{"head":{"counts":{"debateCount":10000,"resultCount":10000}},"results":[{"debateRecord":{"house":{"showAs":"27th Seanad","committeeCode":"","houseCode":"seanad","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/house\/seanad\/27","chamberType":"house","houseNo":"27"},"chamber":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/def\/house\/seanad","showAs":"Seanad \u00c9ireann"},"lastUpdated":"2026-09-24T16:11:45+00:00","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-24\/debate\/main","formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-24\/debate\/mul@\/main.xml"},"pdf":null},"date":"2026-09-24","counts":{"contributorCount":33,"divisionCount":0,"debateSectionCount":9,"questionCount":0,"billCount":0},"debateType":"debate","debateSections":[{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_2","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Gn\u00f3 an tSeanaid - Business of Seanad","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  The Cathaoirleach has received notice from the following Senators that they propose to raise the following matters:  Senator Linda Nelson Murray - The need for the Minister for Social Protection to make a statement on the roll-out of the holiday meals pilot programme during Christmas and Easter holidays.  Senator Pauline Tully - The need for the Minister for Social Protection to make a statement on introducing a system where people in receipt of jobseeker's allowance who become ill are automatically transferred to the supplementary welfare allowance.  Senator Mark Duffy - The need for the Minister for Transport to provide an update on the reopening of the western rail corridor from Athenry to Claremorris, County Galway.  Senator Patricia Stephenson - The need for the Minister for Health to make a statement on the development of St. Luke's Hospital, Kilkenny.  The matters raised by the Senators are suitable for discussion and they will be taken now. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Gn\u00f3 an tSeanaid - Business of Seanad"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_3","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":false,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_4","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"School Meals Programme","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_4","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Linda Nelson Murray","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Brophy, and thank him for coming this morning. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Linda Nelson Murray","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Linda Nelson Murray  I thank the Minister of State for being here. I love the saying that perfection is the enemy of the good. Nothing could be clearer when it comes to the hot school meals. The Minister of State and I both know that we are feeding 550,000 children across 3,200 schools and the amount of money we spend on it is \u20ac300 million. The allocation in the budget to make sure that every child gets a chance of a hot school meal is absolutely crucial. It comes under criticism and it does need to change. However, this week we have made those changes happen with more changes to come. It leads me on to talking about the children during the summer, Christmas and Easter holidays.  Two weeks ago, I was in a school in my county, Meath. I had a conversation with the principal about different aspects of the school. He pointed out to me that many children in the school are absolutely starving. As Irish people, we recognise that our parents were feeders. People coming into a house got a cup of tea and a slice of cake. In my house there were plenty of potatoes on the plate; we were very lucky. As a nation, we are feeders. To think that in 2026 we have children starving in school is really sad.  The particular school I am talking about does not get the holiday hunger programme. The holiday hunger programme needs to be rolled out to more schools and more children. This programme provides nutritious meals to children and young people at risk of educational disadvantage during the summer holidays. The pilot was introduced in 2025 with \u20ac1.3 million in funding to provide meals to children during these holidays. The programme has supported over 42,000 children across 500 schools which is excellent. It has only been in place for the last two years. Last year, we only found out in June that this programme was going to be extended into the summer of last year. It was fantastic but we were quite late learning about it.  This scheme supports those with the most educational disadvantage with one in five children experiencing food poverty during the summer holidays. I do not think it is fair that we need to wait until June 2027 to hear if we have the programme. We need to know now. Families need to know now. Schools need to know now if we are doing the programme next summer. The budget should allocate more money to the programme so it can reach more schools and more children. Although schools do not open during the Christmas and Easter holidays, we need to do something. We need to come up with some way of feeding children. The children who are in school are the same children who are hungry during the Christmas and Easter holidays.  I regularly use the statistics from the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, whose representatives have appeared before the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Education and Youth. Some 112,000 people came to the Society of St. Vincent de Paul for food assistance. In our towns and villages, we know the number of Christmas hampers that people are donating. We see them in our supermarkets and local clubs are giving them to families who desperately need them. However, the Government needs to do its bit to help.  I strongly feel that in this budget, we need to put money aside to feed children who are hungry during all the school holiday times and to ensure the holiday hunger programme reaches more schools next summer. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration (Deputy Colm Brophy)  I thank the Senator. Before I begin to give the reply on behalf of the Minister, I want to take a moment to acknowledge the Senator's work in this area and in particular the research she worked on so tirelessly over the last 12 months which has contributed hugely to the reforms and changes to the system of school meals that the Minister has introduced. I have no doubt that he would echo that if he was here today. It has been one of the most important things undertaken by any Member of either Chamber in terms of influencing Government policy in this area. I again thank her very much.  In budget 2025 it was announced that a holiday hunger pilot project between the Department of Social Protection\u2019s school meals programme and the Department of Education and Youth\u2019s summer programme, formerly known as July provision, would be implemented during the summer of 2025. The pilot was part of a broader Government response to child poverty.  The objective of the school meals programme is to provide regular, nutritious food to children to support them in taking full advantage of the education provided to them. The programme is an important component of policies to encourage school attendance and extra educational achievement.  The summer programme is an educational programme which supports vulnerable children with complex special educational needs and those at greatest risk of educational disadvantage. The interruption of the regular school routine, social interaction with friends and other school supports presents a risk of regression in the learning, social and emotional development and well-being of these children. The programme supports academic, social and emotional development, ensuring children do not lose vital skills during the long summer break.  An evaluation of the 2025 pilot project found that 90.79% of schools that participated in the summer programme indicated that providing school meals positively impacted the children who took part. In 2025 the programme supported over 42,700 of our most vulnerable children with complex special educational needs and those at greatest risk of educational disadvantage. When looking ahead to 2026, 94% of schools surveyed indicated their intention to avail of the school meals during the summer programme in 2026. This pilot is a key initiative as part of the Government priority to combat holiday hunger.  In April this year, a one-year extension of the holiday hunger pilot project between the Department of Social Protection\u2019s school meals programme and the Department of Education and Youth\u2019s summer programme was announced.  Schools reported that the provision of meals supported attendance and engagement in programme activities, while also helping to reduce some of the pressures experienced by families during summer school holidays. The pilot has demonstrated the value of combining educational and nutritional supports, while ensuring that vulnerable children can continue to benefit from a structured environment that promotes their well-being, development and readiness to return to school.  The summer programme is an educational programme which is run during the summer months. It is a vital and targeted intervention that is specifically designed for children with complex educational needs or those at risk of educational disadvantage. The original intention and the continued emphasis of the summer programme is to mitigate the impact of learning loss on those children when schools are closed. The Department of Education and Youth has advised there are no plans at present to provide an in-school programme similar to the summer programme during the Christmas or Easter holiday. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Linda Nelson Murray","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Linda Nelson Murray  I thank the Minister of State. This reply has said how great the programme is and has said absolutely nothing about what is going to happen in the budget and if there is going to be any money allocated for next year. I appreciate we are not going to hear what will happen in the budget. We will obviously get to learn that in October. However, I would have liked some reference to the fact that we will hopefully see this programme expand next year or see it in the budget for next year. I also note that it refers to the Department of Education and Youth, whereas it was the Department of Social Protection that rolled out this programme into the schools. I know both Departments work on the hot school meals, and I have commended the Ministers, Deputies Calleary and Naughton, on this work a good few times this week. However, between the two Departments we need to make sure that we have money allocated in the budget to roll this out to more schools next year. I am determined for that to happen. If we are talking about one in five, as was mentioned, that is 110,000 children and not 42,000 so you can see they are already 50% undersubscribed. I thank the Minister of State for coming in and reading this out to me. I would appreciate if he would go back to the Ministers, Deputies Calleary and Naughton, and re-emphasise the point that children are hungry. We would like to see that programme enhanced for the summer and to look at a way of giving out meals during Christmas and Easter. I appreciate schools are closed, so it is harder because they can use the schools in the summer. Maybe we could put our heads together and think of how we can feed children during these times, because they are the same kids who are hungry. I also thank the Minister of State for his compliments at the start. I appreciate it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Colm Brophy  The Senator is aware that I know she has a real passionate interest in this area. I hear what she is saying. Unfortunately, as any Minister or Minister of State standing here today would say to her, as much as the Senator, the media and everybody would like the budget given out in advance, it will obviously be coming up and the announcements will be made within that. I will relay her concerns and the issues she has raised directly with the Minister, as I have no doubt she will take the opportunity on an ongoing basis to raise those concerns. I re-emphasise that the Government is fully committed to expanding supports for children and families and building on the success of the initial programme. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"School Meals Programme"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_5","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Social Welfare Benefits","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_5","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pauline Tully","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pauline Tully","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Pauline Tully  Maidin mhaith. Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an Aire St\u00e1it as an N\u00ed i dTosach Su\u00ed seo a ghlacadh. I raise the cases of a number of people, where the same thing happened to them. There were two over the summer and one previous to that. There was a young woman who ended up hospitalised with quite a serious heart complaint. She was in receipt of jobseeker's allowance, and her payment was ceased because she was in hospital and therefore no longer in a position to seek work or make herself available for work, which is quite understandable. However, she was left without any payment. She still had rent to pay. She still had her electricity bill, and she still had children to feed at home, but she had no money. She is a proud person and did not want to be borrowing money from people. She was also worried because she has basically been told that she has limited time to live. She is worried and already stressed about this and what is going to happen to her family. All she wanted to do was make sure they were okay. She was afraid that if something happened to her within the next few weeks, her family would be left with a lot of bills to pay. Another man had a heart attack and his jobseeker's allowance was just cut off and he had rent accumulating while he was in hospital, and other bills to pay. Another woman, Brigid, fell and broke a bone. She suffered a stroke and ended up in hospital. Again, she was on jobseeker's. Her relative went in, as you are supposed to do, and informed social protection that she was in hospital. They were told that all they had to do was take up a change of circumstances form, which they did. The first week came and there was no money. The second week came and there was no money. The third week came and there was no money. Again, her bills are accumulating. When her relation inquired again she was told that she should apply for illness benefit, but that is not the case. You can only apply for illness benefit if you have been working and have accumulated sufficient contributions. She contacted my office, and my assistant told her she needed to apply for supplementary welfare. All of that takes time.  I cannot understand why someone in receipt of jobseeker's allowance, which is a means-tested payment, and who is hospitalised and not in a position to work cannot just automatically transfer to supplementary welfare until they are out of hospital and well enough to sort out what payment they should be on, whether it should be to go back to jobseeker's or applying for disability. In several of these instances that was the case, but that takes time.  There is a lot of form filling when applying for supplementary welfare. You have to submit bank statements and other documentation. If you are in hospital, you are not able to access that information. You will not be able to get your bank statements and so forth. Another problem arises if a relative is doing it. Due to data issues, a relation cannot do it. As jobseeker's is a means-tested payment, the rates of pay are the same. Why can one not automatically cease the jobseeker's but go onto supplementary until such time as you are well enough to address the issues? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Colm Brophy  I thank Senator Tully for raising this matter relating to supports for jobseeker\u2019s allowance customers who become ill or are hospitalised. It is a condition of the jobseeker\u2019s allowance scheme that a person must be capable of work, available for full-time work and genuinely seeking work. Where a person cannot meet these scheme conditions due to illness or because they are in hospital, they may be entitled to support under the supplementary welfare allowance scheme. The supplementary welfare allowance scheme, which is administered by the Department through the local community welfare service, is considered the safety net within the overall social welfare system in that it provides assistance to eligible people in the State whose means are insufficient to meet their needs and those of their dependants.  Supports provided under the scheme can consist of a basic weekly payment, a weekly or monthly supplement in respect of certain expenses, as well as additional needs payments. The basic supplementary welfare allowance provides immediate assistance for those in need who are awaiting the outcome of a claim or an appeal for a primary social welfare payment or do not qualify for a payment under other State schemes. A person who is temporarily ill or disabled and does not qualify for a payment under the Department\u2019s illness-related schemes may qualify for basic supplementary welfare allowance, subject to certain criteria. This assistance is subject to the person having the right to reside and satisfying the habitual residence condition. Furthermore, the person must satisfy a means test. \"Sick no benefit\" operates as a category under the basic supplementary welfare allowance scheme and is generally used for those who are medically unfit for work but do not qualify for any of the Department\u2019s illness-related schemes and have an income need. There are currently 3,085 customers in receipt of basic supplementary welfare allowance under the category of \"sick no benefit\". Basic supplementary welfare allowance is currently paid at a maximum personal rate of \u20ac252 per week. Where a person has an income need and wishes to be considered for a weekly payment under the basic supplementary welfare allowance scheme, they are currently required to make an application specifically for this payment. The claim process involves the receipt of an application, the gathering and verifying of information, the assessment of that information and a decision on the claim. This ensures the applications are fairly decided in accordance with legislation and guidelines specific to the supplementary welfare allowance scheme, while also allowing the community welfare officers to provide a speedy delivery of service to customers.  All customers have the right to apply for supplementary welfare allowance and have their applications processed in an appropriate manner. As the means test for supplementary welfare allowance is different from that which applies to the jobseeker\u2019s allowance scheme, automatic transfer of customers between the two schemes is not possible or appropriate. Our community welfare officers have a great deal of experience in responding to all types of difficult situations and will be flexible in ensuring that a person is not left without the support they need. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pauline Tully","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Pauline Tully  I thank the Minister of State. I am saying that the time it takes to make an application for supplementary welfare and submit the information required can be weeks or months. In each of these cases, community welfare officers did not act very quickly. All of these people were left weeks, sometimes going into months, without income and were left borrowing money from family members. Okay, they got it back and were able to pay it back, but it put a lot of stress and worry on the people and left them owing people money all around them.  What is the difference in criteria in the means tests for the two payments? They are both means-tested payments and are similar amounts. I am not sure exactly what the difference is. It is not the Minister of State's portfolio and I do not know if he can tell me or not but I would love to know. It is an issue that affects quite a lot of people. If I am aware of three people in my locality being affected by this within a very short space of time, I am sure there are a lot more. Our hospitals are full of people, many of whom may be on social welfare payments. I understand they have to cease jobseeker's because they are not in a position to work but they should be able to claim the supplementary allowance without any hassle. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Colm Brophy  I will convey the Senator's concerns directly to the Minister. I have no doubt she will engage with the Minister as well.  It is important to put on record and to assure the Senator that the supplementary welfare allowance scheme is always kept under review to ensure it continues to support those most in need of assistance. Any person who considers that they have an entitlement under the supplementary welfare allowance is encouraged to make contact with their local community welfare service. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Social Welfare Benefits"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_6","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Rail Network","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_6","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Duffy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Canney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Duffy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mark Duffy  I welcome the Minister of State to Seanad \u00c9ireann. I thank him for being here for this important Commencement matter. I seek an update on the delivery of phase 1 of the western rail corridor from Claremorris to Athenry. As we both know, this has the potential to reignite connectivity across the western seaboard in a low-carbon fashion, connecting students with universities and colleges in both counties and connecting people with work, tourism, medical appointments and otherwise. It is a track that has lain idle for many years. If we are to move to a sustainable mode of transport, reopening railway lines where the State has ownership is a no-brainer. I thank the Minister of State for his work to lead and drive this forward, supported by Oireachtas colleagues across the west. It is important that we demonstrate progress, expedite the project and move it forward as quickly as possible to keep momentum going and inspire other areas. I hope with the support and leadership of the Minister of State, we will hear some positive updates today.  In Mayo we have Pro Rail in Kiltimagh where Eamonn Maloney has received planning permission and is doing brilliant work with his expertise in the rail industry. We have a very active support group, West On Track, which has been an ardent supporter of the reopening of the line. There is a commitment in the national development plan to the delivery of the western rail corridor, which I welcome and support. I encourage and ask the Minister of State to use every possible bit of influence he has to help expedite and drive it on to make sure this project can be realised as soon as possible to deliver for the people of the west. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Canney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Transport (Deputy Se\u00e1n Canney)  I thank Senator Duffy for affording me the opportunity to discuss the progress being made in relation to the reinstatement of the western rail corridor from Athenry to Claremorris or vice versa, whichever way you are sitting.  Improving public transport services and infrastructure is central to improving citizens\u2019 quality of life, addressing our climate action challenge and enhancing rural and regional connectivity. This Government is committed to a fundamental change in the nature of transport in Ireland, as reflected by the investment we are making in the public transport system each year.  In July 2024, the Department published the all-island strategic rail review initiated by the former Minister for transport, Eamon Ryan, which I want to recognise. The review lays out a strategic vision for the future of rail on the island of Ireland and envisions the electrification of intercity lines, capacity enhancements to enable higher speeds and the delivery of new and reinstated lines to broaden access to the rail network.  Building on the recommendations of the review, the Department published the rail project prioritisation strategy in December last year, which sets out how to best sequence the recommendations of the rail review. The strategy recommended the delivery of a series of early interventions including new passing loops and platforms to boost rail network capacity, including on the Dublin to Galway line with second platforms at Clara and Woodlawn stations. Among these early interventions, Mayo rail users will benefit from a new passing loop west of Claremorris, while Sligo will see the recommissioning of platform 2 at Sligo station and a passing loop between Sligo and Boyle. These interventions will help to enhance frequency for services operating on these rail lines and increase the resilience of the rail network. These interventions are fully funded for delivery by 2030 through a \u20ac100 million allocation under the national development plan agreed by the Government last July.  The strategy also identifies major projects with longer lead-in and development times targeted for delivery between 2030 and 2040. Major projects include intercity electrification and significant capacity upgrades on the rail network. Among these major projects, I am pleased to report that the first to enter construction in the coming years will be the reinstatement of the rail line between Athenry and Claremorris. Funding has been provided in the national development plan for construction to commence in 2028 and pre-construction activities are well under way. Early work is ongoing in the form of vegetation clearance and detailed structural surveys along the alignment of key structures such as bridges and embankments, including the reinstatement of the bridge at Ballyglunin. Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann has also appointed a multidisciplinary consultant to assist with the preparation of the project appraisal documents required under the infrastructure guidelines. Taken alongside other projects in the region, including the refurbishment of Galway Ceannt Station and the provision of a passing loop and second platform at Oranmore, the reinstatement of this line will greatly increase rail connectivity in the west of Ireland, bringing sustainability benefits for both passengers and freight.  The Senator mentioned students. The existing line, phase 1 had passenger numbers of about 132,000 when it opened. Last year, the number of passengers on that line was 750,000. That demonstrates that if you invest in the infrastructure, it will be used.  Our biggest challenge at the moment is providing additional carriageways, so that we can cater for the increased demand that is there. It is also part of the strategy that we try to improve the freight we are carrying by rail, which at the moment is 1% of our freight. With this additional investment in rail, we will see that happening as well. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Duffy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mark Duffy  I thank the Minister of State for the update. Is he able to provide additional clarification on some of the technical design or is it too premature to talk about that? I have raised things previously about the three different rail crossings at Ballindine, for example. A point that I have made previously, and I want to reiterate here, is that investment in public transport in one mode should not negatively impact road users. Underpasses or overpasses or realignment in certain areas to make sure that we are not negatively impacting other transport users would be most welcome. It should be a design that is smartly done and future-proofed in terms of the investment while we have this window of opportunity to deliver this key infrastructure. As the Minister of State said, there have been previous projections on different rail lines that were not so optimistic. The figures that the Minister of State outlined, whereby year 1 was 132,000 and on the phase 1 in the----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Canney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Se\u00e1n Canney  That was connecting Galway to Limerick. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Duffy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mark Duffy  The year 1 projection was 132,000 and now there are 750,000 passengers on it. The figures are phenomenal. We need to measure success on this next stage and use those numbers to compare and justify any future investment in rail reopening. I have had many people contact me in Charlestown, Kiltimagh and Swinford. They are enthusiastic for the reigniting of the railways in their towns in east Mayo. I would love to see that too. The first phase can help to inspire that if it can be done on time, expedited within budget and keep momentum going for the west. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Canney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Se\u00e1n Canney  The Senator mentioned the co-ordination between crossings on our major routes. We will have a crossing on the N17 twice, I think. I convened a meeting earlier this year of Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII, Galway County Council, Mayo County Council, the National Transport Authority, NTA, and Irish Rail, so that we will end up doing a co-ordinated approach to this and that any of the blockages that are there or any of the issues that arise will be dealt with in the pre-planning stage. That is ongoing at the moment. I am confident that we are planning ahead rather than ignoring things and that the stakeholders are working together to make sure we will have - when we are finished - a rail line that is operable and also that the roads are operable as well.  The recommendation to open the line between Claremorris and Athenry will be the first major infrastructural project to be delivered under the strategy. That is important. It underscores the importance of the line for enhancing regional connectivity. When opened, it will link Ballina, Westport, Castlebar, Claremorris and Tuam down to Athenry, Ennis and Limerick, and into Foynes, Galway, Cork and Waterford ports. That will relieve the congestion for freight, which is apparent at the moment on the line going directly up to Dublin. It is important that we continue to develop that. The opening of the line from Limerick to Foynes Port gives us an extra outlet for importing, exporting and using freight as our means of transport.  In relation to the whole concept of transport within Europe and within the Presidency, and looking at what we will be doing in terms of the Connecting Europe Facility for the next five years, we have included ports as a very important part of that infrastructure funding, as well as the hinterlands to ports. Ports need to have direct access to rail or a road to get their goods and services out. That is very positive news for the future development and sustainability of our rail network. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Rail Network"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_7","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Hospital Staff","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_7","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patricia Stephenson","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Murnane O'Connor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Noonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patricia Stephenson","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Patricia Stephenson  Cuirim f\u00e1ilte roimh an Aire St\u00e1it, an Teachta Murnane O'Connor. There was a bit of a delay, but I am delighted to see her here because it is great to have a Minister of State from the Department. I am very happy that we waited to have the correct Minister of State in place. I thank the Minister of State so much.  I raised the issue of low staffing levels at St. Luke's Hospital in February in the Chamber alongside Senator Noonan. I do not think it was a Minister or Minister of State from the Department who answered our question. We heard at that stage that there was a commitment to the progressive development of St. Luke's. It is an area that the Minister knows plenty about. We had news over the summer that St. Luke's in Kilkenny has the highest staffing deficit in the Dublin and South East HSE region with 148 vacancies recorded in August. This comprises approximately 67.5 whole-time equivalent nurses. These are vacancies in nursing. We heard about these vacancies at the start of the year as well, so they are still in place. This has a direct impact on patient and staff safety. Staff are under significant pressure, including huge trolley pressures daily with no relief because of massive overspending by some hospitals, but not in this case by St. Luke's.  As the Minister of State knows, St. Luke's serves a very large catchment area as there are few hospitals located in the centre of the country. It has done incredibly well in the past in managing budgets, but in many ways, it seems that the hospital is being penalised for working within its limits. Ongoing staffing shortages include two emergency department consultants which had been promised. I have written several times to the Dublin and South East HSE team and I have never really received a satisfactory response. It took a long time to get any response and even when I got one it was not up to scratch. St. Luke's has the third lowest ratio of emergency department consultants per patient attending in the country.  Despite it being an incredibly busy model 3 hospital, it is simply not safe enough for patients.  Another question I have, which the Minister of State will, I am sure, be able to answer, is around the Carlow injury unit and when it will be fully staffed. I am a little concerned that when the Carlow injury unit opens, it will poach staff from the emergency department in St. Luke's where the staffing levels are already so low. Clarification on how those human resourcing systems will be put in place would be helpful. People in Carlow-Kilkenny are being let down by this. We are being punished for St. Luke's being a very effective hospital and for doing such a good job. The inequity is frustrating and it is having a direct impact on staff morale as well.  We heard recently that several health regions are having their spending powers removed. I am wondering how this will affect the staffing constraints already facing St. Luke's. I recognise that the HSE has been over budget but prior to 2020 there was significant underspending in the health service and it was hugely affected by austerity years combined with changing demographics and an ageing population. Our hospitals and healthcare centres must be staffed to safe levels for both patients and the staff themselves and we need budgets that reflect the reality on the ground.  There is a critical need for these clinical posts. Instead, we have seen the hospital over relying on highly costly agency staff which is not good value for money and there is a serious perception that St. Luke's is being treated differently to other model 3 status hospitals in the country. It would be helpful for us to understand where the staffing plans are and what was being made to ensure that we have safe staffing at St. Luke's and also, of course the Carlow injury unit when it will open. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Murnane O'Connor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor)  I thank the Senator for raising this important question. The Senator and the Acting Chairperson, Senator Noonan, have constantly be raising these issues, and rightly so. I thank the Senator for this opportunity to address the House on this matter. I am taking this Commencement matter, as the Senator will be aware, on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill.  The Government is committed to the development of services in St. Luke's General Hospital. As the Senator will be aware, we visited there recently - it is a few months ago the way the months are flying - with the Minister. St. Luke's General Hospital provides a range of important services to the people of Carlow-Kilkenny as well as counties Tipperary, Waterford, Wexford, Kildare and Laois. To meet the increase in demand for services, considerable additional resources have been provided in St. Luke's. Staffing at the hospital grew from 1,185 to 1,505 between the end of December 2020 to July 2026. It has grown quite considerably. This represents a significant increase of 27%. The HSE has advised it continues to actively progress and approve vacancies and implement workforce planning measures to support service delivery - they are constantly onto that - while staffing levels, patient activity and service requirements are also monitored on an ongoing basis. The budget for St. Luke's hospital increased by 62% between 2020 and 2026 and important capital projects are being progressed. These projects include the refurbishment of existing wards to accommodate acute beds, including space for a paediatric day unit which was completed this year.  I would also like to respond to the Senator's question on the update of the staffing of the new Carlow injury unit, which is important for us all. Enabling works have started on this unit. The work has commenced. While the work is progressing well and we hope to have it open as soon as possible, all efforts are being made to operationalise the injury unit prior to the planned opening in 2027. To put it simply, the contractors are in, it is being worked on, but my priority, like that of the Senators, is to have it up and running as soon as possible. This represents a key step forward in delivering this important service for the people of Carlow and surrounding areas. Recruitment for the Carlow injury unit will follow the national model for injury units. It includes: advanced nursing practitioners, emergency medicine medical staff, radiography, administrative support, and operation and governance roles. The HSE will ensure that staffing is phased in line with the construction process, commissioning requirements and service readiness. Even though Kilkenny will lead this now and it will be working in conjunction with Kilkenny hospital, they will have their own separately. Their staff will be different while they all work together, to clarify that.  I am also happy to inform that Senator the HSE has confirmed that the staffing, as I have said, in the injury unit will not impact the posts committed in St. Luke's hospital. The posts remain part of the hospital work plan and they are separate from the staffing model of the injury unit, because there were - the Senator is correct - huge concerns about that. Most of them are nearly hired now. Work has started. The main thing is we get it open as soon as possible. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patricia Stephenson","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Patricia Stephenson  I thank the Minister of State. I am glad to hear that the staffing will remain separate to St. Luke's and it will not draw from it, because, as the Minister of State mentioned, there were concerns around that. It is good to have that confirmation that it will not be drawn from the same pool.  I am delighted that work is progressing. I hope that we open the unit as soon as possible because the key thing is it will also alleviate a lot of pressure on St. Luke's accident and emergency department as well as a consequence of Carlow having its own injury unit.  On the question of the two outstanding emergency department consultants, I recognise the Minister of State is saying staffing and spending have increased but our whole metric around staffing has to be around safe staff levels. The HSE faced underspending powers in 2020 during austerity. I recognise a huge amount of money has gone into it but the challenge is that we still have two outstanding positions in accident and emergency - the third lowest ratio in the country despite the catchment area being so huge. That is a risk for patients who are coming in and it is a risk for staff. Those posts have been promised and they have still not been delivered. I cannot understand. When will they be delivered? I suppose we need clarity on that because it is dangerous for people. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Noonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Malcolm Noonan)  We do not have a written response for the Senator but we will get that provided for her. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Murnane O'Connor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor  Apologies, I will get that for the Senator.  I will get clarification about those particular posts because it is important. I will be in contact with the Department today.  What I can say, as the Senator said earlier, is that Kilkenny hospital is outstanding. It is a model 3 hospital. The staff do great work there.  It is important, as she said. Working through the HSE and with the Department, there has been an increase in staffing but on those two particular posts, I certainly will come back to her.  On the injury clinic, we are moving as quickly as we can. When you give a time, there are always delays. We hope to have some of it ready or operational by the end of this year and then, in early 2027, it will be fully operational. It is great to see this. It adheres to Sl\u00e1intecare. For the people of Carlow and the surround areas, it will be good to have this operating.  I thank Senators Stephenson and Noonan for their commitment. They are constantly highlighting the importance of this too. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionra\u00ed ar 10.18 a.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 10.30 a.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Sitting suspended at 10.18 a.m. and resumed at 10.30 a.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Hospital Staff"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_8","debateType":"orderofBusiness","bill":null,"showAs":"An tOrd Gn\u00f3 - Order of Business","counts":{"speechCount":29,"speakerCount":22},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fiona O'Loughlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Noel O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Noel-O'Donovan.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Noel-O'Donovan.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Clonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","memberCode":"Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pauline Tully","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patricia Stephenson","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Margaret Murphy O'Mahony","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aubrey McCarthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria McCormack","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-McCormack.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Maria-McCormack.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ollie Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ollie-Crowe.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Ollie-Crowe.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gerard P. Craughwell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerard-P-Craughwell.S.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Gerard-P-Craughwell.S.2014-10-10","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gareth Scahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael McDowell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","memberCode":"Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Shane Curley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Shane-Curley.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Shane-Curley.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sarah O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Linda Nelson Murray","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Victor Boyhan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Duffy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Conway","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Conway.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Martin-Conway.S.2011-05-25","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fiona O'Loughlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Fiona O'Loughlin  The Order of Business is No. 67(5), Private Members\u2019 business, motion regarding reports under Seanad Standing Order 87(1)(b) - report of the Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media entitled \"Report on Inclusion in Sport\", to be taken at 11.45 a.m. and to conclude at 1.30 p.m., if not previously concluded; and No. 1, statements on the Irish naturalisation and citizenship system, to be taken at 1.30 p.m. and to conclude at 2.45 p.m., if not previously concluded, with the time allocated to the opening remarks of the Minister not to exceed eight minutes, group spokespersons not to exceed eight minutes, all other Senators not to exceed five minutes, and the Minister to be given no less than seven minutes to reply to the debate; and time may be shared. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mary Fitzpatrick  Over the recess we saw five young lives ended on the motorway. We have seen adolescents charged with murder, assault and very serious levels of antisocial behaviour and crime. I would like the Deputy Leader to arrange a debate in the House with the Minister for education on the provision of a national adolescent primary prevention system. We need to better understand what is going on with our teenagers and adolescents. I believe the Minister for education is ideally positioned to implement on a nationwide basis an adolescent primary prevention system.  I welcome the Government's approval for the MetroLink. It has moved to detailed tender and design and this is an excellent development. I want to specifically ask that in parallel to this process the Minister for housing and the Minister for Transport work with the Land Development Agency to develop and masterplan the Carlton site, where we will have a metro station on O'Connell Street, to also deliver affordable homes. This is unique regeneration opportunity and a unique opportunity to provide affordable homes on O'Connell Street in the heart of our city centre. The site is enormous and has the capacity to deliver the MetroLink, affordable homes and cultural and commercial space. I ask the Deputy Leader to engage with the Ministers with responsibility for housing and transport and ask them to task the LDA to masterplan the Carlton site for affordable homes.  We have had a lot of talk about the upcoming budget. I support the appeal of my colleague, the Fianna F\u00e1il housing spokesperson, Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath, to help first-time buyers. He has asked that the Government would waive stamp duty on the purchase of homes by first-time buyers. This is an eminent proposal that backs first-time buyers to own their own home. Budget 2027 should back first-time buyers. It should remove stamp duty, as Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath has suggested, and help more first-time buyers to achieve home ownership. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Noel O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Noel-O'Donovan.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Noel-O'Donovan.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Noel O'Donovan  I want to raise the serious issue of respite in west Cork. It is a matter I have spoken about in the House previously. Members know I do not mince my words when I speak on matters, and to say the respite service in west Cork is a disgrace at the moment is nothing short of the truth. The front page of today's Southern Star notes that 20 parents of families with disabilities have sent a solicitor's letter to CoAction and the Minister in terms of respite provision in west Cork. As we all know, to send a solicitor's letter must mean a situation is very serious, and such is the nature of the reason they have had to send this letter.  We have a system of respite in this country that I do not think is fit for purpose. Whether we are in government or out of government, I do not think it is fit for purpose. We have a service provider in west Cork. I hate to have to go on the record with this but it is well known and the dogs on the streets in west Cork know that there is more than \u20ac5 million in a bank account yet we have a severe shortage of respite. I hear in these Houses calls on the HSE to provide extra funding for this organisation. That is fair because organisations have funding and should be providing and developing systems and places for residential and overnight respite. The HSE does have a role here to investigate these organisations to see where the funding is going and what it is going to be used for. I know the board members of CoAction in west Cork have tried and are trying. They are listening to the parents in west Cork but we need to see action.  I know from having raised this matter here previously that the HSE has audited these providers. I am aware an audit has taken place but we need to see the findings of the audit. We need to see properties built. Properties and land are owned across west Cork. I am speaking here for the families. I have thought long and hard about what I should say this morning. People know that I work behind the scenes to try to find solutions but I have a duty to speak here this morning and ask where this money is going to be spent. When will these 20 families, and there are countless more across west Cork who could come together to write a letter, see respite?  We see the Before We Die campaign throughout the country. What we are looking for here is respite. Families have not received respite in years. We should be doing better as a State. The funding is there. The money has been raised from the good people across west Cork and it is not State funding. There is \u20ac5 million in a bank account. We need to do better. I call for a debate with the Minister for disability urgently on this matter so we can see the reviews of the audit and we can see increased respite. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Clonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","memberCode":"Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Tom Clonan  I welcome my intern, Sophia Mulvany, the inestimable Sophia. She will be with me until Christmas. I am delighted to welcome her to the Chamber.  It is my first time to speak on the Order of Business since we resumed the Houses and I want to express my sincere sympathies and condolences to Senator Craughwell. Gerard is a big man with a big heart and, at the end of the day, all we have are our relationships with each other. Having lost his wife after 49 years of marriage it is very hard to see Gerard heartbroken and I wish him very well in the journey forward. We express our solidarity with him.  I want to raise a question on the Order of Business today regarding the debate on citizenship and the new rules. The speaking time has been reduced to 120 seconds for Members and I ask the Deputy Leader whether we can have an extension to this debate today.  I want to raise a couple of issues this morning. Exactly 15 months ago, on 25 June 2025, I introduced my Disability (Personalised Budgets) Bill in the House. It was time delayed by the Minister, Deputy Foley, for 18 months without any consideration of the Bill. I got pro bono advice from one of the large legal firms. It was the first time in the history of the State that an international firm worked with the Office of Parliamentary Legal Advisers. We took every piece of Government policy and consultation the Government had and drafted this legislation. I had a legal team from that legal firm for two years and the Minister just guillotined it with a delay of 18 months until Christmas Day 2026. I believe it is listed to be re-read on Christmas Day this year. This is a cynical abuse of the House. The Minister, Deputy Foley, said on the day that \"Collaboration and co-operation will be the hallmark of how this Government approaches the disability sector\". She called it a \"sector\". It is not a cost centre; these are people like my son. She then said, \"Therefore, I look forward to working with everyone, including the Members of this House, to achieve tangible change for people with disabilities.\" She referred to \"people with disabilities\" but I think she means disabled citizens.  In the 15 months since then, I have written repeatedly to the Minister, Deputy Foley, and the Minister of State, Deputy Higgins. This week, I received an email from the Minister\u2019s PA, which outlined that the Minister was not in a position to meet me. The Minister is not going to meet me on this and disabled citizens all over this country are going to be left disempowered in this way, including members of staff in this House, who are well-known to all Senators and are struggling. I know one member of staff whose wife has to go with their disabled adult son every day to a resource centre in Tallaght. That is inhumane and wrong. The Disability (Personalised Budgets) Bill would solve those problems. In the absence of willingness on the part of the Minister or Minister of State to meet me, I ask for a debate in this House on disability personalised budgets.  I apologise to the Leas-Chathaoirleach for going over time, given the matters I had to raise earlier. The Disability (Amendment) Bill listed in the programme for Government is a catastrophic move. For the past four years, I have been saying that the only legal right disabled citizens in Ireland have is the right to an assessment of need. The Disability (Amendment) Bill that is being proposed will dilute and remove that right. We will have no rights. I am asking my colleagues to please not do this. This is like the referendum on care and the Green Paper on disability reform. It is a catastrophic step for disabled citizens dressed up as progress. It is not progress; it is a catastrophic step backwards. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pauline Tully","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Pauline Tully  I raise the case of a 78-year-old man who lives in my area. He contacted me approximately six months ago. He is the sole carer for his 45-year-old daughter, who has a diagnosis of Down\u2019s syndrome. Three years previously, he applied for residential care for her because he felt that, as he is getting older, he will not be able to care for her and he wishes to see her settled in case anything happens to him. I contacted the HSE in February in this regard and received a response one month later. The HSE outlined that it had carried out assessments on his daughter, prepared a business case proposal and reached out to providers. I thought there was movement at last. The HSE said it had spoken with the father, and I confirmed that with him. We thought there was finally movement after over three years.  This week, however, he contacted me again to say that nothing has happened since - not a word. He is under the impression that a provider has been identified but there could be budgetary issues. We are not absolutely clear in this regard. This man has been unwell recently. He was in hospital a few weeks ago for tests and he has to return in another two weeks for more tests. He does not know how serious it is but his medical team are quite worried. He is concerned now more than ever about the care of his daughter. The HSE\u2019s initial response to this case was to ask why his other daughters could not look after her. They do not live in the area and it is not their responsibility. This woman is entitled to have a setting prepared for her.  I think this man contacted me because he heard me speaking about the Before We Die campaign. His is just one example, however. There are many others in similar situations. We need to look at this issue again. I would love a debate in this Chamber with the Minister on providing residential care for adults with intellectual disabilities who are still living with elderly parents. This should be planned for. It should not be left until the parent is too old to look after that person, causing them to be stressed and worried because they do not know what is going to happen to their child after they die.  In the time remaining, I wish to commend Nikita Hand on her interview on \u201cPrime Time\u201d last night. She was excellent. She is a very brave woman. She has to be commended on standing up as she did, taking the civil action and then giving the interview. She has also written her memoir. She is a great example to others who find themselves in this situation. Sexual violence and abuse is far too prevalent. Often, victim-blaming is still very much at large. I commend her. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patricia Stephenson","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Patricia Stephenson  I add my voice of support to Nikita Hand. She has shown the most incredible resiliency throughout the past several years. It is amazing to see someone put themselves forward so vulnerably and push progress along when it comes to what people understand about sexual violence and what it does to an individual.  This week, new research from the National Youth Council of Ireland found that nearly seven out of ten young people are considering moving abroad for a better quality of life. While these figures are not necessarily surprising, they are an indictment of the Government. Young people in Ireland have been continuously failed by the State. They have been hung out to dry by the failed housing policies of successive Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael governments. They have been ripped off by record rent prices, which are among the highest in Europe. They are priced out of affording their own home by foreign investment and vulture funds, leaving record numbers still stuck in their childhood bedrooms having to put independence on hold.  It is not an entire surprise that people leave. We have had generations of young people leave. People left after the 2008 crisis and during the eighties. However, we are now a wealthy country doing well and the fact that another generation of people feel forced to leave because they cannot have a good quality of life is horrific. The Government needs to wake up to this reality. The social contract is broken for many young people, many of whom missed out on key milestones and experiences, particularly during the pandemic. They do not have proper university life any more when they are commuting several hours to their college.  Year on year, housing and affordability are the main concerns that come out of the research by the National Youth Council of Ireland. This year, there were also rising concerns about employment. Nine out of ten young adults said it is harder to find secure, well-paid work. We are seeing a shift in the labour market, with the proliferation of AI disrupting traditional entry routes and early career roles in the job market. It is young people who are at the coalface of this challenge because decent entry-level jobs are dwindling, which makes it even more difficult to afford rent and move out of home. Instead of increasing public transport opportunities and having progressive policy, we are increasing public transport fares. We are removing protections for renters and we are failing to support young people with the crippling cost of living.  We have all these record tax receipts, which is fantastic, but we cannot provide basic public services and a decent standard of living for our young people. People need affordable housing and decent paying jobs. It is hardly a lot to ask for when we consider how wealthy our society apparently is. We are failing the next generation. They feel they have no future here. We must treat this like the crisis it is. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Margaret Murphy O'Mahony","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Margaret Murphy O'Mahony  I will speak today about school escorts. We can all agree that the service they provide is outstanding. Having spoken to many parents whose children use the service of a school escort, they say they could not cope without it. They are grateful for school transport being provided in the first instance, but many of these children would be unable to go to school without the school escort. There are around 22,000 children being looked after by approximately 4,000 escorts. The day\u2019s pay for escorts does not start until the first child is picked up. Many of the school escorts are picked up by the bus driver or taxi driver in their homes, but they may have to travel half an hour or an hour to pick up the first child. Their day\u2019s pay should start when they are picked up. Obviously, when they are driving along with the driver, they are talking about the children and their minds are on what is coming up next, etc. That is the start of their day\u2019s work. I would like the Minister to come in to discuss the pay and conditions of these fantastic escorts.  They are also not paid for the summer holidays, even though they start again in September or late August. They do not get paid during the summer. They are often undervalued and are certainly undervalued pay- and respect-wise. I would like the Minister to come in to acknowledge the great work of these escorts and discuss their pay and conditions. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  I welcome guests of Deputy Sean Fleming from the Laois and Offaly Education and Training Board, LOETB, Portlaoise. They are all very welcome. I hope they enjoy their visit today. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aubrey McCarthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Aubrey McCarthy  The Deputy Leader will be aware that I am the chair of the south western regional drug and alcohol task force, otherwise known as SURF. An issue has arisen with a project we have in Newbridge, which is in the Deputy Leader\u2019s constituency, concerning the Peter McVerry Trust. It is running a front-line addiction service. It has gone to landlord after landlord looking for new premises, but no one will take it. The town badly needs this service. After more than one year, the service still sits upstairs in an industrial estate between Naas and Newbridge.  As the Deputy Leader can imagine, being located upstairs is not good for people with mobility problems. It is in the old industrial estate, Toughers, so while it is meant to be a drop-in service, it is not very easy to drop in. Nobody is defending the location. The trust certainly is not. However, it seems like the doors are shut.  People have complained to me that pharmacies in Kildare town will not dispense methadone. We know of one case where methadone was prescribed by a vet for a dog in the area. It seems that, in Kildare town, a dog can get methadone but the people who need it badly cannot. It is blatant discrimination. The HSE fully knows about this. We had a recovery event in the audiovisual room yesterday and we were all championing recovery. The room was full. It is Recovery Month. We were all saying that recovery is possible but, while we are saying that, the very people we are talking about are being pushed further from the help they absolutely need. The Deputy Leader will know that I have worked in this area for over 20 years. In 2026, vulnerable people in our own area cannot get basic medication in their own town. That shows a stigma that is built into the whole system. These are private pharmacies. I know the HSE is limited in its reach but I ask the Deputy Leader to bring the Minister of State with responsibility for drugs policy, Deputy Murnane O'Connor, before the House to answer questions such as whether the primary care centre in Kildare town can dispense methadone and which State building can host the addiction service in Newbridge. I believe recovery is possible but only if the doors are open. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria McCormack","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-McCormack.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Maria-McCormack.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Maria McCormack  I also welcome the visitors from Laois. It is great to have them in the Chamber. I am going to speak about Laois once again. I will raise the issue of a deeply concerning report that landed on my desk this morning. It related to a HSE internal audit of doctor recruitment. The audit examined the files of 20 doctors employed across the HSE Dublin and Midlands region, which includes Portlaoise hospital. According to the report, only 14 files contained evidence of Garda vetting, 15 contained overseas police clearance and 13 contained the required evidence of English language competence. To be clear, a missing document does not mean that a doctor has a criminal record or cannot speak English but the HSE must be able to show that these checks were completed before a doctor begins treating patients. This raises serious questions. People in Laois depend on Portlaoise hospital every day. They deserve to know whether any of the files examined relate to the Midland Regional Hospital Portlaoise, whether the missing evidence has now been found and verified, and whether this problem extends beyond the small number of files that were audited.  I also want a debate in the House to allow the Minister to address concerns about doctors regularly being moved from Portlaoise hospital to Tullamore. How many doctors have been reassigned from Portlaoise and for how long? What assessments were made as to the effect on staffing and patient care in Portlaoise? Portlaoise hospital is on its knees as regards staffing levels. The maternity ward especially is absolutely bursting at the seams. The nurses there are run off their feet. I commend the nurses on the job they do but news of doctors being moved while there is a HSE embargo on staff recruitment is very concerning. I want to do everything I can to protect staffing levels in Portlaoise hospital. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ollie Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ollie-Crowe.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Ollie-Crowe.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Ollie Crowe  I sympathise with my colleague, Senator Craughwell, on the loss of his wife, Helen. It has been a tough few months for the Galway man.  Ahead of budget 2027, I will raise the challenges being faced by pubs across the country and the need for these to be addressed as part of the budget. Other countries are also facing these issues and have taken some action. I have spoken in the House before about the significant measures France has taken. Even closer to home, Prime Minister Andy Burnham has pledged a further 20% cut in business rates next April in addition to the 15% cut provided last April. He has also spoken about how this is only the first step as regards the measures his Government will take to support the bar business. We have to see similar action in Ireland to support thousands of family businesses across the country that provide tens of thousands of jobs, often in small rural towns and villages where jobs are not easily replaced. The Vintners Federation of Ireland is pressing for the Government to introduce a system of tax credits for the sale of draught beer. The tax credit would be valued at \u20ac20 per 50 litre keg of beer, with pubs eligible to claim a maximum of \u20ac20,000. This would have a significant impact for smaller pubs across the country.  The extremely high level of alcohol taxation in Ireland in comparison to the rest of Europe is actively harming the sector. Recent research from Dublin City University found that people in Ireland pay the second highest rate of excise duty on a pint of beer in the EU. Frankly, it is past time for the Government to take action on this. Budget 2027 must finally deliver an excise cut. I would be grateful if the Deputy Leader of the House would raise this with the relevant Ministers. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gerard P. Craughwell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerard-P-Craughwell.S.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Gerard-P-Craughwell.S.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Gerard P. Craughwell  This morning, I rise to fulfil the second part of a promise I made to Helen. At the beginning of May, having been diagnosed with cancer of the stomach and pancreas, Helen was sitting in the conservatory on a Sunday morning. When I walked into the room, she said \"It is time we put plans in place.\" The first thing she dealt with was music for her funeral. Helen knows, or knew, that I am a deeply emotional person when it comes to music. She picked a piece by Massenet for the church and the piece \"Song to the Moon\" for when she would leave the church to go to her grave. She said she knew I would cry when I heard \"Ave Maria\" and \"Pie Jesu\" and, in order to save my dignity as I left the church with tears running down my face, she chose \"Song to the Moon\" so that everybody else would be crying with me.  Helen was a State-registered children's nurse. She had qualifications in neurosurgery and had worked with the elderly and so she told me \"There are other things we need to do and we are going to do them today.\" One of these things was something I spoke about yesterday, namely, enduring power of attorney. I know my colleague Senator McDowell fully understands the difficulties relating to enduring power of attorney but she wanted it and, even if hell were to freeze over, she would get it done. The second thing she wanted was an advance healthcare declaration form. For me, this involved sitting with someone I had lived with for 49 years and hearing her express her final wishes as to how she would be treated. You can list specific treatments you do not want and the circumstances in which they are not to be accepted. One of the things you can specify is that you want this decision to apply even if your life is at risk as the result of refusal. Helen went through the various things she did not want under any circumstances. In all cases, she could only be given medical treatment if it was to improve her quality of life and her engagement with her children and grandchildren. As I typed this up for her, the two of us cried quite a lot. It was the most harrowing experience of my life but we did it.  The first time I knew how important the advance healthcare declaration was when she was in St. Vincent's hospital and the consultant oncologist told me that they had advanced healthcare declaration and knew what they could and could not do. When she entered palliative care in the hospital, exactly the same thing happened. When we went to the hospice, it was exactly the same thing. I remember that, at one stage, Helen was getting slightly better and we were debating whether she would be coming home. She said she wondered if she would be discharged. I said this to one of the nurses and the following morning the consultant came in, sat on Helen's bed and said that she had heard that Helen was concerned she might be discharged. She went on to say that the room and the bed were hers for as long as she needed it.  Helen, in her humorous way, looked at her and said, \"You mean until I die.\" That was the truth of it. Helen made me promise that I would deal with these documents, the enduring power of attorney and the advanced health declaration. In completing this advanced health declaration, Helen removed from me and my two children the burden of having to make decisions for her, should we find ourselves in a situation where decisions had to be made.  On the morning before she died - she died at 2 o'clock in the morning - there was a serious problem with respect to the blockage in her bowel. The consultant said to her that they could insert a gastronasal tube to relieve the pressure. Helen looked at her, smiled and said, \"I think you have the form that deals with that.\" There was no gastronasal tube.  In tribute to the bravest, strongest and most caring person I have ever known in my life, I promised her I would mention both of these. We should all have an advanced health declaration form. We should take the burden off those we love in order that decisions would be made by us - by myself, not by somebody else. It is the same with the enduring power of attorney. I know Senator McDowell has spoken on that before. We need to simplify that document without losing the protections. We need to reduce the costs involved in it. I am sorry that I have gone way over time, but may Helen rest in peace. Her strength, courage and determination to do things right should be a benchmark for all of us as we go forward. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gareth Scahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Gareth Scahill  I compliment Senator Craughwell on that particular point. One of the beauties of this House is our ability to raise a particular topic and raise awareness of it. When it comes from lived experience, Helen's legacy could be simplifying that process to future people who experience it. It is an important thing to raise in this House. I compliment the Senator on that.  Last week, I met with an individual who is a recipient of disability allowance. They are supported by our disability services and were talking to me about the cost of living, but they were also talking to me about a number of the supports that they are availing of and the limitations of those supports. While they are receiving the support within one of the national agencies, it requires them, through their medical card, to get regular blood tests. The support service was saying that this was to help them regulate the medication that they were getting on a month-by-month basis. With the medical card that this individual had, they were having to pay \u20ac30 regularly every month to get the blood tests. I know the definition is routine and not routine for patients' conditions, but we should look at the individuals themselves and the services that they are availing of. There is a potential saving to the State with the regulation of the medication that this individual was availing of that would offset that. I would love for that to be looked at. The same individual also spoke to me about their regular need to change their glasses prescription. Due to their mobility issues, they are regularly breaking or losing their glasses. This was something that was not covered under any scheme for them either. It was an ongoing concern.  They also mentioned to me how long they had been waiting to access a dentist. We all know that dental health has a long recognised impact on overall health. The dental treatment services scheme in Ireland is not going very well at the moment. We know that we do not have capacity in the system. In 2020, 13,554 dentists were on that scheme. As of June 2026, 866 dentists were on that scheme. In my home county of Roscommon, back in 2020, 15 dentists had signed up to the scheme. As of now, six dentists are signed up to that scheme. There has been a 60% reduction in the dentists open to that. These figures do not factor in the dentists who are accepting new customers or patients onto that particular scheme. I have mentioned it before. There is a serious capacity issue in the system and there is something we need to do.  When I mention the public scheme, I also have to mention the HSE public community dental service for school-going kids. In Roscommon, they prioritise sixth class students. They are trying to get through that. I think the target was to have all the sixth class cohort completed by July 2026, but when asked for recent information, no data was available. We have an onus to look after second and third class students as well. We are trying to focus solely on the older ones. We might have a discussion on that, if possible. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael McDowell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","memberCode":"Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Michael McDowell  First, the issues raised by Senator Craughwell are important. The enduring power of attorney system that we have is very complex. Many solicitors do not want to become involved in it because of its complexity. What we have done, in good faith, collectively as a Legislature, to improve the lot of vulnerable people and to make provision for their own lack of capacity, is, in fact, an expensive and difficult process. We should have a debate on that subject.  Second, on Wednesday, I made reference to the RT\u00c9 programme on protected disclosures. I said two things which I want to clarify. The first is that I mentioned the improper use of entertainment, including a brothel, in Italy. It happened in Switzerland, according to the protected disclosure of the individual concerned. The second is that I mentioned \u20ac500,000 of ammunition, when, in fact, it was approximately 500,000 rounds of ammunition. I mentioned a destruction cost, which, for some reason, Ireland paid for this defective ammunition in the region of \u20ac120,000. In fact, I think \u20ac160,000 was actually expended on it. I want to clarify those things because these are important matters. I do not want to leave loose threads on these important matters. I will not elaborate further at this stage, but I will have more to say about it at a later stage. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Shane Curley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Shane-Curley.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Shane-Curley.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Shane Curley  I raise the continued closure of Dunguaire Castle in Kinvara, south Galway. Dunguaire is one of the most recognisable castles in Ireland. It is an iconic landmark on the Wild Atlantic Way. It has enormous cultural and historical significance, as well as huge economic importance to Kinvara and south Galway, yet it has now been closed since 2023. What makes that situation particularly frustrating is that the tour buses still come. The tourists still fly over to Ireland to see Dunguaire Castle, but now they can only look in through the gates. It is a sorry sight to drive through the town and to see the people standing out, observing from the gates. It is frustrating. The absurdity of the situation has now attracted international attention, with The New York Times recently reporting on the castle's continued closure and the campaign to have it reopened. We spend millions of euro every year promoting Ireland internationally as a tourist destination. We rightly encourage visitors to come to the west of Ireland, to travel the Wild Atlantic Way and to experience our history and heritage, but what is needed now is a resolution. I am asking the Leader to arrange an urgent debate with the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage on the future of Dunguaire Castle. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Nessa Cosgrove  I want to raise the conversation here and approach the Minister to look at independent radio and the funding of independent broadcasting. I met with representatives of Ocean FM, Shannonside FM and Midwest Radio. The service they provide, particularly in rural areas, is second to none. They are providing a public service, particularly regarding deaths, political coverage, current affairs, school closures and sport. They promote Irish music all the time, particularly local music.  They have been hit with a 39% increase in their levy this year. It is unfair that they are paying a disproportionate levy to compensate other areas of broadcasting. It is not okay. We need to change the Broadcasting Act to look at this. It may be different in bigger cities but where we live in the north west, Ocean FM is the public service. I would not have got elected to politics if it was not for Ocean FM featuring people that are new to politics and relevant current affairs stories. The Minister needs to step up, intervene and look at the levy being charged. There has been a 39% increase, which is crippling independent radio. They go above and beyond their duty in covering current affairs and news but the new funding models mean they have to keep producing additional programmes. It is making it difficult for them to operate the current affairs programmes they do at the moment. Funding streams need to be looked at. Of course, I agree with having a public broadcaster like RT\u00c9 but there is a disproportionate emphasis. Others are providing a service in rural areas in particular and the Minister needs to step up. They provide local jobs and are accessible to TY students. They get a lot of people on placements. They provide a wraparound service to communities. The Minister needs to get real about it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Cathal Byrne  I agree with the comments by Senator Craughwell on the need to reform the enduring power of attorney system. I have said in this Chamber before that the system is not working. It needs legislative change and, ultimately, the goal has to be to make it accessible, user-friendly and fully available throughout the country, which, at the moment, it is not.  I want to raise the lack of early morning commuter trains from Wexford to Dublin. If you live in Gorey, you can get on a train at 5.45 a.m. that will have you in Dublin Connolly at 7.47 a.m., which is time enough to make your way to work. If you live further south in County Wexford, it is not possible to get an early commuter train. If you live in Rosslare, Wexford town or Enniscorthy, the earliest train service does not arrive in Dublin until 8.48 a.m., a full hour after the service from Gorey.  Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann, given the amount of Government investment in rail services, needs to offer that service to people who live in Rosslare, Wexford town or Enniscorthy. They told me at the Oireachtas infrastructure committee that we could be waiting up to two years for this service to be available. All that needs to happen is for extra carriages to be added to the early morning train from Gorey and for it to start further south on the track. I would like the Minister for Transport to come into this Chamber and have an honest discussion about where things are going with early morning commuter train services. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sarah O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Sarah O'Reilly  I want to bring up the issue of our young people leaving the country. Some 68%, or over two thirds, of 18- to 24-year-olds are considering emigrating. We have bright, educated, talented young people who have no hope for their future here. It was sad to listen to them on the news on Tuesday evening, talking of finishing their degrees and emigrating. I understand why. They see their siblings and friends earning nowhere near enough to buy a house at, say \u20ac400,000; or even rent; or, unless they work 24-7, to cover their basic expenses. They are looking at years of saving to get a deposit together and then a mortgage takes a huge chunk of that money. In Cavan you need to be earning \u20ac63,000 per year and in Monaghan it is \u20ac64,000 per year to get an average mortgage. They are looking at Australia, Canada and America and leaving does not seem like such a big decision.  I see echoes of 2008. I have personal experience of that. We are losing a whole generation from our communities and it feels like Government does not care. GAA clubs are struggling for members and young people are leaving our towns and local groups. These are the young people who would have become coaches, teachers and committee members and whose kids would have gone to our local schools.  It cannot be denied demographics in Ireland are shifting. Almost one in four people living here were born somewhere else. In areas like Ballyjamesduff, Cavan town and Carrickmacross, over 30% - that is a third - of people were not born in Ireland. Why would we put so much money into the Irish language, sport, music and culture if there will not be a generation here to carry it on? We cannot build a thriving country on a transient workforce. Ireland should not just be a pit stop where people come for a few years to earn what they can and move on while our own people are forced to move abroad. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Linda Nelson Murray","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Linda Nelson Murray  I am jealous of Senator Byrne talking about extra trains to commute to Dublin. I will talk about commuting but we do not even have one train. I would appreciate a debate with the Minister for Transport on people from commuter counties coming into Dublin. For people travelling from Navan to Dublin the NX bus route is a vital service but for far too many commuters, getting to work or college can feel like a lottery every day. People are dealing with overcrowding at peak times, cancelled services, buses arriving late and journey times that vary enormously from one day to the next. The NTA has acknowledged that capacity is insufficient at peak times, particularly on morning services from Navan to Johnstown. Although this may sound critical, the NX route is a brilliant service. It runs every 20 minutes and when you get it at a later time, it is a great way of getting into Dublin and of coming home. We just need extra buses and extra drivers at peak times. There is congestion on the M3 and through Dublin, and it is causing significant delays.  These are not just statistics. People are leaving home much earlier than they should have to. We all know family time is great for our mental and physical health. It is great for us to have that time but people are having to leave early to make sure they get a seat and arrive at work or college on time. Some passengers report journeys taking two hours or more. At other times, you can get to Dublin from Navan in 45 or 50 minutes. Recent Bus \u00c9ireann service notices show the NX service has been cancelled on a number of occasions. Navan is growing, passenger numbers are growing and demand is clearly there. People need a bus service they can rely on, one that has enough capacity, is on time and gets them from Navan to Dublin without daily uncertainty.  I appreciate the Minister is putting a lot of work into getting the Navan rail service. I commend him on that. He was at the launch of it, which is fantastic, but it will be quite a while before we have the train. The people of Navan should not have to leave an hour early simply because they do not know whether the bus will turn up or not. If we could get a debate on that, I would appreciate it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Victor Boyhan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Victor Boyhan  As Members are dealing with the Order of Business for today at present, I wish to address some concerns. I listened to my colleague, Senator Clonan, who expressed concern about an additional few minutes for statements on citizenship, a really important aspect of our work. I thank the Minister of State for making himself available. I know it is the Minister of State who is due here this afternoon, not the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, as were that the case, we might have a different scenario. However, we have to deal with the mechanisms open to us in this House.  As leader of the Seanad Independent Group, I respectfully ask the Deputy Leader and the Leader to consider an additional few moments. Alternatively, we will have to consider exercising a vote on the adjournment of the House today to make our point, and we will engage further on that. I suggest \"Pragmatism with a big P\". All politicians are familiar with pragmatism. The Order of Business can be amended or changed. Let us crystallise this. We are talking about statements. This is not legislation; these are statements on citizenship in our country. I propose we facilitate a minimum, between anyone, of five or ten minutes. I do not think that is an unreasonable request.  I want to put on the record of the House something I will pursue next week with the relevant sections, including the Seanad Office. The speakers list is a guide for the Cathaoirleach, Leas-Chathaoirleach or Acting Chair. It does not set the agenda of who is speaking. Many parties would have had people on a speaking list yesterday who did not actually come to speak because they had other things going on. It is to assist the Chair, but to suggest that somebody is looking at a speakers list to ascertain the level of interest or the amount of people coming from any particular group to speak is a dangerous precedent which we must not allow.  I want to be clear that I am not suggesting that. I am just saying the matter of who speaks in each group is a matter for the parties, their Whips and their individuals. I respect that, but that goes every way. As regards the suggestion that not too many people have expressed an interest today, they may change their minds in two hours. This is our House. It is open to us to operate within the Standing Orders. I know the Deputy Leader and she knows me. I want to be constructive. If we can facilitate a little flexibility, possibly five to ten minutes, I think we can all get our work done and can look at the system, the mechanisms and the concerns at another time. I would appreciate it if the Deputy Leader would consider that. I know her hands may be tied at this moment, but she might do so between now and when we come back to the next session. I am trying to be helpful. I also want to put a marker down to the Seanad Office on the speakers list and who circulates it. I do not know who gets it, but by close of business today I will know who gets that list every day. It is a guide to the Chair. It is not a guide to the Minister or anybody else as to how we conduct our business under Seanad \u00c9ireann's Standing Orders. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  May I check with you, Senator Boyhan, are you proposing an amendment? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Victor Boyhan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Victor Boyhan  No. I suggest pragmatism and that the Deputy Leader reflect as to what is appropriate and have a chat with the Leader's office. I understand the dynamics. I am not 100% sure about the Minister's availability, but we are talking about five or ten minutes, not 30 minutes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Duffy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mark Duffy  Tomorrow in Ballina will be a very momentous occasion. The official opening of the sensory park in Ballina by the Minister, Dara Calleary, will be the culmination of many years of hard work. This project has been community led and grassroots led from day one. It began during Covid times, when many parents locally and activists within the community felt passionate about responding to the need for sensory spaces and making our town more inclusive and friendlier for young and old who have sensory needs. Following a number of years of work, including incredible volunteer work by volunteers from Ballina Community Clean Up and the FLOW group, the park will officially be opened. The people of Ballina and the north Mayo area have raised a huge amount of money to make it happen. It has been supported by local councillors, council staff and local businesses. It is a real success story and something I believe can be replicated in other places.  It would not have happened without the determination of a working group - I acknowledge them on the record here - of Martin Devaney, David O'Malley, Ryan Cawley and Padraig O'Hora, who will be known to many for his footballing and mountaineering exploits, along with Kevin Loftus and his team at ACT. If I mention some names, I am conscious that I will leave out so many others who have been a driving force every evening in maintaining, planting, weeding and preparing. It is a great example of a public-private partnership where the volunteers have delivered a sensory park within the town. I acknowledge the late Paddy O'Hora, a friend of us all and an incredible force for good within the Ballina community, who passed earlier this year and who was passionate about delivering this park. I also acknowledge his late daughter Linda and his nephew Jack. I thank everyone for getting the project to this stage and look forward to joining its official opening tomorrow. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Conway","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Conway.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Martin-Conway.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Martin Conway  I too acknowledge the very powerful contribution made by Senator Craughwell and the issue of power of attorney, which Senator McDowell and others have commented on. The complexity of that needs to be addressed. Anything that can be done in these Houses in good faith to make this process more transparent, simpler, more straightforward and more understandable, we should not be found wanting on. Perhaps we could have a debate at some stage with the Minister on this issue, where the challenges and the complexities could be outlined and a discussion could start. That would be fitting and appropriate.  We have all been approached by the INTO, spoken to INTO reps in our constituency and attended the organisation's Oireachtas briefing in Buswells a couple of months ago. Its ask is very simple and it is one ask: that the budget fund an extra 1,000 teachers. That is a cost of in or around \u20ac50 million. Normally, the INTO has two, three or four key requests but this year it has one because, unfortunately, we are an outlier when it comes to the pupil-teacher ratio in this country compared with our European colleagues. I propose that the Deputy Leader write to the Minister for Finance and the Minister for education stating that this House would support the request of the INTO to fund 1,000 teachers. We all know the benefit of education. Many of us have benefited from education and we do not want to see standards being compromised in any way due to overcrowding in classrooms. Unfortunately, that is a very big risk in certain areas of this country. The request is reasonable. It is an investment in our future. While there are many pressing, difficult and challenging issues that have to be addressed in this year's budget, particularly around fuel, home heating oil and so on, we cannot forget the importance of education. That is my request. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fiona O'Loughlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Fiona O'Loughlin  We started with Senator Fitzpatrick, who spoke about the horrific tragedy of five young people being killed over the summer in a horrific car accident in which four innocent people were caught up. She spoke also about the need for provision of a national prevention strategy and said the Minister for education should take that on board. During the summer, I was at a presentation by a collective group of people about caring for communities. It sought to address some of these issues. It was a pilot study really because it was the first time it was done in Ireland. Four secondary schools had been surveyed, comprising students in first year, second year and fifth year. The study excluded exam students. There were, from memory, about 188 questions. It was about how those young people felt valued by the school community and family. It showed some important insights. I agree that we need to dig deep. Those five young men must have cared very little for their own lives to go on a journey like that, not to mention caring for other people's lives. As a society, we absolutely have to grapple with this. Education is the key and it starts at primary school. We will look for that.  Senator Fitzpatrick also spoke about the approval for MetroLink and requested that we ask the Ministers for housing and transport to work with the LDA on the Carlton site to see what type of housing can be put there in the city centre. We will action that. The Senator also supported the suggestion from Deputy S\u00e9amus McGrath that we ask the Government to waive stamp duty for first-time buyers as an added financial incentive. We agree with and will support that.  Senator O'Donovan spoke about respite services in west Cork and the shocking situation there whereby 20 families have had to send legal letters. He mentioned a service provider there that apparently has a lot of funding, \u20ac5 million, in a bank account. There does not seem to be any action in relation to that.  The Senator also referred to the Before We Die campaign. I know it is something we all support. Senator Tully spoke about something similar. We will ask the Minister with responsibility for disability and the Minister for Health to look at that situation. It sounds shocking.  Senator Clonan welcomed Sophia, who I had a chance to say hello to, his intern until Christmas. Sophia is very welcome. Senator Clonan extended his sympathies to Senator Craughwell. A number of us had the opportunity to do that during the week. Senator Clonan spoke on the debate on citizenship, as did Senator Boyhan, and the extension of time. While we have been here, I have reached out to see if the Minister can give extra time because we would certainly facilitate that. There is no problem with that at this end but the response from the Minister\u2019s office is that he cannot facilitate it due to being in the D\u00e1il and some other commitments. We can engage further but at this point that is the response. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Victor Boyhan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Victor Boyhan  I appreciate that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fiona O'Loughlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Fiona O'Loughlin  Senator Clonan also spoke about the personalised budget Private Member's Bill he has introduced and which has been time delayed. I know the Minister with responsibility for disability is working on personalised budgets. There was an issue with the pilot project. It was very much undersubscribed which was a shame for the efforts to try to assess responses. We are looking for debate on a number of issues which were raised today which are related to disability. We have reached out and are looking for a debate next week or the week after with the Minister on the issues that have been raised.  Senator Tully spoke about a 78-year-old gentleman with a daughter with Down's syndrome and the lack of residential care. The Senator has helped to prepare a business case with this family and reached out to providers. It is a shame if a provider has been identified, as the dad feels, but nothing has been done in relation to it. That is something we will cover in the debate with the Minister in the next few weeks.  Senator Tully also commended Nikita Hand on \u201cPrime Time\u201d last night. I did not see it but fair play, she has really shone a light. It takes an awful lot of courage to stand up and be as vocal as she has. I have heard her on the radio a number of times. We have to support victims in terms of trying to make it easier for other victims down the line.  Senators Stephenson and O\u2019Reilly spoke about the new research from the National Youth Council on how young people feel about the country that we live in. One of the things that struck me when I saw it was that 71% of young people felt they would have a better life outside of Ireland. I have to say it upset me and concerned me but I took the opportunity to look to Mark Henry who, as an independent individual, has a really interesting Twitter or X feed in relation to fact-finding and research. We can end up in a doomscroll about our country, which we are so proud to represent. All of us work to try to make life better for everyone. I say the Senators are adding to that doom and gloom in respect of what they are saying. If they believe it they should be actively working to try to make it better in a pragmatic way. I took the opportunity to look at some of the statistics that Mark Henry had in the last few days. Ireland has one of the highest rates of youth employment in the EU. It is the seventh most competitive country in the world. It is very well ranked because of a strong economy, good government efficiency and positive business practices. Senator O\u2019Reilly spoke about young people going to Australia but it is a fact - and in Ireland we absolutely have challenges, including a lot of challenges around housing - that in Ireland, the cost of a house in Dublin is five times the median household income. In Sydney it is 14 times the median income. People might feel that it is a better world out there but take some of the things that are provided. Look at the education we have in Ireland. Look at the employment opportunities. Irish people now have twice as much income as they had 30 years ago. I think we all need to remind ourselves of that when we hear negativity. If we were to listen to one of the parties mentioned here, in particular, they do not want any data centres in Ireland. We are struggling with it in Kildare at the moment. There is a concern about energy use, absolutely, but we got an independent briefing because data centres are being proposed for Kildare. There is only one plugged into the grid at the moment. It and every future data centre has to be able to provide 80% of its own energy. Data centres are really important to the economy in terms of attracting investment. If we were to go down the line of saying we are not going to progress with any of this as the Senator\u2019s party wants, there would not be good jobs for our youth so we need to be really mindful of the message that we are giving to our young people. We want to empower them to have good, positive lives here in our country. If, by choice, they wish to travel abroad for a few years, as I did myself, that is wonderful but we will welcome them home with open arms. Last year, the statistics showed that 35,000 people emigrated but 30,000 people came back. The level of emigration is not as high as would be suggested.  Senator Murphy O\u2019Mahony spoke about school escorts and that their pay only starts when the first child comes onto the bus - that is something that has to be looked at \u2013 and also that the bus escorts are not paid for summer holidays. They are doing a very valuable job. We will look for a debate with the Minister.  Senator McCarthy spoke as chair of the SURF task force. I want to thank him for the really important work that he does. He spoke about the situation where one of its services is now in an industrial estate because it is very difficult to find space in Newbridge. I am looking for a space at the moment for a Jigsaw service. Space is at a premium. Our developing towns do not have an awful lot of space for these services. We need to work collectively to make sure those services are there for those who need them. Also, pharmacies should be supporting people. We will look for a debate with the Minister of State, Deputy Murnane O\u2019Connor.  Senator McCormack spoke about the HSE audit of recruitment for Portlaoise hospital and her concern about staffing levels. We support her. Portlaoise hospital is a fine hospital and we need to do everything we can to make sure there is adequate and relevant staff.  Senator Crowe also offered his sympathies to Senator Craughwell and spoke about the challenges for local pubs. He spoke about what is happening with the UK. Fair play to the Prime Minister, Andy Burnham. He has really grasped that. It is important because, as we have spoken about here many times before, our rural pubs are far more than just a place to provide alcoholic drink. They are a place for people to meet, to congregate and to socialise and we should support them. We will give that message to the Minister.  Senator Craughwell spoke again very movingly about the loss of his wife and really difficult conversations they had to have prior to her passing. He spoke during the week about the power of attorney and spoke today about the advanced healthcare declaration form, which is something we should all encourage and support our families, friends and communities to take because none of us know either the day or the time. Again, I offer our very deepest sympathies to Senator Craughwell. We can see that sometimes out of the deepest, darkest moments there are learning points for all of us that we can try to make the path a little bit easier for others.  Senator Scahill spoke about the disability allowance and the cost of living and limitation of support to an individual he was speaking to during the week, particularly about the need to have regular blood tests needed to help alleviate a condition.  Even with a medical card, \u20ac30 is a lot of money and I agree that needs to be looked at. It just happens to be the same individual but it could be anyone else. There is a regular need to change glasses subscription which is not covered, and to access to dentists. These are all basics: our sight, our teeth and the ability to be able to manage and monitor a condition any one of us could have. The Senator spoke about the 60% reduction in dentists in Roscommon and about the capacity issue. We will look for debate with the Minister for Health on that.  Senator McDowell continued the conversation that Senator Craughwell started about the enduring power of attorney and about how complex it is. It is so complex that many solicitors will not touch it. We absolutely need to have a debate. I have heard it a few times from different people, both inside and outside the Chamber. We should ask the justice committee to examine it, so maybe we can ask some Senators here to put it on the work programme. It is not going to be done easily. Senator McDowell also referred to the \"Prime Time\" debate and protected disclosures. He clarified two elements of his own contribution. I ask that the record shows the two distinctions that the Senator has made today to reflect that.  Senator Curley spoke about Dunguaire Castle in Kinvara, which closed in 2023. I am not sure whether that is an OPW issue or not. The Senator wants a debate. I ask him to table a Commencement matter about that.  Senator Cosgrove spoke about independent radio stations. They provide a really important public service, particularly in rural Ireland. She spoke about the levy increase. The funding system needs to be looked at. We will have the Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill here in October, so we will have an opportunity to raise our voices about it.  Senator Byrne also spoke about the power of attorney and the need to reform it. He spoke about the lack of early morning commuter train from Wexford. Gorey has one early, but Enniscorthy, Wexford and Rosslare have the first train at 8.48 a.m. That is simply not good enough. We will ask the Minister about it. To be fair, Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann is good with its engagement with Members. My car broke down in west Cork three weeks ago and I have not had a car since because we are waiting for parts from the UK and it is still in Cork, so I have had to rely on public transport ever since. I feel so lucky every time I go to the train station that I am able to get that early train. It is a huge issue and it would make such a difference to people.  I addressed the points that Senator O'Reilly raised.  Senator Nelson Murray spoke about the need for reliable bus and train services for Meath. We know the train is coming slowly but there are concerns about the reliability of the bus service. Meath as a commuter county absolutely deserves it.  Senator Boyhan asked for extra time and I have addressed that. He also spoke about the speaker's guide. I do not know whether there was some comment in the past two days that I missed. Maybe the Senator and I will speak privately about that afterwards. He is right that it is up to each party group to be able to provide it. It is a guide, but it is flexible. Any time I have been here and I have needed the Chair, the Cathaoirleach, or the Leas-Chathaoirleach to show flexibility, they did, but the Senator and I can have a conversation later.  Senator Duffy spoke about Ballina and the official opening of the sensory park, which will be tomorrow. It has been community-led and grassroots-led. It is fantastic. I know the Senator acknowledges the working group, particularly the late Paddy O'Hora, who have worked there along with Accelerating Change Together, ACT. The first time I ever went to a sensory park was the Delta Centre in Carlow. It was a centre for people with intellectual disability. It inspired me when I saw young people with severe intellectual disabilities who found it difficult to communicate responded to the sensory park. That was probably 30 years ago. It is wonderful to see them in other places. The work that goes into the maintaining and the planting is huge.  Senator Conway spoke again, supporting the power of attorney reform that is needed. He spoke about the INTO, its briefings, and the fact that it is requesting 1,000 extra teachers in the budget. I think we would all support that request. We will write to the Minister about it. We have the best educated young people in the world nearly and we do that by having great teachers and school communities that support them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  Before I put the question on the Order of Business, I welcome the working party on general affairs from the Joint Committee on European Affairs. I know they are the first of two groups. They are very welcome. I hope they enjoy your visit to the Houses of the Oireachtas and especially to the Seanad. Is the Order of Business agreed? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael McDowell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","memberCode":"Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Michael McDowell  It is not agreed on the basis that we do not have leaders and Whips meetings in advance anymore. I want the message to get through that that has to be reinstated. We cannot have a situation where a piece of paper appears and that is the consultation that takes place in the House. Of course there will be limited numbers of speakers if they are told that they have two minutes to speak on citizenship. Who is going to sit here for hours on end and say they have something important to say in two minutes? Nobody is going to do that. I fully appreciate that the Deputy Leader is saying to us today that there is a ministerial difficulty, but that could have been avoided if there had been a discussion. We could have had it on a different day rather than just giving people 120 seconds to comment on this matter. It is not acceptable. I say that in an amicable way. There was a system of leaders and Whips meetings every week where these things were discussed in advance and it has evaporated for some reason since Senator Kyne became Deputy Kyne. We have to do something about it. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question, \"That the Order of Business be agreed to.\", put and declared carried."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"An tOrd Gn\u00f3 - Order of Business"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_9","debateType":"orderofBusiness","bill":null,"showAs":"Report of the Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media: Motion","counts":{"speechCount":23,"speakerCount":12},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_9","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Evanne N\u00ed Chuilinn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Evanne-N\u00ed-Chuilinn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Evanne-N\u00ed-Chuilinn.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Linda Nelson Murray","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alison Comyn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Charlie McConalogue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Charlie-McConalogue.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Charlie-McConalogue.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria McCormack","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-McCormack.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Maria-McCormack.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pat Casey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gareth Scahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Noel O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Noel-O'Donovan.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Noel-O'Donovan.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Kelleher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Kelleher.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Garret-Kelleher.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Duffy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  The combined speeches of the proposer and seconder shall not exceed 16 minutes, and all other Senators have six minutes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Evanne N\u00ed Chuilinn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Evanne-N\u00ed-Chuilinn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Evanne-N\u00ed-Chuilinn.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Evanne N\u00ed Chuilinn  I move:  That, under Standing Order 87(1)(b), Seanad \u00c9ireann shall take note of the Report of the Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media entitled 'Report on Inclusion in Sport', and progress on the implementation of the recommendations contained in the report, copies of which were laid before Seanad \u00c9ireann on 9th April, 2024. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Linda Nelson Murray","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Linda Nelson Murray  I second the motion. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  Before I call Senator N\u00ed Chuilinn I welcome the working party on general affairs and their committee guests. I understand they are guests of the European affairs committee, and they are all welcome today. I hope they enjoy their visit to Leinster House. I would also like to acknowledge Deputy P\u00e1draig O'Sullivan in the Gallery, who has with him Finbar and Carl Harrington. They are welcome and I hope they also enjoy their visit to Leinster House, especially Seanad \u00c9ireann. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Evanne N\u00ed Chuilinn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Evanne-N\u00ed-Chuilinn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Evanne-N\u00ed-Chuilinn.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Evanne N\u00ed Chuilinn  I am sharing time with Senator Nelson Murray at 12 minutes and four minutes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  Is that agreed? Agreed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Evanne N\u00ed Chuilinn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Evanne-N\u00ed-Chuilinn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Evanne-N\u00ed-Chuilinn.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Evanne N\u00ed Chuilinn  Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an Aire St\u00e1it, an Teachta McConalogue, as ucht a bheith anseo. We have an important report to discuss. This was from the previous iteration of the D\u00e1il and Seanad. It is a 2024 report on inclusion in sport by the sport committee. There were 17 recommendations. I am sure colleagues will speak to many of the recommendations. I will speak to approximately five of them. Inclusion in sport has never been more important, whether we are talking about women, disability, the LGBTQI+ community and ethnic minorities. It has never been a more important conversation, so it is important we revisit this report and look at where we are with the recommendations. I understand the report was published shortly before the most recent general election, so I am sure it has been difficult one to get back up and running with the recommendations. We will see where we are.  I first mention recommendation 15 about how \"national governing bodies and Sport Ireland should support the growth of LQBTQIA+ orientated ... clubs.\" I will raise something on behalf of Senator Harmon who cannot be here. Before the summer recess, we raised a joint Commencement matter where we asked that this report be discussed. This is being raised on her behalf. I refer to the situation facing the women's team at Na Laochra Aeracha, Cork's LGBTQ+ inclusive GAA club. The women want to play Gaelic football and compete in the league, but they have been unable to properly establish the team because of the way the 2010 boundary is being applied. I am sure lots of Senators are aware of the 2010 boundary and the rules in Gaelic football. Some of the women who want to play for Na Laochra Aeracha live outside of that boundary, and as a result the club has been unable to get the numbers it needs to properly establish the women's team and play in the league. This is particularly difficult to understand when the LGBTQ+ inclusive clubs in Dublin and Belfast are able to participate in their respective competitions. There needs to be a consistent and transparent approach to how these rules are applied. Na Laochra Aeracha exists for an important reason. It provides an inclusive space for LGBTQ+ people and allies to participate in Gaelic games. For some members, including women returning to sport after many years away, that particular environment is what has enabled them to come back to Gaelic football in the first place. We know that retaining women and people from marginalised communities in sport is already a challenge. Rules should facilitate participation wherever possible rather than create unnecessary barriers to it. Senator Harmon is once again asking that the application of the 2010 boundary be reviewed and that the LGFA engage with Na Laochra Aeracha to find a practical solution that allows these women to register with their club and play competitive football. If inclusive clubs can operate and compete in Dublin and Belfast, we need to establish a clear and transparent route that allows the women of Na Laochra Aeracha in Cork to do the same. These women simply want to play football with their club. We should be doing everything reasonably possible to facilitate that. That is really reflected in recommendation 15 of this report.  A related matter is recommendation 16, which states that \"The Department of Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media and Sport Ireland should support the hosting of a major international LGBTQIA+ multi sport tournament.\" I know that is probably a big ask and would probably take years of planning, but we have proven that we are really good at sport tourism here. We have had the college football and the NFL. We will obviously have the Ryder Cup. We know how to put on a show and sell tickets, and go to games and events. I think the Department and Sport Ireland could maybe look at a festival of football or something for the LGBTQIA+ community. It certainly should be explored.  Recommendation 13 states:  Visibility is critical to removing barriers to inclusion in sport. Public service media should commit to broadcasting women\u2019s sport on an equal basis to men\u2019s sport.  An interesting line is that \"Broadcasting of disability sports should not be limited to the Paralympic Games.\" That is one I feel strongly about. Paralympic sport is elite sport. It is sport for people with an impairment or disability, but these are elite athletes. We talk about Orla Comerford, Ellen Keane and R\u00f3is\u00edn N\u00ed R\u00edain. These women are winning medals at world level and sometimes, in the case of Orla Comerford, competing in able-bodied races and winning even though she is T13 class vision impairment in the Paralympic Games. It is a conversation that should be had between the Department, Sport Ireland and the national broadcaster. There is absolutely no reason we should have to wait four years to see paralympic and disability sport, and particularly elite level para sport, on our airwaves.  Recommendation 11 states:  There should be a consistency of messaging across sports regarding acceptable behaviour. National governing bodies should ... [encourage] ... best practice ... on a multisports basis.  This is something I raised in the Seanad previously and it is about integrity in sport. It is something I will raise again. I think we need to look at a sport integrity unit. As the Minister of State knows, the next sport policy will be written next year and perhaps the integrity of sport is something that could be explored, whether that is safeguarding, anti-doping, corruption or match fixing. These are all things that were probably not spoken about when the most recent sport policy was written in 2014 or 2015. It is something that could be looked at.  I will talk about recommendation 12:  There is a need for accountability mechanisms for sporting organisations in receipt of public funds that do not meet high standards of inclusion. Such organisations must adopt robust procedures as part of their governance codes regarding discriminatory or abusive conduct.  There is one thing I want to home in on in that recommendation. It is about equality and inclusion. Again, we have had a lot of conversations about creating equal spaces and spaces that are inclusive for all. One of the most recent is the debate about integration of the GAA. Obviously, we have seen in the past couple of weeks that the process has reached a roadblock. It will be interesting to hear the Minister of State's thoughts about where that is, and whether the steering group is back up and running with a new chair. I will read into the record a statement I thought was powerful from the Mayo Ladies Gaelic Football Association, LGFA. I will not read the full statement because it is very long, but I think it gives a flavour of what has transpired and how people are feeling about it on the ground:  On the eighth of September, Dr Mary McAleese resigned as independent chair of the Steering Group on Integration, after the GAA told the group it could not commit to the 2027 timeline that all three associations voted for in 2022 and confirmed in 2024. She said she was \u201cabsolutely devastated\u201d. She said the commitment to integration had \u201cevaporated\u201d.  The GAA\u2019s response was that it is \u201cjust not ready\u201d, that the deadline was \u201ctoo ambitious\u201d, and that its commitment remains \u201cfirm and absolute\u201d. Its president has since explained that money was the sticking point before pivoting back to practicality.  [...]  In November 2025 every county in Ireland was instructed by the Steering Group to set up a County Integration Committee: two people from each association, an independent chair, monthly meetings with minutes returned to Croke Park. The terms of reference were broad, covering fixtures, facilities, finance and governance.  In Mayo, no such meeting has taken place in 2026. Not one. No minutes have been returned. As far as we can establish, that is true across this entire province and most of the country.  That is how this was done. Not with a decision. With inaction, without a word.  The statement continues:  Tradition dictates that everything defaults to the GAA and always has. The facilities, the funding, the first pick of dates, the coaches, the supporters, the media routine, the sponsorship, the volunteers, the status. The advantage of a 90-year head start, reinforced by hundreds of millions of euros of public investment, cannot be overcome through goodwill alone.  Institutions built around men develop structures that suit men. These structures are now held up as insurmountable practical constraints. Only two dressing rooms, only one good pitch, the standard of the toilets. We understand entirely how that happened.  But you cannot build something for one half of a community and then point to the state of the building as the reason that the other half must wait to come inside.  [...]  Dr Mary McAleese gave four years to integration and was called offensive for describing what she found. Mary turned on the big light. She did the hard part. The disparity can no longer be treated as something people simply did not know about.  [...]  We're already well into extra time.  Equality is always impractical until it is inevitable. The GAA can lead this change and take pride in it. That means turning its commitment into a timetable people can trust, shared decisions and access that women and girls can rely on.  We love the GAA, and you cannot love something honestly and lie about it at the same time.  These extracts from the statement by Mayo LGFA fit well into this discussion on inclusion in sport and they are something we should probably reflect on. I would be interested in the Minister of State's thoughts on the integration process given that we are talking about inclusion in sport. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  I welcome students from Blessington Educate Together National School who are guests of Deputy Jennifer Whitmore. I hope they enjoy their visit. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Linda Nelson Murray","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Linda Nelson Murray  I thank the Minister of State for coming to the House to discuss this today. I want to talk about something very simple with regard to inclusion in sport. Sometimes we talk about inclusion in terms of strategies, policies, targets and funding programmes. Inclusion is also something as basic as being able to go to the toilet. The joint committee's report on inclusion in sport, published in 2024, made it very clear that facilities are a fundamental part of inclusion. The evidence in the report is quite stark. The FAI told the committee that more than 30% of grassroots clubs do not have toilets or changing facilities designated for female players. The Camogie Association told the committee that female players do not always receive the same recognition and access to facilities as their male counterparts.  When we talk about encouraging girls and women into sport, we have to ask ourselves the very basic question of whether we are actually providing the facilities that tell them they are welcome. Recently I shared a photograph on social media of a helmet and hurl outside a toilet which got something like 150,000 views. In April I attended a division 2 camogie match between Meath and Kerry. Unfortunately Meath lost by a point. On my way in I asked for the toilets and saw a female player run out of the public toilets and onto the field. This was someone at the top of their game. I was advised to go to the referee's toilets as they would be less busy. That toilet is where I saw the helmet and the hurl. I could not believe that another player was in that toilet but, as sure as anything, a Kerry player ran out, picked up her hurl and helmet and ran out onto the field. This might seem like a small thing but I do not think it is. Imagine being a young girl seeing this, as my two children did that day. My children are aged ten and 11. People present to play a sport, ready, for example, to participate in a county final, but when nature calls the facilities available are simply not adequate. This sends a message.  We need to be very careful about the messages we send to young girls because the evidence shows they are already participating in physical activities at lower levels than boys. The committee's report highlighted Sport Ireland's evidence, which shows that just 13% of primary school girls meet the WHO physical activity guidelines compared to 23% of boys. At post-primary level it is 7% compared to 14% of boys. If girls want to stay involved in sport, we have to remove the barriers and not add to them. These barriers are not just about facilities. They include safety, access to training times, a lack of female coaches and leaders, sexist behaviour and language, the impact of caring responsibilities and whether girls see people like themselves represented and valued in sport. I was very blessed to go to the Katie Taylor fight a couple of weeks ago and I was proud to bring my girls. We only have to go and look at something like this to see how men and women can have somebody they can look up to. It was incredible and I do not think I will ever witness an atmosphere like it again.  The report made 17 recommendations, including investment in accessible and fit-for-purpose facilities. There is an important principle here. We cannot call a sporting facility inclusive if the basic facilities are not inclusive. It is no good having a fantastic pitch if there is no appropriate changing room. It is no good encouraging girls into sport if there is no adequate toilet. It is no good telling women they are welcome if the infrastructure tells them otherwise. We have made enormous progress on women's sport in Ireland compared to when I was young and we should recognise this. My two girls play football in one club and camogie in another. They are two brilliant clubs and I have to say they have the very best coaches who give up their time voluntarily and are such amazing advocates for both sports. I love nothing more than watching GAA. Inclusion is not achieved simply because participation numbers improve or because more women are competing at elite level. It is achieved when a young girl can walk into her local club and know the facilities, coaching, environment and culture were designed with her in mind as well. We need to take the recommendations in this report seriously. When Government funding goes into supporting infrastructure, inclusion should not be an optional extra.  I want to point out that two students from my school, St. Joseph's Mercy Secondary School in Navan, County Meath, contributed to the menstruation part of the report and I commend them on this. Accessible facilities, appropriate toilets and changing rooms, safety, transport and equal access should be part of the very basic standard. Ultimately, inclusion in sport should be very simple because if we want every child to have the opportunity to participate, we have to make sure every child can actually participate. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alison Comyn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alison Comyn  The Minister of State is very welcome to the Chamber and I thank him very much for coming in. I welcome the report. Fianna F\u00e1il is committed to sport for all, ensuring that everyone, regardless of age, gender, background or ability, has the opportunity to participate in sport and physical activity of any kind. I acknowledge the work of the Minister of State with responsibility for sport, Deputy McConalogue, and the significant strides that have been made in participation and investment. We have seen record core funding through Sport Ireland alongside two major capital programmes, namely, the community sports facility fund and the large-scale sports infrastructure fund. Further opportunities are coming under these programmes, with details and application dates to be confirmed shortly. I know the Minister of State will outline some of the significant funding when he responds to the debate.  Sport for all cannot simply be measured by how much money we allocate. It has to be measured by who gets to use the facilities we build and whether the barriers identified in the joint committee's 2024 report are being removed. When I was driving here today I was thinking that a rugby ball does not know the gender of the person passing it, a basketball does not know whether the player bouncing it is standing on two feet or sitting in a wheelchair, and a running track does not care about the colour of someone's skin, how much money they have, who they love, where they were born or what their postcode is. Sport does not exclude people but people can exclude people as can systems. Traditions can even exclude people. This is why when we talk about inclusion in sport we should talk about removing these barriers which, let us be honest, should never have been there in the first place.  The report calls for stronger leadership and accountability on inclusion, better access to facilities and transport, appropriate training for coaches, greater representation of women in leadership and greater visibility for women's sports. These are all very necessary recommendations. There has been progress, with participation at record levels and the gender participation gap narrowing considerably, but participation is only one measure of inclusion. As we have heard today, we can let girl join a club and still give boys the best pitch, we can have a women's team at the highest level and still give them the worst training time or the worst facilities, and we can celebrate our female athletes when they bring home global medals while leaving women outside the rooms where important decisions are made.  This brings me to the recent resignation of former President, Mary McAleese, as independent chair of the steering group on integration of the GAA, the LGFA and Camogie Association, which has already been mentioned. These three associations had committed to full integration by 2027 but Dr. McAleese stepped down after the GAA said it could no longer commit to that definitive timeline. She raised serious concerns about the place of women in decision-making at the highest level of Gaelic games. This was at the committee I sit on with my colleague, Senator N\u00ed Chuilinn. We got the impression quite early on that the GAA was not going to make that deadline. The GAA, of course, has strongly rejected accusations of misogyny and has pointed instead to organisational and financial difficulties but these different positions should be acknowledged. The timetable has slipped at a time when we should be accelerating progress. Equality has to mean something in practice. If we say a women's team is equal, this should be reflected in pitches, training times, funding and resources and, crucially, decision-making at the top table.  The 2024 report also addressed the visibility of women in sport. In 2025, just 18% of national sports news coverage devoted its time to women's sport. Yet, if anybody doubts the audience for women's sport, they should know that more than 80,000 people packed Croke Park only weeks ago for Katie Taylor's final fight, while the RT\u00c9 televised audience peaked at 1.6 million. That is hardly niche at this stage. Of course, Katie Taylor does what Kate Taylor does and she won, ending an extraordinary career as a three times undisputed world champion. There is a huge lesson in that, namely, give women's sport the stage and the coverage and the people will come.  Inclusion cannot simply be shorthand for gender equality alone. Again, the report addresses the barriers experienced by people with disabilities and people from disadvantaged socioeconomic backgrounds. In 2024, participation among people with disabilities stood at just 32%, with the socioeconomic participation gap at 19 percentage points. Membership fees, equipment, transport and access to suitable facilities can all determine whether someone plays a sport. Disability inclusion has to mean more than putting a symbol or sticker on a clubhouse door; it needs a hell of a lot more. Can someone actually use the facilities, access appropriate coaching and get to the training? These are the practical tests of inclusion.  As has been outlined, we have made significant progress and invested hugely in Irish sport, something we will hear from the Minister of State in a few moments. The 2024 report gave us a clear set of recommendations. Our task now is to measure what has happened as a result, identify where the barriers remain and keep improving them. Ultimately, sport for all has to mean exactly what it says. As I said, the ball does not care who kicks it, the track does not care who runs on it and the basketball does not care who scores, and neither should we. Our job is to make sure that every single person who wants to play sport is included and allowed to play. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  I welcome the Minister of State and the officials from his Department and thank them for coming before the Seanad to discuss this important issue. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Charlie McConalogue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Charlie-McConalogue.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Charlie-McConalogue.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Culture, Communications and Sport (Deputy Charlie McConalogue)  I thank the Cathaoirleach and Senators N\u00ed Chuilinn and Harmon for raising this matter. I thank Senators Nelson Murray and Comyn for their contributions. I look forward to the remaining contributions and thank all for taking the time to be here to discuss what is an important topic. I acknowledge the time being given on the floor of the Seanad to ensuring that a report which had a lot of time put into it by a previous Oireachtas committee remains alive and actioned.  It is an opportune time to review the recommendations of the 2024 report on inclusion in sport published by the committee, particularly in light of the preparations under way for a new ten-year national sports policy to run from 2028. The current national sports policy sets out a vision for sport in the country that emphasises a sport for all ethos and which prioritises inclusion in sport and participation for under-represented cohorts. While more work is undoubtedly needed to remove any and all barriers to participation, I am pleased that substantial progress has been made since the inception of the national sports policy in 2017 on the inclusion of women, people with disabilities, members of the LGBTQ+ community, older people and those from disadvantaged communities.  With respect to the inclusion of women in sport, which is identified as a key issue in the report, the national sports policy set a target to eliminate the gender participation gap by the time of the strategy's conclusion in 2027. The Irish Sports Monitor report for 2025 found that active sport participation levels among women is at 46%, an increase of five percentage points from the 2017 baseline. This progress is significant and reflects the substantial work of the sector in this area.  However, it is regrettable that the 2025 monitor also revealed that the gender participation gap has widened slightly, from 3% to 4%. This highlights the continued need for targeted investment and programme design to meet the 2027 target which my Department and Sport Ireland remain committed to delivering. As evidence of that commitment, in July of this year we announced \u20ac4 million in funding for the women in sport programme for 2026, which is double the amount allocated in 2022.  Beyond funding, recommendations 13 and 14 of the report rightly point out that visibility is critical to removing barriers to underrepresented groups, including women. For this reason, visibility, alongside active participation and representation in leadership, is a key pillar of Sport Ireland\u2019s women in sport policy. On this front, Sport Ireland launched the first ever study of gender balance in sports media coverage in March of this year. The results of that study highlighted that women\u2019s sport remains significantly underrepresented in the media. I, therefore welcome, the Future of Media Commission\u2019s call for the development of a diversity and inclusion strategy for sports reporting and broadcasting, and I am glad Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n is also currently in the process of developing a sports strategy in consultation with Sport Ireland.  Achieving genuine gender balance in sports media requires a system-wide approach where we challenge deeply ingrained and outdated perceptions. The lack of viewership of women's sports is often used to justify low coverage but studies have shown that promoted properly, they can attract significant audiences. Senator Comyn outlined the most clear recent example of that with the wonderful national attention and record audience we saw for Katie Taylor's career finale in Croke Park. It was a wonderful tribute to her career and an appropriate way for her to finish her career. She was a trailblazer once again for women in sport. We should all take encouragement from the viewership of 1.6 million the audience reached that night, greater than the peak viewership of the 2026 World Cup and the all-Ireland hurling finals. This highlights the eagerness of the Irish people to support their female athletes and the appetite that exists for appropriate and extensive media coverage of women\u2019s sport. As such, I would like to emphasise that a more balanced media landscape in sport represents an opportunity for broadcasters, not sacrifice.  Gender equality across sport is a Government priority and, while not directly involved in the process, we are very supportive of the integration of the three associations within a unified single structure for Gaelic games. While the precise roadmap for integration is a matter for the GAA, the LGFA and the Camogie Association and their memberships, I urge all parties to commit to a clear and defined process and timeframe for integration. In this regard, the Minister, Deputy O'Donovan, and I have written to the associations and have asked them to provide quarterly updates to Sport Ireland on progress. I understand they are working towards the appointment of a new chairperson on 5 October.  Disability inclusion in sport represents another key area of priority for my Department and is identified as a critical issue in the committee's report. It is worth noting that Sport Ireland launched its statement of commitment to and action on disability inclusion in sport in November 2024, after the report was published. In addition, I was pleased that increased funding provided to sport in budget 2025 enabled Sport Ireland to establish a dedicated disability in sport funding stream and to appoint a disability in sport lead. This role has the potential to be transformational, and we are already seeing the benefits of having a lead to co-ordinate with national governing bodies, local sports partnerships and other sporting bodies to develop and promote the inclusion of people with disabilities in sport.  The most recent Irish Sports Monitor revealed that participation among people with disabilities reached a record high of 34% in 2025 and the gap between people with and without disabilities narrowed to 19 percentage points, compared with 22 points in 2024. These findings point to the progress that has been made. However, it is very clear that the participation gap remains too high. I would like to assure Senators that my Department and Sport Ireland remain committed to making this gap a thing of the past.  Likewise, with regard to visibility for people with disabilities in sport, which is highlighted in recommendation 14 of the report, it is worth noting that the first ever disability in sport week hosted by Sport Ireland took place in December 2025. The events over the week highlighted the achievements of athletes with disabilities and showcased inclusive programmes, local champions and inspiring athletes under the five pillars of the Sport Ireland disability in sport policy. The 2026 event of this kind will take place from 1 to 7 December, and it is envisaged that it will take place annually to coincide with the International Day of Persons with Disabilities.  Events like these have the potential to serve as catalysts for making our sporting community more inclusive. They provide critical opportunities to strengthen partnerships and highlight best practice in order that every person with a disability can step into a club, a pool, a pitch or a gym and feel that it is a place for them.  Additionally, with respect to the inclusion of the LGBTQ+ community, the report suggested a number of recommendations. Among these was the need for guidance regarding transgender and non-binary inclusion in sport and physical activity, expressed in key recommendation 17. Sport Ireland has since published a guidance document in this area following detailed stakeholder consultation. Sport Ireland has also delivered in-person and online workshops to enable the national governing bodies to research, design and publish their own policies on transgender and non-binary inclusion in their sports.  In line with recommendation 14 of the report on the visibility of sport for the LGBTQ+ community, Sport Ireland also conducts its Let\u2019s Get Visible campaign on an annual basis to coincide with Pride month. The campaign seeks to highlight the sporting achievements of LGBTQ+ people and acknowledge the importance of their visibility and representation in the sports sector. Under recommendation 15, the committee\u2019s report also advised that support be given to the growth of LGBTQ+ orientated sports clubs. On this front, I am pleased to report that in 2025, Sport Ireland supported Clare Sports Partnership and Sporting Pride to pilot and implement a bespoke LGBTQ+ advocates training programme for other local sports partnerships, national governing bodies and sports clubs. The programme provides direct support to existing clubs to become more inclusive towards the LGBTQ+ community or to develop their own dedicated LGBTQ+ sports club. While more work is needed to eliminate the participation gap between LGBTQ+ persons and heterosexual persons, which currently stands at 4%, I am nonetheless pleased that progress is being made in the sector.  In particular, I would like to report that in October last year, Sport Ireland published its Spotlight on Participation in Sport report, which showed sports participation by members of the LGBTQ+ community has increased by 9% since 2021 from 49% to 58%. This indicates a very positive momentum that I am keen to build on in order that members of the LGBTQ+ community have the same opportunity to enjoy the benefits of sport.  The committee\u2019s report also makes a couple of recommendations with regard to the hosting of major events. Recommendation 3 of the report notes that inclusion of sport dividends ought to be considered when assessing proposals for hosting such events. I acknowledge that a significant potential benefit of hosting major international sporting events is that they can encourage active participation and inclusivity in the particular sport. For example, data from the United States revealed a record surge in soccer participation, including among women and ethnic minorities, before and during their hosting of the World Cup in the summer. As such, a key consideration in my Department\u2019s assessment and evaluation of events, as well as in determining which major international sporting events should be supported, is the social inclusion legacy that the event can deliver. This includes the extent to which the event can increase participation and ensure that people of all ages and backgrounds have opportunities to participate and engage in the sport.  Another key part of the assessment process is understanding the social benefits to the local community. Social inclusion will continue to be a key factor in determining which events the Government supports and will be an important consideration in the context of the further development of the major international sports events strategy framework. Therefore, I can say that any proposal to host a major international LGBTQ+ event as recommended in the report under recommendation 16 would be considered in this context.  Beyond this, recommendations 7 through 9 of the report speak to the need for appropriate training to be delivered throughout the sports sector in the area of inclusion. As I am sure Senators will agree, volunteers and coaches are the backbone of the sports sector in Ireland and as such, an inclusive environment depends on supporting them with the necessary training and resources. To this point, in 2024 Sport Ireland made equality, diversity and inclusion, EDI, and anti-racism workshops available to over 60 national governing bodies of sport, 29 local sports partnerships and a number of other recognised bodies in the sector. In addition to this provision, in 2025, \u20ac2 million was awarded to national governing bodies and local sports partnerships as part of dormant accounts funding via the equality, diversity and inclusion fund. This supports projects, including relevant training, to remove barriers to participation in sport for individuals from diverse and under-represented communities.  Likewise, the need to deliver training for the coaching of women and girls in sport, which was identified in recommendation 8 of the report, is something that Sport Ireland remains committed to. Sport Ireland coaching provides workshops on coaching teenage girls and has equipped more than 1,000 coaches across the country with the tools to build confidence and encourage the long-term involvement of women in sport. My Department will continue to support our volunteers and coaches to facilitate inclusive sport, and I welcome the work that Sport Ireland is doing in this regard.  As I conclude my statement, I reiterate my Department\u2019s commitment to promoting an inclusive sporting environment where everyone has the opportunity to reap the benefits of sport. Notwithstanding the continual need for improvement, I trust Senators will agree that the landscape of sport is in a much more inclusive place today than it was when the national sports policy was launched in 2017. Our investment in the women in sport programme, the establishment of a dedicated disability in sport lead and disability in sport funding stream, as well as the equality, diversity, and inclusion fund via dormant accounts funding, to name but a few, are contributing to the growth in participation for under-represented groups and the erosion of long-established participation gaps. More broadly, the increased funding allocated to sport in budget 2026, which was more than double the amount allocated in 2018, points to the Government\u2019s continued commitment to investing in sport. The return on that investment in terms of community participation, inclusion, and physical and mental well-being is, I believe and I think we would all agree, substantial.  I remain steadfast in my work to remove barriers to participation and any recommendations of the committee\u2019s report that have not yet received direct engagement can and will be considered during the consultation process for the new national sports policy. It is absolutely essential we utilise that new policy to set the direction to build on the continued progress we have seen over the last ten years. Much has been achieved but there is still a long, substantial and important road to travel. We need to make sure the next ten years sees as much progress and, indeed, more progress as we have seen over the last ten years.  The work of the Oireachtas committee in 2024 deserves our significant thanks. It is no small undertaking for a committee to put time and effort into putting a report like this together. It is a significant commitment of their time and their resources, which are limited. I think it emphasises the importance the committee gives to this particular issue. I think the decision and motion here today to bring it back to the floor of the Seanad for this discussion reflect the importance of that time and effort that was put in and the fact that we need to make sure it delivers results and contributes significantly to the journey we are all travelling. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria McCormack","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-McCormack.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Maria-McCormack.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Maria McCormack  I commend the joint committee on all the work that went into this report. It really was extensive and is very well done. I especially commend my colleagues, Senators N\u00ed Chuilinn and Harmon, for their fantastic work. I welcome the opportunity to speak on the report, Inclusion in Sport. I love its central message that being told you are welcome means very little if you cannot get a facility, afford to take part, find a coach who understands your needs or secure a place to play. That is where a lot of the barriers come from.  The report has 17 recommendations but I particularly welcome its call for accessible, fit-for-purpose facilities, with funding that looks at the whole project. As the report points out, there is little sense in funding accessible sports equipment while refusing funding for accessible toilets needed at the same venue. It also calls for better transport, support for volunteers and coaches and greater visibility for women's and disability sport. The recommendations deserve the action now and I welcome the Minister of State's comments that this report will form part of the new sport policy. It is so important that this does not end up as another report that draws dust on the shelf.  In Laois, we can see what happens when people are given a genuine chance to participate. This summer, the first Laois Inclusion Games brought together more than 330 athletes and participants across 15 sports.  The games grew from the work of the vision impaired and physical disability hub and the Laois Sports Partnership, with families, clubs and volunteers all playing their part. It was fantastic. It is something that our county is so proud of. It shows that the demand is there when we create the opportunity. However, a successful weekend must lead to lasting opportunities for these people. Athletes need somewhere accessible to train and that is something that we do not have. They need to be able to compete throughout the year like other athletes.  This leads me onto my next point. The next recommendation is of particular importance in Laois, namely, the recommendation on facilities. I will speak about our young soccer players. The Old Fort Celtic club in Portlaoise has grown from one senior team to five teams at present. Its people want to give more to young players, including young girls and give them a place in club, but the lack of a reliable pitch is holding them back year in, year out. The club uses facilities in Portlaoise leisure centre when it can but bookings are limited and cannot always be guaranteed. Its volunteers should be spending their energy developing the club instead of constantly trying to find somewhere to play. There is a grass soccer pitch at the leisure centre that has been out of use for more than six years. A proposal has now been raised locally for a suitable perimeter fence in order that the pitch can be brought back into use. It just seems that there is one block after another. Meanwhile, Portlaoise clubs are travelling outside of the town for home games. I want to see that pitch restored. I want clubs like the Old Fort Celtic to have proper dependable places to play as they grow. This is why the next community sport facilities fund round is so important.  Laois has a growing population and clubs with real ambition. Previous local applications have always been unsuccessful. We need sports facilities. We have a growing population. We have St. Mary's Hall; a hall that is absolutely on its knees. We have no big sports facility for the number of youngsters and all-inclusion sports there at all. The pitches need regeneration. We are going to be putting in applications when the applications open on Monday. I ask the Minister of State to ensure that Laois gets its fair share and that applications are judged with the needs of growing communities and the barriers to participation firmly in mind. Clubs are being encouraged to prepare for the next round now. They need to have fair opportunities to turn those plans into pitches and facilities that people can use.  I will leave the best to last. I wish to speak about girls and women in sport. It is great to see so much of that in there. It is so important. It clearly records the stereotypes that girls face and recommends better training for coaches and physical educators on issues affecting women's participation in sport. I really hope the Minister of State will pay particular attention to all these issues. It calls for women's sports to be broadcast on an equal basis with men's sport, which is so important. These issues shape whether a girl feels sport is for her or whether she stays involved. Last year in this Chamber, I brought Laois camogie players with me. We cannot forget that the camogie players had to protest last year for their fight to wear shorts instead of a skort. The rule was changed after the players made themselves heard. This may have seemed like a practical issue to a lot of people, but it said something much bigger. We must listen to the women and girls who play our sports. In fairness, in this report, it really does have the lived experiences and the voices of the women and girls. As the GAA, LGFA and Camogie Association work towards integration, equality has to be visible in everyday decisions from playing kits and pitches to leadership and resources. The people running our clubs, the volunteers behind the inclusion games and the players asking for change have already shown what is possible. Now, Government funding must back them with facilities, funding and decisions that allow everyone to take part. Inclusion should be simply how we do sport all the time.  We cannot talk about women in sport and forget the women who led the way in sport. I am talking about Katie Taylor. She did not just become Ireland's greatest sports person of all time; she changed how this country and people across the world look at women's sports. While Katie Taylor filled stadiums and inspired generations of young girls, Katie should not be the exception. Every young girl, whether she dreams of becoming a world champion or simply just wants to play with her local club, deserves the very same opportunities as the young boys. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pat Casey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Pat Casey)  I thank the Senator. I gave her a bit of leniency there seeing as she was talking about a great Wicklow woman. Senator Ahearn has six minutes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  I thank the Minister of State for being here. I thank Senators N\u00ed Chuilinn and Harmon for bringing forward this opportunity to speak on the report that was done by the sports committee two years ago. A lot of people have mentioned that the committee did an incredible amount of work. It is important to remember that was also the committee that was dealing with other issues as well, such as RT\u00c9 and other things, at the time. To find the time to do that report and do it with a lot of detail and work has to be commended.  Everyone is unified in this position in terms of inclusion and bringing more people into sport. I often think about it. When I was younger and I think of the female sports athlete that I looked up to at the time, Sonia O'Sullivan was the obvious one when I was young looking at the Olympics. She was an inspiration to the whole nation. If we are honest with ourselves and we look at who we look up to now in sport in Ireland and who are the people who can inspire a nation, the majority of them are female sports athletes. Everyone talks about Katie Taylor. That was a phenomenal event in Dublin that night for her farewell. The Irish soccer team next month has an incredible opportunity and massive match in Cork against Kazakhstan to qualify for another World Cup. I am sure that is going to be an absolute sell out in P\u00e1irc U\u00ed Chaoimh. We all wish them well in that in a couple of weeks.  In athletics, we have Sharlene Mawdsley from Tipperary. We have Rhasidat Adeleke. In swimming, we have Mona McSharry. In GAA, I have been at the past couple of camogie finals, which is a brilliant day for the family. I think Senator N\u00ed Chuilinn was there as well this year at the Cork versus Galway final. That was an incredible game. Last year was an incredible game as well. I was watching Sorcha McCartan and some of the points she got that day are better than any points I have ever seen in Croke Park or any other stadium. She is a phenomenal player and inspiration to people. That is all good and it is positive. It is so important that people have individuals like that who achieve great success and who they can look up to. However, what we need to do is for people to be able to see that on the ground as well at small clubs and local level where they can look up to people in their own community and own village. It is not necessarily the Sorcha McCartans, the Rachael Blackmores or people like that but people in their own community who achieve greatness, whether that is a county final or playing at intercounty levels.  Even though we have done an awful lot on inclusion, there is more we can do at that level. When I speak to friends at home and parents, there is such a want for their kids to be involved in sport because sport is good from a health perspective and fitness perspective, but there is a social element as well. Parents always naturally worry about their kids at certain ages and wonder if they will have friends, will they be included in a community or will they be part of a community of their own age group. Sport plays a leading role in that. It is so important, whether you are a boy or a girl, to have that opportunity to be in sports. The real important thing is that children at that age are treated similarly. If my two boys are playing sport in Tipperary, they should have the same facilities and the same treatment as Senator Scahill's two girls in Roscommon. There should be no difference in how they are treated or in terms of facilities. If we are being honest with ourselves, that is not always the case in all sports. We need to improve on that. That is why it is welcomed that we have the announcement of the sports capital grant applications opening on Monday. In previous applications, there has been a requirement in terms of inclusiveness and women's participation in sport. I hope that continues - I have no doubt that it will - but that it is even reinforced more and that it is not just a box-ticking exercise where a club can just say that it is doing something here or there, but that it is real inclusion and real equality in terms of treating people in sport.  There also is the critically element in respect of people with disabilities and people from the LGBT community.  An awful lot has been done there as well. Sport can play a big role in inclusiveness within communities. As I said at the start, we have seen the success of some of our athletes at international level in competitions right across the world. We need to build on that from the ground up. This report will play a key role in delivering that. We can be happy with some of the things we have achieved. I know the Minister of State and the Minister, Deputy O'Donovan, are committed to continuing that and to delivering on this report. I am sure that many Members will continue to support the Minister of State and the Minister to ensure the continued success of inclusion in sport. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gareth Scahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Gareth Scahill  The Minister of State is welcome. I too acknowledge Senators N\u00ed Chuilinn and Harmon for bringing this motion before the House today. It is very timely. It is a very important issue to raise. All of the Oireachtas committees always do great work. The publication of reports with recommendations is really at the core of the work we do in this House. It is where we do not have the theatrics of the Chambers or the influence of social media. It is where people sit down to discuss the issues and see what recommendations they can collectively come up with that will improve facilities and the experience of the next generations. I acknowledge that.  At the same time, I will acknowledge how far we have come. I still do not consider myself that old but, when I am standing on the side of a soccer or GAA pitch with kids, I look at the facilities we have throughout this country and at the investment that has been made. The strides made in the past 20 years have been unbelievable. It is money well spent. Every penny that is spent in the area of sport, inclusion and accessibility saves a significant amount on the other side, the health spend in the country. We have to acknowledge that.  When I think of inclusion in sport, I am always brought back to Lisnamult community park in Roscommon. It is a community that finds a solution to any problem that is put in front of it. When the new sports hub was opened there, it was one of the first to include a fully wheelchair-accessible Changing Places toilet. If the Minister is ever down in Roscommon, something I will get to in a moment, he should go and see it because it is a blueprint all community facilities should follow as regards accessible toilets. It has a ceiling hoist, height-adjustable changing benches for adults and children, and the usual features to be found in accessible toilets.  Those involved foresaw the issues based on the needs presented by the people who were using the outdoor facilities. Funding was recently awarded for an outdoor basketball and hockey court. They realised that, since we live in Ireland, outdoor facilities are not always accessible for use by everybody on a regular basis. Given the Special Olympics teams that use the facilities, they realised an overhead cover for this outdoor court would be needed. While it is open on the sides and the fresh air is able to get through, it is a covered outdoor court. They are currently in the process of building an athletics track. It is hoped this will mean that the figure of nine members representing Roscommon in the Ireland summer games this year will be doubled for the next games. It is worth pointing out that Roscommon represented Ireland in European swimming championships recently. There were four athletes from Roscommon. It was the only team in the country to participate in those European swimming championships. We are giving people opportunities to participate in sport that were never there before.  Previous speakers have mentioned issues of inclusion within the GAA. Last Saturday morning, I was in the centre of excellence in Bekan, just outside Knock and Ballyhaunis. There were 82 under-10s girls teams invited to participate in the final blitz of the year. Unfortunately, only 78 of them showed up but just imagine the logistics of trying to organise and facilitate a blitz of games for 78 teams from Galway, Roscommon, Mayo, Sligo and Leitrim. What an experience and what a day it was. For those young girls, experiencing the world-class facilities at the Connacht centre of excellence in Bekan will have them enthused and excited to go back next year when the season starts again.  Members have mentioned Katie Taylor. We know that some 1.6 million people watched. I think it is the largest television audience Westlife has ever had. We were watching because we had a true Irish icon of sport, Katie Taylor, in her final fight in the GAA headquarters, Croke Park. What an experience it was. We will all remember where we were for it. That should be the benchmark for televising female sport, something the report mentions.  It would be remiss of me not to mention the European elite boxing championships taking place in Sofia at the moment. Two ladies from Castlerea, County Roscommon, Lisa and Aoife O'Rourke, are participating. Lisa is in the 85 kg final tonight and Aoife is in the 75kg final tomorrow. No matter what happens, those ladies will be welcomed back to Roscommon and Castlerea based on their performance and honesty in the ring. If they were to stop tomorrow morning, the number of young kids they have newly introduced to sport would still be something to be commended.  The only reason I have not mentioned the Castlerea swimming pool, which the Minister of State is very familiar with, until now is because I did not want to get people excited to know that he goes swimming there once in a while. Funding was recently accessed for water-pressure powered lifts to enable wheelchair access, allowing people to avail of those facilities.  If we are to take anything from this report, it is that we need to continue with such investment. We need to strive for better. We need to take best practice examples like the Changing Places toilet in the Lisnamult sports facility and ensure that every facility has the same. We must ensure that every little girl has access to every facility her male counterparts are entitled to access. Anybody who has a disability must also have access. Inclusion is a key criterion in the community sports facility fund that is to be opened. Let us consider that another element of enacting this report. I wish the Minister of State well with that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pat Casey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Pat Casey)  Before I bring in Senator O'Donovan, I welcome our visitors from Kilmacud Men's Shed, who are guests of Deputy Shay Brennan. I hope they are enjoying their visit. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Noel O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Noel-O'Donovan.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Noel-O'Donovan.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Noel O'Donovan  I will just take a couple of minutes, not the full six minutes. I am delighted for the Minister of State to be here and I am delighted to take part in this debate. On two Saturdays during the summer just gone, I visited Sailability Kinsale with local councillor, Marie O'Sullivan. What an experience I had on those Saturdays. Sailability Kinsale is a volunteer-led organisation working in conjunction with Kinsale Yacht Club. It takes people with disabilities out on the water every Saturday morning for 20 weeks. It would do you good to go down there and see the smiles on people's faces on those Saturday mornings and the positivity it brings to people's lives. Se\u00e1n from Clonakilty was involved in a very serious road traffic collision, which had horrible effects. His mobility, speech and much more were affected. When he spoke to us last Saturday, he told us that this gives him a reason to get up in the morning. There is also the Cork Sports Partnership in Kinsale and the yacht club I have mentioned. Donal and Bernadette are the volunteers who lead the programme. Sport Ireland is involved. This is a template that can be rolled out across the country as to how an volunteer-led organisation can be put in place. It comes down to funding, however.  I have heard Members here mention funding. We have the sports funding that is to be announced in the coming weeks but there is potential for a separate pot of funding for disability inclusion within sport. A specific funding stream is needed at Department level.  There is a ten-year policy being developed for sport but there is a real need for a specific level of funding for the things that we take for granted, such as changing rooms and facilities that people need, that can be the barriers to inclusion in sport. It comes down to funding, as we well know. I am thinking of the smiles on the faces of the people who are taking part in these events. We have a duty of care and a need within these Houses to ensure the policy and correct supports are in place for the sporting organisations as well as, ultimately, the funding.  I thank the volunteers. I cannot remember the name of the lady who spoke from Sport Ireland last Saturday, but she had reason to meet former President Robinson last week. On the volunteer-led ethos of these organisations, there is a sense of good when you volunteer within your community, but we have a duty to volunteer. Those were the clear, straight words from former President Robinson.  I thank the Minister of State for being here. It is an important debate. I look forward to policies with more inclusion but, ultimately, funding and separate funding streams. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pat Casey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Pat Casey  Before Senator Kelleher speaks, I welcome a guest of Senator Tom Clonan, Sophia Mulvany. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Kelleher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Kelleher.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Garret-Kelleher.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Kelleher  Cuirim f\u00e1ilte roimh an r\u00fan seo. Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis na Seanad\u00f3ir\u00ed N\u00ed Chuilinn agus Harmon as ucht \u00e9 a thabhairt isteach \u00f3s rud \u00e9 gur \u00e1bhar thar a bheith t\u00e1bhachtach \u00e9.  As a lifelong sports fan and participant, sport has given me an awful lot throughout the course of my life. It teaches a lot of life skills, regardless of whether those who enter into sport participate at an elite or high performance level or at a level where participation is more important.  The focus on increasing participation and inclusion in sport is vital and I very much welcome the motion before us today. As a father of four children, two boys and two girls, who are young and participate in sport, I would like to see the opportunities afforded all four of my children and to everybody else's children afforded equally regardless of gender.  Without doubt, and not dissimilar to the political arena, sport has been too male-dominated historically, and the more progress we can see towards change and equality in that regard has to be welcomed, be it in politics, sport or other areas of interest that are dominated by one gender over another.  I wrote my thesis on the participation of women in elections in Ireland, comparing success rates of men versus women across five general elections. The progress we have seen, particularly since the introduction of gender quotas in politics from the 2016 general election onwards, is to be welcomed. I am proud that the Seanad sits in this Chamber with 34 men and 25 women - we have a vacancy at present. We have not quite reached equality yet.  One of the key points in the report, point 6, concerning the emphasis that needs to be put on including women in leadership positions at organisational level in sport, is very important. As a man, I have to stand up here and say that, in sport, politics and other areas of society, there has been an element of misogyny over the years. As long as that fact is accepted and addressed, we are certainly moving in the right direction. If I can single out my colleague, Senator N\u00ed Chuilinn, in particular, since she has got involved in politics and become a representative, her voice in the Seanad Chamber has been loud in regard to the area of equality, going beyond sport but especially focusing on sports and how we can improve sports at an organisational level.  Visibility, which is point 13 in the report, is a key one that needs to be addressed in order that there is an aspiration to have public service media broadcasting women's sport and men's sport on a par with each other and that there would be an emphasis on disability sports not being restricted to the Paralympic Games. I was fortunate to have attended the International Mixed Ability Rugby Tournament, IMART, in Cork in 2022 that was hosted by the Sunday's Well club in Cork. I commend the Sunday's Well club on the massive achievement in the organisation that went into that and hosting teams from a number of different countries. The participation of people with various disabilities in a sport, that being the centre of attention of a community and their getting to play in Musgrave Park was something that will stay with them for the rest of their lives, but we should not be over-reliant on volunteers progressing initiatives in that regard. That is something we, as political representatives and leaders in our communities, should look to help and encourage wherever possible.  On point 14, regarding athletes from marginalised communities, the push to have greater promotion, inclusion and participation is key. We all remember, a little over 30 years ago at this stage, when the boxer, Francie Barrett, was the flag-bearer for the Irish Olympic team at the Atlanta Olympic Games in 1996, but we need something beyond tokenism. We need to see a genuine commitment to including those from marginalised backgrounds. The phrase \"can't see, can't be\" is used frequently when we refer to promoting women's sport. In my community in Ballincollig, we had a two-time world champion rower, Sanita Pu\u0161pure, who in my view did not get the credit or recognition she deserved, but the work she put in to dedicating herself to her chosen sport and reaching the elite level at the top of the world is something we need to encourage. As I said at the outset, however, the encouragement of participation of women, girls and people from marginalised backgrounds in communities at all levels is something that needs to be at forefront of our minds.  I commend Senators N\u00ed Chuilinn and Harmon on bringing the motion to the House. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Duffy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mark Duffy  I welcome the Minister of State to the House and thank him for being here for this important topic. I thank Senators N\u00ed Chuilinn and Harmon for leading this Private Members' motion.  The more inclusive we make sport, the better it is for society, for community, for mental health, and for each and every one of us. From my point of view and my experience as a public representative, I have seen the power of sport and how it can bring people together and unite communities, families and people from different backgrounds, and while we have come some way, we have a long way to go.  Investment in capital infrastructure to help those less able who require specialised facilities to participate in sport is an important issue that needs attention and consideration, specifically proper changing facilities. These offer incredible dignity to children who are wheelchair users and their families, and to any person who is a wheelchair user. I single out a football club in Mayo that has the only changing facilities in the county so far, Manulla FC. They have done brilliant work in making their football club and using the grounds and the assets they have benefit all of their community. They have autism-friendly initiatives, they have a \"Cubbie\" sensory space but, practically and most importantly, they have a changing places unit. I have met many parents of children and young people who are wheelchair users and the changing places offers them life-changing opportunities in being able to have dignity while enjoying activity and sport in their local community.  There is a map of changing places facilities across the UK. The map of changing places facilities we have in Ireland is embarrassing in certain parts. Across all Government Departments, there should be some initiative to try to realise them and do more to incentivise community groups because it is such a vital thing.  When it comes to women in sport, great strides have been made in certain ways. However, increased emphasis is needed to support women in sport. The work of both Senators who have brought forward this motion needs to be supported by us all.  There is also the multigenerational approach to sport. Sport is not just for one age demographic. Walking football, for example, has become more popular recently. It engages a less active community and helps them to maintain a level of activity. Padel is also becoming a multigenerational sport. It is popping up in every town and village. Such initiatives, which are accessible and inclusive for all ages and abilities, are powerful. As I said at the outset, they can lead to a marked improvement in our physical and mental health, community-building and the development and growth of friendships.  I compliment the work of the Government and multiple Departments. We can always continue to do more. An emphasis on changing places facilities for those who are most vulnerable and most in need of help and dignity can be powerful in ensuring we are inclusive for all abilities and ages. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pat Casey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Pat-Casey.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Pat Casey)  I call Senator N\u00ed Chuilinn to reply. She has five minutes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Evanne N\u00ed Chuilinn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Evanne-N\u00ed-Chuilinn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Evanne-N\u00ed-Chuilinn.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Evanne N\u00ed Chuilinn  I will not need five minutes. I do not think I have ever stood here before and said that I echo every single word that every Senator has said during the course of a debate, so I thank them all very much. I appreciate the effort everyone made to be here. Senator Harmon and I were clear that we did not want this report to sit on a shelf. We were not on the sport committee when this report was completed. I commend the previous committee on sport on the work it put into this because there was a lot of stakeholder engagement and it is an important issue.  I have learned two encouraging things from listening today. First, we are all on the same page. Everyone here, along with every community and county, has a story about what is working well and where we are seeing the dividends of investment where people are getting greater access to sport and physical activity, whether that is people from the LGBTQI+ community, people with disabilities or women. Women are still in the minority in the sport world, and we must acknowledge that. We have made enormous strides, however. As someone who has spent 25-odd years in the sport sector as a professional, I can tell the House that it is utterly different from what it was 20 or 25 years ago. That is positive and it is down to a lot of the investment the Minister of State mentioned regarding women in sport.  I am encouraged to hear about the disability in sport lead appointed in Sport Ireland and Sport Disability Week that took place last December. We look forward to the 2026 week. I am sure many Senators will be able to visit some of the events happening during that week.  Senator Mark Duffy mentioned how inclusion in sport encourages social inclusion, which really rings true. It encourages people to feel welcome. That is what this report is all about. All 17 recommendations are trying to get to the point where people see themselves reflected in policy and see a place that is welcoming for them to take part in sport.  The Minister of State mentioned the next national sport policy. Obviously, it is going to be an important document. The first national sport policy is coming to its end. It was the first policy of its kind, and it was transformative for the industry. It put funding on a solid footing and brought about greater investment in infrastructure. There is a lot of planning in that regard. All bar five of the 47 actions in that national sport policy have had progress, so it is important. It means the next iteration is going to be even more important because the sporting landscape is completely different compared to 2016 before the 2017 sport policy was put in place. I welcome the engagement on the next national sport policy. It would be useful to have many of these recommendations looked at ahead of the consultation process for the next national sport policy, which I am sure the Minister of State\u2019s Department will engage in.  The Minister of State also mentioned sporting volunteers. Volunteers were not mentioned much today because we were talking about inclusion, but volunteers are everywhere, be it in inclusion sport or equality. Every sport in this country would grind to a halt without the volunteers on the ground. There is a need for continued and increased support for volunteers, such as training around autism or the LGBTQI+ community, in order to ensure volunteers feel supported in their roles. Basically, without volunteers, sport in this country would fall apart. I acknowledge those volunteers.  I thank all those who have contributed to this debate today. I thank the Minister of State for giving so much of his time. It is much appreciated. I wish to keep this issue on the agenda. The best way to achieve that is to have another discussion in a few months\u2019 time about the next national sport policy. Gabhaim bu\u00edochas le gach duine ar fad. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionra\u00ed ar 1.06 p.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 1.32 p.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Sitting suspended at 1.06 p.m. and resumed at 1.32 p.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Report of the Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media: Motion"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_10","debateType":"statement","bill":null,"showAs":"Naturalisation and Citizenship: Statements","counts":{"speechCount":13,"speakerCount":9},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_10","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael McDowell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","memberCode":"Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robbie Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pauline Tully","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patricia Stephenson","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sarah O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aubrey McCarthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration (Deputy Colm Brophy)  I welcome the opportunity to address the House on Irish naturalisation and citizenship. Ireland has been transformed by migration over recent decades. People from every corner of the world have chosen to live, work, study and raise families here. They have contributed enormously to our economy, our public services, our communities and our culture, and they will continue to do so in the years ahead. Migration has strengthened Ireland and enriched our society in countless ways.  It is important for me to say clearly that this Government recognises the value of those contributions. We remain fully committed to maintaining a migration system that is welcoming to those who come here legally and contribute to Irish society. At the same time, the Government has been clear that our migration system must be firm, fair and effective. That is essential to maintaining public confidence in our immigration framework.  The programme for Government contains a commitment to continue implementing a firmer migration system that protects the integrity of our immigration framework. Last year, the Government approved a broad package of policy and legislative reforms aimed at ensuring Ireland's migration system remains efficient, sustainable and aligned with international best practice. As part of that wider programme of reform, we are now reviewing aspects of our citizenship legislation.  Irish citizenship is a significant status. It is an earned privilege. It is one of the most important legal relationships that can exist between an individual and the State. Irish citizenship brings with it important rights, opportunities and protections; it also carries responsibilities. It represents far more than residence in Ireland. It reflects a lasting and enduring bond with this country, its people and our shared future.  As citizenship represents the fullest expression of membership of Irish society, it is important that the legislative framework governing access to citizenship is robust, fair and sustainable. As legislators, it is entirely appropriate that we periodically review the legal framework governing citizenship. Our laws must continue to meet current needs, reflect international developments and support a modern and effective migration system. The Government has a responsibility to review citizenship policy and adapt its frameworks in light of changing migration patterns, demographic developments and evolving public policy objectives.  The Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, and I recently secured Government approval for priority drafting of legislation to strengthen Ireland's naturalisation framework. The reforms being considered are intended to ensure that the pathway to citizenship by naturalisation reflects a genuine, sustained and meaningful connection to Ireland. The general scheme of the Bill approved by the Government contains several key proposals, and I would like to outline some of them.  First, the scheme proposes increasing the standard residence requirement for naturalisation applicants from five to eight years. Under the proposed model, an applicant would generally be required to demonstrate two years of continuous residence immediately before applying, together with six additional years of residence accumulated over the previous ten-year period. The rationale is straightforward. Citizenship is an enduring status. It is therefore reasonable that applicants demonstrate a stronger and more established connection to the State before that status is granted.  Second, the scheme proposes the introduction of a power to require applicants to demonstrate language proficiency. Importantly, applicants would be able to demonstrate competence in English, Irish or Irish Sign Language. That objective is there not to create barriers but to support integration and ensure that citizens can participate fully in public life, access services, understand their rights and responsibilities and engage confidently in civic and democratic processes. Importantly, the legislation would provide flexibility regarding the standard required, the method of assessment and the circumstances in which exemptions or waivers may be appropriate.  Third, the scheme proposes the introduction of a civics, society and politics requirement. This reflects the principle that citizenship involves active participation in the life of the State. Understanding how our institutions operate, the rights we enjoy and the responsibilities we share helps to strengthen social cohesion and encourage active citizenship. We will ensure that any testing regime is proportionate, fair, accessible and transparent, and supports meaningful participation in Irish civic life without creating unnecessary barriers to naturalisation. The objective is not to reward educational achievement; rather, it is to ensure that individuals can navigate daily life, communicate effectively in their communities, participate fully in the workplace and perform the important duties of citizens, including voting and, where called upon, jury service.  The scheme proposes measures relating to self-sufficiency. The objective is to promote independence and support positive integration. It is important to note that detailed operation of these provisions would be determined through regulations following consultation with relevant Departments and stakeholders.  In addition, the scheme proposes amendments relating to reckonable residence. These changes would provide greater clarity regarding the categories of residence that may be counted towards naturalisation and would provide that certain temporary permissions and schemes, including residence under the temporary protection directive, would not be reckonable for citizenship purposes.  These proposals should be considered in the broader European context. Some commentary has suggested that Ireland would become an outlier if these reforms were enacted. That is simply not the case. Citizenship policy is ultimately a matter for each sovereign State. Across Europe, countries have adopted different pathways to naturalisation, but almost all require applicants to demonstrate a substantial period of lawful residence and, in many cases, some degree of language competence and civic understanding.  Fourteen EU member states require eight years or more of residence before naturalisation. Ireland is currently the only EU member state that does not require some form of language competence for citizenship by naturalisation. Civic integration requirements are also common across Europe, with 22 member states having some form of civic knowledge, civics or citizenship requirement. Taken together, these proposals would bring Ireland more closely into line with established European practice while maintaining a fair, balanced and accessible pathway to citizenship.  While we are discussing changes to citizenship policy, it is equally important to acknowledge the significant work undertaken in recent years to improve the operation of the naturalisation system. The number of citizenship applications received in recent years has increased substantially. Despite this growth in demand, considerable progress has been made in improving processing arrangements, modernising systems and reducing decision times. Improvements in digital processes, enhanced operational capacity and ongoing reforms have enabled the Department to process applications more efficiently while maintaining the integrity of the system.  Citizenship ceremonies play an important role in marking the transition from lawful residence to full membership of the Irish community. Only last week I had the privilege of attending a citizenship ceremony for our newest citizens. It is always a powerful reminder of what citizenship means to people to be present at the ceremony when it is granted. The pride, commitment and sense of belonging demonstrated by people taking the declaration of loyalty and fidelity to the State remind us that Irish citizenship remains highly valued at home and around the world.  That pride is important. It reflects the enduring value of Irish citizenship and the strength of the connection people feel to the country. The purpose of these reforms is not to diminish the attractiveness of Irish citizenship but rather to protect and reinforce its value for future generations. We want a system that is fair, transparent and sustainable, one that supports integration, strengthens public confidence and reflects the significance of the bond created when a person becomes an Irish citizen. That is the objective of these proposals.  I look forward to engaging constructively with all stakeholders as the proposals are considered in the months ahead and to hearing the views of Senators here today. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Cathal Byrne  The Minister of State is most welcome to the Seanad Chamber today. I commend him and his officials in the Department of justice on bringing forward some changes to how the citizenship procedures, processes and laws work. I think these are changes for the better, and I commend the Minister of State and the work he has done in the whole area of temporary protection, the closing down of IPAS centres, the establishment of deportation flights and the speeding up of the processing of applications for asylum.  It is very important the core idea underpinning that system is the same as what underpins this system, which is that we must have a firm, fair and effective immigration system. Part of that is ensuring the value of Irish citizenship is protected into the next generation. That speaks to a lot of the reforms the Minister of State is looking to bring in here which, in my view, are about ensuring that citizenship, while not being difficult to obtain, is something that is cherished and comes with a set of criteria clearly laid out for anybody to see in order that were he or she to want to become an Irish citizen, the rules are there.  It is a good thing to extend the length of time an individual has to have lived in Ireland from five years to eight years to apply for citizenship. It is fair and reasonable to expect anybody who applies for Irish citizenship to have proficiency in the language of this country. It is important there are clear provisions and clarifications brought to the citizenship rules in respect of how an individual can have his or her citizenship revoked. It is important legal certainty exists in that area. While it is a rare occasion on which a person's citizenship is revoked, the institutions of the State must retain the ability to revoke citizenship in those areas. In the provisions the Minister of State has put forward and the legislation coming before us, I note it would only be revoked when it is considered necessary in the interest of public policy, public order or national security. It is important we have that certainty about what criteria can be used to revoke citizenship.  Perhaps, when looking at this legislation, there also needs to be greater certainty around long-term residence and the rules for people who have lived here for 20 or 30 years on long-term residency visas and their ability to apply for citizenship. It is important to have clear certainty on that in the new scheme of rules and regulations to be brought before us shortly.  I commend the Minister of State to make reforms in this area. The people I speak to want certainty about citizenship and the process around it. The changes the Minister of State is bringing forward are a move in the right direction. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael McDowell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","memberCode":"Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Michael McDowell  I welcome the Minister of State here today. I wish to make a few comments about what he has told us today is his view of this legislation.  First, as the Minister of State said, citizenship is not the right to carry an Irish passport. Citizenship is not the right to move from Ireland to other countries in the EU and to reside there under EU freedom of movement provisions. Citizenship is not a purely transactional matter which arises from the fact you have been physically located on Irish territory for a certain period. It is not some form of ATM transaction in which \"I have been here for five years and I demand to be regarded as an Irish citizen\". That is a complete misunderstanding of citizenship.  When we look at the Constitution, and sometimes people do not, Article 9 states the fundamental political duty of citizenship is fidelity to the Irish nation and loyalty to the State. These are the most fundamental duties of citizens but there are a whole series of other duties, such as the obligation to serve on a jury, as the Minister of State mentioned, or the obligation to serve in the Defence Forces if an emergency arose. These are things that are attributes of citizenship.  Citizenship also is nationality. You are joining not merely a concept or construct such as the State and achieving certain rights in that sense but you are also saying, \"I want to be part of the Irish nation and I am going to be faithful to the Irish nation. I want to be regarded as a citizen of the Irish State and I am going to be loyal to that State. It is now a state to which I am pledging my loyalty.\" Therefore, the idea of saying, \"I have been here five years. Give me citizenship\", is completely misconceived. The fact you live in Ireland for any particular period may or may not entitle you to citizenship but at the very least, if you become a citizen you have the right under Irish law to participate - if you reside in Ireland - in referendums and elections, to stand for public office and to decide on issues of fundamental importance to the Irish people and their future, submitted by way of constitutional amendment to the people. You have these rights. However, the correlative obligations are that you acknowledge that this is your state and this is your nationality.  Nationality means something. You cannot just simply be an isolated person who cannot speak the language and who stays in a remote community which has nothing to do with Ireland, its traditions, values or whatever. People have to understand this. While I fully understand you may want to have a travel document on the same basis as everybody else who is an Irish citizen, by the same token, that is not the same as saying you are signing on for all the complex obligations to your fellow citizens that being an Irish citizen entails. The heads of the Bill the Minister of State has mentioned have been drafted and the Bill is going to the justice committee for pre-legislative scrutiny. I look forward to it being examined in detail there and I will participate in that examination as a member of the joint committee on justice.  I will say this: I do not accept the proposition that anybody who is in Ireland automatically qualifies for an expectation of citizenship simply by virtue of the fact the law is as it is at the moment and cannot change. I do not accept that proposition. The Minister of State is entitled to bring in legislation that will affect some people's rights and will extend the period for some people on residence grounds to remain in Ireland. However, I ask the Minister of State to consider - and we can tease it out at the justice committee - the position of individuals who are married to Irish citizens and who are bringing up a family in Ireland with an Irish citizen.  I ask him to consider whether an exception could be made in their case such that the existing residence requirements would suffice, in addition to the language and civic educational requirements he is introducing. In other words, if somebody has been here for some time and they have made all their plans as a family based on one of the members of the family, the parent, being an Irish citizen, there could be injustice in saying, \"Sorry, but your plans are going to have to change\" because we are going to demand that in addition to membership of this family and co-parenting with an Irish citizen, they will have to wait for another three years, or whatever it is, to become a citizen on top of satisfying the language qualification, etc.  I make the point that whereas I do not accept the proposition that the existing time periods are cast in stone and create a legitimate expectation for anybody in Ireland that they will not be changed contrary to their wishes, there could be injustices and problems for families where, for instance, one of the spouses is denied Irish citizenship unnecessarily on the basis of this change. I ask the Minister of State to bear that in mind as something we should look at carefully when we come to pre-legislative scrutiny.  I have one last thing to say. The Irish people are not unreasonable on these matters. In 2004, I remember people said the referendum was racist when it brought Irish law into line with the rest of Europe, and closed a loophole whereby a person expelled from the United Kingdom could, by going to Northern Ireland, have a child there, then go back to England and say they were an EU citizen and could not be got rid of under the Chen and Zambrano case law and all the EU jurisprudence that followed. It was not racist; it was sensible. It has done no wrong to anybody and has done a lot of good to maintain people's confidence that citizenship was not going to be made into a totally artificial status being exploited by people with no interest in this country at all and who never actually stepped into the jurisdiction of the Twenty-six Counties at any stage, but were, in fact, foreign nationals living in Britain.  I welcome this proposed Bill. I think it is sensible. Nobody can claim to be part of the Irish nation if they cannot understand the languages in which we operate. You cannot be a citizen and participate in an election if you do not know what the election is about. You cannot be a juror if you cannot speak the languages. These things are so obvious when you think about it. We have been lax in the past but there is nothing racist or retrogressive about making a sensible law. In that light, I ask the Minister of State to bear in mind the one exception of which I have spoken. There should be some flexibility for those people who are in a family situation, co-parenting with an Irish citizen, and who should be in a position not to have to wait a further three years if they can satisfy the other criteria proposed to be brought into law. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  I acknowledge Deputy Daniel Ennis and his guests in the Gallery, as well as Deputy Paul Gogarty and his guest. I hope they enjoy their visit to Leinster House today. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robbie Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Robbie Gallagher  I too welcome the Minister of State to the House. My comments follow on from the theme of the two previous speakers. I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this important debate. It is important to recognise what citizenship represents. Irish citizenship is one of the most important legal statuses the State can confer, and the Minister of State made comments in this regard in his contribution too. It provides a person with a permanent legal connection to this country and with the rights and responsibilities that come with being an Irish citizen. For someone who has moved to Ireland, built a life here, worked here, raised a family and become part of the local community, naturalisation can be an incredibly significant moment.  The Government's proposed reforms are about strengthening the integrity and value of Irish citizenship. The general scheme of the Bill proposes a number of significant changes, which the Minister of State has outlined. These include increasing the qualifying period of reckonable residence for most applicants from five years to eight years, including language and civic testing and requiring applicants to demonstrate self-sufficiency. Contraventions of immigration law would be clearly identified as a bar to naturalisation. These are important changes and I suggest that most reasonable people would not have an issue with them. They seek to ensure that citizenship reflects a genuine and durable connection with Ireland, an understanding of our society and a willingness to participate in the life of the State.  It is important that Ireland's system is considered in a wider European context. As the Minister of State also outlined, a number of European countries have residency requirements of between seven and ten years already in place. Indeed, our closest neighbour, the UK, has a period of six years in total to get citizenship through the standard naturalisation route. Language and civic requirements are common across most EU countries. Requirements around self-sufficiency and financial stability are also features of citizenship systems in a number of member states and throughout the world.  I also welcome the proposed strengthening of provisions dealing with immigration law compliance and the protection of the integrity of the naturalisation process. I note changes relating to the revocation of citizenship on public order and national security grounds, together with a streamlined revocation process. Nobody should have a problem with that either. Given the importance of citizenship, any revocation mechanism must be subject to strong safeguards, due process and appropriate legal oversight.  In particular, I note the proposed provisions relating to people who have been living here under temporary protection. This proposal would clarify that the time spent in the State under temporary protection, including protection provided to people fleeing the war in Ukraine, will not be reckonable for naturalisation purposes, as their country, no doubt, would welcome them back with open arms to rebuild it and its economy.  I understand that the proposed legislation will now proceed to pre-legislative scrutiny by the Joint Committee on Justice, Home Affairs and Migration. Like Senator McDowell, I am a member of that committee. We look forward to debating the proposals during that process. No doubt, as Senator McDowell outlined in his contribution, situations will arise that will need full debate and to be looked at in a sympathetic manner.  As far as I am concerned, ultimately, Irish citizenship should remain a valued and meaningful status. These reforms should strengthen confidence in our naturalisation system, while supporting positive integration and ensuring that those who become Irish citizens have a genuine and lasting connection to the country they now call home. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pauline Tully","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Pauline Tully  Irish citizenship is something to be valued. It represents membership of our nation, it carries rights and responsibilities and it should reflect a genuine and lasting commitment to Ireland. Sinn F\u00e9in believes migration must be managed in the best interests of people across Ireland, while recognising our need for workers in key sectors, the pressures on housing and public services and our humanitarian obligations to those fleeing war and persecution. It is a priority to ensure that those who legally make Ireland their long-term home are fully integrated into our society and communities. We recognise that migrants make an enormous contribution to Ireland, including in our public services, economy and communities. Any reforms must recognise and respect that contribution.  International evidence shows that the best way to achieve integration is through a clear, transparent and fair pathway to citizenship that encourages civic participation, community involvement and a genuine connection to the country.  Sinn F\u00e9in recognises that any changes to decision rules can create uncertainty for those seeking to acquire Irish citizenship and this needs to be considered. We are also conscious that delays in residence permit renewals have caused unnecessary anxiety and uncertainty for many people who have made their lives here and those delays must be addressed as a matter of urgency. I regularly encounter people whose residence permits are about to expire. They apply in good time for renewal but are often left with a gap where their residence permit has not been renewed and they cannot continue to work. Their employer has to let them go for a period of time until that residence permit is renewed. That delay in the system needs to be addressed.  For many applicants, delays in renewing residence permits and the absence of a long-term residency option are major reasons why they feel pressure to pursue citizenship as quickly as possible. As the number of citizenship applications has grown, it is right to examine whether the current system remains fit for purpose and whether it properly reflects the significance of Irish citizenship. For too long, successive Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael governments have failed to develop a coherent citizenship policy. The current system relies heavily on length of residence, broad ministerial discretion and rules that are often unclear to applicants. The time spent in Ireland matters but on its own it does not demonstrate integration, contribution, good character or indeed a commitment to Irish society. We believe citizenship should be acquired through a structured and transparent pathway that reflects both the privileges and the responsibilities that come with it.  We support stronger clearer more consistent citizenship rules. Citizenship must not be reduced to a passport acquired simply through the passage of time and equally it must not be a privilege available only to the wealthy. Greater emphasis should be placed on integration, civic participation, community contribution and understanding of Irish society as well as language, be that Irish, English or Irish Sign Language. Work, education, caring responsibilities, volunteering, tax compliance and participation in community life should all be recognised as evidence of contribution and integration.  We want to see a pathway to Irish citizenship for people in the North who have legally moved to the North, including those married to Irish citizens and who meet the same conditions as apply in the South.  We also believe that people who have lawfully built their lives in Ireland should have access to a secure long-term residence status. Citizenship should not be the only route to certainty and stability. The question of whether transitional arrangements should be put in place for people who have established their lives in Ireland under the existing rules with expectations around when they could apply for citizenship based on reckonable residency must be examined. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patricia Stephenson","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Patricia Stephenson  I thank the Minister of State for coming here for the debate. I recognise that in his opening statement he talked about the need to periodically review the legal framework around citizenship and it is important that we have space for this discussion. It is great to have space for this debate without the context of the legislation. However, my concern is that how it was announced has created a huge amount of concern among our migrant community, many of whom are on the pathway or believed they were on the pathway to citizenship, specifically security and stability in the knowledge they could stay here and build lives here permanently.  My concern is that the way this legislation was announced and these massive changes were announced seems to be in the context of an urgent problem that we have to fix. However, I do not know what the problem is and maybe the Minister of State can outline what it is. What emergency are we responding to with this legislation? A lot of people feel that they are having the rug pulled out from underneath them. They have been living here and have been contributing. In some instances, they might have married Irish people but even if they have not married Irish people, their kids might be in school and they want to build lives here. They are contributing to our economy and to our communities.  Some applicants may have been here for four years and six months. They had a pathway, a plan for their lives and suddenly that is about to change. In many ways, it actually directly impacts integration. The Minister of State spoke a lot about the importance of integration as all of the contributors have. Integration is important and I hope this will come into the pre-legislative scrutiny in the justice committee. There is a plethora of research showing that having no pathway to citizenship or permanent residency and no pathway to stability of where they live for the future can have a direct impact on their ability to integrate. There is a huge amount of research into that. What is really frustrating about the context of this debate is that I am not getting the evidence on which we are making this change. All of our policy-making should be based on evidence and I am not seeing the evidence upon which this change was made.  The Minister of State mentioned about bringing us so that we are not an outlier in Europe. I do not accept that point because 11 other countries have a five-year requirement. My major concern is that we are not considering alternative pathways for migrants to apply for permanent residency. Citizenship is one thing, but creating stability so people can live here in the long term is another. Many countries do not permit dual citizenship. Some people may not want to give up the citizenship of their country of origin but they do want to build a life here. Therefore, having that alternative is really important.  I have concerns from the scant information that we have so far on the plans. One of them relates to the requirements around work. Obviously, we want people to be in our society contributing actively; that is really positive. However, what if someone becomes sick or is made redundant? Are they excluded from applying for citizenship because they have taken statutory sick pay? Will someone who may have had cancer or some sort of chronic illness be excluded? They might be looking after a relative, possibly their partner, and in receipt of carer's benefit. Will they be excluded because they received that social welfare payment? In that case, we are sort of saying that the only pathway to citizenship is for people who have money and do not need to rely on support in the State even if they have been taxpaying citizens and actively contributing. If medical staff, nurses, doctors, people who come to look after our sick and our elderly, and people in the care space get statutory sick pay will they be excluded? That is a really important question that a lot of people want answered because there is not clarity on that. Will someone with a disability be denied because they receive disability payment or disability allowance?  We have already heard from one of the other Senators about the break in the Irish residence permit, IRP, renewal. There have been chronic delays in IRP renewals, as I am sure the Minister of State knows. I know there is a grace period. Will the grace period be included when it comes to totting up the months that someone has been in the country, for example? Many people have been way over. Let us say there are three months that they can apply for. They can apply on 1 March and they have three months to receive. Particularly during the Covid pandemic, there were massive delays. Again, anxiety is being created for people around that.  I am not inherently opposed to the language requirement. I agree with the other contributors on the need to be able to actively engage in society. To do so, people absolutely need to speak the language of that country, but we also need to ensure that there is State support for that because there is a cost to their getting language lessons. Again, we are saying that pathway to citizenship only exists if people have the money to pay for those lessons. There is a component around that too. The Minister of State is shaking his head. Maybe he will be able to outline if that will be part of the support programmes he plans within that.  We need to think about the long-term planning of this country. The government's own Project 2040 plan outlined the need for inward migration to meet the demographic changes that we are going to be seeing to fuel our economy. Administrative and support services rely on having 45% non-Irish labour. For accommodation and food services, it is 45%. In the information and communication sectors, it is 41%. We need highly skilled people. There is a competitive market for highly skilled labour in Europe at the moment. In order to get people into the country, we need to be attractive and incentivise. There are lots of different ways we can offer those incentives. A really clear way is providing a pathway to permanent residency. However, we are making that more difficult and more challenging through these changes. It will create insecurity and they will choose to take their high skills elsewhere. I receive emails from people working in the tech sector who are saying this.  I worry that we are creating a double-edged sword with this and I hope that will be discussed in the pre-legislative scrutiny. We are actually disincentivising people whom we need in our economy and in our labour market and that is a concern.  I will pick up on the question of alternative pathways and alternative citizenship. As I mentioned, not everyone wants to give up their citizenship if their country does not allow dual citizenship. We are quite unusual that we do not have a permanent residency status. In addition, becoming a citizen obviously has a cost to it and some people cannot afford that because of other obligations, etc., in their lives. Permanent residency gives a migrant a sense of certainty and stability that actually supports adopting and integrating into a new culture. That stability and knowing they have a long-term future somewhere is a really core component of that.  We do know that reducing access to citizenship status or having no permanent residency will have a direct impact on integration. For example, if I moved to the US for a job and I had to apply every single year for my residency application to be approved and I had a child and my child starts school but I still have to keep making that application, it would not give me a sense of hope for a future there. It would not give me a sense of stability.  That is what we are looking at here. If social cohesion and integration are our end goal, then changing the goalposts and narrowing the criteria could have a negative knock-on consequence for that.  I am not opposed to this debate. I am not opposed to having new discussions about how people can live fruitful, stable, integrated and communal lives in Ireland. However, we have a glaring gap with not having a permanent residency status. It is a glaring gap in Ireland. If I am honest, my concern is that this debate is reactionary, that we are posturing and it is not based on policy and evidence. I feel we have relentless negativity from the Government when it comes to the question of migration and a feeding of a negative statement towards migrants is having a direct impact on people. We know there is a rise in racism and in hate crime. We have seen that over the past 12 months and it is absolutely awful. It is not what any of us in the two Houses wants. We need to be careful of how we conduct this debate and to be mindful of the people and the very real lives that are affected whenever discussions about who is and is not valuable to us as a State are put into the public realm. It has real knock-on consequences. I hope this debate will continue to be constructive, evidence-based and grounded in the lives of real people and what our country needs in the long term. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sarah O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Sarah O'Reilly  I welcome this debate today. I think it is great. I will start by saying that citizenship is not a right afforded to people and there is not an automatic entitlement to it. It should be earned. The proposed changes to citizenship rules have made people sit up and realise that up until now we essentially put zero restrictions on acquiring citizenship, and that should not be. Irish citizenship should be valued. Our requirements are laughable compared with other countries. If you want to apply for citizenship in Sweden you must have eight years of residency. It is 12 years of residency in India and 15 years in Nigeria with no criminal record in that time. There has been criticism of the new proposals but they should be viewed through a positive lens both for the benefit of those applying and for integration. People need to have an interest in Ireland and not just in the value of an Irish passport. If you cannot speak the language of a country, if you know nothing about its culture or traditions and you cannot financially support yourself, you have no business applying for citizenship. One of the proposals is that people demonstrate they can support themselves and not become an unreasonable burden on the State. This is only right and reasonable. I would never expect to move to America or Australia and immediately expect access to social housing and welfare. Aont\u00fa has raised this issue and suggested language checks for citizenship. A few weeks later, the Government is running with the idea and I welcome that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aubrey McCarthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Aubrey McCarthy  I thank the Minister of State for being here and welcome him to the House. At the outset I wish to stipulate that every State has the right to set its own terms on citizenship. I fully appreciate that and I am not arguing for open borders. However, I am saying that citizenship matters and asking people to show real commitment is reasonable. When the scheme was initially approved, the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, said that Ireland values the contributions that migrants make. I believe him, but that fairness has to cut both ways. I know outside the gate today there are many people who came here on critical skills visas and so on. They came here in their thousands under the rules we had already set. They are nurses, engineers and carers, etc. People were recruited under the critical skills permit because we needed them. I got many emails from them in the past couple of weeks. I will give the example of one who arrived in 2023 and planned their life around a five-year plan that would see a new life for them. They came here with good intentions. That has now moved to eight years. They are not looking for special treatment but are asking why the goalposts are being moved halfway through the match. My first ask is about transitional protection. Should people already on the path in Ireland be judged by the rules they came in under? Is there a grandfather scheme or what happens to them?  Second, the scheme speaks of citizenship as an earned privilege and aligning ourselves with Europe. I understand that but it does not say what specific problem each new condition that is being introduced is meant to fix. The conditions include the eight years, the income test, the language and the civic tests. I am practical and pragmatic. If you name the problem then you can measure the answer. That brings me to my third ask. I am thinking about a review of the Bill requiring that a report to both Houses be provided within two years of commencement on whether the changes do exactly what they set out to do. I think that is only fair in any law.  A friend of mine was recently in intensive care in St. James's Hospital. It was meant to be a simple procedure. He ended up staying there eight weeks and the majority of staff on that ward were nurses from Kerala, India. The people who staff our wards and build our homes deserve fair play when it comes to this. When I have spoken on the radio about migration, I have been accused of wanting open borders. Then I would be on another show and be accused of not wanting any migrants. It is a delicate topic and it is hard to play all sides, but I think fairness is what is required. I also believe that changing the goalposts in the middle of the match is unfair. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration (Deputy Colm Brophy)  I have closing remarks to hand but I am going to speak back to what people have said. The first thing I want to make absolutely clear from my perspective as a Minister of State, from the Government's perspective and that of the Minister, Deputy Jim O'Callaghan, is that we believe in fairness. Absolutely, at the heart of the decisions we try to take day to day on any aspect concerning migration, fairness and how it will impact are always at the forefront of our consideration. What we have looked at in this area with the changes we are bringing forward, is what we believe is a fair system. We believe it is a fair system in how it will impact on people who are going through the process to achieve what is an incredible privilege, which is Irish citizenship, and how it will impact on the State by having a system in place that is fair and reflects the modern values of the State. Every Government, as Senator McDowell said, is entitled to bring in a review of legislation and make changes to put in place what it believes to be the correct approach. In this area, that is what we are attempting to do. We are not fundamentally trying to make it more difficult for people to achieve citizenship. We are trying to have a process that will result in more inclusive citizenship for somebody who has earned the privilege of citizenship.  A Senator who is unfortunately no longer present raised a number of things and asked what this or that will be. We have to factual about these things. We are having an early set of statements on legislation that is going in for pre-legislative scrutiny. You cannot have it both ways. You cannot ask everything you want to cherry-pick and look for an answer today when you know, as a legislator, that all those questions you are asking are part of the process we are going to go through. It is important to recognise that I want that pre-legislative scrutiny to be deep and strong and to give people an opportunity to work through these questions. We are not trying to do anything suddenly.  I want to draw one or two small points. First, I appreciate people feel it is important to make mention here and there of other things but I do not want to conflate this discussion with things like IRP cards and how fast we are renewing them or whatever. To be clear, I recognise the problem that was in that area. I have committed extra resources and have asked my officials to commit extra resources to ensure we have a much better and more functioning process there. It does not have a particular impact in this area.  I want to challenge Senator McCarthy on one thing. I take his bona fides on it and he brought a smile to my face with the notion that he could be in favour of an open-door immigration policy one day and the next be accused of being anti-migrant. It is something as Minister of State with responsibility for migration that I experience almost daily. Sometimes it can happen within an hour and within the one debate.  Language is so important. I really value the work that is done by so many people who have come into this country, who work not just in the health system but in our tech industry and in construction. I want them to be here. I want them to participate fully in the country they have chosen to live in and to be able to work and to do all the other things. However, they do not come for citizenship. They come because they want to work, to live here, to participate and to base themselves here. The notion that somehow or other they think they have an automatic right to Irish citizenship because they have come here to work is not an idea I support. Citizenship is a privilege. It is something people must value, and they must have that as part of a process that is fair to them and to the State. That does not mean we want them to leave or that we somehow or other do not value them as much. Many EU states have a residence period of ten years and many have one of eight or nine years. Yes, others have a shorter period. Until now, we have had a shorter period. That does not mean that those states value or devalue those people. It does not mean that we use the number of years to compete as to whether or not people come here to work. I would like to think that one of the reasons people come here to work is that they get an opportunity to be part of a vibrant, strong, modern Ireland, to choose to earn their living here and to get the benefits of the pay and conditions available here in the industry or job in which they have chosen to work. I would be disappointed if the idea was that they picked a country off a map because they thought they would get citizenship in five years. If they have a plan that wants them to be here for long, surely we can build those extra few years into it.  Issues were mentioned and thrown out about language support and that we must support people. To make it clear, we already do. We have integration funding and supports that help, through partnerships, people with language and language skills. It is critical that if someone wants to play a firm, developed role as a citizen in the country they have chosen to get citizenship in, their integration is based on the fact that they can use one of the main languages, whether the day-to-day language of English or the other official languages of Irish or Irish Sign Language. That is so important. I do not for one minute think that is an impediment to somebody getting citizenship. That is an enhancing process for someone to be able to use their citizenship to enjoy the full benefits of having it.  I thank the Senators for their remarks. I look forward particularly to engaging with those who are on the justice committee and who have indicated their involvement in this process. We have now a process that will take place. At its heart, I believe that at the end of it we will have a better, more effective system that is fair to all. That is what the Minister and I want to see in terms of this legislative change. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  I ask the Acting Leader when it is proposed to sit again. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robbie Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Robbie Gallagher  At 1 p.m. next Tuesday. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  Is that agreed? Agreed. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an Seanad ar athl\u00f3 ar 2.24 p.m. go dt\u00ed 1 p.m., D\u00e9 M\u00e1irt, an 29 Me\u00e1n F\u00f3mhair 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The Seanad adjourned at 2.24 p.m. until 1 p.m. on Tuesday, 29 September 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Naturalisation and Citizenship: Statements"}]}}]},"contextDate":"2026-09-24"},{"debateRecord":{"house":{"showAs":"34th D\u00e1il","committeeCode":"","houseCode":"dail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/house\/dail\/34","chamberType":"house","houseNo":"34"},"chamber":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/def\/house\/dail","showAs":"D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann"},"lastUpdated":"2026-09-24T18:33:13+00:00","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/main","formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/mul@\/main.xml"},"pdf":null},"date":"2026-09-24","counts":{"contributorCount":61,"divisionCount":0,"debateSectionCount":44,"questionCount":26,"billCount":1},"debateType":"debate","debateSections":[{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_2","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":false,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_3","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Social Welfare Appeals","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_2","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_3.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Louise O'Reilly  Mine is a fairly straightforward question. I need to understand what the Minister is doing to improve the quality and consistency of first-instance decisions. The reason I ask is partly due to the fact that I am tracking the figures but also due to what I see coming into my constituency office. I ask the Minister to refer, if he could, to the domiciliary care allowance application process.  That is the one that, anecdotally and according to the figures, seems to be the most problematic. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Social Protection (Deputy Dara Calleary)  Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an Teachta as an gceist seo. As she knows, we in the Department are committed to ensuring that decisions on social welfare applications are of consistently high quality and in accordance with legislative provisions and the general principles of fair procedures and natural justice.  Proportionally, the number of appeals received equates to about 1% of all decisions that are made by the Department. In 2024, the Department reported 3.4 million decisions and the appeals office reviewed 40,684 appeals. In 2025, the Department made almost 3.6 million decisions. The number of appeals received was lower at 39,642.  We have worked hard to improve the appeals service. In 2025, a total of 51,638 appeals were finalised. Of these, 24% were revised by the scheme area of the Department without having to be considered by an appeals officer. This means that the decision was revised at the earliest part of the review or appeals process. Some 21% were allowed or partially allowed by an appeals officer and 46% were disallowed. The remaining appeals cases were withdrawn.  It is important to note that where an appeal is allowed or partially allowed or a decision is reversed, this does not necessarily indicate that the original decision was incorrect. In many cases, an appellant submits additional information or evidence during the review or appeals process that was not available to the deciding officer. That is where I am going to focus. I will focus on getting that information and encouraging the provision of that information at the beginning.  I thank the appeals office, which is doing extraordinary work at the moment. It significantly reduced the number of appeals awaiting decision in 2025. Appeals on hand reduced from 21,629 at the beginning of 2025 to 9,633 at the end of the year, which was a 55% reduction. That movement has continued throughout 2026. At the end of June, we had 6,695.  The waiting list for domiciliary care allowance appeals is just over nine weeks at the moment. We are at all times focused on bringing that down. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Louise O'Reilly  The domiciliary care allowance and disability allowance are particular concerns for me. I have spoken previously about the issues. It is rough on the families. They have to write about their children on their worst days and about all the bad things that they do to the family. That is not where people want to be. Considerable work could be done by the Minister's Department in advance of that.  Notwithstanding that, for 60% of domiciliary care allowance applications, the original decision is overturned on appeal. The Minister is telling us that 45% of appeals are upheld and 24% of them are upheld without having to go to a higher officer. That is not a case of more information being added. That points to something being missed in the first instance.  I want to convey to the Minister on behalf of my constituents and the multiple people who have contacted me about the issue that the appeals process is very rough for those people who are going through it. When their circumstances do not change, their appeals are being overturned. I understand that there is sometimes new evidence but sometimes there is none, and that is a problem. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  I assure the Deputy that we do not want it to be that way. Way back in the spring of last year, our first Question Time focused on the domiciliary care allowance. I thank the Deputy for her interest. We have worked hard to try to make it as easy as possible. We introduced online applications. We are introducing an online appeals office, which gives people time in their own space to do that. We are constantly working to make it as easy as possible. The applications process is now online. Since it went online, just over 45% of applications have come in online, which probably gives an idea of the profile of the demographic applying. I am constantly focused on the issue. As I said, the waiting period for the domiciliary care allowance is 9.2 weeks for appeals. That was considerably higher prior to the focus that the appeals office has been putting on it. We had discussions last week at management board level as to how we could make the appeals process tighter for disability allowance, in particular. The amount of information that can come in on an appeal is quite extensive. That changes a lot decisions. To go through that information takes time. We are looking at how we can use our best processes to manage that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Louise O'Reilly  An overturn rate of 60% points to a problem. I also thank the people in the appeals office. We deal with them on a regular basis and I know they are doing their best. Having said that, there is an issue. I cannot think of any other instance where there would be a 60% overturn rate. That kind of rate is a structural failure. I am not necessarily calling it an \"error rate\", but the original decisions are not good and that is why they are overturned. In the intervening time, families are left without money. I welcome the fact that the waiting time is coming down, but it is still nine weeks that people will be left without money and there will then be more time required to process that. There is only so much that people can do while they are waiting. There is a toll on families.  I welcome the focus on the appeals process. I would welcome and appreciate it were the committee to get regular updates on what is happening and if things are going in the right direction. Sometimes, the anecdotal evidence takes a while to catch up, and that is fine and I am perfectly willing to accept it. For the moment, however, I see from the people coming into my office and from people contacting me from outside my constituency that the 60% figure is a worry. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  I would not say that 60% of decisions are overturned. That figure means that extra information was supplied during the appeal or review. That information might not have been available originally and would have changed the outcome.  I will certainly give an update. We will try to give a regular update to the committee. It would be of use to me, too, so we can look to see where there are pressure points. I thank the chief appeals officer and her staff. They have put significant work and investment into dealing with this issue. They constantly show their empathetic natures and understand the need to guide people and mind them through the appeals process. People are under considerable pressure and the appeals office is attuned to that. We are more than happy to deal with any specific case that the Deputy has in mind. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Social Welfare Appeals"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_4","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Social Welfare Payments","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_2","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_4","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin Hayes","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_4.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin Hayes","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin Hayes  My question is about the uptake of the working family payment. As the Minister knows, child poverty is one of the priorities for the Government and a major scourge within our society. I would like to hear how the Government is focusing on getting families who need that payment and would do very well with it to take it up. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  I thank the Deputy for his question. As he knows, reducing poverty and supporting families begins with ensuring that people are aware of the assistance available to them. The working family payment is a weekly, tax-free payment for employees on low earnings who have children. Evidence shows that it is an effective means of targeting support towards vulnerable working families and reducing their risk of poverty. This Government has therefore increased the working family payment income thresholds in successive budgets, enabling more families to qualify.  My Department promotes the scheme across the year through information campaigns, engagement with stakeholders, direct communications, information on our website and through social media. We have amended the application process to make it as clear and straightforward as possible. We have also introduced an online application process through mywelfare.ie .  The budget process always raises awareness of the working family payment. As part of budget 2026, we increased the working family income threshold by \u20ac60 for every family size. I also increased eligibility for the fuel allowance to include working family payment recipients. That had a significant impact on the amount of applications we received. The number of families receiving the working family payment has increased from 47,000 in 2023 to more than 56,000 in 2026, which is an increase of almost 20%.  My Department and I are focused on continuing to improve awareness of all of our schemes, improve accessibility to the understanding of those schemes and to improve the uptake of those schemes. When we complete the current budget process with whatever changes are made, we will once again renew promotional campaigns and awareness-building campaigns. We will also work with various employer groups to ensure they are aware that their employees could be entitled to this payment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin Hayes","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin Hayes  I thank the Minister for his reply. On Committee Stage, the assistant secretary general shared the information that, as the Minister said, there would be 56,000 recipients in 2026. However, the Department estimates a 53% uptake among those who are eligible, which means that approximately 50,000 people who would get that payment were they to apply for it are not getting it. That is a big problem. What comes to mind for me is the fact that the Government was able to work with Revenue to identify all recipients of carer's allowance and target them in quite a negative way in terms of tax bands.  It seems the Minister is not doing the positive side of that story, which is working with other agencies to target the families who need support, reach out to them, send the community welfare officers out, send officials from the Department out or whatever it is. For some reason, the Minister is not focusing on these neediest families. I ask him to consider how he can work to identify these families and reach out to them proactively rather than relying solely on an application process. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  The 50% figure is based on a 2023 paper by the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI. Since then, as I said, we have increased the number of families by 20% and that continues to increase. The working family payment, because it is connected to earnings, is complicated and complex. That earning profile can change depending on work patterns so it is not a direct correlation in terms of it. Certainly, however, I will ask my officials to pursue if there will be information available through working with Revenue. We had a debate in this Chamber on Tuesday evening about not sharing information. We also have to be very careful in relation to that. I have to say that I think the Deputy will see greater uptake. The alignment of the fuel allowance payment to the working family payment did more to raise awareness of the working family payment than a lot of things. I think the 2026 figures will show growth. The working family payment is one of the most important payments in the Department. It encourages people to go out to work. It acknowledges that there is an expense in going to work. I will be doing my utmost to promote its availability and accessibility but also to ensure people know they may or may not qualify for it. That is the biggest challenge with the working family payment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin Hayes","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin Hayes  I accept that. I appreciate anything the Minister and his officials do in that regard. It is important to acknowledge that consistent child poverty is at 8%, so it is double what it was before. When we take housing into account, it is about 10%. It is about 26.6% for families whose youngest child is between the ages of zero and five. Working families really do need this kind of support.  Child poverty is something that comes up in the context of the budget every year. Last year, the Taoiseach said he wanted a second tier of child benefit. The Minister said he wanted a second tier of child benefit; he did not deliver it. This year, the Minister said he would like to deliver a second tier of child benefit but he cannot deliver it in this budget. It would, therefore, be helpful to know what he thinks about reforming the working family payment and this question of second tier of child benefit. What is the plan over the course of the Government? Will the Minister introduce it over the coming years? Why not this year? Importantly, I spoke to a paediatrician recently. I was expecting her to talk about healthcare or the HSE. The thing she focused on was child poverty and this question of a second tier of child benefit. I would be really interested to know how the Minister is actually going to tackle this problem, including the housing costs that are plunging people into poverty. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  I assure the Deputy that we are very focused on child poverty. I am not just waiting; we are doing a lot of consultation on what a second tier of child payment might look like. One of the models that is most quoted would result in potentially thousands of families getting lower income on that model, so it is important that we review all the options.  We moved last year in budget 2026 to increase the child support payment by \u20ac16 and \u20ac8. That was a record increase. We are negotiating with the Department of public expenditure in relation to the child support payment for this year. That goes directly to the lowest income families. As I said, we also increased the threshold for the working family payment last year and we added the fuel allowance to the working family payment. It was first time people who were in work were able to access the fuel allowance. That was worth, given the extended season, about \u20ac1,100 per year to those working families.  We are doing the work on what a second tier of payment might look like but we are also ensuring those families are getting payments and support when they need it most. We will continue the work. I do not want a situation where, potentially, up to 100,000 families are worse-off because we introduced a second tier of child payment. That is not going to happen. In the meantime, we are supplementing their working incomes as well. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Social Welfare Payments"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_5","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Child Poverty","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_2","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_5","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_5.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Louise O'Reilly  The ESRI findings on child poverty are a pretty damning indictment of the statements the Minister and the Government make. I think we will find it very hard to disagree with that. I am interested to know whether the Minister accepts the ESRI findings and its statement that \"the Government is very far from meeting its target with regard to reducing child poverty\". Rhetoric is one thing, and to be fair to the Minister's boss he is very big on that, but actual delivery is another. The statistics do not bear out what the Minister says in this Chamber. It does not seem to be translating. I want to know specifically whether the Minister accepts the ESRI findings. Does he accept that child poverty is rising? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  I thank the Deputy. I welcome the publication of the ESRI report and the focus it puts on child poverty. The focus is very much aligned with mine and the Government's, including my boss, which includes the reduction in child poverty as one of his top priorities. Our determination to deliver this priority has been reflected in a number of major measures, which I have just discussed with Deputy Hayes but I will reiterate them for the House. We have significant increases in the targeted payments, namely, the working family payment and child support payment. That includes 26% in the over-12 child support payment in 2026, which followed on from a 15% increase in the 2025 payment. We have made successive increases of \u20ac60 per week in the working family payment threshold and, as I said, we have expanded access to the fuel allowance for nearly 50,000 families who are in receipt of the payment. These increases are in addition to the expansion of the hot school meals programme, the introduction of the free school books programme and the provision of free GP care for children.  In the context of my Department, the total value in budget 2026 alone was \u20ac320 million. Many of these measures have not yet been reflected in the survey on income and living conditions, SILC, data on which much of the ESRI report is based. However, I note that while there has been an increase in the number of people living at home at risk of poverty, the core measure for consistent poverty, which is favoured by many advocacy groups, has improved. It was at 7.8% in 2025, down from 8.5% in 2024. That is too high and I am focused on driving that down.  There are a number of proposals within the ESRI report. The proposal for a two-tier payment, which we just discussed, differs from the proposal contained in the 2025 edition of the report. That indicates that this is a complex challenge. It is complex to get a new payment structure that reaches more families at risk of poverty without disadvantaging those who are already in receipt of existing claims. We had 270 submissions in response to our public consultation and we will be including the work of the ESRI. We will be engaging with the committee in relation to this. My most important work here is to ensure that we do not disadvantage families by moving to a different model. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Louise O'Reilly  I do not think the measure the Government uses for poverty will in any way interfere with the people who are living with material deprivation. I genuinely think they do not care what metric the Government chooses to measure it by because they are in poverty. The ESRI tells us very clearly that there is a rise. Some 17.4% of children are living below the poverty line. After housing costs, that goes to 22.7%. In fact, we are going in the wrong direction when it comes to child poverty. That is not a failure of the systems that are used to measure it. With the greatest of respect, that is a failure of the Government and the gap between what the Minister says he wants to do and what he actually does. The Minister has spoken repeatedly about a second tier of child benefit. That is something he should look at because the families of those children living in those homes need in-cash transfers to be able to get themselves out of poverty. Rather than quibble about those figures from the ESRI, the trend, no matter what way we measure it, is only going in one direction. That speaks to the fact that there is a gap between what the Minister said and what the reality is and that gap is widening, not closing. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  We also look at the measurement of consistent poverty. That is taken from the Central Statistics Office's, CSO\u2019s, indicator of consistent poverty. Our child poverty target is based on the CSO figures. The CSO's Survey on Income and Living Conditions, SILC, 2025 showed a decrease in consistent poverty from 8.5% to 7.8%. It also showed an increase in children experiencing enforced deprivation from 21.2% in 2024 to 19.6% in 2025. The social protection measures in budget 2025 and budget 2026 are not captured in those figures because there is a lag in terms of how those figures are measured. We are again in negotiations with the Department of public expenditure for a substantial child poverty package in the context of budget 2027.  They are in addition to the school meals programme - which, for a family with up to two children, can save up to \u20ac1,100 per year - the schools books programme and various other initiatives that are under way under other Departments.  We are very focused on this. We are seeing progress. Is it quick enough? No, absolutely not. The second-tier payment will be part of that. I reiterate that some of those who are promoting models that are being discussed and endorsed at the moment would leave families on lower incomes worse off. We cannot allow that situation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Louise O'Reilly  I do not think the Minister is in any danger of leaving people worse off just because he thinks the measurement might be off. With the greatest of respect, I think that is a bit of a nonsense argument. The Minister can see the trend and what way it is going. I do not want to get into an argument because there are people at home who, God love them, might be watching this wondering what we are talking about. This is about child poverty, yet they would see the Minister and me arguing about the figures. The measurement the ESRI gives us is a very important one, as is the fact that it gives its own narrative opinion, which is that the Government is very far from meeting its target. This is a fact. The ESRI is a very respected institution. Its estimation of what the Government and the Minister's Department are doing is that they are very far from meeting their target. There seems to be a huge gap between talking about an additional rate of child benefit and doing it. I sincerely hope the Minister does not wait until just before the next election before rolling out a package because people, and children in particular, need that support now. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  I can assure the Deputy that we are not just talking. I reiterate the changes in last year's budget in the context of the child support payment, which included a record increase, particularly for over-12s, the full expansion of the hot schools meals programme and the expansion of the fuel allowance to working family payment recipients, with 50,000 extra families entitled to the fuel allowance. They will all make a difference on those figures. Yes, the ESRI is respected. I listen to it and I value its opinion but when I look at the figures from the Central Statistics Offices, CSO, which has access to live figures and detailed information, they are showing us going in the right direction in terms of a reduction from 8.5% to 7.8%, and from 21.2% in 2024 with regard to children in forced deprivation to 19.6%. All of that is happening in the context of a growing population. Is it fast enough? Absolutely not. That is why we continue to direct resources and time and inject energy into this. The consultation in relation to the second-tier payment has given us a lot of food for thought, with over 220 submissions that will be seriously considered. I will engage with the joint committee on these and we will bring clarity to this a lot quicker than the timeline I just outlined. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Child Poverty"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_6","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"State Pensions","counts":{"speechCount":7,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_2","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_6","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paula Butterly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paula-Butterly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paula-Butterly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Maxwell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_6.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paula Butterly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paula-Butterly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paula-Butterly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paula Butterly  There is still a significant amount of women of older generations who are not eligible for State contributory pensions despite having made PSRI contributions through employment during their working lives but who do not have a sufficient contribution record to qualify for a pension when they come of pensionable age. Is the Minister considering any further measures to recognise these periods spent outside of the workforce due to family responsibilities or a caring role? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  I thank Deputy Butterly for her question. As the Deputy knows, the State contributory pension is financed through the Social Insurance Fund, with entitlement based on a person\u2019s social insurance record. To qualify, a person must generally have at least 520 paid contributions, which is equivalent to ten years of contributions. This requirement maintains the contributory nature of the scheme. It ensures a sufficient connection with the social insurance system.  The system makes significant provisions for gaps in a person\u2019s contribution record arising from caring responsibilities. Up to 20 years of home caring periods or homemaking disregards may be included when calculating a person\u2019s rate of contributory State pension, subject to the relevant conditions. These periods can improve the rate of pension payable but they do not satisfy the minimum requirement of 520 paid contributions.  Further, where a person has provided full-time care to an incapacitated person for a total of at least 20 years, long-term carer's contributions may be awarded. These are treated in the same manner as paid contributions for the contributory pension. This can enable a long-term carer to qualify even where they do not otherwise have the 520 paid contributions.  For those who do not qualify for a contributory State pension or who qualify for a reduced rate, they can apply for the means-tested non-contributory pension, which provides an important pension safety net subject to the relevant means, habitual residence and other qualifying conditions. Alternatively, as the Deputy will be aware, where a person is receiving a contributory State pension, an increase for a qualified adult may be payable in respect of their spouse or partner, subject to an assessment of the qualified adult\u2019s means. We hope that these measures mean that no one with a financial need is excluded from a payment in their old age.  In its 2021 report, the Commission on Pensions strongly supported the minimum requirement of 520 paid contributions. Any future changes to that would have to be considered in the context of the sustainability of the State pension fund and the Social Insurance Fund going forward. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paula Butterly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paula-Butterly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paula-Butterly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paula Butterly  I acknowledge the measures that have been introduced over recent years, including the homemakers scheme, home caring periods and long-term carer's contributions. They are positive developments and help to ensure that caring work receives greater recognition within the pension scheme. However, some women from older generations are not benefiting fully from these reforms because they had already reached the pension age before many of these measures were introduced or because they do not have the minimum level of paid contributions needed to access the contributory pension scheme. A concern for me, particularly in my constituency in County Louth, relates to women whose caring years took place largely before 1994. While home caring periods and other reforms have improved recognition of caring responsibilities, many women feel they have received little recognition for years spent raising families at a time when pensions supports for carers were far less developed. Many of these women made contributions during their working lives. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  The Social Welfare Act 1997 legislated for changes in the minimum number of paid contributions. The number increased to 520 in April 2012. The homemakers scheme allowed time spent caring for children under 12 since 1994 to be disregarded in the divisor of the yearly average method of calculation. Home caring periods were introduced for those who reached State pension age after September 2012. They can be awarded from any time, including pre-1994. Each of the pension caring supports is specific to the method of calculation but we have to ensure equality, and there is a concern that if pre-2012 pensioners were also allowed to avail of the total contributions approach, including home caring periods, their arrangements would be significantly more generous than those of post-2012 pensioners. I am happy to engage with the Deputy if she has specific cases, so we can give her a more detailed response. We are very focused on the sustainability of the pension fund going forward but we do want to acknowledge those who spent time away from the workforce in a caring capacity. I am anxious, within the context of sustainability, that people do not lose out and about the need for fairness for every pensioner. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paula Butterly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paula-Butterly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paula-Butterly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paula Butterly  I thank the Minister for offering to look at this in more detail, including specific cases. These women, for decades, did everything that society asked them to do. They worked, stayed at home and took care of their children and other family members. It is really important because it is that cohort of older women, who in many cases could be our own mothers, who do not have their own financial independence. It is maybe means-tested or linked to their spouses' entitlements. That is really unfair and when we talk about equality, we have to give women the recognition for the work they have done inside and outside the home down through the decades. We are in modern times and we keep saying there is more equality but where is the equality for that cohort of women? The only options they had back in the day was the famous pin money or runaway money. Let us give them that comfort. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  I will engage with the Deputy because that is also the cohort of women that was forced to give up work when they got married, by law. My own mother was one of those. We will certainly engage with the Deputy but it is important that we have that concept of fairness across the system. We also have to keep a very firm eye on sustainability, as we are all getting older. The Deputy is right in regard to those people who made caring their priority and had no other choice. We will engage with her in that space. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Maxwell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy David Maxwell)  With the permission of the House I will go back to question No. 4. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"State Pensions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_7","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Social Welfare Code","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_2","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_7","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_7.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mark Wall  Thank you very much, a Chathaoirligh. I thank the Minister for taking the question. Is he considering extending the age of domiciliary care allowance from its current position of 16 years of age to 18 years in the upcoming budget? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  I thank the Deputy for his ongoing interest in that. The domiciliary care allowance, DCA, is payable to a parent or guardian in respect of a child under 16 who has a severe disability and requires continuous care and attention. There are currently 65,950 families receiving this allowance in respect of approximately 75,500 children at an investment of almost \u20ac359 million in 2026. DCA stops being paid when a child turns 16. That aligns with the age disability allowance becomes available. If the young person has a disability that significantly impacts their daily living activities, they can then apply for a disability allowance payment in their own right of \u20ac254 per week, subject to satisfying the qualifying conditions for that scheme. That compares with a monthly payment of \u20ac380 under DCA.  I have no plans at this point to extend the age of entitlement for DCA. My focus in relation to carers remains the process of phasing out the means test for carer\u2019s allowance, which is consistent with the policy approach advocated in the programme for Government and by family carer organisations. As the Deputy knows, significant improvements have been made in this area over the last number of years. Where a parent or guardian in receipt of DCA is also receiving carer\u2019s allowance or carer\u2019s benefit, those payments may continue after their child turns 16 where the qualifying conditions are met. There is also the carer\u2019s support grant which is payable where full-time care continues.  I am absolutely focused on keeping the range of supports under review. This has been examined and predecessors in the Department tried to make movement on this some time ago but there is considerable debate within communities about this. I am happy to engage with Deputy Wall on how we could do it. We might get a chance with the next question to go through some of the concerns people have in this space. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mark Wall  I thank the Minister. I have been on this for six years now and I spoke to his predecessor about it. She made attempts to raise this from 16 to 18 as well. The Minister has continued on that and we have had a number of conversations on it.  Recently we conducted a survey of almost 1,000 people and well over 900 of them wanted this increase. They wanted it because they are finding it very difficult to prove, in their opinion, that their child who continues to have the disability qualifies for disability allowance. Disability allowance is in essence a job-seeking payment and that is the problem here. When you have a child who is 16 and going to a special school or a mainstream one, it is so difficult to prove that child is not fit for work, basically. That is what the vast majority of parents we dealt with in that survey have said and it is why they are looking for this extension. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  I am happy to engage with the Deputy on the survey and the feedback on it. DCA is not means-tested or taxable. We discussed with Deputy O'Reilly earlier that we have done a lot of work to try to reduce the burden of the application process and the appeal waiting times. The number of families in receipt of DCA has increased by 41% in the last five years and more than doubled in the last ten. The number of children for whom a DCA is paid has increased by an even further amount.  I will certainly engage with the Deputy on it. I have looked at this since he began raising it with me and gone through previous files. There are very differing opinions even with some of the disability groups on it. It would a worthwhile discussion at the committee - I see the Chairman is here - to engage with this and understand where people's feelings are strongest on this and why in particular there is a lot of opposition to it. I would like to engage with the Deputy on the survey and go through it. I can see Deputy Boyd Barrett looking at me as well. I would like to engage on what this change would mean and what the drawbacks of it are. We have to go through those drawbacks, which have been outlined by a number of groups in recent years. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mark Wall  The Minister has thoroughly engaged with me on this matter but the issue is the latest figures we have from his Department show nearly 16% of children were refused disability allowance when coming from DCA. That is almost 1,300 children who now have no payment. As the parents of those children regularly tell me, and I am sure other Members, their child's disability has not gone away. It is just they have been unable to prove and qualify for disability allowance. The disabilities their child and loved one has remain and they are still paying for it. They are paying for private services, as we know, though I am not going to go into that today. The problem we have is what to do for those 1,300 children and their families who are now without a payment. As the Minister said, there are more people entitled to DCA and that is good but the figure is only going to grow, so it is a debate we need to have. The vast majority of respondents to our survey said they wished for the age limit to be extended. I hope we can have further discussions on it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  Let us do that and let us bring this to a head. It will not be in advance of this budget but let us bring it to a head over the course of the next number of months and try to get an understanding on some sort of agreed way forward. Previous Ministers tried to change this and they had to stop. We will certainly look at the Deputy's survey, engage with the committee and get a number of different perspectives on that. Ultimately, it is those children and their parents we need to keep our focus on so we do not have that cliff-edge at such an early stage in life. I am happy to engage and will get my office to follow up on that. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Social Welfare Code"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_8","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":false,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_9","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Budget 2027","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_8","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_9","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Paul O'Shea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_9.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Paul O'Shea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Paul O'Shea  I agree with Deputy Wall on the domiciliary care allowance. We agreed at the committee yesterday to block off a bit of time to discuss that and prepare a report for the Minister.  I take this opportunity to recognise the extraordinary contribution made by family carers across the country. Every day, carers provide love, support and care to family members who depend on them. They allow people to remain at home and part of their communities to live life with dignity. I am asking whether the Minister will increase support for carers in budget 2027. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  I thank the Deputy. The Government recognises the invaluable contribution made by carers and we have prioritised improvements in supports for carers in recent budgets. We have provided over \u20ac2.2 billion for caring income supports in 2026. That included a \u20ac10 increase in the maximum personal rate of carer's allowance and carer's benefit to \u20ac270 and \u20ac271, respectively, for carers under 66. For carers aged 66 and over the maximum weekly rate increased to \u20ac308. For carers with children the weekly rates of the child support payment increased by \u20ac16 to \u20ac78 for children aged 12 and over and by \u20ac8 to \u20ac58 for under-12s from January 2026. This was the largest child support payment increase in the history of the State.  In budget 2026, the weekly income disregards for carer's allowance were increased significantly to \u20ac1,000 for a single person and \u20ac2,000 for a couple, which built on significant improvements introduced in recent budgets. As a result, a carer in a two-adult household with an income of \u20ac110,000 will retain their full carer\u2019s allowance payment and receive a partial payment with a household income up to \u20ac138,000. This means virtually all those receiving carer's allowance are now receiving the maximum rate. The Government has also provided a range of other supports, including the payment of the carer's support grant, and the \u20ac20 increase to domiciliary care allowance.  We are engaging with the Department of public expenditure on potential budget measures. Discussions are still going on and the Ministers for Finance and public expenditure will reveal the budget on 6 October. I assure the Deputy we are very committed to moving forward on our shared programme for Government commitments to carers and to supporting them and I am continuing to focus on that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Paul O'Shea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Paul O'Shea  I thank the Minister. The contribution carers make cannot be measured simply in financial terms but we should recognise the work of family carers also represents an enormous contribution to the State and to our public services. I also acknowledge the progress the Government has made in supporting carers. In particular I welcome the very significant increase in the income disregards for carer's allowance introduced last year. That was an important step in recognising the people should not be forced to choose between caring for a loved one and having the opportunity to work and earn an income.  I believe we should go further so my ask for budget 2027 is that we increase those income disregards again. We should continue on the path we have started. The ultimate objective should be to move towards removing the means test for the carer's allowance altogether. A person who is providing substantial care to a loved one should not feel that he or she is being penalised because he or she has some income of his or her own. We should be encouraging carers who can work to remain connected to the workforce rather than creating barriers for them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  I agree with the Deputy regarding the focus we need to put on carers. We also need to mind existing carers as well. We will see through our commitment regarding abolishing the means test over the lifetime of the Government but I am also focused on existing carers. That is why over the past number of years, we have continued to increase the weekly rate of carer's allowance, which is now at \u20ac270. In January 2022, it was \u20ac224. We have expanded eligibility for the carer's support grant and are consistently engaging with carers' organisations. We hold a carers forum in the Department every May where representatives of young carers, Care Alliance Ireland and Family Carers Ireland come together - not just officials but carers from across the country - and we engage with them and bring in other Departments. It is not just about the Department of Social Protection. We also bring in representatives from the Departments of Health and public expenditure in a cross-government initiative so we can assist them. I will be meeting Family Carers Ireland this weekend ahead of the budget to discuss its priorities. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Paul O'Shea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Paul O'Shea  I recently met Family Carers Ireland at its regional meeting in Cork. I know that Members right across this House have met many family carers and associations associated with caring in recent weeks. We should recognise that caring in itself is a hugely valuable contribution to society. I commend the Minister and the Government on the progress they made last year but I do not want us to stop here. Let us use budget 2027 to take another significant step forward by increasing the income disregards again and let us set ourselves the longer-term ambition of moving away from the means test model. Our family carers do an extraordinary job for their loved ones and for our country. They deserve our recognition but, more importantly, they deserve a system that supports them rather than one that puts unnecessary barriers in their way, so I hope, from his contribution this morning, the Minister will continue to support carers in budget 2027. Will he make that journey? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  I assure the Deputy we have very strong and ambitious commitments relating to carers in the programme for Government and I will see them through. I also want to ensure that we focus on existing carers but also on young carers. The young carers who attended the carers forum made a huge impression on me in terms of their daily lives, what they are doing for their loved ones while continuing education and work and the pressures of it places on them. I will work with other colleagues in government in terms of specific supports for young carers. I will work with the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, and the Minister for Health on how we mind all carers but particularly that cohort of young carers. I will be engaging with Family Carers Ireland at this weekend. We have ongoing engagement with it. I thank it and Care Alliance Ireland. I also thank the Deputies who really focus on the work of carers. Collectively, we very much appreciate the work they are doing but appreciation will not put lights on in a house. We have to show real cause and this Government is showing real cause. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Budget 2027"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_10","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Social Welfare Payments","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_8","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_10","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_10.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Seamus Healy  Will the Minister will increase the carer's support grant in the forthcoming budget in two weeks' time? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  I acknowledge the Deputy as one who has constantly and consistently championed this issue. As I said, we have consistently improved our support for carers and \u20ac2.2 billion will be provided for carer's income supports in 2026. The carer's allowance is the main income support payment for family carers. Over 111,000 people are receiving the payment at an estimated cost of more than \u20ac1.4 billion. The carer's support grant is automatically paid to people in receipt of carer's allowance, carer's benefit and domiciliary care allowance. Other carers who are not in receipt of a carer's payment may also be eligible for the grant. A separate grant is paid for each person being cared for. The grant was increased by \u20ac150 to \u20ac2,000 in June 2025, which is the highest ever level. In June of this year, over 147,000 carers perceived the grant. The grant is not means-tested and is non-taxable. The estimated investment in the grant in 2026 was over \u20ac364 million. We are continuing to accept applications for the grant so anyone who may have an entitlement can make an application through his or her local office or through mywelfare.ie . In the context of budget 2027, we are continuing to negotiate our budget with the Department of public expenditure. We will have a package for carers within that programme but we have not finalised our discussions yet. They will be announced on budget day on 6 October. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Seamus Healy  As the Minister knows, caring is a very onerous responsibility. It is often a 24-7, 365-day-a-year operation. Surveys by carers have shown that 75% of carers receive no respite whatsoever and the grant itself has been eaten up by inflation not to mention the cost of living over the past number of years. If we look at the past number of years from 2021, we can see that there has only been one year of an increase in the carer's support grant and that was \u20ac150 in 2025 and was, of course, in advance of the general election in November 2024. There was no increase in the grant in 2026. Family Carers Ireland is looking for an increase of \u20ac150, which is a very modest increase that, in fact, does not keep up with inflation and does not take into account the cost of living. It is a very modest request and I ask the Minister to include it in the budget. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  We are engaging around it. Given that the carer's support grant is not means-tested and is non-taxable, it is very important signal. That grant has increased by \u20ac300 since 2021. If we look at the rates of change in carer's benefit and carer's allowance in January 2022, we can see that carer's allowance was \u20ac224 a week in January 2022 and went to \u20ac270 and that carer's benefit has gone from \u20ac225 to \u20ac271. We are also investing considerably in the weekly payment that is given to carers. There have been a lot of changes in the carer's support grant over a number of years and we will continue to focus on it. The current rate is the highest rate ever and I think the highest number of people are in receipt of that payment. What I would say to all Deputies is that there is no closing date for applications for it and if there are people engaging with their offices, who are not getting it, please put them in contact with us. Over 147,000 carers have received the carer's support grant to date in 2026 out of an investment over \u20ac364 million. It was paid on 4 June and since that date, over 5,000 people have actually applied and qualified for the grant. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Seamus Healy  The Minister is not giving away much in his reply. The request by Family Carers Ireland is very modest. It certainly does not keep up with inflation and it certainly does not take the cost-of-living crisis into account. An increase of \u20ac150 on \u20ac2,000 is not a big request. For a very small amount of money, it does a particular amount of good and gives carers the opportunity to have a slight rest and a recharge of their batteries, so I hope that the Minister would see a way to do that in the budget. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  I assure the Deputy that we are very much focused on carers. If he thinks I am not giving away much, he should talk to the Minister for public expenditure. We are working hard in this space. In 2026, we invested \u20ac2.2 billion in carer's support payments, which is a really solid indication of where we are going on this. We pay the carer's support grant on 4 June every year, or the first Thursday in June every year. Since then, which is maybe less than three months ago, an additional 5,000 people have come into payment. I will ask my Department to do a bit of awareness-building that this grant is available. A lot of people who may be entitled to it may not realise they can draw it down without a means test. We are going to do some work on that. Most of us in this room would be a very effective channel of communicating that availability to people.  We had a discussion earlier. We need to make more information available to people. We have a lot of schemes, and this is one of them. I am pretty sure we will do that. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Social Welfare Payments"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_11","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Social Welfare Code","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_8","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_11","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin Hayes","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_11.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin Hayes","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin Hayes  My question is about the payments and income disregards, how they are adjusted over time to keep up with inflation and the changes to the national minimum wage. As the Minister might be aware, and I am sure many advocacy organisations have said to it to him as they have said it to me, the changes to the minimum wage have implied a certain number of hours that someone can work that puts them over the income disregard threshold. Therefore, if the minimum wage goes up, as it has in the last while, which is very welcome, some people who might have got a payment are no longer eligible. I would like to hear the Minister's thinking on that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  Changes to social welfare rates cannot be just based on trends in prices or wages but must take account of a wider range of factors, including household composition, patterns in the consumption of households and developments in services, including, for example, the expansion of free GP care, school meals and free school books. Accordingly, changes to social welfare rates, including means tests, are based on a wide range of inputs used by my Department, most notably CSO data, including the survey of income and living conditions, SILC, the labour force survey, the monthly CPI releases and the CSO earnings and hours in employment surveys. We also take account of ESRI research, analysis from the minimum essential standard of living studies of the Vincentian Partnership, which are funded by the Department, as well as extensive engagement with stakeholder and advocacy groups across the year, but particularly at our pre-budget forum and the annual social inclusion forum. The Department also undertakes social impact assessments using the SWITCH model developed by the ESRI, a model whose development and maintenance is also funded by the Department. These inputs provide a broader perspective and a deeper understanding.  Based on these inputs, several changes to income disregards have been implemented in recent years, including, for example, changes to means thresholds for the lone parent and disability payments. In June of this year, the income disregard for carer\u2019s allowance increased by \u20ac375 to \u20ac1,000 per week for a single person and by \u20ac750 to \u20ac2,000 per week for a couple. This increase was far in excess of inflation in 2026. With respect to payment rates, the increase in core rates of \u20ac10 per week in 2026 represented an increase of between 3.8% and 4.1% for working-age payments, which was also ahead of inflation. Notably, as we discussed earlier, increases of \u20ac8 for those under 12 and \u20ac16 for those over 12 in the child support payments represented increases of 16% and 26%, respectively.  We have tried to address many datasets in relation to income adequacy and look at the many supports that are available. We are very focused on this. We will not be found wanting in ensuring that families and welfare are protected from the impact of inflationary measures. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin Hayes","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin Hayes  I completely understand. The Minister trots out this line that he is keeping up with inflation or surpassing inflation. However, all the research would suggest - this is something put out by the European Union and the OECD - that the lower income populations have a higher rate of inflation because, as a proportion of their income or their costs, they often have to pick more expensive options. Whether it is pay-as-you-go electricity meters, not buying food in bulk or otherwise, a lot of things are really hard for those people. The Government is making an argument in the run-up to this budget that there should be indexation of tax measures. I think that is worth considering, but if that is true, we should also be looking at the indexation of other things. We should be looking at the indexation of income disregards and things like social protection payments. In particular, older people have been calling for a very long time for pensions to be indexed, but it is not something this Government or any previous Government has seriously taken up. I would like the Minister to consider this. If the Government is making an argument about indexation on one side - on tax - should it be making the same argument on social protection? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  As I said, we work hard to keep core social welfare rates ahead of inflation. We cannot just identify them in the context of not looking at the other supports that are available. On fuel allowance, we have increased the rate and the eligibility and, this year, we increased the season by an extra four weeks. That is an additional \u20ac1,100 of income for those 410,000 people who qualify, and that is on top of their weekly rate. I have referred to a range of other supports across the morning\u2019s session in this regard. We are investing \u20ac28.9 billion in our social protection system in 2026. There were increases in all of the core weekly rates, in addition to the support payments that are paid.  This budget will be very much focused on how we can target exactly those people discussed by the Deputy, those who are subject to high inflation in the context of fuel, food, children and supports. However, we cannot just look at the weekly rates. We have to look at the other range of supports that we fund, even within our own Department in the context of school meals. In other Departments, there is the example of the free school books scheme. Where the costs are, we have tried to make interventions to assist people. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin Hayes","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin Hayes  There is also the context of housing. We know that poverty is increasing when we take housing into account. I do not lay that at the Minister\u2019s door, and I believe it is a whole-of-government problem. The Minister said that he increased the fuel allowance by four weeks this year, and that was a welcome and needed measure. However, it is important for people to understand that it was actually a restoration. Fuel allowance was for 32 weeks before the austerity era. That is core to this whole problem: we do not look at indexation. The back-of-the-envelope calculations that I have done for social protection payments show they were worth more to people before austerity. We still have not closed the book on austerity, and what those payments would look like.  I absolutely welcome the change to the means test for carers. However, the disability allowance and blind pension have not been changed in several years. The jobseeker\u2019s transition payment takes account of the minimum wage changes, which puts certain lone parents out of qualifying for the payment because of income disregards. The wage subsidy scheme is also not keeping up with the minimum wage in terms of the number of people it can employ. Therefore, there are real issues relating to indexation. I would encourage the Minister to finally close the book on austerity. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  Core rates have increased for all payments, including disability allowance. Core rates in budget 2026 increased by 4.1%, and by 4.8% for some payments. Second, in the so-called noughties, what the Deputy calls pre-austerity, there were no hot school meals going to every primary school in the country. A minimum of 500,000 children are now receiving hot school meals every year. That is an investment of nearly \u20ac300 million. It is a cost reduction for families that otherwise would be paying for meals. Every family is getting it. That universality is important because in any given school, you do not know what is happening with any given child. That is why we went for the universal model. As for the free school books scheme, ten years ago, families would have paid for everything regarding books and school equipment when going back to school. That is now paid for centrally from the Department of Education. There are the weekly rates, but there are also other interventions that are reducing the burden of cost on families, in particular, low-income families. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Social Welfare Code"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_12","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Budget 2027","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_8","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_12","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_12.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Seamus Healy  I ask the Minister to honour in budget 2027, in two weeks time, the commitment made to abolish the means test for carer\u2019s allowance. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  Carer\u2019s allowance is the main income support for carers. Some 111,000 people are receiving the payment, with an estimated investment of over \u20ac1.4 billion this year. Carer's benefit is a weekly social insurance-based payment for those who leave the workforce or reduce their working hours to provide full-time care. At the end of August, there were 5,136 recipients of carer's benefit, with an investment of over \u20ac76 million this year.  The programme for Government commits to significantly increasing the income disregards for carer\u2019s allowance, with a commitment to phasing out the means test during the lifetime of this Government. It is not possible to do everything we might like to do in one year. Each year, I have to balance the value of any individual measure, no matter how much I support it, against other equally merited measures. However, as the Deputy will agree, the process of addressing the means test for carer\u2019s allowance is well under way.  As part of budget 2026, and with effect from July, we increased the weekly income disregard by 60% from \u20ac625 to \u20ac1,000 from \u20ac625 for a single person and from \u20ac1,250 to \u20ac2,000 for carers who are part of a couple. These disregards are now by far the highest in the social welfare system. The changes mean that a carer in a two-adult household with an income of \u20ac110,000 can retain their full carer\u2019s allowance payment or can receive a partial payment where the household income is up to \u20ac138,000. One consequence of this change is that virtually everyone on an existing payment on the scheme is receiving the maximum weekly rate.  In line with the carer\u2019s allowance income disregard for a single person, the earnings limit for carer\u2019s benefit was also increased in July to \u20ac1,000 per week. As discussed earlier, we are involved with budget negotiations. This is a very solid programme for Government commitment which I have made considerable progress on. I am determined to see it through. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Seamus Healy  In the run-up to general election in 2024, every party in this House, including Fianna F\u00e1il, made a commitment to abolish the means test for carers. It was not to be abolished over the lifetime of the Government or in two, three or four years. The commitment was to abolish the means test. That commitment was broken last year. From what the Minister said, it sounds as if we will have a similar situation this year. The fact is that, as the Minister is aware, the 500,000 carers we have save the State something like \u20ac20 billion per year. They are paid a very low hourly rate. Broken down, it amounts to \u20ac1.60 per hour. A survey shows that 75% of carers get no respite, 49% suffer from severe loneliness and 32% suffer from very bad mental health. There were increases in the income limits in this year's budget, and they are welcome, but they do not solve the problem. The moneys needed to do this are not significant. Both the Parliamentary Budget Office and Family Carers Ireland indicate that the sum involved is less than \u20ac400 million. I suggest that the Minister should honour the commitment in the forthcoming budget. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  The Deputy is very experienced. He knows there is a programme for Government. I hope to be in office for five years, and I will deliver on the commitment. It has to be done on a phased basis. I would love to do it overnight. If did that, however, the Deputy would be criticising me for not doing other things in the Department. We have had record increases. I genuinely think that any payment in respect of which you can have an income of \u20ac110,000 and retain the full allowance gives a sense of the direction of travel. In July, the income disregard was increased by 60% for a single person and for a couple. That gives a sense of my determination to drive this through. In addition, the vast majority of existing carers who are receiving a payment are on the maximum rate, which means that we have increased their income as well. I assure the Deputy that we are engaging and working on this in the context of our budget negotiations. We will invest \u20ac2.2 billion in supporting carers this year. I very much value their work and the work done on their behalf by Family Carers Ireland, Care Alliance Ireland and, especially, as we said earlier, the young carers' groups. That work is very important. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Seamus Healy  The Minister's party and every other party in this House made a commitment to the electorate. That commitment has not been honoured. That is a very serious situation because it calls into question people's trust in the democratic process and in politicians. That is serious. The Minister should take what I am saying on board and abolish the means test in the forthcoming budget. There are something like 33,000 carers in receipt of the carer's support grant who are not in receipt of the carer's allowance. That is a significant number. These people do the same work as all other carers. They are under the same pressures as other carers. They feel the same loneliness and have the same lack of respite and mental health difficulties. They should surely be entitled to the carer's allowance. The moneys involved are not significant. The Parliamentary Budget Office has indicated that. This is something which, in the context of the political and democratic processes and in the context of being fair to people, the Minister should introduce in the budget. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  Respectfully, I object to the Deputy's assertion that we are not delivering on this. There has been a 60% increase to the income disregard. Somebody on \u20ac110,000 can get a full carer's payment. We are working towards the abolition of the means test. I will examine the difference between the number of people receiving the carer's support grant and the number getting the carer's allowance. They may be people who are working and who do not want to get the full payment, but I will examine the position. I reiterate that there has been a 60% increase in the income disregard, which means that somebody on \u20ac110,000 can get a full payment. Somebody on \u20ac138,000 can get a partial payment. These are not inconsiderable payments, but I want to get to a stage where we abolish the means test in order to acknowledge the work of carers. I absolutely acknowledge it. I also want to make sure that as we expand it, we protect existing carers. I have to try to allocate my budget in a way that protects existing carers and expands the scheme. I assure the Deputy that if I get five years in this Department - and well before then - by the time we get to the next election, the Deputy and I will be able and say that the means test has been abolished. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Budget 2027"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_13","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Fuel Poverty","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_8","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_13","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_13.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett  It is shocking and shameful that in one of the richest countries in the world, one in seven households cannot afford to heat their homes or pay their energy bills. Some 400,000 households went without heating during the past 12 months. Many of those who are struggling with that - it is 64%, according to the ESRI - do not get any assistance at all because they are over the threshold for the fuel allowance. Will the Minister do anything about that to help people who are getting no assistance and who cannot pay their energy bills? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  Fuel allowance eligibility encompasses 23 qualifying schemes, demonstrating the comprehensive nature of the supports available to eligible households. In addition to these qualifying schemes, people over the age 66 do not need to be in receipt of a payment from the Department of Social Protection to qualify for fuel allowance, subject to the means test. According to the most recent CSO data, there are just over 1.8 million households in Ireland. Of these, 463,910 are currently eligible for the fuel allowance scheme. That is 26% of all households nationwide.  The report the Deputy is referring to is the Energy Poverty and Affordability in Ireland report. While the report does recommend broadening the eligibility requirement, it highlights that the fuel allowance is a well-targeted policy instrument in our effort to combat energy poverty. It also highlights that the allowance is effective in reducing the likelihood of people experiencing energy poverty. The figures used in the report are based on survey on income and living conditions, SILC, data from 2024. In the two years since, we have expanded the fuel allowance system to include the nearly 50,000 families who were brought into scheme this year by means of the extension of the fuel allowance to recipients of the working family payment. In addition, in the period since the 2024 SILC survey, the allowable means for fuel allowance was increased in 2025 and in 2026 for those aged 66 and over. The allowable means for those aged 66 and over now stands at \u20ac534 per week for a single person and up to \u20ac1,068 per week for a couple. The amount of savings and investments that are disregarded was also increased for those aged 66 and over, from \u20ac20,000 to \u20ac50,000. All of these - the rate measures and the one off payments that were made - have resulted in a significant investment in respect of dealing with fuel poverty, but I absolutely acknowledge and am very aware of the challenge that exists. We continue to negotiate our budget package on fuel. Energy is very much at the heart of that package. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett  Any of the improvements made since 2024 have been wiped out by Trump's warmongering and the profiteering of energy companies. The situation is set to get worse. The proof of that is that more than 500,000 households are currently in arrears on either their gas or electricity bills and that a massive chunk of people, in the region of 60%, who are suffering and will struggle even more this winter than last are not eligible for the fuel allowance.  Last night, the Government made the shameful decision to vote down our proposal which would have given \u20ac500 to every single household and more to those with a disability by taking \u20ac1 billion from the billionaire owners of data centres who are getting electricity at half the price of people who are struggling. It voted that down. Does the Minister know what the energy gap, as it is known, is? That is the gap that would take everyone out of energy poverty. It is \u20ac480. If the Government is not going to do what we asked last night, will it at least extend eligibility for the fuel allowance to those who need help? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  Eligibility for fuel allowance has been extended and has changed extensively over the past number of years. We introduced 50,000 new families into it. It is the first time fuel allowance has been extended to those on working incomes. It is something I want to continue that those in lower-paid jobs get support. Almost \u20ac557 million is being invested in the fuel allowance scheme and we are negotiating in the context of budget 2027 a very significant energy package across Government. The fuel allowance will form part of that. I note the Deputy\u2019s proposal, and other proposals on how we can target the fuel allowance more to assist people. We engage with families across the country. I thank those in the Money Advice and Budgeting Service, MABS, which engaged with energy companies on people's behalf. The fuel allowance, the Deputy has to admit, is significant and targeted and it is acknowledged as being targeted in the context of the report the Deputy framed his question on. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett  Yes, but 60% of people suffering energy poverty do not get it and that situation is going to be worse this winter because of Trump\u2019s warmongering - the man for whom the Government rolled out the red carpet in the past week or so. While it seems the Government is not willing to extend the fuel allowance to those who need it, it wants to continue to give \u20ac1 billion a year to data centres so that they can get energy at half the price of the people who cannot turn on the heating this winter. It is unbelievable. It shows really twisted priorities. The Government will not help people who will literally be shivering with the cold this winter, afraid to turn on electric heaters, but it will give half-price electricity to the billionaire owners of the data centres. The money is there if the Government wants to at least give the fuel allowance to people over that threshold, although we would go further. It is completely unfair. People are going to suffer real hardship this winter unless the Government does something. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  We have invested in this. Since 2020, an additional 100,000 households have qualified for the fuel allowance. As I said, we have gone through the extension of means for older people in particular and since 2020, we have invested \u20ac290 million in the fuel allowance. In 2026, we will invest \u20ac557 million and, subject to the budget negotiations, that will continue and grow. I am going to ensure that every Deputy in the House gets the 23 schemes available in terms of the fuel allowance and the supports. Some 100,000 additional households qualified for the fuel allowance in 2026 that did not qualify in 2020. We have extended the fuel allowance and the weekly rate of payment. We have made it easier in terms of means for older people who are most at risk of fuel poverty to get access to it as well. That is the trend and path of expansion I will continue and I am determined to negotiate a package in the context of budget 2027. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Fuel Poverty"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_14","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Care Services","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_8","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_14","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aisling Dempsey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_14.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aisling Dempsey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aisling Dempsey  I ask the Minister about the number of additional persons who have qualified for the carer's allowance since the increase in the weekly income disregard that took effect nationally in July 2026, and more particularly, in Meath West. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  The carer's allowance is a means-tested social assistance payment for people who are providing full-time care and attention to a person who requires such care. There are a number of qualifying conditions for carer\u2019s allowance. These include conditions relating to the care recipient's need for full-time care and attention, the provision of that care by the applicant, the applicant\u2019s employment or education circumstances, residency requirements and satisfaction of the means test.  As part of budget 2026, I announced significant improvements to the carer's allowance means test, which took effect from 2 July 2026. The weekly income disregard increased by 60%, from \u20ac625 to \u20ac1,000 for a single person and from \u20ac1,250 to \u20ac2,000 for carers who are part of a couple. The Department does not hold the detailed data on the income of each individual household in the State that would allow it to identify the number of additional people who qualified specifically as a result of the increase in the income disregard. Furthermore, statistics on carer's allowance recipients' are not compiled on a constituency basis and, therefore, I cannot give direct information for Meath West. Information is, however, available on the direct impact of the changes on existing recipients.  Following the increase in the income disregard in July 2026, approximately 2,700 carer's allowance recipients benefited from an increase in the weekly rate of payment. The overall number of people receiving carer's allowance at the end of August 2026 was 110,808. That compared to 97,985 in December 2024, and 104,522 in 2025. Much of that can be attributed to the increase in the means disregard. However, we also have to have an eye to the demographic and care changes in the State. The total number of recipients reflects new claims coming into payment and also claims which are completed or ceased where caring responsibilities may end. Recipient numbers are continuing to increase due to broader demographic and social factors. I assure the Deputy we recognise the invaluable contribution being made by family carers. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aisling Dempsey","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aisling-Dempsey.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aisling Dempsey  I thank the Minister for his response. It is unfortunate that we cannot get the figures but I totally understand the reasons behind that. There has been a significant increase in the number of applications and I am glad to see that. It is a positive and important development for the families across Meath West and nationally who are caring for older people or people with disabilities. I do not want to reduce any of them to numbers or money but we have to recognise - and I know the Minister does - that they are saving the State a huge amount of money by providing vital care for their loved ones. I really feel we are recognising that and we are going to deliver on our commitment in the programme for Government to completely abolish the means test. In the past couple of years we have made significant steps.  Will there be another national social media or media campaign to highlight to the busiest people in our society, these carers who are potentially holding down part-time work and fulfilling other responsibilities, the progress we have made here? I encourage the Minister to keep up the good work in this area. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  I thank the Deputy. That is a very good suggestion. When we complete our budget negotiations, it would be useful to remind people that a single person working as a carer can have an income of up to \u20ac1,000 per week and a couple, \u20ac2,000, and still be in receipt of a full carer\u2019s payment. In the context of the carer's support grant, I made the point earlier to Deputy Healy that we paid the annual grant as always on the first Thursday of June. It was a record amount this year. In the two or three months since June, an additional 5,000 payments have been made. I had a conversation with Deputy Hayes earlier about awareness-building generally around the accessibility of the social protection system. That is something I am going to be focused on in the winter and as soon as we have clarity around what the budget rates for 2027 will be.  In the context of changing means but also demographic and social changes and the implementation on the ground of more community-based care, there is a lot more interest in the carer\u2019s allowance. We will provide people with that necessary information. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Care Services"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_15","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Energy Prices","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_8","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_15","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aindrias Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_15.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aindrias Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aindrias Moynihan  The free electricity allowance remains fixed at \u20ac20 a year; exactly the same level since 2013, yet electricity prices have increased substantially in that period, reducing the real value of the support.  This is affecting not only older people but also those who have disabilities and those who are living alone. It is part of the programme for Government to review the household benefits package. What plans does the Minister have to increase the free electricity allowance in order that it better reflects the energy costs households are facing? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an Teachta as an gceist th\u00e1bhachtach seo. Mar is eol d\u00f3, the household benefits package is available to those who are aged 70 and over, regardless of means or household composition. It is also available as a supplementary allowance to those in receipt of about 15 different social protection payments. In total, 561,000 households benefit from the payment. We will invest \u20ac317 million this year on household benefit, of which about \u20ac231 million is allocated in respect of energy costs. It is an important support to households with energy costs.  When acknowledging the increase in energy costs, we must also acknowledge the volatility in those costs. For example, the price of oil has fluctuated from $60 a barrel in December 2025 to $138 a barrel last April. It fell back to $68 a barrel in July and is now back up to over $100 a barrel. I need to ensure that any measures I take in that context are targeted and timely and that they hit those who directly need them. Also, we have looked at targeted measures in recent budgets. Looking at the household benefits, we also have to look at the changes in fuel allowance payment, which now support over 463,000 households, over 100,000 more households in recent years.  The fuel allowance has been utilised to respond to spikes in energy costs. We have been able to extend the season. During the course of the period to which the Deputy refers, there were also the one-off payments. We are looking at the fuel allowance and the household benefits in the context of the forthcoming budget package. I also direct the attention of the House to the information campaign we launched last week at the ploughing concerning the eligibility for household benefits and, particularly for those over the age of 70, that it is not means tested. There has been huge interest in that campaign, both at our stand at the ploughing, but also through phone calls and engagements. What we have found in terms of the interest, is that the majority of those contacting us are on the payment. I encourage all Deputies to bring the attention of their constituents to that campaign through my Department's social media channels and through their own information. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aindrias Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aindrias Moynihan  I acknowledge the headway made on the broader household package. I welcome the fact that it is being examined. In particular, I draw the Minister's attention to the electricity allowance. When the allowance was set in 2013 it had the capacity to buy 1,526 units of electricity per year. Today, that same \u20ac420 payment covers no more than 450 units of electricity. That is more than a 70% reduction in the capacity of the allowance, which is impacting not only on pensioners but also on people with disabilities and people living alone - people who would have higher energy costs and more challenging household bills. The allowance is frozen, the electricity bills are not and older people, people with disabilities and people living alone are paying the price in the meantime. Do the officials recognise the electricity aspect of the allowance? Can there be a particular focus on it in any review? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  I assure the Deputy that we are very focused on all energy costs and on electricity in particular. That is why we have looked at the fuel allowance in particular for the older age cohort in terms of expanding eligibility for it. The allowable means for those aged 66 and over for the fuel allowance is now \u20ac534 per week for a single person and \u20ac1,068 for a couple. In particular, we have increased the disregard of savings and investments from \u20ac20,000 to \u20ac50,000 for those aged 66 and over to encourage more eligibility for fuel allowance, which is paid through the fuel allowance season, which for the information of the House, will begin next week, at a time of peak usage. Looking at the energy side of the household benefits, we have increased the resources relating to the fuel allowance. Also, during the period we are discussing, we had the single energy payments and other supports. I am very focused. The fuel allowance payment has been identified as targeted at those most vulnerable to energy shocks. Within the capacity of the fuel allowance, we have the ability to respond in a dynamic fashion, as we did this year, by extending it for four weeks at a time of unexpected high energy prices. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aindrias Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aindrias Moynihan  Making improvements to the overall burden of fuel costs is positive, and the fact that there will be different measures to do that. I want to draw the Minister's attention in particular to the electricity aspect of it because the allowance that was there provided people with the capacity to buy a certain amount of electricity and its value has eroded over time. I will briefly stay focused on the electricity aspect of it. Could that be increased? Could it be linked with a certain number of units of electricity such that people who are on the allowance would have the peace of mind of knowing that if there is an increase or a reduction in the price of electricity in future, they would be somewhat protected because the allowance would cover a certain number of units rather than being at a fixed euro value? That value has eroded significantly in the past ten years or more by 70%. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  I see why the Deputy wants to isolate the electricity part in the context of the household benefits package, but we cannot isolate it without looking at the other changes that have been made in the context of additional payments. I focused on the fuel announcement, particularly for the cohort that applied for household benefits - the change in income and in savings and investments, which will allow people to qualify for the fuel allowance. That is why we have 100,000 more people qualifying for the fuel allowance since 2020, never mind since 2013. In the context of the fuel allowance, people are not directed towards one form of energy. This is important to me and the Department. Through the fuel allowance, people have the flexibility to decide their own fuel and their own source of fuel. They are not directed towards any particular kind of fuel. As I said, we are constantly focused on how we can address energy challenges, and looking at the various challenges that exist. The expansion and flexibility of the fuel allowance programme is my best initiative and tool at a time of such volatility in the energy market. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Energy Prices"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_16","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Disability Issues","counts":{"speechCount":7,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_8","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_16","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Maxwell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_16.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mark Wall  Does the Minister plan to introduce a cost of disability payment in the forthcoming budget in light of the high costs faced by people with disabilities? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  The Government very much recognises the additional costs that disabled people face in their daily lives and we are committed to improving outcomes for disabled people by introducing permanent measures. This is why, as part of the programme for Government, we have included a commitment to introduce a permanent annual cost-of-disability payment. To that end, the national human rights strategy for disabled people was developed with significant input from disability groups and advocates. It included a commitment to a strategic focus network summit on the cost of disability. A public consultation process on how a cost-of-disability payment can best be delivered was launched on 20 February and ran for six weeks. It received over 1,100 submissions and culminated with a summit at the Aviva Stadium on 13 May. That summit was attended by the Taoiseach, the T\u00e1naiste, the Minister for children, the Minister of State with responsibility for disability, the Minister of State at the Department of Transport and me.  Arising from the lived experiences shared at the summit, I presented to the delivery and monitoring committee, which is chaired by the Taoiseach, in the middle of July. That meeting as also attended by a number of colleagues and representatives. We will publish the presentation as soon as possible. It is clear that a whole-of-government approach is important in addressing costs. As well as income support, we have to improve delivery and access to key services. One of the themes of the day was that transport is a major challenge.  With particular reference to the cost-of-disability payment, we are currently addressing that in the context of budget discussions. The consultation feedback is that disability groups predominantly want a cost-of-disability payment paid at a basic rate to all qualified recipients. There is a high demand for a graduated payment made as a supplement to some people based on the nature of disability and the costs arising.  However, the main demand was that disabled people and their advocates would be involved in codesign of any detailed scheme, and we are working towards a model in that regard. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mark Wall  I thank the Minister. I know he will share with us the amount he will give in the budget in the further reply. He will be aware of the additional costs for those people living with a disability. The Indecon report puts that cost at between \u20ac9,000 and \u20ac12,000 per year. Indeed, when we were at our Joint Oireachtas Committee on Autism, we saw a number of reports that the cost could be anything up to \u20ac30,000 per year. It is a substantial amount for anybody living with a disability. I welcome that the Minister has given a commitment that he is seriously considering a payment.  What the people who are living with disabilities and their advocates want to know is that, in budget 2027, the Government will finally recognise the urgent need for a cost-of-disability payment. I hope the Minister will confirm that all of his conversations with those in the Department of Finance and elsewhere will result in that payment, once and for all. The Disability Federation of Ireland is looking for \u20ac55 per week. Will the Minister confirm that that amount will be forthcoming? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  Nice try, Deputy. The budget negotiations are ongoing. It is very important, and I very much recognise that the estimates of costs that are there. The first payment will not address all of those. The key issue will be to introduce the permanent disability payment. It will grow, as many other social protection payments have done, but we will begin the work on how we deliver that payment through codesign, partnership and as far as we can with the disabled persons organisations. There are many differing views as to how the payment should be delivered. My first job is to get it introduced and start the process immediately in terms of delivery and how that works. We will revert to the groups and to the submissions as to how we can best do that in a shared way.  In the context of the figures the Deputy mentioned, such as from the Indecon report, we will not be able to get that level in the first year of the payment but I am very aware of the cost. Like many other social protection payments, this payment will increase in the years to come once we have it introduced and the budget for it ring-fenced. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mark Wall  I welcome that the Minister has confirmed that there will be a permanent payment. It is important that those who have disabilities can look forward to having something they not only need, but will also help them with the cost-of-living crisis.  I mentioned the heating supplement previously - there is a further question on it that we will not get to - and how there were only 700 people in receipt of it out of 170,000 or more people on the caring supplement. These are the issues that people are facing day in, day out. It is an issue I have asked so as to publicised it again.  On the cost-of-disability payment, we obviously welcome the fact there will be a permanent payment. More importantly, we welcome the continued dialogue with those advocacy groups. It is most important that they get a say in exactly how and when that payment will be delivered and the cost of it. The co-operation with advocacy groups is something we would all welcome in this House. Long may that continue with among Departments. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  On the heating supplement, we had a very productive meeting with the Irish Cancer Society yesterday on how we could work with it. I am certainly happy to work with other groups in promoting the heating supplement. As the Deputy said, there is a low uptake. We will engage on that. Generally, we have not finalised our budget at all yet. I know I have the support of the Taoiseach, the T\u00e1naiste and the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, as the three leaders of the Government, in introducing this. We will be negotiating very hard over the course of the next ten days in the context of getting it introduced and set up as a permanent payment rather than one that is set from budget to budget and depends on whatever are the priorities of the day.  The most important thing for me is to then get it delivered. There are many differing views. We received 1,000 submissions and there were many hundreds of different views as to how it should be delivered. That will be the discussion we will have with the various organisations. That codesign piece is very important. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Maxwell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy David Maxwell)  We have now reached the end of the allocated time, but the next Minister has not arrived, so I will allow Deputy Shane Moynihan to ask one question before the Minister arrives. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Disability Issues"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_17","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Social Welfare Payments","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_8","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_17","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Shane Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Shane-Moynihan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Shane-Moynihan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_17.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Shane Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Shane-Moynihan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Shane-Moynihan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Shane Moynihan  I appreciate this opportunity from the Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  We have just completed a public consultation on a second-tier of payment. It concluded on 12 June and we received submissions from representative bodies, advocacy organisations and service providers. We are currently finalising the analysis of that consultation.  On 8 September, the ESRI published its sixth annual report on poverty, income inequality and living standards. The report proposes a version of a second-tier child benefit as a possible mechanism. It was a very different proposal from the one considered by the ESRI in 2025. We are currently looking at that proposal and the differences. However, we acted in budget 2026 by introducing record child support payment increases for over-12s and under-12s and by improving the availability of the fuel allowance for those on the working family payment, which ensured that 50,000 families who previously would not have had access to the fuel allowance would receive it. As the Deputy knows, the working family payment is aligned to the number of children in a family.  We are considering the consultation. We are looking at the ESRI's revised proposals. As we discussed earlier, I will engage with colleagues from across the House through the joint Oireachtas committee on this during the course of the next budget. I can give the Deputy a guarantee that we will have a considerable child poverty package in the context of budget 2027. We are negotiating that as we speak. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Shane Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Shane-Moynihan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Shane-Moynihan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Shane Moynihan  I thank the Minister. I do not for a second doubt his personal commitment, or that of the Taoiseach, to dealing with child poverty. When I look at the taxable payment that has been recommended by the ESRI, it has a lot of things going for it: its effectiveness; it could take up to 20,000 children out of poverty; it could eventually subsume the child support payment; and it could tackle a lot more of the children who are in poverty at the moment. It is simpler to introduce and it is much easier to understand as well.  In the round, as the Minister carries out that engagement with colleagues across the House and, I am sure, the ESRI on those proposals, I encourage him to consider that as a possibility for doing what we all want, namely, to really make a dent in the journey of bringing down child poverty in this country. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  We will engage with the ESRI. It was a very different model from the one it proposed previously. We also want to engage with the ESRI on details on income thresholds and what means test it would have in mind. There is quite a lot of work to be done in this space. We want to incorporate the feedback from the consultation process and engage with Members of the Oireachtas on their views in this space. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Social Welfare Payments"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_18","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_18","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Maxwell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pa Daly  Are we waiting for the Minister to arrive? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Transport (Deputy Jerry Buttimer)  We are here. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pa Daly  I am reluctant to say too much while the Minister himself is not here but there are about 15 Deputies who have submitted questions. They are expecting a response from the Minister. I mean no disrespect to the dream team that has arrived. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  Did Kerry win the all-Ireland this year? Is the Deputy still cranky over that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pa Daly  No, I am a bit cranky with the Minister for not turning up. It is not the first time he has not shown up. In all fairness, the Ministers of State are more than capable of deputising. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Maxwell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy David Maxwell)  We will move on. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_19","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Public Transport","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_18","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_18","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_19","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Canney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_19.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pa Daly  Further to previous parliamentary questions, I want to ask the Minister about the child fares that will be reduced in the upcoming budget. I also ask about the price hikes that have recently been announced. In particular, does the Minister of State have any response to the response of the NTA at the transport committee that these price hikes will inevitably lead to fewer people using public transport? We are in a cost-of-living crisis and I believe it is the wrong approach for the Government to take to allow the increases of 15%. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Canney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Transport (Deputy Se\u00e1n Canney)  I thank the Deputy for the question. As he is aware, the NTA in its capacity as fare regulator, recently announced the revised national fare structure to take effect from January 2027.  While adult fares will increase by an average of 15%, child fares are being reduced in several areas nationally. This represents the first broad adjustment to fares since 2018 and follows a period in which operating costs have risen sharply. In the Dublin commuter zone, in regional cities, in participating towns, and on TFI Local Link services, a new reduced child rate will apply, set at 33% of the equivalent adult fare rate. The determination will also continue to protect existing Government-supported fare initiatives, including the free travel scheme; free travel for children under nine years of age; and free companion travel arrangements for people over the age of 70. The NTA\u2019s assessment is that, even with these changes, fares will remain approximately 8% lower in real terms than they were eight years ago. The adjustments to fares are required to help offset the cost increases in recent years. They are also required to improve fare revenue recovery and ensure the sustainability of the public service obligation, PSO, funding.  We recognise that the NTA applies detailed statistical analysis of fare elasticity to assess the impact of fare increases on passenger demand and overall public transport usage. Notwithstanding these considerations, steady passenger growth is expected to continue in 2027, supported by the ongoing expansion and enhancement of services, which are anticipated to attract additional users and further strengthen public transport demand. The NTA will continue to monitor patronage trends closely as the new fare structure is implemented.  Safeguarding the long-term financial sustainability while being responsive to passenger needs remains a central commitment under the programme for Government. Achieving this requires a careful balance between delivering high-quality reliable services and ensuring the network is adequately funded. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pa Daly  I thank the Minister of State for the response. Will he please expand on his comment that child fares in several areas will be addressed? We in Sinn F\u00e9in believe that fares should be abolished completely for anybody up to 18 years of age. What exact areas does he mean?  The Minister of State also mentioned that, due to inflation, fares were 8% lower in real terms but what he failed to say was that, between 2008 or 2009 and 2016, there was an incremental increase in fares.  Will he give us a guarantee that there will be improved and better services as a result of these fare increases? I do not believe there will be. The fare increases clearly should not go ahead in a cost-of-living crisis. They should be put off for another time. The Government should be investing more in it. There has been a huge decrease in the amount of new services that have been implemented this year compared to last year. The Government did not even have a transport plan published for this year until around this time last year. It shows a lack of enthusiasm, a lack of initiative, and a lack of priority for public transport. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Canney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Se\u00e1n Canney  I will give the Deputy a few examples of the reduction in the new fares for children. In regional cities like Galway, Cork, Limerick and Waterford, the new reduced fare is 33% of the equivalent fare. In town services like those in Athlone, Balbriggan, Clonmel, Drogheda, Dundalk and Kilkenny, child fares are cut to 50 cent. These are facts. What I said about fares being 8% lower than what they were eight years ago is also a fact.  The Deputy asked about improving services. This year, we have spent \u20ac941 million in delivering PSO services. If we look at the increased number of people using public transport, that is because we have been increasing the offer in terms of public transport. Looking at what we will be doing over the next number of years with BusConnects, the all-island rail review extending train services, putting in passing loops to create more frequency, and looking at train stations to be able to take that capacity, we have a very good news story here in public transport and what we are doing with it. What we need to do is continue that trajectory, which we will do. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pa Daly  There are very few new services. Look at the number of new services that were delivered this year in BusConnects. It is way below what is acceptable and the progress that had been made up to that. The clock has been turned back.  I am glad the Minister of State mentioned town bus services because I want to bring up the issue of Tralee town bus services. In a recent committee meeting, the NTA said it was going to \"look at\" the possibility of a town bus service for Tralee, which is one of the largest towns in the country. It was going to \"look at\" it next year and the year after, so it is guaranteed that there will be no town bus service. I wonder whether this Government has something against the town of Tralee. In the living city initiative, which has been announced for Athlone, Drogheda, Dundalk, Letterkenny and Sligo - all towns of a more or less similar size - Tralee has been completely excluded from the regeneration possibilities that are opened up by it. To hear that, while the Culloty Tralee People's Bus Service has done great work for many years - it is important to work in conjunction with the Culloty family - the Government and the NTA have no interest in putting a new town bus service into the town of Tralee is deeply worrying. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Canney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Se\u00e1n Canney  Tralee is just one town and the NTA is looking at it. Regarding public transport, 363.6 million passenger journeys were carried out in 2025. It was a record. That was because services were being increased all over the place. Be it rail, bus or Local Link, all of those services are being expanded. However, if we are going to have a sustainable public transport system going forward, we also have to have what I would call a fair revenue, which is a vital component in that funding model. Some \u20ac941 million in Exchequer funding has been put into the PSO this year to keep it going. We need to be able to expand the services more. What the Deputy desires for Tralee can and will happen but it will take money to do that, and we need to have a proper PSO to fund it. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Public Transport"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_20","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Departmental Budgets","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_18","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_18","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_20","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_20.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  I thank Deputy Farrelly for the question. The application of the \u20ac18 million expenditure levy is currently forming part of the 2027 Estimates negotiations process under way with our colleagues in the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation. It is fair to say that it will be challenging to absorb this levy into our current expenditure budget for 2027. The Deputy has been a long-time advocate of increasing services of his area of Kildare. As he knows, the PSO expenditure accounts for around 70% of the current Vote, as the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, has just said. What that means for the House is that reforms in motor tax, modernisations listed in the national vehicle and driver file and the road traffic Bill 2026 will generate some savings. Once the relevant provisions of the Bill are enacted, they will remove the requirement to display a paper motor tax disc, therefore reducing the Department\u2019s administrative costs by approximately \u20ac8 million per annum.  It is important to say to the House that priority will be given to protecting the PSO funding as part of our budget 2027 negotiations to advance the progress that we have achieved in recent years and to ensure that we deliver a public transport system that is not just sustainable, but also dependable, accessible and affordable.  In response to Deputy Daly, we are ambitious. We want to see services expanded and we want to work with people in all parts of the country and with all colleagues across the House to ensure we deliver for people in terms of accessible public transport. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  I thank the Minister of State for that reply. It is a bit of a leap to ask us to accept that it is still part of the negotiations. The Minister of State definitely knows by now where that \u20ac18 million shortfall is going to be made up and it is not part of the budgetary process. He could tell us. I have asked him to detail to us what that is going to look like for 2027. He is choosing not, and that is unfortunate. We will see it come out in a couple of weeks and that is fine, but this was an opportunity to outline it. Otherwise, what we are going to see are fare hikes - they are going to be part of that - and a lack of investment in services. The Minister of State is talking to us about ambition, and I accept what he says, but that ambition last year was zero. There were no new services, certainly when it came to buses.  We have an opportunity here to keep the fares as they were and actually look to further reduce them, not increase them. All I can assume is that the likes of the fare increases will go directly towards this \u20ac18 million bill that the Department of public expenditure is putting on Departments. Unless the Minister of State can tell me otherwise, what is looking likely for next year is a continued lack of investment in services and further fare increases, which is what the NTA has said, in order to meet what is ultimately other Departments' misexpenditure. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  I am not going to have that particular row with the Deputy on the floor of House, but I want to make it quite to clear to him that the budgetary negotiations are ongoing. They have not concluded. The budget is on 6 October. We are very much committed to enhancing services, and an unprecedented \u20ac940 million allocation for PSO services in the budget of 2026, which was a 43% uplift, is by anyone's standard \"ambition\". That is called wanting to see an expansion of the services.  It is a challenging period in public transport. We are seeing an increase in passenger numbers. All of us who live in urban areas see the increase in people using it. I will give the Deputy the example of the commuter rail project in my city of Cork. It is a savage success story. More people are using it. The Deputy's colleague, Deputy Quaide in Midleton, will tell him that it is an example. Deputy Kenny in Mallow will tell him that Mallow is full. Midleton is full, as is Cobh. Deputy O'Shea is in that area as well. It is a huge success, and that shows the breadth of our ambition, but I will come back to the Deputy further in the supplementary reply. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aidan Farrelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Aidan-Farrelly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aidan Farrelly  Those policies are working because the fare points are right. We know that increased fares reduce passenger numbers. The Government has made a decision in the last couple of weeks that it knows will be tantamount to a reduced level of service demand at a time when we have climate and affordability crises and at a time when the Department is not rolling out new services. They are facts. Absolutely, there is \u20ac900-odd million being allocated and I commend the Department for that, but ultimately it has been levied with a bill by the Department of public expenditure. To me, it is being bullied by that Department into having to pay for the Department of education's overspend.  What I am asking the Minister of State for is not a conversation about a decision that the Government is going to make in the budget. I am asking him to tell us what planning has happened as to where that \u20ac18 million will come from. The Department has that decision made already. I have to expect that, given the months the Department has had to plan this - this has been going around an awful long time - the Minister of State knows where this expenditure is going to come from. What I am looking for is detail to ensure that no public transport services suffer, and no further public transport fare increases happen, because of it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  I am smiling because, as the Deputy knows quite well, the budget is on 6 October. Our Department's negotiations with the Department of public expenditure have not concluded. For me, the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, and the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, our priority is very much about service expansion and the delivery of accessible and reliable services to give travelling members of the public certainty.  I want to make the point to the Deputy that we need to have a conversation about how, in the broader thrust of public transport, service expansion is not just about funding. It is also about the availability of mechanics and drivers, as well as being about how we can deliver new services. As the Minister of State for rural transport, I am acutely aware of this. Deputy Daly mentioned Tralee in the context of the new delivery of town services. We will work to deliver new services. With our colleagues in the Department of public expenditure, we will arrive at a budgetary position that will ensure that the PSO gives that uplift for new services. I look forward to working with Deputy Farrelly for the people of Kildare and delivering services for them.  The Deputy's question is a fair point in the context of people's expectations, but \u20ac940 million is a significant uplift in public transport funding. I hope that we can deliver more. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Departmental Budgets"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_21","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Public Transport","counts":{"speechCount":8,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_18","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_18","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_21","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louis O'Hara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Canney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_21.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louis O'Hara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Louis O'Hara  I have raised overcrowding on early morning trains into Galway with the Minister of State a number of times. It has been going on for years on all services, particularly on that train that arrives into Galway at 8.10 a.m. It is at a crisis point now. People are being put in serious danger. I have had a lot of people in touch with me, and I am sure the Minister of State has as well. What is going to be done about this in the short term? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Canney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Transport (Deputy Se\u00e1n Canney)  I thank the Deputy. To take forward the implementation of the all-island strategic rail review, my Department published the rail projects prioritisation strategy in December 2025. In the short term, the strategy specifies a number of early interventions, including new passing loops and platforms to boost the rail network\u2019s resilience and capacity. These investments are funded to be fully delivered by 2030 under the national development plan. The strategy also identifies major projects to be delivered in the long term, including the reinstatement of the western rail corridor between Claremorris and Athenry, which I am pleased to say is also funded to commence construction under the national development plan.  To cater for the future demand envisioned under the rail review, we are progressing rail station upgrades across the network, including at Ceannt Station, where improvement works have already increased the number of platforms from two to five. We are also continuing work at Oranmore Station, which will provide an additional platform and a passing loop, increasing capacity on the Galway to Athenry line.  Regarding the Deputy\u2019s query on enhancing capacity on the network, larnr\u00f3d Eireann\u2019s rolling stock is currently fully deployed on services across the network. Notwithstanding this, I am pleased to note that, as part of the DART+ programme, three orders delivering a total of 285 new carriages have been placed so far. When the first and second orders start entering service next year, this will allow for the redeployment of existing intercity and commuter trains to other parts of the rail network experiencing capacity issues. The reason we have the capacity issue is because when we built the line from Athenry to Ennis, we had 132,000 passenger journeys per annum. Last year, we had 750,000 passenger journeys. That is an enormous increase, and it is the fastest growing line now, which is what justifies doing all this other investment. We will continue to do that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louis O'Hara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Louis O'Hara  I raised this with the NTA last week and was told that all available carriages were in use at peak times, but I have a number of questions in relation to this and would appreciate clear answers to them for the people who have to travel on these overcrowded services daily. Why has there been no forward planning and how have we ended up in a situation where we do not have additional rail carriages? When are we going to have additional carriages on the trains going into Galway? I want a clear timeline on this because the Minister of State mentioned that new electric carriages were going to be arriving into Dublin, which would free up existing stock to go out to the regional routes. Is that going to happen in quarter 2 of 2027? Do we have a clear timeline on when that will happen? Has there been engagement will rail operators and departments in other jurisdictions about the possibility of securing stock on a short-term basis to address these capacity issues while we wait for the new stock?  Why has the Government not funded the promised new Athenry bus service? We have been waiting for that for two years. That will take significant pressure off the existing rail services into the city.  These are the questions that I am getting of commuters, and I would appreciate clear answers to them because this is not a sustainable situation and the Government cannot continue to sit on its hands. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Canney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Se\u00e1n Canney  I want to reiterate that the Government is not sitting on plans. It is very active at the moment, and the Deputy knows that as well. He also well knows that we are preparing to open the line between Athenry and Claremorris, which is something he supports, and we need to get on with that.  Next year, 2027, is when we will have additional carriages becoming available. The NTA is working with Irish Rail and the latter has been looking at other places across the world but it cannot just get carriages from some other place because the railway lines themselves may be of different configuration. It is not like getting a car from some place and putting it on the line. There is a lot more to it than that and the carriages have to be compatible with what is there at the moment. In fairness, what we have seen here, and it is something that we have to acknowledge, is the biggest growth in public transport in the west of Ireland. We have gone from 132,000 to 750,000 passenger journeys per annum on that line, making it the fastest-growing line. I agree that there is a shortage of carriages on it. We need to put more into it and I am working to make sure it happens next year. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louis O'Hara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Louis O'Hara  I just cannot accept the response that nothing is going to be done here in the short term. We are told we have to wait for carriages, with very vague assurances as to when they are going to become available. I have been contacted in relation to people becoming unwell. One woman described getting on the train this week and said that people were pushing and shoving so much that she thought someone could go down the gap between the train and platform. This is the situation on public transport every morning into Galway city.  Can the Minister of State give us a clear timeline as to when the rail services going in and out of Galway specifically, and particularly that one arriving at 8.10 a.m., will have additional carriages? Can we get a clear time on that? How we have ended up in this situation where we do not have additional rail carriages? I appreciate it takes time and we cannot just get them into service within a very short period but how has there not been forward planning such that we are left in this situation? I also want to ask about the Athenry bus service. That has been promised for two years and would make a really significant difference in terms of taking pressure off these services. Why has that not been funded? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Canney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Se\u00e1n Canney  Just to reiterate, I did say that there will be additional carriages available in 2027. That is the first thing I said to the Deputy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louis O'Hara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Louis O'Hara  For Galway? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Canney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Se\u00e1n Canney  Yes, for Galway. The second question the Deputy asked was why this has arisen. It has arisen because when one orders new carriages it takes about five years to get them manufactured and delivered to one's specification. That is the timeline. The carriages were ordered four or five years ago and they will be with us next year. I do accept that there has been an underfunding of our service. It has grown over the last five to ten years and that particular line has grown substantially. We need to double-track that line from Athenry into Galway and that is also in the strategy that we have in place. What we need to do first is make sure we can put in the passing loops to get more frequency in and out with the trains we have. I fought hard to make sure that we would retain that early morning train service into Galway, which we have succeeded in doing. As for the bus service, we are working to get that in place as well but we have to make sure that whatever we put in is sustainable. There was a bus service there previously that was not sustainable. That is something we have to be very careful of, that we are not just doing things for the sake of doing them and finding that they are not sustainable. I know that the NTA and Bus \u00c9ireann are looking at that at the moment. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Public Transport"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_22","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Public Transport","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_18","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_18","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_22","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ciar\u00e1n Ahern","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_22.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ciar\u00e1n Ahern","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ciar\u00e1n Ahern  This is a simple one for the Minister of State. I am glad to hear from Deputy Buttimer that the budget negotiations with the Department of public expenditure are ongoing because my question is whether the Minister will provide the \u20ac70 million in funding that the NTA says is required to avoid the increase in public transport fares. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  I thank Deputy Ahern for his question. As the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, and I have said, the recently announced change in fares were the first revision in eight years. The change is aimed at supporting not just the continued expansion but also the improvement of public transport, while maintaining affordability. Any overall increase in revenue generated will go straight back into investment in public transport services, delivering better connectivity, capacity and reliability for passengers and commuters. This investment will also form part of the Department's engagements with the Department of public expenditure as part of the annual Estimates process, which has not yet concluded, for next year.  On an overall basis, fare revenue only covers approximately 38% of the cost of operating the PSO services nationally, with the remaining costs funded by the Exchequer. It is, therefore, imperative that there is a rebalancing of the critical equation in how we fund PSO public transport nationally, ensuring that fare revenue continues to make a sustainable contribution alongside significant levels of subsidy, while maintaining the affordability and accessibility of public transport. I would also highlight that this level of fare recovery is largely consistent with European averages, with our actual fares set at much lower rates. I appreciate the concerns expressed by people about the recent fare increase and many of them have contacted me. However, in line with international best practice and to bolster the State\u2019s capacity to invest in service expansion, network improvements, and operational resilience to encourage continuous passenger growth, it is essential we prioritise this reinvestment of fare revenue, ensuring that we can maintain a well-funded, reliable system and deliver greater long-term benefit rather than reducing fares to unsustainable levels. It is fair to say that achieving this requires a careful balance between delivering high-quality, reliable services and ensuring the network is adequately resourced to meet growing demand. We saw a record 363.5 million journeys undertaken just last year. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ciar\u00e1n Ahern","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ciar\u00e1n Ahern  I thank the Minister of State. Often when I ask a question of the Minister for Transport, I am fobbed off to the NTA because I am asking about operational matters but this is a funding matter. It is a hugely disappointing decision from Government and a baffling decision in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis and a climate crisis. The current policy has been working for the Government. It is a really popular policy with the public, it is politically popular and I am baffled as to why the Government is doing this when we know that the low-fares policy is incentivising people to use our public transport. It is just so disappointing and hard to understand. We can support, rightfully, one cohort of transport users, namely people who drive and are reliant on their cars and of course, we should be supporting them with reductions on VAT and excise, but at the same time, we cannot be pitching public transport users against these other users of transport. We have to be supporting everyone, which is why this decision is so disappointing. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  The Deputy and I speak the same language. It has been a success story and to keep it that way, there has to be an honest conversation around fare structures. To be fair, we must consider the volume of people using public transport. I know that some Deputies will dismiss the \u20ac940 million but that is a significant investment by Government in public transport. I would make the point that we have maintained a fare freeze for eight years, along with targeted affordability measures of which we are all aware. Those measures compare favourably internationally. I take the point that there are people who are unhappy and who are being affected. They have communicated with all of us and I have met them but it is important to make the point that we have implemented one of the most significant fare reforms in recent decades through the introduction of the 90-minute fare and substantial discounts for young people and students through the young adult card. Our commitment, as a Department and as Ministers, is to ensure that we have a reliable and accessible public transport system. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ciar\u00e1n Ahern","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ciar\u00e1n Ahern  I certainly will not dismiss the very significant investment in public transport which is really welcome. The problem with the PSO is that it is not keeping pace with the volume of users now and the demands. The Minister of State talked about 38% of the costs of the PSO being covered by fares but public transport pays for itself in other ways through reduced congestion, safer roads and lower carbon emissions. The idea that fares need to cover costs is not entirely correct. Talking about international comparators and Ireland being relatively lower or higher compared to elsewhere does not really butter any parsnips for people who are impacted by these fare increases. AML\u00c9, the association of student unions in Ireland, has come out in recent days looking for free fares for everyone under 25. If we are going to be increasing fares elsewhere, I would love to see us focusing on a group like that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  The significant point is that our PSO programme funds public transport services, both bus and rail, and as we know, it is composed of Exchequer funding and fares. The Deputy is right and the priority for us, working with the NTA, is to deliver on BusConnects so that it takes people out of their cars and onto the bus network. I have seen it in my own city of Cork.  In the past couple of weeks, with colleges and schools back open, there has been an increased volume of traffic on our roads. That emphasises the importance of BusConnects.  The Deputy will agree that we must continue to prioritise public transport, which is what the Government is doing, and the PSO element of that is very important. Discounts for young adults and students are critically important. For my Department, this is an important part of our budget negotiations. As Minister of State with responsibility for rural transport, I am acutely aware of the need to enhance the offering across the whole country. Deputy O'Shea, who is in the Chair, has spoken to me about different bus services in his area, Deputy Pa Daly referenced the town bus in Tralee, and other Members will be speaking this morning about other bus services. We are committed to investing but there is a need for honest conversations. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Public Transport"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_23","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Road Projects","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_18","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_18","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_23","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Stanley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Canney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_23.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Stanley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Brian Stanley  I am interested in the proportion of funding given for active travel versus the proportion given for rural and local roads. I am in favour of funding active travel but the specifications being given to councils are completely off the wall and are making it more expensive to deliver infrastructure projects of short duration. I have raised this issue previously and the officials have come back with standard answers. This matter needs to be looked at by the Minister or a Minister of State. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Canney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Se\u00e1n Canney  I thank the Deputy for his question, which concerns an issue he has been raising on an ongoing basis.  In accordance with section 13 of the Roads Act 1993, as amended, the improvement and maintenance of regional and local roads is the statutory responsibility of each local authority. Work on such roads is funded from councils' own resources, supplemented by State road grants. For 2026, \u20ac718 million was allocated through the regional and local roads grant programme for the improvement and maintenance of regional and local roads, with approximately 90% of the funding allocated to road maintenance and renewal. This facilitated an increased funding allocation of \u20ac26 million this year for road protection and renewal works. That represents an increase of over 25% in funding compared with 2021.  Under the 2026 regional and local roads grant programme, Laois County Council was allocated more than \u20ac15 million for the maintenance and improvement of its regional and local roads, which is an increase of nearly \u20ac1 million compared with 2025. That funding will support the local authority in carrying out an extensive 2026 programme of maintenance and restoration. In addition, it will support various climate adaptation projects, bridge rehabilitation schemes and safety improvement works.  Within the budget available for the maintenance of regional and local roads, the objective is to allocate funding to eligible local authorities on as equitable a basis as possible, taking the length of the road network into account. The main focus of the grants continues to be the protection and renewal of roads.  In addition to keeping the regional and local roads network in good repair, targeted improvements are also prioritised. All projects put forward must comply with the requirements of the infrastructure guidelines and my Department's appraisal framework. Each project is assessed on a case-by-case basis, keeping available resources in mind. The 2026 allocation to Laois County Council includes funding of \u20ac500,000 for specific improvement grant schemes. Furthermore, on 1 July, I announced additional funding of \u20ac40 million to address the damage to roads as a result of Storm Chandra. The funding to Laois County Council under this additional package was \u20ac1 million. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Stanley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Brian Stanley  I thank the Minister of State for his reply. He is correct regarding the allocation to the council but my point is that \u20ac3.5 million was given for active travel. I do not have a problem with that allocation; the problem is how it is being spent. He mentioned the departmental guidelines, which is where the issue arises. The specifications and stipulations set out in those guidelines are completely off the wall.  To give one example, I was calling for action from the council on Triogue Way 25 or 26 years ago. One section of footpath was put in there across Millview car park. It has worked out to be the most expensive car park in the world because of those specifications. The footpath part alone, which is 74 m in length, cost \u20ac105,000. Other work was done as well, with the whole project coming in at more than \u20ac400,000. That is crazy money. The amount of concrete that went in underneath it would support a section of motorway. An articulated truck could be driven down it. It is over 13 ft wide in places. That is absolutely ridiculous. It is happening because the Department is telling the council it must be done a certain way. Concrete was being poured for months, with a private contractor crew working on it for four months. Meanwhile, overseers and engineers cannot fund even drainage works or basic repairs to rural roads. That needs to be looked at again. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Canney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Se\u00e1n Canney  I understand the Deputy's frustration. I am sure he will agree that the funding allocation for Laois County Council for local and regional roads is good enough. His frustration seems to be in relation to the \u20ac3.5 million allocated to active travel projects. He is of the view that the works are perhaps being over-specified and the standards are too strict. I will take his points back to the Department. When doing this kind of work, we must ensure public money is spent in such a way that we deliver the best outcomes and get as much bang for our buck as possible. I will communicate the Deputy's important feedback to the Department. I do not think anybody is engaged in over-designing. There might be reasons that it looks that way, such as underground structures or whatever. I cannot comment on that. It is just a matter of ensuring we get value for whatever public money is spent. The local authorities want to do that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Stanley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Brian Stanley  On the overall funding, if the Minister of State has more millions of euro, he should send them down to Laois, because they are needed. The cost of repairing roads has been increasing by 15% per annum. I do not have a problem with the \u20ac3.5 million for active travel; if he has another \u20ac3.5 million, I would welcome it. The problem is the specifications and what we are getting for the money. That is the point I am making.  Does a footpath really need to be 13 ft wide? Ten-wheeler wagons were drawing in concrete at Triogue Way. I know all this because I park in the car park beside it and I saw what was going on every day. The amount of concrete that has gone into it would support a section of motorway, never mind a footpath and cycleway. The good footpath that was already there had to be ripped out because of the Department's specifications. A row of bollards could have been put alongside it in the car park, a perfectly good cycleway could have been installed and the car park resurfaced. Everything would have been fine and dandy.  What is being done is absolutely ridiculous. We need a sense of proportion and we need to be practical. The Minister of State is a practical kind of person. He must speak to officials in the Department about this. We need to get bang for our buck. That is the point I am making. Allowing rural roads to deteriorate to the point they need substantial works will mean spending more money in the longer term. An area office is needed to get work done. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Canney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Se\u00e1n Canney  I reiterate that any funding we allocate should be spent wisely and in such a way that we get as much out of it as possible for the benefit of the taxpayer. I do not believe anybody is wasting money. It may be that the specifications and design standards need to be looked at, which is something I will take back to the Department. We must get as much done as we can with the money we have. As the Deputy rightly said, costs are increasing. We must be more prudent and agile in how we spend it. I will convey his comments to the officials. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Road Projects"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_24","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Bus Services","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_18","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_18","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_24","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Currie","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_24.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Currie","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Emer Currie  I want to make a simple, evidence-based case for retaining an all-day direct bus service from Littlepace to Dublin city centre. Under BusConnects, the 70 bus service, which is one of the most popular routes in Dublin West, will be split in two, with a direct service at peak times only and a local service during the day to the Blanchardstown Centre. Having surveyed 1,300 homes in three weeks, I got 978 responses, 98% of which wanted the daytime direct service retained. Will the NTA look again at this proposal? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  I thank the Deputy for raising this important matter, for her work on the survey she mentioned and for engaging with such large numbers of people. As she said, this is an important service.  The changes proposed for the 70 bus route are part of the wider BusConnects Dublin network redesign. One of the core principles of that work is to provide a more frequent, reliable and better-connected public transport network across the greater Dublin area. The redesign seeks to provide improved service levels and reduced waiting times for all passengers throughout the day.  Under the proposed network, the existing 70 service will be replaced, as the Deputy has said, by two new routes, namely, L64 and P64. The peak-time P64 service will continue to provide direct links between Dunboyne and Dublin city centre. I am told that the L64 will operate between Dunboyne and the Blanchardstown Centre and is currently projected to run every 15 minutes. Both routes will also connect with Dunboyne rail station, providing access to rail services into the city. For journeys to the city centre outside peak periods, passengers can travel to the Blanchardstown Centre using the L64 route and transfer to one of four B spine services, which are expected to operate every four minutes.  The NTA will provide more detailed timetables closer to implementation, taking into account demand levels, operational requirements and available funding. Based on current assessments, approximately five to six direct peak-time services to and from the city centre are envisaged. These changes will also be supported by the 90-minute Leap fare, ensuring that passengers making multi-modal journeys do not incur any additional costs.\u00a0 Furthermore, the planned development of the Blanchardstown to city centre core bus corridor will also reduce journey times and improve interchange facilities.  The benefits of these new services include the introduction of significantly better all-day frequency, not just during peak commuting hours, and better network connectivity options within the 90-minute Leap fare. I will speak with the Deputy and bring her information from the survey back to the NTA. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Currie","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Emer Currie  I thank the Minister of State for that reply. The people of Littlepace know the plans inside out. Some things can look good on paper but are counter-intuitive. Nothing annoys people more than when the NTA, supported by the Government, focuses on fixing something that does not need to be fixed and decides to remove something that is working for them and gets them to work, college or appointments on time during the day.  The Minister of State will recall that I previously highlighted the problems we were having in Dublin West, where popular commuter bus services required more capacity but did not receive adequate investment. He knows that I did a lot of work on the figures behind that to make the argument evidence-based. The 70 was one of those routes. The Minister of State, Deputy Buttimer, the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, and the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, ensured that more investment came to that service.  The people who responded to my survey were overwhelmingly regular users. They said that the service is now reliable. Some 93.5% of them said that the service is now reliable. This change seems illogical. We are giving residents something they did not ask for. They just want the 70 to work well. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  I thank the Deputy and appreciate where she is coming from. I hear the frustration. I appreciate the views of neighbours. As a public representative like the Deputy, I fully understand that sometimes what is proposed does not align with reality. It is important that I, having taken the question this morning, articulate and communicate the Deputy's views and those of residents back to the NTA. I am not obfuscating responsibility but, as the Deputy knows, the NTA is charged with the project. As a Minister and Ministers of State, we do not have any direct, day-to-day engagement. I will sit down with the Deputy to look at the situation and will ask the NTA to do so. If it is not broken, why fix it? We need to ensure that our overarching policy is about an enhanced bus experience. It is about ensuring that bus corridors are brought in, we have a continuous bus lane and improve active travel facilities.  The points made by the Deputy are hard to go against. The travelling public who use the service in a place understand. They use it every day. I will certainly reflect with the Deputy and take her views back to the NTA. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Currie","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Emer Currie  I thank the Minister of State. I appreciate it. He will know, having been a public representative for decades, that when you do a survey and get that kind of response, you have to listen to it. Out of 978 people surveyed over a three-week period, only 12 said they would have no issue with having to change buses at the Blanchardstown Centre. Some 99.1% of them described the direct service as either \"extremely important\" or \"very important\" to them. Worryingly, 60% of people said that if this change makes their journey longer or less reliable, they are more likely to drive instead. The biggest issue that they identified was increased journey time. Some 80% of people said that was the issue.  I appreciate that the Minister of State will bring this issue to the NTA. I ask the NTA to meet the community. I have sent it this survey. The results speak for themselves. It is important that the NTA shows it is willing to engage with communities about issues that impact them. Nearly 1,000 people in a three-week period responded to my survey when I only dropped it to 1,300 homes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  All of us, no matter where we are from, want Bus Connects to succeed. At its core, it is about bringing new service and providing better all-day frequency and more reliability. Every day, we get complaints about the quality of a bus service, whether in Cork city or Dublin. We are not immune. As a Minister and Ministers of State, we are determined to ensure that we can deliver that.  It disappoints me, as a Minister of State and a public representative, that the NTA would not meet residents. Ultimately, the NTA is the solution-maker for any issue. It will be putting the network in place. It has a duty to meet residents, community groups and whoever else in Littlepace, in this case, to sort out the matter, work, listen and have that engagement. Public engagement allows them to be informed. It allows us all to have a better outcome in the end, we hope. I commit to sitting down with the Deputy and articulating with her on behalf of the people she represents. All of us must work together to have a better bus system that will benefit the travelling public who want to use the service.  If I were using a bus, which I do occasionally, and the journey became longer, I would ask whether I wanted to use it. The connectivity piece is important. The success of Local Link has been that A to B connectivity for people. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Bus Services"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_25","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_25","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Questions Nos. 124 and 125 taken with Written Answers. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_26","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Rail Accidents","counts":{"speechCount":8,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_25","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_25","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_26","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Canney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_26.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Lawless  On the evening of 3 September, Eoin Doyle, a 12-year-old boy, lost his life when the car he was travelling in was struck by a train in Kiltybo, just outside Ballyhaunis. It is incredibly sad and a devastating loss of life. His family and, indeed, the entire community are still in mourning and grief. I spoke to the family and their wish is that no family in the future will ever go through such a loss and such grief. My question to the Minister of State is what lessons will be learned. How many tragedies have there been on the rail network? How many collisions have there been? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Canney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Se\u00e1n Canney  Before I commence answering the question, I too extend my sympathy to the bereaved family of the boy and to the community. It is an appalling incident or collision and the consequences are life-changing. On the loss of the young boy, I say to the family, \"May he rest in peace.\" "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  Amen. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Canney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Se\u00e1n Canney  I thank the Deputy for the question. Rail safety is an important priority for me and my Department. The total number of collisions involving heavy rail in Ireland between 2016 and 2025 amounts to 842 according to the 2025 annual report of the Commission for Railway Regulation, CRR, which was published in June. \u00a0This figure covers a variety of collisions, with the vast majority due to train collisions with large animals on the line or other obstacles on the line.  Train collisions with other vehicles are rare. In 2025, there was one train collision with a motor vehicle. No train-on-train collisions on active rail lines have occurred in the previous ten years. I can provide the Deputy with a table showing a breakdown of the year-on-year collisions and the category of these collisions based on the CRR report.  The CRR is Ireland's independent railway safety regulator and has been a central part of the State's railway safety framework since its establishment under the Railway Safety Act 2005.  Its core mission is to promote, oversee and enforce safety across the rail sector, ensuring that railway operators maintain the highest standards of safety for passengers, workers and the wider public. Through inspections, audits, authorisations, compliance monitoring and enforcement activities, the CRR works to ensure operators meet both national and European safety requirements. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Lawless  Eoin was a wonderful young boy. He was a very talented Gaelic footballer, soccer player and golfer. He even won an athletics event in the weeks before his passing. He had the opportunity to meet the Mayo team with the Sam Maguire Cup as well. Like his parents, grandparents and wider family, he was very involved in the local community.  I am aware of the crossing where the incident took place. It is extremely rudimentary in nature. Visibility there is poor. Indeed, there was strong mist on the evening as well. The crossing, like many others, is a death trap. Many motorists are completely unaware of such a significant hazard that lies ahead. Since the incident, I have been contacted by many people across County Mayo who have outlined to me the near misses they also had. The technology is available. We need to replace those user-operated crossings with automated barriers and significant warning systems and sirens. The technology is there. It is widely available and is cheap. In fact, it is used across every apartment complex in Dublin and in other cities and car parks across the country. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Canney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Se\u00e1n Canney  I have given some data on this, and there is more data in the reply, which I will not read out. It is there for the Deputy to read. It is important that I do not comment on a matter that is under investigation. We have to respect the investigations that are ongoing. A preliminary examination by the rail accident investigation unit, which is the independent national investigation body into the accident that occurred at level crossing XM 160, is ongoing. Decisions made by that investigation unit will be based on the outcome of that examination.  The CRR, the independent national safety authority, is also carrying out its initial assessment of the circumstances surrounding the accident. Decisions made by the commission will be based on the outcome of that assessment. As the Deputy will be aware, I have responsibility for policy and overall funding of public transport. The operation, maintenance and renewal of the rail network and level crossings on the network, including the level crossing referred to, is a matter for Irish Rail in the first instance. I will go back to the basic point that we cannot comment until the investigations are complete. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Lawless  I appreciate that there is a review under way, how sensitive this topic is and the Minister of State's sincerity. I have read previous reports in relation to other incidents. I am calling for us all to work constructively together. This is above politics. We need to replace user-operated gates with automated gates. This is happening in every car park and apartment complex across this country. The technology is there. It is widely available and it is cheap. The truth is that many of these crossings are on local roads that have high volumes. I ask that lessons be learnt from this incident and that actions be taken in order that no family has to experience a similar loss and grief that comes with it ever again. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Canney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Se\u00e1n Canney  I agree with the Deputy. I was at the ITS Ireland conference in Limerick yesterday at which I saw the technologies that are available. Irish Rail is working with technologies to improve its lines. However, it is very important that we make sure whatever actions we take in relation to improving are correct and that they actually bring the safety standards up to where they are required.  There are 868 level crossings in Ireland, of which 127 are known as occupation-type crossings. These include user-worked unattended occupational level crossings on private and public roads. Since 2008, and including the most recent accident in Mayo, there have been four fatalities at level crossings. It is important to note that on the day in question there were two accidents. The first took place at a level crossing on the Tullamore line when a train collided with a tractor. We then had the fatal accident as well. Some of the people who were discommoded by being removed from the first train were on the second train. It was just a freak occurrence. Unfortunately, it cost a life. That is why it needs a very serious examination of all of the level crossings. I accept the Deputy's point that the technology is there, but we have to make sure the technology will work and that it will hopefully remove the risk of ever seeing something like this happening again. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Question No. 127 taken with Written Answers. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Rail Accidents"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_27","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Public Transport","counts":{"speechCount":10,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_25","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_25","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_27","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_27.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Thomas Gould  Is the Minister of State aware that two services relating to BusConnects had to be rerouted because buses cannot traverse Church Hill in Glanmire despite numerous public consultations and millions of euro being spent on it? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  I thank Deputy Gould for raising this very important matter. As he knows - we are both from Cork city - detailed planning for the implementation of the BusConnects Cork network is under way. I am told by the National Transport Authority, NTA, and Cork City Council that does involve redesign, which is continuing to happen, with the new network to be rolled out on a phased basis. It is fair to say that we both wish it could happen faster. However, the major public transport investment will increase bus services across Cork city by over 50%, supporting a growing population and encouraging greater use of sustainable transport, which we both want.  I am not fully aware of what is proposed, but I was in Riverstown last weekend and am aware of the proposed routing of services via Church Hill in Glanmire. The Deputy mentioned the public consultation. I am informed by the NTA that following the publication of the redesigned network in 2022, it continued to assess proposed routes to ensure they could be operated effectively. In the case of Church Hill, routes 2a and 14a were subject to further testing and detailed consultation with Cork City Council. While buses were able to travel along the alignment proposed originally, further testing identified significant challenges relating to sightlines, footpath issues and the scale of infrastructure works required to address the junctions of Church Hill and Gleann Caoin. Given the cost of those works, the decision was taken by the NTA to realign routes 2a and 14a. Under the revised arrangement, as the Deputy knows, route 2a will operate in both directions on Barnavara Hill towards Dunkettle and will serve the Ballinglanna development, while route 14a will serve Glanmire Road in both directions. I am told by the NTA that the revised alignment has been successfully tested with appropriate associated infrastructure works being considered along the normal planning routes.  I understand the frustrations and challenges experienced by some residents, which I will come back to in a second, in the changes being proposed. I am told by the NTA that the revised alignment is intended to ensure a safe and effective delivery of the new network to enable the expansion of the services through Cork. However, I am prepared to listen to what the Deputy has to say in terms of the residents, whom he is going to talk about in a second. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Thomas Gould  Some \u20ac85 million has been spent on BusConnects in Cork since 2021. That includes \u20ac11 million this year alone. What have we got for it? People in Cork and people I represent will tell the Minister of State we have got nothing for it. Then, after all the consultation - five rounds of consultation - we were told on 27 August that the bus will not be able to serve Church Hill in Glanmire and that there would be no bus stop for people living in Crawford Woods.  People are buying houses, moving into communities and renting while expecting to have a proper bus service. Glanmire is one of the fastest growing areas in the State, with hundreds if not thousands of new houses there. Then we do not have a bus service that delivers. These people expect a bus service. Glanmire was actually in Cork city when the boundary was increased a couple of years ago and now we have a situation where some residents have not got a bus service. Many people in Glanmire are very upset by the standard of bus service they have, with buses not turning up, ghost buses and the app not working. People deserve to have a public transport system they can depend on. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  I thoroughly support Deputy Gould. I share the same ambition he has and it frustrates all of us that we have issues with the bus service, not just in Cork but across the country. To be fair to the NTA - and I am critical of the NTA, as he knows - we have seen investment by Government through the NTA in the BusConnects Cork network and we will have delivery on the ground. It needs to be expedited but, in fairness, as the Deputy is a long-time member of both Cork City Council and the Oireachtas, he knows to get to the end result of BusConnects, there has to be planning, preparation and delivery in the context of BusConnects. There have been different approvals by Government in line with our infrastructure guidelines. I look forward to that happening and to the Deputy and me travelling on buses and being able to be positive about BusConnects Cork.  I wish to make a genuine comment to Deputy Gould. I will happily articulate on his behalf and that of the residents he mentioned, who deserve a bus service that is reliable and accessible. I will take up the points regarding the residents of Glanmire because the Deputy is right. It is a fast-growing area. We need to ensure there is no gridlock in Cork. The N40 is jammed every morning. We have seen since the opening of the Munster Technological University, MTU, and University College Cork, UCC, after the summer and the growth of Cork University Hospital that traffic in the western suburbs has grown expeditiously. I will talk to the Deputy afterwards and I will communicate on his behalf, and that of the residents of Glanmire, with the NTA.  As the Deputy knows, this is not an operational matter for me as a Minister of State and for the Department. It is the NTA working with Cork City Council. I will happily come back to Deputy Gould afterwards on that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Thomas Gould  I wish to update the Minister of State. This route was supposed to be in place in 2024. We are in 2026 and we are told the route is not feasible. Millions of euro have been spent. Some \u20ac85 million has been spent in five years and now we are finding out things cannot be done. How many other routes will this also affect? There are people there at the moment who are experiencing the cost-of-living crisis and are struggling. They are looking at this Government and the NTA burning money. That is what they are doing. They are burning money while people are struggling. The NTA told me that detailed consideration of the scale and cost of the measures has led to a decision not to align this route. Why was that not discovered earlier?  We have a situation in Cork where there is absolute gridlock, no matter which direction you are coming from, whether it is north, south, east or west. That is why we need BusConnects to deliver. What we have is BusConnects not delivering. We have areas like Clogheen, Kerry Pike, Sunday's Well, Upper Glanmire and other areas of Cork that are looking for bus services and were promised them. None of them have been delivered. The other area was Kilcully. All those places are waiting for buses with no sign of them. Actually, it is not that there is no sign of them; they are not coming. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  I will pose the question to Deputy Gould: is he for or against BusConnects? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Thomas Gould  I am for it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  No, hold on----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Thomas Gould  I met with it. I put in submissions. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  Yes. The important point is that we have to deliver. The Deputy talks about burning money. Some \u20ac940 million of a public service obligation, PSO, contribution to public transport is a significant amount of money. The Deputy is around a long time and is a clever man. The money we are spending on BusConnects is about delivery and putting the infrastructure and the planning in place so we will have BusConnects. I am absolutely confident that BusConnects will succeed. The Deputy will come into this House and will be lauding BusConnects when it happens. He is right and I completely agree with him; it is not happening fast enough and it is taking far too long. I share his frustration and I understand the upset among people. I deal with it every day. I meet people every day. I use the bus, despite what the Deputy might think. There are ghost buses but, as the Deputy knows, as he talks to people in Bus \u00c9ireann, it cannot get mechanics or drivers. It has recruited internationally. We have to address the whole point.  I share the Deputy's ambition. I want it delivered and I will work with him to have BusConnects succeed in Cork. I will take on board the Deputy's views, which are genuine, about the area of Glanmire. Glanmire is one of the fastest growing areas of Cork and it does require a bus service that delivers for people. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Public Transport"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_28","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Bus Services","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_25","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_25","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_28","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Canney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_28.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed  Is the Minister for Transport aware of ongoing capacity issues on the north side's 15 bus route and the measures that are being taken to ensure local residents finally get a usable and dependable 15 service? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Canney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Se\u00e1n Canney  I thank the Deputy for raising this important issue. Yes, I am aware of concerns regarding capacity and reliability on the route 15 service, which provides an important 24-hour, high-freguency connection between Ballycullen and Clongriffin, serving communities, including Templeogue, Terenure, Rathmines, the city centre, Fairview and Artane.  I understand that the current route 15 timetable is being reviewed by the NTA and the operator, Dublin Bus, with additional running time and an additional bus being incorporated into the schedule. Here, capacity pressures are most likely to occur around peak school travel times. The revised timetable is due to be introduced on 6 December and will provide for an additional 12 drivers, with the aim of improving service reliability and reducing the impact of delays. An additional journey was also introduced in January 2026 to assist with customer loading.  Looking ahead, the BusConnects programme will also bring changes to the route. The current plan, subject to funding discussions, is for the northside of route 15 to transition to the D-spine in quarter 4 of 2027, with the A-spine covering the southside in 2028. These changes are intended to strengthen connectivity and provide improved public transport options for communities along the route.  I, the Minister for Transport and our officials will continue to support the NTA and Dublin Bus in ensuring that the public transport network has the capacity and resources required to provide reliable services to passengers, particularly where workforce resourcing has been a core concern over the past while. The Department's upcoming public transport workforce task force action plan will play a key role here, looking to facilitate and support the implementation of such critical service changes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed  Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an Aire St\u00e1it. The 15 is meant to be a northside workhorse service serving Belmayne, Clongriffin and Clarehall. As Deputy Gould said, Glanmire is a fast-growing area. This is also a fast-growing area on the northside. It is meant to be a 24-hour service. It is meant to be going every five to 12 minutes at peak but the service is just not delivering. Local residents will tell you that if you are getting on at Clarehall, you cannot get on. The bus is full at Clarehall at peak. Clarehall is stop three out of 17 on the northside stops, if you take Connolly Station as the last northside stop. The NTA's own data for the service show that one in five buses are late and it does not seem to even gather the capacity issues I can see. I do not know how it reports or deals with that. There does not seem to be a mechanism to deal with that. As Cathaoirleach of the climate committee, I advocate for people to get out of cars and get into the buses but the 15 \"ain't working\" and we need to get the NTA to step it up. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Canney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Se\u00e1n Canney  I hear the Deputy's frustration with this service. I have outlined changes that are going to happen in December with additional drivers and bus runs. It is important. The Deputy says the demand is there so we have to make sure that whatever service we put in place actually meets that demand and is providing a service.  It is a capacity issue. It has been in terms of getting drivers, having the buses, having mechanics to service the buses and all of this. I met with the NTA and Bus \u00c9ireann last week in connection with another issue.  These issues are being addressed, but maybe not as quickly as people would like. Like the Minister of State, Deputy Buttimer, said when talking about Cork, I will be bringing this back to the NTA. It is important that whatever we do with public transport we have to make it a service that people enjoy using and that people can rely on so, going back to the Deputy's position as Chair of the environment committee, we end up with a situation where people do not need a car; where they can not just leave it at home but maybe get rid of it and enjoy public transport. That is the overriding goal for everybody. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Muir\u00ed.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed  I raised this in February and the response at the time was it was planned that a revised schedule for route 15 would be introduced in September. It is now September. I welcome the clarity on what the NTA is proposing but now it is saying, per the Minister of State's response, it will introduce its changes in December. Everything is being dragged out. We are talking about a fair increase in bus services raising about \u20ac70 million of which only a quarter is really targeted at improving services like this.  I am not going to repeat myself but we really need to crack the 15 so it works for the northside. I know the Minister of State will but I implore him to sit on the NTA, to dialogue with it and to get this service working properly so the people I talked about finally get a reliable service as commuters to work or school, or to appointments in the city centre. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Canney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Se\u00e1n Canney  I thank the Deputy. I will bring his concerns back to the NTA. It is no problem. I will also seek to find out whether it can bring forward that date if it had already given a date in September. The date the authority now says it is going to introduce the service is 6 December. I do not know why it has been delayed. I can imagine why. An additional 12 drivers and additional bus services coming on will make a difference but we need to keep on top of it to ensure the service is fit for purpose and that we provide public transport for those who want to use it. That is the aim of everybody and we will continue to work on that. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Question No. 130 taken with Written Answers. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Bus Services"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_29","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Bus Services","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_25","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_25","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_29","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Canney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_29.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Canney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Se\u00e1n Canney  As the statutory body responsible for regulating fares across services operated under the PSO contracts the National Transport Authority is central to shaping a public transport system that is fair, efficient and accessible. Through its management of fare strategies, it helps to ensure pricing structures support social inclusion and modal shift while also underpinning the financial viability and resilience of the network.  A significant milestone under the national fares strategy was reached in July 2026, when a simplified fare structure already in place in Dublin was extended to Cork. Passengers there can now avail of the TFI 90-minute fare, allowing transfers between multiple bus services within a defined period on a single fare. This is encouraging multimodal travel and reducing the cost of interchange. The NTA recently noted the introduction of the TFI 90 fare and fare capping has delivered a simpler and more affordable fare structure for passengers in that area, with a view to facilitating future expansion of the multimodal network. This represents a shift away from operator-specific pricing towards a customer-centred, integrated transport network. For the first time, passengers using Bus \u00c9ireann's Cork TFI city bus services can catch any bus in the city and transfer between buses in Cork city as often as needed within 90 minutes, all for a single fare of \u20ac1.70. The new on-board ticket validators complement this by allowing passengers to tap their Leap card. This reduces boarding times and improves overall reliability and punctuality.  The national fare determination announced by the NTA in September builds on this for Cork with city fares being held at those levels from July 2026, rather than adjusted or further increased. Time-based tickets for children, students and young adults such as 1-day, 7-day, monthly and annual tickets will actually see costs fall by about 30%. These offer particularly good value for some frequent users and demonstrate both the NTA and Department are firmly committed to delivering a public transport system that is sustainable, dependable, accessible and affordable. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Thomas Gould  Just to let the Minister of State know, the fare hike came into Cork in July. What that means for adults going to work, college or hospital appointments is an extra \u20ac240 a year. On top of that now we will see the price go up for the train. If you get the train or the bus you are going to see your fares going up. Has the Minister of State conducted any tests to see if people can afford to absorb these fare hikes? People are telling me they are being priced out. He talks about the 90-minute fare but we have people who could be waiting an hour for the bus. That would not be unusual. Expecting the 90-minute fare to work is not feasible with the bus service we currently have in Cork. Not one extra bus route has been delivered in Cork in 2026 and at the same time the bus fares are being hiked up. How can that be justified? The app is not working. The NTA has admitted that. I have met the authority on a number of occasions. People are standing at bus stops looking at signs and the app is not working. They are looking at their phones to see when the next bus is and the bus disappears. How can that be right? How can the Government be charging people extra for that? The only thing we are getting from BusConnects is announcements. We are not getting buses and we are not getting new bus services. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Canney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Se\u00e1n Canney  I will repeat what I have said about the changes that happened in July 2026 in Cork. They make the fares cheaper and make it easier for people to use multimodal transport. If there are issues with buses not coming on time we have discussed that earlier and we are working on that. The cost for children, students and young adults in Cork of time-based tickets such as the 1-day, 7-day, monthly and annual tickets is coming down by about 30%. That is a fact. This is as a result of the introduction of the standard discount for young adult and students at 50% and children at 33% of equivalent adult fares. These can offer very good value for some frequent users.  It is important to say this Government has invested \u20ac941 million in the PSO levy in 2026. That is a huge increase from 2025 and we will continue to invest in public transport. There are problems with public transport in places and we will continue to work on that to improve its efficiency and reliability. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Thomas Gould  We were told in Cork the fair increases were to pay for the 90-minute fares that were to come in. This is nonsense. It was done when the schools and the colleges were on holidays. It was snuck in over the summer with the thought that people would not spot it, but I spotted it. People who get the bus contacted me because they spotted it and could feel the difference. We are now being told more hardware will be needed for contactless payments. Will fares go up again when that comes in? People are struggling. There is a cost-of-living crisis. The cost for adults is an extra \u20ac240 a year. They cannot afford to drive and now they cannot afford to take the bus. Where was the feasibility audit done to see if people can afford this? The Minister of State talks about the PSO levy, about climate change and about getting people out of cars. How does putting up the price of buses at the same time as trying to get people out of cars work?  I have another point to make. We have one park-and-ride in Cork. There is gridlock in Cork city. Why are park-and-rides not being rolled out north, west and east of the city so we can get people out of cars? We need have buses for them to get into the city. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Canney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Se\u00e1n Canney  The local authority should be putting in place the park-and-rides. The Department of Transport will support that and we need to see what the proposals are.  Let us just go back to understand what the PSO services support. They support a wide range of Government policy including climate action, sustainable mobility, regional development, social inclusion, compact growth and economic competitiveness as well as the accommodation of population growth.  There is a significant increase in demand for public transport because we are providing additional public transport at a price that is affordable. It has to be said that 27% of the population can avail of free travel. This is another important fact. It is important that we not lose the run of ourselves. We have to make sure that whatever we do in public transport is sustainable and that we can deliver the service to make sure that everybody has that choice and can enjoy using public transport as well. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Bus Services"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_30","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Public Transport","counts":{"speechCount":8,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_25","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_25","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_30","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Erin McGreehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_30.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Erin McGreehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Erin McGreehan  I am asking about the actions undertaken to improve transport in rural areas, in particular in north Louth and mid-Louth. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  I thank the Deputy for her ongoing support for public transport in Louth and other places in rural Ireland. This question deserves attention in terms of the progress we have made in rural transport. As the Deputy knows, it is one of the key points of our programme for Government. The Minister, the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, and I are very much committed to balanced regional investment being designated as a core principle in the national development plan, NDP, sectoral investment plan for transport. Predicated on that is investment in rural transport, Local Link and that piece to which we will return in a minute.  The Government is firmly committed to rolling out additional improved service levels along with expanded and improved infrastructure at national and regional levels. Probably the most visible of these programmes is the Connecting Ireland rural mobility plan. This is a multiphase programme of investment in a new and improved public transport service for rural areas. Under the programme, upwards of 600,000 people now have access to useful daily public transport services for the first time and 188 new and improved regular public transport services have been provided, resulting in a more than fivefold increase in passenger numbers. Multimodal transport is something that has existed in urban areas for a long time and I am delighted that, under our remit, we are now seeing rural communities connected as well.  It is a key commitment in the programme for Government and also for County Louth, and I thank the Deputy for raising the matter. I met John McGahon, chief executive of Dundalk Chamber of Commerce yesterday and he raised the matter with me. The Deputy has been very strong in her advocacy to me for a long time. The sectoral plan will also see us looking at investment in greenways but also giving an uplift in terms of rail.  In my supplementary answer, I will discuss other matters regarding County Louth. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Erin McGreehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Erin McGreehan  As the Minister of State is aware, Louth is the smallest county. Sometimes, one would imagine that it would be easier to get around the county by bus but when one tries to reduce one's reliance on private transport, it feels sometimes like crossing a continent. We all know that rural connectivity is a real programme for Government commitment. We need to be able to travel between our towns and villages and from our rural communities where people live, work and access all services. The bus service in Louth is not fit for purpose in many ways. There is no direct bus between Ardee and Dunleer, which are neighbouring towns and only a 15-minute drive apart. To make that short journey by public transport, one has to go from Ardee to Dundalk or from Ardee to Drogheda to get to Dunleer. It makes no sense.  The service from Dundalk to Omeath and beyond is very local to me. Buses serve the Cooley Peninsula but the timetable is far too limited. If one wants to rely on transport for education, healthcare or work, one really needs to take the car. The service does not get people to where they need to be in a particular time. We need more frequency. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  I hear what the Deputy is saying in the context of County Louth. The key point for us as a Department and for me as the Minister of State with responsibility for rural transport is to look, along with TFI and Local Link, at the enhancement of the No. 161 from Dundalk to Carlingford to Newry. We are also looking at the piece around the No. 162 Dundalk to Monaghan bus service and the review of existing services in County Louth, including the No. 177 between Ardee and Dunleer. I will certainly take the Deputy's views back.  We are looking at the proposed new DN1 route between \u00c1th Leathan, Dundalk Institute of Technology, DkIT, and Haynestown-Marlmount. As part of our negotiations with the Department of public expenditure on the budget, it is important that we see investment in rural transport, but I will work with the Deputy to ensure that we see further investment in County Louth. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Erin McGreehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Erin McGreehan  It is positive that the Minister of State is looking at this. We need a robust plan for Louth to allow us to travel across and enjoy our county by bus. It is a fabulous place and the integration of additional routes would be a fantastic investment in the people and roads of County Louth. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  I was in Carlingford over the summer, which is a beautiful spot. Regarding the Deputy's point about passenger numbers, the numbers using the regular rural service have increased by 72%. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Erin McGreehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Erin McGreehan  That shows the interest. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  If we put in investment aligned with the interest, people will travel. As the Deputy said, it is about tourism and economic opportunity but also about getting people from A to B. It goes back to the discussion that I had with Deputy Gould this morning about getting people out of their cars and onto buses. I will work with Deputy McGreehan on that. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Question No. 133 taken with Written Answers. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Public Transport"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_31","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Public Transport","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_25","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_25","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_31","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Canney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_31.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pa Daly  I also want to ask about whether there is an equivalent ambition to delivering more rural services, as we cannot have a situation where all of the money for the next few years is invested inside the M50 and not beyond. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Canney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Se\u00e1n Canney  The Estimates are the Estimates. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating when the tender is brought in. I will not give any commitment until we see what the real overall cost is from the tenders. The range that is there at the moment is between \u20ac14.4 billion at the lower end to \u20ac17.49 billion. The firm proof of the pudding will be when the tenders come in next year. This project is a key component in delivering not just a rail connection within the city of Dublin, but also the opportunity to build houses and open the entire city up for development.  The Deputy asked about rural Ireland and what we were doing around the country. We have put the Galway outer ring road and the Cork commuter rail in as two strategic projects that we need to get done. They are moving ahead fairly fast. Within the all-island rail strategy, which is under my remit, the Deputy can see what has been prioritised in terms of rural rail and what needs to be done there. The Deputy can see what we are already doing in terms of the development at Cork and Limerick stations and what has been completed at Galway station in order to provide for additional rail capacity. That is happening as we speak under the strategy. There is an opportunity for us in the regions to make sure that we continue to develop and provide the infrastructure so that people can live, work and enjoy life in the regions. That is Government policy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pa Daly  I know I am under time constraints, but I note that some people from Garvaghy Road have arrived in the Public Gallery. I welcome them and stand in solidarity with and support them.  There is only one problem, in that the Minister of State has not answered the question I asked him about the budgetary constraints and whether the Government was going to deliver on cost. We have seen what happened over the years with the children's hospital - the cost overruns there - so is the Minister of State going to give us a commitment to deal with any escalating costs? What provisions has the Government put in place to prevent a cost overrun like those we have seen on so many different projects over the years? The Government cannot present the public with another multibillion euro project without keeping costs down because we have seen cuts around the country, particularly in County Kerry, where we are waiting on more buses and larger buses. One cannot even get a cup of tea on the train from Kerry to Dublin. We see that the lack of services there in contrast to all the moneys being committed, so we want to make sure that the money is going to be limited. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Canney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Canney.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Se\u00e1n Canney  The Deputy is asking what kinds of constraint or what time or safety factors we will put into the contract. That contract and the conditions of that contract are being prepared at the moment before it goes out to tender.  I can assure the Deputy that this project will be delivered. It has to be delivered because it is vital for the country. It is the single largest project that we will undertake from a capital expenditure point of view. I look forward to it being delivered.  Many projects in this country are delivered on time, within budget and to the highest standards, and we do not talk about that at all. It is important that I say that and put it on the record. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Is f\u00e9idir teacht ar Cheisteanna Scr\u00edofa ar www.oireachtas.ie. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Written Answers are published on the Oireachtas website. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Public Transport"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_32","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Leaders\u2019 Questions","counts":{"speechCount":43,"speakerCount":11},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_32","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Deputies","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Kevin Boxer Moran","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Kevin-Boxer-Moran.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Kevin-Boxer-Moran.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pearse Doherty  Before I begin, I want to welcome to the D\u00e1il the members of the Garvaghy Road Residents Coalition who are in the Gallery. F\u00e1ilte romhaibh go l\u00e9ir inniu. They come here at a deeply concerning moment for their community because a fresh application has been made for an Orange march along the Garvaghy Road in Portadown this Sunday. That is an issue that can reopen issues residents believed were settled for nearly three decades now. It is raising real fears, real concerns and renewed division and tension in that area. It should not be allowed to happen.  T\u00e1 teaghlaigh at\u00e1 ag obair faoi bhr\u00fa ollmh\u00f3r \u00f3 gach treo. T\u00e1 na bill\u00ed siopad\u00f3ireachta ag ard\u00fa, t\u00e1 costas tith\u00edochta ag dul in airde ar ghn\u00e1ththithe, agus t\u00e1 costais breosla ag ard\u00fa go gasta. Anois d\u00edreach, agus muid ag tabhairt aghaidh ar an ngeimhreadh, t\u00e1 bill\u00ed leictreachais agus g\u00e1is ag ard\u00fa ar\u00eds. Taobh istigh de choic\u00eds, t\u00e1 SSE Airtricity, Bord G\u00e1is agus Energia le gn\u00e1thbhill\u00ed leictreachais a ard\u00fa do n\u00edos m\u00f3 n\u00e1 milli\u00fan teaghlach. T\u00e1 g\u00e9argh\u00e1 le creidmheas leictreachais. An athr\u00f3idh an T\u00e1naiste a intinn agus gealltanas a thabhairt inniu go gcuirfidh an Rialtas \u20ac400 i gcreidmheasanna leictreachais ar f\u00e1il do theaghlaigh fud fad na t\u00edre an gheimhreadh seo le d\u00e9ile\u00e1il leis na hardaithe praghais seo at\u00e1 in ann d\u00f3ibh?  There is no doubt that people are being ripped off from every direction. The weekly shop, fuel and now electricity and gas prices are all going up and up. More and more of people\u2019s hard-earned wages are being swallowed up just to cover the basics. In just 11 days' time, one day before the budget, there is going to be a wave of increases in electricity prices. SSE Airtricity will increase its prices, Bord G\u00e1is will follow and Energia will follow after that. Together, these increases are going to affect 1 million households out there. For families using gas and electricity, the increase will be more than \u20ac300 a year.  This is something the T\u00e1naiste could have seen coming. At almost exactly the same time last year, energy suppliers were announcing increases and the Government was withdrawing energy credits from families. It did that despite the energy regulator warning that without those credits, arrears could increase significantly. The Government went against that warning, and that is exactly what happened. By February of this year, more than 300,000 electricity accounts were in arrears. The numbers were significantly higher than the previous year. By June of this year, more than 500,000 electricity and gas accounts combined were in arrears.  We warned the Government that this was going to happen. We have consistently raised the issue of energy credits and the supports that families need. We have raised it over and over again. The Government simply does not understand the pressure that people are under. Now, we are back here again. Prices are rising and winter is coming. People want solutions. I cannot understand the Government\u2019s hands-off approach to big energy companies that is allowing this to happen. It must intervene to help people. It must realise the scale of the problem that is out there. There is a solution. We have put forward the solution to the Government time and again. We have consistently called on it to deliver \u20ac400 in electricity credits this winter, and do the heavy lifting in terms of the solutions that Sinn F\u00e9in has put forward that would permanently see a reduction in electricity prices across the State. We have repeatedly called for these credits to be restored.  Will the T\u00e1naiste give any certainty to people today? They know that their electricity will increase in just 11 days' time. One million households out there are going to see nearly a double-digit increase. What certainty will the T\u00e1naiste give them? Can he tell them that the Government decision to withdraw the energy credits has resulted in more people falling into arrears, which is a fact? Can he tell them he has learned that lesson and will now commit to them to introduce a \u20ac400 energy credit to help them pay these bills? Will he stop taking a hands-off approach while these big companies are ripping off their customers, left, right and centre? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  First, I join with the Deputy in welcoming residents of the Garvaghy Road to D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann today. I am very much aware of the concerns of residents in the area. I am also very much aware of the very painful and traumatic history in relation to that community and what they endured. I want to assure the Deputy that Government officials are monitoring the situation closely. Like him, I am mindful of the role of the Parades Commission. Again I very much welcome the residents to D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann today.  I am extremely conscious, as is the Government, of the pressure that people are under when it comes to energy costs and energy prices. I want to say to people in this country that help is on the way through the budget in 12 days' time. There are a number of issues that we are actively endeavouring to advance to provide assistance and certainty to people when it comes to energy, while also being honest with people that there is no government in the world that can absorb all of the impact of a global energy shock. There simply is not, and it would be untrue to suggest that there is, but there are things we can do and things we will do.  The first is providing certainty in relation to excise for the winter period. I heard Deputy Doherty earlier this morning on a radio programme. Beyond weeks, certainty for the winter period on excise is something that we can and will provide.  Second, looking at the issue of carbon taxation in terms of how it applies to certain products, the Deputy will recall that my officials did a piece of work in the summer through the Tax Strategy Group, and they published a paper in July, I think, which looked at the idea of different products and how they could potentially be considered in the context of carbon tax. I am particularly concerned by the home heating situation and the gas situation, which the Deputy referenced. Similarly, we have to be honest with people on this. There is a limitation to how much you can do on that without bringing yourself into a challenge with the European system, and we do not want to tip that balance wrong, but this is certainly something we are going to actively look at.  Third, there are decisions we can make in terms of parts of our society and sectors within our economy that are most at risk of fuel poverty or most dependent on fuel. I am thinking of lower income households and those who qualify for the fuel allowance. The fuel allowance season will start on Monday, with more than a quarter of households in the country, 500,000 households, benefiting from that. I am also thinking of our farmers and hauliers, who are particularly dependent on fuel, and our supply chains are dependent on them.  Fourth, we need to help households and businesses with the actions that they are already trying to take to reduce their electricity and energy bills. Whether it is through solar panels or retrofitting, we know households and businesses are doing things in the here and now, and we need to make it that bit easier for them to do that. Deputy Doherty will have heard the Minister for energy talk about his plans for a scrappage scheme for boilers, and there has been a significant and widespread welcome for that from experts this morning.  In addition to this, the budget will need to be viewed in the round. There are certain measures we can take on the energy side. There will be a temporary package of measures in relation to energy, and the Deputy made some suggestions on that this morning. The composition of that is for the Government to decide in the days ahead. I would also say to people that they will need to look at the budget in the round. Families and businesses do not view things in the kind of Government Department or agency silos that this place sometimes discusses. They view this in terms of what it means for their families. If we can reduce the income tax burden and look at the challenges and costs that families face around childcare and the like, that too can help.  In 12 days' time, the budget will be delivered. Energy will be a big part of the Government\u2019s budgetary package but a cost-of-living theme will be weaving through all of the various levers at the disposal of the Government across a range of areas. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pearse Doherty  When I stood here this time last year, raising these questions with the T\u00e1naiste, he was giving the same type of mantra: this would be a cost-of-living budget, and this had to be looked at in the round. People know their real-life experience in the last year. They feel worse off. They feel under more pressure. They have seen their grocery bills increase and their petrol, diesel and home heating oil increase. They have seen their rent increase. They have seen their mortgage increase. They have seen increases that the Government has brought forward in relation to student fees and other things that have put pressure on those families. They know the pressure that they are under. They are also looking at a government that is talking about billions of euro in surplus, and they are asking that some of that is used to support them now.  We have put forward a proposal time and again to the Government. We told the Government that it was absolutely wrong to withdraw those energy credits. There is a direct connection between what happened in households right across the State and the decision the Government took. When it decided to end energy credits, more families fell into arrears - that is just fact. The T\u00e1naiste can shake his head all he wants. Let me tell him the facts. In February of this year, 316,000 households were in arrears. In the previous year, it was fewer than 60,000. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Deputy, the T\u00e1naiste will respond. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pearse Doherty  That is a fact. The question I am asking is, will the T\u00e1naiste commit to giving certainty to families and reintroducing energy credits to help people to pay their electricity bills? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Deputies","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputies  Hear, hear. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  The Deputy has been at this for a long time. A very long time, in fact. Let us not rewrite geopolitical history as to why energy prices have risen. It is not due to any decision taken in D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann. It is because the Strait of Hormuz is closed. It is because there has been bombing of Iran. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pearse Doherty  It is not funny. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Louise O'Reilly  It is not funny. The T\u00e1naiste should not laugh about it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  Neither the Deputy nor I took a decision. Let us not blow up the egos of people in this House. There is a geopolitical energy shock going on. It is the greatest energy shock in the history of the globe, according to the International Energy Agency. This has nothing to do with energy credits in the last domestic budget. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pearse Doherty  Of course it has. Does the T\u00e1naiste think that taking away the energy credits did not have an impact? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Louise O'Reilly  If they made no difference, why did the Government introduce them? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  Come on, Deputies. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Please, Deputy Doherty. Allow the answer to the question you asked. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  May I answer the question? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pearse Doherty  That is just silly. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I know the Deputy likes to blame me for everything but the closure of the Strait of Hormuz is a stretch. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pearse Doherty  Nobody is blaming the T\u00e1naiste for that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  That is what has happened with the global energy market. The Deputy asked whether the Government would use some of the surpluses to assist the people. We have the largest intervention in the European Union. It is eight times larger than the intervention in France. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  I thank the T\u00e1naiste. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  That is one of the reasons, when we look at petrol and diesel prices across the European Union, that Ireland is not in the top ten. Help is on the way. There will be more help in 12 days. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  Hear, hear. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(Interruptions)."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  I ask that colleagues join me in offering a warm c\u00e9ad m\u00edle f\u00e1ilte to a delegation in Public Gallery, indeed all of those in the Public Gallery today, who are from the working party on general affairs of the Council of European Union, led by Mr. Philip Grant and Mr. Nigel Hutson. They are in Dublin for a meeting of the General Affairs Council and are being hosted in Leinster House by the Minister of State, Deputy Thomas Byrne. They are all very welcome.  On the other side of the Public Gallery, I believe we have fifth and sixth class students from Blessington Educate Together National School. They are all most welcome.  I now call Deputy Whitmore. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Whitmore  I welcome everyone to the Public Gallery, and give a special welcome to the fifth and sixth class students.  There are now more than 500,000 households in arrears on their gas and electricity bills. That number has never been higher and it is continuing to soar. Thousands of people all over the country are facing a cold and bleak winter and feel a rising sense of dread every single time a bill comes through their doors. Many of these people have never had problems paying bills before but now, despite scrimping and saving, they are simply unable to make their budgets go any further.  At the same time as more people go into arrears on their bills, the profits of energy companies are booming. Just last week, the ESB announced its profits for the first half of the year: they were up by \u20ac100 million. Its CEO is in line for a pay hike of an eye-watering \u20ac161,000. This gives some indication of the bonanza that energy companies are enjoying. This is all happening while their very own customers are going cold. This is not sustainable, it is not fair and it is not right. It is time that the Government stopped hand wringing and actually did something about it.  A windfall tax on the superprofits of energy companies needs to be introduced now to stop this immoral profiteering. This is money that could be used to provide support for those who need it most, a \u20ac400 targeted energy credit for low- and middle-income earners to give them some immediate relief from skyrocketing bills as they face into a very difficult winter. However, the budget needs to go much further than that. We all know that Trump caused the war in Iran and the global energy shocks that arose from it but it is the Government that has left households so exposed to these energy price shocks by failing to invest and to support them to become resilient and move away from fossil fuels. The Government has failed to invest in solar to the extent it should have. We should be front-loading investment in solar panels, which can be installed quickly and easily and bring costs down immediately. That would mean at least a saving of \u20ac450 on bills this year, next year and every year after. The Social Democrats have a solar for all plan that we are asking the Government to adopt. It would double the grants for solar panels, introduce a grant for battery storage and make solar panels free for households most at risk of fuel poverty. Finally, please roll out plug-in solar. That is what we need to see, namely, some ambition from this Government instead of the usual tinkering around the edges.  Does the T\u00e1naiste agree that it is immoral for energy companies to make windfall profits during an energy crisis? Will the Government introduce a windfall tax on their superprofits? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  I thank the Deputy. The T\u00e1naiste to respond. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Whitmore  Will the Government introduce a \u20ac400 energy credit for low- and middle-income families and radically ramp up solar? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I join Deputy Whitmore in welcoming our constituents from Blessington Educate Together National School. It is good to have them all here.  There are a couple of points I want to respond to. I believe there is significant merit in a windfall energy tax. This is not just me commenting on it, as I chaired a meeting on it in Dublin Castle last week with all of my European counterparts. We have tasked the European Commission with doing a body of work and reporting back to the Economic and Financial Affairs Council, ECOFIN - the meeting of European finance ministers - which will take place, from my memory, on the Thursday and Friday of budget week. It is best to approach these issues at a European level. That is how we approached it in the past when the Deputy will recall that we legislated for a framework and put in place a tax at the start of the Ukraine situation after the brutal, illegal Russian invasion of Ukraine. There are some companies that are benefiting very significantly from profits, not because they are enterprising or innovative, but just because the Strait of Hormuz is shut. Therefore, there is a compelling case. Working at a European level is important, but that is not a long-term comment. The Commission is due to report back to ECOFIN on the Thursday and Friday of budget week.  Deputy Whitmore's party has put forward proposals on how to help people through this winter period and beyond with their energy costs. There will be an energy package in the budget. There will be some temporary measures to help people with the here and now and this winter. However, I agree that there also need to be some measures to help people more permanently. The details of that are for budget day but the Deputy heard the Minister for energy yesterday giving an indication of a number of proposals that he intends to bring forward on battery storage and a scrappage scheme for boilers.  Quite frankly, we are seeing people go gangbusters on solar panels and electric vehicles, EVs. We see it in our own community and in the data that is coming through. However, we still need to see if there is more we can do to help accelerate that because people are trying to make decisions in the here and now in their own lives to reduce their bills. People are full of common sense. We need to make it as easy as possible for them to make those decisions too. There are things we need to do in the here and now. I know the Social Democrats also voted this way on temporary excise reductions and what we do on home heating. I would make the point that the fuel allowance is already a targeted energy support. It will kick off from next Monday. We accept that, going into this winter period, energy prices will probably be the number one concern on the minds of people in this country and we will come forward with a comprehensive package of measures in the budget in 12 days' time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Whitmore  I thank the T\u00e1naiste and I welcomed hearing the Minister talking about battery storage. It would have been better if the Government had not removed the battery storage grant in 2022 when Ukraine was invaded. That would have assisted.  A lot of people have put in solar, but there are many hundreds of thousands of people who cannot afford to do it. It is those people who are really struggling. It is the low-to-middle-income earners who are finding it hard to move away from fossil fuels because they are not getting enough support from the Government. Rather than throwing good money hand over fist at these short-term, emergency, temporary measures that are incredibly costly and leave us with nothing to show for them at the end of the day, it would be better if all those billions of euro given in energy credits previously were actually doing their job and we did not have nearly 330,000 people in arrears on their electricity bills or 188,000 people in arrears on their gas bills. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  I thank the Deputy. The T\u00e1naiste to respond. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Whitmore  They do not work. We need to insulate homes. That entails a long-term strategy and long-term investment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I agree, and then I have a point of difference. I agree that there are lots of people out there who want to make the transition in their own lives and are still finding the gap too large. I was at the ploughing championships and met representatives of the Irish Farmers Association, IFA, in the IFA tent on this. Often, farmers are pitted against climate action but there are many farmers saying they want to put solar on their buildings and they need more support through the targeted agriculture modernisation scheme, TAMS. These are active issues we need to look at.  We need to do both, though. We need to help with the here and now, too. I will say to people right across the country that the measures we help them with, albeit they are classified as temporary in terms of trying to somewhat suppress the growth in energy prices, have a positive inflationary effect on the economy. Officials and economists in my Department estimate that the measures we have put in place to help reduce energy prices somewhat with excise reductions and the like have not been wasted measures and have actually kept down inflation by approximately 0.6%.  Officials and economists in my Department estimate that the measures we have put in place to help reduce energy prices somewhat, with the excise reductions and the likes, certainly have not been wasted measures but, rather, have actually kept down inflation by approximately 0.6%. When someone is shopping in the supermarket tonight with their basket of goods, that food would have cost approximately 0.6% more had we not taken these measures. We need to do both. However, I fully accept that we are facing the second energy shock in the European Union in half a decade and we need to transition much more quickly. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ged Nash  Energy costs are the absolute top priority for people across the country. The October budget in a couple of weeks\u2019 time will be all about the cost of living. It has been a busy few weeks for the T\u00e1naiste and his Cabinet colleagues. Two weeks to the budget and Simon\u2019s sieve gets leakier by the day. There will be indexation of income tax bands and credits for PAYE workers but nothing to address the hit they took last year when working people were made to pay for tax cuts for diners and developers. There will be a fiver in the fuel allowance but no commitment yet to the extra four weeks again next year. There will be an extension of the cuts to excise on motor fuels and, as the T\u00e1naiste has said time and again, something will be done to reduce the price of home heating oil. These measures will barely make a dent in the real costs for families. The Government seems only to be concerned with certain sectors of society - only some energy users and only some road users.  Electricity and gas prices are already going up by at least 10%. Public transport fares are to rise by even more. The price of diesel and kerosene will rise further and it is oil and energy companies that are profiting massively off the crisis caused by Trump. Why is the Government not taking a comprehensive approach to energy affordability? The impact of higher oil prices is already feeding into higher inflation. Input costs for construction, transport, fertiliser and so on will lead to even higher food and housing costs next year. Wages will have to rise but the Government is turning its back, for example, on public sector workers. Families are really struggling with soaring grocery bills and unaffordable rents. They need to know the Government\u2019s plan on energy costs. The T\u00e1naiste needs to front up with them now.  Last week, finance ministers from across Europe met with the T\u00e1naiste. They gathered in Dublin. Six of them wrote to the T\u00e1naiste a number of weeks ago in relation to taxing the windfall profits of power companies. A week on, where does the Government actually stand? I know what the T\u00e1naiste said earlier but will this happen? We know that carbon tax will be paused again but consumers are getting the price signal of higher oil prices and that will change behaviour. What we are missing is the ring-fenced funds to help families who were hit the hardest. A windfall tax is needed to support households with targeted energy credits and to fund retrofitting. It could help to plug the carbon tax gap too.  The energy crisis has been rolling on for months - in fact, it has been rolling on for years - and we need a proper plan. In May, the Minister for energy updated the Cabinet on progress from the national energy affordability taskforce. An action plan was supposed to be submitted to Government by the autumn - we have heard little of it since - focused on short, medium and longer-term measures to support households and businesses. That is all this Government seems to be doing. I have three questions. Has the Government received the energy affordability action plan and will it be published before the budget? Will it put an actual windfall tax on power companies and when? On behalf of families throughout the country, I have a very clear question: will the Government finally commit to a \u20ac400 targeted energy grant for families across the country? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I am slightly confused. On the one hand the Deputy is chastising me for talking about what might be in the budget and on the other he is asking me to give it all out today. Those two things are a little bit contradictory even for me to justify in my own mind. I certainly make no apology nor do I need any permission from the Opposition to talk directly to the people of Ireland about the Government's intentions and not allow those intentions to be misrepresented by the Opposition. I want the people of Ireland to know and will continue to communicate directly with the people of Ireland in relation to our budgetary plans, in relation to our plans to deliver on our programme for Government commitments about making sure work pays and that people who work hard in this county can get ahead and not just get by. We are going to make progress in areas like childcare and there will be a significant package of supports for energy in the budget in 12 days' time.  I know we have this debate regularly and the Deputy will not be surprised to hear me say this but I want to say it again: when he says our packages to date have just supported parts of society or some sectors of the economy, I have to push back on that. The economic advice available to the Oireachtas through the chief economist to my Department is very clear that the package of measures we have put in place has suppressed inflation in the overall economy by 0.6%. A PAYE worker, even one who does not drive a car, is actually benefiting from a lower rate of inflation than we would have otherwise seen. There is a direct correlation between the commodity price and general inflation in the economy. I want to make that point.  I also want to push back on the idea that we do not want to do a deal with public sector workers. We want to sit down with them and for work to pay in this country for everybody in the public and private sectors. We value the role and contribution of our public sector workers. We have constructive trade unions in this country. I said that to them directly this week. They played a big role in this country in the darkest economic days. We want to get around a table and have a conversation about a new public sector pay deal.  On the Deputy\u2019s three specific questions, I have received, I believe, or certainly I am aware of the content in relation to the national energy affordability taskforce report. There are a number of proposals there that Government will be able to advance and bring forward. I need to seek clarity from the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, as to his intention in relation to publication and the likes, and I do not wish to speak for him other than to say there is good work being done there. I am taking the constructive, genuine way in which the Deputy wants to see it and consider what might be there, so I will speak to Government colleagues in relation to that.  On the issue of energy in general, the Deputy is asking me to clarify what will be in the package and whether there will be certain proposals. I accept and acknowledge that the Deputy has made constructive proposals too. The final composition of the energy tax package has not yet been decided by Government. It will be decided in advance of budget day. There will be some temporary measures to help in the here and now. The fuel allowance scheme, which is permanent, opens on Monday. I reiterate that for people watching. There also need to be more permanent measures in terms of how we can help people transition. We will consider all of the constructive ideas we have heard in this House in the composition of that.  On the windfall energy tax, given that we hold the Presidency of the Council of the European Union, Ireland has to play an honest broker role in trying to get people around the table to see if there is a consensus or majority view. That is what we kicked off in Dublin Castle the last week. We asked the European Commission to do a body of work and report back to ECOFIN on Thursday week. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ged Nash  We know the decisions taken in last year's budget, where PAYE workers were simply ignored by this Government, have made things much more difficult for ordinary working families throughout the country to absorb even small increases in food and energy prices. The Government needs to make up for that in this budget. The T\u00e1naiste knows that himself. In my view, that is a decision that will haunt this Government and its relationship with PAYE workers for the duration of its term. We know that energy costs will absolutely dominate the political discourse. It is what everybody is talking about on the streets, at football matches and in our offices and clinics. It is of huge concern. We cannot keep making up energy policy and interventions on the hoof. I ask again: why is the energy affordability plan we were told to expect by the autumn to enable us all to plan for the budget in a comprehensive way being hidden? Why is it being concealed? What is the T\u00e1naiste's position on energy credits? He is prepared to tell the media what his view is on excise cuts, carbon tax, kerosene and VAT and so on, but not on energy credits. We need to know. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Kevin Boxer Moran","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Kevin-Boxer-Moran.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Kevin-Boxer-Moran.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Kevin Boxer Moran  If you had come into Government when you had the chance, we would be able to tell you now. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Please, Minister. That is unnecessary. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I have direct responsibility in government for taxation policy, excise tax, and the application of tax on carbon. Therefore, when I am asked a direct question, I answer it. The issue in relation to energy credits and energy supports in general is a matter for the broader Government to consider in the round. I genuinely believe, and I think the Deputy does deep down too, that people are less concerned about the modality by which we help people and more concerned about help. What I am saying very clearly to people is there will be a number of ways we will endeavour to help people with the cost of living. They do not quite think in the way we think in this structured bureaucracy we work in, sometimes. They want to know if they are going to be helped to get through the winter, if they will have more of their take-home pay, if their childcare bill is going to come down and if somebody is going to do something in this global chaos of energy to try to suppress Ireland's exposure to it to some degree. The answer to all of those questions is \"Yes\". The Government will come forward with a range of measures. I acknowledge the constructive suggestions from some Opposition parties. We will take them on board. We will consider all of these in the round and we will bring forward an energy package on budget day, which is just 12 days away. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Roderic O'Gorman  The T\u00e1naiste has said budget 2027 will prioritise workers who get up early every morning, yet the hundreds of thousands of workers who get up early every morning to catch a bus, train or Luas find they are being targeted by the Government to pay more. Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael have made a choice. In the middle of a cost-of-living crisis, they have chosen now as a good time to hike up public transport fares - not by the rate of inflation, which is 3% or 4%, but by an average of 15%, and far more for some journeys. For example, standard fares in Limerick, Galway and Waterford are going up by 26% under the guise of simplification. Child rail commuter fares in Cork are actually increasing by 130% because of new rules around standardisation. For a short hop journey on Dublin Bus, the fare is rising by 33%.  So what does that actually mean? It means that if you take the bus to and from work in Dublin city, you are paying an extra euro a day, an extra fiver a week, an extra 250 quid a year. That is a real impact on people's incomes at the best of times but to put that on people in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis is cruel. The T\u00e1naiste has made a huge political play about the income tax changes that are due in the budget, which will deliver hundreds of euro to workers. Yet if those workers take public transport, he is going to reach into their pocket and take hundreds of euro back. Budget 2027 will punish people who take the bus to work. The only promise that commuters have to look forward to is that he is going to do it the same time again next year with another fare increase. All we are talking about is \u20ac70 million. If \u20ac70 million is provided to the NTA in this year's budget, it would remove the need for these public transport fare hikes. It would protect low-income workers from this hit. Why do the financial struggles of workers who take the bus and train not matter to the Government? It found the money to support motorists and hauliers when they needed it. In fact, it found 20 times the amount of money that would be needed to stop these fare hikes. Why is the same concern not being shown to people who take public transport? They are struggling too. They are struggling with the cost of energy. They are struggling with the cost of heating their homes and now, from January, they are going to be struggling with the cost of public transport as well.  This is the T\u00e1naiste's first budget as Minister for Finance. He should not use it to punish people who take the bus and train. He should provide \u20ac70 million extra to the NTA to stop these fare hikes. He should treat public transport users with the same concern as everybody else who gets up early. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I thank Deputy O'Gorman very much. I understand that nobody welcomes a fare increase but we are making a choice here to continue the progress that we have made in public transport because a low fare is no good if there is not a bus. There are a hell of a lot of parts of this country where people are still waiting for bus routes, Local Link services, and where people want to see the roll-out of a better public transport network. I can understand why Deputy O'Gorman says it that it would only cost this to do that - what he says is factually correct - but of course this to do that has to be seen in the context of the other things we need to do as well, which is to provide more bus routes and better public transport. We need to invest in more frequent and more reliable services, and in enough buses so that there is a bus when somebody goes to get the bus. The only factor is not the fare but sometimes whether a person will get a seat or if there is a route. There are parts of this country where public transport is still very much in its infancy and we need to invest significantly in that as well.  There is a context to this. Fares will still be approximately 8% lower than they were eight years ago. That is at a time when the cost of running the services has increased significantly too - that needs to be factored in - and when the network is expanding. The State is increasing its contribution to public transport substantially. It will continue to do so. That should not be dismissed. We are also maintaining a number of other things, some of which the Deputy and I worked on in the previous Government. Free travel for kids aged under nine will remain in place. Children do not pay for public transport in Ireland under the age of nine, which is something we introduced in the previous Government. There are 50% young adult and student fares as well. The companion pass has been expanded to everyone over the age of 70 who can now bring someone with them on public transport for free as well. Crucially, we are going to roll out 140 new and improved services. The fare money is going directly back in to more routes and enhanced routes too, so people using public transport will see the benefits of that too.  Deputy O'Gorman did the thing that lots of people in this House do. Deputy Nash did it a moment ago. \"Why do you like the motorists?\" We have got to stop doing this. This is deliberately ignoring the economic facts available to this House, as is the House's right, but it is not a very honest thing to do. The advice available to the Government, economically, is that the measures we have taken to reduce fuel prices have helped suppress inflation in the Irish economy by an average 0.6%. Therefore, the person getting the bus, train or Luas has benefited in terms of the inflation in our country being around 0.6% lower. They have benefited from that decision when they have gone into the shop. We should not try to ask: \"What about the motorist versus the person getting the bus? What about the person in rural Ireland versus urban Ireland?\" The decisions that we have taken have had a positive impact on suppressing inflation growth in this country. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Roderic O'Gorman  When the NTA came before us in the transport committee last Wednesday, it was very clear that this fare increase is not about delivering extra services next year; this is about providing the exact same level of service this year as last year. Public transport users are getting nothing extra. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  They are wrong. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Roderic O'Gorman  That is what they told us. That is what they said. The T\u00e1naiste says they are wrong. None of the 145 extra routes he is talking about are funded. Again, that is all conditional on decisions coming up before the budget. The NTA did tell us the consequence of this decision. It is 4.5% fewer passengers using public transport next year. That is going to be the consequence and the legacy. The T\u00e1naiste is right: this is about choices and priorities. In the previous Government, the Green Party chose to reduce fares and deliver more services. The Government is choosing to hammer public transport users. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  Deputy O'Gorman is continuing his dogma of trying to pit one part of society against the other. The Government has to do more than one thing at a time. We have to continue to improve public transport and we make absolutely no apology for trying to help people in terms of excise cuts. If it was up to Deputy O'Gorman, he would not reduce the cost of petrol or diesel. In fairness, unlike some, he is very honest in relation to that. We believe people, including in his constituency, need assistance in the here and now as well.  The reason the NTA is wrong is that it is not the sovereign Government of this country. We are. What the sovereign Government of this country will do in 12 days' time is provide clarity in relation to public transport funding for 2027. What I am telling the Deputy is we have made a decision that the fare changes that are being brought about by the NTA, which are effective from next year, will result in a sustainable level of funding that will enable us to significantly expand public transport routes in this country. The people have not chosen the Deputy to be in government. He is not going to misrepresent the record of this Government. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Leaders\u2019 Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_33","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna \u00f3 na Comhalta\u00ed Eile - Other Members\u2019 Questions","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_33","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  Today, I want to discuss capital infrastructure projects and the legacy this Government can and should leave in the State in relation to important project delivery. We must ensure, while doing this, that we give value for money and that our spending is cost effective. I know that as a country we can do it all.  All around us, the largest companies in the world are at a cutting edge. A ten-minute walk from my house, we have one of the most sophisticated semiconductor foundries in Europe. Intel, even with Covid in the background for a period, was able to deliver a multibillion euro plant on time and on budget. Pfizer, with sites in Kildare and Cork, has spent billions, with companies like Amazon and Microsoft building too. This is done with Irish people at the helm - designing, building and overseeing these successful key projects. We need to ensure that the same rigorous application of high standards is shown to State investments. Through good strategic planning, we have seen our economy prosper, wealth being created and our population grow. With that, our infrastructure has become strained and that is why the Government, wisely, has put \u20ac275 billion aside for capital investment in infrastructure over the next ten years.  As a Government, we have also taken positive steps by passing the Critical Infrastructure Act. We have delivered the Accelerating Infrastructure Action Plan, set up the Housing Activation Office and published the detailed national development plan review. We know that we can do things right. The national broadband plan, despite much negativity from the other side of this House, has been a great success. The Luas cross-city extension, which improved public transport in the capital, along with the motorway extensions and bypasses, such as in Tuam and Macroom, have changed people's lives.  We can build and we can deliver but we also need to ensure that the \u20ac275 billion put aside for infrastructural spending is spent well. There must be accountability, oversight and consequences where the relevant State bodies fail to deliver. Be it failures from the initial scoping of the projects, lack of functionality or management overrides, it is not good enough for heads of State projects and CEOs to come before Oireachtas committees such as mine and the Committee of Public Accounts and talk retrospectively about cost overruns and delays in capital infrastructure. Many of them then shrug their shoulders when they come before us in the PAC, blaming those who came before them, which leads ultimately to no accountability. This is why I am highlighting this today. The people of Ireland need to be assured that the highest standards are being followed, that value for money is being sought and that infrastructure is being delivered economically and efficiently. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I thank Deputy Neville for raising this issue. I also thank him for his ongoing work on infrastructure and for being my party's spokesperson on infrastructure. I was pleased that we visited Intel recently in his county. Intel has shown a real vote of confidence in Kildare but also in the Irish economy.  Deputy Neville is right that we are investing an extraordinary amount in capital. More than a quarter of a trillion euro will be spent on infrastructure in this country in the timeline the Deputy outlined.  With that opportunity comes great responsibility to make sure projects are delivered, with value for money to the fore but also with speed and efficiency. There is obviously a cost to the projects not being in place in the here and now. We still live in a country where public infrastructure can be somewhere between 25% and 30% below the EU average. We all know there are real infrastructural choke points in our constituencies and communities, whether it is water, energy, wastewater, transport or social infrastructure such as schools and hospitals and, of course, housing as well.  The Deputy is right to point to the fact that there are a lot of things this country does well. The national broadband plan was pretty much universally opposed by most political parties in this House but people now herald it in their own constituency, are delighted with the connections and are happy to turn up to the events. We backed the national broadband plan. It has come in on budget and it has come in ahead. It has made this country the most connected country in the European Union. It has made rural Ireland, including farmyards, extraordinarily connected as well. It was something nobody else in this place wanted but we backed it and it was the right decision to make.  There have also been times when things have not gone right in relation to infrastructure. The work the Minister, Deputy Jack Chambers, has done deserves great credit in terms of looking at how we can accelerate infrastructure and what we have done as a Government in bringing the private sector in with the public sector. I never buy this idea put forward by some people that the private sector can just run everything. No, the public sector has an important role to play too, but collaboration between the private and public sector can be really good. Bringing in private sector expertise - I think of the likes of Sean O'Driscoll - along with public sector people to sit around a table and ask what we need to accelerate infrastructure delivery has now given us our action plan. We have seen 95% of the commitments already delivered. All 30 actions in the plan actually remain on track.  We have already seen the benefits in speeding it up. There have been 26 weeks saved on the Waterford wastewater treatment plant, which the Minister of State, Deputy Cummins, will be pleased to hear. There have been 26 weeks saved on the Ballymore Eustace to Saggart main water project, Deputy Neville will be pleased to hear. That is due to the removal of external reviews and changes in thresholds within the infrastructure guidelines. We have seen 12 months taken off the greater Dublin drainage project. We have seen timelines for maritime area consents now reduced by 30% for fit bodies. This is already having a really positive effect. The ESB is receiving quicker decisions from An Coimisi\u00fan Plean\u00e1la and well below the statutory timeline of 48 weeks. With MetroLink, we saw the withdraw of the judicial review speeding up the project. We have passed the Critical Infrastructure Act as well. We have a lot of work to do but the reforms in the action plan are beginning to take hold and we have to drive them on every day. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  I thank the T\u00e1naiste for the response. I highlighted this because it is so important. Yesterday, I saw glimpses of it at the infrastructure committee. We had Garret Doocey of the housing activation office talking about the projects it did. I asked for specific timelines and transparency to be put in place so the office can come before us biannually at our committee. It is really important we see it in the Chambers and the committees so we know what is being done. Ultimately, then, we can reassure the public that we are on time and the money is being spent.  At the same time, we had Uisce \u00c9ireann with us and I was able to highlight the issues we have with the water infrastructure in Leixlip. Local businesses put up a post on social media about water infrastructure. The water was out on Sunday and again yesterday. How do you try to run a business in that situation? There is the yin and yang of longer-term projects being run well but we also have to ensure the infrastructure for the current housing and businesses runs properly and well for them. Whether that be cars stuck in traffic or water not working, those issues have to be resolved in our areas too. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I fully agree. The housing activation office and Garret Doocey are doing a very good job, along with the team and the seconding in of people from other State agencies. The Deputy is right that we have allocated a lot of money and communities now want to see those projects delivered quickly. Each of those projects are enablers for housing right across the country as well.  I personally believe there are two ways the Government should operate: the Government should help when it can and get the hell out of the way when it cannot. Infrastructure requires both. We are helping by providing a quarter of a trillion euro in investments but, also, sometimes we need to get out of the way in terms of bureaucracy and red tape - is there anything to be said for another permit, review or body? That is really what the accelerating infrastructure taskforce action plan is about. We help by providing the funding and get out of the way when it comes to far too much bureaucracy and red tape. I have given tangible examples to the House today, on foot of Deputy Neville's question, of where we are already seeing the benefit of speeding up those timelines. We have to keep at that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Before I move to Questions on Policy or Legislation, we are having some technical difficulties with our clock but a minute is a minute. I am still watching. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna \u00f3 na Comhalta\u00ed Eile - Other Members\u2019 Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_34","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Pholasa\u00ed n\u00f3 ar Reachta\u00edocht - Questions on Policy or Legislation","counts":{"speechCount":39,"speakerCount":22},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_34","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Deputies","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jen Cummins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ken O'Flynn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ken-O'Flynn.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ken-O'Flynn.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Erin McGreehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Ward.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Barry-Ward.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Carrigy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Johnny Guirke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Johnny-Guirke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Johnny-Guirke.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Albert Dolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Donnelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Donnelly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-Donnelly.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Kenny.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Martin-Kenny.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Daniel Ennis","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Daniel-Ennis.D.2026-05-25","memberCode":"Daniel-Ennis.D.2026-05-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pearse Doherty  Earlier, we welcomed some of the residents from the Garvaghy Road. It is a very difficult time for them. People are shocked at the prospect of an Orange Order march being forced down the Garvaghy Road this Sunday. I was a teenager when the Orange Order attempted to force marches down the Garvaghy Road many years ago. I remember the images of the fear that was created in that community - the stand-off, the riots and the violence that happened afterwards. Things have moved on so much and thank God they have but it is utter madness that anyone would try to drag us back there.  For 28 years, this community has lived in peace, free from unwanted Orange Order marches being forced through their community. That progress must be protected. Can the T\u00e1naiste tell the D\u00e1il today what engagement the Government will have with the British Government? Will he join with me in expressing support for the Garvaghy Road community and the right to live free from fear and intimidation? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Deputies","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputies  Hear, hear. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I thank the Deputy. I spoke with his party leader on this issue yesterday. I am very much aware of the concerns of residents in the area. I too remember the scenes on our television screens and the likes of the real, painful, traumatic and extraordinarily upsetting and divisive scenes that community lived through and experienced. I am also conscious that we are all working for a better future for this island and a shared island and shared future and, I hope, ultimately, a unified island as well. I need to be mindful in the position I occupy of the independence of the work and role of the Parades Commission and the need for it to be allowed to do its work. I assure the Deputy and the residents that Government officials here are monitoring the situation closely. We have asked our joint secretariat in Belfast to keep us informed of developments. I am pleased the residents of the Garvaghy Road are here with us today. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jen Cummins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jen Cummins  On Monday, Virgin Media will show a documentary about special education in this country. The sneak previews I have seen show there are still children without an appropriate school place. However, equally shocking is that those who do get a place in school are being educated in cleaners' rooms with no windows or natural light, or they are being educated under staircases in classrooms. On top of that, a regulation room in one of the schools shown has been put in a disabled bathroom. Thankfully, the caretaker blocked off the toilet, but this is the state of our education system.  The school I saw is Stapolin Educate Together National School, which is trying its best. When the Minister of State visited it before the end of the previous academic year, he told the school to use all available space, and it is. The school is oversubscribed and could fill two classes. What will this Government do to make sure this is not happening in 2026? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I thank the Deputy for raising the issue and acknowledge her ongoing work on this. I obviously have not seen the programme but I have seen the promotional clips for the programme and I will of course watch the programme and also discuss the matter with the Minister for education and Minister of State with responsibility for special education.  Objectively, we have seen a very significant increase in special classes, with 587 new classes sanctioned for the year. We have seen new classes established in every county. We have seen an increase in the number of special classes by 130% since 2020 and the special education budget is now over \u20ac3 billion. That does not take away from the point the Deputy makes, and I am not endeavouring for it to do that either, in terms of the need for capital to catch up, and the spaces, supports and facilities that our schools need as well. We will have an opportunity to reflect on this further in the budget in 12 days' time but I will watch the programme closely and engage with the Minister on the issues. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mark Wall  I raise with the T\u00e1naiste today the urgent need for additional carriages and hourly train services on the Waterford to Dublin line, which runs through my hometown of Athy. I have been raising this issue for the last number of years and I just want to read to the T\u00e1naiste today from an email I got this morning from Eimear, who at the time was on the 7.15 a.m. Waterford to Heuston service. She said there were 18 people standing in the gap by the doors on the second-last carriage this morning. Two of them were retired people, very unsteady on their feet, who kept stumbling and were struggling to hold onto the train as it moved up and down. They had free travel passes, while Eimear had a tax saver ticket through work. After the train stopped in Newbridge, a further 12 people were standing in the same spaces.  This is happening too often. It is happening too often because there is only one early morning service from my hometown of Athy. So many people have come to live there and that is what is happening regularly. I ask the T\u00e1naiste to request of the Minister for Transport that we get more carriages on that particular line before we have a very serious accident. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I thank the Deputy for raising the issue of the need for additional train carriage capacity serving his hometown of Athy on that Waterford to Dublin line. I thank Eimear for contacting Deputy Wall and providing that live lived experience from a train service this morning.  I will certainly speak with the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, and ask that he engage with Irish Rail on the matter and come back to the Deputy directly. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Seamus Healy  The Israeli genocide in Gaza involves scholasticide, that is, the intentional destruction of the Palestinian education system. Israel University, the last remaining university in Gaza was demolished by the Israeli military. Some 80% of schools have either been damaged or destroyed. Tens of thousands of students, teachers, lecturers and university academics have been murdered. The United Nations Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights has raised what it says is very serious alarm over the systemic destruction of the Palestinian education system. Against that background, is it not shocking that the Government is refusing visas to Palestinian students to study at Irish universities? Surely, on the basis of the Israeli genocide in Gaza and the destruction of the Palestinian education system, visas should be granted to these students, who, against all the odds, have qualified for and have been offered places in Irish Universities. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  The T\u00e1naiste to respond. Please, Deputy. Time is up. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Seamus Healy  I hope he will reverse that decision. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I deplore the ongoing genocidal activities that we are seeing in Palestine. I am conscious, in making these comments, that it is the UN General Assembly's high-level week and that the Taoiseach, the Minister for foreign affairs, the Minister of State, Deputy Richmond, the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, the Minister of State, Deputy Dooley, and a number of other representatives of the Government are present at the United Nations. The Taoiseach, the Minister for foreign affairs and others are prioritising engagements on issues relating to Palestine.  On the specific issue regarding visas for Palestinian students, the Department of Justice is working with the Department of foreign affairs to assist Irish citizens and their families who are affected from an immigration perspective. The Department is also continuing to work with the Department of Health on the Gaza medevac programme. We have responded to humanitarian crises before by establishing programmes to allow people in the State to bring relatives here if they can prove that they can independently support them. The Afghan admissions programme was the most recent of these. There is no special arrangement in place for Palestinian students. No one is proposing the establishment of such a scheme, but we continue to support the Palestinian people in many ways. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ken O'Flynn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ken-O'Flynn.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ken-O'Flynn.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ken O'Flynn  The T\u00e1naiste has said that people want certainty around the new investment accounts and that he wants more young people to get into saving. That includes the tens of thousands of ordinary people who get up early in the morning to go to work. Some of them, luckily enough, have been able to put savings into vehicles like exchange-traded funds. At present, those people are taxed on eight years of those savings, even if they have not sold a thing. They are taxed on something they have not sold as a capital gain. The Department of Finance refers to this as a deemed disposal. The people to whom I refer want two straight answers. First, will they be able to move their savings into these new accounts without paying exit tax? Second, will the T\u00e1naiste and the Department finally scrap the concept of deemed disposals or are they going to continue to kick the can down the road? Deemed disposal is an unfair and uncertain tax. It should not be there at all. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I will make two points. First, in the context of the final detail of the scheme, we will have an opportunity to thrash all of that out in the debate on the Finance Bill post the budget, including how the new accounts will interact with other investment opportunities. I will be happy to consider all of the issues the Deputy raises then.  On deemed disposal, I am on record in this House - I am certainly on the record in lots of places - as stating we need to move beyond deemed disposal. It was of a different time. It was an anti-avoidance measure, so it would be important to replace it. Obviously, we need to still have anti-avoidance measures. How much we can do in this budget will depend on the overall tax package and competing priorities, but I do expect to make some progress on it. The retail investment roadmap I published this summer shows the clear direction of travel in terms of moving beyond deemed disposal. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Erin McGreehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Erin-McGreehan.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Erin McGreehan  Farmers and fishers in County Louth and across the country are being squeezed by rising fuel, fertiliser and fodder costs. These are essential costs, as the T\u00e1naiste knows. A fishing boat cannot go to sea without fuel. A farmer cannot simply skip the buying of winter feed. Rural families depend on their cars, so they feel pressure at work and at home. How is the Government going to continue to support rural communities, farmers and fishers? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I thank Deputy McGreehan for raising this really important and timely issue. The Government is very conscious, as the Deputy is, of the pressure on farmers and fishers and is determined to provide supports. Today, the Ministers, Deputies Heydon and Chambers, will meet. The Taoiseach, the Deputy and I were all at the ploughing last week. We heard very clearly three issues, namely fuel, fodder and fertiliser. I call them the three Fs. There will be support for farmers with fodder and fertiliser. I am pleased to inform the House that we are working to extend the fuel supports scheme for farmers. I expect the details of that to be finalised in a couple of days. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Ward.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Barry-Ward.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Ward  If the T\u00e1naiste or I want to get a Bus \u00c9ireann bus or an Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann train, including a DART, we just turn up at the station, buy a ticket and get on. Wheelchair users cannot do that. There is an expectation that they should give up to 24 hours notice to use an ordinary transport system that is provided and subsidised by the taxpayers of this country. Surely it is not beyond us to provide a better facility for wheelchair users. I acknowledge that there are new DART carriages coming, but they are up to two years away. They will facilitate ease of access, but wheelchair users who are using Bus \u00c9ireann or Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann will still have difficultly getting on and off transport and will still have to give notice in the meantime. They should not have to give notice in this day and age and we should be making sure it is easier for them to use public transport. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Martin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Martin.D.1989-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The Taoiseach  I fully agree with Deputy Ward. I thank him for raising what is an incredibly important issue. I see it in my community and, of course, he also sees it in his, probably most particularly on the DART line. Not to justify it, but this has certainly arisen as a result of a huge disparity in facilities at stations and access points across the country, particularly in the context of the many stations that were designed and built in the Victorian era.  We are absolutely committed to improving accessibility. There has been some clear and tangible progress. Last year, Irish Rail reduced the advanced notice requirement to just one hour at 15 of the busiest stations across the network, covering almost all terminus stations and the majority of assistance requests. There is a specific action in the National Human Rights Strategy for Disabled People 2025-2030. Irish Rail is set to introduce a new passenger assistance management system across the rail network for customers requiring assistance, including those with disabilities, by the end of this year. Briefly, another good example is the new infrastructure, as the Deputy rightly referenced, namely the DART+ fleet, which will arrive next year. Each carriage will have an automatic sliding doorstep that will deploy every time the doors open. This will reduce the platform gap. The Deputy is so right to highlight this, and we should pursue it until it is fully resolved. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mark Ward  I welcome that Government MEPs and Senators are finally starting to speak out about the dangers and harms of nitrous oxide. I hope Government will start supporting my legislation. My Bill is due to undergo pre-legislative scrutiny in November, following a nine-month delay imposed by the Government. In those nine months, we have had 14 cases of spinal cord damage in Beaumont Hospital and \u20ac3 million spent on storage of nitrous oxide canisters seized by customs, a matter which I raised with the T\u00e1naiste at the finance committee. Dublin City Council reports a 490% increase in the number of canisters collected. Some 160,000 canisters end up in waste facilities. Veolia recycled 120,000 canisters last year. There has been 130% increase in the number of people accessing addiction treatment for nitrous oxide and a 900% increase in the number of people discharged from acute hospital services because of nitrous oxide. These figures are stark. They are not mine; they are contained in independent reports. In the absence of any solutions from Government, I ask that it work with me in a tangible way to progress my Bill through the Houses. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  We will work with the Deputy on this. I acknowledge his sincerity and his work on this, as I have said before. This is a serious issue. I would characterise the Government's position slightly differently in the sense that there was some work that was ongoing in relevant Departments. However, the Deputy's legislation will now obviously go to pre-legislative scrutiny. That is an opportunity to put all of this information and evidence together to look at the Bill in the round. Certainly, we have very much an open mind in working with the Deputy constructively on what is a very important issue. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Carrigy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Miche\u00e1l Carrigy  Longford has untapped potential in terms of tourism. A number of projects have been developed to address this. I have been a director of Longford Tourism for the past 14 years. We have established our tourism network and a new strategy website aimed at increasing the awareness of what our county has to offer. Its rich and often untold story forms a backbone of this vision. I thank the Minister of State, Deputy 'Boxer' Moran, who was here earlier, for his support over the years with the formation of the Hidden Heartlands brand name and the work he is doing in the OPW. The Corlea Trackway Visitor Centre and the Corlea Bog Amenity Walk constitute a unique and untapped tourism and heritage site in Longford. We are working hard to promote the world of our heritage and the activities we have to offer, but we need further investment in order to bring to fruition the various projects that have been identified around the country, particularly for this, as I said, unique historical site and amenity that has so much potential in what is already a fantastic place to visit and enjoy. I attended a directors' meeting 10.30 a.m. for Longford Tourism, and we will be holding our annual general meeting at 3 p.m.  When will we seen further investment in this sector and particularly for Corlea bog and trackway as there is a timeline for this to be delivered. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I thank Deputy Carrigy for raising this issue. I must say that Longford is really making big progress in the tourism sector. So many people are now heading to Longford and there are a number of tourism facilities there as well. I thank the Deputy for his work and passion around Corlea and the bog and trackway centre. It is a remarkable piece of our heritage. I share the view that there is real potential to make it a visitor attraction for Longford but also for the wider midlands.  I know the Deputy knows through his work that F\u00e1ilte Ireland has invested \u20ac262,000 into a study on the centre's future development through the just transition fund. I am informed that the work is now nearly complete on that, and this will give the OPW a clear basis for considering the next steps while protecting the Iron Age trackway that makes it such a special area. I am glad the Deputy is keeping a focus on it. I will be very interested to see the options the study comes up with, and the Government will work with the Deputy to advance them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn  I was contacted by a woman whose husband has multiple myeloma. It is a type of blood cancer, and it develops in the plasma cells. She stated that her husband is cold throughout the whole winter. He needs help with the either fuel allowance, which he does not get, or lower fuel prices. Another man contacted me and said that they need two cars to get to work. They have to commute huge distances in extreme traffic every day. His wife is considering staying at home to save the costs on the cars and childcare. They have had no holidays in the past two years. They have good salaries but they are paying everything out. Hardworking people in this country are saying that it is no longer worth it.  I want to invite the T\u00e1naiste to the fuel protest meeting in Moate on Sunday at 5.30 p.m. That meeting is being organised by ordinary hardworking people whose backs are against the wall. In April, this Government made the catastrophic mistake of refusing to talk to these people. Will the T\u00e1naiste learn from that mistake and join us on Sunday? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I thank the Deputy very much for the invitation but I will be working here on the budget in relation to fuel and energy, so I do not need to attend a protest meeting. What I need to do is make sure that people in this country do not feel the need the protest because they feel that we are making policy decisions that will help them.  By the way, I have also spoken to a number of the people who were involved in the fuel protests. I met many of them at the ploughing. I met many people at the ploughing and at the Longford show with Deputy Carrigy as well, including people who were involved in those protests. I met all the farmer representative organisations, the hauliers as recently as yesterday and the trade unions. Fuel and energy is a real issue but what I am saying to people, and I hope they are hearing it, is that we are going to provide clarity in relation to excise. We are looking at carbon tax on both home heating oil and gas. I have just given Deputy McGreehan a view in relation to the extension of the farm support scheme as well. The Government will bring forward a package in the round in relation to the energy situation in the budget in just 12 days' time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Rory Hearne  The T\u00e1naiste is probably well aware that there are thousands of council tenants across this country living in absolutely scandalous conditions with mould and damp. In my constituency, I have been working with a number of harrowing cases. I visited homes and have seen mould and damp on windows and in bedrooms, and the impact on children and babies. How is it right and fair that council tenants living in mouldy and damp conditions in houses that the State is responsible for are now being charged higher rents in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis because the Government has failed to fund councils sufficiently?  Some 40% of council tenants are in poverty after they pay their rent. That is five times the rate of homeowners. How can they afford more? Is it fair that children are left living in mouldy and damp conditions with devastating impacts on their health? Will the T\u00e1naiste make a real move on the cost-of-living crisis for these people, and will he give councils the funding required for maintenance so they do not have to increase rents on these people? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I see the Deputy linked two issues. I see them as somewhat separate. The idea that anyone is living in a home owned by the State that has mould and damp and that children and the likes are there is not an acceptable situation. I fully agree with that. If the Deputy wants to provide me with the information, which I know he will, I am happy to pursue that with the Minister for housing and with the local authority too. Local authorities have a duty of care to their tenants too and just like governments at a national level have to manage their budgets, so too do local governments as well.  In relation to the budget in general, there will be a focus on child poverty. I acknowledge the Deputy was at the child poverty and well-being summit in his constituency in recent weeks. There are a number of targeted measures that we need to take to help families and children most at risk of poverty. The fuel allowance, which opens on Monday, is one such payment but there will be a number of other measures in the budget in 12 days' time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Johnny Guirke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Johnny-Guirke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Johnny-Guirke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Johnny Guirke  Bradley is a 15-year-old boy from my constituency of Meath who is waiting for an urgent orthodontist appointment in Navan, and he is not the only one. Bradley suffers from a severe jawbone condition that requires urgent uninterrupted orthodontic care. For over two years he has endured immense pain, endless procedural cycles and days where he could not even eat solid food. Last October was a milestone when his top brace went on but then the HSE system failed him. His orthodontist went out on unexpected leave and no replacement was provided. When a critical appliance broke in his mouth in July, it took two weeks just to get a cursory glance, only to be told no one else would touch his case. Bradley has now gone seven months without treatment. He is sitting right now with loose braces and useless blocks in his mouth. If his treatment backtracks, he faces a traumatic, preventable operation to break both of his jawbones. Can the T\u00e1naiste give me a cast-iron guarantee that Bradley and other children in Meath will urgently be provided with the orthodontist services they badly need? Both the T\u00e1naiste and I know this is not right. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I thank Deputy Guirke for raising this issue. I am sorry to hear what Bradley and his family are enduring. I am not going to comment into the record of the D\u00e1il on an individual case on which I do not have all of the information but the Deputy is entirely right to highlight the issue in relation to the orthodontic system and care in his constituency. On foot of him raising it, I will send a transcript of what he said, plus a broader query, to the Minister for Health and to the HSE and ask that they come back to the Deputy directly. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Albert Dolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Albert Dolan  There are families in east Galway right now who are really worried because they cannot afford the cost of putting a fill of oil in the tank this winter. The reality is that the Government reduced the price on diesel and petrol but it is fair to say that it has not done anything yet to help families with the cost of home heating oil.  In this budget there needs to be a serious measure put in place to support the families that I represent in Galway to get through this winter because the price has completely ballooned. I ask that serious consideration be given to that and that supports be put in place. Also, there are families who have paid huge sums of money in the past month or so to fill a tank. Consideration needs to be given to backdating any payment or any support that goes in place for home heating oil because families cannot decide when the tank becomes empty and they have to fill it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I thank Deputy Dolan for raising the issue. He is right on the broader issue. When you look at the cost of energy, it has risen across the board, of that there is no doubt. However, when you look at the cost to fill a home heating oil tank, it has risen in quite an alarming manner. Roughly speaking, it was \u20ac950 to fill the tank last winter. It is anywhere between \u20ac1,500, \u20ac1,600, \u20ac1,700 and rising to fill the tank this winter. This is an extraordinary rise for families.  We are working through this as a Government together. The details will be published on budget day but the Tax Strategy Group paper does identify that we can treat carbon differently on different products. Regarding kerosene, there may be something we can do in that space. What we cannot do is do anything that risks our derogation in relation to the emissions trading system, ETS, because we do not want to end up paying billions more to Europe as a consequence of this too. There obviously will be some people who will be disproportionately more at risk of fuel poverty, and the fuel allowance system is part of that. We need to look at all of this in the round but we will endeavour to respond. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Donnelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Donnelly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-Donnelly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Donnelly  I have attended meetings with local residents, councillors and TDs from every party about the world famous Dunsink Observatory. The Dunsink urban plan will see a new town built that will have a bigger population than Longford and there are serious concerns. Even though every person we met wants to see housing on the site, there are serious concerns. Promises of new bus and Luas services are met with deep scepticism and concern, even from the National Transport Authority, NTA. Irish Water stated that there is no chance of phase 1 or 2 being completed without the Shannon pipeline at a cost of over \u20ac7.5 billion.  Dunsink Observatory is currently working towards UNESCO world heritage status. This will have serious implications for the density and heights adjacent to the observatory. We cannot have a massive development like this being developer-led. It must be State led. Would the Government support a local authority, cross-departmental and inter-agency team to oversee this development to ensure we do not make the mistakes of the past and that we see the environment and biodiversity protected, as well as public transport, water, schools, etc., put in place as the homes are being developed? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I thank Deputy Donnelly for highlighting this issue in relation to the Dunsink Observatory and the views of the community there as well.  My understanding is that the public consultation process has concluded. The local authority is duty bound to consider all of that feedback. From what the Deputy says, it sounds like it has received quite a lot. It will then be for the local authority to come forward with the next steps. The Government stands ready to assist in any kind of modality or with suggestions the local authority might make as to how best to consider these matters. We await the next decision from the local authority. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Kenny.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Martin-Kenny.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Martin Kenny  We have a serious issue in the north west in regard to transport infrastructure. The issue of infrastructure has been raised by many Members and the T\u00e1naiste has given commitments in regard to critical infrastructure. The western rail corridor is a particularly critical piece of infrastructure for the centres of population from Sligo right down along the western seaboard. It is welcome that the part from Athenry to Claremorris is now going to be developed. Work is progressing on that. However, in the context of the next leg, which goes right the way up to Sligo and past the international airport at Knock, it is being proposed at the moment that a cycleway be put in place. Transport infrastructure is vital. A cycleway is nice to have and nobody has a problem with it if is adjacent to the rail line, but it certainly should not block progress in regard to building a rail corridor which will provide essential transport for people from Sligo all the way down to Galway and further afield. People have to go for cancer treatment to Galway because the cancer services in Sligo were closed down. In fairness, people are saying that they cannot go for treatment on bicycles. They need proper transport, and we need to have a commitment from Government that what I am referring to will be done. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I thank Deputy Kenny for raising this issue. I am familiar with the greenway issue from my engagement with the Minister of State, Deputy Feighan, and various TDs, including the Deputy, in relation to Sligo. This should not be an either-or situation. Any decision in relation to the greenway needs to preserve the railway. My understanding, from local discussions, is that the greenway will be done in such a way as to preserve the railway line. We have, as the Deputy said, already started on the western rail corridor with the decision on the Athenry to Claremorris leg. We are still committed to the further expansion but in the interim - in the here and now - the greenway can be delivered in a way that preserves the railway line. I am also conscious of the point the Deputy makes more generally about transport in the north west. I welcome the progress that we intend to make on the N17, which will be very much welcomed by the Deputy's constituents too. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  Why is the Government using its Presidency of the European Council to propose a massive undermining of the right of privacy of European citizens? The Irish Presidency has a proposal for the digital omnibus, which is a deregulation agenda in the interests of big tech. What it proposes is that, effectively, GDPR be disapplied when it comes to AI. As a result, the use of personal data will be presumed to be lawful as long as it is being used in terms of AI. This means that what currently would be illegal, which is collecting personal data for advertising, would become legal as long as it is being done under the guise of AI. Why is the Government pushing this deregulation agenda? Why is it pushing a massive giveaway of European citizens' personal data to big-tech corporations? Will the Government stop this and will it defend the right of privacy? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I happened to see some of the news coverage of the committee discussion in relation to this yesterday. I say this very respectfully, but sometimes there is a misrepresentation of the role of the Presidency of the Council of the European Union. It is not an executive function; it is a role to act as an honest broker in terms of bringing forward the various views raised by the 27 member states at meetings, often of officials through Coreper structures and the likes, as well. It is not a position of the Irish Presidency; it is a bringing forward of the feedback from the member states, fulfilling the honest broker role. From an Irish perspective, we take very seriously the need to live in an innovative European Union and an innovative Irish economy in the context of the benefits of AI that are there. We certainly are not in favour of a free-for-all. Far from it. Our view is quite the opposite when it comes to making sure that there are guardrails in place and that there is respect for citizens' rights. Some of the strengths of the European Union have been around having robust structures in place versus what happens in other parts of the world. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Daniel Ennis","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Daniel-Ennis.D.2026-05-25","memberCode":"Daniel-Ennis.D.2026-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Daniel Ennis  The ESRI recently published a report which highlighted the number of children living in households below the poverty line rose to 200,000 in 2024. All the while, this Government boasts about tax surpluses. We are told that the money is being kept aside for a rainy day. For those families and children, it is raining and it is pouring. In my constituency, we see billions running through the IFSC while right next door on Sheriff Street, where my family still lives, there are people who cannot even afford to put food on the table. These levels of widening inequality are not inevitable. They are a choice, and they are a choice being made by the Government. The Government reported a budget surplus of \u20ac23.2 billion in 2024. When we have 200,000 children living below the poverty line, we do not have a budget surplus; we have a bad accountant. What real, targeted and meaningful measures will the Government take in budget 2027 to reduce the scandalous rate of child poverty in this country? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  I thank Deputy Ennis for raising the issue of child poverty and for raising it in a very real way in relation to his community and his constituency, including Sheriff Street and the area he represents in D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann. What I am not going to do is get into a back-and-forth on statistics and reports, etc. The point is that child poverty is still too high. I agree with that. It is true that the ESRI data probably has not yet seen the benefit of some Government measures that we took, most particularly in the previous budget, but that is not the point. No matter what figure one wants to land on, it is too high. I accept that. What measures are we going to take? We will have to take quite a number of them, but the working family payment and child support payments have been a useful way of targeting resources at those most in need. Continued investment in youth services, education and early years education is also really important. There is a child poverty unit in the Department of An Taoiseach. I must say, in a completely non-political way, that officials and experts now working on child poverty are providing advice to Government which is useful and informed. The child poverty and well-being summit, which will also produce a report, will hopefully give good guidance to this House. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Heneghan  I am sure the T\u00e1naiste is aware that a recent poll in The Irish Time s is showing that nearly 90% of people are finding it hard to manage financially. I am hearing directly from families and parents across my constituency that go leor daoine are struggling with bills at home. Many of them are also being asked for voluntary contributions or to hold fundraisers just to keep the local school that their kids are attending afloat in the context of paying for heating, electricity and cleaning. I have introduced legislation on private wires that could help to unlock community energy sharing, as is done in Denmark and Germany. I am also pushing plug-in solar, but that is all I can do. Will the T\u00e1naiste, as the Minister for Finance, ahead of the budget, increase the school capitation grant in order that parents who are already struggling are not forced to go into their own pockets so that their schools can stay afloat? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Simon Harris","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Simon-Harris.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" The T\u00e1naiste  First, I will not jump over the constructive contributions the Deputy has been making on private wires legislation and the likes. I thank him for that and for his expertise and interest in that, which is valuable to Government. We look forward to working with him on that.  The Deputy will understand that frustrating thing I am going to say about not being able to get into every specific of the budget, other than to say that we did increase capitation last year. That was important and was welcomed. We are listening and engaging with the school communities in relation to their funding base. The Minister for education is in talks with the Minister for public expenditure. We will finalise the package which will be revealed here as part of the national budget on 6 October. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna ar Pholasa\u00ed n\u00f3 ar Reachta\u00edocht - Questions on Policy or Legislation"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_35","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Non-Binary and Intersex Recognition Bill 2026: First Stage","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_35","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Frankie Feighan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Frank-Feighan.S.2002-09-12","memberCode":"Frank-Feighan.S.2002-09-12","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruth Coppinger  I move:  That leave be granted to introduce a Bill entitled an Act to provide for the recognition of a non-binary gender and for those born intersex; to amend the Gender Recognition Act 2015 to recognise a non-binary gender; to amend the Interpretation Act 2005 to include a non-binary gender; to amend the Civil Registration Act 2004 to allow qualified informants to record an X on Registers for Births, Stillbirths, Adoptions, and Death; to amend the Equal Status Act 2000 and Employment Equality Act 1998 to outlaw discrimination based on sexual characteristics.  This Bill will give legal rights and recognition to non-binary and intersex people in Ireland. This is obviously a small minority of people but they face extreme invisibility, marginalisation, violence and discrimination. The Bill would essentially do three things. First, it would introduce the option of an X marker on the gender recognition certificate, in addition to M and F for male and female. Without legal recognition, a non-binary person is systematically discriminated against in accessing healthcare, legal documents, passports with their own identity, and more. Second, for a person born with intersex characteristics, it would allow a parent or a qualified informant to put an X on a birth certificate, meaning parents would no longer be forced to immediately choose between male and female, with the very serious consequences that brings. Third, it would give equality before the law and prevent discrimination.  What do we mean by non-binary in the context of this Bill? It refers to any person who identifies outside the binary of male and female. This includes non-binary people but also genderqueer people and anyone who sees themselves as not fitting into a male-female binary. Again, there are not exact figures for the number of non-binary people in Ireland. A serious opportunity was missed by the census, for example. It which could have posed a question around that, which was raised at the time. State Departments in Ireland are not categorising. However, up to 10% and possibly more, of people are LGBTQI in surveys and at least one third would identify as non-binary from that category.  Globally, it is estimated that 2% of people identify their gender in a way that is outside the binary.  What is intersex? People who are intersex are born with innate variations of sex characteristics, including chromosomal, anatomical or hormonal, that vary from the societal or medical understanding of the typically male or female. Approximately one in every 500 babies is born with either ambiguous genitalia or other variations of sex development. It is not an insignificant number. Intersex variations may not be noticeable until puberty, with some variations not noticeable without testing. There are more than 40 different types, which I do not have time to detail. The UN recognises that at least 1.7% of the world population is born with an intersex trait. For comparison, 2% of people globally have green eyes. There may be as many as 90,000 intersex people in Ireland alone.  Intersex identities have been portrayed as a newfangled development. In fact, in all ancient civilisations, there was a recognition of many genders, including two-spirit people in native American culture, Hijra people in India, and the third genders and more depicted in art and literature in Mesopotamia and Asia.  This Bill is important for people's personal lives. I do not have time to read out all the testimonials we received when we announced we would be bringing forward this Bill. It is important as well because medically unnecessary and irreversible surgery is being done on children who are born intersex in this country. The Government should bring in a Bill to ban that practice, which has been banned in many countries, including Malta. It leads to very damaging consequences such as infertility, pain and urinary problems. Ireland has been called out over this on the world stage.  The key reason for bringing forward this Bill is the hostility that LGBTQI people are facing in the world right now. Again, I do not have time to go into all the statistics but we have seen Trump in the US take the X marker off passports and announce there are only two genders. Many people are living in hiding in the US. There are people living in hiding in Ireland as well because they are not able to be comfortable going to their doctor, going to a hospital, getting a passport and doing all the many other things many of us take for granted. Belong To has done some very important research in this regard.  In the time I have left, I want to mention promises that were made by the State. In 2018, after a review of the Gender Recognition Act was undertaken, it was promised that non-binary recognition would be introduced. This Bill would fulfil that promise and answer people's hopes that it will actually be implemented. I have noticed the Taoiseach going on Pride marches and announcing how great it was to do so. Many people who engage with Pride are non-binary or intersex. The Taoiseach must not bow down to any right-wing pressure. The changes we are proposing are very important to people in this country in their daily lives. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Is the Bill opposed? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Frankie Feighan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Frank-Feighan.S.2002-09-12","memberCode":"Frank-Feighan.S.2002-09-12","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation (Deputy Frankie Feighan)  No. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Since this is a Private Members' Bill, Second Stage must, under Standing Orders, be taken in Private Members' time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruth Coppinger  I move: \"That the Bill be taken in Private Members' time.\" "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Cuireadh an D\u00e1il ar fionra\u00ed ar 1.24 p.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 2.05 p.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Sitting suspended at 1.24 p.m. and resumed at 2.05 p.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Non-Binary and Intersex Recognition Bill 2026: First Stage"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_36","debateType":"statement","bill":null,"showAs":"World Pharmacists Week: Statements","counts":{"speechCount":17,"speakerCount":9},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_36","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Cullinane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marie Sherlock","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Albert Dolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gillian Toole","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gillian-Toole.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Gillian-Toole.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Health (Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill)  Tomorrow, we celebrate World Pharmacists Day 2026. Of course, it is World Pharmacists Week. This year's theme, chosen by the International Pharmaceutical Federation, is empowering pharmacists for healthier futures. It is an appropriate theme for Ireland. Over the past year, we have taken significant steps to empower pharmacists to play a broader and more clinical role within our health service. Through new services, new responsibilities and new investment, pharmacy is becoming an even more important part of delivering accessible, patient-centred healthcare.  Pharmacists are a phenomenal asset to, and a fundamental part of, our health infrastructure. Community pharmacies are located right where people live. Some 85% of people live within 5 km of a pharmacy. They are embedded in our communities. They are often the first and easiest place for people to turn for trusted advice and practical support. World Pharmacists Day provides an important opportunity to reflect on the immense value of the pharmacy profession. It is a day to recognise not only the expertise of pharmacists but also their commitment, compassion, professionalism and dedication to patients both within our hospitals and in communities across the country.  In September last year, the landmark community pharmacy agreement was published, following agreement between my Department, the HSE and the Irish Pharmacy Union. The agreement supports commitments to expand pharmacy services, provides new investment in the sector, supports value for money and modernisation, and advances important digital reforms. I welcome to the Public Gallery representatives from the Irish Pharmacy Union. I thank them for their work and collaboration on the agreement.  The progress achieved over the past year demonstrates what can be accomplished when the Government, the HSE and professionals work together with a shared ambition to improve services for patients. These achievements include the common conditions scheme, MediBack for the safe disposal of unused medicines; the medicines optimisation support service; the national condom distribution scheme; health promotion initiatives, including alcohol in pregnancy and men\u2019s health; PPV23 pneumococcal vaccination for eligible individuals; and the promotion of the BowelScreen programme at population level.  The most significant pharmacy reform delivered over the past year, and indeed for some years, has been the introduction of the common conditions service. This landmark initiative has expanded the role of pharmacists in patient care and has made access to treatment faster and more convenient for thousands of people. For the first time, appropriately trained pharmacists can assess and prescribe treatment for a range of common health conditions. The service currently covers eight common conditions, namely, allergic rhinitis, cold sores, conjunctivitis, impetigo, oral thrush, shingles, cystitis and vaginal thrush. This represents a significant advancement in how care is delivered in Ireland by allowing patients to access care quickly and conveniently without the need to secure a GP appointment for every minor illness.  The service was developed in response to recommendations of the expert task force on pharmacy and was formally launched in January. This service brings healthcare closer to people, reduces inconvenience for patients and families and helps to ensure that people receive timely treatment for common conditions. Importantly, it also contributes to the wider objective of improving capacity across the health service. By enabling pharmacists to manage appropriate conditions safely within their scope of practice, the service helps to reduce pressure on other parts of the system while ensuring that patients receive prompt and high-quality care.  The response from the pharmacy profession has been extraordinarily positive. More than 95% of eligible pharmacies are participating in the service, demonstrating a strong commitment across the profession to supporting this important reform. It demonstrates a strong commitment across the profession to supporting the people in their areas, their customers and patients, who will be able to get better access and much more quick access to expert care for common conditions. We now have the opportunity to see how we can drive further with the next set of conditions.  Pharmacists are highly trained professionals with an extensive knowledge of medicines, therapeutics and patient care. The common conditions service allows patients to benefit more fully from the expertise of the person at the centre of their community. For parents caring for a sick child, for workers balancing employment and family responsibilities and for people who may find it difficult to get appointments elsewhere, the service offers a practical and patient-centred alternative.  However, it is not just about convenience. It is about a relationship with trust, it is about accessing expertise and it is about building how we are bringing patient care into every part of every community. Nowhere can that be done better than through the community pharmacy network. The community pharmacy expansion implementation oversight group, which comprises representatives from pharmacy practise, the HSE and pharmacy and medicines regulators, supports the safe implementation of this service. There has been extensive training to deliver the service. I really want to thank pharmacists and their teams, who have leaned into this enormous opportunity to change how healthcare is delivered. With the success of the initial number of conditions, the challenge now is to see how much further we can go. The Department is currently evaluating this formally to see how effectively it has been implemented, where challenges have been encountered by patients, healthcare professionals and, of course, where we might go with the future. I have spoken to a number of people around the country who have availed of this of this service. However, I believe that we are nowhere near the point where people really fully know and are aware that it is available and as more people avail of the service, it will build through word of mouth. Even 12 months from now, we will see this as a much more regular part of the vernacular about how people are accessing care. It is a fantastic place to start. Sometimes we have to start somewhere. I am excited to see how this builds and how we can develop it. It is also part of a broader journey.  I want to highlight is MediBack. A few weeks ago, I was very pleased to announce the rollout of MediBack, a new nationwide unused medicines disposal service. Basically, this service provides patients with a safe, convenient way to return unused or expired medicines to pharmacies for proper disposal. It is so very important. The service helps reduce the risk of accidental harm, supports the responsible management of medicines and contributes to environmental protection. It is hugely significant. It helps to prevent antimicrobial resistance, as I said, safeguard the environment, reduce the risk of falsified medicines entering the black market, lowers the risk of accidental poisoning and supports suicide prevention and self-harm reduction by limiting access to unused medicines. If I look in the back of my cupboard, as I did when this service was introduced, there are out-of-date medicines and things that are no longer necessary. I have a little pile to bring back to my pharmacist. I encourage everybody to look in the back of their medicine cupboards to see what they can bring back to their pharmacist, if only for environmental protection apart from protection of their families and households from accidental poisoning or taking expired medicines that are not safe. People should look at the back of their cupboards to see what they can bring back to their pharmacist who is there to support them. The service also supports Ireland's One Health objectives by trying to protect people, animals and the environment from the risks associated with inappropriate storage or disposal of medicines. We know this is a massive environmental issue. Both the National Hazardous Waste Management Plan 2021-2027 issued by the Environmental Protection Agency and the Community Pharmacy Agreement 2025 identified the establishment of such a nationwide disposal service as a priority. Every pharmacy that signs up to the community pharmacy agreement is required to provide MediBack free to the public. MediBack also aligns with the objectives of Sl\u00e1intecare by promoting patient safety, improving environmental sustainability and generating evidence to inform future service improvement. The Department, the Irish Pharmacy Union, IPU, and the HSE are currently developing the evaluation arrangement for the service. That evaluation will provide a valuable opportunity to build a clear evidence base on the scale of used and expired medicines in Ireland and over time, the service will give us important information on both the types and volumes of medicines being returned. That information can then help inform future policy on prescribing, including overprescribing and deprescribing, and dispensing practices, including pharmacy and medicines optimisation, antimicrobial resistance and public awareness. It will support a more targeted approach to reducing medicines waste while improving value for money, patient safety and environmental protection. Programmes such as MediBack can operate quietly in the background but they are a really powerful reminder of the broader contribution pharmacists make to society. Pharmacists are not just simply involved in the supply of medicine. They are stewards of medicine throughout their lifecycle, supporting their safe and effective use as well as their responsible disposal. As healthcare systems increasingly focus on sustainability, environmental responsibility and prudent resource management, initiatives such as MediBack become ever more important.  I want to highlight the Health (Provision of Contraception Prescribing Service in Retail Pharmacy Businesses) Act 2026 enabling pharmacists to issue additional prescriptions for some forms of contraception. Patients will be able to seek new prescriptions for short-acting forms of contraception - the progesterone-only and combined hormonal pill patch and ring - throughout the services. Pharmacists, of course, are already able to provide emergency contraception. Needless to say, that will continue. Pharmacists will be enabled to issue repeat prescriptions once a GP prescription has been in place for at least six months, the patient is happy with the form of contraception provided and no additional risk factors concerning side-effects have been identified. That service will be open to women, girls, transgender, non-binary and gender-fluid individuals for whom a suitable form of prescription contraception as prescribed by their doctor for a duration of at least six months. That is going to make a huge difference to the need to attend a GP for renewals. This is possible now through a pharmacy and it is a very important. The service is free of charge for those eligible for the free contraception scheme and it will also be open to private patients who are not eligible for that, subject to a locally determined fee. It really is a fantastic initiative that enables better access for people to conveniently do more with the pharmacy. Now that President Connolly has signed the Bill and it has been accordingly enacted, the next steps are to prepare secondary legislation to enable the training and clinical aspects of the scheme. The drafting of those statutory instruments is ongoing.  I want to thank all the pharmacists right around the country for the way in which they support the patients in their community. I thank them for the trust that they have developed with their community. I thank them for their expertise and professionalism and the way in which they use their expertise in a gentle, careful way to support the people who need them, often at very difficult moments, and support them in an ongoing way help to help manage their conditions over time. I wish every pharmacist in the country a happy World Pharmacists Day and a productive week next week. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Cullinane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy David Cullinane  I welcome the opportunity to speak today. I thank the Minister for her contribution. Pharmacists are medicines experts and are among the most accessible health professionals in the State. There are approximately 1,900 community pharmacies providing around 2 million visits every week. Their role has evolved well beyond dispensing and medicines management. Community pharmacies are now involved in prescribing for common conditions, vaccination and wider public health work. Hospital pharmacies are also central to safe and effective medicines use and patient-centred clinical pharmacies where patients have more complex needs. The key point is that we need to use pharmacists to their full potential and integrate pharmacies further into community care. That can improve access, strengthen prevention and medicine safety and reduce avoidable pressure on GPs and acute hospitals.  The community pharmacy agreement and the common condition service have been important steps. The common condition service is an important development in pharmacy care and one for which Sinn F\u00e9in has advocated. It allows pharmacists to prescribe, on a protocol basis, for eight common conditions, but the work of pharmacy reform is far from complete. The common conditions service still falls far short of universal healthcare because consultation fees are not covered for patients, including medical card holders. Prescribed medicines may be covered in the normal way but the consultation fee itself still has to be paid. If we want to direct more care into appropriate alternatives to GP visits and hospitals, the cost of doing that should not simply be transferred to patients. Government should publish the cost of making essential pharmacy care freely available on the same basis as GP care. More broadly, reducing pharmacy costs for patients should form part of the Sl\u00e1intecare roadmap. This should include reducing the drugs payment scheme threshold, adding more medicines to the reimbursement list and reforming the GP visit card so that it takes into account other elements of primary care, including pharmacy and dental services. The next step is to make greater use of community pharmacies in chronic disease management and proactive health checks. Pharmacists are still not formally integrated into existing chronic disease management teams. There is scope for a greater role in targeted cardiovascular screening, blood pressure checks, diabetes and cholesterol checks and wider screening and prevention.  We in Sinn F\u00e9in have proposed a role for community pharmacy in integrated and targeted cardiovascular health screening and management for people at highest risk of cardiovascular disease.  Vaccination through pharmacies can also be expanded, including targeted free access to vaccines such as the shingles vaccine. I have read recently that there might be some movement on that issue. It might be something that will be included in the budget, if the media reports are right. I am supportive of a shingles vaccine. I know we have to start somewhere, and a start would be welcome. If is the case that it is in the budget, that would be welcome. Shingles and respiratory syncytial virus, RSV, vaccines targeting those most vulnerable would be really helpful and pharmacists have a role to play there as well.  We also need to move towards a full pharmacy prescribing model, within each pharmacist's accredited scope of confidence. The expert task force recommended independent, autonomous, prescriptive authority. At present, pharmacists are limited to protocol-based prescribing for eight conditions. The legislation is in place to support the wider prescribing role but it has not been implemented in full. Expanding the role of pharmacy also requires proper workforce planning. Pharmacists have identified increased workloads, administrative burdens and workforce shortages such as barriers to delivering better care. The wider health service continues to suffer from a lack of strategic workforce planning and underinvestment in training places. Students are also facing exceptionally high points requirements because of the limited number of higher education places, despite the need to train more pharmacists domestically. We need to rejig workforce planning for both community and hospital pharmacy.  The South East Technological University, SETU, and University Hospital Waterford partnership is, I think, a good example of the value of regional training hubs. It brings together hospital practice, education and placement, postgraduate training, research and workforce development. Pharmacy already plays a much wider role in healthcare than simply dispensing medicines. The next phase is to build on the community pharmacy agreement and the common conditions service, and moving to universal healthcare must include pharmacy care. That means integrating pharmacy further into primary care, reducing financial barriers for patients, expanding its role in chronic disease management, screening and vaccination, implementing wider prescribing within pharmacists' accredited competence and ensuring the workforce and training capacities are there to support those reforms.  I also want to welcome the visitors in the Public Gallery from the Irish Pharmacy Union, IPU. I commend all of those community pharmacists and those who work for them for the role they play in primary and community care more generally. We obviously look forward to continuing to support the evolution of the role that pharmacists play in healthcare, including in primary and community care more generally. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  I wish to thank the pharmacists for everything they do. Pharmacists play a crucial role within our health services and our primary care system. Within communities, they provide a vital service, often as part of a first call if a person is feeling unwell. They often help in a failing health system where patients are subjected to huge waiting lists for primary and clinical care. The role pharmacists play and the services they offer have developed over the years, especially in more recent years as we have sought to address shortcomings within our primary care system.  Universal healthcare, in my opinion, necessitates pharmacy care. Going by my own engagement with pharmacists, whether as a patient or as a public representative, there seems to be consistent willingness to provide enhanced services and assist in any regard in which they are fully capable and qualified. They just need sufficient engagement, appropriate supports and fair compensation in terms of logistics of delivery. Of course, pharmacists are always invaluable in our hospitals, helping to ensure that medicines are used safely and effectively as outlined by my colleague, Deputy Cullinane, through the example of the 2026 SETU and University Hospital Waterford partnership. They are, however, underutilised and, regretfully, sometimes underengaged and not sufficiently consulted by the Government on matters that significantly impact their ability to best serve their communities.  In terms of underutilisation, I am not sure I ever encountered an issue where pharmacists or their representatives were unwilling to engage and discuss how they could provide additional and enhanced services. However, there seems to be an emerging trend, particularly in recent years, where what I would view as positive announcements were made but someone forgot to work out the detail of how that service would be delivered and sometimes forgot to talk to the pharmacists. Who was that person who forgot to talk to the pharmacists? If they did talk, they did not listen. A perfect example was the free hormone replacement therapy, HRT, system. I welcomed the scheme and I commend the Minister for her part in developing it in principle and shepherding it through her Department, the Cabinet and so on, but there seemed to be a major disconnect somewhere along the line with regard to realising that, perhaps, the pharmacists who would actually administer the scheme might have some thoughts or needs with respect to its operation. The Minister may laugh but did she consult the pharmacists? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill  I do not think the Deputy has----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  Later on, we saw a similar situation in regard to the blister packs. Did the Minister consult the pharmacists? The free contraception scheme is another very positive scheme that our pharmacists are crucial in the delivery of. I have raised with the Minister on a number of occasions the need to significantly increase the upper age threshold for eligibility. Has the Minister increased that age? The scheme was first introduced in 2022 and limited to those aged 17 to 32. The increase to 35 in 2024 was woefully inadequate. Now, in 2026, we are still in the same place. Is the Minister going to tell me today that she is going to increase the age from 32? It still has not happened. At this pace of roll-out, it will take far too long before it is open to all who should be able to avail of it. I am certain that our pharmacists can and would willingly support this delivery but has it happened? I am not aware of any concerns in regard to the logistics of the appropriately expanded service but if there are, I am confident that the Minister could talk to the pharmacists about this and work it out with them. Has the Minister worked it out with them? If the Minister is really eager, she would be willing to work with the pharmacists and ensure that everybody over 32 years of age is able to get free contraception. Otherwise, the only explanation is a lack of political will on the part of Government.  As we mark World Pharmacists Week and recognise the significant value that our own pharmacists provide for all our communities, we have a few good points that the Government should take away from today. Yes, it should continue to deliver worthwhile initiatives and I am certain that it will find a very willing partnership in our pharmacists. Let our starting point be viewing them always as crucial and primary partners in primary care. Seek their opinion and expertise at as early a stage as practicable and hear out their concerns in their own capacity to deliver these initiatives. Crucially, hear out what supports might be needed. With that, we can best ensure that policies can succeed in moving from the theory of policy papers to the practical reality that pharmacies delivering primary care services can do better within their communities. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy P\u00e1draig Rice  I apologise to the Minister. I missed her opening statement. I was down at the Traveller committee, where we are looking at the health report produced by the committee, which shows damning findings and extreme levels of health inequalities faced by our Travellers as a result of racism, discrimination and neglect. It was welcome that the two junior Ministers engaged on that issue but I think it would be good, at some point, for the Minister to engage with that report as well. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill  I met Pavee Point recently. I will. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy P\u00e1draig Rice  Yes. We might engage as a committee on that because a substantial amount of work and hearings went into that report.  That brings me to the point I made previously. We get a lot of statements on the D\u00e1il floor in relation to many issues. We had statements on pharmacy-related issues not too long ago but there are lots of other health issues.  I see this in my work as Chair of the health committee. We get such a number of requests on different issues from Government and Opposition members to discuss particular topics. We probably have about ten requests for every single session of the health committee. One of the challenges I have is trying to get as many of those in as I can. As such, there is a long list of issues that warrant teasing out on the D\u00e1il floor and enough time at the committee and I would welcome some kind of engagement on the topics we could discuss here. Our group and other groups put forward issues at Whips' and D\u00e1il business meetings but they do not often make it onto the agenda. It would be good to engage on some of those and also some of the legislative priorities. We engaged over a year ago on the assisted human reproduction Bill. We were told at the time it was urgent, it was coming and was pressing and the committee rushed our consideration over the summer. We worked over August to do that report and a year on we still do not have legislation. My point is just that this D\u00e1il time is really precious and valuable and there are pressing legislative priorities the Minister and I share but I would like to see some of that time dedicated to those, including the right to healthcare accountability and many other issues that could be addressed, like staffing issues in the health service, funding, CHI - the list goes on. Traveller health is one that, based on that report, needs to make it onto the agenda. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Mark Wall)  Deputy, we have been talking about pharmacists. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy P\u00e1draig Rice  It is a related point about how we decide on statements, what kind of statements we have and the discussions we have. It is an important point because I feel strongly, as a citizen and an elected representative, about this Parliament, how we run the Parliament, how we make it more productive and how we serve the citizens of the State best. It is a great honour to be here to represent people and the time we have here is vitally important. Engagement with a senior Minister on these issues is really important and a Minister's time is very precious as well. It is just a point that maybe we could have dialogue on this at some stage.  On the pharmacists, I acknowledge there has been a real expansion of the services on offer from community pharmacists. The focus is no longer just on a dispensing-based service, which is rightly the core of the clinical model and the very foundation of our pharmacies. We are seeing a move towards a more expansive and integrated model where pharmacists\u2019 expertise is recognised and utilised. The Minister and her predecessor should be acknowledged for their work to expand services in community pharmacies. It is really important we are seeing the expansion of the work that happens in pharmacies. Too often task forces are set up but do not lead to tangible change. This has not been the case with the expert task force to support the expansion of the role of pharmacy. The task force was established in 2023 and published its findings the following year. Since then we have seen pharmacists enabled to extend certain prescriptions for up to 12 months, the introduction of the common conditions service and the passage of a Bill to allow for pharmacists to represcribe certain contraceptives and I understand that the Department is finally on course to appoint its first Chief Pharmaceutical Officer. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Carroll MacNeill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Carroll-MacNeill.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill  It has done so. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Rice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-Rice.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy P\u00e1draig Rice  It has; that is great. There has been some real progress and that should be acknowledged and welcomed by both the Minister and her predecessor. It is important that work is happening and it is good to mark it on World Pharmacists Day.  As we know, Sl\u00e1intecare has a strong emphasis on enhancing public health and prevention and the delivery of an integrated healthcare system. Pharmacists have an important role to play in the delivery of these aims. When it comes to public health and prevention, they are already engaged in health promotion, screening and vaccinations but they are capable of more, particularly in the area of prevention. Take, for example, HIV prevention. There is an urgent need to expand access to PrEP into other clinical and community-based settings. The State\u2019s current PrEP programme is too restrictive. We only have 13 public PrEP services. Of the 26 counties served by the PrEP programme, 16 have no public location to access PrEP, while of the 38 private providers of PrEP 33 are based in Dublin. Community pharmacists are part of the solution to these regional inequalities and we need to expand the breadth of healthcare staff eligible to provide PrEP services, and that includes pharmacists. The Sexual Health Strategy commits to:  Explore and where possible, implement the best ways to enable wider, timely access to PEP, out-of-hours and for people living at a distance from public STI clinics, e.g, through online solutions, availability through pharmacists and primary care services, following necessary legislative change.  Thus it is in the strategy that pharmacists could engage in this work and it would be great to hear from the Minister about where this commitment stands and if any progress has been made since the strategy was published last year. In my capacity as Chair of the health committee I received quite a concerning letter from the Gay Health Network, which represents many of the organisations advocating on sexual health. It said \"...despite repeated engagement over almost two years, the South East remains without a publicly accessible PrEP service\". That is an entire region without access to a public PrEP service in the south east. The Gay Health Network and others have tried to engage with the HSE on this. They have written and I understand they have not received responses. The network said in its letter that \"People living in the South East continue to be denied equitable access to a nationally funded HIV prevention programme that has been available elsewhere in Ireland for several years\". There are therefore real concerns about health inequalities and access to prevention. Pharmacists are part of the solution and that issue in the south east needs to be urgently addressed . There should be engagement with the organisations that have been advocating because to date that has not been adequate. Looking at these issues again is on the draft agenda of the health committee.  The other area we have seen progress is the introduction of the common conditions service, which has certainly been a positive development. This service allows for pharmacists to assess symptoms and prescribe treatment for eight common conditions, including thrush, shingles and cold sores. However, my problem with this service is every patient must pay for it. The consultation fee is not reimbursed by the State, even if you have a medical card. Earlier this year the Irish Independent reported pharmacists are charging between \u20ac30 and \u20ac35for this service and any medicines prescribed comes with an additional cost. I accept the medicine cost can be reimbursable if a patient avails of a HSE community drug scheme and that this new common conditions service is still cheaper than visiting a GP if you do not have a medical card or GP visit card. However, why would anyone with a medical card or GP visit card pay for the common conditions service when they could see their GP for free? This undercuts the main reason for thecommon conditions service, which is to divert people away from overstretched GP services. There is an access issue there that needs to be addressed. When the Irish Pharmacy Union first proposed this scheme it estimated nearly 1 million GP consultations for medical card patients could be dealt with more appropriately by a pharmacist. We all know there is a problem with how overstretched GP services are and there is a solution here to free up GPs and provide better access to the common conditions service for people with medical cards. At a minimum medical card patients should be able to avail of the common conditions service free of charge. That is something the Minister might take away and have a think about.  Last time we were here we talked about contraception and I will take this opportunity to again raise the matter of prescription-free oral contraceptives. As I have said previously, the World Health Organization recommends prescription-free access to oral contraceptives. This includes both combined oral contraceptives and progestogen-only pills. This would still be treated as behind-the-counter pharmacy access requiring eligibility screening by trained pharmacists before being dispensed. We must remember pharmacists are highly trained healthcare professionals and they should be allowed to operate at the top of their licence. Community pharmacists have been providing emergency contraception prescription-free since 2011 and real consideration should be given to extending this to oral contraception. This would make the process faster and easier for women and further alleviate pressure on GPs. It would be particularly beneficial for those who are not eligible for the free contraception scheme as it would reduce the cost. It has been three years since the Irish Pharmacy Union told the Oireachtas health committee: \"There is no clinical reason for oral contraceptives to be supplied only on foot of a prescription; with proper protocols this is a very safe and effective healthcare intervention.\" The previous health committee endorsed that call from the IPU and wrote to the then Minister for Health on it, urging him to allow direct access to oral contraceptives through community pharmacies. I ask the Minister to look at that one as well.  Also on the topic of contraceptives, there is a need to expand the free contraception scheme in the upcoming budget. The scheme is currently available to women aged 17 to 35 but we know from the National Women's Council and others that age is a barrier to accessing that.  In the area of vaccinations, community pharmacists now administer one in every three vaccines under the flu and Covid vaccination programmes but there is scope there for further expansion to utilise those services to the maximum.  I thank all the pharmacists around the country for their work, dedication and for the services they provide. They are a vital part of communities and provide accessible and trusted services to people. They are central to the delivery of an integrated care healthcare system as envisioned under Sl\u00e1intecare. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Keira Keogh  I thank the Minister for being here. I welcome the opportunity to speak during World Pharmacists Day and to recognise the invaluable contribution made by pharmacists across the country, including in my constituency of Mayo. Mayo people will use any excuse to say \"Up Mayo\" these days.  This year's theme is \"Empowering pharmacists for healthier futures\" and it is a fitting reminder of the central role pharmacists play in our healthcare system. They are often the most accessible healthcare professionals in our communities and provide advice, support patients, administer vaccines and ensure the safe use of medicines.  In many rural towns and villages across Mayo, the local pharmacy is a vital front-line health service and a really trusted point of contact for communities.  I recognise the progress that has been made in expanding the role of pharmacists in recent years. Through the Government's common condition service, community pharmacists can assess patients and, where appropriate, prescribe certain prescription-only medicines for a range of common conditions like shingles, impetigo, conjunctivitis, cold sores, allergic rhinitis and uncomplicated urinary tract infections. This means that patients can access treatment more quickly and, in turn, it reduces pressures on our already overburdened GP services and it prevents presentations at accident and emergency departments. Pharmacists also play an important role in supporting women accessing hormone replacement therapy, HRT, with the State now covering the cost of HRT medicines under the national HRT scheme where these treatments have been prescribed by a healthcare professional.  I welcome the upcoming secondary legislation, which I know is being worked on at the moment, to provide regulatory guidance and pharmacist training for the contraceptive prescribing service, which will allow repeat prescriptions for some forms of contraception. This is a really important and welcome move. I think especially of those women who are suffering domestic violence or under coercive control where trying to get a GP appointment might be very difficult or where they might be seen going into the doctor. To be able to go into a local pharmacist and get this is key. These reforms recognise the expertise of pharmacists and demonstrate how empowering them to work at the top of their licence can improve access to care, particularly in rural communities such as those throughout Mayo.  I also really welcome the newly launched MediBack service, which has been online since 26 August. It is another really good and practical example of the important role our community pharmacists are playing. It is providing a safe and convenient way to return unused or expired medicines correctly, which is protecting our environment but also protecting public health and safety. We lost my nana in 2024. One slowly goes through the process of cleaning out the house but we are finding so many unused medications and to be able to pop into the local pharmacy is helpful. It is similar to what we have with batteries where we have the WEEE collection. Now we have somewhere to go with our medicines because it is too easy to throw them in the bin and we do not know the consequences so I remind everybody to check their cabinets this week. I thank the Minister and her Department for their work on that really practical scheme.  I also acknowledge that the demands placed on our pharmacists have increased significantly in recent years because our population is ageing and our healthcare needs are becoming more complex. Pharmacists are taking on an even greater role in preventative care, medicines management and supporting patients to live healthier, longer lives. They consistently demonstrate professionalism and dedication in serving their communities. However, while we are celebrating their contribution, we must also acknowledge the challenges facing them and their struggles. There are a few facing the sector.  The most pressing concern expressed to me by pharmacists in Westport and Newport is the ongoing issue of medicine shortages and stock availability. Despite the calm our pharmacists often offer at the counter, they have told me the true nature of their role, which often involves a lot of stress. To add to that, they are dealing with these significant supply issues where they are sometimes spending valuable time late in the evening trying to source alternative supplies of essential medicines, sometimes contacting prescribers to prescribe something alternative and then trying to reassure concerned patients who cannot access the medications they normally rely upon. This often places additional pressure on already busy pharmacies and can create anxiety, particularly in older people and those managing long-term conditions. I think of one story where a lady was coming in for her regular HRT medication and the pharmacist could not provide it for her, which was stressful for him and for her. This pharmacist told me that at one point, up to 300 basic medicines were not available on his shelves at a particular time and reported that at one stage, he even tried to quarter tablets. That is very stressful. In rural counties such as Mayo, these supply disruptions can have an even greater impact because patients often have to travel significant distances to get to their pharmacist and if we are waiting for the medicine to reach Mayo, that can also add to the delay. Community pharmacists are doing everything possible to manage these shortages but they cannot solve systemic supply chain issues on their own. I was told about that lady with the HRT but also about another mother whose child was diagnosed with ADHD after a long waiting process. She went in to collect the medication but could not get it. I know that these issues are also global in nature, with supply channels being driven by a range of factors and the global demand for medicine does continue to rise with the ageing population and chronic conditions.  I welcome the work that the Minister has done on this. I know there was a new agreement this year. The Irish Pharmacy Union survey for this year is ongoing and we will not see the effects of that just yet but if we look at the Irish Pharmacy Union's 2025 medicine shortages survey, we can see that 57% of pharmacists reported that medicine shortages had significantly increased over the previous 12 months compared with 82% in 2024. However, the overall scale of the problem remains significant, with that 57% of pharmacists still encountering shortages. The survey suggests that shortages might be beginning to level off rather than worsen but it is not lost on me that pharmacists are continuing to spend significant time sourcing alternatives. As such, I really welcome the new framework agreement that was announced earlier this year between the State, the Irish Pharmaceutical Healthcare Association and Medicines for Ireland to govern the pricing and supply of medicines until 2029. I know that this agreement aims to improve patient access to medicine, strengthen medicine supply chains and reduce shortages, encourage the early introduction of generic and bio-similar medicines, and maintain the financial stability of the service. It is in this vein that I welcome the programme for Government commitment to support pharmacists to adopt a proactive approach to managing medicine shortages but the Government must continue working with pharmacists, wholesalers, manufacturers and healthcare providers to strengthen medicine supply chains, improve communication around shortages and ensure that patients can access the medicines that they need when they need them.  We must also continue to support investment in our pharmacy workforce, particularly in rural areas, so that community pharmacists can remain sustainable and continue delivering essential services close to where people live. Today, in advance of World Pharmacists Day, I thank all pharmacists and pharmacy staff across Ireland but especially across Mayo for their dedication to patient care. I do not want to name all the pharmacists in Mayo but there is one very famous tonic. If anybody is starting to have a bit of a sniffle or to come down with something, he or she is not sent in to see the doctor but, rather, down to Tom Treacy's to get his famous tonic. Nobody knows what is in it but apparently it is a cure for everything. I must also mention my own pharmacist Ronan Lally, who has kept me alive in this new crazy political life. I think we can all agree that we Deputies do not have the healthiest of lifestyles and maybe not that much time to go to the GP, so our pharmacists so often keep us alive. With that, I thank pharmacists for their expertise. Their commitment and service have a real impact on the health and well-being of our communities every day. Happy World Pharmacists Day. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Mark Wall)  Too true is right. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marie Sherlock","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Marie-Sherlock.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Marie Sherlock  I am delighted to have the opportunity to speak during statements in advance of World Pharmacists Day. It has been said many times in the Chamber that pharmacists play an extraordinary front-line role in terms of that preventative and community care piece. We know there are over 1,900 community pharmacies across this country. In some ways, they are the unsung heroes of our health system. While there is a lot of focus on our doctors and nurses and other parts of the health service, it is the pharmacists, many of whom run seven-day operations or extended hours, who are at the front line or coalface within our health system. This is particularly true at a time when access to GPs is an issue. The Minister will be fed up listening to me talking about access to GPs and that very real issue that is particularly concentrated in certain parts of this country. In addition, when our hospitals are under enormous strain, it is really critical that we support our pharmacies and our pharmacists to be able to provide as much of that care in the community as possible.  About 2.1 million adults visit a pharmacy every single week in this country, which is a phenomenal figure. An extraordinary proportion of our population is accessing healthcare through something that is on our main streets not hidden away. In that regard, I welcome the progress in the past year with regards to the vaccination service, and BowelScreen in particular. It is great that 1,600 pharmacies have now signed up to the BowelScreen programme. The MediBack issue has been a bugbear for a long time.  People come to me, particularly when a loved one dies, and there is a lot of medication in the house. It is one of those awful parts of having to deal with the situation when somebody passes away - getting rid of the stuff from the house but with nowhere to go. There is the environmental issue but also the awful waste when it is going nowhere. Therefore, it is fantastic that the MediBack system is now there.  I want to raise the need to look at where pharmacies are located across our communities, particularly those communities that do not have as much access to GP care as is possible. The Minister will have heard me talk of this before. In the north inner city, the Dublin 1 area has just over 3,500 people to one GP, whereas the national average is 1,700 to one GP. The reality is that people are much more reliant on their pharmacists for care. In the case of my constituency, there is a population with very complex medical needs. In that regard, we need to look very closely at how we support our pharmacies.  The other key point concerns who turns up at our emergency departments. In particular, I think of the Mater hospital being the local GP for many people in my community. When we look at the national figures, people did not have a GP referral for 72% of emergency department presentations last year. That is a wake-up call in terms of how people are accessing health services. To a much greater extent, they should be relying on GPs but because GPs are not accessible and because people cannot get a timely appointment, they end up going to the emergency department.  I say that in the context that we need to better resource and support our pharmacies, particularly in disadvantaged communities. The deprivation grant was rolled out to GPs a number of years ago, which is certainly very welcome, but it is not going to change anybody\u2019s world. It is a small amount of money but it is an important reflection and indication to those GP services in disadvantaged areas of the work they are doing. It was changed last year, and some GPs in the most deprived areas are no longer getting it, which is an issue I need to take up with the Minister. I have been putting forward parliamentary questions but I am making very little progress with the HSE on finding out who is now getting it. The key point is that there is a deprivation grant. It should be going to the GPs who have the most disadvantaged set of patients. Similarly, we need to see the deprivation grant going to pharmacies as well. Effectively, they are providing a front-line health service in areas where people cannot easily get a GP. The IPU has put a cost on this of somewhere in the region of \u20ac2 million, which is a very small amount, but it would go far in supporting pharmacies in disadvantaged areas.  The other key issue I want to raise concerns prevention and the rollout of vaccinations. We know that community pharmacists play a big role in administering the flu vaccine every year. A source of frustration is the lack of co-ordination with regard to vaccine supplies. Every year, pharmacists contact me to say they have run out of stock, while other pharmacists contact me to ask if I know anyone or any local school that might need the flu vaccine. There is a lack of co-ordination when I talk to the HSE locally about where supplies and stocks are. At a time when we need to be mindful of how money is spent in our health service, it is ridiculous to think that this co-ordination is not there.  Women\u2019s health is obviously a very important issue for the Minister, as it is for me. The contraception prescribing service that will operate from early next year will be wonderful. However, to repeat myself, why is the cut-off at the age of 35? I appreciate that it is about money but the key issue is that this is a really important service for women. We need the Minister, as a woman, to champion this within the health budget. We look forward hopefully to some progress on that.  There are two final issues I want to raise. The first concerns the reports this week on the changes to the drugs payment scheme. A number of people have contacted me who are particularly concerned because the drugs payment scheme has been a lifesaver for them. In a cost-of-living crisis, the prospect that the drugs payment scheme threshold may change is very frightening for people, particularly given what was reported with regard to long-term illnesses, which was some sort of co-payment. As the Minister knows, the list of illnesses on the long-term illness scheme has not changed in donkey\u2019s years and, of course, there is a huge demand to add new illnesses to the scheme. The critical issue for those with long-term illnesses who are not on the long-term illness scheme is that there might be changes to how they pay for their drugs. It is a great concern. I ask the Minister to clarify whether there are changes afoot, given the reports we saw.  We have talked today about community pharmacists. Obviously, there are a lot of pharmacists within hospitals but there are also pharmacists within addiction services. They play an enormous and profoundly important role in the lives of those on a recovery path, particularly with regard to the opiates stabilisation programme. It is important to highlight that a number of sessional pharmacists were taken on in the 1990s and 2000s as a fix. They were taken on on a contract basis, and that has been rolled over every year because there was effectively no space for them to be taken on on a permanent, full-time basis. They have been with the service for many years but they accrue no pension rights. The reality is that they have fought and fought the HSE on this issue but they have made no progress. I will take it up with the Minister on an individual basis but it is important for me to raise their situation on the floor of the D\u00e1il. They have provided a vital service but they feel that lies have been told to them by the HSE. The reality is that people have died without any pension entitlement, particularly death benefits for their families. They have provided a service that is hidden from the rest of society but certainly in the communities I represent, it is a vital service. They feel very much abused and disrespected in the roles they have played. I will take it up with the Minister outside the House. It is important to recognise that the pharmacists we are talking about here today are not just on our main streets, although they are wonderful, but also the ones in silent but really important roles in our health service, keeping people alive. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Albert Dolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Albert Dolan  As we work to mark World Pharmacy Week with World Pharmacists Day tomorrow, I want to thank pharmacists and their teams across Galway East and throughout the country for the work they do every day. In towns and villages across my constituency, the pharmacy is somewhere people know they can turn to. They can walk through the door, speak to someone they trust and get professional advice about something that is worrying them. That might be a parent concerned about a child. It could be somebody adjusting to a new prescription or an older person who needs a little extra time to understand their medication. Those conversations are crucial. The reassurance, patience and personal attention that pharmacists provide make a real difference to people\u2019s lives. I do not think we can ever underestimate that. In rural communities in particular, the value of having that expertise close to home cannot be overstated. Accessing healthcare can mean arranging a lift, taking time off work or travelling a considerable distance. The local pharmacy provides an accessible connection to care. I also acknowledge all of the pharmacy technicians and support staff. Their contribution is essential to the service that patients receive.  There has been meaningful progress in support of this sector, which I welcome. The community pharmacy agreement provides over \u20ac75 million in additional investment across 2025 and 2026, and the common conditions service launched in January is an important expansion of the pharmacists\u2019 clinician role. However, if we want pharmacies to take on greater responsibilities, we must address the pressures they face. I would highlight four of them today. The first is financial sustainability. Pharmacies face rising operating costs, just like other businesses, while carrying significant healthcare responsibilities. Funding must reflect the professional time, staffing and facilities needed to deliver services safely. The second is workforce capacity. New services require trained people and time with patients.  We have to support recruitment, retention and continuing professional development, including for pharmacies that serve rural communities like those I represent in east Galway.  The third is that medical shortages can cause understandable anxiety for patients and create considerable additional work for pharmacists in the context of trying to secure supplies or arrange appropriate alternatives. We need to strengthen co-ordination and ensure that pharmacy teams have timely information and practical support.  The fourth is administration support. I welcome the legislation that will enable greater electronic record-keeping. We need to ensure that it translates into less duplication and more time for patient care. These issues deserve attention because there is considerable potential for pharmacies to do more. I strongly support making the pharmacy the first port of call for a wider range of appropriate healthcare needs. The common conditions service already enables pharmacists to assess and treat eight specified conditions under approved clinical protocols. This highlights that more than 90% of pharmacies are delivering it. That gives us a strong foundation. The planned evaluation should examine patients' experiences, access and outcomes and help identify where these services can safely expand. We need to be ambitious about the next stage. That will be absolutely crucial for patients because being able to receive appropriate care locally can mean getting a problem assessed sooner. It can also help free up GP capacity for people who need the services of a doctor. Knowing when to refer somebody on is central to the pharmacist's role. Expansion should strengthen co-operation between pharmacists, GPs and healthcare professionals, with clear referral pathways and better communication for everyone.  I also welcome the legislation that enables pharmacists to prescribe contraception. Its implementation offers an opportunity to make care more accessible and convenient for women. We should ensure that participating pharmacies are supported and that women understand how to access this service and receive all the support they require.  The new medicines optimisation service is another important development. People managing several medicines, particularly vulnerable patients, can benefit from support to understand their treatment and take medicines correctly. We should build on that work, including through better co-ordination when someone leaves hospital with changes to their medication. That is really important.  There is also significant scope for pharmacies to play a greater role in education and prevention. Vaccination, smoking cessation, blood pressure checks and support to participate in screening programmes are all areas in respect of which accessible community care can make a difference. I have just come from a meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts at which representatives from the HSE discussed with us the money that is being spent. The one thing everyone continues to agree on is the need to move care out to the community in order to free up space, capacity and theatres within our hospitals such that people will get preventative care as close to home as possible and do not end up in emergency departments.  I would like to see a clear plan for the next phase of expansion that sets out: the services to be developed; the training and funding that will be required; and how rural communities like those in east Galway will benefit. Public awareness has to be part of such a plan. People need to know what their pharmacy can offer, when to use it and what changes may apply. Affordability for patients has to be considered at every step. Pharmacists should be closely involved in shaping this work. It goes without saying that whatever the next phase of expanding the pharmacist's role in our communities is, they must be consulted and engaged.  I again thank our pharmacists and pharmacy teams right across east Galway and the remainder of the country. They have earned the trust of their communities through years of personal service. We should recognise that contribution by supporting them to use their skills more fully and deliver more care close to home. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gillian Toole","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gillian-Toole.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Gillian-Toole.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Gillian Toole  Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an Aire St\u00e1it, an Teachta Murnane O\u2019Connor agus an tAire, an Teachta, Carroll MacNeill at\u00e1 imithe anois.  This is indeed a wonderful day. We are empowering pharmacists for healthier futures. There is a massive opportunity, as others have said, to capitalise on that. I thank the Minister of State and the Minister, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, their teams in the Department, the task force, the Health Service Executive, the Irish Pharmacy Union - present in the Gallery are President Ms Caoimhe McAuley and her team - and all of the people who work in hospitals, community pharmacies and the industry in general throughout the country for the massive contribution that has been made over the years.  The Minister of State and the Minister recognise the valuable contribution pharmacists make to people's health, consistently delivering new initiatives and being able, professional, proficient, efficient and willing to rise to any challenges or opportunities that arise. Probably the most salient development that will be of benefit in the context of the safety of patients, but also from the perspective of the Exchequer, is that relating to the medicines optimisation scheme. We have the common conditions service, MediBack and the very worthwhile, softer and more social service available that is the safe pharmacy programme, a facility for anyone experiencing domestic violence to present at a community pharmacy and receive the support of a properly and appropriately trained team. Pharmacists also have a health promotion role, involvement in bowel screening and will soon be able to prescribe contraceptives.  I will pick up on a point made by Deputy Cullinane about the potential for chronic disease projects going forward. That is something the Irish Pharmacy Union and Healthy Meath rolled out about three or four years ago. IT went down exceptionally well and the pilot has been carried out. With both the Minister of State's support and funding, that is something which would be almost ready to be rolled out nationally.  Pharmacists are also especially important in areas of social deprivation and disadvantage. Deputy Rice mentioned the Travelling community, In Navan, County Meath, pharmacists play a supportive role across the areas of addiction, compliance in respect of medicines and general family support. That should be recognised.  There is also a soft and social role for pharmacists in the support of older people in terms of health literacy and - a simple point - loneliness. We know from a 2023 report that 20% of Ireland's population reported that they experience loneliness. That compares with an EU average of 13%. Again, that feeds into the customer satisfaction rating of approximately 98% for community pharmacies.  Everything else has already been said, so I will not duplicate anything. My recommendation to the Minister of State is to maintain the momentum and to continue to invest and provide appropriate resources. Pharmacists will provide more services to communities. That will increase healthcare capacity and play an even greater role in meeting people's healthcare needs.  I draw the Minister of State's attention to the IPU's submission for budget 2027. Every proposal it contains would deliver a significant return on investment, not solely in a monetary sense but also in the context of the safety of the healthcare that is provided to members of the public. It would also have a benefit for the Exchequer, but the key aspect is safety. It would present an opportunity, in exchange for a very small investment, to gain a massive amount for healthcare. That has already been demonstrated by the Minister of State's willingness to negotiate a very robust community pharmacy agreement. The potential to expand on that is effectively limitless.  We are dealing with a community of people. I call it a community because the people involved in pharmacy across the three different disciplines are committed, efficient, professional and trained to the highest standards. This goes back to the retail experience in particular. If the door is open, you take whatever challenge comes at you. You try to meet the needs of people where they are at. That is even done in the context of medicine shortages, and often the customer never knows that there is a crisis happening in the background. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"World Pharmacists Week: Statements"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_37","debateType":"topical","bill":null,"showAs":"\u00c1bhair Shaincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Matters","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_37","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  I wish to advise the House of the following matters in respect of which notice has been given under Standing Order 39 and the name of the Member in each case:  Deputy Emer Currie - To discuss the abolition of the deemed disposal rule.  Deputy Shane Moynihan - To discuss provision of reading classes and schools for children with dyslexia and additional literacy needs.  Deputy Duncan Smith - To discuss the loss of the remains or partial remains of unidentified bodies.  Deputy Louise O'Reilly - To discuss the need for EV charging infrastructure to be located in developments.  Deputy Gary Gannon - To discuss the development of intergenerational community hubs.  Deputy Malcolm Byrne - To discuss the need for improvements to the Dublin to Rosslare rail line.  Deputies Richard Boyd Barrett and Paul Murphy - To discuss the upcoming Ireland-Israel football match.  Deputy P\u00e1draig Rice - To discuss the repression of the LGBTQ+ community in Turkey.  Deputies Denise Mitchell, Tom Brabazon, Naoise \u00d3 Muir\u00ed, Cian O'Callaghan and Barry Heneghan - To discuss support for the Moatview Early Education Centre.  Deputy Jennifer Whitmore - To discuss the provision of permanent SEN classrooms for Kilcoole Primary School.  Deputy Mark Wall - To discuss the provision of additional special school places in County Kildare.  The matters raised by Deputies Emer Currie, Jennifer Whitmore, Shane Moynihan, Mark Wall and Malcolm Byrne have been selected for discussion. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"\u00c1bhair Shaincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Matters"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_38","debateType":"statement","bill":null,"showAs":"World Pharmacists Day: Statements (Resumed)","counts":{"speechCount":2,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_38","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Murnane O'Connor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Murnane O'Connor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor)  I thank Deputy Toole for her very informative contribution. I know she has expertise in this area. I thank her for her commitment and the work she does. I thank the Members of the House for their contributions. I also thank our hospital and community pharmacists for their work in delivering the significant reforms we have seen across Irish pharmacy over recent months and years.  Every day, pharmacists provide safe and effective medicines, care and support for patients managing their health. They deliver trusted healthcare advice and services in communities and hospitals throughout the country. Today's discussion has highlighted how significantly the profession has evolved in recent years. When we speak about pharmacy today, we are speaking about much more than the supply of medicines; we are speaking about highly-skilled healthcare professionals who are providing clinical care, supporting disease prevention, promoting public health, improving access to services and helping people to manage their health closer to home. Across the community and hospital settings pharmacists are making an increasingly important contribution to patient care. They are among the most trusted and accessible healthcare professionals in Ireland. Every day, they support patients, families and communities through their expertise, professionalism and commitment to high-quality care.  We are seeing important development throughout hospital pharmacies. The advanced specialty pharmacist role introduced in September 2024, recognised the expertise and increasingly specialised contribution of senior hospital pharmacists. The first appointment was made in 2025, with a ward specialist pharmacist providing expert clinical pharmacy and medicine optimisation advice in areas such as oncology, intensive care and paediatrics. The expert taskforce has recommended that we build on these expertise through the development over the coming years of models of pharmacists prescribing in hospital settings, supported by the necessary clinical and regulated enablers. This represents another important opportunity to make better use of pharmacists' expertise to support patients and the wider health service.  We have also seen substantial progress in community pharmacies. Over the past year, community pharmacists have successfully delivered a range of new services in addition to their core role in dispensing medicines, counselling patients, and supporting the safe and appropriate use of medicines.  Pharmacy continues to evolve, with pharmacists playing an increasingly important role in medicine optimisation, disease prevention, vaccination programmes and the delivery of new patient services. Almost exactly a year on from the community pharmacy agreement 2025, several new pharmacy services have been reformed and introduced over the past year, demonstrating what can be achieved when Government, the health service and professionals work together with a shared ambition to improve services for patients. Most importantly, these reforms are delivering real benefit for patients such as faster access to care, more services closer to home and better use of the skills and expertise of the pharmacists. I acknowledge the commitment and collaboration of pharmacists, the HSE, our regulator, the Pharmaceutical Society of Ireland, the Irish Pharmacy Union and our wider healthcare partners in making progress possible. These developments reflect the expanding role of pharmacy within the health service and demonstrates the Government's commitment to delivering faster care closer to home, improving access for patients, and reducing pressures across the wider health service.  Ireland faces significant healthcare challenges in the year ahead. An ageing population, increasing levels of chronic disease, and growing demand for services will require all healthcare professionals to contribute to the fullest extent of their knowledge, skills and expertise. Pharmacists will be central to meeting those challenges. Our work does not stop with what has already been delivered. The recent appointment of the chief pharmaceutical officer in the Department of Health demonstrates the Government's commitment to strengthening the role of pharmacy in healthcare delivery. As healthcare needs continue to evolve, pharmacists will remain central to improving access to care, supporting public health and helping people to achieve better health outcomes throughout Ireland.  The chief pharmaceutical officer will provide strategic leadership and evidence-based advice to support the continued evaluation of pharmacy and pharmaceutical care in Ireland. In the near future, another important pharmacy service, the contraception prescribing service, will be introduced. This service will enable pharmacists to provide prescriptions for specific forms of contraception to women aged 17 years and over, following an initial prescription. The primary legislation to enable this service, the Health (Provision of Contraceptive Prescribing Service in Retail Pharmacy Business) Act 2026, has been signed into law. Work is ongoing on the necessary secondary legislation. Patients aged 17 to 35, who qualify for free contraceptive schemes, will also be able to avail of free pharmacist consultations, prescription extensions through the contraception prescribing services. I want us to continue creating conditions in which pharmacists can practice at the top of their profession, supported by appropriate governance, education, digital integration and multidisciplinary working. I want to see pharmacists continue to play an expanding role in prevention, chronic disease management, and the delivery of care closer to home.  Pharmacists make an important contribution to pharmaceutical care, better patient outcomes, and the strength and resilience of our health service. The Government is committed to ensuring that contribution continues to grow. That ambition is consistent with the vision of Sl\u00e1intecare, a health service that is more accessible, integrated and centred on the needs of patients. We have listened carefully to the issues raised in the House today and I thank Members for their thoughtful contributions.  To every pharmacist, pharmacy technician, pharmacy team member, educator, researcher and leader working across our health services, I express my sincere thanks for your dedication and commitment. The future of healthcare in Ireland will depend on making the best possible use of the talents of all of our healthcare professionals. Pharmacists have demonstrated time and again that they are ready to meet that challenge. There is so much that has already been achieved but there is also much more we can do. By continuing to work together, we can support pharmacists to make the fullest possible contribution to patient care and build a more accessible, responsive and sustainable health service. Every patient benefits from this change. I look forward to continuing that work with the pharmacy professions, healthcare partners and the Members of this House for the benefit of patients and communities across Ireland. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  That concludes statements on World Pharmacists Day. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"World Pharmacists Day: Statements (Resumed)"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_39","debateType":"topical","bill":null,"showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":false,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_39","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_40","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Financial Services","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_39","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_39","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_40","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Currie","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Currie","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Emer Currie  I welcome the T\u00e1naiste\u2019s initiative to introduce personal investment accounts. I am on the record of the House saying that quite a bit. It is great. This can play an important role in encouraging more people to move from traditional savings into long-term investment and to build wealth over time. Irish households are strong savers and giving people greater choice and a straightforward framework for investing is welcome. As we create a new framework for future investors, however, we also need to address the problems faced by people who have already invested. That brings me to deemed disposal.  I have consistently called for the abolition of the deemed disposal rule on exchange-traded funds, ETFs, and other investment products, subject to investment undertaking tax. The issue here is not simply the rate of tax, the investment undertaking, IUT, rate is an issue and there is a case for looking at it. However, even if it were reduced, deemed disposal would remain a fundamental problem because it interrupts the benefits of compounding. Long-term investment works because returns can be invested and generate further returns over time.  Under deemed disposal, an investor can be required to pay tax on a gain that has never been realised. They may have to sell part of their investment or find cash from elsewhere simply to meet a tax liability. That means money which could otherwise remain invested and compound over decades is taken out of the investment. This matters in particular for ordinary retail investors. I have had so many people approach me and talk to me about this since I started to raise it. I have been surprised at the response I have got since first bringing it up. People in their 20s and upwards -people of all ages - from all areas of my constituency at different points in their lives and careers all see the opportunity in ETFs as a way to get ahead in life but they also see the unfairness of a tax that penalises potential and unrealised gains. Many are young people building savings towards a first home or people that are building up for retirement. Others have invested an inheritance, redundancy payment or a lump sum. They are investing for the long term, not necessarily looking to realise gains every few years.  Budget 2027 could be a landmark moment when the Government abolishes deemed disposal on ETFs and other investment products subject to investment undertaking tax, IUT. I understand what is happening at the moment and that there are budgetary demands, especially within a planned tax package of \u20ac1.5 billion. The Department of Finance has advised in replies to parliamentary questions I have tabled that IUT receipts account for less than 30% of the combined receipts from taxes subject to deemed disposal, and that makes IUT a practical place to begin, at a potential cost of less than \u20ac40 million. Those are my figures based on replies to parliamentary questions. For reference, that is double the cost of reducing the exit tax by 3%, as it was in the last budget.  The abolition of deemed disposal could then be extended to life assurance products in subsequent budgets. The introduction of personal investment accounts gives us an opportunity to create a better framework for long-term retail investment but that framework must work for those who have already invested as well as those who will invest in the future. This would ensure existing investors would not be left behind. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration (Deputy Colm Brophy)  I thank the Deputy for raising this matter. I am replying to her today on behalf of the T\u00e1naiste and Minister for Finance.  The deemed disposal rule was introduced in 2006 as an anti-avoidance measure. It applies to investment undertaking tax, life assurance exit tax and equivalent taxes in the self-assessed space applying to investment through certain kinds of funds and life assurance policies. Exchange-traded funds or ETFs are among a range of investments to which the rule applies. It was introduced because a pattern was observed at that time of products being structured so that tax could potentially be indefinitely deferred, which was contrary to the spirit of the gross roll-up tax regime introduced in 2000.  Under the deemed disposal rule, tax is levied eight years after the original investment is made, and every subsequent eight years thereafter. It is charged at the general tax rate for such investments, on any gain in the value of the investment from the date of acquisition or the last deemed disposal. The tax paid under the deemed disposal rule is effectively a prepayment of tax rather than an additional charge to tax, and is allowed as a credit against the tax due on a subsequent chargeable event, with any excess paid being refundable. Like any other aspect of the tax system, the deemed disposal rule is kept under review and may be subject to policy change. Just because a measure was introduced in response to relevant concerns at the time does not mean it should not be reconsidered in the current context.  The T\u00e1naiste has been very clear that more should be done to encourage and support people in Ireland to put their money to work through investing in capital markets. That is why, at the first annual savings and investment forum in March, he announced his intention to introduce a new investment account, similar to the savings and investment account models operating in other jurisdictions but designed to meet Ireland's specific needs in terms of encouraging retail investment. It aims to reduce the complexities related to retail investment taxation and allow retail investors to grow their savings more efficiently.  Importantly, one of the key guiding principles underlying the design of the account is a focus on encouraging new retail investors, rather than directing investment into any particular sector or product. The new account aims to reduce the complexities related to retail investment taxation and allow retail investors to grow their savings more efficiently. A lifetime tax-free threshold will apply to the account. Where the value is above the threshold, a low rate of tax will apply to the excess value of the account. An annual limit will apply to the maximum amount that can be contributed to the account.  Existing regimes in place for taxation of retail investment, including the deemed disposal rule, will not apply to the new account. All tax reporting, tax administration and payment of any tax due to Revenue will be managed by the provider, thereby removing the requirement for the individual investor to calculate or return any tax due.  The T\u00e1naiste believes that the introduction of this account will be a key step in supporting Irish people to put their money to work. However, as stated, that does not mean that the broader tax regime for retail investment is not subject to review and potential change over the coming years. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Currie","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Emer-Currie.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Emer Currie  I thank the Minister of State for the reply. I very much welcome the statements by the T\u00e1naiste and the work that has taken place on personal investment accounts. It is a world of opportunity for us. It is a very positive move in terms of maximising the savings that are being put away and could be working harder for everyone.  I also welcome the work that is being done around financial literacy and making investments more accessible for people. Like I said, this was an eye-opener for me. Since I spoke about ETFs and the deemed disposal rule I have met many people on their doorsteps who are concerned about this issue. It has certainly opened up my eyes to how much focus there can be on this area.  When I see issues, I come up with solutions and I try to be practical. I suggest the figures today as a stepping stone towards the abolition of the deemed disposal rule. It might be something that the Department of Finance could look at. I look forward to the budget. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Colm Brophy  I know from everything she has done in political life that Deputy Currie is definitely a person who looks for solutions. She looks at issues and asks how we can find a solution. The focus of the T\u00e1naiste on the new investment account is very clear and has been outlined. However, he and the Government are well aware of the frustration many investors feel with the deemed disposal rule, as Deputy Currie has highlighted. The introduction of the account does not mean that the broader tax regime for retail investment I mentioned earlier is not subject to review. In that regard, I highlight the recommendation of the funds review published by the Department of Finance in 2024, which, while recommending the removal of the deemed disposal rule also states that the addition of guardrails to protect the Exchequer would be required.  In tandem with this, officials in the Department of Finance continue to analyse how the tax regime for retail investment can be reformed in ways that support investment while balancing this objective with the need to protect public finances. Any future decisions will need to take into account the cost to the Exchequer of changes in a particular year. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Financial Services"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_41","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Special Educational Needs","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_39","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_39","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_41","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Whitmore  I want to raise with the Minister of State, Deputy Michael Moynihan, Kilcoole Primary School in County Wicklow. Kilcoole Primary School covers two schools that have amalgamated, St. Anthony's and St. Brigid's. It was a really good news story. It got approval for a new build and an extension for the new school. The entire community was very excited about it. It is a really positive story. I was there on the day the then Taoiseach turned the sod. He spoke about how important this new facility would be for the children of Kilcoole. He also said at that stage that it would include special educational needs classrooms. It has since transpired that, despite a new building being built on one site and an extension being built on the other site, there is no permanent SEN classes being provided as no classrooms were included in the design, which is an incredible oversight, seeing as SEN classes have been requested by the Department over many years. There is an obvious need in the area.  Building is happening at the moment with no SEN classes included. The Department has told the school that there will be four prefabs put on the grounds for children with special education needs. That is hugely disappointing. The Minister of State has done a lot of work in this area but children with special education needs should never feel like an afterthought. They should never feel second to everybody else in the school. There will be this fantastic new building that all of the primary school children will be able to enjoy, but then there will be a number of classrooms out the back for children with special education needs. I do not know if this was an oversight - I hope it was - but there is still an opportunity to get this right and include those children in this fantastic new build. The design team could incorporate permanent classrooms into the new build that is happening at the moment rather than sticking children out the back in prefabs or modular units. That is just not fair and it does not spell inclusion. I am really hoping that the Minister of State has some positive news for me on this because anyone looking at this objectively would think it is wrong. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Education and Youth (Deputy Michael Moynihan)  I thank the Deputy for the Topical Issue. The Government is committed to the provision of specialised education for children with special educational needs. In the early part of budget 2026, we have already provided funding for over 400 new special classes and at least 400 new special school places for the 2026-27 school year. It was intended that this would create almost 3,000 new special education placements for September 2026. This would be in addition to placements created due to the natural movement of students, such as those transitioning from primary to post-primary or completing school. In April 2026, the Government agreed to additional funding for the provision of specialised education services for children across the country. This money is funding special education teachers, additional special needs assistants, SNAs, increased capitation, access to specialised school transport and start-up grants for schools opening new special classes and inclusive special classes.  The year 2026 represents the largest ever expansion of specialised education provision in the history of the State. Through the combined efforts of the Department and the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, 587 new special classes have been sanctioned for the 2026-27 school year, including 70 inclusive special classes. This represents an increase of over 40% in the number of special classes being provided in 2026 compared to 2025. In total, there will be over 4,300 special classes operating in mainstream schools next year.  In County Wicklow, 148 special classes are now in operation, providing capacity for 888 students. This includes 16 new special classes for the 2026-27 school year. In April, the Minister, Deputy Naughton, and I announced the establishment of four new special schools for the 2026-27 school year, including in Bray. Dedicated working groups including the Department, the NCSE and the relevant patron body continue to meet to support the establishment of these new special schools. Offers of placements have been made, new principals, teachers and SNAs are being recruited and it is intended that these new schools will open later in term 1 of this school year. The NCSE continues to advise parents at local level on developments. My Department is currently funding a large scale major project for Kilcoole Primary School. The Department has requested the current design team to master plan for future provision of specialised classes. Modular accommodation is one of the Department\u2019s delivery streams for provision of permanent accommodation at schools. Having assessed the position regarding additional capacity for special classes, the Department has determined that modular accommodation represents the most cost-effective method for provision of additional permanent accommodation at Kilcoole Primary School.  Modular expenditure is an investment in permanent accommodation in the same way as any other traditional form of construction. In the majority of cases, it is providing a permanent solution to accommodation requirements; it is not temporary accommodation. Modular accommodation is well suited to the school context. Off-site construction minimises disruption in the live school environment while factory precision and strict quality control deliver robust, low-maintenance buildings. Today's modular buildings represent a major advancement from earlier prefabricated forms and since December 2018, all new builds, including modular, must meet the near-zero energy building standard, ensuring high energy efficiency and sustainability. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Whitmore  I thank the Minister of State. I have seen some fantastic modular buildings but what they are not is the same as the permanent traditional building. The children who will be in those classrooms will know that they are in a different type of build. Those modular buildings will not look like the traditional build and the existing school and they will not feel like it. Those children will feel different. That should not be acceptable to the Minister of State with responsibility for special education. When the T\u00e1naiste, Simon Harris, was Taoiseach and announced this school, he said there would be special education classes in the school. Why were they not included in the design? They should have been. The Government did not do it then but it now has an opportunity to ensure the design includes additional classrooms for those children.  It is not acceptable to make them feel separate to the main class and the main school building. It just is not okay. It may be more cost effective and I have asked the Minister of State's Department for the information as to how much it would cost to modify the current build versus how much these modular buildings will cost. These modular buildings are expensive as well, so I would appreciate if the Minister of State could send me those figures. If the Department is saying it is more cost effective, it would be interesting to know by how much. It is not just about cost, though. It is about including these children so they feel the exact same as their classmates who are in the brand new building. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Moynihan  I take the Deputy's point and I can get the figures for her. In the provision of specialised education, we want to ensure that in special classes that are associated with mainstream schools, inclusivity is one of the major key pieces in it. In the ramping up of the provision and the capacity across the country, I have been at many schools and seen the work that has happened over the past while. We have made a very serious commitment and in terms of any new build that is going on, both at primary and post-primary levels, the first criteria that we reach out for is what is the provision for specialised education in all of that programme. Capital investment has to have provision at mainstream level, both for primary and post-primary schools.  The school leadership brought the school through the amalgamation process and has an exceptional team working there. I take the Deputy's point about buildings but it is also about ensuring every child feels welcome. I know that is the case in this school. In all schools across the country, it is important that it is not just about buildings, be they brick and mortar or modular, and that inclusivity means every child with special education needs feels and is included in the school, insofar as possible. I have no doubt that that will be the case.  On the question the Deputy asked about the financing, because we have provided so much funding this year, last year and again next year, we have to make sure we have provision for specialised education right across the country. I will get the figures the Deputy asked for. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Special Educational Needs"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_42","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Special Educational Needs","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_39","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_39","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_42","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Shane Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Shane-Moynihan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Shane-Moynihan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Shane Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Shane-Moynihan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Shane-Moynihan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Shane Moynihan  Today, I speak to the Minister of State about the need for expansion and reform of our approach to dyslexia, dyspraxia, apraxia of speech and the other associated difficulties around literacy for children in our schools in particular. As the Minister of State knows and as I have discussed with him on many occasions, this is something that is very important to me but also something that affects 10% of our population, which is the percentage perceived to have dyslexia, notwithstanding the other difficulties with dyspraxia and apraxia of speech as well.  Ultimately, access to the curriculum, participation in school and participation in the school community that the Minister of State referred to in the previous answer is all predicated on being able to read, write and use the tools that are provided in our schools.  The Minister of State and I have met many groups from up and down my constituency and further afield where they point to the how the purpose of this area of policy and our approach to policy not only need review, but reform. The international evidence shows that there is no substitute for a systematic, highly focused, outcome-focused intervention over a number of years in a separate setting to assist those with dyslexia and ensure they are not locked out of the curriculum. We have made huge strides in this country and the Minister of State has been the reason for a large part of that in rolling out the number of special classes we have available for students with autism. What I am proposing today is that we now look at that same model for how we approach allowing people to participate fully in the curriculum and take account of their speech and language difficulties. I appreciate the investment there has been in special education teaching over the last number of years and also the efforts that individual schools have made to assist those with dyslexia in their school populations, but there is massive variation across schools. There is massive variability in how this is interpreted and we need a cohesive and standardised approach, similar to what we have done for children with autism.  The fact that brings this into focus for me is that if we look at the populations in our prisons and at our populations who are at risk and are marginal, the prevalence of dyslexia, dyspraxia and apraxia of speech among is particularly high. That in and of itself tells me a story. The people who feel they have been locked out of the curriculum feel like they have been locked out of society as well. The evidence points to a very effective solution here, which is that systematic, outcome-focused approach through a reading class or a reading school, which have been shown to be extremely successful in this country.  All I am asking today is that we consider reform of this entire area, that we would look at the experience of groups like Finding Charlie's Voice, and Crack the Code, which have taken a very proactive and evidence-based approach to identifying what we need to do in this area to avoid the variation across schools. I am not casting aspersions on the work that teachers do because there are very committed teachers in this space. It is about making sure we have a time-limited outcome and that, after this intervention to assist those with dyslexia takes place, they are able to go on, participate in the mainstream curriculum and achieve their potential. That is the ask I am putting to the Minister of State today.  Reading classes are not the only part of that toolbox. There is also the question of ensuring that initial teacher training at our teacher training colleges provides teachers with the tools to quickly screen and identify dyslexia, dyspraxia and apraxia of speech so that they know how to signpost to the particular services that are needed, and to make it easy for principals and special education teachers to refer those children who need help to reading classes. The first step here is for us to think about how we approach dyslexia in our schools and how we learn from what we have done successfully in the field of autism and apply that same model to the field of dyslexia. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Moynihan  I thank the Deputy for the question. We have discussed this issue and he has raised it a number of times with me. I have met a number of stakeholders to discuss how our schools support children with dyslexia, including experts in the field, teachers, parents and advocacy groups, such as the likes of Dyslexia Ireland and the Crack the Code group, which I met with Deputy Moynihan before the summer. As he knows, the majority of students with literacy difficulties currently receive additional teaching supports from a specialised education teacher in mainstream classrooms. The Department of Education and Youth has invested considerably in this space, with 15,200 special education teachers allocated to primary and post-primary schools to enable them to support children with additional needs, including students with literacy difficulties. Funding is also made available to schools for the purchase of specialised equipment such as computers or software to assist children where relevant professionals recommend the equipment as being essential for the provision of education. In addition, there are four schools dedicated to supporting students with specific learning disabilities, SLDs. There are also 14 SLD classes in 11 mainstream primary schools located across the country, in counties Dublin, Clare, Louth, Galway, Kerry and Wexford. As the Deputy knows, these settings have a student-teacher ratio of 1:9 and are attended by students normally aged between the ages of eight and 12 years for a maximum of two years. Students will also have a diagnosis of dyslexia and a score at the 2% percentile, or lower, on literacy standardised tests. They will also have an average or above average level of intelligence. In addition, the National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS, offers a national programme of support, which includes national webinars that have been consistently highly attended. All of these supports are important and do support children with dyslexia.  From what I am told by front-line staff, however, is that in some instances further supports are required. Specialised education teachers are an important part of the network of supports but, equally, will not be the solution in all cases. This is something of which I am very much aware and needs to be carefully considered by me as Minister of State with responsibility for special education. What I am clear on at this stage is how we support children with dyslexia and additional literacy needs is an area in which we need to see reform. We cannot continue with the status quo and there needs to be a change. I have discussed this issue with the inspectorate and will be engaging with it further, as well as with officials in my Department and, indeed, with several organisations and advocacy groups. We must all work collectively to ensure we have the best policy in place so that the outcomes for children are the best they can be. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Shane Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Shane-Moynihan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Shane-Moynihan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Shane Moynihan  I particularly thank the Minister for State for his acknowledgement of the need for reform in this area. That is a very welcome statement by him because I know of his personal interest in this matter and his personal commitment to the whole area of special education. I emphasise again that I am not doing down the amazing work that is done by front-line staff in our area but it is about making sure that the full gamut of tools is available to all those who are in area of dyslexia and assisting those with dyslexia. When I think of children who have severe dyslexia and the effective models the Minister of State has outlined in his reply around the reading schools and reading classes we have in place, we have a model in a box that we could roll out to other schools around the country. I know from having spoken to principals and teachers in my constituency that there is a willingness and an appetite to see these in place. They are little different from autism spectrum disorder, ASD, classes, in that it is a two-year programme of support that unlocks so much for the children who require this care. There is a willingness to learn about the approaches that are taken by groups like Crack the Code to the use of structural literacy to ensure our teacher training programmes reflect the need to make sure teachers feel equipped to identify dyslexia very early on, as well as by groups like Finding Charlie's Voice, which speaks about the co-occurrence of conditions such as autism, dyspraxia and dyslexia, to make sure our reading classes and the approach we take ensure that those with speech, communication and language difficulties are able to fully participate in the curriculum. The Minister of State quite rightly stated that inclusivity needed to be at the heart of our education system. Reading classes are a key way to enable that inclusivity because they provide tailored and strong support and allow those children to participate in mainstream education.  I look forward to working with the Minister of State on this. I thank him for his support on it, for meeting the various groups, and for his willingness to look at the reform that is needed to move forward. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Moynihan  I thank the Deputy for giving me the opportunity to reassure the House that the Department of Education and Youth and the NCSE are committed to ensuring that all children can access an education suitable to their needs. The Department continues to engage intensely with the NCSE in relation to forward planning for new special provision to ensure every child has a place in an educational setting best fitted to their educational need.  No policy position can be static and needs to evolve alongside the student population and the needs presenting. If we look back since the foundation of the State, education has constantly being evolving. There have been major movements along the way but it has constantly been evolving, as it has the world over as well. As mentioned, how we support children with dyslexia and additional literacy needs is an area that needs reform and I am engaging with officials on what this reform looks like. I will be advancing this as quickly as possible. I am also working on a new measure that will see the provision of enhanced supports in mainstream schools for students experiencing literacy difficulties. I hope over the next while that we will be able to update the House accordingly.  I thank the Deputy for his commitment to this matter and for the meetings he has had with the various advocacy groups. I take very seriously the concerns they have - not just his groups', but also the concerns of others we have met across the country, along with other parents and school authorities - in relation to dyslexia and how we need to look at it into the future.  We are looking at reform and how best we can meet the needs because every cent that is spent on special education will have enormous benefit for the child, their families and the State. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Special Educational Needs"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_43","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Special Educational Needs","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_39","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_39","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_43","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mark Wall  I welcome the Minister of State to the House today and for giving me an opportunity to discuss with him the urgent need for additional special school places in my area of Kildare South.  Over the past number of years, particularly since I have been in both Houses, I have been raising the urgent issue of special school places in Kildare South. We were previously given a commitment that we would have a special school in Kildare South. Unfortunately, as I have said many times in this House and the Upper House, that school turned out to be located in Craddockstown in Naas, which is in north Kildare. However, it is a very good school. It is operating well but it is completely full, and it causes problems for all of those people who are seeking a special school place for their child.  Another school that we have in our area, and I am looking forward to the Minister of State providing an update on it, is St. Anne's Special School in the Curragh, which is waiting ten years for a new school build. I raised this with the Taoiseach a number of months ago and we are waiting for word on when that great school on the Curragh will see the new build that has been promised for so long and is so needed with so many children now working from prefabs and not getting to use the playgrounds, etc., the school could offer.  However, I want to concentrate today on the new school located in Monasterevin in County Kildare. I want to again put on the record my thanks to the Government and everybody who was involved in getting this school in Ros Glas in Monasterevin because it was badly needed. As I said, I have been saying this for such a long time in this House but, unfortunately, the 18 places available in Ros Glas school have now been totally oversubscribed. We have three different classes there: ages four to eight, nine to 13 and 14 to 18.  In particular, it seems from talking to the Kildare Wicklow Education Training Board, KWETB, it is the nine to 13 class that is oversubscribed the most. It is because pupils are coming from primary school settings into a secondary school setting. There was so much hope that the particular new school in Ros Glas was going to be location for their children but over the past four to five days parents have been receiving letters informing them that their child did not get a place.  I want to read the Minister of State one of those letters. I know that I have been in contact with him in relation to a number of children but this is from a parent, Edel Murray, who is fighting for a place for her son, Jack. Edel recently shared an open letter to the Minister of State, the Government and to all the public representatives in Kildare South.  Jack is an incredible boy with autism and a moderate intellectual disability. He is so much more than a diagnosis. He is our son, and he deserves the opportunity to learn, grow, build friendships, develop independence, and reach his full potential. But right now, Jack is at home, not because he does not need or deserve school, but because we have been unable to secure him a suitable special school placement.  [...]  Despite our efforts, Jack has been refused a place at every school. We live just 1.3 km from St. Anne's, [the school that I mentioned to the Minister of State before] yet there are no spaces available. This morning, we received a refusal from Ros Glas, our last remaining hope.  We cannot put into words the heartbreak and helplessness we feel. How do you explain to your child that there is no school place for him when all he needs is the opportunity to learn and grow?  As the Minister of State is probably aware, I have spoken to a number of parents, including the parents of Caden and Rhys. I could name so many more. The hope that was there that Ros Glas was going to give them that school place how gone. They will of course appeal to that school for a place but speaking to the KWETB, the hope is very much limited because the places are not there. I ask the Minister of State to maybe give some good news to those parents who have multiple needs and unfortunately do not have a school place for their loved one. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Moynihan  I thank Deputy Wall for the question. The Government is very committed to the provision of specialised education. In the budget of 2026, this time last year, we committed to over 400 new special classes and over 400 new special school places. In April, we agreed additional funding to have more funding in place for more special classes and special school places as well.  The year 2026 represents the largest ever expansion of specialist educational provision in the history of the State. Through the combined efforts of the Department and the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, 587 new special classes have been sanctioned for the 2026-2027 school year, including 70 inclusive special classes. This represents an increase of over 40% in the number of special classes being provided in 2026 compared to 2025. Between 1 September 2025 and 1 September 2026, nine new special schools opened and there are almost 1,000 extra special classes. In total, there will be over 4,300 special classes operating in mainstream schools next year, an increase of 130% since 2020.  In Kildare, 180 special classes are now in operation providing capacity for 1,080 students. This includes 33 new special classes for the 2026-2027 school year. In April of this year, the Minister, Deputy Naughton, and I announced the establishment of four new special schools for this year, including Monasterevin, to which the Deputy alluded. This brings to 20 the number of new special schools established in recent years.  Dedicated working groups in the Department, the NCSE and the relevant patron bodies continue to meet and to support the establishment of the new special schools. On that point, I thank the ETBs and the patron bodies that have opened those special schools and continue to work very closely with us on the new special schools. We are desperately committed. When a new special school opens, there is a huge new skillset needed and we are desperately committed to ensuring that back-up service is there through the ETBs, our Department and the patron bodies.  Offers of places have been recently made while new principals, teachers and SNAs have been recruited. It is intended that these new schools will open in term 1 of this school year. The NCSE continues to advise parents at a local level on developments, and to support children with contingency arrangements.  The Deputy raised the issue in terms of a specific child and, while I am reluctant to speak about a specific child on the floor of the D\u00e1il, I do take it very seriously. I know that offers were in place and that the Department and the NCSE are working very closely with a small number of children. I have reached out to some of those parents over the past day or two to get a sense of where they are at and to understand their need.  On the 18 places in the three classes in Monasterevin, we are building up the skillset for special school places to open and to build up over the next number of years. That is very much in-built in our policy. It offers us the opportunity to get the skillset but I take the point the Deputy raised in relation to one or more of his constituents and their children. I understand the challenges there and the very serious stress it is causing them. We are working day in, day out to make sure we are meeting that need. The Department and the NCSE will continue to do that in the time ahead. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mark Wall  I thank the Minister of State. I have no doubt of his commitment to helping the families because when I contact him, he always comes back to me. That is a sign of his commitment to the families that I and everybody in this House represent. The problem I have is that I have been told by the KWETB that, particularly in the 12 to 13 age bracket, these families could be waiting a very long time to get a special school place because the demand is so high. As I have said, this is a demand that I have highlighted in the Upper House and in this House for the past six years. That is why we were so enraged when the first school was put in Craddockstown. It is a wonderful school but now that we have a school in south Kildare, I ask the Minister of State to look at particular age bracket because that seems to be the biggest issue in relation to the school. I do not know how to advise the parents who have come to me, and I could name an awful lot more.  When the Minister of State talks about the contingency arrangements the NCSE is talking about, it is home schooling, and he knows that. That is what it has said to the parents when they contacted it. It has said it will provide home schooling for them. That means the children who have come so far over the past number of years in some primary settings have no hope because they are going back into a home school setting and those friendships and relationships they have developed, that social inclusion, is gone.  That is hugely distressing for their families. Maybe we could look at the contingency arrangements again. Maybe we could go back to parents and say that we are going to do more. Again, I do not doubt the Minister of State's bona fides on this because he has been very helpful to me with every case I have raised. However, I cannot go back to the parents of those pupils in south Kildare and tell them there is no hope, that there are no classrooms coming up for a number of years. That particular age bracket is full and there is no hope of anything coming but I ask again, can we just look at that age bracket, while we are looking in general? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Michael-Moynihan.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Moynihan  I thank the Deputy for his kind comments. We do not turn water into wine every time but we do certainly try to help and assist in any way we can. I accept the Deputy's comments on this. We started out this time last year, just after 1 October, with a huge number of students, at primary and post-primary and in special schools, looking for places. We have, through the massive work that continued throughout the year in the Department of education and the NCSE, brought that down to a very small cohort of children, although any one person is one too many. We are working on this. We have sight of it. We meet weekly. We chair a meeting in the Department with the NCSE on a weekly basis to make sure that we have sight of what is happening and the movement over the last number of weeks has been quite considerable.  I take the point that the Deputy makes in terms of the middle group. If one looks at the provision of specialised education, at primary school we have advanced and invested a huge amount into special classes. I would like to thank all of the school communities, patron bodies and everybody involved in that but we have a lot of work to do to make sure we have corresponding provision at post-primary. Going back 20 or 25 years ago, international policy was not about building special schools. It was seen as negative and the commentary was that it should not been done but we have really ramped up the provision of specialised school places and will continue to do so, year in and year out, over the next number of years because we want to ensure that children who have complex needs and educational requirements that are best suited to special schools have places.  I do not want to go into the specifics that the Deputy has raised but I am certainly aware of them. I will be working to try to find solutions for every family over the next number of weeks. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Special Educational Needs"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_44","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Rail Network","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_39","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_39","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_44","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Malcolm Byrne  Once again I am raising the question of the continually poor service on the Dublin to Rosslare rail line. In terms of Topical Issues, Commencement Matters and parliamentary questions over the last six or seven years, I do not know how many times I have raised this issue. I appreciate that the Minister of State, Deputy Brophy, is taking this on behalf of the Department of Transport.  The rail line between Westland Row, which is now Pearse Street, and D\u00fan Laoghaire is the oldest railway line in Ireland. In fact, it was the first commuter rail line in the world, built in 1834. I would argue, if we could transport ourselves back there, that there was a greater commitment to commuters using the line at that time. After its construction in 1834, over the next three decades it expanded all the way down along the coast to Rosslare. We are in a situation now where, in my constituency, if one gets on a train in Rathdrum, Arklow or Gorey, there are only six trains per day on weekdays between those stations and Dublin. Equidistant, if we look at somewhere like Carlow, there are 11 trains a day. If one is coming from Drogheda or Dundalk, there are 16 trains per day, with plans to expand that, and if one is coming from Portlaoise, which is also equidistant, there are 32 trains every day. However, the issue is not just the number of services. From my home town of Gorey to Connolly Station in Dublin city centre is about 90 km. It takes two hours by train to travel those 90 km. To travel the 182 km from Dublin to Belfast takes roughly the same length of time. If one wants to travel from Dublin to Cork, it is approximately 266 km which takes between two and a half and two and three quarter hours.  This summer the situation got worse. The trains were breaking down. The air conditioning failed on the train on a number of occasions and Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann had to distribute bottles of water to consumers. If there was an alternative, in terms of the N11, that would be fine but the N11 is frequently blocked, with major tailbacks. I cannot see any commitment on the part of Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann to the services in my constituency and right down along the Rosslare rail line. There is talk about battery-powered trains and running more regular trains, while forcing people, potentially, to have to change trains in Wicklow, but there is no guarantee of extra services. In response to all of the questions I have asked, there is no guarantee of improvement of the quality of the trains. New trains were put on the track a number of years ago but were subsequently withdrawn. Essentially, the worst trains in Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann's stock continue to be offered on the Rosslare rail line. I am not satisfied that every time I submit a parliamentary question, the Minister will refer it on and say the operational details are a matter for Iarnr\u00f3d \u00c9ireann. It is simply not good enough for the commuting population down along the east coast.  There is a number of potential solutions, including the introduction of overtaking loops on what is a single track and closing a number of the level crossings, of which there are six on the way into Dublin. This would allow the trains to move more quickly or to overtake the DARTs. We are spending \u20ac3 million per year on protecting the railway line from coastal erosion. Would it not make more sense to look at moving the track further inland to protect it into the long term? What really annoys commuters is that we are talking about a doubling of the railway track from Dublin to Belfast, from two to four tracks. I totally support that but why can we not, at the very least, see a doubling of the number of tracks on the Dublin to Rosslare line from one to two? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration (Deputy Colm Brophy)  I thank Deputy Byrne, on behalf of the Minister for Transport, for the opportunity to address this issue in the House today. Improving public transport services and infrastructure is central to improving citizens' quality of life and addressing our climate action challenge, and this Government is committed to a fundamental change in the nature of transport in Ireland. In relation to the Deputy\u2019s query on enhancing capacity on the network, in particularly in relation to improvements to capacity to the south of Wicklow town, I note that Iarnr\u00f3d Eireann\u2019s rolling stock is currently fully deployed in service across the network. Notwithstanding this, I am pleased to note that as part of the DART+ programme, three orders delivering a total of 285 new carriages have been placed so far. When the first and second orders start entering service in 2027 and 2028, respectively, this will allow the redeployment of existing Intercity and commuter trains to other parts of the rail network experiencing capacity issues, including potentially on the Rosslare line. As this fleet enters operation, DART services will also be extended south of Wicklow town, a development which is targeted for 2029. The redeployment of rolling stock is an operational matter for Iarnr\u00f3d Eireann and the National Transport Authority, NTA, which will be decided on following the entry into service of the new DART fleet.  The all-island strategic rail review, which was published in July 2024, also considered the issue of enhancing services on the Rosslare line. The review considered options to enable faster and more frequent journeys between Rosslare Europort and Dublin, including adding passing loops, tunnelling through Bray Head, developing a new railway along the M11 corridor, and developing a new line for DART services along the N11 corridor. Many of these solutions would be very costly and the review concluded that they would not be justifiable on socioeconomic or cost-benefit grounds, as the east coast rail line would not be expected to support more than one or two trains per hour in each direction. The review proposes that the best way forward for boosting connectivity in the south east in the shorter term is to introduce an hourly shuttle service between Wexford and Greystones, meeting seamlessly with DART services, bringing passengers into and out of the centre of Dublin city. This would be an operational decision and would need to be put in place following infrastructure upgrades planned under the DART+ programme.  On behalf of the Minister for Transport, I again thank the Deputy for raising this important matter. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Malcolm Byrne  I thank the Minister of State for the reply. I appreciate that he is taking the matter on behalf of the Minister but there is not an awful lot that is new in what he said. Essentially, the response with regard to new carriages is that when we put new carriages on some of the other lines, the hand-me-downs may be passed on to the Rosslare rail line. In the response, there are no plans for improvement with regard to the N11. There are already serious difficulties with traffic jams on the N11. In fact, people will recall that during Storm Chandra at the start of this year when the N11 had to close at Kilmacanogue, it caused chaos.  I am not seeing any real commitment in the Minister of State's response to the travelling public from counties Wicklow and Wexford. CSO statistics show that approximately 6,500 people travel from the Wicklow-Wexford area, primarily to the southside of Dublin and mostly for the purposes of work, but also to go to college, attend hospital appointments and so on. Unfortunately, the message I am reading in the reply is that the Government does not intend to do anything for those people in the next few years. There has been talk for a long time of extending the DART line to Wicklow. However, that will not be much comfort to my constituents who will have to change trains at Wicklow station on a cold, wet morning to get to the city. In particular, due consideration has not been given to those with mobility difficulties.  I would be grateful if the Minister of State would convey my concerns to the Minister. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Colm Brophy  I will, of course, relate the Deputy's concerns to the Minister. I take on board what he is saying. Investment in transport is key to what the Government is doing. We want to realise our commitment in that regard. The Deputy is primarily talking about the service south of Wicklow town but, as he knows, there is a very substantial commitment to investment in terms of DART+, including delivery of new battery and electric units and new rolling stock.  For many reasons, people want to move out of their cars and onto trains and buses. That is something the Government will continue to support. I will convey the Deputy's concerns about this line directly to the Minister. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Before we move on to our next business, I am sure Deputies will join me in welcoming to the Gallery members of the Meath Cancer Support Group, led today by Ms Rachel Mullen. Their visit is at the behest of Senator McCarthy. They are most welcome. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Rail Network"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-24\/debate\/dbsect_45","debateType":"debate","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2025\/72","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2025\/72\/dail\/2","houseCode":"dail","stage":"2","isBillStage":true,"showAs":"Electricity Regulation (Climate Action and Connection to Distribution and Transmission Systems) Bill 2025: Second Stage [Private Members] (D\u00e1il)"}},"showAs":"Electricity Regulation (Climate Action and Connection to Distribution and Transmission Systems) Bill 2025: Second Stage [Private Members]","counts":{"speechCount":9,"speakerCount":6},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_45","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ciar\u00e1n Ahern","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"R\u00e9ada Cronin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ciar\u00e1n Ahern","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ciar\u00e1n Ahern  I move: \"\"That the Bill be now read a Second Time.\"  Is l\u00e1 m\u00f3r br\u00f3id dom \u00e9 an l\u00e1 seo mar t\u00e1 mo ch\u00e9ad ph\u00edosa reachta\u00edochta tar \u00e9is an Dara C\u00e9im a bhaint amach. T\u00e1im ag tn\u00fath leis an d\u00edosp\u00f3ireacht. T\u00e1 s\u00fail agam go mbeidh s\u00e9 go maith agus fi\u00fantach, agus go dtabharfaidh an tAire St\u00e1it a thaca\u00edocht don Bhille.  This is the first Bill I have introduced. Its Title continues the long Labour Party tradition of snappy marketing. The Title may be technical but the Bill itself is neat. It is designed to fix a gap in our law and do some good.  The Minister of State is aware of my position on data centres. My Labour Party colleagues have repeatedly made clear our view that there should be a moratorium on new data centre construction until we can be sure they will not impact on our ability to meet our climate targets and will no longer push up household energy bills. However, that is not the Government's position. The Bill is very much an attempt to work constructively with the Government on data centre policy. It presents a pretty straightforward proposition that if the Government insists on continuing to connect new very large users of electricity to the national grid, we must ensure those connections are consistent with Ireland's climate objectives and do not place an unfair burden on ordinary households and our electricity system as a whole.  My Bill would amend the Electricity Regulation Act 1999 to give the Commission for Regulation of Utilities, CRU, the power to make climate-related requirements a condition of connection to, or use of, our transmission and distribution systems. In particular, the CRU would be able to require applicants to take specified measures to avoid, prevent, reduce, offset or abate greenhouse gas emissions or otherwise advance the national climate objective. The idea for the Bill came about when the CRU published its draft large energy users connection policy last year.  There were some positive proposals, particularly the requirement that data centres would have to generate electricity equal to their own maximum import capacity. If they take a megawatt, they must be able to produce a megawatt to return to the grid. That proposal has subsequently been included in the final decision, which is very much a welcome development. However, at the time the CRU published its draft decision, there was nothing said about how the electricity should be generated. No guardrails were proposed against the use of fossil fuels. My concern was that we would simply see data centres building new gas plants on site and locking in more carbon emissions at the very moment we need to be phasing out gas. Obviously, that is less than ideal from a climate perspective and also from an energy affordability perspective in terms of the price effect that our existing reliance on gas is already having.  The CRU was asked at the time why it was not considering a renewable requirement. Its response, in essence, was that it did not have the power to do that. Under the Climate Action and Low Carbon Development Act 2015, public bodies must, insofar as practicable, act in line with the national climate objective. However, the Act frames that objective fairly broadly. The CRU's view was that the Act did not give it the explicit authority to mandate specific emission reductions or abatement measures, such as requiring data centres to use renewable generation. I saw that as a fairly serious legislative gap that could undermine our whole climate strategy.  My Bill, in short, seeks to address that gap. The power to mandate the types of measures I have outlined is necessary for the CRU to have. For new data centres in particular, the logical application of that principle is that their electricity demand should ultimately be matched entirely by additional renewable electricity. In its final decision on new connections, the CRU instituted a requirement that data centres would have to source 80% of their maximum import capacity from renewables within six years of connecting to the grid. I do not believe that is sufficient. One fifth of the massive amount of energy that data centres consume is a huge amount of new fossil fuel demand. Professor Hannah Daly of UCC has done some great work on explaining the issues with the CRU rules. When energy demand is rising so rapidly in Ireland, largely due to the enormous growth in the data centre sector, we could see a situation where we deploy more and more renewables but, at the same time, our emissions continue to rise. Big gas generators can be seen when driving past any of the data centres on the M50. Fossil fuels will continue to provide power to data centres when renewable generation is unavailable.  The CRU's six-year glide path or period of doing absolutely nothing also presents a problem. First, there are no clearly defined interim milestones required from data centres over that time, such as a requirement, for example, to reach 50% renewables within three years. There is not even any need for them to count their emissions over the six-year period. Even more important is that the emissions that build up over those six years are not just cancelled out by data centres providing or procuring renewable energy in later years. Those emissions are cumulative and irreversible. This policy basically means that data centres currently being developed could potentially rely substantially on fossil fuel generation well into the 2030s.  It is also worth noting that the 80% renewables requirement is measured on an annual basis rather than requiring renewable generation to match demand at the time it occurs. This is important because wind and solar generation levels vary depending on the time of day and the weather. By contrast, data centre energy demand is hugely inflexible and requires a highly reliable electricity supply around the clock. A company could satisfy an annual renewable energy requirement while still relying on fossil fuel generation for significant periods when wind and solar output is low.  That distinction matters. Ireland's electricity system already faces constraints in integrating increasing amounts of renewable generation. Network limitations, limited storage and interconnection constraints can prevent renewable electricity from being available exactly where and when demand occurs. Fossil fuels fill that gap. Without additional investment in the infrastructure needed to balance supply and demand, an annual renewable target does not necessarily translate into equivalent reductions in fossil fuel generation. By allowing that 20% fossil fuel generation, we risk creating a situation where the policy designed to manage the electricity system impacts of data centres will simultaneously encourage investment in new fossil fuel infrastructure.  Such infrastructure could operate for decades, potentially creating precisely the kind of fossil fuel lock-in that climate policy should seek to avoid. We are seeing that already with this Government's proposal to build a floating LNG reserve on the Shannon. This is designed to serve the needs of large energy users.  Last year, data centres accounted for 23% - almost one quarter - of our energy consumption. Over the next few years, that figure will hit 30%. They will soon be using more energy than every household in the country combined. Remarkably, data centres accounted for 88.2% of the increase in Ireland's electricity demand since 2015. Energy demand from data centres has grown an average of 22.6% per year versus 0.4% for all other sectors of our economy. That seems crazy. Data centres are the defining force shaping Ireland's electricity system, an entire system increasingly organised around the demands of a small number of large corporate users and their interests. Even if we forget about the climate impact, the unfettered growth in data centre energy demand is hitting ordinary households in the pocket.  The issues here are twofold. First, there is the enormous stress that the level of energy demand coming from data centres is having on our grid, which is struggling to keep up. For that reason, the Government is now investing billions of euro in upgrading the grid, as well as in new sustainable power generation and additional gas-fired capacity. A confidential memo from the Secretary General of the Department of public expenditure put it plainly: soaring demand, overwhelmingly attributable to data centres, is driving the need for new generation and grid reinforcement. It is not as if data centres will be paying for these upgrades. It will be households who are already put to the pin of their collars who will be footing the bill through higher network tariffs.  I point the Minister of State in the direction of a report released this week and commissioned by Lynn Boylan MEP. It looks at the ways in which the cost of the grid investment required to facilitate the ever-growing demands of data centres and other large energy users are socialised across the public. The fact that this is by design is reflected in the title of the report. I quoted a figure of 88.2%. Data centres are responsible for 88.2% of the growth in our energy demand over the past decade. They almost certainly have not paid for the equivalent share in grid investment. They absolutely have not. There is a line in the report that I think perfectly encapsulates the situation. It states that the grid becomes a publicly funded platform for private growth. Households are paying for the infrastructure that keeps data centres running and allows for the continued rapid growth in their energy consumption, in effect subsidising the demands of multinational tech giants  The second aspect is the actual price effect that data centre energy demands are having. Trying to concisely explain how energy markets work is a fool's errand, but for the benefit of the record I will give it a shot. Electricity prices function on a system of marginal pricing. The cheapest available electricity source is chosen first by operators to meet demand. Typically, the cheapest energy is renewable. When that is insufficient to meet demand, the next-cheapest source is chosen, and this continues until there is sufficient electricity to meet demand. Crucially, the last source to enter the market, which is the most expensive and is typically gas, sets the wholesale price for all other energy sources in the mix. In effect, when electricity demand is low, renewables can set the wholesale price and energy is cheap. However, when demand is high, gas sets the price and energy becomes more expensive. The thing to consider is that data centre energy demand is remarkably inflexible. It is there all the time. Unlike households or small businesses, data centre power consumption does not fluctuate throughout the day. Where households consume power together during peak periods of the day, such as when making dinner or doing the washing in the evening, data centres' demand profile acts as a rising floor, raising the level of peak demand higher than it would otherwise be and making gas the price-setter more often. Likewise, even during periods of low energy demand from households or other industries, data centres' constant need for energy creates a floor. The inflexibly high level of data centre energy consumption pushes demand above the level of cheap renewable energy more often and, therefore, gas sets the price more often.  The impact this has had on household bills was laid out in a report by Friends of the Earth earlier this year. The price is \u20ac715 million. That is the price that data centres put on Irish households between 2015 and 2023. It amounts to approximately \u20ac360 per household, or in other words, a week's wages for low-income earners. It is anticipated that under a high-demand growth scenario, which on the current trajectory is the likely scenario, data centres could add a further \u20ac1.5 billion to household bills over the next decade. This is at a time when more than 500,000 energy accounts are in arrears. To add insult to injury, data centres are paying less for their electricity than ordinary household users. That is why we in the Labour Party and others have said that we need a levy on data centres' energy use. It is deeply unfair that while data centre operators are getting cut-price deals, hard-working families and households are paying through their noses.  I know that the Government's point is that data centres are an integral part of our industrial strategy and we cannot do anything to upset the tech companies lest they take their business elsewhere. I do not dispute that data centres and the tech sector more broadly are a vital part of our economy. Data centres are a fact of modern life and enable the digital infrastructure that is more or less indispensable to properly participate in society these days. No one is arguing that. Our issue is with the scale of the growth we are seeing now, particularly with these new proposed hyper-scale data centres used for AI. Not only does the Government appear to have no appreciation of the costs associated with this growth, whether those are costs to our environment or people, it has actively been trying to hide those costs. The report on data centres that was commissioned by the Department of enterprise was, frankly, an embarrassment. Not alone did the Government attempt to grossly exaggerate the number of jobs that data centres provide for Ireland, we know from freedom of information requests that the Government explicitly instructed KPMG to remove sections of the report that highlighted the costs associated with the massive concentration of data centres here. Why is the Government so afraid of having this conversation and doing a genuine cost-benefit analysis of the expansion of data centres in Ireland? Is it because those elements of the report which were excluded from the final copy, on the explicit instruction of the Department of enterprise, drew into question the continued green-lighting of more and more data centres and whether the resources required would be better directed in addressing public services such as housing and transport? All mention of housing was cut from the final report and, particularly relevant for this debate, so too was any question raised around sustainability and energy considerations. Clearly, it was not a genuine attempt by the Government to examine the evidence and formulate policy on that evidence. It was the opposite. The Government had its policy and was looking for ways to justify it, ignoring any potential drawbacks in the process.  I will go back again to my Bill and my motivation for bringing it forward. I have fundamental issues with the Government's approach but acknowledge the role that data centres play in modern life. I acknowledge our over-reliance on ICT as a tax base. This is an attempt to work with the Government. If we continue to allow data centres to develop at the current rate, even accounting for the new connection policy, we will see fossil fuel demand continue and emissions from the sector rise and rise. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration (Deputy Colm Brophy)  I welcome the opportunity to discuss the Labour Party's Private Members' Bill on electricity regulation. The Deputy mentioned it in his remarks, but I congratulate him on his first Bill in the House. Unfortunately, having given those congratulations, the Government proposes, as has been indicated, to reject the motion as we are satisfied that the CRU does not require additional powers conveyed upon it to support the furtherance of national climate objectives and that the existing statutory framework is sufficient.  The CRU's core statutory functions include, among others, regulating electricity markets, protecting energy consumers and enforcing critical energy safety frameworks. The explanatory memorandum of this Bill notes the CRU's statement in its 2025 proposed decision paper on large energy user connection policy and that the provisions of the climate action Act do not provide a sufficient legal basis to allow the CRU to explicitly mandate specific emissions reductions and offsetting measures for connection applicants. However, in this same document, the CRU states that section 9 of the Electricity Regulation Act 1999 provides the CRU with a basis to take account of renewable energy policy in the development of electricity connection policy. The subsequent publication of the CRU\u2019s large energy user connection policy is a clear example of the CRU using the sufficient statutory powers available to it to support Ireland's climate objectives.  Under this connection policy, new data centres are required to meet at least 80% of their annual demand with additional renewable electricity generated in the Republic of Ireland. This pioneering approach by CRU that new data centre demand must be accompanied by substantial additional renewable electricity generation in Ireland is intended to ensure that rising data centre demand provides significant positive support to the achievement of Ireland's wider decarbonisation objectives.  To address this point in detail, section 15 of the Climate Action and Low Carbon Development Act 2015, as amended, provides that every public body must, so far as practicable, perform its functions in a manner consistent with: the climate action plan; national long-term climate action strategy; national adaptation framework; and approved sectoral adaptation plans; the furtherance of the national climate objective; and the objective of mitigating greenhouse gas emissions and adapting to the effects of climate change in the State. The Commission for Regulation of Utilities, CRU, is a public body to which these requirements apply and with which they actively comply.  Section 9 of the Electricity Regulation Act 1999 further provides for the CRU, in the carrying out of its duties, to have regard to a range of matters including: to promote the continuity, security and quality of supplies of electricity and promote the use of renewable, sustainable or alternative forms of energy. These legal powers, as employed in the CRU\u2019s large energy user policy document, demonstrate that the CRU has sufficient legal competence to impose requirements on large energy users to employ emissions reduction and offsetting measures. The Bill, as proposed, therefore aims to address a perceived gap in legislation which does not, in the view of Government, exist. On this basis, the Government proposes to reject this motion.  Data centres are central to Ireland\u2019s modern economy and play a critical enabling role across a wide range of digitally intensive sectors, enhancing the competitiveness of the Irish economy. They strengthen Ireland\u2019s position as a strategic knowledge intensive regional hub for the ICT sector and also support broader retention and expansion of existing investment that support billions of euro in annual economic value for Ireland via high-wage employment, tax receipts and supplier ecosystems. According to independent analysis, the industry employs 19,500 people directly. Our technology sector, underpinned by data centre infrastructure, accounts for approximately 7% of our total workforce and over half of total services exports. Their value is evident and the Government remains committed to supporting sustainable data centre development as a result. It is important to note that unlike countries like the Netherlands, Germany and the UK, Ireland does not host large, energy-intensive industrial sectors. Ireland's industrial electricity demand is primarily concentrated in our digital economy. This is our core energy intensive industry. Germany and other countries consume more electricity to support their heavy industry sites like car manufacturing, steel, and chemicals.  Connecting such large energy loads is a challenge that many energy systems across the world are grappling with. In response, the Government\u2019s Large Energy-User Action Plan, LEAP, published in 2026, sets out a plan-led approach for very large and energy intensive investments, including data centres, which, due to scale and energy consumption, will benefit from co-ordinated national infrastructure planning. The LEAP will enable Ireland to capture next generation investment in a planned and managed way and unlock significant associated economic, employment and renewable energy opportunities. Our approach will ensure that sustainability, affordability, competitiveness and energy security remain central to policy.  Through effective and focused policies and measures, we are making tangible progress towards objectives of decarbonisation, while supporting sustained economic growth for wider societal benefits. Ireland now has its lowest level of greenhouse gas emissions in 35 years. We are decoupling population growth and economic success from emissions. The Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, now projects that we are close to meeting our first carbon budget, and a reduction in emissions of between 13% and 25% by 2030. The work remains ongoing right across government to implement climate mitigation measures.  Ireland is at the forefront of transitioning to an electricity system dominated by variable renewable energy sources, such as wind and solar, and we have achieved record-breaking levels of renewable electricity generation, reducing our reliance on imported fossil fuels. Most notably, emissions from electricity generation are estimated to decrease by between 53% and 60% by 2030. Significant investment has taken place in increasing the technical flexibility of Ireland\u2019s power system to enhance its renewable integration capabilities. The electricity system in Ireland can operate with up to 75% wind and solar at any given moment. The International Energy Agency, IEA, recognised this achievement as remarkable and a global milestone. Ireland currently has over 8 GW of renewable generation capacity, over 5 GW of onshore wind and over 3 GW of solar PV installed, with hydro, biomass and other small sources contributing the remainder.  The Government has also prioritised unprecedented investment in our grid of up to \u20ac18.9 billion, underpinned by \u20ac3.5 billion Government equity investment. This investment will ensure that Ireland's electricity grid continues to provide capacity to support the delivery of Government targets across society and the economy. This investment supports expanding our electricity generation, with a particular priority on renewable energy sources.  In addition to investment, the Government is accelerating the roll-out of renewable energy in Ireland by identifying and addressing barriers to the deployment of renewable energy through dedicated cross-sectoral expert groups. These include the accelerating renewable electricity task force, for onshore generation and the offshore wind delivery task force for offshore. These groups bring together senior officials from Departments and State agencies to identify, co-ordinate and prioritise the policies required to support the rapid development of renewable electricity generation. These investments, policies and measures demonstrate that the Government is fully committed to delivering on Ireland\u2019s climate ambition across all sectors and to progressing climate action in a planned and coherent way. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"R\u00e9ada Cronin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy R\u00e9ada Cronin  Ba mhaith liom mo bhu\u00edochas a ghabh\u00e1il leis an Teachta Ahern as ucht an Bhille seo a thabhairt os comhair na D\u00e1la. I congratulate him on bring forward his first Bill. I am sorry that the Government is not supporting it, but Sinn F\u00e9in certainly will be doing so.  The issue of the explosion in the number of these monstrous data centres for AI is once again before the House. Last week, I and na Teachta\u00ed Pa Daly and Deputy Conway-Walsh tabled a Bill which would ensure that any new connections to the grid would be for public benefit as opposed to solely for private profit. We have repeatedly seen cases of data centres being given priority access to the grid ahead of much-needed housing developments. They are hoovering up energy while simultaneously driving up the price of household energy bills. Ireland is a complete outlier in the context of the number of data centres operating and the amount of energy they consume. The UN has cited Ireland as a cautionary tale because of the amount of our energy we are giving to data centres. On average, these data centres consume about 3% of the energy in the EU whereas in Ireland, they consume almost 24% of our electricity. This is absolutely staggering and completely unsustainable.  Last week, my Sinn F\u00e9in colleague Lynn Boylan MEP published a report on how ordinary households are footing the bill for network expansion driven by and for data centres. The CRU, which ultimately decides who pays for the expansion of our grid, instead of charging those who are driving the demands, such as large energy users and data centres, is socialising the cost. It is spreading costs across all energy users, even though its mandate was that it was set up to protect the consumer. It is charging ordinary workers and families for the enormous amounts of energy that data centres consume. Instead of charging the data centres, this Government is rolling out the red carpet for them and making the taxpayer fund their industry before sites are even developed. What is all this for anyway? This question is being been asked more and more. Unfortunately, the answer might not necessarily be one we want to hear.  In recent days, the world's leading AI companies warned the UN Security Council of the risks posed by AI to humanity. Anthropic CEO, Dario Amodei, said that if managed poorly, he believes AI could be a risk to humanity as a whole. We have repeatedly heard these warnings from different individuals who either are or were heavily involved in the AI sector. People will have different opinions about this issue. Some will claim that there is catastrophising and scaremongering taking place, while others may believe that we really are ten years from extinction. The whole thing sounds pretty mad and is very sci-fi. Last week I highlighted the fact that people are saying that this could be corporate or regulatory capture or some kind of stock market scam.  Whatever your opinion is - and more intelligent people than me seem to be worried about it - it is clear that there is a certain unknown with AI and that Ireland, as a country with ten times more data centres than any other per capita , is driving its growth. The truth is that we do not know what AI will look like in ten years. Ultimately, we cannot legislate for companies in foreign countries that are in the vanguard when it comes to this technology. However, we can protect people against the negative impacts they are having on people\u2019s energy bills and living standards. That is our job as legislators.  In my constituency of Kildare North, there Herbata plans to build a data centre. This project has been much opposed by the residents. They have cited issues such as noise pollution, the water that will be required and the increase in their electricity bills. This data centre, for which planning permission has been obtained, subject to an appeal from An Coimisi\u00fan Plean\u00e1la, is on 70 acres. In other words, an area of land eight times the size of Croke Park. The residents have mentioned the pressure this will put on the local grid and the fact that Herbata will be given priority access to the grid over new housing developments in the future. We saw how that happened in Lucan recently with the substation that was meant to provide energy to houses but which is being used to power a data centre instead.  The Herbata site is also going to need six gas generators connected to it because, although it is meant to provide its own energy, it is going to have need a back-up. At a recent meeting of climate committee, the Irish Congress of Trade Unions stated that as we are at full employment, we only have so many workers. Construction workers cannot all be building data centres; we need houses. That is what the people in my constituency want. Parents want their kids to be able to afford to live in the places in north Kildare in which they have grown up and not to be obliged to move two or three hours down the road, because that will mean that they will not see them or their grandchildren as often.  According to research published by Maynooth University today, the State could have built 50,000 new homes using the capital invested in data centres from 2019 to 2024. That is crazy. Those in Fianna F\u00e1il had their knickers in a knot last night about sports grants being announced by Fine Gael. It is a pity they do not get upset about the number of people who are homeless or who need homes or the number who are on waiting lists. All they are worried about are sports grants. Anyway, I digress. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  In the nicest possible way, Deputy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"R\u00e9ada Cronin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"R\u00e9ada-Cronin.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy R\u00e9ada Cronin  The Herbata data centre is coupled with another potentially monstrous data centre on the Jigginstown site right next door. My constituents are particularly worried about this and the impact it is going to have. The centre at Jigginstown is going to be twice the size of the Herbata one, which would make it 16 times the size of Croke Park. The Herbata data centre on is going to use three times the amount of electricity currently used by homes in Kildare. We just cannot keep up. This is unsustainable. People in Naas feel powerless . The Jigginstown centre is going to be a mere 100 m from houses and schools in the area. People are frightened at that prospect and want accountability. They expect it in a democratic society. Public participation in major connection decisions must be provided for by the Government if it is going to continue down the road of building data centres in exchange for a pat on the head from the tech bros.  We have been put in a position whereby we are going to have to hold a protest on the doorstep of Kildare County Council on Monday next, 28 September, at 1.30 p.m., at which we will councillors across the county to reverse the decision to zone the land at Jigginstown for data centres. A motion in this regard is being brought forward by a Sinn F\u00e9in councillor because zoning of land is about the only power councillors have any more. I urge all those in the Kildare area to join us and show their support.  In relation to the Bill before us, Sinn F\u00e9in wants to see low emissions from any connection to electricity transmission and distribution systems. We also believe in the social obligations the State has to build houses. This Bill, in its current form - I am sorry for this - could potentially lead to housing developments being rejected on the grounds that the emissions relating to them would be too high during construction. I am sure we could work on that on Committee Stage. We will be supporting the Bill. While we want to see high-quality houses that are affordable and environmentally-friendly being built. I do not think that Deputy Ahern or the Labour Party would want to see homes not built because their emissions do not meet a certain threshold. I am sure that is not the intention behind the Bill.  The Bill tabled by Deputies Pa Daly and Rose-Conway Walsh and I last week would set out a statutory prioritisation for connections that are of public benefit, including housing developments, which is a better way of ensuring public need is put before data centres\u2019 greed. We must ensure that we prioritise housing, school and hospital connections to the grid and not facilitate the insatiable quest for more AI that has been so recklessly brought to our shores by this short-sighted Government. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  I thank Deputy Ahern and the Labour Party for bringing forward this Bill. I congratulate the Deputy on his first Bill . He will be happy to hear that, unlike the Government, we will be supporting it. We support what is an attempt to place some limits on data centres being automatically allowed to connect to the national electricity grid, regardless of any consideration of environmental and social costs. We think the time for moderate measures has passed. We should not be having any more data centres connecting to the grid. That is the position of Friends of the Earth, which was very well put forward at the AI committee this week. It has long been the position of People Before Profit. In 2021, former Deputy Br\u00edd Smith brought forward our first Bill in respect of this matter. That Bill would have stopped any more data centres being built. At that stage, Ireland was already an absolute outlier in terms of the number of data centres we had and the percentage of our electricity being used. We are even worse now. Whenever the various data centres that are in the process of being built are completed, we will be even worse again.  It cannot be said too many times that data centres are already eating up about a quarter of our electricity supply nationally. People should know that data centres are using 80% of our electricity in Dublin. The new report by Dr. Se\u00e1n Fearon, Dr. Patrick Bresnihan and Dr. Patrick Brodie should be read by everyone. Its title is very important. It is: How We All Pay for Big Tech: the Social, Economic and Environmental Costs of Data Centres in Ireland. Up until recently, this has been a debate where most people would have been critical of data centres. Most people do not agree with the Government's approach of giving big tech everything that it wants. However, we maybe have not been clear enough that there is a price to be paid by people as a consequence of the Government being completely captured by big tech.  Those costs are multiple and environmental. Since 2017, every bit of extra capacity added to the grid from renewable energy has been taken up by data centres. As a result, we are not getting any closer to moving to 100% renewables. I refer to the cost in terms of housing, the opportunity cost of 50,000 homes and the construction jobs that I will get onto maybe later. Instead of building data centres - most of the 19,000 jobs the Minister claimed were directly involved are construction jobs - those people could be involved in building homes. I refer also to: the cost in terms of connecting homes to the grid; the day-to-day financial costs, with hundreds of euro paid by every household in this country as a consequence of the data centres using up so much of our electricity and then pushing us up to the expensive electricity generation and into gas; the extra network charges; and the impact in regard to water. There is excellent stuff in the report to which I refer regarding our water usage. The costs are multiple, and what you see is the Government deciding that, right down the line, big tech will come before people.  What is in the report in respect of water is new. When controversy arose in the context of the hosepipe ban over the summer, the Government pointed to dated and limited Irish Water information to say, \"No, this is tiny\". However, what the report to which I refer provides in an estimate for the first time of overall water usage by data centres. Previous estimates have been limited to their metered water consumption, mainly for cooling purposes, but a much greater factor is the water used in producing electricity for them. The authors of the report estimate that this is equivalent to the water consumption of 340,600 homes, or 18.5% of Irish households. I have already made the point about the 50,000 homes that could have been built if we had not misallocated capital resources to data centres over the course of five years.  I want to talk a little about the KPMG report.  Over \u20ac110,000 was paid by the public to produce a junk science report on the supposed economic benefits of data centres. First drafts were not junk science enough, so the Department had to go back to KPMG and ask it to remove any reference to the extra costs paid for by the public, which was originally in the terms of reference. The Department asked the consultants not to include any reference to opportunity costs in housing or public transport. The email from the Department to KPMG could not have been clearer. It said:  ... the exec summary needs to present a strong narrative that considers the full gamut of the economic analysis and provides the evidence base that supports the position that we should continue to further develop our data-centre landscape post-2030 in the context of our climate objectives.  Why are we paying for a report that the Government has already written the conclusions of? Why is the public paying for something like this? We are trying to have a debate in society about whether this is good and whether we should go further, and the Government is using public money to get a report where the outcome is predetermined not by the people who are paying for it, who are the public, but by the Government that is directing where the usage will be.  There is really useful stuff in the new report that exposes the ridiculous methodology used by the consultants. KPMG went over the top in meeting that request from the Government by producing a report in which it came up with a hyperinflated figure of 876,000 jobs in the country being dependent on data centres. The new report reveals that the methodology used to arrive at the figure was to include, for example, a surgeon working within 50 km of a data centre as one of those 876,000 workers. It did the same for a paediatrician or anyone working in a hospital that is located within 50 km of a data centre. Each of those jobs was counted as being dependent on data centres. Obviously, this is ridiculous. The Minister of State gave a figure of 19,000. When you dig down into the KPMG report, however, the figure for direct jobs is 3,300. That is it. The majority of the rest of the jobs are construction jobs, and those workers could instead be in the building of socially useful things like homes in order to address the housing crisis.  This all illustrates how captured by corporations, and big tech in particular, this Government is. It is willing to do anything big tech wants, and that is the role it is playing within the European Union. What is emerging about the Government's role in trying to strip away the right to privacy of not just Irish but European citizens at the behest of big tech is absolutely shocking. The new digital omnibus compromise proposal from the Irish Presidency proposes to end the right of European citizens to the privacy of their personal data in circumstances where that data is used for AI purposes. That is shocking. The Government does not have the courage to stand over that position, but it is very clear if you read the proposal from the Irish Presidency. It is a giveaway of personal data to big-tech corporations. That is the role the Government is playing within the European Union. It is driving a deregulation agenda with all these different omnibuses, but especially with the digital omnibus in this case in order to facilitate a blanket exemption from GDPR rules on the use of personal data for AI.  Then there is the AI summit happening as part of the European Council. The Government has said how great it is that it is doing this. The Minister of State, Deputy Smyth, told the AI committee yesterday that this \"will be a timely opportunity for stakeholders from all walks of society and from across the globe to discuss and shape how we can collectively address these topical matters.\" People should go to the website of this AI summit. There is a huge list of speakers. There must be 50 of them. There is not a single critical voice. There is not a single trade unionist to represent the views of workers who are affected by AI and who might lose their jobs as a result of it. There is not a single climate scientist to talk about the impact of AI. There is not a single critical academic or independent civil society person. It is just big tech. Think of any big-tech company in the world and it is going to be there. Despite this, the Minister of State tried to claim that the summit is for stakeholders from all walks of society. When challenged, she said that of course it is industry-based. Thus, it is not from all across society, is it? The outcome is predetermined, just like the KPMG report. The AI summit is similarly about promoting AI in the interests of big tech.  This has been a bad week though for the Government on AI and data centres. It comes after the bad week the Government last week. People are waking up to the impact of data centres on electricity prices, energy usage and the degrading of culture, education and so on. That is happening across the world. In America, there is a powerful movement that is succeeding in stopping data centres being built in various states. Meanwhile, the Irish Government is saying that it will accept what is the toxic waste of the 21st century. However, people in this country are growing in confidence and saying that they will not take it. They will not take it in their communities and they do not agree that we should be using more than a quarter of our electricity for these big-tech data centres. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Heneghan  Gabhaim m\u00edle bu\u00edochas leis an Teachta Ahern for bringing this Bill forward. I agree with him about the fair question. The LEUs across our grid need to come up with solutions as to how they power themselves, how they are benefiting communities and how they are actually contributing. That is where I agree with him in the context of the Bill I brought forward, but there some parts of this Bill I will not be able to support. It is generally just the threshold and how I think the Bill might, in its current form, not only apply to data centres but also any other small industry, factory or apartment development. If that could be amended, maybe I could support the Bill. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ciar\u00e1n Ahern","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ciar\u00e1n Ahern  I am open to amendments. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Heneghan  Good. I look forward to working with the Deputy on my Bill.  I like what the Deputy is trying to do with the Bill. What we really agree on and always will is that section 34 needs to amended. The CRU needs to be at the centre of this. As the Deputy and I know from our work on the climate and energy committee, there is a finger-pointing act going because no one wants to be responsible. Giving more powers to the CRU is something both our Bills are trying to do. I commend the Deputy on the fact that the principle is definitely right. I look forward to working with him in the coming term, including on the committee, to solve this problem. However, the way the Bill is currently formatted adds a hurdle and could add a problem. I understand that the Deputy is trying to make it so that large energy users should not be able to connect to the grid too easily, but it projects the weight onto all. With the new condition he has put in, the measures should and can be phased in after connection. However, the Bill does not say what happens if these are not met.  I agree with the Deputy that all LEUs need to cut their emissions. This is something we have to tackle. The different way I am approaching it is that under section 37, a direct line from a generator to a user is effectively blocked. As a result, my Bill would repeal the section and replace it with a clearer system similar to what an Teachta Ahern is doing here, all run by the CRU. I agree that the CRU must decide on an application quicker. I agree that the criteria for the decisions on connections must be objective and non-discriminatory. There can be no disproportionate costs for procedures. Something I would love to see and which the Deputy's Bill alludes to is that if there is another grid connection for an LEU, which could be a data centre, there should be a community benefit fund directly proportionate to the amount of energy the LEU is taking.  The CRU also has to be able to approve a whole class of direct lines, and that is where the private wires Bill I am trying to progress would come in. Smaller producers like schools, nursing homes and GAA clubs should be able to share energy more quickly when they are not using it. That is something I think the Minister of State would agree with. I ask him to take the principle of Deputy Ahern's Bill that LEUs should and need to meet their climate responsibilities. The different approach I am taking is one whereby we would give them easier tools to meet those responsibilities. Private wires and direct lines will help this, with clear rules that the CRU will impose and a direct community benefit fund that will be proportionate to the savings of a direct line. Then we will not need to force climate action at the connection point. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Electricity Regulation (Climate Action and Connection to Distribution and Transmission Systems) Bill 2025: Second Stage [Private Members]"}]}}]},"contextDate":"2026-09-24"},{"debateRecord":{"house":{"showAs":"34th D\u00e1il","committeeCode":"","houseCode":"dail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/house\/dail\/34","chamberType":"house","houseNo":"34"},"chamber":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/def\/house\/dail","showAs":"D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann"},"lastUpdated":"2026-09-24T09:00:53+00:00","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-23\/debate\/main","formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-23\/debate\/mul@\/main.xml"},"pdf":null},"date":"2026-09-23","counts":{"contributorCount":159,"divisionCount":10,"debateSectionCount":24,"questionCount":0,"billCount":5},"debateType":"debate","debateSections":[{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-23\/debate\/dbsect_2","debateType":"topical","bill":null,"showAs":"\u00c1bhair Shaincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Matters","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aindrias Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aindrias Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Aindrias Moynihan)  I wish to advise the House of the following matters in respect of which notice has been given under Standing Order 39 and the name of the Member in each case:  Deputy Emer Currie - To discuss the abolition of the deemed disposal rule.  Deputy Albert Dolan - To discuss access to planned residential placements for adults with intellectual disabilities.  Deputy Duncan Smith - To discuss the loss of the remains or partial remains of unidentified bodies.  Deputy Paul Lawless - To discuss the future of a school in County Mayo.  Deputy Se\u00e1n Kyne - To discuss the status of a new school building in County Galway.  Deputy Matt Carthy - To discuss funding for a public swimming pool in Carrickmacross.  Deputy Conor Sheehan - To discuss the funding of CCTV schemes for Limerick city.  Deputy P\u00e1draig O'Sullivan - To discuss lack of resources and staffing issues at Cork University Hospital.  Deputy Tom Brabazon - To discuss the new school building at Gaelchol\u00e1iste Reachrann, Dublin 13.  Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa - To discuss the difficulty in obtaining an involuntary committal for mental health services.  Deputy James O'Connor - To discuss public transport services in the east Cork area.  Deputy Louise O'Reilly - To discuss the need for EV charging infrastructure to be located in developments.  Deputy Gary Gannon - To discuss the development of intergenerational community hubs.  Deputies Richard Boyd Barrett and Paul Murphy - To discuss the upcoming Ireland-Israel football match.  Deputy Thomas Gould - To discuss the imminent closure of unit 1, Sarsfield Court and the vacant units on the site .  Deputy John Clendennen - To discuss recurring water supply disruptions affecting Birr, County Offaly and concerns regarding the reliability of the network and communication with affected residents.  Deputies Conor D. McGuinness and David Cullinane - To discuss transport and connectivity in Waterford.  Deputy Malcolm Byrne - To discuss the need for improvements to the Dublin to Rosslare rail line, in particular for passengers south of Wicklow town.  Deputies Cathy Bennett and Natasha Newsome Drennan - To discuss the failure of BreastCheck to achieve mammogram targets. To discuss the failure of BreastCheck to achieve mammogram targets.  The matters raised by Deputies Cathy Bennett and Natasha Newsome Drennan; Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa; Deputy Conor Sheehan; Deputy Tom Brabazon; and Deputy Se\u00e1n Kyne have been selected for discussion. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"\u00c1bhair Shaincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Matters"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-23\/debate\/dbsect_3","debateType":"topical","bill":null,"showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":false,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-23\/debate\/dbsect_4","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Health Screening Programmes","counts":{"speechCount":11,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-23\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_4","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Natasha Newsome Drennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  Over 3,500 new breast cancer cases arise in the State every year. It is absolutely shocking to say that 20% of the scheduled examinations did not take place last year. This should be seen as a red flag for Government and a huge concern for us all. The Minister needs to understand why this is happening and seek to address it immediately, whether through advertisements, education, more flexibility in the service in terms of missed appointments, and any other mechanism necessary. However, last year is not the full story of the missed targets. The missed targets over the past three years amount to 122,334. These can be taken in tandem with figures released to Sinn F\u00e9in earlier this year that show 45% of breast cancer surgeries are not happening within the recommended timeframe. With a growing and ageing population which will see the number of women eligible increase from 500,000 in 2019 to 700,000 by the end of the decade, the picture painted is one that should be deeply concerning for the future. It is not sufficient to simply increase targets and expect everything else to flow. We have seen the outworkings of that in terms of HRT, blister packs and so on. What I want to hear from the Minister of State is her comprehensive plan to set this right now - not just targets, but the substance. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Natasha Newsome Drennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan  In little over a week we will mark the beginning of cancer awareness month. This should be a time when we can talk about the great progress being made in fighting cancer across the State. While progress is being made in some areas, which is positive and should be strongly welcomed, the national target for mammograms has been missed for a third consecutive year, and not by any small amount; it has been missed by 46,000. That is 46,000 women who should have been scanned. While the numbers of those being scanned are reaching record highs, we must ask why these targets are being missed by such a vast amount. If breast cancer is detected at stage 1, 99% of women will survive but survival drops to 37% if detected at stage 4. Data suggests that nearly one third of women are not getting breast cancer surgery in time. Women's lives should not be a statistic. These delays are crippling families with the fear of the unknown and reducing survival rates. University Hospital Waterford's webpage states that the hospital \"provides a high quality service which addresses all aspects of care for women affected by breast cancer\". Therefore, what is happening? Have there been cutbacks in the hospital? What multi-annual investment in cancer care will be seen to address demand and to prevent these backlogs increasing? Behind each and every one of these figures is a mother, a daughter, a sister and a grandmother. The devastation to families caused by failures to detect breast cancer early is absolutely immense. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Mary Butler)  I thank Deputies Bennet and Newsome Drennan for this opportunity to discuss the important matter of breast screening. I am taking this Topical Issue on behalf of the Minister for Health, Deputy Carroll MacNeill. I genuinely thank the Deputies for raising it. It is really important. The more awareness we can bring to breast cancer screening, the better. It is not often I get the opportunity. I will be in the Seanad at 10.30 a.m. answering a similar question and I welcome that. I am standing here as, I assume, the only woman who has availed of BreastCheck for those aged 50 and over. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  No, I have too. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mary Butler  The Deputy certainly does not look old enough. I am going to draw on my own lived experience in relation to this because is really important. If we only take one thing away from today it is that we urge every eligible woman to attend for breast screening when they are called as the numbers are only at 70%. The last time I attended was two years ago in the summer. I remember arriving at about 11.05 a.m., five minutes late, and I apologised to the nurse on duty who told me not to worry as I was the first person to arrive that day. She said that when the sun was shining unfortunately the screening was not a priority for people. It is really important that it is noted on the floor of the D\u00e1il that people turn up for only two out of every three appointments. The question is what we do to improve that and to look for solutions.  Enhancing Ireland's cancer screening programme is a priority for the Minister for Health and for all of us in the House. These programmes are a vital component of our health services. Breast cancer is the most common non-invasive cancer in women, with over 3,500 cases diagnosed in Ireland every year. About one third of these are detected through screening. BreastCheck, Ireland's national breast screening programme, screens women aged 50 to 69 years of age. It aims to detect breast cancer at the earliest possible stage and provide assessment and access to onward care for women who need further interventions. It operates four regional screening units and 24 mobile units serving 54 locations across the country. In 2025, BreastCheck screened 173,443 women, the highest number in its history. However, the HSE acknowledged that this was below the target it set itself for that year.  The Government has made significant investments in cancer screening programmes in recent years. This includes improvements to infrastructure, staffing and technology, and the Minister for Health understands from the national screening service that these improvements include a new patient database system. This is a modern system that simplifies and streamlines workflows for BreastCheck's team. It enables real-time data tracking of screening a participant's journey and helps address the service gaps. The HSE has also implemented a streamlined appointment system and reorganised radiography staff to increase weekday appointments using its current resources. Since 2023, the NSS has recruited new consultants and senior radiographers, secured additional recruitment funding and expanded training places. BreastCheck has partnered with University College Cork to launch a postgraduate mammography certification in Ireland. This is really important because it enables mammographers to train in Ireland. Three new mobile screening units have been added since 2020, bringing the total number to 24. BreastCheck continues to commission new mobile screening units and plan for additional screening infrastructure. BreastCheck has been engaged on inviting women at higher risk, those waiting longest, newly eligible women, and women from marginalised groups who may face barriers to screening. We really want to encourage all women to attend their appointments or to reschedule them. Filling every slot helps to ensure that more women receive screenings. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  As I have said before, we need to make BreastCheck more visible so people know to have their breast checks done. The HSE and BreastCheck are failing too many people, with patients on trolleys, years-long waiting lists, delayed diagnoses, overcrowding in hospitals and families just left in limbo right across the whole of the HSE, not just in BreastCheck. Just in my locality of Cavan and Monaghan this week, there has been a patient lying on the floor. I realise that it is not about BreastCheck but I thought I would bring it up with the Minister of State here today. It is absolutely horrendous that we have people lying on the floors in our hospitals and patients who cannot get their BreastCheck screenings. Despite the millions being spent by the HSE, people still are not being seen in the timely manner needed. The public deserves more in every area under the HSE. I ask the Minister of State to take this on board. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Natasha Newsome Drennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan  I know a woman in my community who found a lump. She went to her GP straight away. She did everything right. She got her referral for an appointment but had to wait seven weeks to be seen, only to be told then that she needed an urgent ultrasound and a mammogram but would have to wait three to four months. This was despite the presence of the lump and a history of breast cancer in her family. Her own sister had it at 36. That should be setting off alarm bells. Four months later, she got her scan and a biopsy and received a positive diagnosis of breast cancer. She has dense breast tissue and needs an MRI scan as a result. First, she was told it would take two to three weeks. A day later, she got a phone call and was told she would be waiting another eight weeks. That is over six months of waiting that this woman has had to endure, all while the cancer is growing. How is it acceptable to leave a woman waiting like that for an urgent scan? The woman, Linda, would like to ask why she is in this situation and how many more women are just like her. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mary Butler  As Deputies will know, I cannot talk about individual cases on the floor of the D\u00e1il. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Natasha Newsome Drennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan  Nobody wants to talk about it. I sense it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mary Butler  Sorry, but it is not an over-and-back. The most important thing we can do leaving here today is to encourage women, first and foremost, to avail of screening. Only 70% of BreastCheck screenings are accessed every year. That means two out of every three women avail of the service. We can all agree that we should leave here today trying to encourage people to avail of it.  The second point is that one third of all breast cancers are detected through screening. I have a very good friend who, many years ago, went for her very first mammogram, was diagnosed with breast cancer and had a very positive outcome.  In relation to the cases both Deputies have raised, the circumstances are simply not acceptable to me as a woman or as a Minister of State in the Department of Health. It is not a situation we want to see arising. The HSE is making every effort to expand services.  The point made on visibility is important. Breast cancer is not something we should be hiding away. In Waterford, my constituency, the BreastCheck van is in the Regional Sports Centre for six months of the year and in Dungarvan Community Hospital for the other six. Every eligible woman aged from 50 to 69 in a particular area is invited to attend. Unfortunately, only two out of three do. Notwithstanding the case cited, it is important to get the message out that if a woman of any age notices a change in a breast, she should go to her GP immediately and get support in as timely a manner as possible.  I thank the Deputies for raising this. It is so important that we talk about women's health on the floor of the D\u00e1il. I will bring the Deputies' comments back to the Minister. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Natasha Newsome Drennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan  She knows about it. She has her email. Nobody is answering me. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Health Screening Programmes"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-23\/debate\/dbsect_5","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Mental Health Services","counts":{"speechCount":9,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-23\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_5","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aindrias Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  I thank the Minister of State for being here. It will not be the first time we have had this discussion. It is a very difficult discussion to deal with. We all know that in Ireland we have a history of it being far too easy to get an involuntary admission to mental health services. The problem is that, on some level, the pendulum has swung too far the other way. There can be difficulties at times. I am talking people who are obviously sick. While they may not be, from the Garda's point of view, an imminent danger to themselves or others, they are definitely in harmful circumstances and in mental anguish. At times, it looks like the State has washed its hands, and that is why many people may be attempting to do an awful lot of good work.  I will go through a number of examples without getting into any more detail than I need to. I dealt with the case of a man who had been put out of emergency accommodation. He had obviously breached the rules within this emergency accommodation. He had mental health issues and a long history of mental health issues. He was known to mental health services. There was an attempt at a voluntary admission whereby the Garda and a mental health social worker attempted to cajole him to go to Crosslanes. That did not work out. The problem is that this probably happened two weeks into the event. It probably took about six weeks before there was an authorised officer.  We are looking for more authorised officers who can deal specifically with these sorts of cases. If we were in the North or in Britain, it would probably be a lot easier for an authorised officer to deliver an involuntary admission. Therefore, we need to consider this. Obviously, a GP is needed and, as garda\u00ed will often say, GPs will generally not sign forms for involuntary admission, even in cases where they would at times believe it should happen. Whether it is a matter of guidelines, protocols or re-examining the legislation, we need to find a solution. There is a very wide conversation to be had.  I spoke to the Minister of State previously about a woman in similar circumstances who went months refusing help but needed help. I could not get into the issues that were impacting on her. The garda\u00ed had taken her in during really cold weather. She was dealt with and is in a better place at the minute but it just took far too long.  I also have an issue at the minute concerning a man who had previously been homeless and had been housed by Louth County Council. He is now having a recurrence of his mental health issues, which has happened previously. The problem, I assume, is that he is not taking his prescribed medication. There is probably street medication. Street tablets would be taken. He now has in his house a whole pile of people that neighbours would not necessarily want to have there, creating an awful lot of antisocial behaviour.  Louth County Council is attempting to address it. The question is how the response can be escalated. The Garda says that it is difficult for it to bring about an involuntary admission. Mental health services are not offering anything. There is talk, when dealing with circumstances like this, that maybe it is the HSE or the social inclusion and community activation programme that has to escalate the response but the protocols need to be understood.  I have two more cases. They relate to parents who are in really difficult situations but I will leave those for the next round. It is a matter of the overall solution that is required. I will talk to the Minister of State about some of these issues afterwards. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mary Butler  I thank the Deputy for raising this really important issue and for his persistent advocacy in relation to mental health.  The Mental Health Act 2001 sets out the current legal framework for the involuntary admission and treatment of people in inpatient mental health services, known as approved centres, where a person has a mental disorder within the meaning of the Act.  Even though I passed the Mental Health Act earlier this year through the Houses and the President signed it into law, it has not been enacted because there will be a lead-in time of approximately two years. It is very complex legislation and it deals specifically with involuntary detention, especially for those who do not have capacity.  On the thrust of what the Deputy is saying, involuntary admission involves a three-step process. First, an initial application may be made by a family member, a member of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, an authorised officer in the HSE or another person. We currently have 126 authorised officers around the country but we will be expanding that number considerably because, when the new Act comes into play, a member of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na will not have that authority anymore.  I expect to have approximately 500 authorised officers around the country.  Following the making of an application, the person is examined by a GP or other medical practitioner. Under the Act, if the medical practitioner believes the person has a mental disorder, they will then be referred to an approved centre for examination by a consultant psychiatrist. The consultant psychiatrist must certify that the person has a mental disorder and requires admission before an order to involuntarily admit that person is made.  For a person to have a mental disorder, there must be a likelihood of the person being an immediate and serious risk of harm to themselves or to others or, because of their condition, the person is likely to seriously deteriorate in the community and his or her detention is likely to be of materiel benefit to the person. To be clear, members of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na cannot admit anyone. They can recommend. They can ask for a consultant psychiatrist to look at a person and determine whether they should be voluntarily or involuntarily detained for their own safety.  The following is really important. To deprive someone of their liberty is a serious infringement of that person's human rights and must only be done when it is absolutely necessary and only in accordance with the robust legal safeguards. The decision to involuntarily admit someone under the Mental Health Act is a clinical decision and can only be made by a consultant psychiatrist. Just because a person may benefit from inpatient admission is not sufficient grounds to deprive them of their liberty. A person is entitled to refuse treatment for physical or mental health conditions. Only when a person meets the criteria for involuntary admission can they be admitted and treated without consent.  That said, I fully accept that many people experiencing homelessness and severe mental illness need more support. The answers cannot simply be to broaden the grounds for involuntary admission. We need services that are more responsive, more flexible and better able to meet people where they are, particularly those whose illnesses, housing circumstances and complex needs make it difficult to access or engage with traditional services. Our focus must be on reaching and engaging people earlier, building trust, and ensuring that care is available in ways that work for them before a crisis point is reached.  I have to be clear that a person's housing status does not affect their right to refuse care, provided they have the capacity to make decisions about their own care. That is why we are opening Solace Caf\u00e9s across the country. We have six open now. Three more are funded this year for Donegal, Mullingar and Kerry, and I hope to open many more next year, if I receive the financial support in the budget. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  I understand what the Minister of State is saying in relation to the lead-in that is required for the new Mental Health Act. However, even in the short term, is it the case that we need guidelines, whether they are being given to local authorities or GPs at times? We could all have an argument about what is immediate or serious harm and whether someone is going to seriously deteriorate. I would argue on the cases I have cited that there has at times been a deterioration that is very obvious, but people are afraid. Furthermore, I get the idea that, in a perfect scenario, we assume there is capacity, but we are dealing with issues where people are making really dreadful decisions that are impacting on themselves and others and, in some cases, are very dangerous.  On some levels, families do not have the capacity to start the forms and their interaction with mental health services can sometimes be imperfect. I accept that some of that is down to them seeing themselves as being constrained by rules, laws and resources, but I have seen circumstances where there had been an attempt. One of the young men has a diagnosis of schizophrenia and is off his tablets. The mother had previously had to get protection orders. He is living there and she is very worried that the situation is deteriorating. In fairness, there was an attempt at getting a voluntary admission, but it did not work. I will not even bother reading out the response I received from the HSE. We need to find a way to deal with this.  Just in the last day, a mother was in. Her son, who is 29, has a long history of mental illness. In some instances, mental illness has brought him into prison, but he does not want support at this point in time. They cannot get a referral from a GP. Community services have put him off the books and his mother needs a solution. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mary Butler  The Deputy mentioned several cases that I cannot speak to individually. However, I must be crystal clear that there are absolutely no circumstances where, if a consultant psychiatrist determines that a person must be involuntarily detained against their consent for their own safety or the safety of others, there is a resource issue. That is categorically not true. If we do not have enough capacity----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  It is about getting the person to that point. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mary Butler  The Deputy cannot throw out statements like that, saying it is a resource issue in relation to involuntary detention. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  People have to get them to the psychiatrist. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aindrias Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Aindrias Moynihan)  One speaker. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mary Butler  I am sorry, but Deputy \u00d3 Murch\u00fa must listen to the answer because we cannot just change a whole piece of legislation that has been there since 2001 for individual cases. We have to be very clear that there are huge criteria relating to how people are involuntarily detained, especially when they do not have capacity. We did not mention that today. We also did not mention the fact that, in a lot of these cases, there is a dual diagnosis of a mental disorder and drug addiction.  It has to be understood that it is not down to the garda, the family or the GP alone. In many instances, it is the family and GP working together. They make a referral to mental health services because they believe the person meets the criteria to be legally detained under the Act, and there is a legal framework to back it up. A consultant psychiatrist will then determine whether the person reaches the capacity or not. The capacity must be the likelihood of that person being an immediate and serious risk of harm to self or others or because of their condition the person is likely to seriously deteriorate in the community and his or her detention is likely to be of material benefit to the person. The department of psychiatry is not a place to put a person because they are homeless. We must be very clear on that. It is about all elements of the State coming together.  The Deputy might send me a couple of the cases he mentioned to see if I can be of any help to him. I know he is genuinely worried about them, but I have to work within the Act I currently have. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Mental Health Services"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-23\/debate\/dbsect_6","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Closed-Circuit Television Systems","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-23\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_6","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Ardagh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Conor Sheehan  I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Ardagh, for coming here this morning. It is good to have someone from the actual Department.  This feels to me a bit like Groundhog Day because it is my fourth time raising this issue. It is my second Topical Issue Debate, and I am effectively going to say the same thing I said ten months ago, so I sincerely hope that the Minister of State's Department has not given her the same reply as they gave another Minister ten months ago.  There is a comprehensive network of CCTV cameras in Limerick, 240 of which are monitored live. They were put in place for a specific reason, that being, we previously had a very violent feud in Limerick. They were put in place because, ten years ago this month, two children were burned alive in a car in Moyross. These cameras are stationed explicitly mainly in the city's four main regeneration areas, namely, Moyross, Southill, Ballinacurra Weston and St. Mary's Park. They were initially funded through economic social intervention funding through the regeneration process through the Department of housing. Regeneration has now concluded. That funding is being progressively wound down, which means there is a funding deficit every year to fund the ongoing live monitoring and maintenance of this camera network.  Last year, thankfully, the Mayor, John Moran, stepped in with his mayoral fund and plugged the gap of last year's funding deficit. He did that on the basis that he was asked by the Minister of State's Department and by the Minister for justice effectively for more time to deliver a permanent funding solution. We are now nearly a year on from that and a funding solution has not been forthcoming. This year, State funding is going to drop to \u20ac550,000, leaving a \u20ac660,000 shortfall that our local authority cannot absorb.  The issue is that, when I raise this issue, I get a response from the Minister of State's Department that intimates that I might be talking about community CCTV and that the Department can only fund CCTV up to \u20ac40,000. The issue here is that we have a specific, almost bespoke, case in Limerick because, unfortunately, we have had quite significant violence in the city.  The cameras have been transformative. There is a 70% prosecution rate with them. The tragic murder of Rose Hanrahan was effectively solved because the perpetrator was apprehended through the cameras. The chief superintendent and An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na have been clear this is one of the most important tools they have to carry out their day-to-day duties. If the Minister of State turns these off, she might as well take 20 or 30 garda\u00ed and bus them back to Templemore. This is something we have cross-party consensus on. My colleague, Senator Ryan, raised it in the Seanad recently. Deputy O'Dea raised it with the Minister, Deputy Chambers, recently and the Minister said he would endeavour to make sure the cameras do not have to be turned off.  A working group was supposed to be set up last year to deal with this issue. I would like to know, though maybe the Minister of State will have to come back to me with this, how many times that working group met. What were the outcomes of those meetings? I cannot get that information through parliamentary questions. Will the Minister of State and her Department agree to meet with Oireachtas Members from the mid-west and with the Mayor to find the solution to this? Will she agree, at least in principle, that the cameras cannot be turned off and that it would be detrimental to public safety and confidence in policing locally? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Ardagh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration (Deputy Catherine Ardagh)  I thank Deputy Sheehan for raising this matter. He said he has raised it on numerous occasions in this House. He outlined the huge success rate of CCTV in Moyross and Limerick. CCTV across the country makes us feel more secure in the community and in our own homes.  Community safety is a top priority for me, with delegated responsibility for youth justice, and for my Department. Everyone has the right to feel safe and free in their communities. Community CCTV plays a huge role in achieving this. CCTV in public places gives people a greater sense of security. It is also effective in deterring criminal activity and antisocial behaviour and in assisting with the investigation of crime.  The consideration and operation of community CCTV is a matter for the local authority concerned. As Minister of State, I have no role in the day-to-day operation of local authorities. Updates on individual schemes should be sought from the relevant local authority. CCTV infrastructure across the city and county continues to support community safety, assist Garda investigations and deter criminal activity and antisocial behaviour.  I am aware of concerns regarding future funding arrangements for the Moyross CCTV scheme. It is not straightforward in terms of who is responsible for the funding. The majority of funding for this scheme was previously provided through the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, together with significant support from the mayoral fund.  In August 2025, a business case was submitted to the Department of justice seeking funding for the retention of the Moyross CCTV scheme after the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage indicated its intention to reduce its financial contribution over time. In September 2025, the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, wrote to the Commissioner stating that the Department could not provide funding as the business case and application did not fall within the scope of the community CCTV scheme. The Minister met with the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, James Browne, and the Mayor of Limerick, John Moran, in November 2025 to discuss future funding arrangements. Following those discussions, a decision was taken that funding for 2026 would be provided through the mayoral fund.  My Department's position remains that the Moyross scheme should either continue to be funded, directly or indirectly, by the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, or be funded by the Mayor\u2019s office or Limerick City and County Council. I recognise the value placed on the scheme locally. Information provided by Limerick City and County Council points to extensive use of CCTV footage in Garda investigations and highlights the importance of the system in supporting public safety and criminal prosecutions, particularly where witness intimidation has historically been a concern.  I note the Deputy's asks on the working group, how many times it has met and the outcomes. I will have to come back to him on that. I will make a note of that today. I will also pass on his request for a meeting between Limerick Oireachtas Members and the Minister.  In relation to a commitment that the CCTV will not be turned off, as a junior Minister in the Department, I cannot give a full commitment today but I will come back to the Deputy. As the funding is at the moment divvied out by the Department of housing and the mayoral fund, maybe he is asking the wrong Department but I will come back to him with an answer on that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Conor Sheehan  My frustration is that the Department of housing and the Department of justice seem to be operating in silos in relation to this. They do not seem to talk to one another. We are talking about \u20ac600,000 per year to plug the gap and ensure the continuation of this service. The irony is not lost on me of Government putting \u20ac58 million directly into infrastructure for the Ryder Cup, while we are talking about the live monitoring of the CCTV network that keeps the people of Limerick safe - not just Limerick city, it goes into Limerick county as well.  The Minister for justice often talks about his belief in high-visibility policing, yet he is effectively going to allow An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na in Limerick to be blindfolded if the live monitoring ceases. This is incredibly serious. We have a feud bubbling up, particularly in the Ballinacurra Weston area. It needs the cameras. Cameras are very effective when garda\u00ed get reports from communities. The Minister of State represents a similar type of constituency. People are not inclined to come forward with specific reports when incidents occur but when garda\u00ed check the cameras, they clearly see what has happened. I do not want the people of Limerick to become collateral damage in a game of ping-pong between the Department of housing and the Department of justice. The Department of housing constantly states its position is that ESIF funding is gone, regeneration has concluded and, because of that, it no longer has a vehicle through which to fund it. Could we not at least sit down with all the relevant stakeholders to see if we can find a solution to this and allow the live monitoring to continue, so the safety of the people of Limerick is not put at risk? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Catherine Ardagh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Catherine-Ardagh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Catherine Ardagh  I represent a similar constituency with significant intergenerational disadvantage and intergenerational trauma. We do not have widespread CCTV in Dublin South-Central but I can absolutely see the benefit of it. The Deputy makes a compelling case for ensuring this deadlock in relation to funding is overcome. I will be certain to pass on his requests to the Department.  The Government is progressing nationally a new framework for the authorisation and operation of CCTV schemes through Part 5 of the Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na (Recording Devices) Act 2023. This will provide a modern and consistent legislative basis for CCTV schemes with clear responsibilities for An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na and local authorities. The Deputy will not have to come into the House and try to mediate who will be paying for this CCTV scheme. I am pleased the legislative and operational work required to support commencement is expected to be completed within the next few weeks. The new framework will support the continued development of CCTV as an important community safety tool and provide greater clarity on the operation of CCTV schemes.  I recognise the important contribution CCTV infrastructure makes across Limerick, including the Moyross scheme, and the value local communities place on such schemes. I welcome the engagement that has taken place between all relevant stakeholders regarding future arrangements. I look forward to continued co-operation between my Department, An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, Limerick City and County Council and other stakeholders to ensure CCTV infrastructure across Limerick continues to support safer and stronger communities into the future. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Closed-Circuit Television Systems"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-23\/debate\/dbsect_7","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Schools Building Projects","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-23\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_7","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Brabazon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Brabazon.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Tom-Brabazon.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Brabazon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Brabazon.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Tom-Brabazon.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Tom Brabazon  Is scoil dara leibh\u00e9al, l\u00e1n-Ghaeilge \u00ed Gaelchol\u00e1iste Reachrann. T\u00e1 s\u00ed lonnaithe i measc seomra\u00ed ranga at\u00e1 ar iasacht \u00f3n scoil b\u00e9al dorais. T\u00e1 prefabs in \u00fas\u00e1id aici chomh maith. Beagnach 25 bliain \u00f3 shin, gealladh go mbeadh foirgneamh \u00e1 shol\u00e1thar ag an Roinn chuig pobal na scoile, ach n\u00edl s\u00e9 sin tar \u00e9is tarl\u00fa go f\u00f3ill in ainneoin an ama sin ar fad. Tar \u00e9is na moille seo ar fad, t\u00e1 dul chun cinn beag d\u00e9anta againn. D\u2019imigh an foirgneamh amach le haghaidh tairiscint\u00ed an bhliain seo. Tugadh gealltanas d\u00fainn ar fad go mbeadh an t\u00f3g\u00e1il ag tos\u00fa sa r\u00e1ithe deireanach den bhliain, ach n\u00edor tharla s\u00e9 sin go f\u00f3ill agus an ch\u00e9ad trian den r\u00e1ithe sin beagnach imithe. T\u00e1 dalta\u00ed, foireann agus pobal na scoile ar fad ag fanacht r\u00f3fhada don scoil nua seo. Caithfear br\u00fa \u00e1irithe a chur ar an Roinn chun an scoil seo a shol\u00e1thar gan a thuilleadh moille. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Education and Youth (Deputy Hildegarde Naughton)  I thank the Deputy for raising this matter as it gives me the opportunity to outline to the D\u00e1il the current position in relation to the new school building of Gaelchol\u00e1iste Reachrann in Dublin 13. This school building project will cater for a long-term projected enrolment of 600 students with additional classrooms for children with special educational needs.  It is a project which has been a long time in development. The preliminary design stage 1 focused on assessing the most appropriate options for locating the new school building on the school site at Grange Community College. This work included site surveys and an assessment of impact on the existing Grange Community College school. The process confirmed the viability of the project on the Grange Community College site and enabled my Department to approve the project to stage 2A of the design process in February 2013. The design team submitted its stage 2A report in August 2015 and my Department authorised the design team to progress to stage 2B in February 2017. As the Deputy is aware, the original grant of planning was due to expire in December 2022. Due to changes to the planning Acts in September 2021, a new application was required and the final grant of planning permission was received in December 2023. I am pleased to inform the D\u00e1il that the invitation to tender issued late in the fourth quarter of 2025. Tenders have recently been returned, and the design team is currently carrying out a detailed review in order to submit the tender report to my Department. It is envisaged that construction will commence in the fourth quarter of 2026.  Since 2020, the Department of education has provided over \u20ac2 billion in capital funding for Dublin schools. Over this period, a total of 300 schools have been upgraded through provision of either a new school building, extension, modular accommodation or climate pathfinder projects. Some 20 school projects to go to tender or construction in 2026 and 2027 were included in the NDP implementation plan, including Gaelchol\u00e1iste Reachrann. There are currently 47 large scale extension, modular or climate pathfinder projects in Dublin under construction. There are also 53 projects under way through the climate action summer works scheme. In addition, since 2020 a total of 541 special classes have been sanctioned in Dublin, of which 140 were sanctioned for September 2026. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Brabazon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Brabazon.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Tom-Brabazon.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Tom Brabazon  Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an Aire. Dh\u00e1 bhliain \u00f3 shin, bhrath dalta\u00ed, tuismitheoir\u00ed, bord bainist\u00edochta agus foireann na scoile nach raibh aon dul as acu ach dul amach ar an mb\u00f3thar ag ag\u00f3id\u00edocht de bharr na moille agus easpa soil\u00e9ireachta \u00f3 thaobh spriocdh\u00e1ta\u00ed don pr\u00f3iseas t\u00f3g\u00e1la de. Is m\u00f3r an n\u00e1ire at\u00e1 ar an Roinn gur th\u00f3g s\u00e9 25 bliain le teacht chuig an bpointe seo. D\u2019imigh dalta\u00ed, a thosaigh a gcuid oideachais dara leibh\u00e9il leis an ngealltanas go mbeadh scoil nua ar f\u00e1il d\u00f3ibh, tr\u00edd an c\u00f3ras i sean prefabs a bh\u00ed briste agus fuar. T\u00e1 na dalta\u00ed sin cr\u00edochnaithe lena gcuid oideachais anois. N\u00edl s\u00e9 seo maith go leor. Cathain a bheidh na tarrac\u00f3ir\u00ed agus na t\u00f3g\u00e1laithe ar an su\u00edomh ag obair ar an tionscnamh \u00e1irithe seo? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Hildegarde Naughton  It is envisaged that construction will commence in the fourth quarter of 2026. When I came into this Department earlier this year, Gaelchol\u00e1iste Reachrann was announced as part of the 105 school building projects on the NDP list, so this is a priority for my Department and, as I have said, it is due to go to commence construction in the fourth quarter of this year. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Schools Building Projects"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-23\/debate\/dbsect_8","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Schools Building Projects","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-23\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Kyne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Kyne.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Kyne.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Kyne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Kyne.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Kyne.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Se\u00e1n Kyne  I thank the Ceann Comhairle's office for choosing this Topical Issue. It is a matter close to my heart. It is my local school and my former primary school that I attended until 1987, and I thank the Minister for attending here this morning in person.  I acknowledge that Scoil Mhuire was one of 105 schools on the list of priority school buildings for the years 2026-27 as part of the \u20ac1.6 billion investment for this initial tranche published in January of this year. I thank the Minister for her involvement in this and for including Scoil Mhuire, Maigh Cuilinn ar an liosta.  At present, there are 383 pupils enrolled in Scoil Mhuire. There are 24 teachers, seven special needs assistants and an administrative principal, Terry Kavanagh. I acknowledge Mr. Kavanagh's work and that of the board of management and I thank previous boards of management for their dedication on this project over the years.  The brief of this project is the demolition of the existing and original single-storey building and the development of a new 16-classroom primary school with two classrooms for pupils with special educational needs at the current though enlarged site in Moycullen.  Tr\u00e9asla\u00edm an obair at\u00e1 d\u00e9anta ag an Aire, an Teachta Naughton, an pr\u00edomhoide, Terry Kavanagh, agus an bord bainist\u00edochta. T\u00e1 Scoil Mhuire ar cheann de na 105 scoil ar an liosta a d\u2019fhoilsigh an tAire i m\u00ed Ean\u00e1ir. Teasta\u00edonn scoil nua go g\u00e9ar. T\u00e1 383 dalta ag freastal ar an scoil faoi l\u00e1thair. I measc na foirne, t\u00e1 24 m\u00fainteoir, seacht c\u00fant\u00f3ir riachtanas speisialta agus an pr\u00edomhoide riarach\u00e1in. T\u00e1 an bord bainist\u00edochta ag lorg scoil nua ina mbeidh 16 rang agus dh\u00e1 sheomra oideachais speisialta. T\u00e1 cead plean\u00e1la ag an mbord bainist\u00edochta agus an deoise. T\u00e1 an scoil ar an liosta tosa\u00edochta. Cad is c\u00fais leis an moill?  The diocese and the board of management have planning permission for this school. They have had it for a period of time. It has appeared on a number of lists, including, thanks to the Minister, the list of 105 schools that was published in January of this year in this initial tranche.  I have raised this on numerous occasions in this House and the other House and I have every confidence that this will be the last time that I will have to raise this school project. As I said, it is a project that is very close to my heart. It is on the priority list of 105 schools. The present facilities are not good enough. There is a great standard of education and it is a great school, but there are a lot prefabs. It is a single-storey building. It needs to be demolished and upgraded. Where are we at and what is the delay? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Hildegarde Naughton  I thank the Deputy for raising this matter as it gives me the opportunity to outline to the D\u00e1il the current position in relation to the new school building for Scoil Mhuire, Moycullen, County Galway. At the outset, I would like to state that the delivery of this new school building is a significant priority for me and my Department and I know this is school in the Moycullen area is close to the Deputy's heart.  The brief for this major project is to provide a new 16-classroom primary school with additional classrooms for children with special educational needs at the existing site in Moycullen. The board of management has acquired additional land to accommodate the new build. This project is included in my Department's NDP implementation plan and is part of a first tranche of 105 prioritised schools to go to tender or construction in 2026 and 2027. I expect Scoil Mhuire to go to tender in the coming weeks.  As we both know, and the Deputy knows very well, Moycullen is part of the Galway city commuter belt and continues to experience strong population growth due to its proximity to the city and the attractiveness of that area as a residential location for many commuting families. The project supports the Department's objective to ensure sufficient school places in areas of population growth. The additional capacity will allow the school to accommodate projected demographic growth while providing a high-quality environment for teaching and learning.  The project for Scoil Mhuire is being delivered as part of the Department's ADAPT programme. The ADAPT programme uses a professional external project manager to achieve the best possible timeframe for the project through the stages of architectural planning to tender and construction. The project is at the completion of stage 2B of the architectural design process. Stage 2B involves detailed design, securing all statutory approvals and the preparation of tender documentation. Planning permission was secured in May 2023. As I said previously, this project is expected to progress to tender in the coming weeks.  I have visited the school, so I know the fantastic work that is happening there in teaching and learning, as well as the need for a new school. I know the work that Deputy Kyne has put into this, given that it is his local school. We look forward to seeing progress on this over the coming weeks.  Since 2020, the Department of education has provided over \u20ac283 million in capital funding for Galway schools. Over this period, a total of 98 schools have been upgraded through the provision of either a new school building, extension, modular accommodation or climate pathfinder projects. Ten school projects to go to tender or construction in 2026 and 2027 were included in the national development plan implementation plan, including Scoil Mhuire, Moycullen. Since 2020, a total of 111 special classes have been sanctioned in Galway, of which 33 were sanctioned this September. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Kyne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Kyne.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Kyne.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Se\u00e1n Kyne  I thank the Minister for the response and for the excellent news that this project will go to tender in the coming weeks. I take it, therefore, that the Minister has engaged with the Minister, Deputy Jack Chambers, and that this project has been or is ready to be sanctioned by the Department of public expenditure. I acknowledge the progress with other schools as well. We were out yesterday at Col\u00e1iste Cholmcille in Indreabh\u00e1n ag casadh an fh\u00f3id - turning the sod - on that extension. Work is also going ahead at Clifden Community School, which is also on the list. Therefore, three schools that were on that list have seen substantial progress. It is great news that this project will go to tender in the coming weeks. If the Minister could be more specific on the date, it would be great. I know the principal and board management will be anxiously awaiting a letter from the Minister\u2019s staff and the Department in relation to the official sanction to go to tender. That will take some time, of course, but I am very happy to hear this news.  The school has been delivered under the ADAPT scheme, which is a devolved scheme. It is important to acknowledge the work of the principal and board of management. This is good news for Scoil Mhuire, Moycullen. Is \u00e9 an dea-sc\u00e9al n\u00e1 go bhfuil an tAire ag r\u00e1 go mbeidh an scoil ag dul go dt\u00ed an ch\u00e9ad ch\u00e9im eile i gceann c\u00fapla seachtain agus go mbeidh s\u00ed in ann dul amach ag lorg tairiscint\u00ed. Cuirim f\u00e1ilte roimh an dea-sc\u00e9al sin. Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an Aire. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Hildegarde Naughton","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","memberCode":"Hildegarde-Naughton.S.2013-07-19","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Hildegarde Naughton  I also acknowledge the hard work that the board of management and all the school team have put into this project. As I said, it is expected to proceed to tender shortly. In relation to engagement with the Department of public expenditure and reform, all school building projects that are over \u20ac10 million must be submitted to the Department of public expenditure and reform for its approval before proceeding to tender. This is one of a number of projects currently under review by the Department of public expenditure and reform. Our engagement has been positive and, as I said, I would expect this to go to tender in the next few weeks. We will keep Deputy Kyne updated on the matter. I thank him for raising it. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Schools Building Projects"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-23\/debate\/dbsect_9","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Message from Select Committee","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_9","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aindrias Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aindrias Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Aindrias Moynihan)  The Select Committee on Arts, Media, Communications, Culture and Sport has completed its consideration of the Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2026 and has made amendments thereto. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Cuireadh an D\u00e1il ar fionra\u00ed ar 9.54 a.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 10 a.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Sitting suspended at 9.54 a.m. and resumed at 10 a.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Message from Select Committee"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-23\/debate\/dbsect_10","debateType":"motion","bill":null,"showAs":"Fuel, Energy and Carbon Tax Relief: Motion [Private Members]","counts":{"speechCount":45,"speakerCount":27},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_10","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Fitzmaurice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Fitzmaurice.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Michael-Fitzmaurice.D.2014-10-10","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aindrias Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niall Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niall-Collins.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Niall-Collins.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ken O'Flynn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ken-O'Flynn.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ken-O'Flynn.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Nicholas Gogarty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Kenny.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Martin-Kenny.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Mac Lochlainn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanna Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pat Buckley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pat-Buckley.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Pat-Buckley.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ciar\u00e1n Ahern","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Cahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Christopher O'Sullivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Christopher-O'Sullivan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Christopher-O'Sullivan.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Fitzmaurice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Fitzmaurice.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Michael-Fitzmaurice.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice  I move:  That D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann:  recognises that:  \u2014\u00a0households, farmers, agricultural contractors, hauliers, tradespeople and businesses are facing renewed and significant increases in the cost of fuel and energy, adding further pressure to an already severe cost-of-living crisis;  \u2014\u00a0petrol and diesel are essential rather than discretionary expenses for hundreds of thousands of people, particularly in rural Ireland where access to adequate public transport and viable alternatives to private vehicles remains limited or non-existent;  \u2014\u00a0farmers and agricultural contractors have no practical alternative to diesel for the operation of tractors, harvesters and other essential agricultural machinery, and that rapidly increasing marked gas oil, or green diesel, prices represent a direct threat to the viability of primary production and agricultural contracting;  \u2014\u00a0increasing fuel costs have consequences extending far beyond the individual fuel user, increasing the cost of producing and transporting food, construction materials and other goods and ultimately increasing prices for consumers;  \u2014\u00a0households dependent on kerosene and other home-heating fuels, particularly throughout rural Ireland, face significant additional costs as the winter period approaches and frequently have no immediately available or affordable alternative heating source;  \u2014\u00a0businesses which manufacture, produce or supply goods and transport those goods using their own vehicles make an important contribution to employment and economic activity but can be excluded from existing fuel rebate arrangements because of requirements relating to haulage licensing;  \u2014\u00a0the Government has made approximately \u20ac85 million available for fuel support for farmers and agricultural contractors, but only approximately \u20ac26 million of this allocation has been claimed to date, leaving substantial funding available which should continue to be used for the purpose for which it was allocated;  \u2014\u00a0approximately \u20ac15 million in European Union (EU) assistance towards increased agricultural input and fertiliser costs is insufficient to meet the scale of the additional costs currently being experienced by Irish farmers;  \u2014\u00a0carbon taxation has a disproportionate impact on people who have no realistic ability to reduce their reliance on fossil fuels, including rural commuters, farmers, contractors, hauliers and households dependent on oil heating;  \u2014\u00a0further increases in carbon tax are already provided for under existing legislation and will further increase the cost of transport and home heating unless those increases are abolished;  \u2014\u00a0D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann was recently recalled to prevent increases in fuel taxation from taking effect, demonstrating that Government can intervene where taxation would otherwise add further to exceptional fuel costs; and  \u2014\u00a0comments suggesting that diesel prices in excess of \u20ac2 per litre could become a \"new normal\" are deeply concerning and that the role of Government must instead be to use the measures available to it to protect households and businesses from exceptional energy costs;  further recognises that:  \u2014\u00a0international conflict, geopolitical instability and volatility in global energy markets are outside the direct control of the State, but decisions relating to domestic taxation, expenditure and targeted supports remain within the control of the Government;  \u2014\u00a0taxation intended to encourage behavioural change cannot achieve that objective where reasonable and affordable alternatives are not available;  \u2014\u00a0rural communities should not be disproportionately penalised because successive Governments have failed to provide adequate public transport, alternative heating systems and other infrastructure necessary to reduce dependence on fossil fuels;  \u2014\u00a0maintaining the viability of farmers, agricultural contractors, hauliers and other businesses is essential to Ireland's food security, employment, rural economy and national supply chains; and  \u2014\u00a0exceptional additional Exchequer revenues arising during periods of elevated prices should, where appropriate, be used to protect households and productive sectors of the economy from exceptional cost increases; and  calls on the Government to:  \u2014\u00a0abolish all further scheduled increases in the carbon tax, rather than merely postponing those increases, and ensure that households, motorists, farmers and businesses are not subjected to further automatic increases in carbon taxation;  \u2014\u00a0maintain appropriate reductions and reliefs in excise duties applying to petrol and diesel for as long as exceptional fuel-price pressures persist, and use the taxation measures available to the State to ensure that increases in international oil prices are not unnecessarily compounded by domestic taxation;  \u2014\u00a0explicitly reject the proposition that diesel prices in excess of \u20ac2 per litre should be accepted as a \"new normal\", and commit to using all reasonable taxation, expenditure and policy measures available to Government to reduce the impact of exceptional fuel prices on families and businesses;  \u2014\u00a0ring-fence the full \u20ac85 million allocated for agricultural fuel support, ensure that any portion not initially claimed is not surrendered to the Exchequer or redirected away from fuel assistance, and use the remaining allocation to extend fuel support for farmers and agricultural contractors for a further five months;  \u2014\u00a0recognise the exceptional impact of marked gas oil prices approaching \u20ac1.50 per litre on farmers and agricultural contractors and ensure that future agricultural fuel supports properly reflect the actual additional costs being incurred by those sectors;  \u2014\u00a0provide additional Exchequer funding in Budget 2027 for farmers facing exceptional fertiliser and agricultural input costs, over and above the approximately \u20ac15 million being provided through EU support, and ensure that this constitutes additional funding rather than the reallocation of existing agricultural programmes;  \u2014\u00a0introduce targeted measures, in advance of the winter period, to protect households from exceptional increases in the cost of kerosene and other home-heating fuels, with particular regard to older people, low-income households and households in rural areas with limited alternative heating options;  \u2014\u00a0urgently review the eligibility criteria applying to fuel rebate and support schemes for the haulage and commercial transport sectors, with a view to ensuring that legitimate businesses which transport their own goods as an integral part of their business are not unfairly excluded from support solely because they do not hold a particular category of haulage licence;  \u2014\u00a0require a rural impact assessment to be carried out before any future increase in taxation on transport fuels or household energy, including an assessment of the availability, affordability and practicality of alternative transport and heating options;  \u2014\u00a0publish, on an annual basis, a clear account of the total revenue raised through carbon taxation, the amounts allocated to individual programmes, the amounts actually expended, and any unspent, surrendered or carried-forward balances;  \u2014\u00a0ensure that future energy and taxation policy gives appropriate and balanced consideration to affordability, energy security, food security, economic competitiveness and the particular circumstances of rural Ireland, alongside the State's environmental and emissions-reduction objectives; and  \u2014\u00a0commit that the State's response to exceptional international energy-price increases will be based on actively protecting households, farmers, contractors and businesses from costs beyond their control, rather than accepting permanently higher fuel prices as inevitable or as a \"new normal\".  I welcome the opportunity to speak on the motion. Everyone knows there is a war and there are crises in different countries. When you have a crisis, you have to try to protect your people as best as possible. When the Covid-19 pandemic came around, in fairness, the Government brought out different measures to try to handle it as well as possible. It cannot solve everything and we will never claim that it can but what we have to do, as the Government has said many a day, is to see that the people who get up early in the morning and the people who cannot get up early in the morning, for one reason or another and who may have a disability, are looked after. We have to protect all parts of society.  Our motion states, as we have always said, that the carbon tax is very unfair. Future increases must be got rid of, to put it simply. It is not us. We are not economists. The Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, stated clearly that the carbon tax is the most regressive tax on Irish people. In fairness, measures were brought out. There were tax reliefs for white diesel, petrol and all of that. Those reliefs must continue.  Money was announced for the agricultural sector and contractors in the amounts of \u20ac85 million and \u20ac15 million. That was welcome but the problem is that there is no good looking at money when you need it. You need it spent. You need to cushion the blow.  I will give an example. I tested a tractor agitator yesterday. In one hour, it burned \u20ac64 worth of diesel. That is a fact. Agitating is heavy work but that was what it was burning. Only a fraction of the money that has been allocated, the \u20ac85 million, has been spent. That money was ring-fenced for the contractors and farmers around the country who produce the food. There is an example today from across the Border. We would all love to see a united Ireland. One of the biggest potato producers in this country has gone into administration. That is a sign of pressure. Any money is welcome and we are not against getting money but that money needs to be ring-fenced and another round of the fuel support needs to be given because if it is not, there will be consequences for agriculture and in farming circles.  The Government was a part of it when EU decided it would put an extra carbon border adjustment mechanism, CBAM, on fertiliser. That has driven fertiliser prices mad, to be quite frank. I know the EU has offered a paltry sum of \u20ac15.3 million. New money needs to be found for that. It should not come from the \u20ac85 million. That money was given by the Department of public expenditure for the fuel in the agriculture and contracting sectors. That needs to be resolved.  There is also another cohort of people. I will give an example of a discrepancy. Three days ago, I did a synopsis of the situation. If I were to buy 1,000 litres of kerosene in Dundalk, it would cost \u20ac1,610. If I were to walk down the road and across the invisible line of the Border, I could have bought it for \u20ac1,236. That is because of the differences in VAT and carbon tax. We must ensure, as we move towards the winter, that we look after the people in their hour of need, no more than when Covid was here. Any time you have a crisis, you try to help the people. Those are the people who come good again and pay the taxes of this country. Many people are under pressure, to put it simply.  If the Government wants to persist with carbon tax, we gave an alternative. People have the option to go on holidays and if they want to pay an extra bit in carbon tax, they can. However, you do not have an option to drive, especially in rural areas. People have to drive 20 km or 30 km where the Minister of State comes from, where the Leas-Cheann Comhairle comes from and where we all come from. They do not have an option but to drive to work most days of the week. That costs money. The Minister of State will say that some of the carbon tax goes to retrofitting, and it does. I do not deny that. If it were applied to aeroplanes, we would bring in more money and could put it towards whatever we want. At least a person has an option to board an aeroplane. They do not have an option when they are going to work.  The Minister of State is in the Department and I wish him well in his new portfolio. We hear about the amount that is going to agriculture, and that is right. There is an amount going to agriculture. The Leas-Cheann Comhairle and I would have quizzed the Department about that at the agricultural committee. How come in 2009, when there was no carbon tax, under a rural environment protection scheme, REPS, we were able to give farmers \u20ac700 more each? What has happened? Has the agricultural budget been cut and are we pulling money from somewhere else? We have to face up to this argument, which I am hearing being thrown out, that agriculture is getting it. Agriculture got \u20ac700 more from the Exchequer in 2009. That is 17 years ago. Saying that it is going back to farming is a red herring. Money has gone from farming.  In the past week, we met IBEC about competitiveness, as I am sure that other TDs did in their different areas. Look at yesterday. We always heard of Zetor Tractor, \"Buy a Zetor and you will never forget her.\" Yesterday, Zetor announced that it is pulling out of Europe and going to India and China. Talk to pharmaceutical companies that have to go and tender among themselves. This is not competition. Ask them if we are losing competitiveness.  Have a look at the number of ordinary people under pressure in regard to electricity. People try to keep going as best they can. Working people are quiet people. They go to work every day. We must protect them but we must also protect vulnerable people who are under pressure. You hear the stories on the radio. There are people who are afraid to turn on their heating and lights. That is not an Ireland that the Minister of State or I would sign up to. Thankfully, the country, in the line of revenues, is going pretty well. However, it is a sad thing if a country is going pretty well and two thirds of its people are under pressure. Those are the statistics that come from the polls.  I see that the Government's countermotion does not mention where the rest of the \u20ac85 million is going. A lot of what is in our motion was side-stepped. The budget is coming in two weeks' time. We need to ensure that we do not make a hames of it, as we did the first time we tried the fuel support. We saw what happened after that.  You have to look and listen. We are messengers of the people. We are Teachta\u00ed D\u00e1la and we listen to the voice of the people. I ask the Minister to take this motion on board and make sure that it is delivered. This is not politics; it is about people right around our country who are hurting. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Collins  Today, people are being crucified by the cost of fuel. Farmers, agricultural contractors, hauliers, small businesses and ordinary working families are being hammered every time they pull into a filling station or fill the tank with home heating oil. What are they being told? They are being told that diesel costing about \u20ac2 per litre could become the new normal. I want to make one thing absolutely clear on behalf of Independent Ireland. We will not accept \u20ac2 diesel as normal. There is nothing normal about families having to watch the fuel gauge because they are afraid of the cost of living and filling the car. There is nothing normal about a farmer wondering how much it will cost to keep the machinery running or about an older person being afraid to turn on the heat as winter approaches.  The Government will say that international events are responsible for rising energy prices. Of course international events affect the price of oil, but the Government decides the tax, excise, whether to impose another carbon tax increase and whether to put its hand into the pockets of people who have no alternative. Do not come into the House and pretend that the Government is powerless. It is not powerless; it is making choices. For far too long, rural Ireland has been paying for those choices. A worker in rural Ireland cannot walk out the front door tomorrow morning and get on a bus that does not exist. A farmer cannot run a tractor on fresh air. An agricultural contractor cannot harvest a field without diesel. A haulier cannot deliver goods around the country without fuel. Have the fishermen of the country been factored in when it comes to these increases and the crisis we have at the moment? They have told me that they are in a dire situation. Some boats have stopped fishing due to the price of diesel. A 700 horsepower trawler towing for whitefish and prawns burns 3,000 litres during the course of a few days. That could cost up to \u20ac30,000. This is no longer sustainable in an industry that this and previous Governments have devastated in any event. An elderly person with an oil-fired heating system cannot magically produce thousands of euro to replace it because Government policy says they should do so.  The Government cannot tax people into alternatives that it has failed to provide. That is the fundamental point behind this motion. We are demanding that all further scheduled increases in carbon tax be abolished, not postponed or delayed until political pressure dies down. If the Government wants people to change behaviour, it should give them a realistic and affordable alternative. It should not punish them for living in rural Ireland or for having to drive to work. It should not punish families for heating their homes with the only means available to them. Our farmers and agricultural contractors need action now. Some \u20ac85 million was allocated for agricultural fuel support. According to the figures in our motion, only around \u20ac26 million has been claimed. Leave the balance where it belongs. That money was allocated to agriculture and it must stay there. We are calling for the full \u20ac85 million to be ring-fenced and for the remaining money to be used to extend fuel support to farmers and agricultural contractors for another five months.  Let nobody underestimate the situation facing agricultural contractors. When the price of green diesel is heading above \u20ac1.70 per litre, the sums simply stop adding up. These contractors are not operating machinery for recreation. They are cutting silage, harvesting crops, spreading slurry and carrying out the work that keeps Irish agriculture moving. If contractors cannot survive, farmers pay more. If farmers pay more, producing food costs more. If producing and transporting food costs more, the families and hard-working people of this country doing the weekly shop ultimately pay the price. This is not simply an agricultural issue; it is a food security and cost-of-living issue. It is an issue for every household in the country.  The most recent figures from the Central Statistics Office, CSO, show that overall consumer prices have risen by 3.7% in the past year, but that headline figure does not tell the full story. Housing, electricity, gas and other fuel costs are up 8.5%. Transport costs are up 5.4% and education costs have risen by 8.9%. The CSO specifically points to rising home heating oil and electricity, rents and mortgage repayments, while higher petrol and diesel prices are adding to transport costs. Winter is approaching. Thousands of households, particularly across rural Ireland, depend on kerosene. Where are they supposed to go? What exactly is the Government's answer to the pensioner in west Cork or some other part of rural Ireland watching the price of heating oil rise? Is it that they should put on another jumper? That is not good enough. We need targeted winter assistance for older people, low-income families and households that are facing exceptional heating costs.  We also need fairness for hauliers and businesses that transport their own goods. If a legitimate Irish business is manufacturing products, employing people, paying taxes and transporting goods using its own vehicles, it should not be pushed outside a support scheme because it does not tick the right bureaucratic box. These businesses create jobs. They deserve support, not red tape. There is another thing we are demanding before any future Government increases taxes on fuel or household energy: there should be a rural impact assessment taken out. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn  Cuirim f\u00e1ilte roimh an gn\u00f3 Comhalta\u00ed Pr\u00edobh\u00e1ideacha seo \u00f3 Independent Ireland inniu. A bill was presented to me this week by an 89-year-old woman who is a constituent in my county. She paid \u20ac860 for less than half a tank of home heating oil for her house. That is the equivalent of about three weeks' income for her. The amount of oil she bought is unlikely to do her until the other side of Christmas. That is an incredible price for any elderly individual living on their own to have to pay just for a staple good. That heating would swallow up three weeks' income in that period is absolutely incredible. The Government is taking \u20ac200 of that \u20ac860 in tax, which means that it the cause of a significant portion of the difficulties she is having in regard to paying for her oil.  Right now, it takes more than \u20ac100 for a worker to fill a tank with petrol or diesel. That individual is a worker who gets up early in the morning and who our Government is very fond of talking about on a regular basis. Of the \u20ac100 that goes into his or her tank, \u20ac45 goes in Government taxes. The Government talks about the fact that there are wars in Iran and Ukraine and that both have helped to push up oil prices. That is correct, but the Government is one of the biggest drivers in respect of the increase in the price of fuel in this country. The Government is tax-gouging the people of this country in regard to fuel. Fuel is not a luxury good; it is a staple. People cannot do without fuel. They do not have an alternative to putting on the heat in their homes or to getting into the car to get to work. It is actively the Government's policy objective to increase the price of fuel.  Aont\u00fa was the only political party a number of years ago that opposed the introduction of carbon taxes. The reason we did so was very simple. The idea of introducing a tax that, year on year, would increase the price of a product irrespective of the economic circumstances that people would be in or the international price of that product is absolutely wrong. It is scandalous, and the Government did that. We have had an acceptance and admittance - nearly an apology - from the T\u00e1naiste in recent weeks that the idea of bringing in a carbon tax is a stupid and dangerous idea as regards families.  Let me illustrate how quids in the Government is in this case. As a result of the war in Iran and the fact that prices have increased so significantly in recent times, it will take in \u20ac280 million more this year in VAT than it did last year. The Government will take in \u20ac1.6 billion in VAT on energy this year. In April and May, it took in \u20ac440 million in accumulated VAT because of the increased price of fuel. Last year, the Government took in \u20ac4.5 billion in fuel taxes, the most in the history of the State and in the jaws of a cost-of-living crisis. Just when people were suffering significantly in regard to the cost of fuel, the Government reached into their pockets and took more money out of them.  It is very important to realise why we have reached this juncture. Why has there been a change of heart among those in government in recent times in respect of this issue? It is simply down to people power. The reason the Government has taken a different tack in recent months is because hundreds of thousands of ordinary Irish citizens could take no more and took to the streets last April. Ordinary individuals, the people who keep this country going and who do the work to pay the taxes could not take any more.  This Sunday a really important meeting will take place at the Well in Moate, County Westmeath. It has been organised by those protestors. It is to look at what the next steps will be in order to try to ensure that the Government listens to the people about the price of fuel. I encourage people to go along to that. Aont\u00fa will be there standing with them, as we did last April. Does this Government not realise that its policy is bad for families, bad for businesses and bad for the economy? The Government has to change tack on taxation on energy. If it does not do so, many more businesses will go to the wall and many families will not be able to put on the heat or feed themselves this year. We will have serious difficulties as a result. I implore the Government to listen to common sense for a change on the issue of energy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aindrias Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Aindrias-Moynihan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Aindrias Moynihan)  I welcome Mr. Robert Watson to Leinster House and to the Gallery, from where he has been observing proceedings this morning. F\u00e1ilte romhat, Robert. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niall Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niall-Collins.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Niall-Collins.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine (Deputy Niall Collins)  I move amendment No. 1:  To delete all words after \"D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann\" and substitute the following:  \"notes that the Government:  \u2014 remains deeply concerned about the ongoing conflict in the Middle East and Gulf;  \u2014 recognises and understands the pressures that have arisen due to rising fuel costs as a result of the conflict in the Middle East for all families and businesses, in particular for sectors most reliant on fossil fuels;  \u2014 highlights that successive Budgets have provided targeted support to help households with cost-of-living pressures and re-affirms that energy affordability is a priority for this Government; and  \u2014 remains committed to decarbonising our society, increasing investment in renewable energy sources and recycling carbon tax revenues to protect those most vulnerable to fuel poverty through targeted welfare interventions;  recognises that:  \u2014 this Government has delivered one of the largest support packages in the European Union (EU) per head capita which has included:  \u2014 excise duty reductions on diesel, petrol and 'green diesel';  \u2014 an enhanced Diesel Rebate Scheme for the entirety of 2026;  \u2014 the deferral of the 1st May Carbon Tax increase;  \u2014 the extension of the fuel allowance for one month;  \u2014 funds made available for payments to road transport operators under the Road Transporters Support Scheme;  \u2014 funds made available for payments to farmers, farm contractors and fishers under the Fuel Income Support Scheme; and  \u2014 a reduction in the National Oil Reserves Agency (NORA) Levy;  \u2014 it is not possible to offset all of the increases in energy prices, which are driven by market factors, using the tax system;  further recognises that, in the long run the best way to protect Ireland from the impact of international fossil fuel prices is to reduce our dependence on fossil fuel imports, which we will achieve through the progressive decarbonisation of the Irish economy and society and through the steps that will be taken to meet the Government's commitment to reach net zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2050;  further notes that:  \u2014 current support measures instigated by this Government are estimated to cost over \u20ac1.3 billion from March 2026 to the end of February 2027 and have provided significant relief for households and businesses across the country;  \u2014 the Government has responded and will continue to respond in a way that protects those most vulnerable to fuel poverty; and  highlights that, the Government remains cognisant of the pressures faced by households and businesses as a result of increased fuel prices owing to the conflict in the Middle East and will seek to address this as part of Budget 2027.\".  As Deputies will be aware, we are living in an extraordinary uncertain period internationally. The consequences of this are being felt in every home and business right across the country. As a small, highly open economy and a net energy importer, Ireland is naturally exposed to movements in international energy prices. However, throughout the crisis we have monitored developments closely. We continue to examine the international situation and have always taken decisions which result in practical supports for households and businesses across the country.  The motion before the House does not fully take into consideration the array of supports which have been implemented by Government as a result of the conflict in the Middle East. This Government has delivered one of the largest support packages in the EU per capita , totalling over \u20ac1.3 billion and targeted at households, farmers, agricultural contractors, hauliers, tradespeople and businesses. Since the beginning of the crisis, this Government has acted to reduce excise duty on diesel, petrol and marked gas oil and to ease pressure at the pumps. We moved to defer the 1 May carbon tax increase on home heating fuels and we are we are now examining different options available in relation to the cost of home heating oil ahead of the budget. We enhanced the diesel rebate scheme for hauliers and passenger transport operators. We introduced bespoke schemes to support road transport operators, farmers, farm contractors and fishers. We also reduced the NORA levy. It is for this these reasons that the Government will not accept the Independent Technical Group\u2019s motion.  I am happy to have the opportunity to discuss some of the key points made by the Deputies on fuel, energy and carbon tax relief. I am aware that people who live in rural communities like mine do not have the same public transport options as those living in urban communities, but to suggest that there is little or no public transport available across rural communities is simply not true. Government commitments under the national development plan and in the Connecting Ireland rural mobility plan will strengthen rural economies and communities. It means investments in new and existing public transport infrastructure and increasing connectivity, particularly for those who live outside of major towns and cities. The Deputies argue viable alternatives to private vehicles remain limited or non-existent. However, reliance on petrol- and diesel-powered vehicles is decreasing. One in four new vehicles purchased in Ireland in 2026 was an electric vehicle, EV. Industry data for 2026 shows uptake of EVs in rural counties is proportionally higher than in urban counties. The recent interest in the Government\u2019s EV scrappage scheme is encouraging and highlights increasing consumer engagement with the transition to electric vehicles.  I assure the House that the Government understands the exceptional pressure rising fuel costs have placed on our farmers and farm contractors. We have worked intensively with representative stakeholder groups with a view to providing adequate and targeted supports. The announcement of the further extension of the fuel excise rate reduction until the end of October will have provided some reassurance and certainty to farm families and to businesses. It should be noted that existing legislation provides relief for expenditure relating to carbon tax on farm diesel incurred by any person carrying on the trade of farming. In effect, this keeps carbon tax on marked diesel fixed at a rate of just 4 cent per litre for the farming sector. That is the rate that applied in 2012.  As Deputies will be aware, the Minister for agriculture acted to implement a comprehensive \u20ac100 million fuel income support scheme to assist farmers, agricultural contractors and fishers facing unprecedented increases in fuel costs. The scheme provides \u20ac20 million per month in supports. Farmers and agricultural contractors benefit from a support rate equivalent to approximately 20 cent per litre of marked gas oil used based on the verified fuel consumption in 2025. This targeted and practical support package ensured those most exposed to these increases received meaningful assistance at a most crucial time of the year. On fertilisers, the European Commission announced at the end of July an exceptional aid package to compensate farmers impacted by increased fertiliser and energy costs due to the Middle East crisis. The EU package is worth \u20ac540 million in total with Ireland\u2019s allocation being \u20ac15.4 million. It is crucial to note that the EU regulation which provides for this funding also makes provision for member states to provide for up to 200% in additional national funding. In Ireland\u2019s case, this would be up to \u20ac30.8 million which would allow for up to \u20ac46.2 million to be disbursed to Irish farmers under this scheme. The regulation provides for support to be targeted at farmers most impacted by increased costs and disbursed to farmers no later than 28 February 2027. The Minister, Deputy Heydon, and I are actively working on behalf of Government are to finalise a scheme which will deliver this funding to the farmers most impacted by higher fertiliser costs and as quickly as possible. The consideration of additional national funding to top up the EU exceptional aid funding is being actively considered as part of the 2027 budget discussions.  It is important to note that the motion also fails to reflect the reality that the spikes in the price of home heating oil are not as a result of taxes or Government policy but, rather, the wholesale price of oil. The motion also fails to recognise the drivers of energy inflation are global in nature and that it is not possible for the State to control volatile energy prices. Our need for society and the economy to decouple from fossil fuel dependence has been even more apparent in recent times given the levels of volatility in the international fuel prices. The best way to achieve energy security and insulate our economy and society from fuel price shocks is to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels. The carbon tax is an important long-term policy tool in helping to achieve energy security.  The fuel excise applied to kerosene home heating oil is purely carbon tax. The non-carbon component of the mineral oil tax is not applied. Setting the carbon tax rate at zero would have consequential impacts for the most vulnerable to energy poverty. Carbon tax revenues are recycled and used to protect those most vulnerable to energy poverty. Successive budgets have provided additional funds for the just transition measures. This ensures that carbon tax is a progressive tax. Funding from carbon tax provides additional funds for targeted social protection payments, residential energy efficiency measures, as well as funding to encourage green farming practices. As of budget 2026, the Government had allocated over \u20ac4.2 billion in carbon tax revenue to fund the just transition and decarbonisation measures since 2020.  In examining changes to the carbon tax system, it is incumbent on us all to take into account our obligations under the EU emissions trading system legislation and the conditions of the derogation which this Government has negotiated with the European Commission. The principal condition of this is that our national carbon tax remains above the average auction clearing price of the emissions trading system for buildings, road transport and additional sectors, ETS, 2, thereby avoiding double taxation.  Heating fuels such as kerosene and natural gas are within the scope of the ETS2. Losing this derogation would result in carbon revenues being controlled at EU level, thereby undermining our national programme of home energy upgrades and retrofitting, the investment in our electricity grid and development of indigenous renewable energy on the scale required. This will take investment and time. The Government is committed to continuing to make these important investments in Ireland's future.  This motion comes less than two weeks ahead of budget 2027, in a period when we are examining the different options available in relation to the cost of home heating oil, rural impacts and agricultural supports, as raised in the motion. Looking at these issues in the round to ensure an impactful response for households and businesses across the country is the responsible way to act. While no government can fully shield all households from all the impacts of the crisis, this Government has acted time and again to mitigate those impacts. We will be taking further significant action in budget 2027, which is less than two weeks away. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ken O'Flynn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ken-O'Flynn.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ken-O'Flynn.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ken O'Flynn  I thank the Minister of State for his response. I am not sure who wrote it, but it appears to have been a civil servant who does not understand rural Ireland and has not walked in the Minister of State's constituency or in Cork North-Central, which is mine. The Minister of State talked the big talk about energy security, yet this Government and its predecessor, in which he also served, stopped exploration for oil and fossil fuels. He talked about energy security as a benefit for people who were struggling. There are 500,000 households in energy arrears in this State. That does not sound like energy security to me; it sounds like the highest level of debt we have seen in respect of gas and electricity bills.  I bring a human story to the Minister of State's attention. I visited a gentleman the other day who was living in a cottage in Rathcooney. He had one bar lit on his fire and was wrapped in blankets. It reminded me of something one might see in a movie from the fifties or sixties. That man was frightened to death to turn on the heating. He has to choose whether to heat his home today or eat tomorrow. That is not an exaggeration on my part. Every TD worth his or her salt is out talking to people locally, listening to people at the till, talking to people struggling at the petrol pump and hearing from taxi drivers about how they might have to take their cars off the road. These are people's lived realities in this State at the moment.  I have said it previously in the House and I say it again today that carbon tax punishes the people in this country on the lowest incomes and with the fewest choices. Government members talk about energy renewal and moving to solar, assuring us people will be grand. Where will people find \u20ac18,000 or \u20ac19,000 to put solar panels on their roof, for which they will get back a grant of \u20ac1,800 or so? A person would need a ball of money under the bed to be able to avail of some of these grants. They are quite useless to the people who are most vulnerable when it comes to energy security.  As I said, 500,000 households are in arrears. Home heating oil has gone up by 45%. The Minister of State, as defender of the Government, says that this is out of its control, that it is the result of what is happening in the Middle East. Nobody denies what is happening with the conflict in the Middle East. However, if I drove my car onto a forecourt in Malta today, I would pay \u20ac1.21 for a litre of diesel. Malta is part of the European Union but it is able to keep its energy costs down. If I drive my car onto a forecourt in Ireland today, I will pay approximately \u20ac2.20 for a litre of diesel, which is the price I saw advertised on the Naas Road the other day. That is what we are looking at in this country.  How can that price be sustained for the guy living in Youghal who has to drive to Cork city or Ringaskiddy because there is no bus or train service he can use? It is all well and good to say we must look at the models in other European countries and how they are doing so well for commuters and all the rest of it. The services are not there for people in this State. The Minister of State and his Government colleagues need to wake up on this issue. What about the guy in Mallow? There is a train service from Mallow to Cork but where is the orbital bus service in Mallow town to get him to the train? He still has to drive his car to the station. For many people in this country, the car is their only option to get to work. We continuously hear from the Government that it represents the people who get up early in the morning. In fact, it is the people who get up early who are suffering. They are suffering at the pump and the till.  The Government is like Nero, fiddling with bits and pieces and giving out a reduction here and a couple of cent there while it watches Rome burn. We are constantly told we live in a wealthy country. The Minister for Finance cannot pass a microphone without telling everyone what a fantastic job he is doing and how people should be saving. There is nothing there to save. People are struggling in this economy and finding it harder than ever before. The State is not doing enough to protect them. We are not doing enough for the small business owner who is paying \u20ac5,000 to \u20ac8,000 every month in energy costs for refrigeration. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Nicholas Gogarty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Nicholas Gogarty  It is unfortunate that successive Governments, going back to the abolition of domestic rates in the seventies, have been very dependent on excise duty revenue. We do not have a very broad tax base. When pressure is felt, there is a question mark in the accounts about how, if this income is reduced, it might impact on our overall day-to-day spending budget. I am sure everyone in the Government is at least aware of how much people are feeling the pinch right now, especially those in rural Ireland, who are more dependent on cars and on kerosene for fuel. They must be given a break, however temporary it might be, given the mayhem Trump is facilitating around the world.  At the same time, with the effects of climate change becoming more apparent, we are conscious that we must wean ourselves off our addiction to fossil fuels. I have mentioned energy self-security 15 or 20 times in the Chamber since I was re-elected in 2024. We must address our addiction to fossil fuels from the Middle East and elsewhere and become self-sufficient through the use of green hydrogen, electric vehicles and biofuel. We must become a net exporter of energy and have a quid pro quo when the sun is shining and the waves are moving. We need to be in a position to get the revenue from the data centres and to be 100% self-sufficient in respect of our public transport needs.  I will focus in particular on public transport and electricity because we are trying to get people off fossil fuels, but the reality is they have no option but to drive vehicles that run on those fuels. There are not enough incentives to drive EVs. In all the new housing estates, for example, the current policy is to put in a few EV chargers, which is great, but residents are paying a commercial rate to big business. They are not being charged at the domestic tariff. I am lucky enough to live in a house that was built in the 1960s. I have a driveway and can charge my EV using a cable, for which I pay a very cheap overnight rate. People are being encouraged to buy into new home developments in places like Adamstown, Kilcarbery, Seven Mills and Citywest, all of which are in my constituency, but they cannot even get a parking space. If they manage to win the fight for a space, they cannot put a cable under the ground for charging their EV because that is against planning law. Technology exists in Portugal that allows people to key in a code and pay a domestic-type tariff for their EVs. If we had that type of technology, we would accelerate the move towards electric vehicles that can be powered more by the grid.  At the moment, some of the energy produced by wind is going to waste because we do not have the capacity to store it.  We are so dependent on gas as the baseline that we are paying an excess in electricity prices. People are being screwed left, right and centre because of the lack of vision in Government circles. I have spoken before about the need to invest in the grid infrastructure so that we can have private, home production and people are not disincentivised from storing solar electricity in a battery at home and, if there is a power cut, using the power in their homes rather than having to switch off, like so many houses do at the moment, especially when it is tied to an Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI, grant.  We need to think about the big picture, but this motion is about the small or more immediate picture. The more immediate picture is that people are strung out trying to pay costs they have no alternative to in the short term. We need to start moving more towards the big or macro picture and increase momentum while - it is not a dichotomy - trying to help people out during the current crisis, because it is a global crisis. It is not either-or. If we are trying to wean people off fossil fuels, we are going about it the wrong way by increasing public transport prices and having ghost buses in the estates I mentioned. Even if people have the choice, they will not make it because they do not know whether they will get to work reliably. It is a mess, but it is within the Government's power to sort out some of it very quickly. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Kenny.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Martin-Kenny.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Martin Kenny  I thank Independent Ireland for bringing forward this motion. I am disappointed the Government is once again negating its impact. We are seven months into this crisis and the situation is only getting worse, with diesel prices hitting more than \u20ac2.20 per litre at the forecourts. Home heating oil costs \u20ac1,600 for 1,000 litres and green diesel is almost \u20ac1.70 per litre for farmers. As workers and families suffer, the prices continue to rise at the pump and the Government is the only one winning, with record revenues coming from VAT.  Workers, families and farmers across rural Ireland are facing the brunt of this crisis. They need their cars to get to work, go to the shop or bring their children to school. Farmers need their tractors to spread slurry, move silage, feed livestock and much more. The majority of family homes in rural Ireland depend on home heating oil to heat their homes. The Government delays in addressing the cost-of-living crisis are adding to the pain and hardship families are going through. Thousands of families are in arrears on electricity bills and barely making ends meet.  Last night, Sinn F\u00e9in introduced legislation to remove carbon tax entirely from home heating oil, taking \u20ac183 off the cost of 1,000 litres. It was the eighth time Sinn F\u00e9in had brought forward legislation to cut the price of home heating oil and I call on all sides of the House, including the Government, to support it and give people a break.  The Minister for agriculture introduced a fuel support scheme for farmers, fishers and farm contractors with a budget of \u20ac100 million. He promised the budget would go to fuel support for farmers, farm contractors and fishers. In a reply to a recent parliamentary question, the Minister told me that more than \u20ac60 million allocated to that fuel support scheme had not been spent. This money should not be redirected to other areas. It should be allocated to, and spent on, fuel support.  The fuel support scheme was flawed. It was only a sticking plaster on a major crisis. The Minister should have reduced the price of green diesel at the pump and that is what should be done now. I call on the Government to use the \u20ac60 million to reduce the price of green diesel at the pump, which is what should have been done last April.  The cost of fertiliser has skyrocketed since the start of this crisis, which was brought on by the war in Iran. In the budget, the Government needs to provide \u20ac30 million to co-finance the EU fertiliser support scheme of \u20ac15 million. We should not take money from the fuel support scheme to co-finance fertiliser support. They are two separate issues affecting agriculture and the Minister should not use one pot of money to solve both problems. The Government needs to start putting workers and families first. It is time that half measures were over. We need to see real solutions to help farmers and workers to get through this crisis.  The reality is that much of this has been caused by the conflicts across Ukraine, Iran and Gaza and all these things. It is quite ironic that the EU puts rules in place for governments about what they can and cannot do on VAT and so on. It makes it difficult for governments to act appropriately in many of these situations, and the EU does not act appropriately in many of these situations. We need the Government to recognise that we will have huge problems if it does not act forcefully to ensure we help people out by bringing down prices for everyone across the board. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pa Daly  At the core, this debate is about a growing sense among ordinary people that they are being left to shoulder more and more of the burden while the Government sits on its hands. Ordinary workers, families and pensioners are paying more. Rural communities are expected to shoulder the cost of Government failure and inaction. For months now, families across the State have faced soaring living costs and household budgets are going through the roof. Yet, when practical measures are put forward to help people, the Government delays, does not act and says that now is not the time. It is turning its back on ordinary people.  The reality facing people on the ground, particularly in rural Ireland where families have no alternative but to rely on private transport and home heating oil, is stretching beyond all recognition. Heating is not a luxury for people; it is a necessity to prevent them getting sick and keep them warm during winter. The alternatives are not available. There is no just transition. There is a bigger and bigger green divide, or even a wealth transfer to people who can already afford it, while other people in older homes and rural areas cannot afford it. The Government continues to pile cost upon cost on people who have few alternatives.  Nowhere is that more apparent than with carbon tax. Sinn F\u00e9in has said that there should not be any more carbon tax increases. The Government cannot keep increasing the costs for rural families while failing to provide any alternatives to allow them to transition. It cannot tell people to stop relying on oil and cars and reduce their bills while refusing to deliver on public transport, energy infrastructure and supports to make that possible. Rural Ireland is being left behind and people see it in rising fuel costs, soaring home energy bills and few or no public transport services. They see communities being forgotten, while Ministers in Dublin tell them that everything is fine. The Government says it wants to support people in the here and now, but that is now. It means helping people, including pensioners who are worried about turning on the heating, to face another winter. It means recognising that many households are already struggling with bills such as mortgages, rent and childcare and cannot face any more. Some 500,000 people are in arrears on their energy bills. We need real action, not more words. The Government has totally failed.  Yesterday, Sinn F\u00e9in brought forward legislation to remove carbon tax from home heating oil. It was the eighth time we had sought action on this issue and the eighth time the Government parties or Fianna F\u00e1il, Fine Gael and some Independents had chosen to reject the proposals. People are not fools. They can see what is happening. They can see a Government that talks about helping families but repeatedly votes against commonsensical measures to put money back in people's pockets. It is a Government that is more than happy to collect billions of euro in tax revenue as prices rise while refusing to give meaningful, practical relief. The Government has failed to understand the pressure felt in the communities, but the House has a choice. It can continue down the road of higher costs, higher carbon taxes and more pressure on families or it can send a clear message that enough is enough, that rural Ireland matters, that heating homes is a necessity and that struggling families deserve support and not lectures. It can send a message that, when people are facing a crisis, the Government will say it has their back. For these reasons, I support the motion and encourage others to do so. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Mac Lochlainn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy P\u00e1draig Mac Lochlainn  Hundreds of thousands of families heat their homes with home heating oil. I can speak with authority. In Donegal, most families rely on home heating oil. They are facing into the winter and a fill costing \u20ac1,600. Last year, it was \u20ac900. It is a massive burden, particularly for older and vulnerable families.  People who live in Donegal are being penalised for making a choice they do not have. Where will older people get the money to retrofit their homes? How can people get to work without driving a car, van or lorry in a place like Donegal where the public transport system just is not there? They are being penalised for making a choice they do not actually have. This is nonsense. The Government has been doing this for years. It is not listening, but now we are at a profound point because our electricity is the most expensive in Europe. Home heating oil is at an unmanageable level and petrol and diesel are at the level they are at now. The Government has been slow to respond again and again.  I will talk about electricity.  The last time the Government gave energy credits was when people were voting at the last election. The cynicism is unbelievable. My colleague, Deputy Pa Daly, who is our energy spokesperson, has revealed that the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, has only met one of the energy companies this year. He has met just one, back in January. There are three he has not met at all. The Government is doing nothing to confront the energy companies about profiteering. It is giving families no energy credits. It has provided no clarity on home heating oil and has not taken one cent off the price throughout this crisis. That is why people are so angry. That is why there is again talk of protests. There is no urgency. There is cynicism. The Government is not listening to people. We in the Opposition are going to continue to come in here to tell the Government the truth as we see it in our communities and to hold the Government to account until it wakes up and does what needs to be done. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanna Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joanna Byrne  There is a lot in this motion, which I thank Independent Ireland for bringing forward, but I will focus on petrol and diesel prices for now as successive Government policies have made my home town of Drogheda a commuter town. Decisions by Fianna F\u00e1il governments that there should be a focus on just one town in a county - in the case of Louth, that is Dundalk - has seen foreign direct investment and a lot of jobs go to Dundalk while jobs continually leave Drogheda. The closure of BD, which employed hundreds of skilled workers, is the most recent example. According to the last census and the Drogheda business improvement districts, BID, commuter survey, 8,000 people leave Drogheda every day and almost 15,000 leave the wider area of south Louth and east Meath to commute over an hour to work, usually here in Dublin. Some 65% of those surveyed leave for work before 7 a.m. and do not return until after 6.30 p.m. Because of the huge increases in fuel prices, they are paying a fortune for the privilege of doing so. That was the last census. With the huge increase in the number of residents in Drogheda thanks to the house building boom along the port access northern cross route and with job losses locally, that figure of 15,000 is sure to rise in the next census.  This State ran a surplus of \u20ac12.5 billion last year, over \u20ac2 billion more than the Government projected on budget day. It has the resources to make a real difference but has refused to do so thus far. What sorts of prices do we need to see on the forecourts before this Government steps up? Nobody wants to see people forced to once again launch protests against fuel and energy prices, shutting the country down. I ask the Government to please not let us get to that point. We in Sinn F\u00e9in have brought forward legislation to reduce taxes on petrol, diesel and home heating oil. Cuts to taxes on diesel would have made up roughly of that, with green diesel, petrol and home heating oil cuts making up the majority of the rest. Our proposals would have made a real difference to my constituents in the Drogheda, south Louth and east Meath area and to others around the State who commute daily and who are now paying well over \u20ac2.20 per litre of diesel. This cannot become the new normal. The Government parties can remedy this problem if the Government legislates for the good of the people of Ireland and cuts the taxes. It needs to lift the burden of people whose backs are against the wall with the rising cost of petrol, diesel and home heating oil. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire  Workers, families and everyone across this country are facing a situation in which everything seems to be going up. It is not just homelessness, house prices and rents but also the cost of petrol, childcare, home heating oil and electricity. It is absolutely everything. There is not a household in this country that are not looking at their bills, trying to figure out how to get to the end of the week or the month, depending on how they are paid, because everything has to be accounted for.  During this debate and previous debates, the Government has trumpeted the various things it has done but people know well that it had to be dragged kicking and screaming to do an awful lot of those things and that those things have not gone anywhere near far enough. To be honest, I suspect that, if there had not been enough public pressure and if the international circumstances had not changed, we would be looking at some of the duties being added back on. We also know that not a single cent has come off the cost of home heating oil and that nothing has been done in relation to energy credits. The Government ignored warnings from the Opposition that, if it got rid of the energy credits, people would fall into arrears. Lo and behold, record numbers of people are now in arrears with their energy bills. It is not just us saying that; the energy regulator is saying so as well.  People are tackling issues all the time. Families are trying to deal with rents like they have never seen before and childcare costs that are absolutely crippling them. The Minister of State needs to act on this. He needs to deal with the issue of home heating oil at last. People have seen huge increases. We need more action on the cost of living in general and on the cost of childcare, education and healthcare. It is right across the board. The way that this State is set up means that middle-income earners who pay taxes are not only not getting support but are being asked to pay a second time. Through voluntary contributions, GP fees and third-level fees, the cost-of-living crisis comes back to bite them every time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pat Buckley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pat-Buckley.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Pat-Buckley.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pat Buckley  I thank the Independent Technical Group for bringing forward this motion. Where will I start? Constituents have told me that they go cold and hungry and that some days they do both. They cannot afford to heat their homes and their kids are constantly sick. They end up cutting back on food to pay for electricity. Cold homes, empty fridges and impossible choices face some of my constituents in east Cork, who are forced to choose between heating their homes and putting food on the table.  As I listened to the Minister of State's response, I was sitting here thinking \"Jesus wept. The Government has now normalised poverty in 2026.\" It is a sad indication of where this Government is going. It had a knee-jerk reaction last year when normal, ordinary working families, farmers and others who were struggling went out on a protest. It labelled those people for standing up and trying to tell the Government, which is supposed to serve its people, that they had enough and could not take it. The Government is going to see that again.  The Minister of State mentioned the Government supports. They are not working. Ministers speak about it as if it is the Government's money. It is the taxpayers' money. It is our money. The Government is supposed to support the people who support us in supposedly doing our job up here. The Minister of State also mentioned rural transport, saying that what has been said about it is a myth. It is not a myth. Rural transport is at zero. I was in contact with the NTA during the week about rural link services for Ballymacoda, Shanagarry and Knockadoon. It told me straight out that the Government is not giving it funding. Its priorities are up its backside because it is so self-centred. I hear some Government TDs say that they are listening to their constituents. I do not know what planet they are on. I can walk down the street and see people who are struggling every single day.  There is a knock-on effect here. The majority of stuff in the supermarket, in the chemist and everywhere else was carried there by a diesel-run engine. Where there is action, there is an instant reaction. If the price of diesel goes up, the price of carrying goods goes up and that will be passed on to the consumer. In all of the Government's actions, it has done nothing to serve the people. I support our Bill from last night and the Independent Technical Group's motion today but I guarantee the Government will support neither because it is not on the proper planet. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  I have said in this House a number of times, before the people, that the Irish Government is not responsible for global events precipitating global energy price hikes. However, people look to their government to insulate them from the worst impacts and the Government continues to fail on that account. Why can it not help struggling families to heat their homes? People are crying out for help and the Government has the power. Why is it waiting? There is a behavioural tax on homes right across the country and in my own constituency of Cavan-Monaghan. The changed behaviour for many, especially among the most vulnerable in our communities, this winter will be that they go cold because the Government is wed to the nonsensical, unjustifiable and completely unnecessary carbon tax on home heating oil. Sinn F\u00e9in has now come before the D\u00e1il eight times to seek the removal of carbon tax from home heating oil. At every opportunity, the Minister of State's Government has said \"No.\" In essence, the Government believes people should suck it up and pay the increased costs. If they go cold, that is not governance. It is simply callous. People have struggled enough to pay electricity bills and to pay the tax on petrol and diesel for their cars. They are paying to send their children to school and college. They have had enough without the Government tinkering around the edges. I ask the Minister of State to please support the Sinn F\u00e9in legislation. Let us put a little warmth back in people's homes this winter. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  Many have said it before; we all accept that Government is not responsible for what has happened with the war in Iran. Donald Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu are responsible and we are all suffering as a result. However, let us be absolutely clear. There are things the Government can do. It did reduce the cost of petrol and diesel when it was forced to.  We all know an insufficient amount was done in relation to that. How do we know that? We know that because we can look at the forecourts at the minute. We are looking at \u20ac2.20 per litre of diesel and costs that we could not have expected. In the long term, we know it has also failed in relation to delivering on wind power and alternatives.  We have a real problem, particularly when we are talking about home heating oil and the 700,000 households that have no choice but to use home heating oil. The carbon tax is not going to allow them, facilitate them or force them into using something else. They have no choice. I was on cheapestoil.ie. The average price of heating oil in County Louth today is \u20ac1,605.97 for 1,000 litres. The cheapest is \u20ac1,559 for 1,000 litres. That is phenomenal. The price last year was in and around \u20ac900. We are talking about removing the carbon tax on that in order to mitigate at least some of the pain. We are talking about \u20ac183 - something that could be done today that could impact on people's lives tomorrow. There are many who are waiting because they have heard kites flown that something may be done in relation to home heating oil. It needs to be done now. It needs to be done straight away.  Today, the Irish Cancer Society revealed that cancer patients are losing an average of \u20ac16,200 in annual income. If we get into that, they face monthly travel-associated----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Conor Sheehan)  Thank you, Deputy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  -----costs of up to \u20ac300 a month. Some of that is fuel. We need help on that as well. Some of that is heating. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Conor Sheehan)  The Deputy should conclude. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  We need to get serious. Regarding the cost of disability payment that the Government took away, we need to ensure that is delivered. We have a lot of people under pressure, and the Government could help a lot of them now. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Whitmore","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Jennifer-Whitmore.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Whitmore  As a country, Ireland has never been as wealthy. We have never had so many resources available to us to support people and to make this country even better than it is, yet we still have so many people who feel completely left behind by this Government and the previous Government. They are struggling to keep their heads above water and really cannot see a future for themselves. We saw a report yesterday about the number of young people who are planning on emigrating. We have sort of turned into a country of contradictions. Some people are doing incredibly well, but there is a huge number of people who are struggling and finding it very difficult. There are 324,000 households in this country in arrears on their electricity bills. There are 188,000 in arrears on their gas bills. These are the highest figures ever. Those people are not doing that by choice. They are in arrears because they are unable to pay the extortionate energy prices that we have seen over the past number of years. For people who are filling their cars at the moment with a 60-litre fill of petrol, it is costing \u20ac6.60 more for a fill than it did in February and for diesel it is \u20ac9.60 more than it was in February. We can see how people are really struggling.  Ireland is a small country and economy and we have been repeatedly hit over the years with these global crises that have caused huge challenges, problems and difficulties in this country. We have had the war in Ukraine and now the war in Iran. While it is clear - I think everyone would agree - that Ireland did not play a part in causing any of those wars, the Government had to rally and come up with emergency measures to deal with them. What we have not seen from this Government is a move from emergency, temporary and incredibly costly measures to actually making our homes, households and businesses more resilient to those kinds of energy shocks. Yes, those temporary measures were needed, but where is the long-term planning from this Government? Where is the strategic thinking?  The incredible amount of corporation taxes coming into this country have resulted in a very lazy Government - a Government that has no vision for the future and is quite happy to throw money at problems and situations but not actually put any long-term thinking into how to deal with these issues on a long-term basis. That is costing us a fortune. In March 2026, there was \u20ac250 million on a package of temporary fuel tax reduction supports. In April 2026, there was \u20ac505 million. Post-Ukraine, we had a \u20ac2.7 billion package in mid-2022 to tackle rising energy costs. The lump sum energy payments that were made in 2022 cost \u20ac1.3 billion. These were untargeted measures. I repeatedly was very critical of the untargeted approach that the previous Government took, essentially putting something like \u20ac100 million into the electricity meters of holiday homes. The then Government gave people who already had two homes \u20ac100 million in taxpayers' money. In 2023, those energy payments cost over \u20ac1 billion. In 2024, it was \u20ac500 million. Billions have been spent post-Ukraine on short-term relief. We are now seeing billions being spent post-Iran.  What the Government needed to do at that time post-Ukraine was not just hand over public money as an emergency measure. Rather, it needed to look at the country as a whole and ask, \"How do we make ourselves more resilient?\" The global energy shocks will continue and we are far from immune. We are incredibly reliant on fossil fuels and the global energy market. What the Government never said was, \"How can we actually move away from fossil fuels? How can we make our homes resilient? How can we make sure that if something happens in the Middle East or in Ukraine, it is not a household in Portumna or Rathdrum that is paying for it? How can we ensure that our communities are protected?\"  The Social Democrats have continually called for longer-term focus from the Government. We have our solar for all plan. One million homes in Ireland are suitable for solar panels. If those homes had solar panels, they could reduce their energy cost by \u20ac400 or \u20ac500 per year. That would be game-changing for so many households. We have repeatedly called for more grants and better supports because solar panels are still far too costly for far too many people. In fact, I first raised this in 2022 after the war in Ukraine. I asked the then Government to, please, focus on solar. I could not understand why that Government was so blind to the financial, climate and societal benefits of solar panels and making sure that houses were resilient. Yet it did nothing. In fact, it was pulling grants from people. It took away the battery storage grants that were available. It pulled support from people. That is why we are in the situation we are in now. We have a Government that has far too much money and is wasting it and is not thinking through. It seems not to care about the next five and ten years. It is just throwing money at problems. I remind the Government that it is not its money; it is the public's money. People expect it to be prudent with that money and to use it in a responsible manner, but the Government is not doing that.  There are many measures, such as the solar plan the Social Democrats have come up with, that would support people, but the Government is ignoring them. We have called for an energy windfall tax similar to what was implemented after the Ukraine war but I cannot see any advocacy for that at a European level. There are alternatives to the home heating oil crisis that people are facing at the moment. There are alternative technologies that could be utilised.  However, the Government is moving so slowly on them, allowing people to face extortionate rises in prices. The Government has no vision and is completely tone deaf to what is going on in people's lives.  I want to make a point about the cost-of-living crisis that people are facing at the moment and how tone deaf the Government is. It put forward this \u20ac100 voucher for 16-year-olds. That is simply a public relations stunt. That is all that is. A woman with four children contacted me yesterday. Both she and her husband work. However, like many people in this country who work really hard, they are finding it very difficult to keep their heads above water. She texted me and asked, \"Are they actually serious about this credit?\" Her daughter has teeth erupting from the roof of her mouth. She is in constant daily pain with it and it will be three years before she sees an orthodontist or else this family can fork out \u20ac5,500 to get it done privately. The Government is completely tone deaf and does not understand the struggles that people are facing. It does not seem to understand where it is wasting money. It is not acceptable to have a teenager in daily pain because dental services are not being provided in her in her locality. What family has \u20ac5,500 to fork out on orthodontics? That is an incredible amount of money. I ask the Minister of State to bring this message back to the Government. The money it is wasting now it is not its money; it is public money and we need it to support communities, support people and spend it wisely. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ciar\u00e1n Ahern","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ciar\u00e1n-Ahern.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ciar\u00e1n Ahern  I thank the Deputies from Independent Ireland for bringing this motion forward today. Everyone in this House knows and agrees that we are going through a severe and extended cost-of-living crisis. We all want to do everything in our power to protect people most at risk from energy poverty. Many people in the country are struggling now. However, the vast majority of us in this House, in opposition at least, agree on the reasons for the cost-of-energy crisis and the long-term solutions. The climate crisis is not mentioned once in this motion. That is just wild. Where is the acknowledgement in this motion that the current energy crisis has been directly caused by Donald Trump? Where is the acknowledgement that Trump, whom Independent Ireland welcomed with open arms to this country a week ago in the Phoenix Park, whose politics some of the Deputies here try to ape and assimilate, is the direct reason that energy bills are high here and across the world? Trump's illegal, reckless and pointless war on Iran has brought us here, not the carbon tax. Donald Trump, Mark Zuckerberg and their billionaire class are the only economic migrants into this country who are actually responsible for our problems, but Independent Ireland Deputies cannot find it within themselves to criticise them. Independent Ireland cannot punch down on them.  Where in this motion are the proposals for a tax on excess profits of energy companies? Where is the support for a moratorium on data centres which are adding to household bills and being built to placate tech billionaires? There are none, because these are the guys Independent Ireland Deputies want to cosy up to. Where have they been while we have been protesting against the hikes in public transport fares that are facing commuters, students, people with disabilities and people who cannot afford cars? They say they are concerned with transport costs but, just like the Government, only for certain cohorts.  We can absolutely agree that there is no question that households and small businesses across Ireland have faced extraordinary pressure from energy costs. Families have seen electricity and heating bills rise, motorists have faced much higher costs at the pump, and many people have been left with difficult choices between heating their homes, travelling to work and meeting other essential household expenses. Such is the scale of the energy crisis and the cost-of-living crisis more broadly that we now have more than half a million gas and electricity accounts in arrears. The pressures are very real and any serious discussion of energy policy or climate policy has to begin by recognising them.  An equally important point needs to be made: those pressures are being exacerbated and prolonged by Ireland\u2019s continued dependence on fossil fuels, which the Deputies are seeking to subsidise indefinitely in this motion. The existence of a cost-of-living crisis does not remove the need to address Ireland\u2019s dependence on fossil fuels. The experience of recent years has demonstrated why reducing that dependence should be an economic and social priority as well as an environmental one. Our over-reliance on imported fossil fuels means that we are massively over-exposed to international energy markets and geopolitical shocks, as we have seen following Trump's and Netanyahu\u2019s misadventures in the Middle East.  The Minister has pointed out previously that our dependence on imported fossil fuels is a vulnerability, including the fact that approximately 80% of our gas is imported from our nearest neighbour. We urgently need to reduce that dependence and the carbon tax has an important role to play in that. What is important is the policy framework we put around it, how the proceeds are used, and whether we give people realistic and affordable alternatives.  This motion notes that for a lot of people in rural areas, and notwithstanding the progress that has been made with respect to the Local Link in recent years, there is still a lack of alternatives to private cars or fossil fuel-powered home-heating systems, and I agree with that. We need to go further and faster in rolling out supports and incentives to allow people to wean themselves off fossil fuels. We need to make EV grants, heat pumps, insulation, solar panels, batteries and so on more accessible to larger cohorts of the population, particularly people in rural communities and low-income households.  However, we will not be able to do that if we do away with the mechanism designed to fund those supports. Labour\u2019s position has always been that carbon tax should form part of a just transition rather than being considered in isolation from household incomes and energy affordability. To be fair, we have supported increases in carbon tax while arguing for a refundable carbon-tax credit for low- and middle-income households. That distinction is important. Carbon tax is intended to reflect, through the price of fossil fuels, some of the environmental cost associated with their use. Yes, it is also designed to incentivise the move towards lower-carbon alternatives.  Carbon tax detractors often claim that it is a regressive form of taxation, but I do not believe that. In last year\u2019s budget, over \u20ac1 billion raised through the carbon tax was allocated to alleviating fuel poverty and reducing our dependency on fossil fuels, thus protecting those who need it most from inflationary shocks. The largest stream of ring-fenced funding went to retrofitting, social protection, and - the Independent Ireland Deputies might be surprised to learn - farmers, through the agri-climate rural environment scheme, ACRES. The evidence has shown for years that carbon tax is a progressive measure and that our most vulnerable households are better off as a result of it.  Of course, the precise treatment of revenues from it should be transparent and must be scrutinised but the underlying principle is straightforward: if the State asks people to change how they heat their homes, how they travel and how they consume energy, the State must invest in making those changes possible. That sentiment is somewhat reflected in the motion, but the proposal seems to lean more towards the State just ceasing to ask people to make those changes.  I would lean the other direction; we must continue to encourage people to transition towards cleaner energy, but crucially we have to support them in doing so and protect those who are not yet capable of doing so. The unfortunate reality for some Deputies in this House is that climate change is real and it is accelerating. We have just emerged from a summer of extreme weather events both at home and abroad. We need immediate, targeted protection for households under pressure but we also need sustained investment that reduces the underlying need for that protection. Scrapping the carbon tax would be catastrophic in both respects.  Let us look again at the figures from last year\u2019s budget. Some \u20ac558 million, the largest stream of ring-fenced carbon tax funding, went to retrofitting, including the warmer homes scheme which gives grants to low-income households to improve the energy efficiency of their homes. That funding is helping struggling families to keep their homes warm and lowering their bills.  The second largest stream of funding, \u20ac350 million, went to social protection payments to help alleviate poverty and protect people from the cost-of-living increases. These payments were chosen on the basis of research by the ESRI which focused specifically on determining how to make the carbon tax progressive and to ensure that the most vulnerable were not worse off as a result.  If we are going to be in the business of making policy here, we have to ensure it is evidence based. Contrary to proclamations that the carbon tax is regressive, the opposite is in fact true. This tax helps us to alleviate poverty. It particularly targets groups known to be at greater risk of energy poverty - low-income families and single adults living alone, exactly the people most in need of support at the moment.  Will the Deputies who are advocating for cuts to the carbon tax go back to their constituencies and gleefully tell pensioners on fuel allowance the good news that they will not be getting any further increases because they have successfully got the carbon tax slashed? Delaying the increase in carbon tax costs the Government millions that would otherwise go to targeted supports for those who need them most - low-income households, single pensioners and farmers.  In budget 2026, there was \u20ac163 million more in ring-fenced funding from carbon tax than there was in budget 2025. However, because of the suspension of the carbon tax increase, there will be no such additional funding for just transition measures next year.  It is also worth noting in all of this that some sectors, including heavy industry, haulage and farming, are already eligible for partial or even full reliefs from the tax. Of course, the Government has utterly failed to make clear the value and purpose of the carbon tax, how it works and who it helps. None of this is to say that I or the Labour Party do not have issues with certain aspects of the carbon tax. For example, the first \u20ac20 per tonne of the tax is not ring-fenced for just transition measures. I think it should be. However, this motion amounts to simply prolonging our dependence on and subsidisation of fossil fuels, leaving all of us - farmers and hauliers included - exposed to international price shocks like the ones we are experiencing at the moment, as well as defunding the supports available to help people wean themselves off fossil fuels.  We need a two-pronged approach - one that protects the most vulnerable in the immediate term, while also supporting people to reduce their dependence in the longer term. That is what a just transition should be. We in Labour have consistently called for targeted energy credits to help households struggling with bills and, at the same time, we want to see far greater investment in retrofitting schemes so that more households can improve their energy efficiency and bring those bills down in the first place. A temporary reduction in the price of petrol or diesel might bring the price down for a few weeks until Trump decides to, in his words, annihilate another country, but it does not reduce our dependence on oil. A retrofit does reduce that dependence, as do renewable energy, public transport and EVs. That is why Labour has consistently put these measures at the centre of our climate proposals. Not only are they climate measures in their own right, they will also help with the cost of living not just today or for this electoral cycle, but in the long term.  Households that are given the right supports can afford to retrofit their homes today and can reduce their energy consumption and lower their bills tomorrow. Those supports are funded by the carbon tax. This motion presents a false choice between helping people and tackling climate change. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  I move amendment No. 1 to amendment No. 1:  To delete all words from \"notes that the Government:\" to \"will seek to address this as part of Budget 2027\" and substitute the following:  \"recognises that:  \u2014 working people, families, students, households and pensioners are facing renewed and significant increases in the cost of fuel and energy, as well as increases in public transport fares, adding further pressure to an already severe cost-of-living crisis; and  \u2014 the Government is directly contributing to this cost-of-living crisis by refusing to introduce price controls on fuel, energy or groceries, abolishing energy credits, enabling data centres to push up energy prices, gutting rent controls, underfunding retrofitting and solar panels for low- and middle-income households and imposing a regressive carbon tax;  calls on the Government to:  \u2014 impose strict price controls on fuel, energy and groceries and abolish standing charges for electricity and gas;  \u2014 stop the planned increases in public transport fares and introduce free public transport to incentivise public transport use;  \u2014 introduce a \u20ac500 energy credit in the Budget, to be funded by an energy levy on data centres;  \u2014 abolish the carbon tax and replace it with higher taxes on big business and the wealthy, including a new multimillionaire's tax on wealth, that will also fund a massive expansion of retrofitting grants and free, frequent and expanded public transport; and  \u2014 freeze and cut rents.\".  This morning, I went to a briefing in the audiovisual room by the Irish Lung Fibrosis Association. There, we heard about the financial impact of suffering from lung fibrosis or pulmonary fibrosis. For some people, it is \u20ac5,000, which is a third of their State pension. It is no surprise that more than one in two said that as a result of having this disease and the cost of living crisis, there had been a moderate or severe impact on the financial situation of their family. There were also lots of very reasonable demands, which we of course support. To be honest, what struck me was how on earth, in 2026 in one of the richest countries in the world, with a massive budget surplus, we have the spectacle of groups of people who are suffering like that having to come in here to beg for small amounts of money in order to avoid being put in an even worse situation of poverty. That is a result of the political choices this Government has made in respect of particular groups, but also, in general, its choice not to protect people from the cost-of-living crisis.  I welcome some measures proposed in this motion, such as maintaining the excise cuts on petrol and diesel and not further increasing the carbon tax, but the truth is this motion does not go nearly far enough to protect people from this crisis. The crisis is getting worse and all the indications are it is going to continue to worsen. Why? Because of Trump's imperialist war on Iran, which continued with new threats last night. The Deputies in question obviously welcomed Donald Trump to Ireland. It is because of the Government's refusal to tackle the housing crisis or to stop the runaway growth of data centres from driving up energy prices, of which there is more and more evidence every single day. To really protect people, we need price caps not just on petrol and diesel, but also on electricity, gas, groceries and public transport fares. When prices keep rising, excise and VAT reductions are not enough. Even after the reductions, we are already back over \u20ac2 per litre of diesel, which is the level that prompted the fuel protests. Yesterday, we heard wholesale electricity prices are up 77%. We need price caps to give people security.  We also need to abolish the carbon tax. The Independent Ireland motion proposes scrapping the extra increases but the continuation of the carbon tax. We need to abolish the carbon tax entirely. People Before Profit has always said it is the big polluters who should pay, not ordinary people. All the evidence shows it is big business and the wealthy who have caused the climate crisis. Some 80% of emissions are coming from just 57 companies. Here in Ireland, it is big agrifood companies and big livestock farmers that are increasingly joined by big tech in terms of their data centres. They are the ones causing and profiting from the climate crisis.  However, we also need to get off our addiction to fossil fuels. We need to get people to switch to cleaner and cheaper renewable energy as quickly as possible and to use public transport or active travel. That cannot happen overnight, which is why we need price caps on fuel and energy. We need to massively increase the grants and pace of retrofitting and public transport roll-out. Every household that needs it should be getting free retrofitting and solar panels provided directly by the State. Instead of public transport fares going up, they should be going down and we should have free, green and frequent public transport. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Seamus Healy  Carbon tax is just another unfair tax heaped on families already reeling from a cost-of-living crisis and it must be abolished. It unfairly penalises working people rather than the big corporate polluters and drives families and vulnerable people deeper into fuel and energy poverty. The major polluters must be made to pay, including the big oil companies that are making obscene profits. The eight biggest companies have made $93 billion in profit in just three months.  Of course, most ordinary families will never benefit from the carbon tax. Retrofitting of council houses is almost non-existent. A recent report on local authorities shows that only 2,671 were retrofitted in 2025, 37 more than in 2024. Middle-income families already under huge financial pressure cannot raise the funds to cover the grant shortfall. This is called the green divide. Is it not contradictory that although we have a carbon tax, we continue to increase the cost of public transport, thereby forcing people back into their cars? A 15% increase was announced recently and there is more to come, as we were told at a recent Oireachtas meeting by the deputy chief executive of the National Transport Authority.  Petrol and diesel are essential rather than discretionary for hundreds of thousands of people, especially in rural Ireland where access to public transport is either very limited or non-existent. People in my constituency in south Tipperary have very limited public transport and therefore have no practical alternative to using a car. If you live in south Tipperary and work in Clonmel - in Abbott Vascular, Boston Scientific, Tipperary University Hospital, MSD, Medite, Tipperary County Council or any of the other businesses in the town - you must use a car. If you attend university in Clonmel, you must use a car. If you shop in Clonmel, you must use a car. If you attend college out of the county, in Waterford or Limerick, for example, you must use a car. Of course, farmers, agricultural contractors, haulage companies, small businesses and the self-employed have no alternative but to use petrol or diesel. The supports that are already in place must be retained and increased. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett  I welcome the fact that the Deputies have given us an opportunity to discuss the cost of living crisis and the energy price hikes, but I will repeat what I said last night: shame on Deputies, some of whom have put forward this motion, for expressing support for Donald Trump and his rotten agenda, which is directly responsible for the energy and fuel price hikes inflicting misery on hundreds of thousands of people, leaving hundreds of thousands of people in arrears and unable to pay their gas and electricity bills or crippled with the high price of home heating oil, fuel or diesel. Trump did that and the people who express support for him should be embarrassed by their support for that agenda and the misery it inflicts on people.  Of course, it is better than nothing to do as their motion does, which is to suggest we should defer further increases. However, what is actually necessary is imposing price controls on gas, electricity, petrol, diesel, home heating oil and all the things that have spiked as a result of Trump's war for oil.  It has also, more importantly, imposed death and destruction on the people of Palestine, the Middle East, Venezuela and so on. It is a war for oil which has now driven up the price of energy and fuel for people across the world, including in this country. We need to control the prices that he has driven up by imposing price controls to make things affordable and making those who are profiteering from the cost-of-living misery pay for it, which is also completely absent from the Deputies' motion and the Government's thinking or amendment.  We can protect people from the cost-of-living misery if we look at the massive profits of those who provide home heating oil, the cost of which went up again last year. The electricity and energy providers, oil companies, data centres and their billionaire owners have seen their profits go through the roof. Tax these people and make them pay their fair share of tax. Of course, we do not want to talk about that. We do not want to talk about the gross wealth and income inequality and the fact that there is a minority of people who are profiteering from the cost of living and housing misery that is being inflicted on others.  I hope and expect, although I say that half sarcastically, that the Deputies will be enthusiastic in supporting the public sector workers who are balloting for industrial action and demanding decent pay increases because of the rising cost of living and inflation caused by Trump's warmongering and the misguided priorities of this Government, which is always looking after the rich, the billionaires and the corporations that are doing so well while ordinary workers suffer. We intend to go much further in our amendment, by imposing price controls, introducing free and frequent public transport, and taxing the data centres in order to pay for real relief, to give people an energy credit, give people with disabilities support and to support workers balloting for decent pay. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Cahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Cahill  I welcome the opportunity to speak on this motion on fuel, energy and carbon tax relief. This issue matters enormously to people in my constituency of Kerry and across rural Ireland. When we talk about energy prices in this House, we have to remember that behind every statistic is a family, an individual trying to heat his or her home, a person trying to get to work or a small business trying to keep its doors open. In Kerry, many households are particularly exposed to the cost of home heating oil. For those families, filling an oil tank can mean a significant one-off expense. It is very different from receiving a monthly electricity bill and for many people it can create a serious cashflow challenge.  Energy arrears remain at historically high levels. The Commission for Regulation of Utilities, CRU, reported earlier this year that 316,000 domestic electricity customers and 179,000 domestic gas customers were in arrears, with average debts of \u20ac492 and \u20ac207 respectively. There is absolutely no question that affordability remains a serious issue but we also need to be honest about what Government can and cannot control. Energy prices are heavily influenced by international wholesale markets and geopolitical developments. The State cannot determine the international price of oil or gas and Mr. Trump has made hundreds of thousands of lives here at home and throughout the globe an absolute misery, of that there is no doubt.  What can Government do to protect households from these pressures? There has already been a very significant response. We have strengthened supports for people on lower incomes, including through the fuel allowance, and we have invested substantially in energy efficiency and retrofitting. Those measures are important because we should not simply be dealing with high energy bills year after year. We also need to reduce the amount of energy that households need to purchase in the first place. There are also measures taking effect in the electricity market. From October, the public service obligation levy is being reduced by 66%, while the CRU has reviewed network charges to limit the impact on customers. That is the type of practical intervention that can make a real difference to household bills.  On the motion before us, budget 2027 is just two weeks away. That is the appropriate point at which to consider the full package of measures, including taxation, energy costs, income supports and the cost-of-living crisis. We should look at the evidence and ensure that whatever measures are introduced are targeted towards the people who are experiencing the greatest pressure, including people in Kerry who are dependent on home heating oil. I will certainly be looking at what the forthcoming budget does to address these pressures. We should continue to invest in retrofitting and energy efficiency because making a home warmer and more efficient provides a longer-term benefit to the family than simply responding to a price spike. The CRU has also highlighted that suppliers have obligations to work with customers experiencing payment difficulties, including affordable repayment arrangements and protections against disconnection where customers are engaging with their supplier. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Heneghan  I thank the Deputies for bringing this forward. I really love talking about energy and savings. Last year, the Minister of State confirmed an underspend of \u20ac120 million. I understand that since then the SEAI has been spending it. The Minister of State will have no doubt heard me talk about plug-in solar. I want to imagine how that \u20ac120 million could be used immediately for the Irish public. Let us take a ballpark figure - back-of-the-envelope stuff - of \u20ac120 million. If we could bulk buy plug-in solar systems, which are on average \u20ac500 per unit on the German market, through a Government scheme and could get a reduced price of, say, \u20ac400 per unit, which could immediately be plugged in, that \u20ac120 million would mean 300,000 plug-in solar systems. That is 300,000 households, including apartments and properties on which solar systems cannot be on the roof, which would immediately start seeing savings.  Plug-in solar systems do not work like the ones on the roof. Electricity goes towards the path of least resistance, so it is for a fridge, washing machine or any appliance that is drawing electricity where one will see the savings. It is not like another system. At current electricity prices per kilowatt hour, and based on the UK savings of \u20ac230 per year - it legalised plug-in solar systems on 27 August - in the first year, from that \u20ac120 million, Irish households would see up to \u20ac70 million in savings. These plug-in solar systems last ten years. The payback and the return on investment is huge. I urge the Government to examine this. I know the Independents have been pushing it and supporting me on it.  We need to examine every assessment, the BER requirements, and the simpler retrofit system. I understand we cannot print money out of nowhere and I understand the carbon tax provides for these systems of retrofitting but I would love the money to be spent more efficiently. We should ensure people get the benefits, and not through a BER system or through someone who knows they have a grant, so they will increase the price of a system because they know they have a Government grant. We saw it with the cycle to work scheme. Some bikes suddenly had a higher price because the seller knew people were getting a grant. We see it with the solar schemes and with the retrofit scheme with the council where people put the price up because there is a council grant. That price gouging and gazumping needs to be examined. SEAI approval for solar system grants needs to be examined so the benefit goes to the people, not the people installing the systems.  We need to use infrastructure much more effectively, which is why I introduced to this House the Electricity Regulation (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 2026. I look forward to people on all sides of the House supporting that. I have introduced it and I look forward to debating it in this House. With the private wire system, if we have a large-scale energy user, it should be easier for them to create on-site renewable energy and reduce costs. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Danny Healy-Rae  I thank Deputy Michael Collins and Independent Ireland for giving us this opportunity to talk about these important issues. The carbon tax has to be got rid of.  Fuel is dear enough. The purpose it was brought in for in the first place does not exist now.  I want to talk about people in Kerry who use heating oil or kerosene. The cost of it has cone up from 90 cent to \u20ac1.68 this week. People just cannot afford that. They will only be able to purchase far less than what they need to keep themselves warm for the winter. It is the same with green diesel. Some people were not included in the packages given out in May. The agricultural contractors and farmers were given packages at that time to help them to reduce the cost of the green diesel. Many of them could not draw it down because they had infringements for spreading slurry outside of the time. Maybe some of them were not up to date with Revenue. They were not eligible. That is why the Government has some money left over. I am asking the Minister of State to check with the people who were refused and give it to them forthwith.  Another sector was left out completely. The Taoiseach was sitting where the Minister of State is now and said construction vehicles would be included. He said that sometime around 5 May. That has not happened. The construction sector has not been included at all. I raised with the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, last week, and he said that he was beginning to work on it now. I asked who the Minister in charge was. He did not know. He was not the Minister in charge. The Minister, Deputy Heydon, is not the Minister in charge of it. Is any Minister responsible to help the people with construction vehicles, whether it is diggers, rollers, cranes, or teleporters? They are all the different vehicles that use green diesel to keep them rolling in the construction and civil sector. They do maintenance along our roads, repair our water breaks and all those things. Quarries were meant to have been included. Those people did not get a bob. The T\u00e1naiste said that they were going to be covered. He said it to the media around that time. If a person does not have their word, they have nothing at all. The Taoiseach said in this Chamber that construction vehicles would be covered. They are not. It has gone from 90 cent up to \u20ac1.68 since. How long will it be before these vehicles grind to a halt? A lot of these contractors have entered into fixed contracts. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Conor Sheehan)  The Deputy is over time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Danny Healy-Rae  They are losing money, hand over fist. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Conor Sheehan)  Deputy, you are way over time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Danny Healy-Rae  I am asking the Government to come out and do something about it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Christopher O'Sullivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Christopher-O'Sullivan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Christopher-O'Sullivan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage (Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan)  As the Minister of State, Deputy Collins, said earlier, I reiterate that the Government is moving a countermotion in respect of the Deputies' Private Members' motion. I fully appreciate the Deputies' concerns raised here this morning. As a Government, we do not control the wholesale price of oil but we have acted in a significant way to assist households and businesses with the real impacts of this energy crisis.  As I have stated already, the Deputy's Private Members' motion does not fully reflect the considerable supports, which have been implemented by this Government. These are supports have been designed to share the burden of the conflict in the Middle East with households, farmers, agricultural contractors, hauliers, tradespeople and businesses. The motion also fails to take into account obligations set out in EU legislation in relation to fuel taxation, to which the Government must adhere, including Ireland's obligation in respect of the emissions trading system for buildings, road transport and additional sectors. The motion does not reflect that the reality of global commodity markets or recognise that the drivers of energy inflation are global in nature. Consequently, it is not possible for the State to fully absorb all of these costs. Government policy must be considered and measured.  To date, this Government has delivered one of the largest support packages in the EU per capita . In doing so, we have deferred the 1 May carbon tax increase on home heating fuels; reduced excise duty on diesel, petrol and green diesel; enhanced the diesel rebate scheme for hauliers and passenger transport operators, mitigating price increases in these sectors and the associated knock-on effects they have on food and passenger transport prices. We have funded payments to road transport operates under the road transport support scheme. We have funded payments to farmers, farm contractors and the fishing sector under the fuel income support scheme. We have reduced the NORA levy. We also extended the winter heating season by four weeks, increasing the total yearly payment to \u20ac1,216.  The Government recognises the exceptional pressure that rising fuel costs have placed on our farmers and farm contractors, and worked intensively with the representative stakeholder groups, with a view to providing adequate and targeted supports. The Government reduced the tax on MGO by 5.4 cent a litre, and the NORA levy by another 2 cent per litre. On top on that, the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine implemented a comprehensive \u20ac100 million fuel income support scheme to assist farmers, agricultural contractors and the fishing sector facing unprecedented increases in fuel costs, which gave a support rate equivalent to approximately 20 cent per litre of green diesel. This Government has been doing its best for farmers and the agricultural sector. I have no doubt that it will continue to do so.  As regards rural Ireland, I know better than most the impact that the fuel crisis is having on households in my constituency and others. I appreciate that people living in rural Ireland are twice as likely to use home heating oil as their main heating fuel. In fact, according to the latest CSO figures, around 26% of households in Ireland use it as their main heating fuel, which is around 500,000 households. This Government understands that these are disproportionately older, rural, and, in a lot of cases, lower income households. Many of these households would be eligible for the aforementioned fuel allowance. The Government is also very conscious of those who use home heating oil but do not qualify for that payment. That is why the upcoming budget will also deliver for middle-income families. The facts are that this Government has acted time and again to provide for households at risk of fuel poverty, and to ease the burden on all households impacted by the crisis.  The upcoming budget will build on the work of budget 2026 to protect households from rising energy costs. Budget 2026 provided an extension until 2030 of the 9% VAT rate currently applied to gas and electricity bills. It provided for enhanced social protection payments, including an increase to the fuel allowance rate. As mentioned, there was an expansion in the fuel allowance eligibility rules, benefiting approximately 50,000 households. It provided the \u20ac400 income tax disregard for households involved in microgeneration, which was extended for a further three years to the end of 2028. While no Government can fully shield households from all the impacts of this crisis, this Government has acted to mitigate the impacts of the crisis time and again. We have acted to support households, farmers, agricultural contractors, hauliers, tradespeople and businesses. This Government will continue to take action in budget 2027. For the reasons stated earlier, I reiterate the Government's countermotion. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Richard O'Donoghue  I will cover some of the comments those on my right made. They talked about Donald Trump coming to the country and said that some people went to meet him. I have no problem meeting Donald Trump. As a public representative, I would meet him because of 300,000 jobs in this country. If you multiple that by two or three, up to 1 million people are employed in this country as a result of American investment. That is why I would meet him. Do I agree with what is happening in the Middle East? I 100% do not. I am sitting here with some people to my right, or far right, and I do not agree with them but I acknowledge them the same as I would Trump. I will sit here and talk to the Deputies. It does not mean I like them or their policies but I will sit down in this Chamber and talk to them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  Deputy O'Flynn explicitly supported the kidnapping in Venezuela. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Richard O'Donoghue  The Deputy has had his time.  The Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach's party had a good old swing at us as well, so I will comment on it and its support of carbon tax. His colleague spoke a while ago. When the Labour Party was in government, it introduced water charges and property tax. It then cut child benefit, rent allowance and fuel grants and supported the USC. These are the same people who are trying to lecture me here today.  We will go back to the motion at hand. The Minister of State and the Department might just listen to this. I might be able to educate them today. The Government does not import fuel into this country. It has nothing to do with importing fuel into this country. Let us tell the public today that these are the facts. What the Government is responsible for is putting the taxation on the fuel when it lands here. I will tell everyone here today, including the people in the Gallery, who are all welcome, to please listen.  Fuel is brought into this country by the likes of Fuels for Ireland. It arrives and then all the taxes that the Government puts on it are collected at the port. It is then sent to distributors, who add the VAT for the local filling station. The local filling station then puts on three or four cent of its own. This Government has nothing to do with bringing fuel into this country. All it does is put tax on it.  I will simplify matters. If a litre of fuel comes into this country at \u20ac1, the Government puts tax of \u20ac1 on it. People in this country work and pay tax at 20% and 40%. I want everyone in this country to know that when they or their parents collect their children, when they go to hospital appointments, when they go to hurling matches and when they go to work to, for example, feed the vulnerable in this country, for every \u20ac1 of fuel they put into their cars at the pump the Government takes a \u20ac1 in tax. So, it is taking \u20ac5 in tax in every \u20ac10. People have voted Fianna F\u00e1il, Fine Gael and others into power. Those people have allowed them to do this every time. I would say to the people of Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael, for their children\u2019s sake or their grandchildren\u2019s sake, that we need to get rid of these people in government. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Christopher O'Sullivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Christopher-O'Sullivan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Christopher-O'Sullivan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan  The Deputy has a microphone. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Richard O'Donoghue  All they are good at is taxation. They talked about electric vehicles and that we need to change to them. They never mention that electric vehicles are twice as heavy on tyres as normal cars and twice as heavy on road surfaces. If you replace a battery in an electric vehicle, it will cost you \u20ac20,000 to do so when it has been driven for 200,000 km. They never mentioned about the cobalt that goes into these batteries. They mentioned that this year one in four cars sold were EVs, so that is 25% this year. They forgot to mention that EVs count for 4% of vehicles in this country and that 96% of people drive fossil fuel vehicles. It is those people work in this country and who look after other people every day that the Government is taxing, despite the fact that they pay tax at work. That is what the Government represents.  As a businessman, I would tell the Government to cap the tax on fuel. Take the tax up to a certain amount and the Government would have the same amount of tax - it would not be down 1 cent - but when the price of fuel increases, we will pay the increased tax without the 50% tax or a 100% tax on top of that. This is what we are asking. That is a business approach. Those in government would know nothing about that because they are not in business. Civil servants all the way up; never had to worry about putting food on the table for other employees. That is what is wrong with those in government. They came through the Civil Service and they knows nothing other than taking money off the hard-working people of Ireland. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Christopher O'Sullivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Christopher-O'Sullivan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Christopher-O'Sullivan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan  The Deputy is taking a swipe at the civil servants. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Conor Sheehan)  I call Deputy Fitzmaurice. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Fitzmaurice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Fitzmaurice.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Michael-Fitzmaurice.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice  On behalf of Independent Ireland, whether you agree or disagree with the motion, I want to say thanks to each speaker for making the effort. We respect democracy and we respect different views. People are entitled to their views.  There are a few things that need clarification. We have always put forward an option if people wanted to find the money. Some 340,000 or 350,000 flights come into Ireland, and people have a choice to fly or go on holiday. However, they do not have a choice about driving between 20 and 80 miles to work. The carbon tax is affecting that. We want solutions, but the problem is that the Government\u2019s masters in Europe will not allow it to do implement solutions at the moment. You can fly wherever you want on a holiday and not pay carbon tax. When you have to go to work, however, you pay carbon tax. Something just does not add up.  Retrofitting has been good. No one is against retrofitting - we are all for it \u2013 but a few things need to be made very clear. With the warmer homes scheme, if an engineer comes out and sees that someone has PVC windows and insulation on the walls, they will say \u201cBye, bye. No more. That is it\u201d. That is the box ticked. Let no one cod themselves about what has been done. Second, if someone has a dormer house, the engineer will run away. They will not do insulation on dormer houses. Those things need to be made very clear.  We in the D\u00e1il need to get a grip of ourselves. If we have more electric vehicles and there is more help for people, we are not opposed to that. Let us look at the statistics and the facts, however. Most cars bought in Ireland this year and last year are in the \u20ac10,000 to \u20ac15,000 bracket. You cannot buy a new electric car for that amount. That is what people can afford. We have to deal with the cards we have been dealt. No one has anything against giving more grants for EVs or whatever if the Government wants to do that, but this is the reality.  In addition, we just think we can run out of this room, flick a switch and go into a new world of wind, solar and whatever. Solar is very good in houses - there is no problem with it \u2013 but have a look at the TAMS grants. The system is now done on a points basis and farmers who wanted to get these grants are being refused them. That is the madness, and I smile about it at times.  On wind, more turbines have been put up around the country. However, there is a reality here. Look at the amount of wind in July. It is nearly as if people would deprive us of a bit of sun or the good summer we had this year. When we got a bit of fine weather and the turbines did not move, we were down to 22% for the month of July. That is the reality. What do we do when that happens? Do we say that we are going to live in this fancy, lovely world and knock off the lights for 80% of the people and leave them high and dry?  We need to focus on what we have. There are fossil fuels. Those fuels are going to be needed. If we move to other ways of doing things, that is fine. Provided it all adds up. If it does not add up, you do not make the decision. The one part that does not add up is for someone to tell people like those of us in the agricultural sector that carbon tax is a great thing and that it goes back to agriculture. In the past under REPS, when there was no carbon tax, farmers got nearly \u20ac1,000 more under their environmental payments. Those are the facts. They cannot be proved wrong. Show me why someone who does not have an alternative to using a harvester of 900 or 1,000 horsepower and who has to cut silage in one window of a particular month has to pay carbon tax when an alternative machine, whether electric or whatever, that can be used to do that work has not yet been made.  If we want to live in the perfect world, there is a thing called hydrotreated vegetable oil, HVO. The latter would reduce someone\u2019s emissions by something like 90%. Why are all the taxes on that if you want to tick the box? HVO, with modifications to a boiler, could be used in place of home heating oil and in diesel cars and tractors if it was made attractive to use. We put constructive proposals forward for the simple reason that we have to live realistically. We have to listen to the people. At the moment, people are hurting and when you are hurting you try and solve it and try and help them. That is our job collectively. It is not a case of \u201cMe better than you\u201d or anyone better than anyone else. We will disagree and have different viewpoints. Ultimately, however, people in each constituency voted for us to make their lives better. That is why I am asking the Minister of State to take that----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Christopher O'Sullivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Christopher-O'Sullivan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Christopher-O'Sullivan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan  Deputy Fitzmaurice is proof that you can make valid points without bursting our ear drums, screaming across the room and putting our hearing at risk? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Fitzmaurice","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Fitzmaurice.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Michael-Fitzmaurice.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice  I thank the Minister of State. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment to amendment put."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  In accordance with Standing Order 85(2), the division is postponed until the weekly division time this evening. The Minister of State\u2019s point is taken. To be fair, there are microphones. For staff and all Members in the Chamber, it should be considered that the microphones are on and everyone can hear you. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ken O'Flynn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ken-O'Flynn.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ken-O'Flynn.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ken O'Flynn  Some of us have deeper voices than others. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  I understand, but the staff have to be considered. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Fuel, Energy and Carbon Tax Relief: Motion [Private Members]"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-23\/debate\/dbsect_11","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna \u00f3 Cheannair\u00ed - Leaders' Questions","counts":{"speechCount":45,"speakerCount":11},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_11","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Deputies","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Kenny.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Martin-Kenny.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Kevin Boxer Moran","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Kevin-Boxer-Moran.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Kevin-Boxer-Moran.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mary Lou McDonald  L\u00e9ir\u00edonn an tuairisc a d'fhoilsigh Bonkers.ie inniu go mbeadh aon socair a chuirfear ar f\u00e1il sa bhuis\u00e9ad slogtha suas ag arduithe praghsanna. T\u00e1 go leor daoine \u00f3ga ag smaoineamh ar imeacht thar lear ar th\u00f3ir saol agus todhcha\u00ed n\u00edos fearr. Is \u00ed an cheist mh\u00f3r n\u00e1 cad a dh\u00e9anfaidh an Rialtas sa bhuis\u00e9ad chun an saol a dh\u00e9anamh n\u00edos inacmhainne?  We are now less than two weeks to budget day. The main thing on people's minds is the runaway cost of living, and the big question is what the Government will do to get costs under control and help households keep their heads above water. Prices keep going up, the bills keep coming in and people are really sick of being ripped off. This morning we hear that the pressure on workers and families is set to increase in the next few weeks. An analysis published by Bonkers.ie shows that households will have to pay out over \u20ac1,000 just to cover the list of price hikes that have already been announced. I refer to hikes in gas and electricity costs, health insurance, PRSI, mortgage repayments and streaming services. The Minister, Deputy Chambers, and Simon Harris therefore simply cannot come in here on 6 October and roll out yet another budget that fails to tackle the cost of living and leaves working people behind.  To be clear, the Government's failure to tackle the affordability crisis has real consequences. Yesterday, the National Youth Council of Ireland published a startling report. It revealed that seven in ten of our young people are considering leaving Ireland. The biggest factor driving this sentiment among our young people is their inability to live an affordable life here. That is a damning indictment of more than a decade of Fianna F\u00e1il-Fine Gael partnership Governments - budget after budget, decision after decision, short-changing working people and short-changing our young people. Young people have had it with being left at the back of the queue because our young people are smart and they get it. They hear from the Government that the economy is strong and the surpluses are large, yet they cannot get their start. They know also that while they are losing out, people at the very top are benefiting. They need to know that things can be different, that this is where they belong, that this is their country, that this is their home and that things can be better. Life can be affordable in Ireland, and this has to start with the budget.  The Government is floating and leaking a lot, but last night, in real terms, it faced its first test. It had the chance to back a Sinn F\u00e9in proposal to cut the cost of home heating oil by removing carbon taxes but it blocked that proposal and it failed that first test. It chose instead to let 700,000 households keep taking the pain.  Does the Minister accept or even recognise that the Government's policies have left young people behind? Does he accept or even recognise that its decisions leave working people behind? Does he accept or even recognise that households simply cannot afford another Fianna F\u00e1il-Fine Gael budget that delivers simply more of the same? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Deputies","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputies  Hear, hear. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation (Deputy Jack Chambers)  I completely reject the Deputy's constant failed state narrative, which Sinn F\u00e9in has been propagating for years now, from trying to break the State to then propagating a narrative that we have a failed State. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Kenny.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Martin-Kenny.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Martin Kenny  A failed Government. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  I reject that in the hardest terms. We have a country of full employment----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  There are 17,000 people homeless. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  -----with continued resilience of our economy, despite the multiple shocks of recent years, and a Government that is motivated to give young people hope when it comes to housing, when it comes to their future and in terms of their employment and their wages. That is our central motivation as part of budget 2027. It is to drive better affordability in our economy and, yes, to respond to the serious pressures that we recognise many families and households face when it comes to the cost of living.  That is why there will be a targeted income tax package prioritising low- and middle-income workers to reward work in our economy and give them a break. It is why we want to make significant interventions and further progress when it comes to housing and delivering greater housing supply across our economy because, yes, the challenges and the pressures faced by young people are concentrated in affordability of homes and of rent. That is why areas like the renter's tax credit are under further consideration by the Government. Third, it is about ensuring we build a country that continues the levels of employment we have and continues to attract jobs and grow our economy into the medium term. While Sinn F\u00e9in just attacks the Government two weeks out from the budget, we are preparing a sensible, responsible and affordable budget that we can sustain into the medium to long term. Sinn F\u00e9in makes commitments and promises that would break our economy and undermine the public finances. That is the challenge with Sinn F\u00e9in. It proposes higher taxes and massive increases in expenditure. That does not give young people the longer term hope or prospects to live and build a life here. Everything we are doing is to protect capital investment in housing and infrastructure, so we prioritise investment in transport infrastructure, reduce congestion and build the social infrastructure and the communities that are required right across the country.  Let me be absolutely clear: the central objective of this Government is to respond to that immediate pressure. That is why we will take further decisions when it comes to the pricing of energy in our economy on budget day. It is why we will respond to affordability challenges that young couples with children face when it comes to progress on childcare, for example. We want to ensure that the sentiment of young people is responded to in this budget with, again, improved housing supply and further progress in the delivery of social and affordable homes in 2027. That is the central motivation of the Government. Instead of just criticising, attacking and continuing with its negative dialogue day in, day out, Sinn F\u00e9in should come up with some suggestions or solutions for once----- "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(Interruptions)."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Please allow the Minister to answer. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  -----that would actually build hope in our economy, because all young people hear from Sinn F\u00e9in is higher taxes on work. How will that work for young people? They hear higher taxes on businesses that employ young people. How would that work for young people? How does that give them a greater prospect of a job in the medium term? There is also a level of objectionism to housing supply, which would not help housing supply in our economy. How would that help young people who need homes and want to buy homes across communities in our country?  We will respond to the issues with the cost of living, but we also need to be mindful that we are living with multiple conflicts internationally, a significant level of uncertainty in terms of the geopolitical position with the conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere. I think people understand that that is impacting pricing in our economy and that the Government can insulate to some extent but cannot insulate all elements of how pricing is changing. That is reflected not only in Ireland but also internationally. We will prioritise interventions to help people. That is the focus of the next few weeks. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mary Lou McDonald  There are absolutely solutions to all this. There is a constructive way forward. There is absolutely hope, especially for our phenomenal young people and for working families everywhere. Last night, we brought forward just one of those solutions, which could have had an immediate effect for 700,000 households, a solution to remove carbon taxes and make home heating oil in some way affordable for those families that were struggling. We will never apologise for shouting out for working people right across this land and for our young people, who have to be listened to, who have to be given hope and who have to see the solutions in concrete terms. That means a Government making the right choices. We need to choose working families, we need to choose our young people and we need to choose hope in the future and not to continue with the Government's track, which is to look after the better-off and the developers and not to upset the banks. That is what will give people hope, those concrete choices. Last night, the Government made its position clear. It chose not to intervene and not to support our solution. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  We did not acquiesce with Sinn F\u00e9in's classic political opportunism, which they repeat here every week. They are all about shouting out and giving no solutions to anybody. The higher level of tax they would impose across our economy would break it and it would not be able to accommodate half of the spending demands they continually repeat here. We did not agree to the Bill because we have a budget in two weeks. We have a budget that will help working people and reward work but also address some of the cost pressures families face, specifically with home heating oil. We have been clear that is a specific consideration in our tax policy measures and will be considered, as well as further deferral of excise on petrol and diesel. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(Interruptions)."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Your leader was not interrupted. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  We will use our budget with the T\u00e1naiste, specifically focusing on the energy issues families are facing. Sinn F\u00e9in is just seeking to bring that forward and score political points. That is not a solution or a constructive-type of opposition when we have a global conflict and significant international uncertainty. It is just populism, opportunism and a reckless imposition of taxes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Thank you, Minister. I call Deputy Cian O'Callaghan. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  It is the Sinn F\u00e9in approach. It does not work. It would break our economy, and it will give no hope to young people who want that certainty into the long term. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Thank you, Minister, time is up. I call Deputy O'Callaghan. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pearse Doherty  Says the party that broke our economy, the actual party that broke our economy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Deputy O'Callaghan is on his feet. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pearse Doherty  Honest to God, the Deputy has got a brass neck. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Deputy, please. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cian O'Callaghan  Minister----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pearse Doherty  Fianna Fail actually broke the economy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Excuse me. The Deputy is on his feet. Can we have some courtesy please? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pearse Doherty  There is only party in here----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Deputy Doherty, please. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pearse Doherty  -----that broke the economy, and it is over there on the other side of the Chamber. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Kevin Boxer Moran","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Kevin-Boxer-Moran.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Kevin-Boxer-Moran.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Kevin Boxer Moran  No pointing fingers now, Pearse. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Please, look here, can we all exercise some decorum? This has to run efficiently. Deputy O'Callaghan is on his feet. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cian O'Callaghan  This morning, I spoke with a mother about her 13-year-old son. He is autistic and non-verbal. In July he was told he had a place in Belmayne special school. I am sure the Minister can imagine the sheer relief and excitement of hearing that news. Starting a new school is a huge moment. One can imagine the logistics, planning and emotional preparation. Now, I want the Minister to imagine what it must feel like to be told you will be starting school in September, only for September to roll around and you are still stuck at home. When I spoke to this child's mother this morning she was at her wits' end. She told me her child is now going backwards. He is not sleeping. He woke four times last night. She spoke of her utter heartbreak watching children walk by the front window on their way to school while her child languishes at home with no solution in sight. This Government claims disability services are a priority. However, despite all of its pre-election commitments and promises, disabled people and their families continue to be failed. Every day they must battle with a State that is supposed to be there to help them just to get the bare minimum. Every day they learn that is too much to ask. The Taoiseach, Miche\u00e1l Martin, has been a champion of special schools. He has called them \"the future\" but he has not been so vocal on the serious issues these schools and their pupils are grappling with, even though it is in the Government's gift to resolve them. These schools need proper staffing levels, proper resources and multi-disciplinary teams.  I know some families watching this have children who do not have a school place. There are others attending special schools who are provided with just a few hours per day. Their children are denied the support they need to make their education a success. I want to be clear that these issues are not the fault of the staff, who are trying their best in difficult circumstances. The fault lies with the Minister's Government. It is only too happy to get the positive media coverage when announcing these new schools but behind the scenes it is failing to resource them with the staffing levels they need. Behind these headlines are young children sitting at home while their peers move on with their lives.  I have two simple questions. Does the Minister think any of this is acceptable, and when will the children promised a start in school this September, actually be able to take up a school place? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  I thank the Deputy. As a constituency TD like him, I regularly deal with many children who have in some instances not gotten a place. To be fair to the work of the Minister, Deputy Naughton, and the Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan, that has improved significantly at the start of September this year compared with previous years. I do not have the specific case details of the child in Belmayne the Deputy mentioned and I regret they do not have a place. We will take that up with the Department of education and the NCSC afterwards. Every child should have their educational rights vindicated in this State, including children who have special educational needs. What we have sought to do over the past number of years is to respond to the level of demand we have seen increase for special education across our State. We have 34,000 children who will be enrolled in special classes and special schools in this school year, which is an 86 % increase since 2020. In fairness to the NCSC and the Department of education, they have responded to that level of demand. Most children are being accommodated in special classes, and we have ramped up provision of special schools as well.  On the parent and child the Deputy is speaking about, that step change in investment, staffing and provision has not delivered for them. I will ask the different arms of the Department of education and others to respond to that. We have prioritised our wider budgetary provision on special education, which we have also engaged on at the Oireachtas committee. There is a \u20ac3 billion investment in special education for 2026, the highest annual provision in the history of the State and a 58% increase since 2020. You can see the front-line delivery of that. Special classes have increased by more than 136% since 2020 with more than 4,000 classes supporting more than 34,000 students.  I turn to the Deputy's question on staffing and supports. SNA numbers have increased by 45% with 26,000 SNAs expected to be working in schools by the year end. There will be 22,500 special education teachers in place by the year end. We have sought to prioritise this area because as constituency TDs we all recognise that no child should be at home when they should be in a school place, in a special class or a special school. The position and work of the Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan, and the Minister, Deputy Naughton, have improved that with the portal established to give much better forward planning 12 months ahead of schedule, so there is better ability for the NCSC to plan and respond to that demand. I will ask the respective State agencies to respond to the Deputy's specific case. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Thank you, Minister. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  The motivation of Government for next year----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  You will have a response. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  -----is to continue to resource special education in a way that meets the level of demand that is there. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cian O'Callaghan  Every child has a right to an education, and this Government is failing to deliver on their rights. As we speak there are children sitting at home without a school place. I have raised with the Minister that this is not isolated. There are children who were given school places and who were meant to start in September. They and their families were told at the beginning of July that they had a school place in September. At the end of August, after they kept chasing and chasing, they found out that the place they had been given and promised does not actually seem to exist at the moment. Why is that happening? Why are families being put through the trauma and stress of being promised a place and told their child has a place, and yet here they are coming towards the end of September, and the child is sitting at home regressing? The Government has promised them a place. Why are they at home? Why are they not in school? When is the Minister going to give these families some certainty about when their children can start school? They have been given no information at all - nothing. When is the Minister going to give them answers? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  I thank the Deputy. I just spoke with the Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan, about this issue. He said he will follow up on this particular case. The cohort of children who may be waiting this year is far smaller than in previous years because of the level of investment. However, it is incumbent to the Deputy's point that the NCSC and the Department of education ensure that where a commitment is made, it is delivered on. From my perspective, we have provided a prioritisation of this in our budgetary process to vindicate every person's educational rights, as should be the case. It is important that the respective bodies and structures there to deliver that do so for the children involved. In my constituency in previous years there was acute pressure in September of any given year and that has been reduced significantly in 2026 compared with previous years through the success of the portal and the forward planning structure.  Obviously, in the case the Deputy raised, that has not worked for them thus far. We will take up the case with the Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan, and engage directly with the Deputy about it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ivana Bacik  The whole country owes a debt of gratitude to Nikita Hand. We thank Nikita for the bravery she has shown. So many other people have felt emboldened to speak up about abuse they have experienced because Nikita's courage gave them courage. Speaking about her new book in recent days, Nikita Hand has talked with extraordinary dignity about suffering the trauma of rape and sexual violence. She has also spoken about the long-term impacts on her: PTSD; hours-long panic attacks; and experiencing her own body - in her words - being \"turned into a crime scene\". As she said, powerfully: \"You do lose a huge part of yourself when something so traumatic happens to you after being raped, or sexually assaulted\". The multimillionaire sportsperson who was found liable in a civil court is responsible for causing this loss to Nikita Hand, and his violation has continued long after the assault was over. Nikita should be, and is, the national treasure, not him. As a D\u00e1il, we have responsibility to show perpetrators that we reject them and their horrific conduct - that they are to blame.  But this is not Nikita Hand's ordeal alone. Tragically, there is an epidemic of sexual, domestic and gender-based violence in our society, and a culture of misogyny, which feeds the proclivities of perpetrators, who, frighteningly, walk among us every day. The Government's policy on gender-based violence is described as one of no tolerance but that zero-tolerance approach still sees parts of Irish society and the State tolerating the intolerable. Why should a victim be made to feel responsible for the reputation of the perpetrator or the well-being of his family? Why is it that domestic abusers can still use our courts system to wage further torment on the people to whom they cause such suffering? Why is it that, in just six months, nearly 2,000 women were turned away from domestic violence services due to a lack of State-funded beds?  For that matter, why is it that victims, usually women and children, still have to leave their own homes to seek safety? Why does the abuser get to stay in the family home? That is still the reality all too often. The stakes are high. Women's Aid records that nine women have been killed this year, already more than the total number of femicide victims last year. A quick escape can make the difference between a life saved and a life lost but, sadly, the difference between escape and remaining trapped can be heartbreakingly mundane: money for a taxi, a deposit for a flat or a new phone. That is why the Labour Party has proposed the safe fund - a three-year, \u20ac3 million, non-means-tested fund for immediate financial support to survivors of domestic violence when they need it, to be administered by Women's Aid, which I met recently to discuss this.  The Taoiseach has previously expressed warm words about our proposal, but the budget is in just two weeks and we have heard nothing from the Minister. He controls the purse strings. I have a simple question for him: will he commit today to save lives and fund the safe fund in budget 2027? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  I thank Deputy Bacik for raising this important issue. I echo what she said about the bravery, courage and leadership of Nikita Hand, who has done the State some service in her wider leadership over the last number of months. From all of what she has said, we must ensure that we continue to support many victims of domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. The Minister, Deputy Jim O'Callaghan, has led a number of initiatives in this area through some of his legislative reforms across the last 12 months. As Deputy Bacik said, the Government is taking a zero-tolerance approach to this and to ensuring that survivors can access the support, protection and justice that they need. Any such behaviour has no place in a modern society. To repeat, those engaged in domestic violence will be investigated and prosecuted. The work of the previous Minister, Deputy McEntee, and the Minister, Deputy Jim O'Callaghan, over the last number of years has shown that we are taking an unprecedented whole-of-government approach to the scourge of violence, which we are seeing too often in our communities. That was reflected in unprecedented funding of \u20ac80 million across the range of service provision in budget 2026.  To speak to the delivery of some of the accommodation, we are accelerating delivery of safe accommodation with a commitment to provide 287 safe spaces by the end of 2026, significantly strengthening capacity. As the Deputy knows, the Minister, Deputy Jim O'Callaghan, has progressed Jennie's Law, Valerie's Law and other important initiatives and has prioritised this in the context of the EU Presidency overall.  In response to Deputy Bacik's point on the budget, we will obviously continue our engagements as part of the Estimates process. We need to continue to make further progress in this area around the funding of the different initiatives that are involved, including accommodation, which is essential in communities where in some instances there is the gap that the Deputy referenced. We will continue to work to support Cuan, which provides leadership, oversight and accountability for delivery as well. We will consider that in the Estimates process overall. It will be a priority for the Government to continue supporting the co-ordinated response across many of the strategies that have been published and to make further progress in this area; that victims be supported not only at the point of crisis, but right the way through the justice system; and the different parts of the State are there to support them and have the respective funding streams to continue making progress in 2027.  We will consider the Deputy's specific suggestion. I appreciate her raising this important issue today. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ivana Bacik  I thank the Minister for his positive words. As he says, Nikita Hand has indeed done the State some service in speaking out and I acknowledge the progress that has been made, but there are still far too many gaps in provision for victims and survivors, as I think the Minister has acknowledged. Clearly, there are still serious gaps in the provision of refuge spaces. This is something we in the Labour Party have been speaking out on for many years now. We need to see that addressed urgently. The proposal we make - I will supply the Minister with more information on it - is a very practical one to address another very practical gap in support. To be clear, we believe that perpetrators should be the ones removed from a violent home, but so long as that is not always the case, State inertia is currently making it really difficult and sometimes impossible for those who experience domestic abuse to escape from violence, which puts lives in danger. Where do survivors go if they have no money? How do they get the immediate funds necessary to resource that escape, often with small children and sometimes in the middle of the night, as Women's Aid will tell the Minister and anyone who listens. That is why we have proposed the safe fund. It is a simple, straightforward proposal. It has been done elsewhere. We appeal again to the Minister to introduce the safe fund in this budget. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  I am sorry. There is a malfunction in the clock but I am watching the time on the screen. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  You will hold us to account on the time, a Cheann Comhairle.  I appreciate Deputy Bacik raising this. We will consider that with the Minister, Deputy Jim O'Callaghan, in the context of the Estimates. I know he is keen to ensure that there is further progress in 2027. We obviously want to give effect to the wider recommendations in the O'Malley review, which is all about seeking to supporting the victim's journey right through the criminal justice system and from the point of crisis right the way through. That speaks to the further progress we have to make with Cuan and the different State bodies and agencies that co-ordinate the response. We will give consideration to that. It is important as well to ensure that the broader State agencies are prioritising this in how we fund them, and that is something we want to continue to make progress on. The Minister is working on a new five-year strategy from 2027 to 2031 in terms of domestic, sexual and gender-based violence, which is to give further progress and momentum to this area and to develop that across the coming years. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Collins  I beg your indulgence, a Cheann Comhairle, for a few seconds to welcome all the councillors from Independent Ireland, from all over the country, that have come up to the D\u00e1il today, especially Councillor Mark Casey, who is joining Independent Ireland. He is our 27th councillor. We welcome him.  I want to talk about what is happening to families all over the country when it comes to the debacle that is school transport, because you could not make some of this up even if you tried. I will give the Minister a sample of the thousands of school bus ticket problems throughout Ireland. We have children who have held concessionary school bus tickets for the last number of years. Their paperwork describes them as priority concessionary applicants. This year, they have no seats on the bus, yet we are dealing with cases where people who have applied more recently for concessionary places have received tickets on the same buses. Will the Minister explain to me what \"priority\" means if a family that has held those seats for years suddenly loses them while fewer applicants are accommodated? We have students waiting for concessionary tickets yet we are informed that there are ten empty seats on the bus. These children have no proper way of getting to school while the bus is passing their door with empty seats. Then we have another young family who made the major decision recently to return home from Australia with their children. Their children are eligible for school transport, yet because of the timing of their application, they have been told their request will not be reviewed now. They may be accommodated in the 2027-28 school year, but even that is not guaranteed.  What are they supposed to do? Is one parent to give up work? Is that how we welcome a young Irish family back to rural Ireland? Then there is communication with Bus \u00c9ireann. Parents become desperate and frustrated. They come to our offices because they cannot get an answer. The public representatives themselves are then left waiting far too long for responses. I also want transparency on the allocation of concessionary tickets where a lottery or random selection process is used. Who conducts this? Who oversees it? How is it recorded? How can parents be satisfied that the system is fair?  The 2020 programme for Government committed to reviewing the school transport scheme to achieve better outcomes and reduce car journeys. The review was done. At the Fianna F\u00e1il Ard-Fheis in 2024 the then Minister for Education, Deputy Foley, stated the Government was going to reduce the distance rule to 1 km for primary schools and 2 km for post-primary school so that more children could gain access. She also stated the Government was going to introduce a system whereby the nearest school rule would be removed to give greater choice and greater flexibility. Why has the Government not delivered? Why are children being left on the side of the road? Why are parents stressed out of their minds trying to get their kids to school? Parents are trying to get out to work in a cost-of-living crisis so why is the Government not delivering on the promises it made in 2024?  Fianna F\u00e1il went into the 2024 general election promising 100,000 additional students on school transport by 2030. Similar promises were made in the 2025 programme for Government. What is the Government waiting for? When will the Government implement the school transport review it has already committed to? Does the Government still stand over the commitment made by the then Minister, Deputy Foley, to reduce the distance criteria to 1 km for primary pupils and 2 km for post-primary pupils? Will the Government remove the nearest school rule? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  I thank Deputy Collins. As he knows, the wider organisation and the operation of it is managed by Bus \u00c9ireann and the Department of Education and Youth sets the wider policy and the funding profile. To answer the question, if we stand back and look at the funding of the school transport scheme from 2019 or 2020 to this year, it has expanded significantly. We had 120,000 children using the service in 2019 and this number is now at over 180,000 pupils in 2026. This is a 50% growth in a very short number of years. This speaks to a Government that has prioritised this and is funding it at a greater level. The funding for school transport in 2019 was approximately \u20ac219 million and this will rise to more than \u20ac600 million this year. This is a scheme that is heavily subsidised, and rightly so, and supports many families throughout the country.  With this level of growth there are certain constraints in areas where the demand has risen. This is managed, as Deputy Collins knows, by Bus \u00c9ireann and the current terms of the scheme are continuing to apply for the 2026-2027 school year. This means children are eligible for transport at primary level where they reside not less than 3.2 km from and attend their nearest school and at post-primary level where they reside not less than 4.8 km and attend the nearest school.  As eligible children have to be facilitated in the first instance, the available of concessionary transport varies from year to year and cannot be guaranteed for the duration of the child's time at a particular school. Bus \u00c9ireann has always arranged for the service to be full based on the capacity of the vehicle and there can be instances where a given bus may have empty seats. As we know, some people do not always use their ticket for various reasons during a particular year. Bus \u00c9ireann can only reallocate tickets that have been handed back by a family.  We have the Estimates process upcoming. What we have had to do over the past 12 months in particular is to manage a level of demand that has increased significantly to absorb it with additional capacity. Every year we have to assess what the projected demand will be in the next school year and what the capacity constraints are in the system to deliver against this. This will be the same for this year. Obviously we want to see more children using school transport. This speaks to the level of funding, which we have increased in the last number of years. Any further changes to be considered as part of the Estimates process will come down to the extent to which the funding support can grow, the demands projected by the Department of education and Bus \u00c9ireann's capacity to put it into operation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Collins  I thank the Minister. The school transport scheme has been reviewed and promises have been made yet children are still being left behind. This is the major issue we have. How can a child have no transport while a bus passes their door with ten empty seats? Why are priority concessionary pupils receiving no apparent priority? When will the nearest school restriction, and this is a very serious question on which the Government has promised but not delivered, be changed? Have the promised 100,000 additional places been delivered? The Minister has said that 60,000 or 70,000 have. When will extra buses be rolled out for children who need to go to school?  We also need a fair electronic system to detect non-use and to reallocate seats that are persistently unused to children who desperately need them. Basically it should be a case of use it or lose it. These are children trying to get to school. They are not numbers on a spreadsheet. If Bus \u00c9ireann and the Department cannot administer the scheme properly and make sensible use of empty seats, is it time to hand its administration to somebody who can? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  The challenge is that if we were to follow through on Deputy Collins's suggestion and remove the system we have today, it would be far more challenging for many of the pupils and students who use it. It is a very complex system built up over many years, which has significant organisation to it across many parts of rural Ireland. If we were to follow through on what Deputy Collins suggested, we would have significant disruption to service capacity right across the country and we need to be cognisant of that.  What we will seek to do in the budget is, obviously, to assess the wider demand projection for 2027-28. Also, we know there is increased demand, particularly at second level, which has to be accommodated and obviously different distances are required there. We will assess that. What we are saying is that we will have to assess the demand profile and what the consequences are in terms of what is required in direct Exchequer funding. That is our wider assessment around how we would phase any changes to the existing criteria, to answer Deputy Collins's question. We will continue to keep this under review as we assess the wider dynamics of school transport. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna \u00f3 Cheannair\u00ed - Leaders' Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-23\/debate\/dbsect_12","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna \u00f3 na Comhalta\u00ed Eile - Other Members\u2019 Questions","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_12","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Kyne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Kyne.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Kyne.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Kyne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Kyne.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Kyne.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Se\u00e1n Kyne  I wish to raise the future of Galway Port with the Minister this morning. I believe he has an important role to play, as Minister for Public expenditure and due to his previous role as Minister of State at the Department of Transport who had responsibility for ports and who visited and engaged with Galway Port CEOs, the harbourmaster and the chairs of the Galway Port company over the years.  Under the national ports policy 2013 Galway Harbour Company transferred ownership to Galway City Council. The transfer changed the shareholder but did not resolve Galway Port's long-term place in the national port system. This year Galway Port received planning permission for its ambitious but realistic extension and relocation plans, which will include a rail link and will cater for larger cargo ships, including naval berth, allow for easier and safer access for cruise ships, free up land for housing in the inner harbour, provide additional leisure and recreational land, have a positive impact on the city council's rates base and protect the city from flooding surges. I am sure the Minister will agree that all of these are positive.  However, the draft ports policy, which ended its public consultation at the end of August, continues to include Galway Port as a port of regional significance only. Why is Galway the exception among Ireland's port cities? Dublin, Cork and Waterford are included as national ports, as is Limerick via Foynes. What is the funding route for Galway Harbour Company's extension shortfall? It has its own resources and it can sell land and draw down a loan, but there will be a shortfall as the Minister is aware. Will the ports policy accept that Galway has huge international demand from cruise ships, with bookings extending into 2033?  In its submission Galway City Council stated local authority-owned ports should have equal access to State, EU and blended funding where projects satisfy transparent criteria and deliver national, regional or public value. Equal access does not mean that every project should be funded but it means that projects should be assessed on their own merits rather than excluded because of ownership, in this case local authority ownership, or port classification, in this case as a regional port.  Galway Port is, since the last ports policy, part of the EU TEN-T comprehensive network and this recognition should have practical consequences in national investment planning, infrastructure development and access to appropriate funding. Galway City Council's request is that the final ports policy should explicitly state the future role of Galway Port in the national commercial port and TEN-T networks.  The policy should also confirm that all ports within its scope, including local authority-owned ports and TEN-T ports, that are not ports of national significance, may access Exchequer, European and blended finance through transparent project-based criteria. This must include an Exchequer funding route for maritime safety, access and resilience infrastructure where the wider public benefits cannot be funded from port revenues only. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation (Deputy Jack Chambers)  I thank Deputy Kyne for raising this important issue. I am very familiar with the Port of Galway, having visited it many times in my role as a Minister of State at the Department of Transport. I know the ambition in the port to grow, as well as the Deputy's wider work in Galway West over the last number of years to bring that to fruition.  As the Deputy knows, the draft revision of the national ports policy, for which the second public consultation period ended on 28 August, confirms the importance of the Galway Harbour Company and other ports of regional significance to their immediate hinterlands and, crucially, to supporting balanced regional development. It is supportive of all ports of national and regional significance in maximising their contribution to meeting the needs of the State. The wider programme for Government commits to supporting investment in our commercial and passenger port infrastructure through that national ports policy.  We approved that new policy as a Government on 16 June and it encourages all ports with commercial activity not only to contribute to the facilitation of trade but also to support renewable energy, energy security, climate adaptation and decarbonisation goals, both within their regions and across the State as a whole. In this context, I welcome An Coimisi\u00fan Plean\u00e1la's decision in April of this year to grant planning permission for the extension of the Port of Galway, marking a significant infrastructural milestone for Galway city and the wider west of Ireland. To the Deputy's point, this project represents a very positive example of ambition and growth and the necessity for balanced regional development.  The Minister for Transport has advised me, though, that 91 written submissions were made during the recent consultation on the draft revision of the national ports policy, including from the Galway Harbour Company, Galway City Council and Galway County Council. These are currently being assessed by the Department of Transport. It is the intention of the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, to submit a final draft of the policy to the Government by the end of the year.  With our new national ports policy, we are trying to ensure that our ports are that growth centre for renewable energy and the intensification of housing supply and to ensure that we build that regeneration, which is possible. Obviously, there will have to be choices around how we allocate capital to that, which is something for the Government to consider when the new national ports policy is developed. It has much more ambition than where the national ports policy sits today. I know it was significantly constraining, particularly for regional ports across our country. They may not have been able to develop in line with their wider ambition up to now. I think the new ports policy will be a catalyst for much greater economic development for ports of regional significance. We will have to make choices on what the funding for that will be, but, between the continued work to get planning permission in respect of development and the finalisation of the new national ports policy, it will represent an important ability to follow through on that wider ambition for the Port of Galway. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Se\u00e1n Kyne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Kyne.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Kyne.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Se\u00e1n Kyne  I thank the Minister for his response. He spoke about renewable energy. The Port of Galway presently handles about 20% of Ireland's onshore wind development components. Unfortunately, the Port of Galway has been judged by its existing tonnage capability rather than what it can achieve and will achieve in its new port extension. It was a different world and a different era back in 2013. Many people, including members of the Minister's own party, quite rightly criticised that ports policy, but it is continuing now in the draft policy. That mistake is continuing on now in the draft policy. My request to the Minister, the Taoiseach, the T\u00e1naiste, the Minister for Transport and the Minister of State with responsibility for ports in the Department of Transport, is that it be ensured that the next and final policy delivers for the Port of Galway and for Galway city. It has to deliver for the Port of Galway and for Galway city. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  In the first instance, the ports policy is seeking to prioritise the commercial aspect of each port of national or regional significance. That is an important principle and discipline across how we manage all our ports. It also speaks to wider that ambition which may not have been reflected previously and the potential of ports around renewable energy, energy security and other issues, which may not have been assessed to the same extent at the time of the previous ports policy.  This is why the further consultation was ongoing and why we want to continue that engagement on the draft ports policy. It still has to come back to the Government for a final decision by the end of the year. As per the programme for Government and the commitment to develop a new national ports policy, we are clear that we do want to ensure that the momentum in infrastructural development and balanced regional development happens in the Port of Galway and across the west of Ireland, with its huge potential for renewable energy. We want to fulfil that ambition through this ports policy. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna \u00f3 na Comhalta\u00ed Eile - Other Members\u2019 Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-23\/debate\/dbsect_13","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Pholasa\u00ed n\u00f3 ar Reachta\u00edocht - Questions on Policy or Legislation","counts":{"speechCount":48,"speakerCount":22},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_13","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanna Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Liam Quaide","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James O'Connor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-O'Connor.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"James-O'Connor.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Maxwell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louis O'Hara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Stanley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Shane Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Shane-Moynihan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Shane-Moynihan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Murphy.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Michael-Murphy.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Heydon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Heydon.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Martin-Heydon.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Duncan Smith","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Duncan-Smith.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Duncan-Smith.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanna Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joanna-Byrne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joanna Byrne  This week, our national football team looks set to line out against the terrorist State of Israel in the Nations League. The Government has been completely devoid of leadership and humanity on this issue and its inaction and reluctance to intervene or enable the FAI to withdraw from fixtures will be a lasting stain on our nation.  Sporting infrastructure and stadiums have been obliterated and 75,000 Palestinians have been murdered. This includes 566 footballers, 100 of whom are children, who have been murdered. The Government has chosen to sit on its hands and make Ireland complicit in sportswashing genocide. In referencing genocide yesterday, the Taoiseach himself stated that Israel cannot continue denying what the world knows. We now need action to back up the Government's words and soundbites when it comes to challenging Israel on its ethnic cleansing mission in Palestine. What is it to be: 90 minutes of football and six points or 75,000 lives? What matters more? The Government and the FAI have left our footballers exposed and hung out to dry. They should never have had to shoulder this burden. I am asking the Government, once again, to intervene to stop these games. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation (Deputy Jack Chambers)  We heard the Taoiseach's remarks yesterday and we saw the personalised comments directed by the Israeli FA at Heimir Hallgr\u00edmsson, which were completely inappropriate. We have been clear in all of what we have said on this and other matters relating to Israel, Gaza and the shocking actions of Israel. We have been consistent on this. The only place where we get criticism of it is in this House. There is a very strong view across the Government of complete solidarity with the people of Palestine and regarding the genocide which is occurring in Palestine. There is total solidarity in the House here with the people of Palestine. The Deputy knows as well as everybody else that the Government does not control what fixtures are fulfilled. The FAI has articulated the reasons for which it is continuing with that particular fixture, over which we do not have control. We have to respect the FAI in respect of running games. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Liam Quaide","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Liam Quaide  Imagine a new mother in acute psychological distress being told that to get the inpatient care she needs she must be separated from her baby. This is still the reality in Ireland because, nine years after it was recommended, we still do not have a specialist mother and baby unit. This is highlighted today on thejournal.ie . The Irish Association for Infant Mental Health, I-AIMH, is clear that women and babies should be supported together. We know this in our bones. A mother and her baby should not be separated. That early bond is foundational and separation can worsen the mental health difficulty itself.  This sits against the gravest possible backdrop. Suicide is the leading cause of pregnancy-related deaths between six weeks and one year after birth. Ireland, of all countries, should understand the consequences of separating mothers and babies. We have a painful history of doing exactly that. A modern health service should never recreate that separation. After nine years, what is holding this unit up and when exactly will it open? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Mary Butler)  Perinatal mental healthcare has been transformed over the past ten years. We now have six consultant-led multidisciplinary teams in our major maternity hospitals and specialist perinatal midwives providing targeted supports in a further 13 hospitals. This means that perinatal mental health services are now available in all 19 maternity hospitals. The demand has been huge. Nearly one in five of all pregnant mothers has looked for support. Some need more support than others. In budget 2026, I funded a further consultant psychiatrist to work in two of the main teams in Dublin, at the Rotunda and the Coombe.  In relation to the specific question from the Deputy, St. Vincent's University Hospital has been selected as the location for Ireland's first perinatal mother and baby unit. The Department of Health continues to progress this plan as part of the wider capital plan.  I have secured up to \u20ac470 million for mental health capital spending up to 2030. I hope to progress this project as quickly as possible. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ivana Bacik  The Minister, Deputy Chambers, spoke about solidarity with the people of Palestine but it is appalling to see the Government refusing visas for students from Gaza who are fleeing a genocide and have already secured funded scholarships in Irish universities. There is an ongoing case involving nearly 30 such students, which the Government is fighting in the courts. From what we know of the reasons given for visa refusals, the grounds seem really spurious, including an inability to supply original documents from banks and post offices that have been bombed to dust in Gaza. One engineering student literally risked his life crossing the Gaza Strip to do a required English proficiency test, which he passed with flying colours, only then to be refused a visa to come here to take up his place. Serious contradictions in Government policy have emerged. The Department of further education encourages students from Gaza to apply for scholarships here, while the Department of justice condemns them to remain in a war zone by refusing visas. How can the Government stand over such a cruel policy? The justice and further education Ministries are held by Fianna F\u00e1il. The Minister, Deputy Chambers, and his colleagues could address this issue by granting visas. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  The Government is deeply conscious of the humanitarian crisis facing Palestinians. Ireland has consistently stood in solidarity with the Palestinian people, including by supporting access to higher education opportunities in this State. Since the outbreak of the war in 2023, 90 students have been awarded Government-funded scholarships to study here. In addition, approximately 60 Gazan students have come here to study in that period through scholarships offered directly by higher education institutions. For the 2026-27 academic year, data from the Department of justice tells us that 50 student visas have been granted to students from Gaza. The Ministers, Deputies Lawless and Jim O'Callaghan, are now engaging directly with higher education representative bodies to progress a clear pathway for eligible students for the next academic year. We all are in solidarity with Palestinians. We all want to see these scholarships awarded and visas facilitated. It is a matter then of each individual application being assessed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  It is almost two years since Dr. Abu Safiya was detained by the Israeli occupying forces. His crime was to not abandon his hospital in Gaza. He is being held in solitary confinement. He is being kicked, beaten and tortured every single day. He has not been charged with any crimes. He is just one of hundreds of thousands of victims of Israel's genocide, brutality and occupation. It is scandalous that the Minister stands in this Chamber again and again to talk about genocide but he will not say that our football team should not be normalising the genocidal Israeli state by playing football against its team. It is absolutely scandalous. I appeal to the Ireland players to do the right thing. The Government and the FAI are not brave enough to say we should not play football against baby killers. Unfortunately, it is now in the hands of the players to do the right thing, shame the Government and show the whole world where the support of the Irish people lies. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  I reiterate our position of total solidarity with the Palestinian people. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  Do something then. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  There is a collective view in this House on the shocking genocide that has occurred. As I have said to the Deputy's colleagues, the Government does not and cannot decide whether a fixture will be fulfilled. The FAI has set out its reasoning for fulfilling this particular fixture. We have heard the comments by the Irish manager, Heimir Hallgr\u00edmsson, who, like his players, is in total solidarity with the Palestinian people. The FAI has engaged with UEFA as part of addressing its concerns regarding this particular fixture. The Government has no role in organising fixtures or deciding whether they are played. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn  It has been reported to me by a worker in the national children's hospital that there are major problems with 400 bathrooms in the new hospital in terms of the insulation that was used. I have been told there will be massive delays while the defective bathrooms are being fixed and this will cost the taxpayer dearly. As we know, portions of the insulation used previously at the hospital were similar to those involved in the fatal 2017 Grenfell Tower fire. Another worker has told me the ventilation system in the hospital is still not up to clinical standard. Approximately 5,000 rooms are involved. At the latest count, some 100,000 defects have been identified in the hospital, there were 20 missed deadlines and the construction cost has ballooned to \u20ac2.24 billion. The facility was supposed to open six years ago. Will the Minister tell the D\u00e1il today when those 400 bathrooms will be fixed, at what cost to the taxpayer and who will be held to account? When will the incineration of taxpayers' money end? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  We are all agreed on the need to ensure lessons are learned from that particular contract. We have had independent evaluations of what occurred and they absolutely will inform future contracts, whether in health infrastructure or in other areas. That is well documented and has been well debated here and at Oireachtas committees. I do not have to hand the specific detail on the issues the Deputy has raised. No hospital should open unless it meets regulatory standards for patient safety. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn  Will the Minister come back to me with specific details? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  I will ask the Minister for Health or Children's Health Ireland to respond to the specific concerns expressed by particular workers and raised by the Deputy today. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James O'Connor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-O'Connor.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"James-O'Connor.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James O'Connor  An important survey done by the National Youth Council of Ireland shows that seven in ten young adults have considered leaving this country to go abroad for a better quality of life. As a young person in politics supporting the Government, I want to ask the youngest member of the Cabinet how the Government feels about this specific issue. We know the economy is in a sound and solid position but people are not feeling that in their ordinary lives, particularly the young people who want to access housing and a better quality of life. Is there more the Government needs to do to respond to the sentiment expressed by young people that democracy in Ireland is not working out for them and their families? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  The sentiment of young people is absolutely essential in how we frame and decide different policies. The single biggest priority of the Government is ensuring supply and affordability of housing. We want to ensure young people have the prospect of owning or getting a home and that there is rent affordability. To give balance to the survey the Deputy mentioned, many young people are coming back to live in Ireland and are getting jobs here. Of course, I am as concerned as anybody by the sentiment reflected in the National Youth Council of Ireland survey. Our central focus in the budget will be on the cost of living, affordability in people's day-to-day lives and, most importantly, improving housing supply, including by building social infrastructure and homes in communities right across the country. The central issue feeding the sentiment expressed in the survey is the need to address affordable housing and wider housing supply. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Maxwell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"David-Maxwell.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy David Maxwell  My question concerns the inadequate school transport services this year and every year for rural families. We see countless families who have paid on time for the tickets they applied for, only to be told there is no place on the bus. Some children, having used a bus for a number of years, were advised this summer that there is no room for holders of concessionary tickets. Parents tell me they see school buses passing down their road with empty seats. Will funding be approved in the budget to allow for the upgrading of buses, including, for example, from a 20-odd-seater to accommodate a greater number? There are options to tackle this problem. I am making the case for more funding for school transport to allow children to travel to school without this major headache for parents next year. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  I know people in some rural communities, where there is a certain level of demand, do not have a ticket or have had issues with the organisation or operation of this service. It is important to stand back and look at overall Government investment in the service. As I have said previously in the House, it has increased exponentially. The funding of the school transport system must be sustainable and must fit within our broader medium-term plan for growth and expenditure in the economy. The funding has gone from \u20ac219 million in 2019 to more than \u20ac600 million this year. The future profile of that funding must be sustainable and must fit within our broader plans. We want to support improved capacity. We have seen the level of demand increase from 120,000 children in 2019 to 180,000 in 2026. That represents such positive use of the service but, obviously, it has presented some capacity constraints. We will work with the Minister for education to ensure we continue to improve the service in the months ahead. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louis O'Hara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Louis O'Hara  I have been contacted by a group of midwives in Galway who have completed their internships. They are fully qualified but have been informed that there is currently a recruitment freeze in the health service and positions will not be offered to them. This is despite the fact that the director of midwifery at University Hospital Galway has confirmed to them that there are currently 23 vacant midwifery posts across the Galway University Hospitals. These midwives have spent years in education, training and gaining clinical experience in order to qualify. We know that there are significant staffing pressures in our hospitals. It is totally unacceptable that they would not be employed within our public health service. This is a direct result of Government policy, which has imposed unrealistic budgets and which has restricted hospitals from directly recruiting the essential staff they need. These talented people who have worked hard to qualify as midwives deserve to be employed by the HSE. These vacant posts should be filled in order that these midwives can provide care to women and families and not be lost to countries abroad. I want the Minister to give a commitment that this will happen. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  Budget 2026 allocated \u20ac27.4 billion in funding for the health system in 2026, which is a record allocation of current expenditure and an increase of 6.2% on 2025. We stood up a structure of regional executives that were given an employment allocation in the context of the record budget we introduced. In some instances, those executives recruited in excess of that. It is matter for those executives, in conjunction with the HSE and the Department of Health, to ensure that we absolutely prioritise clinical staff, nurses and the front-line interface of patient services.  I reject the suggestion that we have an underfunded health service. We have a health service that has been funded to an exceptional level over the past number of years, rightly so, and that has been underpinned by Sl\u00e1intecare and so on. We also need to ensure we prioritise how we recruit. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louis O'Hara","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Louis-O'Hara.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Louis O'Hara  What about the recruitment of these midwives? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  I am sorry Deputy, time is up. I call Deputy Darren O'Rourke. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  It is a matter for the HSE----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Minister, time is up. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  -----and the Department of Health to prioritise any further recruitment in line with the budget we have provided. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darren O'Rourke  I wish to raise the school transport scheme. Thousands of children across the State have been left without places on school buses. Scores of children in my county of Meath, including at least 23 in north Meath who attend to O'Carolan College in Nobber, have been affected. The Government conducted a review of the scheme. It emerged that what locks many people out are the eligibility criteria. People who qualify for concessionary tickets are being left off school buses. Bus \u00c9ireann says that it cannot sanction extra places for concessionary pupils without getting the okay from the Minister. I am looking for the Minister to okay those additional places. When will the eligibility criteria be changed in line with the Government's review? Will the Government introduce a monitoring system in respect of the actual usage of the tickets? This is a significant issue. Tickets are allocated but many are not used on a daily basis. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  This has been a big priority for Government over the past number of years. That is reflected in how we have budgeted for this and how we expanded the scheme. There has been a 50% increase in pupils utilising school transport this year compared with 2019. That has been reflected in how we are supporting it. I accept that there are particular issues in feedback from local communities where a ticket is given and not utilised and where another pupil who requires a ticket is not given one. There should probably be better monitoring by Bus \u00c9ireann and the Department of education in order to ensure that we ensure that we maximise capacity. That is a frustration for parents and children. I will reflect the feedback from the Deputy to the Department of education. This is something that should happen. It should be a use-it-or-lose-it policy rather than a ticket being bought or a concessionary ticket being given and then not being utilised throughout the year to the detriment of someone who would use it. We can better manage current capacity within that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Stanley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Brian Stanley  While there have been some moves in regard to e-bikes in the context people being obliged to wear high-vis vests and helmets and a bans for under-18s, all of which are welcome, the number of serious injuries and fatalities continues to increase. In 2021, there were 173 hospital presentations and 309 in 2025. The signs are that it will be worse this year. Existing laws, including the new ones, are not being enforced. People continue to ride on footpaths and are not wearing helmets or high-vis vests. Those under 18 also continue to ride these scooters. Pedestrians are being put at risk. Garda\u00ed say they cannot pursue those involved. One garda has already been in court in Dublin over this. The situation needs to be fixed.  I am not in favour of a ban. E-scooters are a cheap and eco-friendly way for people to get around, particularly for people getting to work. It is not a case of banning them; it is a case of enforcement. The enforcement of existing rules, along with new laws requiring registration, insurance and a basic driver's licence, are needed. Government promised a lot of action over the summer. That action was needed yesterday and it is needed now. Will the Government legislate to have these scooters registered and introduce a requirement for the people who ride them to be have insurance and licences? Will it bring in legislation to enable garda\u00ed to enforce the rules, particularly in relation to pursuit? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  When canvassing over the summer, this was one of the major issues reflected in many estates right across my community. There is serious concern about the misuse of e-scooters and scramblers. We have taken action in the context of the existing laws. The Minister of State, Deputy Canney, has signed some of the regulations around this that are being introduced. We need to listen to the feedback of the clinicians appearing before the Oireachtas committee this week about further actions that may be required. We also need to be open to further legislative intervention if this continues to be a serious issue in communities across the country.  To be fair to An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, it has significantly increased its enforcement activity in this area. The Garda authorities report that there were 1,412 incidents in which e-scooters were seized in the first half of this year. That compares with 931 such incidents in the whole of 2025. The force has significantly improved the level of enforcement activity, but we do need to keep the legislation under review to ensure that we drive greater enforcement in this area. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Stanley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Brian Stanley  They have to be able to pursue them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Deputy Michael Collins is on his feet. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Collins  I wish to raise the completely unacceptable situation facing families on Cape Clear Island off west Cork. One family who contacted me is caring for an elderly mother who has a progressive neurological condition and who requires 24-hour care. Her 81-year-old husband and daughter are doing everything they possibly can but they cannot replace a proper health service. The facts are stark. Cape Clear had no nursing cover whatsoever for the entire month of July. A nurse was present for only five days in August. Across the period of 20 months examined, there was no full nursing cover over half of all days. This island is located 12 km off the coast of west Cork. When something goes wrong, people cannot simply drive to the emergency department. The community reports 13 medical evacuations since January, including five in just ten days in August. This situation cannot continue. I ask for three commitments, namely: restore consistent full-time public health nurse cover on Cape Clear; put guaranteed replacement cover in place when that nurse is unavailable; and restore proper home help and home support services for vulnerable islanders. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  I thank Deputy Collins for raising this important issue. I acknowledge the concerns raised by residents and by the Deputy relating to nursing services on Cape Clear. HSE South West has acknowledged challenges in the recruitment of nursing staff to Cape Clear in recent years. Notwithstanding these challenges, the HSE has advised that a regular nursing service continues to be provided on the island in line with population needs. A registered general nurse is based on Cape Clear from Monday to Friday and on alternate weekends. A public health nurse, based in Skibbereen, supports the service as well through the provision of specialist-based nursing services and by attending the island as required. Additional nursing supports, I am informed, are being provided from Skibbereen during periods of leave or absence. Contingency arrangements are also in place during periods when a nurse is not expected on the island due to unexpected leave, including prioritisation of urgent cases. It is important, as the Deputy said, that the people of Cape Clear have confidence in safe and appropriate nursing services. I will reflect the Deputy's concerns to the Minister. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Shane Moynihan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Shane-Moynihan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Shane-Moynihan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Shane Moynihan  Ba mhaith liom labhairt inniu maidir le c\u00farsa\u00ed a bhaineann leis an gcead\u00fanas tiom\u00e1na. I ask for some common-sense interventions with regard to certain categories of driver licensing that we have in the country. Two issues have been raised with me by constituents regarding the removal of code 78, which restricts a licence holder from operating a manual vehicle if he or she demonstrated proficiency in an automatic vehicle. An arbitrary line has been drawn whereby anyone who qualified to drive before November 2013 has to have that restriction on their licence. I ask that this be reviewed.  The second issue relates to category BE, which permits people to tow a trailer while driving a jeep or car. In order to attain a category BE on your licence to drive a trailer attached to your jeep, you have to have spent two years under the mentorship of a qualified BE driver. There is a very limited pool of people who have that qualification and who can mentor others. Will the Minister support a review of these two requirements and apply a common-sense solution in respect of both, while also ensuring that road safety is maintained? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  I thank Deputy Moynihan for raising this important issue. I will raise it with the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, and the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, regarding the particular interpretation taken by the Road Safety Authority in respect of licence renewals.  I am not familiar with the technical aspects the Deputy referenced. The Minister and Minister of State will need to evaluate the matter in line with what he said. I will ask them to respond to him directly. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Neville","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Joe-Neville.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Joe Neville  The issue I want to raise is dereliction and, more importantly, how we can rejuvenate our towns and villages. Coincidentally, in recent days I was contacted by representatives from two different towns in north Kildare who were looking to meet up to discuss what we could do. A huge number of people, such as those involved in Tidy Towns, are doing great work in trying to revitalise our town centres. However, their efforts are being held back by issues relating to derelict properties. We need to check what powers are in place for local authorities. We may need to move those powers to Revenue in order to enable it to get those properties. Ultimately, many of our towns have growing communities, growing populations and growing needs. We need more childcare facilities and new family resource centres. If our towns and villages are going to be emptier, we need to put in place facilities in these properties. Some of that could be done by way of Government-led projects. We have a dereliction tax. There is talk about setting the rate at 7%. Can we look at putting it at 10% in order to really incentivise business owners to get things moving? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  The Deputy is correct. There are too many derelict properties in towns and villages across the country. We need to use all levers of Government to incentivise their use for community infrastructure or for enterprise. The Minister, Deputy Browne, has brought in a series of grants to help bridge the gap for different communities and for people interested in investing and turning properties around. The T\u00e1naiste and the former Minister, Paschal Donohoe, have done work on moving this tax to Revenue, which will have a significant effect.  I will reflect on the position the Deputy set out in respect of a higher rate of tax and whether that would be a better stick as regards the utilisation of properties. We need to see properties that have been derelict for decades moving back into use. We need the right mix of incentives and the stick, that is, taxation. We are all trying to move towards that. I appreciate the Deputy raising the issue. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Edward Timmins  As the Minister will know, we will take in approximately \u20ac17.5 billion in windfall corporation taxes this year. Our budget surplus of \u20ac8 billion looks great but without these windfall corporation taxes, our finances would be in deficit to the tune of \u20ac8 billion or \u20ac9 billion, which is concerning. It is moving in the wrong direction. I know the Minister is aware of this. Would he consider doing something like what is done in Norway, namely ring-fencing these windfall corporation taxes, or a large proportion of them, and not allowing them to be used for current expenditure? Only what is earned from the fund in which they are held would be used for current expenditure. This would be a way of being fiscally prudent and planning for our future. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  The Deputy and I have engaged at meetings of Oireachtas committees on following through on that and moderating the growth rate of current expenditure from 9%, the average over the past five years, to 6%, the rate we have set in the medium-term fiscal and structural plan. Part of driving that involves ensuring we are much more effective in driving efficiencies in the existing base spend, achieving much better value for money for taxpayers and continuing to commit to the two structural funds we have established, namely the Future Ireland Fund and the Infrastructure, Climate and Nature Fund, which have been welcomed by international markets. We are due to have \u20ac25 billion set aside by the end of this year. That will grow to a figure in excess of \u20ac30 billion next year. That provides a strong anchor of fiscal discipline whereby, by means of legislation, we are putting a lot of the windfall receipts aside. On the Deputy's point as to whether we should put even more aside if there are further windfall receipts, what anchors us in moderating day-to-day expenditure, which we are committing to, is our medium-term structural and fiscal plan. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy George Lawlor  I want to speak about the ongoing crisis in GP services across the country. I refer to access to GP services for both private patients and medical card holders. In my town of Wexford, it is virtually impossible for medical card holders to access a GP. It is heading in the same direction for private patients. Only last week, I was contacted by a family of two adults and three children who had relocated to Wexford. They are private patients and they were rejected by four GPs. We are now looking to other towns in the county to try to get them facilitated. As the Minister will know, this is an ongoing crisis. The Minister for Health has given commitments in the past but the problem is getting worse. We really do need radical intervention in this area. I have spoken to my colleagues and I know that towns across the country are suffering greatly in this regard. I would appreciate some type of intervention. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  I regret that this has been the direct experience of many people in Wexford. The most appropriate structural intervention to improve provision of GP services across our State has been what we have done on the graduate side of things. The number of postgraduate places for general practice has massively expanded in the past number of years. That pipeline of graduates is now coming through the system. We should see the benefit of that in different communities. The HSE has also worked to address some of the deficits in particular areas of population growth. I will ask the Minister for Health to respond to the particular acute issue in Wexford to which the Deputy refers. This will improve as that pipeline of graduates is seen throughout the country. We are already seeing many of them conclude their general practice training. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  There are three Deputies outside the timeline. I ask them to be brief. I will give them 30 seconds with a further 30 seconds for a response. It is a 15-Member slot. The Members chosen have been taken. I am doing this at my own discretion. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Murphy.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Michael-Murphy.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Murphy  Back in March, I wrote to the Ministers for agriculture, justice and Transport on the issue of sulky racing and general sulky use. It is extraordinary to think that sulky racing is permitted under the Roads Act 1993. This issue crosses all three Departments. I ask that the working group look at welfare, enforcement, legislative reform, minimum ages, and a licensing and regulatory framework. It is extraordinary that the racing of sulkies is permitted. Is there any update from the working group? Does the Minister support an outright ban? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Heydon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Heydon.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Martin-Heydon.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine (Deputy Martin Heydon)  I thank Deputy Murphy for raising this matter, for his ongoing work as chair of the Oireachtas Committee on Transport and for his personal interest in the issue of sulky racing, which he has been raising for some time. As Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, I am responsible for animal welfare. The question of who is permitted to operate on roads is a matter for the Department of Transport and enforcement in respect of any breaches of the rules is a matter for the Department of justice. I wrote to my colleagues in those Departments to ask them to nominate people for a working group. That working group has held an initial meeting. I understand that more meetings are planned for the future. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Duncan Smith","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Duncan-Smith.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Duncan-Smith.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Duncan Smith  The Minister may have read in the Irish Independent this week that the remains of a body found in Galway in 1995 went missing from a HSE mortuary. There are 51 sets of unidentified remains on the Government database. In three of those cases, the remains or parts of the remains have gone missing. These include a skull found in north County Dublin in 2006 and partial remains found in Wexford in 1995. It is hoped that modern technology will allow these remains to be matched with missing people, allowing them to be identified. However, through carelessness, neglect or poor processes, this has not happened. I ask for a proper audit and for solid processes to be put in place in order that these unidentified remains can be cared for and comfort can be given to families in these tragic cases. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  I did not see the specific report in the Irish Independent . Following through on this is obviously a joint competence of the Departments of Health and Justice. We will ask that confidence in further co-ordination be ensured, particularly for families who have particular concerns. I will ask both Departments to respond to that issue. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Malcolm Byrne  I very much welcome the Government's intention to proceed with a youth culture card, as committed to in our manifesto and in the programme for Government. This will help to build youth audiences for the arts. I would be grateful if the Minister could outline the timeframe for the introduction of the youth culture card and when applications will open for the proposed arts capital programme. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  The Deputy may have read news reports, but such reports do not supersede discussions on the Estimates. Nothing has been agreed on any matter relating to the budget yet. We will have to consider all matters in the context of what is available for 2027. The arts capital programme was referenced in the sectoral investment plan that we published. It is also reflected in the programme for Government. I will ask the Minister, Deputy O'Donovan, to set out a timeline in that regard. A decision on what is possible for 2027 is still subject to discussions on the Estimates. I am being consistent on that in the context of budget 2027. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna ar Pholasa\u00ed n\u00f3 ar Reachta\u00edocht - Questions on Policy or Legislation"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-23\/debate\/dbsect_14","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Withdrawal of the State from the Migration and Asylum Pact of the European Union Bill 2026: First Stage","counts":{"speechCount":9,"speakerCount":4},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_14","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn  I move:  That leave be granted to introduce a Bill entitled an Act to provide for the withdrawal of the State from European Union legislative measures comprised in the Migration and Asylum Pact of the European Union; and to provide for related matters.  Six years ago, we in Aont\u00fa, called for a proper debate on the issue of immigration. We were the first party to do so in this House. We said very clearly that if there is not a debate that the issue will not go away. It will be pushed underground. It will be used by ne'er-do-wells to cause trouble in the country. We were attacked at that time by pretty much every single political party. Now, most of the parties have moved onto the same ground as ourselves but there are still major differences. The EU migration pact is one of them. The EU migration pact hands over Irish sovereignty on a key issue to the EU. The EU will determine in future the numbers of people who will come to Ireland, the number people we must accept through the asylum process, and it allows Brussels to determine the money that we must pay in lieu of accepting those same applicants. Already the Government is putting away \u20ac9 million for fines that it expects next year as a result of that pact.  We have received legal advice from the Office of Parliamentary Legal Advisors and the European Commission that it may not be possible to withdraw from the opt-in. However, we have also received different legal opinions. We know that if there are future changes to the EU migration pact and how it is run we still a constitutional right to opt-out. We also know that countries like Poland, for example, have been given exemptions in relation to that pact. The reason that this Bill is being proposed by ourselves today on the floor of the D\u00e1il is that we want to challenge and test the full limits of what this country has a right to do. Poland receives an exemption from the pacts because it has accepted 1 million Ukrainian people. Ireland currently has 1.2 million immigrants living in the State. A total of 23% of the population are from outside of the country. Ireland is an outlier in those terms.  No other major European country has figures next nor near that. The only countries that come close are microstates where they have small populations and where small numbers can change the proportion significantly. Many of these people are living integrated and cohesively in this country. Many are working positively and putting their shoulder to the wheel. However, it is also putting significant pressure on the housing crisis. It is a foundation of economics. The supply and demand determine the price and availability. The Government has not been able to supply housing over the past number of years. By increasing the number of people coming into the country, we are pushing up prices currently. Incredibly, 42% of people on the Dublin housing waiting list are foreign born. That is making it harder for them and also for locals to be able to get a house. I urge the Government to accept this Bill. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Lawless  It is an honour to introduce this Bill before the House to remove Ireland from the EU migration pact to restore Irish sovereignty over its borders. The decision to opt into the EU migration pact by this Government or the previous Government was reckless. The idea that the Government is unable to determine the future cost in terms of fines is incredible. Ireland has unique challenges in sharing a border with a non-EU country. It is extraordinary that this has never been addressed in relation to this pact. When the EU migration pact passed in the D\u00e1il, it did so by a narrow majority. By my calculation, 59 of the TDs who voted that day are no longer TDs. They either retired or lost their seats. Newly elected TDs like myself have never had the opportunity to have our say in relation to the EU migration pact. The Irish people have never had a say either. We are the ones who are mandated by the sovereign people of Ireland. The previous Government seeded sovereignty in relation to our borders even though the Government is unable to tell us through parliamentary questions how much it will cost us in terms of fines. That is why we in Aont\u00fa are tabling this Bill to try to reverse that decision and return decisions over migration and our borders to the democratically elected D\u00e1il.  As Deputy T\u00f3ib\u00edn mentioned, Poland was given exemptions in relation to the migration pact. Those exemptions were necessary because of the extreme pressures that Poland was and is experiencing in relation to Ukrainian refugees. However, Ireland is experiencing very acute challenges as well, such as the fact that 23% of the population of this country are foreign born, that we have such an immense housing crisis and that the services in terms of education and health are at capacity. These are factors that should be accounted for. I refer the EU migration pact----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Thank you, Deputy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Lawless  -----and the primary criteria in terms of GDP, which is incredibly------ "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  The Deputy's time is up. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Lawless  -----inflated in this country. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Is the Bill being opposed? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Deputy Mary Butler)  Not opposed. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn  I move: \"That the Bill be taken in Private Members' time.\" "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Withdrawal of the State from the Migration and Asylum Pact of the European Union Bill 2026: First Stage"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-23\/debate\/dbsect_15","debateType":"debate","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2021\/150","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2021\/150\/dail\/3_ord","houseCode":"dail","stage":"3_ord","isBillStage":false,"showAs":"Seller\u2019s Legal Pack for Property Buyers Bill 2021: Order for Committee Stage (D\u00e1il)"}},"showAs":"Seller\u2019s Legal Pack for Property Buyers Bill 2021: Order for Committee Stage","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_15","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Heneghan  I move:  That the Bill be referred to the Select Committee on Justice, Home Affairs and Migration pursuant to Standing Order 187. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Cuireadh an D\u00e1il ar fionra\u00ed ar 1.26 p.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 2.27 p.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Sitting suspended at 1.26 p.m. and resumed at 2.27 p.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Seller\u2019s Legal Pack for Property Buyers Bill 2021: Order for Committee Stage"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-23\/debate\/dbsect_16","debateType":"debate","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/88","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/88\/dail\/2","houseCode":"dail","stage":"2","isBillStage":true,"showAs":"Disability (Amendment) Bill 2026: Second Stage (D\u00e1il)"}},"showAs":"Disability (Amendment) Bill 2026: Second Stage","counts":{"speechCount":41,"speakerCount":39},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_16","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Norma Foley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Norma-Foley.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Norma-Foley.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maurice Quinlivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Cullinane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Liam Quaide","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jen Cummins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Cahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cormac Devlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cormac-Devlin.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cormac-Devlin.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Stanley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Ward.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Barry-Ward.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Nicholas Gogarty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Albert Dolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Claire Kerrane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gillian Toole","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gillian-Toole.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Gillian-Toole.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Carol Nolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Norma Foley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Norma-Foley.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Norma-Foley.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Children, Disability and Equality (Deputy Norma Foley)  I move: \"That the Bill be now read a Second Time.\"  As Minister for Children, Disability and Equality, I am pleased to introduce to the House today the Disability (Amendment) Bill 2026. This Bill is the first legislative reform of the assessment of need process since it was established in the Disability Act 2005, over 20 years ago. This Bill is an acknowledgement by Government that the current assessment of need process has to become a source of deep frustration for applicants, both children and young adults, and indeed for their families. The Government is particularly mindful that long waiting times for assessment of need are causing uncertainty and distress to families who may already be under considerable pressure as they try to ensure their family member receives the supports and services they need in order to fully develop and thrive.  In my statement today I will set out section by section the proposed changes being introduced by this Bill and how these legislative reforms aim to improve the efficiency and effectiveness of the assessment of need system. Section 1 of the Disability (Amendment) Bill 2026 defines the Disability Act 2005 as the principal Act. The Bill which comprises a total of eight sections only makes very specific and targeted changes to Part 2 of the Disability Act which describes and sets out the legislative basis for the assessment of need process.  Section 2 of the Bill makes specific and targeted changes section 7 of the principal Act which sets out interpretations of terms used within Part 2. In particular, the Bill strengthens the definition of \"assessment\" in section 7(1) to clearly identify the determination of disability as a distinct part of the assessment process. It seeks to make explicit what was previously implicit in the principal Act, notably the requirement for HSE assessment officers to make the determination of disability before identifying the health and education needed the applicant.  Additionally, section 2 amends the definition of substantial restriction in section 7(2) of the principal Act. Specifically, the Bill replaces the word \"disability\" with the word \"restriction\", placing greater emphasis on the need of the individual arising from the restrictions they face in daily life. It brings the legislation more in line with the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, focusing on the person's needs rather than their disability.  Section 3 of the Bill makes amendments to section 8 of the principal Act. The Bill clarifies that a request by a HSE assessment officer to the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, for assistance in relation to the need for an education service as part of the overall assessment process, should be made once a determination of disability has been established. Section 3 also clarifies that the assessment report prepared and issued by the HSE assessment officer will include a statement on the substantial restriction that the applicant is subject to. This new provision replaces a requirement for an assessment report to include \"a statement of the nature and extent of the [person\u2019s] disability\", moving away from a focus on diagnosis. This will help to ensure the focus is on the restrictions experienced by the person and their needs arising from those restrictions, rather than on a specific impairment or diagnosis.  Section 4 inserts an entirely new set of provisions to section 9 of the principal Act. These new provisions provide for the withdrawal, closure and reinstatement, where required, of applications for an assessment of need, AON. These provisions address a gap in the existing legislation, which does not provide for the closure of applications. They also aim to provide a degree of flexibility to applicants and their families who may not wish to continue with their application due to personal circumstances or may not be in a position to engage with the process at that point in time. This should also provide for improved case management by the HSE, allowing for the closure of dormant or inactive applications currently in the system. As I will explain, substantial protections will also be in place at all times for every applicant so that this provision operates in everyone\u2019s best interest.  The Disability (Amendment) Bill provides for two types of withdrawal. The first is a voluntary withdrawal mechanism whereby the applicant voluntarily chooses to withdraw their application from the assessment of need process. The applicant can withdraw their application at any stage throughout the assessment process up to the point at which a service statement is issued and the applicant must inform the HSE in writing of their intent to withdraw. The voluntary withdrawal will take effect on the date at which the HSE receives this notice from the applicant.  The second type of withdrawal mechanism is termed a \"deemed withdrawal\" and will only occur when it is no longer possible to progress the assessment process. Regulations, which are at an advanced stage of development, will set out very clearly the conditions under which the HSE can act upon a deemed withdrawal. These will include, for example, where the applicant is deceased, has permanently moved outside the jurisdiction or fails to provide the necessary information over a six-month period despite repeated efforts by the assessment officer to progress the assessment process. The deemed withdrawal would take effect on the date at which the HSE notified the applicant.  Importantly, the Bill also has regard to the potential vulnerability of families and provides that there is an option to reinstate applications to the AON process for both voluntary and deemed withdrawals, even in those cases where attempts to elicit information over a six-month period have failed. In each withdrawal case, a request for reinstatement can be made by the applicant within 12 months of the date of withdrawal. This allows applicants who may have disengaged from the process for personal reasons to re-engage and have their original applications assessed. The Bill sets out how applications will be treated once they have been reinstated, especially in relation to steps that had already been taken to process the application at the time of withdrawal.  In all, these new provisions for withdrawal, closure and reinstatement will apply to both existing and new applications to the assessment of need process and will ensure greater flexibility in how applications are managed across the system.  Section 5 of the Bill makes changes to section 21 of the principal Act. Section 5 provides the Minister for Children, Disability, and Equality with regulation-making powers in relation to the provision for the withdrawal, closure and reinstatement of applications to the assessment of need process. The regulations, which are in development, specify the conditions under which withdrawals, closures and reinstatements can take place, enhancing protections for applicants to ensure that this provision is grounded in legislation and does not exceed the limits of the principal Act. Section 5 also makes an amendment to section 21( a )(v) of the principal Act around requests for assistance from the NCSE. This is to reflect the changes made to section 3 of the Bill whereby a request to the NCSE for assistance should be made once a determination of disability has been established  Section 6 provides the Minister for Children, Disability, and Equality with the powers to request the HSE to develop a set of statutory guidelines setting out the assessment of need process. It is intended that the statutory guidelines will support HSE assessment officers and liaison officers to deliver a consistent and uniform approach to the processing of assessment applications across all six health regions, promoting greater fairness and transparency. The guidelines also ensure that the overall assessment process is grounded in legislation and does not exceed legislative parameters. The guidelines, which are currently at an advanced stage of development, are procedural in nature. They will cover all aspects of the assessment process from an administrative perspective. This includes the initial processing of new applications right through to how the withdrawal and reinstatement of applications should be conducted by assessment officers. Over time, it is expected that a standardised process for the delivery of assessments of need will make the system more efficient and effective, helping to reduce processing times. The guidelines will also provide greater clarity about the assessment of need process for applicants and their families so that they can better understand what happens when they make an application.  Section 7 provides for the transitional arrangements to address the changes introduced in the Bill and how they will apply to new and existing applications. Applications received by the HSE on or after the date at which the new Act commences will be processed under the new legislation. Applications received by the HSE before the date of commencement of the new Act, where no steps have yet been taken to carry out the assessment, will also be processed under the new legislation. Meanwhile, applications on hand with the HSE on the date of commencement of the new Act, where steps have been taken by the HSE before that date, will be processed in line with the existing legislation set out in Part 2 of the principal Act. This means that the HSE will be required to administer two systems for the processing of assessments of need until such time as all applications received prior to the commencement of the new Act are completed. These two systems will be similar in many aspects, other than those set out in the Bill. However, as I mentioned previously, an exception to the transitional provisions will be the provisions for the withdrawal, closure and reinstatement of applications. These provisions will apply to all new and existing assessment of need applications, giving all applicants the right to withdraw, close and reinstate their applications as per the new Act and regulations.  Section 8 of the Bill is the Short Title and addresses commencement.  I recognise that many families turn towards an assessment of need at a vulnerable time in a child or young adult\u2019s life, as they seek to identify their needs and the services that may be available to meet those needs. However, I must emphasise that an assessment of need is not required to access services and I highlight that a person seeking services, whether for themselves or their child, can apply directly to the HSE for those services without an AON. Nevertheless, the statutory right to an assessment of need as set out in the Disability Act 2005 remains absolutely unchanged. The legislation I have presented today showcases the Government\u2019s commitment to improving the assessment of need experience for those who seek an assessment of need. Of course, legislative reform should only be one aspect of our focus, and I am committed as Minister to working with my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Higgins, and across Government on improving access to services for some of our most vulnerable children.  I commend the Bill to the House. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  On some level, this is a technical Bill, but because it deals with assessment of need, the Minister will understand that there is a huge level of trepidation and worry out there about the delivery of a service that has seen abject failure over many years.  We know that the reason this is being tackled is because, at last count at the end of June, we had 23,282 children on the waiting list for an assessment of need. That was 1,286 in Louth. That is a phenomenal amount of families. We all know that even those who have got an assessment of need do not necessarily get the service plan in the time required, nor do they receive the therapies and supports, which is the biggest issue that remains for families. I would like to think when we are introducing legislation on assessment of need that there would be some glimpse of light in terms of how we are going to deliver.  Regarding this legislation, there are a number of questions. When the Minister refers to withdrawal from the list, we would all like to know what the interaction is going to be. We understand removing someone because they are deceased or are outside the State and enough interaction has been had with them to ensure that that is definite.  However, where further information is being looked for over the six-month period, we would like clarity about the interaction. Too many times as constituency TDs, we have seen families where there is an element of chaos, even dysfunction, and other things happening in life, meaning they have missed appointments and are then dropped off some of these services. We need to make sure that we are not allowing for something like that. I would request that.  We need to know about the statutory guidelines and when we will see them, and ensure there is a consistent, streamlined approach. We all want to see that. The consistent approach would be the best approach. We have all spoken before about the entire process, from assessment to therapies, that we would like to see streamlined. I request that that information come as soon as possible. I know Deputy Quinlivan as Chair of the disability committee has requested a briefing and I believe it is to happen next Tuesday. It is vital that we have that level of information.  I get fed up at this stage having a conversation about the size of the AON list. Particularly when dealing with constituents and families who are going through absolute anguish at times and do not necessarily have a child who is having difficulties in school but cannot get the very obvious therapies that he or she needs, all I want is for there to be somebody to talk to about this entire process. I heard Mr. Bernard Gloster say that before.  This is being done alongside the idea of the autism intervention protocol and assessment service. I accept what the Minister says, in that there is no removal of the six-month right, because that is one of the few rights that people have and they do not want to let it go. There should be an assessment of need within six months. I do not think anyone would have an issue if someone who was deemed to need an autism assessment would have that, as long as we are talking about something that improves the service that they are going to get and that he or she actually gets the therapies that are required. Unfortunately, across all of this, we do not see anything about an increase in the number of occupational therapists, speech and language therapists, psychologists and physiotherapists, who are absolutely necessary.  In-reach teams are to be filled at this point in time. When will we see that service up and running? I have always thought it would be incredibly difficult to see delivery on the numbers that are missing from primary care and children's disability network teams, CDNTs, while also trying to fill this third stratum to deal with the autism assessments. I would like to make sure that we have whatever detail is needed for this legislation. We will need further detail about what can be provided. In conversations like this, I often think of my own son, Toirleach, who is autistic. I think of the over and back that my wife would have had. He was in with the early intervention team, which later became the CDNT. He was in primary care, then back into the CDNT. I have said before that St. Joseph's National School and \u00d3 Fiaich College have been his saviours.  I will always believe in in-school therapies. I would like for us to have a more fundamental conversation about the Disability Act. We were talking to those occupational therapists, speech and language therapists, physiotherapists and psychologists about how to deliver a system and a service that worked. There are an awful lot of questions to answer, but at the minute, we are talking about breaking the law and failure to deliver. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maurice Quinlivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Maurice-Quinlivan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Maurice Quinlivan  For years, disabled children and their families have been failed by successive Governments. They have been promised rights, supports and services, but too often those promises have not been delivered. Families have been left waiting for assessments, therapies, school supports and basic services. They have been forced to fight the State for what should already be available to them as a matter of law and dignity. This is not a new failure. Governments have published strategies, made announcements and offered warm words, but families cannot raise their children on warm words. While Governments make announcements, children are waiting. While Ministers make promises, parents are fighting for assessments.  While the State is legally required to provide an assessment of need within six months, the HSE said earlier this year that 21,782 children were overdue for an assessment, and there are more than that on the list itself. Behind every number is a child waiting for answers, a parent trying to understand what their child needs, and a family trying to access therapies and educational supports. These are not statistics. These are children and families who have been failed by the State. I have rightly highlighted this failure before, including the fact that the children in Limerick are waiting beyond the statutory timeline. The Government has been in daily breach of its own laws. This is the reality we are dealing with. Families cannot wait years for an assessment that the law says should be completed within six months. We all agree that the assessment of need process needs to reform, but reform must not mean reducing the right. It must mean making that right real, enforceable and deliverable.  The Disability Act 2005, read together with the 2007 regulations, provides a framework in which an assessment must commence within three months and must be completed within a further three months, subject to limited exceptional circumstances. The six-month timeframe must be protected. If the Government tells us the proposed legislation does not remove the six-month statutory timeframe, which I think the Minister is saying, I welcome that commitment. We need an ironclad commitment and we need to have protection made absolutely clear in legislation. Six months must remain six months or sooner. We should be working to complete assessments within six months or sooner. The timeframe must not be an aspiration but an enforceable legal obligation. It must not be restarted because an assessment moves from one stage to another. It must not be extended indefinitely because the State has failed to provide the staff and expertise needed to deliver the service.  The proposed legislation introduces a significant change in the structures of the assessment of needs process. The existing framework is intended to provide a comprehensive assessment of the nature and extent of a child's disability, the child's health and educational needs, the service required and the timeframe in which these services should ideally be provided. Under the proposed legislation, greater emphasis is placed on an initial determination of whether a person has a disability before the assessment process of his or her detailed health and educational needs. That is a significant change. We must streamline the process without narrowing the entitlement. We must make the system work better without making the rights smaller.  That brings me to the role of the assessment officer. Under the proposed reforms, an assessment officer may determine whether a child has a disability before the full consideration of his or her health and educational needs proceeds. This is a significant responsibility to give to somebody, so we need to ask what qualifications, expertise, experience and skills the person must have before he or she can make the determination. The regulation requires appropriate qualifications, knowledge, competence and training, but the legislation does not clearly prescribe the professional qualifications and competencies required of an assessment officer. That needs to change. An assessment officer should be properly qualified, properly trained, experienced in disability matters, competent in applying the legislation and capable of a co-ordinated and genuinely multidisciplinary assessment. Assessment officers should not replace clinical, psychological, educational or therapeutic professionals. The role should be clearly defined in law to co-ordinate the process, gather and evaluate the relevant evidence, ensure the statutory requirements are met, and make decisions within the limits of their training, expertise, and legal authority.  Where specialist evidence is required, the officer must have timely access to the appropriate professionals. This is particularly important when an officer is considering a \"no disability\" determination. That decision must be based on sufficient evidence, properly recorded reasons and appropriate professional support. The child and his or her parents must understand how the decision was reached and be clearly informed of the review and appeal rights. This is not about creating another bureaucratic hurdle. It is about getting the decisions right, and the concern is not theoretical. The HSE has warned that the proposed sequencing of the process could create delays in obtaining educational reports and completing the assessment of need within six months. That is a serious concern.  If the new legislation requires a disability determination before the education component can proceed, the Government must ensure that this additional stage does not stop or reset the clock or delay access to the full assessment. The six-month period must run from the date when the valid application is received. It must not begin when the assessment moves from the disability determination stage to the health or educational needs stage. If the State has failed to meet its legal obligations, the answer cannot be to change the rules for the family who have already been waiting. We need both things at the same time: a properly qualified assessment officer and a genuinely multidisciplinary assessment process. We should not streamline the system by removing expertise from it. We should streamline it by ensuring the right expertise is there.  For too long, disabled children and their families have been asked to wait for an assessment, therapy, school supports and the Government to act. Families have waited enough. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Louise O'Reilly  I could not agree more with an Teachta Quinlivan. Families are sick of waiting, and they have waited long enough.  I will say to the Minister what I always say when we have a debate like this, that being, persons with disabilities are not disabled or restricted by their own bodies or intellectual capacity. Rather, they are disabled, or restricted, if you will, by an ableist world full of hostile architecture. They are restricted by systems designed to exclude them and they are gravely and seriously disabled by a Government that refuses to listen to them.  It is very welcome that we have the chance to discuss the AON. However, this Bill will not provide for one single solitary speech and language therapist, occupational therapist or special education place more. Without those services, all the chat in this House is not going to make any difference to people's lived reality.  I was looking back through my emails. A woman whom I have met contacted my office recently looking for assistance with an urgent issue affecting her youngest son and her family. She was at pains to point out that when these delays happened, it was catastrophic for the child. Of course it is. That has a knock-on impact on every single person in the family. Effectively, they all wait and they are all locked out. Her youngest child is now facing significant delays and barriers in accessing support at a critical stage of his development. In late 2024, this child was referred by the area medical officer to several services, including a neurodevelopmental clinic. The mother was asked to complete the assessment of need forms and return them to the doctor so that he could add the notes and submit the application. She did this. She delivered them in an addressed envelope to the reception at the doctor's office. Assuming the application had been submitted, the child's mam waited the statutory six months before contacting the assessment of need office to inquire on the progress.  After several weeks of follow-up and being informed that the systems were down, the mam was eventually told that no record of his application could be found. She contacted the area medical office in May 2025. During that phone call, she was informed that there was no AON application on file. She was told not to submit another form because the doctor had no supporting notes, that no supporting notes would be provided and that the office would not support any request to backdate to 2024. She wrote to me to say that her youngest child's needs had continued to escalate significantly. He presents with severe impulsivity, a complete lack of safety awareness, physical aggression and significant behavioural challenges. Unfortunately, because his assessment of need form was never submitted, they are back at the beginning of the process. It fell to me to tell her that her son would now join a list that had 23,282 children on it. This is further compounded by the fact that she now has to start applying for schools, but she has no assessment of need.  This mother has done everything right. She has given up work in order to be able to attend to the needs of her child because the State is not stepping in. Her child is being treated less favourably than other children, but his mam is doing her very best. Access to services that do not exist and being left lying on waiting lists and forgotten about are not good enough. I would not want it for one of my children. I do not think anybody would. It is not fair. In the coming weeks, we will hear the Minister's colleagues talking in the House about the budget and giving themselves a pat on the back for how well they are doing. The Minister should judge it by how long kids are waiting. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Cullinane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy David Cullinane  The most important issue here is the rights of children with disabilities. Any objective review of this Government and, in fact, previous Governments over a long number of years would show a poor record. In many areas, it would show a disgraceful record. In 2005, the Government at the time - the Minister's party was in government - put in place an Act that provided rights for children with disabilities, including the right to an assessment of need. Every year since, the Government has utterly failed. What we have seen is children waiting far too long for an assessment. In many cases, they are not getting it. Worse than that, however, is that parents have had to go to court daily to demand that the State implement what it is legally obliged to do. Hundreds of cases - thousands over the years - have happened.  The Government then tried to pull a fast one. It brought in a new standard operating procedure. It tried to pawn off what was not an assessment of need as an assessment of need. Parents brought the Government to court. The High Court agreed with the parents that it was not an assessment of need. It was set aside. Since then, the waiting list has increased massively. In fact, it has multiplied by a factor of six, seven or more. We have far too many children waiting for an assessment.  Children cannot get access to services. What is really appalling and upsetting for parents, who have to battle for services, is that the assessment does not come and they are told they do not need an assessment to access services, as if the services are there. They then try to access services, sign up with a CDNT, and are put on a waiting list for an assessment or a service to be given to their child.  I raised last week in this House an issue in relation to the Waterford south city children's disability network team because I had met a group of parents. I have done far too many of these meetings, where, unfortunately, the same pattern or story is being told of parents stressed and unable to access the services and children not getting the developmental supports that they need. They were telling me that there was no point of contact for over a year for parents in relation to the CDNT. There was no nurse. Even trying to get incontinence pads for children who needed them was an impossibility. There was only one occupational therapist and no psychologist. As a result, children were left without supports. Children need multidisciplinary supports, including occupational therapy, speech and language, and psychology. It is all part of the team that is required, yet across many of these CDNTs, we do not have the staff.  We can bring in legislation and tinker with the system, but the issue is capacity. The only thing that will resolve this issue for parents and children is if we have the staff and capacity to ensure, on the one hand, that children get timely access to an assessment and, on the other hand, they actually get the services they need.  In the context of the Bill, there needs to be a discussion about the role of the assessment officers. I know this was dealt with during pre-legislative scrutiny at the relevant committee. It is something that needs to be teased out further on Committee Stage. I know a number of concerns have been raised. No impediment can be put in the way. There can be no three-card trick employed by the Government to in any way deny a child access to an assessment of need. It was enshrined in law. Children are legally entitled to this assessment. They are also entitled, I would argue as a matter of right, to appropriate services. For far too many children, they are not getting it. There are many missed opportunities for those children. If we are going to have a fresh start, that fresh start has to be about capacity and making sure that children have better access. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Liam Quaide","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Liam Quaide  The central problem with this legislation is that it changes the assessment of need process without addressing the issue at play here, namely, the chronic under-resourcing of our services, compounded by the recruitment embargo in 2023, followed by the pay and numbers strategy, which was another form of recruitment restriction. We can change the eligibility for an assessment of need and we can change procedures or produce new guidelines, but if a child who does not proceed through the full statutory assessment of need process is then directed toward primary care, child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS, or a CDNT that cannot see them for months or years, we have not solved the problem. We have simply moved that family into another form of purgatory. That is not simply my assessment. The report of the disability matters committee from the pre-legislative scrutiny process stated very clearly: \"Across virtually every submission and hearing, the strongest operational theme was that delay and dysfunction in the AON system are inseparable from workforce service-capacity problems.\" That is the kernel of the issue.  The Psychological Society of Ireland said that legislative reform alone could not resolve these delays without investment in staffing and retention across primary care, CAMHS and disability services. We heard the same critical message from professional bodies, disability organisations and service providers that the AON crisis cannot be separated from chronic workforce shortages and inadequate service capacity. They are different organisations with different professional perspectives, but they had essentially the same message, namely, you cannot legislate your way out of a capacity crisis.  That is why our committee recommended that implementation of this legislation would have to be accompanied by a funded workforce and service-capacity plan, including multidisciplinary staffing, so that legislative reform is actually matched by operational capacity. Yet the Government is determined not to look at the elephant in the room. Where is that plan? By that plan I mean a credible, funded, multi-annual plan setting out the staffing that primary care, CDNTs and CAMHS actually require; what number of whole-time-equivalents are currently in post; where the shortfalls are; and when those posts will be filled.  The Government repeatedly makes the point that a child does not need an assessment of need in order to access health services. Formally, that is the case as a child can be referred directly to those services but there is an enormous difference between having a pathway by which somebody can be referred to a service and actually being able to get assessed and receive an intervention from that service within a reasonable period.  I have expended an extraordinary amount of effort over the past year trying to establish the true extent of waiting lists in primary care services for young people. Frankly, it should not have required the volume of parliamentary questions or hounding of the HSE that it did. I had to repeatedly ask not simply for broad waiting time categories of over 52 weeks, which is what the HSE kept giving me, but for the longest actual waits, and the numbers of people waiting more than two years, three years, four years, etc., because broad national figures can completely obscure the experience of the children at the far end of these waiting lists. What eventually emerged was jaw-dropping. In July of last year, a child on a primary care psychology list had been waiting 13.5 years. In June of this year, almost a year on, the longest wait for psychology was still over ten years. Also, this year, a child waiting for an occupational therapy assessment had been waiting 509 weeks - almost ten years. The longest physiotherapy assessment wait was 346 weeks - more than six and a half years. These are for very short blocks of intervention. This is not wrap-around supports over the long term.  Given that primary care is supposed to provide early intervention, these waits would be farcical if they were not so consequential for the young people left waiting. Therefore, when we say to families, \"You do not need an assessment of need to access services,\" we need to ask a much more important question: when will their child actually get the service? That is one of the reasons families pursue an assessment of need in the first place. For many, it is not simply because they have some particular attachment to a statutory assessment process; it is about pursuing the only part of a fragmented system where there is a clearly defined legal entitlement.  That reality came through repeatedly during our committee meetings and it is against that background that we have to look at what this Bill is changing. The legislation makes clear that an assessment officer will first determine whether the applicant meets the statutory definition of disability. Where the determination is that they do not, they do not proceed to the subsequent part of the process assessing the health and education needs arising from a disability. That is a hugely consequential decision and my particular concern is about the child on the other side of a \"no disability\" determination. That child may still have very significant needs. Where do they go? Who has clinical responsibility for working with the family? How quickly are they going to be seen? Who makes sure that they have not simply disappeared from the statutory AON process into another queue that could last years? Our committee specifically recommended that the Government publish data not simply on AON waiting times but on no-disability outcomes, closure decisions, reviews and the impact of implementation. We need to know what happens to these children afterwards.  There is then the very significant question of who makes that initial disability determination. Some assessment officers have clinical backgrounds and considerable relevant experience but the Bill does not require an assessment officer to have relevant clinical qualifications or clinical experience before making this determination. This issue was examined in detail by our committee. Department officials told us that the assessment officer role is currently an administrative role, that the work at this stage is typically desk-based and that assessment officers are not operating in a clinical capacity, yet they are making clinical decisions. A survey of 22 assessment officers found that 59% had a clinical background. That also means that a substantial minority do not. This was not just an Opposition concern. A Fine Gael Deputy, Miche\u00e1l Carrigy, questioned how somebody without a clinical background could make such a significant early determination before a clinical assessment had taken place. His Fine Gael colleague Deputy Keira Keogh rightly asked the very basic question of whether there would actually be eyes on the child before a decision was made not to proceed further. This is why the committee recommended minimum qualification, competence and experience requirements for assessment officers, including relevant clinical qualifications. It said that where an assessment officer is making a determination that someone does not meet the statutory threshold for disability, that should either be underpinned by relevant clinical qualifications or be subject to review or sign-off by an appropriately qualified clinician. That is a sensible safeguard. Why is it not provided for in the Bill?  The Government may say that clinical advice will be available and point to the development of in-reach teams but access to clinical advice is not the same thing as a requirement for clinical oversight of a decision which can stop a child proceeding through the statutory assessment process. We need to bear in mind that these assessment officers will be under enormous political pressure in an overstretched system to reduce referrals for assessment of need.  I also want to address the single point of access initiative. I fully support the principle behind it. Families should not need to understand the internal architecture of the HSE before their child can get help. They should not be passed between primary care, CDNTs and CAMHS, with one service saying the child belongs somewhere else and the next service sending them back again. A genuine no-wrong-door approach would be a significant improvement. However, the single point of access does not resolve the underlying problem which is the failure to adequately staff services. A more efficient referral pathway into a ten-year waiting list is still effectively referring a child into a phantom service. I am hearing varying reports from around the country about how single point of access is functioning in practice.  There is also a serious unresolved issue around contested cases. What happens where primary care believes a child requires CAMHS? What happens where CAMHS believes that child is more appropriately supported through a CDNT? Who adjudicates that? From what I am hearing among clinicians around the country, psychiatry is not fully signed up to how these contested cases will be resolved. This is not some peripheral concern of mine. The final report of the Committee on Disability Matters specifically identifies \"the absence of a clear and timely HSE mechanism for adjudicating on contested referrals or service-boundary disputes\". It says disputes over whether primary care, CDNTs or CAMHS should take responsibility can leave children and families without a clear service response. This has to be resolved because a single point of access is only a meaningful reform if there is also a clear point of responsibility.  These safeguards are particularly important when we are making changes to the point at which somebody can be stopped from proceeding further through the statutory process. The deeper point remains: the assessment of need crisis cannot be separated from the crisis in the services surrounding it. If primary care were properly staffed, if CDNTs had the multidisciplinary teams they require, if CAMHS and CAMHS-ID had sufficient capacity and if single point of access genuinely meant that children could no longer fall between services, then families would have far less reason to pursue an assessment of need simply to get their child assessed. If those services remain severely underinvested in, changing the statutory process risks changing where children wait rather than ending the waiting.  Therefore, I want the Minister to address four fundamental questions to bear in mind as we proceed with this Bill. Where is the funded workforce and service capacity plan recommended by the committee, particularly for primary care? Why has the committee's recommendation on clinical qualifications, experience or clinical sign-off for assessment officers not been provided for? What is the final national mechanism for adjudicating contested single point of access cases and are all of the relevant clinical disciplines fully signed up to it? What happens to the child who receives a no-disability determination? Who follows that child through the system and establishes whether they actually receive the assessment and intervention they need?  The measure of these reforms cannot simply be whether the AON waiting list becomes shorter. We need to know what happens to these children. Were they assessed? Did they receive therapy? Did they receive the right service? Most importantly, did they get that help while it could still make the greatest difference to their development and well-being? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  Before we continue with Deputy Cummins I want to welcome the Granagh Ladies Club to the Public Gallery. They are here with Richard O\u2019Donoghue. I understand it has two male members as well. They are all very welcome. I hope they enjoy their day with Richard. We will return to the debate now with Deputy Cummins. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jen Cummins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jen Cummins  I welcome the effort to streamline things for children with disabilities but I have a number of concerns. It starts from when a child is born. In my own constituency of Dublin South-Central there is a lack of public health nurses so developmental checks that take place at zero to six months, six to 12 months, one to two years and three to five years and so on are not happening in my constituency. There is not enough staffing. The challenge parents have is that they might get their zero to six month check when the child is six months.  They are often given a tick-box checklist: \"These are the things you should look out for.\" Early intervention and identification of developmental delays at that age are essential and are connected to assessments of need, AONs, because if we are not able to get an assessment of need, if a child is on a waiting list for an average of 27 months, how will they know what that is? I know this legislation is an effort to streamline things. Even when a child does get an assessment of need, where are the services? The reality is that so many children do not get the services. As education spokesperson for my party, my huge concern is the fact that the assessment of need is no longer needed for provision in a special class or a special school place.  How will the school know what the child's needs are without suitable documentation? There are concerns among education unions that they were not consulted when this announcement was made earlier in the year. How exactly will this work in practice? Deputy Quaide has spent so many months and years looking into this and identifying where the challenges are. From an education perspective, we see even today, in this House, that we have two special schools in respect of which the parents are begging us to facilitate what is needed in those schools even more. We are constantly playing catch-up for children with disabilities and adults with disabilities. I am so concerned that this system is so confusing, is so hard to navigate and is understaffed.  My other concern is that those children who did not get a public health nurse visit or an assessment of need on time - now they do not need one - are not getting this service in the CDNT or primary care and not getting an appropriate school place. What does that say to a child? They were failed by the health system and then they will be failed by the education system. We are failing them. I have massive concerns that this is a way of just getting rid of those over 20,000 children who are waiting over six months and the \u20ac23 million the State has spent to defend that delay. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  I welcome the opportunity to comment on today's Bill. I have three key points to deal with: first, fragmentation of services; then the suitability of the people making assessments; and, finally, the root causes of these issues.  First, accessing services is fragmented, difficult and plagued with delays. This Bill and this Government, instead of ensuring that children are not waiting ten years for primary care psychology or speech and language therapy, are simply moving the goalposts and creating a new system which fails to guarantee children and their families the supports they need. Pressure on the assessment of need system does not justify gatekeeping access. While it may massage the numbers, the reality is that it will leave thousands of children uncounted and unsupported.  These are not just my words and my views, and I thank the parents who told me and my office about their experiences. A mother of three children with additional needs told my colleague:  Children will not be appropriately identified, and it places teachers and parents in a very difficult situation. Is this just Government trying to cover over the extent to which they continue to fail our children?  We need to treat children with disabilities equally, as full people. They may have educational needs, health needs and social needs just like the rest of us. Our systems should move to recognise the whole person, not further silo off support and leave parents going from pillar to post, from waiting list to waiting list, all while struggling to give their children the best support they can.  My second point is that this system means that people who are not qualified to assess children are put in a position of deciding what level of support they need. This Bill does not require the assessment officers to have relevant clinical qualifications or experience, so the gatekeeper of the proposed system does not necessarily need to have any clinical expertise. Another parent in my constituency shared her experience with me, and it shows just what we risk when we do not have properly qualified people conducting assessments:  My daughter was just diagnosed Autistic last year while trying to transition to secondary school and dealing with puberty. At all parent teacher meetings at primary level we asked how she was socially as I had always had a feeling she faced additional challenges. We were mostly reassured that she was fine, even though she had very few friends. This is not to blame the school. The primary school is amazing but they just don't know what they don't know.  My final point is that we need to address the root causes of waiting lists and service delays, not treat the symptoms by trying to lessen the number of people who can access the system. Our disability services are plagued by underinvestment, huge workloads and a poor or non-existent referral system. These are not just numbers on a spreadsheet. These are real children and real families and they deserve real support, not moving goalposts. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Rory Hearne  There is extreme concern, as my colleagues have expressed, that really what is going on here is the Government trying to hide the scale of need that it is not meeting and that this is not ultimately about delivering services but about trying to take the political pressure off. It is disgraceful when we look at the waiting lists. Of course, that is the power of the waiting lists. They reveal the level of need that is there. The waiting lists that were released as a result of the great work by my colleague, Deputy Quaide, show that, for example, 3,500 children between zero and four years of age are waiting for psychology. These children are at the most important stage of their development. There are 1,000 children waiting over a year. That is the figure only for those between zero and four years of age. Of those, 464 are in my constituency.  Another area is speech and language therapy. These are children awaiting initial therapy. Let us say you get the assessment or you are passed on. How long do you wait for the actual therapy? There are 6,500 children across this country waiting for initial therapy. There are 680 waiting more than two years, and two thirds of those are in my constituency and the Dublin north area.  These waiting lists are absolutely unacceptable. There is an inequality as well in all this because we know from talking to parents that many of them are forced to pay privately to try to access the various services. What that means for those on lower incomes is that they are pushed. We saw the research from Barnardos showing that two out of every ten families literally cannot put food on the table. Part of the reason is that families are squeezed to try to pay for services the State should provide. The Government says that it is about cherishing all children equally and that Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael are about giving every child the same opportunity, while these children whose families cannot afford to pay to access services do not have the same opportunity. They are stuck on waiting lists for basic services that should give them equal chances in life but they are not getting them. We have a deeply unequal society. The Government talks about all the gains it is making and all the changes it makes, but these children whose families cannot afford to go private and who are stuck on waiting lists are being developmentally delayed and being denied basic opportunities and supports. The minimum we should have is a public primary care system that meets every child's needs regardless of the ability of the family to pay for them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Cahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Cahill  This is a very important Bill. As the Minister is aware, disability services in Kerry face huge challenges, including staffing shortages, long waiting lists for children's assessments, respite for children and a lack of adult residential and respite care. There is a huge backlog in relation to assessments of need and huge issues with services, accessing services and staffing. As the Minister is aware, the HSE and Kerry Parents and Friends Association have struggled with recruitment, which has severely impacted all services, including residential and respite care for both adults and children in our county. There are massive issues and gaping gaps for children with profound disabilities when they reach 18 years of age and transition out of child services. Parents and their families are on their knees. They are at the end of their tether and genuinely face burn-out when it comes to services, respite and residential shortages right across the county. At this stage I would say they are burnt out from fighting on behalf of their loved ones and lobbying us politicians for what should be a basic human right.  We are coming from a very low ebb when it comes to disability services. We are still in the dark ages. I have met many of the families in County Kerry and their loved ones. I have met many of their mothers.  What these wonderful families have been put through is absolutely heartbreaking. They are providing the State with a massive service with little or no help. They are caring for their loved ones on a 24 hour per day basis, seven days per week, all year round. They have no choice but to carry out their duties, more often than not without a wink of sleep. Many of these families in our county have not received a night's respite in seven or eight months. Many have had to forego important family events because they cannot get respite. If anyone believes this is acceptable, they are living in cloud-cuckoo-land. This is appalling. It is an absolute disgrace, and it has to be changed. It is at crisis point and has been for many years. We consistently hear about the huge budget for disability services. There is no real evidence of this on the ground so far. The families who are directly involved do not see it and those at the coalface do not see it. There is an urgent need for a cost-of-disability payment. Individuals and families are facing savage financial pressures from trying to deal with their disability, especially now with energy costs like gas, oil and electricity at an all-time high. The Government must introduce a cost-of-disability payment in the budget in two weeks\u2019 time.  The Minister is aware of the Before We Die campaign. Parents are extremely concerned about what will become of their loved ones when they themselves pass away. This is a real concern and a real issue. I received a reply to a parliamentary question recently which stated there were 500 qualified housing applicants and a mere 12 properties available. As the Minister is aware, I have raised the issue of St. Mary of the Angels in Beaufort, which is a fabulous residential facility and campus, along with St. Francis Special School. I am aware that Crowe consultancy group is looking into the future of St. Mary of the Angels. There is massive potential for this campus. Outside of the buildings there is a school, a special swimming pool and lovely gardens. There are approximately 15 acres of prime development land. It is an ideal location in the heart of our county, in mid-Kerry, with many services already being provided. It is the ideal location for a centre of excellence for people with a disability, for day services, day respite, night-time respite and residential care. It will be a missed opportunity if we do not grab this once in a lifetime opportunity to do something big and great that will serve the most vulnerable in society for decades to come, especially in our own county. I plead with the Minister to do everything in her power to give hope to the many families in our county who have been deprived of services they deserve for far too long. It would be sinful if the opportunity were missed. I was obviously delighted to invite an Taoiseach to St. Mary of the Angels recently to meet with the staff, and the staff in St. Francis Special School, to see for himself this fabulous campus and the opportunities that are there. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Cheann Comhairle  Mark O'Shea in the Public Gallery is 95. He has been looking forward to this day. I hope he enjoys it. He is a guest of Deputy Richard O'Donoghue. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Malcolm Byrne  I share the Minister's ambition that this should be the best country in the world in which to be a child. That should apply to every child and they should be able to access whatever services are needed as quickly as possible. I disagree with some of the arguments being put forward about a Government effort to massage figures. If we look at the figures, which are widely available, the scale of need has grown. When the current model for assessment of need applications first opened in 2008, there were 2,535 applications. There were 13,186 last year. We are seeing a dramatic increase in the number of applications. It is important to acknowledge, particularly in work done by the Department of further and higher education, the increase in the number of places on medicine and allied related courses. In 2025, there was a total of 320 additional places in occupational therapy, speech and language therapy and dietetics, and an extra 141 places on third level courses in those areas starting in the 2026-27 year. The Minister has been open and honest in acknowledging the scale of the challenge. I also welcome Government moves in providing additional higher education course places in these specific areas.  That said, like all of my colleagues, I am concerned about how long it is taking to access services. There should be no wrong door. There should be a possibility that a child in need of an assessment has it done as quickly as possible and that they can have access to the necessary services. I was concerned when I found out at the end of last year that for County Wexford there were 261 assessments of need overdue for completion, based on the Department's own figures. In other words, those application assessments had not been completed within six months. There were 261 in Wexford, but in County Wicklow it was 1,194. Those statistics are individuals. They are families, as Deputy Cahill talked about. It is all-embracing, not just for the individual young child or young person concerned, but for their whole family. It is something that is of deep concern. We need to develop and provide certainty to all of the CDNT teams around the country and ensure they have access to a psychologist, a speech and language therapist, an occupational therapist and the necessary admin support to do their work. That is not the case around the country and many of the CDNT teams are not working in ideal conditions.  In that regard, I instance the one in my home town of Gorey, where there has been a continued problem because where the CDNT is operating at present is not up to scratch for a modern clinical team. The intention was to move it to the new Gorey primary care centre whenever it was built. However, the HSE has taken 16 years before it made any decision with regard to that primary care centre. I am appealing to the Minister. Part of the problem with some of the decisions being made is that many areas of Government are not talking to each other. People working in the CDNT are not necessarily engaging as fully as they should with the HSE. There is often a similar challenge with regard to CAMHS. Many of these organisations are operating in silos.  I also touch on an issue I have raised before about CORU and the recognition of overseas qualifications. It is completely bizarre that people are able to acquire good qualifications in medicine and medical-related areas, including speech and language and occupational therapy, but CORU delays their recognition for month after month. We have vacancies that need to be filled. If people want to come into this country to work in those specific areas, we need to fast-track recognition of their qualifications. It should not be a case that a regulatory agency is holding up the recognition of those qualifications.  It is absolutely essential that we place far more emphasis on school-based therapy services to provide as many supports as possible within schools in all of our communities. When Anne Rabbitte was Minister of State with responsibility for disability, there had been a difficulty with a special school in County Wexford about the appointment of a speech and language therapist and occupational therapist. They had been back and forth with the HSE. In fairness to the then Minister of State, she told the special school to go ahead and hire them and she would make sure the HSE paid them the money. There needs to be far more partnership with some schools to ensure that what we have is a child-centred approach in the delivery of all of these services.  I know the Minister is deeply committed on a personal level to reform this and to ensure that assessments of need happen as quickly as possible. However, it is not just about the assessment, but that the necessary support services are put in place. I believe we need to address the costs through some form of cost-of-disability payment in the budget, as has been outlined. I come back to my central point. We want this to be the best country in the world in which to be a child.  There should be no wrong door for any child or their family when it comes to seeking the supports they need. I support the moves being made in this legislation, but it is how it will be implemented and the impact it will have that will make a real difference. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Matt Carthy  The test of any disability Bill is very simple. Will it deliver better outcomes for children with disabilities and their families? Those families have heard enough about reforms, reviews and new processes. What they need has been stated many times. They need assessments and they need services. What I want to know is if this legislation will improve the scandalous situation affecting children with disabilities and their families in Monaghan and Cavan. There are 794 children in my constituency waiting for assessments of need. Virtually none of them will receive it within the statutory six-month period. Each one of that number is a child. Each one represents a family that has been fighting a system that Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael have allowed to fail them.  The Government response is to introduce a new Bill at a time when it is breaking the law that is already in place. I want to say this clearly: the families of these kids will not accept any attempt to simply streamline children off a waiting list rather than deliver their rights. Changing procedure does not provide a single extra speech and language therapist. It does not provide a single additional occupational therapist, psychologist or special education place. Families in counties like Monaghan and Cavan do not need another Government announcement. They do not need a new law. They need the law that is there to be honoured. They need the staff to be employed to do the work. Above all, they need their children to get the services that they are entitled to when they need them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Donnchadh-\u00d3-Laoghaire.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire  Most parents who have children with additional educational needs are very well aware of the context of this legislation. The reality is the Government needs to change the process and the legislation because it cannot abide by its own laws. It is breaking the laws it has set. That is a scandalous situation. There are other issues we could say this about as well, but it is remarkable that there is so little improvement in an issue that has got so much attention and discussion in so many years. In fact, in many respects, things have gotten worse. As things stand, there are almost 2,000 children in the county of Cork who have gone beyond the statutory timeline. About 80% of them are more than three months over the statutory deadline. Even for those in Cork who have an assessment of need, of the 370 reports completed since 2022, only a fraction have service statements to outline what supports and services will follow. Ultimately, the next failing after that is the fact that children who have all the correct documentation, reports and so on are unable to access the services and therapies in an adequate way and on time. That is another issue.  That brings me to access to therapy in special schools. I attended a briefing a short time ago that was also attended by parents of children who attend Carrigaline Community Special School and a special school in Belmayne. Some of the stories told were simply unacceptable. There is a particular issue with ETB schools and the fact that there are not enough therapists attached to the multidisciplinary team. There are also issues with respite. They also raised a lot of other good points about the standardisation of policies and procedures across special schools and training in special education for teachers. Children in Carrigaline Community Special School, in other ETB schools and in all kinds of schools across the State are being failed because there are not adequate therapies available.  I know that this has already crossed the Minister's desk. I urge her to ensure that in schools such as this \u2013 it is not about any one patron, it is about schools as a whole \u2013 get the therapies they need for the children that attend them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mark Wall  I welcome the Minister. I also welcome the intent she has displayed in bringing this Bill forward to make changes to the process relating to assessments of need. While I agree that legislative reform is necessary, I am of the view that the proposed changes presented in this Bill do not address the key issues of resourcing and funding. The needs of children should be met by the State through the provision of well-resourced public health and education services. We all know that early intervention is vital but, shamefully, far too many young children are failed by an under-resourced and overstretched system for assessment and in the context of the provision of essential supports and therapies once diagnosis is secured.  At the end of last year the Government promised targeted reforms to the assessment of need, with the Minister for Education and Youth stating that the system is no longer fit for purpose. This Bill is not the targeted reform parents and their children need. This Bill is short-termist, with piecemeal changes that will have absolutely no real or tangible impact on children and their families.  Every day of the week I try to support families who are being failed by the Government because they cannot get access to the essential therapies they need and deserve. Some 90% of children are not seen within the six-month limit, as required under the Disability Act. The average waiting times have now stretched to more than two years. We have a system that is unable to cope with the demand and it is shortly going to implode.  Only this week, I have been supporting multiple families who cannot get an assessment of need or access to vital therapies. I will give an example from one constituent in Kildare South. It states:  We applied for the Assessment of Need in May 2023, we were advised that an assessment would be completed no later than November 2023, as per the legal requirements. However, this did not happen and I went through the complaints procedure, and received further notification that an assessment would be completed no later than September 2024.  The person involved stated that another two years have passed since the previous deadline and that it has been almost three years since the initial application, which is far too long when it concerns the well-being of her daughter.  Another family of a young child I am working with in Newbridge has been waiting over a year and, equally as important, that child is still without a special school place. That is the harsh reality for many families I am working with throughout Kildare South, as are many of my colleagues in the Labour Party. I have had families tell me that they are forking thousands of euro on services that should be and must be delivered by the State. They are eating into savings and college funds and taking out loans and going to credit unions just to get access for their children to the services they need.  The Minister previously announced the 11 new in-reach teams to provide clinical guidance and support for clinicians performing assessments. The Government can barely staff the CDNT teams throughout the country. Only recently I received a reply from the HSE west and central Kildare area that they are still recruiting for an assessment officer. The most recent figures available to me also show that, as of October 2025, there was an 18% vacancy rate across positions in CDNTs, with over 450 positions unfilled. Vacancies include those key and vital therapies, with 27% of occupational therapies and 44% of clinical psychologists unfilled. Will the Minister provide an update to the House today on the actions her Department is taking to address the workforce challenges we are all seeing right across the State in every area.  As well as that, the reply to the parliamentary question also informed me that they are relying on private providers to increase the capacity of assessments and decrease waiting times. I believe every resource of the State should be used to tackle these issues. However, could the Minister clarify how much the State is paying to private providers at this time? This is an issue across the health sector whereby the State is outsourcing healthcare, and where the Government is not doing enough to prevent long waiting lists and vacancies.  Under the current Act, the statutory timeline for an assessment of need is six months. In the HSE Dublin and Midlands area, there were more than 6,500 children overdue completed assessment of need reports. Nationally, the figure is over 20,000. Figures from the HSE also show that 8,200 children were waiting for their first contact from the CDNT at the end of March 2026. More than 5,260 are waiting over 12 months. The regional healthcare area of HSE Dublin and Midlands, which includes my county of Kildare, has the highest waiting list for first contact with a CDNT, and nearly 1,700 children have been waiting for over a year.  We in the Labour Party have raised concerns regarding continued attempts by Departments to pass the buck. When the Minister previously announced the replacement of the existing assessment of need process with a new system, we in the Labour Party raised concerns as the proposals were to replace the requirement of a formal diagnosis when determining access to a special class and special school.  This, as my colleague, Deputy Eoghan Kenny, stated, is a serious development. Such proposals will have profound implications for school teachers and, most importantly, for the children and families who urgently require timely access to specialist support. By replacing diagnostic criteria with an educational assessment, the Government is placing an unreasonable and unsafe burden on school communities.  The Minister has said that children will no longer need an assessment of need to get a school place and that it will be up to education to allocate places. I presume that reference was to the Department of education. Unfortunately this is not happening for those who require a special school place, as I found out recently in my constituency of Kildare South. For so many parents right now, an assessment of need is one of the criteria for the allocation of a special school place. Some of the families I am dealing with are waiting on an updated assessment of need as the one they have for their child is a number of years old. The problem they have is that their child is now older, the disabilities and medical conditions remain the same or, unfortunately, have increased but they are waiting on an updated assessment of need or an interim report to try to secure a special school place for their loved one. Time is, unfortunately, against them.  I am sure the Minister is aware of statements made by the INTO calling this a profound breach of trust, a sentiment we in the Labour Party continue to echo. The Taoiseach even said that assessment teams would be carrying out such work. I ask the Minister to clarify which assessment teams will actually end up doing this work. This situation is leaving parents with two parallel pathways, with one to get the therapies the child needs and another to get a diagnosis and a school place for the child. The Government's solution is to place more pressure on teachers who are already, as we all know, stretched to their limit. They cannot be expected to pick up the slack from Departments and they cannot take the responsibility for the failure in addressing the huge waiting times. It is a system not based on lived reality.  Only recently my Labour Party colleague, Councillor Ali Field, brought a petition to the European Parliament to fight the case of her family and other families regarding the long waits for an assessment of need. At that time she said:  My son James who has severe autism and is totally nonverbal has been failed by our state on so many levels. James was deprived of essential early intervention help while he was left waiting on a list for almost two years for an Assessment of Needs and diagnosis.  I have been banging this drum for many years now, as have so many parents and advocates. But our government are not listening. They do not seem to realise that they have a duty of care to all children including the children with the highest support needs.  Another mother who signed the petition, Vivienne Sullivan from Kildare, said:  My son Isaac was on the AON list from 2017 to 2025. His file was lost twice, and on another occasion, he was recorded as having been seen when he had not.  We rang weekly and, in the end, daily. Often the phone was unanswered. He finally had an assessment in March 2025, but he still has no access to services. Isaac is 14 now and has been waiting since he was 5. It's not acceptable.  Following this petition I am pleased to see the European Parliament Committee on Petitions has sought a report from the Department on the Government's continued breach of children's rights. I hope that today the Minister will acknowledge this and provide an update to the House on the publication of the report.  In the Labour Party's alternative budget of 2026 we set out how we would urgently invest in tackling what has happened with the Government and how it has added to the growing waiting lists. The Labour Party would have an initial additional allocation of \u20ac15 million under the waiting list initiative to outsource assessments of need for the 5,000 children waiting longest while capacity is built up in the public service. We also need to see urgent action to train more therapists and specialists along with ring-fenced funding to hire future staff. There is also a real question regarding the Government's proposals as to how these new assessment teams will be staffed. Access to an assessment of need has become a major barrier for many families of children with additional needs throughout Ireland. There is an element of short-termism in the Bill as it does nothing to address the long waiting times for assessments of need and does not support timely access to services needed by so many of our children.  I also want to raise concerns about the fact that the Bill will give powers to issue statutory guidelines when the D\u00e1il has not seen sight of those guidelines. As have others, I ask the Minister to confirm the proposed guidelines. What is the timeline for these publications? Has the Minister seen these guidelines? These are critical questions that must be addressed by the Minister and the Department before the House can give any consideration to, or have confidence in, the changes we have been presented with here today. What parents and their children actually need from the Government is a clear and immediate action plan that gets to grips with the growing waiting lists. The workforce challenges in vital services like speech and language, occupational therapy and physiotherapy must all be properly resourced. Children must have access to special schools and school places in their local community. Families need certainty from the Government that their child can access an assessment of need and the services they so desperately need so the constant battle can eventually stop. The Government must give a clear commitment to families on when it will finally comply with its own legal obligation to the assessment of need process under the Disability Act 2025.  I will share another story before I finish, and take young Padraig Creaney from my home town of Athy as an example of the issues and problems I deal with on a daily basis. Padraig got an assessment of need when he was 12 years of age but despite his family continuing to seek a new assessment to cover his additional and, unfortunately, growing needs, it has not been forthcoming for more than 12 years. The family simply does not know where to go next. As it is for the Creaney family in Athy, every day is a fight for these families and their children. They are fighting for basic services. There is a fight for an assessment, a fight for therapies and a fight for a school place. When will the Government finally support these families and actually make a real dent in the waiting times and lists for access to an assessment of need and the vital therapies that the children of this State deserve and have a right to? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Keira Keogh  I welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Disability (Amendment) Bill 2026. For me, disability advocacy is not only a policy area but really personal because for 19 years prior to becoming a TD I worked in the disability sector. I specialised in supporting mainly neurodiverse children at an early intervention level alongside their families and their schools. I know this area really well.  I worked in private practice as a choice because my counterparts and colleagues in the HSE tended to have huge caseloads that yielded a lot of stress and overwhelm. I was able to keep my caseload at a manageable low level and see clients and families on a weekly basis, which often yielded very good results and achievements. I know first-hand the struggles that families with disabilities or suspected diagnoses face. Over many years I referred many families to get an assessment of need, mainly to access home tuition at the crucial and very influential early intervention ages, with regard to ten hours of tuition between the ages of two-and-a-half years and three years and 20 hours between three years of age and preschool.  As a member of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Disability Matters I have had the opportunity to hear detailed evidence from stakeholders, service providers, advocacy groups, parents and, most importantly, people with disabilities themselves for whom we cannot and should not make decisions without their input. In my previous role, my role as a member of the committee and my role as a Mayo TD, one message has come through clearly again and again and it is one that we all know. It is that the current assessment of need system is under huge strain and needs reform. This is something we all agree on. The committee on disability matters has heard repeated evidence of long waiting lists, significant demand, staffing pressures and the frustration and upset experienced by families trying to navigate a system that is really complex and difficult to access in a timely manner.  As we know, data from 2025 showed that 87% of children in Ireland did not receive their assessment of need within the legally required six-month timeframe. This statistic is deeply concerning because behind every one of these figures is not just a number; a delayed assessment is a child or a family waiting for answers and crying out for support or information. These are real children and families who need to access supports to meet their needs. I know, and it will be said again and again, that people can access primary care without a diagnosis and can access a CDNT without a diagnosis but because there is pressure on these services some people turn to an assessment of need thinking it is a faster pathway to services.  Others will definitely still want an assessment of need to understand their diagnoses. As I said, there is then that cohort that wants the diagnosis because, as matters stand, they need it for home tuition or access to an autism class or a special class. I understand from parents that the frustration rarely stems from the assessment itself but, rather, from the delays experienced.  Many families, including those living in rural parts of County Mayo, face long delays for specialist appointments and that can delay access to crucial early intervention that would yield some of the most significant developments in the early years of a child's life. Families really want to have a system that is fair, transparent, responsive and focused on identifying the supports their child needs as quickly as possible. On that basis, there are positive aspects to this Bill. A key aim of the Bill is getting the therapists back doing more therapy rather than spending more of their time carrying out assessments. As this new system is introduced, we must ensure that there are always eyes on the child. That is one of my concerns. I want to ensure that at all points there are eyes on the child and that the assessment officer has the necessary expertise to make the crucial decisions. Where a child is found not to meet the disability threshold, that decision should be issued in writing and with clear reasons provided to the family. The parents must also have access to a review and appeals mechanism, because these decisions do have life-changing consequences and families need all possible transparency and fairness and to have confidence in the process.  One of the most important changes is the emphasis on a needs-based approach. We all agree that the assessment of needs process should be focused on identifying and understanding a child's needs rather than being consumed by unnecessary bureaucracy and administrative difficulty. In my view, a needs-based approach has the potential to allow professionals to focus their expertise where it matters most: on developing appropriate plans and supporting children to access therapies and services sooner.  For families in County Mayo and throughout rural and urban Ireland, outcomes matter. Parents want their child's needs identified early and accurately in order that appropriate health and educational supports can be put in place. It is in this vein that I also welcome the provisions regarding the development of the national statutory guidelines. Families should have confidence that the process is being applied fairly regardless of where they live in the country.  I also welcome the provisions in the Bill relating to the withdrawal, closure and reinstatement of applications. It may be the case that this is a practical response to a reality that many families experience, as individual circumstances can change and families might experience illnesses or a need to move, and under the current legislation there is no clear mechanism to facilitate those situations, which can leave applications inactive within the system for extended periods.  I am nearly out of time, so I will cut to the end and welcome the legislation. I hope it streamlines the process and clears the backlogs, but I do want to make sure that there are eyes on the child as well during the making of these crucial decisions. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cormac Devlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cormac-Devlin.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cormac-Devlin.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cormac Devlin  I welcome the debate on this Bill. Parents who have contacted me about assessments of need consistently raise three points, namely timely appointments, clear answers and a straightforward path that supports their child\u2019s development. We know the current system is not delivering that. In 2008, the HSE received 2,535 applications. Last year, that figure grew to 13,186. By the end of June of this year, 23,282 were overdue. In the first quarter of this year, only one in ten was completed on time. Behind each figure, of course, is a child waiting and a family losing time they cannot get back.  This Bill makes three practical changes. It focuses the assessment on what a child needs rather than on a lengthy diagnostic report, which is in line with the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, UNCRPD. It puts statutory guidelines in place so that a family in my constituency of D\u00fan Laoghaire, or a family in Donegal and elsewhere, can expect the same process. It allows applications to be closed where a family has withdrawn or moved abroad, with a right to reinstate within 12 months. What the Bill does not change matters just as much. The six-month statutory timeline stays, the right to apply stays and the definition of disability stays.  I ask the Minister for one assurance regarding Committee Stage. The Joint Committee on Disability Matters raised concerns about the qualifications of the assessment officers who will decide in the first instance whether a child has a disability. Families need confidence in that decision. I would welcome the Minister setting out how it will be provided. Equally, an assessment records a need. It does not meet it. The 11 new in-reach teams, the therapists now in our special schools and continued recruitment are what will turn this Bill into real help.  This Bill deals with the start of the journey. I want to use my remaining time to comment on the other end of it. In recent weeks, I have heard from parents in my constituency who are part of the Before We Die campaign. I thank them for making their views known. They are asking for progress, and they are right to ask for it. Their question is one that no parent should have to carry into old age: who will care for their son or daughter when they are gone? The evidence supports them.  The latest figures from the Health Research Board, HRB, show more than 2,100 adults using disability services whose main carer is aged 70 or over, and 516 whose carer is over 80. They show that 2,197 people needed residential places, with nearly three in four needing one now. I welcome the acknowledgment by the Minister of State, Deputy Higgins, on Monday that too many families reach crisis point before a residential place is available.  I know the Government has begun to respond. The Taoiseach met the campaign and put the issue on the agenda of the Cabinet committee on disability. This year\u2019s disability budget is a record \u20ac3.8 billion and will be used to fund 152 new residential placements. This week, the Government confirmed that every council will set targets for housing people with disabilities from 2027 to 2030. I will work with my colleagues Councillors Moylan and Clark to make sure that D\u00fan Laoghaire-Rathdown\u2019s target matches that need.  I recognise the providers who carry out this work every day. In D\u00fan Laoghaire, there are many providers, but I focus on one, namely the team at St. John of God Services, which has provided generations of people with outstanding support from Dunmore House. Carmona Services supports 750 children and adults with intellectual disabilities, from early years through to day services, respite, residential homes and independent living. Its staff, and the families who fundraise alongside them, are a credit to the community. Even with services of that quality, Carmona has to tell families that they have to wait for a residential place for too long, and that matters to them. The problem is not the people doing the work. It is the number of places available, and we need to see more progress here.  I have two specific requests to make of the Minister. First, that the successor to the action plan for disability services, due from 2027, guarantee a funded future plan for every adult whose main carer is over 70, agreed with the family before a crisis and not after it. Second, that the Department establish the national register of need these parents have called for, so that every family knows where it stands and the State can plan ahead.  Every family deserves timely assessments and a clear path to services that work for them right through the person\u2019s life. I look forward to working with the Minister and her officials as she continues to make progress on these issues. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mark Ward  Parents being left waiting for assessments of need for their children is a huge issue in my area. To me, what the Government is trying to do here today is typical smoke and mirrors. It is going back to its usual three-card trick by moving children from list to list without them getting the proper therapies that they need at the end of it. I represent the same constituency as the Minister of State with special responsibility for disability, Deputy Emer Higgins. We both represent children who are a waiting list for assessments of need. In our area, as we speak today, over 2,000 children have been waiting for more than six months for an assessment of need. The Government is breaking the law by not providing these assessments under the Disability Act 2005. Last year, instead of providing resources for therapies, the Government spent \u20ac7.2 million fighting these desperate parents in court. These are parents who just want their children to reach their full potential. There is no greater crime than this.  In our area of Palmerstown, 154 children are waiting for an appointment with a physiotherapist. Will the Minister guess how many of these children have been waiting for more than a year for appointments? The answer is that every one of them. This Bill that we are speaking about today does not provide for one additional physiotherapist. In the children's disability network team, CDNT, in Rossecourt, which serves Adamstown, Lucan and Balgaddy, we have only 43% of the number of psychologists that we need in our area. The Clondalkin CDNT is housed in a lovely, brand-new building.  There is no point in having a brand-new building if we do not have the staff to provide therapies there. We have no occupational therapist and no speech and language therapist, and this Bill does not make provision for those posts. I cannot see anything in it that will help the parents who contact me desperately trying to get the therapies their children need in a timely manner. The Government really needs to buck up its ideas and get this sorted. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Thomas Gould  It is unbelievable that we have to come in here every year to talk about the issues with services for children with additional needs and children awaiting an assessment of need. The average waiting time in Cork at the moment is 27 months, notwithstanding the legal requirement that all children should receive their assessments of need within six months. I spoke to a woman yesterday who had received a letter stating that her child would be waiting 36 months for assessment, which is six times longer than the legally permitted time.  Government members come into this Chamber trying to cod the people. They are trying to cod the parents who have to fight every day for their children with additional needs or disabilities. The Minister needs to do her job and address this issue. I have a list in my hand of children with additional needs, special needs and disabilities who are not in school right now because they have no school transport. I spoke to a grandparent yesterday who was driving his grandson to school from Blarney Street in Cork city to Fermoy three days a week. School starts at 9 a.m. and this grandfather waits three hours in Fermoy before collecting the boy at noon and driving him home. How can anyone be expected to do that every day? That child misses two days of school a week. I know of other children who are at home because there is no school transport.  Where are the extra resources? Where are the occupational therapists, speech and language therapists, psychologists, psychiatrists and SNAs people need? Where are the school places and the school transport? Children are being sent from Ballincollig out to Boherbue and Macroom. Children from Knocknaheeny and Mayfield are being sent down to Rochestown. Children from the northside of Cork city are being sent to Fermoy, which is a 40-minute drive. Why are places and services not being provided in communities for the children who need them? It is not right. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  This Bill sums up everything that is wrong with the Government's approach to disability services in this country. We have a crisis, with families crying out for help, and here we have a Bill that is not about investing in the health and education professionals needed to operate a properly functioning system. The Bill is not about addressing that in Chamber House CDNT, where well over 1,000 files simply have not been opened, there is a vacancy rate of more than 50% in some professions and a rate of one third across the board. In Tymon CDNT, also in my constituency, the situation is similar. This Bill is not about providing resources. Instead, it is about looking for shortcuts. Rather than putting the resources in place to meet the goals, it is about shifting the goalposts.  The Government has been under massive pressure on this issue. That is a testament to all the campaigners, parents and families who fought for years to put it on the agenda. Cara Darmody has been outside Leinster House again and again. The campaigners have demanded action on assessment of need and provision of the therapies that must flow from that. The Government is feeling the pressure. At the end of June, 23,000 assessments of need were overdue, with assessment taking an average of two years and two months to complete. That has created a problem for the Government. One of the good things in the law is that assessment of need must take place within six months. That is clear. When people come to me looking for support for their children, the first question I ask is whether they have applied for an assessment of need and, if so, how long they have been waiting. If it is more than six months, the advice we give them is obvious and, I presume, is the same as that given by lots of other TDs. We tell them they should ask a solicitor to assist them to take the State to court. Obviously, it is ridiculous that people must do that. Of course, once the assessment of need is done, children just move onto other waiting lists for necessary therapies. Unfortunately, there is no legal right in terms of timeframes for access to therapy.  The Government has a problem with the law that requires an assessment of need to happen within six months. Instead of the State's approach being to provide the resources to ensure people get an assessment of need within the timeframe and that the State stops breaking its own law, what we are seeing, in effect, are attempts to water down the law to reduce the legal liability on the State. In reality, we should be expanding that liability by introducing timeframes in respect of therapies as well as for assessments of need. Instead, the Government would like to water down its liability.  The pre-legislative scrutiny of this Bill by the committee reported that any reforms to the AON process should not restrict access for children and families and should provide clear and robust procedural safeguards. Witnesses warned that if the legislation resulted in a higher threshold for determining disability before a fuller assessment of need can be carried out, children with complex, fluctuating or less visible needs could be screened out of having those needs assessed at all. It seems none of those concerns has been heeded in the Bill.  What we are getting is a new system that will enable the HSE to unilaterally withdraw assessment of need applications without seeking parents' consent. The conditions under which the HSE can do this are not specified in the Bill. Instead, section 5 provides that this will be worked out in ministerial regulations. That means we will not get a chance to debate, amend or vote on them in the D\u00e1il. It is fundamentally undemocratic. We are expected to take the Minister's word for it that the conditions for withdrawing parents' applications will be fair and reasonable and that the HSE's desire to cut waiting lists will not be a factor. We have seen this previously with other waiting lists, such as for social housing, with people arbitrarily bumped off the list because the State claimed their needs had been met through the housing assistance payment, HAP, or there was no response to a letter.  The power of the HSE to withdraw applications and bump applicants off waiting lists is all the more worrying because there is no requirement first to get parents' consent. The withdrawal is to happen instantly once the HSE decides to issue a withdrawal notice. The parents can challenge it and request a reinstatement but the application will only be reinstated from the date of that request and will not include the time between the notice being issued and the reinstatement request. That could encourage further massaging of waiting lists. What happens if the parents do not get the withdrawal notice because they have moved house? What happens if they have been made homeless? Many parents are going to be in that situation. They will get 12 months to request reinstatement but with the process currently taking two years and two months, lots of parents will not realise they have been taken off the list.  What the Government is trying to do with this Bill is extremely concerning. It should invest in providing assessments and services rather than trying to fiddle the figures like this. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett  Bringing this Bill before us is an admission by the Government that it has failed, and is failing, tens of thousands of the most vulnerable children in our society. Introducing the Bill, the Minister indicated she was mindful of that failure by referring to the unacceptable waiting lists for assessment of need. She talked about the frustration felt by parents and families and the impact on children. However, the Bill she has put forward does absolutely nothing to address that. She did not even bother to explain what the purpose of the Bill was and how it would impact on the problem she briefly and half-heartedly acknowledged, namely, the unacceptable failure by the State to provide the most vulnerable in our society with the necessary assessment of need. Some 28,000 vulnerable children with special needs and disabilities have not received an assessment. When people finally do get an assessment after a long wait, they cannot access the services they need.  The Government's Bill looks designed to cull the lists. It certainly will not deal with the fundamental problem, which is that the CDNTs are massively understaffed.  The Government has failed to recruit the people necessary to staff the CDNTs to be able to do the assessments, and more important, to provide the services, supports and resources children need, which are critical and which their parents are up the wall about because they know they will have a lifelong impact on their children. The failure to get a diagnosis can compound situations in terms of mental health problems the children suffer from, getting bounced between CDNTs and CAMHS.  The change in definition from disability to substantial restriction is very concerning. What does that mean? What defines \"substantial\"? Why does a change in definition address the problem? It is difficult not to suspect that what is happening is that the Government is reducing eligibility, that it is raising the bar to make it more difficult for people to get the services and supports they need, rather than addressing the fundamental problem. It has the right to take people off the list because when people are waiting this long, many people are forced to go private. Where have we seen that story? We have seen it in every public service situation. Long waiting lists force people to go private, leaving the poorest, the least well-off, on the lists and they can be taken off if they do not reply to letters. People who are the most vulnerable and most stressed with housing situations - and often housing crisis situations overlap with children with these sorts of needs - might not reply to letters. They get taken off a list. They realise they have been taken off the list and seek reinstatement but are put at the bottom of the list again. It is unbelievable and it looks, unless the Government can tell us otherwise, like this about culling the list and reducing eligibility for the things that are necessary.  Section 6 gives power to the Minister for statutory guidelines. We do not know what they are. We already have assessment of need guidelines. Why does the Minister need this new power? We are being asked to pass legislation, when we already have guidelines, that gives the Minister the power to pass new guidelines, which we have not been told about and we do not know what they are. It stinks and it certainly will not address the problem. It looks like culling the list. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Stanley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Brian Stanley  The current situation regarding assessments of need cannot be allowed to continue. It is a national scandal. Children with special needs who are vulnerable cannot even get assessed to get proper services. Some 23,000 assessments of need are overdue, having exceeded the statutory timeline. The average duration it takes to get an assessment of need is 27 months. That is the average. Some people wait up to three years. That is not acceptable.  In Laois-Offaly, the figure averages in the region of 900 overdue assessments of need. Laois-Offaly in particular continues to be a blackspot but there are several blackspots in the country. Key to this is the staffing of the HSE. There are not enough clinicians to do the assessments. Getting the assessment is only the first battle in the difficulties for families in Laois-Offaly. The fact is that the CDNTs, in Laois in particular, do not have the required number of staff to provide the therapies and services. That is the real problem. The most recent HSE staffing figures I have are that in network 11, which covers the north of the county, no dedicated occupational therapists have been assigned to date, there are no psychologists and no social workers have been approved. That is network 11. I will move on to network 12 which covers the other two thirds of Laois. Three OT posts and two speech and language posts are vacant and no social workers have been allocated. They are the HSE figures, not mine.  People therefore finish up having to pay for assessments of need privately. Many cannot afford to. It works out at between \u20ac1,000 and \u20ac2,000. Then they have to start paying for occupational therapy, speech and language therapy, psychology and so on. This is putting huge strain on the majority of middle and low-income households. Organisations, such as Laois Offaly Families for Autism, provide support including counselling services and therapies, but they are made up of volunteers. Are we going to load all this on volunteers? These are typically mothers and fathers who have children with special needs and have to raise money to try to provide the services. The legislation brought forward by the Minister could help to speed up the AON process, if it is done correctly, but staffing is the key. Without the staff, the legislation will mean nothing. They are the facts.  I am seriously concerned about the power being given to the Minister and the HSE in section 5 to remove applications. It presents a real danger and the Government has not explained this properly. There is real concern about this and it is deemed an opt-out clause.  Statutory guidelines are promised as part of the Bill. If they were proper guidelines they would be required but it has already been pointed out that there are guidelines in place. There needs to be consistency with standard procedures and transparency. The assessment of need has to be about establishing what the child's needs are. Early intervention at a crucial stage of a child's development is simply not happening. This is the sad thing about all this in many cases. We know the importance of having timely interventions at the point children are at in their development.  What is the update on the 150 additional staff that were promised for CDNTs? In her closing remarks, the Minister of State might give us those figures. They are just to replace the people we are losing from the CDNTs. We need to accelerate that. Will there be enough assessors? I note that 11 clinician guidance teams are promised in the Bill but will be there be enough assessors in place to carry out the assessments of need? That is a key issue that needs to be dealt with. The Government needs to make it a national priority to fill the gaps in the CDNTs properly. In Laois-Offaly and a lot of other counties, but Laois-Offaly is a particular blackspot, that means filling the wide gaps in occupational therapy, speech and language therapy, psychology, social work and other therapies. Anything else is simply window dressing. That is the fundamental point. Resources are needed. Streamline it but do not streamline it in such a way to get people off waiting lists who need to be on them, children who need to be seen, looked after properly and assessed and given the services they require. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruth Coppinger  Before I speaking on this Bill today, I got the views of a solicitor who takes many cases on behalf of parents. This is their initial perception.  This Bill amounts to a significant watering down of the rights of children with a disability. The assessment report under the 2005 Act has been described by the courts as the gold standard. It is supposed to be comprehensive and evidence based and set out the child's needs and the services required to meet these needs if costs were not an issue at all. Under the 2005 Act, an assessment report had to include a statement of the nature and extent of the disability. This was hugely important to families as the report set out the extent of the child's need. Now, all that will be provided is \"a statement of the substantial restriction to which the applicant is subject\".  The Minister of State will agree that is a huge difference. We need to break the news to families, disability organisations and advocates that they need to get agitated about this. In recent years, one of the biggest features of society has been the activism of disabled people and their carers. There was the Green Paper that had to be withdrawn by the previous Government. The care referendum was rejected because of issues around disability rights and there have been campaigns all around the country for school places appropriate to children's needs, by parents, mainly mothers.  It seems that the assessments of need rule really bothers the Government because it gives parents the right to have it done within six months.  We all know that 90% of these assessments are not done within six months, leaving the Government looking really terrible. In introducing this, the Government is now trying to create a new avenue that would get rid of that terrible vista. These assessment reports will be much less comprehensive and less thorough. They are clearly designed to reduce the waiting lists but what will they actually deliver? As has been said, there are huge concerns about people not being classified as disabled in the first place under this legislation. The six-month rule definitely galls and pains the Government.  Some 9,300 children currently await a first appointment with a CDNT. The number has fallen but it is still very high. In Dublin 15, which makes up most of the Dublin West constituency, a task force on special education had to be set up. One of the findings of that task force was that 40% of referrals to the CDNT were still just that - referrals. I heard another TD talk about the waiting list in Cork. I do not mean to make comparisons or to have a poverty competition but in one of the CDNTs in Dublin 15, as of last year, the waiting list was up to seven years long. It is one of the highest by far because of the youthful population. The other one was better.  How is this going to be addressed? The crux of this is that the Government is not able to recruit the professionals who are needed. The reason it cannot do so is that they have fled to the private sector. That is where most of the people are. What is ironic is that they are actually doing these assessments of need privately and parents are paying for them. They have also fled the country because they cannot afford to live here because of the chronic housing crisis that this Government and previous governments have not dealt with. They cannot afford to have a decent life here. Until that is addressed, the CDNT lists are just going to keep on increasing.  I have a million pages of notes here that I wanted to bring in but I will just say that this is an attack on children's rights. Who are these assessment officers? I do not have time to develop that point but perhaps the Minister of State would answer that question because it is not stated in the legislation who the people who are going to do these assessments are. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Ward.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Barry-Ward.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Ward  I broadly welcome the Bill. It is not a very long Bill but it is important insofar as it sets out important minimum standards. One thing on which we can all agree is that we must make this process easier for the people who need assistance. We must make it easier for people to get the assessments and to get help in place so that they can then reap the benefits of that assistance. We know that there are people the length and breadth of this country who need assistance and who, in reality, are not getting it or not getting it in sufficient quantities or in a timely manner. We can all get behind the idea that the purpose of this Bill has to be to make it easier for people who have additional needs and who need the support of the State.  I might start by making a point about the drafting. This is something I say about all amending legislation like this Bill. The 2005 Act is the principal Act, the Act that is being amended, but it is impossible to know what this Bill, which will be an Act, does without having a copy of the 2005 Act next to you. Because sections 2, 3, 4 and 5 amend provisions of the 2005 Act, it is impossible to know what they are actually changing unless you have the 2005 Act present. This is a point I make quite a lot. When we are amending legislation, we should consolidate that legislation. Instead of amending specific provisions within a section, we should repeal that section and restate it in the amending Bill because that would make it much more accessible for everyone. This is part of what I am talking about, the need for it to be more easily accessible. You should not need to have two pieces of legislation to understand what one of them does. In general, we should be moving towards simply restating the law, making it available in one place rather than in two. That is a technical issue more than anything else.  With regard to what this Bill does, the specific and targeted amendments I have mentioned relate to certain aspects of the existing assessment of need process and aim to make the system more effective and efficient. However, I do not believe that legislation alone is actually going to do that. It may well be a tool that is required to achieve it but what the people who need disability assistance and various services want to know is whether this legislation will actually change the landscape for them in real terms. Are they actually going to be able to access the services they need in a timely and efficient manner? The review of the 2005 Act, which is being led by the Department of children, is obviously welcome. The notion of nationwide statutory guidelines to standardise how the HSE carries out assessments and consistency across geographic regions of the country are very important. However, we already have targets that have never really been achieved, including the six-month deadline which has been breached time and time again.  Perhaps the Minister of State will have an opportunity to address this in what she has to say but, however necessary this legislation might be, it is not clear to me how it guarantees in any real way that those targets will be reached. That is a question I am asked all the time by people in D\u00fan Laoghaire. They want to know how we are actually going to change this system so that it works for the people who need those services. Even though the statutory six-month deadline for assessments of need exists in law, every one of us in this Chamber has spoken to constituents. I do not want to say that deadline has been disregarded because I do not think there is anybody out there who is not trying to meet it but we have not managed to deliver on it. We have to be able to deliver if anybody is to have confidence that we are reforming this system in a way that will actually make a difference.  The approach of this legislation has to be about making it easier and more accessible for families. We must ensure the staff are in place to operate this system. If there are vacancies, that needs to be addressed. Most of us will have heard stories of gaps that are there and situations that have not been filled. That creates delays and knock-on effects for families and people with disabilities. That has to be addressed. I sometimes despair at the slow pace of progress. Again, I do not think anybody is deliberately frustrating progress but, as legislators, it is our job not only to put in place measures requiring progress but also to put in place mechanisms to support delivery.  I support the provision of the 11 new inreach teams, which will be available to provide clinical guidance and support for clinicians performing assessments of need and the assessments informed by the new autism access assessment protocol. I note that each team will include a psychologist, a speech and language therapist, an occupational therapist and an administrator. That is welcome because that is the kind of thing you can point to when dealing with constituents. It allows you to say that concrete things are being done to ease the process and to grease the wheels in a way that will actually have a tangible effect on the ground. I welcome the fact that these teams are being put in place.  The Bill is quite short containing not very many amendments. I hope the Minister of State will be able to give us a commitment that the effect of the realisation of these amendments on the ground will be to create greater, more efficient and faster access for people with additional needs, people with disabilities, their families and their parents so that they can get what they need and to deliver for those people. That is what everyone in here wants. That is what we are all waiting for. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"John-McGuinness.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John McGuinness  What every parent wants to know is whether this legislation will deal with the issues and the specific timelines that will be put in place. Will it make the assessment better? Based on this legislation, I cannot tell them. I am happy to support any legislation that will in any way deal with the waiting times for families and the other issues they face in relation to assessments and access to therapists, including occupational therapists, speech and language therapists and physiotherapists but I do not see that in this Bill. Let us not pretend that this Bill is going to fix everything as regards the care of those who need it. It is not. If it is not going to, we have to ask where are the professionals we need to deliver the services, to carry out the assessments and to put in place all of the supports individuals require. There are many other players out there in the delivery of services who are doing it to the best of their ability but whom the Department is not looking at to see if it could learn from them.  I will give the example of SOS Kilkenny. The principal individual there is Francis Coughlan. He has put forward his budgets year in and year out. He has been left short. He is trying to innovate and move the services on within the community. He is trying to support the families. It is an excellent organisation. Every single year, however, he, the families he represents and the individuals for whom he provides the services are being challenged by the State in terms of the delivery of the services that they need. It is the State that is letting them down because it is not planning for the professionals to be employed and to be maintained in their jobs. What they need is the pay that will keep them there and the structure that will allow them to work freely within the HSE or any other organisation. They are not getting that. That is, perhaps, why they are leaving the country and going elsewhere.  I can point the Minister of State to St. Patrick's special school, which is again delivering services way beyond what it should be doing and way beyond what it is being paid for doing. It is not being acknowledged. I encourage the Minister of State to visit the likes of those services and to go Jonah Special School in Slieverue and see what they are trying to do with limited resources, and very successfully doing it, but they require the State to intervene to support them and give them money to develop a modern state-of-the-art service housed in buildings that can accommodate the needs of those children. We are not learning from those at the coalface who are doing this for individual children. Kingsriver Community in my constituency is another project that is doing fantastic work. It is being treated very badly by the HSE. There is no planning in terms of the financing of capital programmes or the financing of the services that they are delivering. The staff are giving more and more of their time - they are not being paid for it - just to make sure their services are being delivered to the clients they have. How bad is that in terms of the reflection on the State? It is absolutely scandalous.  The CDNTs, CAMHS and all those organisations that children get referred to are under enormous pressure. As a result of that, children and families are being pushed from pillar to post. They are not getting the type of assessment that is required or the supports that are needed in a structure that is heavily bureaucratic and is interested in nothing other than fulfilling a timeframe or a limited scope in terms of the treatment of all these cases. Neither do I see a plan in place to look after children as they go through their teenage years and become young adults and to support the families in question. What is going to happen when parents die and move on? What is going to happen to those children? What plan is in place to look after them? Where are the services that are defined that they will need? They are not there. As I worked with the Down's syndrome organisation in Kilkenny, I have seen where they too cannot get services from the HSE. When they get their funding, however, which the Minister of State kindly assisted them with, they are able to buy the services privately. It is the bureaucratic nature or set-up the HSE that causes people to look beyond that service. They can deliver a more streamlined service without the hindrance of the reporting mechanisms that are all there. We should not try to hide the fact that we are failing children and forcing them and their families into the courts. We should not be doing that. Every single cent of funding should go directly to organisations that are successfully delivering the type of therapies and support services that are needed, not just for the individual concerned but for the family also. I have heard these debates over and over again and there are no results. I am deeply disappointed with the system and that there is not more in this Bill. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathy Bennett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Cathy-Bennett.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathy Bennett  There are many issues with this Bill. What I wish to focus on is if it is successful in its content as assessment of need is often only the first step in a long and arduous journey towards seeing these needs met. As Teachta\u00ed McGuinness and Ward stated, this Bill will not provide a single additional speech and language or occupational therapist. It will not provide additional special education places in our schools. It will not address the failures in workforce planning that allow vacancies to persist for far too long. In response to a recent parliamentary question, the Minister highlighted to me the supposed progress made nationally in delivering these reports. However, in my constituency of Cavan-Monaghan, there is no such supposed boom in care for our children. In fact, in half a year just 18 assessment of need reports were completed. This was nearly one third less than in 2024. There were 18 assessments out of 800 applicants. How can the Minister of State stand over this? We are nowhere near addressing this for the people of Cavan and Monaghan. Just one report was completed within the statutory timeframe. There were zero in the previous year. This is an abject failure and an utterly shameful and contemptible failure on the part of the Minister of State and her predecessors. My challenge to the Minister of State is that as the Government looks to progress this Bill through the Houses over the coming weeks or months, she should see how many assessments of need she can oversee the completion of in Cavan and Monaghan in that period. Can the Government deliver one single report within that timeline that it is legally obliged to meet? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pa Daly  When we strip away all of the legislative jargon and the Government's spin surrounding this Bill, one question remains: is it going to get additional services for the children who need it? That is not just a concern that has been expressed on these benches. Even some of the Government's own representatives have questioned whether this is going to happen. The answer, unfortunately, is \"No\". The Bill is being presented as a solution to the assessments of need crisis, but the same Government that has presided over the collapse of the assessments of need system is now introducing the legislation that appears designed just to make the waiting lists look smaller on paper. At the end of June, there were 23,000 children waiting beyond the statutory timeframe for an assessment of need and 20,000 waiting more than three months beyond the legal deadline. Those are children whose development is being delayed. Families are living in uncertainty. Parents are forced to fight the State for years to get the services that they are entitled to receive.  The crisis cannot be resolved through administrative changes like the Government is seeking to do. It requires investment and leadership and that is what the Government has failed to provide. Year after year, governments arrive with a Bill that seeks to streamline the process, but who are they streamlining it for? There is no assurance that families will find themselves removed from waiting lists through bureaucratic processes that they do not fully understand. There is no confidence that children who are taken off lists will be quickly reinstated when circumstances prevent attendance at appointments. Parents have every reason to be worried because this Bill does not address the real crisis. There is not one additional speech and language therapist. There is not one additional occupational therapist. There is not one additional psychologist and no additional special education place. There is no guarantee that any child who receives an assessment of need will actually receive the therapies they deserve. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Nicholas Gogarty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Nicholas Gogarty  I welcome aspects of the Disability (Amendment) Bill 2026. The Minister of State can argue that it is absolutely required, but in another way it is just a reflection of ongoing State failure. For over 20 years, it could be argued that the State has breached its own laws under the Disability Act 2005, which has left so many thousands of vulnerable children without access to services. In this context, we could call any sort of move towards a needs-based approach a positive step because a child should not need a complex medical label just to get their basic speech and language therapy sessions.  Giving the HSE the power to get rid of the defunct applications from the list will give a more accurate picture of the backlog and will reduce the backlog to a degree but the backlog will still be massive. This Bill does not address the actual historical lack of services. The law stipulates that an assessment must take place within six months and yet the reality on the ground, as others have mentioned, is different. Groups are saying different things but the statistics indicate a wait of about 24 to 27 months and in some cases three to five years in individual worst cases. As others have said, it has been estimated that roughly 21,000 children are overdue assessments in the country.  I acknowledge that the State has spent a lot of money on services but the State has also spent about \u20ac23 million on legal fees fighting parents in courts and that money could have been put into the front-line services. Groups like Inclusion Ireland and AsIAm have repeatedly pointed out that the change in the rules does not mean anything when we still have a 30% vacancy rate across the children's disability network teams. Those teams need to be filled.  Deputy Se\u00e1n Crowe raised an issue in this Chamber relating to one particular area in Tallaght in CHO 7. The constituency I share with the Minister of State, Deputy Higgins, including areas like Saggart, Rathcoole, Lucan, Palmerstown and Clondalkin, has one of the worst bottlenecks in the State. I believe it was Chamber House that Deputy Crowe referenced which had a 53% staff vacancy rate, which means a lot of families were left absolutely stranded.  Thousands of families have been told that a child is a so-called \"open case\" but they have never received a first contact from a therapist. The definition changes here will not create those speech and language therapists. We want to see real investment in staff. I know sometimes in other areas of the health and family support services it has been difficult to actually get to that. I acknowledge there is a challenge. This legislation will not get any educational psychologists or other psychologists for families in Newcastle or Rathcoole.  Others might argue that this Bill is purely a cynical exercise in legal risk management, a way to stop parents from suing the State by lowering the bar in terms of what constitutes an assessment. I do not believe that but the Government will be open to accusations unless it backs up some of the measures in this legislation with increased staffing levels so that we can see the number of people on the waiting list coming down. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Michael-Collins.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Collins  Independent Ireland will support measures that generally speed up assessments for children with disabilities. However, let us be very clear that speeding up paperwork is not the same as speeding up care. I have repeatedly raised the waiting times for assessment of need. Families are waiting far beyond what is acceptable. Parents are exhausted, fighting the system while vital years in their children's development are passing by. These are not statistics; these are families. I know of a five-year-old child referred for an assessment of need on 29 May 2026. The family was later told that the child was being placed on a waiting list for a private provider and that this could take another seven months. Families are being told about timelines, stages and processes. What they want is an assessment and the help that their child needs.  Another young man from Bandon was referred for an assessment of need when he was four years old. He is now 12 and still waiting. His family moved address within the same area and informed the HSE but his assessment was never followed up. How can we possibly defend that? Another 11-year-old boy waited 18 months to be seen by the west Cork children's disability network. He was then told he did not meet the criteria and was referred to the primary care for speech and language therapy, and psychology. After waiting 18 months he was simply moved from one waiting list to another. That is not a joined-up disability service.  This problem does not end with children. A 47-year-old woman with an intellectual disability has been waiting for two years for a place with CoAction Skibbereen. She is at home for 24 hours a day with her elderly father without the stimulation and socialising she needs. She has been assessed as suitable for the service but still has no place. She should not be facing another winter sitting at home simply because the services are not available.  We also deal every year with parents desperately trying to find special class places for children with autism. Children reach school-going to age without their families knowing whether their child will have an appropriate school place. The same uncertainty happens year after year. That is unacceptable. The same applies with SNAs. Principals across Cork South-West tell me they need greater SNA support. The system must recognise the needs that exist in the classroom.  There were also serious problems with this year's summer programme with late planning, portal problems and delayed approvals. Schools need adequate notice so that they can recruit to teachers and SNAs, and properly plan for vulnerable children. One principal in Cork South-West told me about a child who had received additional staffing and had successfully attended the summer programme for the previous two years. This year, the additional staffing was refused. The principal faced a choice of telling the child he could no longer attend or somehow make the programme work. She refused to turn the child away and instead she gave up her own paid role and worked without remuneration so that another staff member would be paid and the programme could operate safely. No principal should have to work for nothing to plug a hole created by the State.  Early intervention is supposed to be the cornerstone of our disability services but early intervention is meaningless if a child spends years waiting for an assessment and then joins another queue for speech and language therapy, occupational therapy or psychology. I agree that we should speed up assessments but above all we need to put the staff and services behind those assessments.  I have been involved in many of the meetings that have taken place over the past 12 months or so. The problem for children with intellectual disabilities is that they have no voice. If their parents are not strong enough to be the voice for them, they are left out in the cold. I know of a child in Castletownbere who cannot get transport services. That child is currently at home sitting with her dog every day of the week. That is no place for that girl to be. She is an intelligent child. She needs to be respected but she cannot because there are no services. There are no transport services. The whole system is broken from start to the finish.  There are 85-, 90- and 95-year-old parents trying to drive children for intellectual disabilities services which sometimes are not there. Even if they are there, the elderly parents are no longer able to do it. They are not getting the help that is needed. A very serious issue that needs to be looked at is the transport service for people with intellectual disabilities. The Before We Die campaign is trying to fight to give their children a right to have a home. Many of them can live independently as we have proved in a project we did in Schull, where there are two children with intellectual disability. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Richard O'Donoghue  We can pass whatever legislation we like in this D\u00e1il but first we need to have the people to carry out the assessments to support the legislation we are putting through. We are able to bring in all this different legislation but we are not able to follow through on it, which is disappointing. We have the housing crisis. Students are qualifying in different fields within medicine and then have to leave the country because they see no future here. It is down to supply and demand. We have fantastic skilled workers here in various different fields.  I spoke to a woman last week who had completed her qualifications and was going into the health service. She has done four years and was about to do a further year in the area she wanted to cover. She looked at it on the basis of how much it was going to cost her even though she was trying to further her education to help people. She decided she had enough and was going to head off. I met her parents who were devastated that she had to leave the country. This is a young person aged 24, not long out of college and she wanted to further her education. She said to me that she had no future in Ireland. She said, \"I want to stay near my family. I want to work within disability. I have no future. My only future is to leave this country.\"  We have inflation issues, over taxation of people who are working and over taxation of fuel for cars which are necessary for people to go to work.  Every young person who wants to stay here is given no option but to leave. Who is going to suffer only the people on the waiting lists and the people from disability sectors who need help? That, to me, it is a failure for the Government not to see it has to make sure everyone in this country who wants to stay here is given the right to do so and can see a future and raise a family here, if they so wish. Looking at the statistics, the age of couples who want to settle down to have a family, compared to one decade back, has changed and gone forward ten years. I know people who are settling down at 35, 36 or 37. I was married at 26. That is the difference today. Even those couples who do not want to get married are not settling down until closer to their forties and possibly having only one child.  When we go forward two or three decades from now, we will be looking for people to look after us, but they will not be there. What are we doing? We are driving them out of this country because we are not putting in the proper supports for them so they can care for others. That is the sad thing about this. We can make legislation, but it is only a piece of paper. It is no good unless you can actually put the proper infrastructure behind it to make sure it happens. The infrastructure in this case is to give all the young people qualifying in this country the opportunity to stay here. We have to keep them here. This has to come through not just in the disability or health sectors but also in the housing sector and ensure there is viability so that they can see a future. If you cannot achieve that, you will not achieve anything.  We are going to have to work together. I ask the Government to listen to reason. The budget is coming up. It could do one thing in this budget to help everyone in this country and give them a small piece to ensure they have some bit of money left in their pockets at the end of the week. I have said already and will say again that there is only one piece Government has got to do that will have a knock-on effect across everything, and that is a cap on the taxation of fuel in this country. Fuel can keep rising but increasing the fuel cost and increasing the taxes on people we want to keep here will drive them out of the country all the time.  On the other side of that, you have people protesting. People in this country cannot afford to protest and do not want to protest. They are not going out and jumping up and down just for the sake of it; they see no other option. They are not criminals and they should not be put down as that. They are people who see no other option and they are standing up for people from the disability sector, the vulnerable and children. They stand up for all those sectors. The Government has a chance in this budget to give a small lifeline to people to make sure we can hold them in this country. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Peadar-T\u00f3ib\u00edn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Peadar T\u00f3ib\u00edn  This Bill is a three-card trick. It is dressed up as an effort to help people with disabilities and special needs but it is little more than a press statement in the form of legislation. It costs very little to produce and draft a Bill, but there is a cost to providing services and to providing the professionals needed to be able to deliver those services. The assessment of need system is under enormous strain. More than 20,000 assessments are overdue and more than 90% of children are not receiving an assessment of need within the statutory six-month timeframe. Applications for assessments of need have risen from approximately 4,700 in 2020 to 13,000 last year. Those figures represent thousands of children and families waiting for answers and supports. The parents who want to spend their energy on helping and raising their children are actually spending all of it on trying to get the services they are entitled to and to negotiate the system that is preventing them from getting the help they need. We heard before at the committee on disability that organisations accept the need for reform. They accept that the current system is not working well enough. However, they also raise serious questions about this Bill and the fact it does not address the root causes of this problem.  One concern that has been raised repeatedly is that the problem is not simply the assessment process itself but, rather, capacity. Organisations repeatedly pointed to shortages of psychologists, occupational therapists, speech and language therapists and other professionals across the disability sector. They described a system which demanded continuous growth in resources but is not being provided for. During that committee, it was noted that a disability team which originally supported about 121 children with eight staff members was later supporting 628 children with only an additional six staff members. The result was that waiting lists went back years rather than weeks.  I want to reference the work of Cara Darmody, who has been hailed, and rightly so, in this D\u00e1il as a young girl who has probably done more on the whole issue of assessments of need than any TD here. TDs are so fast to get their photographs taken with her but they are not listening to her and that is the key issue. One of her recent proposals was that to fill the gap of professionals and staff needed, it would be logical to try to contract in those resources privately to deliver that work. She made that request to the T\u00e1naiste at least six months ago and made it again recently. I am a great believer in public services but you also need common sense and cop-on. If there are private staff available here or in Britain, they should be used to bring down the current waiting lists.  The evidence points overwhelmingly to a shortage of staff and this Bill will not change that. It changes procedures but it does not change capacity. It does not increase the staffing levels or create an additional entitlement to supports once an assessment has been completed. This is a significant limitation - a life-changing limitation, in reality.  I am also concerned by the introduction of a preliminary determination of disability before full assessments of need take place. Many people simply see this as a trick by the Government to reduce the waiting lists in the future. Assessments of need should be focused primarily on understanding the child's needs and identifying appropriate supports. Care must be taken to ensure additional procedural steps do not create further obstacles for families already navigating complex systems. Careful scrutiny is required regarding the provisions that allow applications to be deemed withdrawn and closed. There will also need to be a process is needed to deal with circumstances where a case can no longer progress. Legislation must also recognise practical circumstances such as communication failures, changes in contact details and family circumstances and simple administrative errors. Strong safeguards are essential.  Another issue that must not be overlooked is what happens after an assessment has been completed. The Disability Act provides a right to an assessment but it does not provide a corresponding right to receive the supports identified during that assessment. For families, that distinction is critical. Receiving confirmation of a need is important but having that need met is what truly matters.  The Bill also gives considerable weight to future guidelines. Greater consistency across the country is a worthwhile objective, but people with disabilities, families and representative organisations should have a meaningful role in shaping the guidelines that will ultimately influence how assessments are conducted and how eligibility is interpreted. Ultimately, legislation must be judged by outcomes. If waiting lists remain at current levels, children continue to wait for years for assessment and supports remain unavailable after needs have been identified, families will see little practical benefits from procedural reform alone. Reform is necessary, consistency is necessary and clarity is necessary but, most of all, capacity is necessary. Until those reforms are matched by investment in staff, services and supports, we risk changing the process without changing the experience of the child and the families who depend upon it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Albert Dolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Albert Dolan  I welcome the opportunity to speak on this Bill. Supporting people with disabilities and their families is a priority, particularly for me as a TD for Galway East, to ensure the people of Galway East receive the services they deserve. I want to see a system that supports their needs close to home and gives families confidence for the future.  I start by acknowledging the work Government has been doing.  It provided \u20ac20 million this year for the assessment of need targeted wait list initiative, the development of therapy services in special schools and the work to recruit additional clinicians. All of this is to be welcomed and encouraged. It is a case of building on that. With those measures, we have to be honest about where we are. As of the end of June, more than 23,000 assessment applications were overdue. Behind every one of those applications is a person waiting and a family trying to understand what help is available and when it will arrive. For a parents watching their child struggle, being told the system is under pressure offers very little reassurance. They know that early intervention matters. They need to see that urgency reflected by the system.  This Bill proposes practical changes to make the assessment process more consistent and more focused on a child's needs. I support that direction. Where an appropriate assessment can establish the support a child requires, we should avoid unnecessary duplication that takes clinicians away from providing therapy. I also welcome the retention of the statutory right to apply for an assessment and the existing six-month statutory timeframe. Those protections matter and families must have confidence that reform will strengthen the system. The provisions for closing and reinstating applications must be handled sensitively. A family overwhelmed by caring responsibilities may struggle to respond to correspondence and they need to be given the time to address and deal with it. They must receive clear communication and meaningful support before an application is deemed withdrawn. We must also remember that completing an assessment does not in itself provide a child with therapy. Families need access to speech and language therapy, occupational therapy and the other supports identified. Children who need help must be directed towards appropriate services even when they do not meet the statutory definition of a disability. Our responsibility continues into adulthood. People need suitable day services, respite and residential supports with genuine choices about how and where they live. Families need confidence that those supports will be there as the circumstances of the family change.  I was over the moon last year when I saw that the ring-fenced disability capital budget was going up by \u20ac15 million to a total of \u20ac43 million. I ask the Minister of State to go back to her Department and get absolute clarity about how that money has been spent this year to date. What capital projects have been delivered in disability this year? Where has the money been consumed that was ring-fenced for capital budgets? Has it all been consumed by detailed design and tender stages and planning, or have we actually delivered tangible disability projects? I work closely with Corlann, formerly Brothers of Charity, and also Ability West in Galway. They are legacy organisations. They have sites and they have space. Does the Minister of State know what they do not have? They have a huge service-level agreement with the HSE on how to deliver services and they obviously have their negotiations about funding, but they have no provision for capital funding to build the homes themselves that they could staff, man and where they could provide the respite support and the residential care. They then end up taking on more residential units and paying huge rents. Those end up being commercial leases. The people who go into residential care under the commercial lease, and Corlann and Ability West, do not get the same protections as a normal tenant would in a residential dwelling. As a result the organisations that this State is funding are subjected to crazy rent increases. One could not imagine how much residential care homes rents' to landlords, because they are not protected the way a residential lease is, but are under a commercial lease.  If the \u20ac43 million in the disability capital budget has been primarily consumed by lengthy planning applications, tender stages and detailed designs but no real delivery, maybe it is time to change the way we do it. In the forthcoming budget, the Government should look at giving a devolved grant to the disability organisations around the country for capital projects exactly the way it works with education. One could say to Corlann or Ability West that we will give them \u20ac2 million this year and they can deliver the services. It is like sports capital. When you give it to an organisation with this modus operandi and drive, it will do an incredible job at delivering it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Martin-Daly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Martin Daly  I thank the Chair for giving me time to speak on what is an important amendment to the Disability Act. I welcome the amendment to the Disability Act on its narrow basis, which is to streamline the assessment of need process and ensure that assessments of need are not used as a barrier to accessing services. It is clear that the statutory guidelines will be changed, which will standardise the assessment of needs process nationally and provide consistency throughout the country. That is to be welcomed. It is also to be welcomed that the assessments of need will not be used as a barrier to therapies within the HSE or access to special education in future and that there will be other pathways for children who have special and additional needs to have access to those therapies and assessments.  I welcome the 11 new in-reach teams which will include an occupational therapist, speech therapist, psychologist and an administrator to help professionals within the service to carry out these assessments that will allow children to access therapies in a timely way. The Minister and Minister of State have brought considerable focus to trying to streamline access to services like the single point of contact with the HSE. Clinicians and professionals in the community will be able to refer to a single point in the HSE. That decision on whether children are to be seen by primary care, CAMHS or a CDNT will be made in-house and not be sent back to a general practitioner to reapply for that service. The advent of the autism assessment intervention pathways is also to be welcomed and will hopefully take away some of the pressure on the assessment of needs requirement. All of those are welcome developments and the changes that are proposed under this amendment are also welcome.  I have to put this into context as well. I am aware of the focus that has been brought by having the disability unit in the Department of the Taoiseach and of the increased funding of \u20ac3.8 billion this year which came with that. However, it is incumbent on the Government and the Department to ensure that these changes are not perceived to be in some way reducing waiting lists and creating a false narrative around the access to therapy. It is true that we do not have the capacity that we require under all the different services, whether CDNTs, primary care, CAMHS or special education in schools, and that we do not have the capacity to deal with all the young people who require those therapies and interventions. It is really important that the Government recommits to ensuring that the required professionals, both in the community and in the different organisations, are recruited and retained within the system in order to provide these services. If you are telling someone that there is no longer a barrier of having to have an assessment of need in order to gain access to various therapies in circumstances where people can directly access those therapies but where there are no therapists available to provide them, then the Bill will mean nothing.  It is important to point out that the delivery of special classes throughout the country has improved. However, there are companies which provide modular school buildings and which have good records in doing so but which are finding it increasingly difficult to deal with the building unit in the Department of education when it comes to the provision of schools and special classrooms.  I need to put that on the record. We need to streamline our procurement processes to make it easier and to provide more competition within the sector to provide this necessary infrastructure. I will give an example. We have three building companies, modular companies, who have an agr\u00e9ment from the NCAI, which allows them to build these schools. They have track records on that. One of them in particular is precluded from a framework within the Department of education and that is something that is to be regretted.  I am going to come back to personal stories. I received a letter from a paediatrician yesterday who referred a young person who has generalised anxiety to the local CAMHS service in County Galway. That paediatrician received a letter back without the CAMHS service seeing that adolescent and essentially pointed them in a different direction, to counselling services in the community and other such things. That consultant paediatrician had made a clinical assessment of that adolescent and had felt that the young boy deserved an assessment by a CAMHS team but was simply rebuffed by another part of the service. I met a young mother the other day who has an 11-year-old young person with autism and has had a very difficult time in gaining access to services. There is a lack of communication between primary care, CDNT and CAMHS and the only people who suffer in this regard are the children and the parents who are involved. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Claire Kerrane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Claire Kerrane  I hope the Minister of State has listened very carefully to the many speakers in this House. I have sat in for most of the debate and I think it is clear from Members of the Opposition, as well as her own party and Government backbenchers, that this Bill does not actually deal with the nub of the issue. If the issue in terms of assessments of need was that we have far too many children on the waiting list who do not actually need to be on the waiting list and we need to remove them from the waiting list, then this Bill might be in some way useful. That is not the issue, however. Time and again, the actual issue is raised. The issue is that we do not have the workforce or the therapists to meet the needs that are there in terms of children that need supports. The only question that we should be answering in terms of any legislation - whether legislation is actually needed or not in the first place - is how do we get children who have additional needs the support that they need when they need it, which is now, how do we access those children and how do we ensure the easiest way for them to receive the supports. As my colleague, Deputy \u00d3 Murch\u00fa, has said many times, at this stage it probably is the schools. It probably is having the therapies in the school setting and the supports and the services actually going to the children, rather than the other way around.  In Roscommon and Galway, the people whom I represent, are in no way different to many parts of the State; in fact, every single county in the state. We have had a situation in Galway in particular where the number of overdue assessments of need has more than doubled. The average wait time now is 24 months, that is, two years. Looking at the data for quarter 1 of this year, four assessments of need were completed in Galway and eight were completed in that same period in County Roscommon.  There are questions that have been raised here in terms of the guidelines and what those guidelines will look like, as well as assessment officers, who they will be, what their backgrounds will be and whether they will have any clinical expertise. Those questions need to be answered and they should really be answered in legislation like this or at least in this House. For a lot of people out there, this is just going to look like another layer. It is another layer on another layer. We are talking about 11 in-reach teams when we cannot staff our CDNTs in many parts of the country, we cannot staff or retain our primary care therapists, and now we are going to have another layer of more therapists when, in reality, those therapists are not there. That is the nub of the issue and I do not believe that this Bill will deal with the actual issue, which is workforce. That is really concerning.  Issues have been raised in terms of therapists coming home. More can be done on that, particularly those who are educated and receive their professional degrees in England, for example. There have been difficulties in that regard. For parents looking in, however, it is one issue after the other. It is the school place, the SNA, and July provision. As for dental checks, when I was in school, you got two or three dental checks but now a child is lucky to get one. We are going backwards in terms of basic supports and services for children. Again, I come back to the primary question, namely, how do we get children with additional needs the supports that they need when they need them? I do not believe, unfortunately, that this Bill is going to do that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gillian Toole","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gillian-Toole.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Gillian-Toole.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Gillian Toole  I will start echoing the sentiment Forest E. Witcraft, who said, 100 years from now it will not matter what his bank account was, the car he drove or what house he lived in, but what will matter is the difference that he made in the life of a child. That is integral to what we are discussing here, namely, meeting the needs and embedding rights into our legislation. I will try to confine my comments to this amendment to the 2005 Act. This came about from a 2023 report by the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child. It recommended that Ireland should review the relevant legislation, including disability legislation, the EPSEN Act and Equality Acts to bring them in line with a human rights-based approach to disability. I am aware that the six-month right is enshrined. That is not changing; it is its delivery and pivotal to that is reducing waiting times and urgently addressing staff shortages.  I acknowledge the initiatives to extend the third level placements for occupational therapists, speech and language therapists and educational psychologists. I would also like to commend Dunboyne College of Further Education, which runs gateway courses for speech and language therapy and occupational therapy. I have actually linked Catherine Fox, the principal, with the HSE and the school of nursing in Maynooth. They have that memorandum of understanding already. There are things that can be done proactively.  If we go back to the rights piece, however, that is effectively what we are dealing with here. Next month, I think, Professor Noel Purdy and the inclusive education task force that has been convened will begin their work in earnest. They have a six-month timeframe to work through. That is dealing with the review and the implementation and the action plans from the review of the EPSEN Act. Again, that is feeding into the delivery of services. I do not for one minute deny the fact that recruitment is key to all of this.  In terms of the committee deliberations, I thank the secretariat, the Library and Research Service, the individual parents who wrote into the committee and the 16 different stakeholder groups who put a huge amount of time and effort into the submissions to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Disability Matters. The Minister of State has the report from the committee and its recommendations, particularly the cross-cutting recommendations. In particular, I raise recommendation No. 26 on page 20. Key to that is the recruitment piece and again, every possible opportunity to recruit from abroad to retain the graduates that we train here. Perhaps there is a contractual piece that can be done there whereby we prioritise our graduates to come back after they have travelled abroad. There is another key piece in the report in relation to recommendation No. 29. It calls for a review of the legislation 12 months from commencement, as well as a further review within 24 months. That is pivotal.  Areas that were of concern to me included, I have to admit, section 4 regarding the deemed withdrawal but I am pleased to hear and to read of the reinstatement and the fact that families can reapply within 12 months. That was an area of concern but I am pleased to see that it is proposed to be addressed. In relation to section 6, the Ombudsman for Children's Office had raised concerns. We discussed them at the committee, as well as the statutory guidelines. They are also very welcome.  Last week, I met the Meath disability services team manager and we went through recruitment. We have identified the shortfall in places for OTs, speech and language therapy and child psychology in the Trim area CDNT. That is having a serious knock-on effect. I suggested to her, as I have done with the Minister of State previously, that waiting list initiatives should include access to integrative therapies relating to all the things we included in our inclusive education report, namely art therapy, drama, equine therapy, music, nurture rooms, sensory rooms. We can meet some of the needs of children while the families wait by being creative and by complying with legislation. The Department did it this summer with the alternative respite funding that was made available. I ask that where, in the context of children who are not in special classes or special schools, if a teacher or an early years educator identifies a need - they are professionals after all - the Department should take their word for it and expand the wait list initiative and alternative respite funding. That will allow us to hit the ground running.  There is an excellent service, Ability Equine Assisted Therapy, in north Meath. It is at risk of being wound up. It is a charity and everything is above board, but those involved are so busy trying to meet the needs of families in north Meath that have children who may have regulation or behavioural issues or occupational therapy issues. There are good people doing good work, and we need to be creative with the framework to support them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Heneghan  Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an Teachta Toole. B\u00edonn s\u00ed i gc\u00f3na\u00ed ag teacht isteach sa Teach seo chun solutions a thabhairt. I commend her on her work on the disability committee. I also commend the Minister of State and her staff on the Bill and the sensible measures it contains and on the work that has been done. I will always support anything that makes the process faster, clearer and more consistent for every parent and child across Ireland.  There are definitely good provisions in the Bill. I commend the standardising of the process across the six health regions. If this is done right, it will be life-changing. Giving the families the proper mechanisms to withdraw applications temporarily and reinstate it makes sense. I really welcome that. Some of the parents I have spoken to are happy and feel like they are being listened to. However, there will always be something I will look to add. We need to be clear about the scale of what is involved. There are thousands of overdue applications for assessments of need. I have submitted parliamentary questions on this matter. Changing the process will help, but we cannot just change the process. We must also change capacity and what will happen to the child and their family after they get an assessment. That is what parents keep telling me and that is what I will keep pushing for.  I recently spoke to a mother in Dublin Central - she is watching me right now \u2013 about access to her son\u2019s OT. I have emailed the Department and all the stakeholders involved. Her point is very straightforward. Families continually hear about increased budgets, new posts and additional investment but this means very little when their child is still waiting for an appointment. There is a huge issue with OTs in Dublin Central. I would love the Department to investigate this and see what can be done. Dublin Central is not my constituency and this is not something I would generally raise, but the woman in question is a very passionate and solution-focused mother and I wanted to raise her case.  There are other things we need to look at. I have raised this with Deputy Carrigy when the Oireachtas committee was focusing on autism with in relation to CORU and the recognition of foreign-qualified practitioners who can help with our waiting lists. The Department responded to some of my parliamentary questions by saying that it will investigate the possibilities in this regard. I am looking for an update on speech and language therapists and OTs who qualified in other EU countries. Sometimes they are missing one qualification that does not allow them to practise here but if they went to the US, Australia or Canada, they could practise. I do not understand when we are in an acute crisis that this is the case.  It is not just a case of how many posts there are. We also really need to look at the regulatory bottlenecks. Another point that coincides with this is one that is not specific to disabilities. I was speaking to people in Athletic Rehabilitation Therapy Ireland, ARTI, about waiting lists for AT. They raised a very reasonable question which underlines my point. If appropriately qualified professionals could assist in reducing pressure on services but the barrier to doing so is regulation and policy, why can we not speed that up? I ask the Minister of State to examine not only ARTI\u2019s position but the wider CORU recognition and regulatory process so as to speed up qualification recognition and so reduce waiting lists. The disconnect between the unidentified needs does exist and needs to be addressed.  Going back to my constituency, there is a documentary by Eric Roberts relating to Stapolin Educate Together National School. I have raised this multiple times in the House. The Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan, visited the school and was brilliant on site. He has constantly engaged with my office, and I welcome that. I would love for the Minister of State or any of her staff to address this matter too. The school has already been awarded three special classes. It has applied for two additional special needs modular rooms. I was informed by the Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan, on Friday that the application is currently under consideration. If anything can be done on that, I would really welcome it. This goes back to the point that if we granting assessments, we have the data that the children are there. The school in question is saying it will provide the places. We need to be able to respond quicker to that and to CORU regulations. It is another part of the conversation we cannot ignore. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Danny Healy-Rae  I welcome the Disability (Amendment) Bill and any improvements it will make to the assessment of needs process relating to children. We have spoken at length here about children with disabilities and adult children with disabilities. In Kerry, their lot has not improved much. I am asking again for the Government to be more meaningful and to mean what it says. There are far too many families with additional needs and disabilities who are waiting far too long for their assessments of needs as well as other appointments of speech and language therapists, occupational therapists or physiotherapists and SNAs. We have been waiting, and there is a serious lack of all those people.  Early intervention is crucial for a child with additional needs. It is shameful to see the length of time children have to wait for an assessment. Many are obliged to wait years. When a baby is born and grows up a little, the parents sometimes find that something is lacking or wrong. They want the best for their child, which is only natural. The cost that they have to bear could be for all their lives as they want to improve the lot of that child. There is a shortage of staff in all these areas, and positions do not seem to be filled when someone is transferred or goes out on leave. It is not fair on these families that they have to wait so long and fight for their children to receive the treatments they need. Many families have no option but to pay out for private assessments or therapies even if they cannot afford it. Many cannot afford it and have to go short on something else. They dearly love their children and they want them to have the best so they will do anything or go short themselves to ensure that they get those things. It is not fair that in many instances the State is leaving these families behind.  Then there are adult children. I have a serious concern about elderly parents caring for elderly adult children who have disabilities and special needs. These parents contact me. Their main concern is what will happen to their adult child should something happen to either one or both of them. That is a serious concern for these people. I worry when I see what these adult parents have gone through all their lives and what they continue to do on a daily basis. They have to bring their children into Killarney to attend day centres.  It is unfair that these elderly parents are not provided with the necessary respite care or options for respite to give family members a well-earned rest. There is a huge shortage of residential care for adults with disabilities.  I again ask that the Government consider St. Mary of the Angels, which has been and continues to be closed by stealth. It is an ideal location that should be considered to provide respite, as it is badly needed. St. Mary of the Angels is in the heart of mid-Kerry, in Beaufort. It was a farm given free to the health services by the Doyle family, going back in time. It is an ideal place to improve and to have more respite there rather than sending adult children who need respite up the country to Tipperary and, in one case, to County Meath. That is not fair on the people in Kerry who are trying to see after and to mind adult children and to get a break in sending them to respite services. I appeal to the Government. There is a Fianna F\u00e1il Minister in Kerry, and I ask her to do her utmost to ensure that St. Mary of the Angels is opened up properly and developed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Carol Nolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Carol Nolan  The starting point for any discussion on this Bill must be the reality facing families in Offaly. Last year, I revealed that 525 children across the children's disability networks serving County Offaly were waiting for an assessment of need. Families are entitled to ask why, after years of reviews, strategies and reform programmes, waiting lists remain unacceptably high and legal timelines continue to be breached. The State's first duty must be to ensure that children receive assessments and supports when they need them and not years later. The experience of families across Offaly demonstrates that disability services remain under immense pressure. While the Bill focuses heavily on assessment processes, legislators must be honest about the real issue. The greatest challenge is not paperwork or procedure but the chronic shortage of qualified professionals available to deliver the services that are so badly needed.  Recent information I received from the HSE highlights clearly just how severe the staffing crisis has become. The sole speech and language therapist post serving adults with intellectual disabilities across Laois and Offaly has remained vacant since May 2023, with repeated recruitment efforts unsuccessful and no clear timelines for filling the position. I was appalled to learn that the same strategy - the same recruitment procedure - that had clearly failed was still in place after three years, it appears that this issue was not escalated to senior management of the HSE, and people were expected to wait. I am appalled by this because it is nothing short of neglect. I feel there are solutions. I have mentioned lots of times in this Chamber that therapists need to be redeployed into Offaly from regions where it is not as bad as this. Laois and Offaly are definitely the worst in the State when it comes to the lack of therapists. Of course, I commend the therapists we have, who are trying to hold a broken system together, but they need help. I cannot understand why therapists from the other CHO areas, where there is not a backlog, cannot be brought in in addition to private therapists. People are really being failed, and it is appalling and unfair to continue with such an approach. The fact that a key disability service can remain without a specialist provision for more than three years should be a wake-up call as to how urgent the situation is in County Offaly and County Laois. It raises profound questions about workforce planning, staff retention and the ability of the State to meet even basic standards of care.  Any reform of the assessment of need process will fail if the Government does not address recruitment and retention. Assessments alone do not help children and adults unless the therapists, psychologists and specialists needed to provide services are actually in place and available. Front-line staff continue to work under immense pressure and deserve the recognition for their commitment, as I have previously stated. The failures within disability services stem from systemic workforce shortages, not from the dedication of professionals on the ground.  I ask that Offaly be made a priority because we have too many failures. We have struggled for many years with the lack of speech and language therapists and the lack of occupational therapists. I had a case earlier this year where an elderly gentleman who had worked all his life and paid his taxes was waiting and waiting for a basic assessment to be carried out. Nine medical referrals were sent on his behalf. That is shocking. We need to collaborate and we need to put solutions in place urgently. I call for my county of Offaly to be prioritised with therapists. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Darren O'Rourke)  Before we go to the Minister of State, I want to welcome to the Public Gallery a delegation from the European Committee of the Regions. T\u00e1 f\u00e1ilte mh\u00f3r romhaibh. I hope your visit is an interesting and a fruitful one. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Children, Disability and Equality (Deputy Emer Higgins)  T\u00e1 f\u00e1ilte rompu.  As Minister of State with responsibility for disability, I am pleased to conclude this Second Stage debate on the Disability (Amendment) Bill 2026. I thank all Deputies for their contributions and their insights, which the Minister, Norma Foley, and I will reflect on as this legislation moves through the next Stage. I also want to take this opportunity to respond to some of the points that have been raised during the debate.  As the Minister outlined, the Bill makes very specific and targeted changes to Part 2 of the Disability Act 2005, which sets out the assessment of need process. Since the principle Act was commenced over 20 years ago, demand for assessments of need has continued to grow, particularly in recent years. There are a number of reasons for this. Our population has grown. There is greater awareness of disability and developmental needs and greater awareness among families of the assessment of need process and the supports available to help children reach their full potential. That is positive but it has also placed very significant additional pressure on a system that was not designed to deal with the level of demand we now see.  The scale of this increase has been significant. Between 2022 and 2025, applications for assessments of need doubled. In the first six months of this year alone, 7,100 applications were made to the HSE. The simple reality is that demand has grown beyond the capacity of the current system to process applications in a timely way, and that has contributed to an unacceptable backlog of overdue applications. When we talk about a backlog, it is really important that we not lose sight of what that means. It means that behind every application is a child or a young person and their family, who have a very reasonable expectation that their application will be processed within the statutory timeframe. Unfortunately, however, that is not the reality for many families today, so there is a clear need to improve how the current system operates.  That is the context in which we bring forward this Bill. It is intended to modernise and strengthen the assessment of need process in order that it can operate more effectively and consistently in the face of growing demand. The changes are specific but important.  The first is to support a more needs-based approach to assessment. The Bill updates a number of terms used within the legislation to place greater emphasis on the restrictions a person experiences in their daily life and the needs arising from those restrictions, rather than focusing solely on disability as a diagnosis. That is an important shift because it brings our legislation more closely into line with Ireland's commitments under the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, CRPD. It also reflects the wider direction in which we are moving across disability, health and education services. Increasingly, the focus is on the individual and on what the person needs in order to participate fully in everyday life.  As this next part was queried by a number of Deputies earlier, I want to be very clear in saying that these changes do not alter a person's rights or entitlements under the Disability Act. What they do is better reflect the broader move towards understanding and responding to a person's individual needs. This change is only one part of improving the process. We also need to look at how the assessment of need process operates in practice and at the people responsible for delivering it.  In that regard, I acknowledge the important work carried out every day by HSE assessment officers and liaison officers. They play a vital role supporting children and families through what can be a complex process. They do that work against a backdrop of significant demand and pressure on the system. Given the scale of that demand, it is important that there are greater clarity and consistency about how the assessment of need process operates in practice for staff delivering it and for families engaging with it. That is why a key element of this Bill is the introduction of statutory guidelines for assessment officers. These guidelines will provide a clear framework for the assessment of need process and support a more consistent approach across the country. They will standardise key aspects of the process across all six health regions and provide greater clarity for assessment officers in carrying out their responsibilities. That consistency also matters for families and children. The experience of applying for assessment of need should not vary significantly depending on where a family needs or where an application is being processed. By providing for the publication of these guidelines by the HSE, the Bill will also give families a clearer understanding of the process, what they can expect from it and how their application will progress.  The Bill also deals with an issue that has become increasingly relevant as the number of applications has grown. Those are applications that are no longer being actively processed. This was raised by a number of Deputies in today's debate so I will elaborate. There can be many reasons that an application is no longer actively progressed. Family circumstances may have changed. They may decide they do not wish to continue with the process. They may simply just not be in a position to engage with it at that particular time. In many cases families may have relocated abroad or returned to their country of origin and are no longer in a position to continue with an assessment of need application in Ireland. The Bill therefore provides a clear basis for the withdrawal and closure of applications but importantly, as Deputy Toole referenced, it allows an application to be reinstated within 12 months. That is important because it is providing flexibility for families. I agree with Deputies who said that a decision to not continue with an assessment at one point in time should not create an unnecessary barrier if circumstances subsequently change. That is why the reinstatement provision is there. It provides a straightforward way back into the process and that is particularly relevant. At the same time, where an application is no longer active, such as where a family has moved abroad, the HSE needs to be able to reflect that accurately in the management of the overall caseload. That is important given the scale of the backlog we are dealing with. I appreciate that a number of Deputies raised concerns about provisions on deemed withdrawal, and I hope that explains the safeguards in place. As the Minister, Deputy Foley, outlined, the related regulations will set out the conditions that must be met before an application can be deemed to be withdrawn, and they provide for a clear and accessible process for reinstating an application if it is required.  I also want to be clear about what these provisions do not do. They do not remove the right to apply for an assessment of need. They do not remove the statutory timeframe. They do not change the underlying rights provided for in the principal Act. It is really important in understanding the scope of the Bill that we are clear on that. We are making targeted changes to improve the operation of the existing process. We are not suggesting that those changes on their own will address every issue within the Act or the Act more broadly. There are wider questions about the legislation that need to be considered and that work is under way through the broader review of the Disability Act 2005. That review gives us the opportunity to look at the Act as a whole more than 20 years after it was introduced to consider what further changes are required. A great deal has changed in that time and in Ireland's obligations following the ratification of the UNCRPD. This review will allow us to consider those issues properly and to ensure that our legislative framework reflects where we need to go next. Phase 1 of that consultation is open, and it will remain open until 9 October. I encourage people to take the opportunity to contribute. We are particularly interested in hearing from disabled people themselves, families, carers, representative organisations and DPOs.  A further point is important in the context of today's debate. We can improve the legislation around assessment of need, and we can improve the process. We need to do both. Neither of those things on their own answers the wider issue facing families, which is access to supports and services. That was raised by so many Deputies. An assessment of need has an important role but you do not need an assessment of need to access services. Many children are already receiving supports through primary care services, CDNTs or CAMHS while awaiting assessment of need. It is important to state that. It is also equally important that we do not underestimate what an assessment of need means to families. For many parents, it is about much more than completing a statutory process. It can provide clarity about their child's needs. It can provide formal recognition of those needs. After what can sometimes seem like a long period of uncertainty, that recognition matters. When families are waiting beyond the statutory timeframe, of course there is frustration and anxiety. That is why our response has to go further than addressing the assessment of need process alone. The real objective has to be a system where identifying a child's need leads to the right support being available at the right time. That requires progress across disability and health services, and across education. That is what we are committed to doing.  We are continuing to recruit additional staff to our CDNTs. Many Deputies have asked about that. The HSE single point of access model will be rolled out to make the route into services clearer for families, and the autism assessment and intervention pathway protocol will be implemented to support a more consistent and timely approach to autism assessment. There is also a really important piece of work happening in education. We are working with colleagues in the Department of education on a more needs-led approach to educational provision. This is where all the different strands of work come together. The assessment of need process needs to work better. The wider legislative framework needs to be reviewed. Ultimately, families will judge processes by their experience of the system and whether their child can get the support they need. That is the wider programme of reform of which this Bill is a part. I do not want to overstate what this legislation will achieve but I point out that this wider programme of reform is so important to ensure that we progress this issue for families and their children. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Disability (Amendment) Bill 2026: Second Stage"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-23\/debate\/dbsect_17","debateType":"debate","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/88","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/88\/dail\/motion\/referral","houseCode":"dail","stage":"motion","isBillStage":false,"showAs":"Disability (Amendment) Bill 2026: Referral to Select Committee (D\u00e1il)"}},"showAs":"Disability (Amendment) Bill 2026: Referral to Select Committee","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_17","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Emer Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Emer-Higgins.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Children, Disability and Equality (Deputy Emer Higgins)  I move:  That the Bill be referred to the Select Committee on Disability Matters pursuant to Standing Orders 103(2)( b ) and 188(1). "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Disability (Amendment) Bill 2026: Referral to Select Committee"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-23\/debate\/dbsect_18","debateType":"motion","bill":null,"showAs":"Defective Concrete Blocks Social Homes Scheme 2026: Motion","counts":{"speechCount":20,"speakerCount":14},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_18","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Mac Lochlainn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Charles Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Charles-Ward.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Charles-Ward.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Nicholas Gogarty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pat the Cope Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pat-the-Cope-Gallagher.D.1981-06-30","memberCode":"Pat-the-Cope-Gallagher.D.1981-06-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cormac Devlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cormac-Devlin.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cormac-Devlin.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage (Deputy James Browne)  I move:  That D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann approves the following scheme in draft:  Defective Concrete Blocks Social Homes Scheme 2026,  a copy of which has been laid in draft form before D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann on 7th August, 2026.  I welcome the opportunity to speak this afternoon on what is an important matter. As Deputies are aware, a defective concrete blocks grant scheme was put in place in 2020 to financially support affected homeowners in counties Donegal and Mayo, whose homes were impacted by defective concrete blocks. A number of improvements were brought forward under the Remediation of Dwellings Damaged by the Use of Defective Concrete Blocks Act 2022 and that commenced on 22 June 2023. I brought forward a number of additional significant improvements in 2025 via the amendment Act of 2025, and these included significant changes such as providing an opportunity for certain homeowners to apply for increased grants and the construction of adjacent dwellings in specific circumstances. Measures such as these are having an impact and real progress is being made. As of the end of August this year 604 homes had been remediated with a further 794 homes notifying their relevant designated local authority of the date of commencement of work to remediate their homes. Upon commencement in 2023, the current scheme was open to four local authority areas. As it stands today a further five local authority areas have been designated under the grant scheme, bringing the total number to nine counties, which are Donegal, Mayo, Clare, Limerick, Sligo and parts of the administrative areas of Wexford, Fingal and Meath county councils.  Another particularly important aspect of the 2022 Act is that it allows a scheme to be put in place by the Government to remediate social homes owned by local authorities and approved housing bodies where these homes are located in designated local authority areas. Upon making the scheme designated local authorities and approved housing bodies will be able to commence work to remediate damage caused to dwellings where the damage has been caused by the use of defective concrete blocks in their construction.  Section 36 of the 2022 Act provides that social homes will receive the same remediation options as those covered under the current defective concrete blocks grant scheme for private housing, and the same grant cap, grant rates and damage threshold requirements, thus any legislative changes to the 2022 Act will apply equally, where appropriate, to social homes affected by defective concrete blocks, as they do to private housing.  Prior to the drafting of the social homes scheme, my Department engaged in extensive consultation with designated local authorities, the Irish Council for Social Housing and a number of approved housing bodies, AHBs. The feedback received through this process helped to inform and shape the development of the draft scheme. Following the drafting of the scheme, my Department continues to have regular engagement with these bodies.  The draft social homes scheme replicates most of the defective concrete blocks grant scheme in its provisions. The scheme, in terms of content, is based on the current scheme for private homeowners, with appropriate amendments where necessary to reflect the slightly different nature of social housing.  There are some areas that differ from the private scheme, and the way the scheme would be operationalised in practice by local authorities has been the subject of careful consideration. The Housing Agency conducts all of the technical work under the current private scheme, but the agency will have no such role in the social scheme. Instead, the designated local authority or approved housing body will arrange the preparation of a building condition assessment report and engage a competent engineer to undertake a report in line with IS 465:2026. Furthermore, the designated local authority or approved housing body will engage a contractor to undertake the remediation works required. The designated local authority or approved housing body will seek recoupment of moneys it expends in remediating a dwelling directly from my Department.  Finally, the designated local authority or approved housing body will be obliged to rehouse tenants where necessary while an affected home is being remediated. This will be funded under the ancillary grant element of the scheme to a maximum amount of \u20ac16,500, exactly as per the current scheme. As Members are aware, on 2 June 2026 the new standard, IS 465:2026, was published. This standard replaced the previous standard, IS 465:2018. This publication requires a review of the operation of the Act, which has now been commenced. It is being carried out by my Department with the assistance of external expertise as necessary. Findings from this review may require changes to the current private scheme and any changes may also be brought to the social homes scheme in the future.  In February 2026, the County and City Management Association produced a revised estimate of the number of affected dwellings for private and social homes, and the Irish Council for Social Housing has also provided an estimate for approved housing bodies' dwellings. Using these estimates for the number of potentially impacted dwellings indicates a revised and social homes scheme cost of \u20ac3.1 billion, excluding inflation. It is estimated that there are just over 2,400 social housing units likely to be impacted by defective concrete blocks. Based on an average estimated remediation cost per unit of \u20ac300,000, the overall cost of the social scheme would be approximately \u20ac728 million, excluding inflation.  As Members are aware, a draft scheme was approved by the Government on 22 July 2026 and has since been laid before each House of the Oireachtas. In accordance with the legislative requirements, the scheme cannot be formally approved until a resolution approving the draft has been passed by both Houses. Subject to the approval of the Oireachtas, I intend to bring a memorandum to the Government seeking approval for making of the defective concrete blocks social homes scheme 2026. This will enable the scheme to be formally established and pave the way for the commencement of remediation works on affected social homes. I know that the local authorities have been preparing for some time with the assistance of my Department for what will mark the beginning of an important new phase in the defective concrete blocks remediation scheme. These preparatory works should ensure that works can begin in the coming months. I understand that some of the affected local authorities have already identified a number of specific homes in their housing stock where remediation can begin once the scheme is signed by the Government, allowing procurement to move ahead at pace. This initial batch of homes will then be in progress in 2027 and will allow the sector to learn from experience the optimum way to manage the process in a manner that, first and foremost, benefits their tenants.  The level of commitment shown by this Government to homeowners affected by defective concrete blocks is evident in the significant measures and supports that have been introduced in recent years. In principle, these relate to the funding that we have provided and the way we have extended the scope of the scheme as and when needed. More than \u20ac405 million has been spent on the scheme to date. Government funding for this work continues to be provided as and when required on an annual basis, with a record \u20ac175 million allocated to fund the scheme in 2026. That is more than double the amount allocated to the scheme last year and reflects an increase in the uptake in this grant scheme. This scheme represents a significant step forward, enabling the remediation of social housing stock impacted by defective concrete blocks, DCB, and allowing these essential works to begin in the near future.  I am anxious to move this programme forward and to see works commence on these homes at the earliest opportunity. I encourage each designated local authority to make full use of the resources available to them to ensure that affected homes are remediated promptly and to the highest possible standards. I would also encourage designated local authorities to co-ordinate their efforts to access other schemes and funding streams that are available and that can support the remediation of social homes. In particular, I urge them to adopt a co-ordinated approach with the Department's energy efficiency retrofit programme for social homes. This approach will help to deliver not only safe and sustainable homes but also long-term benefits for tenants through improved comfort, reduced energy consumption and lower household energy costs. It is now more important than ever that we further invest in a remediation of social housing stock.  I will conclude by thanking the local authorities and the Irish Council for Social Housing for working with officials in my Department in developing this important scheme. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin \u00d3 Broin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Eoin-\u00d3-Broin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin \u00d3 Broin  The tenants in local authority and approved housing bodies social housing stock impacted by defective concrete blocks have been waiting a very long time for this scheme. I have to say that, like its parent scheme, the Minister is making an absolute mess of it. The defective concrete blocks scheme is itself defective. The Minister should talk to homeowners in Donegal, Mayo, Clare and Fingal. They will tell him it is not 100% redress. They will also tell him that they are spending tens upon thousands of euro to fill the gap. In fact, many people are not applying at all. The latest figures from the Minister's own Department show very clearly that only 604 applicants of the tens of thousands of impacted homeowners have completed remediation works. The idea that he can just incorporate social housing into this defective scheme really shows he does not understand the scale of the problems.  What is worse is that local authorities and approved housing bodies have told the Minister and his officials that they have real concerns about what is in front of us. They are not at all clear about what costs are going to be covered. Will costs incurred to date be covered? Will preventative costs be covered? Will ancillary costs, non-construction costs and disposal costs be covered? The basic principle here is that local authorities should not have to come up with a single cent of money from their own resources to remediate these homes.  What about conjoined buildings? AHBs and local authorities, particularly in Donegal and Mayo, have many buildings attached that are not eligible under the DCB scheme, and there is no certainty here. It is the same with foundations. Again, this matter has not been resolved. Probably the worst element of this scheme is that the Minister is saying to the local authorities that they should rebuild the homes to the old standards. The reason that makes even less sense in a State scheme is because the State will ultimately have to pay additional money to bring those homes up to new standards, including of energy efficiency. If the Minister is going to do this right, and homes have to be demolished and rebuilt, he should build them to modern standards, because the State has to fund this cost anyway. I do not understand why the Minister did not just fund this through the normal social housing capital programme. Incorporating them into a grant scheme is simply ludicrous.  At a minimum, there is a very clear request from the local authorities and the AHBs for a working group comprising departmental officials, local authority officials and elected members from the affected counties. I would add tenants' representative bodies as well. It needs to be set up immediately to manage the scheme's implementation.  The local authorities and AHBs are not satisfied with this. We also need to have more Oireachtas scrutiny. We do not know the full details of what we are being asked to vote on here today, and meanwhile the overall scheme has to be fixed. I welcome the fact that a review has now started but there is no indication of whether there will be a public element to it. Will the public be invited to make submissions? Will there be some transparency around that? I urge the Minister to do that.  While we are not going to stand in the way of this motion today, could the Minister please not take that as endorsing what he is doing? He is making a terrible mess. We are asking him to reconsider and ensure that every local authority and AHB and, crucially, the tenants who live in their homes, have those homes remediated as a matter of urgency without the local authorities having to foot any portion of the bill. If the Minister does not do that, it will disincentivise remediation and homes will be left behind. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Mac Lochlainn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy P\u00e1draig Mac Lochlainn  The issue is that the Minister has been listening to the wrong people. He has been to Donegal and he has listened to some of the homeowners but he has been listening to the wrong people. I am genuine about this and I ask him to go back and engage with some of the affected homeowner groups and speak to more than just his own party colleagues in the county. The scheme is leaving huge numbers of people behind. The Minister and I know the reason he has not introduced a fully funded scheme, as he would have with any other local authority or approved housing body project, is because of the failings of the original scheme. The Minister knows that if he publicly announced a fully funded scheme for the local authorities he would expose that the primary scheme does not involve 100% redress.  If we took it as read that Donegal County Council, for example, would have to go ahead with this, the matched funding could potentially be \u20ac100 million. This is the reality because of the gap multiplied by the number of houses. The Minister is doing this at a time when we have a new standard. He is telling the local authorities not to test the concrete foundations even though the new standard says they should. He is telling them they could replace the outer leaf when the new standard says they cannot. It is actually in defiance of the science to go ahead with a new scheme based on what looks like the previous standard, which has been discredited.  The Minister has not consulted with the local authorities and approved housing bodies. This does not have their fingerprints on it. It is the Minister trying to match up with the existing scheme. He is making a huge mistake, as my colleague, Deputy \u00d3 Broin, has said. We cannot block this motion going through today as we are not going to stop money going to local authorities to move on with this but it is just wrong. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh  We have waited so long for this scheme and people in Mayo who are living in local authority houses desperately need it. They have waited for years for this scheme. This reminds me of when the original scheme came out and the action group sat in Erris and presented 20 things that would make that scheme right, affordable and fit for purpose and would provide 100% for people but the Government did not listen. It is absolutely critical that the Minister listens at this point to get this scheme right. As my colleagues have said, the Minister is speaking to the wrong people, or he certainly has not spoken to the people he needs to in relation to how this can be done and how it needs to be done.  There are issues such as resources. The Minister cannot leave local authorities with big gaps and no funding. There are issues such as how the testing will be done. At present, the testing is taking more than a year. Show us how this can be done in a short period of time. Show us how the builds can be completed to current standards and how they can be energy efficient. Otherwise we are on a hiding to nowhere. We desperately need this scheme but we desperately need to get it right and we need it to be fit for purpose.  We need to have proper accommodation for the tenants who have to move out of their homes. I am asking the Minister to work with us as a party, given all of the years of experience we have with the defective concrete blocks schemes, to at least get this one right. The other one is not 100% and people are being left with huge gaps or are locked out of it because they cannot afford to get into it. Do not keep making the same mistakes. Please do not keep making the same mistakes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Rory Hearne  I support what has been said, and the Social Democrats will not be opposing the motion. We will support what has been put forward on the basis that funding is going to local authorities and AHBs but not with regard to the way in which it has been done. There are serious gaps in what has been proposed and this is a pity because there really was an opportunity here to address the significant issues with defective buildings and social housing.  There are also particular issues here. Social housing tenants are particularly vulnerable and we are dealing with a situation whereby local authorities have been absolutely and completely underfunded. Look at the basic maintenance that is not being done in local authority housing. There is a disgraceful situation with Dublin City Council and other councils whereby tenants who are in poverty, living in mould and damp, have been forced to pay ever-higher rents because the Minister has failed to fund local authorities sufficiently to undertake the maintenance that is required. This cannot be an additional cost for local authorities and AHBs. They cannot be left out of pocket in addressing this issue.  Another issue that still has not been addressed is that those who are responsible for this have not been held to account. We still do not have this and it is absolutely incredible that the cost is to the taxpayer and to those people who live in the homes and the State has not actively sought out those responsible and penalised them appropriately. There is this issue of accountability and people being left off the hook. We know that in some situations the same developers are building new homes or engaging in some of the refurbishment that is required because of what happened in the first place. Of course a lack of accountability is a fundamental problem we have in the State when issues happen and the Government does not want to interfere with the market.  The scale of this is quite significant. There could be tens of thousands of social homes affected and local authorities and AHBs will be responsible for undertaking assessments, appointing engineers and rehousing tenants. These are significant tasks that local authorities will have to take on and they will need to be resourced properly. This cannot be taken from existing maintenance budgets. We want this commitment for the scheme.  Earlier the Minister mentioned the scheme being developed in negotiation with the various stakeholders. It is very clear that while he might have met them and spoken with them, he did not listen to them, similar to the rental legislation. The Irish Council for Social Housing, which represents AHBs, sets out clearly that it is very concerned that, for example, group homes are not included. Perhaps the Minister will give clarity on this. Will there be a full and retrospective grants process? Local authorities and AHBs cannot fund any shortfall in the defects remediation, particularly preventative works. What about rehousing tenants? The local authorities and AHBs also point out the need to bring together and co-ordinate the retrofitting programmes, what is being done and, where necessary, the need to rebuild homes. The necessary funding should be provided for this. They are also concerned, as has been raised, about the revised IS 465 standard and, in particular, the issue of addressing the building as a whole rather than simply assessing the above-ground block work. Will the Minister comment on whether this is going to be addressed? There is an issue with remediation being needed in the foundations and not only in the above-ground building itself.  I echo the call for, and ask the Minister to take on, the establishment of a working group comprising full stakeholder representation, including the Department, AHBs and local authorities, as well as engineers, surveyors and architects. This highlights why we should have a State construction company. If the Minister had the vision and courage to set up a State construction company, it could be working to address some of these issues rather than having to go out again to the private sector, which is supposed to be building new homes and will now also have to do this work. We have an issue with capacity and ensuring things are done right and done to a standard whereby we will not repeat these problems. It comes back to the point that the State has to have a role in directly building homes across this country, particularly social homes, so it can ensure that high-quality homes are delivered and that we can address issues such as retrofitting and defective blocks. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Conor Sheehan  The Labour Party will not stand in the Minister's way with regard to what he is doing here. The basic principle of what he is trying to do is welcome, in terms of extending this to social homes. The issue I have, as has been alluded to throughout the debate, is with the actual scheme itself. We know that more than 2,400 social homes are estimated to have been affected by defective concrete blocks.  This is an important step, but the issue I have is with the scheme itself, because it is fundamentally defective. It is a yellow-pack scheme. It is slow, bureaucratic and not 100% redress. My concern here is that we are going to have a situation where AHBs and councils are going to be left with significant funding gaps. That is something the Minister is going to have to address.  We have the issue, again, of foundations and foundation costs. The whole idea of potentially forcing a local authority to rebuild or repair a social home on top of a potentially defective, cracked foundation and transferring all that risk onto public infrastructure makes absolutely no sense. In the long term, that represents poor value and something that could potentially come back to haunt the State. I was reading the other day that Donegal County Council was saying it could cost up to \u20ac100 million to test, repair and replace the cracked or compromised foundations of 2,400 social homes.  We also have the issue of construction costs and the fact that these are based on information that is now a number of years out of date. We know we have since had inflation, instability and war in the Middle East. The issue I have here, and it goes back to what I was saying about the specifics of the scheme, is that the Minister's Department needs to find a way to guarantee that rent-paying council and AHB tenants will not be trapped for the medium to longer term in crumbling, unsafe housing schemes.  Additionally, when we are talking about this motion here tonight, we need to be aware and cognisant of the lessons learned from the experience of the private scheme. We are all, I think, aware of the problems we have seen there. I am concerned that we could be just transferring those problems onto social tenants.  Why has this taken so long? I ask this because since the initial scheme was introduced three years ago, we have seen a piecemeal approach to tweaking, plugging gaps and addressing issues, and progress has been slow and painful. While, in many ways, the Government is inching in the right direction, it is not moving anywhere near what is actually needed, which is an end-to-end scheme based on the model of the Fingal pyrite scheme. The Government can inch towards it and chip away at this and that, but we will be here twice a year, every year, for eternity, although, please God, I will not be here that long, and we still will not have a scheme that will be fit for purpose. If we look at the figures at the end of August for the private scheme, 604 homes had completed remediation. That is a fraction of the true level of need, and it is an indictment of where the scheme is going wrong.  I also have concerns about whether councils and approved housing bodies will have the funding and the staffing required, as well as the capacity and expertise to administer the workload that they will be required to carry out under this scheme. If we are talking about 2,400 homes, it is really incumbent on the Government and the Department to make sure that local authorities have the resources to do it properly. The fundamental issue remains with the scheme. The fact of the matter is that the scheme leaves families, and in this case, local authorities as well, carrying the can for the financial and structural risk incurred because homes were built using defective concrete through failures in regulation and failures in oversight.  Local authorities and AHBs are worried that this scheme will leave them to try to carry the can for another mess, one they did not make, and that they will be underfunded in trying to clear the mess up. If that happens, we are going to have social home tenants left in unsafe housing that they fear will fall down around them. It is not acceptable that anyone in a defective home, built using material that they were conned into believing was of an appropriate, safe standard, should be left with their home falling down around them.  The fundamental issue with both the private and the social schemes is that a fully funded way of rebuilding unsafe homes in a timely and effective manner is not provided. I am not going to vote against what the Government is doing tonight because I believe it is better than what it is not doing at the moment. However, I have a number of concerns, as I have outlined, and I am very reluctant to stand here and endorse what is being done because I believe that the scheme, as it stands, is fundamentally defective.  We need a system that guarantees genuine end-to-end redress, gives tenants and homeowners confidence that their homes are safe and does not force traumatised families and communities to keep coming up here, banging on the door and campaigning for their homes to be made safe. We have been here before and we will be here again. We need assurances that the resources, safeguards and ambition required to deliver on this scheme will be put in place. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Charles Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Charles-Ward.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Charles-Ward.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Charles Ward  I will be voting for this motion tonight, but I am disappointed with it because there was a chance to get this right. There is a standard currently under review. We could have waited, got everything tied up and got everything out. I know we have it now and we have to go on.  As of April, 3,150 households in Donegal were waiting for social housing. Given the ongoing housing crisis and sustained demand, that number will almost certainly rise in the coming months. At the same time, potentially, 2,400 social homes are affected by defective concrete. I say potentially because I suspect there are a lot more. Thousands are waiting for a home while existing homes are at risk of being lost. This is a contradiction because social housing supply is an issue, and we cannot afford to get this wrong like we have done in the past with the two schemes that have failed.  At a meeting my Oireachtas colleagues and I had with Donegal County Council on Monday, we were told that 174 homes have been completed this year and approximately 260 were completed last year. If we look at those figures, we would be talking about 200 or 300 years to get through this scheme. We need to ramp it up. Otherwise, we are risking creating a second waiting list for people who already have homes and who are watching them crumble and waiting to get out to get them remediated.  Governance is another issue. Who checks those who are fixing the problem? The National Building Control and Market Surveillance Office audited construction products and Donegal quarries, working with Donegal County Council and Geological Survey Ireland, GSI. In this day and age, the audit identified non-compliance with three quarries. This is a governance issue. Donegal County Council will have to deliver remediation. The Housing Agency has a central technical role to play in this and then the Department sets up the framework. The State cannot mark its own homework here. There must be independent oversight and engineering standards so that conflicts of interest will show up. Quality has to be checked, and that is what the issue will be going forward.  The most important person in this is the tenant. The tenant is central to this. A social tenant may depend on an engineer to engage with this scheme but neither should be expected to second-guess professional advice. A social tenant does not own the property or control what happens but if it is to be vacated, remediated or replaced, they are going to be uprooted, and this is something that they did not cause.  This means there will be an impact on schools, neighbours, family supports and communities built over years. They may not own the house but they own the life that is inside that house. Every affected tenant deserves clear information, a named contact about what is going to happen next and an independent route to raise his or her concerns.  A council house is not as asset for a spreadsheet; it is somebody's home.  Engineering must remain engineering. The draft provides that the Minister will be notified of option one engineering recommendations and may request supporting evidence. If engineering advice supports option one, the engineer must be free to recommend it. There is oversight of the engineer, with someone looking over his or shoulder to make sure he or she does the right thing and gives the right option. In fact, there is only one option: if the house is affected, it should be pulled down. It should be option one all the way. Any review should be clear, with well-defined criteria, a timeframe and recognition of technical bias. Where disputes arise, independent technical reviews should be available. The engineer decides what the building requires, and the funding and framework must be part of that decision. The same principle applies to foundations.  IS 465:2026 has now been published. The Housing Agency has said the revised standard provides a more comprehensive understanding of the affected homes. The Minister has commented on statutory reviews of the standard, yet this is excluded in the social homes scheme. All of this should have been tied up together, as I said, but, instead, we are still waiting. Donegal County Council cannot go ahead with the 80 homes it has because the money is not there to do the foundations. If this were done correctly, the council would be able to proceed.  If an investigation is needed, we must investigate. If remediation is required, the scheme must fund it. The funding rules must focus on the engineer's solution. That is a priority. Concrete does not know who owns a house. The same concrete means the same science, and the response must follow the science.  There is also a professional integrity issue. Ethics concerns have been raised regarding engineers and firms operating in this area. Where an engineering determination affects whether someone remains in his or her home, due diligence must apply. Conflict of interest safeguards, professional accountability and an independent route to challenge determinations are vital as we go forward. Public confidence requires confidence in the system behind an engineering report to ensure that report stands up to scrutiny.  I am asking the Minister for three things. First, there must be independent governance of the social homes scheme, with clear responsibility across the Department, the Housing Agency and local authorities, along with independent scrutiny. The second requirement is protection of engineers' independence. Rules governing option one review must be clear and must not discharge the evidence based on engineers' determinations. Where a determination is disputed, an independent technical review must be available. Third, we need a review of the inclusion of foundations in IS 465:2026. If engineering evidence says foundations associated with ground works are necessary, then a scheme must deliver them.  The thought always must be with the tenant. That is vital into the future. We have 3,150 households waiting on social homes. We have existing tenants waiting to know whether their homes can be made safe. We cannot fail either of those groups, which amount to more than 5,000 households in Donegal. The State owns the building but the tenants own the life that exists inside that building.  We must let the engineer determine what is required and let the funding follow. The engineers should be allowed to get on with their jobs. The process must be overseen by independent governance. When the State tells tenants their home is safe, that assurance must be properly tested. We do not need another waiting list and another waiting game. We have waited long enough. We need the promise of a safe home for people.  More than 50,000 homes will have to be built in Donegal in the next 20 to 30 years. Right now, we are proceeding at less than 2% capacity. We need to look at an OPW model for building homes in Donegal. It would be revolutionary. It can be done but the Government must have belief in it, which it does not right now. It is leaving it to the market, and the market is not doing any favours for homeowners in Donegal. There are contractors doing it right but there also are contractors doing it wrong. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Lawless  I very much welcome the extension of this support to affected tenants of social housing. I have spoken to constituents in Mayo whose houses are in a shockingly bad state. Having engaged with the council, there really was nothing that could be done because they fell outside the previous scheme. The change is very welcome. There should be no difference in treatment between tenants in social homes and tenants in the private rental sector and, indeed, people who own their home, but it is fair to say there was a difference in treatment for a number of years. I certainly welcome the Minister's proposal but I urge him to prioritise the rehousing of tenants and ensuring they are looked after during this time.  I understand the Housing Agency will not be involved in the scheme. There may be some advantages to that in terms of efficiencies and so on but I have no doubt that will come with some additional burdens for local authorities. Therefore, it is very important that councils' resources are sufficient to deal with the scheme. There are some very good officials in Mayo County Council working very diligently on this, including Ms Clodagh Gleeson in the Swinford office, whose team has done Trojan work. I urge the Minister to make sure the resources are there at local authority level to engage in all the work that has to be done. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Nicholas Gogarty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Nicholas Gogarty  I join other speakers in welcoming that 2,400 social housing units are being brought into the scheme. It is an entirely necessary, if somewhat delayed, move. However, as colleagues also mentioned, the proposal, in its current form, basically creates a two-tier system that again treats social housing tenants as second-class citizens. We saw that in the quality of construction of some social homes, with levels of insulation being historically of inferior construction and design, although that has improved in more recent times. While private homeowners are still not getting the 100% redress they want, they will be able to avail of the independent technical review mechanisms.  However, local authority tenants will not have the same safeguard. Private owners who dispute an engineering assessment have some way of appealing it and challenging decisions. Unfortunately, the poor social housing tenants do not have that ability. While I can see why this would be organised by approved housing body or on an estate-by-estate basis, rather than by individual tenants, the latter should still be able to have a voice. They are living in, or are unable to live in, conditions that are absolutely substandard. If they want to challenge some sort of remediation works that have been outlined, they cannot do so individually. They are supposed to accept whatever the council decides. As I have seen, when planning and rezoning proposals are foisted on people with no infrastructure provision guaranteed, council officials are often inclined not necessarily to do the bidding of the Government but certainly not to be seen to fight back against it, at least not in the public eye. In that context, we need the same type of guaranteed technical oversight for social housing tenants as is proposed for private homeowners. There are only 2,400 social housing units involved at the outset but perhaps there should be a representative expert people can call upon or some other means of giving them a stake in this. The people living in social houses are stakeholders even if they do not have legal ownership rights.  In introducing this scheme, the Government is trying to move towards parity between private owners and social housing tenants. However, as Deputy Charles Ward has said time and again, there is no point in giving redress unless it is 100% redress. Private homeowners are not getting what they absolutely need and people in public sector housing are getting even less.  It is not parity. The situation is that those in private households can possibly better afford top-up loans, whereas people who live in AHB or council homes cannot do that in order to get the final bits done. Will the likes of the county councils in Donegal, Mayo or the other counties where issues have been identified find the requisite additional funding to bridge gaps? That is, of course, if they are in a position to identify those gaps in the first place. This needs to be revisited to make sure that any queries that are genuinely raised by people can and are seen to be addressed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pat the Cope Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pat-the-Cope-Gallagher.D.1981-06-30","memberCode":"Pat-the-Cope-Gallagher.D.1981-06-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pat the Cope Gallagher  I welcome the defective concrete blocks social scheme 2026. This is the first opportunity for those who have been living in affected council houses in recent years. They did not have an opportunity to have remedial works carried out to their houses, so it is a welcome development.  Officials from my county and other counties met the Minister's officials and members of the council in recent months. It is obvious that the views of local authority members and officials were taken into consideration when the scheme was formulated. I have to make it clear that it is my view that these works should be fully funded. Under no circumstances could I accept Donegal County Council having to part- or fully fund these schemes because if they did, it would an imposition on the ratepayers and the council and other capital schemes that require co-funding would be affected. In short, it is my strongly held view that the works must be fully funded.  There are approximately 1,900 council houses in Donegal and 80 are shovel ready. I hope work on them will start quickly.  The difference between the other scheme and this one is that the Housing Agency carries out all the technical works under the current private scheme, whereas on this occasion the designated local authority or approved housing body will engage a competent engineer to produce a building condition assessment report. It will be more streamlined.  Unfortunately, time does not permit me to say any more. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  I appreciate that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cormac Devlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cormac-Devlin.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cormac-Devlin.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cormac Devlin  I welcome the motion. For families in Donegal, Mayo and seven other council areas, defective blocks have meant cracked walls, crumbling homes and years of uncertainty. Until now, social housing sat outside the scheme. Council and housing body tenants will now get the same remediation options, the same grant cap and the same grant rates as private owners. That is fair and it is overdue.  As winter approaches, there is a need to highlight the issue of council tenants living in cold homes that need retrofitting. Under the energy efficiency retrofitting programme works, more than 11,000 council homes have been deep retrofitted since 2021, which is welcome. This year, the Minister secured \u20ac140 million for 3,500 more, which I welcome. However, it must be noted that the pace is too slow. The target is 36,500 homes by 2030. At this year's rate, we will not reach that target until 2033. In my constituency of D\u00fan Laoghaire-Rathdown, the gap is stark. Much of the council stock was built between the 1930s and the 1980s before the State had national building regulations. As a result, many of those homes were built with no insulation at all. The council got \u20ac4.2 million to retrofit 100 homes, but tenants in Sallynoggin, Mounttown, Ballybrack, Loughlinstown and Shankill are told year after year that their homes are not on the list. The council says it depends on central funding. My request of the Minister is that in budget 2027 he increase the allocation to deliver around 5,500 homes per year, which is the pace the 2030 target demands and give councils multi-annual allocations, in order that they can plan to do estates and not operate year by year. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Crowe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cathal-Crowe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cathal Crowe  Many homeowners in County Clare who are affected by defective concrete blocks are looking at us to deliver fairness, clarity and a scheme that fully works for them. While I absolutely welcome the progress made with the new IS 465 standard, which finally allows for the scientific testing of foundations - that was a crucial step - the reality is that testing alone cannot fix a home. Families are currently left in a difficult limbo where science acknowledges that the foundations of their homes are compromised, but the funding legislation has not yet caught up. As the statutory review progresses, we must ensure foundation remediation is fully funded so people are not asked to rebuild on unsafe ground.  I wish to bring to the Minister's attention a frustrating bureaucratic anomaly that is causing genuine distress for families trying to navigate all this process. One arm of the State requires homeowners to provide a full, detailed valuation of their property for the purpose of calculating local property tax; yet when it comes to the remediation scheme, the parameters are not always factored in for the whole house or the true, comprehensive cost of returning a family to a complete home. We need a joined up approach. If the State looks at the whole value of the house for calculating tax, the remediation scheme should protect the integrity of the whole house as well.  We must look at ultimate financial accountability. In many D\u00e1il debates in the past, it was said the State would take a landmark legal action against the people who manufactured and sold these concrete blocks. We would like to know where that is because this scheme is funded by the taxpayers of Ireland and, ultimately, we need to be going after and penalising those who sold defective blocks.  I am aware of the Minister's commitment to resolving this crisis. He has been forthright about that, which is appreciated. I urge him to use the current review to iron out the anomalies I outlined, including in respect of foundations, and to deliver the comprehensive solution the people in my county, Clare, deserve. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Danny Healy-Rae  I am glad to have the opportunity to talk about this matter, as I have done many times in the past. I welcome that the social houses in Donegal that are damaged will have a scheme to replace them. I cannot understand why it has taken so long and why we are only at this now. Clearly, this must have happened at the same time as the private houses.  Like Deputy Gallagher, I insist that the Department of housing cover the cost in full. It cannot be left to the local authorities to do so. As has been pointed out, they do not have the wherewithal to raise funding to make up any matching difference. There is no question about that. The Government must fund the replacement of these houses in full. I ask the Government to do so in the most expedient way possible to ensure that people will not be upset or disenfranchised in the tumble-down houses they are living in at present. We all remember Bridie Gallagher singing \"The Homes of Donegal\". It is clear that many people in their homes in Donegal are not happy. We hope that they will be and that it will not take long to address the problem.  Certainly, we are doing a lot of talking here about the defective concrete blocks in Donegal, Mayo and different places. It is time the Government got a handle on and dealt with the matter. The country is awash with money. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Thank you, Deputy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Danny Healy-Rae  We were able to give \u20ac2 billion - to borrow it, in fact - to keep the war between Ukraine and Russia going. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  The Minister to respond. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Danny Healy-Rae","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Danny-Healy-Rae.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Danny Healy-Rae  We borrowed \u20ac2 billion for that but we cannot look after the homes in Donegal. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Thank you, Deputy. Minister, please. You might sing the song. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Browne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"James-Browne.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage (Deputy James Browne)  I thank Deputies across the House for their contributions to this important debate. The motion before the House seeks approval for the social homes scheme for designated local authorities and approved housing bodies affected by defective concrete blocks. To be clear, I acknowledge the pressures Donegal County Council in particular is under regarding this matter. I have committed my Department to working hand in glove with Donegal County Council on it. The Department acknowledges the financial challenges at play, but we will ensure the council is supported as necessary on this matter and will continue to actively engage with it.  This scheme represents a significant investment in supporting the remediation of social homes owned by local authorities and approved housing bodies affected by defective concrete blocks. It is an important step in protecting our social housing stock, supporting tenants and ensuring communities can continue to grow and develop in the future. I understand and appreciate the impact that defective concrete blocks have had on those directly affected. I have heard the very real stories from homeowners, tenants and families living with the challenges caused by this issue. I have been to Donegal, the county most affected, on a number of occasions.  These experiences highlighted the importance of putting in place effective measures to address this issue and to provide the support that is required. As I noted in my opening remarks, the Government remains firmly committed to supporting those affected by defective concrete blocks. We have already provided significant funding through the private housing scheme, demonstrating our determination to assist homeowners. The issue of defective concrete blocks is a complex one that the Government is actively addressing. Through this social homes scheme, we are now building on our commitments to ensure that designated local authorities and approved housing body homes affected by defective concrete blocks can also be remediated and restored. We will continue to work closely with local authorities and stakeholders to ensure that the affected social homes are remediated and that tenants are supported throughout the process. As I mentioned at the outset, it is estimated that just over 2,400 social housing units are likely to be impacted by defective concrete blocks. Each designated local authority will be encouraged to take every appropriate step using all available resources to ensure that affected homes are remediated effectively.  Today, we have an opportunity to take a practical and positive step forward. By supporting this motion, the House can send a clear message that we are committed to introducing a scheme to support the remediation of these homes. I therefore commend the motion to the House and ask Members to support its approval. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Defective Concrete Blocks Social Homes Scheme 2026: Motion"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-23\/debate\/dbsect_19","debateType":"motion","bill":null,"showAs":"Council of the European Union Decision: Motions","counts":{"speechCount":10,"speakerCount":5},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_19","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cormac Devlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cormac-Devlin.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cormac-Devlin.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Before I call on the Minister to open the debate, I remind Members that there are two separate motions being debated in this slot: the motion regarding the proposed approval by D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann for a Council decision on the signing of the agreement between the European Union and the Republic of Korea; and the motion regarding the proposed approval by D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann for a Council decision on the conclusion of the agreement between the European Union and the Republic of Korea on passenger name record data. The motions will be moved separately but will be debated together. They will be decided by separate questions. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Justice, Home Affairs and Migration (Deputy Jim O'Callaghan)  I move:  That D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann approves the exercise by the State of the option or discretion under Protocol No. 21 on the position of the United Kingdom and Ireland in respect of the area of freedom, security and justice annexed to the Treaty on European Union and to the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, to take part in the adoption and application of the following proposed measure:  Proposal for a Council Decision on the signing of the Agreement between the European Union and the Republic of Korea on the transfer of Passenger Name Record (PNR) data for the prevention, detection, investigation and prosecution of terrorist offences and serious crime,  a copy of which was laid before D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann on 24th August, 2026.  As the Ceann Comhairle indicated, I am seeking the approval of D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann to opt into two proposals for Council decisions to sign and conclude an agreement between the European Union and the Republic of Korea, also known as South Korea, on the transfer of passenger name record, PNR, data.  The proposals have two main aims. The first relates to the necessity of ensuring public security by means of exchanging PNR data between the EU and the Republic of Korea. The second relates to the protection of privacy and other fundamental rights and freedoms of individuals. The proposed Council decisions have a Title V legal basis in the area of police co-operation. Their publication on 24 July 2026 started the three-month window for Ireland to exercise an Article 3 opt-in under Protocol 21 annexed to the Lisbon Treaty. This window ends on 24 October 2026.  The collection and analysis of PNR data is a widely used law enforcement tool in the EU and in other countries for the prevention, detection, investigation and prosecution of terrorist offences and serious crime. PNR data is the booking information provided by passengers and collected by air carriers for their own commercial purposes, including names, dates of travel or travel itineraries. The collection and analysis of PNR data can provide the authorities with important elements, allowing them to detect suspicious travel patterns and identify associates of criminals and terrorists, particularly those previously unknown to law enforcement authorities.  The use of PNR data is governed by the EU PNR directive, which was transposed into national law via the European Union (Passenger Name Record) Regulations 2018. The Irish passenger information unit within my Department is the body responsible for processing PNR data in Ireland. No legal or practical impediment precluding Ireland from opting in to these proposals has been identified by the Attorney General's office.  Deputies will recall that the Oireachtas gave approval to an Article 3 opt-in to the negotiation of this agreement in November of last year. Today, I am simply asking them to approve Ireland's participation in the final negotiated agreement once it enters into operation. Deputies will recall that we have already opted into similar EU PNR agreements with other third countries such as Canada, Australia, the United States and, indeed, the United Kingdom. We have also entered into agreements with Schengen associated countries such as Norway, Iceland and, most recently, Switzerland. In operational and policy terms, it is considered desirable that Ireland exercise an Article 3 opt-in to these proposals, so I commend these proposals to the House to consider the exercise of Ireland's right to opt in under Article 3 of Protocol 21 and seek the approval of the motion to participate in these Council decisions to sign and conclude the agreement. I will conclude by stating that I moved these motions in Seanad \u00c9ireann last night, where all parties agreed to support this opt-in. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Matt Carthy  Cuirim f\u00e1ilte roimh an deis labhairt ar an tairiscint seo. Ard\u00f3idh m\u00e9 roinnt nithe gaolmhara leis an Aire. As I have stated repeatedly in this House, proposals to opt into measures under Protocol 21 should always be subject to careful consideration. While Sinn F\u00e9in is not opposed to this proposal and believes it is appropriate to opt in on this occasion, it is important to recognise that Ireland's national interests must always take precedence over wider EU considerations. In relation to matters governing the areas of freedom, security and justice, Protocol 21 provides Ireland with the important flexibility to opt in or to opt out on the basis of our national interests and the necessity of protecting Irish sovereignty. There should be no dilution of what the protocol represents and there should be no drift towards a position where opting in becomes almost automatic. If that were to happen, it would undermine an important protection that was secured as part of the Lisbon treaty.  Sinn F\u00e9in has previously supported motions for Ireland to participate in the adoption and application of passenger name record agreements between the EU and a number of third countries. We also supported Ireland's decisions to opt into negotiations on this agreement with Korea. The sharing of PNR data is an important tool in the prevention, detection, investigation and prosecution of serious crime and terrorist offences, including drug trafficking and human trafficking. It forms part of the broader framework for managing borders. International co-operation in tackling organised crime is essential and the sharing of this information is an important component of that effort.  It would be appropriate and helpful if the Minister could provide an update on whether consideration has been given to extending the PNR requirements to ferry travel, as I have asked for on a number of occasions. Given that the purpose of PNR data sharing is to assist in preventing, detecting, investigating and prosecuting serious crimes and offences, it makes little sense that equivalent requirements do not apply to ferry passengers. It arguably creates a potential gap that may actually encourage those seeking to evade PNR monitoring to opt for ferry travel instead.  I will also take the opportunity afforded by this debate on passenger name recognition data to raise a number of related issues with the Minister. While PNR data is collected, there are significant gaps relevant to the management of migration in terms of entry and exit. Even though PNR data is considered part of the framework of managing borders, particularly in terms of serious crime, the data is not actually used for migration purposes. The reality is that there are huge gaps in terms of publicly available information regarding the information collected. In some cases, data is not collected. In other cases, it is not collated in a way that allows for proper scrutiny. This includes information on those who overstay legal permissions and accurate data on individuals subject to deportation orders, where assumptions are often made that people have left the State despite no verification whatsoever that this is, in fact, the case.  I have asked the Minister a number of times about how many of those who entered the State legally, whether it be on education, work or tourist permits, subsequently went on to overstay their visas or to make international protection applications. To date, he has not been in a position to provide any information in that regard. Such information is crucial to our understanding of how people who seek international protection enter the State. Equally, we have no way of knowing whether the percentages often cited by Ministers regarding the proportion of international protection applicants who entered the State from Britain via the North are accurate, given that we do not have the detail on those who entered legally and who go on to make applications for international protection. It is clear that the most effective way to manage migration and accurately track entry and exit movements would be on an all-Ireland basis. That is how we can protect our national interests, protect our sovereignty and safeguard the common travel area. This approach would be far more effective than the decision, for example, to sign up to the EU migration and asylum pact in its entirety that takes no account of the fact that the common travel area exists at all or that we have a unique circumstance as an EU member state on an island that is partitioned or that part of the island is operating outside of the EU against the democratic wishes of its people.  As an island, Ireland has unique advantages when it comes to managing migration on a fair and an understandable basis that can build public confidence. However, we are not capitalising on those advantages. I again ask the Minister whether he and his Department have given consideration to moving towards a system of migration management based on monitoring entry and exit to the island of Ireland as a whole, whether his Department has examined the establishment of an island-wide entry and exit system and whether there have been any discussions with the British authorities on this. The logic of that type of approach will make sense to most people. In fact, investment in such a system would make absolute sense in the longer term because an all-Ireland exit and entry registration system modelled on the EU Schengen system to allow for checks on individuals entering and leaving the island at ports and airports would allow for a much better streamlined migration management system. It would ensure that we have improved data collection, as well as allowing both administrations, North and South, and Ireland and Britain to cater for those who are in genuine need of international protection. Does the Minister accept the logic of this approach? It is important that we recognise the potential benefits that it could bring in ensuring that we have an accurate picture at all times as to who is entering and leaving and who is on the island of Ireland.  If the Minister has time, I ask him to provide an update on the progress that has been made regarding a bilateral returns agreement with Britain. I have raised this on a number of occasions. It would be helpful if he could provide an update on any discussions that he has had with his British counterparts. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Gary Gannon  Our party will support Ireland opting into the Council decision on signing the conclusion of the agreement between the European Union and the Republic of Korea on the transfer of passenger name record data. Co-operation in the fight against serious crime and terrorism is clearly necessary, and we realise the important role that data plays in supporting investigations into serious crime and terrorism. Ireland already participates in similar PNR agreements with the United States, the United Kingdom and Australia. South Korea has also had an EU data protection adequacy decision since 2021, which is an important consideration when assessing the protections that will apply to European citizens' data. As I have said ad nauseam when discussing the PNR arrangements in this House, support for the agreement should not mean that we should not mean that we stop scrutinising how these systems operate. The Government's briefing acknowledges that the transfer and use of PNR data by a third country constitutes an interference with the fundamental rights of EU citizens. That is important to note. We are talking about the large-scale processing and transfer of personal information overwhelmingly to ordinary people who are suspected of absolutely nothing. European courts have repeatedly made clear that systems of this nature must be accompanied by meaningful and enforceable safeguards that should mean limitations around the purposes for which information can be used, proper limits on retention and independent oversight.  I ask the Minister to ensure that Ireland continues to monitor the operation of this agreement and that as these arrangements develop, fundamental rights and data protection remain central to our participation. There is a broader principle here, which brings me to something that relates to the Minister. Safeguards are only meaningful if the institutions responsible for enforcing them can be trusted to do so. In that regard, it has been over a week since the \"RT\u00c9 Investigates\" programme concerning the treatment of protected disclosures within An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. The Minister spoke on RT\u00c9 1 earlier. He has not yet addressed the D\u00e1il on the many questions that Members have. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  I am afraid that it is not relevant to the motions. I am sorry. It is not appropriate for the Minister to comment at this time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Gary Gannon  I can explain the relevance. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  I appreciate that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Gary Gannon  I will explain it. In Ireland, PNR data is collected and analysed by the passenger information unit within the Department of justice. This House has been asked to place confidence in systems for handling sensitive information in the interest of policing and public safety and questions about the integrity of those systems, the protection of confidential information and the accountability when safeguards fail are entirely relevant. Within that, safeguards in the Garda protected disclosure unit have clearly failed. I ask the Minister to come before the House and address the various questions that are outstanding. If the Minister could confirm that he is prepared to do that, I would be grateful. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cormac Devlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cormac-Devlin.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cormac-Devlin.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cormac Devlin  I support the motions. This agreement lets airlines share booking data with the Republic of Korea in order to fight terrorism and serious crime. Korea is the first Asian country to agree such a deal with the European Union. The safeguards are strong. PNR data, as the Minister outlined, is depersonalised after six months, held for five years at most and passed on only with independent approval. Opting in also lets Korea share its findings with our passenger information unit and with Europol. These motions form one part of a wider effort to secure our borders, and the Minister deserves credit for this. He is extending our own passenger data checks to flights within the EU.  Since 12 June, every new applicant for protection is being screened with identity, security and biometric checks and the law is being enforced. Last year, 4,700 deportation orders were signed - almost double the year before. This year, 3,381 have been signed up to 18 September. The progress on processing has also been sped up. Early last year, a standard case waited a median of 18 months for a first decision. In 2025, the International Protection Office issued more than 20,000 first decisions, up from 13,000 the year before. The new International Protection Act sets six months for a standard case, and three months for accelerated and border cases. Since the pact began, average daily applications have fallen from 53 to 32. Irish people are generous. They want a system that is fair, fast and firm. I welcome the Minister\u2019s efforts to deliver progress and, indeed, to reform the system. I also welcome the motions. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Justice, Home Affairs and Migration (Deputy Jim O'Callaghan)  I thank the three Deputies for their contributions. I welcome that all parties in the House are supporting the opt-in to the proposal in terms of the signing and execution of the agreement between the European Union and the Republic of Korea. It is clearly the case that PNR data is extremely important in combating serious crime. When we look at the agreements with third countries that have been opted into by Ireland, we can see that it is effective for us to ensure that we are at the forefront of combating such crime.  Deputy Carthy referred to how what is proposed will apply to ferries. He is correct in stating that it only applies to air travel passengers at present. Obviously, neither I nor Ireland can, of our own accord, decide that we are going to extend it to boats or maritime travel. That requires an agreement by the European Union and a measure being put in place by the European Union. The European Commission has published feasibility studies that examine the possible use of advanced passenger information from land and maritime travel operators. Ireland does not have the applicable long-distance rail or road routes. We will continue to monitor developments on maritime travel arising from these studies. The Commission may make proposals in the future following the evaluation of the current PNR directive. It would be appropriate that we extend it to maritime travel.  Deputy Carthy also spoke about a PNR not being available for migration. That is correct; it is only available for the investigation of serious offences, terrorist offences. If I was here saying that PNR data was going to be used for the purpose of migration, I suspect it would not have the level of agreement that we have in the House in respect of the PNR data.  I agree with the Deputy that it would be much easier for me, as Minister for justice, to manage migration and immigration into Ireland if we had a united island. The practicality of it is we do not. Because there are two jurisdictions on the island and because we all want there to be an open border between those two jurisdictions, it means that people can come and go freely. That is the way it is and there is nothing that can be done in respect of that. I agree with him that if we had a reunified Ireland, it would be easier for everyone North and South to be able to manage migration in the way that other countries such as Australia are able to manage it.  The Deputy referred to the returns agreement. I will be meeting the British Home Secretary on Saturday. I have spoken to her on many occasions. The issue of returns is an item that will be on the agenda. However, when we look at the statistics that have arisen since we signed up to the International Protection Act which commenced on 12 June, there has been a significant reduction in the number of people claiming asylum in Ireland. I will give the Deputy the statistics. For the first six months of this year, over 1,000 people applied for international protection in Ireland in each month with the exception of March when it was 920. For the other five months it was over 1,000. In July it was 722, in August it was 756 and for this month up to 20 September it is 496. Since the International Protection Act, or the migration pact as the Deputy calls it, commenced on 12 June, the numbers coming in have reduced. It shows that the only way to effectively respond to illegal or irregular migration is through international co-operation.  I also thank Deputy Gannon for his support. I have no difficulty coming into the D\u00e1il to talk about protected disclosures. This has been said. There is Government time and there is Opposition time. If he wants to use Social Democrats time to discuss it, I will be here. I do not know if I will be here on Wednesday and Thursday of next week because I have European commitments. However, if he tables it on Tuesday, I will be here. Part of the issue with projected disclosures is - this is not a makey-uppy issue - section 16 of the Act states that it is a criminal offence for a person to whom a protected disclosure is made to reveal the identity of the person making it. That applies even if the person has decided to reveal their own identity. The only exception is if I have the explicit consent of the individual concerned. That is something I am looking at in light of an interview that took place yesterday. I am seeking legal advice in respect of it. I am happy to give as much information as I can. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Council of the European Union Decision: Motions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-23\/debate\/dbsect_20","debateType":"motion","bill":null,"showAs":"Agreement between the European Union and the Republic of Korea on Passenger Name Record Data: Motion","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_20","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Justice, Home Affairs and Migration (Deputy Jim O'Callaghan)  I move:  That D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann approves the exercise by the State of the option or discretion under Protocol No. 21 on the position of the United Kingdom and Ireland in respect of the area of freedom, security and justice annexed to the Treaty on European Union and to the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, to take part in the adoption and application of the following proposed measure:  Proposal for a Council Decision on the conclusion of the Agreement between the European Union and the Republic of Korea on the transfer of Passenger Name Record (PNR) data for the prevention, detection, investigation and prosecution of terrorist offences and serious crime,  a copy of which was laid before D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann on 24th August, 2026. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Agreement between the European Union and the Republic of Korea on Passenger Name Record Data: Motion"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-23\/debate\/dbsect_21","debateType":"debate","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/14","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/14\/dail\/2","houseCode":"dail","stage":"2","isBillStage":true,"showAs":"Waste Management (Single Household Waste Collection Service) Bill 2026: Second Stage (Resumed) [Private Members] (D\u00e1il)"}},"showAs":"Waste Management (Single Household Waste Collection Service) Bill 2026: Second Stage (Resumed) [Private Members]","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_21","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  I must now deal with a postponed division relating to Second Stage of the Waste Management (Single Household Waste Collection Service) Bill 2026, taken on 16 July 2026. On the question, \"That the Bill be now read a Second Time\", a division was claimed and in accordance with Standing Order 85(2), that division must be taken now. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Waste Management (Single Household Waste Collection Service) Bill 2026: Second Stage (Resumed) [Private Members]"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-23\/debate\/dbsect_26","debateType":"motion","bill":null,"showAs":"Neutrality and Triple Lock: Motion (Resumed) [Private Members]","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_26","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The following motion was moved by Deputy Donnchadh \u00d3 Laoghaire on Wednesday, 16 September 2026:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"That D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"recognises that:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 Ireland's proud tradition of military neutrality, and affirms the State's neutrality and non-alignment with military blocs to be a cornerstone of an independent Irish foreign policy;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 our neutrality, the \"Triple Lock\" neutrality protection system, have served us well, allowing Ireland to play a constructive role in international affairs, contributing to nuclear non-proliferation, disarmament, humanitarianism and United Nations (UN) peacekeeping missions;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the distinguished service of Irish peacekeepers deployed around the world, and the contribution of every Irish man and woman who has served on such missions throughout the decades; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 nothing in the \"Triple Lock\" prevents us from investing properly in our Defence Forces and that it is the decisions of successive Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael Government that has led to the neglect of our Defence Forces;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"notes that:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the destabilising effect of conflicts that are contributing to global and regional instability, including, but not limited to, Russia's illegal invasion of Ukraine, the continued Israeli occupation of Gaza and settler violence in the West Bank, the US and Israeli war with Iran, the Sudanese war, and urges an end to acts of aggression in all conflicts, and for the primacy of international law to be respected by all nations;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 Ireland's neutrality is an asset in an unpredictable international environment where major powers have undermined and disregarded international law;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 no provision of Ireland's current \"Triple Lock\" system prevents the evacuation of Irish citizens from conflict-torn regions, participation in appropriate training, and nor does it prevent Ireland's participation in humanitarian missions;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the failure by successive governments to adequately invest in Ireland's Defence Forces and in our defence capabilities, leaving the State exposed to numerous threats;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 this Government has chosen to make Ireland reliant, and dependent, on foreign militaries to shore up Irish defence vulnerabilities, as seen by recent arrangements relating to security for engagements held as part of Ireland's presidency of the Council of the European Union, including the presence of British ships off the Irish coast;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 concerning reports that the Minister for Defence has directed officials to progress Irish participation in the British-led Joint Expeditionary Force Plus (JEF+), which will mean deeper military alignment with Britain and other NATO states; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 concerning comments by the Minister for Defence which indicate that Ireland could participate in overseas deployments that do not support a UN resolution, and that she is potentially making arrangements for same; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"agrees that:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 our \"Triple Lock\" neutrality protection is a core component of Ireland's foreign policy and is underpinned by assurances provided to the Irish people by successive Irish Governments in advance of multiple European referendums, such as the Nice and Lisbon referendums;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 Ireland should be strong on defence and strong on neutrality and that this must be achieved by properly resourcing our Defence Forces, rebuilding our Naval Service, strengthen air and maritime surveillance, and developing radar capabilities;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 participation in the JEF+ would be a departure from the position of military non-alignment and the Government must come clean on what discussions have taken place with the British Government in relation to this;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 Ireland should be open to international co-operation to meet genuine security threats, but that co-operation is not the same thing as military alignment, and that participation in any military alliance, including any British-led military framework, would end our neutrality as we know it;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 Ireland should engage with partners as a militarily neutral state, while investing seriously in our own capacity to defend our airspace, territorial waters and critical infrastructure; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 any move to alter the \"Triple Lock\" represents a step towards the complete abandonment of Ireland's policy of military neutrality, and participation in military alliances, as evidenced by the Government's intention to participate in the JEF+; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"calls on the Government:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 not to become a party to the British-led JEF+ military partnership;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 to call a referendum on its proposals to scrap the \"Triple Lock\"; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 to accept that the \"Triple Lock\" is a core component of Ireland's independent foreign policy and is underpinned by assurances provided to the Irish people by successive Irish Governments in advance of multiple European referendums, such as the Nice and Lisbon referendums."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Debates resumed on amendment No. 1:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"To delete all words after \"That D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann\" and substitute the following:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"notes that:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the Government reiterates Ireland's longstanding policy of military neutrality;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 Ireland's policy of military neutrality is characterised by non-membership of military alliances or common or mutual defence arrangements, and this policy choice has been practised by successive Governments since the Second World War;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the Government reaffirms its commitment to this policy and reiterates that it has no plans to either join a military alliance or enter into a mutual defence arrangement;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 in light of the above commitment, the Government does not believe a national referendum on enshrining neutrality into the Constitution is necessary; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 amending the Triple Lock legislation in relation to the deployment of our Defence Forces to peacekeeping missions will have no impact on this policy of military neutrality, and that no other European Union (EU) Member State, including other neutral Member States, allow permanent Security Council members to bind their hands in the way that the Triple Lock effectively does for Ireland;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"recognises that:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 Ireland's long-standing policy of military neutrality, and our strong tradition of participation in international peace support and crisis management operations over many decades;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 members of Ireland's Defence Forces continue to contribute bravely to peacekeeping and crisis management efforts, particularly in the Middle East, as well as elsewhere in the world;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the multilateral system remains our strongest protection and the State's most important security asset;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 Ireland's contributions to conflict resolution and peacebuilding, and work for human rights and development, and our efforts to promote disarmament and the elimination of weapons of mass destruction, are internationally renowned;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 nevertheless, as a highly globalised country, Ireland cannot rely on our geographic isolation for our security, nor isolate ourselves from world events and should co-operate with neighbours on matters of security including in the maritime domain;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the importance of parliamentary safeguards and national oversight in ensuring Irish military deployments are in line with our policy of military neutrality, and that they are decided solely by the elected representatives of the people of Ireland; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the Government is committed to continued increased investment in defence, with a view to achieving a significantly enhanced capability by 2028, and that the Government has already significantly increased our national defence spending in the past few years, by 43 per cent since 2020, marking the largest increase in Defence funding in the history of the Irish State;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"acknowledges that:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the Government is committed to supporting the global multilateral system, to vocally defending international law, particularly international humanitarian law, and human rights;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 in common with other partners in Europe, Ireland finds itself in an increasingly contested, dynamic and volatile international security environment, marked by violence and conflict in our immediate neighbourhood, including Russia's war of aggression in Ukraine, and conflicts in the Middle East and Africa;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 Ireland needs to be agile in how we respond to the new geopolitical environment that we find ourselves in;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 Ireland should be open to international co-operation to meet genuine security threats and learning from other countries to counter these threats;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 Ireland, therefore, should not find itself unable to respond to Peace Support and Crisis Management Operations that align with the United Nations (UN) Charter and International Law, due to a veto by permanent member(s) of the UN Security Council; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 this legislation will remove the power of UN Security Council permanent members to veto our national sovereign decisions regarding our participation in peace keeping missions organised by reputable organisations such as the EU and the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) which will also allow for the deployment of Defence Forces personnel overseas in other overseas roles such as the crisis management evacuation of Irish citizens."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"- (Minister for Defence)"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  I must now deal with a postponed division relating to the motion regarding neutrality and triple lock. On Wednesday, 16 September 2026, on the question, \"That the amendment to the motion be agreed to\", a division was claimed and in accordance with Standing Order 85(2), that division must be taken now. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Neutrality and Triple Lock: Motion (Resumed) [Private Members]"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-23\/debate\/dbsect_35","debateType":"motion","bill":null,"showAs":"Energy Policy: Motion (Resumed) [Private Members]","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_35","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The following motion was moved by Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett on Thursday, 17 September 2026:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"That D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann notes:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 in 2025, data centres consumed 23 per cent of electricity and this is projected to increase to 30 per cent by 2030, far in excess of the three per cent of electricity consumed by data centres in Europe;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 data centres account for 88 per cent of increased demand for electricity since 2015 and now consume almost as much electricity as every home in the state;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 over 120 data centres are operating in the state, a concentration that is at least 10 times higher than the European per capita average;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 a United Nations report published in June stated \"Ireland offers a cautionary example of local grid stress from concentrated digital infrastructure\";"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 data centres also consume large quantities of water and their water consumption increased during the recent period of hot weather while households faced restrictions on water use as supplies ran low;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 data centre development globally is producing massive increases in greenhouse gas emissions and accelerating global temperature rise towards imminent breach of the dangerous 1.5 degrees celsius above preindustrial level;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 an immediate ban on new data centres is essential, in Ireland and globally to stop further increases in their consumption of our energy, their greenhouse gas emissions and their other extremely damaging environmental impacts;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 one in seven households could not afford adequate warmth or pay their energy bills in full in 2024, and over 322,000 households were in electricity arrears in July this year, with average arrears of \u20ac509;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 Friends of the Earth estimate that the average household paid an estimated additional \u20ac263 for their electricity in the 2021 to 2023 period \"due to the intensity of data centre presence on the Irish Single Electricity Market (ISEM) grid putting upward pressure on prices\", and during the height of the 2022 energy crisis, the \"data centre price cost effect\" accounted for the equivalent of about 8.5 per cent of average household electricity bills;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 Budget 2025 provided a \u20ac250 energy credit to households, paid between November 2024 and February 2025, but this was not renewed in Budget 2026;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 up to the end of the 1990s, the Electricity Supply Board (ESB) was a world class energy company, delivering low-cost energy, governed by a not-for-profit mandate, but that mandate was replaced with a commercial mandate in 2001;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 households in Ireland now pay the highest electricity prices in the European Union (EU), 38 per cent higher than the EU average;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 returning the ESB to a not-for-profit state company, with sole responsibility for power generation and distribution, and coupled with energy price caps, can deliver affordable electricity for all and be central to the achievement of a fossil fuel-free economy and society;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 People Before Profit-Solidarity\u2019s Emergency Price Controls Bill 2024, introduced in the D\u00e1il at First Stage in May 2024, calls for electricity prices to be capped for households at \u20ac0.25 per kilowatt hour (KWh);"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 a \u20ac500 annual electricity credit for every household would cost an estimated \u20ac1 billion per year;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 an additional \u20ac500 electricity credit for households with people in receipt of Illness Benefit, Disability Allowance, Invalidity Pension or carer\u2019s payments would cost an estimated \u20ac250 million per year;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 data centres pay approximately \u20ac0.20 per KWh for electricity, half the \u20ac0.40 average price paid by households; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 an electricity consumption levy of \u20ac0.20 per KWh on data centres would equalise their electricity unit costs with those paid by households and would raise approximately \u20ac1.5 billion per year;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"calls on the Government to:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 include an annual \u20ac500 electricity credit for every household in Budget 2027;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 include a budget provision for an annual additional \u20ac500 electricity credit for households with a person(s) in receipt of Illness Benefit, Disability Allowance, Invalidity Pension or carer\u2019s payments; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 introduce an electricity consumption levy on data centres of \u20ac0.20 per KWh, to equalise their electricity unit costs with those paid by households and thereby raise \u20ac1.5 billion to fund \u20ac500 energy credits for households."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"To delete all words after \"D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann\" and substitute the following:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\"the Government:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 remains deeply concerned about the conflict in the Middle East and its impact on energy prices;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 is acutely aware of the impact on households and businesses of the recent increases in the cost of energy, and is actively monitoring the current geopolitical situation and its impact on costs;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 has taken action to help households and businesses with the cost of fuel and energy by introducing one of the most comprehensive support packages in the European Union (EU); and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 affirms that energy affordability is a priority for this Government with the Energy Affordability Action Plan to be submitted to Government in the coming weeks and consideration ongoing of supports for household;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"notes that:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the ongoing conflict in the Middle East has caused international wholesale gas prices to increase which has a significant knock-on impact on retail electricity prices;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 supplier hedging strategies have and are continuing to help cushion households from the full volatility in international wholesale energy markets;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 price setting by electricity suppliers, including standing charges is a commercial and operational matter for the companies concerned and each such company has its own different approach to pricing decisions over time, in accordance with factors such as their overall company strategic direction and costs such as staffing, tax, infrastructure;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 Government understands that any price increase can be a challenge for households and businesses;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 for that reason, the Government has taken action to help households and businesses with the cost of fuel and energy;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 extensions to the package of temporary fuel supports have brought the total cost of these measures to over \u20ac1.4 billion and are helping to reduce the cost burden at the petrol pump;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 successive Budgets have provided targeted support to help households with energy costs;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 in Budget 2026, key measures included an extension until 2030 of the nine per cent Value Added Tax (VAT) rate currently applied to gas and electricity bills, enhanced social protection payments, including an increase to the Fuel Allowance weekly rate and an expansion in the eligibility rules, and a record allocation of \u20ac640 million for SEAI retrofit schemes;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 at the same time, additional retrofitting supports have been rolled out to further help households, capital expenditure of over \u20ac2 billion has delivered over 287,000 home energy upgrades from 2019 to the end of August 2026, including over 39,500 fully funded upgrades for households at risk of energy poverty under the Warmer Homes Scheme;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 in January this year we expanded and reformed retrofitting schemes to ensure more homeowners can receive grants, the new measures included increased attic and wall insulation supports, an increased grant of \u20ac12,500 for heat pump installation, and new grants for windows and doors;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 almost 89,000 applications have been processed to the end of August 2026, an increase of 116 per cent on the same period last year;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 this year to the end of August 2026, almost 42,000 homes have been upgraded through SEAI schemes, including over 6,800 homes at risk of energy poverty under the Warmer Homes Scheme;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the latest Eurostat report (comparing electricity prices across the EU) outlines that Ireland had the fifth highest household electricity prices in the second half of 2025 when adjusted to take account of the \"Purchasing Power Standard\" (i.e. practical affordability, taking account of household income);"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the four biggest energy retailers have confirmed that hardship funds and focused measures are in place for any customers in difficulty;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 switching energy supplier or plan could save the average electricity and gas customers up to \u20ac700 and \u20ac400 (respectively) annually;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 protections are in place for customers experiencing difficulties in paying their bills and households struggling with their bill are strongly encouraged to engage with their supplier;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the Department of Social Protection can also provide support through the Additional Needs Payment to help households meet expenses, including difficulties with fuel bills;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 Government has also established the National Energy Affordability Taskforce (NEAT) to identify, assess and implement measures that will enhance energy affordability for households and businesses while delivering key renewable commitments and protecting security of supply and economic stability;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the NEAT continues to work intensively on an Energy Affordability Action Plan to be submitted to Government in the coming weeks;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the range of supports that were included in Budget 2026 are in line with the movement away from one-off measures, towards permanent supports with funding also provided to address structural issues such as retrofit and infrastructure;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the Government will continue to monitor and assess the situation in relation to energy costs; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the Government will also make a range of relevant decisions as part of Budget 2027;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"further notes that:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 data centres represent critical digital infrastructure that are central to Ireland's modern economy;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 they strengthen Ireland's position as a strategic knowledge intensive regional hub for the Information and Communications Technology sector and also support broader retention and expansion of existing investment that support billions in annual economic value for Ireland via high-wage employment, tax receipts and supplier ecosystems;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 when considering the impact of data centres, we must also weigh wider economic benefits \u2014 tax revenues, employment, broader digital infrastructure value and significant support and linkages provided to other high value sectors of the economy;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 currently the industry employs 19,500 directly, in addition, Ireland's technology sector, underpinned by digital infrastructure in data centres, accounted for employment of 182,900 people in Q4 2024, equivalent to seven per cent of Ireland's total workforce;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 while data centres are large energy users, unlike other European countries that have heavy-industry bases, Ireland's industrial electricity demand is primarily concentrated in our digital economy, this is our core energy-intensive industry;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 comparing total non-residential electricity consumption, which includes industry and data centres, Ireland's consumption is in line with Frankfurt, London, Amsterdam, Paris, and Dublin, (FLAP-D) and other European markets, which represent the tier-one, foundational hubs of Europe's digital infrastructure;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the Government has for a long time recognised that data centres and their energy consumption need to be managed and planned appropriately and we are taking the regulatory, policy and investment measures to deliver on this;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the Government is committed to delivering a balanced approach to facilitate sustainable data centre demand while also ensuring overall energy security and affordability for consumers and businesses;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the Government's Large Energy User (LEU) Action Plan, published in January 2026, sets out a 'plan-led' approach for very large and energy intensive investments, which due to their scale and energy consumption benefit from co-ordinated national infrastructure planning;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the Commission for Regulation of Utilities (CRU) LEU connection policy, published in December 2025, establishes a pathway for new data centres to seek connection to the electricity system, that addresses security of electricity supply risks, system constraints and promotes renewable energy targets;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the CRU is responsible for electricity connection policy and the economic regulation of the electricity system operators ESB Networks and EirGrid;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 Electricity Network Tariffs Structure Review, are set every year by the CRU to recover the costs of developing, operating, and maintaining the electricity grid, they fund a grid that is more resilient to storms and supplies electricity to a growing population, new housing and expanding businesses;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 extra-large energy users, like data centres, have in recent years seen large increases in network costs, with average increase of 175 per cent compared with a 45 per cent increase for domestic customers during 2020-2026;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the United Nations (UN) university report referenced Ireland as 'a cautionary example of local grid stress from concentrated digital infrastructure', however, it should be noted that though referenced, Ireland was not a central tenet to the study but rather a brief paragraph in a much wider report;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 data centres are not a major driver of demand on the public water supply network, accounting for less than 0.3 per cent of the water supplied by Uisce Eireann;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 in addition, not all data centres use water from the Uisce Eireann network, with a number of them having their own wells or utilising rainwater harvesting and on-site storage;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the CRU's LEU connection policy supports Government renewable energy targets, as data centres above certain thresholds will be required to meet at least 80 per cent of their annual demand with new additional renewable electricity generated in the Republic of Ireland; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 according to the Environmental Protection Agency's Greenhouse Gas Emissions data for 2025, Ireland now has the lowest level of greenhouse gas emissions in 36 years, including a 7.1 per cent reduction in energy industries, to an all-time low, this demonstrates that economic growth has been definitively decoupled from greenhouse gas emissions;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the Friends of the Earth report referenced makes particular assumptions about how the electricity market works and the authors acknowledge that the modelling used in the report has limitations;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 consistent with the Government's position, a recent Friends of the Earth report underlines the importance of deploying even more renewable electricity to remove gas related cost effect driving energy prices\u2019, both Government LEAP policy and CRU LEU Connection Decision recognise and support sustainable LEU development ensuring renewables are a key component in any development going forward;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the Government is committed to delivering a balanced approach to facilitate sustainable data centre developments, which operate within the boundaries of our climate legislation and targets and are associated with strong economic activity and employment, support our society, and make efficient use of our electricity grid.\"."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"- (Minister for Climate, Energy and the Environment)"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  I must now deal with a postponed division relating to the motion regarding energy policy. On Thursday, 17 September 2026, , on the question, \"That the amendment to the motion be agreed to\", a division was claimed and in accordance with Standing Order 85(2), that division must be taken now. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Energy Policy: Motion (Resumed) [Private Members]"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-23\/debate\/dbsect_44","debateType":"debate","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/87","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/87\/dail\/2","houseCode":"dail","stage":"2","isBillStage":true,"showAs":"Home Heating Oil (Emergency Mineral Oil Tax Reduction) Bill 2026: Second Stage (Resumed) [Private Members] (D\u00e1il)"}},"showAs":"Home Heating Oil (Emergency Mineral Oil Tax Reduction) Bill 2026: Second Stage (Resumed) [Private Members]","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_44","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  I must now deal with a postponed division relating to Second Stage of the Home Heating Oil (Emergency Mineral Oil Tax Reduction) Bill 2026, taken on 22 September 2026. On the question, \"That the amendment to the motion now be agreed to\" , a division was claimed and in accordance with Standing Order 85(2), that division must be taken now. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Home Heating Oil (Emergency Mineral Oil Tax Reduction) Bill 2026: Second Stage (Resumed) [Private Members]"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-23\/debate\/dbsect_53","debateType":"motion","bill":null,"showAs":"Fuel, Energy and Carbon Tax Relief: Motion (Resumed) [Private Members]","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_53","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The following motion was moved by Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice on Wednesday, 23 September 2026:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"That D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"recognises that:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014\u00a0households, farmers, agricultural contractors, hauliers, tradespeople and businesses are facing renewed and significant increases in the cost of fuel and energy, adding further pressure to an already severe cost-of-living crisis;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014\u00a0petrol and diesel are essential rather than discretionary expenses for hundreds of thousands of people, particularly in rural Ireland where access to adequate public transport and viable alternatives to private vehicles remains limited or non-existent;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014\u00a0farmers and agricultural contractors have no practical alternative to diesel for the operation of tractors, harvesters and other essential agricultural machinery, and that rapidly increasing marked gas oil, or green diesel, prices represent a direct threat to the viability of primary production and agricultural contracting;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014\u00a0increasing fuel costs have consequences extending far beyond the individual fuel user, increasing the cost of producing and transporting food, construction materials and other goods and ultimately increasing prices for consumers;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014\u00a0households dependent on kerosene and other home-heating fuels, particularly throughout rural Ireland, face significant additional costs as the winter period approaches and frequently have no immediately available or affordable alternative heating source;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014\u00a0businesses which manufacture, produce or supply goods and transport those goods using their own vehicles make an important contribution to employment and economic activity but can be excluded from existing fuel rebate arrangements because of requirements relating to haulage licensing;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014\u00a0the Government has made approximately \u20ac85 million available for fuel support for farmers and agricultural contractors, but only approximately \u20ac26 million of this allocation has been claimed to date, leaving substantial funding available which should continue to be used for the purpose for which it was allocated;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014\u00a0approximately \u20ac15 million in European Union (EU) assistance towards increased agricultural input and fertiliser costs is insufficient to meet the scale of the additional costs currently being experienced by Irish farmers;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014\u00a0carbon taxation has a disproportionate impact on people who have no realistic ability to reduce their reliance on fossil fuels, including rural commuters, farmers, contractors, hauliers and households dependent on oil heating;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014\u00a0further increases in carbon tax are already provided for under existing legislation and will further increase the cost of transport and home heating unless those increases are abolished;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014\u00a0D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann was recently recalled to prevent increases in fuel taxation from taking effect, demonstrating that Government can intervene where taxation would otherwise add further to exceptional fuel costs; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014\u00a0comments suggesting that diesel prices in excess of \u20ac2 per litre could become a \"new normal\" are deeply concerning and that the role of Government must instead be to use the measures available to it to protect households and businesses from exceptional energy costs;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"further recognises that:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014\u00a0international conflict, geopolitical instability and volatility in global energy markets are outside the direct control of the State, but decisions relating to domestic taxation, expenditure and targeted supports remain within the control of the Government;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014\u00a0taxation intended to encourage behavioural change cannot achieve that objective where reasonable and affordable alternatives are not available;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014\u00a0rural communities should not be disproportionately penalised because successive Governments have failed to provide adequate public transport, alternative heating systems and other infrastructure necessary to reduce dependence on fossil fuels;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014\u00a0maintaining the viability of farmers, agricultural contractors, hauliers and other businesses is essential to Ireland's food security, employment, rural economy and national supply chains; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014\u00a0exceptional additional Exchequer revenues arising during periods of elevated prices should, where appropriate, be used to protect households and productive sectors of the economy from exceptional cost increases; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"calls on the Government to:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014\u00a0abolish all further scheduled increases in the carbon tax, rather than merely postponing those increases, and ensure that households, motorists, farmers and businesses are not subjected to further automatic increases in carbon taxation;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014\u00a0maintain appropriate reductions and reliefs in excise duties applying to petrol and diesel for as long as exceptional fuel-price pressures persist, and use the taxation measures available to the State to ensure that increases in international oil prices are not unnecessarily compounded by domestic taxation;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014\u00a0explicitly reject the proposition that diesel prices in excess of \u20ac2 per litre should be accepted as a \"new normal\", and commit to using all reasonable taxation, expenditure and policy measures available to Government to reduce the impact of exceptional fuel prices on families and businesses;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014\u00a0ring-fence the full \u20ac85 million allocated for agricultural fuel support, ensure that any portion not initially claimed is not surrendered to the Exchequer or redirected away from fuel assistance, and use the remaining allocation to extend fuel support for farmers and agricultural contractors for a further five months;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014\u00a0recognise the exceptional impact of marked gas oil prices approaching \u20ac1.50 per litre on farmers and agricultural contractors and ensure that future agricultural fuel supports properly reflect the actual additional costs being incurred by those sectors;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014\u00a0provide additional Exchequer funding in Budget 2027 for farmers facing exceptional fertiliser and agricultural input costs, over and above the approximately \u20ac15 million being provided through EU support, and ensure that this constitutes additional funding rather than the reallocation of existing agricultural programmes;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014\u00a0introduce targeted measures, in advance of the winter period, to protect households from exceptional increases in the cost of kerosene and other home-heating fuels, with particular regard to older people, low-income households and households in rural areas with limited alternative heating options;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014\u00a0urgently review the eligibility criteria applying to fuel rebate and support schemes for the haulage and commercial transport sectors, with a view to ensuring that legitimate businesses which transport their own goods as an integral part of their business are not unfairly excluded from support solely because they do not hold a particular category of haulage licence;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014\u00a0require a rural impact assessment to be carried out before any future increase in taxation on transport fuels or household energy, including an assessment of the availability, affordability and practicality of alternative transport and heating options;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014\u00a0publish, on an annual basis, a clear account of the total revenue raised through carbon taxation, the amounts allocated to individual programmes, the amounts actually expended, and any unspent, surrendered or carried-forward balances;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014\u00a0ensure that future energy and taxation policy gives appropriate and balanced consideration to affordability, energy security, food security, economic competitiveness and the particular circumstances of rural Ireland, alongside the State's environmental and emissions-reduction objectives; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014\u00a0commit that the State's response to exceptional international energy-price increases will be based on actively protecting households, farmers, contractors and businesses from costs beyond their control, rather than accepting permanently higher fuel prices as inevitable or as a \"new normal\"."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The following amendment No. 1 was moved by the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Niall Collins:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"To delete all words after \"D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann\" and substitute the following:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\"notes that the Government:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 remains deeply concerned about the ongoing conflict in the Middle East and Gulf;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 recognises and understands the pressures that have arisen due to rising fuel costs as a result of the conflict in the Middle East for all families and businesses, in particular for sectors most reliant on fossil fuels;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 highlights that successive Budgets have provided targeted support to help households with cost-of-living pressures and re-affirms that energy affordability is a priority for this Government; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 remains committed to decarbonising our society, increasing investment in renewable energy sources and recycling carbon tax revenues to protect those most vulnerable to fuel poverty through targeted welfare interventions;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"recognises that:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 this Government has delivered one of the largest support packages in the European Union (EU) per head capita which has included:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 excise duty reductions on diesel, petrol and 'green diesel';"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 an enhanced Diesel Rebate Scheme for the entirety of 2026;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the deferral of the 1st May Carbon Tax increase;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the extension of the fuel allowance for one month;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 funds made available for payments to road transport operators under the Road Transporters Support Scheme;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 funds made available for payments to farmers, farm contractors and fishers under the Fuel Income Support Scheme; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 a reduction in the National Oil Reserves Agency (NORA) Levy;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 it is not possible to offset all of the increases in energy prices, which are driven by market factors, using the tax system;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"further recognises that, in the long run the best way to protect Ireland from the impact of international fossil fuel prices is to reduce our dependence on fossil fuel imports, which we will achieve through the progressive decarbonisation of the Irish economy and society and through the steps that will be taken to meet the Government's commitment to reach net zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2050;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"further notes that:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 current support measures instigated by this Government are estimated to cost over \u20ac1.3 billion from March 2026 to the end of February 2027 and have provided significant relief for households and businesses across the country;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the Government has responded and will continue to respond in a way that protects those most vulnerable to fuel poverty; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"highlights that, the Government remains cognisant of the pressures faced by households and businesses as a result of increased fuel prices owing to the conflict in the Middle East and will seek to address this as part of Budget 2027.\"."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Debate resumed on amendment No. 1 to amendment No. 1:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"To delete all words from \"notes that the Government:\" to \"will seek to address this as part of Budget 2027\" and substitute the following:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\"recognises that:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 working people, families, students, households and pensioners are facing renewed and significant increases in the cost of fuel and energy, as well as increases in public transport fares, adding further pressure to an already severe cost-of-living crisis; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 the Government is directly contributing to this cost-of-living crisis by refusing to introduce price controls on fuel, energy or groceries, abolishing energy credits, enabling data centres to push up energy prices, gutting rent controls, underfunding retrofitting and solar panels for low- and middle-income households and imposing a regressive carbon tax;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"calls on the Government to:"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 impose strict price controls on fuel, energy and groceries and abolish standing charges for electricity and gas;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 stop the planned increases in public transport fares and introduce free public transport to incentivise public transport use;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 introduce a \u20ac500 energy credit in the Budget, to be funded by an energy levy on data centres;"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 abolish the carbon tax and replace it with higher taxes on big business and the wealthy, including a new multimillionaire's tax on wealth, that will also fund a massive expansion of retrofitting grants and free, frequent and expanded public transport; and"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"\u2014 freeze and cut rents.\"."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"- (Deputy Paul Murphy)"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an D\u00e1il ar athl\u00f3 ar 8.12 p.m. go dt\u00ed 8.47 a.m., D\u00e9ardaoin, an 24 Me\u00e1n F\u00f3mhair 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The D\u00e1il adjourned at 8.12 p.m. until 8.47 a.m. on Thursday, 24 September 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Fuel, Energy and Carbon Tax Relief: Motion (Resumed) [Private Members]"}]}}]},"contextDate":"2026-09-23"},{"debateRecord":{"house":{"showAs":"27th Seanad","committeeCode":"","houseCode":"seanad","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/house\/seanad\/27","chamberType":"house","houseNo":"27"},"chamber":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/def\/house\/seanad","showAs":"Seanad \u00c9ireann"},"lastUpdated":"2026-09-24T11:06:42+00:00","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-23\/debate\/main","formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-23\/debate\/mul@\/main.xml"},"pdf":null},"date":"2026-09-23","counts":{"contributorCount":42,"divisionCount":0,"debateSectionCount":9,"questionCount":0,"billCount":0},"debateType":"debate","debateSections":[{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-23\/debate\/dbsect_2","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Gn\u00f3 an tSeanaid - Business of Seanad","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I have received notice from the following Senators that they propose to raise the following matters:  Senator Nessa Cosgrove - the need for the Minister of Health to make a statement on the introduction of a mandatory, nationwide and standardised breast density reporting to all women with mammogram results until the HIQA health technology assessment process has concluded.  Senator Eileen Lynch - the need for the Minister for Children, Disability and Equality to make a statement on amending the early childhood care and education scheme eligibility requirements so that children can commence once eligible at age two years and eight months.  Senator Mike Kennelly - the need for the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage to provide a national planning statement on solar energy development.  Senator Anne Rabbitte - the need for the Minister of State with special responsibility for forestry, farm safety and horticulture to make a statement on the future plans for Portumna Forest Park, County Galway.  Senator Teresa Costello - the need for the Minister for Climate Energy and the Environment to make a statement on the systems in place for the disposal of nitrous oxide canisters and the supports available to local authorities to deal with this issue.  Senator Pauline Tully - the need for the Minister for Social Protection to make a statement on introducing a system where people in receipt of a jobseeker's allowance who become ill are automatically transferred to the supplementary welfare allowance.  Senator Patricia Stephenson - the need for the Minister for Health to provide an update on the provision of sexual assault treatment units in different regions in the country.  The matters raised by the Senators are suitable for discussion and I have selected Senators Cosgrove, Lynch, Kennelly and Rabbitte and they will be taken now. The other Senators may give notice on another day of the matters that they wish to raise. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Gn\u00f3 an tSeanaid - Business of Seanad"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-23\/debate\/dbsect_3","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":false,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-23\/debate\/dbsect_4","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Health Services","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":4},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-23\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_4","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alison Comyn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  The Minister of State is most welcome to Seanad \u00c9ireann. The first Commencement matter is by Senator Cosgrove. She has four minutes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Nessa Cosgrove  Cuirim f\u00e1ilte roimh an Aire St\u00e1it. I have spoken to her before about this issue. At the beginning of September, RT\u00c9's \"Liveline\" programme spent three days discussing the matter of dense breast material. The Minister of State might have heard it because it got huge coverage. It is something I have raised before in this Chamber, not only as a woman but as a representative of Sligo. I first became aware even of the existence of dense breasts with the tragic death of a Sligo woman named Marian Lovett. To give an outline of how the system failed Marian, in 2022, she received a clear mammogram. Less than 12 months later, she received a diagnosis of stage 4 terminal breast cancer. Sadly, she passed away then one year later. Marian's cancer was missed because her breasts contained more fibrous and glandular material than fatty material. The Minister of State will be aware that dense breast material appears white on a standard mammogram and cancerous materials also appear as white, so it makes it difficult to spot. Several of the callers to \"Liveline\", and fair play to Kieran Cuddihy for raising this so well on the programme, noted that the chances of finding cancerous material on a mammogram is akin to finding a snowball in a snowstorm. As a result of the campaign that was brought forward by Lobular Ireland, Siobh\u00e1n Freeney and Marian's daughter, Martha Lovett Cullen, who brought this to my attention, we heard the women's stories. They were very brave when they came on and spoke about this and how they want the information made available to them that the HSE is receiving. I acknowledge HIQA is involved in looking at the issue.  I am going to give the example of Evan, who I heard speak about this. She got a private mammogram in her late 40s because she had a family history of breast cancer. At the private mammogram, she was told by the radiographer that she had extremely dense breasts and needed to be aware of this and that she would require additional screening. The additional screening was required because her breasts showed up as white on the standard mammogram, as would the cancer. Evan requested an ultrasound and a biopsy due to her family history and two weeks later, she was found to have stage 1 lobular cancer. She was lucky that her cancer was identified early. The point is that if she was just getting a standard breast check for cancer, people are not told with that mammogram.  I went for my first breast check during the summer. I was called back. The reason I was called back was because there was an unclear reading. However, I was not told either that I had dense breast tissue. I queried it. I asked, \"Why am I being called back? Is it because I have dense breasts?\" However, the clinicians were not able to give me that information. To me, it seems that if a woman can get a private mammogram and be told she has dense breasts and can make an informed decision to look for a biopsy and a second mammogram, why should everyone not do so?  This is not a failure of BreastCheck. All the women said that. They all said that it is a fantastic service, but we should be told. We should be entitled to the information the HSE is getting. If the clinicians are not able to read it on the mammogram, the equipment or whatever is needed to update the software needs to be put in place.  HIQA is involved, but that is going to be 2027 and the results of that might not be put into play until 2028. In the meantime, can people be told the information the HSE has access to that their own GPs can have access to? Why can people not be told that they have dense breast tissue so that they are able to make an informed choice themselves? It is not that long ago that CervicalCheck was under discussion. I hate bringing that up but it is not that long ago that it also happened that women were not being told. Their information is there and they should be given the information if the HSE has it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Mary Butler)  I thank Senator Cosgrove for the opportunity to discuss this important matter of breast density notification. I have just come from the D\u00e1il Chamber where I took a Topical Issue matter in relation to the important matter of breast screening. I am taking both on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Carroll MacNeill.  The first thing I want to mention, and the Senator said it as well, is the importance of breast screening. Unfortunately, only 70% of people take up their appointment; one out of every three does not. Any time we are speaking about women's health, and we are all unified in this, the more people who go for screening, the better. That is the first piece. One third of all breast cancers of the 3,500 every year are identified through BreastCheck. That is the first point I want to make. We are all in agreement about how important it is.  To move on to the matter of breast density notification, which is a really important thing, depending on a woman's body shape, as to whether breast density can be identified. It is common; around half of all women have dense breasts. It is a normal variation in breast tissue. Breast density is one of several factors that can influence breast cancer risk. It is very important to say, however, that having dense breasts does not mean someone will develop breast cancer. High levels of breast density can make mammograms more difficult to interpret in some women. However, breast density alone does not automatically mean that further imaging is required. Decisions about additional imaging are made on an individual basis by the clinical team as part of a women's assessment and diagnosis.  BreastCheck mammograms remain the best screening test available for population breast screening for women aged 50 to 69 years of age. It can save lives by finding many cancers early, often before symptoms develop. It is important to know that mammography detects the majority of breast cancers, including in women with dense breasts.  Consideration of any changes in Ireland's screening programmes is facilitated through established, evidence-driven protocols. The national screening advisory committee is an independent expert group that advises the Minister for Health on any proposed changes to Ireland's screening programmes. As Senator Cosgrove noted, at the request of the committee, the Health Information and Quality Authority, HIQA, has commenced a health technology assessment, HTA, to consider proposals for expansion of the BreastCheck programme. This is democracy in action. This is women with lived experience bringing their concerns forward through a committee, with recommendation made to the Minister and that recommendation has now gone to HIQA.  This review will comprise of three distinct components. First is the proposed extension of the age range eligibility to those aged 45 to 49, which I agree with. Second is the extension of age range to those aged 70 to 74. Again, I think that is really important. Third is the potential introduction of a standardised breast density notification. That is what the Senator is talking about. She talked about someone who went privately. I am not sure if it is across all private or if it was just that individual case. It is an interesting point. I do think the potential introduction of a standardised breast density notification would be really important to support women.  The HTA facilitates the assessment of relevant evidence on the effects and consequences of healthcare technologies or programmes. They seek to guide decisions regarding the appropriate use of technology and efficient allocation of resources. They involve a multidisciplinary assessment of clinical, economic, ethical, legal and societal perspectives that may be impacted by the introduction of a new technology or programme.  The Minister for Health wants to be in a position to develop services that are clinically effective and have positive health outcomes. She needs to be informed by the experts in order to do this. I will certainly discuss this with the Minister. She is not available today as there are a lot of budget talks going on. It is something I have heard about from my own friends, from colleagues and from Senator Cosgrove, who is such an advocate for women's health, and I compliment her on that. I have no problem coming into the Seanad any time to discuss women's health. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Nessa Cosgrove  I thank the Minister of State for being so responsive. No one is disputing this, and we are totally in favour of extending the BreastCheck to both sides of the existing age range. It is a wonderful service and it is picking up many cancers. If someone has dense breast tissue it does not appear often as a lump. It is like a spider web and women are not feeling it. They have been encouraged to check their own breasts. If they have dense breast tissue, it is not showing up as a lump. At the moment we are not even looking at a second mammogram or ultrasound being referred. It is about women being told the information in order that they can decide if they want to do it privately themselves. I can see what the HIQA report will hopefully recommend, that is, that if dense breast tissue is showing up, women are to be referred for a second mammogram or ultrasound or biopsy; whatever is appropriate.  In my experience, when I was referred, it was really quick. Unfortunately, it was not in Sligo, and I had to go to Galway but it was really fast. I had a second mammogram and I had an ultrasound. I did not need to get a biopsy. What we are looking for in the interim before the HIQA report is concluded is that women are given the information so they can see that maybe they do need to pay for a second mammogram or maybe they need to look for an ultrasound. It is just so they have access to their own information. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mary Butler  I thank Senator Cosgrove. I assure her I will bring her views on this important matter back to the Minister for Health. It is important for me to clarify for the House that the BreastCheck programme does not currently collect, record or report on breast density scores. Determining the merits or otherwise of introducing such a notification is precisely the purpose of the HTA process, which should be allowed run its course. It is under way. Population-based screening programmes are intended for individuals without symptoms. It is really important that we recognise it is for people without symptoms. If somebody has any concerns or symptoms related to their breasts, they should not attend screening but instead should contact a medical professional for appropriate advice, that is, their GP. That is important.  I actually got notified yesterday. My husband told me on the phone that I got a notification from BreastCheck to attend. I think this is my fourth time going. It is a very good service. It really is. Unfortunately, only two out of three appointments are taken up. It falls more in the summer. People are busy. They might be working. It might not be easy to get off work. However, it is important to contact them, and they will reschedule. That is the most important thing to say. It is very important that every woman is breast-aware, which means knowing what is normal for them so that if any unusual change occurs, they will recognise it. Further information is available on the HSE website and on breastcheck.ie .  To return to Senator Cosgrove's point, the Minister has said she has to allow the process to take place before she can make that decision, which is the Senator's request, that the person should be notified. That would mean training and everything. The sooner we get this done by HIQA, the better, and hopefully we will have a positive outcome. I do support what the Senator is trying to achieve. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alison Comyn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Alison Comyn)  Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an Aire St\u00e1it. I thank her for always being so available to the Seanad Chamber. It is lovely to see her here this morning.  While we are waiting for our next Commencement matter, I wish to welcome a special guest to the Visitors Gallery. We have Robert Watson, friend of Deputy Aindrias Moynihan. Good morning to them both. It is lovely to see them in the Chamber, and I hope they enjoy the proceedings. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Health Services"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-23\/debate\/dbsect_5","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Early Childhood Care and Education","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-23\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_5","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alison Comyn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eileen Lynch","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eileen-Lynch.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Eileen-Lynch.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Kevin Boxer Moran","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Kevin-Boxer-Moran.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Kevin-Boxer-Moran.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alison Comyn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Alison Comyn)  I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Kevin Boxer Moran, to the Chamber. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eileen Lynch","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eileen-Lynch.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Eileen-Lynch.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Eileen Lynch  Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an Aire St\u00e1it as a bheith anseo inniu. I want to raise the issue of the ECCE scheme and its impact on children who miss the eligibility criteria by only a matter of days or weeks, particularly kids with additional needs. I would also like to ask whether any changes to these criteria are being considered.  Currently, there are no exemptions to the lower age limit for the ECCE scheme. This means that a child who misses the eligibility threshold by only a few days or weeks must wait an entire additional year before becoming eligible for a State-funded preschool place. Many parents are finding this incredibly unfair and a difference of only a few weeks or days in a child's date of birth will determine whether they receive one or two years of ECCE funding and can significantly affect their educational pathway. As a result, some parents feel pressure to delay their child's entry to primary school in order that they can benefit from the full two years of ECCE prior to primary school. Others choose to send their child to school at the usual age and receive only one year of ECCE support.  This issue is particularly concerning for children with intellectual disabilities and other additional needs. The State recognises that early intervention is critical in supporting the development of children with disabilities. However, there does appear to be a contradiction within the current system. A child may be assessed by speech and language therapy, occupational therapy, physiotherapy, psychology services or children's disability network teams, CDNTs, and be deemed likely to benefit from early education participation. They may be developmentally ready for preschool and could greatly benefit from the environment yet there is still no provision or exemption within ECCE for a lower age limit regardless of disability or ability, developmental need or professional recommendation.  As an example, I have been working with a young child from the constituency I live in of Cork North-West. Noah is a young lad who is almost three years of age and has Down's syndrome. He is thriving and is making excellent progress in all areas of his development but because Noah was born in January, he did not qualify for ECCE when he began preschool a few weeks ago. Following professional advice from therapists, his parents still felt it was in his best interests to send him rather than waiting another year because delaying this could have delayed his development. As a result of this, they are now facing a full year of preschool fees without any ECCE support.  In addition, as preparation to ensure that Noah was able to attend preschool this year, he was attending private speech and language therapy, craniosacral therapy, physiotherapy and occupational therapy sessions each week. This was to ensure he was able to go to preschool this year and then he was ineligible for ECCE. This is all extra cost to his parents. On top of all this private therapy they have been paying for to ensure he was ready for preschool, they now have to pay for preschool because he misses out by three weeks due to the fact that he was born in January.  Children with disabilities often require earlier interventions. This is nothing new. As a Government, we are saying this all the time and not later interventions. A rigid age-based rule may unintentionally delay access to an environment that supports language development, communication, socialisation, independence and school readiness. We know early intervention makes a difference and it is insane that the ECCE scheme is not supporting that. We have situations, particularly with kids with additional needs, where they cannot avail of their extra year because of a rigid, mandatory age requirement.  Going back to Noah, he has now been in preschool for a month. His parents and therapists have already seen remarkable progress. He is a smashing little kid. He is doing really well. He is using new words, and he is engaging with other children. If he had not been able to go to preschool this year, none of that would have been possible.  His parents put additional therapies in place to ensure that he was, but then found out he was ineligible and missed out by a few weeks due to a mandatory age requirement. How many other kids around the country are like Noah? Fortunately, his parents were able to afford to pay for an extra year of the ECCE scheme. A lot of parents are not lucky enough to be in that situation. I appreciate it is not quite within the remit of the Minister, but I thank her for taking this matter. Can any changes be made, given that it is an arbitrary requirement? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Kevin Boxer Moran","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Kevin-Boxer-Moran.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Kevin-Boxer-Moran.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (Deputy Kevin Boxer Moran)  The Minister would like to thank the Senator for raising this important issue and offering a full opportunity to respond. The ECCE programme provides two years of preschool free of charge to families and is based on the national practice framework, aistear and s\u00edolta. The programme enjoys a 96% participation rate, with over 1 million children enrolled in the programme since it was first introduced in 2010. The programme provides three free hours per day, five days per week, over 38 weeks per year.  Currently, children are eligible for the ECCE starting at two years and eight months and the upper age limit is five years and six months. The current eligibility criteria were set based on a number of considerations, including a review of international practice. The lower age range is informed by Tusla regulations and a minimum adult-to-child ratio for children in early learning and child care settings. These regulations take account of the needs of the developmental stages of children, such as toilet training and sleeping arrangements.  The Department recognises that the use of age limits for the purposes such of the ECCE programme can result in some children narrowly falling outside of the eligibility criteria in a given year. However, in the interests of fairness and consistency, the Department must apply a clear and fixed age threshold. The current arrangement ensures that all children have the same entitlement of two years of the ECCE, regardless of their birth date. Some parents may prefer children to start school at the age of four rather than five. These parents may, therefore, choose to avail of one year of the ECCE. However, it is important to note that this is a parental choice and the overall policy ensures that two years of the programme are available to all children.  The programme for Government commits to amend the ECCE programme eligibility criteria. The shaping the future early years action plan phase 1 report, published in December 2025, notes that the potential extension of the free ECCE programme and amending the age eligibility criteria will include consultation and analysis under the phase 2 of the action plan. Phase 2 actions, which will be undertaken in 2027 to the end of 2029, will be published in quarter four of 2026 before those actions can be specified in line with the commitment in the programme for Government. A broad public consultation process is currently underway. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eileen Lynch","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eileen-Lynch.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Eileen-Lynch.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Eileen Lynch  I thank the Minister of State for the response. I note it is not quite within the responsibility of his Department. It is a very standard response. It is disappointing in terms of the question I raised. Again, I appreciate that it is not his responsibility. Unfortunately, I do not have a written copy and do not have a note of what he said.  He outlined the mandatory criteria. That is all well and good, but kids operate on a different basis. I heard an example today of a child who has additional needs. Nobody is taking account of that in the current ECCE scheme. I am not taking away from the scheme. The Minister of State outlined its advantages. It is a fantastic scheme for those who are born at the right time. Whether a child does or does not have additional needs, they can miss out on the full year of the scheme by a matter of days or weeks. It is an arbitrary date. I ask that the Minister consider changing the criteria so that places can be accepted throughout the year on a rolling basis. As I said, whether a child has additional needs the dates are arbitrary.  Parents are being put under undue pressure. The scheme and funding are in place. The Minister of State outlined all of the advantages of the scheme, and I am not trying to take away from that, but it is unfortunate that many children are missing out because of an arbitrary date. A lot of discretion needs to be used. The Minister of State mentioned a review, but it is not coming fast enough. We have no indication as to whether the review will examine the eligibility dates. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Kevin Boxer Moran","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Kevin-Boxer-Moran.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Kevin-Boxer-Moran.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Kevin Boxer Moran  I agree with the Senator. As I outlined in my opening remarks, I will bring this issue to the attention of the Minister. I meet many children and parents who experience the same difficulties the Senator has outlined. I feel for those people. The programme for Government is committed to delivering on this and we will do so. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Early Childhood Care and Education"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-23\/debate\/dbsect_6","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Planning Issues","counts":{"speechCount":13,"speakerCount":4},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-23\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_6","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alison Comyn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mike Kennelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mike-Kennelly.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Mike-Kennelly.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Christopher O'Sullivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Christopher-O'Sullivan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Christopher-O'Sullivan.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Anne Rabbitte","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Anne-Rabbitte.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Anne-Rabbitte.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alison Comyn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Alison Comyn)  I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mike Kennelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mike-Kennelly.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Mike-Kennelly.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mike Kennelly  I thank the Minister of State for coming to the Seanad. I call on the Minister for Climate, Energy and the Environment, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, to provide a timeline for the publication of the national planning statement on solar energy development. Let us be clear. Ireland needs renewable energy and solar energy will play a major role in helping us to meet our climate targets. Most people will accept that.  However, communities also need confidence that solar developments are being planned in a fair, transparent, consistent and balanced manner. At present, local authorities, developers and communities are operating without any national guidelines or guidance. This is creating uncertainty and concern, in particular in rural areas where large-scale solar farm applications are being proposed. In one area of north Kerry there are currently ten solar farm developments approved or progressing through the planning process, covering over 4,000 acres of land in the Listowel municipal district. This demonstrates the scale of investment coming into rural Ireland and the urgency of having a clear national framework in place.  I want to be very clear that people, including me, are not opposed to renewable energy, but they want to know what rules are being applied and what protections are in place. Communities deserve certainty and consistency, rather than having these decisions made without clear national guidelines. The national planning statement should provide clear direction on a number of key issues in regard to solar farm planning applications. It should address location and site suitability, whether the proposed site is appropriate for solar development, landscape and visual factors, the effect of solar installation on the surrounding landscape and views, glint and glare issues, the assessment and mitigation of potential impacts on nearby homes, roads, airports and other sensitive locations, residential amenities, the potential impact on neighbouring homes, including the visual impact, noise and construction disturbances, setback distances from properties and proper screening. It should also consider the quality and productive use of agricultural land.  As is the case with wind energy, community engagement is important, especially in my area. Meaningful consultation with local communities before and during the planning process, outlining the community benefit arising from renewable energy projects is necessary. As I said, almost 4,500 acres in my area are being proposed for solar wind farms. This is not a question of choosing between climate action and protecting rural Ireland. We can and we must do both. Clear national guidelines would provide certainty for communities and landowners and consistency for planning authorities across Ireland.  This is not an argument against renewable energy. As I said, it is quite the opposite. We need renewable energy. We need to meet our climate targets. We need energy security and investment in rural Ireland. We also need public confidence. If we do not bring the public with us, we will not have their confidence. People living in rural communities deserve to know the large-scale developments are being planned strategically and that their concerns are being properly considered. We should not find ourselves in a situation whereby significant areas of our rural districts are being committed to solar development before we have a clear national planning framework in place. This should not be a choice between protecting our rural environment and achieving our climate targets. As I said, we must deliver on both.  Today, I call on the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, to provide a firm timeline for the publication of the national planning statements for solar energy and to ensure local communities, local authorities, farmers, environmental interests and developers have a meaningful opportunity to contribute to the process. I thank the Minister of State. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Christopher O'Sullivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Christopher-O'Sullivan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Christopher-O'Sullivan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage (Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan)  I thank the Senator for raising this issue. He mentioned the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, whose remit is obviously very relevant to renewable energy. However, the national planning statements will be done by the Department of housing under the Minister, Deputy James Browne. Another point to make is that I cannot give an exact timeline for when the national planning statement on solar will be finalised. In that context, there are approximately 28 national planning statements that we are preparing at the moment. We have just done one on rural housing, as the Senator will be aware. There is quite a body of work to get through. I give that context at the start.  I highlight that the Programme for Government 2025: Securing Ireland's Future reaffirms Ireland's commitment to the ambitious target of having 8 GW of solar capacity connected to the grid by 2030 to assist with meeting the requirement that 80% of electricity demand be supplied by renewables. Solar energy is a growing source of electricity, with installed solar capacity passing the 3 GW milestone for the first time in August of this year. However, further solar capacity is required.  As many Senators will be aware, my Department is working with the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment, which holds policy responsibility for renewable energy matters in respect of the introduction of a number of planning statements related to Ireland's climate action plan target, to increase the share of electricity generated from renewable sources to 80% by 2030. This includes the preparation of a national planning statement for solar energy development.  Further to the commencement of Chapter 3 of Part 3 of the Planning and Development Act 2024 on 2 December 2025, provisions for national planning statements have been introduced to replace the provisions for ministerial guidelines issued under section 28 of the Planning and Development Act 2000. All existing section 28 guidelines will, over time, be revoked and replaced with new national planning statements. Any current section 28 guidelines will, however, remain in force until revoked or replaced by a corresponding national planning statement.  In respect of sectoral national planning statements in particular, there is also an important role for the relevant policy Department in collaborating with my Department on the development of these national planning statements. In that context, my Department is working closely with the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment as the Department with policy responsibility for renewable energy in order to identify the component factors relevant to the preparation of a national planning statement for solar energy, including any appropriate environmental reporting and public consultation requirements, European obligations such as the renewable energy directive, battery storage facilities and the possible timeframe for the publication of the national planning statement.  In line with EU directive requirements, a strategic environmental assessment will be carried out on any national planning statement regarding solar energy development, with opportunity for consultation by the public and all stakeholders on the draft national planning statement. Until the national planning statement for solar energy is finalised, it remains the case that no specific planning guidelines are currently in place that deal with solar energy development, as is the case for most types of development. I am satisfied, however, that in the interim, the existing and evolving planning system, supported by Government policy more generally, provides a sufficiently robust policy and legislative framework to facilitate the roll-out of solar energy development in a sustainable manner and to assist with meeting our renewable electricity requirements while balancing the perspectives of local communities and allowing for public and stakeholder engagement. In making a decision on a planning application for a solar energy development, a planning authority must consider the specific merits or otherwise of the application in line with the proper planning and sustainable development of the area. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mike Kennelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mike-Kennelly.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Mike-Kennelly.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mike Kennelly  I thank the Minister of State for his reply. I mentioned the Minister for the environment. Are we saying that these guidelines have to be presented to the Minister for housing to implement? I am asking about the input from the Minister for the environment. I respect the response of the Minister of State but I do not respect the timeline or timeframe. Right now across the country, it is starting to creep up. It was brought to our attention in the D\u00e1il last week by Deputy Kyne. He wanted a moratorium on any future grants of planning permission for solar farms until these guidelines are brought to our attention and that of the local authorities that make decisions on planning applications. I cannot build a house without a guideline. I cannot seek planning permission to build a house without any guidelines.  The one-size-fits-all approach is not suitable. Until the national planning statement for solar energy is finalised, it remains the case that no specific planning guidelines are currently in place to deal with the development of solar energy. I am here for one reason. It is starting to creep across the country. Unfortunately, there are more than 4,500 acres in north Kerry that will be covered. It is good land and the home of Kerry Group. We are on about land, lamb production and farming. The oversaturation in areas is going to require a big answer. I need the guidelines. If we can pass the buck to another Department, so be it, but I am here to look for those guidelines. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Christopher O'Sullivan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Christopher-O'Sullivan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Christopher-O'Sullivan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan  I would like to correct the record. I said there were 28 planning statements in the pipeline. Although there is a large number of planning statements, I was incorrectly reading a reference to \"section 28\". I correct the record on that point.  I totally understand the concern of the public out there. I totally understand the concern of people who are potentially living near proposed solar farms. That is an issue. There is a planning process in place at the moment that takes a lot of these concerns into account, including how visually obtrusive a development might be and other aspects that are relevant to planning. At the same time, offshore renewable energy is still a way off. It is something that we are focused on achieving and we are making progress there under the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien. However, we still need a big mix of renewable energy, especially in the middle of a fuel crisis when we are relying on fossil fuels.  We have had a lot of objections - let us call a spade a spade - to wind turbines. We are now starting to see objections creep into areas where solar farms are planned. We are going to have to make some tough decisions. It is not going to be easy. The Senator is absolutely right that the national planning statement will help the likes of us when we are going back to our constituents who have concerns. However, I wholeheartedly disagree with the idea of a moratorium because of our need to ramp up renewable energy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alison Comyn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Alison Comyn)  I ask the Acting Leader to suspend the House for a few moments while we await the arrival of the Minister of State, Deputy Collins. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Anne Rabbitte","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Anne-Rabbitte.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Anne-Rabbitte.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Anne Rabbitte  I propose the suspension of the House. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alison Comyn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Alison Comyn)  Is that agreed? Agreed. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionra\u00ed ar 11.11 a.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 11.27 a.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Sitting suspended at 11.11 a.m. and resumed at 11.27 a.m. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alison Comyn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Alison Comyn)  We do not have a Minister to attend to Senator Rabbitte's Commencement matter. We will deal with that in a moment but before I do, I want to welcome some very special guests, Core Credit Union from Ballybrack and Dr. Shashi Murthy of UCD, to our Visitors Gallery. They are guests of Deputy Cormac Delvin. I hope they enjoy their stay here. For now, I propose that we will suspend the House until 11.30 a.m. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Anne Rabbitte","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Anne-Rabbitte.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Anne-Rabbitte.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Anne Rabbitte  Through the Chair, it is unfortunate that I was not allowed to come in. I hope that I can still speak and I do not wish to allow the suspension of the House without----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alison Comyn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Alison Comyn)  Is this a point of order? The Senator can take it up during the Order of Business. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Anne Rabbitte","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Anne-Rabbitte.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Anne-Rabbitte.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Anne Rabbitte  No, with respect to the Acting Chair, I will take it up now.  I thank the Acting Chair for her time as she has been sitting here waiting for a Minister to show up to take my Commencement matter. It was Commencement matter No. 4 in which I was to raise Portumna Forest Park. While I understand the Minister is in the Chamber and quite rightly so, I am disappointed that there was not cover from the Front Bench to facilitate. I always thought the procedure was that when a Minister takes that chair, they never leave it until there is a Minister outside. That is the proper protocol and unfortunately that was not adhered to this morning and unfortunately we did not have Front Bench cover. That is something that needs to be addressed at the start of this season because it is quite embarrassing to be sitting here and to be stood up by our Lower House. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alison Comyn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Alison Comyn)  I thank the Senator for her point of order. I accept that. For now, I propose we stand suspended until 11.30 a.m. Is that agreed? Agreed. I do not know what the protocol is for unsuspending the House but I can now welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Niall Collins, to the Chamber. We will continue the Commencement matter. I saw the Minister of State hotfooting it up from the D\u00e1il. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Planning Issues"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-23\/debate\/dbsect_7","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Coillte Teoranta","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-23\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_7","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Anne Rabbitte","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Anne-Rabbitte.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Anne-Rabbitte.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niall Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niall-Collins.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Niall-Collins.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Anne Rabbitte","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Anne-Rabbitte.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Anne-Rabbitte.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Anne Rabbitte  I thank the Acting Chairperson and I thank the Minister of State for making such an effort to be here. I really appreciate it. He was in the D\u00e1il Chamber and I saw that. It is just unfortunate the somebody from the Front Bench could not have covered him at this moment in time because he cannot be in two places at one time.  I raise Portumna Forest Park. It is a park under the control of Coillte which happens to be under the Minister of State's remit. At the outset, I wish him the best of luck in that portfolio. Portumna Forest Park is both an economic driver for Coillte and a recreational forest park for the people of Portumna. Unfortunately, the last allocation of enhancement works that were to be carried out at Portumna Forest Park did not make the cut for numerous reasons.  One of the main reasons was that the people of Portumna were unhappy with the allocation in relation to accommodation that was within the overall plan, scope and design. After the summer just gone by, when we had no accessible toilets within a 1,500-acre park, I do not feel that is acceptable by any manner or means. While I acknowledge the wonderful work that is done by Coillte, particularly by Declan Garvey and David Harris on a daily basis, we have to make some arrangements to move forward with a design or plan that would be in keeping with what the park design is, would ensure we have accessible toilets and would ensure that people have a place to come in out of the rain and have their picnics when they visit the forest.  I am also looking for an upgrade and proper signage in relation to the various walkways that we have in Portumna. There is a fantastic accessible walking park within it, but the expansion of the accessibility would be really welcome. There has been huge investment in the blueway, but that blueway tying in with the greenway within the park would mean that the allocation of accessible bikes would actually get a full experience within the park.  I have no doubt that the Minister of State's office works very closely with the local authorities in ensuring those upgrades can be met to ensure the park can be both a place of recreation and economic driver. For us in Portumna, it is our centrepiece. It is the crown in the jewel for us. However, we got a lot of complaints during the summer. Older people in particular who go out there cannot use what is available. I look forward to the Minister of State\u2019s response. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niall Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niall-Collins.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Niall-Collins.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine (Deputy Niall Collins)  I wish to explain to the House and the Senators that I was in the D\u00e1il Chamber and I was to be relieved at 11 a.m. to come in here to take this matter, but there was some kind of a mix-up. I was not relieved until 11.30 a.m. and I came straight here then.  I thank Senator Rabbitte for giving me the opportunity to update the House on Coillte\u2019s plans for Portumna Forest Park. Coillte, which is the custodian of our public forest estate, currently manages 440,000 ha of land, which represents 7% of the total area of the State. The company employs more than 800 staff. While Coillte is Ireland's largest producer and supplier of certified timber, its role is much wider than just managing productive forests. It manages much of its estate for nature and is the largest provider of outdoor recreation in Ireland. It records increases in the number of visitors to its recreational forests every year. Its locations include Beyond the Trees, located in Avondale Forest Park in County Wicklow, which was the most visited forest park in 2025, recording almost 350,000 visits.  Portumna Forest Park is also part of Coillte\u2019s portfolio of recreational forests. It covers almost 450 ha, and was acquired by the company in 1948. I recognise that this forest, located in County Galway, is very important for recreation and biodiversity in the area. It is a valued amenity that attracts more than 45,000 visits annually. Coillte has implemented a range of woodland habitat enhancement and ecological restoration measures across the forest, including the planting of native oak trees within mature Scots pine stands through an underplanting programme designed to increase woodland diversity, strengthen habitat connectivity and support the development of a more natural and resilient forest structure.  In recent years, in partnership with Galway County Council and with the support of F\u00e1ilte Ireland, Coillte undertook to explore opportunities to further enhance the visitor experience at Portumna Forest Park. This process included significant public and stakeholder engagement and consultation and helped to inform the long-term vision for the forest park. Following a review of Coillte\u2019s national recreation programme in the aftermath of Storm \u00c9owyn, the company took the decision not to progress the planned redevelopment project at Portumna Forest Park at this time. The company has informed me that this decision was communicated to all involved stakeholders. While the redevelopment project is not progressing, Coillte remains committed to the management and upkeep of Portumna Forest Park and maintaining the visitor facilities available onsite. It is important to keep in mind that Coillte was established as a private commercial company under the Forestry Act 1988. Therefore, day-to-day operational matters, such as the management of its visitor centres and recreational forests, are the responsibility of the company.  Storm \u00c9owyn caused significant damage to the Coillte estate. A satellite imagery-based assessment of wind-damaged forest areas has determined that 14,500 ha of forests were affected. To put this into perspective, this is more than twice the size of Coillte\u2019s annual harvest area. Despite the challenges experienced last year, approximately 30% of the Coillte estate, representing approximately 135,000 ha of forest and land, is now managed primarily for nature and biodiversity. Coillte's objectives to 2050 are set out in its forest estate strategic land-use plan, which was published in 2023 and supports the long-term delivery of climate, nature, wood and people benefits across Ireland's forests. It is important to keep in mind that Coillte is a central part of Ireland's wider forestry sector, which supports more than 9,000 jobs and contributes approximately \u20ac2.3 billion to the Irish economy nationally. I strongly believe, in conclusion, that Coillte continues to have an important role in delivering the multiple benefits of forests for climate, nature, wood and people, creating lasting value for society while sustainably managing our public forest estate. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Anne Rabbitte","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Anne-Rabbitte.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Anne-Rabbitte.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Anne Rabbitte  I thank the Minister of State for his comprehensive response. It is greatly appreciated. While I hear what he is saying in relation to Storm \u00c9owyn, I hope Coillte can look again at the recreational space, which is the amenity space, and at where the toilet block would be or the picnic area could be. If it could review that as one phase, along with signs and walkways, it would be greatly appreciated. Coillte is doing phenomenal work. It is great to get the up-to-date figures in relation to the 40,000 visitors. That is 40,000 visitors coming to a rural town in east Galway, and it would not be happening only for the management and the upkeep of Portumna Forest Park. That goes back to Coillte and the good engagement it has with the community.  On a final note, it has also done great work in Derrygill in Woodford. Going forward, when we are looking at signage and upkeep, if we could look at connecting Derrycrag and Derrygill through a local walkway, it would be well within Coillte\u2019s remit and would also be gratefully appreciated. I thank the Minister of State for his time and for coming here this morning. I really appreciate it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niall Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niall-Collins.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Niall-Collins.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Niall Collins  I thank the Senator for raising this important issue, which I know she is very familiar with. I will bring all of the points raised by the Senator to the attention of Coillte. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionra\u00ed ar 11.38 a.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 11.39 a.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Sitting suspended at 11.38 a.m. and resumed at 11.39 a.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Coillte Teoranta"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-23\/debate\/dbsect_8","debateType":"orderofBusiness","bill":null,"showAs":"An tOrd Gn\u00f3 - Order of Business","counts":{"speechCount":32,"speakerCount":24},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fiona O'Loughlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Duffy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aubrey McCarthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Murphy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Conor-Murphy.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patricia Stephenson","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Teresa Costello","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Teresa-Costello.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Teresa-Costello.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Manus Boyle","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Manus-Boyle.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Manus-Boyle.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Victor Boyhan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Daly.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Paul-Daly.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gareth Scahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pauline Tully","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Laura Harmon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gerard P. Craughwell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerard-P-Craughwell.S.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Gerard-P-Craughwell.S.2014-10-10","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sharon Keogan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanne Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sarah O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eileen Flynn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eileen-Flynn.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Eileen-Flynn.S.2020-06-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"R\u00f3n\u00e1n Mullen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/R\u00f3n\u00e1n-Mullen.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"R\u00f3n\u00e1n-Mullen.S.2007-07-23","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  The Order of Business is No. 1, address to Seanad \u00c9ireann by MEPs representing the European Parliament Dublin constituency, to be taken at 2 p.m., in accordance with the amendments set out in the motion passed by the House on 22 September 2026; and No. 68( 6 ), Private Members' business, motion regarding childcare, to be taken at 5.30 p.m., with the time allocated to this debate not to exceed two hours. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fiona O'Loughlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Fiona O'Loughlin  Having just come from the Chambers Ireland briefing on businesses, I want to take the opportunity to wish the new Kildare Chamber CEO, Cliodhna O'Byrne, well. We have a very active chamber. It does an excellent job under the leadership of Ruth Murphy and it excels in representing the many businesses we have, small as well as large. It is very conscious of the cost of business and what we need to do to support our indigenous businesses in particular. I note the publication during the summer of the cost of business advisory forum report, which set out 63 recommendations to boost competitiveness and cut costs. The report is very practical. Key actionable priorities were set out by the Department, including cutting administrative red tape and enhancing financial competition. The forum said it would meet in another six months to look for progress but we need to have a debate in this House with the Minister, Deputy Burke. This is really important and I think we would all support it.  Yesterday, I hosted a briefing in the audiovisual room with Age Alliance Ireland. This is a really strong organisation which consists of eight different groups that work with older people both on an individual basis and collectively. One thing that really stood out to me was that there are only two specialist fall clinics for the whole of Ireland. Over 62,000 older adults need medical care for falls annually, yet one in five has no access to a clinic. The Minister and the HSE urgently need to look at that care gap. As we all know, a fall for an older person is not just a minor medical emergency. It can be so much more and can be life altering. I would like the opportunity to have a debate with the Minister of State with responsibility for older people or the Minister for Health.  Having recently battled shingles during the recess, I can personally attest to just how debilitating and painful this illness can be. My immediate priority is to get the shingles vaccine as soon as I can, but I have to wait 12 months to make sure that I am protected against a recurrence. My experience underscores the very pressing need we should have to expand our preventative healthcare for older people. We do really well with our child immunisation scheme but we do not do so well for adults. Prior to this, I had been lobbying for a shingles vaccination for over 65s, particularly because of the 20% extra protection against dementia it can provide, but RSV is also really important and we need to have a debate on that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Duffy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mark Duffy  I would like to advocate for the introduction of further supports for third-level students, in particular for those who are commuting long distances to their local college or university. I am a former students' union president myself. I have seen first hand trying to help students in very difficult financial situations. It puts a huge pressure on all the family when someone goes to college. It is obviously a great moment of pride and experience in their life but it puts a lot of challenges and pressures on the whole family. The rising cost and lack of provision of accommodation means there are additional pressures on families, households and students. In my own case in Mayo, we have many students travelling to Galway, Sligo and other areas. The transport cost on a daily basis is very significant. That is why I am advocating for and encouraging the Government to consider a free travel pass for students who are travelling long distances and can demonstrate they do not have accommodation. A pilot programme could be done through the students' unions or something done to help encourage and take some of the burden off students who are under difficult financial pressure and commuting daily to universities around the country. It would be a very positive outcome if it could be achieved and accommodated within the budget cycle.  My second point is on the funding for the local improvement scheme, LIS. Anyone who has served as a county councillor will know the importance of the scheme in our rural areas. It is always oversubscribed and is of huge benefit to those who avail of it. People really appreciate it. It is bread-and-butter basic work and delivery for communities, rural communities, farmers and people in rural areas. From speaking to many county councillors, I know they would all like to see more funding for the LIS. This comes up regularly. I met county councillors in Mayo recently. The overwhelming ask among everything else was that more funding would be made available for the LIS road scheme. I ask again that ahead of the budget, the Government provide additional funding through the relevant Ministries to make sure that local authorities are well resourced and funded to make sure that we look after people in rural areas who are looking for roads to be done under the LIS. I would appreciate support on that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aubrey McCarthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Aubrey McCarthy  I will mention a recent ESRI report, published earlier this month, that describes how 200,000 children in Ireland are living below the poverty line. According to the report, when housing costs are taken into account, that brings the figure to over 260,000. This happened in a year when the average income went up by 4% and at the very top it went up by 7%. As Community Foundation Ireland recently said, \"a rising tide does not lift all boats.\" The youngest children are hit the hardest. When we take into account housing costs, poverty in families whose youngest child is five or under has increased from 20% to over 26%, so that is one in four children. The ESRI has found that most parents are shielding their children by going without, but one in ten children are going without basic necessities that their classmates take for granted. I have brought this up many times in the House, but to have had 5,700 children on the emergency accommodation list in July was unforgivable.  The House will know I have worked in the homelessness sector for over 20 years and I have seen the necessity of food banks. I have seen families come down to our homeless caf\u00e9, the Lighthouse on Pearse Street. These are decent, ordinary families but they need to make ends meet, so we have to help them. I want to acknowledge the teachers, family support workers and homeless services that are holding these children up every day. However, we cannot make up an income gap. Only the Government can. The Government's target is to cut child poverty from the present 8% to 3% by 2030. The ESRI points out that at the moment, we are very far from that.  However, the ESRI has proposed a solution. It has suggested a means-tested second tier of child benefit. The ESRI says this would reduce child poverty more effectively per euro than increasing existing supports because many low-income families are not eligible to even take up the new increased supports. The budget is on 6 October, 13 days from now, so I ask the Leader to invite the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Calleary, to the House before budget day to ask him if a second tier of child benefit will be considered in budget 2027. If not, what will get us from the current 8% to 3%? Last year's budget committed \u20ac681 million to cutting VAT on hospitality. I love a nice coffee and a nice toastie but it should never come at the expense of supporting children. A child who is five today will be nine in 2030, so childhood does not wait for the target.  Prosperity that skips children is not prosperity, it will just be a good average. I ask the Leader to consider that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Murphy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Conor-Murphy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Conor Murphy  I have raised the issues and challenges faced by cross-Border workers many times in the Seanad Chamber. They are a significant impediment to the growing all-Ireland economy and the prosperity across the island that we wish to see. Those challenges have been exacerbated by the Brexit experience, by the fact that the North was taken out of the European Union by the British Government against its own democratic wishes. The pandemic and the change in working conditions and arrangements have also added to some of the challenges. I have proposed that the Seanad Public Consultation Committee would do a consultation on a range of matters facing cross-Border workers. As part of the British-Irish summit in March, there was a commitment to look at the double taxation convention. I am pleased that my colleague, Caoimhe Archibald MLA, the Minister for the economy in the North has offered her support to this project to try to find some relief for cross-Border workers. I am pleased to hear from the British Treasury that a new convention is imminent. It will contain bespoke provisions for cross-Border workers, which are intended to provide greater certainty for workers and employers, reduce the need to engage with both tax administrations and lessen the payroll, reporting and double taxation relief burdens that can arise under the current arrangements. The plan is that this should make it easier for employers to offer flexible cross-Border working arrangements and reduce any burdens from tax administrations as a barrier to labour mobility. This is good news and I very much welcome it. We have been pressing for it for some time. The Government had committed over many years to making progress in this area. I am pleased work has been done with Treasury to try to move the issue forward. Something which is a significant impediment to developing the all-Ireland economy is finally being tackled, with real progress being reported. Of course, there are much wider issues than simply taxation. There are issues with accessing social protection, recognition of qualifications, and workers' rights. I have proposed that the Seanad Public Consultation Committee would do a piece of work examining some of the issues that arise from this. Nonetheless, it will be very welcome news to people who do work North to South, or South to North, that progress is being made by both Governments on this. I ask the Leader to request the Minister for Finance to come before the Seanad at the earliest opportunity to give us an update on these matters and what more can be done. There was a plan to look at this double taxation issue as a forerunner to many other matters being resolved. I am keen to see further progress in this regard. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patricia Stephenson","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Patricia Stephenson  I want to raise the serious concern around the glacial pace at which the new mother and baby mental health unit is progressing. We have reporting today from The Journal that nearly ten years after the unit was first recommended in 2017, a decision has yet to be made on where to locate the unit on the grounds of St. Vincent's. That is almost ten years, which is completely unacceptable. It is also an indictment of the State's approach and attitude to maternal mental health. Multiple feasibility studies have been conducted yet there is no progress on a location. It is really beyond belief. It is a sign that we are once again failing women and mothers in Ireland. The establishment of a fully resourced, multidisciplinary mental health unit was an explicit promise in the national maternity strategy published a decade ago. The absence of this unit means the Government is continuing to fail pregnant women and new mothers with mental health difficulties. It means that women experiencing severe mental health issues during pregnancy or post-partum are often treated in general adult psychiatric settings. It means those women are separated from their babies. Despite perinatal mental health difficulties affecting up to one in five women during pregnancy and in the first year after birth, perinatal care in Ireland remains horribly under-developed. I repeat the figure of one in five. Reports suggest women in crisis wait over a month for a first appointment, with others having to drive hours and hours to be seen by one of the only six specialist hubs in the State. Those living in rural or harder to reach areas have to drive hours to access this, with their baby in tow. Further reporting from The Journal notes that hospitals and specialist perinatal mental health services are having to restrict their acceptance criteria due to increased demand. Critical gaps in support mean that women are falling through the cracks and we know this care is actually life-saving. I urge the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, at her meeting with the HSE and stakeholders this month, to do everything within the Government's power to expedite the delivery of this unit. It is incredibly long overdue.  We also need a more holistic approach to post-natal care in Ireland more generally, in line with the Year of Care campaign which has been calling for year-long, comprehensive post-natal support for mothers. Without this, we are not doing enough for new mothers and their children in Ireland. It is the glacial pace of so many of these things. We have good commitments around women's healthcare but their implementation is so incredibly slow. We are 50% of the population; we deserve access to the best. We keep reading about how well the country is doing, our great tax draw-downs and fantastic things, yet these basics, the bread-and-butter care that every woman in Ireland deserves, are not being delivered. I would love to have a debate around that issue. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Teresa Costello","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Teresa-Costello.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Teresa-Costello.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Teresa Costello  I want to raise the growing problem of illegal dumping across the Dublin South-West area. Over the past couple of weeks in particular we have seen significant amounts of waste being dumped in our communities on housing estates. One pattern that is becoming increasingly noticeable is the use of skip bags. Only yesterday, a large skip bag filled with waste was dumped close to houses in Aylesbury. This morning I got a report of a skip bag that was burned on an estate in Tallaght-Belgard. Over the past couple of weeks, I have been getting reports of dumped skip bags in areas such as Knocklyon, Springfield, Firhouse, and Kilnamanagh. These are all areas where the residents work tirelessly to keep the standards high and their communities really clean. To those dumping, shame on them. They are undoing the really hard work of residents.  We need to look at regulation of skip bags themselves. These bags are relatively inexpensive and can hold a substantial amount of waste. Unlike hiring a conventional skip, a person can purchase a skip bag from a retail outlet without creating a clear record linking the bag to the purchaser. Two changes should be examined. Skip bags should have to be registered and booked for collection by an authorised waste collector in a similar manner to a conventional skip. Second, every skip bag sold should have a unique barcode or identification number with sufficient traceability to identify the purchaser or registered user if that bag subsequently turns up dumped illegally. At present, the council staff investigate dumped material for evidence but it can be hard if there is no personal information. The issue of illegal dumping in our areas and communities warrants a debate with the Minister. I call on the Minister to come into the House to discuss the scourge of illegal dumping in our areas. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Manus Boyle","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Manus-Boyle.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Manus-Boyle.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Manus Boyle  I fully support the comments of my colleague Senator Duffy on local improvement schemes. Every local councillor in Donegal would feel the same; it is all about getting more money for lanes, which are important to the people of Donegal, as we know. Another issue I want to take up today is Irish Water. Through the summer my office was busy, as were those of the councillors of every party all over Donegal, dealing with problems with Irish Water, particularly in Inishowen, Burnfoot, Teelin, Copany, Clogher and Leghowney to name but a few. The staff on the ground are absolutely excellent when we get them. We can ring them and they are out doing the job. The infrastructure we have in Donegal is ancient and really needs to be prioritised. I ask to get a Minister in here to have a debate on Irish Water and its priorities moving forward. Where does Donegal stand on the priority list? What is the list of works that need to be done for Donegal? It is crucial and people deserve water. We are so lucky we have the Wild Atlantic Way now and a lot of tourists. It is great that they are coming in the summer time but they do not have water to flush toilets. It is an urgent issue that we really need to address. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Victor Boyhan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Victor-Boyhan.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Victor Boyhan  I wish the Taoiseach, and indeed the Minister, Deputy McEntee well in New York.  I was thinking of that this morning and of the significance in terms of our migration and immigration policy, our history of forced emigration, how families were forced to leave here, and the reception they may have received in Liverpool, London, Boston, Manhattan or New York. Then I thought what a difference. We would have seen, or people would have known and reported sightings in London at guesthouses of certain signs. A father and his son of 17 were walking in London and they saw a sign that said \"No pets, no blacks and no Irish\". The 17-year-old son was also looking for work and asked what all that meant and the father really could not communicate. There was that great sense of anxiety and disappointment. How do you explain to a 17-year-old with aspirations and dreams that this is what is happening? We know what happened to the many people who did not survive the coffin ships that went to New York, where the Taoiseach will be today, and other places. We know how many of those people were put into various categories and how some were rejected and turned back to the sea.  You could ask what we have learned from all that and how it impacts on us today, as people with a similar plight who have been forced to leave their countries come to Ireland. What reception do we give them? I will leave the House with that thought. It is not a very good one. It is not one where we can stand up with a good track record. The Minister, Deputy McEntee, will be going to the site of the Twin Towers today or tomorrow. She will be laying a wreath and paying respect on behalf of the Government. One of the things she will see there is the massive place of so many Irish names of people who were at the front line of the emergency services on that terrible day. Again, there is that link between the Irish and America. We have a lot to learn. I wish the Taoiseach well in his engagement with the Mayor of New York and others and I have no doubt he will do a great service.  I will finish by asking about something which I know is of huge interest to the Leader. We need to address the matter of the undocumented Irish in America. I hope that will be raised by the Taoiseach and the Minister for foreign affairs and I ask that we prioritise a debate on the undocumented Irish who cannot return home even if they want to. They cannot come home with dollars in their pocket because they are undocumented. What works here and is applied here must be applied there. Let us have a bigger and a more open heart. Let us think about the Irish who are trapped outside this country, and those from so many other countries who are fleeing those countries, are trapped and not necessarily getting a warm reception, based on the experience we have had ourselves. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Daly.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Paul-Daly.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Paul Daly  Unfortunately, I could not be here yesterday so I want to be associated with the wishes of sympathy to the Bonner family and to my friend and colleague Senator Craughwell on the passing of his wife. Comhbhr\u00f3n \u00f3 chro\u00ed leat, a chara.  I raise the possibility of the Leader organising a debate with the Minister for agriculture on a couple of issues that have come to the fore over the summer. One is the decision by Brittany Ferries to cease the transportation of live animals, which is a vital pathway for our calf trade to continental Europe. This will show itself as a major issue with the calving season commencing this autumn and especially next spring. The Minister might come to the House and fill us in on where the alternatives are on that.  The other matter comes on the back of what was a fantastic summer weather-wise. It was not fantastic for everybody as we have a serious problem with drought - not the failure of crops but a lack of yield as well as grass burning up. It is from Portlaoise down. The south of the country seems to be the problem. There was a recent Teagasc survey on fodder for the coming winter and the result of that is there is enough fodder in the country to cover the winter but it may not be located where it is needed. We may need to introduce a transportation scheme or a redistribution scheme of some sort to get the fodder from where it is available to where it is going to be most needed over the coming winter.  Those matters, coupled with the big ticket item of the multi-annual financial framework and ongoing CAP negotiations, mean it would be appropriate for the Minister to brief the House. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gareth Scahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Gareth Scahill  I too was not available yesterday but I would like to be associated with the condolences to Senator Craughwell on the passing of his wife Helen. May she rest in peace.  There are a number of issues I would like to raise. I could talk about the ongoing difficulties with school transport, the serious concerns across rural Ireland about synthetic and semi-synthetic cannabinoid vapes and the pressures on our National Educational Psychological Service, especially the lack of an educational psychologist available to schools in County Roscommon.  The main matter I wish to raise is women's health and I ask the Leader to facilitate a debate in the House on the subject. Senators Maria Byrne, Costello, Cosgrove, Nelson Murray and Harmon, to name a few, have raised multiple women's health issues but it is also important that men speak about them as well. Women's health affects our wives, daughters, mothers and sisters and it should be a conversation we all participate in, not just the ladies in this House. One particular issue I would like to examine is breast density and BreastCheck. Dense breast tissue can make cancers more difficult to detect on a mammogram and is associated with increased breast cancer risk, yet BreastCheck does not currently measure or report breast density to women.  I also mention something I raised last year following the Young Scientist awards - two remarkable young ladies from Col\u00e1iste Mhuire in Ballygar, Zofia and Emma, whose project was entitled \"Raising Awareness of Girls\u2019 Menstrual Disorders and Health\". Their research looked at conditions like endometriosis which the Minister, Deputy Carroll MacNeill, has spent significant time on in recent months. They also looked at PCOS and ovarian cysts. More importantly, they asked young women what they knew and 82% of those surveyed felt menstrual health was not spoken about enough, while 79% wanted to know more about women's reproductive health. That should tell us all something. I am asking for a dedicated debate on women's health. I support Senator Stephenson's call for a debate. Both topics raised this morning could run in conjunction but the debate I am calling for would cover screening, early detection, menstrual and reproductive health, endometriosis and other conditions but also, crucially, education and awareness among both women and men. Women's health should not be regarded as a women-only conversation. It is a health issue and something we can all participate in. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pauline Tully","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Pauline Tully  September is Sepsis Awareness Month so I want to raise sepsis awareness, which I have raised before here. It is a really important issue to raise regularly because it is the biggest killer in Ireland and in the world. More people die from it than from heart attacks, AIDS, lung cancer, breast cancer, Covid and car accidents combined. About 20% of people who contract sepsis die from it. About 20% of those are children, so it affects people of all ages. Even those who do not die experience long-term effects that can reoccur over the years.  I commend the work done by North East Sepsis Awareness, NESA, which is a campaign that was launched roughly a year ago. It has done Trojan work since then to raise awareness about sepsis. It was formed by Hannah Tormey and Caithriona Flanagan, both of whom have experience of sepsis within their families. They have attended events and given talks to different organisations. They have done wonderful work and in fact they are doing the HSE's work for it. The HSE needs to be much more proactive. I acknowledge the action on sepsis five-year strategy was launched last week by the Minister and the HSE. I want to be sure the resources are made available to ensure that strategy is implemented between now and 2030 but a lot more needs to be done on the ground to make people aware of the symptoms of sepsis so they can ask for tests or have it considered. More importantly, medical personnel, especially in our emergency departments, need to be aware and need to be constantly asking could this be sepsis, doing the test to see and then taking action if it is.  It would prevent so many deaths. The work of NESA on its own in the last year has prevented deaths. People have come back to NESA and said that because of its campaign, they knew what the symptoms are and were able to stop someone getting seriously ill. I want to commend NESA. I call on the Minister and the HSE to do a lot more on this issue. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Maria Byrne  I would like to be associated with the expressions of sympathy to our colleague, Senator Craughwell, on the passing of his wife, Helen, and also to the Bonner family. I knew Senator Bonner. May they rest in peace.  I am raising the plight of pubs and publicans. As the Leader is aware, I come from a publican background. More than 2,200 pubs have closed since 2005. That is a decline of 25%. In my county of Limerick, over 40% of pubs have closed. In Dublin that figure is 1%. That 40% versus 1% is a startling figure. The local pub is a social anchor. It is where everything happens, from the GAA after the match to weddings and funerals. It is part of our social fabric. Four people in five believe the Government should take action in protecting our pubs in budget 2027. The cost of doing business has gone up. Energy costs, labour costs and water costs have all gone up for publicans and many are operating on a margin of less than 1%. I accept that excise duty has not increased since 2014 but margins are very tight for many publicans. I am talking about the small rural and local publicans in cities and towns. The 64% of pubs that do not serve food did not benefit from the 9% VAT rate and without targeted fiscal support we risk triggering an avalanche of further closures. The Vintners Federation of Ireland, VFI, has brought forward an on-trade sustainability scheme. It is a targeted tax credit based on verified supply chain costs of draught products capped at \u20ac20,000 per premises and it is specifically designed to support smaller, local pubs. The Government already uses tax credits to support film production, digital gaming and unscripted television production. The pub receives nothing. It is something that would be in line with what is happening in other industries. The proposal is not an excise rebate or reduction. It does not alter excise duty and has been specifically designed to comply with the EU alcohol structured directive. I would like for the Leader to support this and contact the Minister, Deputy Burke, and the Government in relation to this. I believe none of us want to see the fabric of society closing down. In France, they are now trying to reopen caf\u00e9s that have closed down. Once a pub closes, I believe it will never open its doors again so I am looking for the Leader's support. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Laura Harmon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Laura Harmon  I want to raise the issue of personal leave for injuries for teachers and special needs assistants, SNAs. I had legislation that was debated on Second Stage in this House that was supported by the Government on Second Stage but we have heard nothing from the Minister for education in relation to this. Thousands of teachers and SNAs are affected if they are injured in the classroom. Many are left without proper pay and supports. Sophie Cole is one example. I have been campaigning alongside her. She was a teacher from Carrigaline in County Cork, and she was left without proper supports and at a financial loss due to her injury in the classroom. I will be bringing my legislation forward. We have not seen any counterproposal from the Government so I am assuming the Government will support my legislation. We absolutely need to get this issue addressed. I have been working with the Irish National Teachers Organisation, INTO, and Forsa trade unions in relation to it also.  I also want to raise this issue, which has been raised here this morning and extensively by my colleague, Senator Nessa Cosgrove, in relation to breast density. Women deserve to know if they have dense breasts. If they have dense breasts, they are more likely to develop cancer. This will often get missed on mammograms. This is about public information. People have a right to know about their own health information. We need to see the Minister act on this. We need a solution where people are getting adequate screening. This is about health, but it is also about life preservation as well. I have been speaking to a woman called Laurna Quirke, who is from Donoughmore in County Cork, in relation to her journey with breast cancer and the fact that her breast density was not detected. We need to act on this and we need to see more action from the Minister for Health. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gerard P. Craughwell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerard-P-Craughwell.S.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Gerard-P-Craughwell.S.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Gerard P. Craughwell  Yesterday I said I would revisit some of the issues my family faced as my wife faced the end of her life. Helen was an extraordinarily strong person. Once diagnosed, she wanted to ensure that the family was unburdened with respect to making decisions for her. This brought about looking into two things in particular: the enduring power of attorney and the advance health declaration, AHD, form.  Today, I want to speak about the enduring power of attorney. Enduring power of attorney, EPA, is one of the most important legal documents a person can make. Under the Assisted Decision-Making (Capacity) Act 2015, it allows someone to appoint a trusted person to manage their affairs if they lose capacity in the future. It is fundamentally about dignity, independence and preserving a person's voice in decisions that affect their life. I can assure the Members of the House that when you sit down with a family member to complete these forms, it is devastating stuff you have to deal with. You are talking about the end of life. Any one of us in this room can have a stroke in two minutes and be unable to make a decision ever again. Any one of us can find ourselves unconscious in a hospital and somebody has to make decisions for you. I come from a family of 11 and, God help us, if we had to make a decision for somebody it would take the United Nations to come in and find peace among us. It is a hugely important thing.  However, an enduring power of health form is quite complex. The process involves solicitors, medical assessments, prescribed legal forms, notification requirements and registration with the Decision Support Service, DSS, who I must say are extraordinary people when it comes to filling in this form. The safeguards are important, but they create a lengthy and often costly process for families. There are also significant medical requirements. Capacity must be assessed when the EPA is created and again when it is activated. The activation series can be really problematic. For somebody with dementia, two medical professionals are required to say the person no longer has capacity. A person with dementia can have no capacity now and in an hour's time they can have capacity. So, that creates a huge problem.  Most concerning are the practical barriers. The DSS is experiencing substantial delays, with applications taking months to process. The Law Society has warned that the system is struggling with activation numbers far below those under the previous regime and thousands of applicants are still awaiting completion. Costs can also run into several hundred euro before the EPA is even enforced. Only 8% of the population have an EPA in place. None of this is an argument for removing safeguards. These are about the essentials but when a system designed to protect vulnerable people becomes so slow, expensive and difficult that relatively few citizens have an EPA in place, we must ask whether the balance is right. We need a system that protects people while also making it easier for them to plan for their future. I urge the House to support measures to simplify the process, reduce the delays and ensure that decision support services are there and resourced.  I cannot begin to say how important it is. I see the Visitors Gallery is full today. I am speaking to those present today and about their friends and relatives. I cannot begin to explain how important it is to have an AHD in place and to have an EPA. When the time comes, which will come to us all, when you are incapable of making a decision on your own, it is vitally important that you have somebody you trust to make those decisions for you. The AHD form, which I will deal with tomorrow, is massively important when it comes to how you will be treated in the final days of your life. I cannot begin to explain the courage my wife showed as she faced the end of her life.  I pray she rests in peace and thank her for the strength she had as she departed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank the Senator. Again, condolences on your sad loss. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gerard P. Craughwell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerard-P-Craughwell.S.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Gerard-P-Craughwell.S.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Gerard P. Craughwell  I apologise for going over time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  You are grand. Anois, an Seanad\u00f3ir Andrews. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  I want to raise serious questions about the Irish Wheelchair Association, IWA, and IWA-Sport's decision to send an Irish wheelchair basketball team to the European championships division B in Switzerland where Ireland is due to play Israel. This team did not qualify for this tournament. Ireland was invited. It could have easily refused. I cannot imagine what the officials were thinking when they accepted this particular invite. The IWA said its board unanimously approved participation following a robust process. However, basic questions remain unanswered. When was Ireland invited? When did the IWA know Israel was participating? What alternatives were considered, including declining the invitation? What external advice was sought? The IWA has responded by citing the confidentiality of board discussions, but this is a major national charity receiving significant public funding. Board confidentiality cannot be used as a blanket response to legitimate questions about how significant decisions were made.  There are also serious questions about fundraising for this invite. The public was asked to financially support Ireland's participation yet the original fundraising page merely stated that Ireland would compete against three other nations. It did not name Israel as one of those three nations. Only after I challenged this omission was the page amended. That raises serious and legitimate questions about whether there was an element of deception in how funds were sought. If the IWA rejects that suggestion, it should explain why Israel was initially omitted.  There is an important equality issue here as well. This issue should not receive less scrutiny because it is a wheelchair basketball team rather than a football team. Disability sports should not be patronised or held to a different standard. The Stop the Game campaign is challenging Ireland's football fixtures against Israel. This deserves the same seriousness and scrutiny we would expect if it involved the FAI and a senior football team. Meanwhile, more than 900 wheelchairs donated for injured and disabled children in Gaza are sitting in Jordan, unable to reach them amid Israeli restrictions on aid deliveries.  The IWA provides essential services, partly because of gaps in State provision. That does not absolve the Government from questioning and challenging the IWA. I am asking the Minister with responsibility for sport to seek answers from the IWA and IWA-Sport. Public funding must come with public accountability. If this process was genuinely robust, the IWA would be able to explain what that process was. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank the Senator. That might be an issue for a Commencement matter. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Nessa Cosgrove  Yesterday, there was a report by the National Youth Council of Ireland, NYCI, that found that seven out of ten young people feel they want to leave Ireland. Those figures are not just a lifestyle choice, which is very obvious from the research it did. It previously carried out research that found that nine out of ten young people feel the employment opportunities are not there for them, which is a shocking statistic. The NYCI did that report and I hope it will be considered in the budget. We could have a debate around this but particularly about keeping young people in our country. I introduced a Bill last year on the abolition of some minimum rates of pay, but unfortunately it was shot down. One of the reasons that is cited in this recent report is pay. Because of the cost-of-living crisis, young people feel they have no quality of life here because they are on low wages. That is one thing for which they are calling. Another thing they are calling for in this report is that the lower rates of jobseeker's allowance for underage groups would be the same so that everyone would have the same rate of pay for jobseeker's allowance. They also called for free public transport for under-25s. I think these are very reasonable measures. We can see the success of targeted measures. Credit has to be given for targeting free public transport for those aged under eight. That worked really well. We have an opportunity here to revisit the Bill I brought in about the abolition of sub-minimum rates of pay for young people. Trade unions are behind this. This statistic shows that young people are choosing to live abroad because the wages are not meeting the cost of housing and cost of living here. We have to acknowledge that in this House. I would love to have further debate about it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sharon Keogan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Sharon Keogan  I, too, want to raise the issue The Irish Times covered, and which my colleague has covered as well, of the tens of thousands of Irish people who are considering emigration. In February of last year, I raised the alarm bell on this issue and since then, well over 62,000 people have left the country. Let me say that again; it is over 62,000. That is the population of Drogheda or Dundalk. In fact, let me give the Leader another visual. We were all touched this year to see the images of Mayo winning the Sam Maguire Cup and the crowds in Croke Park cheering and singing. Now, I want the Leader to imagine Croke Park empty and silent because that is the number of people who have left in the past year alone. That is the number of people we have failed. Is this an abject failure by the Government? Let me be absolutely clear; it is. If we have a bumper surplus budget and if GDP and growth are up, why in God's name is this happening? We have failed young people on housing. We have failed to develop a real economy in industries that can employ them. We have failed to build liveable towns and cities where they can work and raise families. Ultimately, we have failed to deliver a liveable nation. On the flip side, when we question the open-door policy madness our Government calls an immigration policy, we are told that we need workers. We had the workers. As many as 600,000 working Irish people have left the State in the last two decades. These were mostly educated young people on whose education and training we spent billions of euro, and what do we do? We happily ask them to live with their parents until they are 40 if they are not happy to have their pay cheques extorted by rents and high bills. We say, \"If you don't like it, tough - pack your bags and leave\". We could do a hell of a lot better for our young people in this nation. We certainly need to do that because we are losing them. We are paying our education system to take our young people out of this country. What is happening is scandalous. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanne Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joanne Collins  As the Leader knows, I have stood many times in this Chamber and argued and advocated to reduce the cost of petrol and diesel. I stood in Foynes for five days with the protesters. I want to focus on home heating oil today. There was a debate in the D\u00e1il yesterday and my colleague, Deputy Doherty, brought legislation through.  Home heating oil has never been reduced. Not one cent has ever come off it. It disproportionately affects rural Ireland because in rural Ireland, there is no other choice. There is no gas network. People cannot hook up to a grid. A lovely lady came into my office last week who I am going to call \"Margaret\". She lives in County Limerick. She has an adult child with disabilities. She runs her house on home heating oil but she has no immersion switch. Her home heating oil has to do all year for hot water and heat. As Members can imagine, when people have a child with disabilities, they need a little bit extra in the house. I am quite happy to wrap a blanket around myself if I get cold, but some people need it. They have to have that heat even just for running a bath. The oil is on all the time to heat the water, wash the dishes, run a bath and heat the home. She cried in my office because she just cannot afford to put any more oil into her house. It is absolutely heartbreaking to see this.  I am asking and pleading. There is still time because the vote in the D\u00e1il is not until this evening. I ask the Leader to go to the Government TDs and backbenchers, the Minister's backbenchers and Independents, and ask them to just do the right thing. I have heard about how the budget is in two weeks\u2019 time. I really hope something is done in the budget, but I would also hope that if something is to be done in the budget - it is only two weeks away - we tell the people so that they do not go and spend every penny they have in the bank today getting oil because it is nearly gone. Tell them that in two weeks\u2019 time, there is going to be a reduction. I have a feeling it is not going to be enough. I plead with the Leader today to do the right thing. How can he go back to his constituency on Thursday evening or Friday and say, \"I am sorry; you are still going to pay\". A fill of oil went up \u20ac80 overnight. It just cannot keep going up. People cannot afford it. Again, I am sorry; it is disproportionate when it comes to rural Ireland because there is no other choice. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sarah O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Sarah O'Reilly  I, too, want to talk about energy costs today. Ireland has the highest electricity prices in Europe. Families are feeling it every time a bill comes through the door.  Where is the Minister for energy? He has not met the four largest energy suppliers in Ireland in the past year. He met Electric Ireland, Bord G\u00e1is, SSE Airtricity and Energia once in September 2025. That needs to be addressed. Energy costs are putting enormous pressure on households. The Minister should sit across the table from these companies and ask what is driving the prices and what can be done about them. Is it too much to expect that from a Minister for energy?  The other question I would put to him is: why are ordinary households are being asked to carry the cost of an energy system increasingly geared towards massive data centres? Data centres used up 22% of Ireland's metered electricity in 2024. That is more electricity than every urban household in the country combined. Unlike normal households, data centres get a cheaper commercial rate of electricity. If a family keeps a shower going for five minutes, they have to pay for it, but the more energy gobbled up by the data centres the better rate they get. The Government is essentially saying to households, \"Here is your electricity bill and here is the bill for the Silicone Valley business down the road\". People want the Government to prioritise families, and I want the Government to prioritise families and households and not billion euro corporations. I ask the Minister to come to the House for statements on energy and to outline his plans to meet the energy companies.  I would like to support Senators Cosgrove and Keogan. I watched the reports of young people leaving the country. It is extremely sad. My kids are in Canada. It like what happened after the 2008 when there was a wave of sadness. I hope we can put in place something to keep young people in their own country. Other countries like Canada and Australia value their worth. We should value their worth more. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Cathal Byrne  I would like to offer my condolences to Senator Craughwell and his family on the sad passing of his wife.  I want to speak about the school bus transport scheme, in particular some of the anomalies in how the scheme is administered that appear consistently and repeatedly year after year. I want in particular to addreess a point I raised in the Chamber on a previous occasion. There is anomaly in Wexford town with students who were unable to attain a secondary school place in the town and had to take a school place in a different town, New Ross, but because they were not attending their closest local school they were ineligible to apply for a school bus ticket, be that concessionary or non-concessionary. At a time the Government is providing approximately \u20ac650 million for the scheme, students who, through no fault of their or their families, are unable to access secondary school place could at least be given a school bus pass. The budget needs to examine the entire school bus transport model, how it operates and how these type of anomalies can be ironed out for not only these children but other children who will be affected in the future. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eileen Flynn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eileen-Flynn.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Eileen-Flynn.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Eileen Flynn  I welcome the review of the hot school meals scheme for children. I encourage the Minister to examine the timing of the lunches for children. Many are expected to have a hot meal at 11 a.m. The Minister needs to look into that.  I heard many of my colleagues speak about how young people have to leave the country. I have been in contact with numerous youth organisations over the past two weeks. They are extremely worried about funding for communities and young people in the country. We hear about young people leaving the country, but the Government need to invest in young people in the budget in two weeks. They are the most vulnerable people in our society. So much is expected of young people in today's Ireland and there is no hope. One youth worker said to me there is no hope to be able to look after our young people. We tend to put young people down and look at them as being the problem while we invest in our garda\u00ed, which I welcome - we need garda\u00ed on the streets. We need to invest in youth services. I am a qualified youth worker. I was first introduced to politics through youth work. It is informal education and sets up young people for life. It educates them around drugs, responsibilities and opens up many doors of opportunities for young people. The House should write to the Minister collectively - I can draft a letter - to ask that the most vulnerable people in our society, that is, young people between the ages of ten and 25, are not forgotten about in the budget. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"R\u00f3n\u00e1n Mullen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/R\u00f3n\u00e1n-Mullen.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"R\u00f3n\u00e1n-Mullen.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator R\u00f3n\u00e1n Mullen  The Association of Lactation Consultants in Ireland receives, I gather, \u20ac100,000 a year from the HSE. It recently advertised a conference in Galway that would be addressed by an American gentleman, Jacob Engelsman, on the subject of lactation support for gender diverse families. I thought at first it might be about women who, in an attempt to transform into maleness, had compromised their ability to breastfeed any children they had. That would be problematic enough because Mr. Engelsman has been involved in advising mentally unwell women who want to bind their breasts for hours at a time on how they can do that and breastfeed. We are a long way from a child's best interests there. It is actually worse. This gentleman has spoken at conferences on the subject of inducing lactation. In other words, biological males, through some kind of hormonal treatment, would try to produce something akin to breastmilk. The reason for that attempt is to assert their feelings of parenthood. He referenced gender euphoria or the unique experience of it. He cited curiosity, fun or sexual gratification. Brenda Power, in the Daily Mail , asked the obvious question which is whether any parent who prioritises their own feelings and desire for euphoria over a baby's needs is potentially guilty of child abuse.  What worries me is the response of the HSE when asked about this. It said it was in line with equality legislation and inclusion strategies. That is a disgraceful response from the organisation responsible for delivering healthcare in this country. It is an astounding lack of good stewardship. To make matters worse, the Minister for Health did not spot how unacceptable this should be and did not call it out. She is very quick, and often right, to call out problems that arise in the healthcare service. By failing to condemn that and publicly disapprove of a publicly funded organisation having a guest like that speak on a topic like that, the Minister acted as an enabler for highly ideological people in the HSE and the people they support. This is not about children's best interests. It is enabling a form of child abuse. We need to debate on this. The Minister should be called to account for this. I will write to the health committee to ask it to bring in the HSE over this. The response from the HSE and Minister is far from not being not good enough. It is a disgraceful and irresponsible response. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  I thank the Cathaoirleach and the 22 Senators who made contributions. Senator O'Loughlin referred to Chambers Ireland. A Senator raised yesterday the report launched by the Minister, Deputy Burke, during the summer on the cost of business. I understand the report had 63 recommendations. I said yesterday, and will repeat today, that I am willing to have a debate on it with the Minister. The Senator also asked for a debate on older people, including vaccination programmes for older people. We are very good about vaccinating kids across the country, but not older people. She spoke about her experience during the summer. I am more than happy to have that debate with the Minister of State with responsibility for older people.  Senator Mark Duffy spoke about supports for third level students and raised a really good idea for students, particularly in rural Ireland, who have to travel quite a distance to college simply because they cannot get accommodation. The Senator's view is that there should be a free travel pass for those who have long journeys and can prove it. That should be considered and the Minister should be open to it because we should be doing as much as we can to support affected students in third level education.  Senators Duffy and Boyle spoke about the local improvement scheme. I know from talking to councillors right across the country, but particularly in Tipperary because there are so many rural roads and so much infrastructure, that the scheme is vital. We can never allocate enough money for it to meet the demand, but certainly an increase would be very much welcomed by most councillors.  Senator Aubrey McCarthy spoke about the ESRI report that states 200,000 children, or one in five, are living below the poverty line. He has asked for a debate. I am happy to ask the Minister, Deputy Dara Calleary, for that, but he is actually coming in next Wednesday to speak about hot school meals. I am sure the Senator will be able to navigate from the subject of hot school meals to that of child benefit in that debate, and to the possibility of having a second-tier child benefit for kids whose families are finding it difficult in this cost-of-living crisis.  Senator Conor Murphy spoke about the double taxation issue for cross-Border workers. As he said, there are an awful lot of issues arising in terms of cross-Border working, including those associated with tax, social protection, education certificates and what people qualify for. An awful lot needs to be done. He is right and it is a very good idea to have the Seanad Public Consultation Committee do some work on that. I am aware the committee is meeting every week for the next number of weeks, presenting it with a good opportunity to do some work on the matter. When we talk about a united Ireland, it is important to talk about all of these challenging issues.  Senator Patricia Stephenson spoke about the mental health unit at St. Vincent's, which has been quite a long time coming. It is a very important care service for women going through pregnancy, or after pregnancy. I am not sure why there is a delay or why a decision has not been made. I have no doubt that it is very important to the Minister of State, Deputy Butler. I am happy to have a debate on health. Perhaps a Commencement matter on the issue might be more beneficial to the Senator. In fairness to the Minister of State, she has done an awful lot of work, as Minister of State with responsibility for mental health, delivering legislation and prioritising awareness of mental health. I have no doubt that she has that same passion for the area of mental health in question and for the establishment of the unit.  Senator Teresa Costello spoke about the illegal dumping in Tallaght. This seems to be a scourge around the country. She had a very good idea about skip bags because it is hard for councils to find out whose fault it is. They have to go through the dumped material and determine whether there is any personal information in it to establish who is actually responsible. Sometimes none can be found, but having something like registered skip bags or a barcode on them would be much more helpful. We will never end illegal dumping by a certain number of people. I do not know why they do it. It is hard to understand. There is so much work done by people in communities like Tallaght and towns and villages across the country to try to keep our communities nice and clean. It can be incredibly frustrating for those decent people when they see this sort of carry-on.  Senator Manus Boyle spoke about Irish Water. I am happy to have a debate with the relevant Minister, Deputy Browne, on it, possibly after the budget, I suspect. It is incredibly frustrating. The messages he was giving today are no different from what we receive from people right across the country in each constituency. We have given Irish Water more money, asked it to deliver better and to improve its communication skills, but there is still constant frustration in this regard. I am happy to have a debate on this.  Senator Victor Boyhan spoke about the Taoiseach's visit to New York and wished him well. He also spoke about the visit of the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy McEntee, to the site of the Twin Towers, where she laid a wreath. It is a really good opportunity to talk once again about the undocumented Irish in America. There is not a person in this country who does not have either a family member, neighbour or friend in America at the moment who cannot come home if a family member dies or there is something significant happening at home because of the fear of not being able to get back into America. I am sure that the Taoiseach, while he is in America, will, as he always does, try to highlight that issue for so many thousands of Irish people in America.  Senator Paul Daly asked for a debate with the Minister for agriculture. I am more than happy to request one. It is a good time for it. We have the European Presidency at the moment. The biggest issues within the European Presidency are in agriculture. The Senator and I know the Minister is very passionate about delivering on the multi-annual financial framework and CAP during his time holding the Presidency. Now that we are almost halfway through the Presidency, it is a good opportunity in this House to have a debate on those priorities the Senator outlined, whether they relate to fodder, fertiliser or the transport of live animals, which was a real issue during the summer. I am more than happy to facilitate the debate as soon as we can, possibly next week. We will try to see what we can do within the Minister's timeframe.  Senator Gareth Scahill spoke about women's health and having a debate on it. A number of other Senators spoke about this as well, in particular BreastCheck and breast density. The Senator is right. It is important that we, as men, are comfortable talking about women's health as well as women. During the previous term, I did an awful lot of work with colleagues in this House on hyperemesis, which is a very severe condition for women going through pregnancy, and on getting the drug Cariban approved. It is very helpful to women right across the country who suffer from severe illness while pregnant. We will make sure to have a debate on that with the relevant Minister.  Senator Pauline Tully spoke about Sepsis Awareness Week, something I have spoken about in the Seanad previously. I am very well aware of the condition because I contracted sepsis while in hospital. I was very lucky. As the Senator said, medical staff need to be more aware and need to be provided with more education. Often, a nurse is the first person who has to make a decision on what a condition is. I was extremely lucky that a nurse in Clonmel hospital spotted straight away that I had sepsis. Within two or three minutes, there were about ten people at the bed beside me making decisions. Awareness and education can save lives. As the Senator said, organisations in our area have saved lives. The Minister has launched the five-year strategy on sepsis. We have an opportunity to have a debate in this House on it.  Senator Maria Byrne spoke about pubs and their closure, particularly in rural areas. Over 2,000 pubs have closed and many of these were the backbone or fabric of communities and towns right across the country. We have done a lot to support rural Ireland and the industry, particularly pubs that serve food, but there is more that we can do. I totally support her call to introduce measures. The relevant Minister, Deputy Peter Burke, understands as much as the Senator and I do the importance of a pub as the nucleus of a village or town and what it means to a community. I am more than happy to support the Senator's call for supporting pubs in the budget in two weeks.  Senator Laura Harmon spoke about leave for teachers and SNAs who have been injured while working. She introduced legislation. I am not sure where it stands at the moment, but I can speak to the Minister about it and see whether she is willing to work with the Senator on it. There is always the opportunity for a Commencement matter, but we will talk to the Minister to see where we can go with that. It is not fair that people who are injured at work, particularly teachers and even more so SNAs, do not receive any supports.  Senator Gerard Craughwell spoke about enduring power of attorney and his own experience over the summer. It is incredible that only 8% of people in the country have enduring power of attorney. It is something people really do not address until they have to, so there is an opportunity to highlight the importance of acquiring the power in advance, as the Senator is doing very well. All of us, or most of us, already know who the power will relate to; we have just never got around to actually obtaining it.  To highlight that is very important.  Senator Andrews spoke about the Irish Wheelchair Association. In fairness to the Senator, I welcome this because one of the criticisms I had when this controversy started with the FAI is that it is almost like we just attack soccer and nothing else, when other organisations were playing competitive sports against certain countries, although not necessarily Israel - I will not name the sports, but one was playing against Afghanistan recently. Others were competing against Israeli competitors in different sports but no one was talking about them; it was just this attack on soccer. I agree with the Senator that everyone should be held to account in the exact same way. I welcome the fact that he has raised it.  What I would say is that to get a response like \u201cboard confidentiality\u201d does not wash. People have to say why they have made these decisions. The Irish Wheelchair Association does an incredible amount of work, as we all know from our own communities. However, it needs to be accountable for decisions like this. There might be a good reason, but we certainly have not got it yet. It is welcome that the Senator has highlighted it. As politicians, we would be sceptical when the association says that we are playing three other nations, but it does not name the nations. They might have known themselves that there could have been an issue here. It is welcome that the Senator has raised it today.  Senators Cosgrove, Keogan and O'Reilly raised the NYCI report on the number of people leaving the country. I accept that a lot of people, young people in particular, leave the country. The majority of those who leave this country leave for a short time and then come back. The number of people who are coming back to this country as Irish citizens after being away for three, five or seven years is increasing year on year.  Senator Cosgrove referred to people leaving this country because there is no hope and nothing here for them. She and I are, I suspect, of a similar age. We came out of college just before the crash started and everything fell apart. People had to leave the country because there was no work, and there was nothing they could do. There are work opportunities for everyone in this country at the moment, and we are lucky on that point. There are obviously challenges - housing is one of them - but if the suggestion is that 62,000 people are leaving this country simply because the country is failing them, I just do not believe or accept that. Young people want to better themselves and have a broader outlook on life, and travelling is a really good element of that at a young age. I hope that, just like in recent years, a lot of people are coming home. Those people who are leaving this year will also come home, and whether that is in one, three, five or seven years, they will always be welcome to come home.  Senator Collins spoke about fuel costs, in particular the cost of home heating oil, which has increased dramatically in the past year. We all talk about how 1,000 litres was about \u20ac900 a year ago, but now it is \u20ac1,600, \u20ac1,700 or \u20ac1,800. However, we also need to be realistic. That increase did not happen because of the Government. We did not double the price of it. The price has doubled because of the war in the Middle East and the closure of the Strait of Hormuz. There are things that we can do, and I am hopeful that the Minister for Finance, Deputy Simon Harris, will make decisions on home heating and fuel costs in the budget that will support people. We understand what needs to be done, but we also have to be realistic. We cannot just cut back that increase of 100% overnight. It is just not going to happen. However, we will be there to support people, just like we were there in April with a budget that was higher than any other budget in Europe at \u20ac750 million, a budget that was not supported by Sinn F\u00e9in in the D\u00e1il. That helped and supported people. Because we have had a surplus over the past number of years, we are in a position to do some of the things that the Senator is asking us to do. We would not be in that position if we had just spent all that money in the previous budget. However, there has to be a bit of realism in terms of what a government can and cannot do in supporting fuel costs, including heating oil. Some of the increases are just so vast and out of control. Every country is managing them. At the moment, petrol in France is \u20ac2.50 a litre. We are not alone in these challenges.  Senator Byrne raised the school bus transport scheme. He outlined a really obvious thing that needs to be changed. If a child who applies for their nearest school and cannot get a place through no fault of their own and then has to go to a different school, that should not preclude them from qualifying for a free bus pass. They wanted to go to the nearest school, but the State could not provide it, so they had to go to a different school. Why would they be doubly punished by not having a school pass because they did not go to the closest school? It was not their fault. The Senator has spoken about this several times in the House. School buses always come up at this time of year, as we know, but it seems blatantly obvious that this should be changed. It does not cost anything or do anything; it is just a change in the terms and conditions when someone applies for a bus pass. I know the Senator will speak to the Minister, and I am more than happy to speak to her on his behalf.  Senator Flynn raised the hot school meals scheme. As I said earlier, we will have a debate on that next Wednesday with the Minister for Social Protection. The Senator can raise the issue of the timing of hot meals and the other issues she brought up, such as whether people should have the option of cold meals and things like that. It will be a good opportunity to speak about that.  Senator R\u00f3n\u00e1n Mullen spoke about the association of lactation and a person. I did not catch the name, but the person was brought to speak in support of the----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"R\u00f3n\u00e1n Mullen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/R\u00f3n\u00e1n-Mullen.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"R\u00f3n\u00e1n-Mullen.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator R\u00f3n\u00e1n Mullen  It did not go ahead. There was a protest. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  Did it not go ahead? He was simply invited. I have never heard of that organisation before. I do not know the person at all. If what the Senator is saying is true, I think the majority of people will be uncomfortable about those sorts of things happening. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"R\u00f3n\u00e1n Mullen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/R\u00f3n\u00e1n-Mullen.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"R\u00f3n\u00e1n-Mullen.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator R\u00f3n\u00e1n Mullen  Not the HSE and not the Minister, it appears. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  I do not know the case in general, and I do not know the person at all. I will speak to the Minister about it. We will have a debate with her at some point in the next couple of weeks, possibly after the budget. There will be an opportunity to put that to the Minister when she is in the House. That concludes the Order of Business. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Order of Business agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionra\u00ed ar 12.57 p.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 2.08 p.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Sitting suspended at 12.57 p.m. and resumed at 2.08 p.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"An tOrd Gn\u00f3 - Order of Business"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-23\/debate\/dbsect_9","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Address to Seanad \u00c9ireann by Members of the European Parliament","counts":{"speechCount":57,"speakerCount":15},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_9","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Aodh\u00e1n \u00d3 R\u00edord\u00e1in","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Evanne N\u00ed Chuilinn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Evanne-N\u00ed-Chuilinn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Evanne-N\u00ed-Chuilinn.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Clonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","memberCode":"Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Laura Harmon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Noonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Lorraine Clifford-Lee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Lorraine-Clifford-Lee.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Lorraine-Clifford-Lee.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gerard P. Craughwell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerard-P-Craughwell.S.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Gerard-P-Craughwell.S.2014-10-10","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aubrey McCarthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I welcome everybody to our engagement with our MEPs from the Dublin European constituency, including the former Leader of the House, Regina Doherty MEP. This is part of the Seanad reform we have completed over the past few years to ensure that Europe is part of the focus of what we do. The engagement with MEPs has a central role in that link between the Seanad Chamber, Senators and Members of the European Parliament from Ireland and the wider European community.  The challenges that we face in Europe and the world are enormous in everything from the wars in the Middle East and Ukraine but also the bigger problems, including climate change. I think it was a decade ago that the Pope and the Pentagon said in the same week that climate change was a bigger threat to our security as a world than terrorism. We now also have the situation of artificial intelligence where many people are afraid for their futures and their jobs but also have concerns about how artificial intelligence will challenge us as a people. Europe has to play a leading role in that and it is not an easy challenge to get them all to agree.  Ireland's Presidency of the European Union and the MEPs' engagement here today is an important part in highlighting the central role that Europe is playing but also can play. I was at an event last night where Bertie Ahern was talking about our joining the European Union and how it transformed us over 50 years ago from an agrarian economy. There were legislators and business leaders from India trying to understand how Ireland transformed and what they could learn from us about how they can improve their economy, their society and their state for their citizens. They see us as a gateway into the European Union, not only from an economic point of view but also from a political point of view.  This engagement here today is a very important part of our engagement with Europe but also the Seanad's role when it comes to scrutiny of EU directives and all issues relating to Europe. I thank the Senators who are here today, not just from the Dublin area and also from across the country. I thank Mr. Barry Andrews, MEP; Ms Regina Doherty, MEP; and Mr. Aodh\u00e1n \u00d3 R\u00edord\u00e1in, MEP for being here as well. We will follow the format under the Standing Orders of the Seanad. In Europe they only get one or two minutes----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Regina Doherty","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Regina Doherty  If we are lucky. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  We are going to give the MEPs six times that. They will get six minutes each and then the group spokespersons will speak for five minutes in response and Members will have an opportunity to engage with questions and answers. It is meant to be robust and engaging. I really appreciate all speakers all being here. We have not done this by drawing lots or anything like that - it is based on alphabetical order. I call firstly on Mr. Barry Andrews, MEP, to address us. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Barry Andrews","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Barry Andrews  The Cathaoirleach established the context very well with the threat of AI, climate change, insecurity and war on the Continent of Europe. Lots of people have repeated this but it really does illustrate the challenge that sets the context for Ireland's Presidency. I add to that something for the overall context. Europe made a three-way bet, essentially, on American security, on Chinese supply chains and manufacturing, and on Russian fossil fuels. Each one of these bets has gone wrong, frankly, and what Europe has embarked upon now is to try to mitigate the damage that has been caused by all of the transitions that are required, whether that is by investing in security and defence at a European scale, investing in renewable energy and replacing fossil fuels, or developing European industry to compete with Chinese supply chains. That is the context in which Ireland takes up this Presidency.  It is important that we remind ourselves what those priorities are for the Irish Presidency. Security is the first one. I am happy to discuss that and take any questions on security and defence. I wrote a number of papers on Ireland's neutrality in a changing Europe. Of course, it is a difficult area for Ireland to identify as a priority, given the generational underinvestment in Irish security over the years. The second one is competitiveness. Again, it is a slight challenge for Ireland because we are an open global trading economy and the instinct at the moment is about autonomy for Europe to develop an industrial policy for Europe and that sometimes runs against our instinct for open international trade. That is a difficulty as well. Finally, the third of our priorities is in values. Values are important for Ireland. It is the rule of law in terms of how that is going to look internally but also externally.  I happen to be the chair of the development committee in the European Parliament. It is a huge honour to be a chair. We have not had a chair of a parliamentary committee in the European Parliament since the 1980s. However, unfortunately, I come to this policy area at a time when the tide is really going out on international development and on official development assistance. Most governments across the European Union are doing what the Americans have done. There is a massive retreat from development aid, from humanitarian aid and from respect for international humanitarian law. I should also mention that I am vice-chair of the delegation for relations with Palestine. Again, I know it is a subject of major interest to members of the Seanad. If there are any questions on that, I will be very happy to deal with them.  I want to make some positive comments about the European Union. We are always told about the existential threat to the EU. I have probably created some of that sense in my opening remarks. However, we have to remind ourselves that the paradox of President Trump's approach to international trade and multilateralism is that he has now made the European Union look like a reliable and trustworthy partner that is rules-based and respects partnerships. A large number of countries want to join the European Union and a large number of countries have finally signed trade agreements with the EU. For example, we completed the Mercosur trade agreement at a European level after 20 years of negotiation. We completed the India trade agreement, and it is hard to convey how big a deal that is. India is one of the most difficult trading partners to sign an agreement with. We also completed the Australian trade agreement. To underline how difficult that was, the Australian Government got a lot of criticism at home, particularly from its farming lobby, about the nature of the agreement. We have developed all of these trade agreements. There are more to come. The paradox, if I may say again, is that Donald Trump has made Europe, despite its reputation for bureaucracy and slow-moving officialdom, an attractive place for partnership. Equally, on the question of enlargement, there is a huge waiting room of countries seeking to join the EU and that is important to emphasise as well. In addition to countries in the western Balkans, Ukraine and Moldova, other countries are seeking to join the EU. That is a good sign of the health of the European Union, despite some of the negative situation about which we have heard.  The main achievement and indicator of success of the Irish Presidency will be if we can get the multi-annual financial framework, MFF, over the line. Unusually for a large institution, this is a seven-year budget. As Members and former Members of the Oireachtas, we are used to a single-year budget. That is what happens in the UK and in most countries, but the European Union has a seven-year budget. It starts in 2028. The expectation and the hope is that the Irish Presidency will be able to conclude the multi-annual financial framework discussions and negotiations by the end of the Presidency and by the end of December 2026. If we do that, reputationally this will be one of the best achievements of the Irish Presidency. It will be a very difficult thing to do but if we do it we have to remember there are four big elections happening in EU member states next year. Elections will be taking place in Poland, Italy, Spain and France, and all of them are anxious that the MFF negotiations are completed before they get into campaign mode. That is a real indication.  I will finish by saying that Ireland really punches above its weight. It is a bit of a clich\u00e9 but we are at the centre of the political world at the moment. We have had the American President here on a very successful visit. We now have the EU Presidency. We have the European Political Community coming here in November. This is a sign that Ireland is playing its role in a turbulent world. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank Mr. Andrews. I now invite Ms Regina Doherty, MEP, to speak. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Regina Doherty","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Regina Doherty  It is a real pleasure to be back here today. I thank the Seanad for the invitation. As most Senators know, I have spent a lot of my political life in this building, whether it was in the D\u00e1il in government or in the Seanad. For the last two years - it is hard to imagine it is two years - I have had the real honour of representing Dublin in the European Parliament.  I was struck when I was coming here by the thought that even though the world has intrinsically changed in the last couple of years, our job is still very much exactly the same. It is to try to represent, from our perspective, Dublin - my colleagues and I represent 1.5 million people - and to make sure we are talking about the things that are important to them and not lofty topics that we can sometimes get carried away on. Just like here, most of the work I am doing in the European Parliament happens in committee. The committees that I sit on are the Committee on the Internal Market and Consumer Protection, the Committee on Economic and Monetary Affairs, and the Committee on Employment and Social Affairs. I am the vice-chair of the Special Committee on the Housing Crisis in the European Union, which may very soon be a full committee as opposed to an emergency committee. I am also the vice-chair of the tax matters committee. I will focus on a few of the issues today that I think genuinely matter to the people we represent.  Over the last two years I have been working very hard with parents, researchers, psychologists, specialists, children and the tech companies to try to make sure we make the online world safer for our children than it has ever been. I was particularly pleased last week to see the combination of that work in the finalisation of the EU KIDS Act, although I wish to God it was called something else. For a very long time we have been trying to put pressure on parents to manage all of this themselves and it just is not fair. The proposal puts the responsibility now back, where I firmly believe it belongs, on the tech companies to make sure they are responsible for having a safe environment and one that is more appropriate from an age perspective for our children. I have got myself into trouble over this for the last while by saying a blanket ban would not work when other governments were saying they were going to do just that. However, without the changes to ensure safety by design and by default was rooted in the legislation for the tech giants, we were going to have our children, who are very intuitive, able to find back doors and side doors to get around any ban and we would not have made the place safe.  I believe that the legislation will be a game-changer. It is up to all of us to make sure that it lives up to all of our aspirations.  The second issue for the past number of years has been competitiveness, which everybody is talking about. We all know that Europe does not lack ambition. It certainly does not lack talent. However, we sometimes make things much harder for ourselves than they have to be. Our businesses have been telling us that for the past number of years. The savings and investment union, which many of us are talking about, has a real opportunity of working where the capital markets union did not. We have geopolitics to help us co-operate and work together where some of the national interests across the European Union have trumped central co-operation over the past number of years. The reality is that we need to work closer together to make sure we get proper investment for our businesses, start-ups and scale-ups, to make sure that ordinary, decent, hard-working people can get the money from Europe to invest in their businesses. We know what Irish businesses face because they tell us all the time.  Housing has been an issue that all of us have been working particularly hard on for the past 18 months. The committee was established. I thought it was very important, from my party's perspective and from our ambitions' perspective, that we got as senior a position as we could. I managed to become a vice-chair and was very blessed to be able to become a rapporteur. We worked hard for 18 months to get a body of work that had hundreds of recommendations as to what the European Union can do to try to assist member states. I know we can have the argument about whether we have competency or not. What we believe is that some of the things that are rooted in European legislation and regulations are slowing us down. Some of the financing inhibitors stop people being able to borrow money at a rate where it means that they could sell affordable houses. There is a lot we can do. I know there is lots that only national governments can do, but we can do a lot and I hope we see it shortly with the affordable housing legislation, which was launched last week. The part that I am really interested in is probably going to come after Christmas, where we will see simplification of all of those regulations and I am looking forward to that.  Then we have artificial intelligence, or as President Trump called it this morning, super intelligence. The only thing I recognise is that while we talk about a lot of the concerns that people have - they are right that we need rules and regulations and Europe has all of those rules and regulations but just does not have the companies to regulate - we also need to be talking about the phenomenal changes from a positive perspective that we can actually appreciate in life. We can have the rules, but we also need to realise the transformative way this is going to change all our lives for the positive as well as addressing the concerns we have.  Mr. Andrews spoke about the war in Ukraine and the support that continues to come from Europe for those colleagues. I will be very honest with the House. Before I ever went to the European Parliament or visited any of those eastern countries, I had a sense that they were making a big deal out of it. That is until you go to Finland, Estonia or even Poland and realise what normal people are living in fear of. They have bunkers under the ground and procedures to know how to get to them in the event of something happening. I came back and I realised this is so much more real and co-operation is desperately important. Ireland has been to the fore. The European Union has been really instrumental in helping Ukraine. That then brings us to the defence conversation. There is a different mood in Ireland now than there ever would have been when I was in this Chamber or the D\u00e1il about having that conversation and the realism that we need to have protections, even if it is only for our infrastructure. We are never going to change our stance on being militarily unaligned. However, to be able to protect the infrastructure we so heavily rely on is something we need to be cognisant of and do far faster.  I will stop there. I am looking forward to the interaction and the questions we will have later on. It is a real privilege to be a former Member of this House and to be back today. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Aodh\u00e1n \u00d3 Riord\u00e1in","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Aodh\u00e1n \u00d3 Riord\u00e1in  As my colleagues said, it is a genuine honour to be here to share our work in the European Parliament with Senators and to be back in the Oireachtas. I ran for the European Parliament inspired in some way because of the racist riot that took place in November 2023 on the streets of Dublin. I was extremely worried about the rise of the far right and convinced that the prioritisation of Dublin in the political sphere was not being taken seriously enough.  On my first day in the European Parliament, I told my colleagues that I had three priorities; housing, housing and housing. As Ms Doherty quite rightly said, we have a housing committee and a housing Commissioner. We now have a housing report and our first European housing legislation. I hope that in the budget negotiations that will be finalised by the end of the year, we may have some financial assistance for housing. Having 4,000 children living in my city in emergency accommodation is an outrage and there is also the fact that tourists are living in homes while children are living in hotels. That is why there was such an emphasis in the Affordable Housing Act 2021 on regulation of short-term lets.  Some of the campaigning I have done in Dublin throughout my political life I have brought to the European Parliament. I have established a new informal committee on drugs and drug use, which has tried to bring some of the mainstream European talk when it comes to decriminalisation of the drug user, and the facilitation of injecting facilities and consumption rooms, to the mainstream of Irish politics. We also had a petition which we brought to the European Parliament from parents who are waiting for assessments of needs for their children.  I am on the UK-EU delegation, which means that we have an interaction with Westminster politicians every six months or so. I am a member of the S&D, which is the second biggest group in the European Parliament. We obviously have a political relationship with the British Labour Party and on that basis, I am encouraging my British Labour Party colleagues to take Northern Ireland much more seriously. Also, all of us are working collaboratively as Irish MEPs to ensure the recognition of Irish passport holders born in the North of Ireland. They are EU citizens and they deserve to have EU representation as well.  Simplification and competitiveness have been mentioned. As somebody of the left, we understand the importance of these two words but at the same time we are nervous about rowing back on the very things that have protected consumers and workers' rights over generations. When I was a young man, I became very aware that my mother had to leave the Civil Service when she got married. It is only because of our membership of the European Union that advances in workers' rights and gender equality have improved things. However, there is a body of far-right MEPs who are determined to row back all of that. It is important for all of us in the centre ground to co-operate with each other and not to allow anti-European and extreme voices to take over.  Ukraine and Gaza have been mentioned and they are extremely important. Sometimes we forget, as Ms Doherty quite rightly said, and think that Ukraine is something that happens on television, but it is not something that happens on television for those who live in a member state that borders Russia. It is a very real threat to their way of life. They have a memory within their families of Russian aggression. That is why, for me, solidarity with Ukraine and understanding the necessity of member states to react to what is happening is important. The issue of Gaza is also forefront in our minds. It destabilises the European Union to have an association agreement with a country like Israel, which flouts international law so readily. The EU-Israel Association Agreement is worth \u20ac45 billion. It would have much more effect on changing Israel's course of action when it comes to Gaza, the West Bank or other areas where it shows aggression, if we were to genuinely threaten the suspension or the ending of that trade agreement.  Coming back to housing, there is commitment from Government. We had the Minister for housing in Strasbourg last week. There is a commitment for a meeting of the housing ministers in November, with a focus on homelessness, which I look forward to engaging with. There is a commitment for a housing summit, which Ursula von der Leyen made in her state of the union speech last year. We are still waiting for details on that. If there were to be a housing summit in Dublin - I would hope before the end of the year with the main players of the European Union - it would bring more energy to the discussion of housing our people. If there is any momentum behind anti-European sentiment and behind those who wish to break up what has been the greatest peace process in history, it is because Europe does not seem to be reacting strongly enough to the needs of people on the ground. If people cannot house themselves, their families or their children then politics feels very distant from them. I hope we get to a position to be able to deliver on that housing summit before the end of the year.  In her state of the Union address last week Ursula von der Leyen said a lot of things.  She spoke about AI, which is something we are concerned about on the employment committee in the context of labour displacement. She also spoke about housing being a right. Many people in the European Parliament believe property is a right but we are trying to move to a situation where housing is recognised as a right so we can, as I said, house our children and especially those who currently live in emergency accommodation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank the MEPs for their opening statements on a broad range of topics. Housing was mentioned as one of those issues that has been weaponised and utilised but it is of fundamental importance to our young people, as we have seen in some reports this week. We will now hear from our group spokespersons from each of our groups, starting with an Seanad\u00f3ir Fitzpatrick. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mary Fitzpatrick  Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh. Cuirim f\u00e1ilte roimh na MEPs. They are very welcome. It is really good to see the three of them. It is disappointing the fourth representative for Dublin is not here. It is incredibly important that we have strong relations between our national Parliament and our European Parliament. I thank the MEPs for the service they give to Dublin. It is important we have really strong, constructive representation in the European Parliament.  Fianna F\u00e1il has obviously always been a pro-EU party. We have no hesitation in saying that and we are very proud to be the party that led our country into the Union. I am somebody who grew up in the European Union. I am somebody who learnt French and German in Cabra and went on to study Italian as well. I remember going to work in Germany when I had to get a Gastarbeiter permit. I have lived the European experience and I know for my children and their generation and for future generations the European Union is incredibly important. It is incredibly important because of all of the things the MEPs have mentioned, all the great work they are undertaking, participating in and contributing to - not just for Dublin but for the 27 member states - and the strength that the EU represents on the world stage. We are a single community of 450 million people. I do not think there is a bigger single market. That brings power to address the issues the MEPs have mentioned like security, defence, stability, democracy and freedom. These are words and values that we grew up with and kind of take for granted, but we should not. We should value them and protect them and defend them to our last breaths because we are privileged people. We are incredibly privileged to live in Dublin, to live in Ireland and to be part of the EU. I really thank the MEPs for the work they are doing.  There are a couple of things they mentioned that I would like to come back to. One of them is housing. It is obviously a huge issue. There is not a European city where you do not witness people who are homeless, who are without a home. If you do not have a place to call your own, one that is safe, secure and meets your needs, it is incredibly challenging to go to school, college or work and to function in society. I therefore commend the MEPs on the work they are doing at an EU level to promote and assert the right to housing. It is essential for us humans to have secure shelter. We have had a big challenge. I am very proud that house construction in Ireland is twice the EU average. I am very proud that we have a target to deliver 300,000 homes, that we are making great progress towards achieving that many homes and that we have record levels of not just affordable and private housebuilding but social housebuilding as well. The only solution to homelessness is homes and that is what social housing really addresses. There is more opportunity. It is a national competence but Ms Doherty mentioned it, I think, when she talked about the investment in and financing of housing. We see the EU as a great source of strategic financing. In the constituency I live in, a really obvious example is the urban regeneration and education project and the funding that came in for TUD in Grangegorman. The old asylum there has been transformed into a world-class campus. It is a fantastic campus. It is not just about education or culture but about people. It is a really open place. Consider the transformation that has been achieved there. It was a walled Victorian asylum where people were locked up for lifetimes and it is now a part of the city where lives begin. It is really fantastic and Europe played a part in that via the investment bank. We have another huge regeneration opportunity in the capital in the Carlton site. The State has bought that site for MetroLink and we could deliver affordable housing there. The State owns it.  I thank the MEPs for being here and their engagement with us. I encourage them to continue doing that because it is really important. When the public see politicians working in a practical way, they value our democracy and they value us. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Evanne N\u00ed Chuilinn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Evanne-N\u00ed-Chuilinn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Evanne-N\u00ed-Chuilinn.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Evanne N\u00ed Chuilinn  I welcome the MEPs. It is great to have them here. I was going to use all my time to speak about the European Week of Sport, which begins today, I think. I had the opportunity last year to go to Brussels and speak at the European Parliament during European Week of Sport along with Nina Carberry, MEP. There was a great discussion about women in sport, inequality and all that. I will get to that because acknowledging European Week of Sport and what we can do both here and at EU level to encourage more people to get involved in physical activity is a good thing.  However, I have just come from the most infuriating media committee meeting with the social media companies. Ms Doherty mentioned online safety for children and Mr. \u00d3 R\u00edord\u00e1in mentioned AI and the difficulties we are facing with AI in the employment space. I would like to reiterate what I said downstairs in the committee room, which is that artificial intelligence is very intelligent. I cannot understand how media companies cannot ban videos from being uploaded in the first place using AI. I could not get a response from TikTok an hour ago on why the company could not use this amazing tool called AI to ensure videos of dangerous driving, gender-based violence, criminal activity or any videos of that nature are not ending up on our platforms. I cannot understand how that is.  I am going to speak specifically about gender-based violence and about femicide and use some of the statistics we have for Ireland. Femicide in Ireland has increased by almost 50% this year. There have been ten instances of femicide, up from seven in 2025. Some 287 women have died violently in Ireland since 1996. In 63% of these instances they were killed in their homes and 87% of women were killed by a man known to them. We know gender-based violence does not just happen on a given day. These women are on watchlists. It is a result of behaviour that has often been festering for years. What has happened in the era of these tech companies and online social media platforms is there a place online now to cultivate, spread and encourage male supremacy and antifeminist behaviours and it is very worrying. There was a research project done recently by DCU, funded by the Department of justice. It was called \"Recommending Toxicity\". The authors created ten online accounts that were, mar dhea, owned by 16- and 18-year-old boys and men. No matter whether those accounts actively looked for misogynistic videos, they were fed them over and over again. Regardless of what was being sought or what was looked at in the first instance, these videos were being fed to these accounts, which were purporting to belong to teenage boys and 18-year-old men. The accounts were being run by researchers but it is very worrying.  Some 90% to 95% of deepfakes on the internet are nonconsensual pornographic images depicting women. I am aware addressing all this is not easy but there was mention of making tech companies responsible and there is a way to go there.  Addressing all of this is a priority for Fine Gael. I thank the Fine Gael Women's Network for its advocacy and submission of proposals to public representatives on how we can combat domestic, sexual and gender-based violence, particularly in an era of that online content because it is all just spreading.  There is a range of EU legislative instruments that aim to tackle these issues, including the Digital Services Act. The EU KIDS Act was mentioned as well. However, I would really like the MEPs to update the House on the work that is ongoing in the European Parliament to strengthen these legislative instruments further because from what I saw downstairs, Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n is hamstrung. We are all hamstrung by certain regulatory and legal frameworks. At the moment, the likes of TikTok are getting away with uploading these videos. Sometimes they are taking them down in 24 hours, sometimes they are not, but they should not be going up in the first place. We in this House, and in the D\u00e1il and European Parliament, have a responsibility to be more proactive about making sure those videos cannot go up in the first place.  I will come back to European Week of Sport because it begins today. It is an opportunity to promote the benefits of sport and physical activity. It is an opportunity for the EU to connect with citizens across the Union to promote a vision of sport that is inclusive of all abilities and ages. The current framework that guides EU sports policy runs to December 2027. There will be a successor. It is interesting that it is parallel with the national sports policy in Ireland. I will be doing a bit of work over the next year or so with stakeholder engagement with the sector. I would be really happy if the MEPs would be happy to take a report from the research I do here in Ireland for the next Irish sports policy because it looks like the next European sports policy will run along the same timeframe. If they are open to receiving some of that information, I would be delighted to send it on. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Tom Clonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","memberCode":"Tom-Clonan.S.2022-04-04","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Tom Clonan  F\u00e1ilte abhaile ar ais chuig an Teach seo. I thank our guests for their exceptional public service. That commute over and back to Strasbourg and Brussels is very hard on families and individuals and it should not be taken lightly. It is a huge sacrifice, especially at particular times in people's lives. We are exceptionally well-represented in Europe. I recall that MEP Andrews recently appeared before the Joint Committee on Defence and National Security to talk about defence, security and priorities we ought to have. Unfortunately, I was called away to the Order of Business and when I came back, I apologised to Barry for missing his contribution. He said to me, \"Do not worry about that, Tom. I was kind of hoping you wouldn't come back\". When it comes to verbal acuity and discourse, we are exceptionally well-represented, not just in Dublin but nationwide. I know we all have our differences, but my experience of this House has been that people are very collegial.  I will ask a few questions. In our Presidency of the EU, the Government, T\u00e1naiste and Taoiseach identified security as being a key theme. We have heard people like Kaja Kallas and Ursula von der Leyen say that we are on the precipice of a major ground invasion by Russia into continental Europe and that it is at the point of attacking a NATO member. I see frequently Irish media reports citing the head of German intelligence saying that an attack on Europe is imminent. Belgorod is the most important strategic military pathway into Ukraine for the Russians. It is in the Belgorod oblast and is 80 km from Kharkiv. That is less than 50 miles but in five years of war, the Russians have failed to get down the road to Kharkiv. Yet, we are told that it is on the point of, if you like, invading one of the Baltic states and perhaps expanding that and escalating to arrive in Helsinki and maybe Copenhagen or Stockholm. The Russians have been operating with brigade combat teams. Have the MEPs seen any evidence that the Russians have the hundreds of divisions it would take - the millions of troops in divisions, armies and army groups that would be required - to conduct a conventional land invasion of Europe? Have they seen any evidence to that extent? I do not mean \u201cD\u00fairt bean liom go nd\u00fairt bean l\u00e9i\u201d. I mean that I take everything that Commission officials say with a pinch of salt because I do not see any evidence for that. What I do see, and I would be curious to see if the MEPs share this view, is that we are probably going to see a return to Cold War spending on defence and security, which is a pity. It is something that is outside of our control, prompted by Vladimir Putin and his fragile vanity.  The second thing I want to ask relates to drones during the European Union Presidency. In February 2019, a consumer drone caused the closure of Dublin Airport. In 2023, there were six closures of Dublin Airport when small consumer drones about the size of my hand were sighted in the environment of the airport. On 1 December 2025, the L\u00c9 William Butler Yeats confirmed it had sighted several military and industrial grade drones operating in the flight path of aircraft going in and out of Dublin Airport. However, no action was taken. Despite the fact that it observed those for hours, no notification to airmen or women was issued. The airport was not closed, flights were not diverted and, crucially, pilots and air crew were not informed of the threat. On 8 September, at 6,000 ft, a black military drone was observed and reported by an Aer Lingus pilot coming into Dublin Airport and, again, no action was taken, no notification was given to other aircraft, no airspace was closed and the airport continued uninterrupted. Last week, a red military grade drone was spotted at 3,000 ft, 20 m off the left wing or port wing of an Aer Lingus aircraft. Again, no airspace was closed and there was no notification to air personnel. Are the MEPs satisfied when they fly in and out of Ireland that they are safe? Across Europe, when these drones are spotted, they routinely close airspace.  In the 1990s, we had 600 commercial field growers in Ireland. We now have 60. We import 83% of our fruit and vegetables. I think of climate change. I drove from Bilbao through the centre of Spain and down to the south of Portugal. We drove through hundreds of kilometres of burnt, scorched earth. Food security and water security are priorities for us. Is there anything that we can do in Europe to identify and prioritise the real threats to Ireland\u2019s future security? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  I apologise for missing the opening statements. I had another presentation. Like Senator Clonan, I know that despite our political differences, we have great MEPs representing us and fighting for our city. I want to raise a couple of issues.  The GPO and Moore Street are currently in limbo waiting on Government plans for their future. It is very disappointing that what should be one of the city's most important historic and cultural quarters has been neglected by the State for so long. However, I am hopeful that progress can be made in the future after the planned public consultation. It would be huge missed opportunity if this process does not result in ambitious planning and serious investment in this part of the city. Moore Street and its surroundings can become a catalyst for the regeneration of Dublin's north inner city, while at the same time preserving our republican heritage and creating a vibrant cultural quarter with amenities and housing where it is most desperately needed. As Dublin MEPs, is this an issue they have engaged with? What kind of potential do they see this having for the north inner city?  Separately, I will raise the hardline support for Israel\u2019s genocidal regime by the European People's Party, EPP, of which Fine Gael is a member. Commission President Ursula von der Leyen has, of course, been a staunch ally of Israel and Netanyahu and has been central in supporting Israel\u2019s wars across the Middle East and the genocide in Palestine. Within the Parliament, the EPP routinely blocks any sort of debate, motion or resolution on Palestine, trying to quash any scrutiny of Israel or attempts to recognise the human rights of Palestinians. The chair of the Parliament's delegation to Israel is a member of the EPP and regularly speaks on behalf of that party on this particular issue. Recently, she said in the Parliament:  For us Europeans and for our partner Israel [how do you see Israel as a partner?] international law matters because we have committed ourselves to it, but it's also clear that international law alone does not always provide solutions when dealing with terrorist organisations or violent and oppressive regimes.  This is an absolutely appalling statement, clearly designed to justify Israel's crimes against civilian populations. Likewise, last month she gave political cover to Ben-Gvir's barbaric demand for Israel to kill 40 Palestinians a night and tried to make excuses for why he routinely makes these sickening extremist statements. I would greatly appreciate if Regina Doherty MEP could clarify her position on the European People's Party approach to Palestine and the Israeli state and tell us whether there is any redline on this issue that would prompt Fine Gael to reconsider its membership of the EPP. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Laura Harmon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Laura Harmon  I echo what other Senators have said. Regardless of some political differences, we are well represented in Europe. I am a Labour Party Senator and we are very proud of our MEP and my colleague Aodh\u00e1n \u00d3 R\u00edord\u00e1in and the work he is doing to progress a progressive agenda within Europe.  Aodh\u00e1n mentioned housing and he is on the housing committee in the European Parliament. What does he think the Government needs to do to access more resources for housing? How can it work better with Europe on this? I am seeing figures in Cork, where I am based, showing we have nearly 300 children homeless between counties Cork and Kerry but this is obviously a national issue.  Another issue mentioned was the safe injection facility in Dublin, which has been a great success. This is something other cities, particularly Cork city, are looking to implement as well. Do the MEPs have any advice on how that should be progressed? What barriers might exist?  I watched with great interest the petition that was presented to the European Parliament in relation to assessment of need. I commend the parents who brought that position, particularly Councillor Ali Field. What now needs to happen with that? How can Europe put pressure on our Government to remedy that issue and those waiting lists that are in place?  Another issue that most of us have mentioned is artificial intelligence and workers' rights. How can we safeguard workers' rights here in terms of AI? I am on the Oireachtas artificial intelligence committee and this is a big topic of discussion over the coming months in relation to safeguarding workers' rights with advances in technology. What are MEPs in Europe doing to safeguard their rights?  Europe, as a whole, did not respond strongly enough to the genocide in Palestine and in Gaza. It was also slow to respond. It would have been better to see a more collective approach from the outset. I am very proud of our MEPs who have spoken out on that issue. It is very important we continue to do so and to show our support to other countries experiencing war. I know Ukraine has been mentioned specifically. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I believe the Senator wishes to share time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Noonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Malcolm Noonan  I welcome our MEPs, particularly my new Green Party colleague, Aodh\u00e1n \u00d3 R\u00edord\u00e1in. We certainly look forward to the continued merging of the parties over time. I want to take up a point raised by Senator Clonan. It is about the wildfires and heatwaves we have had across Europe. A temperature of 400 C in many of our European cities seems to be the new norm and there is a new acceptance that these are the temperatures we are facing. Over 700,000 ha of land has been burned, literally incinerated, across Europe. There is a food security issue.  There are also challenges around what is happening at a European level on the simplification agenda and what is happening with the potential loss of funding streams like the LIFE multi-annual financial framework, which our MEPs have a responsibility for. I hope they will fight not just Ireland's corner but Europe's corner. If we want to spend money on security, we should spend it on climate and nature. That is where our security lies. Our security lies in our food security and in having clean water, resilient nature and a stable climate. That is something I urge our MEPs to take on board.  My second point relates to Gaza. I share the disappointment expressed yesterday at the UN by Minister, Deputy McEntee, regarding a lack of concerted European action on it. I have deep sympathy for the Irish team, and I know Aodh\u00e1n is a great follower of the Irish football team, like I am, but I have sympathy for the players and manager. I absolutely do not think they should have been put in the position that they are in. The onus should have been on the FAI. However, the onus should have been at a European level to sanction Israel for its atrocities. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Before I call on Senator Alice-Mary Higgins, I want to welcome guest of Senator Shane Curley, Ms Divyanshi Jain, along with guest of Senator Joe Conway, Mr. Kevin Rafferty, from Waterford, who is a former colleague but, I presume, a current friend. I thank you all for being here today. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alice-Mary Higgins  It is good that we have these sessions where we bring the debates happening in Europe here and make the connections clear. There are some really important discussions happening during Ireland's Presidency, so I am going to focus primarily on the MFF, the shift away from overseas development aid in a really worrying way and the move in terms of LIFE funding and other programmes, which are so crucial to small farmers and people doing the actual environmental work across the country and across Europe, and the moving of so much, like that fund for example, into a competitiveness fund.  This competitiveness framing, which we have heard again and again, means when we look at the MFF, it seems concerning that a lot of what remains, which is not getting moved directly into arms and into re-supporting the German automobile industry, which we know is now directly partnering with Israeli military development, for example, is going into competitiveness funds. I am very concerned.  I would like to hear thoughts on how we avoid the capture we have seen in the United States largely, but not solely, by very large billionaire tech advocates who have extreme interest expressed in political control. We see that now attached to things like the Rhine Group in terms of Collison and Draghi being part of that, and it parallels so much of what we have seen in the advocacy around the wealth tax, for example, in the United States, again, where there has been funding, and some of the really concerning messages.  I wonder about the competitiveness narrative because it seems to be mainly benefiting large US multinationals. It is ExxonMobil in the room when we are talking about the omnibus Bills. It seems that we are looking at a level of corporate capture by European institutions that I have not seen, as somebody very passionate about Europe, for years. The public see it too. I worry that this level of corporate capture is diminishing public confidence in Europe. I would like to know what can be done on that. As part of that, a key test for it is where we balance and where we figure out where our priorities are. Where do European values, which we hear referenced very often, actually sit? Where do human rights and international rights sit within European values and where do values sit within the actual decision-making?  There are four specifics I would like to be addressed. One is the trade deals being negotiated at the moment. We have all wrung our hands about the EU-Israel association agreement and how we cannot get the qualified majority or unanimity to do the right thing, but Ireland also sat back on the EU-Morocco deal in relation to Western Sahara, and during this Presidency, we will see negotiations on the EU-Indonesia deal even as there are reports right now from West Papua about the large-scale assassination of civil society members.  I am asking how, within the Parliament, the MEPs plan to push in advance at the point when a majority is needed to make a new deal. This is the point when the balance of power sits with any voice willing to stand up, before the deal is made, for human rights, as well as for the enforcement and meaningful enforcement of human rights in other deals.  Another area I am concerned about, which sadly is something the EPP collectively voted against, is the reference to the United Arab Emirates, UAE, in the amendments on Sudan. I refer to amendments to specifically name its involvement in conflict. We know the EU is also negotiating a trade deal with the UAE.  When does the values bit kick in? Do we talk about it aspirationally afterwards or is it brought through in the discussions about money? Is it about values or is it about a price tag? That is at the core of public confidence in the European Union. It is also at the core of making it something we can be proud of. I look back to my involvement in the Future of Europe process and what the citizens wanted. They want a Europe that is good, not just a Europe that is strong and makes money. I would like to know how that is being translated into these key discussions and the decisions being made on our watch. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  As agreed by the Committee on Parliamentary Privileges and Oversight, the opening statements by Senators are to be five minutes, and the MEPs will then respond. Each of the MEPs now has five minutes to respond. Our Senators will then come back in for the remainder of the debate, with the MEPs concluding, along with the Leas-Chathaoirleach. We will go again in alphabetical order. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Barry Andrews","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Barry Andrews  I thank all the Senators for their questions. I will get straight into the debate.  Senator Fitzpatrick raised housing. I did not make reference to it in my opening comments because my colleagues are on the housing committee. Before the last election, I published a paper with Housing Europe that contained a list of recommendations about what should happen in housing. I want to make reference to three of them. Two have already been implemented. First, we recommended that there be a housing committee in the European Parliament. That has happened already. Second, we recommended that approved housing bodies be taken off balance sheet for accounting purposes in order that the Government could invest more in affordable housing. That has not been done at this point but it would be extremely welcome. The third point I referred to in the housing report was in relation to leveraging savings within the European system to create capital investment in affordability. That is very much an adopted policy.  On homelessness, I would now like to see some of the recommendations in Commission reports transferred into Council conclusions in November. Reference was made to the housing ministers coming to Dublin in November. The key thing we should be looking out for and pressing for, particularly in other member states, is making sure that the Council conclusions on homelessness are adopted in November. The momentum in Ireland is very strong.  Senator Evanne N\u00ed Chuilinn talked about sport. There is discussion of a sports Act because a lot of EU law on free movement and competition affects the way sports organisations conduct their business but that law is not really tailored to produce positive outcomes in sport. There is a big discussion now about whether there should be specific legislation on this. That is very much worth following.  On the media companies, I totally agree with the Senator. It is very frustrating. The Meta ruling in the United States a couple of weeks ago needs to be transferred into European law. President von der Leyen, in her speech on the state of the Union last week, said there has to be a shift of the burden of proof onto the media companies. That is crucial from a legal point of view because it requires them to demonstrate that their algorithms are safe and puts a positive obligation on them. I want to pay tribute to my former colleague, Frances Fitzgerald, who brought the gender-based violence legislation through the EU. We have seen with the proposed EU keeping internet digital spaces accountable and trustworthy, KIDS, Act that there is some progress being made.  I am conscious of time. Senator Clonan raised the nature of the threat that exists and whether there is a threat from Russia. If you are living in Ireland, it probably feels like there is not; however, if you are living in the Baltic states, where there are considerable Russian populations, it is a different equation, and there is a different threat assessment. I do not think the Baltic states are spending an awful lot of money on defence because they really enjoy doing it. They do not enjoy raising taxes to pay more for defence, they do not enjoy borrowing money to pay for defence, and they do not enjoy cutting social security provisions in order to pay for defence. They do it because they believe there is a real threat. We should respect that and really understand it.  Do I feel safe coming out of Dublin Airport? Yes, I do. I have had conversations with the Dublin Airport Authority. It has a red zone and a black zone and sensors to make sure any drone activity within the airport is dealt with appropriately. There are various agencies involved. Some of the sightings are not correct sightings. What the Senator said was seen at 6,000 ft, which some pilots thought was a military drone, was a light aircraft. Sometimes, you do not want to start shooting out of the sky what you believe to be drones. There is a lot of process that has to be followed to satisfy yourself that you are not creating a further problem.  A number of speakers, including Senator Andrews, raised the question of Gaza. I have been working very hard on this issue as the vice chair of the Palestine delegation. I agree with all of the points that were made.  I am going to run out of time. I will refer to Senator Alice-Mary Higgins's points and Senator Noonan's in my concluding remarks. I thank the Senators. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Regina Doherty","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Regina Doherty  It is a bit like speed dating, so I do not know whether I am going to get to everybody's questions. I very much acknowledge the thanks and the welcome because it really does feel nice.  On housing, I hope Senator Fitzpatrick can see what we are trying to achieve from a European perspective. I believe we will get there. The frustration some of us feel concerns the speed at which we are getting there. We could be doing things much faster. An example initiative is one the UK Government is currently working on. It is to use artificial intelligence in its planning system. It considers its planning permission system too slow, although it is about five times faster than ours. It is using AI to develop a system where, from beginning to end, with human intervention only at the very end before planning permission is granted, everything will be digitised. One could say this is something we could do here in Ireland if we wanted to but if we had legislation and recommendations from the EU, it would force us to deal with the issue. That is really positive.  Homelessness is something we are still seriously grappling with, not just at home. When one goes to other European countries, one sees how stark it is. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mary Fitzpatrick  Absolutely. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Regina Doherty","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Regina Doherty  The housing first approach is something we absolutely have to adopt. The Senator is right to say that, across the EU, Ireland is building far more houses than any other country. That is sometimes why it is difficult to hear foreign colleagues coming here and criticising us when their own record is not great, to be honest. I just wanted to acknowledge that.  I would love to work on European sports policy, so maybe we should have more regular contact by email. I will take that on board.  To answer Senator Clonan\u2019s question, I do feel safe. I am particularly conscious of it flying back and forth. I spend more time on planes these days than I ever did in my whole life before.  With regard to food security, something we could start doing here is supporting our tillage farmers and foodstuff manufacturers to ensure we have an Irish industry that can serve the Irish market. Currently, we do not have that. Our tillage farmers, for whom I am seeking a meeting with the Minister, will say they are being left behind. As the Senator suggested, we do not have horticulturists in the numbers we used to years ago. In a few years, we will have no tillage growers either. That is really worrying.  I genuinely do not know whether there are thousands of soldiers waiting in the Russian wings to attack a European country. However, I do know the fear of very serious defence people in Poland and Finland. When they speak to us, I do not feel they are making it up. Their intelligence is based on the best information they have. Also, each of those countries has had a myriad and growing number of hybrid attacks that may be precursors to what they believe might be the worst-case eventuality. What I do know is that failure to prepare will definitely result in us not being ready. I hope to God an attack never happens, but if it does, solidarity and support for one another's countries has to be felt.  I do not know where to begin and end with Senator Andrews' response, other than to say that my position on Palestine, from an Irish perspective, as an Irish MEP, is very clear. The work that I have done in the Parliament for the past two years has not always been welcomed by some of my EPP colleagues and that is fairly obvious. Like every party, including the Senator's - and it is an awful pity that his own party colleague is not here today to defend her voting record when she votes against Ireland on myriad cases - my grouping in the EU is a broad church. We do not all agree with each other but we do not all agree with each other around this table, collectively, either, and the point of what we try to do is to collectively work to get a consensus. Ireland has led that charge over the past two years. That was clear from the Commission President's speech last Wednesday. She said that it would have been far more preferable if the 12 or 13 European countries now supporting the Irish and Spanish position had done so a number of years ago. Had they done so, we might have actually got a much better outcome. All of us will continue to fight, as I am sure will all Senators, for the Palestinian people to make sure that they do get justice. I will keep doing my part.  In response to Senator Harmon on AI and workers' rights, we have a quality jobs Act coming up in the employment affairs committee in the next number of months. A lot of it will be centred around people's rights as we currently know them. There is a huge opportunity for us to look forward into the future, even in terms of the ones that we already know will be displaced. First, we must make sure that there are jobs that can never be done by AI that have to have human interaction. We need to ensure that we have a programme of works to make sure that we can retrain people. Automated driving, for argument's sake, is something that we know about, as well as administrative works. What are we doing now to make sure that we retrain those people to the new jobs that have not even been created or developed yet? There has to be some sort of protection in law and that is a challenge for myself and Mr. \u00d3 Riord\u00e1in in the next couple of months.  Senator Noonan spoke about wildfires across Europe. Again, the President spoke this week about the challenge and the frustrations between industry and climate. Those challenges were laid bare and were clear to see during the summer which is why she is establishing the EU climate insurance pact to make sure that we work to more cooperatively together. I look forward to helping to progress that.  In response to Senator Higgins, I appreciate her frustrations. She is a very passionate woman and she has been passionate on many topics over the years. The other side to the argument that she makes is the industrial accelerator Act. That is in stark contrast to the picture that she laid out, that we are actually putting money into the coffers of American companies. What we are desperately trying to do is to rebalance that competitive agenda, right back to European companies and manufacturers, to make sure that those people who have missed a boat to either China or America in the past five or ten years get supported by EU money to make sure that they are actually here to supply us, not just with food security but with tech security and job security as well. They cannot do that without a level playing field and the accelerator Act is going to do a lot on that in the next couple of months. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Aodh\u00e1n \u00d3 Riord\u00e1in","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Aodh\u00e1n \u00d3 Riord\u00e1in  I will do my absolute best to respond to Senators. I thank them for their warm comments, which are genuinely appreciated. Housing was mentioned by a number who asked what we have done. We have changed the state aid rules so that individual local authorities now have a greater capacity to borrow. When I met the CEO of Dublin City Council last year, he said that the collective borrowing capacity of the 31 local authorities in Ireland is \u20ac118 million. That is it. That is all they could borrow in the morning if they collectively went to try to access funding. When we changed state aid rules, that facilitated local authorities to get more involved in borrowing for housing if they want to. In addition, in terms of short-term lets, they do not need to be worried about EU competition law any more when trying to reduce or curtail the amount of properties that are let out through Airbnb or similar.  We had a very passionate contribution from Senator  N\u00ed Chuilinn on TikTok, which is very much appreciated. What is bizarre is that when one is in the European Parliament, one cannot access one's TikTok account because it is actually perceived to be so dangerous but yet we allow children to access it anywhere in the European Union. We need to start considering banning or curtailing platforms before we start considering banning or curtailing children. The emphasis, as Mr. Andrews MEP rightly said, needs to be put back on the companies, corporations and platforms and not on the families or the children, necessarily.  Gaza has been mentioned today and I have spoken about the Israel agreement previously. Similar to militarisation or security, although one does not have to agree - and I do not necessarily agree - one has to appreciate or have a sense or a feeling for where the average German or Austrian MEP is coming from. They have a Holocaust hangover. I do not want to put it in comical terms but that is exactly what they are trying to atone for in their politics. They know what their grandfathers and their great grandfathers did and in supporting Israel, they feel they are atoning for that. It is misguided, wrong and it is hurting Palestinian children. It is killing Palestinian children but that is, unfortunately, what we are trying to change,  On security, the security discussion in Ireland is similar to the abortion discussion. Irish society liked exceptionalism when it came to abortion, as long as we were able to allow 4,000 women a year to go to the UK. We also like our exceptionalism when it comes to security, as long as somebody else will guide and protect us. That is not the kind of attitude that a serious, European, modern nation should take. We should be an awful lot more understanding of those who do have concerns when it comes to bordering Russia and what they may be engaging with.  In terms of sport and gender equality in sport, I appreciate the Senator's leadership on this. I have an eight-year-old girl and she has to choose between soccer and GAA on a Sunday. The eight-year-old boy who lives beside me does not have to make that choice. She is eight. That is something that we must have a proper discussion about. How does gender equality genuinely work its way into every facet of Irish society when those who are trying to access support have those barriers in front of them?  There are about 200 far-right MEPs in the European Parliament and they are being pandered to on climate change, immigration, and violence against women. They will tell us that immigration is the issue when it comes to violence against women. They will tell us that housing is an immigration problem and they are climate change deniers. They used to be on the outskirts. There was a cordon sanitaire, whereby others did not vote for any amendment they put down or engage with them on any level but unfortunately, that centre ground of pro-European politics is under strain more than ever before and Ms Ursula von der Leyen has a lot to answer for when it comes to that. We have seen in European elections in different member states how the far right is gaining traction. That is because other centre right parties have taken on their clothing and normalised their politics.  On drugs and injecting facilities, which was raised by Senator Harmon, the facility in Dublin has been a huge success but the legislation needs to be amended to facilitate not just injection but consumption. If one goes to the injecting facility in Brussels, 90% of the people using it are actually smoking crack cocaine rather than injecting heroin. We need to be much more agile and reflective of the needs of the individual drug user. That mainstream, European knowledge and experience of drug policy or things like drug policy would really benefit us in Ireland. We need decriminalisation of drug users but also a consumption facility in other urban centres.  On the issue of farming and the LIFE project that needs funding to support 44,000 part-time farmers, some farming organisations are not properly representing those who engage in agriculture in Ireland. Sometimes their influence is too much and the nitrates derogation and the extension of it was a wrong turn for Ireland. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  We will go to our final group of Senators before returning to our MEPs. Anois, an Seanad\u00f3ir Clifford-Lee. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Lorraine Clifford-Lee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Lorraine-Clifford-Lee.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Lorraine-Clifford-Lee.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Lorraine Clifford-Lee  Our guests are all very welcome. I am delighted to see the three MEPs before us but it is a pity that their fourth colleague is not here today. The work that they do is very important. Dublin is of strategic importance to this country. We are very mindful of the work our MEPs are doing in Europe and we commend them for working together for the betterment of Dublin and Ireland.  There has been a lot of talk about security, border security and fuel security. I am very concerned about food security and supporting our fruit and vegetable growers. Irish horticulture is competing with imported produce, much of which comes from outside of the EU, while Irish growers face rising costs in relation to energy, labour, land, compliance and regulation. We need to support our growers for our own food security. Given that the CAP negotiations are ongoing and entering a critical phase, it is timely that we are here to discuss this particular issue. If Europe wants Irish growers to meet higher environmental, labour and production standards, will the next CAP provide sufficient investment to support them and allow them to remain competitive with imported produce? Can our MEPs use their position with the European Parliament to strongly advocate for growers in Fingal who produce 47% of Ireland's field vegetables, 37% of protected fruit, vegetable and nursery plants, and 14.5% of the national potato output? Our MEPs will agree that the growers of north County Dublin contribute significantly to the food security of this country. If Europe is serious about food security, how do we reconcile that with the economic pressures currently faced by Irish growers?  What happens to European food security when farms in productive areas, like north County Dublin, become economically unviable? Has serious thought been given by the EU to productive agricultural land and whether this should be treated as a strategic food security asset? Should there be a stronger European food security test before productive agricultural land is lost to competing land uses? This is particularly relevant in Fingal due to the housing pressures of Dublin and the pressures farmers come under to give up productive farming land in favour of housing. We need housing but we also need our food security.  Farming is not often seen as an issue for Dublin-based politicians but as I have outlined, we have a significant agricultural industry in Dublin and I appeal to the MEPs not to forget about the farmers of Dublin. I note and congratulate the 2026 young farmer of the year, Shane Halpin, from Lusk, County Dublin. He is the first Dublin farmer to win this award. It is a testament to his work but also to the vibrant and innovative horticulture sector in north county Dublin.  I would also like to touch on Irish language issues. Nobody has mentioned them. We have the largest number of Irish speakers in the country in Dublin so I appeal to all three MEPs to keep that to the forefront of their work in Europe. It is very important to this country. The European institutions do not have the necessary linguistic infrastructure to provide that full equality to the Irish language in the European institutions and those of us who are Irish language speakers are very aware of the pressures on minority languages. Since January 2025, Irish has been an official language of the EU but we still have a road to go in relation to full equality. I appeal to the MEPs to provide the supports, and investment, for Irish-based people to train as linguists to support the equality of the Irish language in the European Union. I thank the MEPs for all the work they do. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Before I call on the next speaker, I welcome guests of Senator Eileen Flynn from Ardara Community Childcare and the Raphoe Community Playgroup. They are most welcome to Seanad \u00c9ireann. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Cathal Byrne  The MEPs are all most welcome to the Chamber today and I thank them very much for coming in. I have a very specific point to raise with them, which I raised it with some of their colleagues when they were before us a few months ago. It is the issue of a united Ireland. A number of years ago the former Taoiseach, Enda Kenny, secured a commitment that when a united Ireland takes place, it would automatically become a member of the EU. It is important there are funds put in place in this EU budget to prepare for that eventuality and I ask that the MEPs raise that matter for us. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gerard P. Craughwell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerard-P-Craughwell.S.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Gerard-P-Craughwell.S.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Gerard P. Craughwell  I thank the three MEPs for being here. All three of them stand out in my mind for one thing and that is that they do not always observe the party line and are sometimes willing to speak against their parties' positions on different things. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Regina Doherty","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Regina Doherty  Me? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gerard P. Craughwell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerard-P-Craughwell.S.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Gerard-P-Craughwell.S.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Gerard P. Craughwell  Ms Doherty showed that, particularly when she was Leader of this House.  The work of Mr. Barry Andrews on defence has been second to none and I find it somewhat disturbing it does not get more prominence in this country. It really is important.  I hate to say this to Mr. \u00d3 R\u00edord\u00e1in that, in speaking about housing we found out yesterday that seven out of every ten 18- to 21-year-olds in this country want to get out of the country and it is down to housing. I see massive amounts of housebuilding around Dublin but somehow or other, the message is not getting through that there is work being done.  The ideal behind the European community was a Single Market, that we would all be in the one market and working together. How do the three MEPs feel about the fact the Department of Defence has ceded all responsibility for procurement to one country, namely France, and somehow or other that every tender that goes out, France wins? Where does that sit in the idea of an open, transparent and free market?  There has been much talk in this country over the past few days about an increase in the defence budget of 43%. There has not been an increase of 43%. Ranging from \u20ac1.05 billion in 2022, I think, to \u20ac1.49 billion in 2026 is not a 43% increase because we are not taking inflation into account and we are not looking at some of the other parameters that feed into that.  As three of the MEPs representing Ireland, which is notionally a neutral country, in the middle of what is the worst geopolitical situation we have had since the Cold War, are they satisfied this country is actually putting forward its best foot on defence? Are we not just playing with words in this country? I admire Mr. Andrews for speaking out on defence and indeed Ms Doherty. It is not a vote-getter in this country. Yet we depend massively on foreign direct investment, FDI, particularly from the United States. If there was a serious incident in this country, do the MEPs agree that there would be a flight of FDI? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aubrey McCarthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Aubrey McCarthy  I thank the three MEPs for being here today. It has probably been covered but I have worked in homelessness for the past number of years. I worked with Mr. R\u00edord\u00e1in and Ms Regina Doherty on that. I have never seen numbers like what we see at the moment. There are 17,527 people in emergency accommodation and I spoke today about 5,659 children. That number does not cover people sleeping in their cars, on couches, etc. I set up an organisation 20 years ago called Tiglin. We work with people that are marginalised and we are seeing the face of homelessness absolutely change. I spoke recently in the House about a young man who came into the Lighthouse Caf\u00e9 on Pearse Street for dinner and we got talking. He has a job. He was given notice by his landlord that he was going to be evicted so he had to leave and he is in a tent in the Sandymount region. He is not the typical cohort of homeless people that we would have been used to.  I hope Europe is finally acting. I know it has published its first ever affordable housing plan and proposed a Council recommendation on fighting housing exclusion. In November, Dublin will host the EU Ministers with responsibility for homelessness. I have two questions. First, the Commission's proposal asks every member to report back every five years. Is that frequent enough to hold people to account or does the target need to be stronger? Second, what have the MEPs seen work in other member states that we could not only study but copy and make work here?  Europe is committed to ending homelessness by 2030 and Ireland has adopted that commitment as well. However, I was in this House ten years ago when we were going to do away with homelessness by 2020, so I have seen these targets move.  I was in Ukraine two weeks ago and visited Kyiv and saw what was happening on the ground. The EU's \u20ac90 billion loan was discussed. That covers Ukraine's needs for this year and next but they were asking for it to be front-loaded so that some of 2027's loan could be taken in 2026. What is the plan going forward and how can Ireland as a neutral country best contribute? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I will now call on our members of the European Parliament to give their concluding remarks along with our Leas-Chathaoirleach and myself. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alice-Mary Higgins  Could I just ask that the direct questions I had asked around trade agreements be addressed because they are so pertinent? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mary Fitzpatrick  Chair, while we are having interruptions, can we have a correction to the record on the statement made about the GPO and Moore Street? It is just factually incorrect for anyone to say in this House that there is nothing happening with the GPO and Moore Street. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I know----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mary Fitzpatrick  Over \u20ac500 million has been allocated to it. The Moore Street national monument has gone to tender. It is disrespectful to the House and to everyone who watches and follows the workings of this House to mislead. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  As Senators will be aware, notwithstanding that this is a debate----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mary Fitzpatrick  They are falsehoods and should be corrected. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Senators have opportunity to interrupt a Senator while he or she is speaking and the Senator in possession can give way or may not give way. The Senator interrupting has 30 seconds during which to make his or her point. Once the Senator sits down, unfortunately----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mary Fitzpatrick  I did not want to disrespect the other Senators who were speaking and I would not do that or them or to our visitors. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  It is not about disrespect----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mary Fitzpatrick  It is incredibly disrespectful for any Member at any point in time----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  The Standing Orders are----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mary Fitzpatrick  ----- to put falsehoods on the record of the House.  I really do not want to prolong the debate here because I want to hear from our MEPs, but I would appreciate if the Cathaoirleach would take it up with the Senator and ask him to correct the record. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Lorraine Clifford-Lee","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Lorraine-Clifford-Lee.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Lorraine-Clifford-Lee.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Lorraine Clifford-Lee  Hear, hear. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I believe the Senator who might have made that statement is no longer in the House so I cannot direct anybody to----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mary Fitzpatrick  I am sure the Cathaoirleach's office will be able to contact him. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  It is up to the Senators. This is a debating Chamber. Senators have the right to interrupt a Senator at any time during a debate and ask the Senator to allow them to make a point while the debate is ongoing. The Senator in possession does not have to give way, does not have to take the question and does not have to answer the question but that is the rule of the House. It is up to Senators. I am not the judge of what people say. I am not the judge of the orders as agreed by the House. Senators have the right to interrupt during a debate and question a Senator on any statement he or she makes. I now bring back in the members of the European Parliament and thank them again for their remarks so far. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Barry Andrews","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Barry Andrews  I thank everyone for staying for the debate and for their contributions. In response to Senator Higgins, trade happens without trade agreements. We trade with lots of countries without a trade agreement on the basis of WTO rules but trade agreements give us leverage and allow us to introduce chapters to trade agreements, called trade and sustainable development chapters, with which the Senator is very familiar. That leverage allows us to engage with the likes of Indonesia, Mexico, Chile, New Zealand, Australia or any other countries on things like International Labour Organization, ILO conventions and human rights. We can argue about how well that leverage is used but we have no leverage without a trade agreement. All we have is trade on a most-favoured nation WTO basis. The trade and sustainable development chapter relating to New Zealand is state of the art. I would say that New Zealand puts us under more pressure than Ireland puts it under. That is the standard. The Senator asked about what we do as MEPs. MEPs on the trade committee have this role but I also have it as chair of the development committee. We very often provide opinions on trade matters.  As regards corporate capture, the process that has led to this agenda on competitiveness is a recognition that the situation we have with China and the weaponisation of vulnerabilities in our supply chain dependencies have to be addressed. It is not just the question of having a massive trade deficit with China, which is something like \u20ac1 billion per day. It is also the danger of these supply chains being weaponised and it also means that we cannot rely on batteries. Electric vehicles are hollowing out European industry and it is naive of us not to address this. That is exactly what Mario Draghi did in his report. He made many recommendations about how we need to address all of these issues. Sadly, only about 15% of the recommendations in the Draghi report from two years ago have been implemented and most of those are in defence. I often hear people say that this is just for the German car industry but we need the German car industry to be successful. The reason the AfD is doing as well as it is across Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, Berlin and other parts of Germany is not because of migration. It is because the German economy is not functioning. The German economy has experienced a catastrophe because of all of these things and it is in our towering interest that the German economy thrives as a central part of the EU.  The Senator also raised the question of aid and I am very grateful she did. We have an existential crisis in official development assistance. There are girls who are marrying younger and girls who are not going to school. There is an increase in cholera. There are incredible impacts from the retreat from aid and it is something we have to attach to the Irish Government's priority around values. If values are a serious thing for the Irish Government in the context of this Presidency, it must have resources and budgetary implications, which means the EU budget around official development assistance.  I agree with Senator Clifford-Lee about food security, which is a priority. There are four Irish MEPs on the agriculture committee so we are extremely well represented at parliamentary level. The Senator mentioned costs such as those involving energy, land and compliance. We are pushing an agenda on energy and compliance around trying to bring down energy costs. That is all about taking away our dependence on fossil fuels but also the simplification of European rules.  Senator Cathal Byrne asked about a united Ireland, which is a priority for all of us. Some of us are having a debate this evening in Belfast on the implications of the European connection. There are lots of elements in the Good Friday Agreement and the Windsor Framework that are not properly implemented that would really advance the case and use the EU as a platform in that regard.  I thank Senator Craughwell for his kind remarks. Public procurement in the EU is extremely well-policed. If a company loses a tender because somebody has only one client, it will go to court. I do not believe the Department of Defence is able to walk a circle around public procurement rules at EU level. However, the Senator may have other information. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gerard P. Craughwell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerard-P-Craughwell.S.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Gerard-P-Craughwell.S.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Gerard P. Craughwell  It does not just apply to defence. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Barry Andrews","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Barry Andrews  Before Senator McCarthy came in, I made reference to some of the recommendations and findings of a report I did in 2023 on Irish housing issues in a European context. We compared it to some other member states and specific towns. I looked at it with a Dublin focus and I can share the recommendations with the Senator. There are some really excellent ideas, with cost rental being the one that stands out. Once again, I thank the Cathaoirleach for taking this initiative and thank all of my colleagues for their very good engagement on this debate today. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Regina Doherty","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Regina Doherty  To follow on from what Mr. Andrews said on the MFF negotiations and international aid, we have seen how the actions of the US Government have nearly given permission to other European countries to do something similar. Mr. Andrews spoke about how values make up one of the pillars of our Presidency. It is in here where we have an opportunity to show what we really do value. We recognise how many children are still dying from malnutrition in Africa alone and it is on our watch. I understand that CAP, cohesion and defence spending are really important. Everything is really important but there is nothing as intrinsically important as making sure a child does not die from starvation in 2026. That part of the values we purport to hold as Irish citizens and humans has to be shown in the walk we walk, not just the talk we talk. It is true in these negotiations for the MFF budget.  In response to Senator Clifford-Lee, I could not be happier when I saw Shane Halpin, who grows 12 million cucumbers every year. He is a gorgeous young man and a real testament to the wonderful growing and initiatives in north County Dublin. The Senator is right that most of the time, people do not think there are any farmers in Dublin. There are plenty of farmers in Dublin with plenty of voices when they have issues. I wish Shane Halpin well.  Notwithstanding the fact that we are not on an equal level in Europe with regard to the Irish language yet, there are lots of opportunities for Irish-speaking jobs in Europe. Anybody who wants to know about this just has to contact us and we will be happy to help them.  Senator Cathal Byrne is right. Enda did ensure that what would happen with a united Ireland if and when it ever happens - please God in my lifetime - we would obviously immediately join the 27 member states. To that end, we can see PEACEPLUS, which is the co-operation and a very large fund of \u20ac1 billion shared between the EU, the UK, the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, will make sure we maintain the relationships, the peace and the growth and development of opportunity and co-operation with each other in the North of the island. That is really important.  I never knew anything about security and defence before I came to the Seanad but I have learned an awful lot in the past two years. The one thing I am really cognisant of is the fact that despite the fact we are increasing our defence spend, which is obvious, it is not at a rate that anybody thinks is really fruitful or is happy about. Regarding the reputation Ireland has because of our laggard approach over the past number of years, there are some quite strong feelings about it. I felt sorry for Kaja Kallas when she was here a couple of weeks ago because she had to field that defence from an Irish perspective when she has no part or act in it. The only defence I can make to colleagues when I am talking to them is that when I was first elected here in 2011, we could not have decided to spend money on defence and security as opposed to keeping the lights on, social insurance and the social welfare budget - all of the things that needed to be done at the time the IMF was here and was controlling our purse strings. I know that since then the country has been very lucky and is very wealthy, but there always seems to be something more pressing on which to spend our money. That is the only way I can balance that. We are not anywhere close to even being in the middle of the class.  We need to move our grades right up to the top.  In response to Senator McCarthy, something that really is a conversation within the European Union at present is homelessness. One of the recommendations from the report we did a number of months ago were around making sure that the housing first policy was enacted in every member state. Second and more importantly - it obviously has not been enacted yet - is to ensure that any child who is living in a rented accommodation cannot be evicted and, therefore, put into homelessness. It would be instructive if the latter was something that came as part of the simplification agenda that we will have after Christmas. As for something about even looking after the welfare of the children to make sure they do not go into poverty and into homelessness, even in my own party, I have considerable rows with people over the \u20ac20 billion child guarantee. I vote for it every time. I vote against my own party most of the time. I cannot understand, even from the logic of people who are pro-business and pro-European, those who do not see the value in looking after the future generations today to make sure that they will be the workers and the pension payers of the future. We need to rebalance that conversation. We need to look after our children to make sure that they never get themselves into vulnerable positions and some of the recommendations that we have in the housing report will do that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Aodh\u00e1n \u00d3 R\u00edord\u00e1in","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Aodh\u00e1n \u00d3 R\u00edord\u00e1in  I will touch on as many issues as I possibly can. In terms of trade agreements, they must be on the basis of human rights and international law. They must be on the basis of consumer rights, protecting consumer rights, workers' rights and environmental protections and we need trade agreements in order for the European Union to survive. We are in a very hostile environment with the United States of America openly waging a trade war and a tariff war against us. Agreements are important but they have to be on the basis of what I have said.  On homelessness, there is any amount of things we could do. We have mentioned what the Affordable Housing Act is hoping to do. I would like to see the MFF provide direct funding for housing first for approved housing bodies.  A lot of what we are doing, though, at European level, assumes that we have strong local government. The Minister, I am glad to say, last week accepted that we do not. I would like to see a much stronger mayoralty system in Ireland similar to what we have in Limerick. A directly-elected mayor for Dublin would be something that the Government should move on to facilitate having that civic leadership over a period, which is much more important than a ceremonial mayor because there is an assumption across the European member states when you are talking about housing that the mayors can drive the agenda and that is not the case in Ireland. That is a change that the Government should take on.  As for why we have issues, our tenant rights are not as strong as the mainstream norm in the European member states and when you have weaker tenant rights and greater powers of eviction, you have higher levels of homelessness. It is a bit like collective bargaining. We had the employment committee here in Dublin and they were a bit horrified at the relatively weak collective bargaining rights you have in Ireland, which leads to a higher proportion of workers in low pay. It used be the case that addiction drove people into homelessness. Now homelessness is driving people into addiction. It has gone completely the other way around. In fairness to my colleagues in the European Parliament, we are in different groups and we have different ideologies but we do not have the level of disagreement, I might say, in terms of what MEPs in other member states have when it comes to delivering on homelessness and housing our people. We all can fundamentally agree on that.  In terms of food security, I absolutely agree with what has been said.  \u00d3 thaobh labhairt na Gaeilge de, d\u00e9anaim mo dh\u00edcheall chomh minic agus is f\u00e9idir liom. Le bheith f\u00e9ar\u00e1ilte, t\u00e1 an Feisire N\u00ed Mhurch\u00fa chun cinn \u00f3 thaobh st\u00e1das agus \u00fas\u00e1id na Gaeilge de i bParlaimint na hEorpa. D\u00e9anaim mo dh\u00edcheall chomh minic agus is f\u00e9idir. Uaireanta, cuireann s\u00e9 iontas ar mo chomhghleacaithe go bhfuil \u00e1r dteanga f\u00e9in againn in \u00c9irinn. Uaireanta, ceapann siad nach bhfuil i gceist leis an nGaeilge ach an bealach a n-\u00fas\u00e1idtear an B\u00e9arla in \u00c9irinn. T\u00e1 s\u00e9 go maith gur f\u00e9idir linn \u00e1r dteanga n\u00e1isi\u00fanta a \u00fas\u00e1id.  On a united Ireland, that is a vibrant discussion. Mr. Andrews and I are on a panel this evening in Belfast on what that means for membership of the European Union. In my own case, in the S and D group, what I have facilitated is that the SDLP, even though the North of Ireland is no longer a member of the European Union because the UK has left, now has observer status within my own party group meetings. It is a small gesture but it is important for that facility for Northern politicians to be in and around the European Parliament. We are serious, though, about maximising the rights that Irish citizens have who have a birthright of EU citizenship on the basis that they were born in the North of Ireland and the representation for them and at least observer status for Northern politicians is something we need to take seriously.  On security, to be honest, we need to have a very mature conversation on where Ireland stands in the world. We are no longer the poor man of Europe happy to be in the room. We were 50 years ago. It is not like that any more. We are the sixth highest contributor to the European Union. We are the second highest per capita . We are taken seriously and we need to maximise that seriousness and that leadership when it comes to big existential, difficult and uncomfortable questions on Ireland and our nationhood and the threats that are facing us to the east and to the west. That means that the exceptionalism that we used to wallow in to a degree will be challenged and we have to mature enough to have conversations within our own citizenry about those challenges. As ever, we are always proud to be European. Membership of the European Union has done more for our nationhood and for our citizens than probably any other decision that was made over the past 100 years. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Before I call on the Leader and then the Leas-Chathaoirleach to respond and conclude the debate, I thank the MEPs for being part of this and all our Senators for their questions and the engagement in the questions and answers session, which is an important part of that.  I welcome to the Gallery guests of Senator McDowell who are from Indiana. They are most welcome here today. All of them are from Indiana, from the business leaders. It is part of 140-strong delegation that is over here from Indiana as part of the education sector, including university leaders, business leaders, political leaders and my good friend, Representative Tim O'Brien, who was involved in establishing the Indiana-Ireland Trade Commission through legislation in Indiana. I will be with them tomorrow morning as part of their ongoing engagement. I actually was having a discussion about the trade commissions with our MEPs and how our MEPs, as Representative O'Brien can clearly see here, are our voice on the ground and our eyes and ears on what is happening at a European level in terms of business, politics, and global diplomacy and security. In many ways, that is the kind of link between Indiana, Ireland and from there on into the European Union. I thank them all for being here this afternoon.  I will now call on the Leader and then the Leas-Chathaoirleach. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  I thank the Cathaoirleach. I thank the three MEPs, Barry, Regina and Aodh\u00e1n, for being here today.  First, I know we did it in this House in June but, considering Barry is here, on behalf of the House, I pass on our condolences to him and his family on David's passing. I am sure the summer was difficult but in time, I am sure Barry will reflect on his career and the service he gave to this country with great pride.  This is the third debate we have had with all MEPs across the country. This one was not as boisterous as some of the others but it has been as insightful. The role they play is so critical to the future of our country and sometimes, from a layperson, it is not often seen. These debates that we have in this House give the public the opportunity to understand the important work that the MEPs do. They themselves do it in their own media performances and getting messages out but when this started in the last term, it showed an important interaction between this House and the work they do in Europe.  No doubt the past couple of months and the next couple of months have been a busy time for these MEPs, but a lot of the work they do is representing Ireland on a global scale, and particularly as we hold the presidency in promoting Ireland. A lot of that is unseen and underground and although they represent different political groups in Europe, their ambition is similar. It is for the betterment of this country and the people on this island.  I wish them well over the next couple of years. They are almost halfway through and elections come quicker than they think. They work extremely hard. I ask them to continue that work into the future because it is at a European level that most of the geopolitical changes we are seeing right across the world are managed.  The work the MEPs do at European level is critical for the future, not just for Ireland or the European Union but the whole country. I wish them well and thank them for being here today and respecting this Chamber. Two former Members are here, which is great, and a former Leader. I wish our MEPs and their families well because it is a difficult job and they are away a lot. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  I thank MEPs Andrews, Doherty and \u00d3 R\u00edord\u00e1in. Certainly, the insight they have shared with us is wonderful. It was an opportune time, especially as we are almost halfway through the European Presidency. They are our voice and advocates in Europe. Their voices very much shape the future of Ireland, and not only Ireland but our citizens. It is really important for them to share their insights of the different committees and workings and to answer the engagement with Senators. I thank all of the Senators who came here and asked their questions. There were an awful lot of thought-provoking questions and answers that arose.  When we think of Europe, we think of peace, reconciliation, economic development, housing and all of the different topics that were covered. There is so much importance between Ireland and Europe. It is important our MEPs are here on an annual basis for us in this House to strengthen our ties with Europe. I wish them the very best into the future and thank them for all they are doing on our behalf. I thank the Cathaoirleach and the Seanad team for having them here today because it is really important to get that message out there, and for the public to realise what is happening in Europe and the role our MEPs have to play. That is really important. I thank all involved and wish them all the best. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Before I conclude, it would be appropriate, given the themes we are talking about in our Presidency of the European Union, to quote a previous MEP, John Hume, who won the Nobel Peace Prize, who always talked about what he described as a single transferable speech:  Difference is of the essence of humanity. Difference is an accident of birth and it should therefore never be the source of hatred or conflict. The answer to difference is to respect it. Therein lies a most fundamental principle of peace \u2013 respect for diversity.  I thank our MEPs for their contributions, their ongoing engagement with the Seanad and their work in Europe on behalf of the citizens of Ireland. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionra\u00ed ar 3.53 p.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 5.41 p.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Sitting suspended at 3.53 p.m. and resumed at 5.41 p.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Address to Seanad \u00c9ireann by Members of the European Parliament"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-23\/debate\/dbsect_10","debateType":"motion","bill":null,"showAs":"Childcare: Motion","counts":{"speechCount":31,"speakerCount":15},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_10","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dee Ryan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dee-Ryan.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Dee-Ryan.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Margaret Murphy O'Mahony","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fiona O'Loughlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Anne Rabbitte","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Anne-Rabbitte.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Anne-Rabbitte.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Conway","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Conway.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joe-Conway.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gareth Scahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pauline Tully","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Norma Foley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Norma-Foley.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Norma-Foley.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Noonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alison Comyn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanne Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dee Ryan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dee-Ryan.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Dee-Ryan.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Dee Ryan)  T\u00e1 f\u00e1ilte roimh an Aire, an Teachta Foley, chuig an Seanad. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Margaret Murphy O'Mahony","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Margaret Murphy O'Mahony  I move:  \u201cThat Seanad \u00c9ireann:  recognises that:  - early childhood is a time of great opportunity to shape a child\u2019s development and build a secure foundation for their future;  - for children to achieve their full potential they need opportunities for care and education;  - the role of the early years\u2019 educator is valuable, as they play an important part in supporting children's development, learning and care;  agrees that:  - many families across the country are paying high fees for childcare places;  - demand for childcare remains higher than available supply in certain parts of the country, particularly for younger children;  - in a very competitive labour market and with low levels of unemployment, recruitment and retention is a challenge for the childcare sector;  notes that:  - Budget 2026 allocated a record of nearly \u20ac1.5 billion for early learning and childcare, a 12 per cent increase on last year and up from \u20ac260 million a decade ago;  - Core Funding for 2026\/27 is a record \u20ac482 million, a \u20ac90 million increase year-on year, and an 86 per cent increase since its 2022\/23 launch;  - over 93 per cent of eligible providers participated in Core Funding for the last full programme year, reflecting sustained sector-wide support;  - a key condition of receiving the significant State funding that is available through Core Funding is that a partner service adheres to the fee management system, which includes a freeze on fees at 2021 levels and fee caps;  - backed by \u20ac135 million in capital funding under the National Development Plan, the State is directly building and acquiring childcare facilities for the first time, with a number of new locations due to be confirmed this year;  - Nurturing Skills: The Workforce Plan for Early Learning and Care and School-Age Childcare 2022 \u2013 2028 aims to support and strengthen the ongoing process of professionalisation for the workforce in early years and school age childcare;  - ringfenced pay increases of \u20ac90 million over two years (\u20ac45 million in 2025 and \u20ac45 million in 2026) are in place to support improved pay in the sector;  acknowledges that:  - average out of pocket costs to parents for childcare are down 36 per cent since 2022;  - already, many families pay less than the target maximum of \u20ac200 per month;  - the number of childcare services is rising, with a net increase of 255 services in 2025;  - enrolments increased by 25 per cent between 2022 and 2025, from 197,000 to 247,000 children;  - this growth occurred despite a 12 per cent decline in the under-five population over the same period;  - childcare closures have decreased by 25 per cent since 2022;  - the early years\u2019 workforce has expanded to over 42,000 staff, a 36 per cent increase since 2020;  - the latest Employment Regulation Order (ERO) delivered an average 10 per cent pay rise to over two-thirds of the workforce;  calls for:  - affordable, accessible, and high-quality childcare to be available to all families across the country;  - the reduction of childcare fees further in order to progress towards the target maximum of \u20ac200 per month, per child within the lifetime of this Government;  - continued State investment in childcare capacity, including the building or purchasing of State-owned facilities in areas of unmet need, especially those in rural areas and those with high population density;  - the prioritisation of co-location for all new school building projects, with the primary school and childcare facility located on the one campus, in order to create a more integrated education environment, and to ease pressure on parents when it comes to multiple school drop-off points;  - the Government to continue to support recruitment and retention in the sector; and  - the implementation of the Continuous Professional Development actions in the Nurturing Skills Workforce Plan by 2028 to enhance professionalisation and attract and retain a high-quality early years and school age care workforce.\u201d "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fiona O'Loughlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Fiona O'Loughlin  I second the motion. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dee Ryan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dee-Ryan.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Dee-Ryan.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Dee Ryan)  The debate will follow our normal pattern. Each Senator will have six minutes. We will begin with Senator Margaret Murphy O\u2019Mahony who, as the proposer, has 16 minutes. As I understand it, she wishes to share time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Margaret Murphy O'Mahony","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Margaret Murphy O'Mahony  That is correct. It will be divided into one slot of ten minutes and two slots of three minutes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dee Ryan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dee-Ryan.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Dee-Ryan.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Dee Ryan)  Senator Margaret Murphy O\u2019Mahony will have ten minutes, while Senators Fiona O\u2019Loughlin and Anne Rabbitte will have three minutes each. Is that agreed? Agreed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Margaret Murphy O'Mahony","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Margaret Murphy O'Mahony  Cuirim f\u00e1ilte roimh an Aire, an Teachta Foley. I am pleased to speak today on this important Fianna F\u00e1il motion on childcare. At its heart, this motion recognises a simple truth. While some families continue to face challenges in accessing affordable, high-quality childcare, substantial progress has been made in recent years. We must continue to build on that progress. Fianna F\u00e1il is committed to ensuring that Ireland is a good place to raise a family where every child is given an equal start in life and equal opportunities to succeed.  We know that early childhood is one of the most important stages in a person\u2019s life. It is a time of enormous opportunity when children develop the foundations that will support them throughout their education and into adulthood. To achieve their full potential, children need access to quality care and early education, and parents and guardians need the necessary support to give their children the best possible start. That is why the Government has made childcare one of its key priorities.  Since 2020, State investment in early learning and childcare has more than doubled, increasing from \u20ac638 million to \u20ac1.52 billion in 2026. This represents an unprecedented level of commitment to children, families and the childcare sector. The focus of that investment has been clear - reducing costs for families, improving accessibility, supporting providers, increasing capacity and improving pay and conditions for educators and school-aged childcare practitioners. Budget 2026 further demonstrated that commitment, allocating almost \u20ac1.5 billion to early learning and childcare. This is a 12% increase on the previous year and a remarkable contrast to the \u20ac260 million investment just one decade ago.  We should not underestimate the significance of these investments. They are delivering real benefits for families throughout the country. Through the Government\u2019s phase 2 reforms under Shaping the Future, we are pursuing long-term challenges to ensure childcare becomes even more affordable, accessible and sustainable. These reforms include a commitment to reduce parental fees to a maximum of \u20ac200 per month over the lifetime of this Government; strengthen supply-side funding for providers; improve pay and conditions for staff; and increase childcare capacity through both existing services and new State-led provision where gaps exist. Importantly, these reforms are informed by extensive consultation with parents, providers, educators and stakeholders. The objective is to develop a childcare system that works for everyone, including children, families, workers and providers.  The progress already achieved is substantial. This year alone, approximately 277,000 children will benefit from the national childcare scheme subsidies. More than 105,000 children will access free preschool education through the early childhood care and education programme, ECCE, while up to 9,000 children with disabilities will receive support through the access and inclusion model. Additional investment is being targeted towards disadvantaged children through the Equal Start initiative.  One of the most significant developments has been the introduction and expansion of core funding. Core funding has grown by 86% since its introduction and currently stands at over \u20ac482 million. More than 4,600 childcare providers are participating in this scheme, representing over 93% of eligible services. In return for this support, providers agree to fee controls, including fee freezes and caps, thus providing certainty and protection for families facing the cost of childcare.  For parents, the results are tangible. Average childcare fees are now 36% lower than in 2022. For a typical full-day childcare place, the maximum weekly fee has fallen significantly, delivering savings of more than \u20ac600 annually for many families. One quarter of families are already paying less than the Government\u2019s target maximum fee of \u20ac200 per month. Targeted measures also have ensured that support reaches those who need it most. Low-income and lone-parent families have seen childcare costs fall dramatically as a proportion of income. Income thresholds have been increased to ensure more families qualify for higher subsidy levels. Additional supports for families with multiple children have reduced accessible income calculations and enabled more households to access greater assistance. These measures help to ease financial pressure at a time when many families continue to face broader cost-of-living challenges.  Of course, affordability is only one part of the challenge. Families must be able to access childcare places when and where they need them. The Government recognises the concern that exists with childcare capacity. However, the evidence shows positive momentum. The number of registered childcare services is increasing. Service closures are declining and enrolments increased by 25% between 2022 and 2025, despite the population of children under the age of five declining by 12% over the same period. There was also a net increase in providers in 2025 and we are seeing significant growth in the workforce. More than 42,000 people now work in the sector, representing growth of over one third since 2022. Qualification levels continue to rise, reflecting a more professional, skilled and supported workforce.  Through core funding and successive employment regulation orders, significant resources have been directed towards improving pay and conditions. The latest employment regulation order delivered an average pay increase of 10% for over two thirds of workers, while further increases are proposed for 2026. These improvements are essential because high-quality childcare depends on attracting and retaining highly skilled educators. The role of early years educators is invaluable. They support children in their learning, development and well-being during some of the most formative years of life. The Government must continue to support the professionalisation of the sector and the implementation of the objectives contained in the Nurturing Skills plan.  I acknowledge the important contribution of childminders across the country. Childminders provide an essential service for many families and communities. The new framework has been developed following consultation with the sector. It aims to strike the right balance by ensuring standards while recognising the unique nature of home-based childcare. Ongoing review and consultation will ensure these arrangements continue to work effectively.  Another important development is the State\u2019s direct involvement in childcare provision for the first time. Supported by \u20ac135 million in capital funding, the State is building and acquiring childcare facilities with the aim of creating up to 800 new places in 2026. This is a significant policy shift that will help to address gaps in capacity, particularly in areas where private provision alone has not been sufficient.  The first site in Shanganagh Castle in Dublin has already been secured and is expected to open later this year.  This motion is balanced and realistic. It recognises that many families still face significant childcare costs but it also acknowledges that demand remains greater than supply in some parts of the country, particularly for younger children. It accepts that recruitment and retention remain challenges in a highly competitive labour market. It recognises, importantly, the substantial progress that has been made and the clear direction of travel.  The motion calls for affordable, accessible, and high-quality childcare for all families; further reductions in childcare fees in budget 2027; continued investment in childcare capacity, including State-owned facilities, where there is unmet need; greater co-location of childcare facilities with new schools; and continued support for recruitment, retention and professional development in the workforce.  Beyond the figures, funding allocation and policy reforms, we should remind ourselves why this matters so much. Childcare is not simply a service; it is an investment in our children, our families, our communities , our economy and our future. When families can access affordable, high-quality childcare, parents have greater opportunities to participate in the workforce, if they so choose, to pursue education, if they so choose, and to build financial security for their families. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dee Ryan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dee-Ryan.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Dee-Ryan.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Dee Ryan)  I welcome to the Public Gallery the members of the European Committee of the Regions. We hope they have been enjoying their visit to Leinster House. This group is an advisory body to the EU and they are guests of the Department of housing. They have joined us for a debate on a motion relating to childcare. The Minister for Children, Disability and Equality, Deputy Foley, has also joined us for the debate. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fiona O'Loughlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Fiona O'Loughlin  I also welcome the delegation. I took the opportunity in the House yesterday to mention the important work the Committee of the Regions does and the fact it had the bureau in Mullingar yesterday. I also congratulated the leader of the Irish delegation, Gillian Coughlan, on being the incoming leader of the Renew group. It is the first time an Irish councillor has taken this position. It is great to see Gillian. I hope all our guests have an excellent evening and a really good trip.  I thank the Minister for being here. It gives me great pride to second the motion. There was a myriad of topics we, as a Fianna F\u00e1il group, could have taken for our first Private Members' business after recess but we agreed collectively this was one of the main topics that impacted so many people in the areas we live in. Weekly, if not daily, we have people contacting us, particularly in developing areas, on childcare and its importance. The motion refers to affordable, accessible and high-quality childcare and to the need to support workers in the childcare system. We really depend on them. The motion is strong on continued professional development for them. For childcare to work, it has to work for everybody. It has to work for the families, for the proprietors and operators of the physical facilities and for those working in the system. If we did not have proper childcare, how would many people who work in this building come here? Think of all the wonderful people who help organise our days as Members of the House. It is really important.  The Minister has done a lot of work and a lot of investment has gone in. We are on a pathway to reducing the cost but having the physical places is every bit as important, as is supporting childminders in the home. I was very struck recently at a meeting at quite a large employment facility in Mayo, where 300 people worked, that it was the first issue the employers brought up with us as a delegation. The Minister, Deputy Chambers, was there. They faced a challenge as employers in getting women to come back into the workforce after their maternity leave. There was a real problem in accessing childcare. We need to look at it from the employers' point of view too. They want to support those who need to avail of it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Anne Rabbitte","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Anne-Rabbitte.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Anne-Rabbitte.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Anne Rabbitte  The Minister is very welcome to the House. I am glad to make an opening contribution and I want to acknowledge that State investment in early learning and childcare has more than doubled, with approximately \u20ac1.5 billion in 2026. Budget 2026 provided \u20ac1.48 billion for early learning and childcare, supporting the national childcare scheme, ECCE, the access and inclusion model and core funding.  Childcare goes beyond cr\u00e8che- or centre-based childcare provisions. I agree with Senator O'Loughlin that it is also the after-schools and childminders. The number of childminders has dwindled over the years. I do not wish to fly a kite in the House this evening but we need to double the tax incentive for childminders at home. We give them a tax incentive of \u20ac14,000 but we need to look way beyond that to get more childminders into provision of services. People have different working hours. There are flexible working hours and people on shift duties. The childminder provides a home from home and a flexible experience. Many of the childcare centres operate Monday to Friday, 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. or 8 a.m. to 4 p.m., but parents, including nurses and garda\u00ed, need a lot of flexibility.  The Minister's portfolio includes disability as well. Could we support the centres in expanding the access and inclusion model, AIM? It has been phenomenal in its role of getting children accustomed to going to cr\u00e8che and preparing them for the school experience. At the other end of it in after-schools, could we encourage providers to open their doors more so mums or dads might not have to choose to finish at 3 p.m. when a child finishes? If there was that flexibility, a parent could do the normal working day. The Minister is doing phenomenal work in the Department. This is a brief she takes very seriously. She works closely with the sector on it. We need to look beyond centre-based childcare, focus on childminders and think about how we could expand AIM. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Conway","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Conway.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joe-Conway.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joe Conway  Cuirim f\u00e1ilte mh\u00f3r roimh an Aire agus \u00ed anseo don d\u00edosp\u00f3ireacht seo. I am delighted to make my small contribution to this debate, which is timely and valuable. Notwithstanding the fact we have a beautiful country and have so many assets in our beauty and in our resources, we sometimes overlook the fact that probably one of the greatest resources we have - this will come as no surprise to anyone, particularly those of us who served in education - is our young people, our children. They tangibly and unquestionably are the future, the well-being and the welfare of our country.  When we talk about childcare, we are talking about a vast number of young people who are being looked after by the childcare industry, which does invaluable work on behalf of parents or guardians who are out at work or unable to look after children. I want to sing a little tune for the, according to 2022 CSO figures, roughly 100,000 totally unpaid child carers. Mostly, these are grandparents who look after children without any financial reward or tax consideration. Many of them would completely eschew the idea of payment for their work. It is a reciprocal and symbiotic thing. These people get a huge amount back through being closer to their grandchildren as they grow from babyhood to toddler stages.  These grandparents absolutely rejoice in seeing all those stages. We have an expression that \"Eaten bread is soon forgotten\" but in the case of the input of grandparents or those unpaid carers, it is not so much eaten bread that is soon forgotten but eaten bread that is never remembered at all. I do not think I have ever heard any of us politicians publicly stand up and validate the work that is done. Maybe I have missed it but I do not believe I have ever heard a Minister, the Taoiseach or the T\u00e1naiste celebrate and validate in some public way the work that these people do. It should be not just once but should be done regularly. If we extrapolate from the CSO figures, on a replacement value alone it probably would cost \u20ac5 billion to \u20ac6 billion. On the overheads measurement, it would be in the order of getting closer to \u20ac20 billion. It is phenomenal money that we are getting free of charge. It is done out of love and care. We should have some way of endorsing and validating the work done by these lovely people - grandparents in the main - and I ask the Minister to give serious thought to it with her Cabinet colleagues and maybe devise some scheme or some little word of recognition for those people who give so much to the State out of love. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gareth Scahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Gareth Scahill  The Minister is very welcome here this evening. I welcome the opportunity to speak on childcare. I commend my Government colleagues on bringing this motion to the House today because we have to be fair about where we are right now. There has been real progress. There has been record investment. The national childcare scheme has reduced costs for families. Average out-of-pocket childcare costs are down 36% since 2022. Budget 2026 provided almost \u20ac1.5 billion for early learning and childcare while core funding for 2026-27 has increased to a record \u20ac482 million. That is progress and we should acknowledge it but we also must acknowledge that we are not there yet. The programme for Government has committed us to progressively reducing the cost of childcare to \u20ac200 per month per child. We need to deliver on that commitment.  I wish to particularly acknowledge my colleague, Deputy Emer Currie, who has done a huge amount of work on childcare. Deputy Currie has consistently raised affordability but importantly, she has also focused on the other side of the problem, which is availability. We can increase subsidies and reduce costs but a subsidy is not much good to a parent if they cannot find a childcare place in the first place. That is still the reality for too many families. This motion recognises that demand remains higher than supply in certain parts of the country, particularly for younger children. We also have a challenge around staffing. Again, there has been progress there. The early years workforce has grown to more than 42,000 people. The employment regulation order delivered an average pay increase of 10% to more than two thirds of that workforce.  However, there is one figure from the Minister, Deputy Foley, that stood out to me. In the context of budget 2026, the Minister stated that improving recruitment and retention could help unlock approximately 17,000 existing childcare places that cannot currently be filled because of staff shortages. That is a remarkable figure. It tells us that this is not simply about building more childcare facilities. In some cases, the capacity is already there, but we do not have the people to staff it. At the same time, demand continues to grow. More than 286,000 children are expected to benefit from the national childcare scheme this year, which is approximately 35,000 more than last year. Now, we are moving into another important phase. The Government has committed \u20ac135 million to directly build and acquire childcare facilities for the first time. The initial State-led facilities are intended to provide more than 100 places each with thousands of additional places planned over the coming years. The motion before us recognises this major policy change, but it raises a question. Do we have a workforce plan capable of producing, and more importantly, retaining enough qualified early years educators to staff all these additional places?  An issue that I have repeatedly raised regarding plans in this House is that we cannot plan buildings today and then start thinking about the staff skills needed tomorrow. The workforce plan must go together with the capital plan. We have training routes available. The programme for Government commits us to removing barriers to training and introducing an earn-and-learn apprenticeship model where people can work in childcare while gaining qualifications and progressing their career. I would like to see more movement on that. If we are serious about creating all these additional childcare places, we need to make sure that we are training enough people, attracting them into the sector and giving them a reason to stay. When this motion references State investment in areas of unmet need, particularly in rural areas, the Minister will not be surprised about me mentioning Boyle, County Roscommon. Multiple representatives have made for the Boyle Community Childcare Committee and the work that they have done in the past. They did not simply say there was a problem; they did the work. They commissioned a detailed childcare needs analysis. They gathered the evidence that clearly demonstrated the shortage of childcare in Boyle and the surrounding area. In a break from norm, I acknowledge Deputy Claire Kerrane, who has consistently advocated for additional childcare provision in Boyle. This also has been a real cross-party effort locally. I recognise Deputy Martin Daly, the Minister of State, Deputy Frankie Feighan and Councillors Liam Callaghan and Sean Moylan, who have all highlighted the need and worked to move this project forward.  There is an important point here. We can all regularly call publicly for Government intervention. That is part of politics, and those calls are important. Ultimately, if want to see something delivered, we must bring that immediate need directly into the Government, put the evidence on the table and make sure that the people making the decisions understand the urgency of it. That is why I particularly wish to acknowledge the Minister, Deputy Chambers. He came to Boyle. He met Deputy Daly and me. We sat in the family resource centre in Boyle. We listened to the community representatives - the people involved - and heard directly about the difficulties that families are facing. The case for Boyle has been raised by us all at the highest level in Government. I acknowledge the Taoiseach and T\u00e1naiste for listening and understanding why this is so important for Boyle and north Roscommon. I acknowledge the Minister for her engagement on this particular issue. Last week when the D\u00e1il returned, Deputy Kerrane raised the issue of Boyle with the Minister. The Minister's response indicated that an announcement on locations for the State-led childcare facility is due shortly. I am certainly not going to pre-empt any announcement on that. Boyle has made the case. The evidence is there. The need is there. The community has done the work. The Government now has the mechanism to respond to that. For the first time, the State is directly building and acquiring childcare facilities in areas where the existing system has not been able to meet demand.  I also strongly support the point of colocation childcare, which is mentioned in this motion. Councillor Caroline Brady in Lucan recently raised this with me and highlighted the issue regarding Aderrig in Adamstown near Lucan. Senator Curley is there as well. We sit on the education committee. If we are building these schools, colocation is a very important factor. I have run out of time. I met a nurse in Roscommon on Monday. The nurse was doing a very important job in a busy healthcare facility. When she saw me coming through the door, she mentioned the lack of childcare facilities and the decision that she has to make in the next three months of whether to continue in her important and necessary role or to look after her kids because of the lack of that facility. I will leave the Minister with that thought. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pauline Tully","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Pauline Tully  Cuirim f\u00e1ilte roimh an Aire. I welcome the opportunity to speak on this motion.  Childcare is extremely important. Early years and school-aged childcare are fundamental to a child's development, to family well-being and to the social and economic life of our society. It needs to be a service that is accessible, affordable, sustainable and of the highest quality. There are a number of different points that deal with different issues here. I will look at affordability first. There is a commitment in the programme for Government to reduce the cost of childcare to \u20ac200 a month. I think Sinn F\u00e9in was the first party to bring forward this proposal prior to the most recent election. This was also committed to by the Government parties, which is very welcome, but we have not got to that point yet and we need to. I recognise that some families are only paying that or less but many families are paying a lot more.  It can be like a second mortgage for them, so that needs to be addressed first.  Affordability is one thing, but availability is another. If you cannot avail of a place, the amount of money does not matter. We have up to 46,000 children under the age of three waiting for a place. I have had a mother in tears on the phone to my office because she could not get a childcare place for her child and could not return to work. I was talking to another woman who was a special needs teacher who, when her last child was born, ended up giving up her job for three years. Her child was three before she could access a childcare place and she is now trying to return to work, but there are issues there because she is at a financial loss; she has been out of work for a few years. You also lose experience and gaining seniority in your workplace. Again, it is mostly women this affects. I am not saying it is all women, but it is mostly women.  The main issue affecting availability is recruitment and retention. We need to see much better pay for our early years educators because many of them are highly qualified with level 7 or 8 degrees, yet they are getting barely above the minimum wage. I welcome the increase announced in the minimum rates of pay for educators. However, it is not good enough that some employers have delayed this for months. We need to see an improvement in and a more stable level of pay because people who are working in this sector are leaving it to go into jobs as SNAs or teachers because of better pay and better conditions, as well as more job security which we all need in this day and age with the cost of living and difficulties in acquiring a mortgage to obtain housing.  We also need to see better conditions for our early school educators. Continuous professional development, CPD, is so important. Many of our educators have to access that CPD in their own time or at their own cost. I recognise the provisions included within core funding but many providers do not recognise that as such and use it for general administration time, so staff do not see it. It should not be an additional or optional element of the system. I really think it benefits our children if our staff within that sector receive continuous professional development on an ongoing basis, which leads to a much better quality service for all our children.  I would also love to get an update on the progress of the development of the State-led services. It says in the motion that \"the State is directly building and acquiring childcare facilities for the first time\", which I welcome. It was also announced in last year's budget, so I would like to know where those facilities are. How many facilities have been built or acquired, and when will they be operational? How many children will be facilitated in those facilities?  The motion also mentions \"the prioritisation of co-location for all new school building projects, with the primary school and childcare facility located on the one campus\". I think that makes absolute sense and would lead to better communication and co-operation between the two sectors, which is not happening at the moment. Again, it is something we need to be looking at. In fact, there needs to be a plan for the future of childcare. I met with Early Childhood Ireland earlier today and there is a quote on the back of their literature which says, \"If you want to understand the future of a country, do not start in its universities. Start in its kindergartens, creches and nurseries.\" That is very important. Our education needs to start there and it needs to be of quality and properly supported.  I would really like to see a completely State-led service, similar to our primary school system where the State owns the buildings, pays the educators and ensures there is a quality service provided to our children. If our children were going into primary school and teachers were leaving every second week because they were moving to a different sector due to pay and conditions, there would be uproar. We need the same situation within our early education sector so that our children receive the education on a continuous basis from someone they are familiar with.  After-school care is also very important, but the ratio for after-school care is 1:12. We have an increased number of children with additional needs. They are maybe coming from a special class in a primary school where it is a ratio of one teacher and two SNAs to six children. They are then expected to go into a setting where there is only one person to 12 children. I know that when the Minister visited the community cr\u00e8che in my locality last year, this was raised with her at the time. There was a parent there who had twins who were in the local school in a special class and she needed after-school care. The facility was reluctant to take the twins, not because it did not want to help, but because it felt it could not keep them safe with that ratio. I have spoken to other providers who feel the exact same. This is an issue that needs to be addressed. We have AIMs but we do not have anything in the after-school facilities. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dee Ryan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dee-Ryan.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Dee-Ryan.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Dee Ryan)  Before I call the Minister to speak, I take this opportunity to welcome to the Chamber the UCD political science undergraduates from Spain and South Africa, who are guests of Deputy James O'Connor this evening. They are very welcome. They have joined us for an important debate on a motion on childcare, and the Minister for children is about to speak. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Norma Foley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Norma-Foley.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Norma-Foley.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Children, Disability and Equality (Deputy Norma Foley)  I join in welcoming Deputy O'Connor's guests. I hope they find the debate beneficial in what we are seeking to find a pathway forward through, which is very important. It is about putting children at the centre of the country and the services we provide for them.  I sincerely welcome the opportunity to speak with the House today on this very important motion. I thank my Fianna F\u00e1il colleagues for putting forward this motion. I also thank everybody here in the Chamber who has contributed, of all persuasions and none, because this is something we share. We share a positivity and an absolute determination to deliver to the very best of our ability for young people. I have always said that if we can get it right for children, then we ultimately get it right for society. I appreciate that shared objective here in the House.  The motion, as outlined, reflects a clear ambition I believe is shared among us all, which is that every child should have the opportunity to access high-quality early learning and childcare, and that every family should be able to afford those services. In addition, those who work in the sector should be valued and supported in the vital role they play in children's lives.  The motion also recognises a very important reality. While there remain significant challenges across the sector, Ireland has made substantial progress in recent years. The debate we are having today is no longer about whether the State should play a major role in supporting early learning and childcare. That question has been answered very clearly and resolutely. However, the challenge now is how we continue to build, strengthen and improve the system that has emerged through unprecedented investment and reform in recent years.  The foundation for that programme has been sustained Government investment. In recent years, public investment in early learning and childcare has increased to levels that would have been unimaginable just a decade ago. Annual expenditure now exceeds \u20ac1.5 billion, reflecting a clear commitment by the Government to transform the sector and recognise early learning and childcare as an essential public service. This investment has been driven by a clear understanding of the benefits for every individual child, their parents and guardians, our society and our economy. High-quality early learning and childcare supports a child\u2019s development, assists parents to participate in employment and education, contributes to social inclusion and strengthens the economic and social fabric of communities throughout the country. This has all been articulated already by the speakers at this point. Importantly, this investment has not been confined to any single programme or initiative. Rather, it has supported a strategic and integrated programme of reform which is improving affordability, accessibility, inclusion, quality and sustainability across the entire sector.  The phase 1 report on Shaping the Future: The Early Years Action Plan sets out measures to achieve key programme for Government commitments on the affordability, quality and accessibility of early learning and care and school-age childcare. Two of the main objectives of Shaping the Future are to reduce parental fees to a maximum of \u20ac200 per month over the lifetime of this Government and to increase the supply of places. This would strengthen funding to support services\u2019 sustainability and staff wages, while also introducing State-led facilities to complement other measures to increase capacity. The action plan appoints a phased approach that enables action to be taken in 2026 while allowing adequate time for a broad public consultation and analysis on longer-term actions. The consultation process has been taking place throughout this year and will inform phase 2 of Shaping the Future. Phase 2 will be published this year and will set out actions to be undertaken from 2027 through to 2029.  We have an action plan, and the final part of the consultation for that plan took place today. It was a summit gathering, if you like, of parents, providers, educators and children.  We invited them to come to a town-hall type meeting to discuss their vision and their aspirations for the future. That is on the back of the previous consultations that have taken place throughout the year. More than 11,700 parents engaged in a public consultation. There was engagement with children, who, through art form, gave their thoughts and their views on the future of education. There was engagement with the providers. It has been a long-standing engagement for a year and that will inform the second and final phase of Shaping the Future.  A key pillar of Government policy has been to improve affordability and access for families through the national childcare scheme and the early childhood care and education, ECCE, programme. Through a series of enhancements, substantial reductions in out-of-pocket costs have been delivered for many families. Parents and guardians of 277,000 children throughout the country are benefiting from increased national childcare scheme subsidies in 2026. The scheme continues to support participation in employment, education and training while helping families manage the cost-of-living pressures that many households have experienced in recent years. That point about the importance of ensuring there are opportunities to support people who need or wish to go out to work has been made by all of the Senators here.  These improvements matter because early learning and childcare costs have a direct impact on family decisions. They influence, as we said, whether parents, in particular, as has been referenced, mothers, can return to or remain in work, whether they must reduce, maintain or increase working hours and whether they can pursue education and training opportunities. By reducing childcare costs, we are not only supporting families financially but also creating opportunities that strengthen participation in society and the economy, as Senator O'Loughlin referenced quite significantly.  Alongside the national childcare scheme, the ECCE programme continues to provide universal access to high-quality preschool education. This year, over 105,000 children will benefit from two years of the ECCE programme participation, giving them opportunities to develop key social, emotional and learning skills through a critical stage of their development. The programme is one of the most successful social investments made by the State, ensuring that all children, regardless of their background, have access to high-quality early learning experiences before beginning primary school.  While considerable progress has been made through these programmes, the Government recognises that affordability remains an important issue for many families. That is why we remain committed to continuing the work of reducing costs and supporting participation while maintaining the sustainability and quality of services.  Alongside universal supports, the Government is also committed to ensuring that children who face disadvantage receive the support necessary to access and benefit from early learning and childcare opportunities. The award-winning access and inclusion model, AIM, is supporting up to 9,000 children with a disability to access the ECCE programme. AIM has now expanded beyond the ECCE programme, where ECCE children are benefiting from AIM support outside the ECCE programme hours, both in term and out.  The equal start model represents another important development in this regard. At its core, equal start reflects a commitment to ensuring that the benefits of early learning and childcare are available to all children, irrespective of background or circumstance. Equal start seeks to address those challenges that may be faced by families through targeted support and intervention, helping services to respond more effectively to disadvantage and ensuring that children who stand to benefit most from participation are supported to do so. In doing so, the equal start model supports not only inclusion but also equality of opportunity. It reflects a belief that every child deserves the chance to thrive and that early intervention can play a transformative role in children's lives.  Central to the success of the Government's reform programme has been the introduction of core funding. Core funding represents one of the most significant changes ever made to the funding model for the sector. Through this scheme, the State is providing direct and sustained support to providers in a way that strengthens their sustainability, supports affordability for families through fee management measures, and supports quality services through better terms, conditions and professional development for staff. Core funding has grown by 86% since its introduction to over \u20ac482 million in its fifth year and latest data shows over 4,600 providers, or more than 91%, are now participating in this fifth year of the scheme. For many providers, core funding has brought greater certainty and stability, enabling them to continue delivering services while responding to increasing costs and growing demand. It has also strengthened the partnership between the State and providers in delivering public policy objectives. The importance of core funding extends beyond financial sustainability. It has established the platform upon which the interconnected reforms of affordability, quality and workforce development are delivered.  No discussion of the future of the sector would be complete without recognising the absolute importance of the workforce. The quality of children's experiences within early learning and childcare settings is fundamentally linked to the dedication, professionalism and expertise of the excellent staff who work with them in settings right across the country. Early years educators, managers, school-age childcare practitioners, providers and childminders make an extraordinary contribution to the lives, and to the development and well-being of our children. Historically, the contribution made by the workforce was not always adequately recognised. The Government has, therefore, placed a significant emphasis on workplace development and professionalisation. Through the nurturing skills workforce plan and a range of workforce supports, significant progress has been made in strengthening qualifications, professional development opportunities and career pathways across the sector.  Moreover, the independent joint labour committee is now proposing increases of over 6% to the minimum rates of all roles in the sector. This is building on substantial progress made in pay through three consecutive employment regulation orders, EROs, in the last four years negotiated by the committee - all supported by the Government's core funding scheme. In fact, \u20ac45 million was made available this year specifically for the ERO and a further \u20ac45 million the previous year, comprising \u20ac90 million specifically made available to boost supports for the workforce. If these new rates of pay as outlined are commenced, the minimum hourly rate of pay for an early years educator will have increased from \u20ac10.50 to \u20ac16, with similar increases across other roles in the sector, including lead educators, deputy managers and managers.  The workforce remains central to every ambition we hold for the future of early learning and childcare. If we are to improve quality, increase capacity and expand access, we must continue to attract and retain talented professionals within the sector. I am committed to ensuring that we do that and support it going forward.  The motion also references one of the most significant challenges facing the sector, namely, capacity. While many families are successfully accessing services, there remain areas where demand exceeds supply and where additional places are required. That has been referenced here by the House. Population growth, demographic change and housing development have increased demand in many communities, thereby creating pressures that require careful planning and sustained investment. As new communities are being developed and as new schools and public facilities are planned, it is important that early learning and childcare services are considered from the outset. Families benefit when services are planned in an integrated way and when early learning and childcare forms part of the essential infrastructure of growing communities. The Government is committed to working across Departments and agencies to ensure that capacity expansion remains a central element of future policy development.  An important part of that future capacity will be delivered through childminders. Childminders have always played a valuable role in supporting families and providing flexible forms of early learning and childcare in communities throughout Ireland. Recognising this important contribution, the Government has undertaken significant work to support the development of the childminding sector. The national action plan for childminding is helping to bring greater recognition and support to childminders while creating pathways for participation in regulatory and support structures.  Notwithstanding the progress that has been made in all of the areas outlined, it is important to acknowledge, as always, that challenges remain. Affordability remains a concern for many families despite the improvements delivered through the recent subsidy increases. Workforce recruitment and retention continue to present difficulties for many services and capacity constraints remain evident in some communities. The Government neither underestimates these challenges nor wishes to suggest that there are simple solutions to complex issues. However, it is equally important that we recognise the progress achieved and the strong foundations that have been established. We now have a level of investment that would have been considered impossible only a few years ago. We have a long-term strategic framework through Shaping the Future, First 5 and Nurturing Skills. We have strengthened supports for families through the ECCE programme and the national childcare scheme, targeted disadvantage and inclusion through AIM and equal start, enhanced sustainability and workforce development through core funding and established a clear pathway for further development of capacity and the regulation of childminding. The task before us now is to build upon these achievements.  I, therefore, welcome the motion before the House. It recognises the progress that has been achieved, acknowledges the challenges and opportunities that remain and sets out a constructive direction for future reform and I am pleased to support its objectives. I look forward to continuing to work with colleagues across Government and across this House to strengthen early learning and childcare for children and families throughout Ireland. I am absolutely committed to prioritising further investment through the 2027 Estimates for that purpose. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dee Ryan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dee-Ryan.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Dee-Ryan.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Dee Ryan)  Before we move to our next Seanad\u00f3ir, I welcome the guests of Senator Joanne Collins to the Chamber: Karen Ronan, CEO of Galway Chamber; C\u00e1it Noone, president of Galway Chamber; and Marilyn Gaughan Reddan of the board of the Chambers Ireland. They are very welcome to this important debate on childcare. I am sure they appreciate the promise the Minister was just making. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Noonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Malcolm Noonan  I am sharing time with Senator Nessa Cosgrove. I will let my colleague go first. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Nessa Cosgrove  Cuirim f\u00e1ilte roimh an Aire. I thank the Fianna F\u00e1il Senators for bringing the motion forward. I know how committed the Minister is to this area and to education in general. We have to welcome all of the positive developments we have seen in the early years sector but we must not exaggerate the positives at the expense of reality. On the ground, providers, educators and parents are still facing problems with accessibility, affordability and sustainability. As outlined in the motion and as everyone has brought up here today, early childhood provides an opportunity to shape and develop young minds and to support young families through the provision of excellent early years education. To achieve its potential, we need the early years and school-age care sector to be located in the communities in which children are living so that parents are not driving huge distances each day, adding to expensive commutes. That is what we are trying to address here. Care needs to be accessible.  While addressing the cost to parents is needed, the answer is not to just keep increasing NCS subsidies to parents. While I admit that this reduces fees, it is also puts more and more of the State's money into the pockets of chains owned by multinational multimillion and multibillion euro corporations. I have to raise this issue because, unfortunately, there is money to be made in childcare. Care needs to be affordable but the outsourcing of some of the State's responsibility to the private sector has delivered a sector that could be on the brink of collapse. I know that is not what the Minister intends with the work she is putting in. While small independent providers, both community and private, struggle to make ends meet, vast corporate chains are making vast profits.  The sector still struggles to attract educators and will continue to do so unless their qualifications and potential are recognised. While the recent employment regulation order agreement, which will see minimum rates of pay for graduate centre managers rise to \u20ac21.55, is to be welcomed, it is still a long away off the \u20ac29.38 per hour paid to newly qualified primary school teachers. Early Childhood Ireland has been calling for pay parity between national school teachers and graduate early years educators for over a year. It is time for the Government to put a date on pay parity for educators. It is the only way to attract graduates into a workforce that has historically suffered from exploitation.  Care needs to be sustainable. Without stabilising the workforce, sustainability and accessibility will continue to be problems for families as small community-based providers, both private and non-profit, are forced to close their doors. As a rural representative, I know this hits rural communities particularly hard. This is what I want to bring up. City and county childcare committees have played a crucial role in ensuring sustainability in the sector and are responsible for delivering Government policy. I have to ask the question: why are the CEOs of large corporate chains also sitting on the boards of certain childcare committees? That is not happening in my area. I want to make that very clear. However, they also sit on joint labour committee. Why should the CEOs of multimillion euro businesses owned by multimillion euro corporate funds be deciding the rates that low-paid early years educators are paid? We have to question this. I have to call it out. Who is delivering this Government policy and who is directing it? There is a clear conflict of interest at play in certain childcare committees in other parts of the country. The relevant authorities, including the Charities Regulator, need to examine this issue and the question of how long people can stay on boards. We need a trusted, functioning and State-delivered early years education sector. Like other branches of our education system, it should provide an excellent service that families can rely on. I know the Minister has looked into this but I urge her to look again. There is an influx of corporations within this sector. The governance of childcare committees should be looked at. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Noonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Malcolm Noonan  Cuirim f\u00e1ilte roimh an Aire. I thank the Fianna F\u00e1il Senators for using their Private Members' time to bring forward this important motion. The motion recognises the distance we have come since 2020 under the Minister's predecessor, my colleague Deputy Roderic O'Gorman who did incredible work. We want to see that same trajectory continue. I recognise the comments made by my colleague here. We have gone some distance towards affordability, professional development and retention of staff but, as the Minister knows, significant challenges remain, particularly in a country that is at full employment, where many graduates are pulled into different areas of employment.  While core funding was welcomed at the time, it did not work for all providers. I refer to some of the small providers in particular. It is important that be recognised. How the Minister moves forward with the next phase of the plan will be really important. We also recognise the importance of the foundations for education and lifelong learning for children and young people and for their well-being. This is the most vital sector. Pay parity is the critical issue that Early Childhood Ireland has raised with us as it seeks public sector pay and conditions in line with teachers. That would mark a significant turning point in retention. The graduate premium should be doubled to allow providers to retain qualified staff. There has not been an increase there. That is another important issue.  I will also raise with the Minister the issue of funding for AIM support. This is vital for all settings. It currently stands at \u20ac18 per hour, \u20ac15 of which goes on pay, leaving \u20ac3 to cover PAYE and holidays. It therefore unfortunately does not cover the full cost. That needs be addressed as a matter of urgency.  My wife, Jennie, works in the sector. I will give a shout-out to First Steps Montessori in Kilkenny and to Leanne and all of the staff there. Jennie loves her work. She loves working with the children. Every year, a new intake comes in and she comes home so excited to speak about the children who are coming into her care. She is then sad at the end of the year when they are finishing up. I have been on the boards of voluntary community-based providers of different types in Kilkenny over the past 20 years. I have seen the changes. I have seen the lows and I have seen the hope that has come into the sector in recent years. I hope the Minister can continue on this trajectory for the staff, the people who work in early childhood education, and also for the children, because it is the most vital start they will have in life. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alice-Mary Higgins  I thank the Fianna F\u00e1il Senators for bringing forward this topic. Like many others, we are navigating another start of term and all of the paperwork that goes with that. There is nothing more important than childcare, what it does and the foundation it provides for our children.  I want to highlight some of the choices we still have and the potential new models we could use. The Minister has said that the question is no longer whether the State should be playing a major role in supporting early learning and childcare but how it should do so. Within the motion, there are really concrete measures that look for that more active State involvement. One of the calls relates to co-location with our educational infrastructure, including our primary school infrastructure, and the building or purchasing of State-owned facilities. Publicly delivered and developed childcare where it is needed, particularly in areas of high-density and rural areas, is part of it. That is the kind of thing we mean when we talk about the role of the State in delivering the foundations for our children through early years education, which is also absolutely crucial social infrastructure.  While I am sure the Minister is well aware of them, I will highlight and draw the Minister's attention to some of the proposals put forward by SIPTU in its roadmap. I hosted a SIPTU event on its roadmap for early years affordability before the summer. As the Minister will be aware, it has put forward proposals that aim to address the fact that, even with the schemes we have, which are very welcome, there can be a little bit of a gap. Things can fall between the cracks. An administrative burden can also fall on families and facilities in managing these things. Like many of us, I have navigated this system myself, determining which hours fall under the ECCE scheme, which fall under the different other programmes, the number of hours for which the child is enrolled and at which times of the day. The State is effectively giving a massive subsidy to make childcare possible.  What SIPTU has put forward is the idea that it may take a different form. If we look at the actual breakdown of expenditure on provision of childcare, 69% is employee compensation. Rather than the plethora of schemes and subsidies that individual families have to navigate their access to and facilities, SIPTU put forward that we could look to the State taking on that part of the piece. SIPTU estimates that if the State was delivering and managing the employment payments in cr\u00e8ches, that would bring cr\u00e8che fees down to \u20ac255 per week. We would be within reach of the goal of \u20ac200 that we have all heard about, which is referenced in the motion. While that would be an increase in what the State is currently spending, it would not necessarily be an insurmountable increase. They point to this scheme as an idea of almost both simplifying and delivering affordability, with affordability as the first goal or benefit, but with the secondary benefit of supporting the other agenda the Minister spoke out in terms of professionalisation and supporting consistency of employment and opportunities for progress in the sector.  If the State were to be effectively the payroll manager, it would move to a point in terms of retention, which we know is a massive issue. Anybody knows about the turnover of staff that is happening in many cr\u00e8ches, which is so difficult and often kind of distressing because the relationships that are formed are so fundamental with caregivers. It is kind of a 1:2 or 1:3 relationship at that point. We need to have a situation where anybody working in the childcare sector knows that they are going to be paid properly by the State, that there will be progression opportunities, that they will be paid the same whether they are working in an area of disadvantage or working in an area of comparative advantage and that there will be an equality of payment and a core payment of some sort. I appreciate the important work of the EROs and the attempts to raise the bar and raise the standards, but this may be an opportunity to have the State lead on that. I am just putting that out there. It is SIPTU's roadmap. It is an interesting proposal. It is great that we have all come to certain collective views in relation to the importance of a role for the State, the importance of this being an area of public investment, the importance of this idea being a foundation and the idea of affordability and decent pay and conditions being crucial to the delivery of that. SIPTU's model is something that contributes to those shared goals and should be considered. I urge the Minister to take it on board. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  Senators Comyn and Ryan are sharing time. Is that agreed? Agreed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alison Comyn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alison Comyn  I thank the Minister for coming to address what is one of the most vital and urgent issues we have. I welcome the motion and support it wholeheartedly. As one of my colleagues said, childcare is not simply a service we provide to parents; it is what allows people to work. It allows people to build careers and gives children a strong start in life to flourish.  For generations of women in particular, it has often determined whether they could stay in the workplace. I know that because I was one of those women. When my two children were very small, I had to make a conscious decision to have two children because I knew if I had more, keeping the career I worked so hard to build would become almost impossible. The childcare bill I paid every month, like many others, was higher than my mortgage. I recall earning that salary and watching such a huge portion of it disappearing every month on childcare. Peter Pan Cr\u00e8che in Drogheda was worth every penny. The staff were amazing, but I also know what that childcare gave me. It gave me the ability to keep working and progressing. It gave me so many opportunities and the ability to have a career while being a mother. Ultimately, it helped me to get where I am today, standing in the Chamber with the privilege and honour of using my voice to fight for other families who are trying to do exactly the same thing.  When we talk about childcare policy, we should not ever forget that there is human story behind every single place. I am thinking of some of the mums I have spoken to in Louth and whether they are going back to work. They are wondering whether they can go back to work and whether it makes financial sense, while the dads are rearranging shifts because the cr\u00e8che cannot offer it the hours they need. There is also the lone parent who simply cannot afford to take a job in the first place without reliable childcare or even the parents who are currently working but whose children should have the opportunity to benefit from early learning, interaction and care. That is why childcare can only be seen as something that allows parents to go to work. It is part of the fabric of the infrastructure of a modern society.  Most importantly, it should be about choice. If a parent chooses to return to work, childcare should be available and affordable. If a parent is studying, retraining, or looking for work, or simply needs support, it should be available, if a family chooses not to use formal childcare, that should be their choice as well. Our job is not to tell families how to raise their children. Our job, ultimately, is to make sure that a lack of affordable childcare does not make that decision for them.  We have made huge progress, as we have heard. Investment has increased substantially. Parents' costs have fallen and we are investing directly and heavily in additional capacity. As everyone in this Chamber knows, however, the job is certainly not finished. We all hear about families throughout the country desperately searching for places. Parents are still looking at childcare costs and wondering how the sums can simply add up. There are still excellent early years educators whom we need to recruit, retain and properly value. Let us be honest: we know that they are not just babysitters; they are skilled professionals who are caring for our children during some of the most formative years of their lives.  The ambition in this motion is really clear. We must continue reducing costs and increasing quality places and move toward a maximum childcare cost of \u20ac200 a month per child during the lifetime of the Government. I do not want another generation of women sitting at kitchen tables calculating whether they can afford to go back to work or deciding how many children they can afford to have, depending on childcare. It simply might not add up. I do not want any other parent locked out of work or education opportunities because there are no childcare spaces available for them. I was fortunate in that I had childcare. It was painfully expensive, but it allowed me to continue the career that I love. We hear about families desperately searching for places. We have to make sure, for generations of women to come, and now, that there is affordable, quality and available childcare for all. I wholeheartedly support this motion. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dee Ryan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dee-Ryan.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Dee-Ryan.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Dee Ryan  I too would like to echo the comments of Senator Comyn and many of the comments made across the House during the debate. I wish to thank the Minister and the Minister of State, Deputy Higgins, for their time and all the work they are doing in this area. We have heard a comprehensive address this evening from the Minister of the ongoing investment into the sector and the significant and ongoing work in the Department. I wanted to acknowledge that work and to wish them well with the continued work.  I would like to report from Limerick that while parents are telling me that costs have fallen when I am on the doors every week, the challenge remains around capacity. While it is not the second mortgage that it may have been at the start of my childcare journey, it is a real and significant challenge to secure spaces. Many working mothers or parents who need that additional support in their homes are reporting that it has been multiple years that they may have to wait to secure a spot in Limerick and the mid-west area. I thank the Minister for her ongoing work in the area. I wish her well with this. I acknowledge the progress that has been made and the ambition within the Department. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanne Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joanne Collins  I cannot fault anything in the motion. It is good that we continue to speak about the issue. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gareth Scahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Gareth Scahill  I am shocked to hear that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanne Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joanne Collins  Yes, I know - shock, horror. It is not like me to stand up and not give out about something, but there is a twist near the end. We need to keep talking about childcare because there are still issues. We can keep working and working but there will always be. If it is not the affordable side, it will be the accessibility side. I can see it from all sides. I went through the childcare system with my own children. Fourteen years ago, I had to leave my job because I could no longer afford it. What I had to pay for my kids in childcare went above my salary. When I finally got to the point where they were old enough that the cost came down, I could not get a place.  There is always going to be an issue for a family out there anyway. Regardless of whether we can get the cost down to what we want it to be, some families still probably will not be able to afford it. There are always going to be issues. However, the issue that is most pressing is definitely the accessibility issue at the moment. I think it comes down to the recruiting and retention of childcare workers. You have a level 8 childcare worker who does four years in college and then they see primary school teachers who are getting way above their salary. I think a primary school teacher probably comes out with about \u20ac40 an hour for the hours they work and early years educators on a level 8 come out with \u20ac17.50 or \u20ac18. There is a huge disparity. We can see why childcare workers after their level 8 are going to go for another year, do their Hibernia year and go into primary school teaching.  We are losing childcare workers hand over fist. I am also the chairperson of a community-run cr\u00e8che and the childcare workers in that cr\u00e8che are paid over the minimum wage. They have their pensions. They have health insurance. They get their bonuses for not ringing in sick. They have all these little things. They get Christmas nights out. They get their end-of-summer party. That is all to keep the morale up. That is what is needed.  For too long they have been treated like babysitters when they are not babysitters. They do such amazing work. We could not be here without them. People could not go to work without them, and we know the kids are being taken care of because they are so well qualified at what they do. It is not like 20 years ago when there were no qualifications and you put your child into what was called \"playschool\", and they were being minded by somebody down the road. There are qualifications at play here. They do an awful lot of work, and they are forever upskilling. We need to look at their pay and pay scale for morale and retention. Primary school education is competing against early years educators and I do not think there is proper parity when it comes to it. Primary school teachers are getting their summer off, Christmas off and they are getting mid-term breaks while early years educators are on half the wage and do not get any of that. We do need to make it more competitive or more palatable for them to go into that. They go into it for the love of it. They do not go in because it is easy. When you see them doing four years at college there is a love behind it.  The only other critique I have is the national childcare scheme, NCS, hours. The way the NCS hours are done is penalising parents if they collect their children early because the childcare facility has to log their hours and if someone collects their child early, they do not get those NCS hours. The childcare facility is not going to take that hit. It is put on the parents. There are parents sitting outside cr\u00e8ches for an hour because they cannot go in yet because they are going to get charged if they go in and collect their child.  A parent hanging around for an hour outside could be collecting the child early. That childcare facility could close an hour earlier if the kids go home an hour earlier and give the staff an extra hour off. There is a ripple effect to it. That definitely needs to be looked at. I do not think anybody, whether it is the facility or the parent, should be penalised for a child going home early. A child going home early is a really good thing. They get to spend more time with their parents. They get more time outside at home, playing XBOX or whatever it is they want to do. They are not being left there. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cathal Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Cathal-Byrne.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Cathal Byrne  It is good to see the Minister of State in Seanad \u00c9ireann again. I want to commend our Fianna F\u00e1il colleagues on putting a very important motion before us this evening. It is important to recognise that while there are obviously policy differences between different parties and different Members of the Seanad, there is no doubt in my mind that childcare, looking after and supporting young children, and making sure they are looked after is an issue that is above party politics. Really it is about ensuring that those children, who have to be at the heart of the conversation, have access in their local area to a childcare facility or childminder and that the families those children are part of are able to get out and get back into the workforce. It is really important that when we have these conversations, we keep that to the very forefront.  I am going to make a number of brief points because quite a lot of this issue has already been well covered. Specifically, it is important to recognise the contribution that childminders make right across the country. Perhaps it is more of a rural thing than urban thing. It is important that in the upcoming budget, we see additional supports to support childminders themselves. Quite a lot of the conversation tends to revolve around large cr\u00e8che facilities, but there is a large cohort of people who look after children in their own homes. It is important that we support them to do that while not over-regulating them to the point that they decide it is not worth getting into it the following year.  My second point is around the whole area of the ECCE scheme and how the ECCE scheme is being rolled out. It is quite a good model, but it could probably be extended. There are quite a lot of children who are in the ECCE scheme for the two years but really are in a cr\u00e8che early. In my area of Wexford, one of the biggest challenges people come to me with is access to a cr\u00e8che for very young children. If their mother wants to go back to work after six months or a year, can they actually find a childcare space? There would be one when that child turns two or two and a half, but there is not one when they are six months old or up to two years old. Perhaps there is an opportunity in the ECCE scheme to try to address that if we want to support mothers in particular to get back to work. It is important to acknowledge it is mothers in this entire conversation. It tends to be the mother who takes time off work to look after the children. That is the lived reality of so many women up and down the country. If we want to support them, maybe the ECCE scheme is a good working model to do that.  The third and final point I want to make about this is that I have been a believer for quite a long time in the importance of a State-led model. We have had State-provided primary education for quite a long time and State-provided secondary education. I think we are ultimately going to have to make a giant leap forward beyond even what is envisaged in the programme for Government towards a State-provided model of childcare. Ultimately, that is where this entire thing is going. While there will always be a role for private providers, community providers and childminders, I think the State needs to take greater involvement in the sector as a whole. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Margaret Murphy O'Mahony","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Margaret-Murphy-O'Mahony.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Margaret Murphy O'Mahony  I thank the Minister of State for coming in this evening. I acknowledge the great work done by her and the Minister, Deputy Foley. I am a great believer in parental choice. I believe that if parents want to go out to work, they should be able to. If one of them wants to stay at home, they should be in a position to do that. If one of them wants to go onto further education, they should be in a position to do that. It is a sad state of affairs if childcare is preventing them from making a choice that suits them. I would like to thank everyone for their contributions here this evening. Everyone made very valid points and, going forward, there is a lot done, a lot more to do, to coin our own phrase.  Childcare is so important. These children are our future so it is important that in their formative years they are well looked after and they gain confidence and a zest for life and are given every opportunity. I ask the Minister of State to make sure that in the upcoming budget there will be big changes in our childcare system. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  When is it proposed to sit again? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gareth Scahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Gareth-Scahill.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Gareth Scahill  At 9.30 a.m. tomorrow morning. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  Is that agreed? Agreed. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an Seanad ar athl\u00f3 ar 6.59 p.m. go dt\u00ed 9.30 a.m., D\u00e9ardaoin, an 24 Me\u00e1n F\u00f3mhair 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The Seanad adjourned at 6.59 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 24 September 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Childcare: Motion"}]}}]},"contextDate":"2026-09-23"},{"debateRecord":{"house":{"showAs":"27th Seanad","committeeCode":"","houseCode":"seanad","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/house\/seanad\/27","chamberType":"house","houseNo":"27"},"chamber":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/def\/house\/seanad","showAs":"Seanad \u00c9ireann"},"lastUpdated":"2026-09-24T02:08:10+00:00","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-22\/debate\/main","formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-22\/debate\/mul@\/main.xml"},"pdf":null},"date":"2026-09-22","counts":{"contributorCount":38,"divisionCount":0,"debateSectionCount":13,"questionCount":0,"billCount":1},"debateType":"debate","debateSections":[{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_2","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Gn\u00f3 an tSeanaid - Business of Seanad","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I welcome students and guests of Senator Joe Conway from Italia to the Visitors Gallery. I believe the Senator is downstairs with more students from Italy. I think the best thing to say is \" Ciao \". After that, my Italian gets very poor. I thank them for being here in Seanad \u00c9ireann.  I welcome the Minister, Deputy Calleary, to the House for the Commencement matters, which are submitted by Members of the Seanad on the day previous to sitting. Four of the Commencement matters are selected by the Cathaoirleach for Ministers to come to the House to answer. The first is by Senator Robbie Gallagher. Each of the Commencement matters are a four-minute statement and question by the Senator, followed by a response by the Minister and then a follow-up question by the Senator.  I have received notice from the following Senators that they propose to raise the following matters:  Senator Robbie Gallagher - the need for the Minister for Rural and Community Development and the Gaeltacht to make a statement on the future funding arrangements for women's and men's sheds.  Senator Aubrey McCarthy - the need for the Minister for Justice, Home Affairs and Migration to make a statement on the levels of refusals of long-stay student visas for Palestinian nationals in 2026 compared with 2025.  Senator Fiona O'Loughlin - the need for the Minister for Transport to provide an update on a dedicated town bus for Newbridge, County Kildare.  Senator Maria Byrne - the need for the Minister for Health to make a statement on the measures being taken to provide sustainable funding for oral health promotion and prevention services.  Senator Nessa Cosgrove - the need for the Minister of Health to make a statement on the introduction of a mandatory, nationwide and standardised breast density reporting to all women with mammogram results until the HIQA health technology assessment process has concluded.  Senator Mike Kennelly - the need for the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage to provide a national planning statement on solar energy development.  Senator Linda Nelson Murray - the need for the Minister for Education and Youth to make a statement on the roll-out of the holiday meals pilot programme during Christmas and Easter holidays.  Senator Eileen Lynch - the need for the Minister for Children, Disability and Equality to make a statement on the age eligibility conditions of the early childhood care and education scheme.  The matters raised by the Senators are suitable for discussion. I have selected Senators Gallagher, McCarthy, O'Loughlin and Byrne and they will be taken now. The other Senators may give notice on another day of the matters they wish to raise. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Gn\u00f3 an tSeanaid - Business of Seanad"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_3","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I welcome the Minister, Deputy Calleary, to Seanad \u00c9ireann. I officially congratulate, on the record, County Mayo on winning the all-Ireland football title. It is a bit delayed but the county is celebrating since the victory. We are a humble people in County Kerry and we are willing to wait another year for our 40th title. I congratulate County Mayo on its title after only 75 years. I thank the Minister for being here today. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_4","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Men's Sheds","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_4","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robbie Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robbie Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Robbie Gallagher  Cuirim f\u00e1ilte mh\u00f3r roimh an Aire go dt\u00ed an Teach. Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis as a bheith anseo.  The Minister is very welcome to the House. The topic of men's sheds is one he and I have discussed previously. We are all aware of the truly wonderful organisations they are. The sheds are a place where men can come together in a safe, comfortable environment where they can meet new friends, perhaps reconnect with old friends, learn a new skill or simply put the kettle on and have a cup of tea. It is a wonderful organisation. In my own neck of the woods of Cavan-Monaghan, we have ten sheds in County Cavan and four in County Monaghan. I understand there may be more springing up in both counties shortly.  From a funding perspective, in the overall Government spending pool the amount of funding allocated to men\u2019s sheds is relatively modest but nevertheless, hugely significant to the sheds, which have very limited financial resources to keep going. The funding they get from the Minister's Department each year is hugely significant in that it helps them to keep the lights on, pay for rent if that is an issue or to pay for light or heat or whatever the situation may be. I have been contacted by many sheds in my neck of the woods because some concern or a degree of confusion has arisen in relation to funding for 2026. They are fearful that funding will not be forthcoming and that could potentially result in them having to close shop altogether. That is something that is causing an awful lot of annoyance and concern.  The people who run these sheds are all volunteers and do their best to keep the show on the road. It is hugely important that the Minister has said that the confusion that has arisen in relation to the funding is not factual as the funding is ring-fenced. However, there is some confusion to which I hope the Minister will bring some clarity. He has met the Irish Men\u2019s Sheds Association and another meeting is scheduled for this evening where perhaps we can put the confusion to bed. I would be grateful if the Minister could share that information with me and give reassurance and confidence to the men's sheds both in Cavan and Monaghan and the length and breadth of the country that there is no issue with funding for men's sheds going forward and all his Department is trying to do is streamline and simplify the process whereby men's sheds get funding, which is in everybody's interest.  I wish the Minister well in that regard. We are looking for an assurance that there is basically nothing to see here. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Rural and Community Development and the Gaeltacht (Deputy Dara Calleary)  I thank the Cathaoirleach, Senator Daly, for his good wishes and place on the record of the Oireachtas my congratulations and thanks to the Mayo team for the lift they have given us all this year. For a Kerryman to do that is particularly special but even more special is to see Senator Goldsboro back looking hale and hearty. It is so good to have her back and it was great to see her coming in there.  I thank Senator Gallagher for raising the important issue regarding men's sheds and I will include women's sheds in my response. There is no threat to the ongoing funds to local sheds from the Department. We are supportive. The Minister of State, Deputy Buttimer, and I, and our Department officials are working closely with men's and women's sheds. In fact, we are meeting the Irish Men's Shed Association, IMSA, this evening, which is a long-standing commitment. I am conscious of the role they play. The Senator touched on it and I know it in my locality. I have also engaged with a lot of sheds across the country.  Under the programme for Government, there is a commitment to continue to fund men's and women's sheds and to that end, in addition to the core funding provided by the Department to men's sheds through the IMSA, it is important to note that we provide a range of other supports to individual men's and women's sheds through the local enhancement programme, the social inclusion and community activation programme, SICAP, and LEADER.  Since 2018, under the local enhancement programme and its various supports, men's and women's sheds have been allocated over \u20ac2.7 million to assist with capital works, building upgrades and the purchase of equipment. We also provide funding directly to the IMSA under the scheme to support national organisations, SSNO. The current iteration of SSNO started a few weeks ago on 1 July last with funding of \u20ac297,766 made available to the IMSA over the next three years and six months. In addition, the funding that Senator Gallagher referred to has provided over \u20ac2.3 million in current funding directly to the IMSA for onward distribution to individual men's sheds. That figure includes about \u20ac700,000 which was paid out earlier this year between January and the end of April.  The IMSA and the Women's Sheds of Ireland have submitted funding proposals to the Department and we are currently reviewing them. However, the Senator spoke about the concerns of volunteers and about the extraordinary work of volunteers in men's sheds across the country. Some of my engagement with them has pointed to the frustration at the form filling and the level of bureaucracy that comes with the funding, as well as the delay in getting that funding directly to men's sheds. We are engaging with the IMSA as to how we can reduce the delay but also how we can control the funding, which is taxpayers' money, while also reducing the bureaucracy and the burden on volunteers. We received a new proposal from the IMSA late last night and the Minister of State, Deputy Buttimer, and I, will be working through those proposals.  In terms of 2027, as the Senator knows, all funding programmes are subject to the annual budgetary Estimates. They are costed to provide ongoing funding to these groups as part of the negotiation, and I will be in a position to give clarity on this after 6 October. However, I can assure the Senator of my commitment and that of the Minister of State, Deputy Buttimer. I also want to put on the record my thanks to the officials in the Department who have worked exceptionally hard on this scheme over the last number of years through challenging times to get funding to sheds and to local sheds in particular. That commitment is real. That commitment from the Minister of State, Deputy Buttimer, and I is real and I look forward to my meeting with the IMSA this evening and to building a relationship with the new women's sheds association. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robbie Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Robbie Gallagher  I thank the Minister for that comprehensive and clear response to my question. It is reassuring to know the Minister is a huge fan of men's and women's sheds and I know this from past experience. It is great to see so many of them springing up throughout the length and breadth of the country.  I welcome the fact that proposals have come forward from the Irish Men's Sheds Association, which the Minister is looking at, and he is due to meet them again this evening.  His comments will bring reassurance and clarity to the men's sheds in Cavan and Monaghan that I have been in contact with. I am hopeful we can see a more streamlined process going forward where the funding can get directly to the sheds involved. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  I thank Senator Gallagher and the Senators who have approached me. My priority and that of the Minister of State, Deputy Buttimer, is to ensure the allocation and the application process is streamlined for local sheds, that the funding is targeted and is distributed effectively and efficiently. We really want to reduce the stress on volunteers but at the same time this is taxpayers' money that has to be managed and controlled. I look forward to working through the IMSA proposals and bringing absolute clarity to this situation as soon as we can. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Chris Andrews)  I thank the Minister. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Men's Sheds"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_5","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Student Visas","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_5","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aubrey McCarthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Chris Andrews)  While we are waiting for the Minister, I will take this opportunity to give a warm welcome back to Senator Goldsboro. It is great to have her back and I hope she gets plenty of work done over the next few months. It is good to see her back. She is looking very well. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aubrey McCarthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Aubrey McCarthy  This morning I went to the dentist as I had to get a filling. He gave me an injection. It did not work therefore he gave me three injections so I am half paralysed on my face. He assured me that even an anaesthetic will not shut up a Senator so I will give it my best shot. I thank the Cathaoirleach for selecting this important matter. I also welcome the Minister of State to the House. The Palestinian ambassador, Dr. Jilan Wahba Abdalmajid, intended to be present but something came up. However, in the Distinguished Visitors Gallery, we have Dr. Emma Stokes, who has certainly worked hard on the Palestinian student visa issue, and my colleague, Cillian Walsh, who also is passionate about this issue.  As a university Senator, I am seeking clarity from the Minister for justice on the significant increase in refusals of long-stay student visas for Palestinian nationals, particularly those from Gaza, during 2026. At present, 58 students from Gaza, who have secured their places in higher education institutions and have full practical and financial supports in place, have been refused visas. Of those, 28 hold full university scholarships while others have equivalent support through donors, family sponsorships, fee waivers and other arrangements. It is particularly concerning that 12 recipients of the Government of Ireland scholarships and Ireland-Palestine scholarship programme have been granted visas, while many others with similar or even stronger supports have been refused. These students are attempting to leave a war-torn area to pursue education in safety and their circumstances cannot be compared with those of other international students applying from stable jurisdictions. Yet, they appear to be assessed through the same process. Irish universities and colleges have worked to meet their obligations under our international commitments regarding displaced students and the recognition of the qualifications, however, many of the students are now facing appeals and that can take up to a year. Effectively, that denies them the opportunity of studying in the present academic year.  I have three questions to put to the Minister of State. First, what explains the very significant increase in refusals of Palestinian student visas between 2025 and 2026? In 2025 there were 25 refusals and in 2026 there have been 115 refusals. Second, will the Minister of State examine whether applications from Gaza require a more appropriate approach to documentation and evidence that recognises the extraordinary circumstances in which the students who have got their scholarships are living presently? Third, and perhaps most urgently, will the Minister of State examine a way of expediting the process for appeals so that the fully funded students, whose courses have already commenced or are about to commence, can know the result of their appeals? These are young people who have their whole lives ahead of them and they have earned their university places. They have scholarships and accommodation and they have financial support.  I know from talking to the various institutions \u2013 Dr. Emma Stokes has worked with Trinity College for years \u2013 that the institutions are waiting to welcome them. We can do so much more in this regard. I thank the Minister of State. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration (Deputy Colm Brophy)  I thank the Senator for raising this important matter. His dentist obviously did a very good job because he was well able to communicate.  I am very much aware of the grave humanitarian crisis in Gaza. My Department continues to work closely with our colleagues in the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade to ensure we have a co-ordinated national response to this situation. The Irish Government has been at the absolute forefront, particularly among European governments, in supporting Gaza. The genocide that is taking place in Gaza is appalling and I condemn it in the absolute strongest possible terms. Ireland has been very steadfast in its commitment to the people of Palestine, and that support will continue.  Palestinian nationals are required to have a visa and must have a valid Irish visa before they seek to enter Ireland. It is important to note that visa applications are part of a screening process. I know the Senator is aware of that. The process is designed to establish that a person has a legitimate reason to come to Ireland prior to travel. All such applications undergo this process. There are no special arrangements for Palestinian students, or indeed students in any other conflict zone. There are other conflict zones that somehow do not ever seem to attract the same attention. No change has been made to the criteria that are being applied to the applications. That is the most important thing to put on record here.  Palestinian student visa applications are assessed against the same immigration requirements that we apply to all visa-required nationals seeking to enter Ireland. Each application is considered on its own merits, having regard to all the information, the documentation submitted, the circumstances of the applicant, the purpose of the proposed travel, previous immigration history where relevant and the requirements of Ireland's immigration policy and legislation. It is important to put on record that each application is examined on an individual basis.  The Senator referred to the increase in refusals compared with 2025. The refusal rates reflect the individual circumstances of the applications received rather than any change that we made to the criteria. Applications from Palestinian nationals are examined at first instance by the Embassy of Ireland in Tel Aviv, which processes certain visa applications under delegated sanction on behalf of my Department. Officials in my Department's visa division are in regular contact with the embassy regarding visa applications for residents of Gaza, the West Bank and Lebanon. Both Departments work together to ensure that visa applications from Palestinian nationals who meet the relevant criteria are, wherever possible, processed as swiftly as possible.  Between 1 January 2026 and 15 September 2026, 50 study visa applications from Palestinian nationals were granted. A total of 115 were refused. I cannot comment on individual cases. The reasons for refusal are set out in detail for each applicant. I point out, on behalf of the very dedicated and hard-working staff who do this, that the reasons are not flimsy. Applications are individually assessed and reasons are supplied. However, I believe we need to be sure we have absolute clarity when dealing with vulnerable people in relation to the granting of an academic scholarship to make sure that the understanding exists that the granting of such a scholarship does not mean an automatic right to come to Ireland. That has never been the case.  I remind institutions and their staff who are dealing with vulnerable people in Palestine or, if they choose to, in Sudan, South Sudan or any other conflict zone that we have a duty of care to vulnerable people to explain fully to them how the visa process works. In practice, what is being proposed is that we actually waive visa criteria for individuals who have been selected by third level institutions on criteria that they have set without consultation with the State. The principal factors arising in refused cases have related to applicants' ability to meet established immigration requirements, including documentation and financial requirements, English-language requirements and the conditions attached to a study permission.  It is open to any applicant to appeal the process. Visa appeals are processed by my Department in accordance with established procedures and are considered by visa appeals officers following a full examination of the information. A number of appeals have now been received in respect of recently refused Palestinian student visas. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aubrey McCarthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Aubrey McCarthy  I thank the Minister of State. I hear what he is saying about there being other war-torn areas, but today I specifically want to deal with the 58 visa refusals for people from Gaza. Yesterday, The Irish Times told the story of 19-year-old Hazem Faris from Gaza. He secured a full scholarship to study computer science in SETU in Waterford. His fees, accommodation and living expenses were covered. He came from Gaza where his home was destroyed. He had been displaced several times. He had lost all his friends and neighbours, yet his visa was refused. Basically, it was refused because there was insufficient documentation. There were gaps in his education, employment history and insufficient evidence of obligations to return to his home country. My fear is that this is a young guy whose home country has been demolished. He has not got the paperwork or the evidence and is therefore judged on that.  The Minister of State mentioned how all cases are treated the same and a scholarship cannot guarantee a visa. However, the Lisbon Recognition Convention, to which Ireland is a party, allows HEIs and other arms to take a different approach. When the Department is looking at a visa application from the likes of Hazem Faris, how does a 19-year-old living through the most awful circumstances provide all of the documentation needed? How does somebody explain their present circumstances when they are coming from the likes of Gaza? I agree that Sudan and other areas are similar, but it is something we have to address. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Colm Brophy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Colm-Brophy.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Colm Brophy  Unfortunately, I have to begin by saying what the Senator has heard me say quite a few times. I cannot directly address an individual case. It is unfair to a person who is an applicant. It is unfair to ever engage in that type of scenario. We have to have a rules-based system. I know that can sometimes cause people to ask why and why we are doing that, but there has to be an understanding that there is fairness, clarity and a process in place. It is so that if people can go through that process to qualify that they get it and it is not a response to protest, loud voices or the media, but they are getting their visa having followed a due process.  That said, I want to put on record that I would love to see a better system in place when it comes to dealing with this. I would love to see co-ordination between the sectors, and between my Department and the Department of foreign affairs, to look at how we can build out an approach to dealing with this so this type of event does not happen next year or the year after, whether it involves Gaza or any other part of the world. It behoves us all to try to work towards generating that type of solution. We have a rules-based system but I would certainly like to see us working with others to develop a system that helps us deal with this, so we are not back here again in 12 months' time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Chris Andrews)  I thank Senator McCarthy. That is a really important issue. He mentioned that Irish universities are looking forward to welcoming students. The Irish public is also looking forward to welcoming students from Gaza. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Student Visas"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_6","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Bus Services","counts":{"speechCount":11,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_6","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fiona O'Loughlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fiona O'Loughlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Fiona O'Loughlin  I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Buttimer, for being here. I know he is very committed to rural transport and making sure we have connectivity, which is so important. It does not matter what age somebody is; there is a need for connectivity. The town buses are a wonderful example of that. We have had successful pilot schemes in places like Drogheda, Mullingar, Carlow and Portlaoise. Newbridge, the town I am making the case for, is now one of the largest towns. It is growing and developing rapidly. We have quite good inter-city connections and into Dublin with buses and the railway station.  However, there is a serious lack of connectivity within the town itself. Because of the nature of Newbridge, someone can live in the town but be three miles from the railway station, for example. Anybody living on the bigger estates such as Curragh Grange, Liffey Hall and Belin Woods who wants to commute to Dublin would need to have a second car to go to the train station. Parking spaces in the train station are getting congested. The small travel distances of just a few miles are congesting our roads and streets. It makes absolute sense to have a commuter bus to link the train station, our places of education and work and our shopping and health facilities. I was at the five-year celebration of KDP Ireland in Newbridge last week. One of the directors had driven down from Dublin. He made the point to me that he wanted to come by public transport, being a believer in public transport. He could easily have gotten to the train station but then he would have had a gap of four miles. He would have had to get a taxi, so he drove. In a town bus, I am not just looking for a convenience. It would be a strategic investment in mobility, the economic vitality of the town and safety and social inclusion. There is a strong case for the need for this, which I have outlined. There is a strong case for the benefit. I have spoken to people who keep a second car because they need to be able to access the railway station. There is clear evidence and feasibility there. Thousands of people access the commuter train from Newbridge every day. We want to do everything we can to reduce car dependency. A town bus would support local businesses, cut emissions and improve access to services. I am thinking of people who cannot drive and those who are older or who have a disability. People need to have the second car to access the main transport networks. Not having to get a second car for that speaks for itself. I will hand over to the Minister of State. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Transport (Deputy Jerry Buttimer)  I thank the Senator for her ongoing advocacy on behalf of the people of Newbridge. She makes a very strong case for the town bus and is 100% correct on reducing car dependency. Like her, I am very passionate about accessibility of services and enhanced connectivity, in this case for people of Newbridge to the town. She makes a very good case in respect of the hinterland, which must also be listened to as part of this debate.  The Minister for Transport has overall responsibility for the policy piece, but funding and delivery are matters for the NTA. The Senator is right and I will work with her on this. Connectivity is so important and rural transport has been a success. The town bus and commuter bus in Newbridge is, I hope, the next piece of that jigsaw. Working with the NTA and the operators, I hope we will see the delivery of the services. The NTA has that responsibility. I assure the Senator that the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, the Minister of State, Deputy Canney and the whole of Government are committed to providing all of our citizens with reliable, realistic, sustainable mobility options. Public transport plays a key role in the delivery of that goal. In our budget for this year, we have seen significant funding of \u20ac940 million for the public service obligation, PSO, and Transport for Ireland Local Link services, which has been an increase on the \u20ac658 million provided in 2025. More importantly, we are engaging with the NTA on the existing levels of service, in respect of resilience and an issue with driver shortage, which must be addressed to ensure that we can plan for strategic decisions around new routes. The informed debate and decisions will be about that engagement with the NTA.  While we have seen a significant increase in funding to \u20ac31 million in 2026, which is a 38% increase, there are gaps.  There are 11 town bus services in Ireland. They are in Kilkenny, Drogheda, Navan, Athlone, Clonmel, Carlow, Portlaoise, Sligo, Balbriggan, Dundalk and Mullingar, and Ennis is planned to start operating next month. Would it not be great to have that in Newbridge? We will look with the NTA at a potential Newbridge town bus service as part of our town bus programme. The NTA is planning new town bus services in both Newbridge and Naas. Public consultation will commence in October and the NTA will provide an online briefing for representatives before that public consultation. I thank the Senator for her advocacy, work and support on that. Representatives of the NTA service planning team will be in Newbridge and Naas for an in-person information public service during that consultation period. There will be an elected public representatives-only slot on the day of one of the public information sessions. This will give those representatives an opportunity to meet the team on more of a one-to-one basis.  The connecting rural Ireland mobility plan is about investment in new and improved public transport services for rural areas, including County Kildare. Under the programme, almost 600,000 people have access to useful daily public transport services for the first time, with 188 new and improved rural regular services provided, resulting in a huge - I think it is fivefold - increase in passenger numbers on rural services. The services provide new transport connections to 41 higher education facilities and 61 healthcare facilities, as well as offering 71 connections to rail services, allowing passengers to connect to the wider TFI network and negating the point the Senator made about the need to buy a second car. The Senator's work and advocacy allow us to make decisions on future programmes and to prioritise the delivery of existing programmes in areas like Newbridge. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fiona O'Loughlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Fiona O'Loughlin  I thank the Minister of State and I appreciate his supportive words. I am pleased to hear him say that the NTA is planning new town bus services in Newbridge and in Naas, which is another growing town, and that public consultation will begin in October. It is important that the NTA does a briefing for all public representatives. We all get a lot of responses in relation to this. I look forward to that piece and to the implementation.  Once we have that, I will be looking for a service for Kildare town, which is another growing town. It has nearly a bigger problem because of the car parking spaces at the railway station. If you get there after 7 a.m., you have no parking space. They did some works and actually took away car parking space. There is a huge problem there. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  I reassure the Senator and the House that I am fully committed to delivering a more sustainable, inclusive and accessible transport system for current and future generations. The Senator is right that it is about getting away from the car and enhanced connectivity.  The NTA is planning for further phases of the town bus programme, which include Newbridge and Naas, with public consultation taking place in October. I am committed to the expansion of the public transport network and to increasing the service throughout the country, including County Kildare. Congratulations on having the ploughing next year in Rathangan. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fiona O'Loughlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Fiona O'Loughlin  Woo-hoo. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  The Senator mentioned Kildare town as well. The funding for the new and enhanced services in 2027 will be considered as part of the annual Estimates process.  My good friends, Deputy Michael Murphy in the Public Gallery and Senator Maria Byrne, are here. I would not wish the Deputy to be in the Seanad, even though it is a great place to be.  It is important that we get rural transport and connectivity right in the budget.  The Senator has been a strong champion of County Kildare. I have an affinity having spent five years studying in the county. The Senator is right that Kildare, with Cork, is one of the fastest-growing places in the country. The population base is there. That connectivity piece is there. Deputy Murphy and Senator Byrne will argue for Tipperary and Limerick and Senator Andrews will argue for Dublin but the map will show Kildare and Cork are fast growing.  I want to support the Senator on this. I hope that the Ministers, Deputies O'Brien and Chambers, and the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, will do so as well. I thank the Senator for what she has said this morning. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Chris Andrews)  I will let the Minister of State off, seeing as it is early in the day. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  Excuse me. I did take advantage of the clock. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fiona O'Loughlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Fiona O'Loughlin  I am always tripping up with it as well. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jerry Buttimer","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Jerry-Buttimer.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jerry Buttimer  I was beating the offside trap. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Chris Andrews)  Like a good Cork footballer.  I welcome Deputy Murphy and his guests to the Visitors Gallery. I hope they enjoy their visit. Usually, when visitors are very young, we let them off homework. Do not judge me for making this statement but I suspect they do not have homework, but I am sure he will buy them lunch in the bar or somewhere. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Bus Services"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_7","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Dental Services","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_3","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","showAs":"Nithe i dtosach su\u00edonna - Commencement Matters"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_7","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Maria Byrne  I thank the Minister of State for coming in to answer my question today, which is to do with the funding of oral and dental health. I want to raise the issue of the future of oral health promotion and prevention in Ireland and specifically the work done by Dental Health Foundation Ireland, which is a registered charity. A lot of that work is done on behalf of the Government, where the organisation goes into schools to promote oral health and to teach children the importance of brushing their teeth properly. For almost five decades, the foundation has worked alongside the Government on this. We do a lot of talking in this House about early intervention and keeping people healthier. That is where I am coming from in raising this. I believe that oral health should be treated the same as any other type of health. I sit on the health committee and I note that prevention and early intervention come up as common themes at all our committee meetings. The foundation has been doing a lot of work and the Government's national oral health policy, Smile agus Sl\u00e1inte, recognises oral health as an integral part of overall health and well-being and rightly places an emphasis on prevention. Dental Health Foundation Ireland is already doing the work that supports these objectives.  My request to the Minister of State is about the core funding solution for Dental Health Foundation Ireland because I understand it is running out of funding. If it does not receive funding it will have to wind down the work it is doing. It has funding until around November. My concern is that while the foundation is doing great work with children in schools and working with dentists, and is doing great work in promoting the best type of oral health, core funding needs to be distinguished from once-off funding for projects. I ask the Minister of State and the Department to work with the HSE to urgently examine how core funding can be secured for the Dental Health Foundation to continue to do that great work. Recently at the health committee we heard that because of a shortage of dentists they do not get to the school in time and some children go through school without seeing the public dentist unless they go to a private dentist.  I see that intervention piece as being crucial in the interim. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science (Deputy Marian Harkin)  I thank the Senator for the opportunity to address this important issue on oral health promotion and prevention services. I am taking the matter on behalf of the Minister for Health, Deputy Jennifer Carroll MacNeill. The Minister acknowledges the importance of health promotion and disease prevention, and the need for our services to reflect this. The Dental Health Foundation, which the Senator spoke about, is an independent registered charity with a key aim: to support improvement in oral health in Ireland through advocacy and oral health promotion.  The Minister would like to acknowledge the important work that the foundation carried out in its function as the secretariat to the Irish expert body on fluorides and health from 2004 to 2023. The expert body was put in place as an independent group to advise the Minister for Health on issues relating to community water fluoridation in order to discharge the Minister's obligations under the Health Act 1960 to monitor the general health of the population who are receiving fluoridated water. Since 2023, the fluoridation surveillance working group has acquired this function in line with best practice for public health surveillance.  The national oral health policy, Smile agus Sl\u00e1inte, which the Senator mentioned, aims to radically reform oral healthcare services, recognising the need for an entirely new approach to oral healthcare to meet the needs of the population into the future. The policy is in line with the 2024 WHO global strategy and action plan on oral health, which has a focus on oral health promotion and prevention.  While reform is progressed through the national oral health policy, the Minister is determined to ease the pressure that people are facing in accessing oral healthcare. In practical terms, this means improving access to the public oral healthcare system, especially for children and medical card holders. Officials in the Department of Health and the HSE are finalising a focused two-year action plan to deliver real improvements on the ground. It will aim to respond to sustained service pressures, workforce constraints and long waiting lists, particularly for children and people with additional needs. It will focus on a small number of clear priorities, including reducing waiting lists in the school dental programme, orthodontics and expanding the access programme for people with additional needs and disabilities. Over the next two years, the aim is to stabilise services, reduce waiting times and make access measurably better for patients while laying the groundwork for longer-term reform.  The HSE has responsibility for operationalising oral health promotion and prevention services and is funded by the Department to do so. Included in this is the need for keeping up to date with modern evidence and best practice. The HSE currently funds the Dental Health Foundation through a grant-aid agreement under sections 38 and 39 of the Health Act 2024. Therefore, matters relating to additional funding for the foundation are appropriate for the HSE to consider in line with business needs, avoidance of duplication, value for money and budgetary processes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Maria Byrne  I thank the Minister of State for her comprehensive response on behalf of the Minister. I appreciate that, at the end of the day, the responsibility lies with the HSE. Nonetheless, I have a concern.  While oral and dental health services are being streamlined, better value for money is being sought and new ways of doing things are considered, my concern is that if the Dental Health Foundation is wound up, there would be no body there to oversee things in the interim period between now and whenever new ways of promoting oral health are in place. There should be some sort of funding to manage that. The Minister of State might bring to the attention of the Minister and the HSE the important work that is being carried out to ensure our children have good dental and oral health. It is really important that the whole education effort should continue. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Marian Harkin  I have listened to and taken on board the points the Senator raised, including on early intervention, keeping people healthier and, which was her core point, the need for some kind of core funding solution for the Dental Health Foundation. I assure her that improving access to oral health promotion and prevention services is a priority for the Minister for Health and her Department. I restate my recognition of the important work carried out by the foundation as part of its function as secretariat to the expert body on fluorides and health. The foundation played a key role in assisting the Minister for Health in discharging the duty to monitor the health of the population receiving fluoridated water.  The HSE has responsibility for managing oral health promotion and prevention services. As I outlined, that includes the Supporting Smiles initiative, support for patients in residential homes and an upcoming initiative on oral health promotion in early childhood, which is currently in development. The oral health action plan reflects the importance of health promotion and disease prevention. The Minister is carefully considering that plan. I will convey directly to her the points the Senator raised today. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Maria Byrne  I thank the Minister of State. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionra\u00ed ar 1.52 p.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 2.01 p.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Sitting suspended at 1.52 p.m. and resumed at 2.01 p.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Dental Services"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_8","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Gn\u00f3 an tSeanaid - Business of Seanad","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_8","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Before I call on the Leader to outline the Order of Business, I extend my sympathies to Senator Craughwell on the sad passing of his wife during the summer. We all know that it had been a very difficult year for him and I know that all Senators were praying for him over the past number of weeks and months. On behalf of the House, I extend our sympathies to Senator Craughwell.  We will be observing a minute's silence - and we will include the Senator's wife in that - in relation to a former Member of this House, Enda Bonner, who died over the summer. He was a member of Donegal County Council. He served as a Member of this House from 1997 to 2002, and as a member of Donegal County Council from 1999 to 2019, representing the people of Glenties with dedication, integrity and distinction. He was widely respected across the political divide because of his tireless advocacy on behalf of the community he represented. He was hard-working, loyal and - like all Donegal people - resilient; qualities and characteristics he brought into his professional and public lives. He was a strong champion for rural, coastal and fishing communities, economic development and, of course, the Irish language.  Beyond politics, he was deeply rooted in the community. He was also a proud Dungloe man, a successful accountant and a senior partner in an accountancy practice in Letterkenny. He combined this professional career with his public and community service. He was also a great champion of the GAA and the Donegal senior football team. He was a graduate of University College Galway, where he captained the Sigerson Cup-winning team. His lifelong dedication to the GAA continued long after his playing days in his leadership as chairman and vice president of his club. He gave many years of service to Donegal GAA. He was well regarded not only in Donegal GAA circles but throughout the country. A devoted husband, father and grandfather, he will be deeply missed by his family. On behalf of Seanad \u00c9ireann, to his wife Phyllis, his children Elaine, Elizabeth and Patrick, grandchildren, sisters, extended family and friends and his colleagues in the Fianna F\u00e1il party who mourn his sad loss, ar dheis D\u00e9 go raibh a anam d\u00edlis.  I welcome another Donegal man here today to the Distinguished Visitors Gallery, Deputy Pat the Cope Gallagher. The Minister of State, Deputy Charlie McConalogue, will also be joining us later to stand for a minute's silence in memory of the former Member of this House, Enda Bonner, and Senator Craughwell's wife as well.  I ask Members to be upstanding. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Members rose. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Gn\u00f3 an tSeanaid - Business of Seanad"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_9","debateType":"orderofBusiness","bill":null,"showAs":"An tOrd Gn\u00f3 - Order of Business","counts":{"speechCount":51,"speakerCount":27},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_9","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fiona O'Loughlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Linda Nelson Murray","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael McDowell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","memberCode":"Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Murphy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Conor-Murphy.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patricia Stephenson","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Frances Black","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Frances-Black.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Frances-Black.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alison Comyn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Manus Boyle","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Manus-Boyle.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Manus-Boyle.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gerard P. Craughwell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerard-P-Craughwell.S.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Gerard-P-Craughwell.S.2014-10-10","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Flaherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Flaherty.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Joe-Flaherty.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pauline Tully","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niall Blaney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niall-Blaney.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Niall-Blaney.D.2002-06-06","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Shane Curley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Shane-Curley.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Shane-Curley.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Conway","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Conway.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joe-Conway.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sharon Keogan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria McCormack","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-McCormack.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Maria-McCormack.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Laura Harmon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sarah O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aubrey McCarthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Conway","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Conway.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Martin-Conway.S.2011-05-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Duffy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I ask the Leader to outline the Order of Business. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  Thanks very much, a Chathaoirligh. May I also be associated with your comments about former Senator Enda Bonner, who served his community in Donegal very well, especially Glenties? He was a Senator for five years from 1997 to 2002. All our thoughts are with Phyllis and his family at this difficult time.  As you said, a Chathaoirligh, we acknowledge Senator Craughwell on the very sad passing of Helen during the summer. I think we all knew it was going to be a difficult summer. I know that looking above, she would be delighted that you, Senator, are back where you love being and putting pressure on us. We were thinking of you during the summer; we all were.  The Order of Business is No. 72(6), motion regarding the notice of a vacancy in the membership of Seanad \u00c9ireann, to be taken on the conclusion of the Order of Business without debate; No. 1, motion regarding the arrangements for the address to Seanad \u00c9ireann by MEPs representing the European Parliament Dublin constituency on Wednesday, 23 September 2026 to be taken on the conclusion of No. 72(6) without debate; No. 2, Public Health (Tobacco Products and Nicotine Inhaling Products) (Amendment) Bill 2026 - Second Stage, to be taken at 4 p.m. and to conclude at 5.30 p.m. if not previously concluded, with the time allocated to the opening remarks of the Minister not to exceed ten minutes, group spokespersons not to exceed eight minutes, all other Senators not to exceed five minutes and the Minister to be given no less than ten minutes to reply to the debate; and Nos. 3 and 4, motions regarding proposed approval by Seanad \u00c9ireann of a proposal for a Council Decision on the conclusion of the agreement between the European Union and the Republic of Korea on the transfer of passenger name record data for the prevention, detection, investigation and prosecution of terrorist offences and serious crime; and proposed approval by Seanad \u00c9ireann of a proposal for a Council Decision on the signing on behalf of the European Union of the agreement between the European Union and the Republic of Korea on the transfer of passenger name record data for the prevention, detection, investigation and prosecution of terrorist offences and serious crime, to be taken at 5.30 p.m. and to conclude after 60 minutes, if not previously concluded, the motions shall be discussed together with the time allocated to the opening remarks of the Minister not to exceed five minutes, all Senators not to exceed five minutes and the Minister to be given no less than five minutes to reply to the debate.  I will also be moving a motion of sympathy at the end of the debate. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Thank you. Anois, Senator O'Loughlin. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fiona O'Loughlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Fiona-O'Loughlin.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Fiona O'Loughlin  Go raibh maith agat a Chathaoirligh. I thank the Leader for the Order of Business as outlined, which I support.  I extend on behalf of the Fianna F\u00e1il group our deepest sympathies to Phyllis, Elaine, Patrick and Elizabeth on the passing of Enda, who was an exemplary Senator but also a very effective and committed county councillor for the Glenties area for 20 years. He was incredibly committed to his community and to his political family. He excelled in everything he did, whether that was at a community level, a political level or at a football level, where his greatest pride was wearing his county jersey. He was a cousin of Packie Bonner and this was something he was incredibly proud of. Ar dheis D\u00e9 go raibh a anam.  I also extend our sympathies to our colleague Senator Craughwell. As we approached recess we knew Helen was very ill, but the difference now is that she is gone and I know that is a huge void in your life, Senator Craughwell, and our very deepest sympathies and thoughts go to you.  I also extend my sympathies to the Leader\u2019s secretary, Orla Murray, who lost her brother Brian very closely after the loss of her mother Joy. We extend our very deepest sympathy to Orla, who keeps us all in check and order.  I want to mention the Committee of the Regions, which is a really important organisation in which councillors right across Europe get a say in all the legislation that goes through the European Parliament. We have an excellent cross-party group of councillors. Gillian Coughlan is the leader and an exemplary one. The Committee of the Regions is having its bureau meeting in Mullingar today. Its members are going to the Custom House and they are going to be in Leinster House tomorrow. I really want to congratulate Gillian. She is the incoming leader of the Renew Europe group on the Committee of the Regions. She is the first Irish person to take that role. It is an incredible one, so the very best of luck to Gillian and, of course, to the Irish delegation going forward.  I congratulate Anna May, Anne Marie and everybody who was involved in the ploughing in Screggan. It was a fantastic microcosm of Irish life. We are all thrilled in Rathangan that it is coming to my home village and we are looking forward to giving everybody an incredible welcome. We will work really hard to make sure that happens.  The final point I want to bring up relates to solar farms and my concern that there is no national policy on them. There are many different applications and they vary across the 31 local authorities. The Departments of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, and Climate, Energy and the Environment are working to develop a national planning statement on solar energy but there does not seem to be an urgency around this. We see applications coming in right across the country. Germany, France, Spain, Italy and the Netherlands have a matrix for the use of land. We need a single framework that would standardise solar farms and solar farm applications. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Linda Nelson Murray","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Linda-Nelson-Murray.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Linda Nelson Murray  I would also very much like to pass on my condolences to Senator Craughwell. I spoke to him during the summer just before his wife passed away. It must be hard, but I am delighted to see him back here.  Today, I welcome the very positive changes announced yesterday to the hot school meals programme. These changes show what can happen when Government listens to parents, principals, teachers, children and those delivering the programme on the ground. A few months ago, I ran a survey and received over 8,000 responses. The Minister, Deputy Calleary, also conducted a survey and thousands of responses came in. A lot of work has been done on the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Education and Youth, of which I am a member. Through that work, we heard so much feedback. I am glad that feedback has been taken on board and changes are coming. One of the strongest messages we and the Minister heard was the need for greater choice, particularly the option of a hot or cold lunch. I am very pleased that this been addressed and from September 2027, there will be an option for children to have a hot or cold lunch. I also strongly welcome specially adapted menus for special schools and special classes, robust nutritional compliance audits with consequence for standards that are not being met and different portion sizes for different age groups because, quite simply, a sixth-class student should not be receiving the same portion as a child in junior infants. We are also going to see the procurement process examined and recipes revised. These are all very positive and practical changes. We sometimes forget how far this programme has actually come. It began as a pilot in 2017 in just 35 schools and is now in 3,200 schools, with 550,000 children benefiting every day.  We also need to remember why this matters. I was in a school in my hometown of Navan last week and the principal said to me that the children in the school are absolutely starving. Is that not heartbreaking to hear in 2026? While there are improvements being made and this announcement shows we are making them, we must also recognise the enormous positive impact of the scheme. Perfection must not become the enemy of good. This programme gives children equal access to food regardless of his or her family circumstances and that is something of which we should be incredibly proud. I also want to build on this by making sure the holiday hunger programme reaches as many children as possible next summer and that we are looking at providing support during Christmas and Easter holidays too.  Finally, I acknowledge and thank the Minister, Deputy Calleary. I am glad I got to thank him personally today. I also commend the Minister, Deputy Naughton, all the people behind the scenes, such as the interdepartmental working group, and everyone working to improve this scheme.  This has been a positive step forward. Let us keep listening, improving and, most important, feeding our children. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael McDowell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","memberCode":"Michael-McDowell.D.1987-03-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Michael McDowell  I want to be associated with the words of condolences from everyone to my colleague, Senator Craughwell.  Anyone who listened to Claire Byrne's programme this morning and who has seen the \"RT\u00c9 Investigates\" programme, which has now been taken down, will appreciate that the people involved in this major controversy are credible, well-motivated and truthful citizens. I have met on a number of occasions with Luke Rochford, Detective Superintendent Brian O'Reilly, Dr. Donal Corcoran, Rose Sweeney and Alan Kearney, and I am 100% satisfied that these are genuine and patriotic servants of the Irish State. I predicted that Garda management would attempt to cover up this major scandal, only part of which is in the public domain. Indeed, the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions sent two missives to RT\u00c9 even before the broadcast of the programme.  What we are concerned with here is the abuse of Garda power on a major scale. A young Irish soldier with an exemplary record in the Defence Forces armoury raised concerns with colleagues within the Garda and with people outside the Garda about major abuses in the Garda armoury and firearms sections at Garda headquarters. These abuses concerned not merely the dangerous storage of firearms and explosives, but issues such as the procurement of ammunition and the supply of equipment to An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. He was warned against speaking to other persons about his concerns and his position was threatened by his superiors. The matters he was concerned with were very serious. They included the procurement of \u20ac500,000 worth of grossly defective and dangerous ammunition in respect of which, remarkably, the Irish taxpayer bore the brunt of the \u20ac120,000 cost of destruction. His complaints also concerned improper travel and entertainment perks offered by suppliers to Garda personnel in Italy, which included wining and dining, a visit to a nightclub and, subsequently, to a brothel.  He raised the dubious procurement of hugely defective holsters, which have now been withdrawn on safety grounds, but not before the very serious injury of Detective Garda Connell while protecting the Israeli Embassy, who, for his trouble, was subjected to disciplinary actions by his superiors.  He also raised the authorisation of the use of Garda funds to carry out work on weapons possessed by a gun club, one of whose members was the son of his Garda superior, and the importation of parts for that purpose on foot of fraudulent documentation submitted to the Department of justice by persons within the Garda firearms section. None of these people involved in that matter have been suspended or disciplined.  For his trouble, he was arrested by members of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na publicly at a five-a-side football match, made to lie on the ground, had his hands handcuffed behind him and was detained under the Offences Against the State Act and brought to Irishtown Garda station. His locker had previously been opened and pages of notes in which he had detailed his concerns were ripped from a notebook there. A later staged opening of his locker was photographed by members of the Garda technical branch.  The home of his former commanding officer in the Defence Forces were searched under the Offences Against the State Act. The officer also has an exemplary record and had been selected for appointment as Captain of the Guard in Leinster House but his Garda security clearance was withdrawn and he was denied his due promotion in the Defence Forces until the intervention of the Ombudsman for the Defence Forces.  The efforts of Rose Sweeney and Donal Corcoran to have the holster protected disclosure of Luke Rochford properly investigated using Colonel Ray Lane, a highly respected Army officer, were then illegally countermanded by the then Commissioner, as has now been openly admitted by the current deputy commissioner. The careers of honourable decent people in Ireland have been blighted and destroyed. I am profoundly shocked by what I know and have learned.  I raised some of these issues on the record of this House on 17 July last year, the last day of the previous term, and was assured by the then Leader that the new Commissioner and Minister for justice would address these matters. These issues need to be fully and independently investigated in order that public confidence in An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na and its supervision at force and governmental level can be examined independently. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  As Members are aware, Standing Order 52 covers the issue around adverse effects on people who are not here to defend and speak for themselves. Standing Order 53(8) also talks about the public interest.  I understand that Members will raise issues here under public interest for the citizens of Ireland who may raise issues. On the other hand, they may be on the receiving end of adverse effects upon them for speaking up on behalf of people or on issues that they feel need to be raised. When Members raise issues they will take the public interest into account. Due to the privilege they have here as Members of this House they are allowed to speak openly and freely and not suffer any adverse consequences, while taking into account the balance they have to strike in relation to any statements they make in this House. The public interest is always the one that people keep to the fore in their thoughts when they are discussing issues here. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Murphy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Conor-Murphy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Conor Murphy  I join with those who have offered condolences to former Senator Bonner's family and to our colleague, Senator Craughwell, on his sad loss over the course of the past number of weeks.  During the summer season, most people expect that political debate goes to bed but in relation to issues of our Constitution and the future on this island, the debate was very much alive over the latter days of the summer, should that be the foolish remarks of the new Prime Minister, Mr. Burnham, in dismissing the prospect of a unity referendum, or the remarks of the American President when he was visiting here. His remarks are not anything to build any solid foundation on but nonetheless those remarks, and his preference and offered support for reunification in Ireland, had the effect of elevating that debate and discussion onto an international level. It very much reflects the bipartisan support there always has been in the United States, not just for the peace process in Ireland but for constitutional change in Ireland.  Following that, the development between my own party, the Scottish National Party and Plaid Cymru also had the effect of elevating that debate in Britain where it very much needs to be heard because it is not just a question of our constitutional future. There is a real question now over the constitutional future of Britain itself, which has been advanced. We have made it very clear. Unfortunately, there was an attempt to misrepresent this. We are all on different paths regarding this. The future of constitutional change in Ireland is not contingent on anything happening in Scotland or Wales or vice versa . The arrangement we have with them is a long-standing one. Other parties in this State had it in previous times gone by. It also reflects the nature that in the event of constitutional change, both in Ireland and Britain, we need to maintain those relationships right across these islands and have productive working relationships together. The attempt by the Taoiseach to misrepresent that was unfortunate but given where he is in this space, I get that he tends to react in a hostile way to anyone else discussing the issue of unity.  On a more negative note, we also had the development of the attempt to bring us back into the past in the North where the leadership of the Orange Order and leaders of political unionism want to revisit the Drumcree issue of a march along the Garvaghy Road, which is something that has been settled for almost 30 years. It is something that has caused real concern and trauma for those who lived through that experience back in the nineties when significant loss of life was attached to the attempts to force a parade down the Garvaghy Road. I hope that wise heads will prevail in the Parades Commission and that we do not have a decision to try to force a parade along the Garvaghy Road. It would be hugely detrimental to all that we have achieved over the past number of years. The Taoiseach has an invitation to meet with the residents of the Garvaghy Road. I hope that he takes that up and recognises there is a contribution to made here. I ask that the Leader ensures that senior Government Ministers remain engaged on this process and issue because it has a potential for setting us back some way in the North. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patricia Stephenson","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Patricia-Stephenson.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Patricia Stephenson  I lend my support to the condolences as well, particularly to Senator Craughwell.  Over the past few days, and throughout August, we had consistent attacks on the International Criminal Court, ICC, by Trump's Administration, most recently with the plan to have sweeping sanctions against the entire court. It is an incredibly troubling escalation and attack on our international justice mechanisms. They are effectively aiming to dismantle the systems and the institutions of international law and take a sledgehammer to the whole concept of a rules-based order. These new measures would severely undermine the work of the court with the ICC president, who is already under sanction, warning that they could jeopardise the court's very existence.  ICC officials have warned that court-wide sanctions would disrupt things like IT, insurance, empowering investigators and routine transactions such as paying US-based employees. This constitutes yet another egregious overreach and naked attack on international law from the Trump Administration. In July, Marco Rubio explicitly set out the intent to systematically disable the ICC\u2019s ability to operate. We have already seen how the Trump Administration has weaponised sanctions against individuals, including several of the court\u2019s judges. These sanctions were retaliatory measures for the ICC\u2019s work regarding the actions of US personnel in Afghanistan and, indeed, the issuance of the arrest warrant against Netanyahu for the genocide in Gaza. We have to stand up to this. We have to stand up to these attempts to undermine our international systems.  The Taoiseach and the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy McEntee are attending the UN General Assembly this week. I call on both of them to take actual action to draw a line under these attacks from the US and through our European Presidency role, introduce a blocking statute to protect EU citizens who are under sanctions by the US. We have been calling for this for a while. It does not seem like anything is being done to push this forward. This is crucial to stopping the tide of the impact of these sanctions. Otherwise, there is no accountability for international war crimes, the heinous genocide in Gaza or those committed historically in places like Rwanda, Sierra Leon or Kosovo. We are saying it does not matter anymore. That is what Trump is trying to do because he himself is trying to hide from accountability and justice. It is urgent and crucial that in the next three or four months, while we retain the Presidency of the EU, we really push for the EU blocking mechanism to be put in place and, more broadly, call the US's actions out very clearly to the Government. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Frances Black","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Frances-Black.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Frances-Black.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Frances Black  On behalf of the Civil Engagement Group, CEG, I too send condolences to the family of Enda Bonner and especially our own colleague, Senator Craughwell, and his family. It has been a tough road for him and our thoughts are with him. I also send condolences to Orla Murray on the loss of her brother.  The last time I spoke in the Chamber was just before the summer recess to mark the passage of the Government\u2019s version of the Occupied Territories Bill. It was a very significant step after so many years of work by many fantastic activists and organisations. However, as I and many of my colleagues made clear at that time, it was also a missed opportunity. The Government's ban will prohibit the import of physical goods from illegal Israeli settlements and I welcome the fact that the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade signed the commencement order last week. However, for the ban to actually take effect, it requires a second Statutory Instrument from her to designate relevant postcodes taken from EU level. I would like for the Government to update this House on when that will happen. It would be really great if the Minister could come in and give us an update on that.  More importantly, despite recognising that this is an obligation under international law and the ICJ advisory opinion, the legislation banned only physical goods and did not cover trade, services and investment. The Minister told this House that she recognises that this is necessary and will push for it to be done at EU level. There have been many developments over the summer that are important. First, Ursula von der Leyen and the European Commission have made it crystal clear that they will not come forward with a proposal to ban trade with settlements, never mind one that goes further than individual member states that have acted already and whose legislation includes services. If that is the Government's strategy to meet these legal obligations, it is clear that it will not happen. However, It was encouraging earlier this month to see a joint statement by a long list of countries stating that they are going to move ahead with national level bans, including France, Canada and the UK, which pledged to include provisions on services just like Spain and Norway. We can see here the benefit of Ireland acting and showing leadership, despite what several Ministers told me over many years \u2013 and I mean several. We have not been left isolated. Other countries are now following. However, we also see there is much more for us to do. With the right political will, we can do as others are doing, and include services. I would like the Minister to update the House on the Government's response to these very important developments. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alison Comyn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Alison-Comyn.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alison Comyn  I also extend my condolences to the family of the late Senator Enda Bonner, and to my colleague in the Seanad, Senator Craughwell, on the passing of his beloved Helen. May her gentle soul rest in peace.  I raise something that I have raised in the past in the Chamber, the proliferation of vape shops across the country. There is a particular impetus at the moment because there are so many issues, such as heritage, health and legal considerations. We need a timely debate in the Chamber. I raised it at the Fianna F\u00e1il think-in. I was delighted that the Taoiseach, Miche\u00e1l Martin, picked up on it and said that we have to seriously look at them. We have to look at whether the vapes themselves should be on our streets. How many vape shops do we need in every town? They are popping up on every street corner. In my hometown of Drogheda, we are into the multiple figures. We have four of them in one street. It is the same with nail bars, mobile phone shops and all of those kinds of shops. How many do we need? They need to be seriously examined. Many vape shops are masquerading as sweet shops. They are now being called \"candy stores\". We have obesity problems with our children. We know that some of those who are pushing sweets to bring children into their shops are selling these products to those who are under age. We have made that illegal here and we have also made it illegal to sell HHC products. I know from speaking to many people, particularly in my hometown and county, that they are still being sold over the counter quite openly. The shops are being raided again and again, and we do not seem to be able to close them. A timely debate is needed with the Minister for justice or the Minister for Health. I know that the Minister of State, Deputy Murnane O'Connor, has worked incredibly hard on this issue. We need to look at how many we need. Do we need to bring Revenue in to see whether some of them are legitimate? I know some of them are. I am not anti-business, but surely we can come up with better quality shops for our towns and cities. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Manus Boyle","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Manus-Boyle.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Manus-Boyle.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Manus Boyle  I pass on my condolences to Senator Craughwell on the death of his wife and also to Phyllis and the Bonner family. Enda was a man who I knew fairly well. He served on the council along with my father years ago. We had many chats. Believe it or not, during the last chat I had with him about six months ago he told me what I was doing wrong and how he was only putting me right. I thank him for those kind words. We also lost a superstar in Donegal during the summer. I send my condolences to the McHugh and O'Donnell families, and especially to Emma and Eoin, on the deaths of James and Noreen McHugh, who sadly lost their lives over the summer. James was part of the 1992 panel. He really was one of the superstars who brought Sam to Donegal.  Over the summer I travelled to fishing ports over the length and breadth of this country. The frustration that is out there is unreal. It is coming from fishermen and fisherwomen all over this country. I cannot put it into words without getting really mad. I know from talking to inshore fishermen, factory owners and pelagic boat owners that they are all feeling the pain. I know the fuel support scheme came in and there is money left. It needs to be drawn down. We need the Minister to get us answers. We need to get answers on where the Berkery report is at. When will it be published? When can we see it? Where are the port listings for Killybegs? We were told before Christmas that the port listings for Killybegs had been applied for, but I heard today that they have not been applied for. Other countries like Denmark had it within three months. Simple things can make a big difference to coastal communities. Where is the brown crab consultation process at? This issue with brown crab has been going on for years now. We need to get that sorted. Are we going to stand up and fight for Ireland on the Hague preferences or we are just going to roll over as usual? We need our people out fighting for this. All I have heard since I entered politics is about the reform of the Common Fisheries Policy, CFP. We need to be doing more than reforming it. We need to get it sorted out. I am sorry, a Chathaoirligh, but it is time for action. We have heard enough words being spoken for the last while. We need action on this. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gerard P. Craughwell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerard-P-Craughwell.S.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Gerard-P-Craughwell.S.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Gerard P. Craughwell  I thank everybody for their offers of condolence and in particular my group which stood by me for the three months that Helen was in hospital and the hospice.  It is a pretty shocking thing when you get notice and are told you likely have a year ahead of you, when that year shrinks to a couple of weeks.  Over the next couple of Orders of Business there are a number of things I want to address. Helen was very accepting of her fate and she set about planning everything to do with the end of her life. That included such things as enduring power of attorney, the advanced health declaration form, the hospice itself and how she wanted her final burial carried out. It was extraordinary at times to visit her in the hospice and find the level of good humour I found. She was still able to take the mick out of people and to deal with some of the horrendous things that were confronting her. Her love of her children and her grandchildren was palpable all of the time. The one thing she was adamant I would do was to use the office I have to point out some of the issues that families encounter at this time.  Some of these are issues we all should be thinking about today and are some of the things we should be doing in preparation for the end of our own lives. None of us knows when we get up in the morning that we will go to bed that night or when we go to bed at night that we will get up the following morning. It takes a person of extraordinary courage and strength to sit down, having been given her diagnosis, to engage with me on things like the kind of music she wanted for her funeral. One of the amusing things she said to me at the time was \"I wonder will Miche\u00e1l Martin attend my funeral\". I laughed and said there was no chance of that. She said, \"What about the Defence Forces? You spend your life talking about them. Will I get a guard of honour?\" I said I doubted that very much. I remember the day before we went to the church the funeral directors contacted me saying they needed to talk about protocols. I asked what protocols they meant and they said the Taoiseach was going to be represented at my wife's funeral. I said, \"Jesus, do not do that to me, she will sit up.\" The Chief of Staff of the Defence Forces and the Ceann Comhairle were represented, and many Members of this House and the Lower House contacted me. It was in the middle of holiday season and people were away and not able to attend, but there is a massive comfort in having people come to you at a time like this and sympathise with you.  Looking around the Chamber here now, I do not think any of us can possibly understand what it is like. I went away for a week to try to clear my head once everything was over. I came back at 10 o'clock on a Friday night and turned the key in my front door. I walked in the door and the silence was deafening. I walked into the conservatory and switched on the TV set and the bloody sound would not work. I looked towards the heavens and I said, \"You really are having a laugh now, aren't you?\" At the end of the day, that silence is there every day. Her beloved dog, Pickles, is in the house, and the lazy so-and-so will not move himself. He just curls up in a ball and lies down. Every now and then he goes out and looks up the stairs to see what is happening and comes back in and sits down, but for company I would be better off with a teddy bear.  I really do thank colleagues and over the coming days I want to deal with those things, such as enduring power of attorney, the advanced health declaration and the hospice. When we were told Helen was going to the hospice I thought \"death\". Never once did anybody in the hospice mention the words \"die\", \"death\" or anything like that. Thursday night in Our Lady's Hospice in Harold's Cross is the place to be if you fancy a drink and a bit of music because the bar opens and it is a great night. I will leave it at that and will come back on the other stuff over the next few days. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank Senator Craughwell for sharing that very intimate final few weeks and days of his wife's journey on this earth and his support for her. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Flaherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Flaherty.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Joe-Flaherty.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joe Flaherty  This summer finally saw Horse Sport Ireland, HSI, enter examinership and, finally, the rest of the country knew what those in the sector have been saying for many years, namely that HSI is, in fact, an impediment to the growth of a sector that the examiner, Joe Walsh, has said is worth in excess of \u20ac1 billion annually and employs upwards of 20,000 people.  We are not likely to hear again from those behind the examinership process until early October. However, many within the sector were taken aback by comments from Ross Gorman, counsel for the examiner, who said there was a distinct possibility that they may be able to salvage HSI. He spoke about broad consultation with directors, senior executives, employees, creditors, Revenue, bankers and other stakeholders.  I want to try to give voice to the people who are very much at the heart of the \u20ac1 billion industry every year. These are the breeders and horse owners, the man with one horse, the man who might have one foal a year and the people who have given blood, sweat and tears to this industry over the years. It is important that their voice be heard.  For the past four years, HSI has been bedevilled by controversy, all of its own making. As far back as October 2022, the board split amid CEO controversy. In November 2022, there was an attempted removal of the CEO, six directors resigned, and there were reports of a \u20ac650,000 severance package and settlements. In 2023, five former staff took court cases against HSI in just two years. In October 2023, there were reports of hurdles remaining for HSI after the boardroom fallout the previous year. Fast forward to July 2024 and divisions deepened between HSI and affiliates. In 2024, we had the absolute calamity of the passport and IT failure, when we saw a complete breakdown in the issuing of passports for foals and new horses. In 2025, showjumpers revolted. In October 2025, there had been more bullying complaints and eventing owners had complained. In front of our eyes, we saw a much-loved sector literally falling apart under the gaze of an organisation that is heavily funded by the Government to support and promote the sector. Finally, in August 2026 there was the financial crisis and the entry into examinership.  No other State-funded organisation or affiliate has undergone such a barrage of criticism and damning reportage over a four-year period. The facts are telling and beyond question. The facts cannot be ignored. This examinership process presents the perfect opportunity to finally disband HSI before it can do any more damage. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I referred earlier to Standing Order 52 in relation to utterances in the House and the public interest. I realise many of the issues raised here today are in the public domain and many of the names mentioned are also in the public domain, having been reported in the media and dealt with by committees. I just want to make sure Members strike the balance between the public interest and people's right to their good name. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pauline Tully","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pauline-Tully.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Pauline Tully  I too would like to be associated with the expressions of sympathy, particularly to my colleague Senator Gerard Craughwell on the sad passing of his wife, Helen.  I want to raise the issue of the school bus transport system because, since the beginning of August, I have been inundated with communications from distressed parents over the fact that their children have not received school bus tickets for the return to school. Some children who had tickets for several years were suddenly left with no place on the bus. Some of the parents were not even notified by email or anything like that. They saw on the portal, when they went to check whether a ticket had been issued, that they were going to receive a refund. In many cases, both parents are working. They have to pay the cost of living, mortgages and so forth.  In many cases, there are very easy fixes. In several instances, there is a small bus doing a run that, if replaced with 24-, 33- or 52-seater, or whatever the case may be, would accommodate all of the students on statutory tickets who have been left without tickets for this school term. It would not cost very much. It would still be the case that only one driver would be paid. There might be a slight increase in the cost of fuel, but that is it.  The whole system is in disarray. A school transport review was carried out, which took years. The report was published in 2024 and, from what I can see, none of its recommendations has been implemented, even though the Government said it would take them on board and make the changes over the period 2024 to 2030.  Nothing has happened. I cannot see any capacity increases. The distance rules have not been changed. The necessity to attend the nearest school to be deemed eligible has not changed. It is something that needs to be addressed. School transport is essential for many families. It also gives a very good life pattern for young people in that they get into the habit of using public transport, which is important for the environment and to reduce our emissions.  I am calling on both Ministers and the Department of Education and Youth to address this issue once and for all, so we do not see a repeat every year. We need to address the shortages that exist now for those students who have been left without any transport. It cannot be allowed to happen again and again. There are some easy fixes. They have the review. What needs to happen is given. That review must be implemented without any delay. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niall Blaney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niall-Blaney.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Niall-Blaney.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Niall Blaney  I begin by passing my condolences to Senator Craughwell on the passing of his wife. I apologise I missed the funeral over the summer. I was not around.  I concur with the expressions from the Chair in relation to my former colleague Enda Bonner, who was a former Member of the House. Rather than trying to address all that Enda was in the small amount of time left for me, I ask that time be allocated on our agenda at a stage when we can invite his family here to hear the expressions of sympathy, as has been afforded to other Members in the past. I propose that to the House.  My colleague, Senator Manus Boyle, mentioned the sad passing in west Donegal, which is his neck of the woods, of James and Noreen McHugh. I attended the wake also and met Manus there that day. Such a sad scene I have never witnessed at a funeral or a wake, where two coffins were side by side. I send my condolences for the loss to all the people in west Donegal and all the GAA family in Donegal on the passing of Enda and James. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I am sure the Leader will provide time in the Order of Business in the coming weeks, in conjunction with the families and Members from Donegal, to ensure we have expressions of sympathy for the former Senator to give people more time to put on the record his great service to this House, to Donegal and to Ireland. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Shane Curley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Shane-Curley.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Shane-Curley.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Shane Curley  I also express my condolences to Senator Craughwell on his sad loss and also to the family of former Senator Enda Bonner from Donegal.  Another summer has gone by and Carrabane National School in east Galway is still in limbo when it comes to its new-build primary school. It is disappointing to be back here, with kids back at school for yet another school year, and still have that bit of uncertainty around the future of those students and where they are going to be located in the coming months and years. They literally just need the letter of intent. They have gone through the entire school-build process from start to finish twice. They had to go back to square one on the planning permission and went through it a second time. This is decades in the making to get to the point where they can hopefully get diggers on the ground in the coming weeks. Even the planning and building unit, PBU, in a joint Oireachtas committee, admitted that this is an exceptionally long process that has been drawn out and that the people in the local area should not have had to go through the timeframe they have had to go through.  Builders do not magically appear on site. There is a lead-in time where they have to plan out their first steps once they get on site. As we head into the winter months, we urgently need to get them on site as quickly as possible. It is just to get that letter of intent issued to the people locally and give them certainty that their school is finally being built. They are crying out for it and we have gone on so long that I have had to raise this numerous times in the House. People are really frustrated. I would like to see this happen immediately. If we have to talk to the Minister to talk through why there are such delays in this process causing such anger in the community, that could be something we have to look at.  I wish to raise the issue of wind energy guidelines. Tonight, in Killalaghton Hall there will be a meeting of the public to discuss the proposed wind farm in their area, for people in Killalaghton and the neighbouring parishes like Mullagh and Kiltormer. It is 20 years since 2006 when wind energy guidelines were last updated. Since then, the average size of a windmill has gone from 70 m to upwards of 180 m, which is huge and nearly a trebling of the size of a windmill that is then put into a local community. There is uncertainty out there. People want clarity on what the new rules are going to be. They want them urgently so there is a process in place, people know where they stand, and that there is a very clear process by which companies get the go-ahead to put windmills and wind farms into communities, especially in east Galway, where we see a huge influx of applications for planning permission for them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Nessa Cosgrove","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Nessa-Cosgrove.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Nessa Cosgrove  I also want to be associated with the expressions of sympathy today, particularly to my colleague, on Helen. Suaimhneas s\u00edora\u00ed d\u00e1 hanam d\u00edlis.  I welcome the transition year student who is on placement with me from Summerhill College in Sligo, who is very welcome.  We are going to be speaking about budget submissions. I went to the recent ESRI report conference about poverty, income inequality and living standards. The question of how we measure poverty came up. The Taoiseach was disputed or there was confusion about how we measure poverty. The Taoiseach was cited as saying that the rate of children living in consistent poverty has actually gone down, but it fact it has been rising when we take housing costs into account. I would hope that any debate we are having here over the next couple of weeks, when we are looking at budgets, will include relative income poverty and how much spending power people actually have. This report lines up with the CSO statistics as well. When we are measuring poverty, we see that one in five children lives below the poverty line. When we look at the amount of income people have left after being able to afford new shoes or a decent coat to spend on going out for leisure activities or after-school costs, we see that one in five children in Ireland is living in poverty. Over the years, housing costs have been overlooked in the measurement of poverty. Children who are most at risk of living in poverty are those whose families are in private rented accommodation or in receipt of the housing assistance payment. Their disposable income is left too low and they are left with nothing at the end of the month. Over the next few weeks when we are looking at budget submissions, I hope housing will be included when we are considering children living in poverty. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Fitzpatrick","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","memberCode":"Mary-Fitzpatrick.S.2020-06-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mary Fitzpatrick  I share in the sympathies of all Members with Senator Craughwell on his sad loss. I know that he provided loving care; may his wife rest in peace. I am very sorry for his loss. I would also like to extend my condolences to the Bonner family and support Senator Blaney's request for time for the family to be allowed to come to the House and for an appropriate tribute to be made to the former Senator Enda Bonner.  It is a great privilege for all of us to be back here after the recess. I was nominated by RGDATA, which represents all the small, independent Irish retailers. The Leader will be aware that over the term of this Oireachtas, I have raised many times the burden of the increasing cost of doing business on small, independent enterprises. They are the backbone of employment, community and service right around the country. Over the summer the Minister, Deputy Peter Burke, launched the report on the cost of doing business. It was a result of the work of his Department and all the stakeholders. I commend everyone who contributed to that report. We are hearing all the time about increasing costs and the cost of living. Small businesses have experienced energy cost increases of almost 50%, while insurance costs have increased by over 26% and labour costs by over 15%. These are real costs which in many cases are preventing the businesses from growing, expanding their services or even being sustained. I would like the Minister to be invited to the House at the very earliest opportunity to outline the Government's priorities. There were 63 recommendations to improve the ability of small business and enterprises to compete, not just here in Ireland but internationally. I would like the Minister to outline to the House how the Government intends to prioritise the 63 recommendations and how their implementation will be monitored. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Conway","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Conway.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joe-Conway.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joe Conway  All Members will be familiar with the murder, in the not-too-distant past on our neighbouring island, of two parliamentarians, Jo Cox and Sir David Amess.  During the summer past, we had Ann Widdecombe, a former MP, and last week, unfortunately, in our own State, a serious assault on a Member of the Lower House.  To protect against these things, the Government wisely brought in a scheme whereby people could enhance the security of their residences. Unfortunately, that has yielded up unintended consequences. During the summer the local radio station in Waterford, which was only doing its job, sent in a freedom of information request to the local authority asking for the names of councillors who availed of the grant. This was published with the names and addresses of the recipients and the amounts they drew down. For more unintended consequences, while highlighting the two who got the security grant, it also drew attention to the fact that 30 councillors were without security at their homes.  This is not the way things should happen with freedom of information. Councils must be cognisant of section 37 of the Freedom of Information Act, which forbids people giving out the address, location or personal details of third parties. It is an offence under that section to do so. Whenever the Leader or any Member of the House is interchanging with the Minister of State, Deputy Cummins, or the Minister, Deputy Browne, will they ask that the Department sends out a circular to local authorities, reminding them of section 37 so that no councillor has to go through the ignominy of having their security threatened by that release of information? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  I also extend my condolences to the family and friends of former Senator Enda Bonner, and to Senator Craughwell. It is a difficult time for him and it is great to see him back in the Chamber.  I was in the 3Arena on 1 August when a 31-year-old boxer, Lee Reeves, was fighting. It was a tough fight. Lee was stopped. It looked serious at the time but we only found out afterwards how serious it was. Lee is in a coma. He is breathing on his own but in desperate and urgent need of an operation. I have been in contact with his family and they are understandably devastated. Lee has had to have a section of his skull removed to allow for his brain to expand. It needs to be replaced but the operation has been cancelled twice. That is simply not good enough. The operation is needed as a matter of urgency.  Yesterday, Lee managed to partially open his eyes and to squeeze his father's hand when prompted. It is a very small step to recovery but at least it is something positive. The HSE needs to ensure this vital operation is carried out as a matter of urgency. There is a meeting with the Reeves family and medics in the Mater Hospital today. It is important for his recovery that Lee gets the operation. He needs a definite timeline. They cannot afford for it to be cancelled for a third time. The family is devastated. Lee is in a very delicate state of health. Will the Leader's office engage with the HSE to ensure the urgency of this operation is passed on? He is a young man, 31 years of age, with a big future ahead of him but it is vital he gets the treatment he needs now. Our thoughts remain with Lee and his family and we hope he makes a speedy and positive recovery. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sharon Keogan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Sharon-Keogan.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Sharon Keogan  I join my colleagues in expressing condolences to the friends and family of Enda Bonner - may he rest in peace - and to my colleague, Senator Gerard Craughwell, on the loss of his wife, Helen.  What I wish to speak about today is the story that was in The Irish Times this morning, where the president of the Irish Road Haulage Association, IRHA, warned that hauliers cannot sustain current fuel prices. When asked if there would be another round of protests, he said that desperate times make desperate people. As fuel prices continue to climb, regardless of Government taxes or not, I think it is fair to acknowledge that we are now in desperate times. Before anyone says that this is just one group of people representing one industry, it is not. Last week, a poll showed that if fuel prices continue to rise, a massive 60% to 66% of the Irish public would support a new round of protests. That is no surprise, because fuel protests do not just affect truck drivers. Everything in this country relies on fuel and energy prices. If anything goes up, the ordinary working people of Ireland are already on a knife's edge. All of Europe is reporting record high fuel prices. The Middle East is in crisis, as there looks to be no resolution with Iran and the Saudi Government is cancelling its oil shipments. While I naturally believe that the Government should delay the taxes, this is a stop-gap solution. What this entire crisis says is that we need a total overhaul of our energy policy. I will repeat my call from before. I think we need to go further and scrap fuel taxes altogether, and we need to invest our current surplus into serious long-term infrastructure such as public transport, roads, railways, and even nuclear energy, things that will pay us back in the long run. Most of all, I believe we need to seriously re-evaluate and scrap much of the eco-alarmist policies that have left our hands tied behind our backs at a time when we are fighting for our lives. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria McCormack","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-McCormack.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Maria-McCormack.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Maria McCormack  My condolences to Senator Gerard Craughwell. I thank him for sharing those details of his wife, Helen.  I am really delighted to be back. The most important issue and what I have been listening to people talking about in rural Ireland all over the summer and especially at the ploughing match in Screggan last week is the cost of fuels, including home heating oil, petrol and diesel. We are up at \u20ac2.20 a litre in the midlands for diesel. This cannot be sustained and green diesel has gone through the roof. Today, my colleague, Deputy Pearse Doherty, will bring legislation through the D\u00e1il to cut the carbon tax on home heating oil and I really urge us to work together here. We have solutions. We know that families cannot take this any more. A full tank of home heating oil can now cost between \u20ac1,600 and \u20ac1,700. People in rural Ireland and all across Ireland cannot afford this, especially those in rural Ireland who rely on oil. We are thinking of our elderly people - pensioners - who cannot afford it. They are putting \u20ac100 or \u20ac200 worth of fuel in their tank and they cannot sustain it like this, on top of everything else that families are facing. In rural Ireland, people need fuel to go to work, the supermarket and to hospital appointments. We have to look at the overall tax that we have on fuel. I am asking the Government Senators here to urge their Government colleagues to support the legislation before us, and let us remove the carbon tax on home heating oil. We know that it can make a difference and it can be done now. People have to take to the streets to protest because they could not cope any more. We are going to see more of that and I support them 100% to peacefully protest because they cannot sustain the level at which the price of fuel is going up and how much tax is going into the Government's pockets and how much profit is being made here. We know that is as clear as day for everyone to see. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Laura Harmon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Laura Harmon  I also want to extend my condolences to Senator Craughwell on the passing of his wife. My condolences also to the family of Enda Bonner.  I want to talk about the issue of Bessborough, Cork. There have been significant developments in recent months in relation to this. We had a rally in July in Cork city with over 1,000 people attending from across the country. The evening before the rally, the Taoiseach said that he was going to intervene, which he did. Cork City Council is now engaging with the developer as a mediator has been appointed. That is where we are at but this issue is not going away.  I know that I will stand with campaigners all the way to ensure that this site is fully protected. We have to listen to survivors in terms of what the future of that site will become, whether it is a memorial or an educational institution. Survivors have to be at the heart of this. Just last week, Cork City Council, through Labour Party councillors led by Councillor Peter Horgan, unanimously passed a motion calling on the Government to unseal all the burial records and technical reports in relation to this site, and also for the Government to work with the Attorney General to open an inquest into the deaths that occurred at Bessborough. We know that Bessborough is just one of many institutions across the country. On \u201cThe Late Late Show\u201d last Friday night, we saw Catherine Corless describe it as a mirror to what happened in Tuam. Siobh\u00e1n McSweeney, the actor from Cork, said rightly that private developers cannot get in the way of our collective healing as a country. We need more answers from the Government on this. We need to ensure there is justice for all survivors, and that survivors are at the heart of any decisions in relation to Bessborough and other sites across the country. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sarah O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Sarah-O'Reilly.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Sarah O'Reilly  I too wish to be associated with the condolences to Senator Gerard Craughwell on the death of his wife, Helen, and also to the family of former Senator Enda Bonner.  Since the last few weeks of August, my office has been dealing with the school bus ticket chaos, as I call it. We have parents contacting us who cannot get their children on the bus to school. It is the same story every year, with parents desperately trying to find a solution when school comes back, bus drivers threatening to walk off the job and empty buses travelling past children standing along the side of the road. I have been dealing with families from Crosskeys, Shercock, Tierlahood, Laragh and Lurgan and from Emyvale in County Monaghan. The stress on parents, especially on families where both parents are working, is unbearable. They cannot take time off work and rearrange their lives indefinitely to drive their children to school. Bus \u00c9ireann has been offering a refund, but that does not resolve the problem. I know of parents who are putting their children on buses with no tickets, which is extremely stressful for the children, who are terrified that a bus inspector will inspect them. That is not a solution. I raised this issue in 2021, when there was a review of the school bus scheme, and the same thing was happening then. We have had that scheme and, in my view, nothing has changed or been achieved. The solution is more capacity. Bus \u00c9ireann has confirmed to me that the Minister has not approved any additional capacity this year to date. The school year starts in September. However, Bus \u00c9ireann knows the figures at the end of May because the applications for bus tickets close at the end of May. It is unacceptable that we have this mess every year in the week or so before school starts, when people get notification at the very last minute. We should have the Minister in the House to discuss this. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alice-Mary Higgins  I want to join in the expressions of condolence.  I agree on the issue of buses. I have been hearing about the school bus issues. I request that the Leader would arrange a debate in the House on public transport. Many people were shocked to see that at a time when we should be doubling down and increasing our public transport, when we know we are facing an environmental crisis and when fuel prices are going up, instead of increasing capacity in our public transport system, including our public school transport system, we are looking to increase the costs and increase the charges that people are paying. We have heard the statistics that when these costs increase, fewer people use public transport. It is a wildly counterintuitive measure to be taking at this time. I would like a debate on transport.  I also note that as we are coming back today, we can see the rooms filling up, but people are missing today as the schools and colleges start.  Students from Gaza who have full scholarships, are fully supported, have met every academic bar, have funding in order to attend colleges, have overcome unimaginable obstacles coming out of Gaza - a place where every university has been destroyed and bombed - and who have managed to achieve the offers of places and scholarships in Irish universities are being blocked by the Department of justice. I would like the Minister to come in to explain that issue. He could also explain his remarkable lack of progress on the issue of criminal legal aid.  I also note that we are moving the writ for the Seanad by-election. I care a lot about the Seanad and think it has an extraordinary contribution to make to politics. One thing I have seen over recent times that I regret is the fact that for two or three Seanads in the time I have been here, we moved from having Independent Members, civil society and voices from Northern Ireland and from the idea that we would try to bring a different sense of civil society, expert voices and diverse voices into the Seanad to contribute to the debate and scrutiny we carry out in terms of legislation. I would love if this by-election became an opportunity to bring back that focus on the voices that might be different, that might bring something different to the work we do and that might add something new to what we are doing. I believe the Seanad should not simply be a staging post for the D\u00e1il and a focus on the D\u00e1il. It is fine if people move their ambitions to the other House after being here but when we are collectively deciding on a new addition, it would be good if we were to think in terms of what will directly and specifically contribute to our collective work and be open to that idea. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aubrey McCarthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Aubrey-McCarthy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Aubrey McCarthy  As a Senator on the university panel, I wish to point out that between 2022 and 2024, our universities took in more than 10,000 additional students of whom 9,000 have arrived without the additional funding. I ran for the Seanad two years ago and one of my campaign messages was that universities should be properly funded. I certainly stand over that. I also see that education is the future of our youth. I know that since 2022, the Government has funded the gap, which was underfunded by \u20ac307 million per year. Budget decisions have cut the gap by more than half but university chairs are saying that they need extra funding as the deficit is over \u20ac250 million per year because pay awards are not fully funded and student numbers keep rising. State funding per student is around \u20ac8,000, which is 30% lower in real terms than in 2008.  I acknowledge the hard work of lecturers, research staff and everybody who carries that load. As we can see, the universities have not stood still. They have raised funds through philanthropy, loans and even the immigrant investor programme and the microcreds programme, and have brought in 600 more courses and reached over 20,000 learners. The Irish Universities Association is asking for an increase of \u20ac190 million in core funding in budget 2027 and that part of the near \u20ac2 billion surplus in the National Training Fund be unlocked for lifelong learning and reskilling. Our universities contribute over \u20ac10 billion per year to the economy. University chairs are warning that if that investment does not come, within ten years, FDI will go elsewhere so there is certainly a need for that. I ask that the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science comes to the House for a debate on university funding before then. I ask the Leader to use his offices to make that happen. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Martin Conway","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Martin-Conway.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"Martin-Conway.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Martin Conway  I also wish to be associated with the expressions of sympathy to Senator Craughwell and to say to him that we are thinking of him at the moment and have been thinking about him over recent times.  I stood here a number of months ago and expressed my disappointment at the fact that Lahinch Beach in County Clare lost its Blue Flag. The primary reason for this was the lack of a proper wastewater treatment facility in Lahinch-Ennistimon. The system was and is not fit for purpose.  There has been movement on the issue over the past couple of months but, sadly, that is where the good news stops. What is being proposed in the first instance is what we call the Cregg-Calluragh wastewater treatment facility. It is a secondary treatment plant whereas what is required at a minimum is a tertiary facility. The people who have decided this, in their wisdom, through their research, etc., maintain that at any point over the next 25 years, the Lahinch and Ennistimon area will not have more than 10,000 people who will use the facility, which I do not think is credible.  The other issue is its location. The neighbours and people whose land it is proposed to put this facility on are not happy. It is not good enough to dismiss it in any cavalier way and say that because it is in my land or my neighbourhood, I do not want it. That is not the case. These people live in the community, are part of it and work in it. They want to see a proper treatment plant the same as anybody else. However, there are concerns, including environmental, habitat and ecological concerns, and so on. The fairest and most ethical and moral stance to progress this project for Irish Water is to have a non-statutory public consultation, which will at least give people the opportunity to make submissions. My request to the Leader is that he would write to the Minister and request him to instruct Irish Water to launch a non-statutory public consultation so that the concerns of the public in the immediate area, and surrounding Lahinch and Ennistimon area, can be heard properly in an ethical framework and in a timely manner that is transparent in all its deliberations. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Duffy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mark Duffy  I offer my sincere condolences to the Bonner family on the sad passing of former Senator Enda Bonner and, of course, to our good friend and colleague, Senator Craughwell, on the sad passing of his dear wife over the summer. My thoughts and sympathies will be with Senator Craughwell in the difficult weeks and months ahead. I thank him for sharing his difficult story with us today.  Tomorrow will mark 75 years since the beginning of one of the longest droughts in sporting history. That was when Mayo beat Meath in the 1951 all-Ireland football final. I am glad to report that since we last convened, that drought and famine was lifted against the Cathaoirleach's county of Kerry. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  We have already discussed it this morning but I congratulate the Senator. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Duffy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mark Duffy  We discussed it before the recess and there was an air of arrogance that has since been put to bed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I admit that the Senator is not incorrect in his statement. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Duffy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mark Duffy  Mayo played and lost 11 finals. There was a lot of heartbreak and many near misses. There were a lot of great memories along the way. A lot of loved ones have since passed. For Mayo to be finally crowned all-Ireland champions has given the whole county and country, and our diaspora around the world, a brilliant lift, even among Kerry folk. I acknowledge and thank the Mayo players, team and staff, and the volunteers across the clubs of the county, who have given so much joy and happiness to young and old alike. They have handled themselves with incredible integrity and have been so generous with their time. They have been present at every school, hospice and hospital across the county. They have attended every fundraiser. They have answered the call. It is no wonder they are all-Ireland champions, given how they have handled themselves since the final whistle. I thank them. I would welcome the opportunity to have both teams visit Leinster House and the Houses of the Oireachtas. The Cathaoirleach can meet and eyeball them. He can welcome and acknowledge----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I would be quite happy to welcome them to the Seanad. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  As long as there is celebration. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Duffy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mark Duffy  The celebration has only begun. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Chris Andrews  We know. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Duffy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mark Duffy  I congratulate the 11 nominees for the all-star team, including Jack Carney and Ryan O'Donoghue, and Kobe McDonald and Darragh Beirne, who have been nominated for the young player of the year award.  It has been a brilliant summer of celebrations in Mayo. It will continue on into the winter and with our diaspora as well. I would encourage them to come to Leinster House and would welcome them letting us share in that with all Oireachtas Members who have Mayo connections.  I thank Andy Moran and all of the team. I was there when he came into Ballaghaderreen. I was thinking of the late John O'Mahony and all who have gone before us, who would love to have been there. The curse is finally over. The famine is over, as Stephen Grealish reminded us. For every young Mayo boy and girl, the spark has been lit and the dream is back alive. Mayo are back. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  You see how gracious we are in Kerry that the Senator went way over time and I never even rang the bell once. I said, \"You know what? If it only happens once every 75 years we can definitely give extra time on it\". I said this morning that it was quite a scene after the game itself to see the celebrations on the pitch in Croke Park. I think there was somebody who was 91 years of age when the cup arrived in Mayo in the past couple of weeks and he was quite emotional on the return of the cup after 75 years. We look forward to the Mayo team coming here at Senator Duffy's invitation. We will welcome them to the Seanad with an open heart and I congratulate them on what was a fantastic achievement in football. After ten minutes, it looked like it was going to be number 12 but it did not turn into number 12, which showed the fierce heart of the team.  Before I call on the Leader to respond on the Order of Business, I welcome guests of Deputy John Paul O'Shea, Deputy Brennan and Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell. I think we have a great-granddaughter of the former Senator Gaffney, who served here in the 1930s. She is most welcome to Seanad \u00c9ireann. I thank her for being here. The particular bell I was ringing to restore order is the same bell that he would have heard when he was here nearly 100 years ago now. We also have friends of Sharon Pettit, and we have the Texas and Wicklow Roses here as well. They are most welcome to Seanad \u00c9ireann and I thank them for being here. Anois, the Leader to respond on the first Order of Business of the new term. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  I thank the Cathaoirleach. You would know we were on summer holidays. Twenty-five questions have come in today, which is much larger than most days.  I will take the last one first. You even see an air of confidence and a little bit of arrogance coming into Mayo as well after the couple of weeks they have had. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I would not say that. It is joy unconfined. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  Like the Cathaoirleach, I come from a county where we are used to winning. It is actually nice to see Mayo succeed. It is a good idea to bring them in. On a serious note, it creates excitement and a buzz, particularly for young children. It is a time they will never forget and they will be talking about the win of 2026 in 50 years' time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gerard P. Craughwell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerard-P-Craughwell.S.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Gerard-P-Craughwell.S.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Gerard P. Craughwell  Wait for the next one. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  They are a very good team. I think they could go on a run here. Confidence is a great thing as well. There is a good opportunity to bring them in here and if for nothing but to frustrate the Cathaoirleach, I think I should allocate some time to speak about it when they are here as well, if that is agreed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Duffy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Mark-Duffy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Mark Duffy  Agreed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  As I said, we have 25 contributions so I will try to keep it as brief as I can.  Senator Fiona O'Loughlin spoke about the work the European Committee of the Regions does. It is led by Councillor Gillian Coughlan and we know members of that committee who are in our own party. I know Councillors Br\u00edd\u00edn Murphy, Jimmy McClearn and Neil Feighery do incredible work, but as a team they represent local authorities across the country incredibly well. It is great to see them acknowledged.  As the Senator said, the ploughing championship has been a real success and that brings pressure when it comes to Kildare next year. It is great to see good numbers and good weather for it. The Senator's main point was on solar farms and I think she is right. There is a need for a Government policy on this. I know the Minister of State, Deputy John Cummins, is doing a lot of work in his Department on it but it affects a number of Departments, including the Department of agriculture with the Minister, Deputy Martin Heydon. It is something a policy needs to be put together for because, as the Senator knows, it is being talked about an awful lot, particularly in rural areas where there is good land being used for solar farms.  Senator Nelson Murray spoke about the changes to the hot school meals programme. She has been pushing this for months and months and doing up her own survey and report on it. It is good to see the feedback has been taken on board and that changes are going to be made this time next year in having hot and cold meals. Anyone who, like me, has young children going to school knows children want a choice between hot and cold meals. It is important to say we will have a debate with the Minister responsible, Deputy Calleary, next Wednesday specifically on the programme and the changes that are going to be made.  Senator McDowell spoke about the \"RT\u00c9 Investigates\" programme that aired last week. It has actually come down from the RT\u00c9 Player. I was trying to watch it on the player but it was not available. An awful lot came out from that, which is very worrying and disturbing. Questions need to be answered in terms of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. The Senator raised a number of issues. It is not for me to speak on them without having all the facts but he referred to responses from the Commissioner and An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. I think he said the former Leader of the House responded to him as well and that he was not satisfied with it. In relation to the then Leader's response, I have it here, and he spoke about this before it became a big issue. In fairness to the Leader he said he would request a debate on it. He said: \"It is an important issue and he has obviously put a lot on the public record in this Chamber. In doing so, I hope it gains traction and that this is examined.\" That is what the former Leader of this House said, so he took it very seriously at the time.  Senator Conor Murphy spoke about Irish unity. This has been touched on in the past number of weeks because of the UK Prime Minister coming over here saying one thing and the US President coming here and saying another thing. As the Senator said, it is important to keep relationships going and to maintain relationships on both sides, irrespective of what one side or the other says. An awful lot is changing and we need to be real about the fact the conversations are now happening about what a united Ireland would be and what it would represent. We need to be open to that. It is always important to acknowledge as well that the president came over here and talked about a united Ireland. This was a visit some people did not want to have or they did not want to meet him. What I encourage, even in the contribution of the Senator, is having dialogue, being open and continuing relationships. I ask for that to happen during the St. Patrick's Day visit when Ministers and people who have influence and who have contact, especially with America, go and use that to benefit the progression of the united Ireland ambition.  Senator Stephenson spoke about the attack by the USA on the International Court of Justice. This has been an ongoing issue. The Taoiseach and many Ministers are in America this week at the UN and I have full confidence they will raise an awful lot of those issues the Senator has raised.  Senator Black spoke about the occupied territories Bill. She said other countries are now following, and it has been the Government's position from the very start that if we do this, other countries can follow. The biggest strength would be if there was a European-led movement on this. As the Senator said, Ursula von der Leyen's comments are not extremely helpful and there are a lot of countries that just are not willing to move but we still need to keep working. We have done an awful lot over the past year by convincing countries to come on board and we will continue to do that.  Senator Comyn spoke about vape shops. It is an incredibly frustrating situation. I have been speaking to Councillor Fergal Nealon in Sligo who has done an awful lot on it in his hometown. It is incredibly frustrating that shops are being done up to attract young kids in particular. By \"young\" I do not mean 15- or 16-year-olds but eight-, nine- and ten-year-olds. Something needs to be done about it. In fairness to the UK Prime Minister Andy Burnham, he is doing an awful lot to make changes and give more responsibility to councillors. It is something I am working on via legislation to give power to councillors to say what can be in their town centres. We see four, five or six vape shops in a row on some main streets and that is not good for anyone. According to the police investigation report that was done in the UK, a lot of the vape shops are being used for money laundering.  I am not saying that is happening but I am saying that it would be helpful if we had some sort of investigation in this country.  Senator Boyle spoke about the fishing industry and frustration within the community. No one knows the fishing industry better than the Senator. He is constantly an advocate for the people in County Donegal and the people of Killybegs and the fishing community as a whole across the country. They need answers and they need reform and it is time, with a budget coming up in the next couple of weeks, when money is needed to support that sector. I know the Senator will work extremely hard to convince the Ministers to do that.  Senator Craughwell spoke about his late wife, Helen, which was very touching and very moving. It reminded me a lot of mam. When he was talking about Helen and the good times, even in her last couple of days - I said this to him last week in a private conversation - you have some of the funniest times two or three days before they pass and you know they are passing, but they are great memories in a really weird way. He spoke incredibly well. It was my mother's anniversary mass on Sunday - 26 years. Time heals but you still remember. I understand what he means in terms of those lovely moments you have.  Senator Flaherty spoke in relation to Horse Sport Ireland. I need to be careful in terms of anything I say on that because there is still a process in place in terms of the examinership. In fairness to the Senator, he outlined the concerns he has been raising in this Chamber for quite some time.  Senators Tully and O'Reilly spoke about the school bus transport system. This is something that comes up every year but it seems to be coming up a bit more. One of the issues many people know is that because it is free transport, a lot of kids are put on a school bus but they are not actually taking the seats. It is one of the reasons the price of the school bus increased previously. Certainly, more needs to be done because it is a huge worry for families and parents. As the Senator said, it is actually a really good thing for kids to get used to using public transport.  Senator Blaney spoke in relation to the late Enda Bonner. I am more than happy to allocate time to have an opportunity to speak about the late Senator's contribution in the Seanad and his contribution as a councillor at a time that might be suitable for when the family could be here as well. I will speak to the Cathaoirleach and the Deputy Leader to see what would be possible.  Senator Curley spoke about a school in Carrabane in his own constituency, which just needs a letter of intent. I will speak to the Minister on that. That really should be done. I cannot see why there should be a hold-up on that. I hope that can be done as soon as possible. In relation to his contribution on wind energy guidelines, there has been no update on those guidelines in 20 years. People need to know what the new rules will be. I suggest that the Senator tables a Commencement matter on that issue.  Senator Cosgrove spoke about poverty and particularly child poverty. That is a challenge and it is a focus of every budget that is done every year to try to minimise child poverty. In her contribution, the Senator spoke an awful lot about certain issues but did not talk about the actual changes that have helped child poverty, including simple changes such as free transport to school, free books, hot school meals and reduced fees in colleges. An awful lot has been done to try to tackle that issue. It is not enough and more needs to be done but the Government will not be found wanting in terms of supporting children.  Senator Fitzpatrick spoke about small retailers and the representation RGDATA engages in on the cost of business. She asked for a debate with the Minister, Deputy Burke, which I will try to facilitate. I will contact his office to have a debate on the report on the cost of doing business. There were 63 recommendations in that. It is a good opportunity when businesses are struggling to have that debate in this House.  Senator Conway spoke about assaults on politicians from all levels; we all know councillors. There was a long conversation - I was going to say on the Joe Duffy show but it is now the Joe Duffy replacement show - about women in politics and how challenging it is for them. Then, we had the awful assault that happened to Deputy Michael Healy-Rae last week. The Senator brought up an issue that is critically important in terms of councillors, however. There was a situation during the summer where councillors who had security allowances to protect their homes or offices were named and they should not have been named.  Every Member in this building, be it a TD or a Senator, can avail of security allowances to protect them and their staff. They cannot be named for security reasons. It should be no different in all councils.  FOI requests are done by councils on an individual basis, as is the case with Departments. It is not up to the Minister to say how a council should manage FOI requests; that is up to the council. It seems to me to be blindingly obvious that no council should give out the addresses of councillors. Tipperary County Council has taken down all addresses of councillors from its website.  As we know, when an FOI request is submitted for a councillor, the councillor should be informed before the FOI request goes out in order that if there are any issues like this, the councillor can go to the council and say he or she does not think his or her address should be given or that something should be stated. The council can then make an informed decision based on what a councillor said and the FOI request. We struggle to get people to run for local office. If people are named and supposedly shamed for trying to protect themselves and their families, that is wrong and needs to be changed. I have spoken to the Minister of State, Deputy Cummins, about this and he is of the same view.  Senator Andrews spoke about a boxing match where a young boxer, Lee Reeves, was terribly injured. He needs help and support, which I am sure he is getting from the hospital. I do not know why the operation has been cancelled twice. It is obviously a clinical matter for the doctors. I will speak to the Senator after the Order of Business to try to get the details and contact the hospital to see what can be done. It seems to be a terrible case and incredibly worrying for the family.  Senator Keogan spoke about the comments from the president of the Irish Road Haulage Association on fuel prices, which Senator McCormack also mentioned. Prices have increased dramatically over the past number of months. That is why the measures were extended until November. We will have a budget and decisions will be made in a number of weeks but the Government has not been found wanting when it comes to supporting people during the fuel crisis. Some \u20ac750 million was allocated only a couple of months ago to try to support farms, businesses and citizens. If more support is required, it will be provided. I note the Senator said we need to scrap all taxes on fuel and to fund public transport. I am not sure how we pay for putting additional funds into public transport if we cut taxes on fuel. There is an opportunity to have a debate on that. I am sure that when the budget is announced in a couple of weeks, one of the topics in this Chamber later that day will be fuel support.  Senator Harmon spoke about Bessborough, Cork. I believe she was one of the first people to raise the matter in this House and it is now getting traction due to the comments of Siobh\u00e1n McSweeney and others. It is in the Taoiseach's constituency and he is very conscious of it. Decisions will have to be made, as the Senator said, being conscious of survivors at the heart. I hope that will be the case.  Senator Higgins asked for a debate on school transport, which we will try to have. She also raised difficulties faced by students in Gaza, something which has been raised in the Seanad on previous occasions.  Senator McCarthy raised a very interesting point on the number of students across the country having increased over the past two or three years and the added financial burden that places on colleges. There is a request for an extra \u20ac190 million in the budget and he has advocated for that. We will try to have a debate with the Minister for higher education on funding and support for third level colleges.  Senator Conway spoke about Lahinch Beach, a beach I know very well. I was there during the summer for a couple of days with my family. It is a fantastic area, beach and town. It is another prime example of where infrastructure is critically important. He spoke about wastewater treatment. We need to provide significant investment for and speed up the provision of infrastructure. He asked me to contact the Minister for housing to get Irish Water to set up a public consultation.  I will do that. It is only right that Irish Water should be available and open to consultation with members of the public from Lahinch.  Regarding Senator Duffy's remarks, I have clarified that already. Everyone has congratulated the Senator. The one thing that I forgot to say is that when the Mayo team was lifting the trophy, I thought they were going to hand it to Senator Duffy, who was literally behind the captain. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I do not know about the football field, but Senator Duffy always had great positional sense in politics. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  He is now going to be in a photo that will be seen for hundreds of years. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Order of Business agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"An tOrd Gn\u00f3 - Order of Business"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_10","debateType":"motion","bill":null,"showAs":"Death of Former Member: Motion","counts":{"speechCount":2,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_10","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Mark-Daly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Regarding Standing Order 153(1), before the Order of Business I announced the death of a former Member of this House, Enda Bonner. Members stood for a minute's silence. One of the Standing Orders of this House ensures that all former Members are remembered by the House. I ask the Leader to read out the motion that will be sent to the family this week. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  I move:  That Seanad \u00c9ireann:  - expresses its deep sadness on the death of Enda Bonner;  - conveys its sincere condolences to his family; and  - expresses its gratitude for his notable contribution, as a member of Seanad \u00c9ireann, to Irish public life and for his dedicated service to the people of Ireland. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Death of Former Member: Motion"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_11","debateType":"motion","bill":null,"showAs":"Vacancy in Seanad Membership: Motion","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_11","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  I move:  That the Clerk of Seanad \u00c9ireann do send to the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage notice of a vacancy in the membership of Seanad \u00c9ireann occasioned by the election to D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann of Senator Se\u00e1n Kyne, a member elected from the Nominating Bodies Sub-Panel of the Cultural and Educational Panel at the General Election for Seanad \u00c9ireann, January, 2025. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Vacancy in Seanad Membership: Motion"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_12","debateType":"motion","bill":null,"showAs":"Address to Seanad \u00c9ireann by Members of the European Parliament: Motion","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_12","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Ahearn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Garret-Ahearn.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Ahearn  I move:  That, in accordance with Standing Order 63(1) and the approval of the Committee on Parliamentary Privileges and Oversight, Seanad \u00c9ireann agrees that, in respect of the European Parliament Dublin Constituency, Mr. Barry Andrews MEP, Ms. Regina Doherty MEP and Mr. Aodh\u00e1n \u00d3 R\u00edord\u00e1in MEP, may attend and be heard in Seanad \u00c9ireann on Wednesday, 23rd September, 2026, and that the following arrangements shall apply:  The proceedings shall commence at 2 p.m., shall not exceed two hours, and shall consist of\u2014  (a) a speech of welcome by the Cathaoirleach;  (b) an opening address by each MEP which shall not exceed six minutes in each case;  (c) a contribution not exceeding five minutes by a Spokesperson from each Group;  (d) a single response not exceeding five minutes by each MEP to the combined issues raised by the Group Spokespersons;  (e) questions from all other Senators in accordance with the sequence set out in the Schedule to this resolution, which shall not exceed two minutes in each case;  (f) a reply and concluding statement of not less than five minutes by each MEP;  (g) a speech of thanks by the Leader of the House; and  (h) concluding remarks by the Leas-Chathaoirleach;  and the members of the European Parliament may take seats on the floor of the Seanad Chamber.  Schedule  Fianna F\u00e1il Group  Fine Gael Group  Independent Group  Sinn F\u00e9in Group  Cross-Party Group  Civil Engagement Group. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionra\u00ed ar 3.42 p.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 4.01 p.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Sitting suspended at 3.42 p.m. and resumed at 4.01 p.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Address to Seanad \u00c9ireann by Members of the European Parliament: Motion"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_13","debateType":"debate","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/36","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/36\/seanad\/2","houseCode":"seanad","stage":"2","isBillStage":true,"showAs":"Public Health (Tobacco Products and Nicotine Inhaling Products) (Amendment) Bill 2026: Second Stage (Seanad)"}},"showAs":"Public Health (Tobacco Products and Nicotine Inhaling Products) (Amendment) Bill 2026: Second Stage","counts":{"speechCount":12,"speakerCount":6},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_13","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Murnane O'Connor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Teresa Costello","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Teresa-Costello.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Teresa-Costello.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Conway","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Conway.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joe-Conway.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanne Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question proposed: \"That the Bill be now read a Second Time.\""},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Chris Andrews)  I welcome the Minister of State. She has ten minutes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Murnane O'Connor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor)  I am delighted to introduce the Bill to the House. Its purpose is to reduce the appeal and accessibility of e-cigarettes, vapes and other nicotine products, including nicotine pouches, particularly to our young people. This Bill has passed through D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann without amendment. While there was constructive debate on some of the specific details, there is a shared goal with this legislation to do everything we can to reduce the number of young people using these products.  This issue is not new to us after all the debates we have had. We had the single-use vapes legislation, which I spoke on here. I thank Members again for their contributions and support in getting that legislation over the line. It has been commenced and the ban will take effect from 24 January next, so we are nearly there. The National Environmental Health Service will engage with the industry to make sure everyone is aware of the new rules.  Ireland has one of the strongest legal frameworks in the EU for these products. Nicotine is highly addictive and we do not want a new generation becoming dependent on it or moving on to tobacco smoking and, of course, the devastating health harms it can cause. A Health Research Board, HRB, report found that young people who vape are more likely to smoke. Overall, smoking among children has fallen to 5%, but smoking among older teenagers is still very widespread. Our ambition must be to bring that rate to zero.  Tackling tobacco directly remains essential, but we must also ensure that the changing nicotine market does not undermine that progress. This Bill therefore introduces targeted measures to reduce the appeal and visibility of nicotine inhaling products. It will restrict colours and imagery on vapes and on the packaging, ban devices that resemble or function as toys, games or other products, restrict flavours and promotional flavour names, restrict point-of-sale display and ban advertising in retail settings.  During this Bill's passage in the D\u00e1il, there was some debate around the decision to restrict certain flavours. That was the biggest issue I came across when I spoke on this in the D\u00e1il. In developing this Bill, however, we have recognised that most adults who vape previously smoked and that some people use vapes as part of an attempt to quit. However, smoking rates have remained broadly similar since 2019 despite an increase in vaping. There has been an increase in the number of adults who use vapes but who have never smoked, so that is another concern. Research using Healthy Ireland data also found that the link between the use of vapes and the intention to stop smoking had disappeared across all age groups by 2023.  The measures in this Bill are therefore designed to reduce use among young people while ensuring that these products remain available in some form to adults who smoke. The flavours proposed are those that are less likely to appeal to young people and follow the recommendations of the WHO, as well as several other member states that have already regulated in this area.  The review provision and the Minister's power to amend the list of proscribed flavours will allow us to monitor the impact of the legislation and respond where necessary. This legislation is also being introduced alongside significant investment in free, safe and effective stop-smoking support. Funding for the HSE Quit programme increased from \u20ac13 million in 2021 to more than \u20ac20 million in 2025. We will continue to increase access to evidence-based support for people who want to quit smoking. I have been on to my own Department and have also been looking at a programme for quitting vaping. That also needs to be examined.  The Bill also creates a new category of nicotine consumption products, including nicotine pouches and future products intended for the recreational consumption of nicotine. This futureproofs the legislation so that new products entering the market can fall within the regulatory framework. These products will not be permitted for sale to persons under 18 years of age. As I always say, it is illegal to sell to under-18s. Retail display and advertising will also be prohibited. These will also apply where products are being distributed for free.  During the D\u00e1il debates there were, of course, those who would have liked to see this legislation go further for these products. I broadly supported this but there are issues of timing and the interaction of this law with the EU legislation. We are working with EU legislation, which can take up to six months. This is what is happening with this particular Bill, which has taken just about six months. This Bill has been notified to the EU under the technical standards directive. The standstill period for that notification ends on 7 October so we will have word from the EU on that date. It is my intention to enact the Bill as soon as possible after that.  We have moved ahead of the EU with our original plans for vapes and newly approved baseline measures for other nicotine products that would, by their nature, not fall under this harmonised EU law. However, regulations of these products themselves would be most effective at European Union level. A proposal for a revision of the EU tobacco products and advertising directives is expected towards the end of this year. We are expecting that by the end of the year. That is why it is important. If we got that word by 7 October, we could work on this Bill. The EU is to come back to us hopefully by the end of the year on its own regulations. The European Commission recently published its evaluation report, and it highlighted some key areas that a revised directive should address such as new nicotine and tobacco products and the rise of digital marketing. That is a huge concern for everyone.  The aim with the Bill is, therefore, to move forward with these important restrictions as soon as possible without risking further delays due to EU developments. Ireland is ready to progress broader EU-wide regulations should the proposal be published during our Presidency of the European Union. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Teresa Costello","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Teresa-Costello.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Teresa-Costello.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Teresa Costello  I thank the Minister of State for being here today. I welcome the Bill. It is an important public health issue, particularly for our children and young people. It is about ensuring that our legislation keeps pace with a nicotine market that is changing rapidly. For many years, when we talked about nicotine addiction, we were talking about cigarettes. Today it is very different. We have vapes in a wide range of flavours and packaging and we have newer products such as nicotine pouches, which are small, discreet and easily concealed.  I welcome the fact that the Bill takes a future-proofed approach. It creates a category of nicotine consumption products that will encompass nicotine pouches and other recreational nicotine products that may emerge in the future. This is really important because we cannot be in a situation where every time a new nicotine product appears on the market, we have to play catch-up. The Bill will prohibit the sale of nicotine consumption products including pouches to people under 18. It restricts advertising and point-of-sale displays, regulates the appearance and packaging of nicotine inhaling products, restrict flavour descriptions and addresses devices designed to resemble or function as toys, games or other products.  It is important that we look at why these measures are necessary. The concern is not simply that young people are using a new product; it is that we could have a whole new generation dependent on nicotine. The HSE tells us that children and young people are particularly vulnerable to the negative effects of nicotine.  It is highly addictive. In a developing brain, it can cause problems with attention, learning, mood and impulse control. The pouches can contain high levels of nicotine. They can increase heart rate and blood pressure and cause sleep problems. They also cause concerns around teeth and gums, mouth ulcers, nausea and nicotine poisoning. Importantly, because these are relatively new products, we do not know their long-term health consequences yet. That is something we need to stop and think about, particularly when we are talking about children and teenagers potentially beginning to use these products at a young age.  There is a question of well-being. Addiction is addiction, regardless of how nicotine is delivered. A young person should not feel they need nicotine to concentrate, relax, socialise or just to get through their day. The HSE's own research has found that experimentation with vaping can begin in children as they enter secondary school. Parents feel overwhelmed by the range of products available and uncertain about what their children may be using. The way some of these products are designed is significant, as has been dealt with in the Bill, with bright colours, sweet flavours and packaging that can resemble sweets and other everyday products. Research suggests that these characteristics can make vaping products particularly attractive to younger people. That is why I welcome the measures in the Bill dealing with the colours, imagery and flavour descriptions.  I want to briefly mention the marketing. There have been concerning media reports in recent weeks about nicotine pouch brands having a presence at major Irish festivals, including Electric Picnic, Forbidden Fruit, All Together Now and Beyond The Pale. At Electric Picnic, for example, there were reportedly games and competitions, branded caps and sunglasses, and free nicotine pouches available to adults following age verification. The companies involved have said that their products are for adults and that age verification procedures were in place. That is fair and well, but it raises a broader question about the normalisation of nicotine. We spent decades removing tobacco advertising and sponsorship from sport and entertainment because we understood the power of associating an addictive product with music, friendship and social occasions. We should be careful that we do not allow that association to be recreated with a new generation of nicotine products. The market is growing rapidly. One leading pouch brand reportedly saw Irish sales increase from 6 million pouches in 2023 to 29 million in 2024.  We should remember what Ireland has already achieved through public health legislation. The workplace smoking ban was a major change when it was introduced in 2004. Today, walking into a smoke-filled pub, restaurant or workplace would be alien to a whole generation of younger Irish people. That legislation protected workers and the public from second-hand smoke but it did something else. It changed what was considered normal and demonstrated that public health measures can change behaviour and attitudes over time. We should bring the same determination to protecting young people from nicotine addiction today.  We need to be balanced in our approach. Many adults who vaped previously smoked. Some people use vaping while trying to move away from cigarettes. Preventing people from starting smoking and helping existing smokers to quit must remain priorities in our public health policy, as smoking continues to have an enormous human cost. Tobacco smoking kills more than 100 people every week in Ireland and causes more than 1,000 hospitalisations. I welcome the fact that regulation is being accompanied by investment in cessation. Funding of the HSE quit programme has increased substantially. For young people the HSE Quit4Youth programme provides specific support to help them stop smoking or vaping. That is important because our response cannot be about telling people what they cannot do. We have to help people who have developed an addiction to get out of it. There will always be another flavour, product or package, so future-proofing our legislation really matters. We need a regulatory framework capable of dealing not only with the products that are on the shelves today but with what will arrive.  Through the smoking ban and other tobacco control measures, we have shown that strong public health policy can make a real difference and we should build on that progress. The objective is very clear: to prevent children and young people who do not smoke from becoming dependent on nicotine in the first place and to continue to support those who want to quit. I really welcome the Bill and thank the Minister of State for all her work. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joe Conway","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joe-Conway.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joe-Conway.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joe Conway  Cuirim f\u00e1ilte mh\u00f3r roimh an mBille seo agus admha\u00edm go bhfuil s\u00e9 an-\u00fas\u00e1ideach sa troid i gcoinne an stuif nimhneach seo at\u00e1 istigh sna \"vapes\" - an t-ainm a thugtar orthu. My grandfather used to tell me stories of watching poor quality American detective movies during the Second World War. He would tell stories of the private detective lurking in the shadows with his upturned collar and his hat slung down over his eyes, standing in a doorway or on a corner watching a suspect or somebody of doubtful motives. The detective would invariably be smoking a cigarette. As the quarry approached, the detective would take his cigarette from his mouth and toss it nonchalantly on the ground. There might only have been about one quarter of the cigarette smoked and because it was during the war years, a great groan would go up in the cinema to see the profligacy of these Americans throwing away three quarters of a cigarette when they could get none.  The point of my story is such behaviour glamourised cigarette smoking in the movies. We had advertising in the fifties and its growth in the sixties and into the seventies until governments came down heavily on the tobacco companies. All these people who exploit our human weaknesses have a great ability to zero in on those weaknesses and monetise them. That is what is happening to our young people with this vaping industry that has become commonplace in the last 20 years.  The Minister of State spoke of people using vapes who have never smoked in their lives. I have a couple of millennial children. Of course, they tell me they do not use them themselves but they say many of their friends who never smoked in college, or until fairly recently, are now vaping and have become seriously addicted to nicotine. There are insidious effects on their health and their pockets. It is an unseemly waste of time and it looks gauche. Short of picking your nose, I cannot think of anything more gauche than watching somebody go out into the street, sucking on a vape, blowing an aimless puff of whatever it is into the air and deriving satisfaction from that.  I applaud the Government's diligence in pursuing this legislation. It concurs with European legislation. However, I am worried that when you come down heavily on things like this, there is a great tendency for those things to go onto the back streets and the black market. Invariably, what comes into the black market is substandard - if you can have a high standard of vape. These things are powered by batteries and if cheap batteries from countries with low standards of production are married to insidious, harmful, noxious content, there is the possibility of facial injuries, not just to the skin but to the back of the throat, and long-term effects on breathing and pulmonary health. Have we thought about bringing in strict penalties and vigilance among the Garda and other agencies to police the possible explosion, for want of a better word, in the use of black market products in response to the proposed legislation?  Time and again we hear of efforts made by the Minister of Finance and T\u00e1naiste in trying to engender a greater culture of saving among our people. God knows, we knew that. We need only calculate the cost of a packet of cigarettes. I do not know what vapes cost, but if someone is vaping on a daily basis, it makes a nonsense of State efforts to generate saving, because the natural addictive nature of the substance is drawing people into dissipating their money. The old expression is, \"A fool and his money are easily parted\" and they are making fools of our young people. All of this is just a waste of money, going into criminality in the black market and going into people who are exploiting our younger people. I am delighted to wait back here in such a quiet Chamber to make my feelings known. There is a whole philosophical debate about this and that we should not be nanny stating about things like drink, gambling and vaping and so on. However, there really comes a time when we have to try to look towards the kinder angels of our nature and bring them to help people who are being exploited and impoverished by these products. Once again, I am delighted to be supportive of the proposed legislation and welcome it. I hope that in the fullness of time. the Minister of State may bring in a range of measures that will hit hard at people who are selling back street stuff and black market product as well. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Maria Byrne  I thank the Minister of State for coming here today and bringing forward this very important legislation. It is good that we are bringing forward the Bill. The Minister of State outlined the scope of the Bill and what she intends to do. I recently met representatives of the Irish Cancer Society and the Irish Heart Foundation. They have concerns that in the current wording of the Bill, flavours and graphic colourful packaging are significant factors that draw young people, which the Minister of State mentioned. Is it proposed that flavour and packaging restrictions do not extend to nicotine consumption products under the current wording of the Bill? Maybe she could look at that. The organisations were concerned that the Bill would not go far enough. The flavours and smells are attracting young people. That might be the best way of putting it.  Another thing was raised with me as well that I am not sure whether it is in the Bill. These are the big puffs, which can have up to 25,000 puffs. In the UK I understand they can be up to 50,000 puffs out of one vape. That is not currently illegal in Ireland but it is something that needs to be looked at in the long term. Perhaps now is an opportune time for it to be included. It is good that there are going to be restrictions. It is about discouraging people from vaping because even though we do not have proof regarding vaping, it is believed and I believe myself, that it is not good for you. The number of people smoking has decreased due to the smoking ban but we now see people vaping all over the place. It is good that we are looking at restrictions on vaping going forward. I commend the Minister of State and the Department on bringing this forward. I am looking forward to working with her on it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Joanne Collins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Joanne-Collins.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Joanne Collins  I welcome the Minister of State to the Chamber. I am probably the only person who will stand up and not necessarily advocate for vaping but I will advocate against the banning of flavours. As everyone knows, I am a former smoker and a current vaper.  I have spoken to many people over the summer. It is funny. When you are on a night out and you leave the pub or you are at a wedding and you go outside to have a vape, because we have spoken about this so much in the House the first thing people say to me is: \"Oh my God, please tell me they are not actually going to ban our flavours.\" These are adults that I am talking about, not children.  Not for one minute do I advocate for children to be vaping. For anybody who has never smoked a day in their life to pick up a vape is very silly because it is an addiction. Nicotine is an addictive substance. I started smoking at the age of 11, back when I knew no better. I wish I could go back in time and not do that. As I have said before, I gave up smoking and took up vaping for cost reasons. It had nothing to do with health reasons. I did not see that side of it because I was a smoker and I enjoyed smoking.  I will give the Minister some statistics that have been shown to me. According to a Red C poll, 33% of ex-smokers said they would return to cigarettes if flavours were banned; 73% said the fruit flavours are key to them staying off cigarettes; 49% would source flavours online and outside of the State if the ban goes ahead; 71% believe that a flavour ban would push vapers back to smoking; and 7% support a full ban on flavoured vapes. I hear that and I put it together with the tax revenue that is brought in on both nicotine and vape products. Nicotine products bring in a tax of \u20ac16.2 million per week. According to a D\u00e1il parliamentary answer from last February, vape products will bring in an estimated \u20ac17 million a year. There is a huge difference between \u20ac16.2 million on tobacco products every week and \u20ac17 million a year on vape products. If I were to make an educated guess, I would think that maybe the Government does not mind the fact that a lot of vapers could go back on cigarettes when that kind of revenue is going to come in from tobacco products.  That is the way I am looking at it. You cannot put this under health if you are going to say that people can keep vaping as long as it is just tobacco flavour. There is no difference between strawberry ice or blueberry and tobacco. It is not going to make a difference to your health. If it is going to fall under health, it should be all or nothing. In my lifetime, I can never remember hearing anybody stand up in any of these two Chambers to say that we need to ban cigarettes. That is because they bring massive revenue into this country. The tax on them is huge. I do not see why we need this all of a sudden. If it is to do with children, a law was brought forward last year that vape products cannot be sold to those aged under 18. We need to make sure the law is enforced and make sure the consequences are high enough so that retailers do not serve the under-18s. I feel that, as Senator Conway said, we are going down the route of the nanny state - you can vape, but you can only vape the products that we are telling you that you can vape. You can only use the flavours that we think you should use.  I get it. I can only imagine that the rainbow cloud flavour is probably Skittles and candy floss stuck together. Most adults do not buy rainbow cloud but they will buy a fruit flavour. They will buy strawberry, cola, blueberry or something else because it tastes nicer. I know that sounds awful. If it is just tobacco flavour, many people, including me - I put my hand up - will be back on cigarettes tomorrow. Everybody I met over the summer months has been saying that to me.  I hear Senators and TDs advocating for this on the grounds that so many vape shops are being opened, and they are vibrant, and the colours are drawing children in. Each local authority has a development plan. If it is that much of a problem, why are councillors not going to the local authority to say, for example, that there are ten vape shops open in Newcastle West or Limerick city and we do not need them, or we do not need them to have pink writing all over them, or pictures of sweets and vapes beside each other in the shop? There are rules and plans, and it is for every local authority to enforce those rules. I do not think that is a reason to ban vapes.  I feel that we are going backwards in this country. If these flavours get banned, a huge percentage will go back on cigarettes. I know the Minister of State has stated there is scope in the Bill to reverse this or add flavours.  I am telling the Minister of State that once the flavours are gone and somebody goes back on cigarettes, it will be quite hard to get them back off cigarettes when we say sorry to them, that they can have their strawberry flavour back and that they should go back on the vapes because tobacco is worse for them than is the nicotine. The Minister of State is playing with fire and we need to leave flavours in. If this is all about children going down the wrong route, it is collective punishment and I do not think collective punishment works because vaping will go underground. I can guarantee the Minister of State it will go underground. I have been offered cheaper prices for products which are obviously not being manufactured or sold in the State so I know they are there and the Minister of State will not be able to control them. The Minister of State is going too far with this. I agree 100% that children should not be vaping. If I caught my 16-year-old with a vape in her hand I would probably fall through the floor first and then I would burn every vape that I saw; I would get rid of them. I know it is hard to control. I was the 11-year-old who was down the alley smoking cigarettes; kids do these things. What if the rules are in place and enacted so shops cannot sell vapes? When I was young, I was able to buy cigarettes but as I got older, I was being asked for ID. The consequences need to be severe enough so that vapes are not sold to children and this collective punishment is wrong. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Murnane O'Connor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor)  ): I thank the Members of the Seanad who spoke today. This debate and engagement on this Bill are important and it is about progressing this Bill as far as we can. I will go back to some of the questions that were asked of me.  Senator Costello asked about nicotine pouches at any event in general. I will not talk about a particular event. This law will ban distribution of free nicotine pouches to children but also it will ban retail advertising of them, both in physical locations and online. The definition of \"retail\" includes where products are being distributed for free, so that will be banned. To keep the Senator updated, a proposal to update the EU law in advertising and sponsorship of tobacco and nicotine products is expected before the end of the year. The ban on the sale of tobacco pouches to under-18s includes a ban on giving them our for free. They should not be giving them out for free; that is not right either.  The EU tobacco products directive regulates the quality and safety of e-cigarettes devices so the non-compliant products can be seized and destroyed. That is something we are working on and I know the other Senator mentioned that as well.  EU-wide regulations will make this legislation easier to enforce. We spoke about enforcement and that is important. We are increasing resources for enforcement and I am very mindful of that. As we have brought in a licence every year to sell cigarettes and vapes, that helps with enforcement and being able to monitor this.  Senator Maria Byrne mentioned the big puff disposable vapes. This are regulated at EU level so will be a matter for the next EU directive. We spoke about the directives and I hope that will come in as soon as possible but it is at EU level, just to let the Senator know. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Maria Byrne  That is perfect. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jennifer Murnane O'Connor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Jennifer-Murnane-O'Connor.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor  I know it was a big issue for the Senator.  On the issue of restriction of flavours which would push people back into smoking, research from other countries has shown that users respond to flavour restrictions in different ways. From reports we have received, they include switching to permanent flavours or sourcing flavours, that is, e-liquids elsewhere; quitting vaping; quitting all nicotine products, including tobacco; or switching to other nicotine products, including tobacco. The most relevant evidence to Ireland comes from the Netherlands, which found that its ban on all flavours except tobacco led to overall decreases in both vaping and smoking. We are very mindful of it and a lot of funding has gone into the quit smoking campaign we use. We are constantly putting extra funding into that and tobacco free generation measures are really important. Tobacco is a uniquely lethal product when used as intended. It causes almost 100 deaths and 1,000 hospitalisations each week in Ireland. There is no age at which it becomes safe to consume tobacco so we are not encouraging anyone to go back on cigarettes or to vape.  Our national tobacco control policy, Tobacco Free Ireland, is currently being reviewed. It is important to let everyone know that we are reviewing this. One of the central goals will be to set out a pathway to end the tobacco-related harm in Ireland. My officials and I are considering all measures to fulfil this objective, including a generational ban. That is what we are looking at now. It might take a bit of time but we are considering that possibility. The Minister and I are actively developing our own proposals, which are similar to those in the UK.  This is important. We need to make changes. We all know that vapes are more targeted at our younger people. We need to ensure that we get the information out there through the awareness campaign. We were at a festival recently. I asked that the HSE do a vaping awareness campaign about the harmfulness of vaping in the HSE tent at a huge farming event. I might as well say that it was at the ploughing championships. You have to be careful when you mention something in the House. I had the campaign there and it targeted a lot of young people. Over the past year and a half, more than \u20ac500,000 has gone into awareness campaigns about the harm of vaping. I will continue to do that. We can only say that it is important to get this Bill through as quickly as we can. This is all about the younger generation and older generations, and all of us working together. We must ensure that we give the proper information about the harmfulness and dangers. I thank Senators for their support. It is important that we get this Bill in. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Chris Andrews)  When is it proposed to take Committee Stage? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Maria Byrne  Next Tuesday. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Chris Andrews","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Chris-Andrews.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Acting Chairperson (Senator Chris Andrews)  Is that agreed? Agreed. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 29 September 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionra\u00ed ar 4.37 p.m. agus cuireadh t\u00fas leis ar\u00eds ar 5.30 p.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Sitting suspended at 4.37 p.m. and resumed at 5.30 p.m. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Public Health (Tobacco Products and Nicotine Inhaling Products) (Amendment) Bill 2026: Second Stage"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/seanad\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_14","debateType":"motion","bill":null,"showAs":"Council of the European Union Decision: Motions","counts":{"speechCount":11,"speakerCount":5},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_14","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robbie Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Kelleher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Kelleher.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Garret-Kelleher.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Murphy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Conor-Murphy.S.2025-01-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  The Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, and his officials are very welcome to the House.  We are debating motions regarding approval by Seanad \u00c9ireann of the proposal for a Council decision on the conclusion of the agreement between the European Union and the Republic of Korea on the transfer of passenger name record data for the prevention, detection, investigation and prosecution of terrorist offences and serious crime; and approval by Seanad \u00c9ireann of a proposal for a Council decision on the signing on behalf of the European Union of the agreement between the European Union and the Republic of Korea on the transfer of passenger name record data for the prevention, detection, investigation and prosecution of terrorist offences and serious crime.  We will speak on both together and the two decisions will be taken separately. We are taking Nos. 3 and 4 on the Order Paper. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robbie Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Robbie Gallagher  I move:  That Seanad \u00c9ireann approves the exercise by the State of the option or discretion under Protocol No. 21 on the position of the United Kingdom and Ireland in respect of the area of freedom, security and justice annexed to the Treaty on European Union and to the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, to take part in the adoption and application of the following proposed measure:  Proposal for a Council Decision on the conclusion of the Agreement between the European Union and the Republic of Korea on the transfer of Passenger Name Record (PNR) data for the prevention, detection, investigation and prosecution of terrorist offences and serious crime,  a copy of which was laid before Seanad \u00c9ireann on 24th August, 2026.\u201d "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Justice, Home Affairs and Migration (Deputy Jim O'Callaghan)  I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach very much. I am very pleased to be back in the Seanad. I hope Senators had a good and well-deserved break. I am pleased to be back here working with them again.  I am seeking the approval of Seanad \u00c9ireann to opt in, as the Leas-Chathaoirleach said, to two proposals for Council decisions to sign and conclude an agreement between the European Union and the Republic of Korea, which is known to most of us as South Korea. That is an agreement on the transfer of passenger name record data or PNR data, as it is sometimes called.  The proposals have two main aims, first, relating to the necessity of ensuring public security by means of exchanging PNR data between the European Union and the Republic of Korea and, second, in relation to the protection of privacy and other fundamental rights and freedom of individuals. The proposed Council decisions have a Title V legal basis in the area of police co-operation. Their publication on 24 July 2026 started the three-month window for Ireland to exercise an Article 3 opt-in under Protocol 21, which is annexed to the Lisbon Treaty. That window will end on 24 October 2026 and that is why these motions are being brought before this House and the Lower House this week.  The collection and analysis of PNR data is a widely used law enforcement tool in the European Union and in other countries for the prevention, detection, investigation and prosecution of terrorist offences and serious crime. PNR data is the booking information provided by passengers and collected by air carriers for their own commercial purposes, such as names, dates of travel or travel itineraries. The collection and analysis of PNR data can provide the authorities with important elements, allowing them to detect suspicious travel patterns and identify associates of criminals and terrorists, particularly those previously unknown to law enforcement authorities.  The use of PNR data is governed by the EU PNR directive, which was transposed into national law in Ireland by the European Union (Passenger Name Record Data) Regulations 2018. The Irish passenger information unit within my Department is the body responsible for processing PNR data in Ireland. No legal or practical impediment has been identified by the Attorney General's office precluding Ireland from opting in to these proposals. Senators will recall that the Oireachtas gave approval to an Article 3 opt-in to the negotiation of this agreement in November of last year. Today, I am simply asking Senators to approve Ireland\u2019s participation in the final negotiated agreement once it enters into operation. In the past, we in Ireland have consistently opted in to similar European Union PNR agreements with other third countries, such as Canada, Australia, the United States and the United Kingdom. We have also entered into similar PNR agreements with the Schengen-associated countries of Norway, Iceland and, most recently, Switzerland.  In operational and policy terms, it is considered desirable that Ireland exercises an Article 3 opt-in to these proposals. They are appropriate and would be beneficial to Ireland for the purpose of investigating serious criminal activity. I commend these proposals to the House to consider the exercise of Ireland\u2019s right to opt-in under Article 3 of Protocol 21. I am seeking the approval of Senators for this motion so that Ireland can participate in these Council decisions to sign and conclude the agreement between the European Union and the Republic of Korea. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robbie Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Robbie Gallagher  The Minister is welcome back to the House to discuss these motions. On behalf of the Fianna F\u00e1il group, I am happy to support the motions as outlined by the Minister is his contribution. Co-operation between states is vitally important in our fight against crime. It is a common enemy for us all. I firmly believe that the more co-operation we have, ultimately, the safer our citizens will be. There are two aspects to this, as the Minister outlined, between the EU and South Korea in relation to the exchange of data, which is vitally important. Again, the Minister confirmed that the data is protected fully in relation to that. I am happy to support the motion as outlined by the Minister. I have no further comments to make in relation to this. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Garret Kelleher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Garret-Kelleher.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Garret-Kelleher.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Garret Kelleher  On behalf of the Fine Gael group, I also welcome today's proposal as articulated by Senator Gallagher. International co-operation in the area of crime prevention is of crucial importance and is becoming increasingly important given the international transnational nature of crime in the modern world in which we live. The fact that the Republic of Korea has protocols in place that are similar to the general data protection regulation, GDPR, guidelines with which we would be familiar in relation to the retention and use of sensitive data is a huge plus. Co-operation in this regard can only be positive and I welcome the proposal to participate. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Murphy.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Conor-Murphy.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Conor Murphy  Cuirim f\u00e1ilte roimh an Aire. On behalf of Sinn F\u00e9in, we will also be supporting the motion concerning this proposition that is in front of us today. The purpose of sharing this information is an important one. As the Minister said, it does assist in the prevention and prosecution of serious crime. We know that serious and organised crime does not stop at national borders and drug trafficking, human trafficking and other forms of organised crime activity operate internationally. Effective international co-operation between law enforcement authorities is therefore essential and the appropriate sharing of passenger information can play an important role in that co-operation.  We have previously supported Ireland participating in PNR agreements between the European Union and a number of other states. We also supported Ireland opting in to the negotiations for this agreement with Korea when that matter came in front of the Oireachtas in November 2025. For that reason, we are supporting the motion. However, our support comes with some important caveats that need to be put on the record. First, sharing of passenger information must always be balanced against fundamental rights and freedoms of individuals and where personal information is being collected, retained and shared internationally, there must be strong safeguards. The holding and use of this data must be necessary, proportionate and subject to strict limitations. Second, we need to be careful about an increasing tendency towards Ireland opting into measures under Article 3 of Protocol 21. Protocol 21 gives Ireland important protections in the areas of freedom, security and justice and allows Ireland to make decisions on participation based on our own national interests. While an Article 3 opt-in may be appropriate in this particular case, that should not automatically become the approach taken to every proposal.  Article 4 remains available to Ireland and, therefore, there may be circumstances where it is more appropriate to wait until the final shape of a proposal is known before deciding whether participation is in Ireland\u2019s interests. Ireland\u2019s national interests must remain central to those decisions.  Finally, there is a practical issue that deserves further consideration. Ireland is an island nation, and a considerable number of people enter and leave the State by ferry as well as air. The PNR data is considered an important tool in preventing and investigating terrorism, drug trafficking, human trafficking and other serious crimes. There is an obvious question as to why similar provisions do not apply to ferry passengers. We should ensure that we are not creating an obvious gap where somebody who seeks to avoid the PNR system can simply choose to travel by ferry rather than by air.  We will be supporting the motion. International co-operation and appropriate information sharing are important tools in tackling serious organised crime, but that co-operation must always be accompanied by strong safeguards for privacy and fundamental rights. Ireland must retain the ability provided under Protocol 21 to make decisions based on our own national interests. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jim O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jim-O'Callaghan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jim O'Callaghan  I thank Senators Gallagher, Kelleher and Murphy for their support and, indeed, the support of their parties. I am pleased to see that there is broad agreement across the House that this PNR data regime is important for the purpose of investigating serious crime and terrorist activity. One of the things that is most notable about crime in the past decade or 20 years is that it has become an extraordinarily international business. It is an activity that knows no jurisdiction or no boundaries. People who want to commit serious criminal activity do so by seeking to undermine the borders and the rules we have in different jurisdictions. It is very important that, as a country and as part of the European Union, we put in place measures that enable co-operation not just between countries within the European Union, but also on a broader scale so that we can combat collectively the attempts of serious criminals to get involved in and effect serious criminal activity.  I note the caveats that Senator Murphy has set out. Obviously, it is important that while we are sharing information, we also protect fundamental rights. I believe that is provided for in the PNR agreements. It is also the case that I will not recommend that we opt in to a Protocol 21 proposal unless I think it is in Ireland\u2019s best interest. I think we are all agreed here that this is in Ireland\u2019s best interest. If there is a proposal that comes under Protocol 21 that I do not believe is in Ireland\u2019s best interest, I will not opt in to it, and that has happened in the past.  In terms of how Ireland\u2019s interest is represented, it is through democracy - it is through the Members of this House and D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann. They decide whether Ireland should opt in to Protocol 21 opt-ins. That is the democratic protection we have as a result of the Protocol 21 procedure that is available under the Lisbon treaty.  I again thank Senators and colleagues for their contributions. I very much appreciate their support. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robbie Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Robbie Gallagher  I move:  That Seanad \u00c9ireann approves the exercise by the State of the option or discretion under Protocol No. 21 on the position of the United Kingdom and Ireland in respect of the area of freedom, security and justice annexed to the Treaty on European Union and to the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, to take part in the adoption and application of the following proposed measure:  Proposal for a Council Decision on the signing of the Agreement between the European Union and the Republic of Korea on the transfer of Passenger Name Record (PNR) data for the prevention, detection, investigation and prosecution of terrorist offences and serious crime,  a copy of which was laid before Seanad \u00c9ireann on 24th August, 2026. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  When is it proposed to sit again? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robbie Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Robbie-Gallagher.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Robbie Gallagher  At 10.30 a.m tomorrow morning. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Maria Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Maria-Byrne.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  Is that agreed? Agreed. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an Seanad ar athl\u00f3 ar 5.45 p.m. go dt\u00ed 10.30 a.m., D\u00e9 C\u00e9adaoin, an 23 Me\u00e1n F\u00f3mhair 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The Seanad adjourned at 5.45 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 23 September 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Council of the European Union Decision: Motions"}]}}]},"contextDate":"2026-09-22"},{"debateRecord":{"house":{"showAs":"Select Committee on Arts, Media, Communications, Culture and Sport","committeeCode":"select_committee_on_arts_media_communications_culture_and_sport","houseCode":"dail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/committee\/dail\/34\/select_committee_on_arts_media_communications_culture_and_sport","chamberType":"committee","houseNo":"34"},"chamber":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/def\/committee","showAs":"Select Committee on Arts, Media, Communications, Culture and Sport"},"lastUpdated":"2026-09-24T12:31:46+00:00","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/select_committee_on_arts_media_communications_culture_and_sport\/2026-09-22\/debate\/main","formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/select_committee_on_arts_media_communications_culture_and_sport\/2026-09-22\/debate\/mul@\/main.xml"},"pdf":null},"date":"2026-09-22","counts":{"contributorCount":9,"divisionCount":1,"debateSectionCount":2,"questionCount":0,"billCount":1},"debateType":"debate","debateSections":[{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/select_committee_on_arts_media_communications_culture_and_sport\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_2","debateType":"debate","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/54","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/54\/dail\/3","houseCode":"dail","stage":"3","isBillStage":true,"showAs":"Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2026: Committee Stage (D\u00e1il)"}},"showAs":"Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2026: Committee Stage","counts":{"speechCount":201,"speakerCount":6},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Brennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Brian-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Carrigy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I welcome the Minister and his officials to the meeting. No apologies have been received. This meeting has been convened on the Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2026 on Committee Stage. It is important to note that in order to participate in a division in committee, members must be physically present. They cannot vote from a remote location. We will now proceed to consideration of the Bill. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 1"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Amendment No. 1 in the name of Deputy Joanna Byrne has been ruled out of order as a substantial charge on revenue. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment No. 1 not moved."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 1 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sections 2 and 3 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 4"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Amendments Nos. 2 and 17 are related and may be discussed together. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  I move amendment No. 2:  In page 7, between lines 4 and 5, to insert the following:  \"(c) by the insertion of the following after \"section 89(1)\" in the definition of \"director general\":  \u201c, and a director general shall be referred to only by the Irish language title of \" ardsti\u00farth\u00f3ir \" by the corporation\",\".  These amendments are self-explanatory. They are based on the committee's pre-legislative scrutiny report, recommendation 5 of which is to have the director general, as currently known, to be known as the ardsti\u00farth\u00f3ir in the future. It is quite self-explanatory. I do not intend to delay the meeting, but it would be in line with Government policy across State appointments that titles should be as Gaeilge where possible. This is one of those instances where we can see that and where we can put it into legislation. It captures that. Sin \u00e9. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Culture, Communications and Sport (Deputy Patrick O'Donovan)  I thank all the Deputies for all their amendments.  The pre-legislative scrutiny for the committee made a wider recommendation that both ciste na me\u00e1n and director general, or ardsti\u00farth\u00f3ir, should be used in the Irish language only. I considered the recommendations carefully. I agreed with the reasoning of the committee in respect of ciste na me\u00e1n. The broadcasting fund is being renamed in the Bill and it is appropriate that ciste na me\u00e1n should be used. The term \"media fund\" has not yet entered common usage and given the focus of the fund is on the national sector, it will not be used in an international forum or forums.  In contrast, the director general of RT\u00c9 has been referred to in the English language since 1960 and the amendment proposed by the Deputies would prevent use of the English language title, both nationally and internationally. In my view, this would serve to cause confusion, not only at home but abroad as well, in the long usage of the English title and would not advance the everyday use of the Irish language. It would also present difficulties in international forums in circumstances where titles are usually translated to the language in which the meeting is conducted. For those reasons, I do not propose to accept the amendments. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Is Deputy \u00d3 Snodaigh pressing the amendment? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  I will respond. The idea is that the use of Irish titles would normalise the use of the title and we have to start somewhere. Just because something has been wrongly titled \"director general\" in the past, or people have not been encouraged to use the Irish language version of it, does not mean that we should not start here. If the Minister wants to delay it for a number of years, or that we use both titles at the same time for a duration, that might be better. It would advance the use of the Irish language. International forums do not have a problem when it is a different language. Why should it be so with the Irish language? I will be pressing the amendment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  I support amendments Nos. 2 and 17. I agree with the rationale, presented by Deputy \u00d3 Snodaigh, on the international forums. In fact, it is quite welcome when we share our culture, heritage and Irish language. Having them run parallel for a number of years will allow for that transition period. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  On the sentiments expressed by Deputy \u00d3 Snodaigh, and the Deputy will be aware I am a former Minister of State for the Gaeltacht, we have an issue, which has been relayed to me at home and abroad, with regard to the name \"Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n\". I am every bit as much a supporter and proponent of the Irish language as Deputy \u00d3 Snodaigh is, but it creates difficulties in an international context, for instance, with regard to the regulatory environment that we are asking Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n to operate in. It has established legal title because it is a new agency but I think the Deputy will accept it leads to a bit of confusion.  The director general of RT\u00c9 is around now for a long time. That title is well established and rather than adding to it in legislation, it is open to the DG of RT\u00c9, in the use of headed paper, business cards or anything of that nature, to use the Irish language if he sees fit. However, putting it into legislation and tying that person's title, considering that the title has been well-established since 1960, could cause us some difficulties. I understand the sentiment of what the Deputy is trying to do but I think he will appreciate the precedent that has been established here. If RT\u00c9 were being established today, I would have no problem whatsoever in saying that it must be \"the ardsti\u00farth\u00f3ir\". "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  The argument does not make sense. I will not delay on it, but it is not open to State bodies to use whatever headed paper they please at this stage. The purpose of Acht na dTeangacha Oifigi\u00fala was to change the branding when the opportunity arose. That was the way it was presented so that you did not go around changing all the signposts and everything else, but only when the opportunity arose.  This is one of the instances where an opportunity has arisen to indicate properly that the director general is in effect the ardsti\u00farth\u00f3ir. The headed paper should indicate that anyway, or should be bilingual at the very least. The title of any organisation set up by the State is to be in the Irish language in the future. That is why Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n is called \"Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n\". We have already moved. One of the consequences of that is that the titles of positions within those organisations are as Gaeilge. I have not come across an instance where there have been difficulties. Maybe the Minister could cite whether there are problems internationally with Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n not being recognised as Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  It has been relayed to me that in meetings that there is no difficulty with the words \"Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n\" if there is a strapline or addendum such as the \"Irish media commission\" or something of that nature. There are two official languages in Ireland, constitutionally. When we have a regulator that does not just have a responsibility to a domestic audience but has an international audience as well, it helps - especially for multinational regulation - if we make sure we do not use a prohibitive bar for people to engage with that regulator. I do not think anybody would really want that. I do not have a difficulty with the sentiments that are being expressed but unfortunately I cannot accept the amendments. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Amendments Nos. 3, 8, 16, and 20 to 22, inclusive, are related and may be discussed together. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  I move amendment No. 3:  In page 7, between lines 32 and 33, to insert the following:  \u201c \u2018competent in the Irish language\u2019 means an ability in the Irish language defined and assessed as equivalent to level B2 or higher under the Common European Framework of Reference for Languages;\u201d.  Again, these amendments relate to the Irish-language recommendations from the pre-legislative scrutiny report. Amendment No. 3, which is based on committee recommendation No. 4, seeks to define being \"competent in the Irish language\" as having \"an ability in the Irish language defined and assessed as equivalent to level B2 or higher under the Common European Framework of Reference for Languages\u201d. According to the Government's national plan for Irish-language public service, level B2 in the Teastas Eorpach na Gaeilge is the minimum level at which a person would be comfortable fulfilling their duties through the medium of Irish and providing a level of service that the customer and the public expect. It suggests that level C1 under the Common European Framework of Reference for Languages would be suitable as a requirement for more senior roles through Irish. When we are talking about senior roles responsible for Irish-language media, we are talking not only about TG4 but also about RT\u00c9 as a bilingual broadcaster. We must not forget that Raidi\u00f3 na Gaeltachta falls under that as well. We believe those officials should be able to view the material they broadcast and engage in a discussion on strategy, policy and human resources in the language their workers are using. We had a debate on whether Irish should be a required skill for certain board and committee positions. We believe that level B2, at a minimum, should be required to reflect the specific role of RT\u00c9, and TG4 in particular. I take it as a given. I will come back to that.  Amendment No. 8 requires that \"No fewer than 20 per cent of the members of a review committee shall be competent in the Irish language\". Again, that reflects a report recommendation from this committee. It also reflects the 20% target under the Official Languages Act for recruitment to public service bodies. We should be reflecting that in State boards and State commissions, recognising that public service media has a particular responsibility in regard to both the nationwide Irish-language community but also specifically to the Gaeltacht.  Amendment No. 16, which seeks to insert \u201cand, in the case of at least 50 percent of the members of the board of RT\u00c9, to the board of RT\u00c9\", reflects committee recommendation No. 21, which is that \"competence in the Irish language, defined and assessed as equivalent to level B2 or higher ... must be a requirement for the entire membership of the Board of Irish Language broadcaster TG4\". The purpose of this is to ensure that a proportion of the RT\u00c9 board can fulfil its full duties through the Irish language. The committee also recommended that \"a proportion of the Board of RT\u00c9 [50 per cent] would also have\" a competency in the Irish language. Again, that would allow the board to properly discuss and interrogate the strategies and proposals in relation to the Irish language. In particular, this is a recognition of the Irish-language radio service that RT\u00c9 has.  Amendment No. 20, which also arises from a recommendation of the committee, proposes the establishment of \"an additional audience council specifically for the Raidi\u00f3 na Gaeltachta service whose members shall all be competent in the Irish language and able to conduct the business of the audience council in that language and which shall include at least one member from each of the districts identified\" as a Gaeltacht area. Again, this is based on one of our recommendations. Raidi\u00f3 na Gaeltachta is distinct and its audience is distinct from RT\u00c9's audiences given that it is in the main, fully through the Irish language and has a specific role in relation to the Gaeltacht communities. It would be a bit odd to have a council for an audience body that does not have fluency to discuss what is happening on their radio channel in that language. At the moment any audience surveys are carried out through RT\u00c9 itself.  The last two amendments in this grouping are in the name of Deputy Gibney. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  My amendments are very complementary to Deputy \u00d3 Snodaigh's amendments. Amendment No. 21 mandates that the RT\u00c9 audience council has \"at least 3 members\" who are competent in the Irish language. This would ensure there are council members who can actually understand the Irish-language content they are there to oversee, along with overseeing RT\u00c9's Irish-language and general public service remit through that lens. I understand that there is usually around this number who have Irish as it stands, but we believe that representation should be protected in legislation.  Amendment No. 22 similarly speaks to the TG4 audience council members. This legislation tries to reduce the number who should have Irish from \"all\" to at least ten of the 15 members. This could leave the TG4 audience council potentially having to conduct its business through English, which would be unfortunate. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  Deputies \u00d3 Snodaigh and Byrne have proposed amendment No. 3, which proposes to prescribe a fixed definition of \"competent in the Irish language\" in law. In contrast, the approach adopted in the Bill is that \"the Minister may, having regard to the system of standards known as the Common European Framework of Reference for Languages, after consultation with the Minister for Rural and Community Development and the Gaeltacht, prescribe the level of competence in the Irish language required\". This is based on the approach taken in the \u00dadar\u00e1s na Gaeltachta (Amendment) Act 2026, in respect of appointments of the boards of an t-\u00fadar\u00e1s. Deputy \u00d3 Snodaigh and I debated this at length in this very room. It is appropriate to align our approach to two of our largest Irish-language bodies. Accordingly, I do not intend to accept the amendment.  Section 12 provides that Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n may appoint \"a committee to assist and advise\" it in the conduct of the three-yearly appraisal and annual review of the performance and funding of RT\u00c9 and TG4, and the three-year review of public service content. Amendment No. 8, proposed by Deputies \u00d3 Snodaigh and Byrne, would require that no fewer than 20% of the membership of such a committee would be competent in the Irish language and that the membership would include one person from a Gaeltacht area. On foot of recommendations from the committee during pre-legislative scrutiny, the Bill as published includes one of the criteria for appointment as having experience or expertise in \"the development of the Irish language or Gaeltacht affairs\". This reflects the intention that the committees will be primarily chosen for their expertise rather than being representative bodies. Accordingly, I consider that amendment No. 8, which provides for choosing people in respect of criteria other than expertise or experience, would be overly restrictive for a committee.  Amendment No. 16 proposed by Deputies \u00d3 Snodaigh and Byrne provides that 50% of the members of the RT\u00c9 board should be competent in the Irish language. Section 27 provides for reforms to the criteria of RT\u00c9 and TG4 board membership, including in line with the recommendations of the expert advisory committee on governance and culture that all members should have experience and expertise \"relevant to the oversight of an organisation of the size and range of activities and level of complexity of RT\u00c9 or TG4\". Criteria for membership include expertise in matters pertaining to the development of the Irish language and Gaeltacht affairs. Indeed experience of matters relating to the Irish language and Gaeltacht affairs more generally is one of the areas the chairperson of the RT\u00c9 board has raised as needing to be addressed with me and formed part of my request to the committee with regard to vacancies on the board of RT\u00c9. Given the criteria regarding board membership already in place, I do not accept that we should introduce specific Irish-language requirements for the board. The chairperson of the board should continue to have flexibility in identifying desired board skill sets that will attract the broadest range of suitable candidates when vacancies arise.  Amendment No. 20 proposed by Deputies \u00d3 Snodaigh and Byrne would require the establishment of an audience council solely for Raidi\u00f3 na Gaeltachta with representatives from each Gaeltacht area. I recognise that Raidi\u00f3 na Gaeltachta offers a service that is distinct from other RT\u00c9 services but however vital a service it provides, it is not wise to create an audience council for a specific service provided by RT\u00c9 or TG4 given the precedent it would set that each service would then have its own audience council. In light of the recommendations of the committee arising from pre-legislative scrutiny, section 38 specifically requires the audience councils of RT\u00c9 and TG4 to have regard to the Irish language and the needs of the members of Gaeltacht communities and I trust that the audience council of RT\u00c9 will be cognisant of this duty and have particular regard to Raidi\u00f3 na Gaeltachta. For that reason, I do not propose to accept the amendment.  Amendment No. 21 proposed by Deputy Gibney would require that at least three members of the RT\u00c9 audience council should be competent in the Irish language. We should not be overly prescriptive or impose a quota in respect of RT\u00c9. As I set out, there are specific duties on the audience council regarding the Irish language. There is also a requirement on Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n in appointing audience council members to ensure that the membership reflects the diversity of the people of the island of Ireland and I expect that this should be sufficient to ensure that a number of members of the RT\u00c9 council have an appropriate level of Irish.  Amendment No. 22 proposed by Deputies \u00d3 Snodaigh, Byrne and Gibney would require that all members of the TG4 audience council rather than ten out of the 15 members are required to be competent in the Irish language. I took on board the recommendations of the committee in pre-legislative scrutiny and the Bill now provides that a minimum of five out of the 15 members of the TG4 audience council must have expertise in Gaeltacht affairs or experience of Gaeltacht communities. It may seem strange that up to five of the TG4 audience council members will not necessarily need to meet the requisite level of competence in the Irish language required of the other members. However, I am conscious of the important role that TG4 plays in Irish-language learning both in its programming and the school system through Foghlaim TG4. Part of TG4's audience will not necessarily be competent in the Irish language. This is very clear on a Sunday afternoon when most of the people who are watching TG4 probably cannot speak Irish but are watching matches, which is a good thing because at least they are being exposed to the Irish language. It is important that we create the possibility that they may be represented as they may bring an interesting perspective to the audience council. At the same time, it is not the intention of the Bill that meetings or the work of the TG4 audience council should be carried out tr\u00ed mhe\u00e1n an Bh\u00e9arla. I would expect that meetings continue to take place tr\u00ed mhe\u00e1n na Gaeilge whatever provision is made for those without a sufficient level to participate. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  I do not know where to start on that. I will go to the last point. There is no point in having somebody on the audience council if he or she does not understand what is going on around him or her or if he or she cannot even understand the radio channel in the case of Raidi\u00f3 na Gaeltachta or has never listened to it. That seems to have been a view in the past. People took Raidi\u00f3 na Gaeltachta, thought \"That's there\" and let it away with it in some ways. It looks after itself. It is good news that the meetings of the audience councils and the like will continue through Irish but anybody who has attended meetings knows of ones in which he or she is not fully engaged unless there is a good translation service, which comes at a cost. It means that this person is not as engaged as he or she as should be. There is a distinct radio station and a distinct audience - the Minister is correct in the answers he has given - whether it is Raidi\u00f3 na Gaeltachta or TG4. He is correct that quite a lot of the audience of TG4 at certain times of the weekend, for example, arts, music or sports, are attracted because of the content rather than the Irish language. One focus of TG4 was to expose people more and more to the Irish language. That is not to say that those with Irish are not aware of that. We appreciate that and encourage it. In the case of TG4 and Raidi\u00f3 na Gaeltachta, I still believe that the various boards and audience councils should be fully conversant in the Irish language. Level 2B is the level that has been selected with regard to housing and other aspects so it is not as if I picked it out of the sky and said that this is the appropriate level. Conradh na Gaeilge, those who have lobbied the Minister in the past and others accept that as the standard at which people can converse and do their business at a competent level. It is not the highest level; there is no such thing. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  I echo a lot of what Deputy \u00d3 Snodaigh is saying. I will speak to amendment No. 21, which is on the RT\u00c9 audience council. We have very positive representation at the moment. All we are trying to do is copper-fasten that with a legislative mandate. RT\u00c9 has a responsibility under the public sector remit to serve the Irish-speaking community and to support the language and the Gaeltachta and we all know that RT\u00c9 has consistently struggled to adequately fulfil this remit. RT\u00c9's audience council already has around this number of people with Irish and this would simply copper-fasten it and make sure that the emphasis on fulfilling RT\u00c9's remit on the Irish language is met.  I have been the chair of a commission, which is essentially a State board, and part of our mandate involved being representative of the population. The Minister said that the mandate to be representative of the population should naturally fill these roles but I can tell him that having been chair of that commission, nobody was fluent in the Irish language so it is not to be assumed that this would in and of itself fulfil the competency or requirement we are suggesting. This is something that exists and we should recognise that is positive and that RT\u00c9 currently has it and simply make it part of the legislation.  Speaking to amendment No. 22, I am quite gobsmacked that the possibility exists that part of a meeting would have to be conducted as B\u00e9arla and if not, I assume TG4 would now have to bear the cost of interpreters in its audience council meetings and business because this Bill would essentially mean that the Irish-language broadcaster would have to conduct the business of its audience council through English or else make appropriate measures available for five potential members who do not have enough proficiency to participate in that meeting. If we cannot have an audience council of our Irish-language broadcaster conducting its business in Irish, it is a poor sign for the future of the language and the current ability to protect what little space there is for it in our institutions. We should be bolstering the presence of Irish speakers and their experiences in our institutions not rowing back. If this is the case, I want to see clarity on who is expected to bear that cost. Is it going to be TG4 that now has to pay for translators, interpreters and all the necessary administration around that for the conduct of its business? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  Tuigim c\u00e9 chomh t\u00e1bhachtach at\u00e1 an pointe sin faoin gcaighde\u00e1n agus an m\u00e9id Gaeilge at\u00e1 in \u00fas\u00e1id i nd\u00edosp\u00f3ireachta\u00ed bhoird RT\u00c9 agus TG4. T\u00e1 s\u00e9 sin an-t\u00e1bhachtach n\u00ed hamh\u00e1in don bhord agus do lucht \u00e9isteachta agus lucht f\u00e9achana TG4 agus Raidi\u00f3 Teilif\u00eds \u00c9ireann, ach d'eagra\u00edocht eile - c\u00e9 nach bhfuil s\u00e9 r\u00e9itithe go dt\u00ed seo - is \u00e9 sin, Oifig an Choimisin\u00e9ara Teanga.  T\u00e1 r\u00f3l an-t\u00e1bhachtach ag an gCoimisin\u00e9ir Teanga maidir leis na heagra\u00edochta\u00ed sna Gaeltachta\u00ed, mar shampla \u00dadar\u00e1s na Gaeltachta, TG4, RT\u00c9 agus an Roinn, le hiad a choime\u00e1d agus a chur in i\u00fal c\u00e9 chomh t\u00e1bhachtach agus trom a bhfuil an m\u00e9id Gaeilge at\u00e1 in \u00fas\u00e1id sa Roinn, in RT\u00c9 agus i TG4. T\u00e1 s\u00e9 an-t\u00e1bhachtach freisin do na daoine nach bhfuil Gaeilge acu bheith in ann r\u00f3l a ghlacadh i TG4 agus in RT\u00c9. Mar a d\u00fairt m\u00e9, ar an Domhnach, nuair a bh\u00edonn na cluich\u00ed iom\u00e1na\u00edochta agus peile ar si\u00fal, b\u00edonn daoine nach bhfuil ach beag\u00e1n Gaeilge acu sa lucht \u00e9isteachta agus f\u00e9achana. T\u00e1 s\u00e9 t\u00e1bhachtach an lucht f\u00e9achana agus an lucht \u00e9isteachta a fh\u00e1s ach ar an l\u00e1mh eile, c\u00e9 go bhfuil daoine a bhfuil suim acu taca\u00edocht a thabhairt do na comhlachta\u00ed agus i dtodhcha\u00ed na comhlachta\u00ed, b\u2019fh\u00e9idir nach bhfuil siad in ann p\u00e1irt a ghlacadh iontu toisc nach bhfuil an m\u00e9id Gaeilge acu at\u00e1 ag teast\u00e1il le p\u00e1irt a ghlacadh i nd\u00edosp\u00f3ireachta\u00ed.  I do not want to exclude anybody. That is very important. Ireland is a very diverse place. If somebody has issues with regard to proficiency in the Irish language but is trying to raise their children tr\u00ed mhe\u00e1n na Gaeilge and is put on the RT\u00c9 or TG4 audience council, I would see that as something representative of the future rather than the past where we had an attitude where if a person did not have a specific proficiency, he or she was excluded from even the discussion around the Irish language. T\u00e1 athbheochan na Gaeilge ag tarl\u00faint faoi l\u00e1thair, n\u00ed hamh\u00e1in sna Gaelscoileanna agus na Gaelchol\u00e1ist\u00ed ach freisin ar an idirl\u00edon, ar an teilif\u00eds, ar an raidi\u00f3 agus sna me\u00e1in cumars\u00e1ide. T\u00e1 s\u00e9 an-t\u00e1bhachtach go bhfuil seans ag na daoine a bhfuil suim acu an Ghaeilge a chur chun cinn r\u00f3l a choime\u00e1d sna comhlachta\u00ed seo. They might not have proficiency but they might have a big interest in putting forward the Irish language and making sure it is in a far better state than it was when we inherited it. T\u00e1 s\u00e9 sin an-t\u00e1bhachtach agus is rud \u00e9 gur f\u00e9idir linn go l\u00e9ir a cheili\u00faradh - that somebody is able to get on the board and be welcome and not feel inhibited or like an outsider m\u00e1 t\u00e1 easpa muin\u00edn acu because they have a lack of proficiency in the Irish language. Is r\u00f3l an-t\u00e1bhachtach \u00e9 sin. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I am not restricting any conversations on the Bill. We can go on for months if we want but we have this room until 8.25 p.m. and at that stage we will be concluding. We will not be able to meet again next week; it will be two or three weeks before that happens. I am also conscious that the clerk to the committee has done back-to-back meetings, which is six hours. I want to flag that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  The Minister\u2019s comments are very welcome. I too recognise the importance of the Irish language, and I also recognise the efforts that the Irish language-speaking community makes to include those of us who do not speak Irish as proficiently. That stands. However, this is a very separate issue for me, particularly around the audience council because from my experience, while that welcome is extended and appreciation is there for those of us who are trying to learn and be proficient enough to engage in conversation with people, to do business as an audience council in Irish should not be hampered. That is the difference for me. Extending to newer communities and those of us who do not have Irish is not in any way jeopardised by maintaining within the audience council Irish language as a working language. Unfortunately, these measures do exactly that. That is what they jeopardise. For the people I have worked with, for example, in my own career who are native Irish speakers, it is a much more comfortable place to be to speak in our own language. That is the issue we are proposing here. These are people who are doing huge amounts of work to maintain, preserve and promote our language, and they should be afforded the opportunity to do their business in their own tongue. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  I contend that the Deputy\u2019s amendment will do 180 degrees the opposite. It will make it impossible for anybody who does not have a particular standard that she sets in the language to be part of that. It will exclude new Irish communities. I find it ironic that the Social Democrats would be so exclusionary of the new Irish and people who are trying to learn Irish that they would set such a high bar for an audience council of people who might like the Irish language but do not have a clue how to speak it. This would be a very regressive step and I am surprised the Deputy would attempt to exclude the new Irish communities and people who have chosen to make Ireland their home, as well as those in the Irish population who have lost an Ghaeilge a bh\u00ed acu nuair a bh\u00ed siad sa bhunscoil. There are people who have lost it but would like to relearn it and this excludes them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  T\u00e1 c\u00fapla rud le r\u00e1 agam. T\u00e1 s\u00e9 seo ar fad beag\u00e1n \u00e1if\u00e9iseach. The argument the Minister has just made is silly. In fact, it is insulting to many in the new communities who are quite fluent in the Irish language because they do not have a hang-up and many of them learn languages a lot quicker than we have over the years. I am not one of those who learned a language. With my two languages, I grew up with them. I find it difficult to learn other languages, and I have tried. This is not exclusionary; this is the exact opposite. This is to ensure that the services TG4, Raidi\u00f3 na Gaeltachta and RT\u00c9 present are assessed by an audience council that is confident it can do its business through the language of those stations, whether it is Raidi\u00f3 na Gaeltachta or TG4.  I was one of those who sat on the interview panel for the past two appointments of this committee in relation to TG4. We interviewed 16 or 17 people, all of the highest skill level. Any board in the country would be delighted to have most of them onboard, such is their skill level. All of them have proficiency in the Irish language. The board could recommend two for the Minister to appoint. We will do the same, and I presume the nominees will have the same level of expertise because it is a very specific role. There are people with the proficiency already available in some ways, who could play an additional role in terms of the Irish language.  We had the ridiculous situation - and thankfully, this has not been the case of late, mainly because \u00dadar\u00e1s na Gaeltachta was not there - where some elected members of \u00dadaras na Gaeltachta could not speak Irish proficiently. That was an insult to all of those who sat on Gaeltacht panels and were elected. The idea is that if a person is appointed to any of these boards, he or she should be able to carry out his or her business in the language of that service. That is not to exclude those who do not have the language. There is nothing stopping an audience council deciding to set up a subcommittee to deal with those who do not have the Irish----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  Like a B panel? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  It would not be a B panel. It would be a specific panel to look at sports and the volume of sports and how we get those----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  Would it be good enough but not good enough? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  No, it would be making a report. Every other institution has the ability to have----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  Would it be an exclusionary panel? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  It is not exclusionary. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  It absolutely is. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  It is not. It would be just as valued and its report would be dealt with. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  It is a very unfair comparison to compare TG4 to \u00dadar\u00e1s na Gaeltachta. \u00dadar\u00e1s na Gaeltachta does not have a national remit; TG4 does. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  Raidi\u00f3 na Gaeltachta does not have a national remit. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  Raidi\u00f3 na Gaeltachta is listened to in houses in County Louth and County Dublin as much as it is in the Gaeltacht. To say it only has a Gaeltacht remit is doing Raidi\u00f3 na Gaeltachta a big disservice. Raidi\u00f3 na Gaeltachta would not take too kindly to the Deputy saying it is a Gaeltacht service. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  Its title is Raidi\u00f3 na Gaeltachta. I would love to have a Gaeltacht here in the city and elsewhere.  We have a Gaeltacht in Belfast but it is not recognised in legislation as a Gaeltacht. Raidi\u00f3 na Gaeltachta was set up originally by Cumann Chearta Sibhialta na Gaeltachta, which specifically asked for a radio station to service those who were being ignored by those in RT\u00c9 who carried out all of their business through English at the time. If the Minister wants a history lesson, I can go through it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  I do not need a history lesson. I am well able to teach history too. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Can we stick to the amendments, please? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  We should not repeat the mistakes of the past. That is what I am saying. We can accommodate those who do not have the proficiency. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  On a B list. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  On whatever list the Minister wants, but their expertise---- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  On a discriminatory list. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  In the GAA, there are people who provide huge service to teams who cannot kick a ball or play hurling. They are there day in, day out. They do not expect to be on the management team if they do not understand how---- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  I do not expect the people in the audience of TG4 to be on some sort of B list because they cannot speak the language, yet the Deputy wants to----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Minister, please. Deputy Brennan is next. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Brennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Brian-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Brian Brennan  I feel the keyword here is that we are excluding people. I love my two hours every Sunday afternoon watching the GAA. Why cannot someone like me, or someone from a different country who has come here, have a say in how it operates? Why are we excluding them? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  Nobody said they could not. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  Deputy \u00d3 Snodaigh just wants them on a B list. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Brennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Brian-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Brian Brennan  Deputy \u00d3 Snodaigh wants to put them on a different list. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  No. A subcommittee is part of the committee. They are answerable to the committee. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Brennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Brian-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Brian Brennan  Why is the Deputy excluding the likes of me from a committee? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  Because it is an Irish-language station and the standard should be set on the Irish language. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Brennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Brian-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Brian Brennan  The Deputy is excluding. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  It currently operates in Irish. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  There is no suggestion that the committee would not operate in Irish. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  I take offence at the comments of the Minister that I am trying to be exclusionary. I am trying to do exactly the opposite. I agree with Deputy \u00d3 Snodaigh that it is offensive to suggest that people cannot develop the level of proficiency who are passionate about the Irish language and want to contribute to the audience council. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  You just do not want them on it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  One second, please. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  We have an audience council currently for TG4 that operates as Gaeilge, and we are putting forward measures in this legislation which will mean they will have to change their operational business towards operating as B\u00e9arla. To me that is just regressive. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  They do not have to do that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  They will have to do that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  Where does it say that in the Bill? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  If there are five people who do not have proficiency----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  I have the Bill here in front of me and I do not see that in the Bill. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  I have sat on meetings and understand how it runs when there are people who do not have proficiency. Measures have to be provided by which they can participate in the meeting, otherwise they are not able to participate effectively. It will slow down the entire business of the committee. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  Rather than include them, Deputies Gibney and \u00d3 Snodaigh want to lock them out and put them on a B list. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  He will not let me speak, Chair. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  That is the new Social Democrats mantra for promotion of the Irish language, is it? You can come in, all right, but you will go on a B list. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Colleagues, we need to call a halt to this type of behaviour. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  It is not doing any good to the Irish language. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  It is not doing any good to anyone. It is definitely not doing any good to us who have been sitting here for many hours already today. How stands the amendment? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  It is being pressed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  I move amendment No. 4:  In page 8, after line 37, to insert the following:  \u201c(2) Section 2 of the Principal Act is amended by the insertion of the following new subsection after subsection (3):  \u201c(4) Any reference in this Act to the publication of a strategy or report, or to the holding of a consultation, shall be interpreted to mean in the Irish language or in both official languages.\u201d.\u201d  Again, this amendment is based on the joint Oireachtas committee's pre-legislative scrutiny report recommendations, which are all-party recommendations in many ways. We scrutinised this Bill and recommended that clarity be provided in the Bill on whether a strategy or report that is to be published, or a consultation which is to take place, shall be in the Irish language or in both official languages. It is self-explanatory. This amendment will ensure that Irish speakers will be encouraged to take part in the consultation by virtue of the fact that the information on those consultations or in the reports will be available to them in their own language in the media landscape. The amendment provides that all of this work would be carried out bilingually. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  I thank Deputies \u00d3 Snodaigh and Joanna Byrne for their amendment. There are aspects of this I agree with. I intend to address it on Committee Stage in the Seanad. Obviously, I will have to take those amendments to the Government. Rather than the Deputies pressing this one, we might have an opportunity to see if it can be dealt with differently. As the Deputies know, section 10 of the Official Languages Act 2003, as amended, sets out categories of documents that must be published in both languages by public bodies. These are major public policy proposals, any annual report, any audited account or financial statement, and any statement of strategy. Accordingly, section 10 of the 2003 Act would cover a number of the documents set out in the Broadcasting Act 2009. It would not cover consultations or reports which are not major policy proposals.  In this context, it is important to acknowledge that Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n's Irish-language website includes Irish-language versions of its public-facing reports and regulatory codes such as the online safety code. However, I do not think we should extend the language requirement to some of the regulatory reports required under the Act, in particular as they relate to online safety and the Digital Services Act. Given the scale of the activities undertaken by Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n, this would constitute a significant administrative task. For example, under section 139ZM of the 2009 Act, investigating officers of Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n prepare a report of their investigations which would include investigations of breaches of the online safety code and the Digital Services Act. Publication provisions applying to those reports are included in section 139ZT of the Act and there is the potential for these reports and accompanying documentation to literally run into thousands of pages.  As part of pre-legislative scrutiny the committee made a similar recommendation regarding the amendment being proposed today, although the recommendation was confined to the provisions of the Bill rather than the whole Act. I intend to address this recommendation of the Oireachtas committee on Committee Stage in the Seanad. While Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n has a good record in terms of publication of documentation in both of the official languages, it is particularly important that we specify that any report related to RT\u00c9, TG4 and Irish-language content is published in the Irish language, such as the three-year appraisal, annual reports of both companies and the review of the public service content.  Again, as I said, I intend to deal with the main aspects of the amendment, if the Deputies are in agreement, on Committee Stage in the Seanad. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  I would prefer if the Minister would come back to us on Report Stage with an amendment because we have no major control over what happens in the Seanad. I am content with the Minister's response that he is going to look at this and hopefully ensure that the intention of the recommendation will be reflected in the final Bill or, at the very least, the aspects of the Official Languages Act that pertain to an coimisi\u00fan, to RT\u00c9 and to all of the bodies. I am mindful of the fact that there is a low level of demand for reports. Nobody is looking for technical reports that are not public to be translated, no more than we are looking for every single piece of EU legislation to be in the Irish language. Public documents that are launched, which are strategies or are related to public consultation, are the ones that need to be fully translated or fully bilingual. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  I refer, for example, to TG4 having its reports available in the English language or RT\u00c9 having its reports available in Irish. Thus far, it has not always been the case that reports were available at the same time. That is the key. By themselves, they become an aim and can be useful for helping new people to get involved in media in the Irish language and can help us in our deliberations as Gaeilge in this House. I am happy, at this stage, to withdraw the amendment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  What I would say, as the Deputy knows, is that An Coimisin\u00e9ir Teanga has a big role in this as well. Its annual report often calls out agencies that do not fulfil their obligations. We are adhering to the Official Languages Act but in relation to the main thrust of what the Deputy is trying to achieve, I will endeavour to do as much as I can in the Seanad. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment, by leave, withdrawn."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 4 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 5 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 6"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  I move amendment No. 5:  In page 12, between lines 5 and 6, to insert the following:  \u201cand  (b) by the insertion of the following after subsection (3)(i):  \u201c(j) support the development of arts broadcasting and promotion, including by progressing the incorporation of regular arts bulletins akin to existing sports bulletins as part of the news service of public service media to inform the public of developments and achievements across all artforms of local and national significance, drawing attention to the launch and exhibition of new artistic, literary and musical works, upcoming performances, competitions or funding opportunities.\".\".  This is also one of the recommendations we had in the pre-legislative scrutiny report. It is to recommend that in the Bill we ensure there is arts news as part of the category of \"public service content\" in section 2F. Previous committees have done this. This is an ongoing debate to ensure, the same as sports bulletins, there are regular arts bulletins as part of news broadcasts. There was a report, in 2024, \"Future Business Model Plans and Long-Term Vision for the Media Sector.\" The cross-party committee specified, in its recommendation in that report, that \"Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n undertake work in relation to the development of arts broadcasting and promotion, such as it is due to undertake in respect of sports broadcasting following Recommendations 7-9, 7-10, and 7-11 of the Future of Media Commission\u2019s final report ...\". It is to ensure that the arts are central in our coverage. We are in a much better place than other countries, but it is to ensure that in the future that has a specific role. We can then assess it as we go forward to ensure that news coverage covers the arts to its fullest intent and beyond. I am not saying it should ever be limited to the news bulletin no more than sport should be limited to the sports section on the news. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  I agree with Deputy \u00d3 Snodaigh. If the Deputy will indulge me, I will come back with a formula that allows this to be achieved without being overly prescriptive in the legislation that is currently drafted. I will reflect on what he has said. I ask the Deputy to withdraw the amendment because I believe that there should be provision, particularly in the so-called \"flagship\" news bulletins, to have provision for arts and culture reports, maybe not on a daily basis but certainly on a regular basis because we have seen over the past number of years quite a substantial investment and uptake and interest in the arts.  I would be grateful if the Deputy would be agreeable that I could come back with something. I do not want to tie the hands of RT\u00c9 and TG4 and be overly prescriptive because ultimately I have to respect editorial content, but I may be able within the legislation to put in some sort of guide-rails that these are no more than the promotion of the Irish language on which we had a bit of to and fro. There is a requirement in legislation, for instance, around responsibilities to sport. This could be an opportunity. I will reflect on it with my officials and the parliamentary drafts people as to how we do something around promotion of the arts because I am Minister for the arts as well. If the Deputy is agreeable, I will revisit this in the Seanad. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  I am agreeable, once we are discussing it and once we reflect it. This is not a criticism of any radio or TV station. In fact, some of them will have on occasion an arts bulletin that highlights local and national events. It is good that we are talking on it, but you will never see an RT\u00c9 news programme without sports at the end of it. I am not saying you have to have arts - you do not have to have environment. We cannot be prescriptive but if it is a longer news bulletin, for instance, if it is half an hour, there is art happening in every corner of Ireland and they should be able to get some elements of what is happening, nationally and locally, and internationally, around the arts.  I am happy enough that the Minister is willing to look at this and come back. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  I will do it either on Report Stage or in the Seanad. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  I am happy enough. I am happy that it is being discussed. We had a good session on it in the committee and everybody agreed we need to find some mechanism to ensure those arts bulletins happen. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment, by leave, withdrawn."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 6 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 7 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 8"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question proposed: \"That section 8 stand part of the Bill.\""},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  The section is being opposed by Deputy Gibney. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  I oppose section 9 as well. I will speak to both of them, if that is okay. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  No. The Deputy can only speak to the section. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  Okay, I will deal with them one at a time.  Section 8 amends section 12 of the principal Act to provide that a commissioner does not immediately cease to hold office when he or she or a connected relative acquires a relevant interest, as defined by section 15A of the principal Act as inserted by section 9 of the Bill, in a relevant provider - meaning an entity regulated by Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n or a newspaper - and that Government may remove a commissioner from office if he or she fails without reasonable excuse to disclose and divest himself or herself a relevant interest in a relevant provider, as defined by section 15A of the principal Act as inserted by section 9 of the Bill. My issue is that I do not see why a commissioner should be allowed to hold these interests for any length of time while in office. A short-lived conflict of interest is still a conflict of interest and so I oppose this section. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  The Online Safety and Media Regulation Act 2022 provided for the dissolution of the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland and the establishment of Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n. In line with other economic regulatory bodies, such as ComReg and the Commission for Regulation of Utilities, Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n was established as a commissioner-led body with the commissioners in effect exercising the role of both an executive and a board. Given the nature of the entities that Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n would be regulating, it was considered vitally important that there would be no actual or perceived conflict of interest. For that reason, the Online Safety and Media Regulation Act provided that a commissioner would immediately cease to hold office when they or a connected relative acquired a relevant interest in a regulated entity or a newspaper publisher.  The definition of a connected relative is wide, covering a spouse, partner, civil partner, parent, brother, sister or child of the person, or a spouse, partner or civil partner of a child of the person. This was a novel provision in the law, one that does not apply to any other office-holder or employee in any other public body. It may give rise to a scenario where a commissioner ceases to hold office based on the decision of a third party that the commissioner has no knowledge of and has not been party to. For example, if a sibling of a commissioner were given a share-based remuneration in a regulated entity, the commissioner would likely not be aware of this and would have no role in it. However, it would give rise to the automatic removal from office of the commissioner. The Office of the Attorney General has advised that this provision is disproportionate and the absence of an appeal mechanism should a person cease to hold office raises concerns regarding constitutional justice and fair procedures.  To address this, section 8 of the Bill removes the automatic disqualification provision. Instead, section 10 of the Bill provides that the commissioner must disclose and divest themselves of a relevant interest in a regulated entity. Section 8 of the Bill then provides that the Government may remove a commissioner from office if they fail to disclose or divest themselves of a relevant interest in accordance with the Act, subject, of course, to clear process for a removal set out in section 12 of the Broadcasting Act 2009.  I consider that this is a proportional measure. Commissioners will still be unable to hold a relevant interest in a regulated entity as they will be required to divest themselves according to the provisions of the Bill. However, they will not be subjected to disproportional automatic disqualification of office due to a decision in which they had no hand, act or part or, indeed, no knowledge. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  I appreciate the Minister's rationale, but I would also invite him to look to tighten this. We must have something here that means that people do not have a conflict once they are holding the office of commissioner. I have experience in this area. I am a big fan of governance and tight governance. This should be something that is looked to be tightened on Report Stage or in the Seanad. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  Regrettably, I cannot accept what the Deputy proposes. I have given good reason, with all of the other regulators that we operate under and with the principal Act. Fairness, equity and natural justice have to apply here. We have to be proportionate. I understand what Deputy Gibney is trying to achieve but, ultimately, as I said, if a person has no hand, act or part or, indeed, no knowledge of it, I doubt it is proportionate and that a person would have equity before the law. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 9"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question proposed: \"That section 9 stand part of the Bill.\""},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Deputy Gibney is opposing this section too. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  That is adjacent to the point I have just made because section 9 outlines the manner in which this will be done, with timelines of two weeks for notification and two months for divestment. This is exactly my point: we will have a period during which that conflict will exist and that person will still be in office. That is what I have an issue with. Perhaps the Minister might be open to revising this section on Report Stage or in the Seanad so we could tighten up the ways in which this conflict of interest is handled. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  I thank the Deputy. For the same reasons I outlined regarding the previous amendment, natural justice and the principle of proportionality have to attach, so I cannot accept the amendment. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and declared carried."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 10"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Amendments Nos. 6 and 7 are related and may be discussed together. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  I move amendment No. 6:  In page 13, lines 38 and 39, to delete all words from and including \"where\" in line 38 down to and including line 39.  My proposed amendments relate to this area as well. These amendments delete a minimum monetary value for shares, proprietary interests, bonds, debentures and other investments in providers before they are considered relevant for conflicts of interest. My view is that any proprietary interest or investment in a provider is relevant when it comes to conflicts of interest. Why is \u20ac13,000 in bonds relevant but \u20ac12,999 is not? Just as I have said that time should not be considered where a conflict of interest exists, the amount means that the conflict of interest exists and, therefore, the minimum threshold should not be applied. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  In the debate on sections 8 and 9, I have already set out the wider intention of the Bill as regards the new requirement for commissioners to disclose and divest relevant interests. The effect of amendments No. 6 and 7 would be to reduce the maximum value of shares in a regulated entity or newspaper publisher which may be held from \u20ac5,000 to zero, and to reduce the maximum value of debt of a regulated entity or newspaper publisher which may be held from \u20ac13,000 to zero.  By way of background, the maximum values of a relevant interest were set out in the Online Safety and Media Regulation Act 2022 following a review of other legislation. For example, the Ethics in Public Office Act 1995 and the Standards in Public Office Act 2001 provide that shares and debt with a value of \u20ac13,000 should be disclosed in respect of the register of members' interests.  The limits in the Act recognise that people may acquire relatively small investments in circumstances where another person, such as an investment manager, may manage the investment on their behalf. I recognise the Deputy's intention but consider that the current provisions are sufficient to address any conflicts that arise within the commission. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  I disagree. My point still stands that it is an arbitrary line we are cutting off here, which means that people can essentially have interests that I believe to be conflicts but manage them within the thresholds. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  I move amendment No. 7:  In page 13, to delete line 41. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 10 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 11 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 12"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  I move amendment No. 8:  In page 16, between lines 11 and 12, to insert the following:  \"(12) No fewer than 20 per cent of the members of a review committee shall be competent in the Irish language, and membership must include at least one member from a Gaeltacht area.\".\". "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 12 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 13"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Amendments Nos. 9 to 11, inclusive, are related. Amendment No. 10 is a physical alternative to amendment No. 9 and amendments Nos. 9 to 11, inclusive, may be discussed together. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  I move amendment No. 9:  In page 16, to delete lines 32 to 38 and substitute the following:  \"services, and  (g) on the corporations, calculated by reference to its expenses in performing functions in relation to the corporations under\u2014  (i) section 46N(1A),  (ii) section 46OA where the function concerned is performed in relation to a media service code made under section 46N(1A),  (iii) Part 4,  (iv) Part 7, and  (v) Part 8B where the function concerned is performed in relation to a suspected failure to comply with a media service code made under section 46N(1A).\",\".  Amendments Nos. 9 and 11 are Government amendments. As a general principle of regulation, the cost of regulation should be borne by the regulated entities. Section 21 of the Broadcasting Act provides for this by empowering Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n to impose a levy on regulated entities to meet the cost of its functions. It may do so by reference to specific categories of regulated entities. This is intended to ensure that sectors that give rise to limited costs, such as radio or television, pay less than those that give rise to greater costs, given the scale of their activity and the risk of harm to society, namely, video-sharing platform services and online services.  In line with this principle, section 13 of the Bill, as published, provided that RT\u00c9 and TG4 should bear the cost of the various specific regulatory activities set out in the Bill that relate to them, namely, the three-year appraisal and annual review process. Independent Broadcasters of Ireland, representing the commercial radio sector, has raised the issue of the levy imposed by Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n directly with me. I know that the joint committee held a meeting on this matter in June and, as my officials indicated, I am concerned about the level of the increase in the levy on radio service providers.  I subsequently met officials from Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n and also the IBI, and emphasised the importance of minimising the burden of regulation while maintaining regulatory standards, which is in line with policy. Having discussed the potential approaches that could be taken, I asked Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n to revert to me to set out the proposed approach to reducing the cost of regulation on the radio sector and to continue to engage on this.  Regarding legislation, I am now proposing further amendments, through amendments Nos. 9 and 11, to ensure that the following costs relating to RT\u00c9 and TG4 are borne solely by RT\u00c9 and TG4: all costs associated with the regulation of non-broadcast content published by RT\u00c9 and TG4; all costs associated with giving ministerial consent for new services by RT\u00c9 and TG4; all costs in respect of the code of fair trading practice, which applies only to RT\u00c9 and TG4 commissioning activities; and the portion of costs associated with complaints made in respect of RT\u00c9 and TG4. In this context, I note that the recent Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n report on broadcasting complaints received between its establishment in 2023 and the end of 2025 showed that one third of all complaints it receives relate to RT\u00c9 television and another one third to RT\u00c9 radio.  I intend to bring forward further amendments to the levy on Seanad Committee Stage, taking account of some of the points set out in the Cathaoirleach's letter of June to me on this matter.  I consider that section 21 of the Broadcasting Act already addresses the issues raised in amendment No. 10, proposed by Deputies \u00d3 Snodaigh and Byrne. In particular, section 21(9)( c ) requires Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n to take into account the nature, scale and services provided by a provider when providing for the method of calculation of a levy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  I have reflected on amendment No. 10 and the fact that it is already taken into account in the amendment being proposed. I agree on the additional burden on local radio. The levy that was being imposed had the potential to shut down a lot of our local radio stations if it went ahead. It was important that the Minister managed to use this opportunity to reflect on that and put the burden where it is due; on those who are profiting in the main. We are not going to rehash the issues concerning the social media levy at this stage, but maybe some day. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  It is coming later. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  I know that. Some day the money sitting there can be used properly. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment No. 10 not moved."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  I move amendment No. 11:  In page 17, lines 2 and 3, to delete \"paragraphs (g) and (h), and paragraphs (g) and (h) do not affect\" and substitute \"paragraph (g), and paragraph (g) does not affect\". "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 13, as amended, agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sections 14 to 17, inclusive, agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"NEW SECTION"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Amendments Nos. 12, 14 and 25 are related and may be discussed together. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  I move amendment No. 12:  In page 19, between lines 11 and 12, to insert the following:   \"Amendment of Principal Act   18. The Principal Act is amended by the insertion of the following after section 46L:   \"Duty to support local music   46LA. It shall be a function of a sound broadcasting service which broadcasts music to cultivate and promote the development and awareness of local musical talent within the geographical remit of its service in all its regional, gender, socio-economic and cultural diversity, including composers, performers and singer-songwriters operating individually or as part of a band, group, choir, ensemble or orchestra.\".\".  Amendment No. 12 proposes to support local music. There would be a duty on our broadcasting services to support, cultivate and promote the development and awareness of local musical talent within the geographical remit of the service, whether it is a regional service or the like. It is self-explanatory. Over a while, we have tried to tease out how to implement this to ensure that this will happen.  My other amendment is No. 25. This one is to ensure that a commitment relating to the use of Irish on radio and television applies to the advertising of music across all genres and that the Irish language is central in airplay for Irish musicians.  Again, we have recommendations from our pre-legislative scrutiny report. I can read that out but the Minister has already read it so we do not need to rehash it. Basically, what we want to see is a specific duty enshrined in law for our local radio services to cultivate and promote the development of the awareness of local musical talent. We can see how when we cultivate that and where it goes right around the world, it helps us to promote our country but also to promote our culture at home and an awareness of the various influences of culture here. There is a dominance of American and British music in Ireland in particular, whereas sometimes in other countries it can be seen there is an onus on the local, maybe by virtue of their own self-awareness. In the likes of France and New Zealand they promote local culture and musicians and in some cases have domestic airplay quotas to protect local artists and musicians. Especially with the rise of streaming platforms and the challenges of AI-generated music for Irish musicians, it is important that we use the opportunity to ensure we control what we can control as much as possible, without overstepping the mark, dictating or forcing editorial control, as we have done with the Irish language. We can cajole the organisations. Some radio stations, especially local radio stations, are brilliant at promoting their local talent. We just want that on a greater scale and across all of the platforms that are within the legislation with which we are dealing. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  I thank Deputies \u00d3 Snodaigh and Joanna Byrne for bringing the amendments. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  Sorry, I did not speak to amendment No. 14. Building on what Deputy \u00d3 Snodaigh has said, amendment No. 14 ensures the promotion of Irish-composed and Irish-performed music, as well as music in the Irish language, and makes sure this is included in the remit for sound broadcasters. Again, we need to treasure and promote our indigenous culture and make sure it is baked into legislation that this promotion is a mechanism. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  I thank the Deputies for bringing forward the amendments. I also highlight that the Bill contains a number of measures already to support Irish music, and music performed and composed by Irish people, from a regulatory perspective following a recommendation of the committee in pre-legislative scrutiny. Section 19 of the Bill provides that Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n may make media service codes providing for standards and practices to promote a diversity of music composed and performed by persons with a connection to the island of Ireland. Therefore, that issue is already captured.  From a funding perspective, the definition of \"public service content\" set out in section 5 of the Bill refers specifically to the music of Ireland and to the people of the island of Ireland. This means that musical content will form part of the three-year review of the service content being carried out by Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n. The sentiments being expressed by the Deputies are covered in that section. As members will know, the coimisi\u00fan currently supports the broadcasting of Irish music through the sound and vision scheme, and the Bill will enable music to be funded for the distribution through media services other than traditional broadcast.  Amendment No. 12 proposes to place a duty on sound broadcasting services to cultivate and promote the development and awareness of local music within the geographical remit of its service. As Deputies will be aware, the current statutory media duties, as set out in sections 46J to 46M of the revised Broadcasting Act 2009, are more general in nature than the proposed amendment as they relate to harm, offence, privacy, impartiality, objectivity and fairness in news and current affairs and advertising. In considering any proposals to place any specific duty on a sound broadcaster, I must take into account both the legal and policy considerations. Amendment No. 12, as currently drafted, may lead to unintended consequences in terms of the editorial independence - which Deputy \u00d3 Snodaigh half-referred to - of sound broadcasting services. The proposal requires broadcasters to \"promote the development and awareness of local musical talent\". While this is a welcome objective, this may infringe on the editorial independence of radio broadcasters by effectively placing a positive obligation on them to amend programming schedules to accommodate additional local talent and content. Part 6 of the Broadcasting Act places Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n as an independent regulator to issue sound broadcasting licences to radio services and programming commitments for each radio station as set out in the programme policy which forms part of the sound broadcasting contract between a radio station and Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n. Careful consideration around the potential impact of the operation of existing sound contracts would be required prior to introducing the proposal of any new duty on a radio station. It is important that the potential benefit to local musicians and local music within the State is balanced with the right of the broadcasters, subject to their contractual and regulatory obligations, to determine the type of content they wish to broadcast and to ensure sufficient commercial revenue remains available to them, particularly in the context of the current media climate.  Amendment No. 14 provides that Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n may make media service codes to provide for standards and practices to promote and measure the broadcast in sound broadcasting services of music in the Irish language. The provision in section 19 of the Bill relating to the promotion of diversity of music composed or performed by persons with a connection to the island of Ireland may already encompass what the Deputy is trying to achieve. Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n is currently working on the Irish-language action plan, which will be informed by a comprehensive review of the media services carried out by it on foot of a recommendation of the Future of Media Commission. I will examine whether any further legislative measures are required on foot of that plan. Given the timelines for the enactment of this Bill, specifically the stuff relating to the Comptroller and Auditor General, any measures would have to be for future legislation.  Briefly, amendment No. 25 proposes that the methodology prepared by Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n to carry out a three-yearly appraisal of performance and funding for RT\u00c9 and TG4 shall refer specifically to performance commitments relating to the use of the Irish language on television on radio, and to airplay for musicians.  I agree with Deputy \u00d3 Snodaigh on one thing I am concerned about. I have referred to Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n through the Department. I do not think it forms part of the Bill but it certainly forms part of a future remit of Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n which I will have to examine with the coimisi\u00fan, with committee members and possibly with the Attorney General. One thing about which I am concerned is the issue regarding syndication. We have seen a growth of syndication in local commercial radio stations around the country with the result that we are in danger of losing the individual identity of radio stations. This is an issue for us in rural areas - in the Chairman's area and my own as well. It is an issue I have big concerns about. I do not think it is for this Bill but it is certainly something for my deliberations with Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n. If the committee is in agreement, we can come back to that at some other stage in the future. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Yes. Hear, hear. When you are driving at certain times of the day or night you could be listening to the exact same thing on multiple stations. It is syndicated content. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  Sunday afternoon is a case in point. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Yes. Deputies? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  It will be good to see what proposals will come to look at that, and the same with local newspapers. I refer to the sameness that is now happening. There is a big debate about the future of newspapers and that. We have had sessions here with local newspapers and local radio stations and that is one of the concerns. There is a diversity out there. It used to be great when you were driving along. You went from one area to another and it was totally different. There were different nuances. You knew which county you were in sometimes, just by that. Now there is a standardised news service right across the board. If I am in Dublin and three hours later I am hearing the same news on Radio Kerry or whatever, it does not reflect the nuances from those areas. I think the Minister has taken this point on board. I hope we will be able to develop this further to ensure that music and artistic endeavours are getting their fair play. We have to reflect on that in order to ensure that as Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n expands and takes on more and more duties, we will have a media in its fullest sense that reflects our society despite all of the dangers and challenges that are out there.  I think we are in a good place, but we could be in a lot better one. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment, by leave, withdrawn."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 18 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"NEW SECTION"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  I move amendment No. 13:  In page 19, between lines 29 and 30, to insert the following:   \u201cAmendment of Principal Act-insertion of new section   19. The Principal Act is amended by the insertion of the following section after section 46M:   \u201cDuty to the whole community of the island of Ireland   46MA. (1) RT\u00c9 and TG4, whose national television broadcasting services shall be made available, in so far as it is reasonably practicable, to the whole community on the island of Ireland, in accordance with section 114(1)(a) and section 118(1)(a) respectively, shall pro-actively make every reasonable effort to end the practice of geo-blocking and exclusion of audiences in that part of the island not currently under the jurisdiction of the State from their services, including programming content, audience competitions and visual cartographic depictions of the island and its population.  (2) In the interests of fulfilling their duty in line with subsection (1) as national broadcasters for the whole nation, RT\u00c9 and TG4 shall proactively seek to resolve any competing claims to licencing rights across the island with the objective of ensuring equal access to programming content north and south across service providers, particularly where that content relates to their participation in events of importance to the nation, including in terms of news, current affairs, sport and culture, in line with the entitlement and birthright of every person born on the island of Ireland to be part of the Irish Nation under Article 2 of the Constitution.  (3) The Commission shall, no later than six months after the enactment of this Act, prepare and publish a report setting out ways in which RT\u00c9 and TG4 could be facilitated, assisted and required to make available these services in full to the whole community of the island of Ireland, including how they could work to achieve a resolution and cooperation across rights holders in the case of competing claims across jurisdictions, and toward removing any obstacle or barrier, such as the geographical restriction of their broadcasting rights to one part of the island or the use of geo-blocking to enforce such a restriction, to their equal availability across the whole island.  (4) The Minister shall engage with the British government, and with international organisations responsible for the licencing of rights for international events, with a view to establishing an all Ireland market for television licencing rights, and to resolving any competing claims across jurisdictions, and shall lay a report outlining all such engagements made over the previous year on an annual basis starting from one year following the enactment of this Act.  (5) The reports and engagement referred to in subsections (4) and (5) shall pay particular regard to the importance of supporting the fulfilment of commitments in the Good Friday Agreement relating to the widespread availability of services provided by TG4, and acknowledging the public service duty of RT\u00c9 to the whole community of the island of Ireland, to better facilitate equal access to programming content by the whole community of the island of Ireland.  (6) The Commission shall pay due regard to the need for equal and widespread availability of services across the whole of the island of Ireland when agreeing licences for television broadcasting services.\u201d.\u201d.  This amendment comes from a number of conversations with different Ministers over the years. We had a short discussion on this issue during the pre-legislative security on this Bill. The committee examined geoblocking, trying to ensure negotiations are carried out for the rights and ensuring we have full jurisdiction on the whole island. TG4 seems to manage to do it but RT\u00c9 does not. It is very strange. TG4 sometimes does not manage to do it, but it has workarounds and it has explained how that happens. If TG4 has a cartoon translated into Irish, it is able to show it even though it shows up in English in the North or in England. There does not seem to be a blockage there, or there are ways around it. The issue usually comes up, and there is a furore around it, when there are big sporting fixtures. We saw this when Olympians from the Six Counties were competing for Ireland. Sometimes those in Border areas find it difficult to view GAA matches. We will not go into GAAGO and that, but there are issues and there needs to be a proactive approach to this. When this has been raised with RT\u00c9 in the past, it has said that its hands are tied. I have produced legislation that addresses this question, and it is reflected in this amendment, which provides that RT\u00c9 and TG4, as television broadcasters, must be cognisant or aware of their duty to \"the whole community of the island of Ireland\" and must \"make every reasonable effort to end the practice of geo-blocking\". It causes frustration and should not happen. We should use whatever mechanism possible by political means, by negotiating the rights to something or by talking to the international bodies - a sporting body or otherwise - to ensure the dynamics on this island are understood. That means the Olympic Council of Ireland or anybody who is negotiating rights working to ensure there is no obstacle or barrier to broadcasting across the jurisdiction. We encourage the Minister to engage with his counterpart in England to ensure they understand where we are at. It is not something anybody disagrees on. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  No. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  It is a matter of practical difficulties. This amendment seeks to be one of the mechanisms to ensure it is acted on, more so than anything else. There was a presumption in the Good Friday Agreement that these things would be negotiated out, yet we are here 28 years later still struggling with something that I believe can be dealt with by goodwill, in many cases. We should try to get Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n involved also. They are the ones with the expertise, not me. Sometimes I struggle to switch the television from one channel to another. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  I agree entirely with the Deputy on this. It is a huge cause of frustration, particularly for Olympians and particular sporting events, Gaelic games in particular. The Deputy is right. We have had this discussion previously in the context of TG4 nuair a bh\u00edomar sa choiste Gaelainne agus Gaeltachta agus an deacracht a bh\u00ed ann maidir le TG4. He is right that we do not want to draw too much attention to TG4 in case somebody might get the brainwave to----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Say nothing. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  Anyway, we hope that does not happen. I have requested a meeting with my opposite number. I met the British ambassador last week specifically on this issue. I have requested a meeting on a number of occasions with the media minister in the United Kingdom. This issue is covered under the Good Friday Agreement. It is an issue that causes great frustration to people north of the Border and also to people south of the Border, in the Border counties, who are inadvertently victims of this geoblocking practice. There should be a level of maturity brought to the table here. I ask the Deputy if he will accept my bona fides and withdraw the amendment. I would prefer to deal with this issue through the auspices of Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n. I know it has engaged with Ofcom and the Northern Ireland counterpart. There is a group of Irish television broadcasters which includes RT\u00c9, TG4, Virgin Media, BBC and UTV and it is facilitated by Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n and Ofcom. I will be escalating this matter politically in the next number of weeks once I get a meeting with my British opposite number. It is not a devolved responsibility so it has to come from Westminster. We have had the maturity to deal with a lot of issues in this island and we should have the maturity to deal with terrestrial television broadcasts. If the Deputy is agreeable to accepting my bona fides, which I am sure he is because he and I have crossed paths many times before, will he allow us to work separately on this? We can have a separate session of the committee on geoblocking. I think that would be quite helpful. Maybe the British ambassador might like to appear before the committee on the issue of geoblocking. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  I am happy to do that. The main thing is that the issue gets an airing wherever possible, whether it is through the Minister, Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n or the British ambassador. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Maybe we could look at having the British ambassador before the committee. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  Yes, we could look at that. I was going to suggest to my colleagues on the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly that we could raise this issue at that forum as well and get some ideas. Those are the types of forums where we can tease things out because this is one of those hiccups that frustrates so many people. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  It will be a very big hiccup for Los Angeles in 2028 when there will be people in County Down who will not be able to see a certain athlete on RT\u00c9. They will have to watch somebody from Cornwall on the BBC and that is not really fair. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Carrigy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Miche\u00e1l Carrigy  Deputy O'Sullivan and I are very supportive of this proposition. This is where we all want to get to. We support that idea. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  I am happy that the committee can look at how we table this. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  As Chair, I have taken note of that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  The Minister listed the broadcasters who are already trying to work on this issue. Maybe we could ask them for a statement. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  They would be delighted to come before the committee, including the BBC and UTV, as it affects them also. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  We might have an entire session on the issue. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  Definitely. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  I am happy to withdraw the amendment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  The evening has not been entirely bad. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  We are only getting going now. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment, by leave, withdrawn."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 19"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  I move amendment No. 14:  In page 20, to delete lines 17 to 20 and substitute the following:  \u201c(iii) by the insertion of the following paragraphs after paragraph (b):  \u201c(c) the broadcast in programmes broadcast on sound broadcasting services of a diversity of music composed or performed by persons with a connection with the island of Ireland,  (d) the broadcast in programmes broadcast on sound broadcasting services of music in the Irish language.\u201d,\u201d.  I am happy to withdraw the amendment in the hope that the Minister and his team take on my points about the Irish language contained in it. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment, by leave, withdrawn."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 19 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sections 20 to 23, inclusive, agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Amendment No. 15 in the names of Deputies \u00d3 Snodaigh and Byrne has been ruled out of order due to a potential charge on the Revenue. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment No. 15 not moved."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sections 24 to 26, inclusive, agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 27"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  I move amendment No. 16:  In page 25, line 15, after \u201cTG4\u201d to insert \u201c, and, in the case of at least 50 per cent of the members of the board of RT\u00c9, to the board of RT\u00c9,\u201d. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 27 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sections 28 to 31, inclusive, agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 32"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  I move amendment No. 17:  In page 28, line 2, to delete \u201c, or director general, in the English language\u201d. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Amendments Nos. 18 and 19 are related and may be discussed together. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment No. 18 not moved."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 32 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 33"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  I move amendment No. 19:  In page 29, line 35, to delete \u201cshall publish\u201d and substitute \u201cshall publish on a website maintained by the corporation\u201d. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 33, as amended, agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sections 34 to 36, inclusive, agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 37"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  I move amendment No. 20:  In page 33, line 3, after \u201ccorporation\u201d to insert the following:  \u201cand an additional audience council specifically for the Raidi\u00f3 na Gaeltachta service whose members shall all be competent in the Irish language and able to conduct the business of the audience council in that language and which shall include at least one member from each of the districts identified in section 26D of the \u00dadar\u00e1s na Gaeltachta Act 1979 as amended\u201d. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 37 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 38"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  I move amendment No. 21:  In page 34, line 1, to delete \u201cinclusion of members\u201d and substitute \u201cinclusion of at least 3 members in the case of the audience council of RT\u00c9\u201d. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  I move amendment No. 22:  In page 34, line 2, to delete \u201cat least 10 members\u201d and substitute \u201call members\u201d. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 38 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sections 39 and 40 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"NEW SECTION"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  I move amendment No. 23:  In page 37, between lines 28 and 29, to insert the following:   \u201cAmendment of Principal Act-insertion of new section   41. The Principal Act is amended by the insertion of the following after section 105:   \u201cDuties of a Corporation to ensure revenue supports sustainable employment   105A. A corporation shall support sustainable employment where its revenue is used to fund productions, performances and commissions, including by  ensuring\u2014  (a) that no revenue is used to fund the production of content by artificial intelligence;  (b) full compliance with the Copyright and Related Rights Act 2000 and the Directive (EU) 2019\/790 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 17 April 2019;  (c) performers, writers, composers, artists or other workers are not required to sign away their rights to future residual payments for their work, or to agree to a so-called \u2018buy-out\u2019 contract, as a pre-condition of work;  (d) that the principle of equal pay for equal work is upheld;  (e) the publication of and adherence to objective criteria for determining employment status and for using contracts of service, which abide by both the judgement of the Supreme Court in the case of the Revenue Commissioners and Karshan (Midlands) Ltd t\/a Dominos\u2019 Pizza on 20th October 2023 and the Code of Practice on Determining Employment Status.\u201d.\u201d.  This concerns the duty of the corporation, in this instance RT\u00c9 or TG4, to support sustainable employment and that no revenue is used to fund the production of content by artificial intelligence; that there is full compliance with the Copyright and Related Rights Act 2000; that performers, writers, composers and the like are not required to sign away their rights to future residual payments for their work or to agree to a so-called \"buy-out\" contract; and that the principle of equal pay for equal work is upheld, which we should not have to put into legislation at this stage but we know of instances where this is happening or has happened in the recent past in RT\u00c9. The amendment also requires publication and adherence to objective criteria for determining employment status and for using contracts of service that abide by different judgments, such as the Karshan (Midlands) Limited, trading as Domino's Pizza, case and the implications of that.  We are trying to ensure that in all public services, in this case public service broadcasting, workers' rights are at the heart of them. There has been a litany of scandals within RT\u00c9 involving bogus self-employment. The amendment aims to make sure that it is set out that the creative activity of performers and the like is protected and they are not forced to sign away their residual rights on the basis that if they do not sign it they will not get any work, as has been the case with musicians and other performers throughout the years. That is the hint that is there. There is pressure from musicians and other performers, including Screen Composers Guild Ireland, the Ivors Academy, the Irish Music Rights Organisation and in particular, Irish Equity. The D\u00e1il passed a motion just before the summer break calling on the Government to ensure no State funding for arts content produced by AI so the livelihoods of actors and other human artists continue to be supported. We need to act on that. A number of high-profile artists have raised this. Danny O\u2019Donoghue of The Script was quoted as saying that AI-generated art was intellectual property theft on an industrial scale.  The amendment reflects what the D\u00e1il has said, which is that no public money should be spent on AI-generated content that undermines artistic content. We believe that we should protect Irish performers. There is also a power imbalance between the major players in the audiovisual sectors that can undermine the rights of those artists. It is difficult enough to survive on a small island and sustain yourself on what you can get from artistic endeavours without being forced to see those rights to proper remuneration being taken away. There has been a brilliant campaign around that, particularly from Irish Equity, which has shown us contracts people have been asked to sign by some of the major broadcasting networks here and some film companies. People hope to be able to work in the future but their work is being devalued because they sign away their rights. They could sustain themselves a bit more if they were getting small bits and pieces each year from previous work, as was the intention over the years with copyright legislation. There have been a number of recommendations from this committee on these issues and that is what this amendment reflects. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  I thank the Deputies for proposing the amendment. I do not in any way dispute the bona fides as enunciated by Deputy \u00d3 Snodaigh. In fact, I agree with all of them. I want to be clear that I expect RT\u00c9 and TG4 as State bodies established through the law made by the Oireachtas and funded by the people to comply fully with all applicable laws with no exception. This is not a only a presumption when we are drafting and considering legislation but also a wider ethical duty on bodies conferred with important statutory functions and considerable statutory powers. Accordingly, I expect full compliance with all copyright and employment legislation, relevant case law and any guidance issued by any relevant State body. This includes the principle of equal pay for equal work as set out in the employment equality Acts and compliance with the code of practice on determining employment status published by the Revenue Commissioners, the Department of Social Protection and the Workplace Relations Commission, the most recent iteration of which explicitly addressed the implications of the Karshan judgment.  The committee made a number of recommendations regarding copyright legislation in pre-legislative scrutiny as these matters related to copyright legislation, which has an effect on all creative workers and rights holders. I wrote to the Minister for Enterprise, Tourism and Employment to bring them to his attention as this is a matter that falls under his remit. I am acutely aware of the need to support the creative industries and this Government is doing so through increased investments in the arts, the basic income for the arts scheme and investment in the wider media sector, including an existing legislative proposal to place an obligation on RT\u00c9 to spend 25% of public funding on independent productions.  In terms of artificial intelligence, I again expect RT\u00c9 to comply with all applicable legislation, which would be principally the EU AI Act in this case. The Minister for Enterprise, Tourism and Employment and the Minister of State with responsibility for trade promotion, AI and digital transformation are leading on the implementation of this into Irish law. Article 50 of the AI Act, which came into effect last month, sets out transparency requirements, including a requirement to disclose if an AI system has been used to generate or manipulate text that is published with the purpose of informing the public on matters of public interest. Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n will be responsible for supervising this regulated entity's compliance with its obligations.  The Deputy's amendment appears to be broad in respect of AI and would appear to prohibit the use of AI as a research tool in addition to prohibiting its use to generate textual, audio or audiovisual content. Maybe that is not the intent of it but it could be an unintended consequence. I accept Deputy \u00d3 Snodaigh's intentions here. Unfortunately, I cannot accept the amendment, which replicates many of the legal requirements that apply not only to RT\u00c9 but TG4 and all of the other public bodies. Later sections of the Bill about the Comptroller and Auditor General will cover a lot of what Deputy \u00d3 Snodaigh is trying to achieve by virtue of the fact that the Committee of Public Accounts will finally have access to question and hold RT\u00c9 and TG4 to account before it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  I will speak in favour of the amendment. I appreciate the Minister's last point about the PAC now finally getting access. I appreciate that it may make some improvements. Nonetheless, this is already a precarious sector. It is a precarious working environment where, despite all the existing legislation, the Employment Equality Act and other law, there are notoriously poor working conditions within the sector. The fact that the Karshan ruling in and of itself has had such an impact will tell you that the existing law is not tight enough.  The AI Act is being governed and overseen by the Department of enterprise. The Social Democrats and I believe there is already a considerable conflict of interest there. I do not think we should assume in such a fast-moving environment as artificial intelligence that it is going to be enough to protect work across all sectors. That is particularly the case in the artistic space where we know it is such a disruptive technology and is already causing havoc through the exploitation of creative output by workers and making it harder and harder for workers to make a living in this area. This is an opportune moment to embed in the Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill that AI is not going to impact workers' rights. I support the amendment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  I will answer the Minister. The AI Act is new so we do not know its full effect. In some ways, we wish it well and wish well the Minister and those who will be trying to ensure compliance, given how fast the world is changing in that regard. AI has the potential to devalue artistic endeavour. That is scary. It has already done so in many ways. It has robbed artists of their values and their valuable work in many ways. We should be trying to ensure we protect artistic work in whatever way we can. I accept what the Minister said. There are a number of laws and pieces of legislation there. It is a matter of compliance. However, year after year we are approached by various organisations, actors and musicians who are able to show us documentary proof of where they are being encouraged and pressurised to sign away their future remuneration. While independent production is to be welcomed, some of the independent production companies are the ones that are most pressurising of our artists. We need to ensure that when we are not dealing with section 481 and the likes of it, there is a more stringent approach to State funding and the way in which the State allocates its funds to ensure workers' rights are complied with.  The Minister said that some of this will fall under the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General in the future, and that is welcome. I had such legislation before half of RT\u00c9 fell apart, as it were. We will come to that issue in a few minutes.  RT\u00c9 and TG4 have good wage structures and we hope that at this stage they are as transparent as they should be when they employ independent production companies to do work. More and more, that seems to be the model that RT\u00c9 will pursue. TG4 did it from the start. It is important that when the broadcasters are doing that, they ensure there is a proper liveable wage and not just the minimum wage in the companies they are employing. We must ensure that people are paid properly.  I hear the Minister. I am not going to press the amendment, but these are issues we will keep coming back to until they are properly addressed. I have argued these points with the Minister for enterprise, too. I have argued with the Minister for Finance about section 481. Additional criteria and safeguards should be included with any money that goes towards production. The same would be true of the Sound and Vision scheme. If you are grant-aiding any organisation, whether in the arts or another sector, there needs to be a minimum commitment to workers' protection and the protection of their interests, as well as getting the commission you have asked to be produced.  The EU will play catch-up on this. Sometimes it is ahead of us and sometimes it is behind. We need to take what is best in the EU directives and legislation to ensure we have the best possible protections for our artistic community and broadcasting. If we do, we will have products we will be proud of and that we can sell abroad. That may encourage others to come to Ireland to share with us their artistic endeavours because they know the protections are in place. In some cases, those protections are not in place. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment, by leave, withdrawn."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sections 41 and 42 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 43"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  I move amendment No. 24:  In page 39, line 3, after \"Minister\" to insert \"by direction to the corporations\".  This is a technical amendment. It specifies that ministerial approval and the format of the anonymised information on remuneration in the RT\u00c9 and TG4 annual reports is given by way of a direction to both RT\u00c9 and TG4. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 43, as amended, put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 44"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  I move amendment No. 25:  In page 41, line 23, after \u201ccommitments\u201d to insert the following:  \", including performance commitments relating to the use of Irish on television and radio, including in advertisement and music across genres, and to airplay for Irish musicians on radio, including the diversity of musical forms, of artists and of experience,\". "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Amendment No. 26 has been ruled out of order as including a potential charge to the Revenue. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment No. 26 not moved."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  I move amendment No. 27:  In page 45, to delete lines 4 to 42, to delete page 46, and in page 47, to delete lines 1 to 10. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment, by leave, withdrawn."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 44 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 45"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Amendments No. 28 and 29 are related and may be discussed together. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  I move amendment No. 28:  In page 47, to delete lines 35 to 38 and substitute the following:  \"(ii) by the substitution of the following paragraphs for paragraphs (b) and (c):  \u201c(b) he or she is not a qualifying person,  (c) he or she is not a subsidiary of a qualifying person, and  (d) he or she is not a holding company of a qualifying person.\",  (e) in subsection (13)\u2014  (i) by the substitution of \"qualifying persons\" for \"broadcasters\" in each place where it occurs, and  (ii) by the substitution of \"paragraph (c)\" for \"paragraph (b)\",\".  Section 45 provides for reforms to the RT\u00c9 independent programming account. The principal requirement is that RT\u00c9 must pay at least 25% of its public funding into the independent programme account annually. The principal purpose is to commission programming from the independent sector. A number of other reforms to the account are being made through the Bill, including a change to the definition to widen the type of programming that may be commissioned through the account, to include video-on-demand programmes and podcasts.  One of the key principles underpinning the independent programming account is that programmes must be supplied by independent producers. For that reason, the intended effect of the Broadcasting Act 2009 has been that broadcasters, their subsidiaries and holding companies are excluded from being commissioned. Section 45 intended to extend the prohibition on video-on-demand services.  Amendment No. 28, which I am proposing, is intended to clarify these points, namely, that neither a broadcaster nor video-on-demand provider, nor a subsidiary or holding company of either, may be commissioned via the independent programme account. Amendment No. 29 provides an exemption to the rule in respect of persons with annual sales from video-on-demand services of less than \u20ac1 million. This is intended to address the fact that a number of independent producers make parts of their back catalogue available for sale on their websites and technically meet the requirements for video-on-demand services. Amendment No. 29 will ensure these producers are not unintentionally disqualified from being commissioned by RT\u00c9 through the account. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  I move amendment No. 29:  In page 48, to delete lines 9 and 10 and substitute the following:  \u201c \u201c(14A) In subsections (12) to (14), \u2018qualifying person\u2019 means\u2014  (a) a broadcaster, or  (b) a provider of an audiovisual on-demand media service who, in the last financial year before the making of the programme concerned, had annual sales derived from the provision of such services that were greater than \u20ac1,000,000.\u201d.\u201d. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Amendments Nos. 30 and 31 are related and may be discussed together. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  I move amendment No. 30:  In page 48, between lines 10 and 11, to insert the following:  \u201cand  (h) by the insertion of the following after subsection (15):  \u201c(16) A minimum of 25 per cent of the monies spent through the independent programmes account shall be for content in the Irish language.\u201d.\u201d.  This is to provide a set figure to ensure Irish language content receives at least a quarter of the funding. That means it will be in line with how the State is promoting the Irish language and will give it greater visibility than it currently has. What has been happening of late in terms of advertising and that is great. The provisions in the Official Languages Act have had an effect. This is trying to have the same effect in this field. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  Amendment No. 31 simply allows for flexibility for Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n to meaningfully react to the financial situation and public service remit of RT\u00c9 when deciding to alter any percentage in the independent productions account.  I have raised concerns in committee with the director general and elsewhere that much of the in-house production of RT\u00c9 is being moved outside. While I appreciate the rationale for that in light of the changes of recent years, unit after unit is being shut down with institutional loss of knowledge and expertise in development of these areas. We have seen religious programming and youth programming go. Even though the director general assured me news, current affairs and sports would remain, we have since seen one sports programme go. We need flexibility on this and that is why I have put forward this amendment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  With regard to amendment No. 30, the statutory public service remit of RT\u00c9 sets out a clear duty in respect of the Irish language. Section 114(3)( a ) of the Broadcasting Act 2009 sets out that RT\u00c9 must provide a comprehensive range of programmes in Irish, while section 114(2)( a )  requires RT\u00c9 to have special regards to the Irish language.  While I recognise the intention of the Deputies and do not doubt their bona fides, I consider the existing statutory provisions sufficient to ensure RT\u00c9 meets its obligation regarding Irish language programming. Under this Bill, Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n will be responsible, based on its statutory public service remit including the Irish language obligations, for setting RT\u00c9's performance commitments every three years and monitoring the performance annually. There will be an opportunity for the Deputies and the committee to engage with Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n and RT\u00c9 on that basis. I do not believe further ring-fencing of expenditure is necessary at the moment. That is not to say it will not be revisited at some stage.  Amendment No. 31 would allow Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n, with the approval of the Minister, to reduce the minimum amount RT\u00c9 must pay for the purposes of commissioning programming from the independent sector to below 25% of public funding. I understand the rationale. Allowing a lower percentage than 25% would introduce a degree of flexibility to RT\u00c9's commissioning activity. However, there are clear benefits to setting the commissioning target at a minimum of 25% of public funding, as recommended by the Future of Media Commission. It was recommended to the Department; it was not dreamt up by us. It provides certainty to the independent sector, which is an important part of employment in the sector, regarding the minimum amount of commissioning activity over a period of time, facilitating long-term planning. It also ensures the independent sector is more competitive and, as a consequence, more creative and diverse. The benefits of a minimum target of 25% outweigh any benefits of retaining flexibility. Accordingly, I do not propose to accept the amendments. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  I appreciate the points put forward. I know this did not come out of thin air but it is important to recognise the changing landscape and the shifts within RT\u00c9 in recent years. While the recommendation may have come from the Future of Media Commission, we still need to review it in the current context. While independent commissioning is important, we need the flexibility for Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n and RT\u00c9 to ensure our public service broadcaster produces material in-house and retains that competency, particularly when the private market might not always meet the needs of public service broadcasting. I understand the public service broadcasting mandate is passed on to independent, commercial providers through the commissioning process. Nonetheless, we do not have control over the private market. There are strict demands that could leave workers in a poor situation. We all know the film and television production sector is rife with precarious employment. Many of these practices have been uncovered in RT\u00c9, but we do not have the same oversight of the independent sector. When we speak to the employment rights of the sector, this is an important metric to be vigilant about. The amendment seeks to give Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n flexibility as regulator to assess those needs based on the evidence in front of it.  I also appreciate the Minister's point about the consistency and certainty that businesses may seek. I, too, have consulted them, but when we consult independent producers and the commercial space, we need to hear from the workers in those organisations as well. It is not enough to talk to managing directors and CEOs of these companies. We must consider more broadly workers' rights in the sector. That is what this does. It protects workers' rights and our public service mandate. We need to bake in that flexibility for Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n and RT\u00c9. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  I hear what the Minister is saying but RT\u00c9 over the years has not acted well in terms of the Irish language. Of late, it has changed tack and there seems to be more investment. By this amendment, we are trying to ensure that at least it understands the obligation it has and delivers on it by ring-fencing 25% of funding. While we can come back to it - we can come back to any piece of legislation - it will ensure RT\u00c9 understands its full obligations, especially in an era when it is outsourcing more and more. It is in order that we do not get staid Irish programming while all the big money goes on the blockbuster dramas in English. RT\u00c9 will be answerable in the future to the Houses of the Oireachtas or the Comptroller and Auditor General. It has been answerable to this committee and the Irish language committee in the past. That annual debate with it has allowed us to impress upon it that it has a legal obligation. Beyond saying it is not producing enough, we need to do more. I will press the amendment. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 45, as amended, agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 46"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  I move amendment No. 31:  In page 48, line 17, after \u201cgreater\u201d to insert \u201cor less\u201d. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Amendments Nos. 32 to 44, inclusive, are related and may be discussed together. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  I move amendment No. 32:  In page 49, line 24, after \u201cpreceding\u201d to insert \u201cfinancial\u201d.  I will speak to amendments Nos. 32, 33, 35, 36, 38, 39, 41, 42, 43 and 44. These amendments are of a technical nature.  Amendment No. 32 clarifies the reference year in respect of the RT\u00c9 independent programme account should be the financial year. Amendments Nos. 35 to 41 of this group clarify that the information on the cost of programmes in RT\u00c9's and TG4's annual reports on commissioning activities shall mean the estimated costs of making the programmes when commissioned. This reflects the policy intention of the Bill. If the requirement was to publish actual costs, there might be lengthy delays due to audits or refunds related to section 481 and 487A of the tax credits.  I can speak to Deputy Gibney's amendments in a minute. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  Can I introduce my amendments from this grouping? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  Amendment No. 34 includes reporting on staff wages and collective bargaining. Once again, we are looking at workers' rights here in the reporting of independent commissions from RT\u00c9. Amendment No. 40 once again ensures that workers' rights and their treatment are included in the assessment and reporting of show costs. These are amendments which give accountability and transparency on the treatment of workers on projects which receive State funding. If public money is financing a production, we need that transparency on the standards of employment and the treatment of workers in these environments. The taxpayer must be reassured that the private production of programmes for RT\u00c9 does not mean that those who work on them have worse pay and conditions. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  I move amendment No. 33:  In page 49, line 38, to delete \u201cthe band designated under subsection (3)\u201d and substitute \u201cthe band of costs, designated under subsection (4) for the financial year concerned,\u201d. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  I move amendment No. 34:  In page 50, between lines 11 and 12, to insert the following:  \u201c(k) the percentage of that cost which was used on remuneration for staff on the programme,  (l) the number of people employed by the production and the FTE, the median weekly wage of those employed as part of the production, and whether those working on the production were covered by a collective bargaining agreement.\u201d "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put and declared lost."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  I move amendment No. 35:  In page 50, between lines 11 and 12, to insert the following:  \u201c(3) The references in subsection (2) to the estimated cost of making a programme are references to the cost of making the programme as estimated by RT\u00c9 at the time when RT\u00c9 commissioned the making of the programme.\u201d. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  I move amendment No. 36:  In page 50, line 12, to delete \u201c(3) The\u201d and substitute \u201c(4) The\u201d "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment No. 37 not moved."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  I move amendment No. 38:  In page 50, line 14, to delete \u201c(4) The\u201d and substitute \u201c(5) The\u201d. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 46, as amended, agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 47 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 48"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  I move amendment No. 39:  In page 51, line 4, to delete \u201cthe band designated under subsection (3)\u201d and substitute \u201cthe band of costs, designated under subsection (4) for the financial year concerned,\u201d. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  I move amendment No. 40:  In page 51, between lines 18 and 19, to insert the following:  \u201c(k) the percentage of that cost which was used on remuneration for staff on the programme,  (l) the number of people employed by the production and the FTE, the median weekly wage of those employed as part of the production, and whether those working on the production were covered by a collective bargaining agreement.\u201d.  On both of my amendments in this grouping, Nos. 34 and 40, I did not get a response from the Minister. I think he was prepared to provide one but I just had to introduce them first. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  In general, the Deputy proposed amendments Nos. 34 and 40 which would require additional information to be included in the annual reports of RT\u00c9 and TG4 on commissioning activities in respect of each programme commissioned by the providers in respect of remuneration. I understand the overall intention but as the Deputy will be aware, the film regulations of 2019 provide that applicants for the section 481 tax credit are required to provide an undertaking that both the producer company and qualifying company are in compliance with all employment laws, requirements and legislation and will continue to be in compliance throughout the production of the qualifying film. Of course, not all programming commissioned by RT\u00c9 would qualify for a tax credit and the expert advisory committee on contractor fees, HR and other matters in RT\u00c9 recommended that RT\u00c9 should implement a statement of counterparty's employment standards, to be required of all those, including independent production companies, with whom it does business to ensure they comply with all relevant employment laws applicable to their staff. The Deputy has suggested that further specific information be provided, including on the remuneration of staff, employee numbers, median weekly wage and whether the staff were covered by a collective bargaining agreement. I do not propose to accept the amendment at this time. However, sections 46 and 48 of the Bill do allow the Minister to direct that further information may be included in the RT\u00c9 and TG4 annual reports on commissioning activities. I will take the Deputy's proposed approach under consideration in the context of reviewing the appropriate monetary bands which should apply for the purposes of the disclosing the costs of production of each programme. I am aware that there was a lot of discussion around bands by this committee. There is a clear balance that must be struck between the amount of information that is disclosed and the commercial nature of the independent sector which I think everybody would accept. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  I appreciate, having had the opportunity to hear from the Minister, that he is willing to take this under consideration in the context of other sections. I am not inferring any malfeasance or breach of law but it is important to get information on quality of employment which is currently not covered. I urge the Minister to look at that. I am willing to withdraw amendment No. 40. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment, by leave, withdrawn."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  I move amendment No. 41:  In page 51, between lines 18 and 19, to insert the following: \u201c(3) The references in subsection (2) to the estimated cost of making a programme are references to the cost of making the programme as estimated by TG4 at the time when TG4 commissioned the making of the programme.\u201d "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  I move amendment No. 42:  In page 51, line 19, to delete \u201c(3) The bands\u201d and substitute \u201c(4) The bands\u201d. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  I move amendment No. 43:  In page 51, line 21, to delete \u201c(4) Subsections\u201d and substitute \u201c(5) Subsections\u201d. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  I move amendment No. 44:  In page 51, line 25, to delete \u201c(5) The\u201d and substitute \u201c(6) The\u201d "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 48, as amended, agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Amendment No. 45, in the names of Deputies \u00d3 Snodaigh and Joanna Byrne, is out of order because of a potential charge on the Revenue. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment No. 45 not moved."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sections 49 to 53, inclusive, agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 54"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Amendments Nos. 46 and 48 are related and may be discussed together, by agreement. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  I move amendment No. 46:  In page 62, between lines 2 and 3, to insert the following:  \u201c(13) The Commission may allow for public service broadcasters to apply for funds under any scheme established under section 152F at their discretion.\u201d.  Funding under the broadcasting fund of Ciste na Me\u00e1n is currently restricted to the private sector. That has potential consequences for RT\u00c9 and TG4, particularly the latter which has a trove of content that could be archived and made available to the public but it requires appropriate funding to do so. That is what this amendment proposes to address. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  At present RT\u00c9 and TG4 may receive direct funding from the broadcasting fund through the Sound and Vision and archiving schemes. The vast majority of the funding for programmes financed through Sound and Vision that are broadcast on RT\u00c9 and TG4 goes directly to independent producers. Over the period from 2020 to 2024, TG4 received no direct funding and RT\u00c9 received \u20ac336,000 in direct funding from Sound and Vision. The last archiving scheme ended in 2019, with RT\u00c9 and TG4 receiving \u20ac1.3 million, or 40% of the scheme funding in total, directly as sole applicants and a further \u20ac800,000, or 26%, as joint applicants. One of the key policy decisions I made when I published the general scheme of the Bill was to prohibit RT\u00c9 and TG4 from directly receiving funding under any other media funding schemes. I intend to introduce a further technical amendment on Committee Stage in the Seanad to absolutely clarify this point. There is a clear rationale for my decision. The public service remit of RT\u00c9 and TG4 is set out in law in sections 114 and 118 of the Broadcasting Act 2009. It includes not only the provision of media services by the providers but it also requires them to establish and maintain archives and libraries containing materials relevant to RT\u00c9's public service remit. The law is already clear with regard to this. RT\u00c9 and TG4 receive public funding to archive, as per their statutory public remit. Over the period from 2018 to 2025, TG4's public funding increased by 63% and RT\u00c9's by nearly 20%. The Bill will convert the broadcasting fund to a platform-neutral Ciste na Me\u00e1n, as we already discussed, which will fund all media funding schemes for the sector including the Sound and Vision scheme. Allowing RT\u00c9 and TG4 to access funding directly from Ciste na Me\u00e1n would clearly amount to dual funding, effectively allowing them to receive public funding to achieve their objectives under the law and then to compete with the wider media sector for more funding through competitive funding rounds operated under Ciste na Me\u00e1n. That, necessarily, would reduce the amount of funding available to the wider sector and on that basis I cannot accept the Deputy's amendment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  To clarify, I am not asking for them to be automatically included but I want to ensure that beyond the day-to-day running of providers, they are met with that funding. I am happy to withdraw the amendment but I urge the Minister to take my point on board. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  It is good to clarify that. I do not know if the Minister is aware of TG4's new app, Cartlann TG4. It contains its archive material, which shows that TG4 is taking its remit seriously. Obviously, being a new station, it is probably easier for it as it was broadcasting in the digital age almost from the start whereas for RT\u00c9, it is different. Raidi\u00f3 na Gaeltachta also has an archive but additional funding is required for that huge archive because it is not digital. They have started working on it over the last number of years. They have done work on the recordings - not the broadcasts but the recordings - they did of different characters, musicians and people over the years, many of whom have passed away. To convert that into digital format is important before it is affected by time. I know they are in the middle of that work.  It is definitely ensuring that in the future we all have access to that material that, in some cases, is 50 years old at this stage. It is that length of time since Raidi\u00f3 na Gaeltachta started. RT\u00c9 is in the same boat with the material but given its precarious finances, the diversion of money to ensuring there is a proper archive is not always at the front of people's minds when they are discussing RT\u00c9. We need to make sure that Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n reminds RT\u00c9 of its duty, and that if there is a few spare hundreds of millions or so----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  Hundreds of millions? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  You would never know. The Minister has deep pockets. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment, by leave, withdrawn."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  I move amendment No. 47:  In page 63, lines 35 and 36, to delete \u201con a website and in any other way the Minister considers appropriate\u201d. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 54 as amended, agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 55 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 56"},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question proposed: \"That section 56 stand part of the Bill.\""},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  Section 56 grants the European works levy powers to the Minister instead of Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n. Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n is best placed for this and ensures that the decision is made independently and based on the evidence. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  I have been clear in my approach to this issue since I took up office as Minister for Culture, Communications, and Sport. I consider that any charge on the people should be subject to ministerial oversight as the European works levy, which is commonly known as the Netflix levy, could give rise to an increase in prices for Irish consumers. I consider it a matter of principle that it should be subject to democratic oversight. That is why section 56 of the Bill does not, to be clear, abolish the European works levy. Instead, it makes it subject to ministerial direction to ensure that any decision is fully informed. Section 58 of the Bill further provides for the preparation by Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n of an ex ante report on the possible impact of a levy every three years.  On the recommendation of this committee, such a report must include the probable impact of a levy on supply of public service content in the State, in addition to the probable impact on the prices of the media services in the State. Separate to this, the Bill is a question of whether I, as Minister, will give direction to Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n. My position on this remains unchanged. I consider that the introduction of a European works levy risks placing an additional financial burden on Irish households already experiencing cost-of-living pressures, particularly in the context of recent international developments. I have no intention of issuing such a direction until I am satisfied that a content levy would not impose an undue burden on Irish households. I assume, at this stage, as we have flogged this to death, that in the context of the cost-of-living issues we have, people are not in favour of increasing the price of people's Netflix. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  We may have flogged it to death but we are still on opposite sides of the debate on it. The levy on providers is not a charge on people. Those being levied are responsible for their pricing, not Coimisi\u00fan na Me\u00e1n. I appreciate the committee is trying to get----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  Can the Deputy demonstrate to me any levy that has been imposed by the Oireachtas on any regulated utility that has not been passed on to the consumer? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  I suggest that rather than reiterate this debate again, and I appreciate that the committee is trying to get to the end in two minutes----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  We have seven minutes and I am concluding at half past. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  I take that as a \"No*. The consumers would pay it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  No. I am respecting that the committee is trying to get towards the work----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  I am respecting the fact the Deputy refused to answer. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sections 57 and 58 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"SECTION 59"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  I move amendment No. 48:  In page 68, line 23, after \u201cprogrammes\u201d to insert \u201cincluding feature films, animation, drama, and documentary programmes\u201d  This is an amendment from Deputy Byrne. I reserve the right to raise the issue on Report Stage. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment, by leave, withdrawn."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Section 59 agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"NEW SECTION"},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Aengus-\u00d3-Snodaigh.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Aengus \u00d3 Snodaigh  I move amendment No. 49:  In page 69, between lines 2 and 3, to insert the following:   \u201cAmendment of section 162 of Principal Act   60. Section 162 of the Principal Act is amended by the insertion of the following paragraph after subsection (3)(b):  \u201c(c) The duty of the Minister to promote the arts in line with section 5(1) of the Act of 2003, including both traditional and contemporary across different art forms, with particular regard to arts in the Irish language and traditional and sean-n\u00f3s forms, and to festivals, events and competitions of national importance to a particular art form or of significant public interest.\u201d.\u201d.  I will not delay. This is based on our pre-legislative scrutiny report recommendation 18, where we recommended an amendment to the Broadcasting Act to ensure festivals, events and competitions of national importance, including different art forms such as traditional and contemporary Irish language and sean n\u00f3s, are broadcast free to air. Under the existing law, the Minister is empowered to designate major events to be broadcast free to air under section 162 of the Broadcasting Act. This power has been exclusively used for sporting events. However, RT\u00c9 for instance, has decided against providing coverage of Electric Picnic. We have seen in England the huge coverage of Glastonbury. That can happen. TG4, in fact, covered it. There is a need to look at more events that could be broadcast free to air, such as the Oireachtas na Gaeilge festival or Fleadh Cheoil na h\u00c9ireann. We have opportunities to look at expanding what has been exclusively sporting events thus far. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Patrick O'Donovan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Patrick-O'Donovan.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Patrick O'Donovan  I agree with the broad thrust of the Deputy's points. Cultural events such as Fleadh Cheoil na h\u00c9ireann are important. In the specific case of the Fleadh Cheoil, TG4 dedicates considerable live television to it and it should be commended on that. However, I do not agree that we need to include a specific reference to the Broadcasting Act of 2009 and I do not accept the amendment. While amendment of the existing provisions is unnecessary, the Department will examine ways in which a broader selection of events could be encouraged and, to the Deputy's point, not just in sport but also in arts and culture, to be brought forward for consideration under a consultation and assessment process for future review. It is my intention to bring forward, with regard to sport, an updated list in the not-too-distant future. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment, by leave, withdrawn."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Sections 60 to 62, inclusive, agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Title agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Bill reported with amendments."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  On behalf of the committee, I thank the Minister and his officials for their attendance. I also thank committee members for the manner in which we got this done with one minute to spare. It was very efficient. As there is no other business, this meeting\u2014--- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Miche\u00e1l Carrigy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Miche\u00e1l-Carrigy.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Miche\u00e1l Carrigy  As we are discussing the broadcasting Bill, RT\u00c9, the Comptroller and Auditor General and the commissioning of independent programming, with what happened in the past week with RT\u00c9 airing programmes that had to be then taken off air\u2014-- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  That is not relevant. We can deal with that in the normal committee. As there is no other business, I acknowledge the clerk and the staff here. The clerk has done two sessions, one after the other, back to back because he is the efficient clerk when it comes to complicated Bills. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2026: Committee Stage"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/select_committee_on_arts_media_communications_culture_and_sport\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_6","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Teachtaireacht chuig an D\u00e1il - Message to D\u00e1il","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_6","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Kelly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Alan-Kelly.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  As consideration of the Bill has been completed, in accordance with Standing Order 110, the following message will be sent to the Clerk of the D\u00e1il:  The Select Committee of Arts, Media, Communications, Culture and Sport has completed its consideration of the Broadcast (Amendment) Bill 2026, and has made amendments thereto. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an roghchoiste ar athl\u00f3 ar 8.29 p.m. sine die ."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The select committee adjourned at 8.29 p.m. sine die ."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Teachtaireacht chuig an D\u00e1il - Message to D\u00e1il"}]}}]},"contextDate":"2026-09-22"},{"debateRecord":{"house":{"showAs":"Joint Committee on Fisheries and Maritime Affairs","committeeCode":"joint_committee_on_fisheries_and_maritime_affairs","houseCode":"dail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/committee\/dail\/34\/joint_committee_on_fisheries_and_maritime_affairs","chamberType":"committee","houseNo":"34"},"chamber":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/def\/committee","showAs":"Joint Committee on Fisheries and Maritime Affairs"},"lastUpdated":"2026-09-24T02:08:10+00:00","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/joint_committee_on_fisheries_and_maritime_affairs\/2026-09-22\/debate\/main","formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/joint_committee_on_fisheries_and_maritime_affairs\/2026-09-22\/debate\/mul@\/main.xml"},"pdf":null},"date":"2026-09-22","counts":{"contributorCount":6,"divisionCount":0,"debateSectionCount":1,"questionCount":0,"billCount":0},"debateType":"debate","debateSections":[{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/joint_committee_on_fisheries_and_maritime_affairs\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_2","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"General Scheme of the Fisheries (Amendment) Bill 2026: Discussion","counts":{"speechCount":88,"speakerCount":7},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor D. McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Lee Hunter","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Manus Boyle","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Manus-Boyle.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Manus-Boyle.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pat the Cope Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pat-the-Cope-Gallagher.D.1981-06-30","memberCode":"Pat-the-Cope-Gallagher.D.1981-06-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Mac Lochlainn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Noonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Cahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor D. McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Before we move to the substantive topic of the meeting, I want to bring attendees' attention to a note on privilege. Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that could be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. If any statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, the speaker will be directed to cease their remarks and it is imperative that witnesses comply with any such direction I may make. Privilege against defamation does not apply to the publication outside of the proceedings held by the committee of any matters arising from the proceedings.  I advise members of the constitutional requirement that they be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in a public meeting. I will not permit any member to participate who is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. I do not believe we have any member on Microsoft Teams. If that arises during the meeting, I will ask any member who attempts to participate on Microsoft Teams to confirm they are on the precincts. If not, they will be asked to leave the meeting.  The agenda is pre-legislative scrutiny of the fisheries (amendment) Bill. This will be the first of two meetings on this topic. We are joined by eight witnesses. From the Sustainable Water Network, SWAN, we have Ms Emma Armshaw, marine and coastal policy officer; Mr. John Murphy, manager of Salmon Watch Ireland; Dr. Elaine McGoff, head of advocacy with An Taisce; and Ms Karin Dubsky, director of Coastwatch.  From the Irish Farming Association aquaculture committee, we have Ms Teresa Morrisey, policy executive; Mr. Finian O'Sullivan, chair; Ms Catherine McManus, vice chair; and Mr. Lee Hunter, committee member.  The opening statements have been forwarded to members. I will allow each witness group to read its opening statements but we will keep the time limit at five minutes, if that is okay. If the statement is a little longer I ask the witnesses to summarise it. Keep an eye on the clocks around the room to make sure you are keeping good time. We are starting about 15 minutes late and we really want to get through the discussion. We will then go to questions and answers. Each member will have seven minutes to put questions. That also includes time for the response to those questions. If time allows, we will go for a second round.  I invite Ms Armshaw from the Sustainable Water Network to read its opening statement. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Emma Armshaw","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Emma Armshaw  SWAN sincerely appreciates the invitation to discuss the general scheme of the fisheries (amendment) Bill 2026. SWAN's 2025 aquaculture policy position includes nine legal recommendations, based on a barrister's analysis of the legislative provisions currently governing aquaculture in Ireland. Our aim is that through this pre-legislative scrutiny process, these recommendations will be added to the Bill.  Our first recommendation is for an amendment to the Fisheries Act to add a subsection stating that the purpose of the Act includes giving effect to the water framework, green strategy framework, green area planning, habitats and environmental impact assessment directives. We note that the general scheme of the Bill makes no specific mention of these environmental directives.  Section 61 should be amended to require the Minister and the aquaculture licences appeals board to have regard to, and comply with, the requirements of those environmental directives when determining a licence application or appeal. It should also require them to comply with the national marine planning framework to make a determination in relation to water status and to adopt an eco-system-based approach, the definition of which should be transposed from the Bremen Declaration.  Another key recommendation from SWAN is the repeal of section 19A(4). SWAN opposes the prolonged continuation of aquaculture operations after expiry of the original licence without a timely and effective environmental reassessment. SWAN notes that while section 19A(1) in head 7 provides for the repeal of section 19A(4), it then immediately reinstates it in section 19A(2) and section 19B. The Irish Government has been in correspondence with the European Commission for several years about the revocation of section 19A(4) and should now be in a position to provide for a genuine and rapid phase-out of this problematic provision.  In addition to the standard environmental assessments which are required under EU law, the Minister should be expressly required to consider the previous production and environmental performance of a site. Where there has been a serious or unresolved licence breach - particularly one with environmental consequences - this should be a relevant consideration in granting a renewal of the licence.  Enforcement of environmental conditions should be added as a full section and monitoring must form part of the licences. There should also be an emergency action that goes beyond issuing a notice.  SWAN has also called for reform of the process of appointing members to the Aquaculture Licences Appeals Board, ALAB, to ensure an equitable balance of environmental and industrial interests. We are also concerned by the proposal to remove the existing stay while the appeal period is running or an appeal is being determined. An environmental appeal must remain capable of preventing damage rather than merely determining afterwards whether an original decision was correct. Where significant effects on protected habitats and species cannot be excluded, the precautionary principle must prevail.  Further to our legal recommendations, SWAN's main recommendation on the basis of our evidence-based policy position is that open-net salmon farming must be phased out, with no further licences granted, due to its impacts on water quality and biodiversity. We look forward to constructive engagement with the committee on the pre-legislative scrutiny of the fisheries (amendment) Bill and ensuring Ireland's legal obligations under the EU's environmental directives are prioritised in the forthcoming changes to aquaculture legislation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Finian O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Finian O'Sullivan  I thank the committee for the invitation to appear to day to discuss the important process of pre-legislative scrutiny of the draft general scheme of this Bill. This draft legislation is particularly significant for the Irish aquaculture sector. It proposes substantial changes to the framework governing licence renewals, the Aquaculture Licences Appeals Board and the enforcement of the relationship between aquaculture and foreshore licences.  From the perspective of aquaculture producers, our central message today is straightforward: legislative reform must deliver greater transparency for aquaculture businesses and must not simply replace one form of inefficient licensing process with another. We have reservations as to whether these proposed amendments, on their own, go far enough to deliver the necessary efficient licensing process to realise the ambition to sustainably develop and advance the sector, as set out in the national strategic plan for sustainable aquaculture development and the current programme for Government. These legislative amendments are intended, in the main, to deal with the long-standing matter of licences operating under section 19A(4), but do not go far enough in dealing with the necessary reforms needed to deliver an efficient, transparent and sufficiently resourced aquaculture licensing system. We need to hear more of the details on how the proposed changes will turn words into action and get the job done.  I now turn to licence renewal and business continuity. The issue of licence renewal is particularly important. There is an urgent need for a genuine effort to be made to clear the current accumulated backlog of aquaculture licence renewal determinations. The lack of progress is having a detrimental effect on attracting investment and new, younger participants into the industry. It appears that these proposed amendments will not immediately address the current backlog of in excess of 500 renewals awaiting determination.  The Bill proposes that renewal applications must be submitted at least 24 months before the expiry of an existing licence and extends the statutory period for determining applications from four to 24 months. A new section 10(1)(a) will require that the application to renew a licence is received and accepted by the Minister not less than 24 months before the existing licence expires. We accept that complex applications, particularly those involving environmental assessments, require sufficient time for proper consideration. We understand that a lead-in time of 24 months gives a good chance for the continuity of an existing licence being uninterrupted if there is no major objection during the licence renewal process. We also accept that where a licence renewal has been applied for, and the Minister and the Department are unable to determine the application within the 24-month timeframe, the Minister may extend the licence for a temporary period specified in a written extension. To do this, the Minister must be satisfied that the continued operation is unlikely to have a significant effect on or adversely affect the environment. However, it is not clear how or when the Minister would make such a determination. There is uncertainty as to what environmental threshold must be met and it also appears that no process or criteria are specified.  Aquaculture producers need clarity on this process so they can make informed decisions on investment and the future development of their businesses. A producer who has submitted a valid and timely renewal application should not face having to cease operating because of delays in the State's licensing system that are outside their control. We need more clarity on this aspect of the amendment.  With regard to environmental protection and regulatory certainty, IFA Aquaculture fully recognises the importance of environmental protection. Our sector depends on clean, vibrant and productive coastal waters. The Bill strengthens certain environmental provisions, including allowing for the revocation or amendment of licences where significant environmental effects are occurring or likely to occur. We welcome that the Bill updates environmental assessment terminology and references to EU legislation. We support the need for the aquaculture sector to operate within a robust environmental framework. However, we contend that a properly designed licensing system should protect the environment while enabling aquaculture to grow and develop as an industry, creating badly needed jobs and enterprises in rural coastal communities, but also sustainably producing food and contributing to food security in this country. We live in a world where the demand for more protein is on the up while the wild fish catch is in decline. Producing food on both land and sea is becoming more strenuous with every day that passes due to global warming. We believe that with balanced and honest communication in society, these two principles - aquaculture and the environment - can be reconciled. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor D. McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  We can come back to some of the remaining points in the question and answer session. I will throw the floor open to members. I remind them that they have seven minutes. I call Senator Boyle. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Manus Boyle","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Manus-Boyle.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Manus-Boyle.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Manus Boyle  I thank our guests for attending.  What we are doing here is very important. I will ask the following of Mr. O'Sullivan. If I were to start out in the morning, what pre-planning would I have to do to get going? How long would it take? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Finian O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Finian O'Sullivan  Is the Senator asking how long it would take to get going with a licence? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Manus Boyle","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Manus-Boyle.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Manus-Boyle.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Manus Boyle  Yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Finian O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Finian O'Sullivan  I think I answered that question previously. How long is a piece of string? This legislation is not dealing with the current applications for renewal that are held up for years in the system. It is hard to answer the question of how long it would take if you were to start again from scratch. If you were to put in an application now or within two years of the legislation being enacted, you would still be operating under the old system, which takes us back to where we started. I cannot answer the question. I cannot put a timeline on that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Manus Boyle","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Manus-Boyle.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Manus-Boyle.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Manus Boyle  How long is the backlog now? Is it months or years? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Finian O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Finian O'Sullivan  It is years. There were some licences issued in October or November last year. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Teresa Morrissey","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Teresa Morrissey  We asked under parliamentary questions and zero licences were issued - I should say determined - to the end of last year. We are waiting years for renewals.  The Senator's previous question related to how long pre-planning takes. We do not have a pre-planning part of the process. It is one of the things we are hoping will be considered as part of the amendments. Practically all of the recommendations of the licensing review should be looked at as part of the amendments. Pre-planning was one of those. We anticipate that if there were a pre-planning part of the licensing system, it would speed up the process. You would have certainty as to what is required of you as an applicant or, in terms of your renewal, what needs to be submitted to the Department and what is for consideration. We do not have that now. What is required of you is set out in legislation, but we do not have those kinds of open and frank discussions that we would like to have at the pre-planning stage. Some applications do not have to go through the full process, for example, if a site were not suitable or something like that. You would not necessarily go forward with the process in those circumstances if there were a pre-planning stage. However, to put a timeline on how long a pre-planning part of the process would take is nearly impossible because we have no timelines for anything at the moment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Manus Boyle","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Manus-Boyle.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Manus-Boyle.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Manus Boyle  Are foreshore licences causing a big hold-up? Are they easier to manoeuvre through the process? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Teresa Morrissey","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Teresa Morrissey  Foreshore licensing is not a separate part of the process but, in theory, they dovetail. When you apply for your aquaculture licence, you automatically apply for your foreshore licence. The proposed amendment in the heads of the Bill considers tightening that and ensuring there is not a situation whereby someone is issued an aquaculture licence and has to wait for his or her foreshore licence to be issued, or vice versa . That is what is proposed and it is a welcome introduction. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Manus Boyle","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Manus-Boyle.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Manus-Boyle.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Manus Boyle  For companies already in existence, it is proposed that there will be a requirement to submit a renewal application 24 months prior to the expiry of the current licence. That will put companies on a level playing field. They will know that the licence is coming. It will bring an order to matters rather than somebody pulling out the paperwork a couple of months before it is due. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Teresa Morrissey","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Teresa Morrissey  That is absolutely the case. The 24-month requirement is a welcome inclusion because it gives some level of a timeline. However, the proposed amendment is to increase the timeline from four months to 24 months. Every one of us in this room knows that you do not get a licence determination within four months. If it were possible for the process to be completed within those 24 months, we would welcome it, but we are not getting certainty as to how it would happen that you would absolutely be through the process and out the other side within 24 months. We need to examine that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Manus Boyle","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Manus-Boyle.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Manus-Boyle.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Manus Boyle  Aquaculture creates a lot of jobs. Are many people employed in the sector at the moment? How many more could we employ if we could get the system moving relatively fast rather than what has been the case? Everything seems to drag and drag as a reason not to give people anything. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Teresa Morrissey","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Teresa Morrissey  There are about 2,000 direct jobs in the aquaculture sector nationally at the moment. It could be much more than that if we had a licensing system that was fit for purpose because people would have certainty on investment in their business and certainty for the next generation - those like Lee Hunter, who are looking to get into the business and be certain of their future. I could not put a figure on it. As we all know, in coastal communities, any industry that can provide direct jobs, as well as the ancillary services across the seafood sector that are provided beyond the direct jobs, is critical at the moment. We need to try to retain them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Finian O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Finian O'Sullivan  In the current situation, it is difficult to make the industry attractive to young people. If we had a more dynamic industry that was moving along, we would get young people to come into the industry. Mr. Hunter has faith in the industry but he still has the same problems we are talking about with regard to renewing licences. Nonetheless, he is prepared to put in the effort and stay with the game to try to create a job for himself and his family in Donegal, where he wants to live. Coastal areas are being denuded of young people, who are moving to the urban areas. The water is on their doorstep. If there is the possibility of creating an enterprise there, they should be given the chance. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pat the Cope Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pat-the-Cope-Gallagher.D.1981-06-30","memberCode":"Pat-the-Cope-Gallagher.D.1981-06-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pat the Cope Gallagher  I thank both groups for coming in and for briefing us on their views on the fisheries (amendment) Bill 2026. Of course, it is important that we take into consideration the views expressed by the people in an industry or sector that has been outlined as providing 2,000 direct jobs in rural, peripheral parts of the country where there is no alternative source of employment. We should be supportive of that and not create obstacles for those involved.  It is not a question of just throwing out licences willy-nilly. Of course, all of this has to be done in a very professional way, and I think that is reflective of both groups. However, 24 months is a long time. I wonder if this is acceptable, particularly as the Department also requires a long period. Not alone that, but it was like the old An Bord Plean\u00e1la before An Coimisi\u00fan Plean\u00e1la was set up - it could still extend that time. If it is to be 48 months, it is long enough to allow people to invest in the sector.  I read that it is going to be more efficient now. Is the legislation going to be matched with additional funding to employ other officials if that is necessary to fast-track this? There is also the situation that was raised previously. If someone has a licence and has to renew it, what is a reasonable time in which to have the licence renewed? Is it ten years or 15 years? What is it? In a very short time, if someone is not observing the rules and conditions, they lose their licence. However, if it is being extended, am I right in my understanding from the last time the witnesses were before the committee that people cannot apply for funding during that interregnum? That does not make a lot of sense because it is not the fault of the applicants.  I again thank the witnesses for coming in and look forward to their responses. It is important that we work together in relation to the scrutiny. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Teresa Morrissey","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Teresa Morrissey  I will pick up on a couple of those points. The 24 months mentioned by the Deputy is probably too long from our point of view. I certainly do not think it should be the target that it takes that long to deal with an application or renewal application.  We can certainly do better than that. Having said that, we do recognise that it is a complex licensing system. That is the problem. It is too complex. We are looking for further reforms than what has been proposed here in these legislative amendments. These are just amendments; they are not actually dealing with the core problem of licensing of all. They are not dealing with the reforms that have been sought for a number of years, have been recommended in numerous reports and that are committed to in the national strategic plan.  I definitely agree with the Deputy's point in that if this is to be a more efficient licensing system, more resources are needed. More resources are currently needed in the system we have at the moment. Even if we were just to look at these amendments and heads of Bill as they stand, if they were to be implemented in the morning we would definitely need more resources across the system to be able to do that. On a reasonable timeframe for a licence renewal, does the Deputy mean the timeframe it takes to renew the licence or the timeframe of the licence? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pat the Cope Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pat-the-Cope-Gallagher.D.1981-06-30","memberCode":"Pat-the-Cope-Gallagher.D.1981-06-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pat the Cope Gallagher  It is two questions. I asked about the timeframe for the licence and the timeframe to renew. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Teresa Morrissey","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Teresa Morrissey  The timeframe for the licence that is already legislated for in the current legislation is actually 20 years but that does not happen. We get ten years of a timeframe because our monitoring and compliance system is not sufficient. What we would be seeking is that this 20-year licence be enacted across the aquaculture sector, but there needs to be a proper monitoring and compliance protocol and process that underpins that. Part of that means the legislative reform is needed that would underpin that system. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pat the Cope Gallagher","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pat-the-Cope-Gallagher.D.1981-06-30","memberCode":"Pat-the-Cope-Gallagher.D.1981-06-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pat the Cope Gallagher  I note that the situation in the past was that the notice had to be available in Garda stations. We are past all that. Maybe in the old days there was a garda in the station all the time. Now - and this is with no disrespect to any rural Garda station - when you try to get a passport form signed the stations are not open. There should be another way. Perhaps with the co-operation of the local authorities it could be available in the local authority and if they have offices in the various municipal districts it should be in the municipal districts in which the application applies. We will raise that with the Minister. It is not rocket science but it would be pragmatic to do that. The general public should know as well. It is not just enough to put it online because not everybody is on the web. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor D. McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Ms Dubsky wanted to respond to that as well. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Karin Dubsky","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Karin Dubsky  On this last point, I totally agree. The Garda station one is no longer apt and it should be online in the same system as the local authorities have for planning, which is a very nice public system that everybody knows where you can also get an alert if something happens in your area. We would really like to see that. I totally agree. Many other points were raised to which I am sure we would also like to react. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor D. McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  There is a couple of seconds left before we go to the next speaker. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Elaine McGoff","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Elaine McGoff  Very quickly, I agree with my colleagues in the IFA that we need more resources going into the decision-making bodies. If we look at the forestry licensing for which An Taisce is the prescribed body, it aims to make a decision - though it is not necessarily living up to this - in between six and nine months. If we look at the planning system, An Bord Plean\u00e1la, say, two years ago, was not in great shape. It has come on in leaps and bounds. Where there is a will there is a way. The now An Coimisi\u00fan Plean\u00e1la is making incredible complicated decisions quite quickly now and that is because the resources were put into that because it reached that critical level. I would echo that call for more resources into the decision-making bodies. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor D. McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I call Deputy Mac Lochlainn. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Mac Lochlainn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy P\u00e1draig Mac Lochlainn  This area of aquaculture licensing has bedevilled our people for a long time. I have personally participated in God knows how many sessions where we have had the Ministers and the Department of the marine, ALAB and the Marine Institute in again and again. My frustration is that the evidence today from our witnesses is that we still do not have a system that is fair, efficient, timely, open and clear to all. Obviously, we will have an opportunity to engage with the Department on this and we will probe all this through with its officials.  I want to ask both groups today, IFA Aquaculture and SWAN, what the level of consultation with their organisations has been. The legislation clearly does not strike the right balance, according to the evidence given by both groups. Before we got to this point, what consultation was there with the Department officials who drafted the legislation? Did they meet with the organisations face to face, and when? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Karin Dubsky","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Karin Dubsky  There was zero. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Elaine McGoff","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Elaine McGoff  They did not engage with us at all in writing, in seeking meetings. I did not know this was even in the works. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Karin Dubsky","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Karin Dubsky  On our side, we have applied for the past 20 years for various changes in writing. They know there is a real interest. We were not asked about this. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Elaine McGoff","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Elaine McGoff  Does the Deputy mean on these specific amendments? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Mac Lochlainn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy P\u00e1draig Mac Lochlainn  On the amendments they have introduced, have they met and engaged? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Elaine McGoff","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Elaine McGoff  Not on these specific amendments. We have engaged with the Department in general on proposed changes to the licensing system, which is entrenched in the licensing review and those recommendations. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Mac Lochlainn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy P\u00e1draig Mac Lochlainn  Obviously the Department gets submissions and we would expect they would have noted them. Essentially they have just said, \"here are our amendments\". That is our job, in fairness, as a committee. I will make a statement and get the witnesses' sense of it. In a democracy, people have a right to object. We have a framework of laws and directives, both national and European. It is a bit like planning permission on land. The difference to me is that there is a clear timeframe. I said earlier to my colleagues that if I apply for planning permission on land, I know roughly how long it will take the local authority. If it goes to An Coimisi\u00fan Plean\u00e1la I have a fair sense it, or if I am investing as a business or whatever. It is not unreasonable for us to want whatever decision is made to be made in a timely fashion, so everybody knows where they stand. I want to get the witnesses' sense of the resourcing. My view is that the Marine Institute and the aquaculture licences appeals board, ALAB, are not adequately resourced to make decisions in a timely fashion. Is that a fair assessment? I will ask IFA Aquaculture to respond first, and then SWAN. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Finian O'Sullivan","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Finian O'Sullivan  We were aware that section 19A(4) was to go. We had discussions with the Department officials around that. We did not have an insight into the wording or how it was going to be replaced. Let us not forget that this amendment is about section 19A(4) really. We have continuously brought it back to the aquaculture licensing review in 2017, which suggested a root-and-branch reform of the whole Act. Then we had the Kieran Mulvey report, which recommends comprehensive changes to be made as well. The reform needs to be comprehensive. That report calls for a Department of the marine that totally deals with the marine, and refers to legislative consolidation. There are a lot of statutory instruments, Acts and European directives that impact on aquaculture. Mr. Mulvey spoke about consolidation of stuff like that and engagement with the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment as well, because they have a big role to play on the marine side of things now.  We do not see the resources going into it. We have been harping on about this for a long time. Deputy Mac Lochlainn and Deputy Gallagher has been saying that two years is a long time, even now, to be looking down the line. We feel the commitment is not there for an aquaculture industry. They may find it difficult to implement the policies. We have policies but we have not got the implementation or the resources. We do not see that the Marine Institute is getting the resources or that the Department has the resources. We have Bord Iascaigh Mhara promoting the industry on one side, but at the end of the day the resources do not seem to be coming up behind to promote it. That is where the whole thing falls down. The young people see it as a dead duck industry from that point of view. There are a few allied people, like my own son and the likes of Mr. Hunter, who are interested in the industry, but how long more will that go on?  People move on. Young people cannot see any point in waiting ten or 20 years for a licence or whatever. There are some licences that long. I know that in my bay at the moment there are probably people waiting four or five years for the renewal on shellfish and stuff. The resources are not going into the industry, or into the whole area of legislative reform. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. John Murphy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. John Murphy  Salmon Watch Ireland was the originator of the complaint to the EU in 2020 regarding section 19 and we welcome that it is going to be repealed, with a lot of reservations. With regard to the actual people involved in looking at all of these licences, it is probably not resourced correctly. All we have to do is look at the Aquaculture Licences Appeal Board, ALAB. There is no wild fishing interest on that. Even though the legislation provides for that, there has not been a wild fish interest on it for a long time.  The Marine Institute is basically relying on old science. There is new science that demonstrates quite unequivocally the impact of sea lice on wild salmonids. Whether it is resourced adequately or whether the people who are deciding on these are relying on outdated science, we would just like to bring that to the attention of the committee. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Mac Lochlainn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy P\u00e1draig Mac Lochlainn  In summary, the evidence from both witnesses is that they are not adequately resourced to make decisions in a timely fashion and the legislation creates more vagaries in that regard. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Noonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Malcolm Noonan  I thank the witnesses. It is disappointing that there has not been meaningful engagement, particularly as this originated from a complaint by Salmon Watch. The point here is that we will get more robust legislation if we have good environmental rigour in the Bill. I think that is important. On that point, with the additional information provided by Salmon Watch, would Mr. Murphy have a comment on the point around head 14 and the use of language such as \"have regard to\" rather than expressly stating \"compliance with\"? It needs to be strengthened with regard to language. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. John Murphy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. John Murphy  Absolutely. I do not know if the phrase \"have regard to\" is an actual legal term. There should be an amendment that it has to expressly require compliance with applicable EU environmental obligations.  Section 61 of this amendment should expressly reference the water framework directive, the marine strategy framework, the habitats directive and the environmental impact assessment directive. It should expressly require the consideration of a water body's status under the Natura 2000 conservation objectives and an ecosystem-based approach.  We think there should be a clearer statutory environmental purpose to improve the consistency and legal robustness of the decisions of the Minister and ALAB. There are decisions being made. A decision was made recently regarding the Deenish Island salmon farm in County Kerry. A bland statement that this would have no effect on the wild fisheries was issued. I would like to say that the people of Waterville would not say that the salmon farm in that vicinity is not having an effect. It is a having a detrimental effect. We are talking here about the economy. The angling tourism economy was a huge producer of income for the local business population and that has effectively vanished. There are maybe some other factors involved, but we would suggest that the salmon farming industry is really responsible for that fall-off in tourist revenue and economic activity in the area. It appears in that decision that there was no investigation, for want of a better word, to look at wild fisheries down there.  A bland statement saying this has had no effect on wild fisheries is absolutely disgraceful. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor D. McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I remind witnesses in particular to be careful when referring to any enterprise in any way that might be identifiable. We are here to give evidence to committee members, not to make claims that might be disproven or contested. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Noonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Malcolm Noonan  I will direct my second question to Mr. Murphy. It is in relation to head 17 and the ministerial power where environmental harm occurs or is likely. I note that Salmon Watch Ireland welcomes that, but that ALAB has the power to suspend or revoke that amendment. Is that something he thinks should not be there? Does he believe that if a Minister makes a decision it should be binding and the operations should not be allowed to continue? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. John Murphy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. John Murphy  The operations should not be allowed to continue. One of the biggest factors in this is that there is a removal of the stay pending appeal. Under section 14 of the Fisheries Act, once an appeal is lodged and it is determined, a stay is put on the licence and the operator cannot operate until the appeal process is exhausted. That can take the ALAB situation and the High Court if necessary. It is not our NGO\u2019s fault that it is taking an inordinate amount of time for ALAB or the High Court to make a decision on this. The stay has to stay. It is madness that if a licence is given \u2013 in fairness we cannot and it must be contrary to some EU laws - a justifiable appeal on environmental grounds must apply a stay, as it does in the original legislation. That amendment cannot go through. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Noonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Malcolm Noonan  I have a few more questions. In the supplementary information provided by SWAN and An Taisce, there is a reference to the \u201cBirds Case\u201d which was the longest-running case against an EU member state. It was against Ireland. This does not go far enough to address the concerns brought about in that case. Will Dr. McGoff elaborate on that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Elaine McGoff","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Elaine McGoff  I am happy to. If we look at the correspondence between Ireland and the Commission in the \u201cBirds Case\u201d, it categorically said it would revoke section 19A(4). There is no qualification; it states it will be revoked. What this does is not that. It revokes it in one section and then puts it back in with slight qualification. Under heads 7 and 8, it says that if you have applied for a licence prior to or within two years of the commencement of this, section 19A(4) still applies. Similarly, section 19B qualifies that if the Minister has managed to make a decision within two years, section 19A(4) still applies. They add the qualification that the Minister will make a determination about whether it will impact on the environment or not. That is incredibly problematic. We question what evidence the Minister is relying on, what data, where fair procedure is, and whether there is public participation. For the Minister to claim there will be no environmental impact, he or she would essentially have had to carry out the environmental assessments; the environmental impact assessment, EIA, if applicable, or the appropriate assessment, AA. Anything short of that is not compliant with EU law.  If, for example, there were an aquaculture operator who was refused because the Minister made an impromptu determination, that would be open to judicial review. What legally robust grounds has he relied on? Similarly, if a licence is granted to an agricultural operator, the likes of An Taisce or other environmental non-governmental organisations, ENGOs would be liable to judicially review that because what is the evidence base? There is no evidence base. It is like solving one problem and creating a whole host of others. If this goes through it is going to be a nightmare for both ENGOs and aquaculture operators. It very much muddies the waters. From our perspective, legally, this is incredibly problematic and does not comply with what we said we would do in the first case. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Cahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Cahill  I, too, welcome our guests and thank them for their statements. My first question is to Ms Armshaw. Is she aware or has she heard of issues pertaining to the Killarney wastewater treatment system and its impact on the Killarney lakes?  That arose during the summer. It was in the media in Kerry. I submitted representations to the Minister, parliamentary questions, etc.  I will move on. I am glad Mr. Murphy raised the controversial salmon farm in Waterville. The renewal of the licence has already had, and will continue to have, devastating consequences on the local hospitality sector, including bed and breakfast accommodation, hotels, restaurants and so on. I know for an absolute fact that there were over 20 boats there at one stage, but there are now only one or two. You would be lucky to see one or two today. I am aware there has been a very sharp decline in wild sea trout and wild salmon and rising levels of sea lice infestation. The local community are extremely concerned because this was their bread and butter in a rural part of my county.  I will again raise the matter of aquaculture licences and the lack of progress in their processing. It is preventing small businesses from applying for grant aid. In many cases, people are waiting for two, five, ten or 20 years or longer. We all know that at this stage. The unprofessionalism in this area is totally unacceptable. Where licences have expired, their renewal is preventing the expansion of small businesses and job creation. It is yet another dagger in the heart of coastal communities that are already dying. We discuss this at every single meeting. How long more will this scandal be allowed to continue? We need a licensing system that is fit for purpose. It is currently not. Since my election to D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann, there has been zero progress. It is an embarrassment. There is no other word for it. It is a disgrace.  Are appeals taking too long? I know they are, but that is my opinion. Should appeals be confined to those directly involved? I will touch on something that may be a little controversial. I know what is happening with regard to draft salmon licences. There are only a handful left in my constituency. There are 11 left in Cromane and three in Brandon. The State acquired the rest many years ago when it bought out licences. The numbers people are allowed to catch have been significantly reduced on an almost annual basis.  I live on a beach on the coastline and am familiar with the industry because it is not too far away from me in Cromane. It is one of the oldest fishing traditions of all. I am convinced that the seal will take more salmon any day than all of the fishermen. I have huge sympathy for what is left in this area for the simple reason that it has been people's livelihood and that of their fathers, grandfathers and great-grandfathers, going down through the generations. I am supportive of these fishermen. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor D. McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  To whom was the question on resources directed? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Cahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Cahill  My first question was an inquiry about Killarney wastewater treatment. The witnesses may not have any knowledge on that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. John Murphy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. John Murphy  I have, being from the local area. The EPA has initiated a programme to expand or improve water quality in the area. The stream that it flows into is called the Folly stream and goes directly into the lake. It is in a disgraceful condition and we have that in our national park in front of tourist interests, leaving aside what it is doing to the lake and Laune - I think the Laune is rated as poor quality water. Addressing that has to be expedited, along with other issues involving aquaculture, including septic tanks and the catchment of the area. I was glad to hear that the EPA has flagged it as an issue. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Teresa Morrissey","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Teresa Morrissey  Could I make a short comment? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor D. McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  After we hear the reply, there will be a short time then. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Karin Dubsky","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Karin Dubsky  Deputy Cahill raised a lot of questions. One of them relates to what Deputy Mac Lochlainn said about democracy and waiting for licences for a long time. The sea is our commons. Therefore, it is the one area where we have to have exceptionally good management but we do not. We do not have any coastal zone management. We have a flaw in our system which will be repeated. The legislation states that the Minister will commence certain sections when he sees fit. Under the old law, the four-month period was not commenced. That is why there are long waits. To avoid making that mistake again, if the Minister has the power to commence a section, at least let there be an annual review of what was and was not commenced. That would be very important.  On the Deputy's view that only those who are directly affected should be open to appeal, that should absolutely not be the case. These are our commons. Coastwatch is often asked to come in because local people involved in a small application from a small area feel very awkward about potentially appealing against a neighbour. It is important that the option to be allowed to submit an appeal from elsewhere is retained. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Teresa Morrissey","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Teresa Morrissey  On the Deputy's comments on sea lice and his inference regarding one particular salmon farm, I want to make him aware that there is a national sea lice monitoring programme and the data is published monthly. I suggest he has a look at that before making such comments because the data would not back up what he said. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor D. McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Thank you.  I have a couple of questions and we will then have a second round. The first is for both sets of witnesses. I will put it to the IFA first. I refer to the aquaculture licensing review in 2017 and the recommendations therein. To what extent does the IFA see those recommendations reflected in this legislation? To what extent has the drafting of the legislation missed the recommendations? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Teresa Morrissey","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Teresa Morrissey  To be blunt, it does not address them at all. It could be argued that it addresses them in some way in that it is legislative reform, but it is not actually reforming anything. Rather, it is dealing with a very specific problem around section 19A(4) that has been highlighted, along with some further proposals around enforcement, dovetailing the foreshore licence. The licensing review recommendations called, first and foremost, for a reform of the legislation, effectively a new Act. This is not it. These are amendments to the existing----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor D. McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Is it a missed opportunity? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Teresa Morrissey","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Teresa Morrissey  Definitely. As we said in our opening statement, all of the licensing review recommendations need to be examined to determine where they may fit into any further amendments that are required because that is true legislative reform.  These amendments are not dealing with the core issue of licensing. They will not deal with the existing backlog of renewals we are waiting on, with the issues with getting appropriate assessments completed, with environmental assessments or with the further legislation or directives that have come down from the European Union over the past ten, 15 or 20 years. There is a lot of work there.  I acknowledge we have had discussions with the Department. We are looking at root-and-branch reform, while they are looking at amendments. We have had discussions with them but we are continuing to look for root-and-branch reform. Unless we have the licensing structure and system underpinning the whole thing, we will never make progress. That is progress we would all agree on. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor D. McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  If Ms Morrissey was starting a piece of legislation from scratch, would the recommendations from 2017 be the starting point? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Teresa Morrissey","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Teresa Morrissey  Yes. Those recommendations are nearly ten years old but are still valid today. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor D. McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Thank you. I put the same question to SWAN about the recommendations of the aquaculture licensing review. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Karin Dubsky","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Karin Dubsky  I did not revise them now but at the time I thought most of the 2017 recommendations were quite reasonable. I would add that we have moved on. We now have nature restoration law, which has huge potential, and maritime spatial planning, which we did not have then. We need to put things into that wider frame. There is expertise among aquaculture operators on the ground, particularly in the bivalve sector and in seaweed. It would be very wise to use that for nature restoration law. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor D. McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I think I got the answer to this from the facial expressions when I put the question to IFA, but would SWAN agree this is a missed opportunity? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Karin Dubsky","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Karin Dubsky  Yes. The only thing to add is that as the European Commission is pushing quite hard for the deletion of section 19A(4), if any amendment is made, that should be made now, and then making it as it is. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor D. McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I think we have broad consensus that this is a missed opportunity on the part of the Government and that the recommendations from 2017, notwithstanding the changes in the legislative and regulatory environment in the nine years the recommendations have stayed on the shelf, would be a good starting point for the Minister to reconsider the approach to this. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Noonan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Malcolm-Noonan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Malcolm Noonan  This point goes back to Mr. Murphy's contribution, SWAN's submission and a point Ms Dubsky made on referencing the nature restoration regulation. It has to be the cross-over and interface of all these. That is hugely important. The witnesses think the recommendation around including specific reference to those is a vital part of this legislation.  The next point relates to the public participation obligations, particularly where a full EIA is required for finfish. There is no reference to the public participation directive in this. Is that correct? Do the witnesses think that should be a central component of it? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Elaine McGoff","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Elaine McGoff  Whenever an EIA takes place, there is a strict legal obligation for public participation. However, when heads 7 and 8 talk about the Minister making his determination as to whether something will be environmentally impactful, there is no reference to public participation. It is not clear from the heads that it is envisaged - it is not clear from the heads what they intend by this at all, in fact. In the information we sent on, case law says the Minister cannot rely on previous environmental assessments that have gone out of date. I am left with more questions than answers by reading this. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Mac Lochlainn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy P\u00e1draig Mac Lochlainn  All the witnesses have been before the committee a number of times and have made submissions. Some will say the salmon-farming industry should come to an end, while the industry will say it produces organic salmon to the highest standards and there is rigorous oversight. The committee's job is not to adjudicate on the rights and wrongs of that; our job is to ensure in this legislation there is appropriate balance found and decisions are made in a timely fashion. I want us to focus on that.  A number of things are clear today. The level of consultation with the stakeholders was not what it should have been, despite the fact there were very intensive sessions with a previous Minister for the marine, Michael Creed, and his officials, looking at the independent report into what was happening with aquaculture. We still do not have these recommendations implemented in legislation.  I am concerned this is a missed opportunity. We are not asking the witnesses to agree - they obviously will not agree - on the merits or demerits of the industry; we are here to look at the planning process and legal framework. I find it exasperating. The committee will do our own report and make our own recommendations. When it comes through, some of us may put in additional amendments to the legislation and seek to progress it. I would not encourage contributions that focus on the merits or demerits of the industry. We have already received very strong submissions. The issue is whether this will address the balance that needs to be found in terms of the timeframes. It is clear from the evidence that this is a deficient series of amendments and more needs to be done.  I am not looking for a response. I just wanted to make that commentary and to thank everybody for coming in today. There has been a lot of food for thought. We will seek to strengthen the legislation and not make it a missed opportunity. We look forward to strong engagement next week with the relevant Department and so on. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Teresa Morrissey","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Teresa Morrissey  Can I come in with a short comment on that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor D. McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I would like to give a couple of moments to each set of witnesses to conclude. We will start with SWAN and finish with IFA. That can include Ms Morrissey's response. The witnesses can summarise their main points in conclusion. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. John Murphy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. John Murphy  One of the amendments we would like to see is the historic environmental performance, especially for renewals. We have a situation now in the country with climate change and whatever. I think I have circulated it to the committee. There seems to be extreme mortalities on salmon farms. I will not identify the location but it was all over the Sunday papers. There would appear to be excessive mortality on salmon farms, up to 50%. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Mac Lochlainn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy P\u00e1draig Mac Lochlainn  A Chathaoirligh, with respect, I just made a statement about the merits and demerits of the industry. I have asked people to focus on the process. They will not convince members here today. Some members will agree with Mr. Murphy; some will agree with IFA aquaculture. I do not think it is productive to continually bring in particular sites. We have had it now three or four times. I have ignored it but cannot continue to ignore it. It is inappropriate. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor D. McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Thanks, Deputy, I take your point. I was waiting to see what direction Mr. Murphy was going in with that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. John Murphy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. John Murphy  I am not going in any direction. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Mac Lochlainn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy P\u00e1draig Mac Lochlainn  It brings the committee into disrepute if you keep doing it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor D. McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  If Mr. Murphy says he will not identify a particular site and then says it was on the front page of Sunday newspapers, it is not beyond the realms of possibility that people will look back and identify a site. I do not know what he was going to say about the site he was trying not to identify----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. John Murphy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. John Murphy  I am not going to say anything; I am just saying there should be----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor D. McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  -----but just to caution him that doing that does not skirt around the rules I read out at the beginning of the meeting. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. John Murphy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. John Murphy  Okay. There should be----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor D. McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Mr. Murphy, with respect, when I am speaking----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. John Murphy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. John Murphy  Sorry. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor D. McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  -----you might show a bit of courtesy and decorum and listen to me. Now you may come back in. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. John Murphy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. John Murphy  I am just saying that there should be an amendment in the legislation which looks at historical environmental performance, especially for renewals. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor D. McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Thank you. The point is made and understood. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Karin Dubsky","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Karin Dubsky  I would agree with the general gist of letting us only make amendments or would ask whether the most immediate amendments could be made. As for the current sections in the old Act which have not been commenced, can they be commenced or the Government asked why they have not been commenced? More effort should be put into actually doing the environmental surveys properly on the ground, not as desk studies, and then giving the licences or not giving them and putting in proper enforcement. Then we need to look at the wider frame of maritime spatial planning and where aquaculture and nature restoration law fit as another stage. That law will probably take longer, and therefore, some amendments should probably go through, but not to try to get everything through and make some additional ones. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Teresa Morrissey","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Teresa Morrissey  I will come back to what Deputy Mac Lochlainn mentioned a few minutes ago about the licensing review and a missed opportunity and the lengthy process of engagement that went on nine years ago. We have had lengthy processes on engagement on several fronts to deal with licensing, the licensing system and proposed amendments. Even in recent years, we have had two task forces in the last three or four years for the seafood industry, but our main modus operandi all the time is to deal with the licensing system and to make it more efficient. We are constantly making our case on that. We have set out our stall numerous times to the current Minister, previous Ministers, the Department and all the agencies on that front. I might ask Mr. Hunter to give the perspective of someone who is looking to make a future in the industry and how difficult that could be. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Lee Hunter","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Lee Hunter  I got my first licence in 2016, so this year it is now in for renewal. Knowing that there is no end date as to when that could go through and when it could be processed makes it really difficult to even think on the future. I am lucky that I come from a family where I grew up within the aquaculture industry but that was because they were forced into the aquaculture industry as I am the first generation of four generations to not become a fisherman. Being from that coastal community, I still wanted to stick by the sea. Quite a few Ministers, and even SWAN have also said that fishing is such an important thing to our coastal communities. Aquaculture is now, and it needs to be, and it needs to be the future within these coastal communities to keep people here. For someone my age, immigration is the only other option when it comes to our local areas. It is disheartening to see that I cannot make that decision to stay in the country and in my coastal community without the system failing or at least not working.  As I said, my first application went through in 2016 and is now up for renewal. The legislative reform review was in 2017 and at this point I already have gone through a licence. It would be great to see this missed opportunity we have identified here today whereby some more amendments or even the full review can be pushed forward so that people like me and people who may be interested like me, can actually move forward and have a future in our coastal communities. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor D. McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Thank you very much. I thank all our witnesses and members for their participation here today. I assure Mr. Hunter and all the witnesses that this is the first of two meetings where we will be scrutinising this draft Bill. We will be digesting all the testimony we have gathered and our analysis thereof, and we will be feeding that into the process. Rest assured that the concerns of SWAN and the matters raised by the IFA have all been heard here.  I think all of our witnesses, barring Mr. Hunter, have been here before so I thank them for their continued participation in this forum. Mr. Hunter is welcome and I thank him for giving that particular perspective of a young person living by the coast. It is very valuable.  As there is are no further matters to discuss, today's meeting of the joint committee stands adjourned until 29 September 2026. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an comhchoiste ar athl\u00f3 ar 1.05 p.m. go dt\u00ed 11 a.m., D\u00e9 M\u00e1irt, an 29 Me\u00e1n Fomhair 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The joint committee adjourned at 1.05 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 29 September 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"General Scheme of the Fisheries (Amendment) Bill 2026: Discussion"}]}}]},"contextDate":"2026-09-22"},{"debateRecord":{"house":{"showAs":"Joint Committee on Artificial Intelligence","committeeCode":"joint_committee_on_artificial_intelligence","houseCode":"dail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/committee\/dail\/34\/joint_committee_on_artificial_intelligence","chamberType":"committee","houseNo":"34"},"chamber":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/def\/committee","showAs":"Joint Committee on Artificial Intelligence"},"lastUpdated":"2026-09-24T14:30:26+00:00","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/joint_committee_on_artificial_intelligence\/2026-09-22\/debate\/main","formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/joint_committee_on_artificial_intelligence\/2026-09-22\/debate\/mul@\/main.xml"},"pdf":null},"date":"2026-09-22","counts":{"contributorCount":10,"divisionCount":0,"debateSectionCount":1,"questionCount":0,"billCount":0},"debateType":"debate","debateSections":[{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/joint_committee_on_artificial_intelligence\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_2","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"AI and the Environment: Discussion (Resumed)","counts":{"speechCount":172,"speakerCount":11},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. David Jensen","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Laura Harmon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Johnny Mythen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Johnny-Mythen.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Johnny-Mythen.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  We have apologies from Senator Lynn Ruane. Senator Higgins will be substituting for her this morning.  I advise members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who have given evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentations they make to this committee. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty, as Chair, to ensure this privilege is not abused. If their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, I will direct them to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.  Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.  I welcome everybody back to our first meeting following the summer recess. We are continuing on the topic of artificial intelligence, AI, and the environment. It is a very important theme and I am glad we can continue to discuss it here today. We are joined by Ms Rosi Leonard, data centres campaign lead, and Ms Deirdre Duffy, CEO, both from Friends of the Earth; and also Mr. David Jensen, who is joining online from Geneva. Mr. Jensen is a former global regional co-ordinator for digital transformation with the United Nations Environment Programme and he has over 20 years' experience in institutional strategy on digital and AI-enabled transformation. The witnesses are all very welcome here today.  I invite Friends of the Earth to deliver its opening statement. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  I thank the Chair. We welcome the opportunity to address the committee today. We note that AI as a whole means a number of different tools and applications with varying degrees of public benefit.  AI meets pollution and climate policy most directly through data centres. As the International Energy Agency has acknowledged, the main driver of data centre demand is inefficient and bloated generative AI models.  The model of hyper-scale data centre expansion in Ireland comes with real costs for the electricity system, our climate, our energy bills, our ability to decarbonise our public services and, crucially, the communities who have to live beside these developments. These risks are being exacerbated by current Government policy, but with political will we believe we can mitigate those risks. I will speak to three immediate recommendations in that regard.  It is our view that a moratorium on new data centre development is urgent and legitimate as a policy measure, justifiable in the interests of energy security, reducing bills and fulfilling decarbonisation and climate objectives. We recommend that a prioritisation framework for electricity connections based on societal need is introduced, similar to that of Denmark. The European efficiency directive should be transposed with urgency in order to provide greater transparency on the resource use and impacts of existing data centres. Ireland is now faced with an active infringement case in the EU due to its failure to transpose this directive. Operators face no penalties for failing to submit data.  Looking beyond a moratorium, we believe that data centres should only be permitted where they meet strict conditions around bringing 24-7 additional hourly matched renewables with limitations on water use, overall size and clear justification for build-out.  As members of this committee know well, Ireland is currently regarded as a cautionary tale by the UN when it comes to data centre development. Despite this, we are now entering a worrying era of hyper-scale build-out in Ireland. There is over 700 MW of data centre development in the planning stage around the country. Applications such as these in the planning process represent a potential 11% increase in the country's peak electricity demand. This is potentially the same as adding a county the size of Cork to our grid in the next two to three years. The market intelligence exercise from the Commission for Regulation of Utilities, CRU, suggests further potential demand of 5.8 GW from data centres, which would potentially double the peak demand of this island.  We need to be clear that the need for this additional demand is not clear. There is mounting evidence that many existing data centres are not at capacity. As European think-tank SOMO has pointed out, the assumption that Europe faces an imminent shortage of data centre capacity remains contested. Figures from Europe, particularly the Netherlands, indicate that providers may in some cases be less than two thirds full. Furthermore, the European Commission has noted that the ongoing expansion of data centre capacity in the EU is driven by non-European cloud service providers. Not only is this rationale for the level of build-out highly speculative, but it is unlikely that the demand is being created solely for the needs of communities or services in Europe. This is now having an effect on our electricity bills. Research recently commissioned by Friends of the Earth shows that an additional \u20ac715 million was added to household bills as a result of the scale of data centre build-out that we have seen in Ireland. This model of development is oppositional to our climate targets and hyper-scale development is locking in a new era of fossil gas in Ireland, a relationship which we believe is being baked into these policies. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Deirdre Duffy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Deirdre Duffy  I note that Gas Network Ireland's own projections confirm that industrial demand, driven primarily by data centres, is now the main source of sustained gas reliance in Ireland and that a further 17 industrial customers, many of which are data centres, are seeking connections to the gas network. The most serious impact for us here in Ireland of this additional gas demand is the push towards new, expensive, uncosted fossil infrastructure, such as the liquefied natural gas, LNG, terminal planned for Shannon, which will have serious costs to environmental health and our energy independence.  On renewables, the current scale and pace of data centre development prevents renewables from displacing gas on the system and that is a critical issue. As the Climate Change Advisory Council notes, data centres are at risk of cannibalising renewables on the grid. There is currently no mechanism by which clean energy can be prioritised for housing, schools, hospitals or transport over data centres.  Moving to the narrative of the twin transition, we at Friends of the Earth are questioning how other countries can build out renewables without this seismic trade-off of allowing data centres to consume one quarter of the national grid. Importantly, this unchecked expansion without democratic consent has consequences for public faith in the energy transition. In our experience of working directly with communities facing these large data centre build-outs, it is exacerbating fears regarding renewables and compounding underlying anxiety about the loss of farmland; for example, the use of land and access to nature. We are worried that this could lead to further delays to renewables.  On data centres and gas lock-in, and the issue of AI becoming more efficient or increasing capacity, we note from organisations such as Enabled Emissions that AI is being used to increase fossil fuel extraction and oil drilling, so it is increasing emissions globally. We welcome a discussion with the committee on the appropriate use of AI. Expanding data centre build-out on the basis of supposed benefits from AI, without the regulatory clarity and significant constraints on what this AI is ultimately being used for, has a serious cost.  I will make a final note referencing the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, who has very clearly stated that we as a country are committed to transitioning away from fossil fuels and towards clean energy. We would make the case that the Government's current model for data centre expansion delivers the very opposite. We have a huge opportunity to build clean energy for the public good and to have a healthy, pollution-free world, yet the current policy is moving us in the opposite direction. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank Ms Duffy and Ms Leonard for their opening statement. I now invite Mr. David Jensen to provide his opening statement. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. David Jensen","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. David Jensen  I thank the Chair and the members of the committee for this invitation to appear before them today and for the chance to bring them this short statement.  I want to zoom out a little bit. If you ask the average person on the street about the relationship between AI and the environment, it is likely that most people would call out data centres. It is the most obvious relationship between the two. Of course, Ireland, as was mentioned, is a case where there are 129 data centres consuming a massive amount of energy, carbon and water. However, other people on the street might say it is data centres but, in fact, it is also mobile masts and cell towers. In Ireland, according to statistics, there are around 9,000 mobile masts and cell towers across the country and they have their own land and nature footprint. Other people might say that it is actually e-waste. There are 10.8 million user devices across Ireland and that is generating a huge amount of e-waste in order for people to access these AI services.  The fact of the matter is that they are all right. All of these are correct answers in regard to the relationship between AI and the environment, but my main point today is that this is only the tip of the iceberg on this relationship. Today, I want to walk this committee through the full environmental ledger of AI and I want to divide it into three parts. The first we have already heard about: the negative environmental footprint of AI, which it leaves directly through data centres, towers and e-waste. The second, which was sort of touched on a little bit in the first statement, is the positive handprint of change that AI can enable elsewhere in the economy. The third level is really what is called system effects, which can erode or even reverse the positive handprint. I will discuss these three components: the footprint, the handprint and the system effects. I will then close with six concrete steps this committee can potentially take.  Let us start with the negative footprint. We all know that Dublin and Ireland host one of the largest concentrations of data centres in Europe. We already know the statistics around electricity consumption - 23% in 2025, generating 1.53 million tonnes of CO2 in 2023 alone, which is about 2.5% of Ireland's total greenhouse gas emissions and a significant footprint. We also know that data centres in Ireland are currently consuming around 1 billion litres of water per year. We know that consumption doubles during the summer months. There are, however, many things we still do not know. We do not know how much e-waste is being generated, how much land is being converted, or how many critical minerals are being extracted from other countries for the chips, servers and digital infrastructure that makes all of the above possible. The footprint is clearly in Ireland and it is clearly local; it also extends beyond Ireland's borders but we cannot yet really say how. This is an important data and governance gap that needs to be filled. If we are ever going to truly calculate the footprint, we have to look at the full local, national and transboundary footprint. That is the footprint on the negative side.  On the other side of the ledger is the positive handprint. This is all about how AI is used to enable positive outcomes across all different sectors of the economy. From agriculture to transport, to energy, buildings, homes, industry, manufacturing and public administration, everything can be potentially enabled by AI.  However, it is important to understand whether AI accelerates or decelerates resource consumption and pollution. It can be either depending on how it is put to use. The French agency for ecological transition calls this AI for green versus AI for brown. Friends of the Earth already talked about an AI for brown example where AI is accelerating greenhouse gas production and fossil fuel extraction. This is where public incentives and investment are needed to steer the market toward AI for green solutions.  We are very fortunate that Ireland already has many real examples of how AI is being used in a positive sense to achieve different environmental outcomes. There are three we could mention but I am sure members of the committee could think of many more. In my research I looked at an example called VistaMilk, which is using different digital technologies and AI to do real-time methane sensing across the dairy industry. It has already helped to calculate downwards the current emissions baseline and it is being used as a critical tool in emissions----- "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(Interruptions)."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. David Jensen","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. David Jensen  We have seen EirGrid's AI forecasting tool, built with a technology called GridZero.ai, which is able to predict grid conditions 38 hours in advance, and research ongoing that is linked to the StopFloods4.ie project, which applies machine learning to flood risk. These are just a couple of examples of where AI is being used for good and to solve different environmental challenges.  The third part of the ledger is perhaps the most complicated; the system effects. This is how AI changes the broader economic system by making things more efficient, reducing prices and therefore potentially increasing demand. This is known as Jevons paradox or the rebound effect. In a nutshell, the efficiency often generates more consumption and that increased consumption can offset or even reverse the positive benefits I just described. The rebound effect is critical in understanding the trade-offs and this net balance between the positive handprint and the negative footprint.  This all sounds very complex but I am happy to report two new standards from the International Telecommunication Union, L.1480 and L.1801, that are helping governments do this net calculation between all three parts of this ledger. I am also happy to report there is now independent testing of L.1480 by the European Green Digital Coalition and France's environment agency, and real-world test cases are currently being done across 39 use cases. The results from these are fascinating. The enabling benefit for carbon dioxide reduction is orders of magnitude higher than the carbon dioxide footprint. The footprint is a small amount and the enabling mitigating effecting is a much larger one. There are significant positive effects even when the footprint is taken into account. That is what many of the case studies show but some also show the rebound effect can completely wipe out any of the positive environmental gains, so it is fundamental to look at that as well.  Getting the balance right between the footprint, the handprint and the system effects, and ensuring each is measured properly and netted against each other, is the core challenge of Ireland's twin transition in practice. We must also acknowledge these costs and benefits do not land evenly. As mentioned, local communities often carry the footprint while the economic and strategic benefits are national and often reach all the way to the EU or to the international goals. Any credible accounting has to work at all three scales, local, national and transboundary, and not just one.  I will conclude with six concrete steps the committee can take. Right now, the Commission for Regulation of Utilities connection policy only requires conditionality for renewable connections for electricity. This could be expanded to require disclosure of other forms of impact, such as on water, land, minerals and the creation of e-waste.  Therefore, extending beyond renewables to other potential impacts would be important.  The second step would be the application of net benefit calculations for any public environmental funding. Any project that receives State funding, whether it is a grant, procurement contract, development project or capital investment, that claims an environmental or efficiency outcome from AI solutions must substantiate that claim using the ITU-T L.1480 or L.1801 method. This is really meant to avoid the greenwashing we see a lot of, which suggests that AI is going to save the world. No, we need to make sure we are calculating using a standard international methodology and really looking at the potential net positive benefits.  The third intervention to potentially consider is to give the new AI Office of Ireland an explicit mandate for monitoring net environmental benefits from AI for Ireland. I understand the office has just been established as the AI Act's co-ordinating authority for the EU. Potentially, its mandate could be extended to add environmental disclosure and net accounting verification to its remit. If that is not the right place, perhaps there is another institution that could take on this equivalent function.  I have three more recommendations and then I will finish. The fourth recommendation is to amend the climate action plan of Ireland to require not just footprint reporting for large energy uses but also net accounting that looks at both the footprint and the positive handprint. This also extends into Ireland\u2019s reporting to the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change, UNFCCC, so that, obviously, any claimed digital contribution is verified using a standard.  Fifth, it would be fantastic if Ireland could publish its own audited case study on the application of ITU-T standard L.1480 or the application of ITU-T standard L.1801 so the next time this question comes before the committee, Ireland has actually more evidence from its own use cases, not only from elsewhere.  Finally, it is important to define, measure and report on the twin transition language that is included in Ireland\u2019s own strategies already in use. For example, Ireland\u2019s digital AI strategy talks about the twin green and digital transition but never defines it, measures it or reports on it. The next revision to that strategy should really come up with a twin transition strategy with very clear metrics and a very clear reporting framework.  In conclusion, I believe the committee does not need to choose between the promise and the cost; it needs the accounting that tells the difference between the two and it is the accounting that helps Ireland to get the twin transition right. I thank members very much for this intervention. I am happy to take questions as part of the discussion. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank Mr. Jensen. Members will have the opportunity to ask questions according to the rota. Members will have seven minutes each and if we have time, we will go around for a second round. As a reminder, it is seven minutes for questions and answers so members should please allow enough time for witnesses to answer within those seven minutes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  I thank everyone for being here today. It is great to be back in committees. My first question is for Friends of the Earth and is specifically around something the witnesses mentioned, which is capacity. I have a few things I would like to touch on today if I have the time. Ms Leonard mentioned the lack of clarity on data centre capacity in Europe. I would really love her to expand on that and tell me whether it is to do with operators not being forthcoming. Do national authorities monitor this use of data centres? If they were at 100%, would it increase their use of energy and water? As part of that as well, is there any way to get a figure or an approximation on how much data centre capacity and data centre energy capacity specifically is being used by generative AI versus data storage or other uses? We will start with that, please. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  No problem. That is a great question. On the first question on capacity, a lot of the detail emerging around data centres not being at capacity is basically coming from data that is being submitted through the energy efficiency directive, particularly within the Netherlands. Leitmotiv in the Netherlands has done analysis of what companies have been reporting and through that it is realising that possibly not all of these centres are at capacity. We have a real blind spot in Ireland because we have not transposed that directive. Therefore, we have no companies needing to report or facing penalties if they do not report on their energy use, their emissions and their water use. That, as a starting point, is vital. Ireland has the capacity to do that under Article 12 of that directive. It could be done tomorrow.  On the second question, in terms of what is being used for generative AI and what is not, it is extremely hard to tell, again, because companies do not disclose this detail.  The International Energy Agency stated that about half of the growth in the coming decade will be from accelerated servers. The proposals in Ireland at the moment are extremely large and I would be very interested in companies needing to justify why data centres use a quarter of our electricity in Ireland. There is perhaps a need for a national as well as a European database, so that we can examine the data that is submitted. There should be a little bit more interrogation of why it is needed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  Would the category of data mentioned give us intelligence around how much is being used for generative AI? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  No, not necessarily. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  That would have to be separate, either legislation----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  Yes "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  It sounds from the answer that they are not forthcoming and measures are required to get this information from national governments.  I will move on to twin transition, which is slightly connected. We heard a lot about twin transition in Government policies. It is something the witnesses have raised today. A lot of the wider harms done by technology often come back to the profit-driven nature of technology use. If AI slop is getting tech companies more revenue than weather prediction services, that is what they will pursue, with little regard for the social usefulness or environmental impact. I have worked in the tech sector; that is simply what happens in a profit-driven environment. Do the witnesses think a twin transition is possible in the current circumstances? There is no real mechanism or buy-in from tech companies and generative AI, which does not have the same environmental benefits, is driving the carbon footprint? Does that make sense? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Deirdre Duffy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Deirdre Duffy  It does. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  I will start with Ms Duffy and then ask Mr. Jensen to come in. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Deirdre Duffy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Deirdre Duffy  Issues raised by Mr. Jensen around heat usage and other metrics come under the EED directive. We are all agreed that more transparency, information and data will increase governance and accountability. On the twin transition, it is interesting to note whether a technological sector is being established for the public good, is prioritised for the public services we need or is being siphoned off to create more profit. Of course, the questions are always who benefits, owns and reaps rewards from what is happening.  There was some very interesting data published a couple of weeks ago in the TASC report around the use of generative AI in the 2026 Scottish election. It found that 34% of the information coming from generative AI chat bots was disinformation or inaccurate information. In the context that we are talking about twin transition, communities on the ground are organising resistance against data centres because they see how their land is being used. There not getting any benefit from it. They do not know who owns it or what it is using. It is to their detriment in terms of water in the summer time and the cost in their electricity bills. That is in addition to the fact that we do not know how much is being used in generative AI and the real harm it can cause. I hope that answers the question. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  Absolutely. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  The only additional point I would make is that we have not seen twin transition coming with data centres and renewables on the ground. It was acknowledged in this committee by Professor Hannah Daly, the SEAI and the Climate Change Advisory Council that renewables are being outstripped by data centre demand because the energy consumption of data centres is so high. If we want to seriously roll out this model, we would need to think about 24-7 renewables matched on an hourly basis. We also would need to think about energy caps because we cannot keep building data centres in the order of magnitude of entire towns overnight and expect renewables to pop up at the same time. It is not happening on the ground. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  I will give Mr. Jensen a chance to come in on that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. David Jensen","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. David Jensen  Can I come in on the first question before the second? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  Of course. There is a minute left. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. David Jensen","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. David Jensen  In terms of the AI load of data centres, it is roughly between 30% and 50%, but we do not know the how the figure breaks down in different forms of AI. We cannot necessarily say that generative AI is X percent. Generally speaking, AI as a percentage of workload is between 30% and 50% in data centres around the world globally. As the Deputy probably knows, 10% to 20% of AI relates to training and about 80% to 90% is around inference and using it day to day. That is the breakdown.  On the twin transition question, the answer is definitively \"No\".  The twin transition will not happen without regulation; absolutely not. There needs to be a regulatory push and incentives must be put in place to push it in that direction. That is exactly what I was hinting at, and it is exactly why standards are so important. There are a lot of false statements being made right now by tech companies that they are contributing to this twin transition, when, in fact, they are doing no such thing. That is why it is so important to have international standards and for governments to really require them. When a company makes a statement, there needs to be some kind of standard in place to enable that statement to be verified and validated. When the Government is issuing procurement contracts, part of those contracts should reference the standards that must be used if a firm is to be hired, with a requirement to report back on the net benefit of the technology. Without Government regulation, it is very clear that the twin transition will not happen. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  I thank Mr. Jensen. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Malcolm Byrne  My first question is for Mr. Jensen. I must admit to being quite a fan of his work and particularly of MapX. I was delighted to hear he was available to participate here today as a witness. The committee certainly should consider in more detail the six specific recommendations he outlined. I welcome that he is looking at the issue from a broader global perspective. From an energy efficiency point of view, when we look at how we use data storage over the decades, is it more efficient to use centralised data centres as opposed to distributing equivalent computing power around home, office and business servers? I am referring here to the general business model. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. David Jensen","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. David Jensen  That is a very difficult question. I have seen different studies done by Microsoft, IBM and Google suggesting it is more efficient to have centralised data centres because they involve state-of-the-art technology, algorithms that can optimise everything and all kinds of quality controls, whereas, with decentralised, old-school kinds of approaches, there is a real mix of technologies, differently aged equipment, etc. Of course, those studies are very biased, going in the companies' favour to further justify data centres. I must admit I have not seen studies that argue the opposite. There might be information on that but, to be frank, I have not looked into it. I have seen the positive confirmation that data centres are more efficient but it may be that there are other studies out there, which I have not seen, that suggest the opposite. The witnesses from Friends of the Earth might have something further to add in that regard. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Malcolm Byrne  I will come to them specifically on this point, which comes down to a crucial question. If the argument is that our data centres are using large amounts of energy, what is the alternative if we switch off those centres? Do we go back to a model of decentralised computing power? Data centres are not used in the abstract. We are all using data centres. In fact, Mr. Jensen appearing on a screen at this meeting today involves a data centre being used. People talk about a moratorium on data centres but that will not stop all the problems. We have had the debate about AI for good versus AI for bad. What is the alternative to data centres? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Deirdre Duffy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Deirdre Duffy  I do not disagree with the Deputy. We are using data centres and we are using AI. However, for us, as an environmental and social justice organisation, and, I believe, for every Member of the Oireachtas, all policy is now climate policy. We are at irreversible tipping points. Europe is the fastest-warming continent, as the Deputy knows, and we see the real-time impacts on people. Members will be discussing the budget in the next few weeks. Some 90% of our heating is dependent on fossil fuels. That is the context within which all policy must be made.  What we are seeing at the moment is that the data centre expansion is pushing us way off our climate ambition and climate targets. That is ultimately the issue for us in relation to a moratorium. If we can put a moratorium in place, we can calm down the pace for a little bit. There has been unchecked expanded growth over a number of years without regulation. A moratorium would allow us all to take a breath, figure out what we want to do, put the regulation in place and not repeat the same mistakes that happened previously.  Look at what is happening with social media at the moment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Malcolm Byrne  I am not disputing that but given the nature of the digitalisation of the economy and society, part of what has not been communicated to people is what exactly that means. That may mean that some of our daily interactions will be very significantly challenged. I argue that we have to continue to allow the expansion of data centres but it has to be linked to the development of renewable energies. One thing the Commission for Regulation of Utilities has stated very clearly to us here is that there is a big contribution by those data centres toward the development of the grid and that, in other words, when those data centres are being built they contribute towards the grid.  I have a problem with the idea that is presented that data centres are inherently evil and that we as humans, as individuals, as consumers and as businesses have no connection with them. We are all using data centres and we will continue to use them. A modern economy and society depend on them. The challenge, which comes to Mr. Jensen's point about AI for good, is about how we marry the increase in demand for energy, which is coming not just from data centres but from other areas, and get that from renewable sources. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  I will come in briefly on the efficiency argument because it is really interesting and I have seen companies make this claim. Mr. Jensen asked if we have seen evidence of this. Not really, to his point, it is very heavily biased and written by the companies themselves. In respect of the energy efficiency directive, which as I mentioned we have not transposed, the SEAI has warned that we will not meet that target. If we are talking about whether our data centres as they are being built right now are efficient, no. I would come back to the international----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Malcolm Byrne  Can I ask which is----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  Can I just finish my point, Deputy? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Malcolm Byrne  It comes back to this. Let me speak because, the critical question is whether our choice is toward the development of data centres or a distributed computing power model, which basically means every house and organisation will go back. I am pretty certain Friends of the Earth does not have a server in its office. The Houses of the Oireachtas do not have a server. I am quite certain the UN does not have servers; it uses data centres. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  One thing I would say again is that the International Energy Agency has stated the main driver of this demand is generative AI; it is not personal computing. The second point I will make seems quite interesting. The Houses of the Oireachtas did commission the building its own data centre in Kildare, which is 50 times less energy intensive than the data centre down the road. Are the private builds we are seeing in Ireland, which are in the order of magnitude that Professor Hannah Daly has already told this committee will contravene those climate targets, efficient? No. That has been demonstrated by the fact the Oireachtas has built a data centre that is significantly less energy intensive for the medium term uses of the Government than the private ones being built.  As Deputy Gibney pointed out, they have not justified it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Malcolm Byrne  We should allow it to happen in those circumstances. That is where I think, particularly in the context of the use of small language models and targeted AI, we have to allow for that AI. I do not dispute it and it comes back to some of Mr. Jensen's points around transparency and so on. We will continue to need to build that digital infrastructure and it is dishonest to say we will not need to. We can have a debate around certain types of it but I do not think that a moratorium is fair in the circumstances. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. David Jensen","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. David Jensen  Can I add to that point? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Mr. Jensen can answer briefly. We are just over time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. David Jensen","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. David Jensen  Very clearly, if there is a moratorium in Ireland the data centre companies will take their investment elsewhere. That is clear and where the capacity will come from. It could be a good idea to have a moratorium in the sense that it does not feel like there is a game plan in place as to what the actual, real footprints of data centres are. There are a lot of missing numbers right now. It could make sense to pause but the consequence of pausing is that investment could go elsewhere so it is a trade off. All of this is a trade off and that is something that has to be put on the table. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alice-Mary Higgins  I wanted to pull in a couple of the issues that came up. One relates to the energy efficiency directive and all of that information and the fact we are not getting it, as Ireland has not transposed the directive. I am a bit concerned now that we are discussing this new labelling system which is being talked about and which does not seem to be any kind of substitute for the actual data and information. Will the witnesses comment on the importance of having the actual information on water, carbon emissions and all of that and it not simply being a matter of there being yellow, blue and green badging attached?  I also wanted to look at PFAS materials because this is emerging as a major issue. I do not know if it is even captured under the energy-efficiency directive but it is another huge data gap. Research from Sweden and other places shows that there has been a very significant increase. There has been a rapid surge in PFAS as a climate use. I will not go into the full reports with the Swedish non-profit ChemSec. There are PFAS at every stage of the operation and production of data centres. That is an environmental issue on which we simply do not have data. Where we have data, it is worrying from an environmental climate impact perspective and in terms of the many negative health impacts of PFAS. Could the witnesses comment on that?  Regarding centralisation, which was mentioned earlier, it is interesting to note the example of Latvia. There are arguments about centralisation in terms of our public data. We hear that we are using these data centres in different ways. There is a lack of transparency regarding what is happening in data centres. Latvia has national public data centres that are owned and are separate to commercial operations and avoid the kind of diffuse vulnerabilities in terms of overexposure of our public data to data centre structures, which are really escalating at such a speed and have so many issues. Could the witnesses comment on the sensibleness of having that separation on that area?  I will comment not just on regulation but on LNG. We should talk about the elephant in the room and the fact that there was direct lobbying for LNG from the US, a country that has left the Paris Agreement and where major companies are headquartered. Amazon is building the largest gas refinery in the US in Texas. They have clearly moved. They literally said that they are in a different time now than they were in the past when they made climate commitments, and they have increased their emissions by 16%. The big companies are not just operating here in Ireland. What we see from the US might create a new requirement for caution here in terms of what this is fitting into and what political pressures and indeed backwards steps we are seeing not just within the US but being advocated for by the US elsewhere. Could the witnesses comment on that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  I might speak briefly on the Senator's first question on sustainability and labelling and maybe let Ms Duffy come in on LNG. We are seeing plans at EU level involving tripling data centre capacity and bringing in a sustainability labelling scheme as part of that. As the Senator mentioned, it is putting the horse before the cart as we have no idea of the sustainability metrics of data centres in Ireland because we have not enforced Article 12 of that directive. Mr. Jensen has spoken to that. This is basically why we argue for a moratorium. The lack of good data is creating a massive blind spot. We have heard warnings from multiple agencies. Putting a pause on new data centre development right now would be quite sensible and legitimate. We also have not talked about the cost issue. Data centres are becoming a cost-of-living issue in terms of how much they are increasing bills. Research is being published on that as we speak by Lynn Boylan MEP. It is a real blind spot. I do not think we should go in hard for a sustainability labelling scheme before we have basic information and before we have clear criteria around the need for additional 24-7 hourly matched renewables rather than just annually matched buying carbon credits from countries like Norway, which does not add to the stock of renewables in Ireland. Ms Duffy will come in on the LNG point. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Deirdre Duffy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Deirdre Duffy  It is well raised. We know from talking at the climate committee that one of the issues for LNG fossil fuel infrastructure relates to energy security. I do not think anyone can disagree that we need energy security, particularly at this time, and that citizens deserve it. What is not clear with the LNG roll-out is whether there has been a transparent and legitimate assessment around demand. Regarding data centres here, Red Admiral is building a data centre and a fossil gas plant next door so, again, it comes back to climate objectives. While this industry is required in certain circumstances, it should be regulated for the public good. However, it is now on a runaway train and is moving us in the opposite direction to our climate objectives.  It is moving us in the opposite direction to our climate objectives. Regarding the N-1 security standard that the European Commission uses, one of the things that countries should be assessing before they bring in new LNG infrastructure - which this Government wishes to do - is gas demand and its alternatives. We have not seen a transparent assessment of that yet. It is very worrying that not only do we not have the regulation we need for data centres, particularly if Members are saying they are critical infrastructure, which I think people agree with. This is part of our infrastructure, but they are not being regulated in a way that other critical infrastructure is. In fact, they are exacerbating our fossil fuel dependency. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alice-Mary Higgins  Was Mr. Jensen indicating? I was not sure. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. David Jensen","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. David Jensen  A question was asked about public data centres managed by governments. It is a really interesting potential solution to this question of data sovereignty. It really depends on the companies and where those companies are headquartered, and if there is extra territorial legislation that covers their operations in other countries or not. If a government's data is housed in a Microsoft, Google or Amazon data centre, technically extra territorial legislation would apply to those, and it is not necessarily protected and sovereign. The only solution there is a publicly-governed data centre that is not managed by one of the big technology firms. It is an interesting model, and I do not think it is decentralising back to the old school. It is just realising that governments are unique entities that require certain sovereign control over their data. It makes a lot of sense to have those government-managed data centre to protect that sovereignty. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alice-Mary Higgins  Just on PFAs, I know there is not time but if people had written pieces they could send me. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  You will have a chance to come back in, Senator. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alice-Mary Higgins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Alice-Mary-Higgins.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Alice-Mary Higgins  In case I do not, just to see a written contribution on PFAs would be useful. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  No, you will have a chance to come back in. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Laura Harmon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Laura Harmon  I thank the witnesses for their contributions. From reading Friends of the Earth's submission, it is clear that the UN has described Ireland as a cautionary tale in relation to this. What we are hearing this morning, and much of what we have heard at this committee, is a cautionary tale about data centres. That is not to say that it is black and white and that data centres are fundamentally bad, but we need to be very cautious in relation to this. The fact is that they are using 23% of our electricity currently, and with current planning projections, this is set to rise by potentially 11% in the next two to three years, adding the size of the county of Cork to the grid, effectively. As someone from Cork, that is extremely worrying for me. This will affect people in our society in so many different ways, in relation to the environment, the effects of decarbonisation, energy security and also bills. We know that thousands of people across the country today are probably opening bills coming in the door. They cannot afford to pay their electricity bills. People are suffering from the cost of living crisis, and I think it will be the less well off who will suffer the most because of this. We need to take that into account.  A very compelling case for a moratorium has been made. I want to delve into that more deeply. What would that look like if we were to implement it immediately? What needs to be put in place? It was also mentioned that some of the centres are not at full capacity, so how can we ensure that is addressed in terms of a review as well? I would also welcome if any of the witnesses want to come back to me on the issue of democratic consent which was mentioned. What does democratic consent look like? What do we as legislators have a responsibility to do in communicating with the public about data centres and raising awareness? Let us be honest, even in these Houses, there is a lack of awareness around data centres. If we are the ones who are actually legislating, the general public needs to be made aware of the implications of these down the line. Are there any examples of other countries where there has been a moratorium in place or where it is being considered or where it might have worked? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  I can come in on the moratorium. Yes, a legislative moratorium on new data centre connections is legally possible. There is some precedence for this in Irish parliamentary history.  It is legally possible and the Minister can issue that directive. At the moment what we hear a lot is the buck getting passed back to the energy regulator but actually it needs to come from this House. It needs to come from the D\u00e1il because that is the only way to ensure it. In terms of other countries, a de facto moratorium has actually just been issued in Scotland, as of Tuesday last week. They have said that no new planning applications will be reviewed for 12 months. It is worth saying that Scotland has, as of 2024, about 11 data centres while Ireland has over 100. They have clearly seen that these risks merit a pause, so there is precedence. We have also seen precedence in the US. There is a different regulatory system in the US but we have seen states like New York issue a moratorium. The Netherlands has had moratoriums under certain conditions as well. We are also seeing countries like Denmark, as I mentioned, introduce prioritisation criteria so that new data centre connections would be put at the back of the queue in order to make sure that emissions reductions targets, houses and services are met first and foremost. Like Senator Harmon said, there is a very real cost issue. PR6, which is coming into effect now, will increase bills for everyone. There is additional data centre demand forecast built into those bills so even if we have a moratorium tomorrow, we will need to go further than that in the coming years to ensure bills are fair. That demand is baked in and it is quite worrying. A moratorium is legally possible and it should come from this House. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Deirdre Duffy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Deirdre Duffy  In response to the question on democratic consent, I could be wrong but I do not remember the last general election being run on data centres as core to our economic model. Potentially, they were part of it but if we look at democracy, we see it is transparency and all of the data issues that Mr. Jensen brought us through so well, accountability, reporting and, most importantly, listening to communities. We are working with communities across the country. Just last week we were in touch with a community in Waterford, for example. There is a motion in Naas on Monday and there are lots of people who are very worried about data centres in their locality for various reasons, including that they are bringing chemicals and fossil fuels into their communities. Democratic consent at its most basic means listening to them, not just consulting them or batting them away but really listening to their concerns. That is the other reason we think a moratorium should be brought forward by this House to give everyone the space to really engage with that democratic consent. We know that over 80% of people in Ireland want more action on climate. They are scared and anxious about it and yet, at the same time, we are not willing to engage with them in relation to huge data centres coming into their communities. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Laura Harmon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","memberCode":"Laura-Harmon.S.2025-01-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Senator Laura Harmon  Does Mr. Jensen wish to come in on that as well? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. David Jensen","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. David Jensen  I just want to come in on the global perspective for a minute and position the reality of the challenge we face. Across all of the different environmental agreements we have in place right now, every single one is not being achieved. There is not a single indicator that is going in the right direction. It is all going the wrong way so, over 50 years of global environmental governance, we have generally failed to really start changing business models in the right direction. My personal opinion is that we are not going to do that without AI. AI is going to be essential and the digital transformation is going to be essential to start integrating environmental data directly into algorithmic decision-making and directly into AI algorithms. I see it as a solution and we need a positive narrative that is not just a doom and gloom narrative about the footprint of data centres. What could AI enable Ireland's economy to actually do? How can it become an engine for becoming more sustainable and more green? We need both narratives. We need to understand the footprint of the data centres but, at the same time, we need a positive narrative that says this technology could actually make the quality of life in Ireland, jobs and everything better as well. I just want to emphasise the importance of also investing in this AI-for-good narrative and trying to understand how AI is really being used across these different sectors to generate positive environmental, economic and social outcomes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  Thanks a lot to all of the witnesses and I thank in particular Friends of the Earth for the work they have done on putting information into the public domain, not just about the environment but also about the costs, for example. Ordinary householders are paying hundreds of euro extra as a consequence of data centres using so much of our electricity. There was a report by Se\u00e1n Fearon and a report last week by Dylan Murphy on the energy efficiency directive. I want to ask a related question.  Obviously, to have a public debate on data centres, we need information and then we can make democratic decisions about whether this is the right or the wrong thing to do. I do not know to what degree the witnesses followed the FOI requests in relation to the KPMG report. The Government commissioned a report by KPMG and the public paid for it, at just over \u20ac1 million. Responses to a couple of FOI requests effectively suggest that an original draft was changed at the behest of the Government to remove negative points. A section on the potential for higher electricity prices due to rising data centre demand, which was part of the original terms of reference, was gone. Sections on the impacts on transport, housing and making choices about how we use our energy were also gone. A Department official emailed KPMG to say that the executive summary needs to present a strong narrative that considers the full gamut of the economic analysis and provides the evidence base that supports the position that we should continue to further develop our data centre landscape post-2030 in the context of our climate objectives. In other words, KPMG was told what report to produce. It was told the outcome. It was not a question of being asked to go and look at the evidence and come back with the information. Is this something that concerns the witnesses in terms of having an open, evidence-based, democratic discussion on data centres? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  Yes, it is concerning. The opportunity costs were not examined fully, as the Deputy has said. There was also data put into that report originally around water consumption and that was removed. One of its recommendations actually went beyond transparency and suggested limitations on water consumption, which was quite a strong recommendation. I do not think many NGOs have even recommended that. It is a concern. What I find challenging about revelations like that is that we get evidence that the Department of trade or enterprise has suppressed these findings but then, when we ask the Minister for climate and energy for more transparency, we are told that it is not at their behest. There is a contradiction in terms of the levels of transparency here. The public deserves better, especially given the evidence around data centres increasing bills and the opportunity costs that come with that. We talk a lot about construction investment that comes from data centres but we have a profound housing crisis and a profound crisis in services. There is not a shortage there in terms of the need for construction. It is very concerning. A very hard look at the reality of the costs of data centres in Ireland in the context of electricity bills is needed and the Government should respond to that. We have not really heard a compelling response in terms of whether that is fair and how it will be mitigated. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Deirdre Duffy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Deirdre Duffy  I do not think we can have our cake and eat it. We cannot be saying on the one hand that this is really critical infrastructure and it is core to our economic model while at the same time not having a fully open, transparent, cohesive view on this industry in the country. At the moment - I see Mr. Jensen nodding - we are straddling between the two positions but it is either one or the other. That would take away from the harm that was caused by this report, which did not look at this issue in the round. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  Does Mr. Jensen want to add anything to that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. David Jensen","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. David Jensen  It is shocking but it is not surprising. How about that? KPMG is a reputable firm but they have a client, the client wants something and they deliver that to the client. To get an independent assessment, one would need to go elsewhere and not to one of the big four consultancies. I am shocked that they would do it but I am not surprised at all that they would water it down. As was just said, we are straddling these two realities and we need the data in order to make a decision on the strategy here and to figure out what the real trade-offs are in the short term and the long term and what the positive opportunities are from making these investments. It is very clear that the data just does not exist yet. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  Let us go there now. As Mr. Jensen said earlier, if we introduce a moratorium, it is likely that the investment goes elsewhere. We can have a discussion later, if we have time, about what is socially useful, what is not, and whether we want this expansion. It is probably true, in the here and now, that if we have a moratorium the investment goes elsewhere. I think it is a good thing that the investment goes elsewhere in the sense that such investment means using up more and more of our electricity, driving up our electricity prices and diverting labour away from constructing homes towards constructing data centres. What do the witnesses think is the opportunity cost of the investment going elsewhere by implementing a moratorium? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  The first point I would make on that is that a data centre moratorium would not result in the closing down of any existing data centres, which is really important because sometimes we hear that. Those companies would still be doing business here. As Ireland has a very low corporate tax rate, I find it hard to believe that lots of them would flee en masse . I think they will find it hard to find countries that will accept the level of building that Ireland has. One thing I have heard of quite often is that data centre investment will go to the Nordics, but the Nordics are enforcing stricter regulations around data centres than we are. I have also heard it about Spain, but Spain is enforcing stricter regulations than we are. Ireland has an incredibly favourable regulatory environment and I do not know if companies are going to find that elsewhere. This scaremongering is maybe a little overblown. We need to be thinking about limitations in terms of our own resources, renewables build-out for existing users in Ireland, cost fairness for consumers and households, and the ability to reach the climate targets that we voted in. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. David Jensen","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. David Jensen  The opportunity is conditional on those investments and putting in place requirements. I thought Ireland had a policy that 80% of all data centres have to be supplied by renewable energy. If that is the case, other conditionalities like that could actually help to make those data centres as green as possible. Conditional investment and emphasising benefit-sharing between data centres and those communities would be fundamental. I refer, for example, to the heat generated by some of these data centres. I am not sure what the situation is in Ireland but in other places, like Switzerland, some of that heat is reused for heating local pools, municipal infrastructure or even housing. Looking for win-win opportunities and putting a heck of a lot of conditionality on those investments is, I think, the opportunity.  On investment going elsewhere, there will always be countries that will accept those investments. There will always be governments that will be desperate for that kind of investment and will offer a regulatory environment that will attract it. I do think that investment would go elsewhere and, again, it is just a question of what Ireland's vision is. What are the trade-offs and what is the vision Ireland wants to put forward? I will go back to the opportunities. How can Ireland become a place where AI is used for sustainable development and better well-being? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Johnny Mythen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Johnny-Mythen.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Johnny-Mythen.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Johnny Mythen  I thank the witnesses for coming this morning. I have a few small questions. What future threats do the witnesses see for the environment based on the current trajectory of the growth of AI, its rapid development and its high demand for consumption of energy water and rare-earth minerals? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  I can speak briefly. I am sure Mr. Jensen would have points on that too. One of the fundamental challenges right now is the impact of data centre growth on renewables. We are the fourth most dependent country in the EU with regard to fossil fuel imports so we are very exposed to global price shocks and the geopolitical tensions we are seeing now. Our households are paying some of the highest bills in Europe. We cannot, according to the Climate Change Advisory Council, build renewables to the degree we need to if data centre demand continues because it is outstripping the growth of those renewables, which is significant.  On the water and land side, we are also seeing a worrying trend of land being zoned specifically for data centres. We have seen that in Kildare. Those are large land banks and it is not clear why that is being pursued. In regard to water, this summer, we had the hosepipe ban. One thing that is really important to understand about data centres and water is there was a lot of information this summer about data centres consuming millions of litres of water, which is true, but what is particularly worrying about it is that data centres use most of their water when temperatures rise. When there are already concerns around water shortages, data centres will exacerbate those. That is why limitations around water use would be very welcome to mitigate localised effects.  It is a thing we keep coming back to but, again, there are no good data on how much water data centres in Ireland are using and that is very severe. Yes, it will potentially exacerbate water shortages when the water shortages are already present, which is the real threat around data centres and water. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Johnny Mythen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Johnny-Mythen.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Johnny-Mythen.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Johnny Mythen  Regarding the protection of our environment, do the witnesses think the EU AI Act is far more focused on the human-centric to the detriment of the ecocentric? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  Possibly. Would Ms Duffy like to come in there? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Deirdre Duffy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Deirdre Duffy  No, Ms Leonard can go ahead. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  We are not considering these things in the round. As Mr. Jensen mentioned, there is a balance to be struck there. These things are material and physical infrastructure so rolling out this technology, and the way we are seeing it being rolled out at such scale and pace without environmental limitations, is potentially very worrying and damaging. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Deirdre Duffy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Deirdre Duffy  Given that, from our perspective, we are at such a critical period with the tipping points and the global warming we are all experiencing in our lives, everything has to be climate policy at this point. I would probably say that, no, it probably does not go far enough. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Johnny Mythen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Johnny-Mythen.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Johnny-Mythen.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Johnny Mythen  Mr. Jensen spoke about net accounting data. The irony of the fact that we have data centres is that we cannot get data on them.  The reporting mandate contained in Article 53 of the EU AI Act forces general-purpose AI to document energy consumption but it is only during training phases. Do the witnesses think this should be changed? Do they think this inference phase should be removed and all day-to-day consumption should be documented? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. David Jensen","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. David Jensen  Of course. As I said, the training phase is only 20% to 30% of the footprint. The inference phase is the most critical part so it should absolutely be extended. As was mentioned, the AI Act is very much human-centric.  I will go back to the Deputy's other point about critical minerals. I wanted to put two steps on the table. First, if you look at the critical minerals needed by the clean energy transition and those needed by the digital transition, they are about 98% of the same minerals so the demand for critical minerals is set to skyrocket. Different estimates are out there. The World Bank, for example, estimates that lithium demand is going to surge by about 300%, graphite by 131% and nickel by 69%. There are estimates out there that there is going to be surging demand. This is exactly why we also need to be thinking about the downstream e-waste. How do we actually manage that e-waste from data centres, mobile phones and digital infrastructure? How do we capture the critical minerals in that and try to transform that into some kind of circular business model? I think that is an important aspect we are not really touching on yet and this surging demand for critical minerals is going to be fundamental. These trade-offs are going to have to be made between which technologies we invest in and how we recapture that value at the end of its life cycle. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Johnny Mythen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Johnny-Mythen.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Johnny-Mythen.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Johnny Mythen  Are there any changes the witnesses would like to see to the law or any they would like to see included in the current EU AI Act? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  I can come in briefly. I think environmental assessments should be mandatory. Limitations on water and energy caps should be mandatory. A very clear plan on how this all aligns with the energy efficiency directive needs to happen. Europe has climate and energy efficiency goals. I am not sure that has been evaluated against the ambitions in the AI Act. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. David Jensen","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. David Jensen  To add to that, this goes back to the point I was trying to make. Any claims that AI is contributing to positive environmental outcomes like climate mitigation need to be made against a certain standard. Those claims need to be looking at both the footprint of technology and the handprint, and the net calculation has to be made. I would say that mandating ITU-T L.1480 or L.1801 for claims that AI is contributing to some kind of environmental benefit really need a standard attached to them and evidence behind them, otherwise it is going to be the next phase of greenwashing. AI-driven greenwashing is going to be huge unless some standards are put in place to prevent it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Johnny Mythen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Johnny-Mythen.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Johnny-Mythen.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Johnny Mythen  I only have 40 seconds left. Do the witnesses think it is possible to balance the protection of our energy resources against the aggressively competitive nature of generative AI companies and entities? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Deirdre Duffy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Deirdre Duffy  It is very clear at the moment that they are not in balance. We are way off meeting our climate targets. Data centre growth is unchecked and expanding. Mr. Jensen has spoken eloquently about the ledger and the checks and balances. If we can get there, of course anything is possible but right now we have a runaway train with regard to data centre expansion and we do not have the necessary regulation to provide those checks and balances. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  I thank the Chair and the witnesses.  It has been a useful hearing. It is a good balance to have the international perspective of Mr. Jensen as well.  I will tease out some of the issues that have been raised. On one particular point, was Ms Leonard suggesting that the hosepipe ban was linked to data centre water usage in Ireland? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  Not necessarily, but given that households were asked to reduce consumption, there was no parallel plan in terms of asking data centres to reduce consumption. They were not even required to submit their water usage. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Ms Leonard said there are not good data points on water usage of data centres. Are there some data points on water usage of data centres in Ireland? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  There are some. Some companies have submitted sustainability metrics. Meta, in Clonee, had been submitting metrics on water usage. Their data showed that in the past few years, annually, they have been using approximately 900 million megalitres of water per year. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  For the whole of Ireland, for example, are there data points that Ms Leonard can point to that would show the overall water usage of the 90 or 100 data centres in Ireland? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  Not completely, because some are drawing off the public system and some are drawing off abstraction and there is no combination of those two figures. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  I am only asking this because there is a figure, is there not? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  Yes. Uisce \u00c9ireann put out some figures but it also said that it was not sure. I think this is from the EPA's own data. They were not sure of the total number of data centres in terms of the usage being drawn through abstraction. It was kind of a guess. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  What was the figure that Uisce \u00c9ireann put out? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  They said that it was 1% of national water usage. My concern about that figure is it is contradicted by the figures that Meta put forward. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  I think it is less; 0.3% of water usage is what Uisce \u00c9ireann is saying. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  If they do not know how much is coming from abstraction, how can they confirm that figure? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  The only reason I am asking this question is because water usage is very commonly raised as one of the issues in relation to data centres but that seems an exceptionally low figure in the overall amount of water usage. How do we square the concern with the figures we have? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  You need better figures. You need to transpose Article 12 of the energy efficiency directive. You need to enforce penalties for companies that do not comply. We need a national database so that we ourselves can review those figures, not only at EU level. As I said, the real problem with data centres' water consumption is when it goes above 25\u00b0C. When there are already hosepipe bans in place and when there is already stress in localised water systems, that is when data centres will use water more extensively. It is at those moments that we need a better picture. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Does Ms Leonard think the true figure is many multiples of 0.3%? Would she care to speculate as to where she thinks it might be? Is it in the realm of 0% to 5% or is it more than that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  Speculating without the data is a fool's game. We need better data. As I said, Meta's sustainability metrics seem to slightly contradict Uisce \u00c9ireann's figures, which are not supported by the EPA's figures. We need much better figures than that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  I take Ms Leonard's point on Article 12 transposition. That will be transposed. When it is transposed, does that mean that the water usage from data centres will be provided and we will have the accurate figure? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  The spirit of that article is that we will have data submitted by the companies themselves. That needs to come into a full in-the-round view of how Ireland deals with heatwaves, which is an issue for the Department of the environment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  There is always the danger, on the flipside of environmental concerns, that people say they will spray their hose because of what data centres use. There is a public element to this, or a buy-in piece, if we are wrong about some part of the equation. When those figures come out and, let us say, if they substantiate that the water usage is 0.3%, is water usage still a relevant concern when it comes to data centres? Let us say it is proven that the figure is 0.3%. Is water usage a relevant concern, if that proves to be the figure? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  Even if that were the figure, which none of us knows, that would still be a concern if we also have what we had this summer, which was no rainfall for months on end. That is worrying. We should be looking at water use in the round in that regard. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Mr. Jensen highlighted the 80:20 split that Ireland has. If I understood him correctly, he thought that was a good conditionality. Ms Leonard mentioned Spain and Nordic countries have different ones. Maybe this is for Friends of the Earth and Mr. Jensen. I do not expect them to know the entire pipeline of offshore wind in Ireland but there is the argument, which they will have read in the KPMG report and elsewhere, that in order to sustain a future ongoing pipeline of offshore wind, we need electricity demand that will go beyond household certainty of demand.  Is that true to any great degree? If not, is there better conditionality we could impose on data centres that might make that true, going back to Mr. Jensen's point about AI for good? If there were tighter conditionality on the 80:20 rule, would they agree that more data centres could in fact result in investment in more offshore wind and renewables? The question is for Friends of the Earth first. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  I will speak of what Spain has done. In Ireland, we have the recent regulator of utilities policy. In Spain, the need for a six-year glide path has been dropped. They have said that you cannot have a six-year glide path to build out these renewables and you have to have the renewables on stream already, additional to what is already planned. It has to be 24-7 hourly-matched additional as well. It cannot be matched on an annual basis, which is what we have in Ireland. You cannot wait six years to scale up to that, which is also what we have in Ireland. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Does Ms Leonard view that Spanish example as an example of more data centres being a force for good for generating renewable energy? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  No, and definitely not in Spain. People in Spain have raised concerns about that not being high enough because in Spain there is an abundance of renewables. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  Maybe I will ask the question differently. Are there any circumstances where Ms Leonard views, with the appropriate conditionality, more data centres being a driver for more offshore or renewable forms of energy? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  If a moratorium is in place to allow the grid to catch up so we can decarbonise existing users, and much stricter conditions are brought in, as have been brought in in Spain, you could even look at raising that to 90%, 95% or 100% renewables, and if there are energy caps so you cannot have data centres being built. We are seeing proposals for Longford and Offaly of 500 MW. Building renewables to match that would be a huge use of land and resources. You would have very strict conditions, a moratorium and energy caps as well. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darren O'Rourke  I thank the witnesses. Will Friends of the Earth expand on the EU energy efficiency directive, the timeline of it and its understanding of the delay or when it will be transposed in Ireland? Ms Leonard mentioned Article 12. What is the potential of that? I understand the principle of it is energy efficiency first. Will Ms Leonard outline what proper implementation of the directive would look like in Ireland and whether it could be an improvement on the status quo ? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  We have just commissioned research on this which I will send to the members of this committee. As I mentioned, Article 12 means that data centres have to comply in terms of submitting their data. Other countries have brought in penalties for those that fail to comply. We should look to do the same. Otherwise there is no incentive for them to do this.  The EU energy efficiency directive does not necessarily mandate the creation of a national database but other countries have done this. In the Netherlands, they have also made that data public. We should look to do that too in the interests, as Deputy Geoghegan said, of public faith and buy-in in terms of sacrifices that others have had to make. That would be one of the main things we need to do with urgency. Looking at the energy efficiency targets as a whole, it is about how data centre demand challenges our ability to meet that energy efficiency as well. You could be looking at bringing in stricter requirements on data centres' energy use as a result of that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darren O'Rourke  Ms Leonard mentioned the Netherlands. Are there good examples of how the principles of the directive have been applied in other countries? Is there an example that we should look at in Ireland? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  Yes. Germany has gone further. It has introduced stronger regulations around the energy use and requirements of data centres while it has been transposing that directive. As I said, the Netherlands has created a national database as well and made that data public. Other countries have imposed fines as well on companies that have failed to comply. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darren O'Rourke  On the delay in Ireland, it was sometime last year that it was expected to be transposed. Have those questions been asked and is there an indication? I presume the Department of climate and energy is leading on it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  Yes, it is my understanding that it is the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment. As for the reasons for the delays, I am not sure. I know it has been raised. Parliamentary questions have been raised. They should be raised again to see where the progress is in relation to that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Deirdre Duffy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Deirdre Duffy  I will add to that very briefly. In terms of any notions of sustainability indexes or anything emanating from the industry itself, we believe that kind of transparency - the data collection from a directive that is enforced across the EU going to the economic point about working as an economic bloc - will be one of the most important things we should do. The regulation is with the Government and there is capability in the Oireachtas. Senator Higgins raised the sustainability index previously but from our position, most certainly, the directive should be the priority in terms of the transparency and accountability that is needed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darren O'Rourke  I presume that information then allows the witnesses to have a greater understanding of the current state of play and projections and trends and the types of conditions they might apply to data centre development or other development, and that is essentially provided for in the directive.  In terms of their argument then around the 80:20 breakdown, Government will say that it is responding, it has moved and it understands. There have been very strong lines; we see it from various representatives, including the Taoiseach and the Department. Is the witnesses' argument on the 80:20 breakdown that the renewables are not coming at the pace they need to? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  We have taken a judicial review of that policy, so I do not want to say too much because that will be decided by a judge. However, Professor Hannah Daly spoke very well in this committee previously that, essentially, under that policy, there are a few issues, one of which is the conditions around those renewables themselves. They are annually matched. There is a six-year glide path and during that six-year glide path, data centres are being built with no size limitations, which will obviously exasperate climate change. The other issue is that without a cap on demand, those renewables are essentially being outpaced. Through the modelling she has done, we can see that if all of that demand was realised and met by those conditions, there would be a decrease in the number of renewables on stream generally because data centre demand is so enormous. It is also constant, which is unlike other businesses, industries or households. It is all times of the day, 24-7, constant inflexible demand. That is just from the environmental perspective. Then, from the cost perspective, it would do nothing to reduce the data centre price effect we see on bills at the moment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darren O'Rourke  On Friends of the Earth's second ask around the prioritisation framework - my colleague Deputy Pa Daly introduced legislation last week - are there good examples of that or what are the key things that need to happen? Is it around prioritising residential and public buildings? Ms Leonard might outline what it means by that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  Yes, sure. Denmark has just introduced proposals around this, which are quite strong. We would not necessarily have to do it exactly the way the Danes have done it, but what they have done is replace the first come, first served scenario. They have introduced four categories, basically. The first is prioritisation to cover increased demand from current customers, new households and small businesses. The second is for projects that support electrification and the green transition. Those two would have highest priority on the grid. It is prioritising non-data-centre customers first and prioritising emissions reductions. Then, new data centres that want to come on stream are last in the queue. There are essentially four categories based around what they have termed societal need. Those proposals are certainly the strongest we have seen in the EU, so they would be worth looking at in detail. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darren O'Rourke  I presume----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  We are out of time, Deputy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darren O'Rourke  Presumably, in a framework like that, the case can be made that data centres can make their case as well. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Deputy, we are out of time. I have cut across everybody else; I am sorry. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darren O'Rourke  That is fine. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Keira Keogh  I thank our witnesses for coming in this morning. My first question is for Mr. Jensen. He noted that local communities often bear the environmental footprint of digital infrastructure while the benefits are felt either nationally or internationally. That made me think about a local project that is in the news at the moment called Mayo Data Hub, which is a proposed data centre.  It was a $1.5 billion investment. Mayo County Council had originally granted planning permission in April 2025 and An Coimisi\u00fan Plean\u00e1la overturned it this September. There are mixed feelings on the ground. Some people welcomed the refusal while others were upset about it, given that there were 300 construction jobs proposed in the short-term and 35 permanent jobs. Unlike in large urban centres like Dublin, in Killala 35 jobs is a significant number. The reasons for refusal were the absence of a fixed grid connection and lack of evidence of grid capacity.  People in north Mayo feel they have contributed so much to renewable generation with wind farms very prominent in the area. Councillor Jarlath Munnelly was in support of the development, but acknowledged there was also a lot of opposition in Mayo. It speaks to the intersection of the twin transition, where a county has given so much to renewable energy but in this case thought it might get some economic benefit. What mechanism would Mr. Jensen recommend to ensure that those communities or communities in general share more directly in the benefits? The Killala community trust fund was originally developed for the wind farm and there was an idea that that might be used. There are mixed feelings on the ground. I would like to hear any thoughts or comments on that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. David Jensen","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. David Jensen  I thank the Deputy. Reading some of the documentation on the AI digital policy, the climate policy and the industrial policy, as I said the term \"twin transition\" is mentioned but is never defined. There are no metrics around it or strategy. As the Deputy said, there are no criteria in terms of making trade-offs and balancing local and national interests. At a minimum, I would try to define what it means for Ireland, how it measures it and makes the trade-offs and the core principles. As the Deputy said, we need to figure out how to decide between local and national interests.  Coming up with a twin transition plan or some measure of documentation that defines what it is and what is measurable and reportable would be step one. Step two goes back to something we keep talking about, namely some kind of national observatory for the twin transition in terms of looking at all the data points negatively and positively and trying to understand whether this is a net benefit for Ireland. This is what the French Government is doing with ADEME and DSREP. It has a national observatory for the twin transition, which it calls the digital ecological transition. It aggregates all of the data from all of the sectors and tries to have a national view on whether this is good or bad for France at the net level and where the biggest negative and positive consequences are.  In the French case, by having that data it is seeing that the net outcome is not positive. It is still very much negative. Many sectors are still seeing more impact than benefit. That can only be determined with this kind of observatory and all of its data. The second recommendation is coming up with a national observatory for the twin transition that aggregates all of the data from the different sectors, something that is obviously required through legislation, publishing it and making a determination on whether something is a net positive or negative for Ireland. Again, the local and national view needs to be examined. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Keira Keogh  I thank Mr. Jensen We appreciate that. My next question is for Friends of the Earth. Ms Leonard spoke about personal computing versus generative AI. People had to get used to personal computing. The speed at which they are starting to get used to generative AI means that it is starting to embed into their lives in a similar manner to personal computing. Some people have multiple agents on the go at the same time. Some people are now using it in their everyday economic activity. I spoke to a lady yesterday who told me she had one task which used to take her 20 hours a month and it now takes her two and a half hours. What would Ms Leonard suggest in terms of meeting the additional demand that is coming quickly without undermining our climate targets?  I refer to the proposed moratorium, which would probably not eliminate the demand. The demand might go to another jurisdiction. The effect on the environment would still be the same, but we may lose jobs here.  What would the witnesses' suggestions be about the fact there is an increasing demand in Ireland and the question of how we meet our targets while meeting that demand? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  I will let my colleague Ms Duffy come in on that as well but I do not know based on the data we have seen from the likes of the SEAI, the Climate Change Advisory Council and Professor Hannah Daly and others who have spoken at this committee that we can do both, given the pace of demand coming from generative AI. It is very important we understand the debate on generative AI very clearly. We have all sorts of generative AI models being rolled out. The International Energy Agency has said they are the key driver of demand. That has been built into people's everyday lives and people's phones without consent. I will not speak in detail about it here because it is beyond the realm of what I am here to speak about but we have just seen with the likes of TikTok, Meta and X very significant additional pressures to do with algorithmic designs being built in and the effect of that on mental health. There are really serious questions to be asked about what is a good use of AI. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Keira Keogh  I am sorry to cut across Ms Leonard but in the interests of time I am a psychologist in training, so I understand the mental health effects. We can argue about those but demand is increasing. How do we feed that demand and keep our environmental targets or shift our environmental targets elsewhere? I ask because the demand is going to stay and people will just get it from other jurisdictions. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  I do not know that we can do both. On shifting environmental targets, the D\u00e1il voted for the climate law so I do not know if we would want to do that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Keira Keogh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Keira-Keogh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Keira Keogh  I am sorry, I did not mean shift our targets. I meant trying to get both at the same time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  We are out of time. Friends of the Earth may answer briefly. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Deirdre Duffy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Deirdre Duffy  They are legally binding targets but I understand what the Deputy is saying about the demand being there and people using AI but it is back to looking at it in the round. There is no regulation there at the moment. We are talking about social media and that arrived 15 years ago or maybe longer. We need to examine this. Exactly as Ms Leonard was saying, it is being built into people's devices and they are of course using it without the digital skills and not understanding the impact. We see that when people are shown the impact they will prioritise public services rather than other issues to do with data centres. It goes to the nub of what we have to figure out and we welcome the question but at a bare minimum, there should be a requirement on companies to turn off AI models unless people consent to use the AI through their applications. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I thank Ms Duffy. It falls to me now to ask some questions. One thing that struck me is the fact, as she said, that all policy should be seen through a climate lens. I agree 100% with her. That could be in education or it could be in energy or regardless of what side of society it falls upon. There is a growing and obvious conflict between the growth in artificial intelligence and trying to keep up with our climate targets. Notwithstanding that, I am conscious there is a need for data centres. Does Friends of the Earth agree there is a need for data centres for public services and for healthcare? There may be some elements we might agree or disagree on but data centres, generally speaking, are required in society. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Deirdre Duffy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Deirdre Duffy  Yes. Just very briefly, we have had the great example from Latvia. We have been talking about the Houses of the Oireachtas. People use data. It is cloud computing. It is the fact it is totally out of sync and the scale is massive. When we talk about jobs or industries moving to other countries, we are a global outlier. Why are we the toxic waste ground for cloud computing that is used all over the place? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Why does Ms Duffy say \"toxic waste ground\"? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Deirdre Duffy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Deirdre Duffy  Because communities are living beside the forever chemicals. They are living beside fossil fuel that is being generated as a result of data centres in the area. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  What forever chemicals are being generated by data centres? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Deirdre Duffy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Deirdre Duffy  Senator Higgins raised forever chemicals earlier. What I am trying to say is by the very nature of cloud computing we are providing services for people globally but we are taking an extreme drain on our energy systems. What we have discussed really well today is that we do not actually know the extent of the drain on our water and energy systems. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  We are looking at it from a purely Irish perspective here but if we refuse data centres - it has kind of been covered this morning - are we not just pushing the problem somewhere else, be it the UK, the Nordics or wherever? I take the point that they have, let us say, stronger regulations in place but that does not mean new data centres are not going to be established.  Mr. Jensen mentioned that there will always be countries willing to accept investment in new data centres. Are we just pushing the problem away from Ireland to somewhere else so that our climate figures are improved somewhat? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. David Jensen","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. David Jensen  That is exactly what you are doing. If this conditionality question can be used as a procurement lever and the right set of conditions put around it, you can then help that conditionality question generate new markets that other sectors can then benefit from, which has potential knock-on effects. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Rather than a complete moratorium on data centres, should our focus be that any data centre essentially has to prove its energy has been generated purely through renewable energy, which could put our minds at ease in terms of the e-chemicals or forever chemicals Ms Duffy mentioned? Should that be the focus rather than the moratorium, which could just push the problem to somewhere else in Europe or globally? In a western civilisation like Ireland, maybe our focus should be more on renewables and ensuring that these data centres are as climate conscious as possible. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. David Jensen","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. David Jensen  I do not want to say \"Yes\" or \"No\". My issue is that Ireland lacks the data to make that decision right now. I find it quite surprising that a modern developed economy like Ireland does not have all the data it needs to assess these trade-offs. Maybe a five-year moratorium is too long but my first priority is getting that data in place immediately and then running the projections and understanding whether Ireland can handle the data centres and what the resource load will be. Once Ireland has that data, it can decide what conditionality it will put upon that and upon new investment. The first priority is data collection, making those projections and then figuring out what those conditions would be. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  That is super helpful. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Deirdre Duffy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Deirdre Duffy  Bear in mind that it is having impact in real time. Our research this year has shown that it is pushing up household bills in Ireland. Members will be aware that this is because of the level of renewables data centres are using. The pricing is at gas level now, which is more expensive, so this is not abstract for people facing into winter. I take the Cathaoirleach's point about where a data centre is going to lie but we are at 23% of the grid. We are a global outlier. That is the reason we are calling for the moratorium. I have heard the train mentioned in this committee. The train is really speeding down the line. All we are asking is for us to pause, put the regulations in place and get the data so that we know what we are doing. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I get that and I appreciate that as well. If we look at the number of new connections by EirGrid for data centres over the past five years, are the witnesses aware of how many new connections have been made for data centres? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  The number has slowed down but it is still very high. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Zero. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  Okay. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  It is important to say that. Any new connections have been zero so any of the connections that have been made were connections that were applied for prior to 2021. We need a balanced view. It is not a case of them popping up everywhere. There have been applications that have been going through the process for a long time and the CRU and EirGrid have rightly been asking more questions and pushing back, as have local authorities to their credit. We need a balanced view. It is not a case of tonnes of them opening up on a daily or weekly basis. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  That is a really interesting point. A total of 700 MW of data centre development is in planning, so we know people are applying for connections right now. Whether or not they have got them----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  They have not been approved. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  If we look at them in the round, Herbata in the Cathaoirleach's constituency is so big it will triple the electricity capacity of the entirety of Kildare and could take up one quarter of the entire central emissions ceiling carbon budget for the electricity industry. That is really substantial. If we come back to the issue of cost, we have had these figures, for example, a market intelligence exercise that says it is 5.8 GW in demand. We are potentially building a grid with the cost socialised to meet that. The Cathaoirleach is saying is that basically the top demand is speculative. That is a very interesting question. The question of how households will be protected from building out speculative demand, which may not occur, is quite a worrying one in terms of cost-of-living issues. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  We will go back to second round questions. We have about four minutes per person and 20 minutes left. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  This has been such a fantastic session. It has been really helpful to hear all of the testimony. I will start with Mr. Jensen and the ledger model because it has been comforting to hear him elaborate on it more. It is in the context of where we are. For example, when we talk about moratoriums, we are accused of being totally anti-technology whereas I see them more as a pause, which is what a moratorium is defined as. It is not \"no data centres\", rather, it is \"no more data centres for now until we have better data\".  What is becoming very clear from the conversation today is lack of data is one of the biggest issues. When we hear about selective information being provided by Government and about the profit model of these companies meaning that they will never be forthcoming with it, that is why we have to look at it. We are dealing with an unbalanced narrative as it is. With regard to understanding the net benefit, where does social good fit into that? I spoke about generative AI versus a repository or tech archives. AI slop is bad so when we talk about the ledger that Mr. Jensen is promoting - this idea of quantifying good versus bad - how can that fit in? Has he thought about that or baked it into his modelling? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. David Jensen","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. David Jensen  Looking at the positive side of the ledger, we basically look at each of the sectors of the economy, such as agriculture, mobility, transport, energy, buildings and homes to figure out what the green objective is or how we generate our green objectives in that sector while also generating economic profits and generating the social good that this sector generates. It is not about just looking at one dimension. It is looking at the green, the social and the economic together. Typically, in agriculture, using precision agriculture, drones and digital twins can really reduce energy consumption, fertiliser use and pesticide use. Vertical farming can increase efficiency of production. You are looking to see how these technologies can increase the productivity of the sector but also reduce that sector's footprint. Looking at both together is the key. When a digital technology is applied to a sector and these positive claims are made, we also need to ask what the footprint of the AI model, the data centre and the network was, and do that net balancing.  The ITU standard is being revised right now. The first version was issued in 2022. The European Green Digital Coalition has been testing it and one of its conclusions has been that this third tier - the systemic effects tier - is incredibly hard to model. We can model the footprint and the handprint but understanding the wider economic effects and how it changes behaviour is becoming very difficult. At the moment, they are just looking at the net positive versus negative. The AI standard L.1801 was released in February of this year so it is brand new and has not been tested. Again, one of my recommendations is to take those standards, apply them to 20 use cases in Ireland and see what comes up and whether it is positive or negative. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  That is really helpful. I would have thought that this will also become a tool - a softer power essentially - to use or simply a basis on which we can build a stronger regulatory framework If we have that information, it will be easier to keep corporations in check, for example.  I just wanted to pick up on Senator Higgins's questions on PFAS and forever chemicals. What information on the impact is available here in Ireland at the moment? Picking up on Deputy Geoghegan's questions around water usage, is that being measured in any way or how can it be? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  To my knowledge, it is not but I know that academics in UCD, particularly academics like Jeremy Auerbach, have wanted to conduct research on this because it is related to the water that is expelled from the data centre after it has been used. The Guardian recently published quite good research on PFAS. It is underexplored and we should be investigating it, and we can. We can test water levels. A lot of these data centres are around rivers, lakes or streams. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  Is it water and air? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  From what I know, it is mainly water, but air is potentially affected too. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  Thank you. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Malcolm Byrne  I thank our witnesses. In one sense it is a little concerning, when we are talking about AI and the environment, that the conversation has been reduced to just data centres. The potential of being able to use AI, quantum computing and other technologies, as Mr. Jensen as mentioned, to address a lot of our environmental concerns has not been stated. There are proposals coming from the EU Commission. I agree about the transparency on the rating for energy and water consumption. We cannot divorce those issues from broader questions around our investment in renewable energies and in energy security. I find it somewhat difficult that we are debating here that there is only an 80% renewable requirement for our data centres and that it should be 100%, which I agree. However, in China. which is building data centres to beat the band, 70% of its data centres are fuelled by coal. There are some interesting hydro-powered ones that have emerged. Our challenge in Europe is that we tie ourselves up in knots while the rest of the world races ahead.  The questions around data sovereignty are also critical. This comes to small language models. I certainly do not want European data on Chinese servers. Increasingly, concerns are being raised about European data being stored on servers in the United States. I am strongly opposed to a moratorium. We need to be looking at building the best possible, most sustainable data centres that we have. I am strongly supportive of Echelon's moves just outside Arklow, which will be converting a disused fertiliser manufacturing site into a green energy park, using that energy for district heating models. I disagree with Deputy Paul Murphy. I am concerned about losing jobs from Ireland on this. What is the ideal model for data centres? Ireland should continue to be at the fore of the sustainable digital economy. That is really about identifying the model we want to see in place. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Deirdre Duffy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Deirdre Duffy  We do not disagree with the Deputy in many respects. Let us start from where we agree. We do need a sustainable model. At the moment, without being combative, the question I would have to pose is whether the Government is prioritising this over decarbonisation. Even with the large energy users action plan, that is a six-year glide path and it was introduced in 2025. We are not going to meet our legally binding climate targets in 2030, which this House voted for. We can talk in abstract terms about climate targets but they are having a real impact, as I am sure the Deputy knows well from his constituents and going door to door. The primary reason we are looking for a moratorium is the scale and pace. It is too much at the moment. We are out of sync with our climate targets. Professor Hannah Daly spoke about it very well at this committee also. We have to regulate and we have to put in a framework. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Malcolm Byrne  I referred to the Echelon model as a green energy park that is being proposed for Arklow, which will be tied to renewable energy. Is that the kind of model that Friends of the Earth could see working well? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  I can come in there. The Echelon case is very interesting. From my understanding, it would take 50% of the capacity of the Arklow wind bank, which is quite significant if we have not decarbonised. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Malcolm Byrne  A lot of the energy is going to be generated by solar on site. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  How big is that data centre? Is it 4 acres for one megawatt of solar? It is quite big. I have been to the Echelon data centre in Clondalkin, the one that was in the news because it was noisy. It is full of gas turbines. They are the first thing you see. Gas is propping up the data centre industry in Ireland very significantly. There is the question of additional renewables. Will we already have decarbonised existing users in Wicklow and Wexford, for example, that we can afford to lose 50% of the capacity of Arklow wind bank for a large data centre? What would be the land footprint of solar? Meeting a data centre's energy demand by solar is very challenging. Gas turbines are everywhere. In Clondalkin and Grange Castle it is gas, eight hours a day generally. Their own EPA licences say they are reliant on gas. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Malcolm Byrne  Would Ms Leonard support a small modular reactor? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I need to move on, to have time cover everybody. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  On the jobs issue, there was a suggestion that if we had a moratorium, we would lose jobs. Is there any evidence? According to KPMG, there are 3,300 direct jobs in data centres. A moratorium would not affect those jobs. The construction jobs are temporary in any case. It is true that there are construction jobs on data centres now because they are constructing data centres that have approval. Presumably those jobs would not be affected. Would there be any job losses as a result of a data centre moratorium? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  That is something that should be modelled because there is no data on it. I do not think so, because we are talking in the abstract. We are seeing job losses related to AI, and we are seeing those job losses in Ireland. I think it is in the order of a little over 1,000 potential redundancies from TikTok and others. The Communications Workers' Union may have been in here already. We are seeing job losses related to the growth of AI. That is a fact. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  I really fear that some of the world is going to be fooled into thinking that the massive expansion of AI and data centres is going to be fine because we are going to use it for addressing climate change. In the dim and distant future, there is this technological solution. There is a great report from KPMG which I often cite, which asked 1,200 executives what they thought about AI and climate change. I do not really know why they were asking executives but 97% of them describe AI as a net positive for accelerating progress towards net zero goals. Instead of asking executives, I will ask Friends of the Earth if there is any evidence for this belief that AI is going to solve climate change as opposed to making the crisis even worse. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Deirdre Duffy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Deirdre Duffy  We are not an economic organisation, as the Deputy knows. What we do see is that the old, tired economic models are being perpetuated through the AI roll-out. We talked about minerals earlier. Amnesty International is reporting serious exploitation in certain African countries that are not seeking the rewards of the resources. I will pass over to Ms Leonard to take up the point, but the reality is that it is just building on old patterns. It is not clear that it is going to help us with our climate targets, or that ordinary people are going to benefit from it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Rosi Leonard","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Rosi Leonard  I would really direct the committee to the work of Enabled Emissions, former Microsoft employees who are working on that issue. Just as Mr. Jensen has indicated, AI is not all the same. The International Energy Agency has said that AI is driving the surge in demand, and that the AI that is helping manage and improve the energy system is not always the same thing as the AI driving this demand. Enabled Emissions has indicated very clearly that a lot of the big companies such as Microsoft and Amazon are entering into deals with oil companies to expedite the extraction of oil and drilling of wells internationally. That will increase emissions quite significantly. When we talk about the projected benefits of AI, we need a lot more clarity on what it is being used for, who is using it, where it is being used. It absolutely should not be used to expedite any fossil fuel drilling at this moment in global warming. It is very ambiguous. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","memberCode":"Paul-Murphy.D.2014-10-10","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Murphy  I have a final question for Mr. Jensen. It follows on from Deputy Gibney's question. I agree about all of this accounting and so on, but is there not a fundamental problem? I did not feel Mr. Jensen really answered it earlier. What is happening in the data centres is a black box to us. We can say that AI used to perpetrate a genocide is clearly bad. We can say that using AI to create sexually abusive images is clearly bad, or to target kids with pro-eating disorder content. However, we cannot see inside these black boxes because they are private corporations. Is that not a fundamental obstacle we have to coming up with a good accounting system for the positives and negatives? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. David Jensen","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. David Jensen  Not necessarily; not at all. We need the data centre itself to be able to disclose the footprint it is having, but in terms of the benefit it is generating, the question of the sector it is used in is very different. There is a lot of evidence, as I said. The European Green Digital Coalition and the French environment agency are looking at case after case to try to figure out if the net benefit is positive or negative.  In the majority of cases I would say it is positive. Per unit of energy used or injected, ten or 20 times more CO2 is reduced, so there is a benefit, but there are cases where that handprint is erased due to rebound effects, so it is not always the case. It is case by case, sector by sector, AI technology by AI technology, and the devil is in the detail. It might be said AI will solve climate change. We cannot solve climate change without AI, but solving climate change with AI will need a strong government hand, a lot of good incentives and disclosure of these exact metrics we are talking about.  If people are doing bad things with AI, that is not necessarily within the domain of AI regulation. It is within other regulations as well. AI is a tool to do good and bad things and if people are breaking the law with it in another sector, they are breaking the law with it. However they break the law, whether it is with or without AI, they can be gone after for breaking the law. It does not always have to be an AI law that is being broken. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  I have to step in. We have a few minutes left for Deputy Geoghegan. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  We are much more polite to our international guests. Mr. Jensen got more time than the domestic guests.  I did not get to talk to Mr. Jensen in the last round. He mentioned that he is surprised that Ireland does not have the data points. Ireland has a lot of data points. We have the KPMG report on the economic impact that has been referred to. There is an Irish Water report. It is disputed, but we have a figure for water and know how much is used. To be fair to the Irish Government or State, we understand the trade-offs. One of the trade-offs we have imposed, as has been discussed, is the 80:20. Other trade-offs are local. Commercial rates, which is the local tax, is paid to the local authority. That is different in other countries. In Germany, the state governments, to the best of my knowledge, do not even get the benefit of the income communally.  The longer term play for Ireland is a lot more straightforward. AI is a fourth industrial revolution. Ireland does not have a natural industrial base. The Irish economy is built on the back of foreign investment - that is the bedrock - and an open economy. We have to be in this race, but like Deputy Malcolm Byrne, I find it frustrating that when we are trying to do the right thing - we are trying to get investment by doing 80:20 - jurisdictions outside Europe and perhaps in Europe are using a lot more fossil fuels to ramp up their data centre investment. Where is the fine line? Having listened to this discussion, where does Mr. Jensen think Ireland's stands in comparison with other European countries?  I will turn to something we have not really touched on. A big discussion is going on in Europe now about how to use data centres in the sovereignty discussion. Europe is not the innovative frontier. Most companies are outside Europe, with the exception of Mistral, so we cannot just regulate AI. How do we maintain sovereignty? Perhaps there is a piece about the physical digital infrastructure and how Europe can use it to get trade-offs in a regulatory sense from the frontier AI companies. I do not know whether that is in Mr. Jensen's field or he has any observations to make on those two questions. Can we Europeanise this debate a little better? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. David Jensen","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. David Jensen  It should be Europeanised, absolutely. Ireland should be looking at a European footprint and handprint and asking what Ireland's contribution to it is and should try to look at the trade-offs in a transboundary way at a European level. I do not have expertise in how that might be done fairly across all of Europe. It is a difficult political economy question, but it is fair to ask the question. Especially if Ireland is taking a lot of the digital footprint, what is the compensatory measure for that? How can that trade-off be made to make sense for Ireland?  Regarding where Ireland stands relative to other countries, when I saw that 22% of electricity is already being used by data centres, I thought Ireland was already hitting a red line. That is an important red line Ireland is butting against. It is a threshold that would concern me. The reason it is a cautionary tale is that it is one of the highest percentages of energy use, at least on the European side. I understand why people are concerned and why the moratorium is being called for.  I could not find the data that I would have needed to make a better judgment call. I could not find the projections. I could not find a digital twin or a digital observatory where all this data is aggregated, and where citizens can inform themselves on which policies to support and how we might do this in a more sustainable way. I am not convinced that all the data is there. It might be, but I just could not find it, so it could be a transparency question. The Deputy's broader point is a good one: how do we take this conversation into the Union and look for this question of trade-offs in a more equitable way across all members? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  That brings our discussion to a close. I thank the witnesses for an insightful and worthwhile discussion this morning. We appreciate the attendance here of Ms Leonard and Ms Duffy, and we thank Mr. Jensen for attending online. The committee is adjourned until tomorrow, when we will meet with the Minister of State, Deputy Niamh Smyth. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an comhchoise ar athl\u00f3 ar 1 p.m. go dt\u00ed 5 p.m. D\u00e9 C\u00e9adaoin, an 23 Me\u00e1n F\u00f3mhair 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The joint committee adjourned at 1 p.m. until 5 p.m. on Wednesday, 23 September 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"AI and the Environment: Discussion (Resumed)"}]}}]},"contextDate":"2026-09-22"},{"debateRecord":{"house":{"showAs":"34th D\u00e1il","committeeCode":"","houseCode":"dail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/house\/dail\/34","chamberType":"house","houseNo":"34"},"chamber":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/def\/house\/dail","showAs":"D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann"},"lastUpdated":"2026-09-24T16:04:35+00:00","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/main","formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/mul@\/main.xml"},"pdf":null},"date":"2026-09-22","counts":{"contributorCount":169,"divisionCount":1,"debateSectionCount":33,"questionCount":13,"billCount":5},"debateType":"debate","debateSections":[{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_2","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Visit of US Delegation","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Before I commence Leaders' Questions, I ask colleagues to join me in offering a warm c\u00e9ad m\u00edle f\u00e1ilte to our guests in the Distinguished Visitors Gallery from the Arizona Legislature. They are led by Senator Frank Carroll, whom I had the great honour of meeting earlier this year on St. Patrick's Day when I visited Phoenix as part of our St. Patrick's Day celebrations. I welcome all of the rest of the delegation who are in the Gallery. I thank them for being here and they are most welcome. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Visit of US Delegation"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_3","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna \u00f3 Cheannair\u00ed - Leaders' Questions","counts":{"speechCount":67,"speakerCount":12},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_3","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Deputies","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor D. McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mary Lou McDonald  T\u00e1 br\u00fa ollmh\u00f3r ar dhaoine mar gheall ar na harduithe m\u00f3ra i bpraghsanna ola t\u00ed, peitreal agus d\u00edosal. T\u00e1 Sinn F\u00e9in ag moladh r\u00e9itithe le dul i ngleic leis seo agus praghsanna a laghd\u00fa. Caithfidh an Rialtas iad a chur i bhfeidhm l\u00e1ithreach. Workers, families and businesses are under enormous unsustainable pressure from soaring fuel prices. The price of home heating oil, petrol and diesel has skyrocketed. People simply cannot afford the Government paying lip service to this situation. They need the Government to do its job; they need action and they need it to implement solutions.  Tonight, Sinn F\u00e9in has legislation before the D\u00e1il to bring down fuel costs by removing carbon tax. This is the eighth time that we have brought forward this measure and the Government has voted against it on every single occasion. The cost of home heating oil has shot up by hundreds of euro in just the past three weeks. Families are exhausted. They are sick to their back teeth of being fleeced just to heat their homes. A full fill of oil now costs \u20ac1,600. How on earth can people be expected to pay those prices? Why on earth would people be expected to pay these prices?  The Government needs to recognise the intense pressure households are under and back our proposal tonight. The Government needs to act to ease the burden of soaring petrol and diesel prices because prices have now topped \u20ac2 per litre in many places. In some parts of the country, motorists are forced to fork out \u20ac2.20 for a litre of diesel. Instead of doing its job and moving quickly to get fuel prices down, the Government dithers, delays and drags its heels once again. It tells people to wait. There is no action - there is plenty of kite-flying, mind you, as regards what the Government might do in the budget. As a matter of fact, the Government must have leaked half of the budget already. The one thing it has not done is provide workers, families and businesses with clarity on the relief the Government will bring forward in respect of fuel.  Public frustration is again building. The Government is rerunning the same out-of-touch, go-slow approach that brought so much anger, so much stress and discontent back in the springtime - anger, the Minister will remember, that boiled over into mass protest. The public had to force the Government to listen and act. People should not have to take to the streets again for the Government to do something to get surging fuel prices down. That is the Government's job.  It is time to stop talking about all the things it cannot control and time to act on the things that it can. That means cutting taxes to bring down fuel prices. What we need now is decisive action that puts workers and families first. I am asking the Government to immediately introduce solutions - now, today - that will make a real difference for people. That means implementing our legislation, removing carbon tax from home heating oil and giving households some desperately needed relief. It means providing a further immediate excise cut on petrol and diesel to get their prices down. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation (Deputy Jack Chambers)  I thank Deputy McDonald for her remarks. As she knows, budget 2027 is being designed and delivered against a significant international backdrop and risk to the Irish economy. In the context of geopolitical uncertainty, we have gone through a significant series of shocks over the last number of months and years. The Government is cognisant of the serious pressures families face when it comes to day-to-day issues when filling their cars with diesel or petrol or buying home heating oil. The budget is taking place in two weeks' time, and this is just political opportunism from the Deputy and her party trying to bring that forward on a two-week basis when she knows negotiations are ongoing.  The central priority for the Government is to help with the cost of living. That will happen through a significant income tax package to reward work, support workers across the economy and give people a break. It will drive affordability across different areas of service provision, including childcare and the cost of disability, and using the social protection package to help those most in need and most pressurised by the increased cost of energy across our economy. Areas like the fuel allowance are under consideration. We have constantly said publicly and in our negotiations that we are keeping the wider taxation of fuel and energy under review so that we are agile and responsive to the needs across our economy.  Let us consider the measures that we have taken thus far. We have taken measures costing in excess of \u20ac1 billion in response to the energy shock in 2026, with reductions in excise on a litre of petrol of 27 cent and a litre of diesel of 32 cent. We have extended the fuel allowance. These are all matters for further consideration for the budget in two weeks' time. We are also cognisant of the current price pressure on home heating oil, which is why that is receiving specific consideration in the context of the budget.  It would be better if the Deputy just came forward with constructive and helpful input----- "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(Interruptions)."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  -----rather than seeking to politicise everything. How Sinn F\u00e9in can gain is the constant direction from the Deputy's party, and how it can exploit different areas and different people across our economy. I look forward to reading Sinn F\u00e9in's pre-budget submission, because we know that, while it has a loose attachment to many in the Russian economy, it plays Russian roulette with the Irish economy when it comes to all its pre-budget submissions. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Matt Carthy  Making a speech and coming up with nothing. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(Interruptions)."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  Sinn F\u00e9in wants to cut taxes, massively ramp up expenditure and undermine our economic future. In this budget, we will prioritise, we will target towards those most in need, but we will also protect growth, prosperity and jobs for the Irish economy into the 2030s, ensuring that we continue to build enterprise, strengthen our labour market and give people that hopeful future. That is about protecting investment in infrastructure and housing as well, which is a critical part of budget 2027.  The Minister, Deputy O'Brien, is also working on a broad range of supports when it comes to trying to reduce the reliance on fossil fuels in our economy and there will be additional measures there, too. This will be a budget that is centrally focused on the cost of living, improving public services and alleviating the tax burden on work. It will make a difference and will seek to mitigate the harm for those most in need over the winter period. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mary Lou McDonald  Jesus, that is woeful spoofing. The Minister does not have to speculate on anything because we have been very clear for months on end that the Government has to give assistance to the 700,000 households that heat their homes with heating oil. The Government has done nothing except give this kind of guff and try to act to distract, but it will not distract people from the realities of their lives.  Now, as we meet and as we speak, they are being ripped off for home heating oil and fuel prices are soaring again, just as we told the Government they would. All the Government has ever done is the minimum and it has to be brought kicking and screaming to even do that. Let me just repeat, for the avoidance of doubt: this evening, we are bringing forward a concrete measure to address the removal of carbon taxes from home heating oil. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Thank you, Deputy. Your time is up. The Minister, Deputy Chambers, to respond. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mary Lou McDonald  We are simply asking that the Government do that now because families, households and businesses are struggling. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Deputies","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputies  Hear, hear. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  The Deputy's party continues to vote against all of the measures that we took, which made significant interventions that helped people when it came to the reductions of excise. Hers is the party of guff, day in, day out. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Deputies","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputies  Hear, hear. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  It is full of waffle, full of no solutions and its economic policies are a road to ruination. That is Sinn F\u00e9in, day in, day out. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mary Lou McDonald  Is that all the Minister has? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" A Deputy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" A Deputy  What about the children in poverty? "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(Interruptions)."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  The reason I say that is economic management and protecting the economy can never be described as \"guff\". Of course there are trade-offs and choices for the Government about how we want to prioritise resources and how we want to moderate day-to-day spending to protect Ireland's long-term future. Sinn F\u00e9in just produces double-digit levels of growth and expenditure and ramps up taxes on work and enterprise, on the very backbone of the Irish economy and prosperity, on the wealth creators who are giving us the opportunity through increased corporation tax to distribute that to help people across our economy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mary Lou McDonald  Developers. Banks. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor D. McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Conor D. McGuinness  Developers. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  It just shows that Sinn F\u00e9in cannot be trusted with the economy and with protecting Ireland when it comes to our future. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Deputies","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputies  Hear, hear. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(Interruptions)."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  I call Deputy Cian O'Callaghan. The Deputy is on his feet. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pearse Doherty  From the party that crashed the economy and brought the IMF here? Jesus Christ, we do not all have amnesia here. Come on. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Please proceed, Deputy O'Callaghan. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cian O'Callaghan  That is some nerve of Fianna F\u00e1il to give lectures about sound economic management. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Deputies","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputies  Hear, hear. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cian O'Callaghan  Seventy-seven percent is how much wholesale electricity prices have surged in the past year. That will not come as a surprise to the over 300,000 households currently in arrears, and it is not news to the people lying awake at night worrying about how they will keep the lights on.  We have to get off this endless merry-go-round of price shocks and soaring bills. The Minister knows, I know, we all know that we are particularly vulnerable to these price shocks because we are so dependent on fossil fuels. Trump is to blame for a lot of things, but he is not to blame for that. We are hooked on fossil fuels, and that is a direct result of this Government's incompetence and negligence, which has left hundreds of thousands of households hopelessly exposed. Where are people supposed to find the money for all these price increases? They are already trying to cobble together the cash to meet rising rents, mortgage payments, groceries and childcare costs. If they are relying on home heating oil, they will have seen the cost to fill soar by \u20ac700.  The pressure on individuals and families is now immense and never-ending, and the cracks are beginning to show. More than half a million households are behind on their electricity and gas bills. Unless the Government acts, it will get worse. That is why we must see a targeted energy credit of \u20ac400 in the budget. This would help those low- and middle-income families who desperately need it. It is a vital measure to provide them with some breathing room. However, the budget needs to go much further than that.  The harsh reality is that the Government has utterly failed to invest in solar and renewable energy, and it is families the length and breadth of this country who are now reaping the consequences of its failure. A no-brainer for the budget would be a massive investment in solar to bring people's energy bills down by at least \u20ac450 a year - this year, next year and every year. The Social Democrats have a solar-for-all plan that the Minister could implement. It would double the grants for solar panels, introduce a grant for battery storage and make solar panels free for households at risk of fuel poverty. Crucially, it would roll out plug-in solar. That is what we need to see - some real ambition from the Government.  These are measures that the Government could introduce in two weeks' time. They are sustainable and we have the money to pay for them. Will the Government introduce them or will it just keep making excuses? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  I reiterate that Government is cognisant of the serious pressure that many families and households face into the winter. That is taking centre stage in our Estimates discussions and how we examine different and further interventions on how we tax energy in the economy.  To give workers a break, there will be an income tax package, which will give some workers some respite through the winter period. In the social protection system, we want to target the fuel allowance allocation and other changes that will be under consideration to help those most in need and those facing the significant price rises over the winter period. The Minister, Deputy O'Brien, is working on some areas, which I will not comment on the detail of, relating to our grant support system and how we better calibrate it to promote renewable energy options, to get people off fossil fuels and to drive greater affordability. He is examining a range of options in that context in advance of budget 2027.  We are also looking at how we can drive affordability in the provision of different services, including childcare, the cost of disability and other mechanisms through our social protection system to help those most in need. It is unfair to say that the Government has done nothing. We have taken some of the biggest interventions per capita in Europe to mitigate the price rises. A total of \u20ac1 billion has been expended already on reductions in petrol and diesel. We are considering further options for home heating oil. Many households, in particular in rural Ireland, are impacted by that price rise, which is likely to continue and be sustained over the winter. That is why that range of options for tax and expenditure is under consideration by Government, all centred on helping people, targeting the most vulnerable and protecting people through the winter.  The Government is also prioritising sustainability. That is why the grant support systems that the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, is evaluating will be changed to help incentivise greater uptake of grants for energy sustainability. He will set that out in or around budget day. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cian O'Callaghan  Is the Minister's Government not ashamed that the one offshore wind farm we have is currently being dismantled? That is the Government's level of delivery of offshore renewables. In other countries that have invested, it has brought down people's energy bills. What is the Minister doing about it? We have over half a million households in electricity and gas arrears. I asked the Minister about a targeted energy credit and he had nothing to say about it. He has the resources to do it. All the advice is that he needs to target resources to help people who need it most. Has the Minister nothing to say about that? Will there be a targeted energy credit to lift those households out of energy arrears? What is he going to do for the households who are behind on their bills, are afraid to put the heat on, and are worried sick at night about what they are going to do? Will he adopt our proposal for a targeted energy credit? Will the Minister use the resources at his disposal to do something useful for those households? What does the Minister have to say about our constructive proposals for a targeted energy credit? Please answer that question. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  On the Deputy's first point, he has clearly not read the facts about electricity generation from renewables. It has increased five-fold since 2005. Regularly throughout the first half of 2026, almost half of Ireland's electricity came from renewable sources. Ireland has now reached a record of over 8 GW of renewable generation capacity, up from 4.8 GW in 2020. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cian O'Callaghan  It is not bringing down bills. It is going into data centres. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  Significant progress is being made on renewable energy. The Deputy needs to correct the record on that. He is dismissing progress. We have been clear that the broadened eligibility for fuel allowance last year has brought over 400,000 households into the social protection system. That is under consideration as a direct payment that is targeted at people in the lowest four income deciles in budget 2027. We want to use fuel allowance and other measures in our social protection system to help those most in need. That is the impulse of this Government, protecting the most vulnerable, supporting affordability and making sure we give workers and families a break when it comes to income tax. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ivana Bacik  Two weeks from today, the Minister, Deputy Chambers, will deliver his budget and, across the country, people want to know if it will bring down their household bills. They are being subjected to daily budget leaks now. The Minister for Finance cannot help himself, flying kites and doling out goodies, with a morsel here and a soundbite there.  It is like \"The Late Late Show\" of old; one for everyone in the audience but only if you happen to be in today\u2019s target interest group. So, what will it all add up to? Will it add up? Last year's certainly did not. Will the Minister learn from his mistakes of last year? In last year\u2019s budget, the Government ignored PAYE workers. Now we see union after union voting for strike action. It is extraordinary that the Minister has not yet had any meaningful engagement on public sector pay. Workers urgently need to know how he is going to address this and what he plans to do for PAYE workers this year.  Second, in last year\u2019s budget, the Minister pursued reckless and unsustainable spending policies. He gave an ineffective and expensive VAT cut to big burger chains, which we in the Labour Party strongly opposed. He left a shortfall of \u20ac600 million in the education budget. Unfortunately, it seems that this year we are seeing more of the same. The Defence Forces are now cutting student officer rations in a miserly and desperate effort to save \u20ac12 million. His flagship policy this year seems to be chasing global oil prices as Trump\u2019s war rages in Iran and the Middle East. Workers are watching as the Government spends more than a billion on untargeted fossil fuel subsidies, with hundreds of millions more to come.  Fine Gael is now spit-balling the idea of special investment accounts for those who already have money in the bank but, meanwhile, families cannot afford childcare costs or to put food on the table. Almost 70% of young people are looking beyond our shores for a better life, as the youth council reports today.  Will the Minister learn from last year\u2019s mistakes? Will he look to spend money where it can make a difference to communities, to help the hundreds of thousands now in arrears on their energy bills and the commuters facing enormous and outrageous public transport fare increases? The Minister needs to invest in alternatives. He needs to make it easier to switch to solar power, heat pumps, electric vehicles, bicycles and affordable public transport. We need a massive street-by-street retrofitting programme, as the Labour Party has called for, and the roll-out of a new urban and rural re-electrification programme, based on renewables, across the country. That is the best way to bring down household bills in a sustainable manner and tackle climate change. Instead, all the Minister offers are temporary, half measures, namely, untargeted fossil fuel subsidies.  Here are three choices the Labour Party is asking the Minister to make in this budget. First, will he meaningfully engage with public sector workers and deliver for PAYE workers? Second, will he properly fund public services like education, rather than narrowing the tax base further? Third, will he invest seriously in the climate transition, instead of continuing with unsustainable and untargeted fossil fuel subsidies? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  I am really surprised to see the Deputy label something like the fuel allowance as a fossil fuel subsidy. What would low-income workers and----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ivana Bacik  The Minister knows that is not what I am talking about. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  ----- the most vulnerable in our society say about that? It was an important measure taken by this Government. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Conor Sheehan  Jesus. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  I heard the Deputy on \"Morning Ireland\" in the past couple of weeks. She was asked a direct question. She was very much a leader on a hedge. She was not sure what way to go when it came to questions on the carbon tax and other matters. The Deputy should make up her own mind about what her policy direction is. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ivana Bacik  We are very clear what it is. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  We are very clear, as a Government, when it comes to supporting people and families around the cost of living. We will have targeted measures using our social protection system, as I have said. Second, the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, will bring forward changes to grants to incentivise and help families build sustainability in their own homes and ensure that there are more accessible grants for people who currently cannot afford them. There might be different views on how we should do that but that is something he wants to make positive progress on in the budgetary context as well. Everyone across this House would support that.  Third, when it comes to last year's budget, we obviously made decisions with respect to housing and taxation around housing to support greater supply in the economy, which has to be welcomed. Anything we can do to support increased housing supply has to be supported. We are correct to make that decision. Similarly, when it came to protecting jobs in the adjustment, particularly in regions and rural Ireland, VAT changes were made.  The Deputy's question related to public sector pay talks. We have obviously had a decision by trade unions to move to industrial action rather than engaging in substantive talks. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ivana Bacik  That is not the case. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Conor Sheehan  That is not true. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  It is deeply unfair on the public that there will be significant disruption to their daily lives because unions are unwilling to sit down----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Conor Sheehan  Not true. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  -----and engage constructively on a new agreement, which we want to have. This Government wants to have a fair, equitable deal for public sector workers. Our record on that is clear. If you take the lowest paid in the public service, their wage increases have far exceeded inflation over the past number of years. A clerical officer, teacher or nurse will have received in excess of 30%, when inflation is about 23%. We have targeted and supported the lowest income cohorts in terms of public sector workers.  We are clear that the only way to get a deal is for there to be intensive engagement. What we have had over the last two months is a process of balloting rather than substantive engagement. My officials remain open and willing to do that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor Sheehan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-Sheehan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Conor Sheehan  Why are they going on strike? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  Again, the Deputy just makes this generic point about funding public services. We have funded significant increases in public services over the last number of years. There has been nearly \u20ac10 billion more in our health system over a series of years. There have been significant increases in investment in our education system, particularly in special education, and rightly so, but no area of the public service or, indeed, public expenditure should be immune from greater reform, efficiencies and improved productivity. What we are doing in this budget as well is trying to drive greater outputs from the level of spend which has significantly increased in the last number of years. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Thank you, Minister. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  That is to make sure we get greater value for taxpayers and improved public services rather than it just being a binary discussion. which is what we get from the Opposition benches, about allocating more. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Deputy Bacik to respond. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  That is not sustainable. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ivana Bacik  I would agree with one thing. When the Minister says Fianna F\u00e1il has a clear record, it certainly does: it has a clear record on abandoning public sector workers. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ged Nash  Hear, hear. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ivana Bacik  The last time public sector unions went on strike was when Fianna F\u00e1il was in government. We are seeing the neglect and abandonment of the public sector PAYE workers again with Fianna F\u00e1il now in government. The Labour Party has put forward clear, costed proposals. We are the only party that did not support the narrowing of the tax base and stood against that reckless VAT cut for hospitality last year. We put forward very clear proposals for helping struggling households this summer just gone in our May mini-budget proposals which the Minister voted against. We have clearly put forward the need for targeted energy credits as a way of helping households who are now in arrears on energy bills but we also recognise, as the Minister does not seem to be able to do, that we need a more sustainable, long-term way of addressing spiralling energy bills and spiralling housing and childcare and grocery costs too. That is where our costed alternative budget that we will be launching next week will be putting forward constructive measures that are taking climate seriously----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  The Minister to respond. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ivana Bacik  -----and taking public sector workers seriously in a way that Fianna F\u00e1il does not seem capable of doing. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  The Deputy needs to study the facts. If you take the last five to six years, public pay has increased by in excess of \u20ac12 billion per year. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ivana Bacik  Where is the agreement? Where is the deal? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  That has resulted in a massive expansion of public services, more than 70,000 more people working across public services - in our education system and our health system and with the number of front-line garda\u00ed increasing year on year, and rightly so. We want to invest in better public services and ensure public sector workers are given a fair, equitable pay agreement. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ivana Bacik  The agreement ran out. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  That is why in the last pay deal we allowed for increases of 9.5% when inflation over the same period was about 6.5%, again, supporting a fair and equitable deal. That remains the case. We are a Government that will make provision for a public sector pay deal so people are paid fairly. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ivana Bacik  When? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  We are open an willing to engage with unions. Instead they are balloting their members. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ivana Bacik  They are waiting. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  That has been their prerogative. Over the last two months they have taken a course of balloting members rather than engaging in substantive discussions to give their members a pay deal. We are willing and open to do that and we will make provision for it as well. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Seamus Healy  The State is failing persons with disabilities and their carers. The disability services are in crisis on all levels. From the minute a parent or a guardian notices a difficulty with a child, they must fight for everything: for an assessment of needs, with over 22,000 children now waiting; for an appropriate cr\u00e8che place; for an appropriate school place; for access to therapy services; for respite places; and, indeed, for residential places. Today I want to focus on respite and residential services for adults with intellectual disabilities, that is, children transitioning to adulthood at 18 years and older adults.  Respite services for young adults are almost non-existent. They finish in school, special school usually, and effectively fall off a cliff. If they are lucky, they may get a weekend of respite every six months or maybe not at all. This puts huge pressure on family carers, who often become ill themselves. This leads to the question posed by the Before We Die campaign. That question is: \u201cWho will care for my son or daughter\u2019s needs when I am no longer able to do that or when I die?\u201d It is not uncommon to hear a parent say, \u201cI hope they go before me.\u201d  Some 92% of adults with an intellectual disability rely on a parent as their primary carer but only 2% of those have a plan in place for their future. Some 2,000 persons with an intellectual disability live with parents aged 70 years or over. Five hundred of those are with parents of 80 years of age or over. This means that, typically, residential places are provided only when an emergency arises or a carer becomes ill or passes away. This model of crisis management is cruel and heartless and more often than not means that the adult with the disability has to leave their community. Statistics show that over 600 reside in counties outside their own and over 200 reside more than 100 km from their previous home. This is also the most expensive way to provide services as they are provided by private, for-profit companies.  The services are in crisis and we need a new statutory agency, including the HSE, local authorities, section 38 and section 39 organisations and families, to plan and provide disability services. We need an emergency funded plan immediately. We need a statutory register of needs and a personal plan at age 18 for all adults as they go into adulthood. We need that urgently. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  I thank Deputy Healy for raising this really important issue. I acknowledge the Before We Die campaign and the dedication of the parents, the carers and the families behind it. We all know they speak from a place of deep concern about what will happen to their sons and daughters when they are no longer able to provide care themselves. That fear is real and deserves to be heard. The Minister, Deputy Foley, and the Minister of State, Deputy Higgins, have engaged directly with the group to hear their lived experience and to ensure that it informs the wider approach and direction of the Government on this issue. My colleagues, Deputies McAuliffe and Crowe, have also engaged extensively with the group. I am conscious of the profound impact this has on people with disabilities and their families, particularly ageing parents. We want to continue to support people to remain in their family homes for as long as they and their families wish. There is also the need, as Deputy Healy said, to significantly expand residential capacity. That is a clear priority for the Government. Some progress has been made, and that is reflected in the wider commitment we made as part of budget 2026 last year when it came to specialist disability services, which was a \u20ac3.8 billion allocation, almost 20% more than the year before. Of that, there has been a significant amount of funding to deliver residential services to support people to live independently in their communities.  Specifically on respite services, there has been particular investment. The amount of funding has doubled between 2021 and 2026, reaching \u20ac150 million in 2026. That funding supports the expansion of residential and respite services, day services, home support and personal support hours. That was complemented by \u20ac25 million in new development funding for respite in last year's budget. This is supporting an initiative expected to deliver 10,000 additional overnight sessions and 25,000 additional day sessions this year. The HSE's 2026 national service plan targets 175,000 respite sessions and 91,000 day-only sessions for the year.  I am conscious that just setting out some of the changes does not cut it for a lot of families who have not seen the benefits of this increased investment. We need not only to continue to prioritise this next year but also to ensure that the level of investment, which has increased exponentially in recent years, is prioritised around respite, particularly on some of the specific requests coming from this campaign, which is in all our communities. This is of growing concern to many parents, and that certainly will form the basis of my budget discussions with the Minister of State, Deputy Higgins, and the Minister, Deputy Foley. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Seamus Healy  The modest improvements the Minister has outlined are at best from a very low base, if not an almost non-existent base, but all individuals with disabilities have accessed services since childhood. It beggars belief that there is not a comprehensive national database and register of needs for those individuals.  These must be put in place as a matter of urgency. As the Minister knows, every adult with a disability has a right to live as independently as possible within their own community, with the supports they need and with dignity, autonomy and security. Urgent action needs to be taken to provide respite as residential care. An emergency funded plan is needed in the forthcoming budget for adults with intellectual disability living with parents who are aged 70 years or over. These parents cannot wait for systemic change. They need action now. Will the Minister include emergency funding in the budget he is due to introduce in two weeks' time? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  I share the view that we need to see continued expansion of the availability, frequency and range of respite options in order that people with disabilities, their families and carers have the support they need now and into the future. We need to use each budget to deliver progress in that area.  In 2025, the HSE delivered 164,000 respite nights to 7,500 people, alongside more than 65,000 day-only respite sessions. That was an 82% increase in day sessions and a 24% increase in respite nights compared with pre-pandemic levels. There has been significant progress over the past number of years. I am not going to argue with the Deputy about those who have not seen the benefits. The Government needs to ensure that in each budget and in how we organise disability services and respite care, that there is continued momentum and progress, particularly where we know that demand is continuing to grow. That has been reflected by the Before We Die campaign group. It is something we want to continue to prioritise in 2027. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna \u00f3 Cheannair\u00ed - Leaders' Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_4","debateType":"orderofBusiness","bill":null,"showAs":"An tOrd Gn\u00f3 - Order of Business","counts":{"speechCount":54,"speakerCount":22},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_4","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Mac Lochlainn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Duncan Smith","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Duncan-Smith.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Duncan-Smith.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ken O'Flynn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ken-O'Flynn.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ken-O'Flynn.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Willie O'Dea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Willie-O'Dea.D.1982-03-09","memberCode":"Willie-O'Dea.D.1982-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Brennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Brian-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Claire Kerrane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-O'Donoghue.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Robert-O'Donoghue.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Liam Quaide","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter 'Chap' Cleere","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-'Chap'-Cleere.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Peter-'Chap'-Cleere.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Carol Nolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  In accordance with Standing Order 35, I call on the Chief Whip, Deputy Butler, to move the arrangements for this week's business. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Deputy Mary Butler)  I move:  Tuesday's business shall be:  - Motion re Ministerial Rota for Parliamentary Questions (1) (without debate and any division claimed to be taken immediately)  - Motion re Ministerial Rota for Parliamentary Questions (2) (without debate and any division claimed to be taken immediately)  - Motion re Fifteenth Report of the Standing Committee of Selection (without debate and any division claimed to be taken immediately)  - Social Welfare, Civil Registration and Charities (Amendment) Bill 2026 (Second Stage) (to conclude at the end of the first speaking round; not to exceed 3 hours and 34 minutes)  Tuesday's private members' business shall be the Second Stage of the Home Heating Oil (Emergency Mineral Oil Tax Reduction) Bill 2026, selected by Sinn F\u00e9in.  Wednesday's business shall be:  - Disability (Amendment) Bill 2026 (Second Stage) (to conclude at the end of the first speaking round; not to exceed 3 hours and 34 minutes)  - Motion re Proposed approval by D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann of the Defective Concrete Blocks Social Homes Scheme 2026 (to conclude within 60 minutes and any division claimed to be taken immediately)  - Motion re Proposed approval by D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann for a Council Decision on the conclusion of the Agreement between the European Union and the Republic of Korea on Passenger Name Record data*  - Motion re Proposed approval by D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann for a Council Decision on the signing of the Agreement between the European Union and the Republic of Korea on Passenger Name Record data*  *Two separate motions to be debated together and brought to a conclusion within 60 minutes, with questions to be put on each motion separately; and any divisions claimed to be taken immediately Wednesday's private members' business shall be the Motion re Fuel, Energy and Carbon Tax Relief, selected by Independent Technical Group.  Thursday's business shall be:  - Statements on World Pharmacists Week (not to exceed 2 hours and 25 minutes)  Thursday evening business shall be the Second Stage of the Electricity Regulation (Climate Action and Connection to Distribution and Transmission Systems) Bill 2025, sponsored by Deputy Ciar\u00e1n Ahern.  Proposed Arrangements for this week\u2019s business:  In relation to Tuesday\u2019s business, it is proposed that:  1. notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders:  (a) the only Parliamentary Questions to the Taoiseach pursuant to Standing Order 47(1) which may be answered shall be those under the aegis of the Government Chief Whip, with consequential effect on the commencement time for Government business;  (b) the time allocated to Government business shall be extended in accordance with the arrangements for that business and the D\u00e1il may sit later than 10.48 p.m.; and  (c) private members\u2019 business shall be taken following proceedings on the Second Stage of the Social Welfare, Civil Registration and Charities (Amendment) Bill 2026 with consequential effect on the commencement times for the items following in the ordinary routine of business;  2. the proceedings on the Motion re Ministerial Rota for Parliamentary Questions (1) shall be taken without debate and any division claimed thereon shall be taken immediately;  3. the proceedings on the Motion re Ministerial Rota for Parliamentary Questions (2) shall be taken without debate and any division claimed thereon shall be taken immediately;  4. the proceedings on the Motion re Fifteenth Report of the Standing Committee of Selection shall be taken without debate and any division claimed thereon shall be taken immediately;  5. the proceedings on the Second Stage of the Social Welfare, Civil Registration and Charities (Amendment) Bill 2026 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at the end of the first speaking round and the following arrangements shall apply:  (a) the first-round speeches shall be in accordance with the table below (to be read across);  (b) on conclusion of the first speaking round or where speeches conclude before the 3 hours and 24 minutes have elapsed and no other member is offering, a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a speech in reply which shall not exceed 10 minutes; and  (c) members may share time; and         Gov    SF    SD    Gov    SF      Mins    20    20    20    12    4          Lab    Gov    SF    IPTG    Gov      Mins    20    12    4    20    12          SF    ITG    Gov    SF    OM      Mins    4    20    12    4    20      Total: 3 hours 24 mins                          6. notwithstanding anything in Standing Order 177(2), the proceedings on the Second Stage of the Home Heating Oil (Emergency Mineral Oil Tax Reduction) Bill 2026 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 2 hours.  In relation to Wednesday's business, it is proposed that:  1. notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, the weekly division time may be taken earlier than 8.45 p.m. and shall, in any event, be taken on the conclusion of Government Business;  2. the proceedings on the Second Stage of the Disability (Amendment) Bill 2026 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at the end of the first speaking round and the following arrangements shall apply:  (a) the first-round speeches shall be in accordance with the table below (to be read across);  (b) on conclusion of the first speaking round or where speeches conclude before the 3 hours and 24 minutes have elapsed and no other member is offering, a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a speech in reply which shall not exceed 10 minutes; and  (c) members may share time;         Gov    SF    SD    Gov    SF      Mins    20    20    20    12    4          Lab    Gov    SF    IPTG    Gov      Mins    20    12    4    20    12          SF    ITG    Gov    SF    OM      Mins    4    20    12    4    20      Total: hours 24 mins                          3. the proceedings on the Motion re Proposed approval by D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann of the Defective Concrete Blocks Social Homes Scheme 2026 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 60 minutes and the following arrangements shall apply thereto:  (a) the order of speaking and allocation of time shall be as follows:-  \u2014 opening speech by a Minister or Minister of State \u2013 10 minutes;  \u2014 speeches by representatives of Sinn F\u00e9in, Social Democrats, the Labour Party, Independent and Parties Technical Group, and Independent Technical Group \u2013 7.5 minutes per party or group;  \u2014 speeches by non-party\/group members \u2013 7.5 minutes in total; and  \u2014 a speech in response by the Minister \u2013 5 minutes;  (b) members may share time; and  (c) any division claimed thereon shall be taken immediately; and  4. the proceedings on the Motions on Proposals for Council Decisions on the signing of, and the conclusion of, the Agreement between the European Union and the Republic of Korea on the transfer of Passenger Name Record data shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 60 minutes and the following arrangements shall apply thereto:  (a) the two motions shall be debated together, with separate questions put on all proceedings thereon;  (b) the order of speaking and allocation of time shall be as follows:-  \u2014 opening speech by a Minister or Minister of State \u2013 10 minutes;  \u2014 speeches by representatives of Sinn F\u00e9in, Social Democrats, the Labour Party, Independent and Parties Technical Group, and Independent Technical Group \u2013 7.5 minutes per party or group;  \u2014 speeches by non-party\/group members \u2013 7.5 minutes in total; and  \u2014 a speech in response by the Minister \u2013 5 minutes;  (c) members may share time; and  (d) any divisions claimed thereon shall be taken immediately.  In relation to Thursday's business, it is proposed that:  1. notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, topical issues may be taken earlier than 7.24 p.m. with consequential effect on the commencement time for Second Stage of the Electricity Regulation (Climate Action and Connection to Distribution and Transmission Systems) Bill 2025, and on the time for the adjournment of the D\u00e1il; and  2. the Statements on World Pharmacists Week shall not exceed 2 hours and 25 minutes and the following arrangements shall apply:  (a) the statements, not including the Ministerial response, shall be in accordance with the sequence contained in the table immediately below (to be read across);  (b) following the statements, a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement in reply which shall not exceed 10 minutes; and  (c) members may share time.         Gov    SF    SD    Gov    SF      Mins    25    15    10    10    3          Lab    Gov    SF    IPTG    Gov      Mins    10    10    3    9    10          SF    ITG    Gov    SF    OM      Mins    3    9    10    3    5      Total: 2 hours 15 mins                           "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Are the proposed arrangements agreed? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett  Not agreed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Mac Lochlainn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy P\u00e1draig Mac Lochlainn  The testimony of the four Garda whistleblowers on the \"RT\u00c9 Investigates\" programme has caused serious concern. Requests have been made for the Minister at that time, Helen McEntee, to come before the D\u00e1il in order to take statements and engage in a question-and-answers session. Such is the seriousness of what is emerging, the Taoiseach also needs to come before the House. Can we get a commitment from the Government that this will happen as soon as those involved return from the United Nations Assembly? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Gary Gannon  Given the state of the revelations in last week's \"RT\u00c9 Investigates\" programme, how long does this Government believe it is tenable not to allow either the current justice Minister and the previous one to come into the Chamber to answer questions regarding the architecture of the protected disclosures office? Garda confidence has been massively undermined, as testified to by the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors and the Garda Representative Association calling for an external inquiry. Before then, we need answers from the Government. We cannot continue with this ducking. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Duncan Smith","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Duncan-Smith.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Duncan-Smith.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Duncan Smith  I find it incredible that we do not have a commitment for a debate with both the former and current Ministers for justice about the ramifications of the whistleblower documentary last week. The budget will not distract us from seeking this debate. We are objecting this week. We will object next week. We will object every week until the debate happens. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett  We need an urgent debate this week on the threat of an armed march going through the Garvaghy Road to Drumcree Church at the weekend. I met with the Garvaghy Road residents yesterday. That mostly Catholic area is gripped with fear and anxiety that after 28 years of not having to face these triumphalist sectarian marches that have incited loyalist killings and led to sectarian violence, what is due to happen at the weekend will drag their area and the North back into sectarian conflict. This matter needs to be debated as a matter of urgency. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ken O'Flynn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ken-O'Flynn.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ken-O'Flynn.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ken O'Flynn  Further to the revelations in today's newspapers to the effect that doctors are looking for an outright ban on scrambler bikes, despite the fact that we have new laws coming in, it has emerged that 1,100 children have attended hospital on foot of e-scooter injuries in the past five years. There have been 59 serious injuries, some involving organ displacement, have been reported. This House needs to have a debate on that matter. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mary Butler  I have heard from all the whips about the changes they would like on the Order of Business this week. We have important business on the schedule that we need to get through. As everybody watching knows, there is Government time and Opposition time. The Opposition can use its time for anything it wishes to discuss. The Order of Business stands. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Are the arrangements for the business agreed to? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Mac Lochlainn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy P\u00e1draig Mac Lochlainn  With respect to the Government Chief Whip, she knows what we asked for, namely statements. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Deputy Mac Lochlainn has had his time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"P\u00e1draig Mac Lochlainn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"P\u00e1draig-MacLochlainn.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy P\u00e1draig Mac Lochlainn  This needs statements and accountability from the Minister. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Could he please resume his seat? Are the proposed arrangements agreed to? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Gary Gannon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Gary-Gannon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Gary Gannon  They are not agreed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Lou McDonald","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Mary-Lou-McDonald.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mary Lou McDonald  I want to raise again the urgent situation on the Garvaghy Road in Portadown. As the Minister will be aware, the Parades Commission is about to consider an Orange Order application to march down the Garvaghy Road this Sunday. For 28 years, this community has lived with relative peace. The dispute, which was long-running and carried a high human cost, was resolved. It is just incredible that anybody would seek to reopen that matter and bring the anxiety, stress and instability that all of that would mean. This is a very serious political and, potentially, community crisis and the Irish Government cannot be a passive observer. I wrote to the Taoiseach, as did the residents, I understand, looking for a meeting. We have sought for some level within government to engage directly with residents. Will this happen, when will it happen, and who will lead that effort? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  I thank Deputy McDonald. I appreciate the Deputy raising this important matter. As the Taoiseach said last week, his officials have been engaged on this. I have not got a specific update with respect to the Deputy's request for a meeting. As the Taoiseach said, there is a process that is being kept under review. However, I will raise the matter with the Taoiseach and the Minister for foreign affairs and ask them to respond directly to the Deputy. I appreciate the concerns that the Deputy has raised here. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  The Taoiseach and the T\u00e1naiste have recognised that what is happening in Gaza is a genocide but the Department of justice does not seem to think it has ever happened because it is asking people to access documents when most of the buildings in Gaza have been razed to the ground and more than 70,000 people are now dead. What the Department is asking of these students who are trying to study here is the impossible when they have already overcome impossible barriers. It was impossible to continue in education when you were being rained down on by bullets and bombs in a tent, impossible to raise the funds to access these courses, and impossible to place these courses themselves. Might I add that the institutions are opening their arms and their doors to welcome these students in. When will the Government read the room and reverse its decision to block these students from studying here in Ireland? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  We all accept that the level of suffering inflicted on the civilian population who are not responsible for the actions of Hamas is wrong - it is an affront to human decency - and we have repeatedly opposed and strongly condemned Israel's actions in Gaza and the West Bank, the blatant disregard for international law and the ongoing expansion of settlements. Certainly, my colleagues at the UN will be reflecting that during the week. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  Student visas. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  On the issue of visas, and as the Deputy will be aware, there is a well-established process in the Department of justice that assesses every visa application. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  But the Government changed the goalposts this year. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  No, Deputy. It does not work like that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  I understand that some may have been granted and that others are still being assessed, but there is a well-established process that is progressed and through which an assessment is made of each individual case. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sin\u00e9ad Gibney","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sin\u00e9ad-Gibney.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sin\u00e9ad Gibney  The Government is moving the goalposts. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ivana Bacik","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Ivana-Bacik.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ivana Bacik  Today, the British Prime Minister, Andy Burnham, has announced that women employees will be provided with two weeks' leave to grieve and recover following a miscarriage before 24 weeks. It is now five years since I first introduced legislation in the Seanad to provide for workplace leave along the same lines here. I refer to leave when it matters most - compassionate leave. My Bill received unanimous support from Senators then, including Government Senators, but progress since then has been glacially slow, held up by Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael. Tomorrow, my Labour colleague, Deputy Marie Sherlock, will bring the Bill to the enterprise committee on the next Stage. This is our latest attempt to move the dial to support women through pregnancy loss and couples through fertility treatment and to make our workplaces more compassionate. Will the Government listen to the thousands of people, mainly women, who have contacted all of our offices over the years, take the proposal on and, crucially, make it law this year that employees can receive recognition in the workplace where they endure an early miscarriage? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  I thank Deputy Bacik for raising this important issue. As she will know, the Government approved the general scheme of the pregnancy loss leave Bill in July of this year, the aim of which is to introduce for the first time in Irish law statutory leave for pregnancy loss prior to 23 weeks' gestation.  I acknowledge the work of Deputies Bacik and Sherlock on the matter.  The Minister for enterprise is now working on drafting this legislation as a matter of priority and I hope all parties in the House will be able to progress the policy outcome on this through legislation as quickly as possible when it concludes. I appreciate the Deputy raising it today. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruth Coppinger  There was a report in the Irish Independent at the weekend that a young woman who suspected she had been raped in Dublin city while intoxicated is now facing criminal charges, potentially, for false reporting. Not only that but it has been decided that all the resources of the Irish State should go into dragging this woman back from France where she lives, via extradition. As we know, it is not unusual for intoxicated people to be attacked violently and not to recall all the details. The implications of this decision are huge. The number of sexual offences that are reported could not fall any lower and the Director of Public Prosecutions, DPP, routinely does not prosecute 67% of all sexual offences. For some incredible reason, the DPP and garda\u00ed have decided to prosecute this woman. The message this would send to survivors who may have been drugged or intoxicated when they were attacked and might not remember all the details is incredible. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Thank you. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruth Coppinger","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","memberCode":"Ruth-Coppinger.D.2014-05-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruth Coppinger  I hasten to add that nobody has been falsely accused or charged, so I do not see why this is happening. There will be a protest at the DPP's office at 1 p.m. on Friday against this. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  I thank the Deputy for raising this matter. I have not read the newspaper article she referred to or about the case she referenced so I do not want to make any inappropriate comment. As a Government, we seek to support any victim of sexual assault properly through policies and through the resourcing of our agencies and An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na. I have not seen or read the detail the Deputy referenced, so I will not comment on it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ken O'Flynn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ken-O'Flynn.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ken-O'Flynn.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ken O'Flynn  There is a growing call for a public inquiry into the handling of protected disclosures in An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na and I support that. However, I believe it must go much further. The concerns around protected disclosures seem to extend to the public service, An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, the Prison Service, the HSE, financial services and beyond. I raised this matter previously in the D\u00e1il, and my party raised it in a Private Members' Bill, to strengthen protected disclosure protections for whistleblowers, which was rejected by the Government.  The Minister will be aware, as it was mentioned on the floor of the House previously, Mr. Ciar\u00e1n Kenneally, a former Tusla employee submitted a second protected disclosure in November 2025, following on from confirmation by the Data Protection Commission that Tusla had unlawfully processed his personal data. While the disclosure was acknowledged, he is still waiting for the investigation to be commenced more than a year after making that protected disclosure. Will the Government now commit to the holding of a comprehensive public inquiry into the operation of protected disclosures? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  I thank the Deputy. As my colleagues said last week and at the weekend, it is not appropriate to comment on any specific cases that are ongoing and I will not be doing so today.  The Government will be commencing a review of the Protected Disclosures Act this year, which will begin with a public consultation and an opportunity for all stakeholders to participate in that review to ensure the legislative framework we have is fit for purpose and meets all the respective inputs of stakeholders and everyone involved, including those who have made protected disclosures. However, I cannot comment on the specific case the Deputy referenced. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Willie O'Dea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Willie-O'Dea.D.1982-03-09","memberCode":"Willie-O'Dea.D.1982-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Willie O'Dea  The CCTV monitoring system for Limerick city and county, currently located in Moyross, oversees 360 community cameras spread throughout Limerick city and county. Unfortunately, within the next ten days it is due to close with the loss of 11 jobs and dire consequences for crime prevention and detection in Limerick city and surrounding areas. This is due to the loss of funding from the social inclusion fund, which, as the Minister knows, is being gradually wound down. It has left a deficit of approximately \u20ac660,000, which is needed to enable this service to continue for the next 12 months.  I cannot overstate the amount of anxiety in the community, particularly among members of An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na, about the loss of these cameras and the effect it will have on crime detection in the Limerick area. People are pleading with me to ask the Government to intervene to save the service and put it on a sustainable basis. Is it proposed to do so? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  I thank the Deputy for raising this important matter. It is clear that the service should be sustained, particularly if investment has happened and the service is of such importance to An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na and to the local community in Limerick. I will speak to the Minister for justice to ensure that it is examined and that the service can continue. I appreciate the Deputy's advocacy on this matter. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Brennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Brian-Brennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Brian Brennan  I again raise the matter of public transport in the south east, particularly rail and bus links for our commuters. Gorey is one of the fastest -growing towns in Ireland. Arklow is on the verge of huge expansion. Rathdrum is ideally placed for easy access to Dublin. Rosslare port continues to grow. However, these towns and their rural hinterlands are woefully underserved by a rail service that is inconvenient, infrequent and low-capacity. There are no imminent plans for improvement. Commuters also struggle with the reliability of the current bus links. Local Link has been transformative for our rural communities but there is demand for significant increases in services and frequency. Quite simply, the current rail and bus services cannot cope with the demand as the populations of Wexford and Wicklow continue to grow. We need a coherent plan for transport infrastructure in the south east. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  I thank Deputy Brennan. To be clear, the significant increase in transport infrastructure investment over the next four years will be seen in the south east. This investment is twofold. First, we want to see significant capacity improvements. That will obviously involve upgrades to existing infrastructure. In addition, the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, is doing work on the public service obligation to ensure that the demands of an increased population are met by an improved service experience in some of the towns and villages in the south east the Deputy has mentioned. The work the Minister is doing as part of budget 2027 is to significantly enhance the capacity of public transport more widely in 2027 and in the years to come. This is to match the significant uplift in infrastructure investment whose positive benefits will be seen by citizens across the country. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Claire Kerrane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Claire-Kerrane.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Claire Kerrane  I hope the Minister will consider the Sinn F\u00e9in legislation being debated here this evening to reduce the cost of home heating oil. The households of the vast majority of the people I represent, the people of Roscommon and Galway, use home heating oil. As we approach the budget, there will be a lot of focus on the fuel allowance. The fuel allowance is well and good for those who receive it. It is a help to them. However, the vast majority of working people do not receive the fuel allowance. The evenings are getting darker and there will be pressure in terms of electricity and heating. I ask for a major focus, to include advertising, to be put on the additional needs payment as quickly as possible so that working people will know there is some support for them. No families should be in the dark or cold in their homes as we approach the winter. I ask for the ramping-up of as wide a campaign as possible with regard to the additional needs payments so that workers will know that it is there and that it is not just available to people who are in receipt of social welfare payments. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  I thank Deputy Kerrane for raising this issue. I will reflect her requests to the Minister, Deputy Calleary. To echo what I said earlier on, we want to ensure that, through the decisions we make, we prioritise concerns about the cost of living in the budget. I refer particularly to issues relating to home heating oil. Using the social protection system will be critical in mitigating the issues facing those most in need, the 400,000 households who currently benefit from it. I will ask the Minister, Deputy Calleary, to consider what the Deputy has said so that people understand the possibilities of making an application through that process. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Robert O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Robert-O'Donoghue.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Robert-O'Donoghue.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Robert O'Donoghue  I will address the rise in antisocial behaviour in Dublin Fingal West. I do not do so lightly. It is a fantastic part of the country with a great sense of community spirit, which we are all rightly proud of. However, we cannot ignore what is happening. A lack of visible Garda resources is allowing some people to take advantage. We all saw the serious incident at Skerries Harbour during the summer. There is open drug dealing in our towns and some teenagers are recording vicious attacks and putting the videos on social media. Our garda\u00ed are doing their very best but they need resources and a local presence to do their jobs effectively. The local Garda stations in Rush, Lusk and Skerries, which are now towns of over 10,000 people, are open for two hours a week, which is not enough. I ask the Minister to tackle this head-on and to start putting garda\u00ed back where they belong: in our communities, on our streets and back in the police stations of north County Dublin. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  I thank the Deputy for raising this important issue. I appreciate the concern he has referenced in the growing communities of Dublin Fingal West, which have seen increased antisocial behaviour over recent months. As a Government, we have sought to significantly expand the numbers in An Garda S\u00edoch\u00e1na.  By the end of this year or early next year, we should exceed 15,000 garda\u00ed. Combined with the civilianisation we have seen in recent years, that allows for significant enhancement and redeployment of garda\u00ed onto the front line. I will try to come back to the Deputy with information from the Minister for justice on the specific allocation. I know a lot of the newer probationary garda\u00ed have gone to some of the suburban parts of Dublin in the past 12 months, reflecting some of the demographic changes we are seeing but also the need for increased policing and visibility. I will reflect the concerns raised by the Deputy to the Minister , who can relay that to the Garda. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Liam Quaide","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Liam-Quaide.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Liam Quaide  Overcrowding on the Midleton-Cork rail line is reaching farcical levels. For a prolonged period, peak-time services have been left operating with just two carriages. This morning, a constituent told me the train was again dangerously overcrowded, with the driver on one journey having to get out to stop commuters boarding at Glounthaune and Little Island. My colleague, Councillor Eamonn Horgan, has been raising this issue over the past year. Irish Rail accepts that peak-time services are overcrowded but says there are no spare carriages available.  The Minister's own figures show Ireland collected \u20ac32.9 billion in corporation tax last year. Why is his Department so tight-fisted with the basics while revenues of that scale are coming in? How can we have so little to show for such extraordinary resources that these Cork commuters are still being packed into two-carriage trains just to get to work and college? People in Youghal are in a much worse predicament, with no rail and a shambles of a bus services that would drive you to despair. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  As I said to Deputy Brennan, the capital investment in transport is due to significantly increase in the next number of years. If one takes the Cork area commuter rail programme, which the Deputy did not mention, for example, there will be significant progress in the wider Cork area over the next number of months and, indeed, the next number of years, where people will see improvements in public transport, in particular. The work we are doing with the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, is to ensure the bus service complements the significant enhancement of the commuter rail programme.  We are absolutely clear that, through our fiscal plan, we want to prioritise infrastructure investment in public transport and our wider transport system to ensure we reduce congestion and improve the commuter experience for many people who use public transport. With the progress being made by Irish Rail, such as the double tracking between Glounthaune and Midleton and other progress across the Cork area commuter rail plan, people will see the improvements over the period ahead. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Naoise-\u00d3-Cear\u00fail.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Naoise \u00d3 Cear\u00fail  Annual antisocial behaviour on Aghards green in Celbridge in County Kildare has now become criminal activity leading up to Halloween. It is becoming a longer process. We previously had bonfires. Now, we have cars driving over greens and scramblers. This is right beside the national school, Scoil Mochua, and also beside the playground. Residents' houses are being smashed. Front windows are being smashed and there are Garda investigations under way there. The Garda is doing its very best in increasing patrols and trying to help the residents of this area but what we need in Celbridge and Kildare, because we have the lowest ratio of garda\u00ed per capita in the country, is increased numbers of garda\u00ed and Garda resources. I ask the Minister, Deputy Chambers, and the Minister for justice, Deputy Jim O'Callaghan, for the Leixlip district and Celbridge Garda station to be afforded additional resources to tackle this issue. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  I thank the Deputy. I regret that the local residents are experiencing such challenges with antisocial behaviour. As the Deputy said, that is worsening and exacerbated by the darker evenings. I will ask the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, to respond. Similar issues were raised by others earlier in the engagement. I will ask the Minister to reflect on the particular need for growing commuter areas to see the benefits of increased police numbers. That should exceed 15,000 in the next number of months. That will provide additional opportunities to the Commissioner to deploy extra garda\u00ed in those areas that are most in need. The Deputy is right; we need to see improved visibility in that context. I will reflect that to the Minister for justice and I appreciate the Deputy raising it today. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter 'Chap' Cleere","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-'Chap'-Cleere.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Peter-'Chap'-Cleere.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Peter 'Chap' Cleere  Kilkenny City Vocational School and Col\u00e1iste Pobail Osra\u00ed are both excellent schools that do hugely important work for young people and the wider Kilkenny community. However, their new school campus project has been stuck at stage 2B for quite some time. The school community and I are eager to see it progressed to the next stage as a matter of urgency. I spoke with both schools and school leaderships last week. Certainty around capital funding is needed. This project would provide modern, fit for purpose facilities and would be a vital investment in both schools and the wider school community and be a positive boost for the whole of Kilkenny city. I ask that capital funding be made available as soon as possible so that the project can move to tender stage. After all of the work and commitment in getting the project to this stage, the school communities deserve certainty and a clear pathway to delivery. God knows they have waited long enough. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  I thank the Deputy for raising this matter. I know he has raised it a number of times with the Taoiseach and others. In terms of education funding more generally, there was a \u20ac5 billion allocation in the previous five-year cycle in the national development plan. We prioritised educational resourcing of a 50% increase in the 2025-2030 plan to \u20ac7.5 billion. The Minister for education has published the sectoral investment plan for education. I appreciate the wider uncertainty, the lack of clarity that is reflected in the school community and the importance of progress in terms of it being stuck at 2B. I will ask the Minister for education to engage with the school on this matter. The level of funding should provide for the significant enhancement of existing school buildings but also for new schools right across the country. We sought to prioritise it in the national development plan and I will ask for the school to be provided with more certainty on the matter. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"William Aird","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"William-Aird.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy William Aird  I raise the issue of school transport. I have been inundated with contacts from parents whose children do not have a school bus ticket this year. Many of them had tickets for several years but, this year, they have none. These include children going into sixth class in primary school and sixth year in post-primary school. There is confusion regarding the difference between eligible and concessionary tickets. There is a lack of clarity about how distances are measured. Some children have no seat just because the bus is too small. We cannot expect children to move school because transport has changed. As one parent put it simply to me, the children get their books and their school meals but what good is any of that if they cannot get to school? I ask the Minister to ensure the shortcomings in the school transport scheme are urgently addressed so that children are not left behind before the school day even begins. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  I thank the Deputy for raising this important issue. I regret that some students in Laois have had that direct experience. As a Government, we have all supported a significant expansion in this over the last number of years. There were around 120,000 children using the service in 2019. That figure is now 181,000 in 2026. Matched with that has been an unprecedented level of funding to support the service. There was \u20ac219 million allocated in 2019 and that is due to exceed \u20ac600 million this year. As a Government, we have prioritised supporting rural school transport right across the country. This is managed on behalf of the State and Government by Bus \u00c9ireann, which co-ordinates the wider day-to-day operation of the service.  I will ask my colleagues in the Department of education to engage with the Deputy to try to resolve some of the issues that are there for some students. In the wider complexity and organisation of this, I accept there are particular issues in certain areas which raise their head every year. I will ask the Department to engage with the Deputy on it and I regret that students have had that experience. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh  We are here again. There are so many children in my constituency in south Kildare who do not have an appropriate school place - or any school place - yet this year. I raise the case of two particular families. They are families who have done everything right. They engaged with the NCSE and applied to schools across their area and well beyond and yet their children remain at home while their peers and siblings are in classrooms. It is having a devastating impact on their development. One child, Kayden from Monasterevin, is autistic and has already spent a year being home schooled. His parents have applied to 20 schools over the past two years and homeschooling just is not meeting his needs. Another child, Jack from the Curragh, finished primary school in June. Jack is autistic and has a moderate intellectual disability. He has been refused by all of his local special schools. These families are heartbroken. More importantly, two vulnerable children are being denied their right to education. What immediate action will the Government take to secure appropriate school places for these children don scoilbhliain seo? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  I thank the Deputy. I acknowledge the particular instances of the children she has raised. We have sought to prioritise special education funding in the past successive series of years. In 2026, there is a \u20ac3 billion allocation for special education - the highest annual provision in the history of the State and a 58% increase since 2020.  That has allowed for a significant expansion of special classes, supporting increased numbers of SNAs and teachers in special education right across the country, as well as 16 new special schools. I do not have a specific localised brief on the case the Deputy raised but I will ask that the Department of education and particularly NCSE, which is tasked with this matter, engage with the parents to provide some certainty on when an appropriate school place will be provided. That is what we are seeking to do in how we prioritise funding in this area. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Carol Nolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Carol Nolan  Last week, I met the Offaly IFA branch at the Ploughing Championships in Tullamore. It was emphasised to me and many other politicians, including our MEPs, that it is vital that a CAP budget of at least \u20ac500 billion is secured in the upcoming negotiations. If that is not secured and, for instance, if there is a 42% change to the CAP budget, in my county of Offaly, it would lead to a loss of \u20ac9.1 million every year from 2028 to 2034 and a loss of 100 jobs every year for that period also. It is extremely concerning. It is important to note that CAP is not a bonus for our Irish farmers. It is the foundation that supports family farming, food production, rural communities and, of course, our economy. Any weakening of the CAP budget would be a direct threat to our economy, to rural Ireland and to the family farm. We need urgent intervention. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jack Chambers","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Jack-Chambers.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Jack Chambers  I thank Deputy Nolan for raising this important issue. Like her, I met with the IFA last week at the Ploughing Championship and I acknowledged its concerns based on the current draft proposals for the multi-annual financial framework in Europe on which negotiation is continuing. The Taoiseach, the T\u00e1naiste as Minister of Finance, and the Minister of State, Deputy Byrne, are all co-ordinating Ireland's position on that but also reflecting our position in the context of the European Presidency at the moment. CAP represents a long-standing strategic investment not only in Ireland's position in terms of agrifood production but also supporting farmers in the context of the importance of the European Union's food security. There is a long way to go in this negotiation. Clearly, we want to see protection of farmers but also continued enhancement of agrifood production in this country. We need to support farm incomes and also support generational renewal which is another priority that the IFA and others have referenced. We will continue to work on that over the months ahead. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"An tOrd Gn\u00f3 - Order of Business"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_9","debateType":"debate","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/89","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/89\/dail\/1","houseCode":"dail","stage":"1","isBillStage":true,"showAs":"Public Health (Tobacco) (Amendment) (Smokefree Generation) Bill 2026: First Stage (D\u00e1il)"}},"showAs":"Public Health (Tobacco) (Amendment) (Smokefree Generation) Bill 2026: First Stage","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_9","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Malcolm Byrne  I move:  That leave be granted to introduce a Bill entitled an Act to amend the Public Health (Tobacco) Acts 2002 to 2024 to prohibit the sale and supply of tobacco products, nicotine products and nicotine inhalation products to persons born on or after 1 January 2009; to provide for related offences, enforcement and penalties; and to provide for related matters.  I am grateful for the opportunity to speak on this. The purpose of this Bill is to amend the Public Health (Tobacco) Acts 2002 to 2024 to introduce smoke-free generation measures, whereby the sale and supply of tobacco products, nicotine products and nicotine inhalation products will be prohibited to persons born on or after the 1 January 2019, those who turn 18 on or after 1 January 2027. The idea behind this measure is that it will provide a rolling age restriction, ensuring that the specified cohort will never be legally permitted to purchase some of these products over their lifetime. We know that about 100 people in Ireland die every week from nicotine-related illnesses and about 1,000 people are hospitalised every week.  The major causes, as we know, are cancer, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, COPD, and heart disease. The RCSI in estimating the costs of smoking has calculated that in Ireland there are about 5 million years in shorter lives as a result of smoking, 2.5 million years in productivity lost and the net cost to our healthcare system is \u20ac20.2 billion. Even in pure economic terms, being able to address this issue is critical.  This legislation has strong support from organisations such as the Irish Cancer Society, the Irish Heart Foundation and many medics operating in this area. I am very grateful for their support and for the engagement that I have had with them over the past number of months in the preparation of this legislation. I also know that many youth groups and organisations support this. FDYS in Wexford raised a lot of awareness about the dangers of vapes to young people. Comhairle na n\u00d3g right around the country, including in Wexford, Donegal, Mayo and Kerry, as well as at a national level have expressed continued concern that in many ways we are losing the battle against nicotine. As the Taoiseach rightly pointed out recently, a lot of these nicotine and tobacco companies are now using vaping as their way to create a new generation of addicts.  We should be rightly proud in this country of the leadership shown by the Taoiseach when he was Minister for health when he led the ban on smoking in the workplace over a quarter of a century ago. Recently the Minister of State, Deputy Jennifer Murnane O'Connor, has made some very positive moves in restricting flavoured vapes and the fancy packaging which are very deliberately targeted at young people. However, we need to go further.  As Members will know, similar legislation is being considered in New Zealand in the UK. I have yet to meet an older person who is a smoker who has ever said that they were glad that they took it up. They regret having started. I am not saying this will be the silver bullet that will solve all the problems that are there. There will still be the challenge with the black market and the challenge of big tobacco seeking every way to find to find loopholes. However, I believe it sends a very clear message that we want to encourage a smoke-free generation. We want to ensure that more people will not suffer from cancer, COPD, and heart and lung diseases. We want to keep people out of hospitals as a result of nicotine and tobacco.  The Bill is a relatively simple Bill. I am glad the Taoiseach has said that he will be considering matters in this regard. I hope that Ireland can once again provide leadership in this space and that the Government will take on board the proposals in this smoke-free generation Bill and that we would move to a situation whereby the sale or supply of tobacco, nicotine, nicotine-inhaling products or any nicotine product intended for consumption, including nicotine patches, will be prohibited so that anybody who is born on or after 1 January 2009 will be free from those products. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Is the Bill opposed? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Deputy Mary Butler)  No. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Since this is a Private Members' Bill, Second Stage must, under Standing Orders, be taken in Private Members' time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Malcolm Byrne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Malcolm-Byrne.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Malcolm Byrne  I move: \"That the Bill be taken in Private Members' time.\" "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Public Health (Tobacco) (Amendment) (Smokefree Generation) Bill 2026: First Stage"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_10","debateType":"debate","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/90","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/90\/dail\/1","houseCode":"dail","stage":"1","isBillStage":true,"showAs":"Dublin Local Authorities (Visitor Accommodation Levy) Bill 2026: First Stage (D\u00e1il)"}},"showAs":"Dublin Local Authorities (Visitor Accommodation Levy) Bill 2026: First Stage","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_10","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  I move:  That leave be granted to introduce a Bill entitled an Act to enable each Dublin local authority to adopt a scheme imposing a visitor accommodation levy on overnight stays in tourist accommodation within its functional area; to provide for the rate, collection, remittance and ring-fencing of revenue from such a levy; to provide for public consultation prior to the adoption of any such scheme; to provide for a register of accommodation providers, for the appointment of authorised officers and for compliance and enforcement; to provide for co-operation between Dublin local authorities and with digital accommodation platforms; to amend the Local Government Act 2001; and to provide for related matters.  In my time in this House, I have noticed two things. First, those of us who are not Ministers are often slower to identify how we raise revenue but perhaps quicker to identify how we might spend it and I include myself in that category. Second, in this House when we are trying to solve a local or regional issue, we often do so with a centralised or national solution. I believe this legislation challenges both of those conventions.  Today I am introducing the Dublin Local Authorities (Visitor Accommodation Levy) Bill 2026, which will provide a legal framework for Dublin's four local authorities to decide whether to introduce a levy on paid overnight accommodation in their local authority area. The legislation will not automatically introduce the levy; instead it will give local elected councils the power to decide whether such a levy should apply in their council area and what the rate should be set at. This is about giving local government the option that it simply does not have at present.  I should say I love my city and I love welcoming people to this city. Tourism is a really important part of our local economy but it also comes at a cost. In proposing this legislation, I am providing the four Dublin local authorities a sustainable way to invest in their tourism offering. They do so very successfully at the moment, supporting events that we see year in, year out, events like the St. Patrick's Festival, college football events, international sporting events, high-profile concerts and, importantly, local culture and historic festivals.  By maintaining and improving the public realm, tourism infrastructure and the services that make Dublin attractive, we can continue to make it a great place to visit. There is a strong case for allowing our local authorities to consider introducing a visitor levy. Importantly, this Bill would leave that decision with the elected councillors in each of the local authorities.  Under the Bill, a council would choose to introduce a levy whereby it could charge either a fixed amount per person per night or a percentage or a nightly rate accommodation charge. A maximum percentage rate would be set by the Minister through regulations, and other regulations would apply. Before any scheme would be adopted, a local authority would be required to publish its proposed scheme at least 60 days in advance and invite submissions from members of the public and relevant stakeholders. A report on that consultation process would have to be published before elected members voted on the proposal. Any money raised through the levy would be ring-fenced in a separate account and could not be used for general expenditure by a council. Instead, revenue could be used for tourism infrastructure and services, improvements to the public realm, culture, sporting or heritage events, sustainable tourism initiatives and other purposes connected with the impact of tourism.  If the councils choose to introduce a levy, Dubliners should be able to see clearly where that money goes and how it is improving the city and county. That is why transparency and ring-fencing of the funding are important parts of the Bill. The introduction of the Bill follows months of work by my party and other parties. In fact, this conversation has been taking place for many years. When I first served on the council, people like Mary Friel and Dermot Lacey of the Labour Party, Deputy Geoghegan, my coalition colleague, and Green Party, Sinn F\u00e9in and other councillors discussed it and the additional revenue streams that could be generated. I am of the view that there is a great deal of consensus around this issue.  We have moved from discussing the idea to developing the research to now putting legislation before the D\u00e1il. I want to see the Bill progress now through the Oireachtas in order that local authorities in Dublin will have the option to avail of it. There appears to be widespread support at Government level. I have heard comments from Ministers and the Taoiseach on the matter. In putting the legislation forward, I am challenging the Government to move now from support to implementation. I am assisting it with legislation that will allow it to prioritise the issue.  There are more than 17 sections in the Bill. Section 3 explains how the levy would be calculated and section 12 would permit local authorities in Dublin to share administrative services and enter into co-operation agreements with online booking platforms for easier collection. Many of the sections deal with the pragmatic and practical steps that would need to be taken to facilitate the implementation of the Bill.  I commend the Bill to the House. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Is the Bill opposed? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Deputy Mary Butler)  No. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Since this is a Private Members' Bill, Second Stage must, under Standing Orders, be taken in Private Members' time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul McAuliffe","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Paul-McAuliffe.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul McAuliffe  I move: \"That the Bill be taken in Private Members' time.\" "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Dublin Local Authorities (Visitor Accommodation Levy) Bill 2026: First Stage"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_11","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ministerial Rota for Parliamentary Questions: Motion","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_11","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Deputy Mary Butler)  I move:  That, notwithstanding anything in the Order of the D\u00e1il of 5th February, 2025, or in the Order of the D\u00e1il of 16th June, 2026, setting out the rota in which Questions to members of the Government are to be asked, Questions for oral answer following those next set down to the Minister for Culture, Communications and Sport shall be set down to Ministers in the following temporary sequence, without any change to the allocation of Priority Questions:  Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade  Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage  Minister for Justice, Home Affairs and Migration  Minister for Agriculture, Food, Fisheries and the Marine  Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science  Minister for Rural and Community Development and the Gaeltacht  Minister for Health  whereupon the sequence established by the Order of 5th February, 2025, shall continue with Questions to the T\u00e1naiste and Minister for Finance. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ministerial Rota for Parliamentary Questions: Motion"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_12","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ministerial Rota for Parliamentary Questions: Motion","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_12","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Deputy Mary Butler)  I move:  That, notwithstanding anything in the Order of the D\u00e1il of 5th February, 2025, or in the Order of the D\u00e1il of 16th June, 2026, setting out the rota in which Questions to members of the Government are to be asked, Questions for oral answer following those next set down to the Minister for Transport shall be set down to Ministers in the following temporary sequence, without any change to the allocation of Priority Questions:  T\u00e1naiste and Minister for Finance  Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade  Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage  Minister for Justice, Home Affairs and Migration  Minister for Agriculture, Food, Fisheries and the Marine  Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science  Minister for Rural and Community Development and the Gaeltacht  Minister for Health  Minister for Culture, Communications and Sport  whereupon the sequence established by the Order of 5th February, 2025, shall continue with Questions to the Minister for Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ministerial Rota for Parliamentary Questions: Motion"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_13","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Fifteenth Report of the Standing Committee of Selection: Motion","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_13","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Deputy Mary Butler)  I move:  That D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann, pursuant to Standing Order 33, and with effect from 23rd September, 2026, approves the Fifteenth Report of the Standing Committee of Selection, copies of which were laid before D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann on 18th September, 2026. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Fifteenth Report of the Standing Committee of Selection: Motion"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_14","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna - Questions","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_14","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  Questions to the Taoiseach are being taken by the Government Chief Whip. The Deputy who tabled the question is not present. We are slightly ahead of time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Deputy Mary Butler)  If the Deputy is not present, there is nobody to ask the question. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  That is correct. There is nothing we can do in that regard. I thank the Chief Whip. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mary Butler","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Mary-Butler.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mary Butler  I thank the Ceann Comhairle. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna - Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_15","debateType":"debate","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/84","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/84\/dail\/2","houseCode":"dail","stage":"2","isBillStage":true,"showAs":"Social Welfare, Civil Registration and Charities (Amendment) Bill 2026: Second Stage (D\u00e1il)"}},"showAs":"Social Welfare, Civil Registration and Charities (Amendment) Bill 2026: Second Stage","counts":{"speechCount":9,"speakerCount":8},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_15","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin Hayes","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cormac Devlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cormac-Devlin.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cormac-Devlin.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Paul O'Shea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Social Protection (Deputy Dara Calleary)  Tairgim: \u201cGo l\u00e9ifear an Bille an Dara hUair anois.\"  I move: \"That the Bill be now read a Second Time.\"  I am pleased to have the opportunity to introduce the Social Welfare, Civil Registration and Charities (Amendment) Bill 2026 go dt\u00ed an D\u00e1il. The Bill contains measures to amend the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005, the Civil Registration Act 2004 and the Charities Act 2009. This reflects the wide range of areas under the remit of the Departments of Social Protection and Rural and Community Development and the Gaeltacht. I thank all the civil servants involved in the preparation of the Bill.  On the social welfare side, a key provision in the Bill is to provide the legislative basis for public service cardholders to be able to use their cards, of their own volition and on a purely voluntary basis, as a form of identity. Currently, only public sector bodies specified in law can request and accept the public services card as a form of identity. If any other institution does so, for example, a bank, credit union or utility company, it is guilty of an offence. The amendment provided in the Bill will facilitate people to offer their public services card as a form of identity if they wish to do so. It will not enable institutions to request it, but they will no longer be guilty of an offence if they accept it as proof of identity.  The Bill also provides the legislative basis for a person to be able to request that their date of birth be inscribed on their public services card. Again, this will only be included if the cardholder requests it. The intention is to facilitate people who may wish to use their card as a form of age verification. The Bill also provides for a range of amendments to improve the functioning of the social welfare appeals office and a number of technical amendments to keep the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005 up do date as part of an ongoing programme of legislative modernisation.  On the civil registration side, there are two main types of provisions included in the Bill. One set will make improvements to the functioning of the General Register Office. I will outline the specific amendments when I go through the Bill section by section. The second set of amendments includes a range of proposals from my colleague the Minister for Children, Disability and Equality. While the Civil Registration Act 2004 falls under my remit, the Minister for Children, Disability and Equality has responsibility for birth information and tracing and for the State\u2019s response to illegal birth registrations.  The Birth Information and Tracing Act 2022 contains a range of measures to address issues arising for people affected by illegal birth registration, as well as amendments to the Civil Registration Act 2004. In the course of engagements with officials in the Department of Children, Disability, and Equality, persons affected by illegal birth registrations requested improvements to the terminology used. The Department of Children, Disability and Equality has worked closely with officials from my Department and the special advocate for survivors to develop the amendments, including changing the title of the register, created by Part 9 of the Birth Information and Tracing Act 2022, from the \"Register under Part 3B\u201d to the \u201cRegister of Lived Identity\u201d, and changing the term used to \"withdrawal\" of an entry in the register of births rather than \"cancellation\".  In order to ensure, as far as possible, that all affected people\u2019s views were heard and taken into account, the proposed changes were the subject of a public consultation which ran from 13 March to 10 April of this year. Some 166 responses were received from affected persons, others who were adopted or boarded out and their families and friends. There was overwhelming support for the proposed changes. The Bill also amends access to the register of lived identity to make it more open, where an affected person so wishes. Importantly, these proposed amendments will not affect the rights of people who wish for their entry to remain private.  The third Act amended by this Bill is the Charities Act of 2009. Members of the Charity Appeals Tribunal provide an essential service to the charities sector in Ireland. I thank the chairman and members of the tribunal for their ongoing expertise, commitment and careful consideration of each case that comes before them. The amendments to the Act are wholly technical and operational in nature. However, they are essential in supporting the ongoing efficient operation of the tribunal and ensuring that it can deliver on the statutory requirements relating to it.  Members will be aware that the general scheme of the Bill was the subject of pre-legislative scrutiny in April and May this year. I thank the Chair, Deputy John Paul O'Shea, and all members of the committee for their work in this process. I welcome the support of the committee in progressing the amendments to the Civil Registration Act and the Charities Act. The joint committee's pre-legislative report contained a number of recommendations about the digitalisation of services. It wanted to make sure that offline application options remain possible, that digital systems are accessible and inclusive, that the impact on take-up is monitored and that there is engagement with the representative groups. I could not agree more. I am strongly committed to this. My Department and its officials will deliver.  My Department's strategy is to encourage the take-up of online services on a digital-by-desire basis, rather than to require or compel customers to use the online options. In designing and in delivering digital services, accessibility is always a key focus in the Department, with accessibility testing completed on all services being developed on our digital platforms before they go live. Customers are routinely advised of the various channels available to access Department services, enabling them to choose the option that is most appropriate to their circumstances. Officials regularly engage with advocacy groups, representative organisations and customers to inform continuous service improvement across all of our delivery channels.  The report also made a number of recommendations about the processing of personal data. I put on record that the processing of personal data, including very sensitive personal data, is subject to clearly specified safeguards under the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005, as amended. It is also done in accordance with GDPR requirements. My Department actively implements its range of oversight arrangements for all of its processing of personal data. I have taken particular note of the recommendations relating to informing individuals that the use of a public services card is voluntary, either by legislation or by a public awareness campaign. I support the underlying objective of these recommendations. I have asked officials to examine them further in advance of Committee Stage.  I will go through the Bill section by section. The Bill contains 26 sections in four Parts. In Part 1, sections 1 and 2 contain standard provisions of the Short Title, construction, collective citation, definitions and commencement. Section 3 provides for the repeal of section 14 of the Civil Registration (Electronic Registration) Act 2024. This is a consequential amendment. This section shall come into effect following the commencement of section 21 of this Bill.  Part 2 amends the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005. Section 4 provides for the repeal of pre-retirement allowance and removes references to the scheme in the principal Act. This scheme has been closed to new applicants since 2007. There are no customers in receipt of this payment. Section 5 is part of the legislation modernisation programme. It provides for an update of references to tax regulations in the principal Act. Section 6 provides for the abolition of the provision whereby a person may be disqualified from receipt of jobseeker's benefit for a certain period and in certain circumstances when he or she receives a redundancy payment. This provision is no longer a requirement since the introduction of a pay-related jobseeker's benefit scheme. Section 7 provides for a number of technical amendments to the name of schemes consequent to the Social Welfare (Bereaved Partner's Pension and Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2025.  Section 8 provides for amendments to section 263 to allow a public services cardholder, at his or her request, to inscribe his or her date of birth on the public services card to enable the public services card to be used as a means of verifying age. The cardholder may also request the removal of the date of birth from the public services card. In addition, it allows the cardholder to offer the public services card at his or her own discretion as a form of identity for a purpose that is not a transaction with a specified body, that is not a public sector body that is specified in Schedule 5 of the Act. It clarifies that the public services card remains the property of the Minister for Social Protection at all times, and that the card is non-transferable. Section 9 amends section 300A of the principal Act, which provides the statutory basis for deciding officers to seek a medical assessor's opinion in determining entitlement to certain benefits. This amendment further provides that appeals officers and the chief appeal officer may seek the opinion of a medical assessor when deciding questions related to the relevant statutory duties.  Section 10 provides that the chief appeals officer may remit a decision back to an appeals officer for his or her consideration in circumstances where remittal will resolve the matter faster overall. Section 11 provides for the allowance of an appeal to the High Court on a point of law from any decision of the chief appeals officer, whether revised or unrevised.  Part 3 amends the Civil Registration Act 2004. Section 12 provides for the definitions used in Part 3. Sections 13, 16, 18 and 22 substitute \"register\" or \"register under 3B\" with \"register of lived identity\" in various sections. Section 14 provides that the Child and Family Agency, Tusla, can register the birth of a child with the father's details on foot of a court order, naming him as the father of the child. Section 15 provides for the re-registration of a birth, to correct the name of a father where the Child and Family Agency, Tusla, is the qualified informant and where that agency has been granted a court order, naming the father of a child under section 35 of the Status of Children Act 1987. Section 17 provides for the substitution of section 30H, \"Correction, cancellation or registration of entries in register of births\", with a new section, \"Error in relevant entry\". Section 19 amends section 30J, which provides that an tArd-Chl\u00e1raitheoir maintains an index to the register of lived identity and sets out who may apply for a search of the register and the index. This amendment allows a person who has been nominated by the affected person or a member of the public to make an application to an tArd-Chl\u00e1raitheoir where the person affected by the illegal birth registration gives his or her permission in writing.  Section 20 provides for the public inspection of information on the index linking the register of births and the register of lived identity where the affected person to whom the information pertains has given his or her consent to an tArd-Chl\u00e1raitheoir to make his or her entry publicly available. Section 21 provides that a medical practitioner who attended to a deceased person outside of a hospital or other institution may authorise a person to perform the medical practitioner's duty to notify the particulars of a death to an tArd-Chl\u00e1raitheoir. Section 23 allows an tArd-Chl\u00e1raitheoir to correct a factual or clerical error in an online registration where that error has been notified to an tArd-Chl\u00e1raitheoir by any person, including the staff of an tArd-Chl\u00e1raitheoir.  Section 24 updates the provisions for vital statistics in section 73 of the Civil Registration Act 2004 to align with the current practices on the compilation, abstraction and publication of vital statistics, which is now primarily conducted by the Central Statistics Office. However, I bring to the attention of Deputies that following further consultation with the Central Statistics Office, I am of a view that a more extensive review of the vital statistics provisions in the Civil Registration Act 2004 and its relationship with provisions in the Statistics Act 1993 would put the processing of vital statistics on a more robust legal footing. For that reason, I intend to introduce a Committee Stage amendment to remove section 24 from the Bill to allow sufficient time for my officials to liaise with the General Register Office, the Central Statistics Office and the Office of the Attorney General on this matter. Section 25 amends the particulars required when registering a birth or stillbirth so that signatures are only required where applicable, given the option of online registration.  Part 4 of this Bill amends the Charities Act 2009. Section 26 amends section 33 of the 2009 Act with revised definitions for the relevant Minister, the relevant body and the relevant regulator.  In addition, it amends section 77 of the 2009 Act, setting the quorum of the Charity Appeals Tribunal at three members, including the chairperson. These amendments also provide for the nomination of a deputy chairperson to chair a hearing of a tribunal in the absence of the appointed chairperson. Finally, it provides that witnesses before the tribunal will have an immunity from disclosing information or providing evidence about a certain subject.  This is mainly a technical Bill. I thank the Deputies who were involved in pre-legislative scrutiny. I commend the Bill to the House. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Louise O'Reilly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Louise-O'Reilly.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Louise O'Reilly  The Minister will know my views on this because we have had a discussion about it. For the purpose of putting them on the record, however, I cannot emphasise how foolish I believe it will be to allow this Bill to pass in its current form, owing to the provisions specifically in section 8, which seek to expand further the functions of the public services card, PSC. This is being done at a time when that very card and the legal underpinning are being called into question in court. The Minister will know that his colleague, the former Minister, Regina Doherty, famously said in 2018 that the PSC was \"mandatory\" but \"not compulsory\". We have been asking ourselves at the committee - the Minister might not say in this House, but he might have scratched his head and asked - what, in the name of God, does that actually mean? In her confused statement, I believe she gave away what the Government's intentions are, which is to keep expanding this card and its use and to make it into a de facto national ID card without the proper security features that any such card should have.  Though the Government has consistently tried to row back on the former Minister, Regina Doherty's statements, insisting that the card is voluntary in practice, it risks becoming effectively mandatory because when a single ID card becomes widely accepted across the public and private sectors, people will feel a pressure to use it. This is a fact and there are multiple international examples of this. I scratch my head about this all the time. In the same breath as the Minister says that it is voluntary, I also know that the free travel pass cannot be accessed without it. That is not voluntary. A person can volunteer to not have the free travel pass. That is not fair. Most of these people have worked all their lives. People look forward to getting the free travel pass. Of course they do. Now they have to have the PSC. That is not fair nor voluntary. The only thing a person can volunteer to do is not get the travel pass to which they are entitled.  I am concerned, as are others, that this centralised use could also weaken the security of the PSC. The Government has consistently dismissed the concerns in its response to the Irish Council for Civil Liberties, ICCL, Digital Rights Ireland and my own contribution during pre-legislative scrutiny. National ID cards are tough and difficult to make. They should be, and for a reason. Biometric data is ever-more sensitive in our changing world and the absolute bare minimum provisions needed, I believe, are at least that the card be protected by an up-to-date, state-of-the-art security feature, so that a person may use a virtual PPSN rather than revealing their PPSN; that the public service identity dataset is not used in any way, shape or form for biometric matching; and that the PSC must allow cryptographic authentication. This is not the case with this card as it stands. I am baffled as to what the rush is. A legal case is under way. The Minister is well aware of that. It is entirely possible to wait for the outcome of that. If the Minister is so set on putting this card into use, he should wait until it has proper legislative underpinning. I believe the current underpinning is quite shaky. MyGovID and SAFE Registration still do not have a proper statutory basis.  I am conscious that there is a lot more in this legislation than just the public services card but it is the one that took up some time when we considered the Bill in the committee. It is the one around which I have most concerns. As the Minister has said, the rest of the Bill is technical in nature. This is really important. People in Digital Rights Ireland and the ICCL, serious people who have given over time to study this, are sounding alarm bells. The Government is still parroting that mortifying line from the former Minister that it is mandatory but not compulsory. It is compulsory if a person wants to have the free travel pass. It is becoming more and more embedded. We are heading down a road without proper discussion and consultation. We are heading in the direction of a national ID card and I do not believe that this is what people want. In the absence of a discussion, it is said of the public services card that a person might like it but they do not have to have it. The Government will then add little bits to it until, eventually, we find ourselves in a situation where people cannot access the travel pass or public services without it. It is becoming increasingly more difficult. The Minister said in his opening remarks that he wants to make sure that offline application options remain possible, and that the digital systems are accessible and inclusive. They have to be accessible and inclusive to people who have legitimate concerns in relation to the storing of their biometric and other data. They are not. For as long as they are not, we have no option but to oppose this.  The Minister said that the Department's strategy is to encourage the take-up of online services on a digital-by-desire basis but that is not the case with at least one aspect. We know that this is going to grow. He told us that he took particular note of the recommendations relating to informing individuals that the use of the PSC is voluntary, either by legislation or by a public awareness campaign, and that he supports the underlying objective of the recommendations and that he has asked his officials to examine them further. We will have this discussion on Committee Stage and I look forward to it. I hope the Minister looks forward to receiving the amendments that I will be putting down and having that engagement, because it is important. We would be foolish, as would the Minister, to stand in this Chamber and pretend that there are not legitimate concerns. People are concerned. They are concerned about the processing of their data, about giving over information without necessarily knowing that the information is needed and that the information will be handled correctly. There is an ongoing legal case, which I will not refer to. In that atmosphere and given that fact, it is incumbent on us to go slowly on this, to have that consultation and to listen to those experts. There was no meaningful consultation, no quantifiable way of establishing whether or not people actually want this card. I note that representatives from the Department say that people want the card but it is not asking if people want the card. They are applying for it in many instances because they do not have a choice but that is not the same thing as saying that they want the card.  I look forward to engaging with this legislation on Committee Stage. I look forward to debating amendments that will be brought forward by myself and others. I assure the Minister of our co-operation in getting business done as quickly as we possibly can but he can also be on notice that we will not rush to a timetable that may or may not suit other people. We will be putting those concerns to the fore. People value their data. More and more, people are talking about concerns in relation to their own data protection and GDPR. This legislation does not do anything to allay the cautions that are necessary in relation to those concerns. For that reason, we will be putting forward amendments. In his remarks, the Minister has signalled a willingness to bring amendments on Committee Stage for certain aspects. I ask him to have a look at the points made by the ICCL and Digital Rights Ireland, to take them on board and to bring forward consequent amendments that will reflect the concerns that are out there. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","memberCode":"Mark-Ward.D.2019-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mark Ward  The majority of the provisions in this Bill are procedural, and, as Deputy O'Reilly said already, we will not oppose them. However, section 8 of this Bill must be removed. It must be made explicitly clear that a person should have access to any service available without using a public services card other than the Department of Social Protection. This must reflect the current legal position arising from the agreement between the Data Protection Commission and the Department of Social Protection. If enacted, section 8 would lead to the public services card becoming a de facto general-purpose ID card. The Government is making the public services card mandatory by stealth. I will give the Minister a personal example. My driver's licence was up for renewal. I applied to have it renewed but I could not without a public services card because I had changed address recently.  I had not got a public services card, I never had a need for a public services card and I never had any interest in obtaining one but because you cannot renew your licence or learner permit online without a public services card, and because I needed a change of address, I had no choice but to apply for a public services card. I have one in my wallet as we speak. There was no other way to resolve this issue without my getting a public services card, so in this instance it was mandatory. As I said, the only voluntary part of this was for me to not drive any more. I need a licence. There are other cases, as has been raised already. If you are over 65 years of age, you cannot access free travel without a public services card. The Minister said in his opening remarks that the use of the public services card was voluntary but that is not voluntary to my mind. If over-65s want to access free travel, they have to have public services cards, and I just spoke about how I needed it to renew my driver licence. For me, that was mandatory.  Turning to section 10, I tabled a number of questions to the Minister for oral answer. They were not chosen, so I will bring them up here instead, as they are loosely related to section 10, which relates to the Chief Appeals Officer. I hope that will lead to quicker decisions being made. That needs to be done.  I want to raise the issue of appeals when things fall through the cracks. The Department of Social Protection is using GoFundMe-type fundraisers to deny people exceptional needs payments. I had a case recently when a single mother passed away, leaving a young family. Most of them are under the age of 18 and it will mostly be left to the oldest daughter to take over their guardianship. The community has rallied around this young family in these tragic circumstances, which is welcome, and it did a GoFundMe to deal with costs that might occur down the line. It raised a moderate amount, not a huge amount. One of the children, who at the time was a young adult, applied for an exceptional needs payment to cover funeral expenses but that was denied because of the GoFundMe. The applicant was never asked to disclose this, which leads me to believe that somewhere in the Department there is someone who, when they see a tragic death in a community, goes online to look to see if a GoFundMe was set up. That is immoral to me and does not sit right. Furthermore, when someone applies for an exceptional needs payment, they are asked to disclose the means they have at the moment. They are not asked to disclose any future means they may have. At the time of the application, the family had not received any benefit from the GoFundMe - there is not even any guarantee this family will receive the money from it - yet it was assessed on it anyway. I submitted parliamentary questions to the Minister on this recently to see how widespread the practice was because I do not believe it is an isolated incident.  Another issue related to appeals that is coming up with us regularly has to do with how fuel allowance is awarded. If you are on an invalidity pension and you are able to move onto a CE scheme \u2013 and it is welcome when someone is looking to come off invalidity payments and come back to the workspace \u2013 you are not allowed to apply for fuel allowance. I am asking that this be examined. Also, if an adult is working and still living at home with their parents, the parents are not allowed to apply for the fuel allowance. I have raised how this scenario of working adults living at home is happening more often because of the housing crisis and I would like the Minister to look at it.  I wish to raise a final matter that I have raised before. I have noticed a pattern with people coming to me with the same problem around the domiciliary carers allowance. A very high percentage of applicants seem to be turned down on their first application only to get it on appeal. Figures I received last year told me that 33% of all first-time applicants for the domiciliary care allowance were refused. Fifty percent of those appealed and of the 2,146 appeals, over 1,300 were successful. On that evidence, I would recommend to any parent out there who was denied domiciliary carers allowance to appeal it because on the evidence I have from the Minister\u2019s Department, they are likely to win. As one parent said to me, you would think the Government just wants people to go away after the first application is denied. To be honest, looking at these figures, it is hard not to agree with that sentiment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa  As I follow my two colleagues, the Minister will have got the idea that we have a particular problem with section 8, and why would we not? Anyone who had needed State services in the last while knows that, in order to access them, particularly online, a public services card is required. We need to just knock the idea that it is voluntary on its head straight away. We know there are huge issues. For want of a better term, how the State came upon something like 70% of the biometric information and data was illegal. I would like that point answered.  There is a real issue. Deputy Ward spoke about his driver licence. I can speak about my own young fellow and his permit. He is not driving at the moment, which can be a nuisance to me. Some of that delay is down to him but there is also the fact that there was a requirement for a public services card. There has to be a greater element of truth around the fact that this is becoming a requirement, an almost requirement or something where the State has made things so hard that it may as well be a requirement for State services. With many of the people who come into our constituency offices, we tell them that is the easiest way to do it. If what the Department is looking for is a State or national ID, then it should be clear about that.  There is an issue about the information and how it is contained. Deputy O\u2019Reilly spoke about how we had no level of security over what is required. We have all spoken about our own information and the data analytics being carried out by firms that are interested in making money. There is a better knowledge of GDPR and data privacy. When the State has this information, we need to ensure that it has been obtained legally, is operated correctly and is protected with a sufficient level of security, which I do not think is currently the case.  Similar to the point raised by Deputy Ward, I have a very specific ask around additional needs payments. I have dealt with an issue for a number of constituents, some who have got over the line and others who have not, who have had boilers that went kaput and they did not have the money or time to undergo a full Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI, warmer homes retrofit or whatever. Previously, they would have been able to apply for housing for older people supports from the local authority but now the only thing you can get if you want an oil or gas boiler is a refurbished boiler. I challenge anyone to go out and try to find one of those. I would say it would be very difficult. I would even guess it was impossible. The service was provided in particular for those who were older and who would not have had the money to pay for this or to do the full retrofit required. We all know the best thing that can be done for a lot of older houses is to ensure they are proofed from the point of view of decent windows, doors and insulation. It does not always make great sense to introduce things like air-to-water pumps or renewable forms of energy. We know the necessity of ensuring that the house is airtight. My office is wasting time making multiple applications that fail just so people can look to apply for an additional needs payment.  I have a parliamentary question in to the Minister. I also have a parliamentary question in to the Minister for housing on the reverse. It is an issue that needs to be addressed. We get that in a perfect scenario we would be dealing with brand-new builds that are airtight and looking at air-to-air-type heating systems that work perfectly in those sets of circumstances, although that is very difficult to do from a retrofit point of view. The fact is that a huge number of people do not have the resources to outlay that money, and at this point in time a resource that was available to them previously is not available, whether that is through an additional needs payment or, as I said, through some of the supports that were available through the local authority. Between the Minister, Deputy Calleary, and the Minister for housing, it is something that needs to be addressed. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoin Hayes","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoin-Hayes.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoin Hayes  I thank the Minister and his officials for bringing forward this Bill, much of which contains, as he said, technical and administrative rationalisations. That is the unseen and unglamorous work in legislation and Departments but it is important, and I sincerely thank the officials for doing it. Improvements to the operations of the Charities Regulator are very welcome to ensure public confidence in the efficiency and effectiveness of its governance. Charities do incredible work across this State in aiding our most vulnerable, and proper administration, enabled by legislation and the regulator, is critical to proper oversight. I also welcome the adjustments to the Civil Registration Act to make it more inclusive for the modern era. It is not very often that we do this continuously in Government Departments, and when it does happen it should be applauded. Progress sometimes means reform, and this is a very good example of it. I also thank the Minister and his officials for the meaningful engagement with those adopted or boarded out. I hope that is progress that continues hereafter. Lastly, I acknowledge the changes to the eligibility requirements for jobseeker's benefit to include those who have received redundancy payments. Losses of income and livelihoods should not be compounded by a State that does not do all it can to help people in that moment. The change here to include people who have recently been made redundant is very welcome, especially in the context of cascading layoffs in many companies in my constituency.  I encourage the Minister, however, to explore how people who are in self-employment and who may have catastrophic collapses in their income are supported. Many contractors in these companies in my constituency employ people who are dependent on occasional gig-like work, who earn on average much less than PAYE workers do and who need to be similarly supported so they are not put into incredible precarity. There is work to be done there, and if the principle of this change in the Bill is to support people who have lost their income regardless of redundancy payments or other means, that should be a universal principle applied equally.  There is, however, a core issue in this Bill that featured prominently in the pre-legislative scrutiny at committee, which I will now turn to, namely section 8 of the Bill, which seeks to amend legislation for an operation of the public services card. I want to be very clear in acknowledging the good parts of the public services card. It is a free card, unlike other forms of identification, like a driver's licence or a passport. That is of particular importance to people in low-income populations. I support the provisions of the Bill in ensuring that individuals are in control of who or what entity they give their public services card information to and can do so only with the cardholder's consent. That is a good principle. The existing use of the public services card in engagement with public services is primarily for social protection payments. Public use has increased drastically since its introduction, and many entities, like credit unions and NGOs, have voiced support for more widespread allowance of the use of the card to facilitate ordinary transactions, particularly for populations without a driver's licence or a passport.  There is no denying, however, that the public services card as an identity card has had a controversial past in this Chamber and outside of it since its introduction as a pilot by then Labour Minister Joan Burton in 2011. Today, 15 years later, there are 3.25 million cards in circulation, and 4.5 million in the population are SAFE registered, or have registered their information with the data system governing the card, including supplying biometric data that can be used by facial recognition software. Core to the criticism of the public services card in the past, including by the Data Protection Commission and the Comptroller and Auditor General, is that there has been no primary legislation, business case or meaningful public debate on the issue of a broader digital identity infrastructure for citizens of this State. In effect, the card has introduced a State identity infrastructure through the back door. In 2012 the Department started using the card's biometric facial data with facial recognition technology, and in 2025 the Data Protection Commissioner found that this use was \"unlawful\" and levied a fine of \u20ac550,000 against the Department of Social Protection, a decision later appealed by the Department and currently before the courts. It is notable that the use of facial recognition technology on this data means that the Department and, by extension, others, including the Garda, can facially detect up to 70% of the population. This leaves some significant cause for concern. Notably, the DPC has said in committee that if it wins the case, it may use its full enforcement powers against the Department, namely:  Where we make a finding of unlawful processing of personal data, we can require the processing to cease, ban the processing from recommencing and require the data to be deleted. If our decision in this case is upheld, what we will be looking for is for those types of corrective measures to be implemented ...  This would effectively mean that all facial images may have to be purged from the Department's databases and the practice of collecting them and using them in facial recognition by the Department would have to halt. To date, no High Court or Supreme Court judgment has determined whether the PSC scheme is lawful or unlawful.  The governance, legislative basis and operations of the data associated with citizens through the PSC have been challenged repeatedly by other NGOs, including the ICCL, UCD's centre for digital policy and other concerned citizens. Some have gone so far as to call it \"unlawful\". The central controversy surrounding the card in Ireland historically has been its use, or potential use, as an identity card without being called one, or such use being legislated for, or this being the subject of sufficient public debate about the need, business case, purpose or risks associated with such use. I am reminded here, as were other speakers, of the radio interview in which then Fine Gael Minister Regina Doherty declared it was \"mandatory\" but \"not compulsory\". Today many social protection services and, reportedly, many other public services are in effect not easily accessible without a public services card. One witness at committee, Dr. Elizabeth Farries of the UCD centre for digital policy, said it was \"becoming effectively mandatory\". Notwithstanding the concerns about the PSC and identity infrastructure as they currently exist, much of my core concern during our pre-legislative scrutiny focused on how the scheme may be applied in the future. As Dr. Ferries described, the PSC enables a \"broad interoperable identity infrastructure in which data sets become linkable, profiling becomes easier and information collection for one purpose migrates into others\". On the question of function creep, or the data that would be used for things that it was not originally intended to be used for, there is precedent, as was reported to the committee. Given recent pronouncements by the Minister for culture and the President of the European Commission with regard to digital ID and integration of such IDs to authorise access to social media, there is some cause for concern that such identity infrastructure would extend use into the digital sphere and, in particular, social media. Dr. T.J. McIntyre of the ICCL said at committee that he suspected the effort from the Department of Social Protection and the Department of public expenditure and reform:  ... was to become an all-in-one public identification database, ... all of which is viewable by everybody and every government department. ... The problem is that, as things stand, the underlying database of the public services card ... is essentially a 360 degree view of the individual which contains all this information and does not have these more granular access controls in place regarding who can see what and which, if it is expanded for identity verification or age verification in other contexts, will unnecessarily leak information in those other contacts as well. There are fraud risks associated with giving out too much of this data.  If the future of the SAFE data, or PSC data, in particular facial recognition data, is the starting point of a more comprehensive database of activity of people on this island, the further contention is that this could lead to a kind of Big Brother or surveillance state infrastructure, including the use of such technology to profile the population. This was the most significant warning from witnesses - that the use of this data and the associated technologies could underpin a surveillance architecture through facial recognition. Dr. Ferries highlighted this repeatedly as a future risk. There are, she said, risks in surveillance associated with \"proportionality, democratic oversight, discrimination risks and the protection of fundamental rights showing up time and again\".  It is clear that there should have been a more comprehensive national debate on the question of national identity infrastructure. Primary legislation should have been moved, and the question of the primary uses of such infrastructure, the business case for its costs, the benefits, advantages or disadvantages and the oversight of such a system should have been part of that debate. We have still not had that. However, I acknowledge the public desire that the State facilitate the use of public services through more modern technologies. Many would argue that the State needs to modernise even more, and that public service cards yield usability benefits to the general public.  Since independence the Republic has had no major crisis of civil liberties. We live in a liberal society where privacy is respected in virtually all aspects of the law. Ireland also enjoys a fairly high level of trust among the public and the organs of the State. There is an expectation that they will interact with them in a fair way. This is internationally unusual. There are countless examples of other countries' police or military infrastructure being used against the populace in a systematic way. This has led, in other jurisdictions, to an inherent distrust of the state holding data on the person, restrictions on the use of that data and stronger legal and constitutional protections for privacy, confidentiality and proper oversight and governance. In the age of information technology, the ability of any state to use personal information for nefarious purposes has extended. The linking of data sets has become a much easier proposition than it was in the past, leading to a higher functionality for state systems in a variety of use cases. In the case of domestic surveillance of the population, new frontiers have opened and been pursued by governments internationally. That must be opposed and condemned, and I join anyone in that mission.  Notwithstanding Ireland's unique peaceful and lawful experience in these areas, there is always a risk that a future government or administration could use the infrastructure of the State to encroach on civil liberties, to target minority populations, for instance, or suppress political dissent. Furthermore, should the data be accessed by unscrupulous actors like hackers, compromised individuals within State bodies or foreign state actors, especially in the age of supercharged invasive AI, individuals could be targeted using the information held by the State without proper protection. There is a real risk that the infrastructure we build today could be misused.  From the perspective of the Oireachtas it is difficult to make an assessment of the proper governance of this data, or its future uses without more information on how the Department is using it, so I sought to do just that. I recently corresponded with the Minister for Social Protection on issues that have been raised in pre-legislative scrutiny, namely the uses, governance and future plans for public services card infrastructure. The information he provided was helpful and I sincerely thank him and his officials for being transparent, clear and comprehensive on these matters. I have some follow-up questions that I will return to him in due course. One part of the correspondence did cause me some concern, however. Under section 41(b) of the Data Protection Act 2018, the Department of Social Protection can supply any public services card data to An Garda if deemed, \"necessary and proportionate for the purposes [of] (a) of preventing a threat to national security, defence or public security [or] (b) of preventing, detecting, investigating or prosecuting criminal offences.\" That does create a wide applicability without oversight, judicial or otherwise, and may be used as a pretext for law enforcement powers to use the data for means beyond what we might reasonably expect for social protection purposes. International experience would suggest this can be misused. While I have every faith, as I believe most people in this country do, that An Garda acts with probity in its role, that unfortunately may not always be the case in the future.  In summary, I welcome most of the provisions in this Bill. I still have some outstanding concerns on the identity infrastructure in Ireland, in particular how it might be misused in the future. I encourage the Minister to engage with the Data Protection Commissioner and other concerned citizens on their concerns about civil liberties and privacy, and on how we build a modern state that works for all of us and protects us all. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cormac Devlin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cormac-Devlin.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cormac-Devlin.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cormac Devlin  I welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Social Welfare, Civil Registration and Charities (Amendment) Bill 2026. While the Bill is largely technical in nature, it really matters to the people it impacts. The changes to the civil registration are straightforward and welcome. Tusla will be able to re-register a father's details for a child in its care on foot of a court declaration or order. The notification of deaths is modernised so a hospital or doctor can authorise another person to notify the General Register Office within five working days. These are sensible and practical reforms, and I support them. The most important changes in this part of the Bill are for people whose births were illegally registered. For decades babies were placed with couples and registered as if they had been born to them. There was no adoption order. There was no record they could find. For many, there was no knowledge at all. In 2018, Tusla identified 126 illegal registrations in the records of St. Patrick\u2019s Guild, covering the years 1946 to 1969. That number has since risen to 151 confirmed cases. The Birth Information and Tracing Act 2022 gave those affected the right to an accurate birth registration and legal recognition of the identity they have lived. That was real progress, and I acknowledge the work of successive Ministers, Tusla and the General Register Office in getting there.  This Bill builds on that. Under the current law an incorrect entry on the register of births is cancelled. For people who have lived their whole lives under the name, that word was deeply hurtful to them and to their families. It suggested that their identity had simply been struck out. This Bill removes that, and I welcome it. Instead, the entry will be noted, kept on the record, but no longer issued as a certificate. A certificate from the new registration of lived identity will serve wherever a birth certificate is required. The Bill also lets people choose who can see their record, namely family members, or the public if they wish. That is their direction and decision, and it is right that the law now respects it. I welcome that the Department consulted survivors on these changes earlier in the year. That should be standard and not the exception. It would be helpful if survivor groups were consulted at every stage of this legislation, and I hope Committee Stage will assist in that regard.  There is one gap I ask the Minister to look at. Only the affected person can nominate someone or open their record. Where that person has passed away, their children and grandchildren have no way to make that choice. A provision allowing a personal representative or next of kin to exercise it would be a reasonable amendment, and a helpful one. I ask the Minister to consider it for Committee Stage. Survivors and their families want to see the outstanding issues resolved. The youngest of those in the St. Patrick\u2019s Guild records are now in their 50s and the eldest are approaching 80 and time is ticking. I have raised the case of Susan Kiernan in this House before. Sadly, Susan has passed away. I know the Minister is aware of the case, as are many who have been in his position. These provisions also need a commencement order, and I urge the Minister to make it as soon as possible when the Bill is enacted.  I turn to the social protection appeals. The Bill sets a two-year window for requesting a review of a decision by an appeals officer or the chief appeals officer. That is sensible and it is in line with the approach to reviews elsewhere in the system. This Bill also gives the chief appeals officer a new power to annul a flawed decision and send it back to an appeals officer for fresh consideration. However, the bigger issue for most people is how long an appeal itself takes in the first place. I will return to that, and I know the Minister is prioritising it.  I turn to the public services card. Its establishment was messy. As an old Irish saying goes, \"If I were going there, I would not start from here.\" I have always said that the Government should have introduced comprehensive and clear legislation at the outset. That said, I welcome the provisions allowing the card to be used as proof of identity, and as proof of age where the holder asks for their date of birth to be added. Passports and driving licences cost money and many young people have neither. This will help them to prove who they are, to open a bank account and join a credit union, etc. It must remain the cardholder\u2019s choice, and the Bill keeps it an offence for anyone outside the public services to demand it.  A card is only useful if you can get one, however. Anyone without a current Irish passport cannot register through the MyGovID app, so they need an appointment in person. The most common public services card issue raised with me in my office is simply getting that appointment. The Minister will know that I have raised this on many occasions and in parliamentary questions. A proper online booking system available at every public services centre is necessary. My constituents in D\u00fan Laoghaire and those around the country should be able to book a slot online, at a time that suits them, as they already can for driver\u2019s licences. I would welcome progress on this.  Equally, I would welcome progress on the time taken to process appeals. Behind every average is a person waiting. I have constituents who have waited significant periods for a final answer with no income in the meantime. Many of those appealing are people with disabilities, carers and families on low incomes. For them, every week of delay costs money that they do not have. Better first decisions would mean fewer appeals. Clearer information on how long an appeal would take would ease a great deal of worry. The appeals office should have the resources in it to clear the caseload.  Finally, as I have the Minister here and budget 2027 is approaching, I would like to highlight a number of points. It is clear households are going to face a very challenging winter. The war in the Gulf has doubled wholesale gas prices compared with last year. Electric Ireland raised its prices in July. SSE Airtricity's increase adds an average of \u20ac310 a year for 296,000 customers, and Bord G\u00e1is Energy's increase will add an estimated \u20ac317 to the average household bill from 9 October. Gas prices are already around 90% higher than they were four or five years ago and electricity is around 70% higher. The situation has further deteriorated recently and a general energy credit needs to be examined to shield householders from the worst of the increases. We also need to see generous increases in pensions, social welfare payments and child benefit, so that income keeps pace with the cost of heating a home and feeding and clothing a family.  I ask the Minister to build on last year's progress in the budget, in particular on the fuel allowance, which rose to \u20ac38 a week in January, and families on the working family payment now qualify. That was the right decision. This year the rate should rise again and the income thresholds should be extended so that more households on modest incomes are brought in.  In the last few minutes remaining to me I wish to raise the amendment to the Charities Act 2009. I am aware of a recent case where a charity with no assets at all went through a huge rigmarole to try to merge with another charity. That needs to be streamlined. It might not be addressed in this particular amendment, but it is something that we need to be cognisant of. I accept there need to be safeguards around charities and a whole system around it but there needs to be a varying degree of charities, some of which can easily either cease to trade or merge with others because that is going to come more to the fore as time goes on.  I thank the Minister and his officials for their work on this Bill and in modernising services in the Department. I look forward to continuing to engage with him as this Bill progresses during and before the budget preparations. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mark Wall","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Mark-Wall.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mark Wall  I welcome the Minister to the House today. I also welcome the opportunity to speak on the Social Welfare, Civil Registration and Charities (Amendment) Bill 2026. The Minister will be very much aware that in July of this year, I and other members of the Joint Committee on Social Protection, Rural and Community Development published our pre-legislative scrutiny of the general scheme of this Bill. I want to address those key considerations that were brought forward from those who appeared before the committee. I note that the Department is taking into consideration the recommendations brought forward by the committee ahead of Committee Stage of the Bill. A change to the public services card is an important part of this Bill and has been subject of a lot of debate in the past. Witnesses before the committee raised concerns about the use of the public services card as a form of age verification. Will the Government give due consideration to these concerns? This is particularly important given the revelation that the Data Protection Commission found the Department of Social Protection unlawfully processed facial biometric data of approximately 70% of people over 15 years of age.  The second point made by members in the recommendations made by the committee was that:  \"the scope, limits to the scope and intended use of the Public Service Card be clearly set out in legislation.  - Any proposals to extend the use of the Public Services Card to additional services be subject to appropriate legislative processes and oversight.  - the use of the Public Services Card be supported by clear safeguards and transparency measures, including clear rules on [the use of] data  - the voluntary nature of the Public Services Card be maintained in practice and monitored on [an] ongoing basis, to review that individuals are not disadvantaged where they choose not to use the card as a form of identification.  Given these, I seriously question whether this is necessary. The public services card had a clear rationale: it was for accessing social protection payments and services, and then it was broadened to Government services. Now, the Government is going further and extending this to the private sector, in effect, becoming a de facto national identity card. As a national Parliament, we cannot allow this debate to go on without the Government addressing this fact. Is this in any way linked to the Government's so-called digital wallet and any forthcoming online safety measures? I seriously question whether this is necessary and if it is, the Government should outline its point and not bypass a debate on what is, for all intents and purposes, a national identity card. The Government must outline its intention now, and as quickly as possible.  I note that a key part of the Bill deals with digitalisation. That being said, it is important to consider the impact this could have on a number of different cohorts, particularly older people and those in rural Ireland. According to the CSO, in 2025 34% of people aged 75 and over had never used the internet, while 17% of households said they did not have access to the internet because of a lack of digital skills. Furthermore, Age Action has also said that 62% of people aged 65 and over face digital exclusion.  Equally, many parts of rural Ireland have poor internet connectivity, if they have any at all. The CSO reported that in 2025 only 84% of households in the midlands, which includes my county of Kildare, had access to fixed broadband. This is below the national average of 87%. Also, the percentage of those without internet access because it is unavailable in their area has only decreased by 1%, from 5% in 2024 to 4% in 2025. While I welcome the aims of the Bill regarding digitalisation, as TDs we cannot allow digitalisation to become an additional barrier for older people and those who live in rural Ireland. Digitalisation can only be done with inclusiveness at its centre, and alongside further improvements in internet connections and digital literacy skills. An example of this challenge is with the roll-out of the MyWelfare online service. This is, again, a very welcome modernisation of access to social protection, but it has become a barrier for many older people who are trying to apply for critical payments but find it difficult to print forms and fill them in. Any further development and expansion of digital services must only be done in a way that is inclusive of all people accessing services, in particular older people. This was one of the recommendations brought forward by the committee, and to ensure that the design and delivery of online services takes these barriers into consideration, while also allowing for opportunities to upskill older people in their digital skills.  Are the provisions of head 8 of the general scheme now gone? That head would have allowed the Minister to put the existing code of practice for determining employment status on a statutory footing. I note that this is a follow-on from the Supreme Court's Karshan ruling, which has tightened the legal definition of self-employment. Putting the code on a statutory footing would fall short of what is needed to be done to tackle bogus self-employment and to protect workers in the gig economy. My Labour Party colleague, Deputy Marie Sherlock, previously introduced a Bill to address this in 2021. Could the Government clarify whether head 8 is gone from the Bill, or if it intends to use a different legislative mechanism?  Like other colleagues, I welcome the aim of the Bill to make technical amendments to improve the work of the appeals office. This is something I have spoken to the Minister about for a long period. I have raised the long waiting time for processing appeals, which is having a detrimental impact on family carers, people with disabilities, lone parents and older people who are waiting to access vital payments. I am aware the Minister has carried out some work on this but could he continue to work on the length of time people are waiting for a decision on their appeals? I note that according to the most recent reply we have received from the Department of Social Protection the average waiting time is around 13 weeks. However, my office has been supporting people who have been waiting for up to a year to hear about their appeals. That is simply not good enough. In the past the Minister has agreed with me about this. I sincerely hope the proposed changes will go some way towards bringing down the waiting time for appeals, especially for those people who need the payments most.  This is a very small piece of legislation but, as has been said by other colleagues in the Chamber tonight, there are much more urgent issues facing many low-income, vulnerable households.  I am particularly concerned about the Taoiseach\u2019s recent comments regarding child poverty and the statistics. Ireland is a rich country, so when we hear that the rate of child poverty is increasing it should be of concern to us all in the House. The Government should not be scraping the bottom of the barrel by talking about definitions of poverty when we know so many children are suffering. If this Government is serious about tackling child poverty and supporting low-income households, then budget 2027 should be a children's budget.  We need fundamental reforms that support households with the rising cost of living. The Government needs to bring forward a second tier of child benefit payment to support those on lower incomes. That cannot be done alone because many working families are also struggling. They are struggling to pay bills and to put food on the table. These are the people who are keeping this country going and they are the people that we and the Government need to support.  We need to see progress on reforming parental leave entitlements for working families. Ireland is very much out of step with the rest of Europe when we look at the duration of leave on offer and the rate of payment that obtains. This is a big issue for new dads in particular. Unfortunately, new dads are only entitled to two weeks' paid paternity leave, for which the rate is \u20ac299. The latter is not enough to support a family. That is why dads cannot spend time supporting their partners in those key early weeks and months. I raised this issue recently with the Minister for children regarding a mother who could not cope due to having a Caesarean section and needing extra support at home. The Government must take the first step in reforming parental leave entitlements by extending paid paternity leave for new dads and work towards introducing a pay-related payment that actually supports workers to spend more time with their child. Recently in the House, the Minister for children indicated the Department of Social Protection is working on this. These reforms must also include supporting lone parents who cannot access the same amount of leave as two-parent families. Lone parents should be entitled to the same leave because the care needs of a child do not change regardless of whether there is one parent or two in the home.  I cannot let this opportunity go without raising with the Minister the need to increase the age threshold for domiciliary care allowance from 16 to 18 years of age. The Minister is very familiar with the number of times I have raised this with him. I know it is something he has committed to consider. I hope he will consider it in the context of the upcoming budget.  I am also concerned about the number of older people who have been in contact with my office and who are struggling with their energy bills. This issue has been raised a number of times already. I refer in particular to older people who live alone. This is a massive issue for my office. The Government must look at increasing welfare payments for older people, starting with increasing the fuel allowance, extending the season and increasing the household benefits package.  I look forward to continuing the debate on the merits of the Bill as it progresses through the House. As already flagged, there are a number of critical issues that must be clarified by the Government. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Paul O'Shea","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"John-Paul-O'Shea.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Paul O'Shea  I rise to support the Social Welfare, Civil Registration and Charities (Amendment) Bill 2026. As the Chair of the Joint Committee on Social Protection, Rural and Community Development, I had the opportunity to see at first hand the detailed work that went into the pre-legislative scrutiny of the Bill. The committee considered the general scheme of the Bill on three separate occasions. We heard from officials in the relevant Departments and, importantly, we also heard from a wide range of stakeholders and experts, including the Data Protection Commission, the UCD Centre for Digital Policy, Age Action, the Irish Council for Civil Liberties and Digital Rights Ireland. This engagement was extremely valuable. The committee submitted its pre-legislative scrutiny report to the Minister for Social Protection on 2 July. The report contains 24 recommendations covering areas such as digital public services, the public services card and the operation of the social welfare appeals office. I acknowledge the work of committee members in producing the report and I welcome the fact that the recommendations will be considered on Committee Stage.  At its heart, the Bill seeks to modernise and improve a number of important areas of public administration. There are a number of technical amendments to the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005, including with regard to outdated references and formally repealing the pre-retirement allowance scheme, which closed to new entrants almost 20 years ago.  There are also important changes proposed in relation to the public services card. I particularly welcome the proposal that a person can, at their own discretion, use their public services card as a form of identification with a non-specified body such as a credit union, a bank or a utility provider. There is also provision for a person's date of birth to be included on their public services card where they request this, allowing the card to be used as a means of verifying their age. However, these changes also underline the importance of getting privacy, data protection and individual choice right. The committee's engagement with the Data Protection Commission, digital policy experts and civil liberty organisations was particularly important in this regard. Digitalisation can make public services easier and more accessible but it must always be accompanied by strong safeguards. People should have confidence that their personal information is being handled properly and that they retain appropriate control over how their identification is used.  I also welcome the amendments designed to improve the operation of the social welfare appeals office. For people who are depending on a social welfare payment an appeal is not simply an administrative matter. It can have a very real impact on their ability to meet everyday household costs. An appeals system must, therefore, be fair, accessible and efficient. I welcome the efforts made to improve its operation.  The amendments to the Civil Registration Act are important. The Bill will make a number of practical changes to improve the functionality of the General Register Office, including provisions relating to the registration and reregistration of births, notification of deaths and the information required when registering a birth online. I particularly welcome the provision enabling Tusla to register or reregister the birth of a child with the father's details on foot of a court order. There are also important provisions for people who have been affected by incorrect or illegal birth registration, including changes in terminology in the legislation. These are very sensitive issues that affect people's identity, family history and personal lives. It is important that our legislation reflects this reality and provides an appropriate framework for dealing with these cases.  I welcome the amendments to the Charities Act 2009. The charitable and community sector plays an enormous role in our communities across Ireland. From large national organisations to small local community groups, charities provide services, supports and opportunities that make a real difference to people's lives. The proposed changes relating to the Charities Appeal Tribunal, including the provision for a quorum, the nomination of a deputy chairperson and the protections relating to witnesses, are important in ensuring this tribunal can operate effectively. A properly functioning regulatory appeals framework is essential to maintaining confidence in the charity sector.  This Bill does not make one major change. Rather, it makes a collection of important amendments across social welfare, civil registration and the charities sector. That does not make it any less important. Good legislation also means keeping our existing laws up to date, removing provisions that are no longer relevant, improving administration processes and ensuring our public bodies can operate effectively. I believe the Bill makes progress on all of these fronts.  I reiterate that the work undertaken by the joint committee has provided an important opportunity to examine these proposals in detail. The 24 recommendations contained in our report should continue to be considered carefully as the Bill progresses. Where improvements can be made, we should make them. Where stronger safeguards are required, we should put them in place. Where legislation can make people's interaction with the State simpler, fairer and more efficient, we should try to facilitate that. For the reasons outlined, I am happy to support the Social Welfare, Civil Registration and Charities (Amendment) Bill 2026. I look forward to its further consideration. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Social Protection (Deputy Dara Calleary)  I thank all of the Deputies for their contributions, particularly those who serve on the joint committee. I thank Deputy O'Shea for chairing it and I thank the clerk and the team. I will respond to a number of the issues raised; a number of specific issues were also raised, about which I will engage with Deputies also.  Over the years the Department has been asked why the PSC, which is State issued, cannot be used by a cardholder to prove identity if they wish to do so. Other Government documents, such as a passport or a driving licence, can be issued in this manner. This is why we are introducing the Bill; it is to give people the choice, if they wish, to use the PSC for this purpose. The public services card is a token that is issued on the completion of a safe registration process. It is the evidence of a substantial level of assurance of a person's identity. One of the benefits of the public services card is that it is available free of charge. There is no fee associated with getting or renewing a PSC.  I am very mindful of the cost a person incurs when they need a passport or driving licence or need to renew either. We receive queries from cardholders and voluntary bodies, as well as from many people in this House, asking why it is not possible to use a PSC to verify a person's identity if that person chooses to do so. We get about 100 queries a month over the phone from individuals and various bodies asking if the PSC can be used as proof of identity. This does not include the informal queries that come through the Department's network. Cardholders who have expressed a wish to use their PSC to verify their identity for purposes such as opening a bank or credit union account or for utility contract purposes, often cannot afford another form of identity. To date, it has been an offence for those bodies to accept a PSC. These changes are to deal totally and purely with those situations where people want to use their PSC for identity purposes in the circumstances referred to. Clearly, it is for those individuals themselves to use it for themselves.  The processing of personal data, including sensitive personal data, is already subject to clearly specified safeguards under the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005, as amended, and in accordance with the GDPR. Additionally, my Department actively implements a range of oversight arrangements for the processing of all personal data held by the Department. The Department provides very clear information, including through our privacy statement, which is across publicly available information materials, and in communication to PSC cardholders. The proposed amendments do not alter these safeguards. They simply enable an individual to voluntarily use their PSC as proof of identity or age with non-specified bodies if they choose to do so. It remains the case that in law only specified bodies may request a PSC and non-specified bodies cannot request a PSC.  In relation to the Data Protection Commission there are two inquiries into the processing of personal data in relation to the PSC. One has been completed and the other is before the courts, so I will not refer to it at this point. In its August 2019 decision, the Data Protection Commission found that the Department could only authenticate the identity of and issue a PSC to its own customers and not to anyone who wanted a PSC to transact with other public bodies. Subsequently, the commission accepted in December 2021 that the Department could continue to process personal data to authenticate the identity of and issue a PSC to any person who requested one and not just the customers of the Department of Social Protection. It remains the case, therefore, that we await the outcome of the other court case. I have listened carefully to the concerns raised today in relation to the PSC, but I again emphasise that today's amendment is a voluntary one that relates with giving people the capacity to use this card in respect of bodies currently not allowed to accept it.  A couple of issues came up in relation to some specific things. Deputy Hayes raised the issue of data repositories and making them interoperable with other Departments. There are no proposals under this Bill to create any new interoperability arrangements beyond those that already exist in legislation. Again, as per the existing arrangements, the sharing and verification of PSC data are governed by the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005, as amended. There are no plans to provide access to PSC data to non-public entities. Any sharing of PSC data is governed by legislation and is restricted to the bodies authorised in law.  Turning to the other provisions of the Bill, in relation to social welfare appeals I acknowledge the three Deputies here in the House. I am sure other Deputies raised queries as well, but the three social protection spokespersons, Deputies O'Reilly, Wall and O'Shea have constantly raised the issue of appeals with me. We are very focused on appeals. In relation to Deputy Ward's remarks on domiciliary care allowance appeals, we are very focused on that and we are dealing with it. It is often the case, however, that the appeal is not the same and extra information is provided. I want to get to a situation where we get clarity on what information is needed in the first place. We have put a particular focus on domiciliary care allowance appeals, and I thank the appeals officers.  Turning to Deputy Wall's question, at the end of June 2026, the average processing time for social welfare appeals was 12 weeks. The average processing time for social welfare appeals in 2025 was 21.2 weeks. We will be dealing with a parliamentary question on this issue from Deputy O'Reilly on Thursday. Ahead of that, I will seek to get the breakdown of the schemes in order that we can identify any particular challenges. There should not be a situation where it takes a year. I am happy to engage with the Deputy around that issue. I thank the chief appeals officer and her team. They are continuing to monitor processing times, and we are making every effort to reduce the time taken to process an appeal. We will be able to engage on this issue more during parliamentary questions on Thursday.  In relation to the issues around the charities legislation, no change in policy proposed as part of these amendments. Deputy Devlin raised this issue. The Charities (Amendment) Act 2024 revised and updated the existing charity legislation. When it is fully commenced, it will improve the ability of the Charities Regulator to conduct its statutory functions and to provide greater transparency, clarity and fairness in terms of the regulation of charities. This is something that the Minister of State, Deputy Buttimer, as the line Minister of State with responsibility in this area, has engaged on in the context of the delays involving charitable bodies and the Charities Regulator. We are focused on that.  I assure Deputy Wall and all other Deputies that in the midst of the budget negotiations, we are very focused on child poverty. I secured a specific \u20ac320 million child poverty package for budget 2026. We are working on budget 2027. We worked yesterday on the school meals programme, which is a major initiative on the child poverty side. The Department of Social Protection is involved in the school meals programme in order to bring that element to people.  I have tried to deal with as many of the issues as possible. I look forward to the engagement on Committee Stage. I thank the officials from the three Departments who worked on the Bill. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Social Welfare, Civil Registration and Charities (Amendment) Bill 2026: Second Stage"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_16","debateType":"debate","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/84","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/84\/dail\/motion\/referral","houseCode":"dail","stage":"motion","isBillStage":false,"showAs":"Social Welfare, Civil Registration and Charities (Amendment) Bill 2026: Referral to Select Committee (D\u00e1il)"}},"showAs":"Social Welfare, Civil Registration and Charities (Amendment) Bill 2026: Referral to Select Committee","counts":{"speechCount":2,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_16","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  It is proposed to refer this Bill to the Select Committee on Social Protection, Rural and Community Development, pursuant to Standing Orders 103 and 188. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Social Protection (Deputy Dara Calleary)  I move:  That the Bill be referred to the Select Committee on Social Protection, Rural and Community Development, pursuant to Standing Orders 103 and 188. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Question put and agreed to."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Social Welfare, Civil Registration and Charities (Amendment) Bill 2026: Referral to Select Committee"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_17","debateType":"debate","bill":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/87","event":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/bill\/2026\/87\/dail\/2","houseCode":"dail","stage":"2","isBillStage":true,"showAs":"Home Heating Oil (Emergency Mineral Oil Tax Reduction) Bill 2026: Second Stage [Private Members] (D\u00e1il)"}},"showAs":"Home Heating Oil (Emergency Mineral Oil Tax Reduction) Bill 2026: Second Stage [Private Members]","counts":{"speechCount":43,"speakerCount":32},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_17","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor D. McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Cullinane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sorca Clarke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sorca-Clarke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Sorca-Clarke.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Johnny Mythen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Johnny-Mythen.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Johnny-Mythen.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ann Graves","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ann-Graves.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ann-Graves.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Johnny Guirke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Johnny-Guirke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Johnny-Guirke.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Stanley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ken O'Flynn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ken-O'Flynn.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ken-O'Flynn.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Nicholas Gogarty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Cahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Carol Nolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Natasha Newsome Drennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fionnt\u00e1n \u00d3 S\u00failleabh\u00e1in","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fionnt\u00e1n-\u00d3-S\u00failleabh\u00e1in.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Fionnt\u00e1n-\u00d3-S\u00failleabh\u00e1in.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pearse Doherty  I move: \"That the Bill be now read a Second Time\".  Families and workers across the State are being ripped off by the cost of home heating oil. Prices are going up and up and for months, the Government has refused to act. This is not happening in isolation. At the same time, petrol and diesel prices are rising. Energy companies are hiking their bills and groceries are getting dearer day by day, stretching household budgets.  A fill of home heating oil is now approximately \u20ac700 more expensive than it was at the start of the year. The cost of home heating oil has jumped up a number of hundreds of euro in the last three weeks alone. This is money that many families simply do not have. That is why my legislation is so important tonight. It is why every TD should support this legislation and give relief to families and workers out there. It is a straightforward piece of emergency legislation. It is a measure that removes all excise duty and all carbon tax from home heating oil and provides immediate relief to people who desperately need it.  This is not a new argument. This is the eighth time that I have brought legislation before this House demanding that the Government act and reduce the cost of home heating oil. Eight times I have called on the Government to put workers and families first. Eight times I have called on the Government to cut the taxes on home heating oil - something that could be done with the stroke of a pen - and on every occasion, this Government has voted \"No\". Again and again, Fianna F\u00e1il, Fine Gael and the Independents who prop them up have voted against the interests of the Irish people.  I will not stop bringing this issue up here on the floor of the D\u00e1il because too many families are struggling out there, too many families are stretched to the limit, and too many people are wondering how they will afford their next delivery of oil and are, right now, sitting in homes with empty tanks. When I met those families in different parts across the State, I made them a promise. I said that I would keep fighting for them. I told them that I would be their voice here in the D\u00e1il, and that is a promise I intend to keep. That is why my legislation is before us today. That is why this is the eighth attempt to try to get the Government to see sense.  The Government needs to wake up. It needs to understand the needs of the Irish people out there. This is not a radical proposal, folks. This is common sense. It is not extreme. It is the bare minimum that people should be able to expect from a government at a time like this.  Simon Harris has the neck to go out in the media and say that the Government cannot fully insulate households from energy prices. This is the same Minister for Finance who has not reduced a single cent of tax on home heating oil. How dare he, while people are telling me that they have to buy home heating oil to keep their homes warm in 5-gallon drums because they can no longer fill their tanks? They can no longer afford a half-fill, never mind a fill. It is astonishing, after months of warning and after all the pressure, that the Government still does not recognise that it needs to act.  Let me tell the Minister of State that the people cannot wait any longer. They need relief now. By God, if the Government does not act on the pressure that people are under, I have no doubt that the people will rise and give the Government their message when they take to the streets.  In the past three weeks alone, the price of home heating oil has gone up by \u20ac300. That comes on top of an increase of \u20ac500 since the start of the year. People are not blind to what is happening out there. People have heard enough talk. They do not want more promises; they want action. They do not want excuses; they want lower bills. They want relief. They want my legislation enacted.  The Government could do this immediately. The Government could do this with the stroke of a pen. Tonight, the Government could vote to pass all Stages of this legislation and reduce the cost of home heating oil for 700,000 families across the State. A Government that was serious about putting workers and families first would do exactly that.  Let us be clear. This issue goes way beyond home heating oil. The Government also needs to get its act together on petrol and diesel. Let me say it again, and I will not stop: the Government needs to cut taxes on diesel and petrol further. It needs to get the price of green diesel, to support our farmers and contractors, down. The Government needs to cut the taxes further and it needs to take away carbon tax from home heating oil. We will not give up until the Irish people get what they deserve, namely, the implementation of this legislation. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pa Daly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Pa-Daly.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pa Daly  There is a sense of d\u00e9j\u00e0 vu around at the moment. There was some excuse, in March and April of this year, when the Government was off around the world and left nobody in charge and ignored the calls of the people to reduce the cost of home heating oil. Families in every corner of the country have continued to be squeezed since that time while the Government has sat on its hands and done nothing. Our proposal will remove carbon tax from home heating oil and cut the cost of a 1,000-litre fill by \u20ac183. It is a simple measure. At a time when oil prices have soared by over \u20ac700 and household budgets are under unbearable pressure, that is not only justified, but essential.  We have brought forward, as Deputy Doherty said, this proposal eight times and each of the eight times, it has been rejected and ignored by the Government. The Government keeps repeating ad nauseam it wants to help the people in the here and now, but again, it is sitting on its hands. This is the Government's chance. If the Minister of State has the courage of his convictions and if every TD who supports the Government has the courage of their convictions, they can stand with ordinary workers and families, or is the Government to turn its back on them yet again?  For seven months, this issue has been staring Government in the face. For seven months, workers, families, pensioners and people living in rural Ireland, in particular, have shouldered the burden alone, but for seven months, Fianna F\u00e1il, Fine Gael and the supporting Independent Ministers of State have refused to take meaningful action and reduce the costs. Older people are still worrying about when they can afford to turn on the heating. They are reducing the oil that they are buying, even only filling 5-gallon or 10-gallon drums to keep them going from day to day and from week to week. Families are cutting back on groceries to save for the delivery of oil. People are already struggling with rents, mortgages, childcare and rising energy bills, but look around for help from the Government, which has a record surplus, and there is nothing.  The cost of 1,000 litres of heating oil has risen from approximately \u20ac900 to over \u20ac1,600 in the space of a year, an increase of almost 75%. People are in crisis. What makes it even more outrageous is that, as the prices rise, the State is taking in record amounts of revenue through taxes such as VAT.  Families are paying more and the Government is collecting more while refusing to provide the relief people desperately need. Is the Government going to act? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Conor D. McGuinness","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Conor-D-McGuinness.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Conor D. McGuinness  We are seven months into this particular crisis with the increase in the price of oil and families are dealing with almost a doubling of the cost of home heating oil. I am dealing with families who are deciding whether to restrict spending on other essential parts of life, for example, whether they will cut down on the grocery shop, whether they will do a grocery shop this week, or how they will feed their children, so that they can put oil in the tank because prices have gone from approximately \u20ac900 for a fill last year to an average price of \u20ac1,600 for a fill this year and the Government has done absolutely nothing to reduce the pressure on families or reduce the cost. It has not removed one cent of excise duty from home heating oil, despite Sinn F\u00e9in having brought forward a proposal eight times. This is the eighth time we have brought forward a proposal while the Government has sat on its hands and made out it is not a problem.  The Government talks around the subject, flies kites and says it might do something, but that is of no use to new parents with a newborn baby who need hot water and a home. It is of no use to older people who are living the twilight years of their lives in one room because they cannot afford to heat the rest of the house. It is no good to the people who are already in arrears on their electricity bills, cannot afford oil and are wondering how they will stay warm this winter. That is the reality facing people on the Minister of State's watch and that of Fianna F\u00e1il, Fine Gael and the Independents propping them up. It is simply not good enough.  It is a disgrace that not one solitary Fianna F\u00e1il or Fine Gael backbencher or Independent Member is in the House as we discuss this modicum of respite for hard-pressed families across the State - rural and urban - when it comes to the cost of heating their homes. It is an absolute disgrace. They might come down and do the right thing by supporting this legislation. It is not too late. We are here. We are putting it forward and they have a choice to make. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh  Is iad costais fuinnimh an t-\u00e1bhar imn\u00ed is m\u00f3 at\u00e1 roimh theaghlaigh agus gn\u00f3lachta\u00ed faoi l\u00e1thair. Energy costs are the biggest worry facing families and businesses at the moment. Seven months into this energy crisis, the Government has not removed a single cent of carbon tax from home heating oil. For rural households, particularly in my and the Minister of State's constituency of Mayo, this is devastating and unsustainable. Does the Minister of State know how many women have done themselves injury by trying to carry 5-gallon drums of oil to last them a few days until they are paid? We have no access to the gas network. We have no alternative to filling the oil tank and people are now facing bills of more \u20ac1,600 for 1,000 litres of oil. That is \u20ac700 more expensive than it was this time last year. It is simply unaffordable for the people we represent.  It is not just households. Small businesses are being crippled by energy costs. Many are barely able to keep their doors open. One bad winter could finish them off altogether. All of this comes in the context of today's report that wholesale electricity prices are 77% higher than they were this time last year. The pressure is coming from every direction. A record number of households are in energy arrears.  This is the eighth time my Sinn F\u00e9in colleague has brought forward legislation to cut the cost of home heating oil and on every occasion the Government has voted \"No\". The Government has voted against the people of Mayo and the wider country. Our legislation would remove all excise duty on home heating oil. People cannot heat their homes with Government promises about what might happen in the budget and they certainly cannot afford another round of half measures. The Government has had its opportunity. It has an opportunity to act tonight. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Sh\u00f3nagh-N\u00ed-Raghallaigh.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sh\u00f3nagh N\u00ed Raghallaigh  T\u00e1 teaghlaigh ar fud Chill Dara Theas ag streachailt le bill\u00ed fuinnimh, go h\u00e1irithe iad si\u00fad at\u00e1 ag brath ar cheiris\u00edn agus gan an dara rogha acu foinse eile a \u00fas\u00e1id. T\u00e1 praghas ceiris\u00edn tar \u00e9is ard\u00fa suas le 75% gan faic d\u00e9anta ag an Rialtas chun na teaghlaigh seo a chosaint \u00f3 na hathruithe ar phraghsanna. Caithfidh an Rialtas \u00e9isteacht le cosmhuintir na t\u00edre agus tac\u00fa le r\u00e9iteach Shinn F\u00e9in ar an bhfadhb. Families in south Kildare are struggling with their energy bills. We are heading into another difficult winter and families desperately need support. Home heating oil prices have skyrocketed in the past 12 months, rising by as much as 75% in some cases. A fill of 1,000 litres of oil will now set families back more than \u20ac1,600 compared with \u20ac900 for the same amount of oil one year ago. The latest price spike at the end of summer has once again caused huge anxiety for households who rely on kerosene to heat their homes.  Rural families across south Kildare are disproportionately affected by these increases and in many cases have no alternative heating source available. Constituents have contacted me to say they simply will not be able to afford to fill their tanks this winter if current circumstances continue. Incredibly, we are seven months into this crisis and the Government has done nothing to help these vulnerable households. Not a single cent has been lifted off excise duty or carbon tax.  I appreciate that the fuel allowance is intended to support those most in need. However, I have received correspondence from many working families who do not qualify for the support, but are still struggling to pay their bills. This comes against the wider backdrop of a cost-of-living crisis with electricity, housing and insurance costs all continuing to rise. Sinn F\u00e9in is bringing forward a simple proposal to ease the pressure on these hard-working families by temporarily removing all excise duty on home heating oil. The price of 1,000 litres of oil could be reduced by \u20ac183. This is the eighth time Sinn F\u00e9in has brought forward proposals on home heating oil this year, yet the Government continues to bury its head in the sand. It is time for the Government to listen and put workers and families first. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"David Cullinane","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","memberCode":"David-Cullinane.S.2011-05-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy David Cullinane  The Minister of State and the Government have had their heads in the sand about the cost-of-living crisis and squeeze for far too long. In recent years, Sinn F\u00e9in has used every opportunity we could to point out the challenges facing workers and families, with groceries, insurance costs, rents, mortgage costs, and petrol, diesel and home heating oil going up. Every time we raise these issues, the Government has to be dragged kicking and screaming to react. Even when it does react, it is a crisis response. It is temporary and does not deal with the problem. Then it comes back with its tail between its legs having to correct to what it should have done in the first place.  We warned the Government last year and this year that this was reaching a tipping point, that it would spill onto the streets and there would be protests. It ignored us. What happened? There were protests. Then it blamed the protesters and took no responsibility for the fact it had failed. We have been saying to the Government for years now that the cost of home heating oil is extreme. It is far too high. For the 700,000 homes that depend on home heating oil, it is unbearable at the moment, with all the other costs, yet the Government is doing nothing. In fact, it fought Sinn F\u00e9in tooth and nail saying carbon tax could not be touched, and now we are hearing that the Government might do something on carbon tax.  What it could do tonight is accept an Teachta Doherty's Bill and give people certainty by moving on this issue. All people have seen from the Government is delay and delay. I have made this point over and over again. Fine Gael in particular does not like it. The Minister of State's party represents a cosseted, privileged class. It always has and always will. That is why I work tooth and nail so that, one day, we will have a Government that will do the right thing and support people in a cost-of-living crisis and not continue to keep its head in the sand. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sorca Clarke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sorca-Clarke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Sorca-Clarke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sorca Clarke  I want the Minister of State to come to Longford-Westmeath and meet the families who have been looking at empty oil tanks for months, hoping against hope the Government would move as prices got higher and higher. The Minister of State has the gall to ask them to hope a little more and to hold on a little longer so that the Government might just get a notion of doing something in the budget. That is not good enough. For seven months, the price of home heating oil has been in crisis.  I remember banging on doors in the run-up to the last general election when it was -4 degrees Celsius, and when people opened them, no heat came out. This has not just been going on for that length of time. The price might have been lower, but it was still biting. For all those seven months, the Government has failed to act each time Sinn F\u00e9in has put proposals in front of it. It has failed to recognise the pressure families are under or to comprehend what its actions are doing to families the length and breadth of the country.  In my area, 1,000 litres of oil will set you back \u20ac1,600 today. That is not another household bill; that is a second mortgage. Many people simply do not have it. It hits rural areas like mine so much harder than urban areas because we do not have a choice. In my area, you cannot simply connect to the gas network because it does not exist. You cannot simply magic solar panels onto the roof because the waiting lists are eight, nine or ten months long. No responsible government would tell a family who is sitting in a cold home tonight that it might help, hinting that there will be something in the budget when that family needs heat and needs oil today. Tonight, the Government has a very simple choice. It can tell those families, including those families in my area, to keep paying or it can actually stand up, do something constructive and take action today. Winter will not wait and neither should the people of Longford-Westmeath. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell  Tonight's motion is about the here and now. This D\u00e1il has an opportunity to cut the price of oil tonight. The facts are very clear. People cannot pay their bills. They cannot afford to put fuel in their cars. They cannot afford to put oil in their tanks. That has happened on the Minister of State's watch. He is from the west of Ireland just like I am. He understands the impact that storms and sudden changes in the weather can have. The Government is telling people that it might do something in a number of weeks, although it has voted this measure down several times. My colleague, Deputy Pearse Doherty, has brought it before this House eight times. The Government says it might do something at some point. The people cannot wait because the people cannot pay. They cannot wait because there might be a sudden change in the weather. What will the Government say to people then? Will it tell them they can freeze in their homes?  Pensioners cannot afford this. Every single year, we have a discussion in here about pensioners who are struggling to heat their homes. That started before this crisis. The numbers of pensioners in poverty, in insecure housing and in homelessness are all increasing. There is certainly going to be a serious rise in the number of pensioners who cannot afford to put oil in their tanks to keep their houses warm. That is most certainly going to be on the Minister of State. He needs to listen to what the people are saying. He needs to listen to what we on this side of the House are saying. He needs to do right by the people. The people cannot wait any longer for the Government to decide whether it is going to act on oil. This disproportionately affects the people in the west of Ireland. The people in the west of Ireland have had enough. They should be allowed to heat their homes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment (Deputy Alan Dillon)  I move amendment No. 1:  To delete all words after \"That\" and substitute the following:  \"D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann declines to give the Home Heating Oil (Emergency Mineral Oil Tax Reduction) Bill 2026 a second reading on the grounds that related matters are being considered as part of Budget 2027 on 6th October 2026\".\"  Ireland has a strong economy. The job of Government is now to make sure that people feel that strength in their everyday lives. We fully recognise the pressures high energy and fuel costs are placing on households, on farmers and on businesses. These pressures are real. They are being felt at the pumps, in home heating bills and in the cost of running farms and businesses. The conflict in the Middle East has created economic pressures far beyond the region itself. De-escalation would have the single biggest impact on international energy prices. No Irish government can fully insulate people from a global energy shock. Anyone who claims otherwise is not being honest. However, Government can take action to protect households and key sectors and it has done so.  Budget 2027 is now only 14 days away. When Deputy Farrell talks about the here and now, it is just political theatre. By the time this Bill could take effect, budget 2027 would already have been announced----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell  The budget is for next year. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Alan Dillon  -----and the winter heating season would already be under way. I think Sinn F\u00e9in knows that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell  The Minister of State is talking about budget 2027. It is 2026. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Alan Dillon  This is the appropriate mechanism through which the Government can examine these pressures comprehensively and decide what further assistance is warranted. The budget allows us to take a full view across a range of energy costs and across all affected households and sectors rather than dealing with one fuel or one tax measure in isolation. We should not pre-empt discussions that properly belong in the budgetary process, the product of which is only days away. The T\u00e1naiste has been clear that Government is examining the best way to assist people whose home heating oil costs have already risen considerably. These include possible taxation measures and targeted supports such as the fuel allowance. The Department of Finance has also published options on how the carbon tax framework might be modified for particular products, including home heating oil. These are decisions for budget day.  In the budget, this Government will use the resources available to help people who work hard and who want to get ahead and not simply get by. We want people to feel the benefits of hard work in their own pay packets. Our priority is to reward work and to reduce everyday costs facing families, including energy and childcare costs. We are also very much focused on supporting older people, carers and people with disabilities, recognising their contribution and the security they deserve. We will build more homes and deliver infrastructure and public services to continue meeting this country's needs with faster delivery, less bureaucracy and better value for every euro. We will do so responsibly, protecting the public finances for the long term.  This is not a government that has stood back. Since the beginning of the crisis seven months ago, we have provided approximately \u20ac1.4 billion in supports and delivered one of the largest packages across the European Union on a per capita basis. We deferred the 1 May carbon tax increase on home heating fuels. We have reduced excise duty on petrol, diesel and green diesel. We have enhanced the diesel rebate scheme for hauliers and passenger transport operators. We have supported road transport operators, farmers, farm contractors and fishers. We have reduced the NORA levy. We extended the fuel allowance season by four weeks from 28 to 32 weeks, with the weekly rate increased from \u20ac33 to \u20ac38. Eligible households now receive \u20ac1,216 over the extended season. Eligibility was widened to almost 50,000 additional households, including families receiving the working family payment, with approximately 470,000 households now benefiting. That is close to one in every four households across the State. The T\u00e1naiste has also made clear that the planned phased restoration of excise duty due to begin in November must be considered in light of the current prices. If elevated prices persist, proceeding as originally planned may not be prudent. Again, the judgment should be made in the round, through the budget.  Turning to the Bill itself, Sinn F\u00e9in promises an emergency period during which the mineral oil tax on kerosene used for home heating would be set to zero. The Minister for Finance would, therefore, have no discretion over that rate. This would reduce the Government's flexibility to target limited resources where they can make the greatest practical difference. The Bill also raises serious legal and policy questions. Heating fuels such as kerosene and natural gas fall within the scope of the European Union's emissions trading system for buildings and road transport, ETS2. Ireland's arrangements are designed to avoid double taxation, provided our national carbon price meets the relevant European conditions. Those calling for the outright abolishment of the carbon tax must, therefore, be conscious of these consequences. A blanket removal could mean carbon revenue being collected and controlled through the European system rather than retained and spent nationally. Nobody in this House should lightly support transferring control of those revenues away from the Oireachtas.  There are also further practical flaws. One is that the increase in the price of home heating oil is principally driven by the international wholesale price of oil and not by new Government tax. The carbon tax accounts for only a limited share of the current average price while the non-carbon element of mineral oil tax on kerosene is already set at zero. The Bill cannot offset a global market shock and it does not offer the same approach to households that heat their homes using natural gas or other fuels. The proposal suggests that one tax measure provides a complete answer when the responsible course is to assess home heating, electricity, transport, income tax and targeted welfare supports together. Carbon tax should not be viewed in isolation. Its revenues are recycled into measures that continue to protect people from energy poverty and reduce our dependence on expensive imported fossil fuels.  These revenues support the fuel allowance, fully funded home energy upgrades, the wider retrofitting scheme, investment in our electricity grid and measures to help farmers transition to lower carbon practices. Since 2020, more than \u20ac4.2 billion in carbon tax revenue has been allocated to the just transition and decarbonisation measures. Demand proves these programmes matter. Last year alone, 58,000 homes were retrofitted. Since 2019, more than 287,000 home energy upgrades have been delivered, including over 39,500 fully funded upgrades for households at risk of energy poverty. Solar PV applications, heat pump applications and insulation upgrades are all rising strongly. This is the contradiction at the heart of Sinn F\u00e9in's position; it consistently opposes the carbon tax but its alternative budgets have repeatedly relied on the revenue it generates. It cannot credibly promise to abolish the source of funding while continuing to count the same money to pay for social protection and retrofitting.  People need practical help, not a false promise that one Bill can control international oil prices. The Government has acted to reduce costs and protect vulnerable households. We are examining further supports for home heating oil, energy costs and the wider cost of living. We will be making those decisions in budget 2027 in a comprehensive, targeted and responsible way. The long-term answer is also clear: Ireland must reduce its dependence on imported fossil fuels, strengthen our energy security and invest in warmer homes, renewable electricity and a stronger grid. This is how we protect households from future price shocks. For those reasons, I again press the Government amendment that D\u00e1il \u00c9ireann declines to give the home heating oil Bill a Second Reading. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darren O'Rourke  We are now many months into this crisis and Fianna F\u00e1il, Fine Gael and the Independents have still not removed a single cent of excise or carbon tax from home heating oil. That is the reality facing workers, families and pensioners right across this State. The facts speak for themselves. The cost of home heating oil has soared by as much as 75% in the past year. A household ordering a 1,000 litre fill today is paying more than \u20ac1,600, compared with around \u20ac900 for the same amount a year ago. We are heading into winter and a record number of people cannot pay their energy bills. A total of 320,000 people cannot afford electricity, one in four cannot afford to pay their gas bill and hundreds of thousands more are racing every day just to keep up.  People have to be able to heat their homes and that means cutting prices. The emergency legislation we are debating this evening would remove all excise duty on home heating oil, removing the carbon tax entirely. This is the eighth time Sinn F\u00e9in has brought forward proposals to cut the price of home heating oil this year. At every opportunity, the Government has voted against them; six times against these very measures. The Government now indicates it may move on this in the budget. That U-turn is the direct result of sustained political pressure from Sinn F\u00e9in and others and growing public anger. However, we know what is likely to follow - there will be more half measures and tinkering around the edges. It is far too late for that. People cannot afford for the Government to wait any longer. Days and hours matter in these instances. The Government needs to put workers and families first and support the Sinn F\u00e9in legislation this evening. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Johnny Mythen","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Johnny-Mythen.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Johnny-Mythen.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Johnny Mythen  I thank my colleague, Deputy Pearse Doherty, for bringing this Bill forward at such a crucial period in ordinary people's lives. It is a time when people are facing into a winter dominated by the cost of living crisis. Inflation is running at 3.7%. Petrol and diesel prices have increased day by day, with forecourts displaying prices of \u20ac2.14 per litre and upwards. Electricity, gas and other fuels are up 8.5% while rents increased 9.1% alone in the past year. Public transport fares are being increased by 15%. Carbon taxes are being increased again on 1 November. Over 1.5 million people rely on home heating oil, with approximately 53% of them living in rural areas. The cost of home heating oil has risen by 50%. These are the facts. Clearly, something needs to change and change rapidly. The wait and see brigade are not cutting it any more. The present economic conditions need to be addressed now. People must be given hope, certainty and assurance that someone has their back. To be blunt and honest, that was far from the form of the last budget.  It is in the power of this Government to cut the cost of home heating oil by accepting the emergency legislation put before it by an Teachta Doherty. This gives the Government a direct line of action on a six-month basis, with the option of an extension should the high prices of home heating oil continue. I will finish up on a sentiment from one of my constituents in Wexford, George, who is an OAP. George told me that, as an OAP, filling a standard domestic oil tank now places an immense financial burden on his household. With the current average of 1000 litres sitting well over \u20ac1,600, heating his home has become a major financial strain rather than a basic necessity. By rejecting this Bill, the Minister of State has once again demonstrated the mentality of live, horse and you will get grass. This is disgraceful. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ann Graves","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ann-Graves.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ann-Graves.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ann Graves  Eight of the largest oil companies have made war profits of more than \u20ac79 billion in less than three months. This is at a time when workers and families are struggling with fuel prices. In 2008, the price of crude oil reached record levels of $145 per barrel. The price today is $101 per barrel, almost one third cheaper, yet consumers are paying exorbitant rates for their fuel. The biggest driver of cost is tax. Ordinary workers are being forced to dig deeper and deeper into their pockets to pay for these profits. I understand the Government cannot control global conflicts but it must protect Irish workers and families from the effects of those conflicts. This is the eighth time Sinn F\u00e9in has brought forward legislation to reduce the cost of home heating oil. At every opportunity, the Government has voted against it. I hope, for the sake of the people I represent in Fingal East, that the Government votes in favour of struggling families.  From media leaks, it appears that the Government will make some sort of move in the forthcoming budget but this is only as a direct result of sustained pressure from Sinn F\u00e9in and the growing public anger in our communities. Voices demand action. People's voices are growing louder and people are growing more impatient with Government inaction. The cost of home heating oil has soared by as much as 75% in the past year. Last Saturday, people took to the streets of Dublin to demand an Ireland where we can all afford to live. It was a coalition of political parties, trade unions, disability organisations and community groups, all demanding that the Government respond to the cost of living crisis. This Bill will have an immediate effect on the cost of oil for the public. It would reduce the cost of a 1,000 litre fill by \u20ac183. I urge the Government and all TDs to listen to the voices of ordinary workers and families and vote in favour of this Bill. People are struggling now and the Government needs to act now. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Thomas Gould  I was speaking to a taxi driver today in Cork. He said that it recently cost him \u20ac74 to fill his taxi. This morning, it cost him \u20ac110. He asked me how they can survive. They cannot keep putting up the prices of taxis because it will price them out of the market but what will they do if they do not get help from this Government? Our Bill is here. We are trying to be constructive and help ordinary, hard-working people and families. I was down in Little Island recently and I met a man who was so angry. He has a couple of vans on the road and a couple of fellas working for him, making deliveries. He said he is working seven days a week. Do you know what he told me? He said he has four children between the ages of 11 and 23 and he has told them that the minute they are finished college or their apprenticeship they should get out of this country because there is no future here. That is not what I am saying; it is what people are saying on the streets. The Minister of State is shaking his head. I am telling him what these parents are telling me because they do not see a future here in this country with the cost of living, petrol, diesel, home heating oil, the highest electricity costs in Europe and the cost of gas and food. Everything has gone up. We are trying to provide solutions. We are trying to provide help. The Government comes in and blocks us every time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Alan Dillon  The budget is in 14 days. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Thomas Gould","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Thomas-Gould.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Thomas Gould  The budget is the budget. That is no good if you do not have the money in your budget to put food on the table, pay the gas bill or pay the electricity bill. The Government has its budget but what about ordinary working families? What about their budget? What do they do next?  People are looking for hope. That man down in Little Island said to me that he would be better off on the dole. He is working seven days a week. He has his own vans and his own workers but he said every time he breaks his melt he has nothing left. What is the Government's answer? It is to wait for the budget and forget about what Sinn F\u00e9in is trying to do. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Johnny Guirke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Johnny-Guirke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Johnny-Guirke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Johnny Guirke  Home-heating oil in Meath was an average \u20ac480 for 1,000 litres back in 2020. The average price this year is \u20ac1,330 for 1,000 litres with that price for 1,000 litres currently today at \u20ac1,649. Families across Meath are being hammered by massive increases week on week. People across Meath have been contacting me each week in shock at the huge jump in the price of home-heating oil and fuel for their vehicles. Seven months into the crisis and, Fianna F\u00e1il, Fine Gael and the Independents have still not removed a single cent of excise or carbon tax from home-heating oil. Sinn F\u00e9in's proposal would save homeowners \u20ac183 on a fill of home-heating oil. People need to be able to heat their homes and this Government is removing any alternative to oil such as turf, another tradition taken away by this Government.  Energy prices continue to rise with no action being taken once again by Fianna F\u00e1il, Fine Gael and the Independents. Energy companies make massive profits while households suffer. They dread to see their electricity bill come through the door. The cost-of-living crisis has hit many people in Ireland. People with disabilities and the elderly must choose between eating and heating. These people need heat in their homes all year round.  Workers in Ireland have never worked so hard but had so little. Inflation has eaten away at any wage increases they may have got. Workers are worse-off now than they ever were before. The Government must take direct action to protect households. It has the chance to intervene and support Sinn F\u00e9in's Bill to reduce costs for people and families who are struggling. People in Meath need a government that has their back. Right now, it does not and it is not supporting workers, families and the people of Ireland. This is the eighth time Sinn F\u00e9in has brought forward proposals to cut the price of home-heating oil this year. At every opportunity the Government has voted against our proposals. People cannot afford to wait any longer. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Rory Hearne  I thank Sinn F\u00e9in for bringing forward this Bill. It is absolutely true that people across this country really are struggling. This Government appears to be completely out of touch with the scale of their struggling. Barnardos recently released figures from a survey it did on families and children. It was very sad to see the lack of coverage it got and particularly from the Government. That survey found that in one in five families the parents are skipping meals so that their children can eat. This is one of the wealthiest countries in the world and we have tens of thousands of families where children are going hungry. There is something deeply wrong.  One of the reasons it is so bad is because this Government is completely out of touch with what people are going through. It has completely failed to do a number of things. First, it needs to tackle the issue of price gouging and massive profiteering that is going on. The Taoiseach, the T\u00e1naiste and Ministers stand up here and say, \"What can we do about the cost of living? Energy costs are going up. It is because of the war in the Middle East. It is because of rising fuel costs.\" However, it is not rising fuel costs that are causing rents to rise by 10% a year. That was the Government's decision to allow the rents to rise at local authority level but also by removing the rent cap for the vulture funds.  How much profit would the Minister of State say AIB made last year? AIB made \u20ac2 billion in profit last year, which is utterly scandalous. That is not including the other banks. How much profit was made by the big investor landlords? They made hundreds of millions of euro. How much profit was made by the ESB? It made \u20ac500 million. Literally billions are being taken in profit and the people are paying for it. They are paying through higher energy bills, rents, bank fees, insurance premiums and food costs. During the cost-of-living crisis, profiteering and price gouging are going on and we have seen an absolute failure of the Government to tackle that.  There are other things the Government could be doing to tackle the cost of living, particularly its promise around childcare. Where are the reduced childcare fees? Where is the real delivery of affordable childcare? We in the Social Democrats have put forward a public childcare model that would actually deliver affordable childcare. Simon Harris has now been in government for 12 or 14 years. Where is his promise to reduce the cost of GP care for children? Someone with a child who is eight now has to pay the full cost of GP care. Where is the most basic promise of children and families being able to go to the doctor without having to be worried about the cost of it? It is scandalous. Families are choosing between paying the rent or paying electricity and gas bills, and bringing their child to the doctor. It is absolutely unacceptable in a so-called wealthy country that families are deciding whether to pay to eat or to pay for GP care. The Government could be doing so much more.  The other area is the issue of energy costs. We in the Social Democrats believe there should be a targeted \u20ac400 energy credit. We could pay for that by a windfall tax on the energy companies. It is extremely frustrating that European leaders wrote to Simon Harris, the T\u00e1naiste, to put this on the table for discussion at the recent meeting but he did not want to know about it. Why does he not want to put a windfall tax on the energy companies? Who is the Government afraid of? Everyone would back the Government if it put a windfall tax in the energy companies. Why is it not doing this? I believe it is still captured by an ideology about not interfering with the market. Not only does it not interfere but it actually helps the market when it comes to housing and rents. It subsidised the big investor funds. It is the same thing with the energy companies. It believes it cannot interfere and will not interfere. It is the same thing with the banks. The Government will not increase the levy on them and will allow them to screw people. The people have to pay for all this profiteering and the Government is not standing up for ordinary people who are really struggling.  It is an absolute scandal and a shame that seven in ten young people say they see no future in this country. They say they just want to leave because it is the only way they would get a better quality of life. A nation has failed. We are a failed nation when the majority of young people say they see no hope and no future in this country. The Minister of State can shake head but that is the truth. Young people see no future in the country of Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael because they have taken their hope from them and taken their future. They gave it to the vulture funds. They hammered young people during the austerity years and they continue to do so. Some 90% of them say they are negatively affected by the cost-of-living crisis. Every single young person is country is struggling and what is the Government doing for them? It is absolutely failing to give them a sense of a future to give them hope.  Despite all the GDP growth and all the budget surpluses our young people say it clearly. What is the outcome of decades of Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael in government? It is that they see no future here. It is very sad. I hope those young people stay and fight to change this country. I hope they demand it to be different and join with those of us who are trying to push for a very different type of Ireland. The Government has failed them and we need to see substantial transformative change in this budget that reduces rents, provides genuinely affordable homes, provides targeted energy supports and really tackles those fundamental issues of the profiteering and price gouging that is going on in this country. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ged Nash  I will be sharing time with my colleague, Deputy Eoghan Kenny. I thank Sinn F\u00e9in for tabling this Bill this evening. I know it is very much anchored in Sinn F\u00e9in's position that it has opposed the imposition of carbon taxes over a number of years.  It is also very much anchored in the consistent position it has enunciated over many years in relation to local property tax, USC and so on. We in the Labour Party take a different view. Our view is based on how we can best provide the supports required for people who will need them the most through what will be a very difficult winter. I recall very well debates in the convention centre - God help us - several years ago, when we were setting out the ten-year agenda for incremental and predictable increases to the carbon tax as a means of reducing reliance on fossil fuels at that time and out to 2030. I remember the view being expressed by Ministers at the time that this was a means by which we could broaden the tax base. This was very much bedded in the principle of ensuring the polluter pays - an important principle - but also that by the time we got to the end of this process in 2030, we would all be rolling in renewable energy. We would have cheap energy shipped in from out at sea, connected into the grid and we would be supplying half of Europe with cheap energy because of the investment we were going to make into offshore wind.  This Government and the previous Government have missed two, if not three, targets for offshore wind at this point and will not generate a single kilowatt of offshore wind until the early 2030s. That is the position we are in, yet energy bills climb continuously without any respite. We were also told we could expect a retrofitting revolution, that homes would be warmer and cheaper to heat and those who needed the most help for a genuinely just transition - because we do not have a genuinely just transition - would get it through this system and Exchequer revenue-supported schemes.  I accept that the past two energy shocks had nothing to do with this Government but what has been its response? We saw reports today of a 77% surge in electricity wholesale prices. That is only going to - excuse the term - add fuel to the fire over the next few months. We will not see the impact of that until early next year - an early new year present from the energy companies which, at this present time, are popping the champagne corks and celebrating excess profits that are being generated not because of the genius of their engineers and business managers but because of the volatility of international energy markets and our reliance in this country on gas and oil. Almost half of our electricity is generated by gas. This is absolute madness. From an economic, social and climate point of view, it is absolutely crazy. We have not moved the dial on that. We cannot control in any way the price of the commodities we import, but we can do what we can as a state that has the resources to support those who need support the most. The jury is out as to whether or not, for example, carbon tax increases - blunt instruments used across the board - are the best way of addressing the needs of those on low and middle incomes.  I have just come from a meeting of the budgetary oversight committee where Professor Alan Barrett of the ESRI said the worst way one could possibly help struggling families and businesses at the moment with their fuel costs at the pump is excise cuts. He more or less said it is bananas. There are other ways of doing it. An ESRI report last week said very clearly, and I am paraphrasing here, that there are of course impacts on the imposition of carbon tax, but the best way to mitigate that, to deal with the issue lower and middle income workers are experiencing and to keep those resources to ensure they are used for retrofitting, fuel allowances and so on, is through the tax and social welfare systems.  We have to also ask ourselves what we have got. We have 700,000 homes dependent on kerosene across the country. It is not just a rural issue either. It is an issue in my home town of Drogheda and Deputy \u00d3 Murch\u00fa's home town of Dundalk. The reliance on kerosene is also an issue in urban Ireland. What are we going to do about that? We all want to provide people who are reliant on home heating oil with some breathing space this autumn and winter. This is going to be an extremely difficult winter. The question is how we do that and do it efficiently, sustainably and effectively. The second question is how we deal with that structural problem of moving people away from kerosene and innovating to ensure we can get to a sustainable alternative.  I will return to those questions in a moment but the crystal ball tells us two things. We have seen the media briefings today. The first is that Government will no doubt push the planned excise restorations on petrol and diesel out to next year. This is the Realpolitik of the situation. That is what is going to happen and I will be more than surprised if it does not. The second is that it will do something on carbon tax in terms of home heating oil in the budget. Can we stop the shadow boxing going on at the moment and get real about this? We need to stop pretending and stop spoofing. People understand the direction of travel of this and where it is going. Let us have a bit of honesty about this debate. We cannot simply continue to subsidise fossil fuels in the way we have. People are looking for alternatives; they want the safe and sustainable alternative. We cannot continue, in all reality, to chase the price of petrol and diesel over the next few years. In many ways, that will leave people less well-off. Why do I say that? We are going to see people dependent on social welfare in the next few years. With the funds available through carbon taxation and excise, we are going to see retrofitting, the fuel allowance and so on competing with other Exchequer revenue resources that are ordinarily used for other social welfare systems, such as the pension and so on and also through the PRSI system. There are going to be those kinds of trade-offs and we need to be honest about this debate in the coming period.  From our point of view, there needs to be an increase of at least \u20ac7.50 on the fuel allowance this year and an extension of it out by another four weeks. That will add another \u20ac400 to the fuel allowance for families who need it in the coming period. That would address the issue of the proposed rises to the carbon tax - which I do not believe will happen, by the way - over the next while. We need those energy credits paid for by the imposition of a levy on the excess profits of the energy companies. This is an issue we will be returning to. It is the issue du jour , as it were, and I look forward to engaging with Government on the budget in this respect in the next period. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Eoghan Kenny","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Eoghan-Kenny.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Eoghan Kenny  As my colleague Deputy Nash has outlined, the Labour Party has provided significant costed budgetary proposals that would help people in the here and now. I do not think any of us in this House can justify raising taxes or increasing the price of petrol, diesel or home heating oil on ordinary working people any further in the midst of a years-long cost of living crisis.  For families across Ireland, the cost of living, the cost of the very basics, is continuing to spiral. The costs of simply getting to work, getting children to school, attending appointments, doing the weekly shop and keeping daily life moving are keeping many people in poverty and dragging people into energy arrears, bringing them to a paycheck-to-paycheck battle. There is deep frustration among the public and it is hardworking ordinary families who are being put to the pin of their collars, trying to make ends meet. Ordinary people are being squeezed from every direction. For many, there is no easy alternative to using a car. They have to drive to work and they have to bring their children to school or childcare. They have to travel to access healthcare, shops and essential services, yet they are being asked to absorb additional costs that many simply cannot afford. Families across this country are at absolute breaking point. People are doing everything right. They are working, paying their taxes and trying to provide for their families, but they are still falling behind as costs of fuel, groceries, energy and housing continue to put pressure on household budgets. That is where our focus must be.  We also need to consider what these policies mean for younger people. According to a survey by the National Youth Council of Ireland, 68% of those aged between 18 and 24 years surveyed said they were considering moving abroad, while 71% said they believed they would have a better quality of life outside of Ireland. I have been receiving more and more texts and emails from young people in Cork who are around my own age about the state of living and working here. They are asking a very basic question: how are they expected to build a future here in Ireland? Young people are facing enormous pressures from the cost of housing, energy, transport and everyday life. Many of them are working hard, paying their taxes and contributing to their communities and society, yet they do not feel they are getting on. Costs keep going up while too many public services continue to struggle. A basic necessity such as getting to a GP appointment or being seen in a hospital is a wait.  Schools are struggling to meet even their most basic running costs, with principals being forced to make difficult decisions about how limited resources are spent. Roughly 30% of households are experiencing fuel poverty. Many Irish homes are older, poorly insulated, and have low building energy ratings. Those homes require significantly more energy to heat.  The people most vulnerable to increases in fuel and energy costs are often those least able to pay for them. They include older people living alone, lone-parent families, unemployed people, people with disabilities or chronic health conditions who may have higher baseline heating needs, and private renters who can face particular difficulties because they cannot make decisions about retrofitting or improving the energy efficiency of the homes that they live in. These are the people we need to think about when we are discussing the likes of increasing carbon taxes on home heating oil.  Of course, we must take climate change seriously. Ireland needs to reduce emissions and improve energy efficiency but we cannot simply continue adding costs to households and telling people to absorb them when alternatives are lagging far behind. This is a perfect storm that the Government has a heavy responsibility for. The Government cannot control geopolitics but it can control how rapidly it invests in renewables and implements their usage broadly. The Government should focus on practical measures to help people change their behaviour without making it harder for them to make ends meet, including properly funded home retrofits, better public transport, affordable alternatives to car dependency, support for rural communities and targeted assistance for households facing energy poverty.  We need policies that protect families, support workers, help young people build a future here and deliver genuine reductions in emissions. People are already paying are paying enough. That is why I cannot simply support further increases in carbon tax when so many households are already struggling with the cost of living. They deserve a good government that recognises the pressure that they are under and focuses on solutions that are fair, affordable and practical, just like the solutions that the Labour Party has presented. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Seamus Healy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","memberCode":"Seamus-Healy.D.2000-06-22","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Seamus Healy  The cost-of-living crisis has been building in this country since Covid. It is now at gale-force strength, battering families right across the country. The Government made the crisis even worse by withdrawing the cost-of-living supports in the last budget, costing families up to \u20ac1,400. This year, 2026, has seen more huge increases in the costs of all essentials and families are under increasing pressure, trying to make ends meet. They are put to the pin of their collar. The position is so bad that half a million families are in arrears with their electricity and gas bills and seven out of ten young people see their future abroad.  The price of home heating oil has increased by 15% in the past two weeks, and it is up 70% on this time 12 months ago. A total of 500 litres of home heating oil is \u20ac100 more costly today than it was two weeks ago. A total of 700,000 houses, mainly in rural Ireland, are affected by this. It is another indication of the discrimination against rural Ireland. Carbon tax must be removed from home heating oil and VAT should be reduced from 13.5% to 9%. Oil companies are making obscene windfall profits and they must be subject to a windfall profit tax. The eight largest oil companies have made $93 billion in profit in three months. It is immoral.  Electricity credits are essential for the coming winter and I believe a \u20ac500 electricity credit must be introduced. Data centres are paying electricity charges at half the household rates and they must be made to pay at least the same as householders. Groceries are also up significantly, costing a family an additional \u20ac2,500 over the past few years. We need price caps on energy and groceries.  The budget in two weeks' time must protect families. We have the money. The Government found over \u20ac2.5 billion down the back of a sofa in October 2024 to buy the November 2024 general election. This is one of the wealthiest countries in the world. The budget in two weeks' time must, as a minimum, reduce the cost of home heating oil by removing the carbon tax and reducing the VAT rate, introduce a windfall profits tax, make data centres pay the same electricity rates as households, pay a \u20ac500 energy credit to households, introduce a second tier of child benefit for poorer families, increase the fuel allowance, implement the living wage and increase social welfare rates by \u20ac15. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Roderic O'Gorman  Families need help with their energy bills this winter but deferring the carbon tax is the very worst way of going about that. Irish households are suffering from a cost-of-living crisis that, at its heart, is driven by our country's dependence on fossil fuels. The carbon tax remains the only part of our entire taxation system which is designed to help the country and help individual families break that dependence on fossil fuels. To defer the carbon tax at this point would fundamentally undermine this goal. Some 26% of Irish households are dependent on home heating oil, and the price of kerosene has risen by 59% in the past year. That is not driven by the carbon tax. It is driven by international events. Even if the government was to defer the carbon tax, this fuel continues to be subject to volatility, with Iranian attacks in the Strait of Hormuz, or Houthi attacks in the Red Sea.  Neither the Bill proposed by Sinn F\u00e9in today nor the motion from Independent Ireland tomorrow have set out how the revenue lost through carbon tax deferrals will be made up. Without this, the Sinn F\u00e9in Bill will mean that in 2027 fewer homes will get new renewable energy systems and fewer low-cost solar panels will be installed. Reducing funding for these measures is the worst thing that could be done in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis and the Green Party will not support any legislation that has the effect of doing this.  There are alternative ways in which we can help Irish households this winter and in the future. The Green Party has proposed a fossil fuel inflation fund of \u20ac2.5 billion in 2027 from the surplus. This would fund targeted energy credits through 2027 for households with the lowest 70% of incomes, ensuring support goes to those who need that support the most. The fossil fuel inflation fund would also be deployed to support extra long-term measures to increase the retrofit of homes, increase the installation of low-cost solar panels, and see more replacement of oil heating systems with renewable systems. Those are the sort of long-term measures that, to date, have been completely missing from the Government's response.  The budgetary surplus that the country enjoys right now provides us with an incredible opportunity to ensure energy security for tens of thousands of Irish households and take major steps to reduce our carbon emissions. We need a Government that will go beyond the short-termism that we have seen since the Iran war started in February and a Government that will actually use budget 2027 to dramatically increase the level of funding for home energy measures. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Brian Stanley","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Brian-Stanley.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Brian Stanley  Households were never under pressure like this before. Middle and low-income households that coped in the past are under increasing pressure. Domestic home heating oil's sky-high cost is a huge contributory factor. In Laois, 41% of households are totally dependent on kerosene home heating oil and do not have an option. We have tracked prices, which have skyrocketed by 79% or more since last autumn. One political party claims that they went up 50%. I am not too sure where the data is coming from but the hard facts and the prices that are advertised and people are paying contradict that.  Before the energy crisis, kerosene was approximately 95 cent per litre. This week in Laois, the cost is \u20ac1.68 per litre. For households which are under pressure and cannot afford to buy 1,000 litres or 500 litres at a time, which are instead buying 200 litres at a time, the cost is between \u20ac1.75 and \u20ac1.82 per litre. The poorest hard-pressed households are paying up to \u20ac1.82 per litre. People are afraid to turn on their heating. I acknowledge that fuel allowance and the thresholds for eligibility have been increased. The Government can go further with that in the budget. I accept that. All those workers and middle-income people who do not get fuel allowance are caught with increased rents, mortgages, college fees, insurance, childcare, grocery, and public transport costs, at the very time when we are trying to reduce carbon emissions and to get people onto public transport.  We need solutions. We need to impose a levy on the big energy companies. We are talking about it and the Government is talking about it, but we need to act. The Government could reduce or stop the carbon tax on home heating oil under EU law. That is one of the things it can do. It should certainly reduce it or put the brakes on. The Government could reduce the VAT on home heating oil from 13.5% to 9%, as some in the industry are calling for. This would give immediate relief to hard-pressed families and households. The Government's take from the carbon tax on home heating oil has doubled in six years. That is some of the extra revenue that is coming in. A targeted energy credit is needed for those households that do not get the fuel allowance but whose incomes are below \u20ac75,000. I am not in favour of a blanket energy credit across the board, which would include well-off households. Some parties are. I would not support that. I do not think it is a good idea. It needs to be targeted.  On renewable energy, the quickest and most efficient gains can be obtained by installing solar panels. Improved grants are needed for those households caught in the middle or at the lower end. They are the ones who do not qualify for the fuel scheme, etc. We need to take on plug-in solar energy in a serious manner. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett  I thank Sinn F\u00e9in for bringing forward this Bill. People Before Profit is happy to support it. We would go further. We think price caps - and we have said this for some time - need to be imposed on home heating oil, petrol, diesel, electricity and gas. Our proposal is to bring the price of kerosene back to \u20ac1 per litre by imposing price controls that would eliminate the nearly 70% increase that 700,000 households in this country have had to endure as a result of Donald Trump's actions. Shame on people in this House who celebrated and supported Trump and who have refused to apologise - I am not talking about Sinn F\u00e9in in this regard - for doing so. People in this House have supported the policies of this man. Those policies will result in every household in this country having to endure higher fuel and energy bills this winter, as they have done for the past year.  The supposed friend of the small person turned out to be the friend of the oil magnates, billionaires and oligarchs. While other people were concentrating on what he was saying about whiskey when he was here last weekend, they should have heard what he said about oil and about going to war against Venezuela in order to get its oil. He also encouraged us to buy the American weapons that were so successfully deployed in taking out the President of Venezuela in order that America could grab that country's oil and profiteer from it. The Americans are profiteering while ordinary people are suffering because they cannot pay their bills or, in the case of those who rely on home heating oil, experienced a 70% increase in the cost of heating their homes thanks to Donald Trump and the Israeli regime. The Government should not unload that cost on the people who can least afford it.  Carbon tax is a regressive tax. The ESRI said a few things today. The one thing it categorically stated is that the tax is regressive. There is no getting away from that. The people who hurt most as a result of carbon tax are those least responsible for the cost-of-living crisis and least able to bear the increases that are happening. The Government should tax the profiteers. DCC Energy made \u20ac740 million in profits last year. It is a major supplier of kerosene in this country. It can afford to take a bit of a hit. Let us make it and the other energy companies, the electricity companies, the oil companies and the data centres pay a little more tax. We should make them pay some tax, and we could give a break and put price controls on energy and home heating oil. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ken O'Flynn","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ken-O'Flynn.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Ken-O'Flynn.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ken O'Flynn  I welcome the Bill. We have to talk about carbon tax. It punishes those who have the fewest choices in society. It punishes the families living in rural parts of Cork whom I represent. It punishes families at the lower end who cannot afford retrofitting. There is not much comfort in retrofitting when a person has to pay \u20ac18,000 for panels and gets \u20ac1,800 back from the Government. Some people in this House say that retrofitting is fantastic, but many people in the constituency I represent, which stretches from Ballincollig to Glanmire and Ballyvolane to Mayfield, cannot afford to get involved in retrofitting.  The price of home heating oil which increased by 44.6% in one year. A total of \u20ac160 in tax is taken on a fill of 1,000 litres of home heating kerosene. That is not sustainable. What the Government does not say out loud is that despite every excise reduction that it has made during this crisis, namely the 15 cent and 12 cent in respect of petrol and diesel and the 3 cent and 2.4 cent in respect of green diesel, not one cent was taken off the price of kerosene. There is a simple reason for that. It is because there is a non-carbon tax on the mineral oil and kerosene, the rate of which is zero. The Government decided that it was going to skip over home heating oil, knowing that the winter was coming, knowing how difficult it is for people to heat their homes and knowing about Members using the phrase - perhaps it is overused - about choosing between heating and eating. Many of my constituents in Cork are choosing just that, namely heating or eating.  Ministers House tell us that we have a surplus of \u20ac9 billion and that we have never been as wealthy. My constituents and the people I meet on the streets of Dublin, Sligo, Limerick and Wexford tell me a different story. They say that they are struggling at the till, at the pump and day to day. Some 500,000 people are in arrears with their gas and electricity bills, yet the Minister for Finance cannot pass a microphone without making some sarcastic comment and telling us how well off we are and that we should start saving. There is nothing to save. There is no money for a lot of people. There is very little in the back pocket. People are choosing poorer types of ingredients and products of a lesser quality because they cannot afford to do it any more. It has crept in, and not just in the social welfare class that some people like to talk about. It has crept into every part of society. It has crept into people who are continuously obliged to choose whether they will feed their kids or not. People are choosing what they can feed their kids. People are choosing whether to go to bed an hour earlier because of the cost of heating their homes. That is the reality of life. I sometimes feel that those who operate with in the bubble of this House do not understand what people are going through. We talk about free school meals, the books system and all the rest of it, yet the Government has dictated that most schools will now have to pay, on average, \u20ac600 per student for laptops and iPads. They have to sign up to packages. People are struggling continuously, and the Government has done nothing when it comes to kerosene and home heating oil.  This is a short Bill. It sets out provisions for six months in respect of mineral oil tax and a zero obligation in respect of home heating kerosene. The one fault I can see is that it states that the Minister must make a decision and sign it. If it is voted through this week, it is up to the Minister to bring the Bill forward. Truly, I do not trust the Minister to do that. That is the reality of it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Lawless  Carbon tax is regressive taxation. It punishes the poorest people in society. The people who are paying the most carbon tax and most fuel taxation are those in diesel and petrol cars, many of whom will never be able to afford solar panels or electric vehicles. Many are renters who will never have the opportunity to retrofit their homes. That is the truth. Carbon tax punishes the poorest people in society. I want to be clear. Five years ago, every party in this Chamber, with the exception of Aont\u00fa and a few good Independent TDs, voted in favour of the climate action legislation. Everyone with a bit of cop-on knew that this would lead to an aggressive carbon taxation policy. I welcome the U-turn and rhetoric change across this side of the House, but the level of groupthink in----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett  There has been no change. We have always been against carbon tax. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Lawless  ----- this Chamber must be addressed.  Introducing climate action legislation that contained legally binding targets was wrong and must be called out. The U-turn and the change in rhetoric are welcome.  Over the past few weeks, I have done quite a bit of research on taxation on fuel that I want to put on the record of the House. I want to be honest and transparent with the people of Ireland in the weeks ahead because I have no doubt that the Government will make every effort to outline to sectors that it cannot afford this or that because of the changes in fuel taxation. This Government is on track to take in more in carbon taxes this year than it did last year, even if the planned increase in carbon tax goes ahead in October. This Government is projected to take in more on VAT on fuel this year than it did last year. Figures released to me in recent days show that the Climate Action Fund, the fund into which moneys from the NORA levy are paid, is in surplus by \u20ac250 million, even though it has effectively been reduced significantly since April. The Government wants to reintroduce the NORA levy in six weeks, even though, despite it having had a significant reduction over the last five months, that fund is in surplus by over \u20ac250 million.  It is time that the spin and the rhetoric end. The Government is not in danger of running the accounts dry if current excise rates remain in place and the pause in carbon taxation continues. Carbon tax is not a means of redistributing wealth. It is a stick that the Government is using to beat the poorest commuters and the country's poorest citizens. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Nicholas Gogarty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Paul-Nicholas-Gogarty.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Nicholas Gogarty  The Home Heating Oil (Emergency Mineral Oil Tax Reduction) Bill 2026 targets the specific burden of the carbon tax on kerosene. Others have provided figures. I looked at a 500 litre fill, which is about 80.41 cent in carbon tax alone. When you add VAT of nearly 23%, you can see that the entire bill is made up of Government-mandated levies. In principle, I support the Bill in terms of the attempt to try to give hard-pressed people who have no other option a dig out. Whether it is a temporary reduction in carbon tax or a retention of the tax and some form of rebate, I do not think it necessarily matters once the money ends up helping people.  Carbon tax is an easy target for some sectors. It is the devil incarnate for some political groupings. Carbon tax, if done properly, represents an attempt to encourage those who can afford to do so to spend their money on cleaner, greener ways of living, thereby reducing the country's carbon emissions, which would have a knock-on effect for everyone. A just transition means that when you bring in money from carbon tax, you help the poorest in society. That has not always happened. For example, there are people in local authority houses who are waiting for them to be insulated. The roll-out of insulation works for such housing is absolutely abysmal. Some people are benefiting more from the way the carbon tax has been rolled out.  We have to have measures in terms of our EU and global climate obligations and in the context of they way climate change is manifesting, but we also have to look at the wars in Ukraine and Iran. Both have a lot to do with Trump, whether it is directly in terms of putting pressure on the Russians or specifically in relation to assisting Israel in targeting Iran but not getting anything out of it. I have said before that I have no gr\u00e1 for the regime in Iran, but Trump\u2019s policies have caused mayhem everywhere and are hitting Irish people left, right and centre.  It is very hard for people to get by. That is why, one way or another, I hope the Minister of State will take on the spirit of the Bill and look at people, particularly those in rural areas. I live in an urban constituency, but I know that rural areas have a higher level of oil usage. People in such areas do not have access to natural gas and it is harder for them to get a one-stop shop in a semi-detached kind of setting. As a result, their bills tend to be higher and they do not necessarily get supports. It can cost \u20ac15,000 to \u20ac18,000 for a very basic retrofit, up to \u20ac80,000 if you are doing it properly and more if you are getting the whole house refurbished. It is not something you can just do and say, \u201cMy bills have gone up by an extra \u20ac2,000 that I do not have this year, so therefore I am going to get the house wrapped or put in solar\u201d. It does not work that way. There is a middle ground in terms of rolling out loans that pay back. In other words, your energy bill stays the same and whereby, over ten to 15 years, you start to make a saving. We need more of that type of model as well as direct interventions in respect of local authority housing. Given the way Trump is going on and in view of the uncertainty globally, over the next six months we have to help people who are suffering. Reducing their cost of home heating oil is one way of doing so. That is why I support the thrust of this Bill. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Cahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Cahill  I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate on home heating oil and the very real pressure energy costs are placing on households across Ireland. This is an issue that I hear about every day from constituents in County Kerry. For many families in rural Ireland, home heating oil is not something that can be simply replaced overnight. It is the main source of heating in their home and when the tank needs to be filled that can mean finding a significant amount of money at one time. This is a very real cost-of-living crisis. We all know that household finances remain under enormous pressure. The latest CSO figures show that 8.3% of households with utility bills had fallen into arrears in 2025 while of households experiencing enforced deprivation, 38.6% had failed to pay a utility bill on time because of financial difficulties. I do not think anyone in the House should underestimate the pressure families are facing.  We also have to recognise the circumstances in which the increase energy prices is being driven. The current energy shock has been significantly influenced by international events and volatility in global energy markets. The Government cannot control the price of oil on the international market but it can decide how best to support households through periods of exceptional pressure. There has already been a substantial Government response. In budget 2026, the weekly rate of the fuel allowance was increased and the qualifying criteria were extended. There has also been record investment in home energy upgrades and retrofitting, with \u20ac558 million for residential and community energy upgrades provided in budget 2026. These measures matter because, ultimately, the best way to protect households from high energy prices is not just to respond when those prices rise but also to make homes warmer and more energy efficient and reduce the amount of energy families need to purchase.  Budget 2027 is just two weeks away. The Government has already indicated that the measures relating to cost of living and home heating oil and further energy supports will be central to the budget. Changes to mineral oil tax can be dealt with through the budget and the financial resolution process. The responsible approach is to recognise the genuine hardship being experienced while allowing the Government to consider the full range of measures in the forthcoming budget for families in Kerry and right across rural Ireland who depend on home heating oil. I will be looking very closely at what budget 2027 delivers. We need to make sure that those who are under the greatest pressure get meaningful support while continuing the investment that will make our homes more energy efficient and that will reduce the pressure on people in the longer term. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Carol Nolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Carol-Nolan.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Carol Nolan  T\u00e1 \u00e1thas orm deis a fh\u00e1il labhairt ar an mBille seo anocht. Tos\u00f3idh m\u00e9 ar na ruda\u00ed at\u00e1 sa Bhille. Before addressing the substance of the Bill, I want to make a simple point to the Government. If Ministers are unwilling to support this Bill because of the potential cost to the Exchequer, why are they equally unwilling to embrace measures which would cost the State absolutely nothing?  Why, for example, does the Government continue to maintain the ban on the commercial sale of turf? There would be no significant Exchequer cost involved in reversing that policy. In my county people were criminalised for cutting turf, as they were in surrounding counties, like Galway and Tipperary. It is simply wrong. Those of us who are practical suggested at the time - it was common sense - allowing people to continue to cut turf because many homes still depend on fossil fuels. That is fact and that is reality. This needs to be lifted and that policy needs to be reversed. It is disappointing to see that, despite continued and repeated concerns from rural communities, older people and those who still rely on traditional fuel sources such as turf, the Government has remained determined to restrict another means by which people heat their homes. This needs to be looked at and common sense needs to prevail here.  That speaks to a deeper issue as well. For many years now, successive Governments have pursued policies that have consistently made household energy more expensive, more regulated and more difficult to access. Whether it is carbon tax increases, restrictions on traditional fuels, rising energy levies, increasing network charges or new obligations that ultimately feed through into consumer bills, the direction of travel has always been the same. Ordinary households are expected to carry the burden at all times, which is simply wrong, as are working people, who are being taxed out of existence. Whether it be, as I said, the carbon tax increases or rising energy levies, it is unfair. It is tax after tax. It is difficult, therefore, to avoid the conclusion that this is not simply about revenue; it is about a long-running policy approach that regards higher energy costs as a legitimate tool for influencing household behaviour, regardless of the hardship that approach creates.  That is why today's debate really matters. At its core, this legislation recognises a reality that every Deputy here understands: hundreds of thousands of households continue to depend on home heating oil, particularly in rural Ireland. As I said, for those families home heating oil is not a luxury; it is a necessity. Then we have the reliance on fossil fuels, which is also a necessity. Many of these households have no realistic alternative available to them and they simply cannot replace an existing heating system overnight. They cannot undertake costly retrofit works at the drop of a hat and they cannot continue absorbing endless increases in energy costs without consequences for their household finances.  I am particularly concerned about the waiting lists for the warmer homes scheme, which is run by SEAI. Most elderly people are waiting two years. Something needs to be done about that to speed up that waiting list for anyone who is waiting to have their home insulated or wrapped.  The objective of reducing the tax burden on home heating oil deserves serious consideration here tonight. I have consistently argued that the Government must use every available lever to reduce energy costs. Following recent international instability and the impact on fuel markets, I called on the Government to implement mineral oil tax reductions similar to those introduced during the 2022 energy crisis. There exists a precedent here. I recently remarked that if Ministers were to fight energy suppliers with the same determination and vigour they display when confronting social media companies, families would be considerably better off. Unfortunately, many consumers feel they have been left largely at the mercy of rising energy costs while the Government continues to take a soft-touch approach.  I also have concerns about the proposed renewable heat obligation scheme. If compliance costs associated with that scheme ultimately end up on household bills, consumers will once again pay more without any certainty that meaningful additional benefits are being delivered. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Heneghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Barry-Heneghan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Heneghan  Agus m\u00e9 i m'oifig, bh\u00ed m\u00e9 ag \u00e9isteacht le go leor daoine ag caint faoin \u00e1bhar seo. Mar is gn\u00e1th, t\u00e1im an-bhu\u00edoch de dhaoine a thagann isteach anseo le solutions. N\u00edl na daoine at\u00e1 ag tabhairt amach ag r\u00e1 aon rud a bhfuil muid in ann a dh\u00e9anamh faoi l\u00e1thair. T\u00e1imidne sa Teach seo anseo ar son daoine na h\u00c9ireann chun a saol a fheabhs\u00fa. T\u00e1 daoine \u00e1irithe sa Teach seo ag d\u00edri\u00fa isteach ar political point scoring seachas ar solutions.  I think everyone in this Chamber knows that the current price of oil and fuel is being driven by what is happening across the conflicts of the world, be it Ukraine and Russia or the Middle East. All we can do in this Chamber is give as much of a cushion and as much protection to the Irish people as possible. It is the reason I continue to offer solutions to the Government. I am very grateful for the work the Independents have been doing on plug-in solar. I love hearing Members on all sides of the House speak about the benefits of plug-in solar and how it will help those who are struggling with bills in apartment blocks and those who cannot afford a couple of thousand euro for a solar system but who want to spend \u20ac400 or \u20ac500 on a kit that will have a payback period of two years rather than one of six to ten years. It makes sense. The UK did it on 27 August and I look forward to seeing it brought into Ireland.  In relation to the budget and home heating oil, one thing I urge the Government to prioritise - and I have been doing this in my work on the committee and in my emails and parliamentary questions - is the living alone allowance. It costs the same to heat a home whether someone is on their own or whether there are two people living in it. The tank is the same size, the rooms are the same size, and the winter will be just as cold. If we could bring in one thing that would really help, it would be to help those older people, the widowed, those with disabilities who are living alone and those with disabilities who are struggling with the cost of living at the moment. If we could put pressure on bringing in a higher income limit for a single person, I think that would really benefit the pensioner living alone whose pension has just put them above the threshold which then makes them lose the fuel allowance. They then lose access to the free warmer homes scheme. That is why I ask for a fairer income assessment. In a parliamentary question I submitted I asked how much it would cost if the Department increased the threshold by \u20ac4. The Minister responded that it would cost the State \u20ac52 million for the full year. That is targeted and affordable and will help those elderly and those living alone to get through these harsh months. When older people are warm they are comfortable, they stay at home, they stay in the community they have lived in and they stay around their neighbours. It helps their mental health and their routine and it is very good for their longevity.  I urge this Government to address targeted help. That is why I will keep plugging plug-in solar with the Independents. I will keep using my influence as an Independent for solutions. I really welcome the work of the regional Independents on the programme for Government commitments and on the programme for Government we negotiated. I look forward to seeing it deliver for the Irish people. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science (Deputy Marian Harkin)  I welcome the opportunity to respond to some of the issues raised in the debate on the Bill put forward by Sinn F\u00e9in regarding the taxation of home heating oil. As this House understands, Ireland, as a small, open, successful economy with a reliance on fossil fuels, is especially vulnerable to global energy price shocks. No government anywhere in the world can fully insulate its people from price shocks of the magnitude we have seen over the past seven months. However, as a Government, we have moved to support households, to support the most vulnerable with regard to these price shocks and to support key sectors such as our farmers, our hauliers and our fishers. Our actions so far have clearly shown that we have listened to our citizens and have been responsive to their needs.  In fact, we have provided one of the largest packages per head of population in the entire EU, with supports of more than \u20ac1.3 billion. Every man, woman and child in Ireland has received one of the largest packages of support in the EU. That is action. That is not talk. That is not an empty promise. That package has assisted many people in Ireland and, crucially, has included targeted measures to support the most vulnerable. That is why, in budget 2026, the Government acted to broaden eligibility for the fuel allowance. An extra 50,000 households have benefited. We now have more than 470,000 households benefiting from the fuel allowance and an additional four weeks\u2019 payment of \u20ac38 per week was also given to each one of those households. That is targeted action for those who need it most. That is why, in budget 2027, this Government is committed to supporting those most vulnerable to energy poverty while recognising that the tax system can only do so much.  I have noted the discussion this evening and want to respond by re-emphasising once again that the factors behind the increasing cost of energy are global in nature. It is not just the conflict in the Strait of Hormuz. It is the Houthi attacks and the war in Ukraine. All of these ongoing conflicts are pushing up the price of oil. However, this Government accepts its responsibilities and fully acknowledges the challenging and uncertain times in which we are living. We also recognise that people look to the Government to manage the impact of this global price disruption in a fair and equitable way. Therefore, on 6 October, this Government will deliver budget 2027 with the aim of making every person's life that bit easier. That is where the changes will come about - not tonight, not tomorrow, but on budget day. That is where the decisions will be made.  Today, during Leaders' Questions, the Minister, Deputy Chambers, outlined some of the broad brush-strokes of the budget. Of course, nothing is definite until budget day, but the Minister already listed an income tax package to reward workers and a Government response on the cost of disability and the cost of childcare. He also said that the wider issue of taxation on fuel and energy was under review, and that the Government was giving specific consideration to the cost of home heating oil. Decisions on the cost of home heating oil will be voted on, not tonight, but in the context of budget 2027.  Just as important as helping to alleviate some of the increased costs people are facing is the need to reduce our reliance on fossil fuels where possible. The Minister, Deputy Chambers, also spoke today of the need for a greater uptake of grants to improve energy sustainability. He said the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, would act on this. We cannot approach this issue from one side only. We must reduce our dependence on fossil fuels and progress will be made on this issue in the forthcoming budget. I was pleased to hear my colleague, Deputy Heneghan, once again call for the introduction of plug-in solar. In my opinion, the sooner the better. His idea, supported by the Independents from day one, can make a real difference and I hope to see it as soon as possible.  Despite all of the accusations we have heard from the Opposition tonight, the facts do not lie. Once again, I reiterate that this Government has delivered one of the largest support packages in the EU, per head of population, with a total of \u20ac1.3 billion available. That is the reality. Since the beginning of this crisis, the Government has deferred the 1 May carbon tax increase on home heating fuels. It has not reduced it but has deferred it. It has reduced excise duty on diesel, petrol and marked gas oil. It has enhanced the diesel rebate scheme for hauliers and passenger transport operators. It has funded payments to road transport operators under the road transport support scheme. It has funded payments to farmers, farm contractors and to fishers under the fuel income support scheme. It has also reduced the National Oil Reserves Agency, NORA, levy. However, nobody should forget that the work of that agency is to ensure that Ireland has adequate oil reserves. In these uncertain times, to continue funding that agency is prudent. Before this crisis, the Government was already acting to protect households with changes that were made in budget 2026, such as an extension until 2030 of the 9% VAT rate currently applied to gas and electricity bills, enhanced social protection payments and an increase in the fuel allowance.  I will make a comment about carbon tax. Carbon tax is based on the \u201cpolluter pays\u201d principle. That is something I am sure everyone in this House agrees with. It is an important part of Ireland's overall commitment to tackling climate change and lowering our dependence on fossil fuels. As of budget 2026, the Government has allocated more than \u20ac4.2 billion in carbon tax revenue for those kinds of scheme since 2020. The ESRI analysis consistently shows that the lower income deciles are better off as a result of the social protection measures funded by increased carbon tax. Why would we want to get rid of a tax measure that benefits the lower income deciles, which is what the ESRI tells us, as a result of the social protection measures funded by this tax? In budget 2026, more than \u20ac1.1 billion was allocated to climate action measures. For example, there was \u20ac566 million for retrofitting, \u20ac350 million for targeted social welfare interventions such as the fuel allowance and \u20ac173 million for green and sustainable farming measures such as the agri-climate rural environment scheme, ACRES. These funding programmes show that the Government has a proven track record of supporting the most vulnerable, and on budget day, it will be no different.  I once again say that the appropriate time to deal with the cost of fuels and home heating oil is in the context of budget 2027 in two weeks' time. It is on the basis that budget 2027 is two weeks away that the Government does not support the Opposition's Bill and again presses that the House decline to give this Bill a Second Reading. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Matt Carthy  For the benefit of bringing the Minister of State down from her ivory tower and into the real world, I will read into the record an abridged email I received from a constituent:  Hi Matt,  From a worried working family mother of three children, one just did his Leaving Cert ... a fifth year student and a first year student, I'm self employed and my husband is a full time joiner, we are scraping the barrel to stay above paying our bills, keeping food on the table and running a car, we are truly grateful that we have work but honestly hand on heart we haven't the price of a meal out when we have our bills paid. Winter is upon us and we have oil heating, it isn't going on we have an open fire but that just purposes the living room, but at least we have it definitely no coal been bought just plenty of sticks ...  We are in 2026 and where we should be getting by nicely but we are crippled and that is down to Government.  What about us working class; my husband leaves the house at 4.45 a.m. each morning for work to keep us afloat but out of his wages he pays almost half of it in taxes.  I suppose I\u2019m making contact for you as part of the opposition to fight our corner in the Dail, we are at knife edge and I\u2019m so afraid with stress and worry some of our health will deteriorate, we need help.  When the Minister of State and her colleagues pontificate about political manoeuvres, this woman's story and the hundreds of thousands like it are the reason Sinn F\u00e9in has brought this motion tonight. We will make no apologies for demanding that workers and families get the break they deserve because, as the Minister of State said, the facts do not lie. The facts are that last year the Government introduced and supported a budget that included \u20ac9 billion of additional spending and families like this were left worse off. They are the absolute facts, so we will do everything we can to force the Government to abolish carbon tax on home heating oil; to reduce the cost of petrol and diesel; abolish the USC on the first \u20ac40,000; to tackle the soaring cost of energy, insurance and groceries; and to finally begin easing the pressure on families like this. It is the least they deserve from the Government. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Natasha Newsome Drennan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Natasha-Newsome-Drennan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan  Yesterday, when I was in Kilkenny city the price of diesel was a staggering \u20ac2.16 a litre. These prices are crippling ordinary people right across the State. The rising cost of fuel has a knock-on effect on nearly every aspect of our lives, be it getting to work, taking the kids to school, driving them to training or simply doing the weekly shopping. Ordinary people are being squeezed tighter and tighter. We need to call out the double standards at play by Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael. When the bankers wanted a break, they got a sweetheart deal to pay just 1% tax. When the big property developers looked for a break, they got mega tax cuts. The Government did the same for the likes of Starbucks and McDonald's, but when ordinary working people or the elderly look for help, they are told it is just not possible. It is time the Government started to stand with ordinary people, not with the elites. A fill of home heating oil is up over \u20ac250 in the past two weeks. No one can afford to fully refill a tank any more. Every week I hear from people across Carlow and Kilkenny who are struggling, especially the elderly and those living with a disability - people with little to no alternative to heating their home with home heating oil. They are the people who do not have the thousands of euro they would need to carry out a retrofit. The motion we have brought before the D\u00e1il to remove the carbon tax from home heating oil will help those people. It would make a real noticeable difference. It is time to give people certainty and hope as we head into what without doubt will be a very tough winter for so many people.  The Minister of State said the Government has helped people. I can tell her that people are just not feeling it. If the Government is to get a clap on the back, the only thing it could be for would be putting record numbers in arrears and record numbers in homelessness. That is nothing to be looked up to. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Fionnt\u00e1n \u00d3 S\u00failleabh\u00e1in","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Fionnt\u00e1n-\u00d3-S\u00failleabh\u00e1in.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Fionnt\u00e1n-\u00d3-S\u00failleabh\u00e1in.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Fionnt\u00e1n \u00d3 S\u00failleabh\u00e1in  The home heating oil Bill seeks to remove the carbon tax from home heating oil to help households struggling with the ongoing cost-of-living crisis. Fianna F\u00e1il and Fine Gael have not removed a single cent off home heating oil and they and Independent TDs have voted Sinn F\u00e9in down eight times this year as we sought to bring down the price of fuel.  Every week people are faced with rising grocery bills, higher insurance costs, increased household expenses and energy prices far above what families can afford. For those relying on home heating oil, filling the tank has become a huge financial burden. This is particularly true in rural communities in my constituency. I regularly meet people across south Wicklow - from Arklow across to Aughrim and from Redcross down to Carnew. It is the same in north Wexford, from Ballyfad down to Ballindaggan and Killinierin down to Kilmuckridge and everywhere in between. Thousands of households are dependent on home heating oil as the primary source of heating and they do not have the option of switching to a gas network. When oil prices rise, they simply have to pay more or go without. Many families are already making impossible choices \u2013 basically a choice between heating or eating. They must decide between topping up the oil tank, paying for school costs, childcare expenses and weekly grocery bills. Older people living alone, working families on modest incomes and those depending on social welfare are all exposed to the increases. Many pensioners are afraid to turn on the heating as winter approaches.  The purpose of the Bill is very simple. It is to remove the carbon tax element from home heating oil and give families a breathing space. It is a practical targeted measure to protect people from excessive costs and it recognises the reality of rural Ireland. The Government has shot us down eight times this year. Maybe this time it will do the right thing and back our Bill instead of opposing us for the sake of opposing us. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pearse Doherty  I listened to the Minister of State, Deputy Harkin, and I listened to the other Minister of State who came in here. Nobody else from the Government benches had the brass neck to come in and face us down on this issue. Listening to the Minister of State, I wondered what planet she is living on. She said the facts do not lie. Here are some facts for her. The price of a fill of home heating oil has increased by \u20ac700 since the start of this year. Here is another fact. The Government has not reduced the tax by 1 cent to help any one of those families that are pushed to the pin of their collar with the rising costs.  Another fact is that there are hundreds of thousands of families right across this State, from Donegal right down to Cork, and everywhere in between, that are struggling with the cost-of-living crisis. It is not just fuel or home heating oil; it is the price of groceries, rent, insurance and electricity. Life is just bearing down on them and they are finding it really difficult.  I have been in so many homes where people have told me their facts. They have showed me their tanks that are running dry. They have showed me the 5 gallon drums, because that is now how they have to heat their home. They are looking at a Government that has billions of euro of surplus yet it will still not reduce the taxes on home heating oil to help families keep their homes warm this winter. It is a shame on it. The Government is completely detached from where ordinary people are at. The next time they sit around the Cabinet table, every single one of the Ministers, all of whom are in public jobs that are paid by the public purse and all of whom are earning in excess of \u20ac200,000, should think of what it is like to be that mother who cannot fill her oil tank. They should think of what it is like to be that father who cannot afford to put diesel in his car to drive to work without making other sacrifices in his life. That is the Ireland that we are living in today.  This is the eighth time I have brought this legislation before the D\u00e1il since March of this year, because those prices have gone up and up. People need a voice and we in Sinn F\u00e9in will be their voice. We will fight their corner. We will have their back. We are not going to give up until they get what they deserve. What they deserve is a Government that understands the pressure they are under, one that understands they are being ripped off left, right and centre, including by the Government. It was not lost on the woman whose home I went to, whose tank is running dry, that as the price of home heating oil, diesel and petrol goes up the Government takes in more money in tax.  It is shameful that Fianna F\u00e1il, Fine Gael and the Independents will line up again for the eighth time to vote against reducing the cost in order to help people heat their home. The Government has lost touch with the Irish people. The people will rise if the Government does not act, if it does not get this right and understand the pressure people are under. I have no doubt about it. They are at the pin of their collar, at breaking point, and they will rise, just like they did before. I remember the T\u00e1naiste, Deputy Harris, standing over there telling me that we were isolated; that we took the wrong decision; that not one party or Independent voted the same way as Sinn F\u00e9in on the fuel issues. By God we were far from isolated when my colleagues and I were standing with protestors right across this State, who rose up and said they were taking nothing more. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  I thank the Deputy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Pearse Doherty","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","memberCode":"Pearse-Doherty.S.2007-07-23","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Pearse Doherty  There is a saying in Irish which I will finish on \u2013 is maith an rud \u00e9 an eagla. Fear is a great thing. I know the Government fears the risen people. By God if it does not get this right the people will rise again. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Amendment put."},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  In accordance with Standing Order 85(2), the division is postponed until the weekly division time on Wednesday, 23 September 2026. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Home Heating Oil (Emergency Mineral Oil Tax Reduction) Bill 2026: Second Stage [Private Members]"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_18","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":false,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_18","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_19","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Data Centres","counts":{"speechCount":9,"speakerCount":4},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_18","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_18","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_19","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_19.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh  Over the summer the Department published a report prepared by KPMG that set out the economic case for data centres in Ireland. Freedom of information requests made by Lynn Boylan of Sinn F\u00e9in, and I acknowledge all her work in this area, revealed that officials from the Department sought to make amendments to the draft prepared by KPMG in order to cut concerns about the impact of data centre expansion on housing, utilities and farmland. In the interests of transparency will the Minister release the full draft report prepared by KPMG where these concerns have not been removed? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Enterprise, Tourism and Employment (Deputy Peter Burke)  I propose to take Questions Nos. 2 and 3 together.  I thank the Deputies for their questions. I propose to take these two priority questions together as they concern the recently published report, The Value of Data Centres to Ireland, which was prepared independently by KPMG for my Department.  The first issue raised is regarding the publication of draft versions of the report. Officials from my Department and members of the steering group provided comments and feedback on draft versions in line with standard practice for commissioned research. Draft reports are subject to review and refinement to test assumptions, challenge analysis, seek clarification where required and ensure that findings are robustly supported by evidence and clearly presented. In line with standard practice, this is the approach that my Department takes in delivering independent research studies, including, for example, The Sectoral Analysis of Future Hydrogen Demand and End Use in Ireland, An Evaluation of Deadweight in the DETE Economic Appraisal Model (EAM) and An Economic Assessment of Green Energy Park Concepts.  Assertions that the KPMG study on data centres was designed to reach a predetermined conclusion are incorrect. Responsibility for the methodology, analysis and findings contained in the final report rests with KPMG, following its evidence gathering, stakeholder engagement, expert challenge and quality assurance processes. I do not intend to instruct my Department to publish draft versions of the report. Drafts are working documents that form part of an iterative research process and do not represent the considered final views of the authors. Publication of drafts without the context of the review and quality assurance process could create confusion regarding the final conclusions of the study.  I will now turn to the issue raised regarding the economic impact of data centres, the associated energy costs and the scope of the study. The report was commissioned to address a knowledge gap regarding the economic contribution of data centres to Ireland, including their impact on employment, gross value added, tax revenues and wider economic activity. It found that data centres supported an additional 7,636 operational jobs between 2010 and 2024 and are enabling infrastructure supporting significant economic activity in Ireland.  The terms of reference for the study were to determine the economic impact and wider societal benefits arising from existing and planned data centres in Ireland up to 2030 and explore options for the evolution of the data centre landscape beyond 2030 with a view to optimising future economic and societal benefits. While the report was required to consider trade-offs and opportunity costs associated with future data-centre development, it was not commissioned as a comprehensive cost-benefit analysis comparing the economic benefits of data centres with electricity costs, nor was it designed to assess the net economic benefits of data centres against alternative uses of electricity, land, water or infrastructure capacity. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Verona Murphy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Verona-Murphy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Ceann Comhairle  This is a 12-and-a-half minute slot for two questions and each Deputy will have two minutes to speak. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh  People need transparency because they are researching how many data centres are enough and how do we get a sustainable balance. In 2025 data centres consumed 23% of all metered electricity, which was up from a figure of just 5% ten years ago in 2015. This is more than the total metered electricity used by all urban dwellings in 2025, which accounted for just over 18%. All rural dwellings accounted for 9%. At this rate, the electricity usage of data centres will surpass the total used by all homes within a few years. I do not think this is sustainable.  The pressures these data centres are placing on grid capacity cannot be understated. I am sure the Minister for Enterprise, Tourism and Employment can recognise that where grid capacity is unavailable it jeopardises potential investment and job creation in smaller businesses. Delays in securing electricity or water connections mean investment will go elsewhere to competing economies. Businesses need places for their workers to live. If we cannot match this housing demand due to grid constraints we will lose out.  It is vital that decisions on new data centre connections take account of the electricity requirements of housing, businesses, public services and future industrial development in that area. This is why last week my colleague, Deputy Pa Daly, brought forward a Bill that does just this. It prioritises homes and businesses over these energy and water consuming data centres. More data centres mean higher energy bills for households. Earlier this afternoon Lynn Boylan, MEP, and Eve Ryan from Trinity College presented the findings of their research on how data centres impact on the cost of electricity. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Roderic O'Gorman  When the KPMG report on data centres was initially published it raised serious questions around whether a meaningful cost-benefit analysis was being undertaken in relation to the economic impact of data centres, particularly when it coincided so closely with the publication of academic analysis that showed households have seen their energy bills increase by hundreds of euro due to data centre demand driving up wholesale prices. Now it appears, through freedom of information requests, that the conclusions of the report were determined from the beginning and that the rougher edges were shaved off to present a more palatable picture.  The tender document that set out the specifications of the report asked KPMG to assess the challenges and potential disadvantages of further data centre development. The same terms of reference specifically provided the example of rising electricity prices as one such potential challenge, stating there is a potential for increase in electricity prices related to any grid infrastructure developments required to support further data centre development. Why, then, was this analysis absent from the final report? Were the consultants not asked to conduct a full net economic analysis, including the costs as well as the benefits of data centre expansion? Did the Department specifically instruct the consultants not to assess impacts on electricity prices for households and businesses?  Was any assessment carried out by the Department of the opportunity costs of dedicating grid capacity and public infrastructure to data centres rather than housing, transport or industrial development? Why were sustainability targets, which include measurements relating to energy use, water consumption and emissions, not included as core metrics within this report? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Peter Burke  I thank both Deputies for their responses. Critically, as I pointed out in my earlier contribution, our report was not a cost-benefit analysis. It was principally about the added economic value that data centres would bring to the economy, or not. We had a gap in evidence in relation to their economic value. We have a body of evidence from the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment, the CRU, EirGrid and the Environmental Protection Authority, EPA, in relation to grid capacity, electricity demand, emissions and all those areas, and it is intended to offer a view on the economic analysis. There is a gap in this regard, and it is an area where the Government should have impartial evidence to make a determination. It was not, therefore, a cost-benefit analysis.  As I outlined in my opening contribution, in the context of reports that come from the Department, there are steering committees, terms of reference and a responsibility to ensure that reports meet the terms of reference as required by the Department. All the methodology, assumptions and quality assurance have to be stood over by KPMG. That is key.  In relation to demand and competing interests, I am very much aware that there are huge challenges with data centres, particularly in the context of grid capacity. That is why I changed the rules. In the context of our large energy user plan, I said very clearly that any new data centres will need to use 80% renewable energy. That is going to drive forward our renewable energy transition. If we are going to breathe life into the five projects on the east coast, which will produce a total of 5 GW, we are going to need large energy users. Critically, to finance the projects, we are going to need the money and the opportunities that present in this regard, both of which are key. We are also very clear that for the security of the grid, data centres must have 100% of their demand in dispatchable energy generation on site. Again, this builds up resilience in the system. As I have pointed out previously, we have an opportunity to book value for our citizens in energy that is utilised through data centres and to build resilience in the digital economy. I know that there are challenges. We are mitigating those challenges by having a strong policy response. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh  Has a cost-benefit analysis been done in respect of data centres? Perhaps the Minister can answer this question. We need a thorough cost-benefit analysis. It may be that the information is there and I have not seen it. I ask this question because households are footing the bill for network upgrades to increase capacity for the expansion in the number of data centres, effectively subsidising the power supply for some of the most profitable companies in the world. Network charges currently represent 30% of household bills and are set to rise by an average of \u20ac41.25 annually from October. That is not fair. The Government's laissez faire approach cannot continue. Housing, energy security and infrastructure serving the public must be prioritised over the endless number of data centres. How many data centres do we need? How many are we going to have and where are they going to be located? The current arrangement of socialised costs for privatised profits cannot continue. I really think that we need to look at this whole area of data centres, where they are, how many are needed and what the cost-benefit analysis is. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Roderic O'Gorman  Good policy requires that we assess benefits and costs. If the Government is confident in its approach towards data centre expansion, then it should have no need to place its thumb on the scales, as was done in the case of this report. The Minister may disagree with some criticisms of the approach, but many people will think it is reasonable to ask whether a report that was intended to inform public policy should have examined the benefits and the trade-offs associated with further data centre growth.  It is very clear from the terms of reference released that the report had been intended to address these issues. Why, then, were they removed? Given that data centres account for such a huge share of national electricity demand and are already increasing electricity bills, this is not an abstract question. We have had one useful admission from the Minister, who stated that the KPMG report was not commissioned as a comprehensive cost-benefit analysis. Is it not time that the Government commission a comprehensive report on the benefits and costs of data centres? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Peter Burke  That is not an admission; it is a statement of fact, and I am on record as saying that. It is in the programme for Government. There is a comprehensive piece on the economic value of data centres. That is what the research and the report were about.  On increased energy prices, various Deputies quoted reports which state that data centres are responsible for increased energy prices. We saw the report from Friends of the Earth. Notwithstanding that, from 2015 to 2023, we had a war in Ukraine and a huge energy shock, but the report in question blames data centres. We have to ask ourselves whether that is credible. This is the key thing on which people are being misled. Let us look at the contribution to the grid that data centres bring in the context of capital infrastructure and at grid capacity, the temporary emergency generation scheme and the amount that data centres have to pay. If a family is building a new house, there is a charge to be paid to put in an electricity connection. The charges for data centres are multiples of that amount. So they should be, because their infrastructural and capital costs are huge.  Obviously, data centres are buying energy on the wholesale market, which is like comparing apples and oranges. An amount is certainly asked for from them, and that money can drive forward our offshore renewables. This is a question that a lot of people advocating for our offshore renewables are not answering. How are we going to finance them? Are we going to say, for the five projects I mentioned, that we are not going to use that demand here? What about the 9 GW of onshore energy we are looking to bring in and the 8 GW of solar energy? Where are we going to have that energy demand? Are we going to rely on exporting energy to other countries that are increasing their renewables and their own energy independence or are we going to look at the potential of booking that value for Irish citizens?  There will be challenges along the road, and we have to be very careful that we do not get into a situation where there is a trade-off with housing or industry. The Government's new policy manages that quite well because we are driving renewables. We know it is set out in the report that there is a challenge with emissions, about 4%, from data centres right now, but the opportunity costs in bringing fully renewable energy onto the grid are very significant and no one wants to mention that. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Data Centres"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_20","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Aer Lingus","counts":{"speechCount":7,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_18","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_18","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_20","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_20.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh  The Minister of State will recall that Aer Lingus announced substantial job cuts in July affecting hundreds of workers across the country. My office has been contacted by some of those affected workers facing redundancy. They are extremely concerned regarding the transparency of the restructuring at the airline, while others face significant changes to their current working arrangements. Can the Minister of State provide an update on his engagements with Aer Lingus since July concerning these job cuts? Will he outline what steps he is taking to protect jobs and ensure meaningful consultation with workers and their representatives? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment (Deputy Alan Dillon)  I thank the Deputy for her question. My thoughts are with all workers facing potential redundancy. I understand this is a very difficult time for those involved.  Ireland has a robust suite of employment rights legislation in place to protect workers impacted by redundancy. The Redundancy Payments Act 1967, as amended, requires employers to pay a statutory redundancy payment to eligible employees who are being made redundant and have more than two years\u2019 service. The rules governing collective redundancies are set out in the Protection of Employment Act 1977, as amended. The 1977 Act imposes a number of obligations on an employer that proposes a collective redundancy, which arise when certain thresholds are met. These include undertaking a 30-day information and consultation process with the employees\u2019 representatives and notifying the Minister for Enterprise, Tourism and Employment of the proposed redundancies at least 30 days before they take effect. My Department received a notification of proposed collective redundancies from the company concerned on 16 July 2026.  The Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, is the organisation which is mandated to secure compliance with employment rights legislation. Employees have the right to refer complaints to the WRC on a wide range of employment law breaches for adjudication and compensation where appropriate. This includes the right to make a complaint where they believe their employer has failed to fulfil its obligations under the Protection of Employment Act 1977. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh  I do not think that a hands-off approach is going to work in this case. Aer Lingus announced in July, as the Minister of State rightly said, that 500 jobs would be lost at the airline. That would impact pilots, cabin crew and ground staff. The company said this was due to the \u20ac34 million loss reported for the first six months of 2026. Aer Lingus, though, is a very successful company, having recorded operating profits of \u20ac282 million last year.  The company is also expected to make an overall profit in 2026. Its parent company, IAG, enjoyed operating profits of over \u20ac5 billion in 2025. The workers in Dublin, Cork, Shannon and around the country who have contributed to that success deserve every effort to be made to secure their jobs or to protect their livelihoods. I understand that Aer Lingus is a commercial company, but that cannot be the end of the Government's responsibility. The T\u00e1naiste told me on 16 July that he would ask the Minister of State, Deputy Dillon, to come back to me on the Government's engagement with Aer Lingus. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Alan Dillon  As already stated, Ireland has a robust suite of employment law to protect workers who are impacted by this redundancy programme. That includes the right to statutory redundancy payments for eligible employees with more than two years' service. It also includes the right to a 30-day information and consultation process during the collective redundancy process and, indeed, a certain level of minimum notice prior to dismissal. These protections are in place. They are really important. Given the independence of those who manage these through the WRC, they are exercising their statutory function. If there are any issues, they have the right to refer complaints to the WRC on a wide range of employment law breaches. That is the first port of call. We have robust industrial relations mechanisms and it would not be appropriate for me, as Minister of State, to intervene in that process in light of the independence of the entities involved. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh  The Taoiseach told me that the Minister of State would follow up on this. Will the Minister of State confirm that he did so? What engagement has he had since the announcements were made and what concrete commitments have been secured from management? The Minister of State also needs to confirm that he will meet directly with the affected workers and representatives and ensure that Aer Lingus management engages in genuine consultation.  The proposed redundancies at Aer Lingus are causing enormous uncertainty for workers and their families. These are skilled individuals who have contributed enormously to the airline over the years. They deserve transparency, fair treatment and a genuine opportunity to influence decisions affecting their livelihoods. Workers need more than assurances that this is a commercial matter. They need to know what concrete action the Government is taking to protect their jobs and rights. Will the Minister of State meet with the workers, see what the situation is and find out what can be done to protect them and their livelihoods? The Government has a responsibility here, notwithstanding what the Minister of State said about the mechanisms that are in place. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Alan Dillon  I answered that question previously. The legislation sets out clearly the requirements of what the consultation involves. The consultation process includes discussions around avoiding redundancies where possible, reducing the number of redundancies and mitigating the consequences for those affected. Employers are also required to provide employees' representatives with specific information relating to the process of redundancies and to facilitate meaningful engagement and transparency.  Nothing has been communicated to me in regard to intervening. Ultimately, the obligation is that they fulfil their requirements in respect of certain matters. It should not be up to the political system to intervene. Indeed, it is a matter for the independent WRC to conduct its work professionally. That is appropriate in the here and now. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh  I am very disappointed with that answer. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Aer Lingus"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_21","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Cross-Border Co-operation","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_18","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_18","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_21","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_21.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh  The recent IBEC-CBI report identifies serious barriers to all-island labour mobility, including complex tax arrangements, restrictions, hybrid working, incompatible work permit systems and a lack of clear guidance for employers. I thank my colleague the Minister, Dr. Caoimhe Archibald, in Stormont, who has already written to the British Treasury about this and who has discovered that significant progress has been made on the new double taxation convention between the UK and Ireland. I am interested to hear an update from the Minister on these talks. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Peter Burke  IBEC and CBI Northern Ireland's Joint Business Council published the All Island Labour Mobility - Obstacles and Opportunities report in July. The report calls for the establishment of a joint forum to develop a bilateral approach to all-island labour mobility and discusses a range of issues such as taxation arrangements, social security, and mobility for non-Irish or British workers. The Government's Labour Employer Economic Forum, LEEF, which is chaired by the Department of the Taoiseach, is considering this report. This forum, which is attended by all relevant Departments, including the Departments of foreign affairs, Social Protection and Finance, has a shared island working group dedicated to examining issues relevant to economic and labour market policy across the island of Ireland. The LEEF shared island working group commissioned an all-island labour market study in 2024 to examine the condition of the labour market across the island of Ireland. Officials in my Department have been engaging with the State enterprise agencies, the shared island unit in the Department of the Taoiseach and the Department of Finance on the issues highlighted.  My Department has responsibility for economic migration policy and the employment permits legislation, protection of workers' rights in the State, and achieving fair labour standards and freedom of movement across borders for workers are key priorities. Ireland engages with the European Commission, the European Labour Authority and member states with regard to ensuring fair, simple, and effective enforcement of EU rules on labour mobility and social security co-ordination. The Government also engages regularly with its relevant counterparts in Northern Ireland and the UK in order to foster a unified and cohesive response to labour mobility and cross-Border issues. My Department and other Departments will continue to engage on this matter. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh  I am asking the Minister for a timeline for when the recommendations in the report will be implemented. The report rightly addresses the barriers preventing workers and employers from taking full advantage of the all-island labour market. Both organisations involved called for urgent action on hybrid working and taxation and immigration arrangements, including the establishment of the forum, as the Minister said, to develop solutions.  Brexit has led to significant issues for workers in the Six Counties and the wider Border region. The North voted to remain in the EU in 2016, yet, ten years on, we are still dealing with the consequences of that disastrous vote. Eighteen thousand workers face significant obstacles navigating the Border on a daily basis. Cross-Border trade amounts to \u20ac17 billion annually, but the potential for growth is restricted by the availability of labour. Forty-two per cent of IBEC-CBI members sampled said that mobility barriers are making it harder to fill those skill gaps. We need urgency on this. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Peter Burke  I do not have a timeline because LEEF has not yet considered fully the contents of the report and formulated a response. However, I concur with what the Deputy said regarding the all-island economy and the growth in the value of cross-Border trade to \u20ac17 billion. I sense that an opportunity in this regard is being left behind. As a member of LEEF, I know it has been stated previously that taxation issues are causing difficulty in the context of cross-Border work. However, I would point out that LEEF has all the relevant people present to consider this. Obviously, the taxation issue has been highlighted as a fairly significant concern.  As soon as LEEF comes forward with a resolution or a response to the report and a set of actions, which we need, it will help us in developing a bilateral approach to all-island labour mobility. This will be key, particularly in resolving the taxation arrangements as well as those relating to social security, which will be key to help the Department of Social Protection as well. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rose Conway-Walsh","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","memberCode":"Rose-Conway-Walsh.S.2016-04-25","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh  I thank the Minister for that and for the work that is being done. I just think there needs to be an urgency in respect of this matter. I accept that the double taxation convention is primarily a matter for the Department of Finance and the British Treasury. However, the consequences of the barriers extend directly into enterprise and employment policy, recruitment skills shortages and the ability of businesses to operate across the island.  The IBEC-CBI report is not simply a taxation report. It identifies wider barriers affecting the operation of the all-island labour market. I ask that the Minister urgently address the recommendations made within this report. I acknowledge the work that has been done to date, but there is an opportunity cost around all of the delays with regard to sorting this out ten years after Brexit. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Peter Burke  LEEF has a shared island working group dedicated to resolving some of these significant challenges and putting significant capital funding in. However, I concur with the Deputy that we need to make it easier for enterprises to flourish on both sides of the Border and workers will be key. This has been discussed at the LEEF and we are working collectively to formulate a response to the IBEC and Confederation of British Industry, CBI report at the joint business council. I am doing absolutely everything I can to further North-South relations, particularly with the Deputy's colleague, Caoimhe Archibald. The cross-Border work we have been doing in tourism and other areas is quite striking, particularly investing in significant projects that will bring mutual benefit, such as bringing the lakelands of Fermanagh into Ireland's Ancient East, the work on extending the causeway coastal path and the Wild Atlantic Way. There is a huge amount of opportunity in that area. Equally, we have challenges in business which we have to make progress on. I am up for doing so and will raise the Deputy's concerns at the LEEF. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Cross-Border Co-operation"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_22","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Departmental Programmes","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_18","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_18","showAs":"Ceisteanna ar Sonra\u00edodh Uain D\u00f3ibh - Priority Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_22","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Albert Dolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_22.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Albert Dolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Albert Dolan  The western regional enterprise plan has been a successful endeavour. Regional enterprise in the west has continued to go from strength to strength. However, the plan ended in 2024. I accept that it was extended to 2025 for an independent review. However, we are now in September 2026. When will we see a revised, updated and ambitious western regional enterprise plan? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Alan Dillon  I thank the Deputy for his question. Balanced regional development is a Government priority. The Department and its agencies contribute to this agenda in several ways, including through the regional enterprise plans, REPs. The REPs are bottom-up plans, developed and led by regional stakeholders, which focus on collaborative initiatives to strengthen the enterprise environment. Each of the nine REPs was tailored to reflect regional strengths and opportunities and aligned to national enterprise policy priorities such as decarbonisation and digitalisation. The most recent REPs ran from 2022 to the end of 2025, following agreement to extend them by one year to support implementation and to enable consideration of the future of the REPs. The western REP covers the counties of Galway, Mayo and Roscommon and was overseen by a steering committee that included the enterprise agencies, local enterprise offices, LEOs, local authorities, education and training institutions and private industry.  The Department commissioned an independent review of the REP initiative last year. The review included significant engagement with regional stakeholders, analysis of the plans and implementation reports, and consideration of international approaches. It also provided recommendations and options for the future of the REPs. The final progress reports for the latest REPs will be published in the coming weeks and my consideration of these, along with the review\u2019s findings, have informed my decision on the future approach to regional enterprise development.  The approach will align regional enterprise priorities more closely with the regional spatial and economic strategies, RSESs, of the regional assemblies. This will strengthen the links between enterprise development, skills, infrastructure and wider regional planning, supporting a more integrated approach to regional enterprise development. A memorandum on the overall approach was submitted for the information of the Government in June of last year.  My officials are currently working with Departments, agencies and authorities to develop a framework statement to give effect to this approach, whereby any future regional enterprise actions will operate as focused implementation programmes aligned with the RSESs. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Albert Dolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Albert Dolan  I welcome the report and that the plan will be published in the coming weeks. That is a huge step forward and will allow us to take things to the next level in east Galway, the rest of Galway, Mayo and Roscommon. Let us consider the reality of what has been achieved in just the past two years with the Dexcom facility in Athenry. There are more IDA Ireland lands in east Galway from Athenry to Tuam and Loughrea. We want them to be unlocked and brought into use. The one request I have for the Minister of State is that, in advance of publishing the plan, when he reviews the western REP, he pleases ensure he does not hold back on ambition for what could be achieved in the west over the lifetime of the next plan.  With that plan, what will be proposed in terms of new ideas, AI and climate and environment? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Alan Dillon  I thank the Deputy for his support and his ambition for the delivery of enterprise and business solutions to the west, especially Galway. Galway has been one of the major drivers of the success of the regional enterprise plans and the county has benefited significantly from closer collaboration across enterprise, education and innovation sectors. One only needs to look at the likes of the PorterShed, the Atlantic Technological University, ATU, and Platform 94 to see that. The ambition is to continue to support the life sciences sector, medical technology and engineering and for closer alignment between agencies and third level institutions.  We are not standing still. We are currently working on getting the framework right, not simply on replacing the old enterprise plan. Project managers are located in each of the regions. They are now in situ in each of the local authorities are working with the private sector and State agencies to drive the regional enterprise framework statement and continue to deliver across the nine regions. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Albert Dolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Albert Dolan  I welcome that commitment. It is important to say that we in Galway have an ability to deliver life sciences like no other area of the country. It has become what we are known for. Galway is seen as a medical devices and medical technology hub and we should pursue that by continuing to attract more talent from across the globe to that region.  I do not need to explain this to the Minister of State, but none of that can be achieved without the adequate infrastructure. It would be remiss of me not to raise with the Minister of State that he should reach out to Galway County Council and Galway City Council to ensure they try to improve the traffic situation in Galway so all the employers there see the benefit of Government investment in common sense infrastructure that leads to a better quality of life for the people working in those factories. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Alan Dillon  That is a fair point. The new Planning and Development (Amendment) Act, along with the Critical Infrastructure Act will certainly unlock key large-scale infrastructure. There is no better example than the Galway ring road and other key infrastructure that will support the expansion of, not just County Galway, but the west as a whole. That includes the western rail corridor and many other significant strategic projects. Galway has a strong ecosystem, like Mayo, in medical technology and pharmaceuticals and in working with the likes of the enterprise agencies, including IDA Ireland, Enterprise Ireland and the LEOs, we can continue to harness new start-ups. There has been a huge uptake in participants in the new frontiers programme and that has been of huge benefit in collaboration with the University of Galway and ATU. We need to continue to support that pipeline in the various accelerated programmes, which are delivering real jobs in Galway. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Departmental Programmes"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_23","debateType":"questions","bill":null,"showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_23","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jen Cummins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jen Cummins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Jen Cummins)  Question No. 7 is in the name of Deputy O'Dea, but Deputy Dolan is taking it. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_24","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Economic Policy","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_23","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_23","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_24","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Albert Dolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_24.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Albert Dolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Albert Dolan  Last week in Galway, a meeting was held by IBEC with all the Oireachtas representatives from right across the political spectrum with the site leads in Galway and some of the CEOs of the organisations. It was a fruitful meeting. Competitiveness was the lead item on the agenda so I would appreciate an update on the implementation of the action plan. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Alan Dillon  I thank the Deputy for his question. The Action Plan on Competitiveness and Productivity, an item in the programme for Government, was published on 10 September 2025. The action plan reflects a whole-of-government approach to the domestic drivers of competitiveness and focuses on areas that are firmly within national control. Its development was informed by extensive consultation across Departments and with external stakeholders.  Accountability, monitoring and oversight are key to the successful delivery of the actions set out in the action plan. Each of the 85 actions is assigned a specific owner and has a timeline for implementation. Just under half of the actions are due for delivery in 2026. The remaining actions were delivered in 2025 or are scheduled for delivery between 2027 and 2030. The project team is in the process of drafting an update report, which should be published before the end of the year.  Broadly speaking, of the total of 85 actions, 24 actions have been completed, 24 actions are on track for completion within their original timelines and 35 actions are in progress and expected to be delivered as scheduled. The remaining actions are at various stages of development, given differences in the implementation timeline. The most recent updates received demonstrate that the implementation of the plan is progressing as scheduled.  It should also be noted that strong progress has been made in the implementation of the 26 priority actions, with 19 either implemented or on track to be implemented and the remainder being in progress and expected to be delivered on schedule. Key examples include an action to implement the outstanding recommendations from the civil justice review group report, with the general scheme of the civil reform Bill being published in January of this year. The research and development and innovation compass was also published in February of this year as part of an action to encourage the adoption of innovative technologies by the SME sector. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Albert Dolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Albert Dolan  I welcome that the actions are being implemented. I believe the Minister of State said that 24 have been completed to date. That is welcome, but there are 85 actions included in that implementation programme so there is work to be done. I know it is a body of work that will be worth doing.  The companies we met with outlined something to us. From small and medium enterprises right up to the largest of enterprises, when talking about competitiveness, they spoke of a fear about the speed at which Government has brought in changes over the last few years. They said it felt like there was a compounding of costs arising from that. If you speak to those involved in businesses, you hear that revenues remain strong and businesses are performing well but that the margins have gotten tighter. That is where the concern is coming from. Many cost burdens have been placed on businesses over the last few years. Is that going to accelerate or decelerate? Does the Minister of State have a comment on that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Alan Dillon  I thank the Deputy for his response. It is a priority within our Department to focus on enterprise and the small business sector. That is why we established the cost of doing business advisory forum. We published that report last month. It had huge input from regulators, representative bodies, businesses and the private sector. It was broadly well received. It looked at the structural costs within businesses. We need a whole-of-government approach to drive the implementation of those recommendations. Some 63 recommendations were made. The Minister, Deputy Burke, and the Minister of State, Deputy Smyth, are very anxious to drive that agenda and we will. That is alongside the action plan on competitiveness. It is not just about identifying the competitiveness challenges; it is about actively implementing practical measures that will be felt to address them and ensure that Ireland is the best place in the world to do business, to invest and to create jobs. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Albert Dolan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Albert-Dolan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Albert Dolan  One other thing that the Minister of State and all of the Ministers in the Department of enterprise will be aware of is that multinationals and Irish companies that are competing on a global scale are also competing internally. They are competing with sites in the US, sites in Asia and other European sites. We have to be conscious of that internal competition that is taking place. Part of the success story of the med tech and life sciences sector in Galway is the fact that we do research and development really well. If possible, I ask that the research and development tax credit be extended to related costs as part of the budget. It is not just the research and development costs that arise in Galway or in the west that count; it is also all of the related costs that go into making that research and development viable and allowing it to happen. I ask the Minister of State to give consideration to enhancing that tax credit in the budget. I would appreciate any comments he can make without giving away the budget. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Alan Dillon  I take the points the Deputy has raised. In the last budget, we made a decision within our Department and the Minister, Deputy Burke, brought forward an increase in the research and development tax credit, bringing it to 35%. That was broadly welcomed. The industry had campaigned for it. The Minister will bring forward a new life sciences strategy in the coming months. This will focus on our strengths but also try to implement practical measures to continue to make Ireland an attractive place not just for indigenous Irish companies within the life sciences sector but also for continued foreign direct investment, allowing many established companies that have embedded themselves within communities across the country to continue to expand, innovate and create jobs. That is where we are at our best. With the talent we have within our universities and the investment going into skills development, we can continue to support that very important sector. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Economic Policy"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_25","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Enterprise Support Services","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_23","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_23","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_25","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niamh Smyth","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_25.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  I am very supportive of this Government's ambition to grow our indigenous enterprise base. The programme for Government places a very strong emphasis on backing small businesses, scaling indigenous firms and increasing Ireland's export capacity. Will the Minister of State update us as to progress on expanding the mandate of Enterprise Ireland to better support our small businesses? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niamh Smyth","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment (Deputy Niamh Smyth)  I thank Deputy Boland for her very important question. Supporting the growth and internationalisation of small indigenous exporters is a key priority for my Department. Through Enterprise Ireland and the local enterprise office network, whose mandate includes supporting small businesses to develop and grow, our Department provides a continuum of supports to assist businesses at every stage of their export journey.  Our Department's White Paper on enterprise to 2030 sets out a target of 2,000 new exporters by 2030. To help to achieve this objective, Enterprise Ireland established Get Exporting, a new national export accelerator programme, to build ambition, capability and market-entry readiness among potential first-time exporters. Get Exporting provides expert-led workshops, digital resources and one-to-one guidance to develop an actionable export plan for small indigenous companies with little or no export experience or sales. Get Exporting is delivered in partnership with the local enterprise offices, \u00dadar\u00e1s na Gaeltachta and InterTradeIreland, ensuring that companies with export ambitions can avail of consistent and clear support to simplify their export journey regardless of their existing agency relationship.  Enterprise Ireland also offers a range of market access grants to assist companies that are starting out on their export journey. These supports include the digital marketing capability grant, the evolve strategic planning grant, the market discovery fund and the strategic marketing review. Enterprise Ireland works with more than 4,500 Irish companies that are exporting or are in the early stages of their exporting journey. Of these EI client companies, some 3,000 are small businesses with fewer than 50 employees. These companies can benefit from EI's international trade missions, trade event programmes and buyer visits, which are instrumental when growing and scaling internationally. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  I very much welcome the target of 2,000 new exporters. The Minister of State might update us on how much of that might be made up of SMEs or even microbusinesses. I have worked as an SME and I supported SMEs in my own business. Many report a gap between the supports provided by the LEOs and Enterprise Ireland. They are often seen as too small for Enterprise Ireland. We really need to make sure we are supporting all of our businesses right across the sector. For example, an agrifood business in Fingal needs to get supports not only from the LEO or Enterprise Ireland but also from Bord Bia. We need to make sure that these supports are joined up and that we are not asking businesses to complete three different sets of application forms or go through three different channels. We need to help them. They do not have extra capacity to deal with the administrative burden. We need to do everything we can to make it easy for them to access supports and new markets. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niamh Smyth","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Niamh Smyth  I concur with those sentiments. From dealing with businesses, I know that the jump when you go from an LEO to Enterprise Ireland can be a challenge because a business may not meet the criteria. We are looking at all of that within the upcoming budget to see what we can do to make sure our agencies do not allow anyone to fall through the cracks as a result of the criteria businesses must meet when moving from the local enterprise office to Enterprise Ireland.  Enterprise Ireland market advisers provide client companies with access to local market expertise, market intelligence and business connections to support export growth and international expansion. Through this network, companies can receive practical advice on market entry strategies and introductions to potential customers, partners and other key stakeholders in overseas markets. In a similar way, our LEOs, which operate in each of the 31 local authority areas, provide advice, mentoring and financial supports to early-stage exporters through initiatives such as the export business advisers network and the market explorer grant.  The export business advisers assist companies in researching, planning and commencing exports while the market explorer grant supports businesses to investigate and enter new international markets by covering up to 50% of the eligible costs, to a maximum of \u20ac10,000 over an 18-month period. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Grace Boland","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Grace-Boland.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Grace Boland  I thank the Minister of State. I have two quick questions. Are there any plans to develop tailored, specific supports for certain sectors? I think of sectors like food innovation, new methods of construction technology or even medical devices, as we have many medical device companies in Ireland and it is a growing area. In terms of market diversification, with global uncertainty, it is really important that we support our businesses and in particular our SMEs to diversify. What is the plan for diversifying in Europe and outside of Europe? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niamh Smyth","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Niamh Smyth  The point the Deputy raised about supporting businesses so they are not going to three different agencies for the same type of support, and having that co-ordination, goes right back to the ethos of what the Minister, Deputy Burke, has been trying to do on diversification and simplification. For a long time, we know businesses have felt burdened by the bureaucracy that can be involved in going after these grant applications but also who they go to for what. There is a concerted effort being driven by the Minister, Deputy Burke, and through our Department to ensure there is simplification, which is not just an Irish objective. The EU Presidency this year gives us a great platform to drive that right across our 27 member states. That is certainly one of our ambitions as well.  Over the past decade, exports by EI-supported indigenous companies have increased by 94%, reaching a record \u20ac38.86 billion in 2026, an increase of 8% on the previous year. This demonstrates the significant progress being made in developing a resilient and internationally competitive cohort of indigenous exporters, well-positioned to seize new opportunities and navigate an increasingly complex global trading environment. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Enterprise Support Services"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_26","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Tourist Accommodation","counts":{"speechCount":7,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_23","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_23","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_26","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jen Cummins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_26.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  I ask the Minister for an update on any engagement he has had with stakeholders, including hospitality and the local government sector, on the introduction of an accommodation tax or levy. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Peter Burke  I thank the Deputy for the question. The introduction of a visitor accommodation levy was proposed in Foundations for the Future, the report of the Commission on Taxation and Welfare, published in September 2022 and more recently in Capital City, the report of the Dublin City Taskforce, published in October 2024, specifically for Dublin city centre. In the case of the latter, the proposed levy was presented as part of the funding mechanism to support implementation of the actions in the Dublin City Taskforce report. The programme for Government commits to implementing the Dublin City Taskforce recommendations and to apply the task-force model to other cities, towns and regions in need of revitalisation.  The interdepartmental group on the Dublin City Taskforce report, which is led by the Department of the Taoiseach, published its report and accompanying roadmap in June 2025 and these provide a course of action to implement the task force\u2019s recommendations. An oversight board led by the Department of the Taoiseach, with broad representation from across Government, was established to oversee the implementation of the roadmap and associated actions. The board established a financing subgroup to consider and report back on a number of funding mechanisms, including a visitor accommodation levy, to support the implementation of the actions from the Dublin City Taskforce report. I understand that both the oversight board and the financing subgroup have met on a number of occasions throughout 2025 and 2026. To date, a proposal for an accommodation levy has not been submitted to Government for consideration.  Through my regular engagement with industry representatives, the issue of an accommodation tax or levy has arisen periodically. The principal concerns highlighted by stakeholders have centred on its potential impact on visitor numbers and the additional administrative burden that such a measure could place on accommodation providers. Given the significant contribution of inbound tourism to Ireland's economy supporting employment, regional employment and economic activity across both urban and rural communities, any proposal to introduce an accommodation levy would require careful and balanced consideration. This would need to include a comprehensive assessment of its potential implications for Ireland's tourism competitiveness, visitor demand and the long-term sustainability and resilience of the sector. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  I thank the Minister. I agree with his last point. Clearly, it is the case that if we were to ever introduce an accommodation levy, there would have to be a proper examination of the impact on competitiveness. Understandably, on the local authority side and the Dublin side, they are more focused on what the revenue could bring for the city. Perhaps there has not been enough focus on what the impact would be on the sector itself. At any of the engagements I have had with the hotel sector when it hosts its events in Buswells, it is about making clear that any levy would be beneficial to the hotel sector, particularly in Dublin city, which is absolutely booming. There are record levels of investment in the hotel sector. It would have to be beneficial to the visitors who stay in their hotels but generally beneficial to the city.  There are ways to address the administrative issue. In Edinburgh, there was a refund on the percentage of revenue that was being generated that went right back to industry so that the cost was not borne by business. That would be exceptionally important were we to introduce this. The benefits for the city could be quite significant were a tax like this to be introduced. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Peter Burke  I thank the Deputy for his response. I will point out one or two things. From my 13 years of experience in private practice as an accountant and from studying tax, one of the key things I always have in my mind is that I would never introduce a tax when a sector is reducing in numbers. That was the case in 2025. If we remember back to before we brought in our tourism strategy, A New Era for Irish Tourism, visitor numbers and visitor spend were going down and, by default, I would never introduce a tax against that backdrop. In 2026, we have seen a significant increase. Numbers are going up well. We saw 626,000 visitors from foreign countries in July alone. It is up 5% on 2025 and about 3% on 2024. Critically, we will be considering this right across Government but I want to be very clear that at this point in time, we have about 38,000 hotels in planning. For the viability of those to work out and for them to be delivered, we have to be careful about what new taxation measures we bring in. We have to get the backdrop right and, hopefully, with the tourism policy we will keep increasing our numbers at the moment. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jen Cummins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Jen Cummins)  All Ministers and Ministers of States should finish within their time because we have to get to as many questions as possible. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"James Geoghegan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"James-Geoghegan.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy James Geoghegan  I thank the Minister. I take every point he is saying. I am heartened that the strategy the Minister is implementing is working. More visitors are coming to this country. This has to be looked at from a Dublin-centric view, to put it simply. There is a different market in terms of the investment horizon for hotels in Dublin compared to other parts of the country. Obviously, any law made in these Houses that would permit a local authority to introduce an accommodation levy would have to be mindful of every region in the country and ensure there is balance. We would have to ensure that for any local authority that introduces the levy, it would be in an area where tourism is thriving and would not act as a disincentive for the tourism industry. On the revenue side, and what we could do for Dublin city with that level of investment, the implementation of some of those recommendations of the task force would be quite significant. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Peter Burke  I thank the Deputy for his important contribution. I know he was central to the Capital City report and he wants to see investment. I share that vision with him. Local authorities also need to demonstrate responsibility. Many local authorities have revenue raising powers they do not use. Some actually cut funding and shirk their responsibility. The one key thing is I do not want to see a mechanism of taxation being seen as a soft touch to bring forward a funding stream that can be lost. We have to bring forward a body of evidence.  I absolutely share the Deputy's ambition through the report. I am happy that tourism is in a better place so we can consider options like this whereas in 2025, I would have had a very different view on considering them. At least we can move forward and try to achieve the aspirations in the report to have a strong capital city, which is in all our interests. I know the Deputy does so much on driving forward support for the Dublin City Taskforce. Hopefully, we can together ensure it has a viable funding mechanism to grow and breathe life into the recommendations of it. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Question No. 10 taken with Written Answers. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Tourist Accommodation"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_27","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Tourism Industry","counts":{"speechCount":8,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_23","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_23","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_27","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Cahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jen Cummins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niamh Smyth","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_27.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Cahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Cahill  I welcome the opportunity to raise the very real challenges facing our hospitality and tourism sector. I acknowledge the Government's decision to reinstate a 9% VAT rate. I have spoken to businesses in Killarney, Cahersiveen, Killorglin, Dingle, Castleisland and elsewhere in Kerry and I have been told very clearly that the return to 9% has made a considerable difference. It is giving businesses some breathing space. It is helping them manage their costs and plan with greater certainty. However, the 9% VAT rate does not exist in isolation. Businesses are facing an ever-spiralling circle of increasing costs. We have seen increases in labour costs, insurance, energy, fuel and other inputs. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Jen Cummins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Jen-Cummins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Jen Cummins)  The Deputy can come back in. He should allow the Minister of State to reply. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Cahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Cahill  The latest research shows hospitality electricity costs increased by 61.7% between July 2023 and July 2026 while labour costs increased by 15% and insurance by 26.6%. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niamh Smyth","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Niamh Smyth  I thank Deputy Cahill for his really important question on the hospitality sector. As set out in A New Era for Irish Tourism: National Tourism Policy Statement, the Government will continue to take all feasible steps to reduce the administrative burden for SMEs and the costs of compliance. This recognises that many small businesses in the tourism and hospitality sector can face productivity challenges arising from administrative complexity and regulatory requirements that may be time-consuming and costly.  In support of this objective, F\u00e1ilte Ireland will embed better regulation principles and streamline its working practices by reviewing the administrative requirements placed on businesses, employees and consumers. F\u00e1ilte Ireland will also work with other agencies and bodies to advance the simplification agenda across the tourism sector.  Better regulation and simplification are a priority for this Government and one which we have made progress on. Actions taken by our Department include grant simplification, faster approvals, progressing EU regulatory relief, which exempts 80% of small business from the scope of the EU corporate sustainability reporting directive and the expansion of the SME test. We also continue to strongly engage with business on streamlining regulation.  Our national regulatory framework needs to be a focus for the Government as we strive to support competitiveness at a time of international economic uncertainty. The regulatory burden on business was highlighted by the chair of the National Competitiveness and Productivity Council at the annual competitiveness summit on 13 July 2026. The cost of business advisory forum report, published just last month, also highlighted excessive and overly complex reporting and compliance obligations, while analysis from the OECD shows that Ireland scores below average in its ex-post evaluation of primary laws and secondary regulations. My Department will shortly follow up with relevant Departments on progressing implementation of the forum\u2019s recommendations. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Cahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Cahill  The situation with energy is particularly concerning. Figures published today show that wholesale energy electricity prices were 76.9% higher in August than there were a year ago, having increased by almost 10% in August alone. Eurostat data also show that Ireland had the highest non-household electricity prices in the EU in the second half of 2025. I am hearing consequences directly from businesses all over Kerry. I know of one business in Killarney that has reduced its headcount from 125 staff to 105 but is still trying to deliver essentially the same level of output. It is stretching its assets, staff and resources as far as it possibly can simply to keep its head above water. This cannot continue indefinitely.  The Irish Hotels Federation has made the point that tourism and hospitality support approximately 270,000 livelihoods with around 70% of those jobs outside Dublin. These are not just businesses. They are employers, they are part of our towns and villages, and they are a fundamental part of the regional economy. Having delivered the 9% VAT rate, what further steps can the Government take to tackle the wider cost of doing business, particularly energy, labour and insurance costs in order that the benefit of the 9% VAT reduction is not simply swallowed up by increases elsewhere? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niamh Smyth","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Niamh Smyth  The action plan for competitiveness and productivity published last September includes a range of measures to ensure a more effective regulatory system, supporting sustainable economic growth while controlling overall cost levels. This includes a red tape challenge across government to reduce the regulatory and administrative burden for all SMEs, including those in the hospitality sector.  In July, the Taoiseach together with the Minister, Deputy Burke, wrote to all Ministers requesting that each Department, and relevant agencies under their remit, identify actions which can reduce the regulatory and administrative burdens placed on SMEs, which as the Deputy knows, impact their costs.  As part of their considerations, Ministers were asked to take account of recommendations from the cost of business advisory forum report and other feedback from their own stakeholder engagement. This exercise is currently under way and progress will be overseen through the Cabinet committee on the economy, trade and competitiveness. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Michael Cahill","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Michael-Cahill.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Michael Cahill  I welcome the response and I reiterate the appreciation I am hearing from businesses all over Kerry for the restoration of the 9% VAT rate, which has made a considerable difference. However, we need to make sure that our hospitality businesses can continue to employ people, invest, remain competitive and provide the tourism product on which communities such as those across County Kerry depend. The concern is that we are now caught in an ever-spiralling circle of the cost of doing business. VAT comes down but energy goes up. Labour costs increase. The cost of insurance increases. Input costs increase and businesses are forced to try to absorb these increases.  As I mentioned already, one business I have spoken to reduced its workforce from 125 to 105 while still trying to maintain the same level of output. It is stretching every available resource to keep the business viable. The energy figures published today should concern all of us. Wholesale energy electricity prices were 76.9% higher in August than a year ago. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niamh Smyth","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Niamh Smyth  Certainly people in Kerry will not be lost while the Deputy is here to keep the flag flying for them. The Minister, Deputy Burke, has done incredible work on this. As I already said, he and the Taoiseach wrote to all Departments and Government agencies to ensure that they eliminate all unnecessary administrative burdens that hinder enterprise growth. One of the key highlights in that was the grant simplification. The newly established small business unit has reviewed all LEO grant schemes, including a reduction in application questions, down 47% for the business expansion grants, 30% for the green for business grants and 28% for the feasibility grant with further reductions targeted.  Another key piece that the Minister, Deputy Burke, has followed up on is the once-only principle. Work is under way to merge application processes across different grants ensuring businesses only need to provide their data once, which comes back to Deputy Boland's point that we do not have duplication across various grant schemes. Enterprise Ireland has been enabled with achieving faster approvals and a 24-hour turnaround. I can give the Deputy further information to follow up on that. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Question No. 12 taken with Written Answers. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Tourism Industry"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_28","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Job Losses","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_23","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_23","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_28","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_28.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy George Lawlor  I ask the Minister to provide details of the communication he has had to date, if any, with the new owners of Integer Holdings Corporation, which employs 1,100 workers in New Ross, County Wexford; if he can give assurance to all employees that their jobs are secure; the plans the new owners have for the company and if he will undertake to visit New Ross and meet the workers there. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Alan Dillon  I thank the Deputy for his question. He will be aware that in August 2026, KKR announced its intention to acquire Integer Holdings, with the transaction expected to complete later this year. Integer's facility in New Ross is a significant employer in the south east and is an important part of Ireland's internationally recognised medical technologies sector. The company has a long-established presence in the region and continues to make a valuable contribution to the local economy and employment base.  IDA Ireland has confirmed to my Department that it maintains regular and ongoing engagement with Integer, both in Ireland and internationally. Integer New Ross is a valued IDA Ireland client and the agency's medical technologies team continues to engage closely with site leadership in New Ross regarding its ongoing operations, business transformation activities and future development opportunities.  Neither I nor the Minister, Deputy Burke, nor officials in my Department have had direct engagement with KKR on the proposed acquisition. However, IDA Ireland is closely monitoring developments and will continue its proactive engagement with the company as the transaction progresses. As is standard practice, IDA Ireland will remain available to work with both the existing company leadership and any new owners to support investment, innovation, competitiveness and future growth opportunities in Ireland.  As the Deputy will appreciate, questions regarding employment levels, commercial strategy and the future plans of the new owners are ultimately matters for the company itself. It would not be appropriate for me to speculate on operational decisions that have yet to be made or comment on matters that remain the responsibility of the company and its shareholders.  The Government remains firmly committed to supporting enterprise and employment in Wexford and all other regions of the country. Through the IDA's strategy, we have a strong focus on securing further investment and supporting existing client companies across the regions, including the south east. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy George Lawlor  I thank the Minister of State, but I am somewhat disappointed in that response. As a rural-based public representative, Minister and Deputy himself, he can appreciate the impact a factory employing 1,100 workers in a town like New Ross can have not just on the town itself, but on the entire region.  There is a fear the company that has proposed to buy Integer Holdings Corporation for some \u20ac4.9 billion is not in the medical device field. In fact, it is a global investment firm. I believe a pre-emptive strike by the Government to show how seriously it is invested in Integer and its workers is paramount. We cannot say that it is not up to us to make a move in this scenario or area. There are 1,100 workers in New Ross and we need assurances that their employment is secure. We also need to know what this new global investment company's plans are, given it is not a medical device company. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Alan Dillon  I thank the Deputy again for raising this important matter. I appreciate what a valuable employer Integer is with regard to New Ross and the wider region. However, as I said earlier, let us not over speculate the situation. The IDA stands ready to engage with KKR. It is very important we continue our engagement with the senior leadership team at Integer as that acquisition continues in process. We will closely monitor developments and continue to ensure we have proactive engagement with the company as the transaction progresses. I very much hear the Deputy's concerns but, as is standard practice, the IDA is available and flexible and any new owners will be supported on investment and innovation, competitiveness and future growth opportunities. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy George Lawlor  I appreciate the Minister of State's concern and his comment that the Government and IDA stand ready. However, it would not do any harm, given the scale of this company, if the Government was to take the first step and meet with the new ownership to find out what its plans are and how much it is going to invest in New Ross, if anything. What are its plans for this huge employer, which is probably one of the biggest, if not the biggest, in the entire county of Wexford? This is beyond the pale when it comes to the context of investment in a county like Wexford and a town like New Ross. This is a hugely important employer and we really need to be the ones making the approaches to this global investment fund as new owners to ask, \"Are your intentions to remain within the medical device sphere? Are your intentions to invest and continue investing in Integer in New Ross?\" We do not want to wait until such a time as it is making the decisions unilaterally. We need to be there to show it our intent and seriousness. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Alan Dillon  I thank the Deputy for his remarks. I am certainly open, as I am sure the Minister is, to visiting New Ross in the future to engage with existing and future management as part of this operation. Of course, we will continue to engage with our key State agencies, including IDA Ireland and Enterprise Ireland. We will ensure County Wexford continues to be supported. FDI investment has increased by over 15% in the past five years, which shows the level of interest and intent within that region. We will continue to market the IDA business and technology park in Drinagh, as well as Wexford business park in Whitemills. I know Wexford County Council is also related to the advanced planning on the Enniscorthy business and technology park.  We will stand ready to engage at any stage and will ensure IDA Ireland also monitors this transaction as closely as possible. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Job Losses"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_29","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Enterprise Support Services","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_23","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_23","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_29","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sean Fleming","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Fleming.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Fleming.D.1997-06-26","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_29.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sean Fleming","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Fleming.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Fleming.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sean Fleming  Will the Minister to address the lack of IDA-supported jobs in County Laois? There are a lot of jobs in the midlands and over 300,000 IDA-supported jobs throughout Ireland, but only about 150 of those are based in the county. Given the size of the county and its central location, this is totally unsatisfactory and I need the IDA to step up to the plate on this matter. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Peter Burke  I thank the Deputy for his question.  Balanced regional development is a key element of Government's enterprise policy, as set out in the programme for Government and the White Paper on Enterprise, and is a key focus of the work of my Department and our enterprise development agencies. In this regard, the IDA prioritises balanced regional development, recognising the importance of attracting investment to regional areas and supporting employment opportunities across the country. Over the period of its previous strategy between 2021 and 2024, IDA Ireland supported the delivery of 973 investments and the creation of 76,790 jobs, with 54% of these investments secured in regional locations. The midlands region, comprising counties Laois, Longford, Offaly and Westmeath, exceeded its investment target during this period, securing 31 investments against a target of 25.  Under the current strategy, Adapt Intelligently: A Strategy for Sustainable Growth and Innovation 2025-2029, the IDA aims for 550 of 1,000 new investments to be in regional areas, including 40 for the midlands. In 2025, the first year of the strategy, IDA Ireland secured a record 323 investments, a 38% increase on 2024. These investments are expected to create more than 15,300 jobs in the coming years. IDA\u2019s strong regional performance has continued in 2026, with 190 investments approved in the first six months of the year, supporting more than 10,400 job approvals. Regional locations accounted for 52% of investments during this period, in line with our objective. Employment figures for IDA client companies are compiled on an annual basis. As of 2025, the midlands region was home to 51 IDA client companies for 7,501 people. Of those, 156 roles were in Laois, 1,572 were in Longford, 1,299 were in Offaly and 4,474 were in Westmeath. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sean Fleming","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Fleming.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Fleming.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sean Fleming  I thank the Minister for that. He actually proved the case I had to make when he pointed out that one county in the midlands has almost 4,500 IDA-supported jobs, while a county of a similar or larger size has 150. It is by far the lowest figure for any county.  This is IDA policy, and if it is not policy, there is somebody not doing their job. It has decided Laois is okay for some reason. It probably even thinks, \"Sure, Portlaoise is only an hour from Dublin. Let them commute every day to work in Dublin.\" That is not a sustainable solution. More people are coming to build houses in County Laois and we have had a massive increase in population in recent decades, not matched by IDA site visits. I know it has purchased a significant site in Portlaoise, and will spend the next ten years telling us it will develop it and bring in the services, and it will put in lights and roads. It will make another five years out of that, but it is jobs we want. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Peter Burke  As I pointed out, we have an additional land bank in Portlaoise. I assure the Deputy it is not a policy decision, and it has been challenging to get new capital investment. We are seeing around the country that existing sites are sweating their assets. There is a lot of investment in research, development and innovation on current sites, but the new bricks and mortar sites have been very challenging, particularly in the current geopolitical backdrop. However, I will raise the Deputy's concern regarding County Laois with the IDA, which I hear.  Through Enterprise Ireland, about are 2,100 people supported in employment in Laois. Through our LEOs, we are also at a very strong level of 837 jobs supported in 2025. Our enterprise agencies are working hard on the indigenous sector there, albeit the IDA is challenged in getting new capital investment. However, with a new land bank and the working infrastructure attached to it, this will hopefully improve and enhance the value proposition of the area. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sean Fleming","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Se\u00e1n-Fleming.D.1997-06-26","memberCode":"Se\u00e1n-Fleming.D.1997-06-26","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Sean Fleming  I acknowledge the work of Enterprise Ireland and the local employment office in bringing and supporting jobs in native Irish companies but that is happening in every county. I am specifically here to deal with the IDA.  I will ask the Minister to ensure that he contacts the chief executive of the IDA about this, to make sure that he is aware of this conversation. State agencies might not be following what is happening in the D\u00e1il this evening. I do not think there is any other solution but him coming to meet us directly in County Laois. We do not want to hear about developing a site. That will go on forever. We want to hear about real proposals to bring jobs into County Laois. We are as good a county as any other. We are a well-educated county. We have the best of roads and the best of trains to go wherever you want. The location is good. People are moving here, but they are having to commute back every morning to go to work. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Peter Burke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Peter-Burke.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Peter Burke  I hear the strong case that Deputy Fleming is making for County Laois and the road and rail infrastructure it has for connectivity. I have no issue in contacting the IDA again. I know the Deputy has raised this on numerous occasions previously, regarding a meeting with him about County Laois. I assure the Deputy that we will do all we can to seek as many opportunities as possible for Laois in the future. I have to be cautious in saying that I see new capital investments in bricks and mortar as a challenge right now in the environment that we work in. Notwithstanding that, the county has a huge amount to offer, and critically, it has significant assets in its population. We will work with the enterprise agencies, particularly IDA Ireland, to try to drive more visits and more job opportunities, and to ensure that the new land bank, which is the new capital acquisition in Portlaoise, gets a strong value proposition on the register of some exciting new company. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Questions Nos. 15 and 16 taken with Written Answers. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Enterprise Support Services"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_30","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Business Supports","counts":{"speechCount":6,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_23","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_23","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_30","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_30.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy George Lawlor  I ask the Minister about the steps being taken to support Irish enterprises facing rising global cost pressures, supply chain volatility and geopolitical uncertainty, and the specific supports being developed for SMEs to maintain competitiveness in the current economic climate. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Alan Dillon  Ireland remains one of the most competitive economies, ranking seventh in the world competitiveness rankings. However, significant challenges remain. The Government is committed to ensuring that Ireland's strengths are not taken for granted. In recent years, a range of measures have been introduced to support competitiveness and help businesses, particularly our SMEs, to manage rising costs and adapt to changing economic conditions. The key element of this work has been the establishment of the cost of doing business advisory forum and the publication of the action plan on competitiveness and productivity. The forum's report, published in August, contains 63 recommendations aimed at addressing business costs and pressures across areas such as energy, insurance, regulation, planning, financial services and compliance obligations. Recommendations include measures to improve competition in the banking sector, reduce the reporting burden for SMEs and explore options for lower energy costs for business.  The action plan on competitiveness and productivity, published in September 2025, adopts a whole-of-government approach to addressing domestic competitiveness challenges. The plan contains 85 actions, many of which are focused on SME creation and growth. Key measures include the establishment of startup Ireland as a co-ordinated body for the startup ecosystem, the creation of an SME scaling fund to address financial gaps, the Government-wide red tape challenge to reduce regulatory burden, enabling innovation to support SME digitalisation and the adoption of technologies such as AI.  The Government is also focused on strengthening Ireland's resilience in an increasingly uncertain global trading environment. As a small open economy, Ireland is particularly exposed to disruptions in international supply chains and global trade. In response, the Government's action plan on market diversification is supporting businesses to expand in new markets, deepening engagement with existing markets and reducing dependence on any single region. Along with this, the Government is promoting the constant application of the SME test across all Departments to ensure the impact of proposed legislation on SMEs is fully considered. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy George Lawlor  The key to this issue is our indigenous Irish industry. We have seen, particularly in regard to the geopolitical tensions that have been built up through the actions of President Trump in particular, be it through war or through his tariffs that have threatened the whole global economy, that we need to ensure our indigenous industry grows and develops. We need a national competitive package for SMEs. We need targeted energy supports. We also need a temporary working capital scheme for firms hit by supply chain delays or price spikes. We need accelerated capital allowances also, particularly for digitalisation, automation and productivity-enhancing investments. We need to ensure that our indigenous entities and businesses and SMEs are the ones that are our first port of call for supports. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Alan Dillon  I could not agree more. Our small businesses and SMEs are the backbone of the Irish economy. They account for 99% of all job creation in our communities the length and breadth of the country. We recognise that many businesses are feeling significant cost pressures. That is precisely why this Government, the Minister, Deputy Burke, the Minister of State, Deputy Smyth, and I have been proactive in bringing forward the cost of doing business advisory forum, establishing the small business unit within our Department and publishing the action plan on competitiveness and productivity early last year. We have done this in order to drive action and implementation in a structured roadmap, while ensuring that businesses are part of that process. This is about helping Irish businesses to remain resilient and capable of creating and sustaining quality employment. That is really important for Irish indigenous companies. We cannot take that for granted. As a result, we have a strong economy and we have good employment, but we need to continue in that vein. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"George Lawlor","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"George-Lawlor.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy George Lawlor  One thing that we need to focus on is regional resilience measures. For towns like Wexford, New Ross and Rosslare in areas like mine, regional enterprise hubs are vital because they are particularly focused on supply chain and digital adoption. We need localised upskilling programmes, particularly for a county like Wexford in the area of logistics, with the enhancement and development of Rosslare Europort as a port of strategic national importance. We need support for clusters too. In a county like Wexford, these clusters include the agri-tech, med-tech and green industries, which will only grow in future. We also need to ensure that our SMEs have strengthened access to finance and have that ability to grow sustainably. We need to expand the growth and sustainability loan scheme. That would really benefit our SMEs. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Alan Dillon","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Alan-Dillon.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Alan Dillon  I agree with many of the points that the Deputy has raised. Scaling funds are really important. That is why we will bring forward measures to support SMEs and businesses to access finance and capital. Enterprise Ireland is now ramping up the startup Ireland programme. We have invested significantly in recent times in the new frontiers programme, especially in the likes of the south east. We have funded Enterprise Ireland to support local startups and the accelerate programme, which is managed on behalf of Enterprise Ireland in the south east. It is important that we can continue to support new startups and enterprise hubs as indigenous Irish companies are critically important not just because they support foreign direct investment companies, but also because many of them are established outside our main cities and our main hubs. We want to continue to support them, ensure that their export focus can create jobs, and not just in Ireland, and ensure they can expand in the future. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Business Supports"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_31","debateType":"question","bill":null,"showAs":"Business Supports","counts":{"speechCount":17,"speakerCount":4},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_23","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_23","showAs":"Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_31","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niamh Smyth","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sorca Clarke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sorca-Clarke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Sorca-Clarke.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paula Butterly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paula-Butterly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paula-Butterly.D.2024-11-29","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/mul@\/dbsect_31.xml"},"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Matt Carthy  I ask the Minister to outline, further to previous parliamentary questions, the initiatives that he and his Department have taken to encourage prospective new owners to establish a business at the former site of the Bose, subsequently Newbaze, factory in Carrickmacross. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niamh Smyth","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Niamh Smyth  Enterprise Ireland supported the owners of the factory in Carrickmacross over a number of years as they sought to establish themselves as an infant formula and nutritional powders manufacturer. In March 2025, the company informed Enterprise Ireland that the business was no longer viable in Ireland due to inflationary pressures and market conditions.  As a result, the owners of the factory took the decision to sell the plant in Carrickmacross and appointed an Irish agent to support the sale process. They are actively seeking interest from potential purchasers of the facility and discussions have taken place with a number of interested parties. This process remains ongoing, and Enterprise Ireland continues to support the company by facilitating introductions to potential buyers, where appropriate. The Department keeps in regular contact with Enterprise Ireland on this important site, as I do myself, as Deputy Carthy knows.  Enterprise Ireland has had further discussions with both the owners in China and the company representatives at the facility in September and is continuing to liaise closely with the company to support efforts to secure a buyer for the site as a priority. The company has also confirmed that its team is available to facilitate site visits from public representatives if required. My Department remains committed to driving balanced regional development, including the north east. Enterprise Ireland supported 84 companies in Monaghan and 66 companies in Cavan in 2025. These companies are employing over 14,000 people. The north-east regional enterprise plan is focused on delivering a range of collaborative initiatives to strengthen the enterprise environment in the region. More locally, however, this is an issue that is incredibly important to the Deputy, me and everybody else in the local area. We will continue try our very best to find buyers that will bring new business and new employment to the Carrickmacross area. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Matt Carthy  I thank the Minister of State. I am a bit disconcerted. There seems to be a takeover by the wee county, with plenty of Louth heads in the Gallery. They are very welcome.  I am surprised the Minister of State needed the script at all. She should nearly know that off by heart at this stage because that is the exact same answer that has been provided to me in respect of this building for several years. Of course, the only distinction is that in 2025 we finally heard what had been suspected for quite some time, namely, that the Newbaze factory, despite all the fanfare around opening up and providing substantial employment, was not actually going to happen at all. The Minister of State mentioned that there have been prospective new owners. It would be useful if this House could be told how many have been actively engaged with and how many are currently actively engaged with taking over what was the heart of the south Monaghan economy for a long period, which was the Bose factory. It has tragically been left idle for far too long. I do not believe that we have seen the necessary type of urgency that would actually ensure that we find a new owner for that site. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niamh Smyth","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Niamh Smyth  I thank the Deputy. As he knows, we have sat down together and spoken about this and with Enterprise Ireland. It is owned by a private company. Yes, Enterprise Ireland did support and give financial support to the current owners, but it never got up and running, as he knows, in terms of what the original vision had been from the people who own it currently. I consistently keep in close contact with Enterprise Ireland and regularly seek updates. It is a private facility that will be sold privately, but with the support of Enterprise Ireland trying to promote it as a facility with some fantastic facilities in the actual building itself. Carrickmacross, like many other towns, has a talented workforce in the local area. There is a growing population in south Monaghan. Any employment that we can create that will help County Monaghan and east Cavan is important. Newbaze has the potential to do that. Anything I can do to ensure that we can drive that forward and find new prospective buyers for it, I will certainly do that, and the Deputy has my word on it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Matt Carthy  That is all very well and good, but we need to actually see the evidence of it. It is an absolute scandal. If a factory of this prominence was in the centre of Dublin, we would not have the senior Minister refusing to engage on it at all, despite my repeated requests for him to take a hands-on approach. We would not have the same answer regurgitated by Enterprise Ireland time and again, talking about something perhaps happening. It is not good enough for Ministers to say that is Enterprise Ireland's remit. If this factory secures a new owner, the Minister of State would be the first down with the video to commend herself on delivering that. What I am asking for, and what I have been asking for repeatedly, is engagement across all elected representatives from County Monaghan with the Department and to prioritise this issue. The Bose factory site reared more families in my town and surrounding areas than we could even begin to count. The economic impact of its closure has been profound and real. I do not see, and have not seen, the type of urgency that I believe would happen elsewhere if a central economic pillar of a local community was gone that is warranted. I am asking the Minister of State again to prioritise this issue at a Government level and engage with all elected representatives to secure an alternative owner for this site. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niamh Smyth","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Niamh Smyth  The Deputy equally knows my very good colleague, Councillor PJ O'Hanlon in Carrickmacross. As we call him lovingly----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Matt Carthy  Is PJ going to buy it? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niamh Smyth","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Niamh Smyth  He is lovingly known as Mr. Carrickmacross. However, as the Deputy well knows, Councillor O'Hanlon, along with the Deputy and his brother, who is an energetic councillor on the ground there too, are doing everything they possibly can to try. It has to be said that we are doing everything we possibly can. It is not an Enterprise Ireland building or an Enterprise Ireland facility. It is there as a Government agency to try to find the buyer to do that. I assure the Deputy that it is one of our regular conversations. I invite agency staff in on regular opportunities to meet, discuss and look for progress, as well as liaising and working with the county manager in Monaghan County Council. We are looking as far and wide----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Matt Carthy  \"We\", or Enterprise Ireland? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niamh Smyth","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Niamh Smyth  -----and throwing the net for as far and wide as we possibly can to try and ensure this. Ultimately, I want to get new buyers into it. I want to get new employment to the area. Carrickmacross is a growing town----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Matt Carthy  It has been idle for ten years "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Niamh Smyth","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","memberCode":"Niamh-Smyth.D.2016-10-03","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Niamh Smyth  ----- with growing population and there is a talented and skilled workforce there. I want to see that there are new buyers in it. I assure the Deputy of that. I am sure he would be happy to come and cut the ribbon with me. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sorca Clarke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sorca-Clarke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Sorca-Clarke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Sorca Clarke)  That concludes Question Time. Before I move on, I just want to say a special welcome to Deputy Butterly's guests, the Louth women's and ladies GAA team, staff and management. I congratulate them on the semi-final. Have I got that right? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paula Butterly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paula-Butterly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paula-Butterly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paula Butterly  They did not quite get through to the final. The Minister of State, Deputy Dillon's Mayo beat them. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sorca Clarke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sorca-Clarke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Sorca-Clarke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Sorca Clarke)  Well done to them on getting there. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paula Butterly","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paula-Butterly.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paula-Butterly.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paula Butterly  It was a wonderful achievement. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Matt Carthy","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Matt-Carthy.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Matt Carthy  As a Monaghan man, I object to that. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Question No. 18 taken with Written Answers. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Is f\u00e9idir teacht ar Cheisteanna Scr\u00edofa ar www.oireachtas.ie. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":" Written Answers are published on the Oireachtas website. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Business Supports"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_32","debateType":"topical","bill":null,"showAs":"\u00c1bhair Shaincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Matters","counts":{"speechCount":1,"speakerCount":1},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_32","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sorca Clarke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sorca-Clarke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Sorca-Clarke.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Sorca Clarke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Sorca-Clarke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Sorca-Clarke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Sorca Clarke)  I wish to advise the House of the following matters in respect of which notice has been given under Standing Order 39 and the name of the Member in each case:  Deputy John Connolly - To discuss the proposed expansion of the TFI bike rental scheme in Galway city.  Deputy Conor Sheehan - To discuss the funding of CCTV schemes for Limerick city.  Deputy P\u00e1draig O'Sullivan - To discuss lack of resources and staffing issues at Cork University Hospital.  Deputy Tom Brabazon - To discuss the new school building at Gaelchol\u00e1iste Reachrann, Dublin 13.  Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa - To discuss the difficulty in obtaining an involuntary committal for mental health services.  Deputy James O'Connor - To discuss public transport services in the east Cork area.  Deputy Barry Ward - To discuss the omission of a building in D\u00fan Laoghaire from interim remediation for apartments and duplexes.  Deputy Natasha Newsome Drennan - To discuss the failure of Breastcheck to achieve mammogram targets.  Deputies Conor D. McGuinness and David Cullinane - To discuss transport and connectivity in Waterford.  Deputy Shane Moynihan - To discuss provision of reading classes and schools for children with dyslexia and additional literacy needs.  Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh - To discuss the implications for rail connectivity in the north west if planned greenway developments go ahead.  Deputy Rory Hearne - To discuss school places for children with additional needs.  Deputy Paul Lawless - To discuss infrastructure and wastewater issues in County Mayo.  Deputy Louise O'Reilly - To discuss the need for EV charging infrastructure to be located in developments and the need for action where this is provided for in planning but not adhered to.  Deputy Roderic O'Gorman - To discuss the future of the clean export guarantee, CEG, for microgeneration.  Deputy Darren O'Rourke - To discuss the need for reforms of the school meal programme to address the for-profit model and to pilot a not-for-profit community model.  Deputy Thomas Gould - To discuss the imminent closure of Unit 1, Sarsfield Court and the vacant units on the site.  Deputy Gary Gannon - To discuss the development of intergenerational community hubs alongside childcare and services for older people as part of the expansion of public childcare infrastructure.  The matters raised by Deputies Paul Lawless, Barry Ward, Darren O'Rourke, Rory Hearne, Roderic O'Gorman have been selected for discussion "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"\u00c1bhair Shaincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Matters"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_33","debateType":"topical","bill":null,"showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate","counts":{"speechCount":0,"speakerCount":0},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":false,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_33","speakers":[],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_34","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Wastewater Treatment","counts":{"speechCount":9,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_33","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_33","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_34","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Cummins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Cummins.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"John-Cummins.S.2020-03-30","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Lawless  I wish to speak on behalf of the residents and businesses in Newport who have endured the most horrendous situation, where untreated wastewater is being pumped into Clew Bay on a daily basis, yet despite this, the businesses of Newport continue to be billed for charges in relation to wastewater from Uisce \u00c9ireann. Many constituents have asked me how can the State demand payment for a service when the infrastructure underpinning that service is so incredibly inadequate. In fact, it is non-existent.  If a farmer or any other member of society had such blatant disregard and pumped pollution over a fence, they would be fined and they would go to jail for it. This matter has gone on far too long. It is going on for decades, and that is what is happening. Newport is blessed with one of the most beautiful coastlines in the country. It is a beautiful town overlooking Clew Bay, yet there is a bitter irony for the residents who pay wastewater charges. They cannot enjoy the bay or all of the leisure and economic activities that could come with living in such a beautiful area. It is essentially like a publican charging a customer for an empty pint glass. That is what Uisce \u00c9ireann is doing here. It is charging businesses in Newport for wastewater services that are simply not delivered.  I call on the Minister of State to examine the situation and to introduce a temporary reduction or rebate scheme in relation to wastewater charges to residents and the business community until Uisce \u00c9ireann delivers on what is far overdue \u2013 a wastewater system that is capable of dealing with the demands of the town. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Cummins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Cummins.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"John-Cummins.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage (Deputy John Cummins)  I thank the Deputy for raising this important matter in relation to Newport and wider infrastructure and wastewater in County Mayo. At the outset, I advise that Uisce \u00c9ireann has statutory responsibility for all aspects of water services planning, delivery and operation at national, regional and local level. Neither the Minister, Deputy Browne, nor I have operational function in local issues in Mayo to which the Deputy referred.  Both our water and wastewater systems require substantial and sustained investment over a number of investment cycles to bring the system up to the quality and standards required of a modern service to provide for population growth and build resilience in the face of climate change. I acknowledge as a member of Government that we have to sustain the investment we are continuing to put into Uisce \u00c9ireann in this respect. It should also be noted that since the establishment of Uisce \u00c9ireann, significant improvements have been made in the delivery of water services with the help of contractors and subcontractors. Hundreds of water and wastewater treatment plants have been upgraded along with thousands of kilometres of new or rehabilitated water mains installed. The national leakage rate has been reduced and the overall quality of drinking water remains very high in this country.  Uisce \u00c9ireann has steadily grown its capital investment in our water infrastructure, from \u20ac300 million in 2014 to \u20ac1.4 billion as part of budget 2026. This investment will deliver significant improvements in our public water and wastewater services, support improved water supplies right across Ireland, including rural Ireland, and support a range of programmes delivering improved water quality in our rivers, lakes and marine area, making a significant contribution to addressing Ireland's needs.  That being said, I have made inquiries in relation to the items raised by the Deputy. It is worth noting that significant progress is being made on projects across County Mayo with investment of \u20ac114.8 million in water and wastewater infrastructure planned from 2025 to 2029. Works are continuing at Claremorris Wastewater Treatment Plant, where an \u20ac18 million upgrade commenced late last year. An upgrade of Ballyhaunis Wastewater Treatment Plant will provide capacity increase from 4,000 population equivalent, PE, to 6,600 PE. The total estimated cost of that project is \u20ac15 miIlion and Uisce \u00c9ireann plans to commence its construction next year. Two of the largest drinking water infrastructure projects currently being advanced are the Ballina and Lough Talt water supply upgrade and the \u20ac29 million upgrade of the Lough Mask Water Treatment Plant.  Specifically on Newport, the treatment plant is one of the key wastewater projects in the Uisce \u00c9ireann programme. A programme of survey and data collection works are currently under way, which will provide essential information to support technical assessments, environmental evaluations and the preparation of a maritime area consent, MAC, application. Securing this consent is a significant project milestone and must be achieved before a planning application for the proposed wastewater treatment plant can be submitted.  My Fine Gael colleagues in Mayo have engaged extensively with me in relation to the delays in the maritime usage licence, MUL, process. The difficulties have been ironed out in that respect, as the Deputy will be aware, and these have been largely resolved at MARA level. It is the intention that this will be progressed to MAC by the end of this year. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Lawless  My question is a very simple one. It is not whether or not Uisce \u00c9ireann has the authority to issue bills but whether it is fair and proportionate. Does the Government believe it is fair to issue bills for wastewater services to a community that cannot avail of those services and which has been so badly treated in relation to the wastewater treatment plant? This is a community that has been given the runaround for far too long. I have worked on this tirelessly since getting elected in meeting MARA, Uisce \u00c9ireann and politicians, and pushing this. The responses have been unacceptable for far too long with each agency passing the buck to another and each Government politician passing the buck to someone else. That is what has happened here. I very much welcome that there has been movement finally but at the moment there are businesses being charged for wastewater facilities. It is akin to a waste management company collecting your bin, dumping it in the neighbour\u2019s place next door and charging you for it. That is what is happening. Is it fair? Will the Minister of State examine the possibility of a suspension for the businesses affected in Newport? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Cummins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Cummins.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"John-Cummins.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Cummins  It is unacceptable that any wastewater treatment plant in the country is having a negative impact on the environment. That is why we are investing significant sums of money, as I outlined, in County Mayo and right across the country in order to try to address those matters. The Deputy said he has engaged on these items. I can tell him what I have done as Minister of State. I have had a number of engagements with MARA to try to iron out the issues in relation to the MUL system where there were significant backlogs, including the Newport treatment plant MUL applications with MARA. We have ensured that Uisce \u00c9ireann is able to progress its applications in terms of MUL and MAC in a much speedier fashion. That is a really positive thing not just for the Newport wastewater treatment plant but also for wastewater treatment plants right across the country. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Lawless  Will the Minister of State answer the question? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Cummins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Cummins.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"John-Cummins.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Cummins  It is the intention of Uisce \u00c9ireann to ensure it has the MAC application in by the end of quarter 4. It is also important to note that it is simultaneously working on progressing the design in relation to the treatment plant. That is what we want to see as a Government. We want to ensure we have projects that are progressing, not only so that when one stage ends another starts. We want to have simultaneous work ongoing across all of our agencies----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Lawless  The question is on wastewater bills. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Cummins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Cummins.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"John-Cummins.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Cummins  ----because you have to do more than one thing at a time. That is what is happening here with Uisce \u00c9ireann and its ability to be able to progress the design in relation to this project while awaiting and submitting the documentation in relation to the MAC application. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Paul Lawless","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Paul-Lawless.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Paul Lawless  Will the Minister of State answer the question? "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Wastewater Treatment"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_35","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Departmental Schemes","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_33","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_33","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_35","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Ward.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Barry-Ward.S.2020-03-30","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Cummins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Cummins.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"John-Cummins.S.2020-03-30","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Ward.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Barry-Ward.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Ward  I thank the Minister of State for coming in to deal with this issue. He will be aware that his Department put in place a number of years ago an interim remediation scheme for apartment buildings built during a certain period to deal particularly with fire safety issues. This is right and it is important to put it in place. Most importantly it deals with fire issues. There is an urgency that comes with that, which there might not be with poor upkeep or other structural issues. The idea behind the scheme is that residents have some certainty that they can live in a place that is safe, but we know there are several apartment blocks around the country that suffer from problems with the way the fire systems were constructed when they were built and that have to be repaired to ensure the safety of residents. The scheme is good and I welcome it.  The issue I specifically want to address with the Minister of State is that of The Crofton apartments in D\u00fan Laoghaire. It was once an office block and was built as office accommodation but the McGrath Group transformed it into apartments a number of years ago. There are 25 apartments there, duplex and single storey. It is a very nice building, the people who live in it are very nice and they bought their apartments in good faith. Most importantly, when they bought their apartments they were treated as new buys. They paid all the tax and VAT associated with new builds and new apartments.  They were recorded as new dwellings on the property price register, even though the building was a converted office block. Therefore, assuming they are newbuilds, which is how they have been treated, they should qualify for the interim remediation scheme. So the Minister of State's Department thought as well because in 2024, when the owners applied for funding under the interim scheme to change the situation they had with their fire systems, they were granted access to the scheme, yet within two years the Department had written back changing its mind, saying, \"Actually, no, we are cancelling it\". It appears the reason for that is that it was not a newly constructed building, even though the Government took its tax take and took its money from the owners but then, on a different day, told them they were not part of the scheme because the building is not a newbuild, or at least so it appears.  The reality is that in this case, the Government is trying to have its cake and eat it. On the one hand, it takes the tax from them as newbuilds and describes them as newbuilds; on the other hand, when it comes to actually being part of a scheme the Government has rightly put in place to protect exactly this type of building and exactly this type of resident, it tells them they do not qualify. It has to be one or the other. Either the Government gives back the VAT and the tax that these residents paid when they bought their apartments or it admits them into the scheme. It cannot be both. The reality is that the Minister of State's Department initially said they could be in the scheme. It gave them the succour, the confidence and the reassurance that they would be part of the scheme and could access it but now they find they are being excluded from it. It does not make sense. Either they are a newbuild or they are not. If they are not, the Government should give the owners back their money because they paid an awful lot in VAT and tax when they bought their newbuild apartments a number of years ago.  The reality is that there is no clarity in the Minister of State's Department in how it is approaching this particular building, The Crofton apartments, in D\u00fan Laoghaire. It is leaving in the lurch the residents, who through no fault of their own find themselves in a situation where they will have to pay for a remediation that in 2024 was assessed at \u20ac1.1 million for 25 apartments. It is a serious amount of money for each apartment holder but it will be more now because over two years since that assessment was made, you can be absolutely sure that the cost of that remediation has gone up. What really puzzles me is that nothing has changed between the time in May 2024 when the Minister of State's Department said they were part of the scheme, they would get the grant and they would get the support of the Department to help them fix the fire regulation and the fire safety systems in their building and March 2026, when suddenly a U-turn was done by the Department of housing through the Housing Agency, which administers the scheme, and they were told sorry but they were out in the cold, the Department was not going to help them and they would have to sort themselves out. Which is it? Can we give these people a little bit of reassurance that they will be looked after by the State when they have paid all their taxes? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Cummins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Cummins.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"John-Cummins.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Cummins  I thank Deputy Ward for raising this matter and for speaking to me about this item earlier. I know he has also engaged with the Minister, Deputy Browne, on this matter and the concerns it raises for residents and the owner management company of The Crofton apartments, D\u00fan Laoghaire.  As the Deputy will be aware, the Government decision of 18 January 2023 approved the development of supports for the remediation of fire safety, structural safety and water ingress defects in purpose-built apartments, including duplexes, constructed between 1991 and 2013. Drafting of the apartment and duplex defects remediation scheme Bill is well advanced. I expect that the Bill will be published before the end of this year and that the statutory scheme will be in place shortly thereafter. It is envisaged that 100% of eligible remediation costs will be funded.  The interim remediation scheme for the funding of emergency fire safety defect works in apartments and duplexes constructed between 1991 and 2013 opened to applications from owners' management companies in December 2023. The scheme is administered by the Housing Agency on a nationwide basis. The scheme provides for the full funding of interim measures in order to provide an acceptable level of fire safety in buildings, pending completion of the full remedial works. Full remedial works, which will include all necessary fire safety measures, as well as those related to water ingress and structural damage, will be funded under the statutory scheme. The Housing Agency has committed its knowledge and resources to helping to design and now operate this scheme. Its experience of dealing with, for example, the pyrite remediation scheme and the enhanced defective concrete blocks scheme has been particularly useful in this regard. The scheme is shaped following a significant period of consultation with homeowner representatives. Their insights have been an essential element that has allowed my Department, the Housing Agency and local authority fire services to put together this scheme.  Appropriate pathfinder projects within the scheme were identified in April 2024. These pathfinder projects have allowed the mapping of the application and remediation process into simple steps, to identify pinch points and their solutions and to provide consistency across submissions and related workings. Three of the pathfinder projects are situated in the Dublin area, involving three local authorities, and one in Kildare. These projects vary in size and complexity and provide valuable insights for both this interim and the forthcoming statutory scheme.  As of the end of August 2026, 293 applications to the scheme have been validated, having met the required eligibility criteria. These applications represent over 25,000 residential units, with circa 75% in the Dublin region. Of the 293 validated applications, 151 to date have provided documentary evidence confirming the key eligibility requirements.  During the validation process, the Housing Agency established that The Crofton building was originally constructed as an office and was subsequently converted to residential use. This raised a question as to whether it falls within the scope of the scheme, which is intended for purpose-built apartment and duplex developments.  All applications received by the Housing Agency remain subject to verification and validation and their status can change as ongoing data cleansing and due diligence are completed. While this application initially progressed through the process, that did not represent a final determination of eligibility. Eligibility is determined with reference to the scope of the scheme as approved by the Government.  I recognise, however, that developments which were lawfully converted to residential use raise broader policy and equity considerations in the context of apartment defects remediation and the safety and well-being of residents. I have asked my Department officials to examine such developments in the context of their current work in devising this scheme. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Barry Ward","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Barry-Ward.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"Barry-Ward.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Barry Ward  I really appreciate what the Minister of State said at the end of the answer. I appreciate his positive engagement on this. As he says, we had a conversation about this earlier today. I appreciate his undertaking to raise this with the officials because there is a gap, in fairness, in this situation. I understand what he has said about the validation process but he has to remember that these people, through their OMC, wrote in, applied for the scheme and were told yes. It took nearly two years before the Housing Agency turned around and said, \"Actually, no\". There is a terrible unfairness for them there whereby they find themselves initially satisfied that they will be covered and that the State has their back in terms of this remediation and then being told the rug has essentially been pulled from under their feet. Maybe that is a bureaucratic situation that is beyond help but the reality is that the finalisation of this scheme is not beyond help. The legislation has not passed yet. There is an opportunity for the Minister of State and his officials in respect of this type of building, which, as he notes himself in the response, was legitimately, properly and validly transformed from an office block into residential apartments, and with the bona fides of the people who bought those apartments. They paid the full whack of tax as if they were buying a newbuild apartment, and the units are recorded as such on the residential property price register. Whatever you think about the scheme, they must be included in it. If it is the case that the scheme, as currently drafted and operating on an interim basis, does not cover them, let us change it.  I would be very grateful if the Minister of State would assure me that this will be considered for change in the scheme. The owners have written to the Minister's office and sent him statements and briefs about what has happened here but they have not heard back from him yet. I would also be grateful if the Minister of State could commit that they will get an answer and get some succour, some reassurance, from his Department and from the Housing Agency that they will not be left in the lurch, that they will not fall between stools and that, as taxpayers who bought apartments in good faith, they will be supported by the State, as any other owner of a newbuild apartment would have been. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"John Cummins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/John-Cummins.S.2020-03-30","memberCode":"John-Cummins.S.2020-03-30","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy John Cummins  As Deputy Ward will appreciate, I cannot give a blanket commitment on the floor of the D\u00e1il this evening, but I can give a commitment to engaging with officials in the broader context of the policy issues that have arisen as a result of the Deputy's raising this item with both the Minister, Deputy Browne, and me and in putting this Topical Issue before the D\u00e1il this evening. I thank him for doing that.  It is important to note the significant scale of the remediation scheme, which will be underpinned by legislation, and which is expected to be in the order of between \u20ac1.5 billion and \u20ac2.5 billion. The Minister, Deputy O'Brien, set up the working group to examine this in 2022. When it reported, it estimated that between 50% and 80% of apartments and duplexes that were constructed between 1991 and 2013 may be affected by one or more of the following: fire safety, structural safety and water ingress defects.  It is a significant scheme. Those pathfinder projects have been in place. We are trying to shape a scheme that will operate and will be as smooth as possible. However, as the Deputy will appreciate this is a complex area. Not every owner-management company is equal and there are challenges in that space. On foot of the Deputy raising this matter I will speak to the Minister, Deputy Browne, in the context of the broader policy considerations that it raises. Obviously, the intention is for purpose-built apartments and duplex developments. I do not know how many other potential sites could come into the scope that are similar to the Crofton building in D\u00fan Laoghaire, but we will examine that. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Departmental Schemes"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_36","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"School Meals Programme","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_33","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_33","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_36","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darren O'Rourke  I thank the senior Minister for being here at this hour to take this. This issue is both topical and important. The school meals programme is one of the most important investments the State makes in children. At \u20ac300 million per year, it touches nearly every primary school in the State. Given that the Government's own review revealed that it is falling short, we cannot simply tinker around the edges. The research published yesterday was clear and indicative. The Department of Health's nutritionist found that just 7% of meals met all five basic nutrition standards, and that is not a high bar. Half of all meals contain no fruit or vegetable. Despite the Minister announcing an outright ban on high-fat, high-salt and high-sugar foods in April 2025, 15% of meals still contain them and they are the meals children order and eat most.  We know that 100,000 hot meals per day are going uneaten and the top reason is meal dissatisfaction. Some 87% of teachers say that is why children do not finish their food. The Ipsos survey revealed that just 21% of children eat all of their meal. On waste, one 390-pupil school in Galway estimates 10 tonnes of food waste per year, which is the weight of a small school bus. Across the State, this model could generate 100 million single-use packs annually. Why is this happening? I strongly contend that a large part of the reason is the design of the system and the for-profit model that dominates the scheme. Some 99% of contracts go to the for-profit providers. The largest supplier has more than 600 schools. The next two largest suppliers have in excess of 400 schools. We saw what happened last year when two major suppliers withdrew from 79 mostly small rural schools without notice. The pursuit of profit means quality is squeezed, choice is unlimited but nutritionally hollow, and service is not guaranteed. Children can order chicken goujons every single day of the week or plain pasta every day. This is not a school meals programme. It is a race to the bottom. However, there is a better way, and we do not have to look far to find it. In Duhallow, County Cork, for example, a community-owned not-for-profit food service is delivering 3,000 meals per day to 30 schools. They cook from scratch using fresh, local ingredients, 75% of their ingredients are Irish and 40% come from within the surrounding region. They deliver hot food within 26 minutes. Their waste rate is 1.2% and not 19%. Closer to home for me in Drogheda is St. John's and St. Paul's junior and senior primary schools, which use fresh, local food from local suppliers to feed their approximately 1,000 students daily, employing 31 people. They have been doing it since the 1980s with their breakfast club. This is the power of the community-led model.  We appreciate the hot school meals programme. It is a significant intervention. We support the principle of universality. I say to the Minister that there is a massive opportunity to do much more with it. Both Sinn F\u00e9in and I are making the case that we would take this opportunity to pilot those community-led approaches. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister for Social Protection (Deputy Dara Calleary)  Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an Teachta O'Rourke as ucht an t-\u00e1bhar sin a ard\u00fa. As he has said, the school meals programme is important. That sometimes gets lost from people who maybe think they do not need it, but it is needed in all of the schools. It was rolled out quickly in the context of moving from a pilot programme in 2019 to 3,200 schools in September 2025. I know Deputy O'Rourke looked at some of the more negative responses, but the survey also found that 85% of children liked their lunch, 81% of parents reported their child avails of the scheme and 63% of teachers and principals believe it had a generally positive aspect. Since we introduced the ban on foods high in salt, fat or sugar we have 82% of meals being served. The Deputy is right that we need to get that to 100%.  Some 3,200 primary schools with 555,000 children are eligible for hot school meals, and the budget for 2026 is \u20ac286 million. All schools, as the independent contracting authorities, are responsible for choosing their school meal supplier on the open market in a fair and transparent manner in accordance with public procurement rules. The Department of Education and Youth schools procurement unit provides the guidance to schools for all procurement, including this programme. These rules clearly define the successful tenders\u2019 responsibilities and obligations, including adherence to nutritional standards. The primary relationship is between the school and the supplier. I put on record my thanks to school communities and school leadership across the country who are investing enormous time in this. The school meals programme is supported by approximately 300 suppliers, the majority of whom serve between one and three large schools. Providers range from the large national companies, to which Deputy O'Rourke has referred, to local restaurants, food outlets, meals-on-wheels services, social enterprises and the community organisations he has mentioned.  One of the recommendations in the nutrition review report is that food catering systems will be reviewed to see which system meets the nutrition standards we want in a consistent manner. My preferred approach is to have as many local suppliers involved as possible. For instance, there are 11 meals-on-wheels organisations supplying 40 schools. The Deputy's colleague, Deputy Louise O'Reilly, has really pioneered that particular model and the Duhallow model is an example of best practice. The mix of suppliers is helping us to deliver hot school meals to more than 3,200 primary schools every day. That gives an indication of the scale of the operation required five days per week. I absolutely believe that community organisations can play an important part in that, and they already do. The two independent studies the Deputy referred to have been commissioned and published. I acknowledge the work of the Oireachtas joint committee on education for its work earlier in the year, and our colleagues in the Departments of Health and education for their assistance. The nutritional review has found a wide variety of healthy meals on offer, and the accompanying Ipsos survey has found 85% of children like their lunch, 81% of parents report that their children avail of the scheme and 63% of teachers believe it has a generally positive impact.  There are absolutely improvements required. That is where we are now focused on the increased provision of vegetables, fruits, salad and wholegrain foods; improving menu consistency; providing age-appropriate portion sizes that will help to address the waste issue; and strengthening compliance systems. The review has recommended a number of areas, and we are progressing to the implementation phase in partnership with school communities, the Department of Health - we will continue to have our dietitian on board - and food producers around the country. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Darren O'Rourke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Darren-O'Rourke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Darren O'Rourke  I appreciate the Minister's comments on his own preference for multiple providers. It is important to expand upon that. I referenced Duhallow. The Minister is aware the education committee has spent a lot of time on this. We have previously discussed this ourselves during Oral Questions. I have talked about Duhallow and St. John's and St. Paul's in Drogheda. This is not a niche experiment. It is a proven, viable, replicable model. In Finland, 850,000 meals a day are served through a community-led model. In Copenhagen, almost 90% of school food is organic, and its food schools show positive impacts on well-being from dietary diversity. It is the same in Milan and in France. There is really good research from the Trinity Business School and Food Policy Ireland making clear that the community model of school food provision can be socially, economically, and environmentally beneficial and resilient and that it supports local economies. In his follow-up contribution will the Minister expand on that point in terms of whether there is an opportunity now to look at meals on wheels, the community-led sector and the not-for-profit sector, what is working well, and how we can maybe grow that sector or share of the market, for want of a better term?  I have a request for the Minister. I spoke to the principal at St. Paul's in Drogheda. There is an open invite to him to go to see their system operating. As I said, it is absolutely wonderful. It has been funded by the Department since the 1980s. It is incredible what the people are doing there, and they would love to welcome him to Drogheda. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Dara Calleary","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","memberCode":"Dara-Calleary.D.2007-06-14","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Dara Calleary  I thank the Deputy. I have an invitation to go up there and I will go. It is important. School meals have been provided in a lot of communities for a long time and we have just ramped up the system. It is also important to note that the debate is often presented as a choice between commercial and not-for-profit community providers. Community involvement is possible within the existing programme and we can work with not-for-profit community organisations, charities, social enterprises and Meals on Wheels.  I would also include community-based for-profit companies as well. They are providing a very important service. Flexibility is the strength of the current programme. Schools can choose from a variety of delivery arrangements that best suit the particular school circumstances, including contracting or commercial suppliers, not-for-profits and social enterprises. Local catering providers are preparing meals on site in those schools where the facilities exist. My Department is saying to schools that they can procure their school meal from any registered food business provider as long as they meet the standards set out in the standard procurement documentation.  The findings of the nutrition review align very closely with those in the independent Ipsos Behaviour and Attitudes evaluation. And as I said, the report indicates a generally very high standard of food provision and a high level of satisfaction, but there is work to do. Through engagement with school communities, suppliers, and our colleagues in the Department of Health, we will achieve progress on that matter in terms of nutritional review, nutritional standards, proteins, vegetables, fruit, and also the provision of different models.  Duhallow is a super model. There are other models similar to it. There is no point in us having the views of 88,000 parents, 7,000 children and school communities all over the country unless we do something about them. I again acknowledge the role of the Oireachtas education committee. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"School Meals Programme"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_37","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Special Educational Needs","counts":{"speechCount":4,"speakerCount":2},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_33","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_33","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_37","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Rory Hearne  I am disappointed the Minister could not be here to take the matter but I appreciate that the Minister of State, Deputy Harkin, is. I want to raise the case of a child with additional needs in my constituency who, almost a month into the school year when other children are in school - almost four weeks now - still does not have an appropriate school place. I also want to raise the issue of promised schools still not delivered completely, notably Finglas Parochial National School, where children are still at home waiting to get their school places and issues increasingly faced that parents have raised with me where children with additional needs are on reduced school hours, which is not an adequate school place.  I raised the case of Roman Slator with the Minister of State with responsibility for special education two weeks ago. As I said, most children are into their fourth week of school, but five-year-old Roman from Finglas still has no school place. Roman has been diagnosed with autism and a global developmental delay. Roman and his mother have been scandalously failed by this Government and by the Department of Education and Youth. Jade, his mother, has had to work night and day alongside her actual employment to try and get Roman a school place, contacting school after school and the NCSE, but to no avail. The lack of a school place for Roman is taking a massive and extremely worrying toll on her and her family. Jade said to me:  I feel it's very important to highlight the effect this has on my life, my family, my mental health. I spend my days constantly emailing, constantly calling, following up, chasing schools, contacting principals, local TDs, having to go the legal route when I am a single mother with two children, one who is autistic and has no school place and another who has just started secondary school.  She is upset all the time, she is stretched thin. This mother is being pushed to the edge, she is actually at breaking point as a result of the failure of the State to provide an appropriate school place for her child. She has had to reduce her work and she is now forced to decide each week which bill will not be paid as she tries to mind her child at home. Her employer has been extremely understanding so far but time is running out for her. Jade asked me to ask the Minister if she has any idea of the effect this has on parents of children with additional needs. She contacted one local school which said it could offer a place in a mainstream class if it was guaranteed resources from the NCSE. Then the NCSE said that it would not provide any guarantee of resources and would review potential resources when the school provides a place for Roman and that it would assess if resources are needed. This is utterly scandalous. As Jade says:  This is a total lack of respect for my Roman, his diagnosis, his education requirements, my family and me. The department and the NCSE won't give the funding for an SNA, so clearly the most vulnerable children, children with disabilities, are being left at home rather than paying for an SNA.  She describes it as more being like special educational needs lettown at this point. She is extremely concerned about Roman's regression, his lack of supports in terms of education and also the lack of social aspect of a school placement. It really is scandalous that this child is left in this situation. I am extremely worried about his mother and the impact on her and the family. This raises the issue of parents having to reduce work hours and the stress that is on them to make up for the State's failure to provide an appropriate education and support to children with additional needs, which it is responsible for. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Minister of State at the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science (Deputy Marian Harkin)  I thank the Deputy. I hear his real concern for his constituent's child and the difficult circumstances in which they find themselves. I have a response here, some of which deals with the issue he raised and some of which is a more general response on what the Government is doing. If he will bear with me, I will give him both.  The Government is committed to the provision of additional special places for children with special educational needs. Budget 2026 has already provided funding for over 400 new special classes and at least 400 new special school places for the 2026-27 school year. It was intended that this would create almost 3,000 new special educational placements for December 2026. In total, there will be over 4,300 special classes operating in mainstream schools next year, an increase of 130% since 2020. In County Dublin, 845 special classes are now in operation, providing capacity for over 5,000 students, and this includes 140 new special classes for the 2026-2027 year.  In addition, 20 new special schools have been established in recent years. Special school capacity has also been expanded across a number of special schools nationwide. A total of 44 of these special schools are in County Dublin, educating approximately 2,700 students with the most complex of special educational needs. These schools are supported by the Department and the NCSE.  As Deputy Hearne is aware, an earlier notification deadline was introduced this year to support forward planning and to earlier equip - and I presume better equip - the NCSE with local information as to what students would be leaving school, transitioning to post-primary specialist places, seeking specialist placement or entering the education system for the first time. This information is critical when examining where provision needs to be placed to meet demand.  The NCSE began sanctioning new special classes earlier this year, which is several months earlier than last year. A total of 587 have been sanctioned for the school year 2026-2027. The earlier sanctioning of new classes provides clarity for parents and allows schools more time for the planning and establishment of new special classes. In regard to the specific matter raised by Deputy Hearne on the modular project for Finglas Parochial National School, the modular building is installed on site. Internal fitting-out works are nearing completion and external works, including soft play works, are taking place in parallel. The project will be completed soon. The assigned project managers are keeping the school authority updated regularly as the project progresses to near completion. This project required planning permission, which was granted on 25 March this year. The Department and its project manager have been working to ensure the project gets delivered as quickly as possible. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Rory Hearne","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Rory-Hearne.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Rory Hearne  I reiterate that it is important that the project is delivered for Finglas Parochial National School as soon as possible. I really do think the parents deserve a very clear date as to when that will happen. My understanding is that it was committed to be delivered in September and we are getting very close to the end of September. It really should be in place.  I want to go back to the specific case I raised, which I also raised with the Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan. I am really disappointed with the Minister of State's response, which is absolutely inadequate. There is a child who does not have a school place. This is a child with autism who, as I very clearly outlined, has a need which has been identified. His mother is at breaking point. As the Minister of State has set out, the NCSE and the Department are turning to the 2027-2028 school year but children do not have a place in this current school year. This is absolutely unacceptable. What this mother is being put through is wrong.  It is deeply disappointing that the Minister of State with responsibility is not here and has not provided a satisfactory reply. I really do want a commitment from the Minister of State with responsibility that Roman will be in school within a week and will have a school place. I do not feel it is acceptable that any child is going into October without a school place or any prospect of a school place. It is absolutely wrong and I really think the Minister should accept this situation as being an absolutely dire emergency and act accordingly. I ask the Minister of State to bring this back and raise the issue. I do want answers because it is not clear with regard to children who are on reduced school hours and what they need to ensure they and their parents have adequate supports. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Marian Harkin  I thank Deputy Hearne. Again, I do hear what he is saying and I will bring his very strong concerns to the Minister of State. I will see that they are on his desk by tomorrow and we will see where we go from there.  Deputy Hearne mentioned Finglas Parochial National School. To be fair, given that planning permission was granted on 26 March 2026, the fact that the Department and the project manager have been doing everything to complete all of the works, and that they will be delivered as quickly as possible, is reasonable progress to say the least. I cannot give Deputy Hearne a date as I do not have one but it does state the project will be completed soon. \"Soon\" has a meaning and I hope this is the case.  In regard to the overall perspective, by the end of 2026-2027 there will be more than 15,200 special education teachers, with more than 26,000 special needs assistants, in our mainstream classes, special classes and special schools. This will mean that we will have over 46,000 teachers and SNAs working in our education system, committed to supporting and nurturing students with special educational needs, enabling them to achieve their best outcomes and reach their full potential. For children with more complex needs, special classes or special school places are provided and this is in keeping with the policy of an inclusive education which promotes that children will be supported to receive an education in the most inclusive setting possible. The NCSE remains available to provide advice and support to all families seeking specialist placement and will continue to examine where provision is required in the 2026-2027 school year. As I said at the beginning, I will ensure this request is on the Minister of State's desk tomorrow. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Special Educational Needs"}]}},{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_38","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Renewable Energy Generation","counts":{"speechCount":5,"speakerCount":3},"parentDebateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/dail\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_33","formats":{"pdf":null,"xml":null},"debateSectionId":"dbsect_33","showAs":"Saincheisteanna Tr\u00e1th\u00fala - Topical Issue Debate"},"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_38","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Roderic O'Gorman  I wish to raise an issue which I know is causing concern for the thousands of households across Ireland that have invested in solar panels and have embraced the transition to clean energy. Recent media reports have suggested the clean export guarantee, the payment introduced by the Green Party and received by households for excess renewable energy exported back to the grid, could be weakened, reduced or ultimately phased out entirely in the years ahead.  The clean export guarantee recognises a really simple principle, which is that if households export clean electricity to the grid that electricity has a value and households should be paid fairly for it. Over the past number of years families right across the country have made significant investments in rooftop solar. Many did so because they wanted to reduce their carbon footprint. Many more did so because they wanted to reduce their electricity bills and play an active role in Ireland's transition to clean energy. These households have responded to Government policy. They have responded to national climate objectives. They invested what was often thousands of their own money, often alongside SEAI supports, on the understanding there would be a fair and stable framework for microgeneration. Government policy went even further in encouraging those households. When in government the Green Party encouraged another initiative, the tax exemption for microgeneration of electricity, which is currently valued at \u20ac400 per year.  Any change to the rules after people have made this investment would send entirely the wrong signal. It would undermine people's confidence in microgeneration going forward. At a time when we need significantly greater development of rooftop solar, community energy generation and distributed renewable generation, the last thing we should be doing is causing uncertainty. Every unit of electricity exported by a household solar installation reduces demand for fossil fuel generation, contributes to energy security and supports our climate targets.  I believe the existence of the feed-in tariff acts as a real incentive to people looking to install solar. It gives greater security to people making an upfront payment on panels that investment they are making in clean energy is the right one. The electricity exported from a family home does not suddenly become worthless because it is generated on a rooftop panel rather than in a large-scale facility. Suppliers benefit from this electricity and the wider system benefits from it, and consumers who invest in generation infrastructure should receive an equitable return.  I would like confirmation from the Minister of State this evening that there are no plans to wind down the clean export guarantee payment in the coming months and years and that the Government will retain its commitment to it going forward.  To provide greater clarity and reassurance to households that undertake microgeneration, can the Minister of State confirm that the tax exemption for the microgeneration of electricity, currently valued at \u20ac400 per year, will be maintained as part of budget 2027? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Marian Harkin  The microgeneration support scheme, MSS, provides supports to both domestic and non-domestic applicants, in the form of grants for solar PV installations, up to a maximum of \u20ac1,800 in 2026 for household installations. The domestic MSS forms part of a wider residential retrofit programme that, in line with eligibility criteria, supports energy-efficiency upgrades and the installation of renewable energy technologies in existing housing stock.  Since its pilot launch in 2018, the domestic solar PV scheme has gone from strength to strength, with over 123,000 homes being supported. Budget 2026 allocated over \u20ac67 million to this year\u2019s scheme. So far this year, over 21,000 homes have been supported. This high level of demand indicates that the scheme is working well and that not only have citizens recognised the significant benefits of investing in solar PV, but that the solar PV industry and supply chain have adapted to the demands of our citizens. The scheme is kept under review to ensure it is operating effectively and making the best use of Exchequer funding.  The electricity and gas retail markets in Ireland operate within a European Union regulatory regime wherein electricity and gas markets are commercial, liberalised and competitive. Operating within this overall EU framework, responsibility for the regulation of the electricity and gas markets, including with regard to the clean export guarantee, CEG, is solely a matter for the Commission for Regulation of Utilities, CRU, which was assigned responsibility for the regulation of the Irish electricity and gas markets following the enactment of the Electricity Regulation Act 1999. In line with long-standing policy on deregulating price setting, the CRU ended its regulation of retail prices in the electricity market in 2011, which was 15 years ago, and in the gas market in 2014, which was 12 years ago. Price-setting by electricity suppliers, including remuneration for microgeneration, is a commercial and operational matter for the companies concerned.  The Commission for Regulation of Utilities, CRU, published a decision on an interim enabling framework for the CEG on 1 December 2021. This decision outlined the interim arrangements for the implementation of the CEG, including eligibility criteria and remuneration methodology, in line with the requirements of Article 21(2)(d) of the recast renewable energy directive, RED II.  The CRU subsequently published a consultation paper in September 2023 with proposals to update the interim CEG arrangements. In June 2024, the CRU published its decision paper entitled Clean Export Guarantee: Enduring Arrangements to Remunerate Customers for Microgeneration Exports. That paper sets out changes to the interim arrangements that were in place for microgeneration. That decision includes improvements in the level of service for customers with microgeneration, such as: more regular payments to customers for the electricity they export to the grid; clearer information from suppliers on the details of the payments that customers receive for the electricity they export to the grid; and that suppliers will have clear information on their websites about their export tariffs.  In relation to the development of tariffs under the interim CEG arrangements, the CRU set out in its decision paper of June 2024 that it is of the view that the competitive approach, whereby suppliers set their own competitive export tariffs, has functioned well and will continue. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Roderic O'Gorman","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Roderic-O'Gorman.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Roderic O'Gorman  Gabhaim bu\u00edochas leis an Aire St\u00e1it. I am not sure if the response from the Department is going to give a huge amount of reassurance. Ireland's energy transition depends on public participation and the success of microgeneration has shown that people are willing to invest their own resources to support climate action when the policy framework is clear and fair. Many people have pointed out their concerns at the pace at which their feed-in tariff is diminishing at exactly the time that the retail cost of electricity is actually skyrocketing. This raises questions of fairness and undermines people's confidence in the system. I think they may look at the ever-widening gap between the feed-in tariff paid for exports and the unit cost of electricity for households, and, again, that raises those questions of fairness.  What we need now is a discussion about strengthening the value proposition for household renewables and not diminishing it. I urge the Government to examine options like a guaranteed minimum clean export guarantee rate; greater transparency and standardisation of export tariffs; and additional protections against any unfair reductions in export payments.  Households generating renewable electricity are making a positive contribution to the grid every day. They should not be treated as passive consumers. They are energy producers, climate actors and partners in the transition to cleaner energy. The Government should be making clear that their contribution will continue to be recognised and rewarded through a fair, transparent and durable clean export guarantee framework and through the continuation of the tax exemption for microgeneration of electricity. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Marian Harkin","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","memberCode":"Marian-Harkin.D.2002-06-06","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Marian Harkin  As I set out, the electricity and gas retail markets in Ireland operate within a European Union regulatory regime, wherein electricity and gas markets are commercial, liberalised and competitive. Responsibility for the regulation of the electricity and gas markets, including with regard to the clean export guarantee, is solely a matter for the CRU.  In relation to the development of tariffs under the CEG arrangements, the CRU is of the view that the competitive approach, whereby suppliers set their own competitive export tariffs, has functioned well and will continue.  Separately, while the microgeneration support scheme does provide for the sale of surplus electricity back to the grid, domestic solar PV systems are generally sized for self-consumption. The main benefit for householders and businesses is in offsetting the need to buy some or even most of their required electricity from a retailer, or, in other words, from the grid. There is no limit to the area of solar panels that can be installed on the rooftops of homes anywhere in the country. The Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI, grant is capped at \u20ac1,800 for up to 4 kWp of solar panels, but householders can install more if they wish to do so.  A typical solar PV installation can meet a large proportion of a home's electricity usage, and the balance can be used through EV charging, diverting it to hot water heating or battery storage. The aim is to maximise the use of solar generation within the home. Using the electricity generated in homes is the most efficient way to get the best return on their investment. The electricity used within the home has a much greater financial value to the homeowner. Every unit of electricity from a PV array used in the home has a value of somewhere between 30 cent and 35 cent, but every unit of electricity exported back to the grid has a value of between 18 cent and 20 cent per unit. Every unit exported, therefore, is worth approximately 12 cent less than if it had been used within the home. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Ruair\u00ed-\u00d3-Murch\u00fa.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach Gn\u00edomhach (Deputy Ruair\u00ed \u00d3 Murch\u00fa)  T\u00e1imid cr\u00edochnaithe le hobair an lae uilig. Caithfidh m\u00e9 rud \u00e9igin beag a r\u00e1. It was great to see Louth GAA and Louth LGFA in the Oireachtas. I could not let this occasion go without thanking them for the great results across the board that we have had. I thank Sean McLean and his team for delivering what is going to be a top-class stadium. I just hope that Gavin Devlin and his team can go ahead and we can learn from Mayo, get some of that magic and just go a little bit further next time. Go raibh maith agaibh. An L\u00fa ab\u00fa. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an D\u00e1il ar athl\u00f3 ar 9.39 p.m. go dt\u00ed 9 a.m., D\u00e9 C\u00e9adaoin, an 23 Me\u00e1n F\u00f3mhair 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The D\u00e1il adjourned at 9.39 p.m. until 9 a.m. on Wednesday, 23 September 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Renewable Energy Generation"}]}}]},"contextDate":"2026-09-22"},{"debateRecord":{"house":{"showAs":"Committee on Budgetary Oversight","committeeCode":"committee_on_budgetary_oversight","houseCode":"dail","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/committee\/dail\/34\/committee_on_budgetary_oversight","chamberType":"committee","houseNo":"34"},"chamber":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/def\/committee","showAs":"Committee on Budgetary Oversight"},"lastUpdated":"2026-09-24T16:56:08+00:00","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/committee_on_budgetary_oversight\/2026-09-22\/debate\/main","formats":{"xml":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/committee_on_budgetary_oversight\/2026-09-22\/debate\/mul@\/main.xml"},"pdf":null},"date":"2026-09-22","counts":{"contributorCount":7,"divisionCount":0,"debateSectionCount":1,"questionCount":0,"billCount":0},"debateType":"debate","debateSections":[{"debateSection":{"uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/akn\/ie\/debateRecord\/committee_on_budgetary_oversight\/2026-09-22\/debate\/dbsect_2","debateType":"debate","bill":null,"showAs":"Pre-Budget 2027 Engagement (Resumed)","counts":{"speechCount":108,"speakerCount":8},"parentDebateSection":null,"containsDebate":true,"debateSectionId":"dbsect_2","speakers":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Alan Barrett","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Johnny Guirke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Johnny-Guirke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Johnny-Guirke.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null}},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null}}],"formats":{"xml":null,"pdf":null},"text":[{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  I ask everyone to turn off all mobile phones and devices or put them on silent. I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses make to other persons in their evidence. They are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Chair to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.  I advise members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex to participate in public meetings. In this regard, I ask any members participating via MS Teams that prior to making their contribution to the meeting they confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, I will direct them to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.  Today's engagement forms part of our pre-budget 2027 scrutiny. This will lead into publication of the committee's pre-budget 2027 report later this month. From the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, I welcome: Dr. Conor O'Toole, associate professor; Dr. Alan Barrett, research professor; Dr. Paul Egan, senior research officer; and Mr. Donal O'Shea, research assistant. I also welcome Mr. John McGeady, CEO, and Ms Michelle Murphy, research and policy analyst, at Social Justice Ireland and, from the Nevin Economic Research Institute, Dr. Tom McDonnell, co-director, Mr. Ciar\u00e1n Nugent, economist, and Mr. Paul Goldrick-Kelly, economist.  The committee welcomes the opportunity to engage with the witnesses. I thank them for being here today. I invite the witnesses to make their opening statements. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Conor O'Toole","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Conor O'Toole  I thank the Chair and the committee for the invitation to attend today. I am research professor at the ESRI. I am joined by my colleagues Professor Alan Barrett, Dr. Paul Egan and Mr. Donal O'Shea.  In these opening remarks, we want to set out the broad economic and fiscal context surrounding budget 2027. It has been a recurring theme in recent ESRI commentaries that our narrative contains elements of both optimism and caution. The optimism is based on the continued good performance of the economy. Employment grew this year to the second quarter and now stands at over 2.8 million. Strong VAT returns and consumption growth in the first half of the year also indicate positive underlying momentum in the domestic economy.  As regards caution, our views on the likely future path of the economy continue to be tempered by the potential fragility of the public finances and some concerning features of the global economy. The headline public finance figures disguise vulnerabilities, namely, the unusually high share of corporate taxes in total revenues, the high proportion of corporate taxes that are windfall in nature and the low number of companies paying a high share of corporation taxes. These vulnerabilities in the public finances would always be concerning but in the context of some troubling features of the global economy, the concerns become elevated.  The global economy is being presently pulled between two major cross-currents. First, the conflict involving the US, Israel and Iran has re-escalated in recent days, which has led in turn to oil prices increasing with Brent crude surpassing \u20ac100 per barrel. This brings back the prospect of higher inflation rates for a prolonged period and consequent interest rates rises. The second major cross-current is the large-scale increase in capital expenditures globally on AI-related technology and hardware, which has provided a timely upside boost for global prospects. Capital expenditures on the infrastructure needed to run the AI-economy, such as data centres, chips and energy production, have increased considerably. As a globally integrated economy with a large technology sector, Ireland is well-placed to experience upside effects from this AI roll-out, impacting investment and exports in particular.  However, notable downside risks remain and these reinforce the existing vulnerabilities to the public finances and the wider economy. These risks are threefold. First, the investments in AI-related activities may not meet return expectations and this may have knock-on impacts on corporate earnings and employment in the related sectors. Second, technology-related employment may be more sensitive to AI replacement in a knowledge-based economy like Ireland, thus near-term displacement could occur to jobs. Third, the interaction of heightened geopolitical tensions and a further disruption to energy markets could put additional pressures on households and firms. This could lead to increased short-term demands for policy protection which is likely reliant on the uncertain windfall revenues of multinationals.  Another point that must be noted is that sovereign borrowing costs are rising internationally, in particular for those economies with pre-existing fiscal vulnerabilities: high debt levels, large and persistent deficits and low growth out-turns. The potential implications for Ireland of this mix of large fiscal deficits, growing national indebtedness and increasing bond yields across a number of countries are not necessarily all known and understood.  It will be recalled that the first signs of the global financial crisis occurred in US private debt markets, which exposed international credit market vulnerabilities. High indebtedness among euro members compounded these difficulties. While we are not drawing such a conclusion at the present time, the high level of public debt in the US is raising concerns in markets. Of more immediate concern is the possibility that a generalised increase in bond yields will include Ireland. To some extent this is being seen already with Irish rates on an upward path.  Some of the key parameters of budget 2027 have already been announced in the summer economic statement. We would make some points in that regard. First, although a package of \u20ac8.5 billion will be consistent with maintaining a general Government surplus, when account is taken of the windfall corporation tax, a deficit emerges. As argued previously, this strikes us as being at odds with prudent fiscal management, especially where windfall revenues are used to fund recurrent expenditures.  Second, an increase of 5.9% on the 2026 expenditure base loses meaning if spending overruns in 2026 become part of the opening position in 2027. This is compounded if there are spending overruns in 2027. The important point is to have credible fiscal plans and to adhere to them, in line with the thinking set out in the medium-term fiscal and structural plan published in December 2025.  Third, fiscal policy should always aim to be countercyclical. Irish fiscal policy has rarely operated in this manner and is currently highly procyclical. We recommend that budget 2027 be characterised by caution whereby a larger headline surplus is targeted this year and a path set for a reduction in the windfall-adjusted deficit over time. While we urge a high degree of caution in managing the public finances, this does not mean specific needs cannot be addressed. However, sound fiscal management does imply targeted approaches should be employed where possible. In that context, we highlight research showing a second, means-tested tier of child benefit could lift 40,000 children out of poverty at a cost of just under \u20ac700 million.  A long-standing theme of ESRI commentaries has been the requirement to deploy capital to address well-known challenges in housing, healthcare, water, energy and broader infrastructure. Continued expenditure on capital items that does not vary with the economic cycle will be critical to long-term growth prospects. Investment data have laid bare the continued dominance of multinationals in investment activities. Ensuring the deployment of capital by the Government and domestic firms is critical to building a resilient economic structure and will help to position Ireland to battle shifting global sands. We look forward to members' questions. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. John McGeady","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. John McGeady  A Chathaoirligh agus a bhaill den choiste, go raibh maith agaibh as ucht an cuiridh inniu. Social Justice Ireland recommends that the Government should prioritise four outcomes in budget 2027: this budget must protect the most vulnerable; it must promote a more equitable distribution of the economic resources; it must invest in our social infrastructure and services; and it must future-proof the public finances.  In terms of protecting the most vulnerable, key priorities are to benchmark core social welfare rates to 27.5% of average earnings and to commit to achieving this over two budgets, increasing core welfare rates by \u20ac15 in budget 2027 and a further \u20ac10 in budget 2028. We also propose that the Government should introduce a cost-of-disability allowance at an initial rate of \u20ac20 a week. Budget 2027 should increase child benefit by \u20ac20 and increase child support payments for those under the age of 12 by \u20ac10 a week and \u20ac18 a week for those aged 12 and over. The fuel allowance should be extended by four weeks.  We welcome the statement by An Taoiseach that budget 2027 will focus on the cost of living. Any fair cost-of-living budget must focus on long-term targeted measures that prioritise the lowest income households. Based on CSO data, we estimate that almost 690,000 people were living below the poverty line in 2025. Of this number, more than 210,000 were children.  The Central Bank forecasts an inflation rate of 3.4% for 2026 and 3.1% for 2027. The impact of inflation is greatest for households in the bottom 20% of the income distribution. If we are to protect those most exposed to price shocks and enhance resilience, we must invest in adequate incomes. Ad hoc increases to welfare payments, unrelated to other movements in the economy, fail to address income adequacy in a strategic and sustained manner. We encourage the Minister for Social Protection to commit to indexing welfare rates to earnings. This would allow the Government to take a long-term approach to the persistent problem of households who are unable to make ends meet.  In terms of promoting a more equitable distribution of economic resources, key priorities for budget 2027 are to increase the PAYE and earned income tax credits by \u20ac5 per week and make these tax credits refundable. In terms of fairness, tax credits deliver gains to almost all working households and avoid a situation where many low- to middle-income earners are excluded from budgetary gains. Moreover, the rise of precarious work has created a structural crisis whereby 5.8% of employed people experience poverty in Ireland. Introducing a system of refundable tax credits at a cost of \u20ac210 million in 2027 would allow the lowest income workers, who do not earn enough to use the full value of their credits, to have the unused portion of those credits paid to them as a cash refund. Coupled with decisions to adequately increase welfare payments, this would help to deliver a notably fair and progressive budget.  In terms of investment in our social infrastructure and services, key priorities for budget 2027 are to increase planned social housing construction to 20,000 units per annum and extend housing first to families. In line with the Housing Commission\u2019s recommendation for an increase in the share of social and cost-rental housing, we propose that the Government should set a target for 20% of all housing stock to be social housing by 2040. We propose increasing the annual target to 20,000 units for the next five years, up from the current commitment of 12,000. The Government should invest \u20ac2.2 billion from windfall corporate tax receipts to achieve this target.  In terms of the homelessness crisis, the number of people who had to resort to emergency accommodation exceeded 17,500, including 5,659 children, in the last week of July. Family homelessness has increased by 140% over the past decade. Budget 2027 should therefore extend the housing first approach to homeless families at a cost of \u20ac130 million.  In terms of future-proofing our public finances, the key priority for the budget should be to set a tax-take target on a per capita basis. The profile of Ireland\u2019s population is changing and is projected to reach up to 7 million by 2057. The proportion of the population aged over 65 years is also set to increase significantly. We must be realistic about how much will need to be spent on our social infrastructure and services. Government decisions to raise or reduce the overall level of tax revenue ought to be linked to the demand on resources. We therefore recommend that the Government should set a tax-take target on a per capita basis. This would link Ireland\u2019s overall level of taxation to population size and the related demand on resources. We propose that budget 2027 should begin the process of moving towards a tax-take target of \u20ac29,247 per capita over the coming years. We believe these proposals can make a meaningful difference in Irish society.  We would welcome your questions. Go raibh maith agaibh. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Tom McDonnell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Tom McDonnell  I thank the Cathaoirleach and members and staff of the committee for the invitation to appear before it. We value the opportunity to give our views on the context and priorities leading up to budget 2027 and on budgetary policy more generally.  Most of the big budgetary decisions are already made. The summer economic statement provides for a fiscal package of \u20ac8.5 billion in new measures. This is made up of \u20ac5.9 billion in current day-to-day spending, \u20ac1.1 billion in extra capital spending and tax cuts amounting to \u20ac1.5 billion. Much of the nominal increase in day-to-day spending will be absorbed by inflation, population growth and the demand cost pressures of an ageing population. A deal on public pay that adequately compensates workers will also need to be accommodated. The mooted indexation of the income tax system will absorb most, if not all, of the space for tax cuts \u2013 5% indexation, for example, would absorb all of it. In practice, there will be very little in desperately needed policy innovations - whether a second tier of child benefit to reduce child poverty, as the ESRI mentioned; roll-out of a public childcare model; or game-changer supports for the green transition. Without tax increases, there will remain limited space for new major spending initiatives.  We know the fiscal picture will darken in the years and decades to come. We would, therefore, point to the Commission on Taxation and Welfare\u2019s menu of options for raising taxes, from various capital tax reforms to the rolling back of a range of our badly conceived and designed tax breaks.  The economy has grown rapidly in recent years, with economic growth set to continue into 2027. The employment rate is close to its record high and employment continues to grow. Inflation remains high due to the energy supply shock caused by the war in the Middle East and is likely to remain elevated in the short term, with Brent crude in excess of $100. CSO analysis shows that lower income households are experiencing higher rates of inflation this year than richer households. More than one in seven households were already experiencing enforced deprivation in 2025. Yet it is misleading to frame the cost-of-living pressures as being experienced universally. Many are doing very well. The savings rate is highly elevated, and deposit levels are increasing by hundreds of millions every month. Universal giveaways are not needed. The economy has never been stronger and clearly does not need fiscal support. Indeed, the budgetary package as set out is modestly pro-cyclical and inflationary. A more prudent approach would be a package of net spending growth that is marginally smaller than the economy\u2019s potential growth rate of 4.5% to 5%. Higher levels of gross spending can, of course, be funded by broadening the tax base.  Times of economic strength are precisely when we should be increasing taxes and preparing for the future with strategic foresight. This does not preclude us from protecting people from cost-of-living pressures, and we should protect the vulnerable, but it does mean we have to choose who to support and how best to do it. We are an energy importer experiencing a negative terms-of-trade shock, and we are collectively poorer because of it. Fiscal supports to protect households from the energy crisis should, therefore, be understood as distributional in nature. The nature of the supports is about deciding who in Ireland pays the extra cost rather than avoiding the cost per se .  Indexation of the welfare and income tax systems to the higher price or wage growth is, in our view, the most sensible first response to the crisis. This should be combined with generous subsidies to help lower and middle income households to reduce their demand for petrol, diesel and gas over time. The cost-of-living crisis is fundamentally an inadequacy-of-income crisis, and adequacy should be the goal in budget 2027.  As an aside, at a time when the poorest in society are enduring a cost-of-living crisis, it is odd, to say the least, that the Government seems to be focusing on lining up a basket of goodies for those best-off in society via the mooted tax breaks for inheritors and savers. Surely the Government has more pressing priorities.  Overall, the public finances are in good shape in the short term, with a healthy fiscal surplus and a manageable net debt ratio. Yet the headline figures mask severe vulnerabilities and concentration risks. Thus far, the surplus means that Ireland has been spared the recent bond market pressure faced by the United States, the United Kingdom, France and other advanced economies. Yet Ireland has been consistently plagued by unsustainable boom-bust fiscal policies that have arguably been the greatest source of economic volatility over the last half-century. Now is not the time for complacency and short-sightedness. We have recklessly developed a dangerous dependency on concentrated and potentially transitory revenues. We need a mature and honest debate about how we manage the public finances, how we raise revenue and how we allocate our precious fiscal resources. This committee is perfectly placed to fulfil this role.  In this context, there are a number of fiscal principles that we would endorse and that we are happy to elaborate upon. First, always be countercyclical. This means running meaningful current spending surpluses in good times and even in normal times. Second, apply a medium-term target that protects investment spending. This is to ensure that sufficient and stable resources for investment spending are protected across the economic cycle. Third, quarantine potentially transitory revenues. Windfalls and transitory or cyclical revenues should not be made available for use either to fund day-to-day spending or to finance tax cuts. Fourth, start a debate. This debate should encompass multi-annual budgeting, expenditure needs, fiscal sustainability, intergenerational fairness and revenue composition and sufficiency.  To be economically radical and protect our budgetary sovereignty, we will need to be fiscally conservative. Fundamentally, we need to embed and hardwire sustainable budgetary policy into our economic model. If we can achieve this, we will strengthen our economic resilience and protect ourselves from devastating and periodic bouts of boom and bust that culminate in inevitable and painful austerity. The world is a volatile, uncertain place. We should at least ensure we have our own house in order so we can withstand the storms to come. We are happy to take questions. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard O'Donoghue","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Richard-O'Donoghue.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Cathaoirleach  Thank you. I now open the floor to members. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett  I thank all of the contributors for their very interesting and informative submissions and contributions so far. I will start where we finished, with NERI. Dr. McDonnell referred to the schemes for the already well-off that the Government is proposing. Was part of that a reference to the new Government investment scheme? He might elaborate on that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Tom McDonnell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Tom McDonnell  Yes, it is a concern. We have limited fiscal space, as we know. Four years ago, the Commission on Taxation and Welfare talked about the need to increase revenue and broaden the tax base. Therefore, while there is absolutely an issue with how we deploy savings in this country, and too much is held in current accounts, for example, the concern is that such a policy would be necessarily regressive because it disproportionately benefits savers, and we know that would essentially be the top two thirds. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett  I might say this from a sort of socialist point of view, but is it just trying to turn everybody into a capitalist? Is it also quite risky for people? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Tom McDonnell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Tom McDonnell  It does create risks for people. Presumably, the goal of the scheme will be so generous as to insulate households or to make the return very attractive. Again, while there may be a logic to increasing savings that are available to be redeployed for Irish enterprise, the State or whatever it might be, the concern with a policy like this is that we have a cost-of-living crisis, so we need to focus on other areas like research and development, education, second-tier child benefit and a public childcare system. It is an odd choice during a cost-of-living crisis to devote so many fiscal resources to this. We know, of course, that it will be chiselled out of the \u20ac1.5 billion tax package, which in practice means it will be chiselled away from workers, who will get a smaller indexation because of it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett  I engaged with Mr. Nugent recently on the paper that NERI produced on the net wealth tax. That is something we have always advocated, so I am delighted that NERI has done work on it. Does Dr. McDonnell want to talk about that? It underlines the fact that there is a group of people who have plenty of money at the moment and are doing very well, and that a tax on them - the multimillionaires in this country - might be advisable in order to fund assistance for those who are actually struggling with the cost-of-living crisis. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Tom McDonnell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Tom McDonnell  It was a piece of research we were asked to undertake earlier this year to see whether a net wealth tax would have been viable in the case of Ireland, and to understand why other wealth taxes had failed and how a wealth tax could be designed in a way that would avoid the mistakes of the past. What we discovered was that wealth taxes failed because they were very badly designed. Usually, they had a lot of exemptions and reliefs associated with them, so all you had to do was move around your assets, as we see with inheritance tax at the moment, where business people just buy up farmland because it is treated much better for inheritance tax. A net wealth tax would work in the same way. The only way to get a wealth tax to be successful is to ensure there are no reliefs. To get around the fact that there are no reliefs, it needs to have a high threshold because, otherwise, it captures too many households. We would be looking at designing a tax that would only hit perhaps 1% to 2% of households at most. Because a wealth tax is paid out of income, ultimately, you have to be conscious about the interaction with income tax as well.  It is true that implicit tax rates on capital are much lower than taxes on labour. Obviously, there is a need to reprofile the tax base overall, so there is less of an emphasis on consumption taxes and labour taxes and a move more towards capital taxes. A wealth tax is a good example of that. It is true that this would be a tax that would affect only 1% of households and would have no impact in terms of----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett  I am talking about a tax on multimillionaires that could raise billions, potentially. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Tom McDonnell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Tom McDonnell  Depending on the rate that is set. If a rate of around 1% is set, you would be looking at a yield of, conservatively, about \u20ac750 million or \u20ac800 million, or possibly more. Obviously, if you set higher rates, you can get higher yields. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett  I thank Dr. McDonnell for that. The ESRI mentioned AI and suggested that it is fuelling a lot of growth. Would the ESRI also mention the possible dangers? There is a huge debate about AI, data centres, the expansion of the infrastructure for that and the impact it is having on the cost of electricity. The ESRI might want to comment on that. I think it was Friends of the Earth that put out a paper suggesting it is driving up the cost of electricity for ordinary people. Perhaps the ESRI has an opinion on that. The Financial Times recently said that the whole American economy is one big gamble on AI. I think 80% of stock market gains are being driven by investment in AI and it accounts for 40% of US GDP growth. It seems like a fair description of what is going on with AI.  Is Ireland, by extension, given its heavy concentration on the digital and IT sector and the planning for the further proliferation of data centres, taking one big gamble on this sector? Is that a big risk, given that there are no profits being recorded in the sector? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Conor O'Toole","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Conor O'Toole  I am happy to come in on that. It is very clear internationally in the past 12 months that investment in AI across the board globally has ramped up massively, be it in the US or elsewhere. Those investments are increasingly concentrated in the infrastructure and hardware in the AI economy. It is quite a strong current that is pushing the global economy upwards. We have had a number of downside shocks in recent years, including the energy crisis coming from the war in Iran. This is a welcome concurrent against that downside pressure but it comes with big risks.  Our opening statement and the past number of commentaries - just before Christmas last we also noted this when we looked at the stock market performance of some of the big AI players in the US - indicate these are the same companies that are here in Ireland with major presences. If the return expectations are not met by those firms, which have made very large investments, there could be knock-on auxiliary impacts on profitability for those firms globally and with their operations in Ireland, and on the employment of those firms. Given that we are a digitally interconnected economy that is very well-placed to benefit from AI productivity-based gains, which we hope would be a positive from AI, there are also very serious downside risks. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett  I will have to get to Social Justice Ireland on the second round. Apologies. Would Dr. O'Toole agree with the point on AI driving up electricity prices for ordinary people? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Conor O'Toole","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Conor O'Toole  That is not something we have done research on. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett  I thank Dr. O'Toole. I will come in again on the second round. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Johnny Guirke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Johnny-Guirke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Johnny-Guirke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Johnny Guirke  I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee. Dr. O'Toole mentioned that the ESRI research shows a means-tested tier of child benefit could lift 40,000 children out of poverty for just under \u20ac700 million. Has this been raised with the Government? What is its mood in that regard? In theory, this would change the lives of children living in poverty. What does Dr. O'Toole think the Government's counter-argument to implementing this would be? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Conor O'Toole","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Conor O'Toole  This is research that has been completed by my colleague, Professor Karina Doorley, and co-authors. Their research highlights the additional expenditure and impact that spending would have on child poverty. It is not our position to lobby for political or policy changes. Our job is to put the evidence out there for policymakers to make choices on the back of that evidence. Research which highlights the potential impacts clearly demonstrates that choices can be made which are impactful and can be made within the context of the budgetary envelopes we have available. It is part of the broader narrative we have put forward for quite some time across our commentaries that targeted and tailored measures are critical in the current environment, where we are trying to manage the sea of risks and ensure that the apparently healthy public finances we have do not turn, leaving us without options. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Johnny Guirke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Johnny-Guirke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Johnny-Guirke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Johnny Guirke  Deputy Boyd Barrett referred to a wealth tax. Dr. McDonnell said it would take in roughly \u20ac800 million. Are there any downsides to a wealth tax? A 2% tax on wealth could take in \u20ac1.5 billion per year. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Conor O'Toole","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Conor O'Toole  That is not our research and I do not want to comment on the methodologies and calculations in that particular paper. Colleagues of ours did some work on this a number of years ago. There are pros and cons. As Dr. O'Donnell said, often these policies work or do not work based on the calibration and targeting. One of the historic challenge with wealth taxes in Ireland was that a huge amount of wealth was caught up in the family home and the extent to which that would be brought into the wealth tax calculations. We have a local property tax which, in a sense, taxes the value of residential dwellings. There is an instrument that covers that. Again, it depends on the calibration of the taxes as well as the composition of the base that is included. There are a lot of parameters around a tax like that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Johnny Guirke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Johnny-Guirke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Johnny-Guirke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Johnny Guirke  I have some questions for Social Justice Ireland. It urged the Government to pursue employment friendly tax policies that reward work. Is it of the view that the Government and its tax policy have created fear for people who would like to get employment but are worried they would be left worse off if finding employment means losing specific benefits? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. John McGeady","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. John McGeady  That would not be a particular concern but it is important to avoid the risks around poverty traps. In the summer economic statement, the Government laid out a \u20ac1.5 billion tax package and it seems that is what it is going to do. Our primary policy recommendation this year is that targeting it towards lower- and middle-income workers is the fairest way to distribute those resources so that they are not excluded and benefit from that reduction in their income tax. We have argued for making those tax credits refundable. A cohort of people are in work but earn so little that they pay less tax than the full value of their tax credit. If the tax credit is increased, the gap they are not gaining increases even further. Making that refundable is the fairest way to ensure that everybody benefits from that tax package. That would make it worthwhile to pursue work. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Johnny Guirke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Johnny-Guirke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Johnny-Guirke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Johnny Guirke  Social Justice Ireland estimates that there were more than 210,000 children living below the poverty line in 2025. What specific combination of social welfare and public service supports would it prioritise to best deal with the worsening situation of children living in poverty or homelessness? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. John McGeady","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. John McGeady  We always point to the fact that children living in poverty belong to households that are in poverty. They are not in poverty by themselves. As we laid out in our opening statement, we are looking for an increase in child benefit and the supplementary child payment. A crucial element is ensuring that household incomes are adequate and households that are reliant on social welfare have adequate social welfare rates. Increasing the core social welfare rates and linking them to earnings so that they track earnings at an initial rate of 27.5% is the surest way to support those families and the children who belong to those families. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Michelle Murphy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Michelle Murphy  As Mr. McGeady said, household income is crucial for families. In terms of children in emergency accommodation, the housing first programme should be extended to include families. That is an absolute priority, given the impact of homelessness on children's development and life outcomes. On the phrase \"making work pay\", it is crucial that we design our social welfare system in terms of tapering the benefits so that when someone enters employment they not do not lose every entitlement they have. That is the issue. We need to make sure we design those thresholds and benefits in a way that they taper off as work income rises. That is a way to ensure people can enter the labour force, manage their household incomes and are not forced to decide whether they can afford to enter the labour force in the first place. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Johnny Guirke","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Johnny-Guirke.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Johnny-Guirke.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Johnny Guirke  Social Justice Ireland called for the fuel allowance to be extended by four weeks. Would it also support changes to eligibility so that more households experiencing energy poverty qualify for the payment? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Michelle Murphy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Michelle Murphy  Last year, we welcomed the fact that the fuel allowance was extended to households in receipt of the working family payment, which we had sought for a number of years. The extension is crucial. It was one of the only elements in the two packages that targeted lower income households earlier in the year. There is an argument for extending the threshold and number of weeks. In the longer term, whether we subsidise fossil fuels or not, we need to realign our fuel package with regard to household energy and consider how we support people to move to renewables while at the same time not removing supports from them.  That threshold should be looked at, especially to support working households who are currently above the threshold for the working family payment. That would be of considerable benefit to those households. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ged Nash  I will pick up with Ms Murphy on the question of fossil fuel subsidies. We are all concerned about the elevated price of energy and the impact that is having on consumers across the economy. We are divided on how that can best be tackled. The following question can be addressed by all of the contributors from the three organisations. If we are to deal with this issue in a responsible way, is it best to continue with excise cuts and carbon tax reductions? Is the better, more financially and socially responsible way to do this to devise and use a system of targeted energy credits and to use the tax and welfare system to ensure support for those who need it the most to get them through a difficult time? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Michelle Murphy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Michelle Murphy  Universal credits are obviously not the way to go. They were hugely expensive. While they provided some temporary relief to some households, we have seen an increase in arrears and in the number of households in energy poverty. Any supports must be targeted to the households who need it the most. Those households can be identified to the tax and welfare system. It is unfortunate that the energy affordability task force report will not be out until after the budget. We are concerned about what is energy affordability vis-\u00e0-vis energy poverty and what we are trying to address. We should be addressing energy poverty and supporting those households in arrears. There are targeted measures that can be implemented for rural households to support them towards renewables. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Alan Barrett","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Alan Barrett  There is almost a hierarchy. I will start by speaking about the way not to do this. The excise cuts are absolutely the worst way of doing this. We can draw on research by the ESRI in that regard. You are essentially giving more money back to wealthier households. The calculation done by the ESRI showed that something like half of the cuts went to the top 30% of households. I might get the precise details wrong. You are giving a lot of money to people in higher income brackets who simply do not need it. I cannot think of any policy where the Government would have an amount of cash and would ask who are the highest earning people so it could give them more of it and would taper a scheme that way. That approach makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.  Energy credits, funnily enough, are marginally better even though they are not targeted. Because the same amount of money goes to every household, it is not as bad as an excise cut whereby more money goes to wealthier households because they have bigger cars and houses and so on and so forth. It is not the worst approach but it is not ideal either.  We are back to targeting and doing it in that sort of manner. That can be done through the social welfare system. It does not have to be like taking an amount off your electricity bill or whatever. It can be a direct payment. That is a much better idea.  As we are on the theme, the following is a matter that the committee can ask representatives of the Department of Social Protection the next time they are before the committee. It relates to the question from Deputy Guirke. There is one thing I do not understand. We seem to be able to target SUSI grants but there seems to be a tremendous reluctance to target other sorts of payments. The SUSI website shows there are very fine degrees as your income goes up a little. At a lower income, you get full fees and whatever payments you need to keep you alive. It tapers all the way up. If you earn up to \u20ac120,000, you can get reduced fees. We seem to be able to do it in that case but there seems to be an inability to do it in other areas. There may be very good reasons for this, but after the Ukraine war, in particular, when we had a discussion about the need to target supports, it is a little disappointing that, five or six years later, we do not seem to have made as much progress in identifying mechanisms to direct resources. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ged Nash  That is particularly true considering the richness of data now available to the Revenue Commissioners, for example, which was not previously available. If we were able to develop overnight a system of wage supports during the pandemic, surely this should not be beyond us. That is a point worth making. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Paul Goldrick-Kelly","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Paul Goldrick-Kelly  I will chime in to add a little on targeting. Especially on the fuel excise cuts, it might be a better idea to look at examples in other European states that, for example, offer more generous grants to take up an EV or social leasing scheme. I know that is something that operates in France and some of the data coming back shows that the cohorts you want to target at the bottom of the income scale are the people taking it up. That might address the issue while maintaining consistency with our climate goals. That would probably be a better use of funds. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Ciar\u00e1n Nugent","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Ciar\u00e1n Nugent  The best way to save is not to consume the energy at all. We need to transition to a low-carbon economy and the best way to do that is to produce our own energy. We are already hearing kite-flying about the phasing out of feed-in tariffs that are already quite low for people with private solar panels. The grants are low and take-up is low. The take-up is only there for people in high-income households. In reality, somewhere in the region of half the country would not be able to afford solar panels even with the grant. That is the way forward. We are now talking about 3.5% inflation but we do not know what is going to kick off in Iran or what the situation will be in a year's time. In terms of long-term resilience and sustainability, that is where that should be going. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Ged Nash","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Gerald-Nash.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Ged Nash  A paper on carbon tax was published by a colleague from the ESRI last week. It considered its impact on the economy and households and so on. I am paraphrasing, but the conclusion was that the best way to address issues around affordability when it comes to the carbon tax is to retain the carbon tax but make it more progressive. There is a case for passing legislation to ensure funding is entirely ring-fenced. It would then be easier to make the case for carbon tax. The point made in the paper was that the best way to address any affordability issues that might arise from carbon tax - I am paraphrasing and can be corrected if I am wrong - is to use the tax and welfare system to support those on low and middle incomes. Would the witnesses agree with that assessment? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Alan Barrett","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Alan Barrett  The Deputy is absolutely right. Everybody understands that the carbon tax is regressive. It is not an ideal tax in that sense. When it was designed and introduced, it was specifically decided that the revenues would contribute on two fronts. One way was via direct payments through the welfare code and the other was retrofits and everything like that. Of course, you could argue that they should be more narrowly targeted or whatever else. The package around carbon tax was what mattered, rather than the individual tax. The idea of that now being pulled away is unfortunate. There is a harsh reality. We obviously do not want to see people suffer but, over time, we need to see people moving away from fossil fuels. It is absolutely the case they need to be assisted, but we want some sort of price signal to exist. If we try to have a world in which the price of petrol is never going to go above \u20ac1.50, nobody is ever going to transition to an EV, or whatever else. That balance has to be struck. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cian O'Callaghan  I thank everyone for their contributions. I will start on that last point. I ask the following of the representatives of Social Justice Ireland. On the carbon tax, what sort of supports would be sufficient for people on low incomes not to be so impacted? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Michelle Murphy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Michelle Murphy  We are concerned, as a result of the current noises, that carbon tax is going to be increased or paused, considering what it funds. It funds the fuel allowance, the agri-climate rural environment scheme, ACRES, and various other payments. We are also concerned that the full revenue, particularly for just transition measures, has not been spent in recent years. That is of concern to us. We need to use the welfare system, in particular, to target and support households. There are particular measures. It was introduced in the first place to incentivise people to move away from fossil fuels. Certain measures can be introduced. We could target EV grants at rural households. We could consider reinstating the grant for the charging infrastructure. We need to target rural households. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cian O'Callaghan  Are EV grants for rural households the key thing? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Michelle Murphy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Michelle Murphy  No, but in terms of a budgetary context in the next fortnight, we need to do something to support people to move. At the moment we are incentivising the wrong things. Even the current discussion and narrative, which is solely on excise and fuel cuts, is not getting beyond----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cian O'Callaghan  Rural houses in particular are faced with extra costs for petrol and diesel, since they have longer distances and fewer public transport options, and they are faced with extra costs for home heating oil. EV grants are one measure Ms Murphy has mentioned, particularly for rural households. Is there anything else? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Michelle Murphy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Michelle Murphy  If they are in contact with the welfare system, depending on household income, the State could also target them with further supports. I am looking at those working households as well. I mentioned extending the threshold for the working family payment, for example, which would entitle them to the fuel allowance but also to the full SEAI package for retrofitting, which is also crucial. It is important to ramp up those measures and make them affordable for people, but also to allow people to benefit from them. A concern for us is that we are going to see a slowing down of those measures, which will make it harder for us to meet our own targets and to incentivise households. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cian O'Callaghan  And harder for low-income families, who end up getting trapped with higher cost. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Michelle Murphy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Michelle Murphy  It will be less affordable for them, yes. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cian O'Callaghan  I want to ask the ESRI about the issue of child poverty. Research published recently by the ESRI shows that child poverty has increased. The Taoiseach disputed the methodology used. Does the ESRI have any comment to make on that? Is the methodology used by the ESRI with regard to child poverty and, indeed, generally robust and sound? I would have thought it absolutely is. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Alan Barrett","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Alan Barrett  I am not here to defend the Taoiseach, but just to make sure we are all on the same page, I think the point he was making was that the data used for the report went back to 2023, I think. His argument was that a number of things that happened between now and then, including things like the extension of free child meals, were not part of the overall calculations. I do not think he was challenging the methodology or anything like that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cian O'Callaghan  The media coverage on it was wrong. He was not challenging the methodology. That is Dr. Barrett's view. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Alan Barrett","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Alan Barrett  I might be wrong, but that was my understanding at the time when I heard him talk about it. There are always disputes in the measurement of poverty. This is something that has gone on for years - what we include and what we do not include. It is not like there is an absolute, single metric that everybody buys into. There are different ways of slicing and dicing it. From a broader perspective, what everybody accepted and took from that report, and I do not think anybody dismissed it, is that child poverty is remarkably high in Ireland and it has increased. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cian O'Callaghan  The Taoiseach disputed what the ESRI did. He argued that 60% of median household disposable income to measure poverty is a very high benchmark. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Alan Barrett","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Alan Barrett  It is another method. If the Deputy looks at the Central Statistics Office website, he can see that there are about three different measures of poverty in the census, such as income poverty, consistent poverty and so on. There are different ways of doing it. The ESRI methodology included housing costs. There are different ways of doing, and the data timing was the other issue. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cian O'Callaghan  Where does the 60% of median household disposable income come from? Did the ESRI invent it or did it come from somewhere else? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Alan Barrett","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Alan Barrett  The CSO may have invented it but that would have been about 25, 30 or maybe 35 years ago. The CSO used that as a threshold to measure what is known as income poverty, the idea being that if someone is below 60% of median earnings, it means they are in poverty. It is an ad hoc sort of choice; it could be 50% and it could be 40%. The ESRI was involved in the later measurement, which was to add deprivation indices on top of the income measure. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cian O'Callaghan  I have a question for the Nevin institute. Social Justice Ireland talked about the goal of setting a tax take target on a per capita basis. I want to get the view of the Nevin institute on that and on how we stand relative to comparable countries in terms of tax take per capita . "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Tom McDonnell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Tom McDonnell  I am not sure per capita is the basis on which I would necessarily compare us with other European countries. There is a huge disparity of income. Bulgaria and Romania would have much lower living standards than we would, so comparisons against those countries would not necessarily work. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cian O'Callaghan  It could be compared with high-income European countries. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Tom McDonnell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Tom McDonnell  It may be the wrong way to look at it. We have to define what we want public services and income supports to do. What are the goals we want to have, what do other countries do and how does Ireland fit into all that? Our sustainable revenue base has to be able to match that. It is going to change over time. As we get an older population, for example, our revenue to GNI* ratio is going to have to increase over time if we want to maintain services at the level they are. There is no right answer per se but Ireland is certainly close to the bottom in terms of Government revenue as a percentage of economic output. It is clear in that regard that we are absolutely not a high-tax country. There are some elephants in the room and some obvious areas where tax or Government revenue is very low. Social contributions, or PRSI as we call it here, are the big one. That is where we are completely out of line with most other European countries. There is certainly scope to increase taxes in Ireland to an extent that is not necessarily there in the same way in places like France or indeed the Scandinavian countries. We do have the scope to do that, but then the public services they get in those countries are commensurately better, which adds to people's economic security from cradle to grave and arguably adds to their resilience over the longer term. We absolutely do think there is scope to increase taxes overall in Ireland without necessarily putting Ireland out of line with other European countries in any way. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cian O'Callaghan  On the wealth tax, it was said earlier that there is a need to be conscious in its design of how it interacts with the income tax system for high-wealth households or individuals. Will Dr. McDonnell expand on that? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Tom McDonnell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Tom McDonnell  In the same way that we pay most of our taxes out of what is left after we pay our income tax, if, for example, in a particular year, someone is paying a marginal income tax rate of 50%, there is a wealth tax of 3% and the return on wealth is 5%, it could be argued that the wealth tax is effectively a 60% tax in terms of income, so that 50% plus 60% takes an individual over 100%. We get to a point in terms of wealth taxes where it becomes self-defeating. Individuals effectively have to start using their wealth to be able to pay their wealth tax, if that makes sense. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cian O'Callaghan  In Dr. McDonnell's opinion, it should be designed not to do that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Tom McDonnell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Tom McDonnell  I just picked figures there and am not necessarily linking them to anything. The point is that there is a natural upper band in terms of what is feasible in wealth taxes, which is probably lower than most people anticipate. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Cian O'Callaghan","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Cian-O'Callaghan.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Cian O'Callaghan  Thank you. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  I have a few questions for Dr. Barrett and Dr. McDonnell. I have a general comment on reducing or increasing excise duty. Would the witnesses not agree that the Government is trying to find a balance here? There is already about \u20ac4 billion being collected between VAT and excise duties on fossil fuels and so on. Is it actually true that it is helping the wealthier? Have we done any research on it? I would almost see the reduction in the petrol and diesel as akin to an income tax break. The main beneficiaries are people who are driving to work, although other people drive as well. The wealthy have modern, newer cars that are more fuel-efficient and are often electric. It is actually the people who are less well off who have older cars that are less fuel-efficient. I would not really see the excise cut as a support to wealthy people. I would see it more as a support to workers and people driving inefficient cars. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Alan Barrett","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Alan Barrett  I see the point the Leas-Chathaoirleach is making. The analysis by ESRI colleagues was taking the household budget survey, which is the representative information from across the country. Accepting the points the Leas-Chathaoirleach makes, and at the margin those sort of things might make a difference, it is still fundamentally the case that wealthier people drive bigger cars with more powerful engines. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  Not more fuel. They can be more fuel-efficient than other cars with smaller engines. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Alan Barrett","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Alan Barrett  They might be. All I am saying is that the data which the CSO collected, which is our most reliable picture of consumption and expenditure patterns for the country, shows that there are higher fuel expenditures among wealthier people. By definition, then, if we cut the taxes on those, we are disproportionately benefiting wealthier people. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  I would be interested in seeing that data. On a separate point, the topic of windfall corporation tax receipts comes up all the time at this committee. I want to ask Dr. McDonnell about the idea of ring-fencing that. I understand Norway has a rule.  If we bring in some legislation, and Dr. McDonnell mentioned it in his report, we can fix exactly what the windfall is and how it is calculated. It is obviously complex. The Central Bank said last week that it is well over \u20ac17 billion, half of the total corporate tax receipts. What do the witnesses think of the idea of bringing in some kind of legislation to fix that so it is not discretionary money, so to speak, at budget time? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Alan Barrett","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Alan Barrett  I will say a quick word on that. In a sense, we did something similar to this many years ago. It is long-forgotten, but this State set up the National Pensions Reserve Fund in 2001, I think, when Eircom was sold. The much-maligned Charlie McCreevy took that windfall, put it into a fund and then 1% of GDP was added to that fund every year. It was always with the idea of having a fund that would assist the State in dealing with the cost of the population ageing. Of course, that money went during the great crisis----- "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"(Interruptions)."},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Alan Barrett","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Alan Barrett  Indeed, but it was a very worthwhile policy at the time, so we have done this previously. We are currently building----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  Was it more a practice rather than having a legal basis? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Alan Barrett","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Alan Barrett  I am always struck when I am before this committee that it was set up in the wake of the great financial crash precisely to keep an eye on some of these sort of issues. I and probably a lot of us on this side of the room do often ask the question: \"In 20 years' time what will have happened to all this windfall?\" We may not be here any more. We may not be drawing in these sorts of extraordinary amounts of money so there is the idea of building up a wealth fund along the lines the Leas-Chathaoirleach just described that would be directed in a particular way, would build up over time and would deal with these sort of issues. In 20 years' time, and maybe some of the members will still be around, the issues will be around the care of our massively larger older population, for example, with a much-diminished workforce. Those are going to be sort of things that we will be talking about, and it will be terribly sad if people are sitting in the members' position saying, \"It is an awful pity that we did not put some of that money aside\". "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  I am all for that, by the way, and reducing the growth. It has been 9% for the last number of years and it is going to go down to 6% or whatever for the next few years, which in my opinion is slightly late. Does Dr. O'Toole want to come in? I want Dr. Mc Donnell to come in and I am conscious of time. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Conor O'Toole","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Conor O'Toole  I want to make one point that is one of the most important aspects to remember on this. The analogy with Norway is a good one. Why did Norway set up their wealth fund on the oil revenues? It was because they knew it was finite. They knew it would not go on forever and they were only going to be able to generate these funds until the particular point in time when that resource was used up. We need to start thinking about these corporation tax receipts in those terms. They will not be around forever. They are going to run out----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  One hundred per cent. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Conor O'Toole","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Conor O'Toole  -----and we need to save as much of them as possible for the future to deal with all of these challenges we have talked about. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Tom McDonnell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Tom McDonnell  Following on from that, I agree with both of those comments. In fact, in terms of the Norway situation, they were conscious that they did not want to spend the money domestically because it would simply add to inflationary pressures and destroy the competitiveness of their economy. That is another rationale for not recycling that money back because a lot of it is not based on what is actually happening in Ireland. As we know, it is to do with the location of intellectual property assets. It is acting as a pump which is adding to inflationary pressures in the economy.  I completely agree with the point that further analysis needs to be done to identify exactly what percentage it is, whether it is \u20ac17 billion or however much. We should not be touching that and should be saving it and pumping it into the Future Ireland Fund or into capital investment. However, the problem with capital investment is that we have a hard constraint in terms of the amount of construction workers we have in the country and the amount of infrastructure we can do on a yearly basis. Some of it could certainly be used to help finance the green transition, subsidies for an electric vehicle fleet, for example, as a once-off transition measure which helps bring down our greenhouse gas emissions, but fundamentally I would be saving most of it and then living off the returns----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  Living off the returns like Norway does. There is something I am interested in that is related to that and Dr. McDonnell mentioned it in his opening remarks. We should be doing five-, ten-, 15-, or 20-year budgets. What does that look like in practice? How can we make it happen to have a longer budgetary cycle? It is completely related to the windfall tax question. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Tom McDonnell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Tom McDonnell  We do exactly what the Leas-Chathaoirleach suggests and push for legislative change to force the government of the day to engage in five-, ten-, 15- or 20-year budgetary forecasting. Ideally, once governments come into power, they would set out their five-year budget and then not necessarily change it from year to year. Things such as cost-of-living or energy crises can obviously affect that, but in terms of those windfall receipts we should not be using that money fecklessly now but holding it and investing it abroad so that we have that return in the 2040s and 2050s, when we have the fiscal crisis that is coming at us head-on. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  I take slight exception to Dr. McDonnell's comment about the basket of goodies. The main tax thing for doing is income tax. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Tom McDonnell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Tom McDonnell  For sure. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  I think that only \u20ac1 billion of it is covered in indexation anyway. The Government will still get in more income tax receipts. Someone referred to higher wage inflation or inflation in the economy. I think that is a reasonable thing to do and that will be the bulk of tax breaks. In fairness, the inheritance tax has been fairly suppressed for 20 years now. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Tom McDonnell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Tom McDonnell  That is true, but what the Commission on Tax and Welfare pointed out was that this was essentially unearned income in the sense that while people will argue that inheritance tax is a double taxation, all tax is double taxation. For example, VAT is when you pay your----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  I know. We could talk all day about that. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Tom McDonnell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Tom McDonnell  We would see that a priority would be a nurse working overtime or something like that who has to pay half----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  Those kind of taxes have not been indexed over the last 20 years. The inheritance tax threshold was higher 20 years ago than it is today. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Tom McDonnell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Tom McDonnell  Sure, but the inheritance tax for business and agricultural assets----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  That is different. That is unique. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Tom McDonnell","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Tom McDonnell  That is already so generous that it puts you into the top 1% of households automatically in terms of the scale of the tax break. Even the \u20ac400,000 as it stands puts you well into the top half of wealth holders, even if nothing else happens. As a final point, it is only a small proportion of people in Ireland who actually end up paying inheritance tax. It is quite a niche issue. We must also remember that where there are multiple children in a family, for example, the pot is divided up and can quite quickly get to very high numbers. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell  I apologise that I missed this. I had a number of clashes at the same time. It is always more difficult to come in when conversations have already been had because obviously it is easier to follow on from a conversation.  I might just take one point that was said about the point of this committee being set up. On this day two weeks, we will have budget day. We are the budget scrutiny committee but tomorrow night we will have the two Ministers in and there is no way they will give us the type of information we need to scrutinise in a pre-budget way. Even for the likes of the existing level of services, they will not even give us the information to be able to find out how that is calculated. That is an issue for this committee because if the Ministers and the Departments are not taking it seriously then we have an issue. In two weeks' time on budget day things will be announced, but at the end of the day we know then that there will be Revised Estimates, etc., and we are nearly told that is the real budget. There is a serious issue for this committee, generally, about how it will work in the future and when generations look back to see how it worked.  There is a bit of theme in some of the opening statements that I find quite interesting; I think it was Social Justice Ireland and NERI. I noted the phrase \"The cost of living crisis is fundamentally an inadequacy of income crisis\" in NERI's opening statement. It is something that I really feel is not talked about enough both in this House and the Seanad, and also in the media. The reality is the number of people who just cannot make ends meet because they are simply not paid adequately.  Another strong theme in here related to what the actual plan is in terms of social welfare. It annoys me in a lot of senses that this place can be so out of touch with the realities of people's lives and that people this out of touch are making decisions about a few extra euro for somebody on social welfare, disability or whatever else it may be, while at the same time passing legislation that increases rent for people. It does not make sense and we know council rents have increased in a lot of places as well.  One of my questions for Social Justice Ireland, and something that really stood out to me, is about the 120,000 aged over 65 who are experiencing poverty. Something I have increasingly noticed in my clinics is older people who are getting notices to quit in insecure housing. Once they retire will not be able to pay the rent and will end up in emergency accommodation and homelessness. At the moment it is generally up to the council to try to stop that happening.  If that trend continues, they will not be able to do that. I ask the witnesses to talk about that. Also, does what is seen as the poverty line include housing or how does that work? It is something I look into every year and then I forget. Will the witnesses from Social Justice Ireland look at that, followed by Mr. Nugent? "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. John McGeady","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. John McGeady  Yes. I will take the second part of the question first. Actually, it was already mentioned. The poverty line we draw upon is that which is set out by the CSO when it comes out with its survey on income and living conditions, SILC, every year. That looks at household income and it is looking at 60% of median household income. It is equivalised then and divided up by person in the house. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell  So there is a problem with it then if that is the way things----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. John McGeady","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. John McGeady  No. What it is showing fundamentally is what people's incomes are and, therefore, what is an adequate income, rather than looking at costs. Whether or not 60% is going to be adequate depends on what costs are, but insofar as it is useful to have some sort of a line that looks at where people are in terms of their incomes relative to one another in society is where it is actually very useful. In some ways it is both a----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell  To see who is wealthy and----- "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. John McGeady","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. John McGeady  Exactly. In some ways it is not only useful as a poverty rate but also as a way of looking at inequality in society. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell  Yes, that is fair. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. John McGeady","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. John McGeady  Fundamentally, while it is absolutely essential we get a handle on material poverty and it is crucial we recognise when people cannot make ends meet, we also need to always recognise that poverty must be understood as not having enough income to live a socially acceptable normal standard of living in our society. If we reduce it simply down to clothes, shelter and heating, we sometimes lose the recognition that if someone cannot participate for want of money because their income is too low, they are in poverty. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell  I will bring Mr. Nugent in on that now because I am conscious of time. I am finding more and more people who, from what I can see, are in poverty, and I do not know if they are all reflected. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Ciar\u00e1n Nugent","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Ciar\u00e1n Nugent  On the living wage technical group, whose report will come out next week or in the next couple of weeks, they go to a supermarket and count up how much a minimum essential standard of living is. Regarding the poverty threshold, earlier on we were talking about the Taoiseach saying 60% of the median income being too high a bar but I think it is way too low. It is way too low compared with the living wage calculation. The poverty threshold for a single adult household is somewhere in the region of \u20ac18,000 or \u20ac19,000 net. That would be different for a pensioner who has paid off the house compared with someone younger. For someone in their 20s, it turns out to be \u20ac450 or \u20ac500 a week. I did some calculations recently, especially on the minimum wage in terms of housing costs, rental costs, independent living and all those things. It is a much lower threshold which has no relationship to the cost of living. The consistent poverty rate is another way to bring that rate down.  Today, our colleague, Dr. Lisa Wilson, produced a paper yesterday from a Working in Ireland Survey that was conducted last year, and about a third of workers are under this minimum essential standard of living. It is an hourly rate but it is based on full-time workers. We can calculate these things over the cost of rent and people facing this with no earnings. Sometimes the lived experience of individual members of the family are obscured at the household level, so more and more young adults are living at home, etc., because they do not have the income to pay rent. They are still at home, and yet their incomes and their poverty rates are lower because of the fact that they are still at home. I would say it is much lower. The living wage is about \u20ac30,000 a year gross and the at-risk-of-poverty rate that we use as an arbitrary line, and it is not a poverty line but an income inequality line, is not really capturing what most social scientists understand as poverty. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Mair\u00e9ad Farrell","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","memberCode":"Mair\u00e9ad-Farrell.D.2020-02-08","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Mair\u00e9ad Farrell  Are the witnesses noticing that an awful lot more pensioners are falling into the bracket if they do not have the secure housing? We have always talked about pensioners having their mortgage paid off but we are seeing, as I am sure the witnesses are too, increasing numbers of pensioners who do not have that and who are in dire situations. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Mr. Ciar\u00e1n Nugent","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Mr. Ciar\u00e1n Nugent  Obviously, not every pensioner has a house paid off. Over the past 20 years it is the case that deprivation for over-65s has fallen while it has increased for younger adult households and children. In or around 10% of all those who are materially deprived are over 65. In a cost-of-living crisis, if they have low incomes, their pensions are not going to go so far, especially if they are in the rental sector. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett  I thank the witnesses from Social Justice Ireland because I did not get to ask them a question but I agree with the general trajectory of what they have been saying. A lot of their stuff will be in there. We may go a little bit further in some areas but I agree with the trajectory. I refer to the targeted thing, and this relates to some of the stuff from the ESRI. If we talk about what is coming in to our clinics, while we agree with the witnesses that we have to lift everybody out of poverty, raise the rates and target the people who are really suffering, a thing I am getting all of the time is people who are angry. There is enormous anger from people who are just over those thresholds. These are not rich people. To be honest, it is causing quite bitter division between working-class people. You are 13 years on a housing list and, all of a sudden, all those 13 years are gone, your income is too high and you get nothing. This, to my mind, is the argument for universality and catching the rich, the multimillionaires and the people on the very high incomes over \u20ac100,000 through taxes, the wealth tax and all the rest of it, rather than what often turns out to be this division between the people who are the poorest one third and the people just above them. I would like some comment on that. There is a big problem with these cliff edges and there is also surely a question about the administration. Have we really done a cost-benefit analysis? The amount of time I spend dealing with Departments on the question of means testing is unbelievable. You are fighting with Departments because somebody is just over some means test threshold, and these are not rich people. Then I think about the multimillionaires and the huge profits being recorded and I wonder why so much energy is being directed at trying to ascertain if somebody is above or below a threshold rather than a bit of energy being directed at the multimillionaires and the big corporates. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Ms Michelle Murphy","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Ms Michelle Murphy  When the Deputy mentioned the division and the impact on social cohesion of people above and below thresholds, it goes back to Deputy Timmins's point. We do not index the thresholds either. We do not index welfare payments. We also do not index the thresholds to movement. The last time any of those thresholds were amended was over 12 years ago. When you look at what has happened since, that is something we need to look at. I mentioned the tapering and cliff edges. I am conscious of time so I will let others come in. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Conor O'Toole","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Conor O'Toole  Deputy Boyd Barrett and I may have had a discussion on this at a previous iteration of this committee.  It is always tricky to pick a threshold. Whenever a threshold is chosen to target a policy, someone will always fall just on the far side of it and it is difficult to design policies where those kinds of edges are removed. The best way to do it, and this is a point I made previously, is for people to make sure when designing a policy that they have good data to understand what proportion of households or enterprises being targeted, for example, fall either side of that threshold. The threshold can then be moved around depending on how many data points fall into it. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett  That is one way to approach it, but does a cost-benefit analysis not at least have to be done, and perhaps this is something for the committee to look at, between that and universality as a cheaper, more efficient way to do it? People can then be caught another way. Income taxes and, potentially, if we design them properly, wealth taxes might be easier to administer and would deal with the problem Dr. O'Toole wants to deal with. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  Or stepped thresholds could be used in certain cases. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":" Dr. Alan Barrett","uri":null,"memberCode":null,"role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Dr. Alan Barrett  I have a lot of sympathy for the Deputy's point, but I will add something to the cost-benefit analysis. The problem if everything is universal is that the State will become a lot bigger and a lot more expensive, which might be fine, but then a lot of taxes have to be loaded to get all that revenue. I think we all agree that, at a certain point, taxes can start having a negative effect on the economy, if things are really being distorted and work and investment incentives are being reduced. I agree with the point about cost-benefit analysis, but one of the costs has to be around what level of taxation would be needed.  There are parallel arguments around basic income. People have said for many years that the State should primarily provide a basic income, which would be collected with tax, but it tends to break down on the taxation issue. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Richard Boyd Barrett","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","memberCode":"Richard-Boyd-Barrett.D.2011-03-09","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett  I thank all the witnesses. "},{"speaker":{"showAs":"Edward Timmins","uri":"https:\/\/data.oireachtas.ie\/ie\/oireachtas\/member\/id\/Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","memberCode":"Edward-Timmins.D.2024-11-29","role":null},"textType":"speech","text":" An Leas-Chathaoirleach  I thank all the witnesses for attending our meeting. "},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"Cuireadh an comhchoiste ar athl\u00f3 ar 5.12 p.m. go dt\u00ed 6.30 p.m., D\u00e9 C\u00e9adaoin, an 23 Me\u00e1n F\u00f3mhair 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"summary","text":"The joint committee adjourned at 5.12 p.m. until 6.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 23 September 2026."},{"speaker":null,"textType":"heading","text":"Pre-Budget 2027 Engagement (Resumed)"}]}}]},"contextDate":"2026-09-22"}]}