considine and her organisation are fully aware of what has gone wrong here, and Mr. Campbell and the Department are fully aware of what has gone wrong here. Given the prevalence of private involvement and consultancy, or whatever we want to call it, misguide advice, throughout, why do we need a third party to bring together all of this data that was shared with us today to tell us what has gone wrong? What is the budget for that independent review? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hugh Creegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Hugh Creegan  I think it is \u20ac226,000. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  Some \u20ac226,000, to do what? We know the flaws and problems. Mr. Hendrick has spoken about the lessons that need to be learned. Other than to try to assuage the very taxpayer that has been robbed of this service and of this money, this makes no sense. Who is doing that review? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  EY is doing the review but I think it is important to have an independent report, so that neither organisation can be accused of trying to put a different picture on the information. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  Who is paying for that report? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  It is coming out of the NTA budget. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  How is it independent, if the NTA is paying for it? It is an absolute offensive waste of a quarter of a million euro. I ask the NTA to reconsider whether it is necessary. I do not think it is. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  I still think the independent nature of the outputs and recommendations----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  It will not be independent. With respect Ms Shaw, there will be no independence. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  -----will provide us with the lessons learned. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  It appears that Indra was provided with this contract for the delivery of the project, based on its core TMS project. That is how I understood the witnesses very welcome briefing documents. It was because it had a solid and flexible logic. That is what was quoted. Indra also advised the witnesses of a 15-year history of 21 successful deployments across a number of different countries. Are the witnesses aware of anybody in their organisations who met with colleagues from any of those 21 deployments to hear from them about their experiences of working with this service provider? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  I believe there have been discussion with Lithuania and other countries. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  Were they prior to the contract being awarded? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  I could not confirm that. I am not certain. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  We know what happened afterwards. I am curious about what due diligence was done before the contracts were signed. Was it simply the case that because of its size and scale we took Indra's word for it, or did we do our due diligence to make sure that we spoke to those who worked with this organisation before? From the perspective of the NTA, did anybody meet with any of those countries that signed these contracts with Indra prior to signing that agreement? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  No, not that I am aware of. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  Is it industry standard for a tender brief to be 50% on cost and 50% on qualitative submission? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  It depends on the type of project. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  Is it industry standard? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  No, because sometimes it can be 30:70 in terms of cost and quality. It can be 70:30. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  Who made the determination that this was the appropriate ratio, 50% on cost and 50% on what has turned out to be a myth. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann; we would have as a business. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  What the rationale for that decision? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  As part of the market research and market consultation process that we went through before we actually started the procurement competition, we would have taken on board how important it was to ensure that we did not make it a price sensitive decision. In other words, if it was 80% price and 20% quality, there was a risk then that somebody would have a weighted opportunity to win the bid with potentially a price that did not reflect the quality of what is needed. So, the quality of what we were going to get on this really complex project was really important and that would have had a bearing on trying to get the quality up as a strong factor in the evaluations such that----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann could have gone 60% or 70% with the quality then. It could have done that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Agreed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  I do not know how it could have been a decent qualitative submission if it was a promise or a hope of delivery, not \"This is what we do\" because Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann was dependent on software that did not exist. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Going back ten years ago, a lot of the criteria would have been weighted towards price but given the scale and the complexity of the projects that we are facing, we have already moved going forward to a model that is along the lines of what the Deputy just mentioned there. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  Was Indra the cheapest bidder? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  It was. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  By how much? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  There was a maintenance price and a capital price on the bid. There was a capital price for the works, and then there was a maintenance proposal to support the maintenance of the asset when it was built but on the capital price it was probably about 50% cheaper than the losing bidder. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  It was 50% cheaper on the price, which was worth 50% of the award criteria, and in the qualitative submission it told Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann that it would deliver its own internal software, which was not ready but it would have it. We agreed to sign the contract based on that promise, alongside its track record with other countries on what it delivered before, but our service that we need was dependent on new software that it did not have at that time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  That is really good question but just to say that when Indra submitted its bid, going back to the promise, because that is what a contract is it is a promise to do versus a promise to pay, it offered us Da Vinci 2.0 in its bid submission. The way it worked----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  Indra did not have it to offer. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Let us say that Indra did have Da Vinci 2.0. I just want to say that when it put in its compliance matrix, it was obviously populating and self-declaring and that looks like it was marking its own homework but we reviewed that compliance matrix. It had to be substantiated. You could not just say, \"Yes, we comply\". You had to show evidence of how your solution could meet those particular requirements. We had that review done also by Ricardo, which had the subject matter expertise out there on other projects. It authenticated that the bid submission was a bona fide bid submission from Indra for Da Vinci 2.0. The problem was post-contract when Indra moved away from Da Vinci 2.0 because it was moving to 3.0. That is where----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  In simple terms, is that not a breach of contract? Indra changed the landscape. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  It is difficult. We recognised the concern as a business but when we went through it, we were not able to identify a clear breach such that we would be able to lawfully stop the contract.  Remember that if you try to do something you are not entitled to do, the company can bring a challenge. The Deputy's question is very fair. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  Mr. Hendrick mentioned the word \"slippage\". I am not going to be pedantic, but slippage of 20 months on a four-year contract is more than slippage. At one point, he was notified that it would be that long. There was then a resettlement to the tune of \u20ac1.4 million. Was Indra paid \u20ac1.4 million in addition, even though it had delayed the project by 20 months? I seek a \"Yes\" or \"No\" answer. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  We reset our target price by an additional \u20ac1.4 million. There were other issues it was arguing. It was making arguments against us at that time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  I know it was looking for \u20ac2.3 million in the resettlement.  In the time I have left, will Ms Shaw rule out, or just for the record state, what impact, if any, this has on the delivery of MetroLink? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  This will have no impact on the delivery of MetroLink. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  None.  With regard to the DART+ expansion and the projects that are really important, will Ms Considine state what impact the whole process will have on the delivery time of those services? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  We have been very focused on addressing that point. We have put obsolescence provisions in place, with the support of funding from the Department of Transport, to protect the train control system in the denser part of the network around the greater Dublin area and to future-proof for the DART+ expansion. What we want to do now is move to protect the rest of the network and support the other vital capital projects that are happening around the country. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  Can Ms Considine guarantee that there will be no delays to those programmes because of this? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  We can say that there will be no delay to DART+, and we are working to find solutions for the other parts of the country. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  If the interim measures in place were sufficient, we would not be in this mess in the first place. We are obviously in some form of limbo now where we need to find a long-term solution. Are there any health and safety risks associated with where this whole project stands now, as regards the current rail network but also the future expansion? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  To give assurance to the committee, the current technology, even though it is life-expired, is fail-safe technology. What that means is that something will stop running if there is an issue and we will have an outage like we had on 29 May that affects services. It is really unfortunate, but it will fail safe, so we will not be compromising safety. Safety is absolutely crucial. We will stop running services rather than compromise safety. We obviously do not want to stop running services either, so we need a solution here. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  I thank the witnesses. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Martin Daly  I thank the witnesses for attending this morning. I do not want to rehash what has already been covered, but it really is difficult for an ordinary person, and I see myself as an ordinary person, to understand the contract situation. Reading through the submissions, I note that there were flags going up on this contract as early as 2020. If a multibillion euro corporation that was supposed to specialise in this area was failing to meet very basic requirements of a contract so early in its term, why were red flags not going up all over the place? Is there any answer to that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  I will hand over to Mr. Hendrick because he will be able to go into more detail, but if the Deputy reviews the correspondence that we have put before the committee, he will see that red flags were being raised. Even in the first commercial resettlement, there were assurances given by Indra that it was addressing the issue. It never raised any issue with specifications, nor did it state it could not meet the criteria. It accepted and signed up to the rebasing of the contracts, and unfortunately it did not deliver. That led to Mr. Hendrick and his team flagging very serious concerns in early 2024. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Martin Daly  As early as 2024. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  Early, and there would have been----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Martin Daly  It is four years. I see that Indra used things like the pandemic to explain it. The pandemic has been blamed for everything. What I cannot understand is that, for four years, these flags were going up very early on in the term of the contract. Four years is a long time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  Maybe Mr. Hendrick can talk about the measures that were put in place. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  The concerns that were raised related to the DaVinci 2.0 platform that Indra was advising us about post contract. It had not advised at any time going into the contract that it was going to move from version 2.0 to version 3.0. It did cause a concern. Our team went through a due diligence process with the company to ask what this meant. It reassured Irish Rail by saying that this was the next generation of the product. It has a product development history. It states it has had versions 1.0 and 2.0 and is moving to 3.0 as a business. It stated that this would be the case for TMS applications that it was involved with in other jurisdictions, so it would not have version 2.0 in one place and version 3.0 in another. Rather, the aim was to roll it out consistently. The concerns we would have had were to make sure we would still get the offering promised with version 2.0 with version 3.0. They were the undertakings that Indra gave to the business, and we worked forward on that basis.  What happened from 2022 to 2024 was that we had programme concerns. \"Slippages\" is the word we have used but there were significant programme concerns. The movement from version 2.0 to 3.0 has turned into a whole new process for Indra as a business. It was developing the next version of the product \"outside the project\", as it is called. In other words, there was an activity it was engaging in as a business that the project it had committed to doing for us was dependent on. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Martin Daly  In 2020? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  From 2020, yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Martin Daly  Mr. Hendrick is now saying that, between 2022 and 2024, serious slippage happened, but we are talking now about two to four years. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Yes. It promised us that the product development process, which relates to what is called the generic product, as the Deputy might have seen in the note, would be finished. Indra guaranteed it would be finished in 2021, such that it would have no effect on the programme whatsoever. In the end, it took Indra until the end of 2023 to have the generic product process that it was engaging in as a corporate organisation outside the project completed. That was a driving factor and really delayed the project. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Martin Daly  It really feels like Indra gamed the contract. What is really interesting is that it was 50% less expensive than the next tenderer. Did that not raise concerns that it had lowballed the State on this contract? We have seen it in other big State infrastructure contracts, with lowballing and then coming back and back until the cost escalates or the contractor cannot meet the terms of the contract. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  As part of the procurement evaluation process, we would carefully examine the commercial offerings of any bid to assess them from the point of view----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Martin Daly  Fifty percent is a huge gap. If there is a gap of 10% or 15%, someone somewhere says the company should wait a minute. I do not want to ask who the other firms that tendered were. Mr. Hendrick probably cannot tell me that. Can he? Were they reputable corporations? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Martin Daly  International? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Martin Daly  Okay. Fifty percent is just incredible. If a builder came in and said he could build something for 50% less, you would be expecting wet bags of concrete to be stuck in the wall. Someone would be cutting costs somewhere. It is incredible. It is just a reflection on things.  Consider the third-party advice to support Indra. Who did Irish Rail bring in to provide that third-party hand-holding advice to a multibillion-euro corporation that was supposed to deliver a huge infrastructure project? I saw in the note that Irish Rail brought in some external contractor to help it through some of its issues. Was that another contractor? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  We had two organisations, called Ricardo Rail and Turas, which provided effectively temporary staff to help us manage the project, including technically. They were helping Irish Rail, I should say. They were working for----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Martin Daly  Helping Irish Rail. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  They were working for Irish Rail and helping Irish Rail. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Martin Daly  Was anyone brought in to help Indra or advise it? Did Indra subcontract any work? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  I am not sure, to be honest, exactly in what way Indra\u2019s staff were contracted. It had a lot of people working for it, advising and doing the work for Indra directly. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Martin Daly  Again, I do not want to rehash what has come before. The contract is with the NTA and Irish Rail delivers it. The advice is that there is going to be a review to decide on how to terminate this contract. Am I reading that correctly, or am I misinterpreting that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  The contract is between Irish Rail and Indra. Irish Rail will need to have conversations directly with Indra in terms of managing the next steps. The NTA will continue to work with Irish Rail to support any way forward. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Martin Daly  The ticketing system contract is going to Indra. Again, for the benefit of the ordinary public, how are we to understand that a corporation that has not delivered on a project is being brought in to deliver another development for the NTA, namely, the next-generation ticketing system?  How does the NTA explain that to the public? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  Again, there was a compliant procurement process where Indra was successful in that contract. As I mentioned earlier, there was a lot of pre-mortem, as it were, prior to developing the procurement strategy about all the things that needed to be included in the same way there was a review of all the different expertise globally, the different organisations that deliver against these projects. Indra has got that global presence in this particular field as well. It is very different technology to rail. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Martin Daly  Is Ms Shaw confident it will deliver on that contract? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  It is currently being delivered on time and on budget. All the milestones are being met. The teams are colocated and working successfully to deliver against those milestones. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Martin Daly  Does the NTA\u2019s external consultants who advised on the original contract, Ricardo, culpable here in any way? What happens if I get advice and it is deficient, and obviously its advice was deficient? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Well----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Martin Daly  Maybe \"deficient\" is too strong a word. Let us say it has given the NTA advice, as a specialist company, which has turned out to be erroneous. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  There will be the EY review which the NTA mentioned which will look at everything that has happened as a full look back. A lot of this happened before my time in the business. I am not here trying to defend anyone, to be clear; the facts are the facts and we will go through where all the real causes are. Based on the undertakings and representations that Indra made through the pre-call and the bid process, how Ricardo and the project team assessed it was not unreasonable based on the information they were given to review. That is just my opinion. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Martin Daly  Therefore it comes back to Indra not delivering and undervaluing what was required and a whole range of things. Low-balling, I would say.  Finally to the NTA, the State will spend a lot of money on MetroLink. Does the NTA think it is capable of delivering MetroLink? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  Obviously we are coming close to the next approval gate for MetroLink. There has been a lot of work to develop the project team and a lot of work to make sure we have the right design and systems in place as well. There have been thorough assessments around both the project execution and how that will be delivered. What is being delivered, all the costings, etc., are all in the process of being assured against that as well. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Martin Daly  I have run out of time here and I do not want to take anyone else\u2019s time. Ms Shaw could accept the public has, perhaps, had its confidence shaken in the NTA and Irish Rail in the management of this particular contract "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Martin Daly  That is all I can say. I cannot answer that. I thank the Cathaoirleach. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Before I let the next speaker in, the committee\u2019s function here is to establish how public funds are managed. Members may refer to third parties insofar as it relates to decisions, the decisions and oversight of Irish Rail and the NTA, but the committee cannot make findings as regards the contractors\u2019 liabilities.  Deputy Bennett is next. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  I welcome the witnesses and thank them for coming in.  I have heard numerous dates and timelines for the national train control centre project, NTCC. When did the witnesses first became concerned about the NTCC? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  If you take the overall NTCC project itself, despite Covid and everything, the building was delivered within budget. That is quite a futuristic building that will centralise the entire control system but will also future-proof for Dublin City Council, and the garda\u00ed are also in there. The building itself went to plan. In terms of the signalling, electrical and telecommunications elements of the project, a lot of that was delivered in conjunction with our own team, it went to plan and the hardware was installed. I know we are repeating ourselves, there were concerns about Indra and its performance from early on with the traffic management system, TMS. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  What was the first year? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  I would say late 2020 there were initial concerns. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  So that is 2020-2026 and it has only become public now at this stage really. In the last six months, would you say? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  If I could go back, we did the first commercial reset No. 1 in late 2022. I came into my role in September----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  Mr. Hendrick is saying 2022 then. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  We had initial----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  This is why I am confused because everyone keeps mentioning different years and we are only finding out here in 2026. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  There was a number of programme challenges at that point. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  Okay. I am not worried about any of that. All I want to know is the first year it was highlighted. We are only hearing about it in here in 2026, so I want to know what has happened in the meantime. When did the Department find out, Mr. Campbell? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell  It predates my time on the project as well. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  I am not asking that. I am asking what year did it come to the Department? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell  I think around 2022. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  In 2022. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell  There were concerns around the time----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  What happened in 2022? What response did the Department have to this problem at the time? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell  We had a deep dive on the project in November 2022. From the Department\u2019s perspective, we wanted to assure ourselves that the NTA and Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann were managing the project as we would expect and also the implications for the wider rail transport programme and mitigations in place. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  In 2022, how much had been spent at that time? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell  I would handover to Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  Okay. Does Mr. Hendrick know that figure? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Can I come back to the Deputy on that to make sure I give the accurate figure? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  Okay. Did you seek any assistance from the Department at that stage, saying \u201cWe\u2019re in trouble here\u201d. Were we \u20ac50 million in trouble at that stage? Sorry, I am not getting any answers. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Apologies. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  At that stage, in 2022, was Irish Rail \u20ac50 million in trouble? Is that how far it was? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  No. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  It was not. So why did the Department do anything at that stage? That is for Mr. Campbell. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell  The approving authority function was delegated to the NTA and that was in line with infrastructure guidelines. The Department would allocate the budget. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  Did it come to the Department at that stage to say it was in trouble? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell  I do not believe at that time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  Before the State spent \u20ac50 million. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell  At that time I do not think any of us would have known it would escalate----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  Nobody knew. I just find it incredible that one organisation, one State body after another, comes in here and nobody knows what is going on in the Department. Nobody seems to know. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell  We----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  Do we not get reports back from every State body? The Government gives money to State bodies. I do not understand. There is no oversight in the Department where it is watching timeframes and timelines, where the money is being spent and how it is being spent. This is taxpayers\u2019 money. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell  I accept that. We all deeply regret where we have got to but throughout that period NTA management of that programme was in line with what we would have expected. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  In line with what the Department expected but it was having problems in 2022 and there was nothing done about it. It is now 2026 and now the issues are just coming to us at the Committee of Public Accounts. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell  Throughout that period, MPGOG reported on a quarterly basis to the Minister and to the management board. The issues were being escalated. We were aware of them and we were very concerned. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  The Department was very concerned. It was not that concerned if it did not do anything for four years. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell  From an overall----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  From 2022 to 2026. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell  From an overall rail portfolio perspective, we were assured that there were mitigations in place for, say, the Galway Ceannt Station, for Waterford North Quays project and for the Foynes line, that the contagion of the wider programme was being managed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  Okay. I am just trying to think for the future, how do we avoid something like this ever happening again where something is highlighted to the Department in 2022 and nothing is done until 2026 and now the State is \u20ac50 million worse off? That is money that could have been spent on the MetroLink or other things but it has not been because the State has lost that money.  Am I correct that we are also paying Indra to run the next-generation ticketing system? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  That is correct. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  The NTA must have great confidence in it that it actually managed to procure another contract from the State. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  As I already mentioned, that project is being run well. It is currently on target, on budget----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  On target, on budget. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  -----with all milestones being met. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  On target and on budget. Contactless payment was introduced to Ireland in 2011. That is the same year as the Leap cards. Why were Leap cards introduced but we were not using contactless payment. In New York, London and everywhere else in the world, they are using contactless payment. What is so great about this new-generation ticketing system? How much are we paying Indra for that system? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  The next-generation ticketing will also incorporate the current Leap system to enable that to continue as we transition to fully contactless payment.  Contactless payment will, with an account-based system, allow people to pay for their transport after the fact, and after the system has worked out how transport has been used and get the best price whether people use their phone, bank card or watch. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  What is so good about this new ticketing system that could not have been used back in 2011 when other countries introduced contactless payment there and then? Why do we still not have a contactless payment system in Ireland 15 years later? The witnesses say it is going to be such a magnificent system. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hugh Creegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Hugh Creegan  Yes, the Deputy is right that the technology was introduced in 2011. It started a good many years before that. At that time, contactless payment by bank cards was a relatively new development. The key thing in London at that stage was the Oyster card. At the point that project started, it was the right decision made. It was introduced in 2011 and is now----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  Why are we moving at a snail's pace? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hugh Creegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Hugh Creegan  The project we are on now is to produce the next generation of ticketing. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  It is 2026. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hugh Creegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Hugh Creegan  It is. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  This technology was introduced in London in 2011. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hugh Creegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Hugh Creegan  The Leap card has worked. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  Fifteen years. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hugh Creegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Hugh Creegan  Yes, and the Leap card has worked very successfully over that intervening period with very many millions of journeys taken, but we have now reached the point of upgrading to the new system. That is what is under way with the current project. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  Okay. I want to ask about the rail network. I have brought to the attention of a few committees the fact that there is no rail network in County Monaghan, which is where I live. Again, it is unbelievable that is the situation in this day and age. Back in the 1950s there was a railway running through Monaghan. I would like to have an update on that. What has happened? Have there been any further reviews? It has come to my attention that there will be a rail service between Portadown and Clones at some stage. Maybe we could have an update on that if there is something coming down the tracks. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell  I can come in on that one. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell  The All-Island Strategic Rail Review was published in July 2024 in conjunction with the Department for Infrastructure in Northern Ireland. It was the first ever all-island rail plan. In that, there is, as the Deputy mentioned, a line proposed from Mullingar to Portadown. That is not being funded in the next five years. Under the national development plan, we have set aside \u20ac100 million in the next five years for a range of early interventions, which are foundational investments in the network that increase resilience and capacity in the network. In the 2030s, we will deliver a number of major projects and we are doing the preparatory work for that now. We developed a plan for those major projects in the 2030s with the support of the European Investment Bank and published a plan for that in December of last year. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  I am delighted to see that you are coming up with plan for a united Ireland and we are in preparation for that. That is good news.  We have a bus station in Monaghan town that really needs to be developed and upgraded. Planning permission was in place for that but the building never actually happened. That bus station is closed to the public at night-time, even though buses run through Monaghan at night-time. Can anybody give me an update on that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hugh Creegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Hugh Creegan  The bus stations around the country are owned by Bus \u00c9ireann-CI\u00c9, and because they are not all running PSO services only and a lot of the stations run a commercial service, the Expressway service, we are limited in what we can do to fund upgrades. I do not know where an upgrade is for the Monaghan station. I do know that, because of state-aid issues, we are limited in what we are able to do. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  Does Mr. Creegan not find it concerning that so much money from the transport authority seems to go to Dublin? Why are we not concerned? Why do the witnesses not know about Monaghan? Is it not relevant that we in Monaghan do not have a rail network and our transport system is very behind the times in that we do not even have a bus going on the hour every hour to Dublin? There is a lot of work to be done there, and for rural counties. Not enough is being done, and I want to highlight that here today. The witnesses should make sure it is put high on the Department's agenda. Rural Ireland has been left behind again in terms of both rail and bus services. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell  To be fair to the National Transport Authority, most of the statutory limit is the greater Dublin area. Some of it is national. We currently have the Dublin Transport Authority (Amendment) Bill going through the Oireachtas. I think that had Committee Stage at the end of June. That will be enacted in the autumn and that will put the infrastructural delivery aspect of NTA's remit on a national basis, so that will give it more levers across the country. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  Just one more thing----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Very briefly, Deputy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  Did the witnesses receive media training before attending here? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell  No. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  Nobody did. Thank you. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Thanks for that. We will take a short break. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Sitting suspended at 12.35 p.m. and resumed at 12.54 p.m. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  I thank the witnesses for coming in. I want to get a bit granular regarding the \u20ac50 million write-off and the timeline involved. When was the first \u20ac4 million to \u20ac5 million of the \u20ac50 million spent? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  Obviously, there was spending from the outset with this project, even prior to the contract being awarded. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  I want to get into the first steps of the process. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  We set out the financial details in the appendix. I will dig them out. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  I just want to try and go through that. I think it is important to do so. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  If we look at appendix 1 of the financial briefing, which is attached to our document, we see that the initial spend happened in 2015. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  Could Ms Considine read it out for those who do not have copies of the report? I just want to go through it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  I apologise. Perhaps Mr. Hendrick could read it for me. The print is a bit small. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  Not everyone will have access to the appendix. Could Ms Considine outline when the first \u20ac5 million was spent. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  I think it was 2015. I will just bring it up on screen because it will be easier to read. I apologise to the Deputy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  I am just conscious of the time. Can we try to get the information? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Perhaps Deputy Neville could move on to his next question. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  No, I want to go through it on a granularly. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  That is no problem. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  Do we not know when the money was spent? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  We do. I am sorry. I am just trying to open the appendix. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  I am asking high-level questions here. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Could I answer in terms of the \u20ac50 million write-down against the----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  No, could Mr. Hendrick just do it in the way I am asking, please? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  I am not sure that we have the information. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  Do the witnesses not know when they spent the money? What I want to find out is when the money was spent. Some \u20ac2.5 million was spent, but we are still not sure when it was spent never to mind who spent it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  At a high level, in relation to the spend, the impairment review looked at the carrying value of the asset----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  No, I genuinely do not want to do that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  Yes, okay. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  I only have 15 minutes. Do we just not have a clue when it was spent? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  It was spent from 2015 onwards. Anything relating to the software element of the TMS project was prior to----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  But we do not know when elements of the \u20ac50 million were spent or when they were written off. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  We do. We just do not have it to hand. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  How was it assessed? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  The \u20ac50 million write-down is predominantly based on us not having a developed product. When the board made the decision to do the impairment review----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  I do not want to talk about the board and the impairment review. I am asking what checks and balances there were along the way when money was spent in order to ensure that we were getting value for money. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  The decision on the write-down is what drives whether we assess whether there is an impairment or not. Throughout the project----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  I am an accountant, so I know how the impairment process works. I am talking about the process along the way. Are the witnesses telling me that they only looked at it at the very end to see if it was working? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Each year, we assessed it on the basis of the carrying value. Every expenditure we have on a capital project goes into our fixed assets, so we capitalise the cost. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  Yes, the costs are capitalised. That is why this should be very easy. I know how that works. It should be very easy to say that amounts of \u20ac5 million here, \u20ac10 million there and \u20ac15 million there were capitalised. The asset will grow in value to a certain point, and then, obviously, the witnesses examined it at the very end and saw that it was worth nothing. Why did that happen? I want to know the steps as to how it happened and how it built up to \u20ac50 million. If we are saying that we do not know----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  We do. I have it open in front of me. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  This is \u20ac50 million. This is really important. The information should be at the witnesses' fingertips. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  In 2013, there was a spend of just under \u20ac400,000. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  I know. That is why my first question was about the first level of significant funding. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  Yes. The first level of funding was in 2013. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  When did it rise to \u20ac10 million, \u20ac15 million and \u20ac20 million? Why did someone not cry stop at \u20ac25 million? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  The first significant spend was in 2019. That would primarily have been on ICT and ICT enablement works. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  How much was that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  That was \u20ac2.5 million out of a total \u20ac3.2 million. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  So \u20ac2.5 million was spent in 2019. What is the total value there? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  The total value at that point----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  How much of the \u20ac50 million was capitalised by 2019? This is very simple. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  In 2019, there was a total figure of \u20ac3.2 million capitalised. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  Of the \u20ac50 million. In 2020, how much was capitalised? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  It was \u20ac6.1 million. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  So now we are up to \u20ac9 million. What was it in 2021? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  It was \u20ac7.3 million. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  So now we are up at \u20ac16 million. Keep going. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  Then we had a spend of \u20ac14 million in 2022 and a spend of \u20ac21.7 million in 2013. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  So by 2023 there was \u20ac20 million spent. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  How much was spent in 2024? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  In 2024, in total it was about \u20ac14 million. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  What about 2025? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  In 2025, it was \u20ac15 million. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  What about 2026? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  In 2026, to date it is about \u20ac3 million spent. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  So, we spent another \u20ac3 million on the project. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  To date, yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  Is that of the \u20ac50 million? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  No, that is not included in the \u20ac50 million. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  It is not related. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  No. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  When did the spending stop on the \u20ac50 million? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  The \u20ac50 million is the impairment figure at the end of 2025. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  Was no money spent on the project in 2026? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  There was spend on servicing the contract, which was about \u20ac3 million, that has not been capitalised. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  There a further \u20ac3 million on that recurring----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  Yes, recurring across the spend. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  There is a \u20ac3 million cost in 2026 was for a project that was written off in 2025. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  The State has written off an asset but it is still incurring a \u20ac3 million cost every year on the same. Is that what Ms Considine is saying? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  We are incurring ongoing costs so long as we are still in contract with Indra. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  How long will this contract go on with Indra for a project we do not have? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  As I referred to in my opening statement, the board took a decision on 22 June based on the principles testing report that came to us on 16 June. We sought the approval of the NTA. They have written back to us confirming their consent to implement the board decision. We are in the legal process at the moment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  Going back to the audits at the end of 2024, when it was not written down, was there any impairment review done of the asset? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  At the time it was carried at its carrying value----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  I get that but was there an impairment review? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Can I finish? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  Okay. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  The reason it was carried was because the prospects of it generating an economic asset was greater than 50% in accordance with the FRS 102 accounting standard. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  In fairness, how----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  If I can finish. What changed in early 2026 is that as we were developing the project with Indra, we got to the point where we could no longer convincingly demonstrate to the board of directors of Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann that there was a greater than 50% probability of this project delivering a useful economic asset. Once that fell below this----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  I get that but----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  -----it triggered the impairment. What we then had to do was the impairment review based on financial statements for the end of 2025. The cumulative expenditure on the project since 2013 is \u20ac150 million, including VAT, because we have to carry VAT an a project with non-recoverable VAT. When we assess that \u20ac150 million, we then have to assess the writedown percentages. The way we did that was to look at the Indra contract and look at the software to make a decision on whether we could we carry and reuse any of that software if Indra were not the future supplier to finish this project. We made the decision that we could not and we had to write off 100% of the software cost with Indra. We also looked at hardware that Indra had installed and we were able to reuse a lot of that hardware so we carried some of the value through the hardware. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  How much is the value of the hardware? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  The hardware is about \u20ac4 million and we were able to carry about 65% of that. If we look at the total, it is about \u20ac30 million and we were only able to carry about \u20ac2.5 million in total. We wrote off the majority of the money on the software, which was about \u20ac27 million or \u20ac28 million. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  It was \u20ac28.2 million. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  The rest of the money then is hardware. We have been able to retain some value from the Indra contract purely because of the hardware we could reuse with a different supplier if----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  All along, the decision was made to carry out. Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann did the impairment review but obviously it did its own internal test on the 50%. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  I totally get that but was that same test done the previous year and were the witnesses happy to go along with it? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  We did not have anything to trigger a review so we were happy to carry the value in the financial statements. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  So people were----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  We believed we were going to get an economic asset out of the project because we believed Indra at the end of 2024. We did a settlement agreement----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  What was the trigger whereby Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann knew it would not get it? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  It was as we came through 2025 and we started to look at the testing, which was the second round of testing on CPU-1 and the results that were coming through. When we got the initial results, after we were given the software on 20 April, the board was trying to close the accounts. On 6 May we had a board meeting. I had to present to that board meeting and advise them of the outcome of the testing process, which was starting to fail. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  I know but----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  If I could just finish up. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  I am under----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  On the basis of that failure it triggered the impairment review. We then had to go away and assess the quantum of what that writedown should be based on the situation we were in. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  Was any more spent after that? Mr. Hendrick went to the board, which is a process, which I totally get. The board, however, does not run the company. As Mr. Hendrick will be aware, we all know the role of a board and what it does, but ultimately it is the CEO and CFO who actually know, or should know, what is happening on the ground. I want to take the board out of it. At what point was the previous CEO, made aware by Mr. Hendrick and the team that Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann had an impaired asset? When was the first time the question was raised? Was any more money spent on it after that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  We did not have an impaired asset at----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  Potentially. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  -----at the end of the accounts up to the end of 2024. From the end of 2025 when we were closing those accounts in early 2026----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  No. I am saying there was a question mark. There was not just a lightbulb moment when someone said, \"We had better write off \u20ac50 million\". Surely there was a concern somewhere. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  When we initially looked at approving the accounts at the end of March, there obviously was a real deep concern by the board and they questioned----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  Was that this year? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  Yes, this year. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  When was it questioned first? That is what I am trying to get at. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  In reviewing the financial statements for 2025, they would have considered the carrying value of the asset. The decision was deferred until we could see whether the principles testing would succeed when on CPU-1, which was delivered on the 20 April. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  Was that a year later? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  No, it was the same year, March this year. In April, the CPU-1 was delivered and on 6 May, there was concrete evidence at that stage that the testing was failing and the board made the decision to impair the asset. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  There was no concern up until there was a concern, and then Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann wrote it off within weeks. Is that right? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  I think there would have been flags and concerns all the way through, as we outlined in all our correspondence. We have been reporting to the committees, to our board and to the NTA. As we discussed earlier, there were two commercial resettlements, including a very significant one at the end of 2024. The teams were working through 2025 to deliver. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  I am finished my time. I think it is a big thing for the witnesses to say that all the way along there were concerns but at no point was it in the impairment review, potentially, and Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann just kept capitalising all the way through. Yet, Ms Considine is saying she had concerns. If there are concerns about the value of an asset, no accountant should continue to capitalise while there are concerns there. Ultimately, she has just said that this was the case. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  There were concerns with the delivery of the project. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  That should never have happened. The clock keeps ticking and money keeps going out the door. Now the State has a bigger bill to deal with than it had. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  Deputy Neville was killed by his own analogy there. Let me try to sum up what we have listened to so far. Essentially, Irish Rail is saying that they thought they were buying a generic project and it has ended up being involved in a software development project. It was buying something it thought was reasonably off the shelf and in the end, it has been involved in a sort of speculative project where they Indra developed the software and at the end of it all, there is nothing to show for it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  I cannot disagree with how the Deputy has summarised it. As we said, we believed we were buying 2.0 and it was then evolving to 3.0, and they are still in development. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  Far from being a masterpiece, the da Vinci has ended up basically being a bag of paint with no paint. That is fine. That is Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann's case, but then the question is: how did it take so long to get to this? How did the Committee of Public Accounts and the Comptroller and Auditor General not know before that?  There was a lot of emphasis on Lithuania. Am I correct that while Indra was involved in many deployments, they were mostly single high-speed rail projects and simpler projects? Lithuania was significant because it was their first national scheme. Is that correct? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  I think that is fair to say. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  This is why that was significant. Was it known that that project was delayed when the contract was awarded? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Yes. They had completed the project a year later than the original contract . They had completed the project, albeit a year later. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  Did that delay form part of the tendering process? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  It was assessed as part of the pre-qualification process. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  Within a number of months by quarter three in 2020, Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann was already raising red flags and had concerns about the programme delays. Is that correct? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Yes. We had concerns because of the fact they were moving to this version 3.0 of the product. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  At that point, was any contact made with the unsuccessful bidder? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  No, not that I am aware of. I was not here at the time but I do not believe there was. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  Was the NTA aware of any contact being made with the unsuccessful bidder after the contract was made? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hugh Creegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Hugh Creegan  No. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  Is correct that at no time were any proposals put to the unsuccessful bidder to try to partner with the successful bidder to deliver the project? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  No. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  Mr. Creegan? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hugh Creegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Hugh Creegan  I am not aware of any, no. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  Okay. So, at that point, while Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann had concerns, it had confidence that Indra would be able to deliver the project. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Based on the reassurance and the commitments given to us by Indra. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  Let me take Mr. Hendrick through each phase. The baseline was reset on four occasions. Deputy Neville has gone through a useful chronology, as each year Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann was getting an amount of \u20ac10 million and \u20ac15 million. Will Mr. Hendrick talk us through the process of how that gets approved each year? What is the mechanism or what are the points where things are opened that Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann gets to review work done and approves spending to continue? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Is this in relation to the contract or in relation to the financial statements? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  The contract. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  If I could just talk about 2022----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  Who signs off on the work and who agrees the next plan of work? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  We do. Irish Rail does, as the client team. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  Talk me through those timelines. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  If I could speak about commercial reset No. 1, I came into my role in September 2022. The project was over two years old at that stage. I encountered the project and the project team working with Indra with serious concerns. They were talking about the project sliding up to two years off programme with various debates going on around what the cause and issues were. One of the actions that I took with the team was to say that we needed to arrest this, it was at large, and we needed to put it under control. So, we went into a dialogue with Indra for three months, culminating in reset No. 1, which added five months to the completion programme - June 2024 to November 2024. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  And costs. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  And there was an update to the start price. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  Am I correct in saying that that was described as a charge on the contractor's account? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  No. It is the target price. We changed the target price by 8% with that. We had a five-month extension time, so we were still getting the project delivered by the end of 2024.  The benefits of doing that was it took a project that was at large where people were not operating to the original programme. They could not give clarity when milestones would be achieved. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  On the review of baseline 1, was the NTA informed of that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Just to clarify, when we got to the point where we had something that we thought could be agreed between Indra and Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann, we brought that to the NTA. Before we executed it, be brought it to the NTA for its approval and we did not execute it until the NTA granted us the approval in early 2024. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  On that basis, was Ms Shaw still hopeful at that point that the project could be delivered? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hugh Creegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Hugh Creegan  Yes. We received the various proposals from Irish Rail and each time felt it was the right step to take. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  There was baseline 1, baseline 2, baseline 3, baseline 4. By the time Irish Rail got to baseline 4, had Mr. Hendrick very low confidence in this project? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  May I just talk about the intermediate baselines? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  In 2023, Indra, which it had a right to do under the contract, reset the programme. It moved it out twice. It moved the completion date from November 2024 to March 2025 and then, at the end of 2023, it moved it again, this time to August 2025, but that meant it was resetting to its account. In other words, we were not adjusting the target price or resetting the contract, and Indra was just advising us that it was going to be later than what we had agreed in commercial reset No. 1. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  But----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  That was causing us concern because of slippage on it. We were obviously looking for Indra to recover and find ways to deal with it, but when we came into summer 2024 - this was before we got to commercial reset No. 2 - the serious concerns we had were that the software we had been given to test was way short of the expectation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  This is where I want to get to. By July 2024, had Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann already considered replacing Indra? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Yes, as a potential solution. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  Am I correct in saying that Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann communicated that to the NTA? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Yes, verbally in a discussion with the NTA. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  At that time, was the NTA in contract or in tendering process in regard to the ticket management system? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hugh Creegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Hugh Creegan  I think we would have been at the tendering stage. I cannot swear to that. Certainly, we were at the tendering stage. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  I suppose what I am asking is whether there is an interplay here. When Irish Rail raised the concerns, was the NTA fearful of ending the relationship with Indra on the train management system because the NTA was about to embark on a relationship for the ticket management system? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hugh Creegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Hugh Creegan  Absolutely not. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  Was that not a consideration at all? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hugh Creegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Hugh Creegan  It was not. It never was a consideration. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  Okay. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hugh Creegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Hugh Creegan  They were two separate projects and had to be managed appropriately in each case. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  Does Ms Considine feel that, when she made the request to the NTA or when Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann started to consider replacing Indra, Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann had the support of the NTA on that or does she feel that the NTA was overly cautious? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  We made decisions at our board on 22 June and we took those forward to the NTA for approval. Our understanding is we required the approval of the NTA to implement those decisions. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  If the decision had been made in 2024 to end the contract with Indra at that point, would we have saved money as a result? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  It is very evident from the schedules here that we would have saved money if the contract had been terminated. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  Can Ms Considine quantify that for the committee? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  I cannot comment. I was not here in 2024 but, obviously, if the contract was terminated at that stage----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  Can Mr. Hendrick quantify what might have been saved? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  It is hypothetical. Going back to Deputy Neville's comment on the \u20ac50 million writedown, a lot of the writedown is happening from 2021 onwards. That is where the majority of the writedown is. In summer 2024, our expenditure was probably \u20ac25 million less than the \u20ac150 million we were at at the end of December. It is a hypothetical. If you make a change at that time, you end up with a different synopsis. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  Of course. Certainly, a sum in the multiple millions of euro could have been saved. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Potentially. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  I will go back to the support contracts. The idea that support contracts would be of equal value to the contract itself is a mind-blowing concept. Of the \u20ac30 million, would Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann be able to provide us with a list of the support contracts and the value of those contracts? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Yes, we can. I suppose the principal ones were Ricardo Rail and Turas. They were in the order of \u20ac28 million, including VAT. What I should say----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  Then what is remaining would be----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Smaller ancillaries. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  Were there any other contracts that would be in the range of \u20ac1 million or \u20ac2 million? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  There might be one or two, yes. I would have to come back to the committee with the specifics. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  What role would they have held? What work would they have done? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  We brought in some extra project support staff to support us, and particularly the project director that we brought in in October 2025 to help us because of the level of challenge and difficulty. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  What was the value of the contract for the project director? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  He is a freelance organisation so he has got a couple of staff with him. There is a budget there north of \u20ac2 million but it is not expended. It is probably a few hundred grands' worth of expenditure. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  In 2025, a project director was appointed on a contract basis with a value of more than \u20ac2 million. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Based on a projected forecast of supporting the project for the coming years because we are not going to finish this project any time in the next two to three years on the basis of the way we are going, plus some additional support staff. It is a provisional budget. It is not expended. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  In a project that costs \u20ac150 million and may reach \u20ac250 million, I imagine the idea that an additional \u20ac2 million was set aside only a number of months ago while Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann was still dealing with the other issues would be concerning to members of the committee. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  I should say he is replacing other staff. There are other staff who have been dialled out of the project, from Ricardo Rail and from Turas. We have had staff changes on our side where people have left to take up other roles in other organisations, and one or two in other roles within the business. Given the length of the project, you are always going to have a certain level of churn. Staff are moving around in the capital projects function. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  The \u20ac50 million can be an impaired asset. It can be written off but, in reality, it is not written off because it is not available for other services. I just think of the Luas figures in my own area. There is a price tag of \u20ac600 million on that. You are talking about \u20ac50 million, and perhaps more if the impairment grows. As for the scale of this, it is one of the biggest impairments of an asset that this company has ever seen. I am sure there are bigger, but it is very rare to see this scale of impairment. Given that we have come to the last day of term in the D\u00e1il, there is a lot more that this committee needs to do on this issue. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  I thank the witnesses for being here. At the outset, I want to start in the here and now as opposed to looking back on the project. In its opening statement, Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann makes reference to the decisions taken at the board meeting in June. Ms Considine mentioned that she may not be able to provide full details, but what can she tell us about those decisions taken at the recent board meeting? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  I thank Deputy McGrath. We have real focus now and it is about moving forward. I have said that there is huge regret that we find ourselves in this position as a collective and it is about now finding a way forward to deliver a train control system that future-proofs the network and minimises further exposure to the Exchequer.  We moved to act as early as we could to bring proposals to the board to get their support as a board - the board is very focused on this as well and very conscious of its obligation for taxpayers' money - and bring those decisions to the NTA for its consideration. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  Can Ms Considine give the committee some details of those decisions? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  I cannot go into them but they are around the contract. The NTA has considered our decisions and agreed to the decisions taken. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  However, at this time, Irish Rail is still in contract with Indra. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  Yes, we are still in contract and working through that but we are talking about a matter of weeks to resolve it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  What are our financial obligations to Indra at this point? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  I will ask Mr. Hendrick to come in on that. We believe that under----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  It was touched on in a response to Deputy Neville earlier. There was a figure of \u20ac3 million so far in 2026. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  There is \u20ac3 million spent on the contract so far in 2026. That was not paid to Indra. They are third-party costs and our costs. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  That is not a payment to Indra. That is third-party costs. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Mostly, yes. We stopped paying Indra in February this year because of the way the contract works. It has hit the ceiling and no more payments have been due since then. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  We are not on the hook to Indra. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  We are not paying it at the moment under the contract because we have no obligation to pay it. It is making claims under the contract, but, so far, we have not established any entitlement to those claims. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  Did the NTA agree to the decisions made at the board meeting in June? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  However, we do not know the nature of those decisions and Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann is not in a position to tell us about them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  We are not. The Deputy will appreciate that the last thing we want to do is compromise----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  The decisions are about the contract with Indra. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  Will Ms Considine give a high level breakdown of the headline figure for the writedown value of \u20ac50 million? She mentioned the \u20ac28.2 million on software. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  Yes, I can. Some \u20ac28.2 million relates to Indra, \u20ac8.5 million of the third-party costs relate to Turas and \u20ac6.76 million relate to Ricardo, and the other \u20ac2 million is for SET and ICT enabling works. However, the majority of it is the first three items, the TMS with Indra and the \u20ac8.5 million and \u20ac6.76 million for the two specialist service providers. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  I will go back to the money spent so far this year. Is there further expenditure to come on obligations that have to be met, which will be effectively wasted? Are there still obligations to pay money to third parties or others? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  There will be work even supporting the review the NTA is carrying out and there will be work in implementing the decisions we have taken. However, we are talking about minimising it and working at the earliest to deal----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  Can Ms Considine give us a value? We have the value of the report. I think \u20ac230,000 roughly was mentioned. What additional funds are still to be spent to close this out as a project to meet obligations that will not result in anything other than totting up more on the \u20ac50 million writedown? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  I believe - correct me if I am wrong - that we have moved to significantly reduce the resources involved in this and minimise the costs. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  I understand that, but will Ms Considine give us some sense of it? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  There is still probably a couple of hundred thousand of euro per month. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  A couple of hundred thousand of euro per month. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  I will go back to the question. We still need to complete the project with whatever solution we land on and that will take a number of years. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  I understand the project has to be completed. That is not wasted money, in the sense that it has to happen. What is the element that will close out the wasted phase of this? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  I would say it is a few hundred grand per month, maximum for the next couple of months. Then, when we move to the final solution to deliver the project----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  The \u20ac50 million is, therefore, going to grow. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Yes, a bit, but it will stop, based on the decisions----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  It could grow to \u20ac50.5 million. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  The \u20ac50 million was an impairment figure written off on the balance sheet. There are ongoing current costs. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  My point is Irish Rail has not closed out this yet. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  We have not. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  Therefore, there will be additional expenditure to close out the wasted phase of this. Irish Rail accepts that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  It is not in a position to say how much it will be, but it will be several hundred thousand euro.  The need for the TMS was identified and the contract was signed in 2020 to be delivered in 2024. It is not there. What is the current state of the TMS? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  For the current TMS, we are using old technology. It is more than 20 years old and it will no longer be supported. That was the reason for moving to start this project in the first place but, in the interim period, once we knew the principles testing was not succeeding on the current version we had from Indra, we moved to look at a plan B around obsolescence to de-risk the greater Dublin area initially. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  Is the current system functional and safe? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  The current system is safe. As I explained earlier, it is fail-safe. We will stop operations, but we will not compromise safety. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  What is Irish Rail stopping? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  If there were a breakdown in the technology in the morning, it would have an impact on operations. We had a failure at the end of May. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  There are operational implications. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  Yes, there are operational implications, but not safety implications. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  Service delivery will be impacted by a failure. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  If we had not moved to de-risk the obsolescence risk, which we have now moved to do in the greater Dublin area. We need to look at a solution for the whole country. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  Where is Irish Rail in terms of replacing that system? It is trying to close out the Indra project. It needs a traffic management system. Where is it on delivering one? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  All the decisions are interrelated so once we work through the next few weeks, we will engage with the NTA and the Department as our funders to secure funding for the way forward. We have a proposal to move forward. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  Does Irish Rail have an estimated cost for what it will take to get to a traffic management system that is modern and up-to-date? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  We do, but for commercial reasons - we are in discussions - I cannot disclose that figure here. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  Can I have a ballpark figure? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  Unfortunately, I cannot say, because I do not want to compromise----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  Will it be tens of millions of euro? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  It will be a significant figure but I cannot disclose it because we want to preserve commercial integrity. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  Will it be in the order of the \u20ac50 million writedown? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  I am not in a position to say, unfortunately. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  It will be a significant sum.  Does Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann have a timeline for when it hopes to get an updated traffic management system? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  We do. We are hopeful the obsolescence provisions can be addressed in 2027-28 and then we will move to complete the traffic management system by the end of the decade. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  We were due to have it by the end of 2024 but it will be 2030 at the earliest, from what Ms Considine said.  I will turn to the implications for budgets. With respect, Ms Considine kind of skirted around the implication for other projects earlier. This will have significant implications for other projects overseen by the NTA and Irish Rail. There is a \u20ac50 million writedown and to replace the TMS will cost an unknown amount but it will be a sizeable figure, as Ms Considine said. The money has to come from somewhere. Let us be honest about that. What will it have an impact on? Will the NTA address that point as the approving authority? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  We will have to look at it across the whole portfolio across the rail network to understand what is safety critical, what capacity is and so on and then work out what we will need to change in delivery timescales----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  It is going to have implications for projects. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  The replacement of the traffic management system, as Ms Considine said, is a requirement so we have to make sure we can deliver it within the timeframe that has been set out. Then we will take that into consideration. Once we understand what that delivery is and its costs, we will need to do a review of the rest of the portfolio to be able to understand the impact. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  Ms Shaw mentioned the review that is costing almost \u20ac250,000. What is its aim? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  Is the Deputy talking about the EY review that has been commissioned by the NTA? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  It is to look back at the governance, decision-making and controls of the project from pre-procurement to where we find ourselves today. It will give us information about how the project was managed, how the governance was organised----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  Respectfully, is there not enough ability within Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann and the NTA to sit down and figure out what went wrong here without bringing in a third party at a cost of \u20ac250,000, adding to the overall waste of public money? Is there not enough expertise within the organisations to pinpoint where things went wrong? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  As I mentioned in reply to a question earlier, it is always valuable to have an independent view, particularly so the organisations are not accused of not putting all the information into it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  Are the terms of reference for the review such that there will ultimately be some accountability for what went wrong? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  There will be a series of findings and recommendations and both organisations will deliver against those recommendations, working with our colleagues in the Department of Transport. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  In this whole fiasco, it seems there is Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann, the NTA and the Department of Transport and everyone is responsible, but no one is responsible. Where does the accountability fall for this? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  There is accountability at different stages of the project. There is accountability in Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann for the delivery. There is accountability in the NTA for the approvals and oversight of the project and accountability in the Department for the overall programme. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  There is effectively no accountability. All parties here have said that it predates their time in office, so ultimately there will be no accountability for this. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  There are certainly people who will take responsibility and accountability for this project, particularly in moving this project forward. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  Finally, regarding the NTA, I have to say I have serious concerns about the organisation as a whole. We have constant correspondence between this committee and the NTA. We just have to look to the electric buses and the whole debacle over their storage, and the Busconnects project in Cork with \u20ac75 million spent on that alone and effectively very little to show for it. We have ongoing issues relating to bus reliability that have been highlighted for years now, and we seem to be making no progress with them.  The NTA is currently pumping out replies to anyone who asks about the delivery of new services that it does not have funding for it, and is pointing the finger to the Department of Transport, yet we are here today discussing a monumental waste of public money. There are serious governance and management issues with the NTA that have to be addressed.  Would the witnesses like to comment on that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  I take the points the Deputy has raised quite seriously. However, there has been an element of delivery across the projects to move them forward within the project life cycle. We have continued to work through decisions around the capital programme and with the Department of Transport in planning for new services as part of Busconnects. There is always expenditure before you do the infrastructure delivery, etc., to make sure we are delivering the right thing, but those projects are moving forward and will deliver benefits for this country in terms of sustainable public transport access. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  Thank you. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell  Briefly, on the PSO point, for the PSO budget this year we got a 43% uplift from the Department of public expenditure, which puts us at a much better baseline in 2027. In the NTA's defence, part of the budget setting was that there would not be new services this year and it would be a year of consolidation. The Minister, Deputy O'Brien, has been clear on that as well.  In the past, we have rolled out new services, particularly with driver availability and the availability of electric buses, which the Deputy mentioned, but this year is about catching up. As part of the budget negotiations in October for 2027, we will be advocating for additional funding for additional services next year, but this year has been to try to consolidate the services. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  I thank all the witnesses for being here today. Am I right in saying the original project budget for the national train control centre was \u20ac148 million? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  In the NTA 2024 accounts, it was estimated the project cost had increased to \u20ac189 million, which constituted a 28% cost overrun. Is that correct? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  Yes, that is correct. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  In the document the witnesses have supplied for us today, it states, \"indicating an optimistic best case of forecast outturn cost.\" They are now saying it is going to cost \u20ac250 million, which would represent a 70% increase on the original budget. What does the NTA attribute that cost increase to? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hugh Creegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Hugh Creegan  That comment in the briefing note is a briefing given to the Irish Rail board. That figure of \u20ac250 million is not settled yet. As it was mentioned earlier, we still have to work through what the next stage of the project is. We will then have a firm figure, but we do not have that yet. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  What is the provenance of that \u20ac250 million figure? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  As I said to Deputy McGrath earlier, we are considering all these and, in a matter of weeks, we hope to have more certainty. However, I cannot confirm the figure at this stage. I think that figure was a rough order of magnitude. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Hold on. The witnesses supplied documents to this committee and told us it was \u20ac250 million. I have a very simple question: what is the provenance of that \u20ac250 million figure, which is \u20ac60 million more than the figure given to us at the end of 2024? Can Ms Considine even explain that \u20ac60 million increase? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  I understand the reference to the \u20ac250 million figure was an outer range, if the project was to continue over the next number of years. It is not a figure that relates to where we are today and what would be required. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  How did the NTA get to that figure? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  I might hand that over to Mr. Hendrick. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  In reference to the \u20ac189 million figure, we put forward a range a few years ago when we were working through the project with Indra and were expecting to complete the project with Indra, but obviously later than planned. Commercial reset number two put us into the 2027 completion timeline and we did a risk assessment against how late it may be against that.  We did a project range forecast of \u20ac175 million to \u20ac205 million, which is where the \u20ac189 million comes from; it is the midpoint. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Can Mr. Hendrick tell me how we are now at \u20ac250 million? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  The source of this goes back to the lack of a developed product from Indra, which is driving the project delays. That \u20ac250 million, which is in our briefing note, is an indicative estimate. It is just extrapolating based on time. It is the time delay to complete the project and the level of resource effort that would likely be required to complete the project. That is what it is driven by. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  As for the resource effort Mr. Hendrick is talking about there, is that buying a new TMS software project from a new supplier? The NTA estimates that will cost \u20ac60 million. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  That is provisional because we have not got to the final decision on the way forward. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  Basically, that was based on Indra continuing over an elongated period. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  The witnesses are both saying completely contradictory things. One is saying that relates to the acquisition of new software, while the other is saying it relates to Indra. Which is it? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  The briefing document, as it was done at the time, was on the basis that if we stayed going with Indra, albeit without any predictability of where it was going to finish, it could end up in that particular zone or territory. We have not finalised that way forward yet, so we cannot----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  I just asked Mr. Hendrick a moment ago if that related to the acquisition of a new TMS software, and he said \"Yes\". He nodded as I was speaking to him. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Either way, we are going to have expenditure more than the \u20ac205 million we indicated in that range, whatever way we go forward with the project, because the project is going to finish significantly beyond 2027. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  I said that is \u20ac60 million more, and that figure the NTA has talked about is for the new software it is potentially going to have to acquire----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  There will be costs to that new software. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  The NTA has estimated that at \u20ac60 million. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  No, we do not have a final figure for that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  I did not say the witnesses had that final figure. I said the figure the witnesses have given us, and by the way, I am only questioning figures they have given us----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Yes, exactly. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  That is all I am doing. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  That figure relates to Indra. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  It does not relate to any future costs the NTA would need to acquire new software. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  It does not, because we have not got to the final decision or solution there. We still need to finalise what that will be and those figures, so that figure does not relate to it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  What is the point of the \u20ac250 million figure? What is the NTA trying to tell us? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  If the project continued with Indra, albeit with no definitive timeline. We did an estimate for the board at that time, when we put that into the document, of where this could end up if the project continued with Indra beyond 2030. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  If the project continues to not deliver the software the NTA needs. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  If the project continued to deliver and was completed as per originally planned, albeit much later. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  It would go to \u20ac250 million. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  It could. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  If the contract with Indra is terminated, what do the witnesses think the cost will be? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  We cannot say the definite number at this time because we have not got the final decision agreed on how we would move forward with that. We will have to finalise that figure. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  According to The Irish Times and the letter Irish Rail sent to the NTA, the plan is to look for an exception outside the normal rules of public procurement and get Siemens Mobility to provide the TMS service. That is what was reported in The Irish Times . That is Irish Rail's plan but it needs approval, is that correct? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  I do not think we can go into that. It goes back to----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  It is unfortunate that things are covered outside of process, but we have to follow the process and preserve the legal and commercial integrity of the discussions that are currently----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  It is the NTA's plan to look outside of public procurement to replace the software, is that not correct? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  At present, we have proven in-use technology on our network that is capable and is part of our strategy to de-risk the obsolescence risk in this area, which is an option going forward. However, we cannot prejudge what will happen over the coming weeks. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Obviously, if you issue a notice, that is a public notice and will be published on eTenders or whatever, if Irish Rail is looking to go outside the public procurement rules. Mr. Hendrick mentioned earlier he was advocating that, in certain circumstances, going outside the tender rules could be a better outcome for the delivery of software. This was reported in The Irish Times with reference to the letter. We are sort of dancing around a pin here. That is the plan. Whatever about Siemens - maybe the witnesses cannot talk about that - the plan is to go outside public procurement to replace the software. The witnesses can say that, can they not? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  I do not think it is strictly correct to say it is outside of public procurement, per se . "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Sorry, the witnesses are looking for a lawful exception to go outside the standard. The NTA is not going to issue a tender; it is going to directly engage. It is going to do it in a different way through the existing public procurement rules. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  We are looking at different routes and avenues to it, but I have to go back to the comment from my colleague earlier about the whole thing.  We are still in contract with Indra----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Going back to the original contract, is Mr. Hendrick familiar with the term \"abnormally low pricing bid\"? He indicated that the bid was 50% lower than the other bid that Indra was----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  If I may just correct myself, because I misspoke earlier, the unsuccessful tender was 50% higher. Technically, it is just to do with the percentage----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  That is okay, but it was a very big differential. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  There was a differential between them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  An enormous differential. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Sizeable, yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Well, it is not prescribed but, typically, as I understand it, an abnormally low bid would be between 15% and 20%, but Mr. Hendrick said it was 50%. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  If I may just say this, because I have to be careful around the commercial sensitivities of that information as well, we have the NEC contract model, so we were able to have full insight into how those prices were made up in a way you might not see in other contract models. The differential was driven by the fee approaches that the bidders took. One bidder had a similar cost base, if that makes sense, but how they marked up their cost to generate their price was very different from the successful tender----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Nevertheless, it was 50% more. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  As a total, it was of that order. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Mr. Hendrick knows the legal obligations that apply to contracting authorities when an abnormally low tender bid happens. Was an investigation carried out at the time? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  It was investigated. It was assessed. We do a normalisation process to work through that. Based on the visibility of the prime cost of the work for both bidders, they were both in a similar range, but it was the fee differential that was different. We worked through a process to satisfy ourselves that it did not meet the legal standard for abnormally low. That was the procurement decision that was reached and that led to the contract award. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  In respect of the issue Mr. Hendrick raised about the two versions of the software, he said that Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann had examined it and that, legally, Indra was not in breach of contract. Obviously, Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann sought or relied on legal advice in the context of examining this issue. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  I was not in this position at the time but, in terms of my understanding of what the project team went through, we assessed it with the project team, the engineering professionals on the project and the people who were working to manage the contract. I cannot say whether there was legal advice taken on that particular decision. I would have to come back to the Deputy on it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  But Mr. Hendrick indicated earlier that, legally, it was not a breach of contract. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  There are project professionals. Some of them are not lawyers, but they are----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Mr. Hendrick does not know yet whether Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann has assessed whether that constitutes a legal breach of contract. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  The assessment decision was made by the project team at the time, including by people who are there to professionally manage the contract, not necessarily lawyers. We do not have lawyers working in project delivery, let us say, but they are still responsible for managing the contract, managing claims, deciding whether a claim has entitlement or not, establishing whether there is a breach of contract. This is normal with all our projects. In certain cases, depending on the situation, we also take legal advice. I cannot say whether----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  My time is short, so I will ask just one final question. The restart agreement was a sort of contract agreement at the end of 2024 between Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann and Indra based on all the deliberations, is that correct? Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann agreed to the restart agreement and six months later identified problems. Going forward, is Mr. Hendrick concerned that Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann has sort of lost its right to moan about everything that went wrong before the restart agreement in the context of any future recourse it may wish to take? Is that going to prove problematic for it as the contracting authority? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  I go back to a comment from my colleague earlier. We are still in contract with Indra. This is all commercially and legally sensitive, so it is difficult for me to----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  During this hearing and in the documents he has provided, however, Mr. Hendrick has identified several moments when challenges, concerns and red flags arose. He has put all that out there. Once Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann executed a new agreement with Indra, is Mr. Hendrick concerned that it might be problematic into the future in terms of any recourse Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann might have against Indra? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  It depends. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank Deputy Geoghegan. I will ask some questions. Six years after the initial contract and two years after the full implementation of the TMS was due to be delivered, how much has actually been delivered? We know it was broken up into different CPs. CP1, for example, represented what percentage of the entirety of the contract? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  CP1, which was the Rosslare line, was about 3% of the overall----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  About 3%. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Yes. It is about 6% of----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  In terms of complexity, that was the easier part to implement. We are talking about a write-down of \u20ac50 million, which is growing, and other costs, which I will get into in a moment, and we have not even seen 3% delivered. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  That is correct. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  We talk about red flags and interventions. That speaks volumes. As regards the contract with Indra, Ms Considine stated that the company has embarked on a legal process. Has Indra been informed legally that the contract is going to be terminated? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  As stated earlier, we really cannot go into that. We are still in contract with Indra and----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  We are dancing on the head of a pin here. A decision was taken by the board----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  Decisions have been taken and----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  -----of Irish Rail, supported by the NTA, and we cannot say what was involved. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  We would have confirmation of the support of the NTA on Monday afternoon, so we need to work through that. The Cathaoirleach will appreciate that it is only Thursday. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Has ministerial consent been asked for or is ministerial consent needed? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell  At this point, no. Ms Considine mentioned the resilience measures. Because of the delays relating to the traffic management system, which had two parts, which were to deliver a traffic management system for the country----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Has the Minister given approval to terminate the contract? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell  No. Ministerial approval would not be required, but the Minister has approved resilience works through the infrastructure----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I will get to that in a minute. I want to talk about the decision to seek a capital investments lead on the project. Whose decision was it that capital investments in Irish Rail would lead out on this? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  It would have been the CEO at the time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  In light of your experience in capital investments, you might give us some examples of IT projects that capital investments delivered successfully in the years prior to the decision to enter this contract. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Capital investments is primarily delivering all the new railway infrastructure projects and rolling stock projects----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Physical infrastructure, engineering projects----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  -----and that includes signalling. I want to make this distinction, because it is really important. The train control system is a signalling project. It involves----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  What IT experience existed in capital investments? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  May I just say, it involves hardware and software. We are dealing with hardware and software and other signalling projects, which we are delivering to plan. This is not an IT project. I appreciate that it has the hallmarks of one because of what it has become, but it is a signalling project - a signalling system. Because of the difficulties----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  A signalling project that heavily depended on IT and technology. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  There is hardware and software in every signalling project, but you should not have an IT-type project delivery when you have a developed signalling product----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  What specific IT experience----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Capital investments are not an IT delivery organisation, and we were not delivering IT projects. I want to make that clear. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Who would be the person within Irish Rail who would have the competent head of technology? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  Technology sits in a number of areas. There----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Who is the competent head? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  We have a chief information officer, CIO, for the organisation who would look after all the infrastructure. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  What role did the CIO play? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  He would have sat on the initial project board. I can confirm that afterwards. We also have operational technology that, as my colleague Mr. Hendrick said----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  The information I have is that the competent head was never involved in the project from the very start right through to design to tender to project management, or, indeed, in the intervening years. You might come back to us----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  I will come back and clarify. That is fine. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  -----if you want to contradict that. It has been reported that payment to Indra stopped in April? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  It was February. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  February. There is a claim by Indra. A figure of \u20ac5.67 million has been put out there. What is the timeframe relating to that claim. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Indra has raised a number of claims relating to the period 2025 to 2026. We have assessed the claims that have been submitted and they have been rejected as lacking entitlement under the contract. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  All claims have been rejected. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  They have been professionally assessed. We have assessed them thoroughly against the contract and we have rejected them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  There is no outstanding claim for \u20ac5.67 million. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  There is a claim there. We have rejected it but Indra has not rejected our rejection of its claim thus far. I am not saying it will not reject our rejection. If it wants to do so, it is entitled to under the contract. All I am saying is that it has not done that yet. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  On the cost, we know there was a write-down of \u20ac50 million. The witnesses have touched on the existing train management system in Connolly Station. Over \u20ac6 million in funding has been allocated. Is that to strengthen the system or what is it to do? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  That funding was made available through the Department of Transport to allow us to address the obsolescence issues. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  How much funding was provided? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  It is in and around the figure the Cathaoirleach mentioned for this year. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  It is \u20ac6 million for this year. What is it for next year? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  I cannot give a figure for next year. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell  Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann submitted a proposal to us for about \u20ac20 million over three years for that work. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  That is \u20ac20 million over three years. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell  It proposed \u20ac20 million over the next three years but we have only given approval for the first year of the project. While we recognise the importance of the resilience works, we did not want to pre-empt the software testing phase with Indra and any subsequent decisions around the TMS more generally. At this point----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  This \u20ac20 million is to shore up a 20-year-old system that is outdated----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell  No. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  No. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  -----and that was due to be replaced. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell  It is not. It is to deliver a new system that will----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  It is for a completely new system. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell  -----work in parallel with the old system. The benefit of that is that it gives us greater redundancy in signalling in the greater Dublin area. It will support the direction of the DART+ programme. It also frees up some spare parts from the older obsolete system at Connolly Station so it gives us more resilience across the entire network. That system is no longer supported and we are running out of spare parts. Over the next three years, we will see a signalling solution in Dublin and greater resilience across the entirety of the network. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  There are further concerns in relation to a new signalling system in Cork that is due to come into being in August 2027. According to the minutes provided by Irish Rail, if there is a delay to the commissioning date for the Cork signalling system, it could lead to additional costs on the project, including contractor delay claims and internal and external project management claims of up to \u20ac800,000 per month. That system depends on a train management system being in place to underpin it. Will the witnesses give us some reassurance? The necessary TMS was to be the system Indra was going to deliver, which is now clearly not going to happen. What reassurance can the witnesses give us that a system will be in place to ensure there are no financial penalties in relation to that particular signalling system? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  Part of resolving where we are at the moment and moving forward is looking at how we can deliver a train control system for the entire country. As Mr. Campbell has said, with the benefit of funding from the Department, we are able to address the greater Dublin area. We now need to look at a solution for the whole country. The Cork area commuter rail project is a critical project. We do not want to have to delay or implicate that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  We have just over 12 months. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  We are looking at options. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  We have just over 12 months. Can you give us assurance that a system will be in place to underpin that new signalling system, which is due to commence in August 2027, to ensure no financial penalties are imposed? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  That will be a key consideration of ours. We will obviously be putting forward a case for funding to secure that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  There is no funding and no one in place to deliver that. Am I right in saying there are penalties of up to \u20ac800,000 written into that contract in addition to other financial considerations? We are facing serious financial repercussions if we do not have a system in place by August 2027. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  The Cathaoirleach is right that there will be costs if we do not come up with a solution but, as he has said, there are 12----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  There will be costs to the tune of \u20ac800,000 a month. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  That was an estimated cost. The key thing here is that, as you have rightly said, we are 12 months away. There are options and we need to make sure they are put in place to avoid that cost. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Are you confident we will avoid that cost? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  We will do everything we can to----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  There is no confidence there. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  I cannot guarantee the funding but that is certainly our intention. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  We have written off \u20ac50 million. That is wasted. Some \u20ac20 million is being provided for a system for the greater Dublin area, which is only necessary because of the failure to deliver the TMS. There are further financial considerations next year because of this failure. The millions are ratcheting up here constantly. That is before we actually move towards putting in place a TMS. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  To clarify, that is a TMS. The work we are doing in the greater Dublin area is a traffic control system. If we come up with a solution for Cork, it will be a permanent solution. This is not wasted money. It is the solution. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I want to talk about the rest of the country outside the GDA. One of my colleagues touched on potentially giving a contract directly to Siemens. I believe Siemens withdrew from the initial tendering process. I would have concerns about bypassing normal procurement rules. Anyone looking to deliver a train management system has the State over a barrel. I would have serious concerns that anyone looking to deliver such a system could just name their price. I might ask the Comptroller and Auditor General's office for a view on concerns relating to bypassing a normal procurement process and awarding a contract of such a nature directly. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Colette Drinan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Colette Drinan  I am obviously not going to comment on Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann and its operations specifically. In procurement, openness, transparency and competition are needed to underpin value for money. That is the standard. In exceptional circumstances, stepping away from that can be justified but a very clear audit trail would be necessary. It is a complex matter. There would be a need for legal advice and so on to underpin it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I would have serious concerns that any prospective deliverer of a TMS will have the State over a barrel because of the situation Irish Rail finds itself in. I will touch on another couple of areas quickly. Have people been recruited to work in the national control centre? How many staff does Irish Rail currently employ in that centre? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  We have a number of operations. We control a number of aspects of the railway from the national control centre. These include control of the overhead powerlines for the DART network, some of the CCTV systems, level crossings and a part of the network on the Sligo line. That is as was always planned. That has been delivered because it was not dependent on the Indra project. There are a number of staff in there. We would have to come back to the Cathaoirleach with the number. It is low because it is not the full complement. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I have seen some of the recruitment advertising. The figure I have been given is that up to 30 staff have been recruited over the last two years to work on the signalling system and the TMS. Were any people employed specifically to be trained to operate the TMS? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  We would have employed some people in preparation for CP1 going live. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  How many? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  I would have to come back to the Cathaoirleach. I do not have the number to hand. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Are they still in employment? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Yes, my understanding is that whoever we have employed----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  There are people sitting in the national control centre twiddling their thumbs and waiting for Indra to deliver CP1. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  No. They are controlling what can be controlled from the NTCC building at the moment based on the assets that are being managed from the building today. We have obviously scaled back recruitment. Until we have certainty on the programme, we need to look at staff----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Could that figure be up to 30 staff? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Is the Cathaoirleach asking about all the staff who are in there today across 24-7 operations? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I am asking about staff working on that kind of----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  It could be but I would have to come back to you on it. There would not be 30 on any given shift. There would be a smaller number on a standard shift. We would have to come back to you. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  To clarify, a number of the control desks have migrated in there, as Mr. Hendrick was saying. There are staff working on those desks on a 24-7 basis. They are using the existing technology, however. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  There has been a considerable cost. Some of these staff would have been trained up on the TMS and CP1. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  That is limited. We had to scale that back given the programme difficulties with Indra. We only have the staff there to manage what is currently being managed and controlled from the control room. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  You might come back to us with more information on the costs associated with that. We will go back to the members. With the agreement of the witnesses, we will open it up for a second round of five minutes per speaker. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  The drip feed of information we have received about this project is not acceptable. It is essential that we get clear and transparent information from the NTA, Irish Rail and the Department on this and all other projects.  When we look at the governance structure of this project, it was more complicated than a small multinational, yet the only entity in this whole fiasco that seems to have been raising red flag, particularly since 2020 and seriously from 2022, was the sponsoring authority. Why did the NTA not step in earlier and resolve this issue? Why did the Department not step in earlier? It is simply not good enough. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hugh Creegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Hugh Creegan  The NTA has been actively involved over the past four years as the problem arose. It was not the case of us being blind to it. At various points along the problem cycle, we made joint decisions with Irish Rail as to what should happen and that has been the case for the past two years. It has not been the case that we have been blind to it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  Reading between the lines and reading Irish Rail's submissions and the numerous times it raised issues with the NTA, it was screaming, \"Help, get us out of this; help, we need to terminate this\", at the NTA. The decision - the joint decision apparently - always seemed to continue, that we would throw millions more at this project. What does that say about the NTA's oversight? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hugh Creegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Hugh Creegan  At each point, we had a particular issue to deal with. We did grapple with the choices and, as the Deputy can see, impairment and all the consequences are really big issues. With Irish Rail, we looked at the alternatives. There was a major meeting with Indra in 2024 where we demanded an immediate plan to remedy the project. We did get a plan off it that seemed credible and we proceeded with that. Ultimately, it did not deliver. Last year, a report from WSP identified something that could deliver this but it would need to be done in a different way with a series of recommendations. Together with Irish Rail, we sought to do exactly that so at each point along the project, we have tried to rescue it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  That is the point. It was clear to me a year ago, and I was not even in the weeds of it a year ago, that this project was failing when I started questions about it. The NTA was in the weeds of it so it should have been clearer to it much earlier.  I want to move on because we have not even reached the buses. Is the NTA acquiring buses? Is it the approving authority or the sponsoring authority or both? I am so confused by the various different blurred lines of the far too many hats worn by the NTA. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hugh Creegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Hugh Creegan  When it comes to buses, it is crystal clear. We purchase the buses. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  Which means it is the sponsoring authority. Who is the NTA's oversight authority? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hugh Creegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Hugh Creegan  In the case of BusConnects, we set an internal programme board with----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  Who does it report to? The NTA probably. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hugh Creegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Hugh Creegan  No, we have external members and our board is chaired by an external person. That board acts as the approving authority for certain decisions of the project. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  Who does that board report to? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hugh Creegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Hugh Creegan  Ultimately, we all report to the Department of Transport. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  We need to get back into that again in September. In terms of the position the Department and the NTA seem to be taking on the buses, that we are saving money by having buses sitting in storage, as has been said in the D\u00e1il and the documents provided here today, we need to see a very detailed cost-benefit analysis of how the Department is coming to that conclusion. It leads me to believe that the indexation of the inflation clauses in the framework agreement are far too generous. This needs to be looked at by the Department.  In terms of the planning, I refute the contention by the NTA that you cannot plan the planning phase of the delivery of the electric grid charger at the same time as ordering buses. It should not be a case of one after the other, which seems to be what the NTA is saying it should be. The NTA should know how long it is going to take in each local authority for it to obtain the planning permission and then order the buses based on that. It is not rocket science. Some of the stuff in here such as contending that we would have had to delay it until the infrastructure was in place is simply unacceptable if there was any project management capability on this. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell  I will come briefly. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  Mr. Campbell is very brave. Mr. Creegan was about to come in there. Let us hear from Mr. Creegan. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell  Regarding the analysis of the storage costs versus the bus one year later, inflation clauses probably may have been standard at the time but that period was the time of the Ukraine war so inflation probably was quite high. That analysis has been done by the NTA and does stack up. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  We have not seen it. All we have seen is this rhetoric. The Committee of Public Accounts has not seen the detail. Do not tell us it is saving us money without showing us. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell  It is costing money but it is costing less as----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  It certainly is. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell  Mr. Creegan will come back in more detail on this. We have had a century of internal combustion engine buses. They are easy to install. It is a case of build a depot and drive them in. We are doing all of this for the first time. Research and development, getting planning applications in and get planning approval are happening for the first time. All of that has happened for the first time and there have been problems but the NTA has installed----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  It is not rocket science. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hugh Creegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Hugh Creegan  We did exactly what the Deputy suggested. We tried to align the provision of chargers and the purchase of buses. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  There were two failed procurement processes. That is a serious reflection on the NTA - two failed procurement processes for electricity-charging infrastructure. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hugh Creegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Hugh Creegan  We can buy the buses, but when it comes to putting the chargers in the depots, the depots are run by the bus operators so they ran those procurement competitions. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  It is always someone else. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hugh Creegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Hugh Creegan  They are the facts. We did align the bus purchasing programme and the charger installation programme, so at the start of the process, they were aligned. Due to problems that arose, they became disconnected and we ended up with the problems we have. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  I want to bring it back to a really high level. In some ways, I know the answer but what exact amount has been spent on the project to date? Is it \u20ac150 million? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  It is \u20ac150 million plus \u20ac3 million to date this year. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  Could Ms Considine clarify the figure of \u20ac3 million? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  The figure of \u20ac3 million is the ongoing cost of managing the project this year. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  Who is getting that money? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  As Mr. Hendrick would have said, we have stopped paying Indra since February so there would be some Indra costs in there and then there would be third-party costs and our own project management costs. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  Is Irish Rail continuing to capitalise that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  No. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  So that is going through Irish Rail's current expenditure. Does that affect its current budget? Is it something Irish Rail had assumed would be in the costs in its budget? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  We would have seen it----- "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(Interruptions)."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  -----when we set that budget last year. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  So it will affect Irish Rail's current budget. That is money it would not have budgeted for. If it is not capitalising it now----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  It is coming out of the capital side, which is going through profit and loss, but it was meant to go into the balance sheet. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  I know, but it is actually going through profit and loss. It is an expense. Irish Rail would not have put it in. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  It is, but it is in and out because of funding. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  I am very conscious that Ms Considine is new to her role. Was this something she quickly saw as a red flag when she assumed her role? I am conscious that she has come in. It was written off in her time. How long has she been in her role. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  I am about nine months in. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  So essentially she is trying to clear the decks. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  My first board meeting was in October when there was a red flag in respect of this. We really focused----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  Was it highlighted at the meeting? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  It would have been flagged as a red flag project in the first board reporting. We are managing a significant portfolio of projects - \u20ac3.6 billion in phase six execution - and this was the one with the red flag on it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  Can someone tell me what the old CEO thought of this, because we know Ms Considine cleared the decks? All too often, we come in after hearing that the person who had previous oversight has gone. Does anyone know what his stated view was? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  I cannot speak for anyone else but if the Deputy looks----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  On the record. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  -----at all the data, concerns were raised all the way through and there would have been a number of senior meetings with Indra to try to resolve this. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  Did he ever wish for it to be written off? It is just interesting that Ms Considine came in and wrote it off straight away. What was his view? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  As we discussed earlier, there was no discussion at the board about impairment because it was still working on a way forward. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  That was despite the fact that there were a serious amount of flags. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  There were serious flags but as my colleague has said there were two commercial rebasings of it on the basis that everybody believed the project was going to be delivered. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  With the \u20ac152 million capitalised; I am sorry, how much is capitalised on the books now? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  There is \u20ac100 million of----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  There is \u20ac100 million capitalised, \u20ac53 million written off of a current total expense of----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  Okay. Where are we with the project? What if I am asked today? Someone says we have wasted \u20ac50 million and asks me where we are with the other \u20ac100 million. From a holistic perspective----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  The \u20ac100 million is a building in use. We have----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  It is a building in use. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  It is in use. As we spoke of earlier on, a number of our controllers our working out there based on existing technology. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  Are we happy with the build-up of that cost basis? I mean the capitalised nature of it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  No write-down on the building. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  That is what I am saying. The officials are happy that the \u20ac50 million is not linked to the \u20ac100 million, so it is just the software cost of the same project. What is the building being used for? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  The building is being used by our own team who are operating on existing technology we plan to replace. Garda\u00ed are also operating out of there and the building has been future-proofed for Dublin City Council. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  Dublin City Council. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  Yes, to look to control the overall traffic system for the city. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  Okay, so we have a \u20ac100 million building but all the software - essentially, the actual project - is gone. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  Just on the \u20ac100 million, you have the building, hardware costs for the new technology----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  I am conscious of----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  -----and a lot of enabling work was done around the network for the new train control system. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  How much do we believe will have to be spent? I assume this project will have to go ahead in some shape or form. What is the cost going to be of that project? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  I am just repeating myself, and I apologise, but it is at a sensitive time commercially and legally, so I cannot answer that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  But we are going to go down that route again. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  I am happy to come back and clarify once we are through the----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  I know, but the project still has to be done. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  Absolutely. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  That is fine.  This is more maybe for the NTA. What are the ramifications for it? We have a lot of projects coming up like DART+ West, DART+ South West and MetroLink. How do we feel? This involves the Department of public expenditure as well. At the infrastructure committee we had the interim CEO of MetroLink in. At the budgetary oversight committee, the Department of public expenditure was saying it does not really have a role because that role is subbed out to other people. The Department was not aware of this issue when I raised it on Tuesday. It seems strange to me that people at senior levels in that Department are not necessarily aware of a \u20ac50 million write-off in an entity where ultimately it is writing the cheques. I am not asking where the learnings are going to be because I hate asking that question, but what are the implications and ramifications considering the significant amount of money we are going to have to spend on infrastructure to bring it up if we can miss out on a project like this which showed many red flags? Was it 63 tests I saw were failed along the way, or where issues were brought up? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  There were over 600 test log issues with 63 kind of substantial issues, I believe. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  There were 63 flagged failures on a project over many years, yet we just come to the end and someone new comes in and says we need to write that off because ultimately we have nothing to show for it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell  I will come in first from the Department's perspective. To take the point on the Department of public expenditure, we have been engaging with our Transport Vote colleagues in the Department, so they are aware of these issues. We have been----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  The senior levels of the Department of public expenditure were not. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell  That would be at principal officer level. I am not sure internally then how it was communicated----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  I just thought it was striking. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell  I am not sure I can comment on the Department of public expenditure's----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  I will not say the name but it was striking. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell  As I mentioned, we in the Department have been very concerned about this project all along. When you look at the Arts Council IT project, the failings outlined in this committee's report or the Niamh Brennan report were around not having formal structures in place and not escalating these issues up the line. We have those with the MPGOG. We have our independent members. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  My fear here is that it was up the line. My fear is that it was at very senior levels. We have been told that it was at very senior levels yet no decision was made until somebody else came in when somebody left. Then someone else sits here and deals with the consequences. What we see in here all too often is somebody new like Ms Considine having to answer questions about something that happened prior to her tenure. She is having to answer the questions but all those flags were there along the way. There was a significant failure somewhere. I am not saying it was with the Department of Transport but something definitely happened. Money was being spent and wasted and the flags were there, but everyone was tipping along. Then they were out the door and we are left dealing with a mess here. All too often we have seen the same trend. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell  What really changed in the last few months was that Indra delivered the software for CP1 in April. That was the point at which the impairment decision was made and decisions were made about the future of the project and getting onto a sustainable footing going forward. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  I am going to ask about the timeline. Mr. Campbell has just spoken about April. When did Ms Considine say she came in? Was it nine months ago? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  I took over in October. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  When was her first board meeting? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  At the end of October. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  She knew on 1 October. We are talking about April. Even if she was not told at her first one, I am sure it was not the first time it was raised at board level. For the Department of public expenditure to say the first indication it had was in April is significant in itself. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell  Just to clarify for the Deputy, I am from the Department of Transport. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  Well, the Department of Transport or the Department of public expenditure. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell  We knew we had serious concerns about the programme for the past four years. We had a number of deep dives on the project as well. We were concerned about the management of the project itself. We were assured by NTA and Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann management but also we were concerned about the wider portfolio of rail projects and what mitigants were in place. For the Waterford North Quays, Galway Ceannt and Foynes line projects, mitigants were in place. I have mentioned the infrastructure management of the annual contract, which is a mitigant for the greater Dublin area. We have a concern about Cork as well. Ms Considine has mentioned that we are working that through to ensure we can bring Cork online. We have been aware of the issues with this project all along and we have had a number of deep dive discussions on it. We have been escalating that to the Minister and to senior management in the Department as well. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  I thank all the witnesses for staying for so long with us to take some supplementary questions. The more I hear, the more I realise the \u20ac50 million figure is going to grow significantly. It is not \u20ac50 million but a lot more due to the flawed decision to proceed with this project and sign the contract with Indra back in 2020. Just to clarify, the \u20ac50 million write-down is one thing and the report that has been commissioned by the NTA is an extra \u20ac230,000. The \u20ac3 million expenditure in the year to date is effectively part of the written-off project. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  It is written off, yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  That is in addition to the \u20ac50 million. Some of that was to Indra and some to third parties. The Chair was probing this, but on the interim works that were required to keep the traffic management system safe and up to speed - works that would not have been necessary if a project was delivered in 2024, for example - what is the amount from 2024 up to now? What was spent between 2020 and 2024 was necessary in any event but between 2024, when the new system should have been in place, and now how much has been spent keeping alive the system that is there? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  I do not have that figure. I imagine a lot of that work was done by our team in the signalling electrical area, as part of the infrastructure management. That would be part of their day job of supporting the existing system and keeping it going. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  But it took resources and it was necessary because the new system was not delivered in 2024. The point is that it is an aggregate cost in terms of the overall waste. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  To clarify in case there is any confusion, we have been keeping the system we have, which is life-expired, going. That is done by our own team and they are supporting it----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  I understand. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  -----with their spare parts and all that and the experience they have in managing it. I think the Deputy is asking what we have spent on maintaining an old system. Separately----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  From 2024 until now. In 2024 we should have had a new system but we did not. Obviously the old system had to be kept going and that cost extra money. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  Yes, and I do not know how much. I do not think it would have been very significant but we will come back. I do not know that figure. We are looking at ways forward to derisk the train control. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  I know. The \u20ac50 million is what is quoted repeatedly but it is much more than that, ultimately. There will be ongoing legal actions. That is confirmed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  It is not confirmed but we are obviously looking at all legal considerations at the moment in relation to the contract. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  It is highly likely there will be ongoing legal actions, which is an additional cost. Going back to the original tender, what was the original contract value with Indra? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  The target price was \u20ac16.4 million, excluding VAT. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  That was the contract value. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  That was the build contract. There was a different price for the maintenance. If it got it built, there was an annual price to manage that system going forward, but the----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  Just help me to understand that. We have a \u20ac50 million write-down but the original contract was \u20ac16 million. Just explain that to me. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  In the write-down, the equivalent of the \u20ac16 million including VAT was circa \u20ac20 million.  Through the commercial resetting we did under resets 1 and 2, that has brought that contract up to about \u20ac30 million. We have written down about \u20ac28 million of that \u20ac30 million because it was predominantly, as we talked about earlier in response to Deputy Neville, the software and part of the hardware. The other costs between the \u20ac30 million and the \u20ac50 million are also the level of effort we expended with some of our support organisations and our own staff. We went through every single resource. Every effort was allocated to supporting Indra on the software. Once you write down the software, the other writedowns happen as a function of that. It is an indirect consequence of it. That is what brings us up to the \u20ac50 million. It is the Indra contract price. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  The original contract was \u20ac16 million. The writedown was \u20ac50 million because of all those actions that had to be taken. Is that correct? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  It is carrying writedown on other contracts, not just Indra, if that makes sense. There is the Indra contract and the writedown of that. The corollary of that is that in respect of any of the other contracts that were supporting the particular element that has failed, which is the software, we had to make an assessment based on what those individuals were doing in every given month throughout the contract period to identify whether it was linked to that or not in order to comply with our duties regarding the financial statements. That is how we got to that figure. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  If I may add, the \u20ac50 million includes VAT. It would be \u20ac43 million plus \u20ac7 million in VAT. The \u20ac7 million, obviously, goes back to the Exchequer. All our figures and schedules include VAT because we do not recover VAT. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  To return to my original train of thought, we are at \u20ac54 million in terms of the report commissioned, the \u20ac3 million this year, the \u20ac50 million and the interim works that had to be done on the system. We do not have a figure on that, but I presume it is adding up to a few hundred thousand. I am speculating on that. We now also have to deliver a new system. We are six years on. We have inflation, which, it could be argued, will add 30% or 40% to what the value should have been. It is potentially tens of millions in additional costs in that. The \u20ac50 million is only the baseline really. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  The Deputy is correct. There will be additional costs, unfortunately, but we need a train control system and----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  I understand that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  -----and we need to move forward. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  I am just saying that quantifying this broad decision at \u20ac50 million is not accurate. It is much more than \u20ac50 million. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  Yes. The sum of \u20ac50 million is just the impairment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  We cannot settle on a figure, but it is clearly going to be tens of millions more than \u20ac50 million. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  On the impairment figure for the financial statement, we still carry the full cost of the project as \u20ac153 million we have spent to date and whatever we have to spend on top of that. We do not lose that number from how we report the project, but the point is well made. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"S\u00e9amus McGrath","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"S\u00e9amus-McGrath.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath  I will move on briefly to the NTA, if I may, in relation to a local issue. There are ongoing reliability issues with the bus service in Cork. They have been going on for years. There is deep frustration among the public regarding the cancellation of buses, ongoing unreliability, late buses and the information app not providing accurate information over the years. Endless representations have been made. We have been told that the recruitment of drivers will solve the problem, that new buses are being delivered and that investment is being made, yet we continue to have reliability issues. Is there any end to this? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  There is continued investment in the bus network in Cork. There were issues with driver recruitment, but I am pleased to say Bus \u00c9ireann is now fully staffed in terms of the numbers of drivers they need for the services they are running. We had intended this year to begin the first phase of the BusConnects service redesign this year. We are still in discussions with the Department of Transport to make sure that we do that next year. We have already put those bus stops in place and they are ready for those new services. There has been some investment down there as well. We are also investing in electrification and Tivoli depot, which I mentioned in my opening statement, is due to open in the next month. That will enable the buses to go out of the current depot to be sited over there. The current depot can then be taken over in terms of putting in the required electrification and so on. It can then also receive some of those electric buses.  There are also issues with bus reliability, as the Deputy mentioned. Older buses are running at the moment. The intention of the electrification programme is to replace those buses. Bus \u00c9ireann has also recruited additional mechanics, etc., to get those back on the ground. The current depot is very constrained in terms of being able to do the mechanical repairs, fix the engines, etc. The temporary depot in Tivoli will enable more maintenance to be carried out. It will address some of the issues of buses being off the road. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  I thank the witnesses for staying on. Was the NTA aware that Indra's original bid was 50% lower in pricing terms? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hugh Creegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Hugh Creegan  I am not sure we got the full details. We were certainly informed and gave our consent to award the contract back in 2019. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Did the NTA have sight of its abnormally low price in the investigation that took place? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hugh Creegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Hugh Creegan  Usually we would and we would usually be informed that the valuation has taken place, that an assessment has concluded and that a certain amount has been recommended, seeking our approval. That would usually be the case. I cannot say for certain. I have not looked back----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  In Mr. Creegan's long experience, has he seen such a big variance in price, 50%, for a contract as big as this? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hugh Creegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Hugh Creegan  When it comes to systems being bought and something that may be available, there can be big differences. One entity may have a product that is very close to the requirements and another entity may have to do a whole lot of work to get it. A total of 50% is large, but I have seen some up at that level. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Can the public accounts committee be furnished with details of the investigation that took place at the time - the abnormally low-bid investigation? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hugh Creegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Hugh Creegan  I am not aware that an abnormally low-bid investigation took place----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  I am sorry; Mr. Hendrick said it did. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  I did not say that. I said we assessed the tenders just to make sure when we look at them that there is not anything in there that looks unusual. The abnormally low tenders legislation or case law came in in the last few years, but we would have always looked at it to make sure that the tender price is right and reflective of the works we need to do. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Irish Rail did not carry out a Regulation No. 69 abnormally low tender investigation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  I am not saying that. We do a full procurement assessment----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  I am asking the question. Which is it? I thought Mr. Hendrick gave evidence that Irish Rail had carried out a Regulation No. 69 abnormally low bid investigation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  I would have to come back to the Deputy. I was not in the business at the time. We can come back to the Deputy with the report that we would do in terms of the procurement assessment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Every contracting authority, when an abnormally low bid comes in, under EU law and therefore Irish law, has a legal obligation to carry out an investigation. Did that happen? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  I would have to come back to the Deputy to confirm that. I would expect that it did in terms of what we have done. All our procurements are compliant and we get audited within the business from all our procurements. Nothing has been identified as an issue in terms of how we did the procurement process----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Mr. Hendrick might examine that and come back to the committee. If an investigation was, in fact, carried out, he might provide a report. If an investigation was not carried out, he might provide an explanation as to why it was not carried out at that time. I take his point about the laws and their application. All that is relevant is how they were interpreted at that time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  That is fine. We can do that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  The asset value of the TMS software that is being carried or assessed on Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann's books is \u20ac100 million. It was \u20ac100 million when the impairment review was carried out. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  It is \u20ac100 million for the project. That includes the building, the enabling works, hardware and all that stuff. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  I will ask the questions straight. When Indra bid to provide the TMS piece, what value did it put on the project originally? For how much did it say it could deliver TMS project originally? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  As my colleague Mr. Hendrick mentioned earlier on, including VAT, it was around \u20ac20 million initially. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  What did that balloon to? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  We wrote off \u20ac28 million from Indra and then there were third-party costs. There would also have been third-party costs in the project budget, but they have increased significantly because the whole project has been elongated. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Initially, it was going to deliver this project for \u20ac20 million. Let us fast-forward miles ahead to March 2026, when the project team presented to the board. Presumably, the project team's presentation to the board was a representation of what Indra was telling the project team. Is that fair? I am going back to the \u20ac250 million here now. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  If I could just go back to the Deputy's question on the \u20ac20 million contract price, the commercial reset number 2 reset that to \u20ac36 million, including VAT. There was also commercial reset number 1, which reset it as well----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Round 1 was \u20ac20 million and round 2 was \u20ac36 million. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  The assessment team would have made a determination on its own basis - not necessarily on the basis of a direct engagement with Indra but on its own knowledge of the costs and expenditure on the project at a projection----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Is Mr. Hendrick on the project team? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  The project team is reporting to me. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Mr. Hendrick presented to the board in March 2026. Is that right? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  It is me and the project team. The project team presents. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  It is Mr. Hendrick and the project team. They went to the board.  They told the board their assessment was that the global cost would be \u20ac250 million. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  That it could be. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  It could be, in the best-case scenario, if we can continue with Indra. Is that right? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Yes, and that was based on years of continuing on this project. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  That was the optimistic assessment. Did Mr. Hendrick have other scenarios? Did he have a worst-case scenario? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  No, we did not. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Mr. Hendrick went to the board with one figure, \u20ac250 million. Will he break it down and subtract the building costs from the \u20ac250 million? What is the TMS piece? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  I cannot, at this stage, but we can come back to the Deputy on it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Come on. Mr. Hendrick is the project team manager and he cannot tell me, out of the \u20ac250 million, how much of that relates to the software. Does he know that figure right now? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  No, I do not. I can come back to the Deputy on it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  What does Mr. Hendrick think it is? Come on. Mr. Hendrick presented to the board. He is being scrutinised by his board as to what this is. How can he not know? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  We did not present a breakdown. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  That was in March and we are now in July. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  We did not present a breakdown, so I will have to come back to the Deputy with the details. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  What is the build cost then, currently? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  If we go to the \u20ac150 million we have spent to the end of 2025, of that \u20ac65 million is against the building asset and \u20ac85 million is against all the signalling works we did, including the TMS and the signalling enabling works. That brings us up to \u20ac150 million to the end of 2025. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  That is \u20ac150 million on the build site. Is that correct? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  It is \u20ac150 million on signalling and on the building. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  It would be \u20ac250 million if it was kept running. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Yes, it is a projection of the \u20ac150 million continuing. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Is it 60:40, 50:50 or 80:20? Is Mr. Hendrick honestly saying that he cannot even give me a framing between build and software? They are two separate things. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Sorry, the build is finished, so it would be predominantly on the signalling and TMS system. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Okay, so what does that figure look like? There is \u20ac250 million and that includes the building. What is the TMS figure if it ran all the way? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  It would be \u20ac250 million, minus the \u20ac67 million for the building. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  It is \u20ac250 million, minus \u20ac67 million. Is that what Mr. Hendrick said? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Correct, including VAT. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  To clarify, there are also works done on signalling, SET and all that kind of stuff, which all has value. There is still \u20ac19 million of value in the signalling. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Roughly speaking, we are talking about \u20ac180 million if Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann kept going with Indra on the TMS software, based on what I have just been told. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  For all of the signalling systems, excluding the building but including Indra, yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  We would be talking about \u20ac180 million to the very end, on a project that, in the original tender, the company said would be \u20ac20 million. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  Other costs are included in there, so it is not a direct comparison. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  They are probably marginal enough, though. Will Mr. Hendrick subtract those costs for me? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  If we could say roughly, the original budget would have had approximately the \u20ac65 million for the building, which is good, and \u20ac85 million for the rest. If we do it against the \u20ac85 million, that would be a more direct comparison in terms of the question the Deputy is asking. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  How did Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann start with \u20ac20 million, get to \u20ac85 million and then get to what looks to me like \u20ac140 million to \u20ac180 million, if it ran it the whole way? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  It is based on assessment of resources working on the project from Indra----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  How did the project balloon to such an enormous degree, from day one to where we are now? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  The problem with this project, all the way through, comes back to the lack of a developed product from Indra. The prolongation on the project, where it is continuing and the resources that are working on the project continue to support this delayed project, obviously get booked to the project cost. The reason this project is delayed and is delaying us continuing all comes back to the lack of a developed product from Indra. That is the source of all of the issues. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  I am over time so I ask for the indulgence of the Chair. Has a termination notice been issued to Indra? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  We are still in contract with Indra. As I said at the outset, we are in a sensitive legal and commercial position, so we are still in contract. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  The NTA has approved Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann's request to issue a termination notice. Is that correct? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  It has approved the decision taken by our board. We have not implemented those decisions yet. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Is there no other governance check that has to be gone through to execute on the decision of the board? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  Not from an approval's perspective but we need to look at the legal options. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann will not be going back to the NTA or the Department on the next steps. It is all in its world now. Is that correct? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  Yes, it is back to us. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I have a few concluding questions. I want to go back to the implications of this regarding the cost and the delivery of expanded services. Earlier, Ms Shaw, you said you would have to look at phasing of different schemes in the future. You said there was no impact on the Metro and DART+ projects. I ask you to elaborate. I know there is a process of re-evaluation but what people in Wicklow want to hear is that there will be no impact on the DART+ Coastal South expansion to Wicklow town. What assurances can you give people in my constituency, and others across the State, that are eagerly waiting for expansion of services? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  Ultimately, we understand that to deliver the public transport system for this country, we need to make sure that we progress all of the projects we have identified in our investment plans. We need to understand what the next steps are. That is what we and Irish Rail will be concentrating on in terms of how we get to the traffic management system. Ms Considine has already explained what measures are being taken to protect the greater Dublin area. That probably answers the question about DART+ Coastal South in Wicklow. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Expansion to Wicklow is still on track for 2029. Is that correct? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  The resilience project that Irish Rail will be delivering will ensure that there is no impact on the DART+ service. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  With the process that will be embarked on, when will we know what services will be impacted in terms of further expansion or the real impact it will have on users of the rail network? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  There is a lot of work to be done to understand what the next steps are, working with Irish Rail on how we deliver the traffic management system for the rest of the country. We need to establish the costs and the delivery method. Once we have certainty on the delivery and the costs, we will also be looking across the wider programme. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  When can we expect to have that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  We have to work quite quickly, so over the next few months we should at least have some idea about what the implications are, at least an outline. Detail----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I ask you to revert to the committee as soon as you have that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  -----will need to come through the business cases that we will take through the usual governance processes as well. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I mentioned the signalling system in Cork and the timeline that is in place. Who has the contract for delivering that signalling system? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  The main contractor for the signalling system in Cork is Alstom. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  In fairness, time penalties were written into the contract. It is a pity the same was not done for the contract with Indra. Would you agree? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  There are liquidated damages in all of our contracts, including in the Indra contract. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  With the Indra contract, those were not implemented until this year. Is that correct? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  They have not been levied so far. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Why? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Hendrick","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Hendrick  When we did the commercial reset number two we effectively reset the programme dates against which those liquidated damages would apply. In the discussions we had with Indra and the NTA in 2025 it was agreed to only focus on CP1. In the nature of what we were doing, we focused on delivering CP1. We did not forfeit our right to those liquidated damages; we just did not levy them at that time. We had agreed that approach in principle at the time. Where we are at the moment is that there are no more payments to Indra in any case, as we sit here today. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  What was the cost quantitative breakdown for the next generation ticketing, NGT, tender? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  The whole cost within the business case for NGT was in the cost range. I think it has been reported to the committee before. It ranges from \u20ac240 million to \u20ac280 million. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  How many companies put in for the tender? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  There were three bidders. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Where did Indra rank? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  It won the contract. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Was it cheaper, middle or----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  It was done on the same price-quality contract. I do not have the breakdown of what the percentages were. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Was Indra's the cheapest tender bid? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  Between price and quality, yes, that is correct. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  How much cheaper? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  I cannot answer that at this point. We can come back to the committee with the information. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Please do. Given what we know about the TMS tender, it should have set off so many different alarm bells, particularly in light of what has transpired in Spain and other jurisdictions. I ask you to come to us on that.  I would be really interested to see that.  I want to touch on the issue of electric buses. To hear that keeping the buses in storage for a lengthy time is actually saving us money and it being put forward as a justification that in some bizarre way this approach is ultimately saving us money is an insult to people's intelligence. What we see here is a continuous failure on so many different levels to plan forward. To see 98 buses, valued at \u20ac730,000 each including VAT, in storage is an absolute disgrace. As it currently stands, we have over \u20ac71 million worth of electric buses still in storage. For someone to come in and try to justify that by saying it saved us money because of inflationary measures is an insult to people's intelligence. Would you agree, Mr. Creegan? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hugh Creegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Hugh Creegan  We are not trying for one minute to make it out to be a good idea. It was not the plan to have buses in storage. The plan was that the buses would arrive and the chargers would be in place and we would be able to deploy them into operational use. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I get all of that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hugh Creegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Hugh Creegan  We simply made the point that there was an offsetting cost, just to acknowledge that, but it was never a plan to have buses in storage. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Well the plan is to keep them in storage and it is going to cost us another \u20ac1.5 million by the time the 98 buses eventually come out onto the streets. What measures, if any, have been taken given the concerns this committee has expressed over the last number of months with regard to this information and the cost? Have any measures been taken to try to speed up the process to get these buses out onto the streets, or are we just content with the timeframe? Some of these buses, by the NTA's own information it has furnished, are not going to come into use until next year at some stage. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hugh Creegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Hugh Creegan  Most of them will come in this year in quarter 3 over the next few months into Dublin Bus. The Galway ones will be in quarter 4 and quarter 1 next year. Nobody is sitting back comfortable with this. Every effort is being made to try to accelerate the installation of the required charging infrastructure in the depots. People are delivering as fast as they can but we are behind. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  It is deeply unacceptable and concerning, to say the least, particularly when we are talking about such a waste of money here with Irish Rail and now we have the electric buses. I also want to touch on the park-and-ride facility in Fassaroe in my own constituency in Wicklow. Information the NTA has furnished the committee shows that \u20ac11 million has been spent. The NTA is nearly praising itself that it came in under budget. The expected budget was \u20ac12 million. It came in under budget, to use the witnesses' own words, but the fact that it is locked up and no one can actually use it speaks to that failure to plan forward to ensure the critical piece is put in place initially, which is to ensure there are buses and drivers to actually serve that facility. Does Ms Shaw see what is wrong there? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  Obviously, the intention was for the opening----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I know the intention "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Anne Shaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Anne Shaw  -----of Fassaroe for this year. It was planned in our budget submissions in terms of the operational costs for that park-and-ride facility as well, but we did not receive the funding we needed to do that. We are in discussions with the Department on what the budget allocations will be for 2027. As the operational costs are on an annual basis----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Do the officials in the Department think it is justifiable that an investment to the tune of \u20ac11 million to provide critical public transport infrastructure is left locked up, costing \u20ac50,000 in additional security costs to ensure that no one can use it? Do they think that is justifiable? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell  No. It is deeply regrettable as well. As was outlined earlier to Deputy Neville, however, it does goes back to the budget settlement with the Department of public expenditure this year for the PSO and that is what funds the services. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  So, it is the underfunding that has facilitated this. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell  We had a 43% uplift in our core PSO this year and it is now at record level. That puts us on a much more sustainable footing. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  The expectation from the NTA was for funding levels to ensure facilities like this would become available. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Tom\u00e1s Campbell  Every Government agency will ask for a budget and it will not get the entirety of the budget in a given year and that does lead to mismatches in terms of when the services will be there, but that would be----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  On the Fassaroe facility, some critical elements of that infrastructure have not been delivered. There were to be EV charging points and a substation on site there. I believe that was also to serve the plan, which ultimately has been put on the shelf as well, for the Ashford-Rathnew park-and-ride facilities. Will the NTA give the cost for the substation and explain why that is not included in the cost analysis it provided the committee, and will it give us the contract that it says will, ultimately, be given to a third party to provide the EV charging services? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hugh Creegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Hugh Creegan  I thought we had this substation cost included. However, on the chargers, we recognised as we started to go through this and based upon conversations with market providers that just us installing them blindly and not having a payment system for them was the incorrect way. What we are going to do is tender for a provider to provide the charging infrastructure at various bays in the parking location. Members will have seen from the note that we have the ducting and the prerequisite engineering put in place for it. Once we get a supplier identified, we can follow through with the chargers then.  Regarding the Ashford-Rathnew park-and-ride site, the planning consent is agreed, as the committee will know, through the local authority. That is down to the funding. We are in a position to start construction next year but it is questionable whether the funding will be there to do it. It is a question of funding for that particular park-and-ride site. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  It is questionable as to whether Ashford-Rathnew will even commence next year. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Hugh Creegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Hugh Creegan  At this stage it is, yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Okay. You might provide a note on that. There have been a lot of announcements, in my own constituency and in others, about rolling out new services. We look at new routes in Wicklow that went out to tender and the Glendalough to Bray service that people are still eagerly awaiting. Funding is not in place. We see over in west Wicklow promises made to enhance and increase the frequency of bus services there and these not being delivered. You might furnish a full note on what services had been planned that have not been able to be delivered this year because of the funding shortfall in the PSO.  The last issue I want to touch on relates to Irish Rail and company vehicles. How many company vehicles are currently in use in Irish Rail? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  I do not have the exact figure. There would be a number of fleet vehicles on the road to support a 24-7 operation around the country. I do not have the exact number. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I have a figure here of 750. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  It may be correct. I am assuming it is if the Cathaoirleach has it. I would have thought around 600. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Are they owned or leased? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  They are leased. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  They are all leased. The information I have, which you are not disputing, is that there are 750 leased vehicles in Irish Rail. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  That could be correct. We will have to clarify that. I do not have the figure. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  You might furnish a note to us there because that would be deeply concerning. There are more leased vehicles in Irish Rail than there are rail carriages, which says a lot. You might give us the full breakdown on those, including the costs and the nature and duration of the contracts. There was also a settlement for benefit-in-kind. You might give us some additional information in relation to that, the usage of some of those vehicles. Do you have some of that information to hand? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  Yes. I do not have the exact figures but there was an exercise we conducted earlier on this year - a self-review - to make sure there was no BIK owing in respect of the last number of years. A thorough review was done, an assessment was made and a settlement with the Revenue based on that figure. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  How much was that settlement? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  I think it was around \u20ac1 million, but I will confirm that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  It was \u20ac1 million. You might furnish the full detail. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  I will. I just do not have the figures to hand. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  How many vehicles, how many individuals that related to, etc., so if you could give us the full information on that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Considine","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Considine  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"John-Brady.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  That concludes our engagement today. I thank the chief executive officers and the officials from the NTA and Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann for attending. I also thank the representatives from the Department of Transport the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General for their attendance once again.  Is it agreed that the clerk will seek any follow-up information required and carry out any agreed actions arising from the meeting? Agreed.  This is the final meeting of the committee until after the summer recess. We will next meet on Thursday, 17 September 2026, to discuss the business of the committee. The committee now stands adjourned. Go raibh m\u00edle maith agaibh. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" The witnesses withdrew. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The committee adjourned at 2.50 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 17 September 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Financial Statements 2024: National Transport Authority (Resumed)"}]}}]},"contextDate":"2026-07-16"},{"debateRecord":{"house":{"showAs":"27th Seanad","committeeCode":"","houseCode":"seanad","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/house\/seanad\/27","chamberType":"house","houseNo":"27"},"chamber":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/def\/house\/seanad","showAs":"Seanad \u00c9ireann"},"lastUpdated":"2026-07-18T02:09:28+00:00","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-07-16\/debate\/main","formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-07-16\/debate\/mul@\/main.xml"},"pdf":null},"date":"2026-07-16","counts":{"contributorCount":48,"divisionCount":4,"debateSectionCount":19,"questionCount":0,"billCount":2},"debateType":"debate","debateSections":[{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_2","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Gn\u00f3 an tSeanaid - Business of Seanad","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  I have received notice from the following Senators that they propose to raise the following matters:  Senator Garret Kelleher - The need for the Minister for Health to provide an update on the section 39 core funding and State support being provided to Westgate Foundation, Ballincollig, County Cork.  Senator Laura Harmon - The need for the Minister for Education and Youth to provide an update on additional school accommodation for Col\u00e1iste Daibh\u00e9id, Cork city.  Senator Teresa Costello - The need for the Minister for Transport to make a statement on a review and update of the design manual for urban roads and streets.  Senator Dee Ryan - The need for the Minister for Transport to make a statement on the provision of funding to deliver the Limerick BusConnects programme.  Senator Aubrey McCarthy - The need for the Minister for Enterprise, Tourism and Employment to make a statement on the timeframe for the transposition of the platform work directive.  Senator Nessa Cosgrove - The need for the Minister for Transport to make a statement on the approval of tender documents for the construction of the eastern Garavogue Bridge and approach roads in Sligo.  Senator Robbie Gallagher - The need for the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine to make a statement on the roll-out of a nationwide DNA dog testing trial.  Senator Gareth Scahill - The need for the Minister for Children, Disability and Equality to make a statement on the measures being taken to improve accessibility for people with disabilities in our towns and villages.  Senator Alison Comyn - The need for the Minister for Education and Youth to make a statement on the inclusion of philosophy as a leaving certificate subject.  Senator Sarah O'Reilly - The need for the Minister for Climate, Energy and the Environment to make a statement on the environmental benefits of the deposit return scheme.  The matters raised by the Senators are suitable for discussion. The Cathaoirleach has selected those raised by Senators Kelleher, Harmon, Costello and Ryan and they will be taken now. The other Senators may give notice on another day of the matters they wish to raise. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Gn\u00f3 an tSeanaid - Business of Seanad"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_3","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":false,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_4","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Community Care","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_4","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Kelleher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Kelleher.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Garret-Kelleher.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Kieran O'Donnell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Kieran-O'Donnell.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Kieran-O'Donnell.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Kieran O'Donnell. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Kelleher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Kelleher.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Garret-Kelleher.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Kelleher  Cuirim f\u00e1ilte roimh an Aire St\u00e1it, an Teachta O'Donnell, as ucht teacht isteach maidin inniu chun d\u00e9ile\u00e1il leis an n\u00ed seo, a bhaineann le Westgate Foundation i mBaile an Chollaigh i gCorcaigh. T\u00e1 s\u00e9 riachtanach go nd\u00e9anfar gach aon iarracht na seirbh\u00eds\u00ed iontacha at\u00e1 \u00e1 sol\u00e1thar ag Westgate Foundation a chosaint. Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an Aire St\u00e1it as an obair ar fad at\u00e1 d\u00e9anta aige ar son Westgate Foundation agus as an gcuairt a thug s\u00e9 air i m\u00ed an Mh\u00e1rta chun na seirbh\u00eds\u00ed ar fad a fheiscint agus chun bualadh leis an bhfoireann bainist\u00edochta, chomh maith le lucht bainist\u00edochta HSE.  Mar is eol don Aire St\u00e1it, is f\u00edorth\u00e1bhachtach an rud \u00e9 cinnteacht a thabhairt do Westgate Foundation faoi thodhcha\u00ed na heagra\u00edochta agus seans a thabhairt don fhoireann bainist\u00edochta na seirbh\u00eds\u00ed a fhorbairt i gcomhr\u00e9ir leis na riachtanais at\u00e1 ag dul i m\u00e9id i measc daoine aosta in\u00e1r bpobal i mBaile an Chollaigh agus sna ceantair m\u00f3rthimpeall orainn. Ballincollig is a very special place. It is a thriving and progressive town with a fantastic community spirit, a culture of volunteerism and a strong sense of togetherness and inclusion. At the heart of our community, quietly catering for the needs of our senior citizens, is the Westgate Foundation. Westgate provides invaluable services to our senior citizens and the areas surrounding Ballincollig. These services include a day care programme led by nurses and healthcare assistants, community catering with meals-on-wheels, social activities and transport.  The work done by the team at Westgate Foundation enables older people in our community to stay at home and live independently while maintaining a vital social connection. The services provided give Westgate clients the support they need to maintain and enjoy this independence. Without the provision of these community-based services, there is no doubt that the likelihood of elderly service users requiring home care packages and nursing home support would increase significantly. A majority of service users have considerable health challenges associated with growing old, including dementia, declining mobility, and the adverse impacts of social isolation.  As the Minister of State is aware, Westgate Foundation is reliant on section 39 State funding, administered through the HSE South West, to provide services to senior citizens. It has become increasingly apparent over the past number of years that the funding provided through the service level agreement is no longer sufficient to maintain services at their current levels. This issue has been dealt with at irregular intervals and on an ad hoc basis by the HSE in recent years when it has been recognised that the core funding provided is inadequate and top-up payments of various amounts have been made in an effort to ensure the continuity the services.  As the Minister of State is aware, one of the primary reasons for the increased costs being borne by Westgate Foundation is related to the fact that the organisation had been heavily dependent on the community employment scheme, which is an unsustainable position given that the economy is effectively operating at full employment. It is of a crucial importance that Westgate is given the financial support and certainty from the State that it needs to ensure its future and long-term viability at the heart of the Ballincollig community. The Minister of State will be aware from his recent visit that there are long waiting lists for services. These waiting lists are primarily administered through HSE referrals and public health nurses locally.  That lends further emphasis to the fact that needs are growing and there is increasing demand in the community. Financial certainty is required on a long-term basis to ensure the viability of the organisation. I thank the Minister of State for the support he has given thus far in relation to these challenges. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  Before I call on the Minister of State, I would like to acknowledge Senator Kelleher's parents in the Gallery. It is great to see them here for the Senator's debate. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Kieran O'Donnell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Kieran-O'Donnell.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Kieran-O'Donnell.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Kieran O'Donnell)  I join the Leas-Chathaoirleach in welcoming the Kellehers to the Seanad, which is a beautiful building in its own right.  I thank Senator Kelleher for raising this important matter. He has advocated for Westgate Foundation over a sustained period of time and that has to be acknowledged. I know the work it does is close to his heart. I know first-hand because I visited the Westgate Foundation centre with him. I found it to be warm and engaging and it provides a great service to its community. I thank all the people involved.  It is a key priority for the Government to support older people to remain living independently in their own homes and communities for as long as possible with dignity, choice and appropriate supports. The triangle of supports of home care, day care and meals on wheels services \u2014 including dementia-specific supports \u2014 plays a vital role in helping older people to age well in their own communities. Meals on wheels services provide much more than nutritious meals. They are an invaluable resource in helping older people maintain their health and independence while also addressing social isolation. The services benefit not only those who receive meals, but also their families, who gain reassurance from regular contact and support for their loved ones. Day care services are similarly an essential component of social care provision. They provide opportunities for social engagement, health monitoring and community participation for older people who may otherwise be at risk of isolation and loneliness.  The Government has significantly increased investment in meals on wheels services in recent years. Funding increased from \u20ac3.5 million in 2022 to \u20ac6.25 million in 2025, with a further \u20ac2 million allocated in budget 2026 to support service expansion and maintenance. Nationally, almost 2.94 million meals were delivered in 2025, while funding has been allocated to deliver 3.3 million meals during 2026.  To the Senator's specific point, the HSE advises that Westgate Foundation plays an important role in supporting older people in their communities through the provision of day care and meals on wheels services. From visiting with the Senator, I have seen that at first hand. The organisation currently operates a day care service four days per week, supporting approximately 60 registered users, and a meals on wheels service with 104 registered users.  The HSE has advised that increased funding has been committed to support the organisation. Total funding of over \u20ac520,000 was provided in 2025, while agreed funding for 2026 amounts to almost \u20ac686,000, including core section 39 funding, once-off supports, WRC funding and meals on wheels funding. In addition, Westgate Foundation received \u20ac25,000 under the community capital programme.  The HSE continues to engage closely with the organisation regarding its operational and financial position, staffing arrangements and service delivery needs to older people in the area. I welcome the ongoing engagement between HSE South West and Westgate Foundation and I look forward to the continued provision of these valuable services for older people and their families in the greater Ballincollig area. I understand meetings will take place in the coming days between HSE South West and Westgate Foundation. It is a hugely important service that Westgate Foundation provides. I know how committed the Senator is to advocating on its behalf. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Kelleher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Kelleher.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Garret-Kelleher.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Kelleher  I thank the Minister of State for his response and acknowledge the behind-the-scenes work going on between the HSE management in the south-west region and the management team at Westgate, which is crucial.  I neglected to mention one thing in my initial contribution, of which the Minister of State will be well aware. It was opportune he came down and visited, given he is also a Minister of State in the Department of housing. It is the fact that Westgate provides housing and sheltered housing. I mentioned in my opening remarks that there is a strong voluntary and community spirit. One service user and resident in Westgate is in her 90s and is an active member of Ballincollig Tidy Towns. She is somebody of whom we as a community are very proud. The fact she is in Westgate and able to participate and volunteer at local level speaks volumes about the independence it affords to people.  There is an ongoing conversation in Cork on the development of light rail, the Luas line, with Ballincollig being on the western side of that. A lot of people contacting me locally were lobbying for the extension of the Luas line further west and one of the key reasons was to include Westgate. It is recognised Westgate is at the heart of the community.  I emphasise again the urgency with which this must be dealt with. It is a matter of immediate concern to the management team in Westgate and it is causing stress. We need to deliver certainty and predictability so the future of the organisation can be guaranteed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Kieran O'Donnell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Kieran-O'Donnell.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Kieran-O'Donnell.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Kieran O'Donnell  I again thank the Senator for raising Westgate Foundation in Ballincollig and the work it does on behalf of the community, particularly older people. The Senator referred to housing on-site. It is very much an integrated model. I could see how committed the staff and the board, many of them voluntary, were.  The HSE has confirmed it continues to work closely with the Westgate Foundation regarding its operational and financial position. Meetings have taken place between the HSE and Westgate in relation to organisational and funding requirements, staffing arrangements and service delivery. Further meetings are to take place in the coming days between HSE South West and Westgate Foundation to discuss the situation. The shared objective of the HSE and Westgate Foundation is to ensure high-quality day care and meals on wheels services continue to be available to older people who rely on them, particularly in the greater Ballincollig area. These services make a real difference to the lives of older people, helping them remain connected, supported and independent in their communities.  I welcome the continued engagement between HSE and Westgate Foundation and look forward to seeing these important services maintained and strengthened for the benefit of older people and their families in the greater Ballincollig area. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Community Care"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_5","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"School Accommodation","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_5","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Laura Harmon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Kelleher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Kelleher.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Garret-Kelleher.S.2025-01-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Laura Harmon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Laura Harmon  Cuirim f\u00e1ilte roimh an Aire St\u00e1it, an Teachta Harkin. I want to discuss Col\u00e1iste Daibh\u00e9id in Cork city, which is a fantastic school I had the privilege of visiting recently. Bh\u00ed an-\u00e1thas orm bualadh leis an scoil agus na dalta\u00ed le d\u00e9ana\u00ed, chomh maith leis an bpr\u00edomhoide agus leis an bhfoireann, chun pl\u00e9 a dh\u00e9anamh ar go leor ceisteanna tr\u00ed Ghaeilge. T\u00e1 s\u00fail agam go m\u00f3r go mbeidh muid in ann dul chun cinn a dh\u00e9anamh maidir le foirgneamh nua don scoil. Ta g\u00e9argh\u00e1 leis an bhfoirgneamh nua. Ba mh\u00f3r an t-\u00e1bhar imn\u00ed \u00e9 an t-uisce ag sceitheadh \u00f3n d\u00edon a fheice\u00e1il, chomh maith leis na buic\u00e9id a chuirtear amach chun an uisce a bhaili\u00fa. T\u00e1 s\u00e9 seo ar fad ag tarl\u00fa gar do ch\u00e1bla\u00ed leictreachais. Is ceist sl\u00e1inte agus s\u00e1bh\u00e1ilteachta \u00ed seo. T\u00e1 g\u00e9argh\u00e1 leis an bhfoirgneamh nua seo don scoil.  Will the Minister of State provide an update on what has been done to progress the request for additional school accommodation for Col\u00e1iste Daibh\u00e9id in Cork city and a timeline for the project? The school's preference is option 1B, to ensure a hall, canteen and ASD hub can be provided, while also addressing accessibility, safety and serious roof leak issues. Some 23 leaks have been identified in one part of the school currently, which is worrying, and a lot of them are affecting electricity cables. This is worrying for staff and students. Col\u00e1iste Daibh\u00e9id is a Gaelchol\u00e1iste, ann Irish-medium second level school, which provides the students of Cork city and surrounding areas access to a co-educational, multi-denominational educational opportunity through Irish. The school's patron is the Cork Education and Training Board, CETB. It reaches high standards academically as well as in sport, STEM and stewardship. It has fantastic students and they deserve better.  At present, the school is on the edge of Douglas Street Campus on Sawmill Street. There are two buildings. One is Buckingham House, which dates from the mid-19th century. It is a protected building with a first floor that is only accessible by a stairs. It houses practical subjects, offices and work areas. The second building, known as an t-\u00e1ras, was completed in 2011. It has eight classrooms with toilet facilities. The first floor is accessed by stairs and a lift.  What are the problems? Buckingham House is not fit for purpose for a school. When I visited, I noticed some of the following issues. It cannot be accessed from the road. There are parking issues. There is not enough room for a wheelchair to go around the side of the building. There is no obvious proper entrance. The reception is upstairs. There is no lift access for anyone with mobility issues, buggies or deliveries. The classrooms are an irregular shape and are not the standard classroom size of 49 sq. m. There are inadequate corridor space, uneven floor levels and an unsatisfactory ASD room and it is necessary to go through one classroom to access another. It is cold, with high heating costs and the pipes burst regularly. The woodwork room has no machinery. The home economics room is too small and has no storage area. There is a lack of storage space in general.  What is the school seeking? An application for additional accommodation for the school was first raised in January 2020. Since then, it has been waiting for updates. The latest report was submitted in August 2025 and the school wants the Minister of State's help to move the project to a stage 1B meeting with the Department. The aim would be to move the process to a joint stage 2A and 2B to advance the project at a rapid pace but the preferred building plan option is option 1B.  I would like to hear the Minister of State's response on this. I thank her for attending this morning. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science (Deputy Marian Harkin)  Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an Seanad\u00f3ir Harmon for raising this issue as it gives me the opportunity to update the House on behalf of the Minister for Education and Youth on the current position regarding the planned school building project at Col\u00e1iste Daibh\u00e9id, Cork. As the Senator said, her question is a ceist sl\u00e1inte agus s\u00e1bh\u00e1iblteachta.  An extension project at the school has been approved to enter the Department's pipeline for school building projects under the additional school accommodation, ASA, scheme to provide one multimedia room, one textiles room, one graphics room, one construction room, one technology preparation area, one science laboratory, one science laboratory preparation area and one project store. The feasibility of a physical education, PE, hall or general purpose-dining hall accommodation on the site is also to be explored as part of the design process. This project is devolved to the Cork Education and Training Board, CETB, for delivery.  The stage 1 preliminary design report, outlining the proposed design and costings, has been submitted to the Department and is currently under review. In line with the Department\u2019s infrastructure guidelines, all projects, including this one, are subject to the necessary technical and cost assessments as part of this process. Given the complexity of the evaluation, and the need to ensure full cost compliance and alignment with the national development plan, NDP, this review is necessarily thorough. Once the review is complete, the outcome will be communicated to CETB, which will continue to engage directly with the school authorities to ensure they are kept fully informed of progress.  Although this project is not included in the first tranche of school building projects under the NDP sectoral investment plan, it remains part of the Department\u2019s overall pipeline. A Department-led prioritisation process will continue over the course of 2026 and 2027 to assess and evaluate the progression of individual projects through the design pipeline. The process will involve engagement with key stakeholders and individual schools and will ultimately inform the next tranches of programme roll-out.  The Department-led energy and condition survey of the school estate, which will be finalised later in 2026, will provide an additional evidence base for assessing priorities. A further tranche of projects to progress to tender is expected to be confirmed in 2027. As prioritisation continues, additional projects may be included where justified by urgency and readiness to proceed, and subject to funding. Opportunities for advance enabling works will also be considered for the most urgent and complex projects to support delivery from 2028 onwards.  Do I still have time? The clock is red. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Kelleher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Kelleher.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Garret-Kelleher.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Garret Kelleher)  You still have 30 seconds. It is just counting down. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Marian Harkin  Furthermore, priority projects at earlier stages of the pipeline continue to be advanced - the Senator probably needs to hear that - with particular emphasis on special schools, schools operating entirely in interim accommodation, projects providing significant special education capacity, additional accommodation to meet demographic growth, and schools with the most pressing building condition issues. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Laura Harmon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Laura Harmon  I thank the Minister of State for her response. Will she call for a meeting in person with the school? Could that be facilitated to give the school an update in person? Does she have an idea as to a commitment on the timeline? In order that I have clarity on the timeline, did she say it will be considered in the next tranche in 2026-27 or will it be confirmed in 2028?  I reiterate the value the school brings to Cork in the education it provides. It was a pleasure to meet the principal, Mr. Tadhg \u00d3 Laighin, and the students, recently. I have heard from many parents who are concerned, particularly about the safety issues. I have a serious concern. They need to be addressed without delay because there is an accident waiting to happen with these leaks and the water going onto the electricity cables. It is a matter of utmost urgency. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Marian Harkin  As I said, a further tranche of projects to progress to tender is expected to be confirmed next year. I gave a list of the types of priority projects that will be looked at. They include special schools, schools operating entirely in interim accommodation, projects providing significant special education capacity, additional accommodation to meet demographic growth, and schools with the most pressing building condition issues - that seems to be what the Senator is describing.  Regarding meetings with the Minister, I am not in a position to commit to that.  Obviously, if that is what the Senator is looking for, she can contact the Minister. I will send the Minister a note stating that is what she is looking for. As she and I know, it will be up to her to organise it. I thank her for providing me, on behalf of the Minister, an opportunity to outline the Department's position on the project. The Department remains committed to providing ongoing guidance and practical support in the delivery of this project and will continue to engage closely with patron bodies, management bodies and schools on the progression of projects through the school building pipeline. This includes continued engagement with Col\u00e1iste Daibh\u00e9id and Cork ETB. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"School Accommodation"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_6","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Road Projects","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_6","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Teresa Costello","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Teresa-Costello.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Teresa-Costello.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Teresa Costello","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Teresa-Costello.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Teresa-Costello.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Teresa Costello  I thank the Minister of State for being here today. Over the past few years and during my time as a councillor, there have been many changes to the roads in my area. It led me to ask the Minister to undertake a comprehensive review of the design manual for urban roads and streets, commonly known as DMURS. I appreciate the principles behind DMURS are good ones. We all want safer roads, lower vehicle speeds, where appropriate, better facilities for pedestrians and cyclists, and communities that are more accessible and more sustainable. However, while the policy objectives are commendable, there is increasing concern that the implementation of DMURS in some locations has gone too far and is creating unintended consequences.  These concerns are being raised repeatedly by residents in my area. For example, in Tallaght, Firhouse and Ballyroan, people are telling me that the road and junction narrowing has led to increased congestion, longer journey times and frustration on the part of motorists, while also making it more difficult for buses, delivery vehicles and larger vehicles to navigate safely. They are not isolated complaints. They are concerns that are being expressed consistently by people in my area. On Firhouse Road West, residents have raised concerns during the delivery of active travel measures that the narrowing of junctions creates delays and operational difficulties. The response they got was that the design complied with DMURS, the national guidance, and that the narrowing was intended to reduce speeding without affecting capacity. Independent road safety audits were also carried out. I looked at one particular junction where cars were constantly overshooting white lines. It was very confusing and difficult for motorists.  The proposed removal of village car parking under DMURS creates significant challenges. We have just gone through a Part 8 public consultation process in Tallaght where the Tallaght village on-street car parking is being removed. Many villages have limited on-street car parking already and public transport is not really up to scratch to facilitate people's needs. People rely on convenient parking to support local businesses, residents, older people and visitors. Reducing parking without providing practical alternatives risks harming accessibility, weakens village centres and places unnecessary pressure on local economies.  While I acknowledge the council's position, many local people's lived experience has been different from what has been said about DMURS. We are seeing queues building up at peak times, greater difficulty accessing side roads and a road network that is becoming less efficient for everyone who depends on it. The issue is not whether we should provide safe infrastructure for pedestrians and cyclists; we should. It is not about reversing active travel investment. It is about ensuring that road design is proportionate, flexible and responsive to the needs of each community.  At the moment projects are continuing to be rolled out in Tallaght. It is important that we evaluate what is working well and where adjustments are needed. The time has come for a review of DMURS. We need to examine whether excessive road narrowing is contributing to congestion, the impact on emergency services, buses and commercial traffic, whether local authorities have sufficient flexibility to adapt designs to local conditions and whether post-construction views should become standard practice so that schemes can be amended where genuine problems arise.  I reiterate that the removal of car parking is causing huge difficulty. People are frustrated and annoyed. I am seeing what I would say is a waste of money in some locations. Footpaths have been changed and there are potholes in roads. Something needs to be changed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Marian Harkin  I thank Senator Costello for raising this matter. The Government is committed to preserving our existing roads network. This is demonstrated through the Department of Transport's provision of regular grant funding to eligible local authorities.  By statute, local authorities are responsible for the maintenance and improvement of the regional and local roads present in their respective areas of responsibility. Any work undertaken on these roads is funded by the resources of the local authority concerned and, where eligible, this is supplemented by the Department of Transport's regional and local roads grant programme. The initial selection and prioritisation of work to be funded is a matter for local authorities. Our regional and local roads play a critical role in supporting economic activity and community links. As a result, the regional and local roads grant programme is primarily targeted at the maintenance and renewal of our existing roads network, with the remainder invested in new road projects, the rehabilitation of bridges, climate adaptation and safety improvements. The funds available through this programme have been steadily increasing in recent years. In 2026, \u20ac718 million was made available, which will facilitate an increase of \u20ac26 million for road protection and renewal throughout Ireland.  I come to the core of the issue the Senator raised. The design manual for urban roads and streets, DMURS, was jointly prepared by the Department of Transport and Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage in 2013. It places well-designed streets at the centre of our communities by supporting broader environmental, planning and transport objectives. It promotes highly connected, attractive and safe streets that encourage walking and cycling, support vibrant communities, and use design measures to calm traffic and create a safer, more people-focused environment.  DMURS is a living document and is updated as required. A review of it was undertaken in May 2019, with many chapters amended. In addition to this review, six advice notes have been prepared on various aspects, such as transition zones, materials and specifications, geometric design and quality audits. The most recent advice notes on urban drainage and junction tightening were prepared in 2023. This year, work commenced on a review of all minimum standards, guidelines and regulations that apply to the public transport network where it interacts with the built environment, including DMURS, as part of the national human rights strategy for disabled people.  The Department of Transport has prepared a programme for the review of DMURS - which is what the Senator is talking about - alongside other standards and guidelines that apply to the public transport network where it interacts with associated built environment with regard to accessibility. The first meeting took place in March 2026 and included members of disabled persons' organisations. The Department is in the process of assembling an expert group to co-ordinate and lead the review.  The current programme assumes the publication of a strategic report with recommendations in quarter 2 of 2027. This date is subject to the progress of the review process. Following approval of the national human rights strategy for disabled people review, action 71 of the Sustainable Mobility Policy Action Plan 2026-2030 commits to the review of DMURS by 2030.  From this, it is evident that the DMURS is not a static manual, but is continually updated and informed by road users, interested groups and experts. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Teresa Costello","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Teresa-Costello.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Teresa-Costello.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Teresa Costello  I am a road user. My constituents who are road users do not feel it is being informed by them. There is frustration in the community. There is congestion, roads are being narrowed and buses passing each other are clipping their mirrors. The DMURS is not up to scratch. Money is being wasted unnecessarily. If disability groups are being included, I recommend that somebody who is blind is included as well. I say this because I did a walk around Tallaght with a blind man and the navigation of the roads was not up to scratch.  People are being forced out of their cars with all of this. That is what it feels like, and we are not there yet with transport. We are talking about banning e-scooters, but we do not have the alternatives. We have to respect people\u2019s lived experience, their lives and how they navigate them comfortably and not leave them frustrated and angry over changes I feel are unnecessary a lot of time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Marian Harkin  When the Senator speaks, I know she is reflecting the views of the people she represents and what she hears. The objective of the DMURS is to have well-designed streets accessible to all forms of road users. Furthermore, there is a growing appreciation that our streets are not just spaces designed to facilitate the movement of traffic, but spaces where people should want to live and to spend time. I hear what the Senator is saying about blind people. I will certainly convey the Senator's point to the Minister in this regard to make sure they are included in any ongoing consultation or negotiations.  It is important to say, however, that the DMURS is a living document and there is always the opportunity to respond to changes in transport options, in priorities and in new technologies. Significant funding has been provided by the Department for our regional and local roads each year. This does not mean that I am not hearing what the Senator is saying. I will bring her concerns back to the Minister because sometimes concerns are national, sometimes they are regional and sometimes they are local. Regardless of where they come from, however, they have to be dealt with. I will bring this issue back to the Minister. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Road Projects"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_7","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Bus Services","counts":{"speechCount":10,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_7","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dee Ryan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dee-Ryan.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Dee-Ryan.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Kelleher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Kelleher.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Garret-Kelleher.S.2025-01-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dee Ryan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dee-Ryan.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Dee-Ryan.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Dee Ryan  I thank the Minister of State for coming in to take my question. She is very welcome.  I am standing here to ask her if she can, and I really hope she will be able to, clarify for the people of Limerick what is going on with Limerick BusConnects. To give the Minister of State the background, BusConnects was first mooted more than a decade ago. The public in Limerick, including employers, members of pedestrian and cycling organisations, traders, all the different city centre stakeholders and councillors, would have been consulted on this great vision for public transport in Limerick since about 2020. It was finally unveiled for us in December 2023. We were told originally that this project was going to be delivered in 2025.  I am out on the doors in Limerick every week and frustration with the public transport service in Limerick comes up everywhere and repeatedly. I have parents complaining that they cannot give their teenagers a little bit of freedom and let them off to go somewhere on the bus, so they have to play taxi. I have students genuinely upset that they have to pay for petrol or diesel. We do not have sufficient cycle lanes and routes everywhere across the city, so they have to drive the short distance into the university or into one of our many institutes of learning because they cannot get the bus. Of course, I also have employers speaking to me. I would have been very familiar with the employer perspective in the past in my role as an employer representative. Employers cannot take on people unless they have a car because their particular place of employment is not serviced by public transport. Workers are frustrated that they cannot get to work on a bus. They would like to be saving some money with the cost of living by using public transport. Generally speaking, people feel that they pay taxes, work hard and hold up their end of the bargain, so they want to know why they cannot use public services and avail of a proper bus system in Limerick.  We have had many different and conflicting reports on when BusConnects is going to be delivered. I really hope the Minister of State will be able to bring clarity to this subject today. We were first told it was going to be happening in 2025, then it was going to be in 2026, and more recently we were told it was going to be 2028. I am nearly even afraid to say it out loud but in the last month, I have heard that it could be 2030, which is unthinkable.  Can the Minister of State please tell us what is holding us back and the reason for the delay? Has the local authority completed all the works it needs to do to run the system? Has the city centre transport plan been finalised with the mayor? It has been on his desk and I know his team has been liaising with the National Transport Authority, NTA, for over two years on it. Has the Department funded the project? Has the NTA hired the mechanics and drivers? I ask these questions because this is like the Spider-Man meme. When I start asking questions, all these organisations start pointing at each other and give me all the reasons I outlined as to why BusConnects has not been delivered. Perhaps the Minister of State can clarify the answers to some of those questions for us now. Ultimately, all I want to know is when BusConnects will be operational. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Marian Harkin  I thank the Senator for her question. Let us see what answer I can provide for her. On behalf of the Minister for Transport, I thank Senator Ryan for the opportunity to discuss BusConnects in Limerick. I will also use the opportunity to highlight sustainable mobility developments in Leitrim - I am sorry, I must have been thinking of my own constituency - in Limerick more generally.  The Limerick-Shannon metropolitan area transport strategy was developed by the NTA to deliver an accessible, integrated transport network that enables the sustainable growth of Limerick up to 2040. This includes the development of the Limerick BusConnects programme. Good progress has been made in delivering the strategy, including BusConnects Limerick. In 2023, the NTA carried out an extensive review of the Limerick bus network. This review was conducted in collaboration with Limerick City and County Council, Clare County Council and Bus \u00c9ireann, and was supported by the specialised expertise of transport system designers Jarrett Walker and Associates. Following public consultation, the NTA published its final new bus network for Limerick in December 2023. The redesign of the bus network is one of the nine key elements of BusConnects Limerick that aim to transform the city\u2019s bus system, making public transport more useful to more people. The new bus network will enable more people to avail of public transport, resulting in increased access to a greater number of schools and workplaces across Limerick City. Overall, 41% of residents will live within 400 m of a high-frequency bus route running every 15 minutes or better. Limerick is the first city in Ireland with a fully electrified bus service, with two phases of charger installation works having come on stream at Roxboro bus depot during 2024 and 61 zero-emission buses in active passenger service today.  Regarding future phases of BusConnects Limerick, and the BusConnects programme across the cities more generally, the NTA will publish its detailed national development plan, NDP, implementation plan later this year, which will set out the elements of the programme to be progressed in the coming years within available funding to 2030. This follows on from the publication of the NDP sectoral investment plan by the Department of Transport last November and the publication of the NDP review last July.  In addition to bus-based improvements, the Limerick-Shannon metropolitan area transport strategy also recommends a number of improvements to rail infrastructure, including a new rail station at Moyross. Planning permission for this station was received from Limerick City and County Council in November 2025, with procurement preparation now under way. Other rail interventions include increasing the frequency of services on the Ballybrophy line to up to two trains per hour, double-tracking of the line from Limerick Junction to Colbert Station and the upgrading of Colbert Station, which was successfully completed in November 2024.  The public is now benefiting from these improved facilities, including the new ticket offices, toilets, bus concourse, set-down area and car park. The NDP sectoral plan also allocates funding for the delivery of a number of priority rail projects by 2030 as identified by the rail project prioritisation strategy published last December with the assistance of the European Investment Bank. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dee Ryan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dee-Ryan.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Dee-Ryan.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Dee Ryan  Having heard my account of what is going on the ground in Limerick, the Minister of State will understand why I am really disappointed with that response. The NTA will be publishing an implementation plan by the end of this year. Is she joking me? What in the name of God is going on in the NTA? Clearly, it has no interest in Limerick. It has no interest in delivering the public transport needs we have and serving our needs in Limerick. What happens in there when they are faced with a tough question and asked why they have not done something yet? Do they say they will do another implementation plan? We are sick of plans in Limerick. We want delivery. We are clear on this. The NTA in its response also sounds like it is kind of blaming the Department saying it will engage with the Department on funding this. We have been told separately by the Department that the NTA is fully funded for this. I am not satisfied with that answer. Where do I go? Where do I get the answers to the questions I need? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Marian Harkin  I thank the Senator. I am of course providing the answers given to me by the Department. As we know, the new Limerick bus network will provide more frequent public transport offerings to more people across Limerick. I hear what she is saying. She is talking about now. As with the previous Senator, I will bring her concerns to the Minister. I will let him know how strongly she feels about this and that she is looking for timelines insofar as they can be delivered. What we are looking at here is that aspects of the BusConnects programme include a 70% increase in bus services in Limerick city and suburbs, shorter waits, more direct routes, simpler networks and schedules, additional services at weekends and a 24-hour bus route connecting University Hospital Limerick, the city centre and the University of Limerick. As I said, Limerick is the first city in Ireland with a fully electrified bus service. I hear what the Senator is saying. She is asking when this will be delivered. People are waiting for it, and the Senator does not really want to hear about plans next year or the year after. As she will understand these are all part of the process, but I will ask that----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dee Ryan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dee-Ryan.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Dee-Ryan.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Dee Ryan  It has been a six-year process so far and it sounds like the process is being delayed even further. It is unacceptable. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Marian Harkin  I will not dispute that because I do not have the detail of what the Senator is speaking about. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dee Ryan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dee-Ryan.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Dee-Ryan.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Dee Ryan  I appreciate that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Marian Harkin  I will certainly bring her concerns to the Minister. That is not just something I am saying. I will do that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dee Ryan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dee-Ryan.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Dee-Ryan.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Dee Ryan  I thank the Minister of State. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Kelleher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Kelleher.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Garret-Kelleher.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Garret Kelleher)  Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an Aire St\u00e1it as glacadh leis na tr\u00ed n\u00ed, agus gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an Seanad\u00f3ir Ryan chomh maith. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionra\u00ed ar 10.24 a.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 10.31 a.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Sitting suspended at 10.24 a.m. and resumed at 10.31 a.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Bus Services"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_8","debateType":"orderofBusiness","bill":null,"showAs":"An tOrd Gn\u00f3 - Order of Business","counts":{"speechCount":107,"speakerCount":22},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael McDowell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","memberCode":"Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Manus Boyle","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Manus-Boyle.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Manus-Boyle.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanne Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Lynn Ruane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Lynn-Ruane.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Lynn-Ruane.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alison Comyn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aubrey McCarthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Teresa Costello","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Teresa-Costello.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Teresa-Costello.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Linda Nelson Murray","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Conway","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Conway.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Martin-Conway.S.2011-05-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Margaret Murphy O'Mahony","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paraic Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paraic-Brady.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Paraic-Brady.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Laura Harmon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sarah O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robbie Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gareth Scahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  The Order of Business is No. 1, motion regarding Civil Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2022 (Section 9(2)) (Amount of Financial Contribution) Order 2025 (Revocation) Order 2026, to be taken on the conclusion of the Order of Business without debate; No. 2, motion regarding Planning and Development (Exempted Development (Act of 2000)) Regulations 2026, back from committee, to be taken on conclusion of No. 1 without debate; No. 3, motion regarding Planning and Development (Exempted Development (Act of 2000)) (No. 2) Regulations 2026, back from committee, to be taken on conclusion of No. 2 without debate; No. 4, motion regarding Planning and Development (Exempted Development (Act of 2000)) (No. 3) Regulations 2026, back from committee, to be taken on conclusion of No. 3 without debate; No. 5, motion regarding Planning and Development (Exempted Development (Act of 2000)) (No. 4) Regulations 2026, back from committee, to be taken on conclusion of No. 4 without debate; No. 6, motion regarding Planning and Development (Exempted Development (Act of 2000)) (No. 5) Regulations 2026, back from committee, to be taken on conclusion of No. 5 without debate; No. 7, motion regarding Planning and Development (Exempted Development (Act of 2000)) (No. 6) Regulations 2026, back from committee, to be taken on conclusion of No. 6 without debate; No. 8, motion regarding Planning and Development (Exempted Development (Act of 2000)) (No. 7) Regulations 2026, back from committee, to be taken on conclusion of No. 7 without debate; No. 9, motion regarding Planning and Development (Licensing of Outdoor Events) Regulations 2026, back from committee, to be taken on the conclusion of No. 8 without debate; No. 10, Health (Provision of Contraception Prescribing Service in Retail Pharmacy Businesses) Bill 2026 - All Stages, to be taken at 11.30 a.m. or on the conclusion of No. 9, whichever is later, and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 75 minutes by the putting of one question from the Chair, which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Government, the time allocated to the opening remarks of the Minister at the debate on Second Stage shall not exceed five minutes, all Senators shall not exceed five minutes, and the Minister shall be given no less than five minutes to reply to the debate, with Committee and Remaining Stages to be taken immediately thereafter; and No. 11, Development (Strategic Gas Reserve) Bill 2026 - Committee and Remaining Stages, to be taken at 12.45 p.m. or on the conclusion of No. 10, whichever is the later, and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after two hours by the putting of one question from the Chair, which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Government. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mary Fitzpatrick  This morning's news coverage is dominated by calls from medical professionals for a ban on e-scooters. This follows calls for bans on social media. The Government has moved to ban vapes. We are actively engaged as a country in banning a lot of things at the moment and there is very good reasoning behind a lot of these proposals. However, we have an obligation to examine the deeper causes of the behaviour and understand and attempt to understand the causes of the behaviour. That is something we did at the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Drugs Use. Our report included a recommendation for an Irish primary prevention system, particularly for adolescents. I would appreciate it if we could have a debate early in the autumn term on that proposal for an Irish primary prevention system for our adolescents. It would help inform policy, not just in the drugs space but in all areas of mental health, physical health and our social well-being.  I draw the House's attention to the publication this morning of the Government's latest progress report on housing - Delivering Homes, Building Communities. This report details progress that has been made up to the end of this month. While we are all very conscious of the number of people who are still being accommodated in emergency accommodation and that number remains stubbornly high - we all understand the reasons for that - it is important we engage in the debate on housing in an informed way. We must examine the progress that is being made. There was a record supply delivery in 2025 of more than 36,000 homes. In this year so far, over 7,800 homes have been completed. That is just in the first quarter and it is up 33%. More than 46,000 new homes have commenced. There is a lot of activity in terms of supply.  Affordability is a huge issue for a lot of people but, in the last year, more than 20,000 first-time home purchasers acquired their own home. Close to \u20ac1 billion has been allocated by the Government for more than 7,900 affordable homes. Progress is being made. It is important that we do not lose sight of that progress. Regarding the reusing of vacant properties, more than 13,000 vacant refurbishment grants have been paid out already and more than 3,400 additional homes are in the process of being converted from commercial spaces into residential homes.  Nobody thinks the job is done. We all appreciate that there is continuing pressure and demand for increased supply and affordability, but I encourage every Member of the House to examine the report and to engage in the debate in a constructive way. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael McDowell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","memberCode":"Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Michael McDowell  I note that the whole scheme of the planning Act is that exempt development proposals are considered by the Houses. It is questionable whether this House has really considered the exempt development regulations. Without debate, we sent them off to a committee. We do not know what it made of them but it reported them back to us and, without debate, we are going to adopt them. That is not what the spirit of the Act required.  On behalf of the Seanad Independent Group, I express our collective gratitude to the Leas-Chathaoirleach, the Cathaoirleach, Martin Hughes, Aileen Fallon and all of the staff in the Seanad for the great work they have put into making this House function properly and effectively and in making it a pleasant place to be. I often think of D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann and compare it in my mind to Westminster, which is a bear pit. Then I think of this particular Chamber where people are polite and kind to each other and listen to each other respectfully. There is no baying or shouting down or whatever.  It is a great tribute to the Seanad staff that that spirit continues to exist in this House.  Apart from them, throughout Leinster House there are the ushers, the secretaries, the people manning the committees, the technical staff and the like, the catering staff and the bar staff. All of these people make this Parliament a pleasant and effective Parliament, which operates as a democratic institution of which the Irish people can be proud. I want to express our gratitude to all of them for everything they do. They are not sufficiently thanked but they deserve our thanks.  I will go to what Senator Fitzpatrick mentioned. She mentioned the drugs committee report. I am one of the people who disagrees with the substance of that report. We have to have a real solid debate on it here in this House, not merely a cursory one. It is an issue of fundamental importance. It cannot be avoided, one way or the other. Whatever your views are on it, it needs to be thrashed out. The same applies to the housing crisis, which Senator Fitzpatrick mentioned. Whether we will ever hit the 60,000 target we have set for ourselves is doubtful but at least it has to be said that there is significant production of homes in a period of homelessness.  Finally, we need in this House to have a sincere and realistic debate on immigration, migration and asylum-seeking. All of those issues have to be considered in the autumn. Although coming up to the end of this term we are rushing things through, and the guillotine is well-oiled and slicing this way and that, we have a lot of work to do in the autumn. To prepare ourselves for that work, all the Members of both Houses are entitled to a good break so they can recharge their batteries and address these real issues which the people need to have addressed in this House. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Manus Boyle","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Manus-Boyle.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Manus-Boyle.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Manus Boyle  I will raise an issue about small craft registration in Ireland. The Marine Survey Office is responsible for registering all vessels, from large cargo ships to small pleasure boats. Registration is essential for every ship travelling to ports in and out of the EU and other countries. However, the current system is simply not working for small-craft owners. Many are facing lengthy delays, excessive paperwork and requirements that suit larger commercial ships rather than recreational boats. In some cases, owners are being asked to provide an unbroken chain of ownership going back decades which simply is impossible for older boats.  I know of one young couple who applied to register their vessel and paid the required fee immediately. Four months later, they have still not received a survey or any meaningful communication from the Department. In the end, they had no choice but to register their boat in another EU country so they could continue their plans. They are proud Irish people and wanted to sail under the Irish flag but instead have been forced to fly the flag of another country because of the delays in our system. I also spoke to a number of small-craft owners over the weekend and they told me the same. Registering in Ireland is so difficult many choose to register in other countries, such as Poland, instead.  This simply does not make sense. An Irish boat should be able to be registered effectively in Ireland. I am asking the Minister to be contacted to explain why this situation has arisen and what actions will be taken to introduce a straightforward effective registering system for small craft boats without further delay. It is totally wrong when people save, put their good money into a boat and want to go sailing, yet have to go to another EU country to register the boat. There is something wrong with the Department here and it needs to be shaken up. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  I want to move an amendment to No. 1 on the Order Paper, proposing an orderly winding down of the accommodation recognition payment scheme in a way that is fair and efficient.  I note today is the last day of D\u00e1il and Seanad sittings before the summer recess. I thank the Leader, as Senator McDowell said, for his kindness and work, the Leas-Chathaoirleach for always being so helpful and supportive, and of course all the staff without whom we could not do our work. I acknowledge the work that the staff across the Houses put in. Of course, I wish all the Members well. I hope everybody enjoys the recess. I think everybody will do that.  It is also important to recognise the amount of work we all have ahead of us when we come back in September considering the scale of the problems facing this country. Government will say, \"Look at the positives\", but there are a huge amount of challenges. You need not look any further than the housing crisis. Of course, the Government will point to an increased number of housing developments. However, those housing developments are for the very well-off. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mary Fitzpatrick  That is just not true. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  You just have to look down at the Glass Bottle site. Ordinary people cannot afford those homes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mary Fitzpatrick  You and I both know that they are not the only ones being built. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  It would take the salary of three Senators to be able to afford----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mary Fitzpatrick  If Sinn F\u00e9in did not object to as much housing, we could build more of it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  Senator Andrews without interruption. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  It would take the salary of three Senators to be able to afford a one-bedroom or two-bedroom home on the Glass Bottle site. They are clearly not for ordinary working people. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mary Fitzpatrick  Stop objecting to the housing----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  There are 3,500 homes. Nobody in Sinn F\u00e9in objected to the Glass Bottle site. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mary Fitzpatrick  The Senator's leader has. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  We supported----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mary Fitzpatrick  You have objected to enough housing in Dublin. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  -----the strategic development zone, SDZ. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mary Fitzpatrick  You have objected to enough housing in Dublin. Your leader has made a career out of it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  We supported the development of housing on the Glass Bottle site. We worked hard to ensure to get more social housing. Unfortunately, the Government would not do that. Now it seems that the so-called \"affordable housing\" on the Glass Bottle site will be unaffordable. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mary Fitzpatrick  It is such fake news. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  You also have to look at----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mary Fitzpatrick  You know that your party has made a career out of objecting to housing in Dublin. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  We have supported the Glass Bottle site. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mary Fitzpatrick  Look at O'Devaney Gardens, the first affordable house site delivered in more than 20 years. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  Please. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  We have 18,000----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mary Fitzpatrick  Your own leader objected to it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  Eighteen thousand people are homeless. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mary Fitzpatrick  Your leader has objected. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  Five thousand children are homeless. The Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael Government is responsible----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mary Fitzpatrick  On you. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  -----for the 18,000 people homeless and the 5,000----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mary Fitzpatrick  It is on Sinn F\u00e9in. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  We are not in government. We cannot make the decisions that are required. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mary Fitzpatrick  Yes, but you are weaponising the planning process to block housing delivery. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  We would not rely on the market. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mary Fitzpatrick  You are weaponising the planning process. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  We would not rely on private developers to develop the housing. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  Senators. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  There are 5,000 children homeless and that is on Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mary Fitzpatrick  On Sinn F\u00e9in. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  You can say whatever you want----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  Go raibh maith agat. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  Sorry, a Leas-Chathaoirligh? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  Your time is up, Senator. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  In fairness, I did not get much of my time. I should be given a little more leeway given the constant interruptions. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  I will give you another 30 seconds. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  Thank you. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  Can I confirm with Senator Andrews as well that when he moved the amendment, it is amendment No. 1 that he was talking about? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  Amendment No. 1, yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  It is not an amendment to the Order of Business. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  Item 1. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  It is amendment No. 1 on item 1. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  Can I have a seconder for it? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanne Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joanne Collins  I second the amendment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  Thank you. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  The Government can point to housing and claim that there are huge successes. There is only success for the wealthy, the well-off, the developers and the landlords. They are all delighted with Government policy. When you look at the 18,000 people on the homeless list, the 5,000 children who are homeless, whether the Government likes it or not, it is Government's responsibility. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mary Fitzpatrick  We take responsibility for delivering----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  Sorry, Chair, can you----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  Senator Fitzpatrick. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  Even a few seconds without interruption would be nice. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  You have only five seconds left. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mary Fitzpatrick  You are well over 30 seconds at this point. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  Yes, but I have been interrupted through the 30 seconds. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mary Fitzpatrick  You are well over. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  I have been interrupted through the 30 seconds again. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mary Fitzpatrick  We have heard the speech a couple of times. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  Senator Andrews, I have to bring in so many more. Could you just wrap up, please? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  I know, but if I was not interrupted all the time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  Senator Andrews, you have got well over the time now at this stage. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  I did not get over the time because I was interrupted throughout. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  I gave you an extra 35 seconds. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  In which I was interrupted for most of it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  Senator Andrews, please. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  All I am saying is, \"Good luck to everyone in the summer.\" "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Lynn Ruane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Lynn-Ruane.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Lynn-Ruane.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Lynn Ruane  I join Senator McDowell in thanking all the people we should thank for the efficient and smooth running of these Houses. He ran through them all. Even if we have had a few ding-dongs over rulings on amendments and stuff, other than that, things have moved well, as they always do. I thank the staff across both Houses.  Senator Fitzpatrick mentioned the drugs report. It is important. Ireland is in a unique position. We have had requests to have that report translated into languages like Ukrainian and others, because people are watching the evidence that has been gathered in Ireland over the past five years, especially before the citizens' assembly and by all the working groups. The world is watching how Ireland has done the most extensive interrogation of drugs policy ever seen, and is waiting in hope to see what we do next to make sure that we move with the evidence. It is not just opinion. Some of us obviously have great emotion about the subject or certain opinions, but what is in the report is evidence-based. One of the issues we focused on was obviously section 3 but that is not the only thing in the report. An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na has said several times, unchallenged, that section 3 is rarely used and its use has been going down over the years.  I draw attention to RT\u00c9's report this week on the drug cases in the District Court and the headline that they are up 8% year on year. The chairperson of the board of the Courts Service, Ms Justice Aileen Donnelly, said that the rise in drugs cases of a less serious kind had increased the workload of the lower courts. There were just over 30,000 new drug cases before the District Court last year, compared with 27,000 in 2024, yet the Garda, even on national television, is saying it does not really use this law, whereas all the evidence says differently. We need to be clear that this report lays out the facts and we need to challenge people when they say otherwise.  This House will have roughly 45 days off. Two people a day, on average, die in Ireland from drug-related issues. In the 45 days before we come back and sit in this Chamber, roughly 90 people will be dead while we have been off. That is the gravity of the situation with drugs.  I remember I could barely write when I started studying addiction. I was 16 when I applied for an addiction studies course. They would not let me on it because they said I was too young and it was for adults. I fought and fought. I did not know how to write an essay. I had not engaged in school since I was about 12. I had been a drug user myself. I remember making a video because I could not write an essay. I got my two friends, who at that stage, aged 16, were strung out on heroin and had been on it since we were at school at 13, and I made a video essay, interviewing them. I found a video cassette the other day and hope I can get it put on something. The essay was about why they engaged in drug use so young. I could barely write an essay when I started studying this. There are not many things I will claim some level of expertise in, but this is one where I will claim it. I have been obsessed with it since I was about 16. I look forward to coming back in the new year, and not just for 90 minutes. We need a substantial time to discuss this report, whether three hours, four hours or six hours. I would welcome the largest possible slot to discuss the most extensive research Ireland has ever done into drugs policy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alison Comyn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alison Comyn  I know we are on the cusp of the summer recess but I want to talk about school for a moment. I raise a matter for a future debate or possible Commencement matter with the Minister for education about the inclusion of philosophy as a leaving certificate subject. I have been approached about this issue by Robert Finan, a brilliant Trinity graduate in philosophy from Drogheda who makes the compelling case that the subject is not abstract or elitist, but one with enormous practical value for young people today. At a time when artificial intelligence is transforming how we learn, work and consume information, the ability to think critically and independently evaluate evidence, question assumptions, not follow the herd, and construct reasoned arguments has never been more important. These are life skills, not just academic skills.  I believe this proposal sits naturally within the broader reform of the leaving certificate currently being championed by my colleague Senator Shane Curley. As we reimagine and modernise senior cycle education, we should not only be asking what students need to know, but how they should learn to think for themselves. I hope to bring this forward as a debate or Commencement matter when the House returns in September and I look forward to engaging with the Minister on what I believe is a timely and worthwhile proposal.  I echo the comments made by my colleagues on the cusp of the summer recess. It has been an absolute pleasure to work alongside the Leas-Chathaoirleach, Cathaoirleach, Leader and all my colleagues. Senators mentioned the background staff, including Martin Hughes, the clerks here, and the ushers as well. I especially compliment the staff who work in the background for me, including my assistant, Anna Brennan, who I have many times introduced as my right-hand woman. I would not be able to manage without her. I hope she has a very restful week. The work will go on here. Just because we are not sitting in the Seanad or D\u00e1il does not mean that we are not working for everybody. I wish everybody some time off, but as for the rest of it, the work will continue. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Cathal Byrne  I join colleagues in thanking so many of the staff here who make it possible for us to do our day-to-day work. That includes not only Martin Hughes and the team here in the Seanad, but also the ushers and all those who make the day-to-day life of Leinster House possible, including those who work in the restaurant, the canteen and behind the scenes. The work they do is very much appreciated. It would be remiss of me, as we come to the conclusion of another term, not to join in what many other colleagues and Senators have said about that.  I want to speak about the local democracy task force and the work done over recent months to prepare that report. I join other Senators in urging the Government, including the Minister for local government, to produce the action plan on local democracy and make it a key priority to work on it over the summer so that the hard-working councillors up and down Ireland can have clarity about what exactly the changes will be as they face into another round of local elections, in particular the boundary report and the terms and conditions of that report. Local councillors find it very difficult that they do not know if the area they represent is going to be part of the ground they will be contesting in 2029. For all involved, it is important that we have clarity and certainty about that.  I urge the Minister to take into account the need to rebalance the power of the executive and the power of local members. It is so important at local democracy level that the voice of the people, through their councillors, is heard loud and clear. I urge him to make that a cornerstone of those recommendations when they come available. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aubrey McCarthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Aubrey McCarthy  I briefly mention what my colleague Senator Andrews mentioned about the accommodation recognition payment, ARP, and its proposed reduction for those who are hosting Ukrainians in Ireland. I understand that the Government has difficult decisions to make in this regard, and we must make sure that public money is wisely spent, but we also have to consider the human consequences of this. I notice in the last number of months, at our homeless caf\u00e9 on Pearse Street, a number of Ukrainians are turning up and that number is starting to increase. The Irish Red Cross warned today that many of the families who are hosting Ukrainians in Ireland will no longer host when the ARP has been wound down.  I am speaking from personal experience. When the war broke out, I took Ukrainians into the organisation, Tiglin. I have travelled to Ukraine and seen first-hand the resilience and dignity of the people. Many of the people I hosted are from Mariupol and have nothing to go back to. They are not just people receiving support but people who have become part of the community here. We should never forget why they came here in the first place. They did not leave their homes by choice. They fled bombs, violence and a loss of everything that they knew as home.  As we review the supports, I agree with Senator Andrews that it has to be fair. I ask that we do so with wisdom and compassion. Let us make the decisions that are financially responsible for the Irish but also recognise the enormous situation the Ukrainians are in.  I hope the Minister will carefully consider the concerns raised by the Irish Red Cross.  Just as I was coming in this morning, standing on the lawn at the Merrion side of Leinster House it is hard to ignore the ragwort that is growing on the grass. Under the Noxious Weeds Act 1936, ragwort is a noxious weed. Landowners have a legal duty to prevent its growth, as do councils, etc., and failure to do so can result of a fine of up to \u20ac1,000. This is the House that makes the laws. There is an argument that ragwort should not be illegal and then that would be fine. However, we cannot ask farmer councils and ordinary people to uphold the law if we do not do it ourselves. We are the ones who make the law. Either we change the law or we uphold it; we should not be seen to tolerate it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  I am trying to keep people to time because there are a lot of people to bring in and we are under pressure of time. I call Senator Costello. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Teresa Costello","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Teresa-Costello.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Teresa-Costello.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Teresa Costello  I was taken by what Senator Ruane said. It is not often I have heard her compliment herself but everybody in Tallaght is so proud of her. She has achieved so much and she has huge respect in Tallaght.  I also want to comment on what Senator Andrews said. I think people are bored of the whole \"Government let you down\" thing. A lot of my constituents, when they get that response from Sinn F\u00e9in, just come to me to get stuff sorted out. It is boring now at this point. I am going to buy the Senator a present. It is a book called The Secret. It is about positive thinking and all that. It is really good for the health.  Today, I raise the growing problem of the misuse of nitrous oxide and the serious impact it is having in my community. I am not the first to raise this and I will not be the last but I am constantly receiving reports - one as recently as this morning - about the huge number of dumped nitrous oxide canisters in the community. If there is a car park that does not have a gate on it is left full of these. I have had to clear up car parks with people. It is not just an environmental issue. It is clear to see from the huge quantities of these canisters that recreational use is becoming more widespread in public places. What concerns me most is not the litter, because litter can be fixed; it is the health implications that cannot be undone. A recent study by the RCSI in Beaumont Hospital found a significant increase in cases of young people suffering spinal cord damage linked to nitrous oxide use. The neurological issues can be helped but nobody is making a full recovery on this and that is really concerning. It is also a huge issue with road safety. People are going around with balloons hanging off their lips. I want to know what powers An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na has to deal with this. If members of the Garda see someone who is found driving while under the influence of nitrous oxide or are consuming it behind the wheel, are there sufficient drug driving laws or are there gaps that need to be addressed? The Minister will have to come in on this because it is a public health issue, an environmental issue but also a road safety issue. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Linda Nelson Murray","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Linda Nelson Murray  The Irish Cancer Society is in the news today. We met its representatives last week and had a very good engagement over in Buswells Hotel where they were giving us some numbers. I wanted to home in on bowel cancer. There are 2,500 people diagnosed with bowel cancer each year in Ireland. The target for the Irish Cancer Society is that not one patient should wait more than 28 days. Last year, in Our Lady's Hospital Navan, over the whole year 400 people waited more than 28 days. However, in quarter 1 of this year, not one patient waited more than 28 days in Navan hospital for an urgent colonoscopy. I commend the manager, the staff and everybody in the hospital on that. We are very proud of our hospital in Navan. When I saw the numbers it got me thinking about the rapidly growing population in County Meath. Navan hospital always needs to be strengthened, not sidelined. We need investment in that to grow with the population that is growing in Meath, and that Meath people have a hospital that grows with their needs and does not fall behind. I am discussing this with the Minister for Health, Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill. I think every political person who comes from Meath will always want to push for Navan hospital to be continually invested in. I acknowledge the great work the hospital has done when it comes to colonoscopies in the first quarter of this year. I wish the hospital well in its ongoing work in that space and we must ensure we continue the investment in that hospital.  In my last 25 seconds, I say to everyone in this room as we go into recess today that it has been an absolute pleasure to work with them. We have had amazing debates in here from all sides of the Chamber. Everybody, without a shadow of a doubt, is a pleasure to work with. We can achieve things together whether we are in opposition or in government. I thank everybody. It is really nice to come in to the Chamber and I look forward to it every Tuesday. I wish everyone a very nice summer. I hope they drop loads of leaflets, go out to their constituents, talk to them all and fill the air with loads of positivity. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanne Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joanne Collins  I will break the Internet today by not giving out for the first time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  Is that so? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanne Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joanne Collins  Yes, I am not going to give out. Regardless of what is said to me I am going to be nice today on our last day. I echo what is being said about everybody enjoying their break and the thanks to all the staff in here. It can be very daunting when you first come in but everybody makes you feel like you can do it. It is great to work here. I am going to end by wishing the Limerick hurlers the best of luck on Sunday. I am proposing that everybody in Limerick gets a day off on Monday because there will be mighty celebrations. It is probably too late to bring this up - I should have brought this up about a month ago when I knew we were going to be in the final - but it would be nice to see, maybe for the next one, extra buses and train times being put on. I know it was done for the Kerry games but Kerry seems to take precedence when it comes to transport for some reason. They think they are better than Limerick. I wish the two teams the best of luck, but we are going to enjoy our celebrations on Sunday. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  Before I call Senator Martin Conway, I welcome Leryn Stephenson to the Public Gallery. She is a guest of Senator Conway and is visiting from Texas in the United States of America. I hope she enjoys her visit her today. It is lovely to see her. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Conway","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Conway.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Martin-Conway.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Martin Conway  I too would like to welcome Leryn to Seanad \u00c9ireann. It is a very special trip back to Ireland for her and I hope she enjoys her time here. I also echo the good wishes and the thanks to Martin and all his team who make life so much easier for us here, and I hope all colleagues across the House have an enjoyable summer. They can all come to County Clare on their holidays. We have many beautiful spots that they can visit starting with Lahinch and the Cliffs of Moher. There is lots to do in Clare and I hope I see many of them down there over the next few weeks.  When the Leader returns in September, I ask for two quick debates. The first is on the protocols the Department of agriculture uses in culling animals on-site in farms. We need to have a discussion and a conversation on the protocols because they could certainly be improved. I have come across a number of examples lately that are quite distressing. I have to do further research but if the information that has been brought to my attention is correct, it is very distressing. I also seek a further debate on tourism. We have the Walker Cup coming to Lahinch in September and people are very excited about. We also have the Irish Open in Doonbeg this year. Those big tourism events, coupled with the Ryder Cup that is coming to Adare next year, are bringing fantastic revenue and excitement. We need more of these type of events. Any investment the Government makes in big-ball tourism sporting events is well worthwhile, not just because of the revenue generated but also the international coverage we get.  Finally, I commend Cara Darmody, someone the Leader knows very well, who is at the gates of Leinster House doing her two-day protest. I think it is her second in the last year. I commend her on what she has achieved through her advocacy and her campaigning and what she will achieve. I know the Leader would agree with me on that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Margaret Murphy O'Mahony","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Margaret Murphy O'Mahony  I wish to raise awareness of two cards that people who have a lot going on in their lives use. The first one is called a \"No Wait\" card and it is used by people who need access to a toilet, often very often, but always very quickly. They show this card to business so that they can get access to toilets. It is often used if there is a queue for a loo that they are allowed go ahead. It is not given lightly. It is there for a reason. It is something that is not spoken about a lot.  It is a pity because it is obviously a bodily function and these people need to go when they need to go. I ask businesses to respect this card and work with the people using them.  The next card is the \u201cJust a Minute\u201d card and is used by people with hidden disabilities who may need just a minute longer than other people to get their stuff together or maybe realise what they are being asked. It is particularly used in banks, post offices and shops and means the person does not have to say they do not understand. They can just show the card so that the staff member can see they need a little bit of extra time to process what is going on.  As we head into recess I, too, thank everybody \u2013 Members and staff. It has been a pleasure doing business with them. I hope everyone has a good summer, do not work too hard and stay safe. Be kind and be positive. I look forward to working with everyone again in September. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paraic Brady","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paraic-Brady.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Paraic-Brady.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Paraic Brady  I wish to discuss a case that is ongoing all over social media where animals were euthanised on a farm in Roscommon and in County Clare last week. Forget about the rights and wrongs or who is right and who is wrong. The manner in which the animals were euthanised is where I see a problem. I call on the Minister for agriculture to strengthen the regulations around euthanising these animals. There have to be stronger regulations. It was overseen by the Department even though the Department did not carry out the euthanising of the animals. I am very passionate about how animals are treated, as everybody in this House knows, and I would never like to see any animals mistreated. There is an ongoing case of animal cruelty but we need to see stronger regulation around how animals are euthanised.  I wish everyone in this House an enjoyable summer. It is probably the first time I can say all the work is done before we actually go home. With the weather, the turf is home, the hay is done the silage is made and the feet are up. We are surely going to enjoy the summer. I wish all the teams in the hurling and football the very best. I personally would like to see Mayo bring home the Sam Maguire, as would everybody else because I do feel their time has come - let us hope Mike Kennelly is not here \u2013 and let us hope it does go west. If it does go west, it will be full of people from all over Ireland. It has been long enough and maybe this is their time. Maybe the bad luck is gone after all. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alice-Mary Higgins  I want to raise a couple of points on the Order of Business and the guillotining of the LNG Bill. This is a really significant shift away from Ireland, which previously had a track record where we have a ban on fracking. It was introduced by a Fine Gael backbencher back in a good time when backbenchers from Government parties were able to bring legislation forward and have it become law, which is something which should happen again. It is a very significant measure. It is one we had very detailed scrutiny of in the committee. There is a lot to be discussed here. It should not be guillotined. It is an important thing. I do not think you can get it right but it is one where harm reduction is really important in relation to this legislation and it should not be guillotined.  I also raise a concern that we have eight sets of regulations added to the Order Paper. I do not blame the Seanad Office or the Leader, indeed, for the lateness of their being added. That sits squarely with the Department responsible for planning and development, which has an extraordinary record - I checked back on it \u2013 where ten of 11 planning and development Bills in the last decade were brought in the last week of July or the last week of December. It seems like it has a systematic departmental policy of bringing significant decisions through at the last minute. That is something that needs to be addressed. It is a direct pattern. I have looked back. It is always guillotining something through in the last week of July. That is not acceptable practice because planning is part of the democratic structure, the decisions we make about how we want to live together, and it needs proper attention and scrutiny whether you agree or disagree with each of these exemptions. I regret that it is coming so late but also, when we are getting these last-minute measures, the regulations should be circulated. I know they are there to access, but when we are getting these for last-minute decision, that would be a useful measure.  Finally, I commend SIPTU----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  Go raibh maith agat. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alice-Mary Higgins  Just a comment. We are coming back in September. The assessment of needs piece has been highlighted by Cara Darmody and the school transport issues have been raised, but childcare is also really important. I signal that SIPTU has produced a really important paper and I was very happy to host its launch. It looks at a roadmap to affordable early years care and sets out really practical steps for how we deliver affordability early and quality employment that ends that situation of the revolving door in our childcare services, which I am sure every Member is familiar with. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Laura Harmon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Laura Harmon  I am speaking again about the issue of Bessborough in Cork city and to call once again on the Taoiseach to act on this. There is still time to do the right thing and to have a negotiation process with the developer now or, failing that, to look at compulsory purchase of this site.  The burial records have been sealed in relation to this. There is an opportunity to legislate and publish these records. The Attorney General could instruct an inquest in relation to this site too. There will be a march on Saturday in Cork city which meets at 2.30 p.m. outside the library. We hope to see cross-party support at this.  I will take the opportunity to read a random selection of names of people who died at Bessborough to put them into the record. Christina Lehane was born 22 December 1938. She died on 29 March 1939. She was three months old. Her cause of death was recorded as \u201ccongenital debilities\u201d. For many of those babies who died at Bessborough, the reason given for their death was congenital debility or marasmus, which was essentially starvation. The reason given for these babies\u2019 deaths was often very vague. Kathleen Collins died on 27 August 1926, Bernadette Gould died on 7 August 1943, Thomas Higgins died on 19 July 1977, Patrick O\u2019Donnell died on 10 December 1967, and Paula McCarthy died on 28 January 1990.  I wanted to read a selection of the names into the record but we know 923 babies died at Bessborough. Many women are missing also. If over 800 babies were missing in Ireland now, there would be a national search and a global outcry. We need the truth about this site. We cannot concrete over the past. I encourage the Taoiseach to meet all survivor groups. I know he has met a selection of them but he had not met the Bessborough Mother and Baby Home Support Group which represents over 700 people. It has made several requests to meet the Taoiseach and I feel he needs to meet everyone. We cannot pit different survivor groups against each other. All their voices are important. The Taoiseach needs to engage with all of them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alice-Mary Higgins  Hear, hear. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sarah O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Sarah O'Reilly  Hear, hear. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  Before I move on to the next speaker, I welcome the Shandon Retired Group who are guests of Deputy Marie Sherlock.  We also have guests from Grangecon. There is a very special man in the Gallery who is seven years of age today. Happy birthday Ben and enjoy your visit to Leinster House today. They are guests of Deputy Timmins. They are all very welcome and I hope they enjoy their visit. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sarah O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Sarah O'Reilly  I support Senator Harmon in everything she has said. I want to raise the ongoing crisis in assessments of need and the impact this is having on families in Cavan and Monaghan. Earlier this year, I was helping a mother whose young son had been offered a place in an early intervention preschool. She should have been delighted but instead she was under huge pressure because to take up the place she needed an assessment of need. We contacted the HSE and I followed up again and again but we received the same template over and over as a reply. He was on a waiting list with no indication of when he would be seen and no recognition of the fact that every week matters to a family who is really desperate.  At the end of March there were more than 21,000 children waiting longer than the legal six-month deadline for an assessment of need. In Cavan and Monaghan alone there are 578 overdue assessments. I commend Cara Darmody on continuing to shine a light on this issue. She is absolutely right when she says children are missing the window for early intervention. We all know that the earlier a child gets support, the better the outcome. These early years are precious. Once they are gone there is no getting them back. Many parents simply cannot wait any longer. They take out loans, borrow from family and empty their savings to pay privately for assessments. This should never happen.  If the HSE cannot provide an assessment within the legal timeframe, then the State should meet the cost of a private assessment. The parent I spoke about got an assessment within two weeks when she went private and it cost \u20ac1,800. Parents should not have to pay out of their own pocket because the State has failed to meet its own legal obligations. Disability teams continue to be short-staffed while many newly qualified therapists and psychologists cannot get the supervised placements and recognised experience they need to practise. This is one issue the Government could address. All families want is for their children to get the support they need when they need it and not years after the opportunity for early intervention has gone. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robbie Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Robbie Gallagher  I want to raise an issue that I feel is having a very detrimental and suffocating effect on rural Ireland. This is the declining number of taxis available. It is so bad now that it is causing an economic bottleneck and, in my opinion, is also acting as a social barrier. The figures from the NTA released last May paint a very bleak picture in that 20 counties are seeing a decline in taxi numbers. This is despite the fact that over the past ten years our population has increased by more than 8%. The Border region is particularly badly affected, with taxi numbers down a staggering 20%. My county of Monaghan has seen a decline of 31.29%, which is the worst in all of Ireland. Cavan has seen a drop of 19%, Donegal has seen a drop of 21% and Louth has seen a drop of 16% or 17%. This clearly shows we have a serious problem in this regard.  This is killing the night-time economy especially. People would like to go out and socialise, which we would like to see, and go out for a bite to eat or a few drinks or whatever. It is important that we encourage this type of behaviour. The reality for many people thinking about going into the town or the village this evening is that they would have no way home so they make the decision not to go out at all. This is not what we want to see in rural Ireland. I call on the NTA to address this particular issue because it is affecting the people of rural Ireland very much. We cannot allow this decline to continue in our rural counties. I call on the NTA to address this matter urgently.  I join others in thanking all of the staff in the campus of Leinster House for their hospitality and the manner in which they look after us all year in, year out. I say to all of my colleagues in the Chamber that I enjoy their company, perhaps not all of the time but most of the time I am glad to say. I wish them all a very enjoyable rest during the summer period. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  There was a lot of negativity in that. We are only allowed the positive today. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robbie Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Robbie Gallagher  The sun is shining. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gareth Scahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Gareth Scahill  Can we reset the clock? I will start by mentioning the \"parents notify\" portal on the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, website for special classes and special places, which has a deadline of 1 September. The whole principle of the early notification this year is to determine demand, plan ahead and provide the special class places and special classes for 2027-28. To clarify for people, the portal is open 12 months of the year but the deadline is to allow the NCSE to plan and prepare a budget. The additional documentation has an extended deadline of 15 September but the documentation will be taken at a much later stage if necessary. The important thing is that people who need the places get on the portal now and identify the demand that is there.  Before we finish up I call for a debate on home care services when we come back in September. We all know the value of carers in our society but an awful lot of the HSE support service staff going into houses are private agency staff and when the person they are looking after goes into hospital or into respite the support they are getting immediately stops. This affects their availability because the staff will not be paid should the person come out of care again. Family carers and people getting the carer's allowance have a 13-week extension, whereby they continue to receive the carer's allowance for 13 weeks after somebody goes in. This is something we need to look at, especially in rural areas where we need to retain the expertise of people who are desperately needed to look after people and extend their time in their own homes.  Like previous speakers, the Leas-Chathaoirleach might allow me to thank the staff of the House, including the ushers and all the catering staff and, reluctantly, all of my colleagues in the House. We do not always get on or agree but there is great respect in the House. I extend a wish for happy holidays to everybody and thank them for the past couple of months. I thank all of the staff. To clarify what Senator Brady said, the work does not stop here and we are not finished for the summer. He may have given that impression but I think he was talking about the fact he had the hay done and the turf home. The real work starts now. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Nessa Cosgrove  All of us were probably at the IFA briefing yesterday. When they gave us the briefing document I saw that it was exactly the same as the one last year and I wondered whether it had got anything it looked for. I was told not really, apart perhaps with regard to areas of natural constraint. I would like a debate on these, which affect farmers where I live. Is there any possibility we could have debate on this? As we all know, farming is different in different areas of the country. The areas of natural constraint payment was taken away in 2008 and we are wondering whether it could be restored to that level. Generational renewal is another area that was also raised. It is difficult, particularly for the farmers I met yesterday from Sligo and Leitrim, who are not full-time farmers. They work part time because we do not all have land like there is in the Golden Vale down in Cork. Could we have a specific discussion or debate on farming in various areas in the country? I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach for fitting me in and I wish everyone the best for the summer. The work is only starting now. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mary Fitzpatrick  I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach for her forbearance and patience with us. I thank Martin and all of the staff of the Seanad Office on behalf of the Fianna F\u00e1il group. It is a tremendous personal honour and privilege for me to serve with all of the Senators. We only operate to our best because of the support we are given by the staff of the Houses and we are eternally grateful. Enjoy your break from us and we will be back with a vengeance in September. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  I am very conscious that No. 10 is to be taken at 11.30 a.m. and it is now 11.30 a.m. I will be brief.  I will make a note of any contributions relating to debates for when we come back in September. There were a lot of calls for debates. I will make sure there is a significant amount of time for a debate about drugs, in particular, because it is an important piece of legislation. To anyone who has called for a debate, I hope we will have opportunities when we come back in September. I will record those requests and try to facilitate them as much as psosible.  Unfortunately, I cannot accept the amendment proposed by Senator Andrews. The Order of Business has been lined out and I cannot accept it. I understand Senator Higgins's point about planning and the Department of housing. We have been here for a number of years and she is correct; a lot of it has come through in July. Technically, it is for the Leader to set out the timeline of debates but I understand the frustration when it comes late or when there is little scope for debate. The motions, in fairness, were referred to committee for debate. It is not like they just arrived this morning, but I accept exactly what Senator Higgins said.  Like everyone else, I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach, Aileen, Martin and all the staff in the Seanad. They have done incredible work over the past number of months. There has been a lot of legislation coming though the House, particularly in the past month. They have put a lot of work in. I wish them and their families all the best over the summer. We will have a busy time coming back in September with an expected by-election to this House, which will create more work for them.  To all colleagues across the House, on a personal level, I thank them for the last number of weeks since I took over as Leader of the Seanad. It has been a busy number of weeks for all of us. I wish them, their families and their staff, who have put in incredible work, a happy summer.  We spoke about positivity. If you just talk about soccer to Senator Andrews, the positivity comes out naturally straight away. That is my strategy with him every time and it seems to work. There is positivity there; you just need to find it in people. I say that half-jokingly. I wish everyone a happy summer. I am looking forward to coming back in September to work on important stuff, as people outlined in their contributions, which we can get stuck into when we come back. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  On a personal note, I too would like to thank everyone for their collegiality over the last 12 months. I thank Aileen, Martin, the staff in the Seanad Office, the ushers and all the staff in the House from the cleaners up. This House would not function without every member of staff within it. I wish Members a happy break. As has been said, many of them will be working in their areas but everybody deserves a break. I look forward to working with them all in September. I thank the Leader, Deputy Leader and Cathaoirleach for their help and support. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"An tOrd Gn\u00f3 - Order of Business"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_12","debateType":"motion","bill":null,"showAs":"Civil Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2022 (Section 9(2)) (Amount of Financial Contribution) Order 2025 (Revocation) Order 2026: Motion","counts":{"speechCount":3,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_12","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanne Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  I move:  That Seanad \u00c9ireann approves the following Order in draft:  Civil Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2022 (Section 9(2)) (Amount of Financial Contribution) Order 2025 (Revocation) Order 2026,  a copy of which was laid in draft form before Seanad \u00c9ireann on 2nd July, 2026.\u201d "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  I move amendment No. 1:  1. To delete all words after \u201cThat Seanad \u00c9ireann approves the following Order in draft:\u201d and substitute the following:  \u201cCivil Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2022 (Section 9(2)) (Amount of Financial Contribution) Order 2025 (Revocation) Order 2026, a copy of which was laid in draft form before Seanad \u00c9ireann on 2nd July, 2026, and further calls on the Government to provide that the Accommodation Recognition Payment (ARP) Scheme shall apply only to:  - existing recipients with respect to the beneficiaries of temporary protection currently benefitting from the scheme where those beneficiaries of temporary protection have satisfied a means test similar to those applicable for other housing assistance payments;  - new applicants who propose to host a beneficiary of temporary protection in their property which is also their own primary residence and who have not availed of the Rent-a-Room Scheme in the previous 24 months; ensuring that the ARP does not further distort the rental sector; and  - recipients who are not in receipt of any additional or \u2018top-up\u2019 payments from a beneficiary of temporary protection.\u201d "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanne Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joanne Collins  I second the amendment. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Motion agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Civil Law (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2022 (Section 9(2)) (Amount of Financial Contribution) Order 2025 (Revocation) Order 2026: Motion"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_16","debateType":"motion","bill":null,"showAs":"Planning and Development (Exempted Development (Act of 2000)) Regulations 2026: Motion","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_16","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  I move:  That Seanad \u00c9ireann approves the following Regulations in draft:  Planning and Development (Exempted Development (Act of 2000)) Regulations 2026,  a copy of which was laid in draft form before Seanad \u00c9ireann on 2nd July, 2026.\u201d "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and declared carried."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Planning and Development (Exempted Development (Act of 2000)) Regulations 2026: Motion"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_17","debateType":"motion","bill":null,"showAs":"Planning and Development (Exempted Development (Act of 2000)) (No.2) Regulations 2026: Motion","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_17","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  I move:  That Seanad \u00c9ireann approves the following Regulations in draft:  Planning and Development (Exempted Development (Act of 2000)) (No.2) Regulations 2026,  a copy of which was laid in draft form before Seanad \u00c9ireann on 2nd July, 2026.\u201d "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Planning and Development (Exempted Development (Act of 2000)) (No.2) Regulations 2026: Motion"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_18","debateType":"motion","bill":null,"showAs":"Planning and Development (Exempted Development (Act of 2000)) (No.3) Regulations 2026: Motion","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_18","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  I move:  That Seanad \u00c9ireann approves the following Regulations in draft:  Planning and Development (Exempted Development (Act of 2000)) (No.3) Regulations 2026,  a copy of which was laid in draft form before Seanad \u00c9ireann on 14th July, 2026.\u201d "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Planning and Development (Exempted Development (Act of 2000)) (No.3) Regulations 2026: Motion"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_19","debateType":"motion","bill":null,"showAs":"Planning and Development (Exempted Development (Act of 2000)) (No.4) Regulations 2026: Motion","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_19","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  I move:  That Seanad \u00c9ireann approves the following Regulations in draft:  Planning and Development (Exempted Development (Act of 2000)) (No.4) Regulations 2026,  a copy of which was laid in draft form before Seanad \u00c9ireann on 2nd July, 2026.\u201d "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Planning and Development (Exempted Development (Act of 2000)) (No.4) Regulations 2026: Motion"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_20","debateType":"motion","bill":null,"showAs":"Planning and Development (Exempted Development (Act of 2000)) (No.5) Regulations 2026: Motion","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_20","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  I move:  That Seanad \u00c9ireann approves the following Regulations in draft:  Planning and Development (Exempted Development (Act of 2000)) (No.5) Regulations 2026,  a copy of which was laid in draft form before Seanad \u00c9ireann on 2nd July, 2026.\u201d "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Planning and Development (Exempted Development (Act of 2000)) (No.5) Regulations 2026: Motion"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_21","debateType":"motion","bill":null,"showAs":"Planning and Development (Exempted Development (Act of 2000)) (No.6) Regulations 2026: Motion","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_21","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  I move:  That Seanad \u00c9ireann approves the following Regulations in draft:  Planning and Development (Exempted Development (Act of 2000)) (No.6) Regulations 2026,  a copy of which was laid in draft form before Seanad \u00c9ireann on 2nd July, 2026.\u201d "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Planning and Development (Exempted Development (Act of 2000)) (No.6) Regulations 2026: Motion"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_22","debateType":"motion","bill":null,"showAs":"Planning and Development (Exempted Development (Act of 2000)) (No.7) Regulations 2026: Motion","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_22","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  I move:  That Seanad \u00c9ireann approves the following Regulations in draft:  Planning and Development (Exempted Development (Act of 2000)) (No.7) Regulations 2026,  a copy of which was laid in draft form before Seanad \u00c9ireann on 2nd July, 2026.\u201d "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Planning and Development (Exempted Development (Act of 2000)) (No.7) Regulations 2026: Motion"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_23","debateType":"motion","bill":null,"showAs":"Planning and Development (Licensing of Outdoor Events) Regulations 2026: Motion","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_23","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  I move:  That Seanad \u00c9ireann approves the following Regulations in draft:  Planning and Development (Licensing of Outdoor Events) Regulations 2026,  a copy of which was laid in draft form before Seanad \u00c9ireann on 2nd July, 2026.\u201d "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Planning and Development (Licensing of Outdoor Events) Regulations 2026: Motion"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_24","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Gn\u00f3 an tSeanaid - Business of Seanad","counts":{"speechCount":3,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_24","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I understand the Leader has a proposal for the House. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  I propose that notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders or the order of the House today, that No. 10 be taken at 12.25 p.m. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Is that agreed? Agreed. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionra\u00ed ar 12.06 p.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 12.29 p.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Sitting suspended at 12.06 p.m. and resumed at 12.29 p.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Gn\u00f3 an tSeanaid - Business of Seanad"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_25","debateType":"debate","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/74","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/74\/seanad\/2","houseCode":"seanad","stage":"2","isBillStage":true,"showAs":"Health (Provision of Contraception Prescribing Service in Retail Pharmacy Businesses) Bill 2026: Second and Subsequent Stages (Seanad)"}},"showAs":"Health (Provision of Contraception Prescribing Service in Retail Pharmacy Businesses) Bill 2026: Second and Subsequent Stages","counts":{"speechCount":21,"speakerCount":7},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_25","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Teresa Costello","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Teresa-Costello.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Teresa-Costello.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pauline Tully","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patricia Stephenson","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Laura Harmon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question proposed: \"That the Bill be now read a Second Time.\""},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I welcome guests of Deputy George Lawlor from Women's Shed New Ross. You are most welcome to Seanad \u00c9ireann.  I thank the Minister for coming to the House. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Health (Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill)  I am pleased to introduce the Health (Provision of Contraception Prescribing Service in Retail Pharmacy Businesses) Bill 2026 to the Seanad. The Bill proposes to include pharmacists as prescribers of contraception in clearly defined clinical circumstances, in addition to their existing role in dispensing. It will also ensure that the service will be available free of charge under the free contraception scheme. It is a big expansion of what we have been trying to do for women. The plans for this were published in 2025. We had a comprehensive engagement with stakeholders and pharmacy sector representatives. To enable pharmacy prescription, the Bill needs to amend the Health Act 1970, the Irish Medicines Board Act 1995 and the Pharmacy Act 2007.  The service will involve the prescription of short-acting contraception, such as the contraceptive pill, the patch and the ring, by pharmacists, who already supply emergency contraception. The service will be free of charge to women aged 17 to 35, who are covered by the free contraception scheme.  It will also be available to private patients with the fees for this service determined locally by the pharmacy. It is almost certainly going to be less costly and more convenient than returning to a GP for every prescription. People would have to go to the GP in the first instance for the first prescription, but thereafter for the next four and a half years they can go back to the pharmacy and get the prescription renewed there. It is likely to be cheaper for those private patients and much more convenient.  The clinical basis for pharmacies prescribing is provided for in the Health (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2024 and similar to the common conditions service, regulations for this service are going to have to be published after the Bill is enacted. The Bill and the secondary legislation, training and clinical protocols that will follow it will support the terms and conditions for this service, as laid out in the community pharmacy agreement.  I will take Senators through the provisions of the Bill. Section 1 amends the definition of \"scheme provider\", previously limited to medical practitioners, for the provision of prescriptions. The Bill expands the definition to include retail pharmacy businesses entering into an agreement with the HSE for the provision of primary prescription services to women. It will be provided by a registered pharmacist in accordance with the relevant pharmacy legislation, including this Bill. Section 2 of the Bill makes various amendments to the Irish Medicines Board Act and the Pharmacy Act. Those amendments ensure that whole legislative framework is cross-referenced correctly. Section 4, the final section, provides the Short Title for the commencement of the Bill. Sections 1 to 3, along with the clinical statutory instruments to be drafted, align the relevant Acts to accurately define the new service. The sections also provide for clinical protocols, rules, codes of conduct and training provisions for pharmacists who would like to provide the new service, and I hope they will be many.  I would also like to note that I introduced amendments in the D\u00e1il to remove the term \"medical devices\" from the Bill. That followed confirmation from the Pharmaceutical Society of Ireland and the Health Products Regulatory Authority that the patch and ring are classified as medicinal products, not medical devices. That is just a correction there.  To sum up, the most important thing is that the Bill will improve access to hormonal contraception, including but not limited to the free contraception scheme. It will widen the range of services that can be delivered in the convenience of one's local pharmacy. It will improve patient choice and convenience. It will save money for private patients and, separately, for the State, by reducing costs for the free contraception scheme. It is going to provide essential additional capacity for additional women's health measures.  We have spent a lot of time trying to expand what pharmacies can do. We now have a common conditions service where you can go to a pharmacy instead of a GP to get a diagnosis and prescription for eight basic conditions like conjunctivitis or urinary tract infections - the kind of things that just come up in people's lives all the time. We would like to expand more and more what pharmacies can do. They are the first point of contact for medical contact. Pharmacists are extremely well trained. They have been in university for five and often six years. They are exceptionally good medical practitioners and they are trusted by the community. I want to see more done much more naturally in a pharmacist's than in a GP clinic. We can expand access to GPs, who will have the commensurate space in their practices due to people going to pharmacies for common condition services and the free contraception scheme. This will free up space otherwise needed for more complex consultations in GP surgeries. We are trying to move as much as we can into pharmacies. 2026 is a big year for that because we have launched the common conditions service and now have 95% of pharmacists signed up to it. People can go in and pay \u20ac30 or \u20ac35, whatever it happens to be, and get a quick diagnosis and a prescription there and then. Now we are adding this as well, for the convenience of women. Yes, that first prescription has to come from a GP because we know that many women have complex conditions, maybe blood pressure, or are of a certain age whereby there has to be an initial clinical assessment done. Thereafter they will go back to the pharmacist to get their blood pressure checked, have a consultation and have the prescription renewed for the next four and a half years. It is a fantastic thing for expanding women's health and access to healthcare generally. I hope the Seanad will agree. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Maria Byrne  I thank the Minister for coming to discuss this really important Bill today. I thank her personally and her Department for all they are doing for women's health since she came into office. The roll-out of this important Bill and the many other prescription services that can now be accessed through the pharmacy are really important. As the Minister said herself, people were queueing up to get a doctor's appointment and those appointments now will be available for people with more complex health issues. I understand that for the first appointment they need to go to the doctor but after that, it will be through the pharmacy. Pharmacists have a huge role to play. I compliment the IPU and its president and members for their involvement and willingness to step up to the plate. The Minister listed some of the different issues that can now be dealt with there. They are quite common issues which do happen in people's lives on a regular basis. Not having to go to a doctor for a prescription certainly saves people money but also time. For most people, especially for the less minor things like a urinary tract infection or conjunctivitis, people just want them dealt with and to move on with their day. They are not impeding most of the time.  Certainly I think that the contraception is going to be free for most people and for private patients it will be a lower price than normal. This is a really important step. I am sure the Minister has more things that she will be bringing forward in terms of the role of the pharmacy. People feel very comfortable in going to their pharmacist. Nine times out of ten, people have the same pharmacist and they build a relationship with that person. Even before this, people were often asking the advice of the pharmacist rather than going to the GP. It is a very important step. I compliment all involved. The Minister has the full support of Fine Gael. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Teresa Costello","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Teresa-Costello.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Teresa-Costello.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Teresa Costello  I welcome the Minister. She has made herself very available to the Seanad during this term. I understand how busy she is but we really do appreciate the time she has given and how she has listened to us. I mean that very sincerely. I welcome this Bill. It is practical and sensible legislation. It reflects how healthcare is evolving in Ireland. It is about making access to care easier and reducing unnecessary delays. The Minister spoke about pharmacists and their qualifications, which just brought me back to my childhood. We had a pharmacist whose name was Mattie. He worked out of Glenview. My grandparents and parents had such faith in him. He was a miracle worker in our community. People still talk about him to this day. He is long since retired. The existing pharmacists in our community are approachable and knowledgeable and deserve that respect to be given the extra trust to carry out extra work. They are one of the greatest strengths of our primary care system. The Bill builds on that trusted relationship. It is allowing them, under strict clinical protocols, to provide the repeat prescriptions for certain forms of short-acting contraception. It is not replacing the GPs but just complementing them and allowing them to focus on more complex issues and patients who have more complex needs.  The programme for Government committed to continuing the expansion of access to free contraception and this legislation delivers on that commitment in a practical and patient-centered way. The Bill benefits women outside the free contraception scheme and women aged over 35 are able to avail of the service privately where clinically approved, at a cost that is expected to be lower than the cost of attending a GP. It is a welcome step in improving accessibility and affordability. Just as importantly, the legislation contains important safeguards. As the Minister explained, patients must first receive the assessment and prescription from a GP. Pharmacists will operate under nationally approved clinical protocols with mandatory training and clear professional standards. Women with complex medical conditions or higher clinical risks will remain under the care of their GP, and that is really important. Likewise, long-acting reversible contraception such as implants and intrauterine devices will continue to be provided through appropriately trained medical professionals. These safeguards ensure that patient safety remains at the heart of this new service. The legislation represents good use of public resources. Every repeat prescription that can be safely managed in a pharmacy is one less routine appointment occupying valuable GP time. It creates additional capacity within general practice for patients with chronic illnesses, mental health concerns, children's healthcare and more complex conditions.  It creates the additional capacity within general capacity, including patients with chronic illnesses, mental health concerns, children's healthcare and more complex conditions. It is also a cost-effective reform. Under the community pharmacy agreement, the agreed reimbursement for a pharmacy consultation is significantly lower than the current allocation for a GP consultation, so it delivers value for taxpayers while improving patient convenience. I acknowledge the constructive engagement between the Department of Health, the HSE, the IPU and all those involved in developing this service. Their collaboration demonstrates how healthcare reform can be delivered through partnership and careful planning. As it is rolled out, it is important that the Government continues to monitor its implementation and ensure pharmacists receive the necessary training and support and maintain close collaboration with GPs to ensure a seamless continuity of care for patients. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pauline Tully","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Pauline Tully  Cuirim f\u00e1ilte roimh an Aire chuig an Seanad. I welcome the Bill. We will be fully supporting it. It makes sense. It will reduce barriers for women and make access to contraception easier, which is always going to be welcome. It will also ease pressure on primary care. It is a welcome step in the expansion of community pharmacy and women\u2019s healthcare services.  The free contraception scheme is still limited to women aged 17 to 35. The scheme should be reformed to cover all hormone therapy for all women and girls from adolescence through to and beyond menopause, and not restricted to those within certain age brackets.  Women's health is not embedded as a core service across primary and community care services. I acknowledge that there have been huge improvements on what is available for women, compared with a few years ago when there was nothing, but still far too often conditions affecting women are seen as a specialty or mystery when there is a range of supports and advice that women could receive through primary and community care services. A structured approach is needed to drive improvements in care for women in their local communities.  Sinn F\u00e9in has proposed a structured women's healthcare scheme in primary care, which would include general practice, pharmacy, nursing and allied primary care professions. The scheme would ensure appropriate support for women and girls at every stage of their life. Current services and supports are somewhat disjointed and can be costly. I welcome the Bill and will be supporting it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patricia Stephenson","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Patricia Stephenson  Senator Harmon and I are sharing time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Is that agreed? Agreed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patricia Stephenson","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Patricia Stephenson  I thank the Minister for coming in. This is a really positive step. I am delighted she is pushing it forward. By and large, the oral contraceptive is incredibly safe. A lot of well-studied medicines are available. Over-the-counter oral contraception has been recommended by the WHO since 2019. I understand that this process has been endorsed by the Irish Pharmacy Union, which is unequivocal that there is no clinical reason for this not to be done.  I recognise that it is going to alleviate pressure on GPs and expand access for many women, who simply do not have access to a regular GP. The Minister's commitment to further expand what pharmacists can prescribe and dispense is really positive. It has been happening in the North for many years and has worked very well.  Freeing up space for GPs is crucial. We also have to be mindful of the burden it will place on pharmacists without the correct resourcing for pharmacies to deliver the scheme to safeguard against them withdrawing from this or any future scheme simply because they feel they do not have the resources to deliver it in a timely manner. As Senator Costello explained beautifully about her own community pharmacist, they are highly trained experts with extensive knowledge, which this Bill acknowledges, but it is about making sure that they have the capacity to do it well and sustainably.  Families tend to stay with one pharmacy through generations. There is trust at a time when we have little access to our GPs. Many people do not have a regular GP. They rely on online GPs or it can take a month to get an appointment. I know a lot of women my age who cannot go to a GP so they are still spending the \u20ac20 to get their repeat prescription from a GP for their oral contraception. The prescription is free when they go to the pharmacy and they have their PPSN, but the process of getting the prescription costs them \u20ac20 because they simply cannot get a GP appointment. Women in that category are falling through the gap. I recognise that the Bill is going to address that, which is brilliant. It really is a positive move.  It is also a positive move for migrant women, women who cannot access a GP appointment or women who are forced to avail of online GPs, as I mentioned. It also includes women who do not have access to transport and maybe women experiencing coercive control in a domestic violence situation who cannot pop down to the GP, whereas accessing a pharmacy in a high-street shop is much easier. It creates a sense of additional safety around that.  I want to re-emphasise the piece around the workload for pharmacists. I know the Minister will be working with the Irish Pharmacy Union and moving forward on that, but we must ensure that pharmacies are staffed and resourced in an appropriate way.  The National Women's Council has found that 31% of women experience barriers in accessing the free contraception scheme as it stands. There are obviously concerns about the age restriction, although I know that is changing. I believe the age category for accessing free contraception is to increase in the next women's health action plan but perhaps I misread that. The Minister might refer to it in her response. It may be the case. We do not know yet. We would support an expansion of the scheme to women of fertile age. Just because a woman is over 35 does not necessarily mean she can afford access to contraception. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Laura Harmon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Laura Harmon  I welcome the Minister to the House. The Labour Party welcomes this Bill, which will allow pharmacists to prescribe contraception in certain circumstances. It is a sensible step that will help to improve access to the free contraception scheme, which was launched in 2022. We all know that many barriers exist in Ireland in terms of cost, geography or simply time for many people when trying to access a GP. That is particularly true in rural areas or socially disadvantaged areas. Empowering pharmacists to renew prescriptions is a sensible solution to one part of that problem.  We believe the age range for the free contraception scheme should be extended beyond the current range of 17 to 35. There are women well into their 40s and beyond who need access to contraception. In our view, raising the age to 40 at a minimum would cost just \u20ac5 million. We believe this should happen without delay.  As was mentioned, research by the National Women's Council has pointed out other barriers to access that exist with regard to the scheme. Its research found that 31% of women experience barriers to access to contraception. There is a real issue with access for migrant women, including those in IPAS centres, who will not have the PPS number needed to access the scheme. There are also issues around cultural beliefs that shape attitudes to contraception in certain migrant or perhaps Traveller communities and we should ensure that women in these communities are met with sensitivity and appropriate support to enable them to access the scheme in whatever way works for them.  We believe this Bill is a very positive and welcome step. I commend the Minister on it. It is also a timely reminder that we need to ensure the scheme works for every woman in this country. That means expanding age limits and looking seriously at how we remove any existing barriers to access. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Health (Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill)  I thank Senators for their support and enthusiasm for this legislation. It is very practical and will improve access to healthcare for women.  On the age range, this scheme was introduced in a phased way to protect the taxpayer. The emphasis was on the youngest women first, recognising that they probably had less money and that they were not as likely to be at the phase of trying to conceive as somebody in their late 20s or early 30s. The intention was to focus and build over time. I would very much like to continue to extend it. We reckon that for every year we extend the scheme, the additional cost is about \u20ac1 million. The extension to 36- to 40-year-olds is likely to be \u20ac5 million. The extension to 41- to 45-year-olds could possibly be \u20ac5 million to \u20ac8 million because there are statistically fewer women in that bracket trying to conceive, so the numbers are higher. It really is a question of funding.  I remind Senators that they have also asked me to fund various other programmes. We could be here talking about menopause and how we would like more specialist menopause clinics, which we are extending. It is important that Senator Tully raised this. I have put an emphasis on women's health generally. We have not had an emphasis on women's health historically. I pay tribute to my predecessor, Stephen Donnelly, and to a previous Minister, now T\u00e1naiste, Deputy Harris, who both began the women's health task force. We have seen nearly \u20ac200 million invested in women's health specifically as a consequence of that. However, it is still true to say that women's health has not been understood as a distinct thing. For example, cardiovascular disease presents entirely differently in many cases with women. Heart failure has different symptoms in women than in men. We know that. We have a Her Heart Matters programme to try to dedicate more resources and understand the differences between women and men when it comes to conditions of that kind. This year, we have provided funding of \u20ac2 million to the Health Research Board specifically for research on women's health to differentiate it and make it different.  In particular, the board will be focusing on aspects of menstrual health, on aspects of postpartum mental health, particularly in traumatic birth cases, on something we have overlooked for some time, which is endometriosis, on women who are finding it difficult to access services in different ways, as Senator Harmon suggested, and on more marginalised groups. It is about trying to find and understand different ways to make contact with them and make sure they have the health they are entirely entitled to.  I forgot to mention the hormone replacement therapy, HRT, arrangement, which is now free for women. I do not have concerns about pharmacists' continued participation. It is always wonderful to see advocacy for private businesses by the Social Democrats. They have been enthusiastic in signing up to the common conditions service. It is a service that generates fees for pharmacists. It is an opportunity to work at the top of their profession. I have found them to be really enthusiastic about this whole programme about expansion. It is far from withdrawing. They are able to hire more people. We have put more supports into being able to train at a totally different level. We want to give them the respect they need. I am more interested, if the Senator will forgive me, on supporting patients and access to patients. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patricia Stephenson","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Patricia Stephenson  Not all pharmacists are business owners. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill  That is why we have put so much money into supporting them in different ways, including the conclusion of a \u20ac50 million increase to their fees and to provide for the opportunity to raise private funds in this way, for example, the common conditions service. I want to see pharmacists doing more. I believe in pharmacists and community pharmacy. It is an exciting opportunity for any pharmacist to continue to participate in these different schemes.  First and foremost, and most importantly, this will make a big difference to women. I would like to go further with the free contraception scheme. It is a question of how we balance the budget and different needs that we all recognise for people. How do we do that in the most sensitive, appropriate and intelligent way over time with the funding that is available? "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  When is it proposed to take Committee Stage? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Maria Byrne  Now. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Is that agreed? Agreed. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sections 1 to 4, inclusive, agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Title agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Bill reported without amendment."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  When is it proposed to take the next Stage? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Maria Byrne  Now. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Is that agreed? Agreed. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Bill received for final consideration."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  When is it proposed to take the next Stage? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Maria Byrne  Now. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Is that agreed? Agreed. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question, \"That the Bill do now pass\", put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Health (Provision of Contraception Prescribing Service in Retail Pharmacy Businesses) Bill 2026: Second and Subsequent Stages"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_26","debateType":"debate","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/72","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/72\/seanad\/3_sub","houseCode":"seanad","stage":"3_sub","isBillStage":false,"showAs":"Development (Strategic Gas Reserve) Bill 2026: Committee and Remaining Stages (Seanad)"}},"showAs":"Development (Strategic Gas Reserve) Bill 2026: Committee and Remaining Stages","counts":{"speechCount":87,"speakerCount":9},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_26","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patricia Stephenson","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Timmy Dooley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Timmy-Dooley.S.2002-09-12","memberCode":"Timmy-Dooley.S.2002-09-12","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanne Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pat Casey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Lorraine Clifford-Lee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Lorraine-Clifford-Lee.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Lorraine-Clifford-Lee.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  The Minister of State, Deputy Dooley, is most welcome to Seanad \u00c9ireann. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 1 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 2"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Amendments Nos. 1, 2, 4, 8 and 15 are related and may be discussed together by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patricia Stephenson","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Patricia Stephenson  I move amendment No. 1:  In page 7, between lines 22 and 23, to insert the following:  \u201c \u201cemergency\u201d means a situation where the State is experiencing a significant and protracted physical disruption of gas supply, or other catastrophic deterioration of the supply situation, and where\u2014  (a) all relevant market-based measures have been fully implemented, exhausted, and proven insufficient to meet gas demand, and  (b) non-market-based measures must be introduced to safeguard gas supplies to protected customers, in accordance with the criteria for an Emergency Level under Article 11(1)(c) of Regulation (EU) 2017\/1938.  For the avoidance of doubt, an emergency does not include localised network constraints, or routine seasonal increases in gas demand where physical supply remains available.\u201d.  A number of us on this side of the House have concerns around what this is opening us up to.  We are concerned that we do not have the correct protections and safeguards in place to ensure that the supply will be State-owned and State-led because it is not included in the definitions in the legislation.  This amendment seeks to define genuine emergency supply. We want to make sure it is written into legislation and we do not see any mission creep whereby this facility is allowed to become a de facto gas intake facility that would increase our gas intake more broadly.  There are huge environmental concerns around this. It should be a last ditch option. We are not delighted about the disapplication of the climate Act, first and foremost, in this legislation. If it is to go ahead, it is crucial that there are safeguards in place. The world is literally on fire in some places. We have a forest fire in Ireland for the first time in years perhaps. I know we sometimes have them in the Mourne Mountains in the North. This is cause for concern, not just for future generations but for us today. The impacts of climate change are terrifying, and there are people dying in Europe because of the heat. We have serious concerns that this proposal will facilitate further carbon emissions. Effectively, we are disapplying the climate Act and our climate obligations at a time when we should be leaning in to climate policies and sustainability, which this legislation does not do. I cannot fathom why we are taking this approach.  I understand the Government's arguments around energy security but, at the same time, we are not doing anything. Look at our offshore wind. We are absolute laggards when once upon a time we led in Europe. There is no sense to it. Instead, we are forced to resort to this because of inaction and a lack of adequate planning for decades by the Government.  We feel there could be a de facto gas intake facility, which would not be an emergency, special-use only facility for when we really need it, just in case. The Government will spend \u20ac1 billion on this facility, which it called temporary. That is a huge investment for something that is temporary. My understanding is that this is \u20ac1 billion of taxpayers' money for a facility that will be used by private companies. They will benefit from the existence of this facility but it will cost \u20ac1 billion in taxpayers' money to establish it.  The Department has stated this facility \"will provide the resilience required to support our energy transition\" and that \"the reserve will only be used in genuine emergencies\", yet there is no definition in this Bill of what the Government means by an emergency and when that would apply. To prevent this reserve from creeping towards a permanent facility used for the general provision of energy, we need an up-to-date comprehensive energy security review. An amendment put forward by my colleagues in the Social Democrats and signed by a number of us in this House would evaluate all energy security alternatives, such as battery storage and alternative sustainable fuel resources. As the Minister of State will know, our capacity for storing renewable energy in Ireland is rubbish. With all of the great weather we are having, people, businesses and individual households can send power back to the grid, but it is not being stored in the capacity that it should be. We need cheaper battery storage for individual households as well.  It is important that an emergency does not include routine winter demand increases, seasonal demand spikes and local network constraints where gas remains available. The Bill does not clearly explain when the LNG could be activated. Without a clear definition, the threshold for using the facility would become increasingly broad, the strategic reserve could become a normal part of gas operations and operators could justify using it for reasons of commercial convenience. We are concerned that this is going to become utterly normalised, rather than being this so-called last-ditch option to be used only in a real emergency. We have absolutely no definition of what that means to the Government. An emergency could mean very different things to me and to the Government. When the world is on fire why are we leaning not towards climate-friendly, green, sustainable energy sources but towards something that is so incredibly harmful for our planet?  On climate change and the climate emergency, we cared about it in 2017, when we had \"Fridays for the Future\", and in 2019 but now, a few years later, we have forgotten about it. Now, it seems like it is so far down the line that we are all happy to engage in cognitive dissonance, stick our heads in the sand and pretend the world is not literally on fire, not for future generations but for our generation today, as people die from the heat in Europe. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alice-Mary Higgins  I am a member of the Joint Committee on Climate, Environment and Energy which examined this issue in some detail. As the Minister of State will be aware, I looked at this issue for a number of years prior to that, and he and I engaged on it when he was a Member of this House.  Interestingly, when the committee examined this issue the evidence and case for this terminal were not strong, and the warnings and dangers about its impact, environmentally, socially, in terms of security and financially, were really severe and serious. The case that was being made was limited. The committee produced a cross-party report, which, in its opener, states that there is only one very narrow kind of scenario in which such a terminal might be an appropriate solution and other appropriate solutions might be possible instead. In terms of the wider emergency pressures, the wider crisis we are facing and the wider issues of security and energy security, LNG does not deliver what we need in terms of energy security. It does not deal with the crisis we are having in terms of energy security. That is dealt with by renewables. It does not deal with the climate crisis and the emergencies that have been created. In fact, it intensifies the crisis and the problems we are facing in terms of climate change and related emergencies. It does not help us in those scenarios. It helps only in this very narrow scenario, which is in the case of an interconnector cable being broken. That is it. We are spending \u20ac1 billion on this one hypothetical scenario when we have real scenarios such as the climate crisis that is accelerating and which we can physically feel, yet we are not he putting the same equivalent resources into tackling those issues of energy security. I know some things are being done on renewables and batteries but, again, there is a big question of what \u20ac1 billion adds further to what we are doing and what that would look like.  There were a lot of concerns about balancing out and whether this was the right decision to make, some of which I will come to in later amendments. There was a cost-benefit scenario which only looked at whether a terminal is a better cost when compared with wind or battery, not compared with wind and battery. That is ludicrous because we know that renewable energy and battery storage are needed. That is the combination we would be using and seeking to intensify and deliver in an emergency scenario. That is where the investment can deliver more, not just for that specific scenario but for the wider range of energy security scenarios we have.  In the time between the committee initially scrutinising this issue and raising a lot of serious concerns and the Bill coming before us, the volatility and insecurity associated with gas, particularly this kind of LNG, have only intensified. We have seen it in relation to what has happened in Iran and the Strait of Hormuz. It is clearly not a safety net; it is a vulnerability.  On the emergency scenario, while giving credit to an emergency, if one were to arise, it is still not a great solution because it does not give us six months' supply. We were told we needed to do this because of the N-1 standard. What was unequivocally dealt with in the committee's hearing, and it is in the committee's report, is that the N-1 standard - can demand be met on an individual day? - can be met by demand-management measures, on the day. We can meet the European standard using demand-management measures. The committee was very clear on that. It is not the European N-1 standard making us do that. That angle was put to bed. What we were left with was this one hypothetical scenario of a damaged interconnector, and the idea that we might need six months of supply. The problem with that is an LNG terminal does not deliver six months of supply because the gas has to be vented and replaced every two months. Even if we had an LNG terminal, at an absolute maximum, if an event were to happen on the day after a new supply came in, there would be two months' supply available.  Otherwise, you are talking about ships bringing fuel in to replenish the reserve rather than ships being brought in with fuel for an emergency. I just want to be clear that doing this is not even great in an emergency scenario.  Here is the problem. When we were talking about this at a meeting of the committee, only one emergency scenario was identified in which this could actually be relevant. \"Emergency\" in the Bill could mean anything. There is no definition. We do not know what is meant by \"emergency\". Are we going to say that, because one hypothetical scenario we used to justify the \u20ac1 billion expenditure is not occurring, we should use the reserve for other emergencies, such as a bad day or a day when all of the gazillion large energy users we have added to the grid want to keep going and we also have a heatwave or cold day? What is going to count as an emergency?  I am worried that the scenario in which the provision is actually relevant is so narrow. The gas would literally be vented into the air. We would not and should not be using it in the system, but it would add to our emissions every two months. I worry that a narrative will emerge that we should use it for some other emergencies.  Amendment No. 1 makes it very clear that what is proposed should be the last resort. It should happen only after all relevant market-based measures have been implemented. Those market measures should include the demand-reduction strategies that are eligible under N-1, including demand reduction by large energy users, and should have been implemented, exhausted and proven insufficient. We are in a situation where only non-market-based measures can be introduced to safeguard gas supplies. This does not include localised constraints or routine seasonal increases in demand where physical supply remains available. That is amendment No. 1.  Amendments Nos. 4, 2 and 8 are Sinn F\u00e9in amendments and I will leave it to its members to speak to the specifics. They tackle the same core issue. The key question is that of what is going to constitute an emergency, and the slippage in what is used in defining an emergency.  Am I right that amendment No. 15 is in this grouping? I probably would not have put it in this grouping. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alice-Mary Higgins  Amendment No. 15 actually tackles a separate issue. I do not know whether I want to let the Minister of State contribute on the emergency aspect now and then come back in on amendment No. 15, because it deals with a quite different topic, namely ownership and operation. I could refer to both now. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Timmy Dooley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Timmy-Dooley.S.2002-09-12","memberCode":"Timmy-Dooley.S.2002-09-12","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Timmy Dooley  I do not mind. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alice-Mary Higgins  Maybe we will deal with them separately given that amendment No. 15 is on ownership and operation, and the question of whether this will genuinely be public. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Nessa Cosgrove  I have called this a Trojan Horse in the House before. This week, a new version of Homer's Odyssey is being released in cinemas nationwide. It is the tale of Odysseus's protracted journey following the end of the Trojan War. We all know the Trojan War ended when the cunning Greeks infiltrated the fortifications of Troy using a horse that was filled with Greek warriors. I know we might not have been talking about this, but this is a Trojan Horse. To say that the gas is for emergency use is an absolute Trojan Horse. It is going to be used in our energy mix. There is nothing else we can call it but a Trojan Horse.  People question the strategic thinking of the Trojans in bringing a wooden horse filled with danger into their city. Historians, no doubt, are going to refer to this legislation in that way, because the reserve is not going to be used solely for emergencies.  We are trying to define what an emergency is. There is no definition. Seven years ago, we led the way in the international community by committing to phase out oil and gas exploration. In fairness to Fine Gael, its former member Tony McLoughlin, who lives in my area, was actually behind banning the importation of fracked gas. This has been settled Government policy ever since. This amendment, which would reassert the commitment to reduce and legally phase out the use of natural gas, should not even be controversial at this stage; it should be accepted as a given. We are obliged to comply with our legally binding carbon budget targets. All this amendment does is reiterate that we will ensure compliance with these legally binding carbon budgets.  We have tabled many amendments. According to the summary, the purpose of this Bill is to secure a supply of gas in the event of an emergency, yet it does not include a definition of an emergency. An emergency needs to be defined so the Bill will not allow and encourage the incorporation of gas that the Oireachtas has authorised for use only in an emergency into the day-to-day energy mix.  The definition included in this amendment makes very clear what constitutes an emergency. That is why I wish the Minister of State would accept it. Without a definition of an emergency, there is a risk that we are going to be using filthy, horrible fracked gas in our energy mix. If the Government really believes the gas is for use in an emergency, why does it not accept this amendment? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Before I call the next speaker, I welcome Senator Frances Black and her guests: Shay Black, brother of the Senator, and Erica Pagels, from San Francisco \u2013 or, more accurately, Berkeley, which is just outside San Francisco \u2013 which is a nice part of the world. I thank Ms Pagels for coming over. I thank Senator Black for bringing her guests here. I am sure Shay is her favourite brother, just as the last brother she had here was also her favourite. Shay is most welcome to Seanad \u00c9ireann. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanne Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joanne Collins  I am going to speak to amendments Nos. 2, 4 and 8.  Amendment No. 2 makes it absolutely clear that the strategic emergency gas reserve is exactly that: an emergency reserve. It cannot become another source of gas for day-to-day commercial supply or market management. As my colleagues have said, we need to know what \"emergency\" actually means when it comes to this reserve. If we are establishing this facility on energy security grounds, it must only ever be used in a genuine emergency, as defined under EU rules.  Amendment No. 4 places a clear sunset clause on the reserve. It ensures that the facility would remain a temporary response to a specific energy security challenge and not become a permanent piece of fossil fuel infrastructure that would undermine our climate commitments.  On amendment No. 8, I will keep my remarks short and sweet. The amendment strengthens accountability by requiring the Minister to report annually that the reserve is being maintained solely for emergency purposes and remains a temporary measure. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Timmy Dooley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Timmy-Dooley.S.2002-09-12","memberCode":"Timmy-Dooley.S.2002-09-12","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment (Deputy Timmy Dooley)  I am grateful for the opportunity to address the House on this Stage. I thank Senators Stephenson, Higgins, Cosgrove and Collins for their contributions. In fairness, having listened to them outlining the background to their amendments, I can fully understand where they are coming from. I share their concerns about the climate and take their points about the really negative impact of fossil fuels and the burning of them on our climate, and the impact that they are having domestically, across the rest of Europe and in countries where we see starvation as a result of the abuse of this source of energy.  This is a last-ditch measure that we have had to introduce to put ourselves in a position to have security of supply in the event of a rupture in one of our connections to the North Sea supplies through the UK.  On Senator Stephenson's point about the very significant cost, she is correct that the gas will be used by private companies. Private companies use gas and in the event of a rupture, they would be in the same position as every other gas user. Gas users include hospitals, schools and large centres of employment that require gas. That is what it is about. It is not as if we are doing something just for the benefit of corporates' balance sheets; it is about ensuring the economy can ride out an event. Such an event is unlikely, I hope, but it is possible.  What is really important is that, from a Government perspective, as was the case with the previous two Governments, we regard gas and oil as transition fuels. We have a very clear agenda for powering our economy from renewable sources. Yes, we have fallen behind on the deployment of offshore wind turbines. Yes, we were the leaders at a stage, but we have a very strong pipeline in place.  There are about 5 GW going through the planning process at the minute, at various different stages, as part of what are referred to as the phase 1 projects. Those are developer-led projects. Sites have been identified and have to go through a significant amount of clearance.  This is under way. We hope that about 5 GW will be energised by 2031 or 2032. We expect by 2030 that much of this construction will be under way. The State pivoted through initiatives of the previous Government to take a plan-led approach to developing offshore renewables. We are undertaking a national designated maritime area plan, which is effectively a plan to identify suitable sites around our coastline for offshore renewables. We will have this completed by the end of 2027 and this is aimed at having an additional 15 GW of electricity on the grid by 2040. We are very clear on the direction of travel. The component referred to in the Bill is purely about getting us there. We know, it is accepted, and I take the point on trying to reduce insofar as we can the use of gas and encouraging insofar as we can large energy users to reduce their dependence on fossil fuels, even in that interim.  Longer term, a recent report from the ESB would indicate that to get to net zero by 2050 will not be done on just wind or solar alone but will require batteries. Even in addition to batteries, it will require some liquid fuel. The one that has the best chance to emerge will be hydrogen. We are developing a hydrogen strategy in the Department. We are planning ahead but we must also be clear about the here and now and what we do today, tomorrow and next year in the event of a rupture to the gas supply. This was not as acute until more recent years, and particularly as a result of the renewed assault by the Russians into Ukraine and its usage of the grey fleet we know it uses, on occasion menacingly hovering in waters close enough to our EEZ, and sometimes within it with no clear intent. It would be foolhardy of us not to put in place the capacity in the event of a rupture to the gas supply to get us through those difficult days.  I accept the motivation of the amendments but the Bill is about getting through the planning phase. There will be another Bill towards the end of the next term, which will consider the operations of the facility when it is constructed. In the discussion we are having now, I want to fully explain where we are going on it, and it is at that stage we will engage on how we deal with an emergency and what the operation of it will be. Our discussions then might be more fruitful in terms of that legislation. I will not accept the amendments and we will have a conversation again on the legislation when it is published and I will happily come back and go through it in detail. This applies to a lot of the amendments today because this is just about making the appropriate changes to allow for the appropriate assessment to be done to get through the decision the Minister will take on the planning and the construction works that have to take place around it.  Another point raised was regarding in what event it might be used or whether it could lead to greater usage of gas. This is not at all the intention. The intention is to have it as a strategic reserve. Technologies are advancing and Senator Higgins mentioned the idea of flaring and boiling off. Technology is improving. I am no expert on this but I have read a little about it and it can be done in a closed loop way. Previous technologies required a boil-off every number of weeks or months. We have moved beyond that but I will clarify it when we are back in discussions on the next occasion. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alice-Mary Higgins  The Government wants permission to build it and to suspend the climate Act so it does not apply and get it built. This is important because it should be borne in mind that building this terminal is not just about this terminal, as it will also open the door to commercial, which I will come to in a moment. It is reversing years of Government policy whereby we had the fossil fuel divestment Bill and the ban on fracking, because this will include fracked gas. There was also, of course, the policy prohibiting LNG which we had. It was not law and should have been law. The then Minister, Eamon Ryan, should have made it to law and it was wrong that it was only policy.  We are reversing all of these policies that have helped to keep commercial LNG at bay. We put measures into our planning and development Acts that allow for a fast-track planning process not just for this LNG structure but any LNG structure. It is a fast-track planning process so it goes straight to An Coimisi\u00fan Plean\u00e1la. A lot is being asked and saying we will discuss what happens with it later is not really on. If the Minister of State is asking for so much to be set aside, and so many new risks to be taken on, he cannot say we will decide how we do it later. A recommendation of the committee and of many of the experts we heard from is that there should be a single Bill rather than seeking permission to build it and then talking about what we do with it. This is not good practice.  The Minister of State cannot say we do not want to discuss whether there will be an emergency. Sure there is detail in it but the key issue is that what he is asking of the Oireachtas, which is to agree to it being built, is on the argument of there being an emergency. It should be very clear what the emergency is. I mentioned previously that the committee said our N-1 obligations could be met through demand management. It agreed there was one scenario, an incident relating to the interconnectors, but noted it would do little to insulate Ireland from more generalised risk to energy security and, in fact, what the Government should be doing is accelerating onshore, decarbonisation and secondary fuels and fast tracking other interconnectors and all of the rest that the Minister of State has described. The problem is that a lot of our renewable energy is being immediately absorbed by the increase in usage.  Nonetheless, I have some practical questions. We need a little more on what the emergency is because it is not sufficient to say we will deal with it then. The emergency is the ground on which the Minister of State is asking for the normal planning process and the climate Act to be suspended. We need to know what the emergency is. If it is the case that there is an exit plan by 2040, it should answer the amendment tabled by Sinn F\u00e9in. The groupings are a little bit strange because I have also tabled a sunset clause amendment, which will be dealt with later and has not been grouped with Sinn F\u00e9in's sunset clause amendment. If this is about a transition and getting the house in order, there should be a sunset clause. We need a sunset clause. If it is going to be temporary, then temporary needs to be quantified in the Bill.  Amendment No. 15 is also grouped with this amendment and this is a core issue in respect of ownership and operation. In the amendment, Senators Harmon, Cosgrove and Noonan and I are asking that the designated strategic gas reserve would remain exclusively in public ownership and under State control and would not be transferred or outsourced in whole or in part to any private commercial entity. That is vital. It is part of the core rationale as to why all of this special waiving and fast-tracking is being requested and the reversal of so much previous Government policy. I remember a moment, and I am sure the Minister of State does, when Ireland was going around the world selling green bonds on the back of our anti-fracking legislation and our fossil fuel divestment laws. We were selling bonds whereby Ireland was the future and getting into leading world anti-fossil fuel and climate change conferences yet we have this happening now.  The committee is very clear on this. All provisions in the Bill that allow for development or operation by commercial entities must be explicitly limited to public bodies.  The committee looked for this to be explicitly limited, both the development and operation, to the public bodies. That was a very clear message from the committee. Our amendment does the same thing. It says that it cannot be transferred to private commercial entities; it must be a designated public body; the Minister would not direct, permit or authorise any send-out of the gas unless the CRU has formally certified that a gas supply emergency exists that cannot be resolved by any other balancing; and all large energy users operating within the State have been curtailed. This is another one. I see now why it is grouped. It is because part of it is on the public ownership and the other part is that there is curtailment, if necessary, of large energy users in terms of minimum operation of electricity and natural gas consensual process. The Minister of State might touch on that. Will he talk to the emergency? What comes first in terms of demand reduction? That is not operational. That is policy. What are the policy measures that are going to be activated in terms of demand reduction and other measures before this last tier gets used? What measures are there in terms of ensuring that this is only under public ownership and only under public operation, as the committee has called for? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Nessa Cosgrove  I will speak to amendment No. 15. If the stated intent of the FSRU is for it to be an emergency reserve, then the logical thing to do is to put it into public ownership. There should be no question that this will go to private providers. There is no room at all for commercial operators to make a profit out of this really dangerous gas. If we are going to end up with it as a reserve - I do not think it is a reserve - can we make sure it stays in public ownership and legislate for that? The Minister of State told us it will only be used in emergencies but that is not clear in the Bill because there is no definition of an emergency. If there is an insistence that it is going to be there, this amendment would provide a safeguard that it would only be used in an emergency, it would remain in public ownership and it will not open the door to commercial operators, which is a real threat. It would be great if the Minister of State could speak to that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Timmy Dooley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Timmy-Dooley.S.2002-09-12","memberCode":"Timmy-Dooley.S.2002-09-12","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Timmy Dooley  I thank both Senators for the amendments they are putting forward and the sentiment behind them. I will deal with the points about the emergency. The Government made it very clear that a decision was taken, based on a decision taken by the previous Government in November 2024. It looked to Gas Networks Ireland, a State entity, to bring forward a series of measures as a solution to the very real threat, albeit one we hope to never have to deal with. The then Government made very clear at that stage that this would not be a market play. It was not an injection point into the grid that effectively allowed for a competing entity to sell gas into the Irish market. If that was the case, we would have done it in an entirely different way. That was a very clear policy statement.  The fact is that GNI will have ownership and control of the entity. As the Senators know, the piece of kit \u2013 effectively the ship \u2013 will be leased in. There are a number of these around the world and they move on. First, we are not investing in the kind of infrastructure that had been a feature of discussions in the past. Other sites were identified by corporate players outside of Ireland that saw opportunities on a commercial basis to use LNG as a tertiary source of gas supplied into the network. The State did not engage with that option. It looked at ownership and control. At the core of this policy decision, which the legislation is attempting to implement, is that this would be retained and owned by the State. It was not a market play or another opportunity to reduce the price of gas, etc. It was not about an additional quantum of gas being utilised. It was purely about the strategic reserve. That was at the core of the Government decision at the time. It was the core of the policy paper and it is still very much the case, as set out here.  Senator Higgins is right that this legislation is about getting through the building of the facility. There will be further legislation in relation to its operation. The Senator asked me directly about an emergency. From my perspective, an emergency is in the event of a rupture to the gas supply. As she is aware, we have an adequate supply coming through two interconnectors from Scotland, but it is effectively North Sea gas. We have some gas coming from the Corrib reserve. That has six or seven years of supply left, so it is dwindling. I am not a scientist but where there are very significant reserves of gas, it tails off towards the end, so there is not the same rate of supply on a daily or monthly basis as when the reserve was at its full capacity. The Corrib reserve is going to peter out. Corrib gas is down to maybe 10% of what we utilise now.  Senator Higgins is right that the previous Government, when we were in opposition, supported then Deputy Br\u00edd Smith and others on ending licensing of further drilling for oil and gas because we just did not think there was a long-term future in it. I still do not think there is. I stand over that decision, yet I am able to explain the necessity that we have today, which is to give ourselves resilience in the event of something unforeseen happening to that reserve. I respectfully differ with Senator Higgins. I know all the Senators present have a long track record of campaigning on these issues but it is not the Government pivoting towards using more gas at all; it is quite the opposite actually. This is a recognition that we have to get to a better place, and we do.  We can talk about sunsets, but the fact that it is a temporary facility in the first instance would send a very strong signal on what the policy is about. When we get to a point where we do not have to depend on it any more, it will be moved on to the next location. There will be some infrastructure on shore but it will be limited enough. That might cover the point.  There were three issues. I have given my thoughts on the emergency. The commercial piece is very clear. This is managed by GNI in a non-commercial way. It is purely for storage. It is not meant to be an infusion of gas into the network in a market-sensitive way. That is not how it is going to play out. On the ownership piece, because GNI is a State entity, it is managing all of that. To me, that effectively answers the worries and concerns the Senators might have had in regard to those particular amendments. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alice-Mary Higgins  Again, with absolute respect, the issue is that the Minister of State is giving us his understanding but that is not the same as having it in legislation. The position taken by the then Minister, Eamon Ryan, and some others was deeply wrong and regrettable. They relied on a policy statement, rather than bringing in the prohibition that should and could have been brought in on public policy grounds under EU law. Ireland would have had very strong grounds, in particular given our national ban on fracking and hydraulic fracking. When we should have had a hard legal measure we had a policy position. We saw that as soon as Fine Gael and Fianna F\u00e1il were in government together and the Green Party was gone that policy changed. It flipped.  Simply saying \"Our policy is\" or \"I envisage it is this\" is not the same as having a definition of \"emergency\" in the Bill. We do not know what this Government or a future government might decide is its version of an emergency. I appreciate that the Minister of State speaks in good faith about what he thinks it will be, but unless it is in the Bill, that can change, much like the Government that went around the world selling green bonds and saying it was against fracking, fracking is horrendous and came from a Government backbencher at the time. Now, we are suddenly okay with it having an input. Those things change. That is why the law needs to be got right.  We are not getting hard measures to copper-fasten the ownership and operation as being public and copper-fasten a definition of emergency. We are not getting solid measures on those safeguards. The other safeguards we have, which are our planning laws and climate laws, are being either fast-tracked or suspended. We are suspending the existing safeguards and are not putting hard safeguards into this Bill, and we are being asked to go on faith. We have seen the dilution in the position in this regard and the deterioration of the commitment in being against this type of hideous accelerant of the climate crisis.  This is one of the dirtiest fuels. It involves the production of methane, which is an accelerant. As the Minister of State rightly said, and I know he understands, we are doing this at a time when there is no global space in the atmosphere for it. Anything extra should be happening in developing countries that have been hit by this climate crisis and have not caused it. We are keeping digging and we are buying what people who keep digging are producing. That is the problem.  I accept that we are here to discuss it but, frankly, it is not enough to have the Minister of State\u2019s good faith in respect of what he interprets an emergency as being. We have to vote on what is in front of us, and what is in front of us is ambiguous and dangerous. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Timmy Dooley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Timmy-Dooley.S.2002-09-12","memberCode":"Timmy-Dooley.S.2002-09-12","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Timmy Dooley  I thank the Senator very much. I think I made very clear what my understanding is and also what the Government\u2019s position has been for some time. An emergency is when or if, and hopefully never, a significant rupture happens to one of the interconnectors and we need an emergency backup to get us through difficult times. Of course, all efforts would be taken at that stage to mitigate, insofar as we can, the demand and manage it. Certain circumstances, however, could arise where we would have no choice but to use what is in the strategic reserve, and that is what it is there for.  Turning to the Senator\u2019s point about the position we have taken on green bonds and all of that, I still think that there is consistency in the approach and the policy here. We have sent very strong messages right around the world about where we are going with our energy mix. We are pivoting away as fast as we possibly can to a greener, brighter future for us, with less impact on the environment. Even if we move beyond the environmental necessity or imperative of doing this, it also gives us an edge in terms of energy security.  We have been debating for a number of years the necessity of doing this from the perspective of carbon emission reductions. What has happened since 2022, however, again referencing the invasion of Ukraine and the impact that had on the supply of oil, and the recent US initiative in the Middle East, the impact that is having on the Strait of Hormuz and the consequent impact on the global price of fossil fuels, creates an economic imperative, even if we choose to ignore the climate initiative or the necessity to address it. It is about having a supply of our own energy on our doorstep so that we are not dependent on the goodwill or bad actions of others.  We are driving ahead with that really aggressively, to the extent that recently the Taoiseach set up an office known as the offshore energy clearance house. This is to ensure there are no unnecessary delays or any of the bureaucratic stumbling blocks that often arise and delay major projects. I am sure we could speak about them for a number of hours here. I would not have to mention many and I am sure the Senator would identify them. The Government is absolutely committed to driving ahead with the agenda of previous Governments in moving away from fossil fuels.  Much and all as I would like to say that we can do that today, we have to recognise that we have to transition, bring our economy with us and cover, insofar as we can, any potential interruptions to supply. I hope the Senator will understand that from our perspective. I have set out the issues with commerciality and the ownership of GNI. As I said, there will be a Bill relating to the detailed operations of the entity, and we can have further discussions about it. I am not asking the Senate to have faith. This is just about the construction phase, addressing planning and getting us to a point where we can move ahead with all of that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Nessa Cosgrove  I am sorry but I just do not buy the argument that it is security. A floating LNG storage facility in Qatar was blown up. It is actually more of a risk to our security to have a floating LNG terminal.  This whole thing is mad. Paul Griffiths, CEO of Predator Oil and Gas, publicly said 12 months ago that he would not live near an LNG terminal. He said, \u201cAccidents can happen, so keeping facilities well out of the reach of habitation is vital\u201d. He went on to say, \"There\u2019s like a one-in-1,000 chance perhaps of an accident happening, but when an accident does happen [ - he did not even say if - ] it would be catastrophic\".  As for the idea that this is about some kind of energy security, it is not. It is actually the opposite. It is a real threat to our security. Why do we have two Bill? Why are we debating this Bill and then having to debate another one? It does not make any sense. I cannot understand it. This is a Trojan horse being railroaded through. I cannot understand why we would want to have two Bills on the very same thing. Why is the operation of the facility not included in this legislation? Why can the amendments not be accepted? That would be it sorted. I do not understand. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Timmy Dooley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Timmy-Dooley.S.2002-09-12","memberCode":"Timmy-Dooley.S.2002-09-12","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Timmy Dooley  I thank the Senator very much. This Bill is going through the planning laws and addressing the issues that arise in the construction of the jetty, what all that is about and the facility that has to be built on the shoreline to allow it, in the event of a necessity, to connect into the gas grid. That is that bit. The operation is an entirely separate issue, and that is why we will have dialogue about it, legislation on it and a discussion on it. Trying to put the two together, quite frankly, would not be the best approach. The Government has taken that decision, and we will happily go through all of that as we work it through.  I take the Senator\u2019s point about the Trojan horse. There is nothing that I will be able to do to convince her otherwise. She has a very clear position on that, and I accept she has reached that point from her own thinking. I can assure her, however, that as a politician on this side of the House, I do not accept that position. The policy position and the legislation are very clear that this facility is only for an emergency.  Why else would we do it in this way? If we were going to do it in a manner that allowed for a market-led approach, then we would not be putting the burden on the State to build the facility at that cost of \u20ac1 billion. That is \u20ac1 billion that could be utilised for something else. If we were to do it, however, to get the private sector to pay for the security - I think it is accepted on all sides that there is a necessity for some security in terms of the gas supply - and if the Government were to say it would provide that through a market-led private consortium and initiate an auction to allow entities around the world to bid for it, as sure as night follows day, that would increase the use of gas. LNG would be coming in at a lower price, so more of it would be placed into the grid system and the market generally, and that would have the consequence the Senator spoke about.  If that were the approach the Government had decided on, we would be taking a completely different approach. The Senator would rightly be identifying those issues and we would have an extra \u20ac1 billion to utilise on something else. The State has taken a view, however, that is consistent with our desire and our commitments to reduce carbon dioxide emissions by 2030, and onwards to 2040 and 2050, that this facility is strategic, as it says, that it is only for storage and that it is not meant to be a market play and cannot be a market play. The ownership will be in the hands of GNI, which has responsibility for the infrastructure and not for the provision of gas. That is not its thing. It buys gas into the system from different sources. I am not going to be able to convince the Senator, but I can reassure her that what she suggested is not what is at play here. I do not foresee any future Government taking decisions such as that.  I think Senator Higgins's point was she wanted something in the legislation because a future Government might take a different opinion. A future Government might take a different view and it would also be able to change the law in those circumstances to facilitate whatever its ultimate policy might be.  We have to be mindful of what this is attempting to do. It is attempting to put the legal framework in place to implement a policy that has been clearly set out as to what we are trying to achieve here. I would ask the Senators in good faith to accept that. Of course, if the Senators push their amendments, I will have to reject them. I accept where the Senators are coming from and the points they are trying to make. From the Government's perspective, we are on the same side as the Senators in terms of what they want to achieve. We think that what the Senators are proposing is unnecessary and is already catered for. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Before I go to the next question, as this is the last sitting day before we break up for the summer, I thank Martin and all the Seanad staff, all the ushers, all the people who work in catering and all the people in the Oireachtas community, including the staff who work around the Upper House, for all their work. Martin and all the Seanad team have done a great job this year guiding us all in what sometimes can be quite challenging times. I also thank those members of the Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na who keep us safe in here, but also the Senators' own staff and all the staff, as I said, within the Oireachtas, particularly Grace Coyle and Sarah and Caoimhe in my own office. I am sure all the Senators' staff are looking forward to seeing them leave in many cases, and giving them a small break for a few weeks. I hope the Senators all enjoy the weather and come back safe in the new term. I thank the Senators all for being here.  Is amendment No. 2 being moved? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanne Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joanne Collins  I move amendment No. 2:  In page 7, between lines 22 and 23, to insert the following:  \" \"Emergency use only\" has the meaning as defined by the N-1 infrastructure standard defined by EU Regulation 2017\/1938 only. A Strategic Emergency Gas Reserve under this Act and all future Acts relating to its construction, operation, maintenance and decommissioning cannot be used for management of day-to-day energy demand;\". "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Amendment Nos. 3, 12, 13 and 16 are related and may be discussed together by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Nessa Cosgrove  I move amendment No. 3:  In page 8, after line 39, to insert the following:  \" \"hydraulically fractured gas\" means liquefied natural gas, or natural gas in any other form, that has been produced, in whole or in part, by means of hydraulic fracturing within the meaning of section 5A of the Petroleum and Other Minerals Development Act 1960;\".  A definition of fracked gas or hydraulically fractured gas is required to accompany a reiteration of the ban that was introduced on fracked gas and which is necessary to protect our environment. We banned the fracking of gas in this jurisdiction on health grounds and environment grounds for the good but if we allow imported fracked gas to be used, we will be hypocrites. It is wrong that it is fine for us to ban it here but it is fine for us then to import it. It is not right.  The amendment defines \"fracked gas\", which does not appear anywhere in the Bill. This, with amendment No. 13, would make clear that the importation of fracked gas would not be possible under the Bill. LNG particularly when sourced in the US, is usually derived from fracking. In Pennsylvania, we can see the devastating consequences, not only environmental consequences but health consequences as well. This is why we have included a definition of \"hydraulically fractured gas\" as meaning \"liquefied natural gas, or natural gas in any other form, that has been produced, in whole or in part, by means of hydraulic fracturing within the meaning of section 5A of the Petroleum and Other Minerals Development Act 1960\". That Act defines hydraulic fracturing and, after amendment in 2017, banned the practice of fracking in Ireland. Unfortunately, it did not ban the importation of fracked gas.  As I said earlier, it was a brave move banning fracked gas in Ireland at the time. As I said about former Deputy, Tony McLoughlin, in fairness, he did a lot of work up in our area. Deputy Scanlon did as well. They did a lot of work in the area.  Subsequent Government policy introducing a de facto ban on the importation of fracked gas will be overturned to develop this LNG facility. It is definitely hypocritical for us to say that it is grand for us to import it, that we do not want to have it here ourselves but it is grand for us that other countries can have the damage of fracking and then we will import it.  I hope the Minister of State will consider those amendments. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alice-Mary Higgins  As I said, credit is due to former Deputy ,Tony McLoughlin as well as to former Deputy, Thomas Pringle, of course, who brought in the Fossil Fuel Divestment Bill. These were measures, loudly trumpeted by the Government, that came from backbenchers, both on the Government and Opposition sides. We made a decision collectively as a Parliament to say that fracking was wrong and that we did not want fracking happening in Ireland, and it was for very good reason. It was for environmental reasons. It was for safety reasons. It was for all of the climate reasons. It was very real.  The idea is a striking and unacceptable hypocrisy. We agreed fracked gas was wrong because the fracking of gas is this incredibly intensive process that produces incredibly dirty and dangerous fuel in an incredibly dirty and dangerous way. It is the cracking of earth deep down to release emissions that might otherwise never see the surface.  We said it was wrong, so we should not then say it is okay to buy it from other places.  I support amendment No. 3 and the other amendments relating to this, but I also have my own amendment. It is amendment No. 12, which states we should limit importation of liquefied natural gas from any country not party to the Paris Agreement, as well as limiting any LNG produced by hydraulic fracturing. Amendment No. 13 focuses solely on the importation of LNG obtained through hydraulic fracturing. There are amendments tackling the wider issue of fracking and saying fuels obtained through it should not be part of the Bill, but I want to specifically talk about importation. The majority of the European Union's imported liquefied natural gas, approximately 58%, comes from the United States, a country that is not party to the Paris Agreement, which has abandoned the idea of global and national climate targets and whose President is paying energy companies to stop building renewable energy. They are so actively hostile to renewable energy and so deeply committed to \"Drill, baby, drill\". That is what is happening in the United States right now. It is not just not party to the Paris Agreement, but is actively working against climate action. It has abandoned the concept of common but differentiated responsibilities that is core to the Paris Agreement and to the global movement for climate justice and against climate breakdown.  It is a minimum and should be in this law - the Minister of State should accept this amendment - to say it is bad enough that we suspend our own climate Act in respect of this terminal. We have to suspend the climate Act because there will not be a climate justification. The narrative we have heard is about transition and renewables. If that stood up, the Minister of State would be able to work within the climate Act because that logic could be checked against that. If it really was a transition, the Minister of State would not have to suspend the climate Act. It is one thing to suspend our climate Act, but it is another to support and facilitate the efforts to torpedo global climate action that are happening in the United States.  We should not import fracked gas because it is immoral. It comes from real places with real communities that are immediately and terribly impacted by fracking, as well as having an impact on the atmosphere that surrounds our beautiful planet, which we are destroying. As the Minister of State said, it impacts not just on business but on the liveability of large portions of this planet. This is as real as it gets. The idea we would be part of that in terms of fracking is hideous, as is the idea we would take up to 58% of it from a country that is working against climate targets and where we know the drilling part of the fracking will not be measured. This is not a one-off. We will not only buy LNG if it is an emergency. Rather, we will buy and use it every day this terminal is in existence. Every two months, because of the venting mechanism, we will be refilling it.  We are signing up to be customers of liquefied natural gas - potentially fracked gas, potentially coming from a country that is busily fighting against climate action and trying to fast-track our route to destruction. We will be doing that every year in the budget and every day in the terminal. Every two months, we will get another shipment in. We will actively be part of it. That is not a hypothetical; that is the reality of building this terminal.  If it is not going to be used, then let us find our gas elsewhere. If it is going to be such a rare circumstance, then let us not take liquefied natural gas that comes from hydraulic fracturing and let us not import it from a country that is busy destroying climate targets. Let us not give support to the fossil fuel industry, which lobbies nationally and internationally against climate action. If it is going to be such a rare usage, the minimum the Minister of State should be able to tell us is it will not be hydraulic fractured gas and will not come from countries not party to the Paris Agreement. That last is currently the United States, but who knows in the future who else might be relevant there? I think that is a minimum. I hope the Minister of State will accept these amendments. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Timmy Dooley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Timmy-Dooley.S.2002-09-12","memberCode":"Timmy-Dooley.S.2002-09-12","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Timmy Dooley  I understand clearly the Senator's position on fracked gas and I share it. I mentioned Tony McLoughlin, Eamon Scanlon and a number of others who worked on behalf of campaigns. There was a group in Fermanagh, a group in Clare, a group in Sligo and there may have been others. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alice-Mary Higgins  Eddie Mitchell. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Timmy Dooley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Timmy-Dooley.S.2002-09-12","memberCode":"Timmy-Dooley.S.2002-09-12","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Timmy Dooley  Absolutely. There was quite a campaign against that. We all saw the damage hydraulic fracturing could do to certain environments and the impact it could have on groundwater. That stands, but it is a whole different ball game for us in terms of the procurement of supplies to fill a strategic reserve. That is effectively traded on international markets. We go to the markets, as the State will, through GNI to procure the gas. It is a commodity. I do not think we can start to decide who we take it from and who we do not.  I need to get clarity for the Senator about the latest technologies for boil-off of gas and whether it has to be filled every couple of months. My understanding is that is changing significantly at a global level and it will be possible to have a reserve without the necessity to utilise it or boil it through on a frequent basis. I will get the Senator more information on that.  The Senator raised the 2021 policy statement on the importation of fracked gas. That statement was to remain in place pending completion of the review of Ireland's energy security. When we put that in place, it was clear that we did not want fracked gas in our network as a competitive element. However, it was recognised that if we had to build a strategic reserve, liquefied natural gas would be the source of that and there was potential for fracked gas to be part of that. We made it clear that the policy statement would only remain in place until the security review had been done. The review has been completed, so that position changes. The security element is now decided by the Government and by Government policy to have a facility for storing LNG. Procurement of that will be done on the open market, will be based on commodity prices and will not dictate one way or another what the source of that is. That is the appropriate way to deal with the situation.  At all times, it is about minimisation of LNG usage in our grid mix. It is only in case of an emergency. I have told the Senator what I believe the Government's position is on that emergency and what is involved there. We will not be accepting the amendment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alice-Mary Higgins  The Paris Agreement. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Nessa Cosgrove  The Minister of State recognised that there was a grassroots movement and the documentary \"Groundswell\" captured it. There is also the documentary \"Gasland\", which was made in America and came out in 2010. We know it is going to come from America. Again, this is the Trojan horse. We know that if it is going to be LNG, it is going to be fracked gas and it is going to come from America. We know that it does have to be vented. The majority of LNG is methane and is 80 times more warming than carbon dioxide. It is 33% more damaging to the atmosphere than coal. Why are we having it at all? It is fine for us not to have it here. We know the detrimental affects it has on communities and we successfully stopped fracking from happening in our country, so why is it okay for the Government, as Senator Higgins said, to say \"Drill baby, drill\". Why is it okay that we are going to say it is fine for communities in places like Pennsylvania to have their lives destroyed? Communities have been destroyed by it. It is sinking into the water supply and we know there are not only health concerns but environmental concerns around areas where people are living. Has the Minister of State seen that documentary? It is really good but it is also terrifying. Why would we say that it is grand for those communities to get along with fracking and we will accept the product? More and more, I think it is the Trojan horse. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alice-Mary Higgins  I would like an explicit answer in relation to the Paris Agreement component of my amendment as well. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Timmy Dooley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Timmy-Dooley.S.2002-09-12","memberCode":"Timmy-Dooley.S.2002-09-12","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Timmy Dooley  The Senator's reference to the Paris Agreement was that the United States is no longer part of it. That is a decision its democratically elected Government has taken. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alice-Mary Higgins  We decide who we import from. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pat Casey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Pat Casey)  Please let the Minister of State answer and I will let you back in, Senator. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Timmy Dooley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Timmy-Dooley.S.2002-09-12","memberCode":"Timmy-Dooley.S.2002-09-12","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Timmy Dooley  To be consistent, we purchase oil and gas on the commodities markets and that is the intention here. We are not going to stray from that. We need to look at the bigger picture as to what our ultimate objective is. I do not agree with the Senator's comments about a Trojan horse. Our objective is to have a safety mechanism to address any rupture to the security of supply as we transition from the use of fossil fuels to a greener economy. If I was arguing that we should now be taking fracked gas from the United States or wherever, through an injection point into the grid as a method of reducing the overall cost of energy, the Senator's argument would be well made. I am not minimising the Senator's argument but it would have more validity. We are just looking at this as a methodology for transitioning away from fossil fuels. All fossil fuels are harmful to the environment. The Senator is right that methane has a much higher concentration and is more impactful by what is referred to as the carbon dioxide equivalence. It is much greater than carbon dioxide but it also has shorter life in the atmosphere. It dissipates over time whereas carbon dioxide does not. Let me be clear that I am not making the case for methane. I am just making a point. From our perspective, we are trying to put in place that security piece on a transition. We recognise that the wind is not always blowing, the sun is not always shining and battery storage is not where it needs to be right now. Of course in all of those there will be greater advances and I have indicated that we have great hope for hydrogen and ammonia as the ultimate enablers to decarbonise our entire energy mix. Instead of depending on electrons, which is the electrification everybody is talking about, there is a recognition now here and across Europe that we will need some liquid or gas molecules as part of the future. Hydrogen is more likely to be the source of that energy. The Department is working on a longer-term strategy on hydrogen. We have had good engagement on it. I spoke at a couple of events recently. As part of the pre-Presidency work Hydrogen Ireland had brought its counterparts from around Europe to an event in UCD to show that there are opportunities emerging here from the potential for hydrogen as we capture more offshore wind and convert to hydrogen. There is a better future ahead. The Trojan horse here is about getting away from fossil fuels and towards a cleaner, safer and more secure supply of a resource and an energy that is within our own remit and grasp. I thank the Senators for their contributions. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Nessa Cosgrove  Some \u20ac900 million is to be spent on the development of these. It is a lot of money to be investing. If it is going to be temporary why not invest it in renewable energy that is not going to be temporary? Nine hundred million euro is a lot of money. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Timmy Dooley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Timmy-Dooley.S.2002-09-12","memberCode":"Timmy-Dooley.S.2002-09-12","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Timmy Dooley  It is, but it is not an either-or situation. If \u20ac1 billion could sort it out with more batteries, wind or solar then that is the route we would be taking. We are investing very significant amounts of money in our electricity grid. This year, the State will put about \u20ac3.8 billion into EirGrid and ESB Networks to strengthen the grid to enable it to take more renewables. That will allow them to borrow about \u20ac18 billion, which will be spent between now and 2030. The State is making very large investments in our overall energy architecture and infrastructure. That notwithstanding, there is - for want of a better expression - a gaping hole in our energy security. I would much prefer to see \u20ac1 billion being spent on anything else than on this but it is an imperative. It has been identified as a very significant risk to our energy security. It would have a long-term impact on our economy, not just on our hospitals and schools and those that use energy but on some of our large energy users that are very large employers. The negative impact of a loss of gas could do very significant damage to the reputation of the country, which has taken a lot of time to build up. It has been built on the back of successive Governments' industrial policies and Ireland's attractiveness for inward investment. The IDA and others have put so much time and effort into it. It would be remiss of any Government in possession of a report on our energy security that identifies a strategic risk not to respond in the way we are doing, the very significant cost notwithstanding. It is the appropriate thing to do in the circumstances that we find ourselves in. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanne Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joanne Collins  I move amendment No. 4:  In page 9, between lines 32 and 33, to insert the following:  \u201c \u201ctemporary\u201d has the meaning that a Strategic Emergency Gas Reserve under this Act and all future Acts relating to its construction, operation, maintenance and decommissioning shall be in operation for a limited time frame of 10 years only;\u201cthe Regulator\u201d means the Commission for the Regulation of Utilities;\u201d. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 2 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":""},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 3 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"NEW SECTION"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanne Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joanne Collins  I move amendment No. 5:  In page 10, between lines 26 and 27, to insert the following:  \u201c Expenses  4 . (1) The expenses incurred by the Minister in the administration of this Act shall, to such extent as may be sanctioned by the Minister for Public Expenditure, Infrastructure,Public Service Reform and Digitalisation, be paid out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas.  (2) The expenses to establish a Strategic Emergency Gas Reserve under this Act and all future Acts relating to its construction, operation, maintenance and decommissioning will not be socialised across household and SME energy bills.  (3) The Minister must mandate that the CRU carries out an assessment on the impact of the expenses incurred on household bills under this Act and all future Acts relating to construction, operation, maintenance and decommissioning of a Strategic Emergency Gas Reserve.\u201d.  I will keep this very brief. This amendment is around the cost of this facility not being passed on to households. At a time when bills are so high for energy in this country it is something about which we seek an amendment. The amendment protects consumers from footing the bill for this facility. Families and small businesses are already under enough pressure from high energy costs. Before any costs are imposed, the CRU should assess the impact and ensure that these expenses are not simply added to electricity and gas bills for the public. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Timmy Dooley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Timmy-Dooley.S.2002-09-12","memberCode":"Timmy-Dooley.S.2002-09-12","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Timmy Dooley  I thank the Senator. This amendment relates to the cost recovery mechanism that will apply to the strategic gas emergency reserve. The standard approach for cost recovery for security of supply measures and investments to meet EU regulations is through the existing regulatory framework and achieved over the lifetime of the asset. Identifying opportunities to minimise the potential impact of this cost on energy consumers is a key work stream of the project and is currently under way. The scope of this consenting legislation is limited to what is necessary to allow an application for development consent to be submitted later this year, which is critical to achieving accelerated delivery of the project. It is intended, as I mentioned previously in relation to one of the other amendments, to bring a memo to Government later this year to draft the strategic gas emergency reserve operational Bill. There will be provisions contained in that relating to the operation, use and cost recovery mechanism, as well as a number of other policy matters identified by Oireachtas Members in the pre-legislative scrutiny report, which was done, as Senators know, with the committee. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 4 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"NEW SECTIONS"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pat Casey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Pat Casey)  Amendments Nos. 6 and 34 are related and may be discussed together, by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanne Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joanne Collins  I move amendment No. 6:  In page 10, between lines 31 and 32, to insert the following:  \" State-led  5 . (1) The Strategic Emergency Gas Reserve constructed, operated and maintained under this Act and all future Acts relating to its construction, operation, maintenance and decommissioning will be a State-led asset.  (2) Any permission granted under this Act and all future Acts relating to construction, operation, maintenance and decommissioning of a Strategic Emergency Gas Reserve must be explicitly limited to a public body only.\u201d.  This amendment relates to the facility being State-led, which we have been calling for since the beginning. Energy security is a matter of national interest. This amendment ensures that any strategic gas reserve remains in public ownership and under State control. Essential infrastructure should serve the public interest rather than private commercial interests. We submitted amendments both here and in the D\u00e1il and Seanad because we believe that energy security, as with food security or any kind of security for this country, should be State-owned. We should not give our gas or electricity to outside State companies. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patricia Stephenson","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Patricia Stephenson  When the Minister first introduced the legislation, the facility was specifically referred to as State-led and that it would be a State-owned gas storage facility. We have not had the assurances from the Minister that the facility will be State-owned. Well, pardon me, the Minister has said that it will be State-owned, but that is not legislated for in the Bill. This is about making sure that the line in the Title of the Bill reflects that it will be State-led and State-owned. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Timmy Dooley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Timmy-Dooley.S.2002-09-12","memberCode":"Timmy-Dooley.S.2002-09-12","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Timmy Dooley  As the Senators have identified, the amendments relate to the ownership of the strategic gas emergency reserve. The strategic reserve will be in the form of a floating storage regasification unit, which is the ship that we talked about. It is to be owned on behalf of the State by the system operator, Gas Networks Ireland, which Senators, and particularly those who are members of the committee, will be well familiar with. An application for development under the project-specific pathway provided for in the Bill is limited to Gas Networks Ireland or such other public body as may be specified by the Minister. Further legislation and policy measures will, as I said, be brought forward later this year to ensure that the operation of the gas reserve is in accordance with the Government decision of March 2025, which was very clear that it would be in State ownership. I have already rehashed for Senators on a number of occasions the fact that the decision was taken not to involve private enterprise. It will be off market or out of market where it concerns the supply of gas to the reserve. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pat Casey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Pat Casey)  Amendments Nos. 7 and 28 are related and may be discussed together, by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanne Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joanne Collins  I move amendment No. 7:  In page 10, between lines 31 and 32, to insert the following:  \" Gas demand  5 . (1) The Minister shall ensure that a Strategic Emergency Gas Reserve established under this Act and all future Acts relating to its construction, operation, maintenance and decommissioning does not lead to an increase in gas demand.  (2) The Minister, within 12 months of the commencement of this Act, shall lay an annual report before both Houses of the Oireachtas which demonstrates that the Strategic Emergency Gas Reserve established under this Act and all future Acts relating to its construction, operation, maintenance and decommissioning is not leading to an increase in gas demand.\".  This amendment relates to the increase of gas demand. This amendment relates to the reserve and security of supply so that it is not going to be for outside vested interests when it comes to gas consumption. This amendment requires the Minister to demonstrate annually that the reserve is not driving greater dependence on fossil fuels. The Minister knows that we have an okay, if not good, track record in this country so far in trying to come off fossil fuels. We have used an awful lot of initiatives. It would be nice to know that this does not push us backwards from where we are at the moment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Nessa Cosgrove  With amendment No. 28, which we have submitted, we would replace the existing section 33 with a new section. We are spelling out the hard-won protections of the climate Act. This is the third time that the Government has adopted anti-climate policy. There is the Critical Infrastructure Act, the Dublin Airport (Capacity) Bill and now this legislation. The Government does not want to go down as the anti-climate Government, but there is risk of that happening if these protections are not put in. We tabled these amendments so that these protections would be put into the legislation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alice-Mary Higgins  This amendment removes section 33. As I said, section 33 is yet another disapplication of the climate Act. This is becoming a pattern. The Government seems to acknowledge that the climate Act exists but thinks it does not apply to anything it wants to do. That is not how it works. It is not how climate works. It is not how climate science works. Emissions do not stop hitting the atmosphere because the Government has a really good reason why it wants to do something. That is not how it works. It is damaging the credibility of the Government, a Government that is going to be representing Europe at the Conference of the Parties, COP, in Turkey later this year, if it says that we have a climate and development Act but disapplies it all the time.  This amendment would replace section 30. The new section 30 would keep the application of the Climate Action and Low Carbon Development Act. We do not have time to go through it because of the guillotine, unfortunately, but amendment No. 28 sets out what it means to be thinking about the sectoral emissions ceilings and the carbon budgets when it comes to the management of gas. We spell out all the many ways that what is going to happen here is likely to be extremely relevant for the purposes of the Climate Action and Low Carbon Development Act. There are so many ways in which the Act is relevant to what is being proposed and it is being disapplied. As I say, because of the time limitations I cannot go through the list of ways but this is really dangerous. It is not just symbolically bad. In practical terms, it is a very poor decision. It will lead to a number of subsequent poor decisions within the construction, planning and operation of the facility. There are so many points at which this project should be checked against the climate Act - not just in the general concept of it but in its operation and construction. Instead of doing that, instead of checking it repeatedly against the climate change Act, at each decision point we are suspending it altogether. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Timmy Dooley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Timmy-Dooley.S.2002-09-12","memberCode":"Timmy-Dooley.S.2002-09-12","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Timmy Dooley  I thank the Senator. From our perspective, the fact that the reserve is State-led and transitional in nature, meaning it is for emergency-use only, will ensure that it does not support increased gas consumption. That has been the kernel of the issue for us, with a view to minimising the impact of greenhouse gas emissions, as well as mitigating the risk of standard fossil fuel assets. I am being somewhat repetitive, but the single purpose here is to provide security. It is not about growing the use of fossil fuels. It is quite the opposite. We have a clear policy agenda around where we are going to power our economy and where we are going in terms of electrification. I have been open with Senators about the challenges we face for electrification out to 2050 as we try to get to net zero. Doing that without the continued use of some gas or liquid fuel will be difficult, based on the science of the here and now.  That is where we see hydrogen as being a potential component of the energy mix. We need to get there, however, and we need to do so with as much of the potential risk covered as we can. It is not about trying to reduce the price of energy by bringing in another more harmful fossil fuel. It is quite the opposite. That is where we are aligned in terms of our objective but I know that the Senator views it differently and I recognise that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alice-Mary Higgins  If it was aligned with the climate objective, it would be aligned with the Climate Act. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanne Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joanne Collins  I move amendment No.8:  In page 10, between lines 31 and 32, to insert the following:   \u201cTemporary and emergency use   5. (1) The Minister shall ensure that a Strategic Emergency Gas Reserve established under this Act and all future Acts relating to its construction, operation, maintenance and decommissioning is temporary and for emergency use only.  (2) The Minister shall lay a report before both Houses of the Oireachtas annually which demonstrates that the Strategic Emergency Gas Reserve is temporary and for emergency use only.\u201d. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pat Casey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Pat Casey)  Amendments Nos. 9 and 18 are related and may be discussed together. Is that agreed? Agreed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanne Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joanne Collins  I move amendment No .9:  In page 10, between lines 31 and 32, to insert the following:   \u201cMeaningful public consultation   5. The Minister shall ensure meaningful public participation, including\u2014  (a) accessible publication of all technical material,  (b) community impact assessments, and  (c) public hearings where significant local effects are identified.\u201d.  This amendment is around consultation. Communities deserve to be properly informed and consulted about infrastructure of this scale. This amendment provides for accessible information, community impact assessments and public hearings where significant local impacts are identified. As the Minister of State knows from living in County Clare with wind farms and whatnot, consultation is important because it can be dragged out as if the consultation side for the public is bypassed, they can think there is something going on that may not be going on. It is to ensure that the public are on board and consulted with hearings or public meetings. If this goes ahead, which it will, this proposed amendment would ensure that there is not uproar, litigations and judicial reviews whereby everything gets dragged out. It is just to keep the public informed and consulted throughout. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alice-Mary Higgins  Amendment No. 18 seeks to ensure that if there are going to be environmental impact assessments, they will include the evaluations of the vulnerability of the development to risks of major accidents or disasters relevant to the project and the direct or indirect impacts of the development on human health, safety and the well-being of the adjacent communities. That is not me making up some language. That was a recommendation of the committee and those are factors within environmental impact assessment reports. There are characteristics commonly used in environmental impact assessment reports and the decision was made in the drafting of this Bill to not include those established areas of impact assessment, such as the risk of major accidents and disasters and the direct and indirect impacts of the development on human health, safety and the well-being of adjacent communities. Why would we have an environmental impact assessment that does not include these two factors, specifically when the committee, as well as local communities who spoke to the committee, called for those to be included? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Nessa Cosgrove  We are obviously going to oppose the Bill, but this is trying to strengthen it, and we hope that the Government will consider putting it in so that if this facility is going to be built, there is some commitment that safety has to be the priority in it. That is all this proposed amendment is trying to do, and we hope that the Government will consider accepting it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Timmy Dooley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Timmy-Dooley.S.2002-09-12","memberCode":"Timmy-Dooley.S.2002-09-12","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Timmy Dooley  I thank the Senators and, as I have said, I recognise their bona fides and their good faith. Any application for approval to carry out designated development under this process will be subject to environmental impact assessment and appropriate assessment. Key features of this process are a public notice of an application and publication of the application, as well as public consultation on the contents of the application. Members of the public and designated authorities may also make submissions and observations as they would to the Minister relating to the determination of an application by the Minister, and these submissions must be considered when the Minister is making a decision on an application for designated development under the Bill.  A robust, fit-for-purpose gas safety framework is essential to protect lives and property, and it is of the utmost priority as we seek to deliver the strategic gas emergency reserve. Liquified natural gas is one of the main methods used for storing natural gas, and it is a method deployed at scale internationally and subject to thorough international and EU legislation and regulation.  On the point about consultation, on Tuesday of next week I have organised for members of the local community to meet with Gas Networks Ireland, GNI, which is very much part of that engagement. It rightly recognises that there will be concerns about a large-scale project like that. GNI had a number of engagements in the local community where its representatives were available for a number of hours in the evening to allow people to come and chat through their concerns. That is advancing with the committee that has been established because like any other major piece of critical infrastructure, there is a community benefit fund and we need to look at that for the next piece of legislation in terms of how that is recognised, whether it be statutorily or otherwise. I certainly would favour that piece of it. There is also then the putting in place of the appropriate governance that is necessary to manage whatever that funding stream is to assist the community and see some benefit and gain for it. That is very much part of our thinking there, so we are aligned on that. I will not be able to take the amendment but I get the spirit of what the Senators are at. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pat Casey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Pat Casey)  Amendments Nos. 10, 26 and 27 are related and may be discussed together by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanne Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joanne Collins  I move amendment No. 10:  In page 10, between lines 31 and 32, to insert the following:   \u201cDecommissioning   5. The Minister shall, within 12 months of the commencement of this Act, outline a plan for decommissioning any Strategic Emergency Gas Reserve constructed, operated, maintained or decommissioned under this Act and all future Acts relating to its construction, operation, maintenance and decommissioning.\u201d.  Amendment No. 10 is around decommissioning. If this is a temporary reserve, which is in the name of the Bill, we reckon there also should be a strategy put in place for its decommissioning, whenever that may be, and that it is not left to the next government to come up with a strategy. Looking into the future, if this is five, ten, 15 or 20 years down the line, we could have an anti-green Government and having a decommissioning plan in place beforehand would alleviate the fear that this could go completely sideways. I know that the Minister of State hopes that it is so but Fianna F\u00e1il may not always be in government. Just in case. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Timmy Dooley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Timmy-Dooley.S.2002-09-12","memberCode":"Timmy-Dooley.S.2002-09-12","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Timmy Dooley  Maybe we will have Sinn F\u00e9in in at some stage and we will have a grand coalition. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanne Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joanne Collins  Just in case. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Lorraine Clifford-Lee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Lorraine-Clifford-Lee.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Lorraine-Clifford-Lee.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Lorraine Clifford-Lee  Do not worry, Senator, we would not allow that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanne Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joanne Collins  It is about having a plan in place for if or when we do not need the reserve and that it is not left up to the Government of the day. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alice-Mary Higgins  We are also looking for a proper plan on decommissioning and for the CRU to be able to take the Climate Act properly into line in its operation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Timmy Dooley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Timmy-Dooley.S.2002-09-12","memberCode":"Timmy-Dooley.S.2002-09-12","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Timmy Dooley  I thank the Senators for the amendment. I would welcome having all of them in government as some stage. I have no doubt that they would find it challenging on occasion, maybe not as challenging as me because they would not have the firepower coming back at them to challenge them as well as they are doing to us on this occasion.  The scope of this legislation is limited to what is necessary to allow an application to get through development and to get the consent to be submitted towards the end of 2026. This is critical to achieving the accelerated delivery of the project, which is at the core of this legislation. As I said previously, there will be further legislation and policy measures that we will bring forward later in the year to ensure the operation of the strategic gas reserve in accordance with the decision that was taken back in March and that will also include addressing the end-of-life provisions.  I do not want to create any false hope but as we progress by bringing more energy ashore by getting more renewables on the grid, the expectation is, of course, that the dependence on fossil fuels will reduce significantly, particularly in respect of gas used for electricity generation. That is obviously an important part of it. There are other elements of our economy where we have a good bit more to do, particularly on transportation, etc., and there is a lot of work on there.  However, I get the Senator's point about having a plan towards the end of life and her point about any future Government that may not be as environmentally conscious as the Senator suggests we are; I thank her for that, I appreciate it. I have no doubt that were any of the Members in government it would remain, but we can never predict what the future holds. Neither, of course, can you prevent a future Government from making its own decisions that might differ with where we are at now.  We have to look at this practically, and we need to send signals as to what would constitute the elimination of risk and what would allow you to be in a position not to have that security reserve in place. We will be addressing that at a later stage, and I am sure we will try to find some common ground on that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pat Casey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Pat Casey)  Before I bring Members back in, I welcome guests of the Ceann Comhairle to the Distinguished Visitors Gallery today. We hope they enjoy their day. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pat Casey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Pat Casey)  Amendments Nos. 11, 23 and 24 are related and may be taken together, by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanne Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joanne Collins  I move amendment No. 11:  In page 10, between lines 31 and 32, to insert the following:  \u201c Review  5. Any approval granted under this Act shall be subject to review every 3 years.\u201d.  Amendment No. 11 concerns review, in particular, a three-year review. Given Ireland's energy landscape changes throughout time, it proposes there would be a mandatory review every three years to ensure the reserve remains necessary and appropriate in light of developments of renewable energy storage and interconnection. It is really just to keep a review on it, which I do not think is a bad thing. I like a good review. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Timmy Dooley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Timmy-Dooley.S.2002-09-12","memberCode":"Timmy-Dooley.S.2002-09-12","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Timmy Dooley  I thought we were going to get a bigger reveal there. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanne Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joanne Collins  It keeps us all on our feet, and it is not every year; we have given the Government a bit of leeway there. Every three years is fairly reasonable to ensure it is doing what it needs to and is not going the wrong way. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alice-Mary Higgins  We have similar amendments in respect of a review. We are looking for a review every five years, which is even more reasonable. However, it is also not just looking at the continued necessity as regard threat or risk but also at what the alternatives may be. If we are in a position where battery and renewables can meet that risk at that point, then we should not be going for this as a preferred option.  Again, we are seeking extra components to the review. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Timmy Dooley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Timmy-Dooley.S.2002-09-12","memberCode":"Timmy-Dooley.S.2002-09-12","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Timmy Dooley  While not wanting to sound repetitive, I will. Effectively, this is about the planning and permitting we need to get through to get the fast-tracking of the construction phase. The Bill coming through later this year is where that discussion can take place. I agree with the Senator that a good review can be welcome; there is nothing wrong with it.  As to what the timing might be, we certainly will be looking at that. It was probably part of the discussions and if it was not, it will form part of discussions around pre-legislative scrutiny of that Bill. That is where Senators can have dialogue with our officials who will be drafting this. Certainly, the principle behind what the Senators are suggesting is a point well made. I do not see a reason for this at this stage but I may have to defend a different position in a couple of months because the legislation has not been put together or fully formatted yet. However, the principle is certainly a sound one. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 5"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alice-Mary Higgins  I move amendment No. 12:  In page 11, to delete line 10 and substitute the following:  \u201c(e) the importation and offloading of LNG to the FSRU, where such LNG has been produced by a country which is a party to the Paris Agreement 2015, has not been produced by means of hydraulic fracturing;\u201d. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Nessa Cosgrove  I move amendment No. 13:  In page 11, between lines 13 and 14, to insert the following:  \u201c(2) Notwithstanding subsection (1) , the importation, offloading, storage or regasification of hydraulically fractured gas shall not constitute designated development for the purposes of this Act and shall not be carried out at any facility approved under section 29 .\u201d "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 5 agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pat Casey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Pat Casey)  Amendment No. 14 has been ruled out of order due to a conflict with the principle of the Bill as read a second time. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment No. 14 not moved."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 6 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"NEW SECTION"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alice-Mary Higgins  I move amendment No. 15:  In page 11, between lines 26 and 27, to insert the following:  \u201c Ownership and Operation  7. (1) The designated strategic gas reserve, including any terminal, infrastructure, or facility developed under this Act, shall remain exclusively in public ownership and under State control and shall not be transferred or outsourced, in whole or in part, to any private commercial entity.  (2) The facility shall be operated solely by a designated public body for emergency energy security purposes and shall not be utilised for commercial trading of gas supplies by any private enterprise.  (3) The Minister shall not direct, permit, or authorise any send-out of gas from the designated development unless the Commission for Regulation of Utilities has formally certified to the Minister that\u2014  (a) a gas supply emergency exists that cannot be resolved by standard network balancing, and  (b) all Large Energy Users operating within the State have been curtailed to mandatory, pre-defined minimum operational electricity and natural gas consumption thresholds.  (4) For the purposes of this section, the pre-defined minimum thresholds shall be prescribed by the Commission for Regulation of Utilities.\u201d. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 7 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question, \"That section 8 stand part of the Bill\", put and declared carried."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 9"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Nessa Cosgrove  I move amendment No. 16:  In page 13, between lines 3 and 4, to insert the following:  \u201c(l) a declaration by the applicant setting out the proposed sources of liquefied natural gas to be imported to the facility and, in particular, confirming whether any proposed source involves natural gas produced by means of hydraulic fracturing;\u201d. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 9 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sections 10 and 11, inclusive, agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"NEW SECTION"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alice-Mary Higgins  I move amendment No. 17:  In page 14, between lines 23 and 24, to insert the following:  \u201c Application for exemption to the principal of third-party access  12. The Minister shall, before approval of a designated development, apply to the European Commission for an exemption to Directive 2009\/73\/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 13 July 2009, concerning common rules for the internal market in natural gas and repealing Directive 2003\/55\/EC1, Article 36(9), providing an exemption to the principal of third-party access.\u201d.  This is refers to a very important danger that has been highlighted to me, which is the danger of third parties seeking the right to access. This is something that can and has been done in other instances in the European Union. States can look for an exemption in the common rules around third party access, saying they explicitly wish to ensure there will not be third party access to this resource. Will the Minister of State apply to the European Commission for an exemption to Directive 2009\/73\/EC of the European Parliament concerning the common rules and repealing directive and seek an exemption to the principle of third party access for this facility? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Timmy Dooley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Timmy-Dooley.S.2002-09-12","memberCode":"Timmy-Dooley.S.2002-09-12","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Timmy Dooley  Again, this matter will be addressed in forthcoming legislation on the operation of the facility and those measures can be addressed as part of that. It is not drafted yet but as I said, there is an opportunity for the Senator to participate in the pre-legislative scrutiny and when it comes back to the House. However, I will not accept this amendment on the basis that I do not think it fits this legislation. However, it is an item for discussion under the operational piece. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sections 12 to 25, inclusive, agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 26"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alice-Mary Higgins  I move amendment No. 18:  In page 22, between lines 3 and 4, to insert the following:  \u201c(6) In identifying, describing, and assessing the likely significant effects of the designated development on the environment, the Environmental Impact Assessment Report in section 22 and subsequent assessment shall include an evaluation of\u2014  (a) the vulnerability of the development to risks of major accidents or disasters relevant to the project, and  (b) the direct and indirect, impacts of the development on human health, safety, and well-being of adjacent communities.\u201d "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 26 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sections 27 and 28 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 29"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pat Casey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Pat Casey)  Amendment Nos. 19 to 22, inclusive, are related and may be taken together by agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alice-Mary Higgins  I move amendment No. 19:  In page 23, line 17, after \u201cmay\u201d to insert the following:  \u201cin determining whether the designated development is necessary having regard to the purpose of this Act\u201d. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Nessa Cosgrove  I move amendment No. 20:  In page 23, line 19, after \u201cState,\u201d to insert the following:  \u201cthe State\u2019s obligations under the Climate Action and Low Carbon Development Act 2015, as amended, including in particular the obligation to pursue the transition to a climate resilient, biodiversity rich, environmentally sustainable and climate neutral economy,\u201d. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Nessa Cosgrove  I move amendment No. 21:  In page 23, line 21, after \" section 26 \" to insert \u201cand the matters specified in subsection (3) \u201d. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Nessa Cosgrove  I move amendment No. 22:  In page 23, between lines 29 and 30, to insert the following:  \u201c(3) The matters referred to in subsection (2) are:  (a) an assessment by the Commission for Regulation of Utilities, following a public consultation, of the projected impact of the designated development on domestic utility bills, including any socialisation of costs across households and small businesses;  (b) an assessment by the Minister, following a public consultation, of the potential public health impacts and security risks posed to adjacent communities, including risks arising from industrial accidents, structural failures or attacks on the facility;  (c) an updated energy security review and risk assessment prepared by the Minister, following a public consultation, evaluating contemporary geopolitical scenarios and LNG supply disruptions, impacts on national climate targets, against\u2014  (i) the accelerated deployment of renewable energy,  (ii) battery energy storage systems,  (iii) increased interconnection,  (iv) demand reduction measures for large energy users, and  (v) secondary fuel obligations;  (d) a cost-benefit analysis prepared by the Minister which shall\u2014  (i) be prepared in accordance with the Public Spending Code Infrastructure Guidelines,  (ii) assess the full capital, operational and lifecycle costs to both the Exchequer and energy consumers,  (iii) quantify the security-of-supply costs and benefits under multiple distinct energy demand and supply scenarios,  (iv) include a comparative cost assessment of reasonable alternative measures, including demand reduction, system flexibility, increased storage, interconnection and renewable energy deployment, and  (4) The Minister shall lay each assessment, review and analysis referred to in subsection (3) before each House of the Oireachtas as soon as practicable after its completion.\u201d. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pat Casey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Pat Casey)  As the time permitted for this debate has expired, I am required to put the following question in accordance with the order of the Senate of this day: \"That section 29 is hereby agreed to in Committee; in respect of each of the sections of, the section is hereby agreed to in Committee; the Title is hereby agreed to in Committee; the Bill is accordingly reported to the House without amendment; Fourth Stage is hereby completed and the Bill is hereby received for final consideration; and the Bill is hereby passed.\" "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I welcome again to the Gallery the Black family. Shay Black was here already with Erica Pagels, but Martin Black, another brother of Senator Black, is now here and is also most welcome to Seanad \u00c9ireann. Martin told me there were no hard feelings after the Dublin-Kerry game, but that Dublin was robbed. That is according to Martin. It is not the official result. I thank the Black brothers for being here.  When is it proposed to sit again? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  At 1 p.m. on Tuesday, 22 September 2026. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Is that agreed? Agreed "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an Seanad ar athl\u00f3 ar 3.14 p.m. go dt\u00ed 1 p.m., D\u00e9 M\u00e1irt, an 22 Me\u00e1n F\u00f3mhair 2026"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The Seanad adjourned at 3.14 p.m. until 1 p.m. on Tuesday, 22 September 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Development (Strategic Gas Reserve) Bill 2026: Committee and Remaining Stages"}]}}]},"contextDate":"2026-07-16"},{"debateRecord":{"house":{"showAs":"Joint Committee on Children and Equality","committeeCode":"joint_committee_on_children_and_equality","houseCode":"dail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/committee\/dail\/34\/joint_committee_on_children_and_equality","chamberType":"committee","houseNo":"34"},"chamber":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/def\/committee","showAs":"Joint Committee on Children and Equality"},"lastUpdated":"2026-07-25T02:14:50+00:00","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/joint_committee_on_children_and_equality\/2026-07-16\/debate\/main","formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/joint_committee_on_children_and_equality\/2026-07-16\/debate\/mul@\/main.xml"},"pdf":null},"date":"2026-07-16","counts":{"contributorCount":9,"divisionCount":0,"debateSectionCount":2,"questionCount":0,"billCount":0},"debateType":"debate","debateSections":[{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/joint_committee_on_children_and_equality\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_2","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Business of Joint Committee","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Apologies have been received from Senators Bradley and Keogan.  I wish to take a minute to read into the public record that the joint committee, at several previous private meetings, agreed all the minutes of public and private meetings between 15 January and 2 July 2026.  We will now go into private session to consider some housekeeping matters. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" The joint committee went into private session at 9.36 a.m., suspended at 9.43 a.m. and resumed in public session at 9.46 a.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Business of Joint Committee"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/joint_committee_on_children_and_equality\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_3","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Child Protection Matters, Special Care and Special Emergency Care Arrangements: Tusla","counts":{"speechCount":220,"speakerCount":10},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Daniel Ennis","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Daniel-Ennis.D.2026-05-25","memberCode":"Daniel-Ennis.D.2026-05-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Charles Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Charles-Ward.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Charles-Ward.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Claire Kerrane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aisling Dempsey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Margaret Murphy O'Mahony","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  The item for consideration this morning is a discussion on child protection matters, special care and special emergency arrangements. We are joined at the meeting by representatives of Tusla, as follows: Ms Kate Duggan, CEO; Ms Rosarii Mannion, national director for people and change; Mr. Pat Smyth, national director for finance and corporate services; and Mr. Gerry Hone, national director of services and integration. They are all very welcome back to the committee. I congratulate them on the launch of their annual report yesterday.  Before we begin, I have a couple of housekeeping matters to go through. We have one member joining us on Teams. For that member, I give a reminder that the chat function should only be used to make the team on site aware of technical or urgent matters. There is a constitutional requirement for members to be present on the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings.  In advance of our witnesses delivering their opening statements, I advise them of the following in respect of parliamentary privilege. They are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty, as Cathaoirleach, to ensure the privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. I ask them to bear in mind that if we are talking about specific locations, they are sometimes easily identifiable.  Ms Duggan will be allocated five minutes to deliver her opening statement, which will be followed by a question-and-answer session with our members. I invite her to deliver her opening statement. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  I thank the Chair and the committee for the invitation to appear to discuss child protection matters, special care and special emergency arrangements. I am joined by my colleagues: Ms Rosarii Mannion, national director for people and change; Mr. Pat Smyth, national director for finance and corporate services; and Mr. Gerry Hone, national director of services and integration.  Tusla's mission is to support the safety and well-being of children, particularly those whose circumstances are complex or who need additional support. At the outset, it is important to highlight that staff across the country engage with tens of thousands of families every year and the majority of those interactions are positive and successful, helping people to grow up safely. As an agency, we responded to over 106,000 referrals in 2025, an increase of more than 10% since the agency was established in 2014, and almost 6,000 children and young people were in the care of Tusla. Almost nine in ten young people in the care of the State are living with loving foster carers and engaged in school and education or living in residential care homes, homes like yours or mine, where one, two, three or four young people are being looked after by caring, committed and dedicated staff.  At the end of quarter 3 of 2025, there were 2,985 young people receiving an aftercare service. Some 84% of those aged 18 to 22 in receipt of aftercare services are now in education and training. There has been a 500% increase in referrals to our separated children seeking international protection service. In 2025, there were almost 800 referrals to the service, with approximately 1,200 unaccompanied minors in care or accommodated by Tusla throughout 2025. Most of our work is preventative, supporting school attendance, ensuring childcare facilities are safe and helping families through difficult times before a crisis hits. We support thousands of families every year so that children can stay safely at home.  In relation to child safety work, we are challenged by the increasingly complex needs of a small cohort of vulnerable young people. We are seeing a marked increase in the number of children presenting with highly complex needs, including mental health challenges, substance misuse, disabilities, exploitation and behaviours linked to criminality.  In the area of special emergency arrangements, SEAs, we have acknowledged that due to our shortage of registered residential placements, we had to rely on these types of arrangements as an immediate place of safety for young people. However, we have made significant progress in how emergency placements for young people are provided and governed. From June 2026, no special emergency arrangements are used by the agency. All emergency placements instead operate as either registered private residential centres, Tusla emergency centres or private emergency placements, each with clear statutory oversight, governance and accountability.  In relation to special care, I fully acknowledge and sincerely regret the current situation where we are unable to fulfil our statutory obligations to provide timely access to special care for all young people subject to a High Court order and the impact this may have on these young people. This is because of inadequate staffing levels in special care to operate at full capacity. With the support of our parent Department, the Department of Children, Disability and Equality, we are completely focused on making every effort to increase our staffing levels in special care through expansion of qualifications, national and international recruitment campaigns, graduate sponsorship schemes, increasing third-level placements and the introduction of our social work apprenticeship and social care work-based learning programmes. We are more confident that these efforts in conjunction with the introduction of the new special care worker grade in 2025, as approved by Department of public expenditure and reform, and the new Tusla residential and special care training college, will see additional special care beds opened in 2026-27.  I have spoken publicly about the programme of reform under way across the agency since 2023. This has resulted in increased supply, recruitment and retention of staff, an increase in placement capacity, more robust oversight of third-party providers, digital transformation with the introduction of a single child and family record across all Tusla services and better access to more integrated community services for children and families across Ireland.  As an agency, we acknowledge that we continue to experience challenges in the context of such increased demand for our services and our inability to ensure that all children and families receive the right service at the right time. However, we are confident that as we continue to embed our reform programme, and with increased support, better inter-agency and intergovernmental policy commitments, that children in the care of the State should be prioritised for State services and children and families can be better supported in their communities so that all children and young people have the opportunity for better outcomes and brighter futures.  I thank the Cathaoirleach and the committee for the opportunity to engage today. I look forward to the committee's upcoming visit to our special care, residential care, separated children seeking international protection and emergency centres. I am happy to answer any questions members may have today. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  We are also looking forward to our visit. I thank Ms Duggan for facilitating us and the members of the committee for agreeing to visit during recess. It is proposed to publish the opening statement to the Oireachtas website. Is that agreed? Agreed.  I remind members they will be allocated seven minutes speaking time. This allocation must include the response from the witnesses. I will allow a brief round of questioning, if members indicate they want that. I ask members when putting their questions to adhere strictly to the agenda item under consideration and to direct their question to the witness they wish to respond. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Daniel Ennis","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Daniel-Ennis.D.2026-05-25","memberCode":"Daniel-Ennis.D.2026-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Daniel Ennis  This is my first time meeting Tusla and I am looking forward to working with it. I thank Ms Duggan for the opening statement. I see Tusla as a safety net for our young people. There are obvious tears in that safety net. Working together, we can hopefully mend them and provide better care and service options for our young people, especially the vulnerable and those who find themselves in precarious positions.  I have a couple of questions to get a better understanding. There was data relating to the number of children in care in the opening statement. Could Ms Duggan provide the committee with the most recent figures for children and young people in foster care, registered private residential centres, Tusla emergency centres and private emergency placements? On the ending of the special emergency arrangements, what structures, commitments and protections are we going to get to ensure that it is not just a rebranding or a changing of the jersey? I would like to get a better understanding of that.  Regarding Tusla's budget for registered placements, will Ms Duggan indicate whether the budget for capital expenditure has increased, decreased or remained constant over the years? As of 5 July, 78 young people were in temporary emergency accommodation, which was two fewer than the previous week, as was mentioned. Where are they placed? In what constituencies, cities or counties are they placed, without giving the exact address for obvious reasons?  The preventative piece is very important. I do a lot of work around preventative measures with children, including children in care, children in precarious positions and children in forced criminalisation, such as grooming by drug gangs. We know that children in care and the vulnerable children we are dealing with are more susceptible to that. Regarding Tusla's engagement with schools and services, in my constituency of Dublin Central, Young People at Risk, YPAR, do a lot of work with young people at risk. What is Tusla's engagement with YPAR and the other services like? When I say \"services\", I mean State bodies, national governing bodies, NGBs, and community groups in and around the Dublin Central area because we know the number of children living there who find themselves in emergency and homeless accommodation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  We would be delighted to meet the Deputy separately to go through any particular issues relating to his constituency or more generally. I will provide very high-level data. At the end of May 2026, 5,948 children were in the care of the State. That is about 3% more than the same period last year so we are seeing a marginal increase in the number of children coming into care. Of those numbers, almost 86% were in foster care, which is something we are very proud of. It is the highest level in Europe. There is a real focus on continuing to increase recruitment and retention of foster carers so that children in care can be in foster care. Out of that, 626 children, or about 11%, are in residential care across the community and voluntary sector, Tusla and the private sector. There are 255 young people who would be in care but might be in a disability-specific centre, supported lodgings, a temporary emergency or emergency placement or an out-of-State placement. We can give the Deputy a full breakdown if he wants those figures. Mr. Smyth will talk the Deputy through the budget for capital expenditure.  On temporary emergency placements, in child protection there is always a need for emergency placement if a section 12 is invoked by An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. If there is an immediate breakdown in a home, residential or foster care placement, we have to have that available. To put it in some context, about 1% of children in care need access to an emergency placement. This week, 58 young people are in what we describe as a temporary emergency placement.  I will use a very high-level example to reassure the Deputy that it is not a changing of the narrative or a changing of the jersey. At the end of June, there were 76 young people in a special emergency arrangement and rightly so. The public, this committee, the Government and everybody wanted to make sure because the biggest concern we had was that those placements were not registered or regulated so there was no external oversight. While Tusla had internal oversight of them, there was no external oversight. What has changed now is that about one third of those young people are now in children's residential centres so those centres are registered. We have worked with those providers. New providers did enter the market and we have spent the past 12 to 18 months working with those providers to help them achieve the standards they needed to achieve to become registered centres.  One third of the young people in question are in registered centres which, like any children's residential service, are subject to inspection and monitoring by the Tusla alternative care inspection monitoring service. It is important to say that this is the service that monitors and inspects every private or voluntary centre. We would like it to be HIQA and have advocated for that function to transfer to HIQA. HIQA is aware of that and that is something we really want to push for and to happen.  The next third of young people are in centres that were unable to achieve registration. The providers were unable to achieve registration so we have taken those under the governance of Tusla and they are now subject to inspection and monitoring by HIQA like any Tusla residential centre.  Regarding the other third of young people, any newly opened centre has 45 days to register.  There may be an emergency tonight. The young person involved would need to be placed in a centre. It may not be centre that is registered today, but within 45 days it has to be registered under the Act or that child would be transferred to a Tusla-governed centre. That is the timeline of 45 days, which was not in place before and in the context of which we would engage with the provided involved in order to seek to support them to become registered. At a very high level, that is the difference. All the young people involved are in those placements. Mr. Smyth might talk about the budget capital expenditure.  We have run out of time, but one of the priorities for us, work under the reform programme, regarding the engagement is that commissioning is now devolved regionally and at network level. Every network will be working with community groups and with the community and voluntary sector to understand what the needs of the local population are and whether providers have been engaged. If it would be helpful, I would be happy to meet with the Deputy separately to discuss the matter. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I will let Mr. Smyth reply to Deputy Ennis in the second round. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Charles Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Charles-Ward.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Charles-Ward.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Charles Ward  I thank the witnesses for coming in. Social care workers have raised concerns about the use of security personnel. They report that security personnel are stepping in to restrain children before a full therapeutic intervention can be carried out. The deployment of untrained security staff is having a serious effect in the context of the ability of social care workers to perform their duties. There are reports of security staff removing social care workers from rooms against their will. There are concerns that while staff need be protected, there is uncertainty among security workers as to when intervention is required in these settings. What training is given to security personnel from Tusla before they are deployed in these extremely challenging settings? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  I am concerned to hear what the Deputy had to say. In terms of our experience, as he rightly stated, we have an obligation to keep children. However, under the health and safety Act, we also have an obligation to keep staff safe. We have had significant incidents of violence, harassment and aggression within the service. That is not in any way to put blame on the young people involved. Those young people have experienced significant trauma. Their behaviours reflect an escalation in that trauma. Often, they act out. Injuries may be caused to staff as a result. When we looked at this, we found that there was a need to employ close protection personnel, which is how they are described. We went out to tender for the contract and the process in that regard was successful. These personnel are only used in exceptional circumstances. They do not replace staff. We have worked very hard with HIQA on a policy to ensure that they meet all the standards involved and our regulatory requirements. That was very important. HIQA is the regulator and the independent voice of safety in respect of children and young people.  What we have seen is a significant reduction in the level of violence, harassment and aggression. We only bring security personnel in on an exceptional basis. They are additional to our rota and are not counted as staff. They are there to protect staff. They receive therapeutic crisis intervention training. What we have heard is that staff are very slow to want to engage with this, but the request for it comes from the service. The service comes and says that it is concerned about the safety of staff. We went through a tender process to ensure that we had companies that were used to this work. These personnel are only deployed in line with the policy agreed with HIQA. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Charles Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Charles-Ward.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Charles-Ward.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Charles Ward  How many incidences of physical restraint have occurred in residential areas in the past two years? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  I do not have the figure for that with me. I will send it to the Deputy afterwards. We will take a note of that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Charles Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Charles-Ward.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Charles-Ward.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Charles Ward  How many people were restrained by security personnel as opposed to registered social care workers? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  Again, I do not have that data with me. I will get it to the Deputy early next week. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Charles Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Charles-Ward.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Charles-Ward.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Charles Ward  I have not been told that time is up, so I will keep on going. The Cathaoirleach can keep me straight.  Social care workers have expressed concerns about the new Tusla college. They say that those who graduate from it will be deployed to the most serious and challenging settings but that they will not even be CORU registered or regulated. Will Ms Duggan explain how this prioritises the safety of children? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  My colleague Ms Mannion will answer that question. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosarii Mannion","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosarii Mannion  I am happy to meet with the Deputy and to give him a tour of the college if he would like. The college was established primarily in the interests of us being self-sufficient and to facilitate us in producing our own pipeline of staff. The curriculum is vigorous. It involves three months in the college and three months in placement, followed by an assessment. If colleagues are deemed suitable to work, they are then deployed to various settings, including special care and other settings, across the agency. We have found so far that the staff coming through are of a high quality and are working very well. There have been no incidents of violence, harassment and aggression. This is broader than special care and social care; it is about a building platform to bride the gap between college and the workplace in order to ensure that, as much as possible, we are setting new graduates up for success.  Regarding the question on qualified social care workers, we have arrangements whereby we have expanded the qualifications. Anybody on expanded qualifications may work in our setting. Only somebody who is registered with CORU as a social care worker, which is a title protected in law since last year, may call themselves a social care worker. However, we are moving towards multidisciplinary team working. We want colleagues with addiction, community and youth work and, indeed, sporting qualifications. There are a broad range of qualifications there that make up the composition of effective multidisciplinary teams that can then engage and meet the holistic needs of children. It is not always a case that one single discipline can meet the needs of children who we serve. As the Deputy knows, the needs are complex and far-reaching. The best model is a fully functioning multidisciplinary team. From the evidence, we know that what colleagues want are safe places of work, safe systems and safe and effective colleagues. That is the model that we work through in terms of our people's strategy and, in particular, the use of our Tulsa internal training college. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Charles Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Charles-Ward.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Charles-Ward.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Charles Ward  Regarding the thousands of social care workers who have gone through registering with CORU, does this mean nothing for them or will there be a distinct forward transitional period of them moving over and enhancing their qualifications? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosarii Mannion","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosarii Mannion  It may be a case of needing to enhance qualifications. Nobody is deployed to the workplace until we are happy that they meet the standard and are qualified. There is nobody who is unqualified working across our services. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  I welcome the witnesses and thank Ms Duggan for her opening statement. Regarding some of the data in the opening statement, the agency responded to over 106,000 referrals in 2025. What proportion of those referrals met the threshold for the assignment of a social worker? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  I will give the Deputy very broad numbers. We know that about 60% of our referrals relate to children, young people and families who require that early intervention and support perspective. At any one time within the past year, there were about 23,000 children and young people that were open to social work and needed a social worker. In the context of allocation, what we have to do is make sure that we prioritise the allocation of social workers to those who most need them . We have spoken here before about the challenge that we have with the supply of social workers across the State. It is very clear that social workers can only do certain statutory duties. This comes back to what my colleague Ms Mannion spoke about in terms of expanded qualifications. At any one time, about 90% of our children in care have allocated social workers. Where a child does not have an allocated social worker, they may have an allocated social care worker to meet their needs, but that person will not perform the statutory duties of a social worker. In the context of our overall caseload, about 78% or 79% of children open to our safety teams would be allocated social workers. The others would be allocated social care workers to meet their needs. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  To be clear, if a referral is made where there is a concern that a child is at risk of abuse----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  They are screened within 24 hours by a social worker. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  They are screened by a social worker. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  That social worker will decide whether the referral requires further intervention. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  Are all those calls screened by a social worker? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  Okay. Very good.  The opening statement states:  Almost nine in ten young people in the care of the State are living with loving foster carers and engaged in school and education or living in residential care homes ...  Is that one in ten who is living in a residential care home? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  Yes, it is about that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  So nine in ten are with foster carers and one in ten is in a care home. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  At the moment it is 87%, so almost one----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  Yes, and the description of them is \"where one, two, three or four young people are being looked after by caring, committed and dedicated staff\", but the setting is a residential setting. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  Last week we had the Children's Residential and Aftercare Voluntary Association, CRAVA, in with us. It had a number of concerns, one being that it felt a rebalance was required of preference towards the voluntary sector capacity to reduce over-reliance on for-profit care. Do we have the data as to those facilities Ms Duggan has described, \"where one, two, three or four young people are being looked after by caring, committed and dedicated staff\"? What proportion of those settings is run by the voluntary sector and what proportion is run by for-profit organisations? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  At a point in time in the year, if we took 535 young people who are in residential care, 71 of them were in community and voluntary sector placements. Then there was the percentage, which Mr. Smyth can give the Deputy, who were in Tusla centres and then the percentage who were in private centres. We set out about three years ago to seek to rebalance the provision of residential care away from private residential into community and voluntary and Tusla-led facilities, and that is a commitment we hold dear. What has been challenging for us, on one hand, is the number of separated children. I said that 1,200 had to be accommodated last year alone. As to how quickly that came upon us, the private sector was able to scale at a quicker capacity than the public sector in terms of having the infrastructure available. It is also important to say that we have engaged all the time with the community and voluntary sector to seek to increase the provision of care that it provides and it has not been able to do that. Currently, in July, it is funded for 94 beds. We fund it irrespective of whether the bed is occupied or not. That is a challenge. Within the private sector we pay only for a bed that is occupied. Out of the 94 beds it was funded for, it was able to have only 71 of those beds open, and that is a concern for us.  In addition, I listened to the hearing last week and, as I said, we are very much supportive of the community and voluntary sector, but we have seen in the past 12 months that the community and voluntary sector has discharged nine young people out of its services into a special emergency arrangement. It is very important that we work collectively to recognise the challenges that are there, both from the point of view of the sector being able to recruit staffing and in terms of capital expenditure. That is the biggest challenge it has. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  Is staffing the reason there are 23 beds vacant? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  Some of it is to do with staffing and some of it is to do with the fact that the sector feels there is a risk to the health and safety of its staff who are there. All of us are challenged by the fact that we have responsibility to children and young people, that we hold them in their stable placement, that we provide wraparound supports, that we support them and that we do not discharge them into special emergency arrangements. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  Ms Duggan said 12 were discharged. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  Nine. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  Excuse me. That was in 2025. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  It was in the past 12 months. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  How many are residing in Tusla centres? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Pat Smyth","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Pat Smyth  We had 116 at the end of May, so between the numbers in the community and voluntary sector and in our own centres, about 35% or thereabouts are between State and voluntary placements. The balance then is private. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  If I may ask about the 1,200 unaccompanied minors in care, are they part of the 6,000 young people in total? No. They are additional to the 6,000. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  Tusla has responsibility for 7,200 young people. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  Over the whole year, there were 1,200 young people. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  Over the course of the year. Okay. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  At the moment, just under 500 separated children are being accommodated or supported. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  They are referred to Tusla from----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  The International Protection Office. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  Is that because of Tusla's remit specifically to care for the children? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  They are not being referred over any concern for their safety or health or well-being. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  They are unaccompanied. They are on their own, with no known adult to support them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Nessa Cosgrove  I thank the witnesses for coming in. Last week was really important in that CRAVA was in and it outlined that if we are looking at aftercare, it is about the provision of a service rather than about money. Ms Duggan said there were young people who were moved from a voluntary and community setting into special emergency care. For that to happen, I imagine that things must have been very difficult and maybe the ratio of staff to children was at play, although I do not know. In fairness to CRAVA, it said last week that Tusla is very supportive but that it is running on a very tight budget. Money is always limiting it in developing its own capacity as regards buildings. When young people are in care, would the witnesses say that the voluntary and community sector or Tusla itself always comes ahead of the private sector? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  As I said, we want to expand Tusla or the community and voluntary sector over the private sector. That is our absolute commitment as a public service. It is very important to say that we pay the community and voluntary sector a grant, irrespective of the number of young people who are on placement. That is something we do not do in the private sector. In addition, the cost we give the community and voluntary sector is actually more than that which we give the private sector, not just in terms of bed occupancy levels. Mr. Smyth can give the detail if the Senator wants it. The cost of a private placement works out just slightly lower than the cost of a Tusla or a community and voluntary one. We also have a scheme in place with the community and voluntary sector whereby if there is particular damage done to a property or an instance of concern, the provider can apply for funding. I recognise the challenge the community and voluntary sector faces. We value the relationship with it and we want to support it to scale, but it is struggling, I think, to get the staffing. More important, I think the biggest challenge for the community and voluntary sector is not having the ability to fund capital investment in terms of building residential homes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Nessa Cosgrove  Whose responsibility is that, though? Surely it is not the sector's. If it gets a certain amount of money, is it for Tusla to say to the Department that it has to provide more money? If you are measuring key performance indicators or looking at outcomes, is it just based on cost----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  No. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Nessa Cosgrove  -----or is it based on social outcomes as well? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  Yes. God, it would never be a decision just around cost. We are saying the principle we have is that, as a public sector body, we want further investment. We want to rebalance the provision of care into Tusla statutory centres and community and voluntary centres. They are separate entities, and there are separate governance structures and separate boards. It is a wider discussion about whether the State will invest capital in separate entities. That is a wider discussion about the State's decision around capital investment in the community and voluntary sector. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Nessa Cosgrove  If religious organisations had buildings available, would it be an option for them to work with the voluntary and community sector to increase its capacity? Is it Tusla that is looking to increase that capacity? The last thing we want to do is go down the route of private sector provision for the most vulnerable children in the State.  At all costs, we should avoid giving that over to private companies because their ultimate game is to make money. That is what a private company does. Are there ways to work around this, perhaps with other Departments, so capacity can be increased within the voluntary and community sector in terms of buildings? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  I suppose it is about what is within our control. We worked a lot with the voluntary sector in 2023 and 2024 in terms of the cost-of-living increase and the inflationary measures, and we secures an extra \u20ac5.2 million for the providers we work with to support them to bridge some of that funding gap. As part of the Workplace Relations Commission agreement, additional funding has been given for staffing levels. In terms of the capital infrastructure we get now, we are only starting. From 2018 to 2023, Tusla did not have the full capital investment it needed to open additional residential units. It is costly to open them. We have invested and opened our own statutory residential units over that period, which has been great. A decision will have to come, from beyond Tusla, around the State's position on capital investment in the community and voluntary sector. We will work with that, obviously. We advocate for and represent the community and voluntary sector all the time.  Where possible, particularly in our separated children service, we have put a hybrid model in place. That is a Tusla-owned building, but one of the community and voluntary providers is staffing and running it for us. We are looking at any opportunity to be able to do that. CRAVA, or any of the community and voluntary sector providers, would recognise that capital investment is the most significant barrier to being able to scale their capacity. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Nessa Cosgrove  Exactly. The providers said that themselves. Should this committee be contacting the Department to ask why it is not funding this capital expenditure? Ultimately, we do not want the care of children to be given over to private providers. The question we have to raise as a committee is whether the State has a long-term plan for children in care. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  The first thing to say about the long-term plan is that the Department of children is finalising the whole-of-government alternative care policy, which we have contributed to. CRAVA and wider stakeholders have all contributed to that. We are really looking forward to seeing that policy and whole-of-government commitment on the provision of care to children across the State. Within that, we would hope to see prioritisation given across Government Departments to children in care, whether that involves access to housing or health services and maybe decisions around capital investment.  The community and voluntary sector is a small one in terms of the provision of residential facilities. It is about looking at what that sector's capacity is. It certainly has additional capacity in the aftercare space. We work with a huge number of community and voluntary services, almost 500, in respect of the provision of community services. It is a huge partnership for us. It is a more specific matter for the residential aspect. The cost of opening a children's residential home that is compliant with the standards expected by HIQA and under the regulations is a significant investment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Nessa Cosgrove  If we look at----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank Senator Cosgrove. Her time is up. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Nessa Cosgrove  I am sorry. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Claire Kerrane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Claire Kerrane  I thank everyone for being here this morning and for the opening statement and briefing document. I will come back to the residential services provided by the voluntary and community sector in particular. The last time Ms Duggan was here the point was made that the sector has not been able to expand. With respect, it is obvious that the voluntary and community sector has not been able to expand. The providers make no profit and have no surplus. Any unspent money is returned. They physically have no way to do that. In fairness to them, they were clear when they were here last week in laying that at the Department's door and not Tusla's in terms of funding. At my request, the committee has written to the Minister asking her to look at greater funding specifically for that sector in the next budget. That is very important. The providers' hands are tied.  In terms of beds funded and beds not opened, I visited one of the homes and it is very much like walking into a family home. There is capacity for four children per house. If a child is referred to one of these homes and that child has behavioural issues, the children already in the home naturally have to be considered because the environment is so compact and its nature is different from the environment in a wider centre. It is important to make this point in respect of what Ms Duggan has said. Interestingly enough, she referred to staffing. Staffing was not raised to any great extent. I have met CRAVA separately. These providers actually hold their staff fairly well. The staff I met had 100 years of experience among them, as did many of those who were here last week.  The community and voluntary providers also raised issues with the system as it is. If they receive a referral, they cannot accept that referral, and nobody wants to be in that position. Weeks and weeks are wasted with an over-and-back process. Tusla looks and the providers look, and a system is in place, and that is fine. The providers have a bed vacant, but because it takes so long when they refuse, they are left with a vacant bed they do not really want. Perhaps the system could be looked at. It is something the providers have flagged. There should be an element of trust in cases where a provider cannot accept a child. Tusla should acknowledge that it is not doing that willy-nilly, and if it cannot accept a child, it cannot accept that child. Rather than having a bed empty for weeks when there are more children on that list, perhaps we could be a bit more efficient. I ask Ms Duggan to look at that.  Ms Duggan said that Tusla engages all the time with the community and voluntary sector. When did she last meet CRAVA? How often are these meetings? I ask because my understanding was that there were quarterly meetings at the beginning. I stand to be corrected on that, however. As far as I understand, these meetings have not been happening. Where there are issues, it would make sense to meet, sit down, discuss the fact that 70 of 90 beds are open and determine why it is the case. It would make sense to have that engagement and conversation, but I am not sure that is happening. That is to the detriment of the providers and of Tusla. If these meetings are not happening, it would be helpful to get them back on track. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  Regarding the four-bed unit the Deputy described, it is the same for the Tusla centres, which I hope she will get to visit in two weeks. It is the same for the private sector. That is where children live now. They do not live in centres; they live in homes. The challenge we all have is that, where we do not have placements, we have to look at what can be done. There may be a behavioural challenge, but it is about how we look at that from the point of view of the risk. We have to work with that child and the support services to allow us to say we are still going to take that young person because we are not going to put them into a temporary emergency placement. We have to look at that in the round. We all face the same challenges. Across the community and voluntary sector, the private sector and Tusla, we do not want children in temporary emergency placements. We want those homes at full occupancy, with additional supports put in around the child, if needed. It is important to say that.  In terms of the efficiency of the process, I assure the Deputy that we spend every day trying to make sure every bed is occupied. We are talking about approximately 60 young people out of the 6,000 in care who do not have a permanent home, which is what we want for them. The rounded view of the issue always needs to be looked at.  In terms of engagements, CRAVA does not represent all our community and voluntary providers. In 2026, to date, there have been three meetings with CRAVA. We have met the group three times. I have not met the group since 2025. I met it two or three times in 2025, in Portarlington and Athlone, and I cannot remember where the third visit was. We also have a children's residential services, CRS, employers' forum that we set up with the community and voluntary sector, across the community, Tusla and the private sectors. There were seven meetings in 2025 with those providers. There have been three meetings to date. The forum looks at wider staffing issues, staffing qualifications, ratios, terms and conditions, training and development, and all of that. So far in 2026, there have been 22 meetings with the 11 providers that we work with in the community and voluntary sector through our service level agreements. While CRAVA is a representative group of a small number of providers, it is also important to say that individual providers have individual issues.  We have also set up a new forum, which was very important, involving the chairs of the boards of directors of the community and voluntary sector. It considers some of the issues that existed around things like capital infrastructure and governance. The forum is headed by Tusla's director of children's residential services, who is the most appropriate person, and also includes our head of commissioning, our residential services finance manager and our commissioning lead. We had meetings with the chairs of the boards of those residential providers in November 2025, March 2026 and May 2026 and there will be another one in September 2026.  The message of non-engagement between Tusla and the sector is one that is a little bit disingenuous. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Claire Kerrane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Claire Kerrane  I take all of that. That is why I wanted to put them to Ms Duggan. I appreciate that.  If a child with behavioural issues is in a private-run service and needs additional services, the private service can come to Tusla and look for a line of money to support that and put in whatever is needed. Can the voluntary sector do that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  Yes. Any child in foster care. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Claire Kerrane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Claire Kerrane  The voluntary and community sector can get additional money for a child beyond what their weekly---- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  A difference is that they can also get money, which the private sector cannot, for property damage or emergency repairs. That is built into the cost of the private provision. Within the community and voluntary sector at the moment, it is approximately \u20ac1.3 million a year for four beds, irrespective of occupancy levels. For the private sector, that is approximately \u20ac1.25 million. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Claire Kerrane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Claire Kerrane  There is a process that takes a number of weeks if a referral is refused. Could that be looked at? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  It can. A child can be refused but another child would be named very quickly. As the Deputy knows, we would never assure her that every system affecting every child was perfect on every occasion, but we have daily data now where we look at occupancy levels. I am very happy to share a report like this with the committee that sets out on a daily level all of our occupancy levels across all of the sectors. We have even advertised for another post to look at this. We want 99% or 100% of our beds filled every night because young people deserve to be in a registered residential home. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aisling Dempsey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aisling Dempsey  I thank the witnesses for being here. When we had CRAVA here last week, I spoke to it about aftercare. I believe it was Mr. Gordon Hill who said that even the word \"aftercare\" was not appropriate and described how inadequate some people felt aftercare was at the moment. From speaking to different people, I feel it is very inflexible. For example, a child in care who finishes education, goes to work and then wants to return to education is told that they will have to give up work for 11 months before they can access that. I wanted to ask the witnesses about this, starting with the name. Are there any plans or moves to change it and make it more descriptive and positive? To improve aftercare, is there any consultation ongoing or has any been done with foster carers and the children who are coming out of care? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  It is important to say that aftercare has been there traditionally because the legislation and regulations refer to aftercare post 18 years of age. We implement Government policy in terms of legislation and policy on children and young people being supported in aftercare up to the age of 23 if they are in education and training. One of the challenges, certainly when I came to the agency and just before that, was around the recognition that these young people, the same as any young person, may not have been ready to stay in education and training or to go to formal third level education. We have put a lot of supports into organisations like Way 2 Work, where young people over the age of 18 are not ready to go into what would be perceived as third level education but are engaged in training, for example, Safe Pass courses or training supporting them to work in construction. We make sure that all of those young people are considered to be in education and training and are supported. I provided some data earlier. We know that over 80% of young people in aftercare are now in education and training, which is very important. My colleague, Mr. Hone, might want to come in on aftercare. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Gerry Hone","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Gerry Hone  There are approximately 3,000 young people in receipt of a leaving and aftercare service from the agency. I agree with the Deputy about the name being far from ideal. I know that is being addressed within the Department and the alternative care strategy. That has had some discussion and there is a group looking at it. However, because the title is embedded in legislation, guidance and everything else, it would mean quite a lot of change to change it. It would have to be planned very carefully and might even need some language to be changed in legislation as well. That is the difficulty. I agree that it is far from ideal in terms of the title.  From the age of 16, a leaving and aftercare plan begins to be developed for every young person who is in care. Each network has a steering group that looks at the plan for young people leaving care. When there are specific needs around health, disability or housing, there is a steering group put in place to make sure that the young person's needs are met within the plan when they leave. A lot of young people stay with their foster carers. There is a high percentage, like our own children, who will stay at home. It is their home, it is their care placement. That is supported fully by the agency.  The Deputy mentioned an anomaly in terms of somebody not being told that they were not entitled to something. Our policy is not so strict that we cannot look at individual circumstances and, given the circumstance, identify the best response to that young adult in that situation to help them move on. I regularly deal with requests that fall outside the policy on one level to actually look at such situations and see if we can do anything about them. Generally, we reach solutions. I am happy to discuss all that with the Deputy separately, no problem. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  The Deputy asked about engagement with foster carers. I have just finished engagements all over the country with foster carers. We fund Empowering People in Care, EPIC, and I am meeting its youth council next week. The issues that are raised from that policy perspective are on extending the age of aftercare beyond 23. That has been widely acknowledged by young people who are seeking that as a policy change. There are also the challenges they face, similar to other young people, in being able to access mental health services, if there are issues around addiction, and also the housing challenges that are facing all young people within society currently. They are probably the top three things that would be flagged to me in terms of the challenges they face. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aisling Dempsey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aisling Dempsey  Sticking with the issue of aftercare services, I have only just got to scan yesterday's report and have not read through it completely. It indicates that 43% remained with their carers. What is the breakdown of the \"14% other\"? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  I do not have that data. I can get the exact breakdown for the Deputy. When we talk about \"other\" in that context, for example, we fund some of the community and voluntary sector where there are dedicated supports for young people in aftercare who may be experiencing some complexities in terms of mental health or addiction. Some of them may be in an addiction service. That is just a very high-level example. I do not want to be rustling papers but I can get the breakdown of the 14% for the Deputy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aisling Dempsey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aisling Dempsey  I thank Ms Duggan. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Gerry Hone","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Gerry Hone  There is a cohort that requires specialist services, especially under the disability heading. There will be some young people in specialist disability centres as well when they turn 18 because that is seen as their need. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  Cuirim f\u00e1ilte roimh Kate Duggan agus an fhoireann uilig. The special emergency arrangements have been completely factored out at this point. I believe everyone is glad to see that. There are 78 children and young people in temporary emergency placements. Is the difference that those placements have HIQA inspections? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  I explained it earlier but yes, there are 56 today in placements. When we changed SEAs, 20 of those providers or centres became registered centres so they are like any children's residential home. Of other 56 young people about half are in a centre Tusla has taken over the governance and oversight of, which means it is subject to HIQA inspection and monitoring, which is what we wanted to happen. As for the others, under the Act we can have temporary emergency centres but the young person can only be placed in that centre for a maximum time of 45 days until that centre achieves registration or else the young person moves to one of the centres that is under Tusla's governance. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  They are like a temporary SEA, they just cannot continue the way they did but----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  They are in line with the Act. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  -----they are on the way to being recognised. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  They are engaged with us from the beginning. They have to indicate to us they are seeking to become registered centres. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  That is good. As much as we want these factored out, they were born from an emergency need. It has been said in general terms that at times the threshold for kids being taken into care has probably risen in the last while. I get the work Tusla is going to do from the point of view that in the best-case scenario it maintains the family unit and all the rest of it, but needs fall into this. Has that created an issue in the last while in the sense the agency did not have the SEAs as a means of dealing with more complex cases? I would like to know the number of social workers we have and by how many we are still short, the same for social care workers and then also foster carers. I am working on the basis they are still about 500 short. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  Mr. Hone will be happy to talk about the concern the Deputy is expressing about children coming into care. I referenced earlier we are seeing an increase in the number of children coming into care but I recognise there is an increase in the population, so we have to contextualise that. Mr. Hone can come in quickly and then Ms Mannion can talk the Deputy through the staffing numbers.  On foster carers, we have set out the numbers there. We have seen an increase for the first time in a number of years. It is a small increase of 12 but we are putting a significant amount of work into fostering. We talk about the fact 87% of children in care are in foster care and we are a European leader within that. We would like that to be higher. We would like to get back up to 90% or 91%. For that we would need about another 480 or 500 foster families. That would take us far beyond any international number. We are cognisant that is very ambitious but that is what we work to. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  Tusla does not have full control over selling that, because obviously there are pieces that foster carers have requested that need governmental interventions. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  Society is also changing in terms of----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  I get that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  -----people wanting to foster and open their homes to fostering. Mr. Hone will address children coming into care and Ms Mannion the staff numbers. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Gerry Hone","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Gerry Hone  I thank the Deputy for his question. I think he asked whether the possibility that we might not have the special emergency arrangements could create a problem. The service has not gone away. This service is still available but we now have it in a regulated space. As such there is a process around it and for providers there are expectations around approval when they come in to a temporary emergency arrangement. It is under section 36(1)(d) of the Act. There is a set amount of time in which they have to apply for registration. There is a certain amount of time in which they have to achieve that registration. If they cannot, then it comes under Tusla governance and hence HIQA, because it has come in. All the time in the background we are trying to increase our capacity for emergency provision internally. We are in the process of buying properties, setting up emergency services and we are about to go out to tender on the provision for emergency beds in the system. On our reform programme, and Ms Mannion has already alluded to this, when a case comes in and we are looking at the needs of young person we are broadening our skills base through social care workers, social care leaders, family support workers and social workers. They are all working together and under joint protocols with the Garda and the HSE----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  But we do not have enough of them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Gerry Hone","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Gerry Hone  -----to make sure needs are met. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosarii Mannion","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosarii Mannion  I thank the Deputy for his question. We have more social workers and social care workers in the agency than we ever had but of course we need more. At the end of March we had 1,713 social workers and 1,307 social care workers. At today's date we are looking to recruit in the region of 450 social workers and social care workers combined. We have an outstanding resource----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  What is the breakdown of that? Is it about 300 and 150? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  About that, yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosarii Mannion","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosarii Mannion  We have an outstanding resource allocation model where we can get down to very granular detail on where we need the posts, caseload allocation, different indices on deprivation, etc. We are very conscious of course the supply of social workers is limited across the State. We have been out there. We have set up our own internal training college to be self-sufficient. We have our apprenticeship schemes in both social work and social care. At today's date we are moving towards having 193 apprentices between social work and social care combined. Over the next year or two we will have doubled the supply. That is not to say there will be enough as obviously social issues continue to grow and we are challenged, but within the agency we are doing everything possible to plug those gaps and we are funded to do so. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Margaret Murphy O'Mahony","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Margaret Murphy O'Mahony  The joys of being one of the last is that a lot of what I wanted to ask has been covered by my colleagues. I thank the witnesses for coming in, for their opening statement and for the great work they do. The agency often gets bad press but I acknowledge it does a lot of good work and it certainly is doing the best it can, which is all that can be asked.  On early intervention, Tusla reports a marked increase in children presenting with complex needs, including mental health difficulties, etc. What additional supports are required to ensure these children receive appropriate care and treatment before the situation escalates into special care or an emergency placement? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  I referenced already the whole-of-government approach to alternative care. There are 6,000 children in the care of the State and we believe they should be prioritised across Departments for services. The State is their corporate parent and if we were the parent of a child who needed additional supports, we would be looking to get those for them and that is something we would love to see in the alternative care policy. Outside of that, obviously the responsibility for the provision of mental health, disability and addiction services lies with the HSE and we recognise it is struggling with the demand for its services and there are waiting lists for those services. We advocate for children to be able to access them but we have also started to increase the therapeutic services we can provide to children and young people coming into care. We have been funded for six of what we would call generic therapeutic teams. We want children coming into care to get a therapeutic assessment as part of their care plan to be able to support their care plan. That is not to say it replaces any access they might need to specialist disability or mental health services, so we would love to see the expansion and growth of that service, as well as funding. We have also had a huge amount of investment in our specialist therapeutic services and we have really welcomed that in relation to our Barnahus service, which members may be familiar with in terms of children who have been sexually abused, and our NIAPP service that looks at young people who are showing indicators of sexualised or harmful behaviour. We are committed and want to continue to work on the development and investment in therapeutic services more broadly across the State and in supporting us to deliver better care planning for children in care. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Margaret Murphy O'Mahony","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Margaret Murphy O'Mahony  I thank Ms Duggan. I would also like the witnesses to expand on the agency's problems with recruitment and retention of staff. I am aware they have spoken about it already but I would like some more information. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosarii Mannion","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosarii Mannion  I thank the Senator. Recruitment and retention remain an ongoing challenge. We have a people strategy with eight strategic objectives and recruitment and retention are the key priorities there. In terms of recruitment, we know the supply is inadequate so we have done everything possible, as I said earlier, to become self-sufficient with our training college bursary sponsorship. In addition to that we create the conditions whereby staff want to stay in the agency. There are some things within our control and some without our control. Pay and conditions are external to our control, so we are very focused on creating an environment that is as good as it possibly can be. We provide on-site counselling, employee assistance programmes, health and well-being, coaching, mentoring and a really good induction programme, You Start.  If we think that people are getting into difficulty or they are challenged we try to get in early. We look at redeployment and rotations. We are just trying to be as proactive as we possibly can be. Every year we undertake an employee survey. Despite the sometimes negative publicity that we get, the experience of our employees, as reported by themselves, is very positive. Employees were given the option to describe in narrative terms their experience of the environment. The top three that came out from the employees themselves \u2013 from 30,000 descriptors \u2013 is that we are a learning and developing agency; we are friendly; we are supportive and; the environments are respectful, so we are doing everything we can there both in terms of recruitment and retention. We undertake exit interviews to hear from staff when they are leaving to see what we can learn and if there are things we could have done better. We find the top three themes coming through on exits are different career opportunities, the emotional impact of the work and opportunities to travel.  While our retention figures are improving all the time, they are slower than we would like. It is a very challenged market. There are plenty of opportunities out there but we are pleased that we are moving in a positive trajectory. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Margaret Murphy O'Mahony","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Margaret Murphy O'Mahony  Is Ms Mannion happy with the direction of travel? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosarii Mannion","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosarii Mannion  I am happy with the direction of travel but I would like if it was better. I am confident that we are doing everything we can. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Margaret Murphy O'Mahony","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Margaret Murphy O'Mahony  I thank Ms Mannion. Could I also ask her to expand please on the interim protections that are there for people waiting for special care placements? What happens if the placements are not available? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  Yes. Mr. Hone will probably talk to that. Currently, we have two young people waiting for a bed in special care. We certainly hope that both of those young people would have a bed before the end of July. Mr. Hone might talk to that, broadly speaking without giving specifics. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Gerry Hone","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Gerry Hone  That is no problem. I chair a weekly meeting to look at the needs of the young people who are waiting for a bed in special care and have been approved through the courts for a bed. It is very important because generally those young people are not engaging very well with the services and it is very hard to get co-operation from them. The purpose of my meeting, which is attended by the regional chief officers and the area managers, as they have front-line management for those particular children, is to ensure that everything is being done to manage the risks in the community for those young people and that every agency is trying to engage with them, not just Tusla. A lot of their problems can be mental health problems or drug addiction. We try to encourage those young people to engage with the services. Getting the services to reach out to them as well while they wait is key in managing that level of risk. We do not want the situation to continue where young people who are waiting for a bed in the community are there for long periods of time because of the high risks associated with their behaviour and the challenges around their lack of co-operation with services. For example, they can go missing for long periods and that causes issues because of further concerns about their safety. Those weekly meetings make sure those risks are always on the table and we are doing everything we possibly can to manage the risks. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Margaret Murphy O'Mahony","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Margaret Murphy O'Mahony  I thank the witnesses. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  It now falls to me to ask questions. Looking at the numbers, the referrals last year were up by 10% or 106,000. That can also be a positive; it is not necessarily the case that there is an increase in negative experiences around the country. It might be that more people are finding the pathway to Tusla. There are 5,879 children in foster care and 820 or so in other places. Allowing for a small population increase of about 2%, what are the top three or four reasons for the 10% increase in referrals? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  We have done some work around that while trying to get insights. While it is not evidence-based research, the patterns are showing us two things. The first is the rise in complex social situations that many families find themselves in. We all recognise and acknowledge the challenges around housing and in relation to poverty indicators and domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. That creates pressure on a family and its resilience and results in an increase in the need for services like ours. The other thing is we are seeing more awareness around safeguarding and people's responsibilities \u2013 everybody's responsibilities in terms of the care and protection of children. Whether that is a mandated reporter or a member of the public, people are becoming more aware. When we look at our reform programme and why we have done the work that we have done, we also wanted to make sure that when someone is referred to us that they get more timely access to the service they need, whether that is support or welfare and that we are as efficient as we can be, and that we also make sure that we are reducing the number of re-referrals, so that people do not have to come back a second time. We are only six months into our reform programme and already we are seeing early indicators \u2013 it is too early to say definitively that it is an impact of the reform \u2013 in terms of a reduction in the number of re-referrals and more timely access to services. That is going to take time to embed. Our job as an executive is to make sure that we are managing the operational risks in front of us all of the time and working tirelessly to deliver services to children and families, but it is also about building a service for the future. I think that is what our reform programme has been about, both in terms of how we deliver services, our people strategy, our financial stewardship and our digital transformation. We are setting ourselves up. Currently, the biggest challenges are placement capacity. Over the next three years of our corporate plan it is our ambition that all of the pieces in the reform programme will come together to make sure that the services are better. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  While Ms Duggan was taking I was thinking about a very high profile and tragic case, which I will not go into, whereby an issue was flagged in social welfare and the right reporting was followed and things like that. Even though it was a crazy, tragic circumstance it was positive that it was flagged.  We had the Children's Residential and Aftercare Voluntary Association, CRAVA, in last week. It was mentioned that there was evidence in UK reports to say that outcomes for the community, voluntary and charity, CVC, areas were better than private for-profit. Does Tusla have any data on outcomes from Tusla residential centres versus private for-profit centres? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  Mr. Hone might come in on this. The biggest piece of research that is under way at the moment has been commissioned by the Department on the care experiences programme, which is a long-term review of the outcomes for children in care over a period. That will be where we will see the first real evidence base in terms of the outcomes for children in care.  If we look at the measurements, up until now the agency has been established to look more at outputs in terms of the performance reports we produce: numbers leaving care; numbers in education; numbers in training; numbers going on to third level education or getting housing. We have introduced an outcomes framework within the agency where we will be able for the first time to start to look at outcome measurements for children in care and leaving care. Anecdotally, we are not seeing a difference. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  They were quite strong on the values and vision approach. The private for-profits are there for profit versus the community and voluntary sector which is there for the child.  The main example they gave was the light-switch moment that occurs when the child turns 18 years. They spoke about how the bed becomes available immediately. We got the sense that people are turfed out of the private sector. However, Ms Duggan has spoken about an aftercare plan being developed. I would like to be more assured in that regard. I made the point last week that, notwithstanding the management structure or whether the vision of the company is to make profit, the people working in the private sector are still going to be caring towards a child. Can Ms Duggan confirm that there is not a light-switch moment or cliff edge? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  It is important to say that every child in care has an allocated social worker, whether they are in a private centre, a community and voluntary centre or a Tusla centre. Every child in care is under the jurisdiction of the courts, no matter what centre they are in. Every child in care has a care plan that is developed with the child, the staff and the social worker within it. Every child in care has a transition plan from 16 to 18 years of age. When it comes to planning for accommodation post-18 years, that is what the plan refers to.  The CSO data, which is published, gives us very clear indications. We are seeing that almost nine out of ten children in care are engaged in education and training. That is across our care system. We are seeing that 55% of children in care are being looked after by a private provider. They are being looked after by professionally qualified social care workers and other professionals. It is at the child in care review and through the care plan that any difficulties or risks are flagged.  Children in care are not a homogenous group. There are children in care who are in education and in residential services, both private and statutory, who have challenges, maybe because of underlying trauma, mental health issues or disability, and they need access to specialist services within the HSE. The CSO data is telling a much better story about the experiences of children in care. We know what the vulnerabilities of children in care are, in terms of the risk of exploitation and homelessness. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I am going to cut Ms Duggan off because I have been strict with everybody else's time so I had better be strict with my own. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  All of those services are inspected and monitored against the HIQA standards. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Daniel Ennis","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Daniel-Ennis.D.2026-05-25","memberCode":"Daniel-Ennis.D.2026-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Daniel Ennis  To return to the budget, has capital expenditure increased, decreased or remained at the same level? On the 78 - now 56 - children in temporary emergency placements, is there information on the locations of those? Where are they? Is there a greater need in certain parts of the country? Is there engagement with young people on their experiences? Are they consulted and, if so, how is that information collected?  On the care plan, are there gaps, struggles or challenges around addiction services or mental health services for young people in terms of referrals? Is there any pushback? Are there clear pathways? If so, where are the clear pathways and challenges located? Are the witnesses seeing any trends? We are seeing kids falling into criminality a lot younger than previously. That is certainly true in my area. We are also seeing them fall into addiction at a younger age as well. Are the witnesses seeing any trends as regards location and, if so, what are those trends?  Are there any intercultural challenges around integration of people from different parts of the world who come here? I know that as regards placements, school placements, in communities and in the voluntary sector, people are seeing challenges. Could the witnesses explain some of the challenges being faced around that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Pat Smyth","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Pat Smyth  On the capital aspect, our current capital budget total is \u20ac35 million. That is split, with about \u20ac7 million for the ICT side and the rest for estates and buildings. That figure has been increased. The NDP review last year increased our total capital budget from \u20ac17 million in 2024 to \u20ac35 million now, and it is expected to be around \u20ac35 million for the next three or four years. A large part of that is dedicated to putting in place new residential houses. We have a plan to try to get around 100 new beds in place. That involves buying and refurbishing houses to bring them up to the standard we need for residential care and creating a home environment. That is the position as regards those matters.  I refer back to the question about capital going across to community and voluntary organisations. Obviously, we are in a capital programme ourselves. As Ms Duggan mentioned, one of the options is to have our own properties and get the community and voluntary organisations in to manage one of those properties for us. One of the challenges we have on the Tusla side is that, unlike disability and other areas, the size of the organisations we are dealing with is very small. Most of those organisations struggle in terms of having the quantum of resource to put the capital piece in place. A number of smaller organisations merged this year. That is something we may have to consider as we go forward, to allow those organisations to get together. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  I am using figures from the time when there were 78 children in emergency arrangements. In terms of the location, about one third of those were in Dublin and mid-Leinster and another third were in Dublin north-east. As such, two thirds were within the greater Dublin region. The next highest area is the south east. After that, to a much lower level, is the west, north east and mid-west. That is a broad breakdown.  In terms of access to services and trends, we would like if the 6,000 children in the care of the State were prioritised for access to services. Today, the policy is that they wait for services, the same as any other child in the care of the State, if they need access to specialist, disability, mental health or addiction services. They are not prioritised for access to those services.  In terms of trends, what we would call out are the broader societal trends. Obviously, we are seeing global movement and its impact. When I talk about cultural issues, we are seeing really good evidence of integration. We are working with families from different cultural backgrounds in terms of how they parent and looking at that in an Irish context.  Certainly, we are worried about levels of exploitation of children, and that is not just sexual exploitation. When we look at our sexual exploitation data, we are seeing higher levels of reporting of concerns around exploitation of children living in the community, at home, than we are of children in care. We are seeing a rise in addiction and drugs among parents, with the impact that has on children, but also among the children themselves. We are seeing criminal gangs and their influence on children and young people.  I saw some data just yesterday. If we look at one of our specialist services dealing with sexual abuse, Barnahus, about 50% of referrals to it involve peer-on-peer abuse. We are starting to see an increasing trend of peer-on-peer sexual abuse or allegations of sexual abuse. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Charles Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Charles-Ward.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Charles-Ward.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Charles Ward  What is the difference between the special emergency arrangements that were contracted by Tusla in the past and those that are now registered with Tusla? How many of these companies are operating placement settings? Are these the same companies that operated in the past but now with Tusla registration? What happens if an SEA provider fails the registration process? Are the children immediately removed or is there a time period? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  Some of the providers are the same. It is important to recognise that in some of the provision of SEAs, private providers enter the market and we have worked with them and are satisfied they meet all of the criteria for registration.  Some of the providers are providing staffing on our behalf and are governed by Tusla. Where a service fails registration, a child is removed after 45 days if that centre has not achieved registration. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  My question is about the 1,200 unaccompanied minors in care. Am I right to say the age verification process is undertaken by the Department of integration and IPAS services? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  That has always been the responsibility of the Department of justice. Now, in preparation for the EU migration pact, which went live in June, the Department of justice and the international protection office introduced a new age assessment process. While it is too early to talk about a trend, we have seen since January a reduction in the number of referrals to Tusla. It is important to say that the principle of the presumption of minority still remains. That is a principle we hold dear in terms of mitigating the risk of children being placed with adults. Internationally, the risk of every service is the risk of an adult being placed with a child. When I say a child, that child could be 16 or 17. There is also the risk of a child being placed in an adult service. We should probably use the term \"young person\" instead of child. That age between 17 and 19, or 17 and 20, in the absence of documentation is difficult to verify. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  On Tusla's knowledge of the cases, what is the youngest age at which we might be providing accommodation for an unaccompanied minor. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  I do not have the age range here but we can certainly get it. When we talk about unaccompanied minors, there are children for whom we would have had concerns about trafficking or there are children who have come to the airport and there was a concern about the adult. It could be children as young as seven or eight. Certainly, for any unaccompanied minor under the age of 16 they are in the care of the State, and the younger young people are placed in foster care. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  That is the point I was getting to earlier, but I was not clear enough in my commentary, on concerns about the children. There are additional concerns other than their being unaccompanied in some cases. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  Yes, there would be concerns about trafficking. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  I turn to special care. Tusla has acknowledged and regrets the current situation where it is unable to fulfil the statutory obligation to provide timely access to special care for our young people. How many children are we talking about there? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  Today there are two, and we hope those young people will have a place in special care before the end of this month. We have two young people transitioning out. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  I thank the witnesses for their previous answers. I will go back to the idea of the threshold before a child is taken. I have been told that threshold has probably increased in recent years. I put that down to capacity needs. I also accept that people try to build a care plan around somebody. An issue I have been over and back on previously is the idea of caseload management. I will give part of the answer I got to a parliamentary question:  Tusla\u2019s policy on caseload management is that there are defined manageable caseloads for all social workers, with caseloads reviewed on an ongoing basis to ensure best outcomes for children and families.  Tusla\u2019s Social work Caseload Management system is a structured national framework designed to ensure that social work services are delivered, safely, equitably and transparently. ... Tusla has advised that the Social Work Caseload Management System has been paused in some areas. This is due to the number of Social Work vacancies being experienced by Tusla. Intensive recruitment efforts are ongoing by Tusla, and the Department is working closely with Tusla on this.  I heard this happened in County Louth, in Dundalk. It draws attention to the pressure individual social workers and social care workers could be under. Will the witnesses answer that and the question on thresholds? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Gerry Hone","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Gerry Hone  On thresholds, one thing that affects them but which is not always seen is the availability of placements. Capacity for placements can affect thresholds. You might have some children at home who require a placement but they are being supported to stay at home. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  This might have happened when Tusla did not have SCUs. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Gerry Hone","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Gerry Hone  Yes, so there is an impact there on thresholds. However, I do not think the thresholds for care have gone up because the legislation is clear on when the threshold is met, as well as our duties and responsibilities to respond when it is met. The function of front-line management is to make sure our responsibilities----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  That is okay.  We will move on to caseload management from the point of view both of those to whom Tusla is providing supports and services such the vulnerable children and of the workforce, the idea being that they are not overburdened with a lot of complex cases. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Gerry Hone","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Gerry Hone  No, and when you are short staffed that is always a danger. The caseload management policy is a bit out of date, particularly since we had the reform programme and are changing the approach to how we do our practice, in terms of integrated working. That caseload management process is now under review. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  What is the timeline on that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Gerry Hone","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Gerry Hone  We hope to have that done within the next six months, in terms of looking at it and getting it done. Even in its current format it never really covered the workload for workers at the front door. That was a gap in the system, so we have to go back to look at that caseload management system in the round and come up with something more fit for purpose based on what we have done under reform. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  I have some data here. When we looked in the past couple of weeks at caseloads, there is the idea of moving from 17 areas to 30 networks. The Deputy's county of Louth has separated from Meath, so it has a dedicated team. We can certainly get him the data for Louth. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  I was going to ask about that because I am led to believe the referral numbers are big, as are the numbers in care. That can be that action is taken as much as there is a need. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  We can give a simple example. If we look at the cases open in an area in December 2025 before we implemented the new structure, the average number of open cases was 1,052. Today, that is 632. Through the reform we are seeing a rebalancing. On children in care, when we had 17 areas, the average number of children in care per area was 337. That has now moved to 194. One of the objectives of our reform was reducing the numbers of children in care, the number of referrals coming to the door and the number of caseloads open to social work for the 17 areas. We have achieved that through new structures, new alignment of teams and new constructs. We are starting to see it, but I can certainly get those Louth figures for the Deputy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  I would appreciate it. Can I ask one tiny question? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  That is fine. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  Well, it is quite a big one. It is about the cases we have had to deal with. I am not asking about specifics. This is Kyran Durnin. It is Daniel Aruebose. It is Vadym Davydennko. It is the assault on the young girl in Citywest. Obviously, there is a review methodology Tusla operated and there were recommendations. Some of them required legislation. Where exactly are we with all of that now? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  The Minister published the recommendations within the Kyran Durnin review. We have implemented all of the recommendations that are within Tusla's control. Where there are recommendations outside of our control we are working with those stakeholders. The other reviews are ongoing in the context of the national review panel, but we do not wait for those reviews to change our practice. Something else I think will be back before the committee is the well-being check when it is published. That is where the Minister asked us to look at all of the cases that were closed to Tusla during Covid-19, to ensure the well-being of those children and young people. We expect that will be completed in the autumn. I think that will have great learning for the State. The Chair mentioned the DSP individual noticing something about how we use PPS numbers to collect information on children who are emigrating, in terms of educational systems and structures and on how we operate in Tusla. That will be really good, and I look forward to coming back before the committee to present the learning across State services as a result of that check. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  The committee has reached out as well and it is very happy to engage with us once the report is published. I call Deputy Kerrane. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Claire Kerrane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Claire Kerrane  I want to come back on a couple of bits. First, on the private emergency placements and the 78 children and young people who are in temporary emergency placements, are all of those special emergency arrangements, SEAs, as they were called, residential home settings now? There are no hotels, apartments, flats or anything else. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  Well, there may be because a residential home may be for one person in a two-bedroom apartment where the staff are there with one young person----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Claire Kerrane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Claire Kerrane  Okay, but there is no hotel or bed and breakfast accommodation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  There is no hotel accommodation. Under our national out-of-hours service, there may be. I want to check my records here to give the Deputy the data as of this week. Where we have our national out-of-hours service, an example may be a Sunday night. I have to be very honest that where there is a breakdown in a placement and there may be a period of 12 or 24 hours when a placement is not available, a hotel may have to be sought. For one young person on that week in July for which I have this figure, there had to be hotel arrangement sought----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Claire Kerrane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Claire Kerrane  Short term. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  -----but that was just one young person for 12 to 24 hours. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Claire Kerrane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Claire Kerrane  Okay, that is fine. The SEAs were previously used. Most of us and the general public, in a lot of cases, would have seen this for the first time in the \"RT\u00c9 Investigates\" programme. The use of those kinds of settings - rooms in hotels and bed and breakfast accommodation - on a long-term basis has not been not a practice since June. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  That was never a practice, to be fair. If we looked back and got the data for a whole year for the Deputy on the number placed in hotels, we would see that the numbers really were very low. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Claire Kerrane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Claire Kerrane  On that programme, another concern for the general public would have been the young person who was sleeping in the Tusla car park. Was Tusla aware that there was a young person in the car park? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  No, and we have no evidence----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I think we will not go into that because that is a specific person and it is very----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Claire Kerrane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Claire Kerrane  No, that is fine. Obviously, it is public knowledge and I am not referencing the person but----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  We have no evidence that that happened and no awareness----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Claire Kerrane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Claire Kerrane  That is fine. The other thing I want to check is if Tusla has met with Social Care Ireland and the Irish Association of Social Workers. A number of concerns have been raised around the reforms. Change is change and there will be hiccups and different parts to all of that. That is normal, but has the Tusla met with both association representative organisations? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  Have I personally? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Claire Kerrane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Claire Kerrane  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  Ms Mannion and I most recently met with Social Care Ireland on issues not really related to the reform, just on wider issues in relation to Social Care Ireland. I personally have not met representatives from IASW because on the issues they were raising in terms of social work, the scope of roles and caseload allocation we felt our chief social worker would be more appropriate to meet with them. We are obviously open all of the time to meet with any representative groups, but in terms of the particular issues for which they were looking for a CEO, I would not have that information. Ms Mannion has met and also leads the discussions with CORU in relation to any of the queries that were subsequently raised. As CEO, sometimes it just is not appropriate in terms of the nature of the queries that organisations have. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Claire Kerrane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Claire Kerrane  Sometimes an in-between service between special care and residential care is raised with us. Does Ms Duggan feel, as head of the organisation, that this is a missing piece, particularly for children? Obviously, there are difficulties with special care but I ask particularly in cases where there may be signposts to special care but the services and supports are not actually there for them within special care. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  Absolutely. I am delighted to say we are going to open three units, two before the end of this year and one in January 2027. We are calling them step-up or step-down units. I hope when the committee members come to special care and they see young people who have not committed a crime walking down around locked doors, their liberty taken away and high-wired fencing, they will understand it needs to be a measure of last resort. We are looking at having more step-up units where the environment is physically stronger. That has often been the concern we have had when we talk about the use of restraint in terms of ratios that might be needed or the strength of the environment in terms of ligature points, the windows, the doors and the layout of the environment. There are a number of environmental modifications that would have been needed and that is why we are building three purpose-built units. At the end of this year two will be opened and one will be opened next year. They have taken almost two years from the point of getting the capital approval, getting them built and up to the level of compliance in terms of HIQA, to, in this case, getting the much more robust physical environments. Three units, as I said, will be opened by January. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Claire Kerrane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Claire Kerrane  I understand why security personnel are sometimes used in special care units. Do they all receive training? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Margaret Murphy O'Mahony","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Margaret Murphy O'Mahony  I thank the witnesses again for coming in. Is there anything else they want to add that the time did not allow them to say? I would be particularly interested in their future plans. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  We are just about to write our next corporate plan, which is for the next three years. At the moment, we are going through a phase of analysis and reflection on the scale of the demand that is coming at us as an agency, the wider societal issues that are out there, and the supports that are needed for children and families generally. We want children to grow up with their families where possible. We want those families to be resilient. Where those parents have challenges around domestic violence, addiction or mental health, we want them to get the supports they need. Coming to Tusla should happen at a point after everything else has perhaps been tried and families have been supported. What we need or what we would like is the prioritisation of children in care for access to services and a whole-of-government approach to providing for the needs of children in care and families, whether that is in relation to housing, addiction or mental health services. We would like support around public confidence and trust in Tusla as an agency. We absolutely own our challenges. We recognise there are times when we are not able to provide the services that we would like to or want to provide. While we are working really hard to do that, part of it has to be about where there is a good news story, or a positive outcome where progress is being made, voices being used across society and across the political system to recognise that, while absolutely holding us to account where there is not. That is very important for us. My colleague may want to add to that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosarii Mannion","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosarii Mannion  The only other thing I would add is that we have a social worker all-employers forum which is led by Tusla. We have made good progress there in advancing new models such as apprenticeship, etc., but a more integrated approach is probably needed, with the educational sector and other agencies really looking at getting ahead of workforce planning issues to ensure Tusla has a workforce that is reflective of the society we serve. There is a little bit of integration needed on long-term integrated workforce planning across the State among the various agencies. Tusla has really pushed the boundaries. We have done what we can and there is scope for more learning and advancement there. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Gerry Hone","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Gerry Hone  Somebody asked earlier about trends and what we might be seeing for young people at the acute end. One the things that is a constant concern of mine is how we structure our addiction services in the State. You really have to be at a stage where you are co-operating with the service to actually avail of it, and a lot of the time our young people are not engaging. There is something about working across government around the structure of how we deliver addiction services, particularly to young people, and how they can access them. It is all about children going to centres to receive services if they are willing or their family is willing to co-operate with them. Whereas we actually need more outreach type of work with those young people and that type of specialism to be developed. That would be really important as a need to work better going forward. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Pat Smyth","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Pat Smyth  Our challenge continues to be around ensuring that we have and we get the resources we require.  We have tried to put in place good services over the last number of years. Despite all the challenges there have been around the residential side, it is worth knowing that the average cost of looking after a child in residential is about \u20ac48 per hour, which covers nights, days and weekends. For all those kids in residential, it is not a very big cost if we compare it with everything else that we have to do. We got a plumber last week, which cost about \u20ac90 for an hour. It is a lot of money but when we boil it down to what we are trying to do here - the depth of service and what we are trying to replace - it is a big piece.  I wish to note the following. Earlier Ms Duggan referenced the CSO data and there is a very high return. The CSO has examined the data across from 2017 or 2018, in terms of the outcomes for kids who have been through Tusla services. It found that between 85% and 90% of those kids are in good prospects, education and jobs. Yes, the 10% challenge that we have is where we have to look and they consume a lot of the resources. The investment of the State has been very productive in terms of what we have tried to do over the last number of years. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aisling Dempsey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aisling Dempsey  I wish to return to our earlier conversation on the budget. As was mentioned, representatives of CRAVA were here last week. CRAVA is very much on the side of Tusla. They said that Tusla could not give them any more and it was down to the Department. I see that Tusla's budget is very structured, deals with the Department and it goes to the Department of public expenditure. In terms of what Tusla will seek for its next budget, will there be a large increase sought for this area? I know that if Tusla does not spend in one area that it is ring-fenced and would either have to be returned or applied for. Does that happen in other areas? Does the funding go into this form of care or not? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  Before Mr. Smyth discusses the details, I want to say that Tusla is very grateful to the Minister, Deputy Foley, and her Department for securing a 14% increase for 2026, which we did get. A significant volume of that was for normal things like pension, pay and WRC payments. However, the rest was very much around funding for ten family resource centres, which has been very welcomed by communities across the country, and then in relation to the growth in the number of separated children, those seeking the international protection service and our residential services, and money to support us in terms of opening beds in special care, if we can recruit the staff that we need. Certainly, we are starting from a good base.  Members will have received the annual report, which was published yesterday. The annual report and the data that we have given the committee today is a story of increased demand. When there is increased demand and need to that level, our first job as a public service is to demonstrate that we are doing the best we can with the money that we have. For example, there is the implementation of our reform programme and some of the differences that I have called out in terms of the work that we are doing to make sure that we are doing that. There is our digital transformation. I know that there are lots of references in the media to digital transformation programmes at the moment. We have delivered. Tusla is the only health and social care service now that has a single child record. We have delivered that in house, on time, on budget and without the use of external services. Therefore, we have demonstrated very well our ability to use the resources that we are given and get a good return on investment.  We are concerned at the potential of a levy being applied to Tusla next year as a result of the levy that has been applied, as we understand it, across a number of State Departments or agencies because of the overrun in education, as reported in the media. We are very concerned if we had to constrict our services as a result of a levy. Obviously now we are going through the process of setting out the business cases to the Department in relation to that demand. That tells its own story in the sense of, if we were able to respond fully to that demand, what that might look like in terms of additional investment. Obviously, our job is to provide this committee with the assurance that, with the available resources, we are providing services to those most in need and those at greatest risk. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I aim to ask four questions in five minutes. First, on the issue of 45 days for a private emergency placement. The child must either be transferred into foster care or a Tusla placement after 45 days or the placement must become registered. What happens if they do not get registered? Let us say the child is transferred somewhere else. Can another child be referred to them for another 45 days or does the placement cease altogether for any child? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  I will let Mr. Hone answer that. It depends on the provider and the progress they are making. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Gerry Hone","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Gerry Hone  When the child is initially placed, there are 45 days to begin the registration process. During that time the social worker and the providers will work together to make sure that the care is safe during that period. When the registration process is started, there is a further 60 days to complete the registration process, which is quite in-depth in that there are loads of standards to be met, lots of paperwork to be filled out, and making sure that all policies and procedures are in place. That is the reason for the extra 60 days. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  And that we are confident at that point that they are going to achieve registration. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Gerry Hone","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Gerry Hone  Absolutely, and that is monitored. During that time the care is monitored. If we get to a point where the service cannot register or fails to meet the standards for registration, there are several possibilities. The service can be closed and the child moved elsewhere or the service comes under section 59( a ) of the Act, which brings it in under Tusla governance completely. We take responsibility for the governance of the placement and that then brings us in under HIQA, and HIQA inspects the service in respect of the national child care standards and residential care standards. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  One of the other elements of progress that we have made is that young people are spending shorter periods in emergency placement because that is the solution. We want young people to be able to be placed in a centre that will be a stable placement for them. We have 45 days because it is stipulated in legislation. If we feel that they are making good progress, obviously we are happy to work with them for those 60 days because it is an administrative process. For us, it is around not having a young person in a placement beyond that 45 or 60 days, and that is what we are now measuring as an indicator. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  In the interest of getting answers to my other questions, because we have all returned to these questions in similar ways, by the time we meet in the summer it would help us all if we received one page from Tusla that described the differences between the three new terms. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  We will supply that, yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  On aftercare, the figures are good because 43% remained with their carers, 23% were in independent living arrangements, eight returned home and there are eight in residential care. What are supported lodgings and designated care leaver accommodation, and what is the 14% of others? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  Deputy Dempsey asked about the 14% of others. We will get to that breakdown. Some of that would be homeless, some of it would be addictions, and some of it would be disabilities. We will supply the Cathaoirleach with that breakdown.  A supported lodging is digs. It is a family, in the case of older young people who are in aftercare, who are willing to almost rent out a room to Tusla so that young person has their own room in a home and would live there. Tusla would have an engagement but the young person would not be in foster care. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  What is designated care leaver accommodation? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  That would be an example I gave where we have worked with partners, like Peter McVerry and Focus Ireland, where we have funded or, in some cases, we have worked with the county council in a region, to have a house dedicated and it would be like a house share. It is dedicated accommodation that we fund for care leavers, and jointly fund with the councils in some cases. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  The private sector can scale quickly, which is why we have ended up with 55%, but it is still Tusla's money that funds the private sector to scale. Why can the private sector scale quickly but Tusla cannot?  That might be a difficult question. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Pat Smyth","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Pat Smyth  Some of the accommodation it is in, it may not own. It may rent. It can do that on a consistent basis and probably does that more effectively and faster than Tusla can. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Why is that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Pat Smyth","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Pat Smyth  The restrictions around acquisition of property for us are a bit of an issue in terms of governance. We are in a position where if we need a house tomorrow or the next day, we need board meetings, approvals and processes to take that on because that is just part of the rules of the organisation when it comes to acquiring property for the State. That is just one aspect. The alternative is that a lot of properties utilised in the State over the past number of years may be available for other services such as residential, for example, IP has been reducing, so there is a lot of availability of property coming through there at the moment. Obviously, the assurance and quality of those properties need to be----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  We are also working to a capital plan. We have a defined capital budget we have to stick to. While we can pay through a contract and through a tender for the provision of a service, we have to work to a specific capital plan. We get that five years out. We now know what our capital plan is for the next five years and we have to work within that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  The witnesses have given various answers about the demands on resources and concerns about resources in the future. On the 1,200 unaccompanied minors Tusla provides accommodation and care for, does it get any support from the Department of justice in terms of resources? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  No. We do not get any funding from the Department of justice. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  It fully comes out of Tusla's own budget. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  Yes, and the Department of children. About 490 separated children are in care tonight. It is 1,200 over the year. That has reduced because the number has reduced. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  Would Ms Duggan say the migration pact has had an impact on that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  It is too early to say there is a trend or correlation but certainly since the change in the age assessment, and there is now documentation verification, Eurodac checks and engagement with the IPO and the young person, we are seeing a reduction over the same period in the number referred to Tusla. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  On the increasing number of children under threat of participation in criminal activity, what role does Tusla have with the youth diversion programme? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  Mr. Hone might talk about that. Where we have a concern that there is criminal activity, we report to the Garda first and foremost. On child sexual exploitation, we have had a process in place with the Garda since 2021. We have a single point of referral to a single point in the Garda whether the children live in the community or in care where we see indications perhaps a young person is being given designer clothes or has a mobile phone or has money. They are early indicators and we can report that to the Garda. Youth diversion is engagement and projects like Redtown and Greentown. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Gerry Hone","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Gerry Hone  That can be part of local planning so that if a young person is involved in criminality and that is referred to us, we go to the Garda and it is whether it feels that child or young person would benefit from the youth diversion programme. I am aware of one that is funded by the Garda and Barnardos in Donegal, for example. Children are referred based on their suitability for the programme. It is generally the Garda that decides whether they are suitable or not for that programme. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Claire Kerrane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Claire Kerrane  I want to go back to property upkeep and maintenance for the voluntary and community sector. As part of the service level agreement Tusla has with providers, are upkeep and maintenance costs covered? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  No. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Claire Kerrane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Claire Kerrane  Is it just damage? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  Just damage. It is extenuating damage. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Claire Kerrane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Claire Kerrane  Is Tusla confident that every young person is getting their aftercare plan put in place on time, in other words, as close to their 17th birthday as possible? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  We have seen progress in that regard. It had not been the case. We have invested in our aftercare services and appointed a national lead for aftercare who is now looking at that consistency and standards across the country. Both have made progress. I can get the numbers for the Deputy for those who have their aftercare plan in place. I will send it to her after this meeting. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  My last question is about kinship care. The committee had correspondence recently on expanded supports for kinship care, especially financial supports. One example was a 22-year-old in continued education whose payment will cease. Are there any comments on that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  Mr. Hone might give more detail on the work with the Department on developing a policy. As we said, the Department sets the policy and the legislation and we implement it. It is about working with the Department on a policy and consistency. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Gerry Hone","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Gerry Hone  Work with the Department is ongoing in respect of kinship care because there is an issue about funding and what type of payments can be paid to carers in those situations. That is being looked at in the alternative care strategy in the Department. It is hoped that will get bottomed out. There is a specific group looking at it. I have staff on that group to try to bring that forward under the strategy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  It is probably too early to give recommendations but would it be in line with trying to give them the same benefits as children in foster care? It is obviously more beneficial if a child is kinship care but they are still taking on the duty for the State. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  There is entitlement to the guardianship allowance. That probably needs to be looked at in terms of consistency and the application. I met a family recently who had taken on two grandchildren. They did not need the support of Tusla in terms of needing to foster but needed some financial supports. When they applied for the guardianship payment, they were refused on the first occasion. We supported them in their second application.  There is probably something in that regard because often families do not want intervention from Tusla. They are happy to be looking after their family members and they want to do it as a private arrangement but recognising that these grandparents, for example, needed some financial assistance. Whether that is through a guardianship payment through the Department of Social Protection or it comes through Tusla, many families would want it to be separate from the care system. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Before I give my closing remarks, does anybody else want to give any closing remarks? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  I thank the committee for giving us the opportunity to come here today. I thank the committee members who have recognised the good work. We have such hard-working and dedicated staff, not just in Tusla but across the community and voluntary sector, providing services on our behalf in increasingly challenging circumstances as the years go on. I thank the committee for its support.  I hope we give the committee the assurance that what we are doing on behalf of the State is the best we can with the resources available and we will be happy to own where there are challenges and be called to account on them. We look forward to the committee's support through the implementation of the alternative care policy when it is published and in terms of funding and support not just for Tusla but for children and families in communities, which needs to be a key priority for our Government. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank the witnesses for coming in and answering the questions. I thank the committee for taking this position really seriously. We welcome when Tusla comes in and we have the difficult conversations because we are all here for the right reasons - to improve the lives and experiences of children. The staff Tusla has working on the ground do amazing work. That always has to be commended as well as addressing the challenges.  I thank the secretariat for all their hard work. Since Christmas, they have been working incredibly hard, as have all members. I wish them a happy summer break. I know they will not be having a break despite what the public might think. I know they will all be working very hard in their constituencies, whether having clinics or going to events. I know the phone will not stop ringing but I hope they get a bit of a break as well.  I look forward to seeing them when we visit the Tusla centres. I hopefully will be celebrating Mayo winning the all-Ireland. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kate Duggan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kate Duggan  We will start with Limerick on Sunday and then go on to Mayo. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  We live in hope. Good luck to Galway on Sunday. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The joint committee adjourned at 11.50 a.m. sine die ."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Child Protection Matters, Special Care and Special Emergency Care Arrangements: Tusla"}]}}]},"contextDate":"2026-07-16"},{"debateRecord":{"house":{"showAs":"Joint Committee on Key Issues affecting the Traveller Community","committeeCode":"joint_committee_on_key_issues_affecting_the_traveller_community","houseCode":"dail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/committee\/dail\/34\/joint_committee_on_key_issues_affecting_the_traveller_community","chamberType":"committee","houseNo":"34"},"chamber":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/def\/committee","showAs":"Joint Committee on Key Issues affecting the Traveller Community"},"lastUpdated":"2026-07-25T02:14:51+00:00","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/joint_committee_on_key_issues_affecting_the_traveller_community\/2026-07-16\/debate\/main","formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/joint_committee_on_key_issues_affecting_the_traveller_community\/2026-07-16\/debate\/mul@\/main.xml"},"pdf":null},"date":"2026-07-16","counts":{"contributorCount":6,"divisionCount":0,"debateSectionCount":1,"questionCount":0,"billCount":0},"debateType":"debate","debateSections":[{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/joint_committee_on_key_issues_affecting_the_traveller_community\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_2","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Traveller Accommodation: Discussion (Resumed)","counts":{"speechCount":135,"speakerCount":7},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Elizabeth Berry","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-O'Reilly.S.1989-10-01","memberCode":"Joe-O'Reilly.S.1989-10-01","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maurice Quinlivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Anne Rabbitte","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Anne-Rabbitte.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Anne-Rabbitte.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Apologies have been received from Senator Noonan.  This meeting is to discuss the issue of Traveller accommodation with representatives from Wexford Local Development, Wexford Local Traveller Accommodation Consultative Committee, and Ferns Diocesan Youth Service. From Wexford Local Development we are joined by Ms Marie Louise Byrne, community development co-ordinator. From Wexford Local Traveller Accommodation Consultative Committee our witnesses are Ms Elizabeth Berry from the Gorey district; Ms Kathleen Connors, Rosslare district; Ms Mary Connors, New Ross district; and Ms. Mary Mongan, Enniscorthy district. From Ferns Diocesan and Youth Service we are joined by Mr. Robbie Sludds, Traveller inclusion project worker. They are all very welcome. We do not have anyone attending remotely.  As the witnesses are within the precincts of Leinster House, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.  Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity outside of the Houses or an official of the Houses either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.  The witnesses are very welcome. I have known all of them quite well over many years. I invite them to make their opening statements and we will then proceed to a question and answers session. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Elizabeth Berry","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Elizabeth Berry  We thank the Chair and members for the opportunity to speak to the committee today. We are here today as the Traveller representatives on the Wexford local Traveller accommodation consultative committee, LTACC, and with our colleagues from Wexford Local Development and the FDYS Traveller inclusion project. I will introduce the LTACC representatives: my name is Elizabeth Berry and I am representing the Gorey district. I am also a Traveller community health worker for north Wexford and I work with Wexford Local Development. I am one of ten community health workers and I have worked with WLD for 16 years. I am joined by Mary Mongan, representing the Enniscorthy district who will talk about issues related to Traveller accommodation, homelessness and the real barriers Traveller families experience, such as the choice-based letting system. Kathleen Connors from Taghmon is representing the Rosslare district. Kathleen will talk about the future for young Travellers and the information available on choices available. Mary Connors, representing the New Ross district is also a nominated representative from the national Traveller organisations. Mary has been a Traveller activist and community health worker for decades and is a long-standing member of the LTACC. She will talk about the importance of reform of how the LTACCs work, if we are to see improvements.  We are also joined by Marie Louise Byrne from Wexford Local Development, who sits on the LTACC in an advisory role to the Traveller representatives in County Wexford. Robbie Sludds is from the Traveller inclusion project in FDYS. Mr. Sludds is based in a community house in Drumgoold, Enniscorthy, which is a Traveller-specific housing scheme with 14 houses. He will talk about accountability in the implementation of plans and policies and consultations Travellers participate in.  I will now pass over to Marie Louise Byrne who will provide some background information. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Marie Louise Byrne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Marie Louise Byrne  Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an gCathaoirleach and members for the invitation to highlight some of the issues experienced on the ground at local level. I would like to take this opportunity to provide some background information and to draw attention to the current functioning of the LTACC and the process of developing the Traveller accommodation programme, TAP, and how that happens on the ground.  In terms of numbers, the census recorded 1,441 Travellers living in County Wexford which is the eighth highest population in Ireland and the highest in the south east. However, based on Wexford County Council\u2019s annual count, 784 Traveller families were identified at the end of 2024. This would indicate a much higher population. Services on the ground such as ourselves in FDYS estimate the figure to be closer to 3,000, which is double the number recorded in the census, which is important to note. There are two halting sites in County Wexford, Mountain View in Bunclody and Marshmeadows in New Ross. They are not transient sites and many families have lived on the sites for decades. There are approximately 46 families living in group housing schemes across the county.  WLD works in partnership with Travellers. In County Wexford there is not yet a Traveller-led organisation, so community development initiatives are shared across several stakeholders. We have a very active Traveller interagency group, which deals with education, employment, health and other issues apart from accommodation because that is left to the LTACC. WLD programmes such as the social inclusion and community activation programme, SICAP, and the empowering communities programme, which operates in Bunclody, prioritise community work with Travellers. We also host two Traveller primary healthcare projects. Ms Berry works on the north Wexford one.  In relation to the LTACC, my own role for over ten years has been to support Traveller representatives to participate in a meaningful, and not tokenistic, way. This is part of broader community development work with Travellers across the county that focuses on empowerment, leadership, equality, social justice and anti-racist practice and that uses the public sector human rights and equality duty as a tool.  The LTACC is a valuable statutory structure that allows members of the community to engage with elected representatives and officials. Despite the numerous challenges to the functioning of the LTACC, the desire is not to disband the LTACCs but to reform them \u2013 especially with regard to the mandate and purpose of LTACCs, as well as reform of how the Traveller accommodation programme is developed.  In relation to the consultation process for the TAP, my colleagues on the community development team in WLD facilitated listening groups during the summer of 2024. This involved a blend of direct outreach in Traveller-specific housing schemes, such as Drumgoold where Mr. Sludds works, and meetings with established Traveller groups in their local communities such as Clonroche, Taghmon, New Ross, Enniscorthy and Bunclody. We used community development methodologies to set a format to set the scene and explain the context for the consultation and to seek the input of Travellers on specific issues related to the provision and maintenance of accommodation. We focused on three specific issues including the different types of housing and culturally appropriate options available to Travellers and access to information about accommodation and related services. We also sought ideas as to how access to housing and accommodation services for Travellers could be improved.  A further consultation meeting was held in September to present and seek final feedback on the outcome of the consultation. The attendance and active engagement of two members of the staff of Wexford County Council housing section at this meeting was welcomed and very positively received.  The resulting submission was made by WLD in partnership with Traveller community representatives in response to the draft TAP for 2025 to 2029. A full copy of this submission has been provided to the committee clerk. There were a number of procedural recommendations including specific points in relation to consultation, representation, recognition of culture, access to information, access to related services, climate justice, health-environment and fire safety, the public sector duty and IHREC equality reviews, as well as in relation to budgets and plans and the need for more standardised reporting at a local level including numbers of new units, vacant bay or unit refurbishments, capital and current expenditure, etc. Examples of these recommendations included: a minimum of four full quorum meetings of the LTACC to take place each year; an annual schedule of LTACC meetings set out at the start of each calendar year; nomination of Traveller representatives to be carried out in collaboration with Traveller support organisations, and not via the PPN, as had been the case in the previous LTACC; the monitoring of accommodation preferences of Travellers on an ongoing basis through the LTACC; and the tracking and monitoring of data on Travellers living in emergency accommodation, that is, homeless. The TAP does not give us any numbers for Travellers in emergency accommodation yet we know Travellers were living in emergency accommodation at the time so the reporting paradoxes are hard for us to understand.  I will give one example of the failing of very basic procedures. In 2026 there has been one meeting of the LTACC, in February. A scheduled meeting in April was cancelled and we have not had a rescheduled meeting. Minutes of the February meeting have not yet been circulated. This one example of the lack of purpose and mandate and the failure of basic operational procedures. It is very difficult for Traveller representatives to remain motivated to participate on the LTACC when we are accepting this as normal.  In my opinion, the call by national organisations for a dedicated national Traveller accommodation authority with real powers to oversee delivery and monitor budgets and spending to ensure that standards and targets are met and to support local capacity must be seriously considered if anything is to change.  We have entered into a collaboration with the HSE, very much led by the HSE and ourselves, with Wexford County Council to do a piece of research into the living conditions of 50 Traveller and 50 Roma families in the Enniscorthy municipal district. That is being done with Roma families in Tipperary and Waterford. We will be the first county to look at doing it with Travellers and Roma. We will use the findings of this research as a lever to address health and related accommodation needs using the lens of the public sector duty to develop an implementation plan. This project is in procurement at the moment and should start in September.  I will now hand over to Mary Mongan who will give a brief input about culturally appropriate accommodation, homelessness and the real barriers families are experiencing. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Mongan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Mongan  I am representing the Enniscorthy district. I will start by speaking about culturally appropriate accommodation.  From my experience of being homeless with my husband and a young family it is not nice or easy. My children miss out on so much, most importantly their education. I have experience of both homeless accommodation and emergency housing. It is difficult to understand and manage the system. When living in emergency accommodation you must stay in the property at all times, and you are not allowed to stay away for even one night. You must ask permission to visit sick relatives. I am a Traveller and as part of our culture some of us still like to go travelling when the children get their school holidays. People might ask why we travel. We travel to visit family and to keep the children rooted in their culture and traditions. It is not favouritism for Travellers to ask this. Travellers are an ethnic minority, and after years we were finally recognised as an ethnic group by the Government in March 2017.  I turn to the effects of homelessness on parents and children. For parents it is a constant worry of not knowing where you are going to live and in what area you are going to live. Children miss out on their education. They cannot start school because they are being moved around and do not have a permanent address. This is particularly difficult for children with additional needs.  Traveller families experience so many barriers in the system. Choice-based letting is just one example. It is frustrating and difficult to use. While I can read and write and am computer literate, what about people who cannot read or write or use a computer? It is a system I feel is not working and there has to be more support put in place to access the system. Eventually, I got a house through choice-based letting but I was supported by WLD. Another barrier is trying to work and build relationships with so many local authority workers including social workers, social housing liaison officers, Focus Ireland and so on. You feel obligated to work with them. I felt that I could not say no, because if I did it could affect my getting a house. I feel that Traveller families would benefit it there were a Traveller specific housing officer in every county. It should be someone from the Traveller community who understands our culture.  I thank the Chair and members for inviting me and giving me the opportunity to discuss the important topic of Traveller accommodation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kathleen Connors","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kathleen Connors  I am here to speak about supports for the younger generation coming up. I have a 17-year-old and a 15-year-old. In another few years, I will be looking forward to them getting married. Where are they going to live? When I got married, I was told I could be between ten and 15 years waiting for a house. It is known that the Travelling community get married much younger than the settled community. We have our own property with plenty of ground, so it is for them to have a mobile. The way Travellers have it now, they can have the family together and my family can stay together on my property. However, is it still the case that we are not allowed to put mobiles in our yard or have caravans in our yard? For me it is about security for my children when they grow up, and it is security for them. It is for me and them. They are quite young. When they get married, will they have the security? If they get married quite young they will not have an income. If they are expected to go out into the world to pay rent and electric and everything else like food, they cannot do that. I am going back 30 years to when my brothers got married. My family owns its own property. They brought two small caravans onto their own property and got served with fines. They had to move. It was the same with my grandfather before that. They were getting fined if they were not moving. My thing is that the next generation coming up will have some place to go where they can stay with the family so they are together and have the support of their family, and they can support one another.  There is also the issue that the information available on choice-based letting does not work, especially for the Travelling community. There are those who cannot read, do not have phones, do not have Internet or the way to get the Internet if they have phones. You have to be checking that once a week, and if you are not checking that once a week you are taken off. That does not work in the Travelling community whatsoever. If you do not know how to read and write that is definitely not going to work for you, so that definitely has to change. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robbie Sludds","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robbie Sludds  I thank the Cathaoirleach and the committee for the opportunity to speak on behalf of the Traveller community. I am the FDYS Traveller inclusion project worker for County Wexford, based in the community house in Drumgoold, Enniscorthy, which is a Traveller group housing scheme with 14 houses close to Vinegar Hill. It has a long tradition of being a place where Travellers camped before their houses were built there. I will talk about accountability in the implementation of plans, policies and consultations Travellers participate in. Travellers who take part in groups and activities with our project are often consulted with. While many are open to further consultations there is a crucial need to see action and real change on the ground as a result of these consultations. People will not engage in consultations if they do not see any change. Once consultations are done, Travellers do not often see what happens next, if anything happens. There is little accountability. There are specific issues in relation to how Travellers access accommodation and related information and services.  Many people feel that they are simply not listened to. This is a theme across all consultations or engagement with services. Calls are not returned, emails go unanswered, responses when they come are often vague or unclear and issues that have been reported go unresolved. All of this leads to mistrust and lack of faith felt by members of the community in State services. Options that are available are not clear, given the high levels of literacy difficulties and the increasing previously mentioned reliance on online platforms to access information and services, such as choice-based letting, does not work. There is also the lived experience of ongoing social exclusion within the Traveller community. A lot of work on a daily basis is helping Travellers to access services that should be accessible in the first place.  Travellers want to be listened to by officials and policymakers and to have their concerns fully heard and responded to in a timely manner. This goes well beyond anti-racism and cultural awareness training and meetings, however necessary these are, and into the impact of on how things actually work. In other words, the effectiveness of efforts should not be measured by the amount of training, meetings or consultations but rather by the impact from the perspective and lived experience of Travellers themselves.  The Traveller community has told us what it needs time and time again. What is needed now is not another consultation but accountability that turns Travellers' voices into real action and lasting change. Ultimately, the success of any policy should be measured not by the number of consultations held but by the difference it makes in the everyday lives of Travellers.  I would like to pass on the floor to Ms Mary Connors. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Connors","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Connors  I have been a Traveller activist and community worker for what seems like forever. I have been involved in the LTACC in Waterford almost since it was established. I am a member of the National Traveller Women's Forum, the Irish Traveller Movement, Waterford Traveller CDP and most of the other Traveller groups and organisations. It is sort of embarrassing that there is no Traveller organisation in County Wexford, having the third largest population of Travellers in the country. No matter what the figures say, there are an awful lot more Travellers than are reported.  If you are in poor accommodation, you will not be interested in education, training and employment or all the other issues that come with it, or physical or mental health. You will be more interested in getting a safe, dry place for your family. If you have that, then you can work on education, training and employment and all the other issues. Therefore, for me, accommodation is the most important issue that needs to be solved.  I have sat on the LTACC in Waterford for about 20 years. For three or four of those years I was dismissed without knowing it until another person told me they were representing New Ross. I now sit on that LTACC as a representative of the National Traveller Women's Forum because I was dismissed. I rang them up when I found out I had been dismissed and said, \"Thanks very much. You could have let me know.\" About two weeks afterwards, I got a letter: \"Thanks very much for all your hard work.\" That is the way the council treats us. It can pick us up and throw us down and do all the rest, but the one thing about me is that I have staying power. I will keep at it and keep at it. I and other groups have brought on several Traveller reps from different areas in the county and they get fed up of it after two weeks, being talked down to and discriminated against. I have said at LTACC meetings, \"I would like that to be minuted\", and when I go back the next time it has not been, and I question that. It is not all about me but it is just that I am usually the only one there representing the Travellers because the reps will not stay on the committee because it is too belittling and humiliating.  There are loads of other issues but, for me, accommodation is the main one. The attitude of the council when, as they put it, \"dealing with\" us is, \"You know what this family wants, Mary, but we, Wexford County Council, know what they need.\" We are the experts. We have been at this for years. Looking back on it, we were all so hopeful in 1998, when the traveller accommodation Act was released, that in five years the Traveller accommodation situation would be totally solved. We knew, as the Traveller groups in Dublin and all the Traveller groups nationally knew, that it was not going to be solved in five years but we thought there would be a strategy there and a plan for maybe the next five or ten years or whatever after that. Where are we now? We are still in the same situation. Like I said, I have sat on the LTACC for years. I sat on the NTACC as well for a couple of terms. I am also involved with a TIG. I do not see us any farther. It is a matter of the attitude of the council, and at times the HSE, education and other bodies, the lack of interest and their attitude towards Travellers. I was at one LTACC meeting when the CEO said, \"All down this side of the table are very important, hard-working people.\" They were the council reps. I had to shout back at him, right or wrong, \"You have never seen a busier small woman than me and these people\", the Traveller reps on the other side of the table. That was taken as an insult and the council reps got up and walked out because we answered them back.  Is this going to improve the situation for Travellers? We have been so hopeful so many times, including of equal status. We said, \"They cannot discriminate any more now\", and then you get the vintners and everybody else and that just went out the window. We were the first in Europe to bring in the smoking ban. We were the first to bring in charging for plastic bags. We look brilliant in Europe. We are outstanding. In our own country, though, with our own people, we are a mess. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank all the witnesses for their opening statements. We will open the floor now to questions and answers. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-O'Reilly.S.1989-10-01","memberCode":"Joe-O'Reilly.S.1989-10-01","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joe O'Reilly  I welcome our guests. This is a great exercise in that we are focused on one area in a forensic way. Well done to you, Chair, on inviting your neighbours here. They should make sure that you treat them to some hospitality before they go home. They should not let you off without that.  To get to the questions, the third speaker, Ms Mongan, addressed my first question in that she raised the CBL issue. CBL, I know from my clinic work, and my colleagues will probably agree, is working well in a general sense. It is good for a lot of people but, as Ms Mongan says, it is an issue for Travellers. Does she want to be specific as to whether we should do it through professional workers, or what way would she say the county council should get that fairness into CBL such that Travellers can use it? I refer to the letting process. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Mongan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Mongan  I think the older generation of Travellers - not me or my kids or whatever but people who are older than me - want that bit of communication rather than looking at a phone. I could be wrong, but my father, for instance, would rather go in to see the doctor than talk to them on the phone or look at a screen. Does the Senator know what I mean? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-O'Reilly.S.1989-10-01","memberCode":"Joe-O'Reilly.S.1989-10-01","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joe O'Reilly  I do. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Mongan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Mongan  He is very old school. Travellers are old school. Even if it were once a week, maybe someone could come out or they could go in and be told, \"This is what is available\", and then someone could help them and ask, \"Do you want to bid on this house?\". Does the Senator know what I mean? You have to be very careful----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-O'Reilly.S.1989-10-01","memberCode":"Joe-O'Reilly.S.1989-10-01","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joe O'Reilly  It is just to get a practical way of dealing with the difficulty. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Mongan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Mongan  Say, for instance, I am still in emergency accommodation and I am looking for a house. If I bid on a house that I am not going to take, I am going to be taken off choice-based letting for two years, so you have to be very careful. What about people who do not know how to read or write and do not know what they are at? They might say, \"Sure, look, I will chance this anyway, although maybe I do not know what I am at.\" They may bid on something that they may have no intention of taking and then be two years gone off the list. Does the Senator know what I mean? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-O'Reilly.S.1989-10-01","memberCode":"Joe-O'Reilly.S.1989-10-01","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joe O'Reilly  Maybe we should discuss it another day in a specific sense or the recommendation that we could make. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  The choice-based letting was set up initially because of the large number of refusals in local authorities. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-O'Reilly.S.1989-10-01","memberCode":"Joe-O'Reilly.S.1989-10-01","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joe O'Reilly  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  That was the case in Wexford which had a couple of them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-O'Reilly.S.1989-10-01","memberCode":"Joe-O'Reilly.S.1989-10-01","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joe O'Reilly  It is working well outside of that difficulty. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  If people need that extra----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-O'Reilly.S.1989-10-01","memberCode":"Joe-O'Reilly.S.1989-10-01","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joe O'Reilly  That is my experience. I do not know what my colleagues would say. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  There is no choice-based letting in Limerick. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-O'Reilly.S.1989-10-01","memberCode":"Joe-O'Reilly.S.1989-10-01","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joe O'Reilly  In our office it is working but I do understand the difficulty and that needs addressing.  Ms Byrne speaks to Wexford, I presume, and some of the witnesses speak nationally as well. Does she think that Traveller homelessness is under-reported and under accounted for? If so, then by how much and has she any examples? That is an important issue. Are there examples of the lack of Traveller-appropriate accommodation or homelessness? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Marie Louise Byrne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Marie Louise Byrne  The numbers we have in the current Traveller accommodation programme have no reference to any Travellers living in emergency accommodation. We work with the national organisations because we do not have the resources to analyse the data at a local level to the extent, say, the Irish Traveller Movement would. As far as I know, at the time of the TAP publication the social housing summary assessment of need recorded that nine Traveller families were living in homeless accommodation around the same period. There is an anomaly in reporting. The LTACC has never recorded the number, but we know through our work on the ground that there are Traveller families living in emergency accommodation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-O'Reilly.S.1989-10-01","memberCode":"Joe-O'Reilly.S.1989-10-01","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joe O'Reilly  My third and fourth questions can be rolled into one. Travellers tend to marry younger than the settled population and that creates challenges with housing. I will link that to my question on the prospects of young Travellers who want accommodation. I ask the witnesses to speak a little to the experience of young Travellers. I have three young sons and they face challenges when they seek accommodation, either rental or otherwise. Will the witnesses speak to the challenges faced by young Travellers if they want to get married or otherwise? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kathleen Connors","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kathleen Connors  Travellers get married at quite a young age. They want to get married. If my daughter got married in the morning, she would go with her husband's family. She would go to whatever yard or house they may be in. That is a caravan and they are not going to move into the house. If my son got married in the morning, then he will stay in my yard. Travellers get married quite young and have no way of supporting their wife or husband. If my son got a wife, he has no way of supporting her so I have to support him, his wife and their children, if they have them. It is not that we have to keep our children close. In the Traveller community, they go off travelling in the summer. When my children come back, I have their base. I can provide them with security for when they come home. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-O'Reilly.S.1989-10-01","memberCode":"Joe-O'Reilly.S.1989-10-01","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joe O'Reilly  I will hone in on one specific area and read the question as I have it here. Given the importance placed on marriage and living near family in Traveller culture, how can LGBTQI+ Travellers be accommodated both by their community and through housing policies? Will the witnesses speak to that particular cohort? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Marie Louise Byrne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Marie Louise Byrne  Both myself and Mr. Sludds work with the youth service, which has LGBT services, but neither of us works specifically in those. The Senator has asked an interesting question. There is Traveller intersectionality. There are Travellers with disabilities, Travellers who are members of the LGBTQIA+ community and Travellers who are lone parents. Overall, if the system works for everybody then it will address some of the issues. The system is so broken for every Traveller and the key is to fix it for everybody, which will include all of those groups where intersectionality is an issue. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-O'Reilly.S.1989-10-01","memberCode":"Joe-O'Reilly.S.1989-10-01","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joe O'Reilly  I thank Ms Byrne for her interesting response. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Connors","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Connors  Ms Byrne, Ms Berry and I sit on the local Traveller accommodation consultative committee. The title may be long but it has a lot of meaning. There are also agencies and the Traveller inter-agency group, TIG, but there should not be a need for these organisations. I stand by the LTACC because as I have told them a few times, I am not here to accomplish anything because I know nothing is going to happen but I am here to see what you are at.  The TIG includes people from education, the Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na and community people. It is a group of agencies. If they were all doing their job, there would not be a need for the TIG because there would be an agency to deal with education, and others for training and employment and accommodation. They could phone or email each other but there should not be a need for these committees if the people on them did their job as they are supposed to. It is the same with the LTACC. With any of these groups, there should not be a need if everyone did their job.  There is one other thing. I have never been arrested in my life but if I did something wrong today I would know, when doing it, that it is wrong and that I can be arrested for that and sent to jail. However, there is no sanctions or comeback for these committees, the local authorities, the HSE, the Department of Education and Youth and all these agencies when they say, \"All right, sure that happened. That was years ago and so-and-so was in the job at the time, not us\". There is no accountability. I am sorry for giving out about it but that is the situation as we see it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  I agree with Senator O'Reilly that it is important for the committee to get the perspectives of the people who operate in different local authorities and ascertain how the operation of the LTACC is not standardised across all local authorities. I welcome the personal testimonies given by Mary Connors and Kathleen Connors. I compliment them on describing how they have suffered and gone through periods of homelessness. It is not easy to detail the impact of that on their families and I appreciate them doing that. It is important that we hear it.  I have a few questions on the LTACC. How many members are on the Wexford LTACC? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Connors","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Connors  I have been a member of the LTACC for about 22 years, apart from the time that I was thrown out and brought back again. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  I have trouble like that as well. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Connors","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Connors  My departure was not due to an incident. I do not know what it was but it happened. Several times we have managed to get two or three more Traveller representatives to join.  Ms Berry would know more about it because she is involved with primary healthcare. Lately there have been two or three. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Mongan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Mongan  A few of them have been cancelled. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Connors","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Connors  They are gone off it again, are they? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  A few of the LTACC meetings have been cancelled. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  That was going to be my next question. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Connors","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Connors  The representatives - the Travellers. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Elizabeth Berry","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Elizabeth Berry  There are only three of us, are there? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Marie Louise Byrne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Marie Louise Byrne  There are five Traveller reps currently. I am there as an adviser but I am not a member so I do not contribute to a quorum. I think there are five local elected representatives and then the council officials and that is it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  Five elected representatives from the Travelling community and local authority officials. Are there any other community representatives who are not members of the Travelling community? No. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Marie Louise Byrne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Marie Louise Byrne  Not on the LTACC. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  How often does the LTACC meet in Wexford? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Connors","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Connors  We met in February, I think. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Mongan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Mongan  February was the last one. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Connors","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Connors  It is four a year. It is meant to be every three months. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Marie Louise Byrne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Marie Louise Byrne  We requested four in a calendar year. So far we have had one. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  That is 2026. Can Ms Byrne recall if it met four times in 2025? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Marie Louise Byrne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Marie Louise Byrne  No. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  I believe there should be regulation around that. That should standardise how often it meets. Who is the chairperson? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Marie Louise Byrne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Marie Louise Byrne  The county chairman. It rotates on an annual basis, which is probably not ideal if it is only meeting. The chair of any committee is an important leadership role. In other counties such as Donegal, a Traveller man is the chairman of the LTACC. In having a rotating chair - in some counties it is a two-year term - some chairs show less interest and some are very active. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  That could form one of our recommendations. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  Is it a job the county chairperson gets along with being the chairperson of the county council? Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Marie Louise Byrne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Marie Louise Byrne  It is a one-year term. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  In Galway city, it is Niall from the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission. It only met once this year. It did not meet four times last year. There are five Travelling members of the elected representatives. The chairperson is selected by the members of the county council. It is their role to be the chairperson as well. When Ms Connors was relegated or suspended from membership, does she have any sense of how that occurred? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Connors","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Connors  Absolutely not. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  To go back to the five Traveller reps----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Connors","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Connors  There are very rarely five. It is only lately since the primary healthcare became involved with the LTACC that we have had three or four or sometimes five Traveller reps on it. Before that, it was mainly me. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  Did I hear Ms Connors say she represented the New Ross area? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Connors","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Connors  I did. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  Are the five Traveller reps who are members all representing an electoral area in the county? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Connors","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Connors  Yes, in an ideal situation they would. There would be one from north Wexford, one from south Wexford----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  It would follow the municipal district structure, which it is now, essentially. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  There will be one member of the Traveller community from each electoral distinct. Is that working well? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Connors","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Connors  No. In terms of having one from each district, you cannot keep people on it because they are humiliated, they are fed up, they see nothing coming out of it and they just say, \"Ah Mary, you do it,\" because they know I have been involved with it for years. They say, \"We have been to loads of those meetings, Mary, and nothing came out it. They said one thing and when I went to talk to them again, they said someone told you that on the phone, that was not us.\" They get apathetic about the whole thing. I cannot blame the people. I would be upset at first when I would say, the equal status Bill is coming out, the Traveller accommodation Act of 1998 is coming out. There is this thing and that thing and they would say, \"Ah yeah, Mary, I heard it all before. You go\". You cannot blame the people for that because they see nothing coming out of it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Elizabeth Berry","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Elizabeth Berry  For one of the LTACC meetings last year, I travelled from Gorey to the meeting on the morning. I was just on the Wexford bridge coming from the Ballycanew direction and I got a phone call that it was cancelled. At a lot of the meetings in the past, a lot of us Travellers would turn up but there was always one or two of the representatives missing. You do not get the agenda until the morning. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  What was the reason the meeting was cancelled that day? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Elizabeth Berry","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Elizabeth Berry  I am not sure. There was no reason. My boss rang me and said, \"Elizabeth, you need to turn around. Where are you? You need to go home.\" "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  In terms of the council officials who attend, on the occasions it has met, was the director of housing there? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Elizabeth Berry","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Elizabeth Berry  No. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  I assume the county manager would not be there. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Elizabeth Berry","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Elizabeth Berry  No. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  The director of housing would not be there. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Elizabeth Berry","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Elizabeth Berry  No. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Marie Louise Byrne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Marie Louise Byrne  The SEO for housing is there. That would be the highest grade present. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  On the Traveller accommodation plan, is an update provided at every meeting on the implementation plan? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Marie Louise Byrne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Marie Louise Byrne  No. That is what we are calling for. We are calling for oversight of delivery and monitoring of budgets and spending. The report can get quite confusing because you do not get anything in advance. For instance, my role and that of the community development team is to work in advance with the reps to prepare for the meetings, but you do not get to feed into the agenda and you do not have the minutes of the previous meeting until you are in the chamber. We have a huge list of recommendations around procedure. We were told they are all operational and they will be agreed at LTACC level. For instance, it would be to have a meeting in Drumgoold where Robbie works, which is a Traveller-specific housing scheme with 14 houses, where people can actually see the issues and Travellers can see the officials as well. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  One purpose of the LTACC should be to build trust between the community and the local authority. If it is not operating effectively, as the experience Ms Connors relayed, it does not help. We have a focus on Wexford but what I am hearing is possibly what I would I hear in other local authorities informally as well. In our recommendations, we need to mandate local authorities to have proper structures around the operation of the LTACCS. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  We can put that in our recommendations. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maurice Quinlivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Maurice Quinlivan  I thank the witnesses especially for their personal testimonies. The meeting today is about accommodation but other issues also affect the Traveller community. I believe a lot of that goes back to accommodation - mental health, poor health outcomes, unemployment and suicide. It is all linked to the lack of adequate accommodation.  We have heard their testimonies before from different people with similar types of issues - I feel like we are going around in a loop and I am only on this committee for probably less than a year at this stage. We are frustrated that there does not seem to be any action. What change would the witnesses make tomorrow to help deliver accommodation for Travellers? What is the simplest thing they would do? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Connors","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Connors  Make people responsible for what they are supposed to be doing, what they take on to do. Make them responsible. There have to be sanctions. Like I said a while ago, you have to be responsible for your actions or your inactions. You hear it every day of the week on the TV and radio. I am the manager or I am the director so I take full responsibility for this and I resign. People have to be responsible. I am sure people are well paid for what they do. They may do it in part but not as regards Travellers. There is always the attitude that there is a housing crisis in the country. Our answer to that is, there is a housing crisis and we are very sad about that.  It is terrible that people are living on the streets. However, why is there a Traveller interagency group? Why is there an LTACC? If they were not needed, they would not be there. Great thinking went into establishing those groups but they just never took off. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maurice Quinlivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Maurice Quinlivan  The problem is there is no accountability from the group. There is no agenda in the morning. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Connors","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Connors  They can do what they like. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maurice Quinlivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Maurice Quinlivan  It is appalling to give an agenda on the morning of a meeting, for instance, when you are on the way and probably just parking your car and then the meeting is cancelled. That is no way to treat people. It shows utter contempt for people to cancel a meeting, unless it was an emergency. I do not understand and I do not understand why they are not given an agenda either.  I do not want to get bogged down on the small stuff but the LTACCs need to work properly and there has to be some accountability. Are there any other suggestions anybody would offer if the Government was to make a change of policy? For instance, I was on the Traveller committee years ago when I was on the council in Limerick. I can repeat the experiences we have heard here. The committee did not meet properly. It was never there. I think I was the only public representative who ever turned up to it. It was depressing. What would witnesses like to see happening quickly? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Kathleen Connors","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Kathleen Connors  I would like for the council to speak to the people and listen to what they want because there is no point in saying they have got somebody a house and where it is, when the person does not want to be there or there are no family members there or it is not where they are from. The council says, \"This is your house, there is your key, that is it. Good luck. We sorted you out.\" We have heard many times about the council giving someone a house, saying they are going to fix this, that and the other thing and do stuff to it, but then that is it. There is no more communication from the council. They have phoned you and that is it, good night. The council needs to sit and talk to Travellers and ask what they want and, if they could do anything for the Travellers, how they could help.  There is no point in putting people somewhere and saying that person is then sorted, they are out of the way and that it is grand when they are not happy there, they do not want to be there or they are in the wrong place. The council can put someone who needs special care or has disability needs in the wrong place, in the wrong house and then the council does not come back or does not have any communication with those people again. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robbie Sludds","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robbie Sludds  Success should be measured by outcomes. After all is said and done, there is a lot more said than done. Travellers, from where I am based at the heart of the community, listening to them, day in and day out, are tired. They do not care about the acronym that hangs over someone's head. They want to see people who can actually make a difference in their lives. I hope today is not in vain because I have to go back and talk to those people to let them know something valuable is going to be done for them. At the end of the day, 20-odd years Ms Connors has been sitting on this and the rest of those sitting here are showing up all the time for the people they represent, every single day, including me. I would love to see something of value come out of the LTACC or some change that is going to make a difference in the Traveller community. They were recognised as an ethnic minority in 2017 but I feel they are not respected as a culture going forward. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Marie Louise Byrne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Marie Louise Byrne  On the question of something that could change on a national policy level, I know we will not see quick change on the ground but we really have to look at a change at structural level. National oversight is needed. I am a community worker. We always want power at the lowest level and the principle of subsidiarity. However, in this case, it is not working. It is 25 years of something not working. Without national oversight, I cannot see it changing. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maurice Quinlivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Maurice Quinlivan  That was going to be my next question, believe it or not. The Department will come in here, the County and City Management Association, CCMA, will come in and other local authorities will come in here and tell us that they spend their Traveller accommodation money every year. Anybody I speak to or whom my colleagues speak to does not see anything being done in their area. Where is that money going? We do not know where that money is going. I do not ever believe in taking away powers from local government, but in this case I think we have to. In this case, there has to be a national authority that makes sure Traveller accommodation is implemented, and without that, we are on a hiding to nothing. A number of people would agree with me on that. I do not know of any new Traveller site built in Limerick in years. I imagine that is replicated across the country. I hope our recommendations include some sort of national authority that makes sure Traveller accommodation money is spent properly. I thank everyone for coming here today and I appreciate their comments. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I am conscious there is a vote in the Seanad. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Anne Rabbitte","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Anne-Rabbitte.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Anne-Rabbitte.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Anne Rabbitte  That is okay. While everybody was talking, I was doing a little bit of googling. Believe it or not, in 2019, the Traveller accommodation expert review was commissioned and one of the main recommendations was that there be an independent chair. We should lean back into this because, if there is an independent chair, their function is to ensure the meetings happen and that everybody is getting their agenda and minutes on time. There is a structure. There is accountability. It is transparent. That is one of the first recommendations I would be putting forward. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  It should be for a fixed five-year term at least. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Anne Rabbitte","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Anne-Rabbitte.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Anne-Rabbitte.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Anne Rabbitte  It absolutely should. I certainly think that. We do not need to reinvent the wheel. It was done in 2019. We actually just need to see it operationalised. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  It appears it is done in other areas as well. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Anne Rabbitte","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Anne-Rabbitte.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Anne-Rabbitte.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Anne Rabbitte  Absolutely. That is the inequity of it all. When we talk about transparency, we need to have a barometer of every one of the local authorities to see how many meetings are happening. In my local authority, their meetings have not gone up online since 2019. That just shows the inefficiencies around the transparency of Traveller accommodation. I am from Galway. Deputy Connolly is from the city and I am from the county.  That speaks to the part about culture and the changing culture. We went into that a few times and Ms Mongan spoke about culture. Everybody has talked about culture. It is the cultural piece of the system not recognising. Would Ms Mongan like to speak to that? She talked about homelessness and overcrowding. I know there is a big issue within the Traveller community that overcrowding is not seen as being a homelessness issue. I might have to run out the door to the Seanad in a minute, but I just wanted to get in that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Mongan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Mongan  I cannot speak for every Traveller; I can only speak for myself and my family. I am one of three. I have only two sisters. My mother and father are in a small three-bedroom bungalow. I had a mobile home in their yard. It is still there but it is not liveable in. There is no heating. There is no proper running water. It just was not habitable. I have children with additional needs. I have five children. My sister has three. She and her husband live with my mother and father. My other sister, who is not married, my mother and father, my sister who is married and her three children are all living in the house. When the mobile home was not habitable for me, I did live with my mother and father for a few weeks. It was not working. It was very hectic. Seven of us and eight of them made 15 people in the one small bungalow. Nobody plans to become homeless. I found myself travelling back and forth so I had a bed to sleep in. I was sofa surfing. My husband is from Offaly. I did not want to stay too long on top of anyone. I was back and forward. The children missed out on so much. They really did, and I felt guilty for that because I am all for education.  My mother taught me to read and write and I did what I could with them so they would not fall behind and stuff, but the overcrowding is not talked about enough. Where would I go? Take for instance my mum and dad's yard. Where else would I go? You are not going to get a housing assistance payment, HAP, house. Nobody is going to rent to Travellers. If they think you are a Traveller they are not going to rent you a property so you have to try to get social housing. That is the only way out. I was not a priority when I lived in the yard, even though I had children with disabilities. I had a social worker from the council come out to me and say I was not a priority because I was practically housed when I was living in a yard and even though, as I said, there was no proper running water. I would have to go into the house to wash myself and use mum's house for washing clothing. There was no proper heating except maybe an electric heater, which is not good. It is dangerous to be plugging in an electric heater when you have to unplug the kettle first and unplug the heater if want to boil the kettle. It is so dangerous as well. A couple of times the plug nearly melted. I am sorry, I am probably rambling a bit so I will leave it there. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Anne Rabbitte","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Anne-Rabbitte.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Anne-Rabbitte.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Anne Rabbitte  No, not at all. While we talk about homelessness, there is a hidden group experiencing overcrowding within the Traveller community and it would be great if we could focus on that. I thank Ms Mongan for sharing her story but it is a widespread story among the Traveller community that needs to be understood. In the cultural response from officialdom she was not recognised as having a priority need, even though she did not have access to running water. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Mongan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Mongan  Yes. It is just basic human rights. Everyone should be entitled to it. You take for granted that at the flick of a switch you can have electricity and heating. I am housed now anyway and that is the main thing. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Elizabeth Berry","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Elizabeth Berry  When the younger generation, who have just married and are doubling up in the backs of yards and so on, try to move out and get rented accommodation their surnames can be an issue. Connors is a very big surname in Wexford and when they know that the family has the Connors name it is a \"No\" straight away. They say the accommodation has been given out or whatever. It is the same with the halting sites. I can only talk about Bunclody but I assume New Ross is the same. They are meant to be temporary but people are just pushed in there and never given houses. For the next generation coming up who want houses there is no movement. People are just stuck there for years. There is no moving on whatsoever. That is their forever home but they were not promised that going in. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed  I thank everybody for coming in. I want to come back to the organisation of the LTACC. Who do the witnesses think would be the right chair? Clearly there is an issue with having a new chair every year in terms of continuity. What is best for the LTACC? Do the witnesses have any strong views? I do not mean about a particular individual. We talk about an independent chair but the trade-off there is we want to put the onus squarely on Wexford County Council to get itself in gear. What is the best route? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Does it have to be member of the Travelling community or does it have to be----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed  I have an open mind. I want to hear. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Marie Louise Byrne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Marie Louise Byrne  I will quickly speak to that because I have a view of the national picture, as Mary does too, from talking to the national organisations. There are different situations across the country. It is not always the cathaoirleach of the county council. I was told initially that is the way it is and I, no more than anyone else, will accept that until you hear different and you wonder. Obviously, I have never seen the terms of reference. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed  That was my next question. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Marie Louise Byrne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Marie Louise Byrne  I was thinking about it over the last couple of days and I am not sure I asked for it either. That speaks to the procedure and whether there is an induction process or any sense of training. Training and development is an ongoing thing. Ms Berry is a trained trainer and does the Traveller cultural awareness training and the anti-racism training. That would have to be scheduled in. Procedural things may sound boring and irrelevant but they are incredibly important for a functioning entity. If you do not have the basics right then----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed  Yes, 100%. What is the view on the issue of the chair? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Marie Louise Byrne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Marie Louise Byrne  The people who are on the LTACC are best placed to decide. It has to be looked at on a national level as to whether it is an independent chair or from the body of members. I am pretty sure the current rotating chair system is not the most effective. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed  Okay. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Marie Louise Byrne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Marie Louise Byrne  I do not know what everybody else thinks, but I am reluctant to offer a view because there are different situations in different areas. An independent chair would be difficult if there is nobody but the elected representatives and the Traveller representatives, based on the current structures. The Housing Agency is doing research on the functioning of the LTACCs at the moment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed  Ms Byrne mentioned terms of reference. Did anybody ever get terms of reference for the operation of the LTACC in Wexford? The witnesses are saying \"No\". There were no terms of reference agreed or circulated.  Who would be the most senior Wexford County Council official, not by name but by level, who has participated in the LTACC? Has the county manager or director of services ever shown up? I do not want names, but what is the witnesses' sense of it? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Connors","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Connors  There was a senior housing officer. I have seen a lot of SHOs in my years involved with the council but it is generally somebody who is going to retire in a year or two and they are shoved in there until they are gone. They last a year or two. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed  Okay. It is a committee set up by statute so it is a legal committee and its job is to advise the county council on planning for Traveller accommodation, its management, etc. The representatives got a phone call to say the meeting was cancelled at very short notice when the agenda had just arrived, or they did not even get an agenda. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Elizabeth Berry","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Elizabeth Berry  There was no explanation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed  There was no explanation. I know the answer to this but it is kind of depressing. Do the representatives get plans around----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Elizabeth Berry","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Elizabeth Berry  No. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed  -----financial budgets or other plans? Are they coming into the LTACC in relation to what Wexford County Council has planned in years one, two and so on? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Elizabeth Berry","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Elizabeth Berry  No. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed  Is any of that information brought to the LTACC? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Elizabeth Berry","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Elizabeth Berry  No. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Marie Louise Byrne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Marie Louise Byrne  Not on a regular basis. Sometimes one of the elected representatives will specifically ask for numbers. You get the annual count. I do not think we have seen the 2025 one yet. It is difficult when there has only been one meeting. That goes back to the fundamentals. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed  Yes, but that is the whole point in terms of----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Marie Louise Byrne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Marie Louise Byrne  It is about that consistent reporting of targets. I work on a programme that is monitored to the nth degree twice a year. Our funding comes through the local community development committee, LCDC, and the social inclusion and community activation programme, SICAP, and is monitored with respect to targets, financials and everything twice a year in person. We have audits on top of that. There is a huge contrast. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed  That is not uncommon. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Mary Connors","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Mary Connors  And Ms Byrne is responsible for her decisions and actions. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Marie Louise Byrne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Marie Louise Byrne  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed  I agree with what the Cathaoirleach said earlier. Regarding terms of reference, we need to smarten up here. Professionalisation is required. There needs to be terms of reference, clarity on a chair, clarity on regular meetings, no cancelling of meetings at short notice, a clear agenda and that senior officials from the city council are committed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I totally agree with the Deputy. The structure suits many county councils at the minute because one meeting a year and cancellation of stuff suits the agenda. There is no focus. They do not necessarily want a focus. That is why this meeting has been vital in providing us with the reality on the ground, which is replicated time and time again. Galway City Council appears to be the outlier. I could be wrong. There could be other councils. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  It quite possibly is. In fairness to Mr. Niall Crowley, my experience of his role in organising the committee was very positive. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed  The kind of professional----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Connolly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Connolly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Connolly  He was not a councillor. He is not a member of the Traveller community. It was a decision that council management took to appoint someone of his stature to try to make sure that it worked well. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Does anybody else wish to contribute? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Marie Louise Byrne","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Marie Louise Byrne  If there is to be a restructuring on a national basis, the mandate would be important and it is about the purpose of the LTACC. In the acronym LTACC, one of the C's is for consultative. Is it consultative? There is a bit of ambiguity there. If we go back to the very basics - and sometimes we can overcomplicate things - about what is the purpose and what is this committee's mandate. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  There are a number of issues that we will put into our recommendations. On foot of that, we will invite the relevant Ministers in to issue our recommendations and demand that we see change in this. One of the things we are talking strongly is a national body to oversee Traveller accommodation. While none of us want to see the dilution of local government, the jobs are not being done. We want to remove the whole box-ticking exercise aspect from the LTACCs. For example, it is there, tick the box and we did it. Ms Byrne is right about the consultative piece. What does that mean in the context of delivering results?  The independent chair would be a vital component to our recommendations and to the success of LTACCs going forward for a statutory five-year period. I was cathaoirleach of Wexford County Council. I was chair of the LTACC. You were only getting used to the whole set up when you were gone again. I do not have to tell Ms Mary Connors this, but these things take time. A one-year stint is a waste of time when there are two-, three-, four- and five-year plans. Accountability is crucial as well, as are the mandatory meetings. I would not say the treatment meted out to Ms Berry was an isolated incident. If we went across the country, we would find similar. What we have gleaned from this meeting is that the entire structure of the LTACC has to be changed nationally with a piece in place that we can point to and say, \"That is the way the structure should be.\" This is obviously with consultation. We are not going to be dictatorial in the way we go about it. If we can make recommendations that are informed from having the likes of this meeting, it will go a long way towards improving the situation and being very definite about the direction we want to take it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Elizabeth Berry","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Elizabeth Berry  There are all the knocks that we had of going to them. I like going to them to bring back the information. It is just a knock every time and there are not enough of them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  We will certainly do all we can to improve and change the situation for the better. I thank the witnesses for coming along. We look forward to, perhaps, interacting with some of them again in the future. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The joint committee adjourned at 2.14 p.m. sine die ."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Traveller Accommodation: Discussion (Resumed)"}]}}]},"contextDate":"2026-07-16"},{"debateRecord":{"house":{"showAs":"Joint Committee on Education and Youth","committeeCode":"joint_committee_on_education_and_youth","houseCode":"dail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/committee\/dail\/34\/joint_committee_on_education_and_youth","chamberType":"committee","houseNo":"34"},"chamber":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/def\/committee","showAs":"Joint Committee on Education and Youth"},"lastUpdated":"2026-07-28T02:07:26+00:00","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/joint_committee_on_education_and_youth\/2026-07-16\/debate\/main","formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/joint_committee_on_education_and_youth\/2026-07-16\/debate\/mul@\/main.xml"},"pdf":null},"date":"2026-07-16","counts":{"contributorCount":10,"divisionCount":0,"debateSectionCount":1,"questionCount":0,"billCount":0},"debateType":"debate","debateSections":[{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/joint_committee_on_education_and_youth\/2026-07-16\/debate\/dbsect_2","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Allocation, Roles, and Training Needs of Special Education Teachers and Special Needs Assistants: Discussion (Resumed)","counts":{"speechCount":186,"speakerCount":11},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. John Kearney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gareth Scahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pauline Tully","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Linda Nelson Murray","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aisling Dempsey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ryan O'Meara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ryan-O'Meara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ryan-O'Meara.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Roche","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Roche.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Peter-Roche.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  In advance of today's meeting, we have received apologies from Deputy Jen Cummins and Senator Shane Curley.  Everyone is very welcome here this morning. I ask anyone attending remotely to mute themselves when not contributing in order that we do not pick up any background noise or feedback. As usual, I remind all of those in attendance to ensure that their mobile phones are on silent mode or switched off entirely.  Members attending remotely are reminded of the constitutional requirement that, in order to participate in public meetings, they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. Witnesses within the confines of Leinster House are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentations they make to this committee. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege, and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if any of the witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.  Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person or entity outside of the Houses of the Oireachtas or an official of the Houses either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.  On the agenda for today's meeting is inclusive education, and specifically the allocation, role and training needs of special education teachers, SETs, and special needs assistants, SNAs. I warmly welcome the officials. From the Department of education, we have Ms Angela Corcoran, principal officer in special education; Mr. Brendan Doody, principal officer in special education; and Mr. Kieran Rogers, assistant principal officer in special education. From the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, we have Mr. John Kearney, CEO, and Ms Helen Walsh, principal officer. From the National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS, we have Ms Ellen Guerin, assistant director for policy. From Oide, we have Ms Lisa Kelly, senior leader. I will now call on the officials to make their opening statements. We will begin with Ms Corcoran, followed by Mr. Kearney and Ms Kelly. They will each have five minutes to make their opening statements, following which we will have questions from members. I call Ms Corcoran. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Angela Corcoran","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Angela Corcoran  I thank the joint committee for the invitation to attend before it today. The focus of our discussion is inclusive education, and specifically the allocation, roles and training needs of SETs and SNAs. Inclusion is about making sure that every child and young person feels valued and supported to take part in learning. It strengthens the capacity of schools and educational settings to foster welcoming, supportive and inclusive cultures and communities. The school workforce plays a vital role in providing a high-quality, inclusive education for all children and young people and particularly for those with special educational needs. Every day, teachers and SNAs work together to help all students to take part in learning, access the curriculum and be fully involved in school life. Our education system is underpinned by a committed, professional workforce of teachers, including SETs and SNAs.  For the coming school year, 2026-27, there will be approximately 48,000 SETs and SNAs in our schools. SETs use a wide range of teaching approaches to meet a variety of student needs. This ensures that children with special educational needs in mainstream education are supported in their education journey. All mainstream schools are allocated special education teaching hours for this purpose through the special education teacher allocation. Schools are required to deploy those hours taking account of one of the key underpinning principles of the SET model: students with the highest level of need get the highest level of support. Comprehensive guidance has been provided to schools to support effective practice and the inspectorate has an important role in monitoring the quality of that practice.  The number of SETs and SNAs has increased annually to meet the needs of students in primary, post-primary and special schools across the country. Budget 2026 provided for an additional 860 SETs, bringing to approximately 21,500 the total number of SETs working specifically with children and young people with special educational needs in our schools in September 2026. This figure comprises SETs who work with students in mainstream settings, teachers working in special classes and teachers working in special schools. For the 2026-27 school year, over 15,200 of the SETs will work in mainstream settings, ensuring support is provided in the most inclusive setting possible. In addition, funding for 3,000 additional SNAs is being provided to bring the total number of SNAs to over 26,000 for 2026 and into 2027, a 63% increase since 2020.  The NCSE is responsible for managing SNA and SET allocations, which are notified to schools annually. The SET allocation model is updated annually in line with mainstream allocations, ensuring fair distribution of this important human resource across mainstream schools. The NCSE publishes each school's initial allocation annually, supported by the SNA review process, which is an holistic examination of the care needs in all settings within the continuum of provision in a school.  The Department recognises the important role that teachers and SNAs play in creating an inclusive education system. It is committed to supporting them through access to high-quality training and professional development, helping them to meet the changing needs of children and young people and ensuring that all students receive the support they need to thrive. In that regard, the NCSE provides a comprehensive range of training opportunities in special education to teachers at all levels of the school system. In addition, 388 teachers are facilitated to avail of postgraduate level training in special education each year.  The NCSE leads on training and building capacity of SETs and a schedule of inclusive practice for mainstream teachers. This is completed in tandem with a complementary support service by NEPS. Oide, the support service for school leaders and teachers, also provides significant support. NEPS provides a service to all primary, post-primary and special schools. This includes general support and advice from a NEPS psychologist, a case work service for individual children and young people where a priority need is established, national and regional support and development work to build the capacity of all school staff, including SETs and SNAs, and direct support from NEPS in the event of a critical incident.  The NEPS national and regional support and development service provides up-to-date, evidence-informed learning opportunities for all school staff. It aims to build capacity and, being preventative in nature, provides a greater reach for the application of educational psychology. NEPS support and development is delivered via e-learning modules, live webinars and in-person events. Topics covered address well-being and mental health, special education and inclusion, and literacy. NEPS also works in consultation with school communities to develop supportive school structures, for example, student support teams, and provides consultative support around issues that emerge in practice. Useful resources generally accompany NEPS support and development work to support implementation.  Oide supports inclusive education through high-quality professional learning opportunities for teachers and school leaders and, where appropriate, SNAs. The SNA workforce development plan was developed over a period of more than two years through extensive engagement between the Department and education stakeholders. The plan includes the establishment of an SNA learning and development programme. Actions under this pillar of the plan aim to support SNAs to enhance their skills, build confidence and contribute to better student experience and outcomes. This includes continued delivery of the national training programme for SNAs, currently delivered by the Atlantic Technological University, ATU, and which approximately 4,200 SNAs have completed to date. The Department of Education, through the NCSE, funds this course, which is delivered free of charge to serving SNAs.  The success of inclusive education depends on the skills, commitment and dedication of teachers and SNAs. Ongoing training and professional development help them to support children with additional needs and to ensure that every student can take part in school life, learn alongside their peers and be treated with respect. The Department is committed to providing the support and learning opportunities they need to do this well. I thank the committee and look forward to our discussion. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. John Kearney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. John Kearney  At the outset, I thank the Cathaoirleach and the committee for the kind invitation to be here today representing the NCSE to contribute to today's important proceedings on inclusive education.  The NCSE has a vision of a world-class, inclusive education system for Ireland, where children, young people and adults with special educational needs are supported to achieve better outcomes in their education and are enabled to reach their full and true potential. The NCSE supports schools to enable students with additional needs to develop skills for life so that they can participate meaningfully and to their fullest potential in society.  The restructure of the NCSE has effectively enabled the organisation to deliver an interdisciplinary, integrated national programme of teacher professional learning and direct student, family and school support. Teacher professional learning research indicates that a sustained model of simultaneous support for both teacher and student is required to embed practice across school communities in achieving inclusion and belonging. Since 2023, the NCSE has worked to deliver a multi-modal teacher professional learning programme in tandem with tier 3 supports to students. In the past decade, the NCSE has provided six policy advice publications to the Minister for education across a whole range of areas relevant to the provision of inclusive education. The most recent policy advice on an inclusive education for an inclusive society was presented early in 2024 and was prepared following an extensive period of research, consultation and deliberation undertaken by the NCSE.  Great care was taken to establish a strong evidence basis to inform this policy advice paper and involved extensive consultations and school visits, a multi-strand programme of research, international study visits and examined evidence of how education provision for students with special educational needs is supported within other jurisdictions.  Following the publication of the policy advice on inclusive education, work has continued under the technical support instrument of the European Agency for Special Education and Inclusion, which provides tailor-made technical expertise to assist in moving from policy to practice. This will increase the capacity of our education system to design and implement specialist provision to support inclusive education in mainstream settings, as well as improving awareness among stakeholders of what inclusive education can mean in the lives of children and young people.  There are already exceptional inclusive practices occurring in our schools right across the country that provide supportive and nurturing learning environments for students. Schools are using innovative approaches to teaching and learning, tailoring interventions to meet students\u2019 needs and accessing specialist support to ensure that all students have access to the curriculum and achieve their full potential. The NCSE commends and celebrates these best practices and seeks to embed these practices across the education system.  2024 saw the introduction of the school Circular 80\/24 which enabled the NCSE to have a greater overview of specialist demand at both special class and special school levels. The NCSE established the parents notify system and NCSE SENOs and team managers worked closely with school leaders, school boards of management and school patrons to establish classes with quicker timelines.  In addition to the SENO service, the NCSE provides an expertise-led, evidence-informed advisory professional learning service to all schools nationwide. All NCSE professional learning, including the highly successful NCSE Relate, provide a pathway to professional learning in a multi-modal manner, including sustained support for schools over two years, inclusion caf\u00e9s with follow-up support, coaching and in-class modelling, seminars and webinars, and in-school bespoke training to teachers and whole school communities.  The new NCSE Moodle learning platform is due to launch in September of this year with NCSE Connect, a quality practice framework for school communities, due early in 2027. The NCSE visiting teacher service provides teaching and professional learning opportunities directly to students, their families and to schools. NCSE therapy is an educationally based therapy service and operates a scope of practice encompassing a sustained in-school therapy and a regional therapy model.  We have an extensive professional development programme extending into the realms of autism, behaviour, student support planning, UDL and special schools, involving the areas of child protection and curriculum reform.  The NCSE advisory service provided 431 professional learning opportunities for 28,000 teachers in the current academic year. Plans for the 2026-27 academic year and beyond are well under way, with an additional 400 schools seeking NCSE sustain support programme on student support planning, inclusive pedagogy and leadership programmes.  The NCSE warmly welcomes the opportunity to join in the deliberations with the Joint Committee on Education and Youth this morning. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank Mr. Kearney. We will now hear from Ms Kelly. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Lisa Kelly","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Lisa Kelly  On behalf of Oide, I thank the Chair and members of the committee for the invitation to appear today. I welcome the opportunity to outline Oide's role in supporting inclusive education through high-quality professional learning and to share our work in supporting special education teachers and, where appropriate, special needs assistants. As Ireland's national support service for teachers and school leaders, Oide supports every primary, post-primary and special school across the country. Our role is to build the professional knowledge, confidence and collective capacity of teachers and school leaders so that every learner has equitable opportunities to participate, progress and achieve.  Collaboration is central to our work. We work closely with the Department of Education and Youth, the NCSE, the inspectorate and our wider education partners to ensure that our professional learning is coherent, complementary and evidence-informed. Every programme undergoes a rigorous design and quality assurance process involving practising teachers, school leaders and education partners, ensuring that our provision remains relevant, research-informed and responsive to the needs of schools.  Within Oide, dedicated primary and post-primary inclusive education teams support schools across the continuum of inclusive education. Our work is grounded in the belief that inclusive education is about ensuring every learner has equitable opportunities to participate, progress and achieve. This requires curriculum, teaching and school organisations to respond flexibly to the strengths, needs and aspirations of individual learners.  A significant focus of our work is supporting the implementation of the junior cycle and senior cycle level 1 and level 2 learning programmes. These programmes provide meaningful, personalised curriculum pathways for students with the most significant learning needs. They recognise that success looks different for every learner and place the individual student at the centre of curriculum planning.  Our professional learning reflects that philosophy. Rather than promoting a single model of implementation, we support schools to develop approaches that reflect their own context while maintaining a clear focus on meaningful participation, progression and achievement. We work with teachers and school leaders to strengthen collaborative planning, curriculum design, assessment and whole-school decision-making so that inclusive education becomes embedded in everyday practice.  Special education teachers are central to this work. Alongside our wider professional learning provision, Oide provides dedicated professional learning through a range of delivery models, including national events, regional provision, in-school support and self-directed online learning. During the 2025-26 academic year, almost 100 full-day professional learning events were facilitated by our post-primary inclusive education team for approximately 1,650 teachers, the majority of whom were special education teachers. These events focused on personalising the senior cycle curriculum and supporting implementation of the new senior cycle level 1 and level 2 learning programmes, equipping teachers to design learning experiences that are meaningful, relevant and responsive to individual learners.  While a significant focus of Oide's professional learning is on curriculum enactment, we also respond to priorities identified by the Department of Education and Youth. Most recently, this included professional learning to support implementation of the child protection procedures for schools. This work brought together teachers, school leaders, special needs assistants and ancillary staff in a shared learning experience, demonstrating the value of professional learning that strengthens collaboration across the whole school community.  Our experience consistently demonstrates that high-quality inclusive education depends not only on policy and resources, but on sustained professional learning that enables teachers and school leaders to translate policy into effective classroom and whole-school practice.  Oide remains committed to working alongside the Department of Education and Youth, the NCSE and our education partners to ensure that schools continue to receive high-quality, evidence-informed professional learning that strengthens inclusive practice and builds the capacity of schools to meet the diverse needs of every learner.  I thank the committee for the opportunity to address it today. I welcome members' questions. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank Ms Kelly. We will proceed to members' questions. They have six minutes each. There will probably be a second round of questions. I am conscious that when I interrupt to try to move people on that witnesses may have been trying to close out a point. I will give them a few minutes at the end to close out their statements if there are bits we missed along the way. Deputy O'Rourke is first. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darren O'Rourke  I will start with the Department on SNAs and their importance in schools and where things are going into September, recognising there was a lot of work done preparing a workforce development plan which was rejected by the union. The Chair can steer me in this regard. The commitment still stands that no school will lose an SNA next year. In relation to recruiting into SNA roles from September, is it the case we have a new circular and we are working with that? Is it the case that there are changes in the requirements for qualifications for recruitment to SNA roles, for example? Will Ms Corcoran give us an update? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Angela Corcoran","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Angela Corcoran  We have done a lot of work over the last two years with SNAs, including F\u00f3rsa, the trade union that represents SNAs, and other stakeholders to deliver the SNA workforce development plan. It is based around five strategic pillars. The Deputy knows that because we have presented to him before. A lot of work and a lot of collaboration and consultation have gone into that. We have been notified of the outcome of the ballot by F\u00f3rsa and while it is very disappointing, we very much respect people's democratic right to voice their view on the plan. We are engaging with F\u00f3rsa now and we are available to discuss and learn what the difficulty was in terms of the plan. The next steps will be determined by our engagement with F\u00f3rsa over the coming weeks. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darren O'Rourke  Something could happen between now and September, for example. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Angela Corcoran","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Angela Corcoran  I would hope so, yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darren O'Rourke  For my own information, what way----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I apologise. I will give extra time in a moment. I am just going to re-read something we read earlier. I ask members not to raise the issue of the F\u00f3rsa ballot and the rejection of the SNA workforce plan at the meeting today. The Department of Education and Youth and its agencies are in complex and sensitive negotiations with F\u00f3rsa at present. Comments that we might make could be prejudicial to the outcome of the negotiations. I allowed the question because I thought what the Deputy said was very relevant in terms of the status quo prevailing. I am just generally flagging it so that we can cover this without getting into the----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darren O'Rourke  That is fine. Let us just come back to that then. If I am an SNA today, does redeployment happen or am I in a precarious situation as things stand, if nothing changes between now and September or now and September 2027? Does the status quo prevail ? Does the redeployment scheme exist? There is now a question around whether it is FETAC level 6 or FETAC level 5 recruiting into posts that are advertised. There is a suggestion that new criteria are applying, which SNAs certainly do not feel should apply. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Angela Corcoran","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Angela Corcoran  On the content of the plan itself, there is an action to work towards level 6 over a number of years. There would be a very staged approach to that with certain exemptions for people who are maybe close to retirement, etc. That is being carefully developed in consultation with all the stakeholders. The survey of SNAs indicated that 80% of SNAs were in favour of increasing the minimum educational qualification.  In terms of next steps, I want to be very fair to SNAs and F\u00f3rsa. The Department is available to discuss all these matters. We will await the outcome of those discussions in terms of----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darren O'Rourke  To ask a straight question, if the Department is advertising for a new SNA post in the morning, will it be level 5? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Angela Corcoran","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Angela Corcoran  In all instances, those circulars were to come into effect from September and schools are very well aware of that. The standards and previous arrangements for recruitment were to proceed for the moment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darren O'Rourke  Okay. I thank Ms Corcoran for that. There is lots of development in relation to assessment of need and the role of access to special classes and special schools. Is the Department of education talking with the Department of Children, Disability and Equality with regard to how it might be implemented at a school level and the role of teachers in relation to that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Angela Corcoran","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Angela Corcoran  I will defer to my colleague, Mr. Doody, on that one. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Brendan Doody","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Brendan Doody  I thank the Deputy for the question. There are two quite separate processes. The assessment of need is a HSE process, as the Deputy is aware. The HSE has its assessment of need process and there is a function for schools in relation to the assessment of need. That function is very clearly laid out and involves the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, and the assessment officer from the HSE going to the school to get information from the school on the child's need. It goes back to the NCSE and the HSE and forms part, but is just one component, of the overall assessment of need. That process continues. There is no change to that process at all. Schools are still required to engage with that system as it progresses.  Separate to that is the question of what the Deputy is referring to, which is accessing a special class and a special school. To be very clear, there is no requirement for an assessment of need to get into a special class or to enrol in a special class or special school. There is a requirement for a diagnosis but there is no specific reference anywhere to there being a requirement for an assessment of need. I know our colleagues in the Department of Children, Disability and Equality and we do engage with them. We are constantly in touch with them about these issues. They would also be very clear that an assessment of need is not required for many of the health services or most of the health services, in fact. It is sort of needs led. I suppose it speaks to the big question as to the future direction of our system and----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darren O'Rourke  The Department has a forum in relation to that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Brendan Doody","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Brendan Doody  Yes. The Minister announced very recently the establishment of a forum on inclusive education. One of its prime functions is to develop a shared vision or shared understanding of what we actually mean. When we say \"inclusive education\", what are we talking about? There is whatever number of people in the room here. If we ask everybody to write their definition of \"inclusive education\", there will be common themes across it but there will also be strands and differences, different perspectives and so on. There are some people who would argue very strongly for more and more special classes. Others would say that is not inclusive; that is pushing us in a direction when the system should be going in a different way. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darren O'Rourke  In the opposite direction. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Brendan Doody","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Brendan Doody  The forum is a really good opportunity to develop that shared vision and will include everybody. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gareth Scahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Gareth Scahill  I thank all the witnesses today once again. This section on inclusive education we have spent the last couple of weeks on has been very extensive. We got to ask a lot of questions and hear from an awful lot of witnesses. The body of work that is going to be produced after this is going to be very reflective of all the good work that has been done and where we have come from, while also acknowledging there are things that can be tweaked left, right and centre. We all understand that.  We know the SNA role has evolved greatly. The job they do is supporting a lot more than what they were originally set up to do. They are supporting emotional regulation at the moment. The big thing we are hearing from a lot of the witnesses is that the roles are supporting people staying in mainstream education as well and that is what we want to see. We know there needs to be far greater clarity between the special education teachers, SETs, and SNAs. The resounding message we are hearing from everybody is about the training need and the continuous training need. A lot of messages we got from various bodies were that everybody acknowledges the training need, but whether enough is being done to allocate time for the training need to protect time so that training can be delivered rather than expecting the training to be done within people's time off or non-scheduled time. Is there anything the witnesses would like to contribute further to what they have said already with regard to that set time? That is open to everyone if they would not mind coming in on this. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Angela Corcoran","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Angela Corcoran  I will start off by talking about that national survey of SNAs I mentioned earlier. When we conducted that survey, a very significant 73% of SNAs were engaging with training in relation to their role, which is testament to their commitment and dedication to children with special educational needs. We met with them in focus groups subsequently. There is a report on that on the Government website. They told us they had this concern whereby they were really hungry for training and were engaging with it a lot, but they had this need for access to legitimate training that they knew was in line with best practice and Department policy. In terms of the SNA workforce development plan, we have a dedicated pillar that establishes a learning and development programme. That will involve working with the education centres, Middletown Centre for Autism and other stakeholders to put in place a structured system of training that SNAs and schools can access to ensure they have legitimate training opportunities. A figure of 60% or more of SNAs told us they had not completed induction for their role. The plan, therefore, includes an action to develop a structured induction programme. Other learning and development opportunities, including collaborative training opportunities with teachers, is something else we want to explore.  SNAs also told us that they do not very often have opportunities to meet with other SNAs, even in schools where there are large numbers of them. They are busy and do not have time to talk. The plan includes an action to develop communities of practice for SNAs. That has all been carefully developed.  In terms of time for training, the difficulty is that we do not want to impact on the time that SNAs spend supporting children. The contractual arrangements for SNAs include for time, in addition to classroom hours, for activities like training and development. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gareth Scahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Gareth Scahill  Is the time that is allocated for that adequately protected? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Angela Corcoran","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Angela Corcoran  It provides an opportunity for training. When the Senator uses the word \"protected\", does he mean is it enough time? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gareth Scahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Gareth Scahill  Yes. Is a set amount of time allocated to them each year? Is that sufficient for what this plan and the Department's surveys have identified? Some of the other witnesses may also want to come in on this. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Angela Corcoran","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Angela Corcoran  I will hand across to the others, but what I will say is that it is very much dependent on the stage the SNA is at in their career. Starting off, an SNA may have greater learning needs than someone who is more experienced, but we do know that the world of special education needs is evolving all the time, so there is a need to keep abreast of best practice. We have seen that SNAs are committed to that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gareth Scahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Gareth Scahill  With the minute I have left, I might just see if anyone else would like to comment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Lisa Kelly","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Lisa Kelly  Under pillar 3 of the workforce development plan, there is an action to align training opportunities for SNAs in schools and other agreed locations alongside scheduled teacher training days, including school clusters. Primary and post-primary teachers engage in school closure professional learning, as the Senator may be aware, and there is an action under that development workforce plan that SNAs would receive training at the same time. This would cut down on the time they spend supporting the students but would increase their opportunity to engage in professional learning or training. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Helen Walsh","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Helen Walsh  From the NCSE's perspective, in terms of the support that SNAs, SET teachers, class teachers and subject teachers require, it is often within their school time. The NCSE supports schools in a range of different ways. Our CEO just mentioned that in terms of requests for in-school support. We covered 2,700 of those requests this year in school time. Our model is expanding into the classroom. What we are seeing is that we can provide training about something or about how to do something. We are seeing that people may know about autism or regulation, but it is a question of how we show them how to support children within that class context and how we coach teachers. We are shifting our model into that space as much as we can.  For SNAs, there is Relate training and training on behaviours of concern available. When special schools open, we invite SNAs to exceptional closure days on child protection. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I am up next. I again thank the witnesses for coming in. We have had the National Association for Principals and Deputy Principals before us. Its representatives stated very strongly that there should be a national training framework for inclusive education. Has Department has given consideration to that in order to ensure that there would be a proper platform? At the moment, initial teacher training is good but can be hit and miss in terms of what people eventually acquire. Some individuals have to go off and do continuing professional development, CPD. Has any thought been given to a national framework? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Angela Corcoran","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Angela Corcoran  I will defer to Mr. Doody again. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Brendan Doody","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Brendan Doody  I think----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I skipped someone on the list. We might come back to that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Brendan Doody","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Brendan Doody  We can come back to it. I am happy to do that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I misread my notes. It is Deputy Coppinger's turn now and then we will go back to Senator Tully. I am conscious that members have to speak. If I go in the wrong order, I am going to mess up their speaking times. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Brendan Doody","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Brendan Doody  That is no problem. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruth Coppinger  Is it me next? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  People are going out to speak in the House. If someone has to leave, I will go one ahead of them and then revert in order to give them time. I apologise for that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruth Coppinger  There are three issues that I want to discuss. I do not know if I will have time to speak about all three. One is about the 1 September portal notification, which has caused a lot of angst. Last year, it was moved to 1 October. This year, it has been brought forward to 1 September. Why was it brought forward at a time when schools are closed and when teachers and principals are not able to help parents to apply for school places or make them aware that they have to apply? It is often the case that this happens on the basis of information provided by the schools. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Angela Corcoran","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Angela Corcoran  The parent notify portal is in its third year. It has proved itself to be a very important strategic tool in terms of forward planning for specialist provision. The engagement with the portal has been strong since it opened. We have been engaging with stakeholders all along. We have a special education consultative forum, which includes representatives from organisations like the National Parents Council, Family Carers Ireland, etc.. There is consensus among those on that group regarding the importance of effective forward planning and the need to build our capacity to announce classes earlier and provide greater certainty to parents and children. They have been well aware that we are on this journey to bring back that date and to be able to inform students and parents as early as possible. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruth Coppinger  In my constituency, there are a huge number of people who do not have any connection with the National Parents Council or the other groups Ms Corcoran is talking about. It tends to be a principal or a teacher who tells them that they have to get their applications in. To do it when schools are closed is just very----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Angela Corcoran","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Angela Corcoran  I acknowledge that schools are closed, but many are open as a result of the summer provision programme. Nonetheless, the advice for parents is that in the first instance they need to engage with their local SENO. We know that many have done so already. Every effort has been made to publicise the new date and to make sure that parents are aware of it. The key point I would make is that it is about doing better, being more effective in our forward planning and providing certainty. The parent notify system, as I said, is a valuable strategic tool and has facilitated the opening 584 special classes to date. When we commenced that in January----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruth Coppinger  Nobody disputes the need to get information to people earlier. I am just saying that the way it is done can mean that some people will not know about it. I just wanted to ask----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. John Kearney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. John Kearney  To add to what Ms Corcoran said, there are two elements to the portal. There is the planning information, which Ms Corcoran has given information on, and there is also the provision of year-round support for families. The portal is well embedded in the system at this stage. The NCSE is the national agency. Two years ago, it had about a 50% lens on parents and young children looking for specialist placements. That is now 100%, and parents continue----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruth Coppinger  I do not dispute that. I am just halfway through my points, if Mr. Kearney does not mind. I know how great it is; I was just inquiring as to why the date was changed.  I want to ask about schools that make appeals about SNA provision and where they go after that. I made representations on behalf of, for example, Hansfield Educate Together secondary school in my area. We all know that secondary education is now becoming the area where there is the least amount of provision. The principal of the school states:  ... the Department is increasing spending ... however we are not seeing it. The NCSE is simply not recognising our increasing needs and are providing no tangible guidance on how to manage.  We received word from the NCSE that they will not be giving us anything from our appeal. This is hugely disappointing and it's going to have a devastating impact on us as a school ...  Obviously, I am speed reading this. The principal also states, \"we have identified that 29 students will require School Support+ (The highest level of support). This support will be absolutely necessary for them to maintain their school placement.\"  Last year, the school identified 19 students in this regard. It is going to have ten extra students this year but no extra provision. To cut a long story short, it is going to have to talk to parents about reducing the time during which the children will be in school. The school feels that it has no other option because students will not be safe in classrooms. This is one school in my constituency, which is one of the youngest constituencies in the country. The school has gone through the appeals process, and no one has listened. What is it meant to do? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Helen Walsh","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Helen Walsh  I can speak to that in relation to the rigour of the process. There are two processes, and two independent groups of SENOs and team managers have looked at that particular school. I will leave the school aside and speak generally, if the Deputy does not mind. In terms of the numbers of review, we have carried out 1,132. There are----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruth Coppinger  Sorry, can I not ask about an individual school? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Helen Walsh","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Helen Walsh  I should not speak to the individual school, but I can speak to the general points that may be relevant to that school.  In general, when a school receives the outcome in question, it is really disappointing. What we have to say as an agency is that it needs the right support. Very often, the support it needs is not necessarily SNA support but SET support in that the existing SETs need support in relation to practice.  I would always say to a school that the NCSE can support them, but it may not be where they have identified the need. It may be in the area of practice development. I advocate that no school should go to a reduced school day without parental consent, but also that it should have exhausted every other possible option for training and support in this area. It is about the right support for the school and the children. I am aware that schools dispute the levels of need, but our process, which we stand behind, is absolutely rigorous in terms of identifying those. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruth Coppinger  Does Ms Walsh believe that the school does not need these SNAs at all? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Helen Walsh","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Helen Walsh  The outcome of the review and the appeal is that it does not, but that does not mean it does not need support. The NCSE is very happy to support schools, as I know it is doing, to----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruth Coppinger  What other kind of support is in question if it is not SNAs? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Helen Walsh","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Helen Walsh  It may be advisory support, therapeutic support, visiting teacher support or deployment support. When we examine schools in that context, whether it involves an SET review or SNA review, we always offer advisory support to really examine their practice. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruth Coppinger  I know, but advice and support is not on-the-ground support for the student. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Helen Walsh","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Helen Walsh  It can be within the classes where challenges have been identified. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I apologise for what happened a few moments ago. I was reading the list incorrectly. We are going to have Senator Tully next.  Deputy Coppinger asked her questions in good faith, and it is a line of questioning I would probably also have pursued. While I know she asked the questions in good faith, we should be aware that when we talk about special needs and supports, there is a very small risk that a cohort of children could be identified. I know that was not where the Deputy was going with her questions. I ask that the NCSE perhaps correspond in writing with the Deputy just on the specifics, which are relevant. I appreciate that the witnesses have to speak in more general terms, so if a member tries to go down a specific line, we will not be able to go there. Perhaps afterwards the NCSE could correspond with the member in writing. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruth Coppinger  Individual schools have been referred to here before. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  They would be raised in the context of building projects or school transport. I do not know the school. I imagine it is a very large one. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruth Coppinger  It is. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  The risk is tiny in that case. If I mentioned a school in Clare where there might be two or three children receiving support, there would be a small possibility that they could be identified. They would have a right not to be, but I accept where the Deputy was going with her questions. Perhaps the NCSE might correspond with the Deputy in writing, if that is okay. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. John Kearney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. John Kearney  From an NCSE perspective, we are more than happy to pick up on individual school scenarios with any Oireachtas Members beyond this forum. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Great. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruth Coppinger  We have had a back-and-forth on it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Very good. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pauline Tully","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Pauline Tully  Good morning to everyone. I apologise for being late. I have read the opening statements.  We have had a couple of sessions in this committee on inclusive education. A number of themes come up over and over again, but one is class size. Does the Department have any intention of reducing the student-teacher ratio? Class sizes are a huge barrier to inclusive education. I have taught classes with 30 pupils and classes with 15 and I have noted that there is an immense difference in the amounts of attention a teacher can give to students who may have particular needs. Most students are in mainstream classes. In primary schools, some teachers are still teaching classes of more than 30. That is crazy in this day and age. We have some of the largest class sizes in all of Europe. Is there a clear intention to reduce the student\u2013teacher ratio? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Angela Corcoran","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Angela Corcoran  The Department is committed to providing positive support structures for schools and children. For example, in addition to class teachers, we have special education teachers and a SET allocation that provides additional support. We have SNAs, as we have mentioned here. We have 48,000 SETs and SNAs in the system supporting schools. We support schools through training, whole-school approaches and policies that support children and staff. The Department is committed to providing additional supports and making things better. All our work in special education and across the Department is undertaken with the objective of delivering more and better for children with special educational needs and for children across the system. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I apologise for cutting in. That is a policy decision for a Minister and for the budget. The pupil\u2013teacher ratio for the following year is usually announced. I respect the question but I am advised it is not within the remit of today's meeting. We will let the question go. Class size does make things difficult in the classroom, though. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pauline Tully","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Pauline Tully  We are talking about inclusive education for every child attending school at primary and secondary levels. Not all children require a special class or special school. The majority of children in our school system are in mainstream classes. They deserve to be taught and they have different needs.  There are 39,000 children in classes of 30 or more. If we are serious about inclusive education, we should realise that while we need special schools and special classes, an increasing number of both are being opened, with the danger of segregation in our education system. We need to consider having all our children in an inclusive environment and being able to be taught in their local school. The student-teacher ratio is vital in this regard. However, I take the Chair's point. If we are serious about the matter, we have to reduce class sizes.  Many students require assistive technology, but the criteria are quite strict. Consider where a school indicates that a student's writing is extremely poor and that they need assistive technology. I have come across several cases in which children have been refused it, which is going to make their lives much more difficult. Is there a better way of looking at this? I realise that there are tests and that a certain level has to be reached, but what is the position if a student's handwriting is so poor that they require the technology? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. John Kearney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. John Kearney  Those matters are under consideration. The circular on assistive technology is currently under review. It is picking up on the exact points the Senator has raised. They have been presented and will be factored into the revision and ultimate publication of the circular, which will allow greater flexibility and autonomy for individual school communities to pick up on the exact issues the Senator is raising. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pauline Tully","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Pauline Tully  That is welcome. Since it is under review now, can we expect a decision on it? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. John Kearney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. John Kearney  Yes, very soon. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pauline Tully","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Pauline Tully  Do we know how many schools are teaching the level 1 and level 2 programmes at junior and senior levels? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Brendan Doody","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Brendan Doody  I will answer that, if that is okay. The Senator will find that the level 1 learning programme is being taught in many, but not all, special schools. The level 2 learning programme is available for all students who require it. The Senator will find it in special schools but also in mainstream post-primary schools. I do not have an exact figure for the number of schools providing the programme. What we would say all the time is that the programme of learning followed by a student has to meet that student's needs. If a school identifies that a student has the capacity or capability to engage with the level 2 learning programme, it is provided.  Perhaps my colleague in Oide might be able to answer or reflect on some of the training supports that are provided. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Lisa Kelly","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Lisa Kelly  I do not have the exact figure to hand today, but a programme is available to all schools. Where a mainstream or special school identifies that a level 1 or level 2 learning programme is the most appropriate curriculum for a student, based on the individual student's strengths and needs, it can certainly introduce it. Oide provides both school-closure and professional learning to support schools in identifying whether it is an appropriate curriculum for the students, and schools can apply for individual bespoke school support on a sustained basis. A member of my team would visit the school for three days over the course of the school year or make a once-off visit. Additional professional learning is available through our website, etc. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. John Kearney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. John Kearney  A very exciting development in relation to level 2 certification is that the State Examinations Commission certified level 2 participant schools this year. More than 100 were awarded certificates. It is a significant progression mark or milestone in inclusive education. We will revert to the committee with the exact details of how many schools are availing of the certification route. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pauline Tully","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Pauline Tully  I thank the witnesses. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  It is now my turn. I have a few questions. The first is for Ms Guerin. In-school counselling has been piloted. By all accounts, it seems to have been a success, but Neart continues to be online at second level.  I take the view, and I hear it from other teachers, that there is no substitute for face-to-face contact and helping a student through the difficulties when you are in front of them. Are there any plans to move that offline and get it into schools physically? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Ellen Guerin","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Ellen Guerin  I am not aware of any plans to move it offline. Since the Neart programme was launched and the registration started, 90% of post-primary schools have registered for access to Neart. The usefulness and the popularity of the Neart supports is indicated by the number of parents who have also registered for the supports that are available through Neart online. The information we have to date has been very encouraging. It has provided a reach in supporting the well-being and mental health of our young people at post-primary level that was much-needed in the system. I am sure that it will continue to act as a complementary support to the supports that are being provided by other support-and-development work from our service in NEPS, which is available to our post-primary schools, and also the supports that are available for teacher professional learning and the development of our SNA workforce through Oide and the NCSE. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank Ms Guerin for that comprehensive answer. On NEPS, everything we are talking about here is loaves and fishes. Unfortunately, that is where we are at the moment and will be until capacity increases significantly. I am aware that children who need to be seen by NEPS get seen, but that could be at senior infants or first class. They might be an entirely different child by the time they are in fifth class. You could have a child who arrives at school non-verbal. They could thrive, and then they are heading into adolescence. Their needs are changing by the year yet, from what I am hearing, there is no NEPS capacity to see a child for a second time within the eight-year primary cycle. I do not think that is official policy. It is just the loaves and fishes scenario. Is that widespread or is there scope for NEPS to repeatedly see a child if the need is there? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Ellen Guerin","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Ellen Guerin  The committee members will all understand that the support from NEPS is based on our staffing. We currently have 242 psychologists employed by NEPS nationally. We endeavour to provide the best possible support we can to all of the schools and through our casework service, which is a substantial part of our work in schools and accounts for 80% of our service delivery time, we endeavour to meet the needs of as many schools, and children and young people within those schools, as far as possible.  In relation to the Cathaoirleach's specific question, it is fair to say that our focus is and always has been on direct involvement with children and young people with the greatest level of need. If a child is seen by our service, and in time needs to be seen again by our service, we consult very closely with the school principals in our designated schools and we work very hard to ensure that we are available where the need is present. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank Ms Guerin. I apologise. I want to get one more question in before my time runs out. I will ask the Department about the teacher training question I was trying to come to earlier. I myself trained in Mary Immaculate and I had a wonderful few years there. Looking back, neither I nor my colleagues coming out were fully trained for what was ahead of us. There were general things we were familiar with but at times I found myself having to go off and research, sometimes on the laptop while the children were working in the classroom. That is not good enough. Will mandatory continuing professional development, CPD, come in or will there be better training and a national framework for training teachers in special education? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Brendan Doody","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Brendan Doody  It is important to recognise the purpose of initial teacher education, ITE, is not to produce the fully-fledged perfect teacher. When you qualify at age 21, 22 or whatever, you are very much at the first rung of the ladder. It is a comprehensive programme, as the Cathaoirleach said. He went through the process in Mary Immaculate.  Nobody would disagree with the Cathaoirleach on the need for more attention to teacher professional learning. The Cathaoirleach's colleagues on the disability side have produced a really good report on inclusive education for persons with disabilities. We have our education for persons with special educational needs, EPSEN, review. We have our roadmap for inclusion. There is a common theme running across all three reports and it is around teacher professional learning - more of it and more often. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Will the Department go so far as to have a national framework where all teachers will have it? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Brendan Doody","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Brendan Doody  It is one of the key themes of the forum. We have to agree what teacher professional learning looks like into the future. The Cathaoirleach referenced the question of mandatory teacher professional learning. It is perhaps unusual that our system does not formally require you to engage in teacher professional learning. Once you leave Mary Immaculate, for example, you can retire 40 years later and you might not have done any teacher professional learning. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I will be very honest here. Before I became a TD, I would probably have been at home this week doing an online course. Some teachers are highly motivated to do something that they will drive on in September when they are back in the classroom. Some summers, when our children were newborns, the house was chaos. You were not sleeping at night. You were doing a very handy course to get three days extra personal vacation, EPV, during the year - I am being honest and that is my take on it - for a couple of years at least. It needs to be more serious than that.  CPD needs to have a national framework. It needs to be far more carrot than stick. It needs to reward the teacher, maybe with additional leave days, but it needs to upskill them ultimately so that their role is interchangeable. They could be in a sixth class SET. They could be in a multi-disability class. We have to assume that they have a skill set that can go anywhere within that school environment.  I am out of time, sorry. I call Senator Nelson Murray. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Linda Nelson Murray","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Linda Nelson Murray  We have spent the past few weeks having very good discussions on inclusive education. It is good that we are here to speak constructively but also to acknowledge the positives. We have \u20ac1.1 billion going into SNAs this year. We have 26,000 SNAs in the country. Their number has doubled in the past ten years. We have therapeutic supports. We have a new circular. It is good to acknowledge the good work that is being done and at the same time look at what we can do to make it even better because we are hearing from people who have been in over the past couple of weeks that there are things we can do to make it better. On that, I have four points.  The first is on the SNA numbers, which, as I mentioned, have doubled. Is there a number that the Department feels we are going to get to or that we need to get to to make sure we have full inclusive education? On another aspect on numbers, I would say to Senator Tully that my daughter is in a class of 36. We are not talking about that today but I feel that when it comes to children who need inclusive education that the class numbers are still very high. Is there a magic number there?  Gap-filling came up a lot last week, with Dr. Rob Webster from the University of Greenwich and Dr. Claire Griffin. I refer to SNAs coming in and gap-filling when teachers need to do something else. How do we see ourselves tackling that?  Another issue is the July provision. I do not know about my fellow colleagues here, but I was inundated three weeks ago with calls from schools all over Navan and Trim trying to see were they going to get the amount of people in for the July provision. It was down to the last week and they still did not know what was happening there. Have we looked at what has happened this year? Will we improve on it next year?  Training has been mentioned a couple times. It definitely has come up, whether it is that SNAs or teachers need other time to train, whether it is taking an extra day off in the year to go and do it, or where they are to do it. The Irish Primary Principals Network, IPPN, said here last week that 61.5% of the schools it surveyed stated that the SNA posts were not sufficient to meet the needs of children and only 10% agreed that school staff had access to the requisite training, supports and services to equip them to respond effectively to behaviours of concern. They were talking about more difficult behaviours and whether they were ready to meet those needs. A couple of others mentioned it as well. On the numbers part and SETs as opposed to SNAs, they also said that an extra 3,000 posts were needed.  There are my four points in three minutes. I was very good there. I would be grateful if the witnesses could come back on those. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Angela Corcoran","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Angela Corcoran  In terms of numbers, in relation to SNAs, we will have almost 26,000 at the end of next year. That is a significant increase in that workforce over recent years. The commitment from the Department is that we will have sufficient numbers to meet the needs of the children but, as was mentioned at the committee last week, which the Senator referenced, sometimes it is about more than numbers.  It is about building capacity among the workforce. The SNA workforce development plan includes a pillar on learning and development for that reason, namely, to support SNAs, whom we know are very committed to training because we have seen from the surveys that 73% of them regularly engage with training. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Linda Nelson Murray","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Linda Nelson Murray  Does Ms Corcoran see the numbers increasing from 26,000? Is there a magic number? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Angela Corcoran","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Angela Corcoran  It is very difficult to say. The prevalence of autism is increasing, which may affect the numbers. The commitment is that we will continue to provide sufficient numbers of SNAs as they are required to support children to attend and participate in school life.  We have a very robust allocation model that identifies the level and the requirement for special education teachers and has shown itself to be quite a strong, strategic and powerful tool in terms of ensuring there is support for children. Between those two models - the special education teacher and SNA allocation models - there is a tool to provide sufficient support----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Linda Nelson Murray","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Linda Nelson Murray  What about the July provision and gap filling? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Angela Corcoran","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Angela Corcoran  In terms of the gap filling, the academics who were before the committee last week mentioned that role. That is what we have done in terms of the SNA workforce development plan. We reviewed the role, went back to basics, looked at the SNA role - how it sat in the school community, how the SNA interacted with others in the community, what the school community needed from the SNA and what the SNA needed from the school community - and built the circular that addresses all of those things in terms of the evolved role of the SNA, including support for well-being, transitions and participating in learning. There is a need for training as well, though, and that is something we have identified as an action in the SNA workforce development plan. This would entail broader training for SNAs themselves, but we also intend to explore collaborative training with teachers as part of the plan so that they are very clear about their roles in the classroom and the child gets the appropriate level of SNA support to allow him or her to participate in school, maintain his or her autonomy and build his or her independence as far as possible. When we met teachers in focus groups, they told us that they did not always feel equipped to manage that relationship with the SNA and vice versa , so there is a need for that collaborative training, which we have included as an action in the plan. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Linda Nelson Murray","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Linda Nelson Murray  What about the July provision? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Angela Corcoran","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Angela Corcoran  The summer programme has been running for many years. Schools are very familiar with it, so they are prepared and ready to engage. We are always trying to do things better. Our job is effectively to do better for children with special educational needs and other children, so we will listen and----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Linda Nelson Murray","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Linda Nelson Murray  What about the appeals side? Schools are trying to find out whether they are going to have the right numbers to be able to run it effectively. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Angela Corcoran","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Angela Corcoran  We will listen to the messages that have been conveyed about the summer programme and endeavour, as we always do, to improve. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Hopefully, we can get more into this in the second round. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aisling Dempsey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aisling Dempsey  I thank all of the witnesses for being here. Apologies if there is any repetition, but I was next door at the committee on children.  My first question is for the NCSE. The reintroduction of therapies in school that was announced is a positive change. Recruitment has commenced in 45 schools. Will the NCSE give me an update on that? Will any be ready to go in September? When will those 45 schools be done? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. John Kearney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. John Kearney  I commend the Deputy and her colleagues on realising the programme for Government and putting the investment behind it in terms of the education therapy service, ETS. It is building on the announcement last year of the 39 therapists, who have been fully recruited. We are working our way through the first phase. There are three phases to the roll-out of the ETS. The first phase involves 45 special schools being supported. Recruitment is progressing quite well in that regard and we will have therapists for the 45 schools, with various levels of support provided. That will be built upon as the recruitment campaigns progress and intensify. There has been a good, tentative start and the view is to continue that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aisling Dempsey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aisling Dempsey  Will the 45 schools have something by next----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. John Kearney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. John Kearney  Not all of the 45 schools will have the same degree of support, but there will be a layer of support for all of the 45 schools. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aisling Dempsey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aisling Dempsey  That is great. To be very parochial, regarding the need for special classes and places in Meath, does Mr. Kearney know what the remaining need will be before September? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. John Kearney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. John Kearney  I do not have that information in front of me, but as per previous queries relating to the portal, we have data underpinning this and have a complete profile of every county. We know what the level of demand and provision in County Meath is and every indication is that we are closing it out. I can revert to the Deputy on the substantive detail behind that query. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aisling Dempsey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aisling Dempsey  When the portal opened, a number of people who were quite concerned came to me. They were told about it during the summer months when the deadlines were 1 and 15 September. Can Mr. Kearney give an assurance that those are not necessarily hard stops? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. John Kearney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. John Kearney  Yes, I would be delighted to give that assurance. The matter has come up as part of the discussion. There are two aspects to the portal, one of which is the planning perspective with the deadline of 1 September. To reassure the parents with whom the Deputy is dealing with daily, the portal is open all year round. It is a provisional lens in terms of what is required. The NCSE and, by extension, our departmental colleagues are working with local school communities with a view to expanding the special class capacity to attend to that. That is part of the expanded delivery this year. For the past three to four years, approximately 400 special classes have been provided yearly. This year, we are at the 585 mark. It was the portal that enabled us to do that with the data and insight in terms of working with local schools delivering on that. That reassurance will continue for each and every one of those young children and their families in terms of providing the provision that is required for them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aisling Dempsey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aisling Dempsey  Brilliant.  How flexible is the NCSE in providing accommodation for special classes? A better way of putting it might be to ask what flexibility the Department will give the NCSE. I met a private provider of after-school care last week that spoke about the complexities it faced in delivery. It mentioned a school where it had put a prefab on site for its service, and it then allowed the school to use the prefab during the day. It was not for a special class; the school was not given sanction for one. It made me wonder afterwards whether the NCSE would have flexibility in a situation like that to use a prefab provided by somebody else for a special class during the day. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. John Kearney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. John Kearney  We will pick up the individual details of the school and discuss that with our departmental colleagues and the local school community on how best to progress it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh  How many children are still without an appropriate place for September? Does the NCSE anticipate all children having an appropriate place? I know the Minister has said that there are sufficient places to meet overall demand but the reality on the ground is not quite there. A lot of parents have already contacted me to tell me that their children are without places. There are cases of children who applied last year, did not get in and are reapplying. What is the overall picture? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Helen Walsh","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Helen Walsh  The Minister is correct. The overall provision is there. We are still drilling down into some local hot spots. We know it is difficult for parents because they sometimes do not get exactly the school they want or there may be a bit of travel involved, so we try our best to reduce that. Our contact with parents is on a weekly basis at this point to try to run them through the options of school admissions. I know that we are in the summer now, but the admissions process is still ongoing on in many schools across the country and there is a little bit of waiting for parents to find out whether they are on the waiting list. We always say to parents to apply to as many places as they can. Unfortunately, that generates refusal letters. We are very aware of certain hot spots, predominantly within the capital and some of Kildare. We are satisfied that there is sufficient provision. It does not mean that every parent will get their child into exactly the place they want. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh  How confident is Ms Walsh that we will not have a repeat of what happened last time? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Helen Walsh","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Helen Walsh  I am confident of the provision. I cannot speak to each individual child but we are very happy that we have worked early enough to get those 585 classes open and the expanded provision in place in special schools.  We are satisfied that enough is being done but that does not mean we do not have to work with every individual parent and child to get them as close as possible to where they want to be. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh  Does the Department agree that there is unmet need in the area of SET support? We have heard from the unions that the caseload of teachers is very high and that children are going without support they need. It is welcome that there is such an increase in the number of SNAs but we heard from Dr. Claire Griffin of Mary Immaculate College last week and she was saying that the worry is that we think adding SNAs into classes is the answer when we really need to take a whole-school approach. If we had the right professionals, such as occupational therapists and speech and language therapists, we would not need as much SNA support. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Angela Corcoran","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Angela Corcoran  That is why there is an action under pillar 3 of the SNA workforce development plan, which relates to learning and development, to look at collaborative training between teachers and SNAs to ensure the boundaries of both roles are clearly understood and that both are equipped to manage that relationship. We see this as something we can strengthen into the future. We certainly aim to do that within the SNA workforce development plan, along with other actions relating to training for teachers. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Brendan Doody","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Brendan Doody  We have 15,000 special education teachers. It is really important that the structures in schools support the delivery of the best support for students. That support is sometimes best delivered on a co-teaching platform, where the special education teachers work with their colleagues in the mainstream. Sometimes, it is best to take a small group out. Other times, individual support is best. This is a very significant measure that is in place to assist schools to support the students with the greatest level of need. It behoves us to ensure that the schools where the needs are greatest receive the greatest number of special education teachers. That speaks to the way in which they are allocated from the Department and the NCSE out into the system. That is really important. It is now part of the annualised deployment scheme. It is really important that we get the very best out of special education teachers. It is therefore really important that we provide them with the best opportunities to train and to engage in upskilling and so on. This training is provided by colleagues in the NCSE and in Oide. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh  I have been in that role. I was a special education teacher for the majority of my time working in primary school. I was doing speech and language therapy. I was online. I was trying to do it all but I did not have the qualifications. You do the best for your kids. While we are adding more SNAs and have the special education teachers, we need a whole-school approach. That is the worry. We need more speech and language therapists and occupational therapists in our schools. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Helen Walsh","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Helen Walsh  In the broader conversation on inclusion, we very often focus on the role of the SET or the SNA. When we talk about inclusion, we are really talking about teams and collaboration with the class or subject teacher. Alongside the significant resources that have gone into the system, we have to get into classes and subject areas. We have to start looking at what are the right supports for a class teacher to support the diverse student population within his or her class. Equally, we have to consider subject teachers at post-primary level. We have to stop limiting our understanding of this to just SETs and SNAs. We have to start looking at the whole-school community to see how we can develop everybody's practice to ensure we are not dependent on SETs or SNAs. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh  In my last second, may I ask----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  If the Deputy wants to get a question in, I will allow her 30 or 40 seconds. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh  I wanted to very briefly go back to the summer programme, formerly July provision. I am not just asking about the window. I know of a school in Kildare where the principal could not provide the programme because the teachers could not do it. She could not hire enough of her own teachers. It was a huge problem. What have we learned so far as to how to address that in the future? How can we ensure it is available for all the families? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I ask the witnesses to be brief in their response. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Angela Corcoran","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Angela Corcoran  We look to improve continuously. It is open to schools to recruit others. Educationposts.ie provides that service. Students can be taken on. Student teachers can do a placement on the summer programme. That provides additional support for the programme. We are looking to continuously improve. The personal rate of pay for teachers and SNAs has increased to incentivise participation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh  The principal was worried about recruiting other teachers. She did not feel it would be a safe environment if all of the teachers came from other schools. She could not get her own teachers to do it because of their own personal reasons. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  We will get a second round of questions in. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ryan O'Meara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ryan-O'Meara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ryan-O'Meara.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ryan O'Meara  I thank the witnesses for being here today. I apologise that I missed their opening statements. Like some other colleagues here, I was in the Chamber for oral parliamentary questions on education. I have the statements in front of me, however. I got through them before the meeting.  I want to focus on some of the points that were raised when some of the representative bodies were here. They relate to how SET hours are allocated to a school and the data that is used. The witnesses might be aware of the conversation that happened but it is a point that has been repeatedly raised and on which there was general consensus across the representatives who were here that day that it is unusual that live data is not fed from the schools into the Department or elsewhere when the POD system or something like it could be used. I would like to get an understanding of how the hours are broken down. I have had principals tell me that there is testing involved for older age groups in the school. The SET allocation needed for the younger cohort is not really known. With regard to POD, why can we not have live data going from schools to the Department to give a somewhat live feed of schools' needs at any point in time? We might start with how the Department comes to the allocations of SET hours before we address why we cannot have live information through the POD system. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Angela Corcoran","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Angela Corcoran  The Department has done a lot of work on the SET allocation model over recent years to make it as robust as possible and with a view to ensuring that there are adequate SET hours available to schools. I will hand over to my colleague, Mr. Rogers, who will talk to the Deputy about the SET allocation model. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Kieran Rogers","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Kieran Rogers  There are three primary inputs into the SET allocation model. The first is the enrolments. In line with national and international figures, 25% of the available hours are allocated to the enrolments side. That is based on the premise that it is envisaged that approximately 25% of the student cohort will have some learning need. The second part of the model is based on the educational literacy and numeracy profiles. We use the results of the standardised testing over a three-year period. It is not based on an individual year. This testing is done at second, fourth and sixth class level. It is not only the three years, but those three cohorts, in terms of the literacy and numeracy tests. On the final input, we recognise that not all children from disadvantaged areas attend DEIS schools. The model applies a percentage of the allocation to those children based on the HP deprivation index. That creates the profile. A profile is created for every school across the country.  The Deputy mentioned an issue that had been raised with the committee. At the moment, we are visiting schools to look at the data that is maintained in the schools to see what data we could use as an additional input into the model in the future. We are also looking at how we might be able to capture that data on a consistent and accurate basis across all 4,000 schools. That is being worked on. We are looking at it at the moment in the context of a roadmap for where we want to go with the SET model. However, we need to be very careful that it is done consistently and accurately as we take in those feeds. If we take data in that is not consistent or accurate, it could have a negative impact on school A to the benefit of school B. We are working on that at the moment. The other side of the allocation that is important is the SET review side. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. John Kearney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. John Kearney  I will come in on that because it captures the very essence of real-time data and the changing circumstances.  Mr. Rogers has taken us through the SET model, which is in its third year of delivery. In parallel with that is the SET review every year, which is open to schools if they feel the model is not completely comprehending their particular needs. It accounts for the changes that can occur that Mr. Rogers has alluded to: rapidly developing schools, schools that have unusual circumstances, a level of pronounced trauma at local school level, or a significant cohort coming into second class who are not completely comprehended within the diagnostic tests. That is available to schools. The schools that have come to us feel that the SET review is a very timely, strategic process. There is a quick turnaround. The schools that receive an increase in teacher allocation receive an allocation that aligns completely with their teaching recruitment at the early stages. There is provision for balancing the consistency of the model. The SET review application comprehends real-life data and circumstances in school life. It is done in a very quick turnaround time to facilitate schools functioning as they do and as they have to. There is a balancing act that has been struck. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ryan O'Meara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ryan-O'Meara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ryan-O'Meara.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ryan O'Meara  The standardised testing is one point. That is probably the only area in the whole model where we have some idea of the individual school. Otherwise we are looking at the 25% allocation plus the general indices. Standardised testing starts in second class, as Mr. Kearney said. Essentially, we do not have any data at all on children in junior infants, senior infants and first class unless we are going into a review. The points made by the representative bodies here are very valid. The Department needs to allow the live information to come. I am not saying it has to be looked at every day, but certainly a school has to be able to feed in what the needs of each individual class are. I think we can trust the principals to give accurate data, but it seems from Mr. Kearney\u2019s answer that there is some work ongoing to look at how we are going to get that information from schools. From what we have done here, that message is very important to take away. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Roche","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Roche.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Peter-Roche.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Peter Roche  Like Deputy O'Meara, I apologise for my absence earlier in the meeting. I was in the D\u00e1il for parliamentary questions on education. Not for the first time, we are having a considerable debate on the area of special education and the need for it. There are two fundamental issues. First, we really need to applaud the special needs teaching staff. They do phenomenal work and there is very significant benefit for the student and his or he family. We can never underestimate that. Second, it is fair to acknowledge that the demand for this service is growing year on year because we have an increasing population. Those special needs can be so diverse. There is a lot that has been discussed over the past couple of months since we have been involved in this. Early intervention is critical for any child.  One of the greatest insults - maybe there is a better way to describe it - was the short window for the portal for the summer programme. I was dealing directly with a school where the teaching staff were so passionate about wanting to get this for another year. Ultimately, the window of opportunity was opened again and the school succeeded. As I have said before, I felt it was essential to understand fully what really goes on within the classroom where these students are participating. I took it upon myself to spend an hour and a half in one such classroom. I came away from that experience wanting everyone in the world to see it to understand exactly what is happening. It was fundamentally brilliant. There were ten students in that setting and two members of SEN teaching staff. On the day I randomly visited, they were doing they were doing a CPR and first aid lesson. Outside of that room, each child had a parent or both parents in some instances who had a break as a consequence of the child getting that opportunity to learn more. There were two really great things happening. Parents were getting a much-needed break \u2013 I saw the challenges of the students - and the children were getting the benefit. The teaching staff were so passionate about what they were doing.  One of the things that came up in conversation was that not enough specialist training is available for SNA teachers. In the normal scheme of things, when a teacher is going through a teaching course, it is rarely required to complete the SNA element. That is a failing. I realised that day, as I have many times in the past, the extraordinary challenges there are for all teaching staff, not just SNAs, for example with managing hot school meals and everything that goes with that. There are also school capacity issues. I do not really have a question about this but I am very passionate about it, particularly because I understand the real benefit for children who can avail of the summer programme. I really feel that, by and large, the teaching staff who are involved in SNA teaching do an absolutely compelling job. Any tampering with their job security and continuity of employment is an absolutely critical matter. I ask the witnesses\u2019 views on the impact of the summer programme on schools, on teaching staff and, most importantly, on the students who benefit. I am sorry to cut them so tight for time. I went on a bit much. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Brendan Doody","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Brendan Doody  Each year for the past number of years, we have asked the inspectorate to monitor the provision available in schools during the summer programme. Its reports are published every year and are well worth a read. Somewhat unusually for the inspectorate, perhaps, they are universally positive and strongly endorse the work of schools. The Deputy's experience of visiting a school that is providing the summer programme is shared across the board. It is a hugely important element of provision from the Department.  The issue of respite for parents, which I think is what the Deputy is referring to, was probably brought into sharpest relief during Covid, when special schools closed and we got a really deep understanding of it. Ultimately, the purpose of a school is for students to learn. However, the secondary benefit of special schools in particular is that parents are enabled to have a period when their children are cared for, looked after and taught, which is really important. As Ms Corcoran referenced, the summer programme is evolving each year. Every single year it is evolving. The inspectorate looks at it each year and we take the learning from that and try to apply it to the following year to make sure it is as good as it can be. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank the witnesses. We are going to go to a second round of questions. It is three minutes per Member, beginning with Deputy O\u2019Meara. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ryan O'Meara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ryan-O'Meara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ryan-O'Meara.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ryan O'Meara  I know Senator Curley touched on CPD in some detail in previous meetings. I will refer to the training of our special education teachers in particular. I ask the officials to outline where the Department is with work on that and how it is going to make it as accessible as possible to teachers in the system.  I understand that those going through teacher training now will have the mandatory experience. For those who have not done it, what is available to them time and cost wise? How do we make it as accessible as possible, considering the number of positions we are filling and trying to fill at all times? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Brendan Doody","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Brendan Doody  I will start and other colleagues can come in. In recognising the importance of having experts in our system, we fund 388 postgraduate places annually. These are places on level 9 postgraduate programmes that are available to teachers working. Obviously, the stipulation is that they have to be working in special education settings, either in special schools or special classes. Those places are taken up every single year. We increased the number of places from 338 to 388 in the last budget, a small increase admittedly. We want to increase that again. The more specialist training we have available, the better. I will pass to Ms Walsh to talk about the much wider range of training available to teachers. It is not all about the specialist teachers. We want to enhance the capacity of all teachers to be better in their classrooms. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Helen Walsh","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Helen Walsh  There is quite an extensive range of training opportunities for SET teachers and class and subject teachers within the whole school community. The NCSE's professional learning programme looks at trying to work with schools in a proactive, supportive and responsible way. We have pathways for professional growth. They offer a huge suite of supports. I will come to SETs specifically in a minute.  We have responded to over 2,700 requests from teachers, including SETs, to come to their school to support them. We offer inclusion caf\u00e9s, which are in-person. They provide a supportive environment to get into the nitty-gritty detail of what a specific teacher is experiencing. We have responded with 224 whole school staff sessions across the country. A total of 350 schools have responded to us for sustained support. That means we are with them all the way through for two years on the area of development they want to work through. We work with about 500 schools through the NCSE relate resource on regulation and behavioural management. We work with a further 460 schools around autism.  The Deputy is right that in order to provide a professional learning programme that hits whole school communities, it must be done in a variety of ways. We respond to that by way of coaching and in-class modelling. Our new learning management system, which we are launching in September, will offer a whole variety of learning opportunities for schools. Last year, we offered 431 seminars and webinars that reached some 28,000 teachers. We always have to improve and move forward. We are looking at what quality practice looks like into the first quarter of next year to support schools specifically in that practice space with NCSE connect. That will cover a whole range of supports, including leadership training, neurodiversity, NCSE relate, what transitions look like and inclusive pedagogy as it exists within a school context.  For SETs, we look at their areas of expertise on student support planning, creating student support files, implementing the SET guidelines and inclusive teaching. We also get into specific details, such as students with Down\u2019s syndrome or literary or numeracy issues. We support SETs in that regard. On foot of the SET review, which the Deputy referenced, we also assign advisers to schools that have gone through a SET review and may be disappointed with the result. They may need some practice development. We ensure they have that support. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Ellen Guerin","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Ellen Guerin  I wish to briefly mention the role of NEPS in supporting the training or, as we call it, our support and development model of service. We have a service that provides support and training for all school staff, which backs up what Ms Walsh said. It is for teachers and special needs assistants in areas such as well-being, mental health, special education inclusion and literacy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I apologise; I took my eye off the clock. I will give everyone four minutes in order to be fair to everyone. I call Deputy Darren O\u2019Rourke. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darren O'Rourke  Sinn F\u00e9in, through a D\u00e1il motion, proposed a special Oireachtas committee on the future of inclusive education. It would have been a Sl\u00e1intecare-type committee. The Government did not disagree with it, but I do not think it agreed with it either. It has come up with this special education forum, which is the national forum. The intent of both is the same. Does the NCSE welcome the opportunity of the forum? What important things need to come out of it? The committee has an opportunity to meet with the chair of the forum. I ask that question of the Department as well. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. John Kearney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. John Kearney  No more than the committee\u2019s work in recent times, particularly in recent weeks, when it has been considering all aspects of inclusive education and what it looks like, it is about ongoing dialogue and consultation. By its very nature, special education and by extension inclusive education keep changing and evolving. The inclusive forum is to be welcomed. Obviously, it is enshrining a shared national vision for what inclusive education looks like. A whole ambit of support structures are required to bring that vision to a practical reality for young children and families throughout the State. Underpinning all of that will be many of the issues we have discussed this morning and those the committee has been discussing in recent weeks, such as initial teacher training, access to professional development, enhancing the roles of individual teachers, SNAs within schooling communities and expanding leadership capacity within schools. Ultimately, there is the question of the wraparound supports needed at a variety of levels, with specific expertise in autism and behaviour as well as therapeutic inputs into the physical and mental well-being of students. All of those attributes will be featuring naturally in that discussion, with as many parties as possible contributing. What inclusive education looks like is an area that unites, challenges and at times divides. However, there is a collective mission and vision to be created that builds and is united by everyone contributing. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darren O'Rourke  Will Mr. Doody comment on whether there should be an opportunity for the general public to submit to this forum, parents in particular? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Brendan Doody","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Brendan Doody  The Minister has announced that the forum will run for a six-month period. As the Deputy will know, Professor Noel Purdy has been appointed as chair. There will be an opportunity for us to engage with the chair in September in this regard. It is important to note that there has been an enormous amount of consultation heretofore relating to the EPSEN Act, the roadmap for inclusion and the work of the disability committee. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darren O'Rourke  Is that European document, which Mr. Doody previously mentioned, published? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Brendan Doody","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Brendan Doody  Yes, it is published. All of these reports are coalescing around the same things, which Mr. Kearney articulated very well. First, what is the shared vision for inclusion? What are the structures that will be required in order to achieve that, such as teacher professional learning, leadership, the wraparound services, multidisciplinary team supports and, importantly, transitions? Realistically, the consultation is complete. There was a massive level of consultation involved with the EPSEN Act. The roadmap for inclusion also had a huge level of consultation. We know what everyone is saying. The question now is how we progress it. How do we make this a reality in our system? Some of it will take quite a long time, while other things can be progressed far more quickly. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darren O'Rourke  Will the forum report in six months\u2019 time? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Brendan Doody","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Brendan Doody  Yes. The Minister has said she wants this done within six months. It will meet over a period of six months and a report will follow quickly after that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I am up next. I want to go back to the parents notify portal that others have raised. It is welcome that it is open. However, I note that last year the closing date for people to submit was 1 October, whereas it is now 1 September. Many parents will engage with the portal and that is fine, but what I have seen in my years of teaching is that while some parents are geared around these things, others are not. Others rely heavily on the school to guide them in this regard. Schoolteachers are largely unavailable at this time. While we can say that some may be in and out of the school, many will not. The principals are on holiday leave and it is a big ask to think that all of this can function perfectly between now and 1 September. It is not realistic at all.  I hear that there is a desire to pull this back earlier each year. Anything administrative or orientative in a school should be wrapped up by mid-June in order to allow schools to conclude standardised testing, send out report cards and close the door for the summer. This should not be on the backs of principals, SETs and co-ordinators over the summer. Will the witnesses comment on this?  What has been the engagement on the portal so far? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Angela Corcoran","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Angela Corcoran  The NCSE will outline the level of engagement, which has been very high. It is worth saying that, as we have mentioned before, the parents notify system is an important tool. In the first instance, parents should be contacting the SENO. That should be their first point of call. Even where the schools open, the SENO should be the first port of call.  In the first instance, the information that parents are required to provide on the parents notify system is very basic. It is the name, date of birth, address and that type of information. It is very basic in the first instance. The requirement for reports, etc., is at a later date. I will say that while they are closed we are grateful that many schools have contacted parents to remind them of the closing date of 1 September. I emphasise that parents need to engage with the SENO. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  If I may interject, I agree with all of that. I would make the point that there are different types of parenting in this country. Some parents will be straight on it the minute the portal opens. Other parents - and I do not know a better way to say this - need their hands held. They will not engage and do not know what to do. They may not be motivated to deal with the issue. They may not have IT literacy skills. They may be unaware of what their children need in September. They may be coasting or struggling through this. It does not fit the model of parenting. Some parents lean heavily on the schools for those day-to-day things and that support. The trusted teacher who guided them through the process is not available in the summer.  I have one last question to raise. I have raised it at the committee previously and it is still a considerable concern of mine because I do not think it has been adequately addressed. So much of providing for special needs, English as an additional language, ADL, and allocations, is built on enrolment in schools that is geared around Ukrainian children who came here during the war. If a peace deal is struck there, and we all hope it will be, the EU directive allowing them to be here will be rescinded in March 2027. In some schools, that will have a minor effect but in others, in Clare and other west of Ireland counties, half of the children enrolled will leave. That will cave in the whole system. Have the witnesses models for that scenario? Allocations could change instantly if half the school leaves. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Angela Corcoran","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Angela Corcoran  We are always looking forward and trying to anticipate what will happen. As the Deputy said, we all hope there is peace and that those children and their families are allowed to return to their homes. It is a matter we are looking at. We will provide the supports that are available. We will work with schools. There is a risk. We know that numbers in primary schools are reducing anyhow. We will work with schools to see what we can do. It is a matter of demographics. It is a challenge. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  The number of enrolments in Kilshanny National School in Clare doubled. The Ukrainian kids there have been fantastic, but everything is built around that enrolment number. There is a whole support model. If there were to be peace, the enrolment number would halve in the middle of the school year. I do not think that has been adequately modelled for.  I am conscious that others want to come in. I will conclude. There will be time for others to close out. Our deputy chairman is calling on me to conclude. He usually makes a speech after doing that. I call Senator Scahill. I did not know he was next. I will get my hammer out. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gareth Scahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Gareth Scahill  I am sorry that I had to run up to the Chamber for a few moments. Eileen mentioned collaboration with different organisations, the Department and the NCSE. I might have to cut my contribution short because I see there is a vote in the Seanad. Where Oide is supporting teachers, what is the engagement like between it, the Department and the NCSE in terms of the planning process and how recommendations are made? That is where I would like to go. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Lisa Kelly","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Lisa Kelly  Is the Senator addressing that to me or to Ms Guerin? I think he said \"Eileen\". "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gareth Scahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Gareth Scahill  I was addressing you. I am sorry. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Lisa Kelly","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Lisa Kelly  I am Lisa. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gareth Scahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Gareth Scahill  I apologise. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Lisa Kelly","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Lisa Kelly  That is no problem at all. We in Oide work closely with the NCSE, NEPS and wider stakeholders. All of our professional learning is prepared through a high-quality design process, which involves collaboration with the organisations I have mentioned, as well as other stakeholders. As part of that design and quality assurance process, every piece of professional learning is put through a design review phase, during which stakeholders and representatives of the NCSE, NEPS, the inspectorate and other stakeholders attend to ensure that professional learning is supporting and enhancing supports to schools rather than overlapping. We work particularly closely with the NCSE around the SET training I have talked about for the post-primary level. There are level 1 and level 2 learning programmes, as has been mentioned. The wider curriculum flexibility that exists is based on a learning outcomes-based curriculum at primary and post-primary levels. We work very closely to ensure that SET training is complementary to what they are receiving from the NCSE rather than overlapping. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gareth Scahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Gareth Scahill  To follow up on the reference to collaboration, the Department would have good visibility of enrolment numbers in individual schools at a much earlier stage of the year. I know in my own home county, we had a few school closures. Those schools will not be opening again in September. That was well flagged early in the year. I was working with a few schools around their allocation of SETs and SNAs. They were not happy with their allocation and yet the schools that were closing were given allocations. I am wondering about the collaboration between the Department and the NCSE in that regard. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Kieran Rogers","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Kieran Rogers  The allocations were prepared last February. At that point, final decisions about the closure of schools had not been made. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gareth Scahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Gareth Scahill  For 2026? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Kieran Rogers","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Kieran Rogers  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gareth Scahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Gareth Scahill  The Department would have had visibility of enrolments much earlier than that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Kieran Rogers","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Kieran Rogers  The allocations were prepared in February 2026 for the 2026-27 school year. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gareth Scahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Gareth Scahill  Right. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Kieran Rogers","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Kieran Rogers  The final decision on the closure of a school was not made at that point. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gareth Scahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Gareth Scahill  \"Final\" is the key word there, even though we all knew. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Kieran Rogers","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Kieran Rogers  A small allocation was made to those schools because it would guarantee within the model that every school would get a small allocation. There were five hours allocated to those schools. As soon as the closure happened, those hours went back into the model. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gareth Scahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Gareth Scahill  That was hard for some of the schools that were trying to appeal these allocations. Everybody knew that certain schools were closing. They were getting allocations while other schools were fighting for the few additional allocations. It comes back to clarity and communication. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Kieran Rogers","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Kieran Rogers  On the SET review side of things, over 80% of schools submitted reviews. They were undertaken by the NCSE. Where an additional need was identified, additional hours were allocated to those schools, ranging from 2.5 hours per week to 25 hours per week. Any school that has a concern about its allocation should submit a review. The NCSE will recommend a quantum of additional hours. In every case where there is a recommendation for an increase, that increase is granted straight away and is available before the start of the next school year. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh  We recently heard from a principal. Perhaps it was last week. She highlighted that schools already have a lot of detailed and relevant data to hand. She was quite convincing on this point. There are support plans, etc. The data could be used to allocate accurately and efficiently. She highlighted the need to use the data and to trust the principals that they know exactly what their school needs. There is a lot of information on the post-primary online database, P-POD. Has it been considered at all that there should be a way for the principals of the schools to share the data? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Kieran Rogers","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Kieran Rogers  I mentioned earlier that there is an exercise going on at the moment whereby we are undertaking visits to schools to look at the data that is available. For the further development of the model, the goal is to get greater input from schools through the feeding in of data. Work is going on in that space at the moment. The key thing is that we need to ensure there is consistent and accurate data coming in to feed into the model. That work is under way with schools. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. John Kearney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. John Kearney  The consistency piece that Mr. Rogers alludes to is important. It also picked up on the very significant work that the inspectorate had done in recent times in terms of the consistency and the quality benchmarks right across the system. As Mr. Rogers has alluded to, it is about finding out what information can be discerned from schools, but then there is the support provision to schools so there is consistency, fairness and credibility across the system in terms of resource provision. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh  Go raibh maith agat. Will the Department outline its position in relation to children with Down's syndrome seeking class places? I have had a couple of families contact me both last year and this year. They feel there is a lack of provision for these children. They do not feel it is appropriate for them to be in mainstream classes. There is a lot more talk now about the redesignation of the mild or general learning disability schools. Will the Department outline its position on that le do thoil? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Angela Corcoran","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Angela Corcoran  In terms of special class provision, we have announced 584 classes this year. It is a very robust and very strong commitment from the Department to meeting the needs of children through special classes. While many of them are for autism, that is because that is where the demand is. We generally find that there is adequate supply there of places for children with other conditions. It is not something that has been expressed as a huge difficulty with us. It is all about working with parents and children to secure an appropriate place for their child. That may sometimes be in mainstream with the right support. Special classes are available there. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Helen Walsh","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Helen Walsh  I thank the Deputy for the question. I understand their concerns because they are probably looking at what Ms Corcoran has just described, which is so many classes for children with autism. I was getting nervous though that with the mainstream they may not see it or they may be losing confidence within that context. We have to really consider what this means for them and why they are bringing those concerns forward.  With the data we gathered this year we are looking at how to capture a child who may have Down's syndrome and very often a cognitive challenging profile for them. We are trying to capture that as best we can this year. It is not that we do not open classes for children who have that profile; it is that we do not open classes specifically for children with Down's syndrome. We look more at the cognitive profile. Hopefully in our data this year we might see a rise in that number coming forward. Parents last year may not have been as aware of it as they will be this year. We have engaged with Down Syndrome Ireland on it as well, which is a valuable stakeholders to us, to understand the needs of those parents and of those children, to have a look at what provision might look like for them, and again to work with schools to support their children in as inclusive a manner as possible. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  That concludes members' questions. I am conscious that we are all against the clock but there may have been questions or remarks the witnesses did not get to close out. If it is okay we will go down along the row of seats if anyone wants to comment, or maybe they do not have comments to make. Witnesses may have a minute or so each if they just want to close out bits that needed a bit of closure. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Lisa Kelly","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Lisa Kelly  The special education teacher, SET, training was brought up by Senators and Deputies today. SET teachers are involved in Oide's professional learning days at both primary and post-primary level. While our provision is curricular based, which we talked about today, a large portion of that curricular-based professional learning is around supporting teachers to support all students in their classes. As our colleague, Ms Walsh, mentioned today, every teacher needs to be upskilled and have the tools to support all of those children, including those with special educational needs. While it is not specific, the specific training is at post-primary at the moment, Oide's wider professional learning is always cognisant of the needs of those teachers within the wider teacher population. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Does Ms Guerin wish to make any final remarks? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Ellen Guerin","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Ellen Guerin  The National Educational Psychological Service plans to continue to offer a comprehensive service delivery to all of the schools and to combine our model of casework with support and development work into the future for school communities. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Brendan Doody","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Brendan Doody  I have nothing to add beyond welcoming the opportunity to engage with the committee and colleagues on the disability committee on the forum. I think the forum will be a really important next step in this journey towards inclusive education. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Absolutely. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Angela Corcoran","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Angela Corcoran  A general point that I failed to mention is the national training programme for special needs assistants. It is really important that this gets a mention because 4,200 SNAs have completed that course over the past four to five years. This is a reflection of the commitment of SNAs to training, which I mentioned already. I thank the committee for its work and members' interest in special education. I am sure I speak for everybody here when I reiterate our commitment as a Department to progressing an inclusive education and to ensuring that every child feels supported in school and can attend and participate fully in schools. All of our work is undertaken with that objective in mind. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Kieran Rogers","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Kieran Rogers  I have nothing further to add other than to thank the committee for its time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank Mr. Rogers. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Helen Walsh","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Helen Walsh  I just want to acknowledge the depth of the questions that always come from members of this committee. I really value the depth of those and the care for all of their constituents that triggers those type of questions. I wish to emphasise the future of professional learning for our teachers, our SET teachers and for our SNAs moving into the future. The National Council for Special Education intends to meet those professionals where they are at. Our support of them within professional learning within our service delivery model is interdisciplinary. It will be wraparound for schools. I also acknowledge the work of special schools across the State over the past year. They cater for and support our most complex children in so many ways. I just want to acknowledge their work and thank the committee. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. John Kearney","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. John Kearney  I will pick up on the point the Cathaoirleach and many other committee members raised previously. I wish to reaffirm to everybody, and to parents in particular, that there are two aspects to the portal: the planning and the provision aspect itself. There were concerns this time last year in relation to the portal and timelines, but 7,860 parents came to us for 1 October and many more came after that. I concur with the Cathaoirleach's contribution in relation to the supportive role of schools in the assisting of that. There are wider communication aspects in trying to reach out to parents. We are leaving no stone unturned in that regard. We are very much co-ordinating with our Department of Education and Youth colleagues and liaising with the children's disability network teams right across the country. There is a social media campaign. We are working with the National Parents Council and the various advocacy groups, and a parental webinar is being held in relation to that. We also have enhanced the efficiency and effectiveness of the portal and it is now a very transparent process that take in the region of just five to seven minutes for parents to complete the portal entry. We are aware there are some issues in relation to parents, but again we will not leave any stone unturned in getting to them.  I concur with the comments of my colleagues here. The breadth and depth of the committee has to be commended, as well as the unique ability to look at the most challenging of systemic issues right down to the transfer of individual school operational data. I commend the level of rigour and attention to detail from the committee, under the Cathaoirleach's stewardship, in assisting the national discussion on inclusive education. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  On behalf the committee I thank all of our witnesses. The NCSE's Oireachtas email service has been excellent of late. A few members have mentioned that. We have parliamentary questions but the Department emails have improved a lot and that is appreciated.  I thank all of the witnesses from the Department and from the different agencies represented here for what they do for education and, most importantly, what they do for inclusive education. From talking with the witnesses individually - and sometimes we google who they are - I know they have a lifelong interest in this. They do not just come in here as a clocking-in exercise. They are playing a fully invested role in each of the bodies they represent. We appreciate that they come here to drive on the agenda of special education. On behalf of students and parents, we thank all of them for that. I thank them again for being here today and for their testimony. I thank members too, as this is our final meeting of the summer. We will not be back until September, unless something profound happens in the country, but you never know.  I particularly thank the unsung heroes. We always hear the members' voices but we have Tara, Tetiana and Patricia, who do a colossal amount of work. They are the first point of engagement for all of us. The amount of work that goes into co-ordinating some of this stuff is colossal given the paperwork and the notes they prepare for us and it is massively appreciated by all members. On behalf of the committee I just want to sincerely thank them, as well as the technical team in the room who make all these meetings possible.  The committee stands adjourned until Wednesday, 16 September 2026. We will meet at 12.30 p.m. in private session and then proceed to public session. I thank the members of the committee for their commitment and collegial approach throughout the year. I hope they all have a lovely and safe summer. Please God, we will see one another in the autumn. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The joint committee adjourned at 11.50 a.m. until 12.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 16 September 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Allocation, Roles, and Training Needs of Special Education Teachers and Special Needs Assistants: Discussion (Resumed)"}]}}]},"contextDate":"2026-07-16"},{"debateRecord":{"house":{"showAs":"Joint Committee on Social Protection, Rural and Community Development","committeeCode":"joint_committee_on_social_protection_rural_and_community_development","houseCode":"dail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/committee\/dail\/34\/joint_committee_on_social_protection_rural_and_community_development","chamberType":"committee","houseNo":"34"},"chamber":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/def\/committee","showAs":"Joint Committee on Social Protection, Rural and Community Development"},"lastUpdated":"2026-07-24T02:14:35+00:00","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/joint_committee_on_social_protection_rural_and_community_development\/2026-07-15\/debate\/main","formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/joint_committee_on_social_protection_rural_and_community_development\/2026-07-15\/debate\/mul@\/main.xml"},"pdf":null},"date":"2026-07-15","counts":{"contributorCount":5,"divisionCount":0,"debateSectionCount":1,"questionCount":0,"billCount":0},"debateType":"debate","debateSections":[{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/joint_committee_on_social_protection_rural_and_community_development\/2026-07-15\/debate\/dbsect_2","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Pre-Budget Submissions: Discussion (Resumed)","counts":{"speechCount":114,"speakerCount":6},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Paul O'Shea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Briain Smyth","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sarah O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pat the Cope Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pat-the-Cope-Gallagher.D.1981-06-30","memberCode":"Pat-the-Cope-Gallagher.D.1981-06-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor D McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Paul O'Shea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I will read a note on privilege and housekeeping matters before we begin. Witnesses and members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that would be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction I may make. Members attending remotely are reminded of the constitutional requirement that, to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. This is due to the constitutional requirement that, to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the place where the Parliament has chosen to sit. In this regard, I ask any members participating via Microsoft Teams to confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House complex if they wish to contribute to the meeting. I remind all those in attendance to make sure their mobile phones are switched off or on silent mode.  Today's meeting concerns renewed discussion and review of pre-budget submissions. At the outset, I thank the witnesses for making submissions and attending today's meeting to discuss the details of those submissions. As a committee, we look forward to engaging on the submissions, which address key issues including poverty and the cost of disability. With that in mind, I welcome to today's meeting, from County Tipperary Chamber, Ms. Michelle Aylward, chief executive, and Mr. Ian Talbot, CEO of Chambers Ireland. From Irish Rural Link, I welcome Mr. Briain Smyth, CEO, Ms Louise Lennon, policy and communications officer, and Mr. James Claffey, deputy CEO and manager of CAP Network Ireland. I also welcome the cathaoirleach of Kilcormac Development Association, Mr. John Leahy. From the Wheel, I welcome Mr. D\u00f3nall Geoghegan, director of policy and advocacy, and Mr. Guillaume Jacquinot, policy and campaigns manager.  I invite Ms Michelle Aylward from County Tipperary Chamber to make her opening remarks. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Michelle Aylward","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Michelle Aylward  I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for inviting County Tipperary Chamber to present its budget submission for 2027. Investing in Tipperary is to invest in rural counties. Such investment is not a mere favour; it is investment in the Irish economy. Tipperary proves that rural counties can perform just as well as our cities.  I will take the committee through some of the numbers to date. Tipperary has 182,900 people living there, 76,031 of whom have jobs within the county. On average, people in Tipperary earn \u20ac30,654 per year. That places us fifth among the Twenty-six Counties. Last year, people in Tipperary spent \u20ac1.4 billion on cards, and the county paid \u20ac747 million in tax in 2024. Companies backed by the State agencies employ 12,487 people. Businesses in Tipperary sell \u20ac1.9 billion worth of goods abroad. We spend \u20ac121 million on research, most of which is in the areas of medical devices and food. These numbers prove Tipperary pulls its weight for Ireland. They show that when the Government invests in Ireland, it invests in Tipperary.  The population of Tipperary grew by 1.7% in the past year. We have all kinds of businesses based in the county, ranging from medical devices, food and chemicals to engineering and construction. Nearly half the jobs in our agency-backed companies are in medical devices and food. These are not just local jobs; they are part of Ireland's supply chain and support other jobs throughout the county too. This is why investing in places like Tipperary pays off more than once. It helps us to grow Irish-owned businesses, takes pressure off the cities and gives the whole country room to grow. Better roads, healthier towns and stronger small businesses would also help boost exports, tax revenue, jobs, spending and resilience right across the southern region of the country.  County Tipperary Chamber has four asks for the budget. The first is delivery. We want to hold the Government to account on the 30 time-bound actions in the accelerating infrastructure programme. We will track every deadline. Funding announcements are not good enough. We want to see projects delivered and built.  The second ask is better roads. The N24 and the N62 Thurles bypass projects need to move forward. The N24 connects Tipperary to Waterford and Limerick. This road carries our freight, exports and commuters. The Thurles bypass would link the M7 and M8 and take the heavy traffic out of our town centres. This would open our towns for redevelopment. Budget 2027 needs to set clear dates and fund the design work for both roads.  Our third ask relates to our towns. We are all aware of empty shops. They are a real problem. The vacancy rate of shops is 18.1% in Clonmel, 14.7% in Thurles and 14.4% in Nenagh. We need continued town centre first funding, easier access to the over-the-shop living grants and investment in our streets, transport and services.  The fourth ask is a lower cost of doing business. Energy, employer PRSI, insurance, rates and red tape are making it harder to hire and invest. We want real cost relief, faster insurance reform, flexibility on rates and practical training support. The National Training Fund has a surplus of almost \u20ac2 billion. It should be spent on training for our employees rather than capital projects. We want a voucher scheme, using that surplus, to help employers and staff gain the skills they need for the future, especially in the areas of digital, AI, green and construction skills.  Tipperary has shown that rural Ireland can deliver high incomes, strong exports, new ideas and real tax revenue. The right investment will let us do even more. A stronger Tipperary means stronger supply chains, a stronger region and a stronger Ireland. We are asking this committee to back all four of these priorities in budget 2027. I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for their time. I am happy to take any questions. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Paul O'Shea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank Ms Aylward. I incorrectly said at the start that we are discussing social protection measures and policy. That was last week's discussion, however. I apologise. I was thinking back. Today's discussion is on rural development and policy. I hope all the witnesses are not afraid to be answering social protection queries. I knew there was a look. I thank Ms Aylward. She gave a great rendition of Tipperary. We will be asking questions in a minute. Next is Mr. Smyth from Irish Rural Link. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Briain Smyth","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Briain Smyth  On behalf of Irish Rural Link, I thank the Chair and members of the committee for the opportunity to present our pre-budget submission. We welcome the committee's continued focus on ensuring that budget 2027 responds to the realities facing people on low incomes, particularly those living in rural Ireland. A copy of the full submission was shared with the committee in advance. Irish Rural Link represents 600 community groups in disadvantaged and marginalised areas. We work to highlight the challenges facing those communities and advocate for inclusive, sustainable rural development.  In the current context, while inflation has eased somewhat over the past year, the cost of living remains the defining challenge for many households. Rural communities continue to experience the impact of persistently high prices for essential goods and services, with transport, energy and access to basic services placing significant pressure on already stretched household budgets. The recent conflict in the Middle East has once again demonstrated just how vulnerable Ireland remains to external geopolitical events. Rising oil prices have fed through into higher diesel and petrol costs. Although there has been a slight easing in recent weeks, uncertainty remains. Low-income households in rural areas are particularly exposed because they have little choice but to rely on private transport. Unlike those in urban centres, many rural residents simply do not have any access to viable public transport alternatives.  This reinforces the urgent need to accelerate our transition away from fossil fuels and reduce dependence on private cars. However, this transition cannot happen through ambition alone. It requires sustained investment in accessible, affordable and reliable public transport. In particular, Local Link has demonstrated its ability to respond quickly to local transport needs. It should be adequately resourced to expand services, especially in communities where Bus \u00c9ireann routes have been withdrawn or commercialised. We continue to hear from our members about the devastating impact closures of local services are having on low-income households. In one small village in County Westmeath, both the local medical centre and village shop have closed. The village also hosts a self-catering IPAS accommodation centre, yet there is no regular public transport. Residents are forced to walk long distances or pay for private taxis, costs which consume a significant proportion of their already limited weekly allowance.  Similarly, in the village of Carracastle, County Mayo, the commercialisation of the Bus \u00c9ireann route resulted in the village being bypassed altogether. Older people and people with disabilities have effectively lost their public transport connection. Many now face expensive taxi fares simply to attend medical appointments, shop for groceries or connect with national bus and rail services. These are not isolated examples; they reflect a wider pattern of transport exclusion that is increasing poverty and social isolation in rural Ireland.  The latest minimum essential standard of living, MESL, research from the Vincentian Research Centre for 2026 highlights the scale of this challenge. It shows that low-income households in rural areas experience significantly deeper income inadequacy than their urban counterparts, even where both parents are working full time on the minimum wage. The primary drivers are unavoidable higher transport and household energy costs. This evidence confirms what communities have been telling us for years \u2013 where a person lives continues to determine both their cost of living and standard of living.  We ask in our pre-budget submission for a minimum increase of \u20ac15 per week in weekly core social welfare rates, in line with the MESL research. However, this also needs targeted increases to low-income households. As mentioned, increases in social welfare payments, and indeed in the minimum wage, do not provide an adequate income or adequate standard of living for rural households and that is why we are calling for the delivery of the largest investment ever made in rural transport by elevating TFI Local Link to a standing co-equal with Bus \u00c9ireann as a national public transport provider, with a national mandate and multi-annual current and capital funding to expand services and provide replacement services where commercial routes are withdrawn.  On the pressures on the community and voluntary sector, the impact of rising fuel prices extends beyond households. Community and voluntary organisations delivering essential services across rural and urban Ireland have also experienced significant increases in operating costs. Services such as meals on wheels, home care, community transport and volunteer-led supports have all seen fuel costs rise sharply, while many volunteers are finding it increasingly difficult to afford the journeys needed to keep these essential services running. Yet, unlike other sectors, including haulage and agriculture, the community and voluntary sector was not included in measures to offset these increased fuel costs. This was particularly disappointing given that the community and voluntary pillar is recognised as a social partner. No meaningful dialogue took place with our sector before these supports were introduced, despite the critical role community organisations play in supporting vulnerable people every day. This underlines the need to strengthen Ireland's social dialogue. We have proposed the establishment of a renewed and genuinely inclusive system of social dialogue where all pillars are represented equally. Effective policymaking cannot be achieved through discussions with employers and business alone while excluding those who represent the communities and individuals most affected by poverty, inequality and social exclusion. Those experiencing disadvantage must have a voice at the table when decisions are being made.  I will summarise our key budget asks. The first is that we rural-proof budget 2027, with a strong focus on regional equity. In line with the MESL results for 2026, we call for an increase in core social welfare payments of a minimum of \u20ac15 per week. This is to help progress restoring the real value of the core social protection rate and go towards improving income adequacy. The Government must begin to invest in social protection and put measures in place to address consistent poverty, deprivation and at-risk-of-poverty rates. It must benchmark rates against the MESL rather than the CPI for budgetary benchmarking; invest in public services and rural infrastructure, including transport, digital inclusion, and health and social care; and deliver the largest investment ever made in rural transport by elevating TFI Local Link to a standing co-equal with Bus \u00c9ireann as a national public transport provider, with a national mandate and multi-annual current and capital funding to expand services and provide replacement services where commercial routes are withdrawn.  The Government must expand and improve rural transport services, with demand-led models and sustainable vehicle options; secure cross-party support to reinstate the social dialogue structures dismantled after the 2008 financial crash, restore the community and voluntary sector as a full pillar and resource its participation; increase funding and deliver core, multi-annual funding to the community and voluntary sector to help alleviate operational costs and make the sector more sustainable; and introduce allowances for volunteers using personal vehicles that are essential for services like community car schemes, meals on wheels, etc. We call for the allocation of a \u20ac10 million capital and resilience package to the national meals on wheels network in budget 2027. This is in addition to increased core funding to upgrade kitchens, add renewable energy to meals on wheels premises and to energy-proof services against fuel disruptions, storms and energy price shocks, and roll out a nationwide standardised software dashboard across the meals on wheels network to support referrals, scheduling, routing, reporting and integration with the HSE. It should also provide additional administrative roles and resources across the network so that co-ordinators and volunteers can focus on delivering the service.  The Government must invest in community services and create paid employment in the local area. This not only supports community employment scheme and T\u00fas participants to gain employment using the skills they have developed but also ensures the future sustainability of these valuable services.  Budget 2027 provides an opportunity to recognise the additional costs faced by rural households, invest in rural services and public transport, strengthen community supports, and ensure that those who represent the most vulnerable are included in shaping the policies that affect their lives. We look forward to discussing our recommendations with the committee. We thank members for their time and consideration. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Paul O'Shea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Many thanks to Mr. Smyth for his presentation. I now invite Mr. Leahy to make his opening remarks on behalf of the Kilcormac Development Association. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. John Leahy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. John Leahy  I thank the Cathaoirleach and members. It is a great privilege and an honour to be here today to advocate respectfully for community groups and organisations nationally. I will start with our recommendations before developing them within the statement.  First, we are looking for a multi-annual community service sustainability fund. Second, we are looking for community services programme funding that reflects the real cost of employing people. Third, we call for the recognition of meals on wheels as being of essential national importance and for it to be funded accordingly. We also call for a community gain fund as part of a just transition.  I have been the chairman of the Kilcormac Development Association since 2011. Our community group was established over 40 years ago. It is slightly different from the average community group. We are very fortunate that we are funded by the community services programme so we have employees who are paid through Pobal. We also have a full-time community employment, CE, supervisor, who manages 28 CE participants. We are a busy social enterprise. I know that does not reflect every small rural village, but we do provide services in about 12 areas outside of our own remit. I will develop that as I go along.  When I look back over the last 40 years and where we started, the beginnings were very humble. A meeting room and a hall were all that were needed in a community. We have become service providers. We have nearly become an arm of the State in some respects. We produce 400 meals on a weekly basis, or 1,600 meals a month. What we produce in one month is the equivalent of feeding the average small town. We support older people to live independently. We manage community facilities. What I mean by that is that it is not just the bricks and mortar, but it has happened in our development association because we have staff. There is a big debate about whether volunteers are dying off. Volunteers are not necessarily dying off. If we look at what a volunteer had to do 40 years ago, it was just to come in once a month and manage a service. Now we are managing what I believe are State-led projects in terms of meals and wheels. There is also the development of the town and village renewal scheme, playgrounds and everything that goes with that. It is not that volunteers are dying off; rather, everything has become more complex and there is so much push-back on communities now. Do not get me wrong: communities are willing to take that on. We have employment opportunities in social enterprises, which I will delve into in a few minutes, and the CE scheme, which I mentioned has 28 participants. They do not just cover Kilcormac, they cover probably a 10 mile to 15 mile radius around Kilcormac. Anyone who knows a rural area will understand that 10 miles or 15 miles covers three or four different parishes. We also deliver climate action projects.  The point I am making is that, in fairness to the Government over the past 20 years, there has never been as much capital funding coming through. I see that. For my sins, I have been a local politician since 2009. I have been 17 years in the chamber. I have never witnessed the level of capital funding that is coming down. That is great. What we have done, however, is create a situation whereby we have chased all this money and put the capital projects in place, but the big sticking point is the operational costs. It is great to have all these projects, but we are chasing the money and now we are left in a situation whereby we are just running dry every year. I would nearly prefer to see the reverse, that is, if there was a scenario of not enough capital and more operational funding.  I use meals on wheels as a typical example. If the Government said it would give me \u20ac100,000 for a capital project for meals on wheels, I would gladly take it, but we would much prefer \u20ac100,000 over ten years so that we could operate the service to the current level. Members should bear that in mind. My first ask is for a multi-annual community service sustainability fund rather than a capital fund. I am not saying we do not want capital - members should not get me wrong - but we are getting to that point.  Deputy Aird knows Kilcormac and the hinterland and what I say when I mention the just transition. That is no disrespect to any other member; perhaps they are all fully briefed on it. Kilcormac is the epicentre of decarbonisation. We had the greatest number of people employed 3 km from Kilcormac. We embrace the just transition, but we are very fortunate that we had a full-time employee who was capable of drawing down the grants and could spend the time and make the effort. If it had been left to a voluntary board, which we are, we would never have experienced the level of funding we received.  Going back to the point I was making about social enterprise, we had to change the model of how we fund the organisation. We have created enterprise hubs. Within those, we get a small ground rent off a number of small businesses. They have now come in and embraced the facilities we have through the just transition funding and Government support. We get small pockets of money that help us to keep operating.  What we have also done through the just transition shows where the model is absolutely perfect. We received \u20ac300,000 from the European just transition fund. That \u20ac300,000 put solar panels on the roof in the community centre. Roughly \u20ac35,000 is what energy costs to run our meals on wheels and the centre. It opens at 7.30 a.m. and closes at 10.30 p.m. and we have two caretakers on shift. We are going to reduce our costs by \u20ac15,000 or \u20ac20,000. We are going to pocket that money, put it into a fund and help the organisation grow further projects.  The committee can see how we have utilised the fund, but we have very fortunate to have the staff to do that. I am advocating on behalf of groups that do not have staff to tap into this. Someone might say that there is \u20ac1 million in the EU just transition fund, but no voluntary group will take that on for the level of detail involved. It is right that there is that level of detail, as you need transparency on it. It is about having the operational staff for it.  When a project is added, be it a playground, town and village renewal or the town park, everything comes with governance, insurance and maintenance. It is not just a matter of taking on the project and saying it is great. In the political world, we have what I would call the \"chase the house\" syndrome. Here, we have \"chase the grant\" syndrome. At board level, we are now saying \"Stop\". We have to look at the bigger picture. We know we can get the funding, but how do we sustain it going forward? There is a whole model needed for that.  My colleagues here have articulated the view on meals on wheels very well. We need to recognise it as an arm of the Government in some respects. I do not need to tell members what meals on wheels does for people in terms of their health and rural isolation. To use a typical example, we are very fortunate to secure money from the Government. We bought a car. We thought this was great. We made a big deal about it in the newspapers and the whole lot. Now, we are looking at it and crying into our hands asking ourselves how we are going to run it, maintain it and put a driver into it. When you create the animal, you have to have the operational funding to back it up.  When I look at the other asks and the community services programme, CSP, we are very privileged to have funding from Pobal to maintain economic and social growth in our area. Thankfully and rightfully, the minimum wage has increased over the last number of years, but we are still getting the CSP money at the same rate we have always got it. As a voluntary organisation, we have to make up the additional contribution to pay the staff. If we have five staff and have to cut services, our priority naturally enough is the staff. That is to be straight about it. We have staff, we are loyal to them, they are in the area, and everything else that goes with it. We need a situation whereby that gap is bridged and more money is made available. We are not looking to make a profit. We are just looking to sustain services without having to dig deep into our pockets. We can do fundraisers, but that is not sustainable going forward. In our organisation, it is nearly at a point where we just need to sustain what we have. We are at a brilliant level. Every community that has reacted over the last ten years has brought a level of improvement to its area, but it is a question of sustaining that now. That is an important factor for us.  This is not a begging bowl situation. Huge support has been given by this and previous Governments. We just need to be strategic partners in this. We need to look at the operational side of it and ask how we can sustain groups like this. I am not being parochial here when I mention Kilcormac. I could mention another six or seven communities that we are servicing within this. We are servicing probably a third of the county of Offaly. If that is replicated across the country and you are able to support, say, 15, 20, 30 or 100 - whatever the number is - you are actually going to cover nearly 50% of the country very quickly.  The last point I will make is on renewable energy. Deputy Aird would know the area I am from. We have gone from brown to green very quickly and we are very supportive of that in terms of wind energy. It may be for a different forum, but we should be utilising the community gain fund more for services like those I am talking about. Rather than there being a call for community gain funding, with \u20ac1,500 going here and \u20ac1,500 going there, everyone getting a set of jerseys and a scoreboard and everyone being happy, we need to look at it strategically in terms of how we pull the money back in and have a more infrastructural fund in the county. We can work the services I am talking about outwards from there. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Paul O'Shea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank Mr. Leahy. Last but not least, I call Mr. D\u00f3nall Geoghegan from The Wheel to make his opening remarks. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. D\u00f3nall Geoghegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. D\u00f3nall Geoghegan  I thank Cathaoirleach for the invitation to address the committee today. The Wheel is Ireland\u2019s national association of charities, community groups and social enterprises. We have a membership of over 2,700 organisations right around the country and in every parish in the land. They include some of Ireland\u2019s best-known national charities, international development organisations and small community groups. We are a representative voice for our members but we also provide practical supports to them, such as training and advice, to help them to be the best they can be.  The sector comprises over 35,000 organisations, employs over 280,000 staff and, critically, involves over 1.1 million volunteers. The committee members know, as public representatives who are active in their communities, that the sector is not an optional extra. It is essential public infrastructure. However, there is a real problem here. The sector can sometimes be taken for granted by the State and not funded or supported sufficiently to continue to meet the needs of many people. This is happening at a time when the demand for the services and supports provided by the sector is growing, not least because of the increases in the cost of living for the most vulnerable members of our society.  There are lots of key challenges mentioned in our budget submission, but I will outline just two right now that simply must be addressed in budget 2027. First, there is a gap that has been widening for many years between the funding that organisations receive and the real cost of providing the service. This gap results from a range of factors, such as rising energy costs, rising insurance premiums, high rent and general inflation. Funding has not kept pace with rising costs. Our colleagues in Irish Rural Link have addressed some of the issues that are pertinent to that.  I will illustrate this issue with a concrete example that arose just this year. Our sector welcomes the introduction of auto-enrolment for pensions to increase pension provision, and I know that this committee strongly backed its introduction. However, many community and voluntary organisations did not receive any additional funding to cover the cost of that scheme. They were left having to absorb this cost from their own funds, potentially leading to cuts in services. There is an extra cost this year of 1.5% for those staff and it is going to increase in the years to come. It is different for other sectors. It simply does not arise for statutory bodies that provide public services, as they have established pension provisions. For the private sector, businesses can either absorb the cost as part of their profit margins or they can increase the costs of their products or services. The community sector simply cannot do that. There is no profit margin and there is no passing on the cost to users. This is only one pressure point. In our recent survey on the issues faced by the sector, almost a quarter of respondents were unsure if they would have enough funding to provide their existing supports or services next year.  Second, the way funding is provided on an annual basis as opposed to multi-annually is a significant issue in the sector. Only a quarter of respondents to our survey received multi-annual statutory funding. This means that most organisations are unable to plan for the medium or long term and more than one third of our members report that they are unable to recruit and retain staff. We are just asking that the State follow the good practice already established and employed by some Departments. For example, the Department of Rural and Community Development and the Gaeltacht has been providing multi-annual funding through its scheme to support national organisations, the so-called SSNO scheme, for nearly 20 years. The Departments of foreign affairs, justice and the environment have also adopted this approach to many of their funding schemes. Multi-annual funding should become the norm rather than the exception. This would deal with some of the issues raised by our colleagues in the Kilcormac Development Association. Organisations would be able to plan ahead, knowing exactly what they are to get in the years to come.  It should also take into account the fact that many organisations are struggling with a significant compliance and reporting load that is not specifically funded by grants or contracts. Let us be straight on this: we advocated strongly for regulation and we agree with regulation. It is great that the Charities Regulator is in place and doing a fine job, but there is a cost of compliance and it must be dealt with.  There are a number of other issues that we highlighted in our budget submission, which the committee has, and we are happy to discuss these further with the members. We also included in the budget submission, which can be seen in the online version, links to our member organisations and what they have put forward. Some of the issues that I have not addressed have been put forward by our colleagues in Irish Rural Link and Kilcormac Development Association, and we are strongly behind them. These include the increases in social welfare rates proposed by Irish Rural Link and the emphasis on volunteering and innovation in the sector that has been outlined by Kilcormac Development Association.  As a country, we simply must invest heavily in our communities. We must invest in Ireland's social fabric. We cannot take it for granted. We are asking that the Government uses budget 2027 to put community solidly at the heart of our democracy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Paul O'Shea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank everyone for their contributions. Each member will get seven minutes for questions and answers. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy William Aird  I thank the witnesses for coming here today. We have heard all about the great work that has been done. It behoves us to ensure that after the meeting we are more enlightened to the fact of making recommendations on the witnesses' behalf to ensure that some, if not all, of their requests are met in the upcoming budget.  I am going start with the sequence in which the opening statements were delivered to us and ask questions related to County Tipperary to Ms Aylward and Mr. Talbot. I represent Laois. We all represent different counties, but Tipperary's asks are no different from most of what we have in our counties and the frustrations due to the timelines for delivery on different projects are the same everywhere. Ms Aylward outlined significant economic strengths in Tipperary. What evidence does County Tipperary Chamber have that the specific investments it is looking for would deliver a greater return compared to the demands for infrastructure funding for other parts of the country? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Michelle Aylward","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Michelle Aylward  When we invest in infrastructure that will then trickle down into building, development, properties and then more investments within the local economy. As I said, it will then take the strain off our cities. Tipperary has been calling hugely for the upgrade to the N24 because not only does it open up Tipperary, it also opens up the whole south-east region. That development would also reduce road deaths and would have a huge impact for us. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy William Aird  My second question is about an issue that affects every one of us throughout the country. Ms Aylward highlighted the need for major road projects, such as the N24 and the N62 bypass of Thurles. Given the scale of the infrastructure pressures nationally, how should the Government prioritise these projects and what measurable income benefits would they deliver? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Michelle Aylward","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Michelle Aylward  It is going to open up town regenerations for us to make sure that our town centres are not failing as they are at the moment. That in itself will be able to pay for it. We recently saw that Tipperary generated over \u20ac775 million in tax receipts and is therefore carrying itself. The business community in Tipperary feels that this money should be reinvested back into Tipperary. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy William Aird  The question that I asked was about the comparison between us in Laois - we have a population of 32,000 and growing - and, for example, the Portlaoise northern orbital route. How does Ms Aylward think the Government should prioritise projects? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Michelle Aylward","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Michelle Aylward  If we look at it in terms of what it has raised in tax receipts, Tipperary is covering its costs. We would like to see that money reimbursed back into Tipperary. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy William Aird  That is how Ms Aylward thinks it should be prioritised. County Tipperary Chamber is seeking lower business costs through measures such as rates relief, insurance reform and training supports. What commitments should businesses make in return to ensure that these supports translate into increased investment, job creation and regional development? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Michelle Aylward","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Michelle Aylward  If we look at the National Training Fund, County Tipperary Chamber runs its own Skillnet and it has been very successful. We train a number of different member companies, so it is not industry specific. We have a demand for skills such as customer service skills right up to AI training skills. That money is taken from the National Training Fund, which has slowed down over the past couple of years. Given there is a surplus of \u20ac2 million, that money should be spent on training and not on capital projects. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy William Aird  That is fair enough. I am going to ask Mr. Smyth a question about Irish Rural Link. It is calling for a \u20ac15 per week increase in social welfare payments. How much would that cost the Exchequer and how should it be funded? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Briain Smyth","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Briain Smyth  The figures are covered in the MESL document and we are happy to share that directly with the committee. I just do not have them to hand at the moment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy William Aird  That is fine. He can send them onto us. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Briain Smyth","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Briain Smyth  Certainly. Regarding the funding aspect, it is more important that it is focused on the lower income households and those most at risk from rural poverty. We are seeking a focused increase as opposed to an across-the-board increase. It is important to understand that there is a divide between rural and urban households in that sense. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy William Aird  I agree with Mr. Smyth. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Briain Smyth","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Briain Smyth  There are areas in the country where there are more deprived sections of society that we think deserve that increase. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy William Aird  Irish Rural Link proposes that TFI Local Link get a co-equal standing as a national transport provider. What evidence does it have that this would deliver better value for money than expanding existing Bus \u00c9ireann or Link Link services? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Briain Smyth","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Briain Smyth  We have seen a significant reduction in services in some areas of the country with Bus \u00c9ireann, in particular, removing services. It is important to understand that there has not been a significant increase in the expansion of the core services in the TFI Local Link network since it was introduced. Having spoken to a significant number of transport service managers in TFI throughout the country, there is a universal call that they want to have the ability to replace and enhance the Bus \u00c9ireann services that have been removed. Some of the commercial routes are under particular pressures. In the Carracastle area in County Mayo, which is on the N5, Bus \u00c9ireann removed the commercial route due to punctuality concerns. That went from a service where there were six buses a day down to one a week. We need to see areas like that significantly bolstered. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy William Aird  Irish Rural Link would like to see somebody taking up the slack there. Irish Rural Link argues that rural households face higher costs. How should the Government target supports to those most in need without providing additional payments to higher income households? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Briain Smyth","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Briain Smyth  That is a very good question that requires an across-the-board answer to try to understand the rural divide. There is no point in saying that there are higher income households in rural areas as well, but there is a clear delineation of the lower income rural households that have been identified by different services and Departments, including the Department of Social Protection. These are households that are at risk from poverty and are receiving existing payments. It is just about trying to enhance those payments to those most at risk. It is not an across-the-board increase. It is to try to look at things like fuel poverty, in particular, and the increased cost of transport for those in those diverse rural areas where there are not the same services that we receive in urban areas. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy William Aird  Irish Rural Link is seeking significant additional funding, and rightly so, for community organisations, such as Meals on Wheels and volunteer supports. What accountability measures should accompany these investments to ensure that taxpayers receive value for money? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Briain Smyth","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Briain Smyth  Funding for Meals on Wheels is something that we are certainly calling for because it is something we came across acutely over the last number of months, particularly with the fuel crisis that has been going on. Ensuring accountability is quite simple. These are payments that are already been made to help with energy costs. If we are able to upgrade things like kitchens and put solar panels on community kitchens, for instance, to enable them to change from gas cooking to induction hobs----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy William Aird  Did Irish Rural Link get those examples from Mr. Leahy? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Briain Smyth","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Briain Smyth  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy William Aird  Irish Rural Link has called for the benchmarking of social welfare rates against the minimum essential standard of living rather than inflation.  Would that commit future Governments to spending increases regardless of the State's financial position? Is that sustainable if there is an economic downturn? Are there reasons for that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Brian Smyth","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Brian Smyth  What we have generally seen in past economic downturns is that all bets are off the table to a degree. While there is a surplus available at the moment, we want to make sure the equity within that is shared equally and focused on the most at-risk households in the country. It is important to understand that while there is a more effective way of creating the household spending, we need to have the basket of goods targeted towards the lower households in that sense. In the MESL there is a basket of goods for that, which does reflect the way it is indexed against the CPI. There is not necessarily a full direct correlation there but there is a correlation between the MESL and the CPI that needs to be taken into account. At the moment, where there is availability to give that uplift and to give that increase, I think it should be focused on the rural households in particular. In the fullness of time when we may have downturns, it does behove any Government then to take a look at the full packages available to them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sarah O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Sarah O'Reilly  I welcome the witnesses. I have a different perspective as a first-time Senator listening to all these people coming in giving evidence. I am coming at it as a person who was an employer, who employed people, and who has seen a lot of small businesses on our streets. I come from a county where there is a lot of failure on our main streets. Lately I hear a lot up here about how brilliant social enterprises are. Yes they are, but I have a view that I want the witnesses to try to change my mind on. Pubs are closing their doors around Ireland. Shops are closing their doors around Ireland. We have main streets that are failing. A lot of money is going into the town centre first policy and all these schemes. I feel that the cro\u00ed c\u00f3naithe scheme for houses should be for main streets and for shops. A lot of the problem with our main streets is that our buildings are really old - they are over 100 years old - and people cannot afford to do them up to stay in them. I think we should focus on keeping our centres vibrant and alive by putting money in and allowing people to be able to develop and do up their shops and their buildings. I listened to Mr. Leahy talking about new hubs. That is all new money and government funding. While the main streets are closing, people are going into these new hubs. I would prefer to keep the people and the families on the main streets. I see that the biggest obstacles to that are rent and rates. We have social enterprises which do not pay rates and I think this is creating a conflict. I have a friend in the North who tells me that their streets are full of social enterprises competing against enterprises that are paying rates and rent and there is a conflict there.  Ms Aylward was 100% correct when she talked about the roads. The roads are a huge problem and we need more investment in our roads. In my area, the east-west link project has been forgotten about. Millions and millions of euro were spent in research, plans, pre-plans and drawings and it has gone nowhere. I want the witnesses to change my mind about social enterprises. I feel that we should be supporting those publicans, those shops and those family businesses to stay on the streets and keep their businesses open. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Ian Talbot","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Ian Talbot  I thank the Senator. We are not here in any way to comment on or do down social enterprises. They provide a very valuable thing. We also have business concerns about trying to keep businesses open and alive and our town centres vibrant. We are big supporters of things like the Think Small First policy, the SME tests being conducted by Departments to make sure that new regulations are capable of being dealt with, and the regulations associated by small businesses and so on. We are big supporters of cro\u00ed c\u00f3naithe. Yes it has been successful but there is a whole lot more we need to do about above-the-shop living and so on. We have lots of recommendations in the overall national Chambers Ireland submission.  Also key here is infrastructure, which comes up with Deputy Aird's questions as well about the importance of infrastructure generally. In some areas it will be roads, in other areas it will be rail, and in other areas it will be upgrading the energy grid. We have a population that has grown dramatically. In my lifetime it was as low as 2.9 million people and we are now up to 5.5 million people and growing. We have an island with 8 million people on it. Our infrastructure development has not kept pace and it is holding everything back. It is holding social enterprise back, it is holding rural communities back and it is holding public transport back. From our perspective it is really essential that we keep investing in infrastructure. If we do not, we are just going to go further and further behind. It is really key. I think we would all agree on the need for the State to look more at multiannual funding to help things happen rather than the annual cliff edge we face every year. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. John Leahy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. John Leahy  I thank Senator O'Reilly. We have to look at it in terms of urban versus rural. Urban centres will never be replaced by social enterprise because the footfall is there. When we talk about social enterprises, it is about how we keep the vibrancy in our small little rural area. That is the comparative I can show there. The Senator touched on the cro\u00ed c\u00f3naithe grant. I think it was the best invention that ever came into play. I have seen it in my own town where we had 13 buildings on the main street that were vacant. Six of them were commercial and the remainder would have been residential. We now have six of them back in play. Some of them drew down the grant and some did not, but the grant created the environment to have the conversation. We are seeing residential life coming back into it.  Do I see the model of commercial rates and various other payments to the local authorities being the downfall of business? I do not. I think commercial rates are very low. In many rural towns they would not be paying more than \u20ac1,000 a year. It is not this that is going to make or break a business as such. Consider my town, which replicates the situation in a lot of towns. There were seven pubs in Kilcormac at one stage and now there are four. Anybody thinking about setting up a pub now would say that the demographic has changed, society has changed and there is not the business for it. There were two retail shops primarily selling newspapers but they no longer exist. When I look at a business model for someone to come into the town of Kilcormac it is hard to see it because we do not have the footfall, and people would nearly do a bigger shop elsewhere rather than go down the town to support a little shop that maybe has the newspapers, the milk, the bread, the butter and that type of stuff. Society has changed and there is no convincing on that: it is just the reality of it, unfortunately.  I do not see that social hubs are taking away from town centres. A very typical example is one of our small working hubs, which is no bigger than maybe 20 sq. m. We got someone in there and we were able to give them a reduced commercial rate because it was a case of getting them in and supporting them. We were getting \u20ac50 a week off the little hub they were working off. They have now moved up to Main Street because they have expanded their business. There is no way they would have made the jump to Main Street initially because they would not have had the supports that we gave them. We built it around them, got people in, and helped them with the promotion side of it. This is where I see a social enterprise being important. It is about giving them a leg up to go onto bigger things. Every town and village is different.  There are social hubs we were involved in with the just transition in the initial stage that was given by the Government. We utilised that to put a caf\u00e9 down in the community centre. It is very simple. The N52 runs through our town. Nobody would stop and everyone was just getting through the town quickly. There was no parking. Now we have created a caf\u00e9 and five people will be employed. It is going to open at the end of this month. Social enterprise has a home in rural areas, not in urban areas. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Paul O'Shea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I ask Mr. Geoghegan to be brief as we are out of time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. D\u00f3nall Geoghegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. D\u00f3nall Geoghegan  The issues that are raised are real and they need to be looked at. Let us look at it in terms of community organisations and development organisations at a local level, as explained in terms of the Kilcormac Development Association. There are examples of that right around the country. My own experience is that seven years ago I visited Creeslough.  Deputy Gallagher would know it very well. It was dead on its feet. As a village, it was dying. The local development organisation was able to work with local businesses to encourage social enterprises. Good social enterprises work with and alongside businesses. There is no competition. If there are issues to be sorted out, that can be done. There is now a vibrant community development association in Creeslough that it is starting to turn things around in the village, particularly after the tragedy. Shops are opening. I was up there at a festival just a few weeks ago. You could see the life coming back onto the street. Working with businesses, vibrant community organisations can bring villages and towns to life. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pat the Cope Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pat-the-Cope-Gallagher.D.1981-06-30","memberCode":"Pat-the-Cope-Gallagher.D.1981-06-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pat the Cope Gallagher  I am sorry I was bit late coming in from the centre of the world, Donegal Airport. I apologise for that. As I always say, I think I am the only Member of the D\u00e1il or Seanad who flies in to sessions here. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy William Aird  You are lucky to have an airport. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pat the Cope Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pat-the-Cope-Gallagher.D.1981-06-30","memberCode":"Pat-the-Cope-Gallagher.D.1981-06-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pat the Cope Gallagher  We are but it did not fall from the sky. We had to work on that over many years with people like the late John Wilson, Ray MacSharry and others who had faith in what we wanted to do. It was the local community that did that. It was not the Government of the day that said it would offer it because Donegal is more than four hours from Dublin and has no rail service. We came up against obstacles. Again, it was the local community that was responsible for it. I had not intended to say that but, now that it has been said, the number of people who use the airport every day is amazing. You can leave Donegal at 8 a.m. and be in Dublin at 9 a.m. and in the city centre by 9.45 a.m. Together with that road in the sky, fibre broadband has ensured that we can have services and industry in the most rural parts of Ireland. I come from a rural part of Ireland, west Donegal. I am very familiar with Creeslough, which I have represented for nearly 45 years. Mr. Geoghegan is quite right to say it is the community there that has done this since the unfortunate tragedy we had in Creeslough some time ago.  What seems to come through from those presentations I had the opportunity to listen to is the witnesses all spoke about multi-annual funding. I grew up in business. Multi-annual funding is absolutely essential. You cannot survive otherwise. I am glad to hear reference being made to the Department of rural and community development and other Government Departments but this has to be across the board. It needs to be a cross-party decision and a decision by Government to ensure multi-annual funding.  The next point that comes across is that reasonable funds are provided for investment but this is not matched by additional funds for operational purposes. It is good to invest but if you do not have additional funding for operational purposes, it makes things much more difficult. Every capital grant should be matched by a given percentage of operational costs.  It is remarkable to hear that up to 1,600 meals a month are provided in Kilcormac. They are only provided because people need them. That is an indication of the level of poverty. Kilcormac is a long way from home. When I first saw it, I wondered about other parts of the country. I suddenly realised that Kilcormac is a microcosm of the rest of the country. The witnesses could be speaking for any part of rural Ireland.  I am aware of the Wheel. Some 35,000 organisations are affiliated to it. There is a need for that network. The witnesses have genuinely made very serious presentations. They take a bottom-up approach and they know what is needed in rural Ireland. They are doing what the Government would be doing if their organisations did not exist. I should not say it would be doing it but it would have to provide some level of service, although it would not be to the same degree as the organisations are providing. If their people were taken out of it tomorrow morning, all of the services being provided would collapse.  On roads, I have always said that the most important road is the road out of one's home to the county or local road. It is important that we continue to provide local improvement schemes to facilitate people in that way. As it stands, the local improvement schemes use tarmac. I am a critic of this. The roads are like runways. When I had responsibility for this area, from 2002 to 2004, we provided the basic tar and chips. People were happy with that. You could then do three or four times as many roads as are done now. Anyone who applies for the LIS now will be well gone by the time they are reached. Even some of the youngest people here will be well gone by the time those people on the list are got to. We have to improve that and improve the infrastructure that has been referred to.  I compliment the witnesses but it would be wrong of us to come here and compliment them if we do not do something about it. We would be wasting their time and ours. There must be follow-up with the various Departments so that we can reflect the witnesses' concerns. Those concerns are not the concerns of the eight people here today but those of the people that they and I represent. We would be much worse off if they were not there. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Briain Smyth","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Briain Smyth  I thank the Deputy and Senator O'Reilly very much. Irish Rural Link has a number of projects under way. On the social enterprise side, the rural innovation and social enterprise scheme is a PEACEPLUS cross-Border project that we are quite proud of. We are just after closing the first round in the last couple of weeks. We have had 86 participants on a cross-Border project to try to foster and encourage rural social enterprise. A sister project to that is the maximising community space scheme. We run this scheme to bring vibrancy back into local towns and villages. We work with people like John Leahy to see what is required to rebuild that vibrancy in towns and to encourage people back into the heart of the village. On the town centre first plans, the first round provides \u20ac100,000 and the next round provides \u20ac30,000. That needs complete funding. Complete planning is needed for it.  I will follow up on Deputy Gallagher's point on the multi-annual element. There is a significant element that we want to bring to the table - the CAP programme that is currently under negotiation. The two pillars, Pillar 1 and Pillar 2, are converging into a single point. There is a particular threat to rural community funding. Schemes like LEADER are under threat. We run CAP Network Ireland on behalf of the Irish Government. We are to the very fore. My colleague James Claffey runs it. I was talking to him before we came in. We see a threat there. We see a need for an all-party discussion about protecting, enhancing and adapting that funding after the 2027 discussions. It is important to highlight that this will have serious consequences for rural Ireland and for funding for good social enterprises and things like the LIS that the Deputy referred to. The CAP is one element that had the potential to provide multi-annual funding but that funding will no longer be available. We need a fresh discussion on how to replace all of that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. James Claffey","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. James Claffey  To add to what Mr. Smyth has said and to respond to Senator O'Reilly and Deputy Gallagher, we represent the National Meals on Wheels Network across the country and I firmly agree with the Senator. We should be encouraging people to live on the main streets of towns and villages across Ireland. We have loads of different ideas about how to support that. I also agree that social enterprise should never be in competition with private businesses. I will give the example of the meals and wheels network in Portlaoise in Deputy Aird's constituency. We have introduced a protocol for setting up a meals on wheels service there. One of the first steps was to look at private enterprises in the area to see if anyone was available to provide the service. We are fully in agreement with that. The Deputy will be aware that a couple of private enterprises tried to deliver meals on wheels within that community but were not able to do so.  That is where social enterprise and the community have filled that need. That is what the community is trying to do and will continue to do going forward, but I absolutely agree with the Deputy's sentiment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Guillaume Jacquinot","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Guillaume Jacquinot  To get back to what the committee can concretely do after this meeting, as the Deputy said, we have all talked about multi-annual funding. That is something we in the Wheel have been advocating for for a number of years. There is a momentum. It is mentioned in the programme for Government that there are internal discussions within Tusla and the HSE, two of the biggest funding organisations for community and voluntary sector organisations, about moving towards multi-annual funding. As members of this committee and members of the Committee on Budgetary Oversight know, this is a cross-departmental issue. Therefore, we need to have similar conversations in other committees and to write to the Department of public expenditure to advocate for the importance of moving towards multi-annual funding. In terms of operational costs, while Mr. Geoghegan talked about non-pay issues, which are also significant, if multi-annual funding is provided but the funding is not enough to pay for the service, we still have an issue. These are two issues that have to be taken together.  Following the WRC process, a data-gathering process was undertaken in a KOSI survey. We had a very high response rate of 70% from more than 1,000 organisations funded by the HSE, Tusla, the Department of housing and Cuan about the extent of non-pay issues, such as auto-enrolment and other things. The figures should be available at the beginning of August. Once we have those, there is something to be done, such as writing to the Department of public expenditure to ask it to implement the recommendations of this survey. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Michelle Aylward","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Michelle Aylward  I will come back to Deputy O\u2019Reilly. It is great to hear she has such a passion regarding town centres. For us, as a member organisation within County Tipperary, we are very strong advocates of town centres. It is important to know that town centres and the way people use them are changing and the Government must fall into line with that. We now need to be able to create experiences in our town centres to generate footfall for people to be able to go into the towns. The younger generation are no longer going into a shop to buy; they shop online and do different things like that. We need enhancements in the night-time economy to support our local publicans, arts festivals and things like that to get people back into the towns.  An initiative we introduced in County Tipperary is our Love Tipperary card. I know a number of our chambers have introduced it in terms of shopping local. It is a big thing and we are very proud of it. We introduced it with a 0% commission so that it does not affect the retailers, but the beauty of it is a person cannot shop online with it so we are encouraging footfall back into our local communities. We have also tapped in with all of our members and the business community so they are using it as a tax incentive in order that local people are spending money within communities. This is to make sure that income does not leave County Tipperary. We are very passionate about those small changes.  We are also very supportive of the over the shop grant recently introduced by the Government. However, I know from speaking with our members that there are a number of changes which may need to come into it. It is only open to sole traders and there are a number of opportunities out there for business people or companies to be able to invest. Housing is a huge issue and if they can invest in these over the shop initiatives it gives them an opportunity to create properties to keep people in our town centres. That has a big knock-on effect on staff retention. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Ian Talbot","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Ian Talbot  I have a very quick point in response to Deputy Gallagher. We are very bad in this country for not celebrating success. The Deputy mentioned Skyway Broadband. Where would we have been if Covid had happened in 2015? We do not give ourselves a pat on the back to say what a great job we did in delivering broadband and how successful it has been.  Going back to population growth, we need to look more at local authority capacity and expanding the responsibilities of local authorities versus the centralised model we still have, as we have a growing population. We need to get closer to people and to solving those local issues. As the Deputy described, it is the last mile or kilometre connecting people to their local communities. We look forward to the Jim Breslin report when it comes out. I am sure there will be more work to be done. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Paul O'Shea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I will let the witnesses know we did a good bit of work on the LEADER programme and rural development. We are launching a report on that tomorrow in the audiovisual room. It will be widely available afterwards so they will see the fruits of the labour of the committee for the past number of months.  I have a few queries and will come to Ms Aylward and Mr. Talbot first. Ms Aylward mentioned town centre first and those plans. Has any town in County Tipperary received funding for a town centre first plan? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Michelle Aylward","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Michelle Aylward  Yes, they have, but again----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Paul O'Shea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  How many? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Michelle Aylward","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Michelle Aylward  Just one. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Paul O'Shea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Which town is that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Michelle Aylward","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Michelle Aylward  Clonmel. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Paul O'Shea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  That is the largest one. Ms Aylward mentioned there are vacancies and the 18.1%. What is the view of Chambers Ireland on that? There is a lot of retail space. Do we need a lot more retail space than we did before? I do not think so, personally. Ms Aylward mentioned that a lot of people are moving online. I represent a lot of small towns in my own constituency. Should we not be brave enough to make a decision to turn them back to residential use or should we focus on retail centres? What is Ms Aylward\u2019s view on that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Michelle Aylward","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Michelle Aylward  It is to focus on retail centres in terms of creating experiences to go in there. When we look at how County Tipperary is performing in terms of the economy, and it is doing very well in terms of our outskirts, the concern is our town centres. There has to be a mix. If you go into any of the local towns, you cannot buy a newspaper or a carton of milk. That is a big issue. We need to get that blend where there is a mix of changing the way people look at our town centres and creating outdoor entertainment space. We saw it during Covid and it encouraged people to go back into our town centres. That has a knock-on effect in terms of buying a coffee, bringing the kids in, being happy to go back into town and getting a rural link to connect to the town. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Paul O'Shea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Does Chambers Ireland have a position in terms of retail space? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Ian Talbot","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Ian Talbot  It is hard to have a one-size-fits-all approach but we very much support the redevelopment of town centres and getting people back living in town centres whether it is above the shop, in new developments or converting spaces that used to be okay for retail. Typically retail now needs bigger footprints than it did traditionally, including in big cities. We can look at Stephen\u2019s Green Shopping Centre and the debates about the footprints being too small there. We have the same issue locally. For a retail outlet to be viable, it will probably need bigger footprints than a house that has been converted. We are all about getting people back living in town centres. Things will grow around that, whether these are restaurants, bars, caf\u00e9s or whatever, if we get people living in town centres. If they are all living 3 km outside of town, and the road connection does not bring them to the town centre and there is no public transport, the town is going to keep dying. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Paul O'Shea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  The cro\u00ed c\u00f3naithe grant was mentioned. That has been a huge success, particularly in rural areas but also in towns and villages. The above the shop grant will be a huge success but Ms Aylward is right, it needs some tweaks. Being available to sole traders or independent persons is fine, but it needs to be available to companies as well so we can get as many people back living in our town centres as possible.  On Irish Rural Link, one of the things that stands out and has been mentioned by a number of members is the capital and resilience package for the National Meals on Wheels Network. We have all been so reliant on Meals on Wheels since Covid times. The organisation came to the fore in particular in terms of what it does during storms. It is the first to get the service out to the person themselves. The Minister allocated \u20ac2 million extra this year for the scheme, but looking at a focused package for that would be very welcome. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Briain Smyth","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Briain Smyth  We have a document with the Minister on that. To expand on it, we have been very focused on the storm resiliency element. We have the paper we produced recently on preparedness for natural weather events. More importantly, we proposed to the Ministers in both the Department of Rural, Community Development and the Gaeltacht and the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment, that the Meals on Wheels service should be included in the national emergency response group as part of the first-line response. I am privileged to be on the Meals on Wheels national steering group and the people we work with are the first on the scene and often the only people who talk to people down the end of a long boreen. They combat the loneliness of rural areas.  The loneliness is one of the big things we are seeing. When talking about the resilience of the network, a capital grant gives us the ability to put in things like generators and be able to invite people in to charge mobile phones, bring a hot meal and provide that solace and the community that is required if the power is not available. In Storm \u00c9owyn we saw that - it was not available for two to three weeks in certain areas in deep, dark rural Ireland and it was quite hard. It is important that we are able to bring that renewable energy because it is also climate resilience as well, climate adaption, to enable these facilities to be islanded so that people can cook their own food and allow for power generation for communities to be able to charge a phone to communicate and let people know they are all right. That capital grant is one of the most important things. It is a win from every perspective. I would encourage the committee to take a long look at that in the package. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Paul O'Shea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Mr. Jacquinot, Mr. Geoghegan and Mr. Leahy mentioned it. It has come across very clearly this morning that multi-annual funding is really important for the community and voluntary sector. We have done it with other Departments. We did it for Tusla, as Mr. Jacquinot said, and the HSE. The community and voluntary sector relies on having consistency for staff retention, first, but also to ensure it can continue to provide services into the future. That is something the committee will look at in what it is asking of the Minister in the budget.  I am disappointed to hear about the issue relating to auto-enrolment. We did a lot of work on auto-enrolment. in this committee. We had the Department and the Minister in as well as many others who are involved in NAERSA, which supports that. There was a clear understanding and direction that those costs were to be covered and it is disappointing to hear the community and voluntary sector had to fund that themselves. It might be getting extra money for auto-enrolment. but then it has to make cost savings on the other side of things. It was very clear at this committee that auto-enrolment. was to be an initial cost, particularly on the community and voluntary sector, and it was supposed to be supported through the Department. That is something we will take away this morning. Now that auto-enrolment. is in and working - I think it has had a fairly successful uptake - the committee will revisit that and part of that will be to revisit covering the cost for the community and voluntary sector in particular. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Guillaume Jacquinot","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Guillaume Jacquinot  On auto-enrolment. we are leading a coalition of sections 10, 39, 40 and 56 organisations across the board. The vast majority of them did not get any funding for auto-enrolment. There are a few individual cases of negotiating, such as in service level agreements, to include them but it is more the exception than the norm.  A lot of HSE-funded organisations have asked that HSE funding would be available for auto-enrolment. They have not received a response. Tusla actually wrote to the Government to say that charities needed funding or they would have to either cut their services by 1.5% or refuse to implement something that is a legal requirement. They are stuck in that dilemma.  The KOSI survey includes questions on auto-enrolment. The survey at the beginning of August will give us more insight into auto-enrolment. funding across the board. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. D\u00f3nall Geoghegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. D\u00f3nall Geoghegan  My colleague was quite right earlier in saying multi-annual funding must also take account of the increased cost of providing the services. We know that differs hugely between the State bodies and Departments whether they actually include things like auto-enrolment. and others.  One final thing on the funding organisations, the State also has a role in encouraging giving - philanthropy. As part of that, the Government should, for this budget, look at how it incentivises giving to organisations like our member organisations and others. How do we do that? It has already been done for sports organisations. There are ways of doing that and various models. It would be useful to have some discussion in this committee and elsewhere about what that might look like. There is a real opportunity in this budget to support people to make donations. Nearly half the funding that goes to community and voluntary organisations is through donations. The State accounts for the rest. We can encourage greater giving as well as, quite obviously, encouraging the State to provide multi-annual funding and to meet that gap. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Paul O'Shea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank Mr. Geoghegan. I am out of time and will go back to Deputy McGuinness. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor D McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Conor D. McGuinness  I thank the witnesses for this engagement. It is really useful. I have been taking notes. I apologise that I had to go to speak in the D\u00e1il earlier.  My first question is to Mr. Smyth and Irish Rural Link. It boils down to a lot of the challenges facing rural Ireland: housing and planning, which is something the committee might come back to at another meeting, but also connection. I see it as incorporating the issue of access to public services, as well as those of isolation and loneliness, but also transport. Transport is key to accessing those services, especially when they are becoming more concentrated in towns, and also building connection and tackling isolation. I will give an example. There is a group here from Grange in County Waterford. Councillor Kate O\u2019Mahony is accompanying them. Bus \u00c9ireann has removed a bus stop in a fairly substantially populated rural area because of a lack of roads investment. There has been a lack of investment in the N25, the road has not had safety upgrades and it has become unsafe. That has had knock-on impacts. This is a semi-State body, engaging with TII and Waterford City and County Council, that has had to pull a service off an intercity route. No substitute has been made there. Local Link has been approached and is looking at what it can do but we have been told there will be no new routes in Local Link this year and potentially next year. This community is left high and dry. People, including young people accessing training, apprenticeships, school or public services, and older people who are trying to maintain that connection with their society and community ,are all left high and dry or forced into cars and, if they do not have a car themselves, they are forced to go to neighbours. It is something that needs to be highlighted. It summed up the problem in terms of connection.  I totally agree that Local Link should be empowered on a national level to make its own decisions and not have to go to the NTA on every single occasion to look for permission to launch or tailor a route. Sometimes the flow goes the other way, where the NTA effectively says \u201cJump\u201d and the local group has to say, \u201cHow high would you like us to jump?\u201d which is a backwards way of working things. That demand is clearly visible on the ground and it is one that I would like to support. I imagine it would be fairly cost-neutral for the State. It is one the Ministers should look at and I will bring it to them following this meeting.  On isolation, we had a discussion here today about looking at rural pubs, for example, and other rural businesses. If the witnesses were designing a meeting of this committee to look at the issue of isolation, who should be around the table as witnesses? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Briain Smyth","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Briain Smyth  We had our AGM two weeks ago and at that meeting I highlighted the isolation element. It is a public health matter. When you are down at the end of a long boreen and you are not able to have the services you see everybody else in the country having, and you are not able to get a bus and there is no one down there to help you, it can be very isolating. This has to be a multi-agency task force to try to see what we can do. It is even things like meals on wheels, which I keep coming back to. Deputy Gallagher spoke about LIS and Mr. Leahy spoke about the availability of cars for meals on wheels. If you do not have the ability to get to the transport and get people out of the area, you have to make sure the services required to go to them are there, but they are not. They are missing. Irish Rural Link is often conflated with Local Link. One out of every two calls I get is about Local Link services and asking me to try to do something about that.  Often when speaking to the transport managers, I found they were afraid to change existing services that could be changed to adapt to local needs. If the NTA sees things that potentially have not been looked at in 20 years for people who might be in day care or other elements, they are afraid to change it because if they do so, they may lose the funding. I think the Deputy is right that we may not see any increase this year, and we might not even see any increase next year, from having discussions with them. We have been advocating for changes, for example, in Coole in County Westmeath, where there is an IPAS centre. There are people there who cannot afford to get out. They have lost the local shop and the local medical centre. The cost there now is being borne by having to pay for taxis to get 15 km to 20 km. That is not small money. It is an all-agency response to try to address that. On connectivity, it is all right talking about digital connectivity and taking Deputy Gallagher's point on the road in the sky. Nobody of the older cohort is sufficiently versed to go onto a Teams meeting with the person down the road. One of the things I wanted to highlight in respect of the GAAGo element was that there were a series of community centres in Kerry recently that brought in people from the local area, not necessarily for a drink but to sit in the community centre to watch the local match and to try to address that loneliness. There are things like the GAA social initiative and various other initiatives out there. It is transport, transport, transport. We talk about climate resilience and climate adaptation. Put a bus outside somebody's door and let them use it to go to the pubs. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor D McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Conor D. McGuinness  We see the advantage of that right across rural Ireland. I see it across County Waterford, where Local Link has made great strides over the last number of years and has really allowed people to travel around in their own county, go to other towns and villages, expand their social lives, access training and all the rest of it.  I have a question for Ms Aylward. I listened with interest when she was talking about transport, to stick with the theme. I totally agree that there is absolutely a need to see significant investment in the N24. It is important for Tipperary but also for Kilkenny and my own constituency of Waterford. It is really disappointing that it was not provided with funding in the last round for urgent upgrades. I would also include the N25 in that and the R671, which connects Dungarvan with Clonmel and is an important transport route for both Waterford and Tipperary. The N25 and the N24 are dangerous stretches of road. I think the N25 has the dubious honour of being the most dangerous stretch of national primary route, and the N24 is not far behind it. Both are critically important to the regional economy in the south east and to counties Tipperary and Waterford. In this forum, I reiterate the call for urgent safety upgrades and urgent capacity upgrades. If we are talking about rural Ireland and regional balance and equity, if we do not have the transport infrastructure to underscore that and to facilitate growth, diversification and primary producers and manufacturers getting their products to market, we are on a hiding to nothing, to put it bluntly. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Michelle Aylward","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Michelle Aylward  I agree with the Deputy that Tipperary is a connector and opening up the N24 creates huge opportunities not just for Tipperary but also surrounding counties. We will be calling very strongly for funding for the N24 and the other major roads. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Paul O'Shea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Deputy Aird has five minutes for a supplementary question. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy William Aird  I have questions for Mr. Leahy and Mr. Geoghegan. I thank Mr. Leahy for the great work he has done. There are many people like him across the country and I take the opportunity to acknowledge the great and very valuable work that is done. As he rightly outlined, it is not a competition with existing business. It is a place to try to improve the rural areas we live in, and the urban areas.  There was a lot of talk today about living over the shop. I saw all the changes as a public representative. The first change was the filling stations in the towns. They all became shops that provided everything except fresh meat. Then we saw the domino effect of that, but worse was to come when the multi-stores came in, such as the likes of Dunnes Stores and Tesco. They were moving outside the town perimeter. I blame planners for that. They took them out. We saw in Tullamore the distance out they were located. That was sucking people out, not bringing people back in. Now there has been a whole U-turn and we are trying to keep the people in. I would prefer if we did not use the phrase \"over-the-shop living\". I would prefer if we spoke about the living. I knew all the shops in my own towns and throughout the villages. The retail business was in the front room and they were living in the rest of it: the kitchen and maybe one or two bedrooms upstairs. The problem is all those businesses are gone. We are not going to get those type of businesses back. They were all self-contained. There was the butcher, who reared his family. There was the person selling the newspapers. There was always a couple of little toy shops. All those are gone; they cannot survive anymore. What we are trying to do is to make that a liveable house. If the person is gone, and there are a lot of them gone, take the house back into the ownership of Laois County Council, give them the value of the house and put somebody living there. To live in a town now is different from the town that I was reared in. There are parks, cycleways, leisure centres and everything. You can live in the middle of a town and have a very good upbringing in a town centre area, but there is too much talk about it. I would prefer to see delivery on it.  Meals on wheels is very important. It is getting out to the right people and I wish them well in Portlaoise. I want to say about rural Ireland, although the Deputy has gone now, that things have changed out there. We talked about local area schemes, LAS. I was all my life looking at doing local area schemes. I remember one thing and it is huge argument that I have. Everybody is paying a household charge, even in the most rural of rural areas, and what are they getting for it? They are getting nothing. Do not talk about lights inside in a town or leisure centres in a town to people cannot get a local area scheme for 15 years and waiting. There needs to be more joined-up thinking. We have moved on from that way of going on. They are just a few points we have to get to.  I want to ask Mr. Leahy quickly, because I want to talk to The Wheel as well, what evidence can he provide that increased core funding to community organisations delivers better outcomes and tax incentives? I will ask him my three questions. They are very simple but it is very difficult to ask a person who is delivering on the ground, like Mr. Leahy. That is all I can say. What accountability and performance measures would accompany multi-annual funding to ensure it is delivering results? Mr. Leahy proposes recognising meals on wheels as essential national infrastructure. What role should the State play in this and what role should remain with local communities and volunteers to preserve the community-led nature of the service? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. John Leahy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. John Leahy  I will be quick. I thank the Deputy and agree with his statement on how towns and villages have changed over time. On how we bring value, I believe the value is there already. The numbers stack up. My colleagues from Irish Rural Link have given an overall view of the country. I have just given a view of a small area. I think Deputy Gallagher mentioned the fact that I am just one of many organisations across the country. The value is there. I do not think we would be here unless we were at a point where we are at the top of the hill and we just need that support. The value is there in terms of health service. We see that the GPs and medical services around us are constantly referring people in to us. That is where the referrals come from. That is helping rural isolation.  On accountability, anywhere there is State funding there is massive accountability. That is taking up most of our staff time, and rightly so. If you get a euro from the State, you should be accountable and it should be measured. I think the mechanisms are there. Some people might say the accountability is over-regulated; I would say it is important we have it. The reason we have regulations is that someone made a mistake somewhere down the line, and it is important they are there. They were not just created out of nowhere. I think the accountability mechanism is already there. If future funding was to come, we would just follow that model.  In terms of meals on wheels being recognised as national infrastructure, what was the Deputy's question? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy William Aird  To be part of every community. No community is different as regards meals on wheels. It is the same uptake, depending on the population, and the demand is there for meals on wheels. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. John Leahy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. John Leahy  We have a great scenario here. We have created the perfect bubble in that we are very much community-driven volunteers who sit on boards and have created this meals on wheels within our services. We are very fortunate that we have staff that serve not just Kilcormac but seven or eight other communities outside our own parish. We have the model; it is to sustain and grow it.  That is where it needs to be. If that were then recognised in multi-annual funding, I think we could drive it on from there. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Paul O'Shea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  We need to----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy William Aird  I forgot to tell you, Chairman, that Sarah O'Reilly said that I could have her time while she is gone. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor D McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Conor D. McGuinness  She told me the same. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy William Aird  All right. We can share it two and a half minutes apiece.  The Wheel is seeking an increase in the multi-annual funding. What measurable improvements in the service or outcomes should taxpayers expect in return for that investment? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. D\u00f3nall Geoghegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. D\u00f3nall Geoghegan  As my colleague has said, every single organisation has to account for the funding it gets and provide an account of exactly what it has done with it. What are the services? If it is contracted by the State to provide particular services, it accounts for that. It issues a report every year, and the Deputy is absolutely correct that it is right that it does so and that the State requires that report of what it has done and how it has used its funding and to make sure that it can account for it, but----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy William Aird  Mr. Geoghegan said that the funding has not kept pace with rising costs. What evidence can the Wheel provide that existing funding is being used as efficiently as possible before additional funding is sought? This is the argument we are putting forward for the witnesses with the Minister. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. D\u00f3nall Geoghegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. D\u00f3nall Geoghegan  Look at the evidence of all the organisations that provide those kinds of services. Look at what they have said about it in their annual reports. Look at the Charities Regulator's reports that show that there is good, effective spending of public resources. That is something we stand over.  Just one other thing I want to pick up on is that if you are looking for what difference multi-annual funding would make, look at the evidence from organisations that get multi-annual funding. On page 13 of our budget submission, there is an account of a particular organisation that gets it and it outlines exactly how it helps it to be able to plan----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy William Aird  Yes, but the burden of compliance has also been highlighted. Could Mr. Geoghegan identify specific requirements that could be simplified without reducing transparency or accountability of public money, to cut through the red tape? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. D\u00f3nall Geoghegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. D\u00f3nall Geoghegan  Absolutely. There are probably two things we could do. One is to make it easier for smaller organisations to comply, keeping the same standards, not reducing standards whatsoever, but making it easier for them to comply.  The other thing is for the bigger organisations that get funding from various sources. Sometimes three, four, five or six different State bodies are funding them for different organisations, like Mr. Leahy has outlined. In those cases, we could make it simpler. We could have one computer system whereby they can input their reports and the same kinds of questions can be answered easily so we can rationalise the reporting systems and compliance systems to make it easier. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy William Aird  Yes, but Mr. Leahy said that 38% of organisations----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Paul O'Shea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  No, Deputy you are out of time now. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy William Aird  Sorry, can you let me----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Paul O'Shea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  No, Deputy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy William Aird  -----come back in? We will get a third round, will we not? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Paul O'Shea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  You can come back in again if you want to----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy William Aird  Great. That is all right. I will be back to Mr. Geoghegan. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Paul O'Shea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Absolutely.  On my own behalf, I have just two other questions, one for Mr. Leahy. Mr. Leahy mentioned the multi-annual community services sustainability fund. Could he go into more detail as to what that would look like in terms of what community and voluntary organisations would apply for it, whether they are the ones that are providing services or whether they are all community organisations or what? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. John Leahy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. John Leahy  I would see it as the ones providing services. If we open it up to the whole country, it probably gets very diluted. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Paul O'Shea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  How many organisations, roughly, is that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. John Leahy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. John Leahy  I do not know. My colleagues in front of me would probably be in a better position to see how many CSPs are out there nationally. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Paul O'Shea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  So it would be only ones that are CSPs. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. John Leahy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. John Leahy  Yes, because they are the ones taking the lead on the likes of the services we are talking about. We started as a voluntary organisation. I remember starting out with meals on wheels a number of years ago. We were putting out 12 meals a week. That was very sustainable for a voluntary organisation and we had voluntary drivers. We are putting out 400 now. No volunteer is going to sustain that. No voluntary group is going to say one morning, \"There is funding here, so we will start meals on wheels here.\" We are covering a third of the county and then there are other organisations within our county through, say, the likes of LEADER that are covering probably another third of the county. We are very much volunteer led. That support might drive this forward. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Paul O'Shea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  That is very clear. Have you a figure on the fund? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. John Leahy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. John Leahy  I do not for the very simple reason that I appreciate how the political system works and I appreciate that there are people coming in here for asks. I would say the minimum we need here is a sustainability model that actually works for the groups that are already in existence. I made this statement already. I think we are at the top of the hill at the moment. I do not know how long we can stay on the top of the hill as to how we are funded at this point in time. I know this is an awful thing to say, and some of my colleagues might criticise me for saying it, but at this point we would nearly see an operational fund over a capital fund going forward because we have received the capital and built the infrastructure, but now we are trying to sustain it. That is where we are. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Paul O'Shea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  To Mr. Geoghegan and Mr. Jacquinot and to follow on from that operational point, it has become pretty apparent to all members that the capital works are pretty good and there are a lot of schemes out there for communities and community and voluntary associations to apply for, but there is quite a challenge now in terms of operating that system. It is very easy to build it, but it is a matter of managing and minding it afterwards. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. D\u00f3nall Geoghegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. D\u00f3nall Geoghegan  It is like a computer system. You need the hardware and you need the software. Yes, we need to put money into village centres and town centres and all the hardware that makes the village look different and brings people in and all that, but we also need the software. Up the road from me, a community organisation of Tidy Towns meets every Saturday morning and cleans that street. It involves about 30 people doing that. Half of the people who take part in that are from the local IPAS centre. That creates in itself a model that is followed right around the country where there is much greater integration of people in that local area. It is a matter of us creating social inclusion and social cohesion by investing in that software, if you like, of encouraging community life on the streets and elsewhere, in community centres - you name it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Paul O'Shea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Mr. Claffey, do you wish to briefly comment? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. James Claffey","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. James Claffey  Just a couple of comments on the accountancy and the value for money Deputy Aird has acknowledged. Meals on wheels do much more than that. They also provide school meals. A lot of them are moving towards a model of community catering now. They are expanding their services, looking at different opportunities and adhering to quarterly reports through the HSE. I will give the committee a couple of basic statistics. We have mapped 310 providers on our website. A third of those have a waiting list, so there is a shortage in respect of those clients. We are very appreciative of the budget increase of \u20ac8.2 million that was put forward last year. That was 2.8 million meals delivered across the whole of Ireland, so a third of people are still waiting for more meals there as well. In addition, a third of providers do not receive HSE funding. It is done through voluntary work, fundraising, etc. Irish Rural Link, along with the network, has done a lot of research on this. A lot of providers are using pen and paper to do all their returns and things like that. We are trying to pilot software that will make it easier and reduce the burden on these organisations. Some of our colleagues have already mentioned that a lot of the time being enforced by managers is actually put into governance and compliance, and rightly so, but also those services should be alleviated a small bit to allow them to do the work on the ground.  It is very important that we record all this, but we are actually not recording all the social good these organisations are doing in terms of keeping people out of hospitals and taking them out of hospitals earlier. In addition, you can never account for finding someone who is unwell, finding them on the floor in their home or whatever the case may be. That can never be accurately recorded but it should be acknowledged at all stages "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Paul O'Shea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Deputy McGuinness has a supplementary question. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor D McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Conor D. McGuinness  Just to give a contrary view in terms of the capital versus operational or current, I definitely hear the feedback and I hear the rationales but I would caution against saying we are okay on the capital side because there are areas of the State where we are not quite there yet. I am thinking of Dungarvan, where we do not have a community centre or a family resource centre and where that community infrastructure is just not in place yet. I would also be cautious even for this committee to be airing a view that the capital side is fixed because if there is to be a decrease in, say, capital funding, over time it will be slow to ramp back up, and in ten or 15 years we might find that the areas that did not have it still do not have it and the areas that have the infrastructure have gone ten years without upgrade. I would just caution against that message being made here----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Paul O'Shea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Deputy McGuinness, just to be clear, no one said that. What we said is that the capital fund was there, and I am sure all the witnesses would say that----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor D McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Conor D. McGuinness  I am just making a point about how that point is communicated. I got the point, but lest anyone misinterpret that or use it as licence not to continue the capital funding, a level of nuance needs to be applied for anybody listening in who might take the wrong meaning out of that.  That said, I totally appreciate the point that there needs to be a massive uptick in the operational costs. If we look at LEADER or SICAP and the element that could be used for animation and administration, it always involves putting the companies under pressure and is limiting how they can apply the capital side.  Community and voluntary organisations are being asked to do more and more with fewer or the same level of resources. On the other side, and perhaps this is why they are taken advantage of by the State in some respects, they are the go-to people to fill gaps when it comes to the provision of services by the State. We see that with meals on wheels. Something I am really concerned about is the lack of available childcare in towns and villages in rural areas. Where it exists, community childcare really works. These facilities are under pressure as are private providers of childcare. I am sure that this is a matter that the social protection side of this committee will examine as well but we see an upturn in unemployment in a cohort of younger women from their mid-20s up to about 40. It is still quite low but we see that uptick and the trend going in the wrong direction. It might be a guess, but we can extrapolate that part of that is down to the crisis relating to the availability of childcare. What role can social enterprises and community childcare providers play? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. D\u00f3nall Geoghegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. D\u00f3nall Geoghegan  In the previous life, I worked for Early Childhood Ireland. I know there are massive challenges in childcare. The Deputy is right. There is under-provision in particular areas and people cannot get childcare in order to be able to go to work. Community childcare provision is essential as part of the infrastructure of childcare. There are organisations in the sector that find it very difficult to recruit and retain staff, which is part of the problem. This is another example of the State providing supports for a community organisation that is providing essential supports and services within the community as I am with the Deputy on that. There is a long way to go regarding childcare. The Deputy commented on the wider childcare agenda, but community childcare providers are struggling right now. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Briain Smyth","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Briain Smyth  There is a point to be made about rural homelessness, particularly for the cohort identified by the Deputy, namely women in their early 20s with children who are living at home in rural areas. There is a lack of childcare in those areas to activate those women into work and there is a lack of transport and other services that go with it so it is a vicious circle. We spoke about it before we came before the committee. Rural homelessness among that cohort is completely silent, and we would like to see an awful lot more work done in that area. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Louise Lennon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Louise Lennon  Rural childcare providers are smaller and are very dependent on population. With that age group, it fluctuates from year to year and very often, providers' funding is dependent on that. It is a real struggle to stay afloat. As Mr. Geoghegan mentioned, trying to retain staff is another challenge. It is even harder to retain staff in a rural area. The consequences of that feed into primary schools. Very often, if someone is bringing their child to a large urban area, they have to travel to work on a daily basis to put their child in childcare in an urban area. The availability of after-school care can often be a factor in deciding to send a child to a school near an aftercare facility instead of to the local school. From speaking to a community childcare provider on one of the islands, I am aware that funding is often based on numbers. If that provider goes over a certain number, the funding is lost. This goes back to the Deputy's point about unemployment among women. They might need childcare for maybe six months of the year or less. It might not be available and, as a result, they are unable to work. Smaller providers have to meet the same regulation and criteria as the larger commercial operators. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy William Aird  This is one of the best pre-budget meetings we have ever had. I use public transport every day that I can. I am a huge believer in public transport. I meet people on the 7.40 a.m. train going to Dublin, including young parents who have left children at a cr\u00e8che. When I was a young fellow, there were not that many people who worked outside the home. Everybody has to work now because of mortgages. Childcare must be looked in the context of the budget and made affordable. The witnesses from the Wheel stated that 38% of organisations struggle to recruit and retain staff. How much of that is due to annual funding and how much is due to the wider labour market? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Guillaume Jacquinot","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Guillaume Jacquinot  In terms of multi-annual funding, a very concrete example is a HSE-funded organisation that has to recruit from year to year with zero certainty about how it can plan ahead. It cannot offer long-term contracts and people with mortgages or who are applying for mortgages need more certainty so the lack of multi-annual funding is an issue.  One issue we have not yet spoken about is pay. WRC agreements benefited some people in the organisations funded by the HSE and Tusla, namely the so-called section 10, section 39, section 40 and section 56 organisations. Not all staff were included, however. There are staff who are paid by the Departments of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration, Education and Youth, Children, Disability and Equality and Rural and Community Development and the Gaeltacht. Within the same services that get different funding, one sees staff who got WRC increases while others did not. A two-tier system has been created as a result. The pay gap between public service staff and community and voluntary organisation staff remains. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Paul O'Shea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank Mr. Talbot, Ms Aylward, Mr. Leahy, Mr. Geoghegan, Mr. Jacquinot, Mr. Claffey, Mr. Smyth and Ms Lennon for attending. I also thank them for supplying the briefing materials in advance. We have had a robust discussion this morning with very good witnesses from four different groups. I will give the witnesses two minutes each to round off things. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Michelle Aylward","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Michelle Aylward  I thank the Cathaoirleach and members. This was my first meeting, and I hope to come back. Infrastructure needs to be delivered in County Tipperary, particularly the N24 and N62. That will open up water, grid, reinforcement and local links. These are not isolated local asks. Housing, employment, town centre regeneration and rural enterprise will then follow. If infrastructure is not provided, we will not be able to make progress. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. John Leahy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. John Leahy  The room has been read well, and we have support in the room. I appreciate the job the committee has to do. Many groups appear before it and there are a lot of constraints coming down the line. We would ask the committee to support the communities in terms of operational costs and the multi-annual funding we are looking for, particularly if it feels that what we have said here today is worthy. Take the financial burden off the likes of the volunteers and community services staff out there, and we will do more. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. D\u00f3nall Geoghegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. D\u00f3nall Geoghegan  To a great degree, we focused on the services that are provided by our member organisations - the tapestry of community and voluntary organisations across the country.  What we are putting forward in terms of multiannual and adequate funding to provide them is really important. Everything we said and everything else in our budget submission would help that. There is another important dimension we got into, which is that community and voluntary organisations provide that software within our communities. That is good, not just for social inclusion, which it is, but also for social cohesion. If we are to meet and deal with the challenges we face now with disinformation, misinformation and the kinds of stories that go around dividing our society, we have to invest in community. That investment will pay off by acting as a bulwark within our democracy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Briain Smyth","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Briain Smyth  I take up Mr. Geoghegan's point. One of the elements we would like to see, which I called for at the start, is reinstatement of the social dialogue structures that were dismantled after 2008. It is evident that the more we talk, the more we understand the issues on the ground. There is a need to ensure we have a voice from the rural, community and voluntary sector at that table because it is often the one that is not heard. We want to see proper rural-proofing in these budgets moving forward. From our perspective and universally around this table we want to see the capital allocation put into meals on wheels. We also want to make sure that transport services are on a firm footing. From a climate change, climate adaption and community basis and for the other elements we spoke about today, the multiannual function with transport is important to ensure we have the resilience of those communities moving forward. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Paul O'Shea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank all of the organisations and the members for their contributions today. They are much appreciated. They will definitely feed into our budget discussions as we move forward to budget 2027. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The joint committee adjourned at 11.52 a.m. sine die ."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Pre-Budget Submissions: Discussion (Resumed)"}]}}]},"contextDate":"2026-07-15"},{"debateRecord":{"house":{"showAs":"Joint Committee on Climate, Environment and Energy","committeeCode":"joint_committee_on_climate_environment_and_energy","houseCode":"dail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/committee\/dail\/34\/joint_committee_on_climate_environment_and_energy","chamberType":"committee","houseNo":"34"},"chamber":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/def\/committee","showAs":"Joint Committee on Climate, Environment and Energy"},"lastUpdated":"2026-07-24T02:14:36+00:00","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/joint_committee_on_climate_environment_and_energy\/2026-07-15\/debate\/main","formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/joint_committee_on_climate_environment_and_energy\/2026-07-15\/debate\/mul@\/main.xml"},"pdf":null},"date":"2026-07-15","counts":{"contributorCount":9,"divisionCount":0,"debateSectionCount":1,"questionCount":0,"billCount":0},"debateType":"debate","debateSections":[{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/joint_committee_on_climate_environment_and_energy\/2026-07-15\/debate\/dbsect_2","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Plug-In Solar Technology and Regulation: Discussion","counts":{"speechCount":256,"speakerCount":10},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Craig Morris","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Noonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"R\u00e9ada Cronin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Clendennen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ciar\u00e1n Ahern","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Apologies have been received from an Teachta D\u00e1la Malcolm Byrne and an Seanad\u00f3ir Mark Duffy.  In our first session today from 12.30 to 1.30 we will have an engagement with witnesses on plug-in technology and regulation. I welcome from the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment, Mr. Robert Deegan, principal officer; Mr. Fergal McParland, chief technical adviser; and Mr. David Phelan, senior technical adviser. I remind everybody in attendance to make sure their mobile phones are on silent mode or switched off.  Before I invite the witnesses to deliver their opening statements, I advise them of the following in relation to parliamentary privilege. Witnesses and members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.  The format of the meeting is that I will invite Mr. Deegan to make an opening statement to a maximum of five minutes. Once that statement has been delivered, I will then call members of the committee, in the order they indicate to me, to put their questions. The committee operates a rota system which gives each member an initial five minutes to engage with our witnesses. As the five minutes is for both questions and answers, I ask everyone to be succinct in their questions and responses. The duration of this meeting is limited and, therefore, the times must be strictly adhered to. I ask everybody to be focused in their contributions.  I invite Mr. Deegan to make his opening statement on behalf of the Department. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  I thank the Chair and members of the committee for the invitation to discuss plug-in solar technology and regulations. I am joined by colleagues from the Department, Fergal McParland, chief technical adviser, and David Phelan, senior technical adviser.  Since 2022, we have seen significant increases in the prices that households pay for energy. The Government is acutely aware of the challenges that households face in meeting these costs and remains fully committed to supporting them. In this regard, the Minister, Deputy O\u2019Brien, has indicated his strong support for innovation in the energy sector to help customers save on their bills, provided such innovative technology is safe and securely integrated. Plug-in solar systems are an important example of such an innovative technology.  Plug-in solar systems are very small PV energy systems, usually two or three modules and less than 1 kW in total per installation, which are connected to a micro-inverter and plugged directly into a household socket. This then feeds the home\u2019s internal electricity system. Given the size and nature of the systems, they can be implemented in settings such as apartments, where traditional solar PV systems may not be suitable. For instance, they can be put on balconies or other outdoor spaces. They would also be of benefit to tenants in rental properties.  Plug-in solar systems have seen a rapid adoption in recent years in continental Europe, particularly Germany. In addition to helping households save money on their energy bills, plug-in solar can also reduce our exposure to volatile fossil fuel markets and help further our drive for homegrown renewable power, thereby supporting our energy security.  I take this opportunity to update the committee on important recent steps taken to facilitate the introduction of this technology in Ireland. On 5 May, the Minister, Deputy O\u2019Brien, wrote to ESB Networks requesting that it work with the relevant bodies to prioritise and accelerate the development of standards that will permit the use of plug-in solar systems in Ireland. The managing director of ESBN responded to the Minister on 21 May confirming ESBN's support for the safe, proportionate use of small, plug-in solar or battery devices up to a total of 800 W, provided that customer and public safety are prioritised and assured, network integrity and power quality are maintained in all operating conditions, the DSO has appropriate visibility of connected generation through a simple registration process, and devices meet the relevant technical and product standards.  A working group was then established to address the technical, safety and other issues that need to be addressed so that the technology can be introduced as quickly as possible.  Officials from the Department; ESBN; the Commission for Regulation of Utilities, CRU; the National Standards Authority of Ireland, NSAI; Safe Electric; and the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, CCPC; are represented on the working group which is chaired by ESBN. Other key stakeholders will be engaged with as necessary.  The working group met on 9 and 25 June and a range of workstreams, including an appraisal of potential options for implementation of the technology, is under way. The next meeting will take place on 23 July and work on related matters is ongoing in advance of that meeting.  In terms of the next steps, the working group is working intensively to assess options and to prepare a report with recommendations to accelerate the deployment of plug-in solar in Ireland. Similar to the UK and other jurisdictions, there are three key areas of consideration. The first is what changes to the legal and regulatory framework are needed. This is a critical area of engagement. At present, existing Irish arrangements treat domestic microgeneration as an electrical installation undertaken by a registered electrical contractor, notified to ESB Networks through the NC6 process. The working group is reviewing options in relation to how this model could be changed. This includes an assessment of proposed changes to wiring rules in the UK and other jurisdictions to facilitate domestic plug-in solar.  The second is what product standards should apply. There have been very proactive developments in plug-in solar product standards both in Germany and via the proposed product standard set out for consultation by the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero in the UK. These and others will be considered by the working group.  The third is what process can be applied to ensure the registration and visibility of connections by the distribution network operator. The working group has also made good progress on assessing how the existing NC6 process could be modified to address the requirement for registration of devices by domestic users of the distribution network operator in a simple and efficient manner. The working group will also be engaging with a range of other stakeholders including EirGrid, given the technology's impact on the transmission network, the UK Department for energy security and the UK-based Electricity Networks Association given the evolving UK position on the technology. EU guidance and the experience in Germany are also being considered. The working group intends to submit a report with recommendations to the Department and Minister in September addressing these key points.  In conclusion, the Department is working with the key stakeholders nationally and internationally to progress the roll-out of plug-in solar in a safe way as quickly as possible. Given the impact that the technology can have on household bills, plug-in solar is likely to be included in the national energy affordability task force, NEAT, action plan which will be brought to the Government in the third quarter. I again thank members for the opportunity to address the committee today. My colleagues and I are happy to answer any questions they may have. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank Mr. Deegan. If I could just clarify, he used one acronym - DSO - what is it? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  I apologise, it is distribution service operator. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  No problem. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail  I thank the witnesses for being here this afternoon. This is a really positive development. There has been a lot of commentary around plug-in solar. It is great to see that there is advancement here. I commend both the Department and ESBN on their work to date.  I have a few questions to start off. Near the end of his statement, Mr. Deegan mentioned that the NEAT action plan will include plug-in solar as an element. Will that be a recommendation in the NEAT action plan or will it be part of how we implement plug-in solar across the country? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  It is most likely to be a very strong commitment to continue to progress this. Obviously it will be dependent on the work of the working group, which is going to set out the roadmap for how we are going to bring this forward as a technology and implement it at scale. Everything to do with NEAT is subject to Government approval, so it is kind of speculative to say for definite what it is going to look like. Given the importance of the technology, in particular for people in rental accommodation and apartment buildings, it is likely that it will be included.  To hopefully give the Deputy a little reassurance, in the NEAT process so far, one of the pillars of the national energy affordability task force is specifically looking at energy poverty and affordability issues relating to that. The first step was to look at who are the people most at risk of energy poverty. It is people in rental accommodation, among others, such as people with disabilities and single-income households. Those are the kinds of population cohorts that have been identified. What we are trying to do is identify solutions for each of them and plug-in solar is part of the mix of measures. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail  I appreciate that. Mr. Deegan might not be able to give me a direct answer yet. It is great to see the progress here. When do we envisage that a person living in an apartment can purchase plug-in solar for their balcony and start using it? When does Mr. Deegan envisage that happening? We will have the action plan in the third quarter, and the work of the task force. Will it be in early 2027 or is there any sort of timeline here? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  I fully appreciate that it is the obvious question but it would be premature to give a definitive timeline to a committee like this without seeing the outcome of the report. What I can commit is that the Minister has written to ESBN and the relevant stakeholders have been mobilised to progress this as quickly as possible. It is about finding solutions to problems as opposed to putting up unnecessary delays or barriers. I am not in a position to put a precise timeline on it at the moment but the ambition from the Minister and all of the other stakeholders engaged in the process so far has been towards trying to get this done as quickly as possible. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail  As part of that as well, in particular from the NEAT perspective would there be any type of plug-in solar? When we speak about vulnerable energy users, there should be a link with the SEAI. What would be super to see in the future would be some sort of grant system through the SEAI for plug-in solar for people from more financially difficult backgrounds.  This question might be for ESBN rather than the Department's officials. As Mr. Deegan said in his statement, plug-in solar systems are \"usually two or three modules and less than 1 kW in total per installation\", however, ESBN is recommending 800 W. Why is there a discrepancy there? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  It is a technical question. If we look at the standard that is used across other jurisdictions, that tends to be where they have landed. It is a safety issue. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail  That is fine. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  Mr. McParland might be able to comment on that but ESBN would be in a position to answer it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Fergal McParland","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Fergal McParland  Briefly, 800 W or VA is the setting that people have landed on to allow a controlled environment that is safe from a domestic perspective. The safety assessment is still under way but 3.5 amps or 800 W is taken as an appropriate set for the introduction of plug-in solar. Compared to Germany, there may be a little over spec of the actual plans themselves. Given the climate and where we are, people have settled on that range. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail  That is fine. Gabhaim bu\u00edochas. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pa Daly  The witnesses are all very welcome. This is a scheme that should tick all of the boxes. It will help us to achieve climate targets. I am sure the witnesses will agree with that. It should ease pressure on the grid in some way if people are accessing power directly. Do the witnesses agree with that as well? Obviously it is renewable energy. Most importantly, it should reduce pressure on people's bills, especially those in lower income households because they would be able to access it so easily.  In his statement Mr. Deegan agreed that recent progress has been made in homegrown renewable power. Reference was made to the witnesses' involvement in the next steps. They are preparing a report to accelerate the deployment of plug-in solar. A working group has been established and it is going to submit a report with recommendations to the Minister in September. Mr. Deegan said the working group has made good progress on how the NC6 process can be modified. In the last two years since we started looking at this, Germany has 4 million plug-in solar systems operating. The UK has concluded that they can be deployed safely with the standards. There is a lot of frustration with people's bills in particular. Is Mr. Deegan happy that the progress has been fast enough, given the comparison with how quickly they have moved in other jurisdictions? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  Germany has been on this road for a little while. It has been a number of years ahead. The Germans are the trail-blazers. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pa Daly  Mr. Deegan said the Department has been looking at that jurisdiction. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  Absolutely. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pa Daly  I take it there have been learnings from what is being done in those other areas. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pa Daly  It is a bit frustrating for people to wait and wait for stuff that should have been ironed out. We will be making progress in the working group and reports will be submitted. Is Mr. Deegan happy we are moving as fast as we can? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  As I mentioned, Germany is the trail-blazer on this. It has gone ahead. Most other countries are not in the same position. Austria, Belgium and others have made a little more progress than us. The UK is consulting at the moment. It has not introduced this. Some of the media coverage might suggest they are available in shops and are being rolled out. That is not the case. We have been in ongoing contact with the institutions there. The Department and ESBN have been in touch with their colleagues. There are challenges. When you are bringing technology policies or anything like this from one jurisdiction to another, you are not beginning from the same starting point. The Minister wrote to ESBN two months ago and there has been very rapid progress since then. While we cannot control what happened in the past, we can control what is happening now. All the shoulders are to the wheel and progress is being made as quickly as possible.  We have tried to communicate that a little today. The committee will also hear directly from ESBN on what it has been doing. It is starting with the wiring and electricity part of it but it is quite wide-ranging. We are engaging with the Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment, the National Standards Authority of Ireland, NSAI, and the Department of housing. The relevant stakeholders will be mobilised to progress this as quickly as possible. We have shown very good progress in Ireland on solar PV as a technology in recent years. Solar PV panels have been installed on 120,000 houses and that figure does not include new-build houses, of which, I think, there are another 20,000 or 30,000. There has been very strong progress on solar as a technology. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pa Daly  When did the Government first start looking at it? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  The electricity markets design directive brought in an option to promote----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pa Daly  When? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  That was 2024. There was a consultation process then. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pa Daly  Mr. Deegan said the Government is not just aware of the challenges but acutely aware of the challenges. From his wording, there seems to be a real urgency but that is over two years ago now. There does not seem to be the urgency that Mr. Deegan suggests when he says the Government is \"acutely aware\". "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  The context for the use of \"acutely aware\" is the challenges facing us all in household bills and so on. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pa Daly  If it really was that urgent, should there not be a bit more progress? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  This is one solution, which will be part of a very comprehensive suite of measures that will be introduced as part of the national energy affordability task force forum. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pa Daly  Surely we should have got over the safety concerns at this stage at least? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  We need to take the safety concerns very seriously. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pa Daly  Could the Department not regulate for those rather than trying to do everything before we kick off? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  We will hear from the next speaker. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  The process started two months ago. What we are doing at the moment is identifying the risks at the household level, the local network level and the transmission system level. We will identify those risks and take them off one by one and come up with a solution. It is two months into concentrated work on this. It is important to----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pa Daly  I have one final question. When does Mr. Deegan think it might be available? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Very quickly, Mr. Deegan. I would like a short answer, please. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  We will be in a much better position to give an answer to that in September when the working groups report. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pa Daly  Will it be by the end of the year? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  I would not speculate on that at the moment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Noonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Malcolm Noonan  I thank the witnesses. This is a very welcome development. In looking at the regulatory and safety framework, etc., is the Department giving consideration to plug-in storage as well as just the panels? On the Continent, you can go to IKEA in Belgium and buy the panels for \u20ac400. You can buy battery storage for \u20ac800. You are kitted out for a very reasonable cost, with a payback period of two to three years. That is an attractive prospect for a lot of households. The battery storage also gives the opportunity to deploy and use the power at peak times. That would be really significant in this. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  It is a very interesting and important point. Battery storage definitely has a part to play. There can be a timing issue. It is interesting that the UK is not looking at batteries at the moment. It is focused on the plug-in solar technology and not looking at batteries at the moment. I will hand over to my colleague Mr. McParland. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Fergal McParland","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Fergal McParland  As Mr. Deegan said, what we are trying to do with the working group is accelerate and probably do it on a phased basis. The regulatory and legislative framework associate with plug-in solar is, in itself, complex. The objective is to try to unravel that and make sure we get that right as quickly as possible.  The UK approach is relevant. We mentioned Germany. Over probably a ten-year period, Germany sequenced its approach to plug-in solar. It started off with dedicated circuits and dedicated sockets. It then developed a legislative framework to carry that forward and be more openly available. In the UK, alongside a safety assessment that is still live and up for consultation, and it is a significant part of its pathway for delivering these onto the market, they have landed on a controlled environment for plug-in solar and that environment does not include storage for the moment. Via the working group, we will propose to look at that in phase 2. To be immediate and get an appropriate framing of this, the first thing we are doing is looking at the Irish jurisdiction and the legal and regulatory framework around plugs as a product and then the legislative framework to unravel the NC6 process, which is in place with ESB Networks. It is, first, bite-size to try to stage this process and, second, the framing of this via the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero, DESNZ, and its consultation is about assessing plug-in solar from a safety perspective and a legislative and regulatory perspective first. That in itself is complex. We can talk about some of the potential regulatory and standards changes we may require here. It is because of that complexity that we will probably keep to the plug-in solar remit to begin with. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Noonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Malcolm Noonan  The Department does see that storage has really significant potential. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Fergal McParland","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Fergal McParland  Absolutely. Storage has a critical part to play at all levels of the electricity system in Ireland. It is a key enabler for our energy transition, so it is absolutely critical. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Noonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Malcolm Noonan  Something crucial for the most vulnerable households and critical to the energy affordability action plan is the private rental sector. What role does the Department see for the RTB in the regulatory assessment? Would registration of houses that will provide that for tenants be done through the RTB or will legislative change be required to enable the private rental sector to provide facilities for tenants, rather than having an ad hoc system where tenants might bring solar panels with them to a house or provide them themselves? How does the Department anticipate that might work in the private rental sector? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  We are at a stage in the process where we have not got to that particular challenge but we will engage with our colleagues in the Department of housing on the rental sector and all the agencies that are relevant to it, as well as the local authorities. The Senator asks a very valid question which we do not have an answer to at the moment.  On retrofitting and solar in the rental sector more generally, it is important to get the message out that there are very good supports available from the SEAI to the rental sector. There are grants available to landlords under the solar PV scheme and the other general schemes in the SEAI. There is also a tax rebate available for landlords. There is also a low-cost loan scheme available. Those measures together add up to quite a good package for landlords and the rental sector. The tenants get the benefit of that through lower energy use and more comfortable homes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"R\u00e9ada Cronin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy R\u00e9ada Cronin  I thank the witnesses for coming in to discuss this interesting topic.  Is Ireland going to adopt the German safety criteria? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  That is under consideration. It has not been determined yet. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"R\u00e9ada Cronin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy R\u00e9ada Cronin  What alternatives are being looked at? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  Obviously, we are looking at it from an Irish perspective. We are looking at the approaches that have been used in other jurisdictions. Obviously, the UK is our closest neighbour. We are closely following developments on the consultation process that is ongoing. Our understanding is that the Department is due to respond to that consultation process later this month. We will be reading that with interest. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"R\u00e9ada Cronin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy R\u00e9ada Cronin  ESB Networks, which will appear before the committee later, highlighted risks of thermal overloading, particularly where more than one unit is being used. How legitimate are those concerns? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  I will hand over to my technical colleagues in a moment but, from a policy perspective, it is important to take that kind of message seriously, given it is coming from an organisation like ESB Networks. There are real risks in this regard. If there were no risks, this would have been done already. We are trying to do it in a way that manages the risks in a proportionate way. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"R\u00e9ada Cronin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy R\u00e9ada Cronin  The Department is considering setting a limit on the number of units that----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  Absolutely. I will hand over to Mr. McParland. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Fergal McParland","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Fergal McParland  I previously mentioned the importance of a controlled environment as a way of describing how plug-in solar can work. The Department for Energy Security and Net Zero recommends, subject to the consultation under way, one unit per household. When it comes to the safety risk, the Institute of Engineering and Technology, IET, issued a joint statement prior to the consultation in the UK, which summarises the challenge. It is not clear how plug-in solar panels would work with the millions of electrical systems already found in homes, especially older properties. Many homes have ageing wiring, outdated safety devices or systems that have not been checked in years. A product that looks easy to use could end up being connected to a home electrical system that was never designed for it. In the worst case, it could increase the risk of overheating, fire or electric shock. That is a statement on the safety challenge.  The counter-argument that has been made is that these have been deployed in other jurisdictions. The DESNZ has carried out a jurisdictional assessment of that safety risk in the context of the types of circuits found in Ireland and the UK. It has published that safety assessment. While it is not a full assessment, it presents evidence that those safety challenges may be addressed. That is the subject of review by the working group in Ireland at the moment. Obviously, the consultation is still under way. I, therefore, want to be cautious about what we say in that regard.  The IET is talking about challenges such as daisy-chaining, where someone uses an extension lead to plug a number of these devices in. One of the challenges with this is that we are moving from a restricted environment that treats microgeneration as a fixed installation that needs oversight by a registered electrical contractor, REC, to one where it is being presented as a consumer-connectable product. Making that transition is challenging. We need to look at a rake of legislative and standard rules associated with those products. From a broader safety perspective, we also need to ask ourselves, similar to the questions asked in the UK, whether we are satisfied that transferring from fixed installation to product deployment satisfies the safety challenges that we have. That is a key question that the working group is asking at the moment. It is considering the options to address the issue. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"R\u00e9ada Cronin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy R\u00e9ada Cronin  The CRU is being mentioned as a body that would be involved in this from an oversight perspective. Is it ready to do that, or will it require more resourcing? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  The CRU is part of the working group. The roles and responsibilities will be determined based on organisations' statutory roles and the determination as to how this is going to be implemented. The CRU is absolutely embedded in the working group. It is a full and active participating member of it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"R\u00e9ada Cronin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy R\u00e9ada Cronin  This is welcome. It is going to be great for renters, but we cannot take our foot off the gas around offshore energy as well. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Clendennen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Clendennen  I thank our witnesses for joining us today. Certainly, it is an interesting initiative from the perspective of reducing bills and emissions, promoting renewables and giving an opportunity for buy-in in an easier access, lower entry way. While not solely the case, I get the impression that this is predominately targeted at apartment blocks. Often, apartment blocks have a policy against satellite dishes. Solar panels are multiple sizes larger than them. Will that be a barrier to overcome? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  It is one of the issues that have been raised. We will have to engage with the Department of housing about that. Obviously, this issue, along with many of the other issues that we are going to go through, have been cracked in Germany. We have to take that into account. Solutions have been found. The working group is looking at this with a focus on solutions. As we are identifying these issues and risks, we are going to have to try to come up with solutions to them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Clendennen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Clendennen  Is there a risk in this regard? For example, rather than solar PV being prescribed as suitable for a balcony, or whatever the case may be, we might end up with a free-for-all, where we have a bigger problem with satellite dishes, solar PV, storage and so on. That needs to be taken into consideration. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  It definitely needs to be identified. Everyone needs to be aware of the risks and challenges so that we can come up with solutions to them. It cannot be a case of ignoring them. We want to be fully aware of the implications in this regard, from an electricity system perspective and more broadly. Owner management companies, OMCs, have their own rules as well, so they----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Clendennen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Clendennen  From an inclusivity perspective, anyone can apply for a SEAI grant, whether it be for attic installation, retrofits, air to water systems, heat pumps and so forth. In this situation, however, if someone's property is north-facing, is it a waste of time? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  They will definitely not get the same output. It depends on the direction and angle the panel is pointed at. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Clendennen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Clendennen  Would Mr. Deegan encourage a north-facing building to engage with plug-in solar? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  It is unlikely to get the same benefit compared with a south-facing building. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Clendennen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Clendennen  Are we creating a two-tier system? I am just teasing this out with the witnesses. It is 100% for those south-facing properties, but it does not have that all-encompassing initiative and objective that other SEAI programmes have. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  There will be different solutions for different population cohorts, building archetypes and subsets of society. We need to identify the groups struggling the most and then try to come up with solutions for them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Clendennen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Clendennen  For argument's sake, let us take an apartment block with 100 apartments. The 50 apartments on the south side can get it, while the 50 on the north side cannot. How do we create something equal or address the imbalance there? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  I am not sure there is a technical solution to that in terms of the panels or anything on that front. However, in the future, there will be energy sharing coming down the road under the electricity market design directive. There will be different solutions for different cohorts. I have to admit that it is not a problem we identified with this particular product. Obviously, it will not work as well for those on the north side of a building. We had not thought of it from a discriminatory perspective. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Clendennen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Clendennen  If I get a contractor out to my home in the morning, the first question they ask is where the sun and the south-facing point are. There is a question about feasibility straight away. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  Absolutely, but it is the same with all solar technology. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Clendennen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Clendennen  I appreciate that. However, in an apartment block in a built-up area where it could be a solution, only 50% of the apartments have eligibility and accessibility to it.  There is frequent reference to Germany in the documentation provided, but what is the current rate of adaptation among other EU member states? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  Germany is streets ahead of other member states. The likes of Belgium, the Netherlands and Austria are the other countries that are notable for higher levels of uptake. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Clendennen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Clendennen  Are we in the bunch or at the tail end? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  There are probably three or four groups. Germany is out on its own. There is then another group behind Germany. Next is the group that is ambitious about doing something in this area, which Ireland sits in. The final group consists of states that are not as active in this space. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Clendennen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Clendennen  On a simple level, when I was a young fella, it was all about who left the immersion on. Take the scenario where, on a nice sunny day, someone living in an apartment leaves the solar PV on and leaves the apartment. Is that going to be the equivalent of the modern day immersion? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  It will not cost anything. It will be fed back----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Clendennen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Clendennen  Is there a safety element to it? Could it pose a risk? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  It has not arisen as an issue in Germany. The electricity feeds into the network from the house.  The Deputy has put his finger on an important point. The way to get value from the investment in plug-in solar is to use it yourself. It is for self-consumption. If you are----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Clendennen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Clendennen  The objective is not microgeneration. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  It is not. It is microgeneration for self-consumption as opposed to----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Clendennen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Clendennen.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Clendennen  Of course, but not for additional----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  -----for the grid. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ciar\u00e1n Ahern","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ciar\u00e1n Ahern  I thank the witnesses for coming in. This seems like a bit of a no-brainer. I welcome the fact that we are having this session today and the work that the witnesses have been doing so far. It is about bringing low-carbon energy into what have up to now seemingly been quite hard-to-reach sectors, such as the rental sector. It is going to be a part of the solution.  My understanding of how this technology works is that it does not bring the same amount of energy that a rooftop solar panel would. You may be plugging your mobile phones, fridge, washing machine and things like that into it. Have the witnesses any sense of what it could and should be used for? Bearing that in mind, do they have any sense of how this might help to reduce people's household bills and by how? How long might it take to get back the investment you have put in to buy these plug-in solar panels? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  I have seen varied estimates of what can be gained. The one I would probably point to is the UK research, which estimated \u00a370 to \u00a3110. The saving is very much dependent on how much electricity you use while you are at home. The electricity is being fed into your household, so whatever is running at the time is powered by the electricity being generated. I do not know whether my technical colleagues have anything to add. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. David Phelan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. David Phelan  During the day, energy consumption could be between 400 W and 800 W. This could generate up to between 1.7 amps and 3.5 amps. That is the power equivalent. It powers whatever is on during the daylight period. It is through self-consumption, as Mr. Deegan said, that you get the benefit. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ciar\u00e1n Ahern","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ciar\u00e1n Ahern  You are not plugging things directly into it. Whatever is on in your house at the same time is powered. That is fair enough.  One of the benefits we have heard about these panels is that you can rock up to your local supermarket and pick them up from the middle aisle, go home, plug them in and get the benefit immediately. However, it seems from what the witnesses have told us today and what was in the opening statement that it is not quite as simple as that. There is going to be some sort of registration process. The witnesses have said that no household should be operating with more than one of these. How in practical terms do they see that working? When the consumer goes to the shop, will there be a registration process at the point of sale? Would you have to register before you can take the product home? How do they see that process working? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  I will hand over to Mr. McParland. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Fergal McParland","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Fergal McParland  This is one of the key points of discussion with ESB Networks, whose representatives will be able to talk about it a little. ESB Networks' NC6 process is designed for microgeneration. What we want to do is a simplified version of the NC6 process so that you can quickly register the device when you purchase it and bring it home. We do not have the details of the exact cycle. The point of selecting and registering the product is that the distribution system operator then has full visibility of the scale of plug-in solar that is coming onto the system. The transmission system operator would also have that. We are working to see how we can do this as opposed to how not to do it. It will be important in years to come that, in the transition to a low-carbon system, we have full visibility and our system operator is able to work to understand the demand profile in that regard. A simplified NC6 is the process for it.  The Deputy has asked how we control it. That is a part of the discussion around safety and the challenge around who can deploy it. The product specification in Germany was developed over several years. It is a substantial piece of work that provides detail on how the product should operate in a household setting. It was then modified by the UK's Department for Energy Security and Net Zero to address the plug-and-socket framework in the UK. Even in that context, in the consultation version, the product specification states that you should not deploy plug-in solar in a dwelling that does not have the appropriate protection circuits in place. With plug-in solar, you are transferring to the consumer the overall safety assessment by a registered electrical contractor that is currently in place in respect of microgeneration. That is not necessarily a bad thing. It is a matter we are assessing. The working group will try to figure it out. The controllability of that is obviously weak. The question is whether the product standard is fit enough to support that deployment. A safety test has been published by the UK department. It is subject to consultation. It deployed products - in a limited environment, it must be said - to test whether any material issues would arise. That is where that is at. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Heneghan  I thank the witnesses for coming in. I also thank the Cathaoirleach and the rest of the committee. On the costing point, Mr. Deegan said \u00a370 to \u00a3110----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  That was in the UK. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Heneghan  The UK has different costs per kWh and similar weather. By my calculations, plug-in solar would save approximately \u20ac200 or \u20ac250 per year, with a payback period of approximately 14 to 18 months. It is important to put that on the record.  Some elderly people and those in social and affordable housing are struggling to pay their bills. A rooftop solar kit could cost anywhere between \u20ac6,000 and \u20ac10,000 after grants. The payback period is seven to ten years. Do the witnesses agree that the initial upfront cost of plug-in solar is better for people who do not have the money to pay a high upfront cost for a large-scale solar rooftop and that the payback period is a lot shorter? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  There are definite benefits to this technology. It all depends on your use. There are many variables in terms of the payback for either rooftop or plug-in solar, but there is definitely a place for this. The rental sector and the apartment sector are two sectors that are often seen as a little bit behind other sectors. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Heneghan  That is brilliant and fantastic. I thank Mr. Deegan.  I want to ask about the consultation in 2024. I looked at the consultation submissions. Did the Department push back on some of the submissions it got from some people? It happened before I was elected, obviously, because I would have raised the issue had I been elected. The Department ran a consultation on the electricity market directive. I have looked at the five submissions on plug-in solar. The Electricity Association of Ireland, EAI, stated that plug-in solar should not be transposed because there is no established process, such as the NC6 form, for microgeneration. Energia stated that plug-in solar may not be appropriate and that with plug-in solar, it would be difficult to facilitate a similar process to the NC6 form. Bord G\u00e1is Energy stated that these systems should be mounted on roofs where possible and hard-wired into dedicated circuits to the homeowners' consumer units rather than plugged into a socket in the wall. Electric Ireland stated that it supported the position set out by the EAI in its response with regard to plug-in mini solar systems. That is very good. ESB Networks, to its credit, did not oppose plug-in solar but stated that it would welcome further engagement.  In the submissions from Bord G\u00e1is and others, the NC6 argument is simply wrong. Did the Department push back? Bord G\u00e1is recommended rooftop hard-wiring. That is completely against the point of what we are trying to do. We are trying to get people who do not have access to rooftops the ability to use solar. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  That is a good summary of the comments that were made at the time. It was a consultation process, so it was an input to the process of transposing the directive. It is not really a kind of ongoing conversation----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Heneghan  Okay. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  -----whereby we get back to them and then they come back to us. We can see what has happened now. Circumstances have changed. It has been proven to work in Germany. In just those two years, or not even quite two years,----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Heneghan  It is brilliant. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  It has moved quickly. The Minister is now showing very good form on this by convening the group and the group----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Heneghan  I welcome that. I apologise for interrupting. It is just because of the clock. That was a consultation process and if some of the facts in consultations are wrong, the Department should push back against the semi-State company that is giving it the wrong advice. That was my question.  I understand the safety risk and that it is something that the Department needs to run at. How did Germany get away from the fact that someone could plug five of them into a single extension lead and plug it into the wall? Are we trying to suggest that Irish people are not as intelligent as German people and cannot put a single plug into a wall? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  That is absolutely not the case. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Heneghan  Very good. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  We would never say that. There are technical differences, though. I might just----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Heneghan  I understand that. Germany's entire electricity system, and the entire country, was remade after the war. I understand the single-phase argument that Mr. Deegan is going to make and that Germany has a newer electrical system. I just want to know whether we can do a trial period faster because I have constituents struggling with wages and costs and this is something we can do immediately. I welcome Senator Noonan's contribution regarding battery storage. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Can we get a comment on the technical standards? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. David Phelan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. David Phelan  On the wiring set-up in Germany, in simple terms, there is a single conductor cable going right out with a single point-of-use appliance. There is a very small number of sockets. In Ireland, we have a ring main, and we have a good number of sockets and devices on it. It is a completely different wiring set-up. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Heneghan  Yes. The German system would have been better for a two-way flow. I understand that, but we all know how electrons work. They go to the path of least resistance. If there is a fridge or something on standby, for example, they are going to go there. With new-build apartments and most modern houses, could we roll this technology out as a pilot scheme in social and affordable housing, with Dublin City Council, DCC, and Fingal County Council, to save people money on their bills right now?  Thank God we are not in the sun because we would all be scorched. We have had brilliant weather and every time I am walking or cycling into work, I am thinking about how much money people could be saving on their bills immediately. I understand that the ISO standards need to be changed. There was no push-back regarding the 2024 consultation. Since then, we have seen the consultation in the UK, as well as the German work since 2016. Can some of their work be used to speed up the process and help people to save money on their bills? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  Absolutely. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Heneghan  Brilliant. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  We will be availing of any experience internationally that can be of benefit to us. The ongoing relationships we have with our counterparts in the UK will be helpful in that regard. We will be learning from what is being done over there. It is important, however, to reiterate the point that while the UK is consulting on this, it has not actually done it yet. When the next phase is complete there, and it will not be long before it happens because the response will be coming out on 22 July, we will get a lot of very helpful information from it. We are in here just a little bit too soon, and it is probably a little frustrating that we do not have all of the answers at the moment, but intensive work is ongoing. We will have those answers and we will be delighted to come back in later in the year to give the committee an update. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Heneghan  Whether it is plug-in solar or other adaptations involving the Government, it is frustrating for the Irish people that we wait for the UK to do it first. Can we not lead and get it done before that country? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  We are availing of the information that will flow from that process in the UK, but we are also doing our own work on this. It is not like we are waiting for somebody else to do it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Heneghan  Brilliant. I thank Mr. Deegan. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Whitmore  I thank the witnesses for coming in. This is an important discussion. There are real opportunities with plug-in solar. As we mentioned, for people who cannot avail of standard rooftop solar systems, this technology could bring their cost of living and electricity prices down by approximately \u20ac200 a year, which is not to be sniffed at. It is a lot of money. We know a lot of people are struggling at the moment. We have just seen prices go up and up.  The witnesses mentioned Germany a few times. That country has had this system in place since 2019. It has been hugely successful over there, with over 1.5 million homes now having plug-in solar. We are very slow in dealing with innovation and new technologies. This slowness means it takes us so long to get anything in place that should be relatively simple, such as plug-in solar which has already been rolled out successfully in other countries, while at the same time people are just watching their bills go up and up. Similar to what has been said, can we get this technology out any quicker? I had a look at the ESB's documentation. Is it the case that someone can get plug-in solar now if they get an electrician to do it? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  If they hardwire it in and follow the processes, which are essentially the same processes as for rooftop solar. The system needs to be hardwired in and the traditional NC6 process followed. It would then be compliant. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Whitmore  I imagine that quite a lot of people living in apartments or rental units would be prepared to get an electrician and absorb that cost because they could get the system in place. Is this not something we could be saying to people? Could we not tell people that while we are going through the process of figuring out how this can be done without an electrician overseeing it, there is a way they can do it, if they need to and want to, using an electrician and here are the steps they need to take? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  There is nothing from a technical or electricity system perspective but, as Deputy Clendennen mentioned, there may be issues in respect of the owner management company or rules concerning what people can put on their buildings. These issues need to be looked at. There is a range of options. All these things are going to be considered by the working group and there will be pilots. These things are the types of potential options that could arise from going through the policy development process. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Whitmore  Are these plug-in solar systems for sale in Ireland at the moment? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  They are not available in stores but they can be available online. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Fergal McParland","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Fergal McParland  One of the key things is to make sure we have and certify a product specification that is based on the German technical specification, which has been amended. The usefulness of the UK amendment is that it treats changes for plugs and sockets that we have over here because we just import the British standards. That is very useful. The certification of a fit-for-purpose product is important. Where issues have arisen in Germany, and consumer tests have been done on deployments, it was not because of the types of safety issues we talked about. It concerned substandard products that have not complied with the standard. We need to get the product standard in place and then we need to make sure the type of legislative changes required, if necessary, are presented. The NC6 process, however, will allow those deployments. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Whitmore  If someone had a system now, they could get an electrician to do it but we do not have the products here that have the specification. It is the standards stopping this happening now. How quickly can those standards be put in place? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  It would be helpful if the UK standards were set. We are such a small market that we tend to avail of those product standards. There is no standard at the moment that is a critical step in ensuring safety. It is to do with the wiring, product standards and registration. Each of these issues needs to be addressed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Whitmore  I imagine that the safety standards will be introduced in the UK shortly. It would be possible then for someone to import this technology from the UK and get their electrician out to install it safely and legally. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  We would need to see what the situation will be at the time. These are hypothetical situations. These will all be considered, but the important part is that people will not be compliant if they plug it in themselves. If an electrician does it, and there is compliance with all the rules and regulations in relation to microgeneration, I can see where the Deputy is coming from on that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Whitmore  I will clarify that.  I have a brief question on the affordability task force. One of the things being looking at was changing the definition of \"vulnerable\" when it comes to electricity bills and how people are dealt with by retailers. This is because \"vulnerability\" at the moment only refers to medical vulnerability and not to financial vulnerability. How far along is this process and will financial vulnerability be included? We have a huge problem with energy affordability here and not having financial vulnerability included in that definition is a real gap. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  It is an issue that is definitely being considered. We are working with the CRU on definitions and even providing clarification on existing definitions. It would be premature to say anything beyond that. It is one of the things being considered by the task force but no decisions have been made on it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I have a couple of questions from my perspective. On the payback period, there must be some modelling in this regard. What is the best guess or estimate for the payback period? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  These systems are not available in Ireland now. We can work off other jurisdictions and what their payback periods are. Deputy Heneghan mentioned that payback can come after a year and a half to two years, but I have seen longer payback periods. It all depends on the use of the system, where it is located, how it is angled, how much of the power is used by the owner and whether they are at home to use the power generated. There are a lot of variables. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Assumptions will be made about payback in the assessment, presumably in terms of NEAT? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  It is one of the things that will be considered. It will probably be people trying to sell these systems who will really be pushing the payback. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Is 800 W an absolute limit? Is that the total generation capacity in a domestic unit, such as an apartment? A microwave runs at about 800 W or 900 W. It is not a huge limit. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Fergal McParland","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Fergal McParland  That has been set specifically from a safety perspective, to allow 3.5 A to run through the circuit. I will pass that over to Mr. Phelan. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. David Phelan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. David Phelan  Yes, 800 W is typically the cap throughout the European jurisdiction. A kettle might run at 3,000 W but it is set very low because of safety criteria and the circuit set-up as well. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Is there a risk of it being set too low? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Fergal McParland","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Fergal McParland  I do not think so. We are standardised across Europe. Germany was actually at 600 W mid-cycle through its deployment and then moved to 800 W after technical studies. It comes back to the IT concern around additional current running in a circuit and the ability of the protection scheme within a domestic setting to manage it. The ability of the inverter device,  the scale and the panels are all set to work in a domestic setting. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  What is the registration about? It sounds like the technology will work. Once the standards are right  and the technology will work, you will be able to plug it in and get it running. What is the registration about? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Fergal McParland","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Fergal McParland  The registration is critical for the distribution system operator, DSO. It provides visibility of the scale and the number of these. Hopefully, we will have a successful deployment of plug-in solar and it will become really important from a NEAT perspective, as we talked about. It is not just the Irish DSO. All distribution system operators in Europe and the UK want visibility of the level of plug-in solar so they have an understanding of the net demand on the distribution network. As there is significant roll-out of this in combination with broader solar, wind and other low-carbon technologies, it is really important that the DSO and the TSO have full visibility of what the load looks like. That is effectively what it is about. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  So, effectively, it is external to the installation. Is the NSAI involved in any of this? I presume it is. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  It is a member of the working group. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  On Deputy Heneghan's question about the 2024 consultation, it is clear some of the bigger players in the market did not like this idea. They probably like to control generation. This is a source of energy they will not control. Is the Department still detecting that or are people accepting we need to move on to this? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Robert Deegan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Robert Deegan  We are not seeing any push-back to the Minister's announcement and the working group's work. Things have moved on a lot. It has only been a couple of years but things have moved on quite a bit. Those consultation responses identified risks, problems and challenges. It is for the working group, the Department and all the other stakeholders to work collectively to overcome those. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  That is great. We are just about out of time. I thank all the participants for coming in and presenting their statement and taking our questions. We will publish the opening statement on the committee website, if that is okay. We will suspend now to allow this group of witnesses to leave and our next group to come in. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Sitting suspended at 1.33 p.m. and resumed at 1.37 p.m. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  We will now resume our engagement with witnesses on plug-in solar technology and regulation. From ESB Networks DAC, we have Mr. Nicholas Tarrant, managing director; Mr. Alan Rossiter, head of strategy and network development, and Ms Bevin Cody, strategy, stakeholder engagement, innovation and electrification. From Bundesverband Steckersolar e.V., which is the German association of plug-in solar, Mr. Craig Morris, CEO, is joining us via Microsoft Teams and from Alexa Capital, we have Mr. Gerard Reid, partner and co-founder. They are all very welcome.  I remind everybody in attendance to make sure their mobile phones are on silent mode or switched off. Before I invite the witnesses to deliver their opening statements, I advise them of the following in relation to parliamentary privilege. Witnesses and members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.  I will invite the witnesses to make an opening statement to a maximum of five minutes. Once the statements have been delivered, I will call members of the committee, in the order in which they indicate to me, to put their questions. The committee operates a rota system that gives each member an initial five minutes to engage with our witnesses. As the five minutes is for both questions and answers, I ask everyone to be succinct in their questions and responses. The duration of this meeting is limited and, therefore, the times must be strictly adhered to. I ask everybody to be focused in their contributions.  I now invite Mr. Tarrant to make an opening statement on behalf of ESB Networks DAC. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Nicholas Tarrant","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Nicholas Tarrant  I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for the invitation to today's meeting. I am the managing director of ESB Networks and I am joined by my colleagues Alan Rossiter, head of strategy and network development, and Bevin Cody, senior manager responsible for innovation and electrification in ESB Networks.  We welcome to opportunity to discuss plug-in solar technology and regulations with the committee today.  On the area of safety and technical standards, as the distribution system operator, ESB Networks requires visibility of all generation connected to the distribution network for the purposes of maintaining system security, regulating voltage, managing congestion and planning future investments and flexibility needs. Our role does not extend to the approval of standards for devices such as plug-in solar.  ESB Networks recognises that a robust legal, safety and technical standards framework is needed to protect customers behind the electricity meter within their homes. The responsibility for developing such standards and frameworks lies outside of ESB Networks\u2019 remit. ESB Networks, at the request of the Minister for Climate, Energy and the Environment, is engaging with relevant bodies, including the National Standards Authority of Ireland, NSAI, Safe Electric and the CRU, to co-ordinate our respective roles with a view to setting out a shared pathway to accelerate the deployment of plug-in solar. We have convened a cross-industry working group to progress this, and it has met twice in June 2026.  Members of the working group have identified a number of technical and safety risks associated with the deployment of plug-in solar generation that need to be taken into consideration in the development of a standards framework. For example, the existing wiring in a customer\u2019s home may not be suitable for the introduction of bidirectional power flows where power is either imported from or exported to the electricity network. Protective devices in the home may not operate as intended in the case of a fault. There is also the possibility of thermal overloading, particularly if more than one unit is installed. The working group has made progress in identifying potential solutions to address these issues and we will continue to support the work to finalise proposals for the Minister and the Department while closely monitoring developments in the UK.  In the area of alignment with UK standards, ESB Networks is participating in discussions regarding the evolving situation in the UK through our membership of the Electricity Networks Association, ENA, with a view to ensuring that a consistent approach is taken by the distribution system operators across Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. The situation in the UK is evolving. Two consultations on plug-in solar have recently concluded, one relating to network standards, led by the ENA, and the other relating to interim product specifications and standards, led by the UK's Department for Energy Security and Net Zero.  ESB Networks\u2019 existing process for managing the connection of microgen has enabled almost 200,000 customers to connect rooftop solar to the distribution network to date, largely on an inform and connect basis. This process is currently available to customers wishing to install plug-in solar and storage devices but requires sign off by a registered electrical contractor. We recognise that this process is not fully suited to plug-in technologies. We have reviewed the approaches taken in other countries and have identified changes to our standards and procedures that would support the deployment of this technology in Ireland while also maintaining network visibility. Specifically, this work will involve updating the conditions governing the connection and operation of microgen and expanding ESB Networks\u2019 low-carbon technology register to include network-compliant plug-in generation devices. These changes will allow for the introduction of simple online processes for customers to register compliant products. ESB Networks is working to progress these changes as quickly as possible so that they are ready to implement once the wider safety and technical standards framework is in place.  ESB Networks is acutely aware of the cost pressures that electricity customers are facing and the opportunity that plug-in solar may present for wider participation in the energy transition. The necessary safety and technical framework is paramount and critical for maintaining public trust. ESB Networks will progress the changes necessary within our systems, as they relate to our responsibilities as distribution system operator, to simplify the connection process for these devices. We will continue to engage with other agencies and the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment over the coming months.  Go raibh maith agaibh. We are happy to take questions from members in due course. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank Mr. Tarrant. I invite Mr. Morris to give his opening statement on behalf of Bundesverband Steckersolar. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Craig Morris","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Craig Morris  I thank the committee for the invitation to speak today. Plug-in solar represents a new opportunity for a large swathe of the population that has not been able to participate in the energy transition at home to date. To be clear, rooftop solar is wonderful, but not everyone has access to their roof, nor does everyone have the roughly \u20ac10,000 needed to install a rooftop PV. Fortunately, these people can now get started generating solar power at home for only around \u20ac500 euros thanks to plug-in solar.  Plug-in solar is much less expensive for two reasons. First, the systems are smaller. Second, they do not require a professional roofer, nor is an electrician necessarily required. By and large, people can safely install these systems themselves. In Germany, roughly one household in ten has already done so. If legislators then minimise red tape, such as no permitting required and a simple registration, a mature plug-in solar market will quickly emerge.  Are systems installed by non-professionals safe? I will not ask the committee to take my word for it. Instead, I will refer members to the German firefighters' association and to German insurance firms. Members can find references to both of these sources in our white paper from June 2026. German firefighters see no increased risk from plug-in solar and merely want to ensure that any PV systems installed do not block a balcony from being used as an emergency escape exit. German insurers agree about the low risk, which is why they simply include coverage of plug-in solar in standard home contents policies, without raising the premium.  What should a proper policy for plug-in solar look like? It should include a right to install. Property management and local authorities must have good reason to block residents, including owners, from installing plug-in solar, as these systems do not permanently change a building. They can be removed without a trace. The policy should define the size of plug-in solar in alternating current, AC, terms, meaning the inverter and not the solar panels, as is usual for solar arrays. The standard in Europe is becoming 800 W. Require registration but make it simple. For example, offer a small incentive of \u20ac20 to have people sign up for it with their names, addresses, power meter numbers and basic solar information. This would make the process feel like they are signing up for a rebate and not being forced to register their system. Ireland's grid operators will thank legislators.  In addition, the Government should add plug-in solar to existing one-stop-shops for community energy. The public needs to understand how this technology works, how to install it, what payback can be expected, and when they should contact an electrician to be on the safe side, such as when their breakers already trip regularly. Likewise, property managers, housing firms and local officials already have full plates and are not waiting for plug-in solar. A campaign is needed with the help of civil society to get everyone informed and on board. The Bundesverband Steckersolar, BVSS, has already produced a lot of material that can be used for these purposes, and we are happy to help Ireland design future schemes. I should add that our board chairman is the convener of the German standards working group for plug-in solar, if the committee would like us to negotiate with Irish standards experts.  Up to now, households that did not have enough spare cash for proper rooftop solar or that could not make decisions about their roofs have been asked to help cover the cost of the energy transition without being able to generate their own solar power. Now, almost everyone can get involved. The next steps will be flexibility from plug-in batteries, which we are already seeing more of in Australia and the United States than in Germany. Then, all households will truly be able to play a role in the energy transition and Ireland's grid operators will really thank legislators.  I look forward to members' questions. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank Mr. Morris. I invite Mr. Reid from Alexa Capital to give his opening statement. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Gerard Reid","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Gerard Reid  I will give the committee a little bit of context. I come from the finance world and have spent the last 20 years financing entrepreneurs in the energy space, working with innovative utilities to help them change their business models. I also help them to finance infrastructure.  I will give the committee my conclusion of where we are at. I have been out of Ireland for 25 years and have recently come back. It is probably important that the committee hears my outside-in view. The reality is that we are going through an energy revolution across our world and we are electrifying all of our energy systems. There are a few drivers of that. The first one is very simple, which is energy security. We can see what is going on in the Strait of Hormuz today. Our economies cannot deal with the volatility that comes around when there are crises in the gas markets and the oil markets. That is the first thing.  The second thing is that if one wants to decarbonise in a cost-effective way, one electrifies.  The third point, which is really important, is that there is incredible technology innovation in the electricity area that makes it much cheaper to use electricity than fossil fuels. I will give a very simple example of that. BMW announced the other day that it would basically be unable to make money over the next five years because the Chinese are not buying its cars. That is because the Chinese are buying electric cars. A total of 70% of vehicles being bought are electric. Why are they doing this? It is because they are cheap. Why do I say that? To explain, let us talk about what are the technologies in the electricity space that are revolutionising our world.  Number one is solar. We have never seen a technology in the energy space come to market as quickly as that. I will explain what I mean by that. Last year, enough solar was installed to power the whole of Japan. I ask the committee to realise what I have said there - the whole of Japan. The reason for that is because that technology is really quick to deploy and anyone can do it. When we talk about balcony solar and plug-in solar, it becomes even easier.  The second thing, which we have not yet spoken about, is lithium-ion batteries. Every one of us has a battery in our pocket. Combine solar with batteries and guess what? Suddenly, one is in a really interesting world.  The third thing is power electronics, that is, the management of all of this. If Werner von Siemens, the founder of Siemens, was here today, he would say \"Oh my God\". The management of this power system has not changed in 100 years. Give him a mobile phone and he would say \"Good God, I don't know what to do with that\". I am being facetious when I say that but the energy industry in general is resistant to technology change. What happens if one resists technology change? One gets in trouble. If I look at Ireland, I can see that Ireland has the most expensive electricity in Europe at retail, wholesale and industry levels. Why is this a bit of a disaster? One reason is the fact that Google, Microsoft, etc., cannot build their data centres here so if we are looking at the future of the country, we can see that they are moving. Let us be really clear. The next thing is that there are incredible levels of fuel poverty across the country and Ireland cannot build the infrastructure needed in the electricity space. Why do I say that? Why do I go back to balcony solar and plug-in solar? It is because they are part of the solution. If we want to decarbonise and reduce costs, we allow the customers to do that. I have a plug-in battery system and solar system in Germany. The reason I put it in is because I have a year and a half payback by putting in this system. By the way, it is not registered. I am being really honest with the committee; it is not registered. I will tell the committee what I did the other day. I put a battery beside it. I went to Lidl and bought a battery for \u20ac200 and suddenly I have got a solar and battery system, which is not negatively affecting the power system because I am using that power myself within the system, and I am doing that at half the price of buying it from my local utility. It is the exact same thing in Ireland. Why is this important?  If I was a politician in Ireland, I would put in place a funding system for balcony solar and plug-in solar across the country. I would say to people that they can have funding for the next six years. These people are saving \u20ac200 per year by doing this. I would win all the rural voters because they can put them in their gardens. I spoke about fuel poverty, which involves people who do not have houses in the country. They can use these balcony solar systems and can move with them. They can put them in their flat and move with them to their next flat. That is what one does to bring down the cost of power. One involves the consumer in it. The second thing that happens when one puts all this solar in the system is power prices go down. Wholesale power prices go down, which in turn is very good for the likes of Microsoft, etc., which need that power faster than Ireland can deliver. I thank the committee for giving me the time to talk. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pa Daly  I thank everyone for their contributions. Mr. Reid mentioned what politicians should do. Does he think that the State should meet upfront costs and do a split with consumers and householders in respect of giving them solar? There has been talk from a number of contributors this morning that in effect, one would need \u20ac10,000 to put in rooftop solar. It is very expensive and people on lower incomes are, in effect, excluded from it. It is like electric cars where one third of the grant money went to people who were buying cars worth \u20ac55,000 or more so it became a form of wealth transfer.  Regarding Mr. Reid's suggestion, this committee is also looking at the State possibly investing as governments in Montenegro and other countries have done. I am not sure if Mr. Reid is familiar with this. In these countries, the state gave money to householders and the householders then kept 50%. Householders got money back, money goes into the grid and household bills, which are the primary motivation, go down. Yes, it can ease pressure on the grid and meet our climate obligations but reducing energy bills, which are increasing year on year, is also important. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Gerard Reid","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Gerard Reid  Let us talk first about the cost of balcony solar. My system in Germany cost me \u20ac400. In terms of the payback and the energy savings on that, it is a year and a half. At that level, once people understand----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pa Daly  That you are making your money back after a year and a half? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Gerard Reid","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Gerard Reid  I get my money back after a year and a half. I put the battery alongside it and I have a two-year payback instead of a year and a half. My other house is in Berlin, which has very similar solar radiation to south Wicklow. In other words, electricity prices are the same so the Deputy can see where I am coming from. There are really low paybacks for that and people can do this themselves when they understand that there is an opportunity. One has to educate people. That is the first thing.  If we really want to do this properly, in terms of getting in batteries and whatever, I would get the ESB involved. I would say to the ESB it has a customer here, suggest that it put in the solar system and the battery there and it will be financed over the savings. In other words, it is like if one is saving \u20ac100 per year and the system costs one \u20ac300, one does financing over five years and it is put on the balance sheet of the ESB. The ESB is then allowed to control the batteries because we would like those batteries to be used for the good of the system. This is called virtual power plant. My battery in Germany is already used like this so technically it is possible. What this does is lower the cost of electricity to the rural public and it can be done pretty quickly. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pa Daly  One in ten households in Germany already has some sort of plug-in solar. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Gerard Reid","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Gerard Reid  They already have solar. The thing about plug-in solar, and Mr. Morris knows this better than me, is that once people know about it, they put it in. I mentioned earlier that my system in Germany is not registered. Why is it not registered? It is because the grid operator cannot see what I am doing so why would I bother registering? That is why Mr. Morris said we have to incentivise people to register. We should do a much more controlled roll-out of balcony solar, rather than letting it be chaotic. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pa Daly  What were the concerns raised before the system became well known in Germany and have they turned out to be true? The concerns could relate to safety or the need for a permit. My understanding is the ESB is satisfied that there is no need for a permit. What were the concerns and how were they overcome in Germany to accelerate this? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Craig Morris","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Craig Morris  The concerns were basically the same. It was a long process. We had the law before we had the standard. We had a growing market and were the first movers. I think Ireland will be a second mover. You can look at countries like Germany but you do not have to copy everything it did. You could also take a look at some of the things that Germany did not quite get right. There are other places you could look at. I will go back to something Mr. Reid has mentioned.  This is also something Germany has not really done. If you have a scheme where you say you will roll out these kits to low-income households, that could pay for itself on a rolling basis. You could say we are going to give away these systems to maybe 50,000 households per year. The households do not benefit right away from lower prices, but there is software you can get that will monitor the payback of these systems. When the systems have paid for themselves, that money can go back into this pot and you can install further systems with that. After this payback period, the people who benefit from these kits they got for free can then start benefiting from lower prices.  We pitched this idea to the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero, DESNZ, in the UK because it was worried about fraud. If you try to subsidise something and install it, then people can sell it a few months later. It asked how it could prevent this. Under this scheme, the actual benefits do not start until the system has been paid off, so they have kept it for several years. Then, if they sell it they are just forgoing their lower power prices. This is one way you can have a limited budget and, over a number of years, more or less reach all of your low-income households. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ciar\u00e1n Ahern","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ciar\u00e1n Ahern  I thank all of our witnesses. There is a lot of enthusiasm for this new technology in political circles. I am sure they can get a sense of that. I am not sure if the witnesses heard the previous session, but we would love to get this rolled out sooner rather than later. It seems there is a tension between speed versus risks here. One of the risks that ESB Networks outlined in its opening statement was that the existing wiring in a customer's home may not be suitable for the introduction of bidirectional power flows. Having brushed up on my leaving certificate physics in the previous session, I believe there is a difference between how our houses and maybe those in the UK are wired versus how it is done in Germany. Maybe bidirectional power is easier here or our homes are more suitable than German homes for that. Be that as it may, how would a customer in Ireland know that their home may be at risk by installing a plug-in solar panel like this? Is ESB Networks looking at any of that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Nicholas Tarrant","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Nicholas Tarrant  I will recap our role in ESB Networks. Our role is as distribution system operators, so it goes as far as the customer's meter. We are looking for visibility of the export, going back to Mr. Reid's comments, to be able to manage the network outside where there is export. That is part of the existing regime for microgen. The working group has identified certain technical points that need to be progressed and that is being done on a multi-agency basis. We do not have a role on the wiring standards. There are different parties involved, as we highlighted in our opening statement. We are working with them so that everybody can progress with their specific roles to make progress here.  I will start with Germany. I am far from an expert on what happened in Germany. It was over a number of years that some of these questions were addressed about the technical aspects or the registration and so on. For us, there is maybe more of a parallel with the UK. The ongoing consultations closed there at the end of June. I know the department over there has also published a technical report we are studying, which deals with some of the questions the Deputy has. This is quite dynamic. It is building on the lessons and insights from Germany and moving on to take those on board and move forward. There will be specifics, and Ms Cody might comment on the working group. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bevin Cody","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Bevin Cody  The working group was convened at the end of May. It met twice in June and will meet again on 23 July. The reason it is meeting on 23 July is because the UK consultation on product specifications closed on 30 June. The Government is due to respond to that on 22 July, so the working group will get back together on 23 July to look at the outcome. One of the considerations in that is how the customer is going to know whether the existing set-up in their home is suitable for plug-in solar. Do you require the customer to take responsibility for that or are there other checks and balances that need to be put into the systems? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ciar\u00e1n Ahern","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ciar\u00e1n Ahern  I thank Ms Cody. I turn to the registration process. One of the benefits being sold for plug-in solar is that you can pick it up from the middle aisle, bring it home, plug it in, use it and benefit immediately. The witnesses mentioned a simple online process for customers to register their compliant products. I like the idea of the incentivisation they have in Germany. That seems to make a lot of sense. I query how they might reach elderly people or those who are not tech savvy. Have they thought about that or have they got that far in the process? Also, what is the risk to the network if registration is not done? Will they explain why registration is so important? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Nicholas Tarrant","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Nicholas Tarrant  We have been looking at simplifying the registration process to make it as straightforward as possible. Again, we may take insights from Germany and our existing process for the larger microgen units going on rooftops today. We might make it as simple as possible. For specific customer groups like elderly people and so on, it is fair to say we have more thinking to do to make sure it is as inclusive as possible. I will ask Mr. Rossiter to speak to the types of things we look for in terms of the overall network. I take Mr. Reid's comment about whether it is important to us if there is limited or no export from a particular unit. We will set the scene about the broader point on export onto the network in general, particularly at low voltage. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Alan Rossiter","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Alan Rossiter  The main area we look at from the DSO perspective is that, when the grid is disconnected from the premises, no flow of electricity can come from the property, in the interests of safety for our workers. There is a standard that covers that, EN 50549, that all current inverters and solar would comply with. Most devices comply with that. Within that standard there are various settings that cover overvoltage on the network, undervoltage and things like frequency, etc. The purpose of that is because the grid is common to all customers at that level. It is to make sure that other customers connected to that system get the same quality of supply as is mandated in our distribution code, so we can continue to provide the quality of supply within the specifications. It is fair to say that, individually, these devices are unlikely to pose any issues for the grid, but in aggregate they can pose issues we may need to look at in the context of bringing forward investment and upgrading the network, etc. It is in the aggregate that we need visibility of what is being connected rather than the individual necessarily. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Noonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Malcolm Noonan  I thank the witnesses. It would seem from the previous session and this session that it is not just about energy poverty but energy democracy. It is literally about giving power back to the people. There is a really good Maynooth University report on that democratisation of energy. I think that is critically important to try to address the serious fuel poverty challenges many families are facing.  I go back to the battery storage question. The prices in Belgium are \u20ac800 for a 2 kWh and \u20ac1,200 for a 4 kWh. It is reasonable. In the previous session with the Department, it said it was looking at the two issues of plug-in solar and batteries separately. There might be a sequencing on the battery storage. Will the witnesses explain the rationale behind that because I think we should be deploying all of it together? The storage is critical to it, especially the ability to use the power at peak times. That is for ESB Networks first, and the others might have a view on it as well. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Nicholas Tarrant","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Nicholas Tarrant  When the Minister wrote to us, the first phase was to look at solar deployment in the first instance for self-consumption. A phased basis is what I expect to happen. We will deal with solar first and follow on with batteries. If we look at the broader picture around batteries, we are seeing a huge deployment of them in general already in the system, whether they be large utility-scale batteries, where there has been huge growth in the past two or three years with more to happen, right down to domestic users who are putting in microgen under the existing regime as well as batteries alongside that. We are also potentially going to trial middle-sized batteries at housing development level, on which we have engaged with the Commission for the Regulation of Utilities. We plan to work with various stakeholders over the course of the next 12 months to deploy that. There is a lot of activity happening around batteries, and with the price point, they have potential. The first phase was to introduce solar, subject to the points we made in our opening statement and which the committee heard in the previous session. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Do batteries and panels go together or in sequence? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Gerard Reid","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Gerard Reid  To go back to what I said earlier, the revolution taking place because of solar and batteries is off the charts. I will give the example of a very practical project I am involved with. It is a project in Portugal and we are combining batteries, solar, wind and some hydro. That is where we are going with all these projects. We are combining these technologies with storage and the reason we are doing it is economic. The most economic option is batteries behind the meter because if I am in front of the meter, in other words I am in a wholesale market, I am playing against a \u20ac50 per MWh price. While I am behind the meter, I am paying 30 cent for electricity and I can install these systems at ten or 12 cent. That is the revolution that is going on.  Across the Continent, I see utilities blocking these technologies coming to market because it is bad for their business, to be honest. What we mean by that is really simple. If I put solar and batteries in my home, I am buying less electricity from the grid. That is first and foremost. We have to change that attitude, and I hope Ireland does that, to realise we should use these as resources to bring down the cost of electricity and think about things in a different way. All of the technologies are there.  I do a lot of work with Google and Microsoft which are at the forefront of this. They want to do the best of the environment as well, but they want power. We need to begin to think a little bit differently and realise that the speed of technology change is something we have never experienced before. That is what I see every day. Costs keep going down. I came back from Italy last night and there is a company I am with in Italy that is doing 24-hour storage for Google data centres in the US. That is where we are going from our point of view. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Craig Morris","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Craig Morris  To underscore what Mr. Reid just said, this is an area where Ireland could move faster than Germany. What it needs to have is plug-in batteries which run not to optimise the consumption of solar power behind the meter but to support the grid. Ireland could also have these batteries hooked up in households that are on the north side and do not have solar. We talked about that in the last session. It is also about people who have shaded facades. If we give them this option, they will be able to invest in the batteries which can run in grid support mode and we will then have the effect where we will not need so many power lines to be extended. The need for grid-attached storage - we are not against grid-attached storage - will be reduced. These are systems people will pay for with their own money. As Mr. Reid said, the business case is there because we are talking about 30 cent retail instead of what it is in Ireland for wholesale - a fraction of that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Gerard Reid","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Gerard Reid  There is another case for storage. I live on the Polish border outside Germany. The reason I put in storage was because I want to back up power in case the grid were to be attacked by the Russians or something like that. It sounds crazy but that is what a lot of people in my village did. Why is this important from an Irish perspective? The reality is we have extreme weather. We have extreme sun now and extreme winds and people in the west of Ireland need back-up power. Guess what? We get back-up power with this. It is really simple. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Nicholas Tarrant","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Nicholas Tarrant  It is important to emphasise the role we have in the ESB networks. We are an independent, regulated part of the ESB. It is a networks organisation and we have no reason in any way to want to delay or stop the deployment of plug-in solar. Over the past few years we have helped to accelerate solar power in Ireland, like many other countries, to drive it forward. This another phase. We have identified a number of things which need to be done to have the right regulatory framework, but we do not have a role in selling electricity, which is important to clarify. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  That is noted. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"R\u00e9ada Cronin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy R\u00e9ada Cronin  I thank our witnesses for their presentations. I have a question for Mr. Morris. What is the lifespan of the plug-in solar panels and is there enough research around their standard of safety maintained throughout their lifespan? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Craig Morris","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Craig Morris  If members can look at the building behind me, those are all solar panels. They address the question of what they will look like and whether there is a satellite dish issue. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"R\u00e9ada Cronin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy R\u00e9ada Cronin  I was going to ask that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Craig Morris","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Craig Morris  Those are standard solar panels. We have a unified look. These are glass solar panels, the standard kind used in a field or on a rooftop. They generally have a 25-year warranty. The micro inverters, which is the other major component along with the cabling, have a shorter lifespan, I am going to say, generally, more like ten years. They will have to be replaced every decade or so. This technology is not a different kind of solar but rather a different size that allows us in most cases to use a standard household socket. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"R\u00e9ada Cronin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy R\u00e9ada Cronin  The price of electricity in Ireland was mentioned, and I know Germany is along the same spectrum in terms of the cost. Have people noticed? Is this selling itself? Have customers noticed the reduction in electricity prices? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Craig Morris","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Craig Morris  This market over here exploded in 2022 when Russia invaded Ukraine. Germany's gas supply dwindled overnight and, as a result, retail power prices went up by about 50% that summer. People were looking for solutions. Whether this is measurable, I think I understand the Deputy\u2019s question as whether this is measurable and can we say it has reduced retail rates by 3% or something like that. I do not think anyone has tried to disentangle all of the other effects from this. Certainly, for the households which have south-facing units that are not in the shade, these are not major investments by and large. We are not talking about a huge amount of electricity like we might with a rooftop, where you can go in the direction of 100% of your supply, or maybe even more to charge your electric vehicle. I would put payback at at least \u20ac100 a year and, as other people have mentioned, it can go towards \u20ac200 a year in the best cases. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"R\u00e9ada Cronin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy R\u00e9ada Cronin  Mr. Reid mentioned payback is a year and a half. Am I right in thinking that it might be slightly longer in Ireland? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Gerard Reid","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Gerard Reid  It depends where you are in Ireland. If you are in Wexford, it is really good. Obviously, the further north you go, the worse it is.  I want to make a point: it is so easy to install. I have it in my back garden in Germany and I just move it around. It is so simple to do. I will be honest and say to everyone in the room that I will have one here too, and they will not know I have it. To go back to the regulation process, that is why it is important to regulate it. They need to keep the grid open and keep visibility on it. I would say to the members that they need to make sure it is done in a really intelligent way. Mr. Morris made the point that Germany has done a lot of good stuff. It was among the first movers on this but it has been a bit chaotic in terms of how it has rolled it out. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"R\u00e9ada Cronin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy R\u00e9ada Cronin  I have a question for Mr. Tarrant, whose attendance of this committee is better than some of the actual members. He mentioned the risk of thermal overloading.  Has ESB Networks done any research into the fact Mr. Morris mentioned? How legitimate are the witnesses' concerns about that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Nicholas Tarrant","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Nicholas Tarrant  What we tried to summarise in our opening statement are not necessarily concerns specific to ESB Networks. This is part of the working group that is working on this and that involves a number of agencies. If you look at some eminent institutions that have commented on this, including as part of a consultation in Britain, and the report on this, these are questions that have been raised about this type of implementation. The report that has recently been published in Britain, also by the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero, has highlighted some areas that need follow-up around the technical standards and those kinds of issues. As I mentioned earlier, our role stops at the meter, going back to the point about visibility, but we wanted to highlight these technical issues that have come up, as part of the working group, that now need to be resolved, taking the various inputs. Germany has led the way, but even the report that was published by the department in the UK has highlighted that there is not a direct read-across. There are lessons from Germany but there are some technical differences that need to be considered. That is all part of the work. In fact, as Ms Cody mentioned, depending on the age of the house, the wiring etc., there are probably considerations that need to be factored in as part of that. How you advise customers to consider that and the technical standards are all part of the work that needs to be resolved over the coming period. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Whitmore  I thank the witnesses. This is a really interesting discussion. This is my second term in the D\u00e1il. Last term there was a real missed opportunity when it came to solar benefits for households. There was very much a focus on retrofitting, which is in itself very important, but the whole idea of people being able to manage their own energy and, indeed, make their own energy is really important. That is only through solar in many regards, so it is great that we are having this conversation. My understanding is that the Government seems to be moving and is certainly more open to solar and so on.  What I am probably most excited about in these conversations, though, is the discussion about batteries. We have had discussions here but they have been more about industrial batteries. What we have not done in this country is really look at the potential of that aggregate battery use, whether it is batteries on individual homes or using our cars as batteries. The potential for that is enormous. I have just recently introduced a Bill that would make the Minister utilise the wasted renewable energy. Some \u20ac500 million a year is wasted because we have wind farms that are switched off through constraint and curtailment issues. If we manage to get this right, with people plugging in their cars at night, creating that demand on the system and having batteries at home that were creating that demand on the system, we would not have that huge level of wastage.  What I am interested to hear, then, particularly from our international experts here, is what is being done in other countries. My understanding is that in Germany there is a move towards people using their electric cars and being paid to essentially absorb energy from the grid and then release it during the day at peak times. I am not sure if that is a hundred per cent correct, but I would be interested in hearing about that and what Mr. Reid is seeing internationally in this regard. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Craig Morris","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Craig Morris  This is actually not really in the area of plug-in because you have to think about how big the car is and how much electricity we are talking about. A plug-in storage unit will be maybe 2 kWh or 5 kWh, whereas a car probably starts at 50 kWh. The Deputy is correct, though, that Germany has implemented smart meters that allow the grid operator to control when the car charges. This can be overridden but it would have to be overridden. If you are taking a trip and you absolutely need your car to charge, you can flip the switch, so to speak, and your car will charge. Otherwise, you plug in your car at night, and by the time you need to go to work the next day, it has filled up with electricity based on whether or not there is an issue on the grid. That is correct. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Gerard Reid","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Gerard Reid  From the international perspective, again, I will tell the committee what I do in my German home. I am doing vehicle-to-grid already. I am in the industry and I know the people and so on, but I have overbuilt a solar system and a battery and I did plug-in solar in and around it. I am off grid, just to be clear. Now, you might say I am a bit mad, but if you are in South Australia today, you are not going on the grid any more because, basically, you can put in batteries and solar and a back-up diesel genset and you generate electricity at half the price you are buying it from the grid. I say that to give an example of the speed of change and what is happening in other countries.  If the Deputy is asking me what we have to do from an Irish perspective, you have to use all the resources around you, and batteries are the key technology to reduce wholesale power prices. Again, I do a lot of work in the battery space. I cannot use batteries in the wholesale market in Ireland, so guess what: gas sets the price all the time. That is very bad for all customers in the market. We have to enable batteries. We are going into what I will call the batterisation of the world. We will have batteries in every device in our homes. We have the beginnings of it already in digital devices, but if you can imagine LG or something like that selling you a white good, such as a refrigerator, it will have batteries in it. Why? Because it makes business sense for the company. It does batteries already and it can do energy services business models in and around it. You might say I am being mad. Octopus in the UK is doing this right now. Octopus allows you to have free charging on your car at the weekend. That is the innovation that is going on. The other thing that is happening is that battery prices continue to go down while performance keeps going up. If you had asked me ten years ago if we would electrify planes, I would say no way. Today I would say, look at Ukraine. About 75% of its drones are electric, and they are battery powered. That is the world we are in, so the speed of change is what I go back to. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Whitmore  Does Mr. Reid think, from looking internationally at what is happening, that we are very slow here in Ireland to roll this out and to look at innovative ways of doing it? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Gerard Reid","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Gerard Reid  I am totally with the Deputy, but it is not just Ireland; it is across Europe. Europe is very slow, and I think the real challenge going forward is the grid. It is not building renewables. We can do that It is changing how the grid is managed. That is the key because grid costs have gone out of control across Europe. I am speaking from the German perspective as well so I am not just criticising Ireland. You can see this everywhere, and we need to change the incentives to make sure that there is incentivisation to do the right things. When I hear another grid operator say to me, \"I'm going to build more grid\", I ask, \"Why? Why don't you just manage the existing grid you have in a better way?\" By the way, we have the tools to do this these days. That is where I am coming from. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Whitmore  I have a question for the ESB. The amount of money a semi-state needs to operate is derived from taxes, levies, standing charges and all that. I know this is all dictated by the fact that the CRU sets a lot of these, but if we get to a point where households are essentially off grid and they only really need the ESB infrastructure on an ad hoc basis, I assume that is part of ESB Networks' discussions about what kind of future that would look like for the ESB. Has it costed that? Has it had discussions about whether that would require taxes in a different manner, or income to be coming into Mr. Tarrant's organisation from government solely rather than being derived on a customer basis? Has it had those discussions? Is this something it is actively looking at? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Nicholas Tarrant","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Nicholas Tarrant  It is a very broad question but I will pick up on a few different dimensions to it. If you look at the drivers behind our investment plans at the moment, there are fundamental issues here that need investment. I am talking about investment in new transmission infrastructure and in the distribution network. What are the drivers of those? It is about connecting housing, for example, which is a critical issue, and that kind of investment in high-voltage infrastructure. There has been a huge amount of transmission investment to date, which has helped enable the connection of the wind farms and solar farms that are connecting, both historically and at the moment, and driven business connections and the whole area of decarbonisation, that is, electrification of----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Whitmore  I am surprised Mr. Tarrant has not mentioned data centres because I imagine they are the key driver of the requirement for grid enforcement.  In fact, in price review 6, PR6, shoring up of the grid for already contracted data centres was one of the main reasons for that \u20ac18 billion investment. Is that correct? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Nicholas Tarrant","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Nicholas Tarrant  It is not one of the main reasons. What we said in our PR6 business plan was that we allowed for the fact that there were already contracted data centres, as part of that, at that stage. Since then, an updated connection policy has been published by the CRU and there is the Government's large energy user action plan, LEAP, strategy, which is a plan-led approach. Since the publication of that connection policy by the CRU, we have engaged on that with industry, along with EirGrid.  On the point made about the changes that are happening with usage or self-generation by businesses or domestic customers, there is a project under way with and led by CRU, around the tariff review. This is something that has arisen, not only in Ireland but in other countries, to look at the implications of the difference between fixed costs on the network around investing, for the reasons that I have mentioned, versus the volume-driven costs, to look at what is the balance and how they should be allocated in a way that is fair from a customer point of view. There is a lot of change in the industry and this is something that definitely will be taken forward in the future. It is more sitting with CRU around that tariff review and we are inputting into that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Heneghan  I thank all of the witnesses for coming in today and I thank the Cathaoirleach for inviting everyone.  First, I thank the delegation from ESBN for engaging on plug-in solar usage and with meetings that I have had. I welcome its consultation in 2024. Before the delegation present came in here I congratulated ESBN, which I know is something that politicians do not do very often.  On the consultation and the technical concern about thermal overloading and power flows which have been mentioned, smart inverters are so small that one can fit into the palm of your hand. Smart inverters are also very intelligent pieces of hardware and software. Mr. Morris, who represents the German association, has just told the committee that they did not see an increased risk from plug-in solar. I understand from the previous correspondence that I have had with ESBN, about the difference between the plugs in Ireland and German plugs. With the hundreds of thousands of registered systems that operate in Germany, however, 4% of that country's electricity is generated by plug-in solar technology. Please correct me if I am wrong about that. If the problem has been solved in Germany, and in the first part of this meeting we heard from Department officials, can we not just look at what has been done in Germany and introduce it in this country in a month's time rather than in a year or two years' time? In a letter dated 21 May, ESBN has committed to a progress update before the end of July. I welcome that and wonder what is happening today? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Nicholas Tarrant","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Nicholas Tarrant  There has been engagement with a working group, as we have outlined. There are a number of parties to that. There certainly are lessons that we can take from the work that has been done over a number of years in Germany. Previously, we just mentioned the parallels with the UK consultation that is going on at the moment and its recent technical report was published in June. Those elements need to be factored in and discussed as part of the work of the working group with a view to agreeing a way forward in Ireland.  Our role, as a distribution system operator, goes up as far as the meter. There are other parties involved in what happens behind the meter. In my opening statement I reflected some of the discussion that has happened as part of the working group. I definitely think that there is room to move forward and get those issues addressed, over the coming period, with the co-operation of the various other agencies. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Heneghan  From an investment and market perspective, can Mr. Reid state what commercial opportunity is being delayed here? If Ireland legalises plug-in solar with battery storage, in conjunction with the \u20ac349 kit in Germany, what would this look like in terms of scale, cost reduction and consumer benefits to the Irish public? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Gerard Reid","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Gerard Reid  First, as we are electrifying everything, I am not worried about the electricity demand going forward. I am worried about how the hell are we going to supply that electricity. If we do not do balcony solar then it would be really bad for the Irish economy. It is bad for the customer because they still end up with this high-price electricity. It is also, without a doubt, bad for industrial policy because new industry will find it very difficult to come in here and the data centre guys - Google and those guys - will not build their next-generation data centres here and that is not good for the economy.  I wish to make it really clear that AI is the biggest industrial revolution in the history of mankind and if we miss that revolution then it is really bad. I want to say, as an Irishman, that Ireland missed the industrial revolution. Why? It was because Ireland did not have coal. An industrial revolution is a technology change and at the same time it is energy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Heneghan  We were under colonial rule then. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Gerard Reid","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Gerard Reid  We missed it. That is a disaster for our economy when you think of what happened in the 19th century. If we do not do it, then we are causing ourselves problems. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Heneghan  I welcome that.  Finally, I wish to say to Mr. Morris that I have read his statement and how one in ten households in Germany have already installed a plug-in solar system. The representatives of ESBN have told us that the registration system is being built. This morning, a Department official told us that its working group will submit a report in September. Can Mr. Morris tell us what he sees is the biggest hold-back from an Irish perspective? Does he think our current approach is correct? What would he advise the Department to do to roll out registration quicker? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Craig Morris","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Craig Morris  To be quite honest, the German registration system does not work. Fewer than half of the systems are registered. I can imagine a world in which we do not register these systems but there are benefits, which we have partly discussed here. One of them is simply being taken seriously by the grid operators, which is a good thing because then we do not have to fight them and they can try to integrate us in what they are doing. To also be quite frank, however, and I am speaking of the German DSOs and not the Irish ones, we have found that the DSOs are actually not that interested in us. They want the registrations but they are not fighting to get us involved in their pricing schemes. We are fighting for that. To a certain extent, maybe they do not know enough and that is one of the things that we have discovered. At least in Germany, the DSOs do not understand what is going on, on their own grids, enough to give us the price signals we need, at this point. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Heneghan  My last question on safety concerns is for Ms Cody. I welcome the ESBN's submission to the consultation in 2024. ESBN was honest and straight, and did not completely mislead the Department like other people did, in my opinion. Why are we of the opinion that Irish people are not able to listen to the direct instruction to not put five of them into a single extension lead but that German people are? I ask that because that is one of the concerns that has been raised multiple times. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bevin Cody","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Bevin Cody  In the context of the working group, that is not an assumption that has been made but it is a consideration around what level of risk do you put onto a customer, versus onto a systematic element. Obviously what we have at the moment is a system that ensures that the customer has the right system before he or she installs solar. On moving to a system whereby a customer can just go into Lidl, there is huge drive in the working group to make this possible and as simple as possible for customers but decisions need to be made----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Heneghan  For safety. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bevin Cody","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Bevin Cody  -----and there are recommendations to ensure that we keep people safe, yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Heneghan  Irish people are equally able to abide by rules, is what we are saying. Brilliant and thank you. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I wish to ask a couple of questions from my perspective. Mr. Morris, in his opening statement, mentioned that with plug-in batteries there seems to be more activity in Australia and the US \"than in Germany\". What does he ascribe that to? I would have thought that adding plug-in batteries was an obvious next step for Germany. Why has the adoption of that technology not progressed in Germany? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Craig Morris","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Craig Morris  Basically, Australia has focused on residential solar and now they have expanded it to batteries. There is also a subsidy scheme for that so it costs them money. That is something they are also discussing. The United States is not a single electricity market, at least not at a residential level.  In certain jurisdictions there are certain price incentives for that. Why we do not have it in Germany is probably a discussion for a different day. The important thing is we have succeeded this month in getting Germany to allow a more simplified smart meter. We do not have it yet but Germany has announced it will allow it. Some smart meter experts in Ireland will probably agree that Germany has the most complicated smart meters in the EU. This is for security reasons as the authorities did not want them to be hacked and wanted the grid operators, as mentioned before, to be able to control the charging of your car and maybe the operation of your heat pump. They tried to maybe do a little too much. A lot of households are never going to have EV charging at home. If you live in a building like mine, you cannot even park a car close to you. As such, a more simplified smart meter is probably the way to go, and that is apparently what Germany is finally going to start thinking about. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Mr. Morris mentioned the US incentives. That is subsidy of batteries, effectively, in parts of the US. Financial support for batteries is what has brought the US on. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Craig Morris","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Craig Morris  The Chair will be surprised that, despite my accent, I am more of an expert on Germany than I am on the US. My understanding is that in the US it is more a local pricing scheme than an outright government subsidy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I see. It sounds like the registration requirement is really about the ESB knowing who is on the grid and a little bit of concern about power in circumstances when the ESB thinks the grid is off but power is coming back through from microgeneration and putting its workers in potential danger. Is that really what it is about? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Alan Rossiter","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Alan Rossiter  It is primarily visibility on the grid so we can see the aggregate effect of this and bring forward any investment that is needed in order to keep the other distribution-connected customers within the quality of supply standards we are mandated to keep them within. That is first and foremost. There is a robust European standard, with anti-islanding protection, that keeps our workers safe. Also, in the event that these devices are connected to a plug top, when you unplug the plug it is the same piece that will stop the pins of the plug from becoming live. They are all the areas to look at. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I see. Just on Deputy Cronin's comments, we might seat Mr. Tarrant over here the next time he is here, on a once-off basis, to allow him to ask a few questions as he has been here so often. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Nicholas Tarrant","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Nicholas Tarrant  I look forward to it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  If Mr. Reid had a magic wand and there was one change he could make to the Irish grid - because a lot of it seems to be about the grid from his perspective - what would that be? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Gerard Reid","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Gerard Reid  Does the Chair want me to be provocative? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  You have the speaking time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Gerard Reid","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Gerard Reid  If the Chair wants me to be provocative, because he asked that question, I would change the team managing the power control room in EirGrid. That is what I would do, because they are way too conservative. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Conservative in what way? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Gerard Reid","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Gerard Reid  Conservative in how they manage the grid and what they do and do not do. The level of curtailment in the Irish grid is off the charts. We are spending \u20ac1 million a day by not using electricity that is produced. This is absolutely crazy. It is just bad management. I will give a more extreme example of it. How does Ryanair make its money? It does so by making sure the bloody planes are full. It is called capacity utilisation. The capacity utilisation on the Irish distribution grid is poor. It is not just the Irish grid, by the way. The way grids in general are managed is from an old world, and we have to change that. If I am asked how to do this, I would say we should change the regulatory environment. If I am asked how I would do that, I would say to ESB Networks that its job, rather than building out grid, which I know we need to do, is to increase the capacity utilisation of that grid from 30% and 35% and incentivise it in a completely different way to manage the grid. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  EirGrid. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Gerard Reid","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Gerard Reid  I am talking about the distribution grid and the bulk grid. You change the incentive to do that. That is what I would do. The one thing I would do in Ireland is change the incentive structures in and around the grid. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Some members have indicated they want to come back in. Each of them will have two minutes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Whitmore  I want to ask the ESB about something mentioned in the opening statement. It is possible - I raised this with the Department this morning as well - to get an electrician in and get them to oversee plug-in solar installation in a home. That is legal. Am I correct? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Alan Rossiter","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Alan Rossiter  It is subject to the device. It is possible to get in someone to put in inverters and battery systems that are approved for sale on the Irish market. I cannot speak for all devices but any devices that are approved for sale on the Irish market may be connected up by a registered electrical contractor. We operate the inform and fit for the microgeneration, which is a really straightforward process for these. They go to our website and within a few days they get the response. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Whitmore  Are there products on the market at the moment? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Alan Rossiter","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Alan Rossiter  Not on the Irish market, that I am aware of, but throughout the European market, there are products available. However, they would not be shipping with plug tops on them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Whitmore  There is a real opportunity here once the UK, which is ahead of us on all this, comes up with its standard and has products adhering to that standard. People will be able to bring plug-in solar from the UK and plug it in once they get an electrician to oversee it. That will be possible, legal and safe. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Nicholas Tarrant","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Nicholas Tarrant  I do not know if it is for us to say that we can put that overall umbrella on it because that is the work of the working group around product certification and approval through the likes of the NSAI, for example. Ms Cody might want to comment on that further. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bevin Cody","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Bevin Cody  I am not an expert on the wiring rules but the current wiring rules say you cannot have a generation set connected to a plug top. The installation of a conventional rooftop microgeneration system is considered a restricted electrical work and is, therefore, subject to an installer signing off on it. However, because plug-in solar devices are a consumer product and not considered a restricted electrical work, the current regulations and structures do not allow for that. As such, there are some complexities in relation to that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Whitmore  I just want to go back to the----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Very briefly. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Whitmore  This is really important, though, because the ESB said the following of plug-in: \"This process is currently available to customers wishing to install plug-in solar and storage devices but requires sign off by a registered electrical contractor.\" I am finding this is like trying to get through treacle. We need people to be able to access the benefits of solar. If it is possible to do, and people are willing to get an electrician and can afford to do that, we should be facilitating that. I am looking for a clear answer. Is it possible? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bevin Cody","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Bevin Cody  They would have to hardwire it in. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Whitmore  That would be the electrician. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Bevin Cody","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Bevin Cody  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Whitmore  Okay, so it is possible. They will be able to get something from the UK that will have that standard and they will be able to use that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  You will not be plugging it in. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Alan Rossiter","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Alan Rossiter  It would be hardwired. Provided the product is suitable for sale on the Irish market, it would have to hardwired in by the registered installer. We do not have any issues with that, provided it meets the various European standards that they seem to meet. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Nicholas Tarrant","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Nicholas Tarrant  Yes, there is a product standard piece as well, as part of it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Mr. Morris has his hand up. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Craig Morris","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Craig Morris  I will speak from the German perspective. Having an electrician involved for this will probably double the cost of the system. The electrician will cost as much as the kit. Germany does not have the capacity for this. The electricians are not sitting around waiting for tens of thousands of households and they are not interested in these small jobs anyway. We should not be trying to open up this avenue.  If I can mention one more thing about safety, Ireland could just go ahead and ban more than one unit per household. It is also not allowed in Germany. Just limit it to one. It can theoretically be done safely if you know what you are doing but these are do-it-yourself products, so just limit it to one unit and do not allow terminal strips to be used either. This is the German approach. I do not think Germans are that much different than the Irish, though the Irish are friendlier.  In both countries people do not want to burn down their homes, so we can rely on that. As I mentioned in my introduction, maybe we could just have some kind of an information campaign around this roll-out. We could get one-stop shops and little societal organisations involved to raise awareness about these issues. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Whitmore  There is a risk because if this happens in the UK - these are freely available in Northern Ireland - we are going to see people bringing them down to the South. They will be plugging them in, and there will not be any awareness. If we are too far behind what the UK is doing, there is a real risk with it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Gerard Reid","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Gerard Reid  Can I make a point? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Gerard Reid","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Gerard Reid  They are here already, and the Deputy does not know it. I had a client of mine this morning, he is Irish and living in Dublin. He took a German version over and just changed the plug. People do not know because they do not have the visibility. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Heneghan  I do not have one at home in my house either. Mr. Morris's referred in his opening statement to the systems. How are they enforcing the one-per-household rule in Germany? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Craig Morris","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Craig Morris  They are not enforcing it at all. They are not enforcing registration. They are not enforcing anything. These systems are too small. There are actually penalties for this kind of thing, and they are based on the size of the system. I think the penalty for an 800 W unit is something like \u20ac10. They are not policing this. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Heneghan  Should we continue to look at 800 W systems or should we be looking at 1 KW systems? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Craig Morris","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Craig Morris  Ireland should stick to 800 W systems. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Heneghan  What is Mr. Morris's reasoning behind that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Craig Morris","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Craig Morris  There are ways of going above 800 W. We take the safety issues seriously. I am not trying to maximise the system size under any conditions. The last thing we need is five homes burning down because of our technology. In studies and in the field in Germany, 800 W has proven to be a safe level. We are getting pushed by various groups to go up above that. There are ways of doing that. There are temperature monitors that can be installed, but people should just start off with 800 W and go from there. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Heneghan  I appreciate that as it is good to get clarity on it. I have been pushing for this for a while and have received a lot of push back. Critics say that a plug-in solar system can fall off a balcony but so can a flowerpot, and it will not save people \u20ac260 a year off their electricity bill. I have one more question, if anyone can answer it. What Deputy Whitmore said is true. It is the same thing with the native bee Bill. If we are going to try to stop people importing bees in Ireland, if someone brings bees into the North, a bee is not going respect an open border. Neither will people buying plug-in solar systems. How do we regulate, keep in touch with the UK and allow people to do this as safely as possible? Is there anything else the witnesses want to add? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Nicholas Tarrant","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Nicholas Tarrant  We are members of the Electricity Networks Association in Britain. All of the DSOs are part of that, including our sister company, NIE Networks. We are working closely. As I said in our opening statement, we are trying to work in tandem by getting the lessons from Germany as they are being applied in the UK. We are going to work hand in glove to try to make sure that when the regulations change in Britain, we are as closely aligned as possible with that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"R\u00e9ada Cronin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy R\u00e9ada Cronin  Mr. Morris mentioned that the apartment behind him has all of these blue things that are solar panels. I know from living on the Continent as well that building owners can restrict the colour of canopies or sunshades that householders can have. Is that a social apartment behind him? Does everyone in the apartment have to go to the same company, his company, to get those panels? He also mentioned that there is no registration system in Germany, but how did they manage to get everybody in those apartment blocks to use the same company? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Craig Morris","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Craig Morris  Most of the systems installed in Germany are in the back yards of single-family homes because nobody can tell them not to do it. This system is a building-wide project, and that is what we are seeing is necessary in these high-rise buildings. I do not believe that this is social housing. It is different in Germany. We do not really have proper social housing blocks. We give individual paybacks to people, regardless of where they live. This is a good way of addressing it. You can have building-wide projects. You can get a unified look. Yes, in Germany, the property owner can say what colour the panels can be. They cannot block you from doing it completely, but they can tell you to get a full black model, for instance, or they can roughly tell you the size that you should buy. There are certain rights that they have in order to have a unified look. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  We have come to the end of our second session. I thank all the witnesses for coming in. Mr. Morris is online, and I thank him for joining us today. We will put all of the witnesses' opening statements on our website for publication. We will now adjourn the meeting. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The joint committee adjourned at 2.56 p.m. sine die ."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Plug-In Solar Technology and Regulation: Discussion"}]}}]},"contextDate":"2026-07-15"},{"debateRecord":{"house":{"showAs":"Joint Committee on Disability Matters","committeeCode":"joint_committee_on_disability_matters","houseCode":"dail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/committee\/dail\/34\/joint_committee_on_disability_matters","chamberType":"committee","houseNo":"34"},"chamber":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/def\/committee","showAs":"Joint Committee on Disability Matters"},"lastUpdated":"2026-07-24T02:14:35+00:00","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/joint_committee_on_disability_matters\/2026-07-15\/debate\/main","formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/joint_committee_on_disability_matters\/2026-07-15\/debate\/mul@\/main.xml"},"pdf":null},"date":"2026-07-15","counts":{"contributorCount":11,"divisionCount":0,"debateSectionCount":1,"questionCount":0,"billCount":0},"debateType":"debate","debateSections":[{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/joint_committee_on_disability_matters\/2026-07-15\/debate\/dbsect_2","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Ageing Complexity and Health Needs of People with Intellectual Disabilities: Discussion","counts":{"speechCount":116,"speakerCount":12},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maurice Quinlivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Martin McMahon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gillian Toole","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gillian-Toole.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Gillian-Toole.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Margaret Murphy O'Mahony","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Clonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","memberCode":"Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Carrigy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Liam Quaide","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Laura Harmon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maurice Quinlivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Apologies have been received from Senator Bradley.  The purpose of today's meeting is to discuss ageing complexity and the health needs of people with intellectual disabilities. On behalf of the committee, I extend a warm welcome to Professor Mary McCarron, professor of ageing and intellectual disability and director of the Trinity Centre for Ageing and the Life Course in Intellectual Disability, and Dr. Martin McMahon, associate professor in intellectual disability nursing and the centre's associate director.  Before we begin, I will read a note on privilege and housekeeping matters, as I always do. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make her, him or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of that person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. The evidence of witnesses who are physically present or give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege.  I remind members of the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings, they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex.  I call Dr. McMahon to make the opening statement. He has five minutes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Martin McMahon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Martin McMahon  I thank members for the invitation to attend today\u2019s meeting of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Disability Matters to discuss ageing complexity and the health needs of people with intellectual disabilities. I am pleased to speak to the committee about evidence from the intellectual disability supplement to the Irish longitudinal study on ageing, IDS-TILDA. IDS-TILDA examines ageing among adults with an intellectual disability aged 40 years and above in Ireland. Since 2008, it has provided a unique national evidence base on how people with intellectual disabilities age, how their lives are changing and where health and social care systems need to respond more effectively.  The key message I wish to bring to the committee is that people with intellectual disabilities are living longer and, often, are enjoying aspects of their older years. However, many are also experiencing ageing, frailty, exclusion and complex health needs much earlier than the general population. These difficulties are not inevitable consequences of disability. Many reflect barriers in access, prevention, early diagnosis, treatment, rehabilitation, community participation and long-term planning.  IDS-TILDA shows progress. Many older adults with intellectual disabilities are socially connected, have close relationships with family and friends and are active in their communities. However, the evidence from five waves of IDS-TILDA also shows that many remain at risk of exclusion from the ordinary things in life that matter the most and people expect, such as education, employment, transport, technology, social participation and meaningful community involvement. Addressing this will require education and incentives for ageing-focused and other community resources to better include people with intellectual disabilities as they age.  Community living matters. Evidence from IDS-TILDA shows that people living in community settings have better outcomes than those in non-community settings, even when comparing people with similar levels of support need. Community living must be more than a change of address, however. It must be supported by increases in the availability of accessible housing, more available and reliable transport, more ageing-prepared staffing and skill mix, collaborations between intellectual disability and ageing service providers to ensure health and community services are inclusive, and opportunities to take part in life beyond Monday-to-Friday service hours.  Family care is increasing as we divert individuals from formal care. It is also becoming increasingly complex. In the IDS-TILDA family carers study, just over one half of respondents were parent carers, all of whom were aged over 66. Some were over 86 years of age. As parents age or die, care often transfers to siblings, many of whom are themselves older adults. Approximately one third of carers reported financial struggles. Carers were predominantly women, and many had limited help and low satisfaction with access to respite. Family care is, therefore, a long-term and, often, unsupported part of the system requiring greater State planning and support. As we depend more on families and encourage independent living in current and upcoming generations of people with intellectual disabilities, there is a need for sustained and dedicated supports for people continuing to live where they have always lived and to sustain family caring, where desired.  Additionally, there is a need to develop innovative models of care that support people to age and live with dignity where existing care settings are no longer able to provide safe, appropriate and comfortable care.  The healthcare evidence is equally clear. Adults with intellectual disabilities experience frailty at much younger ages. IDS-TILDA data shows that adults aged between 50 and 64 can have frailty levels comparable to people aged over 75 in the general population. They are also eight times more likely to transition from a non-frail to a frail state. Musculoskeletal health is another major concern. IDS-TILDA shows that more than 32% of adults with intellectual disabilities were objectively identified within the osteoporotic range and a further 29% within the osteopenic range, yet only 19% reported a formal doctor\u2019s diagnosis. Over 60% had not received a dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry, DEXA, screening. This under-recognition has important consequences. Adults with intellectual disabilities experience substantially higher rates of falls and fractures than the general population, with around one in seven reporting a fragility fracture and falls occurring at rates typically seen decades later in the general population.  Mobility is central to independence and inclusion. IDS-TILDA evidence shows that over 45% of participants reported difficulty walking 100 yd and nearly 32% had difficulty walking across a room.  Approximately 80% did not meet WHO-recommended activity levels. Public education, accessible activity sites and exercise programs adapted for people with intellectual disabilities are all needed.  Medication use also requires urgent attention. IDS-TILDA has identified continuing high use of psychotropic medication, including anti-psychotic medication. There have been some positive trends, including lower use among younger adults recruited in 2020 compared with those of the same age recruited in 2010. However, current policy focuses too much on medicines management and not enough on medicines optimisation. People need regular comprehensive medication reviews, appropriate de-prescribing where safe, and greater access to non-pharmacological supports, such as psychology, occupational therapy, social work, speech and language therapy and behavioural supports.  Dementia represents one of the greatest health challenges for an ageing population of people with intellectual disabilities. People with Down's syndrome are at particularly high risk of developing Alzheimer's disease decades earlier than the general population. Research from IDS-TILDA has directly informed the development of Ireland's national intellectual disability memory service, ensuring that people with intellectual disabilities have access to equitable, evidence-based dementia diagnosis and post-diagnostic support. There must be investment in making such access available across the country as well as in brain health initiatives, person-centred post-diagnostic care, necessary environmental modifications and care packages.  Oral health is one of the clearest examples of health inequity. IDS-TILDA shows higher rates of tooth loss and untreated dental disease among people with intellectual disabilities. People are more likely to lose all their teeth, and tooth loss is associated with wider health risks, including nutrition, communication, dignity and infection risk. Specialist care and incentives for inclusion in the widest therapeutic options are necessary.  Women with intellectual disabilities also need much stronger policy attention. IDS-TILDA data has shown they experience poorer health across physical, behavioural, mental, sexual and reproductive health domains. Menopause may occur earlier, yet many women receive little accessible information and may be unprepared for this transition. More specific attention to their health needs and the needs of the health sector is needed, along with specialist support from and training for health professionals.  Cancer is another significant area of concern. Across IDS-TILDA, cancer is not frequently diagnosed, yet it is one of the leading causes of death recorded on death certificates. This raises serious questions about under-recognition, late diagnosis, barriers to screening, unequal access to cancer services and limited survivorship supports. Targeted programmes for cancer prevention, identification and treatment are needed.  Despite, or perhaps because of, the challenges, this is a timely moment, as Ireland holds the Presidency of the Council of the European Union, to place the ageing, health and inclusion of people with intellectual disabilities firmly within national and European policy priorities. First, we need disability-appropriate prevention, screening and early intervention across the life course. Second, mainstream health services must become genuinely accessible. Third, family carers need planned, reliable and funded in-home supports, including respite and future care planning, before crisis occurs. Fourth, community living must be backed by inclusive services that promote and maintain health, housing, transport, staffing, digital inclusion, education, employment and social participation.  To achieve Ireland's goals for improvement and to measure progress effectively, continued investment in IDS-TILDA is essential. This should include enrolling participants from a much younger age and developing inclusive data systems that capture experiences across the life course. Without data, people with intellectual disabilities remain invisible in policy and in the delivery of interventions designed to improve health, quality of life and participation. With data, we can identify inequities, track whether policy is working and design services that support people to age with dignity, safety, health and full participation in their communities. I thank the committee and look forward to members' questions. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maurice Quinlivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank Dr. McMahon. We will publish the opening statement to the committee's website. Is that agreed? Agreed. We will move to questions from committee members. All members will have seven minutes and, as they know, this includes their questions and the answers. There is a rota in place. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gillian Toole","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gillian-Toole.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Gillian-Toole.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Gillian Toole  Professor McCarron and Dr. McMahon are very welcome. I thank them for their opening statement and the overall work that IDS-TILDA does and has done over the past 20 or more years. It is invaluable to the healthcare sector. I also thank the secretariat for the briefing notes.  I have quite a few questions. Perhaps I will list them off. I am looking for an expansion of what was covered in the opening statement. Dr. McMahon mentioned incentives for ageing-focused and community resources. Perhaps he would expand on that.  How frequently do State agencies, for example but not limited to the HSE and the County and City Management Association, CCMA, seek information from IDS-TILDA for forward planning?  Dr. McMahon also mentioned the need to develop innovative models of care to support people to age and live with dignity. What are the innovative models of care and how might they differ from others?  On medication and medicines optimisation, the new community pharmacy agreement has a particular focus on medicines optimisation. Is IDS-TILDA linked in with the Irish Pharmacy Union from a continuing professional development, CPD, and research provision perspective?  Also in the area of healthcare, needle aversion and needle resistance are prevalent among people with various intellectual disabilities. Is capillary blood-testing something that IDS-TILDA would look at or be familiar with? Is there provision of information in that regard to the HSE?  This is more of an opinion. There is a recurring theme at the committee that there is an absence of data and its use for forward planning. That seems to be the biggest impediment to meeting our obligations under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, UNCRPD. You cannot manage what you cannot measure. The witnesses may have opinions. I realise there may not be enough time for all of that. Perhaps they would take note of the questions I have asked in case we have a second round. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Professor Mary McCarron","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Professor Mary McCarron  I will take the question about innovative models of care. I thank the Deputy for her questions.  There is no denying that the move from congregated settings to community settings has been warmly welcomed. We never want to go back to an institutional model. However, we have people who are ageing in communities and are struggling to do so, perhaps in a house with five other people. The level of activity is often defined by the person at the lowest level of need. If Mary does not go to the cinema today, nobody goes. This is increasingly challenging.  Oftentimes, the only option or the response to those people is that they need to transfer to a long-stay nursing home, which is often bigger than the institution they left in the first place. We know from people with intellectual disabilities and the work we have been doing across the sector that this is not a model we are looking for. We need to look at what ageing village-type communities might look like and what a retirement model might look like for people so that they can age within their communities but at a smaller scale where they can get intensive supports.  There are perhaps other people with very complex needs. They may have severe mental health concerns and behaviours of concern that may need additional specialist-type supports. We need something in the middle. Many parents are struggling because they are unable to get the support they require. Oftentimes, care is only addressed when there is a crisis. When that crisis happens and a family member dies, not only does the person with an intellectual disability lose a parent, he or she also often loses the family and the whole community structure. We need much more planning and places for people to go. We all know there is a considerable lack of residential placements or housing for everybody. People with intellectual disabilities are very often much further down the pecking order when it comes to housing. We have a different type of homelessness for this population. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Martin McMahon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Martin McMahon  One of the greatest challenges, and I think it speaks to many of the Deputy's questions, is data and how frequently organisations, such as the HSE, come looking for data. We work closely with the Department in identifying the ageing and changing needs to people with intellectual disabilities to help them forward plan. We cannot escape the fact that those who are known to services and are visible are the minority of people with intellectual disabilities who live within society. There is a cohort of people who we do not know about. There is a cohort who are unrepresented. The challenge with disability data in Ireland is that it is very hard to identify people with intellectual disabilities and to be able to link that to other different datasets and be able to look at the trend of needs and changes there.  That is a real challenge to the data infrastructure in Ireland. That speaks to a number of questions.  Regarding medication, which was another question that was asked, what we see with people with intellectual disabilities is that they experience high levels of polypharmacy - hyper-polypharmacy. Some of that is appropriate to their needs. As we highlighted in our opening statement, some of it is inappropriate, particularly the high use of psychotropic drugs and anti-psychotic medication. Regarding the policy landscape for the provision of medicines usage or optimisation in Ireland, it very much focuses on safe prescribing, storage and management. However, we need to start looking at optimisation. Are the drugs being prescribed appropriate? If they are appropriate, should we start looking at de-prescribing where appropriate? We take a fuller view of side effects and so on. Policy does not reflect that at the moment. It focuses very much on the process of medication management rather than the person centredness of medicines optimisation for people with intellectual disabilities.  That is a very valuable point that the Deputy raised on the community pharmacists. There is a role for that to support people with an intellectual disability as they are supported to manage their medicines. At the moment, what we are seeing is a different trend in medicine usage. We are starting to see the trends. The community pharmacies can be appropriate. There were questions regarding incentives. As people with an intellectual disability represent 1% to 3% of the population, they are a very small and typically invisible population. When there are public policies and strategies, there needs to be visibility and that they are not just captured in terms of a potentially vulnerable population but are also called out and recognised in policy. They need a framework to support their needs. That is the probably greatest incentive that is needed there. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Professor Mary McCarron","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Professor Mary McCarron  To follow up on what Dr. McMahon said, health screening for this population needs to start at an earlier date than we see, perhaps, with the general population because we are seeing complex health concerns. That is why we are looking to have a much more life course approach. We need to recognise that Ireland now has the best data in the world, through IDS-TILDA, on the ageing of people with intellectual disabilities. People are looking to Ireland because we have that data. We need to enrol people at a much earlier age because many of the issues we are seeing are a reflection of earlier lifestyle and life opportunities. That is an issue. Our move is that we have a research and policy steering committee with the disability consultative committee, DCC. That has been very positive. We work very closely with the HSE. We have a lot of shared sessions. That is very valuable in terms of the relevance of this data and what it means for policy. We can monitor. That is something positive that we also need to recognise. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Margaret Murphy O'Mahony","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Margaret Murphy O'Mahony  I welcome Professor McCarron and Dr. McMahon. I thank them for giving up their time to come into us, for their opening statement, and for the work that they do.  Ageing is a privilege denied to many. Along with ageing, it brings its own needs. For anyone with an intellectual disability, ageing is harder than it is for somebody who has not. I am very conscious of the carers who are ageing as well. I acknowledge the Before We Die organisation and the work it does. In an ideal world, where someone with an intellectual disability is ageing and their parents and carers are ageing, it would be great if there was a plan in place early for parents either getting unwell or passing on. The witnesses' evidence suggests that family carers are ageing, are often undersupported and are experiencing financial strain. What additional supports should be put in place to help families plan for the future and avoid a care crisis when parents can no longer provide the care and avoid a cliff edge when something happens? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Professor Mary McCarron","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Professor Mary McCarron  The Senator raises a very important question. I thank her for that. As I mentioned earlier, it is often a crisis. That is dreadful for everybody. There needs to be future planning. It needs to be embedded within the system. It is quite ad hoc at the moment. We need to look at future planning. We have developed a future planning toolkit to assist family carers to engage in planning. We need to roll that out nationally and assist families. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Margaret Murphy O'Mahony","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Margaret Murphy O'Mahony  Is that used? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Professor Mary McCarron","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Professor Mary McCarron  It is used, but not enough. It is not widespread. It is there and developed. It can be and should be helpful to people. We need options for families. Very often, there are no options. It is only when there is a crisis and people relinquish care, often in a way that they do not want, that they can get support. There needs to be respite and types of respite that suit the family. That may be in home or out of home, but it needs to be regular and available. There also needs to be residential type options should families wish that to be the case and if the person with a disability wishes to move out of home. It is no more than we wish for any of our children. There are times in our children's or adults' lives that is a transition. We should also aspire to and hope for that for people with an intellectual disability. It is future planning, respite and having more long-term care options and out-of-home options should people want that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Margaret Murphy O'Mahony","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Margaret Murphy O'Mahony  The witnesses highlighted significant health inequalities, especially in osteoporosis, dementia, cancer and oral health. What is the area of most urgency or are they all of equal urgency? If the Government were to intervene, what would the witnesses see that looking like? How would they see the success of Government intervention? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Martin McMahon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Martin McMahon  There are a number of areas of health that are important. I will touch on one of the answers we did not get to with Deputy Toole, which was the concept of reasonable adjustments. A lot of the time people with intellectual disabilities experience inequalities and inequities in the provision of healthcare because they are expected to conform to systems and processes for the general population. That can be a struggle. For example, cancer is a topic of research I am focused on in the area of intellectual disability. Internationally, it is consistent that people with intellectual disabilities develop cancer at earlier ages, have fewer treatment options or are afforded less treatment options, and die earlier in comparison with the general population. Cancer is a consistent area where people with intellectual disabilities experience significant inequities. If we take a look at the detection of cancer and how people are identified and look at the IDS-TILDA data, we see one of the main causes of death for people with an intellectual disability is cancer. Yet people could have been enrolled in IDS-TILDA over five waves and they may never have told us they had a diagnosis of cancer. That is not to say that, after they were enrolled in our study, they were diagnosed with cancer and died. It shows us that the timeframe from diagnosis to death is very short. That is consistent.  How can we make improvements? Screening is one option. Regarding improving the uptake of cancer screening, we have a successful national cancer screening programme in Ireland. Cervical screening uptake in Ireland is one of the highest in the OECD. There are lots of explainable reasons that is the case. For people with an intellectual disability, it is significantly lower. Typically, what we see is that people with an intellectual disability are not afforded the same opportunities for health surveillance and ongoing health management. There are a lot of reasons for that. Historically, it is about the way services were provided. We have an unusual delivery of disability services across Ireland. That is a legacy of how religious organisations provided care for people with an intellectual disability and how the State provided care for people with an intellectual disability.  Historically, people who lived in larger settings had access to doctors weekly, and to psychiatry, psychology, occupational therapy and all the other therapies. People with intellectual disabilities are now expected to be supported to access general health services, which is right, but they do not have the reasonable adjustments to support them to do that. If somebody with an intellectual disability needs support to access cancer screening but cannot do that, it may lead to a later diagnosis. If the person has difficulty self-reporting a complaint, be it pain or something else, it may take longer to access the GP, and so on.  Much of the time, the services are available but the adjustments to support people to access those services are not. Since they comprise a small proportion of the population, at 1% to 3%, they are frequently invisible to mainstream services. Cancer is one example. Tooth loss, which we talked about, is another. This involves a clear inequality. If we look at IDS-TILDA data for people with intellectual disabilities, we note that the level of inequity they experience by comparison with the general population is evident. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Clonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","memberCode":"Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Tom Clonan  Good morning and welcome to my colleagues from Trinity and, probably, my constituents. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  Canvassing. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Clonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","memberCode":"Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Tom Clonan  I apologise because I am going to have to leave after this to attend a meeting of the health committee.  The key to all of this is being able to quantify the issues. I thank the witnesses for the extraordinary work they have done. I have attended many events, seminars and presentations in Trinity, so I am very much aware of the invaluable work they do.  To echo some of the comments my colleagues made, Before We Die tells us there are 55,000 adults with intellectual disabilities over the age of 25 living at home with parents who are in their 60s. They have been cared for by their parents. Although it involves a physical disability, I will join that cohort in August. I care for a son who will be over 25 at that point while I will be over 60. According to Before We Die, there are 2,000 adults with intellectual disabilities living with parents over the age of 70. That means that in ten years' time, there may be 57,000 adults with intellectual disabilities living at home with parents in their 70s. Is that a demographic time bomb? I am sorry to use tabloid language. Based on the witnesses' research, can they see any evidence that the Government is preparing for the time bomb and putting the infrastructure in place? As the witnesses put it, we warmly welcome decongregation, whereby people can age in the community with intensive support. Do the witnesses detect any evidence that the Government is preparing for these 57,000-plus people?  In addition to the 57,000 adults with intellectual disabilities, there are probably an equal or greater number of adults with physical disabilities who will still be at home with parents who are in their 70s. That is the future for people like me and my son. How would the witnesses characterise that? What language would they use to describe it, and can they see any evidence of meaningful preparation for it?  My second question is about what seems to be an assumption that disabled citizens are the responsibility of their ageing parents. The witnesses mentioned respite. I have never had any respite. We have never had any respite in the past 24 years, not a day of it. It does not exist in the community.  I recently met a group of consultants who work in the area of intellectual disability and who made a submission to me. Their advice to parents of children with intellectual disabilities who develop a mental illness, and there is often a lot of comorbidity, is to bring them to the emergency department and leave them there. The reason people are being overmedicated is that the required multidisciplinary teams do not exist in Ireland. There is only one team, and it operates as part of a pilot scheme in Cavan\u2013Monaghan. There is no coverage across the rest of the country.  We received a letter from the head of disability services in HSE South West stating parents are legally responsible for the care and support of their children until they are 18, or until they are 23 if they are in full-time education, but that if they have a disability, they are legally obliged to care for them until they die. Is the assumption that people with a disability will stay at home something the witnesses have found in their research?  I am aware that I have asked two long questions, but I imagine the answers are short enough. On the first one, on the demographic time bomb, what do things look like? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Professor Mary McCarron","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Professor Mary McCarron  When we go out and meet families, we hear it all the time. There is considerable concern about it, and I do not believe there is sufficient planning. As I mentioned earlier, there is a huge housing crisis. An actual event such as somebody staying in hospital and the family not taking the person home is often the only way to get care. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Clonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","memberCode":"Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Tom Clonan  Where do they end up? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Professor Mary McCarron","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Professor Mary McCarron  I have known people who were there for a number of months, and then----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Clonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","memberCode":"Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Tom Clonan  When Professor McCarron uses the word \"there\", does she mean admitted as an inpatient? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Professor Mary McCarron","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Professor Mary McCarron  They might be in a general hospital for months waiting to get a residential placement. I have known a family whose family member was in an acute hospital for nine months. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Clonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","memberCode":"Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Tom Clonan  I am a little confused. This is not directed at Professor McCarron, but the residential places do not exist. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Professor Mary McCarron","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Professor Mary McCarron  They do not exist. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Clonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","memberCode":"Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Tom Clonan  When Professor McCarron says they have to wait until they get a residential place, does she mean they are being put in nursing homes? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Professor Mary McCarron","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Professor Mary McCarron  Yes, indeed. They could be put in a nursing home. Very often, they may be put in a placement miles away from where the family lives. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Clonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","memberCode":"Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Tom Clonan  These are all findings, but what about conclusions? Taking findings like these, stark as they are, and benchmarking them against the hypothesised best way to deal with this issue or international examples, how would Professor McCarron characterise them? What word would she use to describe them? I would describe them as abject. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Professor Mary McCarron","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Professor Mary McCarron  We have to understand that we have a crisis when it comes to out-of-home placement. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Clonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","memberCode":"Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Tom Clonan  It is a crisis. I thank Professor McCarron.  On the question about the expectation that we, as parents, should take legal responsibility for caring for our disabled adult children until we die, is that expectation something the witnesses have come across? Is there any evidence that there is a legal basis for it? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Professor Mary McCarron","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Professor Mary McCarron  There is no evidence that there is a legal basis for that. We had the recent carers referendum and we know the outcome of that, but many people feel there is no way out. Therefore, we need to take an honest look at out-of-home placements. We need to understand what that is going to look like and plan for the 57,000 who we know exist. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Clonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","memberCode":"Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Tom Clonan  As the professor says, that is not happening. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Professor Mary McCarron","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Professor Mary McCarron  That is not happening because there is a crisis. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Clonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","memberCode":"Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Tom Clonan  We have had parents before the committee who said they hoped their adult children would die before they did. This is a thought that, shamefully, I have had myself. Would anybody in this room with beautiful children, such as my 22-year-old daughter, 18-year-old son who has just finished his leaving certificate and my eldest fellow, who is 25, wish any of them to die? Is there any other society in the world where people are told they have a legal responsibility to look after their children until they die and that, after that, there is a blank because it is not known what is going to happen to them? I am referring to the idea of wishing they would die. I understand the findings and the positivistic, quantitative realities, but how would the witnesses describe the phenomenological or qualitative aspect or the lived experience of people like me and my son? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Professor Mary McCarron","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Professor Mary McCarron  It is a tragedy. It is a tragedy for families who have done a lifetime of caring. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Clonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","memberCode":"Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Tom Clonan  The witnesses state that 1% to 3% of the population have an intellectual disability. It is said that the population of the State is now 5.2 million. That suggests we have between 50,000 and 150,000 citizens with intellectual disabilities. Based on the information from the Before We Die campaign, that means most of them are living at home with ageing parents. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Martin McMahon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Martin McMahon  The majority of people with an intellectual disability----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Clonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","memberCode":"Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Tom Clonan  Is that the situation internationally, or are we unusual in that regard? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Martin McMahon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Martin McMahon  No, it is quite similar with respect to people who are known to services. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Clonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","memberCode":"Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Tom Clonan  If I am in Germany and have an adult child with an intellectual disability, will that person be living with me until I die and then go into a nursing home? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Martin McMahon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Martin McMahon  I could not comment on Germany. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Clonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","memberCode":"Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Tom Clonan  I know that is not the case. They have what the witnesses described, which is that people should age in the community with intensive supports. I share the witnesses' view that we need that. It happens in other jurisdictions. It does not happen here.  I have a final question, if the witnesses will forgive me. When I did my research, the findings in relation to sexual violence and the systemic abuse of personnel in the Defence Forces were so stark.  I communicated those findings and conclusions very loudly because I felt there was an ethical imperative for me to signal this criminal behaviour. I experienced a lot of retaliation and a reprisal for that. We agree it is a tragedy and a crisis - I think it is abject. How are the witnesses communicating that to the principal stakeholders? Are they doing it with a sense of urgency? Are they knocking on the door every day and saying this is unacceptable? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Professor Mary McCarron","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Professor Mary McCarron  We are making a lot of efforts to try to work with the Department of Children, Disability and Equality and the policy research steering committee. There are regular meetings to update them. Briefs are also prepared in order that they can understand the data. It is important that those responsible for policymaking understand what the data and the evidence are saying. They have that data and they know that data. We closed the institutions, which was really positive, but we did not open up anything in between. We now have a situation where we have----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Clonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","memberCode":"Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Tom Clonan  Apart from contributing to the dissemination of knowledge, does the centre have a role in the area of advocacy? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Professor Mary McCarron","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Professor Mary McCarron  Our primary role is to produce the data, and then other people should be using that data. We will prepare the data in manners and suitable formats for multiple audiences to help them to understand the data. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Clonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","memberCode":"Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Tom Clonan  I thank the Professor McCarron. I really appreciate it.. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Carrigy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Miche\u00e1l Carrigy  I apologise for being late. I compliment the witnesses on the work they have done over a number of decades. I also compliment the centre on the courses that were put in place in Trinity and the Dundalk Institute of Technology. The latter were the first third level institutions to offer specific courses. I chaired the autism committee in the previous Oireachtas. We brought Dr. Hugo MacNeill and others before us, and we challenged the Minister of the day to provide courses across all universities. Eleven universities are now providing courses for children with intellectual disabilities and autism.  A review of the Disability Act is due. What proposals will the witnesses be submitting to the review in the context of changes they want made? Senator Clonan mentioned Germany. What other countries have types of best practice that should be replicated here? I chair the housing committee, and this is something we looked at. Senator Clonan referred to the Before We Die campaign. We need to build more accommodation that is specifically designed for persons with disabilities and care settings for people with intellectual disabilities. What proposals would the witnesses put to me, as chair of the housing committee?  There is also the issue of life expectancy in general. People are living longer, and that includes persons with disabilities. What changes do the witnesses feel we need to make to respond to that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Martin McMahon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Martin McMahon  One area that is fundamentally important is the fact that there is a legal right for people with intellectual disabilities to have full annual health assessments. That is a recommendation I would put forward. What we see in the UK is that anybody with a learning disability should have an annual health assessment. It is an entitlement. This speaks to the questions and some of the challenges that arise in that much of the time people with intellectual disabilities do not access primary care or GPs or have issues doing so. If we do not have a vehicle to support everybody with an intellectual disability to have a health assessment, their health needs are not going to be identified. In the context of ongoing surveillance, we can use cancer, oral health and all the other examples outlined in the opening statement, but if we do not have a process where people who are known to or are not known to services have a right to a yearly health assessment that is person-centred, holistic from head to toe and where the appropriate accommodations are put in place, then the position regarding the health needs of people with intellectual disabilities is not going to get better. They are going to disimprove. We are not going to be able to detect things earlier and then we will see the problems with, for example, cancer.  We talk about people with intellectual disabilities living longer. The level of complexity we are seeing now - this also speaks to Senator Clonan's point regarding the challenges that arise as people with intellectual disabilities age - is going to expand in the future with advances in healthcare and medicine. Some children are living with complex needs from young ages. Historically, these children maybe did not survive into adulthood. They are now surviving into adulthood as a result of advances in care. We are going to see that. One parent said to me, \"Before, they did not think our children were going to grow up, but we are going to see that our children are going to grow up and are going to age with greater levels of complexity and that is going to be a significant concern.\" One of the main things I would advocate for is that people with intellectual disabilities should be entitled to and should have health assessments on a yearly basis. That should be facilitated. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Professor Mary McCarron","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Professor Mary McCarron  There is a fundamental question we need to ask and answer honestly, namely where does the locus of care responsibility lie?. Does it lie with the family or does it lie with the State? We had the carer\u2019s referendum, which answered that.  In terms of housing, I have said there is a new type of homelessness emerging for people with intellectual disabilities. Many struggle to get accommodation or a house. While we have respite and while we have increased it, what is available is not nearly enough to respond to the needs of family caregivers. We need different options. We need to ask people with intellectual disabilities and their families what they want. We have some information on that. In a country like Ireland, which is very wealthy in comparison with many, we should not have family caregivers stating that \"I wish my family will pass away before I die.\" We have to look at what the residential type options look like and what housing will look like for people with disabilities. There is a such a demand for social housing as a result of homelessness. Will these people just fall off the list in terms of getting homes for themselves? No more than is the case for any of our family members, a person with an intellectual disability who reaches a certain age and who desires to move out of home should be supported in getting a home. If the family member is no longer able to sustain caregiving, they should not have to wait until there is a crisis or until they have to put their family member into a hospital or refuse to collect them from respite. No family member wants to be in the situation where they are the person whose door is locked when their child comes home. That is not what any family member in this State wishes. We have to try to look at the type and amount of housing we need to support people who are being cared for by families. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Carrigy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Miche\u00e1l Carrigy  In the housing committee, we have asked the Minister and the Department about setting targets, particularly for the local authorities. Heretofore, they have been given a number, whatever that might be. That needs to be broken down into a certain number of houses for persons with disabilities or intellectual disabilities. In addition, a certain number have to be age-friendly going forward. My understanding is that is going to happen. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Professor Mary McCarron","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Professor Mary McCarron  We need universal design in all housing. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Carrigy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Miche\u00e1l Carrigy  Yes. Naturally enough, that should be taken into account when it is done. What is the position regarding best practice in Europe or elsewhere? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Professor Mary McCarron","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Professor Mary McCarron  In the context of the deinstitutionalisation model, we particularly looked up to and were very much guided by the Nordic countries. Those countries are really struggling to deal with people with intellectual disabilities who are ageing. I have just come back from Australia, which we also looked up to. Australia is really in crisis and is struggling with how to respond to those among the population who have disabilities and who are increasingly ageing. Nobody has sorted it, and people are looking to Ireland to see if we can be the leaders in this field.  While there are pockets of good practice in Ireland and pockets of good practice everywhere, I do not think that anyone has really sorted the issue out because ageing is such a new phenomenon in this population. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis na finn\u00e9ithe go l\u00e9ir as an obair uilig at\u00e1 d\u00e9anta acu. To return to housing, Senators Murphy O'Mahony and Clonan and Deputy Carrigy all brought up Before We Die, which has focused on that circumstance whereby 2,000 adults with disabilities are being looked after by parents who are over the age of 70 and 500 are being looked after by those who are over 80. Tony Murray of Before We Die gave the example of a 97-year-old woman still looking after her Down's syndrome son. The most shocking thing was that of those involved with them, only 2% had a transition plan for housing. As Professor McCarron has said, the problem is that one way people get sorted is when disaster happens. Perhaps a parent goes into the accident and emergency department and then it may take three months or nine months but in general, the only people who can jump in there are in the for-profit sector, at an added cost. The professor also noted that as people could be three counties away from where they started, whatever bit of community connectivity was there is all out the window. It is about having the information, detailing it and then doing something with it. In this case that would probably be a lot cheaper. As the witnesses mentioned earlier, it is about having a comprehensive plan in relation to this. The Remember Us group also were in front of us and talked about a particular housing project. The set rules around congregated settings were having an impact on what they were trying to put together. There has to be some sort of sense and flexibility.  We can flick from there into health. Dr. McMahon spoke about health assessment. We do not have in-built reasonable accommodations to facilitate those with intellectual disabilities. To flick back to homelessness, we have been talking about the huge number of people, perhaps with mental health issues, that we all have come across who cannot necessarily get the resources they want. We also referred to the protections that are in place in order that we do not return to the mass institutionalisation we had but sometimes, that means somebody does not get the treatment they need. There is an older cohort with intellectual disabilities, including people we have had in here, who have fallen into homelessness. Generally this is about people who at least are in some element of a service. The promise from the HSE is community care records, the idea being we would have the information and then have a plan but I am not sure any of us would bet that we will be in here in the next year or two and all these issues will have been dealt with. It is a matter of how we actually facilitate this.  I will put the question initially to Dr. McMahon. Some of this needs to be ingrained into medical training from the point of view of reasonable accommodations. In that context, how do we ensure that a health assessment is done on a more vigorous level and that a plan is in place? We must make sure we have the facility, that we know the people and that the connectivity is there.  Reference was also made to tooth loss and other things that allow old age in as well, and the idea of learned frailty from a lack of exercise and of a number of things. This leaves a cohort of people open to all sorts. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Martin McMahon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Martin McMahon  The Deputy raises some of the quagmire. The triangulation of the difficulties he raises are real challenges. I do not think we have a model of care for how we provide care for adults with intellectual disabilities, as adults and as----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  I feel that with all of this there is no overall sense of having the data and having a plan with various aspects from health to housing. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Martin McMahon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Martin McMahon  The integration is not there in terms of all these areas. Housing impacts on health and so on. That is one challenge but I think we need to have a really honest conversation about how we provide healthcare for people with intellectual disabilities. At the moment, it will be different across each regional health authority. There are community intellectual disability nurses, who may be allied to certain organisations, perhaps voluntary or not-for-profit or the HSE or whatever the case would be, but that is not universal. A person may be provided with a good community nursing service and intellectual disability service in one part of the country, while that is not available in another part of the country. We do not have a standard model of care for how we provide care for people with intellectual disabilities.  We definitely espouse a social model of care that does not medicalise people with an intellectual disability but we cannot escape the facts in our data and in the evidence from IDS-TILDA that the health needs of people with intellectual disability are extremely poor in comparison to all metrics for the general population. They have much greater challenges. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  Cancer is an example. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Martin McMahon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Martin McMahon  Yes. The cancer example is probably the most stark. This is work that is ongoing for people with an intellectual disability internationally. I am part of a European Union COST action; which is a networking grant that is just closing. Our colleagues across all European countries with developed and less developed health infrastructure have the same challenges. Ireland does not have a universal approach to provide care for people with intellectual disability.  The Deputy touched on when things break down and people have high levels of complex needs. What we start to see is the concept called \"Friday afternoon commissioning\", where somebody is in an accident and emergency department, somebody is moved to a nursing home or they are moved to respite. Then respite can turn into a long-term residential placement. Touching on Senator Clonan's point, this means that other people cannot get access to respite. There is a separation of housing and health and all these structures but specifically regarding the health needs, we do not have a universal approach towards a model of care for how we provide healthcare for people with intellectual disabilities. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  So what we need is that thing that is half promised around the community care records so at least the information is there. Then we need people responsible for ensuring that all these pieces are in place. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Martin McMahon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Martin McMahon  It is all well and good to say that people with an intellectual disability can access their GP, which is fine, but if they do not have the support to access their GP, if they do not have----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  The GP does not necessarily facilitate----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Martin McMahon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Martin McMahon  That is not the GP's fault. GPs have their challenges, but perhaps the supports and infrastructure are not there. What if the supports are in Galway, for example, but not there in Louth, and we do not have a universal approach for how we provide that healthcare for people with intellectual disabilities? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  And we are not doing the preventative piece either. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Martin McMahon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Martin McMahon  That is the challenge because it should be coming from a health promoter perspective. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  I am talking about that exercising scenario, for example, so the person does not have muscle atrophy and frailty. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Professor Mary McCarron","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Professor Mary McCarron  Taking up Dr. McMahon's point on the GPs, a 15 minute GP consultation just simply will not work for many people with an intellectual disability. It will take 15 minutes for the person to familiarise themselves and to settle down. This is hugely problematic. That is the allotted time for any of us who go to a GP but for this population, it is hugely problematic. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  Then it is the local authority, the HSE, and disability services around housing and those groups that are----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maurice Quinlivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Moving on to the Fianna F\u00e1il speaker----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  Apologies. I was unaware of the time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maurice Quinlivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I doubt that. We are moving on to Fianna F\u00e1il and Deputy Martin Daly, who has seven minutes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Martin Daly  Following on from Deputy \u00d3 Murch\u00fa, he is on the right lines and I support everything in his line of questioning here. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  I have that recorded. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Martin Daly  I will come to the health issues and the housing issues within the time I have. On the health issues, while there is no doubt but that there is a real issue around the general health and well-being of people living with disability, it is also an issue around enduring mental health illnesses. There are no primary or secondary preventative programmes where the person would have protected time within a GP surgery provided by contract and by protocol.  In my experience as a GP, much of the care comes down to the commitment of an advocate for the person who is disabled, such as a GP who may be vocationally motivated and makes that time. It often does not make business sense but they will do it. In the dental service where I am on the Galway-Roscommon border, we had a very committed public health dentist in Roscommon who literally saw it as a vocation to look after his group of people who had long-term disability, and gave them the most outstanding care. However, in County Galway the waiting list is three years to see a dentist in a public clinic. There is a very fragmented service and it is also siloed off, so if someone was on that border or literally 500 m inside it, they could not go ten miles to Roscommon but would have to go to Galway. This does not make any common sense. We have in general practice the chronic disease management programme, which is a protocol that might serve in respect of a model of care maybe for people with intellectual disability or with enduring mental health issues in the community. We really do need to address that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Martin McMahon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Martin McMahon  That is a really valid point. On mental health specifically, if we take a look at some of the conditions people with an intellectual disability have lived with over the years, there are high levels of psychotropic prescribing and some other challenges. We really need to try to improve people's quality of life as best we can, first. If we want to tackle mental health difficulties within this population, we really need to try to make things better. As a society we have really tried to do that in terms of closing institutions and giving people access to their own front door. We have forgotten about their health needs, though. We have really pushed on in terms of people's social needs but we are kind of neglecting the fact that some people with an intellectual disability, biologically, are predisposed to certain conditions. In terms of chronic disease management, that is absolutely an area that could be addressed. We do not call out people with intellectual disabilities within policy. The national cancer strategy is up for renewal at the moment. If we look at the previous cancer strategy, given that cancer outcomes for people with intellectual disability are so poor, are they once mentioned in that strategy? No, they are not mentioned. Professor McCarron has a line that if people with intellectual disability are not named in policy and guidance, it is too late. There is not a funding stream to support that. The Deputy was talking about the vocation of general practitioners and dentists. There are fabulous general practitioners, dentists, nurses and allied health professionals throughout this country who go above and beyond to provide care. That is not good enough. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Martin Daly  No. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Martin McMahon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Martin McMahon  It is not good enough to rely on people's own good will. It does not make financial sense. In the UK, I think some of the NHS GPs have to have a certain number of people with varying needs such as a learning disability, mental health needs and so on. They have a type of quota system in some areas that is operated. We cannot rely on people's good will to meet the healthcare needs of people with an intellectual disability. We see pockets of good practice but across the country we see general absences. Often it could be too late by the time a GP sees somebody with an intellectual disability. If we do not have ongoing monitoring and surveillance, for example through community nursing - we have community intellectual disability nurses who see the person at the place where they live and do the ongoing health monitoring and are also the advocate for the person, so they know they need to see the GP or utilise whatever service it is - until we can operate a model of care, at that point, it is really difficult. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Martin Daly  There is a real case for people living with intellectual disability and people with enduring mental health issues to have an advocate, and not just in the family, because that puts enormous pressure on families. I am aware of one mother who has a young boy with complex medical needs and intellectual disability, who spent literally three months herself, as a 28-year-old, negotiating with the HSE to get a care package to bring her boy home. She knows his life is not going to be long but she wants him at home and she is entitled to do that. She has given up her own career to look after him. We need those advocates in the system advocating and taking the pressure off family members, especially as parents get older in the system and themselves develop health issues. It is my experience that for a lot of people with maybe mild to moderate intellectual disability, not enough attention is paid to exercise and diet or to prevention. There are real issues around obesity, type 2 diabetes and hypertension. There are issues for people with enduring mental health issues who need to have lithium testing, for example. There is no protocol in the service for it, with the downside of thyroid problems and chronic renal failure. We really do need to take a much better approach to this.  We have people with intellectual disability who present to a hospital and may have complex medical needs as well. They are well known to everyone in the hospital. Everyone knows who they are because they are repeatedly admitted. They end up 12 hours on a trolley in an emergency room. Should there be dedicated physical space where people with an intellectual disability or complex medical needs can be assessed? Should there be a system whereby a register is kept, so everyone in that hospital knows that this young woman comes in with recurring urinary tract infections, requires antibiotics and IV fluids and should be admitted directly to a ward? Everyone knows this is so-and-so and we are going to take them straight in. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Martin McMahon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Martin McMahon  Absolutely. In some settings, particularly in the UK, there is a flag system. It is identified on a person's electronic record that this person has an intellectual disability and whatever adjustments are required are flagged up. I am not sure of any setting in Ireland that has that. The Deputy might be familiar with the liaison intellectual disability nurse. That is a specialist intellectual disability nurse who works in a hospital, supports people with an intellectual disability from admission through to discharge, and supports and works with staff in the emergency department and across the setting. The challenge with that, although it evaluates really well, is that it is not universal. There are a couple of Dublin hospitals which have it. What typically happens is that it is typically one person. There is good will of potentially a director of nursing or an organisation which financially supports that to happen. It works really well, but it becomes burdensome on the staff because they could be in a large acute hospital supporting multiple people with an intellectual disability. What happens then? It breaks down. There is a real challenge there with maintaining the ongoing emphasis. That is absolutely one thing that can be done. In terms of space, yes, there should be provision for people who have got an intellectual disability or other neurodivergent conditions. However, I think the reality is that there is not in multiple places. Due to the nature of emergency departments in particular, there are real challenges around needs. The points the Deputy makes are all very valid. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Martin Daly  Thank you. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Liam Quaide","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Liam Quaide  I welcome the witnesses. I was fortunate to have the opportunity to work as a research assistant on a project of The Irish Longitudinal Study on Ageing, TILDA, many years ago in St. James's Hospital. I am very aware of how consequential the witnesses' work is. It is incumbent on us as a committee and a political system to pay much greater attention to health issues affecting older persons and older persons with an intellectual disability. It seems the level of fragmentation between disability services, primary care, acute hospitals and older persons' services is similar to what we see among services for young people and adults. Do the witnesses have any thoughts on how clinical responsibility could be made more integrated for older people with an intellectual disability? How should care and rehabilitation be co-ordinated for a person who may be struggling with intellectual disability, physical frailty, dementia or other complex conditions? Do we need a named care co-ordinator or dedicated multidisciplinary older adult, intellectual disability pathway in every region? If so, what should be the make-up of such a team? What disciplines should we have? What sort of population size should such a team serve? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Professor Mary McCarron","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Professor Mary McCarron  We have chronic disease management programmes already in place, so that is a good infrastructure and a starting point.  We have a couple of issues. Many of the people on those chronic disease management programmes have no training or background whatsoever in intellectual disability. It is not part of their undergraduate curricula in occupational therapy, physiotherapy medicine, dentistry or pharmacy. We are trying to address that. That is something that needs to happen and it must be embedded in the undergraduate curricula of these professionals.  In Ireland, we are in a better position than most countries in that we have intellectual disability nursing as a specialist branch of the register so at a very minimum, there should be a nurse with specialist training on all of these teams to support the other people on these teams to assist. One good example of progress that we have made concerns dementia in people with intellectual disability, which was and still is a huge problem, particularly for those with Down's syndrome. We had hugely limited access to memory assessment and huge inequity. We managed to use the data to establish the national intellectual disability memory clinic at Tallaght University Hospital. Professor Se\u00e1n Kennelly is the clinical director of that. We have a number of advanced nurse practitioners who are intellectual disability trained supporting that clinic along with speech and language, psychology, occupational therapy, etc. We have seen a model that has worked in some areas and we can roll out something similar but we need to look at the current structures that we have, particularly chronic disease management programmes, and see how we can boost them but also make something that is universal across the country at a policy level and not just in pockets. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Liam Quaide","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Liam Quaide  Professor McCarron distinguishes between medicines management and medicines optimisation and points to the continuing high use of psychotropic and antipsychotic medication among older adults with an intellectual disability. To what extent is medication being used almost as a substitute for access to psychology, occupational therapy, speech and language therapy or behavioural supports and how can we address risks of overprescribing for older adults with an intellectual disability? Even if we got to a point of those therapeutic supports being much better resourced at at some future stage, people are often placed on increasing levels of medication over time in the context of mood or behavioural disturbance and that then becomes their baseline medication level. Should we have regular multidisciplinary medication reviews and active consideration of mandatory deprescribing? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Professor Mary McCarron","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Professor Mary McCarron  Absolutely. We should have something like the STOPP-START criteria that we have for the general population. It should be a starting point that we should have multidisciplinary reviews and regular medication reviews. Many people are prescribed and we have seen a change in the prescribing pattern. There is a lot of historical prescribing here so we have older generations who are prescribed large amounts. We have seen a change in prescribing patterns in younger generations, which is positive, and we need to see whether that continues but there needs to be access to a full range of multidisciplinary supports and medication. In particular, psychotropic medication should be a last resort after everything else has been supplied. We know that there are very serious side effects that people experience on these medications. Many people with an intellectual disability may not be able to record side effects and that is added burden for those individuals. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Martin McMahon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Martin McMahon  Most of the policy touches on medication management as opposed to optimisation, for example safe prescribing, safe storage and safe administration, in terms of the reviews, deprescribing and so on. One of the challenges is that if we take someone with an intellectual disability and behaviours that may challenge services, a lot of the time, there is this level of inherent risk to the person themselves, to the service, to other service users and maybe to the community so people are prescribed psychotropic medication, typically antipsychotics, to suppress behaviour as risk mitigation in terms of the interventions referred to by Professor McCarron, which are typically longitudinal. Deputy Daly spoke about mental health and improving people's quality of life. Often medication is used as a risk management tool, which may be appropriate at that point in time because lots of the other therapeutic interventions may not be there to be implemented. It is a really challenging situation because there is appropriate use of these drugs in certain circumstances, notwithstanding that it should be a last resort. Lots of interventions are longitudinal and complex to address different levels of challenges and it also has to be acknowledged that people are not just being prescribed psychotropic drugs and antipsychotics because they have an intellectual disability. There are lots of other complex environmental factors outside of that.  We are seeing changes, which Professor McCarron pointed to. More people with an intellectual disability are being prescribed antidepressant drugs, which is probably a good thing that maybe was unrepresented ten years ago. It is being recognised that this may be appropriate for people with an intellectual disability. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Maria Byrne  I thank the witnesses for being here today and for this very interesting conversation. As people get older, maybe their needs increase. The issue of carers, family members and community supports arises. What does it mean for those people? What specific issues should they be aware of? Sometimes it becomes harder for them to deal with people with intellectual disabilities as they get older. The whole issue of health inequality arises. As people get older, are there any examples of good practice? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Professor Mary McCarron","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Professor Mary McCarron  The example I gave involving dementia and how we have addressed that issue is probably a model that has worked and we can look at the roll-out of that whereby we have the national public clinic and are looking at the health clinic for prevention. We need to look at the rolling-out of that. We have a lot of level 2 memory clinics as well throughout the intellectual disability sector, so that is something. As we said in our opening statement, many people are ageing and they are happy and we need to add not only years but life to those years for people with an intellectual disability.  Prevention is key. We need to look at how we can push back the years of frailty, help people to live much more active lives and build circles of support for people in a really meaningful way that will enhance their lives in older years. Many members of this older generation of people with an intellectual disability are not married, many do not have children and many do not have grandchildren. They do not have those circles of support that many others who do not have partners have, so how will they be replaced? We have done some really good work with one of the organisations looking at building a model around circles of support. That is really important for this population in particular. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Martin McMahon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Martin McMahon  Regarding health inequalities, some of the things we do for the general population in Ireland such as making different vaccines available or screening for different cancers, that is also available to people with an intellectual disability, so theoretically we have equality of access. One thing we can learn as people age is that we can make things the same but if there is unfairness for people with an intellectual disability when it comes to accessing them, we create this inherent inequity and this unfairness in the system. When I think of people with an intellectual disability, there is nothing that says that they cannot access the exact same things in Ireland as anyone else. We say that we have equality and that we make things the same but there is inherent unfairness because the needs of people with an intellectual disability sometimes prohibit them and that is what makes it unfair and produces this inequity within the system. This goes back to Deputy Toole's first point. When she was asking questions, what she was really getting at were reasonable adjustments.  As a society, it is about how we can make reasonable adjustments for people with an intellectual disability so that they can equally access health services to meet their needs, and so that it is not just written on paper that we have this equality. We need to create this equity for people with intellectual disabilities as they age and grow older. The memory clinic Professor McCarron has spoken about does that, but it is only one pocket of practice. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Professor Mary McCarron","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Professor Mary McCarron  It is only one problem. Following on from Dr. McMahon's point, making reasonable adjustments takes time. Time is often the biggest issue when it comes to accessing healthcare, whether that is with a GP or at a general hospital. It is the time business. We also need to understand that education and wealth are probably among the strongest determinants of health and well-being. Many people with intellectual disabilities are often not rich in education or wealth, so their choices are limited compared to many others in society. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Maria Byrne  The witnesses touched on some of the whole well-being piece - mental health, physical activities and that. I know some people with intellectual disabilities love it, while others need encouragement to get involved. Certainly, those community cafes where they interact with one another are absolutely fantastic. There are so many services with different get-togethers - I hate calling them clinics - or whatever. Should there be more joined-up thinking between some of the organisations, or is there such thinking that I am not aware of? Certainly, many people get great benefit from attending some of these services. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Professor Mary McCarron","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Professor Mary McCarron  Many people with intellectual disabilities attend the services that are there for the general population, but we need additional supports to support those organisations. I was very involved in Age & Opportunity and Age Action, but when they needed it, we developed a PPals programme which developed physical activity competence in people with intellectual disability to enable them to be physically active in the community, which was very successful. However, the level of sedentary behaviour is a worrying trend in this population. We see many people leading very sedentary lifestyles, so we need to address that. This builds into what Dr. McMahon spoke about earlier with the early onset of frailty. Building competence in people with intellectual disabilities at a much younger age is very important. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Maria Byrne  I have one other question. If the witnesses were to think of a policy change that should happen and would be complementary to the whole issue, what would that be or what would they like to see happen? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Martin McMahon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Martin McMahon  We need to come from a health promotion perspective. If we take a look around health inequality research, it is too late when - forgive me - we are downstream pulling bodies out of the river. We need to operate a health promotion perspective to try to improve people's health and to maintain it at a younger age. We need to be upstream, which we do for the general population, and it needs to call out and include people with intellectual disabilities. We need to be upstream and targeted. As we said in our opening statement, poor health is not guaranteed. We need to act and get in there earlier. Sedentary behaviour is a perfect example. We know the related links there. If we can get in earlier to operate from a health promotion perspective, we can improve the lives of people with an intellectual disability. Currently in IDS-TILDA, 72% of people with intellectual disabilities are multi-morbid, and that is static across the five waves. We are running analysis on wave six at present, and it will be the same. We are talking about three quarters of people ageing with an intellectual disability being multi-morbid. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Maria Byrne  Thank you very much. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Keira Keogh  I thank everyone for being here this morning. I am very angry this morning, and it is right on topic. We have heard about the early intervention that is needed. We really need to increase the resources, especially in the area of dental. We need to improve training there. I am currently working with a constituent whose child has been on a dental waiting list for years. He already has problems. They contacted me on 8 June because the mom had noticed his behaviour was unusual for a couple of weeks. The child is non-verbal, so it is difficult to ascertain what the matter is. Eventually, she was able to look inside his mouth and realised there was a flap of gum hanging down. When they got to the dentist, of course the child did not want the dentist to look inside his mouth; he finds it difficult to sit in the chair. The mom knows this. She knew from the get-go that he needed to be sedated and brought to the hospital. However, you have to go through all the steps of booking the dentist, going there to have an unsuccessful appointment and then trying to get on an emergency list. Since 8 June, they have been on an emergency list for dental treatment. Today, he finally got his appointment for 24 July. That is with the intervention of a TD. This is what we are dealing with. What is his mouth going to look like in 20 years' time? Training is needed for our dentists to be able to listen to our parents, but we also have to increase resources in that area.  Some positive things are being seen in early intervention. The children's charity Variety is bringing in adapted trikes and bikes. The GAA is pursuing its Sport for All initiative. We are starting to move away from the disabled group and additional needs group going for a walk, going bowling, walking to the shop to get a treat or going to the chip shop to hand over their money and get chips. That was all well and nice, but we are now starting to have real inclusion. I think of Cuimsi\u00fa in Mayo, which is the adapted version of Comhaltas. A little girl, Hannah Dunford, asked her parents Chuck and Mair\u00e9ad on the way home from a fleadh when she would be able to take part in the fleadh. They have now made an inclusive Comhaltas event called Cuimsi\u00fa, which is about people with additional needs being able to fully participate in music, song and dance. We are seeing these improvements in inclusion for cultural aspects and sport. How long do the witnesses think those kind of improvements will take to translate into the IDS-TILDA in terms of chronic illness and outcomes? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Professor Mary McCarron","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Professor Mary McCarron  Such initiatives are to be warmly welcomed. We see pockets of that more inclusive approach, like with the GAA and all the things that are happening. We are looking at an older population. We are interested in enrolling people at a younger age, where we can then see the change. We need to work with the age-appropriate groups in society to make them accessible to people with intellectual disability. This includes the Alzheimer's and well-being cafes, and the other fitness clubs established throughout the country. We need to prepare and enrol people to support those with intellectual disabilities to engage with them. However, we have a bit to go when it comes to the older population.  Going back to the Deputy's point on dental, that is a tragedy. We are working very closely with the Dublin Dental Hospital. There is an absolute need for special care dentistry for this population. We need access to this specialist type of expertise, including the environments and the preparedness of the environment when the likes of that young boy comes into a dental hospital for care. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Keira Keogh  Many of the children I have worked with do not have the capacity to sit in a waiting room for 20 minutes. However, there are also good news stories. There is a fantastic dentist in Castlebar who used to see one of the kids I worked with every six weeks. He did not need to see him every six weeks, but he allowed him to come in and sit in the chair. He would put a bit of rinse in his mouth and let him out again. This meant that if there was an issue, he was used to coming in and there would be no problem. He would put him first in the morning because he knew there was no capacity for him to wait. When there is training - it is all about training, education and environment - there can be wonderful outcomes. The switch into meaningful inclusion is probably the biggest thing we can do in society.  The witnesses talked about gyms. There is a huge cohort of teenage children with intellectual disabilities who are not brought into the gym to meet with personal trainers.  When they go out for the day, they might be going down to the bowling alley to take part in the bowling and get chips, which they love, but if they are already suffering with a little bit of obesity, that is not going to target the issue. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Professor Mary McCarron","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Professor Mary McCarron  Leisure competence is a skill, and we need to start with children early to develop it, and sporting competence, when they are young. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Martin McMahon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Martin McMahon  A change of mindset. The Deputy talked about going out, but something that used to frustrate me was people with intellectual disabilities being driven around the place in cars to access places. They should be supported to develop the skills to use public transport where it is available. That then starts to give different life skills and increases activity. That was one thing that used to always come into my head - we are obsessed with driving people with intellectual disabilities around, but they should be supported in other ways if they are going to get a takeaway, going to the bowling alley or whatever. Viewing people with intellectual disabilities as having that level of competence and as socially valued members of society needs to be ingrained in society. When we see people who contribute and have that social competence, we start to change the mindset and people with intellectual disabilities become more ingrained and visible in society. That is the point the Deputy is getting at. We are seeing that, but we need more visibility and integration if people with intellectual disabilities are to be seen as being as competent as the Deputy or I. We will then start to change people's mindset. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Keira Keogh  The advocacy groups are going a long way towards that. There is a County Mayo advocacy group that I have engaged with a number of times. Being able to use one\u2019s own voice to say what one needs is important. When somebody whom we would traditionally have experienced being in the institutions of the past or going to a day service and maybe getting out now and again is saying that they want to be able to access the bus, go to the cinema and have a meaningful job, that is different than us trying to advocate on behalf of people with disabilities. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maurice Quinlivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  This has been a very important and interesting meeting, with a lot of contributions. It is the first meeting where every single member possible has turned up to. Obviously, there are reasons people cannot turn up, but this is the first meeting where everyone has turned up.  We will now go to the second round with two minutes for questions and answers. Actually, we have not finished round 1. I had noted Senator Harmon, but I forgot to call her. I apologise. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Laura Harmon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Laura Harmon  I thank our witnesses for their presentations and statements. I was listening online. This is an important session, as the Cathaoirleach said. The witnesses have raised some stark findings and issues that a lot of the general public are not aware of in terms of health and mental health needs that are not being met.  I have a few questions. It was interesting to hear what Dr. McMahon said about how independent living was about much more than just changing address.  In terms of the issue of loneliness and mental health, do the witnesses have recommendations on how that can be better tackled through policy or legislative changes? Is it about better planning for social participation? I am sure that ties into transport as well as other matters. I wish to hear the witnesses\u2019 views on that. Ireland as a whole has been labelled the loneliest country in the EU. I am sure that is doubled down on when we are talking about people with intellectual disabilities. How can we tackle that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Professor Mary McCarron","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Professor Mary McCarron  We have data to show that loneliness is quite high among people with intellectual disabilities, and many have transitioned into loneliness. Some have transitioned out. I mentioned the importance of building circles of support through community participation, having friends, having things to do, leisure time and one\u2019s own interests. Building that type of lifestyle for people is important. It is about having a best friend and friends outside the home, and broadening circles of support for people. Particularly as family members age, they may not be able to offer that level of support, so we need to broaden that.  Regarding transport and accessibility, we reported on the high levels of mobility problems that people had. Accessible transport is a real problem for this population. Many still have to worry about whether they can get on the bus or train. They are very unsure if the bus will actually stop and, if they are a wheelchair user, they will be able to get on it. It should be much more seamless so that if a person has a disability, for example, being in a wheelchair, the bus will stop and they can get on it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Martin McMahon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Martin McMahon  In terms of mental health, what we see in IDS-TILDA data is that we have high rates of mental illness. Across the international intellectual disability research landscape, people with intellectual disabilities have high levels of mental health needs. A lot of that is explainable if we take a look at where people with intellectual disabilities may have come from. For example, they may have lived in institutions with very difficult environments, they might have poor health needs, or they might be isolated and stigmatised. Deputy Daly touched on this earlier - we need to look at improving people's quality of life. If we here today had experienced some of the conditions that people with intellectual disabilities have experienced, we could have been affected in the same way.  We need to look at improvements and focusing on improving quality of life. Professor McCarron touched on circles of support, and that is a nice project that we can do. Who is important to these people? What do they want? What is their voice and what are their wishes? If they are involved in services, then community organisations, family members and caregivers are operating on the basis that they are going to try to help the person meet their needs and wishes. If we start to address and tackle the needs and wishes of people with intellectual disabilities and try to improve their quality of life, we will reduce the poorer mental health outcomes that this population experiences.  We have touched on the issue of medicines quite a bit. Even though people with intellectual disabilities have got higher levels of certain mental health conditions than the general population, their use of psychotropic and antipsychotic medication far outweighs the prevalence of those conditions. Those medications are used for other indications, which is a concern. We need to ask how we can improve people's quality of life. By asking that question and trying to address it, it is a way out of these mental health issues. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Laura Harmon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Laura Harmon  In relation to geography, is there an urban-rural divide in terms of services? Are there particular areas that the witnesses would say are less serviced than others or black spots or are doing well? I am from Cork, and I am curious about the south-west region. Is there anything the witnesses want to comment on in relation to geography? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Professor Mary McCarron","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Professor Mary McCarron  That is something we are focusing on a lot more because we now have eircodes and so on, so we are much better positioned to focus on where there is regional inequality. Certainly, we can see that there are parts of rural Ireland where access to services is much poorer and the health professionals are simply not there. There might be a visiting psychiatrist flying in from another country to monitor people. We have to look at availability and inequity at a regional level. There is inequity at regional levels, and we will have greater data on that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Martin McMahon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Martin McMahon  As an example of that, we spoke to a lady a few years ago in north Donegal who had to have cancer treatment, but she had to go to Galway. She had to get a bus from north Donegal to Sligo to get a transfer to go to Galway, and she was a wheelchair user. Members can imagine the challenges. If we take a look at access to services, that is something that really sticks in my mind. That would be a fairly significant undertaking for somebody who was physically fit, never mind someone with a cancer diagnosis.  I remember her describing how difficult that was. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gillian Toole","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gillian-Toole.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Gillian-Toole.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Gillian Toole  To go back to the point the witnesses made about having frequent interactions with the Department, given all that we have discussed, will any of those items be considered as policy actions going forward? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Professor Mary McCarron","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Professor Mary McCarron  We have produced a number of policy briefing papers on things like transport, oral health, medicines and many other issues. I am an eternal optimist. I believe there is a great interest in trying to better understand the data from IDS-TILDA and how that can inform policy. We have established a policy lab at Trinity as well, so we have a strong focus of the translation of these findings into policy and are actively working in that space. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Martin McMahon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Martin McMahon  We take at look at residential care for people with intellectual disabilities and the time to move on policy from 2011, my understanding is it has been a real advocate of driving that policy along with the HSE. There is also an understanding that it is time to reflect and to look at the models of care for people with intellectual disability and how we meet the needs of people who potentially have more complex needs. Senator Clonan talked about some of the issues there. There is definitely an understanding that we really need to look at where we move to and the future directions around developing appropriate models of need, particularly for the people with an intellectual disability who are ageing and have high levels of complexity. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Professor Mary McCarron","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Professor Mary McCarron  We are working quite closely with the Department in terms of what those innovative models of care might look like. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gillian Toole","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gillian-Toole.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Gillian-Toole.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Gillian Toole  That is hopeful. I thank the witnesses. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Margaret Murphy O'Mahony","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Margaret Murphy O'Mahony  I want to again thank the witnesses for coming in and the great work that they do. Any question I had has been covered by my colleagues. Is there anything the witnesses want to add? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Professor Mary McCarron","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Professor Mary McCarron  No, I just want to thank the members for the opportunity to come to speak with them today. It is important. IDS-TILDA is a great source of data. We need to enrol people at a much earlier age because many of the issues we are seeing are a reflection on things in earlier childhood. They are some of the things we need to be----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Martin McMahon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Martin McMahon  Equally, being able to highlight to public representatives, such as the members, what we are seeing from a helicopter view around the health needs of people with intellectual disabilities who are ageing, and having that platform, is important. I thank the members for that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Liam Quaide","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Liam Quaide  The witnesses research shows better outcomes for people in community settings but they also caution against a simplistic view of that as it may simply amount to a change address. What indicators would allow them to distinguish between genuine community integration and a person living in a different type of institutional setting? I have experienced a lot of challenges accessing data on out of area placements for children and adults with an intellectual disability. Do the witnesses have any sense of how displaced some of our older population with intellectual disabilities in residential settings are? I was very struck by something that Tony Murray said at a Before We Die public meeting in Cork. He said that when we moved on from congregated settings, we replaced the high walls of institutions with distance. To what degree are older adults affected by that trend? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Martin McMahon","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Martin McMahon  We have got the historical legacy of how care was originally provided in Ireland. There was an interesting fact a number of years ago that Sligo had one of the highest levels of disability in Ireland. That was not by virtue of more people in Sligo having a disability, it was that there was a lot of large institutional settings there with lots of people from Donegal and Mayo residing in them. Even through decongregation, my sense would be that there would still be a lot of people who may be from the west of Ireland living in dispersed community live-in environments in the Dublin region. That is by virtue of the way services were historically provided. I imagine that is the case. There have been attempts, and I have spoken to different organisations where people may have been relocated back to where they are from, but in terms of the sense of how many people are out of area, I would not have a sense of that. The historical set up and delivery of disability services will impact how that looks. However, as people age out and die, in regard to how services are now provided, there will be a different perspective in the future. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maurice Quinlivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank the witnesses for attending today and providing the various briefing documents in advance of the meeting. I also thank the members for making their contributions. I was struck by the witnesses' data and their input into IDS-TILDA. It is important, and we will try to progress it as best we can.  As everybody on this committee is aware, planning for an ageing population with disabilities requires a co-ordinated approach across disability services, primary care, acute healthcare, community services and social supports. This is the final public meeting in this D\u00e1il session. The committee will resume examining the broad interests of intersecting disability topics in the autumn.  I again thank the witnesses, the members for attending and all of the stakeholders who have engaged with the committee over the past while. With the members' agreement, we will go into private session to deal with housekeeping matters. Is that agreed? Agreed. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The joint committee went into private session at 11.16 a.m. and adjourned at 11.36 a.m. sine die ."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ageing Complexity and Health Needs of People with Intellectual Disabilities: Discussion"}]}}]},"contextDate":"2026-07-15"}]}